The renewable energy changes and policy

DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Probably almost all capitalization. Once the capital equipment is amortized, expect it to drop below real. (fistpump)

www.nikkoindustries.com

How Expensive Is 3D Printed Meat?

Additive manufacturing, also referred to as three-dimensional (3D) printing is a rapidly evolving industry that has greatly benefitted the food production industry. Some of these benefits include the capacity to modify food's nutrition, flavor, and texture and the economic viability of...
www.nikkoindustries.com www.nikkoindustries.com
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It's early days in this industry, but there must be something to it because so many smart people and companies are trying to make it happen. They know the business better than I and they believe it is possible. First a mixture of processed plant protein with cultured cells and then mostly cultured cells of various kinds.

Global demand for meat is rising along with the incomes of many people, big parts of it are no longer the developing world, but are already developed quite a bit. We could never keep up with livestock farming and another way must be found and if it is, for a lower cost, then livestock farming is headed for trouble and maybe fish farms too. The rate of progress in the industry is very fast though and the biotechnology knowledge base is getter deeper everyday with tens of thousands of academic scientists and industry ones pushing the boundaries globally. China is intensely interested, and they might not have any issues with a genetically modified soy plant that produces olive oil for export dirt cheap, or another soy plant that grew most of the milk proteins in one shot and they export the extracted powder etc. The future has many possibilities and potential accelerators.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
It's pretty regular and if it can lay flat on the bottom during storms and to avoid ice and is above all else durable, it might be something we can use. Harnessing wave power is a very hard thing to do, and storms can wreck things pretty fast, the sea under the influence of wind and weather has a lot of power, power to destroy damn near anything. As with all things in harsh conditions with moving parts, maintenance is a consideration and might only be done in summer or during calm weather. If they build it, they had better build it to take a pounding because it surely will.

We have plenty of options for renewable energy generation and storage, it might not all be wind, solar and batteries, the lowest cost per watt usually wins, but when it is generated and how regularly counts too. Harness the waves of the ocean crashing on the shores of the land and you can generate an awful lot of power at a pretty constant rate. Doing it cheaply enough to compete with wind and solar is the problem for them and fossil fuels and it will be more of a problem into the future. These technologies like solar and LFP batteries are scaling up, getting even cheaper and will become entrenched incumbents of the new energy industry.

interestingengineering.com

WaveRoller sea-floor generator is ready for commercial use

Waveroller, an ocean-friendly energy solution that has been in the works for 31 years, is ready to electrify the world with sea-bed-based power generation.
interestingengineering.com interestingengineering.com

31 year old sea-floor generator tech will soon begin commercial operation
The Waveroller is making waves in harnessing reliable and predictable wave power for a sustainable tomorrow.

View attachment 5367699
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NL recently concluded a feasibility study to use tidal waves to power the Wadden islands (our islands in the north). The sea below it, the Waddensea, can be crossed during ebb on foot. Lots of water moving between the islands in/from the North Sea.
ade06c89d47497a9d9e59c1dc2900574_e8e87384a5ce218a3e2d626e16feb84231f87546.png

Looks like we'll be using these extensively tested 'tidal kites' from SeaQurrent:

SeaQurrent successfully closes EUR 4.8M funding round | EIT

SeaQurrent welcomes EIT InnoEnergy, PMH Investments, Invest-NL, the FOM and NOM as its shareholders. Together with the existing shareholders, parties are investing more than EUR 4.8M. We are proud to announce that we have successfully completed this latest financing round.
eit.europa.eu eit.europa.eu

Big plans:
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
If genetically modified plants become a thing, the opinion of America about it might not carry much weight in other countries. American companies would go there to do their growing and work, without bothering with the department of agriculture or FDA. They could export the products made by those plants though, olive oil, milk proteins or whatever. That would drive those doing yeast fermentation out of business at a stroke with lower costs of production. It might be a way around American restriction on bioengineered plants, whey protein is the same no matter it's source. Other countries have different out looks and needs, and the values of Americans might not matter much to them.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
This is big and gonna be yuuge. Looks like a stock pick to me!
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The thing is, the possibilities of biotechnology are as immense as life itself and something can come out of left field and take you out pretty fast. It doesn't have the constraints of a technology like microprocessors. As I said, if you make milk proteins using yeast, there might be plants that can do the same and they are just fueled by dirt and sunlight, high levels of automation are used in their production and harvesting.

