# Hps vs New L.E.D.s



## J. Killroy13 (Oct 14, 2016)

I am sure this has been covered before but I set my room up with a 600w hps. I have been thinking about getting an led to cut down on electricity and heat. My main concern is plant production. So to the vetters out there who have tried both, what are my realistic expectations?
How to they really compare in plant productivity?
How much can I honestly save in electricity?
How much temp do they cut out?
Is there any drawbacks of using them that I am not thinking about?
I just have 4 babies in a little Nft system, any help will be appreciated.
Productivity is my main focus but don't care to invest the money for a better future.


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## majins (Oct 14, 2016)

For me, I went from HPS and MH 600W, to Chinese 900W LED first off.
Veg growth was slower, And had cal+mag def which I had never had before. Flowering was about the same.
That was before I knew anything about LEDs, Once I knew a bit more and to really measure there power from the wall it was only 400W from the wall. Heat wasnt much better.

Then I went the CREE 3070 cobs (4 of them driven at 50W each). (200W from the wall)
Basically couldnt tell the difference growth wise from the HPS and MH, Just had to run the LED quite close (1-2 feet from tops)
Same feeding worked perfectly again and didnt have a cal+mag def. Temp was way down to the point where I had to decrease watering to 1 and a half to 2 weeks instead of weekly.

Cant really compare the next upgrades I did since I switched to DWC.
But added 2 more 3070 at 50W each and id never go back to HPS or MH.
Find my self running out of space easily now and 3 plants can fill my 1.8X2.5M space with 4 weeks veg.

At the moment im collecting parts for my next upgrade which will be CitiLED 1825 COBs water cooled.


But if you want to look at it from the numbers.
HPS only 30% of the power goes into light.
The 3070 driven at 50W each 42% goes into light.
And the 1825 at 120W each your around 50% into light.


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## J. Killroy13 (Oct 14, 2016)

I'm gonna have to research that a little more, I am afraid I'm kinda old school and haven't even heard of some of those. I just keep hearing LEDs are the future. I have ventilation and odor control with dehumidifcation. I just am looking for less electricity and heat without loosing yeild of my Nft, pulled over an lb of lemon og last grow. I want to improve and try to cut variable costs at the same time.


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## HydoDan (Oct 14, 2016)

I just did the change for the same reasons as you..I cooked some plants when a fan failed...
Look into DIY cob leds.. they are the way to go.. I went with a kit from Timder.. very easy to build..
Temps are down from hi 80s to 74.. I added a bigger dehumidifier and got it to 80.. I was running
close to 1k watts now I'm at 460.. check this out..
https://www.rollitup.org/t/sixstrings-cob-build.903026/


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## HandyGringo (Oct 14, 2016)

LEDS > HPS. But you're paying for it, up front.


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## J. Killroy13 (Oct 14, 2016)

Thanks hydrodan that showed me a lot, now to find a thread cobs for dummies.


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## HydoDan (Oct 14, 2016)

You tube vids by growmau5... there are 7+ vids


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## rkymtnman (Oct 14, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> I set my room up with a 600w hps.


maybe don't change your light but change your growing style. what if you did like 4 or 6 plants in a circle around the 600 hung vertically? check out heath robinson stadium grows on youtube and that will give you inspiration. he blows a grow up with a 600.


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## testiclees (Oct 14, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> Thanks hydrodan that showed me a lot, now to find a thread cobs for dummies.


Take your time learning about this shit bro. The more you know the more you grow.

I can never thank supra &co enough for the abundance that grew from their sharing.


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## J. Killroy13 (Oct 14, 2016)

Gnotobiotic trying to rush anything, with changing the lights and I will research everything before any changes. I just have heat issues and would like to be more stealthy on energy consumption. What I got works well but there is always room for improvement.


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## Banana444 (Oct 15, 2016)

With leds, there are literally billions of options, but here are two main routes you can go, monos(only emit one wavelength of light and are rated in nanometers) and whites (they will be rated by kelvin temperature). Monos are good but only if you are using the absolute best led diodes available right now. And next year they will make better ones. Red and white combos work great. Reds are the most efficient emmiters, right now cree xpe-2 or oslon 120 i think. Problem with most led companies, they wont evem tell you what leds they are using (these lights suck and are what give leds a bad name, much worse than hps for sure).
The other option, full spectrum whites work great. The light is full spectrum similiar to hps except much higher cri, 70,80,and 90 cri. Where hps is somewhere in the 30s. Before cobs they just had 1w 3w and 5w chips, which are a pain to solder 50+ together to make a decent size light, not to mention the cost. Cobs changed all that, now you have a single diode that when run between 50-75ws gives you hetween 160-200 lumens per watt. Also our plants grow better under full spectrum than under blurple light. So right now cobs are the bees neees in terms of most light output in the best spectrum and virtually no heat. I am now checking my grow to make sure temps are high enough. And you should get same yield results or better (less heat) with about 300-400ws of cree cxb3590 cobs. You could also make a far red, flower initiator light to cut down flowering time.


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## mopaNi (Oct 15, 2016)

^nice post


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 15, 2016)

i agree, cobs are the way to go, more light for less energy, less heat, so you can do away with the huge inline fans and just use a small fan to run a filter for odor control. that means you can water less because your plants aren't sitting in a huge wind tunnel being constantly desiccated.
the only drawback is cost. i started with hps, and as soon as i can afford to im replacing it with cobs. use the hps to make the money to buy the cobs...then you can use the money to buy a boat and go fishin


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## Twilightbud (Oct 15, 2016)

HydoDan said:


> I just did the change for the same reasons as you..I cooked some plants when a fan failed...
> Look into DIY cob leds.. they are the way to go.. I went with a kit from Timder.. very easy to build..
> Temps are down from hi 80s to 74.. I added a bigger dehumidifier and got it to 80.. I was running
> close to 1k watts now I'm at 460.. check this out..
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/sixstrings-cob-build.903026/


How can you really say they are the way to go ??? people are getting decent results with cob' tech its not going to stop there look at the stocks ? Cree has leveled off and is dropping could 2018 bring out a better lighting technology ??
Well if we look at our advancements from 10 years ago YES Cree cobs will be the HPS of the led industry 

With all the fairy tales and lies we see and here daily Yes even from growers on here claiming unreal yields specially with cobs soon anyone can really say yes its better efficient.. But it lacks in penetration and with that yield more efficient less yield ???

Kinda sounds like a moot point but is it ??? Lets have a look HPS you need AC units cause of the heat ??? well i have grown now for over 35 years consistently and only start indoor growing in end of oct with fresh air in 6 - 8 k rooms no AC needed actually use the heat for my benefit

Point being is claims you need to cool down your room and ventilation there for operating costs are more ???
Well when we look at normal grow room design ventilation / Fresh air is one of the most important parts of any design or properly built grow rooms and even tents have i vents

i can post millions of pictures of heat stressed Cob grows so again another well orchestrated lie 
that LED or cob does not produce heat truth is all power sources produce heat if that wast not the case WTF would a person need a heat sink for ?? 

And last is how tight has a person gone worrying about 1 - 3 dollar savings a month on power cause that is what it really comes down to pennies 
From the moment you took your first breath was the moment sometime in the future you will take your last breath 

Same thing applies with everything including lights from the moment its turned on its slow path to death is going to happen sooner or later 

So which is better well it comes down to what are you growing in a bread box or a green house or a regular room ..
work with what you got learn try new things which means yes even new lighting 

But truth is there is really no better LED Cob or HPS find the one that suits you and that is it 

Makes me sick when i here Hid destroyer or cob,
is so much better .. its not it never has been its just another light source an what may work good for your situation here one plant grow 1000 watts over 8 pound what is that for GPW anyone ??? you know anyone with them Einstein skills lol 

Yup cob destroyer lol  

Have a great day


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## HydoDan (Oct 15, 2016)

Twilightbud said:


> How can you really say they are the way to go ??? people are getting decent results with cob' tech its not going to stop there look at the stocks ? Cree has leveled off and is dropping could 2018 bring out a better lighting technology ??
> Well if we look at our advancements from 10 years ago YES Cree cobs will be the HPS of the led industry
> 
> With all the fairy tales and lies we see and here daily Yes even from growers on here claiming unreal yields specially with cobs soon anyone can really say yes its better efficient.. But it lacks in penetration and with that yield more efficient less yield ???
> ...


I bought my first hid in 1972 ....fluors before that ...So I have some experience with old technology...
I ran our co-op from 96-2015.. All with hid.. well over a thousand plants a year..
I've had my COBs for roughly 2 months..I don't need Einstein
to tell me which is superior... Experience tells me. Oh yeah, light bill is down over $20 per month.. not $3..
Have you run cobs?? Where are the millions of pics of heat stressed plants under cobs? How many heat stress pics under hid can you find? Show me.. convince me..I've run both!! Have you??


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 15, 2016)

i can say they're the way to go because i live now, not ten years from now. it doesn't matter what we'll call them in ten years, because its not ten years from now.
when did the hid industry get to you? what did they promise you? you've changed man, you've changed....
i say things because thats what i think, i've looked at peoples results growing under them. if you're getting heat stress, its because you're fucking stupid and not placing them right.
they work, and they use less electricity and produce less heat than a mh or a hps while they're doing it. period. why the fuck wouldn't you use a light that produces a better spectrum, more of it, for less energy and heat? 
hid works, but its old tech, tex, so get the fuck off that high horse and open your eyes


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## BobCajun (Oct 15, 2016)

There's not a huge power saving, if any. Main benefit is less heat inside the chamber due to lack of infrared and you don't have to change bulbs every few months due to the output dropping off. I don't particularly like cob LEDs on their own, but they work well in combination with other types of lights. I like to put a few warm white CFLs in with them, and CFL reptile lights near the end of flowering. Without the UV it's not quite as good but still about the same as with HPS, which also has no significant UV. One particular advantage of LED is that you don't need much in the way of reflectors, because they're built in. The back of the LED is a reflector.


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## Twilightbud (Oct 15, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> There's not a huge power saving, if any. Main benefit is less heat inside the chamber due to lack of infrared and you don't have to change bulbs every few months due to the output dropping off. I don't particularly like cob LEDs on their own, but they work well in combination with other types of lights. I like to put a few warm white CFLs in with them, and CFL reptile lights near the end of flowering. Without the UV it's not quite as good but still about the same as with HPS, which also has no significant UV. One particular advantage of LED is that you don't need much in the way of reflectors, because they're built in. The back of the LED is a reflector.


Exactly 1500 watts coming out of a wall with a hair dryer or 1500 watts coming out of the wall from a cob is still 1500 watts of electricity no matter how you shake it right ???

Hydro Dan perfect return answer yup everyone has been growing for decades is another moot point you say you been using it now for 2 months and claim its by far out performing is again another brain wash religious saying ..
you should be unbiased and wait till a few grows have been done then mention your opinion ..

I read this somewhere so average cob builder runs his unit at 52 percent efficient can i ask you What on gods earth is the other 48 percent ???

I am not here to start some pissing match, over new LED or cob units there the ones or companies claiming this 300 watt led or cob is better then 600 or 1000 watt hid ...
I am to old to really give a shit either way honestly but if it was true then we would see it consistently ?? and if we did there be no DEBATE
Maybe just maybe a person could not grow with a hid light and is having better success with LED or cob . or maybe there just became better growers overall and bolster that Cob lighting or LED got them there ..

But for your answer as in heat stress you do not think Cobs produce heat stress here lets look at a picture of what heat stress , looks like.
And a picture i pulled from this site 400 watt Cob grow or is it thirsty ?? no harm intended to the original grower just making a point


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## majins (Oct 15, 2016)

LOL, OP just ignore the people going on about HPS, clearly they havnt used LED.
People get too tired up with comparing Watts,
Sure when your running both HPS and LED at 600W there isnt going to be a power saving. But if you compare the light output the LED is going to be atleast 20% more for a CREE 3590 if your running a balanced string of them and not just 1 massively over driven one. Also that heat is going to be down 20% at the same wattage.
How can you just shrug off a 20% improvement and say its a waste of time, You could run the LED at 480W and it would be good replacement for 600W HPS.
I remember when digital ballasts just became a thing and people were saying they were a god send for a 2% improvement and every one was jumping on them except the old guys which this thread reminds me of, Going on about how there old school one gives the best light.

The light penetration is also a moot point. You dont just run 1 COB LED. You run a few of them so you place them around the room giving better light spread, And you run them closer since there is less heat.
The only down side of LED at the moment is the buy in price.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 15, 2016)

Twilightbud said:


> or maybe there just became better growers overall


No it cant be. Its the cobs. Doesn't matter.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 15, 2016)

majins said:


> LOL, OP just ignore the people going on about HPS


WTF? The op asked a question. You'll get different answers.


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## HydoDan (Oct 15, 2016)

Until you compare and use cobs... you have no idea what you are missing... ignorance will do that...
I'm not to old to learn!!


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## Banana444 (Oct 15, 2016)

Twilightbud said:


> How can you really say they are the way to go ??? people are getting decent results with cob' tech its not going to stop there look at the stocks ? Cree has leveled off and is dropping could 2018 bring out a better lighting technology ??
> Well if we look at our advancements from 10 years ago YES Cree cobs will be the HPS of the led industry
> 
> With all the fairy tales and lies we see and here daily Yes even from growers on here claiming unreal yields specially with cobs soon anyone can really say yes its better efficient.. But it lacks in penetration and with that yield more efficient less yield ???
> ...





