How a Police IR helicopter functions?

SableZen

SableZen

Well-Known Member
I personally wouldn't use reflective insulation for IR concerns on an entire room. I don't think it would accomplish anything. The exception being if your lights or exhaust are literally right up against a wall or surface that separates indoor from outdoors - then it may be beneficial to throw up some insulation with a high R-value on that one wall or surface so that it stays about the same temperature as other outside walls from the outside. But even then, that's just being on the safe side to deal with a local heat issue - not because it stops IR radiation. Direct IR radiation from your lights won't make it directly through your walls in any case and isn't observable by using an IR camera from outside.

Indirect convection and conduction of heat will make it through, with or without IR reflection, and then turn into IR radiation again... And that is what is observable by IR camera. So pay attention to the overall resistance value of your insulation and not how much IR it reflects.

The reason I went into the whole convection/conduction of heat is that I was trying to point out that direct IR radiation from lights is not of a concern indoors, IR isn't going to make it through a wall - so don't waste money trying to reflect it away. Worry about overall heating to your house and what you do with your exhaust.

So yeah, in your case and with your watts, if you vent to an internal room and let the central A/C keep a handle on the overall temperatures and exhaust for the house - you won't stand out to a FLIR operator (just be aware of heating up any one external wall/surface more than any others)...

Again, just my personal opinion - maybe some other people with real-world experience will chime in...
 
K

katman94

Active Member
SableZen said:
I personally wouldn't use reflective insulation for IR concerns on an entire room. I don't think it would accomplish anything. The exception being if your lights or exhaust are literally right up against a wall or surface that separates indoor from outdoors - then it may be beneficial to throw up some insulation with a high R-value on that one wall or surface so that it stays about the same temperature as other outside walls from the outside. But even then, that's just being on the safe side to deal with a local heat issue - not because it stops IR radiation. Direct IR radiation from your lights won't make it directly through your walls in any case and isn't observable by using an IR camera from outside.

Indirect convection and conduction of heat will make it through, with or without IR reflection, and then turn into IR radiation again... And that is what is observable by IR camera. So pay attention to the overall resistance value of your insulation and not how much IR it reflects.

The reason I went into the whole convection/conduction of heat is that I was trying to point out that direct IR radiation from lights is not of a concern indoors, IR isn't going to make it through a wall - so don't waste money trying to reflect it away. Worry about overall heating to your house and what you do with your exhaust.

So yeah, in your case and with your watts, if you vent to an internal room and let the central A/C keep a handle on the overall temperatures and exhaust for the house - you won't stand out to a FLIR operator (just be aware of heating up any one external wall/surface more than any others)...

Again, just my personal opinion - maybe some other people with real-world experience will chime in...
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Alright man so say If I were to lead the exhaust under my bed and keep the temp in the house 78... while the grow room remains 78 and just have Mylar on the walls I should be cool...

Also the big bulb will be burning during daylight hours, which here it gets up too 90-95 this time of year, so at night there will only be the 250 on for half the night, off by 2 am

All windows will be blacked out and Im gonna insulate there and on the side wall where the exhaust is, smell isn't an issue either, 2 ozone gens...that diesel gets stinky!

sorry for all the questions dudes, I'm sure its just my paranoia, just hearing it from someone else's point of view helps the night sleep a bunch:weed:

Id give rep but im new here, so its probably worthless
 
SableZen

SableZen

Well-Known Member
Yeah, if you keep the house temp within a normal range (aka, within a range the A/C can handle), keep your heat-generating lights spaced away from external walls/windows, and exhaust in an un-obvious way... should be golden. But no reason to hide the exhaust under your bed, sounds like it could get uncomfortable. Do you not have a less used internal room or basement you could exhaust to?
 
K

katman94

Active Member
SableZen said:
Yeah, if you keep the house temp within a normal range (aka, within a range the A/C can handle), keep your heat-generating lights away from external walls/windows, and exhaust in an un-obvious way... should be golden. But no reason to hide the exhaust under your bed, sounds like it could get uncomfortable. Do you not have a less used internal room or basement you could exhaust to?
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Well that's kinda my issue...The room is located in the back, it has 2 external walls and widows...as for under the bed I thought NO as soon as I posted it, but that room is really big so the Central AC should pick it up easily,Unfortunately its either that room or the hallway. Its a brand new Crate AC, so temps should remain within 1-3 degrees the same especially with the portable.

