HLG vs HGL Side By Side

Input higher, output the same, driver gives off more heat.

Lmao!
You guys are seriously missing the point hu?
The 84x's are actually a very poor 1.5- umol/j We are talking about MARS HYDRO #'s man, shit.
When in your life did you ever think a burple, MarsHydro efficiency led would grow like this?
Bump the Opinion on the Efficiency of any given part the Company chooses to use at this point IMO. No offense. Why? Cuz if she even bumps this thing to 2.0 umol/J of Her Juicy Sauce (so far, could flower poo) then right there that would mean "Danger Will Robinson" like a mudda to Premium Part Using Companies.
You guys asked for a higher efficiency burple/RGB n that's what HGL is doing. Only what you asked for. At the price point you want it then there must be sacrifices made. Why don't you wait n see if they measure up in the garden... Where all that matters is results & how easily they are obtained.
Honestly, had i not vegged side by side i would've been content/happy with my white plant, as i usually am.

Big Perm said:

I never said that.

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My bad!!!
Editted that
You know they r damm close tho. Lol!

OLD MOTHER SATIVA said:

"The driver efficiency for instance has a big impact on yield and overall efficiency."

>i dunno bro..first i heard this..sure electrical cost..

but on the yield thing.. a watt a is a watt and the readings are similar

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Of course a watt stays a watt but what you get per watt is not the same.
Lets say we both have a 300w light, mine has 2,5μMol/J, yours 2,65. I would have ~750μMol/s PPF, yours would have 795μMol/s. That's 6% more light and you should get ~6% more yield.
Efficiency matters ... it only depends how you look at it.

Randomblame said:

Of course a watt stays a watt but what you get per watt is not the same.
Lets say we both have a 300w light, mine has 2,5μMol/J, yours 2,65. I would have ~750μMol/s PPF, yours would have 795μMol/s. That's 6% more light and you should get ~6% more yield.
Efficiency matters ... it only depends how you look at it.

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Agreed totally. All im saying is to meet a certain price point some things need to be done. I willing to bet HLG pays more for their drivers then they do for the plate & boards. Or close. For a 6% gain in driver efficiency which i turn is only 2-3% once it comes out the other end, (lighted diodes). When some of that money could go towards spd r+d after having several growers having issues with white dominant light .
Ive been telling Amare from day 1 that I'd like to see 50% monos & 50% white. They're close but still white dominant.
Hey, n maybe they hit the nail right on the head. I dunno yet cuz being super happy with my Bar-8 results isnt the same as a comparison as we see here.
But anyways, i agree, she should do the very best she can, meaning not multiple, little shitty, melting plastic cased, China drivers. Something UL certed or close. 90% would be great to help out those Epis even if they are soft and spread.
Ultimately the whole unit will have to pass tests to be legally commercialized.
I think the ppf coming out is 1/2 the driver % loss not all of it. Maybe im wrong?

kotobide said:

But the blurple light is showing more red stems than the white light

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No, they are both doing fine with natural red petitoles, not purple ledburn .

sethimus said:

why would onboard drivers need their own, custom designed by cammie casing? and there are 1120 pcbs and only 800 drivers, math says no (or she already calculated the failure rate in...)

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Each of their drivers has 8 small drivers built in to run every cluster on the board separately. 8 channel drivers so to say but unfortunately not dimmable. They say, that makes the boards more fail safe if one cluster(or driver) gets a defect the others 7 would still running.
On their website they mention to use an 8 channel driver made from 8 smaller drivers inside one big driver case, each with 65v and 900mA per driver but they have increased both (voltage and current) for the new boards.
I like protection but not when it costs lots of performance.
A current limiting resistor integrated in each LED cluster would do exactly the same and you could use one big single channel driver instead of 8 small drivers. Not to forget you would have the dimming feature.

I'm pretty sure they have chosed the voltage and circuit layout for a certain reason.
Probably they hope to sell more of their own drivers if MW has no CV/CC driver that fits for their boards.

With the 8 separate channel design(connectors with 8x dc+ and one common dc-) you need at first to connect all the 8 channels on the boards in parallel or series to power them with a MW driver. That makes it a lot more difficult if not impossible to power them with other drivers.
We can only hope they change the circuit layouts at least on their DIY boards for better driver compatibility.