Twilightbud said:


> How can you really say they are the way to go ??? people are getting decent results with cob' tech its not going to stop there look at the stocks ? Cree has leveled off and is dropping could 2018 bring out a better lighting technology ??
> Well if we look at our advancements from 10 years ago YES Cree cobs will be the HPS of the led industry
> 
> With all the fairy tales and lies we see and here daily Yes even from growers on here claiming unreal yields specially with cobs soon anyone can really say yes its better efficient.. But it lacks in penetration and with that yield more efficient less yield ???
> ...


Man there nothing worse than growing a whole room of shitty weed. Hps sucks, has low cri. You should be pulling for those 315w CMH or whatever they are, about the same results as a 600w hps. Why? Higher cri, more better quality light in the right spectrum for plant growth. This is not rocket science.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 15, 2016)

HydoDan said:


> . you have no idea what you are missing


What do you mean?


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## jimihendrix1 (Oct 15, 2016)

IMHO the Hortilux HPS x Super Bulb, ( 400-1000 Watt ) is a great Blue Enhanced HPS Plant Bulb x High CRI x High PAR. 88,00 lumens.

I myself would NEVER use just a regular HPS bulb with No Blue Enhancement. I would use a Hortilux Blue, before I wuld use a regular HPS x No Blue Light.

You have to have Blue Light. The Hortilux HPS Super Bulb 145,000 lumens, is a great all around bulb. I use them in both Veg/Flower.


600 watt bulb is correct CRI x High Par, and High Lumen output. 88,000 lumens.




*Hortilux HSHP160 LU600S/HTL/EN Super HPS 600W Grow Light Bulb (U Lamp E-1*






*Features*

2,100K rating for bloom / flowering stage
High power 1000 Watts (HPS) bulb
145,000 lumens high output
Provides 25% more energy in violet, blue and green
Average life span 20,000 to 24,000 hours
HPS bulb give out 10% more light than standard bulb - 10% increase of light output = 10 % more plant growth
Offers 17% more total spectral energy
Produces more spectral balance for increased plant response and accelerated growth
Feature the exclusive HORTILUX Spectrum
Are individually tested before they ship
*What's in The Box*

(1) Hortilux Super HPS 600W Grow Light Bulb (U Lamp E-1
Owner’s Manual
*Warranty*

30 Day Satisfaction Guaranteed
*Specifications*
Watts 600 Watt
Bulb Type High Pressure Sodium
Initial Lumens 88,000
Bulb Shape E18
Base Type Mogul (E39)
Warm-Up Time 5 min.
ANSI Code S106
Operating Position Universal
Fixture Requirement Open
Plant Stage Flowering
Color Temp 2,100K


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## maxamus1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Twilightbud said:


> Exactly 1500 watts coming out of a wall with a hair dryer or 1500 watts coming out of the wall from a cob is still 1500 watts of electricity no matter how you shake it right ???
> 
> Hydro Dan perfect return answer yup everyone has been growing for decades is another moot point you say you been using it now for 2 months and claim its by far out performing is again another brain wash religious saying ..
> you should be unbiased and wait till a few grows have been done then mention your opinion ..
> ...


 I have not grown as long as you have nor am I trying to start anything but that first pic looks like it was taken outside boss.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

jimihendrix1 said:


> IMHO the Hortilux HPS x Super Bulb, ( 400-1000 Watt ) is a great Blue Enhanced HPS Plant Bulb x High CRI x High PAR. 88,00 lumens.
> 
> I myself would NEVER use just a regular HPS bulb with No Blue Enhancement. I would use a Hortilux Blue, before I wuld use a regular HPS x No Blue Light.
> 
> ...


That guy doesn't know how to grow if he got less weight from a gavita than a normal single ended 1000w hps.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> Man there nothing worse than growing a whole room of shitty weed. Hps sucks, has low cri. You should be pulling for those 315w CMH or whatever they are, about the same results as a 600w hps. Why? Higher cri, more better quality light in the right spectrum for plant growth. This is not rocket science.


I don't think you are right, isn't CRI more for human eyes, I don't think it makes a huge difference in plants as they don't see the same spectrum we do. Pretty sure CRI has to do with the clarity of the light, higher CRI are used for photography and surgical care because they allow HUMAN eyes to see more clearly but don't really have to do with PAR. I think it also has to do with how even the spectrum is but clearly HPS grows great weed and has a very low CRI like 20.


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## jimihendrix1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Yes..

CRI can be Over Rated.

Main thing is to replicate the sun as closely as possible. Including UVA/UVB.

I also like to use Arcadia 14% Desert Reptile/Bearded Dragon UVA/UVB Bulbs

It could also be the guy got Less from the Gavita as they will have more heat if run full out.

The guy also stated the growing conditions were Not Optimal..

But it just proves that the Color Corrected Hortilux Super Bulb is a very good choice.... ESPECIALLY for the $$$$$$$, and will be close to equaling any bulb on the market.

But I also AGREE that in theory the GAVITA should outperform the Hortilux. No Question.

I also saw a comparison of the Gavita 1000 vs 600 watt Extreme 336x Pro LED vs 1000 watt Digilux, and the Gavita was 25% Higher PAR than the Digilux, and 125% MORE than the LED. And the Gavita was only set on 1000 watts. And can go higher.

The measurement was also 24 inches.

The Gavita rated an 18

Digilux 15.5.... 155,000 lumens

LED 8.8

The Gavita on 100% output was so powerful, ( 1150 watts ) it washed out the meter !!!!. So call it a Conservative 20+ anyway.

Also an Honest Test of the Gavita shows it pulls 1240 watts at full power..Im pretty sure the 1150 is Factory claimed. So its even more powerful than factory claims.

The Gavita also has almost Exactly the same Color Spectrum as the Hortilux.

Also the Gavita is recommended to be used with the Plasma Bulb.. Which is HUGELY EXPENSIVE. But im sure is a very nice combination, with tremendous Color similar to the SUN.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Yes..
> 
> CRI can be Over Rated.
> 
> ...


What kind of meter is he using?


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## BobCajun (Oct 15, 2016)

Personally, my gripe with HIDs is that it's a lot of light/heat concentrated in one very small area. To avoid that you would have to use a bunch of low wattage HIDs, and then they get considerably less efficient. It's actually pretty dangerous having something that hot around. You can easily burn yourself if you happen to touch it by accident. With cobs, lower wattage ones are actually more efficient than high wattage ones, or at least the same. You can also touch any part and not get burned, though I wouldn't advise it. They just seem more user friendly and safe to me, plus they don't break as easily. 

For me the only practical light sources are LED and CFL. I'm just not going to mess around with extremely hot and fragile things. I used HPS before but I sure don't miss them. Very happy with the cob LED and CFL combo. I use CFLs alone for veg mode btw. I find they work very well. Obviously less efficient than LEDs or HPS but with a small setup like I have it's not really an issue.


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## jimihendrix1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Light Scout Quantum PAR Meter.

Ive been using HID since 1976, and never had a problem, and if you use a good hood that diffuses the light theres no bad hot spots ect.

I like the Magnum XXL Hood. Dimensions: 38-1/2" long x 29-1/2" wide x 9-1/2" tall


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Personally, my gripe with HIDs is that it's a lot of light/heat concentrated in one very small area. To avoid that you would have to use a bunch of low wattage HIDs, and then they get considerably less efficient. It's actually pretty dangerous having something that hot around. You can easily burn yourself if you happen to touch it by accident. With cobs, lower wattage ones are actually more efficient than high wattage ones, or at least the same. You can also touch any part and not get burned, though I wouldn't advise it. They just seem more user friendly and safe to me, plus they don't break as easily.
> 
> For me the only practical light sources are LED and CFL. I'm just not going to mess around with extremely hot and fragile things. I used HPS before but I sure don't miss them. Very happy with the cob LED and CFL combo. I use CFLs alone for veg mode btw. I find they work very well. Obviously less efficient than LEDs or HPS but with a small setup like I have it's not really an issue.


I don't think it works like that, if you have equal wattage in an enclosed system the heat value will be the same, 1000w of light = 1000w of heat. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed only transformed into different forms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics


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## majins (Oct 15, 2016)

Extreme 336x Pro LED panels are a joke. 5 nearly 6 year old technology, LED market has been changing so fast, Youd buy something today and 6months time youd have something that replaces it easily.
They advertise it as 1000W replacement with 600W where the reviews from actural users on forums show its only a 340W from the wall.
Cree, Citi, vero decent cobs destroy them and half the power and hell of a lot cheaper.
24 inches is quite far away to run a LED.




Yodaweed said:


> I don't think it works like that, if you have equal wattage in an enclosed system the heat value will be the same, 1000w of light = 1000w of heat. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed only transformed into different forms.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics


Except you dont get 1000W of light.
You may put in 1000W but you get 300W of light and 700W of heat.
Then that light gets transformed again, hopefully into plant growth.


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## jimihendrix1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Heat is Heat.

600 watt LED is as hot as a 600 HID, and is harder to cool.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

majins said:


> Extreme 336x Pro LED panels are a joke. 5 nearly 6 year old technology, LED market has been changing so fast, Youd buy something today and 6months time youd have something that replaces it easily.
> They advertise it as 1000W replacement with 600W where the reviews from actural users on forums show its only a 340W from the wall.
> Cree, Citi, vero decent cobs destroy them and half the power and hell of a lot cheaper.
> 24 inches is quite far away to run a LED.
> ...


I don't think that's right, 1000w of light is a 1000w heat engine in an enclosed system, all the energy will be converted to heat.


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## Banana444 (Oct 15, 2016)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Heat is Heat.
> 
> 600 watt LED is as hot as a 600 HID, and is harder to cool.


Thats just plain wrong. The most efficent leds covert more of that 600watts into light and less into heat. Leds are easy to cool, you can simply mount then on a slab of aluminum or pin heatsinks and if you do a little math and get big enough heatsinks, very little in fans are needed.


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## Nugachino (Oct 15, 2016)

Here's a 2wk old bagseed grown under 90w GrowSmart LED @ 1ft. A few hiccups in there too. As seen on that lower leaf.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> Thats just plain wrong. The most efficent leds covert more of that 600watts into light and less into heat. Leds are easy to cool, you can simply mount then on a slab of aluminum or pin heatsinks and if you do a little math and get big enough heatsinks, very little in fans are needed.


except that isn't true and actually goes against the laws of nature, you might want to read up about physics.

Side note, this is one of the reasons you can easily convert watts to btu's

http://www.convertunits.com/from/Btu+per+hour/to/watt

Source of wattage doesn't matter because all watts are created equally


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 15, 2016)

good led lights emit pure wavelengths of light without the waste in uv and unused wavelengths of hids, they don't have to muscle out a ton of shit thats of no use to the plant, to get the part that is of use. thats why with good leds, like cree and citi, you get more effect for the wattage put into it.
a 600 watt cobb will produce as much heat as a 600 watt hid, but it will produce a lot purer, more usable light for that heat


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> good led lights emit pure wavelengths of light without the waste in uv and unused wavelengths of hids, they don't have to muscle out a ton of shit thats of no use to the plant, to get the part that is of use. thats why with good leds, like cree and citi, you get more effect for the wattage put into it.
> a 600 watt cobb will produce as much heat as a 600 watt hid, but it will produce a lot purer, more usable light for that heat


UV isn't wasted, it increases tric production up to 20% , UV-B in particular works the best and MANY LED users are implementing a UV supplement. That's the main reason gavita suggests plasma supplementation, those suckers produce a ton of UV.


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## jimihendrix1 (Oct 15, 2016)

I dont think anything penetrates like a 1000 watt Gavita on full blast.

I ALWAYS use fans regardless.

I grow Large Plants, in Large 20 Gallon Containers with Promix BX. With 3 1000 watt Hortilux Super Bulbs I can do 6 x 20 Gallon Containers, and 5 x 5 Gallon containers and can get anywhere from 65-96oz. Depending on the strain I'm using.

The Fans allow constant Wind which acts as a stressor, and makes the Stems/Stalks Stronger. I also Bend, and Shake my plants to increase strength. Some plants are too stiff to bend though. Fans for me are critical. And not just for ducting.. Of which I don't do, as I have a large area, and in all but the hottest conditions, I don't have to worry about heat or Ventilation. I also have great ventilation, and feel fresh air is vital, and with enough fresh air exchange, you can also get away with hotter temperatures before it mucks with growth.

I also feel CO2 is Useless unless you have 100% Air Tight Chamber. I prefer constant fresh air exchange.

Also I'm not saying LED cant grow Fantastic Weed. It Can, and I think the lights will get better and better.

Ive smoked Great Weed with regular T8s 40 years ago.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 15, 2016)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Heat is Heat.
> 
> 600 watt LED is as hot as a 600 HID, and is harder to cool.


How the fuck do you figure that? You've clearly have never used COBs before. HIDs are way hotter than solid state lighting, and solid state is way easier to keep cool. My 89w Tasty Cree CXB3590 3500k puts out the PPFD of a 400-600w HID in a smaller 2x2 are. I use two to get my entire closet for less than 200w.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> How the fuck do you figure that? You've clearly. Never used COBs before. HIDs are way hotter than solid state lighting, and solid state is way easier to keep cool.


1000w of HPS = 1000w of COB = 1000w of a heater , all watts convert to BTU at the same rate.

http://www.convertunits.com/from/Btu+per+hour/to/watt


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 15, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> UV isn't wasted, it increases tric production up to 20% , UV-B in particular works the best and MANY LED users are implementing a UV supplement. That's the main reason gavita suggests plasma supplementation, those suckers produce a ton of UV.


i'm sorry, meant IR, not uv, i actually run a couple of reptile lights myself


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> i'm sorry, meant IR, not uv, i actually run a couple of reptile lights myself


Yea IR is kinda wasteful , I don't think it falls under the McCree chart and HPS lights make a good 10-20% Spectral Power in IR.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 15, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> 1000w of HPS = 1000w of COB = 1000w of a heater , all watts convert to BTU at the same rate.
> 
> http://www.convertunits.com/from/Btu+per+hour/to/watt


No it isn't. At all. Plants don't read watts, they read PAR plus UV and IR. And like I said, solid state is no where near as hot as HID. HID wastes watts in unusable wavelengths, mostly converted into heat. I actually have to add a heater in my room because it gets too cold.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> No it isn't. At all. Plants don't read watts, they read PAR plus UV and IR. And like I said, solid state is no where near as hot as HID. I actually have to add a heater in my room because it gets too cold.


