# Simulating sun rise/set AND SAVING ELECTRICITY



## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 17, 2011)

Now that I have your attention, I had a thought pop into my head the other day and I think this could be big.
If we are in fact trying to simulate outdoors as much as possible, then would simulating a sunrise/set affect be beneficial?

So,you have four lights IN A ROW obviously these lights have plants under all of them, for this example lets name these lights A,B,C and D. And for the sake of simplicity, lets say the time your flower room will be lit is between 12PM and 12AM. Light "A" would come on from 12PM and turn off at 9PM, lights "B" and "C" would come on at 2PM and turn off at 10PM and light "D" would turn on at 3PM and back off at 12AM. That is just an example, may not be the best combination of times.
This is just a thought and I am not saying in any way that this is definitely going to help your plants, but maybe? If the yield was comparable to running all those lights on for 12 hours it would be HUGE! The lighting schedule above would lower electricity consumption (with the lights) by about 30%!
I would like to test this out, but don't have a room big enough to try this right now. I am limited to 2000w and it seems that you would need at least three lights to try this. But I figured I'd throw it out there and maybe somebody else might give it a go.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 17, 2011)

Also,let me throw this in.I don't know if anyone has already tried this. I'm not trying to take credit for anybodies ideas.


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## full of purple (Dec 17, 2011)

WAste of time and reduction of yeild, We grow indoors to controll the times if your thinking about the sun grow outside


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 17, 2011)

full of purple said:


> WAste of time and reduction of yeild, We grow indoors to controll the times if your thinking about the sun grow outside


 Thanks! So, you don't agree that simulating outdoors is beneficial? Especially lightwise? Let me guess,you just tested this theory out in the 3 minutes it took you to reply?


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 17, 2011)

And! In that case, why doesn't everybody flower under a 13/11 schedule? We all know that plants will flower under 13 hours of light, so according to you everybody who flowers with 12/12 is wasting time and reducing their yield?


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 17, 2011)

I grow indoors because I don't want my plants to get stolen, NOT because I want to control everything. Plants grow much better outdoors with much less effort as well.


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## Rj41 (Dec 17, 2011)

Try it out and post the results.

Did you know that side lighting during "lights on" time is beneficial to overall yield.

edit: well, that is if you're not using high wattage lights.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 17, 2011)

Rj41 said:


> Try it out and post the results.
> 
> Did you know that side lighting during "lights on" time is beneficial to overall yield.


I'd love to be able to, but I am limited to two 1000w lights in my room. Yes side lighting helps
It's understandable to be skeptical, but I think it's very narrow minded to just jump in and say this won't work. Do you think if we went back in the day and told people fifty years ago about all the new breakthroughs in indoor gardening that we do now compared to how they used to do shit those people would say "bull shit, that won't work!"?.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 17, 2011)

I want to clarify the second part of my last post was not directed towards you RJ, just the first part.


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## mccumcumber (Dec 17, 2011)

Look into a light mover.

Edit: We grow indoor to mimic perfect outdoor conditions...


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## canefan (Dec 18, 2011)

Interesting concept but in all fairness to simulate the sun more closely you would need to increase the level quicker than a 2 hour gap inbetween adding lights I would think. The low light early morning sun is when the sun is waking up the plants. Here again just thinking outloud with a cup of coffee and my pipe. Wouldn't some additional lighting be more accurate simulation? Taking some maybe cfl's and having them come on a bit before and then staying on a bit after the main lights came on and went off.
I grow mainly outdoors but also move them inside under lights depending on the weather here. I live in the mountains of Costa Rica and don't have much change of seasons by the suntimes, but have some really hellish weather. I use a 12 or 11 light regime on the girls depending on the time of year staying as close to suntimes as possible. They veg outside and go inside every night to get their 18 hours of total light. Once they go to flower they get either the 12 or the 11 depending whether they are flowering before the summer solstice or afterwards.
The best advice I could give would be to try on a small scale if possible to see what works for you. The girls are tough and if they have the same light schedule each day with the same lighting schedule they should be fine with no hermie issues. That being said I wouldn't do this unless I was starting their flower cycle in this manner and kept it the same throughout the flower.
Just my two cents, good luck to your endeavors.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 18, 2011)

mccumcumber said:


> Look into a light mover.
> 
> Edit: We grow indoor to mimic perfect outdoor conditions...


Yes and a perfect day outdoors would involve a sunrise and sunset.
Light movers don't do this, they simply move back and fourth several times in one day, the sun doesn't ever do that. A light mover is not like what I'm talking about.



canefan said:


> Interesting concept but in all fairness to simulate the sun more closely you would need to increase the level quicker than a 2 hour gap inbetween adding lights I would think. The low light early morning sun is when the sun is waking up the plants. Here again just thinking outloud with a cup of coffee and my pipe. Wouldn't some additional lighting be more accurate simulation? Taking some maybe cfl's and having them come on a bit before and then staying on a bit after the main lights came on and went off.
> I grow mainly outdoors but also move them inside under lights depending on the weather here. I live in the mountains of Costa Rica and don't have much change of seasons by the suntimes, but have some really hellish weather. I use a 12 or 11 light regime on the girls depending on the time of year staying as close to suntimes as possible. They veg outside and go inside every night to get their 18 hours of total light. Once they go to flower they get either the 12 or the 11 depending whether they are flowering before the summer solstice or afterwards.
> The best advice I could give would be to try on a small scale if possible to see what works for you. The girls are tough and if they have the same light schedule each day with the same lighting schedule they should be fine with no hermie issues. That being said I wouldn't do this unless I was starting their flower cycle in this manner and kept it the same throughout the flower.
> Just my two cents, good luck to your endeavors.


