# CO2 (carbon dioxide) at Lowes



## anontf (Sep 28, 2008)

Since i couldn't find anything about these. I thought id contribute since you guys have been such a big help with my first time grow. CO2 is supposed to help with growth and I've only ever been told you have to go to a welding shop to get some. Well i was at Lowes today looking for some stuff to tweak my setup a bit. I didn't find it but i did find CO2 canisters at a reasonable price. There were two sizes i only took a pic of the large one cause after i did an employee started to watch me like i did something suspicious. Sorry for the fuzzy pick of the bottles.


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## KaliKitsune (Sep 28, 2008)

Honestly, the addition of CO2 will not help unless you're subjecting your plant to higher temperatures. In lower temperatures, plants do not respirate at the rate they do on a blazing hot day, so the extra CO2 is a waste.

This was actually one of the experiments my Hort. Sci. class did back in high school. At room temp, added CO2 levels just smothered the plants. At higher (90F+) temperatures, the plants thrived with the extra CO2.

CO2 is highly recommended for growers who have problems maintaining a steady 70-75F temp in their closets. Otherwise, don't bother, just spend time with your plants - the CO2 you exhale will be all they require.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2008)

i think the reason people recommend welding or industrial gas supply shops for co2 is the price. No experience with co2 myself but that $35 tank probably wouldn't last long in even a small grow. And with no mention of refilling the cost could get crazy quick. With a welding shop you buy the tank once and refill it when necessary at a much lesser price then these tanks lowes has. 

Kinda novel but it just doesn't seem practical to me, besides the expense of a co2 setup is mostly in the monitoring/dosing equipment from what i can see, not the tank.

Good luck but look around before you spend your money


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## trichome2008 (Oct 2, 2008)

CO2 works, have used it for many years with great results. Don't waste your money for 20oz bottle for $35 as posted in your picture which wouldn't even last a 3 days. Invest in a 20lb bottle along with a regulator and of course a timer for truly getting BIG results. The bottle can be refilled at most beverage stores for around $25. Good luck growing!


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## SunnyD (Oct 2, 2008)

they're cheaper for paintball tanks,,i think 20bucks for a 20oz...i'm gonna do that and get a 20 dollar regulator...plus the tanks are refillable for a few bucks.


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## Scalded Dog (Oct 3, 2008)

hey thanks a lot in Lowes all the time will look for it next time in


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## born2killspam (Oct 3, 2008)

3lbs of sugar fermented will produce more CO2, and time release it for you.. Total cost - <$2


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## hom36rown (Oct 3, 2008)

at my local hydro shop they give you a tank for a $100 deposit, so you can return it at any time, and $20 to refill


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## NewGrowth (Oct 3, 2008)

Those bottles are too small to last long and would end up costing you more in the long run. CO2 has to be regulated a specific levels to be effective and if the plants are not already growing in optimum conditions it will make little difference.


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## nathenking (Oct 10, 2008)

C02 increased my yield by 20 percent as well as shortend the flower period by a week. Its a definite must in any pro garden fellas


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## NewGrowth (Oct 10, 2008)

nathenking said:


> C02 increased my yield by 20 percent as well as shortend the flower period by a week. Its a definite must in any pro garden fellas


Thanks now everyone will go out an waste their cash on these tiny bottles of CO2


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## born2killspam (Oct 10, 2008)

That would be retarded, but other methods of CO2 addition, whether simple fermentations, or solenoid driven tanks are worth the money.. I was shocked by the price of this, I mean a similar can of butane is 10% the cost, and not only is butane far more valuable than CO2, but it would actually create more CO2 if combusted..
Retardedly overpriced!!.. I can't think of anything it could be worth while for..


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 11, 2008)

water, sugar, yeast. tried and true. Get yourself a glass pan, put about an inch of water in it, add sugar until no more dissolves, cover with aluminum foil, poke holes thru foil, set in grow room. Instant closet terraforming.


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## born2killspam (Oct 11, 2008)

No, add roughly 25% by mass sugar to your warm water to dissolve completely.. Let it cool to about 80F, then add a bit of lemon juice, mix ot up, then add bakers yeast.. 
Bakers yeast can't survive alcohol above ~14%, which is what 25% works out to.. Also, yeast can't thrive in sugar solutions stronger than 30-35%..


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 11, 2008)

Brewer's yeast will withstand alcohol up to approximately 25%, and can handle sugar content of up to 60% (grapes hover around 30-45% sugar, depending upon the type, and muscadines can have a whoppping-sweet 65%)


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## Hydrotech364 (Oct 11, 2008)

*Dry ice is frozen co2,buy a block turn on a little fan and done it exhales tons of co2,and cheap too.only while the lights are on though,no good in the dark!!!!!peace*


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 11, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> *Dry ice is frozen co2,buy a block turn on a little fan and done it exhales tons of co2,and cheap too.only while the lights are on though,no good in the dark!!!!!peace*


Plant respiration never stops, light or dark. It's heat and humidity that affects respiration rates in plants.


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## Hydrotech364 (Oct 11, 2008)

KaliKitsune said:


> Plant respiration never stops, light or dark. It's heat and humidity that affects respiration rates in plants.




that info came from a 20+ year master grower i think ill stick with his advice and not waste my ice,,,,peeeeeeace


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## NewGrowth (Oct 11, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> *Dry ice is frozen co2,buy a block turn on a little fan and done it exhales tons of co2,and cheap too.only while the lights are on though,no good in the dark!!!!!peace*


Too much CO2 will kill your plants and it is difficult to control the rate that dry ice "melts" so be careful if you plan on doing this.


