Governor Abbott's Tent City

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
It’s the seamy side of a libertarian ethos. The freedom to pursue my ambition often equates to the freedom to ignore or even deride your misfortune.

oh, and to defund even basic mercy programs.

I heard it said once that if you are young and not a leftist, you have no heart. If you are old and have not become conservative, you have no brain.

Despite that, my trajectory has been the opposite. That says something about the aphorism, my nature, or both.
I've always been a contradiction, not fitting into either camp worth a shit...I'm a conservative liberal? Or a liberal conservative...¿
I've become more liberal as i've gotten older. I think you can see the truth a little better as you get too fucking old to do much about it anymore. But I still have some pretty conservative ideas about some things, like the treatment of homeless people. They need to be gotten off of the streets, and into to some kind of treatment, but there will always be those who will avoid treatments, and those who will not respond to it...And i would just put them away for life, in a humane place, for their safety and the safety of those around them.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I've always been a contradiction, not fitting into either camp worth a shit...I'm a conservative liberal? Or a liberal conservative...¿
I've become more liberal as i've gotten older. I think you can see the truth a little better as you get too fucking old to do much about it anymore. But I still have some pretty conservative ideas about some things, like the treatment of homeless people. They need to be gotten off of the streets, and into to some kind of treatment, but there will always be those who will avoid treatments, and those who will not respond to it...And i would just put them away for life, in a humane place, for their safety and the safety of those around them.
My sentiments run in pretty much the same direction. But whenever I ponder implementation, the sheer cussedness of human nature keeps throwing “but then” consequences into all my maybe-ideas, my sand castles of the mind, dropping me back to square 1.

I guess that is why far better minds than mine have not arrived at a serviceable and durable policy aimed at such things.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
I've always been a contradiction, not fitting into either camp worth a shit...I'm a conservative liberal? Or a liberal conservative...¿
I've become more liberal as i've gotten older. I think you can see the truth a little better as you get too fucking old to do much about it anymore. But I still have some pretty conservative ideas about some things, like the treatment of homeless people. They need to be gotten off of the streets, and into to some kind of treatment, but there will always be those who will avoid treatments, and those who will not respond to it...And i would just put them away for life, in a humane place, for their safety and the safety of those around them.
I'm a man without a party as far as politics go. I have views that span the political spectrum. None of them as extreme as some from either side of the isle. Because of that I get called a leftist by those on the right and a fascist by those on the left. If you don't tow the line 100% neither side wants you around except on election day when both sides are scrambling for us Independents that decide elections.


This snippet from this song sums it up.

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am stuck in the middle with you


 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
it's not just the nimby aspect, where would you place such a place regardless of internecine politics? the homeless seem to be everywhere, but it's not like they have their own interstate bus system...how are homeless people in Alaska, Florida, California, and Michigan all going to end up in the same place?
It would need to be a local community up federal program. Local governments and shelters could help organize the transportation as they know who they have that is heading there. The logistic would be pretty easy to solve, and some heavy lifting at the beginning to mobilize what 553,000 people who are estimated being homeless. Maybe even have several federal regional sites to house them.



I'm a man without a party as far as politics go. I have views that span the political spectrum. None of them as extreme as some from either side of the isle. Because of that I get called a leftist by those on the right and a fascist by those on the left. If you don't tow the line 100% neither side wants you around except on election day when both sides are scrambling for us Independents that decide elections.


This snippet from this song sums it up.

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am stuck in the middle with you


Anyone not completely brainwashed into any extreme gets called that. That is just the nature of the attack our nation is under. The trick is to remember it is being programmed by the same mega wealthy dick heads who want to continue to not pay taxes for another generation.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I'm a man without a party as far as politics go. I have views that span the political spectrum. None of them as extreme as some from either side of the isle. Because of that I get called a leftist by those on the right and a fascist by those on the left. If you don't tow the line 100% neither side wants you around except on election day when both sides are scrambling for us Independents that decide elections.


This snippet from this song sums it up.

Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am stuck in the middle with you


that song always makes me think of this guy.