Yes, I was just putting up pretty much random On/Off times in the example. That's not necessarily the exact times the lights would come on and go off, was just trying to make it understandable. And yes your CFL idea sounds good too, but I was thinking of this idea being more of an energy saver for big grows instead of using extra electricity to do it. And to take it even farther, the first light that comes on could be a MH to simulate the more blue light that we get in the morning.
And yes they would be under this flower schedule the entire flower period. We know that these plants will flower and do fine under 10 or eleven hours of light, seems like it would do fine with 9 hours of intense light and a few more of some dimmed light. Doesn't seem that hermaphrodites would be a problem at all.


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## 20plus (Dec 18, 2011)

what would really be helpful is automatic dimmers on ballasts. since the sun gets "brighter" towards the middle of the day it would be nice if you could program say 1000w lights to start out at their lowest wattage and gradually increase till "high noon" and then gradually "set" as the sun does. so far as i can tell the closer an indoor grower can get to outdoor conditions the better, from there you could fine tune things like co2 or uvb, whatever your heart desires to produce the best possible environment for a given phenotype


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## acidbug (Dec 18, 2011)

Or how about some led netting like they use in big commercial greenhouses growing tomato and things, like this http://www.netled.fi/optogrowia_interlight 
used for sidelighting and waking up the plants in the morning.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 18, 2011)

20plus said:


> what would really be helpful is automatic dimmers on ballasts. since the sun gets "brighter" towards the middle of the day it would be nice if you could program say 1000w lights to start out at their lowest wattage and gradually increase till "high noon" and then gradually "set" as the sun does. so far as i can tell the closer an indoor grower can get to outdoor conditions the better, from there you could fine tune things like co2 or uvb, whatever your heart desires to produce the best possible environment for a given phenotype


Hmmm that would be nice


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## mccumcumber (Dec 18, 2011)

My edit was in response to full of purple.

A light mover could start at one point and slowly go to an end point. You can also set up a timer to make your ballast work at 1/2 efficiency while the mover is near the start and end point. That's why I said look into one. It involves a simple computer program, but it's not at all hard to implement.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 18, 2011)

mccumcumber said:


> My edit was in response to full of purple.
> 
> A light mover could start at one point and slowly go to an end point. You can also set up a timer to make your ballast work at 1/2 efficiency while the mover is near the start and end point. That's why I said look into one. It involves a simple computer program, but it's not at all hard to implement.


Could you set up a light mover so it would slowly move over the plants once in a 12 hour period and then during the dark period return to it's original spot. and then do it again and so fourth?


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## mccumcumber (Dec 18, 2011)

Si senor! That's their primary purpose.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 18, 2011)

Yea I think you could if You have some skills with computers and stuff... I would never be able to make one that does that myself. 


I think you have a great idea, I was thinking of something similar myself, except not really worrying about having the direction of the light change as just the intesity. I think there is something to be said about replicating conditions of outdoors, although that doesnt garantee this will have a positive effect. I guess it depends on if plants have a wake up period, and if skipping that by having tens of thousands of lumens being shot at them when moments ago there was total darkness gives them stress or not? I dont know the science but Id think theres a chance this will be good for plants. and unless your running a huge show you should have fun with it, and try new things, I see it as a hobby, If you brewed your own beer would just want to brew the same recipe every time? no youd experiment...

Heres what I had planned(actually I may do this) :
You have a grow area of say 5x10 feet, you have three lights set up along its length. The two lights on the ends are 600watt HPS and turn on first, these give the red spectrum of light which is strongest at sunrise and sunset, after two hours the light in the middle, a metal halide turns on and puts out the blue spectrum which is strongest at midday. So this method focuses more on the type of light and change in intesity and less on what angle the light is coming from.


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## mccumcumber (Dec 18, 2011)

> *Yea I think you could if You have some skills with computers and stuff... I would never be able to make one that does that myself. *


You wouldn't need a program to make the light mover move over an area in 12 hours that is mechanical, and very easy to do. What you would need to have is some sort of timer that goes from 0-0.5x-x-0.5x-0 where x is the amount of watts your light is. And to have it do that over a specific period of time. I'm pretty sure that can be easily handled with a digital timer and digital ballast though, if not the computer program to implement it is just a simple java program, anyone who has taken cs 101 could do it.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 18, 2011)

I didnt understand you .5 - x-x thing... and Ive never taken cs 101, to have it move at the exact right speed to get to the other side in 12 hours and then stop and go back the other way... id think youd need to program it to do that, I dont know how to connect my computer to anything that would do that and I dont even know what sortof hardware you would use. Im not too worried though, I like my system better with lights running on analog timers, 2 smaller ones on for 12 hours and 1 bigger one on for 8 hours. I think it would work better in my oppinion and its easier to setup. that being said I kinda wish I had the skills to set up something that would run on programs and sensors rather than analog timers. My ideal setup would have exhaust, humidifier, dehumidifier, lights, heaters, fans, and co2 bottle all operated by a program that I can completely adjust how I want it, I just have No idea how I can do that? It seems pretty archaic to being running things off of shitty timers, even the expensive timers are pretty low tech. If I were going to learn how to run a setup that way Id probably just start up a business selling to growers cause it would total control and no guesswork.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 18, 2011)

Thedillestpickle said:


> Yea I think you could if You have some skills with computers and stuff... I would never be able to make one that does that myself.
> 
> 
> I think you have a great idea, I was thinking of something similar myself, except not really worrying about having the direction of the light change as just the intesity. I think there is something to be said about replicating conditions of outdoors, although that doesnt garantee this will have a positive effect. I guess it depends on if plants have a wake up period, and if skipping that by having tens of thousands of lumens being shot at them when moments ago there was total darkness gives them stress or not? I dont know the science but Id think theres a chance this will be good for plants. and unless your running a huge show you should have fun with it, and try new things, I see it as a hobby, If you brewed your own beer would just want to brew the same recipe every time? no youd experiment...
> ...


Yes! This is very much like what I had in mind, obviously not exactly the same. 
I do wonder if the changing of the angle VERY SLOWLY would help though, seems like this could be something they've grown a custom to over the years. Obviously you don't want to simulate every single thing in nature, like tornado's, hurricanes and such. But this is different,it's something that naturally happens everyday.


