Discuss the advantages of "Vert"

[Chip Green]

So, I figure, anybody who is using this style right now, MUST have above average growing skill....
I'm fascinated and intrigued, I have to know more.
I'm on the brink of a new home purchase, Ill be designing a new grow area in the coming months. I'm comfortable with the DIY LED route, so full customization is possible.
There MUST be multiple factors behind the decision to run this method, please discuss.

 

[Enigma]

50+ g/sq ft comes to mind.

 

[gr865]

50+ g/sq ft comes to mind.

24.4 Zips, 1.2 g/w of smokable buds or 57.2 grams/sqft. I grew in a 4x4 tent, vert, but only used 9 to 12 sqft for the grow.

 

[rkymtnman]

So, I figure, anybody who is using this style right now, MUST have above average growing skill....
I'm fascinated and intrigued, I have to know more.
I'm on the brink of a new home purchase, Ill be designing a new grow area in the coming months. I'm comfortable with the DIY LED route, so full customization is possible.
There MUST be multiple factors behind the decision to run this method, please discuss.

do some google searches for heath robinson vertical grows. he only used a 600 hps but his designs and especially his results will blow you away.

and GR865 had a helluva good grow too using CMH bulbs.

 

[coreywebster]

More square foot of canopy for less square foot of floor space.

When my mate moved house I told him he needed to go vert. He used to have 4m2 to utilize but after the move he could only use a 1m2 tent 2m high. So I gave him my old cool tubes and set the tent up with 2 shelves on 3 walls and 2 600w hps and increased his usable space. Still not as much as he had but better than he would of had running 1 x 600w horizontal.

I don't think growing skill comes into it.

 

[gr865]

I don't think growing skill comes into it.

There is a learning curve to vertical, it is time consuming and you have to stay on top of the grow are you are fucked. Consistency is the key, being able to pull it off time after time. One might get lucky on one grow but at some point he will mess up.
This was what I considered my best vertical grow but I still had issues, my fault but again learning curve. It is that way with every grow style unless you just chunk the beans in the woods and come back later to see what came up.
I do believe it to be combo of grow style and more important the amount of light available to the plants. To me that is the limiting factor in most grows.

GR

 

[Stealthstyle]

i pulled 36 oz of one 600 watter in a vertical sog. there was rooom for more too with area enough for a scog at the bottom. would have been harder to work on though with a scrog on the bottom. negatives- plant numbers and how much coco needed. looks suspect buying that much coco. (9litres x 36)

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

I have to post a counterpoint here.

My best yield was 4 plants under an air cooled hood with a 600 hps in a 3.5'x3.5' area. I did 24 oz of dense nugs. I don't weigh trim or small or loose nugs until we make oil or butter so none are counted. If I was commercial the small buds alone would add 2 oz to these numbers.

I consistently average 20 to 22 ounces like this. and with 4 plants a week to 10 days apart and on stands to keep an even canopy. I am counting 3-4 plants per month and averaging. Different strains or crosses are planted each time. So the plants can produce differently but the average always stays.

I have 2 600's going and a 3x3 veg tent and have done this from seed for over 2.5 years now.

The only training is to bend the flowers one time by week 2 of 12/12 to promote branching into approx 30" little bushes. And maybe staking if the strain is viney.

How is vertical better in these small spaces?

Heath Robinson was mentioned but he grew huge trees with the branches tied to the ceiling to hold them up with multiple light bulbs per plant hanging all around it.

The plants are bigger than the bedroom I am using.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

i pulled 36 oz of one 600 watter in a vertical sog. there was rooom for more too with area enough for a scog at the bottom. would have been harder to work on though with a scrog on the bottom. negatives- plant numbers and how much coco needed. looks suspect buying that much coco. (9litres x 36)

Wow. Super great job!

I meant to add above that a sea of green shelf or stadium grow might do it but I can only have 12 plants total. And I can move my plants around easy.

 

[predd]

YIELD!!.....I have only a very small space to work with to flower in (36x20x60" tent). I have done many horizontal grows with high end led cob's and I just can't get the same yield.I have probably triple the surface area when I go vert. Then there's the training, getting a level canopy horizontal can be quite a challenge (I've topped, lst, mainlined etc etc)For me vert requires virtually no training in veg unless I have an indica that won't side branch(then I top)...just let em grow. Then when I throw them into flower I just pin them to the screens during the stretch and the remove a bunch of fan leaves....so ez. I'm also using octopot's with super soil( sip's) so I only need to water once a week if that.......I could literally open my flower tent once a week if I wanted.....mega yields of killer organic weed with virtually no maintenance.....I'm using a 315 lec cmh btw.

 

[gr865]

Wow. Super great job!

I meant to add above that a sea of green shelf or stadium grow might do it but I can only have 12 plants total. And I can move my plants around easy.

