Drained-pool-politics

Rob Roy said:

A dog has 4 legs, a table has 4 legs. Therefore a dog could self describe as a table. My point being, a self description may or may not be accurate.

For instance, people who are political describing themselves as "anarchists", don't have a leg to stand on.

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So you don't support any form of modern anarchy, check, so what form of society/gov't do you support that fits within your criteria?

Rob Roy said:

The American people do not get their rights from a document though.

My angle ? I do not ascribe to the concept that American Indians have any more or any less rights than other people. They own what they own and don't own what they don't own. The world is full of expropriated property and how to unravel that is an important question isn't it ?

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Okay, so you're talking about our rights on a human level and not specific to Americans. Which means that in regard to Americans, "Rights cannot be protected by an entity which owes its existence to a violation of rights. It's impossible." is essentially a nullified statement, because if it's a situation we're all stuck with, then we just move on instead of curling up into a ball and Van Gogh'ing our ear off.

He’s a waste of breath @mooray

I'd just like to hear some substance, instead of digressing about self-perception. People are often afraid to offer substance for fear of ridicule and I think that sucks, not because of the ridicule, but because ideas can never be refined when they're not closed loop and that fear is the antithesis to personal growth. It's why I'm never really afraid to look like an idiot, because it's exactly how I improve.

mooray said:

I'd just like to hear some substance, instead of digressing about self-perception. People are often afraid to offer substance for fear of ridicule and I think that sucks, not because of the ridicule, but because ideas can never be refined when they're not closed loop and that fear is the antithesis to personal growth. It's why I'm never really afraid to look like an idiot, because it's exactly how I improve.

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Rob Roy doesn't have substance behind his rhetoric. Anarcho-capitalism is a made up idea. You know it's unworkable in a modern society. Just another useless philosophy that stacks right up there with any number of other hypothetical and unworkable ones. It's more about complaining that things aren't the way he wants rather than anything useful.

mooray said:

So you don't support any form of modern anarchy, check, so what form of society/gov't do you support that fits within your criteria?

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Anarchy is an often misused term, I'm reluctant to answer your question unless we have an agreed to meaning attached to the word.

I mostly align as a Voluntarist, sometimes spelled Voluntaryist. So I support a peaceful world.

mooray said:

Okay, so you're talking about our rights on a human level and not specific to Americans. Which means that in regard to Americans, "Rights cannot be protected by an entity which owes its existence to a violation of rights. It's impossible." is essentially a nullified statement, because if it's a situation we're all stuck with, then we just move on instead of curling up into a ball and Van Gogh'ing our ear off.

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Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power...

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I reject this premise. Lead by example is a very sound principle and just because a person is too shitty to do it, doesn't somehow negate the principle. That thought also only exists in one's mind once they've given up, and they must ignore the catch 22 in that, if they're shit, we're somehow not shit, but that's not reality in the US.

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You have to admit, this is kind of funny with, "not being bound by government regulation and we refuse to be supervised by any government agency, and oh btw we have to like pay taxes and stuff".

They're very selective with the realities they choose to accept/reject depending on when it suits their interest.

Also, our origination is essentially voluntaryism and the fact that a trillion laws were needed to reign in shitty behavior is quantifiable proof that it's not something we're anywhere near ready for. But, thanks for at least throwing out the word to give me something to go on. I do have one thought that I suspect we're in agreement with, which is that the ideal society has zero laws and zero gov't and they're simply not needed because people do what's right and what's needed by choice. It's just that it's basically fantasyland.

Wattzzup said:

He’s a waste of breath @mooray

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That's not a very good argument.

mooray said:

I reject this premise. Lead by example is a very sound principle and just because a person is too shitty to do it, doesn't somehow negate the principle. That thought also only exists in one's mind once they've given up, and they must ignore the catch 22 in that, if they're shit, we're somehow not shit, but that's not reality in the US.

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I apologize, but I'm not sure of your point and how it is relevant. Were you defending something or rebutting something ?

mooray said:

I do have one thought that I suspect we're in agreement with, which is that the ideal society has zero laws and zero gov't and they're simply not needed because people do what's right and what's needed by choice. It's just that it's basically fantasyland.

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I am not opposed to governance. For instance, I try to govern my own behavior in accordance with my own principles. I try hard not to govern your behavior unless / until it intersects with my own life in such a way as to impact my rights. I don't think that is fantasyland, I think it is the best reality
there is.