PAR has nothing at all to do with heat, 1000w of any energy source is the same as 1000w of another, you need to read up on physics. Read about the first law of thermodynamics and the law of conservation of energy.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 15, 2016)

HID is a high intensity incandescent. You're ridiculous if you think solid state is anywhere near as hot. I can put my finger within half an inch or less of my COBs and it feels warm at most. Solid state puts out very little heat, especially in comparison with HID.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> HID is a high intensity incandescent. You're ridiculous of you think solid state is anywhere neat as hot. I can put my finger within half an inch of my COBs and it feels warm at most.


You are down right stupid, touch has nothing to do with ambient heat and thermodynamics, please read up before you speak anymore. Furthermore HID stands for High Intensity Discharge....


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 15, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> You are down right stupid, touch has nothing to do with ambient heat and thermodynamics, please read up before you speak anymore.


Are you retarded? Where do you think the ambient heat comes from? Use a COB, then you can speak all the bullshit you want.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Are you retarded? Where do you think the ambient heat comes from? Use a COB, then you can speak all the bullshit you want.


I been using COBs longer than you been growing , please read up before you speak you just make yourself look uneducated and ignorant.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 15, 2016)

You are literally saying that "ambient heat" isn't palpable, that it has nothing to do with touch. You are making zero sense.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 15, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> You are literally saying that "ambient heat" isn't palpable, that it has nothing to do with touch. You are literally making zero sense.


Bro do you know anything about the laws of thermodynamics or are you once again talking about shit that is above you? Pains me to do this but you seem to have worked your way on to my ignore list now, thought we could get along but you are so uneducated and ignorant it isn't worth me even being bothered to explain more to you, go read up about Newtonian physics and the laws of thermodynamics or take a college course I think you got a lot to learn.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 15, 2016)

I know I don't need a cool tube for 1000w of COB. I also know that if I can put my finger that close to the source of light and supposed heat, that any other point at a distance from the point of origin will not be as hot. You are wrong about 1000w of COBs running anywhere near as hot as HIDs.

And to hell with your ignore list, put me there.


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## J. Killroy13 (Oct 15, 2016)

Guys I really appreciate all this knowledge and different points of view but I am looking for factual info on decreases of heat and electricity bill. I am running a 600 hps,,,,so I would replace with comparable LEDs? My questions are really wanting to know plant production, heating temp differences and money saved at the power bill. Anybody switched from a 600 hps have this info?


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## jimihendrix1 (Oct 16, 2016)

IMHO to come close to =ing your 600 watt HID you will need something like

KIND K5 1000 Watt LED Grow Light


G8LED 900 Watt MEGA LED Grow Light with Optimal 8-Band plus Infrared (IR) and Ultraviolet (UV) - 3 Watt Chips - All in One for Veg and Flower


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## maxamus1 (Oct 16, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> Guys I really appreciate all this knowledge and different points of view but I am looking for factual info on decreases of heat and electricity bill. I am running a 600 hps,,,,so I would replace with comparable LEDs? My questions are really wanting to know plant production, heating temp differences and money saved at the power bill. Anybody switched from a 600 hps have this info?


Unfortunately on here about this subject there is a lot of opinions with little help for those like us. I use a 400 w mh/hps and plan on switching over to LEDs asap. As far as I can tell the full spectrum whites are the way to go if you watch any utube check out growmau5 or greengenes channel they have a lot of info on leds, They are also on here or they were so maybe if you message them they might be able to help you out. Best of luck on your search.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 16, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> Guys I really appreciate all this knowledge and different points of view but I am looking for factual info on decreases of heat and electricity bill. I am running a 600 hps,,,,so I would replace with comparable LEDs? My questions are really wanting to know plant production, heating temp differences and money saved at the power bill. Anybody switched from a 600 hps have this info?


heres the thing. if you have a 600 watt hps and replace it with an actual 600 watt led, it would be practically identical heat and energy use wise. the advantage is that you don't need a 600 watt led to replace a 600 watt hps, a good led with the right spectrum that actually uses 300 watts will be just as effective as a 600 watt hps. so it uses half the electricity and produces half the heat, while producing only the wavelengths of light that you want.


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## Banana444 (Oct 16, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> PAR has nothing at all to do with heat, 1000w of any energy source is the same as 1000w of another, you need to read up on physics. Read about the first law of thermodynamics and the law of conservation of energy.


Your just plain wrong. Depending on what you put that 1000w into, will dictate what is produced. Saying 1000w put into any light source will create the same heat is wrong. I have a tad over 600w of leds in a 4x4, temps are 5 degrees above ambient temp and is 77, if i take all that down and put a 400w mh in there, it would be right about 85degrees. Why? Because hid is far less efficient at turning electricity into light and creates far more heat.


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## potpimp (Oct 16, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> Your just plain wrong. Depending on what you put that 1000w into, will dictate what is produced. Saying 1000w put into any light source will create the same heat is wrong. I have a tad over 600w of leds in a 4x4, temps are 5 degrees above ambient temp and is 77, if i take all that down and put a 400w mh in there, it would be right about 85degrees. Why? Because hid is far less efficient at turning electricity into light and creates far more heat.


I agree; heat is just one form of energy (since the amount of energy in the universe remains constant) and LED's and HID do convert electrical energy at diffent efficiencies, LED's converting much more of the energy into photons than heat, thus First Law and LoCoE is not violated.


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## J. Killroy13 (Oct 16, 2016)

This has been my first post and I have to say this has been so helpful. I love this site. It's like a therapist for my grow.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 16, 2016)

potpimp said:


> I agree; heat is just one form of energy (since the amount of energy in the universe remains constant) and LED's and HID do convert electrical energy at diffent efficiencies, LED's converting much more of the energy into photons than heat, thus First Law and LoCoE is not violated.


Thank you. This was my point.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 16, 2016)

i'd REALLY like to have two identical chambers, put a 1k hps in one, and an led that actually draws 1k in the other and see what happens. the laws of thermodynamics are immutable, it sure seems like if you're putting 1k in, its gonna come out somewhere....doesn't matter what it comes out as, energy in has to come out...somewhere.
i've always thought the advantage was that you can get the same effects from a smaller amount of electricity, so it runs cooler because it has less power going through it to begin with....?


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## Klause Flouride (Oct 17, 2016)

If the wattage is the same, electric consumption will be the same. 
Led's will give you the right spectrum of absorbable light the plant needs. With hid's, you are getting something like 15% usable spectrum and the rest is heat waste. So theoretically, and in practice, you can run less wattage in a led light and get the same results as hid. A good quality true 200w led will at least compete if not outperform a 400w hps.
I don't know about all this new cob stuff. I run a true180w led from 2010 with 1w diodes and get good results for personal grow.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 17, 2016)

thats actually amazing results from 1 watt diodes, looks as good as my panel with 5 watters does


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## VegasWinner (Oct 17, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> I am sure this has been covered before but I set my room up with a 600w hps. I have been thinking about getting an led to cut down on electricity and heat. My main concern is plant production. So to the vetters out there who have tried both, what are my realistic expectations?
> How to they really compare in plant productivity?
> How much can I honestly save in electricity?
> How much temp do they cut out?
> ...


I used to use a 600w HPS, still have it and a 1000w hps too. I found that 50w/sf for blooming and 25w/sf for vegging works similar to what you experienced with hps. Upi can build them, buy them or pay someone to build your COB lights, along withe some supplemental lighting such as Royal Blue for veg, Deep red and IR for bloom and far red for lights out 15 minutes. You can build or have built a light that exceeds any commercially built light, except for locally motivated light companies like PLC, Cutter, etc.For about $700 per 200w, 2x2 2-200w 2x4, etc. fixture is possible. peace


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## Klause Flouride (Oct 17, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> thats actually amazing results from 1 watt diodes, looks as good as my panel with 5 watters does


Thanks. I'm actually pretty proud of this girl. It's Lemon Kush Headband on week 7. I think 2 to 3 weeks to go. I had to tie her up last night because the outer branches are about to snap lol.


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## Cx2H (Oct 17, 2016)

Twilightbud said:


> View attachment 3805460


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 17, 2016)

kooltubes and t-5's ftw!!!!!


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## ThegrowerMOJO (Oct 17, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> Your just plain wrong. Depending on what you put that 1000w into, will dictate what is produced. Saying 1000w put into any light source will create the same heat is wrong. I have a tad over 600w of leds in a 4x4, temps are 5 degrees above ambient temp and is 77, if i take all that down and put a 400w mh in there, it would be right about 85degrees. Why? Because hid is far less efficient at turning electricity into light and creates far more heat.


yeah your correct on a few points,mainly the heat,i'm not an led hater by any means, even been researching heavily on it. but dollar for dollar the hps still big dog on the block. I will admit I am very impressed by the new cobs and what i see some others doing with them.I look forward to not having to run ac because of the lights. so hopefully the leds will prove their worth in the near future


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## platt (Oct 19, 2016)

interplanetary broadcasting


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## Abiqua (Oct 19, 2016)

a watt is a watt is a watt...

Now led's use different types of heat transfer, that might make them feel cooler, but a watt is a watt is a watt. 

PPF is certainly higher with some diodes, versus a point source bulb, but a watt is watt is a watt.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 19, 2016)

Abiqua said:


> a watt is a watt is a watt...
> 
> Now led's use different types of heat transfer, that might make them feel cooler, but a watt is a watt is a watt.
> 
> PPF is certainly higher with some diodes, versus a point source bulb, but a watt is watt is a watt.


exactly, leds just disappate the heat differently than hid lights, they get hot if they don't have a heatsink that's large enough or a heat sink and fan blowing across it to cool the heat sink, the heat is still made and broadcast to the surrounding area, 1000w of led will make the same heat as 1000w of hid. The main advantage to LEDs is you don't need to use as much watts to achieve the same results.


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## Abiqua (Oct 19, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> exactly, leds just disappate the heat differently than hid lights, they get hot if they don't have a heatsink that's large enough or a heat sink and fan blowing across it to cool the heat sink, the heat is still made and broadcast to the surrounding area, 1000w of led will make the same heat as 1000w of hid. The main advantage to LEDs is you don't need to use as much watts to achieve the same results.


Right if an HPS or bulb point source didn't put out so much IR,you could use less wattage, because that's basically what the LED's are doing. 

That streak of IR @850nm is a fucking doozy right onto the canopy.


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## platt (Oct 20, 2016)

pfffff.... once again the white guys saved ur arses.


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## Gquebed (Oct 20, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> Guys I really appreciate all this knowledge and different points of view but I am looking for factual info on decreases of heat and electricity bill. I am running a 600 hps,,,,so I would replace with comparable LEDs? My questions are really wanting to know plant production, heating temp differences and money saved at the power bill. Anybody switched from a 600 hps have this info?


I switched from 2000w of hid to 1300w of cob to cover the same area. So far my a/c has hardly gone off. I even thought i may have forgot to plug it in and had to check at first. Lol

So halved my light electricity and dropped a ton on the a/c too. 

Will see how cobs produce now...


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## jimihendrix1 (Oct 20, 2016)

Whats the Best Most Powerful LED made regardless of cost ? Also don't care how much heat it puts out... 10 watt Diodes ????

Only the Most Powerful/Penetrating, and does it as well, or better as the Gavita 1000.

I also don't care about the heat of the Gavita as I can easily deal with any heat.

That's why I ask whats the Most Powerful/Penetrating LED Regardless of heat/cost ect.


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## HandyGringo (Oct 20, 2016)

LED is better than HPS for most situations.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 20, 2016)

jimihendrix1 said:


> Whats the Best Most Powerful LED made regardless of cost ? Also don't care how much heat it puts out... 10 watt Diodes ????
> 
> Only the Most Powerful/Penetrating, and does it as well, or better as the Gavita 1000.
> 
> ...


Most likely CXB3590's from cree are the best , watt for watt.

https://cobkits.com/product/cree-cxb3590-36v/

I like these a lot too for the price and quality/performance

https://cobkits.com/product/citizen-clu058-1825-90cri/


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 20, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Most likely CXB3590's from cree are the best , watt for watt.
> 
> https://cobkits.com/product/cree-cxb3590-36v/
> 
> ...



i agree, with good meanwell drivers, big heatsinks and fans you can't go wrong


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 20, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> i agree, with good meanwell drivers, big heatsinks and fans you can't go wrong


@Rahz

http://www.tastyled.com/



Although, he recently switched his T1-2100 option out for his new T1-V196 which uses a 1650mA driver but puts out like, 20 more PPF and 3 more PAR watts. Uses a Vero 26C 90CRI 3500k emitter.

I prefer Cree, but maybe I'm just being a fanboy.


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## tstick (Oct 20, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> I am sure this has been covered before but I set my room up with a 600w hps. I have been thinking about getting an led to cut down on electricity and heat. My main concern is plant production. So to the vetters out there who have tried both, what are my realistic expectations?
> How to they really compare in plant productivity?
> How much can I honestly save in electricity?
> How much temp do they cut out?
> ...