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 11, 2008)

Web page killed my reply, look below.


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 11, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> that info came from a 20+ year master grower i think ill stick with his advice and not waste my ice,,,,peeeeeeace


Hi. In my short career I've taught many things, including High School Horticultural Science. Any basic gardening book will tell you the exact same info. Lights do not affect respiration anywhere NEAR the amount temperature and humidity does. The plants respirate through stoma and stomata. These 'pore guards' are cells that shrink and expand in relation mainly to the amount of humidity and the temperature. Higher temperatures shrink the guard cells, and open the pores wider, increasing respiration. Higher humidity will make the cells swell up and conversely choke the respiration rate of the plant.

I recommend the Harcourt-Brace Horticultural Science books, they're very informative and will tell you most everything you need to grow ANYTHING. However, as that is a school book you'll likely only find it from a library or from the actual publisher. Other great independent and well-cited resources include "The Victory Garden" and the Reader's Digest "Year-Round Gardening."


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 11, 2008)

NewGrowth said:


> Too much CO2 will kill your plants and it is difficult to control the rate that dry ice "melts" so be careful if you plan on doing this.


The best thing to do is just toss it in a box with a couple of pencil-sized holes in the sides and the top. This way you don't have to worry so much about overdosing when you've got a bottleneck for release.


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## born2killspam (Oct 14, 2008)

What you said about respiration makes enough sense that I feel stupid for not realizing that before.. You get rep points for that..
I dunno about the dry ice rate positively.. Most ppl exhaust from near the top, and CO2 does like to sit low being heavier than average atmosphere.. I would time the sublimation of a known mass (surface area dependant more than mass actually), then run some rough numbers on room volume.. It probably is safe unless blatantly excessive, but just to be thorough....
As for brewers yeast fermenting to 25%, I want to call utter BS, but more than that I want to find out I'm wrong..
I've fermented/distilled for many years.. I've used TONS of different yeast varieties both commercial and wild.. I use baker's yeast for rum, and EC-1118 (16-17%) for most mashes.. I dislike turbos/champagne yeast (MAYBE 19%) for drinkables.. I drink everything I ferment, and for the sake of flavour I never push my yeast up to their limit..
I have also successfully cultivated _saccharomyces_ carlsbergensis which is a definate brewer's yeast.. Its great for its propensity to break down maltose almost as readily as sucrose, but doesn't really surpass baker's yeast in ABV.. 
Also, when I say 25% sugar, I mean the entire watered down solution works out to 25%.. 
With ideal environment, and alot of patience for a snail's pace fermentation those numbers can maybe be pushed a tad.. Moreso the sugar level than the abv though.. I must admit, I have seen apples with alcohol (maybe 5-10% cider!)right inside the core on the ground in late fall.. Lower temps will also help to push the limits, but will REALLY slow shit down!


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 14, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> What you said about respiration makes enough sense that I feel stupid for not realizing that before.. You get rep points for that..
> I dunno about the dry ice rate positively.. Most ppl exhaust from near the top, and CO2 does like to sit low being heavier than average atmosphere.. I would time the sublimation of a known mass (surface area dependant more than mass actually), then run some rough numbers on room volume.. It probably is safe unless blatantly excessive, but just to be thorough....
> As for brewers yeast fermenting to 25%, I want to call utter BS, but more than that I want to find out I'm wrong..
> I've fermented/distilled for many years.. I've used TONS of different yeast varieties both commercial and wild.. I use baker's yeast for rum, and EC-1118 (16-17%) for most mashes.. I dislike turbos/champagne yeast (MAYBE 19%) for drinkables.. I drink everything I ferment, and for the sake of flavour I never push my yeast up to their limit..
> ...


A real yeast will tolerate quite a bit of it's own waste byproducts - how do you think wines, like 20+% port, is made?

In wines, there is no distillation. How would yhou explain 30% ports and Chardonnays if the yeast can't handle that quantity of alcohol?

I've brewed for many years, almost a decade now. Trust me, you do not need to worry. Just follow even the directions on baker's yeast, it's about half of what's recommended for brewer's yeast. 

In fact, you'd benefit from a brewing operation right alongside your growing operation.


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## born2killspam (Oct 14, 2008)

Actually ports are only partially fermented to preserve the fruit essence as much as possible.. I have never tried my hand at port, so I don't know exactly what SG the fermentation is halted at, but it is actually halted because the must (fermenting liquid) is fortified with brandy (distilled wine).. This puts the abv above the threshhold of the yeast.. Like sherry etc, its a 'fortified' wine..
I've never seen a chardonnay with an even moderately high abv, but I'm really not too knowledgable about them specifically..
I too have fermented and distilled for - well, basically my entire life since I was taught as a pretty young kid, so several decades..
As for the symbiotic relationship between plants, and yeast, I have said many times in these forums that they should be done side by side, so I obviously agree totally on that.. Beyond the CO2, some ethylene, and other things useful to plants are evolved.. 
There is a recent thread where a guy came up with a decent system to use fermentation to pump out timed dosages.. I can't find it in my recent history though and I forget what forum it is in, so unless I go hunting I gotta hope he replies again.. If he revamps some materials though, that could work very well in a non passive way..

Edit: I'm not trying to patronize you with the explanations in brackets.. Those are for readers without fermentation experience..


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## phishhead (Oct 14, 2008)

so for those of following that arn't as smart as you guys......can i just add sugar and water to a dish and put it in the closet for added co2?