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## einsteinus (Dec 18, 2011)

Also you would have to include the prevalence of cloud cover on any given day....there are SO MANY VARIABLES in any outside growing senerio...so this is the kicker..YOU USE THE BEST PLUSES NATURE HAS TO OFFER AND MINIMIZE THE NEGATIVES..IE: if noon sun on a July summers day stimulates growth why not do that 24 hrs everyday rather then simulate a two week long series of thunderstorms which have been a part of many of my outside grows. We can learn from nature that cannabis can take a lot of climatary conditions..._*so if you mimic nature*_ and whats best NORMALLY for your plants ( 72 Degrees/40 % RH/ 16 Hrs avg light 9000 Lumens/ft2) and_ that matches the best growing condition for a certain mold/mildew that Naturally lives in your area _(indoors OR outdoors) then you will have a _*very nature like natural moldy plant that will mimic dieing*_...so it's a_* balance *_to go the best possible conditions you can..thats why man invented greenhouses becasue there is nothing like having 8 or 9 1000 Square foot greenhouses with a few thousand plants ..that way you and nature can come togeather and really grow so good shit and a lot of it..and when it gets real hot in the summer you just paint the glass with that wash off white paint of a few months to keep the temps under 90 degrees .. I am telling you NATURALLY you will grow a lot of stuff....and thats how real science does real mass scale genectics on thousands of plants over many generations. It would take around 10 years and at least a few hundred greenhouses working year round the produce the kind of results I would like to see in this field...


Blunt Master Flex said:


> Now that I have your attention, I had a thought pop into my head the other day and I think this could be big.
> If we are in fact trying to simulate outdoors as much as possible, then would simulating a sunrise/set affect be beneficial?
> 
> So,you have four lights IN A ROW obviously these lights have plants under all of them, for this example lets name these lights A,B,C and D. And for the sake of simplicity, lets say the time your flower room will be lit is between 12PM and 12AM. Light "A" would come on from 12PM and turn off at 9PM, lights "B" and "C" would come on at 2PM and turn off at 10PM and light "D" would turn on at 3PM and back off at 12AM. That is just an example, may not be the best combination of times.
> ...


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## einsteinus (Dec 18, 2011)

PS I do use the dimmers on all my ballasts all day..they start off at 50% HID and 0% CFL Fill and at peak day time I run (usually if no babies are under them) at 100% HID and close to 100% CFL -- since I use a mixture of HPS and MEH I also mix in various CFL combos of 5K 2K 3K that are mounted vert..I picked up some stuff from this board but one thing thats interesting is mixing diff spectrums so that they blend a few inches above the plants..I not only listen to my plants but I also watch how they lean and give them what they want (you have to be real quiet becasue when they are small they can't talk to loud)


Thedillestpickle said:


> I didnt understand you .5 - x-x thing... and Ive never taken cs 101, to have it move at the exact right speed to get to the other side in 12 hours and then stop and go back the other way... id think youd need to program it to do that, I dont know how to connect my computer to anything that would do that and I dont even know what sortof hardware you would use. Im not too worried though, I like my system better with lights running on analog timers, 2 smaller ones on for 12 hours and 1 bigger one on for 8 hours. I think it would work better in my oppinion and its easier to setup. that being said I kinda wish I had the skills to set up something that would run on programs and sensors rather than analog timers. My ideal setup would have exhaust, humidifier, dehumidifier, lights, heaters, fans, and co2 bottle all operated by a program that I can completely adjust how I want it, I just have No idea how I can do that? It seems pretty archaic to being running things off of shitty timers, even the expensive timers are pretty low tech. If I were going to learn how to run a setup that way Id probably just start up a business selling to growers cause it would total control and no guesswork.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 18, 2011)

well yea obviously we dont want to recreate the exact same conditions or we would be leaving the males in there to pollinate!

I think this is a good time to mention my idea with spinning plants..... Its not "natural", but it would be really cool if it were to give me a wicked GPW.

I actually built a platform that holds 1 plant and has its own motor that spins the plant at 7 revolutions per minute, its heavy duty and I can stand on the thing and it moves no problem.... Id like to slow it down more to one and a half or two revs a minute, but im not that educated on electricity or motors perhaps I can fit a smaller motor to the gear box/sprocket im using right now. or I can figure it out with a resistor or something. My plan is to grow the plants straight and tall topping once to get 4 colas and training them to bamboo poles fastened to the pots to stay within a given cylindrical radius designated to that plant(so that it doesnt touch anything as it rotates. I was super stoked on the idea and made a prototype already unfortunately I have people living above me and the churning noise it makes seems to seep through the walls... So I cant use the prototype but I might try finding a quieter littler motor(wouldnt need to be very big to run this with the gear box it has). 

there was a thread where this was brought up about rotating your plants everyday to get even lighting and alot of people were saying your plant would waste alot of energy just moving its leaves around and though you would have a more even bud in the end it would be smaller. I think my spinning rotisserie bud contraption solves this issue. I should point out I plan to grow my plants in a vertical setup rather than horizontal, so youd have to imagine there are 3 lights hanging one above the other vertically and surrounded by five or six plants, each spinning on a motorized platform. Imagine how close you could get a plant if its spinning? you would have to get the plant really close to get any light burn, so you would have intense light getting to all sides of the plant and from all angles of the dimension that the plant is rotating on. Id really like to come up with a solution for the noise issue with my motor so I can actually put this to the test. Oh yes and with the three vertical lights I could still do my sunup sundown imitation with turning the top HPS on for an hour than the second HPS on and wait an hour than the MH comes on(for sunrise, and opposite for sunset)
I think if it works at creating big nugs and heavier harvest as I suspect it should the real benefit will be for people looking to grow a very limited number of plants(say 5 or 6) as they can max out each plant giving it way more intense light than is normally possible

what do you think? crazy or genius?


