A Glenn Beck Thread

[CrackerJax]

You guys have to get with the times.... they are a changin. They have changed. The Chinese hack our systems. They have infiltrated our energy grids. Al Queda used the internet against us with complete anonymity. You have to consider the situation the govt was in after 9/11. As the details started to unfold it was quite clear our complacency was exactly the tipping point needed to harm us.
The idea behind the Patriot act is a good one. The concept is sound. Alterations needed? Sure.... but not scrapping. What will replace it? Less security? No thanks.
The Patriot Act has been around now for 7 years...where's all the abuse? There should be REAMS of it by now if it was THAT flawed.

It's a matter of degrees.

 

[PadawanBater]

You guys have to get with the times.... they are a changin. They have changed. The Chinese hack our systems. They have infiltrated our energy grids. Al Queda used the internet against us with complete anonymity. You have to consider the situation the govt was in after 9/11. As the details started to unfold it was quite clear our complacency was exactly the tipping point needed to harm us.
The idea behind the Patriot act is a good one. The concept is sound. Alterations needed? Sure.... but not scrapping. What will replace it? Less security? No thanks.
The Patriot Act has been around now for 7 years...where's all the abuse? There should be REAMS of it by now if it was THAT flawed.

It's a matter of degrees.

I think I'll take Franklins advice and go with that.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

 

[redivider]

Patriot Act + Average law abiding citizen.... what rights have been taken away again please? List them.... go ahead.

the constitution of the united states of america lists several amendments that list the fundamental human rights of every person in the country, under the bush administration the patriot act was passed.

Fourth Amendment - Search and Seizure.

The patriot act says that the federal and state governments of the people of the united states have the right to tap telephones, intercept mail, among others.

5th ammendment - right against self incrimination and due process

under the bush administration the practice of rendition was adopted. this practice at times took people, some american citizens, or citizens of other countries legally in the US, shipped them to other countries, to bypass this law. they would be tortured to extract information and incriminate themselves. the US has blatantly violated international law and held hostage around 1000 arab males, no trial in sight.... yeah, right....

first amendment - right to assemble.

since the patriot act was enacted the us government has instilled a racial profiling of mostly arab males attending muslim religious services. some of these people have been harrassed and intimidated, in order to break up these assemblies.

it's not whether or not civil liberties have been violated, it's already clear they have... it's how many of them... the US government is a very proud group of ppl, they will deny everything, finger-point, do anything it can to distance itself... the truth is if the purpose of 9-11 was to destroy a piece of this country, it more than exceeded itself...

 

[CrackerJax]

Bush didn't pass the Patriot Act.... Congress did. Let's be clear. All read, all signed off on. Nothing shady except the terrorists.

As for search and seizure. You left out a vital word. Unreasonable. The patriot Act is in tune with the 4th amendment in that regard.

here read this...... I think this prosecutor says it best.....

Reality vs. mythsBy Michael Battle
Since the USA Patriot Act passed with wide, bipartisan support, it has been the target of a campaign of misinformation. The truth is that it preserves civil liberties while helping us keep America safe from terror.
As a federal prosecutor, I have used the act to prosecute a terrorism case in my hometown. In summer 2001, as a U.S. attorney for New York State, I began investigating what turned out to be an active terrorist cell within the USA. Before the law passed, the investigation was hamstrung by a legal "wall" that prevented law enforcement and intelligence officials from sharing information. We had to set up two investigations, and agents from one side could not talk with the other. As a result, we couldn't connect the dots.
Following 9/11, President Bush and Congress recognized that prosecutors and law enforcement didn't have the counterterrorism tools needed to keep the country safe. Congress passed the Patriot Act, and it has been critical in helping us dismantle terrorist cells, disrupt terrorist plots and capture terrorists before they have been able to strike.
One of the most important things the act did was to break down that wall. In my case, our two teams were able to share information and discover that the suspects had attended an al-Qaeda training camp. They had studied firearms, explosives and tactical training, and learned how to detonate hand grenades, Molotov cocktails and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. Then, they came back to America and were living among us. Thanks to this law, the terrorists known as the "Lackawanna Six" are behind bars instead of living in my hometown.
This is only one of many examples of how this law has helped us detect and bring to justice those who would abuse the freedoms that make our nation great. It also strengthened and updated our criminal laws to address new technology. We can now use against terrorists the tools we were already using in drug and violent-crime cases.
Judges and Congress have carefully reviewed our use of these tools, and to date there are no verified civil liberties violations. In fact, the act contains several safeguards specifically designed to protect civil liberties.
This December, 16 key provisions of this law will expire. As Congress debates, I hope it remembers the Lackawanna Six. The threat of terrorism will not expire in December; neither should the tools that keep us safe.
Michael Battle is director of the Justice Department's Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys.

