Governor Abbott's Tent City

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Your assessment that there are many different factors behind homelessness in the US is pretty good. (Unlike some people whose confident opinions are best explained by the Dunning-Kruger effect). I don't see how you solution differs from prison. Compounds that remove people who don't have a home to remote areas for their own good feels to me to be more like a dystopian cautionary tale than a workable solution to me.

Rather than jump to my own suggestion for a solution, I'd rather listen to people who have experience with proven solutions, such as these people:

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Since modern homelessness began more than thirty years ago, research and experience have overwhelmingly shown that investments in permanent housing are extraordinarily effective in reducing homelessness — as well as being cost-effective.

They have decades of experience and data showing that getting an unhoused person in housing is not only cost effective but give people a chance to recover from the trauma of living on the streets. Follow-through with services such as you suggest is also necessary. The objective is to help people heal and move into a life that is better for them.

But assisted housing is a treatment and not a cure to modern homelessness.

The fundamental cause of homelessness is the widening housing affordability gap. In New York City, that gap has widened significantly over the past decades, which have seen the loss of hundreds of thousands of units of affordable rental housing. At the same time that housing affordability has worsened, government at every level has cut back on already-inadequate housing assistance for low-income people and has reduced investments in building and preserving affordable housing.

Not just NY City but in most cities, wages have not kept up with cost of housing. It's getting worse, with rampant inflation. I'm not as certain as the Coalition for the Homeless is about rent control as a long term solution to homelessness in the US, so what alternatives are there? That would be a topic for a different thread.

The war on drugs plays a role in the homeless crisis too. People who get a conviction for drug possession on their record will always have a harder time getting a good job than people who don't. This sends some into a downward spiral that leads to loss of income that ends up with loss of housing. Recreational drug use should not be treated as a crime. Drug abuse is a medical problem, not a crime. End the war on drugs.

Finally, don't you sense that economic insecurity is more prevalent today than twenty years ago? As it relates to cost of housing, it has:

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So, I don't think the long term solution will be found by blaming those who are experiencing homelessness.
i'm not blaming people for being homeless, but i've known too many scammers and bullshit artists to not be pretty damn sure that at least 25% of them are worthless fucking bums and any amount of effort put into them is going to be completely wasted. it's still worth it to help the other 75%, but i fully expect that 25% to never change.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Camp Pendleton Marine Base in north San Diego county is - I've been told - one of the largest military installations in the country; I believe it goes all the way to AZ. I have to imagine we could carve out some space to through up dorms/facilities to house individuals with mental health and/or drug issues.

I guess if you want to throw down stipulations/obstacles to the idea, have at it; but would you prefer to have some unstable individual camped out in front of your house?
throwing down stipulations and pointing out possible obstacles is how life works...you just want to stick these people somewhere so you don't have to see them...it doesn't seem to matter to you that there are no facilities to deal with them, and that to supply those facilities may even be impossible at the moment...there is a shortage of mental health workers, as well as medical workers, it might not be possible to hire enough of either to staff these very large facilities you're suggesting...
 

orangejesus

Well-Known Member
1) Federal land, and it has no water or infrastructure
2) I already do.

Suggest a place where I do not have to be tiresome in repeating the disqualifiers.

You won’t find many or possibly any. The good and even decent spots have been taken. There are no vast open spaces that are not that way for a good reason. You’ll have to try again, this time in the real world.

...are you saying the country doesn't have room for any more people?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Camp Pendleton Marine Base in north San Diego county is - I've been told - one of the largest military installations in the country; I believe it goes all the way to AZ. I have to imagine we could carve out some space to through up dorms/facilities to house individuals with mental health and/or drug issues.

I guess if you want to throw down stipulations/obstacles to the idea, have at it; but would you prefer to have some unstable individual camped out in front of your house?
also, post a map of Camp Pendleton that shows it abutting Arizona.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
if you're shooting-up in a public park and using the sidewalk for a bathroom, I could give a fuck if you think you're being sent to prison.
If a person commits a crime, then they should face justice.

So, yeah, arrest, trial, sentence, if the sentence is incarceration, then incarcerate for the sentencing period. That's how it works. The barrier that must be cleared before the US government can deprive a person of their freedom is written into the constitution. I don't think shooting up in public is one that demands time in prison. If you want to incarcerate people for shooting up in public, then get the law changed. Same goes for eliminating in public. Other solutions may be more cost effective and humane, but if you want revenge, then go get it, champ.

Your solution where the unhoused are bussed to prison camps in the desert where they will be "treated humanely" sounds awful to me. Just saying. I will oppose that kind of solution being enacted into law. I hope you don't manage to get people protesting what they consider bad laws bussed to prison camps too. Republikkkans seem to be heading that way.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
show me the qualifying area. Refer to the list I posted earlier.
Dunning Kruger effect. The less one knows, the more confident they are in their knowledge. So, yeah, "Camp Pendleton Marine Base in north San Diego county is - I've been told - one of the largest military installations in the country; I believe it goes all the way to AZ. I have to imagine we could carve out some space to through up dorms/facilities to house individuals with mental health and/or drug issues."