One thing to keep in mind is what your ambient climate is at the time you do your grow(s). I prefer to grow during the colder months so that the various "bugs" in the air are at a minimum. And I currently grow using a Timber Grow Light...the CXB 400R (available on custom order only). It's a very powerful light, but it generates very little heat. So, I find myself supplementing that "lost" heat with a space heater. So, basically, it's another "robbing Peter to pay Paul" scenario. The efficiency of the light and the electrical savings and all that are then cancelled out by the added space heater! It's kind of the reverse situation that most HID growers face when they have to add AC to their grow spaces from all the heat the HID bulbs generate.

One thing to consider, then, might be _how and when you grow_. Ideally, you would try to find the naturally-perfect ambient temperature for the plants and then consistently maintain that temperature without having to amend it with heating or cooling apparatus.

I have been looking at those LEC 315 fixtures for just this reason. I might try one and see if the natural heat it creates would be sufficient to maintain ideal daytime temperatures during the colder months without having to run a heater. Of course, I would still have to run the heater in the room at night.


Also consider HOW you will grow...An HID light might solve your daytime heating issue, but, IF the tops of the plants get too close to the light, then the proximity to the heat can cook your best colas to a crisp! You might have to do a scrog to keep the plants low enough to allow plenty of space between the tops of the plants and the hot bulb. If you prefer to grow trees, then the cool LED with an added space heater in the room combo might be a better approach....and so on.

For the most efficient producer of photons, COB-based LED lights (Cree CXB 3590 COBs, specifically) are the best....at least according to all the arguments around here! LOL!  But you may want to consider some of these other things.

I've also been coveting the Apache Tech AT600 for some time...hoping the price will go down so I can afford one! I like all kinds of lights, I guess! Lights are starting to become another addiction now! Beware! You might end up with "one of each" light out there.....like I'm heading towards!


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 20, 2016)

So this is one of my plants currently just barely three full weeks old and still in veg. You can clearly see the fan leaf is covered in capitate-sessile trichomes, some of which are appearing to amber already. This should prove to you, the quality of Tasty's COB builds (The two I use are his T1-2100s using Cree CXB3590s, 3500k, 80CRI, 36v, run at 2150mA each by two separate Meanwell LPF-90D-42 drivers; these Cree-based models were just recently replaced by his T1-V196 Vero 29C 3500k 90CRI-based models run at 1650mA)


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## Lordhooha (Oct 20, 2016)

jimihendrix1 said:


> IMHO to come close to =ing your 600 watt HID you will need something like
> 
> KIND K5 1000 Watt LED Grow Light
> 
> ...


Not true I own two of kinds xl1000's it's a great light but cobs beat it. I'm running my xl1000's now while I rework my cob lights


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 20, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> How can 1000w LED produce the same amount of heat as a 1000w heater if the light given off from the 1000w LED is converted into plant growth and not heat? You said in another post energy is never lost, just converted, ...so theoretically speaking if a 1000w LED were 60% efficient you would have 600w of light of which say maybe half/300w was actually being used for plant growth, wouldn't that 1000w LED only be putting off 700w of heat since 300w was converted into plant growth and not heat?


hmmm..of course the same thing is true for hid, just to a lesser extent since they are less efficient in producing usable light.......i think....


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 20, 2016)

HID is less efficient than LED. Much of its wattage is wasted, as the energy is converted to heat rather than photons, because HIDs are decades-old high powered incandescent technology, whereas LEDs are newer solid state technology, with much better efficiency, and most if not all of its energy is used to produce photons rather than heat. Heat sink and fan or not, I don't have to enclose the chip in a cool tube like I would an HPS, the bare chip can be left uncovered with an Angelina reflector for better light concentration. So you don't have to tack more energy expenditure onto your bill for cooling, nor do you have to worry about snow melting on your rooftop, blowing your cover. I can put my finger about half an inch from the surface of the emitter without burning myself. Also, it produces so much light, I can blind myself simply by reflecting the light off my palm. Finally, I can get the PPFD of about a 400-600w HPS in a smaller area using only 89w.

Does anyone know if HIDs typically produce trichomes on vegging plants? Because my COBs do.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 20, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Does anyone know if HIDs typically produce trichomes on vegging plants? Because my COBs do.


Probably not, your lights are the best. All others are shit. Show us a bunch of dried buds from your awesome lights so we can see your greatness!!!!


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 20, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Probably not, your lights are the best. All others are shit. Show us a bunch of dried buds from your awesome lights so we can see your greatness!!!!


No dried buds yet, but here are the trichomes, which the plants have been producing since day 3 in seedling:

       

It's pretty amazing. 3 weeks old, still in veg, and you can clearly see capitate-sessile trichomes.


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## Dankistino (Oct 20, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> So this is one of my plants currently just barely three full weeks old and still in veg. You can clearly see the fan leaf is covered in capitate-sessile trichomes, some of which are appearing to amber already. This should prove to you, the quality of Tasty's COB builds (The two I use are his T1-2100s using Cree CXB3590s, 3500k, 80CRI, 36v, run at 2150mA each by two separate Meanwell LPF-90D-42 drivers; these Cree-based models were just recently replaced by his T1-V196 Vero 29C 3500k 90CRI-based models run at 1650mA)
> 
> View attachment 3810023 View attachment 3810024


Why do you think that the early trichomes are indicative of effective lighting? I know Leprechaun says same. 

Dot to dismiss frosty buds, of course we all love ice. But to keep it real we know icy buds are not necessarily potent buds.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 20, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Why do you think that the early trichomes are indicative of effective lighting? I know Leprechaun says same.
> 
> Dot to dismiss frosty buds, of course we all love ice. But to keep it real we know icy buds are not necessarily potent buds.


..How do you figure that? Trichomes = resin glands. Resin glands produce THC. So how, exactly, do more trichomes not translate to more potency?

And it's between the light and the strain. If the light is optimal, these early trichomes will be produced. The plant produces trichomes not only in defense of itself, but in response to optimally bright light, I believe I've heard as a sort of sunscreen.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 20, 2016)

Do you know what hash and hash oil such as shatter are made of? They're made of trichomes. Are you saying hash or shatter aren't more potent than flower?


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## Dankistino (Oct 20, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Do you know what hash and hash oil such as shatter are made of? They're made of trichomes. Are you saying hash or shatter aren't more potent than flower?


Ya thats a good question. Im not saying that tri's arent desirable. Just an observation from plants ive grown is that it's not unusual for an average looking bud to be a mind blower or a frosty bud to be so-so.

Sometimes two equally frosted buds have very different potencies. Does that mean that some of the trichomes were more filled? Or maybe the specific combo of all the psychoactive materials in the bud had a multiplier effect? I'm curious.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 21, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Ya thats a good question. Im not saying that tri's arent desirable. Just an observation from plants ive grown is that it's not unusual for an average looking bud to be a mind blower or a frosty bud to be so-so.


To be fair, I'm sure it all depends on a plethora of factors, some of which are subjective. So, I can easily agree with what you're saying.


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## Dankistino (Oct 21, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> To be fair, I'm sure it all depends on a plethora of factors, some of which are subjective. So, I can easily agree with what you're saying.


total agreement. I'm gonna scope out my sprouts more closely next time. I'm wondering how their baby leaf surfaces develop under my light. (cob)


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 21, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> total agreement. I'm gonna scope out my sprouts more closely next time. I'm wondering how their baby leaf surfaces develop under my light. (cob)


. What emitters and drivers, and at what voltage and amperage are you running your setup, out of curiosity? I use two Tasty T1-2100s. They consist of 1 CXB3590 36v 3500k 80CRI and 1 Meanwell LPF-90D-42 driven at 2150mA each. It may be less efficient to drive them at higher amperages, but at 89w each, I'm not too concerned about efficiency. These two builds cover my small closet pretty well. I'm just a simple closet med grower. With this setup, I'm only doing two medium-large mainlined plants at a time. I have a collective grow at another location, where I have my 2 ViparSpectra V450s alongside my partner's 5-6 year old BlackStar 500s for flowering 4 large mainlined plants at a time. In our veg/clone closet, we use 2x 240w BlackStar veg panels. We have only about 14 plants total.


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## Yodaweed (Oct 21, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> How can 1000w LED produce the same amount of heat as a 1000w heater if the light given off from the 1000w LED is converted into plant growth and not heat? You said in another post energy is never lost, just converted, ...so theoretically speaking if a 1000w LED were 60% efficient you would have 600w of light of which say maybe half/300w was actually being used for plant growth, wouldn't that 1000w LED only be putting off 700w of heat since 300w was converted into plant growth and not heat?


Because the amount of joules of energy is the same in all those applications, the only reason LEDs run cooler is because you use less wattage of them and they dissipate the heat so they aren't as hot to the touch, but they still raise temps in an enclosed grow room the same amount as any other light would of equal wattage. Efficiency has to do with useable light(PAR) not heat. 1000w of 40% efficiency is the same heat as 1000w of 1% efficiency just much less usable light but the heat out put would be the same in an enclosed area. This is the main reason we can calculate BTU of ANY light source using a simple equation.

http://rapidtables.com/convert/power/Watt_to_BTU.htm

And you can calculate the amount of energy by converting BTU to joules , 1 BTU = approx. 1,055 joules of energy / per hour.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 21, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> Because the amount of joules of energy is the same in all those applications, the only reason LEDs run cooler is because you use less wattage of them and they dissipate the heat so they aren't as hot to the touch, but they still raise temps in an enclosed grow room the same amount as any other light would of equal wattage. Efficiency has to do with useable light(PAR) not heat. 1000w of 40% efficiency is the same heat as 1000w of 1% efficiency just much less usable light but the heat out put would be the same in an enclosed area. This is the main reason we can calculate BTU of ANY light source using a simple equation.
> 
> http://rapidtables.com/convert/power/Watt_to_BTU.htm
> 
> And you can calculate the amount of energy by converting BTU to joules , 1 BTU = approx. 1,055 joules of energy / per hour.


thats what was escaping me, thnx


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 21, 2016)

Joules of energy are wasted on unusable light and heat with HIDs.
I don't really understand how efficiency doesn't involve heat. Joule is a unit of energy. Heat is a form of converted energy. So is unusable light. So how, exactly, does efficiency have nothing to do with heat as well as light?


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## Yodaweed (Oct 21, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Joules of energy are wasted on unusable light and heat with HIDs.
> I don't really understand how efficiency doesn't involve heat. Joule is a unit of energy. Heat is a form of converted energy. So is unusable light. So how, exactly, does efficiency have nothing to do with heat as well as light?


Light is just another form of heat, if you put your hand in the sun does it not heat up? It does heat up , and the reason why is because electrons are excited in light, (they vibrate) which causes heat, it's the same exact thing that causes fire to start. If you don't believe the facts I just said read this scientific publication.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-exactly-does-light-tr/


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## Nugachino (Oct 21, 2016)

You can't compare a heater with a light. A heater is designed to throw out heat and not light. The light is the opposite. They're geared differently.

Yes a 1000w light does output a fair bit of heat. But, it's main job is to produce light. Not heat.

Same with the heater. It's job is to heat an area. And despite that. You'd still notice a little bit of light coming from the element at high enough settings.


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## Gquebed (Oct 23, 2016)

Light 
Heat
Rock
Grass
Glass 


It is all the same. It is energy in different forms. 

A rock is energy in storage. Light is energy on the move. Heat is the same in a different form. A plant turns light into sugar...it uses and produces energy.


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## ganjafather27 (Oct 23, 2016)

OP - People who use certain lights are always going to argue for their way.

From what I've found, LEDs are the way of the future, for sure. But right now, at this moment, if you want to replace a 600w HID with LED and get on par results, you're gonna be spending about a 800$ per light. COBs are the way to go, and you can save maybe $150-$100 per light by going DIY.

Chinese LEDs are cheap and they usually use crappy quality diodes that aren't optimal for plant growth which is why they don't grow marijuana very well. People get deficiencies, get UV burn, all sorts of problems with these cheap, discount, chinese panels. Don't waste your time with these as your main lighting. They surely can be useful as supplemental lighting, though.

LEDs are awesome, they are WAY more efficient. Newer kits have been coming out that make your lighting more... "controllable" (being able to control the amount of reds, blues, uv, etc. There are models that can even change the amounts of blues and reds by the hour, throughout the whole day to replicate the sun from rise to set.) 

It's really no argument that LEDs are better, no grower in their right mind would choose to grow HID over LED if they were being given the equipment for free. That brings up the one real downside, price.

IF you want the right LEDs with powerful diodes, the right color temps, the right UV, you have to pay for it. If it costs $350 to set up a good 600w MH/HPS light, it's hard to justify spending $800 on an LED set up that is on par with your HID. Yes, they are more efficient, yes they will save you money in energy, yes they keep your grow room a little cooler, but it's gonna take 5 years before the price justifies itself.

Myself, I'm sticking with HID while using supplemental LEDs. I love LEDs, but the right technology just isn't affordable for me at this moment. When panels that can compete with my 600w HIDs drop below $600, ill start making the switch. It's gonna be a few more years though.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 23, 2016)

my problem exactly, i would be full cobs right now...if they didn't cost at least 2-3 times what the hid alternative costs


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 23, 2016)

Nugachino said:


> You can't compare a heater with a light. A heater is designed to throw out heat and not light. The light is the opposite. They're geared differently.
> 
> Yes a 1000w light does output a fair bit of heat. But, it's main job is to produce light. Not heat.
> 
> Same with the heater. It's job is to heat an area. And despite that. You'd still notice a little bit of light coming from the element at high enough settings.


You clearly don't get my point. The point is, it is wasting energy outside the PAR range, and definitely much on heat. My point is, it wastes energy on unusable transferred energy. Like, I can tell in your response, you completely missed the point.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 23, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> my problem exactly, i would be full cobs right now...if they didn't cost at least 2-3 times what the hid alternative costs


They save you money in the long run. 89w for the power of a 400w-600w HPS (PPFD being the measurementi) in a 2x2 for each one.