OLD MOTHER SATIVA said:

Are you guys sure about this.?

...just because its not as efficient ...does that mean it doesn't deliver the same wattage?

a 300w driver is a 300 w driver as far as i know..

Why can't it just be less efficient at supplying the correct wattage..?

The last thing i profess to be is an expert

..but this is the first time i have heard this

and driver efficiency has come up more than a few times here in the last few years

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Theoretically an 88% efficient driver that pulls exact 300w from the wall can supply 264w to the LED circuit.
A 300w driver with 94% efficiency would deliver 282w to the LED's. The more efficient driver simply has 6% more current.
But thats the theory.
In fact the more efficient driver would pull probably 3% less watts from the wall and would have 3% more DC current. So 3% more light and 3% less watts..

hybridway2 said:

No, they are both doing fine with natural red petitoles, not purple ledburn .

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I've seen much less purpleling with CRI90 white and think it could have to do with the peak wavelengths. Maybe some strains gets over saturated from certain wavelengths and this has the purpleling effect. Plants can handle red photons the best because of their lower energy levels. That means the saturation point for the higher wavelength is much higher as for instance for blue or green photons. CRI80 white light has lots of green, yellow and orange while CRI90 has more red and deepred wavelength and twice as much far-red.
It's known that LEDs cause an imbalance between photosynthesis system I and II cuz of the missing far and infra red radiation and that far-red can be used to even out it again. In nature plants gets deep and far-red simultanously and the phytochromes are switched on and off all day long. A light with no far-red would switch them on over the day and off at night. And this is what cause the imbalance. Adding far-red helps to solve this.
The HGL spectrum has only 10% blue, 15% green and the rest is red, deep- and far-red. There is for sure no saturation and because of the far-red there should also be less imbalance between PS-I and PS-II.
Below is a .pdf about effects of far-red if someone is interested...

Purpleling could have also another reason and its often the case with LED's.
A too !ow humidity cause a high VPD which in turn leads to an imbalace with the nutrient uptake and this could also have visible effects. Too much calcium uptake could cause a magnesium and phosphor deficit.

And last but not least it could just be something genetic. Almost all strains today are hybrids and even green strains can show some purpleling under LED's. Certain wavelengths have a strong effect too and deep blue, purple and UVA can improve color expression enormously. Such lights are often used by pro gardeners to improve colors and nutrient content of purple basil and other colorful kitchen greens.

I'm also not sure the purpleling has really negative effects.. My party cup girl had for instance purple petioles from the beginning but the stems itself were green like normal. I've not seen any negative effects, no slow growth, nothing. The opposite was the case, she even won and brought it to 58g.

The purpleling is probably a result of a mix of different effects and if growth is affected I'm pretty sure it has to do with a too high VPD. Since I keep temps and humidity in balance and always dialed in properly according to the plant stage I've seen almost no issues under LED. 70-75% humidity in veg and 65-70% in the flowering stage. 50-60% only in the last 5 weeks and ambient temps always between 27-30°C. Since I keep this levels of humidity calmag is no longer needed and water consumption is almost the same like under HPS.
LED radiate almost no heat and that makes it neccessary to regulate the VPD yourself. HPS light has 20% output in the 800nm range you can't see on most HPS SPD's but they heat up the leaves like sunlight. Thats not the case with LED's...
I can not say it often enough, the VPD is one of the most important factors you need to keep dialed in wihen switching to LED lights. Only 10% too low humidity can cause VPD's above 1,6kpa. But a plant in veg or in the 1st half of the flowering stage can handle only 1,2kpa. Most of the time its enough to increase the humidity in your groom by 10-15% and most of the problems with nutrient deficits, yellow leaves or purpleling gets solved completely.

You guys aren't understandin. There is NO LedDefficiency symptoms (= -effects) going on here.
The stems tell it. The petitoles will tell it too right before the stems. Imbtalkingvabout purple, not red. And this purple will take you down.
Neither plant is showing any symptoms at the moment.

Randomblame said:

Of course a watt stays a watt but what you get per watt is not the same.
Lets say we both have a 300w light, mine has 2,5μMol/J, yours 2,65. I would have ~750μMol/s PPF, yours would have 795μMol/s. That's 6% more light and you should get ~6% more yield.
Efficiency matters ... it only depends how you look at it.