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## aptFarmer (Dec 18, 2011)

mccumcumber said:


> You wouldn't need a program to make the light mover move over an area in 12 hours that is mechanical, and very easy to do. What you would need to have is some sort of timer that goes from 0-0.5x-x-0.5x-0 where x is the amount of watts your light is. And to have it do that over a specific period of time. I'm pretty sure that can be easily handled with a digital timer and digital ballast though, if not the computer program to implement it is just a simple java program, anyone who has taken cs 101 could do it.



First off, there is alot of good information here. I think most of the ideas are worth trying out. I think that indoor growing is progressing more quickly now than probably at any other time and there are ALOT of ways to manipulate the variables to get what you want. To McCucumber, I have been thinking about your idea for some time now. I'm a currently a science student so i've had to take alot of physics/calc/ and programming. My question to you, is how can I incorporate this? I've taken Java 101 and Python 101, each having its own benefits but it seems Java would obviously be the choice to create a program that could "run" your growroom. However, I dont know if my teacher wasnt knowledgeable, or just naive, but he didnt teach us much of anything besides working with arrays, formatting, and simple output. Also, how would you connect your computer to all of your equipment? (I think someone half asked this already..) Perhaps some more reading and investigation is in order because I think creating a program to help run your growroom (lights/times/heat/atmosphere/humidity) would be extremely beneficial. Not because plants should be grown in a labratory (whatsoever), but because isnt this what we all buy these expensive timers/movers/ and meters for? It could really consolidate and provide a perpetually perfect environment for whatever strain you were growing. Sorry for the novel, just my two cents.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 18, 2011)

einsteinus said:


> Also you would have to include the prevalence of cloud cover on any given day....there are SO MANY VARIABLES in any outside growing senerio...so this is the kicker..YOU USE THE BEST PLUSES NATURE HAS TO OFFER AND MINIMIZE THE NEGATIVES..IE: if noon sun on a July summers day stimulates growth why not do that 24 hrs everyday rather then simulate a two week long series of thunderstorms which have been a part of many of my outside grows. We can learn from nature that cannabis can take a lot of climatary conditions..._*so if you mimic nature*_ and whats best NORMALLY for your plants ( 72 Degrees/40 % RH/ 16 Hrs avg light 9000 Lumens/ft2) and_ that matches the best growing condition for a certain mold/mildew that Naturally lives in your area _(indoors OR outdoors) then you will have a _*very nature like natural moldy plant that will mimic dieing*_...so it's a_* balance *_to go the best possible conditions you can..thats why man invented greenhouses becasue there is nothing like having 8 or 9 1000 Square foot greenhouses with a few thousand plants ..that way you and nature can come togeather and really grow so good shit and a lot of it..and when it gets real hot in the summer you just paint the glass with that wash off white paint of a few months to keep the temps under 90 degrees .. I am telling you NATURALLY you will grow a lot of stuff....and thats how real science does real mass scale genectics on thousands of plants over many generations. It would take around 10 years and at least a few hundred greenhouses working year round the produce the kind of results I would like to see in this field...


I'm not sure that I'm following this post correctly. Of course you're not gonna be able to simulate clouds (nor would you want to ever?) and where did the simulating thunderstorms for two weeks come from? I'm strictly talking about the effects of the sun, not all the bad things that may happen to your plants in nature. July summer days have sunrises and sunsets.


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## mccumcumber (Dec 18, 2011)

Ok first off the light mover:
http://www.lightrail3.com/light-rail-5-0-commercial-drive/
Look at the kit. You can adjust the motors speed (if you can't do it on that specific model I'll show you another one that can I literally just googled the first light mover) to whatever would be ideal for your room. If it moves too fast and you can't adjust the motor you could just buy a slower motor (less rpms), or an adjustable one, I know for a fact that they do make those. I have no idea why you think you would need a program for that.

Onto the dimming. I'm pretty sure you can figure out the pseudo code, I'll do an outline for you:
You need to get a timer that will hook up to a computer, basically it needs to have a very basic os so it can understand some sort of code. You may have to resort to using machine code, which would blow, but isn't too hard if you know hex. You won't find this at a hydro store, but they most certainly do exist. You could probably find them online. You could also ask your electrician. I'm actually almost positive they already have mechanical timers that will do this for you. I think they are called three way timers, but in the case that they don't. 
Hour counter, make a program that keeps time, preferably one that does it by the hour. Have the hour count go up to 24.
ballast strength, make a program that controls your ballast's strength. The new digital ballasts have 5 options I think. So you would make it so it could read from 1-5
int ballast str= x = 0
int hour=0
while hour > 0 < 12
x = 3
if hour > 1 < 11
x=5

For veg

int ballast str= x = 0
int hour=0
while hour > 0 < 18
x = 3
if hour > 1 < 17
x=5

That'll cover the basic stuff. Again, I'm almost positive they have mechanical timers that will do that for you already, but in the case that they don't there's the pseudo code. I'm also pretty sure there are some digital three way timers you could buy at your local hydro store, but I don't really shop for that sort of thing, so I don't know for sure. I agree with you that being able to hook up a grow room is the way to go, but you need to know a little bit about hardware to do it. Specifically circuits, once you can create a circuit that understands what you are telling your mechanical shit to do you're golden. I unfortunately do not know too much about circuits; however, I have a few friends that do. Maybe I'll get off my lazy ass some day and turn that pseudo code into a real program... it would be a fun little experiment... I have no need to grow indoor for a little while, so when I run out of weed it'll probably be my motivating factor of when to get off my ass.

Edit: Found one! http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/electrical/timers/electronic/120-240-277v-20a-spdt-outdoor-lighting-control-no-case


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 18, 2011)

It sounds a lot more complicated with the light mover to be honest, but this would be a good way to put the theory to test. If the plants do have a "waking up period" and if you used a light mover the way we are talking about it seems the plants that are on the far end of the room (the ones that get intense light at the end of the day) would be bigger or more healthy than the ones getting it first thing in the morning.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 18, 2011)

And yes this would be a good way to do it in my situation since I can't have 3 or 4 lights.


