# Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 18, 2007)

This style of op is known as 'Sea of Green' or SoG. 

You can build this op in any scale you like, from a single mother and just one plant put in to the flowering area every two weeks up to as big as your needs require.

The idea is to grow only the top cola of a naturally growing plant with none of the lower branches and the small buds those branches produce. All branching, pretty much everything on the lower 1/3 of the plant, is snipped off in about wk 2 & 3. 

_





Plant at 6 wks flowering, note lower branching is removed_

The method of putting clones in to flower with no vegging time keeps plants relatively short, to about 36-40" (1 metre), which better suits artificial lighting. 

Even powerful HPS lighting can only penetrate foliage so deeply, so a metre tall is just about right. I find that big lights give better bud density, so I use two 1000W HPS, one over each pair of 4' x 4' flood trays.

The mums are maintained under 24 hour 400W HPS. The clonebox has 6x 18W fluoro tubes (24"), usually on 24/7 but shut off for the first 6-8 hours after doing a new batch of cuttings.

Clones go straight from the clonebox into the flowering trays- no vegging required. They grow a little bit vegetatively for the first 3-4 weeks but then stop getting taller and start making bud weight after then. 

I keep about 6-8 mothers and do about 30 cuttings every 2 weeks from them. I choose the best 20-23 clones to be put in the 4-tray flowering area. 

Leftover clones become replacement mothers or are discarded. Mothers are replaced one by one, about every 4-8 weeks as needed.

As each batch of clones goes in to tray #1, a batch comes out of tray #4 to be harvested, every 2 weeks.

The mother vegging area is in the same room with the flowering plants, but has a lightproof curtain to prevent interrupting the flowering plants' light cycle and has its own ventilation system as well. Each tray in both the veg & flower areas has its own pump, reservoir tank and timer, allowing the watering rate and nute mix to be tailored to the plant for vegging as well as during each 2 week phase of flowering. 

See my gallery for pics of the op in action as well as pix of clones in rockwool cubes and clonebox details.



*************************************

ERRATA:

I have not had to use imperial figures in many years. When I wrote this post, I estimated the size of the flood trays as 4'x4'. I estimated WRRRONG! They are actually 900x900mm or about 35.4" square. 

Somewhere in this thread I also estimate that the pots used are 8" dia- wrong again. They are 175mm top diameter, 130mm bottom dia and 175mm tall. They hold approximately 4L of media. 

Despite our traditional love of pounds and ounces, cannabis growers should learn to love the metric system. It is infinitely easier to manage litres and ml than it is to deal with gallons, ounces and worst, teaspoons, the size of which changes from country to country.

*************************************


----------



## ablazed blunt (Feb 18, 2007)

Around how many grams do you get every 2 weeks? Very nice setup.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 18, 2007)

Thanks for the compliment. The op makes 13-16oz every 2 weeks, sometimes more if all is going well. I guess that's 360-450g+ every 2 wks.


----------



## stinky (Feb 18, 2007)

me like.....


----------



## ablazed blunt (Feb 18, 2007)

There is 16ozs in a pound right? Yeah, so you get around a pound every two weeks. Thats two pounds a month. I don't know about you but thats alot of weed to me. You should start a grow journal. I would like to keep up with the grow. Goodluck and happy growing.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 19, 2007)

ablazed blunt said:


> There is 16ozs in a pound right? Yeah, so you get around a pound every two weeks. Thats two pounds a month.


Yep, that's about right.



ablazed blunt said:


> I don't know about you but thats alot of weed to me.


That's a lot of weed for anyone. Figure that the entire grow op fits in a cramped and tiny 7' tall x 8' wide x 9' long space. High weed density growing. 



ablazed blunt said:


> You should start a grow journal. I would like to keep up with the grow. Goodluck and happy growing.


I don't know if I want to do a running journal- the op does the same thing all the time... and I AM a fricken lazy stoner. 

I will add some pics of the mums when they are next ready for cuttings and also the clones as they set root. I've just rebuilt the op so the 4th table (for wks 6-8 ) is not presently installed, so I could do some pix of that when it goes in as well. 

Thanks for your interest. I'm happy to answer queries about the op. Anyone should be able to duplicate this op and its performance.


----------



## ablazed blunt (Feb 19, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I don't know if I want to do a running journal- the op does the same thing all the time...


You could do a a two week journal? What kind of plants are you growing?

I think you have six mothers? Well when you take 30 clones from them how long does it take for more to grow back. I know it has to be least then two weeks. I read about your kind of setup before in a book I got but I have never seen anyone really do it. Your grow beds, its soil right? No kind of hydroponics or anything? Well dam, your doing very good for yourself. Keep up the nice work. Happy growing.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 19, 2007)

ablazed blunt said:


> You could do a a two week journal?


sounds like work. 



ablazed blunt said:


> What kind of plants are you growing?


Sweet Tooth #4 from Spice of Life Seeds



ablazed blunt said:


> I think you have six mothers? Well when you take 30 clones from them how long does it take for more to grow back. I know it has to be least then two weeks.


Takes almost exactly 15 days for the mums to regrow. They'll have new material about 20" tall in that time. I raise MUCH more mum material than I need. I compost about 2/3 of the new material from each mum each time I do a pass of cuttings. However, overgrowing the mums this way, I am assured of healthy, thick stems for top performing clones. The fatter the better. 



ablazed blunt said:


> I read about your kind of setup before in a book I got but I have never seen anyone really do it.


I'm sure there's nothing new under the sun (or the lights). Everyone has probably tried everything once. I just happened on this arrangement through necessity. I wanted buds every 2 weeks- and the op just followed suit. 



ablazed blunt said:


> Your grow beds, its soil right? No kind of hydroponics or anything? Well dam, your doing very good for yourself. Keep up the nice work. Happy growing.


It is a flood hydro system, even for the mums. 5 trays total, 5 tanks. Cuttings are rooted in rockwool cubes. I use 8" plastic pots stuffed with loose rockwool for raising plants. See pics in my gallery. No soil- no thanks.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 6, 2007)

are you growing in dirt or hydro, sorry first post i grow in hydro dwc at the moment, have been looking for someone with sog experience to get some info on it for next grow. Right now I have six plants about 3 week into flower 3 northern lights and 3 ppp. been wanting to do a sog for a while but havent found the right info, I built an aero setup but can scrap that for the right sog info, any help would be apprecieated, thanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 7, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> are you growing in dirt or hydro,


see immediately previous post.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 8, 2007)

ok sorry about missing that one, but do you have a seperate res for each table, what kind of nutes are you using, I'm using flora nova grow/bloom with overdrive at the last three weeks of bloom. because I could setup a flood and drain very easily but just need o know about the res and a few other variables, thank you for you quick response, very much apprecieated.


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 8, 2007)

I know a little about this, probably like everyone else, I've read a bit on it.
In fact, this is exactly what NGT and I were talking about a while back, except tailored to soil, I think you could get by with 6" square pots using soil, which would give you 4 plants per sq ft.
You know, from where I sit, the square pots are hard to find. I may go to home depot today and look. I know htg dosent have them.
I think I messed up by not taking cuttings earlier in my grow, so now i have to do another grow, and take cuttings earlier, so I can maintain a mother.
I wonder using this method, and a 430 watt hps if I could maintain 16 plants? 4 plants at each interval, and I could harvest a qp every two weeks?
Of course if that works, I'd end up needing to improve on it too! lol
Peace.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 8, 2007)

kind of what I was thinking was to build 4 separate [email protected] tables all with the same size lid and just swap the lids to each table every two weeks, do you think that would work with say four to six plants?


----------



## ChillWill151 (Mar 8, 2007)

Hey i was thinking of cloning my plants too, but i was wondering if u need to give the mothers any special treatment after u cut them?


----------



## mogie (Mar 8, 2007)

Be careful crowding your plants invites disease. Keeping your envirnoment sterile is very important. That includes all items used like mositure wands, scissors, etc. This is meant for all of us. I am sure we could all do better when it comes to a clean grow area.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 8, 2007)

even still this is one of the most informative posts i've read on all the forums out there, cant say for o.g. because I was never on that forum but I do check with pretty much all of them, been laid off for two months have had a lot of time on my hands, but even for such a short thread it is very informative. Thanks all


----------



## cali-high (Mar 8, 2007)

how many plants do you have at one time?


i was planning on doing something simular to this


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 8, 2007)

well normally between 6 and 8 in a dwc but I built an aero setup that I was planning to use next grow but undecided about doing a sog or doing an aero grow next, have been wanting to do a sog for a long time but hesitating to do a sog because of no experience with it and would hate to have a fucked up grow possibly, times with no weed suck, only thing making me want to do it this time is I'm probably going to get a good yeild this round, plus I also grow at my neighbors place as he wanted a setup, believe it or not I grow better at his place, cant figure that out, we dont fuck with the plants there as much as I do at my place and the yeilds we get off those plants(PPP) are just unreal, I dont know what I'm going to do next grow but whatever it is I really appreciate all the info on this thread


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 9, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> ok sorry about missing that one, but do you have a seperate res for each table,


Yes, 1 tank per tray. Each tray is about 4' square, holds ~20 8" dia pots. Trays flood to about 3" (150mm) deep. Each tray does have its own tank so the nute mix can be suited to a plant in a specific 2-week time band in the flowering cycle. Tank/tray 1 is mixed for just-rooted cuttings, from week 0-2. Tank/tray 2 is for week 2-4 and gets a slightly stronger mix than #1. Also gets a dose of Canna PK-13-14 in wk 3. 

Tanks are a little bigger than they actually *have* to be to keep the pumps submerged while flooding the trays (could probably be as small as about 70 litres) but I use 125 litre tanks, just plain old plastic storage containers. 

The mothers are in a very small tray (about 1' x 4') with a 35-40 litre tank.



akidynoken said:


> what kind of nutes are you using,


Canna Vega Substra for the mothers, Canna Flores Substra for flowering, Canna PK-13-14 phosphorus additive in wk 3-4. Pathogen control with hydrogen peroxide (50% strength) @ 1ml/litre every 3-4 days when topping up tanks with plain tap water... and nothing else. No wacky magic sauces, no crazy beeswax and brewers yeast additives or other silliness. 

I even find I have no general need to adjust pH after mixing up with Canna nutes- pH is always right on 5.6. pH may bump a little after a couple of top-ups but rarely goes above 5.8.

Not mentioned in my setup data is the ventilation system. Veg and flower have independent air systems which can change the whole air volume in each every 2-3 mins. With 2kW of lights in the flowering area, this is about the minimum needed to keep temps stable without using aircon. 

There's oscillating circ fans in every corner of the flowering area and a fluorsescent UV ioniser (with light trap) which runs 30min on/30min off all hours- keeps scent and mould well in check. A second ioniser in the area outside the room istelf guarantees no stray scents escape.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 10, 2007)

yes my flower area is about 34" deep by 49" wide by about 5 1/2feet tall and my veg area is same but diff height, if I was to do a sog do you think that there is enough room to do it perpetually? if so how many plants per harvest? Dont like to ask so many questions but other than trial and ERROR thats the best way to learn


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2007)

Sorry guys, just catching up on replying to queries in this thread. Just a tick busy these days.



akidynoken said:


> kind of what I was thinking was to build 4 separate [email protected] tables all with the same size lid and just swap the lids to each table every two weeks, do you think that would work with say four to six plants?


You can do that if you like. You don't really need to physically move the plants; you can just change the nutrient mix in each individual tank every two weeks to suit the different phase of flowering.

I move my plants from tray to tray every 2 weeks as it gives me an opportunity to clean the trays, but they really don't have to be moved. They could stay put until that particular tray is ready to be harvested.

I do find the 'production line' style makes it a little easier to keep track of what mix to put in which tank, though. I know tank #1 will always get mixed to 900-1100ppm, tank 2 will be 1300-1500ppm + whatever the PK-13-14 bumps it up to in week 3. Tank 3 gets 1300-1500ppm, no PK, and tank 4 can be simply pH adjusted tap water- but I usually don't bother with flushing in the last week as many recommend. I don't notice any difference between buds from plants which had plain water in the last week and those which just continued to get a 1300-1500ppm Flores mix up until harvest day.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2007)

ChillWill151 said:


> Hey i was thinking of cloning my plants too, but i was wondering if u need to give the mothers any special treatment after u cut them?


Nope- the mothers need very little attention. Once I have done 3-4 passes of cuttings from a particular mother (about 2 mos worth of cuttings), I discard that mother plant and replace it with a successfully rooted new cutting. It will be ready to take cuttings from in about 2 weeks.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2007)

mogie said:


> Be careful crowding your plants invites disease. Keeping your envirnoment sterile is very important. That includes all items used like mositure wands, scissors, etc. This is meant for all of us. I am sure we could all do better when it comes to a clean grow area.


While my plants LOOK like they are crowded in, they really are not. Keep in mind that I trim off all branching from about the lower 1/3 of the mainstem. This gets rid of small branches and the small buds they produce. The biggest buds form on the mainstem itself. Removing all the branching also improves the airflow between the plants.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> even still this is one of the most informative posts i've read on all the forums out there, cant say for o.g. because I was never on that forum but I do check with pretty much all of them, been laid off for two months have had a lot of time on my hands, but even for such a short thread it is very informative. Thanks all


I'm a former OG poster (in fact, a former OG moderator). This op was featured in a 'sticky' OG thread for a couple of years before the site was taken down. 

I could make this thread much more involved and detailed, but there's no data omitted that anyone really needs. SOG isn't at all difficult. My only innovation is putting in 4 individual trays in the flowering area. So it happens, the flowering cycle is 8 weeks and it's convenient to move the plants from tray to tray every 2 weeks as newly rooted cuttings go in and plants ready to harvest come out. 

The main points that newbs need to take from this are: 

a) to put newly rooted clones in to flower with NO veg time outside of being in the clone box (which runs 24/7 fluoro light). This makes the individual plants wind up being about 33-36" tall at wk 8 (they stop gaining height in wk 3-4 of 12/12 light), ideally suited for the foliar penetration ability of HPS lighting. 

b) remove all branching from the lower 1/3 of the mainstem - this allows a maximum number of plants in the available space without crowding, as well as getting rid of little buds and forcing the plant to spend its energy on making the fatter ones.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2007)

cali-high said:


> how many plants do you have at one time?


umm... more than one. 

Each 4x4' tray in the flowering area holds about 20-23 pots. There's about 5-8 mothers at any given moment. I usually do 30 cuttings in each batch. So, math it out! Ought to be somewhere between 85 at minimum to a maximum trayspace and clonebox cpacity of about 144 in various stages of development.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> yes my flower area is about 34" deep by 49" wide by about 5 1/2feet tall and my veg area is same but diff height, if I was to do a sog do you think that there is enough room to do it perpetually? if so how many plants per harvest? Dont like to ask so many questions but other than trial and ERROR thats the best way to learn


Each tray in the flowering area holds about 20-23 plants, so that's how many are coming out every 2 weeks, as an equal number of newly rooted clones are fed in to the area. 

Don't waste much space on vegging. There's no need to veg any plants other than the mothers. Clones intended for flowering should definitely NOT be vegged as this will cause them to be too tall. My mums live in a roughly 1' x 5' space under a 400W HPS. 

You can scale my op to any size you like. The limitation is the amount of area you have under lights. If you do crowd in too many plants for your available space (and I'm not sure what the ideal plant count for your space will be- should be something like 8-10" square lighted floor/trayspace per plant), yields will suffer and powdery mildew will become a problem. As I use 8" dia x 8" tall pots, I guess I'm giving each plant in the flowering area about an 8" circle to live in.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2007)

I have added a pic to my gallery of what the mums look like 2 weeks after doing a batch of cuts. 

Just after cuts:







and again 2 weeks later when they are ready to donate another batch of cuttings:


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 12, 2007)

right now i have 2 400 hps in a homemade air cooled fixture, do you think it would be better to split up the lights and put 1 400 above weeks 0-4 and put a 1000 hps above weeks 4-8 I can do this but it will be some more work or do you think it will work to just switch out the 2 400's and replace with the 1000 and be ok, I just want to do it right. Thank you all your input is just what I need!


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 12, 2007)

would it possible to to a setup using dwc say in 4-14 gal rubbermaid containers, that might be more easy for me, and then maybe just move to tops of the containers every two weeks, if I dont have to split the lights up that would also be easier to, but would if I had to, just a quick thought!


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 12, 2007)

was just reading in another forum it say's something like veg nutes in the first two weeks is that right because I dont want to mess things up especially that early in the game.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 14, 2007)

Its a done deal, I'm going to do a sog grow starting my next grow which will be in about a month because I'm in about the 4th week of flower with my present grow, well hope all is well with everyone, peace love and hair grease!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2007)

> right now i have 2 400 hps in a homemade air cooled fixture, do you think it would be better to split up the lights and put 1 400 above weeks 0-4 and put a 1000 hps above weeks 4-8 I can do this but it will be some more work or do you think it will work to just switch out the 2 400's and replace with the 1000 and be ok, I just want to do it right.


I prefer 1000w lights for flowering as they produce the best bud density. A single 1000 HPS will light a pair of 4' x 4' flood trays with no drama if you prune the branching from the lower 1/3 of the plant. 

If you need cuttings every 2 weeks, use a 250-400W HPS or MH on your mums. 



> would it possible to to a setup using dwc say in 4-14 gal rubbermaid containers, that might be more easy for me, and then maybe just move to tops of the containers every two weeks, if I dont have to split the lights up that would also be easier


If you're experienced with DWC, sure, do it. DWC can be a bit fiddly. However, if you're totally new to hydro, do a flood & drain system and use loose rockwool media in plastic pots. SO much less to go wrong. So much more forgiving when something DOES go wrong.



> veg nutes in the first two weeks


Not necessary. Flowering nutes work fine from wk 0-8 in 12/12 light. The photoperiod has a lot more to do with growth phase than the NPK balance of the nutes. Yes, do use a high-N nute for the mums, but once in flower, a high-P (flowering) nute is ok. 

When I put a fresh clone in to flower, it has only known 24 hour daylight, either on the mum plant or in the clone box. It takes about 3 weeks in 12/12 to switch _*fully*_ from vegetative to flowering mode, even on high-P nutes. The plants will grow vegetatively for a few weeks on 12/12 but will stop gaining height at wk 3-4 all by themselves at about 1 metre tall.

I wouldn't want to encourage any more height with veg nutes while I'm trying to flower. "Short" (compared to a natural plant grown outdoors, which may get to 3m tall) plants work better under artificial light for indoor growers.



> Its a done deal, I'm going to do a sog grow starting my next grow


SoG is the most space efficient, highest production way to grow indoors. Make sure your mums are good and healthy now so you can get a batch of clones into your flowering area as soon as it is emptied out from this crop. 

rotsaruck, dood.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2007)

videoman40 said:


> I know a little about this, probably like everyone else, I've read a bit on it.
> In fact, this is exactly what NGT and I were talking about a while back, except tailored to soil, I think you could get by with 6" square pots using soil, which would give you 4 plants per sq ft.


I wouldn't attempt this op in soil. The amount of soil required for one tray would weigh about 100kg- even before you wet it. 

SoG relies on growing a larger number of smaller plants- or rather, just the top few feet of a natural plant. That means you need LOTS of pots- and a lot of growing media. Rockwool is practical when you need a large number of pots because it's lightweight, cheap, sterile and easily disposable. Fresh, sterile media each time eliminates soil-borne diseases.



videoman40 said:


> I wonder using this method, and a 430 watt hps if I could maintain 16 plants? 4 plants at each interval, and I could harvest a qp every two weeks?


You'd be better off closer to about 12 well-trimmed SoG style plants under a 430. However, bigger lights produce more bud weight. Each of your harvests out of your 12 plant rotation will be 3 plants. If you're getting 1oz a plant, you'd be doing pretty well. Not sure what you'll get with just a 430. I get about 1/2-3/4oz per plant with 1000W lights, but can do better with more attention to the op. I told you I was a fricken lazy stoner.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 15, 2007)

well my area overall is roughly 3x4 so would a 1000hps be enough for the whole grow then?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2007)

A 1000 in a 3x4 area is overkill. Try a 600. 50 watts of HPS/sq ft is the rule of thumb.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 17, 2007)

100 watt is what I have it is aircooled and all so i'll shoot for more lumens/sq/ft


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2007)

Just keep track of the temps in the room. That's a big light for a small space. Allow at least 3' vertical clearance off your growing tips with a 1000.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 18, 2007)

well I'm running 800 watts in that area right now with this air cooled hood that I made, any time of the day I can put my hand on the glass and it is barely even warm, about 900cfm taking out the heat, Is a 1000 that much hotter than 800?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2007)

You'll put less heat into the area using a single lamp than with multiple lamps of lower power output. There's a certain inefficiency in all HID lighting- some power is wasted as heat. That efficiency factor is poorer per lamp watt in 400s and 600s than in 1000s. You can remotely locate the ballast, outside the grow room airspace, to mitigate that effect somewhat as the waste heat from that inefficiency comes mainly from the ballast. You have the aircooled hood happening already taking care of the rest. 

A 400 HPS will be using about 500-530W power input to the ballast from the mains AC. A 1000 HPS uses about 1100W from the mains. You could be putting down significantly more lumens with a single 1000 than with a pair of 400s for almost the same power cost. A 1000 has better foliar penetration and will make tighter buds than a pair of 400s to boot.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 19, 2007)

settles that then the 1000 will be going in soon


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 19, 2007)

This is wrong.Your power usage quotes are flawed, it largely depends on the quality of the ballast, as this could flucuate ALOT. 
Also your coverage is flawed too. 
You&#8217;ll get better light coverage with 2-400&#8217;s. better yet, 2-600&#8217;s. The great thing about the 600&#8217;s are they put out the same amount of light as a 750 watt HID would if you based it on the efficiency of a 1,000 watt HID. In other words, you'll get 75&#37; of the amount of light from a 600 as you&#8217;d get from a 1,000 at 60% of the energy cost. 

A 250 watt HID will illuminate a 2' x 2' garden.
A 400 watt HID will illuminate a 3' x 3' garden.
A 600 watt HID will illuminate a 3.5' x 3.5' garden.
A 1000 watt HID will illuminate a 4' x 4' garden.
You can see from this how 2 400's or 600's would be better than a 1000 watt light.




Al B. Fuct said:


> You'll put less heat into the area using a single lamp than with multiple lamps of lower power output. There's a certain inefficiency in all HID lighting- some power is wasted as heat. That efficiency factor is poorer per lamp watt in 400s and 600s than in 1000s. You can remotely locate the ballast, outside the grow room airspace, to mitigate that effect somewhat as the waste heat from that inefficiency comes mainly from the ballast. You have the aircooled hood happening already taking care of the rest.





Al B. Fuct said:


> A 400 HPS will be using about 500-530W power input to the ballast from the mains AC. A 1000 HPS uses about 1100W from the mains. You could be putting down significantly more lumens with a single 1000 than with a pair of 400s for almost the same power cost. A 1000 has better foliar penetration and will make tighter buds than a pair of 400s to boot.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

videoman40 said:


> This is wrong.[...]
> 
> A 1000 watt HID will illuminate a 4' x 4' garden.


Oh, of course, you're right, silly me. I must have been relying on the pot gnomes to light two of my 4x4 tables. 

Get out of your growbooks and run an op for a while (like about 10 years)- you'll find out what works and what is just a booklearned wank.

Simple as this- 50W per sqft of HPS for a flowering area is ideal, 40w/sqft will do fine.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Just to be clear, my op has four 4'x4' trays in the flowering area. Each _*pair*_ of trays is lighted by a single 1000. Works fine.

Absolutely false that a pair of 400s will work better than a single 1000. Due to ballast wastage as heat, you use almost the same amount of power from the mains- for 200w less light. A 1000 makes ~150,000 lumens, a 400 makes ~50,000. It'll take about 1100-1200W to run either a 1000 or a pair of 400s. Why would you willingly settle for 50,000 less lumens for THE SAME power input to the ballast(s)?

Silly, silly, silly.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

This little twist in the thread brings to mind a problem I've always had with cannabis growing forums. Because there's few really definitive cannabis grow guides- even Ed Rosenthal's older stuff is now largely disproven- everyone THINKS they know best. 

I'm not going to get into wankfests over 'plant available watts' or other such nonsense. When you go out to buy HPS lighting, you get one useful figure you can use for broad comparision- and that's the lumens number.

I'm going to claim I know better than MOST of the growbooks, for one simple reason. I've been running a highly productive grow op since about 1997 (with pix posted in my gallery)- as well as a few really ordinary ones for a couple of years before I got it really nailed down. 

There's only one growbook I trust- 'Indoor Marijuana Horticulture' by Jorge Cervantes, Robert Connell Clarke and Ed Rosenthal (ISBN 1-878823-17-5) though my copy, dated 1993 (_*and*_ autographed by my pal Jorge, can you believe it?) _*is*_ starting to show its age.


----------



## abudsmoker (Mar 20, 2007)

agreed 1k is superior to 2 400w it would take 1200 watts to equal the output. and a 1k foot print is 5x5 easy


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, SHIT. My entire photo gallery has been deleted except for ONE pic of my mums!

WTF?!

I delete pics from my local HDD after posting for security reasons. I can take more pix, but what a pain in the ass. 

Hey Admin, what's going on?


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 20, 2007)

well I went ahead and shoe-horned ths 1000 watter in my space, and it just raised the temps maybe 3 or 4 degrees no big deal, I've also got clones just about ready so I had to redo my old veg space with a 400 sodium just to get started whilst my other grow still going. when thats over i'll just move everything to it new home with the bigger light, never thought the 1000 wold be so much brighter than 800 but man it is. Cant wait to get this other grow started, as ive really been wanting to do this kind of grow, thanks for all the info, youve helped out alot!!!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

abudsmoker said:


> a 1k foot print is 5x5 easy


Thanks for your comment abs. 

While the 50W/sqft rule of thumb is the ideal, anything over about 35-40W/sqft of HPS lighting will give good results in a SoG op. 

The SoG technique, where lower branching is pruned off early in the flowering cycle, greatly increases the airflow around the plants and also reduces shading of the parts of the plants (that are not pruned off). You can get away with somewhat less than the ideal 50w/sqft figure because of the removal of excess foliage. 

The main part of the plant grown in SoG- the big fat colas on the top of the mainstems- will be getting plenty of light at 35-40W HPS per sqft.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> well I went ahead and shoe-horned ths 1000 watter in my space, and it just raised the temps maybe 3 or 4 degrees no big deal, I've also got clones just about ready so I had to redo my old veg space with a 400 sodium just to get started whilst my other grow still going. when thats over i'll just move everything to it new home with the bigger light, never thought the 1000 wold be so much brighter than 800 but man it is. Cant wait to get this other grow started, as ive really been wanting to do this kind of grow, thanks for all the info, youve helped out alot!!!!


That 3-4 degrees can be a problem... like I said before, keep an eye on your air temps. Use a digital thermometer which has a peak memory feature. Increase your ventilation capacity if you can't keep air temps under 28C.

Those 1000s are EFFING bright, aren't they?  Seriously, don't look at a burning 1000w lamp if you can avoid it. Wear a cap with a visor in your op to protect your eyes.

The 400 will raise mother plants just fine for you. A 400 HPS has worked for my mums for a lot of years, but one could probably get away with a 250 MH or HPS.

Happy to share any info with you that I can!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, SHIT. My entire photo gallery has been deleted except for ONE pic of my mums!


*sigh*

Here's what happened...

grrr...grumble... growl...


----------



## TillthedayiDIE420 (Mar 20, 2007)

Great thread AL B. you should invest in a digital ballast lower cost, more lumens, only takes 3 seconds to boot up the bulb unlike magnetic, when a Magnetic bulb is booting up it is using more watts then if you left it running for 24hours.... which is why a digital is better for ya, dont take this the wrong way it is just an idea, you've been growing 5 years longer than i have so ofcourse you know best. just something to think about


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Thanks for the compliment, TTDID420. 

I've been looking at the 'digital' ballasts (which look to this old techie like a variation on a PWM power supply). The better efficiency factor is very persuasive. No question, when it comes time to replace the existing units, I will very likely be upgrading to the newer type.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Now this is weird... all my gallery images except for a pic of my mums when ready for a pass of cuttings have gone *poof* but 2 of my images (which appear in the 1st post of this thread) are still there. 

hmm.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 20, 2007)

it is easy to control the temps in my space by changing the temps on the outside, the outside room is to easy to climate control, it is airconditioned and heated with natural gas, all the convience of home, right now it is 74 degrees in there, not bad eh. It is going to work, I just know it


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Yeah, sounds like a plan. It will work, no doubt. 74F is ideal.

The only problem with sharing the heating/cooling for the rest of the house is scent control. The whole house is sharing the grow op's air. 

If it were my op, I'd be looking into building a high volume UV ioniser. You can buy Ozonaire (or other brand) ionisers, remove the UV fluoro tube from the small PVC tube it is built into as supplied and mount the tube in a big piece of steel duct pipe. The UV tube will make enough ozone to knock down the scent even when dealing with a several hundred CFM exhaust blower.


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 20, 2007)

It is absolutely false, a 1000 watt light emits 11k lumens at about 22 inches, a 400 watt emits almost 17k lumens at one foot. 
17k x 2 = 34000 lumens, so you'd need 3 1000 watt lights to equal 2 400 watt lights. Hmmmmmmmm
I used these as guidelines only. my light is actually much closer, but I wanted to keep this fair. I am sure you can squeeze a few more inches for the 1000 watt also, but it'll never catch up to the 400 watt light. If it were me though, I'd be using the 600 watt light, not the 400 or the 1000.

Also you state that _"the 50W/sqft rule of thumb is the ideal"_ it is not the ideal it is the *minimum*.




Al B. Fuct said:


> Just to be clear, my op has four 4'x4' trays in the flowering area. Each _*pair*_ of trays is lighted by a single 1000. Works fine.





Al B. Fuct said:


> Absolutely false that a pair of 400s will work better than a single 1000. Due to ballast wastage as heat, you use almost the same amount of power from the mains- for 200w less light. A 1000 makes ~150,000 lumens, a 400 makes ~50,000. It'll take about 1100-1200W to run either a 1000 or a pair of 400s. Why would you willingly settle for 50,000 less lumens for THE SAME power input to the ballast(s)?
> 
> Silly, silly, silly.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

TillthedayiDIE420 said:


> dont take this the wrong way it is just an idea, you've been growing 5 years longer than i have so of course you know best. just something to think about


BTW, I'm not not real fussy about who is right and who is wrong. It's not about the people- and it's certainly not about ME. I don't post this stuff to be right or wrong, to be respected or not. I post it so others can replicate a grow op that works very well as a result of a a few years of trial and error and several more of smooth, reliable operation.

I DO care about what information is right and wrong, though much of it is bell-curve stuff. Not everything is cut-and-dried (so to speak); a range of parameters may work OK. However, if someone comes up with something that's just way out of the ballpark (or simply in error), I'll usually say so, more or less diplomatically.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

videoman40 said:


> It is absolutely false, a 1000 watt light emits 11k lumens at about 22 inches a 400 watt emits almost 17k lumens at one foot. I used these as guidelines only. my light is actually much closer, but I wanted to keep this fair. I am sure you can squeeze a few more inches for the 1000 watt also, but it'll never catch up to the 400 watt light. If it were me though, I'd be using the 600 watt light, not the 400 or the 1000.


Where are your figures coming from?

I'm referring to figures I have on some Philips and GE Lucagrow datasheets. Looking for an equivalent online resource to link you to. A 400 looks like about 50-58,000 lumens, the 1000 is 150-160,000 lumens.



videoman40 said:


> Also you state that _"the 50W/sqft rule of thumb is the ideal"_ it is not the ideal it is the *minimum*.


umm, sorry, that's crap. 

Your absolutist statement would lead the inexperienced to believe that absolutely nothing will happen at 49.994W/sqft- and this simply isn't true. 

Once again- get out of the grow book and into the grow room, OK?


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 20, 2007)

Your making me wonder if you've ever grown anything under artificial lighting. 
The lumens output you speak of is at the bulb, *not* at the plant, 
I actually thought this was understood. I am *not* disagreeing with your stated lumens, 

a 1000 watt = 150,000 lumens.....at the bulb, agreed?
a 400 watt = 55,000 lumens.....at the bulb, agreed?

As you move further & further away from the light source, you loose lumens.

Again....
the "usual safe distance" for a 400 watt is 12"
the "usual safe distance" for a 1000 watt is about 24"

a 1000 watt light emits 11k lumens at about 24 inches
a 400 watt emits almost 17k lumens at one foot
17k x 2 400 watt lights= 34000 lumens

Again....you'd need 3 1000 watt lights to equal 2 400 watt lights.
Silly, silly, silly.

Peace


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

videoman40 said:


> Your making me wonder if you've ever grown anything under artificial lighting.




You're not doing much for your credibility, bud.





(click for larger size)

Just for you, vid, the plants that you say can't possibly be grown. 




> Peace


Thanks loads for the insult and the disingenuous 'peace,' 'brother.'


----------



## TillthedayiDIE420 (Mar 20, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks for the compliment, TTDID420.
> 
> I've been looking at the 'digital' ballasts (which look to this old techie like a variation on a PWM power supply). The better efficiency factor is very persuasive. No question, when it comes time to replace the existing units, I will very likely be upgrading to the newer type.


hey man HTG is a very good site and has the newest digital ballasts which do not interfere with your eletronic items, PH, PPM meter's.
High Tech Garden Supply
i gave you the link for the bulbs and Eballasts.. i have 2 of these in there box's plugged them both in to test them they both fired up in 3 seconds then i boxed em back up ( i cannot run them untill i move back out again )

I hope you get your hands on some 

Cheers mate


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 20, 2007)

I've also got carbon scrubbers and ozone smell is the least of my worries.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Every grow op is different. If you live in a cabin 50 miles from the nearest BigMac, scent isn't your biggest worry. If you live in an apartment block, well... 

I like my UV ozone gens because they not only knock down scent but kill many pathogens. Replace the lamp tube every few years, otherwise set & forget.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 20, 2007)

well my post did not enter, anyways my grow room is not in the house, it is my clubhouse, so to speak, my wife calls it the doghouse but it is whre I entertain and it is totally stealth, nobody knows it is there, no lights even when the room lights are off not even through the intakes, exhausts to a different room, along with vcarbon scrubbers and ozone generators the odor it the least of my worries.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

TillthedayiDIE420 said:


> hey man HTG is a very good site
> 
> [...]
> 
> I hope you get your hands on some


Thanks for the linkage. 

Of course, I may not wait for a failure to replace my standard magnetic ballasts. I'll do a cost analysis and work out how long the 'pay-back' time is for the cost of a digital ballast based on the power savings. We'll see what Mr Wallet says.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> well my post did not enter, anyways my grow room is not in the house, it is my clubhouse, so to speak, my wife calls it the doghouse but it is whre I entertain and it is totally stealth, nobody knows it is there, no lights even when the room lights are off not even through the intakes, exhausts to a different room, along with vcarbon scrubbers and ozone generators the odor it the least of my worries.


Yeah, you _*definitely*_ have it knocked! 

I don't use the carbon filters as I dump waste air, already treated with UV ioniser, into a large building airspace void, many, many times the air volume of the grow room. This void has several vent points to outside. You don't smell any ozone from the vents as any scents have had time to settle in the void. 

The greatest scent hazard comes from utility meter readers. Not many are so enthusiastic as to report such things, but depending on where you live, some may be. I always borrow a trusted nose to check things for me around the meter location. I don't trust my own as I am a bit desensitised to plant scents.


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 20, 2007)

Please do not mis-quote me like this again, I never said that at all.
_"Just for you, vid, the plants that you say can't possibly be grown"_

What I was saying had to do with lumens at the plant, but obviously you missed the *whole* point.

It's no big thing though, I am not going to engage in an argument that will never end or that you'll never comprehend the point being made in plain english. (I even included a chart for your amusement) 
I hope you have lots of fun in your grow(s).
Peace


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Your technical information was lost in your "Your [sic] making me wonder if you've ever grown anything under artificial lighting" insult. I think I have fairly well proven that I _have_ grown something under artificial light, even if I had to make you eat some words to do it. 

Yeah, the chart was pretty amusing. It tells you a lot about foot-candles but not a lot about luminous intensity. It's the intensity that makes the bud density and weight. 

I'd put a 1000 up against a pair of 400s over the same space and at optimal spacing (meaning two separate reflector hoods for the 400s) any day of the week. The 400 simply doesn't do foliar penetration as well as a 1000.

If I was working with a space 1/4 the size I am now in, I might opt for 400s, but I have enough room for the 1000s, the plants and the airspace between them.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2007)

Since I had an excuse to go in the grow room, I shot replacement pix of the ones lost from my gallery in the recent technosnafu.

Tray #1, for wk 0-2


Tray #2, for wk 2-4


Tray #3, for wk 4-6


Tray #4, for wk 6-8


Ignore the cooked leaves... had a stray air bubble cause a water pump to cavitate and fail to flood that particular tray. My fault for not checking it for about 4 days in a row... but hey, I had an excuse... sprained my frickin ankle & was not moving real well. It's normally reliable enough to leave it for 4 days with no trouble, but the plants on the very corners of one tray were just a little too dry... 

Problem solved just by orienting the pump in the tank so that the hose coming out of it is close to vertical. Any air bubble is forced up to the tray when the pump comes on now instead of being trapped in the centrifugal pump's blade chamber. 



The clonebox is a converted shipping container. Lined with Coroplast from stolen.. errr.. _borrowed_ real-estate signs. Tough and cleanable. The heatmat is permanently set for 30 C. It was not cheap- this one is moulded from silicone rubber (amazing stuff) and has been plugged in continuously for several years. Note the ball bearing muffin fan in the upper left rear of the box. Also has been running for about 5 years continuously.



Watering cuttings in rockwool is easy as dipping ONLY a corner in some water (pH adjusted if you like, not totally necessary) for about 2-3 secs. The trick to fast, high strike rates in rockwool is to keep them only damp, never saturated or wet. 



I LUV my ionisers. Check out the HIGH TECH cardboard-box light trap! 

ok, that's most of my gallery pix replaced. Lost one showing the mother plants just after being cut, but I'm due to cut another batch in a few days.


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 21, 2007)

_"even if I had to make you eat some words to do it."_
For what it's worth you didn't make me eat shit! You should be so lucky.

Dude, this is my last post dealing with you, as you seem very closed minded.
The chart that you find "amusing" was designed by a world renown grower(CaliGrower), and a contributor at cannabis culture magazine. In an attempt to be totally fair with you, and unbiased, I sent the question over to her, to get an unbiased opinion(s) on the lighting setup. While I did make some mistakes in my calculations, my conclusion was still correct.
This is how I posed the question to her, and her response to it:

Hey, if price is not a factor, what would be better, two 430 watt hps lights in a room or one 1000 watt light? 
I looked at caligrowers light chart for reference and came up with this, tell me if it makes sense to you too? 
the "usual safe distance" for a 400 watt is about 12" 
the "usual safe distance" for a 1000 watt is about 24" 
Based on that I figured that 
a 1000 watt light emits 11k lumens at about 24 inches 
a 400 watt emits almost 17k lumens at one foot 
17k x 2 400 watt lights= 34000 lumens 
Meaning the two 430 watt lights are a much better investment than the 1000 watt light. 
Unless some of my assumptions are flawed? 
Am I missing the boat, on luminous intensity? 
**************************************************
I&#8217;d say you weren&#8217;t reading that quite right. 
One little thing first. Illuminance is lumens/area. When the area is square feet, you&#8217;re dealing with Foot-Candles. So, you&#8217;re correct for lumens/ft.&#178; or Foot-Candles for your numbers above, not lumens. 
The way I have the color-coding for safe distance on the chart is to keep the tops of the plants from receiving more than 70,000 Foot-Candles. Some like to have the tops that close and some like to back off a bit more. 70,000 is a bit aggressive for my taste and will usually discolor plant tops and destroy potency at the very top of the plants. With an air-cooled hood or at least a fan blowing directly on the bulb you could very safely have the tops receiving 30,000 Foot-Candles. I usually have a 1,000 watt light about 14&#8221; from the plant tops and a 400 about 8&#8221; from the plant tops. In both cases, you&#8217;re getting about 35,000 Foot-Candles at the top of the plants. The 1,000 watt light is putting out more lumens and the tops of the plants are a bit farther away from the bulb, so the 1,000 will penetrate farther. If you put the tops as suggested, 14&#8221; from the top of a plant under a 400 would be 22&#8221; away from the light and would be receiving 4,735 Foot-Candles of light, and 14&#8221; from the top of a plant under the 1,000 would be 28&#8221; away from the light and would be receiving 8,185 Foot-Candles. So, you can see you&#8217;ll be getting 72&#37; more illuminance 14&#8221; from the top of the plants under the 1,000 watt light. (See Note Below). This would tend to make you want to run out and grab the 1,000, but there&#8217;s a bit more to it. The light won&#8217;t go through a leaf or any solid object. So, 2 feet down a plant the light is shaded heavily by leaves. Light penetration is decreased by more than the square of the distance due to the leaves being in the way. Now, this would tend to make you want to run out and get the 400&#8217;s. LOL! Going back the other direction, the 1,000 is more efficient than the 400 watt bulb and is also 200 more watts. Now, you&#8217;re also talking about 430&#8217;s, which would deliver 60 more watts total, and would only be 140 watts shy of the 1,000. I like to spread the light out more and try to keep the plants more compact. This way you also don&#8217;t have as much canopy to penetrate and you can really grow a greater number of shorter plants. If it were my choice, I&#8217;d go with the two 430&#8217;s. LOL! We came to the same conclusion in a bit of a different manner. 
*I actually like the 600 watt light due to the fact that it is more efficient than either the 400 or the 1,000 and gives the best of both worlds for spreading light and giving good penetration. *
Note: The above might seem confusing when talking about 14&#8221; from the top of the plants, but I&#8217;m talking about the distance from the light as being 8&#8221; + 14&#8221; = 22&#8221; for the 400 and 14&#8221; + 14&#8221; = 28&#8221; for the 1,000. 

Another contributor over at CC added this:
Multiple lights will always cover a given area better than a single light....and possibly save you some electricity dollars. 

**************************************************

I am not sure if you'll be able to digest this info correctly or not, but there you have it!

Peace

PS, if you know me, or read any of my posts, you would know that my wishing you "peace" was anything but "non-genuine"...it was quite the oppisite.


----------



## abudsmoker (Mar 21, 2007)

videoman40 said:


> _"even if I had to make you eat some words to do it."_
> For what it's worth you didn't make me eat shit! You should be so lucky.
> 
> Dude, this is my last post dealing with you, as you seem very closed minded.
> ...


 
I see this here and on every other site also. you give a grower a bulb and a keyboard and they are a expert. Video man i read a few days ago while i am almost ready to harvest my first grow....... dude you shouldnt be giving growing advice if you are new. i have been growing in and outdoors for less than 5 and i still learn. you share alot of info. but your off on others. 

your light chart you posted is for standard hps bulb also. and i can show you yeilds that tell you 400 watts will slow the growth...


when you share info you read or someone typed it could be just another person like yourself that wanted to dabble in this hobby. if you have not tested and used these practices in reality, then you have nothing to really say. when you debate with stupid shit like when we were discussing electric consumption i think it was you saying 220 was cheaper. " 2 electricians said so" so it must be right.


----------



## abudsmoker (Mar 21, 2007)

videoman40 said:


> Your making me wonder if you've ever grown anything under artificial lighting.
> The lumens output you speak of is at the bulb, *not* at the plant,
> I actually thought this was understood. I am *not* disagreeing with your stated lumens,
> 
> ...


 
note videoman this cart uses a 400 watt highout bulb that has a initial 50k lumens. after 30 days closer to 42k lumens 

but your chart uses 1k standard output. not the 150k initial lumens. 
this cut and paste data doesnt reflect the 1k high output bulbs like the 400 watter


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 21, 2007)

I did publish the electrical information, and it was correct. Three electricians confirmed it, and a mod commented that 4 people have now learned something by the post. Obviously you disagree, that's fine too. I think you were suppose to be one of the four. I guess it is now three.

While the chart does use a 400 watt bulb, we were discussing a 430 watt bulb, (both bulbs are listed though) and I havent argued the lumens output he mentions, I went along with that....no problem. So I am at a loss as to what you are bitching about here?

I feel that I backed up my data with facts, if you don't like it, again, that's fine. But That is why I showed where my data came from.

If you figured out how to read the chart properly, you would see that it shows the 1k you are referring to, is the wattage, not the lumens. Above that it lists the lumens as 140,000 his bulb appearantly has 150,000, not a big enough difference to tip the scales here.

_"note videoman this cart uses a 400 watt highout bulb that has a initial 50k lumens. after 30 days closer to 42k lumens"_ What is your point here, that only pertains to the 400 watt bulb, and not the 1000 watt bulb? Are you saying that the bulb, as it ages looses 8000 lumens a month? My bulb outputs 55,000 lumens for whatever that is worth to you, not 50,000 or 53,000.

_"I see this here and on every other site also. you give a grower a bulb and a keyboard and they are a expert"_
Since you want to proceed with this attitude, lets go....I would think if I were you and had 5 years experience, and had some misconceptions, and someone came along and pointed me in the right direction....I'd be grateful!

The fact remains that since you don't get the electrical post or this one, is not my fault.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 22, 2007)

videoman40 said:


> I did publish the electrical information, and it was correct. Three electricians confirmed it...


three, eh? 

Your everyday ordinary electrician will be well versed in amps, watts and volts- but if one of them starts telling me the best kind of lighting to use in a grow op, I'd consider that person out of his/her depth- unless they've run a grow op for quite a while.



videoman40 said:


> I would think if I were you and had 5 years experience, and had some misconceptions, and someone came along and pointed me in the right direction....I'd be grateful!


Well, those of us with much more than 5 _*minutes*_ growing are _*not *_grateful for your growbook 'wisdom:' 



> Also you state that _"the 50W/sqft rule of thumb is the ideal"_ it is not the ideal it is the *minimum*.


(oh _*PLEASE!*_ save me from the 'experts')

...and even less for your disrespectful nature: 



> "Your [sic] making me wonder if you've ever grown anything under artificial lighting"


You can sod off now, ok? Your job is done here.

BTW, are your words crunchy or chewy? Got salt?


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 22, 2007)

six clones went into start the rotation this morning, i'm really looking forward to this


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 22, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> three, eh?
> 
> Your everyday ordinary electrician will be well versed in amps, watts and volts- but if one of them starts telling me the best kind of lighting to use in a grow op, I'd consider that person out of his/her depth- unless they've run a grow op for quite a while.
> 
> ...


*So now, you can eat them words!*


----------



## TillthedayiDIE420 (Mar 22, 2007)

> Again....you'd need 3 1000 watt lights to equal 2 400 watt lights.





> Silly, silly, silly.


Very silly indeed, If i have 3 1000watt lights, Two 400 watt lights do not equal the same lumen count, even using your chart's you can figure it out for yourself.

At 7' Inch's away from tops:
3 1000watt lights = 392,886 Lumen's

At 7' Inch's away from tops:
2 400watt lights = 93,544 Lumen's

Now two 400watt lights dont even compair to one 1000watt light bulb, and your trying to say differnt?
Thats bairly over one 600watt....


running two 400watts instend of a 1000watt is a waste of money.

I did not post this to start an argument, i merly looked up you're sheet and did the math for it.
There is also the Ballast, if your running two 400watt's thats two Magnetic ballast's that take 30 mins to fire up, during that 30 minute's is when the power consumption increases, it takes less electricity to leave them running 24/7 then shutting off and fireing it up everyday.
The digital ballast's have saved us there since they only take 3 seconds to fire up and give you the most lumen's for your buck.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 22, 2007)

> growbook wisdom? lol where did you get our original pic from? hmmmm looks very farmaliar!


Every pic in my gallery is obviously mine- especially clear in the ones addressed to you, hon.  

The garden flowchart is a very simple, 5 minute bit of photoshoppery. If you think it came from somewhere else, you're more than welcome to make yourself look even more foolish by linking to where you think I nicked it from. 

Grow up, bugger off- or hopefully both.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 22, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> six clones went into start the rotation this morning, i'm really looking forward to this


Coolio. Just keep popping them in every 2 weeks. In 8 wks, you can start taking 6 out every time you put 6 more younguns in. 

Won't it be nice to get smoke every 2 weeks?


----------



## FallenHero (Mar 22, 2007)

Come on guys...

Lighting is probobly the most argued subject around, and people are going to continue to argue and have different views, we're all going to need to learn to let others do whatever they think is best for their grow up, and publish their results. No one needs to go on a vacation, IMHO.

This was a constructive conversation, others can make their choice, let's stop the fighting, this is a great thread so far, let's not ruin it.


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 22, 2007)

Dude, you misread the post, it was suppose to be the difference between one 1000 watt light @ 150,000 lumens vs two 430 watt [email protected] 55,000 lumens each.
Peace



TillthedayiDIE420 said:


> Very silly indeed, If i have 3 1000watt lights, Two 400 watt lights do not equal the same lumen count, even using your chart's you can figure it out for yourself.
> 
> At 7' Inch's away from tops:
> 3 1000watt lights = 392,886 Lumen's
> ...


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 23, 2007)

as of this morning the clones are looking great,growing with vigor. Man i'm exicted about this grow!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 23, 2007)

Sounds good. Have you got a peak-memory digital thermo? Very useful thing to have. I have a few peak-mem thermometer/hygrometers. The humidity number is a very good thing to know. 

However, now is a very good time to relax. Try not to kill your plants with kindness. 

Your next job, in about 1.5 weeks, will be to trim off any branching which appears on the lower 1/3 of the mainstems- and do it again at about wk3. I have to tell ya, this was the hardest thing to train myself to do. Cutting stuff off a flowering plant is _*very*_ counterintuitive. It took a while before I pruned ENOUGH off the plant to make it work right. 

If you've pruned correctly, by the end of flowering in wk 8, there will be no buds on branches longer than about 1/4" on your plants and you will get just the fat top colas and larger buds which appear directly on the mainstems.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 23, 2007)

russ0r said:


> people are going to continue to argue and have different views


A difference of opinion is one thing- _*just plain wrong*_ is something else, russ0r.


----------



## FallenHero (Mar 23, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> A difference of opinion is one thing- _*just plain wrong*_ is something else, russ0r.


and that's going to happen no matter where you go in life, something i have learned myself to come to terms with. sometime's one side must drop the argument for his or her own serenity. Really - fighting so hard to proove someone wrong that most likeley wont ever think they are, is a waste of your energies, and i'm sure you agree. There's alot of myth and fiction out there, it's got to be left up to the reader to form their own opinion.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 24, 2007)

All true and fair enough. However, it's just a bit hard to sit there quietly and smiling while someone says something won't work when I smoke the results all the time. Naturally, smoking the results makes the smiling part a bit easier, tho. 

I think my case is fairly well proven, not too stressed about it.


----------



## FallenHero (Mar 24, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> All true and fair enough. However, it's just a bit hard to sit there quietly and smiling while someone says something won't work when I smoke the results all the time. Naturally, smoking the results makes the smiling part a bit easier, tho.
> 
> I think my case is fairly well proven, not too stressed about it.


then all is well, you have pics to back up you're op, and it looks great.


when do i get some of that smoke to test btw?

:drunk:


----------



## TillthedayiDIE420 (Mar 24, 2007)

well some one is mad -repin me lol i have like 7 new -reps fuckin people


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 24, 2007)

hey i'm not trying to argue with anybody here just trying to get the right info, by the looks of what you've got rowing, you have the info that I need, and nobody on any forum has given me the advice that you have, so needless of who or what anyone says, until someone can show or give pics at doing it better than you, I'll just take your word for it because it sure looks like you know whats going on!!!!


----------



## videoman40 (Mar 24, 2007)

Dude relax, I dont blame you for just being plain wrong. (that was a jab) again relax.

You have your opinion, and I have mine, if you looked at it with an open mind, you'd see that the choice is actaully a very close call. Having it this close, it really dosent matter. 


I was just trying to show you another side of the coin, dont take it personal. DAMN!

I've taken the liberty for you to review the point I was trying to make to you below, and you gotta admit, having two lights does have some benefits over one.

Let me repeat the main thing here, the difference between a 1000 watter and two 430's is very close indeed! I feel that when you factor in the difference in distance from the plants canopy, the 1000 watt light has to be further away, coupled with the benefit of two lights, using two 430 watt lights wins.

Using the chart, the 430&#8217;s at 8&#8221; put out 38,000 lumens, the 1000 watt light puts out 33,000 at 14&#8221; away, so, as you can see, this is pretty close. Of course you would have to double the total lumens for the 430 watt light, as there are two 430&#8217;s not just one.

So at 8&#8221; you have 76,000 lumens vs only 32,000 for the 1000 watt light.
More than double the light, that was the point I was tryng to make.

You can take it all and toss it for all I care though.
Peace

"I usually have a 1,000 watt light about 14&#8221; from the plant tops and a 400 about 8&#8221; from the plant tops. In both cases, you&#8217;re getting about 35,000 Foot-Candles at the top of the plants.
The 1,000 watt light is putting out more lumens and the tops of the plants are a bit farther away from the bulb, so the 1,000 will penetrate farther. The light won&#8217;t go through a leaf or any solid object. So, 2 feet down a plant the light is shaded heavily by leaves. Light penetration is decreased by more than the square of the distance due to the leaves being in the way. 
This would tend to make you want to run out and grab the 1,000, but there&#8217;s a bit more to it.
Now, you&#8217;re also talking about 430&#8217;s, which would deliver 60 more watts total, and would only be 140 watts shy of the 1,000. I like to spread the light out more and try to keep the plants more compact. This way you also don&#8217;t have as much canopy to penetrate and you can really grow a greater number of shorter plants. If it were my choice, I&#8217;d go with the two 430&#8217;s. LOL! We came to the same conclusion in a bit of a different manner. 
I actually like the 600 watt light due to the fact that it is more efficient than either the 400 or the 1,000 and gives the best of both worlds for spreading light and giving good penetration. 
Obviously 2 600 watters would be a better solution that either the 430's or the 1000 light.
Multiple lights will always cover a given area better than a single light....and possibly save you some electricity dollars"


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 24, 2007)

russ0r said:


> then all is well, you have pics to back up you're op, and it looks great.



All is indeed well... and since I have the offending party now in my 'ignore' list, I'll stress even less. I'm not overfond of using the 'ignore' feature, but I'll have a go for now as I don't have the time nor inclination to play silly buggers with growbook 'experts.'




russ0r said:


> when do i get some of that smoke to test btw?
> 
> :drunk:


Soon as I can jam some buds through this stupid internet connection 




TillthedayiDIE420 said:


> well some one is mad -repin me lol i have like 7 new -reps fuckin people


I'm not familiar with how the reputation system works on here- is it anonymous, then? Before they got taken down (and that whole trip was dodgy as hell... since when can the US DEA enforce US laws in Canada?!), Overgrow.com used a similar user ratings system (called 'karma' instead of 'reputation') but it wasn't anon. The nickname that did a +/- 'karma' appeared in the recipient's user control panel.

Just checked my 'reputation' - holy guacamole, I got 60 points off of a single +rep (over in my bud dryer thread)! Whoa. Cool. 

Too bad some ppl will abuse the ratings systems, which otherwise can give a rather broad indication of how close to right one is getting it in their posts.



akidynoken said:


> hey i'm not trying to argue with anybody here just trying to get the right info, by the looks of what you've got [g]rowing, you have the info that I need, and nobody on any forum has given me the advice that you have, so needless of who or what anyone says, until someone can show or give pics at doing it better than you, I'll just take your word for it because it sure looks like you know whats going on!!!!


Wow, I'm really happy my info is so useful to you! Thanks for the compliments. 

One thing that getting down and doing the job for several years does for your own knowledgebase is that it helps you assign levels of significance to the volumes and volumes of good (and bad) grow info out there. A lot of suggested grow op tweaks are seemingly sensible in theory and often supportable by various grow book authors, but meaningless to insignificant in practice. 

I fully recognise that I'm both cheap AND lazy. This mental 'filter' is useful to some degree- I have pared down the number of magic sauces and 'common knowledge' I apply in my op, working on establishing real evidence of effectiveness for everything I do. I think I've gotten it down very close to the true bare minimums, reducing cost and effort whereever it is possible. 

I've found in particular that magic sauces, even really EXPENSIVE ones, are very rarely worth the dough. I'm down to just nutrient, a phosphorus additive for week 3-4 and H2O2 applied to the tanks every 3-4 days. Soapy water applied to plants every other week through a compressor-driven, common and cheap paint spraygun is as effective against powdery mildew and gnats as most of the magic $auce$ sold for the purposes.

I've not sat down and made a list of all the hints and kinks I've picked up ove the years, but I'll try to jot them down in this thread as they occur to me. Been doing this so long now that most of the things I do in the op are just automatic. I don't really think of _*everything*_ I've been told over the years that's wrong, ineffective or just plain silly.

Stay tuned, more dope-growing goodness to come, I'm sure.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 24, 2007)

I apprecieate the openess and willingness to share the knowledge of what and what not to do like I've said before experience is the best teacher but it is better to have let someone else figure out the findings through someone elses trials and errors, let their experience be your teacher, that said thanks for keeping it going for so long


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 24, 2007)

no problem dood. 

My op is most certainly the product of others' experiences. I started out with a drip system using expanded clay pellets- which worked, but had a number of drawbacks, including poor reusability of the pellets as they are hard to clean once used. 

I talked to someone on a forum about using rockwool floc in plastic pots in a flood system and gave it a go. Found that the rockwool is a lot easier to handle and dispose of (it is simply melted basalt rock spun out like cotton candy, so can be safely landfilled), is very lightweight but holds many times its weight in water, cheap enough to use new media for every crop, eliminating media-borne root problems- and instantly doubled to tripled my productivity.

"Conventional wisdom" stuff I'm wondering about at this time is the need to heat and aerate tanks when using a flood system with rockwool in pots. My trays are flooded once a day. Fresh oxygen is drawn down into the rootzones as the nutrient solution drains out of the rockwool. Because I dose my tanks with H2O2 every 3-4 days, I'm chemically oxygenating my tanks, as the stuff breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen, some which remains in solution and some which dissipates to atmosphere. Tank temps don't seem to matter because rockwool is a very good thermal insulator. It is warmed slightly by the lights. Flooding the trays doesn't cool down the entire mass of the pot of rockwool and roots, only the bottom 50-75mm or so.

As usual, I'm motivated purely by slack. I've been running without tank heat since the heaters wore out and quit and a couple tanks without aeration since one of the the air pumps broke. Couldn't be bothered to replace them. Hated scrubbing nute crusts off the airstones. Slack, slack, slack.  

However, productivity and plant development isn't significantly different between unheated and unaerated tanks in my system. Could be due to the H2O2 and rockwool drainback oxygenation factors, dunno yet.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2007)

Sure- but I think you missed the sparks- all done.


----------



## potroast (Mar 28, 2007)

G'Day Al,
I'd say that you shouldn't have to heat a res unless it gets below 55F. And aeration is mainly to aid the health of the organisms living in the nute soup, and since you use H2O2, you shouldn't have many living in there. I never aerated when using chemical nutes.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2007)

Well, thanks for that... I'm feeling a little better about being such a slacker with tank heaters and air pumps... Not much better, but better. 

The reason always given to me for aeration was to deliver O2 to the roots. I had always rather thought that the H2O2 every few days was sufficient. 

Nothing's slowing down yet, despite months of running without heat & aeration... though I'll probably add some tank heaters when winter rolls around.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 30, 2007)

well my babies are just over a week into flower and they are looking great, I reworked some of my ventilation and even got my temps to drop lower than when I had the two 400's in there. Hope all is good with everyones grows, just got off work going to smoke one and go to bed!!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2007)

akidynoken, sounds great! If you can't keep temps below about 28C, let's talk about your room and fan placement in a little more detail.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 30, 2007)

no problem with temps any longer i reworked the venting from 4" to 6" man what a difference i'm back to 72 deg, its coming along nicely


----------



## fadrian (Mar 31, 2007)

Al, just wanted to let you know im modeling my grow after yours, except im thinkin 4 19"x25"x5" trays. if i grow my plants like you do, nice and small, do you think 6 plants in each tray would do alright?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> no problem with temps any longer i reworked the venting from 4" to 6" man what a difference i'm back to 72 deg, its coming along nicely


Hey, that's the way. Good going.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

fadrian said:


> Al, just wanted to let you know im modeling my grow after yours, except im thinkin 4 19"x25"x5" trays. if i grow my plants like you do, nice and small, do you think 6 plants in each tray would do alright?


6 sounds about right. If I'm visualising correctly, you should be able to fit 6x 8" dia pots in a tray that size. I'm doing OK with 8" pots, should work for you too.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

One device in my op that I haven't said quite enough about is the dehumidifier. Just a little 400 watt unit, but it takes about 10 litres of water per day out of the air. 

Before I had the dehumidifier, powdery mildew was killing my leaves as fast as I could grow them and the really big, heavy nice colas got grey mould (bud rot). This all despite a really serious 8" axial blower sucking air out of the room and a pair of 6" axials pulling air in. 

I've had this particular dehumidifier in service for about 4-5 years now. It started leaking some water a few weeks ago, so I took it out of the room to tear it apart and fix it. Slacker that I am, I didn't get to the job right away- 2 weeks went by. 

Guess what came back? You betcha, powdery mildew and grey mould destroying my buds. Little fungus fuckwits. Humidity had been hovering at 65-70&#37; without the dehumidifier. They reckoned that was as good as an engraved invitation. 

So... I fixed the dehumidifier. Some internal rust was causing water to drip outside the drip tray. Cleaned up the rust with Mr Dremel and put some silicone sealant in a few places. Working like a charm again, no leaks... but I suspect the steel frame which holds the condensation coils is gonna rust out in a couple more years. 

The fun part was that humidity dropped from 65-70% to 40-50%. Otta sort out the fungi.


----------



## acursedlie (Mar 31, 2007)

thats a shit load of weed. turn that bud into bills man. haha jk. but seriously, do it.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 31, 2007)

so far humidity isnt a problem, I had a case of p.m. but over the last few weeks i've managed to rid myself of it, I do have a dehumidifier if need be, I bought 2nd hand to make a chiller out of just' n case so if not needed for that I could use it for what it was intended for to take water out of the air


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

acursedlie said:


> thats a shit load of weed. turn that bud into bills man. haha jk. but seriously, do it.


Oh, I'd _never_ do that. That'd be... you know... illegal!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> so far humidity isnt a problem, I had a case of p.m. but over the last few weeks i've managed to rid myself of it, I do have a dehumidifier if need be, I bought 2nd hand to make a chiller out of just' n case so if not needed for that I could use it for what it was intended for to take water out of the air


Bung it in the grow op as a dehumidifier. Trust me. The dehumidifier was probably my most effective grow-op upgrade. Seriously reduced mould/fungus problems and added about 30-40% to my yields.


----------



## akidynoken (Mar 31, 2007)

all right i'll try to fit in there somewhere, maybe cut some vents to the lower area and run it down there, do you think it would pull any moisture from the air?


----------



## fadrian (Mar 31, 2007)

Al, so what works for you is putting the plants in pots (with hydroton as the medium?) and then the pots in ebb and flow trays? how tall, my tray is 5" deep.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> all right i'll try to fit in there somewhere, maybe cut some vents to the lower area and run it down there, do you think it would pull any moisture from the air?


The dehumidifier will be most effective if you locate it up fairly high in the grow room airspace.

I think you'll be stunned at how much water a dehumidifier removes from grow room air. In fact, if your dehumidifier has a small built in tank to collect condensation, it will fill up FAST. 

My unit had a 2 litre built-in catch tank and also has a float switch which shuts off the unit when the internal tank is full. I removed the built-in teacup 'tank' and hardwired the overflow switch to defeat it. I'm using a 25 litre jug, formerly full of H2O2, to catch the drainage from the unit.

You should also consider working out some way to attach a length of old garden hose to its drain and running that hose to a larger container so you can recycle the mineral and chlorine free distilled water that your dehumidifier produces.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

fadrian said:


> Al, so what works for you is putting the plants in pots (with hydroton as the medium?) and then the pots in ebb and flow trays? how tall, my tray is 5" deep.


All correct except that I use loose rockwool (aka 'floc,' sold in bale-sized bags) in the pots. My pots are common, 8" diameter x 8" tall black plastic pots (the black colour does block some light from roots, but high-intensity light will pass right through some plastics despite being coloured black), $1 each at Kmart.


_(click for larger image)_

Rockwool holds a lot of water and need only be flooded 1x/day. If you fill the pots with expanded clay pellets, you'll need to flood perhaps 3-4x/day during lights on. 

I'm not a fan of expanded clay; it's expensive, heavy and if you drop a handful of it, you will chase it all over the room. It might be re-usable, but not without cleaning and sterilising the stuff, a major pain in the ass all by itself.


----------



## fadrian (Mar 31, 2007)

great stuff Al, just one more question though, how early do you start trimming the lower third of your plants?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2007)

I do a couple of passes on branch trimming, once in wk 2 and again in wk 3.


----------



## potroast (Apr 1, 2007)

Yeah, Man, I snip the small lower branches about Day 15.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2007)

Stick around fadrian- we'll have you swimming in buds before you know it.


----------



## fadrian (Apr 1, 2007)

haha well see, my first crop should be due in a 3-4 weeks


----------



## akidynoken (Apr 3, 2007)

tomorrow the next set of clones will go in and the others will rotate and get new nutes, its amazing how nice they are growing, cant wait for the next two weeks!wow!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2007)

Good to hear! Do keep us posted.


----------



## akidynoken (Apr 6, 2007)

they went in and fr about two hours they looked sick but then they perked back up and look real good now, with any luck i'll be seing the sea of green!


----------



## TillthedayiDIE420 (Apr 6, 2007)

That was proboly Fdd, im not sure about this but i think the more posts you have the more it takes away or add's to rep. But you've ingnored him, Such a shame he is a nice guy who you would proboly get along with


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2007)

TTDID420, was that intended to appear in this thread? Can't find what you're responding to. 

fdd was doing fine with me until he decided to try to 'prove' my bud dryer couldn't possibly work because sixteen grow books from 1971 said so.


----------



## strapmupscotty (Apr 8, 2007)

i use roughly the same method but only have 2 rooms i use 1000wtt for flower and 400wtt for my mother i harvest half a crop at a time and replaceing them as i takem..i use 2 clone boxes and just ya normal fluro light like out of a lamp.once my clones have rooted they come out of the clone box and stay in the veg room for a week then under the 1000wtt for flowering i dont harvest as much as u but same i deah roughly i think i normally get 10 to 14 bags every3 weeks...


----------



## strapmupscotty (Apr 8, 2007)

i currantly just started a new mother witch i have put in the forums under regrow if any of u lads could hellp


----------



## akidynoken (May 3, 2007)

well its been awhile but glad to say in two weeks i'll get my first harvest from the system and they really look nice all covered in trichs, almost cant tell the plants are green, they have that much frosting!! Well heres to you Al, your system rocks!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 4, 2007)

strapmupscotty said:


> i use roughly the same method but only have 2 rooms i use 1000wtt for flower and 400wtt for my mother i harvest half a crop at a time and replaceing them as i takem..i use 2 clone boxes and just ya normal fluro light like out of a lamp.once my clones have rooted they come out of the clone box and stay in the veg room for a week then under the 1000wtt for flowering i dont harvest as much as u but same i deah roughly i think i normally get 10 to 14 bags every3 weeks...


Sounds great. 

Why don't you try flowering a few without giving them any veg time? Might make them finish up a few inches shorter in height but weight yield ought to be similar. 

I cut larger than usual clones, about 6-8" tall. My story (and I'm sticking to it) is that larger clones partly compensate for zero veg time for my clones. 

I suppose 'zero' veg time isn't _totally_ accurate as my mother plants are under 24hr light; clonebox runs 24h as well, so quite technically, as plants independent from the mothers, my clones get 5-10 days of fluoro in the clonebox while they are setting root. 

If you find that zero veg time works for you, you can shrink your veg area so it is only maintaining mothers and expand your flowering space accordingly. It'd also speed things up by a week you didn't spend vegging.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 4, 2007)

akidynoken said:


> well its been awhile but glad to say in two weeks i'll get my first harvest from the system and they really look nice all covered in trichs, almost cant tell the plants are green, they have that much frosting!! Well heres to you Al, your system rocks!!


wow, sounds fantastic! Thanks for the compliment. 

The best part is when you get the 'pipeline' loaded, you'll be harvesting every 2 weeks. 

The downside is that every 2 weeks, you'll be harvesting.  I hate the manicuring job... been doing it all friggin' day & I'm a little cross-eyed at the moment. Takes me about 2-3 solid 8hr days to manicure one of my trays. Work, work, work... but fuck, I could think of worse jobs.


----------



## GreenGro (May 4, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I hate the manicuring job... been doing it all friggin' day & I'm a little cross-eyed at the moment. Takes me about 2-3 solid 8hr days to manicure one of my trays.


By manicuring do you mean cuttina all the leaves from around the bud? If so have you or anyone you know tried one of these ardvark electrionic trimmers, and does anyone know if their any good?


----------



## VictorVIcious (May 4, 2007)

I've always assumed they must be expensive or we would here more about them.VV


----------



## GreenGro (May 4, 2007)

I think their expensive maybe 200 - 250, but hey time is money so I guess it may be worth it if it saves loads of time


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 5, 2007)

GreenGro said:


> By manicuring do you mean cuttina all the leaves from around the bud? If so have you or anyone you know tried one of these ardvark electrionic trimmers, and does anyone know if their any good?


Yep GG, that's what I'm talking about. 

There's a couple of different brand names and styles of trimmers. I've seen the sort that fit on the end of a shop-vac hose and have a rotary cutting blade and also some that look like a small table with slots in the surface and a rotating cutter & fan blade just beneath. Prices vary from about $500 to $2000. 

None do a particularly good job. They cut the tips off the bud leaves but they can not get in between the bracts to remove the leaves completely. If you saw my buds, you'd wonder how I grow buds without bud leaves- cos you wont find leaf stubs in my buds! The only way to get that level of trim is to do it with manicuring shears. 

Thanks for the suggestions, anyway, but I have yet to find a trimmer (at any price) that can do the job as well as the old manicuring shears.


----------



## FlipAPenny (May 5, 2007)

Al, 

How big is your grow room? I really like what I see so I was wondering what it takes to do something lke what you got.


----------



## kieahtoka (May 5, 2007)

hey generally how much is harvested off of each plant in the SOG technique?

And how long would the clones be vegging for?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2007)

FlipAPenny said:


> Al,
> 
> How big is your grow room? I really like what I see so I was wondering what it takes to do something lke what you got.


The whole ~shabang~ is contained in a 7' tall x 8' wide x 9' long space. Would fit neatly in a delivery van- with a very large alternator.


----------



## fdd2blk (May 6, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The whole ~shabang~ is contained in a 7' tall x 8' wide x 9' long space. Would fit neatly in a delivery van- with a very large alternator.



you can deliver that to my house.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2007)

kieahtoka said:


> hey generally how much is harvested off of each plant in the SOG technique?


About 3/4 oz per plant at this moment. 



> And how long would the clones be vegging for?


Zero veg time, outside of the 10-12 days they spend in the clonebox under fluoros.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> you can deliver that to my house.


heh, phone up FedEx! 

Some clever pot-jockey _somewhere_ has surely done a mobile grow op in an old truck or trailer. 

In a related topic, I've heard of several cases where ppl have put grow ops in old 20' shipping containers buried in their yard. Of course, the reason you hear about such things is that their neighbours must be intensely curious about why there's a 20' steel container, a backhoe and a crane in the dopey-lookin' neighbour's back yard one day...


----------



## abudsmoker (May 6, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> heh, phone up FedEx!
> 
> Some clever pot-jockey _somewhere_ has surely done a mobile grow op in an old truck or trailer.
> 
> In a related topic, I've heard of several cases where ppl have put grow ops in old 20' shipping containers buried in their yard. Of course, the reason you hear about such things is that their neighbours must be intensely curious about why there's a 20' steel container, a backhoe and a crane in the dopey-lookin' neighbour's back yard one day...


 
Do you know who i need to talk to get this done. If i buy in bulk do i get a discount, Can the lay new sod for me?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2007)

abs, if you can find someone to drop a few shipping containers in your back yard, I'd bet the sodding sod is part of the package deal. 

When I think about it, a bigmuthafuckin bulldozer would probably be the tool of choice for excavating for your new shipping container grow-cavern.  

I recall seeing some joker build an underground grow op in some brilliant thread on Overgrow before it went *poof*. Did it properly, too- no shipping containers- he excavated and did reinforced concrete walls with steel beams for a roof at ground level. Wicked cool.


----------



## abudsmoker (May 6, 2007)

yes and to think most of us start with one light. then two ..... ya ya ya 

let me ask my homeowners assoication first. you think i should call the city before diggin. 

you the other side afterwards theres gonna be bout 40 yards of soil left over, you know people who got semi's too. 

lmao when you get this big you have definatly lost it... .


----------



## Schmoo (May 6, 2007)

You said you only use 2 HPS set ups for the 4 tables? Really? I would have thought you would need 4...One for each table.

Could you post a pic of your layout? I looked at your gallery but there wasn't any clear pics of it. I guess I just had a hard time believing that one light would be enough for two tables...Guess they're brighter than I thought?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2007)

Schmoo, the reason there's no long shot of my op is that I'd need a 180 degree fisheye lens to do it. It's really small in there... it's 7' tall x 8' x 9', barely enough room to turn around when standing between the 1200mm (about 4') trays.

Yes, there's a 1000 HPS over each pair of trays, of course, right between the pairs. The Adjust-a-Wings batwing reflectors spread the light over the rectangular space very nicely, thanks. By shortening or lengthening the stainless wires on either side of the reflectors, you can change the spread of the light coverage. You can also adjust the distance of the lamp tube to the reflector by way of a slipper mount to more finely adjust focus. In concert with the SoG style of growing, where branches on the lower 1/3 of the mainstem are removed, more than adequate light gets to all parts of all plants. 

One of the drawbacks to using a single light over 2 trays is that the plants in the middle can get a bit too much heat and light. I use the 'Super Spreaders' to block a little light to the very nearest plants. The 'spreaders' bounce some of this light back up to the batwing, although I'm sure this path is fairly inefficient. I think these devices are better called 'super shades' than 'super spreaders.'

The reason I selected a pair of 1000s instead of individual lights for each tray is efficiency. A pair of 400 HPS use only about 150 watts less than the power draw of a single 1000. The mucho higher luminous intensity of the 1000 vs a 400 makes far denser buds, further down the stem, to boot. 

Because my plants live in pots, they can be moved around as needed to even out growth. Shorter plants can be moved closer to the light while taller ones can live around the edges.

The actual physical layout is very similar to the pictorial representation in post #1 of this thread, which shows the 4 flowering trays, 1 mother plant tray & clone box.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2007)

It occurs to me that the small room size probably helps with light distribution efficiency. 

There's a tiny path between the pairs of tables, guessing about 8" wide, allowing barely enough room to stand between them. The other sides of the trays are right up against the walls, which are coated in white panda film. The proximity of the trays across the walkway is close enough that there's some meaningful sharing of light across the path. The nearness of the white walls to the plants reflects light back to the plants which would otherwise be wasted.


----------



## akidynoken (May 7, 2007)

yeah Al, my manicuring time wont be nearly as long as yours is, I'm only doing six at a time so it wont be all bad, but really looking forward to every two weeks, thanks for all your advise, none of it was wasted and I am doing it in bubblers with no troubles, same size buckets made doing the changes all to easy, as easy as changing the lids, you rock!!!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 7, 2007)

akidynoken, that all sounds great! Thanks much for the compliment. 

I'm interested to see how your bubblers do with yield. It'll surely be better than my flood/rockwool system. I've been thinking about converting to NFT to eliminate my rockwool. Results from bubblers will be similar.

I have to tell ya, there's some days I just don't _wanna _be a weed baron... usually about the third straight day of manicuring, when my left eye keeps looking at my right. 

I always wonder if the jokers sparking up my buds have clue #1 as to how much work went in to each one of those little nuggies...


----------



## FlipAPenny (May 9, 2007)

I am having trouble with what may be a stupid question. Once you put your clones into the rockwool you let them sit for a couple weeks. Once the clones are ready to be moved I see you put them into pots. Tell me more about your pots. How do you go about potting them and what's in the pot? Are there holes in the pots?

I know I hav been talking to you about the bubbleponics SOG but I see that you are using a flood system. What's the difference between the two and how would I go about setting up the flood system? The more detail the better. Thanks!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 9, 2007)

The pots are plain ol' K-mart pots, 8" dia x 8" tall, about $1 each, probably cheaper by half in a reject/dollar shop. These are common, cheap pots normally used with soil. There are drain holes in the bottoms of the pots, not large enough to let rockwool fall out but plenty big enough to let water in when the tray is flooding. Expensive, fully perforated 'net pots' are not only not required but not desirable in this application. The cheapo pots will block light to the roots where the netpots may not.

Floods are the simplest of recirculating hydro systems. Nutrient solution is pumped from a reservoir upward into the tray. An overflow tube cut to a particular length along with a second hose set the flood depth. When the flood cycle is complete, the timer shuts off the pump and water drains by gravity backward through the pump and into the reservoir. The length and frequency of the flood period depends on the media you are using. 

I am using loose rockwool, aka 'floc' or 'granulated.' It is made from basalt rock, heated to about 1500C and spun out like cotton candy. It has a consistency similar to dense fibreglass insulation (rockwool makes very _good_ insulation, BTW), with lots of air spaces. An 8" pot of rockwool will hold close to 2 litres of water, enough to supply a plant for up to about 48 hours if a pump fails. Flooding 1x/day during lights on for 5 mins is sufficient. 

Pots could also be filled with expanded clay pellets, with the rockwool cube used for cloning nested in the pellets and hand watered from the top for a week or so until roots grow down into the pellets. Pellet based flood systems require more frequent and longer flood cycles, on the order of 3-4x/day for 8-15 mins as required by plant size.

The pellet method probably gets more dissolved oxygen to the roots, but the pellets are often difficult to handle (drop a handful and you will chase them around the room for a while), are relatively expensive and while re-usable, are a pain to clean totally free of old root material. 

I use rockwool because it's lightweight, cheap, safe to landfill being made out of common rock and close to sterile if dry and well packaged from the mfr. It can't be re-used, but that's a good thing. No chance of soilborne diseases being transmitted from crop to crop. 

Bubbleponics aka Deep Water Culture or DWC grows plants with roots submerged in a nute solution which has a continuous air bubble supply from an aquarium type air pump or by an air bleed into a water pump. There is no better way of getting O2 to the roots than medialess methods like DWC or Nutrient Film Technology (NFT). Aeroponics is just bubbleponics with a lower water level and a lot of spraying or misting action in the rootzone. More O2 means better root development and overall plant performance.

The downside to DWC is that a nute solutions must be closely monitored and a pump failure unnoticed for a few hours (time dependent on a number of factors) can do major plant damage. 

SoG relies on a large number of small plants. While it certainly can be done, most DWC systems don't use an individual bucket for each plant. Plants are not as mobile within the grow room as they are in plain ol' pots. Being able to pick up a plant and turn it around is essential for spraying and easy pruning as well as to put plants in appropriate parts of the lighted space to even out growth. Mind you, soon as I mention that, someone will come up with a photo of a DWC SoG op. 

Go here for an overview of different systems, including animated images.


----------



## isabella2002 (May 10, 2007)

Thats an awesome set-up.Sorry if this is a stupid question,but how old are your clones from when you cut them till you put them in your first tray.Thanks in advance for any reply.


----------



## sk3tch3 (May 10, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> .... Mind you, soon as I mention that, someone will come up with a photo of a DWC SoG op.
> 
> .


 
lol believe or not i was thinking about that! .... the more i read and research it the more interested and motivated i am to try a dwc. ebb and flow and soil are good for now i suppose.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2007)

isabella2002 said:


> Thats an awesome set-up.Sorry if this is a stupid question,but how old are your clones from when you cut them till you put them in your first tray.Thanks in advance for any reply.


Not a stupid question at all. 

My clones take about 7 days to set root. The root systems will be developed enough (numerous roots, not just a single taproot) in another 2-3 days that they can be planted out in the flowering area. In a SoG op, clones are not given any veg time other than that they spend under fluoros in the clonebox. Soon as they have good roots, they get flowered- or used as replacement mothers.

However, since plants come out of the flowering area to be harvested only every 15 days, the clones need to idle in the clonebox for another few days until there's space available in the flowering area.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> lol believe or not i was thinking about that! .... the more i read and research it the more interested and motivated i am to try a dwc. ebb and flow and soil are good for now i suppose.


Ebb & flow in soil sounds seriously messy. How do you keep the soil grit from trashing your water pump motor shafts?


----------



## sk3tch3 (May 10, 2007)

haha sorry, soil for the mothers... that would be messy. my buddy ussed light warrior for a medium? but he uses a drip system not ebb and flow


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2007)

sk3tch3 said:


> my buddy ussed light warrior for a medium?


What's 'light warrior?'


----------



## isabella2002 (May 10, 2007)

How often do you change your nutrient in your four main tanks.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2007)

isabella2002 said:


> How often do you change your nutrient in your four main tanks.


Every 15 days. 

A recent change to 125L tanks has reduced the need to top with water to 1x week. The tank volume is now pretty closely matched to the water and nute consumption of the plants; ppm stays fairly steady as water is used up through the week. 

If the tanks are fully topped with plain water at the end of the week, the apparent nutrient strength will drop according to what the plants have eaten. I aim for 1300-1500 when mixing. Tank 2 (wk 2-4) is the hungriest. It will drop to 700-800 ppm if all the water volume is replaced at the end of the week. That's a bit lower than I would like, so I don't always fill that tank all the way to the top. I refill it while watching a nute meter. It will still be on 1300-1500 until more water is added. I stop adding water when it hits about 1100ppm.


----------



## FlipAPenny (May 10, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> abs, if you can find someone to drop a few shipping containers in your back yard, I'd bet the sodding sod is part of the package deal.
> 
> When I think about it, a bigmuthafuckin bulldozer would probably be the tool of choice for excavating for your new shipping container grow-cavern.
> 
> I recall seeing some joker build an underground grow op in some brilliant thread on Overgrow before it went *poof*. Did it properly, too- no shipping containers- he excavated and did reinforced concrete walls with steel beams for a roof at ground level. Wicked cool.


Do you think you could find more info on this and create a link to it? I wouldn't be able to do it myself, I don't have the backyard for it. I do think it would be cool to see if there are pics!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2007)

FlipAPenny, I'll look around, but since Overgrow is quite dead, I'm not feeling hopeful.

...but I DID find this, which is nothing short of astounding.


----------



## FlipAPenny (May 10, 2007)

That was the coolest thing I have ever seen in my life! There was a lot of thought that went into that operation, including having a childrens room. My only regret is that I will never be able to meet these guys as they will be in prison until my grandbabies babies are retired, and I sure as hell don't plan on doing anything that will land me in prison for any period of time.

Thanks for the post.


----------



## isabella2002 (May 11, 2007)

Hi Al B. Fuct.Please tell me if this is right.So every 2 weeks you harvest no4 tray.Move all plants within flower room to next coresponding tray,leaving no1 empty.Then put potted clones into tray1.Then cut new clones.Thanks for any advice.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 11, 2007)

isabella2002 said:


> Hi Al B. Fuct.Please tell me if this is right.So every 2 weeks you harvest no4 tray.Move all plants within flower room to next coresponding tray,leaving no1 empty.Then put potted clones into tray1.Then cut new clones.Thanks for any advice.


Yep, that's it!


----------



## isabella2002 (May 11, 2007)

What sort of setup do you have for your mothers,ie watering,etc. What p.h do you maintain,flowering and clones. Do you use humidome,clone wax,etc,for cloning.Only ever cloned in jiffy pots with wax.
Thanks,really appreciate advice.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 11, 2007)

isabella2002 said:


> What sort of setup do you have for your mothers,ie watering,etc.


flood hydro, 1'x3' tray, 50L tank.



> What p.h do you maintain,flowering and clones.


cubes pre-soak in 5.0 then clones are watered with 400ppm grow nutes @ 5.5. Everything else runs pH5.2-5.7



> Do you use humidome,clone wax,etc,for cloning.Only ever cloned in jiffy pots with wax.


None of the above. 

I've never used clone wax. Does it give clones that new-car look? 

I've never had any luck with humidomes. They usually keep humidity too high, especially when using rockwool cubes on a heat mat. I built a clone box with thermostatic control out of an old shipping crate, but it is ventilated with a 100mm muffin fan. 



Despite the clonebox being well ventilated, I never have any problems with low humidity induced wilt. Last batch of clones struck in 6 days.

Jiffy pots are made of peat, a dead organic material which can decompose and support mould or fungal growth. OK in soil, but I prefer to use totally inert grow media in hydro systems.


----------



## isabella2002 (May 11, 2007)

Question about adding pk13/14.Do you add to tray3 and just once with your initial nutrient mix.Do you add any other additives at anytime.Im using canna bloom.Any advice?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 11, 2007)

isabella2002 said:


> Question about adding pk13/14.Do you add to tray3 and just once with your initial nutrient mix.Do you add any other additives at anytime.Im using canna bloom.Any advice?


Canna's instructions say to only use PK13-14 in week 3. In my system, that's tank 2, which supplies plants in wks 2-4 in tray 2. The tanks are dumped and new sauce mixed when new plants go in to the system every 2 weeks. Plants in tray 2 are in their wk3 when that tank of sauce is a week old. So, if for example I put in new plants and dump tanks on the 1st of the month, I'll add ~150ml PK to tank 2 on the 7th. In 2 weeks from then, on the 21st, the next batch of plants will be in their own wk 3 in tray 2, so tank 2 gets dosed with PK again then.

The only other thing I add is 50&#37; grade H2O2 @ 1ml/litre, about every 3-4 days.


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (May 21, 2007)

Hey man learning a lot from you here my SoG is well underway. Need to separate my veg area from flowering though- where can I find a 'lightproof' curtain? Wouldn't even know where to start looking. Cheers


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2007)

A double layer of panda film hung over a 2x4 fixed to the ceiling, black sides inward, makes a purty lightproof curtain with white sides for the respective flowering and veg areas.


----------



## VictorVIcious (May 21, 2007)

And its relatively inexpensive. I bought the 100' roll.VV


----------



## abudsmoker (May 21, 2007)

our local shop is 1.19 Foot or 89.99 roll, this plastic is highly prefered over mylar


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (May 24, 2007)

Thanks...Panda film + staple gun + duct tape worked like a charm 

P.S, would very slight light coming through cracks and such affect flowering? I think its too subtle to make a difference...


----------



## VictorVIcious (May 24, 2007)

wooden clothes pins work great for temporarily closing off small light gaps. When I installed my dividers I left enough at the ends to fold over and place the clothes pins. When I need to move it, I just pull the clothes pins off and slide the divider out of the way. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 24, 2007)

OhYesTheDopeMan said:


> Thanks...Panda film + staple gun + duct tape worked like a charm
> 
> P.S, would very slight light coming through cracks and such affect flowering? I think its too subtle to make a difference...


Ideally, you have zero light leaks. In reality, you can probably tolerate a glow no brighter than moonlight for a few hours a "night."

Duct tape ain't what it used to be. Unless you've found the real asskicking professionals' gaffer tape (Nashua brand, maybe? definitely $20 a roll...), the cheap stuff comes off with heat and humidity after a few weeks. 

Patch gaps and light leaks with strips of panda film, glued in place with some plain ol' silicone sealant. Silicone never comes loose like cheep duct tape, but you can use some of the cheep stuff to hold your patches in place until the silicone sets up. 

I also like wooden clothes pegs (and Bulldog clips) for closing the entry flaps to the individual areas, but when wrapping your room during the build, cut the panda film WAY too long at the entry flap so you have to tuck it in place, eliminating the need to clip it shut. Also works well for stopping light leaks around the entry flap.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 24, 2007)

VictorVIcious said:


> And its relatively inexpensive. I bought the 100' roll.VV


Yep, me too. It was mucho cheaper to buy the whole roll than pay the shop's per meter cut price. 

Got the 3m (9ft) wide type. One pass over the ceiling then wrapped the room and made the interior curtain to separate veg from flower. I only used about 1/2 a roll doing this op... now I'm trying to find clever things to do with excess panda film. 

I cut some to fit a garden bed (actually about 10" wider than the bed & buried the excess in soil) and threw mulch on top of it. Cut "X" slots for the plants I DO want to grow. No weeds. Ever.


----------



## tstang5618 (Jun 10, 2007)

hey kinda new here just had a couple quick questions was wondering if you could qive me a run down of your nutrient schedule for your different flood trays maybe some info on how often you change the solution and any other secrets you would be willing to reveal thanks alot CHRIS


----------



## daddychrisg (Jun 17, 2007)

Hey Al, have you ever heard of using an Ebb n Grow system for SOG? I am thinking of trying that..I figure transfers will be easy when they are all growing in the same size buckets...What do you think?


----------



## micknort (Jun 18, 2007)

hey all and AL 
question for you .
i have just sprouted 2 so far out of 10 WW i have an area 3.8m long 1.5m wide and 2.1m tall.
i am currently just growin 4 in a grow tent 1.2 x 1.2 x 2.0m under 600 HPS with 24/7 drip feed in clayballs.

is it possible to turn my grow tent into my mommy and clone tent and use the remaining 2.6m x 1.5m width x 2.1m high and have my 600 HPS over one part and a 1000w HPS over the final stage .

wanted to do 12 in total 4 rows of 3 and move em up every 3 weeks so id be harvestin 3 plants every 3 weeks ?

thoughts Please ............

ok converted the lengths for you to help me lol 

2.6m = 8.53 foot , 1.5m width = 4.92 foot or feet ? 2.1m hight = 6.89 feet

so 8.5 feet long 4.9 feet wide and 6.8 feet high.


----------



## micknort (Jun 21, 2007)

*Every one gone on holidays?*


----------



## crazy-mental (Jun 22, 2007)

nice set up does it cost a lot to run.


----------



## cali-high (Jul 2, 2007)

what floro light do you have your clones under?


T8 T5?


how long is it?


how many bulbs?


im thinking of usingf a T8 4ft 2 bulb for a mother and some clones


----------



## VictorVIcious (Jul 5, 2007)

Well.....the petition drive is going well, just have time to bump this thread. VV


----------



## isabella2002 (Jul 23, 2007)

HI.What are your views on bulb life and have you done any research regarding this?also where do you get your H2O2?what size?How do you handle it?
thanks for any reply


----------



## VictorVIcious (Aug 19, 2007)

I have my system almost all set up now. 3 of the four tables are in place with plants flowering on them. Harvest of the original flowered clones will be in the next two weeks. I'm probably going to harvest every four weeks for awhile until I can get the mothers up and running, smaller clones take a little longer and the strain is ww soo... being the lazy stoner that I am I installed a system to distribute water to all of the resevoirs individually. No more buckets of water to haul. Because the outlet from the RO system is 1/4 line, I was able to do this using valves from an aquarium air distributing system. Eventually I'll use Mogies float switch idea along with a couple of celenoids to make it work automatically. That will probably be after I get that heater back in place and wired to a thermostat. Thanx for all your help Al. VV


----------



## freddyeverready (Sep 8, 2007)

FlipAPenny said:


> Do you think you could find more info on this and create a link to it? I wouldn't be able to do it myself, I don't have the backyard for it. I do think it would be cool to see if there are pics!


I found this today while browsing.. ebay of all places 

This will give you an idea of what it looks like... www.hydroponic-growrooms.co.uk - Growing Containers


----------



## str8_pimpin (Sep 16, 2007)

Help me out here AL B FUCT.....OK i was planning on doin something similiar to this. I have 2 250w HPS's right now and i was goin to have 2 mothers under 1 of my 250w hps. And IM GOIN TO BUY SOME FLOURO TUBES FOR MY CLONEBOX. Then for the flowering trays since i only have 1 250w HPS left to cover all 4 flowering trays how many more 250w setups do i need? Im only getting 250w setup because i can get them on sale right now for $35. Also you said you keep the mothers Vegging on 24/7? Does the clonebox stay on 16/8 or 24/7? Does SoG require a screen like screen of green? If so, what is the best method for me to do since i have 250w hps's and am planning on getting more? Also how big/how many gallon are the Pots for the Mothers and the flowering trays?

EDIT: Also after you takr clones from the mothers can you put the rooted clones with the mothers in the constant Veg. room instead of a clonebox?

sorry for all the "?'s"...lol


----------



## str8_pimpin (Sep 17, 2007)

Well I guess Al B Fuct.


----------



## potroast (Sep 18, 2007)

Well, Al B. hasn't been around in several months. He's Down Under recuperating from polishing off a keg of Fosters.





str8_pimpin said:


> Help me out here AL B FUCT.....OK i was planning on doin something similiar to this. I have 2 250w HPS's right now and i was goin to have 2 mothers under 1 of my 250w hps. And IM GOIN TO BUY SOME FLOURO TUBES FOR MY CLONEBOX. Then for the flowering trays since i only have 1 250w HPS left to cover all 4 flowering trays how many more 250w setups do i need? Im only getting 250w setup because i can get them on sale right now for $35. Also you said you keep the mothers Vegging on 24/7? Does the clonebox stay on 16/8 or 24/7? Does SoG require a screen like screen of green? If so, what is the best method for me to do since i have 250w hps's and am planning on getting more? Also how big/how many gallon are the Pots for the Mothers and the flowering trays?
> 
> EDIT: Also after you takr clones from the mothers can you put the rooted clones with the mothers in the constant Veg. room instead of a clonebox?
> 
> sorry for all the "?'s"...lol


Your 250w HPS lights will work great. Just figure that you need 1 for every 2x2 area of canopy in your flowering room.

I keep my mothers and my vegging plants on 18/6. My flouro rooting area is lit 24 hours.

SOG doesn't require a screen like in ScrOG. Since your plants are kept small, and close together, they usually don't need support.

answer to EDIT. Take the cuttings from the mother, put them under flouros (~10-20w/sqft flouro) until rooted and showing new growth. Then you can put them with the mothers to veg.

HTH


----------



## str8_pimpin (Sep 18, 2007)

thanks i thought i never would get a response. So how long does it usually take for the clones to root-up? and when i put them with the mothers how long do they Veg.? i thought that you take the clones, let them root under fluoro's then throw them into flowering please be detail about what time and how long for each process. what about the 2 week by 2week process. Thanks a million bro.


----------



## sk3tch3 (Sep 18, 2007)

in sog you can and would put the freshly rooted clones straight into your flower room. that will stretch the first 2-3 weeks.

if you want to veg them first then they will go with your mothers, for howeverlong you want. but usually this depends on your light setup. if you only have 250watts then you will lack penetration and will want small plants.


----------



## str8_pimpin (Sep 18, 2007)

I am going to germinate sour diesel seeds. When can i take clones? i heard i have to let it flower the re-Veg. to take clones. is this true?


----------



## potroast (Sep 19, 2007)

First of all, Al's system is using rooted cuttings for plants, not seed plants.

With a seed plant, you can take cuttings as soon as there are branches long enough to take and root. Then you can flower the seed plant, and toss the males along with their cuttings. Then you can start your perpetual growing.

Rooting a cutting takes about 2 weeks. They can go directly into flowering then, but they will end up very small. If you want larger plants, you will veg them for a few days to several weeks.

The biggest thing about a perpetual grow is getting the timing down. You've got to plan everything out and do each task on time for it to work properly.

HTH


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 19, 2007)

Thanx for being the designated answer man pot. I think Al said something about an injury. One other thing to consider if you are trying to set up this system is the strain you are growing. Al is growing sweet tooth(sorry forgot the number, I think its 3). It must mature with 8 weeks in flowering. 
Both of you report using nutrient in your block as well, which I'm sure speeds the process, and just plain makes sense, they aren't seeds the are 'genetically' at least four week old plants.
I'm growing ww for the most part. Flowering time according to the seed company is 12 weeks to maturity. So I use the system modified to fit my strain. My clones spend four weeks in vegging under 18/6 light, then go to the flowering room. Three tables in the flowering room, call them 2-4 if you like, and spend 4 weeks on each table. At least that is the plan. So far its working.
Part of the reason for the slow progress, was not *PICKING MOTHERS EARLY.* Its only taken my a year to do that. I have five of them now and will take my first clones from them today. Do as Potroast has suggested, it will save you a year.


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Sep 20, 2007)

Good pics, it totally drives the point home.


----------



## str8_pimpin (Sep 20, 2007)

ok well Victor and Potroasty i am not growing sour diesel. i just ordered Purple Widom from the Doctor yesterday. i hope it has the 8 week maturing process man...

EDIT: i just seed it has 8week thingy. but its not really recommended indoors....this good or bad? how long you think the flowering time is? heres the link Purple widow seeds - white widow crossed with purple power


----------



## potroast (Sep 21, 2007)

Well, it doesn't matter how long the maturing time, you can adapt the timing for any strain that you are growing. 

For instance, I use a 10 week flowering time for my planning, and I have 2 stages in the flowering room, so I start a crop every 5 weeks. I used to do it with 3 stages in flowering, so I did a crop every 3 weeks, on a 9-week schedule.

HTH


----------



## FilthyFletch (Sep 21, 2007)

Isnt it weird how each strain is so different in clone times. My usualy aero plants strain root in 3 -5 days max but Blueberry took 12 days and was a bitch lo. I cant image vegging for 4 weeks my plants would be hugs I go maybe 10 days max thats about 14-18 inches and full already then 5 week flower and harvest.Im doing aero and now an old fashion dirt but may bring 1 of my 4 x 8 tables out of retirement for old times sake lol


----------



## welshspencer (Sep 22, 2007)

Good thread Ali B fcut.

I love your set up.. if i was to copy the setup but instead of using 20 plants per tray only use 5 per tray giving me a max of about 20 plants in the cycle. and maybe 2 mothers and cutting about 7 clones.

would I still need to use two 1000w bulbs for the flowing room or can I use less? as the herp would be for my personal use, i would not require a lage amount of plants..

as I am new to indoor growing and SOG. can you tell me if you made you flood Hydro system or purchased one. there are so many diffrent designs. could you point me in the right direction for my kind of set up


Kind Regards

Welshspencer


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 22, 2007)

welshspencer said:


> Good thread Ali B fcut.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hope this helps. Welcome to the forum.VV


----------



## Altair Everex (Sep 24, 2007)

there doesnt appear to be any posts on the flood and drain table in the DIY section. either that or im missing it, if there isnt, is there a thread somewhere on here that someone can direct me to able the construction of such tables, and the pumps and such i would need to run it?


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 24, 2007)

well...I'll bfuct, your right it isn't there. I know I posted it, guess it didn't make the grade. I will not post it again, and I'm not a computer guy, so I can't link you to it. You could click on my name and find all threads started by... I think there are like two of them. VV


----------



## Xx4Duck2Man0xX (Sep 25, 2007)

thats a great system and this page will be bookmarked for future review, as of late my supplies are short on grow, and my area was recently discovered


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 25, 2007)

I like what I see from setting it up this way. It isn't anything different then the pros use. He laid it out very well for a small hobby operator. Unfortunatelu Al is spending time in another forum. If you read all the threads he has posted and follow the plan, you may want to stop by and tell him. I know I will be doing so. VV


----------



## welshspenc (Sep 25, 2007)

Thanks VV.

I could not find the section in the DIY to see how to build one..


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 25, 2007)

try tags DIY Flood and Drain.VV


----------



## welshspencer (Sep 26, 2007)

Thans VV..

My grow room will be 3.5ft x 2.25ft the height is 7 ft (normal Ceiling height)

Taken in to account I would be doing 12 plants, on the rotaion, croping 3 plants every two weeks.

Should I use a 400 watt HID or a 600?

and for my clones, of which I would be taken 5-6. I would like to use compact Fluorescent , would a single 20 w do for this. or would i be better of useing say two 26w

regards

welshspencer


----------



## Altair Everex (Sep 26, 2007)

what would be a good nute solution for this?


----------



## martyshoemaker (Sep 26, 2007)

wow this is an awesome set up! Def what I am going to model mine after, the 2 wk harvest is the best thing I've heard of. Mad props Al, couple questions though. Ur saying soon as the clones are ready, you put them right under a 12/12 1000w? And if I want to use soil and water myself this will not work? And I would rather do full plants instead of SoG. w/ light movers and maybe a lil LST pulling, is this possible? Ur thoughts are appreciated.


----------



## potroast (Sep 27, 2007)

welshspencer said:


> Thans VV..
> 
> My grow room will be 3.5ft x 2.25ft the height is 7 ft (normal Ceiling height)
> 
> ...


So for about 8 sqft of growing space, a 400w would give you 50w/sqft, and a 600w would give you 75w/sqft. Both would work, but the 600 might be too much.

But there's another consideration. If you have 4 rows of plants of differing heights, the shortest ones will be too far away from the light. You might be better off using 2 250w lamps, if you can swing it. That will give you many more options for adjusting lamps.

For your rooting, I think that a CFL or 2 would work, but they might be too much for new shoots to handle, since the light is from 1 source. A tube is spread out, so I use those.

HTH


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 27, 2007)

martyshoemaker said:


> > wow this is an awesome set up! Def what I am going to model mine after, the 2 wk harvest is the best thing I've heard of. Mad props Al, couple questions though.
> 
> 
> Its kinda like Al said, its logical, he does present it very well. The Two Week Harvest is dependent on the strain. That is, it _*depends*_ on the strain you are growing. If it has an 8 week flowering time then follow this exactly and it will work.
> ...


Now really. Yes you can do all that. SO what impressed you about his system? You like it and you are going to model after it, with a different strain, a different medium and use different growing methods?? Know what I mean Vern?? VV


----------



## str8_pimpin (Sep 27, 2007)

Do any one know if Purple Widow is an 8week flowering strain. I germinated 3 purple widow seeds today. and putting them in Red Keg cups under two 40w cool white 4ft tubes today. so 80w alltogether.


----------



## Altair Everex (Sep 27, 2007)

how do u figure out the strain? i only get street names when i get my seeds. like nothern lights, mauwi wowwi, citris and the like


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 27, 2007)

Those would be strains. You can always research thier flowering times by visiting a site that sells that kind of seeds. They will tell you how long it takes to flower in the description. THe best way if you don't live in cal. where I've heard you can buy quarenteed female clones, is to order seeds. Then you will be sure of what they are. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2007)

hmm, I head off & start using another cannabis forum- and my thread takes on a life of its own!

Let me polish up a few points gone errant in my absence.

You can use any strain you want in this 2wk rotation SoG, some will work better than others but anything will work. Indica dominant hybrids produce best on the 8wk cycle. I'm using Sweet Tooth #4, works well, could also use LUI, Skunk#1, etc. When I'm not in a hurry, I will let plants flower for 10wks, though I usually do harvest at 8wks.

I run 8-10 mother plants to supply 30 cuttings every 2 weeks. I pick the best 23 of those to be flowered. Leftovers become replacement mothers. Clones put in the 24/0 vegging area for the mothers take about 2-3 weeks before they are ready to start supplying cuttings. I lop the growing tip off clones which are to be used as mothers to force growth to divide. I discard mothers after about 4-6 passes of cuttings (2-3mos) and replace them with one of their progeny.

Potroast, you're a brilliant soul for looking after my orphaned thread.  Cheers, mate.


----------



## str8_pimpin (Sep 28, 2007)

OMFG Fuct's back..yay.


----------



## welshspencer (Sep 29, 2007)

Thanks PotRoast

I did not take into account about the diffrent heights of the plants, so thanks for pointing that out.

Thanks for your advice..


Nice to see Al B Fuct back


----------



## VictorVIcious (Sep 29, 2007)

he may visit, he ain't gonna live here. VV


----------



## martyshoemaker (Sep 30, 2007)

Can you please! put up detailed pics of your grow room? Stand on a latter and take some air pics of the whole setup, it'll be fun I promise, kind of like you're flying!


----------



## iwir3d (Oct 1, 2007)

QUESTION...

Why not do a 11 section grow? 1 section for each week? I know the mothers producing clones every week but you could take clones from later stages such as maybe wk 2 or 3?? if so then just eliminate mothers all together and do a more-so perpetrial grow? Then you would still get the same yeild just weekly. If you say 13-16oz every 2wk. lets asumme on average.. 1lb every 2 wk.. thats 2lb a month.. so why not turn that to 4lb a month? I know the light bill would be up there but its not that hard..

Would benefit alot more off that much weed.. also what quality weed does this produce? schwag? mid? or dank? or other?


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 1, 2007)

Man that is a great idea, why don't you do that and let us know how it works. Eliminate the mothers and add 4 weeks to the grow cycle, I DON'T THINK SO. If you are suggesting this you don't understand how it works. Go look at his thread on cloning. VV


----------



## martyshoemaker (Oct 1, 2007)

If my growroom is close to a bedroom window, do I need to have an intake and exaust fan? Or can I just open the window for hours at a time? With regular fans around the room. And yes the bedroom window cannot be seen due to tree coverage. Plus Izon will be working to get the smell out. With this will I need more CO2?


----------



## iwir3d (Oct 1, 2007)

VictorVIcious said:


> Man that is a great idea, why don't you do that and let us know how it works. Eliminate the mothers and add 4 weeks to the grow cycle, I DON'T THINK SO. If you are suggesting this you don't understand how it works. Go look at his thread on cloning. VV


I think your just misunderstanding me. let me explain better.

If a plant has to stay in a area for *2* weeks. Then why can't we divid that up into 2 areas for 1 week each? Doing this would alow you to progres each plant each week thus resulting in a harvest *EVERY* week. This only makes sence to me in the face that your harvest would be exactly the same just occuring twice as often. The same can be applied to using half as many areas. Instead of every 2 weeks it changes area we could do every 4 weeks and cause harvest to take twice as long. Get what I am saying? if not I can draw you some pics or something. I completly understand how this works tho.

Simple what I ment is:



> Originally Posted by *Al B. Fuct*
> _I keep about 6-8 mothers and do about 30 cuttings every 2 weeks from them. I choose the best 20-23 clones to be put in the 4-tray flowering area. _
> 
> _Leftover clones become replacement mothers or are discarded. Mothers are replaced one by one, about every 4-8 weeks as needed._


The leftovers becone *REPLACMENT* mothers. So your saying when he replaces a mother it takes time untill you can take clones? YES!

I think thats the part I missed. So keep the mothers. Sorry I wasn't clearly thinking that the mothers need to mature from cloens before you can take cloens from them. I was thinking why not use clones of clones during there 1st or 2nd week? 1 from each plant to continue the cycle. But I guess takign clones during those periods (during flowering) would slow production quite a bit?


----------



## Altair Everex (Oct 1, 2007)

if im understanding correctly, this is the problem...

if u use four 4'x4' tables and put them in a room with 2 on each side and a 1 foot space down the middle for u to walk u need a 8'x9' room, fine, many home owners can find that space. but when u double it to eight 4'x4' tables, u went from 64sqft to 128sqft, thats not something many people have access too. not to mention the amount of lights, pumps, and vents youd need for that room.

that would be my problem with it. i happen to have a building large enough for it, so running 8 tables that size is possible for me, but without that building and using a house, apartment, or even a garage, its just not realistic, wether it be space or electric bill, cause that much lights is gonna draw attention on the utility bill.

so possible, imo, yes.
feasible, 99% not likely

Altair


----------



## tempelton27 (Oct 1, 2007)

wow very nice technique. takes quite a bit of room and power but much worth the effort


----------



## iwir3d (Oct 1, 2007)

Thats what I ment. Altho couldnt you just grow 1/2 the plants? Since your going to be harvesting the same amount then? Just more areas and then the lights could be in middle of 2 areas? The point is to try and harvest weekly as aposed to bi-weekly. Tho it's not much of an advantage, your right. Hell if you had the space you could harvest daily.. lol j/k Math would tell us are eletric bill would be so high you could say it was stoned itself.. lol

well I was curious to see what people said but I see the problem now.


----------



## kochab (Oct 1, 2007)

so in the same thinking, if you need 30 clones on this particular setup then you could take 15 rooted clones and start flowering every week to get half a pound every week. could you not?
i mean take half as many clones to hold each week @ each table and double the amount of tables right?


----------



## martyshoemaker (Oct 2, 2007)

If I wanted to get 60 good thick stemed SoG clones how many mothers should I have? Under what MH light? watt wise at 24/7


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 2, 2007)

Here are some pictures for you. Marty, it should be simple enough if you read the beginning of this thread. Al keeps about ten mothers for this operation. He recently purchased a new 400watt mh light for them. You will need about twice that for sixty clones. They idea is to take large clones. 
These are pictures of my room on 9/30. VV


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 2, 2007)

This is all of the room I can get in one picture and bud tops at different stages of development. Your turn now. Draw me a picture. I'm not sure I understand it. VV


----------



## martyshoemaker (Oct 2, 2007)

Nice VV, looking good. Thanks for taking over the questions of this thread btw. Another question was that I am prob going to be using the aeroflo2 60 site AeroFlo2 60 site I am going to have 4 of these and use the same method here just switching the resivors to the different stages of weeks. The measurment is about 10' x 7' for all four. so question 1) they are not 8" pots, they are 3" pots, yet the roots hang down w/ room, thats how aeroponics work (I'm sure you knew that). Is that going to be a prob? Hopein not. 2) since the sq feet is similar to 4 4x4 trays, I am going to use 2 1000w HPS lights on movers to light them. Will this be enough to cover and light the 240 plants at a time?


----------



## freddyeverready (Oct 2, 2007)

Was just about to ask a very simaler question to this..
If i was to use a 4" pot aerponic system instead of the 8" pot flood and drain system, considering i'd be doubling up on how many plants was in the op how much lighting would i need ?

Thankyou.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 2, 2007)

You need potroast or fdd for questions about those system. No 2-1000watt lights even on light movers is not going to be enough. Garden Knome would be another good one for that size of operation or widow. The growing surface for those tables in 6' by 5'. That is about the max you will get for coverage with a 1000watt light. My suggestion would be 3-600watt lights or equivalent for every two tables not the 1000 watt. Page 26, Indoor Marijuana Horticulture, Jorge Cervantes. 1800 watts of power instead of 2000. More usable light because you can get them closer to the plants. I use t-5 4'-8 tube fixtures. I believe the are more efficient and I know there are less heat issues. Jury is still out for yield. VV


----------



## potpimp (Oct 2, 2007)

Man this is some of the BEST info I've seen here or anywhere else. I'm gonna get my sister to give you a BJ!!  Thanks Al!!


----------



## potroast (Oct 3, 2007)

Well, for simple light-wattage calculations, you can use watts/sqft of canopy. You want to have at least 50w/sqft, so for your 6x5 area, you'll need at least 1500 watts over it. Better would be 1800-2200 watts, so those 2 1000's will be good, for each 6x5 area. And since you're moving them, coverage will be even better.

I did a grow op just like this several years ago. We used the AeroFlo and had 256 plant sites and 8 1k lamps, and could've used more light. It was a lot of work for 3 guys, so you're going to need a lot of help.

Hope This Helps


----------



## potpimp (Oct 3, 2007)

Yeah, tending to about 100 plants per person would be almost a full-time job!! I can't believe how much of my time my little grow is taking, checking the pH, adjusting the pH, checking the nutes, unclogging the hoses, making sure the water and air is coming out, making sure the lights are the right height above the plants, making sure the air and water temp is within reason, changing the water every week and doing it all again. But I love it and I'm gonna have some blueberry in two months!!


----------



## welshspencer (Oct 7, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I wouldn't attempt this op in soil. The amount of soil required for one tray would weigh about 100kg- even before you wet it.
> 
> SoG relies on growing a larger number of smaller plants- or rather, just the top few feet of a natural plant. That means you need LOTS of pots- and a lot of growing media. Rockwool is practical when you need a large number of pots because it's lightweight, cheap, sterile and easily disposable. Fresh, sterile media each time eliminates soil-borne diseases.
> 
> ...


 
Do you mean one 430 light over the 12 or two 430


----------



## welshspencer (Oct 7, 2007)

Hi all

I was looking at the DIy section under Grow FAQ.. looking at the ebb and flow system.

it has a filldrain and a overflow fitting. looking at the picture can someone please tell me if the black and blue part is the overflow as this looks like a end of hose fitting? or if it is the other little blue one, it seems low to be the overflow..


regards


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 7, 2007)

Hey welsh, not sure what you are referring to. If you are talking about the flood and drain table I posted the only difference in the two fitting is whats on top of the table. The overflow is 6" tall and the flood fitting just has a screen to stop debris from going into the reservior. Must not be though cause all of mine are black. VV


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 7, 2007)

Tried to follow where you went, and couldn't. VV


----------



## welshspencer (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi VV


here is the link

https://www.rollitup.org/view.php?pg=faq&cmd=article&id=466

I notice that some people like to use CFL Low En bulbs to veg.

How many 20w low Eng bulbs would you need a clone box of about 5 clones?

and could I also use CLF to grow the mothers as I would only be growing about 12 plants at any one time and croping about 3 every two weeks. I would only need about 5 clones.


reagrds

Welshy


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 8, 2007)

The one that looks like a hose would fit on it is the fill fitting. You attach the line from the pump to it. The overflow is just open at the bottom. Best way to find out about using the cfl's is to read a few journals from folks that are using them. Compare thier sp[ace and number of plants to yours. VV


----------



## Altair Everex (Oct 9, 2007)

at what point does the cost of the xtra lights not outweigh the gain in density? like u want atleast 50watts/sqft, 75watts/sqft would be better, but is there a number which u dont gain enough to warrent the xtra lights?


----------



## welshspencer (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks VV 


So the drain one is at the bottom? so it seems the water starts to drain down the overflow as soon as it starts filling up. on others i have seen the overflow is about half way up the drain tank. and only starts draining when the water gets to that height..???

I noticed that some people on this system use a air stone like the one shown on this forum and others do not like the one below


Simply Hydroponics - System types

regards


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 9, 2007)

The water drains back the same way it got there. When the pump shuts off it drains back through the line from the pump into the reservoir. The over flow drain would only be used if you overfill the table. I had to hold the fittings and look at them to understand how these are supposed to work. I kept wanting the overflow to be the drain, which isn't the case. Here is a pix showing the flood and overflow fittings or should I say Drain and overflow fittings. When the pump turns off gravity takes over and the water drains back into the reservoir. VV


----------



## welshspencer (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks VV

very nice tank you have there. should hold a few plants 

When i go to my local garden store. what will I be looking for, (as I have no idea)

are these special attactments? 

Regards
]


----------



## trapper (Oct 10, 2007)

Hey VV how are the t5,s doing for flowering.


----------



## welshspencer (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi Guys

If i was to use this set up, but with half the amount of plants. ie instead of 21 plants per tray . just useing 12 plants. so 48 plants in total.

Could I get a good grow useing two 450 lights


----------



## VictorVIcious (Oct 17, 2007)

yes if you have it arranged right. That assumes of course, that you have seperete lights for mothers and clones to feed the system. It will not be a great harvest, it should be a good one. VV


----------



## GIJoe8383 (Nov 4, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> This style of op is known as 'Sea of Green' or SoG.
> 
> You can build this op in any scale you like, from a single mother and just one plant put in to the flowering area every two weeks up to as big as your needs require.
> 
> ...


do you cut the clones when the mother is in veg or in flower? and how many weeks in before you cut? i am a bit confused


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 4, 2007)

wow, this thread just goes and goes. 

Thanks muchly to the valiant Victor Vicious, the mightily proficient potroast and dedicated others for looking after queries. 

I don't have much time for cannabis boards in general lately; I am running this op! I've been hanging around OSA mainly of late, but I don't even go there much. Busy, busy, busy... 

In between harvests and whatnot at the moment so I looked in on this thread here on RIU. Will try to catch up some of the queries. Apologies to the kind caretakers if I duplicate anything they've already replied to. 



tstang5618 said:


> hey kinda new here just had a couple quick questions was wondering if you could qive me a run down of your nutrient schedule for your different flood trays maybe some info on how often you change the solution and any other secrets you would be willing to reveal thanks alot CHRIS


For vegging my mums, Canna Vega, 1400ppm @ 5.8. 

Flowering trays 1-4 run Canna Flores, also 1400ppm @ 5.8. 1 tsp Epsom Salts and 10ml Canna liquid calcium additive per 125L tank on mixing. Tanks are dumped every 2 weeks. 

Flowering tray 2 (plants in weeks 2-4) get Canna PK 13-14 phosphorus & potassium additive at 0.5ml/litre at the beginning of wk3. BE CAREFUL... if you use PK at Canna's upper recommended limit of 2ml/L, you may cook plants. I got acute potassium toxicity from this dosage.

Recently resumed use of bubble curtains in all tanks. Didn't bother with them for a while as the pumps quit and I was too slack to replace them. Seems to be some benefit, even when using rockwool as a medium. 



daddychrisg said:


> Hey Al, have you ever heard of using an Ebb n Grow system for SOG? I am thinking of trying that..I figure transfers will be easy when they are all growing in the same size buckets...What do you think?


Ebb 'n' Grow? Is this a brand name? What kind of system is this? You mention buckets- I guess it could be an aero or DWC (bubbleponic) system.

I like the mobility of plants in simple pots of media, watered by flood/drain. You can easily relocate plants to the best lighting position for each plant's rate of development, pick them up and turn them around for inspection, spraying, etc. A pot full of media will also hold enough water to get a plant through a couple days if a water pump has failed, as well. 



crazy-mental said:


> nice set up does it cost a lot to run.


Depends on what you think 'a lot' is.  Probably about $200-250/mo including power, water, nutes and various supplies. Not bad for what it does.



str8_pimpin said:


> Also you said you keep the mothers Vegging on 24/7? [...] Does the clonebox stay on 16/8 or 24/7? [...] EDIT: Also after you takr clones from the mothers can you put the rooted clones with the mothers in the constant Veg. room instead of a clonebox?


The clonebox runs 18/6 for the first 2-3 days after I do a batch of cuttings, then it's on 24/7. Immediately after I do a batch of cuts, I set the timer so their first 6 hours is in the dark. Allows time for water to begin to uptake from the RW cubes. 

Yes, once rooted, you can move clones into the mother veg area, but one of the main advantages of SoG is flowering clones as soon as they have good roots developed. This limits the finishing height of the plants to about 33-40" at the end of wk 8. If you veg cuttings much before flowering them, they'll get too tall. Artificial lighting can only penetrate foliage so deeply; 40" is good for a 1000W HPS, giving solid buds all the way down the plant. Keep in mind that all branching on the lower 1/3 of the plants is snipped off at the end of wk1 of flowering and again in wk3. 



str8_pimpin said:


> So how long does it usually take for the clones to root-up?


7-10 days.



> and when i put them with the mothers how long do they Veg.?


No veg time in SoG.



> i thought that you take the clones, let them root under fluoro's then throw them into flowering


Yep, that's it.



welshspencer said:


> Thans VV..
> 
> My grow room will be 3.5ft x 2.25ft the height is 7 ft (normal Ceiling height)
> 
> ...


Aim for 50W of HPS per square foot.



> and for my clones, of which I would be taken 5-6. I would like to use compact Fluorescent , would a single 20 w do for this. or would i be better of useing say two 26w


Clones don't need to be pounded with light; they just need to be convinced it's daylight for 18+ hrs/day so they won't try to flower just yet. I use 3 twin tube, 18W (24") fluoros in my ~18" x ~26" floorspace clonebox, so all the clone leaves can be within about 2-3" of a tube. If I was using CFLs, I might use 3x 20W for my clonebox. For your 5-6 plants, 1-2 CFLs will do to get the area well covered.



martyshoemaker said:


> Ur saying soon as the clones are ready, you put them right under a 12/12 1000w?


Yep.



> And if I want to use soil and water myself this will not work? And I would rather do full plants instead of SoG. w/ light movers and maybe a lil LST pulling, is this possible? Ur thoughts are appreciated.


Soil indoors is a pain in the ass. It's heavy and messy. SoG requires a large number of small plants, meaning lots of potting soil. Automated watering systems are easy to make or buy and give you the advantage of consistency. You can't forget to water and you always water the same amount. 

Tall plants in a grow room is a waste of time. Artificial lighting, even the mighty 1000W HPS, can only penetrate foliage so deeply. A tall plant (more than about 40" or so) will suffer from poor development low down on the plant. If plants are unpruned, air circ will be poor. 

SoG is all about growing mainly the top cola of the plant without all the little popcorn buds you get on lower branches. SoG exploits the best coverage area of indoor light, eliminating the need for light movers and so on. 



martyshoemaker said:


> Can you please! put up detailed pics of your grow room? Stand on a latter and take some air pics of the whole setup, it'll be fun I promise, kind of like you're flying!


Because the room is only 7' tall and I don't have a fish-eye lens for my camera, I can't take a single image of the entire op. There's pics of the individual trays early on in this thread.



iwir3d said:


> QUESTION...
> 
> Why not do a 11 section grow? 1 section for each week?


11? I only flower for about 8 weeks. 

It's complex enough with 4 trays and 4 tanks. 



> I know the mothers producing clones every week but you could take clones from later stages such as maybe wk 2 or 3?? if so then just eliminate mothers all together and do a more-so perpetrial grow?


Cuttings taken from plants in flower are notoriously slow to set root. So, I don't take cuttings from flowering plants- that's what the mother plants are for. I do a batch of cuttings every 15 days or so. If you rely on taking cuttings from plants in flower, should a batch of clones fail, you may have no plants around which have been in flower for less than 2 weeks from which to get more cuttings... and in the biz, we generally refer to that condition as 'up shit creek without a paddle.'



martyshoemaker said:


> If I wanted to get 60 good thick stemed SoG clones how many mothers should I have? Under what MH light? watt wise at 24/7


You'd probably need at least 15 reasonably well-established mother plants to get 60 thick stems every 2 weeks. If I needed 60 every 2 weeks, I'd probably run 18-20 mothers under a 400 or a 600 HPS or MH. I have long used HPS for vegging but used a 360W MH-HPS conversion lamp for a while; wasn't happy with the MH, went back to a 400HPS for vegging the mums.



potpimp said:


> Man this is some of the BEST info I've seen here or anywhere else. I'm gonna get my sister to give you a BJ!!  Thanks Al!!


Hey, thanks for that. Can you have that BJ delivered? 



potpimp said:


> Yeah, tending to about 100 plants per person would be almost a full-time job!!


What do you mean 'almost'? 



welshspencer said:


> Do you mean one 430 light over the 12 or two 430


A single 400-430 HPS ought to be able to flower 12 SoG pruned plants with good results.



Altair Everex said:


> at what point does the cost of the xtra lights not outweigh the gain in density? like u want atleast 50watts/sqft, 75watts/sqft would be better, but is there a number which u dont gain enough to warrent the xtra lights?


The point of diminishing returns is between 50-60W of HPS per sq ft. I run about 61W/sf. BTW, individual high powered lamps are better than a number of smaller ones. The bigger wattage lamps deliver higher intensity (brightness), which cannot be replaced by putting two dimmer lamps next to one another. Lumens don't 'add'!



GIJoe8383 said:


> do you cut the clones when the mother is in veg or in flower? and how many weeks in before you cut? i am a bit confused


Mother plants are kept in constant veg mode. If you are raising a mother from seed, it must be vegged until it is sexually mature (showing preflowers at the nodes), takes about 10-12 wks from seed. My mothers come from cuttings from sexually mature plants which are excess to my needs for flowering, so they are already sexually mature. A clone stuck in to the mother veg area will need about 2-3 wks vegging before it is big enough to take nice big clones from it.

Have I missed any queries?


----------



## GIJoe8383 (Nov 4, 2007)

im still a bit confused with your set up


----------



## growwonderer (Nov 4, 2007)

wow whats your electrical bill like, doesnt that make u nervous?


----------



## VictorVIcious (Nov 4, 2007)

GIJoe8383 said:


> im still a bit confused with your set up


Your confusion isn't about the setup.Its about the idea of mother plants. Reemember the house plants your mom used to grow, and every once in a whiole a branch would get broken. She would put it in water until it formed roots and then plant it and grow it. Same thing. You keep some plants that are known to be female because they came from a known female plants and always give them at least 18 hours of light. They think its always summer so they keep growing new branches. YOu keep cutting them off and planting them. After they have rooted you put them in 12 hours light, twelve hours dark. They think its getting to be fall so the start producing flowers so they can be pollinated by a male plant before winter sets in and kills them. They produce more flowers hoping to get pollinated. 
Mean while you cutting more clones from the 'mother plants'. Hope this help you. VV


----------



## VictorVIcious (Nov 4, 2007)

growwonderer said:


> wow whats your electrical bill like, doesnt that make u nervous?


Al is running two 1000watt light, one 400watt light and 3 2' small flourescent lights. Many folks on here run more lights than that. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 4, 2007)

GIJoe8383 said:


> im still a bit confused with your set up


Could you be a little bit more vague?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 4, 2007)

growwonderer said:


> wow whats your electrical bill like, doesnt that make u nervous?


No, not really. When everything in the op is on (12 hours per day), the whole ~shabang~ draws 3543 watts. When the flowering lights are off, it is drawing 400W. 

This is well under the 'noise' of dishwashers, water heat, fridge, clothes washer, several computers and all the other nonsense in this place. This place draws about 1500W with the op totally shut off, Mind you, the power co never knows my consumption to that level of detail. 

Your mileage may vary. If you are a single person in a 1 br apt drawing 50kWh/day, questions may certainly be raised (esp if your pwr use interferes with other residents use of the service)... but if you pay your bill in full on time every time, you're just a good customer. 

My op is really rather small compared to the average "commercial" op, which might run 10-15kW.


----------



## FlipAPenny (Nov 4, 2007)

Glad to see you're back AL!

With you sharing all your knowledge you are greatly appreciated. 

I just found 3 males of my own and am about 2 weeks into flower. Now that I know who is male/female I will be taking clones and running the SOG opp. It took quite some time to get most of everything I needed but I think it will be well worth it!

If you have any quit suggestions they are more than appreciated.

-That's all I have to say about that.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 4, 2007)

Thx for the compliments, Penny. 

Quit suggestions? Dunno wot you mean.

Your main task now is to establish a gaggle of healthy mother plants which will deliver the number of cuts you need. If you intend to put 20 plants in to flower every 2wks, cut 30. Be ruthless- use only your best performing cuttings for flowering. Use leftovers to replace old mums and compost anything which doesn't thrive. Retire mums often- I keep a mum usually for no more than 4-6 wks (2-3-4 passes of cuttings per mum), tops.


----------



## FlipAPenny (Nov 4, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thx for the compliments, Penny.
> 
> Quit suggestions? Dunno wot you mean.
> 
> Your main task now is to establish a gaggle of healthy mother plants which will deliver the number of cuts you need. If you intend to put 20 plants in to flower every 2wks, cut 30. Be ruthless- use only your best performing cuttings for flowering. Use leftovers to replace old mums and compost anything which doesn't thrive. Retire mums often- I keep a mum usually for no more than 4-6 wks (2-3-4 passes of cuttings per mum), tops.


What do you mean by 2-3-4 passes? I'm sure this is going to be a no brainer but I need to ask.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 4, 2007)

FlipAPenny said:


> What do you mean by 2-3-4 passes? I'm sure this is going to be a no brainer but I need to ask.


I do cuttings every 2 weeks. 2 passes is 4 wks, etc. Some mums are more productive than others and remain healthier longer, accounting for the variation in how long I keep them.


----------



## FlipAPenny (Nov 4, 2007)

Quick question.

I'm almost 2 weeks into flowering from my seedlings. Once I know for sure that I have a female can I take her and put her back into veg. so I can have a much bigger mother to begin with or would this kill her?

My other option would be to take clones while they are in flowering and put them back into veg. but I would be stuck with SMALLER clones than desired. Help me please.

-Peace


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 7, 2007)

Penny, a convenient way to sex a plant under veg sked lighting is to cover one branch for 12 hours a day for about 7-10 days. You can also take a cutting from a plant of yet-unknown sex, get it to set root and then put it under 12/12 light.


----------



## daddychrisg (Nov 7, 2007)

*Ebb 'n' Grow? Is this a brand name? What kind of system is this? You mention buckets- I guess it could be an aero or DWC (bubbleponic) system.

I like the mobility of plants in simple pots of media, watered by flood/drain. You can easily relocate plants to the best lighting position for each plant's rate of development, pick them up and turn them around for inspection, spraying, etc. A pot full of media will also hold enough water to get a plant through a couple days if a water pump has failed, as well.

*_The ebb n grow system is just like hydro farm in the way that you have individual buckets and a Res, but there is no top feed. The buckets are 3 gallon, so they grow big plants well. But when it comes to a sog with this large of buckets, it seems like I have alot of wasted space. I also like being able to move the plants around as I see fit at any part of the cycle. I have been tempted to try and grow 2 plants in each bucket as an experiment, but have yet to break my on going pattern. Thanks for all the great info Al, I admire all your hard work!_


----------



## Stargrl Chi (Nov 9, 2007)

*Your setup is amazing, I want to have something similar to this in its efficiency someday. But I am not aiming for quite that much quantity  ... Yet.*


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (Nov 9, 2007)

Hey Al glad you're back! If you remember me, I have the EXACT same setup as you but Im soil, but I do also have 2 1000W for the flowering area and have 4-5 moms under a 400W, and my clone box is a two tier adjustable rack can holds hundreds of clones. I'm still just starting as now I have dedicated mothers. Thanks for the info a lot of great stuff! But I'm having difficulty with two things I tried to emulate off you..

1) I'm having little success with larger clones, they seem to tip over and die most of the time, some do survive though. I use a perlite and special soil germination mix. Though its important to mention, the 'large' clones I have taken so far were off very young mothers so the diameter of the stems were very thin, could this be it? Yours look much thicker and stronger, maybe I need to give my mothers some time. Also, how often do you foilar feed the clones?

2) Do you rotate your trays frequently? If not, some buds must be neglected thus fluffy. I've been having that prob, but my plants were bigger and taller last time as they were vegged for long (didn't have the cycle yet)

Thanks and again i cant believe how similar are setups are


----------



## skunkman98536 (Nov 9, 2007)

genious.....


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Nov 9, 2007)

genious? What does that even mean?


----------



## VictorVIcious (Nov 9, 2007)

I was waiting for you to say that. The funniest post I have ever seen is in this thread. VV


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Nov 10, 2007)

Im sad to hear that I am getting predictable, but it had to be done.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 11, 2007)

OhYesTheDopeMan said:


> 1) I'm having little success with larger clones, they seem to tip over and die most of the time, some do survive though. I use a perlite and special soil germination mix. Though its important to mention, the 'large' clones I have taken so far were off very young mothers so the diameter of the stems were very thin, could this be it? Yours look much thicker and stronger, maybe I need to give my mothers some time. Also, how often do you foilar feed the clones?
> 
> 2) Do you rotate your trays frequently? If not, some buds must be neglected thus fluffy. I've been having that prob, but my plants were bigger and taller last time as they were vegged for long (didn't have the cycle yet)
> 
> Thanks and again i cant believe how similar are setups are


Thick stemmed cuttings outperform very thin ones. When I start a new mother plant, I'll veg it for a week then prune it and perhaps do that again in acpl weeks until the stems start coming up nice and thick. I prefer to use stems which are >8mm. 

I've never foliar fed anything, but as long as one doesn't keep plants wet for many hours of each day, go for it. 

I move plants from tray to tray every 2 weeks. 

Since you're using soil, you may wish to build in some extra time into your sked- perhaps an extra 4-5 days in each tray, for a total flowering time of about 10 weeks, to combat any fluffy bud problems. Hydroponics makes nutrients more available to the plant and allows more oxygen to the roots than soil, making it just that much faster. 

I do not envy anyone trying to run an op like mine in soil. Heavy, messy... and if you re-use soil, you can transfer root diseases from crop to crop. I spoze it's (sorta) easy to dispose of, but you must only use sterilised potting soil- yard soil will just not do. You can sterilise yard soil by baking it (about 2 hrs/kg @ ~200C), but open all the windows in the house before you do it! Phew!

Pruning off the branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant will also eliminate a lot of 'popcorn' buds. This is a necessary procedure in SoG anyway. Improves air circ around plants, allowing you to pack in as many pots as possible.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 12, 2007)

I've been battling through a few problems in the op lately, prolly ought to make some notes about them now.

Early in this thread, I note that I was using PK-13-14 in wk3 at 2ml/litre. This is the upper recommended dosage given by Canna on the PK jug. At this rate, PK was causing acute potassium toxicity (leaves yellowing from margin to veins, poor plant development). I quit using PK entirely for a few batches to isolate the problem, which did stop the yellowing. Development is better without PK, but PK _*is*_ very useful for improving bud density and overall yield. I've returned to using it again but only at 0.5ml/litre of tank volume.

I also had some small yellow spots appearing on lower leaves, which could either have been caused by a calcium deficiency or by my UV ioniser. I got some Canna calcium additive, which unfortunately has no dosage instructions on the label. I've been trialling it at 10ml in each 125L tank on mixing fresh tanks every 2 weeks. I've also started adding Epsom salts at 1 tsp per 125L tank on mixing. This has cured the spotting problem and plants are back to developing well in their first 2 wks in flowering, once again getting up to about 33-36" by wk3. 

I ran the system without aeration in the tanks for a long time as the pumps quit and I was too slack to replace them. I didn't think that oxygenation by air stones was helping much considering I was using rockwool floc as a medium, instead depending on root oxygenation from the use of H2O2 (1ml/L every 3-4 days). I got some new air pumps and bubble curtains and have been running those for several weeks. This may or may not have anything to do with recent performance improvements, but it's one of those things that simply can't hurt anything. 

I made several changes all at once, so it's difficult to tell which have really made the most improvement, but it looks like we're back on the trail to high productivity.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 12, 2007)

I probably ought to make a note about my trial of Fytocell media. I had been putting a knee-hi stocking over the bottom of the pots to prevent the fine crumbs of Fytocell from escaping the pots. This is not desirable due to the cost of the stockings, but probably prevents gnats from getting at the roots as they emerge from the drain holes in the pots. Pots of Fytocell also have a tendency to float, even if well wetted. 

In my latest batch, I tightly packed about 50mm of rockwool floc in the bottom of each pot and filled the remainder of the pots with Fytocell. The floc holds enough water to weight down the pots so they do not float. It also prevents the Fytocell crumbs from escaping into the res tanks. I did put stockings on this batch but have found that since the floc is preventing the Fytocell crumbs from escaping, they are probably not necessary.


----------



## HydroHog (Nov 12, 2007)

This thread is truly an inspiration. Bravo


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 6, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> In my latest batch, I tightly packed about 50mm of rockwool floc in the bottom of each pot and filled the remainder of the pots with Fytocell. The floc holds enough water to weight down the pots so they do not float. It also prevents the Fytocell crumbs from escaping into the res tanks. I did put stockings on this batch but have found that since the floc is preventing the Fytocell crumbs from escaping, they are probably not necessary.


Yep, this works great. No stockings from now on- just a couple of inches of rockwool floc in the bottom of each pot to weight them and block Fytocell crumbs from escaping. 

I've changed the watering on trays 2, 3 & 4 to flood 2x day- at lights-on and an hour before lights-off. Fytocell doesn't hold as much water as floc, so this is both necessary and desirable to expose the roots to oxygenated water more often than I previously was doing. Plants in tray 1, covering the first 2 weeks of flowering, do OK with only 1 flood cycle per day, but I hand-water those for the first week with a spare pump and a hose, until I see roots poking out of the pots' drain holes.


----------



## evhfan (Dec 10, 2007)

So how do you start this? Would I germinate seeds, make seedlings, grow 6-8 mothers, and then start cloning from there? How long do you have to let the mothers grow until you can take cuttings from them to make clones?

Very nice setup btw, I'm just a little confused on how long to grow the mothers first.

Also, it appears you have four 4' x 4' flood trays, but you said you only use two 1000W hps lights? Isn't that inadequate? A 1000w will only cover a 4' x 4' area? So, wouldn't you need four lights?

What do you do about nutes and ppm? Do you use any for the mothers? What about the trays/clones? What nutes do you use for all four trays, the mothers, and the clones? Also, what is your daily maintenance like? Do you add anything to the reservoirs daily, and how often do you empty out the reservoir and refill it? Could you explain to me what topping off with water is?

Also, when you put the cuttings from the mothers into the rockwool cubes, how often do you water them for the next 10-12 days? And how do you water them?


----------



## VictorVIcious (Dec 10, 2007)

evhfan said:


> > So how do you start this? Would I germinate seeds, make seedlings, grow 6-8 mothers, and then start cloning from there? How long do you have to let the mothers grow until you can take cuttings from them to make clones
> 
> 
> ?
> ...


You may want to read his thread on cloning as well. Only water when they need it. 
One of the things I like about Al B, is his willingness to change. If you read all of his threads you will see, he has made some changes recently and posted them when he has made them. 
I took notes as I read his threads and tried to set mine up as close to his as I could. The mothers is a another subject. VV


----------



## evhfan (Dec 10, 2007)

VictorVIcious said:


> You may want to read his thread on cloning as well. Only water when they need it.
> One of the things I like about Al B, is his willingness to change. If you read all of his threads you will see, he has made some changes recently and posted them when he has made them.
> I took notes as I read his threads and tried to set mine up as close to his as I could. The mothers is a another subject. VV



Ah, thanks. Yeah, I've read the entire thread twice and taken notes as well. I have about 2 pages worth. I'm trying to replicate his setup... only thing now is what you said about his measurements being off.. I made my plans for 4' x 4' trays with a 1000w light hovering over each pair of trays. I'm now thinking maybe four 3' x 3' trays with a 400W HPS over each tray. Also a 400W MH over mothers in a 2' x 2' tray, and clones with fluoros.
What size trays/lights would you recommend for this setup? I would like to harvest 8oz every two weeks, more if possible.


edit:
I reread the thread again... apparently Al is using two 4x4 trays with a 1000w hps light. 16 sq ft * 12 in = 192 in.
Now if you take 192 in. and divide it by 8" pots..

192 / 8 = 24. And Al said he could fit 23-24 8" pots in his trays.


----------



## kronos416 (Dec 13, 2007)

How many plants total do you have going at one time in each phase of grow? clones, veg, flower ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 15, 2007)

evhfan said:


> So how do you start this? Would I germinate seeds, make seedlings, grow 6-8 mothers, and then start cloning from there?


Yep.



> How long do you have to let the mothers grow until you can take cuttings from them to make clones?


Plants raised from seed must be grown to sexual maturity. This is when preflowers are showing at the node points while under veg cycle lighting. 

Sex then must be determined, either by covering one branch for 12 hrs/day or taking a cutting, getting it to set root then putting it under 12/12. 



> Very nice setup btw, I'm just a little confused on how long to grow the mothers first.


It takes about 6-8 weeks from seed to sexual maturity.



> Also, it appears you have four 4' x 4' flood trays, but you said you only use two 1000W hps lights? Isn't that inadequate? A 1000w will only cover a 4' x 4' area? So, wouldn't you need four lights?


When I wrote the lead post in this thread, I hadn't measured the trays. They are not 4'x4'- they are only 2' 8.4" square (820mm x 820mm). It's not a terribly significant difference, as long as one didn't try to run more than about 25 plants per tray. 

The rule-o-thumb for HPS lighting is 50W/sq ft. A 1000 will cover 20sq ft very well. Would still work fine with a pair of 4x4 trays, as long as plants were regularly shifted into the best light as needed to even growth out. The light pattern from the Adjust-A-Wings batwing shades is a long rectangle which suits a pair of square trays beside one another very well. 



> What do you do about nutes and ppm?


All flowering tanks get Canna Flores, 1400ppm @ 5.5-5.8 (400ml ea A & B in 125L tank of 7.1 tapwater). Tank 2 gets 50ml of Canna PK-13-14 in wk3 for the plants in tray 2. All tanks get 1 tsp Epsom Salts when a fresh tank is mixed as well a 10ml of Canna liquid calcium. All tanks are dosed with H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/litre every 3-4 days to control pathogens.



> Do you use any for the mothers?


Canna Vega, 1400ppm, 5.5-5.8, also H2O2, Epsom Salts and calcium. 


> What about the trays/clones?


pH adjusted tapwater with H2O2 @ 1ml/L.



> Also, what is your daily maintenance like? Do you add anything to the reservoirs daily,


A check to see pumps have run is the only real daily thing. I don't monkey about with the tanks much. I mix a tank and allow the plants to use up the water and nutes. I may top up the tank if it drops much below 2/3 full, usually by the end of the first week of a 2 week life of a tank of nutes. When you top up with plain 7.1 tap water, the tanks may rise to about 6.2. Canna nutes have pH buffers in them which sets my 7.1 tapwater to 5.8 when I have mixed to 1400ppm, but after 1 week, the pH buffers and nutes are somewhat depleted. Some pH Down correction sauce is needed to drop the tanks back down to about 5.5-5.7.


> how often do you empty out the reservoir and refill it?


Tanks are dumped and cleaned every 2 weeks. 



> Could you explain to me what topping off with water is?


Replacing tank water that the plants have consumed, with ye olde garden hose. 



> Also, when you put the cuttings from the mothers into the rockwool cubes, how often do you water them for the next 10-12 days? And how do you water them?


I water RW cubes 2x/day, every 12 hours, by dipping only one corner of the bottom of the cubes into a bucket of pH adjusted water. This avoids saturating the cubes. A properly damp cube should have about 20ml of water in it, no more. Excessively wet cubes root very slowly if at all.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 17, 2007)

kronos416 said:


> How many plants total do you have going at one time in each phase of grow? clones, veg, flower ?


Hmm.... at most, 10 mums, 30 cuttings setting root in the clonebox and 23-24 plants per tray in the 4 flowering trays, roughly 135 at most. 

SoG grows plants to suit the lights and obtain only the best buds a plant can make. In SoG, one deliberately grows small plants so the majority of the harvest is buds from top colas. A 'carpet' or 'sea' of plants, organised with the main bud growing mass organised into something of a plane, suits artificial lighting better than the normal unpruned, tree-like growing habit of cannabis. SoG requires greater numbers of small plants to obtain the best yield per lighted floorspace.

There are other ways to get the SoG effect and reduce plant counts. One could shoot for rather large plants in big pots of media, but prune off the mainstems and veg the plants to make them bush out. This will give a number of verticals that will grow large tops. However, the buds which form on mainstems will always be bigger and denser than those formed on small branches. One could obtain similar results to a 24 pot SoG with only 6 very large pots with this method. However, it would require that the plants to be flowered were vegged for a week or two after the mainstems were lopped, to encourage branching formation. This would make the continuous harvest system I have a bit messy as cuttings would require a few weeks vegging under a high-powered lamp to get them up to size and grow some laterals. Vegging as such would require a separate veg area and lighting... more floorspace, power and time.


----------



## welshspencer (Dec 18, 2007)

Hi Al

If i did the same setup but half the plants

3-4 mothers 

15 cuttings

12 clones in each tray

Could i use two 600 hps one over two tanks


reagrds


----------



## crazy-mental (Dec 18, 2007)

ive started to do this 5 plants every 3 weeks. as aposed to growing all at once, its a rite pain waiting for plants to finish, plus if awt goes wrong. you can learn from it, and hopfully not do it to your next grow, cos a grow can take upto 3/4 m,onths depending on strain and vegg time, it got to be better even just staggering your plants even if you only had space for 4 you could do one every 3 weeks, then also you can space out your weed, if your growing for yourself.
here mate any pics of all your grow spaces so i can see the diff. thanks.
do you keep the mums on 24/0. flo's or hps? for the mums.


----------



## daveg1i (Dec 19, 2007)

very sick grow...damn


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 20, 2007)

welshspencer said:


> Hi Al
> 
> If i did the same setup but half the plants
> 
> ...


Sounds about right. Trays would be limited to about 2.5' x 2.5' as a 600 will most effectively light about 12 sq ft. A pair of 2.5'^2 trays is about 12.5 sf.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 20, 2007)

crazy-mental said:


> here mate any pics of all your grow spaces so i can see the diff. thanks.


yep






tray 1 @ 2 wks






tray 2 @ 4wks






tray 3 @ 6 wks






tray 4 @ 8wks

These are rather old pix, things are cooking along much better now. 



> do you keep the mums on 24/0. flo's or hps? for the mums.


Mums are under a 400HPS 24/0.


----------



## TheGardenMan (Dec 20, 2007)

so basicly its set up like this.......you have a 4x4 area so that means i can put 1 plant ever square foot. so ill be stuffing 16 in there. ill have a veg room and a flowering room. ill start off with 16 starts/clones and put them in veg than after 4 weeks ill put them in flower, than while those are flowering ill start more in veg? is this correct?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 20, 2007)

TheGardenMan said:


> ill start off with 16 starts/clones and put them in veg than after 4 weeks ill put them in flower, than while those are flowering ill start more in veg? is this correct?


Nope. Completely wrong. Please review this thread from the beginning. 

Clones which will be flowered are never vegged. This is a SoG op- means zero veg time. 

The only plants I veg are the mums. The clones live in the clonebox for ~7-10 days under 24/0 fluoros while setting root, but once they have a good spray of roots, they are put in to flower. 

If clones are vegged for any significant period before flowering, they will get too tall by the end of wk8. Buds low down on the plant will be sparse and weedy.

The whole point of this exercise is deliberately growing a 'sea' of short plants, essentially just the top cola of a naturally growing plant. This best suits artificial lighting and yields only dense top cola buds. Flowering freshly rooted clones immediately, with zero veg time, is how this is accomplished.


----------



## abudsmoker (Dec 20, 2007)

holy shit. good to see you old man. been wondering whats up. good to see everything is in order


----------



## TheGardenMan (Dec 20, 2007)

Julian rep dat shit nigga


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 20, 2007)

abudsmoker said:


> holy shit. good to see you old man. been wondering whats up. good to see everything is in order


thanks mon, all's ok. Just busy running my op, taking a break in the middle of another harvest at this moment.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 20, 2007)

TheGardenMan said:


> Julian rep dat shit nigga


'nigga'?

Is that supposed to be cool or is it just racist?


----------



## GoodFriend (Dec 20, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 'nigga'?
> 
> Is that supposed to be cool or is it just racist?


i miss your posting... glad you're still checking in...

a friend and i are going to start an op soon... i'm taking care of the veg part... moms, and taking clones and getting them ready... he's gonna have the flower part going on...

anyways...
would you think a 1000mh, and 2 400hps would be decent enough to cover 4x8 area?

it'll probably be a hempy style sog grow if we can get some drippers or something for watering sorted out...

edit:maybe this should have been a pm?
anyways... hope your grows going well...


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Dec 20, 2007)

I think we can all agree that "nigga" is not cool and it is racist, but it is mildly cooler and slightly less racist than the alternative, which is "Porch Monkey."


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 20, 2007)

lumberjack_ian said:


> i miss your posting... glad you're still checking in...


thanks mon, just don't have as much time for posting as I once did. 


> would you think a 1000mh, and 2 400hps would be decent enough to cover 4x8 area?
> 
> it'll probably be a hempy style sog grow if we can get some drippers or something for watering sorted out...


You won't have much use for a 1000MH in a zero-veg time SoG. MH is too blue for flowering and 1kW is a hell of a lot of light to throw at vegging mums, unless you need to grow masses of mother plants to make enough cuttings to feed into a warehouse-sized grow every other week.

Per our well-known 50W/sq ft rule-o-thumb for HPS lighting for flowering, each 400 will cover 8 sq ft. The light pattern of efficient double parabola reflectors (which I know you'll want to use  ) is a long rectangle, so you might opt to run the 400s each over a ~ 2' x 4' tray or over a pair of 2' x 2' trays. 



> edit:maybe this should have been a pm?


Probably not. Regrettably, I just don't have time to design ops or walk through grows with everyone who would like me to. I'm not very good about keeping up after this thread much less a flurry of PMs. I disabled PMs back last May, I think.


----------



## GoodFriend (Dec 20, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> thank mon, just don't have as much time for posting as I once did.
> 
> 
> You won't have much use for a 1000MH in a zero-veg time SoG. MH is too blue for flowering and 1kW is a hell of a lot of light to throw at vegging mums, unless you need to grow masses of mother plants to make enough cuttings to feed into a warehouse-sized grow every other week.
> ...


i think you misunderstood... it would be a combination of the 1000w mh with the 2 400w hps all covering a 4x8 area... the mh is one of the enhanced mh (with added red spectrum) to help with flowering... would the added red spectrum from the hps' not be enough to suppliment all this for really decent bud?

we're looking to run a quick sog before setting up a continual harvest ever 2-3 weeks... scrog...

thanks for you're help buddy


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 21, 2007)

lumberjack_ian said:


> i think you misunderstood... it would be a combination of the 1000w mh with the 2 400w hps all covering a 4x8 area... the mh is one of the enhanced mh (with added red spectrum) to help with flowering... would the added red spectrum from the hps' not be enough to suppliment all this for really decent bud?


I did figure you wanted to use the 1000MH to flower, but I didn't figure on the red enhancement. An ordinary MH doesn't do so well for flowering. 

I haven't tried a red-enhanced MH for flowering. You might get a spectrum curve for the MH lamp you're intending to use and compare it to a typical HPS so you might be able to make some predictions. 

If you do hang all three lights over your flowering area, don't count on light from the 400s getting to all of the coverage area of the 1000MH. The 400s wont cover near the area of the 1000. 

Using multiple HID lights of differing output can make things a little complex, but good luck.


----------



## GoodFriend (Dec 21, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I did figure you wanted to use the 1000MH to flower, but I didn't figure on the red enhancement. An ordinary MH doesn't do so well for flowering.
> 
> I haven't tried a red-enhanced MH for flowering. You might get a spectrum curve for the MH lamp you're intending to use and compare it to a typical HPS so you might be able to make some predictions.
> 
> ...


... sometime we'll get the 1000hps...
but we need money...


hence getting the commercial grow underway =]

theres lots of testing i want to do... like vert scrogs too...

thanks for all your help
stay safe friend


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 22, 2007)

If you already have a 1000MH ballast, I wonder if there's a 1000HPS retrofit lamp that will work with it. If not, have a go flowering some with your red-enhanced MH. Might work gangbusters. 

Mixing lighting of different sizes in your flowering area can lead to unequal plant heights, a bit of a problem in a SoG, where we're trying to grow the plants in something approximating a plane. 

Just for starters, I'd use one of your 400s to veg mums, put the other 400 away as a spare and have a go flowering with your modified spectrum 1000MH over a pair of ~3' x 3' trays. 

I set my system up on 4 trays so that I could more easily apply the P & K supplement only to plants in flowering wk3. A tank of sauce lasts 2 weeks before I dump & clean, so it just works out that I can use the PK in the 2nd wk of saucelife for tank 2, which supplies plants during their flowering wk2-4. Tank 2 doesn't get any PK on mixing up every 2 weeks, rather a week later. If I only had 2 trays, plants not in wk 3 would be dosed with PK unless I relocated them and otherwise watered them while the wk3 plants were being dosed.

ScrOG is very interesting, but is a bit more fiddly than SoG. I'm full on keeping after things as they are while maintaining a life outside the op. ScrOG also puts limits on plant mobility within the op. Not as easy to move plants for spraying, evening growth by preferential lighting positioning, etc. Done well, it's art- but hard to justify in a 'production' oriented op.


----------



## GoodFriend (Dec 22, 2007)

thanks for the response...

yeah we already have a 400w hps and 175w mh for the moms and clones... the other lights are being picked up today i think (i forget what exactly my partner said....)

i can understand what you mean about the plant height... i'll bring that up with him... we're hoping we can fumble our way through this... haha

and we were thinking of doing them with 4x2 tables... i'm thinking if we have the 1000w over two of them, and the two 400w each covering 2x2 of the last table... huh... that actually works out...

we were originally thinking of doing 4x8 area... but a 4x6 seems to be better...

thanks for helping me think this though... haha
good growing friend...

oh... and just on the side... what flavors you got growin right now?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 22, 2007)

I've been running Sweet Tooth #4 from Spice of Life seeds for about 5-6 years now. Hard to find the beans for it these days.

Your 400s will each cover a 2' x 4' tray. If you run four 2' x 4' trays, the 1000 can cover two of them with the 400s covering two. I'd probably run wks 0-4 under the 400s with the remainder under the 1000.


----------



## daddychrisg (Dec 22, 2007)

I "had" sweet tooth for awhile...unfortunately I lost the strain from lack of taking clones...I thought I had a few, but when I searched around my clones I realized that somehow I must have missed clipping that girl. It cured so well......