 

[PadawanBater]

Seriously ROFL at this post CrackerJax...

Let's take it piece by piece, shall we?

Congress passed the Patriot Act - Yeah, you're right about that one, but I'm sure even YOU will admit each member of congress who signed off on the bill felt an enormous amount of pressure to pass the act, especially since it was proposed in October 01, the very next month after the attacks, and with Bush himself saying stupid shit like "if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists" - I can assure you, the ones that weren't scared shitless HAD to sign it or face massive criticism from every other member of congress who did, possibly losing their seat the next election.

Before the law passed, the investigation was hamstrung by a legal "wall" that prevented law enforcement and intelligence officials from sharing information.

I'm curious to know what could prevent a cooperating agency from sharing information.. but maybe that's just me?

We had to set up two investigations, and agents from one side could not talk with the other.

What the fuck is this fool talking about?! As if there's rules for communicating between agencies to protect people and convict criminals, I mean seriously man!

Following 9/11, President Bush and Congress recognized that prosecutors and law enforcement didn't have the counterterrorism tools needed to keep the country safe. Congress passed the Patriot Act, and it has been critical in helping us dismantle terrorist cells, disrupt terrorist plots and capture terrorists before they have been able to strike.

Total bullshit. What terrorist cells has the Patriot Act dismantled?

Disrupt terrorist plots and capture terrorists before they strike huh? Capture but not convict seems to be the trademark of the Patriot Act.

One of the most important things the act did was to break down that wall. In my case, our two teams were able to share information and discover that the suspects had attended an al-Qaeda training camp.

Again with this shit. There's no rules outlining what agencies can share what information with any other agency. Show me the fucking rule CrackerJax.

Not to mention this asshat Michael Battle is describing policies that were already in order well before the Patriot Act ever got signed. He's not describing the Patriot Act at all. He's describing pre-existing laws that have nothing to do with the Patriot Act.

They had studied firearms, explosives and tactical training, and learned how to detonate hand grenades, Molotov cocktails and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. Then, they came back to America and were living among us.

Holy shit, guess that makes me and dozens of people I know domestic terrorists!

This is only one of many examples of how this law has helped us detect and bring to justice those who would abuse the freedoms that make our nation great.

Oh boy this one's got some weight!

CrackerJax, this is an open challenge to you personally. With so many examples, as Mr. Battle puts it, I don't think it should be too hard to find me 5 names the Patriot Act is directly responsible for capturing AND convicting, right?

Go!

It also strengthened and updated our criminal laws to address new technology. We can now use against terrorists the tools we were already using in drug and violent-crime cases.

Oh you mean all the illegal domestic spying that Verizon did for the government, then they had to give them immunity from prosecution because they knew they were breaking the fuckin' law. You mean that new technology??

Judges and Congress have carefully reviewed our use of these tools, and to date there are no verified civil liberties violations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/graphics/gonzales_20070710.html

http://www.aclu.org/natsec/emergpowers/14444leg20021206.html

Section 806 of the Act could result in the civil seizure of their assets without a prior hearing, and without them ever being convicted of a crime.

Michael Battle is director of the Justice Department's Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys.

ROFL! Really doesn't surprise me that an asshat from the Justice Dept. is defending the Justice Dept.'s actions...

 

[hanimmal]

I am going to have to side with CJ on this one.

Privacy Invasions. USAPA II dramatically widens the powers of government to invade the privacy of Americans and others living here. This includes:

• Broad new authority to compel information from ISPs, friends, relatives, businesses and others, all without informing you.
• Immunity for businesses that voluntarily turn over your information to law enforcement.
• Extra punishment for use of cryptography-- no connection to terrorism needed.
• Instant police access to your credit reports upon certification that they are sought "in connection with their duties" -- again, with no connection to terrorism needed.
• Relaxed requirement of specificity for warrants for multi-use devices like PDAs and computers with telephonic capabilities.
• DNA collected from all terrorism suspects/DNA database information open to all law enforcement.
• Less judicial oversight of surveillance.

