# Water Cooled Grow Rooms



## phillipchristian (Feb 14, 2012)

I wanted to start a thread on water cooled grow rooms. From cooling a tent to a large commercial grow. I've been doing it for a long time and I wanted to share my knowledge and experience with anyone who had questions. I know it's not for everyone and every climate but I am glad to help those out that are interested.


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## phillipchristian (Feb 15, 2012)

*Water Cooling*

Water cooling is a relatively new technology in the grow room. Essentially the idea is that by chilling water to low temperatures (45-60 degrees F) you are then able to pass this water through the equipment in your grow room which generates heat. The water will then absorb the heat by passing the hot air through a coil system inside of the equipment or on a separate piece of equipment which is mounted on the air exhaust for that machine. Therefore the air being blown out by that piece of equipment will no longer be hot. Water is a very efficient, all natural, heat absorber. Water has the ability to absorb heat with very little change to its own temperature. Water is also able to retain heat better than most substances. These factors are commonly called a substances heat capacity. On the contrary, air has a very low heat capacity. Think of it this way. Let&#8217;s say it&#8217;s 40 degrees F outside. How long could you walk around with no clothes on before your body started to suffer hypothermia or other debilitating effects? Now jump in a lake that is 40 degrees and see how much quicker you start to suffer. That is why using a chiller is always more efficient (both in energy consumption and cooling output) than using air conditioners. Plus with chillers you never have to worry about Freon and they also are much easier to use in multiple room setups whereas with an A/C you would either have to buy 2 separate units or have dual climates and dampers installed into a condenser unit.

All of that being said it should be pointed out that water cooling is not the most cost effective route for MANY growers. If you are a small scale grow or a beginner then the initial costs of an effective water cooled system may not be worth it. If you are growing in a climate where it is relatively cool or cold for most of the year then it may not be necessary to invest in a water cooled system. The ideal candidate for a water cooled system is a 100% closed environment grower who has multiple heating issues within your space; whether it is your ambient temperature, nutrient reservoir, etc&#8230; This is not to say that these systems do not have benefits for all growers. Water cooled systems can alleviate the need for A/C units, inline fans, ducting, reservoir chillers, etc&#8230;

*Chillers*

Chillers are the essential elements of any water cooled grow room setup. The chiller is used to cool the water that is passing through the equipment in your grow room; be it your lights, a Co2 burner, air handlers, dehumidifier, etc&#8230; Chillers come in a range of sizes and functionalities. They range in size from .1hp (1,200btu) all the way up to 20hp (240,000btu). Chillers are rated the same way that air conditions are; in btu&#8217;s with 12,000btu being 1 ton. Some of the popular chiller brands are Ecoplus, Chillking, and Active Aqua. The smaller chillers (2hp and less) usually require you to purchase a pump(s) and reservoir separately. The pump is then fed water from the bottom of the reservoir and pushes this water to the chiller which it in turn chills the water and discharges it back into the reservoir. Depending on the quality of pump you have you may then use the same pump (if it has a high enough rating and multiple ports) or another pump to push water from the reservoir to the equipment you are cooling in your room. The larger chiller systems (3hp +) will usually have built in pumps and reservoirs.

There are a bunch of useful formulas to calculate how to size the chiller for your garden. In my experience none of them work because there are just too many factors involved. You have to factor in the ambient temperature outside, number of lights; how you will be cooling the lights; what other equipment you are using that is being water cooled and equipment not being water cooled; etc&#8230; The ideal situation would be for you to water cool all equipment which emits heat that is inside of your room. A lot of growers (myself included) who are looking into water cooling for the first time do not take the full plunge. My first experience with it was a small 2hp chiller which I used to cool 4 1000w hoods and a Co2 generator. Since then I have moved onward and upward to larger scale operations with 10hp chillers in which all our equipment is water cooled. There are some general calculations you can make though. Starting with your room; assuming that you just wanted to cool a space that had no equipment in it and that your ceiling were 8-9&#8217;, that the outside temp never got over 100 degrees and that the room was well insulated. Assuming all of this you would use approximately 4,000btu to cool every 100sq.ft. of space. Basically the same way you would size an A/C. So a space of 300sq.ft would need a 1 ton (12,000btu) chiller in order to cool the air (I will talk later about how you do this). Now for the equipment; you can generally use these calculations for some of the common things you will find in a grow room. Remember; these are just general calculations designed to get you started in the right direction. 


Per 100sq.ft. of Space 4,000btu
1000w HID Bulb 4,000btu
1000w Magnetic Ballast 3,500btu
1000w Digital Ballast 2,500btu
600w HID Bulb 2,400btu
600w Magnetic Ballast 2,100btu
600w Digital Ballast 1,500btu
Co2 Generator 2.5btu Per Cubic Foot
Dehumidifier 30btu Per Daily Pint Rating
Using these calculations will get you started in the right direction when sizing your chiller. My recommendation is always to oversize your chiller should you decide to expand your operation or just to err on the side of caution should your room be warmer than expected.

*Equipment*

You can us a chiller to cool almost anything in your garden that produces heat; and even some things that don&#8217;t. Here I will talk about all of the options on the market now.



Ambient Cooling &#8211; There are several different ways to cool the ambient temperature of your room using a chiller system.
Air handlers can be paired with a chiller to cool your room just like you would use one with a compressor. Air handlers are normally for larger rooms and range in size from 2ton to 5ton.
Heat exchangers can be used as spot A/C units (normally they are uses to cool the exhaust of a hood) and if paired with the right chiller and reservoir temp can provide up to 8,500btu of cooling. They come in both 6&#8221; & 8&#8221;. A heat exchanger has to be paired with an inline fan. They are essentially mini condensers in which cold water is passed through one side of the heat exchanger an fed into a disbursement coil system through which the air from the fan is pushed. Then the water is pushed out of the other side of the heat exchanger by the incoming water. You can also purchase air diffusers for these units which spread the air throughout the canopy or base of the plants.


Hoods & Lighting &#8211; Water cooling has several different designs and methods of cooling the heat created by you HID bulbs and hoods.
Water cooled light fixtures are essentially tubes of glass which are hollow in the middle. Your bulb is placed inside the hollow section and cold water is pumped through the surrounding tube. They are designed to remove the heat generated by your bulb before it goes into your garden. Two of the popular designs on the market are the Fresca Sol and Liquid Lumens.
Heat exchangers can be used to cool the air as it is exiting your hood. They are placed over the exhaust port on your hood and using an inline fan the hot air inside of your hood is then pulled through the heat exchanger which in turn cools this air before exhausting it. From my own experience they are very effective. I have been able to place my face on the glass of a hood using a heat exchanger with a 1000w MH or HPS bulb. They are rated to cool the exhaust heat of a 1000w bulb to ambient room temperature. Two of the popular brands are the Hydro Innovations Ice Box and the generic Ice Flow.
Air handlers can also be used to exhaust the hot air from your hoods. Recently we have been ducting our hoods to the return manifold of our air handler. This is by far the most efficient way to use an air handler in a grow room. It also alleviates the need for purchasing numerous inline fans.


Dehumidifiers &#8211; There are now water cooled dehumidifiers on the market. Essentially a coil has been placed through the dehumidifier which cools the hot air the unit exhausts. When paired with the right chiller and reservoir temperature I have actually seen a 50 pint dehumidifier turned into a 1,200btu air conditioner.

Co2 Generators &#8211; There are a few water cooled Co2 generators available on the market. Of the ones that I have seen all have been liquid propane or natural gas burning. The water is pumped through a coil inside of the generator and used to cool the exhaust air to ambient room temperature.

Ballasts &#8211; There are ballast tubes available which allow you to place you ballast inside of a round enclosure. Cold air is them pumped through the enclosure from one end and exhausted out the other end. They come in both 6&#8221; & 8&#8221;. These are only really necessary if you have to keep your ballast in the grow room. All electronics function more efficiently and will last longer if allowed to operate at cooler temperatures.

Nutrient Reservoir &#8211; By pumping cold water through a coil you can control the temperature of your nutrient reservoir. If you either purchase a resistat and gate valve or just control the pressure of cold water coming in with a simple t-ball valve. You&#8217;ll have to play with it a little to get it dialed in.
I decided to share this information as using water cooled technology has made my growing extremely automated and alleviated all of my cooling problems in a climate where it is 90+ degrees every day.

Feel free to share comments or ask questions.


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## Fnominon (Feb 17, 2012)

Thank you for taking your time to write up such a great post. I have in the past run an entirely water cooled operation at a previous location that did not meter the water. I would run the water to waste and found that I could keep 3k in lights and reservoirs cooled nicely with this setup. Now days I am in a location that meters water and my last water bill was $1200 before I went to AC. Do you believe that running a chiller on a recirculating system is more efficient than a mini-split AC? I am currently running about 5,200 watts in lights with the ballast located outside my grow room and will need a new cooling system by this spring. I was also wondering how much heat those chillers throw off when they are running around the clock and how much noise?


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## Bublonichronic (Feb 17, 2012)

nice, i got 3 1k HPS, i guess a freezer has no chance of cooling them?


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 17, 2012)

Nice post, I started using chillers about a year ago and have stopped using my AC. Someting real important about chillers is they are more efficent than AC at cooling. I have a 1 hp and I cool two res. and my room with 8 1000w. I hooked up a car rad to see how it worked and I sent it out to get hose fitting sodered on to make it permenent. I put an 8" fan to blow through the rad to cool the room, super soloution for sealed rooms. I have an extra chiller now so going to AC the house with another car rad, just going to put it where the filter goes and drill 2 holes for the 1" tubes.[h=2]Why is a chiller more efficient than an air conditioner?[/h]The primary reason for the superior efficiency of a chiller over an air conditioner despite their use of the same internal components is that the thermal conductivity of water is 23 times greater than that of air. What that means is a chiller will exchange the heat in a given space much more quickly than an air conditioner, allowing it to run less to get the same results. This is where you save electricity.With an air conditioner, air is passed over the evaporator instead of water. Since the air is less conductive, the evaporator cant draw out as much heat as it can with water. The chiller evaporator is significantly smaller than an air evaporator because of the increased thermal load of water. In nearly all cases the evaporator in a chiller will be significantly more efficient than that of an air conditioner, again allowing it to run less to get the same amount of cooling.Outdoor chillers used in conjunction with indoor water-cooled air handlers can supply traditional style air conditioning - the difference is that there is water passed between them instead of refrigerant. This type of set-up can be installed by anyone as no refrigeration license would need to be installed. Water lines can run hundreds of feet to a water-cooled evaporator. A/C ducting cannot run for significant lengths as the airflow decreases dramatically with distance. Water is currently used in most large public buildings for heating and cooling, both due to its superior efficiency and because it affords the ability to use one cooling unit for a very large area, whereas several air conditioning units would be required due to the distance constraints involved with ducting.​


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

Bublonichronic said:


> nice, i got 3 1k HPS, i guess a freezer has no chance of cooling them?


I am assuming that you are talking about using the coils from a freezer as your cooling mechanism and using the freezer space as you reservoir. I guess it would depend on the size of the freezer and the temperature you would be able to maintain the water in the freezer. Also, refridgerator and freezer cooling element are not designed to run continously. They would probably burn out rather quickly. Also, like it says above, if you try to use the cold air inside of a freezer to cool the water then you will be disappointed. Air is very inefficient as a cooling element and would not serve to help you cool water fast enough to be worth it if you were using a freezer as you reservoir. You make a modification to your freezer's cooling element and replace it with one you purchase from a plumbing supply store or a HVAC distibutor.


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> Nice post, I started using chillers about a year ago and have stopped using my AC. Someting real important about chillers is they are more efficent than AC at cooling. I have a 1 hp and I cool two res. and my room with 8 1000w. I hooked up a car rad to see how it worked and I sent it out to get hose fitting sodered on to make it permenent. I put an 8" fan to blow through the rad to cool the room, super soloution for sealed rooms. I have an extra chiller now so going to AC the house with another car rad, just going to put it where the filter goes and drill 2 holes for the 1" tubes.


Wow. That's really cool. I never thought of that. That's a lot cheaper then buying an air handler. Nice!! Let me know how the new build works out. Do you ever have any issues with condensation on your lines? I am able to control it inside of my room because we can adjust our temperature and humidity to make the dew point lower in our room. Might be a problem running it into the house. I thought about using a chiller and airhandler in my house too but because of the humidity here it wouldn't work out. Keep me posted.


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

Fnominon said:


> Thank you for taking your time to write up such a great post. I have in the past run an entirely water cooled operation at a previous location that did not meter the water. I would run the water to waste and found that I could keep 3k in lights and reservoirs cooled nicely with this setup. Now days I am in a location that meters water and my last water bill was $1200 before I went to AC. Do you believe that running a chiller on a recirculating system is more efficient than a mini-split AC? I am currently running about 5,200 watts in lights with the ballast located outside my grow room and will need a new cooling system by this spring. I was also wondering how much heat those chillers throw off when they are running around the clock and how much noise?


Hey man, my pleasure. Just wanted to share and contribute to RIU. I have gotten so much info from this site I wanted to give back.

Chillers are definitely more efficient than A/C units. As far as energy consumption goes I believe chillers use 7-9% less energy to cool the same area as an A/C. The chillers that I work with are actually quieter than a condensor for a minisplit system and they don't throw off as much heat. They are just like A/C units in that once your reservoir reaches it's set temperature the condensor will shut down. So if your chiller is sized correctly it is not running all of the time. Maybe 60% of the time max. With a 5200w system you have numerous options when using water cooled systems and could probably get away without having to purchase a water cooled air handler depending on you location. If you need help figuring things out or a contact to get your supplies at a nice discount let me know. Glad to help you figure it out.


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> Nice post, I started using chillers about a year ago and have stopped using my AC. Someting real important about chillers is they are more efficent than AC at cooling. I have a 1 hp and I cool two res. and my room with 8 1000w. I hooked up a car rad to see how it worked and I sent it out to get hose fitting sodered on to make it permenent. I put an 8" fan to blow through the rad to cool the room, super soloution for sealed rooms. I have an extra chiller now so going to AC the house with another car rad, just going to put it where the filter goes and drill 2 holes for the 1" tubes.*Why is a chiller more efficient than an air conditioner?*
> 
> The primary reason for the superior efficiency of a chiller over an air conditioner despite their use of the same internal components is that the thermal conductivity of water is 23 times greater than that of air. What that means is a chiller will exchange the heat in a given space much more quickly than an air conditioner, allowing it to run less to get the same results. This is where you save electricity.With an air conditioner, air is passed over the evaporator instead of water. Since the air is less conductive, the evaporator can&#8217;t draw out as much heat as it can with water. The chiller evaporator is significantly smaller than an air evaporator because of the increased thermal load of water. In nearly all cases the evaporator in a chiller will be significantly more efficient than that of an air conditioner, again allowing it to run less to get the same amount of cooling.Outdoor chillers used in conjunction with indoor water-cooled air handlers can supply traditional style air conditioning - the difference is that there is water passed between them instead of refrigerant. This type of set-up can be installed by anyone as no refrigeration license would need to be installed. Water lines can run hundreds of feet to a water-cooled evaporator. A/C ducting cannot run for significant lengths as the airflow decreases dramatically with distance. Water is currently used in most large public buildings for heating and cooling, both due to its superior efficiency and because it affords the ability to use one cooling unit for a very large area, whereas several air conditioning units would be required due to the distance constraints involved with ducting.​


Thanks for adding that. Very good info.


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 17, 2012)

I run my humidity at 60 to 65% 24/7 and the odd time I get a little condensation but I have a lot of fans blowing, I also have a EDPM liner in the room (like a big swimming pool that's 18" deep) so I don't care if water drips on it. My fans in the winter drop a lot of water on the floor whrn temps get real cold 15 below, I don't have them insulated.

I have 405 gal in the room so a flood is real bad. Happened once with 90 gal. Never again.

My room eats up humidity, I have 2 x 25 gal humidifiers hooked to there own res of RO water and I put auto feed on both of them.


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## Bublonichronic (Feb 17, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> I am assuming that you are talking about using the coils from a freezer as your cooling mechanism and using the freezer space as you reservoir. I guess it would depend on the size of the freezer and the temperature you would be able to maintain the water in the freezer. Also, refridgerator and freezer cooling element are not designed to run continously. They would probably burn out rather quickly. Also, like it says above, if you try to use the cold air inside of a freezer to cool the water then you will be disappointed. Air is very inefficient as a cooling element and would not serve to help you cool water fast enough to be worth it if you were using a freezer as you reservoir. You make a modification to your freezer's cooling element and replace it with one you purchase from a plumbing supply store or a HVAC distibutor.


if i wanted to make the modification to the freezers element, how much would that cost? and what would i need?


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> I run my humidity at 60 to 65% 24/7 and the odd time I get a little condensation but I have a lot of fans blowing, I also have a EDPM liner in the room (like a big swimming pool that's 18" deep) so I don't care if water drips on it. My fans in the winter drop a lot of water on the floor whrn temps get real cold 15 below, I don't have them insulated.
> 
> I have 405 gal in the room so a flood is real bad. Happened once with 90 gal. Never again.
> 
> My room eats up humidity, I have 2 x 25 gal humidifiers hooked to there own res of RO water and I put auto feed on both of them.


Sweet setup man. That would suck if 405 gallons flooded. You'd need a canoe.  I used to get a little condensation on my older system too; it's nothing to worry about. Now we have a system with 2 different reservoirs running at different temps. We keep the water for the air handlers at 45 degrees and the water for the feeder manifolds at 60 degrees. The air handler lines are fed tight into the back of them trough the wall so i get no condensation from them in my room.


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

Bublonichronic said:


> if i wanted to make the modification to the freezers element, how much would that cost? and what would i need?


I am not really sure. I have never done it. I started off by purchasing a 2hp chiller. I know it's not expensive (a lot cheaper than a 2hp chiller) but I really couldn't tell you what you would need. Try a search in DIY Chillers.


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## Bublonichronic (Feb 17, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> Nice post, I started using chillers about a year ago and have stopped using my AC. Someting real important about chillers is they are more efficent than AC at cooling. I have a 1 hp and I cool two res. and my room with 8 1000w. I hooked up a car rad to see how it worked and I sent it out to get hose fitting sodered on to make it permenent. I put an 8" fan to blow through the rad to cool the room, super soloution for sealed rooms. I have an extra chiller now so going to AC the house with another car rad, just going to put it where the filter goes and drill 2 holes for the 1" tubes.*Why is a chiller more efficient than an air conditioner?*


i thought hydro innovations claimed you needed atleast 1/4 hp per 1000w to cool efficently, seems like your using about half that... i would just get the chiller for 500$ if a 1/4 hp will cool my 3 lights, but figured i would need atleast 3/4 hp, maybe 1 hp


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

Bublonichronic said:


> i thought hydro innovations claimed you needed atleast 1/4 hp per 1000w to cool efficently, seems like your using about half that... i would just get the chiller for 500$ if a 1/4 hp will cool my 3 lights, but figured i would need atleast 3/4 hp, maybe 1 hp


I am positive a 1/4hp chiller won't cool your lights. You'd probably have to buy a 1hp chiller, pump, reservoir, tubing, etc..


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 17, 2012)

here you go, that will be ten dollars


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## Bublonichronic (Feb 17, 2012)

thats actually what i modled mine after, only i got a 5cubic ft deep freezer capable of gettin down to -30F, ahha, dont work so well


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## jarvild (Feb 17, 2012)

I run a water chiller a little differently. i burried my cooling coil 3' in the ground. 55 deg water out of coil year round. no need to mess with ice or fridge. Only problem is keeping humidity down.


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## Fnominon (Feb 17, 2012)

I am seriously entertaining the idea of setting up a recirculation cooling system again since I already have all the piping needed and probably an adequate reservoir. The only issue I have is the price on a chiller that would fit my needs for over 5k watts. I am also considering stepping up to a 8k system in the future so I should probably size appropriately. If I use the rule of a 1/4 hp for each 1k light then that would require a 2 hp chiller that would cost more than a mini-split sized appropriately. I can see if you use geothermal cooling that the efficiency would go up considerably, but if planning just to use the chiller for cooling is it really any more efficient than a mini-split? I understand all the other advantages over using water vs refrigerant, but if power bill and up front cost are all that matter I am still on the fence.


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## Fnominon (Feb 17, 2012)

This conversation has already been debated before, I think this thread has some valuable insights:
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/334473-c-vs-icebox-water-chiller.html


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

Fnominon said:


> I am seriously entertaining the idea of setting up a recirculation cooling system again since I already have all the piping needed and probably an adequate reservoir. The only issue I have is the price on a chiller that would fit my needs for over 5k watts. I am also considering stepping up to a 8k system in the future so I should probably size appropriately. If I use the rule of a 1/4 hp for each 1k light then that would require a 2 hp chiller that would cost more than a mini-split sized appropriately. I can see if you use geothermal cooling that the efficiency would go up considerably, but if planning just to use the chiller for cooling is it really any more efficient than a mini-split? I understand all the other advantages over using water vs refrigerant, but if power bill and up front cost are all that matter I am still on the fence.


If you get your chiller dialed in and sized correctly it would reduce your electricity costs by about 10% as opposed to a mini split. The bad news is that at 8k watts you would need a larger chiller than 2hp. Remember that formula is only in addition to your ambient cooling. Just assuming you have have 8k in a 10'x20'x8' room. You would need 2hp of chilling just to cool the lights. You would also have to cool the room, the exhaust from your dehumidifier, any ballasts you have in the room, and the exhaust from your Co2 generator. So lets say you have your digital ballast in the room, a 70 pint dehumidifier (that isn't water cooled), and a Co2 system (that isn't water cooled).
-32,000btu to cool your lamps
-20,000btu of cooling for your ballasts (this is really about half if you are using the new ballast models that run much cooler). So let's say 10,000btu
-8000btu to cool the ambient temperature or space of the room.
-2100btu to cool the exhaust given off by your dehumidifier.
-4000btu to cool the exhaust given off by your Co2.
So basically you would need 66,000btu of cooling. A 5hp chiller. This is a rough guideline but it is always better to oversize these systems. Also, everyones room is different and everyones climate is different. Guys growing in cold basements may not need all this. This is from my experience in a very warm climate. It's not cheap by any means but for me it definitely was worth it. I had 2 24,000btu mini splits in my room and it wasn't doing the trick. I started water cooling my equipment (Co2 generator, Nutrient reservoir, etc.) and I purchased a 5 ton air handler and ducted my lights back to its return. My room is perfect right now and has been for 2 years.


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

Fnominon said:


> This conversation has already been debated before, I think this thread has some valuable insights:
> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/334473-c-vs-icebox-water-chiller.html


I read through that thread and there is so much mis information there.

First - water cooling is significantly more efficient than air cooling. With an air conditioner you are passing air over the evaporator. Air has 1/20th the heat capacity (ability of something to absorb heat and maintain temperature) of water. Therefore your air conditioner has to work harder to cool 1 cubic foot of air then a chiller has to work to cool 1 cubic foot of water. With a chiller, water is passed over the evaporator. Water is able to transfer the residual heat to the evaporator and cool itslef much more efficiently.

Second - the main problem is that people go online and see these Ice Boxes or other heat exchangers and think that they will remove all the heat from a room. If you mount an Ice Box with just a fan then it will act like an 8,000btu A/C. When you mount an Ice Box on a hood you are only taking the heat out of your hood. You still have to cool the room and the other equipment.

Third - some of the post in that article are just flat out wrong and have wrong information. If you have an 8,000btu air conditioner and an Ice Box side by side an Ice Box will cool the room much more efficiently. Water passing through the coild is able to suck heat out of the air more efficiently then air passing through the evaporator coils on an A/C. Also, Greenspace says that A/C units are much better for medium to large ops when in reality the larger your op the more cost effective and efficient water cooling is. Mainly because the costs become more comparible with those of A/C units.

Fourth - Water cooling is expensive and the technology is still being developed; but so is LED technology and plenty of guys are experimenting with that. There are very practical applications for using water cooled technology. In your example of an 8k room you would probably need 2 24,000btu A/C units to cool that room. If you vented your lights then maybe less but you'd be buying more inline fans. In my case we prefer to have absolutely no in/or out vents whatsoever. Not even our lighting. A lot of commercial growers are moving this direction. Called closed environment agriculture. With a chiller you are able to do this; completely seal your room and control all of the ambient temperatures in your space. Plus chillers give you an option of controlling your reservoir temps as well.


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 17, 2012)

Well said, things change.

As for being debated, we were just sharing info and every topic has been covered on RIU a billion times so what was your point?


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## phillipchristian (Feb 17, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> Well said, things change.
> 
> As for being debated, we were just sharing info and every topic has been covered on RIU a billion times so what was your point?


I don't understand what you are talking about. Go back and read the first 2 posts on this thread. I started it to have an open conversation about water cooling grow rooms. That's what we are doing. And not everything has been covered on here a billion times. There aren't any threads about this right now. There are a few about heat exhangers but nothing about water cooling in general. Plus there are new technologies every day in the grow world. So that means everyday there's something new for someone to talk about if it interest them. If you already know everything then why are you here?


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## woodsmaneh! (Feb 18, 2012)

Fnominon said:


> This conversation has already been debated before, I think this thread has some valuable insights:
> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/334473-c-vs-icebox-water-chiller.html



I was talking about this comment.

As I said things change = always good to talk about new things

everything has been talked about a billion times = most every question on here has been answered so many times (but there are always exceptions)

For you to presume I know everything is quite flattering but very far from the truth.

I have been here answering questions for 4 years and you been here 6 months, read between the lines boy, I'm here to support you and learn, not insult you.

It's a nice day out, seeya


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## Fnominon (Feb 18, 2012)

I believe you know what your talking about phillipchristian, you speak as if you have done the real life experimentation. Right now ironically I got a phone call from my property management about my water bill being oddly high and they are demanding to inspect my place for leaks. My house and the neighboring rental house are on the same water bill so I do not think all of the increase is from me alone, but I still feel that moving my operation is a must to prevent any drama. Anyone have any good advice on moving a 5k operation with average plant being probably 5 feet in height? I have everything covered legally, but I am coming up to a lease renewal and I really do not want to be forced in relocating quickly. I really want to move out into the country where I do not live in such high density with 3 neighbors directly overlooking my house.


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## nixusr (Feb 18, 2012)

How loud are the 1hp chillers?


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## phillipchristian (Feb 18, 2012)

Fnominon said:


> I believe you know what your talking about phillipchristian, you speak as if you have done the real life experimentation. Right now ironically I got a phone call from my property management about my water bill being oddly high and they are demanding to inspect my place for leaks. My house and the neighboring rental house are on the same water bill so I do not think all of the increase is from me alone, but I still feel that moving my operation is a must to prevent any drama. Anyone have any good advice on moving a 5k operation with average plant being probably 5 feet in height? I have everything covered legally, but I am coming up to a lease renewal and I really do not want to be forced in relocating quickly. I really want to move out into the country where I do not live in such high density with 3 neighbors directly overlooking my house.


Thanks man, I appreciate the comment. I have been tinkering around with water cooled gardens for a while and I've learned a lot. Still got a lot to learn though.

That sucks about your spot man. Not sure what to do in that case. Never had to move 5 footers. Can't be easy. My only guess would be to rent a Uhaul truck and do it like that. If you do it then good luck man.


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## phillipchristian (Feb 18, 2012)

nixusr said:


> How loud are the 1hp chillers?


The only two companies that I know that make 1hp chillers are Chillking and Ecoplus. This is not to say there aren't others; I just don't know who they are. I can't speak for the Ecoplus unit because I have never used one or seen it running but the Chillking unts are pretty quiet. About as loud as the condensor for a mini split. You aonly really hear the fan when it kicks on.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 16, 2012)

Just bumping the thread with all the data loss.


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## woodsmaneh! (Mar 16, 2012)

I have 2 EcoPlus chillers 1/2 hp and 1 hp. Had no issues with them and they work well. I think Sunlight Supply dis continued the 1 hp EcoPlus and now you need to buy the commercial one they sell. I paid 900$ for the 1/2 and 700$ (regular 1200$) for the 1 hp as I knew they were discontinuing them so got it cheap. Should have bought 2 of them.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 16, 2012)

Depends on whether you need them or not.


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## woodsmaneh! (Mar 16, 2012)

I have redundant spares for all my, meters, ballast, lights, water and air pumps ect but no chillers for back up. On the list to do get a 1 hp back up.

The way I look at it, what's the cost of failure, chillers you just can't fine around here easy, they need to be ordered and that takes 5 to 10 days. Rule #1 if shits going to crap out on you it will be when everything is closed. I put money away for stuff like that and buy on sale. I'm fortunate to be able to indulge my hobby of growing, I don't take many holidays and stuff like that so my spare cash goes back into my grow in upgrades and trying different things. I just bought 4 water pumps with venturi and water fracturing impellers I an going to try in my res, investment = $$ most of the time.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 16, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> I have redundant spares for all my, meters, ballast, lights, water and air pumps ect but no chillers for back up. On the list to do get a 1 hp back up.
> 
> The way I look at it, what's the cost of failure, chillers you just can't fine around here easy, they need to be ordered and that takes 5 to 10 days. Rule #1 if shits going to crap out on you it will be when everything is closed. I put money away for stuff like that and buy on sale. I'm fortunate to be able to indulge my hobby of growing, I don't take many holidays and stuff like that so my spare cash goes back into my grow in upgrades and trying different things. I just bought 4 water pumps with venturi and water fracturing impellers I an going to try in my res, investment = $$ most of the time.


Go for it man. Can't hurt. Not that easy for me to back up a 10hp chiller. It's a monster. I have some regular a/c units if it goes down to cool all of the equipment in the rooms. Luckily nothing has happened yet.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 16, 2012)

Hey guys...cool grow journal that an RIU friend has going. Check it out. 2hp chiller, 3000w, Co2, etc...

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/513182-newb-grow-journal.html#post7153220


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## unohu69 (Mar 17, 2012)

great information here phillip. All this is way more than i need right now, but it is good to have read it. I would have never thought about water cooling at all.
i got here from that new grow journal. and was pleasantly surprised this is yours. Any ways, this does lend credibility to your nute program, and with this type of set up id deff be interested to see what you get from a DG grow. anyways, good luck to ya, ill be checking back in.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 17, 2012)

Thanks Unohu, appreciate the +rep. Ordered my Dyna nutes on Wednesday. Looking forward to another experiment. Going to do half and half cause I only have 2 reservoirs and I don't feel like replumbing the tables. I'll hit you up when I'm getting things setup. Sure I'm gonna have a few questions.


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## groovedaddy (Mar 20, 2012)

Wish I had started reading your post a month ago! I appreciate your sharing of knowledge on chiller application. Let me explain my set up and hopefully get some good advice on how to maximize the use of my new chiller. I run a sealed 8x10 flower room with CO2 (bottled) 2-1000 watt lights on rails both currently sucking air from outside and exiting outside. I run 4- 10 site aeroflow chambers each with its own 5 gal bucket for reservoirs (separate reservoirs because I usually run different plant strains in each chamber). The room has a 12000 btu mini split but during the upcoming summer months temps inside will go over 90 degrees and when I went to individual reservoirs the temps inside res jumped to 90+ after a few hours of lights on. So I purchased a 1/4 hp chiller and a 6" Ice Box heat exchanger a few weeks back and then read your post on chillers. Now I'm kicking myself in the ass for not going bigger! Now I'm trying to figure out the best way to utilize what I have. I believe you recommended 1/4 hp chiller for each 1000 watt light, unfortunately I have two 1000 watters. Would I be better served using the ice box to cool the ambient air in room or hook it up to the lights? Also what effect will either scenario have on humidity levels?