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 23, 2007)

I have yet to find anything which produces like ST4, has good mould/disease resistance to boot.


----------



## TheGardenMan (Dec 27, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> This style of op is known as 'Sea of Green' or SoG.
> 
> You can build this op in any scale you like, from a single mother and just one plant put in to the flowering area every two weeks up to as big as your needs require.
> 
> ...


what size trays are you using, and how big are the buckets you use after taking them out of the clone trays?


----------



## TheGardenMan (Dec 27, 2007)

So your harvesting 16 plants every two weeks? I was looking at the starting post and it says you use 4' trays so i was wondering if you were putting 16 plants in each tray and you had all 4 trays in the flowering room?because if you had all 4 of them in your flowering room at once that would mean you would need atleast 8'x8' for the trays


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 30, 2007)

The flowchart diagram in post #1 is only a rough guide- it doesn't accurately depict the numbers of plants. Each tray in the flowering area actually holds 24 plants. The clonebox holds 30 cuttings and the mother tray usually has 8-10 plants in it. 

When I wrote the first post, I hadn't measured the trays in the flowering area. They are not quite 4' square- they are actually 820mm x 820mm (about 2'8" square).

The pots are labelled "175mm" on their bases. That's the diameter of the bottom part of the pots; the tops are closer to 200mm dia.


----------



## trenton (Dec 31, 2007)

Hello Al B. Fuct. I am the person doing the journal for 60 plant grow room setup in the indoor growing section. I have been really inspired by your method and wish to try it. I have a couple questions for you first. With only 8 weeks (56 days) total production time what strains do you reccomend using?? Also you mentioned that you use 4 trays. Is it always the same # of plants in each tray? How many? Finnaly, What size pots are you using? I hope to get a reply back from you. Your thread has been very inspiring to me. Thanks.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 31, 2007)

trenton said:


> Hello Al B. Fuct. I am the person doing the journal for 60 plant grow room setup in the indoor growing section. I have been really inspired by your method and wish to try it. I have a couple questions for you first. With only 8 weeks (56 days) total production time what strains do you reccomend using?? Also you mentioned that you use 4 trays. Is it always the same # of plants in each tray? How many? Finnaly, What size pots are you using? I hope to get a reply back from you. Your thread has been very inspiring to me. Thanks.


I don't mean to be snippy, but every one of your queries can be answered by reading this thread in entirety, notably the _immediately_ preceding post.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 31, 2007)

After making a few tweaks and corrections, things are looking up.  


Much better plant development- this is tray#1, for plants in wk0-2. These are at about 2 weeks. Nice early bud development. 


Mucho improvement in this shot of tray#2, for plants in wks2-4. These are at about 4 wks.


The weight is starting to pile on in this batch in tray#3, wks4-6. Plants shown are in wk6.


A couple of plants from tray 4, wks6-8. These are in wk8, ready to harvest. Nice, dense, hard, clumpy nugs, now yielding about 1oz per plant. 

I think that reintroducing aeration probably made the biggest difference, improving vigor across all trays. Correcting the PK13-14 dose to 0.5ml/l in tank2 during wk3 for the plants in that tray has stopped the cooking of leaves in wk4-6. I'm a bit mixed on the Fytocell; it's a bit messy to use. I'm going to run a couple of batches side by side with plain floc and with Fytocell now that I have some other issues sorted.


----------



## butterflykisses (Dec 31, 2007)

hey did u mention what seed bank u use? if not would u mind leting me know?


----------



## GoodFriend (Dec 31, 2007)

Al B. Fuct said:


> A couple of plants from tray 4, wks6-8. These are in wk8, ready to harvest. Nice, dense, hard, clumpy nugs, now yielding about 1oz per plant.


those plants are each a zip???

those must be some dense nuggies... haha


----------



## mendOG (Dec 31, 2007)

why do you recommend such frequent replacement of mothers?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 1, 2008)

butterflykisses said:


> hey did u mention what seed bank u use? if not would u mind leting me know?


I bought these neans from Gypsy Nirvana, many, MANY years ago. 



lumberjack_ian said:


> those plants are each a zip???
> 
> those must be some dense nuggies... haha


The pictured plants, about 42" tall, made about 40g (1.4oz) each. Admittedly, they don't all do quite that well, but not far from it. When dry, the buds are rock stiff, like a wad of fabric dipped in glue. Nothing but Sweet Tooth #4's fabulous DNA at work here. 



mendOG said:


> why do you recommend such frequent replacement of mothers?


After about 6-8 weeks, having donated several batches of cuttings, they're getting pretty gnarly and may have picked up some gnats in the rootmasses, etc. I have the spare clones to replace the mums frequently, so I do.


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I bought these neans from Gypsy Nirvana, many, MANY years ago.


i've heard some not so nice things about gypsy...

those plants speak for themselves though...
do you ever test out different strains to put in the mix? or are you pretty set on the ST?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 1, 2008)

I've heard lots of bad stuff about Gypsy over the years as well... not sure how much is true- I suspect not much. I got my beans in reasonable time for the price I expected to pay. The breeder of Sweet Tooth #4 is (was?) Spice of Life Seeds. They may or may not still be producing ST4. 

I've tried many, many strains; ST4 is the killer app. High productivity, wonderful smoking characters, great resistance to mould, etc. If I had to replace ST4, I might use LUI, Skunk #1, Power Plant or some other indica dominant hybrid.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 2, 2008)

FYI, Sweet Tooth #4 may also be known as Blockhead. Also available here.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 2, 2008)

Fytocell seems to be at least as good as rockwool floc in the flowering plants, but I'm finding that floc is the preferred medium for mums. Mums pull much more water and nutrient than do even the most vigorous flowering plants (wk5-7). Even with a 50mm plug of floc in the bottoms of pots of Fytocell, mainly to keep the Fytocell crumbs escaping, neighbouring mum plants in 100% floc were more vigorous. Weird.


----------



## swishrsplitr (Jan 3, 2008)

first of all I would like to say great post; this system seems to be incredibly efficient and I would like to try it. I was wondering what kind of water pump you use to flood your tables and do you pump air into the reserviors as well? thanks for any info you can give me


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the compliments, swish. 

The water pumps are ordinary centrifugal aquarium powerhead types, 600-800L/hr. They fill the trays when powered up but allow water to run backward through them to drain the trays. 

Yes, I aerate all tanks with common aquarium air pumps and ~14" bubble curtains.


----------



## philli007 (Jan 7, 2008)

Hey Al,
Finally finished reading all the posts of this 32 page thread and gonna start it over again, immediately. Just wanted to take a moment to give you mad props. Awesome thread, fantastic info!
Stay well,
Philli


----------



## Scotland (Jan 7, 2008)

I have to agree with the above post - a fantastic system. 

One quick question - what size are your rockwool cubes? I have looked throughout the thread and don't think you have mentioned this! (Unless 40mm is the width and not the height as I assumed)


----------



## weed13 (Jan 7, 2008)

great treadt and lots of good info. i hust got done with my grow area and im using the same method but i will be starting of in 4x4 rockwell cubes then goin to use hydroton. how many time should i water them im one day? im thinking flooding the table 4 times a during 18/6. how that sound?


----------



## oneyearorange (Jan 7, 2008)

great thread


----------



## TheGardenMan (Jan 7, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> those plants are each a zip???
> 
> those must be some dense nuggies... haha



looks nice keep it up.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 8, 2008)

philli007 said:


> Hey Al,
> Finally finished reading all the posts of this 32 page thread and gonna start it over again, immediately. Just wanted to take a moment to give you mad props. Awesome thread, fantastic info!
> Stay well,
> Philli


Thanks. 



Scotland said:


> I have to agree with the above post - a fantastic system.
> 
> One quick question - what size are your rockwool cubes? I have looked throughout the thread and don't think you have mentioned this! (Unless 40mm is the width and not the height as I assumed)


Cubes are the same dimension on all sides. That's why we call 'em 'cubes.'  Of course, the ones I use are L 40mm x W 40mm x H 40mm.



weed13 said:


> great treadt and lots of good info. i hust got done with my grow area and im using the same method but i will be starting of in 4x4 rockwell cubes then goin to use hydroton. how many time should i water them im one day? im thinking flooding the table 4 times a during 18/6. how that sound?


4" (100mm) cubes are too big. They hold water for too long for seedlings and clones. The water goes stagnant (loses all dissoved oxygen) before the plant can soak it up or the water can naturally evaporate from the cube. 100mm cubes are intended for intermediate planting in some crops. After a seedling or clone has been established in a smaller cube (usually 40mm), the smaller cube is placed on top of the 100mm cube and roots are allowed to bite into the 100mm cube, before the 100mm cube itself is nested into rockwool floc or onto a rockwool slab.This intermediate planting isn't really necessary for our purposes. Once the clone has set root adequately in a 40mm cube, it can be nested in a pot of rockwool floc or Fytocell, as I am presently doing. 



oneyearorange said:


> great thread





TheGardenMan said:


> looks nice keep it up.


Thanks and thanks.


----------



## gvega187 (Jan 8, 2008)

hey AL I HAVE FOR A QUESTION! The trimming you speak of in the 2nd and 3rd weeks. Could you elaborate on this matter as I am very curious. You are putting them straight into flowering so exactly how much of the lower part of the plant do you remove and doesnt this late trimming affect overall yield? Sry if you already answered this, I have scanned many pages of your thread and am very impressed, however missed this issue.


----------



## weed13 (Jan 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the thing is that i in my grow area the humidty gets down 2 about 30 and everthing dries up real fast with the 1000wat hps its in a small grow area. and i actually noticed the they were 3in rockwell cubes.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> hey AL I HAVE FOR A QUESTION! The trimming you speak of in the 2nd and 3rd weeks. Could you elaborate on this matter as I am very curious. You are putting them straight into flowering so exactly how much of the lower part of the plant do you remove and doesnt this late trimming affect overall yield? Sry if you already answered this, I have scanned many pages of your thread and am very impressed, however missed this issue.


You're looking to remove any branch which gets more than about an inch long, from the lower 1/3 of the plant. It takes a couple of passes at pruning, hence my advice to prune in wks 2 & 3. The lower branches produce poorly and restrict air circ around the plant in a SoG op. 

The per-plant yield is naturally lower compared to unpruned plants, but I can fit ~6-8 SoG pruned plants in the space occupied by one unpruned plant- and all the buds I get are big, fat, heavy, sticky tops, no time-wasting, hard-to-manicure 'popcorn' buds from lower branches. 

Mind, you won't want to use the SoG pruning strategy if you're only growing a very few plants. SoG is all about filling a lighted space with as many top colas as you can pack in. This is done by growing a greater number of smaller plants. 

SoG has a real legal drawback given that it depends on high plant numbers, but the quality improvement and ease of manicuring large top buds is attractive. 



weed13 said:


> the thing is that i in my grow area the humidty gets down 2 about 30 and everthing dries up real fast with the 1000wat hps its in a small grow area. and i actually noticed the they were 3in rockwell cubes.


It's a far greater sin to have excessively high humidity than excessively low. I've never lost a plant to low RH but have lost plenty to bud mould and other problems. 30-50% is ideal, but if RH does wander lower, don't fret. 

About the only problem I can think of made worse by low RH is spider mites. Simple- don't bring mites in. Wear clean clothes, make sure the soles of your shoes are clean and avoid contact with any outdoor plants before entering your op.


----------



## TheGardenMan (Jan 9, 2008)

My plan is just to use the method of trimming and keeping only the top cola. It wont be a fully loaded sog. Just 6-8 plants that will be vegged less and hurried into flowering.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

TGM, sounds like a plan. You'll like not having to manicure tiny buds from lower branches.


----------



## TheGardenMan (Jan 9, 2008)

Thanks, hope it will work as good as i plan. I dont think ill upgrade my light just yet. Maybe after my second grow cause a 400watt hps is plenty light for 6 big colas


----------



## kayasgarden (Jan 9, 2008)

i have one 600 hps and my room is about 6x4 and i want 20 one gal pots is this gonna be to crowded and will they get enough light?

Very inspiring thread you have here, beautiful operation!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

TheGardenMan said:


> Thanks, hope it will work as good as i plan. I dont think ill upgrade my light just yet. Maybe after my second grow cause a 400watt hps is plenty light for 6 big colas


More than plenty. 

A 400 will cover 8 sq ft. If you use 8" dia pots, you'll be able to fit 8-10 SoG-pruned plants in the coverage area. That'll keep you stoned stoopid for a while.


----------



## kayasgarden (Jan 9, 2008)

sweet my veg box is a bit smaller with a 400 so i should get some nice shit!!!! ill be happy if it looks half as nice as yours!!! so i can fit a total of 30 maybe i should go for it? Then i too could do a few plants every two weeks!!!! So is the inital cloning station considered a phase of growth like p 1 then into soil is p2 then vegging is stage three or do you put roots into soil and then straight veg? i know i read it but now i cant find it


----------



## TheGardenMan (Jan 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> More than plenty.
> 
> A 400 will cover 8 sq ft. If you use 8" dia pots, you'll be able to fit 8-10 SoG-pruned plants in the coverage area. That'll keep you stoned stoopid for a while.


thanks for the great laugh i needed it. Thanks for all the help for my future sog, it will definetly be coming so keep your eyes open for it. What strain would you recommend. Im looking for great yields and super chronic bud.


----------



## TheGardenMan (Jan 9, 2008)

How many times will i have to trim these girls up? Will it be a one time thing, also just making sure about the trimming. Im trying the leaves not the branches?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

weed13 said:


> how many time should i water them im one day? im thinking flooding the table 4 times a during 18/6. how that sound?


Clay pellets hold next to no water at all. You can flood mature plants in pellets for about 2-3 min every 60-90min during lights-on. The flood level should not reach the rockwool cube. Keeping the cube saturated will cause you grief. Plants in pellets should be hand watered from the top a couple of times a day for the first week or until you see roots poking out from the pot drain holes. Avoid saturating the RW cube when hand watering.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

kayasgarden said:


> i have one 600 hps and my room is about 6x4 and i want 20 one gal pots is this gonna be to crowded and will they get enough light?
> 
> Very inspiring thread you have here, beautiful operation!


Figure that you need about 50W/sq ft of HPS for flowering. A 600 will cover 12 sq ft. An efficient batwing reflector ought to make the 600 nicely cover a 3' x 4' space. 

I haven't a clue of the linear dimensions of a gallon pot to tell you how many will fit in the 12 sf lighted floorspace under your 600.


----------



## gvega187 (Jan 9, 2008)

hmm...related to this matter mr. fuct, would you say that the higher wattage hps u use, the denser your buds will be? I have seen this on another thread somewhere, but was in disbelief. Will a 1000w hps produce denser and heavier buds than a 600?


----------



## kayasgarden (Jan 9, 2008)

i would think absolutly thanks for the help cant wait to see how it goes


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> Will a 1000w hps produce denser and heavier buds than a 600?


Yes and no. There's a theoretical maximum of possible bud density. A bud won't ever become as dense as a piece of wood, for example. 

With all other factors correct, you'll get the maximum possible density with HPS lighting of just about all levels of output- depending on the bud's proximity to the lamp tube. You'll get rock-solid buds with a 150W HPS converted security light, but you won't get that density much more than 8-10" from the lamp tube. A 1000 will develop solid nugs 36-40" from the tube. 

What greater power lamps really give you is that maximum over a larger area, notably down low on the plant and over a greater number of plants as the coverage area is larger. More power improves depth of foliar penetration, particularly at the limits of the lamp's coverage area and in areas shaded by other foliage. This improves the _average_ density and thus yield over all buds produced. 

There is a point of diminishing returns with HPS in flowering; that'd be somewhere between 50-60W/sq ft. I run about 61W/sf. Wouldn't make much difference to add any more as I already get solid buds to the bottom of the pruned area of each of my budstalks.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Jan 9, 2008)

how close could you crowd plants?

or would it even matter with proper air flow and lollipopping?


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 9, 2008)

4/ square ft is not unheard of


----------



## Dubbuh (Jan 9, 2008)

this thread is awesome. you dah man. i know ur first post is from like a year ago, but man nice system i've been inspired.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> how close could you crowd plants?
> 
> or would it even matter with proper air flow and lollipopping?


Like LjI said, 4 per sf isn't unheard of. I've used 8" dia pots for years, but when I replace them, I'll be getting 6" dia- for 4 plants per sf.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

Dubbuh said:


> this thread is awesome. you dah man. i know ur first post is from like a year ago, but man nice system i've been inspired.


Thanks. If you like what you see so far, hang around. I'm about to put a set of cooltubes on my 1000s. Things will improve yet again, I hope.


----------



## SoloGro57 (Jan 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Clay pellets hold next to no water at all. You can flood mature plants in pellets for about 2-3 min every 60-90min during lights-on. The flood level should not reach the rockwool cube. Keeping the cube saturated will cause you grief. Plants in pellets should be hand watered from the top a couple of times a day for the first week or until you see roots poking out from the pot drain holes. Avoid saturating the RW cube when hand watering.


So, just for clarification, once my plants have roots coming out the bottom of their 4in rockwool cubes, you suggest that all I do is keep the pellets where the roots are growing. moist on a regular basis throughout the lights-on period. Are you saying that once the plants are mature with roots extending well into the clay pellets, I never need to water them from the top again? Thanks for your insight.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Jan 9, 2008)

so how would one trim/train plants say a flood tray that measures 16" by 8" and wanted to fit 4 plants in there


how would i keep things from getting to overcrowded?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 9, 2008)

SoloGro57 said:


> Are you saying that once the plants are mature with roots extending well into the clay pellets, I never need to water them from the top again?


Yep! 



LoudBlunts said:


> so how would one trim/train plants say a flood tray that measures 16" by 8" and wanted to fit 4 plants in there
> 
> 
> how would i keep things from getting to overcrowded?



Read back a few posts - I cover that in detail.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Jan 10, 2008)

i was just making sure im doing everything right.

i wanna prune a lil in 1 and 3 week of flowering too...


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 10, 2008)

give it up to AL B for 1000 posts on his next post!!!

this really is a great thread... and a prime example on how to setup a very proffesional grow... thank you for taking your time and sharing it with us!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2008)

No prob, LjI, thanks for that. 

I suppose this one is appropriate for post #1000... 

Need to run 2 cooltubes for the 2x 1000W HPS in the flowering area. Went out and got some, trying them out in mockup. 

Was thinking about running them in series to avoid having a Y pipe and extra 150mm ducting running around. 



This test setup on my garage floor is with one cooltube and a single 1000. Raises the air temp about 8-9C (note dual digital thermo readings, remote sensor is in the output airflow)- I might be able to get away with running them in series. 



Wouldn't feel too bad about feeding cooling air at 30C into the second tube. 



Try THIS on a fully warmed up 1000 without a cooltube.... yes, it runs cool enough to lay your hand on the cooltube- and leave it there.

I only have one spare 1000 ballast, will have to pull one out of the op to try this out fully in mockup with two running 1000s. Not in the mood to muck with it any more just now, will do it later... but I think I'll probably see output air temp at about 40C. Will keep a LOT of heat out of the flowering room airmass.

I am concerned about how much light will be lost through the cooltube glass. I have a lux meter and will do some comparisons. 

I don't much like the reflector in the cooltubes- I'd prefer to be able to use these tubes with my existing batwing shades. The cooltube reflectors will be cut out and the cooltubes will be fitted to my batwings to keep the highly adjustable light spread. I will lose the sliding tube socket mount now used by the batwings, but I think I'll get by. I don't change that adjustment often anyway.


----------



## tech209 (Jan 10, 2008)

wow man great thread....im thinkin bout doing something like you in my closet but spit it into three sections ...one for the mothers,one with a 400w hps for 1-4 weeks,and another for 4-8 weeks with a 400w hps and as for clones have a rubbermaid custom clone box with lid for cuttings and this will all be grown in organic soil with either 2 or 3 gallon grow bags you think it might work????? ......


----------



## Scotland (Jan 10, 2008)

Thanks for answering my stupid question about 40mm cubes! A few more questions for you which I hope are a little more taxing!

1) You mentioned that you top your mothers - what height do you do this and do you do it regularly (during every regeneration of the mother)?

2) I have read through your thread a few times and the set up that excites me is a DWC with your method. I found container on the web that illustrates my idea:





If I used 4 of these, one per phase and also 1 for the mothers - I think that would be a decent set up for the small-medium grower as you could influence each stage exclusively. My question regarding this set up is about the nutes. I read somewhere that you have to use a lower nute ppm for DWC as the roots are in contact with the water all the time. Is this true and if so - what ppm should I use for the stages you use?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2008)

tech209 said:


> this will all be grown in organic soil with either 2 or 3 gallon grow bags you think it might work????? ......


I wouldn't do soil. Heavy, messy, much less productive than flood hydro. 



Scotland said:


> 1) You mentioned that you top your mothers - what height do you do this and do you do it regularly (during every regeneration of the mother)?


I don't really aim for any specific height to trim the mums back to. It's usually a battle to cut them down _*severely enough*_ so that they're not growing into the mums' 400 HPS in 15 days' time, when I'll next need a batch of cuttings. Have a look at this thread I did about cloning. Gives some idea on how to handle pruning mums. 

Beyond snipping all growing tips remaining after doing a batch of cuttings, I do cut back woody mainstem growth on 'older' mums (more than about 6-8 wks) to force the mum to sprout branches from lower down on the plant, if only to keep the plants from getting too tall. 

Eventually, the older mums' woody mainstems make the plant too tall to allow sufficient fresh growth to provide cuttings, while staying out of the light. I thank the old mums for all the great clones- and put them unceremoniously in the compost. My veg patch out back yums up composted cannabis plant waste quite happily. I put at least 2-3kg of cannabis trimming waste in the compost every time I do a pass of cuttings and harvest a tray. Totally gone in 7-10 days, depending on temperature. I just may have the happiest compost worms on earth.  



> 2) I have read through your thread a few times and the set up that excites me is a DWC with your method. I found container on the web that illustrates my idea:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well spotted. If ever there was a practical way to do a DWC/aero SoG, I think you've found it. O2 to the roots is the name of the game and eliminating non-O2 bearing media, as this tub system would do, is the only way forward. DWC/aero maximises O2 contact with roots and thus productivity. 

I've considered ways of doing an aero or DWC SoG in the past but always found it too complex in terms of daily usage as well as limits on plant mobility. Plants in this system you picture won't be quite as mobile as they are in pots of media as rootmasses will eventually knit. I like to be able to pick up plants and move them around in their trays from time to time to allow slower performers to be in more preferential light positions as well as to have full access to all sides of the plant for spraying, etc. 

If I ran a tub system like this as a DWC, I'd probably use a master nutrient tank and plumb water lines to each tub, to make bi-weekly nute dumps easier. You'd only have to dump the master tank, perhaps flush the system with pH 5.5-5.8 water before mixing up a new master tank of nutes. I'd also put air stones/bubble curtains in the master and plant tubs.

It could run as an aero if the tubs were tall enough to allow the roots to hang in the mist over the water level yet allow sufficient space for a decent amount of water capacity. 6 plants will suck up 6-10 litres per day depending on level of development. Mist from a bubble curtain in the tub will do fine. Aero systems which make their mist by forcing water through spray apertures are prone to failure through clogging of their sprayers with nute salts unless cleaned AT LEAST every 2 days. 

When an air pump fails in DWC, roots will very quickly die. When an air pump fails in an aero system, the plants will wilt, also within a few hours. Aero or DWC systems should have redundant air pumps- and you should keep spares on hand. Air pumps always quit on holiday weekends. 

You have to remember, I'm a lazy frickin' stoner. I use the flood system because it's dead-set easy, doesn't require frequent cleaning and has some failsafes. Flood systems using absorbent media can get plants through a couple of days when a pump has failed and I haven't looked in on the op, as I am prone to do and as often happens with cheap aquarium pumps... 

Nute strength in DWC won't be too different to flood, aim for 1400ppm, pH around 5.5-5.8. DWC systems seem to like some added Mg so chuck in about a teaspoon of Epsom Salts per 100L of tank volume when you mix up a fresh tank of nutes every second week. 

Have a go. I think you'll find it a bit fiddly in the long term, but it'll grow some nice plants.


----------



## tech209 (Jan 11, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *tech209*  
_this will all be grown in organic soil with either 2 or 3 gallon grow bags you think it might work????? ......_

I wouldn't do soil. Heavy, messy, much less productive than flood hydro. 


so when you say less productive...you talkin about less yield vs the ebb and flow???? really dont want to deal with hydro and all that water being all over the place....wanted to work with 40 2 gal grow bags filled with fox farm ocean forest but hey everyone has their op right....organic sog here i come.......


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2008)

tech209 said:


> so when you say less productive...you talkin about less yield vs the ebb and flow????


Yep.



> really dont want to deal with hydro and all that water being all over the place....wanted to work with 40 2 gal grow bags filled with fox farm ocean forest but hey everyone has their op right....organic sog here i come.......


There's not 'water all over the place' in hydro ops- unless they leak!

If you feel like lumping 40 bags of soil into your house every few weeks... and finding a way to dispose 40 _*WET*_ bags of soil after use... you have a lot more patience and energy than I do.


----------



## tech209 (Jan 11, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ditto my space is 5'Lx2'Wx6'H will be using 2 400w hps just need to look for a tray if i am going that route to fit in their also leaving space for my mama's on another note do you even flush during the last week????? i also noticed that u use 8'' pots wuts the gallon on those????? can u use grow bags in ebbnflow????......


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2008)

Be careful of labels. 'Organic' isn't always good. I'm delighted to run a non-organic media, chemical nute fueled op. Means I have only one organism to worry about- the plants. 

A 175mm x 200mm pot, as I use, would hold 1.271328 US gallons. Roughly 100 grams of rockwool, about 90g of Fytocell... or about 2-3kg for wet soil.

Don't even think about trying to water containers of soil with a flood system. Silt & grit will get loose and destroy the water pump.


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 11, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Be careful of labels. 'Organic' isn't always good. I'm delighted to run a non-organic media, chemical nute fueled op. Means I have only one organism to worry about- the plants.
> 
> A 175mm x 200mm pot, as I use, would hold 1.271328 US gallons. Roughly 100 grams of rockwool, about 90g of Fytocell... or about 2-3kg for wet soil.
> 
> Don't even think about trying to water containers of soil with a flood system. Silt & grit will get loose and destroy the water pump.


but my mycorrhizae and other beneficial bacteria ARE MY FRIENDS
but my teas stink, especially with the different poos in it... hahha

i agree though for a more massive op i'd go chem nutes... follow a strict regimine (lucas formula is nice and easy)
maybe do hempy buckets though if i didn't want to mess with water pumps and whatnot...


----------



## tech209 (Jan 11, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Be careful of labels. 'Organic' isn't always good. I'm delighted to run a non-organic media, chemical nute fueled op. Means I have only one organism to worry about- the plants.
> 
> A 175mm x 200mm pot, as I use, would hold 1.271328 US gallons. Roughly 100 grams of rockwool, about 90g of Fytocell... or about 2-3kg for wet soil.
> 
> Don't even think about trying to water containers of soil with a flood system. Silt & grit will get loose and destroy the water pump.


 
oooooohhhhhh yeeeeaaaahhhhh i know better that to place soil in a ebb n flow...that a big dee de deeeeeeee move right there but you do got a point its gonna cost me almost the same if i just go with the ebb n flow method now in search of 1x2 trays for my closet oh on another note to save space cant i just use the clippings that are done during the 2-3 weeks for clones insted of having the mother plants so i got more space to work with....


----------



## LoudBlunts (Jan 11, 2008)

since you dont like organic and other mediums....what do you do with your used RW? i think the only reason why im going organic medium(if not all organic) at least is because...i feel that i could discard my used rapid rooter plugs/ coco starter plugs easier than RW....as well as the coco medium and the like.

Second question, im pretty sure you're oldschool. So can you school me on these slabs? Hw would one flood the slab? Would you open the ends? and just leave the wrapping elsewhere? Would i also cut just a spot out for my netpot or cube? Or could I just unwrap the whole thing use it/fill the flood tray as if im filling a pot with soil? Then putting my plug or cube in the medium? covering the top necessary right? would the particles dust whatever from the slab fuck up my ebb and flo connectors?

im really interested in these coco....


next question i have about that cooltube...how are you properly cooling that? are you blowing air thru the tube with a fan on both ends one blowing other exhausting?? whas the most efficient way to cool an aircooled hood (cuz apparently im all wrong)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2008)

tech209 said:


> on another note to save space cant i just use the clippings that are done during the 2-3 weeks for clones insted of having the mother plants so i got more space to work with....


Cuttings taken from plants which have been under flowering cycle lighting for more than a week or so are notoriously slow to set root. The longer the donor plant has been in flower, the harder it is to get them to strike. If your first batch of cuttings from your plants in flower doesn't take, your next set won't be much better. 

Keeping mums seems a hassle but it's necessary insurance. You really only need 2 mums, one you're taking cuts from and one vegging up to be your next mum, as well as being insurance against an unexpected death of the mum you're actively using. 

Cuttings taken from plants in constant veg lighting set root most readily and perform best in the no-veg-time SoG environment. In SoG, we depend on the plants continuing to be in a declining veg mode for the first 2-3 wks of flowering so they will gain some height, while beginning to develop bud sites. It's best if the clones have come from plants in constant veg and have themselves been kept under veg cycle lighting in the clonebox so they are still in veg mode when they set root and get chucked in the flowering area.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> since you dont like organic and other mediums....what do you do with your used RW? i think the only reason why im going organic medium(if not all organic) at least is because...i feel that i could discard my used rapid rooter plugs/ coco starter plugs easier than RW....as well as the coco medium and the like.


When I can be bothered, I point a fan at pots of old media just sitting on the floor until the material is dry. Most times, I don't bother to dry the stuff out. I usually take plants out of the op a day or two before I start work on manicuring, so the plant is still sucking up water from the media, making the stuff fairly lightweight by the time to turf it out. Dry or not, I just bag it in ordinary looking rubbish bags and dispose of it in common rubbish. Your mileage may vary- of course, media disposal is a security issue and you're the best judge of your situation. 



> Second question, im pretty sure you're oldschool.


If 'oldschool' means 'using stuff known to work,' I'll go with that. 


> So can you school me on these slabs? Hw would one flood the slab? Would you open the ends? and just leave the wrapping elsewhere? Would i also cut just a spot out for my netpot or cube? Or could I just unwrap the whole thing use it/fill the flood tray as if im filling a pot with soil? Then putting my plug or cube in the medium? covering the top necessary right? would the particles dust whatever from the slab fuck up my ebb and flo connectors?


I presume you're referring to rockwool slabs. I don't use them. I use rockwool floc, which is simply crumbled rockwool sold in bulk bags. 



> im really interested in these coco....


You're on your own with coco. It's an organic medium and I can't advise you.



> next question i have about that cooltube...how are you properly cooling that? are you blowing air thru the tube with a fan on both ends one blowing other exhausting?? whas the most efficient way to cool an aircooled hood (cuz apparently im all wrong)


The fan should be pushing cool air into the cooltube. Arranging the fan so it is in the warm air stream on the output end would quickly overheat the blower's fan motor. 

I've seen aircooled hoods which, by absence of a sheet of glass over the lamp, require that you put the fan in the warm airstream. Really poor design. These hoods will eat exhaust fans. A proper aircooled hood should be sealed up so you can force air into it and just connect a duct from a warm air output port to dispose of the hot stuff, without running it through another fan.


----------



## Altair Everex (Jan 11, 2008)

just a few questions...

~u get about 3/4 of an ounce per plant on avg?

~how deep do you flood a table? is there a specific method to figuring it out depending on the numbers of plants?

~will a 1000watt HPS light be fine for 2 4'x5' tables? seems like overkill on the lumens. then again, im probably doing the calculations wrong.

~i can fit 4 plants per square foot right? so that means around 80 plants on a 4x5 table?

~how do i figure the number of mums needed to provide the number of cuttings i need for those size tables?

~i got the exhaust set for full air exchange every 2-3 minutes. but what about air intake for fresh air?

all i could think of at the moment. thx in advance for any and all help given


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2008)

Altair Everex said:


> just a few questions...
> 
> ~u get about 3/4 of an ounce per plant on avg?


Yep, doing better lately, more like 1z per plant. 



> ~how deep do you flood a table? is there a specific method to figuring it out depending on the numbers of plants?


Floods to the height of the overflow tube included with the flood tray (approx 70mm), no calculations at all. 



> ~will a 1000watt HPS light be fine for 2 4'x5' tables? seems like overkill on the lumens. then again, im probably doing the calculations wrong.


No, you would need one 1000 per each 4'x5' (20sq ft) tray. You're looking for 50W/sq ft.



> ~i can fit 4 plants per square foot right? so that means around 80 plants on a 4x5 table?


Yep. 



> ~how do i figure the number of mums needed to provide the number of cuttings i need for those size tables?


Figure you need to cut about 10-20% more clones than you intend to flower. I get 30 cuttings every 2 weeks from 8-10 mother plants, intending to flower about 23 of them. Spares become replacement mums or compost.



> ~i got the exhaust set for full air exchange every 2-3 minutes. but what about air intake for fresh air?


Not sure I understand what you mean. What goes in is what goes out. If your exhaust blower can shift the room air volume out in 2-3 minutes, it's got to come back in from somewhere- or you have a vacuum!  Make sure your exhaust air can not be sucked right back into the op. 

If you use passive intake (no intake blower), the intake duct must be 2x the size of the exhaust for reasonably efficient operation. If you use intake blower/s, the rate of intake should not be more than about 80-90% of the exhaust rate so the room remains at slightly negative pressure. This aids in scent control- all air leaving the room goes through the exhaust duct. If the intake blower can put more air into the room than the exhaust blower can remove, the room will be at a slightly positive pressure relative to atmosphere. Scents will leak out from any small air gaps.


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 11, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've seen aircooled hoods which, by absence of a sheet of glass over the lamp, require that you put the fan in the warm airstream. Really poor design. These hoods will eat exhaust fans. A proper aircooled hood should be sealed up so you can force air into it and just connect a duct from a warm air output port to dispose of the hot stuff, without running it through another fan.



... i need to reconfigure my cooltube fan placement.... THANK YOU!

this might help a lot

besides overheating the fan... are fans better at pushing than pulling? j/w


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> are fans better at pushing than pulling? j/w


If you're moving air from free airspace into a duct, it's better to push air into the duct, with the blower at the head end of the duct. If you pull air through a duct, there will be a tendency for the fan blades to 'cavitate' at standard operating RPM, something like an airplane wing stalling. This occurs due to the reduced air pressure in the duct you're trying to draw air through. 

Axials are more prone to this phenomenon than are centrifugals, but centrifs also work more efficiently pushing into a duct than pulling from one.


----------



## rita (Jan 12, 2008)

impressed and well done, but I dont know enough yet to tackle hydro babes, still struggling with 1st attempt but heartened by reading the posts here, thanks


----------



## gvega187 (Jan 12, 2008)

damnit you just know everything about everything dont you. I just read your clones thread and learned a crap-ton...and to think i called my cuttings clones... neways wonderin if your gonna keep us posted on your next cycle?


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (Jan 12, 2008)

Hey Al B, its me again, the one with your setup but with soil. Im considering converting to a flood system but I notice you say the floc you use is not reusable, this makes me draw the conclusion that you have just as much labor involved with getting the floc in and disposing of it afterwards, similarly to soil. Whats the logic in this?


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (Jan 12, 2008)

Oh and thought I'd mention this- with my soil setup Im harvesting the same amount as you but you are right soil is a little messy, but so is floc! Im considering pellets...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 13, 2008)

gvega187 said:


> damnit you just know everything about everything dont you. I just read your clones thread and learned a crap-ton...and to think i called my cuttings clones... neways wonderin if your gonna keep us posted on your next cycle?


Nah, I hardly know 'everything.' I do know a little bit about science tho, inclusive of aerodynamics. A fan will push better than it can pull because free air pressure is higher and air is thus denser than that inside a duct you're evacuating with a blower. Blower fan blades are contoured for operation at standard atmospheric pressure, probably sea level.

I probably won't do a running grow diary. It'd be like photographing my breakfast every day. I'm more apt to post something when I have something new or improved going on. 



OhYesTheDopeMan said:


> Hey Al B, its me again, the one with your setup but with soil. Im considering converting to a flood system but I notice you say the floc you use is not reusable, this makes me draw the conclusion that you have just as much labor involved with getting the floc in and disposing of it afterwards, similarly to soil. Whats the logic in this?


Rockwool floc is roughly 1/20 the weight of potting soil. A 175mm x 200mm pot of the stuff weighs about 100g. An equivalent amt of dry soil would weigh about 2kg. I can carry a (bit more than a) month's supply of media, a 100L bag of Fytocell, enough to fill 60 pots, with one hand. Try that with soil. Got the logic now?

If you're harvesting the same as I am out of your soil op, you're a very lucky person. It's a lot harder to get O2 to the roots in soil than in hydro systems, of any arrangement. 



OhYesTheDopeMan said:


> Oh and thought I'd mention this- with my soil setup Im harvesting the same amount as you but you are right soil is a little messy, but so is floc! Im considering pellets...


Floc is hardly messy at all- it clumps together, making it very easy to handle. I'm only using about 50mm of floc in the bottom of each pot these days, just enough to plug the drain holes. The remainder is filled with Fytocell flake, which itself weighs only about 1/2 of what floc does. Unfortunately, Fytocell doesn't clump- and makes a mess if spilled. 

Pellets are a major pain in the ass. Drop a handful and you will chase them around the room and crunch them underfoot. They are technically reusable but nearly impossible to clean totally free of old root material. They're roughly 2x the weight of floc and 4x the weight of Fytocell.


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (Jan 13, 2008)

where do you find floc and fytocell? Since yours is submerged flood, what do you do for the first week or two before roots are long enough? Yup same amount as you mentioned in the first few pages, took me a try or two but it works! I also don't trim lower branches, they made up for about 1/5 of total dry weight and ones with no lower branches just yielded less


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 13, 2008)

OhYesTheDopeMan said:


> where do you find floc and fytocell?


ye olde hydro shoppe.



> Since yours is submerged flood, what do you do for the first week or two before roots are long enough?


Floc and Fytocell both wick enough water to supply roots immediately. Fytocell requires being wetted fully from the top (I use a spare pump and a length of garden hose) before plugging clones in. Floc can simply be flooded normally- and in fact should not be saturated by top-watering before plugging in clones. 



> Yup same amount as you mentioned in the first few pages, took me a try or two but it works! I also don't trim lower branches, they made up for about 1/5 of total dry weight and ones with no lower branches just yielded less


Amazing. :/ Got pics?


----------



## infamouse21 (Jan 13, 2008)

i like the pushing air through the system better, makes total cents.
my only problem is the fan makes a little noise so i keep it at the tail end so i dont hear it much.
but ill go check it out mid day tomorrow & see what temp comes out of it


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 13, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> i like the pushing air through the system better, makes total cents.
> my only problem is the fan makes a little noise so i keep it at the tail end so i dont hear it much.
> but ill go check it out mid day tomorrow & see what temp comes out of it


Yep, having a bit of duct on the inlet will quieten it a lot. 

The old cardboard box trick works OK too- a large packing carton (several times the size of the duct) fitted over the inlet to the fan, with a quantity of 2-3" dia holes cut in the box, makes a sorta-effective muffler on the quick & dirty cheap. Anything which interrupts a direct line from fan to ear will reduce noise. 

Odorsoks and carbon filters make pretty good free-flowing mufflers if you can spend some money. 

If you must, and have the excess fan capacity to get away with it, put a motor speed controller on the fan. A fan at 80% of rated speed makes a lot less than 80% of usual noise.

However, if your grow has only one ventilation blower, it should be on the exhaust, placed high in the room and forcing air into a duct leading to some place where the warm, moist, CO2 depleted air will not be immediately sucked back in the room.


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> However, if your grow has only one ventilation blower, it should be on the exhaust, placed high in the room and forcing air into a duct leading to some place where the warm, moist, CO2 depleted air will not be immediately sucked back in the room.


thats a very important point for smaller grows where space is real confined... you don't want your exhaust to be half the air that comes into the grow..

i tried repping ya but i gotta spread the love more... you've been making a lot of sense to me =] (i recently found out of your past duties on another now defunct site, so its not too shocking)


----------



## TheGardenMan (Jan 13, 2008)

hey lumberjack is the rep system working again?


----------



## infamouse21 (Jan 13, 2008)

just got a 6in odorsok, lol. havent used it yet hopefully it works good. also good point it should slow the fan down a little & help with the noise, where can u get a speed control?
we use the fan we got now just to cool the hood & that air comes from outside the room & leaves the room thats it for venting. also put a few small holes in the vent so it pulls some air from i nthe room.
thinking about getting another small one on a timer to suck air out the room a few times a day.


----------



## TheGardenMan (Jan 13, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> just got a 6in odorsok, lol. havent used it yet hopefully it works good. also good point it should slow the fan down a little & help with the noise, where can u get a speed control?
> we use the fan we got now just to cool the hood & that air comes from outside the room & leaves the room thats it for venting. also put a few small holes in the vent so it pulls some air from i nthe room.
> thinking about getting another small one on a timer to suck air out the room a few times a day.


I read your post and saw you were looking for a fan speed controller, so i googled a bit and found one so here you go. Hope it works for you. 

Electronic Fan Speed Controllers


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 13, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> thats a very important point for smaller grows where space is real confined... you don't want your exhaust to be half the air that comes into the grow..
> 
> i tried repping ya but i gotta spread the love more... you've been making a lot of sense to me =] (i recently found out of your past duties on another now defunct site, so its not too shocking)


heh, thanks. Yes, I was once a Mentor on Overgrow. I bailed off OG about a year before the Canadian govt went mad and decided to allow the US DEA to enforce US drug laws (or at least the will of King George) in Canada. 



infamouse21 said:


> just got a 6in odorsok, lol. havent used it yet hopefully it works good. also good point it should slow the fan down a little & help with the noise, where can u get a speed control?
> we use the fan we got now just to cool the hood & that air comes from outside the room & leaves the room thats it for venting. also put a few small holes in the vent so it pulls some air from i nthe room.
> thinking about getting another small one on a timer to suck air out the room a few times a day.


I'm not quite sure what you're up to, but poking holes in your duct line doesn't sound like the way forward. 

The exhaust fan should run on a thermostat, not a timer. 





TheGardenMan said:


> I read your post and saw you were looking for a fan speed controller, so i googled a bit and found one so here you go. Hope it works for you.
> 
> Electronic Fan Speed Controllers


Your friendly local hdwe store has fan motor speed controllers. I recently bought a 300W unit for about $35 and also saw 500W units, handy for wind-tunnels.  

They will also have thermostat units. My favorite thermostat comes from here. 







Battery operated, has both normally open and normally closed terminals so it can be used to control either heaters or cooling fans.

A thermostat can combine with a motor speed controller to create an automatic 2-speed fan with 24 hour ventilation, with high speed on temp demand. Just put the MSC in parallel with the thermostat. 



When the temp is above the tstat setpoint, the fan motor will run on full normal speed. When the tstat shuts off, the MSC will keep current flowing to the fan motor so the room is ventilated at all times, but you set the MSC to run the fan motor at about 1/2 speed. This arrangement is particularly useful when you are running a carbon filter or Odorsok; air is constantly pushed thru the filter instead of scents escaping the grow room via air gaps when the fan shuts off.


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (Jan 14, 2008)

Not many, but over here https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/40912-fdd2blk-plant-reminded-you.html
theres a pic of the sea of skunk. I was really surprised too, the first 2 times I got a fraction of that but since learning how to water soiless mix properly yours and my numbers are the same. I also veg longer than you I believe. Its amazing how quick you get your shit to root, it takes me 14-20 days before I can expose mine to more powerful lighting. I went from a vermiculite method, to a bubble cloner now to oasis material and they all equally suck for me, though I've cloned successfully with all 3. Basically I put out 10-15 plants that are usually about 10" and go to about 20" by the time they're done stretching. And again I don't remove lower branching. And also, when they are leaning over because the top cola is so heavy, I let them sit like that for as long as possible so they grow horizontally for a few weeks giving all the lower branches some quality production time.


----------



## Altair Everex (Jan 17, 2008)

i dont mean question ur experience, but several other sites say that 4 per sqft is crowding the plant, true? just asking to be certain before i get to that point


----------



## potroast (Jan 18, 2008)

When I've grown many plants in a small space, I've tried it each way. I've had 4 plants/sqft, and 3, and 2, and 1 in a sqft. It all depends on your setup, and how you want to grow your plants. FWIW at that time I settled on 2 plants/sqft as being the best for me.

I guess it also depends on the strains that you are growing.

HTH


----------



## Altair Everex (Jan 18, 2008)

i plan on growin white widow, gonna order some seeds from the amsterdam shit when i finish buildin these last couple tables. im tryin to get the most bang for my buck out of 4'x5' tables. think those plants would hadle 4 per? or would i be safer at 3 per foot?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 18, 2008)

Altair Everex said:


> i dont mean question ur experience, but several other sites say that 4 per sqft is crowding the plant, true? just asking to be certain before i get to that point


If you try to keep 4 UNPRUNED plants per sq ft, yes- they'll be seriously crowded. However, the pruning method employed in SoG (remove all branching on lower 1/3 of the plant) solves this problem.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 18, 2008)

Altair Everex said:


> i plan on growin white widow, gonna order some seeds from the amsterdam shit when i finish buildin these last couple tables. im tryin to get the most bang for my buck out of 4'x5' tables. think those plants would hadle 4 per? or would i be safer at 3 per foot?


Should be no problem at all with White Widow. WW is not a terribly bushy strain as it is- if you prune correctly for SoG, 4 per sf will be fine.


----------



## Altair Everex (Jan 19, 2008)

sweet, just what i wanted to hear


----------



## CaliGurl (Jan 21, 2008)

When I put a fresh clone in to flower, it has only known 24 hour daylight, either on the mum plant or in the clone box. It takes about 3 weeks in 12/12 to switch _*fully*_ from vegetative to flowering mode, even on high-P nutes. The plants will grow vegetatively for a few weeks on 12/12 but will stop gaining height at wk 3-4 all by themselves at about 1 metre tall.



*Since you switch your clones from 24/7 to 12/12 after they root, do you have any issues with stressing your plants with the change like that or do any of your plants turn...?? I was talking to a friend and he told me he does a gradual decline in light because he had an issue with them turning hermie , I know that can beause my other factors as well but what sort of issues do you have if any?*


----------



## rifishman (Jan 21, 2008)

Al B,
Many thanks for the inspiration in this thread. It took me until my 3rd grow cycle to really grasp what you have written. I have successfully got the cloning down (I think), and just set 16 plants into the flower room to begin their 8 week oddessy.

My first grown in an upstairs closet yielded some very nice Mr. Nice G13x Hash Plant. I even got one plant of Marley's Collie, which BTW, is a superb smoke.

Second grow was Durban Poison as I prefer the sativa's.

The plant which seems to thrive well, clone nicely, is the Bangi Haze. The plants seem very easy to root when cloning and seem to take a lot of abuse while I am learning things.

It took me several months of reading your cloning advise to realize that I was using a 3" Rockwool cube when I should have been using a 1.5". Should have done the MM to Inches conversion early on.

Here is a shot at the flowering room. Working on Room 3 now which I am going to do in the Ebb and Grow. The present flowering room has 2 each Eurogrower units holding 8 plants each.

Keep up the great writing and teaching skills for all of us.

rifishman


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 21, 2008)

CaliGurl said:


> *Since you switch your clones from 24/7 to 12/12 after they root, do you have any issues with stressing your plants with the change like that or do any of your plants turn...?? I was talking to a friend and he told me he does a gradual decline in light because he had an issue with them turning hermie , I know that can beause my other factors as well but what sort of issues do you have if any?*


Something else was turning your mate's plants hermie. I've been slamming clones from 24/7 to 12/12 for about 7 years now; hermaphrodism isn't one of my problems.


----------



## CaliGurl (Jan 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Something else was turning your mate's plants hermie. I've been slamming clones from 24/7 to 12/12 for about 7 years now; hermaphrodism isn't one of my problems.


 
*I do predomantly soil, ok actually like all soil... and he was as well, I think it was his ph flippin em?? but not sure, I just heard from someone that induced stress can cause them to flip, they gave me light as an example, and was curious if you had issues. WOW well I can say after almost 40 pages of this, this thread should have been half that lol, YOU ALL LAZY ASS NEED TO READ FIRST!!! lol. N-E-Ways great thread Al, I think you have more specifics ect.. in this one then on GC there, glad I came over. I unfortunately am completely inept when it comes to hydro, but have been hearing all sorts of great things and desperately want to switch as soil is an ass pain. I have however been reading a bit aout hydro and would like to know of a good guide to follow as far as construction of the actual Hydro system goes. Do you by cahnce have the construction of you system on here or anyone else have one similar where you have ACTUAL instructions, im not a pic person I have to read it to do it. any advice, help, inof much appreciated.*

*Grazi *


----------



## CALIGROWN (Jan 21, 2008)

you still havn't got started on your h-dro???


----------



## CaliGurl (Jan 22, 2008)

CALIGROWN said:


> you still havn't got started on your h-dro???


 
*I assume thats directed to me? If so No I havent busy lady  plus want to have all my stuff in order and together before I just throw sumthing up.*


----------



## Hillbilly420 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thats a kick ass setup...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 23, 2008)

CaliGurl said:


> * Do you by cahnce have the construction of you system on here or anyone else have one similar where you have ACTUAL instructions, im not a pic person I have to read it to do it. any advice, help, inof much appreciated.*


You've asked me that a couple of times; I don't have anything written up specifically about the construction of the op. Quite a lot of it is specific to where my op is located. 

My op is basically 5 independent flood systems; one small, roughly 1' x 3' tray lighted with a 400HPS for mums and four 820mm x 820mm in the flowering area with a 1000HPS over each pair. All this is located in a room lined with panda film, an oscillating circ fan in each corner and thermostatically operated intake and exhaust fans. It's really no more complex than that. 

The real magic comes in how one actually grows the plants, with sequential feeding of a batch of cuttings into the op every 2 weeks and pruning of the branching off the lower 1/3 of the plants in wks 1 & 3. The result is mainly top colas, with a batch ready to harvest every 2 weeks.


----------



## Altair Everex (Jan 23, 2008)

i can start with like 1 table of flowering and introduce more as money is available? like start with 1 table for 8 weeks of flowering, introduce a second table for 1-4weeks and 5-8 weeks, then introduce 2 more tables after that for the every 2 week system? just asking so i dont start and kill my children by somethin i assumed instead of knew


----------



## onehandedroller (Jan 23, 2008)

I do something simular to this on a much smaller scale.
I flower 5 plants at a time under 400w hps with ebb and flow. initially I added the plants one at a time with a couple of weeks in between. Then when harvesting started, I just add one everytime I pull one. Of course, they are clones. The plant I like to add is the clone mother as she is so cut up that she gets all kinds of nice almost cola's.
Just my 2cents


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 23, 2008)

Altair Everex said:


> i can start with like 1 table of flowering and introduce more as money is available? like start with 1 table for 8 weeks of flowering, introduce a second table for 1-4weeks and 5-8 weeks, then introduce 2 more tables after that for the every 2 week system? just asking so i dont start and kill my children by somethin i assumed instead of knew


Yes, you can build your system piecemeal if you like. Just be financially ready to buy the gear you need to expand the op when the plants are ready- or it will come to tears. You don't want to feed more plants in than you have the capacity to house.



onehandedroller said:


> initially I added the plants one at a time with a couple of weeks in between. Then when harvesting started, I just add one everytime I pull one. Of course, they are clones. The plant I like to add is the clone mother as she is so cut up that she gets all kinds of nice almost cola's.


Of course, that's exactly how it works here, else than your handling of old mums. Mums which have been cut back several times will flower copiously with many bud sites and will be very bushy. Each will occupy several times the usual space of the 'lollipopped' plants, so be ready for that. 

I find that after about 6-8 weeks of providing cuttings, my mums are losing vigor and may have picked up some gnats in the rootmass or their general weakness may make them more susceptible to powdery mildew. Instead of flowering my old mums, they go to the compost. Their rootmasses and old media go to the rubbish, along with any problems they may have acquired in their selfless service to the cause.  This prevents problems being introduced into the main flowering area.


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Of course, that's exactly how it works here, else than your handling of old mums. Mums which have been cut back several times will flower copiously with many bud sites and will be very bushy. Each will occupy several times the usual space of the 'lollipopped' plants, so be ready for that.
> 
> I find that after about 6-8 weeks of providing cuttings, my mums are losing vigor and may have picked up some gnats in the rootmass or their general weakness may make them more susceptible to powdery mildew. Instead of flowering my old mums, they go to the compost. Their rootmasses and old media go to the rubbish, along with any problems they may have acquired in their selfless service to the cause.  This prevents problems being introduced into the main flowering area.


i am a noob, so you tear down your mothers and replace them with clones? isn't that undesirable? i thought the idea was to keep the mother alive and just clip clones off when necessary


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 23, 2008)

*i am a noob, so you tear down your mothers and replace them with clones? isn't that undesirable? i thought the idea was to keep the mother alive and just clip clones off when necessary

*_As Al has said many times...After about 6-8 weeks of taking cuttings, he finds that they loose vigor, and can possibly be susceptible to bugs and mildew..By Keeping the moms young and fresh "just as we like them", the possibility for disease and problems is much lower...I rotate my moms the same way, and find that I get better cuttings due to the branches being younger and softer, not "woody" like an older plant can give..._


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 24, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> i am a noob, so you tear down your mothers and replace them with clones? isn't that undesirable? i thought the idea was to keep the mother alive and just clip clones off when necessary


Mums only last so long. 



daddychrisg said:


> _As Al has said many times...After about 6-8 weeks of taking cuttings, he finds that they loose vigor, and can possibly be susceptible to bugs and mildew..By Keeping the moms young and fresh _


yeah, wot 'e said.


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Mums only last so long.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, wot 'e said.


well excuse my naivety, as i am a newbie, but wouldn't that eventually lead to clones of clones of clones of clones...? so eventually the strain is far removed from its original mother?


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

well excuse my naivety, as i am a newbie, but wouldn't that eventually lead to clones of clones of clones of clones...? so eventually the strain is far removed from its original mother?

Hmmm..That is always debatable, but the definition of a clone is~

*1. * A cell, group of cells, or organism that is descended from and genetically identical to a single common ancestor, such as a bacterial colony whose members arose from a single original cell.
*2. * An organism descended asexually from a single ancestor, such as a plant produced by layering or a polyp produced by budding.
*3. * A DNA sequence, such as a gene, that is transferred from one organism to another and replicated by genetic engineering techniques.
*4. * One that copies or closely resembles another, as in appearance or function

Genetically a clone should have all the same characteristics that the previous plant had. I personally don't think at this point that my clones have lost any trait that the original "from seed" mother had. But I am sure someone will have a different opinion.


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 24, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> Genetically a clone should have all the same characteristics that the previous plant had. I personally don't think at this point that my clones have lost any trait that the original "from seed" mother had. But I am sure someone will have a different opinion.


i see. i mean that sounds right, but i could also see how it would deteriorate the original qualities. anyway chris, i like your avatar! very cool


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks verm....Yeah the debate is always present....


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 24, 2008)

Like dcg said, a clone is an exact DNA copy of the plant it is taken from. Nothing happens to the DNA of the clone by virtue of cutting it off the mother. 

You can replace mums with clones taken from them until hell freezes over- or at VERY least, about 6-odd years- which is around how long I've been doing it with no trouble at all. I sprouted my Sweet Tooth #4 beans in 2002 and have been cloning the strain ever since. 

There's no debate amongst the learned on this topic.... anyone who says you can't continuously replace mums with clones of themselves pretty obviously hasn't done it.


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

*There's no debate amongst the learned on this topic.... anyone who says you can't continuously replace mums with clones of themselves pretty obviously hasn't done it.

*_But for some reason...even that is debatable! LOL...clone on.._


----------



## Kage (Jan 24, 2008)

lol, i've never done it, but how is that possible? nature never ceases to amaze me. but I'm trying this next: gonna get some (real) good seeds online, grow two and clone those (2 in case one dies) after several cloning generations, I'll try growing the clones in different conditions. my assumption is that they will not take well to new climate and conditions as they are great great grandchidren clones. it's hard to say, but i think that these plants are simply very used to being cloned, after so many years, but again.... i could be dead fucking wrong. :0 ....


----------



## Kage (Jan 24, 2008)

i have to say dchris, it's a tough topic, but ehy, we've got our plants, and a full pipe-o-tak, right? so let's just.... hug eachother. kidding. later guys.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 24, 2008)

OK, looks like some folks here have a fundamental misunderstanding of asexual plant reproduction and how DNA and evolution work. Go hit the plant biology books. 

If you want to change some character of an organism, you have to change the DNA. The same DNA (and thus instructions for characters) is in all cells of the plant. Cutting a branch off a plant does not change the DNA of either the donor or cutting. 

About the only remotely plausible argument for DNA mutation under the controlled conditions of a grow room (which is absent some important DNA mutation triggers like ionising radiation from the sun) I have ever heard regards telomeres. 

In the process of aging, telomeres, which are strands on the ends of the DNA double-helix, are said to become 'frayed' in successive copies in asexual reproduction. Now, this hypothesis applies fairly well to humans, where the donor cells can be decades old and have lived through a lot of mutation opportunities. However, in 'rolling' cloning (at least in my op), the donor material is never more than 8 weeks old. I don't keep mums for 6 years and try to keep getting cuttings from them. The entire plant is replaced frequently- it's effectively a new plant, built to the instructions of the one it came from, but consisting of entirely new material to the cellular level.


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

permalink
OK, looks like some folks here have a fundamental misunderstanding of asexual plant reproduction and how DNA and evolution work. Go hit the plant biology books. 

If you want to change some character of an organism, you have to change the DNA. The same DNA (and thus instructions for characters) is in all cells of the plant. Cutting a branch off a plant does not change the DNA of either the donor or cutting. 

About the only remotely plausible argument for DNA mutation under the controlled conditions of a grow room (which is absent some important DNA mutation triggers like ionising radiation from the sun) I have ever heard regards telomeres. 

In the process of aging, telomeres, which are strands on the ends of the DNA double-helix, are said to become 'frayed' in successive copies in asexual reproduction. Now, this hypothesis applies fairly well to humans, where the donor cells can be decades old and have lived through a lot of mutation opportunities. However, in 'rolling' cloning (at least in my op), the donor material is never more than 8 weeks old. I don't keep mums for 6 years and try to keep getting cuttings from them. The entire plant is replaced frequently- it's effectively a new plant, built to the instructions of the one it came from, but consisting of entirely new material to the cellular level.

*NO argument here!*


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 24, 2008)

haha i don't mean to be dissenting, i am just typing what i think i have read. i have just heard/read that clones of clones of clones just eventually water down the line and are not as desirable as.... should i say, the seed plant? anyway i am just interpreting what i have been learning. it makes sense that clones are exact DNA replicas, but again, it also seems to make sense that the copy of a copy of a copy is not as good as the original.

also, so you take your clones and put them directly into flowering? is that stressful for the plant, like, creating less bud or less quality? i don't know too much about SOG, or the way you are doing it anyway with the flowering cycles.


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

also, so you take your clones and put them directly into flowering? is that stressful for the plant, like, creating less bud or less quality? i don't know too much about SOG, or the way you are doing it anyway with the flowering cycles.

_I don't mean to just jump in with this, but I will just throw out my thoughts on this. When you take a clone from the mom, that clone is as old as the the mother was at that time. So, if your mom is 4 weeks old, then so is your clone...So once you have roots, the clone is actually very mature... Probably about 6 weeks mature! So it is more then ready to go into bloom..._


----------



## ClumsyNinja (Jan 24, 2008)

Al B, what do you think the feasability of running SoG with something like a cylindrical Omega Garden? Would I actually need 4 of the systems to properly make it work? Your thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Jan 24, 2008)

WOW!!!! why would you buy 4 omegas? thas like 360 plant sites times 4

you dont need that many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ClumsyNinja (Jan 24, 2008)

Omega sells the smaller Volksgarden, which holds about 80 plants. To properly do the SoG, I would think there would be need of four (i.e., the four different cycles of growing in the SoG system).

Of course, to do so would require about $8G for the four cylindrical garden machines. 

80 plants, if they put out about an ounce apiece, would give forth approx 5 lbs every two weeks running a proper SoG. That would heal a lot of sick folks.


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

*Omega sells the smaller Volksgarden, which holds about 80 plants. To properly do the SoG, I would think there would be need of four (i.e., the four different cycles of growing in the SoG system).

Of course, to do so would require about $8G for the four cylindrical garden machines. 

80 plants, if they put out about an ounce apiece, would give forth approx 5 lbs every two weeks running a proper SoG. That would heal a lot of sick folks.
*_
The thing is that you are only looking, or asking about one piece of the system..The amount of mothers and the amount of cloning that you would have to keep up with would be more then a full time job...There would have to be a crew of folks tending to the needs of each stage of the plants...Other then that, fuck yeah it would work!
_


----------



## ClumsyNinja (Jan 24, 2008)

Very good point, daddy, thank you. What would be the most feasible - yet most output - one could expect to do on a solo basis?

I have the $10K to invest, and considering different systems, looking for the least amount of work with the greatest output. SoG seems to fit the bill. 

Your thoughts please?


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

We are highjacking Al's thread....You should start a new thread on the topic....I'll be there...C


----------



## daddychrisg (Jan 24, 2008)

But to answer your question and also add to this thread, I think Al pretty much has it answered....


----------



## ClumsyNinja (Jan 24, 2008)

You are correct; sorry if I led away from the thread. I started one to entertain ideas for my own operation: $10,000 Best Grow Room Ideas


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 24, 2008)

Yes, now you're hijacking! 

I like the Omega but the production difference between directly lighted cylindrical 'floorspace' and good-ol' flat floorspace with efficient reflectors just doesn't justify the outrageous per sq ft cost of the Omega. It'd take a spell for the Omega to pay for itself.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 24, 2008)

ClumsyNinja said:


> Very good point, daddy, thank you. What would be the most feasible - yet most output - one could expect to do on a solo basis?
> 
> I have the $10K to invest, and considering different systems, looking for the least amount of work with the greatest output. SoG seems to fit the bill.
> 
> Your thoughts please?


You won't need to spend $10K to build a system that will make more weed than you can work with on your own. I reckon mine can be duplicated for about 1/3 that figure- and I have a hard time doing all the work by myself as it is. 

A young ambitious person might be able to do 2x what I do but who the hell wants to be handcuffed to a grow op 7 days a week? I haven't had a holiday in years- my op will only run unattended for about 3 days, and that's only when I'm in between batches of cuttings, which need watering 2x a day...


----------



## ClumsyNinja (Jan 24, 2008)

Very good info, thank you Al. (And sorry about the hijack; damn noobs!) 

Is it possible to run your SoG system with something like the supercloset. I'm liking that unit because it is totally self-contained with seemingly everything it needs to run an op. But how would one implement the SoG using this (or would it be necessary to have two closets then)?

Greatly appreciate your patience with this noob's inquiries.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 24, 2008)

CN, you'll have to link me on the 'supercloset' as I'm not familiar with it. 

I will suggest that many brand-named kits or systems rarely innovate, but rather incorporate technologies and techniques that can be much more cheaply replicated from common sources. Even Omega is just a glorified SoG flood & drain system, if you see what I mean.

Someone postulated a few posts back whether Omegas could be used with my plant flow organisation, so I gave it a think. You would need 4 independent Omegas, one for each 2 week phase, just as I use 4 flood trays and an individual tank for each. Plant height differences would create problems if trying to introduce a batch of new clones every 2 weeks in the same Omega. Naturally, the older plants would shade the new clones and cause a few different problems from stretch to powdery mildew on the younguns. Also, I use a PK additive for 1 week only for plants in wk3. If all plants are sharing the same nute tank, this isn't possible without dosing all the other plants.


----------



## Rootex (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm just posting because to keep an eye on this thread because it won't let me subscribe to it. Very informative Fuct. appreciate it


----------



## skunkman98536 (Jan 26, 2008)

hmm nice .. iu kno i said tat before . but .. how many mothers u have and how often u take clones and how many? lol .. sorry bout the 21 querstions just wondeirng is all.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 26, 2008)

skunkman98536 said:


> hmm nice .. iu kno i said tat before . but .. how many mothers u have and how often u take clones and how many? lol .. sorry bout the 21 querstions just wondeirng is all.


All answers exist in this thread. 

I have 8-10 mums and cut 30 clones every 2 weeks.


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 26, 2008)

fuct, have you tried other methods of growing and settled on sog? it seems interesting but also a lot of space and work.


----------



## ClumsyNinja (Jan 26, 2008)

SoG seems to be the way to fly considering cost/time and output (specifically for a one man show). Thanks for all the great info and very informative thread - I'll be following your model and post a journal or such once it's in action. 

Much appreciation Al B!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 27, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> fuct, have you tried other methods of growing and settled on sog? it seems interesting but also a lot of space and work.


No, this all just came to me one night in a dream and I decided it was the best thing that has ever happened to cannabis. 

Of _*course*_ I have tried other methods... what you're looking in this thread is the end of about 10 years of R&D, otherwise known as T&E (trial & error).

My first op was a drip in pellets, there was an aero setup for a while, did NFT for a spell- but all my ops have been rotating harvest SoG, with multiple independent watering systems. I settled on a flood system for watering due to the dead-nuts-reliability. I've settled on SoG in floods for ease of operation, high reliability and low fiddliness factor.

A lot of space and work, you say- but compared to _*what?*_ 

Simple as this, SoG is _*the *_most productive per sq ft, lowest labour input indoor growing method you can use for cannabis. If that sounds like a big claim, it is- and it's accurate. SoG gives you ONLY top colas- the most potent, heaviest, most dense and easiest to manicure buds you can get from a cannabis plant.


----------



## Dubbuh (Jan 27, 2008)

Al. B Fuct you are the man.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 27, 2008)

ClumsyNinja said:


> SoG seems to be the way to fly considering cost/time and output (specifically for a one man show).


SoG is also the very best exploitation of indoor-lighted floorspace. Remember, my _*entire*_ op fits in an 8' x 9' footprint and is presently making about 23oz every 2 wks with a pair of 1000s. You will be very hard pressed to find a non-SoG method which makes that kind of buddage per sq ft. If you DO find it, let me know, OK? 



ClumsyNinja said:


> Thanks for all the great info and very informative thread - I'll be following your model and post a journal or such once it's in action.
> 
> Much appreciation Al B!





Dubbuh said:


> Al. B Fuct you are the man.



Thanks, folks. 

However, I'm not in any way gifted nor even an especially talented plant grower. No magic happens in my op. Absolutely anyone should be able to replicate my op or just incorporate some of the main features to improve production. If you do what I do, you should get what I get.


----------



## happygrow (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey, YOU are the shit!!! Thanks for all your R&D and especially your T&E that we may enjoy and benefit!!


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, this all just came to me one night in a dream and I decided it was the best thing that has ever happened to cannabis.
> 
> Of _*course*_ I have tried other methods... what you're looking in this thread is the end of about 10 years of R&D, otherwise known as T&E (trial & error).
> 
> ...


damn you could sell me anything! like that billy mays dude who yells all the time about things being 19.95. man that sounds like a sweet deal, i would like to try it although i have never grown before. i was thinking to try screen of green aeroponically. maybe a sea of screen of green!


----------



## fiona (Jan 28, 2008)

Hey Al, I really love your system! I hope to get a similar one set up in the next little while. I was just wondering what your electricity bill looks like. With close to 3000w going strong, it mustn't be cheap! 
Cheers man.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 28, 2008)

happygrow said:


> Hey, YOU are the shit!!! Thanks for all your R&D and especially your T&E that we may enjoy and benefit!!


No worries... but I gotta tell you, modern slang just isn't as romantic as it used to be. If being "the shit" is a GOOD thing, I sure don't wanna be bad. 



denverm4x said:


> damn you could sell me anything! like that billy mays dude who yells all the time about things being 19.95. man that sounds like a sweet deal, i would like to try it although i have never grown before. i was thinking to try screen of green aeroponically. maybe a sea of screen of green!


Hey, I learned everything I know from late-night TV used car salesmen. 



fiona said:


> Hey Al, I really love your system! I hope to get a similar one set up in the next little while. I was just wondering what your electricity bill looks like. With close to 3000w going strong, it mustn't be cheap!


Thanks, fiona. Your estimate is pretty close.  My op draws 3543 watts with everything running; that includes 2kW of HPS flowering lights which run only 12 hours per day. Yes, it's not an insubstantial expense, but my power bills are not out of line with a place with a pool or a spa- I have a neighbour with a swimming pool whose bills are actually good bit larger than mine. 

To cut my total power cost, I have concentrated on improving efficiency of other electricity use around here; have replaced all incandescent lighting (except those which need dimmers) with CFLs and also installed solar water heat. The solar water heating cut ~$250 per quarter off my bill. My bill is now actually slightly _*less *_than it was before switching on the op. I can only conclude that the power cost of my op is less than $250 per 3 mos. A total bargain when you consider that's _*well *_under the cost of buying a single oz, which I'd pretty easily smoke in a week.


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> To cut my total power cost, I have concentrated on improving efficiency of other electricity use around here; have replaced all incandescent lighting (except those which need dimmers) with CFLs and also installed solar water heat. The solar water heating cut ~$250 per quarter off my bill. My bill is now actually slightly _*less *_than it was before switching on the op. I can only conclude that the power cost of my op is less than $250 per 3 mos. A total bargain when you consider that's _*well *_under the cost of buying a single oz, which I'd pretty easily smoke in a week.


damn, so you are saying you are paying less than before all this? somewhat confusing wording, how much do you pay a month?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 28, 2008)

Sorry for the confusion. I indended to convey that while the grow op certainly increased the power bill, I was able to more than offset that increase by installing solar water heat and CFL household lighting. 

My actual power bill total is classified info, sorry. 

You can work out what you will pay by multiplying the kilowatt-hour (kWh) rate on your power bill by the power consumption of your gear; should be about 12-15c/kWh. Check your bill for your rate.

A 1000W (1kW) load running for 1 hour is 1 kWh, as is a 500W (0.5kW) load running for two hours, see?


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sorry for the confusion. I indended to convey that while the grow op certainly increased the power bill, I was able to more than offset that increase by installing solar water heat and CFL household lighting.
> 
> My actual power bill total is classified info, sorry.
> 
> ...


haha i guess the next question would be what kind/model of solar did you get? i know those can be expensive as hell, more of an investment. sorry to pry, just interesting good to know stuff


----------



## fiona (Jan 29, 2008)

I doubt I could get away with that level of energy usage in an apartment. I wonder what kind of yield, or surface coverage I could expect with one 1000 watter and a light mover?


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 29, 2008)

fiona said:


> I doubt I could get away with that level of energy usage in an apartment. I wonder what kind of yield, or surface coverage I could expect with one 1000 watter and a light mover?


I am not sure but I do not think anyone should be trying a grow op in an apartment. Bad news from what I have heard. Maybe like one or two stashed plants...


----------



## fiona (Jan 29, 2008)

You think it's easy to bet busted, is that why?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 29, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> haha i guess the next question would be what kind/model of solar did you get?


It is a Fuct Engineering Model 1 Solarsucker, designed and built by _moi._


----------



## Blunted1 (Jan 29, 2008)

FUCT,
Getting a lot of good pointers from you. I was curious about when you start to train the plants under the screen. How long in veg? 

Thanks!


----------



## LoudBlunts (Jan 29, 2008)

LOL!!!!! 

you obviously aint getting that many good pointers from him, especially if you asking about a screen.

i dont even think al b fuct even mentioned a screen thru out this whole thread...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 29, 2008)

fiona said:


> I doubt I could get away with that level of energy usage in an apartment. I wonder what kind of yield, or surface coverage I could expect with one 1000 watter and a light mover?


50W/sq ft of HPS is a good rule of thumb. A 1000 HPS will thus cover 20 sq ft. 4'x5' is a practical size with a good batwing reflector. 

I'm not overfond of light movers; in the end it is all down to the amount of light energy put down per sf. If the light only spends 50% of its time over a given spot, it is putting down 50% of the energy it would if not moving. You can reasonably expect 50% of the yield than if the light were stationary. All light movers do is even out growth over an area really too large for a particular lamp. Movers do prevent 'pyramiding' or prolific growth near the light with progressively reducing vigor as distance increases. Growth will be even with a mover, but more sparse and buds less dense across all plants than if the lamp is used over fewer plants in a smaller area. The overall yield will be roughly similar. However, I consider bud density very important to final quality- this is sacrificed to some degree with movers.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 29, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> I am not sure but I do not think anyone should be trying a grow op in an apartment. Bad news from what I have heard. Maybe like one or two stashed plants...


I grew in apartments for years. It's a lot harder to do as utter silence and scent control are paramount, but it can be done. A single family house is a lot easier, especially if there's some appreciable distance between you & neighbours. 

I once ran a nice walk-in closet grow, about 30 plants in SoG, but it was hard to ventilate without the ability to cut holes in the ceiling to vent into an attic ('twas a lower floor unit). I removed the closet door and put in a sheet of plywood with input and output vent grilles. The room it was attached to had forced air heating and cooling, providing fresh CO2 to that room to be cycled into the grow. It still suffered from excessive humidity problems from time to time as it was possible for the exhaust air to be cycled directly back into the op, but it worked reasonably well.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 29, 2008)

Blunted1 said:


> FUCT,
> Getting a lot of good pointers from you. I was curious about when you start to train the plants under the screen. How long in veg?
> 
> Thanks!


What screen? What veg?

You sure you intended to reply to this thread? 

This is a SoG not a ScrOG. No screen and zero veg time- clones go straight in to flower as soon as they have a good spray of roots.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 29, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> LOL!!!!!
> 
> you obviously aint getting that many good pointers from him, especially if you asking about a screen.
> 
> i dont even think al b fuct even mentioned a screen thru out this whole thread...


I have, but not in relation to what I'm doing. I have talked about ScrOG in more general terms- and why I don't do it!


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 29, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> I am not sure but I do not think anyone should be trying a grow op in an apartment. Bad news from what I have heard. Maybe like one or two stashed plants...


oh no? 













sorry to intrude al b...

but i just wanted to show some basic apartment growing...


the key is... make sure you can completely take down and hide everything... including plants... within 24 hours notice =]

i've had half a dozen inspections since starting growing not even a year ago... and i'm still around 

al b once i have the moms availible i'm going to be setting up a SOG in hempy buckets... so this thread has been invaluable to me... gracias mi amigo


----------



## Rootex (Jan 29, 2008)

Can't wait to start cloning my Widow. This is gonna be great.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 30, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> the key is... make sure you can completely take down and hide everything... including plants... within 24 hours notice =]


'Twas about 1993-4... I built a very large, wardrobe-sized lockable grow box from plywood, framed in 2x2 with screws & glue, stuck it in a walk-in closet. It was disguised by cutting up some old footlockers and putting the panels on the growbox to make it look like a stack of... well, old footlockers.  Inspectors were entitled to look in my closet but not in my "storage containers." Never had them look in the closet but never took the risk of moving plants out of the apt prior to an inspection, either. Much scarier, IMNSFHO. 

Still massively preferable to have a single-family house and some distance cushion between you & the neighbours.


----------



## denverm4x (Jan 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 'Twas about 1993-4... I built a very large, wardrobe-sized lockable grow box from plywood, framed in 2x2 with screws & glue, stuck it in a walk-in closet. It was disguised by cutting up some old footlockers and putting the panels on the growbox to make it look like a stack of... well, old footlockers.  Inspectors were entitled to look in my closet but not in my "storage containers." Never had them look in the closet but never took the risk of moving plants out of the apt prior to an inspection, either. Much scarier, IMNSFHO.
> 
> Still massively preferable to have a single-family house and some distance cushion between you & the neighbours.


so you have been doing this for a long time... you ever get popped or come close to it?


----------



## GoodFriend (Jan 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 'Twas about 1993-4... I built a very large, wardrobe-sized lockable grow box from plywood, framed in 2x2 with screws & glue, stuck it in a walk-in closet. It was disguised by cutting up some old footlockers and putting the panels on the growbox to make it look like a stack of... well, old footlockers.  Inspectors were entitled to look in my closet but not in my "storage containers." Never had them look in the closet but never took the risk of moving plants out of the apt prior to an inspection, either. Much scarier, IMNSFHO.
> 
> Still massively preferable to have a single-family house and some distance cushion between you & the neighbours.


one time i moved plants outta here....
that was an experience... shoved them into rubbermaid storage containers, into the trunk of a car, and over to another growing friends house... got them back later that week =]

i panicked though... thought, shit, i need to get these things outta here...

since then they have just been covered by boxes and i threw shit over them... or put the sideways in my dresser drawers... haha


its as easy as tearing down stapled up panda plastic, and having enough emtpy storage containers around the place to fit a whole grow into... haha...

now that i'm only doing vegging, it makes that part of the issue a lot easier... 

i won't be flowering again until i get my own house..
... and a proper carbon filter =]


----------



## hybrid (Jan 30, 2008)

wow............quite the informative thread. Im impressed.

I think what Cali Gurl was asking though was how to go about building your own hydro setup from non KIT parts.

Like what kind of pumps, timers and lines and etc etc.

Hell Im even half interested. My biggest hangup on that type of set up is that I know for a fact Id have to mail order in all the rockwool flec to use all the time.

I literally live 2 weeks from anywhere when it comes to technology. 

Oh and BTW........slightly off topic but does anyone have a link to DWC that is good for instructions?

I cant seem to get my head around the fact that you can submerge the root mass in the water/nute solution and not drown your plant.


----------



## fiona (Jan 30, 2008)

Who are all these "inspectors" that you all are speaking of? Are you saying that based on electricity consumption you had investigators round the apartment? Or are you referring to landlords doing maintenance and what not in the place? Please help, you all are scaring me!


----------



## bigal10 (Jan 31, 2008)

Man I love the set up. This is probably the best thread seen so far. I am about to attempt my first major grow and going to try and mirror your style. Do you think setting up my first major grow would would be ok using your style or starting out with easier like soil would be a better idea. Id rather set something up, maintain it properly, and get fresh bud every two weeks.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 31, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> so you have been doing this for a long time... you ever get popped or come close to it?


Never, not once- and it's not down to luck. Good security requires reviewing all processes not just once but periodically. 



lumberjack_ian said:


> one time i moved plants outta here....
> that was an experience... shoved them into rubbermaid storage containers, into the trunk of a car, and over to another growing friends house... got them back later that week =]


eek. Lotsa opportunities for badness.



hybrid said:


> wow............quite the informative thread. Im impressed.
> 
> I think what Cali Gurl was asking though was how to go about building your own hydro setup from non KIT parts.
> 
> Like what kind of pumps, timers and lines and etc etc. Hell Im even half interested.


Air and water pumps are plain old aquarium types, get 'em at pet shops, hardware stores, some bigger discount & variety stores. Timers are also plain old sorts available at any hardware store. I use HD mechanical timers rated for heaters and aircon units with the lights. The downside to mechanical timers is that they usually only allow a minimum 15 min 'on' time. I use digital timers for water pumps as they can be set for any time period. My water pumps only run for about 3-4 mins per cycle. Lines are just pieces of cut garden hose. Nothing special here; that's why I haven't written anything about it. 



> My biggest hangup on that type of set up is that I know for a fact Id have to mail order in all the rockwool flec to use all the time.
> 
> I literally live 2 weeks from anywhere when it comes to technology.


You could alternatively use perlite or similar but you'd need to put a knee-hi stocking over the pot.



> Oh and BTW........slightly off topic but does anyone have a link to DWC that is good for instructions?
> 
> I cant seem to get my head around the fact that you can submerge the root mass in the water/nute solution and not drown your plant.


As long as there's a feed from an air pump constantly pushing air through a stone or bubble curtain, that's all the roots need. DWC grows should have redundant air pumps. Roots will drown in just a few hours if a pump fails. 



fiona said:


> Who are all these "inspectors" that you all are speaking of? Are you saying that based on electricity consumption you had investigators round the apartment? Or are you referring to landlords doing maintenance and what not in the place? Please help, you all are scaring me!


Landlords... periodic property inspections... etc. 



bigal10 said:


> Man I love the set up. This is probably the best thread seen so far. I am about to attempt my first major grow and going to try and mirror your style. Do you think setting up my first major grow would would be ok using your style or starting out with easier like soil would be a better idea. Id rather set something up, maintain it properly, and get fresh bud every two weeks.


Thanks for the compliment. 

I would not use soil in a SoG op. Messy, heavy, hard to dispose of, significant productivity penalty as opposed to even the most basic flood hydro op. I suppose you could get started in soil, but when you get it really running, you'll then be on the learning curve again when you start running it in hydro... which ain't too sharp if you can just keep some basic parameters right. Remember, SoG depends on growing a larger number of smaller plants; you tend to have a lot of pots of media or soil to dispose of when harvesting is done.


----------



## bigal10 (Jan 31, 2008)

You may not want to answer, but can you elaborate on your response to security. I know not telling anyone about the op is probably the most important, and maybe video cameras. I guess what Im saying is I want to do this the safest way possible. I live in Cali and I dont have any kids or wife etc etc. So what five things do you recommend are the most important within security perameters. The only thing that scares me is the amount of electricity being used (generator maybe but expensive). What five things do you recommend.


----------



## bigal10 (Feb 1, 2008)

i dont know if you talked about this but do you use a lot of CO2 for your plants and if so do you run the tanks constantly??


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 1, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> ISo what five things do you recommend are the most important within security perameters. The only thing that scares me is the amount of electricity being used (generator maybe but expensive). What five things do you recommend.


1. *Stealth!* Don't make it easy for anyone to accidentally find your op. Your op should make no noise audible where a passerby (esp meter readers) may hear it. Light leaks are a dead giveaway, but so are windows covered in black plastic. Use some sense and make it look natural. You must control scents if you live anywhere near civilisation. Centrif blowers pushing into carbon filters and UV ionisers are the go. Scent masking agents are giveaways if used inappropriately. If your grow is in a garage, an emergency scent mask might be paint thinner instead of mothballs. Use the mothballs to hide a closet grow. Carbon filters & ionisers actually destroy the scent and are far preferred, though carbon filters require periodic renewal of the activated carbon.

2. *Information security*: You know the old saying, three can keep a secret if two are dead. Don't smoke stogies when everyone else is dry. Pretend your op isn't there- talk about it here, nowhere else- and stay anonymous. Don't make direct email contact with people from cannabis boards, this one included. Don't EVER mail order seeds to the grow address... and never, _*ever*_ use your own name with the seedbank. Pay cash at the hydro shop. Leave no paper trails. Dispose of grow op wastes smartly. Rootballs and old media can be bagged and go in common rubbish collection- remove any leaf material from the media. Leaf trimmings should be composted- evidence is gone in a week and you don't 'perfume' your rubbish bins. Lots of busts happen when leaf waste is disposed of in common rubbish. If you can't compost, dry your leaf waste, possibly with warm grow room exhaust air, crush it up to make it less identifiable, sprinkle it on lawns or gardens, water it in with the hose. Gone. 

3. *Social engineering*: Be a normal neighbour. Not noisy, not needlessly nice- just keep a quiet, ordinary place. No 5 minute visitors, especially not late at night.

4. *Electrical safety*: Don't draw more than 80% of the rating of a circuit, i.e. no more than 16A continuous load on a 20A ckt bkr. If you need more current than the nearest ckt will carry, pull in a new run of cable and install another breaker in the breaker box, or tie into an existing underused ckt bkr. Keep all electrics off the floor; build a power panel to keep things high and dry. 

5. *Prevent water damage*: If your op does not have a durable, concrete or tiled floor (ideally with a floor drain), protect the floors in the event a nute tank splits or something leaks. Cover the floor with heavy plastic and make it into a reservoir with a frame of 2x6 timbers around the perimeter. Water spewing out of an op (like from under a wall bottm where it meets the slab/foundation) has attracted neighbours' attention in many cases. The nosy nellies will want to help save your house from that leaky pipe while you happen to be away... 



bigal10 said:


> i dont know if you talked about this but do you use a lot of CO2 for your plants and if so do you run the tanks constantly??


I don't use CO2 right now. May someday but I'd not only need the tanks & metering gear, I'd need aircon. Can't rely on airflow thru the op for cooling when you're trying to keep expensive bottled gas in there. It's good for about 20-25% increase in yield and higher air temperature tolerance, to about 32C/90F.


----------



## bigal10 (Feb 1, 2008)

wow, so I dont have to go out and buy a CO2 tank. I was on my way till you posted this. Jorger Cervantes says CO2 tanks are a must. Can you elaborate on what else I should use to maximize my growth. Also, you posted a link to the specific lights system you use. could I find the same system at a local hydro store or do I have to mail out for it. I want to just pay cash.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 2, 2008)

Cervantes says CO2 is a 'must'? Bit of a stretch. 

Maximising growth mainly entails minimising setbacks. Don't overwater nor overfertilise, keep your room at 24-26C @ 30-50% RH and you'll do very well. 

The Adjust-A-Wings batwing shades are made in Australia but sold worldwide. Check your local hydro shop.


----------



## fiona (Feb 2, 2008)

I have a tiny 10L reservoir and was wondering if I only needed to test the pH when I changed the water or more often?


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 2, 2008)

you said Don't draw more than 80% of the rating of a circuit, i.e. no more than 16A continuous load on a 20A ckt bkr. I am sorry I am a bit out of physics class, is there any math you can do to determine the amperes you are or would be using?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 2, 2008)

fiona said:


> I have a tiny 10L reservoir and was wondering if I only needed to test the pH when I changed the water or more often?


Test daily until you establish the pattern of pH changes between topping up the tank. I don't know what sort of watering system you have, how many plants nor the media you are using, but as a general rule, bigger nute tanks tend to keep their nute concentration and pH more stable between top-ups than smaller ones. If you want to run a tank for 2 weeks, about 5 litres of reservoir capacity per plant will keep things fairly steady, though as plants get larger and room temps are higher, you may find that you have to top up once or twice in a 2 week life of a tank of sauce to keep the tank above 60% water level. 

Tapwater is usually about 7.1-8 depending upon your local municipality's treatment, source water mineral content and some other factors. Of course, topping your 5.5-5.8 nutes with tapwater will raise the pH of the tank, requiring you add a bit of pH Down sauce (usually phosphoric acid based) to correct it down. Every time you top up, you'll need to check pH and correct if needed.


----------



## daddychrisg (Feb 2, 2008)

*
Tapwater is usually about 7.1-8 depending upon your local municipality's treatment, source water mineral content and some other factors. Of course, topping your 5.5-5.8 nutes with tapwater will raise the pH of the tank, requiring you add a bit of pH Down sauce (usually phosphoric acid based) to correct it down. Every time you top up, you'll need to check pH and correct if needed.

*_You amaze me with your resiliency to redundancy..._


----------



## Sublime757 (Feb 2, 2008)

I swear I've seen this grow before


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 2, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> you said Don't draw more than 80% of the rating of a circuit, i.e. no more than 16A continuous load on a 20A ckt bkr. I am sorry I am a bit out of physics class, is there any math you can do to determine the amperes you are or would be using?


Yep, you need to know a bit about Ohm's Law. Here's a calculator to help work things out. 

Most devices will be marked with the amount of current they draw, in amperes. Sometimes they are only marked with the operating voltage and power draw in watts. If you know the operating voltage and the power draw in watts, you can calculate the current draw in amps. Watts = Volts * Amps; thus Amps = Watts/Volts. If your device runs on 240V and draws 10A, it will be using 2400W. If your 240V device draws 200W, it will be drawing .833A.

Simply add up all the amperage figures from the label on each device connected to your circuit to determine the total current draw in amps.

You'll know your maximum continuous draw by multiplying the rating of the ckt bkr for the ckt running your op by 0.8, i.e. a 15A bkr should carry no more than 12A continuous load. 

HID lighting and electric motors require more current to start than they draw while running. Refer to the literature or labelling for your device for start currents. Small electric motors as found in vent/circ fans and small aquarium water pumps do have higher than operating-level start currents but they're small enough to be inconsequential in our application. Only the start currents from HID lighting is normally large enough to consider when planning your wiring. It is wise to use individual timers to start multiple HID light systems. Time them to start about 2-3 mins apart to reduce load on your ckt.

Your bkr should be able to carry its rating plus about 5-10% for a few seconds to cope with transient startup loads, but if you hit a 15A bkr with a 15.5A load for more than a few seconds, it should trip.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 2, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> _You amaze me with your resiliency to redundancy..._


Pardon? Not sure what you mean.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 2, 2008)

Sublime757 said:


> I swear I've seen this grow before


You almost certainly have if you used Overgrow.com prior to 2005 or have been to Grasscity and OSA. I tend to spread the love, baby.


----------



## Sublime757 (Feb 2, 2008)

OG Refugee myself. I had been a member since '03-'03 I think it was.


----------



## daddychrisg (Feb 2, 2008)

*Pardon? Not sure what you mean.

*_I have been active on this site for about 6 months now, and I have seen you respond to the same question in different formats numerous times since I started reading your posts. I am astonished that you can keep replying to people "in need" with patiences and grace..Thanks for what you do...._


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 2, 2008)

heh, dcg- if I've answered the same query several times, it just goes to show you that there's not really all that much to this dope growing gig.


----------



## fiona (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks for your help Al. I can't wait to get my seeds in the mail and start this thing right. I'm like a sponge at the moment soaking up all I can!


----------



## fiona (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm also thinking ahead to phase II, flowering. I was thinking I would get a 600watt aircooled lamp. Since the rule of thumb is 50watts/sq ft that would mean a grow area of 12ft squared. I was also thinking of buying some version of the Hydrohut, which only comes 3x3 and 4x4. So is it better to go more or less given the choice? I would just go 1000watt but living where I do, 600watt would be less conspicuous. Also, using a SOG grow method how many plants could I realistically expect to grow in a 3x3 or 4x4 environment?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 3, 2008)

So, a 4'x4' Hydrohut is about $289... that's a hell of a lot of money for a grow tent. Nothing you can't make yourself out of pandafilm with a frame of 2"x2" timber or 1"x1" square aluminum tube with Qubelok connectors (lotsa hdwe stores have qubeloks) for an AWFUL lot less dough. 

I'd be really surprised if you could not duplicate a 4x4 Hydrohut with timber framing for under $50, if you can wield a saw, a staple tacker and a screwdriver.


----------



## crazy-mental (Feb 3, 2008)

just use an old closet, i have 3 and they work great.


----------



## crazy-mental (Feb 3, 2008)

View attachment 64692
here are a pic of my grow closet,with fans and a light,
whole ste up for closet fans and lights 600hps.
closet free
light £100
fans £15.
if your just starting out, its cheaper,and plus if you buy all the grow tents, ect. you might find you have to stop growing or dont think its for you.
try the cheaper way first.



































310


----------



## LoganSmith (Feb 3, 2008)

Hey Al B. Fuct,
Whats going on? You seem to be a busy person and with that said I would like to thank you for you time and effort in this thread and the other ones that you have put your time into. 

I have been reading your threads for awhile now and I'm tring to duplicate your over 10 year adventure (yield every two weeks). 
Thanks for R&D
So with that said this is what I'm dealing with. I have an area that is 6Lx3wx5.5h that is lined with panda film. I have a 600w dig hps/mh system, a 80cfm and 465cfm exhaust fan. I also have a 6' light mover.
The area above is only the flowering area, I have another area for cloning and vegg. the same size.

I'm in soil at the moment but would like to get into the floc or the other medium that you were talking about, to do a flood and drain system. Do you like the floc better? I have looked on line and in the local hydro stores but I can't find it. I would like to buy it in bulk to save some money. 

I would also like to make the flood and drain tables but can't find the flood/drain adapters.

I want to have four stations (one station every two wks) in each stations I would like to have 6 1 gallon contains. 

What would you recomend for a heavy yielding stain but doesn't lose any ? Right now I have Grape Ape. 

Thanks for your input.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 3, 2008)

crazy-mental said:


> just use an old closet, i have 3 and they work great.


Yep, that'll do. 

However, if you use a particularly cheap old wardrobe, one made from MDF/particleboard, make sure you keep humidity down and protect the floor from spills. MDF goes back to being sawdust pretty readily when wet. Line the interior of the wardrobe with pandafilm. Fill any gaps and glue pandafilm where needed with silicone sealant.


----------



## fiona (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks for the advice everyone...duly noted. Think big. Start small.


----------



## peadrojones (Feb 3, 2008)

nice operation idea how long will it take to start producing every 2 weeks and get in the cycle


----------



## LoganSmith (Feb 3, 2008)

two months (8 wks)


----------



## mokety (Feb 3, 2008)

i Love this thread answer a lot question of mine. Thanks guys for posting it. Now i fell more confident to start SoG this is my second batch and still learning from them...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 3, 2008)

peadrojones said:


> nice operation idea how long will it take to start producing every 2 weeks and get in the cycle


Well, if you have to start the whole thing from point zero, a packet of beans... 

* 3-5 days to sprout seeds
* 6-8 weeks under veg lighting to raise seedlings to sexual maturity (preflowers forming at nodes)- cut back growing tips a few times to force plants to branch out, so to provide a quantity of stems for cuttings
* About 1 week to sex plants- either shade one branch for 12h/day for about a week or take a cutting from each mum, wait 7-10 days for cuts to root, about a week under 12/12 to sex them

(if starting from known female mums, the cycle begins here)

* Take first batch of cuttings from the now known to be female mothers, wait 7-10 days for roots to develop; profuse root formation occurs by approx day 14 from cutting; fits the 'every-2-weeks' cutting & harvest schedule rather nicely
* First batch of rooted clones goes in to flower; they'll be ready to harvest in 8 weeks 
* In about 2 weeks, mother plants will have regrown, ready for another batch of cuttings. Take second batch of cuttings.
* In ~14 days, the second batch of cuttings will have profuse roots and can go into flower. They will be ready to harvest in 8 weeks. 
* In about 2 weeks, mother plants will have regrown, ready for another batch of cuttings. Take third batch of cuttings.
* In ~14 days, the third batch of cuttings will have profuse roots and can go into flower. They will be ready to harvest in 8 weeks. 
* In about 2 weeks, mother plants will have regrown, ready for another batch of cuttings. Take fourth batch of cuttings.
* In ~14 days, the fourth batch of cuttings will have profuse roots and can go into flower. They will be ready to harvest in 8 weeks. 
* All flowering trays are now full and the cycles repeat. On introduction of the 5th batch into the flowering area 14 days later, the 1st batch is mature and ready to harvest. Exery 2 weeks, a batch goes in and a batch is harvested.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Feb 3, 2008)

THanx again Al, seems everyone misses those first three months. Five months from seed to weed, thats what I say. VV


----------



## Sublime757 (Feb 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, if you have to start the whole thing from point zero, a packet of beans...
> 
> * 3-5 days to sprout seeds
> * 6-8 weeks under veg lighting to raise seedlings to sexual maturity (preflowers forming at nodes)- cut back growing tips a few times to force plants to branch out, so to provide a quantity of stems for cuttings
> ...


 
I learned the same technique from an old BoG post. Yet I mentioned it somewhere on here and everyone said I was retarded...


----------



## potroast (Feb 4, 2008)

What I tell people is that the cycle is started with the taking of cuttings. So as long as you keep that on schedule, then everything else will fall into place.

Thanks for this Al. I'm glad you're on our side. 


HTH


----------



## daddychrisg (Feb 4, 2008)

You are the man Al....that was a real response...Either you were baked or board....LOL


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 4, 2008)

> either shade one branch for 12h/day for about a week





Sublime757 said:


> I learned the same technique from an old BoG post. Yet I mentioned it somewhere on here and everyone said I was retarded...


 It's functionally difficult to shade a single branch effectively without hurting the branch. I found a tube made from a bit of rolled-up and stapled weedcloth (woven polypropylene fabric, moisture permeable, used under mulch or gravel in gardens) works pretty well. Lets moisture through so the branch doesn't get trashed from excess humidity, blocks enough light to make the sex reveal.



potroast said:


> What I tell people is that the cycle is started with the taking of cuttings. So as long as you keep that on schedule, then everything else will fall into place.


Yep, I wrote the initial piece in this thread presuming one already had mother plants established. Getting mums going is a bit time consuming; if you are lucky enough to be able to buy clones i.e. from a med pot place, you save a lot of time. Once the pipeline is loaded, the twice monthly output is brilliant. 


potroast said:


> Thanks for this Al. I'm glad you're on our side.


ha ha! I guess you haven't worked out that I'm in _*really*_ in league with the aliens. 

Torchwood will be coming after me any minute now... 



daddychrisg said:


> You are the man Al....that was a real response...Either you were baked or board....LOL


Nah, I just know the rotating SoG system pretty well- and I hunt-n-peck at pretty close to 90wpm.


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 4, 2008)

yea dude, thanks for all the good advice. you help and patience is much appreciated!


----------



## butterflykisses (Feb 4, 2008)

hey al b do you or have u ever used canna boost and if so did it help? also why is it so expensive? it seems to just be some type of sugar. one litre is 105usd


----------



## LoganSmith (Feb 4, 2008)

Hey Al, can you give me little help?

Thax


----------



## daddychrisg (Feb 5, 2008)

*Hey Al, can you give me little help?

Thax

*_Take a number Logan.....now serving 420.._


----------



## LoganSmith (Feb 5, 2008)

hahaahhah, nice one.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> yea dude, thanks for all the good advice. you help and patience is much appreciated!


Thanks. 



butterflykisses said:


> hey al b do you or have u ever used canna boost and if so did it help? also why is it so expensive? it seems to just be some type of sugar. one litre is 105usd


I've not used it. I do use Canna's PK1314 for 1 week at 0.5ml/litre in week 3 of flowering only. 

I have used Canna's stuff for many years with high reliability. If, however, Boost is primarily sugar based, I'd be doubtful. Knowing Canna, I suspect there's more to it than just sugars, but I just don't know. Their website kinda sucks too- doesn't tell you much. I've found precious little evidence for sugars (ie molasses) being able to pass the root barrier. 

On the reputation of their other products, I might give it a go, but at $105 per bottle, it better make the plants jump up & kiss my arse. I'd be a lot more tempted to try it if Canna gave a general idea of what is in the stuff. 

I really have a deep dislike for "magic sauces," those hugely expensive bottles of mystery goo whose hawkers vaguely claim to turn your molehills into mountains. Sellers of magic sauces can hit me with the science- or piss off. There's too many abject frauds out there, including those sauces claiming to contain things of dubious use to cannabis plants like molasses, beeswax, etc etc. It really takes no more than nutrient and H2O2 to run an op very well, thank you. 



LoganSmith said:


> Hey Al, can you give me little help?


I give most folks little help, you're no different.   

I don't mind discussing general concepts but I'd like to avoid designing other folks' ops from top to bottom or hand-holding them through a grow. It's just too taxing on my limited time. It's why I have PMs disabled. Remember, I'm a slacker and I'm running a very productive op. There's enough info on room construction and general theory of growing cannabis all over this board to get anyone through who can take the time to read the stuff. In terms of troubleshooting, there's folks on here who are much better at diagnosing stuff than I am, too. See potroast, he knows everything (please don't kill me pottie....  ).


----------



## LoganSmith (Feb 5, 2008)

?????????????????????????


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2008)

LS, you asked:



> Hey Al, can you give me little help?


...when you probably intended to say:



> Hey Al, can you give me *A* little help?


The two sentences have _*markedly*_ different meanings, don't they?  

You simply gave me a fine oppty to be a bit of a smartarse.  Thanks for the free kick.


----------



## crazy-mental (Feb 5, 2008)

i got some pk13/14 the man in the hydro shop said it good stuff.
and to use in the last weeks before you start to flush.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2008)

It is good stuff, but you do have to use it by the label directions. PK1314 gets used in flowering week 3, for 1 week only, not at the end of flowering.


----------



## crazy-mental (Feb 5, 2008)

ive got the bottle here.
it says
. add pk13/14 3 weeks before harvesting,to a full nutrition tank in the following.
suppose it depends on what strain you have, as to when you start to give, some strains take longer than others.
so if a plant took 8 week, you would start to give at week 5.


----------



## crazy-mental (Feb 5, 2008)

some strains take 6 weeks so you would also be right.


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 5, 2008)

al b fuct, have u posted yet what your yield is every 2 weeks dry?
theirs to much pages to go back & find it.
thanks


----------



## Sublime757 (Feb 5, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> al b fuct, have u posted yet what your yield is every 2 weeks dry?
> theirs to much pages to go back & find it.
> thanks


13-16oz I beilieve he posted.


----------



## Scotland (Feb 5, 2008)

Hi Al, Still trying to work out the best way to set up the DWC Sog set up that I am putting together. I am keen to copy your 'clonebox' idea and would look at keeping the ambient temperature at a constant 26.5C with the 30C heat mat. What I am interested in knowing is what temperature the mothers should be kept in.

My plan is to house the Clones and Mothers in the same area above the main flowering area and it would be much easier if they could share a 'micro-atmosphere'. Is this possible or would the compromise be detrimental to both sets of plants? Both sets would be lit by different lights (Floro's and 250HPS) but would not be divided.

Information that I have put together....

*Clones*

Humidity: ?
Temperature: 26.5C

*Mothers:*

Humidity: ?
Temperature: ?

*Flowering:*

Humidity: 40C - 50C
Temperature: 25C

Are these reasonable targets or have I misunderstood something?

Thanks again!


----------



## LoganSmith (Feb 5, 2008)

I wasn't asking you do construct my grow op, I was just looking to see what you thought about the size of my area vs. the items that I have. And if I needed anything else. 

The only real questions I asked were- 
1. Do you like the floc better then the fytocell? Pros vs Cons. 
2. Where to buy in bulk if you know? 
3. What strain would you recommend that gives a heavy yield and good high.

Thats all


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2008)

crazy-mental said:


> ive got the bottle here.
> it says
> . add pk13/14 3 weeks before harvesting


Well Al B Fu... err, darned.  

That's exactly what it says. I must have misread it or read it once and promptly got it wrong. 

Thanks for chasing that down. I'll be dosing tank 3 from now on instead of tank 2.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> al b fuct, have u posted yet what your yield is every 2 weeks dry?
> theirs to much pages to go back & find it.
> thanks


page 1 isn't hard to find.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2008)

Scotland said:


> What I am interested in knowing is what temperature the mothers should be kept in.


24-26C



> My plan is to house the Clones and Mothers in the same area above the main flowering area and it would be much easier if they could share a 'micro-atmosphere'. Is this possible or would the compromise be detrimental to both sets of plants? Both sets would be lit by different lights (Floro's and 250HPS) but would not be divided.


Clones don't want as much air flow & circulation as as the mums. You'll have a hard time keeping the clones' cubes at the right temp if there's a circ fan blowing on them. That's why I have a separate clonebox and mother plant area. 



> Information that I have put together....
> 
> *Clones*
> 
> ...


my notes in red.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2008)

LoganSmith said:


> I wasn't asking you do construct my grow op


I know you didn't- I was just making a general comment. 



> I was just looking to see what you thought about the size of my area vs. the items that I have. And if I needed anything else.


Sorry, I missed your post. Every once in a while I get a flood of posts in the thread and they get past me. Fewer get past me now that I'm not getting 20 PMs a day, tho. 

Not sure what you're doing with your 80 & 465CFM blowers. Is the 80 used as an intake?



> The only real questions I asked were-
> 1. Do you like the floc better then the fytocell? Pros vs Cons.
> 2. Where to buy in bulk if you know?
> 3. What strain would you recommend that gives a heavy yield and good high.


Floc holds too much water but pots filled only with fytocell have a tendency to float. Fytocell holds a lot more air than floc and roots seem to weave all the way through the stuff, where floc tends to have roots develop around the outside of the mass of medium. Fytocell is a crumbled foam and escapes the pot drain holes, as well. I tried putting a knee-hi stocking over the pots- that stopped the crumbs getting out but didn't stop the pots floating. I have taken to tightly packing about 25-50mm of floc in the bottom of each pot. This stops the crumbs from escaping and the weight of the water in the floc keeps the pots from floating. 

Fytocell is a fairly new product- you may have to ask your local hydro shop to order some in or search for it on online shops. 

Any strain will work in SoG but predominantly indica types tend to yield more weight. I've used Sweet Tooth #4 (Spice of Life Seeds) for several years now, quite happy with it.


----------



## butterflykisses (Feb 5, 2008)

whats comprable to sweet tooth#4? cant get that one in the americas


----------



## gvega187 (Feb 5, 2008)

yeah, I don't know if you have talked about this before, but u have any other favorites fuct? strains and or banks?


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> page 1 isn't hard to find.


hahaha


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 6, 2008)

butterflykisses said:


> whats comprable to sweet tooth#4? cant get that one in the americas





gvega187 said:


> yeah, I don't know if you have talked about this before, but u have any other favorites fuct? strains and or banks?


Just look for strains labelled as being indica dominant. I've also grown LUI, Skunk #1 and several other indica dom strains, but ST4 has some useful advantages, particularly with mould resistance, while still making massive buddage. 

I haven't bought seeds in more than 7 years, so I just can't offer any useful advice on sellers and seedbanks, sorry.


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 7, 2008)

fuct, i may have asked this already but have you tried Scrog? seems like you would be very good at it


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 7, 2008)

ScrOG is too fiddly and requires veg time on the plants to be flowered. SoG makes more bud with less fooling around in less time.


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 7, 2008)

your ideas intrigue me... i wish to subscribe to your newsletter


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 8, 2008)

huh? what newsletter?


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 8, 2008)

question al b. fuct, we are thinking doing a very simular setup. but maybe going with 3by4 tables instead of 4by4.
now i believe ua re using a 1000w over each table right? cause we are worried abotu that manyy watts, ect..

cause we were thinking getting 2 1000w lights at first. then decided on 3 600w lights.
why 3 smaller lights, cause if we put all the trays in a row touching 1 another 3 light will cover the 12 ft span better, or are we wrong? what do u think?


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> huh? what newsletter?


just a simpson's reference


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 9, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> question al b. fuct, we are thinking doing a very simular setup. but maybe going with 3by4 tables instead of 4by4.


When I wrote the initial post in this thread, I thought my trays were 4x4'. They're not! I'd never measured them. They _*looked*_ like 4'x4'! 

They are actually 820mm^2 or 2.7'^2 (about 2'8"^2).



infamouse21 said:


> i believe ua re using a 1000w over each table right?


I have four trays and 2x 1000 HPS. Each 1000 lights a pair of trays.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 9, 2008)

Cooltubes sorted. Mostly.  The stuff is up but duct taped. I need to go buy some big honkin' hoseclamps to suit all the 150mm connections. Works, tho, for now. 

Testing in mockup on the garage floor with 21C ambient intake air indicated that exhaust temp from the first lamp is 28.8C, a 7.7C rise. This is an optimal figure, with only one lamp in line and no bends. I expect more rise in practise when installed. Some bends and squishing of the duct are necessary to make it fit. 







If 29C air is then series fed into another cooltube, the exhaust air temp is about 34C. 







The tube sockets are ceramic, so at those temps, I didn't feel too bad about running the tubes in much mechanically simpler series instead of parallel, nor be terribly pedantic about orienting the tube socket towards the airflow. Works. 







I did opt for a closed loop, drawing cooling air for the tubes from outside the room's airmass and also dumping outside. Since it's closed, no scent control is needed on the cooltube air circuit. Got an Allvent 150mm axial pushing it for now (in upper left of above pic), but I think there's a 150mm centrif in the future if but for lower noise. The axial will do the job for moving air through this system, but there's lots of bends and obstructions, noticeably reducing flow rate compared to other Allvent 150mm fans I have in use around here. 







Input air during tests after installation was 22C. Output from cooltube 1 was 28C, output from #2 was 34C, rising about 6C for each 1000. I only tested it for about 15 mins as it's sposed to be nighttime in there now, but I'll get a look in later on when everything has properly started as usual and has been running for a couple of hours. I put a remote sensing thermo probe in the output duct to monitor the 'EGT' (Exhaust Gas Temperature for you non-jet jockeys  ), as it were. 

These cooltubes came with a built-in semicircular reflector which would have interfered with the batwings' even distribution pattern. Out came the tin snips and the built-in refs are gone. 

The cooltubes' blower is on a timer, set to start at lights on but keep running for about 30 mins past lights off, assuring the lamps and sockets are dead cold before shutting down. 

Of course, I expect my peak temps to be lower, but I'm especially looking forward to seeing what the RH does. If the main exhaust blower has to run less often because it's not solely responsible for removing heat from the lights, I bet I'm better able to control humidity. My dehumidifier is presently on a timer, set to run on lights-off only, but it may now be useful during lights-on. Without the cooltubes, the nicely dried air is blown right out because the heat from the lights triggers the main exhaust blower. Quite often recently, the intake air has been over 70% RH, and if the exhaust blower is running all the time, that's the RH in the grow room, too. I really want it to stay between 30-50%. 

We'll see how we go!


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 9, 2008)

damn, do you set these things up in your spare time?? i suppose if you are harvesting 2lbs a month you can afford to have a lot of spare time


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 9, 2008)

denverm4x said:


> damn, do you set these things up in your spare time?? i suppose if you are harvesting 2lbs a month you can afford to have a lot of spare time


Took me about 2 hours to remove the sockets from the batwings, drill a couple of holes in each shade, install the cooltubes and route the ducting... even counting a coffee break in the middle of it... not a real big time investment, dood. 

The production figure is up recently, looking more like about 3lb/mo since I fixed a few things. Here's hoping that the cooltubes will increase the output even more. There's no such thing around here as a bud that doesn't have SOMEONE'S name on it! Everyone always wants more, and usually _RIGHT SPANKING NOW, DAMMIT!_ 

Mind, you have to figure that growing dope _*IS*_ my job, has been since this one particular pathetic drunken bitch ran me over (and fled the scene) some years ago... if it wasn't for weed, I'd have fronted the bankruptcy tribunal some years ago.


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 9, 2008)

we run our hood the same way. suck air from out the room through the hood ( hood has glass bottom) & back out the room. this method does suck some air from the room through the glass but it keeps just a little bit of pressure pulling into the room so no smell gets out when lights are on. & doesn't pull hard enough to suck all the co2 out the room. so seems 2 be very affective, & efficient .


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 10, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> doesn't pull hard enough to suck all the co2 out the room. so seems 2 be very affective, & efficient .


When you come up with a fan which will suck all the CO2 out of anything, let me know. We'll make a king's fortune solving global warming. 

The only way room air can be depleted of CO2 is by not ventilating _enough_, allowing the plants to use up what CO2 is in the room's airmass.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Feb 10, 2008)

wow, sit still for a whlie, I am having trouble keeping up with all the improvments. VV


----------



## skunkman98536 (Feb 10, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> wow, sit still for a whlie, I am having trouble keeping up with all the improvments. VV


haha ya no shit i just started doing this little cycle .. but on a much smaller scale haha i only do 18 clones at a time how many do u usally pull of the mums


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 10, 2008)

well ya i know that. im talking about the co2 that we are injecting into the room from a tank, lol


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 10, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> wow, sit still for a whlie, I am having trouble keeping up with all the improvments. VV


you & me both. 



skunkman98536 said:


> haha ya no shit i just started doing this little cycle .. but on a much smaller scale haha i only do 18 clones at a time how many do u usally pull of the mums


I take 30 cuttings every 14-15 days. 



infamouse21 said:


> well ya i know that. im talking about the co2 that we are injecting into the room from a tank, lol


Well, you didn't bother to tell me that you have a CO2 tank! 

Hope you splashed out the big bux for a proper CO2 metering device which senses CO2 ppm, doses accordingly and controls exhaust fans. I'm planning to install CO2 next- and I'd like one of these, please.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Feb 10, 2008)

All good...except the 240volt part. VV


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 10, 2008)

figured u would of known that we were using co2 being i said something like that. but then again some people say crazy things, lol.

well we dont have a cos controller & censor yet. we use a math formula & hope for the best but its by far accurate cause u dont know how much excapes ect..

we are looking into 2 options.
1 we can buy that electronic system for right around 900$. & it basically takes car of everyting including monitoring co2 from 1 box as u know , but some dont.

2 we are looking into a computer system that does all the same things & u control it from anywhere u want. btu what makes this system even better 
is it makes graphs that u can compare everything from co2 vs fan/temp vs humidity ect... & this system starts for around 600$ & goes up depending on what u want 2 add. so it will work out 2 be about the same price except u have more options, oh aslo u can set up a cam & do time laps.

do u know of any other comp systems?
Growtronix, Greenhouse Controller and Grow Room Computer Automation System


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 11, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hope you splashed out the big bux for a proper CO2 metering device which senses CO2 ppm, doses accordingly and controls exhaust fans. I'm planning to install CO2 next- and I'd like one of these, please.


woah whats up with that website? it doesn't quite work, is it even real?! stuff sounds pretty sweet but everytime i click on something the site just craps out. so you down under, al b?


----------



## krillianred (Feb 11, 2008)

13-16oz??? jesus christ. do you slang it too?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 11, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> All good...except the 240volt part. VV


There is a 120V version for the US, but it seems the link to the information page is broken. If you're interested, email "info at accenthydroponics dot com" and see what they tell you. 



infamouse21 said:


> figured u would of known that we were using co2 being i said something like that. but then again some people say crazy things, lol.


 You did?



denverm4x said:


> woah whats up with that website? it doesn't quite work, is it even real?! stuff sounds pretty sweet but everytime i click on something the site just craps out. so you down under, al b?


Nah totally fake website, I like to put up stuff like that to confuse ppl, confusion is what I'm here for.  

One of their links is broken, pop them an email to the above address with queries. 



krillianred said:


> 13-16oz??? jesus christ. do you slang it too?


Only in slanging matches. 

You can add 50% to that production figure given recent improvements.


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 11, 2008)

does that system u are looking at for the c02 work in conjunction with fans ect...


----------



## SaRaNaC (Feb 11, 2008)

Hi Al, I just wanna say i have been watching and learning from your thread on grasscity and now just read the 50+ pages here today. I am about to move and want to do a 2 tray system of 4x4 in a hydrohut. Harvest ever month instead of 2 weeks.

Here is the hydrohut:
Discount Hydroponics - HydroHut Deluxe

but the local hydro store wants me to put two 600w or 1000w hps in it and i really dont want to do two 1000w hps. So my question is should i get dual 600w hps or get one 1000w like you system and mod the cool tube with winged reflector.

I am also thinking of going with 6x6x6 rock wool cubes b/c i cant find rock wool sold in a bale around here. what is your take on that? 

Thanks for all the help and research already, you are da man.


----------



## butterflykisses (Feb 11, 2008)

hey al what would you say was your single best yeild increasing improvement?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 12, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> does that system u are looking at for the c02 work in conjunction with fans ect...


yep.



SaRaNaC said:


> should i get dual 600w hps or get one 1000w like you system and mod the cool tube with winged reflector.


I'd opt for a single 1000- and I'd build my own grow tent rather than spending about 4-5x the construction cost on a HydroHut.



SaRaNaC said:


> I am also thinking of going with 6x6x6 rock wool cubes b/c i cant find rock wool sold in a bale around here. what is your take on that?


I'm not overfond of large RW cubes, especially not for starting clones. Big cubes hold too much water compared to the uptake rate of clones. 40mm cubes are the biz for rooting clones. Once your clones are rooted, they can get put into RW slabs or large (100mm (4") or 150mm (6")) cubes, if that's all you can get. Water them only about 1x day. 

I've kinda moved on a bit from pots full of RW floc; I used it for years, but I always thought it holds water for too long, allowing dissolved O2 to dissipate before the plant can draw it up. Only when plants get larger, at about the 4th wk of flowering, are they really large enough to make an appreciable dent in 24 hours in the ~2L of water an 8" pot filled (only) with floc can absorb. 

I've been seeking a better medium for a long time- came across Fytocell a few mos ago- and it really is the bizness. 

These days, I only put about 25mm (1") of RW floc in the bottom of each pot and fill the remaining space with Fytocell. The layer of floc in the bottom keeps the Fytocell crumbs from escaping through the pot drain holes and once wet, also weights down the pot. Fytocell holds so much air that a pot of it will float. 

Roots will thread nicely through Fytocell, whereas roots tend to grow _around_ the layer of floc in the bottoms of my pots- floc is usually too wet for roots to grow through it, even when only watered 1x/day. Water will lose all its dissolved O2 in about 24H. If you can't water at least 1x/day with freshly aerated nute soln, the water left for longer than that in the big RW cubes or pots of floc will stagnate. 

40mm RW cubes are small enough that between water uptake from the clone and direct evaporation (esp when on a heatmat), they will want watering 2x/day, at least until transplanted into pots of media for further growing.



butterflykisses said:


> hey al what would you say was your single best yeild increasing improvement?


The dehumidifier solved a lot of problems and the improvements were dramatic, notably for winter operation. The dehumidifier makes a little bit of heat which helps keep the room above 16C even when the intake air for the op is very cool (12-14C). I expect the improvement from the cooltubes will be at least as dramatic, if not more so, particularly for summer operation.

A grow room is an integrated system; in just one example, the optimal ventilation rate is dependent on not just the room air volume but the number of plants and the amt of light power in the op. Change one thing and other things may change; e.g. a massive ventilation system may cause you to have to water more often. It's hard for me to make sweeping recommendations for all ops built in any space because even the location of a grow op within the structure housing it will change certain parameters. I can give rough estimations, but it's up to you to really tweak it in so it works well for your situation.


----------



## Hydrotech364 (Feb 12, 2008)

*about how much area is the whole setup taking?i like the idea of that much every two weeks i like it alot ,,,drool!!!*


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 12, 2008)

SaRaNaC said:


> should i get dual 600w hps or get one 1000w like you system and mod the cool tube with winged reflector.





Al B. Fuct said:


> I'd opt for a single 1000


Thinking about this a bit further given the '50W/sq ft of HPS lighting' rule-o-thumb. 

If your 2 tables really are 4'x4', you should probably go with the pair of 600s. 

My trays are only 820mm^2 (2.7 feet sq) or 7.2 sq ft per tray, making a pair of them about 14.4 sq ft, fine for a single 1000. This is about 70W/sq ft.

A 4'x4' tray is by itself 16 sq ft, theoretically requiring about 800W of HPS per tray for 50W/sq ft. 

You can get plenty of bud from a pair of ~3'x3' trays. You might opt for the smaller trays and use a single 1000. A good batwing reflector has a 2:1 rectangular coverage pattern, well suiting a pair of appropriately sized square trays.


----------



## rifishman (Feb 12, 2008)

Al B,
Quick question. You mentioned way back that you flood your trays once per day. During a 12 hour cycle, when to you flood them? start, middle near the end ?

How long do you run the flood cycle for?

I have my first 3x3 (foot) tray with 24 plants in and the top few inches of each pot feels rather dry. 

Great system you have. Just installed first of four 3x3 (foot) trays in my 6x13(foot) room.

RI


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 12, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> *about how much area is the whole setup taking?i like the idea of that much every two weeks i like it alot ,,,drool!!!*


My entire op fits in a carpark sized space. It is 9' L x 8' W x 7' H. 

Mind you, it is very small compared to what is in it and is a bit cramped to work in. The room size is closely matched to the lights and trays. This means the reflective pandafilm covered walls are all very close to the trays, returning more light to the plants which would otherwise be wasted on the floor.

I think I'd prefer to work with a grow tent within a larger room, which would have the same advantage of having the walls very close to the plants but would allow access to plants from all sides by moving the tent walls, but I had to work with wot I got.  Given that my plants are in pots of media, they can be picked up and moved if need be, making all-side access a bit less important than if they were in immobile arrangements.


----------



## Squeechie (Feb 12, 2008)

Just browsing thru the thread and got a question or two.


I havent heard anything mentioned of CO2. Do you use any?
Also, your the first i have seen using such large clones. What is your success rate on them?

Thanks.


----------



## Squeechie (Feb 12, 2008)

Sorry Al, for the CO2 Question........ I see that you have answered that already. Thanks.. Such a long great thread, and I got anxious.


----------



## SaRaNaC (Feb 12, 2008)

Thanks for the info, the fytocell was a good find. But do you buy the slab or flake bags of that stuff? 

I still have a month before i close (own) the house and i am thinking of making my own hydro hut and going with the smaller trays with 1000hps with adjust a wing. Have any good links for hut building materials?

Again ty for all the info i have learned from ya and please take some pics of your cooltube with adjust-a-wing mod please!!!!


----------



## fiona (Feb 12, 2008)

pvc is cheap and easy. wood is even cheaper.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 12, 2008)

Squeechie said:


> Also, your the first i have seen using such large clones. What is your success rate on them?


100% nearly every time. 

The only time I have clones fail to root is when I get some RW cubes with poor density. Some cubes are simply defective- you try to plug a stem in them and they collapse. Sometimes I can make cubes with poor density work, sometimes I can't. The stem has to fit snugly in the RW cube. Soft cubes don't stay snugly on the stem- the air gap prevents proper rooting. 

To compensate for bad cubes, I do cut more clones than I need, to insure against any failures and so I can select the most vigorous ones to flower. I only need 23-24 per batch but I cut 30 each time. 


As you see pictured here, thicker stemmed clones outperform thinner ones. Cuttings on the stack on the left are all 4mm and under, the ones on the right are 5.5mm and up. Of course they were all cut at the same time. Thicker stems make more roots faster, every time. You can make your cuttings as tall as you like; as long as the cutting can get sufficient water uptake through the stem, it will not wilt. No humidome required. If clones wilt, the scalpel wasn't sterile or the media is overwet and the stem tip is being blocked by pathogen activity. Recut the stem with a sterile scalpel, stick it in fresh media that has been dampened with a 1ml H2O2 per 1L water, corrected to pH 5.5-5.8, put it on a 30C heatmat and it will root in 7 days, 10 max. Overwet media will cause rooting probs for most new cloners. Think damp, never wet or saturated. A 40mm rockwool cube weighs 5g dry and 25-30g when damp. Heavier than that is too wet- insufficient air will slow rooting development.



SaRaNaC said:


> Thanks for the info, the fytocell was a good find. But do you buy the slab or flake bags of that stuff?
> 
> I still have a month before i close (own) the house and i am thinking of making my own hydro hut and going with the smaller trays with 1000hps with adjust a wing. Have any good links for hut building materials?
> 
> Again ty for all the info i have learned from ya and please take some pics of your cooltube with adjust-a-wing mod please!!!!


I buy 100L bags of Fytocell "flake" (more like crumbs).

The only fancy stuff you need to build your grow room is pandafilm (PVC sheeting, black one side, white the other). If you need it to be lightproof, buy the heaviest thickness you can get. You can see a dull glow from a 400HPS through 115 micron pandafilm. Use 250 micron if you need 100% blockage of light. 250u will block all light from a 1000HPS. Any hydro shop and many large hdwe shops have it.

There's some (bad) pics of the cooltubes here. I'll take some better ones when I can.


----------



## GoodFriend (Feb 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 100% nearly every time.
> 
> The only time I have clones fail to root is when I get some RW cubes with poor density. Some cubes are simply defective- you try to plug a stem in them and they collapse. Sometimes I can make cubes with poor density work, sometimes I can't. The stem has to fit snugly in the RW cube. Soft cubes don't stay snugly on the stem- the air gap prevents proper rooting.
> 
> ...


what do you think of the DIY cool tubes? =]


----------



## bigal10 (Feb 12, 2008)

Is there any way to show us a picture of the finished buds after they have been dried?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 13, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> what do you think of the DIY cool tubes? =]


Nice work. 

I bought a pair of Pyrex Bake-A-Round tubes off Ebay with the intent of making cooltubes out of them, decided I liked them better in the kitchen. 

Here's some (marginally) better pics of my cooltubes, as promised. 









bigal10 said:


> Is there any way to show us a picture of the finished buds after they have been dried?


Sure, bi gal... or is that big al? 



dunno, 'bout 4-5z there in a 10 litre plastic storage tub.


----------



## thebAse (Feb 13, 2008)

WOW! i started reading this tread and got so hooked i couldn't stop... it took hours to finish, lol! there's so much information here... it's a lot to absorb in one sitting! most of the questions i had at first have been answered somewhere along the way... so i just wanted to add my thanks to all the others. Mr. Fuct (et al) you've done a great job with this thread... it's EPIC! i've been inspired... THANK YOU!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 13, 2008)

rifishman said:


> Al B,
> Quick question. You mentioned way back that you flood your trays once per day. During a 12 hour cycle, when to you flood them? start, middle near the end ?


Fytocell is less absorbent than rockwool floc. Since changing to Fytocell, I'm flooding 2x per lights on cycle, at lights-on and 2 hours before lights-off. 



> How long do you run the flood cycle for?


Just long enough for the pump to fill to the overflow tube level. This varies by the capacity of the pump. I have several different pumps; the fastest pumps fill the tray in 3 mins, the smaller pumps in about 5.



> I have my first 3x3 (foot) tray with 24 plants in and the top few inches of each pot feels rather dry.


No problem. You're watering from the bottom and that's where the roots are. However, new plants can be handwatered from the top for about 4-7 days, until their roots grow down into the media a bit. The fingertip test works better when watering from the top. Just before planting newly rooted clones, I use a spare pump and a hose to fully saturate the Fytocell. Once it has been well saturated the first time, Fytocell generally wicks enough water from standard flood cycles up to the middle of the pot, where a young plant's roots are, so that handwatering newbies isn't all that necessary.

A side benefit of watering from the bottom by flood is that the media tops do stay quite dry, inhibiting messy algae growth. 

Determine when to water next by the weight of the pot. When the pot loses about 50% of its water weight, it is time to flood again. Determine the water capacity of a pot of media by weighing a pot of dry media, wetting it and allowing it to drain. Weigh again, subtract dry weight; since water weighs 1g per ml, you now know exactly how much water in ml your media holds.


----------



## crazy-mental (Feb 13, 2008)

nice lot of bud, is that what you get every 2 week or so?.
looking good.
im starting the 2 week cycle thing,, just 2 plants every 2 weeks.
so i have a plant a week to smoke.
i smoke 1/2 oz to 3/4 a week, so thats all i need .


----------



## GoodFriend (Feb 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Nice work.
> 
> I bought a pair of Pyrex Bake-A-Round tubes off Ebay with the intent of making cooltubes out of them, decided I liked them better in the kitchen.


i didnt know people actually used them for baking... 

hahaha


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 13, 2008)

crazy-mental said:


> nice lot of bud, is that what you get every 2 week or so?.
> looking good.
> im starting the 2 week cycle thing,, just 2 plants every 2 weeks.
> so i have a plant a week to smoke.
> i smoke 1/2 oz to 3/4 a week, so thats all i need .


No, what's pictured is only about 1/3 to 1/4 of a biweekly harvest. The rest has already been smoked (by someone, if not me). 

When just starting out growing, grow a little more than you need to cover you in case things go wrong. Put in 3 plants if you can. Dispose of the worst performing plant a week or so into flowering. 



lumberjack_ian said:


> i didnt know people actually used them for baking...
> 
> hahaha


They're BRILLIANT in the kitchen! I use them to bake French bread. I also use them to assemble stuffed chicken breast rolls; I pound out the chicken with a kitchen mallet, put some crouton stuffing with celery on the chicken, roll it up and stick it in the Bake-A-Round- not for baking, but to help slide the chicken roll into an elastic baking net. The butcher shop will do that for me- but then they gleefully charge me 2x the per kilo rate for chicken breast, just for sticking some chicken in a baking net...


----------



## GoodFriend (Feb 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> They're BRILLIANT in the kitchen! I use them to bake French bread. I also use them to assemble stuffed chicken breast rolls; I pound out the chicken with a kitchen mallet, put some crouton stuffing with celery on the chicken, roll it up and stick it in the Bake-A-Round- not for baking, but to help slide the chicken roll into an elastic baking net. The butcher shop will do that for me- but then they gleefully charge me 2x the per kilo rate for chicken breast, just for sticking some chicken in a baking net...


my grocery sells french bread $1 per loaf, maybe things are differnet down under... so i think i'll keep using mine to cool my light... 

the other thing just sounds like too much work for this lazy stoner


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 13, 2008)

thebAse said:


> WOW! i started reading this tread and got so hooked i couldn't stop... it took hours to finish, lol! there's so much information here... it's a lot to absorb in one sitting! most of the questions i had at first have been answered somewhere along the way... so i just wanted to add my thanks to all the others. Mr. Fuct (et al) you've done a great job with this thread... it's EPIC! i've been inspired... THANK YOU!


Thanks for the compliments. 

However, the thread is getting so long that it is beginning to capture significant changes in the way I run the op. The info on the first post isn't totally valid anymore- some things I was doing were causing problems. Unless you read the whole thread, you'll repeat the mistakes I was making. 

Notable changes:

* PK13-14 applied now at 0.5ml/l in week 5 only, not week 3
* 1tsp Epsom Salts and 10ml Canna liquid calcium per 125L tank on biweekly tank dump/clean/renew
* No grow nutes added to clone watering mixture. pH correct with phosphoric acid 'pHDown' to 5.5 and add 10ml 50% grade H2O2 per 10L of clone watering soln
* Media is now 25mm of RW floc tightly packed in pot bottoms with remainder of pot filled with Fytocell flake. Fytocell holds so much air that pots of it will float. Wet floc in the pot bottom weights down the pot to stop it floating and prevents Fytocell from escaping pot drain holes
* Watering cycle is now 2x per lights on cycle in flowering; at lights-on and 2 hours before lights-off


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 13, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> my grocery sells french bread $1 per loaf, maybe things are differnet down under... so i think i'll keep using mine to cool my light...
> 
> the other thing just sounds like too much work for this lazy stoner


You can buy the bread but you can't bring home the smell of the bakery! Nothing perfumes a house like the scent of a loaf of yeasty bread in the last 30 mins of baking.  

A stuffed chicken roll IS one of the more complex things I do in the kitchen, but I do like to cook. I also hate paying the meat shop 2x the chicken per kilo rate for something I can do myself in 5 mins.


----------



## GoodFriend (Feb 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You can buy the bread but you can't bring home the smell of the bakery! Nothing perfumes a house like the scent of a loaf of yeasty bread in the last 30 mins of baking.
> 
> A stuffed chicken roll IS one of the more complex things I do in the kitchen, but I do like to cook. I also hate paying the meat shop 2x the chicken per kilo rate for something I can do myself in 5 mins.


... i prefer my place reeking of pot, not bread... thank you

haha
lets let this thread get back on track, huh?


----------



## bigal10 (Feb 13, 2008)

Bingo, Bango, Bungo those buds look tasty nice job!!! I am in the process of finding where to get the spot set up. I am in Southern Cali at the moment you think its better if I move to N. Cali.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 13, 2008)

Indoor is indoor whether you're in Baja or Bakersfield.


----------



## RisingStock (Feb 15, 2008)

Hey Al, just finished reading 57 pages of GREAT information, _*thanks much*_. I know quite A FEW many 'lazier' stoners (looking in MY general direction).

One thing I noticed was quite a few of the same questions.....in the interest of the next person, I've taken the liberty of summing it all up. 
NOTE: I've adjusted the following a bit just w/anecdotes I've picked up, 'notes to self', and a adjustment for DWC--not necessarily endorsed by Al. 
Hope this helps and I would be honored with a critique.
***************************************************
*Sea** Of Green*
SEE 1st PAGE FOR SPECIFIICS--------THESE ARE JUST NOTES

* Needed*: 2 (eventually) 1000W HPS w/digi ballast, one over each pair of 4' x 4' trays
H2O2 (50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/litre, about every 3-4 days)
Vita Grow Anti-Wilt Concentrate
Superthrive
Panda film
Canna Flores Substra
Canna Vega Substra
Canna PK-13-14.
Paper plates to cover plants base (no light on roots)
'Indoor Marijuana Horticulture' ISBN 1-878823-17-5


*Motherz*
_Plants grown from seed need 6-8 weeks to sexual maturity._
-Under my old light, 24 hrs
Canna Vega Sunstra, 1400ppm, 5.5-5.8, also H2O2, Epsom salts and calcium.
&#8216;Tip&#8217; the main growth to force division
Take 15 days to re-grow-so 3 Momz need are _really _6, (3 replacements)
-After 3-4 cuttings (about 2 mos worth) discard and replace (get _gnarly_), ready in about 2 weeks.


*Clonez*
-Rooting takes 10-12 days
-No grow nutes added to clone watering mixture. 
-pH correct with phosphoric acid 'pHDown' to 5.5 and add 10ml 50% grade H2O2 per 10L of clone watering soln
-Use my fluorescent 10-12 days, then put in BLOOM
24 hr light EXCEPT for 1st cutting (1 night dark, next few 18/6)
Every 2 weeks

*Flower*
_All_ flowering tanks:
-get Canna Flores Substra, 1400ppm @ 5.5-5.8 (400ml ea A & B in 125L tank of 7.1 tapwater). _except _last tray
- teaspoon of Epsom Salts per 100L w/each new fresh mix
-10ml/125L of Canna liquid calcium. w/each new fresh mix
-get dosed with H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/litre every 3-4 days to control pathogens.
-1000 HPS @ 12/12

-_tray 1_ is mixed for just-rooted cuttings, from week 0-2. (900-1100ppm)pH5.8
-_tray 2_ is for week 2-4 (TRIM time!-once in week 2, once in 3) and gets a slightly stronger mix than #1. 
-_tray 3_ gets 1300-1500ppm
Also gets a dose of 0.5ml/litre Canna PK-13-14 in wk 5 (a Phosphorous additive). (1300-1500ppm + whatever the PK-13-14 bumps it up to)
-_tray 4_ can be simply pH adjusted tap water
-Can just be ONE tray

*As each batch of clones goes in to tray #1, a batch comes out of tray #4 to be harvested, every 2 weeks.

* 1400ppm @ 5.8.
Don't overwater nor overfertilize, keep your room at 24-26C @ 30-50% RH
Ppm _may _be lower for DWC
*****************************************************


----------



## RisingStock (Feb 15, 2008)

A few questions popped up as I was reading, as well. When you have the time.......

First, totally off base, but how do you change your handle? Mine says 'RisingStock---_stranger_. That bothers me for some reason.....

Anyway, back to the questions:
1) Why would you use a _dehumidifier _in winter? Doesn't the house heating tend to dry things out anyway? 
2) For those wanting to add CO2, I read somewhere spraying your plants with plain soda water helps (releases trace amounts of CO2).....any thoughts on that?
3) I know you wrote it somewhere, but when cloning you don't presently use anything but pH adjusted water and a cloning powder, correct? Can you recommend a good brand? Sorry if that's repetitive.
4) Along those same lines, any thoughts on Superthrive or Vita Grow Anti-Wilt Concentrate? (for us clone-challenged) 
Lastly, I'm starting straight from seeds, I have 10, all feminized.....planning on keeping 3 as Moms and going straight to flower with the other 7, do I still have to wait the 6-8 weeks for those 7 to be sexually ready before they can go into flower? Or is sooner OK?.....
*
Thanks man*, this is like the holy grail of threads......

By the way, what do cool tubes do? What the name suggests I'm guessing.....


----------



## southfloridasean (Feb 15, 2008)

RisingStock said:


> Hey Al, just finished reading 57 pages of GREAT information, _*thanks much*_. I know quite A FEW many 'lazier' stoners (looking in MY general direction).
> 
> One thing I noticed was quite a few of the same questions.....in the interest of the next person, I've taken the liberty of summing it all up.
> NOTE: I've adjusted the following a bit just w/anecdotes I've picked up, 'notes to self', and a adjustment for DWC--not necessarily endorsed by Al.
> ...


I think that mother plants may need three months to fully mature if Im not mistaken


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 15, 2008)

RisingStock said:


> Hey Al, just finished reading 57 pages of GREAT information, _*thanks much*_.


No problem. 



> One thing I noticed was quite a few of the same questions.....in the interest of the next person, I've taken the liberty of summing it all up.
> NOTE: I've adjusted the following a bit just w/anecdotes I've picked up, 'notes to self', and a adjustment for DWC--not necessarily endorsed by Al.
> Hope this helps and I would be honored with a critique.


OK



> *Needed*: 2 (eventually) 1000W HPS w/digi ballast, one over each pair of 4' x 4' trays
> H2O2 (50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/litre, about every 3-4 days)
> Vita Grow Anti-Wilt Concentrate
> Superthrive



(items in red are not particularly necessary, esp the digi ballast. Electronic types are _*far *_too expensive for no benefit but about a 5% power savings. Claims of up to 30% increased luminous output are simply false. I've tested a Lumatek 600 vs a std mag, side by side, with a lux meter- and there's no difference in luminous output at all. Traditional magnetic (inductive) ballasts are 1/3 to 1/4 the price of electronic types and have 10-20 year lifespans- my magnetic ballasts are now 8 yrs old. Failure of electronic ballasts in under 5 yrs is common.

Use 3'x3' instead of 4'x4' trays. If you want to use 4x4's, use 4x 750W HPS, one over each tray. 750W is a new std value for HPS. 750W HPS ballasts & lamps may not be widely available yet.




> Panda film
> Canna Flores Substra
> Canna Vega Substra
> Canna PK-13-14.
> ...


 
 Could be one tray but this prevents proper application of PK1314. PK is applied to wk5 flowering plants for one wk only. If you have only one tank, you'd dose all the plants. 



RisingStock said:


> A few questions popped up as I was reading, as well. When you have the time.......
> 
> First, totally off base, but how do you change your handle? Mine says 'RisingStock---_stranger_. That bothers me for some reason.....


The forum changes the title corresponding with the number of posts you have made. You had 15 posts as of this query. You are, effectively, a stranger to most of us with so few posts. As your post count increases, different, hopefully more appealing titles will be applied. 



> Anyway, back to the questions:
> 1) Why would you use a _dehumidifier _in winter? Doesn't the house heating tend to dry things out anyway?


There is no heating in the area where my op is located, but then I don't live in a climate that ever gets freezing temps. My house doesn't have any permanent heating, either. Don't need it. My op has to cope with being in an unheated space, but most of the year, the air temp is about 20C. In deepest winter, it will get down to about 12C for a few days a year, almost never any cooler. Never gets much warmer than about 28C either, and again, for only a few days a year. 

It is peak summer now, but winter is when I most need my dehumidifier. The only heat the room gets is from the lights (and the dehumidifier). That may or may not be enough to raise the room's air to the main exhaust thermostat setpoint. If the exhaust doesn't run because it is too cool, humidity will continue to rise in the grow airspace, to dangerous levels, above 70%, where powdery mildew and grey mould (bud rot) are almost a sure thing. 

If your room will be served by forced air heating (and hopefully, cooling too), a dehumidifier is not needed. Keep in mind that if your grow op shares the airmass handled by central heating/cooling, your house will smell like a grow op unless you do some scent control, like a carbon filter for all air leaving the grow space. 



> 2) For those wanting to add CO2, I read somewhere spraying your plants with plain soda water helps (releases trace amounts of CO2).....any thoughts on that?


CO2 is only worth doing if done right. That means tank, regulator, CO2 measurement/control and a sealed room with exhaust blower controlled by the CO2 controller. Spraying soda water on a plant will be of dubious effect. 



> 3) I know you wrote it somewhere, but when cloning you don't presently use anything but pH adjusted water and a cloning powder, correct? Can you recommend a good brand? Sorry if that's repetitive.


Yep, that's pretty much the lot. H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/litre is useful in cube soaking and clone watering solutions. Prevents any pathogen growth and kills what's there already. 

Any rooting powder with about 8g butyric acid per kg will do. Brands vary- just look for the butyric acid content.



> 4) Along those same lines, any thoughts on Superthrive or Vita Grow Anti-Wilt Concentrate? (for us clone-challenged)


Some folks like Superthrive; I've used it in the past, but it is incredibly expensive and doesn't have much effect I can discern. The main ingredient is vitamin B, which is known to have some benefits to plants. I haven't used it in years and frankly don't miss it. 

I have no need at all for anti-wilt agents. As long as your scalpel is sterile and you've used some anti-pathogen measures in your RW cube soaking soln (H2O2 50% @ 1ml/L), you should not see wilting. If you see wilt in established plants, there's been root damage or disease- and anti-wilt agents are not likely to solve the problem.

Keeping cubes too wet can encourage pythium or fusarium, which can cause the stem tip to rot. If the tip rots, the clone will not be able to draw water through it and the clone will wilt. All is not lost- you can recut the stem with a sterile blade, put it in a new cube which is kept only damp, never wet or saturated. Put it on a heat mat and it will root in 7-10 days.


> Lastly, I'm starting straight from seeds, I have 10, all feminized.....planning on keeping 3 as Moms and going straight to flower with the other 7, do I still have to wait the 6-8 weeks for those 7 to be sexually ready before they can go into flower? Or is sooner OK?.....


Feminised seeds are not a sure thing. You'll get about 80% female at best. All plants raised from beans will have to be grown to sexual maturity before you can even determine sex, much less flower them. 


> * Thanks man*, this is like the holy grail of threads......


Great! Bring me a shrubbery- or I shall say *NI* to you! 



> By the way, what do cool tubes do? What the name suggests I'm guessing.....


Cooltubes are an air cooling system for HID lights. Simply a 150mm dia Pyrex tube enveloping the HPS tube, with ducted air feed and exhaust. Cooltubes remove air heated by the lamp before it can get to the plants. Cooltubes make it much easier to control the temp & RH of the grow room airmass as the main exhaust blower does not have to remove heat from the lights. 

Before installing my cooltubes, because I am running 2kW of light in a rather small 500 cu ft room air volume, the main exhaust blower ran almost all the time but room temp still would wander up to 27-29C, even with my intake air at 18-20C. After installing the cooltubes, my flowering area stays between 23-24C at all times, following the 23.5C main exhaust thermostat setting, even during lights on. Excessively high grow room temps lead to thin, weedy, 'stretchy' or 'runny' buds and lower overall yields. 



southfloridasean said:


> I think that mother plants may need three months to fully mature if Im not mistaken


Plants will show preflowers at nodes in 6-8 weeks from seed under veg lighting. Once preflowers are apparent, the plant can be sexed, either by taking a cutting and flowering once rooted or by covering one branch of the plant for 12h/day
.


----------



## RisingStock (Feb 15, 2008)

Thanks for setting me straight........especially concerning the Superthrive and digi ballast (someone had mentioned them and were never clearly contradicted, which I took as a silent approval) Anyway, that'll save me serious dinero. 

I envy _your_ winters---it's freezing here.

Anyway, in the _very_ beginning stages of a SoG DWC, might start a photo journal to show y'all how it goes.

Then again, I'm a lazy stoner.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 15, 2008)

Cold sux, no thanks. 

Found my ballast testing notes. I noted a power savings of 55W using an electronic ballast on a 600HPS vs a traditional magnetic- that's 9%, not 5% savings as I said previously. 

If you are using a great number of ballasts, this could be a significant cost savings. Electronic ballasts also start the tube a bit more 'softly' meaning you'll get more starts per tube life. In horticultural applications, most tube makers recommend yearly relamping due to output degradation. You'll have no problem getting a magnetic to start a tube every day for a year. 

If you're a town council maintaining a few thousand streetlights, you don't care so much about output degradation and can run an HPS tube for a few years. Citizens don't report somewhat dim streetlights, they report ones which have gone out or are cycling on/off when trying to strike an arc, as HPS tends to do at end of life. Softer starting in this application means you might get 4 years out of a tube instead of 3. 

If you're running one or two ballasts and are deciding between a long lived, $90-120 magnetic ballast or a ~$250-350 electronic model, the time required to recover the price difference through the greater efficiency of the electronic ballast, at typical pwr co rates, is in excess of the roughly 5 year service life of the electronic ballast. 

It's OK to be lazy, as long as you are attentively so.  I'm vigorously slacking as we speak.


----------



## denverm4x (Feb 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> As you see pictured here, thicker stemmed clones outperform thinner ones. Cuttings on the stack on the left are all 4mm and under, the ones on the right are 5.5mm and up. Of course they were all cut at the same time. Thicker stems make more roots faster, every time. You can make your cuttings as tall as you like; as long as the cutting can get sufficient water uptake through the stem, it will not wilt. No humidome required. If clones wilt, the scalpel wasn't sterile or the media is overwet and the stem tip is being blocked by pathogen activity. Recut the stem with a sterile scalpel, stick it in fresh media that has been dampened with a 1ml H2O2 per 1L water, corrected to pH 5.5-5.8, put it on a 30C heatmat and it will root in 7 days, 10 max. Overwet media will cause rooting probs for most new cloners. Think damp, never wet or saturated. A 40mm rockwool cube weighs 5g dry and 25-30g when damp. Heavier than that is too wet- insufficient air will slow rooting development.


i love you


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 16, 2008)

heh, glad something in that was useful to you, dm4x. 

I'm pretty slow on the uptake with plants... I am not a naturally green-thumbed type person. I can't count how many batches of cuttings I killed before I finally sorted out the seemingly simple matter of keeping the media damp and not wet. 

But here's what really annoys me- I can clone 30 cannabis plants with 100% success rate every 2 weeks but _*Al B Fuct*_ if I can get other plants to root in rockwool. I have a Wollemi Pine and several grevilleas that I would LOVE to make copies of... but the cuttings just sit there and laugh at me for trying... then croak.


----------



## fiona (Feb 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> ... but the cuttings just sit there and laugh at me for trying... then croak.



HAH...your gifts are focused.


----------



## cmak40 (Feb 16, 2008)

Al b. can you please check this thread and give me a competent opinion

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/51072-new-op-all-variables-given.html

i need some help and a full competent answer form someone who knows could do me good. thank you, toke on..


----------



## thebAse (Feb 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> As you see pictured here, thicker stemmed clones outperform thinner ones. Cuttings on the stack on the left are all 4mm and under, the ones on the right are 5.5mm and up.


5.5mm is a very precise measurement... i'd want some calipers to help take the guesswork out of it... a perfect cutting, every time!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 17, 2008)

I keep a plain ol set of vernier cowpliers. 

I don't measure stems when doing cuttings, tho. I just start with the biggest stems on the mums and work my way down in sizes until I have 30 cubes filled.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 17, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> Al b. can you please check this thread and give me a competent opinion
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/51072-new-op-all-variables-given.html
> 
> i need some help and a full competent answer form someone who knows could do me good. thank you, toke on..


My opinion is that you're not likely to want to hear my opinion.  

You want to do soil, you want organic, you want high production. Want fries with that, too?  

There's nothing evil about 'chemical' hydroponic nutes- they're the same elements as from organics when they enter the plant's roots. Soil, however, is a pain in the arse. Heavy, messy, hard to dispose of, poor productivity compared to even flood hydro. 

Rethink your grow space. Configure it for SoG, commit almost no space to mothers and clones, use the bulk of it for flowering. Think 50W/sq ft of HPS in flowering. Review this thread for notes on keeping mums and cutting clones. 

Yes, it's a long read, but pretty much all you want to know is answered. Don't forget about the GrowFAQ- it is your friend.


----------



## WidowMaker79 (Feb 17, 2008)

great ideas man!


----------



## LoudBlunts (Feb 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> My opinion is that you're not likely to want to hear my opinion.
> 
> You want to do soil, you want organic, you want high production. Want fries with that, too?
> 
> ...



LMAO!!! i send him over here to read and do his homework.....yet instead he asked you to do his reading/homework for him....


LOL!


----------



## southfloridasean (Feb 17, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> LMAO!!! i send him over here to read and do his homework.....yet instead he asked you to do his reading/homework for him....
> 
> 
> LOL!


Cheaters come last in he class  Well.......Some times LOL


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 17, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> LMAO!!! i send him over here to read and do his homework.....yet instead he asked you to do his reading/homework for him....


*sigh* 

yeah, saw that...  

...guess he missed wot I said on page 50:



> I don't mind discussing general concepts but I'd like to avoid designing other folks' ops from top to bottom or hand-holding them through a grow. It's just too taxing on my limited time. It's why I have PMs disabled. Remember, I'm a slacker and I'm running a very productive op. There's enough info on room construction and general theory of growing cannabis all over this board to get anyone through who can take the time to read the stuff. In terms of troubleshooting, there's folks on here who are much better at diagnosing stuff than I am, too. See potroast, he knows everything (please don't kill me pottie....  ).


I guess there _*ARE*_ lazier stoners than me out there!


----------



## cmak40 (Feb 18, 2008)

actually i read the whole thread but some of my options i wanted to use werte different, and was not reccomended how ever i still wanted to do them my way and get some help. i do understand the thread and everything it says. i was hoping for help with my particular situation. some of my variables are far different then whats stated. thanks for the help anyway ill take what i can from this and move on.


----------



## BillyBob604 (Feb 19, 2008)

Just another soil guy looking at going to a flood setup. 

Was wondering if you could tell me how much nutes you go through in a typical month.

Been trying to gauge how much a Flood setup would cost me for feed compared to a soil grow.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 19, 2008)

Each 125L tank in the flowering area is dumped and cleaned 2x a month. I use 400ml each of the Canna Flores 'A' and 'B' when mixing a new tank (yields 1400ppm), so each flood system uses 800ml nutes per mo. 

There are other necessary consumable items like 50% grade H2O2, which I apply at 1ml/litre, so 125ml in each tank, normally every 3-4 days but can be applied weekly. I also put 1tsp Epsom Salts and 10ml of Canna liquid calcium in each tank when mixing every 2 weeks. A 2L jug of pHDown lasts several months, requires about 20ml per tank when mixing, perhaps 10ml per tank in between dumps. 

There's some other expenses in hydro like nutrient and pH meters, which are sort-of consumables. Good pH meters (I use Eutech pHScan1 meters) have a replaceable probe tip; these last 2 years. I have a Truncheon nutrient meter which is now 7 years old and going like a champ, but that's longer than mfr Bluelab's estimation of the service life of the device. I can't recommend Bluelab's pHTruncheon meter. I have had 3, all croaked in weeks. You also will want an aquarium air pump and air stone for nutrient aeration. Air pumps last about a year, some come with a replacement set of pump diaphragms and flapper valves, good for another year's use. Common aquarium air stones, made from essentially glued sand, don't last long in acidic nutrient solutions. Use bubble curtains made from plastic materials. Look hard and you will find some bubble curtains with a porous poly sleeve with a woven stainless steel core, which weights them down to keep them from floating. This sort can be used for a couple of years with occasional cleaning with a scrub brush.

Hydro is indeed a bit more expensive than soil, but the benefits far outweigh the costs, which in the end are usually reasonable if you shop well for your hydro supplies- do comparisons between local shops. Some hydro shops are treated like cash cows by their operators- you can spot these jokers with their 1 litre bottles of H2O2, repacked with a house brand name and priced at $20-25. So's ya know, I pay $5/litre for 50% grade H2O2 in 25L jugs and could get it cheaper if I bought more qty... Make sure you shop around, especially online, to get a clue if your local hydro shop is clipping you.


----------



## WidowMaker79 (Feb 19, 2008)

Great advice, thanks.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 19, 2008)

Can't highly enough recommend installing cooltubes!

 



I've had them in for about 11 days now, not long enough to really discern any difference in how the plants are growing, but the numbers are sure adding up better. The peak-mem thermo sez there's only about a .75 degree C variation from the 23.7C main exhaust setpoint, ranging from to 23.0C to 24.5C. That range is during both lights-on and lights-off. The room air temp has never been so stable _and_ within the desired temp range. 

Without the tubes, it ran closer to 26.5-27C @ 70% during lights-on. RH is now bang-on 60%, still a bit higher than I'd like (even with the dehumidifier running), but lately, my intake air has been about 18C @ 80%RH- had a lot of rain recently. 

Better temp & RH control can't be anything but good.  Can't wait til I get the first batch out that has always been under the cooltubes. That batch went in yesterday, so will be out in 8 weeks.


----------



## We TaRdED (Feb 19, 2008)

Thanks so much! lots of great info on here. i just dont have the time to read it all right now, so im subscribing... Great job btw, and i dont think your a lazy stoner....


----------



## LoudBlunts (Feb 19, 2008)

the reflectors are sexy as hell!


----------



## SaRaNaC (Feb 19, 2008)

Al i cant find a place to get H2O2 online in the states, what company makes it?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 19, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> Thanks so much! lots of great info on here. i just dont have the time to read it all right now, so im subscribing... Great job btw, and i dont think your a lazy stoner....


Thanks for that. 

Most of the thread is meaty, not much fluff, suffer through it if you can. 

Does make me wonder if there's a practical upper limit to the length of a thread, though. It's not very searchable, but at least it's all there for anyone to browse.

But yeah, you know, I really *am *a lazy frickin' stoner- I'm typing this with a fat doob in my teeth and about to roll another... instead of doing something useful. 



