# best nutrients to use in hydro



## Bernie420 (Mar 29, 2018)

What nutrient line should I be using in a hydro set up? What are you rockin?

40-50 gallon water changes
inexpensive
excellent quality
excellent results
ebb and flow
hydroton
r.o. water, can add some tap if needed
ease of use (not that it matters i guess)

Is there a powder nutrient I can/should be using in my hydro setup?
Doesn't really have to be a complete line from a manufacture. I can mix manufacturers products if needed.
TIA


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## Michael Huntherz (Mar 29, 2018)

Look into the Jack’s 3-2-1 system, I would say. It is very popular.
Personally, I run Oasis Hydro 4-1-4 (same company as Jack’s) and add 200-300ppm of MKP per gallon in flower.


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## jimihendrix1 (Mar 29, 2018)

Chem Gro.

Specifically formulated for weed by a company that's been doing specific plant formulas for 45 years.

Buy

Basic Formula....4-20-39

Calcium Nitrate.. 15.5 -0 -0

Mag Sulfate.. Buy Locally/Epsom Salts

Mono Potassium Phosphate


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## Bernie420 (Mar 29, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Chem Gro.
> 
> Specifically formulated for weed by a company that's been doing specific plant formulas for 45 years.
> 
> ...


You try this? How did it go? More pushin for the cushin?


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## jimihendrix1 (Mar 29, 2018)

I just bought 5lbs each of 4-20-39

and the Calcium Nitrate 15.5 -0-0

Will buy Magnesium Sulphate locally, and order Mono Potassium Phosphate next week.

My buddy has used this company for 20 years, but the Weed Formula hasn't been out that long. Long enough, but this is a good company.


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## Cold$moke (Mar 29, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Chem Gro.
> 
> Specifically formulated for weed by a company that's been doing specific plant formulas for 45 years.
> 
> ...


Same


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## Bernie420 (Mar 30, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Same


Smoke you been running this setup? you get good results? yield/ flavor? If you do run this you go by the recipe posted in the hydro-gardens website?

........................................................

Thinking about pulling the trigger and doing this. Those four things is all I need? Nothing else.

No Mono Potassium Phosphate after week four?


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## Michael Huntherz (Mar 30, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> I just bought 5lbs each of 4-20-39
> 
> and the Calcium Nitrate 15.5 -0-0
> 
> ...


My mix is very similar to that, in the final analysis, sounds like.
I don’t always push the P as hard as I am guessing they do, but sometimes I do end up at about 4-6-8 toward harvest.


Bernie420 said:


> Smoke you been running this setup? you get good results? yield/ flavor? If you do run this you go by the recipe posted in the hydro-gardens website?
> 
> ........................................................
> 
> ...


I run Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP) in increasing amounts through flower, depending on the strains I am working.


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## Cold$moke (Mar 30, 2018)

You dont need it but i bought it because i wanted every thing on the burchet(sp) feed chart

I have a grow going now and it is my first run with it so far im very pleased.

Super easy to work with but you need a scale.

I havent finished a full run yet but im in week 5 of flower now 

I actually am just using the feed chart as a guide

Cause its very concentrated if you follow the recipe 

I am trying to run it on some seedlings i have going .

But im not use to a full synthetic nutrient 
So i have never really gone too far over 1000 ppm.

And their feed chart has you hitting a 1000ppm 
Pretty fast 

I gota run out but I'll be back later


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## Michael Huntherz (Mar 30, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Smoke you been running this setup? you get good results? yield/ flavor? If you do run this you go by the recipe posted in the hydro-gardens website?
> 
> ........................................................
> 
> ...


I like the feeding schedule, looks pretty legit to me, and it has good endorsements from everyone I have talked to who uses it,
Do it!
https://hydro-gardens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Burchetts-recipe-2017.pdf


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## Cold$moke (Mar 30, 2018)

Might just be my set up but its on the hot side for me following the recipe lol

I use the guide for the ratios to use for the different salts but so far i really like it 


The fact that it's clear ish is a huge bonus in rdwc


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## Bernie420 (Mar 30, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Might just be my set up but its on the hot side for me following the recipe lol
> 
> I use the guide for the ratios to use for the different salts but so far i really like it
> 
> ...


Well besides this or that I think i've figured out what I have been doing wrong. So I can fix those things but one of them is I think i havn't been feeding enough in flower at about 1100ppms max in full flower. I dont think that is enough anymore. So that's why I want a cheaper nutrient so I can use more to get higher ppms and not have it cost me a bunch. 

So im gunna get the nutes and use the chart as a guide and just go by ppms start at about 400 for little guys and 700 ppms for veg and bump up each week through flower starting at about 900ppms and finish at about 1600ppms for like week 6 then back it down the last 2-3 weeks.


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## Bernie420 (Mar 30, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> I just bought 5lbs each of 4-20-39
> 
> and the Calcium Nitrate 15.5 -0-0
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the nutrients.



Michael Huntherz said:


> Look into the Jack’s 3-2-1 system, I would say. It is very popular.
> Personally, I run Oasis Hydro 4-1-4 (same company as Jack’s) and add 200-300ppm of MKP per gallon in flower.


It took me 36 hours to figure out was mpk was. I have always just gone by pk boost which for me is moab I get at the local store but thats 30 for a half pound when I can get it oniline at 15 for 5 pounds from the website that jimi told me. 

thanks for the info


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## Michael Huntherz (Mar 30, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Might just be my set up but its on the hot side for me following the recipe lol
> 
> I use the guide for the ratios to use for the different salts but so far i really like it
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good product line for sure. How “hot” a mix is depends on a lot of factors, clearly, including grow method and strain being grown. I have no doubt that would be a bit hot for some cases.


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## Cold$moke (Mar 30, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Well besides this or that I think i've figured out what I have been doing wrong. So I can fix those things but one of them is I think i havn't been feeding enough in flower at about 1100ppms max in full flower. I dont think that is enough anymore. So that's why I want a cheaper nutrient so I can use more to get higher ppms and not have it cost me a bunch.
> 
> So im gunna get the nutes and use the chart as a guide and just go by ppms start at about 400 for little guys and 700 ppms for veg and bump up each week through flower starting at about 900ppms and finish at about 1600ppms for like week 6 then back it down the last 2-3 weeks.


Sounds like a plan

I was going to say a meter will help but you got that covered


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## Cold$moke (Mar 31, 2018)

So far its cheap, high quality, fully soluble, clear (ish).

So far im enjoying it but will know for sure how i like it after this 5 pounds is getting low.


One thing i will add is most nutrients ph swing from 5.8 -6.3

This stuff goes backwards it swings down from 6.4 to 5.?

I spent the first few weeks wondering why my ph was dropping hella fast.

Now i know lol set it high and it goes down.

Whichnis actually badass as when you top up it brings the ph back up works awsome so far.

I havevent been able to fry a seedling to bad with it either 

Oh yea it does have a somewhat unique odor
That i think will work well with weed

As i have found every nutrient imparts a certain flavor 

Well see how it is in a few weeks come harvest.

But i think its a reputable company because they have been going since the 60s and for a small company to be around that long is doing somthing right.


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## ttystikk (Mar 31, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> So far its cheap, high quality, fully soluble, clear (ish).
> 
> So far im enjoying it but will know for sure how i like it after this 5 pounds is getting low.
> 
> ...


You use the same amount of the mix as calcium nitrate? I'm curious about your ratios.

I've been running Chem Gro 5-11-26 for many years now, also mostly in RDWC.


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## jimihendrix1 (Mar 31, 2018)

Yes, 4-20-39 is mixed at the same rate as the 15.5 - 0 - 0 Calcium Nitrate.


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## ttystikk (Mar 31, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Yes, 4-20-39 is mixed at the same rate as the 15.5 - 0 - 0 Calcium Nitrate.


So a 1:1 ratio, cool.

How much mag sulfate?


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## jimihendrix1 (Mar 31, 2018)

60% by weight.

Say it takes 100 Grams each of 4 - 20-39/Calcium Nitrate per 100 Gallons Water

It takes 60 grams for MG Sulfate


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## Cold$moke (Mar 31, 2018)

Im still learning its nuances 

But the highest i took them was 1180 ppm
Which was 
2gr 4-20
2 gr cal N
1.8 gr mag sul per gal.
This was a bit hot it didnt burn them but they did not drop the ppm just sat there lol

So now in week five of bloom

I gave 
1.5 gr 420
1.5 gr cal N 
1.25gr mag sul
And .5 gr mpk per gallon 
Came out to like 1080 (my water is 180 start ppm) so 900 ppm 

No tip burn or curling
So next week im going to bump them
Up to 1gr per gallon of mpk

If they like that i might bump em one last time before i taper off cause I think i got a 12 weeker lol


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## Cold$moke (Mar 31, 2018)

To be fair though running the rdwc's they normally say you can run at a lower ppm then other systems


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## Michael Huntherz (Mar 31, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> To be fair though running the rdwc's they normally say you can run at a lower ppm then other systems


Even more true of aeroponics, as I understand it. The high pressure aero cats claim they run 1/2 the nutes of other methods.


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## ttystikk (Mar 31, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> To be fair though running the rdwc's they normally say you can run at a lower ppm then other systems


Assuming your PPM reasons are on the EC x 500 scale, that's a bit over 2.1, almost 2.2.

I ran EC 1.5 and the girls loved it.


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## Cold$moke (Mar 31, 2018)

ttystikk said:


> Assuming your PPM reasons are on the EC x 500 scale, that's a bit over 2.1, almost 2.2.
> 
> I ran EC 1.5 and the girls loved it.


I run x700 scale

My mind doesnt work well with ec for some reason lol


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## Cold$moke (Mar 31, 2018)

Michael Huntherz said:


> Even more true of aeroponics, as I understand it. The high pressure aero cats claim they run 1/2 the nutes of other methods.


You know a few years ago I thought about it.

But the maintenance from runnin a low pressure aero setup taught me better 

I hate clogged sprayers lol but i love aero cloners 

And i try to make my set ups somewhat fails safe which i didnt think hp aero would be
So i chose rdwc cause i figured if all my pumps died they woyld still be in water and would not die 

But now im going to do another system build lol
To do a side by side with my rdwc and a meniscus nft hybrid
To see if it can be as productive as rdwc 
With no fangled pumps and uniseals and all the other bull shit that comes with rdwc lol

I love rdwc but i dont see ANY major farms doing this lol there must be reasons


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## Budley Doright (Mar 31, 2018)

I just started to run Megacrop after reading a lot of good reviews, seems to be a one stop shop. Going to order the bigger bag on Monday. I put 1.5 tbls in 100 litres and EC is .6 today.


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## Bernie420 (Mar 31, 2018)

Well the first thing I guess I got to do if I was smart about it is to start where i'll end up and get some jacks 321, chem-grow, megacrop, master blend, oasis hydro and mix them all up and see what happens. I'll call it the "mystery nutrient" but when you say it you have to use "air quotes". It'll go good with my "mystery tea" which is my compost tea fixins/soil topper.


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## ttystikk (Mar 31, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> I run x700 scale
> 
> My mind doesnt work well with ec for some reason lol


1180/700= EC 1.68 peak.

That's about where I'm at.


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## ttystikk (Mar 31, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> You know a few years ago I thought about it.
> 
> But the maintenance from runnin a low pressure aero setup taught me better
> 
> ...


Most major commercial operations here in Colorado use Coco DTW and then throw the substrate away every run.

They do it because of environmental regulations prohibiting them from putting spent nutes down the drain. I guess filling up landfills is better?


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## ttystikk (Mar 31, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Well the first thing I guess I got to do if I was smart about it is to start where i'll end up and get some jacks 321, chem-grow, megacrop, master blend, oasis hydro and mix them all up and see what happens. I'll call it the "mystery nutrient" but when you say it you have to use "air quotes". It'll go good with my "mystery tea" which is my compost tea fixins/soil topper.


Lol

You'll earn your handle, 'Bernie'


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## Cold$moke (Mar 31, 2018)

ttystikk said:


> Most major commercial operations here in Colorado use Coco DTW and then throw the substrate away every run.
> 
> They do it because of environmental regulations prohibiting them from putting spent nutes down the drain. I guess filling up landfills is better?


Ha ha thats a shame

But i would pilfer the coco landfil if i lived there haha 

I know an old grower with a few dump loads of promix before i converted him to hydro lol

I still go and get a truck load every summer for the veggies


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## Cold$moke (Mar 31, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Well the first thing I guess I got to do if I was smart about it is to start where i'll end up and get some jacks 321, chem-grow, megacrop, master blend, oasis hydro and mix them all up and see what happens. I'll call it the "mystery nutrient" but when you say it you have to use "air quotes". It'll go good with my "mystery tea" which is my compost tea fixins/soil topper.


Wooaa dont do that 
Pick one ,any of the ones you listed should work fine 

I was down to hydro gardens, mega crop and veg +bloom

I chose chem gro 4-20 because i have used brown nutes for 10 years or so and i wanted bone white roots again lol

Chem gro is almost clear  if you are in a media it doesnt matter cause you wont see it


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## Bernie420 (Apr 1, 2018)

ttystikk said:


> Lol
> 
> You'll earn your handle, 'Bernie'


What if I fed going by a ppm meter ... no burn



Cold$moke said:


> Wooaa dont do that
> Pick one ,any of the ones you listed should work fine
> 
> I was down to hydro gardens, mega crop and veg +bloom
> ...


I picked chem-grow 4/20/39 cuz it was the first one mentioned and it has 4/20 in it. It should be on order if my ordering dept. got it done last night.

...................................................................................................

_So does the chem-gro have the kelp, b vitamins, amino acids and silica like the mega crop says it does?_?? Those are all things I like to use... been using, going to want to keep using??? 

so if I mix the the two and i'll get a chem-gro megacrop 13.7/30.5/53 add the calcium nitrate then it'll be a 29.2/30.5/53 use my ppm meter to regulate how much its getting feed and I dont have to buy anything else. Sounds legit to me, whats the down side? I've done dumber things and I do like to play scientist.


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## jimihendrix1 (Apr 1, 2018)

Its like taking to many vitamins.

Youll pee out what you don't use, and the 1s that are stored in the plant/body will eventually build up, poison it.

More isn't always better. The main things, ( ONLY THINGs ) that matter is Bioavailability, and Correct Chemical Ratios.

The correct Ratio for weed is 9.5 x 20 x 39. No More, No Less. I'm sure these is small variation, and Chem Gro even says some strains may benefit from more Iron, and Magnesium.

But to add anything else is both overkill, unnecessary, and potentially harmful.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 1, 2018)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I wouldn't be giving it more just mixing the two and using that just like if I only bought one product. If there both similar and one has kelp silica amino acid and b vitamins i dont see the downside even if it would be diluted in the product mix at least I'll have a little bit of those things in the solution working for me when I do a water change. Less is more and more isnt always better. 

I wouldnt have to buy anything else I use kelp for the roots in veg, b vitamins before flip. amino to help with calcium uptake and silica for strong stems/plant cells.

The thing that is getting me on this is the amino acid and not having to buy any in a bottle anymore, plus the other things i guess. I dont really use b vitamins much but the kelp, amino acid and silica I do.

I probably wont do this at first cuz i guess it seems like i'll be able to get it done with just the chem-gro, but I might later. IDK. Dont I need kelp, silica, b vitamins and amino acid in my grow. 

anything else in the chem-gro they cant advertise I need to know about??

In my simple non-scientific mind tells me this is possible. Im just hell of tired of spending money on liquid nutrients and then there is the plastic waste and getting rid of empty containers all the time etc. etc. Tired of all of it i want to be scoop scoop check check done.


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## Budley Doright (Apr 1, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Its like taking to many vitamins.
> 
> Youll pee out what you don't use, and the 1s that are stored in the plant/body will eventually build up, poison it.
> 
> ...


So the extras in megacrop are overkill? I’ve been following the reviews and it seems to be doing well for all that are using it. I really do think the L amino that I added separate has really helped with blotching due to water chemistry but it’s all ancedotal, although the blotching went away


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## Cold$moke (Apr 1, 2018)

Best NOT to mix 2 nutrients unless your a chemistry wizz 

Your starting to sound a little silly with the whole find a new formula by mixing others lol

I like kelp and other things too and after i get the nutrients dialed in i intend on blending some stuff together with the chem gro.

But they will be individual elements. And nothing that will fuck with the chem grow lol


If you wanted all that stuff to begin with you should have chosen mega crop.


Because nutes with bio stimulants will behave a certain way and be taken up by the plant differently then a full synthetic does.

Just all in all a bad idea.

But i have done it too, so im talking from experience budd as i like to experiment my self.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 1, 2018)

Basically 
If you want to add all that stuff to the chem gro you should buy yhe individual shit from kelp 4 less

Then try to mix mega crop with the chem gro.


Remember if im correct mega crop is just a dry reverse engineered avanced nutrients 

I used advanced for years and i wanted something different .



Also it sounds like the RAW nute lines is right up your alley as well


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## Cold$moke (Apr 1, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Its like taking to many vitamins.
> 
> Youll pee out what you don't use, and the 1s that are stored in the plant/body will eventually build up, poison it.
> 
> ...


Agreed to a point because after i learn the chem gro better i also intended to blend some bio stimulants into it

Just not a whole nutrient line lol


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## Budley Doright (Apr 1, 2018)

Just. For the record I don’t think mixing would be good either lol. But hey if you want to experiment by all means . I’d be interested to see how it all works .


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## jimihendrix1 (Apr 1, 2018)

HHHHHHHMMMMMM.

About.... Amino Acids.... HHHHHMMMM

What Are Amino Acids ????? HHHHHMMMMM.

Building Blocks of Protein..... HHHHHMMMMMM

HMM. In Human Beings when we Eat Protein, it Turns Into Nitrogen in the Body. Plant sidesteps this, and is fed Nitrogen. Either Chemical, or Organic. It all breaks down to the same thing in the end, but chemicals aren't benefical to normal soil vs organics.

#1.. As Human Beings, We Eat/Drink Protein for our Amino Acids. Or take Pills ect. Some may even IV them.

Amino Acids are What???

Building Blocks of Protein.

What does Protein Do When It Enters the Body ???? HHHHHMMMMM? Turns to Nitrogen.

Supply with the Correct Ratio From the Beginning, and anything else is a Waste, of Money.

It Turns To Nitrogen.

Ever hear of the term Anabolic?? It meant to Build Up.

Catabolic ???? Tear Down.

Anabolic Means You are in Positive Nitrogen Balance, thus indicating you are getting a Constant Supply of Protein/Amino Acids to Remain Anabolic, and Not Go Catabolic, and are not using Lean Tissue for Energy.

Same for a Plant.

If you supply it with All of the Nitrogen ( Amino Acids ) it Needs, and then further supply it with even more Protein/Amino Acids, its probably not for the Positive.

You cannot force something to absorb more than you can absorb. Its that simple. While I'm also a firm believer you need extra protein if working out really hard, but if you overboard, all youre really doing is stressing your kidneys. You can only use so much.

Plant aint no different.

Also remember.

For Every Action, There Is an Equal, and Opposite Reaction. IMHO no use mucking with a proven formula.


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## Budley Doright (Apr 1, 2018)

Like I said earlier it’s all ancedotal but the blotching did go away when I started using Vitanimo (botanicare).


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## blowincherrypie (Apr 1, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> I just started to run Megacrop after reading a lot of good reviews, seems to be a one stop shop. Going to order the bigger bag on Monday. I put 1.5 tbls in 100 litres and EC is .6 today.


Ya MC has been a blessing for me. I was using Jacks but wound up needing to add like 3 other shits to it. So far MC has been working as advertised and I honestly couldn't believe the price. They were running a 50% off deal through their website for the big bag a little over a month ago.. Should last a while to say the least


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## Cold$moke (Apr 1, 2018)

Just add brawndo its got what plants crave


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## Bernie420 (Apr 1, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Best NOT to mix 2 nutrients unless your a chemistry wizz
> 
> Your starting to sound a little silly with the whole find a new formula by mixing others lol
> 
> ...


I hear ya it doesnt sound that weird to me though. Ive been mixing up stuff for a long time now, throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks i guess . Just never the right way and I know thats what is holding me back cuz everything else other than how/what I feed the girls is dialed in. You cant learn if you dont fail.
.............................................................................................

Ive probably screwed up and fixed almost every crop ive had in one


Cold$moke said:


> Agreed to a point because after i learn the chem gro better i also intended to blend some bio stimulants into it
> 
> Just not a whole nutrient line lol


what bio stimulants are you thinking adding. Me and you are thinking the exact same way, both tired of the liquid nute bs, kind of scaring me. I read your thread about this same subject today. I want some farm grade shit.

I m gunna use a root stimulant like kelp or roots excellurator, rhizoblast with the chem-gro and probably get some silica in there as well. I dont wnat to ad amino acid was using amino aid from soul. I guess I dont need amino acid if I read the other guys post right idk I should start a thread on that subject alone. I know I dont want to buy it anymore.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 1, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> HHHHHHHMMMMMM.
> 
> About.... Amino Acids.... HHHHHMMMM
> 
> ...


I hear ya but its not wrapping around my brain. I heard the building blocks of protein thing learned that in third grade. Just dont know what these protein blocks are oh look time for recess.

What I know about amino acid is what I got from harley and that amino acid helps with the uptake of calcium. So in my mind it sounds like I could use the help getting the calcium in there. Now is that just for dirt. Cuz everything i've learned is from the dirt people and have had to apply it to my hydro. I do have dirt mothers never gave them amino acid come to think of it. Probably dont even need it and have been wasting the money on it and screwing up my plants metabolism all this time.

Plants are a lot like people in so many ways when you think about it. 

thanks for the post.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 1, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Just. For the record I don’t think mixing would be good either lol. But hey if you want to experiment by all means . I’d be interested to see how it all works .


It might not be a good idea but im sure it would work. If i can get pretty good results with what im doing now then just mixing the two is a cake walk. I just like the idea of the amino, b vitamin, kelp and silica in there. I like the idea of not buying those things separately again.

I guess i gotta do this later though. Maybe make a whole experiment post from seedling to harvest with the mix and just the other things listed earlier in the thread in post three.


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## Budley Doright (Apr 1, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> It might not be a good idea but im sure it would work. If i can get pretty good results with what im doing now then just mixing the two is a cake walk. I just like the idea of the amino, b vitamin, kelp and silica in there. I like the idea of not buying those things separately again.
> 
> I guess i gotta do this later though. Maybe make a whole experiment post from seedling to harvest with the mix and just the other things listed earlier in the thread in post three.


I would love to see the results, I only tried the amino on advice from an old grower on another site re blotching after I was told it was a useless additive by lots and it did work for my situation re cal mag uptake so you never know until you try .


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## Budley Doright (Apr 1, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Just add brawndo its got what plants crave


Oh great a side by .... would love to see you try that and Mountain Dew


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## ttystikk (Apr 1, 2018)

Sigh, another promising thread gone to shit.

I'm out.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 1, 2018)

Just remember @Bernie420

Your nutrients only make up like 10 to 20 percent of plant growth prefomance.

Most is temps and humidity

I like experimentation

But if you mix two base nutes together you may end up making a worthless cocktail unless your very knowledgeable about chemical reactions,precipitation, ect ect.

Much safer to add the individual elements and pretty cheap too .

I dont know gow long you been growing for but eventually you will learn its the indian not the arrow when it comes to nutrients.

Environment trumps nutes every time.

Basically im nicley telling to not to mix the 2 for your own sanity
Cause you wont know whats fucking what up lol

Its why scientist only test one variable at a time even though they know they could get better results tweaking 2 varibles it would skew their results on the first variables 

God i hope that makes sens im a little taterd


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## Budley Doright (Apr 1, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Just remember @Bernie420
> 
> Your nutrients only make up like 10 to 20 percent of plant growth prefomance.
> 
> ...


It does but jeesh couldn’t he try just once lol.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 2, 2018)

ttystikk said:


> Sigh, another promising thread gone to shit.
> 
> I'm out.


Why the long face yoda?