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## born2killspam (Oct 15, 2008)

Yea, buy a 2kg (4ish lb) bag of sugar, top up to 10 litres total with sugar (2.5-3.0USGallons with sugar).. Get it dissolved, cool it to 70-100°F and add yeast (atleast a few teaspoons for faster results).. And keep the temp fairly stable.. Doing it properly though isn't much harder than making kool-aid..


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 15, 2008)

My fiance's colleges' biological chemistry class would REALLY love to disagree with you, since they're in the middle of making a 35% brewed wine/liquor, and I'm teaching them how to do it.

There are about 4,000 species of yeast, and many of them can handle 60+% alcohol concentrations. Take an actual microbrewers' biology course (offered in the tri-state area of TN, AK, and MS, where Anheuser-Busch is headquartered) and re-learn your basic biological chemistry. I teach this to my students, don't tell me I'm wrong when I've done it for almost a decade and created a new degree from the study of such reactions. (Thank you, UofR Johnston Program!)


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## bonghits4all (Oct 15, 2008)

NewGrowth said:


> Too much CO2 will kill your plants and it is difficult to control the rate that dry ice "melts" so be careful if you plan on doing this.


that is like saying too much air will kill a human.I know your trying to help but it would take a inordinate amount of co2 to kill a grow room.Im saying if your even inquiring about c02 chances are your running 10-15 plants and no block of dry ice is going to give off too much c02 to do that unless your putting a 100 lb block in there and you would literally have to be down syndrome to do that.Heres the scoupe for anyone interested in the truth.co2 will help your plants with growth, vitality,and yeild. at any incriment a little will help a little.alot can help alot or a little depending on how well regulated it is.you can by tanks and flow regulators you can buy sugar yeast and water or you can buy dry ice.they all produce co2 and will help out how much help depends on you


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## NewGrowth (Oct 15, 2008)

bonghits4all said:


> that is like saying too much air will kill a human.I know your trying to help but it would take a inordinate amount of co2 to kill a grow room.Im saying if your even inquiring about c02 chances are your running 10-15 plants and no block of dry ice is going to give off too much c02 to do that unless your putting a 100 lb block in there and you would literally have to be down syndrome to do that.Heres the scoupe for anyone interested in the truth.co2 will help your plants with growth, vitality,and yeild. at any incriment a little will help a little.alot can help alot or a little depending on how well regulated it is.you can by tanks and flow regulators you can buy sugar yeast and water or you can buy dry ice.they all produce co2 and will help out how much help depends on you


Too much oxygen will kill a human . . . It would take a lot you are right but it is quite possible to reach toxic levels in a sealed room. Dry ice is not a cost effective or reliable method of releasing CO2 either. But since you are the CO2 expert I'll just listen to you


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 15, 2008)

bonghits4all said:


> that is like saying too much air will kill a human.I know your trying to help but it would take a inordinate amount of co2 to kill a grow room.Im saying if your even inquiring about c02 chances are your running 10-15 plants and no block of dry ice is going to give off too much c02 to do that unless your putting a 100 lb block in there and you would literally have to be down syndrome to do that.Heres the scoupe for anyone interested in the truth.co2 will help your plants with growth, vitality,and yeild. at any incriment a little will help a little.alot can help alot or a little depending on how well regulated it is.you can by tanks and flow regulators you can buy sugar yeast and water or you can buy dry ice.they all produce co2 and will help out how much help depends on you


Too much O2 *WILL* kill a human, that's why 100% oxygen is very, very heavily regulated in the medical industry. Too much CO2 will do the same to plants, it's an absolute matter of atmospheric conditions. The point of growing indoors is to simulate outdoor conditions AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE. You *MUST* have a regulated internal atmosphere or else you will kill your plants. I have two Japanese Maples from a friend who is just now learning this lesson. It's going to be a full month in the triage room for them thanks to the crap stuffed environment he's kept them in.


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## Arrid (Oct 15, 2008)

Kali, don't plants reverse their respiration during night time.
I'm pretty sure at night they take in oxygen and release Co2.
Either that or I was not taught properly at school 

So technically, if what I have been taught is true, there is no need to use Co2 when the lights are off


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## KaliKitsune (Oct 15, 2008)

Arrid said:


> Kali, don't plants reverse their respiration during night time.
> I'm pretty sure at night they take in oxygen and release Co2.
> Either that or I was not taught properly at school
> 
> So technically, if what I have been taught is true, there is no need to use Co2 when the lights are off


Plants do not use O2 in any form, they respirate it as a waste byproduct (which we humans use - plants remove the carbon and release the oxygen.)

At night plants stop photosynthesis and rely upon metabolising nutes stored in the roots for growth.

This concludes your horticultural science lesson for the day.


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## bonghits4all (Oct 15, 2008)

smells a little like bs to me


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## born2killspam (Oct 15, 2008)

KaliKitsune said:


> My fiance's colleges' biological chemistry class would REALLY love to disagree with you, since they're in the middle of making a 35% brewed wine/liquor, and I'm teaching them how to do it.
> 
> There are about 4,000 species of yeast, and many of them can handle 60+% alcohol concentrations. Take an actual microbrewers' biology course (offered in the tri-state area of TN, AK, and MS, where Anheuser-Busch is headquartered) and re-learn your basic biological chemistry. I teach this to my students, don't tell me I'm wrong when I've done it for almost a decade and created a new degree from the study of such reactions. (Thank you, UofR Johnston Program!)