 

orangejesus

Well-Known Member
it's not just the nimby aspect, where would you place such a place regardless of internecine politics? the homeless seem to be everywhere, but it's not like they have their own interstate bus system...how are homeless people in Alaska, Florida, California, and Michigan all going to end up in the same place?
if various government entities can transport illegal aliens to other states - or from Martha's Vineyard to a nearby military installation - it shouldn't be that hard to relocate unhoused individuals to one of the many, many areas in the country with vast open space.

again, the solutions are there - our society just needs the will to enact them
 

Fallguy111

Well-Known Member
If there's money in it I think a solution would be found quickly. We could corral the homeless onto farms where their housed, clothed and fed as long as they work on the farm. We just need to come up with a better word then slavery.
 

orangejesus

Well-Known Member
If there's money in it I think a solution would be found quickly. We could corral the homeless onto farms where their housed, clothed and fed as long as they work on the farm. We just need to come up with a better word then slavery.
as I mentioned above, those too ill would be taken care of; those strung out on drugs would be able to complete recovery; those who are simply down on their luck would be housed/clothed/fed and given the opportunity to earn money by working in the cafeteria, maintenance services, etc.
if someone is gainfully employed - but unable to afford housing - give them a room and access to services (laundry, etc.) and allow them to commute to/from work, or - if able to work remote - give them a quiet room and an internet connection. if there is a family, ensure adequate lodging is available, as well as educational services.

callous as it sounds, folks with few options may need to access the options offered; if you want to be a part of a society, you need to adhere to some rules of society - like not taking a shit on the sidewalk. much like driving while drunk, if you cannot follow the rules you may see your options limited; that said, keep in mind that - as forceful as this may appear - the goal would be treatment/recovery/empowerment.
 

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
If there's money in it I think a solution would be found quickly. We could corral the homeless onto farms where their housed, clothed and fed as long as they work on the farm. We just need to come up with a better word then slavery.
The right to work state
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
if various government entities can transport illegal aliens to other states - or from Martha's Vineyard to a nearby military installation - it shouldn't be that hard to relocate unhoused individuals to one of the many, many areas in the country with vast open space.

again, the solutions are there - our society just needs the will to enact them
Suggest a few specific locations, each of which

-is not wilderness (there is too little of that already) or sensitive environment
-is accessible and habitable (that excludes mountains, marshes and desert)
-is not Federal land or parkland
-is not arable, ranchable or otherwise productive
-is not someone’s private property
-is close enough to diverse employment
-is served by public transportation to and from the jobs
-has water, sewer and electric

among these vast open spaces where you think people might be relocated.
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
As someone with extended family that has been - still is? no longer have contact with them due to drug use and other issues - homeless, I feel compelled to chime in here.
Someone above stated someone else 'just doesn't like unhoused people,' and I must say - neither do I.
Why? Regardless of the circumstances that brought them to that situation, the same problems tend to follow them.
In San Diego local government has pushed homeless out of the downtown area into the surrounding suburbs; given the abundance of unbuildable open space, unattended campfires are a real concern.
Even those unaffected by drugs or mental illness can still be problematic; I would probably care less if you slept in your car in my neighborhood - or anywhere for that matter - if you didn't throw your trash out the window on to the curb, or used the bushes as your personal toilet.

Our country could solve the homeless problem, but - to paraphrase Colonel Kurtz - we lack the will.
The consensus seems that the homeless could be broken down into a few groups: those with mental health issues, those with drug issues, those with both, and those that are legitimately down on their luck (homeless, but employed) and want assistance - and are willing to put in the effort.

If you're homeless with mental health issues (with/without drugs), living on the street doesn't help anyone; these people need to be domiciled somewhere where their health needs to can be met. If they need long-term, continuous care I'm all for tax dollars paying for it - but it needs to be productive. Do I think a potentially dangerous homeless schizophrenic should be housed against their will? Absolutely. If you do not, I'm sure we'd all like to hear your rational.

If you're homeless with drug issues, living in the streets doesn't help anyone; whether or not it directly leads to mental health issues I'll let others debate, but hopefully we can agree that a hard-core heroine/meth user isn't someone any of us would like camped out on the sidewalk in front of our home - and if you don't have an issue with that, I'd very much like to hear your rational (and ask if you have one currently?). These people need to be domiciled as well. If you're homeless, jobless, and a steady drug user I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe you're also involved with criminal activity - which, again, doesn't benefit anyone and is something I don't think any of want in our neighborhood. Do I think a homeless meth addict should be housed against their will? Absolutely.