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## JJFOURTWENTY (Mar 20, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> View attachment 2072964


*Fuck yes, that^ is $$$ sir!!!*


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## phillipchristian (Mar 20, 2012)

groovedaddy said:


> Wish I had started reading your post a month ago! I appreciate your sharing of knowledge on chiller application. Let me explain my set up and hopefully get some good advice on how to maximize the use of my new chiller. I run a sealed 8x10 flower room with CO2 (bottled) 2-1000 watt lights on rails both currently sucking air from outside and exiting outside. I run 4- 10 site aeroflow chambers each with its own 5 gal bucket for reservoirs (separate reservoirs because I usually run different plant strains in each chamber). The room has a 12000 btu mini split but during the upcoming summer months temps inside will go over 90 degrees and when I went to individual reservoirs the temps inside res jumped to 90+ after a few hours of lights on. So I purchased a 1/4 hp chiller and a 6" Ice Box heat exchanger a few weeks back and then read your post on chillers. Now I'm kicking myself in the ass for not going bigger! Now I'm trying to figure out the best way to utilize what I have. I believe you recommended 1/4 hp chiller for each 1000 watt light, unfortunately I have two 1000 watters. Would I be better served using the ice box to cool the ambient air in room or hook it up to the lights? Also what effect will either scenario have on humidity levels?


Hey groove, thanks for stopping by. 

Sounds like you are doing just fine with what you bought. Adding 2 Ice Boxes to your light probably wouldn't have dropped your temps that much at all. You have the air being pulled through them and exhausted outside so the Ice Box really wouldn't be an improvement over that. You'd just be pumping colder air out your exhaust. Really the Ice Box is meant for completely sealed rooms when use on a hood like that. In your situation this is what I would do. You really need to get a chiller reservoir; something 30 gallons would be perfect. You can make one yourself out of a drum. You just need there to be a fitting at the bottom with a valve to let water out. This way when you hook it up to your pump the pressure will force water into your pump. Try and use either reinforced rubber tubing or solid pvc if you do it yourself. That cheap tubing will not handle the suction from your pump. You need a good pump that has at least a 15ft lift on it. Like a Flotec 1/2hp one. They come with a 1.25" intake port, a 1" exhaust port, and three 1/2" auxillary exhaust ports. Check this thread out; I helped this guy set his system up. He is using that pump and it will give you an idea of what I am saying ( https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/513182-newb-grow-journal.html). Or a good mag drive pump will do it as well (1200gph+). Fill the reservoir with a 70/30 mix of water and propylene glycol. This stuff is cheap and easy to find at any hardware store. It's rv/marine antifreexe and costs a few bucks a gallon. Then just create a manifold out of pvc and pump that water through the manifold, through your equipment, and back to the reservoir in a return manifold. You can find manifold construction blue prints on the Hydro innovations website (http://www.hydroinnovations.com/support.php) under "manifold schematics." If not then you can get those cheap hydro pumps and use one for each piece of equipment. Not sure how they would hold up in the reservoir though if you add the antifreeze to it. But you wouldn't have to worry about putting a port on your reservoir or building a manifold. I would then just use the Ice Box as a spot chiller in the room and use cool coils that you can buy or make out of copper tubing to cool each of your reservoirs to 65 degrees. 

I know that's kind of long winded and may be confusing. Let me know if you need me to explain it better.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 20, 2012)

JJFOURTWENTY said:


> *Fuck yes, that^ is $$$ sir!!!*


Hell ya. It's been a labor of love for almost 3 years. Tweaking it and messing with stuff. Amost 100% automated now. Working on an automated nutrient feeding machine right now. Pain in the ass but I hope to have t done within a month or so. Then I need to test it out for a few weeks with no plants. I'm running the HOLE system from the new AgrowTek controller. Air handlers on seperate temp and humidity controllers, Co2, chiller temps, light schedules, reservoir temps, fans, everything. I even have a VPN so I can check online from anywhere and see all the data up to the minute. Even installed cameras last year. It's fun.


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## groovedaddy (Mar 21, 2012)

Sweet! Sounds like I'm on the right path. I'm using a 35 gallon igloo marine cooler outside room as a res and a mag drive 800gph water pump. Ran pvc though walls, made a manifold and mounted ice box on wall as a spot cooler. Test ran everything last night and all is well. Two questions. I've heard repeatedly not to use copper tubing and the cool coils are about $100 each. How about running thin plastic tubing in each reservoir as heat exchangers? Also my original plan was to completely seal off room and use the ice box to cool air from both lights and exhaust into room. Would that not be as effective as using the ice box as a spot cooler? May try the antifreeze after I'm comfortable with system not leaking.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 21, 2012)

groovedaddy said:


> Sweet! Sounds like I'm on the right path. I'm using a 35 gallon igloo marine cooler outside room as a res and a mag drive 800gph water pump. Ran pvc though walls, made a manifold and mounted ice box on wall as a spot cooler. Test ran everything last night and all is well. Two questions. I've heard repeatedly not to use copper tubing and the cool coils are about $100 each. How about running thin plastic tubing in each reservoir as heat exchangers? Also my original plan was to completely seal off room and use the ice box to cool air from both lights and exhaust into room. Would that not be as effective as using the ice box as a spot cooler? May try the antifreeze after I'm comfortable with system not leaking.


Hey Groove, glad it's coming together for you.

For sure you don't want to use copper in a nutrient reservoir. It can fuck up your plants. They do sell aluminim and galvanized coils which work just fine. As for the thin rubber stuff I have never heard of anyone using it before. Test it out and see if it works. Just keep an eye on it for a while. Not sure of the drawbacks; maybe gotta watch that the pump doesn't pull it closed or that the plastic doesn't start to degrade. But I bet you could find rigid coiling at any HVAC or hardware store.

I think you are better exhausting the lights like you are now. If you completely sealed the room you would need 2-3 more Ice Box, a bigger chiller or an a/c. The Ice Box will remove the heat from one 1000w bulb but you would still need to cool the room with another 1-2 of them. If you sealed it and just had 1 Ice Box as a spot a/c I am pretty sure the temps would get out of control. When I was using Ice Boxes still I had them on every hood and still had to have additional cooling in the room. In the future if you can get a bigger chiller and more Ice Box then I say go for it. Closed Environment is the easiest way to grow in my opinion. Good luck man. Let me know if you need anything.


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## groovedaddy (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks for the help!


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## phillipchristian (Mar 21, 2012)

No problem. My pleasure.


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## budleydoright (Mar 21, 2012)

Buy a stainless wort chiller coil off of ebay for 50 bucks. Made to fit inside a 5 gal bucket.


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## woodsmaneh! (Mar 22, 2012)

the best deal and service anywhere, I get my coils from here

http://www.nybrewsupply.com/wort-chillers/3-8-x-25-stainless-steel-wort-chiller.html


I have the 50' with attached hose ends 3/8 SS, very happy with them.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 22, 2012)

NICE! That's awesome. I'm gonna order a few. Those are perfect for nutrient reservoirs. Way cheaper than the Hydro Innovations ones and much better quality. Plus they have hose connects. Sick. Thanks for sharing bro! +REP


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## groovedaddy (Mar 23, 2012)

Yeah that's way better than the cool coil. Thanks woodsman


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## groovedaddy (Mar 23, 2012)

I could buy one of those, cut it at every 4rth coil, use hoses to attach and have 4 for half the price of one cool coil! sweet!


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

That's a good idea. With shipping and everything might come out to $75.


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## JJFOURTWENTY (Mar 23, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Hell ya. It's been a labor of love for almost 3 years. Tweaking it and messing with stuff. Amost 100% automated now... It's fun.


I've always found the more time and energy invested in projects like this, almost always leads to a reward of getting to sit back and having the work take care of itself for you once everything's up and running. 

No pain, No gain!


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 23, 2012)

Hey Phillip I wanted to put up this image I found a while back about Commercial Systems using Water Cooling on the Lights, We didnt end going this route because basically I didnt think it could get rid of 2 lights of heat and also My room would not have been as adjustable with 32 lights relying soley on our 5 Tons to do the work. I am very interested to actually see a chain or two of your light systems and cooling tank setups if possible!


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

JJFOURTWENTY said:


> I've always found the more time and energy invested in projects like this, almost always leads to a reward of getting to sit back and having the work take care of itself for you once everything's up and running.
> 
> No pain, No gain!


I agree man. 100%. I once told someone I actually like designing the rooms more than growing. I love messing with new technology.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 23, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Hey Phillip I wanted to put up this image I found a while back about Commercial Systems using Water Cooling on the Lights, We didnt end going this route because basically I didnt think it could get rid of 2 lights of heat and also My room would not have been as adjustable with 32 lights relying soley on our 5 Tons to do the work. I am very interested to actually see a chain or two of your light systems and cooling tank setups if possible!
> 
> View attachment 2083979


BUMP For Phillip


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Hey Phillip I wanted to put up this image I found a while back about Commercial Systems using Water Cooling on the Lights, We didnt end going this route because basically I didnt think it could get rid of 2 lights of heat and also My room would not have been as adjustable with 32 lights relying soley on our 5 Tons to do the work. I am very interested to actually see a chain or two of your light systems and cooling tank setups if possible!
> 
> View attachment 2083979


Yea, that diagram is off the Hydro Innovations website. I'm not sure what your point is or how many lights you have. In the diagram they don't have an a/c in the room. They have an Ice Box on every light and they are using 2 of them as spot a/c's. If you were to put an Ice Box on every one of your lights you wouldn't need a 5 ton a/c. Depending on the size of your room you could probably get away with 18,000btu. If you used the water cooling technology to cool your reservoirs, Co2 generators, and dehumidifiers then you might be able to get rid of the a/c all together and just use a few Ice Boxes as spot a/c's. I don't run this exact system anymore. I actually duct my lights back to my back to the return on my water cooled air handler. This actually saves me money from having to buy a dehumidifier and a bunch of fans and Ice Boxes. Water cooled air handlers have the advantage of being more efficient but also they alow you to dehumidify the air without actually cooling it; this is somethin air conditioner can't do. 

Just because we disagreed in another thread and I actually proved you were wrong doesn't mean you need to come here looking to start something. If you wanna see a picture of my room then you post a picture of your "32 Lights" and I'll post a picture of my flower room. If you wanna talk water cooling then great. If you wanna be a wise ass then go away.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 23, 2012)

I was actually asking for advice from you man,, why so hostile??? we didnt think Those chillers could do it. Just wanted someones opinion who says they have... Dam


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 23, 2012)

And actually you were proved wrong in the other thread... BTW


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> And actually you were proved wrong in the other thread... BTW


Don't even try it man. You got clowned in proven wrong in both threads and now you are here to start shit. Chillers are 40% more efficient than a/c units and can easily handle the load of 32 lights if sized correctly. They are pricey but if you think about all the ducting, fans, dehumidifiers, and a/c units you don't have to buy they really aren't that bad. plus they allow you to cool anything that NEEDS to be in your grow room. 

If you want to have a serious coversation about water cooling your grow room then you are welcome to stay. I'm not here to start shit with anyone and if you took offense to me showing someone that your advice was wrong then you need to grow thicker skin.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 23, 2012)

I'm not here to start any shit but I will defend every answer I have ever written, but I'm also not calling you out either.. at least not in this thread...

Just don't take offense when we disagree about stupid things, like wether dehumidifiers put off HEAT.. for the most part you seem to have decent level head, you just are really argumentivive over pennies and the like.

Its cool man, you know some things and so do I, thats why I wanted advice on this subject, I'll look past your bigheadness if you'll look past my smart alec remarks k?


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> I'm not here to start any shit but I will defend every answer I have ever written, but I'm also not calling you out either.. at least not in this thread...
> 
> Just don't take offense when we disagree about stupid things, like wether dehumidifiers put off HEAT.. for the most part you seem to have decent level head, you just are really argumentivive over pennies and the like.
> 
> Its cool man, you know some things and so do I, thats why I wanted advice on this subject, I'll look past your bigheadness if you'll look past my smart alec remarks k?


Fair enough. But just remember that I NEVER said that dehus don't put off heat. I said a 70 pint dehu doesn't put off 12,000btu of heat. If you wanna talk water cooling then I'm all in. It''s hard to find people that wanna talk about it and I love it. I've tinkered around with it for almost 4 years hardcore and I think I have a ton of info to pass along and a ton of stuff to still learn. If you really wanna look into it then I'd be stoked to help you in any way I can. I'll even hook you up with my distributor directly and he'll give you my rates. Their like 15-20% lower than anywhere else because of the volume I do.


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## F A B (Mar 23, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Don't even try it man. You got clowned in proven wrong in both threads and now you are here to start shit. Chillers are 40% more efficient than a/c units and can easily handle the load of 32 lights if sized correctly. They are pricey but if you think about all the ducting, fans, dehumidifiers, and a/c units you don't have to buy they really aren't that bad. plus they allow you to cool anything that NEEDS to be in your grow room.
> 
> If you want to have a serious coversation about water cooling your grow room then you are welcome to stay. I'm not here to start shit with anyone and if you took offense to me showing someone that your advice was wrong then you need to grow thicker skin.


phili hate to say this and hope u dont get mad 
that was yesterday and this is today and today they are asking your advice so give them a chance and if it wasnt a serious plea for advice then shame on them both u could do more good helping then fighting 

i dont care how much i dislike someone if they sent me a pm saying hey bro my plants are sick 
i wouldnt say haha im glad i would put shit aside and get them help 
its called being the better man 

im not calling u out and maybe i shouldnt have posted it but sent pm 
and im not saying i dont have your back peace


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

F A B said:


> phili hate to say this and hope u dont get mad
> that was yesterday and this is today and today they are asking your advice so give them a chance and if it wasnt a serious plea for advice then shame on them both u could do more good helping then fighting
> 
> i dont care how much i dislike someone if they sent me a pm saying hey bro my plants are sick
> ...


I'm all for helping but she didn't ask for help. She never asked a question or anything. Just said she wanted to see pics of my grow room then bumped the thread 20 minutes later. That looked like someone trying to start shit based on our disagreement yesterday.


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## F A B (Mar 23, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> I'm all for helping but she didn't ask for help. She never asked a question or anything. Just said she wanted to see pics of my grow room then bumped the thread 20 minutes later. That looked like someone trying to start shit based on our disagreement yesterday.


maybe u just seen it that way 
most people i argue with end up on my friends list by the end of the day 
winning is not being right its being able to say that was fun but bro lets put that shit aside and smoke the peace pipe and be friends that share a common interest

THATS WINNING

edit they didnt make it clear they wanted help but made it clear in next post 03-23-2012, 03:44 PM #57 *ganjagoddess* 

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[/h]I was actually asking for advice from you man,, why so hostile??? we didnt think Those chillers could do it. Just wanted someones opinion who says they have... Dam​


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

F A B said:


> maybe u just seen it that way
> most people i argue with end up on my friends list by the end of the day
> winning is not being right its being able to say that was fun but bro lets put that shit aside and smoke the peace pipe and be friends that share a common interest
> 
> ...


Agreed. And that's why I posted what I did in post #61.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

You have to remember that I have an ongoing debate with her in 2 different threads where she didn't take to kindly to me proving her wrong. That being said, yes I was defensive when she showed up in a thread in which ALL that I do is share information and try and help people out.


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## F A B (Mar 23, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> You have to remember that I have an ongoing debate with her in 2 different threads where she didn't take to kindly to me proving her wrong. That being said, yes I was defensive when she showed up in a thread in which ALL that I do is share information and try and help people out.


two thing u must know 
1 women always like to argue
2 men are always wrong


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

F A B said:


> two thing u must know
> 1 women always like to argue
> 2 men are always wrong


LMAO! My girlfriend would agree.


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## F A B (Mar 23, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> LMAO! My girlfriend would agree.


oh course she would and her gf would too thats how they roll bro


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 23, 2012)

Much Love to everyone in this thread!!!

And yes I am so Interested in Water cooling right Now Its not funny!! The idea It could even work is amazing and I didnt honestly think it was gonna ever get to the point where you could even have 8 lights in a room all without air cooling, or a riduclous a/c.

I put up that pic because I was hoping you could tell me if thats how you use them or if you do it different, I didnt Even Think it had become a Thing Until you and I first Met in that one thread, and I started looking into all your posts!!!

I have a small space for about 16 lights and I wanted to do a test room in the next couple of months using water cooling, but with so little info on the subject and No pics of any one over 2 lights out there using them Im hoping you can help me out with advice!

Size of resovoirs? Smaller rez's or 1 large one?, pump size per light chiller.
How many chillers per how many lights?? Are you using six/eight inch"fans to blow over the chillers?

Ive got a million questions for you my Friend!!!


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## F A B (Mar 23, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Much Love to everyone in this thread!!!



well there is a little button that when pushed spreads love 
its awesome


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## phillipchristian (Mar 23, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Much Love to everyone in this thread!!!
> 
> And yes I am so Interested in Water cooling right Now Its not funny!! The idea It could even work is amazing and I didnt honestly think it was gonna ever get to the point where you could even have 8 lights in a room all without air cooling, or a riduclous a/c.
> 
> ...


Now we're talking. I love getting into this stuff. 

They make chillers all the way up to 25hp. This would essentially cool 100 lights that are in air cooled reflectors. There are basic calculations on the first page of this thread for sizing a chiller but every environment is different. That picture that you posted is probably an older one. With that many lights in a room you would most likely be using a water cooled air handler. Anything over 6 lights and it's just cheaper to buy the air handler then to get all those Ice Boxes, fans, manifold lines, etc... In my room I actually ducted my lights back to the return on my air handler. They make specific plenums for the air handlers to accomodate 6" or 8" ducting. Ice boxes are really made for smaller applications. They are still extremely efficient but at $180 a pop after 4 or 5 of them why not just get an air handler for $1500. Water cooled air handlers rang from 1 ton to 5 ton.

Chillers now come in a few different styles and many different sizes. For 16 lights (1000w) you would need a 4hp chiller just to cool the lights assuming you were either exhausting the hoods back to the air handler or out of the room. If you have ope hoods or exhaust them back into the room then double that. Then you have to factor in the ambient room temperature that needs to be cooled. Roughly 40btu per square foot. Obviously this is different if you live in the Mojave and are growing in a tin shack with your light cycle from 8am to 8pm. But it's a good place to start. So if you had 500sq.ft then you would need to add an additional 1.5hp to your chiller. Know, getting a chiller without taking advantage of some of the other benefits would just be worthless. You can use them to chill your nutrient reservoirs, cool the exhaust on your dehumidifiers, and even provide Co2 with no extra heat to your room. The idea behind the most efficient water cooling is to remove ALL of the heat from your grow room and then you are left just cooling the ambient temperature. Now you could but an Ice Box on every light, and use the manifold to cool your Co2 generator, dehumidifier, reservoirs, ballasts, etc. This would remove all of the heat from your room except the ambient temps. Then you would just need a 4-5hp chiller and you could cool the room with wahtever existing a/c you have.

The water cooled air handlers are fantastic. They actually can be equipped with heating elements if need be and have a few HUGE advantages over A/C units. 1 is that they are much more efficient. They will actually work about 40% less than a similar sized air conditioner because water has 4 times more thermal conductivity than air. The other great thing is that for an air conditioner to dehumidify a room it has to be running. This created problems because during the lights off cycle most a/c's aren't running but you still need dehumidification in your room. Water cooled air handlers can actually continue to dehumidify without cooling the air in your room.

The whole system runs obviously around the chiller and that is the heart of the operation. They can be wired single phase or 3 phase. The commercial ones can be split into 2 units with the condensor seperate from the compressor. I really don't see the application for this but I guess if you wanted your system to be slightly more efficient by placing your compressor inside of your grow then that would be an option. They also make compressorless units that are designed for people in cooler climates (you need your outside air temp to never really get over 65). For now we'll talk about the commercial units. If you are using their air handlers and taking advantage of the other cooling options (dehumidifiers, resevoir coil, etc...) then you will need a unit that has dual tanks and dual pumps. Because your air handlers are hanging on the wall they are able to be fed directly from the chiller with colder water then the water being run through the manifold line into your grow room. I have 1 tank set to 45 degrees for my air handlers and another set to 60 degrees for my manifold line that feeds my reservoir cool coils, the dehumidifier in my drying room, my Co2 generators, and a few Ice Box I have around just because I had them left over. You can duct the air handlers just like you would the one in your house but with your flower room needing a lot more air sometimes it's better just to duct the cool air back onto the plants in your flower room and use Ice Boxes for the other areas. Or you could probably duct it to adjustable vents and figure out a way to restrict airflow or buy electronic damper vents linked to a thermostat in that area. Anyway, then my manifold line runs from the other reservoir to my water cooled equipment. The reason you need two seperate reservoirs is because 45 degree water running through PVC in your grow room will create a lot on condensation that you'll have to clean up. All of the commercial chillers you see have self contained pumps and reservoirs. No need to purchase these as they are built inside the system.

I hope this helps. Keep the questions coming. If you give me the information on your space (dimensions, doors, light sizes, windows, where you would place the chiller, what other equipment you will have in the room, will you be getting cool coils, water cooled Co2, etc...) then I can draw up a floorplan for you and give you a list of what you'll need.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 24, 2012)

Wow that is some good info, Gonna take me a minute to disect everything you said.. I will be back with questions... +rep


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## phillipchristian (Mar 24, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Wow that is some good info, Gonna take me a minute to disect everything you said.. I will be back with questions... +rep


Thanks Ganja. I'll be here to answer any questions you have. I probably missed a ton in that description but as you wrap your head around it it gets a lot easier to understand.


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## TahoeOGRLWC (Mar 24, 2012)

So Phil do you use an actual tube with glass and water in it? Or do you just use a Icebox type deal? I have been running water cooled lights since 98. Back then the bulb actually sat in water!! The new tubes are much better design and really like how they work. This is a great thread. Hope everything works out well for you on this project.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 24, 2012)

No hes talking about Industrial Water Chillers, not icebox's or fresca sol's. I think

I'm looking for them online found a few not sure if I'm in the right place or not for them though or if these are what you talking about

http://www.hydrowholesale.com/Water-Chillers-and-Heaters/ChillKing-Self-Contained-Chiller-5-HP3-Phase.asp?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=comparsionshopping&aff=5108

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=water+cooled+air+handler&hl=en&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1777&bih=887&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=8940675266733328148&sa=X&ei=1ThuT_3EHaeW2gXn3JnyAQ&ved=0CKcBEPMCMAQ

5HP ones for 7K!! wow! maybe you know where to find them alittle cheaper. I am very much focusing on the Commercial ones and have no problem splitting the units condenser to the roof of the building.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 24, 2012)

TahoeOGRLWC said:


> So Phil do you use an actual tube with glass and water in it? Or do you just use a Icebox type deal? I have been running water cooled lights since 98. Back then the bulb actually sat in water!! The new tubes are much better design and really like how they work. This is a great thread. Hope everything works out well for you on this project.


Hey bud, thanks for stopping by. I've never used the Fresca Sol or Liquid Lumens products. I have seen the application but the technology just seemed a little strange to me. I have used Ice Boxes before as my primary cooling method and also to cool my lights but once you get over 5,000w it's more efficient to get a water cooled air handler and actually duct the air from your hoods back to the return on your air handler. This is what I have been doing for a while. I still have a few Ice Box around the rooms just because I had them laying around from previous grows. I use them just to take some of the load of my air handlers. Air handlers are less efficient then chillers so it probably saves me a little money every month in electricity.

Glad to have you bud.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 24, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> No hes talking about Industrial Water Chillers, not icebox's or fresca sol's. I think
> 
> I'm looking for them online found a few not sure if I'm in the right place or not for them though or if these are what you talking about
> 
> ...


Hey Ganja...Yea, that is pretty much the listed price for that chiller from Chillking. I go directly through their distributor and can probably get you 15-20% off of that. Having the seperate condensor and compressor actually increases the price. Chillking make the compact model and a commercial model. They are basically the same with one having a slimmer design. I'm not sure about that air handler or the capabilities of it. I would look into the Chillking air handler if you are getting their chiller. They are basically quick connect hookups and the Chillking model has the bypass coil that allowys you to dehumidify without cooling. Whatever list price you see then you can bet on getting 15-20% off of that. Maybe more depending on the total size of your order.


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## TahoeOGRLWC (Mar 24, 2012)

Sweet, Ya not a fan of the Liquid Lumens set up but I am familiar with the FS. The FS is a good set up and only complaint is the grommet is hard to get apart after a run or two. But then again I guess it is better than the old ones. The first units I had were from Germany and you had to set the bulb in with gasket sealer. It was pretty freaky to be honest to set up the bulb in the water!! I still say that light that travels thru water puts out something different! Not sure how to explain it but really I don't care....lol If the ladies like it...and the numbers are lower with air-cooled....then it seems simple to me...On the last go around I was using a 1000w FS with no chiller and a 600w air cooled (but didnt have any ducting to it) and from 4 ladies got just over 1100 dried and left the small pieces out. That was with 4 weeks veg and 8 weeks flower.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 24, 2012)

Ok so .1hp=`1200BTU so 5HP is about 6 TON... Really barely enough to cool 16 lights... Id be better off with a 10HP as it would give me room to play and cool ambient as well as other things.

So just basically your saying hook it straight inline in a closed loop light system? I take it you have a a/c as backup/control in the room also?

My costs are looking a bit high with this option but it is def impressive and very straightforward.

The fresca sol at $250 a hood or $180 a icebox is still only 4-5k plus all addons, whereas this kinda starts at 10kish.. For 16 lights.

Its tough because when I first was presented with Water Cooling options we had:

Water cooled A/C's
Fresca Sols
IceBox's

I didnt think the FS or IB's could actually handle the heat from a 1000W bulb and we played with them for a while, but they basically still need venting or accesories that make water cooling kinda more of a unnesacary pain.

Does anyone know If Frescas can handle 8 1000W lights in the same room without too much more than 14kBTU of additional cooling? Assuming they are paired with good chillers.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 24, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Ok so .1hp=`1200BTU so 5HP is about 6 TON... Really barely enough to cool 16 lights... Id be better off with a 10HP as it would give me room to play and cool ambient as well as other things.
> 
> So just basically your saying hook it straight inline in a closed loop light system? I take it you have a a/c as backup/control in the room also?
> 
> ...


Not sure I am understanding you but 1hp = 1 ton = 12,000btu. Depending on how you cool the lights will determine which equation you use to factor the chiller size. If you cool each light with an Ice Box it is different then if you vent the lights directly back to your air handler. When you duct it back to the air handler it's actually more efficient so you factor less tonnage of chiller. 

It's not a closed system. Say you had 4 rows of 4 lights. You would put a fan on the furthest one in that row (4 fans) to pull air from the room and then push it through the 4 lights in that row. At the end of the rows you would have 2 "Y" duct connectors to reduce the ducting lines from 4 to 2 and from 8" lines to 10" lines. Then you would reduce it from 2 to 1 and from 10" to 12" lines. Then you would connect it to the plenum on the air handler. The fans at the beginning of the rows are to help push air through the lights; you don't want to rely on the air handler to pull air through more than 2-3 lights in a row. Then you can duct your air handler how you see fit. I split my ducting so that about 75% of the airflow is ducted to vents that are right overtop of my plants and then the rest of the air goes into a workspace area I have and into the electrical room. Since you can't control the temp in these other rooms without installing electric dampers and a second thermostat (totally an option) I just put them into rooms that it does not matter what the temperature is. You can also control it fairly well with lever vents. 

I don't think you understand the theory totally yet. If you were to put Fresca Sol's or Ice Box on each light you would have to actually buy a larger chiller than just using an air handler becuase it is a less efficient system than the one I just described. If you were to put an Ice Box on each light you would need 4,000btu of chiller for each Ice Box (16 lights x 4,000btu = 64,000btu or 5.5tons of chiller). Now, that being said you would still have to cool the ambient air in the room, the ballasts, dehumidifiers, pumps, etc... So you would either have to get an a/c or you would have to size your chiller bigger and add an air handler. The Ice Box and the Fresca Sol only cool your lights back to ambient room temperature. You could use the Ice Box as spot a/c units but you would need about 6 of them to cool a room that size which means you would need a 7.5hp chiller to run 22 Ice Box. It would cost you $2800 just in Ice Box to put on the lights if you went that route; plus another $1000 to $1500 in Ice Box to cool the room (plus fans, manifold lines, tubing, etc..) and you would need dehumidifiers as well. You can get a 5 ton air handler for around $2,000 and you wouldn't need all the extra fans, tubing, manifold lines, etc... You could get 2 3ton air handlers and a 7.5hp chiller for cheaper than all those Ice Box, fans, etc...Then it would just be a questions as to whether you are going to use the chiller to cool Co2 generators, reservoirs and dehumidifiers in the other rooms (veg, drying, etc..). Either way you go the chiller would have enough capacity to cool those other items.

I would STRONGLY recommend against the Fresca Sol for an application like this. That system is so inefficient when trying to handle large light arrays that you would need to add 25% to your chiller. The water has no diffuser so it is not even near as efficient. Think of it this way...if it was really hot outside and you went out to your driveway with 2 buckets of water. Say you dumped one of them out on the driveway and left the other one in the bucket. Which pool of water would heat up faster? The one you dumber out because you have essentially diffused the water and given it a greater surface are with which to conduct heat. Think of the Fresca Sol as the full bucket of water. It is harder for your lights to transfer heat from the bulb to a full bucket of water.

Check this thread out. It is a much smaller application than yours. This is a friend of mine who I helped setup a system. He has 2 8x8 tents and 3 1000w lights (2 in 1 and 1 in the other). He lives in a VERY warm climate year round. His tents are inside of a tin roof building with no ventilation that is barely big enough to fit the two tents and let someone walk in. On top of that the roof is only about 9' tall and sits in the dead sun for 10 hours a day. He is using 1 Ice Box per hood (3 total) and 1 Ice Box as a spot a/c per tent (2 total) with a 2hp chiller that also cools his nutrient reservoir and 2 Co2 generators. His chiller runs about 20 minutes per hour on average. Check his journal out. He's got TONS of pictures. Trust me, the technology is efficient.

*https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/513182-newb-grow-journal.html*


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 24, 2012)

Thank you for the heads up on the Fresca's, i will trust your opinion and not really count them out as a option.

With that said If I am to go the Chillking route, I have to cut my size in half down to 6- 8 lights to start to prove this concept. Your buddies journal is Awesome and probally the best start I can get as far as seeing one, so thank you!

Ok as to some more questions for you:

so I am assuming there are 2 types here were talking about:

WATER CHILLER with ICE BOX's and smaller fans to move air out of enviroment (The Journal you posted)

Water CHILLER with Air handler. (More like your grow?)

So would it be like this? You describe dumping the air into rooms, so where does your air handler exhaust too? Back to the hoods through the Y system decreasing in size down to 8"?

I'm seeing it Y Into the Intake and then Y back out of the exhaust all running sealed through the lights and throught the air handler attached to the Chiller?


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## phillipchristian (Mar 25, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Thank you for the heads up on the Fresca's, i will trust your opinion and not really count them out as a option.
> 
> With that said If I am to go the Chillking route, I have to cut my size in half down to 6- 8 lights to start to prove this concept. Your buddies journal is Awesome and probally the best start I can get as far as seeing one, so thank you!
> 
> ...


You almost got it. If you do Ice Boxes then you get 1 Ice Box per 1000w light. If you are using 600w lights then you can squeeze 2 lights per Ice Box. On your drawing you would put 1 Ice Box after the second light and then another after the 3rd light. With Ice Boxes you don't need to vent the air out of the room. Just use a fan like you normally would to pull air from the room through the first 2 hoods, then through the Ice Box, through the last hood and through the last Ice Box. Then through the fan and back into the room. No need to exhaust it because it is no longer warm. The Ice Box has cooled it. When using Ice Box to cool lighting you always pull air through them just like a carbon filter. If your lights are in rows too long for 1 fan then you put a fan in the middle but still always have it pulling through the Ice Box. The only time you can push air through one is if you are using it as a spot a/c and there is nothing on the other side of it. This is because if for some reason you have a condensation issue then you're going to end up with water being on your bulbs if you push air through them. In the case of a spot a/c it doesn't really matter because there is not hood in front of it.