• This is not set up for any criminal activity. It is there to stop terroism. The CIA doesn't care if you are smoking weed. They have too much on their hands to deal with every criminal activity.
• If I am a terrorist, and you inform me that you are going to talk to my freinds, I am gone before you get enough to do anything about it.
• If I own a business and have suspicion that I just sold some bomb making material to a terrorist, I would like to know I can turn it over without being put in jail, let them find out if it is to make a bomb, but I don't want to lose everything because I made a sale.
• No connection needed, but there is suspecting of it. If I suspect you, that is not enough to make a connection, but if you already have the radar up on being a terrorist it is not a bad thing to allow for these searches. Again if they are not busting people for regular crime, but this is all about terrorism not all criminal activities.
• Relaxed requirement, still says some is needed.
• We all know how important PDA and computers are if you are coordinating things, and would be the best thing to use if planning terrorism.
• I would actually like everyone to have to submit DNA and blood samples and finger prints. It may be a scary thing to have your finger prints in a place that a dead body is found, but it may help to get a better idea of what took place. Not only that but it would be good science to have all that data and would finally put to rest forensic speculation. Again less specific oversight does not mean none at all.

Total bullshit. What terrorist cells has the Patriot Act dismantled?

Disrupt terrorist plots and capture terrorists before they strike huh? Capture but not convict seems to be the trademark of the Patriot Act.

FBI Foils Alleged Bomb Attack on Riverdale Jewish Center, Synagogue

July 14, 2004

Patriot Act chalks up 310 arrests

And 179 convictions. You won't be hearing too much about this until after the elections, if ever. From the Washington Times, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:

The USA Patriot Act has helped federal, state and local terrorism investigators arrest 310 persons since the September 11 attacks, 179 of whom have been convicted, and has proved to be "al Qaeda's worst nightmare," the Justice Department said yesterday in a report.

Attorney General John Ashcroft, attempting to dissuade Congress from weakening the act, key provisions of which will expire next year, delivered the 29-page document to the House Judiciary Committee, saying it gave authorities access to new legal tools and technology to "hunt down al Qaeda, destroy their safe haven and save American lives."


"We are a nation at war. ... We have to use every legal weapon available to protect the American people from terrorist attacks," Mr. Ashcroft said at a press conference with Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., Wisconsin Republican.


The report said the act helped secure six guilty pleas from an al Qaeda "sleeper cell" in Lackawanna, N.Y.; allowed the surveillance of a reputed terror cell in Portland, Ore., resulting in convictions of six persons in a scheme to travel to Afghanistan to fight U.S. forces; and the successful prosecution of a money launderer for Colombia's leftist rebel group, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC.
​

Now where I start to question this is how are they prosecuted. Even if they are actual terrorist and not false arrests I think that they should have all the rights as people and be put into the same system. If they are not a flight risk, then they should be allowed to leave until their trial, if they are treat it the same way. Give them bail, everything. Treat them like any American would be treated. If nothing else they would not be able to move on their plans anymore.



I really think that we were too swayed by the news against Bush, just like a lot of people are today being swayed against Obama.

 

[CrackerJax]

TY Han... you did ur homework....

Hey Paddy... (waves) about naming 5 ppl captured because of the Patriot Act.... read my post above you..... the prosecutor named 6 right off the bat for you.... so that's +1.

"Thanks to this law, the terrorists known as the "Lackawanna Six" are behind bars instead of living in my hometown.

Not all of our enemies are offshore. We are a porous nation with very porous borders... too porous.

 

[PadawanBater]

TY Han... you did ur homework....

Hey Paddy... (waves) about naming 5 ppl captured because of the Patriot Act.... read my post above you..... the prosecutor named 6 right off the bat for you.... so that's +1.

"Thanks to this law, the terrorists known as the "Lackawanna Six" are behind bars instead of living in my hometown.

Not all of our enemies are offshore. We are a porous nation with very porous borders... too porous.