So if I insulated the windows and the external walls with High R' reflective, do you think Id be cool or should I get the Block IR for those areas
 
Melangwanja

Melangwanja

Active Member
How a "heat-copter" works is that it'll use the infrared light spectrum, which is where you'll find heat signatures.

How they function is that they'll usualy sweep areas, looking for hot spots, which is caused by the heat given off by your lamps.

Even if there's no hot air exiting your room, just the heat transfered through the walls could be enough for them to find it.

THe A/C is a great idea to keep things cooled down, such as around 25 degrees, but I think they still might pickup on the 1000w heat bulb.

Best I could suggest is try to great A LOT of cold air especially around the bulb, if you can do so without harming your plants, which should effectively help if keeping you under the radar.

I heard that mylar, being a great light reflector, can also help with heat related issues.

To sum it up, it's all about the heat.
 
K

katman94

Active Member
Melangwanja said:
How a "heat-copter" works is that it'll use the infrared light spectrum, which is where you'll find heat signatures.

How they function is that they'll usualy sweep areas, looking for hot spots, which is caused by the heat given off by your lamps.

Even if there's no hot air exiting your room, just the heat transfered through the walls could be enough for them to find it.

THe A/C is a great idea to keep things cooled down, such as around 25 degrees, but I think they still might pickup on the 1000w heat bulb.

Best I could suggest is try to great A LOT of cold air especially around the bulb, if you can do so without harming your plants, which should effectively help if keeping you under the radar.

I heard that mylar, being a great light reflector, can also help with heat related issues.

To sum it up, it's all about the heat.
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Ive thought about that but will that, cause any explosion or bulb burnout? I thought about running the ac straight to the bulb?
 
Melangwanja

Melangwanja

Active Member
katman94 said:
Ive thought about that but will that, cause any explosion or bulb burnout? I thought about running the ac straight to the bulb?
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Well, as far as that goes, I don't have much experience. But using the scientist part of me, the chances of burning out your bulb with cold is close to none.

As far as an explosion, unless you plan on freezing the bulb and then blasting it on really fast, no chance either.

THe idea of A/C directly to the bulb would be probably your best bet, just be careful that if you do do so, that the A/C doesn't run while your bulb is off - if you plan on a 18/6 or 20/4 cycle - since that could bring it's temp down so much that it could have a hard time keeping itself stable enough to re-ignit safely.

If you're able, just run the A/C and bulb into the same timer, so that should help with temp control.

Another suggestion of what you could do, is to find a ballast that has a self cooling fan system, that could help you a lot with the whole heating too.
 
K

katman94

Active Member
Melangwanja said:
Well, as far as that goes, I don't have much experience. But using the scientist part of me, the chances of burning out your bulb with cold is close to none.

As far as an explosion, unless you plan on freezing the bulb and then blasting it on really fast, no chance either.

THe idea of A/C directly to the bulb would be probably your best bet, just be careful that if you do do so, that the A/C doesn't run while your bulb is off - if you plan on a 18/6 or 20/4 cycle - since that could bring it's temp down so much that it could have a hard time keeping itself stable enough to re-ignit safely.

If you're able, just run the A/C and bulb into the same timer, so that should help with temp control.

Another suggestion of what you could do, is to find a ballast that has a self cooling fan system, that could help you a lot with the whole heating too.
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Okay man, here's what I'm gonna do...Im gonna cover windows with curtain color material, then I'm gonna insulate the windows with regular, drywall insulation, I'm gonna cover the top of the 250MH, exterior walls and the area around the axial fan, the rest of the room will be with Mylar, I'm going to hook the AC up to the 1000 bulb as that seems if its cold enough it would disappear on radar, I will run it full blast for 30 min, then fan for 30 min(so no freezing goes on, will remain off during 12 hr sleep time). Then Im gonna have the axial fan next to the 250 MH where it will suck all the heat away, I will run several fans for airflow...And poly separating bloom from veg and poly on floors

Thanks guys you helped a ton, 100 percent all organic herb here I come, I may start a journal if anybody would be interested. I will be mixing all organic teas:weed:

So with all the above listed I think Ill stay under the radar, do you guys think so?
 