If you're homeless without these issues - regardless of whether you have employment - you should be given an opportunity to improve your situation, as it not only benefits you but also society. That said, beggars can't be choosers - and, in my opinion, if you're making use of tax funds to improve your station, there may be some stings attached. And while these folks may not be a danger, it benefit everyone to ensure they're domiciled (I don't think anyone wants to sleep in a Civic, and I'm tired of finding trash on the curb).

This country has an abundance of open land, though - unfortunately - it may not be near the coast or have the best weather. A development consisting of dormitories, medical services, educational services, entertainment (though probably no bars/clubs), etc. could be established. Those with mental health issues would have a safe, contained place in which to get better - access to doctors and medication, and someone to ensure they adhere to treatment. Those with drug issues would have a similar place in which to get clean. The 'working homeless' - or whatever term you like - could have a permanent, safe place in which to get back on their feet. Employment within the development - for those without drug/health issues, but no job - could be had (maintenance or landscape services, administration, perhaps working in the dorm cafeteria) - with the goal of eventually moving to permanent housing in a conventional neighborhood. Those with drug issues, once clean, could be employed in similar fashion - also with the goal of permanent housing/employment on the outside. Those with mental health issues, once better, could embark on a similar journey.

Let's be honest, no one wants a filthy tweaker taking a shit on the curb or leaving needles in the school playground; likewise, I'm sure we're in agreement that these people need help. If you're unable to be a productive, contributing, and SAFE member of society, perhaps society isn't the place for you at this time. What is outlined above could serve as a roadmap to a better life for some, and a significant improvement for many others.

I don't have a problem with helping people in need, but there needs to be results; I've long stated I have no problem with tax funds going to EBT as long as it cannot be used for soda/junk food... I don't want to pay for crap food if it means I'll be paying - through medicare/etc. - for your related health issues later on.
Your assessment that there are many different factors behind homelessness in the US is pretty good. (Unlike some people whose confident opinions are best explained by the Dunning-Kruger effect). I don't see how you solution differs from prison. Compounds that remove people who don't have a home to remote areas for their own good feels to me to be more like a dystopian cautionary tale than a workable solution to me.

Rather than jump to my own suggestion for a solution, I'd rather listen to people who have experience with proven solutions, such as these people:

.

Since modern homelessness began more than thirty years ago, research and experience have overwhelmingly shown that investments in permanent housing are extraordinarily effective in reducing homelessness — as well as being cost-effective.

They have decades of experience and data showing that getting an unhoused person in housing is not only cost effective but give people a chance to recover from the trauma of living on the streets. Follow-through with services such as you suggest is also necessary. The objective is to help people heal and move into a life that is better for them.

But assisted housing is a treatment and not a cure to modern homelessness.

The fundamental cause of homelessness is the widening housing affordability gap. In New York City, that gap has widened significantly over the past decades, which have seen the loss of hundreds of thousands of units of affordable rental housing. At the same time that housing affordability has worsened, government at every level has cut back on already-inadequate housing assistance for low-income people and has reduced investments in building and preserving affordable housing.

Not just NY City but in most cities, wages have not kept up with cost of housing. It's getting worse, with rampant inflation. I'm not as certain as the Coalition for the Homeless is about rent control as a long term solution to homelessness in the US, so what alternatives are there? That would be a topic for a different thread.

The war on drugs plays a role in the homeless crisis too. People who get a conviction for drug possession on their record will always have a harder time getting a good job than people who don't. This sends some into a downward spiral that leads to loss of income that ends up with loss of housing. Recreational drug use should not be treated as a crime. Drug abuse is a medical problem, not a crime. End the war on drugs.

Finally, don't you sense that economic insecurity is more prevalent today than twenty years ago? As it relates to cost of housing, it has:

1666467440965.png

So, I don't think the long term solution will be found by blaming those who are experiencing homelessness.
 