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## mccumcumber (Dec 19, 2011)

Well you have your light dimming at the very end as well. So long as you have good reflection in your room you ought to be fine.
Edit: yeah, 3 or 4 lights wouldn't be cost effective either. Instead of spinning your plants, you could just spin the light, apparently that's super beneficial as well. I have no idea how or why spinning a plant would benefit it.


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## thousanaire (Dec 21, 2011)

cool idea. wouldnt a light mover do a similar thing


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 21, 2011)

mccumcumber said:


> Well you have your light dimming at the very end as well. So long as you have good reflection in your room you ought to be fine.
> Edit: yeah, 3 or 4 lights wouldn't be cost effective either. Instead of spinning your plants, you could just spin the light, apparently that's super beneficial as well. I have no idea how or why spinning a plant would benefit it.



Its very simple. First of all you have to understand that Im talking about vertical lighting. Check out the vertial board for example of what vertical lighting is all about, basically you have a light suspended on chains hanging at half the height of your plants and the plants are positioned in a circle around the bulb, theres no hood, so you have 360degrees of light and plants all around that light getting lit on the side. Its very efficient and produces impressive GPW. The idea is very simple, you have those plants positioned around the vertical light just as you would in a normal vertical grow. Each plant sits on a base that has a bearing and a motor and it rotates slowly, I imagine 1 revolution every 15 seconds would be a very good speed. Its exactly like a chicken swarma rotisserie you see at greek shawarma stands. I live in Canada, not sure where you live but if youve ever heard of Sammy Souvlaki you will know what im talking about. Its very simple so I hope that explains the concept. It could significally increase your GPW, I imagine a sativa topped above the second node and supported upright by a tomato cage would be an ideal plant to use this setup with. I need to work on my prototype spinning platform as it is very noisy and I cant use it because of this. 

Im not sure where you got the idea that spinning the light would do anything? unless you mean putting it on a light mover that has a circular track... that may do some good as it will allow light to hit the plant from many angles. 

I hope that makes more sense now. If not I will find a picture of a shawarma rotisserie and youll understand


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## mccumcumber (Dec 21, 2011)

I know what vertical lighting is, I've done a few runs of it myself... Are you scrogging, cause that's the way to go for vertical. It will take away your need to rotate your plants, and your yield won't suffer, if anything it will increase. You also don't want to start moving your plants around during flowering. I know theoretically it sounds like a good idea, but practically it's just a haven for a shit ton of problems.

If you have a separate veg room then you can take cuttings that have only been vegged for a week or less and make multiple layers in your vert room. It's the most efficient way to go, and your utilizing the FULL POTENTIAL of your vertical lighting, rather than just having a bunch a plants on the ground.


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## Flo Grow (Dec 21, 2011)

*Interesting Blunt Master Flex !

For the record, my current grow has been on 11/13 (on/off) since Day 1 of Bloom.
Today is Day 26.
Never done anything but 12/12, so I am trying something new for the entire grow.
Plus I save 56 - 63 hours of light/money, depending on an 8 or 9 week Bloom.
Another thing, where in the world does the sun actually go 12/12 ?
That was my thought when I started 11/13, which is more realistic.
*


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## mccumcumber (Dec 21, 2011)

Also, I just read about the spinning light thing, apparently it creates spherical lighting that closely represents the sun...

If you're not into scrogging, but you're into gpw heath robinson is someone you ought to check out. He's the reason why I did a vertical lighting grow in the first place. I found his thread a year ago and I was amazed.
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical.html

It's a lot of work, but thats the best gpw I have ever seen.
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical-21.html
^that's the flowers at week 6, page 24 has the final harvest. He got 46 ozs off of a 600 watt hps. I didn't even think that was near possible. I know I'll probably never get anything close to that, but it's definitely something to strive towards.


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## Flo Grow (Dec 21, 2011)

*But Heath didn't grow 1 plant using 1 600w HPS for that yield.
Shit was/is impressive nonetheless and part of my fav threads too !!
*


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## mccumcumber (Dec 21, 2011)

I know, he also has a thread where he only grows two, but he switched to lots o plant method to increase gpw.

If you have some patience and veg out your one plant then you'll be way happier. Especially if your new mom has some good genetics. Growing trees is way more fun, and I prefer it, but it's less efficient.

If you are dead set on one plant then veg that shit for a while and have it fill out a huge screen. That would give you maximum benefit as well.

Edit: I think the sun goes 12/12 along the equator and areas near it?


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## Flo Grow (Dec 21, 2011)

*Right you are, MC !
You see my avatar right ! lol
*


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## mccumcumber (Dec 21, 2011)

Haha I just read it... fuck yeah!


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 21, 2011)

I wont deny that managing a spinning plant would be difficult, thats why I suggest it only be used for plants that are not being bushed out and growing tall and thin, such as a sativa, topped once or twice would still give you a good a good profile, at least in theory. To find out just how doable this might actually be, I would have to try it. This is my first grow however so I think Im going to stick to proven methods for now. Ive heard alot about this heath robinson, i will check out his thread as soon as im done typing this. Also you could do many plants around one bulb, but that would not be suited to my strain as it will likely stretch in flower to an absolute minimum of 3 feet even if its only vegged to a few inches. Because of the tall profile of the plant it will make good use of the light even if it is only 1 plant high and not a stacked vertical setup like you might use with more indica leaning strains. GPW isnt really my goal here, Im looking for good g per plants because I will only have a small number and not going to be doing cloning just yet as I have only 1 room to work with. Im trying to find a good balance between g's per plant and maintain good size and density to the nugs. 

What are some of the problems that would arise from spinning a plant in flower?


