Fascism came to town

CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
To rebut, she championed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a fabricated hit piece on Jews and Judaism.

That tract was one of the drivers of the Jewish suffering in the first half of the 20th century.

So there is imo an irreducible component of bigoted motive. That isn’t culture shock; it’s buying into the lie that killed millions in living memory.
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Being that she doesn't back away from the books she requested be removed and attempts to describe her reasoning for doing so but does express remorse for posting that, and claims she didn't understand what she posted and only saw 'communism' and assumed it was about communism, sounds to me she didn't post it because of hate. I'm not claiming she is a good person or that she should get a pass on her abhorrent behaviour. She should be judged in a different context than someone who didn't experience what she did in leaving a communist country.

If I joined a gang in my city and assaulted someone I would be a criminal. If someone escaped Syria and joined a gang in my city and assaulted someone they would also be a criminal. Would you agree that I should receive a larger punishment for the exact same assault? Someone dealing with trauma and that had less time to find and become part of a good community has to factor into how actions are judged.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
Being that she doesn't back away from the books she requested be removed and attempts to describe her reasoning for doing so but does express remorse for posting that, and claims she didn't understand what she posted and only saw 'communism' and assumed it was about communism, sounds to me she didn't post it because of hate. I'm not claiming she is a good person or that she should get a pass on her abhorrent behaviour. She should be judged in a different context than someone who didn't experience what she did in leaving a communist country.

If I joined a gang in my city and assaulted someone I would be a criminal. If someone escaped Syria and joined a gang in my city and assaulted someone they would also be a criminal. Would you agree that I should receive a larger punishment for the exact same assault? Someone dealing with trauma and that had less time to find and become part of a good community has to factor into how actions are judged.
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we're not judging her for criminal activity, we're judging her on being a horrible thoughtless bigot...other people get worse treatment and don't use it as an excuse to be a cunt.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
CANON_Grow said:
Being that she doesn't back away from the books she requested be removed and attempts to describe her reasoning for doing so but does express remorse for posting that, and claims she didn't understand what she posted and only saw 'communism' and assumed it was about communism, sounds to me she didn't post it because of hate. I'm not claiming she is a good person or that she should get a pass on her abhorrent behaviour. She should be judged in a different context than someone who didn't experience what she did in leaving a communist country.

If I joined a gang in my city and assaulted someone I would be a criminal. If someone escaped Syria and joined a gang in my city and assaulted someone they would also be a criminal. Would you agree that I should receive a larger punishment for the exact same assault? Someone dealing with trauma and that had less time to find and become part of a good community has to factor into how actions are judged.
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They’re equal crimes and equal acts of bad judgment. Absent any unstipulated extenuating circumstances, I don’t think they should be differently punished.

One factor that possibly works the other way in your example is that I assume you led your whole life in our fairly free and rich society. A Syrian escapee would experience a gratitude to be here that you and I can try to imagine. So I argue that the Syrian who so rejects the law is more and not less culpable.

Every case has its complexities, which makes a single sentencing standard usually the equitable choice. I’m not really sure, and this is my tentative opinion.
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
we're not judging her for criminal activity, we're judging her on being a horrible thoughtless bigot...other people get worse treatment and don't use it as an excuse to be a cunt.
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She very well could be a horrible thoughtless bigot and she doesn't sound very intelligent from everything I've read. Just because many people come from terrible backgrounds and are able overcome that doesn't mean everyone has the ability to do that on their own.
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
They’re equal crimes and equal acts of bad judgment. Absent any unstipulated extenuating circumstances, I don’t think they should be differently punished.

One factor that possibly works the other way in your example is that I assume you led your whole life in our fairly free and rich society. A Syrian escapee would experience a gratitude to be here that you and I can try to imagine. So I argue that the Syrian who so rejects the law is more and not less culpable.