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## Bernie420 (Apr 2, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Basically im nicley telling to not to mix the 2 for your own sanity
> *Cause you wont know whats fucking what up lol*
> 
> Its why scientist only test one variable at a time even though they know they could get better results tweaking 2 varibles it would skew their results on the first variables
> ...


thats kinda whats going on around here now. Its on the back burner though so dont worry I have to order the other stuff out of england I guess and I have other things to mess with first. Honestly i'll lose interest in it but i would think that nothing would happen and the plants would just grow like normal. I do like a challenge though we'll put it on the front burner.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 2, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> It does but jeesh couldn’t he try just once lol.


I would like to thank you for your support. 

Maybe in the fall we can try this let me screw things up with just one product a few times then we can try the two. Im thinking in the fall or maybe never i'll probably lose interest in it as time goes on.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 2, 2018)

Back burner front burner dosent matter to me bud 

But if you get a werid lock out let me know 

Im sure they would probably be ok but im not a chemist .
And it isnt really worth trying in my eyes.

But what ever floats your boat


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## PetFlora (Apr 2, 2018)

ttystikk said:


> 1180/700= EC 1.68 peak.
> 
> That's about where I'm at.


 I didn't know there was a 700 scale. I thought only 500/600 for ONE EC


----------



## PetFlora (Apr 2, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> I hear ya but its not wrapping around my brain. I heard the building blocks of protein thing learned that in third grade. Just dont know what these protein blocks are oh look time for recess.
> 
> What I know about amino acid is what I got from harley and that amino acid helps with the uptake of calcium. So in my mind it sounds like I could use the help getting the calcium in there. Now is that just for dirt. Cuz everything i've learned is from the dirt people and have had to apply it to my hydro. I do have dirt mothers never gave them amino acid come to think of it. Probably dont even need it and have been wasting the money on it and screwing up my plants metabolism all this time.
> 
> ...


soil uses microbes which turn nutrients into aminos. In hydro microbes screwed up my roots, but aminos and enzymes at ~ 1/4 strength worked fine

FYI, plants, unlike humans, have no problem converting inorganic salts into energy


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 2, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> I would love to see the results, I only tried the amino on advice from an old grower on another site re blotching after I was told it was a useless additive by lots and it did work for my situation re cal mag uptake so you never know until you try .


can I ask you about this? I take it you grow in hydro? So this whole time for the past couple of years all the amino acid I bought was a waste. The amino aid from soul synthetics was the product I used.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 2, 2018)

PetFlora said:


> soil uses microbes which turn nutrients into aminos. In hydro microbes screwed up my roots, but aminos and enzymes at ~ 1/4 strength worked fine
> 
> FYI, plants, unlike humans, have no problem converting inorganic salts into energy



I use microbes in my hydro to keep my roots looking good. Even though they will die off they battle all the bad bacteria in there, some manage to stay alive at the top of the pots it seems. idk Its what I do.


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 2, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> can I ask you about this? I take it you grow in hydro? So this whole time for the past couple of years all the amino acid I bought was a waste. The amino aid from soul synthetics was the product I used.


LOL so I think you quoted the wrong guy....I like the results I got .


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 2, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Back burner front burner dosent matter to me bud
> 
> But if you get a werid lock out let me know
> 
> ...


LOL That’s why I asked Bernie to do it.....I don’t have the room or the time . I’m thinking it probably will be fine but who knows lol.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 2, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> LOL so I think you quoted the wrong guy....I like the results I got .


no... why was it everybody told you not to that was what I was asking


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 2, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> no... why was it everybody told you not to that was what I was asking


Oh sorry . I heard it wasn’t needed, waste of money, plants produce more than enough. I was so frustrated with what seemed like a cal/mag lockout that I just bit the bullet and tried it. The old guy said due to my high concentrations of cal/mag in water they were locking each other out, amionos would stop this, it seems to have worked . I did find some green algae on a filter today that I’ve never had before. I’m really hoping it’s not the mega crop , I’m assuming a light leak .


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 2, 2018)

I am really glad that it seems nobody else is using the 16-4-17 one part Oasis hydro to grow cannabis, I loved developing my own feeding program. I learned a lot and it works very well for the most part. It is like having my own little secret. I will be using the same shit in soil soon. 
#zfg


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 2, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Its like taking to many vitamins.
> 
> Youll pee out what you don't use, and the 1s that are stored in the plant/body will eventually build up, poison it.
> 
> ...


Okay guitar man, where did you get those NPK numbers? I have never seen anyone credible claim to know the perfect fertilizer for cannabis before, what’s your source?


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 3, 2018)

Environment trumps nutes every time.... this is not True. All factors are equally as important, in a Scenario where the environment is very good and the nutes are shit you will not have optimal growth, the same as if the nutes were very good and the environment was shit. A plants leaves are connected directly with the root system, they work together not independently. Also if you guys are talking about building blocks of a plant etc you should be putting a lot more thought in to micro nutes as well.


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 3, 2018)

Michael Huntherz said:


> I like the feeding schedule, looks pretty legit to me, and it has good endorsements from everyone I have talked to who uses it,
> Do it!
> https://hydro-gardens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Burchetts-recipe-2017.pdf


Disclaimer I have never used Chem-Gro 4-20-39 just looked it up would never use it lol , I looked at the recipe it is far from legit , its pretty sad, someone must have made it to sell product . not only is it not balanced ( the most important part ) but the other values are way off IE. Calcium nitrate/ MPP etc. why would anyone even dream of throwing that much nitrate at your plants from week 5 on. and i think they forgot the importance of MPP


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 3, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> Also if you guys are talking about building blocks of a plant etc you should be putting a lot more thought in to micro nutes as well.


you have some ppm ranges for veg and bloom for all 16 micros?


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 3, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you have some ppm ranges for veg and bloom for all 16 micros?


Thank you for asking this.


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 3, 2018)

Michael Huntherz said:


> Thank you for asking this.


i looked up your Oasis. how does it compare to GH maxibloom? i've tried a few and it seems like i keep coming back to maxi. i like a one part dry nute and there aren't too many around.


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 3, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i looked up your Oasis. how does it compare to GH maxibloom? i've tried a few and it seems like i keep coming back to maxi. i like a one part dry nute and there aren't too many around.


It is 16-4-17 and I tend to push the P harder... I add a fair bit of Magnesium Sulfate and MKP in late veg/early flower.


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 3, 2018)

Michael Huntherz said:


> It is 16-4-17 and I tend to push the P harder... I add a fair bit of Magnesium Sulfate and MKP in late veg/early flower.


have you run maxi? so far after a few grows, i don' t need to add anythign other than silica. it's complete 1 part


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 3, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> have you run maxi? so far after a few grows, i don' t need to add anythign other than silica. it's complete 1 part


I have been hearing about it, may have to check it out. Thanks for the tip, man!

Took a look, seems a little pricey but it might be a good flower base for me. I do end up with too much N if I am not cautious.
Looks like I could use it in flower and Oasis in veg and have good results.


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 3, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you have some ppm ranges for veg and bloom for all 16 micros?


you have some ppm ranges for veg and bloom for all 16 micros?[/QUOTE

yeah I can tell you the percentage of each micro nute you need in the solution to supply the plant with its needs,I can tell you this on a weekly basis as the need of most micro nutes change as the plant develops/ grows and goes through different stages, the relation ships between the micro nutes and how to keep them all in balance. this took years of testing and plant sampling so forgive me if i don't hand it out like candy

but my point is this when mixing your own nutes the sky is the limit on what you can do so think outside the box and don't forget how important micro nutes are now a days a lot of this info is published it just takes some research and testing.


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 3, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> you have some ppm ranges for veg and bloom for all 16 micros?[/QUOTE
> 
> yeah I can tell you the percentage of each micro nute you need in the solution to supply the plant with its needs,I can tell you this on a weekly basis as the need of most micro nutes change as the plant develops/ grows and goes through different stages, the relation ships between the micro nutes and how to keep them all in balance. this took years of testing and plant sampling so forgive me if i don't hand it out like candy
> 
> but my point is this when mixing your own nutes the sky is the limit on what you can do so think outside the box and don't forget how important micro nutes are now a days a lot of this info is published it just takes some research and testing.


Return to your ivory tower, oh micronutrient wizard, and speak not again.


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 4, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> yeah I can tell you the percentage of each micro nute you need in the solution to supply the plant with its needs,I can tell you this on a weekly basis as the need of most micro nutes change as the plant develops/ grows and goes through different stages, the relation ships between the micro nutes and how to keep them all in balance. this took years of testing and plant sampling so forgive me if i don't hand it out like candy


how about tossing us a freebie? Boron. what are your ppms for weeks 1 thru 8 in bloom on an 8 week strain?


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 4, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> how about tossing us a freebie? Boron. what are your ppms for weeks 1 thru 8 in bloom on an 8 week strain?


I was going to ask how much chlorine cannabis requires and how it might differ when compared to other Dioecious C3 plant species, but Boron is good for me. 

Tell us a story, Mr. Wizard.


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 4, 2018)

All I want to know is where do I find a good cheap beneficial bacteria in Canada. I may have root issues .


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 4, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> Disclaimer I have never used Chem-Gro 4-20-39 just looked it up would never use it lol , I looked at the recipe it is far from legit , its pretty sad, someone must have made it to sell product . not only is it not balanced ( the most important part ) but the other values are way off IE. Calcium nitrate/ MPP etc. why would anyone even dream of throwing that much nitrate at your plants from week 5 on. and i think they forgot the importance of MPP



Hmm weed forumite or nutrient company thats been around since the 60s and never seen an add for them anywhere weed related who do you want to trust?

Seems to be working great for me atm will know more after a second run but so far its great not following theri feed chart as its too hot for rdwc but im using similar raitios just not as much


Break down the purpose of nitrogen for me please


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 4, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> Environment trumps nutes every time.... this is not True. All factors are equally as important, in a Scenario where the environment is very good and the nutes are shit you will not have optimal growth, the same as if the nutes were very good and the environment was shit. A plants leaves are connected directly with the root system, they work together not independently. Also if you guys are talking about building blocks of a plant etc you should be putting a lot more thought in to micro nutes as well.


Bwahahaha imo environment is 50% nutes are 20 and lights are 30

Good growers tune their nutes to the plants and the ENVIRONMENT they are in


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 4, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you have some ppm ranges for veg and bloom for all 16 micros?


Hey Rkymtnman Boron is a good one , a very good one but Boron goes way behyond ppm it effects the whole nutrient solution in one way or another, I'll try not to write a book but hopefully I'll give you some useful info.
so what is Boron ,well its is an essential micronutrient necessary for optimal plant growth and development.pretty much all of a plant’s boron is found in its cell walls. its most important role is aiding in cell wall formation functioning and strength.Boron has also an important role in meristematic tissue, especially in root points, pollen growth and shoot growth points,the number of bud sites, flower growth etc. .Potassium and phosphorus nutrition is enhanced by boron.It is available as boric acid as well
well if your familiar with photosynthesis i'm sure you know that The four major nutrients that enable photosynthesis are calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and boron. so one should be very mindful of enhancing availability of these elements. B and Ca have a very close realtionship that most don't understand Ca and B support each other in the plant.low deficient levels of B will reduce the uptake of Ca, If Ca is deficient, B uptake is also reduced . You can have high Ca, but with low B, that Ca is not absorbed. ok back to the relationship between Phosphorus and Magnesium, and between Calcium and Boron. Calcium is necessary for the transport of all other nutrients in the plant. Calcium should be balanced with potassium, magnesium and sodium Too much potassium inhibits the uptake of both Calcium and Magnesium. A plant needs Boron in order to take in Calcium.high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron,potassium and copper. so i could still go more indepth but hopefully you can now all understand why a balances solution is important.
we do know B absorption is very slow and is relatively immobile in the plant, transpiration plays a significant role in translocation.here is where people running a recycling system run in to trouble very very easily and don't have a clue why. your plants uptake nutrients at different rates , there is basically 3 different classes N,P,K,Mn are absorbed the fastest , Mg,S,Fe,Zn,Cu,Mo,and CI have an intermediate uptake and Ca and B being the slowest so the nutrients that returns to the reservoir is altered from the inital fed , meaning the fastest nutrients get depleted while the less needed nutrients accumulate in the solution, the process keeps repeating and within a day or days the ratios of nutrients to each other are fucked,thats why I laugh when people say they don't change the solution for weeks. also remember Ec readings do not distinguish between the different types of nutrients ions and that given N.P.K,Mn are taken up at higher rates then other elements N,P,K,Mn may be deficient even though the EC is ideal.
so as far as ppm there are 3 different guidelines for Boron from the US EPA sensitive crops citrus and trees 0.3 to 1.25 semi tolerant crops cereals and grains 0.67 - 2.5 tolerant crops includes most vegetables 1.0 - 4.0 . Me I run around 1ppm to 1.3 through veg. pre-flower I bump it up as the plant is doing a lot of things and building its self, stretching/growing , transitioning to flower etc. and then another bump for the heaviest 2 weeks of flower, I go as high as 4-4.5 and then right back down to 1 ppm. but remember I don't just change the Boron everything in the solution changes weekly to keep all the elements in balance


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 4, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> Hey Rkymtnman Boron is a good one , a very good one but Boron goes way behyond ppm it effects the whole nutrient solution in one way or another, I'll try not to write a book but hopefully I'll give you some useful info.
> so what is Boron ,well its is an essential micronutrient necessary for optimal plant growth and development.pretty much all of a plant’s boron is found in its cell walls. its most important role is aiding in cell wall formation functioning and strength.Boron has also an important role in meristematic tissue, especially in root points, pollen growth and shoot growth points,the number of bud sites, flower growth etc. .Potassium and phosphorus nutrition is enhanced by boron.It is available as boric acid as well
> well if your familiar with photosynthesis i'm sure you know that The four major nutrients that enable photosynthesis are calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and boron. so one should be very mindful of enhancing availability of these elements. B and Ca have a very close realtionship that most don't understand Ca and B support each other in the plant.low deficient levels of B will reduce the uptake of Ca, If Ca is deficient, B uptake is also reduced . You can have high Ca, but with low B, that Ca is not absorbed. ok back to the relationship between Phosphorus and Magnesium, and between Calcium and Boron. Calcium is necessary for the transport of all other nutrients in the plant. Calcium should be balanced with potassium, magnesium and sodium Too much potassium inhibits the uptake of both Calcium and Magnesium. A plant needs Boron in order to take in Calcium.high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron,potassium and copper. so i could still go more indepth but hopefully you can now all understand why a balances solution is important.
> we do know B absorption is very slow and is relatively immobile in the plant, transpiration plays a significant role in translocation.here is where people running a recycling system run in to trouble very very easily and don't have a clue why. your plants uptake nutrients at different rates , there is basically 3 different classes N,P,K,Mn are absorbed the fastest , Mg,S,Fe,Zn,Cu,Mo,and CI have an intermediate uptake and Ca and B being the slowest so the nutrients that returns to the reservoir is altered from the inital fed , meaning the fastest nutrients get depleted while the less needed nutrients accumulate in the solution, the process keeps repeating and within a day or days the ratios of nutrients to each other are fucked,thats why I laugh when people say they don't change the solution for weeks. also remember Ec readings do not distinguish between the different types of nutrients ions and that given N.P.K,Mn are taken up at higher rates then other elements N,P,K,Mn may be deficient even though the EC is ideal.
> so as far as ppm there are 3 different guidelines for Boron from the US EPA sensitive crops citrus and trees 0.3 to 1.25 semi tolerant crops cereals and grains 0.67 - 2.5 tolerant crops includes most vegetables 1.0 - 4.0 . Me I run around 1ppm to 1.3 through veg. pre-flower I bump it up as the plant is doing a lot of things and building its self, stretching/growing , transitioning to flower etc. and then another bump for the heaviest 2 weeks of flower, I go as high as 4-4.5 and then right back down to 1 ppm. but remember I don't just change the Boron everything in the solution changes weekly to keep all the elements in balance


I am going to take a stab at guessing your demographic, for my own entertainment. You are a white male, middle class, approximately 26 years old with a recently attained BS from a State University. You know plant biology well enough that you probably studied it in college, or you may work professionally in the field. Perhaps an arborist by trade. Other career possibilities include engineering or some kind of computer science. I am also guessing you are single, straight, Christian (because statistically that’s a good bet) a gun owner, and you like beer more than wine, and cigars more than a pipe, but you avoid tobacco except for special occasions. You have not had any serious traumatic injuries and you are in generally good health except for a few plant allergies. Your relationship with your father is rocky in some way, and you have no kids of your own.

(Just guessing, if I am wrong it only proves I am not psychic; which I am not. It would be fun to know how far off I am, probably frickin’ miles.)

My beef is you made false claims to knowledge that you could not possess. You clearly have enough information to contribute to the conversation, but claiming to know the optimal values for all micronutrients in cannabis is overshooting your target. You have a set of opinions on dosing micronutrients, not a set of facts.

Implying that you have uncovered some secret knowledge that the rest of us do not have access to is sort of shitty, man. I admit when challenged you were able to make a convincing post, and I have no doubt you’re a bright person, but there wasn’t anything new in what you wrote. You shared a slice of your system and your reasons for it. No matter how well reasoned, those statements are not empirical facts, they are your opinion.

Dial it back a bit, maybe? You’re smart and well-informed enough you shouldn’t have to puff up your chest quite that much to feel on top of your game.

I am pleased you had the grit to respond in the verbose manner you have, and I tip my hat to you for it.


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 4, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Hmm weed forumite or nutrient company thats been around since the 60s and never seen an add for them anywhere weed related who do you want to trust?
> 
> Seems to be working great for me atm will know more after a second run but so far its great not following theri feed chart as its too hot for rdwc but im using similar raitios just not as much
> 
> ...


nope never seen a add for them anywhere because I don't mess with any of that shit, back in the day there wasn't grow shops on every corner, and we were not conditioned that you needed to go to one and buy 8 or 10 bottle of some mass produced fancy named shit in a bottle. not to mention the retarded price of it. we did the old school way by mixing our own, playing with formulas , and as one thing lead to another plant samples etc. untill we got to where we are thats why I can look at a solution do some percentages and math in my head and know if its any good. the people that really no how to grow has no need to step foot in a grow shop,being good at anything is sometimes not what you know but what you have yet to learn, there is a whole underground of stuff that just never gets out I can see why, I have pure genetics probably older then most on here I have some thats never been released, I seen formulas that would blow your mind, and yet one tries to give out a little helpful info. you guys start acting like little cry babies and start throwing out names and shit. not that I care in the least but why would one want to throw out info.

the break down of nitrogen N03(-) and N4H(+) really thats in the basic play book, but I done enough typing tonight maybe another time I'll tell you how they interact with other elements and how to use it with Co2


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 4, 2018)

Not interested in co2 thanks though


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 4, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> one tries to give out a little helpful info. you guys start acting like little cry babies and start throwing out names and shit.


That’s not really how it went. You dropped in and said:



southernguy99 said:


> Environment trumps nutes every time.... this is not True. All factors are equally as important, in a Scenario where the environment is very good and the nutes are shit you will not have optimal growth, the same as if the nutes were very good and the environment was shit. A plants leaves are connected directly with the root system, they work together not independently. Also if you guys are talking about building blocks of a plant etc you should be putting a lot more thought in to micro nutes as well.


Which is largely just waving your dick around.

You didn’t tell me anything new there, that’s for sure. And you assumed none of us were putting enough thought into micros, which is pretty arrogant and somewhat rude, not to mention wrong. How the fuck would you know how much thought and study I have given to micronutrients? I know there are a lot of clowns out there, but assuming because we are all wearing rubber noses and giant shoes it means we showed up in the same tiny car is neither helpful nor accurate.

I can see now my demographic guess of your age is way off, you are an old dude like me.

No hate here, ain’t mad, but let’s keep it real.


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 4, 2018)

yeah you were very wrong lol I think you had 3 things right but I'm not an old dude sorry

sorry but I don't see where you got that from it certainly wasn't meant that way , as far as the Environment trumps nutes every time it is incorrect what do you want me to say, and that is backed up by journals from some very well know universities. and that post wasn't a reply to anyone or directed at anyone it was a post maybe you never learned anything or put anymore thought into anything but maybe someone else did and searched some of it up learned something

you wrote...
My beef is you made false claims to knowledge that you could not possess. You clearly have enough information to contribute to the conversation, but claiming to know the optimal values for all micronutrients in cannabis is overshooting your target. You have a set of opinions on dosing micronutrients, not a set of facts.

I never made false claims , from years of testing and knowledge learned my opinion is and i believe my values are as optimal as they get.and when comparing to others and testing I have yet to see any other set of values prove me different if you have a set of weekly micro values that change with the life of the plant and stay in balance with all other element please send them over I'd gladly compare and do testing with you.

you wrote
Implying that you have uncovered some secret knowledge that the rest of us do not have access to is sort of shitty

not implying I uncovered anything secret at all , but what I did learn was through a lot of hard work and time. and its not a secret admittedly it may have mostly been in the underground there is now much online, there is some great journals from universities and agriculture places that list it all out. take it put it in practice and start testing. like i said in hydro the sky is the limit think outside the box because I'm sure one can learn much more then I know


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 4, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> yeah you were very wrong lol I think you had 3 things right but I'm not an old dude sorry
> 
> sorry but I don't see where you got that from it certainly wasn't meant that way , as far as the Environment trumps nutes every time it is incorrect what do you want me to say, and that is backed up by journals from some very well know universities. and that post wasn't a reply to anyone or directed at anyone it was a post maybe you never learned anything or put anymore thought into anything but maybe someone else did and searched some of it up learned something
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I disagree on some of the specifics, but it’s okay to disagree.
No hard feelings of any kind.
Cheers and happy growing!


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 4, 2018)

For sure man no hard feeling at all,it would be boring if people didn't disagree now and again lol


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 5, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> Hey Rkymtnman Boron is a good one , a very good one but Boron goes way behyond ppm it effects the whole nutrient solution in one way or another, I'll try not to write a book but hopefully I'll give you some useful info.
> so what is Boron ,well its is an essential micronutrient necessary for optimal plant growth and development.pretty much all of a plant’s boron is found in its cell walls. its most important role is aiding in cell wall formation functioning and strength.Boron has also an important role in meristematic tissue, especially in root points, pollen growth and shoot growth points,the number of bud sites, flower growth etc. .Potassium and phosphorus nutrition is enhanced by boron.It is available as boric acid as well
> well if your familiar with photosynthesis i'm sure you know that The four major nutrients that enable photosynthesis are calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and boron. so one should be very mindful of enhancing availability of these elements. B and Ca have a very close realtionship that most don't understand Ca and B support each other in the plant.low deficient levels of B will reduce the uptake of Ca, If Ca is deficient, B uptake is also reduced . You can have high Ca, but with low B, that Ca is not absorbed. ok back to the relationship between Phosphorus and Magnesium, and between Calcium and Boron. Calcium is necessary for the transport of all other nutrients in the plant. Calcium should be balanced with potassium, magnesium and sodium Too much potassium inhibits the uptake of both Calcium and Magnesium. A plant needs Boron in order to take in Calcium.high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron,potassium and copper. so i could still go more indepth but hopefully you can now all understand why a balances solution is important.
> we do know B absorption is very slow and is relatively immobile in the plant, transpiration plays a significant role in translocation.here is where people running a recycling system run in to trouble very very easily and don't have a clue why. your plants uptake nutrients at different rates , there is basically 3 different classes N,P,K,Mn are absorbed the fastest , Mg,S,Fe,Zn,Cu,Mo,and CI have an intermediate uptake and Ca and B being the slowest so the nutrients that returns to the reservoir is altered from the inital fed , meaning the fastest nutrients get depleted while the less needed nutrients accumulate in the solution, the process keeps repeating and within a day or days the ratios of nutrients to each other are fucked,thats why I laugh when people say they don't change the solution for weeks. also remember Ec readings do not distinguish between the different types of nutrients ions and that given N.P.K,Mn are taken up at higher rates then other elements N,P,K,Mn may be deficient even though the EC is ideal.
> so as far as ppm there are 3 different guidelines for Boron from the US EPA sensitive crops citrus and trees 0.3 to 1.25 semi tolerant crops cereals and grains 0.67 - 2.5 tolerant crops includes most vegetables 1.0 - 4.0 . Me I run around 1ppm to 1.3 through veg. pre-flower I bump it up as the plant is doing a lot of things and building its self, stretching/growing , transitioning to flower etc. and then another bump for the heaviest 2 weeks of flower, I go as high as 4-4.5 and then right back down to 1 ppm. but remember I don't just change the Boron everything in the solution changes weekly to keep all the elements in balance


thanks for the thorough response!

i do just a small grow with 2 in veg, 2 in bloom using waterfarms in a drain to waste setup. for someone like me, buying bags of different salts is not really a good option.

of the nutes that are available on the market, which ones do you think most resemble the "best" for cannabis in your opinion? or in other words, if you had to run store bought stuff, what would you pick?