How do you know that the Patriot Act is what captured these people? How do you know they don't just say shit like that to keep support? EXACTLY how they say "harsh interrogation techniques work!" "They save American lives" - there's no evidence at all for such claims. Again, same shit when they say "America hasn't been attacked since 911 so obviously all the legislation that's been passed has been successful"... There is no coorelation between any of that shit and the US not having been attacked since 911, they just say there is, without ever showing where specifically their illegal legislation came in and saved the day, when in reality, the day could have been saved regardless. We have the tools to fight terrorists.

We don't need the government to break more laws they themselves created specifically to keep American's civil liberties safe, then tell us they're breaking those same laws that were SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to keep us safe...to...keep us...safe.

I know how scared you are of the terrorists CrackerJax... so this really doesn't surprise me. But me, I couldn't give a fuck less about any terrorists. I'm really not afraid of terrorism. I believe I can protect myself, as we all SHOULD if any terrroist plot were to unfold. We don't need daddy government coming in to protect us, what a bunch of pussies we've become to rely on the government to save us.

I'd rather keep my rights and fend for myself regarding terrorism than have my government spy on me illegally, I know countless people who feel the same way, and again I refer you to Franklins quote, which completely applies to this.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

 

[CrackerJax]

How do you know that the Patriot Act is what captured these people? How do you know they don't just say shit like that to keep support? EXACTLY how they say "harsh interrogation techniques work!" "They save American lives" - there's no evidence at all for such claims. Again, same shit when they say "America hasn't been attacked since 911 so obviously all the legislation that's been passed has been successful"... There is no coorelation between any of that shit and the US not having been attacked since 911, they just say there is, without ever showing where specifically their illegal legislation came in and saved the day, when in reality, the day could have been saved regardless. We have the tools to fight terrorists.

We don't need the government to break more laws they themselves created specifically to keep American's civil liberties safe, then tell us they're breaking those same laws that were SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to keep us safe...to...keep us...safe.

I know how scared you are of the terrorists CrackerJax... so this really doesn't surprise me. But me, I couldn't give a fuck less about any terrorists. I'm really not afraid of terrorism. I believe I can protect myself, as we all SHOULD if any terrroist plot were to unfold. We don't need daddy government coming in to protect us, what a bunch of pussies we've become to rely on the government to save us.

I'd rather keep my rights and fend for myself regarding terrorism than have my government spy on me illegally, I know countless people who feel the same way, and again I refer you to Franklins quote, which completely applies to this.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

I know because the prosecutor right there attributed the Patriot Act to their conviction.... read what he says... carefully.

 

[PadawanBater]

I know because the prosecutor right there attributed the Patriot Act to their conviction.... read what he says... carefully.

Just like how the Bush administration attributed WMD's to Iraq?



And weren't you just ripping on fish for this same exact circular logic in another thread?

 

[CrackerJax]

No, not just like.... that's not how logical ppl derive their opinions. Each upon it's own merit.

 

[MexicanWarlord420]

Matt damon!!!!

 

[PadawanBater]

No, not just like.... that's not how logical ppl derive their opinions. Each upon it's own merit.

Yes, JUST LIKE.

They told you one thing that was a blatant lie and got us into a war that is devistating our country.

They now tell you these laws are there to keep your freedoms secure. But I felt pretty free and secure before the PA was passed, it's useless.

What has the PA given to the legal system that wasn't there before?

-illegal wiretaps on American citizens "suspected of being terrorists" (all it takes to be suspected of terrorism is any minor infraction)

-immunity to criminals blatantly breaking the law

 

[hanimmal]

Not to pile on you Padwan, because usually in this section we end up on the same side, but those have both been around for a long time (immunity, and wire taps) they just have been expanded in order to stop terrorist events.

I personally do not care, and am not afraid of terrorism. But I do see the logic in allowing the government to do what it can to stop it. As long as it stays there. There is enough technology now to track phones and blogs/emails for a certain string of words that would flag the system. Why not use it to the best of our ability to stop things that are going to cause the deaths of innocent people?

I personally don't mind, even with domestic terrorists like the loons that call themselves militia, or abortion clinic bombers, ect, basically all the nutbags that are on those watch websites.