Every case has its complexities, which makes a single sentencing standard usually the equitable choice. I’m not really sure, and this is my tentative opinion.
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Punishment vs reform. I believe someone that has grown up in a safe community and chose to do harm requires a harsher punishment to reform their behaviour. The Syrian refugee may require more guidance and support to become a positive member of society, but having a stronger punishment isn't going to be helpful in them becoming that.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
CANON_Grow said:
Punishment vs reform. I believe someone that has grown up in a safe community and chose to do harm requires a harsher punishment to reform their behaviour. The Syrian refugee may require more guidance and support to become a positive member of society, but having a stronger punishment isn't going to be helpful in them becoming that.
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First, the system needs to be set up for reform. In US it is very much not. I’ve spoken to people who worked in various capacities in the prisons, and especially the guards maintain a dehumanizing atmosphere/idiom. Those who turn it around tend to do so despite the system.

So I won’t pretend that reform is the objective in our heavily privatized prisons. There is no profit in providing such resources to the “customer/product”.

I think I opined some days ago that to corrections corporations, what you and I call repeat offenders they think of as loyal customers.

The single biggest impediment to a sea change is Republicans. They tend to be focused on the quarterly return on investment.
 
CANON_Grow

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
First, the system needs to be set up for reform. In US it is very much not. I’ve spoken to people who worked in various capacities in the prisons, and especially the guards maintain a dehumanizing atmosphere/idiom. Those who turn it around tend to do so despite the system.

So I won’t pretend that reform is the objective in our heavily privatized prisons. There is no profit in providing such resources to the “customer/product”.

I think I opined some days ago that to corrections corporations, what you and I call repeat offenders they think of as loyal customers.

The single biggest impediment to a sea change is Republicans. They tend to be focused on the quarterly return on investment.
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Agree with your points. It seems like most want the objective to be punishment but reform should be the goal, it's better for everyone. (In most cases, some people are not redeemable and only deserve punishment & isolation)

I was using it as an analogy to illustrate the point that someone with that woman's life experience should be taken into account compared to other people doing similar hateful messaging, example being Hernando County School Board member Shannon Rodriguez. I believe the former has a better chance at actually changing her behaviour with some guidance compared to the latter.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
CANON_Grow said:
She very well could be a horrible thoughtless bigot and she doesn't sound very intelligent from everything I've read. Just because many people come from terrible backgrounds and are able overcome that doesn't mean everyone has the ability to do that on their own.
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that's not a fucking excuse, that's just an explanation that they're fucking horrible people...
The inability to not be fucking shit heel asshole doesn't make it alright to be a shit heel asshole...
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Fascism came to town and the bodies are starting to pile up.

We've been warned, as if we needed it that hate crimes are rising and minority groups are taking the heat.


ADL, which keeps its own count of both criminal and non-criminal acts of hate against Jews, counted a total of 3,697 antisemitic incidents in 2022, the highest number on record since ADL began tracking such data in 1979. Assaults – considered the most serious incident type because it involves person-on-person physical violence – increased 26 percent in 2022.

Jews make up around 2 percent of the U.S. population. Yet, in 2022, according to the FBI data, reported antisemitic hate crime incidents accounted for 9.6 percent of all hate crimes.


I first saw late this last night seems and her (assumed) assassination seems especially poignant. She was 40, becoming a force in her community and much loved by those who worked with or knew her in the community.

1698005892799.png

Synagogue Leader Is Killed in Detroit, but Motive Is Not Known, Authorities Say
Samantha Woll, 40, the president of a synagogue downtown, was lauded as a dynamic figure in the community.

www.nytimes.com

Synagogue Leader Is Killed in Detroit, but Motive Is Not Known, Authorities Say

Samantha Woll, 40, the president of a synagogue downtown, was lauded as a dynamic figure in the community.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

The president of a synagogue in Detroit who was known as one of the city’s most vibrant religious leaders was found killed near her home on Saturday. The authorities have not yet determined a motive.
The president, Samantha Woll, 40, led the board of the Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue, a century-old institution that is the only free-standing synagogue in downtown Detroit, according to its website.