Now why would they care about ABSURDLY high theshold in a course where they teach typical brewing.. You NEVER want to push your yeast too hard, they start producing alot more less desirable by-products..
Yeast can manage to grasp at life in some pretty damn inhospitable climates, but I can't believe 'those' numbers until you start citing some abstracts..
Also, not that I think it would matter, but is this a registered strain that they are using, or a hybridization or registered strains? 
Gimme some details on the growth media, and how its adjusted through phases.. What kind of cell counts are you dealing with? What is your pitching rate and attenuation? What are most effective initial dissolved O2 concentrations, and how are they achieved? Obviously you need something to keep more dissolved O2 in the mix than saturation at any reasonable temperature allows, what method are you using to achieve this? I'm always looking to expand my technical knowledge on subjects like these.. Its a compulsion of sorts..


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## COGOGROW (Nov 10, 2008)

KaliKitsune said:


> Plants do not use O2 in any form, they respirate it as a waste byproduct (which we humans use - plants remove the carbon and release the oxygen.)
> 
> At night plants stop photosynthesis and rely upon metabolising nutes stored in the roots for growth.
> 
> This concludes your horticultural science lesson for the day.


I'll disagree with the notion that pants don't use oxygen. dont we all need to use rockwool or airstones or hyrdoton so we can let our roots breathe? I'm pretty sure the roots are not using co2 for photosynthesis, but instead o2 so that they can use the stored nutrients. why else would we need the roots to be exposed to the air? i coud be wrong but I think that oxygen IS needed for plant growth as much as co2. 
if someone is stupid enough to comletely deplete the levels of either co2 or o2 in their growroom they deserve to have their pants die. but prove me wrong and I'll be doing this----->kiss-ass


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## GrowTech (Nov 10, 2008)

I don't know what type of equipment you're using, but the tank in the picture is too small to work with my regulator. Get at least a 20# bottle, and do refills. Otherwise, get a burner. There's no point in making a sloppy mess out of your grow room and putting extra crap like tubs of water, sugar, yeast, etc. Get a tank, regulator, timer, and vent your CO2 air line down between the plants. Set and forget... 

Also... I've gotta LOL at all of the KaliKitsune BS in this thread...

Sounds like some of you are trying to bake a cake, and not grow pot.


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## GrowTech (Nov 10, 2008)

COGOGROW said:


> I'll disagree with the notion that pants don't use oxygen. dont we all need to use rockwool or airstones or hyrdoton so we can let our roots breathe? I'm pretty sure the roots are not using co2 for photosynthesis, but instead o2 so that they can use the stored nutrients. why else would we need the roots to be exposed to the air? i coud be wrong but I think that oxygen IS needed for plant growth as much as co2.
> if someone is stupid enough to comletely deplete the levels of either co2 or o2 in their growroom they deserve to have their pants die. but prove me wrong and I'll be doing this----->kiss-ass


You're right...


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## born2killspam (Nov 10, 2008)

Ironically established trees use more O2 than they produce.. If they aren't growing then they have very little reason to take up CO2..
Yep, and the biggest irony is because of that, many rainforests would produce more oxygen if they were pretty much clear-cut..
I am a fan of boost buckets though.. There is a ton of fermentation happening in nature.. CO2 isn't the only helpful thing produced.. 
I take that back.. Boost buckets suck.. Its a waste of good ETOH.. Make some beer, build a still.. Fermentation and horticulture have a symbiotic relationship in more ways than one..


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## JonnyBtreed (Nov 10, 2008)

KaliKitsune said:


> Too much O2 *WILL* kill a human, that's why 100% oxygen is very, very heavily regulated in the medical industry. Too much CO2 will do the same to plants, it's an absolute matter of atmospheric conditions. The point of growing indoors is to simulate outdoor conditions AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE. You *MUST* have a regulated internal atmosphere or else you will kill your plants. I have two Japanese Maples from a friend who is just now learning this lesson. It's going to be a full month in the triage room for them thanks to the crap stuffed environment he's kept them in.


Ahhh Trees, finally an offhand topic I know quite a bit about. If ya got any questions on growing the Acer Palmatum let me know


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## JonnyBtreed (Nov 10, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> Ironically established trees use more O2 than they produce.. If they aren't growing then they have very little reason to take up CO2..
> Yep, and the biggest irony is because of that, many rainforests would produce more oxygen if they were pretty much clear-cut..
> I am a fan of boost buckets though.. There is a ton of fermentation happening in nature.. CO2 isn't the only helpful thing produced..
> I take that back.. Boost buckets suck.. Its a waste of good ETOH.. Make some beer, build a still.. Fermentation and horticulture have a symbiotic relationship in more ways than one..


That statement has a lot of grey area.... Types of trees, time of year, size. All these thing need to be taken into account as well as their environment.
A pine tree isn't going to produce as much oxygen as a broadleaf tree because its the rate of photosynthesis which determines the amount of Co2 consumed and o2 created. A tree with a leaf instead of a needle has more surface area to photosynthesize therefore resulting in faster growth. So your saying a 100' Elm tree with 10,000 leaves all producing o2 is going to produce less o2 than a 10' elm tree with 250 leaves? Also, because established trees are not "growing" persay their still building up energy all the time. To rebuild broken limbs, seal off dead branches, and creating nutrients for the tree to stay healthy.So in a sense, if it's not physically growing, its still working on creating sugars, which in fact does require exhorbanant amounts of co2.

Ironically Size DOES NOT matter in photosynthesis per say as much as surface area. Marine Algae is the #1 producer of Oxygen on Earth, yet its one of the smallest plant species in the world. Sorry to be off topic, just wanted to throw my two cents in...