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 5, 2018)

I’m thinking of changing back to miracle grow general purpose . I just smoked a big fat one with a buddy that used it on his soil grow and honestly it tasted very nice, burned well, and he said the plants were happy and large, he never ph’d water from a well and had them under two 600’s. Back when I started the larger field grows in the mid 80’s we used pounds of the stuff and never had any nutrient issues. I may try a run next and see what happens in my trays . Oh and the Megacrop is god awful smelling .


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 5, 2018)

Ha ha


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 5, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> thanks for the thorough response!
> 
> i do just a small grow with 2 in veg, 2 in bloom using waterfarms in a drain to waste setup. for someone like me, buying bags of different salts is not really a good option.
> 
> of the nutes that are available on the market, which ones do you think most resemble the "best" for cannabis in your opinion? or in other words, if you had to run store bought stuff, what would you pick?


Hey rkymtnman, I agree for 4 plants I wouldn't bother with mixing nutes and buy all the salts but I honestly can't answer your questions and without knowing for sure I don't want to say. I never did side by side tests with bottle nutes to see which one preformed the best, I have though ran different bottle nutes side by side to my way of doing it and none of them could keep up, and I don't remember any standouts, I think they all preformed roughly the same. 

I it was me i would actually try what one of my buddies did who was growing just a couple, he had 7 or 10 gallon pots , used sunshine mix#4 and bough the starter pack of general organics nutrients got 2 grows out of it and actually done very well, instead of running sunshine though i'd buy organic compost, worm casting,a little rock dust use that as my soil and use the general organics nutes. I think you could do very well , but i'm not an organics guy I'm going by what I seen. I don't know if i'd bother with hydro for 4 plants, in fact I'm thinking of dropping the hydro and going all organics, I want the challenge of learning it inside and out.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 5, 2018)

Uhh i thought that's what you said 
Was your abilty to look at nutrients and judge them without using them?


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## Cold$moke (Apr 5, 2018)

Personally ive never experienced ANY nutrient related problems THAT i didnt cause.

The exception is my possible bad bottles of advanced nutes.

Never.... every single nutrient i ever tried did exactly what it was supposed to lol

Botanicare severla lines for several years.
Gh trio for several years
Advanced different lines over 7 years
Canna just used once for a bit as i quit coco (for now)
RAW nutes by npk

And a few others i cant remember i think earthjuice .


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## Cold$moke (Apr 5, 2018)

I still stand by my ratio of importance

Environment 50% lights 30% nutes 20.

Not including strain selection


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## southernguy99 (Apr 5, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> I’m thinking of changing back to miracle grow general purpose . I just smoked a big fat one with a buddy that used it on his soil grow and honestly it tasted very nice, burned well, and he said the plants were happy and large, he never ph’d water from a well and had them under two 600’s. Back when I started the larger field grows in the mid 80’s we used pounds of the stuff and never had any nutrient issues. I may try a run next and see what happens in my trays . Oh and the Megacrop is god awful smelling .


Hey Bro I'm not trying to be a smart ass or know it all but if you don't know or understand the make up of nutrients now is the time to start lol. I would not under any circumstances use miracle gro for anything other then a flower or a plant i'm going to just look at and even then I'd think twice .

The guy above asked about nitrogen so let just look at that , in a high quality nitrogen you will see 2 different forms NO3(-) ion (nitrate) and NH4(+) ion (ammonium). NO3 should be 90% of the total nitrogen and NH4 should be 10% that is important.

miracle gro uses neither. they use ammoniacal nitrogen NH3-N it is a shit shit nitrogen and its used at 20% for there main nitrogen source they use urea nitrogen at 80% again a very low end shirty nitrogen .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammoniacal_nitrogen


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## Cold$moke (Apr 5, 2018)

Yea ones better for dirt and ones better for hydro 

Ammonium nitrate is more slow release for soil right?


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## southernguy99 (Apr 5, 2018)

No not really it has to do with the make up of ion , how its uptaken and it can be toxic, but it does have some very good value as well.

Nitrogen is a macro element used in relatively large quantities by the plant for plant grow. For hydro the two different forms for plant uptake are nitrate and ammonium-again at 90% to 10% the biggest issue with nitrogen is its easily over used without the grow knowing it. Nitrate can be called a luxury element because if you have to much nitrate or extra in your solution the plant will uptake it regaurdless if it needs it or not. that creates an isue with photosynthesis,30% to 40% of the energy of photosynthesis is burned just to take up nitrates. so too much nitrate and the plant burns up its energy reserves for more top growth and inhibites root growth.and just because the plant is dark green and looks healthy its not to much nitrates cause large cells with thin cell walls, making them more susceptible to stress and disease. to much stored nitrates cause bad flavors 

ammonium-nitrogen - ok a plant will uptake ammonium ions immediately,without accumulating excess nitrates , ammonium ion is positively charged and as the plant uptakes it exchanges positively-charged H+ ions from the roots which neutralize excess bicarbonate ions in the water and drives the pH down.if you have a nitrogen deficiency ammonium is your quickest fix because it uptakes it immediately can also be used as a foliar feed . the reason you only want to run it at 10% of total nitrogen is because it can be toxic at anymore, and really effect growth.but if your running Co2 and high light output you can run it up 20% to maximize growth


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## Budley Doright (Apr 6, 2018)

Yes I used it in soil and while chemistry is not my fortie or even an interest my plants always did well using it. As for the toxic thing, I guess I need to do more research but as far as toxic to the plant itself, never saw it and we are talking huge numbers of plants. Not disagreeing really but again I always had great luck using it. As for taste, the main selling point of the Blueberry (yes mostly the same strain for 13 years) was taste and quality that customers wanted. I just met with an old friend who actually mentioned he wished it was still around. Sorry I regress, back to the sciency stuff .


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## rkymtnman (Apr 6, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> I don't know if i'd bother with hydro for 4 plants


no, i love my autofeed drain to waste waterfarms. i've got it set up where i can go out of town for at least a week and all is well when i get back. 
in fact, everything is pretty much dialed in that all i'm messing with now is different nutes and different additives.


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## jimihendrix1 (Apr 6, 2018)

Michael Huntherz said:


> Okay guitar man, where did you get those NPK numbers? I have never seen anyone credible claim to know the perfect fertilizer for cannabis before, what’s your source?


While I haven't used them, and am not in Canada,

Look into the Elite Nutrients... ROOT IGNITER.
*Elite Nutrients Products | Hydro Empire*
https://www.*hydro*empire.com/brand/*elite-nutrients*


*Active Ingredients:*
Mycorrhizae: 136 propagules per mL

Endomycorrhizae:
Glomus intraradices: (34 prop./ml each)
G. mosseae: (34 prop./ml each)
G. aggregatum: (34 prop./ml each)
G. etunicatum: (34 prop./ml each)




Tissue Samples.

Chem Gro have been in business since the 60s. Just because you've never heard of them, nor seen ads doesn't mean crap. I guess you've seen every ad for every product ever made,
And since these people have been in business for 50+ years, and been making Plant Specific Formulas Forever, your research is lacking.

They have been making Plant Specific Formulas for decades. Read Again. DECADES,, Multiple Decades like 5 of them. 50 years worth.


They use Tissue Samples. Doesn't get any more accurate than that.

These people have been in business since the 60s, and Ive been using these people since the 80s. Some formulas were different then, they didn't have the weed formula, we used the Hobby Formula, and tweaked it to our unscientific liking.

I'll go with my experience with the company, and 46 years of growing. Ive been mucking around outside since 1972, and since 1978 for inside.

I mainly do Passive Hydro, use Promix BX as my medium, and use large 20-30 gallon containers for trees. I veg under 1000w HID, and flower under 1000w HID. Hortilux HPS, and Gavitas. 63w sq/ft of light per 4 x 4 area minimum. More with the Gavitas. I never get less than a 1.5-1.75lbs per light ( 4 x 4 ) ( Hortilux. More for Gavita ), and often 2+. I use no atmospheric control, but do have good airflow, so in winter I get more, summer less. Usually 2 per Hortilux, and 4 under the Gavitas. Gavita is used for a 6 x 5 area at full output, vs 4 x 4 for Hortilux

I basically use 20% strength, and Feed/Water Every Feeding. In a 20g-30 container, for a flowering plant, I water/feed 4 - 6 gallons every 3.5 days. You also have to be very careful about salts buildup in containers when you feed/water each time, and increasing the PPM weekly.

Also my take on the AMINOS, is ASSUMING, All other Nutrients/Macro/Micro, are in order, and the PH is correct.
After that,....Adding anything extra Macros/Micros... is a waste of money.

Protein is Nitrogen. Amino Acids are what make up Protein/Nitrogen. You've either got enough, or you don't. If yore lacking, they can help, if your not lacking, they can cause overload.

If I was having problems, Id get my PH, Macros/Micros correct before I added anything else.

The Promix BX contains Mycorize, and after it settles, the PH will stabilize at 6.2-6.3. Initially it will measure 5.8 or so, and stabilize upwards.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 6, 2018)

This is why i like hydrogardens they will do tissue samples and tailor the feed recipe for your plants.
If you use the service

Now whether or not this include weed which i would think it would because its their "hemp" formula .


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## Cold$moke (Apr 6, 2018)

And for me it doesnt matter if its a single plant or more its in hydro of some fassion


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## blowincherrypie (Apr 6, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Oh and the Megacrop is god awful smelling .


 lol.. Call me crazy but I actually dont mind the smell when mixing it up. The dust it can kick up when you transfer packaging was rough though lol had to get me resperator.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 6, 2018)

Ha ha it was described to me as a hookers dirty butt


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## rkymtnman (Apr 6, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Ha ha it was described to me as a hookers dirty butt


you gotta spend more than $20 bucks on your whores, @Cold$moke lol.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 6, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you gotta spend more than $20 bucks on your whores, @Cold$moke lol.


Fuck i almost spit my coffee out! 

I think it was Lordhooha or charface that said it lmao

Hahahaha. Mmmmmmnn shes still got that new whore smell


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## southernguy99 (Apr 6, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> no, i love my autofeed drain to waste waterfarms. i've got it set up where i can go out of town for at least a week and all is well when i get back.
> in fact, everything is pretty much dialed in that all i'm messing with now is different nutes and different additives.


yes knowing your setup like that I wouldn't change either, one nutes I'd take a look at is Remo Nutrients from western canada I'm pretty sure they sell in the usa as well, From what I seen and heard I think he is a pretty good grower and has his own nutrient line. worth looking into.


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## Michael Huntherz (Apr 7, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Yes I used it in soil and while chemistry is not my fortie or even an interest my plants always did well using it. As for the toxic thing, I guess I need to do more research but as far as toxic to the plant itself, never saw it and we are talking huge numbers of plants. Not disagreeing really but again I always had great luck using it. As for taste, the main selling point of the Blueberry (yes mostly the same strain for 13 years) was taste and quality that customers wanted. I just met with an old friend who actually mentioned he wished it was still around. Sorry I regress, back to the sciency stuff .


Man, I think a lot of us overthink it.

I think about that all the time...like, constantly. 

I have smoked top shelf buds produced by doing everything “wrong” (except curing) enough times that I have a hard time believing there is any sort true path or perfect method.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 7, 2018)

Yes but then you do a fire run and your like awww yea lol i knw tons of stuff ive fuck up on this grow lol

I dont mind im shaking the dust off a year or 2 stint of just keeping my mommas alive  work kept me away to much to care to grow 

I by it cheap from other growers i know lol


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## Budley Doright (Apr 7, 2018)

Michael Huntherz said:


> Man, I think a lot of us overthink it.
> 
> I think about that all the time...like, constantly.
> 
> I have smoked top shelf buds produced by doing everything “wrong” (except curing) enough times that I have a hard time believing there is any sort true path or perfect method.


I’m the poster child for doing it wrong lol


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## Cold$moke (Apr 7, 2018)

Im suprised i havent burnt the tips on my scrog set up lol .....my other side is just hooker butt 

My single bubblers are doing good with the coffee creamer can having some claw but thats a like 1/2 to 3/4 gal res haha


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## Bernie420 (Apr 8, 2018)

Why does the chem-gro recipe have such a big difference in ppm's on their recipe for weeks 3&4 when it says to use the same amount of nutrients for each week?


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## Cold$moke (Apr 8, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Why does the chem-gro recipe have such a big difference in ppm's on their recipe for weeks 3&4 when it says to use the same amount of nutrients for each week?


I wondered the same thing haha


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## Cold$moke (Apr 8, 2018)

Im definitely not following the chart as i dont go much over 1000ppm x700 scale.

I just used the feed chart to get ratios of the 3 parts


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## southernguy99 (Apr 8, 2018)

well there is a reason why I said Chem gro was junk by just looking at . First off they use Phosphoric Acid without going into a lot of detail that is a cheap product and way of doing it, and can create many issues one being PH down issues and there are better products like Monopotassium phosphate. They list Soluble Potash (K20) if you look in the small print they say Muriate of Potash, again a junk cheap product they should be using Potassium sulfate. so what are you getting there is no Nitrogen to speak of no magnesium sulfate so what are you paying for.its 2 cheap and shitty products in it , in P205 and K20 and the trace element are not any wheres what they should be and none of its balanced. the point of mixing your own nutes is to use high quality elements and keep them balanced this is neither.
There feed program is so retarded I don't know what else to say, none if it will balance out, just look at the Nitrate its so fucked its beyond . I mean just think about it for an 8 week plant what is it doing from week 5 on , pretty much everything is going to flower the plant is not growing or stretching etc. so why in the fuck would anyone throw that much Nitrates at it, week 7 and 8 really doesn't need any. there should be a bump in nitrogen right at pre-flower for about 10 days and then it drops off again.


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## southernguy99 (Apr 8, 2018)

basic mix should have calcium nitrate potassium sulfate potassium nitrate ( veg only ) monopotassium phosphate ,magnesium sulfate and a good balance of micro nutes and that will give anyone a good start.your only going to grow as good as the quality of nutes you use


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## maianhjvb (Apr 8, 2018)

Specifically formulated for weed by a company that's been doing specific plant formulas for 45 years.


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## southernguy99 (Apr 8, 2018)

Yeah I could careless what they say or do etc a cheap product is a cheap product , and there is nothing specific about that formula but I guess maybe its what one is comparing it to. and look at the grow program lol sometimes a little common sense can go a long way


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## Cold$moke (Apr 9, 2018)

So far im loving it

Of course im not following the feed chart.

But its great cant wait to see what i can do with it when its dialed in.

Tooks me a few weeks to realize its ph swings now its awsome works better then a ph that rises or at least i like it.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 9, 2018)

Besides your join date and account posts look a lil funny


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## Cold$moke (Apr 9, 2018)

maianhjvb said:


> Specifically formulated for weed by a company that's been doing specific plant formulas for 45 years.


Kinda what i figured lol

Ive run advanced ,gh,botanicare, and some canna and i think earth juice in my 15 years.

Never jumped on board with the salts cause i thought they where "cheap" as well 

But now im happy as a clam so far.

When i chose a replacment i had it narrowed down to

Veg +bloom,mega crop, and jacks 

I chose hydrogardens cause everybody does jacks and i like to be differnt 

I chose it over the others listed.becayse they have bio stims in them which make them dark.

Chem gro us almost CLEAR and for a guy thats used brown water for over 10 years the clear is a welcomed change of veiw haha. Nice bone white roots


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## Budley Doright (Apr 9, 2018)

@southernguy99 I’m not getting that your formulations are needed (you make it sound like the premixed won’t grow pot) when everything I see suggested here does a great job? Are your plants grown with your formulations that much better? I haven’t searched but do you have any pics of your grows and surely you must have some lab reports of your product re brix levels, thc, etc.


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## southernguy99 (Apr 9, 2018)

No Budley mine are not needed never said they were, the op question was best nutrients to use in hydo , well i'm simply stating that is the highest quality element you can get, mixed properly, none of this store bought pre-mix can come close.
It depends on what your growing expectations are or what you can compare to, what does one consider a great job ? some people grow a plant and get 80-100 g and are happy as they should be but someone will grow the same plant and shoot to get a pound or more off it, I mean everyone grows different , so grow small little plants , some medium size , some grow large etc some people shoot for 1/2 g watt some shoot for 1g a watt and some shoot for much more .so there is a difference to what one may think is great, to what can actually be achieved.
we have done testing side by side in controlled rooms so the only factor that was different was the nutes and in no way could the bottled nuts come close, veg times plant grow etc flowers, yield etc , I guess if you never seen this side by side you wouldn't understand, but we could do at least double to what the bottle nutes were doing , and thats all I'm saying bottle nutes and per-mixed stuff is a one size fits all, and can only achieve so much , and if anyone wants to take it to the next level learn about the quality of elements, how to mix your own and play with some formulas.Everything I said here can be easily researched. there is many journals on element how they interact and how to feed. most people don't know the term 6 pack or what it is look it up learn how to do it. its a start .

so a year ago you thought the brown water was the way to go, now you realize chem gro almost clear water is better, then why do you not think by going to better quality elements crystal clear water and a proper feed scheduled can't be better yet? not sure what looks funny, I'm a hydro guy inside and out but I'm starting to think i'd like to learn organics, it would cool to grow a pound plant or better in a 7 gallon pot using water


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## southernguy99 (Apr 9, 2018)

not that you guys will appreciate it or think its any good i'm sure, but this is a very good starting point ,that a lot of you can learn something from i'm sure https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/the-six-pack-formula.43923/


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## Budley Doright (Apr 9, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> No Budley mine are not needed never said they were, the op question was best nutrients to use in hydo , well i'm simply stating that is the highest quality element you can get, mixed properly, none of this store bought pre-mix can come close.
> It depends on what your growing expectations are or what you can compare to, what does one consider a great job ? some people grow a plant and get 80-100 g and are happy as they should be but someone will grow the same plant and shoot to get a pound or more off it, I mean everyone grows different , so grow small little plants , some medium size , some grow large etc some people shoot for 1/2 g watt some shoot for 1g a watt and some shoot for much more .so there is a difference to what one may think is great, to what can actually be achieved.
> we have done testing side by side in controlled rooms so the only factor that was different was the nutes and in no way could the bottled nuts come close, veg times plant grow etc flowers, yield etc , I guess if you never seen this side by side you wouldn't understand, but we could do at least double to what the bottle nutes were doing , and thats all I'm saying bottle nutes and per-mixed stuff is a one size fits all, and can only achieve so much , and if anyone wants to take it to the next level learn about the quality of elements, how to mix your own and play with some formulas.Everything I said here can be easily researched. there is many journals on element how they interact and how to feed. most people don't know the term 6 pack or what it is look it up learn how to do it. its a start .
> 
> so a year ago you thought the brown water was the way to go, now you realize chem gro almost clear water is better, then why do you not think by going to better quality elements crystal clear water and a proper feed scheduled can't be better yet? not sure what looks funny, I'm a hydro guy inside and out but I'm starting to think i'd like to learn organics, it would cool to grow a pound plant or better in a 7 gallon pot using water


Yes your right you didn’t say needed, I guess I just read that into it and yes your right about how far one wants to take it. My question is really does it make that much difference and to answer that I guess it’s up to me to find out if I desire .


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## Cold$moke (Apr 9, 2018)

Agreed i love my plants as much as the next guy but at some point i got shit to do and learning more chemistry 
Just doesnt sound appealing although i wish i would 

so i pay the guys at hydrogardens to figur thats out roughly and i tweak it till i see the plant is happiest


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## southernguy99 (Apr 9, 2018)

yes Budley it makes a difference in every aspect, and it doesn't matter what scale you grow on its all the same, in our tests what we found out is in veg our 2.5 to 3 week veg time was equal to at least 5 weeks of any bottles nutes, and out plants were still bigger and healthier, so we save on nutes , time lights etc. in flower the same thing we would save some time but not a lot but our plants was bigger healthier stronger, which translates to stronger/more bud sites bigger fuller buds much more oil aroma's , many many more trichomes way frostier, bigger fatter with really nice colors, and at least double the yield. better heat /stress and disease tolerant if anything happened , not to mention we saved a fuck load on nutes. now if you guys can't do this or won't or are to lazy to and want to call BS and all that other shit feel free no sweat of my ass, otherwise I'd say at least do the basic 6 pack and see for yourself,


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## Bernie420 (Apr 9, 2018)

So I've been researching nutrients some, watching videos, reading threads trying to get a better grip on things and I think I got more stupid than before I started if thats even possible so...

If I add 1 gram of calcium nitrate to 1 gram of chem-grow I'll have a a nutrient ratio of 20.5/20/39 and if I add 1 gram of MPK to those two grams I"ll have a nutrient of a ratio of 20.5/72/73. Is that right?

I guess i'm asking with dry nutes is everything 1:1 by dry weight.

Now if I add only a half a gram of calcium nitrate to the 1 gram of chem-gro will I have a nutrient of 11.75/20/39. 

If I add the RAW brand phosphorous 9/61/0 to my chem-gro will I have a nutrient of 13/81/39 at a 1:1 ratio?

and what ratio should I be at for growing cannabis? Is there an answer for that or is it all just subjective? Switching from bottle to dry is making me think to much about it.


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## southernguy99 (Apr 9, 2018)

Bernie420 look up a couple posts and look at the Thcfarmer thread I posted then go to post 12 of that thread. it shows everything pretty good lists what you need and shows how much to mix and gives ppm values at the bottom . I never used that one my formulas are more next level ones but dong some math in my head I would say thats a very good starting place.


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## Tangerine_ (Apr 10, 2018)

Hey guys, some of this may help decipher what our new member is claiming as his own super secret recipe and knowledge.
Granted, I've not read every post, but the first one showed quotes verbatim from here.
https://www.agriculturesolutions.ca/blog/tag/nutrient interaction

People should cite their info and not claim it as there own. Tsk tsk

And if you really want your formula broken down @im4satori is super helpful at calculating exact ratios for hydro. Last I checked he was converting to ROLS but he really knows his stuff when it comes to hydro.
HTH


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## Cold$moke (Apr 10, 2018)

So next level cant show that shit


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## Budley Doright (Apr 10, 2018)

Double the yield


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## rkymtnman (Apr 10, 2018)

Tangerine_ said:


> And if you really want your formula broken down @im4satori is super helpful at calculating exact ratios for hydro. Last I checked he was converting to ROLS but he really knows his stuff when it comes to hydro.


agreed about im4satori.


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## PetFlora (Apr 10, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> No Budley mine are not needed never said they were, the op question was best nutrients to use in hydo , well i'm simply stating that is the highest quality element you can get, mixed properly, none of this store bought pre-mix can come close.
> It depends on what your growing expectations are or what you can compare to, what does one consider a great job ? some people grow a plant and get 80-100 g and are happy as they should be but someone will grow the same plant and shoot to get a pound or more off it, I mean everyone grows different , so grow small little plants , some medium size , some grow large etc some people shoot for 1/2 g watt some shoot for 1g a watt and some shoot for much more .so there is a difference to what one may think is great, to what can actually be achieved.
> we have done testing side by side in controlled rooms so the only factor that was different was the nutes and in no way could the bottled nuts come close, veg times plant grow etc flowers, yield etc , I guess if you never seen this side by side you wouldn't understand, but we could do at least double to what the bottle nutes were doing , and thats all I'm saying bottle nutes and per-mixed stuff is a one size fits all, and can only achieve so much , and if anyone wants to take it to the next level learn about the quality of elements, how to mix your own and play with some formulas.Everything I said here can be easily researched. there is many journals on element how they interact and how to feed. most people don't know the term 6 pack or what it is look it up learn how to do it. its a start .
> 
> so a year ago you thought the brown water was the way to go, now you realize chem gro almost clear water is better, then why do you not think by going to better quality elements crystal clear water and a proper feed scheduled can't be better yet? not sure what looks funny, I'm a hydro guy inside and out but I'm starting to think i'd like to learn organics, it would cool to grow a pound plant or better in a 7 gallon pot using water


Where this was true, IMO, newer players in the nutrient arena have significantly upped their game. While I had excellent grows using Veg + Bloom some 3 years ago, I could not get it out of my head that it provided too much N during Bloom. I switched to Emerald Harvest (also excellent), but quickly tired of mixing 6 bottles, so I switched to NPK RAW veg and bloom, but my dumb ass couldn't leave well enough alone and added humic, which was no bueno. They recommended microbes, not realizing Im a hydro grower, that too screwed things up. They then said to use aminos and enzymes instead of microbes, which worked great. Since I still have enough EH for several grows I decided to use it until I run out, but hope to have enough females to run one system with MC, which also looks complete


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## rkymtnman (Apr 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> I chose hydrogardens


i looked up their website and they are only an hour away from me.

i don't see all 16 micros in the blend and the Mg seems way, way too low at only 0.35% . also no Ca either. are you supplementing it with anything?