Camp Pendleton's farthest east border is near Temecula, 410 miles from the Arizona border.

I love that phrase "I imagine we could". Dunning would be proud.

And, no, you can't just deprive people of their civil rights for sleeping outside or in their car.
 
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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Dunning Kruger effect. The less one knows, the more confident they are in their knowledge. So, yeah, "Camp Pendleton Marine Base in north San Diego county is - I've been told - one of the largest military installations in the country; I believe it goes all the way to AZ. I have to imagine we could carve out some space to through up dorms/facilities to house individuals with mental health and/or drug issues."

Camp Pendleton's farthest east border is near Temecula, 410 miles from the Arizona border.

I love that phrase "I imagine we could". Dunning would be proud.

And, no, you can't just deprive people of their civil rights for sleeping outside or in their car.
I looked it up. East of the border of the federal area there are a coupla national forests, a national monument or two, two sprawling exurbs, a crown-jewel state park, the southern edge of a national park, a sprinkling of reservations and designated wildernesses, the toxic playa of the Salton Sea, a gunnery range, some armored cav proving grounds — and a wildlife preserve in a pear tree before I run out of map.

I am forced to conclude that user did not look into the matter with any depth or (whatever the opposite of the apathy that drives ignorance is).

Add that I am pretty protective of the residual wilderness around this my desert home, and I end up rejecting the idea. All imo.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
No one's sure what they cost to end homeless would be. There's a $20 billion number that's been thrown around, but it's an old estimate and isn't accurate. We can make some estimates on the current cost however. It's estimated that each homeless person costs taxpayers around $35k a year. If you multiply that by the estimated 550k homeless people in the US, that comes out to $19.25 billion a year. Once you divide it by 150k US taxpayers, it comes out to just shy of $130/year per taxpayer. I wonder if we all paid another $130/year, could we really solve homelessness? What's the magic number, or is there one. Is this a problem that you can't just throw money at and fix? How do we address the root and core issues.
 

Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind we've been down this road.

They are of no good or use to any one, nor to themselves. They clutter the earth with their presence, and are better out of the way. Broken by hardship, ill fed, and worse nourished, they are always the first to be struck down by disease, as they are likewise the quickest to die.
—Jack London, The People of the Abyss

https://orangebeanindiana.com/2021/02/09/cruel-charity-and-the-american-poor-farms/
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Keep in mind we've been down this road.

They are of no good or use to any one, nor to themselves. They clutter the earth with their presence, and are better out of the way. Broken by hardship, ill fed, and worse nourished, they are always the first to be struck down by disease, as they are likewise the quickest to die.
—Jack London, The People of the Abyss

https://orangebeanindiana.com/2021/02/09/cruel-charity-and-the-american-poor-farms/
Jack London. They made us read To Build A Fire in school. It gave me bad dreams for years.
 

orangejesus

Well-Known Member
a million apologies for not knowing the exact size of the aforementioned base before I posted; I stand corrected - it's only 125,000 acres, so - yeah - probably no room for some folks that everyone here agrees need assistance. that said, having driven through portions of the base at 25 mph it seems like it might go to DC

that said, other than focusing on my admitted lack of geography (sorry - I'm sure that's not the correct term either) and using quaint terms for cognitive bias, do any of YOU have a workable solution?
 

orangejesus

Well-Known Member
throwing down stipulations and pointing out possible obstacles is how life works...you just want to stick these people somewhere so you don't have to see them...it doesn't seem to matter to you that there are no facilities to deal with them, and that to supply those facilities may even be impossible at the moment...there is a shortage of mental health workers, as well as medical workers, it might not be possible to hire enough of either to staff these very large facilities you're suggesting...
Do you have a solution? Or are you fine with current homeless situation in Portland and other areas?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
a million apologies for not knowing the exact size of the aforementioned base before I posted; I stand corrected - it's only 125,000 acres, so - yeah - probably no room for some folks that everyone here agrees need assistance. that said, having driven through portions of the base at 25 mph it seems like it might go to DC

that said, other than focusing on my admitted lack of geography (sorry - I'm sure that's not the correct term either) and using quaint terms for cognitive bias, do any of YOU have a workable solution?
I posted a couple of solutions earlier that don't call for incarcerating people for being unhoused. I'm not going to post them again. Go back and find them if you want.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Do you have a solution? Or are you fine with current homeless situation in Portland and other areas?
Not having a magic solution in my hip pocket doesn't mean i'm fine with the situation in Portland, or anywhere else.
There is no tomorrow solution, there is only working on the problem. You have to expand treatment, affordable housing, public transportation, you need the local and state government to get involved, in a positive way, to expand work opportunities, to expand affordable child care.
Those who are actually a danger to themselves and/or others need to be placed in some kind of facility where they can be kept from doing any damage...Of course, the Reagan administration shut down most of the state mental hospitals in the country...opening a few of those up, with good staff would help.
 
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