As far as the air handler goes you still are a little confused. The air handler is just like the one you see in a home. It has a return to supply air to the heat exchanger inside of it and an exhaust which can be ducted anywhere you want. You do not create a loop with this air. You pull air from the room through your hoods and into the return on the air handler. Then you can either have the air handler exhaust all of that air from 1 port right back into the room or you can duct it throughout the room and have it deliver air evenly to all the corners in the room. You can even duct it to seperate rooms that need cooling.

Something like this:


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## polyarcturus (Mar 25, 2012)

here some wild questions for you phil. you will like this. 

if i convert a standard air conditioner into a chiller with its own fan and exhaust straight out a dryer vent, a rez farther from grow area for chiller unit is guess you would say and it own pump to recirculate water to another res. that has a pump that actually goes to the devices that cool the air and dehumidify and what not. or should i eliminate 2 res es and go with one res and a higher powered pump? also would the condenser from the AC corrode this seems full of holes but seems more feasible for small diyer. i was thinking as large air handler with water cooling would be the most efficient way to use a chiller. water cooling is some interesting stuff i have to say very efficent less ducting and more control over where the heat goes


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## polyarcturus (Mar 25, 2012)

2 res seems better as i could set the pump in the second res to come on only when the heat in the room goes up and another temps sensor to the chiller to tell it to only com on when the temp of the water is up.


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## polyarcturus (Mar 25, 2012)

also how would i go about plumbing an air conditioner in to a self contained chiller. yes i know the danger trust me proper care will be taken its not like im gonna just start right now...


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## phillipchristian (Mar 25, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> here some wild questions for you phil. you will like this.
> 
> if i convert a standard air conditioner into a chiller with its own fan and exhaust straight out a dryer vent, a rez farther from grow area for chiller unit is guess you would say and it own pump to recirculate water to another res. that has a pump that actually goes to the devices that cool the air and dehumidify and what not. or should i eliminate 2 res es and go with one res and a higher powered pump? also would the condenser from the AC corrode this seems full of holes but seems more feasible for small diyer. i was thinking as large air handler with water cooling would be the most efficient way to use a chiller. water cooling is some interesting stuff i have to say very efficent less ducting and more control over where the heat goes


Just go with 1 reservoir. It will be a lot more efficient. Then use a good pump to supply a manifold line. Feed the pump from the reservoir and have it feeding a pvc manifold line. Then run that manifold line into your grow room and everywhere you have a piece of equipment you put a "T" with a bushing and a hose barb adapter. Run tubing from the adapter to your equipment. At the end of the pvc just put a cap. Then you have another pvc that is bigger (3/4" vs 1" or 1" vs 1 1/4") that runs parallel to the supply line. This will also connect via tees and hose barb adapters to the exhaust side of your equipment and bring the hot water back to your reservoir. That's the easiest way to do it. Just 1 pump, pvc, and a few fittings. Plus you can insulate the pvc to make it even more efficient. Just gotta make sure you chiller reservoir water is above dew point or you will have condensation on your manifold lines. If you get a good cast iron centrifuge pump ($75-$100) then you can use it to pump water to the chiller and to the manifold cause those pumps have multiple ports. Chiller comes on when the res temp rises. Not water coming back to the res will make the temps rise. Use thermostat controllers in the room to turn on fans that blow through your heat exchanger when it gets to hot. Water is always running through the manifold. Better to leave the pump running all the time cause waer pumps will burn out easily if made to switch on/off a lot. They will last a lot longer if you just let them run.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 25, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> also how would i go about plumbing an air conditioner in to a self contained chiller. yes i know the danger trust me proper care will be taken its not like im gonna just start right now...


I'm pretty sure you can't. Different physics. Air conditioners pass air over the coils which in turn transfers the heat from the air to the refrigerant. Chillers pass water over the coils to transfer heat to the refrigerant. You'd have to gut the a/c and get new parts and an internal reservoir. The only part from the a/c you could use would be the fan and the diffuser.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 25, 2012)

Its still a closed loop just adding the grow room air too right?



Also just want to clarify I dont also have to have ICEBOXES in addition to a air handler/High HP chiller to make this work at 8-16 lights or is that part of the deal?


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## phillipchristian (Mar 25, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> Its still a closed loop just adding the grow room air too right?
> 
> View attachment 2086328
> 
> Also just want to clarify I dont also have to have ICEBOXES in addition to a air handler/High HP chiller to make this work at 8-16 lights or is that part of the deal?


Exactly. It's still a closed loop. Just recirculating air. You can even put a filter on your air handler to scrub the air from the room. Not as efficient as a carbon filter but I put a HEPA filter on mine. 

With 8-16 lights you only need the air handler. If you wanted to put an Ice Box or two in your veg room as spot a/c units you have the capacity on your chiller or you could just duct your air handler in there as well. You just won't have complete control over the temp unless you install an electronic damper with a thermostat. Or you can just put a lever vent and tweak it that way. Just remember, if you size a chiller for 8 lights then you are not going to be able to add another 8 later on. My room is using about 9hp worth of my chiller. I oversized it becuase I am adding 2 more 1000w lights. Even then I will have room left on it. It runs more efficient that way and someday in the future I may add more lights.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 25, 2012)

I can't tell if those are boxes on that drawing. If you have the air handler you will not need any Ice Box in your flower room. The only reason you would need a manifold line from your chiller that is seperate from the air handler hook ups is if you decided to get a water cooled Co2 generator, you wanted to cool your reservoir with a coil; or you had Ice Box or other water cooled equipment in another room.


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## ganjagoddess (Mar 25, 2012)

45 degrees for air handler, 60 for accesories right?...

I could see how once installed you could plug and play lines everywhere for all sorts of goodies...

If you had a hot spot could always throw in a Icebox...


Any advice as to why you would have to include the room, do you think it could run closed loop with just the lighting.

Definitly would circulate the air though.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 25, 2012)

The only reason you see the Ice Box in my floorplan is because I had them left over from another room so I just decided to throw them in there and take some load off my air handlers. Plus, when pushing 8k watts back to your air handler it helps to cool that air slightly before pumping it into the return. You won't need to worry about that though with only 6k watts. If you do more then that we will discuss your options; like dual air handlers.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 25, 2012)

ganjagoddess said:


> 45 degrees for air handler, 60 for accesories right?...
> 
> I could see how once installed you could plug and play lines everywhere for all sorts of goodies...


Exactly. Basically you build a manifold out of PVC and run it to all of the equipment you want to cool. You have a supply manifold and a return manifold. Here is the Hydro Innovations Schematic that even has the Lowes Part #'s. The spacing between feed lines would just depend on your need. You buy the parts and some 1 & 1 1/4 PVC and build it to whatever lengths you need.


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## deew (Mar 26, 2012)

Any experience with the ecoplus 1.5 hp commercial chiller phil? Or advise for someone looking to cool 4x600 watts in an 8' x 9' x 8' room? Need a chiller than can be installed inside the house but not inside the grow room.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

Hay phill I have a question. Im working on a idea to cool a few things. Using trans coolers from a car running water and antifreeze. Is it better to have the cooler befor or after the fans? Don't want to put holes in my room and be wrong. I'm thinking after. But also thinking maybe befor sence it might cool the fan motors.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> Hay phill I have a question. Im working on a idea to cool a few things. Using trans coolers from a car running water and antifreeze. Is it better to have the cooler befor or after the fans? Don't want to put holes in my room and be wrong. I'm thinking after. But also thinking maybe befor sence it might cool the fan motors.


Hey Warlock, if you are not putting anything after the coolers (like a hood or something) then run the fans first. Although it really doesn't matter. Positives and Negatives to both ways. Heat from the fan will actually warm the air a little if they are last and make the system less efficient. Pushing air through the cooler actually lowers CFM on the fans. It's all the same. You just don't blow air through a cooler into a hood because you will get condensation buildup. Good luck. Let me know how it turns out.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

deew said:


> Any experience with the ecoplus 1.5 hp commercial chiller phil? Or advise for someone looking to cool 4x600 watts in an 8' x 9' x 8' room? Need a chiller than can be installed inside the house but not inside the grow room.


Hey bud, I have no experience with the EcoPlus chillers but I am pretty sure anything over 1hp is gonna emmit some heat that needs to be exhausted. You really don't want those things inside cause they will warm the air and then become super inefficient. They are the same design as an a/c unit and to work efficiently they need cool air and they need to exhaust hot air outside or at least to another room. Any way you could put it in a window? Most of them are designed to be slide into windows and from the back they look like a window a/c. How are you cooling the lights? With Ice Boxes on the hoods or just using the chiller as a spot a/c with Ice Boxes around the room?


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Hey Warlock, if you are not putting anything after the coolers (like a hood or something) then run the fans first. Although it really doesn't matter. Positives and Negatives to both ways. Heat from the fan will actually warm the air a little if they are last and make the system less efficient. Pushing air through the cooler actually lowers CFM on the fans. It's all the same. You just don't blow air through a cooler into a hood because you will get condensation buildup. Good luck. Let me know how it turns out.


Any idea how to cool the air befor the lights? That was a biggie for me I'm looking at 120 temps and 15% RH need to cool the intake formThat to under 99. To cool right. I was thinking a cooler on the intake of the lights exoust the attic. A heat exchanger for the dehumidifier. Then a cooler for hot air from flower to bottom of veg room. Veg room hot air dumped by the dehumidifier with a cooler on that. All set inline with a AC running. I'm in a sealed room so no I don't want the dry hot air from outside coming in. I have 3 months to figure this out.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

Oh all my fans are in the rooms. Not outside. It's a large area but need my kids from asking what is that as long as possible. Don't need my teens finding out I grow. I dont have them. They live with mom. My younger 2 know and help. But never have them at the same time. Well in the grow house anyways.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> Any idea how to cool the air befor the lights? That was a biggie for me I'm looking at 120 temps and 15% RH need to cool the intake formThat to under 99. To cool right. I was thinking a cooler on the intake of the lights exoust the attic. A heat exchanger for the dehumidifier. Then a cooler for hot air from flower to bottom of veg room. Veg room hot air dumped by the dehumidifier with a cooler on that. All set inline with a AC running. I'm in a sealed room so no I don't want the dry hot air from outside coming in. I have 3 months to figure this out.


Sounds like you are buying a chiller anyway so why not size it correctly and use heat exhangers after your lights? Put a heat exchanger after every 1000w hood and use 1 fan to pull thaat air through the hoods. You won't need to exhaust it at all because the Ice Boxes will have cooled it back to ambient room temps. Then use your a/c to just cool the room and the dehumidifier. You can put a fan on a thermostat controller to pull air from your flower room to your veg room. 

Not sure how the sounds but it's kinda hard for me to say without knowing how many watts of lighting and the room dimensions. If you want you can PM me and I can mock a floorplan up for you. If you don't want that info in the thread.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm going on a small budget.Need to save for a new place to live. House isn't worth saving. I got 1summer grow then it's over. Got a new house lined up that is cooled but not here do was thinking of useibg 1 or 2 55 drums with ice keeping it at 55. Cool everything 20. That keeps me in my 85-65 range. Renter temps I had I check just trying to find a cheep way to last my 126 temp summers.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

I get kicked out turkey day. So no big buys like a chiller. If I can keep temps as is I'm fine.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

If you need to know my room it's in my sig.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

You got anywhere you can keep that reservoir that is not 125 degrees? Man, you will need to add Ice to that like 5 times a day. Hope you have a commercial ice maker cause if not I don't think that will work bro. With all that money you are gonna spend on heat exchangers, pumps, reservoirs, etc... you can easily get an adequate a/c to cool that room. Not sure what your setup is but you can get 24,000btu window a/c units for like $450.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> If you need to know my room it's in my sig.


Yea, now I remember. Great room man. Still think an a/c is the way to go bro. If you have one in there already or a portable one then you shouldn't need much more. Are you cooling your hoods with outside air?


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

I have almost everything. Just not the heat exchangers. I even have a extra AC. But if I don't need it do to my idea I don't want it. Will I add it if needed you bet you ass but trying to find a way not adding 30 bucks a week. And for the freezer yes I have a nice one that is used for food and can freeze a 1x2 block over night.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

Your the water cooled guy. If you say I need to add my extra AC I will just trying to think of cheaper ways ATM.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

I have 3 rooms going. The AC takes care of the veg rooms not the flower. Thinking of the money room.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> I have almost everything. Just not the heat exchangers. I even have a extra AC. But if I don't need it do to my idea I don't want it. Will I add it if needed you bet you ass but trying to find a way not adding 30 bucks a week. And for the freezer yes I have a nice one that is used for food and can freeze a 1x2 block over night.


Sounds like you are there bro. My suggestion would be to make your reservoir as small as possible. If you have no chiller then you really don't need that much antifreeze. Also, make sure it's pure Propylene Glycol and doesn't contain any coolants. Should only cost you $3-$4 a gallon. If it's more then that it has other chemicals in it. You'll only need about 15-20% in your reservoir. Try and get a 30 gallon reservoir if you can. Problems that I see are that you aren't going to be able to totally control reservoir temps and if you bring chilled water into your room and it is below dewpoint then you are going to end up with a shitload of condensation on those supply lines. As far as pushing that air through your hood I wouldn't recommend it. Especially if there is the possibility of condensation on your coils. You don't want to be splattering water all over your bulbs. I would say use the fans and heat exhangers as spot a/c units and try and keep the chiller lines out of the room for as long as you can. On my water cooled air handlers the supply lines from my chiller run outside of the building all the way to the air handler and then straight through the wall and into the back of the unit. That way you can run your reservoir at 40 degrees and cool the shit out of that room with those heat exchangers. Just make sure they aren't blowing directly on your plants or electronics just in case there is a condensation build up on the heat exchanger.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

Well I have a 55 gallon tank well 5. But after talking thru this for 1 summer 4 months it will cost me 400 bucks to run. And water will cost 360 if it works. Guess I'll set up the AC then work on the water cooled. I do plan on going all water. But that's a later plan.
Thank you. I've go alot of growing under my belt but you know where I plan on going.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> Well I have a 55 gallon tank well 5. But after talking thru this for 1 summer 4 months it will cost me 400 bucks to run. And water will cost 360 if it works. Guess I'll set up the AC then work on the water cooled. I do plan on going all water. But that's a later plan.
> Thank you. I've go alot of growing under my belt but you know where I plan on going.


I went to Arizona State University for my undergrad (really just to party and get hot chics) so I know the temps you are dealing with. When the day comes you wanna go water cooled you let me know and I'll help you dial in a NICE system.


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## deew (Mar 26, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Any way you could put it in a window? Most of them are designed to be slide into windows and from the back they look like a window a/c. How are you cooling the lights? With Ice Boxes on the hoods or just using the chiller as a spot a/c with Ice Boxes around the room?


Having anything outside is not an option for me. With summer coming I need work out heat issues which I didn't have to deal with in winter time. Was looking into getting a portable ac when I discovered this thread. I have a couple 6" inline fans cooling each set of 2 hoods, exhausting outside the house. So was thinking an ice box for each set of lights instead of ac. But I need to be able to run the chiller inside. Probably not possible but I thought I would see what you have to say about it.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

deew said:


> Having anything outside is not an option for me. With summer coming I need work out heat issues which I didn't have to deal with in winter time. Was looking into getting a portable ac when I discovered this thread. I have a couple 6" inline fans cooling each set of 2 hoods, exhausting outside the house. So was thinking an ice box for each set of lights instead of ac. But I need to be able to run the chiller inside. Probably not possible but I thought I would see what you have to say about it.


Essentially chillers are heat pumps just like a/c units. They need to exhaust their hot air somewhere out of the room they are cooling or getting their air from or else they just won't work. This is why you see portable a/c units with at least 1 hose usually. Do you have 2 or 4 lights? Couldn't tell if you were saying you had a set of 2 or 2 sets of two. Doesn't really matter. The only way I could see you running a chiller that size in your house is if you put it in another room and then used either an a/c or an exhaust fan in the window to suck out the hot air exhaust from the chiller. If you put a chiller in a sealed room or one with poor ventilation and cold air intake then basically the chiller will heat the air to a point that it makes the chiller work twice as hard to cool the water. Your chiller will slowly start to work more and more over the course of a couple hours until it is running non stop because the air it is pushing over its coils is too hot to cool the refrigerant inside of it.


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

ASU is only 3 hours from me. I'm still in the Mojave so temps are bad.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 26, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> ASU is only 3 hours from me. I'm still in the Mojave so temps are bad.


I've got a pretty good idea of where you are then. I see you!!!


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm not afraded to say it. I'm in victimville.


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## lobsta (Mar 27, 2012)

hey great info here and you sure seem to know what your talking about so i was hoping pick your brain about some cooling info, I have a 4x8 tent with two 600 watt air cooled lights in a 15x15 room in my basement, the lights are on their own cooling circuit drawing and returning air from the other part of my basement keeping my lights cool, with this setup it will run three to four hours before venting and drawing from the 15x15 air conditioned room to cool down, at this point my controller turns off the CO2 and turns on the exhaust fans and in about 10 minutes it's back to normal, so here's my new problem, I recently switched from soil to flood tables and my humidity is out of control, just so everyone knows I have covered my tables in panda film and pruned my plants back and all that but they are just growing at such a rate my exhaust fans run almost continuously to keep the humidity down so as a fix I put a 70 pint per day dehumidifier with easily keeps the humidity in check but now vents on high heat because of the heat from the dehumidifier. I believe if I can remove the heat produced from the dehumidifier it will all go back to normal, can you tell me what I can do other than a mini split to cool this dehumidifier? I'm hoping a 6" ice box and small chiller will do the trick, thanks for your time and effort, great thread.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 27, 2012)

lobsta said:


> hey great info here and you sure seem to know what your talking about so i was hoping pick your brain about some cooling info, I have a 4x8 tent with two 600 watt air cooled lights in a 15x15 room in my basement, the lights are on their own cooling circuit drawing and returning air from the other part of my basement keeping my lights cool, with this setup it will run three to four hours before venting and drawing from the 15x15 air conditioned room to cool down, at this point my controller turns off the CO2 and turns on the exhaust fans and in about 10 minutes it's back to normal, so here's my new problem, I recently switched from soil to flood tables and my humidity is out of control, just so everyone knows I have covered my tables in panda film and pruned my plants back and all that but they are just growing at such a rate my exhaust fans run almost continuously to keep the humidity down so as a fix I put a 70 pint per day dehumidifier with easily keeps the humidity in check but now vents on high heat because of the heat from the dehumidifier. I believe if I can remove the heat produced from the dehumidifier it will all go back to normal, can you tell me what I can do other than a mini split to cool this dehumidifier? I'm hoping a 6" ice box and small chiller will do the trick, thanks for your time and effort, great thread.


Jey bud, thanks for stopping by. I think the problem is the size of your dehumidifier. A 70 pint unit for a room that small seems like a lot. Before you go purchasing an Ice Box, chiller, pump, reservoir, etc... I would look into a 30pint dehumidifier. I have a friend that uses one in his 8x8 tent and it really produces no heat at all. The other option would be to rig your dehumidifier exhaust to blow out of the tent. This would require some ducting, foil tape, and a vent to fit over the exhaust on your dehumidifier. The problem is that your dehumidifier creates so much heat (about 5,000btu when running) that it heats the tent air which in turn forces the intake fans to kick on which bring in humid air from the basement which then forces your dehumidifier to work even more. It's just an inefficient cycle.


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## NickNasty (Mar 28, 2012)

What about in a place where your average temp in summer is like 60 degrees? It can get up into the 80's sometimes but not often. I am going to have 6k watts going this summer and Im trying to figure out how big a res I would need and what kind of $ it would cost me to water cool my room. Here are a few things to help you wrap your head around my room, I have a nice big crawl space that basically stays around the temp it is outside. I am also going to be growing vertically in soil most likely bare bulb. I have 2 ac units that are 20k btu total for the hottest days. My ballasts will be in another crawl space so they will not heat up the room and I plan to get a CO2 generator. My plan for right now is to run my lights at night pull in fresh air from outside and use the ac units to cool it down the rest of the way if/when needed. But I would like to have a closed room setup eventually so I trying to figure out everything I need. I have a friend who is going to go to water cooled and what he is going to do is rent a backhoe for a day and drop a 250gal res below the frost line right next to his house outside but unfortunately I cannot do that as I share a driveway. Also would these heat exchangers work for cooling my room if I put a fan behind them? https://www.pexuniverse.com/brazetek-water-to-air-heat-exchangers


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## phillipchristian (Mar 28, 2012)

NickNasty said:


> What about in a place where your average temp in summer is like 60 degrees? It can get up into the 80's sometimes but not often. I am going to have 6k watts going this summer and Im trying to figure out how big a res I would need and what kind of $ it would cost me to water cool my room. Here are a few things to help you wrap your head around my room, I have a nice big crawl space that basically stays around the temp it is outside. I am also going to be growing vertically in soil most likely bare bulb. I have 2 ac units that are 20k btu total for the hottest days. My ballasts will be in another crawl space so they will not heat up the room and I plan to get a CO2 generator. My plan for right now is to run my lights at night pull in fresh air from outside and use the ac units to cool it down the rest of the way if/when needed. But I would like to have a closed room setup eventually so I trying to figure out everything I need. I have a friend who is going to go to water cooled and what he is going to do is rent a backhoe for a day and drop a 250gal res below the frost line right next to his house outside but unfortunately I cannot do that as I share a driveway. Also would these heat exchangers work for cooling my room if I put a fan behind them? https://www.pexuniverse.com/brazetek-water-to-air-heat-exchangers


Hey Nick, thanks for stopping by. 

Sounds like you really don't need to go water cooled. If you want to seal your room then I understand but if you seal your lights well and add filters to the intake and exhaust ports then you should be fine exhausting them outside. You have plenty of a/c and judging by your ambient temps you won't need it much.

If you decide you want to go water cooled then great. All you would need for those 6 lights is a 1hp chiller and a 55 gallon reservoir setup outside with a pump. Since you are running at night the cool air will act like a 1hp chiller in itself. Then just use Ice Box on every light and you probably will only have to use your a/c 5 minutes every hour. The Ice Box will remove all of the heat from your hoods and the a/c will only be cooling the ambient air in your room. 

Thise heat exchangers in the link will work just fine. You want to seal them up tight to a fan though. At the price you are paying for 1 I would just get an Ice Box. If you stick a fan behind that you will be losing CFM from the fan as it hits the heat exchanger because it is so big. The Ice Box are good because they are sealed so your inline fan will force all of the air through the coils. If anything; I would build an air tight box with the fan on one side and that coil on the other side.


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## NickNasty (Mar 28, 2012)

Cool thanks for the advice. The reason I was thinking water cooled is because I thought with the outside temps being what they are the majority of the time I wouldn't even need a chiller if I had a big enough res. (How big would I need?) and could get away with the a/c on the really hot days when the res was too hot. Also I will be growing vertically so I will have no hoods which is why I was thinking one of those 20k btu heat exchangers for $221 and maybe a 8" or 12" fan behind it would be a better option then an ice box to cool my room.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 28, 2012)

NickNasty said:


> Cool thanks for the advice. The reason I was thinking water cooled is because I thought with the outside temps being what they are the majority of the time I wouldn't even need a chiller if I had a big enough res. (How big would I need?) and could get away with the a/c on the really hot days when the res was too hot. Also I will be growing vertically so I will have no hoods which is why I was thinking one of those 20k btu heat exchangers for $221 and maybe a 8" or 12" fan behind it would be a better option then an ice box to cool my room.


I've never done just a straight ambient reservoir. I mean in the winter you're gonna have issues. I really can't say what size you will need cause I have no experience and it seems like it depends on a lot of variables. Burying it in the ground makes it much more efficientbut you said you can't do that. 

I would go for the 12" fan and try and fix it a flush as you can with the heat exchanger so you don't lose air pressure out of the sides.


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## ikickbutt (Mar 30, 2012)

a lot of info in this threat, but i'm thinking something much smaller. i have a 2'x3' cabinet that's about 5 feet tall. inside i'm running a 200w cfl. with the doors closed the temps go up to 30 degrees C (sorry i'm not familiar with F). so i drilled a 2.5 inch hole out the side into the wall space beside the cabinet. that wall space( behind the drywall) runs up to my attic and there i have a 80mm pc fan blowing air down the wall into the cabinet. all that is great with colder winter air bringing my temps down to 24ish C. now i'm concerned that during the summer the temps are just too warm in my attic to cool my cabinet enough. i'm curious if a small aluminum heat exchanger(158mm*120mm*30mm) mounted to the inside of my cabinet with another fan pulling air though it from the attic, is enough to do the trick? 
[FONT=&#23435;&#20307;][/FONT][FONT=&#23435;&#20307;][/FONT]


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## phillipchristian (Mar 30, 2012)

ikickbutt said:


> a lot of info in this threat, but i'm thinking something much smaller. i have a 2'x3' cabinet that's about 5 feet tall. inside i'm running a 200w cfl. with the doors closed the temps go up to 30 degrees C (sorry i'm not familiar with F). so i drilled a 2.5 inch hole out the side into the wall space beside the cabinet. that wall space( behind the drywall) runs up to my attic and there i have a 80mm pc fan blowing air down the wall into the cabinet. all that is great with colder winter air bringing my temps down to 24ish C. now i'm concerned that during the summer the temps are just too warm in my attic to cool my cabinet enough. i'm curious if a small aluminum heat exchanger(158mm*120mm*30mm) mounted to the inside of my cabinet with another fan pulling air though it from the attic, is enough to do the trick?


I'm sure it would help. Put the fan on a thermostat controller. Where are you getting the water from for the heat exchanger?


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## Warlock1369 (Mar 30, 2012)

Attics get supper hot in the summer. Some times twice as hot as out doors. I think you would be better and flip the fan. Blownin the hot air out of the area and into the attic. And pull air from your outside room into the cab. If you keep it at a comfortable temp in the room temps in the cab will be lower. I'm sure it can keep up with your cfl.



ikickbutt said:


> a lot of info in this threat, but i'm thinking something much smaller. i have a 2'x3' cabinet that's about 5 feet tall. inside i'm running a 200w cfl. with the doors closed the temps go up to 30 degrees C (sorry i'm not familiar with F). so i drilled a 2.5 inch hole out the side into the wall space beside the cabinet. that wall space( behind the drywall) runs up to my attic and there i have a 80mm pc fan blowing air down the wall into the cabinet. all that is great with colder winter air bringing my temps down to 24ish C. now i'm concerned that during the summer the temps are just too warm in my attic to cool my cabinet enough. i'm curious if a small aluminum heat exchanger(158mm*120mm*30mm) mounted to the inside of my cabinet with another fan pulling air though it from the attic, is enough to do the trick?
> [FONT=&#23435;&#20307;][/FONT][FONT=&#23435;&#20307;][/FONT]


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## ikickbutt (Mar 31, 2012)

hmm, i've never actually checked temps during summer in the attic. but with a black roof, that sounds likely to get pretty hot. i also have a 4" fan drawing air out of the cabinet through a carbon filter back into the attic. guess i'll just experiment more. as for where the water comes from, i'm thinking directly from the cold water manifold by my hot water tank, in a slow trickle. but i feel bad for wasting water, i dunno yet, trying to keep things as low key and very stealthy.
tap water is 15C (or 60F). how much different does the temp of the water have to be to actually have a cooling effect?


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## phillipchristian (Mar 31, 2012)

If you pay your water bill than I wouldn't suggest doing it. The amount of water pressure you'll need at those temps to rmove heat from your room will be a lot more then a trickle. You would essentially need your faucet at full pressure. Because water has such high heat conductivity you need to supply water cooled equipment with substantial flow rates for them to be effective. This is why you see that most water cooled applicationsinvolve a recirculating reservoir.


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## ikickbutt (Mar 31, 2012)

thanks for the input. gives me something to ponder over


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## drgreentm (Mar 31, 2012)

hey phil whats up man, i need some advice on a chiller i am looking at. here is a link http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HP-24K-BTU-aquarium-hydroponics-water-chiller-NEW-/280853781008?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4164309a10#ht_500wt_1156

would this unit suffice for running x4 1000w with heat exchanges or is it junk in your opinion. i REALLY like the chillking 2hp but they are quite pricey and i cant afford one at the moment. at this point i only have x2 1000w but will soon be running x2 more and just want something that is going to work and not have to waste the money, i would rather just wait until i have the money for the chillking. 

thanks in advance


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## phillipchristian (Mar 31, 2012)

drgreentm said:


> hey phil whats up man, i need some advice on a chiller i am looking at. here is a link http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HP-24K-BTU-aquarium-hydroponics-water-chiller-NEW-/280853781008?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4164309a10#ht_500wt_1156
> 
> would this unit suffice for running x4 1000w with heat exchanges or is it junk in your opinion. i REALLY like the chillking 2hp but they are quite pricey and i cant afford one at the moment. at this point i only have x2 1000w but will soon be running x2 more and just want something that is going to work and not have to waste the money, i would rather just wait until i have the money for the chillking.
> 
> thanks in advance


Hey Doc, thanks for stopping by. That chiller is an aquarium chiller. Unfortunately they are not meant for hydroponic applications. I've seen a couple people try and use them because they are cheaper but when you put that kind of continuos heat load on them then they will fail rather quickly; a matter of months. They're like standby generators kinda; not really meant to run all the time. Plus some of the internal parts are not the best in those units. They are designed to get a fishtank to the right temperature and then maintain that which is easy. Constantly absorbing the heat load of a water cooled system will fry that thing. Le me know if and when you change your mind about the Chillking unit, I can probably get you a pretty steep discount. Maybe 20% off.


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## drgreentm (Mar 31, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Hey Doc, thanks for stopping by. That chiller is an aquarium chiller. Unfortunately they are not meant for hydroponic applications. I've seen a couple people try and use them because they are cheaper but when you put that kind of continuos heat load on them then they will fail rather quickly; a matter of months. They're like standby generators kinda; not really meant to run all the time. Plus some of the internal parts are not the best in those units. They are designed to get a fishtank to the right temperature and then maintain that which is easy. Constantly absorbing the heat load of a water cooled system will fry that thing. Le me know if and when you change your mind about the Chillking unit, I can probably get you a pretty steep discount. Maybe 20% off.


your the man phil. i would hate to buy something that fails on me and leaves the op shut down ya know. i will definitively be letting you know when i have the cash to get the chillking, its the chiller i have wanted since day 1 prably a few more months then i will be starting up this change to my grow. my 8500 btu ac is running night and day trying to keep things cool and the thing pulls some power, plus i really want to run some co2 in there anyway thanks a bunch for the info and im subb'd to keep up on the info on this thread.


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## phillipchristian (Mar 31, 2012)

drgreentm said:


> your the man phil. i would hate to buy something that fails on me and leaves the op shut down ya know. i will definitively be letting you know when i have the cash to get the chillking, its the chiller i have wanted since day 1 prably a few more months then i will be starting up this change to my grow. my 8500 btu ac is running night and day trying to keep things cool and the thing pulls some power, plus i really want to run some co2 in there anyway thanks a bunch for the info and im subb'd to keep up on the info on this thread.


My pleasure man. Glad to have you. Are you getting the chiller to replace your a/c or are you going to use them together? If I were you I wouldn't plan on throwing that a/c away. A lot is gonna depend on your room and the other heat producing equipment you have in there. EcoPlus makes a 1.5hp chiller for around the same price as that aquarium chiller you were looking at. That would be more than enough to cool the exhaust from the 4 hoods, a coil for your reservoir, and a water cooled Co2 generator. Then your a/c would only have to cool the ambient temps of your room. It would probably come on for 10 minutes every hour. It woulb basically be like you were just trying to cool the room with no grow equipment in there. That's a possibility. I can't vouch for the quality of their product but it is made for hydroponic applications and does have a titanium coil.