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## Cold$moke (Apr 10, 2018)

Yes the recipe calls for cal N and mag sul 
With mkp optional


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## rkymtnman (Apr 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Yes the recipe calls for cal N and mag sul
> With mkp optional


gotcha. so it's pretty similar to the 3-2-1 Jacks mix.


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## Cold$moke (Apr 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> gotcha. so it's pretty similar to the 3-2-1 Jacks mix.


Basically lol

But i wanted to be different going with hydro gardens cause every body eles is running jacks lol

@southernguy99 

Its ok dude unless you got something to show your just mucking up the thread imo your broken record is getting old bud. 

And when i say "almost clear" it means the water IS clear with no sedimentz floating around
But looks like someone added 1 drop of yellow food coloring barely visible.


Sounds like you need to start your own nute company not fucking about on a weed forum


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## southernguy99 (Apr 10, 2018)

your right Coldsmoke maybe I am I didn't realize how ignorant some of you are, I posted more info in this thread then you learned in the last ten years. my point was simple high quality nutes mixes properly is far better then any other bottles stuff you can get. you obviously have a hard time grasping that simple concept. but maybe when you learn how to or try the 6 pack method you'll realize the difference. you have no clue what I've did in the past or and what I may have started or and been involved in nice try and fucking around here funny coming from you when you didn't even know how to mix your own from scratch or know what 6 pack was or anything.


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## southernguy99 (Apr 10, 2018)

and as far as im4satori goes him and I along with Dr.who already had a chat and yes those guys know there stuff, but we listened to each other and in the end i think I pointed some stuff out to them they were not aware of as well as they did to me. I be interested to see if they tested what I suggested. and if anyone wants to suggest or discreated anything I said in this thread with any contradictory journals etc feel free too, but I can tell you this coldsmoke i've been around the nutes industry long enough that I might just know a bit more then you think.


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## im4satori (Apr 10, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Im still learning its nuances
> 
> But the highest i took them was 1180 ppm
> Which was
> ...


I didn't re-run the numbers ...but just be careful with the higher amounts of mkp...all the P isn't really required, its on option for those who like the high P feeds in late bloom but id bet youd be fine not raising it

again, I didn't re-run the numbers so......


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Apr 10, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> your right Coldsmoke maybe I am I didn't realize how ignorant some of you are, I posted more info in this thread then you learned in the last ten years. my point was simple high quality nutes mixes properly is far better then any other bottles stuff you can get. you obviously have a hard time grasping that simple concept. but maybe when you learn how to or try the 6 pack method you'll realize the difference. you have no clue what I've did in the past or and what I may have started or and been involved in nice try and fucking around here funny coming from you when you didn't even know how to mix your own from scratch or know what 6 pack was or anything.


Dude, I can't stand to be civil any more. You are fucking tedious and arrogant as hell. Seriously shut your fucking wordhole until you can afford people around you an ounce of respect. 

Nobody likes you. 

/thread


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 10, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> your right Coldsmoke maybe I am I didn't realize how ignorant some of you are, I posted more info in this thread then you learned in the last ten years. my point was simple high quality nutes mixes properly is far better then any other bottles stuff you can get. you obviously have a hard time grasping that simple concept. but maybe when you learn how to or try the 6 pack method you'll realize the difference. you have no clue what I've did in the past or and what I may have started or and been involved in nice try and fucking around here funny coming from you when you didn't even know how to mix your own from scratch or know what 6 pack was or anything.


No no im Serious start a nute co and ill run testers for you 

Better yet why dont you mix some up for us to buy from. Ya

Ignorance is bliss bud 

Why dont you start your own thread and get the masses educated.

Since you are so awsome we should all tune in to learn from das masters oof budtz ,heil


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 10, 2018)

Dude im sure if i wanted to spend the time to learn more i could do the same....but ive already read more then i care to admit about this fuckin plant lol and not just forum threads haha

Unfortunately my life requires me to do other things 

Hence why i buy nutrients

Not because im too dumb to figure it out
Its cause i grow well enough i dont need to care lol

Please start a new thread ill join in there


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 10, 2018)

im4satori said:


> I didn't re-run the numbers ...but just be careful with the higher amounts of mkp...all the P isn't really required, its on option for those who like the high P feeds in late bloom but id bet youd be fine not raising it
> 
> again, I didn't re-run the numbers so......


My bad buddy


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

Ok I ordered both the megacrop and the chem-gro. Any day now.

I guess im gunna start one of the nutes on a set of blue dream (about a foot tall now) that's been on house and garden nutes, a shot or two of bio bizz kelp, 5ml of raw humic acid miixed in and a shot of cal/mag. Sitting on top of an 18 gallon rez under an 8 bulb t-5, then it goes to the 25 gallon rez with a titan ebb and flow rig spread out under three t-5's then it goes to a 40-50 gallon rez titan ebb and flow rig under two1000 hps.

I'm thinking about liking the megacrop because of the extra stuff in it that I use and like and like not having to buy and using that as my nutes from now on.

So the ? is use the megacrop on the BD and then try the chem-gro on a set of GG#4 ( fresh rooted cuts) that will be coming up after the BD moves down the line. I think the megacrop is going to play with the BD nicer than the chem-gro. ?????

I also have a set of gg#4 under the 3 t-5's right now that I am thinking about putting into a flower room that are getting pretty big and am running out of h&g nutes but have enough nutes to finish out a flower run that I have going now, so I think that is what I need to do so the gg#4 will have to go from h&g nutes in veg to the new dry nutes at the start of flower. ???? Sound reasonable? Pitfalls?

Pics are the bd before and after i had to deal with the ph issue and the gg#4


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 10, 2018)

i've tried mega and you are comparing apples to oranges.

the mega has way more of everything including silica. if you supplement the chem gro equally, then let's see the side by side


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i've tried mega and you are comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> the mega has way more of everything including silica. if you supplement the chem gro equally, then let's see the side by side


The bd is coming off of a bad ph trip cuz of my ph probe and being brain damaged and not catching it. I do think the mega will play better with the bd. I'll put you down as undecided. 

I can't cuz im out of amino acid and out of money. the bd is going to secondary veg and the gg is going to flower this weekend. then the new cuts will go to first veg.

I thought that we all agreed that we didnt need to supplement the chem-gro. But I will throw some kelp in there for the roots in the new gg set maybe a shot of silica but im out of amino acid.


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i've tried mega and you are comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> the mega has way more of everything including silica. if you supplement the chem gro equally, then let's see the side by side


But the price is comparable isn’t it? Well not for me, shipping adds a gazillion dollars to it all. But it would seem to me that at the price point of both, if you had to add to the Chem gro to get comparable results would it not make sense to run MC? I’ve only ran the MC for two weeks and I have no roots so I’m still on the fence lol.


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 10, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> I thought that we all agreed that we didnt need to supplement the chem-gro.


i'm not a nutes expert by far but i read the website last nite: if the nutrient analysis is correct, then it's low in Mg, no Ca, and alot of micros are missing. and no silica, no sulfur too.


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 10, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> But the price is comparable isn’t it? Well not for me, shipping adds a gazillion dollars to it all. But it would seem to me that at the price point of both, if you had to add to the Chem gro to get comparable results would it not make sense to run MC? I’ve only ran the MC for two weeks and I have no roots so I’m still on the fence lol.


you can read about my experience withe mega on their ad site here.

i guess it's up to you, do you want to add a bunch of stuff to your res? i want a one part nute, maybe 2 additives and done. K.I.S.S


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you can read about my experience withe mega on their ad site here.
> 
> i guess it's up to you, do you want to add a bunch of stuff to your res? i want a one part nute, maybe 2 additives and done. K.I.S.S


Yes I hear ya, like I said, I’m having some major issues right now (no roots is concerning lol) and the only thing I’ve changed in 5 years is my nutes . I have enough of my aqua flakes knock off to do one run and don’t have time to figure out if it is in fact the MC so I’m switching back tomorrow . Maybe give the MC a go outside . I must have missed your post but I’ll have a look.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> you can read about my experience withe mega on their ad site here.
> 
> i guess it's up to you, do you want to add a bunch of stuff to your res? i want a one part nute, maybe 2 additives and done. K.I.S.S



im on page 25 of that thread


----------



## Tim1987 (Apr 10, 2018)

I think the topic, is subjective.
I believe in quality. But price too.
Also your individual needs in your garden.


For instance.
Mine is dirt cheap. $70 Australian, for a 5 litre kit.
It suits my needs excellently!
I don't have to use any ph up/down. It buffers my tap water fine. I love that.
I'm in 100% coir. I use it from seedling, right through to flower.
No supplements. No calmag, pk booster, nothing.
  
A 1 litre kit from Advanced Nutrients, costs $40 Australian.

My seeds broke ground on 28/01/2018.
Flipped 15/03/2018.

 

I think just finding a nutrient, that suits your needs, is most important. Doesn't matter the brand.


----------



## Budley Doright (Apr 10, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> The bd is coming off of a bad ph trip cuz of my ph probe and being brain damaged and not catching it. I do think the mega will play better with the bd. I'll put you down as undecided.
> 
> I can't cuz im out of amino acid and out of money. the bd is going to secondary veg and the gg is going to flower this weekend. then the new cuts will go to first veg.
> 
> I thought that we all agreed that we didnt need to supplement the chem-gro. But I will throw some kelp in there for the roots in the new gg set maybe a shot of silica but im out of amino acid.


All I’ve used for a while was an Aqua Flakes copy that is mixed in town and Vitanimo and it has worked well for my setup. Can’t get the copy now as they’ve went totally wholesale with no storefront  they were also busted, biggest meth operation in Ontario lol. I think they lost their chemist lol.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i'm not a nutes expert by far but i read the website last nite: if the nutrient analysis is correct, then it's low in Mg, no Ca, and alot of micros are missing. and no silica, no sulfur too.


Without double checking I thought that they had the same micro's just different ratio's. I forgot I typed them down. Just the sulfer and silica in the megacrop is different I guess. No biggy.

CHEM-GRO 4-20 HYDROPONIC FORMULA 4-20-39

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

Total Nitrogen (N) ………………………………………......……………4.00%
Nitrate Nitrogen…………………………….............……………3.50%
Ammoniacal Nitrogen………………............………………….0.50%
Available Phosphoric Acid (P205)………………………………20.00%
Soluble Potash (K20)………………….....…………………………… 39.00%
Available Magnesium as (Mg)………..……………………………..0.35%

TRACE ELEMENTS

Boron as (B) ………………………………………………........…………….0.20%
Copper as (Cu)………………………………………........………………… 0.05%
Iron (Chelated) as (Fe).. ……………………………………………..0.41%
Manganese as (Mn)…………………………........…………………………0.22%
Molybdenum as (Mo) ………………........………………………………0.01%
Zinc as (Zn)…………………………………........…………………………….0.05%

Derived From:
Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Muriate of Potash,
Iron Chelate (DTPA), Boric Acid, Iron Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate,
Manganese Sulfate, Copper Chelate (EDTA), Zinc Chelate (EDTA), Zinc Sulfate
Molybdic Acid
=============================================================

MEGACROP 10-5-14

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

Total Nitrogen (N) …………………………………………………10.00%
Nitrate Nitrogen………………………….......………………9.60%
Ammoniacal Nitrogen……………………………….......….0.4%
Available Phosphoric Acid (P205)……………………5.5%
Soluble Potash (K20)……………………………………………… 14.5%
Calcium (Ca)............................6.5%
Available Magnesium as (Mg)……………………………..1.9%

TRACE ELEMENTS
Sulfer..................................1.1%
Boron as (B) ……………………………………………………………...0.08%
Copper as (Cu)………………………………………………………..… 0.05%
Iron (Chelated) as (Fe).. ……………………………..0.08%
Manganese as (Mn)……………………………………………..………0.08%
Molybdenum as (Mo) …………………………………………….……0.01%
Zinc as (Zn)………………………………………………………..……….0.11%
Silicon (S)............................0.1%


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Yes I hear ya, like I said, I’m having some major issues right now (no roots is concerning lol) and the only thing I’ve changed in 5 years is my nutes . I have enough of my aqua flakes knock off to do one run and don’t have time to figure out if it is in fact the MC so I’m switching back tomorrow . Maybe give the MC a go outside . I must have missed your post but I’ll have a look.


He's talking about he megacrop thread in the advertisers section

For roots I used roots accelerator, rhizoblast, kelp, hydrogaurd. not at the same time but all seemed to help with the root department.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> I think the topic, is subjective.
> I believe in quality. But price too.
> Also your individual needs in your garden.
> 
> ...


Here for the 5 liter of h&g is about 85 (us) at the hydro store but that is just for the part A and B then you have to buy the rest of the bottles.

And I agree and the plants agree. They dont know where their food comes from and they dont care.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> i'm not a nutes expert by far but i read the website last nite: if the nutrient analysis is correct, then it's low in Mg, no Ca, and alot of micros are missing. and no silica, no sulfur too.


You add the cal and you get the sulfer and mag from the epsom salt and I gots a big jug of silicon. But yeah the mega has the kelp, amino, silicon, b vitamins in it already so thats a bonus


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## im4satori (Apr 10, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Without double checking I thought that they had the same micro's just different ratio's. I forgot I typed them down. Just the sulfer and silica in the megacrop is different I guess. No biggy.
> 
> CHEM-GRO 4-20 HYDROPONIC FORMULA 4-20-39
> 
> ...


maybe this was mentioned but

the chem grow is meant to be mixed with calcium nitrate which is where the calcium comes from in that mix

calcium and sulfur (and silica) are incompatible in most cases in a concentrate

that's why most fertilizers come in at least two parts

theyre are a few 1 part fetilizers and those products have something they've done (don't ask me to explain I don't recall) to allow the sulfur and calcium to exist in one liquid concentrate ... but id be shocked if you find that as a possibility in a dry salt fertilizer

so my first concern would be how do they manage to put calcium in the same powder as the sulfur...(or is the mega crop a liquid product and I missed it?)

the silica perhaps theyre able to use it in trace amounts and get away with it but I wouldn't be surprised if it creates some insoluble materials when you mix it

I also want to point out one more bit of info that I find curious..... the mega crop lists Ca 6.5%... but when you go down to the "derived from " list theres no mention of any regents containing calcium

is the mega crop a 2 part mix? did I miss something? wheres the calcium source?

one last bit, im not personally a fan of adding organic material such as kelp or aminos to my reservoir in hydro..... it creates some nasty shit that can lead to problems in your reservoir...but im a sterile hydro guy and im not one to use BB and such in hydro, that's just me

I prefer a crystal clear, sterile reservoir, my 2 cents...not everyone will agree and theres more than one weay to get good results

so for all of those reason id likely go with chem gro personally for hydro

in soil maybe the megacrop might be better due to the additional organic additives (kelp, b12, aminos)...my rule is organics go in soil!!! not in hydro!!


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 10, 2018)

im4satori said:


> maybe this was mentioned but
> 
> the chem grow is meant to be mixed with calcium nitrate which is where the calcium comes from in that mix
> 
> ...



ooops I copied the chem-gro info of their ingredients then just recopied it for the megacrop and then just changed the numbers for the megacrop so i didnt have to type out all the big words and added what was missing because the chem-gro doesnt have calcium in it. And then I forgot about the derived from at the bottom not being in sync with the megacrop since it came from the chem-gro. So I just deleted the derived from part of the mega crop part as to not cause anymore confusion.

Sooo the megacrops calcium is from calcium nitrate.....its a one part dry fertilizer. as far a s the sulfer wouldnt the megacrop use epsom salt for their mag and wouldnt the sulfer come from that = epsom salt? as for silica the raw brand has a dry silica dont know what its called off hand it might be something like that. And then theres the calcium nitrate. All available in dry form. You can google megacrop and see what it is. Im sure you have and word on the street is you know all this stuff. I cant really imagine not running biostimulates in my rez. i am going to try and not use amino acid any more with my current nutes or with the chem-gro as i dont like buying it anymore. You know what all those things do, its all goodness. The one thing you definitely dont want to add to your rez is a fish emulsion product. I tried the bio bizz fish product they have and let me tell you it mucked and fucked up my rez with a think coat of shit all over in just a day. But the fish mix has alot of aminos in it and I use it to foliar feed sometimes for the nitrogen just never in a hydro rez, dirt for sure, not hydro.


----------



## im4satori (Apr 10, 2018)

im sure they've done there due process and figured out how to do it.
general hydro also has the maxibloom line which also contains a complete fertilizer all in one (which Id forgotten/spaced on my previous post...stoner brain fart) so it can clearly be done....

maybe since the micro nutes are from chelate and not from for example zinc sulfate, copper sulfate and so on they get by without the solubility issues

that's also a very low sulfur % they managed to achieve by avoiding potassium sulfate and for the most part magnesium sulfate ..
I know they've got magnesium sulfate listed on the derived from list but its got to be a very very small amount given the low % of sulfur

but ya it looks like a good product based on the label


as for the kelp, I prefer to foliar feed it and keep the reservoir clean


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## im4satori (Apr 10, 2018)

mega crop 5 grams per gallon

N 132ppm
P 29 ppm
K 154 ppm
Ca 86 ppm
Mg 25 ppm

so your going to need about 1 gram (1/4 tsp) per gallon Epsom salt to balance it



comparatively

chem grow per gallon
2 grams mix
2 grams calnite

N 103
P 47
K 171


so you can see theres a good degree of difference in the 2 fertilizers with the mega crop have more of a std veg ratio while the chem grow has lower N higher P and ample K... which is generally a bloom mix


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## Budley Doright (Apr 11, 2018)

im4satori said:


> maybe this was mentioned but
> 
> the chem grow is meant to be mixed with calcium nitrate which is where the calcium comes from in that mix
> 
> ...


Thanks for this .


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 11, 2018)

Side by side nute comparisons can not be done by noobs lol

I apologize if you arent.

But as far as i know mega crop is basically dry form of advanced nutrients.

As a guy who has used advanced for the last 5-7 years

I like the chem gro better so far

Ymmv


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 11, 2018)

I like how i can tailor my mix way easy

Time to taper the plant down no probs

Need to boost in bloom no probs

Plus i like how user friendly it is for top ups

No more ph down needed cor top ups


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 11, 2018)

And as im4satori said ITS CLEAR


And dissovles very fast RAW nutes left sediments chem grow hasnt that ive seen


Been making my plants very greasy
My rooms been smelling like a fruit basket haha


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 11, 2018)

Apology accepted if that was directed at myself.

Going to go get my chem-gro it came in yesterday. Going to start a flower run with them tomorrow. 50 gallon ro water using the new nutes might add a couple shots of silica, a little humic acid and I think thats it.

How often are we doing water changes with these nutes???


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## Cold$moke (Apr 11, 2018)

I dont know about the humic 

Might want to test it after you do a run. but
I dont know what your experience level is

I only apologized if you weren't a noob lol

But asking about res changes doesn't really indicate experience so i dont know what to think 

Not trying to be rude


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## Cold$moke (Apr 11, 2018)

How often you change your res is up to you and your environment 

If you want to try and tailor feed them you would ch ange out weekly.

If not then you can go longer

All up to how you want to run your show


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## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

weekly!!!!!


humic acid is not for hydro and wont do anything but make a mess...
if you want to use those in your resevior youll want fulvic acid, not humic

humic is for soil only and always... maybe it might work in coco im not sure but id go with fulvic either way


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 11, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> I dont know about the humic
> 
> Might want to test it after you do a run. but
> I dont know what your experience level is
> ...


Right on I was just wondering what everybody was doing. I used to change weekly but I do ten days now. I'm gunna stick with ten days might run it out two weeks. we'll see.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 11, 2018)

im4satori said:


> weekly!!!!!
> 
> 
> humic acid is not for hydro and wont do anything but make a mess...
> ...


After reading what you wrote I guess it makes sense with the organic molecule not being readily available to the plant but I do add microbes at the water change to keep the root rot away. It also helps against ph swings. Ive been using it for a long time so right or wrong, and Im sure im wrong. The mess isnt a problem. I only use 1ml per ten gallons so its just a taste of humic not a feeding.

Taken right from the npk website about raw humic acid.
*RAW HUMIC ACID: chelate*
RAW Humic Acid contains 59% Humic Acids derived from Leonardite which is the most concentrated, water Soluble humic acid product on the market today. In nature, humic acid has a buffering effect on the pH of soils. It can raise the pH of acid soils and lower the pH of alkaline soils. RAW Humic Acid is also great for hydroponics applications, especially when added to RO filtered water. RAW Humic acid is a natural chelator and is a beneficial supplement to all feeding schedules. *Works in conjunction with all nutrient and feeding programs.*


----------



## PetFlora (Apr 11, 2018)

Cold$moke said:


> Side by side nute comparisons can not be done by noobs lol
> 
> I apologize if you arent.
> 
> ...


What hydro method are you using?? 

That could have an influence on one nute over another. Im guessing maybe one method could provide more,,,,, not just DO, but magnetic attraction, too. 

Water flowing over waterfalls has the most measured DO AND is the most bioavailable to humans. Pretty sure that characteristic holds true for all living things/organisms that require water to survive. well, that's the knowledge that I am trying to simulate via inexpensive DIY


----------



## rkymtnman (Apr 11, 2018)

im4satori said:


> weekly!!!!!
> 
> 
> humic acid is not for hydro and wont do anything but make a mess...
> ...


BioAg Ful Power is supposed to be the best stuff. cold pressed, very clear, etc. I tried a bottle and really couldn't see a huge difference. I do diffrent strains each grow so it's hard to make an accurate assessment of it.


----------



## bird mcbride (Apr 11, 2018)

I use the spent res water to feed the moms and anything else, clones etc in the green room...drain to waste. This saves on fertilizer in the green room and it works just fine. This practice also prevents fuck ups from killing the moms.

I noticed that in higher elevations less fertilizer can be used compared to sea level. This must be because nitrogen dissipates faster at higher altitudes. When I start a new op the rule of thumb is use 1/6 of what is recommended on the instructions per gallon of water recommended for outdoor soil grows for mixing the res. This is enough to start and it can be adjusted from there. Haste makes waste. I use dolomite lime as a ph stabilizer. I can get away with this because I grow in rock. Dolomite lime has to be adjusted in like fertilizer. I take one gallon of the water I'm using and ph down it with dolomite lime to about 5.5-6 ph. Then scale it to the res.

Every once in a while I'll run fresh water through for a cycle and see what changes the table may be causing before adding anything. I won't throw this water away, I'll just balance and add the fertilizer the next day.

I dump the res every five to seven days. With seedlings a run up to two weeks wouldn't hurt the res, but as the roots develop, the more the plant excretes back into the res and when you are seeing larger top ups, it's time to change the res more frequently. It can be used in the green room.

I foliage feed right from the res. I also shower them with fresh water also. Plants don't care much for having the underside of their leaves wet...so always spray downward on them.

The part about what fertilizer to use, I've found that as long as you get the numbers somewhere around correct, even Miracle Grow can grow a nice bud in hydro. It was costing me fifty a month just for fertilizer but that bucket of Miracle Grow lasted until the expiry date, potent fertilizer. I liked how it turned the res blue,,,lmao. I even tried that stuff that from the Dollar store, it turned the res green  So just about anything will work as long as the numbers are correct. Echo bloom was the nineties fertilizer. 