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## born2killspam (Nov 10, 2008)

All processes being equal sure it boils down to surface area, but plants don't necessarily work at full capacity when growth isn't critical.. I realize algae is the big one.. It never slows down if environment allows it to go full speed.. Think about the carbon involved, old trees don't continually pack on size, so what happens to all the carbon in the respiration if it keeps getting faster?
A 10' elm tree may not output as much O2 as an older tree, but if thats the case it won't use as much O2 either.. And if you look at it from an area basis, an acre of 10' elm trees will grossly out produce an acre of mature trees..


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## Busmike (Nov 10, 2008)

*Something none of you have mentioned that I think the noobies would like to know before they set up a fermentor is the SMELL. Be prepared for a god awfull odor. Fermenting STINKS! And it's also a good bit of work.*

*On the positive side, if you're willing to put up with the odor, you can start distilling the fermented water and recover the alcohol and get drunk on it! There is a brand of yeast out called Turbo yeast that advertises a 25% yield in 48 hours. Might be wrong on the time, but I also ferment wine, and the 25% is the highest yield I've ever heard of.*

*BUT*

*If the house U grow in has gas running to it, run a blackpipe into your grow space and run an open burner. It's WAYY cheaper than bottled gas, and you can get controllers that will monitor the PPM's and keep them at 1500, which is the recommended PPM's for maximum growth. I bought a commercial CO2 generator, and all it is is a 5 inch burner like you'd see in a gas furnace. The only advantage to buying the Commercial unit is the controller that comes with it.*

*Oh, and I agree that it's beneficial to the grow. CO2 will boost bud production by at LEAST 20%. *


* .*


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## born2killspam (Nov 10, 2008)

Fermenting can smell not too bad if everything is kept nice and sanitary.. I love the smell of a clean rum or beer fermentation.. Fermenting rum smells like cookie dough for quite a while.. Besides, theres already plant odour in the room, and as nice as that is, anything that helps mask it is a good thing IMO..
Regarding the turbo yeast, I HATE THEM!!! I wouldn't touch the piss they produce.. Those numbers are misleading too.. No yeast can hit anything close to 25%abv, they mean 25% conversion of the sugar in the batch within 48 hours.. Actually, a good fermenter can get 75% conversion or more in 2 days with any yeast, but they quote 25% in hopes that naive ppl assume they mean abv, since nobody in their right mind could think 75% is possible for abv..
Baker's yeast can survive up to 14-15%abv (roughly 25% by weight initial sugar)
EC-1118 can survive about 16% and produces good product (~27% initial sugar)
Turbos can survive 16-17% but the flavor SUCKS.. (~28% initial sugar)
Champagne yeast is actually the big boy.. It can survive over 18%, and probably isn't as bad for flavour as turbos are (~30.5% initial sugar) 

Adding more than that is a waste, and adding more than ~35% initial sugar will actually kill the yeast..
Baker's yeast is my personal favorite, and I don't even push it to its limit.. Best flavor, and all around fastest production happens when you aim for about 10% abv (~17% initial sugar).. Fermentation slows waay down when the yeast have to fight high amounts of ETOH.. If you were to compare perpetual yield from limited space/time, like we do with growing, then less concentrated buckets would win..
Oh, and btw the average grow room temp is pretty ideal for fermentation too..


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## COGOGROW (Nov 10, 2008)

I bought my 20lb CO2 tank and hydrofarm regulator and timer today! thanks for the info in this thread, I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do for me


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## dahamma (Nov 10, 2008)

I always wanted to grow weed. I have , and have learned many great ways to increase yield . (thnx to riu). now I always wanted to brew my own mead, and have realized one will help the other.(co2 fermentation) . I recently started brewing my own mead and i am venting the co2 into my grow closet, it's my first brew so fingers crossed , but its also my third harvest and everything I have learned here has helped increase my yield by 10%. by brewing your own hooch you are killing two birds with one stone. fatter weed and home made hooch


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## misterdogman (Nov 10, 2008)

OK so I have some inquiries, I have some DADY turbo moonshine yeast from my brief yet fun times making my own hooch, I know about the Co2 biproduct but how much is produced compared to mixing vinegar and baking soda? or even using tanks, how comparable is yeast in gms released from a tank or reaction, I know it is slower and more constant but how much is it really producing?


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## born2killspam (Nov 10, 2008)

For every molecule of alcohol produced, you get one of CO2.. And they weigh close to the same thing, so the math is easy..
Simplest way to look at it ishowever much sugar you start with, in the end ~50% of the mass can be accounted for in the alcohol, and the other 50% in CO2.. 1lb of CO2 will dilute to roughly 5000cuft of ideal air..


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## K1Ng5p4d3 (Nov 10, 2008)

lol, somebody needs to send snapshots of this conversation to TIME magazine man. WE have just wintnessed irrefuteable proof that Stoners and Growers shouldn't be pigeonholed as idiots and burnouts.....


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## Busmike (Nov 11, 2008)

K1Ng5p4d3 said:


> lol, somebody needs to send snapshots of this conversation to TIME magazine man. WE have just wintnessed irrefuteable proof that Stoners and Growers shouldn't be pigeonholed as idiots and burnouts.....


*Hey....*
*The best way to avoid getting shot is to NOT be a target! *

*Let'em **keep their dilusions!*


*.*


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## smoke and coke (Nov 11, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> Yea, buy a 2kg (4ish lb) bag of sugar, top up to 10 litres total with sugar (2.5-3.0USGallons with sugar).. Get it dissolved, cool it to 70-100°F and add yeast (atleast a few teaspoons for faster results).. And keep the temp fairly stable.. Doing it properly though isn't much harder than making kool-aid..


will doing this make the mixture foam up and over the top of the container if its not tall enough?