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## thenotsoesoteric (Oct 23, 2016)

Some of that shitty hps bud, no cri... lol


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 23, 2016)

thenotsoesoteric said:


> Some of that shitty hps bud, no cri... lolView attachment 3812536 View attachment 3812538 View attachment 3812539


80 CRI. And, you really should investigate COBs.


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## Gquebed (Oct 23, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Do you know what hash and hash oil such as shatter are made of? They're made of trichomes. Are you saying hash or shatter aren't more potent than flower?


No they arent more potent. The trichs have the ingredients that give the high. However potent they are is exactly how potent hash and oil and shatter and all the concentrates are. Concentrates are just more concentrated than flower and will hit harder initially thats all.


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## Dankistino (Oct 23, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> my problem exactly, i would be full cobs right now...if they didn't cost at least 2-3 times what the hid alternative costs


it sort of makes sense but isnt it kind of like the person that pays fare for each trip because they cant afford the trans pass?


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## Gquebed (Oct 23, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> ..How do you figure that? Trichomes = resin glands. Resin glands produce THC. So how, exactly, do more trichomes not translate to more potency?
> 
> And it's between the light and the strain. If the light is optimal, these early trichomes will be produced. The plant produces trichomes not only in defense of itself, but in response to optimally bright light, I believe I've heard as a sort of sunscreen.


2 Beer at 5% alcohol is not 10% alcohol. Its not more potent than one beer. They are the same potency. 5% each. 2 will get you a better buzz than one but volume is not potency.


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## Dankistino (Oct 23, 2016)

thenotsoesoteric said:


> Some of that shitty hps bud, no cri... lolView attachment 3812536 View attachment 3812538 View attachment 3812539


investigate cobs for sure


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## Dankistino (Oct 23, 2016)

Gquebed said:


> 2 Beer at 5% alcohol is not 10% alcohol. Its not more potent than one beer. They are the same potency. 5% each. 2 will get you a better buzz than one but volume is not potency.


ya it seems like what you are saying makes sense. But is actually that some plants produce trichomes with a higher thc % or more compounds containing thc? I dont think ive ever hear it discussed whether some trichomes are 25%thc trichomes and some 15%thc. If all are created equal then frostiest would be most potent. Could the terpene profile make a 15% thc value plant seem way more dank that a 25%?


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 23, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> it sort of makes sense but isnt it kind of like the person that pays fare for each trip because they cant afford the trans pass?


yeah, just gotta earn enough to buy the pass, have to pay daily till then, which makes it take longer, but the day is still coming


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## Gquebed (Oct 23, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> ya it seems like what you are saying makes sense. But is actually that some plants produce trichomes with a higher thc % or more compounds containing thc? I dont think ive ever hear it discussed whether some trichomes are 25%thc trichomes and some 15%thc. If all are created equal then frostiest would be most potent. Could the terpene profile make a 15% thc value plant seem way more dank that a 25%?


Hmmm... good question. I would think not though. But maybe i am underestimating the effect of terpenes...

As for the potency of the trichs on one plant...it does not change. They are all the same. And no... more trichs does not mean more potency. 5 beers at 5% will get you a good buzz. 25 of the same beers will likely make you pass out. That isnt a measure of potency. That is a measure of volume. 

And think of this... smoke a whole joint to yourself and get wasted. Smoke two and do you get higher? No. We tend to top out at a certain point, which is why nobody ever ods on weed.


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## Dankistino (Oct 23, 2016)

How would you explain the potency of trichs on different plants?
More thc in the trich?
The thc in the trich is more pure?


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## Gquebed (Oct 23, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> How would you explain the potency of trichs on different plants?
> More thc in the trich?
> The thc in the trich is more pure?


That is beyond me. It is sort of like asking why some women have more estrogen than others... or why some apples are sweeter than others. It is genetics. If you answer the question: what purpose does thc serve to the plant? ... then you might be on the right track to an answer.

If i were to guess... since the resin (trichs) serve to protect the reproductive system (buds) of the female plant from UV light then maybe the level of thc in the trichs is related to how susceptable or prone the plant is to UV light? I dunno...just a guess...


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## Yodaweed (Oct 23, 2016)

http://www.krdo.com/news/local-news/city-council-approves-new-rules-for-indoor-home-grows-/73402668


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## thenotsoesoteric (Oct 23, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> investigate cobs for sure


I've done ton s reading, I've yet to build my own cob rig but will at some point. I just find it funny when people say you can't grow grade A weed with hps, that's all. Cheers


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## Dankistino (Oct 23, 2016)

thenotsoesoteric said:


> I've done ton s reading, I've yet to build my own cob rig but will at some point. I just find it funny when people say you can't grow grade A weed with hps, that's all. Cheers


Gotcha. I def don't think that. I believe led gives an advantage but hps has grown superb bud for decades.


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## a mongo frog (Oct 23, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Gotcha. I def don't think that. I believe led gives an advantage but hps has grown superb bud for decades.


An advantage to growing grade A buds?


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## Dankistino (Oct 24, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> An advantage to growing grade A buds?


Yes


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## a mongo frog (Oct 24, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Yes


Can you show us what you speak of? Thanks.


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## TacoMac (Oct 24, 2016)

thenotsoesoteric said:


> I've done ton s reading, I've yet to build my own cob rig but will at some point. I just find it funny when people say you can't grow grade A weed with hps, that's all. Cheers


Well, they dropped a ton of money on their COBs so they are naturally better, right? Because if they're not, then they look like idiots for spending 10 times the money to get the same end product.

That's the way of people: they bought it, so it's the best. Frankly, I've seen and sampled quite a few grows from more than a few different people over this.

I've not found one single bit of difference.

It's sort of like racing a Yamaha R1 against the Honda 1000RR - they'll both argue about having the better bike. They'll both show you stats, measurements, and all manner of useless data to argue their cases.

But in the end, if you ride the R1 around the track, then you ride the Honda around the track, you're personally not going to notice a bit of difference. They both get you to the same place at the same speed relative to you.


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## HydoDan (Oct 24, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> Well, they dropped a ton of money on their COBs so they are naturally better, right? Because if they're not, then they look like idiots for spending 10 times the money to get the same end product..


So you run $60 lights?. Just because I have $600 to spend on a light to keep my temps down and my wife from bitchin about the electric bill... Doesn't make me an idiot!!! It makes me a lot smarter than you'll ever be! Don't fault ppl for what they have.. it makes you look cheap and petty....


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## jeepster1993 (Oct 24, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> http://www.krdo.com/news/local-news/city-council-approves-new-rules-for-indoor-home-grows-/73402668


Ft Collins Colorado also requires "low power lighting".

The part about the fire inspector having the right to inspect your house if you grow...
Just reinforces the FIRST RULE OF GROWING: tell no one.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

Gquebed said:


> 2 Beer at 5% alcohol is not 10% alcohol. Its not more potent than one beer. They are the same potency. 5% each. 2 will get you a better buzz than one but volume is not potency.


How about breeder specs of about 20% THC?


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## Dankistino (Oct 24, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> Well, they dropped a ton of money on their COBs so they are naturally better, right? Because if they're not, then they look like idiots for spending 10 times the money to get the same end product.
> 
> That's the way of people: they bought it, so it's the best. Frankly, I've seen and sampled quite a few grows from more than a few different people over this.
> 
> ...


Let's start with calling people "idiots" "spending 10x the money". You embarrass yourself. Led growers are not idiots. Nor does it cost 10x as much. Just for speaking like that you should refrain from even offering an opinion.

it's nothing like racing different RR litre bikes. Your analogy is a failure, like your thinking. Those bikes cost about the same and they use nearly identical technology. Difference in outcomes at the track will be nearly exclusively based on pilot skill level. Did you suffer a head injury at the track resulting in drooling ineptitude? I'll guarantee you're not one of the fast guys at the track. Anyone who knows bikes, watches races knows that there is barely any difference.

I'm not into offering a remedial 8th grade physics class. Do your own research. There is no debate about brightness, spectrum, and efficiency between hid vs led. Pitting an hid against a led is more like bringing one of those old 500 cc 2 stroke to the current 1000cc grid.

Keep your helmet on before you hurt yourself again.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

jeepster1993 said:


> Ft Collins Colorado also requires "low power lighting".
> 
> The part about the fire inspector having the right to inspect your house if you grow...
> Just reinforces the FIRST RULE OF GROWING: tell no one.


Good thing COB is such a low-powered, high-output, non hazardous light source in comparison to HIDs.


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## Dankistino (Oct 24, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Can you show us what you speak of? Thanks.


I get the feeling that it's your habit to tirelessly ask this question in numb amusement

You know precisely what i speak of. LED is brighter, it's cooler, it can be configured to optimize a grow, it's more efficient and it has a better spectrum. I'm not arguing that LED is the answer to all growers prayers. I am stating that HID is a dinosaur with many shortcomings and it is coming to the end of it's utility as a horticultural light.


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 24, 2016)

HPS, ran it for 20 years, MH, ran it with hps even better than hps alone. COB, i want to try but havnt gone there i like the things i hear about cree cxb 3070 and 3590's...im afraid the day i buy one a month later they will drop in price,,main concern..

switched over to CDL, LIGHTING also called cmh, the 315 watt lamps are equivilant to 450-500 watts hps or maybe even 600 watts.. ive only been running cmh for a little over a year..each run gpw is up,,im getting 1.68 gpw now,,i hope to get 2 gpw but its a work in progress..the day i switched from hps,mh to cmh yields wer up went from best runs hps getting1.2 gpw to getting 1.4-1.5 gpw with my first run using ceramics... i love the ceramic,,no bulb changes and i run the 3100k bulb in both veg and bloom rooms.. tighter nodes,bigger buds,better crystalization, and plants finish a week sooner under cmh spectrum....i plan to try led,,, but i must say im very happy with the cdl's or cmh wright now...maybe when the price comes down on those cree cobs or if i could find someone to do a diy build for me... if your on the fence between LED, and HPS,,,,BUY A CDL,,YOULL BE IMPRESSED!~!!!


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> HPS, ran it for 20 years, MH, ran it with hps even better than hps alone. COB, i want to try but havnt gone there i like the things i hear about cree cxb 3070 and 3590's...im afraid the day i buy one a month later they will drop in price,,main concern..
> 
> switched over to CDL, LIGHTING also called cmh, the 315 watt lamps are equivilant to 450-500 watts hps or maybe even 600 watts.. ive only been running cmh for a little over a year..each run gpw is up,,im getting 1.68 gpw now,,i hope to get 2 gpw but its a work in progress..the day i switched from hps,mh to cmh yields wer up went from best runs hps getting1.2 gpw to getting 1.4-1.5 gpw with my first run using ceramics... i love the ceramic,,no bulb changes and i run the 3100k bulb in both veg and bloom rooms.. tighter nodes,bigger buds,better crystalization, and plants finish a week sooner under cmh spectrum....i plan to try led,,, but i must say im very happy with the cdl's or cmh wright now...maybe when the price comes down on those cree cobs or if i could find someone to do a diy build for me... if your on the fence between LED, and HPS,,,,BUY A CDL,,YOULL BE IMPRESSED!~!!!


I appreciate your objectivity, at the very least, for what my opinion is worth.


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## Gquebed (Oct 24, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> How about breeder specs of about 20% THC?


I dont understand what youre asking or saying???


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

Gquebed said:


> I dont understand what youre asking or saying???


Then I've no reason to continue talking with you about it. If my plant's pushing cloudy trichomes on fan leaves in veg, and breeder specs state 20% THC, we aren't talking low THC, therefore your beer analogy is useless.


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## TacoMac (Oct 24, 2016)

You can always tell when you're spot on in what you say when people come out of the woodwork getting all defensive and hurling accusations and innuendo around.

Just proves my point to perfection.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

Here are those trichomes today.

HSO Lemon Garlic OG:
   

RG#357 (CTF):


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## Gquebed (Oct 24, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Then I've no reason to continue talking with you about it. If my plant's pushing cloudy trichomes on fan leaves in veg, and breeder specs state 20% THC, we aren't talking low THC, therefore your beer analogy is useless.


Not at all. I could use whiskey then at 40% for the analogy.

And if you truly understood my analogy you would understand that the percentage doesnt matter. Call it "x" if you like.

But im done wasting my time. It is clear you dont want to understand.

Hopefully Darwin will get to you soon...and make it painless for you.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

Gquebed said:


> Not at all. I could use whiskey then at 40% for the analogy.
> 
> And if you truly understood my analogy you would understand that the percentage doesnt matter. Call it "x" if you like.
> 
> ...


Last person that tried to kill me is dead, so don't hold your breath. I suspect you'll earn yourself a Darwin Award before I do.


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## Dankistino (Oct 24, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> You can always tell when you're spot on in what you say when people come out of the woodwork getting all defensive and hurling accusations and innuendo around.
> 
> Just proves my point to perfection.


Taco gets his feeling hurt.


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## HydoDan (Oct 24, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Taco gets his feeling hurt. View attachment 3813127


He's just pissed cuz he can't afford cobs.. $60 lights only!! 1/10 the cost.. talk facts instead of opinionated
Bullshit...


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## a mongo frog (Oct 24, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> I am stating that HID is a dinosaur with many shortcomings and it is coming to the end of it's utility as a horticultural light.


HID is the # 1 horticulture lighting sold world wide. Im not doubting LED at all. Ive seen all the bud pics but yours. They are the same as hid. Some are better then others, depends on the gardener.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> HID is the # 1 horticulture lighting sold world wide. Im not doubting LED at all. Ive seen all the bud pics but yours. They are the same as hid. Some are better then others, depends on the gardener.