Then...after it's all happening, you can set a timer to wake you up from the stupor every five to seven days


----------



## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> After reading what you wrote I guess it makes sense with the organic molecule not being readily available to the plant but I do add microbes at the water change to keep the root rot away. It also helps against ph swings. Ive been using it for a long time so right or wrong, and Im sure im wrong. The mess isnt a problem. I only use 1ml per ten gallons so its just a taste of humic not a feeding.
> 
> Taken right from the npk website about raw humic acid.
> *RAW HUMIC ACID: chelate*
> RAW Humic Acid contains 59% Humic Acids derived from Leonardite which is the most concentrated, water Soluble humic acid product on the market today. In nature, humic acid has a buffering effect on the pH of soils. It can raise the pH of acid soils and lower the pH of alkaline soils. RAW Humic Acid is also great for hydroponics applications, especially when added to RO filtered water. RAW Humic acid is a natural chelator and is a beneficial supplement to all feeding schedules. *Works in conjunction with all nutrient and feeding programs.*


idk man...id do a search on humic acid vs fulvic acid and see if theres any other info that supports humic acid in hydro other than that from this brand

maybe they've done something to make it available thru some form of chelate idk but that's a new one on me and im not sure why theyd bother since fulvic acid is available

its been a long long time since I read the info so im not going to do a good job explaining it but as I recall humic acid normally requires an organic break down before its available which normally happens in soil

maybe you BB are helping with that im not sure...either way fulvic acid would be a better choice for hydro

as far as you reservoir changes...theyres guys that never change the reservoir for the entire grow.... but the less frequently you change the reservoir the more prone you will be to root disease... if your feeling good about your use of BB and your plants are healthy and you can go longer so be it

to me...not changing the reservoir is lazy unless your short on water... but that's just me and my 2 cents

one thing that's for sure,,, theres more than one way to get it done so my personal opinions are just that based on my experience... some people have different experiences and different environmental conditions that may be different than mine

I think Ive offered what I can, good luck!


----------



## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

I did a quick search and apparently the school of thought or rules have changed since I read this material 15+ years ago

so I stand corrected again...peeps are using humic acid in hydro

I personally wouldnt but to each there own

I might consider it in coco maybe but in my rockwool NO WAY!

I also don't want all that junk gumming up my drip lines over time and clogging the emitters


----------



## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

https://manicbotanix.com/fulvic-acid-hydroponics/

I was unable to copy and paste from this site

scroll down to the last paragraph of the section titled humic substances and youll get the answer I was reaching for in my memory banks

also take note of how many times the discussion speaks of decomposition
humic acid isn't fully available unless its gone thru the process of decomp which happens inn soil...no so much in hydro, maybe fractionally im guessing with BB maybe!

fulvic acid is readily available in hydro without the need for decomposition and therefore a better choice for hydro vs humic acid

this info is what I was schooled on many moons ago, I also see lots of sites suggesting the use of humic acid in hydro but that doesn't make it correct, it just makes it the next fad in hydro trying to sell more bottles...idk

if you like what its doing for you then keep on trucking


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## southernguy99 (Apr 11, 2018)

Hey Im4satori Question for you if you don't mind, over your years of running hydro have you used or mixed any formulas from complete scratch, where its not soley based of NPK as those are subject to opinions and can easily be changed per liking in the formula , but more so based of ratios of elements to each other.I have some basic 6 pack formulas lab tested i'd send you if you would like to dissect , I'd be interested in your thoughts if you played with these before.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 11, 2018)

im4satori said:


> I did a quick search and apparently the school of thought or rules have changed since I read this material 15+ years ago
> 
> so I stand corrected again...peeps are using humic acid in hydro
> 
> ...



Right on I'll keep on truckin and use it. Honestly I cant tell if it makes a difference or not but its in there at a very low rate.

Ive been mucking up my nutrient ratios for awhile, since I posted this thread and got put in the right direction it has dawned on me how bad I have had my ratios. 

Whats BB? I couldnt figure it out by the context of your post.


----------



## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Right on I'll keep on truckin and use it. Honestly I cant tell if it makes a difference or not but its in there at a very low rate.
> 
> Ive been mucking up my nutrient ratios for awhile, since I posted this thread and got put in the right direction it has dawned on me how bad I have had my ratios. Not to be too bold but I expect to break personal records. The plants are all topped up and looking pretty good and have a good size to them. The only thing that I have a concern about is the bulbs as they are a year old, I was going to run them one more time but I guess I have to get new ones tomorrow and eliminate that problem. Fug if I want to do that though but it has to be done. I have no excuse's from now on. Well I have one, I suck at math and figuring out proper ratios is math so I guess I need to learn how to do that since I wont be filling a glass up to a line anymore, hell I didnt even do that right. Close enough isnt good enough.
> 
> Whats BB? I couldnt figure it out by the context of your post.


beneficial bacterias


----------



## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> Hey Im4satori Question for you if you don't mind, over your years of running hydro have you used or mixed any formulas from complete scratch, where its not soley based of NPK as those are subject to opinions and can easily be changed per liking in the formula , but more so based of ratios of elements to each other.I have some basic 6 pack formulas lab tested i'd send you if you would like to dissect , I'd be interested in your thoughts if you played with these before.


I only mix my own nutes from scratch

I use a dosatron injection system and mix part A and part B tanks from the raw elements including the micros


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## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

https://www.qcsupply.com/120602-dosatron-dm11f-diaphram-injector.html


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## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> Hey Im4satori Question for you if you don't mind, over your years of running hydro have you used or mixed any formulas from complete scratch, where its not soley based of NPK as those are subject to opinions and can easily be changed per liking in the formula , but more so based of ratios of elements to each other.I have some basic 6 pack formulas lab tested i'd send you if you would like to dissect , I'd be interested in your thoughts if you played with these before.


if you want me to convert the nutrient packs you have into numbers that can be compared id can do that for you just DM me

I appreciate the offer but I got enough fertilizer to last me a life time buying them in 50lb bags I could make enough for me you and everyone else in the room lol


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## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

calcium nitrate
magnesium nitrate
potassium nitrate
mono potassium phosphate
potassium sulfate
magnesium sulfate
potassium chloride
potassium silicate
pek acid

iron dtpa
zinc sulfate
copper sulfate
boric acid
manganese sulfate
molyb



the above list is what I have on hand plus a few other odds and ends and micro chelates if I want them

I also get my kelp and amino products from kelp4less.com


----------



## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

anything with N goes in stock tank A along with iron dtpa (this tank has the calcium)
anything with sulfur goes in stock tank B (including all the micros)

calcium and sulfur kept in separate containers to prevent gypsum

I can pretty close to duplicate any brand of nutrient on the shelf for pennies

silica I don't use in my system, to do so id need a third injector but I don't need the ph rise associated with its use ... I foliar feed it along with the kelp or fulvic or aminos if I choose to use them

all of these prodcuts are more effective and usefull foliar fed and its a lot less expensive cuz youll use a lot less... and your reservoir wont grow sludge

silica in particular is extremely effective against PM if sprayed it works similar to the same as green cure


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 11, 2018)

PetFlora said:


> What hydro method are you using??
> 
> That could have an influence on one nute over another. Im guessing maybe one method could provide more,,,,, not just DO, but magnetic attraction, too.
> 
> Water flowing over waterfalls has the most measured DO AND is the most bioavailable to humans. Pretty sure that characteristic holds true for all living things/organisms that require water to survive. well, that's the knowledge that I am trying to simulate via inexpensive DIY


Rdwc with 6 waterfalls in 4 site set up


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## southernguy99 (Apr 11, 2018)

exactly Im4satori , it sounds like were mixing practically the same, as well as foliar feed I use a reservoir so usually mix direct to it , but I can also do the same by mixing a part A and B concentrate and use from them . my formulas is broke down to show everything including grams per liter for each element and then lab tested to show each elements individual ppm value. I'b interested in comparing element concentrations and ratio's


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## im4satori (Apr 11, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> exactly Im4satori , it sounds like were mixing practically the same, as well as foliar feed I use a reservoir so usually mix direct to it , but I can also do the same by mixing a part A and B concentrate and use from them . my formulas is broke down to show everything including grams per liter for each element and then lab tested to show each elements individual ppm value. I'b interested in comparing element concentrations and ratio's


ive been running organic soil for a bit just for something new...but im in the process of switching back to my dtw rockwool only because for me its less work than building and re-amending organic soil (true organic not the bullshit liquid organic nutes)

my bloom numbers look like this

2:1:3 RATIO NPK +/- depending on my mood and stage

80 to 120 ppm N
40 to 60 ppm P
150 to 180 ppm K
100 ppm Ca
50 pm Mg

veg

120 to 130 ppm N
35 ppm P +/-
130 to 150 ppm K
100 Ca
50 Mg

I usually sit between EC 1.2 to 1.4 max at full strength


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## Johnny Lawrence (Apr 12, 2018)

Just did a run with Megacrop. Well, my results are different from what I've been reading here on RIU. I'm used to my PH being pretty much rock solid from rez change(weekly). With MC, I had to do daily PH adjusting - sometimes up, sometimes down. Not a big deal, since I had no trips on my schedule and had the time to tweak on it. First few weeks of flowering looked solid. Then around week three or four, the girls stopped drinking the amount of water they usually do. This trend continued till harvest. A couple weeks from harvest it was clear that MC was severely underperforming. Too late at that point. I harvested a third of what I usually do using Megacrop.

Lesson learned. Thankfully, I rock more than one flowering room, so my other room performed as well as it usually does.

One run of Megacrop cost me a couple grand.


----------



## Johnny Lawrence (Apr 12, 2018)

And if anybody was wondering - ebb & flow in LECA.


----------



## Cold$moke (Apr 12, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback


----------



## im4satori (Apr 12, 2018)

Johnny Lawrence said:


> And if anybody was wondering - ebb & flow in LECA.


what are the other nutes your rockin

was there anything about the megacrop run that indicated it was too much N?
did you get foxtails, was it a strain youd run before?


----------



## Johnny Lawrence (Apr 12, 2018)

im4satori said:


> what are the other nutes your rockin
> 
> was there anything about the megacrop run that indicated it was too much N?
> did you get foxtails, was it a strain youd run before?


I've run the same strains for years now. I generally run my own modified version of Lucas.

I don't know how to explain it. The flowers just never fully developed. And yeah, there was some slight foxtailing compared to what I'm used to. A lot more larf then I usually get too. Not good timing either, as I just made a new deal with a shop. The purchasing manager was understanding though and is still going to pick up from me next month.


----------



## im4satori (Apr 12, 2018)

Johnny Lawrence said:


> I've run the same strains for years now. I generally run my own modified version of Lucas.
> 
> I don't know how to explain it. The flowers just never fully developed. And yeah, there was some slight foxtailing compared to what I'm used to. A lot more larf then I usually get too. Not good timing either, as I just made a new deal with a shop. The purchasing manager was understanding though and is still going to pick up from me next month.


ya the fox tails and leafy buds and the high ratio of N in the mix might suggest the mix is heavy on N for bloom


the megacrop ratios are a long way away from anything even close to a lucas formula which has low N and super high P

looking back at the numbers comparing a lucas ratio at about the same EC te numbers would look like this

80 ppm N
80 ppm P
160 ppm K

you can compare that to the megacrop numbers I previously posted and see theres a huge difference in the amount of N compared to lucas


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## Johnny Lawrence (Apr 12, 2018)

im4satori said:


> ya the fox tails and leafy buds and the high ratio of N in the mix might suggest the mix is heavy on N for bloom
> 
> 
> the megacrop ratios are a long way away from anything even close to a lucas formula which has low N and super high P
> ...


I knew all that going into it, but was convinced by many growers here and elsewhere claiming good results. The high ratio of nitrogen did cause me a bit of concern.


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## im4satori (Apr 12, 2018)

Johnny Lawrence said:


> I knew all that going into it, but was convinced by many growers here and elsewhere claiming good results. The high ratio of nitrogen did cause me a bit of concern.


some strains are more sensitive to N than others... kush strain for example may not do well with high N or high temps

and type of medium im sure plays a big roll in mitigating excess


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## PetFlora (Apr 13, 2018)

Johnny Lawrence said:


> I knew all that going into it, but was convinced by many growers here and elsewhere claiming good results. The high ratio of nitrogen did cause me a bit of concern.


But, like with Hydro Research V + B (another high N one part formula) it should be fine for vegging, no?


----------



## Johnny Lawrence (Apr 13, 2018)

PetFlora said:


> But, like with Hydro Research V + B (another high N one part formula) it should be fine for vegging, no?


Yeah, but I still get unusual and more frequent ph swings than with my standard nute mix.


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 14, 2018)

im4satori said:


> ive been running organic soil for a bit just for something new...but im in the process of switching back to my dtw rockwool only because for me its less work than building and re-amending organic soil (true organic not the bullshit liquid organic nutes)
> 
> my bloom numbers look like this
> 
> ...


Are you using the 500 or 700 scale. Is everything you post using that scale?


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 14, 2018)

im4satori said:


> mega crop 5 grams per gallon
> 
> N 132ppm
> P 29 ppm
> ...


I have a few questions if you dont mind.
Do you know what the ppm;s for the MPK is?
You have time to make me a formula using the megacrop for bloom to address the high N? Or something do you recommend I do something different than below?

I started my megacrop flower run the other day. I started with 55 gallons and went by the notion of going by ppm's to get where I wanted to be and that was about 700 ppm;s to start my flower run. So it ended to be about 350 grams of megacrop to do that. So I did that, foliar fed them a kelp and fulvic spray, flooded my pots and then I dip out a few gallons out of my res. added 5ml of the Raw bloom microbes to the 3 gallons and topped off all my pots with that mix. Ok. Then I thought I was done then came online and seen your post above. _Ok so I got freaked out and topped of my rez with 5 more gallons of water to bring the ppm's down since I was scared about over doing it._ Then I added 25 grams of epsom salt that same night before the next feeding. I only added the 25 grams so I didnt add too much. I enede up being back at 700ppm's. I dont really have a talent for math/clue with figuring the ratio's out I have always just gone by the H&G feed chart added some things that I thought would help and went for it. I have always understood they like some nitrogen less phosphorous and more potassium. Ok good enough, but it can be better. Im trying to have a better balanced nutrient ratio mix. Adding stuff and getting my nutrients out of balance is my main problem I do believe. So you posted this talking about your mixers_ 2:1:3 RATIO NPK +/- depending on my mood and stage. _2/1/3/ ok sound reasonable to me_.
_
So I went to the mega website https://greenleafnutrients.com/feeding-chart/?v=7516fd43adaa and using the normal feeding chart section there I added 55 gallons and if you do this it says that in late flower I should be only adding 330 grams. Uhhhhh ok? Idk? Seems strange to me.

Then if you go to the ppm calculator I get this. 55 gallons 350 grams.


*Element* *PPM calculation*
Total Nitrogen (N)
168.1103

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
161.3779

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
6.7246

Phosphorous (P)
40.3488

Potassium (K)
202.3413

Magnesium (Mg)
31.9404

Calcium (Ca)
109.2696

Sulfur (S)
18.4920

Iron (Fe)
1.3451

Zinc (Zn)
1.8489

Boron (B)
1.3451

Manganese (Mn)
1.3451

Copper (Cu)
0.8405

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.1680

Silicon (Si)
1.6810

*Total PPM* *579.0903
*
I ended up about 700 ppm;s with what I did, like I said I wanted to be at 700 to start (500 scale) I had about 50 ppm's in my water to start. So add the two together and its 629 my nutrient monitor says 710 ok close enough, were good. (Im ok with the difference in ppm's as my ppm probe may need to have an adjustment. Not worrying about that right now.)

So am I out of balance, where did I screw up?

So if you use the mega feeding calculator why does one say Im maxed out for late bloom at 330 grams, I added 350, and I only had 700 ppm's. Come week five I want to be about 1300 ppm's and that looks like this. And that is 800 grams of megacrop. My gut tells me I want / need less nitrogen for this flowering stage.

55 gallons 800 grams.

*Element* *PPM calculation*
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704

Phosphorous (P)
92.2258

Potassium (K)
462.4945

Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066

Calcium (Ca)
249.7590

Sulfur (S)
42.2674

Iron (Fe)
3.0744

Zinc (Zn)
4.2261

Boron (B)
3.0744

Manganese (Mn)
3.0744

Copper (Cu)
1.9211

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839

Silicon (Si)
3.8422

*Total PPM* *1323.6349
*
I have always fed by ppm's as an indicator of where I needed to be for the plant size and stage of plant growth. Not to be confused with the ratio, I understand the plant wants a certain proper balanced nutrition. I just haven't been exact with that, with my adding this adding that laziness. Thats what I want to dial in. With these nutes it sounds like I dont need to add anything but then again I want to be sure I'm doing it right as I never used dry nutes on this level before.

You know where I'm screwing up??



TIA



_
_


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## im4satori (Apr 14, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Are you using the 500 or 700 scale. Is everything you post using that scale?


ok so heres whats confusing you

theres "active elemental ppm" which would be what youd see if you got a lab test of your source water

it would show you the exact amount of each element in the water

that's a true ppm reading

then theres your ppm meter... it doesn't read true active elemental ppm.... its meant to be used as a bench mark so you can see the changes that are happening in salinity over a given period of time... the meter doesn't actuall read real PPM as in elements

a ppm meter reads EC which is electrical conductivity and coverts the EC to ppm by math conversion using a factor of either 0.7 or 0.5 conversion rate depending on your meter brand

what that means is you cant compare your ppm meter to someone elses unless you know there meter has the same conversion
if I have a ppm meter at 0.5 conversion and yours is 0.7 then they'll read two different things in the same sdolution

so when your ppm meter breaks as they always eventually do... don't buy a ppm meter! buy and EC meter

EC is universal and should be the same no matter the brand, for that reason I don't speak of ppm in reference to your meter...if im referring to the meter I only use EC and only speak in terms of EC otherwise who knows

if I refer to ppm its in reference to elemental ppm and not the results on your meter

so when you lay out the math results for your fertilizer based on the nute calculator... that's not going to jive with your ppm meter


----------



## im4satori (Apr 14, 2018)

the nute calculator is estimating what a lab tested water analysis would show if you sent the solution to a lab to be tested

and it bases itself off the % amounts of each elemnt on the bag and at what weight in grams you add to a given volume of water


----------



## im4satori (Apr 14, 2018)

ok having said all that

now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp

without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement

in order to get the N down you could use less mega and add in mkp and that would fix your ratio but youll end up with to little iron if its reduced (according to the numbers you posted)

iron would need to be at least 1.3ppm or your bound to see def

ideally it would be more like 2.0ppm but you can squeak by with less

if you happen to have iron water as a source water then you might be ok

or
you could get a cheap iron supplement from ebay but it might be more trouble than its worth vs just using something else for bloom or whatever

if you want to get an iron supplement and proceed let me know and I will help you figure out the mix

there is plenty of all the other micro elements to make it work but for whatever reason the iron is low to begin with


----------



## im4satori (Apr 14, 2018)

here is what I shoot for
but keep in mind theres more than one ratio that can work

this is just what I prefer over the other options (bloom)

NPK 2:1:3

K:Ca:Mg 3:2:1

example

N 100 (can be slightly higher + /-20ppm or lowered in late bloom to 80ppm stage dependent)
P 50 (+/-) (wide range of ppm permitted)
K 150 (lower if using coco)
Ca 100 (depending on whats in source water)
Mg 50 (not under 40)


usually anything close to that plus or minus 10ppm to 20ppm (depending) of any element still keeps you in the ball aprk


----------



## im4satori (Apr 14, 2018)

the mega crop just has too much N for bloom imho

trying to reduce it will make the iron fall out...


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 14, 2018)

mega crop is a 10/6/14 is that the same as your 2/1/3? Am I always stuck at 5 grams a gallon max if I give it more will I be out of ratio to achieve a higher ppm? Do I not want a higher ppm? I guess I dont understand about how much to give it. With H&G I just poured out more and went by ppm. Small plants 450-500ppm late veg about 650 then flower and I was thinking I was going to be able to push them to 1300-1400 

You posted this 
mega crop 5 grams per gallon

_N 132ppm
P 29 ppm
K 154 ppm
Ca 86 ppm
Mg 25 ppm

so your going to need about 1 gram (1/4 tsp) per gallon Epsom salt to balance it_


But I went by ppm but i still only added 5 grams a gallon and it came out to 700 ppm's here using the 5oo scale. I guess I don't know how to use these nutrients.

So I bought a bag of megacrop and I want to flower in a hydro system using 45-50 gallons of ro water in and ebb and flow with hydroton, now what do I do again? That's what I don't know.


----------



## im4satori (Apr 14, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> mega crop is a 10/6/14 is that the same as your 2/1/3? Am I always stuck at 5 grams a gallon max if I give it more will I be out of ratio to achieve a higher ppm? Do I not want a higher ppm? I guess I dont understand about how much to give it. With H&G I just poured out more and went by ppm. Small plants 450-500ppm late veg about 650 then flower and I was thinking I was going to be able to push them to 1300-1400
> 
> You posted this
> mega crop 5 grams per gallon
> ...


ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good!

full strength veg mix would be

5 grams mega
1 grams Epsom (1/4 tsp)

that's how youd mix it for veg

id find something else to use for bloom that has less N


as for the 2/1/3

that's ratios describiing the npk amounts

100 N
50 P
150 K

that is 2/1/3 n/p/k .....100/50/150

these numbers are a conversion of the % amounts listed on the bag

read my previous posts again becuae I feel like you may not have retained it all

the way the industry has these things set up is confusing and really makes little sense except to keep people confused

ppm meters shouldn't be called ppm meters or should be eliminated from the market all together because it confuses the conversation


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## im4satori (Apr 14, 2018)

imho

there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!

that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max

in many cases EC 1.4 is more than adequate......... small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0

seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6

so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
EC 1.5.....750ppm

keep in mind if someone else has a ppm meter that is on the 700 scale
EC 1.5 would be 1050ppm


I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher

you don't have to take my advise...its cool, its no sweat for me

just remember me a few years from now when you realize your over feeding...


----------



## bird mcbride (Apr 15, 2018)

In my Flood and Drain Hydro tables I use 1/6 of what is recommended per gallon of water for outdoor grows.

The fertilizer preferred by Kush growers in the nineties was Eco Bloom A&B. Someone said they've changed the A since, but I don't know for sure.

I scale the fertilizer with weigh scales because it can get heavier per volume over time if it gets a bit warm but it can still be used.


----------



## southernguy99 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> imho
> 
> there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!
> 
> ...



I agree fully with this . less is more with all this new hybrid stuff etc. I have some old genetic from like 20 years ago that will eat EC2.0 for the fun of it, other then that I haven't really seen anything that takes of 1.4 -1.5 . in fact I have a one here now from a notable breeder its max is 1.2 EC


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> ok so heres whats confusing you
> 
> theres "active elemental ppm" which would be what youd see if you got a lab test of your source water
> 
> ...


None of what you posted above I was confused about. I already understand what my ppm meter reads and how it works. You have posted actual individual ppm amounts for each elements in the past. So I assumed you have knowledge of these products or work in a lab and have run these products at work to break down each individual element, something like that idk. Or are you using the megacrop website when you talk about the 5 grams per gallon and whats in it using their product?

Ok I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to help I understand how frustrating it is trying to help people that dont know or understand what they need to know. And I do appreciate the time your putting in. I do know that if I cant understand this with how your trying to teach me you will bail and that's cool.



I suppose im trying to do this without learning any math. What he goal is to feed my plants a proper balanced nutrient diet or or something close to it, or at least better than what i have been doing. Im like the guy in the taken movie I have developed a certain set of skills of getting deficiencies and correcting them or not correcting them. Im not to worried about an iron deficiency, hell I would be happy if thats all I got.