SableZen

SableZen

Well-Known Member
Nah, just like you can't see a 1,000w bulb through a wall (or even a 10,000w bulb) with your eyes - FLIR can not/will not be able to see a bulb through a wall either. Don't overly complicate things. You only need to worry about two things with a small grow:

1. Is a heat source close enough to an external wall to make it a lot hotter than surrounding walls/roof? If yes, move your lights several feet away from that wall (and throw some reflective insulation up on it if you truly want to, but moving them a bit away from the wall should be more than adequate for small grow wattage), or just move them into a completely internal room if it's keeping you up at night with worry.

2. Where is your exhaust going? If outdoors, run it out a dryer vent/stove pipe or other normal exhaust for heat and try not to vent at night. If indoors, move it away from your plants and to an indoor location where the heat can be dissipated evenly by the central A/C.


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By the way, research up just a little on how to seal your windows in an unobvious way so people can't see in AND without drawing attention to your grow by having just thrown up reflective material that people can see from the outside... When it comes to windows, IR emission isn't much of a concern, but nosey people, rippers, neighbors, burglars, and law enforcement being able to look in or wonder why you have those one or two windows blacked out is.

Also, if you are talking about cooling the bulbs with airflow (cool tubes) - good idea for the plants. But won't really matter one way or another as far as FLIR goes.
 
K

katman94

Active Member
SableZen said:
Nah, just like you can't see a 1,000w bulb through a wall (or even a 10,000w bulb) with your eyes - FLIR can not/will not be able to see a bulb through a wall either. Don't overly complicate things. You only need to worry about two things with a small grow:

1. Is a heat source close enough to an external wall to make it a lot hotter than surrounding walls/roof? If yes, move your lights several feet away from that wall (and throw some reflective insulation up on it if you truly want to, but moving them a bit away from the wall should be more than adequate for small grow wattage), or just move them into a completely internal room if it's keeping you up at night with worry.

2. Where is your exhaust going? If outdoors, run it out a dryer vent/stove pipe or other normal exhaust for heat and try not to vent at night. If indoors, move it away from your plants and to an indoor location where the heat can be dissipated evenly by the central A/C.


-----------

By the way, research up just a little on how to seal your windows in an unobvious way so people can't see in AND without drawing attention to your grow by having just thrown up reflective material that people can see from the outside... When it comes to windows, IR emission isn't much of a concern, but nosey people, rippers, neighbors, burglars, and law enforcement being able to look in or wonder why you have those one or two windows blacked out is.

Also, if you are talking about cooling the bulbs with airflow (cool tubes) - good idea for the plants. But won't really matter one way or another as far as FLIR goes.
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Thanks man, I might as well cool the bulb, I'm going to be using the ac anyway, unfortunately the lights will be fairly close to the window, so I need to find a way to block out the windows securely that's for sure, I was thinking about getting a neutral color curtain or blanket and staple it around the window, so it looks as normal windows with curtains, I'm also gonna put the Radiative insulation over it just to be sure, as mentioned I will be using reflective anyway...the exhaust will go into another room, I'm gonna insulate both sides of the wall,and on exterior walls

Sound OK, it may be a little overboard but I rather be over safe than under safe if ya know what I mean...
 
Melangwanja

Melangwanja

Active Member
SableZen said:
Nah, just like you can't see a 1,000w bulb through a wall (or even a 10,000w bulb) with your eyes - FLIR can not/will not be able to see a bulb through a wall either. Don't overly complicate things. You only need to worry about two things with a small grow:

1. Is a heat source close enough to an external wall to make it a lot hotter than surrounding walls/roof? If yes, move your lights several feet away from that wall (and throw some reflective insulation up on it if you truly want to, but moving them a bit away from the wall should be more than adequate for small grow wattage), or just move them into a completely internal room if it's keeping you up at night with worry.

2. Where is your exhaust going? If outdoors, run it out a dryer vent/stove pipe or other normal exhaust for heat and try not to vent at night. If indoors, move it away from your plants and to an indoor location where the heat can be dissipated evenly by the central A/C.


-----------

By the way, research up just a little on how to seal your windows in an unobvious way so people can't see in AND without drawing attention to your grow by having just thrown up reflective material that people can see from the outside... When it comes to windows, IR emission isn't much of a concern, but nosey people, rippers, neighbors, burglars, and law enforcement being able to look in or wonder why you have those one or two windows blacked out is.

Also, if you are talking about cooling the bulbs with airflow (cool tubes) - good idea for the plants. But won't really matter one way or another as far as FLIR goes.
Click to expand...