I just say that they should all still have rights of any other citizen.

 

[CrackerJax]

Paddy, you must swim constantly in a circle when you get in the pool...

No one can be trusted unless it already matches ur perspective. I don't have that problem.

Obama has been caught in a hundred lies already. he can't be trusted
Congress lies all the time. they cannot be trusted.
The church lies. they cannot be trusted.
My mom lied to me once. She cannot be trusted.

Name a source that has never made an error. Impossible....

This means you have no sources. By ur own logic applied to me.

 

[PadawanBater]

I don't trust anyone that lies to me.

By the very definition, you're insane if you do.

Making a mistake is understandable. Blatantly lying to your face and expecting people not to notice is not. Big distinction.

Nothing to say about that Franklin quote eh CrackerJax, I've posted it twice already hoping to get something out of you... I hope you realize what the man was trying to tell you and what would happen if you allow governments more authority over civil liberties. If you let them, just like you've been advocating, they WILL take them. So just keep handing over your freedom to the good guys who tell you they'll save you from the scary terrorists if you'll only trust 'em. Just have a little faith...

 

[londonfog]

Not to pile on you Padwan, because usually in this section we end up on the same side, but those have both been around for a long time (immunity, and wire taps) they just have been expanded in order to stop terrorist events.

I personally do not care, and am not afraid of terrorism. But I do see the logic in allowing the government to do what it can to stop it. As long as it stays there. There is enough technology now to track phones and blogs/emails for a certain string of words that would flag the system. Why not use it to the best of our ability to stop things that are going to cause the deaths of innocent people?

I personally don't mind, even with domestic terrorists like the loons that call themselves militia, or abortion clinic bombers, ect, basically all the nutbags that are on those watch websites.

I just say that they should all still have rights of any other citizen.

First off Han Respect...... but on this we disagree...America had enough info prior to 911 to stop any attack. To widen the scope and say we going to even tape American citizens phone to stop terrorism is a sad state..Hmmmmm did Americans run the planes into the Trade center ???? when you start to use terrorism as a reason to invade American citizens privacy you lose me everytime..You are wrong to say that phone companys would just turn over information to the goverment just like that..you had to go thru a whole lot more then you do now to get that info..Now you just say terrorism and boom and you got all calls from tthe last five years just like that...Now I am not saying that this has happen to me, but if I don't say anything about it whats to stop it from...Its funny how people will say we want less goverment in our life but they say the Patriot Act is a good thing...Bush admin had the info with out PA but ignored it ( or was to dumb to put it together) and again I say no American flew a plane into the building so why the hell you tracing our calls...don't get it...hmmmm did they do this when we had the Oklahoma bombing???? Everyone fell for this word "terrorism" and just gave up basic civil rights...by the way terrorism is an act not a person..heck Malcom X was a terrorist in some circles???? If fighting this so call terrorism means me giving up my privacy bring on the terror ( hell could someone please show me what a terroist looks like).. We all got shamed with this PA believe me if someone really wanted to kill themselves to hurt you do you really think you can stop it???? Another big question was not 15 guys on those planes from Saudi..why the hell we didn't fuck with them...Nope Bush had it business as normal with them ...hell even made sure Laden family was protected and safe after the attacks..WTF.... The only terrorism this country has is the one it creates

 

[londonfog]

Paddy, you must swim constantly in a circle when you get in the pool...

No one can be trusted unless it already matches ur perspective. I don't have that problem.

Obama has been caught in a hundred lies already. he can't be trusted
Congress lies all the time. they cannot be trusted.
The church lies. they cannot be trusted.
My mom lied to me once. She cannot be trusted.

Name a source that has never made an error. Impossible....

This means you have no sources. By ur own logic applied to me.

Did Bush lie....???? Did you trust him???? Never hear you speak against him... hell his admin the reason America in the state she in now...or do you disagree

 

[hanimmal]

Yeah no problem man, we can disagree that is why this country is great! I definantly respect peoples opinions, and am willing to change mine because I do like to figure out where the other side of this is.

I used to be VERY opposed to the patriot act.

But at the same time I never really have been upset about profiling and wiretaps, shit like that. Now that does not mean I am cool with people acting on stupid shit, but if it is going to hurt people I am all for intervention.