That's because it's been the staple for decades. Lighting has changed, as it's expected to continue to do.


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## freemanjack (Oct 24, 2016)

Gquebed said:


> That is beyond me. It is sort of like asking why some women have more estrogen than others... or why some apples are sweeter than others. It is genetics. If you answer the question: what purpose does thc serve to the plant? ... then you might be on the right track to an answer.
> 
> If i were to guess... since the resin (trichs) serve to protect the reproductive system (buds) of the female plant from UV light then maybe the level of thc in the trichs is related to how susceptable or prone the plant is to UV light? I dunno...just a guess...


Personally, I'm beginning to suspect weed is actually carnivorous and the primary role of producing copious amounts of fairly strongly acidic sticky goo, in any other plant, is solely to catch and digest bugs to augment meagre soil nutrients. (Google; sundew) anyone ever found a whole dead bug in their bud? had plenty of skeletal husks but never a whole body.


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## TacoMac (Oct 24, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Taco gets his feeling hurt. View attachment 3813127





HydoDan said:


> He's just pissed cuz he can't afford cobs.. $60 lights only!! 1/10 the cost.. talk facts instead of opinionated
> Bullshit...


I love how two alt accounts run by the same person typing in the same moronic, uneducated, childish fashion try to pass it off as two different people agreeing to the same lame point that is in fact not even remotely accurate.

Once again proving me 100% correct.


----------



## HydoDan (Oct 24, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> I love how two alt accounts run by the same person typing in the same moronic, uneducated, childish fashion try to pass it off as two different people agreeing to the same lame point that is in fact not even remotely accurate.
> 
> Once again proving me 100% correct.


Give it a break.. your ignorance is showing! Sad very sad!


----------



## Dankistino (Oct 24, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> I love how two alt accounts run by the same person typing in the same moronic, uneducated, childish fashion try to pass it off as two different people agreeing to the same lame point that is in fact not even remotely accurate.
> Once again proving me 100% correct.


Big league comment.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 24, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> I love how two alt accounts run by the same person typing in the same moronic, uneducated, childish fashion try to pass it off as two different people agreeing to the same lame point that is in fact not even remotely accurate.
> 
> Once again proving me 100% correct.


Sounds like a pretty uneducated response. The site has an algorithm to prevent or eliminate socks/alts, or something like that. I've had a conversation with Sunni about this. They aren't alts, and your response was pretty immature and lowbrow, not in any way productive.


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## Dankistino (Oct 24, 2016)

freemanjack said:


> Personally, I'm beginning to suspect weed is actually carnivorous and the primary role of producing copious amounts of fairly strongly acidic sticky goo, in any other plant, is solely to catch and digest bugs to augment meagre soil nutrients. (Google; sundew) anyone ever found a whole dead bug in their bud? had plenty of skeletal husks but never a whole body.


Pic?


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## thenotsoesoteric (Oct 24, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> Well, they dropped a ton of money on their COBs so they are naturally better, right? Because if they're not, then they look like idiots for spending 10 times the money to get the same end product.
> 
> That's the way of people: they bought it, so it's the best. Frankly, I've seen and sampled quite a few grows from more than a few different people over this.
> 
> ...


I like the r1 vs honda comparison. Sadly most won't get it. Cheers


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## thenotsoesoteric (Oct 24, 2016)

Take the best grown hps, mh, c.o.b., led, cmh or outdoor/greenhouse buds and have the average tokers smoke some of each and guarantee no single light source will win overwhelmingly. Just won't happen.

Growing good herb is not a matter of buying the newest latest gadget/technology. It's like those guys who buy 3-5 thousand dollar guitars but still get shown up by the kid with a beat up Squire stratocaster and shitty solid state amp. You can buy a Ferrari but that doesn't mean you're going to win in a race against that subaru.


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## TacoMac (Oct 25, 2016)

thenotsoesoteric said:


> Take the best grown hps, mh, c.o.b., led, cmh or outdoor/greenhouse buds and have the average tokers smoke some of each and guarantee no single light source will win overwhelmingly. Just won't happen.


Exactly. And I've done exactly that. There is no discernible difference at all. But that doesn't stop the whole "COB crowd" from bowing up in the chest and insulting everybody hand over fist because they spent a ton of money on them.

Simple fact is: They make no difference at all.

The real promise of COB lighting is probably 10 years away. I'm thinking by then, they're going to be increasing the efficiency of LED's a good bit. I'm thinking that the power savings in the futrure is going to be closer to the 40% mark, and that along with lower cost as they go more main stream, will be the end of HPS / MH.


----------



## freemanjack (Oct 25, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Pic?


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sundew&safe=off&hl=en&biw=1365&bih=828&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTm4aT2vXPAhXDJcAKHfyyATMQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.75
lots of pics!!!


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> Exactly. And I've done exactly that. There is no discernible difference at all. But that doesn't stop the whole "COB crowd" from bowing up in the chest and insulting everybody hand over fist because they spent a ton of money on them.
> 
> Simple fact is: They make no difference at all.
> 
> The real promise of COB lighting is probably 10 years away. I'm thinking by then, they're going to be increasing the efficiency of LED's a good bit. I'm thinking that the power savings in the futrure is going to be closer to the 40% mark, and that along with lower cost as they go more main stream, will be the end of HPS / MH.


It's not 10 years away, it's already here. And no one is bowing at the chest except those of the HID crowd who says it isn't. COB was, as I've stated, invented to replace HID in high bay/low bay industrial applications. Unlike HID, most of their wattage is used on light, not wasted on heat, and with optimization, its spectrum is easily more ideal for growing than HID, making more of its light usable in comparison to HID. While HID is incandescent, COB is solid state.

For the record, I don't give a fuck about money. I get paid a pension the rest of my life. So you're definitely wrong about me caring about what I spent. I owned two "450w LED panels" before my COBs. No comparison between LED panels and COBs. One of my 89w COBs smokes both of my ViparSpectra V450s that draw 206w each.

10 years away.. A lot of hot air coming from someone who has no experience with COBs at all. If you did, you probably wouldn't say such stupid things; it just proves your inexperience with them and that you are the one bowing your chest out while you cling to the sinking ship that HIDs have become.


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## freemanjack (Oct 25, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> It's not 10 years away, it's already here. And no one is bowing at the chest except those of the HID crowd who says it isn't. COB was, as I've stated, invented to replace HID in high bay/low bay industrial applications. Unlike HID, most of their wattage is used on light, not wasted on heat, and with optimization, its spectrum is easily more ideal for growing than HID, making more of its light usable in comparison to HID. While HID is incandescent, COB is solid state.
> 
> For the record, I don't give a fuck about money. I get paid a pension the rest of my life. So you're definitely wrong about me caring about what I spent. I owned two "450w LED panels" before my COBs. No comparison between LED panels and COBs. One of my 89w COBs smokes both of my ViparSpectra V450s that draw 206w each.


Pretty much our experience precisely, long time hps user, looked into m/h, was given a mono red/blue spider cob type light, most part of useless, awful plant health and vigor, converted it to white cob's and its incredible now, all white cob now and starting to garner some interest from our local big grow boys in our tech.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

Why can't you guys just let folks grow with what works for them? I mean are you really so fucken anal that you'd sit in a weedsite constantly beating a dead horse to what end? If folks can run hid's and do well i support them, If folks wanna try to be part of the New tech wave and have great results wonderful......Some of you sound like a used car saleman trying to convince a buyer he knows what he is talking about....until you bring said car home and the thing isnt as advertised....welcome to MERIKA! 

Just an fyi, My brother and i spent thousands of dollars trying these Cob flowers grown in colorado,washington, and arizona, i did NOT see,taste, or notice a diff that id go out and swap my equipment for! If you can grab decent genetics, know how to grow and keep your plants happy(cannabis aint known for being difficult to grow), then have curing down to a decent level your lighting should be the last of your worries with today's options man. Shit 800-1000 watts of t-5's put out PHENOMANOL flowers!


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

freemanjack said:


> Pretty much our experience precisely, long time hps user, looked into m/h, was given a mono red/blue spider cob type light, most part of useless, awful plant health and vigor, converted it to white cob's and its incredible now, all white cob now and starting to garner some interest from our local big grow boys in our tech.


Mine are 3500k Cree CXB3590s, 36v, Top Bin. Run with Meanwell LPF-90D-42 Drivers at 2150mA.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> Why can't you guys just let folks grow with what works for them? I mean are you really so fucken anal that you'd sit in a weedsite constantly beating a dead horse to what end? If folks can run hid's and do well i support them, If folks wanna try to be part of the New tech wave and have great results wonderful......Some of you sound like a used car saleman trying to convince a buyer he knows what he is talking about....until you bring said car home and the thing isnt as advertised....welcome to MERIKA!
> 
> Just an fyi, My brother and i spent thousands of dollars trying these Cob flowers grown in colorado,washington, and arizona, i did NOT see,taste, or notice a diff that id go out and swap my equipment for! If you can grab decent genetics, know how to grow and keep your plants happy(cannabis aint known for being difficult to grow), then have curing down to a decent level your lighting should be the last of your worries with today's options man. Shit 800-1000 watts of t-5's put out PHENOMANOL flowers!
> View attachment 3813714


The point is, what you waste 1000w on, I would only need.. 3 x 89w = 267w. Each putting out 850-950 PPFD, plus overlap. Adds up to what 1000w of HPS is bringing you.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> It's not 10 years away, it's already here. And no one is bowing at the chest except those of the HID crowd who says it isn't. COB was, as I've stated, invented to replace HID in high bay/low bay industrial applications. Unlike HID, most of their wattage is used on light, not wasted on heat, and with optimization, its spectrum is easily more ideal for growing than HID, making more of its light usable in comparison to HID. While HID is incandescent, COB is solid state.
> 
> For the record, I don't give a fuck about money. I get paid a pension the rest of my life. So you're definitely wrong about me caring about what I spent. I owned two "450w LED panels" before my COBs. No comparison between LED panels and COBs. One of my 89w COBs smokes both of my ViparSpectra V450s that draw 206w each.
> 
> 10 years away.. A lot of hot air coming from someone who has no experience with COBs at all. If you did, you probably wouldn't say such stupid things; it just proves your inexperience with them and that you are the one bowing your chest out while you cling to the sinking ship that HIDs have become.



You sound like an NCO dude lol! I'd cringe to think of what the clowns over here would charge for a "white" cob that works well thats got proven results behind it. I went to a local shop last week to just "look" ya know.............35 bucks for a 4oz bottle of einstein oil? I walked away, I love supporting local buis but jesus h crist man not if im gonna get burned like that, i too get a pension for this fucken thing called life but this is stealing man lol! Ok just saw your 1000 watt post..........i use 600 tubes but if your saying i can replace 1000 watts for 150 of cob and its comparable im interested, i may have to steal one from a store but im interested lol.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> You sound like an NCO dude lol! I'd cringe to think of what the clowns over here would charge for a "white" cob that works well thats got proven results behind it. I went to a local shop last week to just "look" ya know.............35 bucks for a 4oz bottle of einstein oil? I walked away, I love supporting local buis but jesus h crist man not if im gonna get burned like that, i too get a pension for this fucken thing called life but this is stealing man lol!


You have to get proper COBs, brother. You'll see. Cree, Citizen, or Vero at the moment.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> The point is, what you waste 1000w on, I would only need.. 3 x 89w = 267w. Each putting out 850-950 PPFD, plus overlap. Adds up to what 1000w of HPS is bringing you.


This confuses me.........
Is that wrong?


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

850-950 ppfd and overlap is this the actual spectrum?
Whats the energy draw like on say a couple of the 267 set-ups?
Also if you dont mind me asking whats the max size cobs come in atm that are PROVEN like white you mention?


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> This confuses me.........
> Is that wrong?


Nope. Find the scaling PPFD of your typical HPS. You'll see what I mean.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> 850-950 ppfd and overlap is this the actual spectrum?
> Whats the energy draw like on say a couple of the 267 set-ups?
> Also if you dont mind me asking whats the max size cobs come in atm that are PROVEN like white you mention?


http://www.tastyled.com/

Everything you need to know is there. 1200 is the maximum PPFD a typical cannabis plant can use. At 1500, photoinhibition and other issues start to occur.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

ok obviously i have some research to do......i just figured out my brewer
my old one was weak man...




But if i can figure out soil dynamics i can handle this im sure. I always avoided led's because one of my fave breeders told me to just stick with my current gear until leds are similar in pricing as hid equip lmao.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

I have a few plants in various stages of growth..............i wanna try one of these badboys man....seriously, btw thankyou for taking the time to explain this to me. I am sincerely interested, you kidding me man, If i could light up all 4 rooms and my basement and have less than a 400 electric bill id be very very happy like elmer fudd huntin wabbits!


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

MANGOBICHE said:


> I have a few plants in various stages of growth..............i wanna try one of these badboys man....seriously, btw thankyou for taking the time to explain this to me. I am sincerely interested, you kidding me man, If i could light up all 4 rooms and my basement and have less than a 400 electric bill id be very very happy like elmer fudd huntin wabbits!


Fuck, yeah, man. Ain't no bullshit, either. But you are right, startup is expensive.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

Fuck it i aint scared sarge!


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## TacoMac (Oct 25, 2016)

7 post in a row.

Yep. Time to cut him off. He's had enough.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

You sound like donald trump taco lol


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 25, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> 7 post in a row.
> 
> Yep. Time to cut him off. He's had enough.


What the fuck are you even bitching about? This is a forum, where people converse, and derive information. The information you have is incorrect and I urge you to do your research in order to be properly informed, or risk looking severely retarded.