Its been said that the liberal movement that spun from racial unrest and the anti-war movements of the 60's was stopped by assassinations of its leaders. Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, just to name a few. Samantha Woll is not of their stature but her eulogy shows she might have become a great leader if she had lived. We will never know. What we do know is, assassination is a tool the authoritarian right and especially fascists use to achieve defeat majoritarian democracy and establish vile absolutist authoritarian rule.

Maybe I'm jumping to a conclusion. I'm just filing it here for now based upon circumstances of the day. In context with these times, this murder seems to have been an antisemitic politically motivated murder. I'll follow up when the facts become apparent.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Fascism came to town and the bodies are starting to pile up.

We've been warned, as if we needed it that hate crimes are rising and minority groups are taking the heat.


ADL, which keeps its own count of both criminal and non-criminal acts of hate against Jews, counted a total of 3,697 antisemitic incidents in 2022, the highest number on record since ADL began tracking such data in 1979. Assaults – considered the most serious incident type because it involves person-on-person physical violence – increased 26 percent in 2022.

Jews make up around 2 percent of the U.S. population. Yet, in 2022, according to the FBI data, reported antisemitic hate crime incidents accounted for 9.6 percent of all hate crimes.


I first saw late this last night seems and her (assumed) assassination seems especially poignant. She was 40, becoming a force in her community and much loved by those who worked with or knew her in the community.

View attachment 5338013

Synagogue Leader Is Killed in Detroit, but Motive Is Not Known, Authorities Say
Samantha Woll, 40, the president of a synagogue downtown, was lauded as a dynamic figure in the community.

www.nytimes.com

Synagogue Leader Is Killed in Detroit, but Motive Is Not Known, Authorities Say

Samantha Woll, 40, the president of a synagogue downtown, was lauded as a dynamic figure in the community.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

The president of a synagogue in Detroit who was known as one of the city’s most vibrant religious leaders was found killed near her home on Saturday. The authorities have not yet determined a motive.
The president, Samantha Woll, 40, led the board of the Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue, a century-old institution that is the only free-standing synagogue in downtown Detroit, according to its website.


Its been said that the liberal movement that spun from racial unrest and the anti-war movements of the 60's was stopped by assassinations of its leaders. Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, just to name a few. Samantha Woll is not of their stature but her eulogy shows she might have become a great leader if she had lived. We will never know. What we do know is, assassination is a tool the authoritarian right and especially fascists use to achieve defeat majoritarian democracy and establish vile absolutist authoritarian rule.

Maybe I'm jumping to a conclusion. I'm just filing it here for now based upon circumstances of the day. In context with these times, this murder seems to have been an antisemitic politically motivated murder. I'll follow up when the facts become apparent.
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The ironic thing is the republican party is home to both big boosters of Israel and Nazi's, almost all the antisemitic acts are committed by white republican neo nazis and fascists, the KKK used to hate Jews and Catholics as much as blacks. They are likewise divided on support for Ukraine, with the magats vs the Russia Hawks. The right is the home of domestic terrorism in America, they protect, support, coddle it and even drive it with lies and inflammatory rhetoric.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
The ironic thing is the republican party is home to both big boosters of Israel and Nazi's, almost all the antisemitic acts are committed by white republican neo nazis and fascists, the KKK used to hate Jews and Catholics as much as blacks. They are likewise divided on support for Ukraine, with the magats vs the Russia Hawks. The right is the home of domestic terrorism in America, they protect, support, coddle it and even drive it with lies and inflammatory rhetoric.
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After generations of experiencing harm from antisemitism and prejudice, Jewish people know what to look and listen for. It's no accident that the majority of Jewish voters are Democrats. The majority of Jewish voters in the US have negative views about Netanyahu. They see him as the fascist he is. Though they might not use that loaded word.
 
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