I used to work at a bar and would always be driving at 3-4 in the morning to go home. And would get pulled over quit often. But I never really got upset about it, because what if I was drunk, then there would be very good reason to do it. If I was not then, no harm no foul, as long as my shit was up to date, I would be on my way.

I have just basically applied this train of thought to what is going on with the patriot act. After reading all the garbage that people where saying about the H1N1 flu shots and quoting the freedoms in the patriot act, I really got a better grasp of this bill, and realize it is all bullshit.

Really the bill is just giving the power to the people on the ground and cutting out all the overhead and redundancy that causes really bad situations to arise.

Like 9-11. They could have possibly shot down a plane (I believe it was the 2nd one) but were paralyzed with red tape. The patriot act just allowed them to circumvent in cases of real emergencies and act on the best judgment. Similar to stopping people from getting off a subway car and leaving even though they may have the plague and killing thousands of people, because they did not get approval from some congressman that needs to be re-elected.


Now that being said, I know that eventually they will start to use it in ways that it was never intended, I know it (even though I have no proof). But at that point we need to be aware and nip it in the butt. Similar to what they did to Oliver North and the rest of the crack dealing CIA people.

But just as I am never going to be paralyzed with fear of terrorists, I am never going to be paralyzed with fear of the american government. As long as I don't have a good reason to, I will not hurt someone on purpose. So there should never be a reason for me to get caught from this, unless it is a bad mistake, and at that point, so be it because I will help them in everything that I can to catch the right person even if that means sitting in a cell for a couple weeks until it is sorted out.

And I think you know I am not for the Iraq war, and do think that was the wrong war for us. Every country at that point was willing to let us set up shop to get the people that did this (with a couple exceptions) and we fucked it up.

 

[londonfog]

Yeah no problem man, we can disagree that is why this country is great! I definantly respect peoples opinions, and am willing to change mine because I do like to figure out where the other side of this is.

I used to be VERY opposed to the patriot act.

But at the same time I never really have been upset about profiling and wiretaps, shit like that. Now that does not mean I am cool with people acting on stupid shit, but if it is going to hurt people I am all for intervention.

I used to work at a bar and would always be driving at 3-4 in the morning to go home. And would get pulled over quit often. But I never really got upset about it, because what if I was drunk, then there would be very good reason to do it. If I was not then, no harm no foul, as long as my shit was up to date, I would be on my way.

I have just basically applied this train of thought to what is going on with the patriot act. After reading all the garbage that people where saying about the H1N1 flu shots and quoting the freedoms in the patriot act, I really got a better grasp of this bill, and realize it is all bullshit.

Really the bill is just giving the power to the people on the ground and cutting out all the overhead and redundancy that causes really bad situations to arise.

Like 9-11. They could have possibly shot down a plane (I believe it was the 2nd one) but were paralyzed with red tape. The patriot act just allowed them to circumvent in cases of real emergencies and act on the best judgment. Similar to stopping people from getting off a subway car and leaving even though they may have the plague and killing thousands of people, because they did not get approval from some congressman that needs to be re-elected.


Now that being said, I know that eventually they will start to use it in ways that it was never intended, I know it (even though I have no proof). But at that point we need to be aware and nip it in the butt. Similar to what they did to Oliver North and the rest of the crack dealing CIA people.

But just as I am never going to be paralyzed with fear of terrorists, I am never going to be paralyzed with fear of the american government. As long as I don't have a good reason to, I will not hurt someone on purpose. So there should never be a reason for me to get caught from this, unless it is a bad mistake, and at that point, so be it because I will help them in everything that I can to catch the right person even if that means sitting in a cell for a couple weeks until it is sorted out.

And I think you know I am not for the Iraq war, and do think that was the wrong war for us. Every country at that point was willing to let us set up shop to get the people that did this (with a couple exceptions) and we fucked it up.

cool cool ..always...... I just don't like Goverment having that kind of power...We could have solved the problem with agencys talking with one another other then the Patriot Act...Even if Bush and Admin never abused it what makes us think the next man won't...but then its to late because you have already given up that right....If Bush and Cheny had listen to the info given by Clinton admin...took the necessary precaution you and I would not be having this discussion....the intel was there....they didn't use it....now we have our liberties violated because of it.....