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## Dankistino (Oct 25, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> I love how two alt accounts run by the same person typing in the same moronic, uneducated, childish fashion try to pass it off as two different people agreeing to the same lame point that is in fact not even remotely accurate.
> 
> Once again proving me 100% correct.


you're a silly clown. you go from not having a clue about lighting to accusing folks of phony posts Youre as credible as your butt hurt protests are cringe worthy. Only an idiot claims to be "100%" correct" based on fantasy and denial.


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## MANGOBICHE (Oct 25, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> What the fuck are you even bitching about? This is a forum, where people converse, and derive information. The information you have is incorrect and I urge you to do your research in order to be properly informed, or risk looking severely retarded.


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## thenotsoesoteric (Oct 25, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> The point is, what you waste 1000w on, I would only need.. 3 x 89w = 267w. Each putting out 850-950 PPFD, plus overlap. Adds up to what 1000w of HPS is bringing you.


You can grow 2.5+ pounds of chronic off 267w of c.o.b.? I find that hard to believe but anything is possible.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 26, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> @Olive Drab Green what kind of yield do you pull from 267w/COB? How many sq/ft can you cover with that? It took me 700+ watts/COB to throw down >1000PPFD in a 4x4


What amperage and how many emitters? I get ~850 PPFD from one. 36v, 3500k, 80 CRI, Top Bin CXB3590 driven at 2150mA. I suspect you are driving multiple emitters at like, 700mA and are using some other older or weaker emitter. You definitely don't need 700w for 1000 PPFD.


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## HydoDan (Oct 26, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> 7 post in a row.
> 
> Yep. Time to cut him off. He's had enough.


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## HydoDan (Oct 26, 2016)

TacoMac said:


> Exactly. And I've done exactly that. There is no discernible difference at all. But that doesn't stop the whole "COB crowd" from bowing up in the chest and insulting everybody hand over fist because they spent a ton of money on them.
> 
> Simple fact is: They make no difference at all.
> 
> The real promise of COB lighting is probably 10 years away. I'm thinking by then, they're going to be increasing the efficiency of LED's a good bit. I'm thinking that the power savings in the futrure is going to be closer to the 40% mark, and that along with lower cost as they go more main stream, will be the end of HPS / MH.


You ignorance is showing again.. go educate yourself... then come back...or don't!


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 26, 2016)

Just wondering what the best gram per watt average is for those of you using LED?? under hps,mh, or both ive heard claims of 1.5 gpw,never seen it personally, my best was with 1 600watt hps and 1 600 watt mh over a 4x6ft table and i hit just short of 1.3 gpw... with the ceramics first run using 2 315watt over the 4x6ft table so 630watt total and got 800 grams dry weight 1.4 gpw..each run after its gone up,, i wonder if 2 gpw is possible with ceramics? is 2 gpw acheivable with hps,mh or both? if so were is the proof? those of u running LED please tell us ur best gpw..i assume that 2 gpw is achievable with LED, but who has actually reached the 2gpw mark? and is there any proof,,not just claims???


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 26, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> Just wondering what the best gram per watt average is for those of you using LED?? under hps,mh, or both ive heard claims of 1.5 gpw,never seen it personally, my best was with 1 600watt hps and 1 600 watt mh over a 4x6ft table and i hit just short of 1.3 gpw... with the ceramics first run using 2 315watt over the 4x6ft table so 630watt total and got 800 grams dry weight 1.4 gpw..each run after its gone up,, i wonder if 2 gpw is possible with ceramics? is 2 gpw acheivable with hps,mh or both? if so were is the proof? those of u running LED please tell us ur best gpw..i assume that 2 gpw is achievable with LED, but who has actually reached the 2gpw mark? and is there any proof,,not just claims???


I will let you know at the conclusion of this grow. I haven't finished one yet under these, but I have never had the plant grow so big in all stages compared to the LED panels I've used, and I have never had a seedling or veg'ing plant push trichomes on fan leaves under those old panels like I am not. The size of the plant from seedling on up is relatively exponentially larger and more rapid under just one of these 89w COBs than it ever was under 2 "450w" panels drawing 206w each. The PPFD and my observations correlate and help me conclude that these COBs in this setup are equivalent to the productivity under a 400-600w HPS.


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## Aaron Forshaw (Oct 26, 2016)

Twilightbud said:


> How can you really say they are the way to go ??? people are getting decent results with cob' tech its not going to stop there look at the stocks ? Cree has leveled off and is dropping could 2018 bring out a better lighting technology ??
> Well if we look at our advancements from 10 years ago YES Cree cobs will be the HPS of the led industry
> 
> With all the fairy tales and lies we see and here daily Yes even from growers on here claiming unreal yields specially with cobs soon anyone can really say yes its better efficient.. But it lacks in penetration and with that yield more efficient less yield ???
> ...


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## Dankistino (Oct 26, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> Just wondering what the best gram per watt average is for those of you using LED?? under hps,mh, or both ive heard claims of 1.5 gpw,never seen it personally, my best was with 1 600watt hps and 1 600 watt mh over a 4x6ft table and i hit just short of 1.3 gpw... with the ceramics first run using 2 315watt over the 4x6ft table so 630watt total and got 800 grams dry weight 1.4 gpw..each run after its gone up,, i wonder if 2 gpw is possible with ceramics? is 2 gpw acheivable with hps,mh or both? if so were is the proof? those of u running LED please tell us ur best gpw..i assume that 2 gpw is achievable with LED, but who has actually reached the 2gpw mark? and is there any proof,,not just claims???


bro do your own research. you cant expect folks to assuage your uneducated suspicions.



greengenes pic


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## HydoDan (Oct 26, 2016)

You forgot to post!?!?


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 26, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> Yes I drive 16x Citizen CLU048 1212 for every 2x meanwell 320's built into one grow light and I have 6 of them. Your running your cob's at over 70 watts each and mine are around 40, My COB's at 40 watts each are around 55% efficient I can't imagine that your CXB3590 would be more efficient than that driven at over 70 watts? I cover 16 sq/ft with 700 watts @1050PPFD, My question is how many square feet are you covering [email protected] watts with?


Like, just 2x2 for one unit. Two sufficiently cover my 2x4-2x5 closet. Even my cactus are enjoying the lesser indirect side lighting. Pretty interested in the lower amperage bringing higher PPFD. Is your emitter higher voltage? How does that work?


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 26, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> So is that 2x2 for one [email protected]? or is that 2x2 for the 3 of the CXB3590's @267? They are 36 volt emitters just like your cree. The lower amp only put's out that much PPFD because there is 16 of them/1 for every sq/ft. If I tried to run one of them at the amperage you are running I would see a lot less efficiency, If I ran 32 of them instead of 16 I could probably get that same 1050 PPFD with only 550-600 watts in the same 4x4-16 sq/ft


One. Regarding my efficiency, for my purposes, I'm not really concerned about 178 watts. I only use two, by the way. If anything, I might just need one more. To completely eliminate any shade, but for the two plants I have going now, this is still fine and in the optimum range.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 27, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> According to the PAR Watt's PPFD conversion you need around 75 par watts to have 850 PPFD/4sq ft. Your 1x CXB3590 @ 2150ma would have to be around 100% efficient to throw down 850PPFD over 4sq. ft, unless I'm missing something?


All I can say is, @Rahz tests his photon flux with a proper PAR spectrometer. He gets the specs before he markets all of his fixtures, and I trust his measurements. One of my lights does, in fact, put out 850-900 PPFD.


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## Rahz (Oct 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> All I can say is, @Rahz tests his photon flux with a proper PAR spectrometer. He gets the specs before he markets all of his fixtures, and I trust his measurements. One of my lights does, in fact, put out 850-900 PPFD.




The PPF of a T1-2100 is about 170. The PPFD in the recommended footprint (18"x18") was/is 820. The T2 has always been the 2x2 flowering option but the T1 is capable of doing a nice job flowering a plant.


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## Afgan King (Oct 27, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> Just wondering what the best gram per watt average is for those of you using LED?? under hps,mh, or both ive heard claims of 1.5 gpw,never seen it personally, my best was with 1 600watt hps and 1 600 watt mh over a 4x6ft table and i hit just short of 1.3 gpw... with the ceramics first run using 2 315watt over the 4x6ft table so 630watt total and got 800 grams dry weight 1.4 gpw..each run after its gone up,, i wonder if 2 gpw is possible with ceramics? is 2 gpw acheivable with hps,mh or both? if so were is the proof? those of u running LED please tell us ur best gpw..i assume that 2 gpw is achievable with LED, but who has actually reached the 2gpw mark? and is there any proof,,not just claims???


Hit 2g a watt regularly shit partner just hit 2.4 a light got a lil over 34lbs off of 14 gavitas


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 27, 2016)

Rahz said:


> The PPF of a T1-2100 is about 170. The PPFD in the recommended footprint (18"x18") was/is 820. The T2 has always been the 2x2 flowering option but the T1 is capable of doing a nice job flowering a plant.


Guaranteed, I only need two T1s for this closet, in any case. I may get one of your new T1-V196 fixtures just to round it all out at some point. Just to round out any shade. Trying to work that in.


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## Olive Drab Green (Oct 27, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> So the T1 has a PPFD of 820 over a 18"x18" canopy which makes sense, according to the formula that would make the T1 around 53% efficient. That same light covering a 24"x24" area would make that PPFD approximately 460, not 850.


I have two, not spread to wide, but they overlap and I have one plant under each. Definitely not using 460. My LED panels produced about 420. This is an exponentially vast improvement. I have the amount of light I need easily for two closet-large plants. Their response is pretty incredible.


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 27, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> Hit 2g a watt regularly shit partner just hit 2.4 a light got a lil over 34lbs off of 14 gavitas


ok thats gavita,s,, big op u got... i think the larger the area the greater the chances of hitting the high gpw's...
no LED answers?? i was expecting claims of 2.5 gpw or better,,lol


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## Banana444 (Oct 27, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> Hit 2g a watt regularly shit partner just hit 2.4 a light got a lil over 34lbs off of 14 gavitas


34#=544oz=15504g. 14 1000w gavitas use over 1000 watts each...thats not 2.4g per watt and not real impresive. Even if they are 600w thats under 2g a w...plus how much ac are you running?


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## a mongo frog (Oct 27, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> thats not real impresive.


Yea I'm sure you work with those numbers all the time. Real easy task right?


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## Banana444 (Oct 27, 2016)

They are just numbers, and im not sure how he figures 2.4g per watt


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## a mongo frog (Oct 27, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> They are just numbers, and im not sure how he figures 2.4g per watt


Naw, its super hard work to get those numbers. Fatigue sets in and its a motherfucker.


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## rob333 (Oct 27, 2016)

J. Killroy13 said:


> I am sure this has been covered before but I set my room up with a 600w hps. I have been thinking about getting an led to cut down on electricity and heat. My main concern is plant production. So to the vetters out there who have tried both, what are my realistic expectations?
> How to they really compare in plant productivity?
> How much can I honestly save in electricity?
> How much temp do they cut out?
> ...


hps will win hands down and leds are good till one of the lights fail then u are up shit creak


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## Banana444 (Oct 27, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Naw, its super hard work to get those numbers. Fatigue sets in and its a motherfucker.


I mean if thats one person, that processes all of that, thats impressive. I couldnt do that but i work more than a full time job. The argument was g/w not that growing 34#s wasnt impressive....kudos...and who cares how ya grow as long as you do. I tell ya if i had the room i would fire up all of my "old" digital ballasts.


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## Dankistino (Oct 27, 2016)

rob333 said:


> hps will win hands down and leds are good till one of the lights fail then u are up shit creak


Sounds like you've been involved in _big league_ research projects


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## rob333 (Oct 27, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Sounds like you've been involved in _big league_ research projects


maybe so i just no if my hps bulbs shits itself i will walk to my nearest hydro shop 1 2 and 3 i screw my bulb in and off i go if my led light shits a bulb it packing it back up and sending it back to the dealer to be replaced 4 weeks later what is flowering your plants ohhh let me guess you have more then one led light well i have my dick in my hand then dont i ??


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## rob333 (Oct 27, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Sounds like you've been involved in _big league_ research projects


its just the americans that rekon led lights are good to you see any dutch growers useing them ???


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## rob333 (Oct 27, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Sounds like you've been involved in _big league_ research projects


anyway im not here saying that there are no good led light i no there are i have seen them but hey i am not spending near on 1300 dollers for a led light were i can fit out a hps or even a lec system or if i was gunna spends that much coin it would be plasma all the way plasma will walk all over led


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## Dankistino (Oct 27, 2016)

Not sure about what goes on in ND. Not sure it matters.
Dutch silicon valley isn't really a thing.

Your physics/biology knowledge looks to be on PAR with your spelling.


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## Afgan King (Oct 27, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> 34#=544oz=15504g. 14 1000w gavitas use over 1000 watts each...thats not 2.4g per watt and not real impresive. Even if they are 600w thats under 2g a w...plus how much ac are you running?


Only run them at 1000 you do know you can do that right? And I do 2 a light with hps. 14000 watts running = 34.27lbs but that's not impressive lmao what you get? Lets see your numbers and quality of weed please id love to know how a master such as yourself not impressed with these measly numbers does. So please post on btw here's a closeup of the weed pulled but I'm sure you've seen better quality too huh? I mean shit we just suck on this side


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## Afgan King (Oct 27, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> They are just numbers, and im not sure how he figures 2.4g per watt


I meant 2.4lbs a light my bad I misspoke but please again let's see your big league grows and numbers


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## Afgan King (Oct 27, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> 34#=544oz=15504g. 14 1000w gavitas use over 1000 watts each...thats not 2.4g per watt and not real impresive. Even if they are 600w thats under 2g a w...plus how much ac are you running?