LoudBlunts said:


> the reflectors are sexy as hell!


Ain't they?!  

The great part is that it's not like mags on a Pinto- they do kinda have that mad-scientist's-lab thing happening, but they actually accomplish something useful. 



SaRaNaC said:


> Al i cant find a place to get H2O2 online in the states, what company makes it?


H2O2 is a common oxidising chemical. You're most likely to find it at hydro shops. I buy from hydroponics equipment wholesalers- the folks who supply the local retail shopfront hydro shops- so I can get 25L bulk 'carboy' jugs instead of getting it repacked in 500ml-2L 'profit bottles' at 5x the bulk price.

You might also find it at foodservice supply houses where it is sold as a steriliser for food processing equipment. 'Food grade' may be 35% H2O2 as opposed to the 50% 'horticultural grade' but it's still usable. If you get 35%, use it at 1.5ml per litre of tank volume instead of 50% which is used at 1ml/L.


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (Feb 19, 2008)

Sorry if this is 'offensive' though it really shouldn't be lol....

I would say to anyone pondering the thought of going soil with generally the same setup as Al B Fuct I'd say go for it, that's what I did. My yields are just as good with LESS plants and heh I DON'T control several variables such as temp and humidity for no particular reason really except being lazy I probably will in the near future. Also worthy to note this was done with several different strains (indicas and sativas) and the sativas yield very low in SOG setups. This partially because I can't get cloning success as much as I'd like so I put out what I can but that's changing lately. After 2 perpetual harvests I've been content with my noob success. I expect numbers to increase when its an all one strain, indica garden which will be 2 harvests from now.

Soil I guess is _more _messy than hydro but that doesn't necessarily it is messy, my room is pretty clean I don't throw soil everywhere and I know exactly how much to water now so that it doesn't flood all over the place. I've pondered the idea of switching to hydro, don't want to start any arguments but (imo) if you smoke AAA marijuana you won't fancy hydro (though there is some very intense hydro sometimes).

Its a coincidence how my setup is basically the same as Al B Fucts, but I had started prior to this thread. Then later when I saw it I just modified it (took many weeks of effort) to be perpetual and now things are pretty consistent. My lights are also vertical which I think is more efficient but in the summer, the heat around them gets too intense so will have to worry about that later.

Also you have to purchase floc and all that stuff for hydro anyway so just as much disposing required, each harvest leaves me with 1-2 garbage bags of waste not stressful to me at all. And then I considered deep water culture but just no thanks. My soil garden forgave me even after being unattended for a WEEK at a time yes you heard that a week. Can you leave your hydro for a week need be? 

There are advantages and disadvantages and to each his own but I just think there should be less soil bashing here lol considering what it can offer.


----------



## upinchronic1 (Feb 19, 2008)

Aesome. I read the fist couple pages and then couldnt go on, but it gave me a great idea. I have a 150 watt hps that ill stick in a 2 drawer file cabinet and a 250 that ill set up in a dressor, with the 150 on 04 and the 250 on for 4-8, then one mother in a computer case ( lsted up the ass and trimmed to keep height reasonable), with a batch of clones in another PC

Thanks for the insperation man!!!



videoman40 said:


> This is wrong.Your power usage quotes are flawed, it largely depends on the quality of the ballast, as this could flucuate ALOT.
> Also your coverage is flawed too.
> Youll get better light coverage with 2-400s. better yet, 2-600s. The great thing about the 600s are they put out the same amount of light as a 750 watt HID would if you based it on the efficiency of a 1,000 watt HID. In other words, you'll get 75% of the amount of light from a 600 as youd get from a 1,000 at 60% of the energy cost.
> 
> ...


You might be the person i want to ask about ballasts. Ok so if you use HTG at all or know anything about them, do you think there cheap 50 dollar ballasts kits are bound to be shit?? For so cheap it makes you wonder... Plus htg ballast kit vs htg complete set ups vs their USA made 200 dollar ballast kits ( with the 30% extra lummen output).? Any advise GREATLy appreciated.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 19, 2008)

OhYesTheDopeMan said:


> Also you have to purchase floc and all that stuff for hydro anyway so just as much disposing required, each harvest leaves me with 1-2 garbage bags of waste not stressful to me at all. And then I considered deep water culture but just no thanks. My soil garden forgave me even after being unattended for a WEEK at a time yes you heard that a week. Can you leave your hydro for a week need be?
> 
> There are advantages and disadvantages and to each his own but I just think there should be less soil bashing here lol considering what it can offer.


Soil is about 4-5x the weight of even rather heavy rockwool floc. Multiply that times 23 pots (every 2 weeks) and it's a fairly significant amount of stuff to lug. A 100L bag of Fytocell stuffs ~50 pots but weighs under 10kg- you can easily carry a bag in each hand. 50x 175mm x 175mm pots of soil would easily weigh 150kg. Wet it and that becomes 200-220kg. 

Of course, you can dispose of used soil in your gardens- but for how long? I use about 1.5 cubic metres of media per year. If I had to spread the last 7 years worth of media on my gardens, I'd have raised my lot level by half a metre. After 2 crops, I doubt you will have encountered the long term disposal problem just yet. 

Floc & Fytocell are much lighter than soil and will both dry out rather readily- just point a fan at the harvested pots- Fytocell will dry in a few days, floc in about a week. It's not far from dry weight by time to bag it up and bin it. 

If you dispose of old media in common rubbish, weight is important. Most folks have rubbish collection via trucks that have robo-arms. If you overload the bin, the arm may crush the bin trying to grip it or it may not be able to lift it at all. 

Hydro is faster and yields better than soil for one simple reason- O2 to the roots. The less absorbent the media, the more often it can be watered with oxygenated nute solution. 

Long-term unattended watering systems are easily possible for hydro ops, but plants need attention other than watering, at least once a week. I have a vacation watering system which uses a reservoir, digital irrigation timer valve and float valves which allow me to leave my op unattended for a 8-10 days. 

While I appreciate that you're having fine luck with not measuring anything, what you're having, after 2 crops, is indeed just luck- and it will very likely run out. I actually _*know*_ what's going on in my op. When something stops working right, I'll know why and how to solve it. I like science a lot better than guessing.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 19, 2008)

upinchronic1 said:


> Aesome. I read the fist couple pages and then couldnt go on,


You really should go on and read the whole thing- if you had, you sure wouldn't be quoting videoman40 



> but it gave me a great idea. I have a 150 watt hps that ill stick in a 2 drawer file cabinet and a 250 that ill set up in a dressor, with the 150 on 04 and the 250 on for 4-8, then one mother in a computer case ( lsted up the ass and trimmed to keep height reasonable), with a batch of clones in another PC
> 
> Thanks for the insperation man!!!


Your mom will NEVER find it. 



> You might be the person i want to ask about ballasts. Ok so if you use HTG at all or know anything about them, do you think there cheap 50 dollar ballasts kits are bound to be shit?? For so cheap it makes you wonder... Plus htg ballast kit vs htg complete set ups vs their USA made 200 dollar ballast kits ( with the 30% extra lummen output).? Any advise GREATLy appreciated.


What's HTG?

I'm not a fan of electronic ballasts- not until they last 10 years and cost the same as an inductive ballast, thanks. Plain ol' inductive ballasts last nigh on forever and deliver the same luminous output as electronic types.


----------



## upinchronic1 (Feb 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You really should go on and read the whole thing- if you had, you sure wouldn't be quoting videoman40
> 
> Your mom will NEVER find it.
> 
> ...


Why wouldnt i be quoting videoman, he def knows his shit. Actually my mom not only will find it, but she will be claming one plant wich will be 20 percent, its so my younger siblings dont find out and say something stupid to anyone.

Check out HTGsupply.com, tey sell a shit load of growing acc.

And what is an inductive ballast? like a magnetic?


----------



## OhYesTheDopeMan (Feb 20, 2008)

1-2 bags of dirt every 2 weeks is not difficult to dispose anyway you look at it whatsoever, they aren't dead bodies. And most soil users tend to use a promix which is much lighter than the soil you're speaking off. When completely dry an 8" is probably 3 lbs.

If one were to go soil you probably wouldn't decide to have 23 plants a cycle due to the efforts needed to repot and water individually for soil but rather half that number and grow larger bushier plants. For my particular space, though I could fit 23 x 4 plants I felt a lot of the girls and budsites would be left in too much shade for my liking. And its easier to care for only 40 plants versus 80. 

Its not really luck actually, its I know the climate in there and the humidity and though they aren't perfect they are still good and actually replicates that of a region which grows the greatest outdoor bud. But IF I do decide to dedicate the extra effort I'd yield even more, I don't even have proper air circulation.

And Al B Fuct my comments aren't really targeted towards you as you clearly know what you're doing and are actually the main reason to my big yields, I finally found a setup that does what I want. Its actually for all the peeps mentioning soil, it may help to let them know it isn't exactly the darkside. All my other dozens of houseplants are hydro, I don't like soil in my living room


----------



## cmak40 (Feb 20, 2008)

THANK YOU VERY MUCH DOPEMAN
a connisiuer likes organic dirt, thats what i like , thats what i wanna grow, and thats what i wanna smoke


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 20, 2008)

upinchronic1 said:


> And what is an inductive ballast? like a magnetic?


Standard 'coil and core' ballasts are known either as 'magnetic' or 'inductive.' The current limiting element in the device (looks something like a transformer) is an inductor; a coil of wire, in this case with a laminated iron core. Inductance is effectively a resistance to AC current, related to the expansion and collapse of a magnetic field when an AC current encounters a coil of wire with certain characteristics. You can see how the terms are interchangeable. 



OhYesTheDopeMan said:


> If one were to go soil you probably wouldn't decide to have 23 plants a cycle due to the efforts needed to repot and water individually for soil but rather half that number and grow larger bushier plants.


Sea of Green-ish, but not quite SoG per se. Fewer yet bushier plants involve at least one pruning and some veg time between clones rooting and flowering them. Typical SoG exploits zero veg time after clones root, to save time and eliminate lighted floorspace spent on veg aside from mums. SoG also expoits the character that cannabis plants develop a larger terminal cola if they have only a single mainstem instead of divided growth induced by pruning. Pruned plants will yield more weight per plant than SoG style plants, but SoG plants yield larger, denser, heavier individual buds. 

I see what you're doing and it's a smart way to reduce plant counts, should the worst happen. However, compared to typical SoG plantflow, some additional time and facilities are required for bushy plants. Can't veg the clones you've pruned in the flowering area. A separate veg cycle lighting area would be needed in the pipeline, used for only a few days to a week for each batch, before they are flowered, so you get some branch development post pruning. 

If all goes well, you'll get something like this:





> And Al B Fuct my comments aren't really targeted towards you as you clearly know what you're doing and are actually the main reason to my big yields, I finally found a setup that does what I want. Its actually for all the peeps mentioning soil, it may help to let them know it isn't exactly the darkside. All my other dozens of houseplants are hydro, I don't like soil in my living room


Thanks for that. 

You're right, soil is forgiving, particularly for new growers and is eminently practical in small pot-count grows. However, as you note, dealing with a large qty of pots of soil is painful enough for you to want to reduce their numbers. 

Hydro has a reputation for being expensive and complicated- and it can be a bit of both, if you let it. Mind, if there was no production benefit to hydro, nobody would do it. However, in a continuous output op with lots of pots moving through it, hydro makes good financial sense and is more practical from a slackers' perspective for a one-man-op.


----------



## psyclone (Feb 20, 2008)

Well? Well? did you see the learned (and seminal) disquisition on plant feeding using Human (I hope (and fear)) ejaculate?
Thanks to you my SOG is astounding me-budding very heavily and set for 8oz's per square metre using 310watts inc 60 UV. I would not have thought it possible. And all without spilling seed (inappropiately).


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 20, 2008)

psy, I was really hoping I could completely avoid any conversation whatsoever about ppl wanking on their plants. Any. And I mean that _*most*_ sincerely. 

310W including 60UV? Is that 250W HPS and *shudder* 60W of incandescent UV blacklight? Say _*that *_ain't so, too!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 20, 2008)

BTW psyclone, the plants look bitchin'. Well done. 

You can bin the UV light tho, whatever sort it may be. You'll be getting plenty of UV from your HPS already. The UV output from HPS is proportionally similar to sunlight, right down to germicidal UVB wavelength @ 253nm.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Feb 20, 2008)

mh has more uv than hps.... 

al b., you dont agree that the glass from reflectors block out uv rays?

also, have you heard about the hybrid lights? why arent you using them? what do you think about them?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 20, 2008)

LB, I did a bit of research on this when considering cooltubes. HID tube envelopes are made from high light transmissibility borosilicate glass (aka Pyrex). The standard borosilicate used in Pyrex bakingware has somewhat lower UV transmissibility; about 30% of the shortest wavelength UV, that shorter than 300nm, is lost. 

There was no labelling on my cooltubes as to whether they used optical or more industrial grade Pyrex. At worst, I'm losing 30% of the very top frequency UV. 

Fluoro UV ozonator tubes, due to their very short operating wavelength at 253nm, use quartz for tube envelopes. Ozonator tubes cost a motza because of the quartz tube (14" (355mm) x 1" (25mm), $90! Don't want to think about the cost of a 150mm dia x 500mm long quartz tube, thanks. 

Hybrid? MH & HPS?


----------



## We TaRdED (Feb 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hybrid? MH & HPS?


HEY ABF!!!.. I still haven't read the whole thing yet, i just read the newest posts.. anyways, i cant speak for LB but i think he just might be talking about these hybrid lights... https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/23958-making-monster.html

kinda expensive if you ask me.... you can see it burning on the second page of the thread if you want to. 

i had some problems with some clones on my last batch. they had stem rot, i think, they were all soft and nasty. I think this was due to too much moisture in the soilless mix and too high of temps from my heat mat(will keep this in check next time around, you live and learn). so i got the idea from you to use peroxide, but i only have 3% laying around... i started a thread asking how much to use but no one answered except one person saying that "everyone hates the 3%, thats why no one has answered your question." 

why is 3% so bad? and if it wont do harm, how much should i use with my clones? i figured about 17 times more than you would use with the 50% stuff because 50%/3% =16.6666.. thus there is aprox 17 times more h202 in the 50% compared to the 3%....... ya.... so 17ml/liter?????? i could be all wrong about all this so im asking a pro like yourself... thanks in advance mate for your time and willingness to share your intelligence.


----------



## psyclone (Feb 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> BTW psyclone, the plants look bitchin'. Well done.
> 
> You can bin the UV light tho, whatever sort it may be. You'll be getting plenty of UV from your HPS already. The UV output from HPS is proportionally similar to sunlight, right down to germicidal UVB wavelength @ 253nm.


I would like to ditch it to save £'s, but the two plants it primarily shines on are so outdoing the others it would feel wrong for now-also my mainlight is 250watt hps and is small for the area-the UV tanning block helps to fill the 1metre space (running 6hours a day). I know you are right, but I will finish this grow before re-jigging lights- I have ordered 4 full spectrum 28 watt LED growlights to play with. 
Is your crop now on continual harvest? They look very fine.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 21, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> there is aprox 17 times more h202 in the 50% compared to the 3%....... ya.... so 17ml/liter??????


Yep, that's all there is to it. 

However, if your reservoir tank is as big as mine- 125L (and I have 4 of those in my flowering area)- that'd be 2125ml (2.125 litres) of 3% H2O2 for each of my 125L tanks, or 8.5 litres when I mix up 4 new tanks. When you consider the pharmacy 3% grade comes in ~250ml bottles, I'd need 34 bottles of the stuff. 

If you are running a micro op with a <10L tank, 3% can be practical, but you'd still need 170ml of a single 250ml bottle for one 10L tank (more like a bucket) of nutes.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 21, 2008)

psyclone said:


> I would like to ditch it to save £'s, but the two plants it primarily shines on are so outdoing the others it would feel wrong for now-also my mainlight is 250watt hps and is small for the area-the UV tanning block helps to fill the 1metre space (running 6hours a day). I know you are right, but I will finish this grow before re-jigging lights- I have ordered 4 full spectrum 28 watt LED growlights to play with.


man, you're a glutton for punishment, aren't you?

The UV is wasting your £'s now and the LEDs will be wasting them later. 



> Is your crop now on continual harvest? They look very fine.


yep, 8 years now, I think.


----------



## We TaRdED (Feb 21, 2008)

can i be your protege ABF?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 21, 2008)

On the hybrid MH/HPS lamp- I think it is a wonderful thing, if you are going to use the same lamp to veg and flower. No more switching to a HPS from MH when switching from veg to flower. However, such combinations for convenience are often compromises. 

There won't be any advantage to the combination lamp for ppl who only need a light for flowering. Flowering areas are intended to replicate a day in late autumn, perpetually. As days shorten in nature as the season progresses to winter, the sun rises progressively lower in the sky, causing sunlight to travel through a greater thickness of atmosphere than in summer. This long path through the atmosphere filters more blue light and renders the late autumn sunlight decidedly yellowy or golden in temperate latitudes. The red-yellow spectrum of HPS quite closely mimics late autumn sunlight, encouraging flowering as the plant prepares for the impending winter... that never comes.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 21, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> can i be your protege ABF?


Could you be my RX-8 instead?


----------



## We TaRdED (Feb 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Could you be my RX-8 instead?


lmfao..... very funny....


----------



## vandango (Feb 22, 2008)

I cloned all of my plants to see ther sex. I am cloning in an ez clone setup. after the clones took root I started to force flowering 12/12 . after about a week I planted clones into soil it has now been about 17 days, i have two hermies and two males so far out of about 20 clones, the others have yet to show gender, i expected a little stress when i transplanted after i started to flower but could this be causing them to turn hermie? If so if I caused this by stress of the clones, could the mother plant i took the clones from be female or if the clones are hermie should i discard the parent plant immidiatly? Also in the future should i allow for 2 weeks of veg. state after i transplant the clones from ez clone set up to soil/pots? Pleas help this is really bothering me!!!!!


----------



## cmak40 (Feb 22, 2008)

question about ur nute supply? couldnt find specific answer in thread. basically im copying ur setup what nutes and how much in each cycle do you give you plants? i noticed you have large enuf res not to reup the mixture so just the beginning mix at the beginng of every 2 week cycle is what i want to know?


----------



## psyclone (Feb 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> man, you're a glutton for punishment, aren't you?
> 
> The UV is wasting your £'s now and the LEDs will be wasting them later.
> 
> ...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 23, 2008)

vandango said:


> I cloned all of my plants to see ther sex. I am cloning in an ez clone setup. after the clones took root I started to force flowering 12/12 . after about a week I planted clones into soil it has now been about 17 days, i have two hermies and two males so far out of about 20 clones, the others have yet to show gender, i expected a little stress when i transplanted after i started to flower but could this be causing them to turn hermie? If so if I caused this by stress of the clones, could the mother plant i took the clones from be female or if the clones are hermie should i discard the parent plant immidiatly? Also in the future should i allow for 2 weeks of veg. state after i transplant the clones from ez clone set up to soil/pots? Pleas help this is really bothering me!!!!!


I've never seen cloning, even very badly done, cause hermaphrodism. I'd bet the source plant is hermie or male. For confirmation, do another cutting or three from the suspect plants, keep the suspects vegging for now. Can't do any harm unless they're flowering. Just prune them back if they are getting in your way. Keep your cuttings' media damp, not wet and see where you are in 10 days or so, bit longer without a heatmat and in soil, shouldn't be much more than 12-14 days, tho. Trash the earlier cuttings you now know are male or herm. Most likely, the donor plants are male or herm and are compost candidates, but doing another pass of cuttings will make you fully sure. 

If you are getting at least 50% female, you're doing spot on the average. Better than that is a bonus.

No need at all to veg clones before flowering them. Mums and clones are kept under 24/7 light except for the first day or so after clones are cut, when I run the clonebox light 18/6, with the first 6h in the dark after cutting to minimiise wilt. 



cmak40 said:


> question about ur nute supply? couldnt find specific answer in thread. basically im copying ur setup what nutes and how much in each cycle do you give you plants? i noticed you have large enuf res not to reup the mixture so just the beginning mix at the beginng of every 2 week cycle is what i want to know?


Each 125L tank in the flowering area is dumped, cleaned and remixed every 14 days or so. All tanks run Canna Flores 1400ppm @ pH5.5-5.8. Your results my vary, but my tapwater is usually around pH7.1 and each 125L tank takes 400ml of each part A & B to yield that strength. Tank 3 gets Canna PK1314 @ 0.5ml/litre (about 60ml) when the plants it serves are in wk 5. All tanks get H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L (125ml per tank) on mixing and every 3-4 days after when topping up the tanks. Each tank requires about 20ml pHDown on mixing and about 10ml on top-up in about a week. 

I don't think I've mentioned it before, but in case you don't know it, there *is* a particular way to mix a tank of sauce. You must not let full strength multipart nutrient concentrates mix before they are diluted in a large volume of water. The full-strength mixes will react and nutrients will literally fall out of solution. This is why they are packaged in 2 or 3 parts. I fill my tanks with water halfway or more, then add nute mix part A or B, manually mix that in a bit before adding the other part. Filling the remainder of the tank volume using a garden hose mixes everything up very well. 

Don't add more concentrated nute mix in the midst of a 2-week life of a tank of nutes. Top up with plain water only and correct pH as needed. These solutions are engineered so the nutes will last 2 weeks and still have enough of each element and, quite importantly, in the proper ratio to one another. If you start adding nute mix in mid tank-life, you stand a good chance of changing the ratio of the individual N, P, K and other elements in the mix. 



psyclone said:


> The thumbnail is a 250 watt replacement light that uses 28 watts.


JUST one question: Do you want to do field R&D for a seller of horticultural goods whom you already think overstates their case... or do you want to grow some fuckin' _*dope?*_


----------



## psyclone (Feb 23, 2008)

Ah. Good point.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 23, 2008)

psy, I don't mean to be a naysaying curmudgeon, but it's really that easy to make up your mind what to do with recent growing technologies. Not all of them are bad by any stretch of the imagination (else I would not be using cooltubes and Fytocell), but some are risky strategies that will prove or disprove some very interesting technological points... and some of them actually grow dope. 

HPS. Hydroponics. Bam, you get smoke! 

Use what is known to work, esp when you're a noob. Nothing kills the incentive of new growers like failing and using unproven methods or equipment is a quick way to failure.


----------



## psyclone (Feb 23, 2008)

I won't throw away the envirolite..Do I go with what I have and add LED, or upgrade to 600 watts? that is the choice, sadly, it's either or..Dope, and more of it is the required result.
And I do not think you a nay-saying curmudgeon, I value your thoughts, that is, after all why I am here.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 23, 2008)

Scrap the idea of LEDs. The technology just is not there yet. You'd chase your tail as a new grower trying to figure out why things won't work and be very disappointed at the results from LEDs, compared to a decent HPS light. The HPS would probably cost a good bit less to buy.

A 400HPS will keep most smokers permanently supplied. You can use a 600 if you like, though. 

I don't know what an Envirolite is. Is that a fluoro?


----------



## psyclone (Feb 23, 2008)

It's a Brand name, combined bulb HPS/MH -mine is 250 watts, and i think it may struggle to satisfy my appetite- unles I can pull 8 oz's from my tent in 10 days time!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2008)

wait- you smoke 8 oz every 10 days?  I'm sure I have that wrong!

I reckon a 400 would raise about 6-8 SoG trimmed plants, each yielding 1/2-1oz (depending on your proficiency at keeping room temps and RH correct). If you did that on a rotating basis, 2 plants in and out every 2 weeks, you'd have somewhere between 1-2oz coming out every 2 weeks. The 250 will raise about half that plant count and about half the yield of a 400.

Will that come anywhere close to working for you?


----------



## psyclone (Feb 24, 2008)

I am growing 16 single stem plants in 1metre sq this go, aiming for 1/2 oz per stem cropping in 10 days time, and hoping that will last until the next crop and the outdoor season so I have a cycle going. There are some pics in my gallery taken 2 weeks ago, what do you think? They have thickened up considerable since then.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2008)

Looks like about 3 weeks into flowering. You have some serious elongation of some plants. Room temp too high? 

Take the tanning lamp back to the salon, your plants are bronzed enough.  There are water lilies in dire need of that marine photosynthesis bulb, too, I'd think.


----------



## psyclone (Feb 24, 2008)

Tallest plant is 24" under tanning light -the pics are old. It's very good looking at the moment. The rest are15" or so- I will try and take a pic this morning. Temps are difficult, my garage is cold, I use a thermostat fan heater to help.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm not talking about the overall height, I'm talking about elongation of the plant between the nodes. There's a lot of distance between each node point on some of the plants. That's normally indicative of high air temps, wonder how it happened in your case with the garage being so cold. What does your peak-memory thermometer say? You _*DO*_ have one, don't you?


----------



## 29menace (Feb 24, 2008)

that is what im planning for my next grow. ide like to have bud every 2 wks and have already taken my cuttings and will make a start when my current grow is over in say 5 wks..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 25, 2008)

psy, it's either excessive air temp or radiant heat from that silly tanning light that's causing the stretch in the tall plant. T'ain't natcheral, son. Get it out of there. 

Back to my op for a minute... Cooltubes are still working like a champ, pinning the room temp between 23.0 - 24.5C, except for one _*weird*_ glitch. 

A couple days ago, I checked my peak mem thermos. There are 2 in this room, just to be sure. One is an indoor/outdoor type, which measures air temp in the immediate vicinity of the thermo; it also has a remote 'outdoor' sensor, which I have put in the cooltube exhaust duct so I can monitor that the cooling system is working correctly. The cooltube EGT is usually about 32-33C with an air intake temp of about 20-21C. 

Scarily, I had a big room air temp spike the other day. One of the thermos recorded a flowering room air temp peak of 29.5C and the other 27.5C! Amazing, considering ambient air available to be drawn into the op was at a cool 21C. 

For temps to spike as high as 27-29.5C, my main exhaust blower or entire room air ventilation system would have to have failed for an entire lights on period... and I am fairly confident all the ventilation blowers are OK. The main vent thermostat seems to be switching stuff on and off OK, to the best of my knowledge. I have checked and rechecked all the connections in the ventilation system electrics and all looks OK. This really is a bit of a mystery to me. 

If the main ventilation system is working and the cooltubes are being ventilated normally, the room will be right between 23.0 & 24.5. Cooltube EGT will be about 32-33. 

29.5 is seriously hot and would cause plant damage or stretchy buds.

It's been OK for a couple of days now, not deviating from the 23-24.5 range, lights on or off... I'll keep watching it tho... something's amiss- and it may just be highly intermittent and hard to identify.


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 25, 2008)

Hey Al I love the op you have goin on right now...do you think think this could be successfully implemented on a smaller scale in a stealth grow...I'm thinking about doing a cab grow maybe with ScrOG...do you think it would be possible to harvest every 2 weeks with ScrOG in a cab?


----------



## psyclone (Feb 25, 2008)

The buds furthest from the UV ARE altogether thicker and denser. You could be right, Pa. I shall knock it off.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 25, 2008)

sportsguy1598 said:


> Hey Al I love the op you have goin on right now...do you think think this could be successfully implemented on a smaller scale in a stealth grow...I'm thinking about doing a cab grow maybe with ScrOG...do you think it would be possible to harvest every 2 weeks with ScrOG in a cab?


ScrOG requires vegging of the plants to be flowered and each plant would have to have their own screen as they will mature at different times. 

Far too fiddly... and I don't want to devote any valuable lighted plant floorspace to vegging plants which will be flowered. Lighted space is even more valuable in a stealth cabinet grow. All that in mind, I would not recommend ScrOG for a rotating output op. 

All you need for a SoG rotating harvest is space to veg 1-2 mums, root your clones and flower a minimum of 4 plants. 



psyclone said:


> The buds furthest from the UV ARE altogether thicker and denser. You could be right, Pa. I shall knock it off.


Get a pk mem thermo/hygro in there, too. You need to know what's going on in your absence.


----------



## psyclone (Feb 26, 2008)

This records temps etc at pre-fixed times? I hope there will be a couple of pics of the least UV treated plants attached


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2008)

pk mem thermo/hygros continuously monitor the temp and RH. They simply record the highest and lowest figures in memory. You manually clear the memories as desired with a reset button. The time period of recording depends on the manual reset interval.


----------



## MFG STICHMOUTH (Feb 26, 2008)

thats great what would you recommend for somthing a bit smaller i have 12 about 6days old right now
how much is your electric bill runnin thats my biggest concern right now


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 26, 2008)

Al good to see that I'm not the only insomniac up at this hour...I think I'm gonna go with your continuous grow method for my first endeavor before I get in over my head with a ScrOG grow...do you have any recommendations as to how many plants i could fit in a decent size cabinet...i mean is there a good plant to sq.ft. ratio? and/or what size cabinet do you think would be optimal for this type of grow? Sorry for so many questions...thanks so much for your help!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2008)

MFG STICHMOUTH said:


> how much is your electric bill runnin thats my biggest concern right now


Well, I'd be lying if I said that running a 400HPS 24/7 and a pair of 1000s for 12h/day was insignificant on my bill. With all the goods running, my op pulls about 3500W. It's a couple hundred bucks a month, easy. However, I'm getting about 2.5-3lb/mo for that investment. Kinda offsets it.  The electric bill is paid in full on the due date every single time. To the pwr co, I'm just a good customer. 



sportsguy1598 said:


> Al good to see that I'm not the only insomniac up at this hour...I think I'm gonna go with your continuous grow method for my first endeavor before I get in over my head with a ScrOG grow...do you have any recommendations as to how many plants i could fit in a decent size cabinet...i mean is there a good plant to sq.ft. ratio? and/or what size cabinet do you think would be optimal for this type of grow? Sorry for so many questions...thanks so much for your help!


My clocks run at GMT +10 hours, so it may not be as late here as it was for you. That's the bewdy of msg boards, eh. 

ScrOG is art when done well and there's a lot of bragging rights in it, I suppose, but it's not the best method for pumping buds out of a grow op at a great rate. If you are putting as many plants into an op every 2 weeks as I am, training plants around screens would be a full-time pain in the arse. ScrOG is best for low-plant count ops that mainly just supply the grower with smoke. You can stand back and admire how pretty well-done ScrOGs are... but you won't pull poundage out of a ScrOG on a regular basis, at least not without pulling a fair amount of your hair out as well. 

You can SoG in 6" dia pots, allowing 4 plants per sq ft, presuming SoG pruning techniques are applied (remove branching on lower 1/3 of plant in ends of wks 1 & 3 of flowering) to prevent crowding. SoG ops need a lot of air circ- a couple of oscillating circ fans for every 6-12 sq ft are needed, as well as a lot of air pumped through the op by the ventilation system. 

Grow cabinets benefit massively from cooltubes. Heat removal is a big problem in cabinet grows. You could run a cooltubed 250 in a roughly refrigerator sized cabinet (~4sq ft floorspace) to grow 14-16 SoG pruned plants. Double that floorspace and use a 400 HPS in a cooltube for about 2x the buds.


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 26, 2008)

Oh ok so we have an Aussie around here do we? anyway Al thanks that was exactly the info i was looking for...i could prolly yeild around 4 ounces per harvest if i had 16 plants in the rotation correct?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2008)

sportsguy1598 said:


> Oh ok so we have an Aussie around here do we?


Bloody fuckin' oath, mate.  Cooee, cobber. Strewth!

I know a few other Orstrayan words, too. 



sportsguy1598 said:


> anyway Al thanks that was exactly the info i was looking for...i could prolly yeild around 4 ounces per harvest if i had 16 plants in the rotation correct?


Cool. 

Under a 250, 1/4z per sounds like a reasonable estimate for a new-to-newish grower with a brand-new op. 4z per 16 plants sounds do-able and should improve when all parameters are tweaked in, as you gain experience running the op. However, you'll be pulling out just 4 plants at a time in a 2-week rotation system. 

Smart new growers build their ops long before sprouting beans and test-run them for a week or so to get an idea of how close to right the temps will run (24-26C is good). You can simulate the humidity introduced into the room air from plants by hanging a towel up (somehow, you'll work it out) with one end dipping in a bucket of water. The towel should be under the light to force rapid evaporation of water from the towel. As water evaporates off the towel, it will wick up more water. One towel should act like 4-6 SoG plants. 

My op uses about 15-20 litres of water per day across all 4 flowering tanks and the mother system tank. I get about 10 litres per day of that back with the dehumidifier. Free distilled water, yay!  That goes right back into the tanks, of course.


----------



## Smitty750 (Feb 26, 2008)

this setup is awesome


----------



## MFG STICHMOUTH (Feb 26, 2008)

so you have a "grow room" for the mothers and one for the clones then straight to flowering right?how long are the clones chilling be they go to flower?


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 26, 2008)

So I have no idea what you said in "Orstrayan" haa...anyway would upgrading to a 400W increase the harvest by a noticeable amount or is it not worth it?


----------



## SaRaNaC (Feb 26, 2008)

Hi Al, i know you are using 8 inch pots but i dunno how you fit 23 of them in a 3x3 table. i have a 18" by 24" table in a closet grow that i am using now and i want to get away from the 6"x6" rockwool cubes and go to fytocell. I would like to know the diameter of your pots. how may do you think i can fit in a 18"x24" tray under a 600w hps? Later man.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2008)

Smitty750 said:


> this setup is awesome


 Thanks. 



MFG STICHMOUTH said:


> so you have a "grow room" for the mothers and one for the clones then straight to flowering right?how long are the clones chilling be they go to flower?


 That's right. I have a roughly 1.5'W x 5'L x 7'H "room" (more like a cupboard!) housing my mums under 24/7 400HPS light. They are in a flood tray which is about 1' x 4'. The floorspace is only slightly larger than the tray to permit placement of an oscillating fan in the area and allow for some air circ. The mother zone has its own thermostat and 150mm axial exhaust fan. Intake is passive. 

An area this small with that big of a light in it is hard to keep cool; in summer, the tstat keeps the fan running almost all the time to keep temps at or below 26C, even when intake air is 20-21C. A cooltube would be great in here but there's simply no room for one. I might someday modify the existing micro reflector so it can be air-cooled. However, the mother plants don't seem to care too much. Vegging plants are somewhat more tolerant of excess heat and RH (to a point, of course) than are flowering plants. 

The clones spend about 14 days in the clonebox, though they set root in 7 days, with most copies having fairly profuse root formation by day 10. My last batch has popped first tap roots in 6 days.  Must be doing something right. 



sportsguy1598 said:


> So I have no idea what you said in "Orstrayan" haa...anyway would upgrading to a 400W increase the harvest by a noticeable amount or is it not worth it?


That's OK, I don't know what I said either. Just something out of the 'Australian for tourists' book I was given by one very kind Aussie. Says here that the phrase is supposed to be a polite way to invite your boss's wife to get naked and dance on your desk, which apparently is an Australian custom- or so it says in this tourists' book. It'd have to be true, wouldn't it? 

A 400 used in the same floorspace as a 250 will give you bigger, denser buds further down from the tops than a 250. You will get more yield from the same number of plants you housed under a 250, but a 400 can really do quite a few more plants with decent quality. If you're only growing for yourself, try the 250 first, you'll probably get what you need and save $ on power. 



SaRaNaC said:


> Hi Al, i know you are using 8 inch pots but i dunno how you fit 23 of them in a 3x3 table.


Here's 24 in an 820mm^2 tray, though I usually only put in 23. You can see that they don't sit flat on the tray when there's 24 wedged in:


----------



## GoodFriend (Feb 26, 2008)

perlite?


any take on wick cloners? i'm digging the perlite for my medium and my bubble cloner hasn't been the best root producer... and i really need to be able to push these clones faster...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2008)

Wick cloners would seem not to be able to use heat mats, _n'est ce pas?

_A heat mat really speeds things along. 

The upside to a wick cloner is that the moisture is somewhat automatically managed- but if it's too wet, there's not much you can do about it.

I'd rather water my clones by hand and use RW cubes. Cubes sit flat on a heat mat and thus heat is easily transferred into them and you water them one at a time and can feel the amount of water in them by heft. You can measure 10-15ml of water by syringe into RW cubes, 2x/day at 12h intervals, but I've learned to water by feel after all these years doing 30 cuttings every 2 weeks. 







I just dip one corner of the cube in a bucket of pH 5.5-5.8 water for about 1/2 to 1 second, if it only needs a small amt of water. If too light (dry), I put the lower 1/3 of the cube in the watering soln and leave it for about 3 sec. Excess water is easily removed with a flick of the wrist. Cubes must always only be damp, never wet or saturated. Overwet media causes slow rooting every time and stem rot usually comes with it.


----------



## cmak40 (Feb 27, 2008)

quik ? bout ur res. they are 125 l or they are 125l of liquid in say a 150l res?


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 27, 2008)

Haha thanks for the Aussie lesson Al I'll be sure to try it out next time I go "down under"...but more importantly thanks for the info...I may just go ahead and go with the 400 just so there is enough bud to go around screw the electricity cause as far as I know you can't get stoned off of that!


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 27, 2008)

Also, Do you think that SoG will maximize my small area or would just letting the plants grow outright work well too? What if I decide not to do the continuous harvest (because i may be away from time to time and do not trust my substitute caretaker to harvest for me) Do you think I could still get a sizable yield out of just a normal grow such as the one in GK's book (which I just got in the mail and finished reading) so that it will not be too complicated for my substitute) but in a cabinet instead of an open space like he does or would it be worth it to stick to your continuous harvest?

PS sorry if I rambled a bit I keep getting carried away with my questions


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> quik ? bout ur res. they are 125 l or they are 125l of liquid in say a 150l res?


125L in a 125L tank. 



sportsguy1598 said:


> Haha thanks for the Aussie lesson Al I'll be sure to try it out next time I go "down under"...but more importantly thanks for the info...I may just go ahead and go with the 400 just so there is enough bud to go around screw the electricity cause as far as I know you can't get stoned off of that!


Dope will get you through times of no electricity better than electricity will get you through times of no dope.  _(with apologies to Freewheelin' Franklin)_


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2008)

sportsguy1598 said:


> Also, Do you think that SoG will maximize my small area


yep



sportsguy1598 said:


> or would just letting the plants grow outright work well too?


nope. Plants will crowd, you'll get powdery mildew and other probs from poor air circ. You'll get less than if the plants are properly pruned. 

Sorry, but growing weed is something which requires daily attention. I haven't had a holiday in about 7 years.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> perlite?


nope- Fytocell.


----------



## SaRaNaC (Feb 27, 2008)

Al can you do me a favor and take a picture of the bottom of your pots i wanna see if I need to make bigger holes before i switch to pots from RW. Also how wide are those pots in cm?


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 27, 2008)

Yeah i know it requires constant attention but I have no way to explain to my family why I'm skipping coming home for holidays...i figure its better to work with what i have then not grow at all...I might just start off really small until i get a better hang on my schedule and such


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2008)

SaRaNaC said:


> Al can you do me a favor and take a picture of the bottom of your pots i wanna see if I need to make bigger holes before i switch to pots from RW. Also how wide are those pots in cm?


Pots have "175mm" moulded on the bottom. Each pot has about half a dozen 8-10mm holes in the bottom. These are ultra-common, dirt cheap, black plastic pots as found in discount shops everywhere. Nothing fancy here. About 20-50c each depending where you shop. Chinese dollar shops are a likely candidate for the very cheapest. 

Your local garden shop probably has a stack of plastic pots they want to get rid of. Ask, you might get a few dozen for free. Rinse off any loose soil, wash them with a bristle brush in soapy water with 10% bleach and the plants won't know them from new. 



sportsguy1598 said:


> Yeah i know it requires constant attention but I have no way to explain to my family why I'm skipping coming home for holidays...i figure its better to work with what i have then not grow at all...I might just start off really small until i get a better hang on my schedule and such


You can't do a grow if you are going to have multi-week gaps in the care of the system, sorry. May not be the time of life for you to grow just now.


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 28, 2008)

question for u.
we were thinking of building a drip system for some plants. we have some experience with drip system.
what we did is a round ring with 5 holes in it so it doesnt really drip but pour out. to each pot
now what we found with this is, 
1 we used hydrotone only so water runs right out. & made roots just grow right out the bottom of buckets as if they were looking for water. & 2ft tall only
2 doesnt seem to cover the whole bucket area with water like our flood system does.5 ft monsters with the flood & only little tips poked out bottom of buckets.

now wondering about this flytocell u are using. does it hold some water in so it would help with the water distribution & slow down the roots from shooting out the bottom. thinking of mixing it with hydrotone cause we want to reuse some of the media. & its safer
i would assume the roots grow right through the flytocell being if it takes in water. so we only have to change out the flytocell & the hydrotone will be reused.
say 30-40% flytocell & the rest hydrotone.
what would your poinion be & advice.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2008)

Hydroton (no 'e') branded clay pellets are lovely things, until you try to re-use them. They're damn near impossible to clean completely free of old root matter and crusted nutrient salts. Drop a handful and you will chase them around the room and crunch them underfoot. 

As you found, pellets don't hold much (if any) water, requiring frequent (hourly or more) flooding or a constant drip, as you used. Your roots escaped your pots because they had a constant flow of nutrient solution to follow. 

Pellets will not be good for mixing with Fytocell. One wants watering near constantly, one wants watering only a couple of times per day. If you flood often enough to keep pellets wet enough to encourage root formation, the Fytocell will be kept too wet. Pellets won't keep crumbs of Fytocell escaping the pots, either. 

If you want to use Fytocell, pack about 25-50mm of RW floc in the bottoms of your pots, just enough to block up all the pot drain holes (don't worry, water will get right through). This will keep the Fytocell in the pots and also add enough water weight (due to the absorbency of the small amt of floc in the bottom of the pots) to keep them from floating, as the high air content of Fytocell makes it buoyant. 

Any constantly irrigated system will encourage roots to escape pots because there's always a flow of nute soln to follow. If you use an absorbent medium like Fytocell or floc, the roots will stay in the pots as you will only be watering 2x a day at best, meaning there's plenty of moisture inside the pots but extended periods of dryness outside them. This will 'air prune' the roots, keeping them mostly within the pots. As the roots encounter conditions too dry for them, they will stop reaching out of the pots.

I don't like drip systems because drippers clog with nute salts and need cleaning at least every other day (if not daily) and watering from the top keeps the media tops nearly constantly wet, encouraging icky (but mostly harmless) algae growth. Flooding the pots from the bottom keeps the top of the media dryer- you will note very little if any algae on my plants' pots of media due to watering from the bottom by flood.


----------



## southfloridasean (Feb 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Cooltubes sorted. Mostly.  The stuff is up but duct taped. I need to go buy some big honkin' hoseclamps to suit all the 150mm connections. Works, tho, for now.
> 
> Testing in mockup on the garage floor with 21C ambient intake air indicated that exhaust temp from the first lamp is 28.8C, a 7.7C rise. This is an optimal figure, with only one lamp in line and no bends. I expect more rise in practise when installed. Some bends and squishing of the duct are necessary to make it fit.
> 
> ...


Hey Al how did you attach the cool tubes to the adjust a wing reflectors?


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 28, 2008)

well unforunatly we will have to use a drip system of some sort cause the plants will be on a stadium setup. i would luv 2 due a flood system that way cause we luv it but cant figure a way how 2 due it.. due u, lol
was thinking this..
if i put less drain holes in the bottom of the top bucket & put rw floc a the bottom as well that might allow the water level 2 build up as long as i can put water in faster than it will drain out. will have 2 due test runs so i know it doesn't overflow before the pump system shuts off, what u think?
we dont use actual drip nosles we have 1/8in id line that we just run straight water out of & we water 4 times a day 30min as of right now but still trying to figure out details.

also we will have some plants so we will need something that doesnt waist alot of medium so using the hydrtone seems the best reusable part. ive reused it twice already. what ever doesnt fall out off the roots with a few good shakes gets tossed then we clean it real good. its a little process but it works & is low key this way


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 28, 2008)

aslo we got 2 gal buckets right now just a few, for a sog system isnt 1gal buckets enought


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2008)

southfloridasean said:


> Hey Al how did you attach the cool tubes to the adjust a wing reflectors?


The cooltubes each have two heavy-duty screweyes (probably M3) for hanging. I removed the existing slipper mount sockets from the batwings, drilled two holes through the reflectors to suit the holes in the cooltubes and used the provided screweyes to fix the tubes to the refs. Spacing of the lamp tube to the reflector is similar to how I had the previous slipper mount set up.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> well unforunatly we will have to use a drip system of some sort cause the plants will be on a stadium setup.
> 
> mmm, ok
> 
> ...


----------



## southfloridasean (Feb 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The cooltubes each have two heavy-duty screweyes (probably M3) for hanging. I removed the existing slipper mount sockets from the batwings, drilled two holes through the reflectors to suit the holes in the cooltubes and used the provided screweyes to fix the tubes to the refs. Spacing of the lamp tube to the reflector is similar to how I had the previous slipper mount set up.


Thanks Al.


----------



## Chucksince1988 (Feb 28, 2008)

Hey guys, .... I got a plant about 5 inches tall .... all that I used was sunlight and water .... is this going to be enough to produce bud ? If soo .... how many hours of sunlight and daylight should I give it. I already applied top quality osmocote to my bud it's time released and will not burn it like other fertilizers may. I't started w/curiousity .... then a couple of my buddies that have grown a couple of plants said that mine is growing very rapid .... that If it's a female which I do not know yet .... then he said I can get it to bud in about 2 more months .... it's this true? Or better yet even possible to get a harvest that quick .... I dont sell I just wanna smoke


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2008)

Chuck, you need to hit the GrowFAQ and learn about the life cycle of cannabis. 

Osmocote is a *definite no-no* for cannabis. Because it is time-released, if you have overfertilised (and it's just as easy to overfertilise with Osmocote as anything else), it is nearly impossible to leach (rinse) it out of the soil. Moreover, if the plant will be vegged and later flowered, the fertiliser type will change when flowering, requiring leaching of the veg ferts from the soil at changeover time. If you have put Osmocote in your soil, the only way to get all of it out is to drop the pot into a bucket of water, gently pull the rootmass out of the pot and work all the soil out into the water. Repot in fresh potting soil, water well with no ferts given for about 14 days. Resume regular fertilising, once a week, with a water soluble high N fert for veg and high P for flowering. 

Keep in mind that this is the hydroponics section of the RIU board; I won't spend much time discussing soil grows here. 

If you don't know the light cycles which induce flowering vs vegging and the meaning of terms like "NPK," go to the FAQ. You need to know all that stuff before you start any grow.


----------



## trenton (Feb 28, 2008)

Hey Al B. Fuct I tried to PM you but I guess I can't. I have just started my flood and drain hydro setup. I have a 4x8 white flood table and a 100 gallon resevoir undernieth. My plants are in 4 inch rockwool cubes that sit on top of a 4x8 sheet of coco mat. The plants were originaly rooted in 2 inch strofoamy cubes then placed into the 4 inch rock wool cubes. Within a week the plants grew approx 10 inches and roots are coming out the bottom of the rockwool and into the mat. I have watered once a day using flora nova 1 part grow. The plants look great and are greener than ever but my question is the leaves especially on the top are droopy. When watering time comes i notice that the cubes are little moist on top but if I pick it up and gently squeeze I can littleraly ring water out the bottom. Is every 24 hourrs probably to often. Should I maybe water once every 1.5-2 day?? I would really hate to see my plants die due to overwatering. I just started my thread today called Trentons gone hydro crazy grow journal. Everyones comment on there says to ask you so here I am. Thanks for everything.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2008)

trenton, I think you have it sussed out. Cut the watering back to about half what you're giving now. Other signs of overwatering are yellowing leaves, usually from the bottom up and generally slow growth.


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Feb 28, 2008)

Al, I completely understand what you're saying...but I'm not talking about week long gaps just a couple days...also a guy who is living in my house next year is gonna go in on the op with me so as long as I prepare him well I think we should be ok! That being said, I think that your total devotion to marijuana growing is inspiring and I really appreciate all your advice!


----------



## trenton (Feb 28, 2008)

AL B. Fuct sorry one more question. What do you mean by cutting the water back to half of what Im using now. Do you mean to water every other day, or to still water every 24 hours but to fill the table only half as much. Thanks


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Not without some very fancy custom made flood trays.
> next paragraph.
> 
> Sorry, I'm having trouble picturing what you want to do from your description. What top bucket?


what i mean is a bucket inside a bucket. the lower bucket has the 1 big drain line going to the res. 
the top bucket has the plant witha few holes in the bottom draining into the lower, so cut a few holes pack the r/w at he bottom & maybe it wont drain faster than it fills up making a flood effect but it actually be a line just pouring from the top into the bucket, get it now. lol

aslo we use a 50gal res & keep about 3-5gal per plant, so we know what u mean on res size went throught that already.
way easier to have more water than be cheap. also we use the water for 2 weeks & just do a nut/water top off after week 1


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 29, 2008)

sportsguy1598 said:


> Al, I completely understand what you're saying...but I'm not talking about week long gaps just a couple days...also a guy who is living in my house next year is gonna go in on the op with me so as long as I prepare him well I think we should be ok! That being said, I think that your total devotion to marijuana growing is inspiring and I really appreciate all your advice!


Thanks for the praise. 

Sorry, I have misunderstood you; thought for a moment you might be at uni and have a grow going in a dorm room or something mad like that. Will tell you someday about this uni student I knew who thot it would be OK to just put his plants in a bar fridge while he was off on xmas & spring breaks... 

To give competent instructions to a plantsitter, first, know your system inside-out and backwards and second, foolproof it. Don't make it easy for your assistant to make errors. Keep instructions as short & sweet as possible and insist that they are followed to the letter with no independent modifications or additions to your plans. 

My very earliest grows were (intended to be) cooperative efforts- but the partners (and anyone who knows about your op may try to situate themselves as a 'partner') were problem #1. If they didn't want to do mad shit like I send up in 'How Not To Grow Dope,' they wanted unreasonable shares of the grow op's output. 

One clown lent me a 400HPS for about 6 weeks to raise mums- and he thought that was worth 50% the op's production- in perpetuity- despite me providing *everything* else, including the actual op's location, power, water, a pair of 1000HPS, all the watering system bits and daily maintenance. When I balked, this asswipe threatened to dob me in. FYI, I don't cow to threats very easily. Without any comment at all, I shut down the op, ran all the plant matter over with a lawnmower and left the mulch- and his light- on his back step. Never spoke to the guy again. Hope he was happy- he got 100% of the op's output.. and about 10% of my lawn. Can't say I'm not generous. 



trenton said:


> AL B. Fuct sorry one more question. What do you mean by cutting the water back to half of what Im using now. Do you mean to water every other day, or to still water every 24 hours but to fill the table only half as much. Thanks


Try every other day first. Should do it. If the plants consume more than 50% of their water (measure by weight) between every-other-day waterings, resume watering daily but cut the timer's ontime down to only enough time to flood only the bottom 1/2" of the media before the pump is shut off. As plants get larger, they will want more water. If you can, segregate larger and smaller plants from one another and adjust the watering interval accordingly. This was one of the considerations I applied when deciding to use 4 individual flood systems instead of a pair of 4x8' trays and two really big tanks. It's easier to tailor nutes and watering to individual 2-week phases of flowering and get it closer to right on average for all plants. 



infamouse21 said:


> what i mean is a bucket inside a bucket. the lower bucket has the 1 big drain line going to the res.
> the top bucket has the plant witha few holes in the bottom draining into the lower, so cut a few holes pack the r/w at he bottom & maybe it wont drain faster than it fills up making a flood effect but it actually be a line just pouring from the top into the bucket, get it now. lol
> 
> aslo we use a 50gal res & keep about 3-5gal per plant, so we know what u mean on res size went throught that already.
> way easier to have more water than be cheap.


oh, OK, I sorta see what you're doing. 

I like the watering ring you used the first time, but I can see how a pot of pellets would drain just as fast as it was being watered and not all the pellets would get wet because there's little wicking action in clay pellets- any pellets not right below the drip ring were not getting watered. Were you running that drip continuously? Did you have constant aeration in the nute soln? If so, that should have been sufficient to cause the roots to thread though the pellets in time. Once the roots fanned out, they should have been getting plenty of nute soln. 



> also we use the water for 2 weeks & just do a nut/water top off after week 1


When you top off the nuts, do you use cashews or pistachios? 

Seriously, don't monkey around with adding more nutrient concentrate to your tanks between dumps. Trying to jockey the nutrient strength so it remains the same between dumps will very likely throw out the proper RATIO of N, P, K and other elements in the nute mix, inviting nutrient burn and perhaps not being quite correct for the phase of growth you're supporting. 

Nutrient concentrate mixes are engineered to provide not only adequate concentration of the individual elements for the life of a tank of sauce, but do so in the correct ratio to one another. As you know, the ratio of P to N & K will be higher in flowering nutes; there will be more N by proportion in veg nutes. Let's suppose for a moment that your flowering nutes are 10-20-10. That's 1 part N, 2 parts P and 1 part K, relative to one another. Let's also suppose your plants eat 1/4 the N, 1/2 of the P and 1/3 of the K in a week. Then you jump in and add more nutes- but your nute meter reads by overall conductivity of the total dissolved salts in the soln. It does not tell you how much INDIVIDUAL N, P & K are in the soln. You _*can't*_ know what the existing ratios are after a week's use of the tank of sauce, nor exactly how much of each element is present, just using a common ppm meter. These only can give you an idea of the total conductivity of the solution. When you add more nute concentrate, you're adding N, P, K and everything else all at once, in their full proportion- which would be fine if you were adding to plain water, instead of a half-eaten tank of nutes. 

Now- if you happen to have a mass spectrometer, a hugely expensive piece of laboratory equipment, which _*can*_ divine the actual concentration of EACH element in the mixed tank of nutes- _*and*_ you have individual jugs of N, P, K (and all the other stuff) lying around, you WILL be able to monitor your solutions and correct for what the plants have eaten. 

Unfortunately, if all you can measure is total dissolved salts (TDS) and all you can add to replace eaten nutes is the complete nute concentrate with all elements included, despite being able to bring the TDS ppm back up exactly to the target ppm, you will throw the ratios out of whack. 

Your tanks should be sufficiently large that the TDS ppm stays close to your target figure through a 2 week life of a tank of sauce or at least stays above about 60-70% by day 14 with a top up with plain water on day 7 of the tank life, without adding any more nute concentrate. If the ppm falls below 50% by day 14, think about bigger tanks.


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 29, 2008)

well weve only added nuts nuts 2wice due to dramatic ppm drop. other than that we just use water if the ppm stays consistant. dont know what u said in all that a little much...
but does the double bucket deal with the r/w in the bottom of top bucket & hydroton on top sound like it might slow water down enough , maybe 2 allow water 2 build up so it acts like a flood effect. 
i know u use r/w in the bottom of your stuff so does it slow down the drain effect. if not u might be putting it in loosly & i was thinking maybe packing it down a little.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 29, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> i know u use r/w in the bottom of your stuff so does it slow down the drain effect. if not u might be putting it in loosly & i was thinking maybe packing it down a little.


Water runs very readily through rockwool, even very tightly packed. I do pack it in very firmly to make sure my Fytocell doesn't get washed out.

Your pellets should remain damp enough throughout the pot with a constantly running (during lights on) dripper ring, but I'd probably hand water new plants in pellets once a day with a spare water pump and a hose, just to make sure short roots can still reach dampened pellets. I handwater wk1 clones even in Fytocell, as said, with a spare pump and hose, until they look like they are 'catching on' or until I see roots poking out of the pot drain holes.


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Feb 29, 2008)

DAMN!

I missed post 666!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 29, 2008)

Been watching the temps very closely in my op post the installation of the cooltubes. Aside from the one unexplained 29.5C glitch, it's been brilliant. 



Temps never wander more than about 2C, during lights-on or lights-off cycles. 



This pic is typical of a bud which has been exposed to excessive temp. Stretchy, stringy growth, low yield. This one is in wk6. Cooltubes were installed when this was in wk4. Heat damage occurred before wk 4. Growth will remain stringy but look at all the nice white calyx development. Usually when temps are too high, the calyx development slows and begins to brown off. This one may catch up a little, but I don't expect much. 



The above plant is in wk 4 now, was in wk 2 when cooltubes were put in. This one is not showing as much heat damage as the stretchy one above- this one is filling in quite nicely, thanks... and the calyx development is just MAD. 



Plants in foreground are in wk6, plants in the back are in wk4. Overall development is nearly equal, due to the installation of cooltubes. 



These are just THUNDERING along for plants at the end of wk4.. Click and look at the larger img. Wow. 

I have very high hopes for the following batches, if things are looking this good this early on after putting in the cooltubes.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Feb 29, 2008)

is that mold?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Feb 29, 2008)

Nope, just a little powdery mildew, which will be gone when I spray for it in a few days. I spray for PM every 2 weeks with lime sulfur @ 0.5ml/l in water with a couple drops of liquid dish soap in a cheap paint spray gun driven by a not so cheap air compressor.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Feb 29, 2008)

Differnces in the country, my heater is cranking and you install cool tubes. I shovel snow, you run a dehumidifier. I think I need to move. VV


----------



## infamouse21 (Feb 29, 2008)

well with the drip system we are running now we run for 30 min at a time 4 times a day. only cause the water isnt dripping out slowley, its flowing rapidly. & the plants show no signs of over or under watering. also looking at buying a e-z cloner only cause u can fit alot of clones in it & i can get the roots to grow about 3-5inches in their so when i take those out i can put them in a small r/w that is slit. then i can kinda roll the roots in a circle under the ring.


----------



## trenton (Mar 1, 2008)

Hey AL. B Fuct
In my 60 plants grow Im at 46 days of flower and I have minor powder mildew isues. I drenched all my plants with 35% Hydrogen Peroxide which I dilluted to about 3% or a little less. I sprayed it directly on the buds, leaves, and stalks. I didnt seem to hurt the plants at all and got rid of the powdery mildew. I noticed that you use Lime sulfur with dish soap and water. Do you use it late into flower if you have to? Also, do you spray it directly on the buds? How do they react? Could you possibly get bud rot from mixing water in with the lime sulfur and dish soap.? Sorry, I just want lots of answers from the pro himself..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 1, 2008)

trenton said:


> Hey AL. B Fuct
> I noticed that you use Lime sulfur with dish soap and water. Do you use it late into flower if you have to?


As late as 2 weeks before harvest. 



> Also, do you spray it directly on the buds? How do they react?


Sure. They don't seem to care, other than the PM disappearing. 



> Could you possibly get bud rot from mixing water in with the lime sulfur and dish soap.?


No. Bud rot aka grey mould or botyritis is caused by spores which settle on a hospitable host and flourish in suitable conditions. The suitable conditions usually entail poor air circ and high humidity, 70-75% or so and up. I've got an osc circ fan in every corner and a dehumidifier along with about 900CFM of ventilation flowthrough. RH stays below 70% but only barely due to my intake air often being 80-90+%. I'm lucky to get it to the low 60% area these days, but I do manage to. I never see bud rot unless there's been a failure of either the ventilation system or the dehumidifier.


----------



## CALIGROWN (Mar 1, 2008)

your the man...keep that shit pumping like gasoline......good job


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 1, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> Differnces in the country, my heater is cranking and you install cool tubes. I shovel snow, you run a dehumidifier. I think I need to move. VV


Love it or leave it, baby. 

I sure as hell left it! 



CALIGROWN said:


> your the man...keep that shit pumping like gasoline......good job


heh, thanks, but I haven't had to pump shit since I quit the gig with the porta-potti outfit.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 1, 2008)

Hey Al, I have a question for ya! When you foliar spray your plants, do you PH the water? I have been killing bugs alot lately, and have had some bad side affects from it. I was told at my local hydro store that when using a wetting agent "penetrator in my case" along with neem, that you don't need to adjust the ph.. Now this is very strange to me since the the mix of the suggested ratio of penetrator and neem puts the ph @ around 9! But since I have had problems with stress after spraying with an adjusted ph of 6, and seeing some stress, I thought I should gather some info, and you ARE THE MAN! Got any info for me?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 1, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> Hey Al, I have a question for ya! When you foliar spray your plants, do you PH the water?


No. In fact, a high pH is desirable for foliar sprays intended for controlling mould and powdery mildew. These sprays are intended to be applied infrequently, about once every 2 weeks. More often isn't necessary. One should also take care to see that the overspray from such high pH sprays doesn't fall in the flood tray or otherwise get to the plants' roots.



> I have had problems with stress after spraying with an adjusted ph of 6


There's something else wrong aside from the pH of your spray. 

I don't know the nature of the damage your spray seems to be causing, but common faults are spraying too often, mix too strong or spraying at a less-than-optimal time which allows the foliage to remain wet too long or possibly spraying during lights-on, which may cause 'lensing' and thus 'sunburned' spots on leaves under powerful lighting. Sprays are best applied during lights-off, perhaps 30min before lights-on, with all circ fans and ventilation blowers running. Plants should dry rather quickly, within about 30-45 min.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 1, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Al
*No. In fact, a high pH is desirable for foliar sprays intended for controlling mould and powdery mildew. These sprays are intended to be applied infrequently, about once every 2 weeks. More often isn't necessary. One should also take care to see that the overspray from such high pH sprays doesn't fall in the flood tray or otherwise get to the plants' roots
*_
That is very interesting and new news for me! It really breaks the mold on what I thought the plants would like. I do spay lightly, and I don't see over spray as a problem.Question, how can the plant handle such a high PH?

_*There's something else wrong aside from the pH of your spray. 

*_I use the recommended dose of wetting agent, and neem oil...I don't see any other variable except the for the time of day that I spray. When I spray them is usually 3 hours before lights on, and the ventilation is in full force. I spray every 2/3 days, 3-4 times depending on how bad the infestation. 

_* I don't know the nature of the damage your spray seems to be causing

*_The damage is wilting/curling leaves, starting at the top of the plant, with slight yellowing, starting at the bottom of the plant. Also the new growth will exhibit the same curling, and very will be fragile. Also, my Sativa dom. strains become more affected from this. I need to spray again today for mites, so I highly appreciate your advice AL....Thanks again


_


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 1, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> _Question, how can the plant handle such a high PH?_


pH must be sustained within a roughly 5.5-6.0 range (dependent upon medium) _*in the rootzone*_ or certain nutrients may be locked out or prevented from being taken into the roots. While you can foliar feed cannabis plants, it's not the main path for nutrient uptake nor are leaves as sensitive to that pH range as are the roots. An occasional spray with a mix that is pH 9 should be fine. 



> _I use the recommended dose of wetting agent, and neem oil...I don't see any other variable except the for the time of day that I spray. When I spray them is usually 3 hours before lights on, and the ventilation is in full force. I spray every 2/3 days, 3-4 times depending on how bad the infestation_


_. 

_Spraying every 2-3 days is not 'occasional.' You're spraying far too often and might be causing some of the problems. Stop spraying for at least a week, perhaps 2- and see if your problem doesn't resolve. 

If what you're spraying for mites isn't killing them after (at worst) 2 applications, your mites are resistant to the insecticide or what you're using just doesn't work on mites. Mites readily develop resistance to insecticides; this is accelerated by haphazard application of miticides, where some mites miss being sprayed or get a sublethal dose. Those that survive will be resistant and so may their offspring. Most miticide instructions (in fruit tree directions) recommend you use them only 'once a season.' In an indoor grow op, that can be taken to mean you can repeat the use of the miticide if you have killed them all and have a long period of absence (several months) of mites. If mites reappear within a week or two after a spraying, you didn't get them all the first time, they've developed a resistance to your treatment- or you're importing them. 

Mites are not keen travellers, so the only way they will get in to your op is if you bring them in. Never bring plant material into your op which has been growing outdoors. Wear clean clothes, make sure shoe soles are clean and don't brush up against any other plants on your way into the grow room. Check plants in and around your house for mite infestations and get rid of any that have them. Azaleas are famous mite hotels. 

Once mites are in, you really have to take extraordinary measures to get rid of them. Thorough application of known effective miticides like abamectrin (Avid) and Dead Red to existing plants along with a VERY through cleaning and vacuuming of the grow op- not a speck of dust anywhere- is where to start. Badly infested plants (where mites are spinning webs) should become compost.

If you're seeing wilt, get a look at the roots of the affected plant. The problem might not just be mites- you may have rootzone problems from gnats (scarid fly, aka fungus gnat) or even overwatering. If the roots are not white and active, there's a problem in the rootball.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 1, 2008)

al b.... i try to keep up....but your thread updates so much....with that said, i know you've mentioned what you foilar feed with..... but i cant seem to find it. what do you like to foilar feed with and why?

and im looking at investing in a mister/sprayer

something like this: Mondi Premium Mist 'n Spray Bottle | Miscellaneous

or

Duroblast Power Sprayer | Miscellaneous

or 

Precipitator 360 Spray Bottle | Miscellaneous


which one you think is better??? what would you get? are they any better than a spray bottle from the dollar store?


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 1, 2008)

Quick response to you Blunts, I have used two of the three that you listed, "360-Mondi" and for the money, I say the Mondi is the way to go...I now use a 1 gallon sprayer from Home Depot "13.95" that does the job the best...But it depends of course how much spray you need...

Hey Al, thanks for your time, I have to go tend to the garden right now, and I plan to read your post in fine detail later....


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 1, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al b.... i try to keep up....but your thread updates so much....with that said, i know you've mentioned what you foilar feed with..... but i cant seem to find it. what do you like to foilar feed with and why?


The reason you can't find it is because I haven't actually said I foliar feed- because I don't. See no need for it, moreover, I'm already contesting problems induced by humidity and have gone to extraordinary measures to keep my RH in check. Foliar feeding would exacerbate some problems.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 1, 2008)

damnit al, now that you mention it....i do remember why you said you DONT foilar feed.


damn stoner memory!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 1, 2008)

LB, it's just the _short term_ memory that's failing you. In about 5 years, you'll remember it all with crystal clarity.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Mar 2, 2008)

wow this is a shit load of pimp info I just read 69 pages dam lol
al you the man this is just what the doctor ordered.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 2, 2008)

Oh my, terribly sorry, but you can find the pimp info over here. Everything you'd ever want to know about pimps without _*acksherly*_ having to read 69 pages. 

BTW, I got demoted. I once was '_*da*_ man,' but now am only 'a man' or more commonly 'that idiot who stole my parking space.'


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Mar 2, 2008)

Haha Al that's an awesome story I bet he was thrilled when he saw that on his back step...takes some balls to cut down your whole drop over a feud but it served the asshole right! Thanks again for all the help I'll definitely be checking in daily.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 3, 2008)

sg, I'm not usually that kinda guy- and fortunately, haven't had to exhibit such assholiness ever again. That's in no small part because I scaled my op so I could do all the work myself.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Mar 3, 2008)

well I was giving you props for all the info as for actsherly no chance, and
im not a gang banger looking to pimp out hoes sorry to offend you we are 
red neck moutain men up in alaska braving the 20 below weather,
just ment that your setup seems flawless and the best ive read so far.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks for the praise, and I'm not at all offended. 

My op isn't flawless- I'm still learning about coping with seasonal environmental changes as I don't have total climate control installed. The cooltubes make it a hell of a lot better, tho. 

Up in Alaska, watch out for madmen with sporks!


----------



## panhead (Mar 3, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> also, so you take your clones and put them directly into flowering? is that stressful for the plant, like, creating less bud or less quality? i don't know too much about SOG, or the way you are doing it anyway with the flowering cycles.
> 
> _I don't mean to just jump in with this, but I will just throw out my thoughts on this. When you take a clone from the mom, that clone is as old as the the mother was at that time. So, if your mom is 4 weeks old, then so is your clone...So once you have roots, the clone is actually very mature... Probably about 6 weeks mature! So it is more then ready to go into bloom..._


Thank you,this is an awesome thread & im learning a ton but the redundindency of the allready been answered questions is seriously clogging the real info,hopefully your clarification will lay to rest the issue of cloning.

To AL & all the others answering questions in this thread,without a doubt this is the most informative thread ever,im struggling to get through it as im reading every last post from the start,im at page 42 right now.


----------



## sportsguy1598 (Mar 3, 2008)

Haha I hope if I get robbed the only weapon the guy has is a spork!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 3, 2008)

panhead said:


> Thank you,this is an awesome thread & im learning a ton but the redundindency of the allready been answered questions is seriously clogging the real info,hopefully your clarification will lay to rest the issue of cloning.
> 
> To AL & all the others answering questions in this thread,without a doubt this is the most informative thread ever,im struggling to get through it as im reading every last post from the start,im at page 42 right now.


Thanks for the praise. 

While it's not my forum to moderate, it would be thoughtful for readers in this thread to leave queries directed _*to*_ me, _*for*_ me to answer. You're right, the waters can be muddied somewhat. Every once in a while, the thread gets a flood of new posts, which can cause me to overlook some of them. 

Here's what dcg said in response to denver4mx:



daddychrisg said:


> _When you take a clone from the mom, that clone is as old as the the mother was at that time. So, if your mom is 4 weeks old, then so is your clone...So once you have roots, the clone is actually very mature... Probably about 6 weeks mature! So it is more then ready to go into bloom..._


Mind you, interlocution or not, what dcg said was quite correct. The clone will have identical maturity characters to the mother plant. When raising up new plants from seed, it takes about 6-8 weeks for the plant to come to sexual maturity (non-gender specific preflowers at nodes), at which point it can be sexed and then either flowered or used as a donor plant.


----------



## infamouse21 (Mar 3, 2008)

al B.... do u only flush your plants for 1 week or 2, & do u use any chemicals 2 help


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 3, 2008)

Reading back, this is one of those posts that kinda got through to the keeper. 



denverm4x said:


> haha i don't mean to be dissenting, i am just typing what i think i have read. i have just heard/read that clones of clones of clones just eventually water down the line and are not as desirable as.... should i say, the seed plant? anyway i am just interpreting what i have been learning. it makes sense that clones are exact DNA replicas, but again, it also seems to make sense that the copy of a copy of a copy is not as good as the original.


This is a common myth about taking clones of clones, rooted in an incomplete understanding of how DNA works. Cloning is a bit more like a copy of a computer file, with a built-in error detecting checksum, than a photocopy or a tape recording, neither which respect fidelity to the source being copied. DNA does make mistakes in replication, but when DNA makes 'errors,' the mutations are most often lethal. If seeds are produced from DNA with a lethal mutation, the seeds just won't sprout, ending the possibility of DNA error transmission.

However, it is the non-lethal mutations which plant breeders rely upon. Non-lethal mutations may in fact be desirable changes in the plant and can be selected for in future generations to emphasise them.

DNA mutations occur mainly in sexual reproduction (male pollen fertilising a female flower). When replicating plants by asexual means (propagation by cuttings), the risk of DNA mutation of the progeny is near nil. Nothing changes the DNA (in the nucleus of every cell in the branch cut off the mother) _*just*_ by virtue of cutting it off the mother plant. 

Unless you have a strong source of ionising radiation in your clonebox, you have done nothing to the plant to change the structure of the DNA in your clones- and they will behave identically in all ways to the donor plants.



denverm4x said:


> also, so you take your clones and put them directly into flowering? is that stressful for the plant, like, creating less bud or less quality? i don't know too much about SOG, or the way you are doing it anyway with the flowering cycles.


Once they have a good spray of roots, my clones do go straight into 12/12 light in the flowering area. The purpose of the abrupt change is to make the clones go to flowering behaviours as quickly as possible so they don't continue to gain a lot of vertical height. We _*want*_ short plants (compared to plants grown outdoors) in SOG to suit the rather weak foliar penetration capacity of artificial lighting- even a mighty 1000HPS ain't the sun.

However, keep in mind that my mums and clones are always kept under 24/7 light and cannabis plants don't switch modes instantly from veg to flower. The plant produces certain hormones which determine its growth habit and does so in response to the photoperiod provided. It takes a few weeks for plants which previously only have known 24/7 light to fully change their hormonal balance toward flowering in response to 12/12 light.

We _*do*_ exploit this rather slow growth habit shift in SoG. My clones still continue to display some veg characters for the first 4 weeks in 12/12 light, at which point they stop gaining vertical height and start packing on the bud weight. This dwindling vegetative character hangs around just long enough to make the plants gain some overall size and then stop before they are too tall to suit indoor lighting. The laggardly shift in growing habit eliminates the need to give any veg lighting time to clones after they have set root in a SoG op.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 3, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> al B.... do u only flush your plants for 1 week or 2, & do u use any chemicals 2 help


I don't flush them at all. All my tanks run flowering nutes at 1400ppm. I have tried running tank 4 on pH adjusted water only and found _*absolutely no difference*_ in the smoking characters. 

However, a plant will only store about 2 weeks worth of nutes, a bit less than 2 weeks for very mature, advanced plants. If I run tank 4 (wks 6- on water, by the end of wk8, the plants will begin to look pretty N deficient. Every so often, I have the time and space to flower plants a bit longer than 8 weeks; helps the density a bit. It's better in my case to continue to run nutes in tank 4 in the off chance that I'll have the space to keep them flowering a bit longer. Since it doesn't make any difference to the smoke, I'd rather keep nutes in tank 4 and be prepared for longer flowering if I can do it.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 3, 2008)

I think I have still missed part of d4mx's query. 

Is there a difference in the per plant yield or quality in plants abruptly shifted from 24/7 to 12/12? There's two questions there, I'll get to them one at a time. 

Since we are deliberately growing small plants in SoG, of course the per-plant yield in SoG is lower than in methods which involve growing full sized (ie grown outdoors in a full-length season) or bushier plants- but there's benefits to that trade-off. 

The SoG method is an adaptation which exploits certain growing characters of cannabis plants to better suit the limited foliar penetration capacities of indoor lighting compared to sunlight.

If you grow tall, bushy, unpruned 'christmas tree' style plants indoors, quite a bit more floorspace is committed to supporting small, lower branches which produce small, fluffy buds. Indoor lighting can only penetrate foliage so far from the lamp (and growing tips only so close), so lower branches produce even less under artificial light than they would outdoors. These poor-producing lower branches also make a lot of leaf which restricts airflow around the plant unless they are adequately spaced, gobbling up valuable, expensive lighted square footage for no productive benefit. 

Some folks have tried to get around the foliar penetration and height issues by lopping the mainstem and allowing the plant to bush out. This causes growth to divide, encouraging smaller lower branches to form larger terminal colas than they would on an unpruned plant. However, it is the nature of cannabis plants to form their largest and densest colas on the tip of the mainstem. The chunky terminal colas are sacrificed in this method. Lopped yet bushy plants still take up a lot of lighted floorspace per plant, but at least they make it more productive than unpruned plants as the light can be dropped lower to encourage better production from lower branches. 






_('scuse my kindergarten art, please...)_

In SoG, you can raise 4 plants per sq ft. Full sized and bushy plants need closer to 1-1.5sq ft per (or more). Both SoG & unpruned plants develop their best buds on the top of the mainstem. SoG simply eliminates everything but the top cola. 4 stalks of the largest buds the plant characteristically makes, with all lower branches removed, will outyield a single bushy or unpruned plant every time. Better yet, SoG gives you ONLY top colas and the clumpier lumpy buds attached to the mainstem just below them. On average, SoG buds are much larger and denser than those from any other method due to exploiting the uneven bud size production in the flowering habit of cannabis plants. 

So... SoG makes best use of the penetration ability of indoor lighting by limiting plant height while preserving the largest buds and by eliminating low productivity parts of the plant, makes better use of lighted floorspace. 

But what about the quality? 

Plants raised outdoors will mature to harvestability (about 50-60% of calyxes having turned brown/orange) in around 8-10 weeks. We do just the same thing in SoG, using the same cues for maturity and readiness for harvest. 

SoG has the final benefit of being weeks faster than other means due to elimination of veg time between cloning and flowering. No veg time also means you need no facilities (extra room, floorspace, MH lighting if desired) for vegging, either. 

Have I sold you yet? No? Well there's MORE! Order now & get a FREE set of STEAK KNIVES!


----------



## infamouse21 (Mar 3, 2008)

so why does everyone talk about "flushing" cause it gets ride of the nut tast ect..?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 3, 2008)

infamouse21 said:


> so why does everyone talk about "flushing" cause it gets ride of the nut tast ect..?


You could make any number of conclusions by smoking a plant which had been badly fert burned. It'd taste bad because of low resin content- sickly or badly cooked plants make mainly cellulose smoke as only healthy plants make a lot of perfumey resin- but I'm quite sure someone would pin it on fert content. 

An awful lot of ideas in cannabis growing get propagated by people who don't try it both ways before adopting a method. I _*have*_ troubled myself to do it both ways- and I have no preference.


----------



## infamouse21 (Mar 3, 2008)

well i could deffinatly agree with the resin "THC" content. 
we had a plant go hermi on us half way through flower, & my dumbass said lets pick off the flowers & try to save it cause it was looking nice.
well needless 2 say it still managed 2 gizz on our other 3 plants & ( wont ever try that again) seed them up. but the hermi we harvested early obviously, but only 3 weeks.
theirs hardly no thc on it must be cause it went hermi.
now the other 3 palnts are looking crazy nice still minus the seeds. & they smell like straight passion fruit & almost look like white widow. hmmm hmmm hmmm. 
flushed the hermi for 1 week. dried it for 5 days tried smoking it & it was like regs. even though it was ebb flow setup. but it must of been cause their was basically no thc, correct or wrong?


----------



## GoodFriend (Mar 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You could make any number of conclusions by smoking a plant which had been badly fert burned. It'd taste bad because of low resin content- sickly or badly cooked plants make mainly cellulose smoke as only healthy plants make a lot of perfumey resin- but I'm quite sure someone would pin it on fert content.
> 
> An awful lot of ideas in cannabis growing get propagated by people who don't try it both ways before adopting a method. I _*have*_ troubled myself to do it both ways- and I have no preference.


this is only cuz the damn plants are illegal most places...

if there was a much freer and accepting view towards cannabis so much of the bullshit, even that spread by those who use, would dissipate for the most part...

maybe some day...


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 4, 2008)

just an add in for people who wanna go organic and do SoG, Advanced Nutrients has a line for hydro organic growing, Advanced Nutrients
my local shop has the iguana juice grow and bloom, bloom is what i will use in my setup in about another 4 weeks when its ready


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 4, 2008)

Keep in mind that most, if not all organic nutes are incompatible with H2O2. Peroxide will break down organic nutes just as readily as fungus or algae. Organic growers will have to find another means of pathogen control. 

Me, I say bring on the motherfuckin' _*chemicals!*_


----------



## sk3tch3 (Mar 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Have I sold you yet? No? Well there's MORE! Order now & get a FREE set of STEAK KNIVES!


 
funniest shit so far. i know you are perfecting the technique, and i being from cali only appreciates the extent of your research. SOG that is; cheers!


----------



## hellraizer30 (Mar 5, 2008)

hey al you know of a cheap place to get those 4x4 flood tables? and is
growdan the only thing to use or clay pellets works, but the more i think about it the pellet wont soke it the nutes like the stuff you use, the reason
I ask is im trying to not have much waist to throw away each month, and
rockwool and grodan dont burn so its going to just build up and when i dump
it the alot of evidence.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 5, 2008)

Mine are not 4x4, they are 820mm^2 or 32"^2. 

Look in your local hydro shops for flood tables. I would be hesitant to mail order them. They're big, costly to ship and often fragile and easy to damage in common trucking delivery when sent one at a time. They ship OK by the palletload, but when sent onesy-twosy in a courier truck tend to get tweaked. You might not find a crack until you fill the tray. You're better off going to the shop and getting them yourself. 

I've discussed numerous times in this thread why I don't use clay pellets. They're not as recyclable as you may think. They are hard to properly clean free of all old root matter and sterilise; they will accumulate nute salt crusts and eventually be unusable. If you can't clean and sterilise them, root diseases and insect larvae may be propagated from crop to crop. When you do eventually dispose of pellets (which won't burn, either, BTW), they're heavy and unusual enough looking to draw attention if bags split and spill in rubbish collection.

Yes, disposing of media from each crop generates a lot of waste (about 6 soccer ball sized bags per crop for me), but using a lightweight medium makes disposal easy. I dispose of old Fytocell and floc media with rootballs in common rubbish- and I don't feel too bad about it. Here's why. 

After harvest, I let the pots of mixed floc & fytocell media dry out, remove any leaf matter and then double bag in recycled plastic grocery bags, same as all my other rubbish. Yes, it's hydro media, although not near as commonly identifiable as hydro media as pellets are, should a bag split. Looks like old insulation material.

Whether you use pellets or anything else, you will be disposing of rootballs, which will invariably trap at least some of your media in them. Rootballs can not be identified with the naked eye as being necessarily from cannabis plants, nor do cannabis rootballs smell anything like buds. It would essentially take DNA testing or some other expert botanical analysis to determine what sort of plant they came from. 

I still would not want to leave any credit card receipts in the old grocery bags I use, but I seriously doubt a cop could get a warrant for cause of finding rootballs from a unidentified plants in my rubbish bin... and LEO could dream _*ON*_ if applying to a judge for a warrant based on suspect materials mixed up with waste from dozens of houses in a rubbish truck or tip. Once it's in the truck, you're pretty well off the hook. Rootballs as such are 'warm' grow op waste, to be handled with some sense, but it'd be hard to call nonspecific rootballs 'probable cause' or 'reasonable suspicion' as might be applied to a bag of perfumey post-manicuring leaf trimmings ('hot' waste) found in your bin. 

Fresh media every time prevents problems and eliminates a troubleshooting step when you do have trouble. Don't be too paranoid about 'warm' garden wastes.


----------



## closet.cult (Mar 5, 2008)

this is a great thread with lots of info. thanks ABF.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Keep in mind that most, if not all organic nutes are incompatible with H2O2. Peroxide will break down organic nutes just as readily as fungus or algae. Organic growers will have to find another means of pathogen control.
> 
> Me, I say bring on the motherfuckin' _*chemicals!*_


 

these iguana juice' from advanced nutrients Organic Iguana Juice Grow and Bloom | Advanced Nutrients | Organic Fertilizer are fomulated to do in hydro setups al. they're like the happy medium between smokers and yielders i think. basically what i was looking for. im gona try and let you know what i think. also thanks for the knowledge here im sure it helps lots of people. (me especially, im COPYING your setup almost to a T except the nutes and a couple other things) but thanks alot

also Al do you know of any other pathogen control or do you think changing the res every week instead of waiting 2 would suffice for pathogen control?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 5, 2008)

closet.cult said:


> this is a great thread with lots of info. thanks ABF.


Thanks. 



cmak40 said:


> they're like the happy medium between smokers and yielders i think.


You act like there's some sort of smoking difference in the buds raised with standard and 'organic' hydro nutes. There's not. 

What passes the plants' root barrier is basic elements such as N, P & K. Makes not ONE whit of difference whether the N came from ammonium nitrate or from compost tea- other than standard nutes are more bioavailable than organics, which have to break down to elements before absorbtion. 

The biggest difference between so-called 'chemical' and 'organic' nutes is that there's some additional complexities for organic users. I don't know what I would do if I could not use H2O2 in my tanks. 



> basically what i was looking for. im gona try and let you know what i think. also thanks for the knowledge here im sure it helps lots of people. (me especially, im COPYING your setup almost to a T except the nutes and a couple other things) but thanks alot


I'm glad you're finding some useful data... instead of making up your mind what you want to do, convincing yourself that it's better than what you see running in my op and sallying forth. You are pretty much on your own when it comes to organic nutes, but you're quite welcome to start your own thread to discuss the stuff. 



> also Al do you know of any other pathogen control or do you think changing the res every week instead of waiting 2 would suffice for pathogen control?


Chlorination will suppress pathogens in an open tank of nutes for about 2-4 days, when the chlorine evaporates from the solution. After that it's a free-for-all microbial fuckfest in a yummy nutrient soup for any passing algae, fungus spore, etc.


----------



## denverm4x (Mar 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Have I sold you yet? No? Well there's MORE! Order now & get a FREE set of STEAK KNIVES!


 hahaha i appreciate your responses and i love the drawing! brilliant. this thread has some good shit in it, thanks for all the information Al.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 5, 2008)

Does that mean you want the steak knives? 

When I run out of those, you'll have to settle for a Ginsu. Real good for cutting beer cans in half, great for those times when you just _*gotta*_ have half a beer can. 

*...But this is a limited time offer, so call now! *


----------



## panhead (Mar 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Does that mean you want the steak knives?
> 
> When I run out of those, you'll have to settle for a OpenDNS. Real good for cutting beer cans in half, great for those times when you just _*gotta*_ have half a beer can.
> 
> *...But this is a limited time offer, so call now! *


Im with the guy who said earlier in the thread he was gonna get his sister to give you head for all the good info,now i just gotta find a sister to buy for the night.

Best thread ever !


----------



## sk3tch3 (Mar 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> ...After that it's a free-for-all microbial fuckfest in a yummy nutrient soup for any passing algae, fungus spore, etc.


 
it never stops getting better!!!


----------



## RisingStock (Mar 5, 2008)

Wow, I learn something new EVERY time I check in here. Thanks a million Al, you're like the Encyclopedia Brown of Indoor Op's.

I've started my own Op, completely *trying* to copy everything I've learned here. Only difference is, it's going to be DWC, just because that's been where I've had the experience. As Al said, maybe on what....page 40 of this _huge _thread, someday someone will try to run this op using DWC and photo it. Well, that day has come. It won't be anywhere as good as Al's initially, but hopefully, _someday_. (That day being probably multiple years in the future.)

Anyone interested, please check:
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/55028-sog-dwc-grow-op.html

It's presently on week 5 from seed, so it's going to be a while.

Any constructive comments will be appreciated. 

Ride with me.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 5, 2008)

panhead said:


> Im with the guy who said earlier in the thread he was gonna get his sister to give you head for all the good info,now i just gotta find a sister to buy for the night.
> 
> Best thread ever !


Well, thanks for that. 

If you're going to buy a sister, make sure you look like Joliet Jake before you say "Your women! I vant to buy your women. Ow moch vor zeee leetle gorl?" 

And then _run like *hell*._ 



> Originally Posted by *Al B. Fuct*
> _...After that it's a free-for-all microbial fuckfest in a yummy nutrient soup for any passing algae, fungus spore, etc._





sk3tch3 said:


> it never stops getting better!!!


While colourful, it's an accurate depiction of what's going on in a nute tank. Mould & fungi spores as well as bacteria are quite literally EVERYWHERE. it's a good thing you can't see most them... because it would freak you right the fuck out. 

If cannabis plants will like your nitrogen rich, oxygenated nute sauce, you can bet other plants will as well- unless you deprive them of the opportunity. Single celled plants like algae and mould/fungi don't stand a chance when there's an oxidiser like H2O2 present in the solution. 

However, cannabis roots are not harmed at all by 1ml/L concentrations of 50% grade H2O2 in nute solutions. Roots get _*seriously*_ off on the oxygen released when H2O2 breaks down simple organic matter and are really quite tolerant of H2O2 in the nutes. I've accidentally double dosed tanks with no ill effects.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 6, 2008)

I've been thrashing the same 130 or so 175mm pots in my system for about 7-8 years now. Many are cracked or otherwise damaged. Bought them so long ago that the place I last got them from has gone out of biz.

Could not find plain old black 175mm plastic pots to save my life at Bunnies, dollar shops, Kmart, not even at my local, usually-way-too-expensive-so-last-resort-only Flower Power shop.

Hit the web, found these guys:

Garden City Plastics

Whoomp, there it is. Every possible size and colour.

2 stacks of 70 black 175mm pots cost $63 cash money off their whse dock, $0.45 a pot, about 1/3 the price for near sized pots elsewhere. Bargain.


----------



## sk3tch3 (Mar 6, 2008)

there is a whole different world under a high powerd microscope. and yes a lot of it does freak me out! cheers!


----------



## dertmagert (Mar 6, 2008)

hey al.. ive been reading your thread with much interest. im planning on a perpetual harvest (i have a bunch of clones, a veg chamber with my mothers already sexed) and my flowering chamber... its about 4 x 3 x 7.. i only have a 430 hps enhanced spectrum in that area but i think its workin out pretty good.. (check it out) .. i should be able to rotate 12 plants ( 3 every other week ) in here right? or do u think im better off growing em big n bushy?



"high pressure sodium sunrise"


----------



## dertmagert (Mar 6, 2008)

(( ive only began to doubt my lights effectiveness just now when reading you and videomans feud )) 

and here i thought i was looking good.... sheesh


----------



## mr thc (Mar 6, 2008)

what is your monthly electrical bill (just the one grow room.) I'm very interested in this....sounds like the kind of project for my next grow. How much daily work does it require would you say? I go to university....but would a student with time in the morning ( 7:00-8:00) and time in the afternoon (4pm+) be able to maintain such an indoor garden? I'd like any kind of prices you can give me...from nutrients to ph up/down...I just want to have an estimation cost, this has excited me


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 6, 2008)

* I don't know what I would do if I could not use H2O2 in my tanks.

*_Hey Al, where did you say you get your H2O2? I remember you saying that you found it for a good price awhile back...I have been using cannazym and Sub-culture for awhile now with results that are less then legendary, but I would like to give H2O2 a chance since my buckets get pretty gooped up...BTW I have done some testing and research on PH levels of foliar spray solutions. What I have found is just like you have said in the past, that a PH of 9 is not going to hurt a plant if only sprayed a once-twice a week...So, after a week of research, I am still pretty much in the same boat as I was from the beginning...I hate spraying my plants with anything! I hope that changes at some point...Thanks for the rockin thread...._


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 6, 2008)

dertmagert said:


> do u think im better off growing em big n bushy?


 Of course I don't. I've gone to great pains in a recent, very long post to describe why bushy plants are not desirable for indoor growers, as well. Your 430HPS is going to be a problem with the bushiness you have now. SoG makes much better use of lower powered lights due to reduction of empty space between plants and elimination of unnecessary foliage, which you have lots of at the moment. 



mr thc said:


> what is your monthly electrical bill (just the one grow room.) I'm very interested in this....sounds like the kind of project for my next grow. How much daily work does it require would you say? I go to university....but would a student with time in the morning ( 7:00-8:00) and time in the afternoon (4pm+) be able to maintain such an indoor garden? I'd like any kind of prices you can give me...from nutrients to ph up/down...I just want to have an estimation cost, this has excited me


The daily work isn't the time burner- it can be as little as 10 mins a day for basic checks, just to see that water pumps have run, air pumps are running, water levels OK, temp & RH range OK, etc. 

Harvesting and biweekly tank dumps are time consuming. I've mostly automated the tank dump with some valving and hoses but the tanks have to be cleaned (a swish with a toilet-type brush, wet with full strength 50% H2O2), rinsed, drained again and refilled/mixed. Harvesting is nose-down, hard old work... that I should be doing now instead of writing this.  It will take me 3-4 days of seriously cross-eyed snippery, around 12-14hrs marathon manicuring per day, to harvest a tray. 

The problem you will have is that an op the size of mine is a full time job with emergency, non-optional overtime for about 5 days every 2 weeks. Each time a batch comes out to be harvested, a batch of cuttings has to be done, all plants get sprayed for powdery mildew prevention then get shifted to the next tray. While trays are empty when moving plants around, I clean them out as well. At the same time, 23 pots have to be packed with media and prepared for the batch of clones now rooted and ready to go in to flower. I should be packing pots as we speak!

You can calculate your potential power bill by multiplying the kWh price by your op's power draw in kW. In example, a 400W (0.4kW) light running 12 hours per day at a $0.15/kWh rate will cost 0.4kW x $0.15 per kWh = $0.06 per hour x 12 hours = $0.72 per day. Your mileage may vary due to your power co's kWh rate. Get out ye olde calculator and get busy. 



daddychrisg said:


> * I don't know what I would do if I could not use H2O2 in my tanks.
> 
> *_Hey Al, where did you say you get your H2O2? I remember you saying that you found it for a good price awhile back...I have been using cannazym and Sub-culture for awhile now with results that are less then legendary, but I would like to give H2O2 a chance since my buckets get pretty gooped up...BTW I have done some testing and research on PH levels of foliar spray solutions. What I have found is just like you have said in the past, that a PH of 9 is not going to hurt a plant if only sprayed a once-twice a week...So, after a week of research, I am still pretty much in the same boat as I was from the beginning...I hate spraying my plants with anything! I hope that changes at some point...Thanks for the rockin thread...._


Thanks for the thanks. 

Remember, if you are on organic nutes, you'll have to switch to std types before using H2O2. 

I buy 25L jugs of 50% grade H2O2 from a hydroponics equip wholesaler. About $125. Lasts several months. 

Dose your buckets at 1ml/litre every 3-4 days. If you have a lot of organic goo in them, a one time shock treatment at about 3ml/L followed by regular 1ml/L dosing each 3-4 days ought to pretty things up a bit. 

Yep, if you're going to foliar spray, 2x weekly is about as often as you'd ever want to do it. 

I spray plants 1x every 2 wks for powdery mildew prevention. If I have healthy roots, I don't see any need to foliar feed. Trying a new product for PM called 'Micro Kill' by Nefarious. Supposed to be a nontoxic yucca or cactus plant extract with no withholding period for fruits or veg sprayed with the stuff. I hate the smell of the lime sulfur crap, have also noted it can cause some leaf deformation on growing tips of young wk1-2 plants, even when used well below the recommended 1ml/L dosage rate (I've been using 0.5ml/L) They get over the deformation rather quickly but it still annoys me. Gotta be something better. We'll see how we go.


----------



## psyclone (Mar 8, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> "Of course I don't. I've gone to great pains in a recent, very long post to describe why bushy plants are not desirable for indoor growers, as well. Your 430HPS is going to be a problem with the bushiness you have now. SoG makes much better use of lower powered lights due to reduction of empty space between plants ".


Thanks Al, great thread-7.5oz SOG baby cured and jarred fathered by 250watt dual spectrum bulb. I am a convert. And, bugger the UV.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 9, 2008)

you da man al b fuct(yes that was a promotion, lol)! why hasnt this been stickied yet???

ok i have a list of questions for you, sorry... you can answer after you do your manicuring, cloning, repotting, or w/e else. i just got around to reading the whole thing, and cant thanks you enough for sharing.

do you think that your flood tables create enough moisture to create a PM(p mildew) problem? i just dont know how much h20 evaporates after one gets flooded.

do you think one gallon grow bags would do the trick instead of pots? do you think they are of similar volume?

you said that you've tried aeroponics and you had problems with it, what happened again? also do you have to clean the misters once every two days, say from using using GH flora series nutes? i was thinking about doing my own aero build but after reading this thread im more poised to try E&F now... is aero that touchy/ messes up alot? i know if power goes out then your plants are in jeopardy, but other than that what are some drawbacks?

how bad is chlorine/tap water for your plant/roots?

i did a little breeding(or at least am trying to) with a couple plants and was curious to hold long does it normally take for the hairs to change color after the pistols conceive pollen? kinda off the subject, and i know you mostly deal with clones, but it seems like you know everything about herb.

should/do you have to ph your water when flushing? i know you dont flush but hypothetically speaking, does it make a difference what the ph is? there are no nutes to be absorbed so i wouldnt see a reason for getting the ph to optimal level.

what are your res temps? what do you think the highest acceptable temps are for your set up b4 you start to see negative effects? you dont have to worry about DO as much because you add h2o2. do you think if your res temps were lower that it would make a positive effect on your yield?

how many gph is your pumps?

i hope i didnt ask any redundant questions(there has been a few to say the least), but its a real long read. 

last but not least.....................when are you going to write a grow bible? hehe.

sorry for inundating you with Q's.....thanks a bunch, cheers, have a bloody g'day mate!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 9, 2008)

psyclone said:


> Thanks Al, great thread-7.5oz SOG baby cured and jarred fathered by 250watt dual spectrum bulb. I am a convert. And, bugger the UV.


well done, great work. 



We TaRdED said:


> you da man al b fuct(yes that was a promotion, lol)! why hasnt this been stickied yet???


Thanks for the praise, but on a lot of days, I don't feel like 'da' man, but rather '*DUH*' man.  I absolutely do get it wrong from time to time. Go back through this thread in its entirety and you'll catch me out a couple of times.

This thread probably doesn't need to be sticky- with as much activity as this thread sees (over 47,000 reads at last look), it sorta stickies itself. 



> ok i have a list of questions for you, sorry... you can answer after you do your manicuring, cloning, repotting, or w/e else. i just got around to reading the whole thing, and cant thanks you enough for sharing.
> 
> do you think that your flood tables create enough moisture to create a PM(p mildew) problem? i just dont know how much h20 evaporates after one gets flooded.


Thanks for the thanks. 

The flood tables are only flooded for about 3-5 mins, 2x per day. The nute tanks are open and thus a constant source of evaporation, but to cover them would create a fungus, mould and bacteria trap. Much more significant sources of moisture in the air are evaporation directly from the media and especially from the plants' leaves. I'm working with a rather small airmass for the number of plants, but I do have means to cut the humidity and also massive exhaust ventilation capacity. 


> do you think one gallon grow bags would do the trick instead of pots? do you think they are of similar volume?


No, I would not recommend grow bags. I use individual pots of media because it allows me to pick up and move plants within the op to even out growth and for maintenance like spraying, etc. Grow bags, which contain media for several plants, limit plant mobility. I also don't think grow bags are intended for flood & drain systems. I'll suggest they'll be more expensive than bulk media as well. 

Not sure about the volume of my 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots, but I'm sure you can math out the volume of a cylinder (or find an online calculator to do it for you). 



> you said that you've tried aeroponics and you had problems with it, what happened again?


My aero system created mist with air stones and bubble curtains in a common tank, above which the plants were suspended in netpots full of clay pellets. Air bubbles breaking the rez surface created the mist droplets. An air pump failure killed a bunch of plants. I (re) converted the system to flood operation in pots of absorbent media to prevent a recurrence. 



> also do you have to clean the misters once every two days, say from using using GH flora series nutes? i was thinking about doing my own aero build but after reading this thread im more poised to try E&F now... is aero that touchy/ messes up alot? i know if power goes out then your plants are in jeopardy, but other than that what are some drawbacks?


All nutrient solns will leave a nute crust buildup when allowed to dry on a surface or when forced through a small aperture. All of 'em, no way around it. The mineral salts in nutrients are solids when you take away the water.
If your aero system creates mist by moving water through a spray nozzle, crust will accumulate unless cleaned pretty much every other day. 

Small apertures can also be clogged by any particulate matter loose in the reservoir. If you're going to pump water rather than air for an aero system, a suitable filter on the water pump inlet is a pretty good idea. 



> how bad is chlorine/tap water for your plant/roots?


It's not bad at all. Chlorination as applied in municipal water systems does not hurt plants. I don't know where this idea got started. Chlorination is your friend. It keeps pathogens suppressed while the water is in the reticulation system and also for the first 2-4 days standing in an open tank. Yibbayabba about reverse-osmosis, distilled or other fancy water for cannabis plants is a total (and expensive) wank. Tapwater is fine... unless your taps are connected to a bore water of very poor quality, with high salinity or high mineral salt (esp limestone) content. I've never seen a problem in any hydroponic op caused by municipal water. 



> i did a little breeding(or at least am trying to) with a couple plants and was curious to hold long does it normally take for the hairs to change color after the pistols conceive pollen? kinda off the subject, and i know you mostly deal with clones, but it seems like you know everything about herb.


_"pistols conceive pollen"_

um... what?

If you're asking how long it should take for calyxes to brown off after being pollinated, probably within a few days or so. 



> should/do you have to ph your water when flushing? i know you dont flush but hypothetically speaking, does it make a difference what the ph is? there are no nutes to be absorbed so i wouldnt see a reason for getting the ph to optimal level.


I think you're right. It'd save you about 20ml of pHDown per 125L of nute soln if you didn't use it. However, 2L of pHDown only costs about $10. 20ml of the stuff is worth 10 cents.



> what are your res temps? what do you think the highest acceptable temps are for your set up b4 you start to see negative effects? you dont have to worry about DO as much because you add h2o2. do you think if your res temps were lower that it would make a positive effect on your yield?


I have no idea what my res temps are, never have measured them. My roots are not dangling in my res tanks; it's not a terribly useful measurement for a flood system. 



> how many gph is your pumps?


No idea.I have some of the very smallest, cheapest ones on the shelf at the hydro shop, which would perhaps be 140L/hr and a couple other bigger ones. All they need to do is fill the flood trays to the overflow tube level in 3-5 minutes, 2x per day. Flow rate for pumps in a flood system is not a critical issue. 


> last but not least.....................when are you going to write a grow bible? hehe.


I thought that's what I'm doing now!


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> well done, great work.
> Go back through this thread in its entirety and you'll catch me out a couple of times.


ya i have, its all good though. you have a lot of respect from me.






Al B. Fuct said:


> No, I would not recommend grow bags. I use individual pots of media because it allows me to pick up and move plants within the op to even out growth and for maintenance like spraying, etc. Grow bags, which contain media for several plants, limit plant mobility. I also don't think grow bags are intended for flood & drain systems. I'll suggest they'll be more expensive than bulk media as well.


i think we arent on the same page on this one. they are basically panda film that has holes in the bottom. some are all black and others are white on the outside. what do you think about these? these come with no medium in them and come in a variety of sizes.

Amazon.com: Plastic Grow Bag - 2 gallon: Home Improvement







Al B. Fuct said:


> My aero system created mist with air stones and bubble curtains in a common tank, above which the plants were suspended in netpots full of clay pellets. Air bubbles breaking the rez surface created the mist droplets. An air pump failure killed a bunch of plants. I (re) converted the system to flood operation in pots of absorbent media to prevent a recurrence.


im new to this hydro thing........that kinda sounds like DWC/bubbleponics to me...... im a noob, sorry but what is the difference between this and a DWC system? 




Al B. Fuct said:


> _"pistols conceive pollen"_
> 
> um... what?
> 
> ...


umm maybe i used the wrong words. noob mistake. when i said pistols i meant the white hairs. so how long does it take for the hairs to change color after they come in contact with pollen? or am i way wrong?

i didnt know the calyxes changed color after being pollinated... ill have to keep and eye out for that.






Al B. Fuct said:


> No idea.I have some of the very smallest, cheapest ones on the shelf at the hydro shop, which would perhaps be 140L/hr and a couple other bigger ones. All they need to do is fill the flood trays to the overflow tube level in 3-5 minutes, 2x per day. Flow rate for pumps in a flood system is not a critical issue.
> 
> 
> I thought that's what I'm doing now!


ya, i didnt think it mattered much, but i just figured i would ask to be on the safe side, just in case. 

thanks for all the great info, much obliged my friend. will keep an eye out for any updates and new info. you should publish a book. i would buy it... lol.. ty again


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 9, 2008)

> i think we arent on the same page on this one. they are basically panda film that has holes in the bottom. some are all black and others are white on the outside. what do you think about these? these come with no medium in them and come in a variety of sizes.
> 
> Amazon.com: Plastic Grow Bag - 2 gallon: Home Improvement


Ah, OK, I thought you might have been talking about this or this.

My only concern about the grow bags you picture is their durability. Would suck if however they are sealed on the bottom came unsealed at some point. If durable, they should be OK. 



> im new to this hydro thing........that kinda sounds like DWC/bubbleponics to me...... im a noob, sorry but what is the difference between this and a DWC system?


The water level. 

Lower the water level in a DWC to below the roots and generate an aerosol mist and bang, you have aero!




> so how long does it take for the hairs to change color after they come in contact with pollen? or am i way wrong?


A few days. 


> i didnt know the calyxes changed color after being pollinated... ill have to keep and eye out for that.


Yes, they do, but that's not the only reason they change colour. Unpollinated calyxes will brown off when they are past fertility, as well. 



> thanks for all the great info, much obliged my friend. will keep an eye out for any updates and new info. you should publish a book. i would buy it... lol.. ty again


no worries. 

If I were to write a grow book, I wouldn't attempt to write a general text about growing cannabis, the reason being that I'm NOT an all-around expert. For example, I'd be shithouse giving advice on outdoor guerrilla growing; there's some seriously outdoorsy people around with much more on the ball about that niche than me. As a matter of fact, I'd be in a world of trouble if I suddenly had to grow outdoors. 

If I wrote a guidebook, I'd concentrate on construction and operation of practical, stealthy, continuously productive indoor SoG ops- like the one I'm running now. I'm close to the end of the dialing in of this style of op, but I still don't think I have got it fully sussed yet. 

I also don't think that grow books are terribly big sellers. It's hard to justify a big print run of books. I did think about writing one some years ago with the intent of selling it online, but when you sell one copy, you've sold a million, if you know what I mean.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 9, 2008)

Believe it or not, there actually are interesting things going on in Utah!

Utah State University has a Crop Physiology lab where they develop hydroponic systems and plants for growth on a space station. There's some information in here for earthlings, tho. Good stuff about exactly how much dissolved O2 in nute solution oxygenation is enough, etc. 

Check this presentation of paper on Nutrient Management in Recirculating Hydroponic Culture by USU Professor of Crop Physiology, Bruce Bugbee, as presented at the South Pacific Soil-less Culture Conference Feb 11, 2003 in Palmerston North, New Zealand. 

Damn, if we could only get Dr Bugbee interested in growing a bit of weed. 

Interesting as well is the USU research on 'superdwarf' plants. While they are working with plants that have been hybridised specifically for small size, they also build hydroponic growing systems which exploit certain characters of the plants also to manage size and minimise unnecessary foliage... pretty much as you see happening every day here in Casa del Fuct.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct "Remember, if you are on organic nutes, you'll have to switch to std types before using H2O2. "

Im just curious as to what you mean by STD type organic nutes? thanx again Al


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 10, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> Im just curious as to what you mean by STD type organic nutes?


Those based on stable chemical fertilisers instead of those comprised of organic compounds like compost tea, worm castings, bat guano, etc. Things like GH's or Canna's regular lines of hydroponic nutrients are 'chemical' or non-organic. 

It's easy to avoid organics, cos if there's a skerrick of anything remotely organic in a hydroponic nutrient, some marketing genius will have told you about it on the top of the bottle's label, in 96 point red letters, usually.


----------



## psyclone (Mar 10, 2008)

Al, this may interest you
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/56014-root-grafting.html


----------



## hellraizer30 (Mar 10, 2008)

hey al got a question for ya, you say you cycle new mothers in every 3-4
times you take off them, at least thats what ive gathered from your post.
So you worried about your strain geting cloned out or do you have a master
mother you pull off of? reason I ask is Ive read that the strian weekends the 
more you get from the first gen. of the strain. and you dont keep a lid on your 
res tanks?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 10, 2008)

psyclone said:


> Al, this may interest you
> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/56014-root-grafting.html


Thanks for that psy, but grafting is a waste of time for cannabis. It's OK for fruit trees, which may take years to grow, but I can make an entirely new cannabis plant in 6 days. 

Be especially wary of anyone who wants to graft cannabis on to hops... wives' tale city.



hellraizer30 said:


> hey al got a question for ya, you say you cycle new mothers in every 3-4
> times you take off them, at least thats what ive gathered from your post.
> So you worried about your strain geting cloned out or do you have a master
> mother you pull off of? reason I ask is Ive read that the strian weekends the
> ...


No, I replace the mothers because after a spell, they can pick up bugs in the rootball or become rootbound, losing vigor for those reasons. There's no such thing as 'cloned out.' You can continuously replace mums with one of their children, _ad infinitum._ DNA doesn't wear out and is not altered in any way by cutting a branch off a donor plant. 

A clone is comprised of 'new' material. DNA doesn't wear out but it does express aging if allowed to get old. If you tried to keep a 'master' mum for years, you would run into how old cannabis plants behave. Clones taken from a very old mum just might give you trouble, simply due to the characters of aging.

I've covered this topic in this thread a few times. The nonsense about strains 'weakening' after repeated rolling cloning is just that- nonsense. It comes from people with an incomplete understanding of how DNA & asexual reproduction actually work. I've had several people absolutely insist that you can't keep cloning off a strain forever... to those people, I only have to point to my op and the Sweet Tooth #4 I've been propagating since about 2002. 

No, I don't cover my tanks. That would create a moisture trap which would encourage pathogen growth. If water were hard for me to come by, I might cover them to save the few litres of water per week evaporated from the tanks, but at 80c per 1000L, I'm leaving them open.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks for that psy, but grafting is a waste of time for cannabis. It's OK for fruit trees, which may take years to grow, but I can make an entirely new cannabis plant in 6 days.
> 
> Be especially wary of anyone who wants to graft cannabis on to hops... wives' tale city.
> 
> ...


Doesn't alge grow in your rez with no lid on it ? I know that light and nutes = alge.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 10, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Doesn't alge grow in your rez with no lid on it ? I know that light and nutes = alge.


The tanks are located beneath the flood trays, preventing direct light from reaching the tanks. 

Regular (every 3-4 days) dosing with 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L prevents algae, fungus, etc. from gaining a foothold in the nute tanks anyway.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, I don't cover my tanks. That would create a moisture trap which would encourage pathogen growth.


i didnt know that. i think i have seen some grows where people actually close the res up pretty good(but leaving a way to check ph, tds, and water level or w/e). why does a moisture trap create pathogen growth? sorry for the stupid question but im stumped. thanks al.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 10, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> why does a moisture trap create pathogen growth?


Most simple organisms are more successful in wet or highly humid environments as they are not generally large enough to move their own water supplies with them.


----------



## th3bigbad (Mar 10, 2008)

thats why i use a 50/50 mix of water and bleach. plants look like shit but they sure dry fast lol


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2008)

th3bigbad said:


> thats why i use a 50/50 mix of water and bleach. plants look like shit but they sure dry fast lol


Why just 50/50? Get serious, dude! Use bleach straight out of the jug! Chuck in some battery acid, too. No more dickin' around!


----------



## th3bigbad (Mar 11, 2008)

i wish i could but anything stronger then 50/50 my mom would smell. 


great thread bud. took me 8 bowls to read it all, but it was time well spent.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Mar 11, 2008)

ok il take your word for the cloning info you seem to be on top your a game 
here. and having a old mother is most likly why im having a hard time getting
cuts to take. My mother is 7 month old and ive transplated 4 time, im going
to just bud her out and start with new and go with your plan, healthy plants= healthy clones thanks again


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2008)

hellraizer30 said:


> ok il take your word for the cloning info you seem to be on top your a game
> here. and having a old mother is most likly why im having a hard time getting
> cuts to take. My mother is 7 month old and ive transplated 4 time, im going
> to just bud her out and start with new and go with your plan, healthy plants= healthy clones thanks again


Hope that sorts you out. 

I'm not sure I'd have a lot of hope for nor expect a lot from flowering the 7mo old mum. Cannabis plants are in fact annuals, so 7 mos is a big chunk of life for an individual plant's stem and rootmass- about 60-70 years to you & me. I change them out when they are in their '20s'. 

The fresh material regrown from a plant that has been cut back is indeed 'new' and won't display old age characters when used as a cutting. The mum's rootballs and stems eventually do sorta 'wear out,' becoming more susceptible to diseases/bugs, indicating a need for replacement. S'okay, you can have a new one anytime you want, in 6 days.


----------



## Evoke (Mar 11, 2008)

Wow, what an impressive read indeed. Completely inspired me. I had some thoughts along this path already and this just settled it for me. Question - would I be able to get by with 15cm square pots - about 3.5L?


----------



## rifishman (Mar 11, 2008)

AlB,
Quick question. When your clones are ready to go into flower, do you introduce them right into the flower room? Do you do it during a "lights off" cycle to allow them a little less trauma. I put a few clones (well rooted) into rockwool pots last night, during lights off, and this morning they were quite droopy.

I added water to the pots before putting them in to give the roots a little moisture from the top down. Not sure what I did wrong with these girls as the previous ones took straight away a few weeks back.

Any comments would be appreciated.


----------



## DaveM (Mar 11, 2008)

And another quick one from me........ Do your newly struck clones go into a propagator with the lid off ?? They are the biggest clones I have ever seen


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2008)

th3bigbad said:


> great thread bud. took me 8 bowls to read it all, but it was time well spent.


Thanks for that. 

After 8 cones, I hope you remember *none* of it. If you _*do*_ remember any of it, you've got crappy dope. 

Thanks for the compliment, nonetheless. 



Evoke said:


> Wow, what an impressive read indeed. Completely inspired me. I had some thoughts along this path already and this just settled it for me. Question - would I be able to get by with 15cm square pots - about 3.5L?


Sure, 150mm square pots would work fine. Square pots could be somewhat better than the traditional cylindrical pots in a square flood tray, as the rootballs can use some of the area otherwise occupied by empty spaces between cylindrical pots- but the difference wouldn't be much. 



rifishman said:


> AlB,
> Quick question. When your clones are ready to go into flower, do you introduce them right into the flower room?


Yep. 



> Do you do it during a "lights off" cycle to allow them a little less trauma.


Nope. Doesn't stress them at all. They're cannabis plants, not cameras. They don't usually care about abrupt changes in light cycle.



> I put a few clones (well rooted) into rockwool pots last night, during lights off, and this morning they were quite droopy.
> 
> I added water to the pots before putting them in to give the roots a little moisture from the top down. Not sure what I did wrong with these girls as the previous ones took straight away a few weeks back.


Hmm. That's a small mystery. 

You said that your clones were 'well rooted', but were the roots in your latest batch as well developed as these before you stuck them in under the big lights? These are at about day 12 after cutting.



Something changed between your batches. Just got to go back to first principles and check things against what they should be. 

What is your clonebox's air temp? What sort of lighting are you using? Did your media wind up damp or saturated after you watered? How long did the media in the difficult batch stay wet before requiring water again? 

If I were to put a clone into the flowering area under a 1000W light which only had 1-2 taproot tips showing through the bottom of the cube, I could understand why it would wilt- but you said your roots were well developed. There has to be a sufficient spray of developed roots to be able to supply the foliage with water when the demand increases, as it does when you put the clones under the big light.



DaveM said:


> And another quick one from me........ Do your newly struck clones go into a propagator with the lid off ?? They are the biggest clones I have ever seen


No lids. 

My clonebox is just an old plywood shipping container- even has an exhaust blower (controlled by a thermostat set for 26C) and an open, passive air intake hole. No attempt at all is made to seal the clonebox to keep the humidity high. Only temperature is controlled, limited to 26C max.



Humidomes are not generally necessary- in fact, they tend to keep things _too_ damp, causing fungal or other pathogen problems. 

Yes, the black plastic trays that my cubes are sitting in _*did*_ come from a set of humdomes, but I turfed out the clear plastic top covers many years ago. The very thin blow-moulded plastic trays I've retained from the humidome sets transfer heat very effectively from the heatmat into the RW cubes and keep the heatmat clean. 

If you have done everything correctly- sterile scalpel, sterile clone watering solution (H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L, pH adjust to 5.8 ), 45 degree angle cut on the stems and have kept your medium damp, never wet or saturated, clonebox air temp at 24-26C, there should be plenty of water uptake to keep your cuttings from wilting- without a humidome. 

I do run the lights in my clonebox on 18/6 for the first 24H the clones are in the box. I set the timer so that they get 6 hours of darkness as soon as I am done cutting the batch. That one-off dark cycle temporarily reduces water transpiration though the leaves and gives a chance for water uptake from the RW cubes through the stem cuts to begin. Once I'm satified all is well, the timer goes back to 24/0.

If I ever see a clone wilt (rare, happens to one or two cuttings every few batches), it's because something was amiss with my sterilisation. A wilty clone can usually be saved by re-cutting the stem tip and plugging it into a new RW cube which has been flushed with lots of plain water then dampened with fresh, sterile clone watering soln as described above. 

My clones _*are*_ huge compared to the advice you typically get from old grow guides, many which recommend taking tiny, thin-stemmed cuttings from lower branches. This might be useful advice if you are taking cuttings from plants you later intend to flower as you are using material for cuttings that won't be all that productive come harvest. Since I'm growing mother plants specifically to provide cuttings, that's a limitation I don't have. Old grow books often give advice based around growing full-sized plants, usually outdoors.



My clones are usually about 8-9" (200-230mm) tall from the tray bottom.

It is my experience that thicker stems (>5.5mm) root faster and much more profusely than those with very thin stems. Taller cuttings with thicker stems become bigger plants faster, important in a zero-veg-time SoG scenario.



The stack on the left all have stems of about 4mm dia or less. The stack on the right all are over 5.5mm dia.

See Photoessay: A batch of clones in rockwool for exhaustive details on how I do cuttings.


----------



## DaveM (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks, it looks like my head has truly risen from the sand, I feel a new wealth of information is readily available here to bring me out of the dark ages 

much appreciated.


----------



## tech209 (Mar 11, 2008)

wuts goin on al-b quick ? here:

im doin a soil SOG and was wonderin if you had the problem with the plants strechin when introduced into flowering from cloning in no veg time???? also you do recommend triming the leaves below the plant about 2-3 weeks into flowering corect??.........


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 11, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Thanks, it looks like my head has truly risen from the sand, I feel a new wealth of information is readily available here to bring me out of the dark ages
> 
> much appreciated.


Thanks for that. 

While I appreciate the glowing praise, I'm hesitant to claim any 'new art' here. SoG is well-known stuff and the 'Big Clone Theory' started from ideas from an old mate on Overgrow. However, defying the conventional wisdom of tiny cuttings with leaf blades cut in half, basking in 100% humidity micro-saunas is an intellectual capital product of the _Fuct 'Skunk' Works[SIZE=-1]&#8482;[/SIZE]_ R&D department. 



tech209 said:


> was wonderin if you had the problem with the plants strechin when introduced into flowering from cloning in no veg time????


No, but if I did, I'd be looking at the temp and humidity of the flowering area. I'd suspect excessively high temps in particular. Get a peak mem thermo/hygrometer in there and verify what's happening. Make sure you have a ballsy enough exhaust blower to shift the room's total air mass in 3-5 mins and that you are using the right kind of blower for your application. An axial blower won't like pushing air into a carbon filter, down a long duct or one with lots of 90 deg bends. Get a centrifugal for those situations. 



> also you do recommend triming the leaves below the plant about 2-3 weeks into flowering corect??.........




I trim off all branching, not just leaves, on the lower 1/3 of the plant. I do this twice, once at the end of wk1 of flowering and again sometime around the end of wk3. The idea is not to allow any branches more than about 1" long. 

After wk4, the plants usually stop any vegetative growth; they stop growing vertically and stop sending out branches, instead just bulking up the flowers.

You're basically growing a single stalk with buds attached directly to the mainstem. Fan leaves which are above the lower 1/3 should be preserved as much as possible. These are the plant's solar powered food factories and it is in your interest to keep them going as much as you can up to harvest.


----------



## tech209 (Mar 11, 2008)

thanx for the tips....as for streching during flowering....temp are about 76-78 most of the time....and humidity at 42%


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, 76-78 isn't bad, unless of course you're talking Celsius. 

76-78F is perfect, of course, as is 42%RH. 

Could low light be a problem? Aside from high temp, that's the only thing off the top of my head that I can think might cause elongated internodal spacing. 

A pic is worth 1000 here. You could start a thread about the stretch in the appropriate place and put up a few pix and a bit more detail. (edit - nevermind, found your thread, looking now).


----------



## smartfood (Mar 12, 2008)

Hey ABF, have you experimented with leaving just the fan leaves on the plant plus the top bud? Just pruning the potential new growth tips that grow above the fan leaves on the bottom 1/3, while leaving said fan leaves? As long as they don't obstruct air flow, you'd think the plants would have more 'solar panels' from which to pull energy from and apply it to the main cola. I'll be starting a setup like yours as soon as this harvest is complete and am eager to make the most out of it.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 12, 2008)

It occurs to me that there's one more very common cause of wilt in clones- and I totally missed mentioning it a cpl posts back.

It's incredibly easy to overwater rockwool cubes. A saturated cube has almost no air content- the water has displaced it. Root nodes need O2 to form. Overwet, saturated media conditions can also favour pathogens like pythium and fusarium. The result is stem rot and wilt occurring about 2-3 days after cutting. 

Media for clones should be just damp, never wet or saturated. 40mm RW cubes weigh 5g dry and 25-30g when properly 'damp' Heavier is too wet. 

I keep banging on about H2O2, but this is one of the best uses for it. 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L in cube pre-soak and clone watering solns will help prevent stem rot and thus wilt from pathogen infection. It also releases O2 in the root node zone within the cube. 

I can't bang home the point about overwet media enough. Overwet conds will cause slow rooting (typically 2 weeks or more), yellowing leaves, etc. If you're getting the watering amount and frequency right, your media never dries fully, cuttings never wilt and will strike first roots in 6-7 days with profuse root formation at 10-12 days. 

A heat mat really speeds things along and makes the process more reliable. Control of the air temp in a clone box isn't nearly as important as controlling the temp of the rootzone with a heat mat. I didn't even add the thermostat to my clonebox's exhaust fan until I'd been using it for about 5 years- I just ran it constantly to remove the heat from the 3 fluoro lamp ballasts. Controlling air temp range to 25.5-26.5 (as is when the thermostat is set for 26.0C) did help the uniformity of strike times across all cubes, making them all ready more or less at once instead of scattered over a few days.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 12, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hey ABF, have you experimented with leaving just the fan leaves on the plant plus the top bud? Just pruning the potential new growth tips that grow above the fan leaves on the bottom 1/3, while leaving said fan leaves? As long as they don't obstruct air flow, you'd think the plants would have more 'solar panels' from which to pull energy from and apply it to the main cola. I'll be starting a setup like yours as soon as this harvest is complete and am eager to make the most out of it.


Yes, I've tried leaving the lower fans on in the past. Even with osc circ fans going 24/7, these lowers often showed signs of high humidity stresses, were more prone to powdery mildew, etc. I can only guess this to be caused by being so close to the media surfaces, where there will be a fair amount of evaporation, possibly causing a very localised high humidity area. If my guess is right, the air circ restriction of the leaves themselves is causing the problem. 

I guess you could shorten branches that pop up on the lower 1/3 of the plant instead of removing them entirely, but remember that cannabis has an uneven bud size production habit; biggest ones are at the top of the mainstem and everything else gets progressively smaller and wispier as you move down the stalk. You're not losing anywhere near 1/3 of the yield by denuding the lower 1/3 of the plant, but you are saving hours of manicuring tiny little popcorn buds that normally yield sweet FA.


----------



## WhatDoYouWantFromLife (Mar 12, 2008)

Please excuse my ignorance this being my first post I hope I'm doing it right. Been reading this article for about a year now as a guest. I only have 1 question. For the granulated rockwool do you use absorbent or repellent or a mix of both ? I tried searching but couldn't find anything so again please forgive my stupidity.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 12, 2008)

WhatDoYouWantFromLife said:


> Please excuse my ignorance this being my first post I hope I'm doing it right. Been reading this article for about a year now as a guest. I only have 1 question. For the granulated rockwool do you use absorbent or repellent or a mix of both ? I tried searching but couldn't find anything so again please forgive my stupidity.


WDWYFL, welcome aboard, matey. 

Not a stupid question at all (and FYI, I don't bite noobs  ), but frankly, I wasn't aware that the RW floc came in 'absorbent' or 'repellent' types. The stuff I use is made by Grodan and they label the product as 'granulated rockwool' with no further specification to my knowledge. 

I don't completely fill my pots with rockwool anymore- I just pack about 25-50mm of floc in the bottom of each pot, filling the rest of the pot with Fytocell. The water weight in wet floc keeps the pots from floating and prevents the Fytocell crumbs from escaping through the pot's drain holes.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 12, 2008)

WDWYFL, I happen to be a distributor for hydroponics equipment. I checked one of my supplier catalogues and I find this notation under the listing for RW floc I buy:



> 20kg GRANULATED GRODAN (MED-ABS)


It'd be a pretty good guess to say that the sort they sell and hence the sort I have is 'absorbent.' 

I've always thought that this sort of floc holds too much water, prompting my shift to Fytocell. It's possible that a mix of absorbent and repellent RW floc might be a better solution to excessive absorbency of the Grodan floc than Fytocell. Fytocell has some serious drawbacks; it's messy, doesn't clump and it floats. 

I'll look into sourcing some repellent type floc and have a try. Thanks for asking this one. Perfect example of why I bother posting this stuff. I occasionally get great tips like this.


----------



## WhatDoYouWantFromLife (Mar 12, 2008)

Ok thanks for the help. Figured I'd try a 50/50 mix for a start then go from there.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 12, 2008)

al, what is the importance of keeping water temps down?

do you control your the temp of the water in all of your res'?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 12, 2008)

WhatDoYouWantFromLife said:


> Ok thanks for the help. Figured I'd try a 50/50 mix for a start then go from there.


Sounds like a plan. Let me know how you go. 



LoudBlunts said:


> al, what is the importance of keeping water temps down?
> 
> do you control your the temp of the water in all of your res'?


High water temp, above about 26-27C, will reduce the dissolved oxygen capacity of the water. 

I don't control my res temps. My roots are not dangling in the res. Moreover, I feel no need to check them as there's no way for my tanks to get any warmer than the air temp. The air from the very small, rubber diaphragm type (as opposed to piston type compressors which do generate a fair amount of heat) pumps is not appreciably warmed nor do my also very small water pumps introduce any significant amount of heat, given they are only running between 6 and 10 total minutes per day, in two runs. 

Water temp measurements are not terribly necessary in flood systems given the thermal dissipation capacity of already damp absorbent media and other factors like the tanks being below the trays, shielding them from direct light exposure. However, temp control can be critical in NFT, DWC or aero systems where the roots are constantly exposed to a flow of nutes from the res and where larger air and water pumps or exposure of the nute reservoirs to light may introduce a significant amount of heat to the nute solns.


----------



## panhead (Mar 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I trim off all branching, not just leaves, on the lower 1/3 of the plant. I do this twice, once at the end of wk1 of flowering and again sometime around the end of wk3. The idea is not to allow any branches more than about 1" long.
> 
> After wk4, the plants usually stop any vegetative growth; they stop growing vertically and stop sending out branches, instead just bulking up the flowers.
> 
> You're basically growing a single stalk with buds attached directly to the mainstem. Fan leaves which are above the lower 1/3 should be preserved as much as possible. These are the plant's solar powered food factories and it is in your interest to keep them going as much as you can up to harvest.


Hi al,dig this,i know you trim everything including fan leaves on the lower 1/3rd of the plants & ive read your reasoning for trimming the fan leaves also, but i ask is trimming the fan leaves really nessacary,in my rooms ive went to great lengths to emulate your system only using soil,ive also went to great lengths to control humidity,circulation & temp's,here's what im getting at,i can keep my rooms temps at a constant 72 to 80 degrees at the canopy or any temp in between,i can also hold the humidity levels at the canopy to 40% & at the plant base to 50% without even using the dehumidifier's.

With me being able to keep the humidity levels this low & stable & still be able to lower the humidity level even farther by running the dehumidifiers would you think leaving all the fan leaves will benifit the plants growth & flowering.

So far ive been trimming everything including the fan leaves on the lower 1/3 rd of the plants but reading your last few pages about why you do this got me thinking,if i could save these lower leaves without creating a humidity problem that it might be a great benifit.

Btw,i check my plants every other day when i visit the garden for mites,powdery mildew & bud rot.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 12, 2008)

Very good information here.. the trimming of the plan about a 1/3 of the way up is critical as they will be "stealing" nutes from the plant where than can be better used. Unless of course you have supplimented light to the sides of the plant.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sounds like a plan. Let me know how you go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so with that said...do you have a cheap alternative to chillers?


----------



## dertmagert (Mar 12, 2008)

yeah... ice cubes! 
DUUUUHHHHH!!


----------



## jaytee211 (Mar 12, 2008)

great setup...im trying to build a similar setup so i have a few questions:
how many gallons are necessary for a 3' x 3' tray?
what do you recommend for watering cycles for the first few weeks up until harverst?
how many airstones or bubble wands are needed in the reservoirs for a 3' x 3' tray?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 13, 2008)

panhead said:


> i ask is trimming the fan leaves really nessacary,
> [...]
> With me being able to keep the humidity levels this low & stable & still be able to lower the humidity level even farther by running the dehumidifiers would you think leaving all the fan leaves will benifit the plants growth & flowering.
> [...]
> So far ive been trimming everything including the fan leaves on the lower 1/3 rd of the plants but reading your last few pages about why you do this got me thinking,if i could save these lower leaves without creating a humidity problem that it might be a great benifit.


 If your plants are anything like mine, the fan leaves attached on the lower 1/3 of the mainstem would account for 4-6 leaves. I haven't tested the theory but I'll take a punt and suggest that preserving 4-6 fan leaves vs the potential restriction in airflow isn't a good trade. I think there's a greater benefit to all plants in improving air circ than what each will gain by preserving 4-6 lower fan leaves. 

Keeping a broad air path open beneath the mass of buds, restricted only by the stems, gives a nearly direct path for air from circ fans to get to all parts of the flowering mass. Ideally, you want to see circ fans make every leaf in the room flutter once at least every 30sec or so. 




Enigma said:


> Very good information here.. the trimming of the plan about a 1/3 of the way up is critical as they will be "stealing" nutes from the plant where than can be better used. Unless of course you have supplimented light to the sides of the plant.


 Thanks for the thanks. 

I don't think that the nutrient usage is as big an issue as the air circ restriction of leaving the lower fans on. 

Supplementary light isn't generally useful. Hanging CFLs or common tube fluoros beside overtall plants which are lighted from above with HPS is a bit like bolting a model airplane engine on the front bumper of your Ferrari. If the plants are so tall or dense that lower areas are suffering from low light, they haven't been pruned sufficiently or they were vegged before flowering. If a clone is just chucked from the clonebox in to the 12/12 area with no veg time in between, it will find its own best height by wk4. That finishing height will depend on the size of the lamp used for flowering. 1000W HPS lamps produce plants which finish about 33-36" (1m) tall, stopping gaining all their vert height in wk4 of 12/12. 



LoudBlunts said:


> so with that said...do you have a cheap alternative to chillers?





dertmagert said:


> yeah... ice cubes!
> DUUUUHHHHH!!


Well, heh, there you go. 

Me, I'd be tempted to put a 8-10m long coil of 1/2" copper or aluminium tubing in an old bar fridge or tuckerbox freezer and pump nutrient soln through it and back to the res. That'd cool it! A thermostat with a remote sensor in the nute soln could switch the bar fridge on & off as needed. 

However, I've seen Peltier effect coolers in the past, intended for fitting through the wall of a res tank, which I strongly suspect would be more efficient than a loop of copper tube in a bar fridge, certainly mechanically simpler.

If your res tanks run too warm, work out how the heat is getting in them and try to break that path. You may need to get pumps that permit mounting outside the res so that their motors cannot be in contact with the nute soln. Tanks can be insulated against exposure to direct light with pandafilm. If the thermal path is via very warm air temps caused by lighting, you'll be looking for a way to get those air temps down- cooltubes are very cost effective. 



jaytee211 said:


> great setup...im trying to build a similar setup so i have a few questions:
> how many gallons are necessary for a 3' x 3' tray?
> what do you recommend for watering cycles for the first few weeks up until harverst?
> how many airstones or bubble wands are needed in the reservoirs for a 3' x 3' tray?


My trays are pretty close to 3'x3', just a tick smaller (820mm^2). Each tray has a 125L (33 gal?) tank. When the trays flood (flood level 50mm), about 1/4 - 1/3 of the 125L tank volume is up in the tray. The volume of the 820mm x 820mm x 50mm flood area is 33.62 litres.

Your watering intervals will depend on a few factors; the media you're using, air temps and how effective your ventilation system is. If you have 
a mountain of ventilation capacity, you may find that the increased evaporation causes a need for more watering cycles. 

Of course, you'll only need to water during lights-on. With Fytocell media, I find I can flood the flowering plants 2x per lights-on cycle, at lights-on and again 2 hours before lights-off. My flood cycle durations vary as I have different sized pumps. Takes about 3-5 mins for a tray to be filled to the overflow tube level, depending on the pump in that particular tank. The small, cheap pumps are of course the slowest.

Flood systems can tolerate loss of tank aeration a lot better than DWC or similar systems, so a redundant or hot standby air pump and stone probably isn't necessary... 1 pump and stone per tank will do. 

However, I _*would *_strongly recommend that you keep a couple spare air pumps (or replacement diaphragms/flapper valves for rebuilding) on hand for the day that the one you're running now craps out. The diaphragms in these cheap pumps are usually natural rubber, which will dry-rot and perish in about 12-18 mos of continuous service, or faster if there's an ozonator in use in the area. O3 will advance rubber dry-rot dramatically.


----------



## potroast (Mar 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It'd be a pretty good guess to say that the sort they sell and hence the sort I have is 'absorbent.'
> 
> I'll look into sourcing some repellent type floc and have a try.



I remember hearing about some kinds of rockwool used for construction, maybe insulation, and that you shouldn't use it for hydro. First off, I'd want to know what they put into it to make it _repellent._

HTH


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 13, 2008)

300W Titanium Aquarium Heater Digital Controller MX1000 - eBay (item 380004113039 end time Mar-12-08 20:00:00 PDT)

alternative al?

im not sure....but im kinda puzzled on how an aquarium heater can keep things around 64F (rough estimate of 18c)

what you think? worth a shot?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 13, 2008)

IceProbe Thermoelectric Water Cooling Device :: CoolWorks Inc

looks cool too!


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 13, 2008)

do you think someone needs to set up a A/C unit. I am considering buying a portable AC unit at the hydro store.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 13, 2008)

potroast said:


> I remember hearing about some kinds of rockwool used for construction, maybe insulation, and that you shouldn't use it for hydro. First off, I'd want to know what they put into it to make it _repellent._
> 
> HTH


Good point, pottie. However, the Grodan product is marketed for horticulture, not building insulation. I would hope there's nothing bioactive in it. Wouldn't hurt to get a look at the MSDS for the product.



LoudBlunts said:


> 300W Titanium Aquarium Heater Digital Controller MX1000 - eBay (item 380004113039 end time Mar-12-08 20:00:00 PDT)
> 
> alternative al?
> 
> ...


Dunno, do you need to heat or cool your tank? This device is a thermostat for a heater. 



LoudBlunts said:


> IceProbe Thermoelectric Water Cooling Device :: CoolWorks Inc
> 
> looks cool too!


This is the Peltier Effect (PE) cooling device I was talking about. PE devices are stacks of semiconductor material that have the ability to move heat directionally from one side of the device to the other, depending on the direction of DC current flow. If you reverse the current to the IceProbe, it will warm the water. I'd inspect the specs for the device closely before investing in one. Find out how much water it can be expected to cool. Get ready to go back to your HS science to work out how many joules you need to shift to get the temp you want. 

The bar fridge & metal tubing coil thing may not be so nutty when you figure the IceProbe consumes only about 50W and costs about $USD110. I bet I could shift a lot more joules through the bar fridge and I bet I could get an old one for about the price of the IceProbe. I could cool another tank with a second coil in my old fridge. 



bigal10 said:


> do you think someone needs to set up a A/C unit. I am considering buying a portable AC unit at the hydro store.


If you're going to get a portable AC unit, get a split system type that has a compressor unit that goes outside (or at least outside the grow). These are HUGELY more efficient than the one-piece portables that duct waste heat out a window through a dryer-vent sized (120mm) flex hose. Most newer 1-piece portables recycle their condensate to improve cooling, some give you a way to add distilled water. If you look at a 2nd hand unit, assure that tap water was never used in the unit. The minerals will crust up the evaporator and make it useless. The cheapest and most effective 'portable' aircon units are the old standard window mount types.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 13, 2008)

One note about A/C- conventional wisdom says it sucks a lot of power and is very expensive to run. Ya know what? Conventional wisdom is spot on. A/C is a LAST RESORT measure and portable A/C units are the very last in your line of options. The least efficient single unit portables would be working hard to cool a grow with a non-cooltubed 400-600HPS. A/C becomes your only choice when the air you can draw in is already hotter than your 24-26C range, such as is the lot for the poor sods in Queensland, Tejas and S Cowlifornia.

Cooltubes are a big bang for the cooling buck and should be considered long before A/C. If you can get intake air no warmer than 23-24C, run cooltubes, locate ballasts outside the room's airmass and have otherwise adequate ventilation, you stand a pretty good chance of maintaining the 24-26C range, even in a fairly small (500cu ft) room running a couple 1000W HPS.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> One note about A/C- conventional wisdom says it sucks a lot of power and is very expensive to run. Ya know what? Conventional wisdom is spot on. A/C is a LAST RESORT measure and portable A/C units are the very last in your line of options. The least efficient single unit portables would be working hard to cool a grow with a non-cooltubed 400-600HPS. A/C becomes your only choice when the air you can draw in is already hotter than your 24-26C range, such as is the lot for the poor sods in Queensland, Tejas and S Cowlifornia.
> 
> Cooltubes are a big bang for the cooling buck and should be considered long before A/C. If you can get intake air no warmer than 23-24C, run cooltubes, locate ballasts outside the room's airmass and have otherwise adequate ventilation, you stand a pretty good chance of maintaining the 24-26C range, even in a fairly small (500cu ft) room running a couple 1000W HPS.


hey al i got air comin fresh from out side and headin back out, i do have cooltubes available but i live in the north and temps go from -10c in winter to +30c in summer. will really good circulation b good enuf to keep the temp kind of stable? i dunno if i should use the cool tubes because its cold rite now and the room could get probably down to 10-14c at nite with no light on.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 13, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> hey al i got air comin fresh from out side and headin back out, i do have cooltubes available but i live in the north and temps go from -10c in winter to +30c in summer. will really good circulation b good enuf to keep the temp kind of stable? i dunno if i should use the cool tubes because its cold rite now and the room could get probably down to 10-14c at nite with no light on.


I can make some general suggestions but without seeing your op in entirety, it's hard for me to tell you what your ultimate solution is. 

If you are keeping your temps bang-on between 24-26C in your winter, you can do without cooltubes. However, when summer comes for you, your conditions will probably change.

I'm going to be in your boat in about 3.5 months. The ambient air available to draw into my op drops to as low as 10-12C. I will be adding "Y" pipes to the inlet and exhaust from my cooltubes. With the appropriate air path for the season blocked off, the Y pipes will permit either sourcing and dumping air outside the op (as it is now in my summertime) or sourcing and dumping air within the grow op airmass to provide heat to keep the room above 16-18C. 

I rely on my dehumidifier to add a little bit of heat to the room during lights-off in winter. Keeps the lights-off temp at least above 16C.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If your plants are anything like mine, the fan leaves attached on the lower 1/3 of the mainstem would account for 4-6 leaves. I haven't tested the theory but I'll take a punt and suggest that preserving 4-6 fan leaves vs the potential restriction in airflow isn't a good trade. I think there's a greater benefit to all plants in improving air circ than what each will gain by preserving 4-6 lower fan leaves.
> 
> Keeping a broad air path open beneath the mass of buds, restricted only by the stems, gives a nearly direct path for air from circ fans to get to all parts of the flowering mass. Ideally, you want to see circ fans make every leaf in the room flutter once at least every 30sec or so.
> 
> ...


The coiled copper in the nute tank that you are referring to for a chiller is used in brewing ALE. It is called a wort chiller and a premade one and can be purchased at a brew supply shop. How they are used in brewing beer is that the 3/8 coiled copper tubing is put into the vat of beer wort and chilled water is circulated through the copper. The water circulating through the copper acts as a refrigerant medium and removes the latent heat form the beer wort to cool it quickly. It would work the same for your nutes. My 2 hobbies are brewing Ale and growing ganja. Hops Beer Wine Brewing Supplies Equipment and http://www.strandbrewers.org/techinfo/ Hopefully one day i will find a way to combine the two and make a super ganja brew.. lol.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 13, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> The coiled copper in the nute tank that you are referring to for a chiller is used in brewing ALE. It is called a wort chiller and a premade one and can be purchased at a brew supply shop. How they are used in brewing beer is that the 3/8 coiled copper tubing is put into the vat of beer wort and chilled water is circulated through the copper. The water circulating through the copper acts as a refrigerant medium and removes the latent heat form the beer wort to cool it quickly. It would work the same for your nutes.


Cool! That wasn't exactly what I had in mind, but it's pretty darn close. I was thinking about pumping the nute soln itself through a coil of tubing which had been placed in a fridge, instead of placing the coil in the nute soln. Thought about 1/2" tubing as that's the ID of most aquarium pump outlets and garden hose. 

The wort chiller would pretty obviously do the same thing, but not circulating the nutes, rather an intermediate coolant soln. I think it may be more somewhat more efficient to directly cool the nute soln rather than exchange heat with a coolant soln, but surely either would work.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 13, 2008)

so on a 1000watter what cfm size fan do you recommend?

i used to use a 4" on her....i think it was somewhere around 200cfm, do you think i should upgrade if im in hotter climates? especially in a cab huh?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 13, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> so on a 1000watter what cfm size fan do you recommend?


for what sized room?



> i used to use a 4" on her....i think it was somewhere around 200cfm, do you think i should upgrade if im in hotter climates? especially in a cab huh?


Oh, do you mean for the cooltube? Any 150mm axial.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 13, 2008)

that light is in a cab. separate venting for room and light


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 13, 2008)

If there's a cooltube independently handling the heat from the lights, the ventilation system should be able to move the volume of the room in about 3 mins. In example, a 500cu ft room needs a blower that can move (500cu ft / 3min) 166CFM or more. It's one of the rare cases in cannabis growing where more is absolutely better.

Just about any 150mm axial blower will do for the cooltube, unless the ducting is longer than about 6m or has several sharp bends, where a centrifugal is a better choice.

In pre-installation tests with a 1000W HPS in a cooltube, with an Allvent A60 axial blower fitted without any duct to the cooltube, the output temp was 6.6C higher on the output end of the tube. With 3m of straight duct installed, the rise was 7.1C. When installed in my op, with the duct line stretched out to about 5m and with two 90 deg bends, the rise was 7.7C. As obstructions to airflow are introduced, the flow rate decreases and the air is in the cooltube for a slightly longer period, picking up more heat energy. However, the reduced flow rate also allows the Pyrex tube itself to pick up more heat, which it convects into the room airmass. 

If making up your mind how to route a cooltube duct, your best choice is the one which yields the lowest EGT, thusly keeping the cooltube's glass as cool as possible.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 13, 2008)

well i have a 200cfm fan on the 1000watter....not too much of a problem now.

im just thinking about summer. especially if i JUST missed the temp by a few degrees. i guess it couldnt hurt to upgrade my 4" to a 6" on the fan to keep that light nice and cool


you agree sir?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 14, 2008)

200cfm is plenty for a cooltube with a single 1000.

The Allvent A60, 150mm unit I am using on my pair of inline cooltubes which house a pair of 1000s is rated 192CFM. 

You can work out the correct CFM size of the separate exhaust blower you should be running to vent the op by dividing your room size in cu ft by 3.


----------



## southfloridasean (Mar 14, 2008)

Al where are you exhausting your cool tubes to? Are you exhausting to the outdoors or to the attic?


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 14, 2008)

southfloridasean said:


> Al where are you exhausting your cool tubes to? Are you exhausting to the outdoors or to the attic?


i know im not al b, but im pretty sure he said his intake was from outside and hes also exhausting the air outside too! it was some pages back somewhere in this never ending thread! sorry al, you can yell at me if you want! lol heh


----------



## fromagebleu (Mar 14, 2008)

Thanks, Fuct, this is information I have really needed. I have a tiny space - about 5x6 feet, financial constraints, health issues, but could probably do two plants every two weeks with the right set-up. That's about 3/4 oz average per plant? I suppose it depends on the variety. But that's probably at least a couple of ounces per month as I calculate it. 

This is my first grow (sort of lumped together with a second since I only got one female from seven seeds in my first) Can I turn my blooming OB into a clone mother when she is done blooming? How long would it take to go back to veg and be usable for cloning? I don't want to take one of my three pre-blooming females for a mother because I badly need stash. But suddenly maybe a better answer comes to me - I could clone from a lower branch of the largest female seedling and put it back into veg, right? And then keep it there, and when I am close to having the room, start clones from that. Am I thinking straight about this, noob that I am?


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 14, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> i know im not al b, but im pretty sure he said his intake was from outside and hes also exhausting the air outside too! it was some pages back somewhere in this never ending thread! sorry al, you can yell at me if you want! lol heh


The cool tubes i have seen are water cooled and they work very well but you do have to have a small separate rez and pump to circulate the water through the hood.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 14, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> The cool tubes i have seen are water cooled and they work very well but you do have to have a small separate rez and pump to circulate the water through the hood.


you dont necessarily have to watercool a cooltube to keep it cool


----------



## Enigma (Mar 14, 2008)

Hey Al, I gotta quik question for ya.

How small can the net pots for clones get? 

I'm thinking a 6" tall clone in a 2-3" pot sunk in a 4" PVC tube should hold enough for an aero op. I'm really trying to squeeze things into a 4'x4' area.

Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2008)

southfloridasean said:


> Al where are you exhausting your cool tubes to? Are you exhausting to the outdoors or to the attic?


I have a very unusual installation because I have a very unusual house. The op both sources air from and vents into a crawl space under the house. That crawl space happens to be the attic for the op, as it is above it. Is my op in a cave? Pretty darn close. It IS under the house and half its walls are naked bedrock. It'd be nearly impossible to explain properly without showing you photos of how my house is built... and _how_ it is built is a deadly obvious clue as to _where_ it is built... so I can't really put that sort of detail online here. 

The volume of the crawlspace airmass is about 6000 cu ft. As bedrock is exposed in this crawlspace, the air temp in the crawlspace is between 14C-21C all year round. The large, 6000cu ft airmass soaks up the heat that I dump in the crawlspace and sinks it in the exposed bedrock. 



We TaRdED said:


> i know im not al b, but im pretty sure he said his intake was from outside and hes also exhausting the air outside too! it was some pages back somewhere in this never ending thread! sorry al, you can yell at me if you want! lol heh


My actual comment was: 

"I did opt for a closed loop, drawing cooling air for the tubes from outside the room's airmass and also dumping outside."

I intended to convey that the cooltubes get and dump their air outside the growroom's airmass- but not necessarily to outdoors _per se_.

OK, I'm yelling at you. Please don't fill in my blanks unless you're quoting from something I wrote. Mind, even that isn't an entirely safe bet. Sometimes I've changed a process or something... and may not have issued the ECN (engineering change notice) as yet!



fromagebleu said:


> Thanks, Fuct, this is information I have really needed. I have a tiny space - about 5x6 feet, financial constraints, health issues, but could probably do two plants every two weeks with the right set-up. That's about 3/4 oz average per plant? I suppose it depends on the variety. But that's probably at least a couple of ounces per month as I calculate it.


Depends as much on the op and you as the DNA, but good genes put you miles ahead. If the op maintains a 24-26C @ 30-50% RH and you are consistent in your maintenance regime, 3/4oz per (presuming 400HPS flowering 8 indica dominant hybrid plants) is probably low once you're in the swing of things. 



> This is my first grow (sort of lumped together with a second since I only got one female from seven seeds in my first) Can I turn my blooming OB into a clone mother when she is done blooming? How long would it take to go back to veg and be usable for cloning? I don't want to take one of my three pre-blooming females for a mother because I badly need stash. But suddenly maybe a better answer comes to me - I could clone from a lower branch of the largest female seedling and put it back into veg, right? And then keep it there, and when I am close to having the room, start clones from that. Am I thinking straight about this, noob that I am?


Revegging a plant previously in flower takes a LONG time, 6-8 weeks before growth fully returns to a normal vegetative habit. If you think you're low on weed now, you'll be much more annoyed while waiting for a plant to reveg. 

Your best bet is to take cuttings from your plants which you are keeping in veg at present and establish the mum/s you need.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> The cool tubes i have seen are water cooled and they work very well but you do have to have a small separate rez and pump to circulate the water through the hood.


 I'm sure water cooled tubes would work very well, but if given the choice between air cooled and water cooled cooltubes, I'd pick the air cooled type every time on the basis of reliability and low maintenance. 

Water cooled types would require tubing with lots of connections, a pump capable of sufficient head (lift) to get water from the tank to the cooltube and then would require some sort of fungal inhibitor in the res to keep anything from growing in the cooling system. 

The only maintenance required with air cooled cooltubes is dusting out the cooltube and cleaning with window cleaner every couple of months. No tanks to fill, no tubing connections to leak, no pump to fail- and water pumps are lots and _*LOTS*_ less reliable than a 150mm axial blower.



Enigma said:


> Hey Al, I gotta quik question for ya.
> 
> How small can the net pots for clones get?
> 
> I'm thinking a 6" tall clone in a 2-3" pot sunk in a 4" PVC tube should hold enough for an aero op. I'm really trying to squeeze things into a 4'x4' area.


Having a hard time visualising what you want to do, sorry.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Having a hard time visualising what you want to do, sorry.


 
Ok, here is some more detail:

4' x 4' floor space

6.5' height

Using 10 4" PVC square fence posts horizontally. Installing 3-3.5" net pots in a aero op. Squeezing every inch out of this space for clones not taller than 6" when transplanted. This way there will be new smoke every 1-2 weeks.

Your thoughts?



Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Ok, here is some more detail:
> 
> 4' x 4' floor space
> 
> ...


Ah, ok, I see what you're up to. 

The only drawback I can see is that plants likely won't be mobile within the op. They will have to stay put until harvest as their rootmasses will probably knit in your 100mm/4" square aero chamber. Even if you take some measures to stop knitting, roots growing without media are rather easy to damage and won't like being moved. It's really handy to be able to move plants around in an op to even out growth and for plant maintenance. 

I think what you will end up with will work great, but will be classifiable a bit more accurately as NFT rather than aero. 

The main difference between aero, DWC and NFT is the water level. 

True aero systems use root chambers tall enough to keep the roots from dipping into pooled nute soln below them. The roots are irrigated only by sprayers or (far preferably) by a nute mist created with air stones in a pool of nutes below the roots and contained in a rather large chamber. 

NFT uses a very shallow water level in a long channel or tube which is sloped to allow water to drain out the other end from the feed. 

DWC submerges the roots fully in a constantly aerated solution. 

In a 4" square tube, it'll make little difference whether you have sprayers spaced between netpots or if you just feed nute soln at one end of the square pipe and let it gravity feed down the tube. 

Whether operated as aero or NFT, handwatering the netpots of clay pellets from the top will be needed for the first 1-2 weeks or until roots are well through the netpot bottoms and can contact either a sprayed or gravity fed stream of nutes.

If you want to do aero, I'd consider using something a larger than 4" square tube for the aero chamber- perhaps 150mm or larger round PVC stormdrain pipe; something large enough to have a couple inches of water pooled in the bottom and some airstones/bubble curtains in the pooled nute soln to create the mist. The tubes would have to be fed from a nute res to have adequate reserves for a couple of weeks tank life.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 15, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Ok, here is some more detail:
> 
> 4' x 4' floor space
> 
> ...


i thought about the same thing, but you have to keep the tds at a intermediate level, as not to over fert your little clones and keep it high enough to provide sufficient nutes to the older plants. whats your thoughts on that? im no expert, but thats one flaw i can see, maybe its not a big problem, let me know what you think. al b fuct, you can answer that too. ty guys

also you might have some funky light levels going on, with the heights of the lights if you doing it all in the same entity. the smaller the unit, the hairier it would seem to be.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2008)

Since I failed to do so in the last post, I really have to reiterate my hatred for any hydro system which pumps nutrient solution through a small aperture like a sprayer or mister. These critters will crust up with nute salts unless cleaned frequently, about every other day. 

If your system is organised so you can't see the water spray action, you'll have to pull each sprayer out to check and clean them. 

I've said it lots of times- I'm a stoned slacker. I don't really want to work very hard on my op. I want to be able to leave it for at least 3-4 days at a time if I get a slack-attack.  

Flood systems do not push nutes through small apertures and simply can't clog. Plants in pots of absorbent media have a constant backup water supply and thus are much more tolerant of water pump failures than medialess systems. Flood systems can go weeks without tank aeration but work lots better with it than without. 

However, flood systems with plants in pots of absorbent media do not allow maximum oxygenation of roots, particularly in highly absorbent media like rockwool floc, which can hold so much water that the water can lose all its dissolved O2 before the plant can soak up all the water in the media. This is why I switched to the much less absorbent Fytocell material. I sacrificed _*some*_ water supply backup time to permit more frequent flooding with oxygenated nutes. 

Yes, aero, NFT and DWC all have the potential to outyield pots of absorbent media in a flood system. However, the medialess systems also can be prone to failures which can cause loss of an entire batch of plants. Takes a long time for the somewhat reduced yields from a pot-based flood system to equal the loss of an entire batch. 