Investing in biotech is riskier than investing in batteries and that is a crap shoot.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Better if they start with big subsidies for electric tractors and covering their barns with solar panels, electrify them first, and make their energy costs zero, it's a start. We might reduce livestock agriculture and dairy using technology anyway and those who grow crops can do it more sustainably. With free energy and a robot tractor, it doesn't cost as much to fertilize the land organically and use other sustainable practices. Market forces and technology in the near future might also have an impact.


EU eases farming demands in new climate proposal | DW News

The EU has dropped a key part of its 2040 proposal requiring agricultural emissions to be cut by 30 percent. The move comes as Spanish farmers staged protests across the country, using tractors to block roads in some areas. They're joining farmers in Germany, France and other European countries who have held similar protests in recent weeks. Farmers are angry about rising costs, high levels of bureaucracy and competition from non-EU nations.
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
There are industry predictions and price announcements however and $56kWh would change the game on EV pricing and make EVs cheaper than the alternative by a significant amount. That price is in China this June, but they are selling the factories and expertise in how to build them, if they can't sell the batteries, they will sell the equipment, factories and even train the staff.
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The industry announcement that every website seems to reference is this:
cnevpost.com

Battery price war: CATL, BYD pushing battery costs down further

The price war for power batteries is intensifying, with the world's two largest battery makers reportedly pushing battery costs down further.
cnevpost.com cnevpost.com

The cells, which offer better performance without a price increase, are aimed at battery electric vehicles (BEVs) that sell for between 100,000 yuan ($13,900) and 200,000 yuan, the report said, citing an unnamed industry source.
Several automakers will switch to the CATL cell in mid-2024 at a price not exceeding RMB 0.4/Wh, according to the report.
"From the upstream layout and the resource reserve of the material system, only CATL can make 2C batteries lower to a price point at the moment," the source said.

cnevpost.com

Battery price war: CATL, BYD pushing battery costs down further

The price war for power batteries is intensifying, with the world's two largest battery makers reportedly pushing battery costs down further.
cnevpost.com cnevpost.com

While I tend to be quite skeptical of news that originates from within the Great Firewall, and that final sentence leads me to believe the unnamed industry source may not be the most unbiased. If we ignore that, we still need to address these prices are aimed for BEVs between $14-28K USD, so which cars in N/A are these going into?

Ford has already announced they are scaling back production for that Michigan CATL licensing agreement plant by 40%, and cancelled other plants planned in Kentucky and Turkey.

I believe CN made a post a little while back that the signs of price dumping on solar panels or batteries to prevent competition of industry getting established in other countries, and the more I read about it - I 100% agree. Western democracies cannot allow China to be the sole source for energy, learned from rare earths export ban. Look at how important Gallium is, and China was smart by driving prices so low until they killed refining elsewhere.