Like I said I have only used H&G nutrients. (im just going to throw random numbers out there to make my point>) 300ml to 50 gallons of water gets me 800 ppm then if I add more nutes I get more ppm's. Its what their feed chart says to do. And when I do that I know Im still good. Is that the case with the megacrop/dry nutes can I add more grams to the same amount of water and the ppms will go up and will I still be good-- as far as the ratio or the amounts of each element in the res. but dont focus on me saying elements Im will be just going by ppm's with my meter to judge what / how much im feeding it. I read you dont like to feed hot but I have fed hot, this hot with H&G and didnt burn my plants (strain specific some strains you might) Down below in this post. Thats the wrong thing to do to much nitrogen. but Dont focus on me saying nitrogen I am going by ppm's all the other numbers come up to. I cant do it like that? 

so yeah this post is getting out of hand even for myself its taking too long and I have more posting to do with what you said earlier to post about. I think I have a solution but I will post that later on how I think we can agree that this needs to be done but I wanted to just use the megacrop and the megacrop alone from start to finish or megacrop and some other stuff to tweek it, tweek it in the right direction for what I want to acheive.


55 gallons 800 grams.

*Element* *PPM calculation*
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704

Phosphorous (P)
92.2258

Potassium (K)
462.4945

Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066

Calcium (Ca)
249.7590

Sulfur (S)
42.2674

Iron (Fe)
3.0744

Zinc (Zn)
4.2261

Boron (B)
3.0744

Manganese (Mn)
3.0744

Copper (Cu)
1.9211

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839

Silicon (Si)
3.8422

*Total PPM* *1323.6349*


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good!
> 
> full strength veg mix would be
> 
> ...


ok if your meter is 500 scale and your ppm 700... that's EC 1.4 which is good! OK cool I havent fugged it up yet but I'm at week one of flower and according to the megacrop website and your thoughts about feeding i'm at week 5-6 of flower as far as the strength of my nutient solution.

as for the 2/1/3

that's ratios describiing the npk amounts

100 N
50 P
150 K

that is 2/1/3 n/p/k .....100/50/150

This and how you posting this is whats confusing me I think isnt the npk ratio described as being 2% nitrogen by weight will be in that nutrient mix same for the others so if I had a ten pound bag of 2/1/3 then 2 pounds of it will be nitrogen same for the other elements. or do I have that wrong?

megacrop is a 10/6/14 so in that lingo that looks 500/300/700 so is that a 5/3/7.
chem-grow is a 4/20/39 is that the same as a 1/4/9.75


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> imho
> 
> there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!
> 
> ...



there never any reason to feed plants anything over EC 1.5 ever for any reason!!!

that means your large plants should be getting around 750ppm absolute max
If I go that low I will get deficiencies in flower or do I have deficiencies in flower because my plant haven't stored enough of the elements to make it through flower because I have my nutrient ratio's wrong in veg all the time then it goes to flower and it doesnt have enough of the right stuff stored to be able to perform in flower?: or something like that.

small clones I start around EC 0.8 and in a week im usually up to EC1.0

seedlings that are ready to be fed (read that again "ready to be fed") might start at EC 0.5 or 0.6

so converting that
EC 0.6......300ppm
EC 0.8......400 ppm
EC 1.4......700 ppm
Ok cool you converted it to the 500 scale for me thanks. What you said here is what I do but that ec of 1.4 is late veg for me then I want to do this
I know I know I know...lots of guys feed EC2.0 and 1800ppm or something much higher
Probably not that hot but lets say I want to go up to 1500 ppm's (500 scale again)

Im either not feeding it right in veg with the proper nutrient ratio God know that the H&G doesnt have shit for nitrogen in it and I haven't been supplementing a lot of extra nitrogen (trying to correct that problem) but I dont see a lot of nitrogen deficiencies but I do get mag and potassium deficiencies a lot. But we dont need to focus on the past we need to focus on the future and do it right.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> ok having said all that
> 
> now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp
> 
> ...


now we can look at your nutes and see if we can get a bloom nute formula from using the mega and mkp
what you said here is what I wanted to do.

without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement
I hear you but I thought I would be able to do something wit hit I want a cheaper nutrient to use and just one nutrient line maybe with just a couple of extra things to tweek it. So basically the megacrop has to much nitrogen in it for a flower nute so I add mpk but Ill get an iron deficeincy. I dont think I want an iron deficiency id rather have something easy like a mag deficiency. I do have shitty rusty looking water sometimes. idk


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

Ok that was brutal wasnt it.

So I have the megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and the chem-gro 4/20/39 and all of the extras for the chem-gro ca,mpk epsom salt.

so how do I make all that work. I cant flower with the megacrop? I use megacrop through week two of flower then switch to the chem-gro and cut the calcium nitrate in half or something like that from what they posted as a feed schedule. Still need to get some calcium in there.

I understand more nitrogen in veg less in flower etc etc etc. i get all that I just dont understand how the dry nutes scale up to be at 12-1500 ppm's in late flower or its just staring me in the face and I dont realize something. I was thinking run the megacrop hit it with some mpk in mid flower and im in the zone. I guess I cant do that or it isnt as easy as that. Im trying to keep things in balance with a proper nutrient ratio but I dont know what the actual pp'ms are for each element and can only go by total ppm.s for the entire reservoir. Basically im back to guessing again with these dry nutes, winging it in a different way like I was winging it before. But dont read into that too much not exactly guessing or winging it I want to be more exact and on point and not get by with close enough. And not spend so much money at a hydro store.

I think mega in veg then chem-gro in flower and just keep it simple like that.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

I flower with 1000 watt hps what are you guys flowering with? Is that why you guys like the low ec 1.2 is 600 ppm that isnt shit my grandma can drink that.

I veg under t-5's 1.2 is ok under those lights. Until I get the lights I want for this area of my grow having these for veg is keeping me back from scaling up the light intensity for the time right before I go into flower. Need new hoods and dimmable ballasts, work out these nutes and im good.

And or what size plants do you flower? I usually get 4-5 zips of nice nugs after its all done per plant. Less if I fuck something up, 2-4 zips depend on how big they are when I go into flower. Lets just say I average 4 zips of choice nugs per plant on average so we dont get confused about my ramblings. I usually veg for about 3-4 months. All this weight talk is dependent on how big and how it goes and means nothing with me learning about proper nutrient raio's or dry nutes or switching nutes, not trying to brag, I dont even think thats bragging to me that isnt a lot, but if you have small plants then you dont need to have high ppm's is what im saying


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

As far as these nutes go and these are just random numbers. If I add 1 gram per gallon of megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and I get 100 ppm from that lets say. That will be a 100 ppm of megacrop at a ratio of 9.7/5.5/14. Yes no. So if I add 100 grams per gallon of megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and I get 10000 ppm from that lets say. That will be 10000 ppm of megacrop at a ratio of 9.7/5.5/14.

thats how it works right or it doesnt scale like that?

SO in using the megacrop ppm calculator if I wanted to feed my plants this

55 gallons 800 grams.

*Element* *PPM calculation*
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704

Phosphorous (P)
92.2258

Potassium (K)
462.4945

Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066

Calcium (Ca)
249.7590

Sulfur (S)
42.2674

Iron (Fe)
3.0744

Zinc (Zn)
4.2261

Boron (B)
3.0744

Manganese (Mn)
3.0744

Copper (Cu)
1.9211

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839

Silicon (Si)
3.8422

*Total PPM* *1323.6349
*
Im ok to do that but you guys dont like your nutes that hot and with these nutrients megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 I am a little heavy on the nitrogen for a flower nute. I get that. So with what I post above here Ill have a nutient solution made by a company called megacrop at a ratio of 9.7/5.5/14 that is about 1323.6349 ppm's. And i'm ok to do that. and I might be low on iron if I add mpk am I correct or no. (fyi I dont think im going to go that hot but didnt want to go find a new example but you get the idea)

I think when I read this:

my bloom numbers look like this

2:1:3 RATIO NPK +/- depending on my mood and stage

80 to 120 ppm N
40 to 60 ppm P
150 to 180 ppm K
100 ppm Ca
50 pm Mg

veg

120 to 130 ppm N
35 ppm P +/-
130 to 150 ppm K
100 Ca
50 Mg

I usually sit between EC 1.2 to 1.4 max at full strength


It confused me and that I shouldnt go hotter its just that this guy doesnt like to go hotter. and then when I ran the ppm calculator and seen 384.2522 for nitrogen (pick any npk number it doesnt matter) that made my brain swell and got me thinking im screwing up these new nutes.


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

lol

ok gotta slow down im having trouble with a response

im happy to help and im not going anywhere...... I will try and answers as many of the questions as I recall

remember im a stoner lol

about the EC and your potential for deficiency

consider a few possibilities

1) its not uncommon for over fertilization to look and act like def... its called lock out

2) if your nutes are out of balance between elements ... you could experience a def in a single element but still be over feeding... if your mix is loaded with P and S that will drive the EC up and if its also low in N you could be nutrient def in N but also feeding too high an EC from the shit loads of whatever else is in excess


next
the nutes you have

calcium nitrate
chem grow
mega
epsom

and mkp if you want to play around a bit down the road.... are all you need and we can get your mix straight with that


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

chem gro 4-20 mix
full strenght bloom per gallon

2 grams mix
2 grams epsom
2 grams calnite

N 103
P 46
K 172
Ca 100
Mg 50


optional (not required): late bloom mix reducing N and increasing P

1.5 grams mix
1.5 grams Epsom
0.5 grams mkp
1.6 grams calnite

N 81
P 65
K 166
Ca 80
Mg 40


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

Ok if Itake 1 gram of megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and I add 1 gram of mpk 0/52/34 will I get a nutrient of 9.7/57.5/48. And a different one here if I take 1 gram of megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and add 1/2 grams of mpk will i get a nutrient of 9.7/31.5/31

Is that correct?? y/n

===================================================
on a separate note:
I suppose like I said I should just the mega in veg through week two of flower and then switch to chem-gro and little calcium nitrate and a little mpk as needed. the chem-gro doesnt have calcium in it so I have to add that I cant just use chem-gro alone as a bloom nute?? is that correct?? And then if I add the calcium nitrate I have to add some mpk to keep my ratio that is ever changing?? is that correct?


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

veg using mega crop

per gallon full strength

5 grams mega crop
1 gram Epsom

nothing more...that's it

but the iron levels are low in this nute and you might experience iron def... I recommend an iron supplements to boost iron or using something different

imo the mega crop is a bad choice fro bloom and shouldn't be used as a bloom mix, I don't see a way to make it work its to much trouble and not worth it

veg only...get some iron, tell me what the % is and I can recommend how much to add


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

youll no


Bernie420 said:


> Ok if Itake 1 gram of megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and I add 1 gram of mpk 0/52/34 will I get a nutrient of 9.7/57.5/48. And a different one here if I take 1 gram of megacrop 9.7/5.5/14 and add 1/2 grams of mpk will i get a nutrient of 9.7/31.5/31
> 
> Is that correct?? y/n
> 
> ...


im not sure what your trying to do here

whatever it is don't lol

that's not how it works sorry


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

right on I am on the megacrop now just started that for flower since ----1. I was thinking of just using that company from now on and 2. that guy posted he got shit off of it so I wanted to give it a try to compare what I have done in the past with the megacrop . To get to the bottom of it / the results does it work is it good, should I use it in flower. I cant just go by what he said and not use it so I need to see what i can do with it but I dont have to.


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

mix it the way I suggested

if you want a stronger EC mix it the same way but with less water
if you want a weaker EC mix it the same way with more water


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> youll no
> 
> im not sure what your trying to do here
> 
> ...


 trying to see if it scales the same. If I take a 2/4/9 and add a 1/5/7 I get a 3/9/16 don't I???


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> right on I am on the megacrop now just started that for flower since ----1. I was thinking of just using that company from now on and 2. that guy posted he got shit off of it so I wanted to give it a try to compare what I have done in the past with the megacrop . To get to the bottom of it / the results does it work is it good, should I use it in flower. I cant just go by what he said and not use it so I need to see what i can do with it but I dont have to.


good luck
I wish you the best and im sending positive vibes


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> trying to see if it scales the same. If I take a 2/4/9 and add a 1/5/7 I get a 3/9/16 don't I???


I don't know what your talking about


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> mix it the way I suggested
> 
> if you want a stronger EC mix it the same way but with less water
> if you want a weaker EC mix it the same way with more water



Her we go: why cant I mix more nutrients in the same amount of water. I have an 18 gallon rez then it goes up to 25 gallon then the flower is the 40-50 gallon res / lets just say 50 on that last one. 

Wouldnt adding more nutrients be the same as adding less water??


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> I don't know what your talking about


Those are just fake nutrient numbers dont I add two different bottled nute i'll get a nutrient amount of the two added. Thats how I learned it I can find a video of a grow boss video that says it but I didnt learn it there I just know that he said the same thing and I can find the video.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Her we go: why cant I mix more nutrients in the same amount of water. I have an 18 gallon rez then it goes up to 25 gallon then the flower is the 40-50 gallon res / lets just say 50 on that last one.
> 
> Wouldnt adding more nutrients be the same as adding less water??


and vice versa


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> and vice versa


yes that's fine

my way is just less complicated and the formula has nice even numbers that are easy to recall and don't require much math

but if you want to do it the other way its basically the same thing


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

so this is ok:
SO in using the megacrop ppm calculator if I wanted to feed my plants this

55 gallons 800 grams.

*Element* *PPM calculation*
Total Nitrogen (N)
384.2522

Nitrate Nitrogen (NO3-)
368.8638

Ammonical Nitrogen (NH4+)
15.3704

Phosphorous (P)
92.2258

Potassium (K)
462.4945

Magnesium (Mg)
73.0066

Calcium (Ca)
249.7590

Sulfur (S)
42.2674

Iron (Fe)
3.0744

Zinc (Zn)
4.2261

Boron (B)
3.0744

Manganese (Mn)
3.0744

Copper (Cu)
1.9211

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.3839

Silicon (Si)
3.8422

*Total PPM* *1323.6349
*
we agree on that I can use the same amount of water and just add more or less nutes and go by my ppm meter to have an idea of what I am feeding it/how strong.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

Lets try this what do I get if i add one gram of calcium nitrate and one gram of chem-gro thats a 19.5/20/39 isnt it. Thats my ratio right?


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

im not sure what you expect me to say

I gave you my opinion on the feed strengths now it up to you to do what you want with that info

if you want to feed your plants triple what I recommend... go for it!


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> im4satori you posted this
> 
> without spending oodles of time on it I can tell you already based on what you've provided that id not try and make a "bloom" nute formula from this particular brand
> it can be done but its going to require an iron supplement
> ...


if you get some iron it could maybe be used but why not just use the chem gro since it better for bloom?

trying to force the mega grow into a bloom ratio will yield an inferior mix, it might work but it wont be ideal


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

*right on thanks for the help
*
@ im4satori = So do you have a beef with me using megacrop through week 1-2 of flower and then switching to chem-gro.

And is your concern with the megacrop is that because of the low iron or is it the nitrogen.

is there a way to remove the calcium and magnesium from the megacrop (on paper) and tell me what that npk numbers would be.

Idk its all comes down to mixing things up and getting it close and then reading the plant every plant is different even the same strain its different between each plant and how it should be fed, technically. 

Im going from H&G to dry. I know with the H&G what I do I'll be ok, but with the dry I have a feeling i'm ok but I dont want to screw up.


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## Rahz (Apr 15, 2018)

My understanding so far is that NH4+ lowers PH and competes with other cations. When making a custom nutrient mix is there any good reason to add NH4+ as opposed to using only nitrates?


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

Rahz said:


> My understanding so far is that NH4+ lowers PH and competes with other cations. When making a custom nutrient mix is there any good reason to add NH4+ as opposed to using only nitrates?



Faster absorption


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> *right on thanks for the help
> *
> @ im4satori = So do you have a beef with me using megacrop through week 1-2 of flower and then switching to chem-gro.
> 
> ...


if you want to run the veg the first two weeks I don't see it being a deal breaker.... but the base bloom mix I offered isn't "low" in N and youd likely be fine switching to the bloom mix at the start

too much N in bloom can delay the onset of bud formation

no way to remove anything in that mix...its pre-set and isn't really worth the trouble of trying to alter it

when you get you nutes right youll have small differences between strains but its should be marginal in most cases
occasionally a strain might be N sensitive and sometimes a strain can be a magnesium hog depending but its not enough to fuck shit up


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## Rahz (Apr 15, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Faster absorption


NH4+ is absorbed faster than NO3-? I thought NO3- was absorbed directly and NH4+ gets converted first.


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

Rahz said:


> My understanding so far is that NH4+ lowers PH and competes with other cations. When making a custom nutrient mix is there any good reason to add NH4+ as opposed to using only nitrates?


ive not recently read this info so don't quote me or whatever

from recall
NH4 has its uses in soil and does have some effects on NO3 uptake but I don't recall enough details at the moment to speak on it intelligently

but in hydro youd prefer to avoid ammonium nitrate all together

having said that I wouldnt absolutely avoid a product if it had a very very small amount


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

im4satori said:


> if you want to run the veg the first two weeks I don't see it being a deal breaker.... but the base bloom mix I offered isn't "low" in N and youd likely be fine switching to the bloom mix at the start
> 
> too much N in bloom can delay the onset of bud formation
> 
> ...



if you want to run the veg the first two weeks I don't see it being a deal breaker.... but the base bloom mix I offered isn't "low" in N and youd likely be fine switching to the bloom mix at the start

right on would pobably be best to get hem started on a different nute early

too much N in bloom can delay the onset of bud formation

Yeah I know and to much nitrogen delays rooting in clones

no way to remove anything in that mix...its pre-set and isn't really worth the trouble of trying to alter it

I was asking if it was possible on paper, like a math thing.

when you get you nutes right youll have small differences between strains but its should be marginal in most cases
occasionally a strain might be N sensitive and sometimes a strain can be a magnesium hog depending but its not enough to fuck shit up

Its all about the roots and the size of the plant to me. Feed it then read it! Going from wet to dry I dont know the nuances like going from hydro to soil. Theres a learning curve there somewhere.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 15, 2018)

Rahz said:


> NH4+ is absorbed faster than NO3-? I thought NO3- was absorbed directly and NH4+ gets converted first.


I dont have a clue dude I was just guessing. I searched nh4+ and seen Ammonium and then took a guess. I thought Ammonium nitrate was absorbed faster than regular nitrogen. which makes it hotter, which means you want to use less of it.


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## southernguy99 (Apr 15, 2018)

Rahz said:


> My understanding so far is that NH4+ lowers PH and competes with other cations. When making a custom nutrient mix is there any good reason to add NH4+ as opposed to using only nitrates?


a bag of calcium nitrate is Ca(NO3)2. dissolved its Ca -calcium and no3 nitrate it should have an other percentage on the bag as well like 1% or something of ammonium thats NH4+, ammonium should never be more then 10% of your total nitrate unless your using co2 then you can push it to 20% NH4+ get absorbed the fastest, but is also toxic if you use to much. its great or N Deficiency for a quick hit of N


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## im4satori (Apr 15, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> a bag of calcium nitrate is Ca(NO3)2. dissolved its Ca -calcium and no3 nitrate it should have an other percentage on the bag as well like 1% or something of ammonium thats NH4+, ammonium should never be more then 10% of your total nitrate unless your using co2 then you can push it to 20% NH4+ get absorbed the fastest, but is also toxic if you use to much. its great or N Deficiency for a quick hit of N


sounds about right

mine (yara) has 14.5 NO3 and 1.1% ammonium nitrate NH4

personally Id try and use NH4 as little as possible


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## Rahz (Apr 16, 2018)

What about in a 50/50 coir/peat mix? Would there be an advantage in using more NH4? I'm wanting to try my hand at mixing my own, both hydro and soilless. Are there any tutorals or recipes on the net that are good or standard?


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## im4satori (Apr 16, 2018)

Rahz said:


> What about in a 50/50 coir/peat mix? Would there be an advantage in using more NH4? I'm wanting to try my hand at mixing my own, both hydro and soilless. Are there any tutorals or recipes on the net that are good or standard?


my guess says yes, but ive not experimented with it

my memory tells me that N03 is a better choice, so if you do go that way id keep the NH4 on the lower end, maybe 5%, id not max it out personally

in my organic soil ive used high N guano and it does create some very green lush large almost glowing neon green colors...


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## Bernie420 (Apr 17, 2018)

Well we decided to run the megacrop in veg and the chem-gro in flower. 
Going to switch to the chem-gro next water change.
Is there going to be a problem doing that , switching nutes?

Whats the deal with the low ppm's with the megacrop in flower. I've never used dry nutes before so I dont really know. Do you just not need to feed hotter? When I run H&G I stopped my ppm;s at about 1100 (2.2ec) and according to their feed chart I was way under and I always thought I was underfeeding them.


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## rkymtnman (Apr 18, 2018)

For the OP, I read you were going to use humic acids. If your nutes have calcium nitrate in them, I wouldn't. They are not compatible in solution.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 18, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> For the OP, I read you were going to use humic acids. If your nutes have calcium nitrate in them, I wouldn't. They are not compatible in solution.


Why wouldnt they be compatible? Raw brand humic 0/0/4 I thought that calcium and phosphorous didnt play well. And that is if you didnt mix it right and get the lock up. The cloud.

I only use it very sparingly at about 1ml per ten gallons its just extra trace minerals. Its so low of an amount its like I didnt add it at all. But a little bit is in there if the plant wants it.


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## rkymtnman (Apr 18, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Why wouldnt they be compatible? Raw brand humic 0/0/4 I thought that calcium and phosphorous didnt play well. And that is if you didnt mix it right and get the lock up. The cloud.
> 
> I only use it very sparingly at about 1ml per ten gallons its just extra trace minerals. Its so low of an amount its like I didnt add it at all. But a little bit is in there if the plant wants it.


I was looking at a kelp/humic soluble mix and the instructions said that this product and cal nit were incompatible. i sent the company an email and the guy gave a long response that said it will precipitate out of solution. sodium nitrate was fine but not cal nit. i can paste his response if you'd like to see what he wrote.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 18, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> I was looking at a kelp/humic soluble mix and the instructions said that this product and cal nit were incompatible. i sent the company an email and the guy gave a long response that said it will precipitate out of solution. sodium nitrate was fine but not cal nit. i can paste his response if you'd like to see what he wrote.


Sure why not. At least tell me what the kelp/humic product is. Dont post any email info of yourself though. In my non-scientific mind the sodium nitrate sounds like a product I wouldnt want to use.


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## rkymtnman (Apr 18, 2018)

Thanks for your very thoughtful (and valuable) question…

Humates (soluble humic acids) have a very strong affinity for calcium, and humates are indeed contained within the Nourish product!

Hence, humates “grab” calcium and form insoluble calcium-humate complexes!

Next, the insoluble calcium-humate complexes will fall out of your hydroponic solution (by the way, this will not take long at all, will be very rapid) and create a mess.

The “mess” may look like a variety of things such as tar, a thin dark film, floating globules, etc.; all of these outcomes are possible individually, or together, and the severity of the “mess” will all be defined by variables such as how much humate and/or calcium was present, what chemical forms or concentrations were the humate and/or calcium in, and so on (many variables; but all with outcomes that won’t likely make you a happy camper)…

When speaking to your question as to whether or not another product would be compatible, I would first need to know more specifically what “objectives” or “characteristics” you were hoping the Nourish could provide; then, maybe, I can possibly suggest something else that may help you achieve your goals.

Please keep in mind that there is a possibility that your goals simply may not be compatible with your calcium nitrate, regardless of how we try to spin things…

Finally, please make note that the “insoluble calcium-humate complex” that is formed when you mix these two wonderful ingredients together, while this complex unfortunately does not want to behave in liquid solutions, this complex is in fact a chelated (more readily available) form of calcium that is simultaneously far more stable (less likely to leach) due to its humic complexing. Therefore, if you can marry these 2 ingredients in a soil-based delivery system, then you’ll enjoy the benefits of the calcium-humate marriage; higher availability & more stability of both the calcium & the nitrate in the calcium nitrate you inquired about


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## rkymtnman (Apr 18, 2018)

And yeah, no way I'd use sodium nitrate instead either.


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## rkymtnman (Apr 18, 2018)

https://www.organicapproach.com/products/nourish/label/nourish.pdf


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## Bernie420 (Apr 18, 2018)

Closest thing I get is a thin dark film but I got a thin dark (slime) film on my rez barrel way before I started to use humic acid.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 18, 2018)

http://npk-industries.com/humic_acid.html

this is what I use. Maybe not all humic acid is created equal. Maybe yours doesnt play with calcium like you say. Idk its beyond my pay grade.