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## mccumcumber (Dec 21, 2011)

Really it's just all about being careful. I had a buddy this year who would move his outdoor plants around his backyard so that there was no shad hitting the plants. They fell out of their pots 3 times during the season...
and they still lived amazingly.
I have only seen bad things happen when people move their plants around and that's why i'm opposed to it. When there's a lot of weight on the plant due to the flowers there is more potential for hazard. If you're gonna move your plants be careful!


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 21, 2011)

Ok, I will be careful, every tip helps, as this is my first grow, Ive never even grown a simple houseplant in my life let alone MJ, so far im doing good with my 10 seedlings. 

The plants will be permanently spinning on the platform, once they are on the platform I will not have to lift the pots again for the whole grow. I do foresee some issues with leaning branches bumping into things repeatedly and causing damage to the plants, but this should be manageable with the tomato cage/low gauge metal wire/zip ties, but I dont know for sure. The plants might bush out alot more given the 360 degrees of light and require alot of manicuring/tying back. 

Cmon you must admit it would be cool to see?!


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## mccumcumber (Dec 21, 2011)

Indeed it would lets see it.

edit: when it's up and runnin of course.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 21, 2011)

yes unfortunately I have to find a way to make it run quietly first


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## Indicator (Dec 22, 2011)

20plus said:


> what would really be helpful is automatic dimmers on ballasts. since the sun gets "brighter" towards the middle of the day it would be nice if you could program say 1000w lights to start out at their lowest wattage and gradually increase till "high noon" and then gradually "set" as the sun does. so far as i can tell the closer an indoor grower can get to outdoor conditions the better, from there you could fine tune things like co2 or uvb, whatever your heart desires to produce the best possible environment for a given phenotype


I've thought about this one too. They have such a thing for people with seasonal affective disorder. Research SAD lights. They have some that simulate sunrise and sunset. They can get megabright... I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along who has done this... they can be rather expensive however.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 22, 2011)

Flo Grow said:


> *Interesting Blunt Master Flex !
> 
> For the record, my current grow has been on 11/13 (on/off) since Day 1 of Bloom.
> Today is Day 26.
> ...


Man those saved hours of light go a long way don't they?!?


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 22, 2011)

Some vert setups you really don't need to veg that long to grow a tree. MPBs get explosive growth, DD's got 42+ LBs from 10 plants with a 2 week veg time with this setup.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 22, 2011)

I started an MPB run and ended up getting evicted from my house in the middle of it cause my landlord found out I was growing in the basement. I'm a legal card holder but he didn't care, it ended up being a huge waste of my money. Close to about $10,000...the last pic is of an MPB room up and running, just without plants in there lol.


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## SFguy (Dec 22, 2011)

flo grow said:


> interesting blunt master flex !
> 
> For the record, my current grow has been on 11/13 (on/off) since day 1 of bloom.
> Today is day 26.
> ...


stupid 10 character rule


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 22, 2011)

Wish I still had that basement, then I could try this sunset test out no problem!
Now I'm looking to sell all the equipment pretty cheap compared to what I payed for it all. The A/C unit alone was $4,000


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## Flo Grow (Dec 22, 2011)

SFguy said:


> stupid 10 character rule


*The equator, technically is incorrect.
I was saying it in a general since that 12/12 doesnt happen with the sun like ppl think it does.
Growing 12/12 is not natural for MJ.
The ONLY place in the entire planet that ACTUALLY gets 12/12 is Middle of the Earth in Ecuador !
It is also THE highest point at longitude 0 and latitude 0.
My wife and I were there this Summer and there were no MJ plants around let me tell you.
Too many tourist. lol
So I came with the knowledge that 11/13 is actually more realistic.
Yet even after dropping a very well UNknown fact, someone or ppl will still try to argue against fact and not the hypothesis of 12/12.
I will never do 12/12 again !!
*


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 22, 2011)

wow thats a nice setup, what was that about 42 lb's from 10 plants with a 2 week veg? typo? 42 ounces?

Hey man that sucks about getting caught, I have a landlord too... I really hope I dont get caught, there is a water meter right next to the grow room. There is also a power box that is used by other tenants upstairs in this 2 story house/apt and there is a water heater unit. So hopefully he wont need to go down there at any point. If he does ill get a call 24 hours ahead of time and Ill just go shut everything down and make it look nice. fingers crossed


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 22, 2011)

No typo, 42LBs from ten plants. The biggest plant weighed 5.6 LBs. Let me try to find a link...
Yeah medical Marijuana is fairly new where I'm at and not everybody agrees with it and my landlord happened to be one of those punk bitches.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 22, 2011)

Can't find the link to that exact grow right now, but here's one to a thread where he was trying to do a ten LB plant in his system.
http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/doubleds-10-lb-plant-room-test-29805/
Here's another link, check out post #73. Those are buds grown in RDWC and those plants are nowhere near the size of DD's plants. Hell the plants in this link weren't even grown in a vertical garden.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=7366&page=5


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## doser (Dec 22, 2011)

obviously many people have considered this or at least are willing to discuss the pros and cons. I think some people are willing to spend whatever it takes to grow weed but some of us are concerned about the cost and I believe that this is the impetus of the idea. Saving on electricity could be very significant in a two or three thousand watt grow. I think that the experiment could be done with adding a cfl or floro in addition to your two light 2000 watt setup. 
I would wake up and put them to sleep with the floro only and add one 1000 watt at say 10 am and add the other 1000 at about 11 to three then start backing off to simulate sunset. Sounds like it would work to me and it would save a couple bucks to boot.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 23, 2011)

Wow just went through that DD's thread myself and I had never seen that one! There was a lot of speculation that he wasn't being 100% truthful with his dry weights. I however am one of the people who doesn't think it's impossible. None of the poeple doubting him had any pictures of plants anywhere near the size of his, so how can you say how much a plant weighs if you've never seen one that size? They are comparing his plants to outdoor 10LB plants which isn't a fair comparison, I've never seen buds like DD's on outdoor plants. Talking huge colas that are all calyx's and pretty much no leave.
taking my own thread off topic, but everyone should check out the plants in that link seriously.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 23, 2011)