If you have the attention span and energy for the frequent checks required, medialess systems are for you. If you're as slack as I am, something with some safeties built in might better at the compromise of absolute max yield per square foot.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> i thought about the same thing, but you have to keep the tds at a intermediate level, as not to over fert your little clones and keep it high enough to provide sufficient nutes to the older plants. whats your thoughts on that? im no expert, but thats one flaw i can see, maybe its not a big problem, let me know what you think. al b fuct, you can answer that too. ty guys


I run all my tanks at 1400ppm, even tank 1, which supplies clones just put in to the flowering area. They don't seem to care about jumping from the pH adjusted water with no nutes they were getting in the clonebox to the 1400ppm flowering nute soln. 



> also you might have some funky light levels going on, with the heights of the lights if you doing it all in the same entity. the smaller the unit, the hairier it would seem to be.


This is why it's nice to have plants in pots of media. Easy to pick them up and move them around and put them in positions closer to the light if need be. If you're using a double parabola/batwing reflector, you can spread light out really rather evenly over a rectangular growing space, but the space just below the lamp tube will always get the most intense light.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 15, 2008)

ive heard that ppl just leave their pumps going 24/7 through the misters and they said that they have never had a clogged jet as long as you keep spraying nute solution through it. and if you going to stop using the system for w/e reason, flush it with water real good and/or use some flushing agent. any thoughts abuot that al? thanks my aussie friend!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 15, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> ive heard that ppl just leave their pumps going 24/7 through the misters and they said that they have never had a clogged jet as long as you keep spraying nute solution through it. and if you going to stop using the system for w/e reason, flush it with water real good and/or use some flushing agent. any thoughts abuot that al? thanks my aussie friend!


Flowering systems _*should*_ be without irrigation when the lights are off, so there's 12h/day that the sprayers can dry out. Watering during lights-off can invite root probs, but a lot of nute soln oxygenation should prevent too many problems in that regard. 

I agree that running the sprayers continuously would reduce the likelihood of clogs. However, you should have a filter on the pump inlet to prevent precipitated nute salts or other particulates present in the reservoir from being pumped into the spray apertures.

If one must flush a sprayer based system, to truly remove all minerals, one would have to use distilled water. Most municipal tapwater has enough dissolved mineral content to eventually create problems all by itself.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 15, 2008)

so you *should* let the roots just sit in the pipe with no solution for 12 hours? seems like they could dry out too much???? i guess it depends on your setup. aero is supposed to supply the most oxygen so there should be no problems with DO in the NFT effected water where the roots mainly reside in a pipe system. im sure it would help keeping the DO up if your keeping res temps low too!

i have 30ppm from the tap. thats close enough to distilled right?

im planning on putting my whole pump in a filter bag.. that should do the job.

thanks al


----------



## Enigma (Mar 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Ah, ok, I see what you're up to.
> 
> The only drawback I can see is that plants likely won't be mobile within the op. They will have to stay put until harvest as their rootmasses will probably knit in your 100mm/4" square aero chamber. Even if you take some measures to stop knitting, roots growing without media are rather easy to damage and won't like being moved. It's really handy to be able to move plants around in an op to even out growth and for plant maintenance.
> 
> ...


I've seen a few aero op's with root masses long enough to go anywhere. The "Space Shuttle" thread proves that easily. These would be set in place and left to complete thier flowering phase with a 400w MH and 600w HPS combination for the entire 4x4 space.

The plan is to have one 50 gal res (about 40-45 gal available), a stone for oxygen, aquarium pump (filtered) to pull nutes from res to sprayers between the net pots, the 'table' would be at a slant to collect run-off to feed back into res. with a grand total of about 120 clones at any given time (10 per 1-2 weeks).

I'm going to hit the drafting table again and see what can fit with 6" pipes. Due to constraints only one lighting apparatus can be used in such a confined space due to heat and costs.

I've got experience with DWC with full growth (veg - flower) and I'm interested to see what can be accomplished with something this intricate and compact.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 15, 2008)

Enigma said:


> These would be set in place and left to complete thier flowering phase with a 400w MH and 600w HPS combination for the entire 4x4 space.
> 
> with a grand total of about 120 clones at any given time (10 per 1-2 weeks).
> 
> only one lighting apparatus can be used in such a confined space due to heat and costs.


if im following you correctly, you want to fit 120 plants in a 4x4 area and only lite by one apparatus? wow, talking about SOG, i would love to see that  
what are you basing your areo plans on? maybe you can give me some pointers!


----------



## Enigma (Mar 15, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> if im following you correctly, you want to fit 120 plants in a 4x4 area and only lite by one apparatus? wow, talking about SOG, i would love to see that
> what are you basing your areo plans on? maybe you can give me some pointers!


 
It is simply 4" x 4" pvc fence posts, 4" net pots (120), 400w MH and 600w HPS, 50 gal res (40-45 gal available), the necessary aero supplies, organic nutes, ect.

I'm also working on a 6" design that will allow for more roots and less plants (about half).. I'm still doing research and collecting findings on what has already been done and what works.

When I finally make a decision on what works best I will post some pics of the build in progress. Everything from supplies to construction and utilization.

Normally I give to get. Since everything is free to read here I am getting to give.



Enigma


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 16, 2008)

kool enigma! good luck with your build, i would def like to check it out! shoot me a PM when you start your journal just in case i overlook it!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> so you *should* let the roots just sit in the pipe with no solution for 12 hours? seems like they could dry out too much???? i guess it depends on your setup.
> 
> [...]
> 
> i have 30ppm from the tap. thats close enough to distilled right?


With lights off, transpiration all but ceases. The moisture in the rootmass is sufficient to get the plants through the 'night.'

30ppm says that there's SOME dissolved minerals, though you won't know what they are with your EC meter. Their conductivity depends upon what the elements dissolved in your water really are. A rather large amount of a mineral without a lot of free electrons (i.e. limestone) won't cause a high ppm reading, as would ionic compounds like most mineral salts.

If it will leave a water spot on your car's paint, it'll leave mineral residue elsewhere, too. If you really want to remove all minerals from the system to avoid leaving any residue, distilled water is the go.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> With lights off, transpiration all but ceases. The moisture in the rootmass is sufficient to get the plants through the 'night.'
> 
> 30ppm says that there's SOME dissolved minerals, though you won't know what they are with your EC meter. Their conductivity depends upon what the elements dissolved in your water really are. A rather large amount of a mineral without a lot of free electrons (i.e. limestone) won't cause a high ppm reading, as would ionic compounds like most mineral salts.
> 
> If it will leave a water spot on your car's paint, it'll leave mineral residue elsewhere, too. If you really want to remove all minerals from the system to avoid leaving any residue, distilled water is the go.


Do you buy distilled water or do you distill your own?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Do you buy distilled water or do you distill your own?


I don't have small sprayers to clean! 

However, I do have a dehumidifier which yields about 10L/day of free distilled water if I want it for anything.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 16, 2008)

have you ever ate kangaroo? if so how does it taste? 

also do you have kangaroo's frolicking in your back yard? 

ok you can yell at me now al! lol i love you.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I don't have small sprayers to clean!
> 
> However, I do have a dehumidifier which yields about 10L/day of free distilled water if I want it for anything.


Just wondering, I know a lot of people use distilled for any op. It just sounded like you did too. I figured it would be easier to distill at home than to buy it all the time.. maybe even use a Brita filter...

Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> have you ever ate kangaroo? if so how does it taste?


No. Oral sex with a kangaroo is banned in all Australian states and territories.

Ever ate bald eagle? Do they taste like chicken? 

Any trouble getting their little knickers off? 



> also do you have kangaroo's frolicking in your back yard?


Of course. All that and worse. I have a gang of young, tough, juvenile delinquent wombats- and they won't turn their damn stereos down. There is little worse than the heartbreak of WOMBATS. 



Enigma said:


> Just wondering, I know a lot of people use distilled for any op. It just sounded like you did too. I figured it would be easier to distill at home than to buy it all the time.. maybe even use a Brita filter...


Cannabis plants don't need distilled (or other fancy purification method e.g. RO) water. Chlorination in municipal water supplies not only does not hurt plants, it is the friend of the indoor grower. Chlorination suppresses pathogens for 2-4 days in an open nute tank, until the chlorine evaporates from the solution. 

Anyone who tells you chlorine hurts cannabis plants or that municipal drinking water must be purified before use in a cannabis grow frankly doesn't know WTF they're talking about. Kinda makes you wonder how cannabis plants got on with that nasty ol' *rainwater* for a few hundred thousand years before _teh w33d b4R0ns_ got hold of a handful of seeds...

If you've ever used a Brita filter, you know how unbelievably slow they are. If I had to filter 550 litres of water through a Brita each time I changed up my tanks, I'd have to start 2 weeks before I needed it, kid you not.

In more than 20 years of doing this, I have never have seen a problem in an op caused by municipal drinking water. The only time I've _*ever*_ seen water quality cause problems in a hydroponic op was when the water came from a bore with a lot of dissolved minerals.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Cannabis plants don't need distilled (or other fancy purification method e.g. RO) water. Chlorination in municipal water supplies not only does not hurt plants, it is the friend of the indoor grower. Chlorination suppresses pathogens for 2-4 days in an open nute tank, until the chlorine evaporates from the solution.
> 
> Anyone who tells you chlorine hurts cannabis plants or that municipal drinking water must be purified before use in a cannabis grow frankly doesn't know WTF they're talking about. Kinda makes you wonder how cannabis plants got on with that nasty ol' *rainwater* for a few hundred thousand years before _teh w33d b4R0ns_ got hold of a handful of seeds...
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I thought. The minerals are what concerns me.

I figure if I could build a distiller I'd be in business.. it seems simple enough.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 16, 2008)

I've uploaded a some pics of two designs I'm thinking about.. could you give me some feedback Al B.?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 16, 2008)

so al, how do you accurately read the water? what is the ppm of your water out the faucet?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2008)

Enigma said:


> That's exactly what I thought. The minerals are what concerns me.
> 
> I figure if I could build a distiller I'd be in business.. it seems simple enough.


By the time you get done building and monkeying around with a distiller for water, you could have bought a dehumidifier- which does you a big favour in the flowering area and gives you free distilled water to boot. 



Enigma said:


> I've uploaded a some pics of two designs I'm thinking about.. could you give me some feedback Al B.?


k, will look later, up to my nose in it today. 



LoudBlunts said:


> so al, how do you accurately read the water? what is the ppm of your water out the faucet?


My municipal tapwater is about 20-50ppm and usually pH 7.1, sometimes jumps to 8 after heavy rains; my water util may be adding extra chlorine to deal with microbes and pathogens washed out of the catchments after particularly heavy rain, accounting for the pH bump. 

30ppm is insignificant enough to not bother compensating for in your EC measurements of your nute soln. Stop worrying. 

I wouldn't worry about your tapwater unless you're on a bore. Bore water quality varies a LOT. It may have excessive salinity or dissolved limestone. Should be tested at least annually if used for drinking; more often if there's any construction or large industry nearby or up the catchment from you. 

If on muni water, your only concern will usually be a lot of dissolved limestone ('hard' water). The midwestern US is known for tapwater so hard it's almost crunchy.  You wind up buying a new water heater about every 5 years.

If either is the case, a high pH will reveal the high limestone content and will be corrected for when you adjust the pH. If you have a bore which is excessively saline (may show up as a way high EC - 200-250ppm or more out of the tap), you probably shouldn't put it on plants- but then you shouldn't be drinking much of it, either. 

If you have any questions about the quality of bore water if you have it, your local council can refer you to testing agencies.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 16, 2008)

Would a simple filter before the pump be sufficient?


----------



## FrostickZero (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm trying to get a harvest every 1 week but right now I am doing clones so that I can do a harvest every week but one day I'm gona try to get a harvest every day


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 16, 2008)

lmao....such high hopes for those cfls huh?


----------



## FrostickZero (Mar 16, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> lmao....such high hopes for those cfls huh?


oh I'm going to change them a bit, I'm just using red ones because they ahd them on sale and now I'm going to be buying 6400k CFLs


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 17, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Would a simple filter before the pump be sufficient?


Filtration will remove solid particulate matter in suspension in a solution but is ineffective against dissolved solids. 



FrostickZero said:


> I'm trying to get a harvest every 1 week but right now I am doing clones so that I can do a harvest every week but one day I'm gona try to get a harvest every day



Slacker. 

If you had your shit together, you could be getting a harvest every 15 fuckin' _*minutes.*_ 

I don't wanna see *pix* from your oh-so-frequently productive op- I want _*video*_... from a 3000fps high-speed cam. 



LoudBlunts said:


> lmao....such high hopes for those cfls huh?


CFLs are great stuff for applications where you need low-intensity light, such as cloning and slow-vegging mums. They are not suitable for flowering, at least if you expect dense, heavy buddage. 

For the ventilation or stealth challenged, CFLs may make the difference between flowering a very small amt of poor to ordinary quality bud or none at all. 

For flowering cannabis, HPS is the tool for the job. If you think you need the low power consumption of CFL for a micro op, what you _really_ need is a low wattage HPS. The ittybitty HPS toobs are available in 60, 75, 100, 150 and 250W as accent or security lighting from hdwe or lighting speciality stores- and any one of those will beat the yield of twice the wattage of CFLs, with better quality to boot.

The fabled PC cabinet grow has been attempted with CFLs... it actually could work with a clever arrangement of a low wattage HPS in a home-made cooltube. Big fuckin' ups to the joker who cuts up a pickle jar for a cooltube over a 75W and grows in a friggin' shoebox.


----------



## FrostickZero (Mar 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Filtration will remove solid particulate matter in suspension in a solution but is ineffective against dissolved solids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I get $400 soon so I'm deff gona be investing into it and for the vid I can do it I just have to charge my batteries for it and I'll post em up for you, but I dk where or how I can so if you can help me out with that then I'll gladly post em up


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 17, 2008)

Hey AL.B , do the gold spots on the leaves look like the beginning of K deficiency or nute burn to you. These plants are 3 weeks from seed and hopefully are going to be my mothers if they turn out to be females. Once they get to 24" tall i plan to start taking clones off of them to flower in my 2x2 flood and drain tray under a 400w Super HPS. I haven't been able to match up these gold spots to anything in my reference books or on this site? I use FoxFarm nutes with Liquid Carma and SubCulture and i use distilled water with a pH of 5.8 and the ppm 580. I keep my fans and ventilation on 24-7. The temp in the Homebox ranges from 78-84 F with lights on a veg cycle and at night temps range from 70-74 F. The humidity stays 30-35%


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

FZ, you've had your fun dicking up the thread. Joke's over. Now go outside and play.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Hey AL.B , do the gold spots on the leaves look like the beginning of K deficiency or nute burn to you.


It's not nute burn; that would appear as burns to the tips and margins of the leaves. K def sounds possible since your ppm is pretty low at 580. I run my tanks at 1400.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

Are you spraying your ladies. I think I dealt with the same problem. And I judged it as spraying to close to light period. Made changes never spray, but towards beginning of night cycle now. Doing much better.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

Enigma said:


> The minerals are what concerns me.


Don't worry about minerals. The minerals you will mainly find dissolved in tapwater are iron and limestone (calcium carbonate, CaCO3). 

I wouldn't worry about limestone; the main effect of too much dissolved limestone is a raising of the pH. You will compensate for this with a phosphoric acid pHDown solution when you mix up a new tank (and the flowering plants will like the extra P they get from the pHDown). However, calcium is in fact an important micronutrient for cannabis. I add 10ml of Canna's 15% Ca supplement with each tank (and also Epsom Salts for Mg) as I know my tapwater is naturally soft due to our local sandstone (instead of limestone or granite) catchment bedrock. 

 Iron is also an important micronutrient and should already be included in any complete hydroponic nutrient. However, the iron in municipal tapwater, leached from cast iron pipes, coupled with running a somewhat acidic nute soln at 5.8 as we do, usually means iron deficiencies are pretty rare in hydroponic cannabis ops.

The only real problem dissolved mineral is sulfur and if your borewater has enough of it, you'll know- from the rotten egg/farty smell.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Are you spraying your ladies. I think I dealt with the same problem. And I judged it as spraying to close to light period. Made changes never spray, but towards beginning of night cycle now. Doing much better.


Sure, you can burn leaf tips with foliar feeding. You can induce fungal problems too. For those reasons, I don't foliar feed. I limit spraying to only 1x per 2wks when I apply an anti-fungal to suppress powdery mildew.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

Hey Al, check out my thread. I am trying to move out of my veg chamber. I am looking to buy a lockable closet. (like sunlights cool cab) and do it up. I have a 400 HPS, two bubbleponic Stealth Hydro tanks. Any ideas. This is officially my first grow. My last was a disaster. And the first reason for that was light leakage, then security.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al, check out my thread. I am trying to move out of my veg chamber. I am looking to buy a lockable closet. (like sunlights cool cab) and do it up. I have a 400 HPS, two bubbleponic Stealth Hydro tanks. Any ideas. This is officially my first grow. My last was a disaster. And the first reason for that was light leakage, then security.


...from page 50...



Al B. Fuct said:


> I don't mind discussing general concepts but I'd like to avoid designing other folks' ops from top to bottom or hand-holding them through a grow. It's just too taxing on my limited time. It's why I have PMs disabled. Remember, I'm a slacker and I'm running a very productive op. There's enough info on room construction and general theory of growing cannabis all over this board to get anyone through who can take the time to read the stuff. In terms of troubleshooting, there's folks on here who are much better at diagnosing stuff than I am, too. See potroast, he knows everything (please don't kill me pottie....  ).


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 18, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> FZ, you've had your fun dicking up the thread. Joke's over. Now go outside and play.



hahaha i think he's dead serious tho al


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't need someone to hold my hand. I need good opinions from people I feel I can trust. I don't know if thats the best closet. Maybe someone to start, can tell me where I can buy the best suitable cheapest. There is not enough on building a closet. Go ahead and look into it. It's always easier said then done. Thank god I have enough sense to complete all on my own, cause not one person has posted help on my thread. I just wanted some good opinions. I am timid it's my first real grow. And I have filled my grow space beautifully. Now I want to fill the next space, lol.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> I don't need someone to hold my hand.


Your thread is titled "Help me design a low budget closet," which is what prompted my cut/paste response about designing ops for others.

Building a wardrobe is a fairly straightforward task if you have basic carpentry tools & skills. However, sit down and cost out the project first. You might find that it's more economical to buy a new ready-made wardrobe or even may find one 2nd hand. 

Option B is to build a grow tent, which only requires a frame of either timber or of 1" square aluminum tubing connected with plastic 'Qubelok' fittings, which you can cover with panda film. 

Let me give you a small clue, though- when you tell the RIU community "*You all suck," *don't expect anyone to crowd your door with offers of assistance. You're probably lucky no one has so far told you to jam it up your ass. Not a single person on this board is _*obligated*_ to share their accumulated wisdom- and you being abusive sure won't prompt anyone to come to your aid.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> hahaha i think he's dead serious tho al


ya reckon? 

Well... so am I!


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

You all suck is a fishing line to get people in. I didn't say fuck you all. I actually have a few buddies I chat with that are definantly cool. And I know you are cool and full of knowledge. My first 3 days on the forum, I didn't post a word. With the warning you gave to other newbies. But there really isn't any help in that direct catagorie. I have decided like a said with a metal cabinet like sunlight sheds, cause it natural comes with a locking mech. I have my tanks and light so I can drop them in and worry next about ventalation. I originally wanted that clone chamber on top, but after reading that it's not the best I figure on metal cab, for flower. And old box with CFLs for veg. I just don't want to fuck up. This harest is like my only way out of the shit that I'm in. And I want to do it right. Also I'm using TechnaFlora Nutes. I bought the pack from SH when I ordered some time ago.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 18, 2008)

Buy a dark room.. with the questions you've asked I'd take as much responsibility out of your hands and go with some manufactured.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

I have over grown my box. (Square) So I want a metal closet (i.e. verticle) for the sake of it's natural light. I have been LSTing my ladies, I do have nutes, I'm in tanks and I have an HPS. I'm not a fool, just someone looking for a solid good opinion. On my thread I put a link to Staples closet. I would strip from top shelf down. No cloning on top just storage. After leaving Staples I see my next stop at home depot for Venting and possible reflective meterial. But I suppose that closet will reflet on it's on, since it's an off white????? What do you guys think???


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

Metal closet for sake of Natural Lock. SEcurity is key. I lost my last grow to my bestfriends mom a few years back. And I have been patiently waiting out this one. I am way out of space though. The SH tanks are to tall. Most Minicabs use tanks 5-6" tall mine are a foot. Then a foot for the light. I am growing Sativas and they are all bent still pushing 2'8" on there sides. I don't want to fuck up. Which is why I ask questions. I learned young the stupid guy asks no questions.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 18, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Metal closet for sake of Natural Lock. SEcurity is key. I lost my last grow to my bestfriends mom a few years back. And I have been patiently waiting out this one. I am way out of space though. The SH tanks are to tall. Most Minicabs use tanks 5-6" tall mine are a foot. Then a foot for the light. I am growing Sativas and they are all bent still pushing 2'8" on there sides. I don't want to fuck up. Which is why I ask questions. I learned young the stupid guy asks no questions.


You could always train the plants using fishing line, or top them.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

What's the big deal, Kaos? Just go buy some cheap wardrobes, ferfuxsake. Doesn't much matter what it's made from, but I don't think I'd get a metal one, particularly not steel. It'd amplify vibration noise from any fans attached to it, would be hard to cut holes to fit ducts & fans and worst, will rust.



> I want a metal closet (i.e. verticle) for the sake of it's natural light.


huh? 



> I lost my last grow to my bestfriends mom a few years back.


Momavoidance is not a topic you'll see me cover too much. If you're concerned that someone's mom is going to cut through a timber cabinet and won't get through a metal one, I suggest you find a place to live where the moms don't walk around with angle grinders and sabre saws at the ready. 

One thing you can take from this thread (which actually is about a SoG grow, _lest we forget_...) is to start a mother plant, take cuttings and put them in to flower as soon as they set root. This will limit their vertical height to something more suitable for a wardrobe. Removing branch growth on the lower 1/3 of the plant and flowering with no veg time will allow your to grow four ~30-40" tall plants per sf. Your plants are too tall because you vegged before flowering. Plants continue growing vegetatively for about the first 4 weeks of 12/12 lighting and will triple to quadruple in height by wk 4, when they will stop growing vertical height, with no veg time between clones setting root and flowering them.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

Ok, good view point. Thats what I need. I am not worried about mom avoidance as much as just security. So I am going to look into some wooden frames I can start with. I just don't want to build my frame. I allowed to much verticle space before I topped and LSTed. And I am cautious about cutting my beautiful girls. I hate putting the blade to them. I have already pulled 2 clones of my best two plants and they look to be doing great 4 days later. I constantly have people over, and don't want snoopers finding out whats behind the doors. I definantly need to keep the light traped. Thanks I think I am getting closer. I want to do this by tonight.



Al B. Fuct said:


> What's the big deal, Kaos? Just go buy some cheap wardrobes, ferfuxsake. Doesn't much matter what it's made from, but I don't think I'd get a metal one, particularly not steel. It'd amplify vibration noise from any fans attached to it, would be hard to cut holes to fit ducts & fans and worst, will rust.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

Light leaks are best cured by fully lining the cabinet with panda film, effectively creating a light-sealed tent within the cabinet. Leave plenty of overlap where panels of panda film must be joined, such as where the walls meet the ceiling and floor.

Modern, cheapo duct tape is nearly useless in grow rooms. It comes unstuck in no time at all in warm, humid conditions. Use silicone sealant to glue panels of pandafilm together. Used duct tape only as a temporary measure until the silicone sealant sets up.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

Who stocks Panda Film. I am looking to buy all local in cash tonight ya know.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2008)

check your local hydro shops & hdwe stores. 

You'll find almost everything you need to build an op between aquarium/pet shops and your local giant hdwe stores. Only a very few items will be specific to hydro shops, like nutes and big wattage HPS lighting.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 18, 2008)

Hey Al, I am leaving the house now. Even if I don't finish up my project today. I will have a better idea of what I am doing. You've been great. I will keep in touch with my updates.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 18, 2008)

I've been looking at HTG.com and their prices blow away any local competitors. 

Period.

For a 4x4 space would a 1000w HPS be over-kill? 

I've used one before in such a small space with great results.. but I was wondering if you had first-hand experience with a smaller space.. would a 400w/600w suffice? 

I know more light is always better, if you don't burn the plants.

HTG recommends the 400w for a 4x4 space.. 

1000w; 150,000L = 150L/w
600w; 95,000 = 158.2L/w
400w; 55,000 = 137.5L/w

1000w = 37,500L/sq. ft. @ 24" above the canopy
600w = 42,222.2L/sq. ft. @ 18" above the canopy
400w = 24,444.4L/sq. ft. @ 18" above the canopy

To me.. the 600w seems to be the most efficient and the best suited for the space.. maybe my math is wrong...?

Here is a layout:







Model #5 - Updated

Note: The jpeg can be enlarged to view in the browser. This is also based on a perpetual grow.. just a little bit different from yours.. well a lot a bit.



Enigma


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 18, 2008)

you got some crazy ideas enigma! i hope that works out for you! why do you want it to be round? at least thats what i get from it! also how do you plan on implementing it? shoot me a pm! unless al doesnt mind a little hijacking

edit, also how many plants/ft^2 is that going to be? looks really densely packed!


----------



## Enigma (Mar 18, 2008)

Haha, on the way to the store I was working the math out in my head and I found where I went wrong.. but the 600w still seems to be the best suited for the space.



We TaRdED said:


> you got some crazy ideas enigma! i hope that works out for you! why do you want it to be round? at least thats what i get from it! also how do you plan on implementing it? shoot me a pm! unless al doesnt mind a little hijacking
> 
> edit, also how many plants/ft^2 is that going to be? looks really densely packed!


As you can see that is *Model #5! *So far, I've been through 4 models until this one came up to be the least expensive and most cost efficient design.

Check the link for the details: Model #5 - Updated

About 8 plants per sq. ft. It is still in design so the numbers could change in the future.

It is round because it is made out of this:
35 Gallon Pond Kit - Lowe's


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 18, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Haha, on the way to the store I was working the math out in my head and I found where I went wrong.. but the 600w still seems to be the best suited for the space.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats like $50, thats not that cheap, maybe reinforced though. i bought a 40 gal(i think its 40, greater than 35gal anyways) for under $10. if you were only filling it 1/2way you would have no problems with it. Plus you want something thats square, that way it will make it easier to do a perpetual crop, you could work down the rows. idk, JMHO! 

8 PLANTS/SQFT? WHAT? thats unheard of. madness. you really are a puzzle..... lol.... 

let me know how it goes, this is like a new frontier!!! your going to need some healthy moms!!!


----------



## Enigma (Mar 18, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> thats like $50, thats not that cheap, maybe reinforced though. i bought a 40 gal(i think its 40, greater than 35gal anyways) for under $10. if you were only filling it 1/2way you would have no problems with it. Plus you want something thats square, that way it will make it easier to do a perpetual crop, you could work down the rows. idk, JMHO!
> 
> 8 PLANTS/SQFT? WHAT? thats unheard of. madness. you really are a puzzle..... lol....
> 
> let me know how it goes, this is like a new frontier!!! your going to need some healthy moms!!!


With the round one there is more usuable area.. I had a good geometry teacher! He was also the basketball coach!

I never thought of the round res until I saw one going through some pond stuff.. then it hit me.. why not see how many I can fit in there?! The Model #4 only held 56.. this one holds 63.. in less floor space.. and costs way less than the other.

I had an idea to use some tubs from Rubbermaid.. but that would only allow me to use 8 plants at best per tub.. and getting 4 tubs in the are would leave me with 32 total.. I like the numbers from the pond kit!

In order to harvest all I have to do is tag each plant with the name of the mother and the date cloned. A piece of masking tape folded around the base of the newly cloned stalk is all I will need for information. Besides that, I will group them next to each other and the plain sight of the bud with a magnifying glass will tell me when the tricromes are matured enough for harvest.

Check out the possible moms for yourself.. T5's ftw!









Enigma


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 18, 2008)

Enigma said:


> With the round one there is more usuable area.. I had a good geometry teacher! He was also the basketball coach!
> 
> I never thought of the round res until I saw one going through some pond stuff.. then it hit me.. why not see how many I can fit in there?! The Model #4 only held 56.. this one holds 63.. in less floor space.. and costs way less than the other.
> 
> ...


you should s*tart your own thread* my friend! i will definitely watch your build and growing. seems like you know what you want and how to do it, right on! what strain that that btw? what would be the circumference of your res/propagator? your moms look good  peace


----------



## Enigma (Mar 18, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> you should s*tart your own thread* my friend! i will definitely watch your build and growing. seems like you know what you want and how to do it, right on! what strain that that btw? what would be the circumference of your res/propagator? your moms look good  peace


I was thinking about that.. but right now I'm patiently awaiting the Guru's advice.. although, I think the 600w is gonna be the best bet.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

Enigma said:


> For a 4x4 space would a 1000w HPS be over-kill?


Would be fine with a cooltube. You can recover some of the intensity lost by the 24" uncooled recommended spacing by installing a cooltube and dropping the light to 330-350mm (12-14") min clearance. 



> I've used one before in such a small space with great results.. but I was wondering if you had first-hand experience with a smaller space.. would a 400w/600w suffice?


For good density, I use the coarse (but darn close for 400, 600 & 1000HPS) guide of 50W of HPS/sq ft. For a 4x4 table, a 1000 would be best suited per that rough guide. A 600 would produce nice results too, but you may want to move plants around in the trays periodically to even them up a bit. Plants left always on the fringe of the light coverage may not do as well as you like. 

However, most horizontal tube reflectors lay down a mainly rectangular light pattern. This is why I use square tables in pairs, to create a rectangular plant space to be covered by a single 1000 in a cooltubed batwing. Of course, you can buy rectangular trays if you like. 



> I know more light is always better, if you don't burn the plants.


True. Cooltubes trap most of the radiated IR but not all of it. I can lay my hand on a cooltube running a 1000 and leave it there but I don't think I'd want to do it for 12 hours straight, nor would I lay a plant up against one. I don't have a surface temp thermo but the warmest part of my cooltubes would be close to 38-40C. The cooltubes are so effective at ducting off heat from the HPS bottles and my room air circ is sufficient enough that the air temp (measured with a light-shielded air probe) under my batwings is just the same as any other place in the room.



> HTG recommends the 400w for a 4x4 space..


Mmm. Pretty big table for a 400. I'd probably choose a 2' x 3.5'-4' tray for a 400 in a horizontal reflector. 



> 1000w; 150,000L = 150L/w
> 600w; 95,000 = 158.2L/w
> 400w; 55,000 = 137.5L/w
> 
> ...


If I'm not mistaken, those figures are for lamps without cooltubes. Easy to cut any of them in half with cooltubes installed. I wouldn't feel bad about a 400 in a cooltube at 6-8" clearance. You can use the inverse square math to adjust the intensity figures accordingly. 



> Here is a layout:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice drawing. 

Not sure about the round tray (is that what I'm seeing?), though, unless you're using a vertical tube 'chinaman's hat' type reflector, which are not the most efficient sort and their tube sockets run very hot, reducing lamp life. 

If you want to do a grow in the round, think about a vertically mounted cooltube column. I've seen a 'stadium' or 'coliseum' grow which used a pair of 1000s, in seriesed cooltubes, like my setup, but with plants on 3 levels of shelves surrounding the cooltube column. I like the fact that all light in such an arrangement comes straight from the lamp tube instead of half of it bouncing off a reflector before it gets to the plants.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

Enigma said:


> About 8 plants per sq. ft. It is still in design so the numbers could change in the future.


Are you doing plants in pots or an aero/DWC? Looks doable that way. However, I'd suggest that 8 per sf in pots would be pushing the minimum rootmass size you'd want for good development and the small amt of absorbent media would hold very little water in case of pump failure. 8 per sf looks more possible as an aero/DWC. If in pots, I would not go more than 4 per sf. 



> It is round because it is made out of this: 35 Gallon Pond Kit - Lowe's


hmm, OK, looks like a nice base for an aero/DWC, all you have to organise is something waterproof and yet stiff enough when a bunch of holes are cut in it to support the netpots. Good bit of McGuyvering.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Would be fine with a cooltube. You can recover some of the intensity lost by the 24" uncooled recommended spacing by installing a cooltube and dropping the light to 330-350mm (12-14") min clearance.
> 
> For good density, I use the coarse (but darn close for 400, 600 & 1000HPS) guide of 50W of HPS/sq ft. For a 4x4 table, a 1000 would be best suited per that rough guide. A 600 would produce nice results too, but you may want to move plants around in the trays periodically to even them up a bit. Plants left always on the fringe of the light coverage may not do as well as you like.
> 
> ...


Cool tubes cool the 1000w that much?!?! Shit.

I was looking at the Euro hood/reflector with 6" vents. Is that not enough...? Even if the hood had its own duct for ventilation outside of the room?

The round pond kit DWC is already purchased because of the density factor.. 63 clones as apposed to a 6" PCV setup that would hold only 54 and be way more complex and expensive.. and the rubbermaid tub DWC would only hold 32 in the 4x4 space. The ONLY issue I see right now is that all clones will share the same amount of nutes.. so I will have to find the middle ground saturation of nutrients to cover them all.. something on the tone of 1,000-1,200 PPM? The new clones will be watered from the top for two weeks, or until the roots grow into the res.

So, if the 1000w cooltube was used at say 12"-16" above the canopy:

1000w 150,000L = ~85,000L/sq. ft.

Damn.

I like the stadium idea.. but I think this round table is going to be interesting enough!

Simple, compact, cheap, and efficient.. in the days to come my newly logged journal will tell the story! (See sig below).

As always thanks Al!



Enigma


----------



## Enigma (Mar 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Are you doing plants in pots or an aero/DWC? Looks doable that way. However, I'd suggest that 8 per sf in pots would be pushing the minimum rootmass size you'd want for good development and the small amt of absorbent media would hold very little water in case of pump failure. 8 per sf looks more possible as an aero/DWC. If in pots, I would not go more than 4 per sf.
> 
> 
> 
> hmm, OK, looks like a nice base for an aero/DWC, all you have to organise is something waterproof and yet stiff enough when a bunch of holes are cut in it to support the netpots. Good bit of McGuyvering.


DWC!

Yea, I'm thinking a thick piece of plastic to look like a piece of swiss cheese!

Some well placed PVC supports should hold it nicely.. but that is to be seen.. if I source the DWC cover in time I will go right into it.. if not, I'll have a nice soil op to tide me over!



Enigma


----------



## smartfood (Mar 19, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> I just don't want to fuck up.


Get used to the idea. It's going to happen. Now let's get back to ABF's masterpiece.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 19, 2008)

$360 shipped for a 1000w HPS, ballast, cooltube, hangers, and extra bulb.. now where the hell can I find one of those reflectors you have?!?!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Cool tubes cool the 1000w that much?!?! Shit.


Yeah, the difference really _is_ night & day. I don't know how I got by without the things for so long... well, yes, I do... my summer crops always sucked. 



> I was looking at the Euro hood/reflector with 6" vents. Is that not enough...? Even if the hood had its own duct for ventilation outside of the room?


I'm not a fan of Euro hoods. They're rather inefficient reflectors because their boxy shape permits a fair amount of light to be bounced right back to the HPS bottle. 

The double parabola shape of batwings assures all reflected light is going away from the tube and toward the plants. 

Also, either a cooltube or cooled hood should have a closed air circuit and its own blower, sourcing and dumping air outside the room's airmass. Coupled with a main exhaust blower capable of shifting the room's airmass in 3-5 mins, this will make the room airmass temps very stable. Mine is now 25C +/- 1.1C at all times with closed ckt cooltubes and a 600CFM blower for a 500cu ft space. 

A cooltube must have its own blower for a constant air supply during lights-on, plus a 15 min cooldown period after lights-off, necessitating its own timer as well. I've seen attempts to use the cooltube's blower as the room's main exhaust blower. Since one cannot run such a blower on a thermostat, the room temp stability is sacrificed. Room temp will be intake temp plus 1-3C. 


> The round pond kit DWC is already purchased because of the density factor.. 63 clones as apposed to a 6" PCV setup that would hold only 54 and be way more complex and expensive.. and the rubbermaid tub DWC would only hold 32 in the 4x4 space.


k, it'll do, then! 



> The ONLY issue I see right now is that all clones will share the same amount of nutes.. so I will have to find the middle ground saturation of nutrients to cover them all.. something on the tone of 1,000-1,200 PPM? The new clones will be watered from the top for two weeks, or until the roots grow into the res.


Nah, run it at 1400 @ 5.8, the newbs won't mind a bit. I run all my flowering tanks there. 



> So, if the 1000w cooltube was used at say 12"-16" above the canopy:
> 
> 1000w 150,000L = ~85,000L/sq. ft.
> 
> Damn.


Sounds about right. 



> I like the stadium idea.. but I think this round table is going to be interesting enough!


Ought to be a good bit of fun. 

Not sure how you're going to go with air circ at 8/sf but I guess you'll cross that when you come to it. 



Enigma said:


> DWC!
> 
> Yea, I'm thinking a thick piece of plastic to look like a piece of swiss cheese!
> 
> Some well placed PVC supports should hold it nicely.. but that is to be seen.. if I source the DWC cover in time I will go right into it.. if not, I'll have a nice soil op to tide me over!


heh, you need a big assed slab of 12mm thick PVC and a hole saw.  Wot to do with all the offcuts?! Might make interesting beer coasters. 



Enigma said:


> $360 shipped for a 1000w HPS, ballast, cooltube, hangers, and extra bulb.. now where the hell can I find one of those reflectors you have?!?!


Nice price, esp incl shipping. 

I'm using modified Adjust-A-Wings, but they're pretty expensive to buy and then just throw away the lamp mount and socket to fit a cooltube. AAWs are Australian but you ought to find them in the US & UK. You might consider making a homemade batwing reflector for your cooltube. 




> Originally Posted by *Kaosisglobal*
> _ I just don't want to fuck up._





smartfood said:


> Get used to the idea. It's going to happen. Now let's get back to ABF's masterpiece.


Yes-indeedy-do, that's a sure thing. You just fuck up less as you get more experience built up. I absolutely still balls it up from time to time. I've overwatered my latest batch of clones and had to recut about 10 of this last batch of 30 due to stem rot.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 19, 2008)

Yeah I know I may fuck up, though o so far things have been going great. I am a pothead, so I still havn't built the closet. Rolled up and never left the house yesterday. But I played with the girls when the lights came on. I fimmed one of my tops that were getting high. Also Al, tell me if you don't think this is sick. You know my tanks. Now I'm two weeks into Flowering and a seed that never germinated is an inch and a half above the rockwell. The only thing I figure is my plants are healthy, and hungry, lol. I am feeding the big girls a flowering solution. The two clones are in there doing fine, but I was shaky. And that seed germinated a month and a half after I started, my widow would be 3 ft. if she was strait up. She already covers 3 sides of the tank. (With training) And at this point I will have to train shoots which are trying to reach lights. Is there anything sold in Home Depot, comparable to Bushmasters??? We don't have any hydro shops here, I would have to order online.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 19, 2008)

Oh never said up top, but do you think that seed will make it up, or should I get it out of the tank. By being out of space only thing I could do is soil it, or Grow rocks in a two liter or something? What do you think about that germination, and keeping it healthy??


----------



## Enigma (Mar 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The double parabola shape of batwings assures all reflected light is going away from the tube and toward the plants.
> 
> Also, either a cooltube or cooled hood should have a closed air circuit and its own blower, sourcing and dumping air outside the room's airmass. Coupled with a main exhaust blower capable of shifting the room's airmass in 3-5 mins, this will make the room airmass temps very stable. Mine is now 25C +/- 1.1C at all times with closed ckt cooltubes and a 600CFM blower for a 500cu ft space.
> 
> ...


I think I'll have to spend the $$$ on some sheet aluminum and roll it around a cylinder per your DIY thread. I'll plug your thread when it is done in my journal!

The FREE timer that comes with the HPS kit has two sockets and can handle 2000w MAX. So, I think I will run it on the timer with the cooltube on its own duct. Then have a seperate one with a carbon air filter for the vegetation.

I don't think I'll need 600cfm for just the cooltube...?

I'll need at least a 100cfm fan to exchange the air in a 4x4x6.5 sized room every 1 minute. 

Is my math wrong?

4x4x6.5 = 104 cu. ft.

I'll test and tinker with the nute concentration.. but I will use 1000 PPM as a base and work up to the 1400 PPM mark. 

Is the reason the levels can be so high because of the water level? 

In the other DWC we never went over 700 PPM.. then again, I was security.. not horticulcurist in that op. (6 gal DWC /w 6 plants)

The excess PVC will probably be used for covers/supports at the base of the plants.. they sell them, but I'm and engineer.. we make use of ANYTHING!



Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

Enigma said:


> I think I'll have to spend the $$$ on some sheet aluminum and roll it around a cylinder per your DIY thread. I'll plug your thread when it is done in my journal!


heh, thanks. The FAQ item should be updated- I redesigned the socket mount to make it more mechanically robust but haven't run the update past a mod to have the changes put in the FAQ. Won't much matter to you as you will be using a cooltube with a socket & mount already fitted.



> The FREE timer that comes with the HPS kit has two sockets and can handle 2000w MAX. So, I think I will run it on the timer with the cooltube on its own duct. Then have a seperate one with a carbon air filter for the vegetation.


Problem with the cooltube blower sharing the timer with the light that when the timer for the light shuts off, the fan shuts off at the same time. The lamp/s will still be glowing hot. If airflow has been stopped, the heat will simply go into the cooltube glass and be transferred into the room's airmass. 

This is why I use a separate timer for my cooltubes. The cooltube blower comes on when the lights switch on, but _*also*_ runs for _15 mins *after* lights-off_, to cool things down to ambient before stopping airflow. Puts the heat outside the room and may extend the HPS tube & socket life. 



> I don't think I'll need 600cfm for just the cooltube...?


Oh mercy, no!  You're quite right, a 150-200CFM, 150mm axial blower will be fine for the cooltube. 

I run a Spectrum Customline C250L as my main exhaust blower. Has a 195W motor and is rated 280L/sec (593CFM). Believe it or not, that's the low noise, low flow version of this fan- and it _*is*_ nearly inaudible at 1m away, with ducting fitted. 

Spectrum also make a unit in the same 250mm housing but with a 480 watt monster motor, in their C250H model. C250H moves a wind-tunnel-like 420L/sec (890CFM). Will suck-start a Harley.  Very little impeller noise from this unit, but because it moves air in units we in the biz refer to as '*fuckloads*,' there's some air whooshing noise from this thing. I'd worry if I _didn't_ hear some whoosh from a blower rated nearly 900CFM.  A carbon filter shuts it right up, tho. 



> I'll need at least a 100cfm fan to exchange the air in a 4x4x6.5 sized room every 1 minute.
> 
> Is my math wrong?
> 
> 4x4x6.5 = 104 cu. ft.


No, your math is right. 

It's a good rule-o'-thumb to have a main blower which can shift the volume of the room's airmass in ~3 mins. For a 104 cu ft room with a closed-air-circuit cooltube system taking care of the heat from lighting, you'd really only need about 34CFM for the main exhaust. You will probably have trouble finding anything that _*small*_.  If you're not pushing into a carbon filter or long duct, just put another 150mm axial in as the main exhaust, just as you used on the cooltube. Use a centrif if you have a long, bendy duct or a carbon filter. It so happens that I _*WAY*_ overrated my blower for my 500cu ft room, but that selection was made before I had cooltubes. 



> I'll test and tinker with the nute concentration.. but I will use 1000 PPM as a base and work up to the 1400 PPM mark.


Always smart. There's a bell-curve to nutrient strength. There's 'too little,' 'just right' and 'dead.' 



> Is the reason the levels can be so high because of the water level?


1400ppm isn't particularly strong. It's about 75% of where I see nute burn in the flowering area (~1800-1900ppm). I have found I can run the mums 'hotter,' at about 1800-2000 without problems. I suspect this is due to the very hungry vegetative mode of growth and 24/7 lighting. 



> In the other DWC we never went over 700 PPM.. then again, I was security.. not horticulcurist in that op. (6 gal DWC /w 6 plants)


It's been so long since I ran my system as a DWC or aero that I have forgotten where I used to run the nute strength, but 700 sounds really pretty low. As long as you don't see deficiencies, lower _*is*_ usually better. 

Nothing stopping you from setting up a separate single plant system to do running tests with stuff like nute strength etc before you introduce the condition to the main grow. Until you have run your system for a spell and have a good idea of what's on to the point where you can mix tanks in the dark , some experimentation is good, but doing it in a way that won't wipe you out if things go horribly wrong is infinitely better.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

BTW, failure to be diligent will bite you when mixing nutes. I was in a hurry the last time I mixed up a batch of nutes and just used figures I knew would work generally, without really checking. Seems my tapwater pH is suddenly a bit lower than normal... and I didn't check. Just used the usual amount of nutes, Ca & Mg additives and pHDown as I would when the tapwater is 7.1... but it's about 6.4 at the moment. 

This 'blind' mixing resulted in a lower pH than I should have had, probably about 4.9-5.1. This caused 'rosetting' (stunted mainstem, small leaves) in one batch of plants, which hopefully will resolve after a couple of weeks with a proper diet. pH should be corrected after adding nutes. Most commercial hydro nutes have pH buffers which will get the pH pretty close for reasonable nute strengths and ordinary tapwater.

We spoke of fucking things up a few posts ago. There's an awful lot going on in any cannabis grow op and errors are easy to make. There's no operator's manual for this, you really have to know what's on well enough to make correct diagnoses and judgments on the fly. Errors accumulate to reduce yield. Your best crops will, of course, be the ones where you made the fewest mistakes in the last 12 or so weeks!


----------



## Enigma (Mar 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> BTW, failure to be diligent will bite you when mixing nutes. I was in a hurry the last time I mixed up a batch of nutes and just used figures I knew would work generally, without really checking. Seems my tapwater pH is suddenly a bit lower than normal... and I didn't check. Just used the usual amount of nutes, Ca & Mg additives and pHDown as I would when the tapwater is 7.1... but it's about 6.4 at the moment.
> 
> This 'blind' mixing resulted in a lower pH than I should have had, probably about 4.9-5.1. This caused 'rosetting' (stunted mainstem, small leaves) in one batch of plants, which hopefully will resolve after a couple of weeks with a proper diet. pH should be corrected after adding nutes. Most commercial hydro nutes have pH buffers which will get the pH pretty close for reasonable nute strengths and ordinary tapwater.
> 
> We spoke of fucking things up a few posts ago. There's an awful lot going on in any cannabis grow op and errors are easy to make. There's no operator's manual for this, you really have to know what's on well enough to make correct diagnoses and judgments on the fly. Errors accumulate to reduce yield. Your best crops will, of course, be the ones where you made the fewest mistakes in the last 12 or so weeks!


 
But of course!

Soil has always been so very forgiving.. which why the mothers are squating in some Roots Organics.. that shit is dank ass soil. They love it.. updated pics in my grow journal soon...

Quad 48" T5 setup for veg coming next week!

Since this will be the first time keeping mothers, about 6, how long do they normally live? I figure they could last damn near forever if I treat them like a bonsai.

*IF* the DWC equipment isn't acquired by the time the room is setup I'll go with a soil op to tide me over  then on to the hydro.

If I used one vent, say a 350cfm+ to run through the cooltube and slap a carbon filter on the other side to take care of both the lamp and room would that be sufficient to keep the tube within 16" of the canopy?


----------



## smartfood (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes-indeedy-do, that's a sure thing. You just fuck up less as you get more experience built up. I absolutely still balls it up from time to time. I've overwatered my latest batch of clones and had to recut about 10 of this last batch of 30 due to stem rot.[/quote]

Hey ABF, I may have done the same thing...
I took cuttings off of my plants before I put them into flower, now they are about 10 days old. Two of the plants in flower turned out to be male, another hermied (the first four weeks of it's life were very stressful). So I tossed out the cuttings that I'd pulled from them and checked for roots. None on any of them. I'm not sure if there's too much water in there or what. Most of the lower leaves are turning yellow, a few even brownish, and they look very droopy. I typically spray them 2x/day with PH'd water w/superthrive and let them breathe for a little while. It's plenty warm in there and they're covered so it's very humid. Parts of the stems had turned brown... You have any idea what I did wrong?


----------



## Enigma (Mar 19, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hey ABF, I may have done the same thing...
> I took cuttings off of my plants before I put them into flower, now they are about 10 days old. Two of the plants in flower turned out to be male, another hermied (the first four weeks of it's life were very stressful). So I tossed out the cuttings that I'd pulled from them and checked for roots. None on any of them. I'm not sure if there's too much water in there or what. Most of the lower leaves are turning yellow, a few even brownish, and they look very droopy. I typically spray them 2x/day with PH'd water w/superthrive and let them breathe for a little while. It's plenty warm in there and they're covered so it's very humid. Parts of the stems had turned brown... You have any idea what I did wrong?


From what I read you didn't let them root.

Take cuttings, use root hormone, and let them sit under blue light 24/7 for about 2 weeks or until roots show.. then flower.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 19, 2008)

hey Al do you live in the US or Australia. Also, do you use a green light in your room during sleep state to work.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

Enigma said:


> But of course!
> Since this will be the first time keeping mothers, about 6, how long do they normally live? I figure they could last damn near forever if I treat them like a bonsai.


I only keep them for somewhere between 4-8 weeks. They get fairly gnarly and unproductive after several passes of cuttings; they'll become rootbound and may pick up a colony of gnats. Too easy to raise up some replacements. I keep about 10 plants, 6 of which at any given moment are active donors and 4 are new replacements that are vegging up and perhaps being pruned once or twice before they go online donating cuttings.



> If I used one vent, say a 350cfm+ to run through the cooltube and slap a carbon filter on the other side to take care of both the lamp and room would that be sufficient to keep the tube within 16" of the canopy?


Not recommended- I covered that a few posts back. The cooltube's fan has to run at all times during lights on +15 mins after lights off. Can't run a thermostat on that fan, so if it's your only fan, you have no control over room temp. For best temp stability, you need two blowers, one for the cooltube, run on its own timer so you can have the 15 min overrun and one blower for the main exhaust, run on a thermostat.



smartfood said:


> Hey ABF, I may have done the same thing...
> I took cuttings off of my plants before I put them into flower, now they are about 10 days old. Two of the plants in flower turned out to be male, another hermied (the first four weeks of it's life were very stressful). So I tossed out the cuttings that I'd pulled from them and checked for roots. None on any of them. I'm not sure if there's too much water in there or what. Most of the lower leaves are turning yellow, a few even brownish, and they look very droopy. I typically spray them 2x/day with PH'd water w/superthrive and let them breathe for a little while. It's plenty warm in there and they're covered so it's very humid. Parts of the stems had turned brown... You have any idea what I did wrong?


Any idea? Yeah... one or two...

OK, let's run the list!

* didn't establish mother plants in their own area with veg cycle light, now have no vegging backups from which to get more cuttings - cuttings taken from plants which have been under flowering light for more than a week or so are notoriously slow to set root and will take several weeks of veg light cycle before they will begin growing in pure veg mode
* didn't sex plants before flowering - should have established mums, taken cuttings, rooted cuttings, then sex THOSE under 12/12 to determine the sex of the donor plant
* droopy overall and yellow lower leaves on cuttings are classic overwatering signs, media is being kept way too wet, stem tips most likely rotted
* high air temp and humidity are not necessary to root clones and usually make matters worse - if overwet conds have caused stem rot, there will be little water getting to the leaves thru the stem - but high air temps will force faster transpiration from leaves, wilting them just that lil bit faster...
* misting plants can exacerbate fungal probs on leaves, really isn't needed if there's sufficient water uptake through a clean stem cut

Let's start over:

* sprout beans
* grow to sexual maturity (6-8 wks under veg cycle light, until preflowers are present at nodes)
* prune plants 1-3x during vegging to maturity to keep them short & bushy, lop the mainstems to force branching
* take cuttings when preflowers are evident - MARK the cuttings so you know which donor plant they came from
* when cuttings root, put them under 12/12 flowering light cycle, sex will display in about a week, perhaps less
* cull male donors, take a batch of cuttings from known females
* flower the cuttings when they have developed a good spray of roots
* in 2 weeks, the female donors (we can call 'em 'mums' now!) will be ready to deliver your next batch of cuttings
* and so on, every 2 weeks, replacing mums as they 'wear out'

got it? 

*Photoessay**: A batch of clones in rockwool* is a really rather thorough, illustrated guide to cloning. 



bigal10 said:


> hey Al do you live in the US or Australia.


Yes. 

Mostly in .au these days, but I got frequent flyer points like a pic-a-nic has ants, eh Boo Boo Bear!



bigal10 said:


> Also, do you use a green light in your room during sleep state to work.


I should but don't. I do restrict my out-of-lights-on work as much as possible to an hour after lights off and an hour before lights-on. To see WTF I'm doing, I use an 8W CFL, which you might see in some pics in my gallery, suspended above one of the batwings. This provides enough indirect light to read the LCD on my pH meter and mix nutes while not putting any direct light on the plants.


----------



## smartfood (Mar 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Any idea? Yeah... one or two...
> 
> OK, let's run the list!
> 
> ...


I guess my description was a bit poor, but my order was probably off nonetheless. Here's what I did:
- germed Chrystal seeds
--> Heat stress for three weeks, very stunted
-germed Satori seeds as a backup
- Vegged Satori for 4 weeks with Chrystal (they caught up fast)
- Pulled 2 clones off of each plant and labeled which was from which
- Put Chrystal + Satori into flower at 10-12"
- Pulled 3 males so far, 1 hermie + threw out the clones associated with those
-Saw yellowing on leaves of clones (batch 1), decided as a safety precaution to use trimmings from plants at end of week one of flower as backup clones in case the others don't root (batch 2) --> that was 4 days ago
Plan: Once all the plants in flower are sexed, keep all female clones, keep ones with most desrireable traits as mums, throw the rest in to flower as the next batch. Vegg the mums (fimm or top) to keep them short, then begin what you're doing with multiple cuttings from the same plant.

I hope that makes more sense. I guess my only question is, I've seen most people's clones on here w/yellow leaves, but not yours. Is it because you take such large cuttings? I'm trying to be part of the elite minority with my clones, not the noob majority!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

smartfood said:


> I guess my only question is, I've seen most people's clones on here w/yellow leaves, but not yours. Is it because you take such large cuttings?


I don't think it's the size of my cuttings as much as I (usually) get the watering right. Damp, never wet or saturated. This facilitates rapid rooting and allows the plant to replenish nutes before they are fully consumed from the leaves, which I believe to be the cause of yellowing. I get first taproots usually in 6-7 days. 

If I stuff up the watering, my clones will get stem tip rot followed by yellow leaves by day 10-11 after cutting.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 19, 2008)

AL.B what is the max amount of clones that i can put in my 2x2 flood and drain tray using a hydroton bed and 4" rock wool cubes using SOG ? Can i fit more than 9 ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> AL.B what is the max amount of clones that i can put in my 2x2 flood and drain tray using a hydroton bed and 4" rock wool cubes using SOG ? Can i fit more than 9 ?


Yes, at least 16, perhaps 20, presuming 400HPS, cooltube (as always) recommended to allow the light to be dropped to about 8" of plant tops, improving foliar penetration.

4" (100mm) cubes are not the best for cloning. Bit big for the job. They stay wet too long. They are intended as an intermediate planting medium, used commonly with hydroponic tomatoes, which are started in 40mm then nested in 100mm cubes and finally planted in NFT channels or in rockwool slabs until harvest. 

Start your cuttings in 40mm cubes for quickest rooting with lower possibility of overwatering symptoms. You can then nest the 40mm in 100mm cubes or you can go straight to your pellet bed. 

I'd prefer standard plastic pots (not netpots) of pellets in an empty flood tray to preserve plant mobility and reduce the amt of pellets per crop, tho.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yes, at least 16, perhaps 20, presuming 400HPS, cooltube (as always) recommended to allow the light to be dropped to about 8" of plant tops, improving foliar penetration.
> 
> 4" (100mm) cubes are not the best for cloning. Bit big for the job. They stay wet too long. They are intended as an intermediate planting medium, used commonly with hydroponic tomatoes, which are started in 40mm then nested in 100mm cubes and finally planted in NFT channels or in rockwool slabs until harvest.
> 
> ...


I am using a 400W Super HPS. I will be starting the clones in 1" cubes and then transferring them into the 4" cubes. Will that work OK or should i just put the clones in the 1" cubes directly into the tray?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> I am using a 400W Super HPS. I will be starting the clones in 1" cubes and then transferring them into the 4" cubes. Will that work OK or should i just put the clones in the 1" cubes directly into the tray?


You could do either. I think the plants would stand up better while their roots are not yet hooked into the pellets if you do use the 4" cubes as an intermediate medium, but there's other ways of making a plant stand up while it is developing roots. 

You would add several days to the schedule if using the intermediate cubes since you will need to wait until the roots are through the bottoms before they can go into the pellets.

In either case, the cube is nested in pellets but be sure the bottom of it is about 1/2" above the flood level. Pellets must be flooded a few times per light-on cycle. Rockwool will be totally and continuously saturated if flooded that often, which will result in overwatering symptoms (yellow lower leaves which may drop off, general wilt) in the first 8-10 days after you put the plants in the pellets.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You could do either. I think the plants would stand up better while their roots are not yet hooked into the pellets if you do use the 4" cubes as an intermediate medium, but there's other ways of making a plant stand up while it is developing roots.
> 
> You would add several days to the schedule if using the intermediate cubes since you will need to wait until the roots are through the bottoms before they can go into the pellets.
> 
> In either case, the cube is nested in pellets but be sure the bottom of it is about 1/2" above the flood level. Pellets must be flooded a few times per light-on cycle. Rockwool will be totally and continuously saturated if flooded that often, which will result in overwatering symptoms (yellow lower leaves which may drop off, general wilt) in the first 8-10 days after you put the plants in the pellets.


The cubes should be just at the very top of the flood level so just the very botom of the cubes get wet?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 20, 2008)

Al., can i get your POV on the following:

-Electricity usage, what is too much..&..what not to worry about.
-How effective are cooltubes and the like (i.e. air cooled hoods) on helping with the radiant heat put out by the light bulbs that are detected by FLIR & thermal imaging devices.
-Best ways to [help] dodge FLIR/thermal imaging.
-Polyshield? Bunch of crap or decent product? What about all those other insulated polys products?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> The cubes should be just at the very top of the flood level so just the very botom of the cubes get wet?


No!



> Originally Posted by *Al B. Fuct*
> _You could do either. I think the plants would stand up better while their roots are not yet hooked into the pellets if you do use the 4" cubes as an intermediate medium, but there's other ways of making a plant stand up while it is developing roots.
> 
> You would add several days to the schedule if using the intermediate cubes since you will need to wait until the roots are through the bottoms before they can go into the pellets.
> ...


Pellets will be sufficiently damp for roots about 1/2" ABOVE the flood line. You will want to handwater _*the **pellets around the cube*_ (*NOT* the cube) for the first several days, but the roots will find the damp pellets and work their way down. 

If the cube is being touched by the flood level, you will have overwatering symptoms. The bottom of the cubes must be _*just above*_ the flood level, by about 1/2". 

Flood 3x per lights on in the first 2-3 weeks- at lights on, then 4 hours later and once again, 4 hours later. When plants are more advanced, you may need to increase to 4-5 waterings per 'day.' Avoid watering immediately before lights-off; water no later than about 2hrs before lights off.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> Al., can i get your POV on the following:
> 
> -Electricity usage, what is too much..&..what not to worry about.


Depends on where you have the op installed. Sorta.

As a general rule, if you pay your bill in full on time EVERY time, you're just a good customer. Power companies don't usually audit customers' usage unless there's a warrant from the cops. Power usage alone won't be enough for a warrant in most cases. However, I don't think I'd want to be pulling 5kW in a 1 bedroom apt. 

My op draws 3500W for 12h/day and about 1100W for 12h/day. Of course, the bill is always paid without a whimper. Have been running this gear now for about 8 years. 



> -How effective are cooltubes and the like (i.e. air cooled hoods) on helping with the radiant heat put out by the light bulbs that are detected by FLIR & thermal imaging devices.
> -Best ways to [help] dodge FLIR/thermal imaging.
> -Polyshield? Bunch of crap or decent product? What about all those other insulated polys products?


First and foremost, you must know that FLIR is NOT an x-ray. It's a surface temperature thermometer. You could have a megawatt of light in your basement and as long as you can keep the heat from warming the walls (insulation, ya know) or blowing a huge plume of warm air outdoors where there really shouldn't be any, FLIR is blind. With or without insulation, _*FLIR can only see the temperature of the surfaces of the exterior*_ of the building housing the op. It can NOT 'see' a heat source through a wall. It CAN see a warm exterior wall. 

Stealth aircraft reduce their exhaust IR signature by spreading out the exhaust gas and mixing it with cooler air. You can do the same with warm air from a grow op. Vent into an attic or crawl space which has several vents to outdoors. Job done. 

Option B is to dump warm exhaust air into a disused chimney. Warm air is supposed to come out of chimneys, no reason for a FLIR operator to think otherwise. Don't try to share a chimney which is being used to vent gas appliances. You can blow carbon monoxide back into the living spaces.

Insulation is insulation. It all does the same thing, which is to stop thermal energy from moving through it. Any insulation product maker/seller which makes any claim about their product 'FLIRproofing' your op is blowing happy smoke up your ass. ALL proper insulation products blind FLIR. 

However, it's hard to call Polyshield 'proper insulation.' It'll usually take more than a thin film with a foil layer stuck on your walls to fully block radiant IR from warming up the structure the op is in. I don't think I'd rely on Polyshield unless there was a significant air gap (3-6") between the Polyshield film and exterior wall. 

You can buy pink batt rolls with a foil surface, R12 or better, which when used to line grow op exterior walls will prevent the outside of the walls from being any warmer than others on the house. It's the air gap in the pink fibreglas batts which stops most of the thermal transmission. 

If your curiosity is getting the best of you, it's possible to hire FLIR cameras and get a good look at what the cops might see. In Australia, you can hire one from TechRentals for about $250/day. 

However, you absolutely should not fear helos flying over your house- unless your back yard is full of buds. 

Keep it in perspective; FLIR worries me a hell of a lot less than a nosy neighbour who notices fan noise.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 20, 2008)

is it pretty much legal in au.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Depends on where you have the op installed. Sorta.
> 
> As a general rule, if you pay your bill in full on time EVERY time, you're just a good customer. Power companies don't usually audit customers' usage unless there's a warrant from the cops. Power usage alone won't be enough for a warrant in most cases. However, I don't think I'd want to be pulling 5kW in a 1 bedroom apt.
> 
> ...


 
What i have read and heard Jorge Cervantes say about FLIR is that if you have your light cycles on during the day the FLIR is useless because the FLIR only works at night,which makes sense.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yes, at least 16, perhaps 20, presuming 400HPS, cooltube (as always) recommended to allow the light to be dropped to about 8" of plant tops, improving foliar penetration.
> 
> 4" (100mm) cubes are not the best for cloning. Bit big for the job. They stay wet too long. They are intended as an intermediate planting medium, used commonly with hydroponic tomatoes, which are started in 40mm then nested in 100mm cubes and finally planted in NFT channels or in rockwool slabs until harvest.
> 
> ...


 
Would it be better to put the clones in 1" rockwool cubes or rapid rooter sponges in a bunch of small 4x4 black plastic pots with the hydrotons in them? Would 4x4 pots be OK or would the pots take more room in the tray and give me less space for clones?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 20, 2008)

very well put al...

im not worried necessarily, i just like to hear your input and opinions on certain topics. you are very insightful!

you forgot about the cooltubes....do you think cooltubes aid in being invisible to FLIR and thermal imaging?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> is it pretty much legal in au.


 um, no. My op would get me 20 years. 



stickyicky77 said:


> What i have read and heard Jorge Cervantes say about FLIR is that if you have your light cycles on during the day the FLIR is useless because the FLIR only works at night,which makes sense.


I tend to disagree. FLIR can work during the day but gets progressively 'blinder' when looking for the heat signature of a grow op as the ambient air temp rises, creating less contrast between the target thermal signal and the ambient thermal 'noise'. Keep in mind that FLIR is a surface temp thermometer and can look at numerous surfaces in a single frame, giving a differential display. If other objects in frame are close to the temp of the target, the target won't be very well defined in the FLIR display image. 

If a wall is in full sun, it will be warmer than any grow op could make it, so FLIR IS blind in that instance. However, if a grow room is in an uninsulated or minimally insulated structure and FLIR is used to look at a shady side of the structure, FLIR would see a warm exterior wall. It would be hard to tell if the heat was coming from an op or from other heating during the day. FLIR will work best at night or on cool, overcast days because of the higher contrast between the target and thermal 'noise.'



LoudBlunts said:


> you forgot about the cooltubes....do you think cooltubes aid in being invisible to FLIR and thermal imaging?


Cooltubes can be an important part of FLIR defences but by themselves do nothing against FLIR _per se_; they just move heat somewhere else. 

They do reduce buildup of warm air in the growroom because they don't allow the room's airmass to contact the HPS bottle. They trap a lot of radiated IR but not all of it. Long wave IR is stopped in the tube. Some short-wave IR escapes and if it can contact uninsulated exterior walls, will make the other side of them appear warm to FLIR. 

FLIR can see concentrations of warm air but generally only in the immediate vicinity of an exhaust which is significantly warmer than the surrounding air. Diffusing exhaust through an intermediate airmass such as an attic drops its temperature as well as distributes the cooled air through several structural vents, Unless one has an IR image of the structure when it was known that there was no grow op installed, it would be hard for a FLIR operator to tell that the attic/crawlspace vents are unusually warm.

If you're worried about FLIR, you need to insulate your walls and diffuse your warm exhaust air, usually via an attic or crawlspace intermediate airmass, either from cooltubes or the main exhaust blower. 

If you'd like to see what FLIR sees, look at this sales brochure for FLIR cameras. 



stickyicky77 said:


> Would it be better to put the clones in 1" rockwool cubes or rapid rooter sponges in a bunch of small 4x4 black plastic pots with the hydrotons in them? Would 4x4 pots be OK or would the pots take more room in the tray and give me less space for clones?


I don't like rapid rooters, jiffy pots etc which are made from organic materials (usually compressed peat or coconut coir). These organic materials can support mould growth and can fragment, making a mess in recirculating hydro systems. 

Yes, if I _*had*_ to use pellets (and I really kinda hate them for a half dozen reasons including weight, difficulty of disposal, difficulty in cleaning and sterilisation of them which limits reusability without transferring root problems crop to crop) I'd prefer to use individual pots of them rather than plants in an entire bed of them. They'll keep the rootmasses from knitting, allowing you to pickup and move the plants around for evening out growth, spraying, etc. 4" cube pots might work, but that's a pretty small rootmass. I'd prefer something closer to 6".


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 20, 2008)

al, like i said before, not really worried about it, i just believe the biggest defense or the biggest tools in war is intelligence and knowledge. never hurts to ask/research/question. I like your advice, you do a great job of explaining everything MORE THAN ONCE, that must be frustrating...very commendable bro! I just wanted your advice & input, especially since you've helped me from day one

you mention attic and crawlspace. i just read/watched barry copper's new video. he mentioned distributing the air under the house if possible. that way the area is evenly distributed? do you agree? i guess you just said that aye?

another thing. In you opinion....say a 3 or 4 bedroom house using maybe a 1000watter 12/12 everyday, the whole cycle.....as well as MAYBE a 1000watter mh every now and again, on top of [house] regular use, would you think that may be too much? what shouldnt i go over if i was to add more lights?

and as far as cutting and exhausting. i rent, so i use a window fan that intakes and exhaust the air with two fans in one unit. i also use cabs. intake down below and exhaust out the top. do you think im venting efficiently? the central a/c will also be ran just like a normal room via vents.... do you think the air exhausting out the window fan should be worried about?

and of course, i want to give props where they are due, once more. you are a great asset to any community! you may not know it all...and you may call yourself a lazy stoner, but you damn sure know a little bit of everything aye? how they say it? master of none jack of all trades? i want to thank you for continuous support and willingness to help everybody...no matter how redundant the question may be!!!!! peace beyond to you my friend!!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al, like i said before, not really worried about it, i just believe the biggest defense or the biggest tools in war is intelligence and knowledge. never hurts to ask/research/question. I like your advice, you do a great job of explaining everything MORE THAN ONCE, that must be frustrating...very commendable bro! I just wanted your advice & input, especially since you've helped me from day one


No worries, happy to do what I can. Some things I don't mind repeating because they're buried deep in the thread and they'd be hard for ppl to find. It's often easier for me to repeat something than look it up and quote it. 

However, I do appreciate it when ppl have done some independent research in the FAQ, etc for the real building-block basics. I don't have to refer ppl to the FAQ much but I do from time to time when they've clearly not done the prereqs.



> you mention attic and crawlspace. i just read/watched barry copper's new video. he mentioned distributing the air under the house if possible. that way the area is evenly distributed? do you agree? i guess you just said that aye?


Yep. 



> another thing. In you opinion....say a 3 or 4 bedroom house using maybe a 1000watter 12/12 everyday, the whole cycle.....as well as MAYBE a 1000watter mh every now and again, on top of [house] regular use, would you think that may be too much? what shouldnt i go over if i was to add more lights?


I think you could safely double my op, or at least add another pair of 1000s to it for 12h day. Comes a point where you are taking enough of the maximum capacity of the AC mains supply to the house that you interfere with normal residential uses. My place has 240V AC mains @ 60A max, but 30A is going to the water heater (when it comes on, it rarely does now I have solar water heat). My op uses 14.7A with everything running, leaving 15.3A for everything else in the house. 



> and as far as cutting and exhausting. i rent, so i use a window fan that intakes and exhaust the air with two fans in one unit. i also use cabs. intake down below and exhaust out the top. do you think im venting efficiently?


I'm a little concerned about your window exhaust being so close to your intake unless something has been done to prevent the exhaust from being drawn right back in the op. 

Your locations of blowers in your wardrobes is OK. 



> the central a/c will also be ran just like a normal room via vents.... do you think the air exhausting out the window fan should be worried about?


_*IF*_ you were worried about FLIR, you'd worry about discharging your warm air as you are. That window would glow like a fireplace on FLIR. 



> and of course, i want to give props where they are due, once more. you are a great asset to any community! you may not know it all...and you may call yourself a lazy stoner, but you damn sure know a little bit of everything aye? how they say it? master of none jack of all trades? i want to thank you for continuous support and willingness to help everybody...no matter how redundant the question may be!!!!! peace beyond to you my friend!!!


aw, shucks. *blush*

thanks.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 20, 2008)

okay...could you point me, or give me ideas/pointers in how you would design a more efficient way of exhausting in my situation?

the only reason i had the window fan is to exchange fresh air from outside.

but im guessing if im using central air to cool the room, it really wont matter as i keep my ambient temps in check?

did i just solve my own dilemma? even my dilemma for the summer? would the central a/c use that much electricity cost wise to cool the room?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> okay...could you point me, or give me ideas/pointers in how you would design a more efficient way of exhausting in my situation?
> 
> the only reason i had the window fan is to exchange fresh air from outside.
> 
> ...


Phwoaaar... you have central air.. and you didn't mention it til now?! 

Yes, problem solved. 

You'll save a lot of dough on central air if you can source and dump the cooltubes through the window, but with central air, you really never need open a window. Even if you don't dump the cooltubes to outdoors, they get heat out of the room before it can get to the plants. Your central air will shift the thermal energy outside, but you'll pay for the privilege. Your aircon will run more often. 


Looked up a pic of what a grow op might look like on FLIR if the exterior wall is poorly insulated and the grow is fairly warm:


----------



## Enigma (Mar 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Phwoaaar... you have central air.. and you didn't mention it til now?!
> 
> Yes, problem solved.
> 
> ...


So an insulated Secret Jardin Dark Room would work well?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

Enigma said:


> So an insulated Secret Jardin Dark Room would work well?


An insulated, secret, lightproof room is needed- but what's a Jardin?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 21, 2008)

its a grow tent that is thermally insulated


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 21, 2008)

And Enigma....he's telling us that yes...insulation is better than no insulation.

but we still have to handle the air that comes out the vents/ports of the tent.

i think secret jardin dark rooms are quite possibly the best damn grow tent out there.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 21, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> And Enigma....he's telling us that yes...insulation is better than no insulation.
> 
> but we still have to handle the air that comes out the vents/ports of the tent.
> 
> i think secret jardin dark rooms are quite possibly the best damn grow tent out there.


I was thinking the insulation and heat reflective material would big a big bonus for a grow room. The ventilation won't be a big deal. The house is kept around 70 deg f. There will be a vent for the cooltube and a vent for the room that is filtered twice with carbon. That should keep things quiet and not so smelly. Everything will be circulated inside so no worries about heat concentration outside.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

k, I hit the web and looked for these 'secret Jardin dark rooms.' 

Like all ready-made grow tents, these are WAY overpriced compared to what you can make with one trip to the hdwe store and an hour's work with some common tools.

A grow tent placed in the middle of a room could have a very significant air gap between the tent and the structure. There's your insulation- in the air gap. No more needed.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> k, I hit the web and looked for these 'secret Jardin dark rooms.'
> 
> Like all ready-made grow tents, these are WAY overpriced compared to what you can make with one trip to the hdwe store and an hour's work with some common tools.
> 
> A grow tent placed in the middle of a room could have a very significant air gap between the tent and the structure. There's your insulation- in the air gap. No more needed.


Well, I found one that is 4x4x6.5 with one main door and two side doors with ventilation, reflective material, and insulated for $240. All of that with adjustable roof cross-members and a warranty settles it. Just one less thing to do at this point.. I wouldn't mind building one, but this thing even has its own *carrying bag* to move it.

I'm sold.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 21, 2008)

What i have read in Jorge Cervantes Grow Bible is that you can hook up your exhaust to a chamber with a ozone generator in it to kill any residual smell and subcool the exhaust. I personally have a Homebox with a 6" in-line duct fan and a carbon filter. I have the Homebox set up in a large closet. Then i have a ozone generator going in the room that the closet is in. Also for a back up i have a 5 gallon bucket with a lid on it and a hole cut in the lid with a 120 cfm computer fan attached to the lid. The bucket has holes drilled in the sides of it and i have some Soil Moist crystals with some liquid ONA in it. I can set the fan on a timer and let it cycle on and off through out the day if i need to. I do not vent any exhaust outside because i have a central AC system and i keep my temp set at 74 F all day and at night 70-74 F.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 21, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Well, I found one that is 4x4x6.5 with one main door and two side doors with ventilation, reflective material, and insulated for $240. All of that with adjustable roof cross-members and a warranty settles it. Just one less thing to do at this point.. I wouldn't mind building one, but this thing even has its own *carrying bag* to move it.
> 
> I'm sold.


Check out the Homebox buy-the-homebox.com - universal indoor grow box kit. I own 2 of them, 1 XS one for vegging 2x2x4 and 1 SM one for flowering that is a 3x3x6 . They are reasonably priced and are very good quality and they have a lot of differant sizes to meet your growing needs. I have been very happy with my investment.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Well, I found one that is 4x4x6.5 with one main door and two side doors with ventilation, reflective material, and insulated for $240. All of that with adjustable roof cross-members and a warranty settles it. Just one less thing to do at this point.. I wouldn't mind building one, but this thing even has its own *carrying bag* to move it.
> 
> I'm sold.


Yep, I agree- you've been sold. 

If you could not build an equivalent for under $50 (sans fans), I'd be stunned. 

How often are you planning to move this thing? Enough to merit a carry bag? Bit of a useless accessory, IMNSFHO. A grow room is not a laptop or an iPod.

Keep in mind that when installing in a new location, fitting points for fans/ducts, entry flap, etc may not be in the same places as in the old installation. You wind up with a patchup job and a lot of pinholing from putting up and taking down and moving the tent.

When I move house, my grow rooms have been totally torn down and a completely new one built in the new location (in the reverse of that order, actually- I need a new room to put the plants in before I tear down the old one- lights, fans & flood systems move with the plants). I'll salvage what timbers I can, but old panda film, accumulated pinholes and all, goes straight to the bin.

Being a stoned slacker, I _can_ appreciate the virtues of sacrificing money in exchange for not having to work very hard. However, I was a _*cheap** bastard*_ long before I was a *stoned slacker*.... Spending 5x more than I need to for a commercially made copy of something I can knock up myself in an hour or so, wherever possible, annoys the bejesus out of the skinflint in me.


----------



## ccodiane (Mar 21, 2008)

Your good, your very good..........


----------



## TLR (Mar 21, 2008)

Would this be possible to do with a rubbermaid setup and LSTing the plants, but at the same time cutting the lower branches to get the wanted effect?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> What i have read in Jorge Cervantes Grow Bible is that you can hook up your exhaust to a chamber with a ozone generator in it to kill any residual smell and subcool the exhaust. I personally have a Homebox with a 6" in-line duct fan and a carbon filter. I have the Homebox set up in a large closet. Then i have a ozone generator going in the room that the closet is in. Also for a back up i have a 5 gallon bucket with a lid on it and a hole cut in the lid with a 120 cfm computer fan attached to the lid. The bucket has holes drilled in the sides of it and i have some Soil Moist crystals with some liquid ONA in it. I can set the fan on a timer and let it cycle on and off through out the day if i need to. I do not vent any exhaust outside because i have a central AC system and i keep my temp set at 74 F all day and at night 70-74 F.


Good one from JC there.

Sounds like a good op! 

With ozone, the scent mask probably isn't necessary- and may in itself be a giveaway. Also, O3 breaks down when it comes in contact with molecules it can oxidise. You may be using up your O3 breaking down scent mask molecules. 

Try your system without the scent mask and see how you go with an independent nose doing your testing for you, if possible.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

TLR said:


> Would this be possible to do with a rubbermaid setup and LSTing the plants, but at the same time cutting the lower branches to get the wanted effect?


Don't know what you mean by "a rubbermaid setup."

Also don't know why you'd need to muck around with 'LST' or bending plants if you have not vegged the newly rooted clones before they go into the flowering area. If you have sufficient light and temps are right, the plants will not elongate, thus not requiring any measure to keep them away from the light.


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Mar 21, 2008)

I think he is referring to a rubbermaid dwc, or something of that ilk.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

PlasmaRadio said:


> I think he is referring to a rubbermaid dwc, or something of that ilk.


Hmm, OK. 

While I love the oxygenation that DWC can supply to the roots, the stoned slacker in me loves the fail-safe nature of pots of absorbent media in a flood system. I can ignore the system for a few days if I get a 'slack attack.' I also like the mobility of plants in pots for maintenance and evening out growth by moving plants into more preferential lighting positions as needed.


----------



## purpletrainwreck (Mar 21, 2008)

I do a similar routine... but hey it works....


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Good one from JC there.
> 
> Sounds like a good op!
> 
> ...


I am not using the ONA set up right now. I have it it ready to go as a back up if i need it. It never hurts to be prepared for a worst case scenario.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> I am not using the ONA set up right now. I have it it ready to go as a back up if i need it. It never hurts to be prepared for a worst case scenario.


Agreed, you never know when an ozonator fluoro tube will quit and keeping a scent mask around is cheaper than keeping a $90 replacement UV tube... but then again, a tube won't rot on the shelf. 6 o' one, half dozen o'... well, you know.


----------



## TLR (Mar 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Don't know what you mean by "a rubbermaid setup."
> 
> Also don't know why you'd need to muck around with 'LST' or bending plants if you have not vegged the newly rooted clones before they go into the flowering area. If you have sufficient light and temps are right, the plants will not elongate, thus not requiring any measure to keep them away from the light.


I meant a rubbermaid setup like this






I only asked about LSTing plants because I'd only be able to grow in a confined space like the pic I posted and I was wondering if LST is the only way to keep plants from getting huge but still being able to flower, etc.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

Zero veg time will help you keep plants short, but this pair of containers is just too short when you consider the height of pots and spacing needed for lighting- needs to be about one more tub taller. You won't have much choice but to bend them over with it as it is. If you can't make the thing any taller than this, you may want to ScrOG instead of SoG. In a box this small, you'll be tempted to flower with CFLs- a guaranteed way to shitty buds. 

It'd be just as much work and expense to get it wrong as right. If you can spare the space, go buy a freestanding wardrobe about 2m tall and build your grow in that. Copy this guy. This wardrobe with a 250HPS is just brilliant.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 21, 2008)

iIm setting up a grow room within a room just like the prof says. Once it is all set up all put a pic up.  You know what is missing on this amazing thread Al, an updated pic of the flowers right before harvest.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> You know what is missing on this amazing thread Al, an updated pic of the flowers right before harvest.


If I were to put up a bud shot every time I did a harvest, I'd get kicked off RIU for eating up all the drive space.  

Honestly, it looks the same most of the time. A pic from tray4 from 6mos ago looks about like it does now. 

If I think if it, I'll shoot a pic next time I'm in the op, but it's harvesting time... and I gotta get back to the motherfucking manicuring... grr... bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse


----------



## FrostickZero (Mar 21, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> iIm setting up a grow room within a room just like the prof says. Once it is all set up all put a pic up.  You know what is missing on this amazing thread Al, an updated pic of the flowers right before harvest.


well I have changed my gorw area so it kinda looks better then on my comp dest


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 21, 2008)

if I had 35 plants per tray would I have to add additional lights, other that the 2 1000w.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 21, 2008)

FZ, what's your problem? You post inane shit in random threads. Trying to build the ol' post count- or are you just a dickhead troll?

bigal, adding lights doesn't increase light intensity. If your foliar mass is too dense for a 1000HPS, you need fewer plants, not more lights.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If I were to put up a bud shot every time I did a harvest, I'd get kicked off RIU for eating up all the drive space.
> 
> Honestly, it looks the same most of the time. A pic from tray4 from 6mos ago looks about like it does now.
> 
> If I think if it, I'll shoot a pic next time I'm in the op, but it's harvesting time... and I gotta get back to the motherfucking manicuring... grr... bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse


I can't wait until i have that kind of problem..lol


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 22, 2008)

Luv ya Al.....no response necessary! Just thought I would spread the love to a great farmer....


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 22, 2008)

Al, what is something similar to the flytocel you use, ive been looking for it and have been comin up short, even my hydro shop couldnt help me, most the other mediums at the walmart and home depot are more absorbant mediums than repellents. i have loose rockwool now(absorbant kind) and was basically just gonna copy what you do but i mite need to adjust by the looks of it, also my timer only works in fiftenn minute intervals so i dont want to use all rockwool getting watered for 15min. at a time


----------



## MoutainPeeps (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks for the breakdown..I think SOG is going to be the way to go.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 22, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> Al, what is something similar to the flytocel you use, ive been looking for it and have been comin up short, even my hydro shop couldnt help me, most the other mediums at the walmart and home depot are more absorbant mediums than repellents. i have loose rockwool now(absorbant kind) and was basically just gonna copy what you do but i mite need to adjust by the looks of it, also my timer only works in fiftenn minute intervals so i dont want to use all rockwool getting watered for 15min. at a time


Ask your local hydro shop to contact Fytogreen's USA rep:



> *USA*
> New Age Gardening have been appointed the US Distributor for Fytocell. Their contact details are as follows:
> 
> 
> [email protected], Ph (562) 789 0345, Fax (562) 789 8479


In the meantime, replace your mechanical timer with a digital type. Digitals allow single minute run times and as many as 24 (or more) of those cycles per day.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 23, 2008)

Al, thanks for the thread and all the great Q&A. 

I have a couple questions on some remarks of yours from the last couple pages:

-- On flood/drain vs. DWC -- could you elaborate on why you think flood/drain is more slacker friendly? It seems like DWC is pretty brainless, and with less to fail when you're not paying attention, but you're by far more experienced a grower than I--so what am I missing?

--Flowering under CFLs--I've been preparing a scrog in a long, short horizontal cabinet that I don't think is workable w/o relying on CFLs: the bulbs are barely more than an inch or two away from the cabinet walls, and the buds will grow up from the hydro sites between the bulbs. I've been reading a lot of CFL journals and have seen a fair number of good looking flowering pics. Is it your opinion that weed flowered under CFL is *always* inferior to that under HPS, or that it's a lot harder to get enough light and setup right under CFLs to equal an HPS setup? 

I'm not arguing, just looking to pick your brain. ;P 

Again, thanks for all the great posts.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 23, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Al, thanks for the thread and all the great Q&A.
> 
> I have a couple questions on some remarks of yours from the last couple pages:
> 
> ...


If you use CFL's for flowering your buds will be light puffy popcorn balls. You need to use HPS to get large dense buds. CFL's put out the least amount of lumins and also cost the same amount of money to operate per kw hr as a HPS does. The only reason to use them would be for the amount of heat they put out in a small confined space but you can get around that by using cool tubes and good ventilation. Why would you want light puffy buds if you are going to put all that time, $ and effort into growing? CFL's are good for vegging but you really need a HPS for flowering. That's my 2 cents on CFL's.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 23, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> If you use CFL's for flowering your buds will be light puffy popcorn balls. You need to use HPS to get large dense buds. CFL's put out the least amount of lumins and also cost the same amount of money to operate per kw hr as a HPS does. The only reason to use them would be for the amount of heat they put out in a small confined space but you can get around that by using cool tubes and good ventilation. Why would you want light puffy buds if you are going to put all that time, $ and effort into growing? CFL's are good for vegging but you really need a HPS for flowering. That's my 2 cents on CFS.


I know traditional tube flouros are said to flower light, airy and poorly formed buds, but there seem to be plenty of pics on RIU that show CFL grows with good flowering. The See More Buds vids/book would seem to support the possibility, at least. 

Practically speaking, I'll get to see for myself, as I have a closet w/a 430W HPS and then the little cabinet that I'm trying to set up for six flood/drain sites under a row of staggered CFLs. Seems like I should be able to get one decent small cola from each clone if the buds grow up from the screen into the space between multiple 32 & 40 watt bulbs. 

Anyway, I was just curious if Al was making a relative comparison (HPS is always better) or an absolute statement (CFLs are never worth the bother.)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 23, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> -- On flood/drain vs. DWC -- could you elaborate on why you think flood/drain is more slacker friendly? It seems like DWC is pretty brainless, and with less to fail when you're not paying attention, but you're by far more experienced a grower than I--so what am I missing?


DWC has much MORE to break than flood. DWC requires a constant air supply or roots will drown in hours. If an air pump fails or an air stone becomes fully or partially blocked with nute salts, you're screwed. I would not run a DWC without redundant air pumps and stones/bubble curtains (and spares on the shelf). If your area is prone to power failures, a modified UPS for a computer can run an air pump for a day or so depending on the size of the battery added to the UPS. Even if you can't run lights due to a power outage, a DWC still needs an air supply.

If a water pump fails in a flood system with pots of absorbent media, you have 24-48 hours (dependent on plant size) to catch it. Floods can go without tank aeration for weeks, but they work much better with it. There's no possible hardware failure in a flood system that will leave you in the lurch if the fault happens at the beginning of a long holiday weekend when all the shops are shut. In terms of power failure survivability, floods beat DWC hands down as no watering is needed if you can't run the lights- and you can always handwater. I wanna see the poor sod with a bicycle pump trying to keep his DWC alive while the power company is repairing storm damage.

DWC is great stuff. Owing to the lack of media, it is possible to get much more O2 to the exposed roots than with roots in pots of media in a flood system. However, that performance has a reliability trade-off, that being the loss of fail-safes. 

I can guarantee you that over time, I have lost less production to using the somewhat less productive flood system than I would have lost from power or pump failures in DWC, where I would have potentially lost a tray (or 4) at a time. 



> --Flowering under CFLs--I've been preparing a scrog in a long, short horizontal cabinet that I don't think is workable w/o relying on CFLs: the bulbs are barely more than an inch or two away from the cabinet walls, and the buds will grow up from the hydro sites between the bulbs.


What's a hydro site?

Turn your long, squat cabinet on one end and you'll be much better off. 



> I've been reading a lot of CFL journals and have seen a fair number of good looking flowering pics. Is it your opinion that weed flowered under CFL is *always* inferior to that under HPS, or that it's a lot harder to get enough light and setup right under CFLs to equal an HPS setup?


It's not a lot _harder_ to get a CFL setup to equal an HPS- it's _impossible_. Won't happen, simply due to the inherent limitation of low intensity light from low pressure mercury arc (aka fluorescent) lighting. You can put that idea out of your head right now.

Because the low intensity light of CFL tends to cause elongation of the plant, there will be a couple of inches between nodes. That's further than the effective range of a CFL for flowering cannabis. The only CFL flowering I have ever seen that was even remotely successful took several CFLs in clip-mount bell reflectors on a pole beside the plant, pointed at bud clusters along the mainstem. Several CFLs _*PER PLANT*_ to get light within 2" of each bud cluster. As the plants grow, lights will have to be moved to suit. This is a _daily_ event!

The lower intensity of CFL results in slower and less vigorous growth than under HPS. You can add about 30% to veg & flower times of HPS and still won't get the same veg mass (as in mothers) or bud weight yield.

Now, work out how much you smoke. Figure on 1/4-1/3oz per heroically CFL-flowered plant. How long will it take to grow with CFL, how many plants will you need, how many CFLs per plant, how many watts do they consume compared to a small HPS, to make enough smoke for you?

The low intensity of CFL simply doesn't produce rock-hard, will-support-a-brick-without-smooshing-flat bud density, even if you give each bud its own CFL. Cannabis relies on high intensity to drive production of tight buds. 

So, is CFL ALWAYS inferior to HPS for flowering? Yep. Absolutely. 



stickyicky77 said:


> If you use CFL's for flowering your buds will be light puffy popcorn balls. You need to use HPS to get large dense buds. CFL's put out the least amount of lumins and also cost the same amount of money to operate per kw hr as a HPS does. The only reason to use them would be for the amount of heat they put out in a small confined space but you can get around that by using cool tubes and good ventilation. Why would you want light puffy buds if you are going to put all that time, $ and effort into growing? CFL's are good for vegging but you really need a HPS for flowering. That's my 2 cents on CFS.


Yeah, what he said. 

(except that HPS is significantly more efficient than CFLs in watts/lumen, on the order of ~30%... which is a bit meaningless as you'll never find a CFL with similar luminous intensity to HPS and ganged CFLs' lumen ratings don't add!)



Maccabee said:


> I know traditional tube flouros are said to flower light, airy and poorly formed buds, but there seem to be plenty of pics on RIU that show CFL grows with good flowering. The See More Buds vids/book would seem to support the possibility, at least.
> 
> Practically speaking, I'll get to see for myself, as I have a closet w/a 430W HPS and then the little cabinet that I'm trying to set up for six flood/drain sites under a row of staggered CFLs. Seems like I should be able to get one decent small cola from each clone if the buds grow up from the screen into the space between multiple 32 & 40 watt bulbs.
> 
> Anyway, I was just curious if Al was making a relative comparison (HPS is always better) or an absolute statement (CFLs are never worth the bother.)


The higher output CFLs are roughly equivalent to T5HO tube fluoros. There's really not a hell of a lot of difference between CFL and cylindrical fluoro tubes other than the electronic ballast, and we don't much care how we limit current to our fluoro tube, whether that's with semiconductor or inductive devices. CFL and tubes are both low pressure mercury arc lights and behave similarly. CFLs with spiral tubes may look mighty interesting, but they are in fact the least efficient sort. The spiral shape means that half the surface area of the tube is facing another part of the tube, blocking the light. You can't see the shadow, but the light from one part of the tube does not pass through the other parts. Only a straight cylinder lamp shape has no interference in light distribution owing to its own shape. 

You'd be about the squillionth person to try parallel CFL and HPS grows. There's lots of pictorials around. It's not uncommon to see such experiments abandoned around wk 6 of flowering when the HPS buds are beginning to pile on weight while the CFL raised plants are still thin and weedy. 

Rotsaruck, but I think you have come up with a round thing, novel to you, when everyone else has been using wheels for years. 

Really, this CFL-HPS thing has been done to death. We know what works better and precisely why. You can dick around or you can just get down to growing some dope.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 23, 2008)

In what will probably not be my last comment on flowering with CFLs, despite my fervent desire not to have to address this topic a whole lot more, I do have to discuss the comments of ppl who have tried both HPS and fluoros or CFLs in the same op and found they got better results from the fluoros. 

If fluoros work better in a given grow room than HPS, the problem isn't the HPS light, it's the failure of the grower to set up the room correctly to adequately remove the heat that HPS light makes. It's not the light- it's the room. 

New growers often dramatically underestimate the amount of ventilation a grow room needs, let alone one with HPS lighting. Between the HPS tube itself and a magnetic ballast, a 1000W HPS pretty easily makes as much heat as a small fan heater set on 'low.' Run a little heater in your prospective cabinet or closet grow room for 10 mins and you'll see what I mean. 

I'm gonna start sounding like I own stock in Corning Glass Works, but cooltubes are truly the best bang for the indoor cannabis grower's buck I've seen in years. Buy a commercially made one or bodge one up out of a Pyrex Bake-A-Round, I can promise that it will make a dramatic difference to your HPS fired op. Keeping the lamp heat off the plants makes worlds of difference in halting runny bud formation ('bolting') and increasing density. 

Cooltubes make much smaller grows possible with more powerful lighting as the lamp to leaf spacing requirements are roughly halved.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks for the great reply, Al.



> What are hydro sites?


Hydro sites would probably be better said as 'plant sites.' 

I was a little too hasty starting in on construction and assembled a flood/drain system that has individual containers for each plant rather than two 1'x1.5' trays (which would have probably been better.) The thing I built is essentially a loop of 1" PVC, elevated above it's reservoir, with risers to containers that nets pot slip into. When the system floods, the water level (adjustable via a vertically telescoping overflow at the end of the loop) enters the container through the riser and comes about halfway up the net pot. I thought it made sense at the time, but now I can't remember what advantage I thought it would afford over a tray or trough system (probably precise positioning under the spaces between the lights), and there are plenty of downsides including the critical few inches of vertical space under each site lost to the pipes running the length of the cab, the risers from the pipe to each container, etc. 

What you're saying about flood and drain vs. DWC makes good sense. I ask because my closet is currently a soilless mix grow, and I'd like to take it hydro. Doing drip would be simple, but I think I'd prefer DWC or F&D. DWC might be better for the space--would the aeration issue be at all improved if the system were recirculating?

In the F&D--I had planned on using non-absorbent material in the cabinet--mostly hydroton and hygromite--and flooding once every 2.5 hours or so...maybe I should re-think that?

I dig what you're saying on CFLs vs HPS. Since I've already thrown together my HPS closet and CFL cabinet I suppose I'll just sit back for now and expect the closet to kick the snot out of the cabinet. If it gets ridiculous enough, perhaps I'll see if I can substitute a few mini HPS wallpacks for the staggered CFLs and find a way of extracting the additional heat. I'll probably end up re-doing the hydro system in the cabinet as trays or troughs anyways, so I'll have the opportunity to fiddle. 


Thanks, again. Much appreciated.


----------



## ccodiane (Mar 23, 2008)

Have you already posted your flood solution for flower? Any additives to the soil? I will go back and check, all 90 some pages, and see.......


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 23, 2008)

soil????????


----------



## ccodiane (Mar 23, 2008)

Got it, thanks.........


----------



## ccodiane (Mar 23, 2008)

Best thread yet.......


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Ask your local hydro shop to contact Fytogreen's USA rep:
> 
> In the meantime, replace your mechanical timer with a digital type. Digitals allow single minute run times and as many as 24 (or more) of those cycles per day.


k i got the digital timer Al prob be here in 2 week just about when first cuttins will be coming off. but if im stuck with just the rockwool for my medium by then, how long should i run my flood for and how many times, i have 4 130gph for 4 flowering tables 2'x4' covering a 4'x8' area with a 600 watt hps on a 6' light mover and 1 80gph for a 23"x34" flood table which is the veg table with a 400 watt hps running 24 hr/day?



Al B. Fuct said:


> In what will probably not be my last comment on flowering with CFLs, despite my fervent desire not to have to address this topic a whole lot more, I do have to discuss the comments of ppl who have tried both HPS and fluoros or CFLs in the same op and found they got better results from the fluoros.
> 
> If fluoros work better in a given grow room than HPS, the problem isn't the HPS light, it's the failure of the grower to set up the room correctly to adequately remove the heat that HPS light makes. It's not the light- it's the room.
> 
> ...


AMEN
hydroponic supplies and equipment for hydroponic grow systems : Canadian Wholesale Hydroponics. 1 (877) 226-4769
FOR CANADIANS, not these exact ones but this guy sells the good cooltubes with the reflective batwing for $10 more then these you just have to call him!!! ill get a pic of mine on here cant beat a good cooltube for $120+25shipping



LoudBlunts said:


> soil????????


i knew youd get him quik lol.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 23, 2008)

the cool star plus from canada is fucking bad ass!!!! 150 bucks tho!!!


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 23, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> the cool star plus from canada is fucking bad ass!!!! 150 bucks tho!!!


i think thats the one i got, he has that shitty one u see but when i called he told bout the good ones and i got them 4 at 120=480+100shipping. was 145 a cooltube, in canada tho bro you cant find decent cooltubes for less than $250, not Toronto not Montreal not nowhere.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 23, 2008)

well cooltubes suck unless you have a fire ass reflector.

i think that is why i like the cool star plus so much!!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 23, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> k i got the digital timer Al prob be here in 2 week just about when first cuttins will be coming off. but if im stuck with just the rockwool for my medium by then, how long should i run my flood for and how many times,


Rockwool is so absorbent that you could run your pump just long enough to flood to 25-50mm (1-2") deep, then shut down. The exact run interval depends on the flow rate of your pump and size of the tray. Might be 1 min, might be 3-4. Put a ruler in the corner of the tray and hit the pump, measure the amount of time and use that figure to program your timer.

You'll probably only need to water once a day at lights-on.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 23, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> well cooltubes suck unless you have a fire ass reflector.
> 
> i think that is why i like the cool star plus so much!!!


The CSP looks like a nice bit of kit but it's overpriced. It's easy to save about $60-80 off their price by making a batwing reflector (see FAQ link in my signature) and fitting it to a much cheaper, reflectorless cooltube.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 23, 2008)

yo al.....you still using a thermostat and control the warm air on the bud dryer? and upgrades?


im looking for another solution to a tad bit warmer air


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 24, 2008)

LB, I just posted a small update to the dryer thread. See here.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 24, 2008)

good deal....only the link in your sig is to the one in the growfaqs...


i found it tho!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 24, 2008)

yep, I had to change the link destination to get you to the right place.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The CSP looks like a nice bit of kit but it's overpriced. It's easy to save about $60-80 off their price by making a batwing reflector (see FAQ link in my signature) and fitting it to a much cheaper, reflectorless cooltube.


AL have you seen the cool tube that is water cooled? I have been considering one due to space restrictions. Its not practical to have additional fans and ventilation for my Homebox. The water cooled tubes circulate water through the tube to remove the heat. It requires a small rez and a pump. The hood i have now is a air cooled hood but i have no way of hooking it up to the in line exhaust fan because of my carbon filter is already attached to it. To air cool my hood i would need to hook another exhaust fan to it and then the air would not be filtered through the carbon filter which would defeat the purpose of the carbon filter.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 24, 2008)

he elabed on those already, NOT TO SLACKER friendly and to much to go wrong, i think it was in the 70 page range.

which air cooled hood do you havethe single outlet from the top or the dual outlet one on either end? if you have the single out the top then i see your dilemma but if you have the other it can be done start with: carbon filter-->duct-->one end of hood-->duct out other end of hood-->exhaust fan.

what is your width restriction i have a cool tube it is 31" long, if you put a 90' on each end it would be about 41" long, kinda give you an idea of how much room to work with..


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 24, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> he elabed on those already, NOT TO SLACKER friendly and to much to go wrong, i think it was in the 70 page range.
> 
> which air cooled hood do you havethe single outlet from the top or the dual outlet one on either end? if you have the single out the top then i see your dilemma but if you have the other it can be done start with: carbon filter-->duct-->one end of hood-->duct out other end of hood-->exhaust fan.
> 
> what is your width restriction i have a cool tube it is 31" long, if you put a 90' on each end it would be about 41" long, kinda give you an idea of how much room to work with..


This is my Homebox buy-the-homebox.com - universal indoor grow box kit and this is my hood with a 400W Super HPS and digital ballast Sunleaves :: Sunleaves ArcticSun Reflector and i have a 6" in line duct fan with a carbon filter. The problem i am having is that the cord for the light is on one end so i can not hook up a duct at that end. I also have a 2x2 flood and drain tray with 14 pots in it. I was thinking about a cool tube like this one but it is a lot of $$ Brite*Ideas*Hydroponics*and...


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 24, 2008)

is it open tho? the end of the hood where the cord is? if so you can put duct on it and you just slit the duct so your cord falls thru and use foil tape around it. Rig it it will work just make sure its sealed, you should head over to the growroom forum tho for more room info. i personally agree with al on the slacker friendly thing, also that price is crazy...


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 24, 2008)

Yeah, ventilate your light on it's own separate circuit of ducting with its own blower fan (attach the blower intake to the return duct.) That should make a dramatic difference. My closet would be impossible w/o doing that.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 24, 2008)

Yeah, i guess i will run the fan through it and then vent it out. I will have to make sure it is sealed well where the cord goes through the duct. My temps right now with no air running through is 85 F. How many degrees do you think it will drop the temp when i hook up the exhaust to it ?


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 24, 2008)

Mine went from somewhere in the low 90's to the low 80's on 24/0 or high 70's on 12/12 . I didn't really take precise measurements before I hooked it up, as that was always the plan. I'd be scared to run the fixture any other way in the space it's in.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 24, 2008)

Hey Al, Check out this link....  The lightbulb of the future? video - CNET TV  ...........

Have you seen this technology before?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 24, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> AL have you seen the cool tube that is water cooled? I have been considering one due to space restrictions. Its not practical to have additional fans and ventilation for my Homebox. The water cooled tubes circulate water through the tube to remove the heat. It requires a small rez and a pump. The hood i have now is a air cooled hood but i have no way of hooking it up to the in line exhaust fan because of my carbon filter is already attached to it. To air cool my hood i would need to hook another exhaust fan to it and then the air would not be filtered through the carbon filter which would defeat the purpose of the carbon filter.


If there's any way you can avoid using a water cooling system, do it. 

If you are using a closed air circuit for an air cooled cooltube, sourcing and dumping air outside the room's airmass, you won't have to treat the cooltube air for scent. 



daddychrisg said:


> Hey Al, Check out this link....  The lightbulb of the future? video - CNET TV  ...........
> 
> Have you seen this technology before?


I haven't- that's new. Thanks for that.  They didn't name the light nor the manufacturer, only said that it was a plasma light of some kind. Would like to know more. 

I'd like to know what sort of 400W lamp they were comparing it to. Looked like a mercury vapour lamp, which isn't a really good comparison. Would like to know what the plasma lamp looks like next to a MH. I'd also like to know more about the spectral output of the plasma lamp. It does look promising, though.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 24, 2008)

Yeah, I think I am going to do some research also....The thing that caught my attention is the spectral out put of the plasma..In theory, it should be very close to the sun, at least that is how I understand it...Let me know if you find some good info on the topic...


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 24, 2008)

I found this, with a spectral graph, on the LIFI 4000 (intended for projectors):

*http://www.lifi.com/pdfs/ProductBulletinLIFI.pdf

*It has a listed CCT of 8500K, 4000 initial lumens, and a CRI of 88.

And this on the LIFI 4000P, which looks even more promising:

*http://www.lifi.com/pdfs/ProductBulletinLIFI4000P.pdf

*Up to 4500 lumens @ 6400K, 95 CRI.

I have to say, the spectral output looks good, at least for vegging. These are going to be waaay to expensive, though, with all their fancy digital controls. We'll have to wait for cheaper industrial versions.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 24, 2008)

Hey Mac, I was about to post the same links! Interesting stuff hu? I luv new technology, and this one seems very applicable in todays market of ever growing energy conscious individuals.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 24, 2008)

*Fresh release...

* LUXIM Corp. is pleased to announce the introduction of its new LIFI&#8482; Entertainment solid state high intensity light source product line. The new module outputs up to 12,000 lumens from a small emitter in a forward intensity pattern with a color rendering index (CRI) of 91 and a 20,000 hour lifetime. 
In applications like moving heads, scanners and follow spots, LIFI&#8482; Entertainment light sources enable 50% higher fixture efficiency than conventional lamps. As a result, designers of entertainment lighting can increase beam intensity and reduce optical system size. In addition, LIFI&#8482; Entertainment systems last seven times longer than those using conventional HID lamps and are safe to use in any application since they do not experience explosions or broken glass. 
LIFI&#8482; Entertainment light sources join other products in the LIFI&#8482; portfolio with their full spectrum output achieving CRI of 91. Lighting equipment designers can use the wide spectral range of LIFI sources to achieve excellent illumination quality and densely saturated filtered effects. 
Each LIFI&#8482; Entertainment light source is equipped with an individually addressable microcontroller that can provide energy saving dimming and strobe. This smart lighting feature is compatible with various network protocols and can feed back system status. 
Products will be on display at LUXIM&#8217;s exhibit at the Light & Building trade fair in Frankfurt Germany, April 6-11, 2008 and samples of LIFI&#8482; Entertainment are available now along with datasheet, application and design references at [email protected] or tel: +1-408-734-1096. 
About LUXIM Corporation
LUXIM is a pioneer and volume manufacturer of energy-efficient lighting solutions that offer reliable and extraordinarily compact technology for high-intensity applications. LUXIM&#8217;s innovative LIFI&#8482; technology blends advanced solid state electronics with full-spectrum plasma emitter technology in a tiny bulb to deliver unmatched color quality and other performance benefits. With twice the efficiency and five times the lifespan of conventional high-intensity light sources, LUXIM&#8217;s LIFI&#8482; enables diverse applications with &#8220;cleaner&#8221; and more cost-effective advantages. Headquartered in Sunnyvale, Calif. and backed by leading venture capital firms, the company maintains sales, support and manufacturing centers in the U.S., Europe and Asia. To learn more, please visit Luxim.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 24, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> The new module outputs up to 12,000 lumens


Thanks for chasing that up, dcg. 

The 12K lumen lamp is pretty small. We're looking for somewhere around 40-56K lumens, the approximate output neighbourhood of 400HPS.

I'll nose around their site and see what they got.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> Yeah, I think I am going to do some research also....The thing that caught my attention is the spectral out put of the plasma..In theory, it should be very close to the sun, at least that is how I understand it...Let me know if you find some good info on the topic...


Before you go becoming a devotee of full spectrum lamps, think about this; cannabis is responsive to light of differing bands of colour in different phases of growth. It is most reactive to a bluish spectrum in veg, but a red-orange spectrum in flower. The reason for this is that the angle of the sun is high in the sky in spring and summer, passing through a comparatively short path through the atmosphere compared to autumn. The short path filters less blue than the long path late in the season. Autumn sunlight is decidedly more yellow-red in the latitudes indigenous to cannabis. The red-yellow light light colour prominence is a co-trigger for flowering along with the shorter photoperiod (day length).

While you can only do this in a grow room, you'll find the plant produces a slightly different habit with the differing light colours, independent of the photoperiod. If you veg with HPS, plants will be somewhat elongated compared to the more bluish MH, which will produce shorter internodal lengths and denser vegetative growth. Buds flowered under MH tend to be somewhat more leafy than those raised under HPS. Vegging with MH and flowering with HPS are the normal usages as these colours best complement the phase of growth. 

However, cannabis does not need the _*full*_ spectrum at any single time in growth. If a lamp produces light that can't be used, it's wasted. Moreover, if a lamp produces a broad spectral output, its overall intensity will be lower for a given power input. 

This more-is-less is the case with Ceramic Metal Halide lamps, which produce a very broad spectrum but only 40K lumens for a 400, compared to 56K lumens for the ordinary 400HPS. CMH is being trialled by a number of growers at the moment, but it's been around since 1994. CMH is supposed to make a lot less heat output than HPS or MH and runs on HPS control gear. However, remember that it's luminous intensity which drives photosynthesis, not light colour, so at the end of the day, it's only 102 lumens/watt, wasting light in bands not used by the plant. Dramatically reducing thermal load on the grow op can be done with cooltubes- a 'tubed 400 HPS will be cooler than a naked 400CMH, so lower heat output lighting, while nice, isn't all that important. 

HPS and MH produce greater luminous intensity because they don't attempt to generate light across a full spectrum, rather concentrating the output in certain frequency bands- coincidentally, those which cannabis likes best at particular stages of growth.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 25, 2008)

* The 12K lumen lamp is pretty small.

*_Yeah, I did not quite understand what is going on with the 12k lamp..I thought the 250wlamp put out around 60k, that would be 20k more then what looked like to me, a MH lamp..

I have been messing around with my veg plants lately, and using a 430w HPS, letting them stretch out abit more then the MH would produce, "to about 18", then trimming the lower branches up to about 6-8". This gives me much better air flow in the bloom room, and the finished height of the plant is about 28", leaving about a 20" layer of nugs. This seems to work out very well with 600w HPS lamps in air cooled hoods that are positioned about 6" away from the canopy..Any how, I am starting to understand the uses and out comes of different spectrum's of light during different phases of growth, and everything you mentioned on your last post played right into my personal beliefs...So either we are both off the mark, or on the ball. What ever the fuck that means...LOL
_


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, I'm not really working on belief as much as independently verifiable data. 

If the Luxim 250W produces a useful spectrum and 60K lumens, I'm in. 

I looked in their positions available and found they are looking for a Senior RF (Radio Frequency) Electronics Design Engineer. I'd qualify for the position (I'm a BSEE) but have no desire to live in Sunnyvale... or California in general- but the position description lets slip a little about the products Luxim will have in the future. 

They need RF amplifier designers, looking to make a 400W amplifier- apparently the Luxim lamp is excited by RF energy. They don't have any lights listed in their presently available products yet which would suit our purposes. 

I'll also hazard a guess that a 400W Luxim light, if it must be driven with a 400W RF power amplifier, is going to be FUCKING expensive.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

One more note on full spectrum lighting... If you use a particular area for only flowering or vegging, it need not have a full spectrum lamp. 

The only reason I can think of for using a broad spectrum lamp is if one uses the same area for veg followed by flowering. You'd just use the same lamp for everything. 

However, that convenience is a compromise. A broad spectrum lamp of a given wattage which can do both veg and flower won't do either as well as lamps of equal wattage specifically suited for the phases with narrower but more intense spectral outputs.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 25, 2008)

Al, you dont agree with UVB increasing taste? more crystals????


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> Al, you dont agree with UVB increasing taste? more crystals????


No, I've never found anything credible to support the more UV = more resin/THC theory. I've heard lots of ppl claim that THC/resin are defences against UV, but I think that's a hell of a stretch. If a plant is sticky, it might be more reasonably thought to have natural flypaper than is making the goo to protect against sunlight. 

Wives' tale, sorry.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, I've never found anything credible to support the more UV = more resin/THC theory.
> 
> Wives' tale, sorry.



i watched something good from a guy named marijuana man explaining how uv's allegedly increase trichs. 

let me do a little gophering.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

ahhhhh, ok here it is 

YouTube - THC, UVB and Me

really good info whether you believe it or not. just thought i would share with your guys


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

Yes, I've seen that character before. He gives no evidence whatsoever to support his claim that UV helps a plant make more resin or THC... he just says it like it's some sort of well-known fact. Just because some joker puts his claim in a vid on YouTube doesn't make it true!


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

opps i posted twice.


peace and pot


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yes, I've seen that character before. He gives no evidence whatsoever to support his claim that UV helps a plant make more resin or THC... he just says it like it's some sort of well-known fact. Just because some joker puts his claim in a vid on YouTube doesn't make it true!


could just been propaganda, idk....

i wonder if people have done actually tests and studies on this. 

al, maybe you should put a reptile light over one of your crops and see if there is a noticeable difference  

i would myself, but im really broke........ lol 

peace out


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> could just been propaganda, idk....


I'm not so sure it's propaganda as much as some clown just spewing off things he's heard or read elsewhere, with no supporting research or evidence. 



> i wonder if people have done actually tests and studies on this.


Proper scholarly research and writing about growing cannabis is very hard to come by as most governments actively prohibit it. 



> al, maybe you should put a reptile light over one of your crops and see if there is a noticeable difference
> 
> i would myself, but im really broke........ lol


I would myself, but I think it's a very improbable hypothesis and not really worth testing.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 25, 2008)

I've tried to look into this before. Seems like a lot of the same stuff seen in the youtube vid is from here:

MARIJUANA OPTICS: An elaboration on the process that makes THC

The same resource can be found here:

http://www.onlinepot.org/medical/opticsandthc9M.pdf

and quoted all over the place.

It seems like the papers to locate are Pate 1983 / 1994 and then Lyndon et al 1987. 

Citations for those inclined to do so:

Pate D. W. 1994 Chemical ecology of _Cannabis_. _Journal of the International Hemp Association_ 1: 29, 32-37

Lydon J. A. H. Teramura C. B. Coffman 1987 UV-B radiation effects on photosynthesis, growth and cannabinoid production of two _Cannabis sativa_ chemotypes. _Photochemistry and Photobiology_ 46: 201-206

Blackwell has the Lydon article's abstract publicly available:



> The effects of UV-B radiation on photosynthesis, growth and cannabinoid production of two greenhouse-grown _C. sativa_ chemotypes (drug and fiber) were assessed. Terminal meristems of vegetative and reproductive tissues were irradiated for 40 days at a daily dose of 0, 6.7 or 13.4 kJ m-2 biologically effective UV-B radiation. Infrared gas analysis was used to measure the physiological response of mature leaves, whereas gas-liquid chromatography was used to determine the concentration of cannabinoids in leaf and floral tissue.
> There were no significant physiological or morphological differences among UV-B treatments in either drug- or fiber-type plants. *The concentration of &#916;9-tetrahydrocannabinol (&#916;9-THC), but not of other cannabinoids, in both leaf and floral tissues increased with UV-B dose in drug-type plants. * None of the cannabinoids in fiber-type plants were affected by UV-B radiation.
> The increased levels of &#916;9-THC in leaves after irradiation may account for the physiological and morphological tolerance to UV-B radiation in the drug-type plants. However, fiber plants showed no comparable change in the level of cannabidiol (a cannabinoid with UV-B absorptive characteristics similar to &#916;9 THC)*. Thus the contribution of cannabinoids as selective UV-B filters in C. sativa is equivocal. *


 [emphasis added]

So, a strong maybe is what I take from this; but nothing dramatic enough to make me want to run out and festoon my flowering chamber with reptile lights.

Stumbling around I found this, which helps to clear up some of the stuff Marijuana Man was mumbling about in his vid:

A chemotaxonomic analysis of cannabinoid variation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae) -- Hillig and Mahlberg 91 (6): 966 -- American Journal of Botany

From the intro, with interesting bits highlighted:



> Cannabinoids are terpenophenolic compounds unique to _Cannabis_. They are produced by glandular trichomes that occur on most aerial surfaces of the plant (Dayanandan and Kaufman, 1976  ; Turner et al., 1978  ). Approximately 61 cannabinoids are known to exist, although some of these are breakdown products or artifacts (Schultes and Hofmann, 1980  ; Turner et al., 1980  ). *The cannabinoids discussed in this paper are biosynthesized in an acidic (carboxylated) form and are decarboxylated upon heating and drying of harvested plant material (Doorenbos et al., 1971  ). They are here referred to in their decarboxylated form. Cannabigerol (CBG) is the direct precursor of cannabichromene (CBC), cannabidiol (CBD), and
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the whole UVB and D-9-THC production questions is complicated by issues of strain--and without citing a pile of other research, it should be noted that there is not consensus on which cannabinoids are responsible for producing different kinds of highs. UVB might be really important for equatorial sativas, for instance, but not so much for indicas. Also, it may be that in the abscence of normal outdoor UVB input, some other mechanism kicks in. After all, I've long associated expertly grown indoor dope with the highest levels of quality as I think many others do and that would not be the case if indoor growing under lights left so much to be desired in comparison to outdoor crops in terms of the production of psychoactive compounds. 

This is getting kinda far afield from the subject of the thread.....probably best to make a discussion in advance growing techniques if people really want to hash out the UVB thing again.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 25, 2008)

AL, I have searched out the least expensive H2o2 in my area...Where could it be? Beauty Supply! they have 30% H2o2 for around $2.50 a quart. The only thing that I don't know is if they put any type of stabilizers or additives. Have any experience with this option?
If I was going to purchase food grade H2o2 over the net to be delivered to me, it would cost me almost twice what it would cost me down at the local hydro shop..Man on a lighter note, the first time I added 35% H2O2 to my res,and control unit, it about over flowed with bubbles....I guess there was alittle growth in there! Anyhow be well..DCG


----------



## Enigma (Mar 25, 2008)

Do research on UV light and plants in general. That should bring up some much needed R&D!

My bet is that UV will kill em!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

While I'm thinking of it, beware the claim that HPS 'doesn't have any UV.' This is something I researched while looking at cooltubes. 

HPS absolutely does emit UV, all the way to the UVC region at 253nm, and in amounts proportional to sunlight. Borosilicate (pyrex) glass used in cooltubes is available in a high UV transmissibility optical type where about 15% of UVC is lost, but UVA & B are passed at about 90%. However, even the bakeware grade passes UV pretty well, up to the high end of UVC, where there's about a 30% rolloff in transmission. 

UVC germicidal lamps use quartz envelopes as it has almost no attenuation of UVC, but quartz envelopes are VERY exxy. I recently paid $90 for a 14" quartz UVC lamp tube for one of my ozonators.

If one were to use a proper UV lamp in testing the UV/THC theory, it should be in a closed circuit cooltube so the ozone it produces is blown out of the room. Too much O3 will burn plants and if the UV lamp has to run all the time for such an investigation, O3 burn is certain if not ducted out.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> I've tried to look into this before.


Thanks for looking all that up, great stuff. 

Looks like the result of that particular investigation is somewhere between inconclusive and 'myth busted.'


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 25, 2008)

No prob, just fixed it up a little more for future reference.

Yeah, I think the most that can be said is that it's a possible factor for some strains, but as that last long excerpt suggests all of the factors we are so familiar with (sex, maturity, strain, light period, temperature) probably matter a lot more. 

If you want to spend some money messing with it, more power to you, but efforts/money are probably better invested in, for instance, acquiring better genetics.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Yeah, I think the most that can be said is that it's a possible factor for some strains, but as that last long excerpt suggests all of the factors we are so familiar with (sex, maturity, strain, light period, temperature) probably matter a lot more.
> 
> If you want to spend some money messing with it, more power to you, but efforts/money are probably better invested in, for instance, acquiring better genetics.


Yep, agreed. 

I'll tell you, it's a significant enough challenge to just get a grow to maintain proper temp & RH. 

Too many growers, especially new ones, are looking for the next big whiz-bang instead of getting an op running properly and reliably. It's an awful lot like slapping $5000 worth of mags on a rusty econobox running on 3 cylinders and with no brakes. 

Fix the rust, brakes and the motor FIRST, *then* worry about the mags!


----------



## Kuji (Mar 25, 2008)

I apologize if this was answered somewhere in the thread, but how do you safely move the clones to the flowering room? 

Also, could clones confidently be removed from an un-sexed feminised-seed plant still in veg? 

As for lighting, does more wattage allow for larger yeilds becuase more surface area can be covered and more plants grown? or becuase the higher powered lights encourage larger bud growth and bigger yeilds?

Sorry for all the questions but when I finally begin my own garden I want to be as prepared as possible.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 25, 2008)

Kuji said:


> I apologize if this was answered somewhere in the thread, but how do you safely move the clones to the flowering room?


Um. With your hands. Don't drop them.



> Also, could clones confidently be removed from an un-sexed feminised-seed plant still in veg?


No. But somewhat more confidently than a un-sexed non-feminized-seed. 
'Feminized' seeds are not a guarantee. What you can do, if you have enough room, is create a small sexing chamber. You would take clones from all your plants and start vegging them as if they were sexed. You take one of the clones from each prospective mother and place it in your sexing chamber on 12/12. Soon enough you'll get a couple tiny, sad buds on each clone that will be enough to sex the donor plant. Identify the mothers and destroy the fathers and their offspring (or remove to a sufficiently distant location if you want to grow them out for pollen.) Kill the sad plants in the sexing chamber, they're not worth the work of carrying through flowering or reverting to veg.



> As for lighting, does more wattage allow for larger yeilds becuase more surface area can be covered and more plants grown? or becuase the higher powered lights encourage larger bud growth and bigger yeilds?


Yes.

(These are not mutually exclusive effects)


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 25, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Um. With your hands. Don't drop them.
> 
> you do have them in separate pots rite? like mac said just be gentle and you can move from india to china..
> 
> ...


 
ahh the lumens are what make the difference not the coverage it covers, a 400 watt light covers a 4x4 area no problem...but only gets 25 watts per sq/ft, and this would yeild a crop however a 1000 watt in the same 4x4 area gets 62.5 watts and would yeild considerably more. yes more watts means more coverage but that is not what brings yield it is the actual luminecense that does it for you 



Kuji said:


> I apologize if this was answered somewhere in the thread, but how do you safely move the clones to the flowering room?
> 
> Also, could clones confidently be removed from an un-sexed feminised-seed plant still in veg?
> 
> ...


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 25, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> ahh the lumens are what make the difference not the coverage it covers,... yes more watts means more coverage but that is not what brings yield it is the actual luminecense that does it for you


As I said, the two are not mutually exclusive. That should be obvious if you think about it. Total area farmed and yield per sq. ft are both factors. 

A 1000 watt light illuminating an area over twice the size of that a 400 watt light, at the same intensity, will produce more yield because--ta da--more area is being farmed. 1 + 1 = 2 . 

At the same time, a 600 watt light used to illuminate the same area as a 400 watt light will result in a higher yield per sq. ft. due to increased light intensity.


----------



## Kuji (Mar 25, 2008)

Do the plants stay in the trays when they're moved or is the rock wool cubed removed from one tray and placed in another? If so, how are the roots handled? 

If I had a similar room I was thinking of using a drip irrigation for the clone room and was wondering how the rock wool cubes could be successfully transfered to an ebb and flow system without getting damaged.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 25, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> As I said, the two are not mutually exclusive. That should be obvious if you think about it. Total area farmed and yield per sq. ft are both factors.
> 
> A 1000 watt light illuminating an area over twice the size of that a 400 watt light, at the same intensity, will produce more yield because--ta da--more area is being farmed. 1 + 1 = 2 .
> 
> At the same time, a 600 watt light used to illuminate the same area as a 400 watt light will result in a higher yield per sq. ft. due to increased light intensity.


to simplify say a 400 watt covers 4 sq/ft, and a 1000 wat covers 10 sq/ft. your getting 100 watts per sq/ft in both situations rite? now do your grow and at the end of the grow calculate what you yeilded per sq/ft not, your total yeild. you will yeild much more from the 1000 watt light *PER SQ/FT *than the 400.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 25, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Do the plants stay in the trays when they're moved or is the rock wool cubed removed from one tray and placed in another? If so, how are the roots handled?
> 
> If I had a similar room I was thinking of using a drip irrigation for the clone room and was wondering how the rock wool cubes could be successfully transfered to an ebb and flow system without getting damaged.


Al uses 8" pots filled with flytocel and rockwool mix so they are easy to maneuver, if you are just using the cubes then just make sure your hands are clean, and yes you do move from 1 tray to the other jus handle the roots with your CLEAN hands and gently, to the next tray or wherever they need to go. you can handle roots tho dont be scared just be careful and c lean.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

yeah, what you guys said.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> Al uses 8" pots filled with flytocel and rockwool mix so they are easy to maneuver, if you are just using the cubes then just make sure your hands are clean, and yes you do move from 1 tray to the other jus handle the roots with your CLEAN hands and gently, to the next tray or wherever they need to go. you can handle roots tho dont be scared just be careful and c lean.


To be clear, I have about 25-50mm of floc tightly packed in the bottom of each pot. The remainder (about 80% of the volume) is filled with Fytocell.

Mac's comment "Um. With your hands. Don't drop them." made me bust a gut. 

You only need be concerned with not breaking off roots. Rooted clones come out of my clonebox with a decent number of taproots showing out of the bottoms of the cubes, but never are the roots allowed to get more than a couple mm long before they are transplanted to pots of media.

Once in pots, the plants can be moved around without any fear of hurting anything.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 25, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> to simplify say a 400 watt covers 4 sq/ft, and a 1000 wat covers 10 sq/ft. your getting 100 watts per sq/ft in both situations rite? now do your grow and at the end of the grow calculate what you yeilded per sq/ft not, your total yeild. you will yeild much more from the 1000 watt light *PER SQ/FT *than the 400.


Yes. So? The two still aren't mutually exclusive. That was my point. The question was originally posed as if they were. A 1000 watt light would both allow more area to be farmed, and would light that area at a greater intensity. Which I think is the same thing you're saying.
The 1000 watt can cover more square feet _ and_ delivers more yield per square foot (presuming that the distance the 1000 watt light is positioned over the plants in order to cover the larger area still allows its light to arrive at the leaves with a greater intensity than that from the smaller light which might be positioned closer.)


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 25, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Yes. So? The two still aren't mutually exclusive. That was my point. The question was originally posed as if they were. A 1000 watt light would both allow more area to be farmed, and would light that area at a greater intensity. Which I think is the same thing you're saying.
> The 1000 watt can cover more square feet _and_ delivers more yield per square foot (presuming that the distance the 1000 watt light is positioned over the plants in order to cover the larger area still allows its light to arrive at the leaves with a greater intensity than that from the smaller light which might be positioned closer.)


.......you win! good explanation for the guy...
people come here knowing nothing sometimes k! and then there are the people here who are very knowledgable. the KNOWLEDGABLE people are here to EDUCATE the newcomers! you can argue that is untrue but i know what i use FORUMS for and that is to learn when not fully educated on somethin you mite be interested in. 
now that being said i think the HELPFUL part of all that gets put aside sometimes in here(riu) and ego takes over, FINE thats cool but at the end of the day CAN WE HELP THE PEOPLE WHO DONT FUCKING KNOW. you said what you said but i answered his question, which you should read again.

SORRY AL but im tired of the makin fun before answering or not answering with any kind of info that matters or is relevent. NEWBS look here for help and its slow to come sometimes.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 25, 2008)

What's your problem, cmak? I did answer his actual question. You decided to complicate things by throwing in a vague 'correction' regarding the importance of intensity.

OK, fine. But it's factually wrong to suggest that bigger lights allow larger yields simply because they can provide more efficient or intense lighting per sq. ft. -- they also allow larger yields because they create larger production areas. So far as intensity is concerned, you can in fact use multiple smaller lights with overlapping footprints to create more intense light per sq ft (and so higher yields, in that sense) than you can with a single larger light, as you can get multiple smaller lights closer to the canopy without burning. Efficiency of a single light source in the abstract is not the same thing as yield of a lighting system in the context of a grow. If you really want to get into it. 

So now you're complaining that I had the gall to clarify my statement after you added something that was potentially confusing and incomplete; and for extra irony you're exemplifying the very behavior you're whining about.

Kudos, that's very acrobatic if not very perceptive. 

OK, I'm done. I'm here to ask questions and help answer them, not pick fights with emo kids.


----------



## Azgrow (Mar 25, 2008)

just wanna toss the ol 2 censt here...i believe whats trying to be said is that the 1k lights have a deeper canopy penitration..meaning plants grown gigger an more bushy need less training an trimmin cause of the lights penitration...but using multiple smaller lights can get you a better overall top canopy ffot print...good for scrog grows or any grow where light at the tops is more important then full penitration...just my 2cents...peace az


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 25, 2008)

i added a simple explanation that would answer more than the single ? i didnt disregard what you said!!!! i think you actually confused up the statements with your additions cuz i still dont know wtf your talkin about......
how exactly do i exemplify what im TALKING about, i to was a noob on many forums and in many situations and got shit on for not knowing, so i want the noobs to get help thats bad? well my bad then! i didnt argue your point ever!! you can actually put the quote up to prove me wrong if you want but he was under the impression that a bigger light means more plants...its not that simple. i know that you prob do to but, YOU didnt explain it, sorry you dont like my explanation but at least i tried, no one else did(is that the NO HELP in forums i was talkin about) go ahead argue all day and throw up half ass answer posts to get your post count up. i want to learn and help, not get shit on by people with out the perspective to see others views.

as for VAGUE answering "yes" to his question seems a little VAGUE. i dont think you had anything to say til i said something!!!

theres a 100 ways to argue anyones point but its not a simple answer


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 26, 2008)

Look, I'm not trying to argue with you, but you still don't seem to understand. 

It _ is _ as much the increased area per light as the increased intensity that gives a 1000 watt light value. 1000 watt lights are very efficient in terms of converting electricity into lumens, which is the lumen rating of the bulb. On paper, they are very intense in lumens. 

However, a 1000 watt fixture cannot be placed as close to the plants as, say, a 400W or 600W--although these may not be as efficient, both absolutely, and because you'd have to run two to cover the same area at an equal or greater intensity. Thus, if you're producing more from a 1000W grow it may be simply because you have more plants--they lumens they are being delivered may be less than that of a couple plants close under a 400W. Plain and simple. 

Don't believe me? According to J. Cervantes in _Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Growers Bible_ (2006), 1000W HPS is 140 Lumens per Watt, and at one foot away is 140K lumens but at 3 feet away is 15.5K lumens. Meanwhile a 600W HPS is 150 LPW, at one foot away it delivers 90K lumens and at 2 feet away 22,500 lumens. 



> Even though 400W lamps produce fewer lumens per watt than a 1000 watt bulb, when properly set up they actually deliver more usable light toplants. The 600W bulb has the highest LPW and can be placed closer to the canopy of the garden than 1000W or 1100W bulbs. When the 600W bulb is closer to plants, they receive more light.
> A 1000W HID emits a lot of light. It also radiates a lot of heat. The bulb must be further from the plants to avoid burning them. In many cases it is more effective to use smaller wattage bulbs. For example, two 400W bulbs emit light from two points. The disadvantage is that two 400W systems cost more than one 1000W system.


So unless you're going to tell me that Cervantes is wrong and is misleading the noobs too, I'm going to keep saying what I'm saying and will keep insisting that the distinction is significant even if you don't quite get it (which I can't quite tell if you do or don't.) 

Seriously, I'm done with this now. This kind of squabbling doesn't belong in a thread this awesome.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 26, 2008)

with a cool tube it can touch the fucking plant k...................
if you were done youd stop arguing your point, i did 2 posts ago. THERE IS MULTIPLE WAYS TO ARGUE YOUR POINT you win. i lose i have jorge book k, the 2002 edition and the 2007 you want a copy? a 1000 covers more area because that MORE INTENSE light can be lifted and stil reach farther with the same intensity as a samller light i know that. you didnt explain that, well you did it just took you 5 posts to do it, good job post count goin up, and up and up............

should put that post up first to answer the question. but it does relegate what i said thanx
REP FOR ME LOL


back to *HYDROPONICS PLEASE*


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 26, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> with a cool tube it can touch the fucking plant k...................


Who said anything about cool tubes? The question remains, 'why is a 1000W more productive?' Not, 'why is a 1000W more productive if it's in a cool tube.' That effectively makes it a different light. 




> if you were done youd stop arguing your point, i did 2 posts ago.


What, pray tell, are you doing now? Making conversation?




> THERE IS MULTIPLE WAYS TO ARGUE YOUR POINT...


but facts are facts.



> i lose i have jorge book k, the 2002 edition and the 2007 you want a copy?


Then re-read the sections of Chapter 9 subtitled "The Inverse Square Law" and "Lamp Spacing," pages 177 - 181 in my 2006 edition. 

Pay particular attention to the last section in "Light Spacing" that begins "The goal is to give plants 10,000 lumens..." and ends "400w lamps...may be more efficient than higher wattage....it also means that several different point sources sustain more even, intense light distribution." That would be the point at which Cervantes lays out what I was saying above.

The person asked if a 1000W yields more because it delivers more intense light, or because it can grow more plants. The answer is both, and that's the answer I gave, but if you have to choose one (as you seem to think we do otherwise it is 'too confusing' or somehow not answering the question) it is in fact the latter--the increased area and so number or size of plants--as other setups can deliver both more lumens per watt and more lumens per square foot.

So, you were in fact wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, or argumentation. It's a fact. And then you yelled at me for misleading the newbie by posting wrong things--when it was you, in actuality, who was doing so. And then failed to perceive the irony. And are now throwing a temper tantrum. 

Just stop. 



> back to *HYDROPONICS PLEASE*


Yes, please.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 26, 2008)

AL, i have noticed some rust spots on some of my large fan leaves. Do you have any ideas what could be causing them? I check the pH every morning and it is at 6.5 and i lower it to 5.8 the ppm is at 1150 for vegging week 2.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> AL, i have noticed some rust spots on some of my large fan leaves. Do you have any ideas what could be causing them? I check the pH every morning and it is at 6.5 and i lower it to 5.8 the ppm is at 1150 for vegging week 2.


Nothing occurs to me offhand, but then I don't know what your temps & RH have been, what lights you're using, what media, whether you have an O3 gen.. etc etc etc

Your best bet for queries like this is to start a thread in Sick Plants or similar subforum, with pics and a complete description of the op and conditions. There's people a lot better at problem diagnoses than I. All I'll do is go back through the knowns and see what's out of order.


----------



## Kuji (Mar 26, 2008)

Din't mean to start an argument, but thanks for answering my questions. I still have some things to figure out with lighting, especially what to use for clones and new vegging plants but I understand(or at least think I do) the wattage to yield concept. 

It seems the roots are more durable then I thought. The sight of the exposed root system just seems so...exposed, like if anything touches them its gonna get sucked into the biological network of the plant and kill the whole thing from within. 

I found an excellent video on youtube(I grow Chronic) that answers alot of my questions. However, this dude vegetates his clones for a whole two months and then puts them in the flowering room. Al, you say take clones directly from the clone box and put them into flowering, how long are they in the clone box for until they're good to flower? Also, for a new grower would you recommend letting clones veg a little and grow more strength before going into flowering? 

Thanks.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 26, 2008)

LOL damb this room is gettin bitchy! As far as lights are concern, have you guys looked into running a series of CFL's, maybe 80 or so 27watters, to achieve the desired light source...? Maybe even put them in cool tubes?Hu?


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 26, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> LOL damb this room is gettin bitchy! As far as lights are concern, have you guys looked into running a series of CFL's, maybe 80 or so 27watters, to achieve the desired light source...? Maybe even put them in cool tubes?Hu?


What would be the point in putting CFL's in a cool tube?? They do not put out that much heat anyway.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Din't mean to start an argument, but thanks for answering my questions. I still have some things to figure out with lighting, especially what to use for clones and new vegging plants but I understand(or at least think I do) the wattage to yield concept.


Easy, clones can live under fluoros, mums can get a small HPS or MH dependent on your style of growing. 



> It seems the roots are more durable then I thought. The sight of the exposed root system just seems so...exposed, like if anything touches them its gonna get sucked into the biological network of the plant and kill the whole thing from within.


Cannabis is not a particularly fragile plant. It's really rather hard to kill it. You really have to do something fairly silly to kill a cannabis plant, but new growers DO manage it sometimes.  

Now, if you want a finicky plant, try raising some Australian natives, which keel over dead when there's a box of ferts with any phosphorus in it within the same time zone... 



> I found an excellent video on youtube(I grow Chronic) that answers alot of my questions. However, this dude vegetates his clones for a whole two months and then puts them in the flowering room.


There's a man with some time on his hands! 



> Al, you say take clones directly from the clone box and put them into flowering, how long are they in the clone box for until they're good to flower?


Clones send out first taproots 6-7 days after cuttings, roots are well developed enough by day 10-14 for them to leave the clonebox and go into flower. 



> Also, for a new grower would you recommend letting clones veg a little and grow more strength before going into flowering?


Nope. They'll do fine for you or me with zero veg time. If you veg them, they will get too tall. If your op is maintaining the right temps & RH etc., you'll get what I get.



daddychrisg said:


> LOL damb this room is gettin bitchy! As far as lights are concern, have you guys looked into running a series of CFL's, maybe 80 or so 27watters, to achieve the desired light source...? Maybe even put them in cool tubes?Hu?


dcg, I KNOW you have lost your mind now... or simply are having a bit of fun at the noobs' expense. 

CFLs have no place in a cannabis grow op other than over clones or perhaps rasing mums. A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 26, 2008)

*A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.
*A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.
*A cooltube on a CFL is like a condom on a limp dick.


LMAOLMAOLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**What would be the point in putting CFL's in a cool tube?? They do not put out that much heat anyway.
*_HMMM....._


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> According to J. Cervantes in _Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Growers Bible_ (2006), 1000W HPS is 140 Lumens per Watt, and at one foot away is 140K lumens but at 3 feet away is 15.5K lumens. Meanwhile a 600W HPS is 150 LPW, at one foot away it delivers 90K lumens and at 2 feet away 22,500 lumens.


JC is quite right, but cooltubes were not as common when he was writing that bit as they are now. JC also tends to take his old version and polish it up before releasing a new edition rather than write entirely new stuff for each edition. No doubt, I would do the same but I think I'd be a bit more enthusiastic about removing old data. JC is pretty thorough for the most part, though- more so than Ed Rosenthal on his own, anyway. 

My 'tubed 1000s are about 300-350mm (~12-14" or so) clear of my growing tips. One good guess put the luminous output of a 'tubed 1000 at about 85K lumens/sf @ 12".

Now, I love cannabis discussion forums because everyone can have an equal voice. However, might I _*please*_ discourage folks from being disrespectful to one another? If you have a difference of opinion, by all means, discuss and support your case, but please don't go _ad hominem_ on folks. Critique the data, not the person. 

This thread is at 100 pages and nearly 1000 posts, 56,000 reads so far at close to 1000 per week! It does not remain lively and interesting because ppl have spent a lot of time bitching at one another.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 26, 2008)

damn Al is a peer mediator too?

damn that man can do it all!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> damn Al is a peer mediator too?


I once was a moderator/mentor on Overgrow- for about 5 years, in fact, up 'til 2005. I don't want that task anymore, thanks.

This is post #1000. Thanks to everyone who has contributed positively so far and to all the readers who keep referring to this thread.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 26, 2008)

I hear ya AL, I second your wise statement...."Critique the data, not the person." enough said....this is the best thread on this site for many reasons.....


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 26, 2008)

AL, i am waiting on my mothers to get a little bigger before i start taking clones off of them. I am getting everything ready though. I got 14 pot that were made for my 2x2 flood and drain table. I have some 1" rock wool cubes to start my clones in and some 3" cubes to transfer the clones in before it put them into the pots. My question is should i veg a little longer once the clones show root through the 1" cubes and i put them in the 3" ? Should i wait until the roots show through the 3" cubes before putting them in the pot in my table?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> AL, i am waiting on my mothers to get a little bigger before i start taking clones off of them.


Patience pays. 



> My question is Should i veg a little longer once the clones show root through the 1" cubes and i put them in the 3" ? should i wait until the roots show through the 3" cubes before putting them in the pot in my table?


Are you sure those are 1"/25mm cubes? Didn't know there were any 25mm cubes made, thought the smallest around was 40mm.

I don't think you really need to use an intermediate cube before planting out your cubes of rooted clones into pots of media. It sounds like it would add several days to the schedule, while the roots are biting into the larger cube, but I can't really see the benefit.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 26, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> JC also tends to take his old version and polish it up before releasing a new edition rather than write entirely new stuff for each edition. No doubt, I would do the same but I think I'd be a bit more enthusiastic about removing old data. JC is pretty thorough for the most part, though- more so than Ed Rosenthal on his own, anyway.


Yeah, I always feel a little silly citing J. Cervantes, E. Rosenthal, or M. Frank as if they were totally authoritative, but in their own way they are the common references for our subculture here. Fewer people own the books by G. Green, T. Flowers or J. Mowta so while they are a little better on that account and generally more rigorous I don't usually cite them or give out references to them. From time to time I do cite Clarke or for more general questions, Capon. I would agree that Cervantes' stuff is often poorly edited. However, it also seems to be the most widely owned guide. 




> My 'tubed 1000s are about 300-350mm (~12-14" or so) clear of my growing tips. One good guess put the luminous output of a 'tubed 1000 at about 85K lumens/sf @ 12".


You can run a tubed 1000W @ 12" above the canopy? How much air are you moving through it to accomplish that, out of curiousity?



> Critique the data, not the person.
> 
> This thread is at 100 pages and nearly 1000 posts, 56,000 reads so far at close to 1000 per week! It does not remain lively and interesting because ppl have spent a lot of time bitching at one another.



Amen to that. It's a hell of a thread! I wonder if there's a tool out there to dump VB threads into a PDF.....


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 26, 2008)

i love this thread.

informative, resourceful, get questions answered, discuss new technology and gadgets.

hell what more could we ask for!!!


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 26, 2008)

im not Al, but 200cfm is a plenty to cool a 1000watter


----------



## lush1 (Mar 26, 2008)

Al, what do you reckon to these lights instead of standard cooltubes:

http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=UCX108

The situation would be to cool 2x600w lights in a small room.

The theory being that they have an 8" flange which could then be used in conjunction with an 8" fan to avoid having to use reducers etc. 

They are also enormous (28"x24"). I'm thinking however that their size may be a disadvantage in that it would disrupt airflow considerably. This could be a problem if your only extraction for the room was sucking out through the lights. Am thinking that maybe any advantage gained by not having to use reducers would be countered by the fact that air has to suck through two of these beast-like hoods.

What do you think would be better, 

A) daisysychain two of the above together,
B) daisychain two cooltubes with homemade reflectors (as you have done), 
C) Use two supernovas with a central spigot (see below):








Cheers.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

lush, I saw your query over on Grass City and have replied there. Copying here for the convenience of RIU readers:



> lush1 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you think would be better,
> ...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Yeah, I always feel a little silly citing J. Cervantes, E. Rosenthal, or M. Frank as if they were totally authoritative, but in their own way they are the common references for our subculture here.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I would agree that Cervantes' stuff is often poorly edited. However, it also seems to be the most widely owned guide.


Of course, the cited writers are well known- and pretty much the best we had for a number of years. Most if not all of that group however, started writing about cannabis growing years before there was public access to the 'net. In those days, you had to be an out-n-proud cannabis activist to be a grow book author. You'd really be pushing your luck if you were not anonymous and also ran a grow op. I doubt all the cited authors were active, continuous, hands-on growers, though some of them surely are, like Ed, at very least post Prop 215.

In the age of the 'net, with some _reasonable_ chance at anonymity, it's easer for more writers to participate without putting their necks on the line. The law of averages says there will be more good (and more bad) writers/editors and probably more active growers writing about cannabis. That anonymity has its downside, of course. I can change my username and lose my old reputation if I really balls it up. Jorge and Ed are stuck being Jorge & Ed. 



> You can run a tubed 1000W @ 12" above the canopy? How much air are you moving through it to accomplish that, out of curiousity?


Yep, all OK at 12". I'm using an Allvent A60 150mm axial to drive the cooltubes. The A60 is rated 192CFM.



LoudBlunts said:


> i love this thread.
> 
> informative, resourceful, get questions answered, discuss new technology and gadgets.
> 
> hell what more could we ask for!!!


I don't know, but at one point in this thread, some guy DID offer to get his sister to give me a blowjob. That sounded like a pretty good addition.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 26, 2008)

lol!!!! blowjobs and green gardens.... ha!

and al...you're going to get on my case, but ummm....i think imma get the cool star plus.

them AAWs DO look fucking sweet tho...how much those run?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> lol!!!! blowjobs and green gardens.... ha!
> 
> and al...you're going to get on my case, but ummm....i think imma get the cool star plus.


If you can't manage marking the centre of a sheet of aluminium, rolling it up, partly unrolling and bending a 90 along the centreline and drilling 2 holes in it to fit it to a cooltube- then you are excused. Otherwise, you're just a stoned slacker with more money than initiative. 



> them AAWs DO look fucking sweet tho...how much those run?


About $AUD220. Too expensive to just buy with the intent of throwing away the lamp mount/socket.


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 26, 2008)

*i think imma get the cool star plus.

*_I have owned the cool star plus before...I was not a big fan of the dimpled aluminum. There were more hot spots then the _pebble-finish of some other brands..


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 26, 2008)

i thought the csp were new???


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 26, 2008)

I bought mine "NW US" last summer...


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 26, 2008)

mmm...i've never heard of it (the hotspot problem)

are we talking about the same one?

anywho thanks for the info!!!


----------



## daddychrisg (Mar 26, 2008)

Hey Al, I have been discussing an issue with a buddy of mine, and I thought you might give me some insight to this "issue"...Do you think running an exhaust fan the full 12 hours of "lights on" causes any type of co2 deficiencies? The thought is that with constant low pressure in the room "besides the time the intake fan kicks on" which is almost twice as much CFM as the intake, causes stagnet air some how...
*
mmm...i've never heard of it (the hotspot problem)

are we talking about the same one?

anywho thanks for the info!!!* 

_Hey blunts, yeah I double checked to make sure we are on the same page, and yes for me, the cool star plus was abit of a let down due to some hot spots. I placed the problem on the "dimple" design, and taking to more of the pebble finish. The cool star works well on a light mover though..I like the idea of a straight tube to create less resistance to air flow, but I will stick with the cool sun for now.. Cleaning is much easier also..._


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 26, 2008)

Hey AL here is my set up. The only thing i left to do is set up the CO2 system in my flowering room. The pics with the plants in the small Homebox is my vegging room. I am vegging my mothers and hopefully they will be large enough to start taking clones from by the end of April. I will probably just flower some of smaller plants on the left and keep the larger one's on the right for mothers. Do you have any advice for my set up when i start flowering the clones ?


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 26, 2008)

AL,

Did you ever mention how much more you were yielding by installing the cool-tubes?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> _I have owned the cool star plus before...I was not a big fan of the dimpled aluminum. There were more hot spots then the _pebble-finish of some other brands..


 The AAWs use a dimple finish, squillions of perhaps 1mm dia dimples, a round headed punch of some sort used to make the dimples. No hotspots. 

For a reflection to focus on a point and cause a hotspot, the reflector would have to be of a size large enough to collect sufficient light energy to do some damage if focused on a single point and also be of a convex shape to facilitate focus. 

I would worry more about the 'pebble' finish I have seen in other reflectors, but in truth, I'm concerned about neither. This is something that would be weeded out in very basic performance tests in prototyping at the manufacturer. Few commercially made horticultural lighting products are all that slapdash anymore, but there's still some old designs being made that really should die (i.e. Euro hoods, china hats) because of inherent design flaws.



daddychrisg said:


> Hey Al, I have been discussing an issue with a buddy of mine, and I thought you might give me some insight to this "issue"...Do you think running an exhaust fan the full 12 hours of "lights on" causes any type of co2 deficiencies? The thought is that with constant low pressure in the room "besides the time the intake fan kicks on" which is almost twice as much CFM as the intake, causes stagnet air some how...


 In the early days of the automobile, pundits theorised that if one drove faster than forty-five miles per hour, driver and passengers would be suffocated as the air would be sucked out of the lungs. 

Same nutty theory. 

Unless your exhaust blower is an Ingersoll-Rand screw-type air compressor capable of 6000CFM which drops your air pressure to around -200psi, stop worrying. 



stickyicky77 said:


> Do you have any advice for my set up when i start flowering the clones ?


Make sure it is fully operable and tested before you need it. Assure it will maintain 24-26C @ 30-50%RH by running it with no plants, just a towel dipping in a bucket of water, placed under the light. Make sure that all electrics are off the floor and protected from wet. Check for light leaks, make sure your op is inaudible where passersby might hear it. Get your scent controls ready as needed.



bigal10 said:


> AL,
> Did you ever mention how much more you were yielding by installing the cool-tubes?


Too soon to tell. Haven't gotten a batch out yet that has been in the room only since the cooltubes were installed. However, the next batch to come out has been under the cooltubes for the last 6 weeks- and it's looking really good.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Mar 27, 2008)

tell how u use 4 trays, i see the method but dnt understand how are u lighting all areas, so im assuming you have 4 trays and they all have hps 12/12, please help me with how do use light i see the rotation but i still dnt see how its poppin out every 2 weeks??


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 27, 2008)

BEEFCAK3 said:


> tell how u use 4 trays, i see the method but dnt understand how are u lighting all areas, so im assuming you have 4 trays and they all have hps 12/12, please help me with how do use light i see the rotation but i still dnt see how its poppin out every 2 weeks??


start from page one.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

BEEFCAK3 said:


> tell how u use 4 trays, i see the method but dnt understand how are u lighting all areas, so im assuming you have 4 trays and they all have hps 12/12, please help me with how do use light i see the rotation but i still dnt see how its poppin out every 2 weeks??


yep, see page 1, post 1... and also *How not to grow dope!*


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *BEEFCAK3*
> tell how u use 4 trays, i see the method but dnt understand how are u lighting all areas, so im assuming you have 4 trays and they all have hps 12/12


*sigh* OK, I'll make it easy- 4 trays, 2x 1000 HPS. Each pair of trays shares a single 1000.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> *sigh* OK, I'll make it easy- 4 trays, 2x 1000 HPS. Each pair of trays shares a single 1000.


Could you give an approximate dry yield of one tray?


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Mar 27, 2008)

ok got it lol! my bad burn one and u should feel better. when u clone do u veg them for a period of time before u put into flower, im assuming ur puttin the clones 12/12 right away??


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 27, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Could you give an approximate dry yield of one tray?


can be found in the middle of the thread somewhere but i think BEFORE the cool tubes it was just over 16oz
(please correct if im wrong Al) and he hasnt concluded on the yield with the cooltubes.



BEEFCAK3 said:


> ok got it lol! my bad burn one and u should feel better. when u clone do u veg them for a period of time before u put into flower, im assuming ur puttin the clones 12/12 right away??


he elabd on this about 5 times not just about 6 or 7 pages back......he cuts them, them puts them under 24 hr light for about10-14 days to set GOOD roots then they go straight into flower


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Could you give an approximate dry yield of one tray?


 About 20-23oz at the moment. 



BEEFCAK3 said:


> ok got it lol! my bad burn one and u should feel better. when u clone do u veg them for a period of time before u put into flower, im assuming ur puttin the clones 12/12 right away??


OK, _*now *_you can go back & read post #1!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> can be found in the middle of the thread somewhere but i think BEFORE the cool tubes it was just over 16oz
> (please correct if im wrong Al) and he hasnt concluded on the yield with the cooltubes.


You're spot on, well done.  

I'm harvesting for the next several days, we'll see how we go, but this one won't really be representative of what the cooltubes will do for yield.



> he elabd on this about 5 times not just about 6 or 7 pages back......he cuts them, them puts them under 24 hr light for about10-14 days to set GOOD roots then they go straight into flower


Yep, mums are under 24/7 light, too. The only deviation is that the clones get a 6 hour dark period immediately after cutting (only)- prevents any wilt while water uptake from the cube is established.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Mar 27, 2008)

alrighty understood that is pretty dam slick to, i love ur taste on set-ups great job keep it up and safe swervin !!


----------



## VictorVIcious (Mar 27, 2008)

tried to rep your patience, says I have to spread it around. How not to grow dope, funny as shit. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

VV, wanna see something EVEN FUNNIER than HNTGD?

Looga_*dis*_!

https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-growing/57813-advantage-v-disadvantage-cfl-s.html

Starts rocking on page 3 with Garden Knowm's comment. 

A WHOLE _*BAG*_, I tell ya!


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> VV, wanna see something EVEN FUNNIER than HNTGD?
> 
> Looga_*dis*_!
> 
> ...


hahaha that must be you who repped me.......i feel honored to be repped by Al.


----------



## panhead (Mar 27, 2008)

Hi Al,im a bit worried about pump failure in the flood & drain systems im starting to build,have you ever ran dual pumps at the same time to one table,kinda as a back up incase a pump goes down.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 27, 2008)

al says he uses the cheapest pumps and havent had that much trouble...you should be straight.

and beside....when you flood......the pump could fail, and you'd be straight for a few days because the media is still kinda damp/soaked!!!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> hahaha that must be you who repped me.......i feel honored to be repped by Al.


You ought to be.  I don't play the rep points game much. After 3600-odd posts, I figured you deserved _*something. *_



panhead said:


> Hi Al,im a bit worried about pump failure in the flood & drain systems im starting to build,have you ever ran dual pumps at the same time to one table,kinda as a back up incase a pump goes down.


 Haven't done that because centrifugal pumps allow backflow when they are not running. In a twin pump system, if one pump totally failed, it would allow water to drain out which had just been pumped up to the tray by the other.