GreenhouseGreen

Well-Known Member
Ketamine is no joke. I remember the last time I took a little bump, I got stuck in the hole before I could get into the party, talking to the ceiling of my car for three hours. Had a whole on conversation about life with the reflection in my t-tops.

Last time I seen it (definitely don't go looking these days), was a few years ago, after the paramedics arrived to shoot it up in my bro, who just double compound fractured his leg on his new motorcycle track jump. He started laughing and joking around with all the firefighters, EMTs, cops, and I don't even remember how many different kinds of people and vehicles showed up, as he got hauled away on a stretcher.

It was getting dark, and they even accidentally left the liquid ketamine syringe laying in a pile by some gloves, that I found the next day ( along with some other wrappers that I crushed up and put in the trash).

I'm guessing they use it a lot for trauma type emergencies, not just on animals.
Due to ketamine's safety profile, it is even administered to children. IM'd K is pretty versatile and relatively safe.

As far as recreational use, I fall in the category of those who love it. For a while I was going through about an ounce/month. I haven't touched it in about 6 months, though. Regular use fucks up the kidneys and back account.

For many the high is too much or makes them feel crazy. I can confidently say it's popular in today's rave community and I know my dad danced with K while a part of the rave community in the late 90s and 00s.
 

orangejesus

Well-Known Member
Your assessment that there are many different factors behind homelessness in the US is pretty good. (Unlike some people whose confident opinions are best explained by the Dunning-Kruger effect). I don't see how you solution differs from prison. Compounds that remove people who don't have a home to remote areas for their own good feels to me to be more like a dystopian cautionary tale than a workable solution to me.

Rather than jump to my own suggestion for a solution, I'd rather listen to people who have experience with proven solutions, such as these people:

.

Since modern homelessness began more than thirty years ago, research and experience have overwhelmingly shown that investments in permanent housing are extraordinarily effective in reducing homelessness — as well as being cost-effective.

They have decades of experience and data showing that getting an unhoused person in housing is not only cost effective but give people a chance to recover from the trauma of living on the streets. Follow-through with services such as you suggest is also necessary. The objective is to help people heal and move into a life that is better for them.

But assisted housing is a treatment and not a cure to modern homelessness.

The fundamental cause of homelessness is the widening housing affordability gap. In New York City, that gap has widened significantly over the past decades, which have seen the loss of hundreds of thousands of units of affordable rental housing. At the same time that housing affordability has worsened, government at every level has cut back on already-inadequate housing assistance for low-income people and has reduced investments in building and preserving affordable housing.

Not just NY City but in most cities, wages have not kept up with cost of housing. It's getting worse, with rampant inflation. I'm not as certain as the Coalition for the Homeless is about rent control as a long term solution to homelessness in the US, so what alternatives are there? That would be a topic for a different thread.

The war on drugs plays a role in the homeless crisis too. People who get a conviction for drug possession on their record will always have a harder time getting a good job than people who don't. This sends some into a downward spiral that leads to loss of income that ends up with loss of housing. Recreational drug use should not be treated as a crime. Drug abuse is a medical problem, not a crime. End the war on drugs.

Finally, don't you sense that economic insecurity is more prevalent today than twenty years ago? As it relates to cost of housing, it has:

View attachment 5216219

So, I don't think the long term solution will be found by blaming those who are experiencing homelessness.
if you're shooting-up in a public park and using the sidewalk for a bathroom, I could give a fuck if you think you're being sent to prison.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
if various government entities can transport illegal aliens to other states - or from Martha's Vineyard to a nearby military installation - it shouldn't be that hard to relocate unhoused individuals to one of the many, many areas in the country with vast open space.

again, the solutions are there - our society just needs the will to enact them
there's a difference between transporting 50, or even 500, and 550,000.
many of the open areas of the country are open for a reason. and there are no facilities in wide open areas...they would have to build all new infrastructure to support these huge camps, build sewage plants, water processing, distribution centers...there will need to be medical facilities, and one of the tenets of this whole deal is treatment for those that want it, so you're going to need qualified personell to offer that treatment...and all of this for over half a million, on conservative estimates.
then you'll need security, to keep some pissed off locals from fucking with them, and to keep the more disturbed from assaulting their neighbors. you'll need emergency services, an ambulance and fire vehicles for each camp....it shouldn't be that hard to relocate unhoused individuals, but it is...and republicans trying to stop every fucking separate line item will just be the fucking powdered sugar on top of the whole shit cake.
 