I'm getting off track, what I'm hoping to see is any kind of details on how there is no price floor that will be met on any of the tech required to transition to fully renewable energy. I am not all that interested in any pundit claiming prices will keep dropping unless there are details, specifically how base materials are becoming next to free. I've dealt with enough hype men to know that you throw enough shit out there and they are bound to hit something, doesn't mean they have a clue about what they are throwing or what they are throwing at.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
The industry announcement that every website seems to reference is this:
cnevpost.com

Battery price war: CATL, BYD pushing battery costs down further

The price war for power batteries is intensifying, with the world's two largest battery makers reportedly pushing battery costs down further.
cnevpost.com cnevpost.com

The cells, which offer better performance without a price increase, are aimed at battery electric vehicles (BEVs) that sell for between 100,000 yuan ($13,900) and 200,000 yuan, the report said, citing an unnamed industry source.
Several automakers will switch to the CATL cell in mid-2024 at a price not exceeding RMB 0.4/Wh, according to the report.
"From the upstream layout and the resource reserve of the material system, only CATL can make 2C batteries lower to a price point at the moment," the source said.

cnevpost.com

Battery price war: CATL, BYD pushing battery costs down further

The price war for power batteries is intensifying, with the world's two largest battery makers reportedly pushing battery costs down further.
cnevpost.com cnevpost.com

1707285831681.png

1707285869695.png

1707285992223.png

While I tend to be quite skeptical of news that originates from within the Great Firewall, and that final sentence leads me to believe the unnamed industry source may not be the most unbiased. If we ignore that, we still need to address these prices are aimed for BEVs between $14-28K USD, so which cars in N/A are these going into?

Ford has already announced they are scaling back production for that Michigan CATL licensing agreement plant by 40%, and cancelled other plants planned in Kentucky and Turkey.

I believe CN made a post a little while back that the signs of price dumping on solar panels or batteries to prevent competition of industry getting established in other countries, and the more I read about it - I 100% agree. Western democracies cannot allow China to be the sole source for energy, learned from rare earths export ban. Look at how important Gallium is, and China was smart by driving prices so low until they killed refining elsewhere.

I'm getting off track, what I'm hoping to see is any kind of details on how there is no price floor that will be met on any of the tech required to transition to fully renewable energy. I am not all that interested in any pundit claiming prices will keep dropping unless there are details, specifically how base materials are becoming next to free. I've dealt with enough hype men to know that you throw enough shit out there and they are bound to hit something, doesn't mean they have a clue about what they are throwing or what they are throwing at.
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I'm skeptical too, there are many people out there making bullshit claims, but this CATL price by June appears to be a real thing. I can't see why they would hype something like that, usually it's performance or production dates that they hype. These guys are established in the business and have been producing these cells for a while now and BYD also produces their own and they are in competition. That would be the price in China to car makers on volume buys. However, a significant price drop like that will shake up the industry for sure, if they pull it off then EVs will be a lot cheaper than ICE cars.

One of my concerns is that unless they stop rebates for these batteries, they will drive the new battery types out of business before they can scale to compete. They are selling the factories to produce them as turnkey operations in North America and even training staff. I don't expect the transition to EVs to be a smooth linear progression and IMO the batteries are just barely good enough, still weigh too much and wear out tires. There are better prospects out there though, solid state, lithium silicon and lithium sulfur being a few of them. I see a lot of hype in this business and try not to post it, mostly industry publications that focus on renewables and EVs. Examples of what is being sold in China now and for how much etc.

One other point, batteries made in America and Europe will have their own supply chains.
 
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DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
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Well, how else are ya gonna persuade those farmers to go green, they were complaining about costs and a big part of that is fuel and a tractor is a general-purpose machine. Piling regulations that will break them is not the answer, but a start might be electrifying agriculture for much of Europe with the governments helping farmers. The idea is to reduce emissions in the sector, this would be a start and when you electrify a vehicle, like a tractor or a truck, you eliminate gear shifting and then a robot can drive it around the field while the farmer has coffee.
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I'm skeptical too, there are many people out there making bullshit claims, but this CATL price by June appears to be a real thing. I can't see why they would hype something like that, usually it's performance or production dates that they hype. These guys are established in the business and have been producing these cells for a while now and BYD also produces their own and they are in competition. That would be the price in China to car makers on volume buys. However, a significant price drop like that will shake up the industry for sure, if they pull it off then EVs will be a lot cheaper than ICE cars.