LoudBlunts said:


> al says he uses the cheapest pumps and havent had that much trouble...you should be straight.
> 
> and beside....when you flood......the pump could fail, and you'd be straight for a few days because the media is still kinda damp/soaked!!!


Actually, I do have a lot of problems with water pumps- more than I think I should have, anyway. If it's not a pump just dying, it's air bubbles getting trapped in the centrifugal pump chamber when water drains down (vortex effect) and the pump sitting there cavitating instead of moving water. Expensive pumps have as many problems as the cheap ones, believe it or not. First thing I do when checking the op daily is to lift up a pot from the corner of each tray to make sure it has been watered. 

Pots full of Fytocell don't hold as much water as pots of rockwool floc. Pots of floc will store enough water for 2-3 days, enough even for really big plants- Fytocell will only carry them for a day. 

However, the water storage capacity of RW prevents freshly oxygenated water from frequent contact with roots. That was why I changed. 

I'm testing a small theory at the moment. I've put some little circles of fine stainless steel screen (like Americans use in bong cones, but stolen from a sink faucet water strainer- oh wait, that's where the yanks get them from, too... ) in each fill fitting. This will slow the water flow a fair bit requiring my pumps run longer to fill the trays (big fat hairy deal), but the screens should stop air being sucked down the fill hose and into the pump by Ye Olde Coriolis Effect Vortex.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 27, 2008)

so al, you're telling me there is nothing i do for our pumps? should i look into new pumps?

i mean i cant see no probs yet...but i be damned if i wanted one!


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'm testing a small theory at the moment. I've put some little circles of fine stainless steel screen (like Americans use in bong cones, but stolen from a sink faucet water strainer- oh wait, that's where the yanks get them from, too... ) in each fill fitting. This will slow the water flow a fair bit requiring my pumps run longer to fill the trays (big fat hairy deal), but the screens should stop air being sucked down the fill hose and into the pump by Ye Olde Coriolis Effect Vortex.


can you please elab on that when you notice the diff(if there is any) seems like a good theory, ill follow suit


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> so al, you're telling me there is nothing i do for our pumps? should i look into new pumps?
> 
> i mean i cant see no probs yet...but i be damned if i wanted one!


One thing I've found that will cause probs is if the hose to the pump is longer than needed. The pump outlet should point upward, with no excess length in the hose line, to minimise air bubble capture in the pump. 

Stay tuned. I think the screens will sort it out but I'm not confident enough about that yet to make any sweeping statements.


----------



## Squeechie (Mar 27, 2008)

I had a couple for al.. 

1) I kinda found the answer already in pg 88 so im half way there but heres the situation. I started seed which were in a propagator/cover until roots sprouted thru the rockwool. Then transplanted the small plants with thier rockwool plugs into 5" square pots filled with hydroton pebbels. But before I was thru, i soaked the rockwool with the newly mixed solution it will be receiving. On top of that I was filling the table almost all the way to the top, saturating the rockwool again 6x/24hrs.. What i have now is some of the plants with yellowed bottom leaves, with blotches and overall stunted growth compared to others. Will these plant eventually recover and strive just like the rest by just letting them dry out, or are these scarred and will show the signs of f***up in the future? 

I also have a flood cycle at 2am when the lights go off at 12am. Is that totally wrong?

Also I have heard that you should keep on lowering the flood level as roots extend down into the pebbles. Is this so? And if so, at what point do you stop lowering the level?

Last one... I see you use a HPS for vegging. Any particular reason? Do you use it to get your length on clones faster? I just ordered a Sunmaster Cooldeluxe for $89 compared to a standard MH for $49(and more lumens for cheaper). Did I make a mistake with the lights also?

Thanks for your advice in advance..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 27, 2008)

Squeechie said:


> I had a couple for al..
> 
> 1) I kinda found the answer already in pg 88 so im half way there but heres the situation. I started seed which were in a propagator/cover until roots sprouted thru the rockwool. Then transplanted the small plants with thier rockwool plugs into 5" square pots filled with hydroton pebbels. But before I was thru, i soaked the rockwool with the newly mixed solution it will be receiving. On top of that I was filling the table almost all the way to the top, saturating the rockwool again 6x/24hrs.. What i have now is some of the plants with yellowed bottom leaves, with blotches and overall stunted growth compared to others. Will these plant eventually recover and strive just like the rest by just letting them dry out, or are these scarred and will show the signs of f***up in the future?


Good onya, you've found the fault. 

Yes, if you have corrected the flood level problem, they will recover, but will be slowed a bit until they catch back on. Hopefully, these are still vegging. If they are in flower, they may not have enough weeks left in the flowering cycle catch back up to the others. It's cool, you'll know better for next time. 



> I also have a flood cycle at 2am when the lights go off at 12am. Is that totally wrong?


2 hours _past _lights off? No, you don't need to water during lights-off at all. 

Best not to water immediately before lights-off, too. If lights-off is at midnight, your last watering should be no later than 10-10:30pm. 



> Also I have heard that you should keep on lowering the flood level as roots extend down into the pebbles. Is this so? And if so, at what point do you stop lowering the level?


No, it's OK to flood roots in pellets because pellets don't hold anywhere near the amt of water as does rockwool. There's lots of airspaces between pellets, so you can flood really quite often, about 3x per lights-on in wks 1-2, perhaps 4x in wks 4-6, perhaps as much as 5x in the later weeks. 



> Last one... I see you use a HPS for vegging. Any particular reason? Do you use it to get your length on clones faster? I just ordered a Sunmaster Cooldeluxe for $89 compared to a standard MH for $49(and more lumens for cheaper). Did I make a mistake with the lights also?


I initially used the 400HPS for vegging mums because it was on hand. It worked a treat so I never bothered getting an MH. 

Several years later, I did pick up a MH conversion lamp for HPS on a whim (got it cheep). Used it for about a month- and it did exactly what an MH is supposed to do, surprisingly enough.  Veg growth was much mode compact, internodal lengths much shorter. You'd think that was good news, wouldn't you? 

However- it meant that I didn't have nice long stems for my SoG style cuttings... so I switched back to the 400HPS... and the MH conversion lamp sits on the shelf.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 27, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> .
> 
> I initially used the 400HPS for vegging mums because it was on hand. It worked a treat so I never bothered getting an MH.
> 
> ...


just a quik ? i have a 400 watt lamp with a switchable ballast. i use it with the hps on my plants right now, no reason jus didnt care to use the MH bulbs. im actually experiencing pretty close internodes, about 1" range(plants from seed) but my stems to be cut look very good about 2.5-3.5 mm and theyll get bigger by cutting time. doesnt bother me or anything but they would be closer with the MH bulb? 

also with all these plants i have they are in dirt as of now, im chopping clones off all of them to start the grow in full swing. after i do this the plants will recover well with plenty off flowering stems yes?(plants goin to another op, dirt...) would the MH be a benifit for this situation(getting more stems closer together)? or theyll reproduce as i need pretty much?


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

hey Al do you use a sulfur burner?


----------



## Enigma (Mar 28, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> just a quik ? i have a 400 watt lamp with a switchable ballast. i use it with the hps on my plants right now, no reason jus didnt care to use the MH bulbs. im actually experiencing pretty close internodes, about 1" range(plants from seed) but my stems to be cut look very good about 2.5-3.5 mm and theyll get bigger by cutting time. doesnt bother me or anything but they would be closer with the MH bulb?
> 
> also with all these plants i have they are in dirt as of now, im chopping clones off all of them to start the grow in full swing. after i do this the plants will recover well with plenty off flowering stems yes?(plants goin to another op, dirt...) would the MH be a benifit for this situation(getting more stems closer together)? or theyll reproduce as i need pretty much?


'Blue' light will focus more on the production of leaves than stems. 'Red' light will focus more on the production of stems than leaves. A mixture of both would be ideal.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> im actually experiencing pretty close internodes
> 
> [...]
> 
> they would be closer with the MH bulb?


Most likely. Warmer room temps (above ~26-27C) will also cause some elongation.



> also with all these plants i have they are in dirt as of now, im chopping clones off all of them to start the grow in full swing. after i do this the plants will recover well with plenty off flowering stems yes?(plants goin to another op, dirt...) would the MH be a benifit for this situation(getting more stems closer together)? or theyll reproduce as i need pretty much?


The main reason I've stuck with HPS for vegging is because it yields long internodes which suits my style of cloning. If you are later going to flower a plant you are now vegging, you probably will want to veg it under MH. 



bigal10 said:


> hey Al do you use a sulfur burner?


No, but I'm going to buy one on my next trip to the whse. As temps are tailing off with the end of summer, I'm noticing a bit more powdery mildew than usual and need to do something to slow it down. 

For the uninitiated, sulfur 'burners' don't really burn sulfur, but rather evaporate it. The sulfur settles on leaf surfaces and makes them inhospitable to PM spores trying to colonise them.



Enigma said:


> A mixture of both would be ideal.


I disagree. While the reddish or bluish spectrum will emphasise one character or another, the plant doesn't need the full spectrum at any given point in growth. A lamp which is producing light that the plant doesn't need or can't use is just wasting money. You'll basically want to influence the characters in one direction or the other, either toward short or long internodal distances depending on how you grow. 

The clones taken from mother plants vegged under MH tended to yield shorter budstalks (by about 1/3 overall) by harvest time than clones taken from mums vegging under HPS. In my case, that lowered the yield accordingly. 



As you can see from this pic, a clone from an HPS raised plant will fill the length of the budstalk with buds. Tip burn caused by a combination of excessive heat and a little too heavy dosage on the PK13-14.



The above budstalk being manicured. This one will yield about an oz when dry.



A BIG heaping handful from the above stalk going into the dryer.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

thats what I am talking about amazing updated pics. Ok, begining to gather all the equipment for my grow, should I go with the following instead of the batwings? I will be setting up a similar grow by the way?


----------



## Enigma (Mar 28, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> thats what I am talking about amazing updated pics. Ok, begining to gather all the equipment for my grow, should I go with the following instead of the batwings? I will be setting up a similar grow by the way?


HTGSupply ftw!!!11!111


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

While manicuring, I came across a plant which I missed pruning.


The plant on the right was not properly pruned for SoG. Normally, the branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant is removed- and here's why.



Note annoying little buds on lower branches. Won't yield much but takes as much time to manicure as the nice solid upper nugs. Fan leaves have been removed in this pic, but while they were on, they weren't doing much but obstructing airflow.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> should I go with the following instead of the batwings?


This pkg would be fine, but you'll want to throw away the reflector on the cooltube & make up a batwing for it. The included ref will be inefficient and won't control light pattern very well.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 28, 2008)

Hey Al, can I remove annoying fan leaves in flowering period? I've heard not to touch. I know you are about to harvest. But figure I would ask.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 28, 2008)

Could you think of why only one of my girls are budding 2 weeks in to 12/12??? I have cold temp problems, could that be it?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al, can I remove annoying fan leaves in flowering period? I've heard not to touch. I know you are about to harvest. But figure I would ask.


If you have lower fans which are yellowing or just in the way, pull 'em. Preserve the upper fans as much as possible. 



Kaosisglobal said:


> Could you think of why only one of my girls are budding 2 weeks in to 12/12??? I have cold temp problems, could that be it?


Yep, cool temps will slow them way down. Cannabis will go dormant at 16C & down. Keep the op as close to 24-26C as you can.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

HTGSupply ftw!!!11!111 

I dont know what you mean by that Enigma. Al, How thick are your cool tubes are they 6". Ok, I will make a ref that will be sufficient. Do you think I should go with a better ballast such as,




*CoolStar Switchable 1000w MH & HPS Ballast? *


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 28, 2008)

al, you say trim lower fans, but upper save as much as possible.

would cutting in half be better than pulling the whole leaf?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> Al, How thick are your cool tubes are they 6". Ok, I will make a ref that will be sufficient.


Yes, most cooltubes are 150mm dia, though you can get 120mm.

As you well know, aside from being a stoned slacker, I am a cheap bastard. I absolutely hate spending dough that I just don't have to- and doubly hate seeing hydroponics sales ppl get the better of dope growers. 

Just get a sheet of aluminum from the hdwe- you'll have a proper batwing ref made up, in no more than 20 mins after you get the stuff home. 



> Do you think I should go with a better ballast such as,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


bad link, dood- this links to something on your local HDD.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 28, 2008)

*CoolStar Switchable 1000w MH & HPS Ballast
Ballasts, High Yield Lighting | Cooler-Brighter-Better
* High Tech Garden Supply


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al, you say trim lower fans, but upper save as much as possible.
> 
> would cutting in half be better than pulling the whole leaf?


Sure, if you like, but yellowing lower leaves are spent and can be removed without fear. 

I've always been of the (completely unsubstantiable) opinion that fan leaves attached to the mainstem are mainly supporting the construction of the mainstem and once the finishing height is attained (by wk 4 in a SoG), they are not doing much. I let them be for the most part but remove obviously spent fans. 

If you're up for some experimentation, you can always try removing all fans from several plants and letting them be on some others. Important to have a greater sample quantity than 1 per method being compared when doing stuff like this.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Mar 28, 2008)

Very nice, I'll be cutting my spent leaves soon. I still don't have a closet, doing it out right in the room. Under a shelf that the light is attached to. My widow girl that bloomed is almost touching the shelf, past the shelf, but not touching light (off to side). The others still grew, about as tall in bushes looking great, just still veg for the most part. I have seen the beginning to hairs, but it's like 2 weeks behind.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

no thats not a link to my hydro store, just found it on the web.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 28, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> no thats not a link to my hydro store, just found it on the web.


That URL starts with file:// -- so it isn't on the web, it's on _your_ _hard drive. _You're hot-linking to the copy of the image cached in your IE temp directory. It will appear to work on your machine, until Windows empties the browser cache, but it won't work for anyone else.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> *CoolStar Switchable 1000w MH & HPS Ballast
> Ballasts, High Yield Lighting | Cooler-Brighter-Better
> * High Tech Garden Supply


A ballast is a ballast is a ballast. They are current limiters. Does not matter whether they are inductive/magnetic or electronic, sometimes called 'digital.' The conductivity of the lamp tube is the main determinant of how much power will be dissipated in the lamp tube. 

Lamp tubes are designed to dissipate a certain amount of power. If a ballast permits more power to pass than the lamp is rated for, the lamp's lifetime will be shortened. 

If a ballast maker claims greater luminous output from a given power rated lamp, the _*only*_ way to achieve that is by the ballast not limiting current low enough, allowing excessive power to be dissipated in the lamp, shortening the lamp tube's service life. There's no free lunch!

One maker's claim I can debunk right now is Lumatek's assertion that their electronic ballasts increase luminous output by 30%. I have compared a Lumatek 600 to a standard Chinese-made magnetic 600 ballast, using a lux meter, an AC ammeter and a good quality 600HPS tube. The luminous intensity with either ballast was close to identical (within 3%) but the Lumatek shaved 55W off the total power draw from the mains and ran much cooler than the magnetic. 

If you can't put your ballast outside your op's airmass, the electronic ballast may be for you... at 4-5x the cost of a standard magnetic! 

However, there's simply no contest when it comes to long-term reliability. At the end of the day, it's a lot easier to break a semiconductor junction in a high power circuit than it is to break a coil of copper wire on an iron core. 

I have magnetic ballasts on the order of 10 years old in daily service. If a Lumatek successfully lives out its 5 year warranty, it's doing exceptionally well.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> no thats not a link to my hydro store, just found it on the web.


I didn't say it was a link to your hydro store!

I said it was a link to something on your local HDD. 

Know what an HDD is?


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

Know what an HDD is? Hate to sound stupid but no please elaborate. If there is something I should change on my comp let me know. Another thing that I am curious about is I have been getting updated emails about this thread. What can I do to stop that? Do I need to change my settings etc....


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 28, 2008)

_H_ard _Disk_ _D_rive. 

Once you post in a thread, by default RIU will email you whenever that thread is updated. You can unsubscribe from the thread, or you can change the global setting in your user control panel. (Click the 'My Rollitup' link to get there.)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> If there is something I should change on my comp let me know.


No, you just need to change the way you're using the friggin' thing! 

I believe what you might have done was saved the link to the HTG web page as a bookmark and then pasted that bookmark into your RIU message. 

Instead, copy the URL of the link you want to include (right-click the link, select 'copy link location') and paste that into your message. 

A bookmark file on your local HDD is useful only on your machine, as Mac has said. 

If the URL you paste into a msg doesn't begin with "http://" then it won't be usable by anyone else.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sure, if you like, but yellowing lower leaves are spent and can be removed without fear.
> 
> I've always been of the (completely unsubstantiable) opinion that fan leaves attached to the mainstem are mainly supporting the construction of the mainstem and once the finishing height is attained (by wk 4 in a SoG), they are not doing much. I let them be for the most part but remove obviously spent fans.
> 
> If you're up for some experimentation, you can always try removing all fans from several plants and letting them be on some others. Important to have a greater sample quantity than 1 per method being compared when doing stuff like this.


oh no, i blv you.

im just planning on putting like 4.5 plants per square ft. i know it doesnt make sense....but since i dont have exactly 4 feet to work with (just shy of 4 ft) i kinda just made something up...i knew i was going to be putting more than 4 per foot. but not that much!

i just want to make sure i can trim trim trim if i need to. meaning if the fan leaf is still green and its laying on another plant or blocking airflow, im snipping or cutting in half. 

think im in the clear aye?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> i just want to make sure i can trim trim trim if i need to. meaning if the fan leaf is still green and its laying on another plant or blocking airflow, im snipping or cutting in half.
> 
> think im in the clear aye?


Yes, but I think I'd probably not go overboard pulling fans off before they are about 4-6wks into flower. Defoliation while they are still gaining height will probably stunt them.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 28, 2008)

pulling off the whole fan vs cutting a fan in half.

any difference? same amount of stress? or less cutting in half?

i guess half solar panel is better than no solar panel?


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 28, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> pulling off the whole fan vs cutting a fan in half.
> 
> any difference? same amount of stress? or less cutting in half?
> 
> i guess half solar panel is better than no solar panel?


When cloning you can cut the fan leaves in 1/2 to lower transpiration and keep them from overlapping. Over lapping leaves can foster fungus which can get trapped in between the leaves. Just keep your medium evenly moist to prevent the cut leaves from bleeding out sugars that can attract disease.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 28, 2008)

thanks sticky..... i _already_ know that....


but that wasnt my question


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 28, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Over lapping leaves can foster fungus which can get trapped in between the leaves. ....When cloning you can cut the fan leaves in 1/2 to lower transpiration and keep them from overlapping.


Think that'd work on my toes? 

I've got a related question. I have some plants I've LST'd pretty aggressively so I can get a fair number of clones and start a rotation as described in Al's base system. The training was very successful-- the plants have a ton of new branching growth tips, but they are kind of crowding each other and they are all shaded by the slightly older (and so larger) fan leaves growing from the same internodes. 

The new growth looks like it might be shaded just enough to be yellowing ever so slightly, which makes me nervous. 

I figure I should still leave the fans, eh? The plants aren't that big and probably needs them, the newer growth will regain its vigor once it grows upwards a little. Does that sound right?


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 28, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> thanks sticky..... i _already_ know that....
> 
> 
> but that wasnt my question


I guess i misunderstood you. I personally don't think that it will stunt or stress the plant that much knowing that you can cut the leaves in 1/2 for starting clones and it doesn't seem to stress new clones much. I think that cutting the fan leaves in 1/2 would be better than removing them totally. JC says not to remove large fan leaves unless they have 50% or more damage to them. I would think some solar panel would be better than no solar panel but i am no expert.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, you just need to change the way you're using the friggin' thing!
> 
> I believe what you might have done was saved the link to the HTG web page as a bookmark and then pasted that bookmark into your RIU message.
> 
> ...


lol thats exactly what I did Al. My bad!


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

Al, what do you do in the case of an electrical shut down for whatever reason . What are the dangers that can occur? What safety measures do you think someone should consider if that were to happen.


----------



## cluch (Mar 28, 2008)

thinking on trying your method and was wondering if you would answer sum questions?
why did u use mh over the four trays and hps over mums? i've heard opposite..
the thousand watters are they set to one cycle forever....
and do your plants sit in your grow room side by side at four stages of growth"stair stepping"..pretty much 2 rooms, mumsnclones//the four trays ,thanks


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

you got it all mixed up he only uses hps for both mothers and the rest of the plants. I suggest reading page one and the rest of the thread you will find all your answers.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 28, 2008)

cluch said:


> no doubt it changes from 1 to 108.. just noticed......... great...


no problem enjoy!


----------



## cluch (Mar 28, 2008)

excuse me for typing an i have read sum not all the 108 pages and other forums as well also have been growing out side for years and been smoking for decades shut up nerd
usually revisions will be made to the original draft before publication.. no dis respect to the author ..... vote yes to end marijuana prohibition ... 
also big al10 is a nerd who types when not typed to............


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> pulling off the whole fan vs cutting a fan in half.
> 
> any difference? same amount of stress? or less cutting in half?
> 
> i guess half solar panel is better than no solar panel?


That's about the size of it. Leave them intact if they remain in good condition, for as long as possible. You do want to keep your 'solar panels' as much as you can.



stickyicky77 said:


> When cloning you can cut the fan leaves in 1/2 to lower transpiration and keep them from overlapping. Over lapping leaves can foster fungus which can get trapped in between the leaves.


Here's an instance where I would most definitely NOT disturb fan leaves. The fans are definitely needed for a small clone to grow vegetatively, to gain height etc. Cutting leaves on clones in half is straight outta Uncle Bob's 1972 Yippie Underground grow book. Don't do it. You WILL stunt your plants.



> Just keep your medium evenly moist to prevent the cut leaves from bleeding out sugars that can attract disease.


Pardon me, but _*where on god's green earth*_ did this wacky notion come from? 

If you damage a plant's leaves or stems, sap will quickly dry on the injury site to seal the wound. 

I can't see the evenness of watering of media as having any effect aside from wetting all the roots evenly...



Maccabee said:


> I figure I should still leave the fans, eh? The plants aren't that big and probably needs them, the newer growth will regain its vigor once it grows upwards a little. Does that sound right?


If you see lower leaves on your mums yellowing, try to relocate foliage above them to increase light to the lowers. Do leave the fans if you can. Wouldn't let it scare you too much unless the yellowing is progressing up the plant and it starts to drop a lot of lower leaves. Would go looking for rootzone or watering probs if this were so. 

However, a clone really only needs a couple of fully intact leaves to get going. See the link in my sig to the photoessay about cloning to get an idea of how much foliage a clone should start out with.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> Al, what do you do in the case of an electrical shut down for whatever reason .


Light some candles.



> What are the dangers that can occur?


Wax dripped all over the place, big nasty fire. 



> What safety measures do you think someone should consider if that were to happen.


Keep a fire extinguisher handy. Remove candle wax drips from clothing etc with hot tap water. 

Seriously, a flood system with plants in pots is really quite resistant to power failures. If lights are not running, the plants won't need to be watered. 

What I fear most about power outages are ones that that last more than about 6 hours- can cause my mums to begin flowering.

DWC users are the ones in the poo when power is cut for extended periods. Lack of a continuous air supply will drown roots. 



cluch said:


> thinking on trying your method and was wondering if you would answer sum questions?
> why did u use mh over the four trays and hps over mums? i've heard opposite..


I don't now nor have I ever used MH for flowering. You've misread something along the line. 



> the thousand watters are they set to one cycle forever....


The two 1000HPS lights in the flowering area each have their own timer and do run approximately the same 12/12 cycles, but one light starts about 2-3 mins after the other. HPS lighting draws a lot of current while starting and while the lamp is warming up. Staggering the start times reduces the max load on my wiring. 


> and do your plants sit in your grow room side by side at four stages of growth"stair stepping"..pretty much 2 rooms, mumsnclones//the four trays


Yep, that's right. 



cluch said:


> excuse me for typing an i have read sum not all the 108 pages


And why the hell not? There's some useful stuff in there.


> shut up nerd
> [...]
> also big al10 is a nerd who types when not typed to............


You don't have any right to direct traffic around who has the right to speak and who does not.

_*Don't *_be disrespectful to others in this thread- I just might start ignoring you. 

If you have a problem with someone's data, by all means, support your contention with evidence- but don't attack the person.

I'm the nerdiest fuck in this thread, BTW.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> That's about the size of it. Leave them intact if they remain in good condition, for as long as possible. You do want to keep your 'solar panels' as much as you can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have been reading up on cloning in my Jorge Cervantes 2008 grow bible in the cloning section, since i am almost at that point in my grow. That's where i got the info on cutting the fan leaves and keeping the medium evenly moist to prevent cut leaves from bleeding out sugars. It made since but i guess JC is wrong on that one.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

JC just needs to weed out some old stuff. Most cannabis cultivation is indoors these days- ppl keep mother plants just for cuttings rather than taking cuttings from the lower branches of a plant that will later be flowered outdoors. 

Cuttings taken from lower branches will be very thin stemmed and will have a hard time taking up water through the stem cut. That's about the only justification for going to the extreme of cutting the leaf blades in half. 

The 'medium evenly moist to prevent cut leaves from bleeding out sugars' thing is just nuts. 

I'd like to know what the fuck he was smoking... and maybe I could get a few cuttings.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 29, 2008)

Just a quick question, what do you use to measure pH and PPM?

I'm tired of the litmus paper and guessing.

E


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 29, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Just a quick question, what do you use to measure pH and PPM?
> 
> I'm tired of the litmus paper and guessing.
> 
> E


I use a HANNA pH and ppm combo meter Hanna Instruments Combo tester at Sunburst Hydroponics. It really makes a big difference. It was worth the investment.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

There are $15 digital pH testers on eBay that beat litmus paper like a rented mule.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Just a quick question, what do you use to measure pH and PPM?


I use a Eutech pHScan1 and a Bluelab Truncheon nute meter. Both are the most durable meters in their classes. Both are more than 5 years old and bulletproof. The Eutech pH meter is waterproof, with rubber O-ring seals and has a replaceable probe tip. The tips last about 2 years each. 

However, I don't recommend Bluelab's new pHTruncheon, much as I love their nutrient meter. I had 3 of them die in quick succession, less than a month each. They've got some design or manufacturability issues to sort out on that thing before it's ready for prime time. 

I've heard of some 'disposable' meters from Hanna. Considering the durability of their meters when I was using them- about 2-3 months- they were already disposable, just not labelled as such.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 29, 2008)

You get what you pay for. Reading the pH and ppm's accurately is vital to a productive grow.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> I use a HANNA pH and ppm combo meter


pH meter tip elements only last 2 years. If you buy a combo meter, make sure it has a user-replaceable pH probe. 

Separate meters are nice if only for the comfort that if one meter dies, you're not totally blind until you can get a replacement.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Mar 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> pH meter tip elements only last 2 years. If you buy a combo meter, make sure it has a user-replaceable pH probe.
> 
> Separate meters are nice if only for the comfort that if one meter dies, you're not totally blind until you can get a replacement.


Yeah, i do. I have this combo meter Hanna Instruments Combo tester at Sunburst Hydroponics


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 29, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> I have been reading up on cloning in my Jorge Cervantes 2008 grow bible in the cloning section, since i am almost at that point in my grow. That's where i got the info on cutting the fan leaves and keeping the medium evenly moist to prevent cut leaves from bleeding out sugars. It made since but i guess JC is wrong on that one.





Al B. Fuct said:


> JC just needs to weed out some old stuff. Most cannabis cultivation is indoors these days- ppl keep mother plants just for cuttings rather than taking cuttings from the lower branches of a plant that will later be flowered outdoors.
> 
> Cuttings taken from lower branches will be very thin stemmed and will have a hard time taking up water through the stem cut. That's about the only justification for going to the extreme of cutting the leaf blades in half.
> 
> ...


i think JC is talkin about when the clones are first cut till root growth is predominant.

so i think youl know what jc and sticky means now Al but the sugar thing i think is an old wives tale sorta....i agree with al that jc JUST REVISES his book and does not do much of research anymore so take info from those books with an open eye


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I use a Eutech pHScan1 and a Bluelab Truncheon nute meter. Both are the most durable meters in their classes. Both are more than 5 years old and bulletproof. The Eutech pH meter is waterproof, with rubber O-ring seals and has a replaceable probe tip. The tips last about 2 years each.


I picked up a Bluelab Truncheon nute meter and the Eutech pHtestr Basic a month or so ago. Also waterproof, replaceable tip, etc. I'm *very* happy with them.

My old Hanna pH pen and my nutradip meter had both died since I went inactive a few years ago. I'm much happier with these than I ever was with those. 

It's true that it pays to get decent instruments. However, that's all relative. Cheap electronic meters are still better than nothing, and usually better than most paper or liquid test kits. Even if they die in a few months, in the case of the $15 pH pens.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i think JC is talkin about when the clones are first cut till root growth is predominant.


Yeah, I know what he's trying to do, but it's just an unnecessary step that will slow the clones down in a lot of cases. It shouldn't be taken as a generality. If you have clones with thick stems, a sterile angle cut and damp not saturated media, they won't have any problem with wilt, requiring leaf lopping or anything else eg anti-wilt sprays or humidomes. 



Maccabee said:


> I picked up a Bluelab Truncheon nute meter and the Eutech pHtestr Basic a month or so ago. Also waterproof, replaceable tip, etc. I'm *very* happy with them.


You'll have them for a long time. 



> My old Hanna pH pen and my nutradip meter had both died since I went inactive a few years ago. I'm much happier with these than I ever was with those.


Doubtless. The Hanna pH pens I used early in the piece had screw compression connectors from the main circuit board to the pH sensing element- and no gaskets on the case. Nute soln would wick into these things and foul that screw compression fitting in a few weeks, making the reading wander within minutes of calibration. 



> It's true that it pays to get decent instruments. However, that's all relative. Cheap electronic meters are still better than nothing, and usually better than most paper or liquid test kits. Even if they die in a few months, in the case of the $15 pH pens.


Absolutely- as long as they are reliable while they ARE working...


----------



## FrostickZero (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm getting the rest of the stuff I need to finish off my flowering area hope my first budding time goes well


----------



## Kuji (Mar 29, 2008)

Al, What is your watering schedule for the clone box and how high does the water level get in the flood tray (how much of the rockwool cube does it cover.)

Also, do you use a grow medium in the clone tray or does the water just rise around the cubes themselves? Are the mums in a grow medium?


Sorry for all the questions, but I''m trying to put together plans for the grow/veg room and it's been the most confusing thus far.


----------



## Enigma (Mar 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I use a Eutech pHScan1 and a Bluelab Truncheon nute meter. Both are the most durable meters in their classes. Both are more than 5 years old and bulletproof. The Eutech pH meter is waterproof, with rubber O-ring seals and has a replaceable probe tip. The tips last about 2 years each.
> 
> However, I don't recommend Bluelab's new pHTruncheon, much as I love their nutrient meter. I had 3 of them die in quick succession, less than a month each. They've got some design or manufacturability issues to sort out on that thing before it's ready for prime time.
> 
> I've heard of some 'disposable' meters from Hanna. Considering the durability of their meters when I was using them- about 2-3 months- they were already disposable, just not labelled as such.


 
That's exactly what I need!





Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Al, What is your watering schedule for the clone box and how high does the water level get in the flood tray


The mums and the flowering plants are in flood systems, but clones are handwatered only. Please see the thread about cloning in my signature for detail. I water clones 2x/day, every 12 hours.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

al, im glad you commented about the ph and other meters and such. i have a few more questions for you!

okay, first...i decided to take your info and run with it. im not going to worry too much...just use the central a/c graciously. but that is not my problem.....my worry is would i be dumping too much co2 back into my living quarters? you know by not exhausting the used up co2 enriched hot air? or is the a/c going to take care of that?


another question....those ph meters and such....im in the market for a new meter...im kinda looking for an all-in-one cheap solution. I had my eyes set on this Hanna meter ph/TDS/EC/temp but once you mentioned disposable and not reliable...i started having second thoughts. You dont think that one specific meter is good? Could you recommend an all-in-one meter. Im willing to pay the extra money especially is they are going to take all the abuse very well and last. i also noticed the 5 year warranty....cant beat that!!!

is there a reason you stay away from continuous meters?


----------



## TLR (Mar 29, 2008)

In a lot of your posts I see that you say CFLs lead to shitty buds, and I was wondering why? I plan on buying some 6 odd CFL lights that (4 40 watt 2700K cfl's
2 23 watt daylight cfl's) for 3 plants based on setups I've seen and they have good results. Thanks


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

It's shitty relative to a plant flowered under a comparable HID. 

On the other hand, no weed is even shittier. 

Here's the golden rule of CFL growing:
1) Add two more bulbs. 
2) See #1


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 29, 2008)

TLR said:


> In a lot of your posts I see that you say CFLs lead to shitty buds, and I was wondering why? I plan on buying some 6 odd CFL lights that (4 40 watt 2700K cfl's
> 2 23 watt daylight cfl's) for 3 plants based on setups I've seen and they have good results. Thanks


with the lights ur talking about your almost at 250watts, why not just go buy a 250 watter hid, explaining the inefficiencies of cfls has been done 100 times. just realize its not the way to go unless you only wanna use about 100 watts on a single plant. be nice to your plants, they're nice to you arent they?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al, im glad you commented about the ph and other meters and such. i have a few more questions for you!


 OK 



LoudBlunts said:


> okay, first...i decided to take your info and run with it. im not going to worry too much...just use the central a/c graciously. but that is not my problem.....my worry is would i be dumping too much co2 back into my living quarters? you know by not exhausting the used up co2 enriched hot air? or is the a/c going to take care of that?


 You're enriching with CO2? If you're not, your 'concern' is the excess oxygen your plants are making. 

If you _are_ enriching, you ought to be using an automated CO2 metering and management system. This will set the CO2 concentration at about 700-1000ppm in the grow. If the metering system is working properly, this will be the CO2 concentration in the grow room, but as air is vented from the op into the much larger airmass of the house, it will be mixed with non-enriched air, reducing CO2 to natural atmospheric levels of 300-400ppm. No wucking furries.

However, I don't think I'd seal up my house and crack the valve on an E-size cylinder of CO2... 



LoudBlunts said:


> another question....those ph meters and such....im in the market for a new meter...im kinda looking for an all-in-one cheap solution. I had my eyes set on this Hanna meter ph/TDS/EC/temp but once you mentioned disposable and not reliable...i started having second thoughts. You dont think that one specific meter is good? Could you recommend an all-in-one meter. Im willing to pay the extra money especially is they are going to take all the abuse very well and last. i also noticed the 5 year warranty....cant beat that!!!


 Hanna's quality might be better now than the last time I was shopping for meters. If they offer a 5 year warranty, the worst that can happen is that you're without a meter while waiting on getting a replacement. 

As said previously, I prefer separate meters in case one of them dies. It's cold comfort only being able to see pH or ppm if one meter quits, but it's better than a sharp stick in the eye.



LoudBlunts said:


> is there a reason you stay away from continuous meters?


 Price, mostly. Continuous meters have been running about 3x the price of portable 'pen' meters around here. However, the convenience of a continuous meter is rather negated by the fact that I have 5 nutrient tanks. Either I have 5 continuous reading meters or move one's probes from tank to tank, rather defeating the purpose of a permanently mounted continuous meter.



TLR said:


> In a lot of your posts I see that you say CFLs lead to shitty buds, and I was wondering why? I plan on buying some 6 odd CFL lights that (4 40 watt 2700K cfl's
> 2 23 watt daylight cfl's) for 3 plants based on setups I've seen and they have good results. Thanks


Read my posts about flowering with CFLs and you will have answered your own question. I've explained that in painful levels of detail not long ago. 

The short answer is CFLs produce low-intensity light and putting a number of them next to one another won't increase their luminous intensity one bit. *The added lumen ratings of 'paralleled' lighting (of any sort) are meaningless. *If you have two 1500lm CFLs lighting the same area, the luminous intensity is 1500lm, not 3000. Cannabis needs high intensity to produce tight, dense nugs- and you won't get high intensity from fluoros, either CFL or cylindrical tube type. There's no such thing as a fluoro grow that is equivalent to HPS, no matter how many CFLs you use. 

A photo of a plant flowering under CFL will not tell you anything about its weight and density. If you want some useful data from pics found online, find one of the myriad CFL-HPS comparison grows some adventurous folk have gone to the trouble to do.

It's your time and money to waste- but don't say you weren't warned when you get fluffy little buds from your grocery shopping basket full of silly little CFLs. 



cmak40 said:


> with the lights ur talking about your almost at 250watts, why not just go buy a 250 watter hid


Yes, indeedy do!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> It's shitty relative to a plant flowered under a comparable HID.


This of course presumes that there is a such thing as a CFL (or combination of them) comparable in luminous output to any HID... but there ain't.



> On the other hand, no weed is even shittier.


True... but if you're going to go to the trouble of growing dope indoors and you're going to use a couple hundred watts to do it, wouldn't you rather get some decent quality for your hard work?



> Here's the golden rule of CFL growing:
> 1) Add two more bulbs.
> 2) See #1


That's the golden rule according to sellers of CFLs, but it's not terribly useful to you & me. As I have said many times, CFLs don't get brighter when placed side-by-side. 

My revised golden rule of CFL growing:

1) use them on clones, seedlings and for slow vegging mums, they're great for those purposes
2) don't bother with CFLs for flowering, go buy a small HPS and cooltube it if you have a small air volume space to light.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

check my sig for hilarious claims to the cfls!!1


----------



## panhead (Mar 29, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> check my sig for hilarious claims to the cfls!!1


 
That kills me every time i look at it,fruity buds


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

FZ is a dweeb and is a new denizen of my ignore list. 

However, I don't want to demonise those tempted to flower with CFLs or CFL evangelists as morons in general. They're cheap- but not all of them are fools.

What I DO want to do is advise that CFLs are neither the next big thing nor particularly good at the job of flowering cannabis. 

Yes, they are cheap. Yes, they are widely available. Yes, they appear bright to the eye. Yes, the 'incandescent equivalent wattage' comparison value on the packaging is impressive to the casual observer. Yes, they run cooler than HID lighting. All very compelling reasons to try them... if one forgets or willingly discounts the fact that cannabis needs high intensity light to make dense flowers, absent from fluoros lighting. 

However, fluoros of all types are low pressure mercury arc lights. They make light by sustaining an arc through a tube filled with mercury gas. That arc excites a layer of a powdered fluorescing material inside the tube to glow, much more brightly than would such a low-powered arc alone. 

The arc in a fluoro tube is very low energy compared to the arc in an HID lamp and only emits as much light as it does because of the fluorescing qualities of the powder. Unfortunately, even if the arc were much stronger, the fluoro coating is a powdered solid and blocks any light emitted from the arc per se. 

It is actually this powdered coating which fluoro tubes rely upon to block the otherwise strong UV output of an arc through mercury vapour. UV fluorescent tubes for ozonators are simply typical fluoro tubes without the fluoro powder.

HID lighting relies on a much higher energy arc, exciting mercury and sodium as a vapour to glow. No intermediate layer of a powdered solid coating on the inside of the tube to block the path from the arc to the plants. This is why HID lighting can generate high-intensity light.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> This of course presumes that there is a such thing as a CFL (or combination of them) comparable in luminous output to any HID... but there ain't.


Well, not to quibble, but I meant that to agree with what you're saying, exactly. Compared to any HID, CFLs can't compete. Relative to the old-school grows people used to try using only standard output shop-lite tubes, CFLs certainly work a lot better. They may not actually be any 'better' or really any different (electrically speaking) but they are _very _flexible in terms of placement, mounting, adjustment, etc. They make growing in spaces/situations where even a 150W wallpack HPS wouldn't be manageable into a possibility, if an awkward one. 



> True... but if you're going to go to the trouble of growing dope indoors and you're going to use a couple hundred watts to do it, wouldn't you rather get some decent quality for your hard work?


What's important, in the end, is that I have medication. Sure, I'd rather yield more per unit of work or cost--but something is better than nothing! To that end, I'm not making myself choose. I have my main 430W HPS grow, and am now experimenting with CFLs in a couple cabinets--mostly for cloning and veg but there is the one experimental cab intended to be a rotating scrog. 



> That's the golden rule according to sellers of CFLs, but it's not terribly useful to you & me. As I have said many times, CFLs don't get brighter when placed side-by-side.


Yeah, I didn't mean it that way. In the fixture I built that's comprised of staggered row of CFLs, the layout is designed to allow the scrog's colas to grow up into the space between the bulbs. As I see it, you can't maximize intensity with CFLs, but you _can_ maximize coverage and make sure that as much light at whatever intensity is reaching the plant from every direction. So far as I can tell, this is the big lesson GK is trying to teach people. 



> My revised golden rule of CFL growing:
> 
> 1) use them on clones, seedlings and for slow vegging mums, they're great for those purposes
> 2) don't bother with CFLs for flowering, go buy a small HPS and cooltube it if you have a small air volume space to light.


OK, but I'd add this:

3) If you positively can't use an HPS, you need to _surround_ your bud-sites with CFLs. Maximize coverage (amount of light), as brightness (intensity of light) is fixed. It seems to me there's an analogy to hydraulic or electrical power: you can deliver X amount of energy through more volume (amps) at a lower pressure (voltage)--which is CFLs-- or you can have it by delivering less volume at a higher pressure--HIDs. Not a perfect analogy, I know, in part because all things are _not_ equal, with _Cannabis_ preferring sufficient higher-intensity light to excessive lower-intensity light. 

4) Stop bothering Al about CFLs--there's a whole sub-forum for them!

EDIT: I think that last post of Al's wraps it up pretty neatly.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 29, 2008)

hey al, rule 1 of cfls. when you say slow veggin moms, do mean in a situation where i may be doin your setup on a four weeks rotation, or even if i just fill a whole room every 8 weeks and keep the moms under cfls for the 8 weeks wait?


----------



## butterflykisses (Mar 29, 2008)

hey Al i found the last bag of fytocell and i got it. the question is should i soak it for 24 hrs. in the nute. solution? is that what you do? also my tap water is 250 to 320 ppm would it be best to use RO with this high ppm? thank you for your invaluable expertise.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Relative to the old-school grows people used to try using only standard output shop-lite tubes, CFLs certainly work a lot better. They may not actually be any 'better' or really any different (electrically speaking) but they are _very _flexible in terms of placement, mounting, adjustment, etc.


 Great point here, and all those following. Agreed fully. 

CFLs can produce _*some*_ bud- which is always better than none. 



cmak40 said:


> hey al, rule 1 of cfls. when you say slow veggin moms, do mean in a situation where i may be doin your setup on a four weeks rotation, or even if i just fill a whole room every 8 weeks and keep the moms under cfls for the 8 weeks wait?


Yes, CFLs will maintain the mums fine in a situation where you infrequently need cuttings. You won't have to prune back and discard the excess plant material not needed for cuttings as often as you would when using HID lighting to maintain them. However, over 8 weeks, even under CFL, your mums will need pruning back a couple of times. 



butterflykisses said:


> hey Al i found the last bag of fytocell and i got it. the question is should i soak it for 24 hrs. in the nute. solution? is that what you do? also my tap water is 250 to 320 ppm would it be best to use RO with this high ppm? thank you for your invaluable expertise.


Fytogreen do advise you to soak Fytocell in nute soln for 24h before use- that's the instruction as printed on the bag. However, I find that packing pots with wet Fytocell is a messy pain in the ass. I pack my pots with 25-50mm of RW floc then fill the remainder with dry Fytocell. I'll then flood the pots from the bottom in the flood trays and also from the top with a spare pump and hose, making sure the material is well saturated before plugging in plants. 

A ppm that high tells me that you probably have a lot of dissolved limestone in your tapwater. A high pH (8-8.5) would further indicate that to be the source. If the source were high salinity, the pH would not necessarily be so high. 

Limestone is mainly calcium- an important micronutrient. I even use a calcium addtive in my tanks. The main effect of excessive limestone will be to raise the pH- and you can fix that with your pHDown sauce. 

I don't think I'd bother with RO or distilled water unless I knew the water had a lot of sulfur or salt- most likely to be found in bore water. Municipal tapwater will be fine. I've never had a problem in any hydro op (nor been advised of any) caused by municipal tapwater.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've never had a problem in any hydro op (nor been advised of any) caused by municipal tapwater.


Do they use chlorination where you are? I've been in U.S. cities where the chlorine in the tap water can be smelled in the glass. 

FWIW, your municipality should have water quality information, in minute detail, freely available. Probably online. 

For Americans, here's the EPA jump page to get you there:

Environmental Protection Agency - Local Drinking Water Information

Pick your state and it will help you drill down. 

Brits:
UK Defra | e-Digest Environment Statistics, Inland water quality and use

Canadians:
Drinking Water - Water Quality

Do we have many users from anywhere else?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

COT DAMNIT!!! maccabee i had a website where i plugged in information and it would give me the details of the water.... i thought i bookmarked it...guess not.

you know what im talking about?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

thank god i havent cleared my history in 2 weeks....


thank god for the history and search function aye???

EWG Investigation | U.S. Tap Water Quality Database enjoy folks!


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> thank god i havent cleared my history in 2 weeks....
> 
> 
> thank god for the history and search function aye???
> ...


Very cool, but you may find that the local water department sites and reports linked to by the EPA has more comprehensive information. Mine has three pages of TDS readings from various checkpoints in the distribution network.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Do they use chlorination where you are? I've been in U.S. cities where the chlorine in the tap water can be smelled in the glass.


Chlorination is used in just about all modern municipal reticulation systems around the world. 

Chlorination is wacky stuff- strangely, when your pool's water reeks of chlorine & burns your eyes, it probably has _too little_ chlorine. 



> Pool Chlorine Smell
> 
> Many pool owners complain that the swimming pool water is not really clean, but they can smell the chlorine so there must be enough in the water to ensure disinfection.
> 
> ...


Also, with specific reference to tapwater:



> My water smells like chlorine. I don't like it. Why does it have to be in the water?
> 
> Chlorine is a very effective disinfectant used kill any harmful bacteria that might be present in the water source. The amount of chlorine that is used is based on several things.
> 
> ...


Chlorinated tapwater will not hurt plants. It is the indoor grower's friend. It suppresses pathogens in the pipeline and in your tanks, at least until it evaporates out of solution. If you can smell chlorine in the tapwater, there's more hazard potential from pathogens not killed due to insufficient chlorination than from the chlorine.


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Chlorinated tapwater will not hurt plants. It is the indoor grower's friend.


Now, _that's _interesting. I keep reading about how I need an RO system to remove chlorine, and that it _will _kill my plants. It's often suggested that if you don't have RO, you should leave muni water out in an uncovered container for 1 - 2 days if you can, to allow the chlorine to evaporate, and that you can aerate it violently to speed the process.....

That's all superstition and nonsense? I'd be cool if it were. My tap water is 200PPM, not _so_ bad, so I'd like to avoid buying an RO system if I can. (The city reports the chlorine levels at the sampling point closest to me to be 1.2 PPM -- it seems hard to imagine that little could cause an issue....chlorate levels, on the other hand, are higher.)


----------



## GoodFriend (Mar 29, 2008)

the way i see it... an indoor hydro or soilless grower using strictly chem ferts should use chlorinated water

an organic grower would want to bubble most of the chlorine out of the water,... in organics its all about building up a microherd of beneficial bacteria that help get nutrient to your plants... the chlorine would kill off that bene. bacteria....


atleast, thats my take on it


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

thanks for the tips al....i already got a co2 monitoring system, i've yet to touch it tho...as its for the cab and not the tent!

i also agree with you. i wasnt planning on sealing up that room....maybe just some heavy curtains and possibly panda film.... just to make sure no nosy binoculars...never can be too careful eh??

and mannnn im just gonna try that hanna...ill report back to you on the quality...when was the last time you went meter shopping?

it does suck that it looks like i cant change the ph probe myself...130 bucks for ph/ec/tds/temp is looking pretty good tho!

if all else fail...i will get the bluelabs like i should have in the first place.... i still may get them as a backup like you recommend. i would be S.O.L aye?


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Now, _that's _interesting. I keep reading about how I need an RO system to remove chlorine, and that it _will _kill my plants. It's often suggested that if you don't have RO, you should leave muni water out in an uncovered container for 1 - 2 days if you can, to allow the chlorine to evaporate, and that you can aerate it violently to speed the process.....
> 
> That's all superstition and nonsense? I'd be cool if it were. My tap water is 200PPM, not _so_ bad, so I'd like to avoid buying an RO system if I can. (The city reports the chlorine levels at the sampling point closest to me to be 1.2 PPM -- it seems hard to imagine that little could cause an issue....chlorate levels, on the other hand, are higher.)


he hit on that a few pages back...i think he said 200 plus is pushing it. Anything you wouldnt drink, you shouldnt be feeding to your plants perse.... especially with the tanish/bronzish/brownish tint to the water...yuck!


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 29, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> he hit on that a few pages back...i think he said 200 plus is pushing it. Anything you wouldnt drink, you shouldnt be feeding to your plants perse.... especially with the tanish/bronzish/brownish tint to the water...yuck!


It's clear. And I _do_ drink it.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> It's clear. And I _do_ drink it.


wow!!! that took alot of searching!!!!

make me realize again how much Al reiterates shit. Shows he loves us & his hobby 


https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks-21.html#post639586


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> That's all superstition and nonsense? I'd be cool if it were.


Yep, that's about it. 

I do agree with LJI that if you're using organics, you do have the possibility of killing beneficial microbes with chlorinated water. The 'bubbling off chlorine' advice sounds like something useful for soil/organic growers, not a chemical based hydro op. You can't use H2O2 with organics either. 

...kinda begs the effing question, *why* would you use organics? The elements that cross the root barrier are elements- matters little whether your plants get their nitrogen from ammonium nitrate or from rotted veg matter and bat guano. 



LoudBlunts said:


> and mannnn im just gonna try that hanna...ill report back to you on the quality...when was the last time you went meter shopping?


Haven't had to buy a meter of any sort in years (probably 7 years in the case of my Truncheon- it's branded NZ Hydroponics and the company has since even changed their name to Bluelab), just have replaced the probe tip on the Eutech pH meter every couple of years. 

BTW, I can get Eutech pHScan1 meters for $AUD112.53 ($USD103.14), posts to USA via Australia Post Air Mail for about $AUD9.00. I can also get Bluelab Truncheon nute meters for $AUD108.90 (USD$99.81), similar postage.


----------



## smartfood (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey Al, quick question: I have a 400 hps and I'm probably going to buy a 600W as well. Would you suggest having the 400 over weeks 1-4 and the 600 over weeks 5-8? Or the other way around? I'm trying to think of when the plants would benefit the most from the greater light intensity.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Mar 29, 2008)

you know anything about the bluelabs combo meters?


----------



## GoodFriend (Mar 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> ...kinda begs the effing question, *why* would you use organics? The elements that cross the root barrier are elements- matters little whether your plants get their nitrogen from ammonium nitrate or from rotted veg matter and bat guano.


organics is more like an art... haha... a million different theories and beliefs and "right ways" of doing things...

chem nutes is kinda just plug and chug.... do -this- and you get -that-

having smoked both, i can't tell the difference in taste... though there are some people who think that different organic regimens will bring out different nuances in the bud....

al, i'm sure you've heard it all before
and as long as the pot is fairly yummy and gets me high enough, well i'm set.... and so are my buyers...

i mean hell... enough people smoke reggy/comemercial and god knows what might have been used during the grow...


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 29, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> organics is more like an art... haha... a million different theories and beliefs and "right ways" of doing things...
> 
> chem nutes is kinda just plug and chug.... do -this- and you get -that-
> 
> ...


https://www.budmail.biz/index.php?main_page=login&zenid=cbba9394d347d11ba778f524ef554860

if you have a memebership here check it out, if you dont have one create one and check it out its free dont worry.

now i asked al about organics and bigged it up a little and he yelled at me so im not gonna say anything other than ive been smokin for about 12 years everyday and have always had more money than ambition, i buy off this site every week an ounce of ORGANIC grown purple kush. im gettin tired of paying the price so thats why im in forums learning for myself, that being said there IS a difference in taste if you are smoking REAL ORGANIC grown weed. i may know less than al has forgotton about growing weed but i know good tasting weed and a good high when i smoke it, and ORGANIC TASTES BETTER.

people have opinions but if you are a TRUE CONNOISSEUR then you will agree. do some research and you will find that there is certain organic nutrients that can handle h2o2 and do well in hydro setups. 

anyway sorry for the hijack just my quik opinion while the topic is up


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hey Al, quick question: I have a 400 hps and I'm probably going to buy a 600W as well. Would you suggest having the 400 over weeks 1-4 and the 600 over weeks 5-8? Or the other way around? I'm trying to think of when the plants would benefit the most from the greater light intensity.


 Use the 400 over the less developed plants. The bigger plants will like the foliar penetration capacity of the more powerful light. 



LoudBlunts said:


> you know anything about the bluelabs combo meters?


I know their current pHTruncheon doesn't work worth a damn... I would be wary of other Bluelab pH meters, combined with a nute meter or not. They tried getting into pH meters some years ago and gave up for a long time until the recent introduction of the pHTruncheon. Don't know why.



lumberjack_ian said:


> organics is more like an art... haha... a million different theories and beliefs and "right ways" of doing things...
> 
> chem nutes is kinda just plug and chug.... do -this- and you get -that-


You bet. It's much less complex. You're growing ONE organism in a chem hydro op- cannabis plants. IMNSFHO, the best way is the one that gives as good a result as any other but involves the least effort and possibility for failure. 



> having smoked both, i can't tell the difference in taste... though there are some people who think that different organic regimens will bring out different nuances in the bud....


mm, ok



> al, i'm sure you've heard it all before


Not ALL- I'm always getting surprised with something.



> and as long as the pot is fairly yummy and gets me high enough, well i'm set.... and so are my buyers...


That's part of the nut, but the thing your buyers will like better than anything is reliability of supply. You can grow golden buds dripping with diamonds but no one will care if you can only make an oz a year. There's something to be said for fault tolerance in a grow. Nothing worse than a period of no buds due to some failure in the op. Chem nutes and H2O2 make reliably productive ops dead easy.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 30, 2008)

hey al!! hows it going?

i was just reading a thread from another MJ guru and thought you might be interested in some of the concepts on here

Ask Lucas - Cannabis-World

i know your very knowledgeable, but i wasnt sure if youve seen some of these idea's. 

i hope you like the read.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

cheese and rice!

Not quite with him on everything... that guy's got more time on his hands than even me.


----------



## We TaRdED (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> cheese and rice!


"cheese and rice!" is that good or bad? lol

i havent read past the first couple pages myself. im lost on the whole 0-8-16 stuff they use.... is that the npk of the nutes?

i have yet to go hydro(soiless mix- the passive "hydro" way.. its just like soil except you need to start nuting from the first few days JMHO), so a lot of that stuff does not pertain to me yet. anyways i just figured it might help you save some money on changing your res every 2 weeks or so..... interesting concepts regardless. 

reading threads like that make me realize how much i dont know... lol that guy, along with you al, definitely knows his stuff. JMHO

sorry for the hijack, but you dont have PM's last time i heard.....


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> cheese and rice!


LOL! Is that for growing pot, or catching trout?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> "cheese and rice!" is that good or bad? lol
> 
> i havent read past the first couple pages myself. im lost on the whole 0-8-16 stuff they use.... is that the npk of the nutes?


He's using that notation format to describe ml of nutes per some amt of water- it IS a bit confusing as it looks exactly like an NPK notation.



> i have yet to go hydro(soiless mix- the passive "hydro" way.. its just like soil except you need to start nuting from the first few days JMHO), so a lot of that stuff does not pertain to me yet. anyways i just figured it might help you save some money on changing your res every 2 weeks or so..... interesting concepts regardless.


That was precisely the concept I was not in agreement with the guy on. 

If you top up a half-eaten tank of mixed nutes with more nutrient concentrate and water, unless you have a mass spectrometer to divine the actual content of each nutrient existing in the old solution (an EC meter will only tell you about the total dissolved salts, but nothing about how much N, P & K are individually in solution), _you don't know_ what quantity of nutrients (nor their proportion to one another) are remaining in the tank before you start adding more nutes. REAL easy to nute burn. There's an appropriate ratio of N:K for veg and flower- and if you don't know what it is before you start adding more, you're shooting yourself in the foot. 

You should start with a freshly mixed tank, replace the water as it is consumed/evaporated, then dump the tanks at ~15 days and mix up fresh sauce. Nutrient mixes are engineered to provide not only adequate amounts of nutrients but also to keep the ratios of nutes, one to the others, within certain tolerances for the life of a tank of mixed nutes.



Maccabee said:


> LOL! Is that for growing pot, or catching trout?


'cheese and rice' is a euphemism (colloquial to mudwestern USA) for the expletive 'JEEEEZUS _*CHRIST!*_" I don't euphemise much, but I DO love 'cheese & rice' cos it just _SOUNDS_ funny.


----------



## GoodFriend (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> He's using that notation format to describe ml of nutes per some amt of water- it IS a bit confusing as it looks exactly like an NPK notation.


i think he's describing the lucus formula... where you only use the micro and bloom of a 3 part nute system... and for veg you feed in ratios of 2partsMICRO:1partBLOOM and in flower 2partsBLOOM:1partMICRO

the normal rec. does of each is 5ml/gal, so this would be about a 160% strength feed...

oh, and the so 0-8-16 would be 0ml grow - 8ml bloom - 16ml micro

giving you an NPK of 16-8-16 if i'm not mistaken... if using GH flora system atleast...

sorry for the interjection just thought i'd help ya clear that up for our friend...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

Yep, I'd seen he was talking about GH 3-part nutes, should have made mention of that. 

I know lots of ppl have great success with GH nutes, but 3 part mixes seem unnecessarily complex to me. With Canna's 2-part goo, I put 400ml each of "A" & "B" in a 125L tank- and it's done for the next 2 weeks.


----------



## GoodFriend (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, I'd seen he was talking about GH 3-part nutes, should have made mention of that.
> 
> I know lots of ppl have great success with GH nutes, but 3 part mixes seem unnecessarily complex to me. With Canna's 2-part goo, I put 400ml each of "A" & "B" in a 125L tank- and it's done for the next 2 weeks.


thats what lucas is trying to make less complicated...
ditch the gro part...effectively making it a 2 part series... and veg go 2part micro to 1 part bloom, and reverse the ratio in flower...

i don't worry about the hole res and topping off part as i'm doing hempy growing... which might make this system more useful...


----------



## Maccabee (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 'cheese and rice' is a euphemism (colloquial to mudwestern USA) for the expletive 'JEEEEZUS _*CHRIST!*_" I don't euphemise much, but I DO love 'cheese & rice' cos it just _SOUNDS_ funny.


Hah! I thought it was some totally ridiculous organic tea recipe. I was thinking "these organics guys are getting totally out of pocket." 

I win the gullible award today.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

say, did you hear that Oxford is going to remove the word 'gullible' from the dictionary? Too few people understand what it means for it to be a useful part of the lexicon.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> say, did you hear that Oxford is going to remove the word 'gullible' from the dictionary? Too few people understand what it means for it to be a useful part of the lexicon.


lmao, really? jk good one tho.

quik ?, i have a 4x8 flower area(4 2x4 flood tables in a row) do you think 2 600s over each 4x4 area is sufficient, thats only 37.5 wats per sq/ft and i can use cooltubes for those which i think i mite need to in the summer, or should i use a 1000 watt for a 4x4 area on a light mover so it will cover each 4x4 area fully,that is 62.5 watss per sq/ft....(that much necesarry?) with this tho i CANNOT cool tube it. it is in a base ment where in the summer its probably around 20-22 c without any op in there.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

cmak, I'd put a pair of 1000s over that 4x8 so each covers 4x4. If you had a 1000 moving over a 4x8, that's only 31.5W/sf.

Too bad you can't cooltube... but why not? What's going to happen to your main exhaust? Got a big crawlspace or something to dump exhaust into? It's all gotta go somewhere.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Mar 30, 2008)

well the is an enigma. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> well the is an enigma. VV


I agree- the sure _*is*_ an enigma!


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> cmak, I'd put a pair of 1000s over that 4x8 so each covers 4x4. If you had a 1000 moving over a 4x8, that's only 31.5W/sf.
> 
> Too bad you can't cooltube... but why not? What's going to happen to your main exhaust? Got a big crawlspace or something to dump exhaust into? It's all gotta go somewhere.


a 6 foot light mover on centre with 1 1000 covering 8 feet would essentially be 2 1000s no? i have access to, 1-1000, 8-600s, and 2-400s, i dont think i have the available power for 2 1000s but i do have 4 cool tubes..

was gonna go 400cfm carbon filter--->cooltubed 600 over 2-2x4s--->cooltubed 600 over 2-2x4s--->cooltubed 400 over moms---> 440cfm inline exhaust, everything is 6 inch diameter. it will be exhausted either back into the basement or outside depends on whats available but i think i can put it under my porch. thats alot of hot air in the middle of winter pooring out of house tho?!?!?! and the intake will be from the basement passive basically. the room itself is a totally sealed 7.5ftx13ftx6.2ft high room its gonna be a revamped version of my journal at a diff location.

also al i cut some clones las nite they looked good nice and big so id thought theyd be good but i went ther todayand they were droopy as hell. they are in a tupperware dish upside down under a 400, the area was about 28 c and they had plenty of water in the bottom of the tray to evaporate any idea/suggestion?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 30, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> a 6 foot light mover on centre with 1 1000 covering 8 feet would essentially be 2 1000s no?


No. 

If the light is only over a given point for 1/2 the time, it will apply only half the luminous energy to that spot. With a linear light mover, the centre part of the travel gets more light on avg than the ends, but the light is distributed (and divided) by the time the lamp is over any given point. Rotary light movers don't have the uneven distribution along the travel problem but light energy is still divisible by the amt of time the lamp is covering a given point. 



> i have access to, 1-1000, 8-600s, and 2-400s, i dont think i have the available power for 2 1000s but i do have 4 cool tubes..


Try your 1000 over one 4x4 end of the 4x8 and a couple of the 600s over 2x4 segments of the other end and cooltube the lot. Run the 1000 @ about 350mm above the leaves and the 600s about 200mm. Lots of lumens per m2 on the 600 x2 end, ought to make some heavy buddage if you put your late flowering plants there.


> it will be exhausted either back into the basement or outside depends on whats available but i think i can put it under my porch. thats alot of hot air in the middle of winter pooring out of house tho?!?!?! and the intake will be from the basement passive basically. the room itself is a totally sealed 7.5ftx13ftx6.2ft high room its gonna be a revamped version of my journal at a diff location.


Under the porch might keep you from having to shovel snow depending on where you are...  That would be a bit if a giveaway if all your neighbours are giving themselves heart attacks trying to start their snow blowers, but sounds incredibly convenient. If you can make it silent, sounds as good a solution as any. 



> also al i cut some clones las nite they looked good nice and big so id thought theyd be good but i went ther todayand they were droopy as hell. they are in a tupperware dish upside down under a 400, the area was about 28 c and they had plenty of water in the bottom of the tray to evaporate any idea/suggestion?


What's the medium? Is it wet or saturated? Do I understand you have them covered with a tupperware as a humidome? I know you probably did, but did you sterilise everything (scalpel, hands, H2O2 in clone watering soln, all plant contact surfaces)? Did you give them 6 hours darkness after cutting? How far away is that 400? Do you have a heat mat?


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> What's the medium? Is it wet or saturated? Do I understand you have them covered with a tupperware as a humidome? I know you probably did, but did you sterilise everything (scalpel, hands, H2O2 in clone watering soln, all plant contact surfaces)? Did you give them 6 hours darkness after cutting? How far away is that 400? Do you have a heat mat?


they are in 40mm rockwool cubes, 

i think that they may be a little over saturated but they dont feel like it to me(im NEW) yes a tupperware thats all i had, walmart didnt have one. 

ya i sterilized everything, i cut them off the plant then put under water and cut again then into rooting solution then into cubes. 

ahh ya they went into about 4hrs of darkness and under a 400 hps that puts enuf heat to keep the area plenty warm(closet)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> they are in 40mm rockwool cubes,


cool. 



> i think that they may be a little over saturated but they dont feel like it to me(im NEW)


40mm cubes weigh 5g dry, 25g when properly damp, not wet.



> yes a tupperware thats all i had, walmart didnt have one.


Whether a tupperware or a humidome, it's not needed if the plant can get water through the stem cut.



> ya i sterilized everything, i cut them off the plant then put under water and cut again then into rooting solution then into cubes.


Eliminate the underwater stem cut. Not necessary. If the water isn't sterile, it's a pathogen vector. Ignore dire warnings of 'air embolisms' in cuttings. It's a practise florists use for cut flowers, not real useful for propagation. 

Just cut with a sterile scalpel, dip in rooting powder (yes powder- gels can harbour pathogens, powders form a paste which stays put through several waterings), knock off all excess powder, leaving only a dusting, and plug in the cube. A heat mat will improve your strike rate dramatically. 



> ahh ya they went into about 4hrs of darkness and under a 400 hps that puts enuf heat to keep the area plenty warm(closet)


Probably too much radiant heat. A clone without a root system has a hard time picking up enough water without applying a lot of light or thermal stress, both which increase the transpiration from the leaves. Clones need very little light intensity- they just need enough light to be convinced it is daytime for 18+hrs/day so to remain in veg state. Get a CFL or regular flo over them. 

Go back over my post about cloning in rockwool. If you follow that like a cookbook recipe- to the letter- you will get 100% strikes in 6-7 days. 

I think you may have got the beginnings of pythium/fusarium stem rot- the underwater recut could be the culprit. A humidome will not solve the problem. However, all is not lost. You can re-cut your stems, dip in rooting powder and plug back in the existing cubes you've tried to use once before, but the cubes will need to be treated with a sterilising solution, 50% H2O2 @ 1ml per litre of solution, pH adjust to 5.8. Drain the cubes with a salad spinner or with a snap of the wrist so they weigh about 20-25g.

Watering clones in rockwool is really hard to get right, I certainly acknowledge that. The best way is to dip only a corner of the cube in a watering solution. The cubes really should be quite dry (lost about 1/2 the water weight, cube wt about 15g) 12 hours after watering. You'll have to estimate the weight of the cutting in the cube if you will be trying to manage watering by cube weight, but it's a sure way to make it work.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2008)

I've just re-read the cloning bit. When I wrote it, I was using a weak dose of veg nutes in the clone watering solution. I later found this slowed rooting and deleted that from the process. 

I really ought to get a moderator to edit that out of that post. I can no longer edit it- I think the board is set to only allow editing for a certain time after posting.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 31, 2008)

thanx al really appreciate that ill be there in the morning to try n mend things up.

also what do you use for nutes on your moms?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> thanx al really appreciate that ill be there in the morning to try n mend things up.


coolio. 

Just don't repeat the overwatering. Overwet conds drive all the O2 out of the cube, slowing root node formation and favouring pythium/fusarium rot. You should be not able to shake any water out of a properly _just damp_ cube with a snap of the wrist. It's better to underwater and check them several times per day to make sure they have not dried out than to overwater. 

You can also buy a 60ml irrigation syringe from the pharmacy for watering the cubes- these don't come with needles, are easy to buy and not too exxy. Easy way to measure small amts of water. Each watering should take about 10-15ml per cube for 12 hours when using a heat mat, slightly less without a mat. Squirt the water into the bottom of the cubes.



> also what do you use for nutes on your moms?


Canna Vega (Substra), 1400-1600ppm @ 5.8.


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 31, 2008)

ok im trying to figure out how many clones I should start with to begin the whole cycle. The goal is to have 8-10 moms at all times, 30 on each tray, 35 clones ready to go into the trays at all times. Should I get 12 clones to start and then grow them into mothers and then clip, or try to get 40 clones 30 for the first tray and 10 to grow into mother. What do you think?


----------



## Kuji (Mar 31, 2008)

Can this method be expanded with more plants and more stages of growth to get a harvest every week?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> ok im trying to figure out how many clones I should by to begin the whole cycle. the goal is to have 8-10 moms at all times, 30 on each tray, 35 clones . Should I get 12 clones to start and then grow them into mothers and then clip, or try to get 40 clones 30 for the first tray and 10 to grow into mother. What do you think?


If you're buying clones, you could buy just one, veg it up for 2-3 weeks, get 15 cuts intending to use the best 10 for mums, then veg those up for 2-3 wks to give you your 40 cuts for your first batch of 30 to be flowered, plus extras for insurance. 

If you can get clones very cheaply (or you're independently wealthy ), you could buy in enough to fill your mother tray and your tray #1. Would save you several (4-6) weeks over buying only one. Don't know what's practical for you.



Kuji said:


> Can this method be expanded with more plants and more stages of growth to get a harvest every week?


Sure. You COULD do cuttings every DAY and have cuttings ready to go in also daily, with plants coming out for harvest every day, too! 

I designed the 2-week rotation system to break up the job of harvesting. You should have seen me before I reorganised things, trying to manicure 4 trays of plants _and_ have 4 trays worth of clones ready to go in- *all at once*, every 8 weeks. Disaster. Could not finish manicuring all the plants before they would go to mould, as there was no room in the op for both plants just finished flowering and new plants. Air in my op is humidity controlled and has plenty of ventilation through-flow, but the area where I do the manicuring work is not so fortunate- and speeds up mould if the plants have to be there for any appreciable amt of time before I can finish the trimming work. Having 92 clones ready all at once also required more mother plants than I keep now.


----------



## insanestang4life (Mar 31, 2008)

I am going to try this even though I havent been doing any of this in years. Could you guys look at the picture I am attaching and tell me what you think! I will be using 3x3 trays for # 1-4 . My moms will be in a box 2ft 6 in x 2ft 6inx 6ft 9in tall with a flood and drain setup that is 2ftx2ft. My clones will be in a box 2ft 6in x 1ft 8in x 2ft tall this drawing is too scale 1 square= 2 in. The clone box will be on tracks mounted to the wall so i can slide it out in the open and open it then when i am done slide it back next to the moms out of the way! The 3x3 trays will be a standard flood and drain setup! Hopefully with one 1000 w light in air cooled tube, with the batwing setup this will cover two of the 3x3 trays, another 1000 w light in air cooled tube, with batwing setup for other 2 3x3 trays. When I hang these lights how far should they be from the plants and how do you make yours cover two trays when the plants in the two trays are different heighs? I should center the light between tray #1 and #2 right and the same for #3 and #4! For my moms they will have an air cooled 400w setup. For the clones I will have a heat mat with a 2ft four lamp t5 setup! Cany anyone give me any hints or see anything that will be wrong with this setup? This room is in a basement and stays a constant 65 degrees so I am going to wait on the exhaust/scrubber and intake fans becuase i wanna see what heat does in here first when I do my test runs for a wk or so! Also, I think you said your pots are 175 mm wouldnt that be a 6" pot not 8" because I dont see how you are fitting 23 8" pots in your tray that is smaller than 3x3? Sorry for all the confusions just trying to get this all streight and have some other people look at it with another eye to help fix any problems before I go and drop this kinda money on equipment. The room is also covered with B/w Poly film except the floor but its painted flat white and is concrete!


----------



## insanestang4life (Mar 31, 2008)

AL, also on the first page you said that you use a 400w hps for your mother isnt that light designed for budding why do you use that versus a 400w mh? Just curious


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 31, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> AL, also on the first page you said that you use a 400w hps for your mother isnt that light designed for budding why do you use that versus a 400w mh? Just curious


 
READ ABOUT 107 MORE PAGES AND YOULL SEE.....CONVENIENCE AND ITS GOOD FOR HIS SITUATION


----------



## insanestang4life (Mar 31, 2008)

I have read all 116 pages in one sitting talk about a lot of information! I was just trying to figure out why he is using it? I know its convenient for his situation I am just wandering why? But, thanks for the ponter to page 107 LOL


----------



## bigal10 (Mar 31, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> I have read all 116 pages in one sitting talk about a lot of information! I was just trying to figure out why he is using it? I know its convenient for his situation I am just wandering why? But, thanks for the ponter to page 107 LOL


he likes to get thicker stems for his clones. By having the hps it allows his stems to be thicker than they would be with mh set up.


----------



## insanestang4life (Mar 31, 2008)

Thanks alot bigal!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm composing a reply to stang's many queries now, in between manicuring- a job I hate, but comes first, sorry.

stang should be the very LAST person accused of not reading the thread- I read his notes and said to myself, 'here's a fella who has read this whole thing from top to bottom- and _*gets*_ it.'

cu in a few hours, if not tomorrow.


----------



## cmak40 (Mar 31, 2008)

i didnt say he DIDNT read it but if he did the answer to his question was answered just not to long ago, not exactly on page 107 but in that range somewhere hard to remember where certain info is at sometimes. 

whats the deal on telling sex in veg tho al, i have 13 plants on 24hr lite from seed and from las nite when i talked to you to today one has sacs all over it. they are 32 days old from germ and this is the only one showing any signs of sex??


----------



## Enigma (Mar 31, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i didnt say he DIDNT read it but if he did the answer to his question was answered just not to long ago, not exactly on page 107 but in that range somewhere hard to remember where certain info is at sometimes.
> 
> whats the deal on telling sex in veg tho al, i have 13 plants on 24hr lite from seed and from las nite when i talked to you to today one has sacs all over it. they are 32 days old from germ and this is the only one showing any signs of sex??


From many references, longer lighting increases male percentages. 16/8 or 18/6 for veg.

I haven't tested this.. but it makes sense to me.

Stress = Male


----------



## insanestang4life (Mar 31, 2008)

I know you werent saying I hadnt read the whole thing. I probly just missed it because I literally sat here and have read this whole thing in one sitting. 




cmak40 said:


> i didnt say he DIDNT read it but if he did the answer to his question was answered just not to long ago, not exactly on page 107 but in that range somewhere hard to remember where certain info is at sometimes.
> 
> whats the deal on telling sex in veg tho al, i have 13 plants on 24hr lite from seed and from las nite when i talked to you to today one has sacs all over it. they are 32 days old from germ and this is the only one showing any signs of sex??


----------



## insanestang4life (Mar 31, 2008)

Hey AL B take your time I am in no hurry just get to me when you have a chance! And THANKS for the comments!


----------



## Enigma (Mar 31, 2008)

Hey Al,

A couple of pics of the new design... What do you think?


Picture #1: Revised 35 gal res; 1000w HPS; Cooltube; Wing; (61) 3" net pots.

Picture #2: Same as Picture #1, Model - 5a, with (2) 1000w HPS.

Picture #3: New! 45 gal res; Holds mothers & clones; 48" Quad T5's; 250w-400w HPS; Cooltube; Wing.

Picture #4: New! Process and flow diagram. The two rooms share the same fan to cool a 1000w HPS and a 250w-400w HPS.


What size fan do you think would be needed (150 CFM+)?

What size HPS to veg mums (8 mums; 400w)?



Enigma


----------



## Kuji (Mar 31, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> \
> 
> Sure. You COULD do cuttings every DAY and have cuttings ready to go in also daily, with plants coming out for harvest every day, too!


Oh man...



...


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 1, 2008)

hey al i contacted the fytocell rep and a no go for that in canada for a while he is trying to find a SECURE distributer, that being said would a perlit rockwool mix be good or should i go with just rockwool and 1 watering a day


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

folks, I'm gonna be tied up for a day or so. Just up to my ears in it, no biggie. Back soon.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 1, 2008)

lol we cant wait til our biggest problems are trimmin some herb...no worries man most are questions are general and we realize you have a life. and appreciate the time you do donate to the cause in here its much more knowledge based and comprehensive for beginners.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

stang, I do want to compliment you for your extraordinary effort in looking over this thread and comprehending it throughly- more than a bit difficult when the information comes at you a bit higgledy-piggledy as it does in a discussion forum. Not like there's a Table of Contents for all this. 

OK, let's cover your queries.



insanestang4life said:


> I am going to try this even though I havent been doing any of this in years. Could you guys look at the picture I am attaching and tell me what you think! I will be using 3x3 trays for # 1-4 . My moms will be in a box 2ft 6 in x 2ft 6inx 6ft 9in tall with a flood and drain setup that is 2ftx2ft. My clones will be in a box 2ft 6in x 1ft 8in x 2ft tall this drawing is too scale 1 square= 2 in.


Looks great!



> The clone box will be on tracks mounted to the wall so i can slide it out in the open and open it then when i am done slide it back next to the moms out of the way!


ooh, clever.  



> The 3x3 trays will be a standard flood and drain setup! Hopefully with one 1000 w light in air cooled tube, with the batwing setup this will cover two of the 3x3 trays, another 1000 w light in air cooled tube, with batwing setup for other 2 3x3 trays. When I hang these lights how far should they be from the plants and how do you make yours cover two trays when the plants in the two trays are different heighs?


A 1000 in a cooltube can be as close as 300-350mm from the plant tops, perhaps even closer- that's a conservative estimate.

The plants in trays 3 & 4 are all usually close to the same height, so the disparity isn't great there, but as you correctly point out, plants in tray #1 are 'vertically challenged' compared to those in tray 2, certainly come the day when tray 2 is in week 4- they are growing as much as 25mm/day up til the end of wk 4. You're right in noting that the cooltube can't come down to 300mm over the tray 1 plants while maintaining sufficient clearance over the tray 2 plants. 

I don't mind the disparity in height for the tray1 (newly introduced to 2 wks) plants. These plants have just come out of the clonebox where they have been under fluoros for the last 12-14 days. They don't develop much new leaf foliage in the clonebox, but what is grown in that time will be acclimated to fluoro light. A bit of extra spacing over the tray 1 plants for the first 7-10 days, when they begin to catch up with the height of the tray 2 plants, is just fine. This 'sun hardens' the new growth and prevents any 'sunburn' of the tips of the youngest plants 



> I should center the light between tray #1 and #2 right and the same for #3 and #4!


Yep. 



> For my moms they will have an air cooled 400w setup.


Will work like a champ, does for me. 



> For the clones I will have a heat mat with a 2ft four lamp t5 setup!


I don't think I'd opt for the T5s. Clones just don't need to be pounded with light. All they need is to be convinced it is daylight for 18+H/day. Go for some less expensive, regular 24" tube fluoros or CFLs. Replacement ordinary tubes/CFLs will be more readily available, probably even at your local grocery. Your clones will thank you for the heat mat by rapidly setting root.



> Cany anyone give me any hints or see anything that will be wrong with this setup?


nothing wrong so far!



> This room is in a basement and stays a constant 65 degrees so I am going to wait on the exhaust/scrubber and intake fans becuase i wanna see what heat does in here first when I do my test runs for a wk or so!


Yep, do your testing, but I think you'll find that a powered intake, even with (a) modest axial blower(s) will bring the thruflow closer to the actual CFM rating of the exhaust blower, which is rated with its air intake at atmospheric pressure. When the exhaust blower has both to fight to push its air column out the back side as well as work against a restriction in the intake, the actual CFM rate will fall off quickly, even with a centrif blower in the main exhaust position. Powered intake also makes it a lot easier to light-trap the intake as the duct size will be much smaller. Passive intake annuli have to be about 2x the area of your exhaust duct. 



> Also, I think you said your pots are 175 mm wouldnt that be a 6" pot not 8" because I dont see how you are fitting 23 8" pots in your tray that is smaller than 3x3?


OK, now you've forced me to whip out my tape measure.  I grew up with feet & inches but have not had to use the old imperial figures much for the last dozen years or so. I have a very special hatred for fractional inches, as do many folks who grew up in the early days of pocket calculators. You'll note that I use metric figs as much as possible these days. Converting every figure I use when writing a post is a bit onerous, but when someone has asked me something quantified in imperial units, I try to respond in those units as well. I am not so good at doing the conversions on the fly, but I do my best. 

The pots are not cylinders, rather slightly conical. The pots are labelled "175mm" (about 6.9"). Turns out this measurement is the OD of the top of the pots, inclusive of a rim lip. The bottoms of the pots are about 130mm dia. I cited the pot size as 8" in the lead post in this thread because the top dia to my eye looked like about 8" but in fact is about 1.1" smaller than that. You can fit as many as 24 of these pots into the 820mm^2 trays but they can't sit with all their bases flat on the trays unless there's only 22 or 23. With 24, they're a bit wedged in.



> Sorry for all the confusions just trying to get this all streight and have some other people look at it with another eye to help fix any problems before I go and drop this kinda money on equipment. The room is also covered with B/w Poly film except the floor but its painted flat white and is concrete!


Sounds like a great space for a grow op.  A durable floor surface is very convenient- the only thing better is a durable floor with a floor drain. 

From your dwgs (great stuff, thanks ), all looks in order.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> AL, also on the first page you said that you use a 400w hps for your mother isnt that light designed for budding why do you use that versus a 400w mh? Just curious


Someone mentioned that I use the HPS for the stem thickness- while partly true, I'd get thick stems from MH, too. I keep using the HPS because it _also_ produces elongated plants compared to MH. This works out to my advantage as I cut very tall clones. I started out using the 400HPS because it was surplus at the time, formerly used for flowering in an early incarnation of the op. 

Vegging with HPS worked great (for my application) so I never bothered with MH until sometime last year, when I picked up a "400" (actually 360W) MH conversion lamp (on special, yay!) and ran it over the mums for a month or so. The result was that the mums only recovered about 2/3 the height and veg mass in the scant 14 days they have to regrow after a pass of cuttings, compared to the ordinary (non-blue enhanced) 400HPS. I went back to the HPS over the mums and the MH conversion lamp sits on the shelf.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *cmak40*
> whats the deal on telling sex in veg tho al, i have 13 plants on 24hr lite from seed and from las nite when i talked to you to today one has sacs all over it. they are 32 days old from germ and this is the only one showing any signs of sex??[/i]


Plants usually require about 6-8 weeks under veg cycle light from seed before they will begin to show preflowers at the nodes. 32 days is only a bit over 4 weeks. 



Enigma said:


> From many references, longer lighting increases male percentages. 16/8 or 18/6 for veg.
> 
> I haven't tested this.. but it makes sense to me.
> 
> Stress = Male


That's a hypothesis that probably should be tested before placing a lot of faith in it. While I agree that stressing a plant is never good, I'm not so sure 24/0 light is particularly stressful nor that stress can induce a seedling to come up male. On average, you'll get 50% males from seed. *You* might think that males are a bad thing and also that stress is a bad thing- but they are not necessarily related. The cannabis plant probably doesn't think making male plants is so bad, that's just part of its job of reproduction. 

When it comes down to testing hypotheses like this, the motivation to do so can be fairly limited by the actual utility of what you're trying to prove. In my case, I have enough on my plate just running the op productively- I don't really have time to do comprehensive investigations of phenomenae that in the end won't increase the output of my op.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> A couple of pics of the new design... What do you think?


Good stuff. 




> What size fan do you think would be needed (150 CFM+)?


Divide the room air volume by 3, i.e. a 500 cu ft room will need 166CFM thruflow. That's your bare minimum volumetric capacity for the combination of the exhaust and intake and really only a useful figure when using cooltubes. 

I have a 500cu ft flowering area and have a 600CFM exhaust blower and a couple of axial intake fans helping make things more efficient. Even that wind-tunnelish volumetric capacity was not enough to contain the room airmass temps to my desired range (24-26C) all year round with 2kW of HPS light. The 1000s were not in cooltubes at the time I selected the exhaust blower. If I were planning it over again with cooltubes from the get-go, I would have selected a 200mm centrif (220L/sec, 466 CFM) for the main exhaust blower. The cooltubes are highly effective at keeping lamp heat from warming the room's airmass and I could do with a lot less exhaust fan power.



> What size HPS to veg mums (8 mums; 400w)?


Of course, I use a 400 over 10 plants in a roughly 300 x 700mm tray, but they are being fairly well pounded with light. I THINK I could get by with a 250 but have not tried it to know what the character of the growth would be. The safe bet is to use a 400. 



cmak40 said:


> hey al i contacted the fytocell rep and a no go for that in canada for a while he is trying to find a SECURE distributer, that being said would a perlit rockwool mix be good or should i go with just rockwool and 1 watering a day


A _secure_ distributor? It's grow media, not gold bars! 

A mix of perlite and rockwool _sounds_ like it would overcome the very high water holding capacity of RW floc. The way to be sure is to check how much water weight is lost in a 24 hour period. I like to see about half of the water weight lost before watering again. If you use pots of only RW floc, yes, flood 1x/day at lights-on for just long enough to flood the trays to about 50mm deep.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 1, 2008)

Thanks again AL B you are the man. Didnt mean for you to have to go and whip out the tape measure but I appreciate it.... I couldnt figure how it was possible to fit those 8" pots in there but now I got it all figured out. Thanks again


----------



## southfloridasean (Apr 1, 2008)

Yo Al you need yo write a BOOK. Info galore. I dont see this thread disappearing anytime soon.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> 
> Divide the room air volume by 3, i.e. a 500 cu ft room will need 166CFM thruflow. That's your bare minimum volumetric capacity for the combination of the exhaust and intake and really only a useful figure when using cooltubes.
> ...


on the air circ note. i have a 440cfm inline that i was gonna use in this order for exhaust

410cfm Carbon filter-->cooltubed 600-->cooltubed 1000-->cooltubed 400-->440cfm fan-->exhaust, now that ive read what u have here should i throw in a 190 cfm fan for intake to help the load(was gonna be passive but i can get the fan cheap)

also would a 400 hps cover 14-16 moms well and good?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> on the air circ note. i have a 440cfm inline that i was gonna use in this order for exhaust
> 
> 410cfm Carbon filter-->cooltubed 600-->cooltubed 1000-->cooltubed 400-->440cfm fan-->exhaust, now that ive read what u have here should i throw in a 190 cfm fan for intake to help the load(was gonna be passive but i can get the fan cheap)


Axials are not very good at pushing air into a high static pressure caused by obstructions, like a filter. Air pressure just leaks backward between the axial fan's blades when the limit is reached. The blades 'stall' like an airplane wing and don't move much air. Thus the CFM ratings of an axial pushing into a carbon filter simply are not reliable. You might be getting 10-20% of the rated flow. If there's a carbon filter in the duct, you'll want to get a centrif blower. 

Intake fans on the other hand, when paired with a centrif exhaust blower, are just plain loafing. They can be dirt-common hardware store 'duct fan' axials, 150mm is common. The intake capacity rating should be about 80-90% of the exhaust blower rating to keep the room at negative pressure. This way, any small gaps or air leaks become air inlets. If the room were at positive pressure, they would be exhausts, allowing air out of the room without going through the carbon filter. If the room is at slightly negative pressure, all air leaving the grow will go through your carbon filter. For low cost, use a pair of smaller, cheap axials whose added CFM ratings are about 80-90% the CFM of the exhaust blower. 



> also would a 400 hps cover 14-16 moms well and good?


Yes, but I have my suspicions that's close to the upper limit. You must be planning to take a LOT of cuttings.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

southfloridasean said:


> Yo Al you need yo write a BOOK. Info galore. I dont see this thread disappearing anytime soon.


heh, thanks. 

If this thread doesn't die, no one would buy the book.


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Apr 1, 2008)

I got the title:

"Grow Up Fuct: The Al B. Fuct Way"


Trademarked, double stamped.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 1, 2008)

_Fuct Growing with Al B. _


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 1, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> _Fuct Growing with Al B. _


lol, it has a nice ring to it  i like it 



hey al! waz up bro?

im not sure if this was asked and answered yet, but have you thought about using perlite for a E&F medium? (im sure youve thought about it)

also, if you did, aprox how often do you think you would run your ebb cycles? 

so just the pros and cons if you will....

your great al 

thanks and


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

PlasmaRadio said:


> I got the title:
> 
> "Grow Up Fuct: The Al B. Fuct Way"





Maccabee said:


> _Fuct Growing with Al B. _


I'm waiting for the TV show featuring a bumbling secret marijuana growing agent-

*'Get Fuct!'*



You can rest _well and truly_ assured that if I ever published a book- I'd pick a new _nom de plume_. 



We TaRdED said:


> lol, it has a nice ring to it  i like it
> 
> 
> hey al! waz up bro?
> ...


I didn't try perlite early on because the stuff is not terribly absorbent, escapes pot drain holes, makes a heck of a mess if spilled and tends to float. The only reason Fytocell (which also floats, makes a heck of a mess when spilled and falls out of drain holes) is any better is because it is by comparison much more absorbent than perlite. 

Hard to say how often I'd flood perlite. I'd weigh a dry pot of perlite, wet it, let it drain, then put it in the op and see how long it takes to lose half its water weight. There's the watering interval for young plants, where more water is lost from the pot due to evaporation than consumption by the plant. By abt wk 3-4 of flowering, more frequent flooding will probably be needed.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Divide the room air volume by 3, i.e. a 500 cu ft room will need 166CFM thruflow. That's your bare minimum volumetric capacity for the combination of the exhaust and intake and really only a useful figure when using cooltubes.
> 
> I have a 500cu ft flowering area and have a 600CFM exhaust blower and a couple of axial intake fans helping make things more efficient. Even that wind-tunnelish volumetric capacity was not enough to contain the room airmass temps to my desired range (24-26C) all year round with 2kW of HPS light. The 1000s were not in cooltubes at the time I selected the exhaust blower. If I were planning it over again with cooltubes from the get-go, I would have selected a 200mm centrif (220L/sec, 466 CFM) for the main exhaust blower. The cooltubes are highly effective at keeping lamp heat from warming the room's airmass and I could do with a lot less exhaust fan power.
> 
> Of course, I use a 400 over 10 plants in a roughly 300 x 700mm tray, but they are being fairly well pounded with light. I THINK I could get by with a 250 but have not tried it to know what the character of the growth would be. The safe bet is to use a 400.


I've got the air exchange for the room. I'm wondering about the fans for the cool tubes. Something to cool a 400w and a 1000w in that configuration.

I figured that might be the best bet.. but the 600w looks great.. and if the cool tubes are everything they are cracked up to be they could go well in such a small space.. then again the 400w sounds more practical for the space.

Thanks as always!



Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2008)

Enigma said:


> I've got the air exchange for the room. I'm wondering about the fans for the cool tubes. Something to cool a 400w and a 1000w in that configuration.


Oh, OK!

Most any 150mm axial will do. I use an Allvent A60 to run 2x 1000HPS in the flowering area's cooltubes, which as you know are fitted in series. The A60 is rated 192CFM. The straighter the duct and the more airflow, the better the cooltubes will work, but it's all good with 192CFM for 2kW.

It occurs to me that you may not be able to run your veg & flower cooltubes in series. Light would conduct down the cooltube from the 400 and into the flowering area during lights off. You may have to use a wye and push air through the two tubes in parallel, or use 2 separate 150mm blowers and make the systems totally independent to assure light isolation from the flowering plants during their nighttime.



> I figured that might be the best bet.. but the 600w looks great.. and if the cool tubes are everything they are cracked up to be they could go well in such a small space.. then again the 400w sounds more practical for the space.


Yeah, I don't think you'll really need a 600 for that job. Nice light and all but really a bit of overkill for this particular application.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Oh, OK!
> 
> make the systems totally independent to assure light isolation from the flowering plants during their nighttime.


yup, you definitely don't want stray light into your flowering room..

if need be, you can think about using BLACK stove pipe at a 90 degree bend. 
this might attenuate it enough.
or you could use two 90's to eliminate it completely- no doubt!!!! in like an S shape. if you know what i mean.... this will attenuate your cfm's a little though. 

umm not to offend anyone but to try and further my point on the "S" shape, it might be better to think of it as half of the nazi symbol. (maybe there are better analogies but thats the first thing that came to my head)

peace


----------



## Enigma (Apr 1, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It occurs to me that you may not be able to run your veg & flower cooltubes in series. Light would conduct down the cooltube from the 400 and into the flowering area during lights off. You may have to use a wye and push air through the two tubes in parallel, or use 2 separate 150mm blowers and make the systems totally independent to assure light isolation from the flowering plants during their nighttime.


 
There are about 6 bends from the 400w to the 1000w. Some are 90 degrees or more acute.

I think that would be enough...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

I hope that's enough. 

As mentioned, black duct (or alu type painted black inside) might help prevent back conduction. Bends between the two lamps will help trap light... but they will impede airflow. If there's several 90s, it may call for a centrif blower. The cost of a 150mm centrif would easily exceed the cost of _two_ 150mm axials. If there's enough obstruction to cause problems, the surfaces of the cooltubes will get hot and allow heat to transfer into the room's airmass. If that's the case, it will be most practical and cost effective to split the systems and use two 150mm blowers.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

As mentioned last week, I did get a sulfur 'burner' to address the powdery mildew. Spraying isn't keeping it down. 



It's a stainless can with a perhaps 50-100W heating element and a steel cup for powdered sulfur. 



Does not burn but rather melts and evaporates powdered sulfur (avail from garden aisle in the local megahardware) to combat powdery mildew. 

Absolutely NO instructions included... not so much as a power rating for the heating element. 

Did a little quick research and found a suggestion to start at 10mins/day and back down if tip burn occurs. Started off with about 25g of sulfur in the cup; it melted that amount with no trouble. Will have to keep an eye on it to see how much it will use. The powdered sulfur was cheap, $5 for 500g.

Trying it initially running on a timer for 10 mins/day, with the runtime in the middle of the dark cycle to assure the main exhaust blower is not running when the 'burner' is on. If I see tip burn, I'll back it down to 7-8.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 2, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Axials are not very good at pushing air into a high static pressure caused by obstructions, like a filter. Air pressure just leaks backward between the axial fan's blades when the limit is reached. The blades 'stall' like an airplane wing and don't move much air. Thus the CFM ratings of an axial pushing into a carbon filter simply are not reliable. You might be getting 10-20% of the rated flow. If there's a carbon filter in the duct, you'll want to get a centrif blower.
> 
> Intake fans on the other hand, when paired with a centrif exhaust blower, are just plain loafing. They can be dirt-common hardware store 'duct fan' axials, 150mm is common. The intake capacity rating should be about 80-90% of the exhaust blower rating to keep the room at negative pressure. This way, any small gaps or air leaks become air inlets. If the room were at positive pressure, they would be exhausts, allowing air out of the room without going through the carbon filter. If the room is at slightly negative pressure, all air leaving the grow will go through your carbon filter. For low cost, use a pair of smaller, cheap axials whose added CFM ratings are about 80-90% the CFM of the exhaust blower.
> 
> ...


i think you misunderstood, hydroponic supplies and equipment for hydroponic grow systems : Canadian Wholesale Hydroponics. 1 (877) 226-4769 the 6" can fan will be the exhaust fan. on it will be 3 cool tubes and a filter, the duct and cooltubes will be in a straight run to keep the cfm up and not lose and power or minimal anyway. it is 440 cfm with about a 14 foot run(STRAIGHT) with a 400 cfm filter on the other end. 

for intake i have a hole to the upstairs which will be intake it is about6x10 and was gonna be passive. instead i was gonna throw in a 190 cfm squirrel cage to boost air in.

are you saying nix the squirrel cage to help keep the pressure negative? or should i use the squirrel cage? i do plan on sealing the room AIR TIGHT if possible. im lucky enuf to build from scratch in a basement so i can frame the room and white plastic and tuck tape the whole room.


for cuttings, ya i have the setup ive been referring to for the most part but im also setting up a bigger op with a friend with 4 4x4 tables for flowering area so that will be about 50-60 cuttings every 2 weeks. dont want to take more than 6 a plant really so 14 plants gives me up to 80 cuttings for new and mom replacement and what not.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i think you misunderstood, hydroponic supplies and equipment for hydroponic grow systems : Canadian Wholesale Hydroponics. 1 (877) 226-4769 the 6" can fan will be the exhaust fan. on it will be 3 cool tubes and a filter, the duct and cooltubes will be in a straight run to keep the cfm up and not lose and power or minimal anyway. it is 440 cfm with about a 14 foot run(STRAIGHT) with a 400 cfm filter on the other end.


...ok- I'll have one more go at it. Did the best I could with your query phrased as it was. 

The 'can fan' is an axial and should not be used with a carbon filter. It may be rated 1023CFM but I'd be surprised if it delivered more than 20% of that figure with a carbon filter inline. It is also 10" (255mm) dia, about 100mm larger than the dia of most cooltubes. Use a 150mm axial on the cooltubes, with no filter and a closed air path.

Your cooltube blower must be independent of the room's main exhaust blower. You can not use a thermostat on the blower driving the cooltubes. It must run at all times during lights-on, +15min after shutoff to cool down the cooltubes before stopping airflow. The effect of trying to use the cooltube blower as the main exhaust will be poor regulation of the room's airmass temp. Room air temp will be intake air temp plus about 2-3C. 

The cooltubes should run on a closed air circuit, sourcing and dumping air outside the room's airmass. If this is done, the cooltube air will not require scent treatment. 

With separate cooltube and main exhaust blowers, it's easy to expect the room will stay at your 25C setpoint +/- 1C (or better).



> are you saying nix the squirrel cage to help keep the pressure negative? or should i use the squirrel cage? i do plan on sealing the room AIR TIGHT if possible. im lucky enuf to build from scratch in a basement so i can frame the room and white plastic and tuck tape the whole room.


First, you need to rework the plan so you have separate cooltube and main exhaust blowers. Then you can set about selecting an intake blower.

Duct tape these days just ain't what it used to be. If you have a line on top quality duct tape, the way it USED to be made, where its main purpose was to hold HVAC ducting together, it may work OK. Otherwise, if it's the new style stuff, it will come off in just a few weeks when exposed to warm air and humidity. 

I hang panda film by cutting 6-8" lengths of scrap wood and running a couple of screws through it, pinching the panda film. If I have to join panels of panda film, I glue them with silicone sealant and duct tape them as needed to hold things in place until the silicone sets up. The duct tape will come off in short order, but when the silicone dries, it's all good.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

I like metal repair tape and gaffer's tape these days. Real EB-Green is great if you can find it. 

3M makes some useful specialty tapes:

Maintenance > Utility Tapes - GlobalIndustrial.com


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

Gratuitous op shot of the day. 



Widest shot I can get without a fish-eye lens.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> I like metal repair tape and gaffer's tape these days. Real EB-Green is great if you can find it.


Thanks for that, Mac. Great research as usual.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 2, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Gratuitous op shot of the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Widest shot I can get without a fish-eye lens.


nice shot al  

thats the fullest one i have seen yet 

ty my aussie friend


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

yep, the camera was up over my head, jammed into the upper corner of the room. The mother plants are in a subdivided area just to the left.



Like the inverted fans? Just removed the crossbar stand and screwed their bases to a ceiling joist. Don't have to trip over the fan stands anymore.  They have been running inverted for about 8 weeks now, all good. I did disassemble the fans and greased up their oscillation mechanisms and pivot axles before I put them up.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 2, 2008)

Thats an awesome idea with the fans!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

oh yeah stang, I was going to mention to you that you should work in some clearance for circ fans on the far ends of your pairs of trays. The 'hanging from the ceiling' trick will save you a bit of space but you still have to have room to swing the fans without taking up the space above the trays- plants need that space. 

I tried some compact tower fans but they did not like being run inverted. Their osc mechanisms quit after a month or so. I had to scoot my trays away from the wall on the far end to make room for some common $14, 40cm osc circ fans, but not as much as if the fans were standing on the floor. The tower fans were twice the price and I know I have to replace osc circ fans yearly, so I just made room for them and bought in a stock of about 20. Sucks that I didn't design in enough space from the get-go for the cheap traditional type fans. Hopefully you can catch this before you start setting up, unlike me.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

Lasko makes a 16" 3-speed wall-mount oscillating fan--I think it's about $35 or 40. 
Mounts closer to the wall than you could an inverted standard fan, good if space is really a premium for you.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

Eagle eyes will note a pair of 1000HPS ballasts in the upper left. I have four 1000 ballasts- two are mounted outside the room to keep their heat outside of the room's airmass in summer. Pictured are the winter ballasts. I need all the heat I can get when the intake air in winter drops to 12C. Moving the cabling beats hell out of moving these ballasts- these fuckers are HEAVY, 25kg easy.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Lasko makes a 16" 3-speed wall-mount oscillating fan--I think it's about $35 or 40.
> Mounts closer to the wall than you could an inverted standard fan, good if space is really a premium for you.


Thanks for that, Mac. 

I've seen box fans which accomplish oscillation by way of a disc-shaped rotating vane on the front of the unit. The body of the fan doesn't move- only the vane rotates. These are only about 100mm thick and can be placed within about 50mm of the wall. Unfortunately, they're too pricey for yearly replacement. Cheapest ones I could find locally were close to $50.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

Well and truly off-topic, but while I have your attention... check out this video of the April Fools' Day raids on Nimbin.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks for that, Mac.
> 
> I've seen box fans which accomplish oscillation by way of a disc-shaped rotating vane on the front of the unit. The body of the fan doesn't move- only the vane rotates. These are only about 100mm thick and can be placed within about 50mm of the wall. Unfortunately, they're too pricey for yearly replacement. Cheapest ones I could find locally were close to $50.


Interesting! Found this:

Soleus FB1-30-20 12" Box Fan with Rotating Grill
$24

Could be secured (screws through feet?) to a shelf, ceiling or wall sideways for a fairly easy wall mount I think I think.

They have a bunch of cheap fans, actually. Their soft blade fan (8", $16) affords interesting space saving possibilities too.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 2, 2008)

two questions for ya al...

i modded a trash can on wheels for a res. i put a drain on her and hose...but duh! the hose doesnt curve downwards.... what pump can i put in there? i remember you mentioning before in your drain threads. would i use the pumps for flood and drain settings? and btw...what is the 'regular' name in brandname stores like walmart, petsmart, lowes, hd instead of the notorious hydro names? wouldnt i just put the pump at the bottom, turn the pump on when i want to use my hose? as far as the pump....is there any pump that can use side pumping like instead of having the tube upwards? i already cut the drain at the bottom of the trash can. fucking A!!! wish i would put the drain or hole up like midway of the trash can so i could route the hose from the pump to the hole..... wonder what kinda fucking tee's imma have to get to make it work...any ideas?

second... IYO, what is the best way to aerate? i hear all this shit about bubblecurtains, airstones, bubblestones, air diffusers....air pumps with air lines running thru the res....what is your opinion on the best and way?


----------



## beach36 (Apr 2, 2008)

Gday Al,

Really enjoy your tutorials mate, much obliged. Seen them on OS to, well done.

I live fairly close to Nimbin, what an overkill!  I think the problem there lately is a lot of young blokes hassling tourists, fighting, and selling stuff heavier than weed. Perhaps they should of done their raid later in the day and targeted those clowns rather than the 'Embassy' and Museum, dorks.

Keep up the good work Al.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 2, 2008)

wow I don't keep up with the thread for one day, and come back to these new additions. Doing an incredible job with the grow and the thread Al.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 2, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> fucking A!!! wish i would put the drain or hole up like midway of the trash can so i could route the hose from the pump to the hole..... wonder what kinda fucking tee's imma have to get to make it work...any ideas?
> 
> second... IYO, what is the best way to aerate? i heard al talk about using bubble curtains.. is that what you recommend al? bubblecurtains


whats good LB?

Pond and Filter Tank Bulkhead Fitting - 2" - eBay (item 360039047121 end time May-01-08 15:26:27 PDT)

if you want to put a line midway in the trash can you might want to look into getting a bulkhead..

ive never used one, but i think thats what i would use for that job... 

just my 2 pennies..


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 2, 2008)

HUH???? you lost me...


i dont think you're following me


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Interesting! Found this:
> 
> Soleus FB1-30-20 12" Box Fan with Rotating Grill
> $24


Yep, them's the bananas!

Unfortunately, that $24 fan would cost double that to ship to Australia. 



LoudBlunts said:


> two questions for ya al...
> 
> i modded a trash can on wheels for a res. i put a drain on her and hose...but duh! the hose doesnt curve downwards....
> [...]
> any ideas?


Yep, permanently block the drain hole you put in the bin. Drain the tank with the pump.







Use a couple valves to make tank dumps easy. 





> second... IYO, what is the best way to aerate? i hear all this shit about bubblecurtains, airstones, bubblestones, air diffusers....air pumps with air lines running thru the res....what is your opinion on the best and way?


Plain ol aquarium air pump and a bubble curtain. Get the sort with a woven stainless tube inside (weights them down to keep them from floating) and a polyfoam outer layer. The glued or compressed sand or glass bead sort of air stones just disintegrate into a pile of sand or beads in a few weeks.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 2, 2008)

what kinda pump do i get al?

also...can the pump be laid on its side?


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

Get a submersible pump, either a high end pond pump or a low end utility pump. 

AbsoluteHome [Pumps page]

Simer GeyserÂ® 1/6 HP Thermoplastic Utility Pump - 2305 : AbsoluteHome ($52)
You can go fancier if you want, but this should work. Home Depot etc. should have something comparable in stock.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 2, 2008)

thank you much. do i need to stand it up? or can i lay it on its side?


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> thank you much. do i need to stand it up? or can i lay it on its side?


The pond pumps are usually designed lower and wider, the inlet is on the side. 

The utility pumps are like smaller sump pumps, basically, the water enters the bottom so they are meant to stand up. 

If you really want to you can use an external inline pump--look at the "transfer pumps" on the site I linked. It's much more of a hassle though, unless you have a reason for doing it that way.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 2, 2008)

i dunno where your at lb but at canadian tire (in canada obviously) and most other stores that change with season have pond pumps. i got an 80gph for the mom tray for $13 and 4 130 gph for $25 a piece=$113+tax not a bad deal gonna grab 2 extras for back up.

as for your hole at the bottom of your res you could use it as your overflow back and just put a new hole up high for the pump in.

i grabbed an aquarium air pump and just put a 4way split on it for the res with a curtain in each one


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> what kinda pump do i get al?
> 
> also...can the pump be laid on its side?


Like others have said, your garden variety submersible centrifugal aquarium pump. When the pump shuts off, water drains backward through it. For this reason, only centrif pumps can be used, but that's what 99.9% of the cheapo aquarium pumps are anyway. 

We discussed recently the phenomenon of air getting sucked down the fill line to the pump when the tray is draining. This can cause an air bubble to be trapped in the centrif pump's chamber. It will sit there and cavitate but will pump no water. I put some screens in my fill fittings to try to stop the problem- doesn't work, even with 3 stacked. Took the screens out. 

The problem of trapped air is made much worse when the pump is laid on its side. The pump outlet must face upward and the hose to it should be vertical at all points. A loop or bend would trap air. The hose should not be any longer than needed to get to the pump sitting upright on the bottom of the tank, like in my dwg with the valves as above.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 2, 2008)

I am lucky because I sterilized the room realy good today with bleach and I have about 1 foot I can spare on each end of tables so hopefully that will be enough space for fans! Do you use two fans one on each end or one in each corner? Thanks





Al B. Fuct said:


> oh yeah stang, I was going to mention to you that you should work in some clearance for circ fans on the far ends of your pairs of trays. The 'hanging from the ceiling' trick will save you a bit of space but you still have to have room to swing the fans without taking up the space above the trays- plants need that space.
> 
> I tried some compact tower fans but they did not like being run inverted. Their osc mechanisms quit after a month or so. I had to scoot my trays away from the wall on the far end to make room for some common $14, 40cm osc circ fans, but not as much as if the fans were standing on the floor. The tower fans were twice the price and I know I have to replace osc circ fans yearly, so I just made room for them and bought in a stock of about 20. Sucks that I didn't design in enough space from the get-go for the cheap traditional type fans. Hopefully you can catch this before you start setting up, unlike me.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 2, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> I am lucky because I sterilized the room realy good today with bleach


Smart cookie. 



> and I have about 1 foot I can spare on each end of tables so hopefully that will be enough space for fans!


That'll be just enough. 



> Do you use two fans one on each end or one in each corner?


I have one fan in each corner.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 2, 2008)

just got back from the store....


got one of those one with the rotating output....pretty sweet. nice priced too!!!


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

Just a note, you could use a different kind of pump if you wanted to plumb a separate return using a tee and some one-way valves. However, this is not as simple as it might sound (typically you have to use electronically controlled valves to get it to work well) so you would want to have a good reason to introduce this additional complexity to your setup.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 2, 2008)

HUH???!?!?!

i just needed a way to fight gravity! i need water to flow thru the tubing, even it the tube was pointing upwards! i modded a trash can for when im ready to dump and change the res...... the trash can has wheels my res doesnt... water is hard on the back!!!!! 

so i just put a drain spout on a trash can with wheels!!!


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

I didn't get that Loud. Try again? If you mean that you're relying on the pressure of standing water in the trash can to force water out the drain @ the bottom and up to where your plants are you should keep in mind that the pressure will fall quickly as the water is forced out. 

You pretty much have to have a pump, unless you want to use an elevated feeder bucket and a lower reservoir. In that setup you can transfer the water back to the top by hand, but thats exactly what you want to avoid. It does give you more flexibility on pumps, as like with the separate return water does not need to travel back down the fill line. So you could use a sump pump. This configuration is kind of a kludge for e&f/f&d though, it's more intended for an always on NFT setup with water falling to the bottom and being recirculated to the top.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 2, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> just got back from the store....
> 
> 
> got one of those one with the rotating output....pretty sweet. nice priced too!!!



yea i got a pump bro...


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 2, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> yea i got a pump bro...


Oh, gotcha. I thought you were talking about a fan, read too quickly. 

So you should be good to go. Let us know how it all comes together for ya....


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 3, 2008)

u want pics?


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 3, 2008)

If you feel like it man, no rush. It's 11:30 and I'm toasted, drifting into the arms of dub....


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 3, 2008)

Pics are always nice


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Just a note, you could use a different kind of pump if you wanted to plumb a separate return using a tee and some one-way valves. However, this is not as simple as it might sound (typically you have to use electronically controlled valves to get it to work well) so you would want to have a good reason to introduce this additional complexity to your setup.


A REAL good reason. F&D is brilliant _mainly_ because it's soooooo simple. There's nothing to clog and just one thing to break- the pump. I keep a half dozen spares on hand.

Mac, I'm a BSEE but also a slacker- and your plan scares the crap out of both of me.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2008)

beach36 said:


> Gday Al,
> 
> Really enjoy your tutorials mate, much obliged. Seen them on OS to, well done.


I just love to spread the good word. 



> I live fairly close to Nimbin, what an overkill!


yeah, seriously gripes my ass to see the piggies, many WITHOUT NAME BADGES to avoid being held responsible for abuses, hassling poor old pensioners.


> I think the problem there lately is a lot of young blokes hassling tourists, fighting, and selling stuff heavier than weed. Perhaps they should of done their raid later in the day and targeted those clowns rather than the 'Embassy' and Museum, dorks.


Oh well, that's been true forever. A real small number of smackies and tweekers have been fucking up Nimbin for a long time and _*need*_ to have their ears clipped. However, the vast majority of Nimbies are good ol dope smokin' hippies, who are _*extremely dangerous*_... to choc chip bickies... but not much else.



> Keep up the good work Al.


thanks mon.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> A REAL good reason. F&D is brilliant _mainly_ because it's soooooo simple. There's nothing to clog and just one thing to break- the pump. I keep a half dozen spares on hand.
> 
> Mac, I'm a BSEE but also a slacker- and your plan scares the crap out of both of me.


Yeah, it's not for the faint of heart and I wouldn't really suggest it. For most applications in which that would be desirable it makes more sense to plumb a short vertical pipe to a horizontal loop with a vertical overflow at the return, and elevate the trays slightly above the loop on risers. The height of the overflow controls the level of the water in the trays. The water fills to that level when the pump is engaged and then begins to recirculate. When the pump is turned off, water empties back into the res through the return side of the loop (which is on a gentle slope.) 


I can do something in Sketch-Up if that doesn't make sense. It's sort of a bastardized "hydro-ron" setup, if you've ever seen one of those.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 3, 2008)

If I was gonna build this room and do a setup like yours, Which strain out of these would you guys use? I am leaning towards the Blue Mystic since it is Indica dominant, flowers in 7-9 weeks, likes indoor growing, good thc level 15-20%, average yield, and it looks awesome. But, here are the choices Blue Mystic, California Orange Bud, Ice, Arjans Haze #1, PPP or Pure Power Plant, AK47,Euforia,or White Widow? Let me know what you guys think and why! Thanks again all.....


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2008)

Mac, while I appreciate you applying some thought to this, if whatever you concoct is more complex than a pump and a straight length of hose, it's a complexity which will not in the end improve the function of the system. 

That the cheapo (and some not-so-cheapo) centrif pumps allow gravity backflow when not spinning obviates the need for complex valving, plumbing and whatnot. Active valving would be a critical failure point, particularly where acidic/corrosive/mineral-laden nute solns meet mechanical valves controlled by electronics in a high-humidity environment. 

Centrif aquarium water pumps were around long before flood hydro systems- and probably begat this particular hydro system design. The result is wot we in the biz call an 'elegant' engineering solution, one with high utility and reliability as well as elemental, irreducible mechanical simplicity. I would have loved to have been the person who noticed that these pumps will allow backflow- it must have been a seriously fun discovery moment.  Elegant solutions, through their simplicity in concert with their compliance with the design specification, are more than the sum of their parts. 

It's always a bit of fun to think about a better mousetrap, but in the case of F&D, we're already catching lots of the rotten little beggars with no more nor fewer parts than necessary. I'm honestly not sure what problem you're trying to solve.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 3, 2008)

This will probably help (see attachment). 

I do it this way as I don't actually use trays (although I should have.) I use cups that the net pots sit in (I may convert), on risers from the loop. The other reason I do it this way is that due to where the reservoir has to be a normal F&D wouldn't fully drain and the same trapped nutrient mixture would be reused over and over again as it would always be at the top of the water column pushed up by the pump. 

In short, I wanted recirculation when the pump was running, and needed to go "up and over" with the fill line--requiring a separate return.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> If I was gonna build this room and do a setup like yours, Which strain out of these would you guys use? I am leaning towards the Blue Mystic since it is Indica dominant
> [...]
> Let me know what you guys think and why! Thanks again all.....


Of those, I've only done Power Plant. Massive yielder, average potency, fair to good mould resistance. Good reliable commercial strain, not really smoker's esoterica, tho I'd grow it again.

The main characters I like from the view of a slacker doing the harvesting work in a production environment (as opposed to a hobby grower) is low leaf to bud ratio and fewer, larger buds per plant. That pretty much encompasses most indica dom strains, tho. 

Once upon a time, I had 7 strains running. In a SoG, uniformity of plants is a very desirable thing. I cut that down to Sweet Tooth #4 in the end as the best compromise of yield, mould resistance, ease of harvest and pleasant smoking characters. When in the same tray with other flavours, slower developing strains tend to develop even more slowly and sparsely when they have to compete for light with some monster strains that just plain take over. I swore my LUIs and Power Plants were going to kill and eat an AK47 and a White Widow or two when I was not properly paying attention.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 3, 2008)

LOL.... I would have liked to see the LUIS and PP's eat the other plants. Wonder if that would make them stronger??


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> This will probably help (see attachment).


I'm sorry, but it actually doesn't! I'm more confused than ever! It's not obvious to me how this works.



> In short, I wanted recirculation when the pump was running.


I'm sure there's some physical complexity preventing you from doing so, but a straight shot to the tray from the pump means that whatever drains out of the tray will go back to the tank and not remain in the plumbing.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 3, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'm sorry, but it actually doesn't! I'm more confused than ever! It's not obvious to me how this works.


OK. There's a pump on a timer. It pumps nute solution up the fill tube (the shorter tube rising from the reservoir.) The nutrient solution rises to the high point of the overflow at the end of the return side of the loop--so the height of that overflow determines the water level in the trays/cups. 

I use a telescoping 1/2" PVC riser so I can adjust it on the fly. 

Then the water falls down the other side of the overflow back into the res. During the flood cycle it is recirculated back through to maintain the water pressure and so the water level (although the nute solution pumped into the trays will stay there for the cycle and not be replaced until the next one once the lines are pressurized.)

When the pump turns off, the system drains fully through the return leg of the loop, as it is slightly lower. 

Does that make sense?




> I'm sure there's some physical complexity preventing you from doing so, but a straight shot to the tray from the pump means that whatever drains out of the tray will go back to the tank and not remain in the plumbing.


Yes, I have to go up and over an obstacle from the reservoir and then back down to below plant level, which isn't shown in the diagram. This would trap stale nutrient solution at the top of the system. 

The immediate response might be--so fill through the leg your draining with now, and don't use a loop. I considered that, but it doesn't really work for me--there are still bends in the return after the overflow that aren't in the diagram. Some amount of solution would still be trapped (less, but at least a few cups.) With this setup, it doesn't matter if some solution remains in the return leg, it will be cycled through the res before being pumped back up again.

Plus, I still liked the idea of keeping the solution circulating during the flood cycle. Finally, and maybe most importantly, using a loop with an overflow not only allows you to adjust the water level on the fly but makes precise timing of the flood cycle to achieve that water level unnecessary. I don't have to worry about a pump running too long and causing a tray or cup to overflow. This is important as while my res in on the floor, the loop and the plants are in a cabinet above a row of appliances! Otherwise one would have to add an overflow to the trays, which would fix the water-level (and isn't really feasible with cups.)

If you want the benefit of the overflow without the hassle of the loop, you can just add one with a tee, in-line between the res and the trays in a standard setup. It works the same way, the trays will fill to the level of the overflow and then the overflow will return excess to the res. To change fill level you adjust the height of the overflow, and stop mucking around with pumping times. 

Also for really large setups you could use something more efficient and reliable than an aquarium pump. With this kind of setup, scale up the PVC size and you could use a sump pump with giant trays. 

But I'm not knocking your tray system, it's much more straightforward. I'd be happily using it if I had the room. And I'll probably replace my cups with smallish trays, because these cups are stupid. I'm not sure why I did that.

Your point about elegance in design is well taken. I feel like what I'm describing is indeed something of an inelegant hack, but it does let you adapt to tricky physical layouts, or be more flexible about the pumping setup. It's not all that prone to failure but it is somewhat ugly and improvised.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2008)

hmm, ok- but it occurs to me that even if a straight fill line has to loop over obstacles, even those which are above the tray flood level, during drainback, siphon action will almost fully drain the hose as the long as the outlet is below the tray drain fitting. The height limit of any obstacle would be the head limit of the pump, usually about 1-1.3m for small centrif pumps.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 3, 2008)

Right. With this, you can use a big ol sump pump and a check valve if you need to. (For my setup a two hundred something pond pump works fine.)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2008)

ok, but how does it drain back at the end of a flood cycle if there's ck valves in the fill line, which normally becomes the drain for water below the overflow level?


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 3, 2008)

That's a good point. Or rather, they're both good points. The siphon action with a pump that will allow draining though it might very well be enough. Also, using a pump or valve that prevents that adds more complexity. If you did it that way you'd have a little standing solution in the vertical part of the fill line, up to the level of the loop. However:

- Any solution in the system past the top of the rise of the fill line that is at or above the level of the loop but below the top of the overflow would drain into and remain in the return leg, before the overflow

-The solution standing in the fill pipe will still not yet have been used by the plant, and some will be drained into the return leg at the beginning of the next cycle to fill the overflow and return leg before the water level can rise to the trays. So the plants wouldn't see some of that standing nutrient it until it was recirculated again anyway. 

I'm not sure all utility/sump pumps need a check valve, or if some can permit draining through the pumps. You might end up having to rely on a spring loaded valve to allow draining from the fill side when it's not pressurized. I'm sharing the design as much for novelty as anything else, as the topic of other types of pumps came up.

It's kludgey, like I said, but it works a treat. It might need refinement for use with a sump/utlity pump, etc--I could see the problem you're pointing out becoming problematic depending on the physical layout of the plumbing. 


Like you said, it makes no sense to attempt this (except maybe borrowing the overflow for inline use) unless you need to.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 4, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> It's kludgey, like I said, but it works a treat.


I don't suppose you're familiar with Rube Goldberg, are you?


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 4, 2008)

We are building a better mousetrap! We can do it--we have the technology!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 4, 2008)

damn the better mousetrap- I just want to win the rat race before they make faster rats.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 4, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> > I'm not sure all utility/sump pumps need a check valve, or if some can permit draining through the pumps.
> 
> 
> I am sure that all sump pumps meant to pump water out of a crock and put it on the ground outside need a check valve. The reason is the length of the run. They have to pump an average of 10' to pump it out. If there was no check valve the water would just flow back to the crock, the lowest point in the system. Because of the amount of water contained in an 1 1/2" or larger pipe 10' long this can refill the crock, causing the pump to come on and drain the water into the pipe, shut down and turn off to pump the water into the pipe, shutoff to fill the crock, come on to fill the pipe, shut off..... you get the idea.
> You don't need to adjust your height on the fly to make sure you get overflow and there is not any purpose in doing so unless you just like the sound. A 500 gallon/ hour pump will pump the same amount of water in a given time period all the time. You are making a project out of a job. Throw that check valve away and let the system run, measure the height of the water, when its were you want it, about 1/2 the height of your pots is adequate, set your timer to run that amount of time. It will always pump that amount of water in that amount of time. KISS . VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 4, 2008)

What I'm not getting is why it has to be any more complicated than this:







Even this layout, with the _*ultra-luxurious*_ () 'flip-2-valves-to-drain' addition, is more complex than needed to make it work.

This much I can tell you; after a number of years of running numerous different kinds of ops and hybrid variations of them is that VV's 'KISS' maxim makes a hell of a lot of sense. 

Building the system is one thing, running it day-to-day is quite another. 

Less is more. Simplicity is a core component of high reliability.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 4, 2008)

Hey Al, can you describe more possible low budget hydro solutions. I started in Hydro and have 4 plants in soil. They are going, but really slow. I love my hydro. What is it called when people take a bunch of cut 2 liters, and drop it in a tray with grodan??? How exactly is the right way to go about that??


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> What I'm not getting is why it has to be any more complicated than this:...
> Less is more. Simplicity is a core component of high reliability.


It doesn't have to be! Your design is great. Although I don't think the design I showed is all *that* complicated. There's still only one pump, and in my setup I'm using the typical pond style pump. It's just more plumbing, and uses a physical device to regulate water level rather than relying on a timer.

Ultimately, it got built the way it did because I had already seen the plans for F&D systems using cut down bottles and an overflow, and when I looked at the space I wanted to use I immediately saw how I could adapt that design. By the time I was done I had even moved the reservoir up off the floor and over a little, which means that in the end I probably could have gone with the more straightforward version. But I like the way this works. 

>shrug<

I've been running the system for a couple weeks (without any plants in it) to make sure it's sound. So far, so good. Soon I should have some clones ready to go in. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 4, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> I am sure that all sump pumps meant to pump water out of a crock and put it on the ground outside need a check valve. ...


Good to know. 


> You don't need to adjust your height on the fly to make sure you get overflow and there is not any purpose in doing so unless you just like the sound. A 500 gallon/ hour pump will pump the same amount of water in a given time period all the time.


Yes, but the same amount of space isn't always available for the water--the roots will eventually fill up the cups and less water will be needed to reach the same flood level. I'd rather it go somewhere other than out the bottom of the cabinet and onto the appliances below. 
With the overflow I can run the timer for the same amount of time--always-- and the water will always reach the same level--and if the overflow is adjustable I can vary that level depending upon the needs of the plants (higher when they first go in...) I don't need to constantly fiddle with the flood time as the cups fill up faster. 



> You are making a project out of a job. Throw that check valve away and let the system run, measure the height of the water, when its were you want it, about 1/2 the height of your pots is adequate, set your timer to run that amount of time. It will always pump that amount of water in that amount of time. KISS . VV


I'm not dealing with all that, myself. I just wanted to point out that a looped system will accomodate pumps that a single fill/drain line will not. Including external inline transfer pumps or sump/utility pumps. I'd agree it's unnecessary for most situations.


----------



## potroast (Apr 5, 2008)

Well, I like the idea. It covers the problem of an overflow tube, and extra drain for that. Especially if your res supplies more than 1 tray, they will fill at different times so you have to run the pump long enough for all trays to fill, and most would overflow into the overflow drains.

Kinda like the multi-bucket system with a level controlled in all by the level in one bucket.

HTH


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 5, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> I've been running the system for a couple weeks (without any plants in it) to make sure it's sound. So far, so good. Soon I should have some clones ready to go in. We'll see how it goes.


i would love to see an actual pic of the thing up and running, that would be great... or maybe you dont have a camera, idk..


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 5, 2008)

I don't, and I'm afraid to try and wedge myself into the corners I'd have to in order to take pics with my notebook. I'd probably smack it into something and crack the screen. 
My cell phone cam is too crappy to produce useful pictures, really. 

I'll see if I can borrow one from someone in the family.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> WDWYFL, I happen to be a distributor for hydroponics equipment. I checked one of my supplier catalogues and I find this notation under the listing for RW floc I buy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


have you gotten a chance to try this yet. I think I might go this route considering the fact I'm having a hard time finding fytocell.


----------



## DaveM (Apr 5, 2008)

Hello Al, have just noticed your pruned plant pics, this is something I am trying to get to grips with.
Any chance of a breakdown as to how you do yours ?

much appreciated


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 5, 2008)

I couldnt find anywhere with the fytocell. I am going to try putting hydroton then some coconut put the clone in the rockwool and then place hydroton on top and see if that works!


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 5, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> have you gotten a chance to try this yet. I think I might go this route considering the fact I'm having a hard time finding fytocell.


havin the same problem with finding the fytocell to so im gonna try this to, or maybe try a perlite and rockwool mix...



DaveM said:


> Hello Al, have just noticed your pruned plant pics, this is something I am trying to get to grips with.
> Any chance of a breakdown as to how you do yours ?
> 
> much appreciated


at the end of week 1 and week 3 in the flowering cycle he CHOPS everything from the BOTTOM THIRD of the plant. EVERYTHING and this allows air flow and fuuler growth on the top end. i think if you check his gallery he even has a comparison for you to see.



insanestang4life said:


> I couldnt find anywhere with the fytocell. I am going to try putting hydroton then some coconut put the clone in the rockwool and then place hydroton on top and see if that works!


i to considered this, starting in rockwool cubes then putting about 2" of loose rockwool in the bootom of the pot and fill the rest with rocks and place the rooted colne in there. however cleaning or disposing of rocks may be out of the lazy question. might be leaning to a rockwool perlite mix, or repellent/absorbant mix of rockwool. good luck tho stang..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *DaveM*
> Hello Al, have just noticed your pruned plant pics, this is something I am trying to get to grips with.
> Any chance of a breakdown as to how you do yours ?


yep  



cmak40 said:


> at the end of week 1 and week 3 in the flowering cycle he CHOPS everything from the BOTTOM THIRD of the plant. EVERYTHING and this allows air flow and fuuler growth on the top end.


spot on, thanks. 



Please pardon the cooked leaf tips- a bit of heat damage which happened before I installed the cooltubes. Plant on left is properly pruned for SoG. Plant on the right is one which I inadvertently missed pruning. 



Note annoying little buds on improperly pruned plant. Just as many leaves to trim off on these lower branch buds as on the uppers, but it is characteristic of the growing habit of cannabis to produce its largest buds on the tip of the mainstem with smaller and smaller ones as you move down the plant. May as well not grow that part of the plant.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 5, 2008)

BUDGI posted a comment to my pic gallery, suggested the 'Fresca Sol' water cooled cooltubes. 







I think these are great stuff and they would give you viable options for a powerfully lighted op when you just don't have the practical ability to sustain moving about 200CFM worth of air through air cooled cooltubes. 

However, the makers say that you need 50gal (189 litres) of dedicated water reservoir per 1000W light. I simply do not have room for 378L worth of reservoirs to cool my pair of 1000s in the flowering area. I also prefer not to have to maintain the water cooling system. It surely would need periodic maintenance, topping up the cooling water tank/s, etc. However, I would bet fungal growth would be minimal due to circulation of the water past a strong UV light source. Seen several water sterilisation units which use essentially this arrangement but with a UVC fluoro lamp.

These look like a great solution for ops where you just can't conveniently dump cooltube air anywhere, but there's some trade-off in convenience compared to air-cooled cooltubes.


----------



## DaveM (Apr 5, 2008)

Sorry Al, I just realised the mistake. I was looking at the COP photo of pruned plants. I have read your thread and understand the pruning when doing the SOG. I am growing the plant normally not SOG.
Any idea whose that crop was, he may help  <weg>

thanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 5, 2008)

No prob, Dave. 

Unfortunately, I suspect the grower who owned those plants may not be so easy to contact these days. 

The cop photo:



The way you get plants like those is to lop the mainstem, encouraging branching. You might veg for a couple of weeks before initiating flowering, but I suspect it'd work OK just by lopping at the beginning of 12/12.


----------



## DaveM (Apr 5, 2008)

Cheers Al


----------



## Kuji (Apr 5, 2008)

I have one question about the hydro system that I couldn't find using the search (still haven't gotten around to the whole thing.) Exactly how does the water pump turn off when the tray is correctly flooded and how is the level controlled _while_ the tank is being flooded? 

What are the essential components to the pumps in a flood system? I'm guessing pump, timer, tray fitting, tubing, and...


----------



## royalewithcheese40 (Apr 6, 2008)

so youre always in 12/12 right? do you skip the veg nutes? what is your feeding schedule like? what products do you use?
great post, not enough sog info out there.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

Kuji said:


> I have one question about the hydro system that I couldn't find using the search (still haven't gotten around to the whole thing.) Exactly how does the water pump turn off when the tray is correctly flooded and how is the level controlled _while_ the tank is being flooded?
> 
> What are the essential components to the pumps in a flood system? I'm guessing pump, timer, tray fitting, tubing, and...


See here:

*Simply Hydroponics - System types*


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

royalewithcheese40 said:


> so youre always in 12/12 right? do you skip the veg nutes? what is your feeding schedule like? what products do you use?
> great post, not enough sog info out there.


Thanks for that. 

All your queries' answers are in the first few pages of the thread.

Yes, the flowering area runs 12/12/365.

The mums run veg nutes. They are under 24/0 lighting and are flooded 2x/day. I use Canna nutes.


----------



## Kuji (Apr 6, 2008)

So there's no mechanism that blocks the water from reentering the resivouir, it just goes back by itself? This means that the tray is _constantly _flooded for those 3-5 minutes and the water returns to the resivour freely, right? I was under the impression that the tray was flooded, water sat there for a minute or so, and was then released back by a valve or something.

Thanks for the link btw.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 6, 2008)

Kuji said:


> So there's no mechanism that blocks the water from reentering the resivouir, it just goes back by itself? This means that the tray is _constantly _flooded for those 3-5 minutes and the water returns to the resivour freely, right? I was under the impression that the tray was flooded, water sat there for a minute or so, and was then released back by a valve or something.
> 
> Thanks for the link btw.


exactly...there is an overflow set to the height you want or the height of how high you want the table to flood. so when the pump turns on it flows up into the table and fills contantly while the pump is running till it hit the overflow at which time it will run back in. now when the pump stops. becaus ethe overflow is 2+ inches from the bottom of the table the pump itself lets the water flow backthru it to drain thus "flood and drain" its very simple and shouldnt need any more explanation than that. it only needs to be watered to get the medium wet, youl probably flood a couple times a day depending on your medium but it just has to get wet.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

Kuji said:


> So there's no mechanism that blocks the water from reentering the resivouir, it just goes back by itself? This means that the tray is _constantly _flooded for those 3-5 minutes and the water returns to the resivour freely, right?









yep!



> I was under the impression that the tray was flooded, water sat there for a minute or so, and was then released back by a valve or something.


nope, no valves (unless you're Maccabee, then there's several  ). 

It is the overflow tube which sets the max level. It is the trickery of a centrif pump that allows water to gravity feed backward through it once power to the pump is shut off which allows water below the overflow tube level to return to the res tank. 



> Thanks for the link btw.


No worries. One of my faves. Great info for new hydro system builders.


----------



## cream8 (Apr 6, 2008)

wow...im just catching up on this thread. i have to say hands down one of the most informative threads ive read online period..thank you for taking your time away from those healthy plants to take all those pics and school us, and answer almost every question anyone asks. sometimes more then once! just wanted to say thanks A TON. you will see the karma coming back to you


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

cream8 said:


> wow...im just catching up on this thread. i have to say hands down one of the most informative threads ive read online period..thank you for taking your time away from those healthy plants to take all those pics and school us, and answer almost every question anyone asks. sometimes more then once! just wanted to say thanks A TON. you will see the karma coming back to you


heh, thanks for that.  

I do rely on folks to do some reading; the times where you see my shortest replies or when I ask them to go read more of the thread or hit the FAQ is usually when something fairly basic has been asked- and I'm harvesting.... which is pretty often!

The time I spend on here is actually resting/diversion time. I type at about 90-100wpm and do this in between bouts of working in the op. Sorry, but growing dope, while a pretty good working arrangement given the _*real*_ short commute and lack of bosses, is actually boring as batshit after a while. This op is organised on production line principles. Once I have something nailed down, the process simply repeats. Over. And over. And over. And over. 

There's no water cooler in this job to gather around and shoot the shit. It can be an extremely lonesome occupation- in fact, it _*has*_ to be a very lonesome occupation if you're going to have the job for any length of time...

Makes me sad to see folks struggle with things I've worked out years ago, so I don't mind helping ppl succeed.


----------



## cream8 (Apr 6, 2008)

makes alot of sense. i could see how the production line aspect of it could get old. but im just in awe and hope to be growing at this level and utilizing these techniques in the near future


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

While I appreciate your awe, I'm here to tell you that it eventually wears off. 

Growing at this level, as you describe it, as opposed to hobbyist level grows, has some conveniences and compromises. One production line compromise is the watering system. I run pots of absorbent media in flood systems because this is the simplest, very lowest maintenance and highest reliability system in existence. Other methods like DWC, NFT & aero can yield somewhat better due to better oxygenation of the roots. However, these methods all are much more maintenance-intensive and some have the odd Achilles heel in which a comparatively simple fault can trash months of work. 

When you live with the op 24/7/365, you can check things all the time- but after a while, as I said, the blush goes off the rose a bit- and you need time off. When I have a batch of clones in the box (which is most of the time), I'm in the op daily, every 12 hours, for watering. The mums and flowering plants can go about 48 hours without me looking in on them. At best, I can have 2 consecutive days off- but I have not had a proper holiday in many years. I do have an emergency automated tank top-up system on the shelf ready to go, which can use dehumidifier water to top up all 5 tanks and mathematically should be able to deal with the task unattended for up to 2 weeks, but pH and nute strengths are not monitored nor tended to. You can buy automated systems to manage both, but they're thousands of bucks- and I'd need 5 of them.


----------



## panhead (Apr 6, 2008)

Hey Al,i stole your idea for your bud dryer & modified your plans to fit my skill level for making such things so there were changes to the design,i keep the dryer in a room with 40% humidity & average temps of 76 degrees,is the added heat being supplied to the dryer from your heat sink an issue of importance that i should try & replicate.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

panhead said:


> Hey Al,i stole your idea for your bud dryer & modified your plans to fit my skill level for making such things so there were changes to the design,i keep the dryer in a room with 40% humidity & average temps of 76 degrees,is the added heat being supplied to the dryer from your heat sink an issue of importance that i should try & replicate.


First of all, remember that you can't steal what's being given away. 

The importance of the thermostatically controlled heating element in that thing isn't about whether it will work or not- it'll certainly work without it. One without a heater will work much better in a warm ambient environment as you have found (though your 40% RH is a bit high for fast drying)- it is mainly about consistency of drying speed and maintaining quality through a strict limit on max temp. 

No matter which way you slice the baloney, even just air motion though the box will put the brakes on mould from very soon after you put the buds in. Mould hates a draft. 

Glad it's working for you.


----------



## panhead (Apr 6, 2008)

Thanks Al,i just wanted to make sure to give credit to the designer & not claim it as my own.

Anyhow i kinda figured that the even drying speed & the moving air was the most important issues at hand,im still trying to figure out a store bought off the shelf remedy to control the temps,i have a few ideas but nothing concrete yet.


----------



## southfloridasean (Apr 6, 2008)

Al can you check out my thread on the 18hr alternative light schedule & give me your input. It would be appreciated.


----------



## Kuji (Apr 6, 2008)

The system seems quite simple, but I'm guessing the complicated part(at least starting out) is finding the correct flood time and times per day according to the grow media and type of strain. Maintaing proper nutrient level and ph also seem to be skills gained through practice and expirience.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

panhead said:


> Anyhow i kinda figured that the even drying speed & the moving air was the most important issues at hand,im still trying to figure out a store bought off the shelf remedy to control the temps,i have a few ideas but nothing concrete yet.


I don't think you'll find a ready made air heating element with temp control. Edmund Scientific once had a little bit of everything, but they don't seem to have the plethora of Army surplus and whatnot they once did. 

You could modify a commercially made dehydrator but it would involve adding a HD dimmer to the heating element circuit and replacement of the thermostat in case the commercially made unit's tstat does not go down to 29C. Many don't go below 38C. By the time you get done modding a commercially made dehydrator, you will have spent 2-3x more than the cost of a homebuilt unit- and the volume capacity will be much smaller than a cheap plastic storage tub.



southfloridasean said:


> Al can you check out my thread on the 18hr alternative light schedule & give me your input. It would be appreciated.


A link would be good. 

I will tell you beforehand though that monkeying around with anything other than a 12/12 cycle for flowering is not a good idea. Lots of ppl have played with all manner of odd flowering cycles over the years; the net result is smaller buds harvested more often. I solved the harvest frequency problem without loss of bud size by running 4 independent systems, staggered by 2 weeks.



Kuji said:


> The system seems quite simple, but I'm guessing the complicated part(at least starting out) is finding the correct flood time and times per day according to the grow media and type of strain. Maintaing proper nutrient level and ph also seem to be skills gained through practice and expirience.


Not complicated. The strain is generally unrelated, unless you have a particularly scrawny phenotype that doesn't require watering as often as more vigorous types. 

You're looking to water absorbent media when the pots have lost about 1/2 to 2/3 of their absorbed water weight, either by the plants using the water or through direct evaporation. 

If using highly absorbent media like RW floc, watering time is 1x at lights on until the flood depth is about 50mm for advanced plants. Plants in wk1-2 can be watered every other day. 

If using clay pellets, which hold almost no water, rather must be dampened periodically by flooding, even very small plants will get flooded 2-3x/lights-on with the last watering not much later than 1.5-2h before lights off. No watering is required in any media during lights off.

Maintaining pH and nute strength is also simple but is often overcomplicated by new hydroponic growers, who are tempted to maintain nute strength at the same level all day every day. One should _*not*_ be overenthusiastic about making corrections. In particular, one should not add water and fresh nutrient mix to a half-eaten tank of nutes. Tanks should be dumped, cleaned and mixed fresh every 2 weeks but topped up only with plain water and pH corrected on top up between dumps. The reason for this is that you don't know how much N, P & K remain and in what ratio they exist one to the other in a half-eaten tank. Just measuring the ppm won't tell you, either. If you had a device that measured the individual elements (also known as a mass spectrometer, costs a few tens of thousands) and separate bottles of N, P, K & micronutrients, then you could reasonably micromanage your nute strength. 

Real people like you & me with $100 EC meters should rely on the chemists at the nutrient manufacturers to get the ratios right- and should _*only*_ add nute concentrates to plain water when mixing fresh sauce. Tapwater will be somewhat higher in pH than you need, so when you top with water, you will be adjusting pH downward each time. I would not bother topping up tanks every day- you can top up and correct pH 1-2x a week. You should be adding H2O2 50% grade to your tanks at 1ml/L every 3-4 days, so you can top up at the time if you like.

If you can hold these concepts in mind, you have all the experience you need to properly manage your nute tanks.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 6, 2008)

hypothetically speaking- if you were to add one more 1kw light, how would you do it? it seems like your setup is perfectly setup for 2kw. 

my best guess would be give the last 2 crop cycles its own 1kw???

just curious


----------



## southfloridasean (Apr 6, 2008)

Heres the link AL https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/62836-has-anyone-attempted-6-hr.html


----------



## knowledge seeker (Apr 6, 2008)

hey man, when you are cloning you just dip the rockwool in water, no flood system, also where do u get loose rockwool. i am setting up for you're operation, will be in operation in about a week, any suggestions thanks mike


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 6, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> hypothetically speaking- if you were to add one more 1kw light, how would you do it? it seems like your setup is perfectly setup for 2kw.
> 
> my best guess would be give the last 2 crop cycles its own 1kw???


Yes, you're right- it's got a certain symmetry to it. Adding one more kW would be awkward, but I think you've worked it out. Kinda. I get no problems related to low light covering each pair of trays with a single 1000, so if you were going to add another light, you should probably add more tray space for the additional light. However, the first 2 trays are then something of a bottleneck in the pipeline as there's more capacity downstream than you'll be able to fill without expanding the upstream capacity, if you see what I mean. If you added 2 more 1000s, the answer is a lot simpler- just double the lot, lights and trays! 



southfloridasean said:


> Heres the link AL https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/62836-has-anyone-attempted-6-hr.html


yeah, that's what I thought you were up to. 

Has anyone attempted it? Almost no one _*hasn't! *_Browse some other forums, you will find plenty of them, some with pix. The nut is that it is not the sheer number of on/off light cycles that causes flowering to complete properly, it's also the number of hours of exposure to (sun)light which transfers energy from the light into the photosynthetic process. Less energy in = less bud out. 



knowledge seeker said:


> hey man, when you are cloning you just dip the rockwool in water, no flood system,


That's right- 



I just dip one corner of the cube into pH 5.8 water. 



> also where do u get loose rockwool.


I get mine from Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe. Rockwool floc is also sold as an insulation product. If you buy it labelled for insulation use, do a bit of research and make sure it has not been treated with anything to inhibit fungus or algae growth. If a treatment will kill algae, it'll usually kill cannabis, too.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 7, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *southfloridasean*
> _Heres the link AL Has Anyone Attempted The 6 Hr 40 Min On/ 12 Hr Off Schedule?_
> 
> ...


There's an SI derived unit for illuminance exposure, the lux-hour. 1 lumen per m^2 = 1 lux. 1 lumen per m^2 for 1 hour is, of course, 1 lux-hour. 

You could quantify the number of lux-hours given during flowering for a 12/12 arrangement for 8 weeks vs a 6.5/12 schedule for 8 weeks to predict how the plants will respond. In a 12/12 cycle for 8 weeks, there's (8w*7d)*12h=672 illuminated hours available, at whatever lux rate you apply. I'll let you math out the other way. 

I don't think there's any anomalies in cannabis plants when they get short days in flowering with 12h nights. Some other lighting aberrancies, like frequent interruption of the 12h dark cycle in flowering, have been known to induce hermaphrodism. I'd be looking for that in short-day flowered plants anyway.


----------



## Kuji (Apr 7, 2008)

Thanks for that very helpful reply. Information about the small things involved with the growing, I believe, is most important and helpful. Anyone can read up on hydroponics and gain a basic understanding of the process, but the nitty-gritty tasks involved with starting and _maintaining _a system often go unmentioned. Which is why this thread is so awesome!!!

Seriously, I'm learning almost everything I need to know from this thread. The last few times I read the thread I just picked a random page, but was able to find something significantly helpful each time. Good Stuff. 

THANKS!


----------



## cordobayumyum (Apr 7, 2008)

Mr. Fuct,
"You are my sunshine my only sunshine". In all sincerity, your posts are immensely helpful and are an invaluable resource. 
As a disclamer, I am only repeating information that I have read without any actual experience but some believe that an exhaust system hooked up to a thermostat can be a fire hazard because if there were a small fire the exhaust would allow it to grow bigger.

I do have a few questions that I hope aren't too burdensome.
Besides security, what about your grow regularly worries you? You mentioned that daily you check a pot from each corner of each tray to ensure that your pumps are functioning properly. It seems that you are also battling P.M. You probably watch these two things closely because in the past they were problematic. So, which things do you expect could be problematic in your grow?

What prophylactics do you use?

You wrote that it took you about three 12 hour days to manicure a tray. If each tray has 23 plants then it takes almost two hours to trim each plant?


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Apr 7, 2008)

cordobayumyum said:


> What prophylactics do you use?


I use these: Trojancondoms.com - Products - MAGNUMÂ® Lubricated Condoms


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I don't think you'll find a ready made air heating element with temp control. Edmund Scientific once had a little bit of everything, but they don't seem to have the plethora of Army surplus and whatnot they once did.
> 
> You could modify a commercially made dehydrator but it would involve adding a HD dimmer to the heating element circuit and replacement of the thermostat in case the commercially made unit's tstat does not go down to 29C. Many don't go below 38C. By the time you get done modding a commercially made dehydrator, you will have spent 2-3x more than the cost of a homebuilt unit- and the volume capacity will be much smaller than a cheap plastic storage tub.
> 
> ...


AL can you just mix some extra nutes and top off with the same ppm solution ?


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 7, 2008)

Al can i start taking clones off of a plant that is in week 4 of veg and the Foxfarm feeding schedule ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 7, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Thanks for that very helpful reply. Information about the small things involved with the growing, I believe, is most important and helpful. Anyone can read up on hydroponics and gain a basic understanding of the process, but the nitty-gritty tasks involved with starting and _maintaining _a system often go unmentioned. Which is why this thread is so awesome!!!
> 
> Seriously, I'm learning almost everything I need to know from this thread. The last few times I read the thread I just picked a random page, but was able to find something significantly helpful each time. Good Stuff.
> 
> THANKS!


Coolio, thanks 



cordobayumyum said:


> Mr. Fuct,
> "You are my sunshine my only sunshine".


Herro Kitty! 



cordobayumyum said:


> In all sincerity, your posts are immensely helpful and are an invaluable resource.


Thanks. 



cordobayumyum said:


> As a disclamer, I am only repeating information that I have read without any actual experience but some believe that an exhaust system hooked up to a thermostat can be a fire hazard because if there were a small fire the exhaust would allow it to grow bigger.


Some would never run a successful grow op if that was their belief. Thermostatically controlled ventilation is an utter essential for a functional grow op. The only way to avoid it would be to install air conditioning- and then one would also have to introduce CO2- this would roughly double to triple the cost (if not more) of running an op like mine. 

There are no fire hazards in my op- neither should there be any in yours. If there were any (say, a combustion type CO2 generator), a fire suppression system which disconnected AC mains power to the ventilation system would be sensible. However, if your electrics are in good condition, all devices adequately fused, circuits are not loaded in excess of their capacity (continuous load should not exceed 80% of breaker rating- I run 50%), off the floor and away from wet, you have no fears of fires. If you have your house in true order, the risk of fire is so low that sophisticated fire protection and suppression are simply unnecessary. Breakers will trip or fuses will open before anything foul can happen. 

Anyone installing an op should be intimately familiar with the wiring of the housing structure. Smart growers pull in their own run of new 10-12ga Romex cable from a power panel in their op to the breaker box so to avoid using existing house wiring, especially if it is old or of dubious quality. 10ga will carry 30A. 

The jury's out on smoke alarms. A falsely alerting smoke alarm can draw public attention to your op in your absence. Can spoil your whole day when you get home. 



cordobayumyum said:


> I do have a few questions that I hope aren't too burdensome.
> Besides security, what about your grow regularly worries you? You mentioned that daily you check a pot from each corner of each tray to ensure that your pumps are functioning properly. It seems that you are also battling P.M. You probably watch these two things closely because in the past they were problematic. So, which things do you expect could be problematic in your grow?


Watering failures are a frequent pain in the ass, usually caused by an air bubble in a pump chamber, sometimes caused by a pump wearing out, less often caused by a malfunctioning digital timer (they act screwy when their backup batts die, OK after replacement, kinda defeats the purp, eh?). 

Continuous harvest ops are hard to control stuff like PM in. The existing infected crop quickly colonises the newbs. I'm still working on that, as you know. The trick is to never let it get started. One of these days, I may have to pull everything out of the room, sterilise it, harvest everything harvestable and start the process over. Not that fussed yet, tho. Still generally working fine despite the odd dusty leaf.



cordobayumyum said:


> What prophylactics do you use?


Sulfur burner is a recent addition, have been using 'Micro Kill' in the past. 

No thanks to the wiseass who stole my opportunity for a cheap smutty joke here. 



cordobayumyum said:


> You wrote that it took you about three 12 hour days to manicure a tray. If each tray has 23 plants then it takes almost two hours to trim each plant?


Yeah, but you have to understand that 'nose down, hard work; to me involves bonghits and a couple of cups of coffee, as well as talking to you lot. 



stickyicky77 said:


> AL can you just mix some extra nutes and top off with the same ppm solution ?


No, you get the same effect as adding fresh nute mix to an old tank. Think of it this way; your fresh nutes might be NPK 10-20-10. After 2 weeks, let's presume all the P is eaten, half the N and 2/3 of the K. So, you have 5-0-3.3. Then you add a 50% tank volume of fresh 10-20-10. The resulting NPK is something like 7.5-10-6.65, not quite the high P ratio you want for flowering. 



stickyicky77 said:


> Al can i start taking clones off of a plant that is in week 4 of veg and the Foxfarm feeding schedule ?


Don't know what the FF feeding sked has to do with it. Nutes iz nutes for the most part. Nutes from big mfrs are more likely to be consistently quality controlled than those mixed up in buckets in the back of Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe. However, quite often, small maker or bargain nutes can work surprisingly well, but are best suited for experienced growers who can spot problems quickly should they arise. 

wk 4 from seed? Got to raise them to sexual maturity (6-8wks from seed) and sex them before they're useful as donors for plants you will flower. Raise your seedlings to sexual maturity, sex them (cover a branch for 12h/day while keeping the donor under veg cycle light or take cuttings, MARK WHICH PLANT THEY CAME FROM, then put those under 12/12 to reveal sex) THEN you can take all the cuttings for flowering you like.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 8, 2008)

Al when you were mentioned you only get 2 days off you meant weekly right.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 8, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> Al when you were mentioned you only get 2 days off you meant weekly right.


I can tend the op, take 2 days off, tend it, take 2 days off, etc. 

Mind you... IF ONLY a day went by when I could just sit on my ass... there's ALWAYS something to do in the op. If I let a day go by and do nothing, I have 2x to do the next day. There's always some manicuring or cleaning that can be done... but somedays... I get a real bad case of IDGAF.

Tending the op itself is a real zero, takes next to no time, but I can't fuck off to Nepal for a few weeks if that's where the spirit moves me.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 8, 2008)

Fuct Engineering products:









With deluxe heat-shrink strain reliefs! 

If it ain't FUCT, you don't need it.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 8, 2008)

Hey, AL B got another question for you. Sorry to keep bothering you. If I was going to put about 3 inches of hydroton in the bottom of my pots, then a few inches of coconut, then set my rockwool cube on top of the coconut and surround the rockwool with more hydroton. When I flood the table how high should the water go? Should it just barely touch the coconut or cover it or should it barely touch the rockwool or even soak the rockwool? If the coconut gets soaked will the rockwool since its touching the coconut suck some water in it? Sorry for the stupid question but I couldnt find anything about this! Thanks again


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 8, 2008)

How about you just skip the coco coir? Organic materials can support mould as well as can break into bits and foul your pumps.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 8, 2008)

Okay if I skip the coconut and just put the rockwool cube in the hydroton I will have to water twice a day probly right? Also, should the water flood high enough to get the rockwool barely wet or soaked?


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 8, 2008)

hey al, hows it shaking mate?

if you were to substitute the trays for something different, what would you use? i heard pond liner works great. 

also how would *you* frame this using wood? 

it seems like the trays are the most expensive part of an E&F system. 

thanks al.


----------



## blazingblunt1989 (Apr 8, 2008)

straight respect on this nicly done my ex girls dad had a soil system harvested 6-8 pound every 2 months but shit i like your system way better because there ain't no bud like hydro bud lol jp soils good as fuck 2


----------



## Kuji (Apr 9, 2008)

I saw you posted that you grew a variety of strains and was wondering which ones gave you the most problems as well as which ones preformed the best in the ebb and flow SoG. I want to start with a well rounded plant with, still potent, but easy to grow and decent yeild. However, if all goes well I would eventually like a solid big yielding strain as well as an extremely potent half-hitter quitter bud. 

Also, do you think using four 1000w lights and doubling up the system like another poster proposed is pushing your luck with electricity, security, secrecy, etc?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> Okay if I skip the coconut and just put the rockwool cube in the hydroton I will have to water twice a day probly right? Also, should the water flood high enough to get the rockwool barely wet or soaked?


 With a RW cube in pellets, flood at least 2x/lights-on, perhaps 3 in the beginning. When the plants are advanced (post wk4), they might need more frequent flooding. 

Flood up to 1/2" BELOW the RW cube, don't let the flood level touch the cube. You'll get overwatering symptoms. The roots will find the damp pellets below in short order. You can hand water the pellets around the cube- NOT the cube- for the first 4-6 days after planting in pellets, if you like. There's lots of airspace between pellets, so the roots will like being frequently flooded once they've knit down into them. 