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## drgreentm (Apr 1, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> My pleasure man. Glad to have you. Are you getting the chiller to replace your a/c or are you going to use them together? If I were you I wouldn't plan on throwing that a/c away. A lot is gonna depend on your room and the other heat producing equipment you have in there. EcoPlus makes a 1.5hp chiller for around the same price as that aquarium chiller you were looking at. That would be more than enough to cool the exhaust from the 4 hoods, a coil for your reservoir, and a water cooled Co2 generator. Then your a/c would only have to cool the ambient temps of your room. It would probably come on for 10 minutes every hour. It woulb basically be like you were just trying to cool the room with no grow equipment in there. That's a possibility. I can't vouch for the quality of their product but it is made for hydroponic applications and does have a titanium coil.


I was thinking a real small air handler in there, do you think it would do all that? I can get a great deal on a 8 burner cap co2 gen but its not air cooled, do you think that is a problem or would the air handler in place of the liquid cooled gen work sufficient? I'm still learning allot about co2 lol.


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## drgreentm (Apr 1, 2012)

And the air handler I was looking at was a single fan 4 coil I believe.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 1, 2012)

drgreentm said:


> I was thinking a real small air handler in there, do you think it would do all that? I can get a great deal on a 8 burner cap co2 gen but its not air cooled, do you think that is a problem or would the air handler in place of the liquid cooled gen work sufficient? I'm still learning allot about co2 lol.





drgreentm said:


> And the air handler I was looking at was a single fan 4 coil I believe.


I thought you meant you wanted one of the water cooled air handlers. Those CAP 8 burner units add some heat to the room but not much. I still think if you get the chiller you won't need an air handler. I can pretty much gurantee it. Basically the only thing you would need to cool is the ambient temps of the room and the Co2 burner. I'm not sure how big your room is but an 8,500btu a/c is rated for around 200sq.ft so I'm confident you'll be fine. Even if you had the ballasts in the room and a dehumidifier it would still be cheaper to get a portable or window a/c unit then an air handler.


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## drgreentm (Apr 1, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> I thought you meant you wanted one of the water cooled air handlers. Those CAP 8 burner units add some heat to the room but not much. I still think if you get the chiller you won't need an air handler. I can pretty much gurantee it. Basically the only thing you would need to cool is the ambient temps of the room and the Co2 burner. I'm not sure how big your room is but an 8,500btu a/c is rated for around 200sq.ft so I'm confident you'll be fine. Even if you had the ballasts in the room and a dehumidifier it would still be cheaper to get a portable or window a/c unit then an air handler.


I got ya, my room is about 12x12x8 and I am going to have x2 4x8 tents inside the room each having x2 1000w inside. The initial plan was to place the burner in the room outside the tents and enrich the whole space the tents are in, having intake fans on each tent pulling enriched air inside then having a exhaust fan pulling air through the lights ( each light having a icebox on it ) then outside the tent and back into the room and recycling it back to the tent. The ac unit has to be ducted out for the compressor heat but I imagine I could use a icebox for that as well but idk lol what you think?


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## phillipchristian (Apr 1, 2012)

drgreentm said:


> I got ya, my room is about 12x12x8 and I am going to have x2 4x8 tents inside the room each having x2 1000w inside. The initial plan was to place the burner in the room outside the tents and enrich the whole space the tents are in, having intake fans on each tent pulling enriched air inside then having a exhaust fan pulling air through the lights ( each light having a icebox on it ) then outside the tent. The ac unit has to be ducted out for the compressor heat but I imagine I could use a icebox for that as well but idk lol what you think?


That could definitely work but if you use the Ice Box to also cool the ambient temps in the tents then you'll need to go with the 2hp model (Chillking) or maybe even bigger. If you did get the 1.5hp chiller then Hydro Innovations makes a water cooler generator (MiniGen) that you could hang in each tent. The only go for about $250 and would be more than enough if you bought 1 for each tent. They run on propane and all you would need is the monitor/controller. Then you would be cooling all of the heat producing equipment in the tents and would only need to pump some cool fresh air in there as needed. Maybe via active intakes or 2 small portable 6,000btu a/c units.


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## drgreentm (Apr 1, 2012)

Now you got me thinking lol that's a great idea!! A gen in each tent then I could use the iceboxes to cool the tent as well as expell the heat from the lights correct?? Then my ac would just have to cool the room with the ballasts in it. You think the 1.5 hp chiller would hack that?


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## phillipchristian (Apr 1, 2012)

drgreentm said:


> Now you got me thinking lol that's a great idea!! A gen in each tent then I could use the iceboxes to cool the tent as well as expell the heat from the lights correct?? Then my ac would just have to cool the room with the ballasts in it. You think the 1.5 hp chiller would hack that?


You are going to need a 2hp chiller if you want to use an Ice Box to cool each tent. You could do a 1.5hp chiller just to cool the exhaust on your lights; both Co2 generators; and any reservoirs. You are still going to need to cool the tents so if you can use the a/c in the room and just draw that cold air into each tent you should be more then fine. Your lights will be real cool. When I was using the Ice Box I could lay my face on the glass all day. You'll only need to cool ambient temps of the room and maybe the dehumidifier exhaust. You can do that with a intake fan and thermostat controller. You'd only need about the equivelent of 2,000btu of cooling drawn into the room.


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## budleydoright (Apr 1, 2012)

Those Ecoplus chillersr eally can't be compared to the chill king. I believe they are really more of an aquarium duty chiller than an industrial duty.


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## Hucklberry (Apr 1, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> Buy a stainless wort chiller coil off of ebay for 50 bucks. Made to fit inside a 5 gal bucket.


After some serious thought on finding a DIY low cost way to provide chilled water to use in applications for a grow room I came up with this idea. Tell me what you think.


I take my chest freezer which has a molded plastic inner shell as most of them do, Fill it with enough water to cover 3 or 4 of those Wort stainless steel coils coupled together with short pieces of garden hose. Set the freezer temp control to a setting that would get the water in the freezer compartment very cold but not frozen. If the stock thermostat can't do this then replace it with one taken from an old refrigerator. I would hope that when the sytem is up and running the heat coming back from the room would be enough to keep the water in the freezer from freezing. Even if it did you could use antifreeze in a closed loop system. You really can't hurt those stainless coils. I know someone is going to say " what about a leak. My answer is, if you use good materials and pressue test the system like all closed loop cooling systems in the commercial world, then leaks won't be a problem. There are all types of risks you take when growing, This is one risk vs reward for cheap cooling I would be willing to take. of course the freezer sits outside the room and if stealth is a concern and your room is in your garage it looks very natural. Dual zones for hydro systems could be a bit tricky, but for those of us using soil this just might do the trick. 

Finally I read alot of posts concerning condensation, the answer is insulate the water lines as the do in the commercial world. cheap insulation for piping is available at all the home improvement stores. 

I'm very intrested in feedback on this idea, Thanks in advance!


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## budleydoright (Apr 1, 2012)

Your chest freezer is designed for a static load. Adding heat constantly will almost certainly burn out your compressor. I think a rez chiller could be done like this, but nothing that could handle HID lamps.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 1, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> Those Ecoplus chillersr eally can't be compared to the chill king. I believe they are really more of an aquarium duty chiller than an industrial duty.


Yea, I don't have much faith in their compact ones (the little black box) any more than cooling reservoirs but I don't know too much about their commercial ones and the 1.5hp is a commercial unit. I don't think they are all that bad and they have hose connects so they are designed for hydroponic use.


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## Hucklberry (Apr 1, 2012)

Your right to a point, but it would depend on the heat level coming back. In my case I have 8'x16' room. 5-400 watt lights the intake and output are vented outside the room. The ballast are also outside the room. No co2 no dehumidifier yet. I would only use for ambient room temp. During the peak of summer I would only have to lower the room by 10 or 15 maybe 20 degrees. Having a window ac mounted in a room in the garage is a dead give away when seen from the street. Although I'm legal I have always operated with stealth in mind. I thought posting more infomation on my room might help. Probably would not work for a larger operation with 4 or 5 1000 watters and other associated gear. I currently have the ac window in use but people have already asked me whats going on. I just tell them it's a recording studio or a wood working shop but I'm not sure there buying it.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 1, 2012)

Hucklberry said:


> After some serious thought on finding a DIY low cost way to provide chilled water to use in applications for a grow room I came up with this idea. Tell me what you think.
> 
> 
> I take my chest freezer which has a molded plastic inner shell as most of them do, Fill it with enough water to cover 3 or 4 of those Wort stainless steel coils coupled together with short pieces of garden hose. Set the freezer temp control to a setting that would get the water in the freezer compartment very cold but not frozen. If the stock thermostat can't do this then replace it with one taken from an old refrigerator. I would hope that when the sytem is up and running the heat coming back from the room would be enough to keep the water in the freezer from freezing. Even if it did you could use antifreeze in a closed loop system. You really can't hurt those stainless coils. I know someone is going to say " what about a leak. My answer is, if you use good materials and pressue test the system like all closed loop cooling systems in the commercial world, then leaks won't be a problem. There are all types of risks you take when growing, This is one risk vs reward for cheap cooling I would be willing to take. of course the freezer sits outside the room and if stealth is a concern and your room is in your garage it looks very natural. Dual zones for hydro systems could be a bit tricky, but for those of us using soil this just might do the trick.
> ...


I agree with Budley on this one. If you are trying to cool 1 light or maybe some reservoir as well then go for it. Anything more than that and you will be putting too much load on that compressor and it will fail eventually. The design sounds great and I don't think you'd have any problems with freezing but those freezer compressors are not meant for heavy loads.

As far as you idea about condensation and pipe insulation. It doesn't work; especially in a grow room. If you are running water through your pipes that is 45-50 degrees and using that foam insulation then you are going to have severe condensation build up and mold problems. That insulation will also turn literally to mush within 2-3 months max. I use Rubatex which is a thermal nyplon/plastic insulation fitting that is considerably more expensive and I still don't run my chiller below 55 because it has led to problems.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 1, 2012)

Hucklberry said:


> Your right to a point, but it would depend on the heat level coming back. In my case I have 8'x16' room. 5-400 watt lights the intake and output are vented outside the room. The ballast are also outside the room. No co2 no dehumidifier yet. I would only use for ambient room temp. During the peak of summer I would only have to lower the room by 10 or 15 maybe 20 degrees. Having a window ac mounted in a room in the garage is a dead give away when seen from the street. Although I'm legal I have always operated with stealth in mind. I thought posting more infomation on my room might help. Probably would not work for a larger operation with 4 or 5 1000 watters and other associated gear. I currently have the ac window in use but people have already asked me whats going on. I just tell it's a recording studio or a wood working shop but I'm not sure there buying it.


Instead of all of that buildout; and since your lights are already vented; why not just get a portable a/c and just vent the exaust. If you ONLY need to cool the ambient temps in the room then that will be a lot easier and probably cheaper. You can get a 12,000btu one for like $400.


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## Hucklberry (Apr 1, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Instead of all of that buildout; and since your lights are already vented; why not just get a portable a/c and just vent the exaust. If you ONLY need to cool the ambient temps in the room then that will be a lot easier and probably cheaper. You can get a 12,000btu one for like $400.


The portable ac would help with the stealth aspect. The cost of the needed materials I don't already own would about $150 more than a portable ac. Makes sense!


The DIY blood that runs through my veins says for $150 I need to try it anyways if it doesn't work I could sell the 4 Wort coils and recoup part of the cash. 

Thanks and +rep for your post.


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## Hucklberry (Apr 1, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> I agree with Budley on this one. If you are trying to cool 1 light or maybe some reservoir as well then go for it. Anything more than that and you will be putting too much load on that compressor and it will fail eventually. The design sounds great and I don't think you'd have any problems with freezing but those freezer compressors are not meant for heavy loads.
> 
> As far as you idea about condensation and pipe insulation. It doesn't work; especially in a grow room. If you are running water through your pipes that is 45-50 degrees and using that foam insulation then you are going to have severe condensation build up and mold problems. That insulation will also turn literally to mush within 2-3 months max. I use Rubatex which is a thermal nyplon/plastic insulation fitting that is considerably more expensive and I still don't run my chiller below 55 because it has led to problems.



I was speaking about an insulation product we call armaflex, my contact at work would supply this at little to no cost. I'm sorry, I was probaly misleading you a bit, fiberglass insulation would not work and I'm not sure they even sell Armaflex at the box store. For the sake of arguement let's scrap the insulation idea and change the design a little. Would mounting the condenser just inside the room with only 12 to 18 inches of exposed water lines help with condensation maybe use a drip pan to collect it?


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## phillipchristian (Apr 1, 2012)

Hucklberry said:


> I was speaking about an insulation product we call armaflex, my contact at work would supply this at little to no cost. I'm sorry, I was probaly misleading you a bit, fiberglass insulation would not work and I'm not sure they even sell Armaflex at the box store. For the sake of arguement let's scrap the insulation idea and change the design a little. Would mounting the condenser just inside the room with only 12 to 18 inches of exposed water lines help with condensation maybe use a drip pan to collect it?


That would work fine. Just stick a bucket under it and you'll be ok. Make sure you wipe the lines down often too; will help prevent mold buildup.


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## budleydoright (Apr 2, 2012)

I would suggest looking into this further. I know there are dozens of forum posts on various sites with people building chillers out of freezers, mini fridges, water coolers, and air conditioners. It may work if the freezer can work during the dark cycle and store enough energy in the form of ice or a super chilled solution. It will end up with the early demise of the freezer though. they are just not made for any type of continous load. What your doing is the equivelent of leaving the door open a crack.

The hacked up window AC is the only real diy solution I know of that can handle a continous load.


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## Hucklberry (Apr 2, 2012)

Thanks bud for the post I do have a couple of ac window units and refrigerators laying around maybe I could take the compressor out of one and see if it's feasible to solder/braze it into the freezer.


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## Warlock1369 (Apr 3, 2012)

Hay phil. Have you tried AC and dehumidifiers at different higths? I'm thinking of changing it up but not sure if I'm going to make it worse or better. Right now I have the dehy up high top 3 feet of my room and AC in the middle aimed down. Did this for heat reasons. Hot air holds more water and heat rises. But was thinking of dropping the dehy to the bottom 3 feet taking the heated air out the room. And placing the AC up top. AC is a window unit so only the face is in the room. Now I go thru alot of ro waste water so still thumbing of using that to cool the intake side of my lights that are sealed and vent to the adict. Bringing down the temps left from the AC and dehy. I'm looking at 120 outside temps so cooling is a must. Any ideas? It's a 14x14 room with a 20x18 hot room. And if everything gose rite I'll have 6000 watts of lights going in 2 months.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 3, 2012)

Hey bud. I've never really thought about it. I would think that putting the dehumidifier down low would push the exhaust from it to the ceiling and then force the more humid air down to be dehumidified. Also, I always recommend having your a/c push air to the ceiling if you have a window unit. It will cool and dehumidify your room more efficiently.

For cooling the intake side of your lights I still think you are gonna need a chiller or another portable a/c. With those types of temps and that much lighting you really don't have much of a choice. Chiller being the more expensive upfront cost but more efficient and the portable a/c being the cheaper quick fix which will cost you a little more every month in electricity.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

hey huckleberry i got some extra parts lying around and can get a hold of refrigerant.. how do i go about pressurizing the system after i add my pipes and make my new bends and what not? is there a bleeder valve on the compressor? can i hand pump? what kind of gauges do i need? i have a couple that where given to me free a long time a go that still work or i can but a new set or borrow some from a friend


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## Warlock1369 (Apr 3, 2012)

That's what I'm thinking now. And the reason I asked. I have it set up the way I would a job im on but looking at it I think I'm ass backwards. Well I got 6 weeks to get the stuff I need. I'm gonna go for it and give you a up date if my first was better or swapping was. Next one might be my last in this house and changing things up so might help



phillipchristian said:


> Hey bud. I've never really thought about it. I would think that putting the dehumidifier down low would push the exhaust from it to the ceiling and then force the more humid air down to be dehumidified. Also, I always recommend having your a/c push air to the ceiling if you have a window unit. It will cool and dehumidify your room more efficiently.
> 
> For cooling the intake side of your lights I still think you are gonna need a chiller or another portable a/c. With those types of temps and that much lighting you really don't have much of a choice. Chiller being the more expensive upfront cost but more efficient and the portable a/c being the cheaper quick fix which will cost you a little more every month in electricity.


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## Warlock1369 (Apr 3, 2012)

There isn't many people I trust for info. So I'm lucky to have you to bounce ideas off of. Thanks


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## Hucklberry (Apr 3, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> hey huckleberry i got some extra parts lying around and can get a hold of refrigerant.. how do i go about pressurizing the system after i add my pipes and make my new bends and what not? is there a bleeder valve on the compressor? can i hand pump? what kind of gauges do i need? i have a couple that where given to me free a long time a go that still work or i can but a new set or borrow some from a friend


The ports for the gauges would have to be installed in the approriate lines when you put in the other compressor. The household freezers and ac units I have seen don't come with these recharge ports from the factory. Basically there throw away items when they fail and discharge. Also if your a tree hugger you should recover any old refrigerant when you discharge the old system. In my area it's the law. My brother works in the HVAC field and I would let him handle the recharge.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 3, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> There isn't many people I trust for info. So I'm lucky to have you to bounce ideas off of. Thanks


My pleasure to help anytime man. Let me know which one works out better. Usually on rooms that size you really won't see a difference just cause the air is so dispersed and with all the fans blowing you get really good movement.


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## budleydoright (Apr 3, 2012)

Hucklberry said:


> Thanks bud for the post I do have a couple of ac window units and refrigerators laying around maybe I could take the compressor out of one and see if it's feasible to solder/braze it into the freezer.


If your going to do any brazing recharging on a window unit. Build one of like this. This is a window AC with the evaporator replaced with a direct to water coaxial coil. You can even buy them with stainless steel coils although they are very expensive. I was getting ready to test the salt water version, which should be usable with nutes but am no longer using a chiller. Paid less than 50 bucks for 2 of the coils at a surplus yard.

I ran 3 fresca sols with 600 hps off of this 100 window unit from wal mart. I could bring 50 gallons down to 50-60 degrees quite easily with this load.

I has a friend in the appliance repair biz do mine. took him 30 minutes. He brazed in schrader valves while the unit was charged, sucked all of the refrigerant out. Cut the new coil in and recharged it.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 3, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> If your going to do any brazing recharging on a window unit. Build one of like this. This is a window AC with the evaporator replaced with a direct to water coaxial coil. You can even buy them with stainless steel coils although they are very expensive. I was getting ready to test the salt water version, which should be usable with nutes but am no longer using a chiller. Paid less than 50 bucks for 2 of the coils at a surplus yard.
> 
> I ran 3 fresca sols with 600 hps off of this 100 window unit from wal mart. I could bring 50 gallons down to 50-60 degrees quite easily with this load.
> 
> I has a friend in the appliance repair biz do mine. took him 30 minutes. He brazed in schrader valves while the unit was charged, sucked all of the refrigerant out. Cut the new coil in and recharged it.



+REP for a sweet DIY pic! Nice Budley.


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## F A B (Apr 4, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> +REP for a sweet DIY pic! Nice Budley.



fucking a sweet helps to have friends


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## Hucklberry (Apr 4, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> If your going to do any brazing recharging on a window unit. Build one of like this. This is a window AC with the evaporator replaced with a direct to water coaxial coil. You can even buy them with stainless steel coils although they are very expensive. I was getting ready to test the salt water version, which should be usable with nutes but am no longer using a chiller. Paid less than 50 bucks for 2 of the coils at a surplus yard.
> 
> I ran 3 fresca sols with 600 hps off of this 100 window unit from wal mart. I could bring 50 gallons down to 50-60 degrees quite easily with this load.
> 
> I has a friend in the appliance repair biz do mine. took him 30 minutes. He brazed in schrader valves while the unit was charged, sucked all of the refrigerant out. Cut the new coil in and recharged it.



Ditto on the Kudos! Two questions, First, why do they call the coils "Coaxial" and second Is "Schrader Valves" a brand name or a trade name for the recharge ports? If it's a brand name then what is the trade name for the valves? I don't want to look like a complete idiot when I go to the HVAC suppy house. Thanks again!


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## budleydoright (Apr 4, 2012)

In geometry, *coaxial* means that two or more forms share a common axis. So the tube in the tube qualify.

Tire valves are schrader valves. I believe it is a generic term now. They come in various sizes.

You want a braze in access port saddle. I've attached a picture of one, however the ones I have used are solid. The schrader doesn't thread into the saddle. You can braze the saddle onto the copper line, pierce and seal it at the same time.





This is what my coil looked like before install.





Here's a used coaxial exchanger I just found on ebay for 100 bucks. 1.5 HP. Slap this into a 18k window shaker from wal mart and you've got a 1.5 hp chiller for about 600 bucks. Do it for less with a craigs list AC. I just bought a year old 18k LG window shaker for 150 bucks!

Probably be easier to do with R22 which is no longer used. I understand the newer refrigerants are "Blends".


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## Hucklberry (Apr 4, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> In geometry, *coaxial* means that two or more forms share a common axis. So the tube in the tube qualify.
> 
> Tire valves are schrader valves. I believe it is a generic term now. They come in various sizes.
> 
> ...



The port saddle looks to me like they operate just like a fitting I used to attach a water line from the ice maker of my fridge to household water line main only brazed into place. I understand now about the coaxial coil looks like ones embedded next to the other (Side by Side). Could you explain a little bit further on the exchanger? It looks to be a coaxial unit also. I have the AC unit on hand 10,000 btu new only used one season. I just need the hardware, the coil and exchanger. I think I can pull this off. Starting my online hunt for the parts. Thanks again!


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## Hucklberry (Apr 4, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> If your going to do any brazing recharging on a window unit. Build one of like this. This is a window AC with the evaporator replaced with a direct to water coaxial coil. You can even buy them with stainless steel coils although they are very expensive. I was getting ready to test the salt water version, which should be usable with nutes but am no longer using a chiller. Paid less than 50 bucks for 2 of the coils at a surplus yard.
> 
> I ran 3 fresca sols with 600 hps off of this 100 window unit from wal mart. I could bring 50 gallons down to 50-60 degrees quite easily with this load.
> 
> I has a friend in the appliance repair biz do mine. took him 30 minutes. He brazed in schrader valves while the unit was charged, sucked all of the refrigerant out. Cut the new coil in and recharged it.


Another Question, 

How are you monitoring and controling the output temp of the waterlines? Stock control with an inline temp gauge? 

Sorry for back to back posts but I'm getting excited!


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## budleydoright (Apr 4, 2012)

Hucklberry said:


> The port saddle looks to me like they operate just like a fitting I used to attach a water line from the ice maker of my fridge to household water line main only brazed into place. I understand now about the coaxial coil looks like ones embedded next to the other (Side by Side). Could you explain a little bit further on the exchanger? It looks to be a coaxial unit also. I have the AC unit on hand 10,000 btu new only used one season. I just need the hardware, the coil and exchanger. I think I can pull this off. Starting my online hunt for the parts. Thanks again!



The exchanger is a copper tube, that has a steel jacket around it. There is a space between the two tubes which has a spiral twist to it. Refrigerant flows through this space, while the water flows through the copper tube. They can come in many sizes and shapes, and are often designed (like the ebay one) to wrap around their supporting components. So the 2 exchangers pictured are both coaxial, one is spiraled, the other is C shaped. I refer to the coil and exchanger , they are both the same. 
If I remember correctly, you can oversize the compressor and condensor quite a bit since the water is such a good conductor.

Now picture this, take the condensing coil (hot) out of a window shaker and replace it with a coaxial heat exchanger. You now have a water cooled air conditioner! You could heat the water in a hot tub nicely. 

I have the rough plans on how make a heat pump that will chill water and warm the air or warm the water and chill the air at the flick of a switch.

Added about 300 bucks in parts to the build, but what a sweet appliance to have in your arsenal. Perhaps I'll get to it someday, I have an extra coaxial coil and window shakers kicking around.


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## budleydoright (Apr 4, 2012)

Hucklberry said:


> Another Question,
> 
> How are you monitoring and controling the output temp of the waterlines? Stock control with an inline temp gauge?
> 
> Sorry for back to back posts but I'm getting excited!




Another Ebay find 25 bucks. i pulled the 2 wires that ran into the analog temp controller ran them into the relay on the controller. this way the controller only turns the compressor off, both exchangers still have power running them (fan/pump). It also has a compressor delay which is required. Only reads in celcius though.

and please don't sweat the posts, keep em coming. I'm pretty certain PhillipC's open to as much information in this thread as can fit! I spent lot's of time f'n with this stuff and enjoy sharing my experience.

Also, they make clamp on schraders for refrigerant almost exactly like the swamp cooler ones, just heavier duty. I was advised against their use. I was told they ALL eventually seep. 

DIY but do it right!


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## phillipchristian (Apr 4, 2012)

God damn Budley!! You are like McGyver.


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## Hucklberry (Apr 4, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> God damn Budley!! You are like McGyver.


But didn't McGyver save the world a couple times.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 4, 2012)

To me my growroom is the world!


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## budleydoright (Apr 5, 2012)

It's funny looking at how my kit evolved. started with a 1k in a cool tube air cooled, went to fresca sol and 100 gallons. Needed chiller instantly and didn't have the scratch or desire to spend so i made one out of an AC just by submerging the evaporator coil in the rez. Instant chiller. added a second fresca sol and then a third in a larger space have run a 6k and an 8k window shaker with the frescas. did 2 x 1k then 3 x 600. Setup a watercooled co2 burner utilizing a 100.00 propane water heater but had to quite using it, it put out too much too fast.

Now I have gone from a large box, to a room. I decided to go open hood. It is a 8 x 11' space with 8ft ceilings. I have 2 1k's and 2 600's. I'm on the fence on running 4-1ks or 6 or 8 600's. If I go 600's I'll have to go vertical bare bulb, as there wouldn't be room for that many hoods! Scored the 18k AC off of craigs list for 150. One season old. not enough for 4 k in the heat of the summer so I may drop to 3k.

Really liked the quiet that w/c brings to your room. I hate all of the fan noise and ducting. My current setup isn't to bad, the whine of the air cooled hoods makes it less than a tranquil experience IMHO. I like to sit and stare and toke and get lost in the dream!


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## cerberus (Apr 5, 2012)

sub'd to keep track of the thread. 

DIY water cooling now, and i am looking to go way out of the box in the next few months. I'm glad i found this thread.


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## Doer (Apr 11, 2012)

* "I like to sit and stare and toke and get lost in the dream!"

We who stare at weed, salute you! 

Watercooling is the way to go. Stick the AC coils in the water. Yep. I just used hose parts and a no-flo/no go sensor from Dwyers Instruments for $40.

What do you use for flow sensing? 

This summer, I will be experimenting with min-cooling tower set up in the bottom of the dis-used hot tub. Very dry around here, so that should work for 1/2 of
the time. It's a plumbing problem and needs a lot of check on at first. But now, it just runs.

What do you use for filtration and sterilization of the cooling water? I had a lot of problems till I sorted that out.
*


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## phillipchristian (Apr 11, 2012)

Doer said:


> * "I like to sit and stare and toke and get lost in the dream!"
> 
> We who stare at weed, salute you!
> 
> ...


Hey Does, thanks for stopping by and Welcome!

The chiller I have has a built in digital waterflow sensor on both reservoirs with an automatic shutoff if flow rates drop below a setpoint. Since they are sealed systems all I have to do is add 25% propylene glycol to the water in the reservoirs and there is no need for filtration or sterilization. I use R/O water and change out the water usually once a year.


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## Doer (Apr 11, 2012)

I see. I ended up borrowing an idea from outdoor ponds. Lava rocks support healthy biota that keeps the water polished well and I have a big filter bag over the sump pump. Water returns thru the box of rocks.

*"Refrigerant flows through this space, while the water flows through the copper tube."*

Counterflow cooling. This reminds me that a great source for this, good prices, etc, is the homebrewer DIY community.
The wort must be chilled very quickly past a certain temp, or bacteria will take over. 

The backyard guys will braze a 6 ft tall, 2 ft across coil, if that's your need. Immersion or counter-flow.
Need SSRs for failsafe relays? The backyard cooker, oil fired heat...all the DIY stuff is cheaper.


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2012)

This is a hellova thread. I have seen only one reference to a geothermal concept. Is the 55F water not cold enough to do much? I'm looking at 3000w to cool in a basement. I could bury coils easily. Seems like such a "green" thing to consider.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 11, 2012)

Rrog said:


> This is a hellova thread. I have seen only one reference to a geothermal concept. Is the 55F water not cold enough to do much? I'm looking at 3000w to cool in a basement. I could bury coils easily. Seems like such a "green" thing to consider.


Hey Rrog, welcome. There is a BUNCH of DIY chiller and geothermal info in the thread. Maybe some of it got erased with the hack last month.

Need more info on exactly what you plan on doing with these coils. Are you going to be using them to cool a chiller reservoir? Or are you just going to run coils in the ground recirculating through your room? What are you hooking the coils up to; heat exchangers or water cooled equipment? Can't really comment on whether your idea will work or not till I can see what type of load you are putting on it.


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## Gyroscope (Apr 11, 2012)

Hello phillipchristian, 
This is a very interesting thread. If a person wanted to try geo thermal, what would be better to bury - coils, a holding tank, or runs of pipe ?


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## cerberus (Apr 12, 2012)

Rrog said:


> This is a hellova thread. I have seen only one reference to a geothermal concept. Is the 55F water not cold enough to do much? I'm looking at 3000w to cool in a basement. I could bury coils easily. Seems like such a "green" thing to consider.



55 is the right temp. i thought we had talked about geothermal heat sinking before, but i guess not. 

I have thought about adding a geothermal unit to my cooling (I'm building a house that has a geothermal heat sink compenent, w/ passive solar and wind), but for me, i'm hoping my giant rez burried 10 ffet in the ground will act a s ageothermal heat sink.

great topic, good call.


green hell, its cheaper


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2012)

PC, I read every post in this thread and there was only one reference from someone that they buried a coil. As you say, maybe there was more before the dump. I have maybe 3000-4000W of lights to cool. Separate Veg and Flower rooms. Doing soil so no res. No CO2. Just the lights and ballasts. In a basement.

I could easily sink some coils and circulate the 55F coolant through the system, but don't know if it would be effective connected to a radiator. Some of my warmed air in the grow rooms would be blown into the rest of the cooler basement, and I would also pull the cooler air in as supply air for the grow rooms. The geothermal idea was to simply augment that.


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2012)

cerberus said:


> 55 is the right temp. i thought we had talked about geothermal heat sinking before, but i guess not.
> 
> I have thought about adding a geothermal unit to my cooling (I'm building a house that has a geothermal heat sink compenent, w/ passive solar and wind), but for me, i'm hoping my giant rez burried 10 ffet in the ground will act a s ageothermal heat sink.
> 
> ...


You and I are in the exact same boat. I'm looking at all of these energy sources also.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 12, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Hello phillipchristian,
> This is a very interesting thread. If a person wanted to try geo thermal, what would be better to bury - coils, a holding tank, or runs of pipe ?


Hey Gyro, welcome to the thread. I really think it would depend on ambient temp where you live and what kind of heat load you were trying to take out of your room. If you were doing a small load like 1-2 lights then I think coils would be best but if you were trying to do a large load that included cooling ambient room temps then I think you'd need a tank. Like I sad though it will depend on other factors.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 12, 2012)

cerberus said:


> 55 is the right temp. i thought we had talked about geothermal heat sinking before, but i guess not.
> 
> I have thought about adding a geothermal unit to my cooling (I'm building a house that has a geothermal heat sink compenent, w/ passive solar and wind), but for me, i'm hoping my giant rez burried 10 ffet in the ground will act a s ageothermal heat sink.
> 
> ...