HOLY SHIT DUDE... I never seen anything like that before... its gotta be his massive DWC setup.. huge root=huge harvest

Couldnt you make a DWC from a 40 gal storage bin you buy for around 20$? I might have to start realling looking into DWC, looks like it has endless limits for what you can do


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 23, 2011)

Thedillestpickle said:


> HOLY SHIT DUDE... I never seen anything like that before... its gotta be his massive DWC setup.. huge root=huge harvest
> 
> Couldnt you make a DWC from a 40 gal storage bin you buy for around 20$? I might have to start realling looking into DWC, looks like it has endless limits for what you can do


I'm not sure of what type of tote you're talking about, but height is a factor normally. If you're growing trees then you want your mini res to be as short as possible as you will have plants over 4 feet tall + the height of the mini res and not only that but in RDWC the mini res's need to be raised above the main res, so they have to be off of the ground a little bit. Also, the tote you buy needs a lid that isn't flimsy or cheap. It needs to be able to support about fifty pounds without caving in.
Just a couple things to take into consideration.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 23, 2011)

Fifty pounds directly in the center of the lid that is.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 23, 2011)

aha  yea good point. I could probably wield up something from stainless steel if I wanted to get really serious, make it extremely wide and short. Im sure Im not the only one wondering where those huge DWC buckets came from. Ill stick with my coco for now, just something interesting to think about


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 23, 2011)

The totes in my pic are just 27 gallon totes from Home Depot. They're rated to hold something like 400 LBs, that's not in the center of the lid though, but either way the lids are tough on those totes. They need to be wrapped in panda film or mylar though, they let quite a bit of light in.
Yeah, I had to go back to coco and smart pots myself


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 23, 2011)

well hopefully the coco/airpot combo will do the trick for me, Ill be using root excelurator(house and garden) throughout, and using 3 gal airpots. Ill be vegging for a while since im topping once, so thatll help give the roots some more time, plus gunna try to keep night-time temps as high as I can to keep the roots warm. Im thinking of getting some 5 gal air-pots. The guy at the hydro store is telling me I wont need them in a million years but... he uses 4 inch pots right through flower, so im gunna go with my gut feeling

back onto topic though, Ill be turning my more red spectrum lights on an hour before the bluer ones and turning them off an hour earlier, during veg, and flower. itll be just the easiest way to mimic sunrise sunset without getting too into it


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 25, 2011)

This article from the well known DJ Short has some good information in it!





*DJ Short - photoperiod and the angle of light* 
[HR][/HR] After many years of first-hand experience breeding herb indoors as well as outdoors, I am of the opinion that the two most influential factors involving phenotypic variation and expression among current indoor herb breeding projects are the photoperiod (hours of light per day) and the angle of light in relationship to the growing plant.

Specifically, I find the single most powerful influence to the Indica dominant phenotype is the traditional 18/6 veggie cycle and 12/12 flowering cycle. The 18/6 veggie and 12/12 flower cycle is an attempt, however poor, to mimic the Indica-producing photoperiod. It is my belief that this light cycle strongly influences for Indica phenotypic expression.

Sativa phenotype characteristics will manifest under a more equatorial photoperiod, closer to a 13/11 veggie cycle and an 11/13 flower cycle. This is the light timing range to use to elicit more Sativa dominant expression from your plants.

As for the exact photoperiod formula that I incorporate into my growing/breeding regime, this will presently remain a trade secret. My advice is to experiment with different photoperiods, keep good notes and pay attention. Avoid the 18/6 and 12/12 photoperiods, while tweaking the times a bit differently with each breeding cycle until more desirable results in the finished product and their offspring are noted. Here's a hint: work in half-hour increments or a little less, and good luck!

Angle of light simply refers to the physical angle of light source the plant is dependent upon for growth. Perhaps the greatest difference between indoor and outdoor environments has to do with the angle of light received by the plant. This is also one of the greatest seasonal differences between the Sativa and Indica producing regions.

Outdoors, the main light source is the Sun, with minor influence coming from nearby reflective surfaces. As a plant grows taller and broader outdoors, that angle of light from the sun changes very little in relationship to the growing plant.

Seasonal changes in angle of light increase the further away from the equator one gets. At the equator there is the least amount of seasonal change in angle of light, only about 20°, whereas at the 45th parallel that change is as great as 45°. At the 45th latitude, the Summer Sun is high in the sky while during early Spring and late Fall the sunlight comes from much lower in the sky. The farther one goes from the equator, the greater the difference in seasonal changes regarding angle of light.

Indoors, the lights typically range from a few inches to several feet from the plant. As the plant grows taller, its physical relationship to the bulb's angle of light changes considerably. Most indoor grow rooms have relatively low ceilings, therefore, raising the bulbs may maintain a similar angle of light early on, but eventually the angle changes. The same differences may be noted among plants directly below the bulb and the plants off to the side of the room farther away from the bulb.

Circular light shuttles tend to emulate the arctic summer and create a confusing signal completely unknown to the equatorial Sativa. Straight-track overhead light shuttles are more conducive to inducing the Sativa phenotype.
*
Many indoor growers try to get their budding plants as close to the light source as possible. Though this may increase bulk production of both bud and trichome, I find that this practice tends to destroy many of the finer aromatic qualities of the herb.

Buds too close to the light tend to express nothing beyond the lower lemon/lime aromas of the fruity spectrum. Sometimes the aroma is no better than a strong chemical/astringent odor and flavor, especially those under High Pressure Sodium light systems. The finer berry flavors tend to favor more distance from the bulb, and will manifest more strongly under High Ultraviolet Metal Halide light systems, especially during the latter stages of flowering.*

Something akin to a gymnasium building with high ceilings and super 5000W lights hung far from the growing plants, set at a Sativa-tweaked photoperiod, would be the ultimate indoor grow-op to coax Sativa phenotypes.