We TaRdED said:


> hey al, hows it shaking mate?


 Sideways at the moment. Was shaking obliquely and to the left a while ago. Why do you ask? 



> if you were to substitute the trays for something different, what would you use? i heard pond liner works great.
> 
> also how would *you* frame this using wood?
> 
> it seems like the trays are the most expensive part of an E&F system.


 Being a shithouse carpenter, if _*I*_ framed something using wood, it would be kaddywompus and askew. 

I would not attempt to make trays if you can buy proper moulded plastic ones. Pond liner and shower stall liner, however tough, isn't designed to have pots scuffed across it all the time and will develop pinhole leaks. If it is not UV stabilised (as I would expect shower stall liner to NOT be), that will advance its demise. If you were to frame with wood and use plywood for the floor, you have the problem of sloping the floor toward the drain, as well. One pinhole and your wood tray or frame becomes mould food. If you DO try this, use treated pine timbers and marine grade plywood... and expect to replace the liner occasionally. 

I might suggest you shop better- trays are not that dear at all around here. The major cost in setting up an op will be the lighting and ventilation gear. I can get 900mm x 900mm trays for $52. 



blazingblunt1989 said:


> straight respect on this nicly done my ex girls dad had a soil system harvested 6-8 pound every 2 months but shit i like your system way better because there ain't no bud like hydro bud lol jp soils good as fuck 2


respeck, moite! 




Kuji said:


> I saw you posted that you grew a variety of strains and was wondering which ones gave you the most problems as well as which ones preformed the best in the ebb and flow SoG. I want to start with a well rounded plant with, still potent, but easy to grow and decent yeild. However, if all goes well I would eventually like a solid big yielding strain as well as an extremely potent half-hitter quitter bud.
> 
> Also, do you think using four 1000w lights and doubling up the system like another poster proposed is pushing your luck with electricity, security, secrecy, etc?


I settled on Sweet Tooth #4 because it was an outstanding yielder, resistant to pests & diseases and a damn nice smoke. It really was the best in show at the time and would yet be hard to beat. 

All plants are easy to grow if your room presents the right conditions. Indica dominant hybrids will be the best yielders as opposed to sativa doms. ST4 may be hard to get these days- try LUI or Blockhead. 

No, I'm pretty confident that if I wanted to, I could add another couple kW. The power company doesn't normally care about big users who pay their bills on time. I don't think I'd push far beyond 4kW in a residential house, though. That's starting to look like industrial usage. 

However, for my particular case, it would involve some upgrade to the ventilation system; I rely on dumping my heat into a 6000cu ft crawlspace, which while huge and able to sink a fair amount of heat into the damp bedrock, would probably begin to get a bit warm with the waste heat from 4kWs. I'd have to work out a way of getting the warm air out of there more proactively. I'd also be pushing the limits of the 60A mains service supply to this place. About 24A would be committed to the op. 

Could be done- but you know, I have enough trouble keeping up with the output of 2kWs.  Starting to look like work already.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

Was just looking through my gallery and came across one of my favourite tricks. Bears repeating. 



> _parallel a motor speed controller with your fan thermostat_
> 
> You have just invested a few hundred in a centrif fan, some acoustic damped duct and a carbon filter. However, during lights off, you notice scents wafting around the grow room? What gives?
> 
> ...


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 9, 2008)

thanks al for the reply 

ya if i can find one for 50 bucks ill pick it up. i all ready have my 400 watter and my 6 in inline fan is hooked up, its just a matter of finder a cheap e and f table.

if anyone has a link to some cheap ones in the us, please post the link, or PM me.

al do you think its ok to get this shipped? sometimes the delivery service are a bunch sloppy SOB's. 
or am i better off paying top dollar at the hydro store?

 ty al for your services. 

ps i bet you didnt expect this many questions when you signed up for RIU, hehe


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

Depends, how bad are the prices at Ye Olde? Can't help you with US pricing, pretty long commute for me. 

I have seen single units damaged in shipping. If sent via courier, they have to be packed well. Seen hydro shops try to wrap them in black plastic sheeting and expect they'd be OK... If you do mail order, get some water in the tray soon after delivery to ck for cracks. 

You know, I actually *did* expect this many questions- I was a mod/mentor on Overgrow from sometime in 1999 into 2005. 

I'm doing things a bit differently these says, containing most of my commentary to this thread. I just can't keep track of a number of them. I do occasionally stray out of here, but it's _rare._


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

While we were on the topic of expanding my op, it occurs to me to mention the concept of "enough." With due respect, it's totally foreign to _*all*_ teenagers and most Americans. 

One of the secrets to growing dope for a very long time with no legal complications is to be a one-man band. This op makes as much as one person can manage, as a full time gig or close to it. Some days you work 10 mins, some days you work 12 hours- but you'd be one busy sumbitch trying to run an op this size and commute to a daily rat race gig, particularly come biweekly harvest times. 

5000 thetans can keep a secret if 4999 of them have been blown up by Xenu with a cosmic H-bomb in a volcano.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 9, 2008)

That is exactly what I have been thinking. Getting too greedy is what gets people busted. I have a question. Could you pour sand on top of the fotocell you are using and have it stay there ?? I added some to the top of my coco-coir medium as an experiment for controlling fungus gnats. It added about 2# of weight to the pot, they won't float anywhere. No noticable adverse effects so far. Had less than a 10 ml of washed out sand when I cleaned the table. VV


----------



## Kuji (Apr 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> While we were on the topic of expanding my op, it occurs to me to mention the concept of "enough." With due respect, it's totally foreign to _*all*_ teenagers and most Americans.
> 
> One of the secrets to growing dope for a very long time with no legal complications is to be a one-man band. This op makes as much as one person can manage, as a full time gig or close to it. Some days you work 10 mins, some days you work 12 hours- but you'd be one busy sumbitch trying to run an op this size and commute to a daily rat race gig, particularly come biweekly harvest times.
> 
> 5000 thetans can keep a secret if 4999 of them have been blown up by Xenu with a cosmic H-bomb in a volcano.


That's good advice, though sounds a bit lonely. I will most likely have a couple house mates simply becuase I couldn't afford a single family home(rent) on my own. However these peeps are totally cool with it, of course, and are mature individuals as well and that's more then I can say for most of my stoner friends. 

Thanks for the great info on strains. Did your white widow and ak-47 do well in the system(Yeild/potency/problems)? I'm interested in these two well-known strains and it would be an absolute joy to grow my own.


----------



## JESSICAJESS (Apr 9, 2008)

hi man real nice,haw much dos it cost to set up?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> That is exactly what I have been thinking. Getting too greedy is what gets people busted.


Every SINGLE time.



> I have a question. Could you pour sand on top of the fotocell you are using and have it stay there ?? I added some to the top of my coco-coir medium as an experiment for controlling fungus gnats. It added about 2# of weight to the pot, they won't float anywhere. No noticable adverse effects so far. Had less than a 10 ml of washed out sand when I cleaned the table. VV


I suppose I _could_ put sand on the Fytocell, but my gnat problems are really not that bad. If it was a big deal around here, I think I would drop the pots in knee-hi stockings and secure the stocking around the stems with an elastic band. Yellow sticky traps on the top of each pot of media in my op tend to catch adult gnats before they get too far out of control. 



Kuji said:


> That's good advice, though sounds a bit lonely. I will most likely have a couple house mates simply becuase I couldn't afford a single family home(rent) on my own. However these peeps are totally cool with it, of course, and are mature individuals as well and that's more then I can say for most of my stoner friends.


The problem with housemates is that if they don't have what we affectionately refer to as 'plausible deniability,' that is to say that if they could potentially have had access to your op or could have known about it, it's harder for them to say they didn't know a thing about it, should there be cause to ask them. In example, it's better to have an op in a locked garage/shed/etc for which only you have the keys than in a spare bedroom.


> Thanks for the great info on strains. Did your white widow and ak-47 do well in the system(Yeild/potency/problems)? I'm interested in these two well-known strains and it would be an absolute joy to grow my own.


WW & AK47 were poor yielders (esp WW) compared to ST4 and several others I tried. WW is a fabulous smoke and I'd grow it again on small scale for my own use, though. AK47 was unimpressive from beginning to end for me. I had an F2 cross of WW and Skunk #1 for a while, which we called 'White Skunk' which had most of the smoking characters of WW and most of the heavy yield of Skunk #1- can't recall what I did with that strain, but I think it may have been lost when I was moving the op at one time or another.



JESSICAJESS said:


> hi man real nice,haw much dos it cost to set up?


Geez, you WOULD ask that. 

Not sure, but I'd guess about $3-4000 if you started from a bare floor and worked your way up.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> WW & AK47 were poor yielders (esp WW) compared to ST4 and several others I tried. WW is a fabulous smoke and I'd grow it again on small scale for my own use, though. AK47 was unimpressive from beginning to end for me. I had an F2 cross of WW and Skunk #1 for a while, which we called 'White Skunk' which had most of the smoking characters of WW and most of the heavy yield of Skunk #1- can't recall what I did with that strain, but I think it may have been lost when I was moving the op at one time or another.


What would have been your best yielder and highest high?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

The heaviest yielders have been LUI, Skunk #1 & White Skunk. Best smoke was WW but that's based on its really nice flavour; it doesn't produce a smack-you-on-the-sofa stone. ST4 has a very pleasant smoking flavour, yields like mad, has a more indica-type heavy high and is more mould resistant than anything I've grown. Sk1 was a massive producer but susceptible to bud mould. Kinda defeats the purpose.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

Incidentally, if you're going to grow more than one strain in a SoG, pick strains that wind up similar in overall height. Height differences cause complexities, particularly in SoG ops where the plants are not movable within the op (i.e. NFT, bed of pellets, etc, not in individual pots of media).


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 9, 2008)

hey al.

any noticeable difference in the PM with your sulfur burner going? 

ohh and you should have been a pot teacher btw. 

lol how did you get into EE?
i took two years of it in trade school, after high school i never pursued it any further though. great stuff though. 
what was your main studies/work, since EE is a very broad field- if you dont mind answering, im not trying to get too personal.


----------



## SaRaNaC (Apr 9, 2008)

Al i was wondering if these pots are too small b/c finding 175mm pots in the states is not easy.
1 Gallon Black Trade Pot: Growers Solution

Just started some top44 seeds so ill have time to get them and some fytocell. Thanks for the help as always


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> hey al.
> 
> any noticeable difference in the PM with your sulfur burner going?


Too soon to tell, it's only been in there for a week or so. 



> ohh and you should have been a pot teacher btw.


Isn't that what I am? 



> lol how did you get into EE?


Was a licensed ham radio operator at age 8 onward, the rest is history. 



> what was your main studies/work,


RF power circuitry and antenna design. 



SaRaNaC said:


> Al i was wondering if these pots are too small b/c finding 175mm pots in the states is not easy.
> 1 Gallon Black Trade Pot: Growers Solution


Yep, they say those are 6.5" x 6.5". 175mm is about 6.9".


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 9, 2008)

RST599

73s!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

73 OM ES GUD DX HI HI CUL DE VK2 








Heathkit HW-101 forever!


----------



## Enigma (Apr 9, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 73 OM ES GUD DX HI HI CUL DE VK2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
What the fuk!??


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 9, 2008)

Enigma said:


> What the fuk!??


electronics jargon


----------



## Enigma (Apr 9, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> electronics jargon


 
I got that much lol.. I was justing wondering what the f*ck they were saying.

E


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 9, 2008)

Ham radio CW (morse) abbreviations. 

What Al said is roughly 

"Best regards old man, and 'good distance' -- haha!--See you later--from Australia."

Working a VK2 [Australia] station from the West Coast on a Heathkit would quite a QSO (conversation, contact) indeed. 

I might respond:

HI OM ES VG DX ES HW OZ ES B GUD TNX QSO 73s PSE QSL VIA ARRL

Hello old man, and it is very good distance [indeed]; how is Oz? Be well, thanks for the contact. 'Best Regards' -- [please send postcard via American Radio Relay League.]

That might not be quite right, I never actually worked CW stations--never had a transceiver for the lower bands and until a few years ago I wasn't even licensed for 'em.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 9, 2008)

Amateur radio operators had jargon LONG before the first byte was bitten. 

When conversing in Morse code (aka CW or 'continuous wave'), where each letter can have up to 6 presses of the telegraph key, words naturally are abbreviated by the radio operators. 

Of course, Mac translated my Morse code abbreviations spot on.  The abbreviations Mac & I used are no different from the abbreviated slang now used for a very similar reason in SMS or TXT messaging, where each letter/number may require as many as 7 keypresses. 

The radio I pictured was a Heathkit HW-101 radio transceiver. All vacuum tube, covers 3.5MHz-28MHz with CW or SSB (voice). Sold in kit form for the most part (though you could buy assembled radios at a high cost), very popular throughout the 1970s. Lots of ham ops used the venerable old Hot Water 101 to talk to the world long before you could easily post an email message for someone overseas. It was most teenaged hams' dream radio back in the day. 

I still have one. 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, back to the dope growing thing.


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

man.....why are clones so hard


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

Can't resist the ham crap for just _one_ more minute. 



Maccabee said:


> Working a VK2 [Australia] station from the West Coast on a Heathkit would quite a QSO (conversation, contact) indeed.


Well, VK/ZL wasn't rare DX from 8/9 land on 20, 40 & 75m with my HW101. It's about 100W PEP in those bands, about 80W up on 15 & 10m, so with a good antenna, if you could hear it, you could work it. Lots of /6 land hams kept skeds with VK with a mere 100W. When sunspot cycle opened the band on 10m, I worked VK with 12W (converted SSB CB radio) and a 1/4 wave whip on a car. Skilled hams know when the bands are open. 

Back in the 70s, if you wanted a 1500W PEP amplifier, for the most part, you had to build it yourself. It was usually possible to carry on a 4x8 - 5x9 ragchew with 100W from /6 with VK back then. These days, every lid with a credit card has a solid state kW in the boot of their car- and you can't hear a thing for all the slobs tuning up into their antenna instead of properly into a dummy load... 


/ham crap off


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

hey big al dude on a scale of 1-10 how hard is it to set up that sog every 2 week harvest system


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> man.....why are clones so hard


They're not, if you give them proper conditions. 

Read this-

*Photoessay**: A batch of clones in rockwool*

Might help.


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> They're not, if you give them proper conditions.
> 
> Read this-
> 
> ...


damn.....i tried it a few times and it juss says im being redirected with a big 420 thing in the middle of it weird


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> hey big al dude on a scale of 1-10 how hard is it to set up that sog every 2 week harvest system


Dead simple setup and very easy to operate/maintain- if you do it the way I have, with pots of absorbent media in a flood sys. 

If you introduce complexities like drip, DWC, aero etc. it can be lots and _*lots*_ more difficult. 

Picking the right space to build your grow will make or break the ease of setup and operation. Choose a securable space which has a durable floor, easy access to power, water and hopefully has some distance between it and potential snoops. Apartments are very tough places to set up an op. They have to be totally silent, totally scentless and are usually very hard to ventilate with those limits. If in an apt, a grow tent in a spare room or a freestanding wardrobe are better bets than a closet because they are easier to ventilate.


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Dead simple setup and very easy to operate/maintain- if you do it the way I have, with pots of absorbent media in a flood sys.
> 
> If you introduce complexities like drip, DWC, aero etc. it can be lots and _*lots*_ more difficult.
> 
> Picking the right space to build your grow will make or break the ease of setup and operation. Choose a securable space which has a durable floor, easy access to power, water and hopefully has some distance between it and potential snoops. Apartments are very tough places to set up an op. They have to be totally silent, totally scentless and are usually very hard to ventilate with those limits. If in an apt, a grow tent in a spare room or a freestanding wardrobe are better bets than a closet because they are easier to ventilate.


yea im good on that one though dude i live in a 3 floor house so im good there but i juss though i would ask ya about that sog every 2 week harvest or whatever cuz ive came across like 10 different threads of people talking about it and lots of different people talking about it so i was juss a lil curious to check it out


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> damn.....i tried it a few times and it juss says im being redirected with a big 420 thing in the middle of it weird


Hmm. I copied that link out of my sig- and you're right, it is 404ing (not 420 ya stoner )

Try this link

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> yea im good on that one though dude i live in a 3 floor house so im good there but i juss though i would ask ya about that sog every 2 week harvest or whatever cuz ive came across like 10 different threads of people talking about it and lots of different people talking about it so i was juss a lil curious to check it out


Start with post #1 in this thread and all will be revealed.


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Start with post #1 in this thread and all will be revealed.


how much does a set up like that cost juss curious?? and well i already got a 1000 watt ballast mh/hps switchable but i dunno i juss like the idea of some greenery every 2 weeks then rather waiting a couple months through a normal hydro grow


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

Not sure, but I'd guess about $3-4000 if you started from a bare floor and worked your way up.


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Not sure, but I'd guess about $3-4000 if you started from a bare floor and worked your way up.


wow 4 grand


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> i juss like the idea of some greenery every 2 weeks then rather waiting a couple months through a normal hydro grow


Of course, when starting up this system, it takes 8 weeks to load the pipeline. Nothing comes out until then, but it's harvest time every 2 weeks thereafter.


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

yea dude one thing i was thinkin about for like a hour trying to figure out is how do u end up with a harvest every 2 weeks when flowering usually takes 5-8 weeks??


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> wow 4 grand


Yep, a straight copy would be somewhere around there, for all new components at usual hydro shop retail rates. 

Keep in mind this system comprises 5 fully independent flood/drain tray systems, 1x 400HPS & 2x 1000HPS, along with cooltubes, centrif ventilation blowers, dehumidifier, thermostats, thermometers, lots of small electrics and cabling, nute & pH meters, nutes, pH test & correction goo, media, pots, sulfur burner, circ fans, air pumps & bubble curtains, drain valves, etc etc etc.

You don't have to start on this scale; you can start 1/2 scale with a single 1000 HPS. If you had 2x 900mm x 900mm trays, you could feed in about 12 plants every 2 weeks, running 48 total plants.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

pppfemguy said:


> yea dude one thing i was thinkin about for like a hour trying to figure out is how do u end up with a harvest every 2 weeks when flowering usually takes 5-8 weeks??


k, you can go read post #1 now.


----------



## pppfemguy (Apr 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> k, you can go read post #1 now.


im on it


----------



## knowledge seeker (Apr 10, 2008)

hey al, i am on page 43 of the threat and i've read up to this point many times i am serious about setting up you're set up to the tee, i have purchased all neccesary equipment, i am about 2 weeks away from being up and running which brings me to my problem, i live in a three family house i live on the top floor, never see landlord and everyone keeps to themself, do you think it is possible to use you're grow op and be able to control odor, this is the only problem i see is odor, any suggestions would be much appreciated seeker


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

Yep, you can use a carbon filter or an ozone generator. I use O3 gens.


----------



## blazingblunt1989 (Apr 10, 2008)

knowledge seeker said:


> hey al, i am on page 43 of the threat and i've read up to this point many times i am serious about setting up you're set up to the tee, i have purchased all neccesary equipment, i am about 2 weeks away from being up and running which brings me to my problem, i live in a three family house i live on the top floor, never see landlord and everyone keeps to themself, do you think it is possible to use you're grow op and be able to control odor, this is the only problem i see is odor, any suggestions would be much appreciated seeker


hey man i have never used one but i've heard a lot about ozone generators 
they remove odor form the air and also mold so its like killing 2 birds with one stone, heres a couple links , you can also build your own but probably be better to just buy one. look around on the internet you can most likly get a good deal

Ozone Generator Models - Ozone Generators, Ozone Generator Technology, Air-Zone.com Ozone Generator Systems

http://www.air-zone.com/models.html#xt120


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 10, 2008)

I think that figure is low Al. Almost none of us would have the necessary electric available for an op like yours. I spent a couple of grand on that, and I did all the work myself, so that is just parts and what I had to pay to upgrade the Mains service. 100amp or less service entrances are common here. I'd say more like $4000. just for the physical plant, and then start adding the equipment. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

blazingblunt1989 said:


> hey man i have never used one but i've heard a lot about ozone generators
> they remove odor form the air and also mold so its like killing 2 birds with one stone, heres a couple links , you can also build your own but probably be better to just buy one. look around on the internet you can most likly get a good deal
> 
> Ozone Generator Models - Ozone Generators, Ozone Generator Technology, Air-Zone.com Ozone Generator Systems
> ...


bb, I read their pages; they claim zero NOx emissions, but these are high-voltage corona type generators. Exposing air, with about 70-odd percent nitrogen and 20 something percent O2 to naked electrodes making a high-voltage corona _*WILL*_ generate oxides of nitrogen. I don't know how they have beaten this problem- or IF they have. 

NOx, mixed with water or humidity, creates nitric acid. This is small-scale acid rain- and will burn plant leaves. Corona type O3 gens are only suitable for use in the op's exhaust airstream. 

If you need to put an O3 gen amongst plants, you'll want an ozonator/ioniser based on a UV fluoro tube. I use the Uvonair fluoro ultraviolet ozonators. Very cheap to use, only requires dusting a couple times a year, tube replacement every 2-3 years. 



VictorVIcious said:


> I think that figure is low Al. Almost none of us would have the necessary electric available for an op like yours. I spent a couple of grand on that, and I did all the work myself, so that is just parts and what I had to pay to upgrade the Mains service. 100amp or less service entrances are common here. I'd say more like $4000. just for the physical plant, and then start adding the equipment. VV


Geez, VV- I only have 60A mains service, but it is 240V. That's bog-standard ordinary service for residential houses here. My op draws 14.7A with everything on, so it's not taking a major bite out of my max available mains supply. I haven't upgraded the mains service current capacity and really don't need to. WOuld be OK with another 2kW, if I could be bothered manicuring that much more dope....


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

VV, it occurs to me that I have not taken 110V growers into account. If my wall-plate line voltage was 110V, my op alone would need 32A service minimum. However, I'm blessed with 240V throughout the house. 

I know yanks have 220V ckts for water heat and electric ranges/dryers. Most grow gear you find is 110V, but you can certainly buy 220V HPS lighting in the US. You would have to pull your own 220 line into an op, and I can see as how that would be costly, as you describe, unless you can safely DIY.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 10, 2008)

just want to say on the cost note that i already have went and spent all the money on this setup on about the same scale with about the same periphials(fans,exhaust,etc.) im almost done building the room hopefully 2nite if i hammer down just got all the duct for the cooltubes.
anyway this is a short run down(us/canadian funds)

1-1000 watt hps/mh light $325
2-600 watt hps/mh light $550($275 each)
3-cooltubes $390($130each)
5-2'x4' flood tables $300($60 each)
1-inline 6" cooltube cool fan$210
1-4"squirrel cage fan exhaust$100
1-210cfm carbon filter $190
150-5.5" square pots $90
rockwool and hydroton $120
5 water pumps 1 air pump $150
nutes $85
roll of plastic $100
extension cords/duct/tapes/etc/etc probly $250

so a total of about 27-2800, i think i may have spent a little more and this does not include seeds that i bought or a clone box i built with floros and wood.

i tried shopping around to get deals and what not and like al said you can do this on any scale so it could be brought down to 1500 easy and still having a 2week crop

also i have only a 100amp sevice with 110 and i just split everything between 2 open circuits, one has only the washing machine on it, then half my op. the other circuit has my sump pump and the other half of the op.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 10, 2008)

I am wanting to hook a fan up to this thermostat that I bought any suggestions if this is possible here are the directions for the thermostat!


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 10, 2008)

oh yeah i just bought a fan controller and thermostat to wire like the one al posted the other day, that was another $100 there, but i know will be one of the best spends in the whole op.

could you tell us the name of the thermo insane to go with that diagram


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 10, 2008)

It is a Hunter model 42999b. I dont even know if this will work. It had been opened at lowes and was on clearance for $5 fig what the hell!


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 10, 2008)

thats 24 volts and i dunno where you are assumning us and you have either 110 or 220, that being said you cant just wire a thermo like that in. it requires a different powersupply then either 110 or 220. it needs 24 volts, it can be done and prob has been but i dont think it should be and others i think would back me in saying that. whats your budget try something like what al just posted the other day. get on ebay and type thermostat, youll find a garden or greenhouse thermo for maybe $40 and any seller who is selling them usually has fan contrllers for about the same price. then jus refer back to here for the wiring to make them work in tandem.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 10, 2008)

Cool thanks like Im not on a budget just seen it when I was at lowes for cheap. ill just get on ebay. thanks Cmak


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 10, 2008)

For exhaust can I run it like this Carbon Filter>>>Fan>>>>cool tube>>>>>>Cool tube>>>>>>exhaust exit. Then have a little smaller fan for intake. I would have the carbon filter and cool tubes towards the ceiling.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 10, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> For exhaust can I run it like this Carbon Filter>>>Fan>>>>cool tube>>>>>>Cool tube>>>>>>exhaust exit. Then have a little smaller fan for intake. I would have the carbon filter and cool tubes towards the ceiling.


 
There won't be any way to maintain temps with that.

Seperate fans for cooltubes and the room.

Check out my journal.. I'll have my carbon filters up soon.


----------



## knowledge seeker (Apr 10, 2008)

thanks al, i looked at the uvonair 5000 i saw it on ebay for 220 dollars american, that will be good for the room but i need something else to put inside the exaust tubes to the outside any suggestions... thanks seeker


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> total of about 27-2800


yep, that's the neighbourhood. 

Mind, it'll pay that back to you in the first or second harvest.



insanestang4life said:


> I am wanting to hook a fan up to this thermostat that I bought any suggestions if this is possible here are the directions for the thermostat!


The directions you've posted are too small to read. Try again in higher resolution or point us to the mfr's website which might have a copy in PDF. However, you may not need to go to that trouble. 

A thermostat is just a switch. It should have two sets of contacts; one set where the contacts open (disconnect) when the temperature exceeds the setpoint and another set where the contacts close (connect) when temp exceeds the setpoint. The pair that close on hi temp are for a cooling fan. The pair that open on hi temp are for a heating appliance. 

The instructions should tell you which set is which, probably by the notation 'normally open' and 'normally closed,' which by itself doesn't really tell you what's happening... because you don't know what they think 'normal' is. 

Throw $10 at a digital volt/ohmmeter at the local hdwe store (you need one anyway, admit it ). Use the ohms function to look at the contacts with the tstat setpoint temp set to above and below your present room temp to decide which to use if you can't divine it from their instructions.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

cmak's right about the Hunter tstat- it is designed to switch a 24V signal voltage (a very low current, perhaps 20-50mA) which operates a relay in a heater or aircon sys. It is not intended to switch the mains supply for a blower. You could add a 24V relay and a 24V doorbell (or something) transformer to that thermostat and make it work, tho.



insanestang4life said:


> For exhaust can I run it like this Carbon Filter>>>Fan>>>>cool tube>>>>>>Cool tube>>>>>>exhaust exit. Then have a little smaller fan for intake. I would have the carbon filter and cool tubes towards the ceiling.





Enigma said:


> There won't be any way to maintain temps with that.
> 
> Seperate fans for cooltubes and the room.
> 
> Check out my journal.. I'll have my carbon filters up soon.


aw hell, what do you need me around here for? 

stang, remember that your carbon filter will need a centrifugal blower. 

Also remember that centrif blowers are more efficient pushing into a high static load (like a filter) than trying to pull air through an obstructed intake. Filtering the intake will cause a low pressure condition on the intake side of the centrif blower's vanes, which are designed to operate at atmospheric pressure. The blades will 'stall' and airflow will not be efficient. Put the filter on the output end.

You can not use a thermostat on a fan which is driving a cooltube. A cooltube must have an air supply for all the time the light is on plus about 15 mins overrun after lights off, meaning a cooltube fan needs its own timer. It can not shut off just because the room airmass temp has met the setpoint. The lamp will overheat within the cooltube absent an air supply.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 10, 2008)

So I should have it like this Fan>>>>cooltube>>>>cooltube>>>Exit then another Fan>>>>carbon filter>>>>Exit or should it blow the air back in the room? Then a fan for intake this is the confusing part for me. Sorry I get everything else but, this exhaust confuses the hell out of me! LOL thanks for the patience guys


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 10, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> thats 24 volts and i dunno where you are assumning us and you have either 110 or 220, that being said you cant just wire a thermo like that in. it requires a different powersupply then either 110 or 220. it needs 24 volts, it can be done and prob has been but i dont think it should be and others i think would back me in saying that. whats your budget try something like what al just posted the other day. get on ebay and type thermostat, youll find a garden or greenhouse thermo for maybe $40 and any seller who is selling them usually has fan contrllers for about the same price. then jus refer back to here for the wiring to make them work in tandem.


Guy's the best kind of t-stat to wire in parallel to your exhaust fan is a attic exhaust fan t-stat which is a line voltage t-stat for 120v. You can buy them at Home Depot by the attic fans. A regular t-stat for a residential home works off of 24v control voltage and it could fry the t-stat if you wire 120v to it. You can buy 120v control voltage t-stat but you will have to get one at a HVAC supply house if you do not want to use the attic fan t-stat.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> So I should have it like this Fan>>>>cooltube>>>>cooltube>>>Exit then another Fan>>>>carbon filter>>>>Exit or should it blow the air back in the room? Then a fan for intake this is the confusing part for me. Sorry I get everything else but, this exhaust confuses the hell out of me! LOL thanks for the patience guys


Like this:







Pardon my usual kindergarten art, but you get the idea.



stickyicky77 said:


> Guy's the best kind of t-stat to wire in parallel to your exhaust fan is a attic exhaust fan t-stat which is a line voltage t-stat for 120v. You can buy them at Home Depot by the attic fans.


Bingo.  Great tip for Americans.


----------



## knowledge seeker (Apr 10, 2008)

thanks al, hey i got white widow and big bud what do you think would be a better strain for this op thanks seeker


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 10, 2008)

> Al B. Fuct said:
> 
> 
> > VV, it occurs to me that I have not taken 110V growers into account. If my wall-plate line voltage was 110V, my op alone would need 32A service minimum. However, I'm blessed with 240V throughout the house.
> ...


Yes we had that discussion a year ago or so. I did pull 220 into my room, I wired from the meter in and that is 220 200 amp. I have been recommending folks take a look at your control panel, especially the one that wants to know what he needs to run 4-1000 watt furnaces. Hope they are checking it out. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

knowledge seeker said:


> thanks al, hey i got white widow and big bud what do you think would be a better strain for this op thanks seeker


BB, hands down.



VictorVIcious said:


> Yes we had that discussion a year ago or so. I did pull 220 into my room, I wired from the meter in and that is 220 200 amp. I have been recommending folks take a look at your control panel, especially the one that wants to know what he needs to run 4-1000 watt furnaces. Hope they are checking it out. VV


Yes, I'm sure we did. 

200A worth of 220V would run not just a grow op but a small farm. 

The power panel is just pure necessity. Gotta have one.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 10, 2008)

knowledge seeker said:


> thanks al, i looked at the uvonair 5000 i saw it on ebay for 220 dollars american, that will be good for the room but i need something else to put inside the exaust tubes to the outside any suggestions... thanks seeker


Yep, you can use corona type O3 gens in your exhaust line. Corona types make a _*LOT*_ of O3, but as said, they shouldn't be in your plant area.


----------



## UshUsh (Apr 11, 2008)

An insane set up you have growing there man. I know this has been posted before but I think a grow journal would be a sick idea. If not , a picture update? Cheers.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 11, 2008)

isnt this a grow/teacher journal?

ive seen just about everything in the op, including the crop. is there more? forget the journal do them shits yourself and see it for yourself. thats what ima do...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 11, 2008)

Continuous harvest ops like mine look the same ALL the time. I do put up a pic now and again but it always looks like the last one for some reason.  This thread is about as close to a journal as you'll ever get out of me. 

You can browse my gallery and see all the pix I've posted without having to search this thread for them (and most are in this thread and the one about cloning), but then you don't usually see the commentary from the thread.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 11, 2008)

Thanks again AL and Sticky! Great idea with the Thermostat.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 11, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> Thanks again AL and Sticky! Great idea with the Thermostat.


i know eh? i went and bought a thermo and fan controller off ebay the night al posted that post. that things the shit cuz i was wondering what would happen to smell if the exhaust wasnt on at all. and well good ol al gives us the fix.. much appreciated here to


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 11, 2008)

Hey, AL the black line or box in your drawing is that the walls? So you would have your fans and filter outside of your grow room!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 11, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> Thanks again AL and Sticky! Great idea with the Thermostat.





cmak40 said:


> i know eh? i went and bought a thermo and fan controller off ebay the night al posted that post. that things the shit cuz i was wondering what would happen to smell if the exhaust wasnt on at all. and well good ol al gives us the fix.. much appreciated here to


It really is one of my very favourite tricks. Oddly enough, due to my local conditions, it's also one I _*don't*_ use in my own op. 

I don't have a carbon filter and if my vent system ran all the time, even at reduced speed, my RH would be hard to control. The RH in the area housing my op is always high, around 80-90%. I have a dehumidifier in the grow area but it can't treat a continuous stream of air- air has to spend a little time in the op for the dehumidifier to be able to work right. 

With continuous hi/lo speed ventilation, my op would also tend to get too cool in winter, especially during lights-off. Air temps in the area housing the op are somewhat cave-like, with outdoor air dropping to 0C a few times a year but the air on the op area only getting to about 10C min, closer to 14-16C on avg. 

One could add a second thermostat on the mains supply side of the paralleled tstat and speed controller, set to open its contacts when temps got too low.

Due to the low winter temps, I'm going to have to organise a way of recirculating the cooltube air through the op. I need the heat from the lights to keep the room up to temp during lights-on; the dehumidifier adds a little bit of heat during lights-off, enough usually to keep the room up to about 20C or so. For recirculation, I'll put in a couple of wye tubes and appropriately routed ducting so that air can be sourced from the room airmass and dumped back into the room for winter operation. I'll plug the unused wye ports with a wad of bubble wrap. Crude but effective. 



insanestang4life said:


> Hey, AL the black line or box in your drawing is that the walls? So you would have your fans and filter outside of your grow room!


Yep, sorry again for the kindy art. 

While many fans are have duct flanges on both sides to permit inline mounting, they do work more efficiently with no ducting, especially on the inlet side if at all possible. Convenience of mounting may dictate that you must have a run of duct on the intake, but keep it as short as you can.

The intake blower should be placed at floor level. To eliminate duct on its intake end, it is best right on the wall or as close to such an arrangement as possible. Shouldn't need any duct from the outlet side of the intake fan, but it often is helpful to have a small amount on it for trapping light if needed.

The exhaust blower can be inside the room, up near the ceiling as warm air rises. It can also be right above the ceiling as pictured or mounted high on a wall. Of course, if you are pushing room air into the carbon filter, it will have to be outside the room's airmass. This is the exit route for warm, moist air from the op.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 11, 2008)

hey Al have you seen this! 
The ultimate grow room


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 11, 2008)

Hey bigal I just read on the ultimate grow room. Nice find.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 11, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> hey Al have you seen this!
> The ultimate grow room


I had not seen this, but a closed-loop atmosphere is a possibility I eliminated early on for my op. 

Why?



> Obviously, large commercial grow rooms depend on industrial-strength air conditioning (A/C) units.


Aircon is tremendously expensive to run in a grow op. Worth the power consumption of at least one and probably two 1000HPS. 

An effective aircon system for my op would require a split system, which requires freon tubes be run from the indoor to the outdoor unit and then the system charged with refrigerant- by a professional installer. I don't think I want an aircon man in my op unless he were blind, deaf, noseless and had the world's worst short-term memory. 

The article rightly points out that it's hard to control scents in any way when you are reliant upon moving atmospheric air through your op, but I disagree on their opinion on ozonators. They work brilliantly for me. 

In theory, a closed loop system is ideal. It allows total control of temp, RH & CO2 as well as blocks any entry for insects and pathogens. 

In practise, unless you're running a monster op and can afford the cost, aircon is usually impractical. My intake air temps are usually low enough (normally 23C or well below) that I don't need aircon for cooling. Also, there's effective ways of controlling the scent emitted from ops the size of mine (which contrary to popular belief, is really pretty small in the overall scheme of things) that don't involve the ongoing cost of aircon.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 11, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I had not seen this, but a closed-loop atmosphere is a possibility I eliminated early on for my op.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


I just thought this article was pretty cool and wanted to share it with you guys. Yeah it would have to be a massive op in order for it to be worth it. Good read though!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 11, 2008)

It is pretty cool. It does give the casual reader a bit of an idea of how large commercial ops are set up- and how big they really are. These guys are fitting out entire houses as grow ops. 

Whole house grows get busted a lot. There's a number of reasons for that from suspicious neighbours noticing that no one lives at a given house and a person only shows up every few days, windows poorly camouflaged, fan noise, etc. 

Then there's the problem of an op that BIG- more than one person will be involved. That dope is being sold, not smoked amongst a small group of stoners. When there's big bucks involved, squabbles happen and it all comes to tears when an aggrieved party dobs in the other/s to the coppers. Happens all the time.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 11, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It is pretty cool. It does give the casual reader a bit of an idea of how large commercial ops are set up- and how big they really are. These guys are fitting out entire houses as grow ops.
> 
> Whole house grows get busted a lot. There's a number of reasons for that from suspicious neighbours noticing that no one lives at a given house and a person only shows up every few days, windows poorly camouflaged, fan noise, etc.
> 
> Then there's the problem of an op that BIG- more than one person will be involved. That dope is being sold, not smoked amongst a small group of stoners. When there's big bucks involved, squabbles happen and it all comes to tears when an aggrieved party dobs in the other/s to the coppers. Happens all the time.


I agree that is the way to go down. You are absolutely right on every point.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 12, 2008)

hey al regarding your moms...are they in your pad totally somewhere else or did you rig that 1x5 area in the space available and just seal it off? does it have its own ventilation? i built my room 7x13 with a 4x8 flower area in one corner and didnt really think about sealing the veg from flower til now....both of which are to be in this room. the rooms damn near done jus odds and ends to finish like the last 2 flood tables so i gota do something here in a couple days or so. ive thought of a couple ways to do it but the moms would get a shortage of fresh air...or i can make it so the flower gets less frsh air but id rather the ladder.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 12, 2008)

Yep, the mums are just in space avail in the flowering area. Only enough space cordoned off for the mums' flood tray and the circ fan, which doesn't even have enough room to osc, just blows on the plants. 

There's a double thickness curtain of panda film between the mums and flowering plants. The mumzone has its own thermostatically controlled 150mm exhaust blower and a circ fan. It has a passive intake from outside the op, but could (and probably should) suck dehumidified air from the flowering area.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 12, 2008)

whats up al?

why dont you use your regular batwing reflectors during the colder winter months instead of recirculating the air back into your grow room?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 12, 2008)

The standard lampholders were removed from the batwings to make room for the cooltubes. I would have to remove the cooltubes and ducting entirely to refit the original lampholders. Even if I recirculate the warm air back into the op for winter, I still want the cooltubes right where they are, taking heat away from the main mass of plants. I'll reintroduce the warm air at some far corner of the room- and may not bring all the warmed air back in. 

If I'm way clever, I may work in some sort of cable operated vane system, a bit like what is in your car's dashboard, to control mixing rate of warm air back into the op.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 12, 2008)

"Paging Mr. Goldberg! Paging Mr. Goldberg! Fuct on Line 1."


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 12, 2008)

Ah- it's not a Goldberg if it does something useful with the _fewest _steps possible- that's _totally _anti-Goldberg!


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, the mums are just in space avail in the flowering area. Only enough space cordoned off for the mums' flood tray and the circ fan, which doesn't even have enough room to osc, just blows on the plants.
> 
> There's a double thickness curtain of panda film between the mums and flowering plants. The mumzone has its own thermostatically controlled 150mm exhaust blower and a circ fan. It has a passive intake from outside the op, but could (and probably should) suck dehumidified air from the flowering area.


k this soundslike what i have to do EXCEPT i cant really get the mom area its own exhaust. i was thinking just letting the panda film down to about 2 inchs from the floor so fresh air comes in and out. im in a basement so goin up is out of the ? and the 2 walls its against are cement. the room is pretty much done and thats what i have to do because the flower area is far from dark in the off time


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 12, 2008)

never mind i could go duct it out but thats another exhaust fan and another 150 watts and more noise. this sucks i have the six inline for the cooltubes and a 4inch squirrel for exhaust. and you can hear it upstairs with no tv on, a little. i gotta put insulation in the ceiling to fix that but anopther fan geez...and another carbon filter(i will need one right?)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 12, 2008)

Use a couple of pieces of duct to take air from your flowering area and dump it back in there as well. 

You can make a couple of serpentine light traps with cardboard boxes and a hot glue gun. 

Kindy art time again-







Spray paint the interior bits flat black before assembly. 

Use one of these at ceiling level with a blower to exhaust the mums' area. Use another at floor level without a blower to create a light trapped passive air intake path to the mums. 

This will save you doubling up the exhaust & filtering systems.


----------



## knowledge seeker (Apr 12, 2008)

thanks al i anticipate another week before i can take cuttings, then i will be up and running.. al i live in the states i think it is a 120 service, i myself am not versed in electrical, however my best bud is a licensed electrician, my plan is to add a breaker to the box what size do you suggest.. and would i be able to run everything safely off of that...2 1000w 1 400w 60 w flouresent and multiple timers, pumps, basically everything to run the op thanks al


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok well, I got my hydro system all setup. I had 10 euforia seeds sprouted in rockwool 10/10. Under fluorescent grow bulbs 3 of them. I had the light about 1 inch away 24 hrs and 1 on the side even. I had a fan on them and they were looking good got a little tall I think but not sure. The plants got about 3 inches in 5 days. I had a heating pad under them and hand watered the plants twice a day to maintain 28 grams wet rockwool cubes. They were doing great working on 3rd set of leaves when I decided to put into my hydro system. I filled the pots up with hydroton to about 1inch over where the water level reaches. Then set the rockwool cube on the hydroton and surrounded the cube with it. I didnt put hydroton on top of the cube just on the side. I then put a 400hps lamp 1 foot away and watched temps and humidity temps stay 73 degrees and humidity is 40% my ph level is great I have been using 1/4 strength nutes since day one Fox Farm. I leave them for about 5 hours and come back they have all wilted away and fallen over flat. What happened?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 13, 2008)

knowledge seeker said:


> thanks al i anticipate another week before i can take cuttings, then i will be up and running.. al i live in the states i think it is a 120 service, i myself am not versed in electrical, however my best bud is a licensed electrician, my plan is to add a breaker to the box what size do you suggest.. and would i be able to run everything safely off of that...2 1000w 1 400w 60 w flouresent and multiple timers, pumps, basically everything to run the op thanks al


ks, it's been so long since I've had my nose in an American breaker box that I don't know what to suggest to you in specific terms of standard breaker values. However, I can say that you should not load a ckt any more than 80% of the breaker protecting that ckt and can ballpark you on what you should use.

A 1000HPS draws about 1100-1150W from the mains. At 120V, that's about 9A. That's the continuous operating current; it will draw about 30-40% more on startup for about 5-10sec. If on 120V, I'd have each 1000HPS on a 15A bkr to prevent nuisance tripping. Each 15A ckt should be wired with 10-12GA Romex. 

Your op is going to draw about 3500W with everything running, including exhaust & circ fans. I'm guessing you may want 3x 15A ckts to support that draw. Your pal will know the real gory details for US wiring standards.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 13, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> I then put a 400hps lamp 1 foot away
> 
> [...]
> 
> What happened?


You cooked your tender seedlings by having the 400 WAY too close. Baby plants can't take being hit with a ton of light and radiant heat. 

Raise that light to about 3-4' for the introduction of younguns to big lights. When the seedlings have fresh, lime-green new growth, perhaps a new pair of leaves or two, it's then safe to start dropping the light down. 

However, without a cooltube, a 400 should get no closer than about 18" from the leaves of 'sun hardened' maturing plants.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 13, 2008)

Damn!!! On seedlings I know you use clones but you gotta start somewhere should I put in rockwool like I did in a seedling tray under flurescnt with the heat mat then transfer to the hydro like i did if so how ong should i let them sit under the flurescant. Or should I sprout the seeds put in rockwool then put straight into the hydro with 400w 4ft away. If I put into the hydro should i burie the cube till its covered or just the sides like i did. thanks again for taking the time out of your life to help everyone.


----------



## knowledge seeker (Apr 13, 2008)

thanks al you have been very helpful, i'm sure i'll have more questions down the road but the difference between me asking is i won't ask questions that have already been answered in the posts thanks again


----------



## Kuji (Apr 13, 2008)

Would there be a significant benefit to using four 600w lights, one over each tray, rather than the two 1000 watter over each pair? 

If you were to use a 600w light per tray, would you buy a bigger trays?

EDIT: Oh, and how the hell do those commercial growers get away with 100 light grow houses? There electric bill 10,000 or so a month!?


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 13, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Use a couple of pieces of duct to take air from your flowering area and dump it back in there as well.
> 
> You can make a couple of serpentine light traps with cardboard boxes and a hot glue gun.
> 
> ...


i dunno what macs talkin about goldberg for, this and all the other gadgets youve made are probably the simplest answers for peoples problems there is. i love your ingenious mixed with simplicity you are THE true stoned slacker/mcgyver lol. thanks tho thats a perfect solution for me

as for the kindy art it makes things very simple for us so it works well

do you think those little 4" inline duct fans that only move like 130 cfm will be good? ill do a box just like you said one in one out and the room is 2x5x6 so thats only 60 cubic feet should be good ya?


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 13, 2008)

The cables and vents thing just sounded more like something I'd attempt than Al would approve of, that's all. I'm just a little surprised that he doesn't regard that kind of rigging as too sketchy to rely upon--but I suppose in principle it's simple enough to avoid most complications.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 13, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> Damn!!! On seedlings I know you use clones but you gotta start somewhere should I put in rockwool like I did in a seedling tray under flurescnt with the heat mat then transfer to the hydro like i did if so how ong should i let them sit under the flurescant. Or should I sprout the seeds put in rockwool then put straight into the hydro with 400w 4ft away. If I put into the hydro should i burie the cube till its covered or just the sides like i did. thanks again for taking the time out of your life to help everyone.


Yep, run your very young seedlings under fluoro light. They'll be there for around 2-4 weeks or until they have developed their 2nd set of 'true leaves' (5 blades or more). Then you can introduce them to an HPS, with much greater than normal clearance, until they have developed another couple of pairs of leaves. That should take about 7-10 days on the high & outside. Then you can start dropping the light down, perhaps 6" every couple of days until the light is about 18" from the nearest foliage. 

I've forgotten what media you intend to use. If you are nesting your cubes in pellets, just make sure the bottoms of the cubes are about 1/2" ABOVE the flood level. 



knowledge seeker said:


> thanks al you have been very helpful, i'm sure i'll have more questions down the road but the difference between me asking is i won't ask questions that have already been answered in the posts thanks again


heh, thanks 



Kuji said:


> Would there be a significant benefit to using four 600w lights, one over each tray, rather than the two 1000 watter over each pair?
> 
> If you were to use a 600w light per tray, would you buy a bigger trays?
> 
> EDIT: Oh, and how the hell do those commercial growers get away with 100 light grow houses? There electric bill 10,000 or so a month!?


I think a 600 over each tray would work better in the end than a pair of 1000s over each pair of trays. However, the pair of 1000s will give you good production and save you some dough. A 1000 draws about 1100-1150W from the wall socket. A 600 will pull about 660-680W. The excess above the lamp's rating is wasted as heat from eddy currents in the the ballast's iron cored inductor. Electronic ballasts eliminate (some of) this wastage but they are not nearly as reliable and cost 3-5x more than a std magnetic ballast. 

However, the 600s will be able to put more average lumens per sf on to your lighted space by virtue of the fact that each 600 will be closer on average to the individual trays, simply because there's 4 lights and not 2. 

6 o' one, half dozen... Either will work well. I'm not so sure there would be a_* huge*_ production difference, but I do think the 4x 600 will yield somewhat more and will likely produce better average bud density across the crops due to higher avg luminous intensity. 

I'd probably stick with 900mm x 900mm trays for either lighting setup.

Commercial ops quite often bridge out the meter, grow like mad for 3 mos and then split. If you bridge out a meter, you're just ASKING to get busted. If the billing dept notices your meter isn't spinning, they will send a techo to replace the meter. When the techo finds that the new meter is not spinning either but he can measure a current draw in the line, he knows what's up and will come back later with a supervisor- and probably a detective. 

About the only place I can think of where someone might build a whole house op and expect to stay and pay $10K bills (and I bet that's not far wrong) would be in places like Canada and Netherlands.



cmak40 said:


> i dunno what macs talkin about goldberg for, this and all the other gadgets youve made are probably the simplest answers for peoples problems there is. i love your ingenious mixed with simplicity you are THE true stoned slacker/mcgyver lol. thanks tho thats a perfect solution for me
> 
> as for the kindy art it makes things very simple for us so it works well
> 
> do you think those little 4" inline duct fans that only move like 130 cfm will be good? ill do a box just like you said one in one out and the room is 2x5x6 so thats only 60 cubic feet should be good ya?


heh, thanks- we aim to please. 

If you are actually getting 130CFM out of the duct fan (will vary with how much duct is attached and how many bends), it'd probably vent a 60cu ft space with a 400 in it reasonably well, but I think I'd opt for a 6" (150mm) blower. Most 150mms are rated about 190-200CFM.



Maccabee said:


> The cables and vents thing just sounded more like something I'd attempt than Al would approve of, that's all. I'm just a little surprised that he doesn't regard that kind of rigging as too sketchy to rely upon--but I suppose in principle it's simple enough to avoid most complications.


Well, I wouldn't consider such a rig if the PVC wye junctions could be placed so that I could easily get at them to plug the appropriate ports. Unfortunately, I have to crawl about in the crawlspace, which is actually above the grow room (don't ask, it's weird) to get to that area. It's a task that only really needs to be done a couple of times a year, so I may give it a miss- but I will say that with bulk bicycle brake cabling and bits, all things are possible.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

hey al i have 2 1000watt hps and i read that u dont know much about american breaker boxes. i wanna know if i could run 2 fans and both those lights without having a fire issue in my op? my op is 120v i was wanting to plug 1 light and 1 fan into 1 outlet and use another outlet on the other side of the room for 1 fan and 1 light only running 12/12. instead of 2 lights into 1 outlet? any help from anybody would be great thank you


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

BEEFCAK3 said:


> hey al i have 2 1000watt hps and i read that u dont know much about american breaker boxes. i wanna know if i could run 2 fans and both those lights without having a fire issue in my op? my op is 120v i was wanting to plug 1 light and 1 fan into 1 outlet and use another outlet on the other side of the room for 1 fan and 1 light only running 12/12. instead of 2 lights into 1 outlet? any help from anybody would be great thank you



Chances are that all outlets in the same room are on the same breaker. What is the rating of the breaker that controls the outlets in that room?


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

ok i went downstairs and looked where is was wired and into what breaker switch. ok i have 3 outlets and they are all tied together but them 3 outlets go to 2 switches inside the breaker box. the 2 breakers say on them (120/240v) so you know how you can flip the switch to either turn that power off or on to those plugs. anyways on that switch that you can flip theres a number on that and it says 20. and on that same switch it also says (10 ka) now the other big ass wire that runs to the other switch has a number 15 on it and says nothin else on it anywhere. it looks a lil thinner than the other switch to. i dunno if i should run those lights or not ? by the way when i recieved those lights i put 1 together and plugged it in and it came right on with no prob i guess im worried about fire or wires melting causing a fire. thank you for the help


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

heres a link to a pic of what one of them look like
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07036.jpg


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

Sounds like your ckt has a 20A bkr. Each of your 1000s will draw 9.1A continuously and about 12.5A for about 10sec on start up. 

Your 20A ckt will carry the pair of 1000s if you stagger their startups by a few minutes. However, this runs very close to the rating of the ckt. This leaves no headroom for other op gear nor what other items are running on the ckt in the household already. 

I suspect that this single 20A bkr runs all the outlets in all the bedrooms. 

I don't like to load a ckt more than 80% of the bkr rating. I would not put more than a 16A continuous load on a 20A ckt. I built my wiring for 30A but only pull 14.7 through it.

In your case, I would pull in a second 120V line on at least a 15A bkr and run one of your 1000s on that.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

alright. well i have 3 outlets that run to that switch and 2 other outlets that run to a 15a so im assuming i could run that 1 light and fan and run the other light and fan on that 15. see in the pic where it said (20) in white on the switch lever? the other one that i said has the number 15 on it. i would see myself being shocked to shit by trying to wire something like that lol. would the one with 15 be ok for the other? thank you for your help!


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

nothin else in the household runs into the same switch as in my basment. the basment has all together 6 outlets and the rest of the household runs into the box but into differ switches. if im wrong please tell me before i hooked'em up. the 20a runs 3 of the oulets downstairs and the other outlets go into the 15's


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

Ah, OK. Can you run a heavy-duty extension lead (rated for heaters & aircon units) to an outlet which is not on the 20A bkr? There's your second 120V @15A feed for one of your 1000s.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

i have no idea man i really dont. is that like a extension cord or is that something i can buy at a store? could ya send a link to what it is ?


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 14, 2008)

Beefcake, you done smoked yourself retarted. Yeah Home Depot, like the orange ones. I am actually using two now Al. 1 to my setup, and one to put power in my room overall. LoL.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 14, 2008)

ya you want to get a 12/3 extension cord. it means it has 12 guage wire and there is 3 wires. your store will have all the ex cords in 1 area look at them and look for one that has 12 written rather large on it. this means it has 12 guage wire in it and will already be 3 wire because that is standard now. anyway what al is saying...go get this ex cord and run from one of your circuits, sounds like you have a 15 amp open. then use the other circuit in the room (20 amp) you are already using and split the power down the middle, 1 1000, 1 fan on each.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 14, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Beefcake, you done smoked yourself retarted. Yeah Home Depot, like the orange ones. I am actually using two now Al. 1 to my setup, and one to put power in my room overall. LoL.


lmfao thats what iu was thinkin but i just wanted him to understand.

i love when someone says what IM thinkin


----------



## knowledge seeker (Apr 14, 2008)

hey al, i am going to use 6 inch pots instead of eight so i can get four per square foot, what are you using just regular plastic pots with holes in the bottom or a mesh bottom thanks seeker


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

kaos & cmak are dead right. Poor BC has in fact smoked himself retarded. 

Yes, I may have inadvertently used an Australianism by calling an 'extension cord' an 'extension lead,' but yes- one and the same. 

ks, regular old plastic pots with drain holes will do fine. 

Keep in mind that I misquoted the size of my pots in inches in my early posts in this thread. I said they are 8", which is _close_. They are 175mm, which is about 6.9". I have not had to use feet & inches in about 12 years and don't estimate well in those figures anymore.

Netpots are expensive and not necessary. I pay $0.45 per regular 175mm pot- netpots are 2-3x that figure (or more at some clip-joint hydro shops).


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

I do need to stop for a moment and discuss electrical wiring. 

I work with the presumption that anyone setting up a grow op has a relatively good understanding of how house wiring works. I expect prospective growers to know what a circuit breaker does, how chains of outlets are connected to the breakers and how to add up the current draws of all the gear to make sure one is not overloading a ckt. 

I don't want to have to go to the level of detail necessary to instruct how breaker boxes are wired or how to install breakers, for a couple of reasons; a) I don't want a person who is fully unfamiliar with AC power wiring to jump right in to their first wiring project- especially a grow op- on my instructions alone and b) it's been a long time since I've had my nose in a Nth American 120/220 breaker box and I can't give exacting detail on wiring methods and standard component ratings. 

You need to bring _*some*_ skills to the table here. If in doubt, I'm sure you can find references on the web for DIY wiring, but writers of such references will have a lot of the same concerns I do.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm missing some of my favorite links, can't find em at the moment, but here are some good basic introductions and references for home wiring.

Good tutorial on basic concepts:
Electricity Tutorial

Basic DIY'ers websites with basic coverage of most areas and applications:
Do it yourself home wiring information.
Do-it-Yourself Repairs & Basic Home Wiring Projects Articles


A university site with good general coverage, including good diagrams of standard home wiring schemes.

Household Circuit Concepts
one the site's diagrams:






A collection of home wiring How-To guides [the guides are in PDF format]
Recipes for Home Repair - Accurate Building Inspectors ® | 1-800-640-8285 |


A Q&A site:
http://www.ezdiyelectricity.com/?p=351

The wiring/electrical subforum on a DIY forum site: 
Electrical


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

Great stuff Mac, thanks for that.


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 14, 2008)

I did all the wiring for my room and I had never even been in a breaker box other than too switch breakers on or off. It is really not hard for americans not saying other countrys cant just that everything is usually labeled pretty clear if you can read "USUALLY". Look in your box there should be stickers in there that tell you what kind of breakers to use in your box. Go to lowes and ask the guy in that section or home depot for that breaker. I was going to hook up 2 15's but decided it is way cheaper to just put one 30 in because you only have buy one breaker and run one wire versus 2. Anyways on the side of the new breakers it will tell you what wire size you need for that breaker. Buy enough wire to reach from your box to wherever you are going to need it leave a foot or two extra just in case. Strip the end of your wire there should be 3 wires one copper with no cover, one white, and one black. The copper is your ground on your plug in there will be a green screw make a hook with the end of the copper wire and screw the green screw down on it. On one side at the top it will say hot side hook black one on that side there will be 2 screws on each side. Then on the other side hook the white one too the top screw. This receptacle is now wired. If you want to go on to another plug in like in my case since I am running a 30 instead of two 15's take another piece of wire and strip it put the copper with the other copper wire with the green screw. Put the black wire on the same side of the first plug in as you did earlier just on the screw below it. Then hook up the white wire to the screw below the other white wire you hooked up earlier. Then run that wire to the next plug in and wire it the same as you did the first just the bottom of each plug in the 2 screws will be left empty unless you wanna go to another plug in. Then go to your breaker box there will be a screw on the side of your new breaker you bought strip the wire and again you will have a copper, black and white. Take the black wire and put it into the screw on the new breaker then you simply lay the new breaker just like all the other ones in the box and push it in. All it does is snaps into place. The other two wire will go to the top of your breaker box there will be a metal rack with a bunch of screws in it and a lot of white and copper wires running into it from all the other wires in the box. Just find two spots that are empty and put the copper in one and the white in another one. Plug something in like a fan or something you dont really care about just in case something happens you dont screw up something expensive. Then turn the main breaker back on, then turn the new breaker you just wired up on. Presto you should have power! Im not saying every system is like this but I know any boxes that have been updated in the last i dunno 20 years should be. If you still have fuses in your box I dunno what to tell you actually yes I do GET A NEW BOX. Anyways just trying to help out might be useless information. But, I did it and it works great.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 14, 2008)

i have a feeling ppl are going to get hurt....

maybe the best idea would be to go to home depot, lowes, or any other hardware store and talk to a person that worked in the trade. ask them how to wire a new circuit to an addition you are building. if you dont fully understand any part of what is being said, you are better off using less lights that wont overload your ckt. also if you want to go bigger, you could always (if you have the room) go to another room in the house. 


if you know nothing about electricity it will take you a long time until you are competent setting up new circuits from your main service panel. when inside the main service panel there is 240v present which can throw you across the room if your not careful/ignorant(or you will latch on possibly to your death). 

anyways, just keep the old saying "better safe than sorry" in mind when working with high voltage.

JMHO


----------



## n3wgr0w3r (Apr 14, 2008)

hey, obviously by my name im a new grower im planning on doing the sog but i have "inseficiant" funds is there any way i can do this with a tight budget? 200 dollars


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 14, 2008)

i did and suggest anyone who doesnt know to do the same and that is go get that home depot electrical book for $25 and read it. it is so helpful and basic for the simplist minded to read and understand it. it walks thru putting a new circuit in from beginning to end and yes if you still have ?s then like wetarded said go talk to a professionnal. you are spending the money on the op!!! spend the money on a book for some lifetime knowledge and safety


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 14, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i did and suggest anyone who doesnt know to do the same and that is go get that home depot electrical book for $25 and read it. it is so helpful and basic for the simplist minded to read and understand it. it walks thru putting a new circuit in from beginning to end and yes if you still have ?s then like wetarded said go talk to a professionnal. you are spending the money on the op!!! spend the money on a book for some lifetime knowledge and safety


good advice... i would rep you but im spent out for another 24 hours or so

ps, i second his last post^^^^^^^^


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

yep, I spoze it all boils down to 'know WTF you're doing or find someone who does.'

Just another example of how the War On Some Drugs causes unnecessary harms. Security dictates that you won't just be ringing up Jim & Joe's Electrical Services to have your op wired. You can find news items any day of the week about ops busted after the fire brigade had to extinguish an electrical fire, doubtless caused by an amateurish wiring job.

An extension lead to reach an outlet elsewhere in the house which is on another bkr is a total bodge. If you _*have*_ to do this, you should only buy heavy duty (heater/aircon) rated ext leads or better yet, make your own extension out of HD plugs and sockets and Romex cable.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 14, 2008)

also if your using extension cords. dont run more that 80% of the cables rating, as al has previously said. 

also make the run as short as possible(dont use 100ft cable/extension cord if you only need 25 or 50ft) and make sure you dont coil any excess wire in a spool on top of its self because that could cause extra heat and potentially hasten the melting of the protective coating. hence short circuit or fire.




edit- also amps(A)= power(P)/voltage(V).... idk i guess that might help someone?????


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

More resources:

Very good encapsulation of the electrical/hydraulic analogy, with detailed subsections:
Water circuit analogy to electric circuit

Actually, the whole section of Hyperphysics on electricity and magnetism is good. The diagram linked above comes from here.
HyperPhysics Concepts


Free Education Network courses on Electrical Engineering:
Electronics Supersite

Articles collected by a U-Dub EE prof:
Articles on "Electricity"

Lessons in Electric Circuits -- A Free Textbook [covers DC to semiconducters and beyond]
Lessons In Electric Circuits

Wire Parameter Calculator:
AWG

Voltage Drop Calculator:
Voltage Drop Calculator JavaScript

AnalyzeThat: web-applications for circuit design & problem solving
Electrical Engineering - Circuits, Parallel, Series, etc.

Finally, Ye Olde VIPR chart. I spent a while staring at this way back when I learned basic electronic theory for FCC certification.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> I was going to hook up 2 15's but decided it is way cheaper to just put one 30 in because you only have buy one breaker and run one wire versus 2.


While this will work, when you run your small current draw devices on this 30A ckt, run them through a power strip that has a built-in 10A breaker. A continuous 25A through a failed low current device that does not have its own fuse (such as a fan with a locked motor bearing) equals a fire, where a 10A bkr would trip. I've seen power strips with appropriately sized ckt bkrs save ops from major fires from just such a cause.

In general, when selecting a bkr for a job, it should not be significantly larger than needed to run the device. A 30A bkr may as well not be there at all if a small device decides to go short. Of course, you need all those 30amps at the other end of your line for your lighting, but put a smaller ckt bkr in series with low current devices for safety.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i did and suggest anyone who doesnt know to do the same and that is go get that home depot electrical book for $25 and read it. it is so helpful and basic for the simplist minded to read and understand it. it walks thru putting a new circuit in from beginning to end and yes if you still have ?s then like wetarded said go talk to a professionnal. you are spending the money on the op!!! spend the money on a book for some lifetime knowledge and safety


cmak is right on. It's very helpful to have a good print reference on hand. 

This one is VERY cheap-- $10 online, was cheaper at my hardware store -- and surprisingly comprehensive:









Step By Step Guides said:


> [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] How the home electrical system works.[/FONT]
> [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]How  to turn off the main power supply.[/FONT]
> [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The three ways to get power to your new wiring job.[/FONT]
> [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]How the ground wiring works in plastic boxes.[/FONT]
> ...


I have it and am very pleased with it. Their room finishing guide might also be helpful for those who need to create a growing area in basements or attics and don't have much experience with carpentry or basic construction

. The online store is at Step By Step Guide Book Company (home house repair do it yourself guide book room finishing plumbing wiring outlets switches power framing drywall doors paneling ceiling time toilets bathroom kitchen sinks bathtub shower drainage)


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 14, 2008)

Yep sounds good on my 30 amp i am only running 2 1000 watters. I have other plug for the small stuff.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 14, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> More resources:


i bet you lost them on the most of that  especially the chart.... lol


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> In general, when selecting a bkr for a job, it should not be significantly larger than needed to run the device. A 30A bkr may as well not be there at all if a small device decides to go short. Of course, you need all those 30amps at the other end of your line for your lighting, but put a smaller ckt bkr in series with low current devices for safety.


Those who have a ton of plug management to do and are concerned about power draw (as well as equipment protection) might do well to pick up a few of these (one per circuit and/or plug point, depending upon your layout.) Power conditioners/distribution centers like this typically have built in fuses or breakers. The breaker in this one is 15A. You could plug a power strip with a smaller breaker into one of its outlets if desired, although you don't want to daisy chain like that if you can avoid it.

ART PS 4X4 Power distribution center:







If you're in it for the long haul, this kind of stuff makes sense (to me, at least.) If all you're interested in is power conditioning and a circuit breaker there are cheaper options (like the basic Furman models) but this one is _metered--_line voltage and the amp load of the equipment connected! I like meters. 

For instance I could see mounting this in a home made rack frame, above an outlet & switch panel made from Al's plans. (The ART4x4 has light pipes that pull out of the front to illuminate equipment faces below.)You could even mount the display boxes for remote sensors, if you're fancy like that.

Here's the manufacturer's hype:


> The PS 4x4 features a backlit linear meter to monitor input voltage, which gives the user a familiar analog-style readout when monitoring voltage from a power source. The PS 4x4 has a backlit linear ammeter showing load current in amperes. This additional meter gives an analog "real-world" look at how much power you are using; hence the term "power station".
> ...
> The PS 4x4 also features ART's "4x4" distribution on the back of the unit -- four of the eight rear outputs are 1.25 inches apart. This allows the user to plug in wide power cables and multiple wall wart devices, and still have eight total power outlets to choose from.
> 
> Built into the PS 4x4 is a surge and spike protection system, designed to protect powered equipment from harmful electric surges and spikes. The unit also has RFI and EMI filtering, a 15 amp breaker, and a total power capacity of 1800 watts. The PS 4x4 also features a front-located on/off power switch (which lights up when turned on), and a front-mounted circuit breaker reset switch. The rugged, all-steel chassis occupies 1U rack spaces and is intended for installation into standard 19 in. equipment racks.


$85 - $100, depending on where you order it. 1800 watt capacity. Available from various studio equipment suppliers. 



I like Zzounds: ART PS4X4 Dual Metered Power Distribution Unit from zZounds.com!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> If you're in it for the long haul, this kind of stuff makes sense (to me, at least.)


Might be good for computers, recording studios, etc but waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy over the top for a grow op. 

Thanks for thinking about it, anyway.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

Yeah, maybe. It can't hurt, though. I have a cheaper Furman model on my HPS, as my building power is fairly dirty and tends to have a lot of voltage fluctutation and line noise. Plus, I don't want EMI from ballasts to be wreaking havoc on my computers, hifi & studio equipment, radios, etc in the next room over.


----------



## panhead (Apr 14, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Yeah, maybe. It can't hurt, though. I have a cheaper Furman model on my HPS, as my building power is fairly dirty and tends to have a lot of voltage fluctutation and line noise. Plus, I don't want EMI from ballasts to be wreaking havoc on my computers, hifi & studio equipment, radios, etc in the next room over.


Cary Audio used to make an excellent device called the CAD5500 "Black Box" for such things as EMI & RFI,they made 2 different models & were pretty cheap,i have one in my main system & another in the home theater.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

lol yea i got lost in reading that stuff. before i do anything i will have a family member that knows how it works cause they used to work with this stuff as a job. thank you for all your help. you guys over did yourself on trying to make a "smoked out retard" understanding household wiring lol.


----------



## 1freezy (Apr 14, 2008)

I have been working slowly on a project like this for a couple months and I just found this post. I have 2 cabinets with 4 sections (2 a piece) for the flowering. All the plants will have suficiant light but 1 of the 4 flowering chambers will have a lot of added/extra light from all around. At what 2 week interval should the plants get the extra light. I know the whole time would be good but thats not an option.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

panhead said:


> Cary Audio used to make an excellent device called the CAD5500 "Black Box" for such things as EMI & RFI,they made 2 different models & were pretty cheap,i have one in my main system & another in the home theater.


Yeah, Cary's a cool company. If you're theater is all Cary gear, I'm jealous. 

I couldn't find anything like the CAD you mentioned from them these days. 

I know that the cheaper Furman units are easy to find, and (fairly) effective in terms of isolating EMI:
Furman M8X Merit Series Spike Protector from zZounds.com! [it's not just a surge protector, it's a basic power conditioner.] 

Funnily, it's not great for audio purposes (they won't get rid of a nasty 60 hz hum like the better models will), but it's fine for protecting small electronics, computers, isolating/protecting grow equipment, etc. These units aren't _all _ that much more than the heavy duty metal bodied shop model 8-outlet strips at the hardware store.

Not something that most people need to worry about, but if you have special concerns like flaky breakers, or a lot of burnt out bulbs due to dirty power it's something to consider.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Yeah, maybe. It can't hurt, though. I have a cheaper Furman model on my HPS, as my building power is fairly dirty and tends to have a lot of voltage fluctutation and line noise. Plus, I don't want EMI from ballasts to be wreaking havoc on my computers, hifi & studio equipment, radios, etc in the next room over.


There's a lot more justification for keeping hash from the HPS out of the rest of the wiring than protecting the light from any crappy AC, that's for sure.  

At the end of the day, an HPS light is just a big fat stinking resistor and really rather sluggish in responding to line fluctuation. It'd make a lot of heat in the inductor, but I bet you could run an HPS on a square wave. 



BEEFCAK3 said:


> lol yea i got lost in reading that stuff. before i do anything i will have a family member that knows how it works cause they used to work with this stuff as a job. thank you for all your help. you guys over did yourself on trying to make a "smoked out retard" understanding household wiring lol.


Good that you have access to someone who can discreetly supervise your efforts. No dope is worth dying in a house fire over. 

I hope you have the magnanimity to let us poke you in the ribs from time to time. This would get really boring after a while if we couldn't have the odd tease and wisecrack.


----------



## panhead (Apr 14, 2008)

Maccabee said:


> Yeah, Cary's a cool company. If you're theater is all Cary gear, I'm jealous.
> 
> I couldn't find anything like the CAD you mentioned from them these days.


I have a few Cary peices but my main Hifi & HT are both Mcintosh all the way,the cad5500's were made in the late 80's or very early 90's.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

well i went to the breaker box and had my woman go around the house and i stayed at the box. as i flipped each switch i had her find what switch ran what and what was amp for that switch. i had 2 (20A) and 1 (15a) that was not running anything in the house, so i checked everything many times. i have the 2 20a running sperate outlets which thats all they are there for no other outlets run to them 2 (20a's) so im gonna use one of each for the lights and the other 15a for the fans and other equipment. i set-up the lights and let them run on those outlets for about 30mins i monitored the wiring "felt if it got warm or hot" which will cause a fire. they stayed chilled even with all lights on in the house. im gonna continue to check up on it for awhile to see any changes but so far so good. i made sure that all oulets i wanted to use were ok to run and i think im alright. cause i know i can run 1 light set-up on a 20a. thank you all for the help and advice you all have been great to me....one more q? how many plastic pots would be the best for the 2 1000watters and how far apart should i space them 2 lights apart from each other? any advice on that part if not thank you anyways......i have argo-sun ballast with maxwing reflectors and the bulbs are hortilux hps.


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

McIntosh is very nice too. I can't afford gear like that, I get by with the nicer Yamaha and Denon stuff from the 90s, with some NAD (plus some Kenwood and TEAC stuff I'd like to replace. The Kenwood stuff never sounded great and is wearing out, and the TEAC gear sounds OK but still is not as close to real TASCAM stuff as I had hoped.)

Beefcake, if you look through the thread you should find a few different discussions of spacing plants, trays and lights.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

your joking right??? yoou want me to scroll through "143 pages" to find that i would be sitting here till christmas trying to find it when somebody could just type it in a min, not taking a shot at ya. see how long it took ya to tell me to look through the thread. instead of telling me that you could of just gave me the advice it would be a lil easier for me.....


----------



## Maccabee (Apr 14, 2008)

See the "search this thread" link @ the top?

I can't help you directly because I don't have that kind of space or those kind of lights--maybe someone else will.

But--give a man a fish, feed him for a night; teach a man to fish and feed him for the rest of his life.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

my grow space dimesions are 14 ft long by 8 ft wide 8 ft tall.....and thanks for the awesome analogy. to teach someone how to swim jus throw'em in the lake sink or swim....


----------



## 1freezy (Apr 14, 2008)

1freezy said:


> I have been working slowly on a project like this for a couple months and I just found this post. I have 2 cabinets with 4 sections (2 a piece) for the flowering. All the plants will have suficiant light but 1 of the 4 flowering chambers will have a lot of added/extra light from all around. At what 2 week interval should the plants get the extra light. I know the whole time would be good but thats not an option.


Please anybody competent!


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

anybody impotent???


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

are your words chewy or crunchy???

But--give a man a fish, feed him for a night; teach a man to fish and feed him for the rest of his life.[/quote]


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 14, 2008)

Al has his lights over two tables the are 2'7" square or about 820mm I believe. Since the lights are over seperate tables you could center them over the two tables they are going to cover, uhhhhh ....I have an idea, buy some pots and set them out in the area you are considering and put your light above them and look at them. When you have it like you like it, count the pots. Thats how many will fit. VV


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 14, 2008)

thanks victor. yea i was thinkin of doing 40-45 under each light with trimming 1/3 of the plant as al does it for sog....so anotherwards im gonna clone 20-25 put under 1 light and then clone then another 25 untill both lights are full, so i wwould be pullin 20-25 in every 2 weeks. thank you all for the help and advice i soaked all that into my 2 brain cells i have left hehe


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

harvesting time, folx. bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse/bless/curse

cu in a few days.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 15, 2008)

my most fav part of the grow is watching them go from a seed to a beautiful bushy plant with huge colas, and ofsourse the harvest! ive not done of this size before, it gets a lil intimidating. ive been growing for 3yrs and i still learn everyday and always will. keep up the good work al !


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 15, 2008)

hey does anybody have any good ideas or good experiences with nutes? i need to buy some and have not choosen yet. my grow is soil....i was lookin into advance nutrients but my past experience with nutes is fry'd roots stunted plants so i gave up on that. i know i need a ph ppm pen and when it comes time to mix theres where i screw up any advice on this would be great thanks...


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 15, 2008)

BEEFCAK3 said:


> hey does anybody have any good ideas or good experiences with nutes?


just get any hydroponic nute.... they all work!!!!

GROWFAQ

after you read that^^^^^ 

read this below- try and do the whole thing, that way you wont have to ask as many noob questions.... its like teaching you how to fish 

GROWFAQ

al said he was going to be gone for a couple so i figured i would take the initiative and help a fellow RIU'er out  
the grow FAQ should be every noobs best friend..
good luck with all your growing endevors


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 15, 2008)

he said hes doing soil....
go with any major supplier they are all pretty much that same and give you the same N-P-K...its opinion. i use advance nutes in my op and i use DNF in an op i share with someone. as for nute burn you dont give them full strength til about weeks 4-6.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 15, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> he said hes doing soil....


ya, there are hydro organic nutes.... the reason i say hydro is to ensure you get all the needed micro nutrients also..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *1freezy*
> _I have been working slowly on a project like this for a couple months and I just found this post. I have 2 cabinets with 4 sections (2 a piece) for the flowering. All the plants will have suficiant light but 1 of the 4 flowering chambers will have a lot of added/extra light from all around. At what 2 week interval should the plants get the extra light. I know the whole time would be good but thats not an option._





1freezy said:


> Please anybody competent!


 a) Please don't expect nor demand instant answers from anyone. You won't get far. Patience! Nobody here is paid to answer your queries, myself included.

b) "suficiant" light?  Sounds like you're using fluoros. Fluoros emit low-intensity light. Sufficient for clones, seedlings and slow-vegging your mums, but not sufficient for flowering, at least if you want something other than sparse, fluffy buds. If you have different lighting in different phases, use your brightest lighting (remembering of course that _*lumens don't add*_- 100x 1500lm CFLs are NOT brighter than any HPS) in wk6 and after.



BEEFCAK3 said:


> hey does anybody have any good ideas or good experiences with nutes? i need to buy some and have not choosen yet. my grow is soil....i was lookin into advance nutrients but my past experience with nutes is fry'd roots stunted plants so i gave up on that. i know i need a ph ppm pen and when it comes time to mix theres where i screw up any advice on this would be great thanks...


 If you're planning on using hydro nutes, what's with using soil? Select a proper inert hydroponic medium for your style of grow. 

If your past experience with nutes is fried plants, you're quite right- of COURSE you need a nute meter. It ain't the nutes, it's you! Moreover, you want to be fairly confident that there's NO nutrient value in whatever medium you use if you're using hydro nutes. You can't measure the nutrient strength contained in soil with your EC meter, but that nutrient value will be added to whatever strength of hydro nutes you add. Great way to burn plants.



We TaRdED said:


> just get any hydroponic nute.... they all work!!!!


 True. Nutes is nutes for the most part. Those from larger makers will be more consistent in quality.



cmak40 said:


> as for nute burn you dont give them full strength til about weeks 4-6.


Depends on what you think 'full strength' is. Plants can handle 1400ppm @ 5.8 straight out of my clonebox, where they've gotten zero nutes since they were cut off the mums. I use the same 1400ppm nute mix for all my flowering plants, from day1 of flowering to harvest. 



We TaRdED said:


> ya, there are hydro organic nutes.... the reason i say hydro is to ensure you get all the needed micro nutrients also..


Any decent quality potting soil ought to contain enough organic NPK and (especially) micronutes to raise plants already (but will need augmentation several times before harvest). Not a good idea to use hydro nutes in soil- that nutrient strength will add to the strength of whatever nutes exist in the potting soil. If you must do this, use a nute mix no stronger than 1/4-1/2 the nute maker's recommended strength.

If you can buy potting soil, there's nothing stopping you from doing it correctly. Just buy proper inert media for hydroponics. DON'T use hydro nutes with soil. There's no advantage to using hydro nutes in soil as opposed to using good soluble fertilisers intended for soil- in fact, as said, there's plenty of _*disadvantages*_.

This being a thread about a hydro op in the hydroponics/aeroponics section of this board, this will be the limit of my comments about soil.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 15, 2008)

Check out Foxfarm. They have a good organic line of nutes that is good for hydro or soil. I have had good luck with the Foxfarm nutes. My plants seem to love them.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 15, 2008)

i guess i was wrong....... sorry..... i just...... ill save the excuses. lol

hows it going al? i wish i could give you a hand trimming your beautiful herb plants at no charge


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

While it's on my mind (and before I tear off to go do more harvesting), I'm going to bust a few marijuana growing myths, for those just joining this thread. 

*Critical thinking 101 - mind the buzzwords - "hydro" ain't "tha bomb":*

* There's no difference whatsoever between the resin/THC yield of a particular strain raised in hydroponics as opposed to a good soil mix. Plants raised in hydro will develop more vigorously and will gain overall size faster only due to greater levels of oxygen supplied to the roots. You'll get lots more bud out of hydro and it'll be quicker than soil in comparative development by a couple of weeks, but absent slower performance and lower yield, the THC you get from soil grown as opposed to hydro will be identical for any given strain. 
*
MO and MO!*

* MORE is almost NEVER better. Plants are not V8 engines, where more air & fuel always equals more output. With plants, there's 'too little,' 'just right' and 'dead.' MORE will get you in trouble every single time with nutrients/ferts and watering. The only things where more is ALWAYS better (up to a certain practical limit where 'more' makes no appreciable difference) is with luminous intensity applied to the plants and ventilation. You get more luminous intensity from a brighter light, not by putting more dim lights in the same area.

*Beware snake oil.*

* It's traditionally been hard to get good information about growing cannabis, but forums like this help the situation quite a lot. Makers exploit your ignorance to line their pockets. The vast majority of 'magic sauces' on sale in hydro shops are somewhere between utterly useless and harmful. They are profit makers for the hydro shop, not grand and magical plant growing adjuncts. It absolutely amazes me what a cool looking package label will do for sales. Since most dope growers are young men, magic sauce sellers often leverage the 'high performance' image of popular motor oil packaging. There's not much between the appearance of a jug of Castrol oil and most products in a hydro shop. 

Before you buy anything, aside from deadset basics like nutes and H2O2, search the web for _*real*_ scientific botanical evidence from independent researchers (preferably peer-reviewed writings from the horticultural colleges of big universities) that the active ingredient actually has some benefit. In hydroponic systems, there's zero benefit to adding any carbohydrate, sugars (including molasses), etc- and in fact, these 'carbo load' sauces will cause probs in non-organic hydro ops. Carbs are great for feeding bacteria, mould, fungi, etc. but cannabis plants won't absorb them at all. There should be _*no*_ organisms (beneficial or otherwise) in a non-organic hydro op aside from the cannabis plants. Don't get me started on crap containing beeswax and brewers' yeast. 

Drinking water from your tap is great for hydro ops, chlorination is your friend. Chlorination suppresses pathogens in the pipes and will protect an open tank of nutes for 2-4 days, until the chlorine evaporates. My fully organic veggie patch out in my back yard gets most of its water out of the garden hose. In just one example, I've got a cherry tomato plant that is 11ft tall and threatening to get bigger. RO & distilled water are expensive wastes of time. Unless you have highly saline bore water, tapwater is just fine. In 20 years of growing, I've never seen a problem in a grow op caused by municipal water.

It's amazing how LITTLE you really need to grow great plants. Start with ONLY nutes, pH correction as required and H2O2. Once your op runs reliably- _*and*_ you are able to tell the difference between problems caused by a new additive and a problem induced by a fault in the grow room's operation, THEN think about adding things, one by one and very carefully observing the plants for changes. 

New growers should not try to innovate. Find an example of an op that's making great plants and copy it to the letter. If it works well for someone else, it'll work well for you. 

If you have some problem in the op, go back to first principles. Make sure your op is providing the conditions it should be- don't rush out and buy some magic sauce to try to cure problems.


----------



## RandomJesus (Apr 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> While it's on my mind (and before I tear off to go do more harvesting), I'm going to bust a few marijuana growing myths, for those just joining this thread.
> 
> *Critical thinking 101 - mind the buzzwords - "hydro" ain't "tha bomb":*
> 
> ...


this is in my opinion is some of the best advice I've seen on RUI.
any aspiring grower should read this. well done, Rep point coming your way.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> hows it going al?


just busy.



We TaRdED said:


> i wish i could give you a hand trimming your beautiful herb plants at no charge


I wish you could, too. However, it's just _*so*_ hard to find a blind, deaf manicurist with severe memory problems these days. 

I follow my own advice about being a one man band really _*very*_ strictly. I don't allow anyone to help with my op. When I move buds, I use my own transport (never a borrowed vehicle nor as a passenger in another's) and am always alone. If I ever get busted, I'm going to wear the lot, not share it.


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 15, 2008)

very good points al. the only way i could get the medium ur using is to order it and i know you cant reuse that stuff this would be the first for me to see that kinda of medium..


----------



## Kuji (Apr 15, 2008)

My dream set up would be two 1000 watt lights over four trays for the first four weeks of flowering and then an individual 600w for the last 4- Producing hopefully 18-25 ounces a week. But when starting, I'm going to flower a few strains all the way through in one tray to see which produces the best bud for SoG. 

I forgot, what strength and mixture of nut solution do you dip your clones in? 

Also, do you think if you vegged the clones for another 1-2 weeks you would get a bigger yield per plant?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

BEEFCAK3 said:


> very good points al. the only way i could get the medium ur using is to order it and i know you cant reuse that stuff this would be the first for me to see that kinda of medium..


Well, use soil with proper fertilisers or inert media with hydroponic nutes, one or the other. Check your local building supply for rockwool insulation, which if it is the absorbent type of rockwool (as opposed to water repellent type) will work just fine. 

There would be a glass fibre inhalation hazard with dry bulk fibreglas, but it would work OK as a medium if you keep it damp to prevent a lot of glass fibres from floating around.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

Kuji said:


> I forgot, what strength and mixture of nut solution do you dip your clones in?


I have experimented with a nut solution and find that almond and macadamia make an interesting if messy slurry but the clones don't like it much. 

No nutes in clone watering solution. Clones are watered with plain water that has been pH adjusted to 5.8. Clone watering soln should get 1ml/L of 50% grade H2O2. If you use a bucket of clone watering soln for more than 2-3 days, dose the soln with H2O2 @ 1ml/L again- or make up a fresh bucket after 2-3 days use.



Kuji said:


> Also, do you think if you vegged the clones for another 1-2 weeks you would get a bigger yield per plant?


No. This is a question which is asked really rather often. 

Vegging clones between rooting and flowering defeats the purpose of zero-veg time, which is to keep plants relatively short so the bulk of the bud mass is within the highest luminous intensity coverage area of the lamp. 

If you veg clones before flowering them, you'd wind up with excessively tall plants by wk 8 with poor bud development down low on the plant. 

Moreover, you'd be unnecessarily adding a couple of weeks into the schedule. 

On top of that, you'd need to provide an entire separate grow room/light/ventilation system for vegging; obviously, you can't veg in the same area with your flowering plants.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Check out Foxfarm. They have a good organic line of nutes that is good for hydro or soil. I have had good luck with the Foxfarm nutes. My plants seem to love them.


'Organic' and 'hydroponic' IMNSFHO shouldn't be used in the same sentence, much less the same grow op. The word 'organic' does NOT mean 'good.' It means 'sourced from rotted/composted biological materials.'

Organic nutrients (and media such as coco coir) are incompatible with H2O2. H2O2 is used in standard hydro ops as a steriliser and root oxygenator. It will break down organic based fertilisers as readily as it will break down pathogens. 

Your plants don't care whether their nitrogen comes from ammonium nitrate or chickenshit. May as well make your life easier and use 'chemical' based hydroponic nutes and inert media.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 15, 2008)

Hey AL , i need some advice. My plants were grown from seed and were planted on 2/24 and 3/03. They are in week 3 and 4 of the Foxfarm feeding schedule http://www.foxfarmfertilizer.com/hydrofeed.pdf. I should be able to start telling the sex of the plants and start taking clones soon. Should i keep feeding my vegging mothers the week 4 nute mixture and continue taking clones off of the when i need them? The schedule shows week 5 is the first week for flowering nute mixture. So should i start the clones with this mix when i put them in my tray? Will i still need to flush after week 6 since they are clones in a seperate rez and tray? Does this sound right to you?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Hey AL , i need some advice. My plants were grown from seed and were planted on 2/24 and 3/03. They are in week 3 and 4 of the Foxfarm feeding schedule http://www.foxfarmfertilizer.com/hydrofeed.pdf. I should be able to start telling the sex of the plants and start taking clones soon. Should i keep feeding my vegging mothers the week 4 nute mixture and continue taking clones off of the when i need them? The schedule shows week 5 is the first week for flowering nute mixture. So should i start the clones with this mix when i put them in my tray? Will i still need to flush after week 6 since they are clones in a seperate rez and tray? Does this sound right to you?


Seedlings must be vegged until they are sexually mature (showing preflowers at nodes). This is normally 6-8 weeks from sprouting. Once they are sexually mature, they can be sexed. 

You can determine sex by covering one branch of a plant for 12h/day while keeping the plant in veg cycle lighting. You can also take a cutting from an unknown sex plant, get it to set root and then put it in to a 12/12 flowering light cycle to cause it to display sex. 

Clones should get no nutes at all until after they have set root. Nitrogen in nutrients slows rooting.

Don't give flowering nutes until your clones are in 12/12 lighting.

I'm not convinced that plants need to be 'flushed' before harvesting. I find no smoking difference between plants which have been starved for the last two weeks and those which have not been. On occasion, I have the space available to continue flowering for another couple of weeks. Plants do store about 2 wks worth of nutes. If I have stopped nutes in wk6, the plants will begin to get a bit N deficient by the end of wk 8. If I keep giving the usual 1400ppm, I can continue flowering past wk 8 if I have the space.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Seedlings must be vegged until they are sexually mature (showing preflowers at nodes). This is normally 6-8 weeks from sprouting. Once they are sexually mature, they can be sexed.
> 
> You can determine sex by covering one branch of a plant for 12h/day while keeping the plant in veg cycle lighting. You can also take a cutting from an unknown sex plant, get it to set root and then put it in to a 12/12 flowering light cycle to cause it to display sex.
> 
> ...


Yeah, i should be able to tell the sex starting next week. So should i just continue to feed my mothers the week 4 nute mixture since it shows that as the last week of veg on the schedule and then start the clones whith week 5 after they root and i put them in my tray and switch them to 12/12 ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

Whatever mixture results in a high N ratio is what you use for vegging. No nutes for clones til they set root (didn't I just say that?)

I gotta tell you, a lot of nutrient mfrs make this far too complex, with multiple part sauces and wildly varying recipes which are pretty easy to muck up. Believe it or not, nutes are a very small part of the end result. The vast majority (>80%) of what causes the plant to grow is energy from light, not the nutrients. 

One of these days, I'm going to run a batch with Miracle Gro just to prove a point.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> One of these days, I'm going to run a batch with Miracle Gro just to prove a point.


 
That sounds like a good idea...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2008)

Yeah, but all the same, I don't need to jump off a cliff to prove I can't fly. 

You can successfully extrapolate an accurate result if you know the variables and the science.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Whatever mixture results in a high N ratio is what you use for vegging. No nutes for clones til they set root (didn't I just say that?)
> 
> I gotta tell you, a lot of nutrient mfrs make this far too complex, with multiple part sauces and wildly varying recipes which are pretty easy to muck up. Believe it or not, nutes are a very small part of the end result. The vast majority (>80%) of what causes the plant to grow is energy from light, not the nutrients.
> 
> One of these days, I'm going to run a batch with Miracle Gro just to prove a point.


I will take that as a yes.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 15, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> WDWYFL, I happen to be a distributor for hydroponics equipment. I checked one of my supplier catalogues and I find this notation under the listing for RW floc I buy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


have you gotten a chance to look into this yet?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> have you gotten a chance to look into this yet?


Yeah, I'm having trouble finding the repellent type of RW floc.


----------



## smartfood (Apr 16, 2008)

Hey Al, I took a bunch of clones a few weeks back and now they've rooted. I however took much smaller clones than you do (didn't have big mothers). They are between 5 and 7 inches tall right now. Do these look ready to go into flowering for SOG? If you have any pics of what your clones look like at day 1 of flowering, I'd be very interested to see them. I've seen your pics of how you clone and also pics at 4-8 weeks flowering, but none between then. Thanks a ton; advice is very much appreciated!


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 16, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hey Al, I took a bunch of clones a few weeks back and now they've rooted. I however took much smaller clones than you do (didn't have big mothers). They are between 5 and 7 inches tall right now. Do these look ready to go into flowering for SOG? If you have any pics of what your clones look like at day 1 of flowering, I'd be very interested to see them. I've seen your pics of how you clone and also pics at 4-8 weeks flowering, but none between then. Thanks a ton; advice is very much appreciated!


I want to see Als answer, but yeah you can do it. I did. And my clones are flowering. And I know Al has said. No veg time for clones. So you are rooted lets go. I even root in my 12/12 box cause I don't have a dual stage box set up. I am working on my veg chamber now, I just need to buy the lighting, the rest is done. And I need to get the ventialtion done on my flowerin closet and I am good to go.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hey Al, I took a bunch of clones a few weeks back and now they've rooted. I however took much smaller clones than you do (didn't have big mothers). They are between 5 and 7 inches tall right now. Do these look ready to go into flowering for SOG?


Your plants look pretty good, aside from being a little nitrogen and phosphorus deficient- see purpling stems and yellowing lower leaves. Always better to shoot low with ferts than high! The problems I see are fixable.

However, most of your plants have been vegged too long for the SoG method. They look like they have been vegging for several weeks. If these were put in to flower, they would be too tall by the end of wk8. 

Not only will overall height be a problem if you don't have a lot of vertical space to work with in your flowering area, but the buds down low on the plant (just above the point where you will have removed all branching) will likely come up sparse and fluffy. Zero veg time post the clones setting root prevents this problem.

Yes, these _could _be flowered, but they look like they'd be better as mother plants for you, if given a bit of a feed and about 7-10 days under 18-24h HPS (or MH) light.



> If you have any pics of what your clones look like at day 1 of flowering, I'd be very interested to see them. I've seen your pics of how you clone and also pics at 4-8 weeks flowering, but none between then. Thanks a ton; advice is very much appreciated!


These pics appear earlier in this thread, but I'll repeat them for your convenience. If you go through the admittedly very long thread, you will find these pics and others.

My clones look like this when they are ready go in to flower:

 

Clones are not intended to grow vegetatively in my clone box, only be convinced it is daylight for 18+h/day to keep them in veg mode. They are not appreciably larger when they come out of the clonebox as opposed to the day they were cut- low intensity light from fluoros will see to it that they don't grow much.

My plants look like this during flowering:



These are in my tray#1, for plants in wk1-2. Pictured plants have been flowering for 2 weeks. As you see, they gain vertical height really quite quickly even though they are under 12/12 and are eating high P flowering nutes. Plants take about 4 weeks to completely stop gaining vertical height and start packing on the budmass.

Here's tray 2:



This tray houses plants in wks 2-4. Pictured plants are in wk4.

Tray 3:



Tray 3 is for plants in wks 4-6. Pictured plants are in wk6. 

Tray 4:



Tray 4 is for plants in wks 6-8. Pictured plants are at wk8, ready to harvest.

To get plants to finish up like this, you must not veg your clones between the time they set root and the time you put them in to flower. 

In your case, I'd use a couple of the larger plants as mums and flower the smaller ones right now. 

The plants intended as mums should have their mainstems lopped (of course, you'll use those cuttings for clones) and then should be vegged under 18-24h HPS light for about 2 weeks. They will be ready for another pass of cuttings, or will be ready for a maintenance pruning if you don't need more clones at the time. 

I presume you're going to do something about the pots of soil...


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 16, 2008)

hey al...

sorry for the redundancy, but i dont feel like scavenging through 100 pages to find the answer..

on average, what is one plant yielding dry? 

i think you said your harvesting around 2 lbs per tray??? and you have aprox 25 plants per tray???? so 32oz/25=~1.25 oz per plant?

whats your figures again?

ty


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> hey al...
> 
> sorry for the redundancy, but i dont feel like scavenging through 100 pages to find the answer..
> 
> ...


When I wrote the the lead post, I was getting about 13-16z per tray every 2 weeks. The 2lb figure would be for a month at that time. Those citations are in the first page of the thread. 

I fixed a few things (repaired tank aeration system, corrected PK13-14 usage) and got that up to about 23z per tray, 1z per plant. 

Cooltubes went in some time later; too soon to tell what that will do to the yield, but the reduced heat and much more stable temps are making things look promising, on the order of about 1.25-1.5 per plant.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2008)

I've been browsing around the boards a bit while taking a break from the snipping. One common thread I keep finding is that too many growers are working way too hard, particularly on nutes. 

Dunno, could be because I'm a stoned slacker or because I'm running a production line op that makes a lot of dope and I don't want to fuck with it constantly (_and_ I make stupid stoner mistakes!), but I simplify and make robust or errorproof my processes wherever I can. Some of my foolproofing and fuckwit factor reductions involve compromises to max yield per plant, but never to quality. 

I run plants in pots of absorbent media, as opposed to aero or DWC, both which supply lots more O2 to the roots and thus improve production by about 10-20%, because aero & DWC don't have inherent fault tolerance. Aero, DWC etc. break and stop working- right now. Floods with pots break and give you a couple days to catch it. 

The fault expected is the grower (me)! Air pump failures, general negligence and outright grower fuckups can kill whole batches in other methods. I chose the less productive method because it's a lot harder to kill _entire_ batches at once- but don't think I haven't given _*that*_ a good goddamn try anyway... 

We were on nutes here a page or so ago. I've also gone and looked over the GH/Lucas stuff. I'd go absolutely porcupine-buggering *mad* (figure you'd _have_ to be pretty mad to bugger a porcupine) if I had to calculate out all those drop-by-drop portions for my 5 tanks AND keep track of them as each of my batches progress. That's not nutes, that's *NUTS.* 

It simply doesn't have to be all that hard to get good results.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 16, 2008)

You are the man AL. Those clones look dank. What strain are those in the pics? Do you think i will be able to get 1oz per plant in my 2x2 tray with 15 clones under a 400w Super HPS?


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 16, 2008)

You know, this just feels right. I remember the first time i viewed those picture's I think it was still my first month of membership on rollitup. I thought then I didn't quite understand it. You have patiently repeated the same things over and over for us, and still find time to make improvements in what was already a model for many of us. And I am going to make it to Australia, don't know where and I guess its rather large. 
Well, off to review your cloning thread, and one more look at that rocket science schedule, lets see if I have that down. Two weeks for clones,two weeks for table one, two weeks table two, two weeks table three and two weeks table four, all flood and drain because its easier and produces within 10 t0 20% of aero etc. 1400ppm, ph'd water and a booster when its called for. Uhh that kinda sounds simple?? Are you sure it can be that easy?? Props. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> You are the man AL. Those clones look dank.


Thanks, but some days I feel less like 'da man' and more like '*DUH* man.' 

One of these days I'll tell you how a mislabelled spray bottle of bleach got confused with fungicide... and wiped out half a tray before I caught myself.



> What strain are those in the pics?


All Sweet Tooth #4 from Spice of Life Seeds.



> Do you think i will be able to get 1oz per plant in my 2x2 tray with 15 clones under a 400w Super HPS?


2 things; a) you probably won't get your best production until you've been running it for a few months, and b) I can't speak to the production ability of a 400 in flowering, haven't used one to flower for about 7 years- been using 1000s. Things would have to be going pretty badly for you to get under 1/2z per, though. 



VictorVIcious said:


> You know, this just feels right. I remember the first time i viewed those picture's I think it was still my first month of membership on rollitup. I thought then I didn't quite understand it. You have patiently repeated the same things over and over for us, and still find time to make improvements in what was already a model for many of us.


Thanks for your kindness, VV. And thanks for looking after the thread for a spell when I'd had about a gutful of internet cannabis forums. 

One thing I didn't do in post #1 is to simply say it is 4 independent flood systems, fed with a batch of clones every 2 weeks until plants start coming out of the other end of the pipeline. Repeat. Forever. 



> And I am going to make it to Australia, don't know where and I guess its rather large.


Oh, I reckon you'll work it out. 

Try the backpacker routine. Fly in to SYD with some $ and no plans. Go to a backpackers' hostel, meet up with 4-5 like-minded travellers, pool your $, buy a used car or a van for a cpl-3 thou and start driving. Sell it when you leave. Everyone else does. 



> Well, off to review your cloning thread, and one more look at that rocket science schedule, lets see if I have that down. Two weeks for clones,two weeks for table one, two weeks table two, two weeks table three and two weeks table four, all flood and drain because its easier and produces within 10 t0 20% of aero etc. 1400ppm, ph'd water and a booster when its called for. Uhh that kinda sounds simple?? Are you sure it can be that easy?? Props. VV


Ignore the advice in the cloning thread about putting weak veg nutes in the watering soln given to clones before they set root. I found that the N caused slowed rooting. Just tapwater, pH adj to 5.8 & add 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/litre. 

The real trick in cloning is keeping the media warm- heat mats are great for consistency and speed- and media must be only damp, never wet or saturated. 

Yep- it's all that easy. The thing is a bit neat and symmetrical with pairs of this'n that and even numbers and all. Makes a lot of things simpler for a stoner with a short term memory like a... well.. a stoner. Everything happens in the same weeks in the month. If you start the process on the 1st of the month, you know your tank changes are on the 1st & 15th. Those can be your harvest dates as well. You can break up the jobs a bit, dump tanks one week, harvest the next, dump, harvest, etc etc. 

Thanks again, VV.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 16, 2008)

I forgot to mention that i will be using CO2 during flowering. Will the CO2 increase my yield ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

Yep, CO2, done _*properly*_, will bump your op's output 20-50%. 

The operative word is _*properly.

*_By _*properly,*_ I mean a sealed grow room, mainly cooled by aircon and CO2 from a tank, metered and measured with a controller device. Cooltubes reduce the thermal load while keeping CO2 in the room. 

With CO2, you can run your room temps at 32C, otherwise waaaaay too hot. I'd hold it to 30C, myself. The combination of a CO2 enriched atmosphere, high humidity (70-80%) and higher temp makes for much faster growth- you could probably take a week out of an 8 week flowering sked and yield the same as w/o CO2, or you can just run for 8wks and get more weight. 

It's killer stuff, done right. It is killer stuff done wrong, too.  You can use CO2 to murder any bug in the op by raising the room concentration to 10,000ppm and closing up the room for an hour or two. If you were in the room, you'd meet the fate of your bugs. Be careful. CO2 is colourless and odourless.


----------



## stickyicky77 (Apr 17, 2008)

Awesome. It sounds like i am set then. My mothers are in veg week 7 and 8 and have small preflowers. Can you check out my journal and tell me if they look ready to take clones from?


----------



## daddychrisg (Apr 17, 2008)

*Organic nutrients (and media such as coco coir) are incompatible with H2O2. H2O2 is used in standard hydro ops as a steriliser and root oxygenator. It will break down organic based fertilisers as readily as it will break down pathogens.

*_Hey Al, so why is H202 not compatible with Coco Coir?


_


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> Ausome. It sounds like i am set then. My mothers are in veg week 7 and 8 and have small preflowers. Can you check out my journal and tell me if they look ready to take clones from?


Yep, you have lots of material for cuttings- but have you sexed them yet?



daddychrisg said:


> *Organic nutrients (and media such as coco coir) are incompatible with H2O2. H2O2 is used in standard hydro ops as a steriliser and root oxygenator. It will break down organic based fertilisers as readily as it will break down pathogens.
> 
> *_Hey Al, so why is H202 not compatible with Coco Coir?
> 
> _


For the same reason H2O2 is not compatible with organic nutes. H2O2 is a powerful oxidiser and will break bonds in dead organic materials' molecular structures. If you break the bonds, the material goes back to the carbon cycle- in little bits made up of materials that H2O2 can't break down (ie. materials already oxidised), if there's any such material in what you're oxidising with your H2O2.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, you have lots of material for cuttings- but have you sexed them yet?


Of course, taking some cuttings is a great way to sex your donors. Just make sure you mark your cuttings so you know which plant they came from.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 17, 2008)

how many weeks in,from seed, do you start to take clones to sex?

i think it would be easier to just take the clone(s) and* then start to flower the donor plant, so you keep the plant(s) short*- and toss any males you might have you along with your clones ,unless you are going to be breeding. 
then you keep the clone(s) from your best plant after you harvest!!!!

i just started some seed and i think i will try this technique when the plants are one month in....

whats your thought on this al? i hope that made sense

and thanks in advance


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 17, 2008)

3 or 4 nodes should be sufficient...some say 6-7 nodes....but im not al.


----------



## kenaz (Apr 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Now, if you want a finicky plant, try raising some Australian natives, which keel over dead when there's a box of ferts with any phosphorus in it within the same time zone...


Do you know anyone who works with any of the native Aussie fish or reptiles? 

What I wouldn't do to get my hands on an Australian lungfish or a Kinghorni Scrub... but alas, the Australian government makes export of native fauna very difficult/impossible. (As I understand it, getting caught smuggling animals out of Australia is about as serious as getting caught bringing hard drugs in... ).


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, CO2, done _*properly*_, will bump your op's output 20-50%.
> 
> The operative word is _*properly.
> 
> ...


do you have to use aircon or can you just get C.A.P. 2 Timer Temp/Humidity/CO2 Controller which will disable CO2 injection if the temperature or humidity levels that you specify are exceeded, activating an exhaust outlet which can control ventilation equipment. Once again I know we have covered this a few times but earlier you said someone should only use aircon as a last resort.


----------



## smartfood (Apr 17, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> how many weeks in,from seed, do you start to take clones to sex?
> 
> i think it would be easier to just take the clone(s) and* then start to flower the donor plant, so you keep the plant(s) short*- and toss any males you might have you along with your clones ,unless you are going to be breeding.
> then you keep the clone(s) from your best plant after you harvest!!!!
> ...


That's how I did it. I sent 13 plants to flower (6F, 6M, 1H). Cut clones from all pre-flower, tossed the H and M clones and vwalah, got future moms + next round of plants to go into flower, plus I've got bud on the way sooner . Some rooted faster/better than others (Also taking that into consideration when choosing mum). 2 different strains, 4 very different plants.


----------



## smartfood (Apr 17, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Your plants look pretty good, aside from being a little nitrogen and phosphorus deficient- see purpling stems and yellowing lower leaves. Always better to shoot low with ferts than high! The problems I see are fixable.


Hmmm I was thinking that it was the temperatures at night that were getting to them (as low as 61F). I was under the impression that that could turn stalks purple as well, but I may be wrong on this. Either way, I gave them a nice feeding, and I'm sure they'll appreciate it!



Al B. Fuct said:


> However, most of your plants have been vegged too long for the SoG method. They look like they have been vegging for several weeks. If these were put in to flower, they would be too tall by the end of wk8.
> 
> Not only will overall height be a problem if you don't have a lot of vertical space to work with in your flowering area, but the buds down low on the plant (just above the point where you will have removed all branching) will likely come up sparse and fluffy. Zero veg time post the clones setting root prevents this problem.


What do you think about clipping off the new growth on the sides from the veg time and throwing them straight into flower? That is to say, trim them down to look like how your clones look on day 1. Essentially they'd be at the same point as your clones with only one growth tip. Would this solve the issue of fluffy buds? I'm hoping so, cuz that's what I did last night =P



Al B. Fuct said:


> Yes, these _could _be flowered, but they look like they'd be better as mother plants for you, if given a bit of a feed and about 7-10 days under 18-24h HPS (or MH) light.


I chose the four bushiest as mothers and am vegging those (2 Chrystal, 1 Indica-dominant Satori, 1 Sativa-dominant satori). In case my previous plan doesn't work out, I'll still have a plan B!

Thanks Al!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> how many weeks in,from seed, do you start to take clones to sex?
> 
> i think it would be easier to just take the clone(s) and* then start to flower the donor plant, so you keep the plant(s) short*- and toss any males you might have you along with your clones ,unless you are going to be breeding.
> then you keep the clone(s) from your best plant after you harvest!!!!
> ...


Flower your mother plant? Why, so you can't take cuttings from it anymore? Cuttings from a plant in flower are notoriously slow to set root (this _*IS*_ the 78th time I've mentioned that) and it will take several weeks in 18-24/h light to get the plant to return to veg habit. Why would you deliberately wreck your mother plant? 



bigal10 said:


> do you have to use aircon or can you just get C.A.P. 2 Timer Temp/Humidity/CO2 Controller which will disable CO2 injection if the temperature or humidity levels that you specify are exceeded, activating an exhaust outlet which can control ventilation equipment. Once again I know we have covered this a few times but earlier you said someone should only use aircon as a last resort.


Some sort of CO2 controller is needed, most have an aircon control facility. Aircon keeps the CO2 in the room. Aircon IS a last resort in most cases, except this one. If you are making the kind of dough off your op needed to buy a CO2 system, you can afford aircon, too. It is a huge power soak- you might be able to afford to run it, make sure you have the wiring to handle it as well.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hmmm I was thinking that it was the temperatures at night that were getting to them (as low as 61F). I was under the impression that that could turn stalks purple as well, but I may be wrong on this. Either way, I gave them a nice feeding, and I'm sure they'll appreciate it!


Yep, you're right- some strains do get a purple tinge in low temps, but that cause usually purples leaf tips and growing tips. When you see it in the mainstem or the entire petioles (leaf stems), it's usually P deficiency. If you're feeding your soil plants 1x weekly with the recommended rate for 'outdoor' plants (per the mfr instructions), the purpling will stop in new growth but existing purpling will remain.

Cannabis will tend to go dormant at or below 16C/60F- you don't usually see indoor plants having to cope with temps that low. Need to raise that somehow. My op gets its light-off warmth from waste heat from my dehumidifier.



> What do you think about clipping off the new growth on the sides from the veg time and throwing them straight into flower? That is to say, trim them down to look like how your clones look on day 1. Essentially they'd be at the same point as your clones with only one growth tip. Would this solve the issue of fluffy buds? I'm hoping so, cuz that's what I did last night =P


Yep right again, should be OK- on the other hand, cannabis in veg responds well to being pruned back and may come back even more vigorously. Since you're going straight on to flower with those (right?), I HOPE that will stop your vertical growth by about wk4, but if they've been vegging under a big light for a few weeks, they might defy my hope. Plants which have been vegged and cut back will have a much more advanced root system than clones which have only been working on a root system for 15 days. I think that advanced rootmass may drive your plants to be taller than recently done clones. Of course, you won't want to lop the mainstems.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 17, 2008)

smartfood said:


> That's how I did it. I sent 13 plants to flower (6F, 6M, 1H). Cut clones from all pre-flower, tossed the H and M clones and vwalah, got future moms + next round of plants to go into flower, plus I've got bud on the way sooner . Some rooted faster/better than others (Also taking that into consideration when choosing mum). 2 different strains, 4 very different plants.





Al B. Fuct said:


> Flower your mother plant? Why, so you can't take cuttings from it anymore? Cuttings from a plant in flower are notoriously slow to set root (this _*IS*_ the 78th time I've mentioned that) and it will take several weeks in 18-24/h light to get the plant to return to veg habit. Why would you deliberately wreck your mother plant?


smartfood gets the point i was trying to convey. 

*you take cuttings before you start flowering *that way they wont have to revert back to vegg. also, you use the clones as future mother plants-almost like what you do.

here are some of the benefits, im my perspective.
you get to flower your "seed" plants right after you take the cutting and let the "seed" plants show you the sex and quality of bud. you then know which clones are what gender. *so you get to harvest your initial crop sooner because you put them into flowering sooner.*
*your not wasting as much plant material*. from what i gather, when using clones to sex your plants after you determine the sex of the clone/donor plant i heard ppl often discard these few clones for some reason.. maybe its because it just doesnt fit into their op -no point of flowering 5 small clones under a 1kw light
this way will let you be able determine which is your finest  plant(s) and which clones to keep without reverting back to vegg... also this would be the quickest way to do so because your kicking it into flower ASAP!!!!
you wont have to worry about height issues as much because your flowering earlier.
*basically i think this way would knock off the two weeks you would be waiting for the clones to show sex!*
so step by step,

1.take clones as soon as possible!

2.right after you take the clones, switch to flowering your donor plants

3.vegg grow clones out while you are waiting to see the finished product of the donors plants. as a side note, you would grow them out proportional to how many cuttings your going to need to fill your system/room. no need to grow these clones into monsters if your only doing a 6 plant DWC system.

4. *after you find your favorite flowering donor plant(s) keep these clone(s) for your next cycle and for future moms.* you can discard the less appealing clone(s), or by this time, you could take some more clones of the slightly less favorable and flower them- if you need the extra plants.

5. smoke your medicineand enjoy

this might not be the best idea if you dont have your cloning down because if your clones dont take root your plants are all ready flowering... it usually takes ~10 days to root a cutting so if these clones fail you might need to take cutting(s) off a flowering plant- which is bad because of the reasons al explained in his latter post. also make sure the plant(s) is big enough to give decent cutting: as al has said "thicker stems root quicker"

sorry for the rant, but this way seems more logical to me for some reason. 

ive been awake for >20 some odd hours so im kinda out of it right now, hopefully this will make more sense to you guys than my brief post on this. 

hit me up with some reps ppl if this was useful please & ty

edit- im not claiming this is a novel idea, just the way that makes the most sense to me!


----------



## BEEFCAK3 (Apr 17, 2008)

im lookin for a ph tester and was wondering if any local stores would carry that or do i have to order? thanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> so step by step,
> 
> 1.take clones as soon as possible!
> 
> ...


OK, I see what you're up to- I guess it's good cloning practise. However, I don't see the time advantage. Your suggestion may shave some time off the first buds to come out of the op but will slow you down from establishing a 2-week SoG output. 

The problem I see is that if you're flowering off your developed mums and using the clones as future mums, you're building a delay back into the schedule. The clones will have to veg up for a few weeks before they will be useful as mums. If you flower the clones and keep the mums vegging, the (then known sex) mums will be ready to donate another batch of cuttings in about 2 weeks after you have taken the batch that you're now sexing/flowering. If you go the other way about, you'll be waiting 3-4 weeks for the clones to veg up enough to yield good sized slips. After then, you'll have a decent stock of mother material for biweekly cuttings.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

Flowering the mums actually could build in a longer delay than I first thought. 

OK, let's plan this out (FYI, MS Project is a great tool for this job- I wish I had a copy!).

We'll try it via your suggestion first.

Let's start from 1 June. 

An unknown sex donor raised from seed planted on 1 April (which we'll call 'Sally,' cos we're optimistic ) yields some cuttings on 1 June. Let's call those cuts 'Batch A.' 

Batch A takes 7-10 days to strike, 14-15 days pass before Batch A have a developed enough root system to be put under the HID veg light (15 June). 3-4 wks more to veg up Batch A enough to yield a batch of cuts. Batch A is ready to supply a pass of cuts on 15 July.

Sally needs a week of veg post yielding the Batch A cuttings to recover. Chuck Sally in to flower on 7 June. 

Wait a week with Sally in 12/12; now 15 June. You're lucky! Sally comes up female. Batch A in the veg area are now known to be female. Sally will be a big bushy plant having been lopped & topped, but that won't worry you as you have no other plants in the op now. Harvest Sally on 7 August. 

We're now waiting for Batch A to veg up enough to yield cuttings. Take a pass of cuttings- call them Batch B- on 15 July. Wait 15 days for Batch B to develop a good spray of roots before flowering. 

1 August, Batch B goes in to flower. Batch B is ready to harvest on 1 October, your first of perpetual 2-week harvests. . 

There is a 7 week gap between the first and second harvests (snip Sally on 7 Aug, snip Batch B on 1 Oct).

Batch A, in veg, recovers by 1 August from the 15 July pass of cuts. 

Do a pass of cuttings on 1 Aug, Batch C, which will be ready to flower by 15 August, ready to harvest by 15 October. 

Batch A recovers from donating Batch C on 15 Aug and will yield cuts every 2 weeks for the next couple-3 months. Replace with spare clones as they wear out. 

Now you have the mums and thus the whole 2 week cycle established. 

OK, now the other way around:

1 June: a sexually mature yet unknown sex donor raised from seed (Sally) yields some cuttings (Batch A). Sally keeps on vegging. 

15 June: Batch A now have enough roots to go in to flower. See you in 8 weeks. Divert some clones to be future mums should Sally be female. Veg them with Sally; they will be ready to donate cuttings in 3-4 wks. 

Also 15 June: Sally is now vegged up enough for another pass of cuttings (and will be a fairly large plant by now, capable of supplying most of the clones you need), but is still sex unknown. Do a pass of cuttings (Batch B) on faith or wait a week for Batch A (in the flowering area since 1 June) to show sex.

21 June: Yay, Batch A turn up female. Batch A is ready to harvest on 15 August, your first of repeating 2 week harvests. 

If you took a punt and did Batch B on 15 June, they will go in to flower on 1 July, ready to harvest on 1 September. 

1 July: Sally is recovered and ready for another pass of cuts, Batch C. Mum stock is now established and ready for biweekly cuttings. 

15 July: Batch C goes in to flower, ready to harvest on 15 September. Harvests come out every 2 weeks thereafter.

Pays you to establish a mum and use it as one instead of flowering it. You establish your cycle sooner and don't have a big gap in between harvests. You get first buds a week later but you get them every 2 weeks thereafter by NOT building in the delay for vegging up clones. Using mums as mums will further make the op yield _*3 full trays of bud*_ in the time you're waiting on clones to veg.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2008)

It occurs to me that I don't think I've covered the mother plant system in all of this thread. Tells you how much of a no brainer it is to raise mums. 

I always take more cuttings than I need- I cut 30 every 2 weeks and flower 23. When I need to replace mums, some of the 7 spares are used, otherwise they become compost.

A new clone takes about 3-4 weeks of vegging before it will be sufficiently large to provide any amount of thick stemmed cuttings. On the first day a clone goes in the the mother area, I snip off the growing tip to force branching. 

I can fuel the 30 biweekly cuttings I need with only about 5-6 well-developed mums. I have 10 pot spaces in my mother plant area, so at any given time, I can replace 4-5 old mums with younguns, which veg up while the remaining oldies continue supplying clones. 

I usually don't replace more than 2-3 mums at any given time- the more large, established mums there are, the better the selection of thick stems will be available for cuttings. 

Mums run on Canna Vega, 1500-1800ppm @ 5.8, under a 400HPS on 24/0. They live in pots of 100% rockwool floc (works better for the mums than Fytocell for some reason) in a roughly 1.5' x 3' flood tray (I otta measure that), supplied by a ~50L tank. Could do with a bigger tank. Advanced mums are hugely thirsty, especially when they are very large, just before a pass of cuttings, and the mum tank requires frequent top-up.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 18, 2008)

Hey AL, could you tell us more about setting up flood tables. I am using DWC (bubbleponics tanks) And as we had discussed transplanting is not easy, but BTW everything that I did move showed no signs of damage. I had to risk it, but it turned out ok. I am looking to setup something in minds of expansion. I only have my flowering chamber now, and while I have noticed that hydro clones will root in 12/12, my attempts in soil, have not been as good to me. I was thinking soil, because of ease and it's supposed to be the beginners way. But I have the hydro, going great and with ease. And I think I am just not using the right soil. Cause even the soil shows growth, but growth with bad fert. ya know. Well if anything, give us some ideas to a setting up floods with a low budget in mind.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 18, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey AL, could you tell us more about setting up flood tables. I am using DWC (bubbleponics tanks) And as we had discussed transplanting is not easy, but BTW everything that I did move showed no signs of damage. I had to risk it, but it turned out ok. I am looking to setup something in minds of expansion. I only have my flowering chamber now, and while I have noticed that hydro clones will root in 12/12, my attempts in soil, have not been as good to me. I was thinking soil, because of ease and it's supposed to be the beginners way. But I have the hydro, going great and with ease. And I think I am just not using the right soil. Cause even the soil shows growth, but growth with bad fert. ya know. Well if anything, give us some ideas to a setting up floods with a low budget in mind.


First, you need to make up a clonebox. 







An old plywood shipping container is ideal. Look behind businesses that sell large or heavy articles (found mine behind a place that sells big-arsed commercial fire pumps) for discarded containers. 

Failing that, buy a few bits of 2x4 for the frame & a sheet of plywood (MDF or particle board will *not* do- humidity & water splashes will trash these materials quickly) and whack one together. This ain't furniture grade carpentry, just make it strong enough to hang together. 

You might also use a large (125L or bigger) plastic storage container.

My clonebox is just a miniature grow room with a heatmat. Lined with stolen... err... _*surplus*_ Coroplast/Corflute real-estate signs.  Corflute is super durable, cleanable, tolerates frequent sterilisation with 10% bleach solution. There's 3x 24" twin-tube fluoro fixtures and a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan, set for 26.5C. The heatmat is fixed 30C temp, no thermostat dial. 

Lights run 24/0 but I do have a timer on them so I can give the clones 6 hours of darkness right after doing a batch of cuttings. This helps them establish water uptake through the stem cuts, before having to cope with transpiration caused by exposure to light without yet having a root system, even though these tube fluoros were deliberately chosen to be weak & gentle. Clones need not be pounded with light, they only need to be convinced it is daylight for 18+h/day to keep them in veg mode. Doesn't take much light for that. 

Keeping clones in a high humidity environment to prevent wilt is not necessary if the kids can get good water uptake through their stem cuts. 

If your scalpel was not fully sterile or your media is overwet, you will see wilt about 3-5 days after cutting. No problem, recut them with a sterile scalpel and use H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/L in your clone watering solution and you won't see it again, as long as you don't repeat the overwet medium condition. 

The controlled environment with heat mat, along with getting your watering right (medium must be only damp, never wet or saturated), will raise your success rate to nearly 100% every time. 

A 40mm cube weighs 5g dry and 20-25g when properly damp. Heavier is too wet and will not leave enough oxygen in the cube to encourage quick rooting. 

When I lose cuttings, it's usually due to imperfect RW cubes. I buy a 2250 ct carton of 40mm cubes once every couple of years. Some cubes, even within the same carton, are not very dense and won't form well around the stems. The fit around the stems has to be tight. 

I water clones by dipping _only a corner_ of the cubes for about 1 sec into a bucket of clone watering solution. 







The watering solution is simply tapwater with 1ml/L H2O2 and pH adjusted to 5.8.

Your next project is to cordon off a small area with panda film to raise your mum/s. It will need a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan, a circ fan and a small HPS. I use a 400 to run 10 mums, but I might be able to get by with a 250.

Hydroponics _*is*_ easy, but there _*are*_ startup costs and you do have to go a bit out of your way to get the right stuff. If you plan well and shop well, it's an investment that will pay for itself over and over for many years.

While short-lived substitutes can be bunged together, I don't recommend trying to bodge up your own flood trays. They tend to develop leaks- and grief. Proper vacuformed plastic trays are not that expensive and last for years. I pay $52 for 900mm x 900mm trays. Shop around. 

Lots of alternatives for media. You can use lava rock (from hdwe, landscaper or BBQ sply) instead of clay pellets, but I suspect pellets are cheaper, even at the hydro shop. Pellets are lighter weight and somewhat re-usable if you can be bothered to clean & sterilise them, which is best done by hand. These types are not absorbent and require flooding several times per light-on cycle. 

Lightweight, disposable, absorbent media like rockwool floc and Fytocell only need flooding 1-2x per lights-on and are easier to dispose of in common rubbish than heavyweight alternatives. May also be sold also at bldg sply houses as insulation. Fibreglas will work in a pinch as a substitute absorbent medium but poses well-known hazards and should always be kept damp to keep fibres from floating about. Using disposable media prevents transmission of root diseases and bugs from batch to batch, important in a constant output op like mine. Downside is you have to buy & dispose of it. Small price to pay IMNSFHO for the reliability of plants in pots of absorbent media.

You will spend a few hundred bucks setting up a competent op. You can shave costs by using converted HPS security lighting with home made reflectors, use the shop's brand of hydro nutes and buy 50% grade H2O2 in 25L bulk containers ($5/L instead of $12-20+/L for little 250ml-1L bottles at Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe, 25L lasts me 6-8 mos with my 550L of tanks which are dumped biweekly & dosed every 3-4 days). Don't skimp on pH & EC metering. Strip pH tests ballpark you but are hard to use and are not that accurate. Get proper electronic meters for hydroponics. There's very cheap ones around if you look (even Ebay). Don't worry about distilled or RO water.


----------



## massbaster (Apr 18, 2008)

maybe you addressed this in another post but i am lazy to read so many until i find it. hey at least i am honest.

anyhow, when you start to rotate the clones 2-4,4-6,6-8 how do you setup your lights for the difference in height? i am assuming that each new batch of clones would be smaller than the first batch since they would have been in flower for 2-4 weeks right? 

is your hid light enough for all heights at the distance set? or do you have multiple lights to adjust for maximum efficiency?


----------



## bigwheel (Apr 18, 2008)

Gosh sure wished I wasnt so drunk as to be able to understand all this stuff. Friday is boys night out. Been doing beer and Seven Crown Shooters for the past few hours. Come on and puffed on some real crappy Marlboros. My mind is fried. Could you repeat this later? Thanks. 

Big Wheel


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 18, 2008)

massbaster said:


> maybe you addressed this in another post but i am lazy to read so many until i find it. hey at least i am honest.
> 
> anyhow, when you start to rotate the clones 2-4,4-6,6-8 how do you setup your lights for the difference in height? i am assuming that each new batch of clones would be smaller than the first batch since they would have been in flower for 2-4 weeks right?
> 
> is your hid light enough for all heights at the distance set? or do you have multiple lights to adjust for maximum efficiency?


Each 1000HPS runs a pair of trays. There's very little height difference between plants in trays 3 (wks4-6) & 4 (wks 6-, so there's no concerns there. 

However, you're right, there is a stature disparity between plants in trays 1 (wks 1-2) & 2 (wks 3-4). Plants in tray 1, being absolute beginners, are only about 8-9" tall for their first week. 

If all goes well, they will be 2-2.5x their start height in just 7 days. By the time they are ready to move on to tray 2, they are within a few inches of the height of the wk4 plants in tray 2, which themselves are pretty much at the wk 8 finishing height of about 33-36" or so. 

The week's disparity doesn't worry me much with small plants; the extra distance in the first week isn't really such a bad thing.

Though the light's lower traverse limit is the height of the tray 2 plants + 300mm (for a 1000 in a cooltube), the new residents in tray 1 have been living under deliberately weak fluoros for the past 2 weeks. The seemingly excessive distance has a purpose in 'sun hardening' the clones. A 1000HPS isn't the sun by any stretch of the imagination, but you can sunburn plants which have developed new foliage under fluoros. 

Though it's fine for more advanced plants, I wouldn't dare put a cooltubed 1000 at only 300mm over a just-planted clone whose roots have not yet knit down into the pot of media. Got to have enough rootmass to support the water demand from the leaves, which goes up dramatically with exposure to strong light. The week or so of being about 600-700mm from the nearest newbie gives them time to get their root systems developed. They then suit themselves to the right height depending on the intensity they are getting. I shift the tray 1 plants around a couple times a week to even them up.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 18, 2008)

bigwheel said:


> Gosh sure wished I wasnt so drunk as to be able to understand all this stuff. Friday is boys night out. Been doing beer and Seven Crown Shooters for the past few hours. Come on and puffed on some real crappy Marlboros. My mind is fried. Could you repeat this later? Thanks.


And _your_ pissheadedness became _*my*_ problem... when? 

Alcohol sucks. Smoke more dope.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 18, 2008)

Hey Al I was wondering again about the AC +CO2. I know I cant let it go, but if you were to put CO2+AC would you still be running your your exhaust fans, i guess you would have it there in case you need to remove the air from the room instantly right. I found a 7,500 BTU portable air conditioner that only uses 6200 watts. Would you still set up a vent system is what Im wondering wondering for flowering, mums, and clones if you had an AC. Oh, and yeah I agree down with alcohol up with dope.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 19, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> Hey Al I was wondering again about the AC +CO2. I know I cant let it go, but if you were to put CO2+AC would you still be running your your exhaust fans, i guess you would have it there in case you need to remove the air from the room instantly right.


 

If you have CO2 & AC, a throughflowing exhaust system is redundant.




> I found a 7,500 BTU portable air conditioner that only uses 6200 watts.


Check those figures!

'_*Only*_' 6200 watts?! That would require 28 amps on 220v or 56.3 amps on 120V. My house has 60A service- for the whole house.

A 7500 BTU aircon unit is really rather small and should be drawing about 620 watts, not 6200!

Portable aircon units, the sort on wheels (like this one- which oddly enough is a 7500BTU unit that draws 620 watts... ) are not very efficient. I would not expect this unit to handle a single 600, much less a 1000W HPS unless that lamp were cooltubed... in which case you still need a throughflowing ventilation system, if but for the cooltubes. These portables must have their intake and outlet vent lines run out a window. 


> Would you still set up a vent system is what Im wondering wondering for flowering, mums, and clones if you had an AC.


I'd have a cooltube system and use a window mount or split system type aircon unit.



> Oh, and yeah I agree down with alcohol up with dope.


I fucking hate drunks. I support capital punishment for drunk drivers. Those who injure or kill innocents should be worked over with a belt sander from head to toe and dipped in lemon juice before being electrocuted. 

In Merrie Olde England, for treason, they used to crucify the offender, slit open the belly and throw the living person's intestines on a red-hot bed of coals while they watched. That's _*almost*_ good enough for drunks.


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 19, 2008)

My bad your right about the 620watts! Man I appreciate all your help. You should change your name bud smoking yoda!


----------



## PlasmaRadio (Apr 19, 2008)

bigal10 said:


> My bad your right about the 620watts! Man I appreciate all your help. You should change your name bud smoking yoda!


_"Mmmm, Kicked in... This shit... Just did"_


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 20, 2008)

al, how do you feel about the vchip?

https://www.rollitup.org/politics/66957-never-accept-vchip.html#post757769

i know its kind of off the subject but you dont accept PM's.. 

can you post your opinions on the link... thanks


----------



## Scotland (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi Al, I was hoping you could provide me with some further information about your mother plants. I have 4 plants that have been grown from seed (4 weeks from putting them in kitchen paper!) and are about 8" tall and looking pretty healthy. I am keen for these 4 plants to become my original mothers and would like to know more details on how to manicure them to provide the best cloning braches. 

I understand the procedure involved in topping / fimming but am unsure when and where to do so. The plants have, as far as I understand, the fan leaves and the side shoots that form between the main stem and these fan leaves. Is it these shoots that will eventually be clones?? Almost all the cloning information I can find is for clones which will be 4" or so in height, and I know you suggest more than double this so I am keen to know your secrets!

I found this page when looking for further information, but it looks quite harsh to cut the top off the plant in this manner....
mums

Any advice you have would be gratefully received!

Thanks!


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 20, 2008)

al, you know any plumbing????

im trying to get this damn compression ring to work and my shit keeps leaking


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 20, 2008)

Scotland said:


> Hi Al, I was hoping you could provide me with some further information about your mother plants.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I understand the procedure involved in topping / fimming but am unsure when and where to do so.


I go into all that in some detail in https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html

It's not much more difficult than introducing a clone to 18+h/day light and nipping off the growing tip, forcing growth to divide. In a couple of weeks, the side branching will develop a bit, giving you nice thick stems to use for cuts.

Mine look like this right after cuttings.... and 2 weeks later:














> I found this page when looking for further information, but it looks quite harsh to cut the top off the plant in this manner....
> OpenDNS


Nah, cannabis in veg likes being cut back. It will respond by dividing growth or popping out new branches down on the mainstem when the plant is more advanced. You do wind up with something of a bonsai effect after a while. However, on older mums, branches eventually come up very thin. I've found that thicker stems root much more reliably and consistently. 







Thick stemmed cuttings outperform thinner ones. The stack on the left all have stems about 4mm or less. The stack on the right all are over 5.5mm.

The method described suggests taking many more, much smaller cuttings per mum than I do and keeping mums much longer than I do, too. I might only take 4-5 cuttings per mum each 2 weeks, but I'm choosing the thickest, most vigorous stems.

Old grow books' instructions on cloning tend to be based in outdoor growing. Often, the instruction given is to take tiny cuttings from lower branches of a plant as the donor is intended to be flowered. Mainstem tips and side branch tips are best preserved if the donor is to be flowered later. Tiny cuttings with thin stems are hard to get to set root and might benefit from heroics like cutting leaf blades in half (though that does stunt the plant) to reduce transpiration and the use of humidomes. 

We don't have those limitations in indoor ops. These days, mother plants are grown specifically to supply cuttings, so the best quality, most vigorous mainstem and larger side shoot veg growth is used for cuttings. Larger cuttings with thick stems are much easier to strike than little ones with tiny stems. No heroics required.

Cannabis is an annual. Under normal circumstances, the plants sprout, veg, flower, go to seed and die between spring and late autumn. An 8 month old cannabis plant is about the equivalent of a 100-year-old human. While it's _possible_ to keep mums in a controlled grow room environment for many years, it's not particularly advisable. The new material that grows from an old mum is still DNA identical to the mum but age can turn on some genetic signals to mutate in old age. The trick is to keep changing mums out often so they never get 'old' per se. 

I'd never consider keeping a mum for an entire year, much less 3-15 years as mentioned in the linked item. I replace mine about every 8wks or so, sometimes longer (perhaps 12wks) if they're going well. However, mums tend to get rootbound, may pick up a colony of gnats in the roots, etc. It's too easy to just grow out a clone as a new mum and trash the old one than to try to nurse along a sickish old plant. 

Ignore silliness about clones of clones losing any of their characters over time and generations. Cutting a branch off a plant does not alter the plant's DNA. I sprouted Sweet Tooth #4 seeds in 2002 and have been propagating it by cuttings ever since. 

There's no particular trick to making big clones root- it's actually much harder to get smaller ones to set root and there's less margin for error should you get the watering wrong. I don't use humidomes nor mist anything- my clonebox even has an exhaust fan. High humidity is not needed to prevent wilt if the clones can get sufficient water uptake through their stem cuts. Without humidomes, if you see wilt in a few days after doing cuttings, your scalpel or watering solution may not have been sterile or the medium was kept too wet and water uptake via the stem cut is being blocked by tissue rotted by pathogens. Use H2O2 @ 1ml/L in rockwool cube soaking and clone watering solutions. A heat mat increases speed and consistency of rooting times across a batch of cuts.

It can be difficult in the beginning to get high success rates with RW cubes. Many folks try to keep them wet or saturated. _*Sure*_ way to fail. Cubes must be only damp, never wet. A 40mm cube weighs 5g dry and 20-25g when properly damp. Heavier than that is too wet and oxygen will be driven out of the cube, causing slow rooting. When you've gotten it right, you may see first taproots showing at 5 days. I always see first roots in 7-10 days. By day 14 post cutting, the roots are developed enough to introduce the clones to the flowering area or the veg area as a new mum.

Avoid organic rooting materials like Jiffy Pots. Organic materials can support mould growth and can fragment, not a nice thing in your recirculating hydro system, where pumps can be fouled.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 20, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al, you know any plumbing????
> 
> im trying to get this damn compression ring to work and my shit keeps leaking


If you're talking about a brass ferrule compression type connection, remember that the ferrule is only good for ONE use. If you tighten it down kaddywompus and it leaks, you need to get another brass ferrule.


----------



## daddychrisg (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey Al I asked a few days back about using H2o2 with Coco, you responded that the h2o2 will break down the coco. Well I have been using coco for a few cycles now and have been using H2o2 also, and have not seen any ill affects from it, but it sure keeps the muck out of the res and lines in my flood and drain feed system. Can you elaborate on the topic further...? I have cut down on the cost of additives in my nutrient line up with the use of H2o2, and would love to keep using it...But I am always searching for knowledge, and maybe I am not aware on of the damage that I may be causing using H2o2 with coco...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 20, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> Hey Al I asked a few days back about using H2o2 with Coco, you responded that the h2o2 will break down the coco. Well I have been using coco for a few cycles now and have been using H2o2 also, and have not seen any ill affects from it, but it sure keeps the muck out of the res and lines in my flood and drain feed system. Can you elaborate on the topic further...? I have cut down on the cost of additives in my nutrient line up with the use of H2o2, and would love to keep using it...But I am always searching for knowledge, and maybe I am not aware on of the damage that I may be causing using H2o2 with coco...


As long as the coco isn't fragmenting, keep using the H2O2. There's not much more I can add to what I've already said. The only problem I can see is the bits getting loose and fouling your pump. However, if the coco you have made from particularly woody material, it may survive H2O2 better than I'd thought.


----------



## Scotland (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks for your reply Al. Should I go ahead and cut the main stem above the second set of fan leaves then? I will be taking away about 5" of growth! The trimming is really worrying me. I am not sure where to do it, how often to do it, whether to trim every new shoot to encourage side shoots... I am lost Al - any more pointers?!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 20, 2008)

Scotland said:


> Thanks for your reply Al. Should I go ahead and cut the main stem above the second set of fan leaves then? I will be taking away about 5" of growth!


Yep, above the 2nd or 3rd node will be fine. 

Don't panic.  Get used to lopping off bits of plant and composting it!  It'll grow back incredibly quickly. Cannabis can easily grow vegetatively an inch+ a day with lots of light & other conds correct. 

When I do a batch of cuttings and prune back mums, I fill a 10L bucket packed solidly full of plant trimming waste, about 1-1.5kg of the stuff. I grow much more plant material than I need so I can have my choice of the biggest, thickest fresh stems.



> The trimming is really worrying me. I am not sure where to do it, how often to do it, whether to trim every new shoot to encourage side shoots... I am lost Al - any more pointers?!


Stop worrying. Lop the mainstem at the 2nd or 3rd node. Don't trim the side shoots, let them grow out- those will be your first batch of cuts in about 2 weeks if your plants are under an HID light, ~3wks under fluoros. When you do your batches of clones in future, that will be all the pruning they need.


----------



## daddychrisg (Apr 20, 2008)

*As long as the coco isn't fragmenting, keep using the H2O2. There's not much more I can add to what I've already said. The only problem I can see is the bits getting loose and fouling your pump. However, if the coco you have made from particularly woody material, it may survive H2O2 better than I'd thought.

*_I am using two different manufactures of Coco right now, one is definitely more "woody" then the other. I will pay careful attention to how much the coco is breaking down and making its way out of the baskets that holds the coco/perlite/silica. Thanks for the advice...If I come up with solid conclusions about this "matter" I will let you know...._


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 20, 2008)

Yep, you're right, it's not a huge deal. Media breaking up due to exposure to H2O2 is not much of a worry, as long as it's not plugging up pumps. It's not like trying to use organic nutes and watching them foam & fizz away to nothing when H2O2 hits them.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 21, 2008)

"Stop worrying. Lop the mainstem at the 2nd or 3rd node. Don't trim the side shoots, let them grow out- those will be your first batch of cuts in about 2 weeks if your plants are under an HID light, ~3wks under fluoros. When you do your batches of clones in future, that will be all the pruning they need"

i have new seeds that are at about 23 days old they are under 600 hps so the are going good. they have about 4 sets of leaves only 2 sets with 5 full leaves and have obviously 4 internodes...they are still only about 5 inches tall. do you suggest topping these??? and then if the answer is yes which ive gathered but being for sure. i do think they might be a little premature but i dunno shit from sticks....then in about 3 more weeks i can cut the sprouts from the internodes off each main top or do i use the actual 2 tops themselves as the first donations?

i think i just read this right my bad...after topping the plant 4 internodes up. the 3 internodes below the cut will get more growth and become the donations when large enuf, and there is 6 per plant there. brainfart or something there sorry...


SORRY AL CANT GET HELP ON THIS. and i didnt want another post just to ask if you know how to downsize a pic to upload it on to the site. i dunno how and admin hasnt replied to me...


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you're talking about a brass ferrule compression type connection, remember that the ferrule is only good for ONE use. If you tighten it down kaddywompus and it leaks, you need to get another brass ferrule.


okay al, im officially pissed. i just said fuck it! and the dude at the hardware store advice. fuck his 25 years of plumbing experience....the shit didnt work. I'm no plumber by anymeans....but i know im not dumb well not to the point where i cant figure this shit out, its not rocket science. i knew damn well the pressure would spit the poly. tubing out of the saddle valve ASAP, WITH or WITHOUT the compression fittings. Hell i even got all three different compression. i used the rubber ones, the plastic ones and the copper/metal ones. FUCK IT!

im kinda even more pissed because i put a hole in my run line (water line to the faucet) i used a saddle valve. i guess i could just leave the saddle on there, but i dont want to leave it there especially if its not in use. *do you have a solution for a quick fix instead of getting a whole 'nother flex tube? what about some type of plumbing putty that can withstand high pressure? i just want to chalk that hole that was made from the saddle valve*

anyways...so i found a solution. well i knew what i wanted, but the name i was told was a feed valve....come to find out, which i barely find. The real name or the plumbing standard name is a angle stop adapter valve. i kinda like them John Guest's push in quick connectors. pretty damn sexy!!!!

see al, all this damn work for nothing....guess i shoulda listened to you aye? i just had to have a water filtration system and look at the headache its given me....lol

oh yea....interesting news bro. why is the spring water i pay for higher in ppms than my tap? The spring water was sitting at 140-150 ppms with a ph of 7.60-7.80. My tap was delivering me 100-110 ppms with a ph of 7.40-7.50. And best for last.......tell me why the rain water i harvested is sitting at a very favorable 014- 016 ppms with a ph of 8.60 or so. Fucking interesting aye?

Aint that a bitch. I pay for spring water, yet my tap water is lower in ppms. I buy a filtration system and my damn rain water gives my RO system a run for its money....what in the hell al...lol.


and al, once again....thanks for being such an encyclopedia man, you really seem to be jack of all, master of none....i see you dibble and dabble in a little bit aye? thanks for all the help


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (Apr 21, 2008)

This thread is a really good resource, and I have been reading it for a few days now. I searched about your odor control methods, but I was wondering if you could go into some more detail about how you have your Ozone gens set up, how many you have, and if you feel it has completely eliminated the smell.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> al, how do you feel about the vchip?
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/politics/66957-never-accept-vchip.html#post757769
> 
> ...


Vchip, national ID cards and microchipping people are all very different things.

On Vchip: Parents should act like parents and monitor their children's TV viewing. When kids do encounter age-inappropriate material, it's a great 'teachable moment.' You don't keep kids from drowning by banning water- you teach them to swim.

On national ID cards, I'm fully opposed. One should have the right to move freely and anonymously within one's home country without being molested by police. Police should only have the ability to seize and search persons reasonably suspected of criminal activity, not merely to verify one's identity.

On microchipping people as we chip our cats & dogs, if a person does so voluntarily for whatever reason (such as identification of remains), I'm OK with it. Obviously, I'm opposed to involuntary microchipping.

Saw your list of links. There's some seriously tinfoil-hatted conspiracy crap going in some of those. I have absolutely no patience for conspiracy theories- in fact they piss me off massively, for the most part. It makes me lose faith in the grand capacities of the human mind when they are so enthusiastically wasted. It depresses me to no end that some people are not only stupid enough to believe these steaming piles of 'wisdom,' but propagate them. Tabloid journalism/TV shit me off for just the same reason. Massive conspiracies don't work because there's too many people who have to keep secrets- and humans just suck a whole bag of ass at secrecy.

My general experience with people who spread conspiracy theories is that they feel out of control of their own lives and have to help others to feel out of control too. Spread the misery, if you will. Thanks, I'm in control of my life and don't believe governments are necessarily impenetrable, malevolent monoliths beyond the reach of the commoner.

In my real life, I'm hugely politically active, as you might expect. I _*know*_ you can make a democratic government bend to the will of the people. You can unseat a bad government in a democracy. I've recently helped do _*just*_ that! (_edit-_ If I ever disappear suddenly, it's not because I've been _busted_... it's because I've been _*elected*._ )

There's one or two events in recent history that mirror some of the hallmarks of conspiracy theories in their sheer outlandishness on the face, but actually did happen i.e. US presidential election manipulation in 2000 & 2004, the notion that the US was actually after control of Iraqi oil instead of WMD, that Saddam had no WMD etc. All were once very tinfoil-hattishly presented in media (late 2002). Sometimes "they" put one big conspiracy past you, but it takes some truly criminal activities at the very top to make such happen- and it always comes out. GWB and a few of his closest friends DO have a date in The Hague.

But you know... I think the times, they are a changin'. Note the 2006 US congressional midterm elections. The voters threw the bums out. Too bad the new bums were the almost same as the old bums... the USA is about to have its own glasnost, if it is to survive at all. Outsiders are the candidates to pick, as long as they're fans of the US Constitution as written.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> Aint that a bitch. I pay for spring water, yet my tap water is lower in ppms. I buy a filtration system and my damn rain water gives my RO system a run for its money....what in the hell al...lol.


well, ya know...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> SORRY AL CANT GET HELP ON THIS.


um, yes you can- and just did, didn't you? I don't THINK I imagined typing up some notes for you...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> This thread is a really good resource, and I have been reading it for a few days now.


Thanks. 



> I searched about your odor control methods, but I was wondering if you could go into some more detail about how you have your Ozone gens set up, how many you have, and if you feel it has completely eliminated the smell.


O3 is great for killing scents but even at a level strong enough to cause spotting on some leaves was not helping keep down powdery mildew, so I just pointed it into the exhaust line. I'm addressing powdery mildew with a sulfur 'burner' at the moment. 

I moved the Uvonair 5000 O3 gen so its output is right under the main exhaust blower, so all its output is going down the exhaust line. It now also is plugged into the thermostat which runs the main blower, so now it only runs when the exhaust blower is running. 

This frequent switching on & off will shorten the life of the UV tube. I'm thinking about putting the O3 gen in the exhaust duct, after the main exhaust blower, and just let it run 24/7/365. The tube will last about 3-4 years in constant operation, but about half that when switched on & off frequently.

I have another O3 gen, a Uvonair 3000, which treats air coming out of the bud dryer. 

Yes- O3 is 100% effective in knocking down scent. I use UV O3 gens instead of carbon filters because carbon filters lose effectiveness, slowly, until the carbon granules must be replaced, roughly yearly. The UV O3 gens only require an infrequent dusting with compressed air and relamping every few years. UV O3 is the cheapest scent control method in the long run, lowest maintenance and most effective, to boot.

Since I'm in the grow all the time, my nose is not very sensitive to the scent of buds. I test scent killing effectiveness by using a marker scent like eucalytpus oil on a rag hung near the main exhaust blower. If I can't smell gum tree oil out of the exhaust line, no one will smell buds, either.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Saw your list of links. There's some seriously tinfoil-hatted conspiracy crap going in some of those. I have absolutely no patience for conspiracy theories- in fact they piss me off massively, for the most part. It makes me lose faith in the grand capacities of the human mind when they are so enthusiastically wasted. It depresses me to no end that some people are not only stupid enough to believe these steaming piles of 'wisdom,' but propagate them. Tabloid journalism/TV shit me off for just the same reason. Massive conspiracies don't work because there's too many people who have to keep secrets- and humans just suck a whole bag of ass at secrecy.
> 
> My general experience with people who spread conspiracy theories is that they feel out of control of their own lives and have to help others to feel out of control too. Spread the misery, if you will. Thanks, I'm in control of my life and don't believe governments are necessarily impenetrable, malevolent monoliths beyond the reach of the commoner.
> 
> ...


 
As far as conspiracy theories go I know nothing is impossible. With *GREED *as motivation people will do anything.

As far as government goes.. I'm an Anarchist. Some think Anarchy is complete chaos, it isn't. Is it well educated individuals working together for a common goal without a governing body. Each think for themselves.. they are made fully aware of the outcomes of their actions.. no "right" or "wrong".. just cause and effect.. consequences to actions.

I'd love to see you in office AL!





Enigma


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 21, 2008)

al, what about the hole from the saddle valve?


----------



## Sherry (Apr 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've been browsing around the boards a bit while taking a break from the snipping. One common thread I keep finding is that too many growers are working way too hard, particularly on nutes.
> 
> Dunno, could be because I'm a stoned slacker or because I'm running a production line op that makes a lot of dope and I don't want to fuck with it constantly (_and_ I make stupid stoner mistakes!), but I simplify and make robust or errorproof my processes wherever I can. Some of my foolproofing and fuckwit factor reductions involve compromises to max yield per plant, but never to quality.
> 
> ...


I really like this idea - I am ready to clone (for outdoor) with the first 20 plants - I have about 2 weeks before cloning the remaining 27 plants (for outdoor as well.)..

I will be taking clones from the outdoor plants - first I'm topping and then I'm getting 3 cloning from one branch a week or two later - from only the best looking/performing plants in each strain.

all told I plan on having 350 plants, with hopefully at least 250 females (I have feminized seeds but I know some will go hermie on me - they'll be ripped up ASAP and their plant number/strain will then determine which of my clones came from those hermi plants - I'll discard them asap - or my clones will tell me which outdoor plants are hermie.. whatever way - doesn't matter).

Then I'll take 30 clones and flower 'em every 2 weeks while I'm waiting for my outdoor harvest (sept/oct) I WILLL HAVE WEED!

This would work perfectly for me - I don't have a bunch o lights - but I do have 5 x 6' area I will be sooooo happy to utilize during spring/summer.

Man, No jonesing thru summer!! Finally my analytical/statistical nature is being utilized as well - gotta keep that brain sharp at all times.

I'm planning on keeping my best of the best cloned in that little area after outdoor harvest in sept/oct all the way through March/April '09- I'll start off next year with a short harvest and all the clones I can use for outside growing - Have my Plants and smoke em too...

Now if I could just lessen the aroma so that no one coming over visiting will have the slightest inkling that I'm growing (amazing how many friends you make when they know you're near 'harvest time' "old buddy ol pal, have we told you lately just how much WE LUV You?"....)

Thanks for the tips, I love this forum - you all make me very happy!!
sherry


----------



## Scotland (Apr 21, 2008)

_Stop worrying. Lop the mainstem at the 2nd or 3rd node. Don't trim the side shoots, let them grow out- those will be your first batch of cuts in about 2 weeks if your plants are under an HID light, ~3wks under fluoros. When you do your batches of clones in future, that will be all the pruning they need._

Thanks for the advice Al. I lopped two mainstems out of the four plants I have (Still a little nervous!) and they seem to be responding well. I will do the other two plants tomorrow when I have convinced myself that they will not die!

Now I have the confidence to trim, is there any further trimming I should do? Should I nip out the side shoots of the stems I will be using for clones or is there a better way of ensuring that the plants energy goes in to making thick strong and long branches for me to use for clones?

This is my first grow and I'm still not 100% as to how the plant grows. The 'goblet' shape which I now have by cutting out the main stem is a good start - but I am not sure how to maintain this shape and which shoots to use and concentrate on for clones. Having trawled the internet - the only article I could find that showed how to care for mothers was the one I linked on a previous post - and the outline you give on the clones thread. 

Perhaps I am just being stupid - but as clones are going to be vital to copy your technique - I want to make sure I am treating the Mothers correctly and preparing them well to ensure perfect clonable branches!

Thanks


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> um, yes you can- and just did, didn't you? I don't THINK I imagined typing up some notes for you...


 
.................i dont think i understand...no i still don know how to post pics but ill figure it out, my old pics are from an old shitty cam now i got a new one with all these megapixels and shit and the pics are way to big to upload. anyone know how to doensize a pic please pm me thanx. i have pix i have questions about and cant get them on here...............

your right i didnt think youd want to "_type up some notes for me"_ i just figured you knew how to get pix on here so i could ask some ?s
thanx tho...


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 21, 2008)

Scotland said:


> _Stop worrying. Lop the mainstem at the 2nd or 3rd node. Don't trim the side shoots, let them grow out- those will be your first batch of cuts in about 2 weeks if your plants are under an HID light, ~3wks under fluoros. When you do your batches of clones in future, that will be all the pruning they need._
> 
> Thanks for the advice Al. I lopped two mainstems out of the four plants I have (Still a little nervous!) and they seem to be responding well. I will do the other two plants tomorrow when I have convinced myself that they will not die!
> 
> ...


 






notice the middle plant. when lopping the mainstem this is what you will get. after this youl notice the sprouts below where you cut the mainstem. when cutting the clone leave a sprout below the cut point so they will grow out afterwards. and these will be your first clones. then where you left the sprouts under where you cut your clones those will be your clones next time around. and so on. as long as there is sprouts to sprout they will. look at als clone pics and notice the moms how they are split all over the place from 1stem to 2 stems, this is the cause of clone cutting


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks for the response on the O3 gens. That is a really good point about the eucalyptus leaves. I could just get something that smells really strong and see if I can smell it. I didn't really want to ask anyone if they could smell weed lol. I'm not telling a soul about this, and asking someone if they smell weed would be kind of weird.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al, what about the hole from the saddle valve?


 dunno, what about it?

What's a saddle valve? 

If you can't fix it with a brick and small calibre firearms, I'm not going to be very helpful!



Sherry said:


> I will be taking clones from the outdoor plants - first I'm topping and then I'm getting 3 cloning from one branch a week or two later - from only the best looking/performing plants in each strain.
> 
> all told I plan on having 350 plants, with hopefully at least 250 females (I have feminized seeds but I know some will go hermie on me - they'll be ripped up ASAP and their plant number/strain will then determine which of my clones came from those hermi plants - I'll discard them asap - or my clones will tell me which outdoor plants are hermie.. whatever way - doesn't matter).


Why plant 350 seeds and risk 50% (175) males? Why not plant 10 beans and clone from the statistical 50% which come up female?

Bringing plant material indoors that has been raised outdoors is a recipe for _*utter *_disaster. Please don't do this. Your next stop here on RIU will be for help getting all the spider mites and other nonsense out of your grow op.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 21, 2008)




----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

Enigma said:


> As far as conspiracy theories go I know nothing is impossible. With *GREED *as motivation people will do anything.


 Yes, but *GREED* also makes people commit incredibly stupid mistakes which usually unravel _Ye Olde Conspiracie_.



Enigma said:


> As far as government goes.. I'm an Anarchist.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I'd love to see you in office AL!


 Hey now, which is it? Anarchy or elected office? Make up yer mind, man! 

Of course, I'm also very fond of anarchy. However, I've worked out that I can do a _*lot*_ more to dismantle the system from _within _than _without_.  