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## born2killspam (Nov 11, 2008)

Not much at all if any.. Sugar washes don't have much protien so they tend not to foam.. If you look at the surface in the right light it just looks like cola pitter-pattering away its CO2 long after the initial pouring..
Word of warning though, if you disturb it too much in mid action by stirring/jolting it, it will react like cola would and expell dissolved CO2 quickly like beer.. If you're near the top of a jug it will overflow, but doubtfully in a wide mouthed container like a bucket..


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## Busmike (Nov 11, 2008)

COGOGROW said:


> I bought my 20lb CO2 tank and hydrofarm regulator and timer today! thanks for the info in this thread, I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do for me


*Be sure to let us know how you're regulating it and how long that 20 lb tank lasts you! *
*I did try bottled gas in the be**gin**ni**ng. I bought a cou**ple of 50 LB tanks and had them filled. Might have been a screwup on my part as, at that time, I did'nt have a PPM meter for **CO2, and so I may have had the output way too high, but one full 50 LB tank only lasted me a week! I still have that whole setup, but it sits in a corner, helpin to collect dust since I got the gas burner. If I ever get up enough ambition to have one refilled maybe I'll do a test, since I now have a controller with a meter.*

*No promises though.... I'm a firm beliver in not touching any system that works fine!*

* .*


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## Busmike (Nov 11, 2008)

smoke and coke said:


> will doing this make the mixture foam up and over the top of the container if its not tall enough?


 
*It depends on the TYPE of yeast you use. In winemaking I've had carboys foam over with one type, and not foam at all with another. I've never used Baker's yeast though... but at a guess, I'd think it would foam a lot, so use a tall pail for your attempt... just in case.*


* .*


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## KaliKitsune (Nov 11, 2008)

Having used Baker's Yeast (doing so right now) Expect a 2-2.5x 'rise' when the yeast is activated. Say you have a quart jar, filled with 16oz of water/sugar. Add a teaspoon or so of yeast to that, and the yeast will start creating CO2 at a fair rate. First time I did this many years back, I had a mess all over the floor within the first hourr, because I thought it wouldn't head up so much. I was WRONG! Now I take whatever container I use, and only fill it about 1/3 of the way, then add the proper yeast amount and cover. No messes since with baker's yeast. Add a little sugar and swirl around now and then, and you're good for a couple of weeks. If you're good enough to get an active culture reproducing, you can almost perpetually sustain it with proper changes of solution.


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## misterdogman (Nov 11, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> For every molecule of alcohol produced, you get one of CO2.. And they weigh close to the same thing, so the math is easy..
> Simplest way to look at it ishowever much sugar you start with, in the end ~50% of the mass can be accounted for in the alcohol, and the other 50% in CO2.. 1lb of CO2 will dilute to roughly 5000cuft of ideal air..


1gm sugar in 1 gallon of water makes 1% alcohol
so that makes since..

now im trying to find out how much you get from 1 gm of baking soda to 1 gm of vinegar...im wondering because that reaction releases A LOT of gas and it is only Co2 coming off. We used that method in AG class to enrich flowers and stuff and if yeast was more efficient im sure someone in farmland here would know and use it since its set it and forget it...

Ive just never seen any wort or beer or wine I made fill a balloon instantly, but the reaction will fill several ballons instantly...
Im dubious?

From what I found here below it seems most or all the ions in the reaction get used up too, tit for tat, just like with yeast. But im still looking for actual amounts released...

The reaction between baking soda and vinegar is actually two reactions, an acid base reaction followed by a decomposition reaction.

When the two ingredients are mixed, hydrogen ions ( H+) from the vinegar react with the bicarbonate ions (HCO3- ) from the baking soda to form a new chemical called carbonic acid (H2CO3).


H+ + HCO3- ---> H2CO3
The carbonic acid thus formed then immediately decomposes into carbon dioxide gas (CO2)and water (H2O).


H2CO3 ---> H2O + CO2
It's this carbon dioxide gas that you see bubbling and foaming as soon as you mix baking soda and vinegar together.

Using the molecular structures of only the components *involved*, the chemical reaction can be written:







The overall reaction however, is often written as follows:


NaHCO3 (aq) + CH3COOH (aq) ----> CO2 (g) + H2O (l) + CH3COONa (aq)


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## COGOGROW (Nov 12, 2008)

Busmike said:


> *Be sure to let us know how you're regulating it and how long that 20 lb tank lasts you! *
> *I did try bottled gas in the be**gin**ni**ng. I bought a cou**ple of 50 LB tanks and had them filled. Might have been a screwup on my part as, at that time, I did'nt have a PPM meter for **CO2, and so I may have had the output way too high, but one full 50 LB tank only lasted me a week! I still have that whole setup, but it sits in a corner, helpin to collect dust since I got the gas burner. If I ever get up enough ambition to have one refilled maybe I'll do a test, since I now have a controller with a meter.*
> 
> *No promises though.... I'm a firm beliver in not touching any system that works fine!*
> ...


My 20lb co2 tank has a volume of at least 150cf. So I'm releasing 2cf/day so it lasts me the next 70 days of my grow. My flowrate is high for a 130 cubic foot tent because I have to continuously exhaust the air to keep the smell under control. At $17 a refill it's hard to beat if you have the start-up funds.