One of my concerns is that unless they stop rebates for these batteries, they will drive the new battery types out of business before they can scale to compete. They are selling the factories to produce them as turnkey operations in North America and even training staff. I don't expect the transition to EVs to be a smooth linear progression and IMO the batteries are just barely good enough, still weigh too much and wear out tires. There are better prospects out there though, solid state, lithium silicon and lithium sulfur being a few of them. I see a lot of hype in this business and try not to post it, mostly industry publications that focus on renewables and EVs. Examples of what is being sold in China now and for how much etc.

One other point, batteries made in America and Europe will have their own supply chains.
Click to expand...
My thoughts are CATL and BYD are not producing batteries at that price point, they are only able to sell at that price because of the CCP. They are price dumping to establish market dominance, exactly what they did with Gallium.
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Well, how else are ya gonna persuade those farmers to go green, they were complaining about costs and a big part of that is fuel and a tractor is a general-purpose machine. Piling regulations that will break them is not the answer, but a start might be electrifying agriculture for much of Europe with the governments helping farmers. The idea is to reduce emissions in the sector, this would be a start and when you electrify a vehicle, like a tractor or a truck, you eliminate gear shifting and then a robot can drive it around the field while the farmer has coffee.
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I'll just say there is no free energy, someone has to pay for all the components to create usable energy, doesn't matter if it's not the farmer - it's not free.

Just had to giggle about the robots, always pushing the robots, eh?
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
I'll just say there is no free energy, someone has to pay for all the components to create usable energy, doesn't matter if it's not the farmer - it's not free.

Just had to giggle about the robots, always pushing the robots, eh?
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It is free after the capital costs are covered and payback time depends on power rates and usage, net metering rates too and since farmers can produce a lot they won't be using, they might get a special deal and get paid for the power they bank. Self-driving tractors have been a thing for a while, they put local transmitters around to enhance GPS accuracy or used to, labor is another expense they can cut.
 
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CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
It is free after the capital costs are covered and payback time depends on power rates and usage, net metering rates too and since farmers can produce a lot they won't be using, they might get a special deal and get paid for the power they bank. Self-driving tractors have been a thing for a while, they put local transmitters around to enhance GPS accuracy or used to, labor is another expense they can cut.
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Okay, you win. It’ll be the first maintenance free power source and farm - cheapest produce available I figure.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
Okay, you win. It’ll be the first maintenance free power source and farm - cheapest produce available I figure.
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I don't look at it in terms of winning and losing, it's just interesting to me, normal people quibble about the details and interpretation, but not on facts. The future is wide open however and nobody knows how it will turn out, we only have trends, indications and government policy to go by. For most countries that have no oil, this is the policy they will adopt for economic reasons, climate change aside. Economics are a predictive force and if it is cheaper and just as good, it usually wins.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
This is pretty clever — a way to use green energy to make steel while detoxifying a major waste stream.

In the long run, finding green ways to close open industrial processes will build toward a crucial capability: making and keeping closed life-support facilities in deep space.

newatlas.com

Researchers create green steel from toxic red mud in 10 minutes

Researchers have devised an economically viable way of reducing the environmental impact of both the steel and aluminum industries by using hydrogen to melt down the toxic red mud left over from aluminum production to produce green steel in around 10 minutes.
newatlas.com newatlas.com
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Better if they start with big subsidies for electric tractors and covering their barns with solar panels, electrify them first, and make their energy costs zero, it's a start.
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Already over 33% of EU budget goes to agricultural subsidies. Which isn’t about feeding people but making profits. More subsidies for farmers is what we call cursing in a church, big no-no. Rather give those to steel factories or chemical industries, at least they create products we need. The effing cunt farmers will have to adjust just like anyone else. If they can’t run a viable or profitable 21st century business, someone else can.

Don’t know about Spain but rarely see a barn in Belgium, NL, Germany that’s not covered already with solar panels.
 
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