Electric costs 1200 a month crop every two months so 32lbs on last crop for a cost of 2400$ in electric so cost of 1lb and then those other 31 get donated at 2k a piece in one move. This run was 34.27lbs again 2400 in electric for those 2months and 33lbs get donated for 2k a piece in one move......ya not real impressive to spend 2400 and make 60+ grand every two months.....shitty numbers bet you could do better huh? You ever work with 14 lights? I mean I've grown in rooms with 45 lights but I'm sure a master like you has done bigger


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## Afgan King (Oct 28, 2016)

Here's the room btw week 6 in this pic


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## Lordhooha (Oct 28, 2016)

I'm just geeked out my wife let me get some new LEDs! Mainly she doesn't want me building them so I got these to try yah!
https://www.ledgrowlightsdepot.com/collections/1000-watt-hid-replacements/products/lifted-led-city-14


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## Lordhooha (Oct 28, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> Here's the room btw week 6 in this pic View attachment 3816247


That's bad ass man!


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## Afgan King (Oct 28, 2016)

Lordhooha said:


> That's bad ass man!


Ya gavitas are the shit can Control like the sun we will now that its fall ramp up for first 2 hours to 1000 then 1150 for the next 8 hours then go back down to 1000 and slowly die down for next two hours. Seen some crazy grows where the plants respond to the lights acting like this. Pretty cool honestly


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## Lordhooha (Oct 28, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> Ya gavitas are the shit can Control like the sun we will now that its fall ramp up for first 2 hours to 1000 then 1150 for the next 8 hours then go back down to 1000 and slowly die down for next two hours. Seen some crazy grows where the plants respond to the lights acting like this. Pretty cool honestly


Ive seen them in person they're pretty cool. I just like led an that's why I use them. In general my grows are no where near yours I only do 24 total. 12 in veg and 12 in the bloom room. Much respect to you and your grow.


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## Afgan King (Oct 28, 2016)

Lordhooha said:


> Ive seen them in person they're pretty cool. I just like led an that's why I use them. In general my grows are no where near yours I only do 24 total. 12 in veg and 12 in the bloom room. Much respect to you and your grow.


Oh I love LEDs I'm just waiting till I have absolute proof that I will pull the same if not more. Idc about electric cost idc about nutes cost I care about quality and consistency. I use hps and have no issues with quality or weight. Don't have ceiling height for gavitas myself but the hps work great. I'd love to do all LEDs hell I been telling @ttystikk to throw me some and let me pay for em over the next grow and let me be his tester lol cuz i can have side by side rooms same everything but lights and do real experimenting with 20+ flowering plants a room lol I like LEDs man I really do and i know the potential is there just waiting for it to prove it undoubtedly and I'll switch lol


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## Lordhooha (Oct 28, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> Oh I love LEDs I'm just waiting till I have absolute proof that I will pull the same if not more. Idc about electric cost idc about nutes cost I care about quality and consistency. I use hps and have no issues with quality or weight. Don't have ceiling height for gavitas myself but the hps work great. I'd love to do all LEDs hell I been telling @ttystikk to throw me some and let me pay for em over the next grow and let me be his tester lol cuz i can have side by side rooms same everything but lights and do real experimenting with 20+ flowering plants a room lol I like LEDs man I really do and i know the potential is there just waiting for it to prove it undoubtedly and I'll switch lol


I just bought two of these tonight I should get them next week!
https://www.ledgrowlightsdepot.com/collections/1000-watt-hid-replacements/products/lifted-led-city-14

Check them out they seem insane they gave me a good bit off when I spoke to them today.


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## Lordhooha (Oct 28, 2016)

Sorry man I'm just kind of excited lol


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## Afgan King (Oct 28, 2016)

Lordhooha said:


> Sorry man I'm just kind of excited lol


It's all good I get excited about good lighting too lol I just like seeing advancements in this field skyrocket it's pretty awesome


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## Afgan King (Oct 28, 2016)

Lordhooha said:


> I just bought two of these tonight I should get them next week!
> https://www.ledgrowlightsdepot.com/collections/1000-watt-hid-replacements/products/lifted-led-city-14
> 
> Check them out they seem insane they gave me a good bit off when I spoke to them today.


That's a bad bitch damn but that price tag would hurt unless I knew for a fact it was better and would last lol


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## Lordhooha (Oct 28, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> That's a bad bitch damn but that price tag would hurt unless I knew for a fact it was better and would last lol


I bought lush, kind and all sorts of high dollar lights. The PPFD is what caught my eye. I'll keep everyone updated once I get it.


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## rob333 (Oct 28, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Not sure about what goes on in ND. Not sure it matters.
> Dutch silicon valley isn't really a thing.
> 
> Your physics/biology knowledge looks to be on PAR with your spelling.


gotta love a grammer nazi you no when they have shit to back up there cause they will attack someones grammer next time let me no we were getting marks on how we spell shit ya toss bag


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## rob333 (Oct 28, 2016)

vicotry lighting i was going to say is a chinese led dealer but they are punching out good cob leds built with clu and epistar inbox me if use would like a pricing list


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## rob333 (Oct 28, 2016)

starts at 66$ us for a 300w epistar led grow light 98$ for the clu taiwaan famous led lights


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## Banana444 (Oct 28, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> Oh I love LEDs I'm just waiting till I have absolute proof that I will pull the same if not more. Idc about electric cost idc about nutes cost I care about quality and consistency. I use hps and have no issues with quality or weight. Don't have ceiling height for gavitas myself but the hps work great. I'd love to do all LEDs hell I been telling @ttystikk to throw me some and let me pay for em over the next grow and let me be his tester lol cuz i can have side by side rooms same everything but lights and do real experimenting with 20+ flowering plants a room lol I like LEDs man I really do and i know the potential is there just waiting for it to prove it undoubtedly and I'll switch lol


Nice setup, your living the dream. I wish i could quit my dad job and blow it up that big. I will be there one day, but for now i rock a 9x10 room perpetual. I know there are a lot of very valid complaints about leds and 99% of led grow light marketed are crap when compared to gavitas or cmh. But honemade leds, if you got the skills to make a solid light that is going to run cool and is not going to burn out diodes, they will last at least ten years with no need to replace anything. Ive never had an led burn out, but i have built all my lights exept for 1, and for the price inpaid for that i felt it was a bit steep for what i could have bought in parts to build my own.


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## mauricem00 (Oct 28, 2016)

Twilightbud said:


> How can you really say they are the way to go ??? people are getting decent results with cob' tech its not going to stop there look at the stocks ? Cree has leveled off and is dropping could 2018 bring out a better lighting technology ??
> Well if we look at our advancements from 10 years ago YES Cree cobs will be the HPS of the led industry
> 
> With all the fairy tales and lies we see and here daily Yes even from growers on here claiming unreal yields specially with cobs soon anyone can really say yes its better efficient.. But it lacks in penetration and with that yield more efficient less yield ???
> ...


 seems like your wasting your time arguing with the LED crowd. i'm a small scale PU MMJ closet growers. for my environment T5s work best. I have tried LEDs (mars hydro,UFO with 10 watt diodes,vero 18s. cree 3070s) and was not impressed. (lower yield and quality). the term "full spectrum" is used a lot and is very misleading.the light may put out some energy from 380-760nm but it is far from a balanced spectrum. even the mars hydro with it's low power 3 watt diodes can burn plants if placed too close. and LEDs may produce high PPF numbers at the center but those numbers drop of rapidly as you move away from that center focal point so you get "hot spots" and uneven coverage. CMH and T5s produce a better SPD and more uniform coverage. veg time and genetics (strain) have big influence on yield.there are very few true medical strains ( 1to1ratio THC/CBD) and for MMJ patients quality and effectiveness is far more important than GPW. I want long lasting relief with the smallest dose possible. I don't want the "cheech and chong experience". I want to be as active and clear headed as possible


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## 3500d (Oct 30, 2016)

Have a room setup right now that consists of 2 platinum p1200, 1 kind xl1000, 2 600 hps. 30 plants of 3 different strains. A few of of each strain under each diff light. I'm 6 weeks into flower and seeing much diff results than I expected....


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## mauricem00 (Oct 30, 2016)

3500d said:


> Have a room setup right now that consists of 2 platinum p1200, 1 kind xl1000, 2 600 hps. 30 plants of 3 different strains. A few of of each strain under each diff light. I'm 6 weeks into flower and seeing much diff results than I expected....


from your picture it looks like your HPS is giving you more "sugar". it will be interesting to see the results of the "smoke test"


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## Dankistino (Oct 30, 2016)

rob333 said:


> gotta love a grammer nazi you no when they have shit to back up there cause they will attack someones grammer next time let me no we were getting marks on how we spell shit ya toss bag




Half wit, you are without a clue. Youre drooling like a crazed skunk.

Im not a grammar nazi at all. Im simply pointing out that a poster who struggles with spelling, syntax and coherence is probably going to be a failure with physics and biology. Youve proved me right!

I have built a diy that provides ~1100ppfd in my garden. It is composed of cxb3590 and vero29s. It has a 730 nm pontoon and a uvb t5. On the other hand you are recommending chinese trash. Youre illiterate, inexperienced and exposing your ignorance.


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## Dankistino (Oct 30, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> seems like your wasting your time arguing with the LED crowd. i'm a small scale PU MMJ closet growers. for my environment T5s work best. I have tried LEDs (mars hydro,UFO with 10 watt diodes,vero 18s. cree 3070s) and was not impressed. (lower yield and quality). the term "full spectrum" is used a lot and is very misleading.the light may put out some energy from 380-760nm but it is far from a balanced spectrum. even the mars hydro with it's low power 3 watt diodes can burn plants if placed too close. and LEDs may produce high PPF numbers at the center but those numbers drop of rapidly as you move away from that center focal point so you get "hot spots" and uneven coverage. CMH and T5s produce a better SPD and more uniform coverage. veg time and genetics (strain) have big influence on yield.there are very few true medical strains ( 1to1ratio THC/CBD) and for MMJ patients quality and effectiveness is far more important than GPW. I want long lasting relief with the smallest dose possible. I don't want the "cheech and chong experience". I want to be as active and clear headed as possible


So essentially your message is "well i failed at making use of the most efficient lighting on the market and I'm spreading the word" 
Youre suggesting t5's! lol like <20% efficiency? Maybe it's your lack of gardening skills, failure to do research, closed mindedness, or simple dullness? Why blame technology?


greengenes


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## 3500d (Oct 30, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> from your picture it looks like your HPS is giving you more "sugar". it will be interesting to see the results of the "smoke test"


As of right now the trichomes under the platinum are insane. The platinum is doing as well or better than the hps. The kind is garbage


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## Dankistino (Oct 30, 2016)

3500d said:


> As of right now the trichomes under the platinum are insane. The platinum is doing as well or better than the hps. The kind is garbage


Lets see a pic.
Among DIY and experienced LED growers platinum led has a reputation as an overpriced, conniving, disreputable reseller of Chinese made, dated 3rd rate gear
If interested, https://www.rollitup.org/t/platinum-led.863351/page-16#post-13081786


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## 3500d (Oct 30, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Lets see a pic.
> Among DIY and experienced LED growers platinum led has a reputation as an overpriced, conniving, disreputable reseller of chinese made made, dated 3rd rate gear
> If interested, https://www.rollitup.org/t/platinum-led.863351/page-16#post-13081786


Not denying the general consensus at all nor am I trying to convince anyone to buy them. Trust me I wish I would have dug deeper before I assumed the led market was like most things and you get what you pay for. But sometimes when you think you've dug deep enough you need to dig a little deeper. Had I known what I know now I would have built a stupid ridiculously powerful led setup myself.


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## Dankistino (Oct 30, 2016)

3500d said:


> Not denying the general consensus at all nor am I trying to convince anyone to buy them. Trust me I wish I would have dug deeper before I assumed the led market was like most things and you get what you pay for. But sometimes when you think you've dug deep enough you need to dig a little deeper. Had I known what I know now I would have built a stupid ridiculously powerful led setup myself.


Same. My first light was a mars 900. I grew some pretty nice flowers with it.

As soon as i learned the deal with cobs, from Supra, i upgraded.

When you get around to building your own it will be cheaper and more efficient. so little harm done.


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## 3500d (Oct 30, 2016)

Dankistino said:


> Same. My first light was a mars 900. I grew some pretty nice flowers with it.
> 
> As soon as i learned the deal with cobs, from Supra, i upgraded.
> 
> When you get around to building your own it will be cheaper and more efficient. so little harm done.


Yea I got caught it up in the marketing ploy, and I had a large area to fill, I've only filled part of the room so far so here very quickly I'm gonna be doing the rest. pretty sure I'm gonna go the diy route it's just damn all the info can be nauseating!! If anyone has some large scale ( around 400 sq ft) diy tips they would be willing the share im all ears


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## TheChemist77 (Oct 31, 2016)

i agree with to each his or her own,,, if u like LED,HPS,MH,T5,COMPACT FLOUROS, CMH WHATEVER,,, growers grow and that is GREAT.. so long as u love what u do...
i have grown for 28 years now,,used hps for 25 years,, recently switched to ceramics and am very happy,,HOWEVER im very interested in saving money on electric i cut my bill in half going from hps to ceramics.. if i can cut my bill by going LED and keep my yields and potency,,, its apealling i just need to be SURE its going to work before i invest.. i already have 7 hps hoods n ballasts being unused,, id hate to add 4 brand new ceramic's to the unused pile,,just to TRY with LED.. GROW WELL AND BE WELL TO ALL!!!!


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