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## born2killspam (Nov 12, 2008)

So have you figured out the expected masses? You have more than enough info on the reaction.. If you haven't its as easy as this:
Simplifying the rxn to calculate only what we care about, 1 mole of baking soda makes 1 mole of CO2.. (A mole is like a chemistry dozen.. It works out such that one mole of hydrogen 'atoms' weighs 1g, [and 1 mole of H2 weighs 2g]).. One mole of baking soda weighs 83g, 1mole of CO2 weighs 44 grams, so you'll end up with ~53% of the initial mass of BS in CO2..
1mole of any gas will occupy roughly 23L of space at standard temp/pressure (just under 1cuft).. Plants need that diluted by about 666x though to hit 1500ppm..


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## misterdogman (Nov 12, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> So have you figured out the expected masses? You have more than enough info on the reaction.. If you haven't its as easy as this:
> Simplifying the rxn to calculate only what we care about, 1 mole of baking soda makes 1 mole of CO2.. (A mole is like a chemistry dozen.. It works out such that one mole of hydrogen 'atoms' weighs 1g, [and 1 mole of H2 weighs 2g]).. One mole of baking soda weighs 83g, 1mole of CO2 weighs 44 grams, so you'll end up with ~53% of the initial mass of BS in CO2..
> 1mole of any gas will occupy roughly 23L of space at standard temp/pressure (just under 1cuft).. Plants need that diluted by about 666x though to hit 1500ppm..


 Wow your fast and more efficient, I actually got tired of the math and went to bed, but I was on the same path.
So basically what I deduce from this is yeast can produce 50% of the original mass of sugar as C02...
If the math you provided is correct(which I obviously see it is)... and the reaction of vinegar and baking soda can produce 53% of its mass as C02 then I guess it must be an effective method but faster, yeast is a longer method for slow release, but the reaction is instant and 3% more efficient from what I understand...
I can see it being more dangerous and easier to overdo though because of how much you produce instantly. Much harder to overdo in a yeast bucket that slow releases. But still an interesting method for quick release C02 for your babies...
Thanks for doing and posting my math for me, you rock!


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## kash959 (Nov 22, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> I drink everything I ferment, and for the sake of flavour I never push my yeast up to their limit..


will i be able to produce good CO2 for my plants and get some alcohol then?!


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## wonta (Nov 23, 2008)

Its great to see our members are always hard at work looking for new ways to improve or sucess rate and add more insiteful informtion to this site (ANONTF) great job and good vision.


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## EeekAmouse (Nov 23, 2008)

And heres my formula: 3 gallons per 100 sq ft gets me 1200-1400 ppm thats a 3x6x8' closet with the fan on only at night and for few breif moments during the light cycle. I used a digital meter and sealed my door at the floor.

3 - 1 gallon milk jugs
2 cups sugar dissolved
8 cups water 80 degrees, no more
1 tsp yeast
9' of 3/8 clear tubing
silicone

Drill hole in the cap and install 3' of clear tubing, silicone seal it and clip the other end on your light hood above the plants top. This gas falls, try and contain it.

CO2 makes the room warmer, I call it "wardrobe warming".

ALSO! when your budding and STINKY use "Excellotabs" dissolving in a pot in the room, it releases CO2 and covers the smell with Eucalyptus.


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## coll (Nov 23, 2008)

Out of curiosity, is it safe to have yeast in your grow room? In reference to the whole sugar, water, yeast idea.


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## born2killspam (Nov 23, 2008)

That recipe won't produce anything close to steady output unless its getting stuck at about 50% completion each time because there are no micronutes for the yeast..
And CO2 doesn't make the room warmer 1sugar -> 2alcohol + 2CO2 + heat (about 10MJ for each pound of CO2 produced, which is roughly the same as burning about half the mass of CO2 in propane over the fermentation period..)


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## SayWord (Nov 24, 2008)

EeekAmouse said:


> And heres my formula: 3 gallons per 100 sq ft gets me 1200-1400 ppm thats a 3x6x8' closet with the fan on only at night and for few breif moments during the light cycle. I used a digital meter and sealed my door at the floor.
> 
> 3 - 1 gallon milk jugs
> 2 cups sugar dissolved
> ...



more on these excellotabs! where u get them?


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## MR. MAGNUM (Nov 24, 2008)

I`ve found my Sugar & Yeast system to heat up more than a bit.


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## born2killspam (Nov 24, 2008)

It will produce more than 2/3 the heat you'd get if you burned all the alcohol you fermented..


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## born2killspam (Nov 24, 2008)

Dude, you made your own hose out of a usb cable, and instructed ppl to do the same..
Thats hilarious.. It'll work, but thats hilarious..
(I've actually done that in a pinch a few times)


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## COGOGROW (Nov 24, 2008)

i thought fish tank tubing was cheaper than usb cables...


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## born2killspam (Nov 24, 2008)

Not if you're tripping over hundreds of them on a daily basis because they come with pretty much anything you buy these days.. They are waay over priced if you actually need to buy one for any purpose though..