orangejesus

Well-Known Member
Suggest a few specific locations, each of which

-is not wilderness (there is too little of that already) or sensitive environment
-is accessible and habitable (that excludes mountains, marshes and desert)
-is not Federal land or parkland
-is not arable, ranchable or otherwise productive
-is not someone’s private property
-is close enough to diverse employment
-is served by public transportation to and from the jobs
-has water, sewer and electric

among these vast open spaces where you think people might be relocated.
Camp Pendleton Marine Base in north San Diego county is - I've been told - one of the largest military installations in the country; I believe it goes all the way to AZ. I have to imagine we could carve out some space to through up dorms/facilities to house individuals with mental health and/or drug issues.

I guess if you want to throw down stipulations/obstacles to the idea, have at it; but would you prefer to have some unstable individual camped out in front of your house?
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
If there's money in it I think a solution would be found quickly. We could corral the homeless onto farms where their housed, clothed and fed as long as they work on the farm. We just need to come up with a better word then slavery.
that would be endentured servitude, and is illegal...
there is no better word for it, there is no good word for it.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Camp Pendleton Marine Base in north San Diego county is - I've been told - one of the largest military installations in the country; I believe it goes all the way to AZ. I have to imagine we could carve out some space to through up dorms/facilities to house individuals with mental health and/or drug issues.

I guess if you want to throw down stipulations/obstacles to the idea, have at it; but would you prefer to have some unstable individual camped out in front of your house?
1) Federal land, and it has no water or infrastructure
2) I already do.

Suggest a place where I do not have to be tiresome in repeating the disqualifiers.

You won’t find many or possibly any. The good and even decent spots have been taken. There are no vast open spaces that are not that way for a good reason. You’ll have to try again, this time in the real world.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
One of the problems is that many of the local city and county governments that are in control of the money are full of incompetent people that don't know how to do anything but get elected. They squander significant amounts of money on consultants, study after study, strategy retreats at fancy destinations, etc... They are loathe to let go of the purse strings and let qualified people take control.

Here's one example of absolute failure by local government to address the homeless and use the resources they have.

Multnomah County which is where the city of Portland is located spent $58 million dollars to build a new jail. That jail was never used which is another story in itself. Anyway, it sat empty for years while local non-profits and other private agencies begged them to use it as a homeless facility. The county leaders gave every excuse you could think of as to why it was not a good idea or it wouldn't work so they sold it for $5 million dollars.

Well now it is being used as a homeless facility funded by private donations and is actually working very well. And the county still won't part with any grant money. It's as if they don't want it to succeed. It's ridiculous.

What needs to happen is the money needs to go to people that know what to do with it. Here in Portland they have done nothing but short sighted temporary fixes for the last decade. They're focused on providing a bed for the night and that's about it. The city and the county have been singing the same song for years and nothing is getting done. Yet they have the money that's needed. More of the money needs to go to private entities that actually provide valuable services and not just a bed for the night or a meal on Thanksgiving and Christmas.


They call this a high barrier shelter but those that actually want to get off the streets need more resources like this than just a place to sleep and then get kicked out in the morning.

"Helping Hands Reentry Outreach Centers was founded by Alan Evans, who was homeless for over 25 years."

The Hope Center serves homeless men, women, and families with children. Participants must be ready to be clean and sober (even if today is day one!), and must not be registered sex offenders of any class since we serve children.


The North Portland facility is what's typically considered a "high-barrier" shelter, where people cannot secure a bed on a walk-in basis; instead, they must be referred by one of the organization's 80 partners. Residents must be clean and sober while living in the facility, follow rules and be accountable for their actions.

Under the Bybee Lakes model, people can stay free for up to 60 days, sometimes longer if they need more time. After that, they're expected to get a job and pay $250 a month for their bed space. Evans said about half of residents have full-time jobs within a mile of the facility.

 
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