*Sweet spot fantasy*

Nothing will ever rival the great outdoor sweet spots for quality cannabis production. Hopefully, someday, somewhere, someone will be daring and lucky enough to get away with re-establishing some of the great genetic lines in their specific region of origin sweet spots.

Equatorial Sativa varieties are of interest for quality herb production (Thailand, Oaxaca, Colombia, Central Africa, etc.) as the Indica zones are more renowned for hashish production. Parts of Nepal tend to produce both excellent hashish and fine Sativa buds, with some plants reportedly living longer than two years!

I hope that I am able to live long enough to once again experience the joy associated with the fine herbal products from the great regional sweet spots of near ancient lore. It has been a long time and I am looking forward to the day.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 25, 2011)

This is interesting.
From what he has observed, the buds farther from the lights tend to lean towards the berry spectrum of taste, whereas the closer to the light the more citrus tasting they are. And also he talks about using light to get strains to express certain phenotypes. So, maybe healthy plants isn't the main thing to gain from "mocking" the sunlight, but more using light to mimic the region from which phenotype you desire is from.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 26, 2011)

when is the phenotype determined? I imagine if you were growing a sativa dominant, you would want to mimic indica lighting to allow you to grow a shorter thicker plant for the indoors. Do you think the different lighting angles and photoperiods would effect the qualities of the smoke or only of the morphology of the plant? 

This article/post answered alot of questions as well as bringing up a bunch more. 

I think the reason that having your lights very close to the bud takes away from the aroma, is simply that the extra heat acts to volatize the finer essential oils that the flowers are producing. I imagine you could grow under very intense/close light for the entire grow and then during the last week of flower simply pull the lights back a bit and bring the tempuratures in the room down. Let the aromatic oils build up right before harvest and youll have a very nice product. I like the reference to using blue MH lights during the finish of flowering. I was thinking of doing that using 10000K MH bulbs during the last 2 weeks of harvest, to ripen up the buds. the 10000K are sold as fruit ripening bulbs, Im not sure if thats something I should be doing on cannabis or not? I am only guessing he was refering to the 10000k when he said High Ultra Violet MH.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 26, 2011)

Thedillestpickle said:


> when is the phenotype determined? I imagine if you were growing a sativa dominant, you would want to mimic indica lighting to allow you to grow a shorter thicker plant for the indoors. Do you think the different lighting angles and photoperiods would effect the qualities of the smoke or only of the morphology of the plant?
> 
> This article/post answered alot of questions as well as bringing up a bunch more.


From what he is saying, if you take a sativa dominant plant and mimic it's "Sweet Spot" then this plant will be the best quality it possibly can be indoors. I don't know if it's in the post above but I do recall reading one of his articles that said a plant grown in it's actual "Sweet Spot" (he is referring to spots on the globe from which the strain is from) will be better quality then you could possibly make it indoors.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 26, 2011)

And yes the phenotype question is a good one.
According to him, I could take two clones from the same plant and grow them under different conditions. And these two plants with the same DNA will express different phenotypes.
Pretty interesting


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 26, 2011)

Well I have seen examples of two plants with the same dna looking completely different, one of my favourite thread on RIU is the Kali Mist strain review by hobbes who shows you his DWC single cola Kali Mist in a picture standing next to his coco 4 cola Kali Mist. I am assuming both these plants come from clones of the same mother, but I could be wrong. Anyways two plants look completely different. Im not sure you would want to mimic the "sweet spot" of a true sativa indoors. not unless you have a 20 foot ceiling that is... I am interested in high quality but I think I have my limits haha


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 26, 2011)

Right, I don't mess with sativas because I don't have the room to grow them correctly.
In that article he says you would want something like a gymnasium with 5000w hung high above the plants and also with a tweaked photoperiod as well.
Can't stand the flower times either.
Did Hobbes top the plant with 4 colas?


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 26, 2011)

Yea he topped it to get the 4 colas. In the photo it looks like its been trimmed for drying already. its 4 sticks covered in bud. and the 1 cola kali is similar, one big ass cola with very little side branching but its fluffy and has big leaves sticking out all over. they are two very interesting looking plants, Heres the link, its post #30 and its the first picture in that post. https://www.rollitup.org/smoke-reports/244210-kali-mist-serious-seeds-2.html They look totally different in my oppinion, and I highly doubt he's growing from seed...

weird if you take a closer look at that plant on the right it really looks like he buried the stems above the node where they branch out at the bottom, so in the picture it looks like 4 plants coming out of the medium. Ive never heard of anyone doing that, probably did it to bring the overall height of the plant down. I was trying to see if he topped once or twice but now i cant see(probably twice guessing by the even canopy of the 4 colas?)

How do you think the dry weight of the two plants would compare? Hobbes hasnt really beed around to answer that question

You can grow sativas indoor though, you just gotta put them in flower really short, that plant on the left went into flower at 5 inches!

Also another note on the original topic of this thread: I just recently read somewhere that when growing white widow its best to drop off the number of daylight hours near the end of flower(this would definately be mimicking nature). It suggested bringing it down from 12 hours to 8 hours during the last 2 weeks of flower, claiming that this would bring out even more white trichromes and make the buds that much more resinous. I dont see why this couldnt work with all strains? But the ever present threat of MOLD makes me a little scared. 

I might be growing some White Russian soon!(AK47xwhite widow)


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## Blunt Master Flex (Dec 27, 2011)

You can top once to get four colas, just leave the bottom four branches and take the rest off.
Really hard to tell from pics but I'd guess the one in DWC was a little heavier. Not really a fair comparison because it looks more healthy too.
I've heard of bringing the photperiod down a little at the end to trick your girls into thinking they don't have much time left, so they hurry up and do their thing. I also heard it may bring down the yield a little, but I think it may be worth giving it a shot. My Sweet Tooth doesn't swell much in the last week, I may try this on her this time around.


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