Even if one does not do that dismantling by running for office in a party with which one generally agrees, there's still *lots* of phun to be had. It's impossibly great entertainment to join an authoritarian/conservative party... and then nick/divert/corrupt their mailing lists and create other general mayhem when no one is looking.  Try it sometime. 



Scotland said:


> Should I nip out the side shoots of the stems I will be using for clones or is there a better way of ensuring that the plants energy goes in to making thick strong and long branches for me to use for clones?


 No, don't nip out the side shoots. That's what will be developing into material you will use for cuttings. All you need do is lop the mainstem and wait. Resist the urge to fiddle with stuff. This is all a lot simpler than you fear!



> This is my first grow and I'm still not 100% as to how the plant grows. The 'goblet' shape which I now have by cutting out the main stem is a good start - but I am not sure how to maintain this shape and which shoots to use and concentrate on for clones.


 In terms of maintaining the mum, taking batches of clones should be sufficient pruning. If you don't take off enough material in cloning to get the mum nice and short, just cut the mum back more. 

When I cut back mums, they might be 3' tall when I start but 8-10" when I'm done. Cannabis plants in veg can be cut back _*severely*_- and they absolutely love it. You can cut a healthy mother plant down to just a stem and a few leaves- and it will grow back, usually thicker than it was before pruning.



cmak40 said:


> anyone know how to doensize a pic please pm me thanx. i have pix i have questions about and cant get them on here...............


While it's klunky as hell, you _can_ resize pix with MS Paint, as included with Winblows. You can also download freeware/shareware applications like PaintShopPro which you can use to resize imgs. Just Google for image editing applications. 



hornedfrog2000 said:


> Thanks for the response on the O3 gens. That is a really good point about the eucalyptus leaves. I could just get something that smells really strong and see if I can smell it. I didn't really want to ask anyone if they could smell weed lol. I'm not telling a soul about this, and asking someone if they smell weed would be kind of weird.


I took a wick-type air freshener whose scented goo had run out and filled it with eucalyptus oil. It now hangs right by the exhaust blower intake. It is only used as a marker scent- I don't expect even highly pungent gum tree oil to mask the scent of buds. All I expect if the ozonator is working correctly is to NOT smell any gum tree oil out of the exhaust line.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


>


oh, OK, now I see what you're doing. 

I last used one of these in 1981 or so when I was connecting a fridge's icemaker to a water line. 

It leaked like a sieve from the point where it pierces the water line. 

I wound up cutting out the pierced piece of copper tube with a tubing cutter and soldered in a T. Connected that to a standard valve. 

Soldering copper tube is a piece of cake as long as there's no water in the tubing. Just need a propane torch, sandpaper, flux & pipe solder. Clean the work to be soldered with 250 or 400 grit sandpaper, flux it, warm it up a bit so the acid flux cleans off any copper oxide, fit the bits together, heat the work and flow the solder into the joint. Easy.

Like I said before, the brass ferrule compression fitting used to connect the plastic tubing to the valve is a one-shot. If you don't have it lined up perfectly straight when you tighten it down, it'll leak. If you have to re-do one of these fittings, you'll need a new brass ferrule and will have to cut the end of the plastic tube off.

However easy it is to do this sort of job, knowing what I know about tapwater and growing plants, it's a lot of work for no benefit.


----------



## Sherry (Apr 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Why plant 350 seeds and risk 50% (175) males? Why not plant 10 beans and clone from the statistical 50% which come up female?
> 
> Bringing plant material indoors that has been raised outdoors is a recipe for _*utter *_disaster. Please don't do this. Your next stop here on RIU will be for help getting all the spider mites and other nonsense out of your grow op.


I'm not Planting 350 seeds, Mr. Man  - I am planting 16 day old's next week and 28 about 2 1/2 weeks from now. I AM cloning - from feminizied seeds - 38 - 48 of them.
I will get clones from my feminized Plants - up to 3 clones from each plant (I have 7 strains currently). I will then top all the clones ("clonelings" for want of a better term) for cloning and repeat the process - I'll have 350- 400 plants.

After I reach the magic number of plants outside, then I'll start with 30 or so cuttings and begin the "Harvest every 2 weeks" Plan inside.

Man, I get to sample each strain before my first harvest - then figure out my needs for the indoor winter/spring plan.

As for the spider mites and many other bugs - I have lady bugs - but before the ladybugs I cleaned out the 1/2 room I'm using for seedlings and cuttings and used some DE. I will keep an eye on my girls (the percentage of females I hope for is 75-80%). I prepped the soil outside with DE as well - that shit really works...

Besides, by mid-june the only plants indoors will be the 30- 35 cuttings I'll be using for the Every 2 week harvest - I can keep it bug-free!!

I want to thank you, I repped ya, this topic - took me a few weeks to zero in on it. I love the idea of utilizing all available assets - I may not have a boatload of $$$ but I've got land - about 3 acres - and some spare room inside. 
what more could I ask for - except more topics like this to maximize yield, buzz, space and time? 

It sounds sorta einsteinian.
peace, sherry


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

Sherry said:


> I'm not Planting 350 seeds, Mr. Man  - I am planting 16 day old's next week and 28 about 2 1/2 weeks from now. I AM cloning - from feminizied seeds - 38 - 48 of them.
> I will get clones from my feminized Plants - up to 3 clones from each plant (I have 7 strains currently). I will then top all the clones ("clonelings" for want of a better term) for cloning and repeat the process - I'll have 350- 400 plants.





> Originally Posted by *Sherry*
> _
> all told I plan on having 350 plants, with hopefully at least 250 females (I have feminized seeds but I know some will go hermie on me -_


right- I was trying to work out what relationship feminised seeds had to plants going herm... 

I don't think I'd start taking cuttings until I had known female donors. 

Doesn't matter whether your clones come from plants grown from feminised seeds or not- if the donor plant is female, the clones will stay female, unless you introduce some conditions to trigger hermaphrodism. Interrupting dark periods, pH probs, nute strength inconsistencies all can induce hermaphrodism. Feminised seeds will not stop a plant from going herm if you treat it badly enough. Hermaphrodism is an evolved response to the plant encountering poor conditions, where it may not survive to be pollinated by a nearby male and so makes a few male florets on its own to self-pollinate and attempt to assure reproduction. 

Feminised seeds are helpful to some applications but by no means are a sure thing. They come up about 80% female as opposed to the 50% average for ordinary seeds (which is why they are sold as 'feminised' seeds, not 'female' seeds). I don't think I'd spend any dough on feminised seeds if I just needed to establish a few females and start doing cuts off them. If I buy 10 regular old beans, I'll get 5 females just on average. If I get even one female, I have a going concern.



> As for the spider mites and many other bugs - I have lady bugs - but before the ladybugs I cleaned out the 1/2 room I'm using for seedlings and cuttings and used some DE.


What's 'DE'?

Gee, I hope the ladybugs do their thing for ya... rotsaruck.



> I want to thank you, I repped ya, this topic - took me a few weeks to zero in on it. I love the idea of utilizing all available assets - I may not have a boatload of $$$ but I've got land - about 3 acres - and some spare room inside.


Well, you're most welcome- but I do think that if you're going to do indoor, do indoor. If you start with a clean grow op and grow fully indoors from seed, you have the best chance for uninterrupted success. Bugs will eventually find their way in (notably gnats), but they don't need any help!  Keep in mind that it's incredibly difficult to get bugs out of a continuous harvest op once they have established, no matter how many ladybugs you throw at them.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hey now, which is it? Anarchy or elected office? Make up yer mind, man!
> 
> Of course, I'm also very fond of anarchy. However, I've worked out that I can do a _*lot*_ more to dismantle the system from _within _than _without_.


Well, just one Anarchist standing on the top of the hill yelling at the establishment won't make a difference.

Now, an Anarchist working in the valley with the sheeple will.

I'd also like to know how well Linux would work with being able to jump ip's and further my techno-security.





Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 21, 2008)

Enigma said:


> I'd also like to know how well Linux would work with being able to jump ip's and further my techno-security.


jump IPs? Huh? Do you want to hide your real IP?

If you want to conceal your IP, use Tor. It's available for Linux, but would do the same job on a Winblows machine or a Mac.


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 21, 2008)

DE = diatomous (sp) earth


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 21, 2008)

al, do you use proxies? think we should use proxies?


----------



## Enigma (Apr 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> jump IPs? Huh? Do you want to hide your real IP?
> 
> If you want to conceal your IP, use Tor. It's available for Linux, but would do the same job on a Winblows machine or a Mac.


 
That is wxactly what I wanted!

Thanks!





Enigma


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 22, 2008)

lol, heres one for you al 

YouTube - FREE ENERGY Home Generator -Zero Point Energy - Off the Grid

your an EE, what do you think about this? would solve some problems


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 22, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> al, do you use proxies? think we should use proxies?


Proxies are good and bad. If you use one, don't use a free one, pay for the service. Free proxies are often honeypots, designed to surveil and intercept passwords, etc. If you do use a free proxy, use it for browsing but don't run a password (or any other sensitive data) through it, i.e. logging in on RIU. Secure web pages may save your traffic from being surveilled by the proxy but many free proxies don't allow https:// just for the reason that they _*can't*_ surveil the traffic and thus have no benefit from maintaining the facility. There's no such thing as a free lunch. 



We TaRdED said:


> lol, heres one for you al
> 
> YouTube - FREE ENERGY Home Generator -Zero Point Energy - Off the Grid
> 
> your an EE, what do you think about this? would solve some problems


Soon as the con artist... err... fuckknuckle... err... 'inventor' behind this one rewrites the rules of physics, it'll solve _*lots*_ of problems. 

There's no such thing as 'free energy' because you can't get more energy out of a system than you put in it. There's... um... no such thing as a free lunch. 

'Free energy' is a tax on people stupid enough to believe in conspiracies and lazy enough not to understand basic science.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 22, 2008)

Hey Al, you're the man. I'm following up pretty well though. By next year, I may become a guru. LoL. I am going to borrow a friends digi cam, you have to see my wikidness. I need even more space. I can't imagine what your space looks like and I'm sure you want more. My space went from a stealth veg box to a rubbermaid shed (oversized closet) for my flowering and I have every inch pretty much fulled. Talk to you later.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> There's no such thing as 'free energy' because you can't get more energy out of a system than you put in it. There's... um... no such thing as a free lunch.
> 
> 'Free energy' is a tax on people stupid enough to believe in conspiracies and lazy enough not to understand basic science.


 
DAMN RIGHT!

*The Law of Energy Conservation*

Energy in is energy out. It can niether be created nor destroyed, only transformed.

One question: I know Windows sucks ass.. but how much more difficult is it to use Linux?

I've been wanting to build a monster mobile PC with Linux so I can access WLAN connections where they are available and keep my connection hidden.

Much thanks Guru!





Enigma


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 22, 2008)

Dude the best thing is to go with Mac OSX, I use a mac at my home and you can go private right from the desktop. Everything at the click of a button. Mac OSX is based on Linux, but more user friendly. I have no exp. with Linux. Other than I had a friend who I knew that booted linux and then can chose Windows or OSX. Let me know your choice. Dude you would be surprised how far a little mac mini will go. Go to apple.com 10 reasons to buy a Mac. Might change your mind.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 22, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Dude the best thing is to go with Mac OSX, I use a mac at my home and you can go private right from the desktop. Everything at the click of a button. Mac OSX is based on Linux, but more user friendly. I have no exp. with Linux. Other than I had a friend who I knew that booted linux and then can chose Windows or OSX. Let me know your choice. Dude you would be surprised how far a little mac mini will go. Go to apple.com 10 reasons to buy a Mac. Might change your mind.


 
I use windows because it is what I know. I'd rather learn the programming and program my own.. but shit.. that takes time I could be smoking.. and loving my favourite female


----------



## Sherry (Apr 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Doesn't matter whether your clones come from plants grown from feminised seeds or not- if the donor plant is female, the clones will stay female, unless you introduce some conditions to trigger hermaphrodism. Interrupting dark periods, pH probs, nute strength inconsistencies all can induce hermaphrodism. Feminised seeds will not stop a plant from going herm if you treat it badly enough. Hermaphrodism is an evolved response to the plant encountering poor conditions, where it may not survive to be pollinated by a nearby male and so makes a few male florets on its own to self-pollinate and attempt to assure reproduction.
> 
> Feminised seeds are helpful to some applications but by no means are a sure thing. They come up about 80% female as opposed to the 50% average for ordinary seeds (which is why they are sold as 'feminised' seeds, not 'female' seeds). I don't think I'd spend any dough on feminised seeds if I just needed to establish a few females and start doing cuts off them. If I buy 10 regular old beans, I'll get 5 females just on average. If I get even one female, I have a going concern.
> 
> ...


Hey Al B,

You do raise some valid points, especially with the 'Feminized seeds' - I am naturally assuming 80% female and 20% hermi/male. Those aren't bad odds -

This year it's important for me to weed em out - NEXT YEAR's grow will be purer - that's my plan - it's a 5 Year Plan (not like russia or china's 5 Yr. Plan - mine will be successful 

About feminized seeds: I'm hoping they all stay female but I'm a realist - I have been working hard so far not to introduce any environmentally-adverse conditions or stressors that would 'change' sex for my plants - however no one's perfect - but I try (Ph, daytime/night-time temp, light schedule, nutes, any other stressing factors that would influence the big sex switch, etc. 

I don't wanna turn that switch on man....

Not to try for a harvest indoors while waiting for my outdoor harvest in september/october to dry and cure - is insanity to me; even though I only have a half of a spare room to grow indoors- your 'harvest every 2 weeks' plan is PERFECT for my limited space and my lack of smokeable bud. In fact, it's really the only way I'll get any bud - I don't have that many lights because I am OUTDOORS - I do have 4 lights that's it. all my resources are mostly Outside except my rockwool and Fox Farms and Nutes and my whole half of a room - whoopee!!..

I don't plan on doing a uninterrupible harvest either - around mid-to-late August I should have enough of the indoor bud to 'tide me over' to October - in September/Oct I'll get my starter clones (for next years outdoor grow) from all 7 strains & in February '09 I will be cloning from those plants - that's their only purpose - I'll know for sure the ones with the best yield, best high, and of course - ALL FEMALE.. And by April/May 09 I'll be able to start a fresh batch of clones for the harvest every 2 weeks; or if I do have a bug problem I'll grow & bud two batches, then leave the room empty - I'll collect my ladybugs (you'd be surprised how insatiable their appetites are - I love em) exterminate the room (the outdoor plants and soil will also be as bug-free as possible) and start over - I should get at least 6 indoor harvests. I'd be really happy with that. Some bud is better than no bud at all...

I'm sure something will 'screw up' between now and next february 09 but hey, that's life. I've screwed up so many times in life I've lost track - I should get a trophy or a plaque for "Best Screw-Up" - all the way back to 1974!! But then I wouldn't have ANY room for indoors..

However, from August this year until I start harvesting in late sept/oct - the 1/2 room will be as bug-free as I can get it - 'cause I need as much drying space as I can get - I only have 1/2 extra room and 1 extra closet for drying (if I need extra drying space I'll throw all my clothes away if I have to!! & use my personal walk-in (HUGE) closet - I don't mind suffering - I've done it before.. - not the throwing my clothes away,  I'll bomb the Hell out of this place if I have to.

It's been 20+ years since I grew - I am finding I didn't forget a lot of stuff - of course it's much better growing NOW - I'm in a small town in the East coast USA - they don't have anything here - MH or HPS - I had to go 60 miles just to buy the fox farm - can't afford to have it shipped here. I remember starting from bagseed ('cause that's all there was - no online seedbanks, no possibility of getting 80%+ female seeds) and in 18 months I had all female afghani clones for indoor growing - but I had 2 rooms to grow. I didn't grow anything outdoors - nada. I had the occasional hermaphrodite I had to kill. Nature is like that - in order for any plant to evolve it must reproduce - that's another variable with all female plants - sooner or later they're gonna want to breed...

Your plan is pure genius - hell, it's made for people like me, Al; I document everything (some of it in my head) strains and have my number/letter ID system w/other variables - those tiny indoor grows will let me know what plants outside are truly female - if I only have 48 -50 plant outside (along with their clones taken and documented) I'lll rip em up long before they even flower outside. ...

So that serves 2 purposes - I get some bud to tide me over & I know which outdoor plants/clones aren't female...

I'd like to thank ya for replying - but I do know the risks - but if you don't take a risk you don't benefit, you don't learn anything. I'm willing to take a chance. I'll take some pics as soon as I get a decent camera..

Oh, and the DE is Diatomaceous Earth; I've got the 2 1/2 acres I'll be utilizing - I'm clumping plants in 6+ hours direct sun and 4+ hourse direct sun - lots of trees and bushes and shit but it's my property and no one (LEO) even flies over and NO Foot traffic - I applied the DE in January and again in early april and the results are better than I ever expected..
have a peacful mellow day, Sherry


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Proxies are good and bad. If you use one, don't use a free one, pay for the service. Free proxies are often honeypots, designed to surveil and intercept passwords, etc. If you do use a free proxy, use it for browsing but don't run a password (or any other sensitive data) through it, i.e. logging in on RIU. Secure web pages may save your traffic from being surveilled by the proxy but many free proxies don't allow https:// just for the reason that they _*can't*_ surveil the traffic and thus have no benefit from maintaining the facility. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
> 
> 
> 
> .....


so with that said..... a person who has been posting from the jump with no proxy.....would you recommend them to start? or no because they can just pick up where you left off?


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 22, 2008)

LB you better have a big ass high yeilding op to be this paranoid. im jk but relax a little isnt that y u smoke...lol


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 22, 2008)

not really paranoid, my friend.


knowledge is power..... inquiring minds just wanted al's opinion


----------



## southfloridasean (Apr 22, 2008)

Nice info AL.


----------



## Sherry (Apr 22, 2008)

LoudBlunts said:


> so with that said..... a person who has been posting from the jump with no proxy.....would you recommend them to start? or no because they can just pick up where you left off?


Well, there are basically 2 types of internet connections - static (stays the same) or dynamic (changes) IP addresses.
You can switch to a 'high anonymity Proxy/IP address - also called Level 1 ELITE proxy, there are many software products out there - like Glock Software 'advanced administrative Tools' - with that software you search within an I.P. range and then analyze or "test' each proxy for the level of anonymity.

When you find anon proxies you can easily (within the program) "plug in" the fresh anon proxy and browse the Internet with that proxy/IP.

The main drawbacks to that software or software like it - 
1. Your Internet Service Provider will know you're prowling around for these proxies since they 'die' so quickly you usually want to have 15 or 20 of em handy, and then after they all 'die' search for more fresh proxies. Just because they KNOW doesn't mean they'll make a stink over it - depends on who your ISP is.
2. Sometimes the anon Level 1 Proxy is connected to a PC online that has DIAL-UP - if you're on Broadband or T1 etc - your Internet browsing - they'll take forever to load up - because of the slow bandwidth per second
3. If you don't configure the software to stay away from known honeypot IP's or .gov, .edu. and TENS OF thousands of other IP addresses known to be honeypots ETC- THOSE SITES/IP'S collect YOUR IP Address, YOUR computer name and and can make your life a living hell. There are some sites online that have somewhat updated IP lists that are excluded from being scanned by your PC 

You can do specific proxy searches with that software - say, you want to find Level 1 proxies in a certain country - you can do that. 
"High Anonymity' proxies Usually will cover your tracks online, and there are websites you can go to and find out if your new IP address is really as high anon as the program says it is. 

Some people also like to use different stealth IP's for their outgoing emails, or "SOCKS 5 proxies" - they connect to your mail server - that way whoever is getting an email from you doesn't see YOUR REAL IP address - for whatever reasons you would want to be anonymous.
Do a google search for Proxy Finder, Glock software, Stealth proxies, etc - you'll find lots of software that's pretty easy to configure.

As for the 'jump' I'm not sure if you're talking about YOUR real I.P address before switching to a high anon proxy, or if you mean "Chained IP's" (which is setting several High Elite Level 1 Proxies and chaining them together so you can switch to another chained proxy each time you 'refresh' your browser, and then the next IP in the chain and so on until you're back at the first chained proxy - people will do that if they're really SUPER paranoid (are super paranoid?) - it's much more difficult for your ISP or the ISP of your anon IP's to track you through their server's DNS cache since you're using so many chained IP's - they probably won't want to take the time or effort to go thru all of those chained IP server records.


good luck
sherry


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 22, 2008)

Hey, could some of you guys look at this and see if you can help me out!
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/67456-need-help-reading-ec-meter.html thanks alot all


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 22, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al, you're the man. I'm following up pretty well though. By next year, I may become a guru. LoL. I am going to borrow a friends digi cam, you have to see my wikidness. I need even more space.


hey, keep it up- and _you TOO_ may become a _*w33d b4R0n*_. 



> I can't imagine what your space looks like and I'm sure you want more.


Well, you could always look at the photos of my op I've posted throughout this thread. 

In actuality, I really DON'T want my op any bigger than it is. It's too much work as it is and makes MORE THAN plenty of dope. I mean, we're talking about 3lb/mo, Willis. 



Enigma said:


> DAMN RIGHT!
> 
> *The Law of Energy Conservation*
> 
> Energy in is energy out. It can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed.


Yeah, no one explained that to the poor sad morons who sank millions into Carl Tilley's truly fuckheaded garbage that any high-school science student could have debunked. 

If it sounds to good to be true- it IS, every _SINGLE_ motherfucking time. 



> One question: I know Windows sucks ass.. but how much more difficult is it to use Linux?
> 
> I've been wanting to build a monster mobile PC with Linux so I can access WLAN connections where they are available and keep my connection hidden.


Winblows does suck (poor security, stability- but XP *was* a giant leap forward), but Linux won't help you conceal your IP any better than any other OS. Security can be breached by you unknowingly running malware (spyware, keyloggers, Trojans)- on _*any*_ OS.

There's some GUI front ends around for Linux these days which make it as friendly to use as Winblows, but there's still not the plethora of applications available for Linux/Unix as one can find for Winblows. 



Kaosisglobal said:


> Dude the best thing is to go with Mac OSX, I use a mac at my home and you can go private right from the desktop. Everything at the click of a button. Mac OSX is based on Linux, but more user friendly. I have no exp. with Linux. Other than I had a friend who I knew that booted linux and then can chose Windows or OSX. Let me know your choice. Dude you would be surprised how far a little mac mini will go. Go to apple.com 10 reasons to buy a Mac. Might change your mind.


Macs are computers for people who don't know how to use a computer- for only twice the price of a Wintel box. Macs/Mac OS are so consumed with doing things _for _you that flexibility is lost. No thanks. I know the tech end and can make a Wintel box sit up and bark without Steve Jobs' help. 

I'm glad you like your Mac- but they are not the be-all-end-all... the sun does NOT shine out of Steve Jobs' ass. 



LoudBlunts said:


> so with that said..... a person who has been posting from the jump with no proxy.....would you recommend them to start? or no because they can just pick up where you left off?


Consider your actual risk. 

If the website you are using is being surveilled, with all traffic being recorded by a 3rd party, the observer will have correlated an IP address with your postings. That IP addy alone is fairly well useless aside from telling the observer what ISP you are logged on through. It does not itself divulge your identity nor physical address. Moreover, IP addresses change with many modes of connection. Cable modems often remain at the same IP even if the connection is cycled, but dial-ups and ADSL lines almost always change IP when logging off then on again.

If our observer is LEO and LEO thinks you're a big enough fish to fuck with, LEO can subpoena your ISP, providing the IP address and time of access. Your ISP will have to divulge the accountholder details. For that info to be worth anything in court, LEO _*then*_ has to prove that one particular person was using that particular connection when the 'illegal' communications occurred. LEO _*really *_has to jump through some hoops to make any hay out of your postings on some pisswilly pot forum. 

*MUCH* more likely is LEO attempting to entrap users of forums like this one by encouraging ppl to buy/sell prohibited materials. This means one must engage in direct contact with the buyer/seller outside of the forum. Negotiating a purchase means someone is giving away a physical address. Avoid buying or selling stuff with forum users and use PMs for direct private contacts. 

A direct email or instant messenger (MSN, ICQ, etc) connection can divulge IP information that the forum protects you from divulging. Never contact forum users via email or IM. 

If you are using Tor or a proxy, if a website is being surveilled, the observer will see communications between the IP of the last link in the Tor chain or the proxy server and the website. The observer won't be able to divine your actual IP. 

However, considering how many hoops LEO has to jump through to make any use of an IP address, it's probably over the top in most cases to proxy up. LEO will be much more likely to try to entrap ppl through getting them to buy/sell prohibited materials- and it won't matter how many layers of the onion are covering your technical tracks if you're silly enough to buy/sell illegal materials online.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 22, 2008)

Sherry said:


> I don't wanna turn that switch on man....


If you have some good stable DNA, you really do have to fuck it up to get plants to go hermie. Consistency, consistency, consistency. 



> Your plan is pure genius - hell, it's made for people like me, Al;


Thanks for that. The rotating system is very scaleable. Interesting you've found an alternate purpose for it. 



> I'd like to thank ya for replying - but I do know the risks - but if you don't take a risk you don't benefit, you don't learn anything.


No problem. However, experimentation is all well and good for experienced growers, like yourself. Noobs should find a plan that demonstrably works and copy it to the letter.

If I ever wrote a book about growing dope, it'd be more like a cookbook, with very little discussion of theory and lots of specifics on one particular style of grow. I'd nut it down to 'if you do this, you'll get that, every time' probably on a calendar layout with daily tasks, to maximise the chance of success. My intent would be to take a person from being an inveterate houseplant killer to a successful if not competent dope grower in 14-16 weeks.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 22, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If I ever wrote a book about growing dope, it'd be more like a cookbook, with very little discussion of theory and lots of specifics on one particular style of grow. I'd nut it down to 'if you do this, you'll get that, every time' probably on a calendar layout with daily tasks, to maximise the chance of success. My intent would be to take a person from being an inveterate houseplant killer to a successful if not competent dope grower in 14-16 weeks.


 
Do it.

I'd buy one.

I'd buy four, give two away.

If you feel like it though.. that would be a good way to get some campaign moolah!!!!

President Fuct!

ROFL





Enigma


----------



## daddychrisg (Apr 22, 2008)

Hey Al, have you checked out this modified flood and drain system?

Nutramist - Welcome to the new revolution in Hydroponics.

It seems from a very outside view of how the system operates, that the hybrid use of a fog/flood and drain feed would produce some rapid growth...I have know idea about the potential problems, but the benefits seem great...Any thoughts?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 22, 2008)

dcg, you simply don't need the flood if you have the aero (and vice-versa). I don't know what possessed these folks to do this. 

I would not relish doing the cleaning and periodic maintenance on this system. 

Beware anyone who tells you that they have the next big thing or any 'new revolutions.' There's nothing new in this system other than they have combined one of the simplest systems with one of the most complex and failure prone- maybe that was the point, so the flood can take over if the aero clogs... 

edit: aha. 



> The Nutramist system utilizes a solid-state, ultrasonic device to create a "dry fog" with a droplet size of less than 5 microns!


They are using a piezoelectric fogger to generate the aero mist. I've had a play with these before. Piezo foggers have a habit of collecting nute salts on their diaphragms, which eventually causes the fogger to fail. I never got a piezo fogger to last more than about 8-10 weeks before they quit.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 22, 2008)

not too many ppl on RIU talk about SWC.... im sure you have heard about it al, any insights on those designs? pros and cons.....

im not going to be building one myself, but i just like to pick your brain from time to time...... lol

for those that dont know SWC(shallow water culture) is like a hybrid of NFT and DWC.


edit- THANKS IN "ADVANCE" AL...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 22, 2008)

SWC is a good method for high root oxygenation but is still dependent upon a water or air pump, depending on how you set it up. Lots of SWC ops out there doing very well. If you have reliable AC power and use redundant air pumps/stones, it can be a good way to go.

However, it's a bit complex for new growers and may not suit SoG so well. One would be tempted to set up a large tank to support a number of plants in a common reservoir, but roots will have the abilty to knit, making plant portability impossible. Separate buckets for each plant would be very complex and a pain to maintain.


----------



## smartfood (Apr 23, 2008)

Hey Al, I'm curious about your curing time. I know your dryer has buds ready to smoke in 3-4 days, but how long do you typically cure for? Or do you get rid of them as soon as you can and leave that to someone else? Thanks!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 23, 2008)

I don't find curing necessary. I just dry 'em and smoke 'em.


----------



## high2u2 (Apr 23, 2008)

Its a nice set up man, I dont mean to hate I was actually thinking of doing something along the same line as that, but instead do two boxes one for each month that way i dont have to take clippings every two weeks and it will be twice as less work plus i can let my clones grow for a month which means twice as much yield. instead of getting a small crop every 2 weeks and do a lot of extra work, cut back on the work and get a bigger crop every month. Just my opinion.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 23, 2008)

high2u2 said:


> instead do two boxes one for each month that way i dont have to take clippings every two weeks and it will be twice as less work plus i can let my clones grow for a month which means twice as much yield. instead of getting a small crop every 2 weeks and do a lot of extra work, cut back on the work and get a bigger crop every month. Just my opinion.


If I understand you, you want to use just 2 trays, 4 weeks in each tray, giving you 4 weeks to get your clones in order. 

Where this falls down is that clones will be ready to go in to pots of media about 14 days from cutting. They don't do well just sitting under fluoros in their cubes. They tend to get a bit rootbound and sickly when kept too long in the clonebox. This alone will hurt your yield. Clones should go into media very soon after they have a good spray of roots for best performance.

If you do pot them up in media and stick them under a veg cycle HID for the 2 weeks of slack time post the clones forming a good spray of roots, they'll be excessively tall by the time they finish flowering, defeating some of the main advantages of SoG. 

This is a recurring theme- many people seem to think that it's absolutely necessary to veg clones before flowering or that it will improve the yield in a SoG op like mine. Vegging clones won't increase the yield- but it will degrade the average bud quality (size & density) because plants will finish too tall. Most folks discount the fact that cannabis plants don't switch from veg to flower mode overnight- it takes about 4 weeks in 12/12 for a clone which has always been under veg cycle lighting to fully switch from gaining vertical height to making bud mass. We rely in this remaining veg growth to bring 9" clones to 33-36" by wk 4, which is the approximate height they will be in wk 8. This perfectly suits the light pattern from a 1000HPS. If the plants are taller by the finish, the buds low on the stem will develop poorly compared to those higher up. Vegging after rooting will make them finish around 6-8" taller per week of veg.

SoG is designed to keep plants short to take best advantage of the greatest luminous intensity light pattern from the lamp, mainly within about 1.2-1.5m from a 1000. This depends upon flowering shortly after the clones have developed enough rootmass to cope with HPS lighting. So it happens, clones in RW cubes will strike in about 7-10 days and will have profuse roots in 14 days. 

Your yield won't double nor your work halve, I'm afraid. Your total yield weight will in fact be pretty similar and your manicuring work will become a lot more urgent. You'll have tall plants but with a lot of wispy lower buds, because the plant is taller than the light penetration depth. Tops will be solid, lowers will be popcorn. 

You will get more plants ready to come out at one time, but that means you have to clear one tray to put in more clones. That means you then have half of the plants in the op, ready to be manicured- RIGHT NOW. I hope you have space in your op, where you have circulation and ventilation, to store the plants waiting on harvesting. Plants ready for harvest are very susceptible to mould. If you have to keep them outside your grow room, they may go to mould rather quickly, even while you are manicuring the others. I chose the 2 week rotation mainly to break up the manicuring task into smaller bits. My first crops had all 4 trays coming ready at once- what a disaster. Lost plenty of plants to mould while they were waiting to be manicured. 

Thanks for giving it a think, but the 2 week sked will yield better avg bud size and density as well as be more manageable come harvest time.


----------



## ta2drvn (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks for all this info Al, it has given me a direction to go in. I will be trying to get two different areas set up for this, one with 6-8 plants and the other 12-18 plants. I have a veg box here is a link:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/67664-veg-box-let-me-know.html

Now I have to set up the flower box and I have a couple of Q's if you would be so kind as to point me in the right direction with it, I would be MUCHO grateful to you. My goal is to get between 2-4 oz's per plant, is this a good bar to set? (I understand it depends on plenty of variables, so let's just say that they are not IDEAL but in pretty close). With this in mind I plan to have them in the veg box until ready for flower. I plan to have one area with 6-10 plants in this cycle and the other will have 12-20. I will be growing in soil at first and may go hydro with 2nd set up, not sure yet but I already have what is needed for the soil set up now so that's how the 1st one will go for sure. 

I would like to have the area with 6-10 contained in a 3X3 tent with a 400w HPS, is this possible (at least through a harvest or two)? That is, can I get all four of these 'two week cycles' in the one tent with the one bulb? If so, I am assuming that it would be a good idea to rotate the plants so none of them are getting too much or too little of the one bulb, right? With this set up would it be a good idea to start training the lower branches to grow up making it like an orange tree rather than a x-mas tree so to speak. It looks like you are only growing a main cola, I understand you are trying to get the plant to concentrate it's energy into that area but couldn't I get a larger harvest by training the lower branches like I mention above, hight is not really a major concern for me, well up to 6' as this is the size of the tent. 

With the 2nd set up I want to basically have 2-3x the plants but ideally I'd say 18 is the magic number. For me to be able to do it under one tent, how much space would be the min needed for having 4 stations of 18 plants? I intend to use 1000w hps on this one could I 'get away' with using one at first then adding 1 per 'station' after the first couple of harvests? 

On both of these set ups, if this is just not enough space could I get 2 stations in one and have two set up like that, so I would have 1 box for mom's and clones, then two boxes/tents for flowering. 

WOW I guess I this turned into a few more Q's than I though it was, sorry. I also attached two photos to give you a visual on the veg box I have.


----------



## high2u2 (Apr 23, 2008)

I actually plan on moving the clones to bigger pots once they are about 10 days old then after 20 more days move them into flowering this way my roots are stronger and i dont have to cut any of the leaves off. They should not be to tall by then either. I have not tried either of the set ups yet and it will probably be awhile before i get around to it, but i have done a lot of research and looked at lot of diff peoples grows. What size pots do you use during flowering? I was going to use 1'x1'. I was also planning on using 2 400 watt lights for each flowering box, to give my crop a better spread of light.


----------



## high2u2 (Apr 23, 2008)

ok nevermind to that last question i just red it. i was also planning on using the hydro flood system seems to be a nice set up


----------



## insanestang4life (Apr 23, 2008)

Hey, AL how is that sulfur burner you put in a while back treating you? Also, I think the last time you talked about your yield before you put up the cooltubes you said you were gettin like an oz/plant has that gone up any in the past month or so?


----------



## kearners (Apr 23, 2008)

hey man, very impressive.. keep up the good work!!


----------



## doggiepaddel11 (Apr 23, 2008)

Al B Fuct, how long is the flowering cycle for sweet tooth? You said that your clones dont start producing bud weight until wk 3 or four. That only leaves 4 wks for the bud to get right....and normally it takes 6-8 right? or am I reading the flowering times wrong?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2008)

ta2drvn said:


> can I get all four of these 'two week cycles' in the one tent with the one bulb?


 Yep! 



> If so, I am assuming that it would be a good idea to rotate the plants so none of them are getting too much or too little of the one bulb, right?


 Yep! 



> With this set up would it be a good idea to start training the lower branches to grow up making it like an orange tree rather than a x-mas tree so to speak.


 What lower branches? Those are gone on page 1... err... in wk 1 & 3. 



> It looks like you are only growing a main cola, I understand you are trying to get the plant to concentrate it's energy into that area but couldn't I get a larger harvest by training the lower branches like I mention above, hight is not really a major concern for me, well up to 6' as this is the size of the tent.


 Man, you really need to read page 1. 

This thread is about a Sea of Green op. We deliberately grow _*short*_ plants with no side branching for a reason in SoG. The yield is made up by growing a 'sea' of small individual plants. This puts the budmass within the highest intensity part of the light pattern. To produce a good yield, SoG employs about 4 plants per sq ft. We only grow the top cola in SoG so the avg bud size and density is the best it can be. 

From just one page back in this thread:



Al B. Fuct said:


> This is a recurring theme- many people seem to think that it's absolutely necessary to veg clones before flowering or that it will improve the yield in a SoG op like mine. Vegging clones won't increase the yield- but it will degrade the average bud quality (size & density) because plants will finish too tall. Most folks discount the fact that cannabis plants don't switch from veg to flower mode overnight- it takes about 4 weeks in 12/12 for a clone which has always been under veg cycle lighting to fully switch from gaining vertical height to making bud mass. We rely in this remaining veg growth to bring 9" clones to 33-36" by wk 4, which is the approximate height they will be in wk 8. This perfectly suits the light pattern from a 1000HPS. If the plants are taller by the finish, the buds low on the stem will develop poorly compared to those higher up. Vegging after rooting will make them finish around 6-8" taller per week of veg.





insanestang4life said:


> Hey, AL how is that sulfur burner you put in a while back treating you? Also, I think the last time you talked about your yield before you put up the cooltubes you said you were gettin like an oz/plant has that gone up any in the past month or so?


I *think* the sulfur burner is doing the job. There were some plants that had a fairly nasty coating of PM when I put the 'burner' in there. I sprayed those with a lime sulfur mix, which knocks down established PM quite a lot but doesn't eliminate it. There's a little bit of dustiness reappearing on the plants that I had to spray but the ones which were babies when the 'burner' went in and had not picked up any PM yet are all still PM free. I didn't spray the babies this time, just to see if the 'burner' would work.

I stuffed up a batch of plants somewhere along the way- I think I screwed up the pH in wk 1-2 for the plants which are now in wk 6-8, causing them to 'rosette' or remain very short and have small fan leaves. This is the first batch that has had its whole life under cooltubes, but since they were damaged by non-heat related means, won't be a good example of yield with cooltubes.



doggiepaddel11 said:


> Al B Fuct, how long is the flowering cycle for sweet tooth?


8 weeks.



> You said that your clones dont start producing bud weight until wk 3 or four.


I wrote that they begin packing on bud weight in earnest after about wk 3-4. Buds start forming 5-7 days after introduction to 12/12. Same as any other op.


----------



## doggiepaddel11 (Apr 24, 2008)

Oh ok, I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm guessing that sweet tooth is a sativa, no? How big do you cut your clones?


----------



## Enigma (Apr 24, 2008)

doggiepaddel11 said:


> Oh ok, I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm guessing that sweet tooth is a sativa, no? How big do you cut your clones?


Go to page one and read.. seriously.. all these questions have been asked before.

When I came online I read for weeks before posting questions.

Cliff Notes: He likes big clones, about 9" with *thick* stems for better root production.





Enigma


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 24, 2008)

Hey Enigma typo thick stems. Ha ha, lol.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 24, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Enigma typo thick stems. Ha ha, lol.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2008)

doggiepaddel11 said:


> I'm guessing that sweet tooth is a sativa, no?


No, indica dom hybrid.



> How big do you cut your clones?


https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html



Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Enigma typo thick stems. Ha ha, lol.


Wot typo? Did you read the thread about cloning linked just above?


----------



## lawrencex34 (Apr 24, 2008)

Hey al b, This is the best thread i ever read!
Im going to do this exact setup and i have a few questions i read through the whole thread and i hope these questions havent been anwsered.

I have a 10x10ft room and Im using 4 3x3 floodtables to make kind of a square of 6x6
1-How much wattage of light do you think i should use
2-I want to use a EZ cloner to clone, but that would iliminate rockwool cubes so i was wondering whats the next best way? Can i just use the EZ cloner and when they root put them straight into hydroton rocks? Or what do you think
3-I set up all the ventaltion and filters for the room but i need a seperate area for my mothers how do i do that without blocking off ventalation but not letting light go through? Like if i use panda film that would block off the ventalation. ANy sugestions?

THANKS AL B!


----------



## lush1 (Apr 24, 2008)

Alright Al. what do you reckon to using 25 x 180mm square 6 litre pots on a 3ft x 3ft table? I think the pots would give good room for root growth but at 6 litres per pot thats a hell of alot of medium/water.

Was wondering if more volume on a pot on this sort of op would be a hinderence rather than an advantage.

Cheers mate.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2008)

lawrencex34 said:


> Hey al b, This is the best thread i ever read!


Thanks. 



> Im going to do this exact setup and i have a few questions i read through the whole thread and i hope these questions havent been anwsered.


These have all been covered at least once, some several times.

Admittedly, this thread is now too long to be a handy reference, but if you did go through the whole thing, all your questions would be answered. I'll cover them again for your convenience.



> I have a 10x10ft room and Im using 4 3x3 floodtables to make kind of a square of 6x6
> 
> 1-How much wattage of light do you think i should use


HPS lighting works well for flowering at 50W/sq ft or better. 

Horizontal tube light fixtures/reflectors (preferably double parabola or 'batwing' type) lay down a rectangular light pattern. Put your tables in pairs and use one 1000HPS over each pair. 



> 2-I want to use a EZ cloner to clone, but that would iliminate rockwool cubes so i was wondering whats the next best way? Can i just use the EZ cloner and when they root put them straight into hydroton rocks? Or what do you think


You could use the 'ez cloner' (wotever that is, presuming an aerocloner of some flavour, I don't know every brand name for such things), but it's very easy to damage roots when they are not contained in some sort of medium. Cloning in RW cubes protects the roots and mechanically stabilises the clone when it is planted into your choice of media.



> 3-I set up all the ventaltion and filters for the room but i need a seperate area for my mothers how do i do that without blocking off ventalation but not letting light go through? Like if i use panda film that would block off the ventalation. ANy sugestions?


yep - see here.



lush1 said:


> Alright Al. what do you reckon to using 25 x 180mm square 6 litre pots on a 3ft x 3ft table? I think the pots would give good room for root growth but at 6 litres per pot thats a hell of alot of medium/water.
> 
> Was wondering if more volume on a pot on this sort of op would be a hinderence rather than an advantage.


You can get away with really rather small pots of absorbent media so you can jam in more plants. I don't think I'd use pots much smaller than about 1L in volume, though. Keep in mind that the smaller the volume of media per plant, the shorter the amt of failsafe time where the plant can survive in the event of a pump/timer failure. 

You're right, though- bigger isn't always better. The plant will take a certain amt of time to suck up the water stored in the media (depending on the size of the plant). The ideal arrangement is to use no more media than required to support the water needs of the plant through about 24 hours as most of the dissolved O2 will dissipate in that time. If there's so much water capacity that the plant can't take up all the water before the dissolved O2 is gone, they won't grow as quickly as they could with smaller amts of media per plant, which get flooded more frequently with freshly and fully oxygenated nute soln. 

Plants in non-absorbent media like pellets or lava rock can be flooded 3-4x daily. The 1 litre minimum size is still a good idea so there's enough room for roots.


----------



## lawrencex34 (Apr 24, 2008)

Thanks Al b! 
Im sorry but can you explain your thread on how to ventalate the mothers a little differnt? This is my first grow and i don't really understand what you mean. Thankss!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2008)

lawrencex34 said:


> Thanks Al b!
> Im sorry but can you explain your thread on how to ventalate the mothers a little differnt? This is my first grow and i don't really understand what you mean. Thankss!


Could you be a bit more specific? What don't you understand?


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Could you be a bit more specific? What don't you understand?


hes was talking about how to ventalate the mothers a little differnt!!! duhhh... i guess that EE degree didnt do you much good now did it? 

lmao, im so joking.... it is very funny how someone could expect an answer from such a vague question.... sometimes noobs dont know their ass from their elbow(it happens to all of us at one point) and dont know how to ask their question because they are so lost


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2008)

Well, I _try_ not to bite the newbs, WeT. You should try too. 

On the other hand, someone who _should_ be experienced but still comes up with nutball stuff is fair game for a bit of teasing.


----------



## lawrencex34 (Apr 24, 2008)

Sorry, Ok let me try to ask this more specificaly.

Lets say i use panda film to seperate the mother area, Id have to seal off the area so no light leaks to my flowering plants. But then no ventalation would get to the mothers. 
So if i use duct do i just cut a circle into the panda film? 
And I use a blower with the duct?
Also i dont understand how to make the light trap out of cardboard

Sorry if these seem like dumb questions but im this is my first grow. THanks everyone


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, I _try_ not to bite the newbs, WeT. You should try too.


 i did cite how it happens to all of us at one point ...if someone has a vague question i shoot them over to GROWFAQ because i know they will have a plethora of questions answered there.... 



Al B. Fuct said:


> On the other hand, someone who _should_ be experienced but still comes up with *nutball *stuff is fair game for a bit of teasing.


i know your not referring to my beliefs that 911 was an inside job and the fact that i think we might be able to harvest "free" energy with the implementation of magnets!!! i have lots of resources that support my conclustion of 911, and my opinions are not contingent upon a whim of one vid that i have seen. as far as the free energy thing goes, i think it is highly possible that there are ways to harvest "free" energy but the billionaires that control the energy/oil monopoly wont let this happen readily


lmao, im not going to argue about it with you because your more articulate than me and could beat me in a debate.. thats why i simply asked what your opinions are on the subjects

edit- i love you al B, you give me my twinkle in my eye  


.


----------



## ta2drvn (Apr 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Man, you really need to read page 1.
> 
> This thread is about a Sea of Green op. We deliberately grow _*short*_ plants with no side branching for a reason in SoG. The yield is made up by growing a 'sea' of small individual plants. This puts the budmass within the highest intensity part of the light pattern. To produce a good yield, SoG employs about 4 plants per sq ft. We only grow the top cola in SoG so the avg bud size and density is the best it can be.


I read probably first 5-6 pages before I started skimming, I did try to read as much as possible when I saw your posts on pages. I have read this back and forth with some other threads also, sorry if it was answered somewhere else, you seem to have been really good about answering Q's and I understand you must get sick of having to explain over and over again the concept of SOG. I understand you are doing this with a SoG I was thinking of doing this with a SCROG:

GROWFAQ

I am not dead set on it, as I have just started some clones that I am planning on turning into mother's so I won't be ready for the flowering for at least a month. So let me know if I am looking at this wrong and going to run into a problem. 

The reason I thought this would be a better plan for me, was that I don't want to have large 'numbers' of plants. I am OK with lots of smaller buds and bushiness and even OK with larger plants. My reason for this is that I am a med patient in Cali and state law is mostly interpreted as allowing for 6 adult and 12 young un's plants, per patient. I can also grow the same for a couple of other patients I am friends with, starting to get my reasoning now?

It is just an idea I had to give me just a little peace of mind, you know? I don't want to ever get over 100 plants cause it just always seems that the raids the DEA do are on grows over 100 plants and they don't care or understand 'adult' plants they just see numbers, not to mention I want to keep this containable in less than a 10X10 area and I want to TRY to fit this in a 3X3 for 6-8 plants per station. See if I get the set up like you have as a SOG and have 6-8 moms, 30 cut's, 20 per flowering station (that's 80), you are over the 100 mark to get 1-2 lbs every two weeks, isn't that about right? See, if I keep each station under 18ish plants flowering I am under the 100 mark and and can keep within CA State Law with just 2 other patients 'technically' but I'll have 11 just in case so it stays within the 6 adults per. 

Sorry to be a pest, I know I probably should have just posted all this up in it's own post, but honestly, you seem to have this down pretty good and seem to be one of the more experienced members and figured maybe I could steal a little advice.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 24, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> i know your not referring to my beliefs that 911 was an inside job and the fact that i think we might be able to harvest "free" energy with the implementation of magnets!!! i have lots of resources that support my conclustion of 911, and my opinions are not contingent upon a whim of one vid that i have seen. as far as the free energy thing goes, i think it is highly possible that there are ways to harvest "free" energy but the billionaires that control the energy/oil monopoly wont let this happen readily


 
I met a guy today that used a *water powered suppliment* to his 4 cyl pick-em-up-truck that is *fuel injected*.. it added, from his estimation, *40 miles per gallon*.

He and I are working on a *FULLY* hydro-powered engine. Starting small with a *250cc bike* and moving up to a *V8*.

*This will most certainly be FREE information given to this community.*


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 24, 2008)

Enigma said:


> *This will most certainly be FREE information given to this community.*



nice please share 
i would love to help build your hybrid car with you guys, seems like a lot of fun 

i was thinking about starting a thread on this myself, check out some ways to get your existing car to run off of water!!!

YouTube - HHO in CAR

YouTube - METALPRESSTV - USE WATER FOR FUEL- PART 3

YouTube - Re: hydrogen fuel cell

YouTube - Water Powered Car or Truck - NO GASOLINE NEEDED!

YouTube - This Car runs on Water!

YouTube - Fuel from Water H2O

sorry for the hijack al


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2008)

Cannaporn of the day:



Gratuitous shot of a couple oz of bud & 2g of finger hash. 

Having a day off, c u all soon.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> sorry for the hijack al


No you're not!

Seriously, if you think this is possible, can I just give you an address to send all your money to? I promise I'll use it for drugs. At least your money will go to something useful, like keeping me whacked out of my gourd.

Perpetual motion and free energy don't work, simple as that. Laws of conservation of energy will see to it you are separated from your money- you don't have to listen to me.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 24, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No you're not!


 a guy cant be polite? lmao, than you smack me in my face for it



Al B. Fuct said:


> Seriously, if you think this is possible, can I just give you an address to send all your money to? I promise I'll use it for drugs. At least your money will go to something useful, like keeping me whacked out of my gourd.


 only if you use my money exclusivly for drugs



Al B. Fuct said:


> Perpetual motion and free energy don't work, simple as that. Laws of conservation of energy will see to it you are separated from your money- you don't have to listen to me.


im not trying to debunk the "law of conservation of energy", no way... what i am saying is that i do believe there are ways of working with it to produce more output power than input power. 

look at e=mc^2 for an example, prior to Al Einstein, it was inconceivable for a notion that you could you harvest SOOOO MUCH ENERGY from the minuscule mass of "input"..... quote from the late man himself
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."


----------



## Enigma (Apr 24, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> nice please share
> i would love to help build your hybrid car with you guys, seems like a lot of fun
> 
> i was thinking about starting a thread on this myself, check out some ways to get your existing car to run off of water!!!
> ...


 
That has been immensely helpful!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 25, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> im not trying to debunk the "law of conservation of energy", no way... what i am saying is that i do believe there are ways of working with it to produce more output power than input power.


If you believe that there is a way to get more output than input, you ARE trying to debunk the law of conservation of energy. That's what it's all about. Goezout (Gt) = (Goezin (Gn) less resistance/friction/other loss). Absent magic or snake oil, Gt can never even equal Gn, much less exceed it.

Now, can we take this silliness elsewhere?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 25, 2008)

lawrencex34 said:


> Sorry, Ok let me try to ask this more specificaly.
> 
> Lets say i use panda film to seperate the mother area, Id have to seal off the area so no light leaks to my flowering plants. But then no ventalation would get to the mothers.
> So if i use duct do i just cut a circle into the panda film?
> And I use a blower with the duct?


Yep, yep and yep.




> Also i dont understand how to make the light trap out of cardboard


The diagram in the post I cited shows something of an x-ray view of the side of a light trap. It is a common cardboard box, inside painted flat black, with a couple of baffles, also made from cardboard, also painted flat black and fixed in place with hot glue. The box is taped up and ducts fitted appropriately- if at all. If your mum area is within your flowering area, omit the ducts, just make 2 light traps. Fit one at ceiling level with a blower to pull warm air out of mumland and put it in the flowerzone. Another at floor level as a passive intake from the flowerzone. The exhaust and filtration you have set up for the flowerzone will deal with the air circulated through mumland.

The idea is to give a serpentine path for air but provide no straight line for light to pass through. Painting the innards flat black reduces light reflecting 'around the corners.'


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 25, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you believe that there is a way to get more output than input, you ARE trying to debunk the law of conservation of energy. That's what it's all about.
> 
> Now, can we take this silliness elsewhere?


ok, i didnt word that right... look at piezoelectricity for example.. what if we placed many of these (in series and parallel) into the depths of the ocean or far beneath the earth(somewhere there is high uniform natural pressures)? would that not be another source of "free" energy? btw i dont know much abut the piezoelectricity except that when you apply a pressure you will get a volage. 

all im saying is that i think with the aid magnets that we can put in minimal input work and harvest more output.. 

heres an example of how set of magnets would produce constant "free" work/voltage- simply put that piezoelectric device between these two magnets and the device will constantly produce an output as long as the magnets are in good working order...

i am no scientist, just a simpleton pondering some intriguing notions. it is my personal belief that magnets would enable us this "free" energy! it would be the catalyst if you will......

magnets always produce a force, why not use this to our advantage? you dont need to apply any energy to get a permanent magnet to have this force!!!


let the force be with you!!!
YouTube - Let the Force Be With You

a little vid i made for my friend al b fuct.......... lol jk

end of discussion for me... sorry to hijack. g'day mate


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 25, 2008)

If you start a thread about this, the next time I'm so bored as to be tempted to gnaw off a leg, I'll give you chapter and verse of why what you suggest won't work and where the losses are. 



> end of discussion for me...


Thanks for that. This thread has had a pretty good run because ppl come here to find out about SoG ops, not how to waste money on *not getting me high. *


----------



## bigal10 (Apr 25, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you start a thread about this, the next time I'm so bored as to be tempted to gnaw off a leg, I'll give you chapter and verse of why what you suggest won't work and where the losses are.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that. This thread has had a pretty good run because ppl come here to find out about SoG ops, not how to waste money on *not getting me high. *


nice zips! Yes I do agree lets get back to the focus of this thread the *SOG* op.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 25, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> let the force be with you!!!
> YouTube - Let the Force Be With You


 
You are Tarded!


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 25, 2008)

Enigma said:


> You are Tarded!


you guys didnt get a laugh from that? i guess i have failed at life... where my gun? good bye cruel world

way to jack al's thread enigma.... SOG damn it, SOG... this is not pertinent


----------



## lawrencex34 (Apr 25, 2008)

Ok I understand now THANKS AL B!

I was browing around and came across this this link about SOG, Almost like your setup except he just has one big harvest. Do you see anything wrong with what hes doing like his nutes n stuff. Thanks

Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 25, 2008)

lawrencex34 said:


> Ok I understand now THANKS AL B!
> 
> I was browing around and came across this this link about SOG, Almost like your setup except he just has one big harvest. Do you see anything wrong with what hes doing like his nutes n stuff. Thanks
> 
> Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos


Hey I will answer for Al.

Al told you I'm getting good.

This is not a continuous op, atleast not to Al's scale. He will not harvest every 2 weeks, but every 60 days, though it is still Sog. It lacks the tight flow that Al has laid down for us. Al what about some pictures of your floods since I saved you a response.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 25, 2008)

lawrencex34 said:


> Ok I understand now THANKS AL B!
> 
> I was browing around and came across this this link about SOG, Almost like your setup except he just has one big harvest. Do you see anything wrong with what hes doing like his nutes n stuff. Thanks
> 
> Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos


You're right - what's happening in that op is very similar to mine, differing as you note on my staggering of the crops to provide a harvest every 2 weeks. Also, I run my plants in pots so I can pick up and move plants for evening out growth, etc.

Can't really comment on this grower's use of nutes- I've never used GH nutes and use the ppm scale instead of EC. His comment that H2O2 interacts with GH nutes surprises me as their nutes are normally 'chemical' type instead of organic based. Says that H2O2 should be added to plain water before adding to nutrients. I usually fill my 125L tanks halfway and then add H2O2 and nute concentrates, so each item I add is diluted quite a lot before I add the next. 

He's also flooding plants in 4" RW cubes SIX times per lights on, which is more than I would have started with. He's cloning in 1" cubes then nesting them in the 4" cubes. He specifies that the clones should have a good set of roots before introducing them to the 4" cubes. I reckon this schedule works because the plants are developed enough on introduction to use a large proportion of the water stored in the cubes. I might have started by flooding young plants 1-2x per lights-on then increased that as the plants develop. What this fella's doing obviously works OK, though. 

The one-big-harvest arrangement has got problems for a one-man op. When plants are not in separate containers, roots will knit with those of neighbouring plants. Come harvest time, the plants will have to be cut off at the stem then manicured immediately. The rootballs won't be individually removable without damaging the neighbouring plants, so each stalk will have to come out and be harvested, then all the cubes and rootmasses removed from the trays before the next batch can go in. There's no way to move the finished plants out of the tray and sit them on the floor (for example) so that the following batch can go in while the batch to be harvested gets out of the way of progress. 

If you use a fast manicuring method (like the Aardvark trimmer), this all-at-once arrangement is somewhat more manageable, but fast manicuring methods leave too much bud leaf on the plants for my (and my clients') liking. However, me _*and*_ my clients may have to get over the leaf remnants in the near future. I have some physical limitations which are causing me to have great difficulty doing the bud leaf-by-bud leaf manicuring style- I'm probably going to drop the fat cash on an Aardvark soon. 

I (obviously) very much like the cited grower's lights- they're identical to mine, with batwings over cooltubes. This arrangement is as good as they get.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 25, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Al what about some pictures of your floods since I saved you a response.


Kaos, while I do appreciate your help, your replies are not *quite* the same as mine just yet. 

I've just put up some pix recently- things really haven't changed appreciably since then. That's the thing about continuous harvest ops in 2-week rotation; you always have plants in a certain 2-week band in each tray, so the appearance of the op doesn't change much from week to week.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 25, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Kaos, while I do appreciate your help, your replies are not *quite* the same as mine just yet.
> 
> I've just put up some pix recently- things really haven't changed appreciably since then. That's the thing about continuous harvest ops in 2-week rotation; you always have plants in a certain 2-week band in each tray, so the appearance of the op doesn't change much from week to week.


I know Al, I have long ways to go. You would be happy when you see my grow. ( I need a digi cam) My first three girls from round one are between 3-4' Way to big, but my WW at 6 weeks 3'10" and LSTed (imagine the look on her, she would have been 4'6" atleast if it wasn't for LSTing) is filling in quite nicely. I just started keeping a paper journal last night, so I will hopefully be a lot more organized. I need to label all my pots as well and then I will have another step done towards organization. Though I know I veged way to long for my big plants, I have 10 clones now. 5 soil, 5 hydro. The one that I mentioned a while ago at 6-7" showing hairs is now 14" with nice shoots. I am hoping to keep height down on my second round. Though as of right now, I will already have a great stagger, as all of them have started flowering on different dates. Widow going for 6 weeks, Ice only going for 2. As soon as I put Ice in the closet and brought up the amb. temps. She flowered in 24 hrs. My mystery plant a few days- to a week after. Widow was so hardy, flowering even when amb. temp sat closer to 60 than 70. I have perfect temps now, I just need to lower my humidity. I have no ventilation system as off now. Just a Rubbermaid Utility Storage Closet, that I keep the door cracked on. What are your views on soil? Out of my 5 in soil, rooted in 12/12. I have 1 that looks great, 1 that looks like shit (may die) and 4 that are not great, but looks like they will all make it. Can you send me a link to where you describe your tables more. In the future I will be duplicating your grow. I first need to put together some money after these few rounds I maybe straight. Then I am going to be moving and looking to go from closet to room. 10 sq ft??? How much dedicated space do you think? What do you think of DWC buckets??? My biggest problem with DWC is the D and the fact that tanks reduce a foot of height in grow space. How tall is your flood tank with res together? Talk to you soon.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 25, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> I have no ventilation system as off now. Just a Rubbermaid Utility Storage Closet, that I keep the door cracked on.


eek. Fix that. Add a thermostat for air temp when you put in an exhaust fan. Your temps may be OK one day but not the next depending upon ambient temp if you don't control your air temp with a thermostat.



> What are your views on soil?


Mostly sand and bullshit. 

Obviously, one can grow plants in soil (!) but hydroponics has some big advantages. It adds flexibility in changing nutes abruptly, as we do in raising cannabis when changing from veg to flower. Feeding with a recirculating water based solution allows one to oxygenate the solution and thus the plants' roots much more than occurs in soil. Dissolved oxygen to the roots has a direct relationship to vigor and final yield. 



> Can you send me a link to where you describe your tables more.


Not really- they're not that complex, just 820mm^2 trays on square tubing stands, above the res tanks. What specifically do you need to know?



> 10 sq ft??? How much dedicated space do you think?


Depends upon how much light you want to run and how much work you want to do. If you're only supplying your own smoking needs, you might be able to do that with 4 sq ft, 4 plants per sf and a single 400HPS. 



> What do you think of DWC buckets???


Great stuff due to high levels of root oxygenation, not so practical in SoG due to the high plant counts used. Gets mechanically complex with individual buckets when you have a lot of plants. When a common aerated res is used to beat that problem, roots from neighbouring plants will knit and stop plants from being portable within the op. DWC is deceptively simple. It is not for beginners. 

DWC is highly dependent on constant aeration of the nute soln. An aeration failure lasting more than a few hours can be disastrous. Without an air supply, roots will drown, killing the plant (or all of them).

Air supplies in DWC should be doubled for redundancy- 2 separate air pumps and 2 bubble curtains per bucket on separate air circuits. Air pumps do fail periodically and bubble curtains clog with nute salts.

Mains AC power failures lasting more than about 6-8 hours are DWC growers' biggest threat. If you lose power often, DWC may not be the way forward for you, unless you find some means of emergency power supply to your air pumps. Uninterruptible power supplies (UPSs) for home computers can be used for AC power backup. Cheap UPSs have rather small batteries, but they are usually 12V, meaning a 12V car battery or preferably a 12V deep-cycle marine battery can be directly substituted for the smaller 12V battery that came with the UPS, giving many hours (or even days, depending upon battery capacity) of AC power backup.



> How tall is your flood tank with res together?


About 700mm (~2.5ft). This could be a lot lower if I used broader, shorter storage tubs (say, those intended for underbed storage) as reservoir tanks.


----------



## smartfood (Apr 25, 2008)

Hey Al, how many CFM's do you have going through your bud dryer? The reason I ask is that I just built one, but am pulling through a carbon filter (much like the ones on Ebay, but homemade for much less) but the fan is only 97cfm (before pulling through the carbon filter), it's probably more like 30 cfm now. I really don't want to mold out a batch just to test it out. Really doesn't feel like it's pulling much air and that worries me... Thanks!


----------



## potroast (Apr 26, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Cannaporn of the day:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Man! Those ounces look light. 


I can spot that from all the way up here.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 26, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hey Al, how many CFM's do you have going through your bud dryer? The reason I ask is that I just built one, but am pulling through a carbon filter (much like the ones on Ebay, but homemade for much less) but the fan is only 97cfm (before pulling through the carbon filter), it's probably more like 30 cfm now. I really don't want to mold out a batch just to test it out. Really doesn't feel like it's pulling much air and that worries me... Thanks!


She'll be right, you don't need a wind tunnel for your buds. 30CFM will do OK. 10CFM would work! I've installed a motor speed controller on mine to slow my fans down. Too noisy, no need for massive airflow if the heater is doing its thing, dropping RH a bit to make the air run thru the box able to pick up more water.

Your carbon filter might not like the moisture from the buds. Might prematurely reduce its effectiveness. Check often. 

Ever baked old carbon granules to reactivate it? Did it work?



potroast said:


> Hey Man! Those ounces look light.
> 
> 
> I can spot that from all the way up here.


dude, a bushel of boulders always weighs more than 100 pecks of popcorn. 

Density, density, density! Those are 30g 'ounces.' I also give the hash away as sort of a clever 'prize in every package!' marketing scheme. 

I know you're having me on, but you've given me an oppty to sing the praises of SoG again- all top colas, all the time.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 26, 2008)

So what is it your trying to say, that by only growing the top colas you get better bud or something. VV


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 26, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Soon as the con artist... err... fuckknuckle... err... 'inventor' behind this one rewrites the rules of physics, it'll solve _*lots*_ of problems.
> There's no such thing as 'free energy' because you can't get more energy out of a system than you put in it. There's... um... no such thing as a free lunch.
> 
> 
> 'Free energy' is a tax on people stupid enough to believe in conspiracies and lazy enough not to understand basic science.



more damn con artists.....errr fuckknuckles... errr... 
YouTube - Electromagnetic Over Unity Power Plant

"There's no such thing as 'free energy' because you can't get more energy out of a system than you put in it. There's... um... no such thing as a free lunch." 

im really dissapointed in these assholes that put false information on the internet...


.........................................................i told you so....................................


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 26, 2008)

Look at the lip on that smiley after I told you so, Ha ha


----------



## LoudBlunts (Apr 26, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> So what is it your trying to say, that by only growing the top colas you get better bud or something. VV


all the bud will be good regardless.


but the best fruit and such comes from the main stalk. who wants b + bud when you can have the a + mainstalk?


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 26, 2008)

Kaosisglobal said:


> Look at the lip on that smiley after I told you so, Ha ha


you type ":lo l:" together with no spaces  or you can click more faces and add it that way


----------



## Kuji (Apr 26, 2008)

Hey Al, is that finger hash one harvest worth of buds and work?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 26, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> So what is it your trying to say, that by only growing the top colas you get better bud or something. VV


 Well, it's just a hypothesis at this point. I'll put another 8 years into the research and get back with you. Fack, where'd I leave my bong? 



We TaRdED said:


> im really dissapointed in these assholes that put false information on the internet...
> 
> 
> .........................................................i told you so....................................


 Yeah- if it's on the INTARWEBS you _*KNOW *_it's true- so I can understand your dismay. 

Did you hear that the word 'gullible' isn't in the dictionary?

I don't know what you _*think*_ you've 'told me so' about nor do I particularly care. 

BTW, I haven't wasted any of my monthly 60Gb data allowance on your linked YouTube fraud- I have DAYS worth of Hello Kitty videos to download first while I still have some bytes left. You _*don't*_ want to be around me when I haven't gotten my HK fix, man...

WeT- I've asked you REASONABLY nicely to take your ridiculous snake oil off this thread. One more snake oil stain on this topic and you're on my ignore list. K?



Kuji said:


> Hey Al, is that finger hash one harvest worth of buds and work?


Nah, I get about one or two of those rat-turd looking things (about .25g) off each plant when manicuring. I really don't know for sure how much I get, to be honest- I have this really bad habit of smoking the finger hash during breaks in harvesting, so they're a _*bit*_ hard to keep track of...


----------



## DaveM (Apr 27, 2008)

Hello Al, came back for another read, better than any newspsper 
Also have a question I think you may be able to answer for me.
I grow in a space 48 ins x 48 ins x 84 ins and would like to know what size and from what material I should make my reflector from. I use a 600 watt lamp.
I have a blacksmith friend who can do the making of it.
Or is there a current reflector on the market you would recommend.

Thanks
Dave


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 27, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Hello Al, came back for another read, better than any newspsper
> Also have a question I think you may be able to answer for me.
> I grow in a space 48 ins x 48 ins x 84 ins and would like to know what size and from what material I should make my reflector from. I use a 600 watt lamp.
> I have a blacksmith friend who can do the making of it.
> Or is there a current reflector on the market you would recommend.


Accent Hydroponics' Adjust-A-Wings are as good as they get if you want to buy one. The double parabola or 'batwing' is the most efficient shape for a reflector as all light leaving the lamp gets reflected toward the plants, not back to the lamp tube as happens with single parabola or 'Euro hood' type shades.

Here's some more of my awful kindergarten art:







You can make your own, of course. See the link in my sig to DIY batwing reflector. You can use either steel or aluminium. It's as simple as marking the centreline of a rectangular piece of aluminum sheet, rolling it up, partly unrolling it, clamping the sheet to your workbench and bending a 90 on the centreline. Use open-link chain to pull the far ends of the batwing toward each other. Lengthening or shortening the chains alters the focus of the reflector.

A batwing ref coupled with a cooltube is the very best light fixture for any op. 

The size of your batwing ref isn't terribly critical, but bigger is better, up to a certain point. For a 48" square grow space, I might use a sheet of aluminium around 36" x 72". I'll go into the op later on and measure my 'large Avenger' Adjust-a-Wings (soon as my brain is fully marinated in coffee  ).

Naturally, horizontal tube reflectors will lay down a mainly rectangular light pattern. You should organise your lighted grow space to be rectangular to take best advantage of the rectangular light pattern.


----------



## DaveM (Apr 27, 2008)

Much appreciated Al, I did read your post on the batwing prior to posting. I have several shades at my disposal but needed reassurance as toi how large they should be, will check back when your brain has been marinated and await the measurements of your largest reflector cause this quote seems wrong 

"For a 48" square grow space, I might use a sheet of aluminium around 36" x 72"."

72" won't fit


----------



## DaveM (Apr 27, 2008)

Silly me....... must think before I type 
The 72" will be far shorter when curved 

Ok Al understand now  my blacksmith friend should be able to make an exact replica of an adjustawing, don't you think?? if you think that the manufactured one cannot be copied to give the exact output I would save me pennies and buy one 
Blacksmith friend says any chance of exact sizes as to copy from 
This is my current shade.





I am gonna be a pest now and ask another question  what do you think about the "heat shield" that is available for the adjustawing 
Oh and any idea what the material is on the adjustawing...... I will probably end up buying one, I just know I will.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 27, 2008)

Hey Al,

First of all, I admire your work, and you've inspired me to replicate your grow in my own home. Now I have a couple of questions...


Do you have separate nutrients and separate ppm's for each rez? Or are they all relatively identical?

Also, with so many plants cramped into such a small area, how do you access all of your plants? And do you find the batwing reflector to be more efficient than say a Hydrofarm air cooled reflector?


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 27, 2008)

he runs 1400 ppm in all 4 tanks, he has them in individual pots so he can move them about, and he just got done saying the batwing is the most efficient reflector along with a diagram as to why...


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 27, 2008)

Yeah, I am retarted and missed that post. Just noticed that after I asked.

But that still leaves the question of plant access...


----------



## Enigma (Apr 27, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Yeah, I am retarted and missed that post. Just noticed that after I asked.
> 
> But that still leaves the question of plant access...


 
He uses individual pots to move them around for even lighting and pruning.

He does have a much bigger space than you.. be creative, and careful.





Enigma


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 27, 2008)

Well me and a few local Med growers are setting up a grow at my friend's house and I'm the grow foreman.

We have a giant garage that is completely available to grow in and I am going to construct a freestanding room with adjacent freestanding mother and clone rooms, roughly based off of Al's design.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 28, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Blacksmith friend says any chance of exact sizes as to copy from


Yep, the AAWs are each made from 2 panels, 700mm along tube axis, 600mm from the centre bend to the edges. A single sheet, 700mm x 1200mm could be used. 

You can duplicate the size and shape of the AAW but you won't be as able to replicate the reflector surface, which is highly polished then dimpled with a .5mm round nosed punch, about 20 dimples per cm^2. Home made batwings should be painted flat white with a hi-temp enamel spray. 



> I am gonna be a pest now and ask another question  what do you think about the "heat shield" that is available for the adjustawing


Good if you're not using cooltubes- but heaven only knows why you wouldn't be using cooltubes! The 'super spreader' is more of a 'super shade.' It allows you to drop the light lower without damaging plants nearest the lamp.



> Oh and any idea what the material is on the adjustawing...... I will probably end up buying one, I just know I will.


It's aluminium, apx 1mm thick.

The AAWs are not cheap but are very well made, with pressed pem nuts that stay put and all stainless and aluminium hardware. Worth buying, IMO.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 28, 2008)

MW, cmak & Enigma have filled in your blanks correctly. Thanks, fellers. 

Plants in pots are portable. There's 4 separate 125L tanks, all Canna Flores 1400ppm @ 5.8, H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L every 3-4 days.


----------



## doggiepaddel11 (Apr 28, 2008)

If I am using a drip system, do I have to worry about root rot? Has it ever been a problem for you? 
My plants are about 4 to 5 inches tall and the leaves are starting to droop down and have a light green color coming on. Some leaves are starting to fold upward like a taco. What should I do? I read some where that it could be root rot but I wanted to ask a Pro. Isn't Canna a soil specific nutrient solution?


----------



## DaveM (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanks for the answers Al, much appreciated.
Funnily enough I bought a cooltube a good few years back and stupidly thought a normal 4inch inline fan would be powerful enough to draw the heat from around the bulb. I noticed a bronzing on the shade after about 2 hours use and got paranoid so removed it and went back to normal shade. Oh if I only knew then what I know now.
Anyhow, I have every intention to purchase one of the AAW'S asap.
Thanks again.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 28, 2008)

I swear I remember seeing a DIY article on how to attach a DIY batwing reflector to a cooltube.

Can anyone point me to that?


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 28, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> I swear I remember seeing a DIY article on how to attach a DIY batwing reflector to a cooltube.
> 
> Can anyone point me to that?


i dunno bout the diy but i rigged my own batwing reflector to my cool tubes and was rathger easy. ill try and post a pic in my gallery later tonite.

HEY AL. B FUCT, sorry bout the caps wanted you to see this lol. i have to admit that your way of cloning is the BEST. i admit i tried the old keep the 99%humidity and wet all the time and my clones all burnt up and turned yellow, i started foloowing your method with those clones and also cut more to your way and the new cuts caught up to the old ones in root size. THANK YOU very much. that cloning method is the SHIT hands down


----------



## Kuji (Apr 28, 2008)

Al, this question is a tad off topic but I figure you're in the prefect position to answer it. 

How much weed does it take you to get high?

The reason I ask is cuz you have a large, steady supply of quality weed and from what I've read, smoke quite a bit of it. The reason I ask is becuase I see these medicinal grow videos where these guys have 40plant+ gardens and it's ALL PERSONAL. This one guy said he'd have 4ozs off each plant w/ 47 plants and that was BARELY enough "medicine" to last him four months. I don't see how these MM patients go through so much weed.


----------



## Mrgrow626 (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey al B 
Sorry for all the questions but i just love the way you grow =)

Do you think Master Kush would be a good strain for this type of grow?


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey Al what do you think of The Hempy Collective? I am sure you are familiar with the Hempy buckets. I am a little interested in them now, especially for low budget and ease of use. As of right now, those are the pros that I am looking at. I heard of root rot as a con, but all the users say not true. You are my go to guy, what do you think??


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, the AAWs are each made from 2 panels, 700mm along tube axis, 600mm from the centre bend to the edges. A single sheet, 700mm x 1200mm could be used.
> 
> You can duplicate the size and shape of the AAW but you won't be as able to replicate the reflector surface, which is highly polished then dimpled with a .5mm round nosed punch, about 20 dimples per cm^2. Home made batwings should be painted flat white with a hi-temp enamel spray.
> 
> ...


 
Get a sheet of aluminum.. some clamps.. something round to form it to.. and some mylar. Make the 90 degree bends first.. I think it would be easier that way.. Al?





Enigma


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> I swear I remember seeing a DIY article on how to attach a DIY batwing reflector to a cooltube.
> 
> Can anyone point me to that?


 
Check my sig!!!

I <3 DIY





Enigma


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 28, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Check my sig!!!
> 
> I <3 DIY
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link, but I was actually referring to a DIY on how to attach a batwing to a cooltube. I googled it and found something but it required welding, of which I have no experience, not to mention I don't have a torch.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 28, 2008)

doggiepaddel11 said:


> If I am using a drip system, do I have to worry about root rot? Has it ever been a problem for you?


Depends on your media. If you try to drip feed an absorbent medium like rockwool, yes- you're asking for trouble. Never been a problem for me as I've never tried to drip feed RW. I have run drip feed on plants in pots of clay pellets some years ago. I abandoned drip feeds because of the tendency for drippers to clog with nute salts. Any advantage the method has is lost when a plant dies from a clogged dripper.



> My plants are about 4 to 5 inches tall and the leaves are starting to droop down and have a light green color coming on. Some leaves are starting to fold upward like a taco. What should I do? I read some where that it could be root rot but I wanted to ask a Pro.


If you can get a look at the roots, your answer will be plain. If the roots are brown, you have root rot. I don't know what your media is and so can't comment any further.



> Isn't Canna a soil specific nutrient solution?


Canna are mainly engaged in selling hydro nutes, but they do sell a soil-specific nutrient at present (but only outside of Australia) called 'Canna Terra'. If using soil, that's the stuff. Terra deliberately does not have some micronutrients which will be found in any good potting soil. Canna Terra thus isn't suitable for inert media. 

For many years, all Canna sold was a hydroponic nutrient, intended for use with inert media like RW floc or pellets. That particular goo is now called "Canna Substra," and to my knowledge, it's now only available in Australia. It does include micronutes which don't exist in inert media.

They also sell a nutrient designed for coconut coir (Canna Coco) and another called "Canna Aqua" (outside of Aus) which I believe is suited for any recirculating hydro system with inert media.



DaveM said:


> Thanks for the answers Al, much appreciated.
> Funnily enough I bought a cooltube a good few years back and stupidly thought a normal 4inch inline fan would be powerful enough to draw the heat from around the bulb. I noticed a bronzing on the shade after about 2 hours use and got paranoid so removed it and went back to normal shade. Oh if I only knew then what I know now.
> Anyhow, I have every intention to purchase one of the AAW'S asap.
> Thanks again.


It really doesn't take much air volume through a cooltube to make them work OK. However, long ducts (more than about 3m) or those with lots of bends will not work well with axial fans. However, I can see as how a 100mm (4") computer type fan wouldn't be anywhere near enough air for a cooltube, even with a single 400 in it.

I use an Allvent model A60, 150mm axial blower rated at 192CFM for my pair of cooltubes in series. Works fine for a pair of 1000HPS. I have just two 90 bends in my cooltube line and it is almost exactly 3m from fan to duct outlet. 

My pair of 1000s in series cooltubes' outlet air temp runs about 12C higher than the intake air temp. The glass surfaces stay plenty cool enough to lay your hand on them, even with a 1000. Cool glass means the heat is going out with the cooltubes' exhaust air instead of being convected into the room's airmass. Never should they get so warm that you can't lay your hand on them, much less get hot enough discolour metals. 

You were right to stop running it the way you were. Would have damaged the lamp tube, socket or other bits. Get a decent axial blower of the same diameter as your cooltube and she'll be right. 



MajesticWhelk said:


> I swear I remember seeing a DIY article on how to attach a DIY batwing reflector to a cooltube.
> 
> Can anyone point me to that?


Cooltubes usually have two hanging points, a couple of pressed-in pem nuts fitted into the aluminium collars on the ends of the glass tube, designed for a couple of screweyes. Just drill 2 holes in the batwing to suit the spacing of the pem nuts on the cooltube and run the screweyes through those. Too easy.



cmak40 said:


> HEY AL. B FUCT, sorry bout the caps wanted you to see this lol. i have to admit that your way of cloning is the BEST. i admit i tried the old keep the 99%humidity and wet all the time and my clones all burnt up and turned yellow, i started foloowing your method with those clones and also cut more to your way and the new cuts caught up to the old ones in root size. THANK YOU very much. that cloning method is the SHIT hands down


Good.  Glad that's worked out for you. You wouldn't believe how many ppl over the years who have tried to tell me that I'm some sort of nutter, that'll never work, etc. Criticisms have _*always*_ come from ppl who believe grow guides (of any vintage, including Uncle Bob's 1972 Yippie Underground grow book) are bibles and their authors have never once gotten anything wrong... and naturally haven't tried my methods themselves. 

I can walk you through different editions of Ed Rosenthal's and Jorge Cervantes' books from over the years and point out numerous places where they contradict themselves. To be fair- newer editions of any grow book _*should*_ have corrections- and as such, growers should buy the latest & greatest - and _*burn*_ the old ones! 

The proof of the pudding is independent replication- which you've just done, with obviously good success. You're also not the first person to tell me they have much better success with my cloning methods than with traditional 'sauna' methods. Here's some comments from the rep points thingie:



> Your reputation on this post is Extremely Positive.
> 
> Comments on this Post:
> 
> ...


Simple as this, I don't write anything that I can't prove, _*particularly*_ when I am defying conventional wisdom or contradicting well-known grow book authors. I'd be wasting my time and yours. Getting bad info from yahoos on pot forums is easy. Getting better info from a pot forum than the grow books is unusual- and ppl are right to be sceptical, but I'd take the scepticisms more seriously from people who would just have a try before spewing off.

I don't have the latest from Ed & Jorge at this moment, but I would not be surprised to see that they include similar methods to mine- or if they don't now, will in upcoming editions.



Kuji said:


> Al, this question is a tad off topic but I figure you're in the prefect position to answer it.
> 
> How much weed does it take you to get high?
> 
> The reason I ask is cuz you have a large, steady supply of quality weed and from what I've read, smoke quite a bit of it. The reason I ask is becuase I see these medicinal grow videos where these guys have 40plant+ gardens and it's ALL PERSONAL. This one guy said he'd have 4ozs off each plant w/ 47 plants and that was BARELY enough "medicine" to last him four months. I don't see how these MM patients go through so much weed.


4oz x 47 plants = 188oz. To smoke 188 oz in 4 mos (120 days) means that person is using 1.56oz/day. 

If you're making brownies or cannabis cookies, it's reasonable to use much more than one would use if smoking- but 1.5z/day is just wacky. You'd be _*quite*_ ill (rapid pulse, dizziness, sometimes paranoia, general yucko feeling) if you tried to eat a batch of brownies with 1.5z of weed in them in one day. 

I don't even think it would be _*possible*_ to smoke 1.5z in one day, unless there were an awful lot of wastage (i.e huge spliffs).

While cannabis affects almost everyone slightly differently and there is a 'tolerance' effect with chronic use of cannabis, where it takes more bud to produce a suitable effect, it's folks like the one you cite who give med users a bad name. 

Cannabis is unique among drugs in that users stop using the drug when they've got a sufficient effect. While one can build some level of tolerance, one doesn't become immune to THC. Even chronic smokers can get a bit of a buzz on if the weed is any good at all. 

Anti-drugs campaigners, more familiar with the effects of central nervous system depressants like alcohol and opiates, presume universally that the more of an active ingredient in a drug or compound, the more harmful or dangerous it is. This is a reasonable idea for alcohol and opiates, where high doses are fatal. 

THC is a rare exception. Not only is THC totally non-lethal (aspirin has killed many more people- see Reyes' Syndrome), the more THC in a particular sample of cannabis, the LESS the user will smoke. With good buds, it's rare for a smoker to smoke a whole joint at once- they'll usually have a couple puffs and put it out. 

Me, I go through about 1/4-1/3 oz a week. I have a cone with my coffee first thing in the morning (4-5am usually) and more cones about every 2-3 hours until bedtime (midnight). I don't get whacked-out spacey kinda high on a cone or two, just a bit lightheaded for about 20 mins. Thing is, I don't LIKE being whacked out. I just need my orthopaedic pains a bit dulled down. A cone or 2 is enough. 



Mrgrow626 said:


> Hey al B
> Sorry for all the questions but i just love the way you grow =)
> 
> Do you think Master Kush would be a good strain for this type of grow?


Choose hybrids which are mainly indica dominant. The breeder's website or the seedbank should tell you. 



Kaosisglobal said:


> Hey Al what do you think of The Hempy Collective? I am sure you are familiar with the Hempy buckets. I am a little interested in them now, especially for low budget and ease of use. As of right now, those are the pros that I am looking at. I heard of root rot as a con, but all the users say not true. You are my go to guy, what do you think??


Hempy users swear they do not rot roots. Some have posted pics of seemingly intact rootmasses (though the roots were covered pretty well with perlite, making it impossible to tell what sort of shape they were in). 

Being non-recirculating hydroponic systems, Hempy buckets, like wick systems, can't provide the level of root oxygenation that one can apply in recirculating systems. May as well be soil. The greatest oxygenation comes from NFT, DWC and aero systems, where there's no or minimal media, permitting even continuous flooding or watering. Those systems have drawbacks in maintenance and reliability, so systems with some media which can tolerate frequent flooding with freshly oxygenated nute solns without saturating are a good compromise. Systems which use absorbent media which does not tolerate frequent or constant flooding/watering provide the least oxygen to the roots- and will pretty much perform like soil.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Thanks for the link, but I was actually referring to a DIY on how to attach a batwing to a cooltube. I googled it and found something but it required welding, of which I have no experience, not to mention I don't have a torch.


 
Cooltubes should have some type of ring-clamp that comes with them.. if not get one from Lowe's and use a rivet gun to attach the wing to the band.. then the band to the tube.







Enigma


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 28, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Get a sheet of aluminum.. some clamps.. something round to form it to.. and some mylar.


Mylar would not be useful on a reflector above a big HPS unless it were cooltubed. Would melt holes in the material right above the lamp tube in minutes. If the mylar were glued to the reflector surface and was smooth, it would not diffuse well, inviting hotspotting in the light pattern. 

I'd use hi-temp exhaust header paint, flat white.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 28, 2008)

Also, this is my rough sketch for my new growroom. It is based on Al's SOG model, and it will be a freestanding room inside a buddy's garage.

I will construct the room out of 2x4's and plywood. I decided to put a wall between the flowering area and the rest of the room in order to decrease the amount of air I have to move, and to increase reflectivity. I will also line the walls of the flowering and mothering area with foylon.

In the space above the clonebox (about 5 or so feet), I am going to have a storage cabinet for all my growing supplies, so the room will be a completely self contained weed factory. I might even put a replica of Al's DIY Bud Dryer in there too so I'll never have to leave. 

Oh, and ANY SUGGESTIONS ARE MORE THAN WELCOME!!! If any of you see a way to improve this operation in the space provide, please feel free to tell me!


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Mylar would not be useful on a reflector above a big HPS unless it were cooltubed. Would melt holes in the material right above the lamp tube in minutes. If the mylar were glued to the reflector surface and was smooth, it would not diffuse well, inviting hotspotting in the light pattern.
> 
> I'd use hi-temp exhaust header paint, flat white.


Once again your advice has changed my grow design.

Thank you.





Enigma


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Also, this is my rough sketch for my new growroom. It is based on Al's SOG model, and it will be a freestanding room inside a buddy's garage.
> 
> I will construct the room out of 2x4's and plywood. I decided to put a wall between the flowering area and the rest of the room in order to decrease the amount of air I have to move, and to increase reflectivity. I will also line the walls of the flowering and mothering area with foylon.
> 
> ...


Because of the material you are using, I'd suggest flat white pain and white de-sanded caulk for joints. You'd want some latex to make sure that NO moisture got into that plywood. 

Humidity will DESTROY that material.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 28, 2008)

Is there another material I could use that would be more suited for my setup?

I was thinking of using sheet rock, but I figured that if I cut a piece out of it and used it as a door that it would break apart at the hinges. Is sheet rock strurdy enough to be used as a door?


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Is there another material I could use that would be more suited for my setup?
> 
> I was thinking of using sheet rock, but I figured that if I cut a piece out of it and used it as a door that it would break apart at the hinges. Is sheet rock strurdy enough to be used as a door?


Nah brah, use the ply wood.. just measure twice, cut once. Paint all pieces *before* assembly. Then caulk all the joints to seal the rooms.

Sheet rock is a *bitch* and half to hang.. trust me on this.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 28, 2008)

YES THERE IS. use pressure treated wood!(wood for decks and outdoor use) youll pay a little more but this is a hydro setup with alot of moisture, and possible overflows and any other water issues. i to built a room for my op and used pressure treated wood, glad i did my hose to my table fell out and feeding time came and spouted over the edge for 4 minutes...and if you really want to seal the room use panda film from top to bottom


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> YES THERE IS. use pressure treated wood!(wood for decks and outdoor use) youll pay a little more but this is a hydro setup with alot of moisture, and possible overflows and any other water issues. i to built a room for my op and used pressure treated wood, glad i did my hose to my table fell out and feeding time came and spouted over the edge for 4 minutes...and if you really want to seal the room use panda film from top to bottom


I agree pressure/salt treated wood is the way to go.. but you're gonna paint it anyway to get maximum reflectivity.. panda-filming that area will be a waste of money.. and it won't seal.

Painting the wood will seal it from moisture, flat white is the best reflective paint.

Caulk the joints to seal, rubber weather stripping and bottom rail door sweeps.. or just some dandy thresholds with gaskets.

For the price.. the pressure/salt treated wood and panda film you will be hurting in the wallet way before you begin growing.

Don't believe me.. price it.

E


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm still considering getting foylon which is 95% reflective but that's gonna be pricy.Maybe I'll upgrade to that after a grow or two. 

Any other suggestions aesthetically?



And how much CFM will I lose running a fan through a filter?


----------



## Enigma (Apr 28, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> I'm still considering getting foylon which is 95% reflective but that's gonna be pricy.Maybe I'll upgrade to that after a grow or two.
> 
> Any other suggestions aesthetically?
> 
> ...


Not sure.. but when mine comes in I will test the blow-thru and suck-thru to see which works best.. some say one way, some say the other.. it really comes down to design of the fan and the fluid dynamics of the setup.


----------



## Kuji (Apr 29, 2008)

I have a question about the 50w per sqft. rule. Earlier you said that you get around 61w p/sqft, but you have two lights over four trays. Each tray is 16 square ft so with one light over each pair of trays so wouldn't you get around 31 wats per square foot since one light covers two trays? 

What am no getting here.


----------



## Kaosisglobal (Apr 29, 2008)

ha Ha that was because he got high.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Also, this is my rough sketch for my new growroom. It is based on Al's SOG model, and it will be a freestanding room inside a buddy's garage.
> 
> I will construct the room out of 2x4's and plywood. I decided to put a wall between the flowering area and the rest of the room in order to decrease the amount of air I have to move, and to increase reflectivity. I will also line the walls of the flowering and mothering area with foylon.
> 
> ...


 heh, all looks great. You'll want to swap your cooltube fan direction to blow through the cooltubes rather than suck. Drawing heated air unnecessarily over the fan motor would... well.. suck. The fan motor needs cooling air, too. If it is at the head rather than the tail, the fan motor will run cooler. 



MajesticWhelk said:


> Is there another material I could use that would be more suited for my setup?
> 
> I was thinking of using sheet rock, but I figured that if I cut a piece out of it and used it as a door that it would break apart at the hinges. Is sheet rock strurdy enough to be used as a door?


 Plywood is OK as long as you can keep it protected from spills. If your op's humidity is high enough to damage ordinary underlayment grade ply, it's too damn humid! Your op's RH should be running 30-50%. 

Plywood-only doors will tend to warp even in ordinary humidity, so frame the door up in 2x4 or something and skin it with plywood. 



MajesticWhelk said:


> I'm still considering getting foylon which is 95% reflective but that's gonna be pricy.Maybe I'll upgrade to that after a grow or two.
> 
> Any other suggestions aesthetically?


 Foylon's interesting stuff. I haven't seen it locally as yet. They make some interesting sales claims. Would like to see those claims tested (by one of us, thanks), but they seem confident that it is both visible and infrared reflective and even recommend it to stop heat loss through greenhouse floors. Fascinating, Captain. 



> And how much CFM will I lose running a fan through a filter?


 If it's an axial fan- most of it. Axials are not suitable for use with filters. Pick a centrifugal for that job. 



Kuji said:


> I have a question about the 50w per sqft. rule. Earlier you said that you get around 61w p/sqft, but you have two lights over four trays. Each tray is 16 square ft so with one light over each pair of trays so wouldn't you get around 31 wats per square foot since one light covers two trays?
> 
> What am no getting here.


You haven't read through to the part of the thread where I worked out that my trays are actually 820mm^2 or 2'8" something and not 4' square.  I am not accustomed to use of feet & inches and simply misestimated when I wrote the lead post in the thread.



Kaosisglobal said:


> ha Ha that was because he got high.


Well, that too, but isn't that a given? This is a cannabis forum, fer fuck's sake.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 29, 2008)

> Foylon's interesting stuff. I haven't seen it locally as yet. They make some interesting sales claims. Would like to see those claims tested (by one of us, thanks), but they seem confident that it is both visible and infrared reflective and even recommend it to stop heat loss through greenhouse floors. Fascinating, Captain.


I've read subcool's growroom 101 thread and he swears by it.



> If it's an axial fan- most of it. Axials are not suitable for use with filters. Pick a centrifugal for that job.


Would an inline fan count as a centrifugal fan? Axials are just computer fans, correct?


Edit:
Also, is there an advantage of having 4 3x3 hydro trays rather than two 3x6's? I've crunched some numbers and it seems that I'll be saving a lot of money getting the larger trays.


----------



## We TaRdED (Apr 29, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Would an inline fan count as a centrifugal fan? Axials are just computer fans, correct?


correct, but not all inline fans are centrifugal though. 

*this is not a *centrifugal inline fan NGW EcoPlus 4" Inline Duct Air Booster Fan - eBay (item 280221775315 end time Apr-29-08 19:12:27 PDT)




*this is a *centrigugal inline fan 4" High Output Can-Fan Inline Duct Fan 178 CFM - eBay (item 120112602770 end time May-17-08 17:49:28 PDT)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

Axial fans are distinguished by having a relatively small number of paddle-like blades with wide gaps between them:



Centrifugal blowers have a large number of smaller blades and very small gaps:



Centrifugal blowers tend to move less volume but can deliver high pressure, for a fan, that is- perhaps 2-3psi- they are not air compressors. However, they can push air into high static pressure loads caused by obstructions such as carbon filters, long ducts (more than about 3-4m) or ducts with more than a couple 90 deg bends. 

When axial fans encounter high static pressure, air pressure just leaks backward between the gaps in the blades. The CFM rating of an axial is useless if it is pushing into a high static pressure. 

Axials are OK for short duct runs with no filters and also as intake fans for a room with a centrif on the exhaust. Since you should be running your room at slightly negative pressure to keep scents from leaking from gaps in the room construction, axials are sufficient. Just use an axial rated at about 80-90% the CFM rating of the exhaust.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

> Also, is there an advantage of having 4 3x3 hydro trays rather than two 3x6's? I've crunched some numbers and it seems that I'll be saving a lot of money getting the larger trays.


Yep, having 4 separate trays & tanks allows you to do stuff like dose wk 5 plants with PK-13-14 for 1 wk only without dosing all the other plants sharing their tank. 

I use 125L tanks for each tray. Seems a good size as the plants eat the nutes at about the same rate as they suck up the water, keeping nute strengh close to constant even as water level drops. I would expect to get the same result in 3x6 trays, you'd need 250L tanks. Inexpensive storage tubs at the dollar shop don't get much larger than 125L, but those rarely cost more than $20. If you want bigger, you'll be paying a good bit more. Connecting a couple of smaller tanks gets complex. Been there, done that...


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 29, 2008)

> MajesticWhelk said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still considering getting foylon which is 95% reflective but that's gonna be pricy.Maybe I'll upgrade to that after a grow or two.
> ...


----------



## Enigma (Apr 29, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> > I noticed a few things. One is the number of doors. Skip the doors, seperate the areas with panda film curtains. You will save your self a lot of money if you view this as an area needing to be insulated, like you would insulate any living space. Forget the plywood, it isnt necessary. You can install Styrofoam or any other closed cell formula product on the outside of the 2x4 wall you construct, put batts of insulation between the 2 x 4's and install panda film as your inside moisture barrier. Unless you are going to pull a permit and make it living space you will not need plywood or drywall on the inside, those are for fire retardation in occupied spaces. This makes it easier for any changes you have to make in your electric and plumbing systems, you don't have a wall to have to cut holes in. Cut a little flap out of the panda film and staple it above all of you recepticles, let it hang down over them, its not waterproof, it will stop spray from hitting them. VV
> 
> 
> I agree the panda film for the doors.
> ...


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 29, 2008)

I was thinking of just putting up the frame and lining it with visqueen, but this is going to be a permanent structure. I also hear that it is difficult to make a lightproof seal with panda film alone.

I don't mind cutting a few holes if it means better stability and reliability.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (Apr 29, 2008)

AHHH I'M SO MAD I DON'T HAVE MONEY!!!

Check out this deal:
3 x 1000Watt Grow Lights+ Entire GROW FOR SALE


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> I was thinking of just putting up the frame and lining it with visqueen, but this is going to be a permanent structure.


For many years, my rooms were simply hanging curtains of panda film attached to a lightweight rectangular timber frame screwed to the ceiling.



MajesticWhelk said:


> I also hear that it is difficult to make a lightproof seal with panda film alone.


nah, dead easy. Just overlap a couple inches where joins have to be made and glue it with silicone sealant. Use tape to temporarily hold the pandafilm together until the silicone sets up.


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 29, 2008)

To make it a more permenent structure you would put the plywood on the outside, and it wouldn't need to be plywood, it could be osb. If you think you can seal plywood better than you can seal air leaks in styrofoam.....I'm done. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

osb?

My latest room is my most permanent to date- framed up with 2x4s and skinned with 3mm MDF, interior wrapped with a single run of pandafilm. The entry is still a bit tent-like, reminiscent of my old rooms, with a flap of pandafilm just behind the door. I didn't attempt to seal my room. Since it runs at slightly negative pressure, any air leakage from my wonky constructions is going down the exhaust duct.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 29, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> I was thinking of just putting up the frame and lining it with visqueen, but this is going to be a permanent structure. I also hear that it is difficult to make a lightproof seal with panda film alone.
> 
> I don't mind cutting a few holes if it means better stability and reliability.


 
IF THIS IS PERMANENT. spend the money on pressure treated wood. and yes you can light proof an are with panda film me and al have both been fruitful in doing so....... and i didnt mean to seal the room for moisture with the panda film but rather air sealed for stink reasons and he wont have to paint if he did that

first one is the pressure treated frame work, second is the panda film sealed room after, and then the PANDA film sealed mother area


----------



## VictorVIcious (Apr 29, 2008)

If you seal the outside of the room so no air leaks in, it won't leak out either. If the plywood were necessary on an inside wall all of the houses in the country would be falling down. Thats a nice room you have. VV


----------



## Kuji (Apr 29, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You haven't read through to the part of the thread where I worked out that my trays are actually 820mm^2 or 2'8" something and not 4' square.  I am not accustomed to use of feet & inches and simply misestimated when I wrote the lead post in the thread.


Sorry about that. So that means a 600w 90k HPS falls well short of ideal for a 4' by 4' area ( about1200mm^2) and provides an average amount of light for a 3' by 3' area? 

Do you think I could get away with a 600w over a 4' by 4'?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> If you seal the outside of the room so no air leaks in, it won't leak out either.


Very true. However, in my case, I'm just a shithouse carpenter and lucky things stick together or stay apart...  I'm hugely lucky if all I get is a few small air leaks instead of a breeze... 



> If the plywood were necessary on an inside wall all of the houses in the country would be falling down.


Agreed. 

I skinned my 2x4 framed room with MDF to make it look from the outside like something other than a frame with a pandafilm grow tent inside. Appearance only. Makes it look like a storage closet. Visitors who are none the wiser remain none the wiser.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Sorry about that.


No, _*I'm*_ sorry for not measuring it before quoting the figure! 



> So that means a 600w 90k HPS falls well short of ideal for a 4' by 4' area ( about1200mm^2) and provides an average amount of light for a 3' by 3' area?
> 
> Do you think I could get away with a 600w over a 4' by 4'?


You'd grow plants, for sure, but I think you may begin to get somewhat ordinary production on the fringe of the light coverage with a 600 over 4x4. It would be on the lower end of what I might suggest for a 4x4 table. 

You could move plants around often to even out growth, but I think the result would be just to spread out the reduction in yield/density across the entire batch, sort of what happens with light movers. 

You can always just not pack the table full to the edges of the light coverage if you don't get the density you want.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 29, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> If you seal the outside of the room so no air leaks in, it won't leak out either. If the plywood were necessary on an inside wall all of the houses in the country would be falling down. Thats a nice room you have. VV


 
thank you vm. it ALL stemed from this thread and i definately owe al a spliff

i also have just plain ol 1/4 inch plywood under my panda film for the built wall for outward appearance



Al B. Fuct said:


> You'd grow plants, for sure, but I think you may begin to get somewhat ordinary production on the fringe of the light coverage with a 600 over 4x4. It would be on the lower end of what I might suggest for a 4x4 table.
> 
> You could move plants around often to even out growth, but I think the result would be just to spread out the reduction in yield/density across the entire batch, sort of what happens with light movers.
> 
> You can always just not pack the table full to the edges of the light coverage if you don't get the density you want.


i know you told me not to but what i have is 2 4x4 areas with 2 2x4 trays in each, one(the first 4 weeks) has a 600 over it and the other 4x4 area(last 4 weeks) has a 1000 over it. i will eventually invest in another 1000 when i get my electrical better figured out.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i know you told me not to


I actually think that's what I suggested you do with the lights you had on hand, wasn't it?


----------



## Kuji (Apr 29, 2008)

A question about flowering time, If your growing a strain that may take a little longer than 8 weeks, can you just let the plants spend a few more days in each tray? 

Like they're rotated every 2 weeks and three days rather than every 2 weeks so in the end it adds up to a little over 9 weeks.


----------



## smartfood (Apr 29, 2008)

Kuji said:


> A question about flowering time, If your growing a strain that may take a little longer than 8 weeks, can you just let the plants spend a few more days in each tray?
> 
> Like they're rotated every 2 weeks and three days rather than every 2 weeks so in the end it adds up to a little over 9 weeks.


Of course, you just have to adjust when you take clones and the other variables to match your increased flowering period. Essentially you'd be on a 17 day rotation as opposed to Al's 14-day.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 29, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Of course, you just have to adjust when you take clones and the other variables to match your increased flowering period. Essentially you'd be on a 17 day rotation as opposed to Al's 14-day.


Exact-a-mundo!


----------



## Kuji (Apr 29, 2008)

Thanks for your help Smart.

Could one switch to say 6 1/2 inch pots without affecting the yeild? I'd like to know becuase I can fit five across a 3by3 are with a little extra space, but if I use 8 inch pots I can only fit four. I'm currently looking for 7in pots


----------



## Enigma (Apr 29, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Thanks for your help Smart.
> 
> Could one switch to say 6 1/2 inch pots without affecting the yeild? I'd like to know becuase I can fit five across a 3by3 are with a little extra space, but if I use 8 inch pots I can only fit four. I'm currently looking for 7in pots


DIY

Find a container and make some cuts?



E


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 29, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Of course, you just have to adjust when you take clones and the other variables to match your increased flowering period. Essentially you'd be on a 17 day rotation as opposed to Al's 14-day.


Yep. What happens on the front end of the chain affects what happens on the back end. The main way to cause problems with the sequence, especially when starting the rotating harvest system, is to feed in more clones than you actually have room for. This forces you to harvest plants on the other end sooner than you should to clear the space. If on a 2-week rotation, only 1/4 the lighted space can be filled with clones every 2 weeks until the line is loaded. 



Kuji said:


> Could one switch to say 6 1/2 inch pots without affecting the yeild? I'd like to know becuase I can fit five across a 3by3 are with a little extra space, but if I use 8 inch pots I can only fit four. I'm currently looking for 7in pots


Yep- the pots I use are 175mm (6.9") dia, 130mm (5.1") dia on the bottoms. Another error I made in the first post- the pots are not 8".


----------



## ArtickTrix (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey AlB.Fuct how much do you yeild every 2 weeks and how tall are your plants when you start to clower them?


----------



## lush1 (Apr 30, 2008)

How comes you get up so early Al? growers stress? And yeah, as matey said above whats your current average yield at? I remember at one stage you saying you might be pushing the 30oz per crop barrier whatwith the cooltubes etc.

A question re. mothers: Do you think on an op exactly half this size you could make similar size clones using a 250w HPS? I'm thinking that you probably can't and that you would need a 400w in order to get the mums to he required size witin the time period? Also what size are the pots that your mums are in? I was thinking 8" pots would be enough.

Many thanks.


----------



## lush1 (Apr 30, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Thanks for your help Smart.
> 
> Could one switch to say 6 1/2 inch pots without affecting the yeild? I'd like to know becuase I can fit five across a 3by3 are with a little extra space, but if I use 8 inch pots I can only fit four. I'm currently looking for 7in pots


If you're in the UK then Wilkinsons have them. 7" pots are definatly around just don't seem to be on the web.


----------



## grandpabear3 (Apr 30, 2008)

alrighty then al, i was too much of a noob and bought a 2500.00 cool cab by sunlight sheds, and its wonderful! until i found your thread and learned about sog. so i have finally finished this thread and after much time and many notes i only have a few questions. the coolcab came with two bulbs. mh/hps, i have to finish a batch of white widow first but i have already got 2 mums going from the clones and the remaining clones in 12/12 400w hps .i intend to semi duplicate your op but $ is an issue for now.

what i want to do is use the cloning chamber on top of the cab and take the dwc res out and use the bottom to grow my mums under the 400w mh or i could take the cool tube out of the cab and use it for my flowering chanber and put some 4 footers in the corners of the cab for the mums , then i could use both the 400's mh/hps over my flood and drain tables. i read waaaay earlier in this thread the with sog i can fit 4 plants per sq ft so then i could concievably buy 1 2x4 table for table 1 and 2 since both are 1400 ppm then use 2 2x2's with their own reserviours so i can treat "tank 3" with that pk stuff...i cant recall the name but it's written down. 
1. do you think i could run the tables in this fashion?
2. the 16sq ft says 800w for the lights, can i combine both the mh/hps in the flower area? if not i will have to buy 2 cool tubes and 2 400w ballasts for the area.right now the cool cab is using the cool tube and hps but if you gimme the ok on the tech side im gonna strip that baby and just use it for clone/mums. i only have 2 lines for power to the room now one is a 15amp and the other is 20amp. i know this is way too much info ...appologies...and thanks in advance to all of you very patient and helpfull people.


----------



## grandpabear3 (Apr 30, 2008)

each 2x2 will have 16 plants in then and i will put the batwing reflector on the cool tube/s.
the 4 footers are flouro's by the way.
cant find flytocel but have plenty of hydroton and was wondering if i cant find floc could i crush up some cubes for the bottom of the pots.


----------



## cmak40 (Apr 30, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I actually think that's what I suggested you do with the lights you had on hand, wasn't it?


i think you told me to squeeze 2 600s and the 1000 over the whole 4x8 area. which is probably still a good idea but the electrical i have under control right now without blowing breakers and shit, and thats with the washing machine running and my sump pumps on. looking to buy a house tho so i may have to start again but this will allow me to get that 1000 and wire the way i want...


----------



## Enigma (Apr 30, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i think you told me to squeeze 2 600s and the 1000 over the whole 4x8 area. which is probably still a good idea but the electrical i have under control right now without blowing breakers and shit, and thats with the washing machine running and my sump pumps on. looking to buy a house tho so i may have to start again but this will allow me to get that 1000 and wire the way i want...


2 600w's are mo-betta than a single 1000w.. but that is all in the design.



E


----------



## lush1 (Apr 30, 2008)

Enigma said:


> 2 600w's are mo-betta than a single 1000w.. but that is all in the design.
> 
> 
> 
> E


are they though? I've heard that a 1000w gives bud density greater than a 600w could.


----------



## Enigma (Apr 30, 2008)

lush1 said:


> are they though? I've heard that a 1000w gives bud density greater than a 600w could.


(1) 1000w; 150,000 Lumens - 150L/w
(2) 600w; 95,000 Lumens - 158L/w

The two 600's will have a better coverage area.. but it is really dependent on the room design.



E


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 30, 2008)

ArtickTrix said:


> Hey AlB.Fuct how much do you yeild every 2 weeks and how tall are your plants when you start to clower them?


about 1.5lb every 2 weeks, when all is going well- my latest batch isn't going to touch that because I stuffed up the pH, but the batch behind it looks like it will hit the 23oz/23plants mark.

Plants are the same height (bout 200-230mm, 8-9") when going into the flowering area as they were when I cut them and stuck them in the clone box. The clonebox is not intended to veg the clones- only has some fluoros, intended only to convince the clones that it is daylight for 18+h/day. 

SoG is all about zero veg time post the clones setting root. This is how we get short plants, literally growing the top cola _only_ of a plant grown by natural means. Once the clones have a good spray of roots, they go in pots of media in the flowering area.



lush1 said:


> How comes you get up so early Al? growers stress?


Nah, I've had a sleep disorder for yeeeears. I only sleep about 60-90 mins at a time, tops. I get sick of being in bed after about 3-4h.



> A question re. mothers: Do you think on an op exactly half this size you could make similar size clones using a 250w HPS? I'm thinking that you probably can't and that you would need a 400w in order to get the mums to he required size witin the time period? Also what size are the pots that your mums are in? I was thinking 8" pots would be enough.


I think I could probably run my 10 mums with a 250. Haven't tried it tho. However, I'm VERY confident that you could easily run half the number of mums I do with a 250.

All my plants are in 175mm pots.



bugsrnme said:


> alrighty then al, i was too much of a noob and bought a 2500.00 cool cab


ouch.  For that kind of money, you could have come very close to duplicating my entire op, with 2x 1000HPS and a 400 for mums. I think it would cost about $3K to rebuild my op with all new parts.



> what i want to do is use the cloning chamber on top of the cab and take the dwc res out and use the bottom to grow my mums under the 400w mh or i could take the cool tube out of the cab and use it for my flowering chanber and put some 4 footers in the corners of the cab for the mums , then i could use both the 400's mh/hps over my flood and drain tables. i read waaaay earlier in this thread the with sog i can fit 4 plants per sq ft so then i could concievably buy 1 2x4 table for table 1 and 2 since both are 1400 ppm then use 2 2x2's with their own reserviours so i can treat "tank 3" with that pk stuff...i cant recall the name but it's written down.


It's Canna's 'PK-13-14.'



> 1. do you think i could run the tables in this fashion?
> 2. the 16sq ft says 800w for the lights, can i combine both the mh/hps in the flower area? if not i will have to buy 2 cool tubes and 2 400w ballasts for the area.right now the cool cab is using the cool tube and hps but if you gimme the ok on the tech side im gonna strip that baby and just use it for clone/mums. i only have 2 lines for power to the room now one is a 15amp and the other is 20amp.


When you remember that lumens don't 'add' (for CFLs, HPS or even a dozen flashlights), your answer becomes clear. Given what you have on hand, use your MH for the mums, HPS for flowering plants, fluoros over your clones.

MH is a bit of a waste in flowering. Cannabis flowers in autumn, when the sun is rather low in the sky. The low angle creates a long path through the atmosphere, filtering most blue out of the spectrum. Thus, a red-yellow spectrum is a flowering trigger, along with a 12/12 hour photoperiod. The photoperiod is the main trigger- you could flower with the MH if you didn't have anything else. Buds might come up a bit leafier than I like, tho. HPS gives the best results in flowering because it most closely mimics late autumn sunlight in the subtropical/temperate latitudes where cannabis plants evolved.

My mother area, inclusive of flood tray, tank and clearance for the lights, requires just as much vertical height as my flowering area, a minimum of about 2m (6' and inches). I'm not sure you'll have enough vertical height in the bottom of your coolcab to raise up mums. They get very tall, very fast.

Your lighting equipment should be labelled with the current draw in amps as well as the power consumption in watts. Add up the amps to make sure that what you have on a ckt doesn't exceed 80% of the breaker rating. 

If it's not labelled, you can figure a 400W HPS or MH will draw about 460W. Divide that by your line voltage and you get the current in watts. If on 120V, a 400 (which actually pulls about 460W from the AC mains) will draw 460W/120V=3.87 amps. On 240v, it's 460W/240V=1.91A. You're not going to be stressing your 15 & 20A ckts too much with a couple of 400s.



bugsrnme said:


> each 2x2 will have 16 plants in then and i will put the batwing reflector on the cool tube/s.
> the 4 footers are flouro's by the way.
> cant find flytocel but have plenty of hydroton and was wondering if i cant find floc could i crush up some cubes for the bottom of the pots.


Yeah, that'd probably work- but I don't know why you want floc in the pot bottoms if you are using pellets. The purpose of the floc in my application is to keep Fytocell crumbs from escaping the pots' drain holes and to reduce the buoyancy of pots filled with Fytocell. You have neither concern with pellets. I guess it might provide a barrier against gnats entering your rootballs via the drain holes.



cmak40 said:


> i think you told me to squeeze 2 600s and the 1000 over the whole 4x8 area. which is probably still a good idea but the electrical i have under control right now without blowing breakers and shit


hm, OK.  What you have going will keep you pretty busy. 



Enigma said:


> The two 600's will have a better coverage area.. but it is really dependent on the room design.


Agreed, except cooltubes allow 1000s to be run a lot closer to plants, closing up the lumens/m^2 gap between uncooled 600s and 1000s. Someone along the line in this thread (I can't find it ) calculated that a cooled 1000 can lay down some 80K lumens per m^2 or something wacked out like that at a 350mm spacing. 

A pair of 600s will draw about 1310W, a 1000 will draw about 1105W. At 15c/kWh, the pair of 600s will cost $10.38/mo more to run than a single 1000. In a 4-tray system, where a 600 is used over each tray, the difference of course doubles to an added $20.76/mo. 

2620W for 4x 600 vs 2210W for 2x 1000 makes a difference for 240V growers who may only have access to a 10A circuit. 2620W is JUST over 10A on 240V (2400W). 2210 is just under. 

Up to you! I think 600s over each table would give great results, but the pair of 1000s over 4 has served me pretty well, too.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Apr 30, 2008)

The sulfur 'burner' looks like it is doing its job. I've got 2 batches in now that have never been sprayed with anything for powdery mildew and they look great. Deep, healthy green, not a hint of dust.

Tray 1 at 2 wks:



The sulfur 'burner' was put in before this batch went in the room. Has not been sprayed with anything to inhibit PM.

Tray 2 at 4 wks:



Same here. The sulfur 'burner' was put in before this batch went in the room. Has not been sprayed with anything to inhibit PM.

Tray 3 at 6 wks:



These plants were in the room before the sulfur 'burner' was installed. They did get a pretty bad dusting of PM before they were sprayed and the 'burner' installed. 

What looks like PM on these plants is dead PM, after a spray with a lime sulfur @ 0.5ml/l mix. Sulfur 'burner' is stopping any recurrence.

Tray 4 at 8 wks:



These plants were also in the room before the sulfur 'burner' was installed. They did get a pretty bad dusting of PM before they were sprayed and the burner went in. 

This batch was damaged by a pH error. The probe on my pH meter had worn out and I shot about .7 low in their weeks 1-2. This resulted in plants being stunted. They have recovered as best they can in the remaining 6 weeks and will produce short, stumpy colas which are coming up dense and heavy, but only half as much as there should be. Leaves were cooked by powdery mildew in concert with the pH problem. PM has not recurred in these plants since spraying and installation of the sulfur 'burner'. 

I keep using alarm quotes around 'burner' because this device does not actually burn sulfur. 







It warms powdered sulfur to about 110C, which melts it and causes it to give off vapor. 







You don't want to be in the room when it's running! *phew*! Still less stinky than lime sulfur spray. 

The best instructions I could find on the web (none included with the 'burner') suggested 15mins/day and reduce if tip burn occurs. I decided to double it from the get-go as I had an intransigent PM problem. I have been running the 'burner' on a timer, for 2x 15mins periods per day, about an hour after lights-off and about an hour before lights-on. 

I have noticed the verrrrry beginnings of tip burn on the new plants and am seeing an effect on PM, so have cut it back to 2x 10mins cycles per day on the same sked. It takes about 5 mins for the sulfur to melt and begin to evaporate. Running during lights off makes it more likely the exhaust blower won't be running when the 'burner' is on, which would simply blow the vapor out the exhaust.


----------



## grandpabear3 (Apr 30, 2008)

When you remember that lumens don't 'add' (for CFLs, HPS or even a dozen flashlights), your answer becomes clear.

so then i'll get 1 1000w hps w/cooltube for the 16 sq ft area so i have my lumens covered. (unless i'm crazy wrong)

but the table set up is ok right...1 & 2 will be one 2x4 table with it's own res and tables 3 & 4 will be 2x2 each with it's own res

i believe i understand correctly that they'll fit my question is more towards the res's working properly the way i intend to set it up...i just see the chance to save $ and only use three tables without compromising the way the op runs like you said it should

thanks for all your effort and help you have made a huge difference in everything i do in my op and will be the cornerstone of my success!

wife and sis still available in florida


----------



## Kuji (Apr 30, 2008)

Is the 400 watter over the mums cool tubed?


----------



## grandpabear3 (Apr 30, 2008)

yes inside the cool cab but im gonna move it over and use it for clones only and take the cool tube and 400w mh out and install them in the mom chamber im about to build


----------



## cmak40 (May 1, 2008)

kuji..if you are talkin to al no his 400 is not tubed.

bug... i think u are on the right track. 1 1000 would be perfect over a 4x4 area which has 1 2x4 flood table and 2 2x2 flood tables to make a 4x4 square right? thats gives your area 62.5 watts per sf which is plenty all you have to do is use separate pots to move them about to get good equal growth.


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 1, 2008)

thank you kindly for the response i just bought all my tubing and fittings to finish up...now i have to find a cool tubed 1000 hps for a decent $


----------



## Enigma (May 1, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> thank you kindly for the response i just bought all my tubing and fittings to finish up...now i have to find a cool tubed 1000 hps for a decent $


Check HTGSupply.com

Just one of many.



E


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 1, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> so then i'll get 1 1000w hps w/cooltube for the 16 sq ft area so i have my lumens covered. (unless i'm crazy wrong)


that'll do. 



> i just see the chance to save $ and only use three tables without compromising the way the op runs like you said it should


You might be able to combine trays 1 & 2 (wks 1-2 and 3-4) but giving separate trays & tanks to plants in wks 4-6 and 6-8 allows you to dose the wk 5 plants with PK for a week without dosing others. 

However, I find having 4 identical tanks simplifies matters- I know all 4x 125L tanks will get 400ml each Canna Flores A&B every time. Also, having 4 separate tanks, trays and pumps means that a pump failure affects fewer plants. 



Kuji said:


> Is the 400 watter over the mums cool tubed?


Nope. I would have a hard time fitting in the ducting because of the narrowness of the space and the tube's axis being perpendicular to the long dimension of the floor. If I turned the lamp around 90 degrees, it would be easy, but then the light would mainly be on the walls and not the plants. It's also not as critical an issue in this space as vegging plants are not as persnickety about temp. They are pretty much OK from 18C-28C. Lower temps slow growth and higher temps tend to cause some elongation, but you can pick how much stem you want to use when you're doing the cuttings, so it's not something I've put a lot of work into.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (May 1, 2008)

Hey Al (or any other commercial growers),

Is growing marijuana your only income? What do you do with all that cash?

People always say to just buy the little things with cash and the important things like car payments and rent with your legitimate money. However, when the vast majority of your money is "dirty" cash, that becomes a little more difficult.

Since I am about to build the growroom I've been discussing with you guys, I've been trying to figure out what to do with all the money. Not everything can be settled with just cash without the IRS getting all over your ass, so do you have any advice?

Would it be unwise to open accounts at 5 different banks and deposit 200 bucks cash into each account every two weeks?


Tax evasion isn't my cup of tea.


----------



## Enigma (May 1, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Hey Al (or any other commercial growers),
> 
> Is growing marijuana your only income? What do you do with all that cash?
> 
> ...


I doubt this is the place you'd want to write about money laundering.

There are ways to do it.. like with loans.. but you didn't hear that from me.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (May 1, 2008)

Its not like anyone who gives me advice is going to get caught...

Giving me advice is not an admission of guilt!

Plus, I would NEVER consider breaking any law.. caugh ah hem


----------



## Enigma (May 1, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Its not like anyone who gives me advice is going to get caught...
> 
> Giving me advice is not an admission of guilt!
> 
> Plus, I would NEVER consider breaking any law.. caugh ah hem


Get a loan from a friend.. pay cash.. but never 'pay' it back.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 2, 2008)

I'm not prepared to detail my income sources, but I can give some general suggestions. 

Cover your tracks by making very few. 

Pay cash for everything you possibly can, up to limits on cash transactions which are reportable to tax authorities. 

If you need to buy a car worth more than a couple thou, take out a loan and pay it off- quickly, but regularly. Never anything flash. Find a local car park with about 100 cars. Buy a copy of whatever you find at least 20 of! 

Recent model and expensive cars are *not* recommended, unless you live in Beverly Hills. Looking a _little_ poor (but never trashy) is good security. A 10-20 yr old ordinary car is great urban camouflage, but you will be able to afford to keep it in _*faaaabulous*_ mechanical condition- important if moving buds anyway. Not so much as dodgy windscreen blades, much less a taillamp out. Nothing to attract attention. Mags, fat tyres, lowered, wings, body kits, tinted, silly neon lights, etc all say "Officer, won't you PLEASE pull me over and have a look under my seats & in the glovebox?"

A clever old friend once bodged up a credible 'pizza delivery' sign for his car windows and used to have an insulated pizza bag he'd carry buds in.  No one questions a 5 minute late night visitor from Luigi's Pizza. 

Your driving style should be courteous and on pace with other traffic at or below the speed limit. Stereo _*off*_ (unless listening to traffic reports), pull over if you have to use your phone, even if it's still legal to use one while driving in your area. 

If you can pay util bills in cash at grocery stores, post ofcs etc. that helps. No 'grey $' through bank accts. Pay 'white $' bills with 'white $' where possible. Leaves tracks, but no one leaves zero. Looks normal. 

Don't buy hydro gear on credit cards unless your shop will agree not to use the word 'HYDRO' or 'HYDROPONICS' in the notes that appear on your statements. Some will accommodate you if you ask nicely. Mine gives no obvious clue of the nature of the biz. Anyone looking over my records won't be immediately tipped- security by obscurity isn't the best way, but can help you. Card payments can often be done in cash at post offices, etc. It's best not to use cards if you can avoid it. 

And lastly... never order beans to an address where they will be grown! EVER!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 2, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Tax evasion isn't my cup of tea.


Well, then think of it as a hobby.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 2, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> Would it be unwise to open accounts at 5 different banks and deposit 200 bucks cash into each account every two weeks?


Patently unwise. Banks demand rather comprehensive ID & tax numbers to open an acct these days. If you fake it and get busted, you're up for ID fraud & money laundering.


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 2, 2008)

what about safety deposit boxes? i buy gold and my wife puts it in a safety d.b. under her and my childrens name....works for us


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 2, 2008)

I Likes Me Treasure....aaarrrrrrgh


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 2, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> what about safety deposit boxes? i buy gold and my wife puts it in a safety d.b. under her and my childrens name....works for us


Good- up to using the wife's name. If the worst happens, she's implicated. Better to give her _plausible deniability_- the ability to say she didn't know nuthin'. SDBs are good because no one knows wot goes in or out but you. Not so sure about buying gold- sounds like a way to leave tracks.


----------



## DaveM (May 2, 2008)

Damn, the large adjustawing which will take 2 bulbs is £125 here in England, but I suppose a small price to pay for good illumination 

medium one is £65 in fact that seems rather a lot to pay seeing as it isn't double the size 

Al have you seen this new shade from adjustawing  
*Powerplant Adjustawing Mantis Pro Reflector*


----------



## VictorVIcious (May 2, 2008)

But gold bought in Australia and worn back to the US leaves no tracks, my wife has a few. Vacations can cost a few hundred or a few thousand, so can home improvements. Its easier to hide than you think. VV


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 2, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Damn, the large adjustawing which will take 2 bulbs is £125 here in England, but I suppose a small price to pay for good illumination
> 
> medium one is £65 in fact that seems rather a lot to pay seeing as it isn't double the size


hm, I can get them for about 98 squid but the shipping from Aus would make it worse than £125, sorry.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 2, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> But gold bought in Australia and worn back to the US leaves no tracks, my wife has a few. Vacations can cost a few hundred or a few thousand, so can home improvements. Its easier to hide than you think. VV


too right, I don't seem to have any trouble getting rid of it.


----------



## DaveM (May 2, 2008)

*Powerplant Adjustawing Mantis Pro Reflector just seen this one Al fits all size bulbs for £65 *

Not sure if two bulbs can be used though, will delve a little deeper into sites, thanks for the reply


----------



## ta2drvn (May 2, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> What do you do with all that cash?


I'm just getting started, but I assume, it is spent or stashed and reimbursed for all the money spent getting seeds to buds. Depending on size of deposits and how you set yourself up, money into you account shouldn't be too much of a problem, after all there ARE plenty of CASH business that are legitimate and legal who's to say you didn't start a small PT one. But Safe Deposit Box's are probably a pretty good idea also. 



MajesticWhelk said:


> People always say to just buy the little things with cash and the important things like car payments and rent with your legitimate money. However, when the vast majority of your money is "dirty" cash, that becomes a little more difficult.


I'm not so sure it will matter that much. I would think this is something to take into consideration if you are trying to separate assets so that if you are 'busted' and a the gov want to take away assets and you want paper trail to try to defend yourself. 




MajesticWhelk said:


> Since I am about to build the growroom I've been discussing with you guys, I've been trying to figure out what to do with all the money. Not everything can be settled with just cash without the IRS getting all over your ass, so do you have any advice?


Easier than you think if you don't mind working at it. But then again if you establish yourself as having a business you can avoid a lot of these kind of headaches. You can even set up the business in a way that it is in a related field (flower delivery, horticulture advisory, gardening, ect) an keep everything very vague as to the detailed description of the business, file taxes on it, ect.



MajesticWhelk said:


> Would it be unwise to open accounts at 5 different banks and deposit 200 bucks cash into each account every two weeks?


More headache than it is worth, no need. Besides 5-8K per deposit is large enough to get money into your account without reports generated. Besides it is not that big of a deal if you are depositing a couple of big deposits anyways, all that happens is the IRS is notified that you had a large deposit they don't flag it as a drug deposit and have someone contact you for reasons, besides if it doesn't happen all the time who's to say you didn't win the money in a poker game? (hint, hint)



MajesticWhelk said:


> Tax evasion isn't my cup of tea.


Every question you have asked is how to evade taxes, so I would say Tax evasion IS your cup of tea, you just don't want to get caught drinking. Otherwise start a business and file taxes on the income you generate from that business otherwise you ARE committing tax evasion period. If you are in Cali or another MM state it would be easier to set up.

Oh yeah I am not an attorney or anything like that so don't take this too seriously.


----------



## MajesticWhelk (May 2, 2008)

ta2drvn said:


> Every question you have asked is how to evade taxes, so I would say Tax evasion IS your cup of tea, you just don't want to get caught drinking.


Precisely.


----------



## Enigma (May 2, 2008)

Still trying to find a reasonably priced Adjust-a-wing in the states...


----------



## MajesticWhelk (May 2, 2008)

Enigma said:


> Still trying to find a reasonably priced Adjust-a-wing in the states...


So have I. 

So far they're all 100+ dollars plus 50+ shipping, not to mention the price of the cooltubes...


Do you know if there are cooltubes for sale without the reflector?


----------



## Kuji (May 2, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> So have I.
> 
> So far they're all 100+ dollars plus 50+ shipping, not to mention the price of the cooltubes...
> 
> ...


I've been trying to find these too as the attached reflectors seem ridiculously dinky and inefficient. 

The cool tubes at HTG seem reasonably priced as far as cool tubes go and I'm trying to contact them now to see if the reflector is removable. From the pics, it looks like it is. But then I'm essentially paying 85 dollars for a plastic tube and a cord.

EDIT: Hey AL, what do you think of this prefabricated grow kit as a veg room? It seems to be a great deal, though somethings aren't necessary. Only $340 for a light, reflector, trays, mylar, and other shit. I'd prolly ditch all the organic crap. Would this suit a veg room nicely and can it be DIY'ed for a significantly cheaper price?


----------



## Enigma (May 2, 2008)

Kuji said:


> I've been trying to find these too as the attached reflectors seem ridiculously dinky and inefficient.
> 
> The cool tubes at HTG seem reasonably priced as far as cool tubes go and I'm trying to contact them now to see if the reflector is removable. From the pics, it looks like it is. But then I'm essentially paying 85 dollars for a plastic tube and a cord.
> 
> EDIT: Hey AL, what do you think of this prefabricated grow kit as a veg room? It seems to be a great deal, though somethings aren't necessary. Only $340 for a light, reflector, trays, mylar, and other shit. I'd prolly ditch all the organic crap. Would this suit a veg room nicely and can it be DIY'ed for a significantly cheaper price?


It is glass, the reflector is removable.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 3, 2008)

DaveM said:


> *Powerplant Adjustawing Mantis Pro Reflector just seen this one Al fits all size bulbs for £65 *
> 
> Not sure if two bulbs can be used though, will delve a little deeper into sites, thanks for the reply


 Functionally, it'll probably do the same thing as genuine AAWs, depending upon the sort of reflective surface they use. Looks like the Mantis has 2 focus settings. AAWs have 10 for wing focus plus a vertical slipper tube mount. The slipper mount will go on the shelf if you retrofit cooltubes, tho.



MajesticWhelk said:


> So have I.
> 
> So far they're all 100+ dollars plus 50+ shipping, not to mention the price of the cooltubes...


AAWs are going to be exxy wherever you look. Accent owns some patents on a certain flavour of the batwing design. The Mantis could be close to infringement. When you own a patent on something, you can be the sole maker or licensor of a product design- and so keep prices higher than a happy cat's ass. I do like the feature on the Mantis which allows independent focus adjustment of either side of the wing, tho. Would suit my trays 1 & 2 better than the AAWs.



> Do you know if there are cooltubes for sale without the reflector?


Yes, you can get them with or without refs, the latter is usually intended for vertical mounting. I couldn't get the size I wanted without refs, so the tinsnips took out the refs on the 150 x 500mm tubes I did buy. The refs were fixed to a supporting frame with some pressed-in Pem nuts, which I wished to preserve for the hanger screweyes, so the reflector had to be cut out. 



Kuji said:


> EDIT: Hey AL, what do you think of this prefabricated grow kit


what prefabricated grow kit? 

Almost anything can be DIYed cheaper- except flood trays. Vacuformed PVC trays beat anything you can make yourself and are not that exxy- 900mm^2 trays cost me $52. Cost out the items separately and compare.


----------



## DaveM (May 3, 2008)

Thanks Al 
Am currently bidding on ebay for the large adjustawing


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 3, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Thanks Al
> Am currently bidding on ebay for the large adjustawing


The ref itself is made of two sheets of ally. They are joined by keyhole slots on one panel and riveted discs on the other, which fit into the keyhole slots. 

When assembling AAWs, the panels should first be fitted to each other, then the ref can be bent and put under tension. Improperly assembled AAWs (tensioned first then panels joined) can have damaged keyhole slots or discs. Ask the seller about that- make sure the ref you're bidding on is intact and hasn't been bolted or riveted to get around broken discs or deformed keyhole slots. .


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 3, 2008)

hey al i believe you said you use 125L tanks for you tables. I was wondering if i will need the same size or bigger for my set up...table 1 and 2 combined for a 2'x4' table and tables 3 and 4 are both 2'x2'. maybe i can go smaller with the 2'x2's and maybe a lil bigger on the 2'x'4' ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 3, 2008)

My tables are 820mm x 820 x 75mm flood depth, so the volume required to flood is ((820*820)*75) = 50,430,000 cubic millimetres (cc) or 50.43L. Thus, I need a bit less than half the 125L to flood the trays. About 1/5 the 125L (25L) is needed to keep the pump submerged in the common dollar shop storage tubs used for tanks. 

If your tanks are undersized, nute strength will have a tendency to bump up as a higher proportion of water is sucked up compared to the amount of nutrient used. If tanks are sufficiently sized, nute strength will remain constant even though the tank level is dropping. 

Calculate your tray flood volume as I have and use a tank about double that figure in volume.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 3, 2008)

what kind of pots do u use? im using the net pots with hydroton in them, but i wanna try your pots


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 3, 2008)

Plain old 175mm black plastic pots. 







Available darn near anywhere, check your locality for a garden plastics supplier for the cheapest prices. I buy my pots from Garden City Plastics in stacks of 70 for $AUD 0.45 per pot.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 3, 2008)

hmm interesting those are the same pots i use for my organics im also growing on the side, do u flood ur table with those??? hmm i didnt no you could use those to floood i might try it because my roots on my net pots are fuckin everywhere hanging i dont like it.. well fuck ya how much per plant do u get when u jus veg straight to flower half zone to a o?? im guessing well i might veg mine for 2 weeks bc mine clones arent near as thick as yours damm. well im gonna go water the organics.

peace


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 4, 2008)

bb1, read the first post in the thread and your Q's will be A'ed.


----------



## Mrgrow626 (May 4, 2008)

IM SORRY AL B I know these questions been anwsered because iv acutally read them but iv been looking for the past 25 min and cant find them.

What specific nutes do you use for each tray.
What is your ppm and tempeture at

Also im going to use pellets and was wondering how often and how long i should flood for?

Sorry again for the questions that been anwsered 

THanks!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 4, 2008)

All flowering tanks get Canna Flores, 1400ppm @ 5.8 (400ml ea A & B in 125L tank of 7.1 tapwater). Tank 3 gets 50ml of Canna PK-13-14 for the plants in wk5 in tray 2. All tanks get 1 tsp Epsom Salts when a fresh tank is mixed as well as 10ml of Canna liquid calcium. All tanks are dosed with H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/litre every 3-4 days to control pathogens. Tank temp is not critical in a flood system and is not monitored nor adjusted. Water loses its dissolved O2 rather quickly at 27C and above but my tanks can't possibly reach that temp as the room air doesn't exceed 25C.

Flood pellets 3x per lights on in the beginning, make sure the flood level is below any RW cubes nested in the pellets. Flood time is dependent upon how long it takes your pumps to flood to the overflow tube level. The pump should run long enough to fill to the overflow level, then shut off.


----------



## 40acres (May 4, 2008)

Allright Al, I am trying this idea in a soil,clay pellet, and mostly cocofiber composite. They are in 3 foot long, 12 inch high,10 inch wide pots, and i am putting 6 clones per pot. 
Obviously because of the medium, it will take more time. I think i have cut it down some with the cocfiber, and the high blue mh i am using.What i am wondering, is there anything that i should know explcitily for a soil grow like this? I figured you would be the one to ask about the sea of green type things. Sorry for going off the topic you were one.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 4, 2008)

40acres said:


> Allright Al, I am trying this idea in a soil,clay pellet, and mostly cocofiber composite. They are in 3 foot long, 12 inch high,10 inch wide pots, and i am putting 6 clones per pot.
> Obviously because of the medium, it will take more time. I think i have cut it down some with the cocfiber, and the high blue mh i am using.What i am wondering, is there anything that i should know explcitily for a soil grow like this? I figured you would be the one to ask about the sea of green type things. Sorry for going off the topic you were one.


Can't advise you on soil, sorry. I really don't know why you're mixing soil with pellets and coco, either. The usual point of using inert media i.e. pellets & coco coir is to permit frequent flooding with a nutrient solution- which you won't be doing in soil. 

More curious yet if you're using the MH to flower- and why.

If you're a new grower, I would strongly disadvise trying new things. Find an op that works and copy it to the letter. If it works for someone else, it will work for you if you duplicate every aspect of the known working grow op. Don't make changes, even little ones. 

Experienced growers can (and should) try small experiments running parallel with their grow ops, which already operate with established techniques. 

Newbs, who don't have an established op which is reliably delivering buds, will find that experimental methods are a great way to long periods with no weed.


----------



## fitzyno1 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Al, 

a few days ago i was linked to your thread from another forum, and now i'm totally addicted to it. I'm at page 112 now.

You have answered all my question, and i've learned so much, 'your da man' LOL 

Anyway, as far as i have read, you have had to answer quiet a few questions over and over as ppl don't bother their arses to read your thread for themselves (or maybe they hadn't the time), it 'is' pretty long, it never seems to stop. So i hope you dont think i'm one of these ppl who couldnt be bothered to read the work you've put into this thread, by asking a couple of questions before i've finnished.

Q#1. Up until p.112 you havent mentioned Mylar, i was planning to use it, and was wondering if the black and white Panda stuff you use is better? And if so, why?

Q#2. I cant get Fytocell where i live, could you tell me a couple of substitutes i could use in its place that hold O2? Other than rockwool, clay pellet and other usual medium. I can get my hands on Perlite if thats any good.

Anyway, hell of a job your doing, keep the good work up!


----------



## 40acres (May 4, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Can't advise you on soil, sorry. I really don't know why you're mixing soil with pellets and coco, either. The usual point of using inert media i.e. pellets & coco coir is to permit frequent flooding with a nutrient solution- which you won't be doing in soil.
> 
> More curious yet if you're using the MH to flower- and why.
> 
> ...


I think the cocofiber will give the plants easier acces to root growth. I see cocpots all the time that work, so there is no reason it wont work as a medium to mix. I have a few complete grows under my belt and am always looking for a leg up. 
I also have 3 or 4 foot plants i am lst'ing to capture the light that is not used in the bottom center of the area.
I think I am going to stick with soil because it feels right to me. I know the earth. I use soil with it on purpose just like having a layer of compost on the top of a plant. Everytime you water, a little bit of nutrients will run down.
It will work, I just dont know to what point. I will keep the plants in veg for a few weeks and then to 12/12. I will update if there is any interest and it works.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 5, 2008)

fitzyno1 said:


> Q#1. Up until p.112 you havent mentioned Mylar, i was planning to use it, and was wondering if the black and white Panda stuff you use is better? And if so, why?


Mylar is a bit too reflective and doesn't diffuse enough. Badly hung, it can focus light and create hotspots. Panda film is lightproof (240u thickness will block a 1000HPS from inches away), tough, cleanable and cheap.



> Q#2. I cant get Fytocell where i live, could you tell me a couple of substitutes i could use in its place that hold O2? Other than rockwool, clay pellet and other usual medium. I can get my hands on Perlite if thats any good.


Perlite is worth a try. Pack the pot bottoms with about 50mm of RW floc to stop the perlite falling out of the drain holes. 



> Anyway, hell of a job your doing, keep the good work up!


'You're doing a hell of a job' _*used *_to be a compliment- before Hurricane Katrina. 



40acres said:


> I think the cocofiber will give the plants easier acces to root growth. I see cocpots all the time that work, so there is no reason it wont work as a medium to mix.


I think you're fooling yourself. There's reasons to use different sorts of media- your purposes are not helped by clay pellets and coir in your soil. 



> I have a few complete grows under my belt and am always looking for a leg up.


Gardeners don't normally want any valuable pot space taken up by rocks- and that's what clay pellets are. If you want a leg up, work out the right balance of sand, soil conditioners like fine woodchips, composted manures, etc. There's several soil gurus on this (and other) pot forums. Ask them how much gravel they usually add to their mix.



> I also have 3 or 4 foot plants i am lst'ing to capture the light that is not used in the bottom center of the area.


SoG will help you lots and gobs. Learn to love short plants. 



> I think I am going to stick with soil because it feels right to me.


Say, that's a great reason. Much better than using hydroponics because it grows more, better quality dope, faster and more consistently than in soil. 

You know what feels right to me? More dope than I could ever smoke, every 2 weeks.



> I know the earth.


I am _somewhat_ familiar with it myself.  



> I use soil with it on purpose just like having a layer of compost on the top of a plant. Everytime you water, a little bit of nutrients will run down.
> It will work, I just dont know to what point.


OOH! A liquid nutrient solution! Be careful, you could have hydroponics sneeeking up on you!



> I will keep the plants in veg for a few weeks and then to 12/12. I will update if there is any interest and it works.


What you will get is tall plants with little development down low on the plant. Lower buds will be fluffy & annoying to manicure. 85% of your yield will be in the top 1/2-1/3 of the plant. So, why not get 85% of the yield of a tall plant- but do that times 4 in the same floorspace as one tall plant? If you grew plants no taller than the depth that your light can penetrate, you wouldn't have to stuff around with the annoying bottom parts... which strangely enough, is what this thread is about- how to grow only the top 1/2 of a cannabis plant.


----------



## VictorVIcious (May 5, 2008)

Now you say 1/2. I have been looking at my tall plants and saying I probably should have pruned them 1/2 up instead of 1/3. Four weks flowering, should I make the adjustment or live and learn this time? VV


----------



## 40acres (May 5, 2008)

check this out though, I have lollipopped the last few harvests to get smaller one cola plants. That idea I think comes straight from this thread. I thought it sounded good, and i decided it is easy.

I am not using an overabundanve of clay pellets, just a smattering, as well as not a bunch of the cocfiber.I may be fooling myself, but no real harm in trying. I can make it work just like nute less soil.

I have some perlite I am going to try.What do you think of it?


If i can get to the point where i can afford a full hydro system to do sog in, I will be doing that as well, I do like soil though. But if I ever can get a nice one, I am going sog all the way.I do think sog is possible with dirt, its just going to take a little longer.
And i admit it grows faster in water. its not fair thought to take taste away. Ever tried hydroponic fruit? Taste like water sacks.



I dont care what you say AL, Me and you are going to work out this soil sog thing.


----------



## cmak40 (May 5, 2008)

LMAO...tried. didnt work. i want taste to but i think al is right in the fact id rather have more that i can smoke or sell every 2 weeks. besides like he said try something tried tested and true then when YOU know what youre doing go and experiment, or even just take 4 clones that you cut and after they set root throw them in soil for yourself, just find a 400 for them or something, theres plenty of ways to get what you want but you should be learning this technique if youre in here....


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 5, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> Now you say 1/2. I have been looking at my tall plants and saying I probably should have pruned them 1/2 up instead of 1/3. Four weks flowering, should I make the adjustment or live and learn this time? VV


VV, we're talking in proportions. Because of the uneven bud production habit of cannabis (biggest buds on the tips of mainstems and branches), most of the yield, even from a SoG plant, does come from the tip-top of the plants, but because they are shorter (mainly due to having been flowered immediately after the clones set root), the avg bud size and density will be much higher. Removing the branches from the lower 1/3 of the stem does get rid of the very smallest buds, but it's more useful an exercise in improving air circ around the plants. 

Keep pruning the lower 1/3. 



40acres said:


> check this out though, I have lollipopped the last few harvests to get smaller one cola plants. That idea I think comes straight from this thread. I thought it sounded good, and i decided it is easy.


It is easy, but a number of factors have to come together in SoG to make it work properly. 



> I am not using an overabundanve of clay pellets, just a smattering, as well as not a bunch of the cocfiber.I may be fooling myself, but no real harm in trying. I can make it work just like nute less soil.


Well, the nut is that the pellets and coir are simply extraneous in soil. The only way you'll get it to work like inert media is to _*use*_ inert media- and a nutrient solution... which we in the biz call hydroponics. 

Noobs often guess there's some special plant growing characters contained in hydroponic media. The fact is that hydroponic media is inert- no nutrient value at all. The job of hydroponic media is to give the roots something to grab on to so the plants stay upright and also to hold some moisture while not permitting total saturation, which removes airspaces from the media. No air in media = poor root development, slow growth, etc. 

I gotta tell you, 97% of the reason why I bother to talk about this with y'all is because there's so much mis- and disinformation out there about growing cannabis, even amongst the cannabis growing community. 

Too many noob growers have succumbed to buzzwords- with 'help' from anti-drugs campaigners. Hydroponics, properly done, _*will*_ grow more plant material faster but _*won't*_ affect the potency, despite the anti-drugsters' claims that hydroponics yields cannabis which is 10-1000% stronger than cannabis from the 1960s and 70s. 

If you grow in soil, you just get less weight. Incorporating hydroponic media into soil won't grow you more or better dope than plain old soil alone. Using hydroponic nutes in soil is a bad idea because hydro nutes include certain micronutes that are already present in soil. 

The reason hydroponics does better than soil is because you are watering with an oxygenated nutrient solution. The more O2 to the roots, the better the plant development. Soil won't let you do that because it generally holds too much water to permit frequent watering. You may only be able to water a plant in soil a couple of times a week before symptoms of overwatering occur. 

Is there any harm in trying hydro media mixed in soil? No, nothing that is *particularly *evil- coir & pellets in soil won't hurt your plants. However, you _could_ have had more compost in your soil mix in the space occupied by the inert material. If you want to do soil, ask some of the soil guys on here how they do it- and copy the competent folks' grows, to the letter. 

There's absolutely no shame in mimicry in this pursuit! If you see any monkeys growing great weed, monkey-see-monkey-do ought to get you some great weed.



> I have some perlite I am going to try.What do you think of it?


Perlite is a natural volcanic glass which contains a small amount of water. When it is heated to about 870C, it puffs up like popcorn, and for the same reason. The combination of the glass material becoming softened from the heat and the flash evaporation of the water causes the puffing. 

Of course, perlite is inert. No nutrient value. It makes a pretty good soil conditioner because it holds some water but won't saturate. Used alone, it's a good hydroponic medium, only problem is it is granular and will fall out of pot drain holes. Packing RW floc in the bottom of the pots solves this problem. 



> If i can get to the point where i can afford a full hydro system to do sog in, I will be doing that as well, I do like soil though. But if I ever can get a nice one, I am going sog all the way.I do think sog is possible with dirt, its just going to take a little longer.


If you are deadset committed to doing soil, this thread probably won't help you much. Hydroponics is more expensive to start up but the ongoing operation costs are not much more than a good soil op. The difference in hydroponics' greater production pays you back, many times over. 



> And i admit it grows faster in water. its not fair thought to take taste away. Ever tried hydroponic fruit? Taste like water sacks.


Apples and oranges, man... Hydroponic tomatoes are tasteless for two basic reasons, but neither have anything to do with hydroponics. The strains used are bred for high production, not good flavour and hydroponic tomatoes are harvested while still green but then forcibly ripened by exposing the fruit to ethylene gas. This turns them red but does not break down complex carbs into simple sugars as happens when you ripen a tomato on your windowsill. Give this a go- ripen some hothouse/hydroponic tomatoes on your windowsill for a week- you will be amazed at the taste improvement. 

Hydroponics doesn't alter the flavour of cannabis one whit. 



> I dont care what you say AL, Me and you are going to work out this soil sog thing.


If you don't care what I say, why are you here?

It won't be *me* & you working out a soil SoG- it'll be you. I have given numerous reasons throughout this thread regarding why soil isn't the way to go for a SoG op. Any further discussion from me is just repetition- and I'm now officially bored with repeating myself!



cmak40 said:


> LMAO...tried. didnt work.
> 
> [...]
> 
> you should be learning this technique if youre in here....


Yeah, it just knocks me out how many ppl have it in their mind that they are going to grow a certain way, then come to me asking if something will work... In fact, they're usually _*already*_ doing it they way they have imagined it will work, but then come to me looking for validation or approval. More than one person has gone away disappointed when I can't give them the validation they want. A few even go away and tell others that I'm either totally nuts or just plain mean when I don't give them the approval they seek. In either case, I'm OK with the fact that folks like that, who are not really looking for information, just an ego prop, simply go away! 

My op and techniques are not something I just worked out yesterday afternoon at 3 o'clock. This particular op is the product of 8 years of continuous refinement out of my 20 years growing weed in various ways. I've arrived at my methods as a compromise between high volume production and low labor input. I've got a good reason for every aspect of this op. If you mimic my op, you'll get what I get out of it, it's that easy. 

There are some variations one can employ that won't make much difference in production, but will generally increase the amount of work involved. I really have pared this all back to suit a lazy stoned slacker, cos that's wot I am!


----------



## VictorVIcious (May 5, 2008)

I uhhh..I think its enough work as it is right now. You can't miss many days and be this successful. Did you see my new 152mm square pots , 35 easily on my 812 mm X1220 mm tables. VV


----------



## PlasmaRadio (May 5, 2008)

40acres said:


> Yeah, i was just trying to ask some questions. I thought since maybe you had a thousand page thread, you wouldn't mind. I was wrong, and you are a dick.


Please, if anything, you're the dick. First off who quotes a novel post? Also, secondly, I see Al B. offer quality advice to people for free all the time. I would have lost patience with ingrates like you long ago. I don't know how he tolerates it.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 5, 2008)

Looks a beaut, VV.


----------



## cmak40 (May 5, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yeah, it just knocks me out how many ppl have it in their mind that they are going to grow a certain way, then come to me asking if something will work... In fact, they're usually _*already*_ doing it they way they have imagined it will work, but then come to me looking for validation or approval. More than one person has gone away disappointed when I can't give them the validation they want. A few even go away and tell others that I'm either totally nuts or just plain mean when I don't give them the approval they seek. In either case, I'm OK with the fact that folks like that, who are not really looking for information, just an ego prop, simply go away!
> 
> My op and techniques are not something I just worked out yesterday afternoon at 3 o'clock. This particular op is the product of 8 years of continuous refinement out of my 20 years growing weed in various ways. I've arrived at my methods as a compromise between high volume production and low labor input. I've got a good reason for every aspect of this op. If you mimic my op, you'll get what I get out of it, it's that easy.
> 
> There are some variations one can employ that won't make much difference in production, but will generally increase the amount of work involved. I really have pared this all back to suit a lazy stoned slacker, cos that's wot I am!


do you mind checkin my op out Al its my signiture, dont need any help i dont think ive copied you to a t just want you to chek it. thanx



40acres said:


> Yeah, i was just rrying to ask some questions. I thought since maybe you had a thousand page thread, you wouldnt mind. I was wrong, and you are a dick.


i admit after my first ? i was apprehensive as to the person al was but after reading THE WHOLE FUCKIN thread i realized he had answered most ?s a thousand times and he was showing a CERTAIN op not the one you are interested in, and that HE IN FACT DOESNT OWE any of us anyfuckingthing. so i came back correct and am about 2 weeks from pulling clones and 12 weeks from perpetual growth, not to mention i told you how to plant yourself a couple the way YOU INSIST upon. and still maintain a perpetual growth...its your fault you cant find the information provided in this cornocopia of info to use to your advantage!!! not als or anyone elses. even if he didnt give the answer you wanted you could get valuble info to apply to your way of growth here!



PlasmaRadio said:


> Please, if anything, you're the dick. First off who quotes a novel post? Also, secondly, I see Al B. offer quality advice to people for free all the time. I would have lost patience with ingrates like you long ago. I don't know how he tolerates it.


*MUCH AGREED!!!*


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 5, 2008)

40acres said:


> Yeah, i was just rrying to ask some questions. I thought since maybe you had a thousand page thread, you wouldnt mind. I was wrong, and you are a dick.


I answered your questions- and I didn't mind. If you call that being a dick, you haven't seen me be a dick. 

I also covered the mindset you presented, which is 'I'm doing it this way, tell me it's great, I really don't care about your opinion if you don't like it.' Begs the question, why did you bother asking any questions?

You can go away now.


----------



## cmak40 (May 5, 2008)

VictorVIcious said:


> I uhhh..I think its enough work as it is right now. You can't miss many days and be this successful. Did you see my new 152mm square pots , 35 easily on my 812 mm X1220 mm tables. VV


dunno about mm but i have square 5.5 inch pots but they are 6.8 inch high so they are about 1.6ish litre i remember you Al sayin 1 litre + is good, these should be A-okay then right, hope so bought 200. i can fit 30 comfortably in my 2x4 flood table(which is 2x4 on the outside and actually only fit 4 of my 5.5" pots wide) or 32 with 2 over the inlet and overflow but i think ill stik to 30 or less per 2 week period.


----------



## massbaster (May 5, 2008)

been reading your 1000 post thread. too bad some of the comments.

just wanted to put my 2 cents in... and say thanks, Al.

i have gotten great info from this thread and come back often to reread it.

i like your idea of being able to do this operation with any number of plants.

i do plan on copying you as much as i can to have a nice rotation. 

since i am a noob, and having just worked out a bunch of "kinks" to this hydro growing, i am definitely ready for some good quality fems to get into this *well explained* SOG rotation.

but again just wanted to say thanks for the info and dont let the buggers get to ya. always a few bad apples on the tree.


----------



## KBkiller42 (May 5, 2008)

this is sick after my current grow im gana do sog


----------



## Enigma (May 5, 2008)

massbaster said:


> been reading your 1000 post thread. too bad some of the comments.
> 
> just wanted to put my 2 cents in... and say thanks, Al.
> 
> ...


I know he isn't bothered by all of the haters.. he has reassurance every two weeks!

HA!



E


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (May 5, 2008)

Hey AL, I had a couple questions... I have been reading a ton and I was wondering if these are some good ideas. 

I was planning on using some sliding glass patio doors for the doors to my room, and do you think that PVC would be a good alternative to the dryer vent tubing that everyone uses for venting? I figured the PVC would insulate the scent better, as would some sliding glass patio doors. 

One other question. you want the exhaust to suck harder than the intake right (example exhaust=200 cfm, and intake 175 cfm?) , so there isn't any smell being force out through the cracks?

I'm getting about 1000$ next week, and plan to gather supplies  Thanks president douche bag, that stimulous check is going to good use.