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## rkymtnman (Apr 18, 2018)

I don't know either. A similar product from BioAg with humic and micros says the same thing about cal nit. 

I'm going for fulvics and kelp instead. 

Just an FYI for anybody else following along.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 18, 2018)

I may not be doing it right all of the time but I can bring a plant back from near death so that has to count for something? Pics taken 3/31, 4/10, 4/18. Caused by laziness stupidity and a bad ph probe. Humic acid added every time. Right now I think i'm to hot with the ppm's so I'm going to dilute it down a tad and then foliar feed them some extreme serrene. To try to get a stretch going.


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## Bernie420 (Apr 18, 2018)

rkymtnman said:


> I don't know either. A similar product from BioAg with humic and micros says the same thing about cal nit.
> 
> I'm going for fulvics and kelp instead.
> 
> Just an FYI for anybody else following along.


Yeah i hear that fulvic acid would be the better choice than just the humic. I also use it with the idea that it helps stabilize my water from ph swings. Like I said I hardly use very much.

I foliar feed the fulvic though you dont foliar feed regular humic acid.


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## im4satori (Apr 18, 2018)

lmao


----------



## Bernie420 (Apr 18, 2018)

See...he gets it.


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## dstroy (Apr 25, 2018)

Johnny Lawrence said:


> I knew all that going into it, but was convinced by many growers here and elsewhere claiming good results. The high ratio of nitrogen did cause me a bit of concern.


That sucks dude, it seems hit or miss. Works great for some and others have a bunch of problems.

It works great for my purposes.

I know that at 1.6EC there’s about 0.3-0.5EC of additives. So really only an EC of 1.0. I have to feed more with MC. Sometimes I go up to 1.8EC.

I don’t run a sterile res either and really have to stay on top of cleaning, biofilm forms quickly even at sub 70f temps.

And it smells.

I haven’t really been growing long enough to know whether or not if it’s really “good”. I just know that it’s cheap and simple to use, and gets the job done, maybe not the best but I get some frosty nugs.


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## Bernie420 (May 14, 2018)

So I ran the megacrop two weeks and got an iron deficiency at about day 9 or 10 then switched to the chemgro and the iron deficiency went away in a couple of days ran that out two weeks. Did this to see what would happen.

So I have a question in the middle of week 4 now the flowers look a little small imo. The plants look ok other than that and maybe the edges of the leaves look jagged and standing up like a taco a little bit. Is that a concern? 

? Using the chemgro do I use the feedchart like it is posted or do I have to adjust it somehow. Seems like a lot of nitrogen and I think that is what is messing with my flowers. 

Do I just use the chemgro by itself during mid to late flowering meaning dont add any cal/nit, epsom salt or mpk? 

Last water change I backed off on the cal/nit some added the epsom salt and the mpk along with the chemgro. In my opiniom its looking like to much nitrogen and I guess im going to plan on backing that off even earlier next time.

So where am I screwing up. Ran this strain out before never used powdered nutes till this run. Buds are looking a tad bit small for what I got before using H&G. Whats best practices with the chemgro product. Doesn't the cal/nit add a shit ton of nitrogen for flower???

Per 100 gallons

Chem-Gro 4-20-39 v100 100 200 200 f 200 200 300 300 400 400 400 400
Calcium Nitrate v 100 100 200 200 f 200 200 300 300 400 400 400 400
Magnesium Sulfate v60 60 120 120 f 180 180 200 300 400 400 300 300
Mono-Potassium Phosphate v 0 0 0 0 f 0 0 100 100 0 0 0 0


EC - ppm 400-500 650 650 1100 1200 1300 1500 1500 1800 1800 1700 1700
pH 6.4 6.4 6.3 6.2 6.2 6.2 6.1 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0


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## im4satori (May 14, 2018)

chemgro 4-20-39 = mix
calcium nitrate = calnite
magnesium sulfate = Epsom
mono potassium phosphate = mkp

*veg grams per gallon*
2.5 calnite
2 Epsom
1.5 mix

yields
N 118
P 35
K 128
Mg 52
Ca 125 (high depending on source water)

*bloom grams per gallon (good for all of bloom)*
2 grams calnite
2 grams Epsom
2 grams mix

yields
N 103
P46
K171 (high only for coco)
mg 52
Ca 100

*late bloom grams per gallon* *(optional high P and lower N but not required)*
1.6 grams calnite
1.5 grams Epsom
1.5 grams mix
0.5 grams mkp

yields
N 81
P 65
K 166
Mg 39
Ca 80


always mix it ther same way/ratios, dilute to desired/target EC/PPM
for a higher EC/ppm add slightly less water
for a lower EC/ppm add/dilute slightly more water


take a minute and watch the yield numbers

notice the N for example in veg is higher and then drops for bloom and drops again in late bloom

meanwhile the P does the opposite as it increases while the N drops

these are good mix ratios youll be very happy with


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## churchhaze (May 14, 2018)

Too much NH4+ is what people generally associate with N toxicity. It's what causes that distinct dark glossy green color. Nitrate will cause a light mat green finish.

Yara calcium nitrate contains a 5:1 ratio of calcium nitrate to ammonium nitrate, which is "just enough" ammonium.

I disagree with using such low levels of nitrate in flowering. "why would you use such a high level of nitrates in flowering?". Easy... Faster growth, higher yields, and better overall health.

I agree that murate of potash (KCl) is something you don't need in your salt collection. You should have potassium nitrate instead.


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## churchhaze (May 14, 2018)

I like the calcium nitrate + "rest of the mix" formulas because it encourages people to get their own supply of calcium nitrate, MKP, magnesium sulfate, etc which are the first natural steps toward DIY nutes. Over time people could add potassium nitrate, manganese sulfate, and iron DTPA, sodium borate, and sodium molybdenum to their collection, which would allow them to dial in any way they want.

The problem is that certain people seem to be challenged with chemistry, uninterested, or insist on explaining how it's too complicated (despite not having experience or knowing what they're talking about), and these people are better off just getting an A+B mix of liquid nutes where each bottle is added in equal amounts..


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## Bernie420 (May 14, 2018)

churchhaze said:


> Too much NH4+ is what people generally associate with N toxicity. It's what causes that distinct dark glossy green color. Nitrate will cause a light mat green finish.
> 
> Yara calcium nitrate contains a 5:1 ratio of calcium nitrate to ammonium nitrate, which is "just enough" ammonium.
> 
> ...


And doesnt a nitrogen toxicity in veg delay flowering in flower. Wouldnt excess nitrogen in flower mess with my buds.

I learned to try to not use nitrogen in flower. I always cut out as much as I can right after week two of flower, doesnt the plant accumulate all or most of the nitrogen it needs in veg.
I have grown this strain out for a couple of years the buds do look small compared to the past grows at this stage. Definitely smaller, they look like the start of week three in the past and I am in the middle of week four.

They are about 850 - 950 ppms on he 500 scale, I dont think im under feeding them. I bought new bulbs for this grow, environment is on point.

I do have a new deficiency thats new to me, there is bronzing on the leaves in the middle of the plant, not going to worry about it to much as the rest of the plant looks ok except for the serrated leaf edges turning up.


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## Bernie420 (May 14, 2018)

im4satori said:


> chemgro 4-20-39 = mix
> calcium nitrate = calnite
> magnesium sulfate = Epsom
> mono potassium phosphate = mkp
> ...


Ok thanks for the reply I.ll do your formula nest water change, but at 2 grams of mix per gallon puts me at a very low ppm, probably only about 700 ppm. The last water change I used about 3.25 grams of mix per gallon, which with everything else {just those items you listed or that is in the feeding chart} put me about a 1.9-2.0 ec. thats what im shooting for. So am I over feeding them?


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## churchhaze (May 14, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> And doesnt a nitrogen toxicity in veg delay flowering in flower


Toxicity of anything will cause problems.



Bernie420 said:


> Wouldnt excess nitrogen in flower mess with my buds.


When did anyone say you should be using excess nitrogen? That's such an annoying way to word your question...



Bernie420 said:


> I learned to try to not use nitrogen in flower.


This is misguided. Your plant needs nitrogen more than any other element.



Bernie420 said:


> doesnt the plant accumulate all or most of the nitrogen it needs in veg.


NO! HELL NO!


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## im4satori (May 14, 2018)

in my opinion

theres never any reason to feed over EC1.5 regardless of medium or grow style ... provided your nutes are balanced
yes theres lots of guys who push the limits but your asking for trouble unless you've got a long history with a single strain and understand its max limits

most strains wont handle the high EC feeds as well but some will tolerate it

the numbers I gave you should set you around EC 1.5 +/-
maybe slightly lower

but you should be pretty close to spot on with the amounts I provided... what your using now is tooo much


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## Bernie420 (May 14, 2018)

churchhaze said:


> Toxicity of anything will cause problems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did anyone say you should be using excess nitrogen? Such an annoying way to word your question...
I didnt say that anybody told me to.

On the other quote I guess Harley Smith is wrong.


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## Bernie420 (May 14, 2018)

im4satori said:


> in my opinion
> 
> theres never any reason to feed over EC1.5 regardless of medium or grow style ... provided your nutes are balanced
> yes theres lots of guys who push the limits but your asking for trouble unless you've got a long history with a single strain and understand its max limits
> ...



Right on an ec of 1.5 is only 750 ppm. Doesnt seem like very much my seedling get 350 ppm 0.7 ec.

thanks for the reply ill mix up your fomula to see what it actually comes to but it just sonds like its going to be a very low ppm for what I am used to.


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## Bernie420 (May 14, 2018)

strain is gg#4 on this flower run


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## im4satori (May 14, 2018)

try the mix as I suggested regardless of the ppm/EC

are you certain your ppm meter is on the 5 scale and not the 7??

I run my set up at EC1.3 but im in RW dtw

if your nutes are balanced youll find a lower EC works better and has less likely issues

theyre are some plants (very few imho) that do just fine at EC as high as your feeding but just because they'll tolerate it doesn't mean they prefer it

whats your medium and grow style again?


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## Keesje (May 15, 2018)

ppm scale sucks.
Why do not all manufacturers of EC-devices use EC?


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## southernguy99 (May 15, 2018)

You guys are putting way to much stock in meter reading both ppm and ec. All that really is telling you is how much mineral ions that are dissolved in the water, as a total , it doesn't tell you if its the right mineral ions for the plants needs, just the total, so if your a beginner using bottle nutes and you need a ballpark reference on how much to feed then use EC or PPM other then that any experienced grower should not need to rely on any meter readings to grow.

Another thing EC readings are going to be different for everyone no matter what, even if 2 different people are growing the same strain.That water to mineral ratio is going to be different just because of all the different factors in involved in that ratio (water to minerals ) size of plants, size or roots and condition, temperature, lighting, humidity etc etc . those are a few that will factor into the water to mineral ratio that your plant needs or can handle (EC). this all factors into the a bigger picture of the plants nutrient uptake viability and what that actually is. So as far as i'm concerned its a tool for the beginner grower, because any Experienced grower should all ready have an understand on how much to feed, but more so then that you should be able to read the plant as it will tell you precisely if your to weak or to strong and it will also tell you what elements are to strong to to weak., far better then any meter out there.


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## im4satori (May 15, 2018)

southernguy99 said:


> You guys are putting way to much stock in meter reading both ppm and ec. All that really is telling you is how much mineral ions that are dissolved in the water, as a total , it doesn't tell you if its the right mineral ions for the plants needs, just the total, so if your a beginner using bottle nutes and you need a ballpark reference on how much to feed then use EC or PPM other then that any experienced grower should not need to rely on any meter readings to grow.
> 
> Another thing EC readings are going to be different for everyone no matter what, even if 2 different people are growing the same strain.That water to mineral ratio is going to be different just because of all the different factors in involved in that ratio (water to minerals ) size of plants, size or roots and condition, temperature, lighting, humidity etc etc . those are a few that will factor into the water to mineral ratio that your plant needs or can handle (EC). this all factors into the a bigger picture of the plants nutrient uptake viability and what that actually is. So as far as i'm concerned its a tool for the beginner grower, because any Experienced grower should all ready have an understand on how much to feed, but more so then that you should be able to read the plant as it will tell you precisely if your to weak or to strong and it will also tell you what elements are to strong to to weak., far better then any meter out there.


I cant say I agree except in the case of soil or those that have some advanced understanding on how to mix fertilizers

ppm meters do suck... but they get the job done if that's what you have..

but an EC meter should be universal and the only differences would be related to source water

for hydro...EC meter is a very useful tool to track the changes in your waste samples (open system, dtw) or reservoir (closed system, recirculating)changes over time... those observed changes are how a good gardener knows to adjust there regimen accordingly

since a person might have advanced knowledge on fertilizer mixing ratios its easy for he/she to forgo the tool after dialing things in... and maybe its only used on rare occasions if something diagnostically comes up

but until you got things dialed in perfectly its a great way to get there and even a change in what strain you grow could require a n adjustment... or if your environment changes thru season that could also make adjustments necessary, all of which can be in part determined thru an EC/PH daily log


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## churchhaze (May 15, 2018)

I honestly find an EC meter to be useless other than roughly analyzing my tap water.

I know what I put in my reservoir because I measure it with a scale when making the stock solutions, so what's the point of measuring it again? I know how much water I put in. It's not exactly a mystery what's in there.

pH meter on the other hand... I'd be lost without that. I have to add a ton of nitric acid with my tap water. It stays over 7.0pH until the last few mL, where it can easily tank below 3.


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## southernguy99 (May 15, 2018)

And thats the difference in grow styles, my opinion is a meter should never have to tell a good grow what to do,that should be the plant, the meter should only be there to verify, I understand for newer grower the EC tool is a useful tool, but if one relies solely on a meter and sets the solution to the same every time and relies on that , and never learns how to read the plant your never going to know if the solution is optimal or not.

if your running a different system all the time yes an EC meter will help you quickly verify the solution, if your running the same system all the time it should be easy x amount of water x amount nutes = x amount of EC unless your using different nutes all the time.

if i'm running a new strain , same system same nutes, I cut my nutes down a little weak, I adjust until my plant tells me its as happy as can be and then i verify what the EC is for that strain in case I want a quick reference. there is no preset EC for the strain in my system, no one can tell me what it should be other then ballpark and then they could still be way off, So for me the only accurate way to set the nutes is by what the plant is telling you. it doesn't lie. but I learned to grow before all these meters were every wheres and before everyone became a meter reader grower.

besides one could screw up mixing there nutes and add to much of one and not enough of something else , even though the EC reads right where it should be, it doesn't tell your nutes are not right. but if you understand the plant it will. not only that but someone who mixes there own nutes precisely to what the plants needs and keeps it balanced, elements to elements and to the plants needs, and say runs an EC of 1.2 is going to mean something totally different to the plant then someone who runs an 1.2 EC from bottled nutes .

I'm not saying an EC meter doesn't have it place because it does, but I'm saying is, is if someone want to become the best grow they can learn and understand what your plant is saying and doing,it will tell you far more and be more reliable them any meter.


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## southernguy99 (May 15, 2018)

Yes Church an accurate PH meter is a must for any hydro grow.


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## im4satori (May 15, 2018)

the average home hobbiest isn't going to have advanced knowledge on precisely mixing his or her nutes

suggesting to a new growers an EC pen isn't needed and highly useful, to each there own I guess......... I understand you and I may not need to use the EC pen except on occasion...but the thread starter asked a question that clearly indicates he doesn't have that knowledge...

good growers may not need tools of this or that because they been doing the same shit forever... ok! but that shouldn't suggest to most home hobbiest that there not a "good grower" if they find an EC pen useful

EC pen can tell you when its time to flush or if a flush is required, if your under feeding or over feeding, provide hints on water frequency and durations

I just use the ph dropper kit to check my ph... but I run drain to waste so I rarely check it anyway
but im not going to tell peeps they don't need a ph meter because I don't use one

I dont use one because I know exactly what I need to add to my stock solutions to offset my source water using either, sulfuric acid, phosphoric acid, or pek acid and I been doing it long enough to I could about mix it from memory

but I guess its all just semantics... I respect your opinion and appreciate the conversation

like you said...difference in grow styles

I don't have reservoirs so I don't have the need to track my ph..its always the same and never changes

of course that's provided I mix it proper lol
an EC meter isn't going to tell me "hay dumb ass you measured your shit wrong" nope lol


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## Larry3215 (May 16, 2018)

Im a newbie, so Im still trying to learn all I can. I found this chart a while back on another forum. It tells how to interpret EC/PH readings and water level changes and how they relate to "proper/improper" feeding levels.

Im curious to know what you folks, with more experience than I have, think of this chart. I have been using it for a couple of weeks now and so far it is telling me - mostly - to lower my EC levels.

I am using Mega Crop. I was feeding as hi as 6 or 7 gms/gal which (with all the other things added) gave me a final EC of around 2.0-2.2mS depending on the PH level. Im now down to around 1600 uS and it still says I need to lower EC. The plants looked pretty good to me at 2.0mS. They were maybe a little dark green, but with no burning. Im also running added CalMag and HydroGuard. My tap water is well water and it varies from around 175uS to close to 300 uS depending on how much it has rained recently.

Anyway, Im mostly wanting some feed back on the charts accuracy and usefulness for a newbie. I have not been able to find the original thread where this was posted.

(note: the green arrows are mine)





.


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## im4satori (May 17, 2018)

that's all a bit complicated for something that's simple and short and although I see bits I agree with I also don't understand the point to some of it

to simplify

EC goes up and or PH goes down, lower EC
EC goes down and PH goes up, consider raising EC


I prefer to see a slight increase in PH and the EC stay flat or slightly drop

with a little time and a log and will start to see your system and the way I trends, how your specific set up trends will partly be determined by plant count vs reservoir size

in my mind/goal/opinion/perfect world
hypothetically
the ideal reservoir size and the proper nutrient levels your ph would start at 5.4 on sunday and slowly drift upward to 6.4 thru the week as the EC level stayed the same or drop slightly

no top offs, no ph adjustemnts ... then youd dump and begin again!

but the world is far from perfect and these goals not always practical for every set up... if you have a small reservoir with large plant counts the ph is going to drift more rapidly...so youll want to log your EC/ph so you can see the trends and adjust

typically as a rule; (again environmental factors and reservoir size set aside)
if your ph swings upward faster than normal..thats a sign to increase the feed
if you ph doesn't rise your likely over feeding
... if the drift is slow and steady upward your in the sweet spot

again youll need to account for your reservoir size and get familiar with how things trend to identify if the quick swing is from an undersized reservoir or not

like wise an over sized reservoir will also show changes slower

so you gotta get familiar with your system...some of these will be dependent on your set up

EC again, I like ot see a slow downward drift in EC

if your over feeding the EC will accumulate in the medium, if the reservoir EC is climbing theres a good chance you need to flush
if your pushing nutes at high levels and you want to do that that's your choice!! but if you don't flush weekly your going to eventually end up with some messed up plants

im in drain to wate so I don't have a reservoir to track the changes...my feed is always the same and always new

so I take samples from the solution directly from the rockwool cube and test it

if the sample/waste EC is higher than the feed... I either, need to water longer durations or lower my EC

if the ph of the feed solution is 5.5 and the waste samples are 6.5 or higher I might consider adjusting water frequency or increase EC

just to add another example
I run drip lines to feed, if I get both an extreme rise in ph and and rise in EC I might need to adjust the watering schedule.. instead of watering 1minutes every 3 hours maybe I need to water 3 miuntes every 3 hours.... not getting enough volume thru the medium could cause this on top of also over feeding would only amplify


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## im4satori (May 17, 2018)

while watching what your plants tell you is smart

id prefer to not have to burn the tips of the leaves before I realize im over feeding
or see deficiency and slowed growth to realize im under feeding

while those visible skills are important to have or recognize, I would consider it re-active more than pro-active

so no
a meter isn't going to jump out and yell "ah you mixed your nutes wrong you dumb fucker", but it will provide indications that will help you stay ahead of potential issues at least until your dialed in


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## Larry3215 (May 17, 2018)

im4satori said:


> that's all a bit complicated for something that's simple and short and although I see bits I agree with I also don't understand the point to some of it
> 
> to simplify
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed reply! That helps a lot.

So far, my PH is constantly rising, but its slow. Typically about .3 to .5 over about a week. The EC had been going up much faster - maybe 500uS to 600 uS over the same time. Im now down to around 1600uS (from 2.1-2.3mS) and the rate of increase is much slower, but still rising. Im going to continue lowering the EC as I top off the rez.


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## im4satori (May 17, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply! That helps a lot.
> 
> So far, my PH is constantly rising, but its slow. Typically about .3 to .5 over about a week. The EC had been going up much faster - maybe 500uS to 600 uS over the same time. Im now down to around 1600uS (from 2.1-2.3mS) and the rate of increase is much slower, but still rising. Im going to continue lowering the EC as I top off the rez.


your doing it backward

and your still way to high

give them a flush (not sure what your medium is)

drop down to EC 1.3.... then work your way up until the EC barely falls and the ph rises slow

going backward/down complicates or skews things because youll also be seeing the results of over fertilizing and itll be hard to hear what the plants are saying to you

underfeeding is e3asy and fast to fix... over feeding can take time to correct


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## Larry3215 (May 17, 2018)

That makes sense. Thanks for the tip! 

Rez change time I guess.....


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## Larry3215 (May 22, 2018)

im4satori said:


> your doing it backward
> 
> and your still way to high
> 
> ...


I did a rez change 5 days ago. My tap water started out at 208uS. I added Mega Crop until the EC was reading 1379uS, so about 1170uS of Mega Crop. Then I added some Cal Mag which brought the combined EC up to 1578uS.

The EC continued to go up along with the PH, but slower. So I drained out some water and topped it off with PH'ed tap water. The rez has been holding right at 1350uS for the last three days and the PH is barely climbing over the same time period.

So, in my system with this strain, your recommendation of 1.3mS (about 900uS of that is Mega Crop, 208 water, 200 CalMag) looks pretty darn good 

Thanks!!

Oh - the color on new growth looks really good to me. Not nearly as dark as it had been.


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## im4satori (May 22, 2018)

Larry3215 said:


> I did a rez change 5 days ago. My tap water started out at 208uS. I added Mega Crop until the EC was reading 1379uS, so about 1170uS of Mega Crop. Then I added some Cal Mag which brought the combined EC up to 1578uS.
> 
> The EC continued to go up along with the PH, but slower. So I drained out some water and topped it off with PH'ed tap water. The rez has been holding right at 1350uS for the last three days and the PH is barely climbing over the same time period.
> 
> ...


sounds like your getting it dialed in


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## Bernie420 (May 24, 2018)

So can somebody explain why I am feeding all this nitrogen to my plants when everything I ever learned is to cut out nitrogen about week two of flower. You cant cut out all the nitrogen my Part A and B had some in it and if you add cal/mag that has nitrogen in there too but I have never added nitrogen if I didn't have to, especially in flower. 

I learned that excessive nitrogen in mother plants can delay/hinder rooting if taking clones from a mother plant and delay flowering if you have excessive nitrogen going into the flowering cycle. 

I should of followed my instincts instead of the chem-gro feed chart. Cant blame any advice here as I was following the feed chart to begin with thinking that powdered nutes was some sort of different animal than my H&G nutes. It may be but the nitrogen is jacking up my shit. There is no other reason for it other than the chem-gro sucks my problem is nutes I have had no other issues about anything with this grow. Heck I even bought new bulbs so that wouldn't be a reason if something didn't go right. Its nute related.

My buds look like they are week 3-4 and I am in week 6 with only two more weeks to go. I have grown this strain out dozens of times they should be jammin but their weak. I'm going to do a water change this weekend and just run the chem-gro by itself. Going to put the chem-gro about 750 ppm of that and add about 50 ppm of cal/mag to put it about 800 ppm thats a 1.6 ec to see if they bounce back. Can't push them too much since their jacked up.