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nah..imho you are all skirting around this..except captain morgan

same yield ..same wattage ..more power usage

I wouldn't trade my cow for any magic beans.

I found this link interesting.
It is not complete, pages are missing but it is still a good read about anthocyanin biosynthesis.
What I have been getting from this and other reads is that the knowledge about purple stems is in it's infancy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5655971/

Randomblame said:

Purpleling could have also another reason and its often the case with LED's.
A too !ow humidity cause a high VPD which in turn leads to an imbalace with the nutrient uptake and this could also have visible effects. Too much calcium uptake could cause a magnesium and phosphor deficit.

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that‘s probably what i always get in veg, goes away when there is enough bio mass and rh stabilizes

sethimus said:

that‘s probably what i always get in veg, goes away when there is enough bio mass and rh stabilizes

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Yeah, I've also learned it the hard way, lol!
Took me almost a half year to figure it out. I'd never heard something like a VPD exists cuz in my +20y using CM/HPS it was never ever a problem!
Fact is, since I understand it and keep my humidity levels high enough it has solved almost all issues I've found when using LED light (for instance bleaching, Mg deficits, P deficits and K or Ca toxicity).
For germination I use a pretty small chamber now with ~33w LED (28x 16x 12" , 2x 4 + 1x 5K EB strips) cuz its enough to heat it up to 25-28°C and I use DIY humidity domes (transparent party cups) until they have developed 2 true leaf sets.


And in the regular veg area I add a small donut humidifier now, a bowl of water and a fan blowing across the bowl. Works pretty well but I've to put it on a timer to avoid condensation.

I've already the parts to diy an automatic humidifier who switches on and off based on the humidity settings and the measured humidity. 20 bucks in parts...

... and this one(24v/1A) is a little more powerful like such a 5v USB donut.


Usually it takes until you have a closed canopy to get the humidity where you want it and until then I need additional humidity to keep my plants happy.
I was really desperate because I could not figure out what's the problem was. As soon as I turned up the light it tooks a week to cause a magnesium deficit and symptoms that looked like bleaching. I never thought 50-60% humidity and 27-28°C could be problematic but its a serious problem when using "cold" LED light.
This is the chart I'm using most of the time. Its calculated with leaf temps 1°C below ambient.
Blue range=germination/early veg (0,4-0,8kpa),
Green range=late veg/early flowering (0,8-1,2kpa) and
Yellow range=2nd half of the flowering stage(1,2-1,6kpa).
Ambient temps on the left, neccessary humidity level in the upper row. VPD is measured in kpa or mbar and the VPD measured on the leaves = the suction tension on the roots/inside the grow medium cuz its a capillar system.

hybridway2 said:

You guys aren't understandin. There is NO LedDefficiency symptoms (= -effects) going on here.
The stems tell it. The petitoles will tell it too right before the stems. Imbtalkingvabout purple, not red. And this purple will take you down.
Neither plant is showing any symptoms at the moment.

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So 2 led at low ppfd are not showing led defeciency? Sounds like it's not "led defeciency" at all sounds like you just get defeciency at high ppfd

hybridway2 said:

Bump the Opinion on the Efficiency of any given part the Company chooses to use at this point IMO. No offense. Why? Cuz if she even bumps this thing to 2.0 umol/J of Her Juicy Sauce (so far, could flower poo) then right there that would mean "Danger Will Robinson" like a mudda to Premium Part Using Companies.

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Spoken like a true shill. No offense but the way this is all written and presented is enough for me to form my final opinion. All yall are never gonna tell the truth. Almost everybody in on this is somehow in cahoots with his person who calls himself Cammie. Just my opinion.

Ryante55 said:

So 2 led at low ppfd are not showing led defeciency? Sounds like it's not "led defeciency" at all sounds like you just get defeciency at high ppfd

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These where under the same PPFD from rooted cutting, only diff is ones in Ocean Forrest and the other in coir. Coir plant was fed with a base RO to 150ppm of Cal-Mag then topped off to 500ppm of base nutrients.
2 weeks after transplant.

So that's showing me a nutrient or a coir problem, not a lighting problem!
And I say a coir problem in the fact that the link I posted showing some of the reasons for Mag diff and coir can fit into 3 of those categories.

I need to start mixing Happy frog and Ocean forest.