A bunch of it got erased with the hack. Budley had put up some cool info but I guess it got erased.


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## Doer (Apr 12, 2012)

I think with Geotherm, it's better to run field loops, like you put in a septic field, but deeper. The ground is a big sink and if you change the temp of a smaller mass like with a buried coil,the soil mass tends to go to the average temp of the coil. Now the soil is an insulator. A big tank is different. Then water mass is big enough to equalize itself to the earth.

So, coils are the opposite of fields. Coils are for low mass quick change like beer wort. Fields are for long run, slow change over a large mass. However, there is nothing to say the "field" can't be vertical.

This a 4 line vertical field 150 feet deep. It's a whole house system in Canada. So, it's pretty easy to calculate the need per watt to sink. 3 lines, 40 feet deep might be plenty?


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## Doer (Apr 12, 2012)

I just thought of a great Idea!!! I'll share it with youse first. I've been wondering for a long time how to use the cold city water. I just removed a solar system that was pre-heating the hot water heater. Panels were bad, but the plumbing is still there. 

Here's where a simple coil can be used. For me, I would plump the city water entry thru my light res first before the hot water heater. That way any usage of water in the house, cools the res AND saves the heat into the hot water heater. Pretty cool, huh? That's a green approach. That why I like this forum. I get ideas.

There may be places, like Dallas, where the city water is too warm in summer. Also, DIY pool cooling in Dallas summer is where i got the idea of min-cooling towers if you are using a hot tub as a heat sink.


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2012)

Doer, I like your idea a lot. Very smart. I don't use a res, but perhaps there's a way to do some of this with what I'm doing. I will have to investigate.

I've been reading up on geothermal. Fascinating. I'm looking at having geoT installed for the house, so I'll have a component run over to the grow rooms. Still venting into the rest of the basement, but I'll have the basement on it's own zone so if it gets warm, the main house system will compensate.

Would 55F water passing through these light cooler tube systems do anything, or is that a futile effort with minimal gains?


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## Doer (Apr 12, 2012)

55!? I work with 62 min to 78 at lights out 1000w, 100gal, 12 hr cycle. At 55, the world is your oyster!  Condensation on the light tube can be a problem. But, that indicates the room humidity is too high, I think.


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm assuming my deep soil temp where the coils would be is 55F. Aren't these light cooling sleeves running chilled water? Like 40F or such?


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## phillipchristian (Apr 12, 2012)

I think you guys are talking about heat exchangers and Ice Boxes. You could use 65 degree water in these things to remove heat from your grow room. The only concern is the tubing that you use to supply them. You have to use a dewpoint calculator to see what is the minimum temp you can have in your water withough creating condensation on your lines. Usually, depending on your humidity and room temps, it falls somewhere between 58 and 65 degrees. If your water is below dewpoint then you are going to have a lot of moisture on your supply lines which is a huge problem. My chiller has 2 reservoirs and pumps built in just for this issue. 1 reservoir is kept at 45 degrees and feeds the air handlers via tubing that is plumbed from the outside so condensation is not an issue. Tubing runs underground, then up the outside wall of the building and then through the wall and into the air handler. The other reservoir is kept at 58 degrees because it actually supplies manifold lines which run through my room to wort coils, Co2 generators, dehumidifier, and a few Ice Box I have for supplemental cooling in spot areas.


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2012)

So fluid circulating through the light sleeves, etc is above the dew point. So the geo-cooled water may in fact have to be warmed slightly


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## NickNasty (Apr 12, 2012)

Rrog with heat exchangers and air handlers the water can be as cool as u want because condensation will not be a problem but with ice boxes you want to make sure those are above dew point because they are attached to your hoods and you don't want condensation around your lights.


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## Doer (Apr 12, 2012)

Well, I'm talking about primary sink. It's 100 gal, black, in shade. It wouldn't freeze at the winter temps we get. It radiates at night so the morning temp is back to 62-63.

No need to run 40F in the sleeves. And that would place a 40F spot of descending cold air over the plants. In the summer, it would be nice to run a 55F ground surface loop, under the house, but, I'll use a secondary sink and cooling tower.


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## Doer (Apr 12, 2012)

Rrog said:


> So fluid circulating through the light sleeves, etc is above the dew point. So the geo-cooled water may in fact have to be warmed slightly


No need to use geo-therm in the primary loop. A lot of this is about mass volumes, flow rates vs surface areas, etc. Safe to say a heat exchange into the ground loop is all your primary sink needs. Primary could be just 20 gals, maybe.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 12, 2012)

NickNasty said:


> Rrog with heat exchangers and air handlers the water can be as cool as u want because condensation will not be a problem but with ice boxes you want to make sure those are above dew point because they are attached to your hoods and you don't want condensation around your lights.


Hey Nick. Ice Boxes are heat exchangers. Secondly you need to be worried about dew point on anything (sleeves, ice boxes, Co2 generators) that is water cooled and in your grow room. Condensation on equipment and supply line is a primary concern. Whether it be the manifold lines, an Ice Box bein used as a spot chiller, or even a wort coil; you need to keep that water above dew point or you will have issues.


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## cerberus (Apr 12, 2012)

Doer said:


> Well, I'm talking about primary sink. It's 100 gal, black, in shade. It wouldn't freeze at the winter temps we get. It radiates at night so the morning temp is back to 62-63.
> 
> No need to run 40F in the sleeves. And that would place a 40F spot of descending cold air over the plants. In the summer, it would be nice to run a 55F ground surface loop, under the house, but, I'll use a secondary sink and cooling tower.



do yourself a favour and burry it. if you put it at the frost line you have essential a can sellar which is a constant 50ish degree's. yo'll have the added beni of the thermal mass of the earth around it, rather than just free standing.


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## Doer (Apr 14, 2012)

cerberus said:


> do yourself a favour and burry it. if you put it at the frost line you have essential a can cellar which is a constant 50ish degree's. yo'll have the added beni of the thermal mass of the earth around it, rather than just free standing.


I would, but, I'm adverse to digging.  Actually, It's far, far from a cellar. It's a very low, belly crawl space. And what they call a residental lot around here, forgetaboutit. At least I'm not in an association, with restriction, but it would be a problem to bring in.....well, there are those two man augers.
We don't have a frost line more than a couple of inches;.o

I could just sink the primary 3/4s into the dirt. That would keep it from gaining from OATemp. Then with the city water plumped thru.....
probably worth the digging. thanks.


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## Rrog (Apr 14, 2012)

I can dig the trench 5' deep and use standard domestic geothermal materials. Methanol + water or such. I'll do some component for the house while I'm at it to spread out the costs. Ultimately, that's one hellova resource that I can't ignore.


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## Doer (Apr 14, 2012)

You are right about that. And the way these utility bills are going, every little bit counts. The wife has nixed solar and wind, for the visual degradation, but, it might be part of an all sources plan in the future. I used the rebate to put in a super-high efficiency, HVAC, but still, with the rate tiers.....<sob>

I found this DIY rig. He made a water drill, went down 13 feet, I guess, then trenched between.
http://ecorenovator.org/diy-ground-source-heat-pump/

I suppose there are on-line calculators to size these efforts. Happen to know any rules of thumb?


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## Rrog (Apr 14, 2012)

I've dumped solar and wind due to the overly-lengthy payback. A DIY Geothermal pays for itself much sooner.


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## budleydoright (Apr 14, 2012)

My idea was to use a water to air heat exchanger with a large ducted fan outdoors, as well as another one indoors. Put these on a pump circuit and a well insulated rez. Now my temps most of the year are below 60 especially in the evening when there would be a load on it. Even in the heat of the summer the evening are cool, although I'm sure a chiller would be required during the summer. Fall thru spring though, The air is quite cold at night.

I know HI makes a compressorless chiller which is a basically what I'm thinking.


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## cerberus (Apr 14, 2012)

yeah man. the HI compressorless is exactly what your describing. radiators on three sides and a giant fan on top, pull air over the radiator. nothing more. you could build it with HONDA radiators (for 45& on ebay) a fan, and a whole in the ground for geothermal insulation..


your idea is on point, go and be fruitful! lol


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## budleydoright (Apr 14, 2012)

But without the need for tonage, seems just a good sized air/water heat exchanger ducted to a single fan would work. Ebay for under 200.


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## NickNasty (Apr 14, 2012)

Anybody got any links or info on how to figure out how much water it would take to cool a 5000 watt room with no chiller with the water naturally being around 60-65 degrees? I have a old water cistern in my house that is roughly 6x6x4 ft that I'm thinking of lining with pond liner I think it holds around 1000 gallons but I am bad with math so that could be off and 2 of its walls are attached to the walls of my basement so it stays pretty cool. Anyways I am basically trying to figure out if I could use this to cool my room without a chiller.


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## Doer (Apr 14, 2012)

Fresca Sol claims 100gals per 1000w. So, it seems the 1000 gals +/-, should easily sink 5000w, right?


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## budleydoright (Apr 15, 2012)

Doer said:


> Fresca Sol claims 100gals per 1000w. So, it seems the 1000 gals +/-, should easily sink 5000w, right?


100 gallons in a steel drum in a 60 degree room maybe! My single fresca could take 100 gallons to well over 100 degrees in a few hours.

Do you have the platinum or the original fresca?


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## Doer (Apr 16, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> 100 gallons in a steel drum in a 60 degree room maybe! My single fresca could take 100 gallons to well over 100 degrees in a few hours.
> 
> Do you have the platinum or the original fresca?


Just a regular Sol, but, you are right, I haven't tried in summer, where the nights don't get cool. We go 50 max over night, year round.
But, with the city water plumbed thru, maybe that will hold day heat down. 

For folks that don't know. A Sol will run fine at 100 degrees, but that a 100 degree hot spot over the plants.


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## budleydoright (Apr 16, 2012)

They do work great even with 100 degree water, make sure to use a pump that can handle the heat. Also in my original frescas, the powder coating between the glass started flaking off.

I'm not dissing on the frescas, I like them a lot. I just made a lot of mistakes with them, if I share them with you, it may make your road less bumpy.

I used RO water in one of them not knowing better. Tap water is better. I never used any glycol. I'm pretty sure that would have solved the powder coating issue. Once there is metal exposed. all of the different metals in your system are now connected through water and will start to interact with each other. I believe glycol will also reduce this interaction.

Test your no flow switch weekly, mine failed and I have heard of others failing as well. I used a high temp cut off as well. If my room went over 90 everthing heat producing is cut, as this indicates a failure.

Use a larger diameter drian line than your supply line, this will create negative pressure in the fixture. If you do develop a leak anywhere, air will leak in, instead of water leaking out. Do not use any type of vinyl hose, the heat will make it soft and it will collapse. I purchased a 50' roll of US made Goodyear reinforced rubber hose. I get it at harbor freight, it is 1/2" ID air compressor hose.

The rules of proper lighting still apply, if your running a 1k you still need to have 30+ inches between the light and canopy. You can reduce this distance alot more than an air cooled but you will fry your plants if you try to run it 6-12" off the canopy like it has been suggested in their advertising.


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## Doer (Apr 16, 2012)

budleydoright said:


> They do work great even with 100 degree water, make sure to use a pump that can handle the heat. Also in my original frescas, the powder coating between the glass started flaking off.
> 
> I'm not dissing on the frescas, I like them a lot. I just made a lot of mistakes with them, if I share them with you, it may make your road less bumpy.
> 
> ...


Right on. This totally matches my experience. I haven't boiled out a Sol, yet. But, when the flow switch fails.....The Dwyers Instruments device
I use is a reed switch on a paddle. The water flow closes the switch by pushing the paddle. No push, no light.


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## kizphilly (Apr 16, 2012)

my brother was telling me about this but i finally got everthing working the way i want and i aint gonna let him fuck wit it lol


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## Doer (Apr 17, 2012)

...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## budleydoright (Apr 17, 2012)

I was running 3 of them (frescas) had a piece of powder coat break free and plug the waterflow. the water heated very rapidly and at some point the obstruction was cleared. Hot glass and cold water, well you can guess what happened next. I'll tell you hanging that pump off a bungee just deep enough to operate kept me from pumping the whole rez (100 gallons) into my upstairs grow. Fortunately the pump wasn't deep enough to pump out more that 10 gallons which my liner contained.


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## NickNasty (Apr 17, 2012)

Doer said:


> Fresca Sol claims 100gals per 1000w. So, it seems the 1000 gals +/-, should easily sink 5000w, right?


So is this the consensus that the 1000 gal with no chiller should be enough to keep cool a 5000w room?


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## phillipchristian (Apr 17, 2012)

Depends on the ambient temps outside and the ability of your holding tank to transfer heat from itself to the ground. Also, with a Fresca you are removing the heat from the bulb. You still need to cool the ambiant temps from the room and the other equipment in there. This is the biggest mistake I see guys make with Fresca's and Ice Boxes. They think adding 1 to their light means they don't need any other cooling. This is incorrect. You still need to cool the room and the other heat producing equipment.


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## NickNasty (Apr 17, 2012)

I am bare bulb so it will be to cool my room not my bulbs my cistern is made out of concrete its in my basement and 2 of its walls are foundation walls its also in the coolest spot in my basement its walled off from my veg/flower rooms. Also my ballasts are in a crawl space so no heat from those and I will probably have a dehumidifier


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## phillipchristian (Apr 17, 2012)

Depends on how many and what size your lights are then. Also on the size of your room and dehumidifier. All of them have heat that need to be cooled back to ambient temps or just above if your room is cool naturally. Will be much more efficient to have 2 heat exchangers in your room than 1.


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## cerberus (Apr 18, 2012)

NickNasty said:


> I am bare bulb so it will be to cool my room not my bulbs my cistern is made out of concrete its in my basement and 2 of its walls are foundation walls its also in the coolest spot in my basement its walled off from my veg/flower rooms. Also my ballasts are in a crawl space so no heat from those and I will probably have a dehumidifier



?

do you have any fans? pumps? dehumid? etc in the room, their motors generate heat. plants generate heat (especially big healthy ones) just closed spaces generate heat (i don't know how, but all BTU rating charts account for empty space too)

just because the bulbs are bare does not mean you don't have other heating factors

you wanna over size your A/c everything else i am not for 'bigger is better' menatality but for A/c yes. if you think you need a ton get 1.5 tons.


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## Doer (Apr 18, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Depends on the ambient temps outside and the ability of your holding tank to transfer heat from itself to the ground. Also, with a Fresca you are removing the heat from the bulb. You still need to cool the ambiant temps from the room and the other equipment in there. This is the biggest mistake I see guys make with Fresca's and Ice Boxes. They think adding 1 to their light means they don't need any other cooling. This is incorrect. You still need to cool the room and the other heat producing equipment.


Right, the Fresca won't sink all the lamps heat either. A portion, say 20%, radiates as infrared and heats up the hood, walls, etc.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 18, 2012)

Doer said:


> Right, the Fresca won't sink all the lamps heat either. A portion, say 20%, radiates as infrared and heats up the hood, walls, etc.


Yea, I've never used the Fresca's. The Ice Box with a correctly sized chiller will actually take away 100% of a 1000w bulbs heat. You can lay your face on the glass under the bulb. I'll have to test it again sometime soon but I am pretty sure the exhaust air was actually slightly below ambient as well.


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## Doer (Apr 18, 2012)

yeah, just depends on the water temp. The fixture can be used to cool the room if the water is chilled.
But, I still get some ifrarred. What is different about the Ice Box, I wonder. I need to look into it.
I plan on going to 2000w by adding another fixture soon.


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## phillipchristian (Apr 18, 2012)

Doer said:


> yeah, just depends on the water temp. The fixture can be used to cool the room if the water is chilled.
> But, I still get some ifrarred. What is different about the Ice Box, I wonder. I need to look into it.
> I plan on going to 2000w by adding another fixture soon.


Do you still use a fan when you are using a Fresca? I'm not sure but I don't think so. With an Ice Box you are using a fan and therefore exhausting that air out of the vent. Even the infrared and radiant heat from the hood. I was actually surprised myself when I first set up an Ice Box. Chiller water was 64 at the time till I later got the system down to 60 degree water by reducing the humidty and temps slightly in the room. This lowered my dewpoint and therefore let me lower my chiller. When I got it to 60 the air coming out was cooler than the ambient temp in the room. Not by much though. If you had 2 in a line I bet you would be adding some cooling to the room.

My buddies got 1 on an HPS in his flower room right now (8x8 tent) and he says the other one that is a spot chiller is never on. Maybe 5-10 minutes an hour. And he lives in a warm climate.


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## Doer (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh, you gotta use fans. Exhaust and circulation fans. Bringing in pre-cooled air is the best way to go. The infrared radiates thru the air without heating it much. It illuminates all the surfaces and heats those. Then those heat the air.


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## Doer (Apr 20, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> Do you still use a fan when you are using a Fresca? I'm not sure but I don't think so. With an Ice Box you are using a fan and therefore exhausting that air out of the vent. Even the infrared and radiant heat from the hood. I was actually surprised myself when I first set up an Ice Box. Chiller water was 64 at the time till I later got the system down to 60 degree water by reducing the humidty and temps slightly in the room. This lowered my dewpoint and therefore let me lower my chiller. When I got it to 60 the air coming out was cooler than the ambient temp in the room. Not by much though. If you had 2 in a line I bet you would be adding some cooling to the room.
> 
> My buddies got 1 on an HPS in his flower room right now (8x8 tent) and he says the other one that is a spot chiller is never on. Maybe 5-10 minutes an hour. And he lives in a warm climate.


It's always been my hope I could use the Frescas to pull heat from the room, also. Just haven't got there yet. I had an old AC set up in the water,
but over bend a line and lost the Freon. Cheaper just to buy another one.


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## skiweeds (Apr 20, 2012)

phillipchristian said:


> I wanted to start a thread on water cooled grow rooms. From cooling a tent to a large commercial grow. I've been doing it for a long time and I wanted to share my knowledge and experience with anyone who had questions. I know it's not for everyone and every climate but I am glad to help those out that are interested.


your exactly the person i need. i have 4 600ws and a hydrogen pro co2 gen. drain to waste was using over 100 gals of water a day so i plan on recircing in a 55gal tank. i live in upper michigan so we get very cold winters which i love for grows, and very hot and humid summers, a growers nightmare when using as many lights as i do in a small room. my room is 8x9x8. i run natural gas so i dont worry about wasting co2. right now for my cold air i got a 6 inch inline fan that kicks on and blows in outside air anytime i gets too hot inside. when summer comes i was going to get an AC but im thinking of getting a chiller with some ice boxes. my hoods are all sealed. they pull air from outside my room and push it right outside. i have an exhaust fan run 15 minutes every hour to get rid of stale air. i want to keep my room in the high 80s to about 90F to prevent powdery mildew from forming. what size chiller would you think i need? i talked to a guy at hyro innovations and he said probably a 1hp should work but a 2 ton would definately work. he said maybe 2-4 ice boxes. he said its kind of hard to say to be for sure because i havent done a summer grow yet with this much heat being generated. i know you can put the ice boxes between your lights but since mine is just straight up exhausting outside would i really need them between lights? i was just thinking mounting on the wall or angle them up from the floor. i know you can even put one between your carbon filter and inline fan to save the cost of running a fan. thank you so much


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## phillipchristian (Apr 20, 2012)

skiweeds said:


> your exactly the person i need. i have 4 600ws and a hydrogen pro co2 gen. drain to waste was using over 100 gals of water a day so i plan on recircing in a 55gal tank. i live in upper michigan so we get very cold winters which i love for grows, and very hot and humid summers, a growers nightmare when using as many lights as i do in a small room. my room is 8x9x8. i run natural gas so i dont worry about wasting co2. right now for my cold air i got a 6 inch inline fan that kicks on and blows in outside air anytime i gets too hot inside. when summer comes i was going to get an AC but im thinking of getting a chiller with some ice boxes. my hoods are all sealed. they pull air from outside my room and push it right outside. i have an exhaust fan run 15 minutes every hour to get rid of stale air. i want to keep my room in the high 80s to about 90F to prevent powdery mildew from forming. what size chiller would you think i need? i talked to a guy at hyro innovations and he said probably a 1hp should work but a 2 ton would definately work. he said maybe 2-4 ice boxes. he said its kind of hard to say to be for sure because i havent done a summer grow yet with this much heat being generated. i know you can put the ice boxes between your lights but since mine is just straight up exhausting outside would i really need them between lights? i was just thinking mounting on the wall or angle them up from the floor. i know you can even put one between your carbon filter and inline fan to save the cost of running a fan. thank you so much


Hey bud, welcome to the thread. 

I would say you are right in that you don't need them in between your lights. The only reason to do that would be if you want to completely seal your room. I'm going to be hones with you; getting Ice Boxes as an alternative to a/c in your case will actually end up costing you a lot more. And with the additional fans & pumps that you will have to run I'm not sure it will even be more efficient electrically. I'd recommend the a/c in your situation because a 1hp chiller is going to run you around $700 for a EcoPlus one and then $200-$400 in Ice Boxes plus fans, tubing, thermostat controllers, and a water pump. You are probably looking at around $1500. You can get a good portable dual hose a/c for $500.

If you decide to go the chiller router then it's hard for me to say as well how much cooling you will need for your room. It's always good to play it safe so I think you would be good with 2 8" Ice Box, 2 inline fans, 1 thermostat controller (have 1 Ice Box run all the time); a 30-50 gallon reservoir and a multiport 1/2hp pump. In this case I would say a 3/4hp chiller should be enough. If you are looking to expand in the future maybe or also run your Co2 generator and possible a nutrient reservoir coil then I'd suggest a 1hp unit.


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## ejbarraza (Apr 21, 2012)

Really like this thread....lots of info


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## phillipchristian (Apr 21, 2012)

ejbarraza said:


> Really like this thread....lots of info


Thanks man. It's a collective of a bunch of cool guys just sharing info and kicking ideas around. No egos. Swing by anytime.


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## Sir.Ganga (Apr 21, 2012)

woodsmaneh! said:


> View attachment 2064662View attachment 2064663


Thats the set up I use for my ez-cloner I have mounted my pump on top of a small fridge and circulate the water through my cloners. Works great keeps my temps at 72 all year. Perfect for cloning.


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## Doer (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm always after more reasonable prices than the cannabis or hydroponic outfits offer. I just found a trove of good stuff in Aqua Culture.

AquaticEco.com 

All kinds of ideas in their catalog. I was just looking at an air dryer tube with rechargeable desiccant for $70


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## phillipchristian (Apr 22, 2012)

This thing looks pretty cool (http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/112/Coolworks-Ice-Probe). Only $134. Could help chill nutrient reservoirs without a chiller or all of the pumps and crap.


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## Doer (Apr 22, 2012)

I have some Thermoelectirc gear I'm experimenting with. It's not that efficient but, very a very small and simple tech. I have an air intake pre-cooler w/160w TEC on a water block. But, I have to sink enormous heat. Much more than the Fresca. The TEC will heat that 100 gals to 90 degrees in about 2 hrs. But, just an experiment. It works much better in water like that Ice Probe.

In a res the I.P. will work better than in an Aquarium, if you insulate the res.


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## Living The Dream (May 10, 2012)

gotta get this thread back up


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## Godfather420 (Aug 21, 2012)

phillip... Setting up my dream grow right now. 12 600 watters. Debating between cost efficiency of and initial cost of 4ton chiller and air handler and 36,000 btu minisplit. installation of either is no bigs. running a sealed room right now with 80 degree ambient air outside and an 18,000 btu mini-split . I've got 3 lights turned off and I'm sitting at 82 degrees. I need more cooling.


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## Godfather420 (Aug 21, 2012)

question is, you still got the hook up thru chill king?


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Aug 21, 2012)

Godfather420 said:


> question is, you still got the hook up thru chill king?


hey godfather. this is my new account. what kind of chiller are you looking for? compressorless? self contained? compact? etc... i can still point you in the right direction and get you a discount on one for sure. not sure if 4 tons will be enough for that many lights. will depend on how you are running them (i.e. air cooled, exhausted, bare bulb) and how you are setting the sytem up (i.e. matching water cooled air handler, ice boxes, other water cooled equipment, etc...). let me know.


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## KrAzY80 (Sep 1, 2012)

Just finished reading this whole thread and it is the most information I have found on water cooling in one thread. You all know your shit. I am a Hvac tech and have alot of equipment and the know how to set up just about anything but I lack creativity and I tend to over complicate things. I am going to throw out some ideas here and would love it if someone could push me in the right direction.

I been running my a 1600w air cooled grow for 2 years now circulating through my basement with no problems and no a/c. I am closing on a house in 2 weeks and I am going to build 2 sealed grow room within a room in the basement as soon as I move in. I would like to be operational within a few days and my bro is carpenter so that end is taken care of. 
Equipment - 1000w hps flower sealed hood "optional 400w hps or mh addition"
- 600w hps veg sealed hood
- water cooled co2 gen and sensor "havent purchased yet in case I dont need water cooled

I am looking for the most efficient and simple method to cool these 2 rooms keeping them sealed. I have a 25,000btu commercial ice maker that I have turned into a chiller with a 35 gal rez. I just dropped the heat sink from the ice maker into the rez and it chills the water quick. I have ran a few test with a modified a/c coil and it has alot of cooling capability. So my question is what would I need to cool 2 4x4 rooms for veg and flower as far as ice boxes or heat exchangers. Everything I have read has been on a larger scale than what I am working with. I have made 2 heat exchangers out of a 2 ton air handler a/c coil to water cooled that I can use as well.

I am just not sure as what I will need to cool the rooms. I have been thinking of purchasing a couple of 6" ice boxes from hydro innovations for the hood and spot cool. My diy chiller has a water jacket condenser coil on it that connects to potable water to remove heat "drain to waste" and optional fan above it to cool so it can be located indoors but I dont like the idea of paying for water to cool my chiller. 

I also have 2 portable 9000 btu air conditioners with the single exhaust at my disposal and a 18000 btu window unit at my disposal. I would prefer to use these portable units but having a sealed room is a must for me and dont see a way to use these without exhausting hot air without exhausting my rooms but they can be used as dehumidifiers to. I thought of maybe putting a 2x4 room in between flower and veg and circulating the hoods into their to cool them or using it as a lung room since they both will be using the same co2 burner. I can locate ballast, chiller, and co2 burner outside of these rooms without heat buildup being an issue especially since winter is on its way. 

So with this info hopefully someone can give me some ideas on what is the best route to take to keep both rooms sealed and cooled to around 80 degrees whether it be using my a/cs or diy chiller. I have a intex sand filter pump for a 10000gal pool that I modified for the chiller as well. I am open to anything and I have about 1000 dollar budget for fans, controllers, heat exchangers etc. for the project as well.


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## subcool fan (Sep 11, 2012)

i built my system off of a thread on grasscity. i had no idea all of this info was out and about. so my video is a little bit presumptuous to say the least.... i was excited to finally have it running. anyways... here is a video on what to do and it works. i will probably be switching over to an air handler in the coming months. but this does work. 11k chiller cools 4200 watts with my hvac helping out. my goal is to go 18k and not have to rely on the hvac so much. but anyways... maybe this vid on how i did it will help you out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A10GS_F_Nc


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## berkman858 (Sep 13, 2012)

This thread is great! I just got done reading it and have formulated some ideas that I would like to run by you guys.

Current setup:


(1) 5x5 tent with 1000 watt light 
4 bucket undercurrent hydro setup with ~17 gallon capacity 
dehumidifier 
CO2 from bottle (no heat issues here but I will probably want to change out to water cooled CO2 generator in the future) 
 
My current temps are 88-90 degrees in the tent and with CO2 the plants seem to be doing fine but I know the temps should be cooler. I plan on setting up another 5x5 in the same area, my garage, and instead of buying a mini-split A/C I was thinking I could do better with a 1 1/2 HP chiller. This is what I am thinking.



1 1/2 HP Ecoplus commercial grade chiller 
1 icebox for each 1000 watt light (2 total) - air is drawn from outside of tent and exhausted back outside the tent but I want to reduce the temperature of my garage 
1 wort chiller for each reservoir (2 total) 
1 icebox/canfan combo as spot chiller in each tent (2 total) 
 
I only want to get the temps down to around 80-83 degrees so that plant transpiration stays high and works well with the enhanced CO2.
Do you guys think that a 1 1/2 HP chiller will be enough for this equipment? Also, what air temps do you guys usually aim for when running a sealed room with CO2?


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## subcool fan (Sep 13, 2012)

18 might be a little bit much. i dont like my chiller cutting off and on all of the time. it wears it out. and there is no way for it to freeze up unless that rez gets really low on water. my homemade almost 1hp unit with all of its flaws is able to keep up with 3k lights and have the room stay in the 78 to 80 range (depending on if hvac is on) with it being on 13 hours a day non stop. it works flawlessly. once the temps drop... there wont be near as much usage to keep the water (nutes) chilled. i assume you saw the video linked above your post.

my silicone is chilling right now in my 1.5 hp unti that i am building out. if you want. i will be doing a pretty detailed diy of how to to the big chillers on your own in a couple of days with lots of pics. i can also test out running only 2k lights and such so you can know exactly what it will do.

if i were you and in your situation.. i wouldnt go any bigger than a 1.25horse. if they make such a thing. if they dont then i would snag a 1hp. either one of those sizes will kee you at 110v also. using less electricity. and dont buy a 55 gallon rez. thats too much for it to keep up with. keep it at 25 gall. maybe even twenty. .<-- my personal opinion is, that is the leading cause of so many peeps failing with their chiller. but thats just me. i am sure there are others that feel differently. but keep in mind my setup defies everyones' formulas on how many btu you need. the formulas around here total me out to 42k btu. and i know i can do it for 18k. cause i am almost doing it with the 11k. now running 4200 wats in lights alone. also make sure you have one or two iceboxes at the end to cool the air down. its much more efficient than a normal a/c. if you are the diy type... i made my ice boxes for thirty bucks a piece. if you want info... its pretty easy. just ask.

be well,
-needa


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## ikickbutt (Sep 14, 2012)

* "either one of those sizes will kee you at 110v also. using less electricity.*"
if using less electricity is something to consider, it's the amperage drawn you pay for. for example, a 110Volt unit may draw 8 amps, and a 208 Volt may draw 4, the 208 one will cost ya less money on your electricity bill. that applies to lighting as well. less amps= less money.


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## subcool fan (Sep 14, 2012)

ikickbutt said:


> * "either one of those sizes will kee you at 110v also. using less electricity.*"
> if using less electricity is something to consider, it's the amperage drawn you pay for. for example, a 110Volt unit may draw 8 amps, and a 208 Volt may draw 4, the 208 one will cost ya less money on your electricity bill. that applies to lighting as well. less amps= less money.


over here in the states we pay by the killawatt hour. not by the amp. the whol save lots of money thing is a myth. the only money you save going 220 vs 110 is the energy leakage from the copper wires that go from the breaker to the plug. 

in other words... you might save five or ten bucks a year. maybe. look at the back of the machine. read the amps/watts it is pulling. that is how much electricity you will be using. if it says less on the sticker you will be paying less on your bill.


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## ikickbutt (Sep 15, 2012)

uhhm yeah, up here in canada we also pay for kilowatt hours. watts are simply voltage times amperage and we could get into single phase vs. 3 phase but i attempted to keep things simple. not everyone is an electrician(which i am). the whole point was higher voltage=less current used=less money on your bill. but this is getting off topic...


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## subcool fan (Sep 15, 2012)

ikickbutt said:


> uhhm yeah, up here in canada we also pay for kilowatt hours. watts are simply voltage times amperage and we could get into single phase vs. 3 phase but i attempted to keep things simple. not everyone is an electrician(which i am). the whole point was higher voltage=less current used=less money on your bill. but this is getting off topic...


Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. It might be off topic, but it is important that the wrong information doesn't prevail. The watts are still the same. The amps are split between the two 110s yes... but put the two lines together and you are back at full price. As I said... thicker wires leach less heat. So they save you a few pennies over the course of the year. And three phase?.. that has more to do with keeping heavy duty crap from burning out. And has absolutely zero to do with saving money. The only thing that makes the added cost of running three phase worth the price of install.. is your equipment will last longer. And I am not an electrician.


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## 777MedicineMan (Oct 14, 2012)

just wondering if phillipchristian is still active. Had some questions.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 15, 2012)

777MedicineMan said:


> just wondering if phillipchristian is still active. Had some questions.


i'm still here. just have a new account now. what's your question?


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## Brother Numsi (Oct 15, 2012)

Hey, Mon. When will you be home? Hope you are continuing to have a good time.


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## berkman858 (Oct 15, 2012)

*Scooby - I posted this earlier, can you take a look at it and let me know what you think? Thanks!



Current setup:



(1) 5x5 tent with 1000 watt light
4 bucket undercurrent hydro setup with ~17 gallon capacity
dehumidifier
CO2 from bottle (no heat issues here but I will probably want to change out to water cooled CO2 generator in the future)


My current temps are 88-90 degrees in the tent and with CO2 the plants seem to be doing fine but I know the temps should be cooler. I plan on setting up another 5x5 in the same area, my garage, and instead of buying a mini-split A/C I was thinking I could do better with a 1 1/2 HP chiller. This is what I am thinking.




1 1/2 HP Ecoplus commercial grade chiller
1 icebox for each 1000 watt light (2 total) - air is drawn from outside of tent and exhausted back outside the tent but I want to reduce the temperature of my garage
1 wort chiller for each reservoir (2 total)
1 icebox/canfan combo as spot chiller in each tent (2 total)


I only want to get the temps down to around 80-83 degrees so that plant transpiration stays high and works well with the enhanced CO2.
Do you guys think that a 1 1/2 HP chiller will be enough for this equipment? Also, what air temps do you guys usually aim for when running a sealed room with CO2? *


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 15, 2012)

berkman858 said:


> *Scooby - I posted this earlier, can you take a look at it and let me know what you think? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hey berk, sorry i missed the post earlier. i think a 1.5hp chiller will be more than enough for that setup. my only concern would be the actual output of the chiller. i only have experience with chillking models and they outperform their rating. i know a lot of guys who have gotten ecoplus and activeaqua chillers and they tend to under-perform their rating. i still think you'll be fine with a 1.5hp chiller but if you have plans in the future to expand or have a little extra money then i would definitely go with a chillking unit; maybe even a 2hp unit. especially if you are going to add water cooled Co2 generators in the future. let me know if you want me to get you a quote on a unit from my distributor.


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## berkman858 (Oct 15, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> hey berk, sorry i missed the post earlier. i think a 1.5hp chiller will be more than enough for that setup. my only concern would be the actual output of the chiller. i only have experience with chillking models and they outperform their rating. i know a lot of guys who have gotten ecoplus and activeaqua chillers and they tend to under-perform their rating. i still think you'll be fine with a 1.5hp chiller but if you have plans in the future to expand or have a little extra money then i would definitely go with a chillking unit; maybe even a 2hp unit. especially if you are going to add water cooled Co2 generators in the future. let me know if you want me to get you a quote on a unit from my distributor.


Thx! I would love to find out how much a 2HP Chill King costs with your hookup. The price is really the only thing keeping me away from the Chill King models. I don't have a window to mount the chiller in so I was just going to put it out on my balcony.

Thx again for this thread and all your help.


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## Sr. Verde (Oct 17, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> hey berk, sorry i missed the post earlier. i think a 1.5hp chiller will be more than enough for that setup. my only concern would be the actual output of the chiller. i only have experience with chillking models and they outperform their rating. i know a lot of guys who have gotten ecoplus and activeaqua chillers and they tend to under-perform their rating. i still think you'll be fine with a 1.5hp chiller but if you have plans in the future to expand or have a little extra money then i would definitely go with a chillking unit; maybe even a 2hp unit. especially if you are going to add water cooled Co2 generators in the future. let me know if you want me to get you a quote on a unit from my distributor.



Hello sir! I also need to ask a couple questions.

I'm setting up a 1000w 5x5 flower tent with 8" hood, next to a 600w veg tent also with an 8".. The air will be running from the outside of the tent, through the tent, and through some 8" 'ice boxes', and out the side of the 400w tent back into the room. It will be a closed room, with the air recirculating outside of the tents.


I'm wondering what chillers would be ideal, granted the 1600w of light. These guys at my hydro store tried to tell me the 1/2hp ecoplus chiller would be enough for the 1600w with 2 ice boxes in a sealed 13x10x10 room. However I'm starting to think that's incorrect.

As far as I can tell, with the numbers, I'm looking at 6400BTU for _only_ the HID lights. 

The 1/2HP is rated at 5115 BTU. I'm _guessing_ I will totally need the 1HP (8,525 BTU). Or possibly more?

My goal is to be able to cool the room down to 74-79F with lights on. If you could explain to me what equipment would be best for this I would be very grateful. !!


Also a big problem so far is that as far as I can tell I think my room has 2x 120v 15amp circuits. This is rough because the 1000w is 9.2amps, and the 1hp is about 9.5amps, that's already 18 amps with just the chiller, and the one 1kw light. I still need power for a dehumidifier, 2 inline fans, the veg light, and regular fans.. All with 12amps left. I might need to bring an electrician in.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 17, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> Hello sir! I also need to ask a couple questions.
> 
> I'm setting up a 1000w 5x5 flower tent with 8" hood, next to a 600w veg tent also with an 8".. The air will be running from the outside of the tent, through the tent, and through some 8" 'ice boxes', and out the side of the 400w tent back into the room. It will be a closed room, with the air recirculating outside of the tents.
> 
> ...


hey bud, i think you are going to need a 1hp chiller to cool those lights and the rooms. remember, you aren't going to cool the room by just putting 1 ice box on your hood. that will cool the hot air exhaust from the light but it will not be enough to cool the ambient temps of the room or the heat produced by other equipment like the dehumidifier. you will most likely need another ice box in the room as a spot chiller. you will need a reservoir and pump for the chiller. you will need tubing and pvc manifolds to run the chilled water to the ice boxes. 

as for the electical issues, you are going to need to get an electrician in there to upgrade your service. you will most likely need another 30amp service running to our room.


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## 777MedicineMan (Oct 18, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> i'm still here. just have a new account now. what's your question?


I am new to this forum stuff. Confusing. Instead of phillipchristian I presume you are now scoobydoobydoo?? Am I correct?
I just built 3 grow rooms and need to figure out climate control. Is it possible to communicate by my emailing you vrs this site?


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## UncleBurnie (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi all,

I'm thinking about setting up a sealed, water cooled room and could use the advice of you knowledgeable people. I may vent the room occasionally, but would really like to keep it sealed as much as possible.

Here are the specifics:

Climate: 75F-95F in the summer and 40F-70F in the winter. I plan on running the lights at night when it's cooler.
Room: 10'x12'x8' and well insulated. The flowering section is 7'x10' and separated from the veg section by uninsulated drywall.
Lights: Flowering 4 x 600W HPS / Veg room is florescent
Ballasts: Digital and outside of the room.
CO2: Gas Generator
Dehumidifier: 70 pints
Fans: (2) 400 CFM inline & (2) oscillating fans in room
Filters: (2) carbon filters
Heat Exchangers: (2) 6" Ice Box
Hydroponics: Ebb / Flow with 55 Gal nutrient barrel in veg room
Water for Chiller: 55 Gal barrel in veg room
Pump: 1/6 hp, 1200 GPH (do I need 2?)

Now the $100K question... What size chiller would I need for this set up?
Is there anything in the drawing that looks wrong?


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## berkman858 (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks UncleBurnie you reminded me of a question, Scooby do you exchange the air in your grow rooms or do you run it completely sealed? I have heard it's ok to run a completely sealed room with no air exchange if you have CO2 supplementation but it kind of worries me. I was planning on exchanging the air every hour or two.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 18, 2012)

777MedicineMan said:


> I am new to this forum stuff. Confusing. Instead of phillipchristian I presume you are now scoobydoobydoo?? Am I correct?
> I just built 3 grow rooms and need to figure out climate control. Is it possible to communicate by my emailing you vrs this site?


yea, you can email me but i have no way of contacting you on this site to give you my email address without posting it for everyone. you need to post a little more so that you can get private messaging turned on. try asking the site admin or one of the mods if they can turn it on for you. then i can send you a message with my email address.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 18, 2012)

UncleBurnie said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm thinking about setting up a sealed, water cooled room and could use the advice of you knowledgeable people. I may vent the room occasionally, but would really like to keep it sealed as much as possible.
> 
> ...


looks like a pretty solid setup to me. look at the flotec centrifugal pumps. 1/2hp should be plenty. they have multiple ports so you will only need 1. if you are getting a hydro innovations Co2 generator then you will need to supply it with a dedicated line from the pump; running it on the manifold used for the reservoir and the ice boxes won't supply it with enough pressure. use a t-ball valve on the supply line for the nutrient reservoir coil. it's the easiest way to control the water flow which in turn will control the temperature. you don't want the water too cold. you'll have to play with it a little bit to get it dialed in. if your room get's down to 40 degrees during the winter then you had better get a space heater in there. that is WAY too low. with Co2 you want your flower room at 80-84 with lights on and 70-78 with lights off. in veg you want to keep it around 74-78.

if it get's that cold where you are then your chiller really won't have to work that hard. this is just an "educated" guess; but i would say a 1hp chiller should be plenty. like i stated earlier though; it depends on the chiller. some of the cheap brands really only perform to 60-80% of their rated output. even so, i think you'll be just fine with a 1hp unit. probably even a 3/4hp unit. use a smaller reservoir; they are easier to cool and more efficient. try a 20-30 gallon reservoir.



berkman858 said:


> Thanks UncleBurnie you reminded me of a question, Scooby do you exchange the air in your grow rooms or do you run it completely sealed? I have heard it's ok to run a completely sealed room with no air exchange if you have CO2 supplementation but it kind of worries me. I was planning on exchanging the air every hour or two.


i run my rooms completely sealed with Co2. never had a problem. if you want to exhaust your room then do it after lights off and right before lights on. run the exhaust fan for 30 minutes both times and you'll be fine. you don't want to do it during lights on because you want the elevated Co2 levels in the room. exhausting the air during lights on just brings in fresh air and exchanges out the stale air that builds up in the room. no need to exhaust it every few hours though.


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## UncleBurnie (Oct 19, 2012)

Thanks for the input ScoobyDoobyDoo! I've been stressing the chiller size. I was figuring 1hp based on the info I could find, but having someone with practical experience chime in really helps. I am planning on an H.I. CO2 generator, so I'll rethink how I hook it up.


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## Sr. Verde (Oct 20, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> hey bud, i think you are going to need a 1hp chiller to cool those lights and the rooms. remember, you aren't going to cool the room by just putting 1 ice box on your hood. that will cool the hot air exhaust from the light but it will not be enough to cool the ambient temps of the room or the heat produced by other equipment like the dehumidifier. you will most likely need another ice box in the room as a spot chiller. you will need a reservoir and pump for the chiller. you will need tubing and pvc manifolds to run the chilled water to the ice boxes.
> 
> as for the electical issues, you are going to need to get an electrician in there to upgrade your service. you will most likely need another 30amp service running to our room.


Thanks man. I'm totally calling up an electrician recommended by my hydro store on monday. 

I have the PVC manifold, and hot and cold lines figured out. I understand I'll need a sump pump also.

So if all goes to plan, you would suggest the 1hp? My plan was to have a filter outside tents , run it into the 1000 w tent, then into an ice box, into the 600w tent, through the hood and through another ice box, then out the other side.

So I was going to have 2 ice boxes, where would you recommend I place a third?


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## 777MedicineMan (Oct 23, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> yea, you can email me but i have no way of contacting you on this site to give you my email address without posting it for everyone. you need to post a little more so that you can get private messaging turned on. try asking the site admin or one of the mods if they can turn it on for you. then i can send you a message with my email address.


Howdy,
Not sure if it was yours or not but I sent an email to P...C...at yahoo Did you get it? Re what you stated - try asking the site admin or one of the mods if they can turn it on for you How do I contact them?


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## Warlock1369 (Oct 23, 2012)

Just go to toke and talk and bull shit with them there. You will find your post count high enough real soon. Then pm will open. I'm not sure how many you need. It eould probably be faster that way. Good luck


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## zer0ed (Oct 24, 2012)

Question.

What are the disadvantages of having an external intake, that runs though the lights, and then exhausts outside the room, to maintain a closed system?
Wouldn't that allow you to have a to do much more, with less? 
using the water cooling on everything but the lights? 
and maybe for helping cool the room?
wouldn't that be a much more efficient setup? 
not having to cool the heat, just getting rid of it all together.

I've read though the first 10 pages.
Just a new guy, asking questions.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 24, 2012)

zer0ed said:


> Question.
> 
> What are the disadvantages of having an external intake, that runs though the lights, and then exhausts outside the room, to maintain a closed system?
> Wouldn't that allow you to have a to do much more, with less?
> ...


if you have an external exhaust of the lights then it's not really a sealed room. also, some people don't have that option; they can't exhaust their lights out of the room. there are a number of reasons why someone may not be able to or want to exhaust that air out of the room; odor, heat, bugs, holes in walls, etc... if you were just going to use a chiller to cool your room and some other equipment then it would be more efficient on the electrical bill but the cost of setting it up would kind of make it not worth it to most people. it would kind of be like setting up a solar panel, inverter, and battery bank just to run a grow room. although it may be more efficient and cheaper to run on a monthly basis; the cost of setup would make it pointless.


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## Sr. Verde (Oct 24, 2012)

Scooby your on the same page as me this morning.

I just had some electricians come by, they said they want to drop a #10 into the room and get its own panel.

They also said they could drill some 8 inch holes into the attic to run air.

With this in mind, and using 1000w light + 600w light. What setup would you think would be best?

I was planning on using a 1 or a 1&1/2HP chiller with the lights, but now that the idea of drilling into the ceiling comes into question I'm unsure of the best setup.


Should I run the air from outside the tent, into the hoods, through an ice box, and into the attic? Or should I just run AC in the tent room, and run the air through the lights and into the attic?

Would love some help, I'm really scratching my head on this one..


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 24, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> Scooby your on the same page as me this morning.
> 
> I just had some electricians come by, they said they want to drop a #10 into the room and get its own panel.
> 
> ...


hey bud, sounds like you have a dilemna. you have options; which is a good thing. 

the fact that you can exhaust air into the attic is probably the deciding factor. you wouldn't want to cool the air going to the attic through an ice box. that would just be a waste. the ice box is designed to cool the air that is being distributed back into the room. if you exhaust that air into the attic from the lights i would just run the air from the outside room through the 2 lights and then into the attic. then; all you would really need is either a good ventilation/air flow system with intakes and exhausts or a small portable a/c; will depend on the ambient temps where you live.

the chiller setup is going to cost you a lot of extra money. it is more efficient so you will save money over time on your electric bill but i'm not sure if in yuour situation it warrants you spending all that cash upfront. i had to install chillers because of my situation but in your case it may not be the best option. everyone is different and has a different setup. i have solid concrete walls; very hot environment; no attic; and i need a sealed room because of pest and humidity issues. 

the other thing with the commercial chillers is that they really need to be placed outside. this becomes an issue in areas where you get low temps because the compressor won't work properly. just like minisplit units; they need a special attachment to work in cold temperatures.


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## berkman858 (Oct 24, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> hey bud, sounds like you have a dilemna. you have options; which is a good thing.
> 
> the fact that you can exhaust air into the attic is probably the deciding factor. you wouldn't want to cool the air going to the attic through an ice box. that would just be a waste. the ice box is designed to cool the air that is being distributed back into the room. if you exhaust that air into the attic from the lights i would just run the air from the outside room through the 2 lights and then into the attic. then; all you would really need is either a good ventilation/air flow system with intakes and exhausts or a small portable a/c; will depend on the ambient temps where you live.
> 
> ...


Just curious as to why a chiller wouldn't work properly at low ambient temperatures. Or is it that it can't work if the ambient temperature is too low? And how low is too low?


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 24, 2012)

berkman858 said:


> Just curious as to why a chiller wouldn't work properly at low ambient temperatures. Or is it that it can't work if the ambient temperature is too low? And how low is too low?


i mentioned "ambient" temps when referring to the temperature of the room. cooling needs are always determined by the temps in the room you are working. a guy in a garage in arizona is gonna need more cooling than a guy in a basement in the mountains of colorado.

as far as the chiller not working properly in cold temps; all compressors work the same way. if it is too cold outside then it creates issues with the unit. this is why minisplits were originally designed for warmer climates; their outdoor compressor needs to maintain a certain minimum temp so they aren't ideal for places where it gets cold. i'm not sure what the temperature is and you would have to check with the manufacturer. i've never dealt with the issue but all miniplit companies have the temps listed in their manuals and most of them offer an additional feature that will let you run the unit in low temps. even the commercial chiller companies are starting to make units without compressors for cooler climates.


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## berkman858 (Oct 24, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> i mentioned "ambient" temps when referring to the temperature of the room. cooling needs are always determined by the temps in the room you are working. a guy in a garage in arizona is gonna need more cooling than a guy in a basement in the mountains of colorado.
> 
> as far as the chiller not working properly in cold temps; all compressors work the same way. if it is too cold outside then it creates issues with the unit. this is why minisplits were originally designed for warmer climates; their outdoor compressor needs to maintain a certain minimum temp so they aren't ideal for places where it gets cold. i'm not sure what the temperature is and you would have to check with the manufacturer. i've never dealt with the issue but all miniplit companies have the temps listed in their manuals and most of them offer an additional feature that will let you run the unit in low temps. even the commercial chiller companies are starting to make units without compressors for cooler climates.


OK I was confused, I meant the outside temperature where the chiller would be located. I have seen the ChillKing compressorless model for low temperature locations but I didn't think a regular chiller wouldn't work if it were cold, but now I have something new to research.


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## Sr. Verde (Oct 24, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> hey bud, sounds like you have a dilemna. you have options; which is a good thing.
> 
> the fact that you can exhaust air into the attic is probably the deciding factor. you wouldn't want to cool the air going to the attic through an ice box. that would just be a waste. the ice box is designed to cool the air that is being distributed back into the room. if you exhaust that air into the attic from the lights i would just run the air from the outside room through the 2 lights and then into the attic. then; all you would really need is either a good ventilation/air flow system with intakes and exhausts or a small portable a/c; will depend on the ambient temps where you live.
> 
> ...


Your making a lot of sense! I didn't think about how the ice boxes rely on running the same air dozens of times an hour. Now I realize I definitely want to recirculate the ice box air if I do water chiller.



So to be clear on having the air run through the lights and into the attic.. Are you saying I need to have the air source come from a different room, and go through the lights and into the attic? 

The guys that came to my place said they wanted two holes in the same room. Having the air being exhausted into the attic, while sucking air from the attic into the tent didn't make sense to me. It made me think dirty air from the attic would be running through my lights. And if there was a dust storm (happens a lot actually) my lights might get dirty!

As far as commercial chillers, I'm not really sure that I could put a unit outside. I think the pool guys that come with the house would start asking questions, and I wouldn't want to set myself up to be robbed by the pool guys friend. Would a 1hp or 1&1/2hp need to be outside? I was looking at the ecoplus originally but I've read that you said the chill kings are better and would be cool with making the investment on the chill king if it's really worth it.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 24, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> Your making a lot of sense! I didn't think about how the ice boxes rely on running the same air dozens of times an hour. Now I realize I definitely want to recirculate the ice box air if I do water chiller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you can use the air from inside of the room to pull through the lights or you can use air from outside of the room. the only difference is that if you use the air from inside of the room then you will want to filter it through a carbon filter before you pull it through the lights and exhaust it. this will help keep the bulbs and glass clean and will also eliminate any odor in the air that is being exhausted into the attic and possibly other areas of the house. i would just pull air from the room and use a carbon filter. this will create negative prssure in the room and help to keep the odor from creeping out of seems in the room; plus it will help to cool the room.

i don't have any experience with the ecoplus units but i'm pretty sure they run the same way as the chillking models and would need a very well ventilated area. they are designed to pull cool air over their coils and leaving them in a closed room will only create heat which in turn will eventually make the room so hot that the air being forced over the coils won't be cool enough. i know for a fact that the chillking models really need to be outside or at least halfway outside like a window a/c unit.


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## Sr. Verde (Oct 25, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> you can use the air from inside of the room to pull through the lights or you can use air from outside of the room. the only difference is that if you use the air from inside of the room then you will want to filter it through a carbon filter before you pull it through the lights and exhaust it. this will help keep the bulbs and glass clean and will also eliminate any odor in the air that is being exhausted into the attic and possibly other areas of the house. i would just pull air from the room and use a carbon filter. this will create negative prssure in the room and help to keep the odor from creeping out of seems in the room; plus it will help to cool the room.
> 
> i don't have any experience with the ecoplus units but i'm pretty sure they run the same way as the chillking models and would need a very well ventilated area. they are designed to pull cool air over their coils and leaving them in a closed room will only create heat which in turn will eventually make the room so hot that the air being forced over the coils won't be cool enough. i know for a fact that the chillking models really need to be outside or at least halfway outside like a window a/c unit.



Damn. So if I really need the chiller unit to be outside, and that's no go, then should I just ditch the chiller plan?. 

*I'm slowly starting to think I just need to get some holes drilled for AC and get like a 12,000 BTU unit or something + dehumidifier.. Then perhaps I wouldn't have to worry about 55gal -100 gal reservoirs, outside units, and thousands of dollars in equipment. Thoughts?* With the 240v line in, the amps pulled by the ac would be like 6-7. Last week I was looking at the 120v setup and thinking a 9amp chiller would be better over a 14 amp AC unit as far as AMPs being taken up in the room.

Then am I stuck with AC? AC is cool though, might work better anyway. 

As far as the carbon filter + the lights..... I'm with you on keeping the bulb and glass clean with a carbon filter, however wouldn't having a filter run through the lights, basically make it so I couldn't use ice boxes on my lights? If i hooked up to carbon filter to lights, then I would need to put the ice boxes on the lights, and then I would be exhausting the chilled air into the attic, which you yourself said wasn't ideal.






Your information is extremely valuable by the way, it's really helping me out. None of the guys at the hydro store had any good information on the chillers, just general knowledge. For instance they never told me about it being needing to be outside.


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## Orlandocb (Oct 25, 2012)

Guess i'll put in my 2 cents but if you had the air exhaust in the attic, chill in the attic, then re-circulate through the system maybe that would be ok


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 25, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> Damn. So if I really need the chiller unit to be outside, and that's no go, then should I just ditch the chiller plan?.
> 
> *I'm slowly starting to think I just need to get some holes drilled for AC and get like a 12,000 BTU unit or something + dehumidifier.. Then perhaps I wouldn't have to worry about 55gal -100 gal reservoirs, outside units, and thousands of dollars in equipment. Thoughts?* With the 240v line in, the amps pulled by the ac would be like 6-7. Last week I was looking at the 120v setup and thinking a 9amp chiller would be better over a 14 amp AC unit as far as AMPs being taken up in the room.
> 
> ...


i'd go with the a/c unit instead and exhaust the lights into the attic. just seems more logical in your scenario. you can get 240v ballast cords and run your lights on that 240v line.

you can run a carbon filter on the lights with an ice box; i do it. i think you got confused on that one. either way (with or without ice boxes) you can use the carbon filter to either scrub the air before you exhaust it into the attic or you can use it just to scrub the air you recirculate back into the room. you wouldn't use ice boxes if you were exhausting the air into the attic. you only use the ice boxes if you have the chiller.


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## Sr. Verde (Oct 25, 2012)

Ok that sounds great. I'm going 12,000 BTU AC.

I think I have a plan together, I just finished up at the hydro store, had a good convo with the guy and came out with a couple bags of soil.

Going to have the AC in the corner of the room, and have the AC hoses run up into the attic for exhaust/intake for the AC. Then I will have two 8 inch holes in the ceiling for the lights. I'll have a mushroom HEPA filter on the intake hose for the lights, and run the attic air through the lights, and back into the attic. The HEPA should take care of any dust problem.


Now the only question is where in the 8 inch ducting to mount the inline fan for optimal airflow through the lights and into the attic.

Also, I will have to get another fan for the rooms carbon filter, to keep the smell down?


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## Orlandocb (Oct 26, 2012)

Your grow area sounds bigger than my apartment lol


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Oct 26, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> Ok that sounds great. I'm going 12,000 BTU AC.
> 
> I think I have a plan together, I just finished up at the hydro store, had a good convo with the guy and came out with a couple bags of soil.
> 
> ...


that's why i suggested pulling the air from the room through the lights. if you pull air from the attic then chances are it is going to be very hot and less efficient at cooling the lights. plus; you are going to have to find a way to connect a filter in the attic on the intake hole to eliminate dusk and dirt and you will need another filter and fan in the room to recirculate the air and eliminate odor. if you hook the fan up on the intake side of one of the hoods and pull the air from inside of the room then you won't need an extra fan and filter and it will be a lot more efficient at cooling the lights.


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## Sr. Verde (Oct 26, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> that's why i suggested pulling the air from the room through the lights. if you pull air from the attic then chances are it is going to be very hot and less efficient at cooling the lights. plus; you are going to have to find a way to connect a filter in the attic on the intake hole to eliminate dusk and dirt and you will need another filter and fan in the room to recirculate the air and eliminate odor. if you hook the fan up on the intake side of one of the hoods and pull the air from inside of the room then you won't need an extra fan and filter and it will be a lot more efficient at cooling the lights.



I just ordered one of these hepa filters last night: http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Air-Filter-Inch-Hepa/dp/B0032JYP6Q . I was told i should be able to put that in the attic with the intake, and should avoid getting my lights dirty. However the guy there said he runs the same circuit and doesn't have a problem with dirt/dust/debris. He said I could spend an extra $100 on the HEPA if I was worried so I did.


So you think instead of going attic intake to attic exhaust... I should just hook up a carbon filter in the room and pump the air out of the room into the attic? The problem with that though is that it's no longer a sealed room correct? Can't use co2.

But would it be worth it to intake from the room? I'm just feeling like there will be problems with where to pull in new air from, if 500cfm is being pushed into the attic. The door is going to be blocked up, and I don't have fresh air intake like some houses.


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## TriSum (Nov 6, 2012)

Lot's of great info here. Thanks !!


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Nov 6, 2012)

Sr. Verde said:


> I just ordered one of these hepa filters last night: http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Air-Filter-Inch-Hepa/dp/B0032JYP6Q . I was told i should be able to put that in the attic with the intake, and should avoid getting my lights dirty. However the guy there said he runs the same circuit and doesn't have a problem with dirt/dust/debris. He said I could spend an extra $100 on the HEPA if I was worried so I did.
> 
> 
> So you think instead of going attic intake to attic exhaust... I should just hook up a carbon filter in the room and pump the air out of the room into the attic? The problem with that though is that it's no longer a sealed room correct? Can't use co2.
> ...


your attic gets hot in the summer. that is the purpose of an attic. to act as a heat buffer. so essentially you will be heating air in your hoods and exhausting it into an already hot attic. then you'll be sucking that hot air back through your lights. eventually the air will be so hot it won't be cooling anything. your grow room is inside of a room. pull air from that "lung" room through your lights and then exhaust it into the attic. if i am incorrect and you are using the WHOLE room as a grow then pull the air from the room through your lights. you are WAY too concerned about a "sealed" room when in reality none of what you are doing is actually sealed. that's just my opinion on your best option. if you feel differently then try out your way. i'm just giving you my advice. i don't know your house or setup so in reality my advice is just an opinion.


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## Sr. Verde (Nov 10, 2012)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> your attic gets hot in the summer. that is the purpose of an attic. to act as a heat buffer. so essentially you will be heating air in your hoods and exhausting it into an already hot attic. then you'll be sucking that hot air back through your lights. eventually the air will be so hot it won't be cooling anything. your grow room is inside of a room. pull air from that "lung" room through your lights and then exhaust it into the attic. if i am incorrect and you are using the WHOLE room as a grow then pull the air from the room through your lights. you are WAY too concerned about a "sealed" room when in reality none of what you are doing is actually sealed. that's just my opinion on your best option. if you feel differently then try out your way. i'm just giving you my advice. i don't know your house or setup so in reality my advice is just an opinion.



Word. I appreciate the help. I get 100% what your saying.

If/when it gets too hot I can just disconnect the intake and pull air from the room and push into the attic.


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## dajackel12 (Dec 14, 2012)

Hey,

I'm pretty new to this and I'm wondering if anyone can advise me, I'm looking to cool the exhaust air from a grow tent as i'm a little concerned over excessive heat in the house. I've been looking at ways to do this but just need some advise to see if i'm on the right track. I've uploaded my grow room plan and I'm wondering if its possible to use a icebox to cool the exhaust air? If it is possible then can someone advise on what sort of chiller I would need to run the ice box. I'm not a big grower and i'm planning to grow in a house so excessive noise,electric usage and heat are a concern so I'm not sure what sort of system to look at.

Thanks


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Dec 14, 2012)

dajackel12 said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm pretty new to this and I'm wondering if anyone can advise me, I'm looking to cool the exhaust air from a grow tent as i'm a little concerned over excessive heat in the house. I've been looking at ways to do this but just need some advise to see if i'm on the right track. I've uploaded my grow room plan and I'm wondering if its possible to use a icebox to cool the exhaust air? If it is possible then can someone advise on what sort of chiller I would need to run the ice box. I'm not a big grower and i'm planning to grow in a house so excessive noise,electric usage and heat are a concern so I'm not sure what sort of system to look at.
> 
> ...


i'm glad to help bud but that plan is confusing. not sure what you are trying to do or what some of the things are. how many lights do you have? what are those circles? why do you have 2 carbon filters and 2 Ona blocks? that's some serious overkill. you only need 1 carbon filter if it's sized right. if you wanna run a chiller then you need a reservoir for the chiller. you don't just hook it directly to the ice box. can you give more details and a better plan? i can draw something up for you but i need a lot more info.

this is how we do it! 

View attachment 2442493


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## dajackel12 (Dec 15, 2012)

Hey buddy,

Thanks for the quick reply, Sorry about the design plan, it is abit confusing but basically I'm looking to start a home grow in the UK in bedroom. I have concern with excessive heat and odour so I was planning to seal the bedroom and then use a grow tent inside it so the heat and odour can be controlled properly. The odour is something i was worried about hence I thought 2 carbon filters would definately do the trick. The circle were meant to be the plant pots lol.

I've not brought any equipment yet but I was planning a grow in a 3m x 3m grow tent with about 5-6 600w lights and 1 intake intake for the fresh air and 1 outtake for the exhaust. As the exhaust air will be hot I was wondering if it could be cooled by an icebox and cooler system? The reason I wanted to cool it is so that the house doesn't look suspicious with excessive heat build ups, my local area does have one of those choppers that fly by now and I'm abit paranoid about thermal/Flir etc. 