Not sure what your grow area size but if you have the room, two 5 plant vert screens, w/1260W (two stacked 315W CMH per screen groupe). That would be 10 plants and give you two mothers two grow.
I ran a 5 plant screen grow, one plants did very little, but the other 4 gave me 34.5 zips total with 24.5 trimmed smokable buds. That was with stacked 315's.
Just a thought, I know ya gotta work with whatcha got.
Good luck
GR

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Not sure what your grow area size but if you have the room, two 5 plant vert screens, w/1260W (two stacked 315W CMH per screen groupe). That would be 10 plants and give you two mothers two grow.
I ran a 5 plant screen grow, one plants did very little, but the other 4 gave me 34.5 zips total with 24.5 trimmed smokable buds. That was with stacked 315's.
Just a thought, I know ya gotta work with whatcha got.
Good luck
GR

I just posted above that each 600 is over 3.5'x3.5' or 12.25 square feet.

And I have done 24 oz only counting dense buds over the size of a quarter round. Everything else to the trim pile for edibles and not weighed.

This was done with 4 different strains from seed some I had not grown before and all 4 plants were at different stages of growth.

I could easily beat my record with a medium yielding strain grown together.

I have 2 600's over 3.5'x7' with a plant harvested every week to 10 days on average.

I used the weight of 4 plants harvested in one months time for the record posted.

So 24 oz plus a quarter pound of trimmed bud leaves and small and loose buds under a 600 watt Hortilux super hps in a 12.25 square foot area is my current record.

But I don't Grow for yield. I grow for quality. The yield came from practice. I use potting soil and a bottle of base Grow nutes and well water only. And in 3 gallon plastic nursery pots.

I have needed cal mag for my soft well water but now supplement lime in the mix to cover the missing calcium.

Not sold on small vert grows. May try a heath Robinson style grow in my basement though. I would hang 2 bare 600's and 1 600 blue metal halide around one plant.

 

[Flowki]

I just posted above that each 600 is over 3.5'x3.5' or 12.25 square feet.

And I have done 24 oz only counting dense buds over the size of a quarter round. Everything else to the trim pile for edibles and not weighed.

This was done with 4 different strains from seed some I had not grown before and all 4 plants were at different stages of growth.

I could easily beat my record with a medium yielding strain grown together.

I have 2 600's over 3.5'x7' with a plant harvested every week to 10 days on average.

I used the weight of 4 plants harvested in one months time for the record posted.

So 24 oz plus a quarter pound of trimmed bud leaves and small and loose buds under a 600 watt Hortilux super hps in a 12.25 square foot area is my current record.

But I don't Grow for yield. I grow for quality. The yield came from practice. I use potting soil and a bottle of base Grow nutes and well water only. And in 3 gallon plastic nursery pots.

I have needed cal mag for my soft well water but now supplement lime in the mix to cover the missing calcium.

Not sold on small vert grows. May try a heath Robinson style grow in my basement though. I would hang 2 bare 600's and 1 600 blue metal halide around one plant.

I am really not being a dick here but it seems you are set in your ways and are defensively disqualifying this as it's easier than adapting your setup. But the thing is, you don't need to change it at all if you don't want to. People grow in ways that suite them, it's not all about yield as you said.

You can't argue the math because no matter the size of a space, lighting and lay out techniques exists to take advantage of existing space, walls and even the roof depending on circumstance. The logistics of achieving light intensity over this increased surface area is the subjective part and that alone.

Exceptions will obviously exist but for most of us it's lack of desire. Again, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Uncle Reefer]

I have done many vert grows. in the end the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Yes on paper you will get more once in a while but the work involved is way more.
KISS my friend KISS

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

I am really not being a dick here but it seems you are set in your ways and are defensively disqualifying this as it's easier than adapting your setup. But the thing is, you don't need to change it at all if you don't want to. People grow in ways that suite them, it's not all about yield as you said.

You can't argue the math because no matter the size of a space, lighting and lay out techniques exists to take advantage of existing space, walls and even the roof depending on circumstance. The logistics of achieving light intensity over this increased surface area is the subjective part and that alone.

Exceptions will obviously exist but for most of us it's lack of desire. Again, nothing wrong with that.

I am actually and have been considering a vert bare bulb grow in my basement like I was saying. I have not insulated it yet so the new rooms are still a ways off (bought old house needs work still).

But from my research I feel multiple bulbs around full size trees (6.5' available in basement and 10x12 or so area for flowering) would be a better option.

I am not challenging different styles. I chose to stick with one method until I felt fully competent and had repeatable results for a couple of years.

What I am challenging here is the trellis around a single bulb. There are obviously more square feet available for canopy but the thickness of the canopy needs to be considered.

I see a few inches of bud thick to maybe a foot spread out on the screens.

With the overhead lighting kept to the proper coverage areas and some space for airflow through the plants I bud up to 30" thick.