I am opposed to a coercion based government, most sane people are. Government is an institution which relies on coercion, and initiatory coercion against otherwise peaceful people (people not taking others rights away). That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Like it or not.

Believing that an institution based in coercion can bring about a just world, is fantasyland. It is literally impossible, since coercion and justice are opposing concepts. It would be like cutting pieces of your dick off, to gain a few inches.

The ideal society for people can vary, I'm okay with that as long as your ideals aren't forced on others, which is what happens in the present, which is why there is so much turmoil in the world. If you want or need government, go for it, just don't think your ideals can be voted onto me....I may reject them.

Fogdog said:

Rob Roy doesn't have substance behind his rhetoric.

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Oh dear, you've found another bottle of stupid pills.

If people have equal rights and nobody has a right to force an otherwise peaceful person to do things they prefer not to, that would mean the only way to make democratic decisions would be thru consensus of all the people involved and impacted. Yet, you persistently tout another reality.

Please induce vomiting and stay away from stupid pills, you know how you get when you're on them.

Rob Roy said:

I am not opposed to governance. For instance, I try to govern my own behavior in accordance with my own principles. I try hard not to govern your behavior unless / until it intersects with my own life in such a way as to impact my rights. I don't think that is fantasyland, I think it is the best reality
there is.

I am opposed to a coercion based government, most sane people are. Government is an institution which relies on coercion, and initiatory coercion against otherwise peaceful people (people not taking others rights away). That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Like it or not.

Believing that an institution based in coercion can bring about a just world, is fantasyland. It is literally impossible, since coercion and justice are opposing concepts. It would be like cutting pieces of your dick off, to gain a few inches.

The ideal society for people can vary, I'm okay with that as long as your ideals aren't forced on others, which is what happens in the present, which is why there is so much turmoil in the world. If you want or need government, go for it, just don't think your ideals can voted onto me....I may reject them.

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Name one government on planet earth that operates that way and ask yourself why there are none. Just because you pull it out of your ass doesn't mean it will work or anybody else wants it. Democratic governments operate the way they do for a reason, it works with human nature. If you can maintain a liberal democracy, it will eventually include everybody and lead to equality for all under the law, a more perfect union, this is a historical trend in multiple cultures.

Societies operate with rules, some are laws, some are social expectations and requirements. Say ya decide that to be free ya need to run around buck naked in public? Think others wanna look at yer ugly ass?

DIY-HP-LED said:

Name one government on planet earth that operates that way and ask yourself why there are none. Just because you pull it out of your ass doesn't mean it will work or anybody else wants it. Democratic governments operate the way they do for a reason, it works with human nature. If you can maintain a liberal democracy, it will eventually include everybody and lead to equality for all under the law, a more perfect union, this is a historical trend in multiple cultures.

Societies operate with rules, some are laws, some are social expectations and requirements. Say ya decide that to be free ya need to run around buck naked in public? Think others wanna look at yer ugly ass?

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Yes, I think there are some who very much want to look at my ass. It's a perfectly formed muscular and manly creation. In fact you wish yours was as attractive, in a manly way of course. I can't help it that your man boobs are bothering you, I suggest a better diet and some regular pushups.

Name one democratic government that isn't based in coercion. By that I mean a government that will make a ruling and exempt those who didn't consent as long as they remain peaceful. You can't. Democracy is often gang rape, metaphorically and literally. Why do you need to run others lives so much, were you locked in a closet as a child or something ?

hanimmal said:

the education

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Compulsory government schooling isn't really "education" though. The nature of the word compulsory, forced to pay, agenda based curriculum, in many cases forced to attend, etc. makes it more indoctrination than education.

I wonder how much you know about the origins of government schools and the intentions behind them. Perhaps you should educate yourself in that area?

Rob Roy said:

Compulsory government schooling isn't really "education" though. The nature of the word compulsory, forced to pay, agenda based curriculum, in many cases forced to attend, etc. makes it more indoctrination than education.

I wonder how much you know about the origins of government schools and the intentions behind them. Perhaps you should educate yourself in that area?

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Shortsighted opinion that you have based on a whole lot of sketchy nonsense being fed to you by right wing propagandists (from the few links you have littered the site with).

All your bullshit ends up just causing more recessions.

Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's valuable or useful. Do I wake up in the morning and take my poop out of the toilet and go show everybody? Well that's exactly what a racist does.