I've been advised to vent all the hot exhaust air to the basement so that it can be dissipated around the house evenly as to not to draw attention but I thought i would learn about watercooling the air as a backup

I hope this is more informative and I hope you may be able to advise me if the icebox and chiller would work for my situation or is it more for commercial large scale growers?

thanks


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Dec 15, 2012)

dajackel12 said:


> Hey buddy,
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply, Sorry about the design plan, it is abit confusing but basically I'm looking to start a home grow in the UK in bedroom. I have concern with excessive heat and odour so I was planning to seal the bedroom and then use a grow tent inside it so the heat and odour can be controlled properly. The odour is something i was worried about hence I thought 2 carbon filters would definately do the trick. The circle were meant to be the plant pots lol.
> 
> ...


my pleasure to help man. i have a couple suggestions and a couple questions too. 

first of, 5-6 600w lights is way to much for a 10x10 tent (3 meters is about 10 feet). that would be too much light and also wouldn't leave you any room to get around in the tent or for other equipment if you filled it with plants. ideally i would do 2 rows of 600w-1000w lights on either side of the tent. 

seems to me like you plan on using just air intakes and exhausts to cool the tent. with that much light i'm pretty sure it's not gonna be possible for you to cool it with just active air intakes. you are going to need to get some type of a/c unit and probably a dehumidifier as well. hence, the extra room needed in the tent for equipment and to move plants around. you want to be able to reach all of the plants. filling the tent with plants will make it really hard to water ans to get to the ones in the center.

what you are talking about doing with the tent inside of the room is called a "lung" room. you are basically using the room as a lung for the tents. in your design the air in the room is going to get so hot that eventually it won't be able to cool the inside of the tent. you'll just be pulling hot air into the tent. 1 ice box would cool the exhaust on 2 00w lights but you'd still need to find a way to cool the ambient temps of the tent and the heat created by the other equipment inside the tent like the dehumidifier and Co2 if you are adding that. there are a couple ways to do so; portable ac units or chillers. chillers aren't only for commercial size grows. i used a 2hp chiller for a pair of 8x8 tents for a few years.

ideally i would just seal the tent completely and use a small window chiller with 3 ice boxes. 2 to cool the lights and 1 to cool the rest of the tent. if you have a window in the room that you are putting the tent in then all you do is hang the chiller in the window and from outside it looks just like a window a/c. then just seal up the sides and you should be fine. i'm not sure how cold it get's where you are but as long as you don't get below freezing you should be fine. then you put the chiller reservoir in the room with the pump and run the lines into the tent. then all you need is a dehumidifier inside the tent. 

for the smell, all you owuld do is use a carbon filter (CAN 50 would be plenty). hang it from the roof in the middle of the tent. pull air through the filter, then through the 3rd ice box and out the fan. just hook the fan up to a thermostat controller and you won't have any issues. 

hope that makes sense. let me know if you need a drawing.


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## dajackel12 (Dec 15, 2012)

Hey, Thanks again for the reply

Yeah I was thinking about cooling the grow tent with the intakes and exhaust only before, with the intake air coming from another room with the windows open so fresh air will be coming through then the exhaust going to the basement. I think your right that my method won't be able to cool it properly. I would be extremely grateful if you could do a quick drawing for me with your method so I can do it that way.

thanks


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Dec 15, 2012)

dajackel12 said:


> Hey, Thanks again for the reply
> 
> Yeah I was thinking about cooling the grow tent with the intakes and exhaust only before, with the intake air coming from another room with the windows open so fresh air will be coming through then the exhaust going to the basement. I think your right that my method won't be able to cool it properly. I would be extremely grateful if you could do a quick drawing for me with your method so I can do it that way.
> 
> thanks


can you give me the dimensions of the room that you are putting the tent in. also, the location and size of the windows, doors, and any closets. just draw it up in microsoft paint or something. i just need to know the shell size.


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## dajackel12 (Dec 16, 2012)

Hey mate,

Sorry for the late reply, I've made a very basic shell of the room with the dimensions and i've uploaded it with this.

hope this is helpful

thanks


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## colalover (Dec 16, 2012)

Hi,
This thread has been amazing and the main inspiration for me to switch to water cooled. I have a question for those already water cooling, about a diy water cooled dehumidifier (just using cold water, no compressor or machines apart from your chiller)
I am currently switching my setup to be a water cooled sealed unit. I have all the equipment (Sentinel chhc-4 controlling it all), it is a tiny box 3foot x 3foot x 5foot with 1 x 600w light in there. The light has its own air feed and I have the option of venting to a lung room or outside. Since the box is so small I can not fit split units and huge dehumidifiers in there so this is why I am going water cooled. I got really lucky with a second hand chiller and ended up with a monster 1hp chiller. So I want to have this as my air cooler but also as my dehumidifier. I will have 2 x 100 litre res [thats about 26 gal] (possibly upgrade them to 250 litre res each [66 gal]), one will be set 10F above due point and the other will be set 10F below due point. All the feed in and out of the cold water will be insulated as well as the res itself. I have two PC radiators which are 14 x 5 inches each with 3 PC fans on each radiator which should work for cooling the room down as the light will have its own air feed so these radiators are only cooling the radiant heat etc inside the box.

My question is, does anyone currently use their water cooled water to dehumidify like I want to, if so I'll have a look at your grow journals to see how you do it. The makers of the ice box also do a dehumidifier but I can not find too much information about it and definitely can not source it anywhere in Europe. My two options are
1) Use another PC radiator, which have lots of fins on them so have a greater surface area for condensation to build up
2) Get copper coil and make some spiral design or something similar, which has less surface area but should allow droplets to start forming and snow ball more condensation as it runs down the pipe due to gravity.

Then other questions I have are
1) Is it best to constantly run the below due point water through the tubing/radiator, I read before that dehumidifiers cycle between being on and off to build up condensation and then let it warm up so drops form (not sure how true that is)
2) Should i have a small pc fan pointing at the coil/radiator to encourage droplets to fall or would this just encourage the moisture to return back to the air? There is constant air movement in the box anyway so it wouldn't be stagnant without a fan on it
3) I know it is best to have your heat exchangers up high as heat rises, but what does humidity do? I guess it falls so is it best to have this dehumidifier lower down? 


As you can see these are all theoretical questions which can only be answered in practice, the only problem is that i can not find anyone else who is doing it this way. So even if you just have an answer to one of the questions above then I appreciate your response, and before it's said I know I'm crazy for doing water cooled in such a small space but its a genuine medical grow in a country who's laws are very outdated. So putting aside the best medicine possible, water cooled / sealed is also the safest heat signature / smell wise.
Thanks


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Dec 17, 2012)

dajackel12 said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> Sorry for the late reply, I've made a very basic shell of the room with the dimensions and i've uploaded it with this.
> 
> ...


honestly bud, i don't see how you are fitting a 10'x10' tent in there. you don't have enough room. maybe if your door opened outward and was on 0.5 meters wide. even then you would be blocking the windows with the tent and if you are going to get a chiller then you are going to need access to the windows. i think you should consider a 5x10 tent and 2 1000w lights. that's plenty for a new grower. unless you are handy with electrical and construction (or can pay someone to do it); then you could build a room out of 2x4's and drywall or plywood. that's what i would do but i have construction and electrical experience.

here's what your room would look like with a 5x10 tent in it. let me know what route you decide to go and then i can get more detailed with the drawing and add the lights, plants, chiller, fans, etc.


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## dajackel12 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hey mate

Thanks for the reply, Yeah your right, i think the 10x10 would be too big, I was just measuring the room again and visualizing and it's going to be huge. The 5x10 you got on the design seems much more realistic for a new grower like me. That looks good!


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Dec 17, 2012)

dajackel12 said:


> Hey mate
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Yeah your right, i think the 10x10 would be too big, I was just measuring the room again and visualizing and it's going to be huge. The 5x10 you got on the design seems much more realistic for a new grower like me. That looks good!


in that case i would do 2 600w lights in the bottom corners. figure that each 600w will cover a 4x4 area. that give you 2 feet in the middle and 2 feet in the front of the tent for equipment. grow smaller plants on 4x4 flood trays. that way you don't need a saucer per pot. just prop up the trays a foot or so and put a drain fitting in one end. then just angle them slightly toward the drain fitting. that way when you water, any excess just pours into the tray and down the drain fitting into a small bucket you have there. you can also clean out the tray easily by just dumping a bucket of water into it. great way to keep the room clean. 

i would veg the plants maybe 2 weeks and then put them into flower. keep them under MH light for the first 2 weeks of flower to eliminate stretch. even use veg nutes the first 2 weeks of flower. the plants are essentially still in the veg stage anyway. if you keep the plants small it will basically be a SOG grow. you will get more efficient yields. i think on a 4x4 tray you could easily fit 16 plants in 3 gallon pots. just keep them lollipopped and trimmed nicely. 

you'll have enough room on the side of the tent to stick a 1hp chiller in the window and a small reservoir on the floor. keep the chiller reservoir small, maybe 20 gallons. they work more efficiently that way. then just get yourself a good pump and 2 ice boxes. you won't need any a/c if you put an ice box on each light. the excess heat in the room will be covered by the exhaust from the ice boxes cause they won't be working as hard keeping 600w lights cool.


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## dajackel12 (Dec 19, 2012)

Hey bud,

Great advise there, thanks for taking the time out to help me out on this, I really do appreciate it mate. I'm going to start in the next few days and do a journal. I'll post the link up here for it. Thanks again mate!


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## Smokingblazer (Mar 6, 2013)

Ok i cant get my room temp down at all, i got 4 8" ice boxs, 1/2hp chiller and a 30gallon res that i insolated, i can get the water temp down to the low 60s but when the lights come on the room gets to low 90s, then the res temp jumps to high 70s. I got 4 1000watt lights in 8" air cooled hoods, sealed room


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## berkman858 (Mar 6, 2013)

Smokingblazer said:


> Ok i cant get my room temp down at all, i got 4 8" ice boxs, 1/2hp chiller and a 30gallon res that i insolated, i can get the water temp down to the low 60s but when the lights come on the room gets to low 90s, then the res temp jumps to high 70s. I got 4 1000watt lights in 8" air cooled hoods, sealed room


You need at least 1/4 HP of water chilling per 1000 watt light so you would need at least a 2 HP water chiller.


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## Smokingblazer (Mar 6, 2013)

Great! Well guess im ot running this room now lol! Out of money


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## Smokingblazer (Mar 6, 2013)

berkman858 said:


> You need at least 1/4 HP of water chilling per 1000 watt light so you would need at least a 2 HP water chiller.


Is'nt that 1hp not 2hp


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## berkman858 (Mar 6, 2013)

Smokingblazer said:


> Is'nt that 1hp not 2hp


Yeah you are right, my math skills aren't so great when I am baked.


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## Smokingblazer (Mar 6, 2013)

Anyone interested in a brand new 1/2hp active aqua chiller, lol need to upgrade lol


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## berkman858 (Mar 7, 2013)

Smokingblazer said:


> Anyone interested in a brand new 1/2hp active aqua chiller, lol need to upgrade lol


If you are CA I may be interested.


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## Doer (Mar 7, 2013)

berkman858 said:


> You need at least 1/4 HP of water chilling per 1000 watt light so you would need at least a 2 HP water chiller.



Hah! Good one. I didn't know that, but at the last minute I changed my mind from 1/10 to 1/4 hp. Good thing. I have 1000 w Light.

Everything has to be insulated. I even have these foil, bubble wrap panels I use to keep radiate heat off surfaces, like the top of the chiller to shade it.

I've got it now so that everything illumiated except plants will refect and not absorb the heat. I have a water cooled light and that gets the 80% the actual heat. The glass is cool to the touch. But, 20% is IR and we don't want that to heat anything but air that is to be exhausted. So, with air cooled lights, 4000 w, you are still dumping more than 1/2 the heat into the room.

It is a bit of plumping job for water cooled lights.


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## Smokingblazer (Mar 7, 2013)

berkman858 said:


> If you are CA I may be interested.


Ya, hour north of sac, i just posted it on craigslist in a bunch of places


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## Smokingblazer (Mar 7, 2013)

Doer said:


> Hah! Good one. I didn't know that, but at the last minute I changed my mind from 1/10 to 1/4 hp. Good thing. I have 1000 w Light.
> 
> Everything has to be insulated. I even have these foil, bubble wrap panels I use to keep radiate heat off surfaces, like the top of the chiller to shade it.
> 
> ...



Ya all my pipes are insulated the whole way, except the return lines, guess i just need a bigger chiller for my 4 1000s


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## bdt1981 (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm about to go back and read more of this thread but I figure if I don't find ny answer I might recieve one. If that made any sense at all? I'm baked at the moment, lol. How big of a res should be used for a 1 HP .like 9000 btu or so. Cooling 4000 watts using HI's ice box exchanger oan each 1000? Would it be better to duct each hood out of the space with different air so don't lose co2. It's going to be hot this summer so I don't know how its going to work out


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## Doer (Mar 10, 2013)

Well, venting with CO2 is a different, but related problem. Most folks will stop venting for a CO2 set. The heat goes up, still OK. When the heat get above your chart temp for the concentration, then stop CO2, begin venting again. 

I think you need both myself and that what I have. A 1/4 hp cliller and a 5000 btu A/C in the room. 

No matter what you do, you will still need to vent. You can hold off longer and hotter in a sealed room with an AC, and max your CO2 set.

I'd say a big AC is what you need and a chiller.


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## bdt1981 (Mar 10, 2013)

I have a 1 HP Eco plus and just got a window unit. Summer here is brutal. What kind of insulation would you recommend? It's a sun room add on surrounded in Windows that are now covered.


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## EmeraldPawn (Mar 10, 2013)

To reduce my thermal signature of my grow lights exhaust I built this setup. I use a 10' long, 6" diameter PVC pipe with end caps. This reservoir is kept concealed outdoors under the porch and a themostatic switch turns on the inline pump which runs water through the lamp coolers. As the water leaves the grow room it passes through a autmotive heater core with a 12 fan drawing cold air through the fins and back into the big PVC pipe (reservoir) The area I live in gets cold in winter so I use a RV mix. One pipe/reservoir will contain 14 gallons of coolant. I have reduced the exhaust temperature so I am not getting the tell tale "Arctic Frost" build up on the exterior. One step ahead of FLIR as well as visual observation. Oh, for humidity if you need more I use a old ten gallon tote hook up one of those ultrasonic "Mister Fogger" for water gardens, works great when used with a timer. When mounting inside the tote make sure you watch the clearance of the small jet of water that rises up from the cermaic fogger unit. It is ultrasonic that breaks up the water molecules and at that certain distance it will burn a pin sizes hole in your plastic lid, and yes if you use your finger to find the sweet spot that burns too I know out of experience.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

Bublonichronic said:


> nice, i got 3 1k HPS, i guess a freezer has no chance of cooling them?


 A freezer puts out less than 200 BTU. Freezers fail when run continuously. So no, will not work.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

Bublonichronic said:


> if i wanted to make the modification to the freezers element, how much would that cost? and what would i need?


 A freezer isn't going to work, no matter how much you spend. They have no where near the cooling capacity required. If you just want to tinker, modify a A/C or a dehumidifier. At least they are powerful enough to provide a few thousand BTU. A freezer only has a couple hundred BTU. Probably too little to even cool a medium sized reservoir.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

phillipchristian said:


> Sweet setup man. That would suck if 405 gallons flooded. You'd need a canoe.  I used to get a little condensation on my older system too; it's nothing to worry about. Now we have a system with 2 different reservoirs running at different temps. We keep the water for the air handlers at 45 degrees and the water for the feeder manifolds at 60 degrees. The air handler lines are fed tight into the back of them trough the wall so i get no condensation from them in my room.


 You should insulate those lines. You may be getting condensation INSIDE the wall.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

phillipchristian said:


> I read through that thread and there is so much mis information there. First - water cooling is significantly more efficient than air cooling. With an air conditioner you are passing air over the evaporator. Air has 1/20th the heat capacity (ability of something to absorb heat and maintain temperature) of water. Therefore your air conditioner has to work harder to cool 1 cubic foot of air then a chiller has to work to cool 1 cubic foot of water. With a chiller, water is passed over the evaporator. Water is able to transfer the residual heat to the evaporator and cool itslef much more efficiently. Second - the main problem is that people go online and see these Ice Boxes or other heat exchangers and think that they will remove all the heat from a room. If you mount an Ice Box with just a fan then it will act like an 8,000btu A/C. When you mount an Ice Box on a hood you are only taking the heat out of your hood. You still have to cool the room and the other equipment. Third - some of the post in that article are just flat out wrong and have wrong information. If you have an 8,000btu air conditioner and an Ice Box side by side an Ice Box will cool the room much more efficiently. Water passing through the coild is able to suck heat out of the air more efficiently then air passing through the evaporator coils on an A/C. Also, Greenspace says that A/C units are much better for medium to large ops when in reality the larger your op the more cost effective and efficient water cooling is. Mainly because the costs become more comparible with those of A/C units. Fourth - Water cooling is expensive and the technology is still being developed; but so is LED technology and plenty of guys are experimenting with that. There are very practical applications for using water cooled technology. In your example of an 8k room you would probably need 2 24,000btu A/C units to cool that room. If you vented your lights then maybe less but you'd be buying more inline fans. In my case we prefer to have absolutely no in/or out vents whatsoever. Not even our lighting. A lot of commercial growers are moving this direction. Called closed environment agriculture. With a chiller you are able to do this; completely seal your room and control all of the ambient temperatures in your space. Plus chillers give you an option of controlling your reservoir temps as well.


 Your first example doesn't make any sense. While cooling the water may be more efficient, you still have to transfer that cold to the air eventually. So you have the energy loss occurring from cooling the water PLUS the energy loss from cooling the air. Plus, the Ice Box doesn't appear to have any provision for condensation.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

bdt1981 said:


> I have a 1 HP Eco plus and just got a window unit. Summer here is brutal. What kind of insulation would you recommend? It's a sun room add on surrounded in Windows that are now covered.


Solid foam, no drywall. The trick way is to rent a foam sprayer and seal the room, between the studs. A foil bubble wrap instead heating up drywall. That's what I will do in a new construction in the garage.

For you, it is easy. Get the 6" thick foam boards from Home Depot or Lowes. Coat those window walls with foam board. Tape it well with foil back duct tape...not straight foil tape...it won't hold.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

phillipchristian said:


> I read through that thread and there is so much mis information there. First - water cooling is significantly more efficient than air cooling. With an air conditioner you are passing air over the evaporator. Air has 1/20th the heat capacity (ability of something to absorb heat and maintain temperature) of water. Therefore your air conditioner has to work harder to cool 1 cubic foot of air then a chiller has to work to cool 1 cubic foot of water. With a chiller, water is passed over the evaporator. Water is able to transfer the residual heat to the evaporator and cool itslef much more efficiently. Second - the main problem is that people go online and see these Ice Boxes or other heat exchangers and think that they will remove all the heat from a room. If you mount an Ice Box with just a fan then it will act like an 8,000btu A/C. When you mount an Ice Box on a hood you are only taking the heat out of your hood. You still have to cool the room and the other equipment. Third - some of the post in that article are just flat out wrong and have wrong information. If you have an 8,000btu air conditioner and an Ice Box side by side an Ice Box will cool the room much more efficiently. Water passing through the coild is able to suck heat out of the air more efficiently then air passing through the evaporator coils on an A/C. Also, Greenspace says that A/C units are much better for medium to large ops when in reality the larger your op the more cost effective and efficient water cooling is. Mainly because the costs become more comparible with those of A/C units. Fourth - Water cooling is expensive and the technology is still being developed; but so is LED technology and plenty of guys are experimenting with that. There are very practical applications for using water cooled technology. In your example of an 8k room you would probably need 2 24,000btu A/C units to cool that room. If you vented your lights then maybe less but you'd be buying more inline fans. In my case we prefer to have absolutely no in/or out vents whatsoever. Not even our lighting. A lot of commercial growers are moving this direction. Called closed environment agriculture. With a chiller you are able to do this; completely seal your room and control all of the ambient temperatures in your space. Plus chillers give you an option of controlling your reservoir temps as well.


 Your first example doesn't make any sense. While cooling the water may be more efficient, you still have to transfer that cold to the air eventually. So you have the energy loss occurring from cooling the water PLUS the energy loss from cooling the air. Plus, the Ice Box doesn't appear to have any provision for condensation. Cooling a cubic foot of water requires 8.125 BTU per degree of temp drop. Cooling 1 cubic foot of air requires 0.001 BTU. The water weighs thousands of times more than the air.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

phillipchristian said:


> Hey groove, thanks for stopping by. Sounds like you are doing just fine with what you bought. Adding 2 Ice Boxes to your light probably wouldn't have dropped your temps that much at all. You have the air being pulled through them and exhausted outside so the Ice Box really wouldn't be an improvement over that. You'd just be pumping colder air out your exhaust. Really the Ice Box is meant for completely sealed rooms when use on a hood like that. In your situation this is what I would do. You really need to get a chiller reservoir; something 30 gallons would be perfect. You can make one yourself out of a drum. You just need there to be a fitting at the bottom with a valve to let water out. This way when you hook it up to your pump the pressure will force water into your pump. Try and use either reinforced rubber tubing or solid pvc if you do it yourself. That cheap tubing will not handle the suction from your pump. You need a good pump that has at least a 15ft lift on it. Like a Flotec 1/2hp one. They come with a 1.25" intake port, a 1" exhaust port, and three 1/2" auxillary exhaust ports. Check this thread out; I helped this guy set his system up. He is using that pump and it will give you an idea of what I am saying ( https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/513182-newb-grow-journal.html). Or a good mag drive pump will do it as well (1200gph+). Fill the reservoir with a 70/30 mix of water and propylene glycol. This stuff is cheap and easy to find at any hardware store. It's rv/marine antifreexe and costs a few bucks a gallon. Then just create a manifold out of pvc and pump that water through the manifold, through your equipment, and back to the reservoir in a return manifold. You can find manifold construction blue prints on the Hydro innovations website (http://www.hydroinnovations.com/support.php) under "manifold schematics." If not then you can get those cheap hydro pumps and use one for each piece of equipment. Not sure how they would hold up in the reservoir though if you add the antifreeze to it. But you wouldn't have to worry about putting a port on your reservoir or building a manifold. I would then just use the Ice Box as a spot chiller in the room and use cool coils that you can buy or make out of copper tubing to cool each of your reservoirs to 65 degrees. I know that's kind of long winded and may be confusing. Let me know if you need me to explain it better.


 Copper tubing in a reservoir is a really bad idea.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> Your first example doesn't make any sense. While cooling the water may be more efficient, you still have to transfer that cold to the air eventually. So you have the energy loss occurring from cooling the water PLUS the energy loss from cooling the air. Plus, the Ice Box doesn't appear to have any provision for condensation.


For sure, there is no such think as coolth.  We can't add coolth, we have to subtract warmth. So, it is an exercise in thermodynamic and transporting heat.

I agree only the water-water interface makes sense. Freon evap cycle makes sense for the air-copper interface...A/C.

But, I have to agree with the poster about water cooling for lights. There is no comparing the efficiency of water for transporting heat.
It is the standard in terms of normal temp ranges. I could not grow in my space with 1000w air cooled light.

I have a 100 gal garbage container I have borrowed from the city. It failed the water test, so I got new one for green waste and they said I could keep the leaking one. I sealed that up from the inside, so water pressure would help. I was just where the wheel wells are.

I have that on the north side of the house in the shade. It was a plumbing problem at first, but I've working it out. I use a 1/4 hp sump pump pulling thru a bucket filter I made. My save is it never stays hot at night. But, I can rig a evap cooling ladder and use another pump to bring the res water to the top of the evap column and flow it back as cooler water.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> Copper tubing in a reservoir is a really bad idea.


A killer. I'm experimenting with these. Stainless steel.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

phillipchristian said:


> Hey Groove, glad it's coming together for you. For sure you don't want to use copper in a nutrient reservoir. It can fuck up your plants. They do sell aluminim and galvanized coils which work just fine. As for the thin rubber stuff I have never heard of anyone using it before. Test it out and see if it works. Just keep an eye on it for a while. Not sure of the drawbacks; maybe gotta watch that the pump doesn't pull it closed or that the plastic doesn't start to degrade. But I bet you could find rigid coiling at any HVAC or hardware store. I think you are better exhausting the lights like you are now. If you completely sealed the room you would need 2-3 more Ice Box, a bigger chiller or an a/c. The Ice Box will remove the heat from one 1000w bulb but you would still need to cool the room with another 1-2 of them. If you sealed it and just had 1 Ice Box as a spot a/c I am pretty sure the temps would get out of control. When I was using Ice Boxes still I had them on every hood and still had to have additional cooling in the room. In the future if you can get a bigger chiller and more Ice Box then I say go for it. Closed Environment is the easiest way to grow in my opinion. Good luck man. Let me know if you need anything.


 aluminim and galvanized coils are still a really bad idea. You keep saying things that are completely wrong. I suspect you don't grow at all.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> aluminim and galvanized coils are still a really bad idea. You keep saying things that are completely wrong. I suspect you don't grow at all.


Yeah, he starts out complaining about mis-information.....


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

EmeraldPawn said:


> To reduce my thermal signature of my grow lights exhaust I built this setup. I use a 10' long, 6" diameter PVC pipe with end caps. This reservoir is kept concealed outdoors under the porch and a themostatic switch turns on the inline pump which runs water through the lamp coolers. As the water leaves the grow room it passes through a autmotive heater core with a 12 fan drawing cold air through the fins and back into the big PVC pipe (reservoir) The area I live in gets cold in winter so I use a RV mix. One pipe/reservoir will contain 14 gallons of coolant. I have reduced the exhaust temperature so I am not getting the tell tale "Arctic Frost" build up on the exterior. One step ahead of FLIR as well as visual observation. Oh, for humidity if you need more I use a old ten gallon tote hook up one of those ultrasonic "Mister Fogger" for water gardens, works great when used with a timer. When mounting inside the tote make sure you watch the clearance of the small jet of water that rises up from the cermaic fogger unit. It is ultrasonic that breaks up the water molecules and at that certain distance it will burn a pin sizes hole in your plastic lid, and yes if you use your finger to find the sweet spot that burns too I know out of experience.



I almost cut the end of my finger off...big gash from goofy around with a water jet. Damn! A lot of good ideas here. Ceramic foggers?
Wow?? Why not aero-grow with those?

A big pipe thermally hitched to the shaded ground. Why didn't I think of that!!!???? Going thru radiators....I even have that.

I could put a big pipe under the house and be done. Thanks and I tip my hat to you, sir.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

phillipchristian said:


> I'm pretty sure you can't. Different physics. Air conditioners pass air over the coils which in turn transfers the heat from the air to the refrigerant. Chillers pass water over the coils to transfer heat to the refrigerant. You'd have to gut the a/c and get new parts and an internal reservoir. The only part from the a/c you could use would be the fan and the diffuser.


 All you have to do is carefully bend the evaporator down and put it in a insulated external reservoir. No new parts are needed but a pump and the tank. A/Cs cost a fraction of an equivalent chiller. $150.00 for 10,000 BTU A/C against $2700.00 or more for a chiller. A/Cs are sold everywhere, cheaply. Chillers require ordering and waiting for delivery, drilling holes in walls, etc.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

Warlock1369 said:


> Oh all my fans are in the rooms. Not outside. It's a large area but need my kids from asking what is that as long as possible. Don't need my teens finding out I grow. I dont have them. They live with mom. My younger 2 know and help. But never have them at the same time. Well in the grow house anyways.


 I'll bet your teens already know.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> All you have to do is carefully bend the evaporator down and put it in a insulated external reservoir. No new parts are needed but a pump and the tank. A/Cs cost a fraction of an equivalent chiller. $150.00 for 10,000 BTU A/C against $2700.00 or more for a chiller. A/Cs are sold everywhere, cheaply. Chillers require ordering and waiting for delivery, drilling holes in walls, etc.


I have done that. But, I ended with too much bending back and forth and broke it. It can be repaired of course. But, that is 1/2 of the cost of getting a new one.

Works amazing. A 9000 btu pulled 50 gals not insulated, to 46 degrees in a hot garage and keep it there..for a little while. But the AC added heat the garage so eventual it is defeated. 2nd Law.

The best idea I have seen for these is use a bladder for leak sanity and a good night sleep, inside a box made of plywood and 4" foam laminate. It was about the size of a washing machine. The top had a nice slot to slide down the chiller panel into the water and the A/C unit just sits on top. Still have the waste heat to transport out. 

I was building a separate smaller tank with flowing water for the hot coil side when I broke it. But water on both hot and cold coils is the way to go. Flowing water takes the heat out. Or if it is outside or under the house, just sitting in air is fine.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

phillipchristian said:


> If you pay your water bill than I wouldn't suggest doing it. The amount of water pressure you'll need at those temps to rmove heat from your room will be a lot more then a trickle. You would essentially need your faucet at full pressure. Because water has such high heat conductivity you need to supply water cooled equipment with substantial flow rates for them to be effective. This is why you see that most water cooled applicationsinvolve a recirculating reservoir.


 High heat conductivity would reduce the need for high flow rates, not increase it. You keep saying things that are completely wrong. I think you are a fraud.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

colalover said:


> Hi, This thread has been amazing and the main inspiration for me to switch to water cooled. I have a question for those already water cooling, about a diy water cooled dehumidifier (just using cold water, no compressor or machines apart from your chiller) I am currently switching my setup to be a water cooled sealed unit. I have all the equipment (Sentinel chhc-4 controlling it all), it is a tiny box 3foot x 3foot x 5foot with 1 x 600w light in there. The light has its own air feed and I have the option of venting to a lung room or outside. Since the box is so small I can not fit split units and huge dehumidifiers in there so this is why I am going water cooled. I got really lucky with a second hand chiller and ended up with a monster 1hp chiller. So I want to have this as my air cooler but also as my dehumidifier. I will have 2 x 100 litre res [thats about 26 gal] (possibly upgrade them to 250 litre res each [66 gal]), one will be set 10F above due point and the other will be set 10F below due point. All the feed in and out of the cold water will be insulated as well as the res itself. I have two PC radiators which are 14 x 5 inches each with 3 PC fans on each radiator which should work for cooling the room down as the light will have its own air feed so these radiators are only cooling the radiant heat etc inside the box. My question is, does anyone currently use their water cooled water to dehumidify like I want to, if so I'll have a look at your grow journals to see how you do it. The makers of the ice box also do a dehumidifier but I can not find too much information about it and definitely can not source it anywhere in Europe. My two options are 1) Use another PC radiator, which have lots of fins on them so have a greater surface area for condensation to build up 2) Get copper coil and make some spiral design or something similar, which has less surface area but should allow droplets to start forming and snow ball more condensation as it runs down the pipe due to gravity. Then other questions I have are 1) Is it best to constantly run the below due point water through the tubing/radiator, I read before that dehumidifiers cycle between being on and off to build up condensation and then let it warm up so drops form (not sure how true that is) 2) Should i have a small pc fan pointing at the coil/radiator to encourage droplets to fall or would this just encourage the moisture to return back to the air? There is constant air movement in the box anyway so it wouldn't be stagnant without a fan on it 3) I know it is best to have your heat exchangers up high as heat rises, but what does humidity do? I guess it falls so is it best to have this dehumidifier lower down? As you can see these are all theoretical questions which can only be answered in practice, the only problem is that i can not find anyone else who is doing it this way. So even if you just have an answer to one of the questions above then I appreciate your response, and before it's said I know I'm crazy for doing water cooled in such a small space but its a genuine medical grow in a country who's laws are very outdated. So putting aside the best medicine possible, water cooled / sealed is also the safest heat signature / smell wise. Thanks


 You should install the dehumidifier up high so you can gravity drain the water. Humidity will not "fall". It will distribute itself uniformly throughout the space, so location of the dehumidifier can be anywhere.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> High heat conductivity would reduce the need for high flow rates, not increase it. You keep saying things that are completely wrong. I think you are a fraud.


you're entitled to your opinion (which is wrong) but I could care less.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> you're entitled to your opinion (which is wrong) but I could care less.


It isn't opinion, it is physics. You can keep your opinions, but you can't challenge science with them.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> You should install the dehumidifier up high so you can gravity drain the water. Humidity will not "fall". It will distribute itself uniformly throughout the space, so location of the dehumidifier can be anywhere.