Great statement, mate. But a FLIR, as you call it, (I personally prefer heat-copter, sounds less... anyways) picks up on the heat radiating through walls. THat's how they can "see" into where people are growing from and so on.

Sure, the whole window and so on would be problematic too, but it's really the heat that is the basis on which IR scanning goes on. It's a type of wavelength that goes "through" walls to look at what creates the heat. High School basic science is where you see those types of things, if you remember.
It's also used in the army, but, if you look at the videos they show of that "sight display" people disappear when they pass infront of a wall or anything. The copter's system is tweaked so it can see through the wall, for important signatures.

Cool off the heat, and normally, you can get around the FLIRs
 
SableZen

SableZen

Well-Known Member
A lot of people install blinds and curtains on the windows like normal, then build a frame/box around the indoor side of the window to seal it all up without it looking obvious from the outside. The frame/box can also then serve as a way to attach an intake vent to bring in fresh air without making more holes in your house. Could throw some IR reflective insulation onto the indoor surfaces (reflecting radiant heat back into the room) of the frame if desired, and there you go.

I hear you about the being overly safe thing - we all need to be able to sleep at night... but yeah, seems more than a little overboard to insulate so many surfaces with reflective material. The heat will still be there at the same amount and will still escape to the outside at the same rate and in the same way. Won't matter one bit to a camera looking at the outside of your house. Just trying to save you some money and time.
 
SableZen

SableZen

Well-Known Member
Melangwanja said:
Great statement, mate. But a FLIR, as you call it, (I personally prefer heat-copter, sounds less... anyways) picks up on the heat radiating through walls. THat's how they can "see" into where people are growing from and so on.

Sure, the whole window and so on would be problematic too, but it's really the heat that is the basis on which IR scanning goes on. It's a type of wavelength that goes "through" walls to look at what creates the heat. High School basic science is where you see those types of things, if you remember.
It's also used in the army, but, if you look at the videos they show of that "sight display" people disappear when they pass infront of a wall or anything. The copter's system is tweaked so it can see through the wall, for important signatures.

Cool off the heat, and normally, you can get around the FLIRs
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Don't want to start arguing about FLIR imaging people through walls again (feel free to post the video or link though). I've never seen or heard about it being done in all my years of using IR imaging... Nor should it even be possible according to physics. But I'd be open to someone showing me differently.
 
tat2ue

tat2ue

Well-Known Member
As a lot of you know, winter time heat sig's on a roof from attic venting can be an issue with extreme hot spots showing up. This is the way I dispose of my heat in winter time. I use cool tubes on my four 1000w HPS for my flower room. The intake is in my garage and vented directly into attic during summer where temps in there can exceed 120 degrees. But in winter time I run insulated ducting from the inline fan outflow to the central a/c duct that heats and cools my homes interior from the central a/c unit and use that vented air to help warm the interior of my 2 story house. The attic temps stay cool like the other houses around me and there are no hot spot showing up on the roof and I save a few bucks on my heating bill.
 
SableZen

SableZen

Well-Known Member
tat2ue said:
... But in winter time I run insulated ducting from the inline fan outflow to the central a/c duct that heats and cools my homes interior from the central a/c unit and use that vented air to help warm the interior of my 2 story house. The attic temps stay cool like the other houses around me and there are no hot spot showing up on the roof and I save a few bucks on my heating bill.
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I like the energy savings bit from that idea too. :weed:
 
svchop889

svchop889

Well-Known Member
i dont think x-ray works on houses yet but who knows the government probally would blast us all with that kind or radiation and use our tax dollars to pay for it just to find a few damn plants
 
Melangwanja

Melangwanja

Active Member
Okay, I realise that the way I was explaining what I meant about thermal imaging (FLIR related) was a little flawed.

When I was talking about the heat, and how it'd be a good idea to keep the bulb's temp low, it wasn't because I was saying that the imaging can pass through the walls to see it and so on.

And yes, okay, my other comment on seeing through things, I guess I was thinking about another type, instead.

But anyways, it still is usefull to keep the bulbs temp low, as that will help controll a certain amount of the heat radiating from to to the walls and windows, therefor limiting the "hotspots" that ARE picked up by the FLIR Heat-copter.
 
sguardians2

sguardians2

Well-Known Member
Very interesting thread. if you are really paranoid about FLIR, then use cfl's, maybe not as good as HID, but much much cooler.
 
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