I can see sea of green stadium or shelf potential more than the 3 or 4 trellises and 1 bulb tent style.

I am responsible for a consistent supply of meds. I can't take drastic risks all at once like revamping my whole setup. It's not that I don't want to try different things.

I plan to run some bubble buckets or even a hempy Grow to compare pure hydro to my hybrid organic Grow too.

 

[gr865]

If you have the room to do vertical trees, go for it, have seen great results. Wish I had the room and was living somewhere I was comfortable to do so.
GR

 

[ttystikk]

Gaming spent a lot of time developing equipment and techniques to take advantage of vertical growing, I'm of the opinion that the juice IS worth the squeeze.

Ultimately it comes down to less for space for a given yield and less effort training once you have a system down.

 

[Flowki]

I am actually and have been considering a vert bare bulb grow in my basement like I was saying. I have not insulated it yet so the new rooms are still a ways off (bought old house needs work still).

But from my research I feel multiple bulbs around full size trees (6.5' available in basement and 10x12 or so area for flowering) would be a better option.

I am not challenging different styles. I chose to stick with one method until I felt fully competent and had repeatable results for a couple of years.

What I am challenging here is the trellis around a single bulb. There are obviously more square feet available for canopy but the thickness of the canopy needs to be considered.

I see a few inches of bud thick to maybe a foot spread out on the screens.

With the overhead lighting kept to the proper coverage areas and some space for airflow through the plants I bud up to 30" thick.

I can see sea of green stadium or shelf potential more than the 3 or 4 trellises and 1 bulb tent style.

I am responsible for a consistent supply of meds. I can't take drastic risks all at once like revamping my whole setup. It's not that I don't want to try different things.

I plan to run some bubble buckets or even a hempy Grow to compare pure hydro to my hybrid organic Grow too.

I get what you are saying completely on the logistic/risk parts.

The light penetration thing, although a good point I still disagree with. You may get deeper penetration (straight face) if in a 3x3 under normal grow conditions but the density of buds the lower you get suffers, this is why the likes of UB topping for 4 is out dated if pushing for weight. If you spread out that canopy over a cage it is obviously less dense but the area will increase a lot more. The most important part is the light hitting most of the thin canopy at optimal intensity. Essentially every bud is going to have the density of top bud and although smaller in size, they will out weigh donkey dicks volume wise.

In an ideal situation you would first max out surface area canopy. With that maxed out you would also max out light intensity/spread to cover that area. Once that's maxed out you would have no other real option but to increase canopy density where possible, but that could detract from initial surface area.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

I get what you are saying completely on the logistic/risk parts.

The light penetration thing, although a good point I still disagree with. You may get deeper penetration (straight face) if in a 3x3 under normal grow conditions but the density of buds the lower you get suffers, this is why the likes of UB topping for 4 is out dated if pushing for weight. If you spread out that canopy over a cage it is obviously less dense but the area will increase a lot more. The most important part is the light hitting most of the thin canopy at optimal intensity. Essentially every bud is going to have the density of top bud and although smaller in size, they will out weigh donkey dicks volume wise.

In an ideal situation you would first max out surface area canopy. With that maxed out you would also max out light intensity/spread to cover that area. Once that's maxed out you would have no other real option but to increase canopy density where possible, but that could detract from initial surface area.

Yes I have heard and read the theory. Problem is I don't Grow for yield. I grow 1 plant at a time from feminized seed spaced out about 10 days apart now for harvesting a plant every week or two. I want the highest quality and plant potential I can get.

I don't use boosters or additives. Just potting soil. Well water and pure Blend Pro Grow as needed.

Any soil and nutes I tried gave similar results.

I keep the plants on stands to even out the canopy and my 2 600's overhead in sun system blockbusters grow dense bud 30" down through the canopy.

Of course genetics and conditions are going to drastically change results im told. But any good genetics have proven to get results with a good Grow.

In fact I think the environment and individual Grow are more important than genetics for the most part.

I try new seeds all the time. I have no way to know my results each seed can be different. Especially poly hybrids.

How much would I get if I grew a room of clones from a high yielding monther plant together?

I am already matching the best numbers I read from the vert claims here.

I suggest practice. Not labor intensive techniques. I bend these plants and tie them down only once usually. And I move them all around every watering to give them equal light all around. And air flow. Which is just as important.

All 3 plants are from different breeders seeds and were grown at different times of the year In my ventilated room.



The lowers may be smaller but they are just as dense and frosty as the tops. In fact. I mostly smoke the little buds due to high value and demand for the tops when it comes to donations.

 

[Uncle Reefer]

SO do you really mean side lighting , one plant with many lights around it? If so I wouldn't consider that vertical growing. That is common practice up here in bc because of the medical plant count laws. I have heard of monster plants with 4 1000 watters around them. Not the best yield per photon but fantastic yield per plant