Well, that is funny. Not thinking air circulation, of a sudden. Good use of forum. Reminders.


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> High heat conductivity would reduce the need for high flow rates, not increase it. You keep saying things that are completely wrong. I think you are a fraud.


Not so sure about that last sentence. Not thinking about it correctly to be sure. Water has high heat mass, in that it can hold heat from 0 - 100 C. without a phase change or expansion. (much)

So, flow is reduced if the heat transfer surface is very efficient. That way much heat is transfered to a smaller vol. of water, making that side more efficient. Now, is the heat shedding side efficient enough to handle that?

These physics are all well described in math, except the fine detail of modeling heat transfer to turbulence vs heat gain of the turbulent spire's motion. So, use a supercomputer for that and extrapolate fine frames of time.

Physics can be counter-intuitive. For example, if you don't know why hot water will freeze faster than cold water...well go study.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

I've heard that about water many times. Its not true. In high school, we did 30 different tests of that claim and the cold water froze first. Every time. Think about it. If 50 degree water takes X hours to freeze in a given freezer, then 100 degree water will take Y hours to drop to 50 degrees and another X hours to freeze. 30 different students froze water in 30 different freezers, but in every case, the cold water froze first. While hot water will lose heat faster than cold water, it will never catch up. Because as it cools, it becomes the cold water that has a lower heat loss rate.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Jun 1, 2013)

You guys have fun arguing with each other over semantics. I've got more important things to do.


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## Red1966 (Jun 1, 2013)

Late for your nap? Chill out! Its Saturday!


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## Doer (Jun 1, 2013)

Red1966 said:


> I've heard that about water many times. Its not true. In high school, we did 30 different tests of that claim and the cold water froze first. Every time. Think about it. If 50 degree water takes X hours to freeze in a given freezer, then 100 degree water will take Y hours to drop to 50 degrees and another X hours to freeze. 30 different students froze water in 30 different freezers, but in every case, the cold water froze first. While hot water will lose heat faster than cold water, it will never catch up. Because as it cools, it becomes the cold water that has a lower heat loss rate.


It is an easy experiment. The teacher was going about it wrong, I guess. Take 2 water droppers. 2 cups of water. Cold tap and hot tap. So, room temp and hot.

It is best to have a freeze plate for this, but it will work on a window sill, if very cold out.

Cold surface outside. No containers. Two drops of water, at the same time. Close the window. What happens is the cold drop will skin over and the film of ice will insulate the rest of the drop.

The hot drop will create a tiny plume and not skin over all the way. The convection plume allows the drop to freeze solid from the bottom faster without the insulated skin over. The cold water is still. Thats it.

Mpemba Effect. It is recognized as a scientific reality that except in very special cases Hot water, freeze faster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect

http://www.youtube.com/embed/0EBGO52DBnU

This vid is the full explanation of the science. It is all about viscous density and the temp gradient.


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## chllnvlln28 (Jul 3, 2013)

Hey everyone, new to the water chiller experience and having some issues.

I have a few questions about how to use my chiller when it comes to chilling my room.

Specs :
600w Area 51 led panel
1/2 hp chiller 
8" heat exchanger
55 gallon blue barrel res ( only for the chiller )
800 gph pump

If I just turn everything on from start, the chiller will not take the res past 73 degree. When I need to get down around 60 or less to keep my room chilled. I live in a very hot climate and we have been experiencing record high's here lately 110+ and mostly 90's at night. Should I keep the 55 gallon res full? or half full? I am running 1/2 ID tubing. I just recently insulated it with a foam pipe insulation. Can anyone help me out?


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## Doer (Jul 3, 2013)

So, you had me until half full. Wouldn't more water be better?


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## Ross2022 (Jul 16, 2013)

What ever happen to Phillip the guy who started this tread?


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## meanmuggz (Jul 28, 2013)

So I turned a 65 pint dehumidifier into my chiller. It keeps my main rez at 13ºc.I use it to cool my nute rez to 63º and my 4x4x7 grow tent at 75 day 65 night using an 8"ice box. My tent sits inside a100ºf garage. I have to temp issues. Love the water cooling idea works great


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## Doer (Jul 28, 2013)

meanmuggz said:


> So I turned a 65 pint dehumidifier into my chiller. It keeps my main rez at 13ºc.I use it to cool my nute rez to 63º and my 4x4x7 grow tent at 75 day 65 night using an 8"ice box. My tent sits inside a100ºf garage. I have to temp issues. Love the water cooling idea works great


Insulated tent, of course? No? I wrap mine in bubblefoil. It finishes the light proofing, but more important reflects the 100* infrarred heat, the black fabric will soak up.


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## Wohjew (Aug 4, 2013)

Hi I've been reading alot on water cooling . I want a 100% sealed room with no vent holes period . Using two 2000w flower . Gonna build the room to suit . Planning to run 1 8inch ice box per light using hoods . Ice box on each end . Using one fan to push air threw cooling the lights . Should I also add a 3 rd box on the wall for spot cooling ? No ac at all either just iceboxes. Gonna try the Eco 1 1/2 chiller unit as I am on a budget to run my boxes. What does everyone think of my setup idea ?also I will be using a flowtec 1/4 hp . Pumping from Res to chiller to lights back to res


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## Wohjew (Aug 4, 2013)

Wow I posted from page 7 oopsie this is a long thread


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## H20Cool (Sep 12, 2013)

Phil at last I heard had some personal family issues and has been away for a while.. Obviously not something to post in public, not sure if ScoobyDoobyDoo is him in disguise or his partner but I recognize the country of residence in the signature... 

He most definitely is not a fraud and purchased all his initial systems from me in the beginning of us starting / really advancing the the water-cooled industry. It's good to see he learned a lot from his experience and I see a lot of info from our site and hydro innovations site as well. 

I came across this thread and noticed his name and how he made a nice little name for himself as an experienced water-cooled indoor gardener. Grasshopper learned well from the teacher 

Not here to shill or promote my site/business but as stated, we are pretty much the global experts in all things water-cooling having started the industry along with my partner the owner of hydro innovations, the guys at chillKing, best coast growers, etc.. And helped invent a good portion of the products. We have designed and sold more water cooled systems than anyone in the world and have seen and done it all.  If you have any questions I'll try to find time to get on here and reply in between 14- hour workdays as summer is the crunch time, you can PM me privately as well for any personal conversations offline. 

I will say this is a great thread and Phil couldn't have done a better job with his information and answers to questions. Even more things have changed this year with the introduction of more affordable chillers from Hydro innovations - the "Banks Chiller" lineup with prices under $5k for a 5ton chiller and around $4k for 3.5 ton and the original ChillKing 2ton window unit model was discontinued by CK and is now built by HI by same people just under HI's roof. 

Quality is better, build times faster, warranty is better, prices lower. Can't beat that an we haven't sold a single ChillKing this year exclusively Banks and they have flown off the virtual shelf this summer as we all have been slammed. 

These days almost all the systems we design, and we design some big ones and small ones, are exclusively chillers and air handlers for all the reasons Phil mentioned. I can't recall the last time I sold an icebox, unless for smaller garden with under 3-4 lights. The air handlers came down in price and give you better bang for the buck and its such an easy setup. Heck we sell a complete package that will cool 10k watt lights with chiller, air handler, pump, res, tubing and free shipping for less the cost of just a 5ton ChillKing chiller alone. That was unheard of a few years ago when Phil bought his gear and he bought a lot! 

Again- I'm not here to promote our site or products, if you want to contact me about something I will be glad to talk privately but shilling for sales is not why I'm here.. Simply to help educate or clarify things or answer questions best I can to help others thinking or installing water-cooled systems. Maybe I can help keep some people from making mistakes before a purchase from sizing things wrong (the biggest problem and I saw so many incorrect things said on this thread, many that were thought to be correct years ago but no longer apply.). 

I would be happy to help answer any questions in Phil's absence, I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with that having gotten his start with me and learning a lot in the beginning from us as well. He's a great guy and I wish him and his family well- and if you're there or back Phil, drop me a shout. I still want to go fishing! 

Ryan - owner 
Watercooledgardens.com

H20Cool


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## lvtokerr (Sep 21, 2013)

H20Cool said:


> Phil at last I heard had some personal family issues and has been away for a while.. Obviously not something to post in public, not sure if ScoobyDoobyDoo is him in disguise or his partner but I recognize the country of residence in the signature...
> 
> He most definitely is not a fraud and purchased all his initial systems from me in the beginning of us starting / really advancing the the water-cooled industry. It's good to see he learned a lot from his experience and I see a lot of info from our site and hydro innovations site as well.
> 
> ...


i currently have 4k in veg and three times that in flower. I am thinking about a 7.5 ton chiller that way theres room to expand. My lights are bare bulb so I would also need to cool those as well as all the equipment in the room. I want to go water cool so I can have a res out side that stays cold during winter. I think this is the way water cooling would really pay off. Half the year I probably wont have to run the chiller and still be able to run sealed without ac.


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## chronicripgrower (Sep 22, 2013)

This is what i'm interested in also.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (Dec 28, 2013)

wow, have't been on this thread in forever. thanks for the shout out ryan...aka...the guy who taught me everything. LOL. hope everyone is doing well. bought to journal a 4000w water cooled grow room construction starting in a week or so. hope everyone is staying cool.


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## h.cordero (May 9, 2014)

Why does a commercial grow op (50,000+ watts) doesn't run water cooled, instead they run ac with air cooled reflectors? Really great Info thanks scooby


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## Rayjay123 (May 10, 2014)

Hello all, I was wondering if I could get some insight on what I should do for a water cooled system. I live in Michigan so It really is only hot 4-5 months out of the year starting in the beginning of April to the end of August. Anyways my rooms are as follows

12L x 15W x 8H with 4000 watts, a 70 pint dehum, no co2 yet, but was planning on a burner
The ballasts are inside the room, and I am planning on moving them outside once I get money for cords to be adequate length (lol) 
The room will have 12 plants because Michigan likes to do the really gay 12 plant per patient room rule.
The lights are air cooled hoods, and I have the intake coming into the hoods from outside and the exhaust from the lights going outside as well. 
I run soil plants, and don't plan on switching to hydro. 

My second flowering room will have all the same things except it's dimensions are 10L x 15W x 8H

Keep in mind these rooms are in a basement

If I didn't give enough information for an accurate guesstimation I'm sorry in advance.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (May 28, 2014)

h.cordero said:


> Why does a commercial grow op (50,000+ watts) doesn't run water cooled, instead they run ac with air cooled reflectors? Really great Info thanks scooby


i've rarely ever seen a 50k room even running air cooled lights. normally they just put the bulbs in bat wing reflectors and use a few 5 ton commercial air handlers. water cooling technology is pretty new and is very expensive upfront. most large commercial ops don't want to deal with the buildout time and something that size would require multiple large chillers which may be hard to conceal.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (May 28, 2014)

Rayjay123 said:


> Hello all, I was wondering if I could get some insight on what I should do for a water cooled system. I live in Michigan so It really is only hot 4-5 months out of the year starting in the beginning of April to the end of August. Anyways my rooms are as follows
> 
> 12L x 15W x 8H with 4000 watts, a 70 pint dehum, no co2 yet, but was planning on a burner
> The ballasts are inside the room, and I am planning on moving them outside once I get money for cords to be adequate length (lol)
> ...


not sure what your question is. do you want to go water cooled with your grow room? you will have some issues with a chiller outside during the winters there in michigan.


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## Doer (May 29, 2014)

h.cordero said:


> Why does a commercial grow op (50,000+ watts) doesn't run water cooled, instead they run ac with air cooled reflectors? Really great Info thanks scooby


Maintenance, huge AC already in place, no need for a water cycle.

In my little backroom, you could NOT run 1000w uncooled. You go water cooled when need to.

Big grows don't need to. They have space, volume, big fans, etc. No need to water cool.

I could not function without it.


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## Doer (May 29, 2014)

Really gay, huh? CA has a 6 plant rule. 

IAC, without a chiller you will need 400 gal of water ballast outside to run 4000 watt HID. Maybe more, since you don't want it to freeze at night in winter.

That's how I do it. 100 gal in the north side shade of the house. But we never freeze.

I have a 1/6 hp sump pump in there on a 1/2 inch hose, runs at a low flow, to increase the transit time thru the light. Also I have a no flow/no go switch on the light. That has saved my ass.


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## TexasHank (May 29, 2014)

ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> i've rarely ever seen a 50k room even running air cooled lights. normally they just put the bulbs in bat wing reflectors and use a few 5 ton commercial air handlers. water cooling technology is pretty new and is very expensive upfront. most large commercial ops don't want to deal with the buildout time and something that size would require multiple large chillers which may be hard to conceal.


When you say "rarely".. are you saying you HAVE seen a 50k+ room run air cooled?

That would just be silly.. aircooled lights is a micro garden thing..


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## Doer (May 29, 2014)

That would be just silly unless you can show us a 50k water cooled setup


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (May 29, 2014)

TexasHank said:


> When you say "rarely".. are you saying you HAVE seen a 50k+ room run air cooled?
> 
> That would just be silly.. aircooled lights is a micro garden thing..


you'd be surprised how many idiots there are in the world. and i know of 2 in colorado that a run 10 rows of 6 lights that are air cooled. so yes, "rarely."


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## Doer (May 29, 2014)

Yes, water cooled is for small grows where there is no other way to manage the heat,

It adds expense, material and labor.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (May 29, 2014)

Doer said:


> Yes, water cooled is for small grows where there is no other way to manage the heat,
> 
> It adds expense, material and labor.


if you are on the grid then water cooled technology is costlier to setup but cheaper to run in the long term.


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## Doer (May 30, 2014)

It is cheaper to run if you don't count labor and can get away from active chilling.

On grid, when I added a 1/4 hp chiller, it blew up the electric bill.

Cleaning the lamps every 6 month is another big turn for maintenance. And water quality maintenance, itself, is another cost.

But, as I said for a small space nothing else will give this level of heat maintenance
for HID.

Fresca Sol now has a two bulb lamp. So, that gives 2000w HID. Then go 2x on the on those plumbed in series and add another big water tank, I'm looking at a large sealed pipe setup for under the house. Cool under there. Almost 6 gal per foot for 12" pipe.

That is another advantage to water for me. I could have the 4000 watts in a bathroom sized space.


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## ttystikk (May 30, 2014)

I use water cooling to remove heat AND humidity. AC doesn't do this as well or consistently- and as mentioned above, its far more costly to operate on a head to head basis.

I've cooled 16kW of sealed and vented lighting with just one 2 Ton chiller, and it cools up to 12kW of open bulbs. That just doesn't happen with a Freon to air exchanger.

Moreover, one chiller cools multiple spaces, spread apart. AC can't do that. Water chilling also cools with less space, a phenomenon known as energy density- the same principle underlying liquid cooled laptops and car engines. Because I work with vertical systems, my ratio of total room volume to canopy surface area is radically different from flatlander style grows. This results in rapid heating, potential hotspots and a very high transpiration load in the room. Water chilling is essential to effective management of these environmental issues, AC is a nonstarter.


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## Doer (May 30, 2014)

Interesting. How much space do you need from a wall to grow vertical on that wall.

2 feet?

Have an pictures?


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## ttystikk (May 30, 2014)

For anyone who still thinks that water cooling is only good for small applications, how do you think they cool skyscrapers?


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## ttystikk (May 30, 2014)

Doer said:


> Interesting. How much space do you need from a wall to grow vertical on that wall.
> 
> 2 feet?
> 
> Have an pictures?


I don't grow vertically against walls. I build cylinders that manage the distance between lamp and leaf much better than flat surfaces do. This drives efficiency by ensuring the entire canopy gets optimum lighting with little waste.


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## Doer (May 30, 2014)

Very cool. I will check your blog. thx.


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## Doer (May 30, 2014)

Of course, I was talking only about water cooled light circuits.

For economy of scale, nothing beats water chilling. Water is a fantastic transport.

Size matters. If I could have 1/4 acre on a south slope, I would farm that, not a bathroom.

To go small and still have big light is what I meant.

If you can get sized up to 2 ton, I think water is better that AC for air cooling.


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## ttystikk (May 30, 2014)

Doer said:


> Of course, I was talking only about water cooled light circuits.
> 
> For economy of scale, nothing beats water chilling. Water is a fantastic transport.
> 
> ...


You have to install it properly, but it does kick serious ass in the cooling department. It even keeps things cool when the heat load exceeds its rating... thanks to big tub RDWC and the thermal reservoir created thereby!

Going small space need not mean small yield. My Super Silo needs a seven foot square and 2 thouies to produce... welllllll... I don't know what it can produce. Every time I run it, it makes more. So far, at least eight.


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## Doer (May 30, 2014)

By small, I mean a 40 x 40 inch bloom table and a 32 x 32 inch Veg tent.

I still pull 2 x 4ft plants a month. Plenty for me.


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## ttystikk (May 30, 2014)

Doer said:


> By small, I mean a 40 x 40 inch bloom table and a 32 x 32 inch Veg tent.
> 
> I still pull 2 x 4ft plants a month. Plenty for me.


No doubt, but I don't see how it needs water cooling?


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## Doer (May 30, 2014)

The HID is water cooled. And I still get 20% IR heat loading.


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## ttystikk (May 30, 2014)

Another reason I'm sticking with water cooling is the HEAT.

SERIOUSLY! All that heat has to go somewhere, so why not put it to good use? With the air cooled chiller I've been using, I just stick it in the house and it keeps my whole place toasty warm all winter- saving roughly $200 in natural gas bills monthly for the six month heating season. That's paid for my chiller all by itself, not including the savings from improved efficiency.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (May 30, 2014)

Doer said:


> It is cheaper to run if you don't count labor and can get away from active chilling.
> 
> On grid, when I added a 1/4 hp chiller, it blew up the electric bill.
> 
> ...


the fact that you are talking about 1/4hp chillers and fresca sold shows me that you really shouldn't be commenting on the advantages of water cooling. ask yourself why 90% of the high rises in the world use chillers as opposed to a/c units.


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## Doer (May 30, 2014)

Well, that smarmy attitude leaves me to tell you to fuck off.

I can see why you are considered a well hated dick head of the internet.

But, to me however you are just another marginal personality with
a snotty ego attitude.

If you think you are here to have a following to adore you as you seem to desire...

Well, as I said. Fuck off.


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (May 30, 2014)

Doer said:


> Well, that smarmy attitude leaves me to tell you to fuck off.
> 
> I can see why you are considered a well hated dick head of the internet.
> 
> ...



just laughing my ass off. you claim to be knowledgeable about something you have no clue about and then get butthurt when someone points it out to you. i'd tell you to go fuck yourself but it would be a waste of my time.

and i'm sure you'll find a lot more people on here that DON"T think i'm the dickhead of the internet. quite a few have even come to visit.


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## ttystikk (May 30, 2014)

Gentlemen, let's try to stay on the topic.

1/4hp chiller can indeed have an effect on the power bill, precisely because they're so small as to be only marginally useful, and therefore more likely to be constantly overloaded.

No disrespect intended, they can serve a purpose, but their limitations make installation tricky and benefits slim.

The solution I found was to size up the chiller, to take advantage of its ability to cool multiple spaces- AND finally attain a capacity large enough to realize real savings in environmental control costs. Basically, a minisplit with water instead of Freon lines. There are more advantages of course.

The big advantage I found more recently is its ability to pull a lot of heat from a room with only a small footprint. That has even more intriguing possibilities...


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## ScoobyDoobyDoo (May 31, 2014)

ttystikk said:


> Gentlemen, let's try to stay on the topic.
> 
> 1/4hp chiller can indeed have an effect on the power bill, precisely because they're so small as to be only marginally useful, and therefore more likely to be constantly overloaded.
> 
> ...


just a side note...i started this thread under my old account.

the problem with smaller chillers is that they are not efficient at all. they are designed for chilling reservoirs and that's about it. they can't handle the work load of anything larger and end up overheating and consuming too much electricity for their size. I started with a 2hp chiller and then went to a 12hp which is still running along with a 7.5hp i have at my house. the larger chillers are twice as efficient as a/c units and use 30% less power. call chill king, hydroinnovations, or water cooled gardens and they will explain the same thing to you.


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## ttystikk (May 31, 2014)

^^^^^ What @ScoobyDoobyDoo said, squared.

The best solution isn't always the easiest one.


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## ttystikk (Jun 30, 2014)

BUMP! WHO ELSE IS DOING THIS??


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## Hablamos (Jul 2, 2014)

Cool idea to chill during night or the base of the plant without worry. just add ice !


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## Keesje (Mar 26, 2019)

BUMP

I am not familiar with the chillers mentioned in this interesting topic.

In the past I worked with an OptiClimate.
For those who don't know it: it works as follows: The hot air in your room is sucked in at the backside of a box-shaped device... inside the hot air hits tubes with cold water (like a car radiator) 
The water absorbs the heat, and the cooled off air leaves the device in the front.
The cold water gets in the device, coming from a normal tap, with a low temperature. It leaves the device (warmed up because of the hot air) and flows to a drain and into your sewer.
So there is no active cooling with special fluids. Just water that gets in because of the pressure of the tap. And hot air that is sucked in by a vent, and pushed out again, but much cooler.

In what way do the chillers mentioned in this topic differ from the OptiClimate?


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## ttystikk (Apr 22, 2019)

Keesje said:


> BUMP
> 
> I am not familiar with the chillers mentioned in this interesting topic.
> 
> ...


I'm familiar with water chillers, they're basically an AC unit that cools water instead of air. You then send that cold water to a water cooled air handler in the grow room. There it cools the air and if the water you're sending it is below the dew point in the grow room, you get condensation and dehumidification.

I'm not sure how your unit works, can you explain in more detail?


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## Keesje (Apr 23, 2019)

ttystikk said:


> I'm not sure how your unit works, can you explain in more detail?


I will do my best...
In your room you place this unit






The hot air in your room is sucked in at the backside of this device.
Inside this hot air gets in touch with tubes with cold water 
Looks like this. (like a car radiator) 






This radiator has 1 entry and 1 exit.
A hose is connected to the entry. Cold water flows into the radiator through this.
The hot air is blown through the ribs of the radiator
This makes the ribs warmer. The cold water, however, absorbs the heat from the ribs.
The consequence of this heat exchanging is that cold air leaves the ribs. And the heated water leaves the radiator through the outlet hose.
The end of the hose disappears into the sewer.
Your room is being cooled. You can set the temperature precisely. If the room gets too hot, more water flows. If the room is cold enough, the supply of cold water will stop.

Ideal devices for growing with CO2. You do not need an inlet or outlet. Just the room, some CO2 and the OptiClimate. Oxygen will always find a tiny hole to get into the room.
The OptiClimate also functions as a heater. And also as a dehumidifier

You can read more here
http://opticlimateshop.com/en/opticlimate-10000-pro-3/12-opticlimate-10000-pro-3-16x600w-24x400w.html

There is now a model 4 that also dehumidifies when the lights are off.


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## ttystikk (Apr 23, 2019)

Keesje said:


> I will do my best...
> In your room you place this unit
> 
> 
> ...


I read the web page you linked but it didn't tell me if it is an air conditioner with a compressor and refrigerant or how it actually works. It's a mystery!


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## Keesje (Apr 24, 2019)

I have no clue either. Too technical for me.

But as I understand it, it does contain refrigerant.

The big advantage is that the heat disappears into the sewer. So you don't need an exhaust pipe where hot air blowes out. Warm air that is easy to detect with a heat detector, for example.
I think with a traditional AC, you have the outside unit that blows out the hot air.

I guess for a smaller room you could make a a watercooled AC yourself.
Like this guy: 



He uses an icebox as a cooling liquid, but you could as well get cold tapwater, run it through the copper tubes and the water will heat up and disappear into the sewer.

You could also have a pump in your swimming pool, take water from there... run it through the tubes, water back in the pool. It takes a long time before you heat up your pool water. And during the night most pools cool down a few degrees (depending on where you live of course)
As pool owners know it takes a lot of heat/energy to get your pool just a bit warmer. So your pump could run for a lot of hours every day and still your pool might only be 1,2 or 3 degrees warmer. And during the night the temperature of the pool easily looses 1 till 5 degrees.

It would be a nice, fun DIY experiment.


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## jdee (Apr 24, 2019)

ttystikk said:


> I read the web page you linked but it didn't tell me if it is an air conditioner with a compressor and refrigerant or how it actually works. It's a mystery!


It's an air-to-water heat exchanger, there is plenty of info online how they work.


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## ttystikk (Apr 24, 2019)

jdee said:


> It's an air-to-water heat exchanger, there is plenty of info online how they work.


It does not, in that brochure, explain if it uses a compressor to push heat from one medium to another. Are you an HVAC tech? If so, by all means do explain how it works. If not, why are you commenting on something you don't know about as if you're an authority?


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## ttystikk (Apr 24, 2019)

Keesje said:


> I have no clue either. Too technical for me.
> 
> But as I understand it, it does contain refrigerant.
> 
> ...


So it uses an AC compressor to move heat rejected from the air into the water, sort of a water chiller in reverse.

The swimming pool idea is great- and at $40k to build one I'm sure it's well within the budget of everyone! I'm teasing, of course.

It seems to be a decent unit built to solve a specific problem. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Keesje (Apr 24, 2019)

ttystikk said:


> The swimming pool idea is great- and at $40k to build one I'm sure it's well within the budget of everyone! I'm teasing, of course.


I know several people who use the Opticlimate. It was specially designed for growing. I guess not originally, but hte guy who builds them saw those machines... thought of how well they would do in growing rooms... converted them a bit and gave them his own brandname.
When they just came to the market, he openly advetised them with slogans like "can cool a room with 6/12/20 x 600 HPS".
He sold a lot of these. Now he is not allowed to advertise in such a way anymore.

They keep your temperature exactly where you want it. During lights on, and also during lights out. It has a lightsensor.
So if you set it 28 C and 23 C, it will keep it that way. 
It also dehumidifies. During the day especially. But the newer ones also during the night.
It also heats up you room if needed. It has some kind of heating-panels inside.

Perfect for growers. But not cheap. Also heavy equipment. And too much electronics for me. So if things go wrong, you have to get it off the ceiling and bring it to someone who can repair it.

I know 1 guy who uses one and he does not cool with tapwater but with his pool. It is one of those cheap pools that you can buy for a few hundred bucks. Big enough for him. Another uses a river or canal that is near his house.


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## ttystikk (Apr 24, 2019)

Keesje said:


> I know several people who use the Opticlimate. It was specially designed for growing. I guess not originally, but hte guy who builds them saw those machines... thought of how well they would do in growing rooms... converted them a bit and gave them his own brandname.
> When they just came to the market, he openly advetised them with slogans like "can cool a room with 6/12/20 x 600 HPS".
> He sold a lot of these. Now he is not allowed to advertise in such a way anymore.
> 
> ...


I'll look into them.


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## Keesje (Apr 24, 2019)

Not sure if they deliver in any country in the world.
You should check it out.

If you want to grow with CO2... They are almost a must-have.


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## Kandar (Oct 10, 2019)

I made a pretty cool~ little chiller system to cool my little 4ft x 3ft grow room.

I ripped a refrigerator apart and cut the evaporator off of it. I made a coaxial evaporator coil that turned out well. Using 1/2 inch tube and a little tiny pump i piped in a little 12x12inch fan coil that used to be on a commercial vapor separator and a heat exchanger in my resivior. It is a continuous loop that uses electronic 3-way valves connected to some relays and temp switches. I use non-toxic glycol in the chill loop that is good to -100. I watered it down slightly. 

I dialed in the system to put out 44 degree water at the coldest. I can get a 15 degree delta. I was totally impressed with this little 0.05 ton fridge compressor that pulls next to no amps. It has to run for about 5 minutes to cool the room and probably 20 minutes to cool the resivior down 4 degrees which is perfect.


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## Keesje (Oct 10, 2019)

Kandar said:


> I made a pretty cool~ little chiller system to cool my little 4ft x 3ft grow room.
> 
> I ripped a refrigerator apart and cut the evaporator off of it. I made a coaxial evaporator coil that turned out well. Using 1/2 inch tube and a little tiny pump i piped in a little 12x12inch fan coil that used to be on a commercial vapor separator and a heat exchanger in my resivior. It is a continuous loop that uses electronic 3-way valves connected to some relays and temp switches. I use non-toxic glycol in the chill loop that is good to -100. I watered it down slightly.
> 
> I dialed in the system to put out 44 degree water at the coldest. I can get a 15 degree delta. I was totally impressed with this little 0.05 ton fridge compressor that pulls next to no amps. It has to run for about 5 minutes to cool the room and probably 20 minutes to cool the resivior down 4 degrees which is perfect.


I don't get it totally.
Do you have pics? Or a drawing?


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## Kandar (Oct 11, 2019)

Sure. 
I started with some GE fridge parts.
This was eay to rip out. Two bolts at the bottom back of the fridge. I evacuated the refrigerant into a recovery bottle. Cut the refrigerant lines and two wiring harnesses. Then it slides right out as one unit. I didn't use the evaporator coil in the first pic. I made a new one.


I made this coaxial coil out of copper. My engineering on it is slightly rough but it is ballpark in terms of sizing for the compressor.


Pic above. Is the new coil mounted on the compressor/condenser plate. In the pic it is still being tested.


For each my resivior and fan coil cooler(not shown) i use 3-way valves. I pulled them out of some fan coils on a 4 pipe system. They are 24v and recieve calls from thermostats to open and close different portions of the loop.


Testing stuff here but almost done. Its a mess in this pic. Relays wired directly to outlets and temp controllers. Its mounted to a board for ease of moving wires and relays


So i grabbed a big steel cabinet from a 3phase transfer switch i had and painted it with the only paint i had on hand for the sprayer.. of course its john deere green... Im in the process of mounting everything including the chiller in this box more properly.

I was adding things as i needed them to grow. This is my second grow for this equipment made out of about anything i can find. 5th time growing in total so iv made plenty of mistakes along the way.

Plants are doing well. Zillions of long hairs on those roots and the plants themselves recuperate very quickly after getting clipped.


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## Keesje (Oct 11, 2019)

Nicely done!
Bit to difficult for me though.


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## ttystikk (Oct 26, 2019)

Kandar said:


> Sure.
> I started with some GE fridge parts.View attachment 4406353
> This was eay to rip out. Two bolts at the bottom back of the fridge. I evacuated the refrigerant into a recovery bottle. Cut the refrigerant lines and two wiring harnesses. Then it slides right out as one unit. I didn't use the evaporator coil in the first pic. I made a new one.
> 
> ...


How long have you been an HVAC tech?


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## Mrasta01 (Nov 27, 2019)

Hello https://www.rollitup.org/goto/post?id=8139284


ScoobyDoobyDoo said:


> the fact that you are talking about 1/4hp chillers and fresca sold shows me that you really shouldn't be commenting on the advantages of water cooling. ask yourself why 90% of the high rises in the world use chillers as opposed to a/c units.


ScoobyDoobyDoo....how do I find you? Need assistance on a large 100,000 sq ft facility. Can you please reach out to me. I’m new. [email protected].


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## coreywebster (Nov 27, 2019)

Kandar said:


> Sure.
> I started with some GE fridge parts.View attachment 4406353
> This was eay to rip out. Two bolts at the bottom back of the fridge. I evacuated the refrigerant into a recovery bottle. Cut the refrigerant lines and two wiring harnesses. Then it slides right out as one unit. I didn't use the evaporator coil in the first pic. I made a new one.
> 
> ...


Hows this project coming along?


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## Kandar (Nov 27, 2019)

Great. After this grow is done ill finalize a few things but it all works well. 
These plants suffered from a few mistakes but are ok. Pic is from 35 days in bloom. Not a single hiccup from the cooling system. It has been great.

I was thinking i might actually add a few doodads and make it a heat pump too because winter just showed up and things are getting a lil chilly.


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