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## im4satori (May 25, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> So can somebody explain why I am feeding all this nitrogen to my plants when everything I ever learned is to cut out nitrogen about week two of flower. You cant cut out all the nitrogen my Part A and B had some in it and if you add cal/mag that has nitrogen in there too but I have never added nitrogen if I didn't have to, especially in flower.
> 
> I learned that excessive nitrogen in mother plants can delay/hinder rooting if taking clones from a mother plant and delay flowering if you have excessive nitrogen going into the flowering cycle.
> 
> ...


I cant really say much more to you
so im going to stop posting in your thread I guess, seems like your not really taking in or grabbing what im throwing

I gave you all the mixing instructions, why your using calmag with chem-gro I have no idea

this is a product that tons of people use with absolute success and the mix I gave you is used by many notable members

peace and positive vibes be with you


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## Bernie420 (May 25, 2018)

I havent used calmag with chem-gro yet. Maybe one of the many notable members with absolute success can explain to me why my flowers are about the size of a nickel in week six after four weeks of following the recommended nutrient ratio application. 

What I can come up with is excessive nitrogen in the flower cycle. So why wouldnt I try cal/mag a 2-0-0 and drop the 15.5-0-0 cal/nit


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## im4satori (May 25, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> I havent used calmag with chem-gro yet. Maybe one of the many notable members with absolute success can explain to me why my flowers are about the size of a nickel in week six after four weeks of following the recommended nutrient ratio application.
> 
> What I can come up with is excessive nitrogen in the flower cycle. So why wouldnt I try cal/mag a 2-0-0 and drop the 15.5-0-0 cal/nit


ah ok, I apologize, I misunderstood, I thought you where already adding calmag also for some strange reason


the three formulas I provided;

each with full descriptions and showing the amount of N in each formula

veg
bloom
late bloom

if you feel your N is too high then choose the late bloom formula mix that has the lower amount of N

I already provided you with an option to reduce N

go back and look at the post again and look at the ppm numbers for each of the elements
looking strictly at N and from memory +/-

veg N 120ppm
bloom N 100ppm
late bloom N 80ppm

notice how the N drops lower depending on the mix ratio
youll also notice the P will increase as you get later into bloom


adding the calmag (which you are correct in that its an option but...) is only going to confuse things since you really don't know how much youll need to balance your cation/fertilizer ratios 

theres a delicate balance between K & Ca & Mg
these three elements will compete for uptake and they need to be balanced to prevent issues, the formulas I gave you are perfectly balanced as they are and adding calmag is only going to mess up the ratios

if you just stick to the 3 recipes youll be in good shape as for as your nutes being balanced they'll be very little to no tweaking needed to dial it in

btw
I suspect your likely over feeding all around and that's why your N is high and your buds are small... what EC are you running?
a proper range would be max or full strength EC1.2 (lowest) to EC 1.5 (highest)

my set up perfectly dialed in sits perfect at EC1.3... for some its a little higher... but theres no reason to feed anything higher than EC1.5... if you are I would bet money that's your issue with reduced bud size

this is all assuming your in hydro, I don't recall your medium, I know you've told me but im a stoner lol


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## im4satori (May 25, 2018)

chemgro 4-20-39 = mix
calcium nitrate = calnite
magnesium sulfate = Epsom
mono potassium phosphate = mkp

*veg grams per gallon*
2.5 calnite
2 Epsom
1.5 mix

yields
N 118
P 35
K 128
Mg 52
Ca 125 (high depending on source water)

*bloom grams per gallon (good for all of bloom)*
2 grams calnite
2 grams Epsom
2 grams mix

yields
N 103
P46
K171 (high only for coco)
mg 52
Ca 100

*late bloom grams per gallon* *(optional high P and lower N but not required)*
1.6 grams calnite
1.5 grams Epsom
1.5 grams mix
0.5 grams mkp

yields
N 81
P 65
K 166
Mg 39
Ca 80


always mix it ther same way/ratios, dilute to desired/target EC/PPM
for a higher EC/ppm add slightly less water
for a lower EC/ppm add/dilute slightly more water


take a minute and watch the yield numbers

notice the N for example in veg is higher and then drops for bloom and drops again in late bloom

meanwhile the P does the opposite as it increases while the N drops

these are good mix ratios youll be very happy with


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## im4satori (May 25, 2018)

the formula I high lighted in red is essentially the lucas formula 1:1:2 NPK
by the time you ph adjust with phosphoric acid youll be exactly the same as lucas

its got a low N ratio with the N being only half the amount of the K

this is considered by most to be a low N ratio and if you use it to soon your plants will or should likely yellow out prematurely (unless your over feeding)

id use the reg bloom mix up to week 4 of 12/12 and thyen if you want a lower N mix switch to the late bloom formula and make sure your not over feeding

I bet youd be much better off if you just used the formulas as I provided which should yield roughly an EC of 1.3 to 1.4 +/-


all the work is done for you, all you gotta do is follow the recipe and not over feed... better to under feed than over feed

nothing will reduce your yields more than an unbalanced fertilizer that your using too much of!!!


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## Bernie420 (May 25, 2018)

im4satori said:


> ah ok, I apologize, I misunderstood, I thought you where already adding calmag also for some strange reason
> 
> 
> the three formulas I provided;
> ...



I am in hydro ebb and flow hydroton media with R O water but need new membranes and the R O water is 0.2-0.3 to start with.

I haven't started to use the cal/mag as of yet and if I did I wouldnt use the cal/nit with it. My ec is 1.7 right now I had it at 1.5 but it has risen to 1.7 since it is taking up more water than nutes I top off the res the ec will go down. So with that info are you going to say I am over feeding cuz the ec should go down along with the water uptake but I have never had the ec go down along with water uptake it has always been the ec goes up a bit the water goes down then if I add water back up to the original level my ec goes down because I am adding R O water back. Clean water will lower your ec concentration. Right now I add water back to the original ec not the original level.

I dont think that I am over feeding with the thinking of when I use H&G at about 3/4 strength and by their feedchart I will get an ec of 1.9-2.2. I understand that overfeeding is bad I have actually over fed small plants and have literally seen them get smaller then I got smart and checked the ppm and I was over feeding by about 450 ppms. But like I said I have pushed my flowers to a 2.2 ec with success but thats H&G - in flower.

So is dry nutes different in that respect?
Maybe my buds are smaller cuz I am underfeeding them. ? Or maybe excess nitrogen??
But this is a sad crop from what I am used to. Very concerning.

I have been running this for the past four weeks 
2 grams calnite
2 grams Epsom
2 grams mix
last water change I added some silica but other than that nothing else. So tomorrow I am going to do a water change and use the bloom ratio you posted just to see what happens, I guess to keep the dry nute experiment going.

So.... how do you know these numbers you posted 
yields
N 81
P 65
K 166
Mg 39
Ca 80


yields
N 118
P 35
K 128
Mg 52
Ca 125 (high depending on source water)

where do these numbers come from???

I thought I would have a better run with these nutes, new nutes new success, but I guess I do better being willy nilly with H&G.

Not going to lie the plants do have signs of nute burn but how can that be with an ec of about 1.6 when I have run H&G to 2.2 with no nute burn. But lets not focus on what I think is a nute burn cuz it may have been caused by something else, I did post that my leaf edges (the points on the leaf edge) are/where sticking up and have that serrated look to them. Those edges turned brown plus the tips and not on the entire plant. My lights may have been too close at the time and have raised them a little.


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## Bernie420 (May 25, 2018)

Idk I guess they show all the signs of being over fed but how can that be at just 800 ppms 1.6ec. I still think there is something else going on.


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## im4satori (May 26, 2018)

as for the nute EC

its the same no matter the brand, and yes I believe your over feeding

like I said, drop it down to 1.3, if the EC drops without top off raise it, but not above 1.5

do a little test, take your single pot, hold it over a bowl and pour some of the reservoir solution thru it and then test the EC.... compare the EC from the solution coming from the bottom of the pot vs that going in at the top of the pot

silica...stop adding silica, it adds K and the additional K could give you magnesium lockout which could exp0lain the leaf curl

the mix already has lots of K, and your already on the high end of your K needs, adding silica/K , I wouldn't


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## Hucklebetty420 (May 26, 2018)

Good growing and maybe i try grow in water to. Looks good is expensive?


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## Rahz (Jun 3, 2018)

I switched to formulating via elemental ppm a while back. At the time I did a good bit of research and came to the conclusion that the agricultural community (cannabis being the exception) had a fairly standard set of ratios and ppm which can vary slightly from one crop to another.

N = generally somewhere between 100-150. 150 would be the high end, probably useful when the product is vegetative like lettuce and other greens.

P = generally somewhere between 20-40 but as high as 80-100 for some crops.

K = generally between 100-150 but as high as 250 for some crops.

It's difficult to translate because of the various mediums involved, but I assume most of the data is in reference to growing in soil, meaning fields that are used year after year. N get's leeched if it's not taken up while P and K are more stable. This could indicate higher PK levels in water and fresh soilless media because they are generally devoid of available NPK.

Which brings us to elemental ppm from 100-50-150 to 100-100-250. Those formulations will generally result in EC readings of around 1-1.2.

It does depend on the brand of fertilizer and it can vary a lot. I replicated a NPK elemental ppm profile using two different nutrient formulas. The meter registered a 25% difference between the two formulas. I then bumped up the ppm on the weaker solution with a combination of pk booster and complete fert to equal the other and ended up with 50% more K and 40% more N. This is the reason why formulating based on TDS alone is going to be sloppy.

Another issue as mentioned is uptake competition. PK boosters that don't contain micros will change those ratios so if someone want's to push the EC to 1.5 and beyond it would be best to get as close as possible without using PK boosters unless one can maintain micro ratios with additional supplements. I am experimenting with the 1.5-2 EC range, but haven't gotten enough data to speak about possible benefits yet. I can say that using high levels of fert and added PK boosters can result in elemental P ppm of 150-200+ and K of 300-425+.

A more traditional farmer would say that was just crazy. The clerk at the grow store will tell you traditional farmers have to look at cost to benefit ratio of low value crops and that just doesn't apply to us, so we push the limits. There is some logic in this principal so I want to explore it and see for myself first hand.


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## Purpsmagurps (Jun 3, 2018)

I'm doing a side by side journal with Jacks 3-2-1 in coco and RDWC. should have some good info by the end. I ended up taking advice from tty here and his RDWC ratio is pretty similar to the coco recipe I'm running. with the possibility of adding more K to the rdwc side and running lower ppms hopefully it meshes well.


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## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2018)

Rahz said:


> I can say that using high levels of fert and added PK boosters can result in elemental P ppm of 150-200+ and K of 300-425+.
> 
> A more traditional farmer would say that was just crazy.


I also think P that high is crazy. Same with K. N at 200ppm is not crazy.

Have you checked out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoagland_solution yet or did you rule this out as a common agriculture community standard? It is an old formula, but I still wonder if you've considered it in selecting ranges and ratios.


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## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2018)

There are 2 reasons farmers don't use higher levels of P.

There has been a lot of research done on the effects of P concentration vs growth rates and just about all of it suggests that below a certain concentration, growth will be stunted proportionally to how far below that concentration it is, but after that point, there are no effects. So after a certain concentration of P, you're guaranteed to be throwing it away with res change with no extra growth.

The other reason farmers don't use too much P is runoff of P in particular is heavily regulated to prevent algae blooms in nearby ponds and streams.


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## Rahz (Jun 4, 2018)

churchhaze said:


> I also think P that high is crazy. Same with K. N at 200ppm is not crazy.
> 
> Have you checked out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoagland_solution yet or did you rule this out as a common agriculture community standard? It is an old formula, but I still wonder if you've considered it in selecting ranges and ratios.


I wouldn't rule it out. My problem with N at 200 is that I get plenty of growth at 100. It's something worth testing but it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I kinda settled on 100-50-150 as a good formula based on my research and am now looking to try variations and see what the difference is. One that sticks out is raising the K. I've noticed various non-canna nutrient formulas have K well over 200. I also think P at 200 and K over 300 is probably pointless. I got into debate with the grow shop owner and ended up agreeing to do a side by side. Maxigro/bloom/koolbloom -vs- his choice of liquid nutrient (Canna series) + his choice of PK booster (MOAB) and shooting powder. He wanted me to top out at around 1200 ppm (700 scale) so that's how this test will run. He offered to pony up for his choice of nutrients so I agreed to run the test.

I'm unclear on the shooting powder as it's listed as a PK booster, yet examining the package it appears to have almost no P or K. It seems to be some kind of late growth stimulator and not really a fertilizer so I'm not sure how it will affect the product. My personal expectation is that while things can be tweaked, it will be difficult to make a notable improvement over (cheaper) Maxi dry series. I am only playing with the Koolbloom as a way to keep N around 100, but if higher levels of N in bloom aren't an issue then it should be easy to get high TDS results with just gro/bloom... not that I necessarly want high TDS levels. One formula I would like to try would be 100-50-250, but Maxi series isn't capable of producing those ratios.

All my prior testing has been light spectrum-vs-spectrum so now that I'm switching over to modifying fertilizer variables I think I will gain some useful insight in the next year or so. I'm not opposed to trying something similar to the Hoagland solution.


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## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2018)

Rahz said:


> One formula I would like to try would be 100-50-250, but Maxi series isn't capable of producing those ratios.


You could probably get somewhere close to there using potassium nitrate as a source of potassium, of course you'd have to use less calcium nitrate to keep N the same. That's the problem with experimenting with changing 1 element in general. You always end up changing more than 1 unless you also sharply change pH. (you could use potassium hydroxide and get only potassium, etc).

I'd suspect this level of K will antagonize Mg, but you can't really tell without trying. I see making nutrients more like baking than anything else. You just have to dial in on what seems to be optimal.



Rahz said:


> I'm not opposed to trying something similar to the Hoagland solution.


I've tried using Hoagland straight up and while it did work, I use it mostly as a point of reference. (Hoag +30ppm P, for example)

.


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## Rahz (Jun 4, 2018)

churchhaze said:


> You could probably get somewhere close to there using potassium nitrate as a source of potassium, of course you'd have to use less calcium nitrate to keep N the same. That's the problem with experimenting with changing 1 element in general.
> .


I have worked out a calc in Excel to play around with these things. I haven't added fields for Ca, Mg and Na but probably will soon.

 

First three numbers on line 29 provide a bottle ratio. Last three are elemental ppm.

Ionic bloom with N normalized to 100 (19ml per gallon) comes out to 100-43-208. If I wanted to maintain the same K/Ca/Mg ratio while bumping K to 250 I could probably get very close by lowering the base fert a bit and adding some Cal/Mag. I need to work in additional fields so I can see the actual cation ratios.

 

I don't like using more expensive liquids (or expensive powders)... but since I have these products on hand might as well use them.


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## im4satori (Jun 4, 2018)

Rahz said:


> I wouldn't rule it out. My problem with N at 200 is that I get plenty of growth at 100. It's something worth testing but it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I kinda settled on 100-50-150 as a good formula based on my research and am now looking to try variations and see what the difference is. One that sticks out is raising the K. I've noticed various non-canna nutrient formulas have K well over 200. I also think P at 200 and K over 300 is probably pointless. I got into debate with the grow shop owner and ended up agreeing to do a side by side. Maxigro/bloom/koolbloom -vs- his choice of liquid nutrient (Canna series) + his choice of PK booster (MOAB) and shooting powder. He wanted me to top out at around 1200 ppm (700 scale) so that's how this test will run. He offered to pony up for his choice of nutrients so I agreed to run the test.
> 
> I'm unclear on the shooting powder as it's listed as a PK booster, yet examining the package it appears to have almost no P or K. It seems to be some kind of late growth stimulator and not really a fertilizer so I'm not sure how it will affect the product. My personal expectation is that while things can be tweaked, it will be difficult to make a notable improvement over (cheaper) Maxi dry series. I am only playing with the Koolbloom as a way to keep N around 100, but if higher levels of N in bloom aren't an issue then it should be easy to get high TDS results with just gro/bloom... not that I necessarly want high TDS levels. One formula I would like to try would be 100-50-250, but Maxi series isn't capable of producing those ratios.
> 
> All my prior testing has been light spectrum-vs-spectrum so now that I'm switching over to modifying fertilizer variables I think I will gain some useful insight in the next year or so. I'm not opposed to trying something similar to the Hoagland solution.


have you looked at the numbers using 50/50 maxigrow/maxibloom
its almost spot on your 100-50-150 ratios with adequate calcium and magnesium

the maxi bloom alone has a very large P number so its not my first choice

the dry koolbloom powder, I don't see a use for it for any reason.. but some claim itll hasten the harvest or whatever


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## Rahz (Jun 4, 2018)

im4satori said:


> have you looked at the numbers using 50/50 maxigrow/maxibloom
> its almost spot on your 100-50-150 ratios with adequate calcium and magnesium
> 
> the maxi bloom alone has a very large P number so its not my first choice
> ...


Yes, I got the idea from you actually. After week 4 of flower I tend to switch to 2g gro and 4g bloom but it's still about 100 N and well under 1000 ppm. The reason I'm using the Koolbloom is I'm doing a test taking two different formulations to 1200 in flower to see which one does better. Honestly I expect them to do about the same. It wouldn't surprise me if the recommended liquid nutrient, name brand Pk booster and whatever slick chemistry is in the shooting powder does better than Maxi, but I wouldn't expect it to be by much.

Beyond that, unless I get some amazing results I'll probably go back to something more reasonable and start testing different Maxi formulations. At most I'm thinking a year or two should reveal the ideal elemental NPK ppm.


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## Bernie420 (Aug 6, 2018)

Im on the second grow going on week four and the buds aint shit again. Its either too much nitrogen or my ppms are too low. Or these dry nutes just aint for me. Im thinking the nitrogen might be low enough but idk for sure. I do feel like at the flip they stretched a lot more than in the past so........again idk.

Ill have to post up what I did later to figure out what is going wrong. I bought more chemgro so I had to be dedicated to this but might have to switch back


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## Bernie420 (Aug 8, 2018)

Any peeps know any good videos or info about dry nutes or the mixing of dry nutes. nutrient ratio's explained. 

TIA


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## jimihendrix1 (Aug 9, 2018)

Chem Gro has a page that shows how to mix ect.

I use it at 20% of recommended dose if watering by hand, and I Feed every watering.

They say you need to mix the Base first, then the 15.5 0 0 The Mg
Needs to be mixed well before adding next ingredient.

I start off with 1tsp of Base, and 1tsp 15.5 0 0 per 5 gallons water 60% tsp Mg.
And slowly increase over time. I measure everything in 5 gallons, and then basically use 20%-25% of recommended strength.




4-20-39 Recipe 2017



How To Mix Chem-Gro Fertilizers


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## Bernie420 (Aug 25, 2018)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Chem Gro has a page that shows how to mix ect.
> 
> I use it at 20% of recommended dose if watering by hand, and I Feed every watering.
> 
> ...



Isnt that fed chart screwy the other guy said to keep it about a 1.2-1.4 ec but the first week of flower according to the feed chart it states a 2.4 ec in it and I went up to a 1.9 and burnt up my junk. So I dont get it. Maybe that isnt my only problem though still trying to get it together and figure it out. Not good results at all in what I am doing.


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## Bernie420 (Aug 25, 2018)

I need to know = I am vegging with house and gardens to use it up had really nice looking plants going into flower and then switched to the chem-gro 4/20/39 right at the flip. *Is that a bone head move or what. *

At the start of the flip I had crap R/O water with just 50 ppms removed so that was 350 start tap water, fixed that now I have R/O water with a start ppm of just 20 did compensate for the being mostly tap = underfed but high ppm cuz of the tap and then I was about a 1.6-1.9ec, then got he R/O fixed ended up with the same ec - straight nutes. over fed.

Got a little smart and now I am about a 1.2ec. so basically burnt my junk up all kinds of deficiencies, roots look a bit fried as well.

I"m just a wreck, I can grow with the H&G but not dry nutes.

I almost want to cut this crop down so I dont have to trim it but want to learn how to fix it / use dry nutes and get killer buds like I can with the H&G



before pic

current pics
The tiny stretched tops happened after I fixed my R/O water.




the pics above are about week5-6 this pic is what I am used to at this time so I am pretty P.Oed


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## Rahz (Aug 26, 2018)

Bernie420 said:


> Any peeps know any good videos or info about dry nutes or the mixing of dry nutes. nutrient ratio's explained.
> 
> TIA


Here's the calculator I use (Excel file in zip).

Safe NPK ratios:
N: 100-200 (some people drop N well below 100 as flowers mature)
P: 20-100 (20 is low number for veg, can be higher, professional ag. usually adds no more than 40 even during fruit/flower formation but there may be benefit to higher numbers)
K: 150-250 (questionable benefit in closing in on 250. 150 works fine) I have found tomato fertilizers that use 250 ppm K when N is adjusted to 100.

Those numbers are estimates based on my research and should be safe. If you maxed out all 3 variables (200/100/250) it will be pushing safe levels. Try to work out something like 100:50:150 and make adjustments as desired. A complete fertilizer (with micros) will have adequate cal/mag depending on grow method (hydro/soil/peat). I use a 50/50 peat/coir mix so I can have problems if I don't add cal/mag in veg and early flower. As you can see, you can use cal/mag to increase the N content and Si (in the form of potassium silicate) to increase the K content.

Anyway, how the calc works: There are 4 calculators in the sheet, you only need one and can erase the others. I use this sheet because I like having multiple calcs on the same page. You can copy paste to add more calculators to the same sheet. Replace the name(s) with your nutrient(s) names. The next three columns are the bottle ratios (NPK listed on the bottle/bag). Change them to reflect your nutrients. The column after that is the amount (either grams/dry or ml/liquid) of each nutrient per gallon. These are the numbers you will play with to adjust amounts and affect the final formulation. The three columns beyond that are the resulting NPK ppms for each nutrient. Below those numbers are the actual NPK ppms of the whole formula. Below the bottle ratios you see three more numbers. They are the total NPK bottle ratios. I just include it to see what the ideal bottle ratios might be.

You can delete rows if you don't need them and it won't break the calculator. If you copy/paste to add a row you may need to adjust the formula in the NPK ppm total fields to include the extra row/s. You can use wet, dry, or a combination of wet and dry.


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## Bernie420 (Aug 26, 2018)

Rahz said:


> Here's the calculator I use (Excel file in zip).


ok thanks for the reply. 
Ill check out that zip you posted.

I guess I dont know anything about mixing nutes.


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## Bernie420 (Aug 26, 2018)

Anybody know the answer to this 

I am vegging with house and gardens to use it up had really nice looking plants going into flower and then switched to the chem-gro 4/20/39 right at the flip. *Is that a bone head move or what. 
*
And why can I grow with H&G and push the ppms up and Im ok?? Is it because the H&G ratio's are on point and what I am doing is fugging up my ratio's? So Its all jacked up? With H&G by mid flower Im up to a 1.8-1.9 then bring it back down with no problems.

Why does that chem-gro feed chart have such high ppms posted in it?? When everybody is saying 1.2-1.4ec max.


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## Bernie420 (Sep 1, 2018)

Well their starting to turn around. Still think there is to much nitrogen in these nutes, I dont like the stretchy tops. They do look better, no super hard nugs or anything but bigger at least, maybe next time I wont fry them right at the get go.


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## Huckster79 (Sep 1, 2018)

Check out jacks


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## Bernie420 (Sep 1, 2018)

Huckster79 said:


> Check out jacks


I got 10 plus pounds of this chem-gro.


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## Bernie420 (Sep 29, 2018)

Another failed crop. Threw most of it away as it wasnt worth messing with it.

I'll try one more time when I get the next set vegged up. same strain. I'll try not to burn it up at the flip this time. I dont see where I went wrong other than that. If it doesnt work then I'll have to switch back. maybe dry nutes isnt my thing??????idk.

So I am applying the keep it low at the flip and dont try to stress them out or burn them up at the flip philosophy with my H&G crop, only gone up to a 1.2ec so far. I do have to get in there and do some work but I think they look pretty good for week 3.5.

Marion Berry


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## im4satori (Sep 29, 2018)

they look over fed


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## Bernie420 (Sep 29, 2018)

im4satori said:


> they look over fed


no way
camera phone, or your putor screen is off color, I need to try to spread them out and do a little lollipopin. Their about a foot past the light if I pull the main tops up is my only problem with this set.


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