----------



## cmak40 (May 5, 2008)

massbaster said:


> been reading your 1000 post thread. too bad some of the comments.
> 
> just wanted to put my 2 cents in... and say thanks, Al.
> 
> ...


noob dont mean shit k i planted a couple plants on 2 occasions before now. damn near everything ive learned was from here or i got reference from here. my op is goin pretty well i think never done any kind of hydro in my life was honestly scared to. now i got a mother table and 3 of my flowering tables going with plenty of foreseeable success(chek the journal) just do it the info is here



hornedfrog2000 said:


> Hey AL, I had a couple questions... I have been reading a ton and I was wondering if these are some good ideas.
> 
> I was planning on using some sliding glass patio doors for the doors to my room, and do you think that PVC would be a good alternative to the dryer vent tubing that everyone uses for venting? I figured the PVC would insulate the scent better, as would some sliding glass patio doors.
> 
> ...


patio doors?...?...?...price is high and unnecessary. and for pvc for duct that is definately unnecessary. your intake and exhaust take care of the inefficiencies of those 2 things if you notice al talked about it(youre pretty much right about the cfm for each) the exhaust when more cfm than the intake also sucks in from the leaks if any in the room i.e. your door, or around shitty taped duct worm or any other small cracks its called negative pressure, al talked about it rather recently...


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (May 6, 2008)

I'm just kind of paranoid about the smell. If I find a good price on some patio doors I will still buy them though.

I try to search this thread with what questions I have, but I don't always find the specific answers to the questions I have, and try to read 10x the amount I post. I guess I haven't searched very recently, but I also work almost every day too.


----------



## Enigma (May 6, 2008)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> Hey AL, I had a couple questions... I have been reading a ton and I was wondering if these are some good ideas.
> 
> I was planning on using some sliding glass patio doors for the doors to my room, and do you think that PVC would be a good alternative to the dryer vent tubing that everyone uses for venting? I figured the PVC would insulate the scent better, as would some sliding glass patio doors.
> 
> ...


Check out my journal (link below) I have some information in there on what carbon scrubber I'm using.. it cost around $30 to make.. and it isn't just one, no no.. it is TWO!

The exhaust should always pull more than the intake. This causes negative pressure which will insure that all scents are pulled into the filter(s). Every room has crack that air passes through.. unless you have a lab, a professional one.. with air-locks.

If you don't have any nutes yet, invest in General Hydroponics.. they are the simplest and most effective. Macronutrients/micronutrients/trace elements are all included in either the 3-part system, or the 2-part with a booster.



E


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2008)

PlasmaRadio said:


> I don't know how he tolerates it.


 How? Usually by rolling my eyes at about 60rpm. 

I pretty obviously don't mind people asking questions. Every query I answer increases my own understanding, particularly when I have to do a bit of research to flesh out a complete and cogent answer. 

However- I DO mind when someone fairly obviously hasn't read post #1 (i.e. misses a basic concept like flowering clones right after setting root, suggests vegging clones for a cpl wks before flowering, etc) or when my (usually) well considered answers are rejected on utterly specious reasoning like "X just feels right to me." Those are good for 10% faster eye-rolling. 

I have put YEARS into working this system out. I don't FEEL anything about my op- I research, try stuff, use it if it works, change it if it doesn't. If there's no science in an idea, I won't bother with it. I am a sceptic to the core (on nearly everything). I have to prove things to myself all the time, notably if I am starting with information like salesmans' claims. 

Critical thinking is a life tool that will serve anyone well. You have to be able to discern between persuasion and information. If someone is trying to persuade you, they have a reason for doing so. If their reasoning is neither logical nor based in known science and independent replicatability, they're probably selling you something. However, I know that critical analysis can make me seem unnecessarily negative sometimes. I try to see the upsides and downsides when considering my commentary.



cmak40 said:


> i admit after my first ? i was apprehensive as to the person al was but after reading THE WHOLE FUCKIN thread i realized he had answered most ?s a thousand times and he was showing a CERTAIN op not the one you are interested in, and that HE IN FACT DOESNT OWE any of us anyfuckingthing. so i came back correct and am about 2 weeks from pulling clones and 12 weeks from perpetual growth, not to mention i told you how to plant yourself a couple the way YOU INSIST upon. and still maintain a perpetual growth...its your fault you cant find the information provided in this cornocopia of info to use to your advantage!!! not als or anyone elses. even if he didnt give the answer you wanted you could get valuble info to apply to your way of growth here!


 I absolutely admit a *large *amount of sympathy for anyone looking for specific information- this thread isn't just _1000_ posts long- it's more than _*1700 *_posts long, 170-odd pages. _*Even I*_ can't find some things that I've written in the past (though I'll obviously have a better chance of finding something than anyone else will). It _*is *_a big ask to get someone to read it _*all*_. I repeat things out of courtesy. 

However, the vast majority of the thread is pretty good value for the effort expended, even if you have to plod through it over a week or so. Moreover, once you've read the lot, you are on the same page as everyone else. But come on, _*page 1*_ isn't hard to tough your way through. Post #1 really is required reading, even if you then skip to page 170. It's always obvious to me when someone hasn't covered the basics. I *try *to be kind when referring someone back to the basics. I rarely go _ad hominem_ on people, attacking the person instead of the issue. However, my patience is not without limits. I have no problem with mocking willful stupidity, where gentler means have failed. I have no patience at all for people who rely on wives' tales and regard them with the same reverence as peer-reviewed (independently replicated) methods. 

A discussion forum is pretty obviously a good way to discuss information, but not a very good way to archive it for easily searchable future reference. I've thought about doing a FAQ entry where all the pertinent data is compiled. I've also thought about having admin close this thread and let me start it over again. There's got to be a better way- I just haven't found it yet. I'm leaning toward the FAQ entry, provided I can get in and edit it myself as needed without bothering admin about it. 

This thread isn't really intended for grass-green newbs but I try to make space for them as well. I do so more patiently at some times than others, but we're all human. I work with the presumption that the reader has a certain amount of basic knowledge, such as the life cycle of cannabis. 

Now... back to our regularly scheduled programming.... 



cmak40 said:


> i remember you Al sayin 1 litre + is good


 Yep, for the small size of the plants that we grow in SoG, a litre's worth of rootmass space is generally sufficient. Bear in mind that allowing such a small rootmass space means they won't have a lot of moisture in reserve in case of a pump failure, particularly if one is using a non-absorbent medium like clay pellets.



massbaster said:


> been reading your 1000 post thread. too bad some of the comments.
> 
> just wanted to put my 2 cents in... and say thanks, Al.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for that, mb.  It's comments like yours that keep me doing this. My primary motivation is to help folks grow dope without having to navigate all the learning curves I've skidded through. My payday comes when someone gets an op cranking out buds regularly. 

I started growing dope about 20 years ago and started using cannabis forums around 1995. Interactive internet forums are a GREAT help to dope growers, much more useful than writing a letter to 'Ask Ed,' where he had 12 columns a year in HT and a limited amount of space to reply and no capacity to clarify questions with the person inquiring. I wasn't exactly a total noob when I started using forums, but there's no question that I owe them an awful lot. My op at present is absolutely based in information obtained from pot forums- but to use a popular phrase, if I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood upon the shoulders of giants. This thread is me paying back what I owe to the online dope growing community.



Enigma said:


> I know he isn't bothered by all of the haters.. he has reassurance every two weeks!


 Fortunately, there's not too many haters. Every once in a while, I get a malcontent. I don't spend much time on them. I use the ignore function. But yeah, nothing ever happens that a couple of cones won't cure. 



hornedfrog2000 said:


> Hey AL, I had a couple questions... I have been reading a ton and I was wondering if these are some good ideas.
> 
> I was planning on using some sliding glass patio doors for the doors to my room, and do you think that PVC would be a good alternative to the dryer vent tubing that everyone uses for venting? I figured the PVC would insulate the scent better, as would some sliding glass patio doors.
> 
> ...


heh, President Douchebag.  

Patio doors seem like a lot more than would generally be needed, but because everyone's grow op installation will necessarily be different, it might be the best thing for you. 

A grow room can be as simple as a panda film tent in the middle of a garage, spare bedroom, basement, etc. The less climate control available in the space, the more you will have to provide it when building the room. In only one example, it's probably not practical for someone in International Falls, Minnesota (or any other place where temps are subfreezing for a big chunk of the year) to use a garage as they would have to build a fully heated and insulated area within it. Attics are very hard to use because of heat, accessibility issues for watering and daily maintenance and also the potential for water damage from spills to the ceiling below.

PVC pipe is terrific for use as vent duct as it would present low airflow resistance for long straight runs, particularly compared to flexible duct. However, PVC pipe is BLOODY expensive in the large diameters needed for vent duct. We're talking a minimum 150mm dia and as much as 300mm. I can't even get anything bigger than 150mm at my local hdwe (yep, I've looked)- I'd be seeking a plumbing and drainage supply house. 

Yep, the volumetric capacity of the exhaust should be somewhat greater than that of the intake. Intakes should have a combined CFM capacity of around 80-90% of the exhaust. As you have correctly cited (*thank you* for reading the thread ), this keeps the room at a slightly negative pressure, sucking air in through gaps in construction and putting all scents down the exhaust line. 

You can also put a motor speed controller (MSC) set for about 20-30% of max speed in parallel with your exhaust blower's thermostat. When the tstat shuts off, the fan is still supplied with voltage from the MSC. Instead of shutting off, the fan just falls back to the speed that the MSC is set for.

The fan/s do run all the time, but this is actually easier on fan motors than starting and stopping them. It also keeps a constant flow of air going down the exhaust line, through your carbon filter if you use one. This stops scents wafting out of your op when fans are off. A fan running at low speed will be very quiet, almost inaudible when there's a filter at the end of the line.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> noob dont mean shit k


That's absolutely true. Someone with no experience whatsoever can easily and successfully grow weed if they find a good example of a productive, working op and simply mimic it. Treat it like a recipe. 

Experience is what helps you sort out problems as they happen- and they will, so you need to know the common pitfalls of whatever style of grow you do wind up using.


----------



## Wesley1Pipes (May 6, 2008)

Hey Al, aka Dick - I've read most of your posts and you are now my idol. (Along with Chuck Norris) But I must ask- how would SoG work without trimming the bottom 1/3 of the plant??? JUST JOKING and you should completely ignore people who read your advice and accept it, but then question every aspect of it...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2008)

heh, thanks for that W1P. 

Unfortunately, I would absolutely shit the Chuckster to tears. I'm from the other end of the political spectrum. Chick calls people like me 'liberals' as though it's an insult, whilst we self-admitted liberals (who now call ourselves 'progressives') stifle belly laffs. 

I've given some thought to changing my username to 'Al B. A. Dick.'


----------



## GoodFriend (May 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've given some thought to changing my username to 'Al B. A. Dick.'


... have you ever used any other names, or have you always been FUCT?


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (May 6, 2008)

I think I'm almost to the point of trial and error. Thank you for all the info. Although I have only read about half of this thread, I have probably searched/researched it for 20 hours. Thanks again.

Edit:

I have learned how to make cool tubes.

How to make a sog system.

Went on to find out exactly how to make a Flood table system.

Negative pressures importance.

What type of fans to use.

Decided what strain I will try first (White/Rhino)

How to make a fast bud dryer.

The importance of knowing how your home is wired, and why you might not want to burn it down  .

O3 generators/carbon filters, and how to utilize them.

How to clone. 

Why im going to buy a R/O system. 

PPM.

Heh, if you need someone to make the chapter names for your book hit me up lol.



There is much more stuff I have learned from this thread, But I can't remember it right now . Keep it going, and I'll keep stemming my knowledge from this base.


----------



## stickyicky77 (May 6, 2008)

Hey AL, my clones are just about rooted in the 3" rock wool cubes and will probably be ready to put in my table this weekend. I know that you said to put them 1/2" above the flood level which will cause the roots to grow down into the flood level. My question is shouldn't the rock wool cubes be completely flooded to get oxygenated nutes into the cubes and to flush them out to prevent salt build up and nute lock out ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> ... have you ever used any other names, or have you always been FUCT?


 I've been Fuct for a couple of years now. I was known by another username when I was a Mentor on Overgrow.com. I've retired that username for security purposes. I've registered Al B. Fuct on several of the larger cannabis boards. If you see an Al B Fuct elsewhere, chances are it's me. 



hornedfrog2000 said:


> I think I'm almost to the point of trial and error. Thank you for all the info.


No worries, thanks for the list! We do cover a range of things around here. 



> Why im going to buy a R/O system.


You are? Why?

If your only source of water is from a nearby creek or rainwater tanks, I could see it. If you're on municipal water, it's not necessary.



stickyicky77 said:


> My question is shouldn't the rock wool cubes be completely flooded


No- and if you read the part about why the cubes should be 1/2" above the flood level, you _ought_ to know why, too! 

Pellets will want flooding about 3x a day. If you saturate your RW cube 3x/day with a small plant in it, you'll drown the roots inside the cube. You'll see overwatering symptoms (droopy leaves, yellowing/dropping lower leaves, slow growth) in about 7-10 days. 

Once the cube goes into the pellets, it's all but extraneous. Its job was to provide a damp, humid area to generate first roots. Once that's done and the roots are popping out of the bottom of the cube, we want the roots to seek down into the pellets, where there's lots of airspaces, so we can flood them often with oxygenated nutes. 

Can't flood often in RW because it is so very absorbent. It will allow water to wick up and drive all air out of the material. Once the roots are in the pellets, you can flood really quite frequently. 

Short answer is no- the cube absolutely should not be flooded, especially not 3x/day. You can handwater the pellets _around_ the cube (*NOT the cube*) for the first week after planting in pellets. After then, it should be OK on its own. You'll know for sure all is well when you see roots out of the drain holes of your pots of pellets.

3" cubes are too big. Try the 40mm cubes next time. The large cubes hold too much water. Ideally, you're looking for a properly damp (never wet or saturated) cube on a heat mat to lose about half its water weight in 24h. That's about the amount of time dissolved oxygen will remain in solution. If you can only water every few days, as I would expect would be the case for a cutting in a 3" cube, the dissolved O2 will be long gone by the time you can safely water again. This will contribute to slow rooting times and stem rot. You will get first roots out of the bottom of a 40mm cube in about 5-7 days if all goes well. If it takes longer, something wasn't sterile or the RW was kept too wet. A dry 40mm cube weighs 5g. When just damp and not wet, it will weigh 20-25g. Heavier is too wet.


----------



## stickyicky77 (May 6, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've been Fuct for a couple of years now. I was known by another username when I was a Mentor on Overgrow.com. I've retired that username for security purposes. I've registered Al B. Fuct on several of the larger cannabis boards. If you see an Al B Fuct elsewhere, chances are it's me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I stared them in small 1.5" cubes and then transplanted them into the 3" cubes. The reason i put them in the 3" cubes is because if something ever goes wrong with my pump or a power outage, they will hold enough nutes to hopefully keep them alive until the problem is discovered. The 3" cubes also give them a bit more stability and the 1.5" cubes do not hold that much moisture. Will salts build up with the cubes being right above the flood level and will in need to flush by handwatering ?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 6, 2008)

stickyicky77 said:


> I stared them in small 1.5" cubes and then transplanted them into the 3" cubes. The reason i put them in the 3" cubes is because if something ever goes wrong with my pump or a power outage, they will hold enough nutes to hopefully keep them alive until the problem is discovered. The 3" cubes also give them a bit more stability and the 1.5" cubes do not hold that much moisture.


OK, I see what you're up to. However, if your rockwool ends up below the flood level, you'll have to flood it like a pot of RW floc ie 1x/day. You won't be able to flood as often as when you are flooding only roots in pellets. 

If you put your RW above the floodline, once the roots are in the pellets, they can be flooded 3x day or more.



> Will salts build up with the cubes being right above the flood level and will in need to flush by handwatering ?


You should have about 25mm of always dry pellets above the floodline. This will reduce the direct water evaporation from the damp pellets below them. Evaporation reduction, keeping the pellets damp, will reduce the accumulation of crystallised nute salts at that line. 

However, the accumulation of nute salts at that level isn't really worrying- your roots will be seeking the bottom of the pot. They won't really care what's going on a couple inches above them.


----------



## Wesley1Pipes (May 7, 2008)

Hey Al I've read your pros and cons on rockwool+hydroton vs fytocell+rockwool but was wondering which you would use in a small sog op??? I want to use fytocell but will have to order it online. I've been growing oh about 3 weeks and learned about fytocell from you but when I inquired about it at my local hydro shop they hadn't even heard of it. Basically, is it worth it to order it online?


----------



## Mrgrow626 (May 7, 2008)

Hey Al B i decided instead of hydrotonrocks im going to use those mini RW cubes as my medium, And put the clones straight into the cubes from my aero cloner. 
How often do you think i should flood with them? And since i dont have a big RW cube can i flood to the top of the tray? Thanks


----------



## stamb (May 7, 2008)

subscribe...


----------



## rdgx34 (May 7, 2008)

Hi Al 

I went to the store and they told me the batwing reflector cant be cooled is that true?


----------



## cmak40 (May 7, 2008)

THE WING BY ITSELF CANNOT BE COOLED!!! you buy that (if the price is rite!) then buy a cooltube and attach that to the cooltube...


----------



## DrGreenFinger (May 7, 2008)

excellent work!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 7, 2008)

Wesley1Pipes said:


> Hey Al I've read your pros and cons on rockwool+hydroton vs fytocell+rockwool but was wondering which you would use in a small sog op??? I want to use fytocell but will have to order it online. I've been growing oh about 3 weeks and learned about fytocell from you but when I inquired about it at my local hydro shop they hadn't even heard of it. Basically, is it worth it to order it online?


I think I'd quickly get tired of having to mail order media. Ask your local hydro shop if they will order you a couple bags of Fytocell. It's not that exxy when you buy it off the shelf, about $30-35 per 100L bag, takes about 2.5-3L per pot. If in the US, ask your local shop contact Fytogreen's USA representative:



> New Age Gardening have been appointed the US Distributor for Fytocell. Their contact details are as follows:
> [email protected], Ph (562) 789 0345, Fax (562) 789 8479


The purpose of the 50mm of rockwool floc I pack in the bottom of each pot is to prevent the Fytocell crumbs from falling out and also to keep the pots from floating. 

There's no reason to use floc in the pot bottoms with pellets. Pellets won't float and can't fall out of common-sized pot drain holes.

If I were you, I might buy a bag of RW floc and some Perlite. Perlite won't (usually) float but it will fall out of the pot drain holes. Packing about 25mm of floc in each pot will keep the Perlite in the pots.



Mrgrow626 said:


> Hey Al B i decided instead of hydrotonrocks im going to use those mini RW cubes as my medium, And put the clones straight into the cubes from my aero cloner.
> How often do you think i should flood with them? And since i dont have a big RW cube can i flood to the top of the tray? Thanks


The mini cubes could be a good alternative. I have not used those, but I suspect the watering schedule will be similar to pots packed only with RW floc, 1x/day for 175mm pots, perhaps 2x/day from wks 4-8. 

Your flood level won't be quite to the top of the tray- the level will stop at the overflow tube height, which is about 50-70mm above the tray floor.

RW is so absorbent that you won't really have to flood to the overflow level to adequately water the stuff. If you set your timer to shut off once the flood level is at about 50mm, that ought to do. 

Use a digital timer on your pump so you can program runtimes in 1 minute increments. Mechanical timers usually don't let you have shorter than 15 minute runtimes.



rdgx34 said:


> Hi Al
> 
> I went to the store and they told me the batwing reflector cant be cooled is that true?


Well, not unless you hang a cooltube from it! 

Print off a copy of these imgs and see if they still think it's impossible! 













I'd think they'd be falling all over themselves to sell you a batwing shade and a reflectorless cooltube to fit to it. 

*Be nice* to your local hydro shop counter people, but consider this- if they _*really*_ had a lot on the ball, do you think they'd be tending the counter in a hydro shop? I'd think they'd be running a productive grow op instead. You find similar numbers of competent BSEEs working the counter at your local Tandy/Shadio Rack...



DrGreenFinger said:


> excellent work!


Thanks for that.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 7, 2008)

hey al i was wondering i saw the hose you used for your cool tube i got that one on accident instead of the insulated softer one, i was wondering does that one you have not get to hot? im gonna hook it up now i see you have it haha well lemme now bro


peace


----------



## cmak40 (May 7, 2008)

i have the same along with as much HARD STRAIGHT pipe as possble for my tubes and the air coming out when 2 600s and 1 1000 are on is 31.7'C. the duct and cooltube themselves do not get that hot. i can touch my cooltube with the 1000 heated up and its just maybe above warm to the touch(almost hotter 6"away) and the duct doesnt even get warm. i think al has a pik of himself touching his hot cooltubed 1000 chek it


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 7, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> hey al i was wondering i saw the hose you used for your cool tube i got that one on accident instead of the insulated softer one, i was wondering does that one you have not get to hot? im gonna hook it up now i see you have it haha well lemme now bro


The air going through my cooltubes never really gets all that hot. My pair of cooltubes with 1000HPS are mounted in series. The exhaust from each cooltube is about 6C higher than the intake, so if the intake air is at 18C, the exhaust from cooltube #1 will be about 24C, which is then fed into cooltube #2. When it comes out of cooltube #2, it will be about 30C. 

The warmest I have ever seen the exhaust air is 36C (96.8F), when the intake air was at 24C. That's getting kinda warm but should not bother most plastics used in flexible duct, which should be OK up to about 50-60C (122-140F). 

I bought the aluminium range hood type duct because it was easily available- but it sure wasn't cheap. $40 for a '3m' (expanded length) section. Unexpanded, it's about 1.8m. 

It does not tolerate frequent flexing well if it has been stretched out/expanded. It can be moved/flexed quite a lot with no cracking or breakage if not stretched out. I used unexpanded, full lengths of the stuff for the input run to CT#1 and from the outlet of CT#2 but an expanded length between them as I expected to move both lights up and down pretty much together. This was a mistake- I should have used an unexpanded length between the tubes to permit motion of each lamp independently without stressing that piece. I could have done the inlet and exhaust runs with one full piece if I had stretched it out, but I think it would have torn or cracked at the hoseclamp points with frequent vertical height adjustments if I had. 

In the long run, the aluminium range hood duct, if not stretched out, will outlast the plastic flexiduct, which I suspect isn't made of UV stabilised plastics- why would it be? It's not intended for outdoor use.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 7, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i have the same along with as much HARD STRAIGHT pipe as possble for my tubes and the air coming out when 2 600s and 1 1000 are on is 31.7'C. the duct and cooltube themselves do not get that hot. i can touch my cooltube with the 1000 heated up and its just maybe above warm to the touch(almost hotter 6"away) and the duct doesnt even get warm.


Yep, that's the way to do it. The PVC pipe or proper galvanised steel air ducting will have much less flow resistance than any sort of flexible duct. Downside is it's BLOODY expensive. 150mm dia might be hard to get at some local hdwe shops, but it's around, certainly at megahdwe shops and trade supply houses. 

It's worth noting that plastic flexiduct is the most flow resistant, particularly if it its not pulled out taut. 



> i think al has a pik of himself touching his hot cooltubed 1000 chek it


yep, this one is from pre-installation tests on the garage floor, before I had cut out the cooltubes' in-built reflectors.







If your ducting system has insufficient flow, due either to a wimpy blower or too long a duct for the sort of fan used (use a centrif instead of an axial blower for lengths much more than about 6-7m or with several 90 bends), the cooltube will become warm to the touch. 

If the glass is allowed to get warm, heat will transfer by convection into the growroom air, defeating the purpose.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 7, 2008)

hell ya im going to get a centrifig fan in a couple days.. is this one u think good or recommend a better one?? and this is pretty much what my set up is gonna look like except with out those bootleg milk cartons haha

also i wanna see some pics of some gooood chronic you have, if u have any pics haha heres some i harvested 3 weeks ago or so.

later


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (May 7, 2008)

You don't think R/O is really important? Should I just use my cities water with the ph adjusted?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 7, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> hell ya im going to get a centrifig fan in a couple days.. is this one u think good or recommend a better one?? and this is pretty much what my set up is gonna look like except with out those bootleg milk cartons haha


Best centrif blower I know of is the 250mm Spectrum Customline C250L. Dead quiet yet shifts 280L/sec (bout 600CFM) with a 250W motor. Good value for money, about AUD$211. This is the low flow, low noise version of the 480W monster C250H which moves a wind-tunnel-like 420L/sec (890CFM).

I think you're going to want to reconsider your arrangement. You'll want a separate cooltube blower and room air exhaust fan, as such:



If you use the main exhaust to run the cooltube, it cannot be run on a thermostat. Cooltubes require constant airflow during lights on plus about 15 mins after lights-off to cool down the lamps and sockets. The cooltube fan will need its own timer, synced to lights-on times, plus 15 mins. 

If your main exhaust is used to run the cooltube and thus has to run constantly, you have no control over room air temp. Room airmass will be whatever the intake air temp is, plus a couple degrees C. 



> also i wanna see some pics of some gooood chronic you have, if u have any pics haha heres some i harvested 3 weeks ago or so.


How about a pic of your ordinary, average SoG budstalk being manicured? 



About an oz on the hoof, as it were. 



hornedfrog2000 said:


> You don't think R/O is really important? Should I just use my cities water with the ph adjusted?


You bet. Drinking water from modern municipal reticulation systems is just fine for growing plants. 

Chlorination and fluoridation as added to municipal water supplies will not harm plants. Chlorination in fact is the indoor grower's friend. It will suppress pathogens while the water is in the pipes coming to you and will also suppress them in your tanks for a day or two until the chlorine evaporates. After that, unless you add a pathogen suppressor like H2O2, you have a nice big tank of yummy nutrient soup that all plants, including fungi & algae, will happily eat- or live in. 

Some have argued that chlorination kills beneficial bacteria in soils. That may well be possible to some degree, but a) there's ideally no bacteria at all in a recirculating hydro op and b) my all organic veg patch out the back yielded a double trunked, 12ft tall cherry tomato plant which produced over 450 fruit this last season, mainly on chlorinated tapwater from the garden hose. 


_(yep, it's ONE plant...)_

If it's safe to drink, it will grow fine plants.


----------



## GoodFriend (May 7, 2008)

you ever plan on changing from the st#4? don't you like a little variety for your personal smoke?

thats a pretty spear you got on that bucket there!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 7, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> you ever plan on changing from the st#4? don't you like a little variety for your personal smoke?


I used to run a number of different strains, but I pared it down to the best compromise of buzz, flavour & total weight production. ST4 just kicks the ass off everything in every way except for the production from clearly mutant monster strains like LUI & Skunk #1. ST4 makes about 85-90% of those characters' yields, though. 

I have never gotten tired of ST4, but I think I would like another copy of White Widow just cos it's tasty as fuck. Might like to play with some citrusy sativas to have a lighter headbuzz sort for some occasions. 

In general though, my op is streamlined for production. Multiple strains, while fun, cause problems in the production line system, especially with plants that develop different statures. I have space only for 10 mums and I'd never want to keep less than 2 of a strain going at any given time. If I add a strain, that leaves 8 spots for ST4. I can run my 30 cuts every 2 wks on 6 plants, but must always have 6 ready to cut. 2 spots are for replacement mums that are vegging up from clones. I could add 1 strain and not hurt my rotation process. 



> thats a pretty spear you got on that bucket there!


innit.  

That's the usual when things are going well.


----------



## saine420 (May 7, 2008)

I just wanted to take a second and tell you I am a big fan of all your work and I appreciate all the time you spend sharing your knowledge. Your wisdom has givin me a whole other way of seeing the way I ran things and to be honest has made my life a whole lot easier in many ways, thanks again..


----------



## GoodFriend (May 7, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I used to run a number of different strains, but I pared it down to the best compromise of buzz, flavour & total weight production. ST4 just kicks the ass off everything in every way except for the production from clearly mutant monster strains like LUI & Skunk #1. ST4 makes about 85-90% of those characters' yields, though.
> 
> I have never gotten tired of ST4, but I think I would like another copy of White Widow just cos it's tasty as fuck. Might like to play with *some citrusy sativas* to have a lighter headbuzz sort for some occasions.
> 
> ...


let me know...
i'm quite the fan of sativa's, and have a few nice crosses... if you still have my email you know where you can catch me at...


i was looking at some pictures of some ST3 done on another forum, and i was suprised to see how different the buds looked than yours... different ops and all, but i would have thought that the breeders line would have been a bit more similar between versions... 

maybe i'll have to look into what the differences breeding wise are and i'll prolly find my answer...


----------



## MajesticWhelk (May 7, 2008)

Could we see some close ups of your bud ready to smoke?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 7, 2008)

saine420 said:


> I just wanted to take a second and tell you I am a big fan of all your work and I appreciate all the time you spend sharing your knowledge. Your wisdom has givin me a whole other way of seeing the way I ran things and to be honest has made my life a whole lot easier in many ways, thanks again..


 Thanks for that. 



lumberjack_ian said:


> let me know...
> i was looking at some pictures of some ST3 done on another forum, and i was suprised to see how different the buds looked than yours... different ops and all, but i would have thought that the breeders line would have been a bit more similar between versions...


The only info I have about ST3 is that it had a mould resistance problem. 

If you have a link to that ST3 grow, I'd like a peek. 



MajesticWhelk said:


> Could we see some close ups of your bud ready to smoke?


OK 



close enough?


----------



## MajesticWhelk (May 7, 2008)

That's some beautiful bud. I bet it smokes as good as it looks.


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 7, 2008)

al b fuct you are the greatest! I just bought 2 darkrooms one is 7'10x7'10 for flowering and one thats 2'5x2'5 for the mother plants.

I want to do your grow setup as close as possible 
What do you suggest i put in them? Or if you can draw a small picture on how i should set it up. I just have no idea this is my first grow. 
THANK YOU


----------



## GoodFriend (May 8, 2008)

sent ya an email buddy... that buds quite pretty up close!


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 8, 2008)

Sorry I dont think i was specific enough, I was wondering what size Fan you think I should use and what size filter and how i should ventalate the hut. Thank you


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 8, 2008)

MajesticWhelk said:


> That's some beautiful bud. I bet it smokes as good as it looks.


Thanks. As you might expect, ST4 has a sweet, perfumey flavour. Very smooth when you have got the moisture content right, a real joy in a big fat jay. My circle has been smoking it for the last 6 years and all still love it. Can't grow enough of ST4, ppl always come back for more. A real success for a production grow and a damn nice smoke, too. Hard to get as beans these days, I hear. I sprouted these in 2002 and have been propagating by cuttings since. 



firsttimegrowerr said:


> al b fuct you are the greatest! I just bought 2 darkrooms one is 7'10x7'10 for flowering and one thats 2'5x2'5 for the mother plants.
> 
> I want to do your grow setup as close as possible
> What do you suggest i put in them? Or if you can draw a small picture on how i should set it up. I just have no idea this is my first grow.
> THANK YOU


Thanks, ftg. Hang around here, catch up reading this thread in its entirety if you can, we'll bust ya cherry. 

Start small, but not so small you smoke your entire production in a week. SoG relies on a large number of small plants, plan on 1/4-1/2oz per budstalk in the beginning of a grower's learning curve. For a first op, you might do a single 900mm x 900mm (3'x3') flood tray & a 400HPS for flowering, perhaps a 300mm x 1500mm (1'x3.5)' tray with a 175MH or 250 HPS for mums. 

Ventilation is job 1. Pick a space that can easily be ventilated, either by dumping your waste air into an attic, crawlspace, or less desirably, out a window. Exhaust air must not be easily drawn back into the op. 

Cooltubes are a great investment but between duct, blower, reflector and cooltube, isn't hard to wrap up a cpl $100 in them. Cooltubes vastly improved temp stability in my op. Stays at 25C +/- 1C at all times now. If you have the dough, get 'em now. If not, plan the op to suit cooltubes and duct installation later on. 

You also need a clonebox, Enigma modded up an old bookcase with some pandafilm, fluoro lighting and presumably a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan & heatmat as a clonebox. Sounds a beaut. 

Let me know when you have all that done, k? 



firsttimegrowerr said:


> Sorry I dont think i was specific enough, I was wondering what size Fan you think I should use and what size filter and how i should ventalate the hut. Thank you


Your room exhaust blower in a cooltubed room should be able to shift the room's air volume in about 3 minutes. A 500cu ft room thus needs a roughly 170CFM fan (500cu ft / 3minutes = 166.67CFM),or more. You can use passive intake, with no intake blower, or you can use an axial blower rated about 80-90% of the exhaust blower's CFM rating.This keeps the room at slightly negative pressure, sucks air into the room via small gaps in construction instead of allowing scents to escape, were the intake blower bigger than the exhaust. 

The cooltube will use a typical 150mm axial (most are about 200CFM) if your duct is under about 6-7m long and has only a couple of 90 bends. Long, sweeping bends are better than sharp ones in duct lines.

If you're going to use a carbon filter, you will need to use a centrifugal blower for the exhaust. Axials won't do the job pushing air into a high static pressure caused by the obstruction of the carbon filter. Match the filter to the flow rate of the blower. 

Should be arranged a bit like this:


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 8, 2008)

wow you really are the greatest! haha
I'll try to catch up on the thread and ill post again when i have my setup ready. 
thanks!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 8, 2008)

Thanks, ftg. I hope I addressed your question adequately.


----------



## kwantiko (May 8, 2008)

What a thread!

Al, my question is, if you were to grow sativas, how would you go about it? I know SOG favors indica dominant plants, but i was wondering, what method you would employ if you "had" to grow a sativa.

I will be emulating your setup for my indica plants, blueberry, mazar and granddady purple.

But i have a OG Kush/S.A.G.E mother that i would love to grow.

Any info is greatly appreciated.


----------



## knowledge seeker (May 8, 2008)

hey al I have just got the op running to exact scale of yours I can't thank you enough for the tutilage i have recieved, My clones are growing into mums so i can take the large amount of cuttings off of them , how do you get the moms ready for the large cuttings you take off of them do you prune top ect. I have read this post a couple of times and I apologize if this question slipped by me thanks seeker


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (May 8, 2008)

Where do you even find ST#4? I have found some 1, 2, and 3 I think, but not the 4...


----------



## MajesticWhelk (May 8, 2008)

Hey Al,

I just read your "vacation watering system" thread and I was wondering...

Do you use one slacker tank for all four regular reservoirs? And if so, do you have different pumps for each individual float valve in each rez?

I'm trying to incorporate this idea into my growroom plans. Thanks for the help!


----------



## cmak40 (May 8, 2008)

just a thought but maybe just up each tray to 3 weeks flower since most sativas take 10-14 weeks...



> What a thread
> 
> Al, my question is, if you were to grow sativas, how would you go about it? I know SOG favors indica dominant plants, but i was wondering, what method you would employ if you "had" to grow a sativa.
> 
> ...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 9, 2008)

Thanks to all for all the thanks. 



kwantiko said:


> Al, my question is, if you were to grow sativas, how would you go about it?


 If they were particularly weedy & thin sorts, I might put 2 in each pot. Still zero veg time post clones rooting. 



knowledge seeker said:


> how do you get the moms ready for the large cuttings you take off of them do you prune top ect.


 Yep, clones which will be mums get their growing tips snipped when they get put in the vegging area. Do this every week for the first 3 weeks they're vegging. This will force growth to divide so to provide several thick mainstems in a couple more weeks. They're ready to use when they have some stems bigger than 5mm. They'll be fairly tall, 18-24"- and you will cut most of that RIGHT back each time you do cuts. 


_ready for cuttings.............................. and after a batch. 
Looks severe- ain't. All comes back in 14 days. _

After doing a pass of cuttings from the mums, snip the growing tips on all branches. This will force them to get thicker for your next pass.



hornedfrog2000 said:


> Where do you even find ST#4? I have found some 1, 2, and 3 I think, but not the 4...


 Damifino. I got the beans back in 2002 from Gypsy, dunno who has the real deal anymore.



MajesticWhelk said:


> Hey Al,
> Do you use one slacker tank for all four regular reservoirs? And if so, do you have different pumps for each individual float valve in each rez?


I use a single tank which is fed by the dehumidifier. This catch tank is mounted up on blocks, above the waterlines of the rez tanks. Water feeds by gravity to the rez tanks via sections of garden hose and tee fittings. No pump needed. 

Each rez has a float valve to set the max level. But how, you say, do you keep the rez tanks from overflowing when the trays are being flooded? The water level in the rez tanks drops to about 2/3 when flooding trays- if you don't control _when_ the catch tank refills the res tanks, it would refill them while trays were being flooded- and when the flood cycle finished, 1/3 of your tank volume would be on the floor... bad rice. 

Wot to do? Simple! Put a lawn irrigation timer valve on the dehumidifier catch tank. Program it to open for about 10-15 mins at a time when the trays are known to have drained back fully into their respective reservoirs, roughly an hour after each flood cycle. Mine is battery operated and runs for weeks on a pair of AA Duracells.


----------



## insanestang4life (May 9, 2008)

Hey, al how deep are your trays?


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 9, 2008)

Hey Al i forgot to ask what size pots and what nutes do you use for your mother plants? 
Im getting ready to buy all my equipment today. Thanks!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 9, 2008)

insanestang4life said:


> Hey, al how deep are your trays?


The overflow tube depth is about 75mm.



firsttimegrowerr said:


> Hey Al i forgot to ask what size pots and what nutes do you use for your mother plants?
> Im getting ready to buy all my equipment today. Thanks!


Mums run on Canna Vega, 1500-1800ppm @ 5.8, under a 400HPS on 24/0. They live in 175mm pots of 100% rockwool floc (works better for the mums than Fytocell for some reason) in a roughly 1.5' x 3' flood tray (I otta measure that), supplied by a ~50L tank. Could do with a bigger tank. Advanced mums are hugely thirsty, especially when they are very large, just before a pass of cuttings, and the mum tank requires frequent top-up.


----------



## cmak40 (May 9, 2008)

do you trim back ANY fan leaves at all when pruning a new mom for more growth or just the topping and node pruning?


----------



## kwantiko (May 9, 2008)

2 in each pot? why?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 9, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> do you trim back ANY fan leaves at all when pruning a new mom for more growth or just the topping and node pruning?


Lower fan leaves tend to get yellowy from lack of light when there's a lot of veg mass above them. I take those off as part of biweekly maintenance after taking a batch of cuttings. 



kwantiko said:


> 2 in each pot? why?


Pure sativas are really rather wimpy plants. They tend to have a lot of internodal space and just not as much foliage as the characteristic squat, dense pure indica types. Leaf blades are thinner and leaves are generally smaller on pure sativas. These are the characters that we use to define the difference between these types. The lower foliar density would permit more plants per sq ft. Considering my experience with some nearly pure landrace sativas, I think that doubling the planting density could work. Would have to try it to be sure, tho. Would be highly dependent upon the strain.

Keep in mind that most strains available these days are not purebred but rather hybrids of sativas and indicas, mainly favouring indica characters for their high production of budmass and shorter flowering duration.


----------



## insanestang4life (May 9, 2008)

Ok al I know you get tons of these question but, are your pots 7 175mm deep from the top to the bottom? And i meant from the top lip to the bottom of your tray how deep was it?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 9, 2008)

The trays or the pots?


----------



## kwantiko (May 9, 2008)

i have one plant, og kush/s.a.g.e and while even though it is fairly indica dominant, the fact that it has sativa genetics shows. it gtows tall and lanky. but it is very resillient, it will stand up to anything.

I would really love to grow this plant in a SOG.

Do you think it can be done?


----------



## insanestang4life (May 9, 2008)

On both the tray and the pots!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 9, 2008)

kwantiko said:


> Do you think it can be done?


Oh, sure, you can grow any strain in SoG. That's not a problem. When you start mixing strains, the stature difference can be problematic. Indicas are normally used because they produce best in the SoG environment. 



insanestang4life said:


> On both the tray and the pots!


The pots are 175mm top dia, 130mm bottom dia and 175mm tall. The trays are 820mm x 820mm x 100mm deep. The overflow tube is 75mm tall.


----------



## PlasmaRadio (May 10, 2008)

I didn't recognize you with you're new avatar. I was kinda freakin' out there for a second.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2008)

Yep, I'm using that one on other pot boards, thought I'd standardise. 

Just so you know, I came by it honestly! I stole it from an anti-drug website and built it into an animated GIF.  At least someone's great stoner art is being used in a positive way.


----------



## rifishman (May 10, 2008)

Hey AlB...great post BTW.  

Quick question on the clone chamber. Do you have a door or cover on the front of the unit after the clones go into it?


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 10, 2008)

hey al...just a quickie, my grow room is 8'x14' and i have a window unit ac in the room so i was wondering if i still needed other outside intake fans or does the a.c. negate the need for them. exhaust etc...i got it! but this stupid question is stumpin me.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2008)

rifishman said:


> Quick question on the clone chamber. Do you have a door or cover on the front of the unit after the clones go into it?


 Yes, it has a door. 



bugsrnme said:


> hey al...just a quickie, my grow room is 8'x14' and i have a window unit ac in the room so i was wondering if i still needed other outside intake fans or does the a.c. negate the need for them. exhaust etc...i got it! but this stupid question is stumpin me.


Aircon will handle your temp control & humidity (lucky you!). However, constantly recycling a sealed room's airmass will deplete it of CO2. You need to find a way to bring in CO2, either from a ventilation system that will periodically vent the room to bring in atmospheric air with more CO2 or to introduce it with a tank, regulator and metering device.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 10, 2008)

aright al i also have a question, when u cut your clones from your mom and put them in flowering do u put them straight under or off to the side for a day ?? bc i have mine under 3 100w flurcent lights and i think i caused alot of stress to the clone putting it straight under my 1000 w, should i ease them under the 1000w for a couple days or will it not matter? thanks




later


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> aright al i also have a question, when u cut your clones from your mom and put them in flowering do u put them straight under or off to the side for a day ??


Clones which have a good spray of roots go straight in to tray1 in the flowering area, which is sharing a 1000HPS with tray2. The plants in tray2 are 2-4wks into flowering and are fairly tall, about 750mm, not far from the finishing height. The light is spaced about 400mm away from the nearest leaves, which are on plants in tray2. 

Naturally, the clones being introduced to tray1 are only about 200-225mm tall. This means that the spacing from lamp to leaf for plants in tray1 is around 900mm. Clones are quite happy with being under a 1000 with this much spacing from lamp to leaf.


----------



## Mrgrow626 (May 10, 2008)

Hey al, Do you use co2? 
Is it worth it for SOG?


----------



## cmak40 (May 10, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> aright al i also have a question, when u cut your clones from your mom and put them in flowering do u put them straight under or off to the side for a day ?? bc i have mine under 3 100w flurcent lights and i think i caused alot of stress to the clone putting it straight under my 1000 w, should i ease them under the 1000w for a couple days or will it not matter? thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Al B. Fuct said:


> Clones which have a good spray of roots go straight in to tray1 in the flowering area, which is sharing a 1000HPS with tray2. The plants in tray2 are 2-4wks into flowering and are fairly tall, about 750mm, not far from the finishing height. The light is spaced about 400mm away from the nearest leaves, which are on plants in tray2.
> 
> Naturally, the clones being introduced to tray1 are only about 200-225mm tall. This means that the spacing from lamp to leaf for plants in tray1 is around 900mm. Clones are quite happy with being under a 1000 with this much spacing from lamp to leaf.


i think he means right after the cut al...if you do then no his go under a couple 4 foot florescents for 10-14 days for the roots to set then they go under his 1000 in tray 1 (pretty close al?)

also al do the measurements on the nute we buy matter or do we go by ppm for hydro? sorry if dumb ? if i follow my directions i get about 800 ppm or does it depend on the nute itself?


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 10, 2008)

ya jus like cmak said thanks for clearing up i appreciate it


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 10, 2008)

Mrgrow626 said:


> Hey al, Do you use co2?
> Is it worth it for SOG?


 No, I don't use CO2. The benefits can be great, particularly in SoG, but setting it up properly costs about $2000-2500. By 'properly' I mean an E size cylinder & rental, regulator, an automatic measurement and application device and aircon. 



cmak40 said:


> i think he means right after the cut al...if you do then no his go under a couple 4 foot florescents for 10-14 days for the roots to set then they go under his 1000 in tray 1 (pretty close al?)


Well, my clonebox has 3x 24" twin tube fluoro light fixtures, if that's the question. The clones stay in the clonebox until they set root. 


> also al do the measurements on the nute we buy matter or do we go by ppm for hydro? sorry if dumb ? if i follow my directions i get about 800 ppm or does it depend on the nute itself?


All nute makers will suggest different strengths. Yes- you'll measure with a meter and set the ppm you need. I use 1400ppm on flowering, 1500-1800 for the mums.


----------



## cmak40 (May 10, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> All nute makers will suggest different strengths. Yes- you'll measure with a meter and set the ppm you need. I use 1400ppm on flowering, 1500-1800 for the mums.


thanx much appreciated, now i gotta get a new ppm tester i accidentally bought one that only goes to 999ppm oh well whats another $100 now that im this far in.


----------



## daddychrisg (May 10, 2008)

Hey Al quick question, can you tell me how to grow my weed?


----------



## BCSKing (May 10, 2008)

wow Al B. Fuct your setup looks awsome I hope once I get more money I can start to build my setup better then what it is right now


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 11, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> Hey Al quick question, can you tell me how to grow my weed?


 You should use the Vague Method developed by Stoney McDoper. 


Stoney McDoper said:


> like plant your seeds or something, mabey. Then bust some l33t w33d b4R0n moves on its ass. Use lites. Make sher u put on at leest a pownd of Osmocoat. Wait a lot. Then u can smoke yor budz.


----------



## cmak40 (May 11, 2008)

al what is EC compared to ppm?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 11, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> al what is EC compared to ppm?


EC (electrical conductivity) is an arbitrary number related to the electrical resistance of a nutrient solution, as opposed to PPM (parts per million), which gives you a more realistic idea of the actual content of ionic compounds (salts of certain nutrient elements such as N, P & K) in an aqueous solution. 

1.0EC = 700ppm (usually).


----------



## butterflykisses (May 11, 2008)

hey al i asked you awhile back what you thought of the canna boost have you had a chance to use it yet? i tried it on 6 plants and they yeilded apx 10gm more and the main stems were apx 5mm larger in dia. just wanted to know what u thought. i ran out and wasnt sure if i wanted to make the 400 dollar investment. ill send u some if youll try it. if u havent already.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 11, 2008)

butterflykisses said:


> hey al i asked you awhile back what you thought of the canna boost have you had a chance to use it yet? i tried it on 6 plants and they yeilded apx 10gm more and the main stems were apx 5mm larger in dia. just wanted to know what u thought. i ran out and wasnt sure if i wanted to make the 400 dollar investment. ill send u some if youll try it. if u havent already.


Nope, haven't tried it. Glad it worked out for you.

I'd like to know how much your production increased expressed as a percentage. '6 plants' is pretty arbitrary as plant sizes in various grow ops vary so much. 10g on a large plant that yields a few oz isn't significant. 10g on one of my deliberately small SoG style plants, which normally yield about 1-1.25oz per plant, could be very significant.

Yep- it's incredibly expensive stuff. My local prices are around $AUD60 for 250ml. Canna's recommended dosage rate for Boost is 2-4ml/L. Presuming 3ml/L, with my 125L tanks, that's 375ml per application (1.5 x 250ml bottles), per each of my 4 tanks, or $75 worth of the stuff each time I mix up a tank. 4 tanks- $300. I dump, clean and mix new tanks twice a month, so there's $600/mo on Canna Boost. That's about _*3.5x more*_ than I spend each month on electricity, my greatest input cost at present. 

If I could be guaranteed that Canna Boost would increase my op's output by 22%, increasing output by 10oz per month, then it would pay for itself and return a tidy profit. 

However, Canna have priced themselves out of the experimentation area. I would need an absolute guarantee that the stuff works before I'd go drop $600/mo on it. 

Like with everything else they sell, Canna have gone way overboard on their pricing. If I could not buy Canna nutes at wholesale prices, I would not use them. 

When I apply my extended logic filter to this, in a productive grow op where conditions are always right, it is really rather hard to make double digit percentage improvements in output, by any means. 22% would be a major leap. Magic sauce makers often put big claims. I want to see this stuff making huge gains for others before I buy any.


----------



## cmak40 (May 11, 2008)

what would you use if you didnt use canna? would you experiment or do you have something in mind?

The Growing Edge Community - Is there a way to convert from ppm to EC? and is basically what youre saying? do you think a ppm meter or ec tester or the hanna ph/ppm/ec tester its expensive but fuk it does all the things i hear about lol. and my nutes chart has ec on it rather than ppm thats why my original question arose...should prob just stick to the chart eh?

EC or PPM - Hydroponics Forum

sorry i also found this...could this conversion be a good way for people that dont know or dont have ec testers you think?


----------



## SaRaNaC (May 11, 2008)

al where did u get the glass or pyrex for the cool tube mod? i cant find it anywhere


----------



## Sativa's Son (May 11, 2008)

Hey al b fuct. I saw in hightimes a guy using light movers. Did you ever think of that?


----------



## hornedfrog2000 (May 12, 2008)

The pyrex tube is on ebay. fyi some kind of french bread baking thing.

Al, I don't think anyone has really asked this, but do you have neighbors close by? The reason I ask is I'm pretty paranoid about the smell, and was wondering if you can smell your setup say if someone was at your front door. Thanks again.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 12, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> what would you use if you didnt use canna? would you experiment or do you have something in mind?


 I'd have to experiment because I don't actually have any others in mind. 



> and is basically what youre saying? do you think a ppm meter or ec tester or the hanna ph/ppm/ec tester its expensive but fuk it does all the things i hear about lol. and my nutes chart has ec on it rather than ppm thats why my original question arose...should prob just stick to the chart eh?


 I'm not fond of integrated pH+EC/PPM meters. pH meter electrodes last only 2 years- if the electrode is not user replaceable, you either have to send the meter off for service or buy a new one. Better to have separate ph & nute meters. I'm even less fond of Hanna meters. The don't have a reputation for reliability. I've had a Bluelab Truncheon nute meter in service for 7 years and a Eutech Waterproof pHScan1 for about 6. 

Stick to what chart?



> sorry i also found this...could this conversion be a good way for people that dont know or dont have ec testers you think?


 You *must* have pH & nute meters. No getting out of it, go buy some. 



SaRaNaC said:


> al where did u get the glass or pyrex for the cool tube mod? i cant find it anywhere


 I did not build my cooltubes, bought them off the shelf at Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe. Some folks have homemade them out of Pyrex Bake-A-Round tubes. Search Bake-A-Round on this board & you will surely find someone who has made some up.



Sativa's Son said:


> Hey al b fuct. I saw in hightimes a guy using light movers. Did you ever think of that?


I have no need for light movers in my op. 

If I had more space to illuminate than my lights could cover, I'd get more lights. Light movers are a band-aid. They even out growth a bit but they do not increase your luminous output. If you have a 1000HPS (which really should be covering about 20sq ft) on a light mover, trying to cover 40 sq ft, you're only laying down half the lumens per sq ft per hour as the stationary lamp over a 20 sq ft space. Thus, each plant is only getting half the luminous energy in this case. Less luminous energy = lower yields per plant, lower bud density. 

Linear light movers have another problem; plants in the middle of the traverse get more light than plants on the ends. Rotary light movers solve this to some degree, but it's still a bit of a bodge.

If you think you need a light mover, what you really need is more lights- or fewer plants.



hornedfrog2000 said:


> Al, I don't think anyone has really asked this, but do you have neighbors close by? The reason I ask is I'm pretty paranoid about the smell, and was wondering if you can smell your setup say if someone was at your front door. Thanks again.


Solved it. I have killed all my neighbours.  No, kidding, just the nearest ones. 

Seriously, I use UV ozone generators to kill scents. No, you can't smell my op- unless you're inside it.


----------



## PlasmaRadio (May 12, 2008)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> Al, I don't think anyone has really asked this, but do you have neighbors close by? The reason I ask is I'm pretty paranoid about the smell, and was wondering if you can smell your setup say if someone was at your front door.


You should grow a strain with a less distinctive odour, blueberry and Neville's haze spring to mind, but there are many others.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 12, 2008)

PR, to be deadly honest, dope's dope and you should not smell it at all.


----------



## cmak40 (May 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Stick to what chart?
> 
> You *must* have pH & nute meters. No getting out of it, go buy some.


chart for whatever nutes we use...i found mine online and it says my nutes should be at 2000 ec but like i said i was trying to figure a way around that but once again you took the lazy out of me. its cool tho dont be lazy now and i can be lazy later on. thanx again im just gonna price a ppm and ec tester on ebay. i have hanna now but theyve onlyu been in service for a couple mos so i cant exactly vouch for them but ill try something diff.


----------



## PlasmaRadio (May 12, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> PR, to be deadly honest, dope's dope and you should not smell it at all.


Whoa, what? I think I am doing it wrong, my plants smell like... hard to say, exactly what it smells like, but it's a happy plant smell. Sort of a cross between fresh cut hay and lychee blossoms.


----------



## zkt (May 12, 2008)

10 pounds of activated charcoal sittin in a basket under a hepa filter ozone generator. No it doesnt smell much


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 12, 2008)

PlasmaRadio said:


> Sort of a cross between fresh cut hay and lychee blossoms.


If you can smell fresh cut hay and lychee blossoms (WTF?! ) around most houses on your street, that's fine. 

However, grow ops should be TOTALLY inaudible and unsmellable (is that a word? ). Anything that's out of the ordinary is something that will draw the attention of those whose attention should not be drawn.

Don't trust your own nose. You will be around cannabis too much for you to notice scents in small quantity. Borrow a trusted nose when you need to verify whether your scent control is working. You can also use a plant oil-based marker scent you CAN easily smell, like some eucalyptus oil on a bit of cloth, hung near your exhaust blower. Carbon filters or UV ozone generators should kill that scent, too. If you can smell eucalyptus oil, your scent control isn't working.



zkt said:


> 10 pounds of activated charcoal sittin in a basket under a hepa filter ozone generator. No it doesnt smell much


Activated charcoal just sitting in a basket won't be very effective. Need to draw (or push) air through the granules somehow. This is why commercially made carbon filters contain the carbon granules in a hollow cylinder made from a screening material, which can be connected to ducting and a centrifugal blower.

Combination filter/ozone units usually employ a high voltage corona discharge method for generating ozone instead of a UV fluoro tube. If there's no bluish-purple glow coming from the unit, it is a HV corona type.

HV O3 gens create oxides of nitrogen (NOx). NOx mixed with humidity or water creates HNO3 aka nitric acid. This is acid rain on a small scale. HV O3 gens should only be used in your exhaust airstream, never in the airmass with the plants.


----------



## zkt (May 12, 2008)

Well actually it is carefully designed to draw a LOT of air thru the granules and totally solves the problem. Ill take it apart and shoot it sometime.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 12, 2008)

zkt said:


> Well actually it is carefully designed to draw a LOT of air thru the granules and totally solves the problem. Ill take it apart and shoot it sometime.


Coolio. 

Do post pics. Always interesting to see more solutions to a problem.


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 12, 2008)

Hey Al, So you use the same size pots for your mothers and your plants flowering? 
Don't mothers need alot bigger pots to grow?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 13, 2008)

firsttimegrowerr said:


> Hey Al, So you use the same size pots for your mothers and your plants flowering?


yep!



> Don't mothers need alot bigger pots to grow?


nope!


----------



## davedub69 (May 13, 2008)

Al, great thread you got yourself into here!  Thanks for all the great information you have passed onto us! I completley understand your information: do this to a "t" and you get these results! KISS= keep it simple stupid (don't try to change anything, try to make a CLONE of your assebly line). I do have a question about Co2. Do you stay away fromt eh Co2 b/c of not having a/c? Is there a way around not using a/c and using Co2? Does a/c cost that much to run in a small area like yours? Also, would chillers be more effective than traditional a/c untis? soes your strain help with chronic back pain? i have serious back problems from a work related injury? THANKS again for all the PROVEN information! stay red eyed!


----------



## Squeechie (May 13, 2008)

Hey Al, first I'd like to commend you - and all others participating for a very great thread. One of the best books ever written. I've been behind - got busy for a couple weeks - and when i came back i had like 30-40 pages of catching up to do. And so im now im caught up (for now). I had a lot of questions for you, which most have been answered along the way, so now just need some pointers to set me straight. 

First i have 9 moms right now about 3 months old from seed. Im in strickly vegetation stage right now, and not ready to clone or flower right now. I have let them initially grow out to about 22'' (tallest one) and have now trimmed them back twice within the last month. I have noticed that if i were ready to take clones I wouldn't have been able to get too many of them reaching 9" tall. I'd say the average height would be around 6" tall. So question 1 would be what would happen if i started a SOG with 6"-7" tall clones?

Second... Is there something probably wrong if i cannot get consistent clones 9" tall. I can see that most of these moms are bursting with growth, but it seems like because i have not did the early training/pruning it might cost me. Yeh, there is new growth and dividing everywhere, but some shoots take off and grow tall with fat stems, and others just stay whimpy and worthless. Is there something i can do now or do i have to clone it and grow it up proper next time?

Also... I do like the looks of some more than others. Say 5 of them really look like winners. Some are really fast luscious growers, and then there are some with the preflowers down the main stem and heavily on the branch tips. I know that i will eventually have to choose one to be the main donor plant. But at this point, should i just keep them all until flowering, just in case the nice lookers are not the heavy flowers?

Thats all for now, i do have a couple more technical ones concerning ppm, ec, and nutes strength so ill take time to compose them correctly then post them. Thanks Al.


----------



## lawrencex34 (May 13, 2008)

Hey Al, I just picked up 5 clones rooted in RW 
Im going to veg them into my mother plants, Im going to place them in a 6" pot with those little RW cubes. How often do you suggest i flood them? And


----------



## lawrencex34 (May 13, 2008)

Sorry accidentally clicked post,

And should i flood to the top of the RW cube?

Thanks Al


----------



## Squeechie (May 13, 2008)

> 1.0EC = 700ppm (usually).


So im going to assume that your using a multiplier of 700.
The reason I ask is because after scouring thru GH FAQs, i concluded that they are using a factor of 500 to arrive at the ppm. Then the ppm on their charts and feeding schedule made sense somewhat , then i got confused, then it made sense, now i dont know.... so ill ask you.

Now if i test my pipe water i usually get a reading between 150-180. One day i got a reading of about 220. Then when i realized GH uses x500 , i set my meter to x500(.5 on meter), and my pipe water reading backed away from hardwater range. Got it now right? Yeh right.
But I thought, if Al B. is using a x500 meter at 1400ppm, then that would be a 1900+ ppm if i set my meter back to x700.... just dont sound right.

So, is 1.0EC = 700ppm the factor that i should be using cause im starting to lean back to that direction now?

Thanks again. (One more coming up in a minute, kinda builds on this one)


----------



## kwantiko (May 13, 2008)

al, what do you do with all the trim?

do you extract in any way (hash, oil, butter....)?

or do you just toss it?


----------



## RisingStock (May 13, 2008)

Hey Al.....wondered if I might benefit from your wisdom?

Suffering from nutrient lockout due to broken pH meter. (Damn Hanna meters)...SoG, DWC, bubble system. 1 set of 6 plants in bloom, 1 set of 3 as Moms. pH meter read 5.7, but can't POSSIBLY be correct. (I've ordered a new one)

Pics*https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-pics/index.php?u=35902

Any advice would be appreciated. Specifically, what to do now. (Sitting in tap water w/pH about 7.6-I THINK, no chems of any kind, at the moment.)

By the way, I live in an area where it's difficult to get chemicals, but I do have pH up/down and Flora Nova nutes. (also in Pics*). Speaking of the pHup/down, in the winter just a touch was sufficient, lately it takes A LOT.(Which led me to believe the pH meter was broke...that and the fact it read 5.7 but with barley ANY nutes looked like Pics*)

Thanks........ (sob)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 13, 2008)

davedub69 said:


> Al, great thread you got yourself into here!  Thanks for all the great information you have passed onto us!


 Thanks.  



> I completley understand your information: do this to a "t" and you get these results! KISS= keep it simple stupid (don't try to change anything, try to make a CLONE of your assebly line).


 Yep, that's the nut. Thanks for your close attention to the thread. 



> I do have a question about Co2. Do you stay away fromt eh Co2 b/c of not having a/c?


 Mostly. I now have the AC mains capacity to run aircon if I want to, where I didn't in previous locations. Also, the setup costs for CO2 are just tremendous. Good CO2 controllers which automatically dose based upon a built in CO2 concentration meter reading are the shit - and usually over a $grand. It is not hard to drop $2-3000 properly setting up an op for CO2. 



> Is there a way around not using a/c and using Co2?


 Not really. If you control the room temp with an exhaust blower, every time it kicks on, your CO2 goes out the exhaust line. Cooltubes (with a closed air circuit- takes air from outside the grow room airmass and dumps warm air also outside the room's airmass) will cause a thermostatically controlled exhaust blower to run a lot less often, but again, every time it runs, out goes your ga$.



> Does a/c cost that much to run in a small area like yours?


 An a/c unit that can cool an op like mine with a pair of 1000s, even though it has cooltubes, will pretty easily cost about as much as a 600 or 1000HPS. Cooltubes will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the amt of time the a/c unit runs, but a roughly 10000-12000 BTU unit still would be required, good for about 800-1000W. 



> Also, would chillers be more effective than traditional a/c untis?


 What's a chiller?



> soes your strain help with chronic back pain?


 Most primarily indica strains are good for back pain. 



Squeechie said:


> So question 1 would be what would happen if i started a SOG with 6"-7" tall clones?


 Should be OK, they will finish up a bit shorter than taller clones. The biggest concern is the thickness of the stems you are getting off your mums. Thicker is better. 



> Is there something i can do now or do i have to clone it and grow it up proper next time?


 If you have an underperforming mum, replace it with a good clone as soon as you can. 


> should i just keep them all until flowering, just in case the nice lookers are not the heavy flowers?


 Keep vegging the mums you have now until you are sure that the plants you've put in to flower are taking off OK. Get a couple spare clones that look good into the veg area soon to get them started on vegging up to replace the slackers. 



lawrencex34 said:


> Hey Al, I just picked up 5 clones rooted in RW
> Im going to veg them into my mother plants, Im going to place them in a 6" pot with those little RW cubes. How often do you suggest i flood them? And should i flood to the top of the RW cube?


Treat pots of mini RW cubes like pots of RW floc. Flood 1x/day only to about 50-75mm deep then drain immediately. Depends on your pump as to how long that will take, but you will probably want to have a digital timer as they allow for single minute increments in programming, rather than the minimum 15 min runtimes of most mechanical timers. Sufficient water will wick up into the RW to keep thing moving. Don't flood any higher than about 75mm. 



Squeechie said:


> But I thought, if Al B. is using a x500 meter at 1400ppm, then that would be a 1900+ ppm if i set my meter back to x700.... just dont sound right.
> 
> So, is 1.0EC = 700ppm the factor that i should be using cause im starting to lean back to that direction now?


I don't use the EC scale, even though my Truncheon meter has CF, EC & PPM scales. 

Consult your meter's manual for conversion instructions. 



kwantiko said:


> al, what do you do with all the trim?
> 
> do you extract in any way (hash, oil, butter....)?
> 
> or do you just toss it?


Compost. I don't mess with it. I do get some finger hash when manicuring, but I smoke most of that and give away some to favoured clients.


----------



## AboveYourInfluence (May 13, 2008)

I learned more from this thread in 3 days than I did in a month of reading the other posts on this forum. I guess thats probably an exaggeration, but not by much. My eyes feel like they're bleeding, and I really, really wish I had taken notes from the start, I guess I'll read it again!

Al, you are a hero and an inspiration, thank you for sharing your knowledge


----------



## lawrencex34 (May 14, 2008)

So your saying flood about 2-3 inches up from the bottom of the pot?
My pot is about 7in. high and 6in wide.
How does the higher RW cubes get water?

Sorry for the questions just making sure =) THANKS


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 14, 2008)

AboveYourInfluence said:


> Al, you are a hero and an inspiration, thank you for sharing your knowledge


 thanks. 



lawrencex34 said:


> So your saying flood about 2-3 inches up from the bottom of the pot?
> My pot is about 7in. high and 6in wide.
> How does the higher RW cubes get water?
> 
> Sorry for the questions just making sure =) THANKS


um, didn't I just say....



Al B. Fuct said:


> Treat pots of mini RW cubes like pots of RW floc. Flood 1x/day only to about 50-75mm deep then drain immediately. Depends on your pump as to how long that will take, but you will probably want to have a digital timer as they allow for single minute increments in programming, rather than the minimum 15 min runtimes of most mechanical timers. *Sufficient water will wick up into the RW to keep thing moving. Don't flood any higher than about 75mm. *


----------



## davedub69 (May 14, 2008)

Al, thanks for the quick and informative response! I greatly apprecatie it all. I mentioned a chiller and u didn't know what one was. As far as my knowledge goes its a a/c unit they use in per say commercial freezer or such. They use water to remove the latent heat (i may using wrong words please forgive)  Here is a link to one with a lil info. 1 Fan Swamp Chiller
i've seen them used in hardcore Canadian Medical Grow ops. How often does your exhaust system run while the both cooltubed 1000w lights are on? THANKS again for taking your time to answer all our STONER grow question. stay red eyed.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 14, 2008)

RisingStock said:


> Suffering from nutrient lockout due to broken pH meter. [...]


Time for a new meter, eh?



> Any advice would be appreciated. Specifically, what to do now. (Sitting in tap water w/pH about 7.6-I THINK, no chems of any kind, at the moment.)


Don't leave them sitting in water for any length of time (ie more than 15 mins max). Will drown the roots- and you think you _*already *_had problems!



> Speaking of the pHup/down, in the winter just a touch was sufficient, lately it takes A LOT.(Which led me to believe the pH meter was broke...that and the fact it read 5.7 but with barley ANY nutes looked like Pics*)


Tapwater pH can vary seasonally and also after heavy rains in some areas. Heavy rain may wash pathogens out of catchments and into reservoirs, requiring additional treatment at the water plant. 

What did the meter say when you put it in your 4.0 & 7.0 calibration solutions?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 14, 2008)

davedub69 said:


> 1 Fan Swamp Chiller
> i've seen them used in hardcore Canadian Medical Grow ops.


ah, swamp coolers. Not useful in grow ops, regardless of how many you have seen used in them. Patently unwise. They cool air only slightly by evaporating water. This will cause a huge spike in humidity. High humidity will encourage mould, powdery mildew, etc. Swamp coolers- _*nyet!*_

If your temps are too high and the air you have available for intake is _below _your target range of 24-26C, increase the ventilation throughflow. Use a bigger exhaust blower, install an intake blower, install cooltubes (highly effective for reducing temps) or otherwise improve the efficiency of the ventilation system. If ambient air available to pump through the op is warmer than 24-26C, aircon is unfortunately the only way to go. 


> How often does your exhaust system run while the both cooltubed 1000w lights are on?


Hard to say. Varies tremendously depending upon the intake air temp. Now that we're in the cooler part of the year, with intake air at 16-18C, the exhaust doesn't have to run long nor often to hold the room at 25C +/- 1C, perhaps 4-5 mins a couple of times an hour, if that much.


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 14, 2008)

Hi Al, Iv been busy catching up on the thread. And in 3 pages of reading I learn more then 50 different articles. =)

I bought the GH Florea Nova Grow( 7-4-10) and Bloom (4-8-7). Do I just add nutes and match the ppm to your ppm and that would give me the same amount of nutes as you use? Also I read somewhere that h2o2 can be only added to tap water because it reacts with the nutes. How and when do you add it? 

THANKS AL! id be so lost without you


----------



## cmak40 (May 14, 2008)

you must be lost with him then to because these answers are here to...look for your specific nute chart and foolow that chart. al uses canna nutrients which will probably have a diff feeding schedule. h2o2 is harmful for ORGANIC nutrients which have LIVING microorganisms and chemical nutrients do not have these propertise so they are not harmed by the peroxide...

al can you add a poll to see how many people are actually attempting this grow. i have followed this to a T since february and about 6 weeks from ACTUAL PERPETUAL growth. I HAVE READ ALL OF THIS THREAD AND COME BACK EVERYDAY TO FIND THE SAME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. i would like to see how many people are actually using this info...


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 14, 2008)

Im acutally on page 85 of this thread trying to read every one. This is my first time ever growing so i just wanted to clear a few things up. 

And i understand that diff nutes have different feeding sheduals but my question was can i just use the same ppm and will it work? 

Sorry if these seem like stupid questions im still learning THanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 14, 2008)

firsttimegrowerr said:


> I bought the GH Florea Nova Grow( 7-4-10) and Bloom (4-8-7). Do I just add nutes and match the ppm to your ppm and that would give me the same amount of nutes as you use?


Sorry, I really can't help you much with GH's stuff, I've never used it. I've always thought anything more than 2-part nutes are just too complex. 3-part nutes might be highly configurable, but do you REALLY need all that monkeying around? I've seen the GH/Lucas method discussed- and I think I'd rather blow my brains out than go to that level of stuffing around. However, as you said, it stands to reason that if you mix for 1400ppm, you ought not to get in any trouble.



> Also I read somewhere that h2o2 can be only added to tap water because it reacts with the nutes. How and when do you add it?


H2O2 will only react with organic based nutes. It will break down organic nutes straight away- you can watch the foaming action while it's happening, too! 'Chemical' based nutes are fine with H2O2.

When I mix a fresh tank, I fill each tank about halfway, add 125ml H2O2, then add the parts A&B of my nutes (450ml each these days) to get 1400-1560ppm per my Truncheon meter. About 10-15ml of pHDown is needed in each 125L tank (with the present pH of my tap water, 7.1 right now) to set the pH at 5.8. The nutes alone will get it to about 6.1.



cmak40 said:


> al can you add a poll to see how many people are actually attempting this grow. i have followed this to a T since february and about 6 weeks from ACTUAL PERPETUAL growth. I HAVE READ ALL OF THIS THREAD AND COME BACK EVERYDAY TO FIND THE SAME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. i would like to see how many people are actually using this info...


The problem is that the thread is SO LONG that most people don't try to read it all the way through (big ups to everyone who has put in the time & effort!). Like I've said before, I have a lot of sympathy for anyone trying to use this thread as a reference. That's the main reason I keep getting asked the same stuff over and over and over. I do answer most questions out of courtesy, but it's nice when folks have clearly put in the time to read what I have put in quite a lot of time writing- and I do notice when someone has done the backgrounding.

Over the past year, I have seen a lot of folks make mention of having a go at the perpetual SoG, but there's surely just as many lurkers, quietly reading and just doing it. To be deadly honest, it's not so important for me to know how many people have implemented my scheme. My ego's not really that overdeveloped.  I just want people to be able to run an op that makes the best use of their time and effort. I've fucked up just about everything you can fuck up in this style of op and I'm always learning something new, so there's a lot of learning curve spinouts that folks can avoid if they are paying attention. Remember that I'm a stoned slacker who could fuck up an anvil with a rubber mallet, so if there's a fuckup to be found, I've surely found it. 



firsttimegrowerr said:


> Im acutally on page 85 of this thread trying to read every one. This is my first time ever growing so i just wanted to clear a few things up.
> 
> And i understand that diff nutes have different feeding sheduals but my question was can i just use the same ppm and will it work?


Nutes are really small potatoes in the general scheme of things. Far FAR too much is made of nutrients in hydroponic growing. I feel particularly sad for folks who have invested fat cash in a bunch of different magic sauces, most which are of totally dubious benefit. If I had to put figures on it, I'd say that 80-90% of a good grow is conditions in the op, not the nutes.

The vast majority of what you need to do is get the lighting, ventilation and watering all right. If you set your nute strength to 1400ppm, that's all you need to do, regardless of the brand of nutes. Try the very cheapest nutes you can buy. Often, that's some house-branded sauce, mixed up in the back room at Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe. The downside is that small batch nutes are never as consistent as those from large, well-known nute makers- but they almost certainly will work.


----------



## DrGreenFinger (May 14, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> you must be lost with him then to because these answers are here to...look for your specific nute chart and foolow that chart. al uses canna nutrients which will probably have a diff feeding schedule. h2o2 is harmful for ORGANIC nutrients which have LIVING microorganisms and chemical nutrients do not have these propertise so they are not harmed by the peroxide...
> 
> al can you add a poll to see how many people are actually attempting this grow. i have followed this to a T since february and about 6 weeks from ACTUAL PERPETUAL growth. I HAVE READ ALL OF THIS THREAD AND COME BACK EVERYDAY TO FIND THE SAME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. i would like to see how many people are actually using this info...


dont let it bother you, its a small thing to a giant.


----------



## dertmagert (May 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 3-part nutes might be highly configurable, but do you REALLY need all that monkeying around? I've seen the GH/Lucas method discussed- and I think I'd rather blow my brains out than go to that level of stuffing around.


jeez.. u act like its rocket science.. the lucas formula is GH flora's 3 part nutes minus 1 part (the gh flora grow) is not needed in using this formula because there is enough nitrogen in the gh flora micro.. . 

all u do is use 5ml flora micro(per gallon), 10ml flora bloom for veg 
and 8ml flora micro, 16ml flora bloom for flower... i found this to be quite simple.. dont know why u would result to blowing your brains out over something of this caliber, taking into consideration the amount of effort you put into your grow op..


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 14, 2008)

wow man, your just askin' for it! lol


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 14, 2008)

dertmagert said:


> jeez.. u act like its rocket science..


Keeping in mind that I'm a stoned slacker, by comparison to remembering a single measurement for nutes (450ml 'A' + 450ml 'B' in a tank) and just repeating it, forever- it IS rocket science! 

Has anyone here yet worked out that I don't actually _*like*_ growing dope that much? I'm always working out a way to do less, remember less or otherwise. I just want the dope to grow and let me know when it's ready to be smoked!


----------



## DrGreenFinger (May 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Keeping in mind that I'm a stoned slacker, by comparison to remembering a single measurement for nutes (450ml 'A' + 450ml 'B' in a tank) and just repeating it, forever- it IS rocket science!
> 
> Has anyone here yet worked out that I don't actually _*like*_ growing dope that much? I'm always working out a way to do less, remember less or otherwise. I just want the dope to grow and let me know when it's ready to be smoked!


for sure!!!


----------



## GoodFriend (May 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Keeping in mind that I'm a stoned slacker, by comparison to remembering a single measurement for nutes (450ml 'A' + 450ml 'B' in a tank) and just repeating it, forever- it IS rocket science!
> 
> * Has anyone here yet worked out that I don't actually like growing dope that much*? I'm always working out a way to do less, remember less or otherwise. I just want the dope to grow and let me know when it's ready to be smoked!



... so your saying it doesn't still bring a smile to your face walking into the room and being surrounded by beautiful buds????????????


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 14, 2008)

lumberjack_ian said:


> ... so your saying it doesn't still bring a smile to your face walking into the room and being surrounded by beautiful buds????????????


It never HAS brought a smile to my face! When I look in a grow op, I'm looking more for what's going _wrong _than what's _right_. It is a task. I don't hang out in my grow op for shits and giggles.


----------



## RisingStock (May 14, 2008)

Hey Al....

Thanks for the input...as far as drowning the roots, I doubt it...it's a Deep Water Culture Op (DWC)....so it WAS sitting in tapwater, but after reading how to 'flush' is now in pH'd water (old fashioned droplet checker) of about 5.8-6.0. Going to do this for 3-4 more days and then slowly re-introduce nutes. I'm afraid the bloomers ar shot, but still hope for the moms....I HOPE!! (Or it's back to the proverbial drawing board.)

Frustrating thing was it was a very weak nute solution, and pH meter read at a perfect 5.7.....but either that was totally wrong OR I'm missing something else. The unknown is far scarier.......and frustrating.

Which all leads to my next question. How much does relative humidity affect plants. As a for example, how about a plant with pH 5.5 and a plant with 6.3, both in a dry room? (A post I read lead me to believe this can actually be a very BIG deal(?))


Thanks Al


----------



## GoodFriend (May 14, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It never HAS brought a smile to my face! When I look in a grow op, I'm looking more for what's going _wrong _than what's _right_. It is a task. I don't hang out in my grow op for shits and giggles.



... that's kinda sad....

that would make this so much harder if i didn't love what i was doing... huh


to each their own! smoke on brother!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 15, 2008)

RisingStock said:


> Hey Al....
> 
> Thanks for the input...as far as drowning the roots, I doubt it...it's a Deep Water Culture Op (DWC)....so it WAS sitting in tapwater, but after reading how to 'flush' is now in pH'd water (old fashioned droplet checker) of about 5.8-6.0. Going to do this for 3-4 more days and then slowly re-introduce nutes. I'm afraid the bloomers ar shot, but still hope for the moms....I HOPE!! (Or it's back to the proverbial drawing board.)
> 
> ...


Ah, OK, lights are on now, thanks. 

A weak nute soln can be 5.7 as can be one that is so strong as to kill your plants outright. 

What was your pH meter reading in your 4.0 & 7.0 calibration solutions?

Might be a real good time to do a batch of cuttings, if the mums aren't too cooked yet.

I wouldn't have thought there was any relationship at all between RH & pH, except for that one pesky letter 'H'.  



lumberjack_ian said:


> ... that's kinda sad....
> 
> that would make this so much harder if i didn't love what i was doing... huh


Well, I'm afraid it's like work to me, most days anyway. It's most like work when I'm trying to sort out a persistent problem. I'd rather be having a coffee, smoking a cone and fucking around on the net.


----------



## 1freezy (May 15, 2008)

AL B. FUCT, 

I stole part of one of your posts and copied it here -- https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/73464-water-cooled-lights-liquid-lumens.html#post845345 
PLEASE HAVE A LOOK!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 15, 2008)

1freezy said:


> AL B. FUCT,
> 
> I stole part of one of your posts and copied it here -- https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/73464-water-cooled-lights-liquid-lumens.html#post845345
> PLEASE HAVE A LOOK!


I don't see where you credited my writing in your post. That IS theft. 

You've also failed to reflect my _*whole*_ opinion of these water cooled cooltubes:


> If you absolutely cannot remove heat via an air cooling system, the "Fresca Sol" water cooled light will do very well, for sure.
> 
> Keep in mind that the makers say you need 50gal (189L) of water per 1000W light. I simply would not have room in my op for 378L worth of tanks for cooing lights.
> 
> However, the complexities and necessary maintenance of a water cooling system make it a 2nd best choice to air cooled cooltubes. Air cooled tubes need dusting once a year or so- that's about it.


Also, who is BUDGI and why do most of that user's posts spam up these water cooled tubes?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 15, 2008)

Holy sales pitch, Batman!



> *No Bulb Heat*
> After a few hours running, the glass on the bottom of a typical 1000W air-cooled set up is usually between 120 and 130 degrees F. With the Hydroflector Hybrid, after 8 hours of running continuously with water chilled to 65 degrees F, the inner surface of the glass won&#8217;t exceed 80 degrees F.


What crap. My air-cooled cooltubes' surfaces- ABOVE the lamp- don't exceed 28C. I can lay my hand on them all day long.









> *Chiller Downtime*
> While a ¼ HP chiller draws about the same amount of power as a typical 8&#8221; fan (3.6A for the chiller vs. 3.8A for the fan), the fan runs continuously while the chiller&#8217;s compressor only comes on periodically. Every minute the chiller&#8217;s compressor doesn&#8217;t run is a minute you&#8217;d have been paying for the fan to run.


Where the _*hell*_ are they getting the idea that a cooltube blower takes 3.8 amps (456W on 120V) to run?! The Allvent A60 pushing air through my tubes draws 35W- that's 0.145A (145mA) at 240V or 0.291A (291mA) on 120V. A "1/4 HP chiller" which draws 3.6A @ 120V is consuming 432 watts! That's enough for a 400W HPS!

Don't believe every sales pitch you read!


----------



## GrowBigOrGrowHome (May 15, 2008)

Holy crap. I made it to the end of this marathon (even though the finish line kept moving further away.) Thank you so much for donating all of your time to this thread and all the info Al. I think I need to read it again and take notes this time.

I had a couple of questions about the AAW reflectors (sorry if I missed 'em.) Do you know why the adjust-a-wings come in two different sizes based on wattage? Wouldn't that have to do more with how much spread you want or is it that the higher wattage bulbs are physically bigger in size?

Thanks again. I really appreciate your level headed, results driven philosophy towards growing, the minimal effort you want to put into it so you aren't married to your grow all the time and all the advice about the gimicky crap that we don't need to buy in order to grow great bud!


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 15, 2008)

al need your help yet again, to refresh your memory i am the one with the grow room that is 8'x14'x8' and has the benefit of an a.c. unit. I just purchased a 6" 496cfm blower/fan that i am gonna use as the rooms main exhaust. i know you say yours is on a thermostatic switch and i will buy one but for now all i have is a digi timer, what i need to know is how long should i run the room exhaust and how often? ( until i get the thermo switch )


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 15, 2008)

GrowBigOrGrowHome said:


> Holy crap. I made it to the end of this marathon (even though the finish line kept moving further away.) Thank you so much for donating all of your time to this thread and all the info Al. I think I need to read it again and take notes this time.
> 
> [...]
> Thanks again. I really appreciate your level headed, results driven philosophy towards growing, the minimal effort you want to put into it so you aren't married to your grow all the time and all the advice about the gimicky crap that we don't need to buy in order to grow great bud!


 Thanks for that. Glad you got all the way through the thread. It's a big ask, but I bet you got several questions answered before you had to ask them. 



> I had a couple of questions about the AAW reflectors (sorry if I missed 'em.) Do you know why the adjust-a-wings come in two different sizes based on wattage? Wouldn't that have to do more with how much spread you want or is it that the higher wattage bulbs are physically bigger in size?


 
The different sized AAWs are for different sized lamps or for covering lighted space areas of different sizes. Obviously, the larger reflector suits larger grow spaces. You should use the largest ref you can fit in. 

400 & 600W HPS tube envelopes themselves are not too different in size, about the same diameter (roughly 80mm) but 600s are about 50mm longer. 1000s are about 300mm long and have a bulge in the middle of the tube's glass envelope, making them about 100mm around their middles. 

The large AAWs will suit a pair of 400s or 600s or a single 1000. Naturally, since lumens don't 'add,' using multiple lamps is not a great idea. You don't get brighter (more intense) light by putting more than one relatively dimmer light over the same area. It is light intensity that drives bud production. A rule-o-thumb that works pretty well for HPS light is 50W per sq ft. 

A more precise way to decide what lamp to use is to work out the actual lumens per sq metre (lux) that the lamp can lay down, with the lamp-to-leaf spacing figured in. Remember that light intensity reduces by a square of the distance from lamp to leaf. An uncooltubed 600 can be spaced closer to leaves than an uncooltubed 1000, so a 600 can actually put down more lux than a 1000. However, when cooltubes are used, all bets are off. The 1000 wins hands down. 



bugsrnme said:


> al need your help yet again, to refresh your memory i am the one with the grow room that is 8'x14'x8' and has the benefit of an a.c. unit. I just purchased a 6" 496cfm blower/fan that i am gonna use as the rooms main exhaust. i know you say yours is on a thermostatic switch and i will buy one but for now all i have is a digi timer, what i need to know is how long should i run the room exhaust and how often? ( until i get the thermo switch )


496CFM is a hell of a lot for a 6" blower! Is that figure right? I have a few Allvent A60, 150mm blowers in service; the maker rates the A60 at 192CFM.

Since you have aircon managing your temp, you only need to bring in some fresh, CO2 laden air every so often. You won't need a thermostat for that job. I'm not confident of the actual flow rate of your 6" blower, so I can't really give a solid figure, but I can ballpark you.

You're looking to exchange the room's air volume once or twice an hour during lights-on. If your fan really does move 496 CFM, it will exchange your 896cu ft room airmass in 1.8 minutes. You might run your exhaust blower for 2-3 mins, either once or twice an hour. Obviously, that figure will change if your blower is closer to 200CFM. If it is 200CFM, run the blower for 4-5 mins, once or twice an hour.


----------



## Otisâ¢Driftwood (May 15, 2008)

Hello Al. First off great thread .. very imformative. I would just like to know your opinion on a system like the Ebb&Grow. Thanks Discount Hydroponics - Ebb & Gro


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 15, 2008)

ya al that's what it says. i just bought it from htgsupply it's a 6" inline centrifigal fan. the ad says:


Control odor and temperature in your grow area with this Grow Bright 6" Inline Fan. Inline fans are perfect for carbon filters, air cooling lighting reflectors or attaching to ducting to ventilate your grow room!

Customers can control odors and keep equipment cool with this compact metal fan. Extremely quiet and easy to install, this 110-watt, 6-inch fan pushes 424 cubic feet per minute.

This fan goes perfectly with the Goblin Charcoal Filter

i do appologize it says 424 not 496 

here is an attachment pic of the fan.
thanks again al it's almost all done now and i definately owe it to you


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 15, 2008)

here's another one of the fan

also...bringing in the fresh air ...do i need an intake or will the passive intake resulting from tha vacuum caused by the 6"er be enough?
( if the rating is accurate)

or does the window unit a.c. bring any outside air in while it's running?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 15, 2008)

bugsrnme said:


> ya al that's what it says. i just bought it from htgsupply it's a 6" inline centrifigal fan.


 Ah, ok- it's a centrif! Didn't know that til here! No wonder it can shift >400CFM. 



bugsrnme said:


> also...bringing in the fresh air ...do i need an intake or will the passive intake resulting from tha vacuum caused by the 6"er be enough?
> ( if the rating is accurate)


You can use passive intake, but there has to be a dedicated intake opening- relying on leaks for inbound air isn't wise. Intakes should be near the floor in the room. Passive intakes should be about twice the size of the exhaust ducting. 

Use of an intake fan makes the flowthrough much more efficient. You could use a single 6" fan. It can be an axial since intake fans are pushing into a low static pressure created by the exhaust blower. Intakes should be rated no more than about 80-90% of the exhaust blower. This keeps the room at a slightly negative pressure compared to atmospheric. This way, air leakage though any gaps in the room construction is inward rather than outward, meaning all your grow room air & scents are going down the exhaust line and through your carbon filter if you have one. It is also easier to light-trap a single inlet with an intake blower. 



> or does the window unit a.c. bring any outside air in while it's running?


Some aircon units have a ventilate/recirculate setting. On 'ventilate' a small amount of air is brought in from outdoors. However, it's hard to tell exactly how much air will move through that small duct in the a/c unit. You're better off periodically running your exhaust blower with a timer.


----------



## smartfood (May 16, 2008)

Hey Al, you said it'd take about three weeks to veg up mums with fluoros right? That's what I'm doing but the stems really don't get very thick. I'm using mixed spectrum right now; would you suggest going completely to 2700K fluoros (As MH/HPS isn't a possibility right now)? That'd be closer in spectrum to HPS (which is what I believe you cited as the source of your thick stems). Thanks!

SF


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 16, 2008)

smartfood said:


> Hey Al, you said it'd take about three weeks to veg up mums with fluoros right?


Did I? I might have thought it would take about 3 wks under an HPS or MH to get a clone up to a size suiting taking cuttings, would be a cpl wks longer (at least) under flos. 



> That'd be closer in spectrum to HPS (which is what I believe you cited as the source of your thick stems).


No, it's not the spectrum, it's the luminous intensity that drives plant growth. Spectrum will favour certain growth characters, but you can veg with HPS or flower with MH if it suits you. I use the HPS in veg, not because it develops thick stems but because it tends to cause some elongation in mums, giving me long stems for cuttings.

Fluoros deliver low intensity light. Won't matter to the plant what the spectrum is if it is not getting enough intensity. Fluoros will (eventually) grow plants, but your patience will be tested in the meantime. If you want faster plant development, you're gonna have to find a way to get high intensity light in there.


----------



## smartfood (May 16, 2008)

With the space available and only 2 mums, do you think one 100W MH Flood light @ +/- 8,000 lumens would be adequate? I might be able to fit 2 of those in there if need be. Again, thanks for your advice!


----------



## fanatic (May 16, 2008)

Al, very nice effort in this thread. I've learned a lot. I started reading the first 50 pages, but then.... lazyness, hopefully you'll understand, got to me and I had to go to the last page a write.

I run a perpetual setup, like yours (somewhat), except mine is twice the size (I harvest every week). For years, it has been a straightforward soil grow, 15 plants (8" pots) under a 600W lamp.... I run 8 of those in flowering, in two separate rooms (one goes on right after the other room goes off, beause of electric concerns).
In addition, I have a vegetative room, where I keep two 400W MH, and several flouros (another 800W in total)...... each of the three rooms I have an AC running at all times... i'm in a warm city.
For all my efforts in increasing yields..... I've only managed to get 10 or 11 oz dry bud per week.

I'm going to start changing to your method. I've already started with the clones, and I' m going to keep mothers for the first time in my life.... 
My question is.....
should I discard the 600W HPS lights?, or could I succesfully place a 600W HPS on top of each tray (as oppossed to your 1000 per pair of trays)?
Also, could I use coco coir instead of the fytocell? (I cant get anything rockwool or fytocell in my city)
I want to start with one room first.


----------



## lush1 (May 16, 2008)

ever been busted al?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 16, 2008)

smartfood said:


> With the space available and only 2 mums, do you think one 100W MH Flood light @ +/- 8,000 lumens would be adequate? I might be able to fit 2 of those in there if need be. Again, thanks for your advice!


 8000 lumens isn't terribly bright. I think I've seen some fluoros at 6000. If you're prepared to put 200W worth of power at it, could you go a 175MH (~15,000 lumens) or a 250 HPS (28,000 lumens)? Better to go with a single bright light than a pair of comparatively dimmer ones. 



fanatic said:


> I've only managed to get 10 or 11 oz dry bud per week.


You're getting pretty much the same as I am. I pull about 23oz every 2 weeks off 23 SoG style plants. However, if you're flowering only with a single 600, you are kicking my ass from here to Mars and back! I run a pair of 1000s, as you know. If I were you, I don't think I'd be bitching too loud. 



> I'm going to start changing to your method. I've already started with the clones, and I' m going to keep mothers for the first time in my life....


Mums are a piece of piss to keep. No sweat. 

You might rethink your layout. You won't need near as much space nor light for vegging if you switch to SoG. A 400 will support 8-10 mums, might be able to do it with a 250HPS. About 5% of your floorspace can go to vegging mums, the rest to flowering. 



> My question is.....
> should I discard the 600W HPS lights?, or could I succesfully place a 600W HPS on top of each tray (as oppossed to your 1000 per pair of trays)?


Nah, the 600HPS is a very fine light. Use 'em. I could easily see my op with a 600 over each tray. Without cooltubes, a 600 can be spaced closer to leaves than a 1000. A 600 usually does about 95,000 lumens, a 1000 does 160,000, but since a 600 can be dropped down lower, the actual lumens per sq metre (lux) applied can be the same or higher than a 1000. 

However, when fitted in cooltubes, the 1000 can be spaced the same as a 600- and beats its pants off in the process in terms of laying down lux on the leaves. 

The downside to using 600s is that they are marginally less efficient in lumens per watt than 1000s and you have to have twice the number of ballasts and reflectors. It'd work fine, let 'er rip. 



> Also, could I use coco coir instead of the fytocell? (I cant get anything rockwool or fytocell in my city)


Sure, you could use coir, could use pellets, etc. Whatever you can stuff in a pot. I'm not a fan of coir and have seen it break up when exposed to H2O2, but a knee-hi stocking over the bottom of each pot should contain any loose frags that might foul a water pump. However, it will work for you. 



lush1 said:


> ever been busted al?


Never- and it's not because I'm real smart or real lucky. It's because I'm very security minded and I always plan ahead. I calculate risks and evaluate security at every turn. It's a lot of mental runtime that I'd rather not do, but it's part of the gig.


----------



## Sativa's Son (May 16, 2008)

Al, 
Speaking of being busted. Is'nt there somewhere in this thread where you mentioned how you can be safer, security wise? I also read on the first page where you said you were only pulling 13 - 16 oz every two weeks, now your pulling 23 oz's every two weeks? What's different?


----------



## DrGreenFinger (May 16, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 8000 lumens isn't terribly bright. I think I've seen some fluoros at 6000. If you're prepared to put 200W worth of power at it, could you go a 175MH (~15,000 lumens) or a 250 HPS (28,000 lumens)? Better to go with a single bright light than a pair of comparatively dimmer ones.
> 
> You're getting pretty much the same as I am. I pull about 23oz every 2 weeks off 23 SoG style plants. However, if you're flowering only with a single 600, you are kicking my ass from here to Mars and back! I run a pair of 1000s, as you know. If I were you, I don't think I'd be bitching too loud.
> 
> ...


 
a lot of people dont understand that it is better to adopt this way of thinking on your own NOW, as opposed to enduring years of trouble only to adopt this way of thinking later, and by force...or they could just remain fools.


----------



## Wesley1Pipes (May 17, 2008)

Why do you prefer solid pots vs. net pots? Do the roots get to much exposure in net pots? I was worried about solid pots floating with only 40mm RW cubes and clay pellets- and like I said I can't get my hands on fytocell yet. (The advanced thread search isn't very helpful- unless you actually haven't commented on them in your 15 month post (nice stamina btw))


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 17, 2008)

Sativa's Son said:


> Al,
> Speaking of being busted. Is'nt there somewhere in this thread where you mentioned how you can be safer, security wise?


yeah- be a one man band. Partners are trouble, every single time. 



> I also read on the first page where you said you were only pulling 13 - 16 oz every two weeks, now your pulling 23 oz's every two weeks? What's different?


hmm... 90% of it was remediation, fixing broken stuff. Since post #1... new 600CFM exhaust blower, corrected misuse of PK-13-14, cooltubes now hold temps @ 25C +/- 1C and allow closer lamp-leaf spacing, sulfur 'burner' halted powdery mildew, replaced faulty pH pen electrode.



Wesley1Pipes said:


> Why do you prefer solid pots vs. net pots? Do the roots get to much exposure in net pots? I was worried about solid pots floating with only 40mm RW cubes and clay pellets- and like I said I can't get my hands on fytocell yet. (The advanced thread search isn't very helpful- unless you actually haven't commented on them in your 15 month post (nice stamina btw))


You can stop worrying about pots of pellets floating- they won't. Won't matter if they are in normal pots with drain holes or netpots.

Solid wall pots, with drain holes of course, better suit a flood sys. Netpots are useful in an aero or DWC application where easy exit for the roots from the pots is desirable and where the roots are protected or constantly kept moist once they do emerge from the pots. If netpots are used in a flood sys, the roots would be air-pruned as soon as they poked their noses out. 

Also, common plastic pots are usually lots cheaper than netpots- I get 175mm pots for 45c each in stacks of 70 from this mob.


----------



## lotowork777 (May 17, 2008)

Al B Fuct,

I have four 100 gallon resovoirs , four trays , 12 fans, 16 ballasts , 16, 600 watts, so I have the equip and it is a hydro grow. I vegg for 2 to 6 weeks and then a 8 week flower. The harvest is usually 8 solid pounds. What do you suggest or what do I need to do to get on a harvest every 2 weeks. Is that something that I haveto build up to somehow. What kind of schedrule do I need. Also what PPM do you use? Thanks


----------



## stickyicky77 (May 17, 2008)

lotowork777 said:


> Al B Fuct,
> 
> I have four 100 gallon resovoirs , four trays , 12 fans, 16 ballasts , 16, 600 watts, so I have the equip and it is a hydro grow. I vegg for 2 to 6 weeks and then a 8 week flower. The harvest is usually 8 solid pounds. What do you suggest or what do I need to do to get on a harvest every 2 weeks. Is that something that I haveto build up to somehow. What kind of schedrule do I need. Also what PPM do you use? Thanks


READ page 1.


----------



## rdgx34 (May 17, 2008)

Hey AL, i was just wondering is this how you make your living? That would be my dream job lol.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 17, 2008)

lotowork777 said:


> Al B Fuct,
> What do you suggest or what do I need to do to get on a harvest every 2 weeks. Is that something that I haveto build up to somehow. What kind of schedrule do I need.


You simply need to establish some mother plants (in your case a LOT of them) and start taking cuttings every 2 weeks. 



> Also what PPM do you use?


Flowering plants get Canna Flores, 1400ppm @ 5.8. Mums get Canna Vega, 1500-1800, also at 5.8.



rdgx34 said:


> Hey AL, i was just wondering is this how you make your living? That would be my dream job lol.


While I'm not actually prepared to describe my income circumstance, the op does pay its own way- and I have little time to do much else.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 17, 2008)

my kali mist plant is like 2 months old i think and im trying to make it a mother and some of the branches have 4 nodes should i begin to clone her, or should i let her get bigger first. what yours opinion?? also heres my clones i cut they look a lil small compared to ur monsters so i think i might flower some and veg others jus to see how much bud i can get out of them. i want clones like yours.


later


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 17, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> my kali mist plant is like 2 months old i think and im trying to make it a mother and some of the branches have 4 nodes should i begin to clone her, or should i let her get bigger first. what yours opinion?? also heres my clones i cut they look a lil small compared to ur monsters so i think i might flower some and veg others jus to see how much bud i can get out of them. i want clones like yours.


Your clones look they've been overwatered a bit- I see some rosetting (small bladed leaves) and one has yellowing, necrotic leaves. Looks like you may have already taken some dead leaves off the ones that appear to be rosetting. If they have been in a flood tray, the flood level may be touching the cubes, causing the problem.

Yes, the tall plant was ready for a pass of cuttings a few weeks ago. I would have nipped the growing tip off that one very early on after putting it in to veg- you would have had more tall, thick stems by now. 

No matter, take the mainstem from that one and make a good sized cutting, perhaps 1-2 more stems can be cuttings as well. Put the thing under a more powerful light (has this one been raised under fluoros?) and you'll get more, thicker stems faster for your ensuing batches. A 250HPS would work pretty well.


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 17, 2008)

im in the works of getting a flood tray setup for the clones but right now im self flooding them u could say, makes sense ya the water has touched the cubes, thanks for lettin me no.

ahh makes sense cut the top of the main stem for a clone and the branches will get thicker, god i'm a idiot. 

Yes its been under 2 100 watt fluros and then i have the 40 watt goin up the side hopeing to help the branches.

for my clones im thinkin another month veg or so what do u think?? there like 5 inches tall btw.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 17, 2008)

brontobrandon1 said:


> im in the works of getting a flood tray setup for the clones but right now im self flooding them u could say, makes sense ya the water has touched the cubes, thanks for lettin me no.


I think watering clones is best done by hand. You can judge the watering by feel of the weight of the cube, once you're accustomed to the right weight. Keep in mind that some cubes may need more or less water than others. 

Cubes also have to sit directly on a heat mat (or in a thin plastic tray sitting on a heat mat) until they set root- pots of pellets won't conduct heat from the mat well. 

Once they have roots out of the bottoms of the cubes, _*then*_ they can go into pots of pellets in a flood tray. The flood level should come up to about 1/2" below the cube. New clones in pots of pellets can have their pellets (not the cubes) handwatered if you like, but if you have the flood level relationship to the cube bottoms right, the pellets will be damp enough for the roots to seek them out.



> ahh makes sense cut the top of the main stem for a clone and the branches will get thicker, god i'm a idiot.


yep- but you're no idiot, just inexperienced. Idiots never learn- but newbism _*is*_ curable.  You'll get there. 



> Yes its been under 2 100 watt fluros and then i have the 40 watt goin up the side hopeing to help the branches.
> 
> for my clones im thinkin another month veg or so what do u think?? there like 5 inches tall btw.


100 watt fluoros? Is that the actual power consumption of the lamp or the equivalent rating compared to an incandescent? Power consumption isn't the best figure to use when comparing lamps. Pays you to know how bright the thing is in lumens. The incandescent equivalence is a totally useless figure to growers.

Remember that fluoros emit low-intensity light and thus must be spaced very close to leaves (within a couple inches) when you're trying to veg with them. Clones only need to be convinced it's daylight for 18+ hours/day and don't need to be pounded with light, but plants need a bit more intensity when you're trying to veg them up.

Yep, it will be at least another month for those under fluoros before they'll give you any good stems. Look into a 175MH or a 250HPS if you want bigger, better & faster.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 17, 2008)

Cross-post from the Batch of clones in rockwool thread:



> I don't spend a lot of time talking about the mums- perhaps I should.
> 
> Grabbed the cam when doing the last batch of cuts.
> 
> ...


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (May 17, 2008)

Thank you for taking the time to share your wonderful knowlege and expertice. I found the thread to be very interesting and kinda sparked my interest to move from soil to your setup-After reading all of your posts on the subject I fell very confidant in the transition. You can teach an old dog new tricks---I've been growing in soil for over 20 years--I'm tired of getting dirty Thanks Again 

P.S. I have a strain that my father and I have been working on for the past 6 years--Very stable---we call it GODZILLA (no relationship to GOD strain out of BC) we have had great results in soil--can't wait to try it in the new set-up.


----------



## rdgx34 (May 17, 2008)

Hey al . By snipping off the growing stem on the mother plants do you mean the main stem in the middle? You just cut it? Also do i just do this once to get thicker longer stems or i should do it every so often? 

Thanks Al


----------



## brontobrandon1 (May 17, 2008)

helll ya thank u so much al i appreciate the time u take to answer and give me advice, im bout to cut the top for a clone now and hopefully the branches will get thicker, ya def im gonna get a 200 mh or somethen.



later bro


----------



## Wesley1Pipes (May 17, 2008)

Thanks again Al! I'll stop worryin about pots now and badger you about something else. I've been tryin to completely read your thread but there are about 300 pages to read/print (with 8 pt font) so thanks for bein patient with all of us. 

I did run across a self proclaimed expert you dealt with about a year ago by the name of VideoMan- it seems much of your "knowledge" is rubbish and I'm tempted to learn from him and only him....JK (I was re-reading his brilliant posts so I had to mention him  )


----------



## 2stoge (May 18, 2008)

Al thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with all of us. Just finished reading the entire thread, I was gonna post questions earlier but Im glad I didnt because all my questions were answered along the way. 

One question i do have is this. i have three 250watt hps and a 100watt hps with your batwing reflector but no cooltubes, what size yield do you think i should expect if i follow your example but on a smaller scale with 2.5'x2.5' trays. Is it worth trying or are these lights just too weak?

Thanks again for sharing. Sorry if the question is to vague. Still a newbooty to growing.


----------



## smartbadguy (May 18, 2008)

dude what is your power come out as???


----------



## Otisâ¢Driftwood (May 18, 2008)

Does 35% hydrogen peroxide work as well or at all as compared to 50% strength?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 18, 2008)

rdgx34 said:


> Hey al . By snipping off the growing stem on the mother plants do you mean the main stem in the middle? You just cut it? Also do i just do this once to get thicker longer stems or i should do it every so often?


 When you're raising up a clone to be a mum, nip off just the growing tip. This will force growth to divide, giving more stems. Let it veg for another couple of weeks and nip off the new growing tips on the stems that have popped up. Another couple weeks of vegging and they should be ready to donate cuttings.

Each time you do a batch of cuttings, nip off the growing tips of the stems which were too small to use in this pass. 

From the Batch of clones in rockwool thread:


> Now, let's prune back the mothers.
> 
> Some stems are too small to make cuttings with on this pass. We'll take cuttings from these stems when they have developed more in about 2 weeks.
> 
> ...





Wesley1Pipes said:


> (I was re-reading his brilliant posts so I had to mention him  )


Some mothers DO have 'em. 



2stoge said:


> A
> One question i do have is this. i have three 250watt hps and a 100watt hps with your batwing reflector but no cooltubes, what size yield do you think i should expect if i follow your example but on a smaller scale with 2.5'x2.5' trays. Is it worth trying or are these lights just too weak?


The 100HPS is getting well down into the wimp zone, but it is still useful for raising a mum (perhaps 2 very small ones). It will still kick the pants off 100W worth of fluoros.

250HPS will do SoG but only about 6-8 SoG pruned plants per light. Cooltubes would stabilise your room temps, particularly if you are using a small space. However, with 250s, you might get away without them with a good ventilation system, one capable of shifting the volume of your room in a couple of minutes. You might add one more HPS and have 4 lights, using your existing 250s over trays 1-3 and perhaps a 400 over tray 4. There will be a lot of waste heat from the multiple ballasts, which should be remotely mounted outside the room's airmass. 

I'd expect your initial yields at about 1/4-1/2z per plant. As you become more proficient, 3/4z per for 6-8 plants from your 250s isn't unreasonable.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 18, 2008)

smartbadguy said:


> dude what is your power come out as???


pardon?

How much power does the op use?

If that's your question, it draws 3500W with everything on, including the 2x 1000HPS and the 400 for the mums. During lights-off in the flowering area, the op is still drawing about 1300W as the 400HPS in the mum area runs 24/7, as does the dehumidifier, circ fans and the clonebox.



OtisDriftwood;854864 said:


> Does 35% hydrogen peroxide work as well or at all as compared to 50% strength?


Yep, it works just fine, just use 1.4x the amount you'd use for 50%, i.e. 1.4ml/litre for most applications.


----------



## DaveM (May 18, 2008)

Hello again Al, just thought I would let you know I opped for the Adjustawing  I am really pleased with it.


----------



## Otisâ¢Driftwood (May 18, 2008)

Thanks Al. Great thread.


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (May 18, 2008)

Just finished looking over your photo gall.---very nice with some great ideas. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Is the 16-23 ounce weight your pulling after the end of the cycle dry finished, cured weight? or are those numbers just after you trimmed the bud(the only reason I ask is to know for my setup and table sizes-I have a 10'X10' flowering room).

2. Have you tried co2 enrich? and if you have what were the results?(I have a natur gas system for the flowering room and just wondered if I should cont. to use it or remove it and replace the space with something needed-would like to get some feedback with your system.

3. Do you run your intake and exh air 24/24? If not what is the cycle your on?

4. I noticed allot more use of the fyto---are you seeing any gains from rockwool floc(I understand you still use the floc in the bottom of the pots to keep the fyto from comming out your drain holes)

5. Have u used the canna boost?

6. Do you use ro/ tap water?(our water here comes out 7.8 with a healthy 700ppm)

Again thank you for all the great info---it has been a real treat to go throu this thread-----all the information would make a great book!!!

Dr. VonDankenstine


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 18, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Hello again Al, just thought I would let you know I opped for the Adjustawing  I am really pleased with it.


 Good news, thanks for that. I never have trouble recommending something as well-made as the AAWs. Not cheap, but you know the adage; buy well and buy _*once*_. 



Otis&#8226;Driftwood;855136 said:


> Thanks Al. Great thread.


 no worries, happy to help. 



DR. VonDankenstine said:


> 1. Is the 16-23 ounce weight your pulling after the end of the cycle dry finished, cured weight? or are those numbers just after you trimmed the bud


That's dry, smokable weight. Would be a bit silly for me to cite the weight of wet bud.



> 2. Have you tried co2 enrich? and if you have what were the results?(I have a natur gas system


Yes, I've run it on other ops in the past, though these were not my ops, rather some I was commissioned to build. It can have dramatic results, with 20-30% gains. However, for my own ops, cost and lack of need to increase the production of my op (yes Virginia, there's a such thing as 'enough') has prohibited me from installing it to date. 

Combustion based CO2 gens are well suited to very large grows. Small ones will struggle with the heat generated by gas-fired CO2 gens. Smaller grows work better with CO2 from a tank/reg/application metering device.



> 3. Do you run your intake and exh air 24/24? If not what is the cycle your on?


No, the ventilation system runs on a thermostat.



> 4. I noticed allot more use of the fyto---are you seeing any gains from rockwool floc(I understand you still use the floc in the bottom of the pots to keep the fyto from comming out your drain holes)


Yes, there's been a marginal improvement with Fytocell. However, I'm still really on the learning curve with the stuff. I've found that it has to be packed in the pots really rather tightly for best results. In floc only, plants in wks1-2 used to show some early symptoms of overwatering as floc is so highly absorbent. Very small plants could not soak up a significant portion of the water in the pot of floc before dissolved O2 would disspate from the water in the floc (more than 24 hours watering interval required, reducing the amt of oxygenated nutes which could be given to the small plants). Since Fytocell has a greater air content, this problem has gone away. This has led to some gains down the line; plants are more vigorous, notably in wks2-4. However, it's hard to say exactly what the Fytocell has done to yield as yet because there's been some other problems in the system related to a pH meter electrode failure and powdery mildew, both now solved, but now I'm waiting for all the plants which were in the room before I made corrections to come out the far end of the pipeline.



> 5. Have u used the canna boost?


No, and for the prices they want for it, I won't. It's utter madness- even if it works. I made a mathematical error when I suggested several pages back that Boost would cost me $600/mo. It actually would cost $90 per application per tank or $720/mo. This is fully *4 times* what I spend per month on electricity (for the whole fucking house, not just the op), which is my greatest input cost. When Canna cut the price of the stuff to about 1/10 what it is now, I'll think about it. It would cost very significantly less to install CO2, which I KNOW will get me 20-30% gains (or more!).



> 6. Do you use ro/ tap water?(our water here comes out 7.8 with a healthy 700ppm)


No, ordinary municipal tapwater is just fine for my op and the vast majority of others. 700ppm is quite a lot, though. Chances are that this is being caused by dissolved limestone (calcium), particularly if you are in an area known for 'hard' water. The calcium isn't so bad- I actually use a Ca additive. However, that level of mineral content will drive the amount of nutes you can use way down. 99 times out of 100, I'd say RO or other purification heroics are just not needed for municipal tapwater. You might be the exception.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 18, 2008)

While I'm here, let me take a minute to praise the sulfur 'burner' again. I fought for years to get powdery mildew under control with bi-weekly spraying using various anti-mould sauces from the tried-and-true gardener's aid of lime sulfur to a magic sauce called 'Micro Kill,' which despite a photo of a mushroom cloud from a nuclear blast on the label, purported to be a non-toxic extract of a Yucca plant or some such shit. PM always came back, sometimes faster, sometimes slower. 



The sulfur 'burner' has completely halted PM in the op. I'm running it on a timer, 2x/day for 8 minutes during lights off. It runs about an hour after lights-off and about an hour before lights-on. Running during lights-off makes it less likely that the ventilation system will be running, which would just blow the sulfur vapour out the exhaust. I started with 10mins runtime 2x/day but saw some leaf tip burn. 8mins seems to get the job done, might even be able to cut it down more, but it takes about 5 mins heating just to melt the sulfur. 



The sulfur 'burner' cost about $85 and a 500g packet of powdered sulfur was less than $5. It has yet to consume 100g of the stuff after about 8 weeks of use.


----------



## smartbadguy (May 18, 2008)

3500W?? so dose you power bill come as $1000 per month


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 18, 2008)

smartbadguy said:


> 3500W?? so dose you power bill come as $1000 per month


No- it's drawing 3500 for only 12h/day. I also have a low cost source of power, about 5c/kWh. About $86/mo to run it all. If you have a more usual power rate (15c/kWh), it would be about $259/mo.


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (May 18, 2008)

Al-
Thanks for the fast reply-I'm trying to do the changeover in the most cost effective way possible.

1. Are your res containers just heavy storage bins?

2. Does the sulfer burner produce much of that "rotten egg" smell?

3. What is the gph/gpm rate of the res pumps? (a.mother res/b. flower res).

4. You stated in the last response that your vent system was on a thermastat---are both intake and exit on the same thermastat?

5. I notice that canna had a couple of diff options: You stated you used the veg/flor--I read they have a RO line/tap water line---what is the specific product you use?(I know you have posted the nutr. many time throu this thread but after looking at the canna site it seems there are alot of options--I would like to get it right the first time.).

6. What came first---The chicken or the egg???

Thanks again
_______________________
Dr. VonDankenstine


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 19, 2008)

DR. VonDankenstine said:


> Al-
> 1. Are your res containers just heavy storage bins?


Storage bins yes, heavy, no. Cheapest in the dollar shop. 



> 2. Does the sulfer burner produce much of that "rotten egg" smell?


Rotten egg smell is usually hydrogen sulfide, not sulfur. Sulfur itself does have a bit of a pong when evaporated but it's nothing like rotten eggs.



> 3. What is the gph/gpm rate of the res pumps? (a.mother res/b. flower res).


No idea. Enough to fill my trays to the overflow in under 4 mins, I guess.



> 4. You stated in the last response that your vent system was on a thermastat---are both intake and exit on the same thermastat?


Yes, they are on the same therm*o*stat. 


> 5. I notice that canna had a couple of diff options: You stated you used the veg/flor--I read they have a RO line/tap water line---what is the specific product you use?


I wasn't aware that Canna had anything of the sort- it's not available in Australia. The nutes I use are labelled 'Flores' and 'Vega,' nothing more. If a nutrient were made specifically for RO water, it would very likely be made to replace most of the stuff that RO takes out of tapwater, like calcium & magnesium. 



> 6. What came first---The chicken or the egg???


Easiest question yet. The egg came first. Reptiles were laying eggs long before any of them evolved into birds, much less chickens.


----------



## Kuji (May 19, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Easiest question yet. The egg came first. Reptiles were laying eggs long before any of them evolved into birds, much less chickens.


Whoa


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 19, 2008)

Kuji said:


> Whoa


Never take me to a trivia night. I annoy the fuck out of people.


----------



## dakevs (May 19, 2008)

OK. Let me just get this straight. If I have a pretty mature mother plant that has been vegetative for about 2 months, I can take cuttings and immediately induce flowering in them? 

If so, doesn't that affect the quality of the bud? Or does the plant know to start putting energy toward bud growth after achieving sufficient root mass? 

Also, how do you set up the nutrients. Though I haven't started my own op yet, I can assume that fresh clones require little to no nutrient mix at all, right?

Thanks for this post. It should be stickied, it's so informative.


----------



## CALIGROWN (May 19, 2008)

hey Al I'm running SOG now too maybe check me out...journal is in my sig......


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (May 19, 2008)

Al-
I got the tables set-up/they are true 4'X4'(inside diameter), How many of the 175mm pot should I use?(you have the knowledge on usage that would be max but not overcrowded, I plan on trimming the bottom 1/3rd and only running the colas as you stated).

I'm going to run co2 gas at 1500ppm-I fig it will take about 160 pounds of gas to run a cycle (give or take a few pounds depending on the ventilation). I will run the co2 burner in the winter when it's not to hot.

Since I'm going to use RO I will add the cal/mag to the res with the h202 and nutr.

Since I still have the supplies left and a little room, I will run a few of my sat strains due to there longer finishing times in soil till all the supplies are used up(island sweet skunk,super silver haze).

I was thinking about a test run with the ind hybs, I have to see which one likes the system best(og kush/bubba kush/grape ape/godzilla) from there I will phase out the others.

thanks again for all the info


----------



## cmak40 (May 19, 2008)

im using the same size tables and roughly the same size pots in another op i put 60 in each table. dunno if that helps, but as long as you trim them you can put 4 per sq ft thats 64 in your area minus the flood and drain area. you could fit 62 but 54-60 prob be best for ya

and try all the seeds you have. i have plenty of different strains in veg from seed right now but youll find only certain ones will be good for this style of op. my afghan kush is a for sure keeper for this srtyle for growth patterns anyway i just have to see yeild and i had pakistan valley but its a slower vegging plant so it wont be useful for this style but youll find one that works for you.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 19, 2008)

dakevs said:


> OK. Let me just get this straight. If I have a pretty mature mother plant that has been vegetative for about 2 months, I can take cuttings and immediately induce flowering in them?


 yep!



> If so, doesn't that affect the quality of the bud?


 nope!



> Or does the plant know to start putting energy toward bud growth after achieving sufficient root mass?


 I don't think that cannabis plants give too much consideration to anything. They're a bit brainless, you know.  DNA is a bit like a computer program. When presented with certain conditions, the DNA responds with certain behaviours, pre-programmed by millennia of evolution under certain conditions. 

So it happens, cannabis is indigenous to latitudes where there are cold winters. The plant manages living in this sort of climate by producing seeds at the end of the warm parts of the year. The plant itself then dies off, with the next generation sprouting from seed in the following spring. 

Cannabis takes its cue for the time of year mainly by the day length, but to a lesser degree from the overall colour or spectrum prominences of the sunlight. In summer, with long days and high sun angles, cannabis plants grow tall, so as to get their flowers up high in the air, which gives a better chance of catching some pollen. When sunlight is hitting the earth's surface at a relatively high angle, the path through the atmosphere is short and very little blue light is filtered out. Lower sun angles through the atmosphere in temperate latitudes in autumn filter out most blue light, making the autumn light appear more red-yellow. 

As such, we know that cannabis will grow in a _full _flowering habit when presented with a 12 hour day length and will grow _fully_ vegetatively when given >18h/day light. The growth habit response will be mixed with day lengths in between 12-18h. It doesn't matter whether a plant has had any veg growth when encouraged to flower. If it has had no veg growth, it just doesn't get as tall by the time it is in full flowering habit. 

The responses are really quite separate, but as anyone who has had to re-veg a previously flowered plant will tell you, the plant produces some weird growth habits, with mixed vegetative and flowering characters, when the natural annual photoperiod schedule has been defied. Fan leaves with one blade, like an oversized bud leaf, or small clusters of empty seed bracts, like those appearing on a bud, will grow at the nodes on the mainstem when a previously flowered plant goes into 18+h/day light for a few weeks. Flowering female plants whose dark period is frequently interrupted will commonly throw out some male flowers (hermaphrodism) in an attempt to self-pollinate since there is uncertainty about the day/night lengths and it may not have time to wait for pollen from another plant.

Cannabis plants don't get continuous 12/12 days in their indigenous latitudes. Their flowering response is much stronger under our artificial schedule, producing large masses of seed bracts (aka buds) where they normally only need to produce a few. 

You can see that the cannabis plant is highly manipulable when you can control the environment. This is exploited to the greatest degree by SoG, where we are actually tailoring the plant through manipulating its natural responses to grow under artificial light. Indoor lighting only can penetrate foliage so deeply (dependent upon light power output), so it makes no sense to grow tall plants indoors. Buds out of the prime range of the light will be thin & fluffy. Even the mighty 1000HPS can only penetrate about 40" from the tip-top (when lamp-leaf spacing is considered)- so your plants should be no taller. Simply by not giving the plant any vegetative cycle lighting after the clones set root and inducing flowering immediately, you get short plants which suit the light penetration. 

In SOG, mums and clones are kept in perpetual 24/0 light, meaning they are strongly vegging. It takes about 4 weeks for the veg habit to fully cease, even once put under 12/12 light. This is why they gain any height at all even though they have not had any veg time post setting root. By wk4, they're at their finishing height. 


> Also, how do you set up the nutrients. Though I haven't started my own op yet, I can assume that fresh clones require little to no nutrient mix at all, right?


 That's right. I was at one time using a weak veg nute soln for clones but found that it slowed rooting. I now use only water with 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L, pH adjusted to 5.8 for clones. They don't really need any nutes until they get into the flowering area, when they start on 1400ppm @ 5.8, which they get until harvest. 



> Thanks for this post. It should be stickied, it's so informative.


 No worries, thanks for that. The thread gets so many reads that it kinda stickies itself, though. It's rarely off the top 10. 



CALIGROWN said:


> hey Al I'm running SOG now too maybe check me out...journal is in my sig......


 cool, will look later. 



DR. VonDankenstine said:


> Al-
> I got the tables set-up/they are true 4'X4'(inside diameter), How many of the 175mm pot should I use?


I have 46 pots under each 1000.


----------



## marksantiago1968 (May 19, 2008)

hey al. i noticed your grow room was 9' tall like you said.. however i will be growing in a secret jardin dark room. the biggest one actually...(9'10" x 9'10" x 6'7"). since my max height is a little more than two feet shorter than yours, it probably might pose a problem when the plants get into the last weeks of flowering. what can u suggest? 6'7" is the highest i can work with since i have to use a grow tent... perhaps a light mover might make it work? this is a great thread u have by the way.... very promising info..


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 20, 2008)

marksantiago1968 said:


> hey al. i noticed your grow room was 9' tall


Actually, it's 8' L x 9' W x 7' H (and it's probably closer to 6'8" tall). You'll do OK.


----------



## Sativa's Son (May 20, 2008)

Al B Fuct.,
When you cut your clones you cut them at eight inches and they have thick stems. What about others who cut more traditional clones with thin stems and maybe just 4" in length? I know I can do trial and error, but to save time I was wondering if I should veg it 
until it's eight inches tall or just throw em in flowering immedietly as they are, and if I do flower as they are maybe I won't need to trim of lower 1/3, just the branching? I Have 13 square feet under 400watt cooltube. I was planning on hanging cooltube as close as two inches from canopy. My next question is(probably my biggest concern): I'm also getting a darkroom, it's 6'7 in height. 4'11 by 2'8 in length and width. I want to use the one closet for mothers clones on the bottom and flowering on top to keep a perpetual going. If it's possible and you had to, how much height would you give the mothers/clones and how much height would you give the flowering plants up above? I'm using fluorescents below and the cooltube above
Thank You for answering all my qustions so far. Your thread taught me alot. Your like my personal Jorge C.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 20, 2008)

Sativa's Son said:


> Al B Fuct.,
> When you cut your clones you cut them at eight inches and they have thick stems. What about others who cut more traditional clones with thin stems and maybe just 4" in length? I know I can do trial and error, but to save time I was wondering if I should veg it until it's eight inches tall or just throw em in flowering immedietly as they are,


Thin stemmed cuttings tend to be less vigorous overall, from speed in setting root to amount of bud produced. You _could _try to veg them a bit under a big light, but for no more than about a week. More than that and they will finish too tall. 



> and if I do flower as they are maybe I won't need to trim of lower 1/3, just the branching?


pardon?

When I talk about pruning, I'm talking about removing the branches from the lower 1/3 of the mainstem.



> I Have 13 square feet under 400watt cooltube. I was planning on hanging cooltube as close as two inches from canopy.


Too close. Cooltubes trap a lot of the radiated heat but not all of it. A 'tubed 400 should be no closer than about 6-8" to the nearest leaf. You'll cook growing tips at 2" and might see 'runny' or bolting buds later in flowering.



> how much height would you give the mothers/clones and how much height would you give the flowering plants up above?


Mums and flowering plants in flood systems both need about 6.5' vertical space to allow for the height of the tray with the tank below and adequate clearance for lights. A clonebox could potentially be only a couple feet tall.


----------



## 2stoge (May 20, 2008)

Thanks Al for responding. And soo quickly!!!
You da bomb! Good looking out!


----------



## marksantiago1968 (May 20, 2008)

hey al whats going on.... i wanted to know how many gallons your reservoirs are... for the 4'x4' systems u have...


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 20, 2008)

marksantiago1968 said:


> hey al whats going on.... i wanted to know how many gallons your reservoirs are... for the 4'x4' systems u have...


heh, you're well advised to read the thread in full. Big ask, I know... but you run into details like this one when you do. 

My trays are not 4'x4'. I am not generally accustomed to estimating in feet- I speak metric- and simply misestimated when writing post#1. I did get around to measuring them later on. They are 820mm^2 or about 2.7'^2. 

My reservoirs for the flowering trays are 125L, the one for the mums is about 50L.


----------



## marksantiago1968 (May 20, 2008)

i see.... but after converting mm to feet i found that 820mm is equal to about 2 feet 8 inches... so im a little puzzled how 20 of your 8in pots managed to fit in your tray. pls correct me if ive mistaken. this is in reference to your earlier posts by the way when you said you used about 20 or so 8in diameter pots. thx for the quik response Al.


----------



## insanestang4life (May 20, 2008)

I covered this around page 120 or so. Read the whole thing.


----------



## fanatic (May 20, 2008)

al, found something new that looks VERY interesting, the new LED lights.... what do you think? is it too good to be true?

LED Grow Lights - LightBlaze 400


----------



## grandpabear3 (May 20, 2008)

ok al...i'm almost done now.
i've got the 6"exhaust hood in the ceiling ducted to the intake on my centrif 426 cfm inline then on the discharge side i want to neck down to a 3" so i can plug it into my combo carbon filter/o3 gen by sunlight sheds. 
1.- Can i lay this carbon filter on it's side and it'll still work properly?
2.- will i hurt the fan or filter trying to push that much air through them. ( you know with the drastic reduction in size )


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 20, 2008)

marksantiago1968 said:


> i see.... but after converting mm to feet i found that 820mm is equal to about 2 feet 8 inches... so im a little puzzled how 20 of your 8in pots


 The pots are 175mm dia on the top and 130mm on the bottom. 23 fit in each tray. That's another correction you'd find if you just read the whole thread. 



fanatic said:


> al, found something new that looks VERY interesting, the new LED lights.... what do you think? is it too good to be true?
> 
> LED Grow Lights - LightBlaze 400


Absolute crap. Total bullshit. Ought to be illegal to try to sell a handful of LEDs as a replacement for a 400HPS. There's so much wrong with these that I'm not even going to start on the list. There's a reason that these lamps don't have a lumen rating. If they did, you'd find they put out about 10% of the intensity of a CFL and about 0.25% of the intensity of a 400HPS (based on the very brightest LEDs made, the Philips Luxeon line, which make 140 lumens [and incidentally, the lamp you cite does NOT use Philips Luxeons] CFLs at about 1500 lumens and a 400HPS at 55,000 lumens). 

Remember that lumens from multiple light sources don't 'add.' A pair of 140 lumen LEDs lighting the same area will apply 140 lumens to the area, not 280. Same goes for any multiple light sources. Putting dim lights next to dim lights does not give you brighter light- it gives you more sources of dim light over a certain area. If this multiple LED lamp used Luxeons, its luminous output would still not exceed the lumen rating of a single Luxeon LED.

The short answer is 'yes- too good to be true.' LEDs are _*very expensive *_toys- and you won't grow any dope with them. Anyone who thinks they will grow dope is a fool. You'd be better off trying to grow with candlelight- at least you'd get some CO2...

I'm rarely this unequivocal on matters asked of me, but I'm a bit sick of both the idiots selling this garbage and the nongs on cannabis boards trying to convince others that they actually will work in the manner advertised. They don't. 

LEDs have a future in lighting- whether that will include lights which can grow cannabis at some time in the distant future or not remains to be seen, but the simple fact is that right now, there's no such thing as an LED light that will grow cannabis successfully. Anyone taking your money for such items is a thief, plain and simple. Consider yourself warned. If you buy LEDs to grow dope, you'll get some interesting looking lights but no dope. 

If you want to grow buds, select the most powerful single HPS you can use in your space and still control temps below 26C. Cooltubes make this deadset easy.



bugsrnme said:


> ok al...i'm almost done now.
> i've got the 6"exhaust hood in the ceiling ducted to the intake on my centrif 426 cfm inline then on the discharge side i want to neck down to a 3"


You'll block about 75% of your airflow if you try to run a 6" centrif into a 3" dia duct. Find something better suited to the size of the blower. 

Use a separate blower for your aircooled hood and the main room exhaust. Air cooled lighting requires constant airflow during lights on, plus a 15 minute cooldown time after lights shut down. You can not use a thermostat on a blower which is cooling lighting. It will have to run all the time during lights-on, regardless of the room air temp. You will not be able to control room temps if you use your main blower to cool lighting. Room temp will be whatever the intake air temp is, plus a couple degrees C.


----------



## dakevs (May 20, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The method of putting clones in to flower with no vegging time keeps plants relatively short, to about 36-40" (1 metre), which better suits artificial lighting.
> 
> The mums are maintained under 24 hour 400W HPS. The clonebox has 6x 18W fluoro tubes (24"), usually on 24/7 but shut off for the first 6-8 hours after doing a new batch of cuttings.
> 
> Clones go straight from the clonebox into the flowering trays- no vegging required. They grow a little bit vegetatively for the first 3-4 weeks but then stop getting taller and start making bud weight after then.


I'm a little confused about transitioning the cuttings from mother, to clonebox, then to flowering tray.

I understand that after making your cutting, you put them in rockwool cubes, in the clonebox, with water only, with just a little bit of H202 @ 5.8 PH.

However, how long do clones stay in the clonebox? Also, I noticed you placed the rockwool cubes in another type of growing medium in the flowering trays. Is that perlite? About how much do you use? I myself was thinking of starting with one 4' x 4' flowering tray. So how much do you think I should buy initially?

Ok, and finally, I am kind of torn between using this an aeroponic system. What type of feeding system do you use? 

Sorry if you have already covered these questions already... I got to about page 30 before I couldn't take it any longer.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 20, 2008)

dakevs said:


> However, how long do clones stay in the clonebox? Also, I noticed you placed the rockwool cubes in another type of growing medium in the flowering trays. Is that perlite? About how much do you use? I myself was thinking of starting with one 4' x 4' flowering tray. So how much do you think I should buy initially?
> 
> Ok, and finally, I am kind of torn between using this an aeroponic system. What type of feeding system do you use?
> 
> Sorry if you have already covered these questions already... I got to about page 30 before I couldn't take it any longer.


I've covered these questions several, several times in the thread. 

The medium is Fytocell, the mums and flowering plants are in flood systems and the clones stay in the clonebox until they have a decent spray of roots. First roots appear in 5-7 days; profuse root formation occurs usually by day 14 in the clonebox.


----------



## potroast (May 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I've covered these questions several, several times in the thread.



Well, I couldn't find an answer to this one, and I read for 12 minutes.

I heard you should put your leaves in a grocery shopping bag to dry, and I don't have that many leaves, so can I use a lunch bag instead?


Since this has turned into a Ask Al thread, do you want me to close it and sticky it? The full story of the perpetual system is here, and the longer you drag it out, the tougher it is for folks to find the info.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2008)

potroast, the answers DO exist in the thread. 



> Originally Posted by *dakevs*
> _
> However, how long do clones stay in the clonebox? _


From post#1, page #1:



Al B. Fuct said:


> I keep about 6-8 mothers and do about 30 cuttings every 2 weeks from them.





> Also, I noticed you placed the rockwool cubes in another type of growing medium in the flowering trays. Is that perlite?


From page 27:



Al B. Fuct said:


> I probably ought to make a note about my trial of Fytocell media.





> What type of feeding system do you use?


Again, from post #1, page #1:



Al B. Fuct said:


> I use two 1000W HPS, one over each pair of 4' x 4' flood trays.


If dakevs HAD actually read *even post #1*, two of his queries would have been answered. If he actually did read the first 30 pages, he would have answered them all. 

Can you understand my frustration? Yes, it's annoying when people won't do the minimal information collection. I didn't write it because I wanted people to skip over it then feel free to abuse my courtesy in getting me to rewrite the entire response later on. 

However, you're dead right, it's far too long to be a useful reference. I've been thinking of exactly how to migrate the meat into a more usable reference, perhaps as a FAQ item. 

Yep, I do think it could be time to slam the door and do something else. If that means an 'Ask Al' thread, sure... but quite honestly, I'm most competent when dealing with queries about a rotating SoG. I don't really think I want to try to answer any question about any kind of op. Within this thread, I can reasonably specialise. 

I'm focused on growing useful amounts of quality dope without the grow op owning me. I have distilled it down into a means which does not produce the highest number of grams per sq metre, but it does produce lots of bud reliably with the smallest effort input possible.

What's the solution? Dunno.


----------



## Squeechie (May 21, 2008)

Al, what is the correct way to top off a nutes tank?
I lose about 2 gals a day in a 20 gal tank. So i add back the 2 gals then ph adj the whole tank. Im thinking that that is causing a serious problem, cause by day 7 i've add about 10 gals of tap water with ppm of 170, and diluted my nutes strength from 1400 down to bout 1100. Im starting to think that im turning my tank into hardwater and probably locking out other nutes, because in the 2nd week of the same nutes, all hell breaks lose (new leaves/shoots turn limegreen more and more everyday, leaves start to taco up, growth slows down to a halt, etc.)

Should i just top off back to 1400 ppm and then ph adj?
What happens when im down 2 gals and my ppm still reads 1400.. Are my plants drinking and feeding at the perfect rate? Do I not top off?

Thank You.


----------



## Squeechie (May 21, 2008)

One more...
Will lowering the times per day i feed, and dropping the flood level help to slow down the rate of lose in the nutes tank? I really am trying to make a 20 gal tank last for 2 wks instead of one. you know what i mean..


----------



## Squeechie (May 21, 2008)

well dakevs i guess your straw was the straw that broke the camels back.(Not mines). Well Al, we all love you.. Thanks


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2008)

Squeechie said:


> A Im starting to think that im turning my tank into hardwater and probably locking out other nutes, because in the 2nd week of the same nutes, all hell breaks lose (new leaves/shoots turn limegreen more and more everyday, leaves start to taco up, growth slows down to a halt, etc.)


 Under normal conditions, growing tips should be light, lime green. That's the active growth. When a leaf reaches the final size it will be, it'll turn darker. 

'Leaves taco up' and slow growth has me worried, though. What's your temp & RH? What's the medium? How often do you water and by what system? Could you be overwatering?

If you're dumping & cleaning every 2 weeks, there will be no ongoing accumulation of tapwater minerals. Topping up over 2 weeks for your system should not result in a significant accumulation of mineral salts. 

To test that theory, you might put a bucket of tapwater right under the lights and top it up as it drops from evaporation. Make some notes as to how much you're replacing, at what ppm, etc. I bet you find the accumulation of minerals is insignificant. At very least, you'd have to replace the entire volume of the bucket once to get the intrinsic ppm to double. 



> Should i just top off back to 1400 ppm and then ph adj?


 Yep.



> What happens when im down 2 gals and my ppm still reads 1400.. Are my plants drinking and feeding at the perfect rate? Do I not top off?


 Bingo. 

If your tank is precisely matched to the needs of the plant, the amt of water used and the amt of nutes used will remain in constant proportion. Don't top up. Ck pH- but don't be overexuberant about correcting. If you're in rockwool, it may drift up .1 every day or two. You may have to adjust 2x per wk, or if it drifts up much over 6.0. 

If the res tank is too small, where the proportion of water is used faster than the proportion of nutes, ppm will rise. Top up is needed to control nute strength. 

A tank that is too large is wasteful as the plants consumption won't come close to the amt of nutes in the tank- and it goes down the drain in 2 weeks, regardless. 



Squeechie said:


> One more...
> Will lowering the times per day i feed, and dropping the flood level help to slow down the rate of lose in the nutes tank? I really am trying to make a 20 gal tank last for 2 wks instead of one. you know what i mean..


Well, you're kinda asking 'how do I make a fuel-efficient race car?' 

If plants are growing vigorously, they will be consuming the water in their medium at great rates. The faster they're sucking it up, the better they're doing. Ideally, they are using up 1/2 to 2/3 of the water weight in each pot before they are watered again. Depriving them of _necessary_ waterings will slow them down. If you need your tank to last 2 weeks and it's near empty at the end of 1, get a tank 2x the size you have now. 



Squeechie said:


> well dakevs i guess your straw was the straw that broke the camels back.(Not mines). Well Al, we all love you..


The camel's back ain't broke just yet, but there's probably a change in format (or an Al B. holiday) in the offing.


----------



## 9inch bigbud (May 21, 2008)

videoman40 said:


> Your making me wonder if you've ever grown anything under artificial lighting.
> The lumens output you speak of is at the bulb, *not* at the plant,
> I actually thought this was understood. I am *not* disagreeing with your stated lumens,
> 
> ...


i agree with you to a point. 2 - 400watt lamps will give better light coverage than a 1000watt lamp + they can be hung much lower than a 1000watt lamp. the light from a lamp 1foot from the bulb will only be 1/2 as bright as it is at the source. light loses intensity very fast the farther away it is. ( see pic at the bottom)

recommended distance a 1000watt lamp should be hung from the top of the plants is around 2 foot, a 10000watt lamp at 2 foot will only shine 1/4th of the light from the source ie bulb.

so a 1000watt lamp that is 150,000 lumen is only shining 37500 lumens
at 2 foot away from the bulb

the recommended distance a 400watt lamp should be hung from the top of the plants is around 1 foot for a 400watt lamp
1 foot will shine 1/2 the amount of lumens of light from the bulb

so a 400watt lamp that is 50,0000 lumen is only shining 25,000 lumens at 1 foot away from the bulb.

now for the good part. you have 2 - 400 watt lamps that are in the same size room hung at 1/2 the distance of the 1000watt lamp, not only is it lower, the coverage of the plant canopy is much better than what the 1000watt will cover.

remember that light losses intensity from the bulb 
the plants on the out side of the grow room under a 1000watt will only be getting (4x4 grow room) 1/16th of light or 9,375 lumens.

where as 2 - 400watt lamps in the same space will be hung over 2x2 space each. lets use the 25,000 lumen only from just the 1 - 400watt lamp the lumens will be more than 25,000 if you use the 2 - 400s it will not be double ,but it will be more than 25,000 lumens,






1 - 400watt lamp over 2x2 foot of room will shine 25,000 lumen at one foot above the plant canopy and the plants on the out side of the canopy will be getting light 2 foot from the bulb because the 400watt is hung at only 1 foot above, the plants on the end will be getting 1/2 of the light from the original 25,000 lumens 25,000 divided 2 = 12,500 lumens

even though the 400's look the better option on paper it does not always work like that, the penetration under a 1000 watt bulb can grow heavier buds under the canopy than the 400s its that extra 12,500 lumens under the bulb and that massive bud production which makes up for the better coverage that the 2-400s offer.

the 1000 watt is the better option because after 1 crop the light of both bulbs diminish and after a few crops the 400s will not be very bright where as the 1000 will still grow fat ass buds.

over the long run its more economical to replace 1 bulb than it is to replace 2.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2008)

...and when you add cooltubes, where a 1000HPS can be spaced at 300-350mm, it's more desirable yet. Something on the order of 80K lumens at that spacing.


----------



## 9inch bigbud (May 21, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> ...and when you add cooltubes, where a 1000HPS can be spaced at 300-350mm, it's more desirable yet. Something on the order of 80K lumens at that spacing.


could not agree more i used to use 5-400's but now i only use 2-600s and 1-1000 in the 2nd room the 2 600s do not yield much more than the 1000watt on its own.

the 2-600s light a room about 24sq and the 1000 does a 16sq i might get a few more grams under the 2-600s


----------



## rdgx34 (May 21, 2008)

Hey al 

Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos

if you scroll to the bottem it shows his nutes chart. He starts from about 1050ppm(1.5ec) and slowly works up to about 1470ppm. And you start from 1400ppm all the way through. Is there pros and cons to this? or does it even really matter?

Also Im sorry but im a big time noob and im still not sure about mother plants and how to make the stems thicker. when you say cut the growing tip are you talking about the MAIN thick stem in the middle or the stems that come out of that main stem. And do you cut right before the leaves, so the leaves fall off of it?


Thanks!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2008)

rdgx34 said:


> you start from 1400ppm all the way through. Is there pros and cons to this? or does it even really matter?


Clones are mature plants, albeit with a new root system. They can handle 1400ppm from the get-go, no ramp-up required. 

Seedlings, on the other hand, are a bit more delicate and should be ramped up, starting at about 500-800ppm and jumping a couple 100 ppm every week or so until you're at 1400.



> When you say cut the growing tip are you talking about the MAIN thick stem in the middle or the stems that come out of that main stem.


Both!



> And do you cut right before the leaves, so the leaves fall off of it?


Have a look at my thread on cloning. Pix there.


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 21, 2008)

AL! I finnaly got most of my equipment in! 
I have 4 3x3 flood systems the reseviors are 30gallons each
But i was wondering if i could just use two systems with 1 resevior? 
So that way instead of changing 4 reseviors every 2 weeks i can just change 2. 

Ill post some pictures when i get everything set up 
Thanks AL!


----------



## rdgx34 (May 21, 2008)

Quote:
And do you cut right before the leaves, so the leaves fall off of it? 
Have a look at my thread on cloning. Pix there.

Sorry I meant when you cut the main stems not cloning, Do you cut the main stem at the end where the leaves are? So the leaves fall off when you cut? 
Sorry im trying to understand


----------



## rdgx34 (May 21, 2008)

I mean when you cut the growing tips


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2008)

firsttimegrowerr said:


> AL! I finnaly got most of my equipment in!
> I have 4 3x3 flood systems the reseviors are 30gallons each
> But i was wondering if i could just use two systems with 1 resevior?


Sure, if that rez is 60 gallons.

If you try to run 2 trays off 1x 30gal tank, I think you'll see the ppm jump up quite a lot every day. You'll be topping up with water frequently, if not daily. My 125L tanks are 1/3 empty when the trays are being flooded. That gives close to 2/3 of the tank as headroom for water consumption. Remember that the pump has to remain submerged, requiring a minimum level of about 1/4 the tank volume. If you use a single 125L tank for 2 trays, 2/3 of the tank will be up in the trays when flooding. You'd have a difference between 1/4 and 1/3 of the tank as headroom for water consumption. That would be sucked up in only a couple of days by 2 trays worth of vigorous plants. 



> So that way instead of changing 4 reseviors every 2 weeks i can just change 2.


Can't see the difference myself, other than it'll be a lot harder to find 60gal (250L) tubs as easily as you can get 30 gal (125L) at the dollar shop.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2008)

rdgx34 said:


> Quote:
> Sorry I meant when you cut the main stems not cloning, Do you cut the main stem at the end where the leaves are? So the leaves fall off when you cut?
> Sorry im trying to understand


Ok, I've said that when you are putting a new clone in to be raised as a mother, you nip off the growing tip to force growth to divide. I've provided pictures. I don't know what else I can do to make you understand what to do.


----------



## rdgx34 (May 21, 2008)

Sorry Al, I think my question is where is the growing tip? If you have the time can you circle it in a picture? Sorry for asking dumb questions just trying to make it clear.

Thanks AL


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 21, 2008)

Thanks Al dont know what id do without you =)


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2008)

rdgx34 said:


> Sorry Al, I think my question is where is the growing tip? If you have the time can you circle it in a picture? Sorry for asking dumb questions just trying to make it clear.




growing tip being removed 



three growing tips removed. Click to enlarge. 

It's real obvious what's happening here if you just look. If not, perhaps you should take up knitting instead.


----------



## daddychrisg (May 22, 2008)

Hang in there Al, you are a saint for sticking with this thread this long....I would add a snappy question for ya, but I think I will digress...I can't wait for your next thread! Maybe next time you can focus your teachings even more, for example....How to roll a joint in less then 5 min. or perhaps, how to screw in your HID light bulb, or even, How to start a thread that will make you need to smoke all your pot to relieve your repetitive answers to already answered questions....Thanks for what you do... C


----------



## PlasmaRadio (May 22, 2008)

Yeah, we do need some new questions... can you grow pot on the moon? Is it possible to build a robot that will grow weed for me (and not kill me a la terminator)? What does the "B" stand for?


----------



## DR. VonDankenstine (May 22, 2008)

Al-
I was talking to a growing buddy of mine about your set-up(he's been into drip hydro for a long while) and he really liked the idea a lot, I directed him to this link. Anyway I know in one of the prev post we were talking about the high cost of canna boost per flowering cycle(especially with the SOG set-up.) 

My friend uses the canna products and has for some time with great results, but he swears by a product called "floralicious plus concentrate". It's by general hydro or something--he says it has a ton of good things in it that the plants just love, he also stated that he has had as just good results with the FPC as the canna boost if not better.

I did a little research for you and found out that the stuff is about 160.00/gallon online-probably 20% more at your local hydro shop. That does seem like a lot but when you fig. you use about 500-600 gallons of h20 on a 8 week cycle in your res's. ******here's the beautiful thing about the prod***********one teaspoon treats 20/gallons @ full strength*********---That would mean the cost would come out to 4-5 dollars per 8 week cycle and one gallon would do 38 cycles(enough to last a few years). Of coarse, you would probably want a smaller size but that was the only size I could find at the time. It seems the product and the price are right. I hope if anything, this will give you further info to look into. Thanks again for all the help.​


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 22, 2008)

daddychrisg said:


> Hang in there Al, you are a saint for sticking with this thread this long....I would add a snappy question for ya, but I think I will digress...


I'm reasonably well informed that they don't often let atheists become saints. Exceptions could be made, I'm sure, given the broadly malleable nature of belief. 



> I can't wait for your next thread! Maybe next time you can focus your teachings even more,


zomfg, I feel like a Buddha. Or two. 



> for example....How to roll a joint in less then 5 min.


It takes me 10. I'm lousy at rolling. Always have been. I can't even make a spring roll with a rice paper wrap. If it hadn't been for Dugouts, I'd have given up smoking dope. 



> or perhaps, how to screw in your HID light bulb,


Would you believe... there really is some special instruction for screwing in an HPS light bulb?  Wear cotton gloves and clean the lamp surface with methylated spirit (denatured alcohol) before lighting for the first time. Smart to mark the installation date with a permanent marker on the lamp's screw cap and on the glass on the tube's nose. I relamp every 12-18 mos. 



> or even, How to start a thread that will make you need to smoke all your pot to relieve your repetitive answers to already answered questions....


Strangely enough, those sorts of things seem to happen on their own... 



> Thanks for what you do... C


no worries. 



PlasmaRadio said:


> Yeah, we do need some new questions... can you grow pot on the moon?


Whooooo. Good one. Of course, you'd have to provide a rather good glasshouse, airtight, with an atmosphere. Now, the fun begins when you work out what the lighting conditions are on the moon. No atmosphere outside your glasshouse, so lots of sunlight (and UV... and gamma rays....) How long is a lunar day? Where on the moon would you locate your grow op so it got 12/12 lighting? Endless!

However, it would certainly be possible to put an ordinary artificially lighted hydroponic grow op on the moon or on a space station. Hydroponics goes back to the Aztecs but it is the main means considered for food production in space. 


> Is it possible to build a robot that will grow weed for me (and not kill me a la terminator)?


Yes. There are already nearly fully automated hydroponic rose production operations. It would be somewhat impractical to robotically produce less than warehouse sized quantities due to the mechanisation involved, but with CAD/CAM, all things are possible. 



> What does the "B" stand for?


I'm not sure. Will ask old Mother Fuct one of these days. I'm fairly sure I'm not named after my weird Uncle Butt. He's changed his name by deed poll. Now it's spelt 'Butte' but still pronounced 'butt.' If I was gonna spend the $72 to change my name, I think I'd be looking for more bang for the buck, if you see what I mean. My sister Royal Lee has a pretty name, lot nicer than my nieces Ghett and Jusst. _*What *_was Roy thinking? We're all kinda hoping that Jusst doesn't do the hyphenated name trip if she marries that George Look boy. Imagine... Jusst Fuct-Look. eek. 



DR. VonDankenstine said:


> Al-
> he swears by a product called "floralicious plus concentrate". It's by general hydro or something-


Thanks for the heads up. 

To be deadly honest, I generally avoid what I refer to as 'magic sauces,' which are any proprietary mixtures of something or another and whose makers claim all manner of benefits. Few have been trialled in peer-reviewed or double blind studies. These things are not unlike the patent medicines of the 19th century, where ingredients were secret and not always safe. 

Canna are better than a lot of magic sauce makers as they will sometimes give you a scientific basis for what their particular magic goo is supposed to do and what's actually in it, such as PK-13-14. I don't think they're so generous with Boost, Rhizotonic, etc. 

It's often very hard to gauge the real benefit of magic sauces. If trialling something, you should run plants in parallel with and without the sauce under test instead of trying to compare differences between successive whole crops. This will come close to assuring that differences between crops were not due to differing environmental conditions in the op between trials.


----------



## cmak40 (May 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> growing tip being removed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i know whats goin on here al and how to top im just askin a quik ?, you top so that those 2 nodes that will be new growth are your clones correct? and from the time you pinch it takes about 2 weeks to be large enuf for clones?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 23, 2008)

cmak40 said:


> i know whats goin on here al and how to top im just askin a quik ?, you top so that those 2 nodes that will be new growth are your clones correct?


Yes, the new growth post the pruning will be the material used for the next pass of cuttings.



> and from the time you pinch it takes about 2 weeks to be large enuf for clones?


Yep!


----------



## PlasmaRadio (May 23, 2008)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Whooooo. Good one. Of course, you'd have to provide a rather good glasshouse, airtight, with an atmosphere. Now, the fun begins when you work out what the lighting conditions are on the moon. No atmosphere outside your glasshouse, so lots of sunlight (and UV... and gamma rays....) How long is a lunar day? Where on the moon would you locate your grow op so it got 12/12 lighting? Endless!


I would put it right here: Tycho (crater)

Only because I am a romantic and love making people read wikipedia articles. It takes 29.5 days to get around this big ol' marble we call the Earth and it generally the same side always faces out(you now it as the evil far side of the moon), so it wouldn't matter where you put it would a few days of light then a few days of darkness. Either way it's crummy for growing plants.

You would have to grow indoors, with aeroponics because there isn't a lot of water up there and I don't want to carry up all those cases of Evian. Other than slamming up some solar panels/batteries for electricity and a few exercise bikes for CO2 it would be pretty standard op... with moon gravity!

That was a cool thought experiment, maybe I should get my Fungineering degree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Series_Has_Landed


----------



## fanatic (May 23, 2008)

Al,
I stumbled with an issue in my op. I am getting air cooled reflectors for my 600W lamps, however, my rooms are completely sealed. Only the AC has an access to outside air. 
Will it be alright if I put the exhausts inside the room?, there's an AC, fully turned on all the time.


----------



## cmak40 (May 23, 2008)

fanatic said:


> Al,
> I stumbled with an issue in my op. I am getting air cooled reflectors for my 600W lamps, however, my rooms are completely sealed. Only the AC has an access to outside air.
> Will it be alright if I put the exhausts inside the room?, there's an AC, fully turned on all the time.


if you use tubes you prob wont need the ac and if u use ac u shouldnt need to cool your room anymore or you should rethink the design of your room....


----------



## fanatic (May 23, 2008)

the climate in my city is tropical. I absolutely need the ac. besides, maybe it would be a good idea to redirect the heat away from the plants, towards another area in the room. However, i'm not so sure, I dont know if the extra amps (I kep a close eye on the electric consumption) are worth it


----------



## dertmagert (May 23, 2008)

fanatic said:


> the climate in my city is tropical. I absolutely need the ac. besides, maybe it would be a good idea to redirect the heat away from the plants, towards another area in the room. However, i'm not so sure, I dont know if the extra amps (I kep a close eye on the electric consumption) are worth it



u definately NEED exhaust and intake.. i dont see how you could grow in a completely enclosed environment. aside from the plants co2 intake (which it definately wont receive in a sealed room, unless suplimented) you would have a humidity problem for sure. i would think of a completely sealed grow room as i would a port-a-poddy with no ventilation... hard to take a piss in there huh? 

u need a hole in the room to intake fresh air, and an exhaust hole that is powered by a fan to expell the plants' waste ( oxygen) as well as maintain the humidity ... i dont care how great your temp is with that AC.. i would rather run a 90 degree grow with great exhaust/intake than i would run a 75 degree grow thats sealed off from fresh air

how would u like it if you were inclosed in a room that had no usable gases being introduced but you were cooled by an ac...
(picture yourself in a casket with no available air floating on frigid waters)


----------



## cmak40 (May 24, 2008)

k its about time to close this thread i think to it gets jacked every other day about some bs. would you consider an "ask al about sog ebb n flow hydroponics, guaranteed clones advice on not growing dope" or somin maybe a little better......but this is a traffic jam and there should be a way to pull all your post out with the quotes of the people you are answering.....*(STAFF, CAN YA?) *
anyway al thanx for everythin on here its all helped one of us in one way or another!!!


----------



## daddychrisg (May 24, 2008)

Long live "get a harvest every two weeks"! one of the best threads in the history of RIU......


----------



## firsttimegrowerr (May 24, 2008)

Why end this thread? This is the best thread ever!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 24, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for the praises of the thread. 

However, I think it's probably an appropriate time now to say 'so long and thanks for all the hits.' Plus, being that I haven't had any time off from the op (or the cannabis boards) for a while, I'm going to get lost for a while. 



If you can read this, you know where I'm going. 

Thanks to everyone- I'll be back in a few weeks.

bula bula!


----------



## bongjockey (May 24, 2008)

bula bula Al! Have fun but stay away from the big town on the big island.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 24, 2008)

Thanks- I will do both, bongjockey. 

Folks, bj happens to be a personal friend of mine and is new here. Beej is a long time grower, lives local to me and runs an op a bit like mine, only smaller. DO be kind.

OK- NOW I'm outta here. Sayonara.


----------



## bongjockey (May 24, 2008)

thanks Al, see you in a while.


----------



## DrGreenFinger (May 24, 2008)

stay up, safe, and come back. thanx for everything.


----------



## daddychrisg (May 24, 2008)

Next thread.....How to go on Vacation every 2 months....Be well, and wishing you the best....C


----------



## bongjockey (May 24, 2008)

no- 'how to live on vacation' 

Al's worked it out, he winges a lot but he ain't got it so bad. 

after all he got me to babysit while he is away, eh, lucky bastard


----------



## daddychrisg (May 24, 2008)

no- 'how to live on vacation'






Al's worked it out, he winges a lot but he ain't got it so bad. 

after all he got me to babysit while he is away, eh, lucky bastard






*Killer, so are you filling in on this thread also?*


----------



## GoodFriend (May 24, 2008)

welcome to RIU bong buddy!


----------