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## COGOGROW (Nov 25, 2008)

lol, soo true


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## born2killspam (Nov 25, 2008)

It really looks like more ppl are just interested in making CO2 with simple sugar washes than there are ppl looking to multitask and brew up something nice to drink..
If you aren't interested in producing alcohol at all, then you could get 3x the CO2 yield from the sugar fermenting (well not really fermenting) under aerobic conditions.. Same recipes apply, just add an air-pump and stone.. You'd essentially be farming yeast, so make sure they get their vitamines too.. Yeast are made up of MUCH more than C H O atoms
The chemistry if you're interested is:
C6H12O6 + 6O2 -> 6H2O + 6CO2 + heat


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## Busmike (Nov 25, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> It really looks like more ppl are just interested in making CO2 with simple sugar washes than there are ppl looking to multitask and brew up something nice to drink..
> If you aren't interested in producing alcohol at all, then you could get 3x the CO2 yield from the sugar fermenting (well not really fermenting) under aerobic conditions.. Same recipes apply, just add an air-pump and stone.. You'd essentially be farming yeast, so make sure they get their vitamines too.. Yeast are made up of MUCH more than C H O atoms
> The chemistry if you're interested is:
> C6H12O6 + 6O2 -> 6H2O + 6CO2 + heat


*Yea....*

*That really is fermenting, and your sugar WILL produce alcohol, which you can, if you want to, distill out using a very simple still. *

*Take a small metal trash can and dump in the solution left over from the sugar/yeast reaction (after the liquid stops bubbling) Put a coil of rope in the center of the trash can and put a fairly wide mouthed glass container in the center. Put the trash can lid on the can, but upside down, so that it forms a little inverted cone which should center it's tip on the glass jar. Put a trash bag over the can lid and duct tape it to the sides of the can, forming a seal.*
*Now dump a bag of ice into the lid of the can and apply heat to the bottom of the can (gas range, propane, coleman stove, electric, etc.*
*The alcohol will evaporate out faster than the water because it's evaporation point is WAY lower than that of water, So it'll rise up and hit the ice cooled bottom of the trash can, recondense, run down the lid to the point, and drip into the glass container.*

*Warning....*
*The longer you apply heat to this, the more water will condense into the glass container. diluting your Booze!*


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## born2killspam (Nov 26, 2008)

Why would you want to evaporate all the alcohol away when you could convert iy to CO2? If you're suggesting that this is a good method for building a Chinese still then you're going to get ppl sick from metal poisoning.. Only copper or stainless steeil should be used to make any part of a still that will contact the vapour!
Are you confusing this aerobic respiration with the anaerobic fermentaion equation C6H12O6 -> 2C2H5OH + 2CO2 + heat ?


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## Busmike (Nov 26, 2008)

born2killspam said:


> Why would you want to evaporate all the alcohol away when you could convert iy to CO2? If you're suggesting that this is a good method for building a Chinese still then you're going to get ppl sick from metal poisoning.. Only copper or stainless steeil should be used to make any part of a still that will contact the vapour!
> Are you confusing this aerobic respiration with the anaerobic fermentaion equation C6H12O6 -> 2C2H5OH + 2CO2 + heat ?


*Look, DIPSHIT....*

*This, as in MANY of your posts is complete bullshit. If you don't know what you're talking about, and are too damn lazy to google up valid information, Then KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!*

*1. Alcohol is the BYPRODUCT of fermantation. (Basically it's yeast shit) It, IN NO WAY, PRODUCES CO2. It, in fact kills yeast cells, stopping the fermentation process when the concentration reaches a particular percentage, which is why, if you use a hydrometer in a solution that has stopped reacting, you will still see a small amount of sugar present. Adding more yeast at this point is generally a waste, because the high alcohol content kills the new cells very quickly. You CAN use a spoonful or 2 in a new sugar water solution as a starter, but no more.*

*2. The "Chinese still" (Where the hell did you get THAT word?) I describe IS safe to use, since every OTHER person on the planet would know enough to CLEAN it first, and since it's galvanized(IE steel, flash coated with ZINC) it will not add anything toxic to the human body (Go to any drug store and ask for Zinc tablets)*

*This method was first used BY ME in 1972 to produce Hash oil, and I got the info from a book (that I STILL HAVE by the way) on this very subject. I've since used it many times as I described above to do exactly what I described (Haven't made hash oil since... it's too messy for my tastes) But I have used this method for years to both add CO2 to my grows, and to get free booze. And as you MAY be able to deduce (Not sure in YOUR case)... I'm still alive and kicking.*

*I'm curious....*

*What do you get out of all the BULLSHIT you post? Are you a cop? Or just another asshole that gets off posting BULLSHIT and LIES?*


* .*


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## born2killspam (Nov 26, 2008)

Go to homedistiller.org, and see what the experts have to say about galvanized steel in a still.. And a chinese still is a top condensing still like you describe.. They are neat, and perhaps push more of the flavour to the distillate than any other still, but they have many hassles, and its pretty much impossible to separate foreshots and heads with that design.. Anybody interested in distilling should research what would be the best still for their tastes, and either buy one off ebay (pretty much as cheap as you can build one, but don't get an Easy-Still), or research proper building methods.. I have a reflux still, a couple of pot-stills with thumpers, and something similar to what you describe (but not a trash-can) for the rare time I feel like a hearty drink that will hang me over..
I've talked about yeast alcohol tolerance exactly like you described in a few threads already.. Thats why I posted recipes calculated to use all the sugar before the yeast halt..
Alchohol is a byproduct of yeast respiration in an environment without dissolved O2.. In this 'mode' per se, they merely sustain themselves for the most part to conserve energy because of the inceased energy cost of harvesting all of their O2 from the sugar..
When there is dissolved oxygen, and nutrients available, the yeast will tend to 
go into more of a reproductive mode.. In this mode, the dominant reaction will be the one requiring initial O2.. That is why you want to oxygenate your wash as much as possible initially so the yeast can form a colony.. A good fermentation contains more than 10 million yeast cells per mL.. In reality, both of the reactions will occur in any setup, but the eqilibrium gets shifted hugely..


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