# soap??? wetting agent????



## rexx8 (Feb 17, 2009)

Ive heard of using soap as a wetting agent does this mean it doesn't bead up on the leaves during foliar feeding im confused can somebody clear this up for me please

how much soap?
what kind of soap?

thanks fellow grower rexx8


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## Greenisgold (Feb 18, 2009)

Since most spray bottles are small, use 1 drop and go from there. What it does is it causes the the water/nutes to not roll off the leaves. It's also good as a bug preventative.


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## SHOTTY6868 (Feb 18, 2009)

yhea its ok. liquid dish detergent of any kind without bleach is good. it acts as an immuclifier to break down the nutrients and help it hold on to foliar. i only used the dish soap when i neem oil for insects every sunday during the veg. process. i use 1 1/2 teaspoon per quart of water. 1 quart should be plenty. if u wanna foliar feed, try folic acid, it works pretty good and if done correctly throughout growth, you will see an increase in yield of about 10%. thats an extra 8th. an oz. its worth it to me. try iggy's


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## UserFriendly (Feb 18, 2009)

SHOTTY6868 said:


> yhea its ok. liquid dish detergent of any kind without bleach is good. it acts as an immuclifier to break down the nutrients and help it hold on to foliar. i only used the dish soap when i neem oil for insects every sunday during the veg. process. i use 1 1/2 teaspoon per quart of water. 1 quart should be plenty. if u wanna foliar feed, try folic acid, it works pretty good and if done correctly throughout growth, you will see an increase in yield of about 10%. thats an extra 8th. an oz. its worth it to me. try iggy's


Apparently soap and detergent are 2 different things. Do not use detergent. There are specialty products like SM-90 and Coco Wet that do nicely.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Feb 18, 2009)

I use palmolive dish soap from my kitchen, I also put a drop in my feeding water. It helps the water flow through the soil.


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## shimmz22 (Mar 19, 2011)

when you add the soap to your water do you shake your water to mix the soap in or just add the drop of soap and then water?


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## Jack Larson (Mar 20, 2011)

I like SM-90 because you can also use it when watering/feeding as it works on roots equaly as well + it smells good!


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## GoldenGanja13 (Mar 22, 2011)

There is a great product that works like a barrier penetrator when Foliar feeding. Its called Dutch Masters Penetrator. Google it. I started using it this season and I love it


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## Wolverine97 (Mar 22, 2011)

If using dishsoap as a surfactant it should be a biodegradable form, such as Ivory. Or just pink bar soap, either way...

Edit: to be clear, the pink soap comment was a joke.


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## SCARHOLE (Mar 22, 2011)

I always heard Ivory only as well,
But I never used it...


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2011)

Best and cheapest home made surfactant aka a "spreader" only, is Ivory liquid dish soap. It is not a sticky type agent which you don't need unless your watering overhead foliage and all.. 1/4 tsp/liter is fine. Any non-ionic spreader-sticker aka surfactant can be purchased cheap at a feed store. One gallon should cost no more than $15, RedRiver is a good non-ionic surfactant. I also use another commercial product called Surf-King. It's a spreader, sticker, pH buffering agent, and penetrator. 

BTW, the "90" stands for the amount of the active ingredient. 90% is a high grade. Get 88% or better. If they're charging you more than $5.00 for a liter, you're takin' it in the shorts. 

As expected, another oil company is trying to hit the lotto using alot of bullshit in their lead in ads - http://www.tcs-hydroponics.com/doc/hydronutrients.htm

Get wise people, boycott such ripoff artists as Dutchmasters. 

UB


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## legallyflying (Mar 22, 2011)

DM penetrator is definitely the most effective surfactant I ave ever used and I have used a shit load in my restoration company dealings. That said, its too damn expensive. I'm currently using dr. bronners scent less soap. 

UB, where do you get the surf-pro from? Can't find it from any of the companies I have accounts with?


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## Jack Larson (Mar 22, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Best and cheapest home made surfactant aka a "spreader" only, is Ivory liquid dish soap. It is not a sticky type agent which you don't need unless your watering overhead foliage and all.. 1/4 tsp/liter is fine. Any non-ionic spreader-sticker aka surfactant can be purchased cheap at a feed store. One gallon should cost no more than $15, RedRiver is a good non-ionic surfactant. I also use another commercial product called Surf-King. It's a spreader, sticker, pH buffering agent, and penetrator.
> 
> BTW, the "90" stands for the amount of the active ingredient. 90% is a high grade. Get 88% or better. If they're charging you more than $5.00 for a liter, you're takin' it in the shorts.
> 
> ...


Sure, while I'm at it, I'll paint my car with house paint because that fancy paint they use at the dealership is just marketing bullshit. 
I spend too much time, effort & money to save $20 by using a product that "*could"* work. I invest hundreds and save thousands. 
Why be cheap? Besides, I'd rather give my money to my local hydro shop than spend it at the corporate Wally World, whether it's $10 or $1,000.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> DM penetrator is definitely the most effective surfactant I ave ever used and I have used a shit load in my restoration company dealings. That said, its too damn expensive. I'm currently using dr. bronners scent less soap.
> 
> UB, where do you get the surf-pro from? Can't find it from any of the companies I have accounts with?


Surf-King, not Pro --> http://www.estesinc.com/specs/surfkingspec.pdf I buy it from Estes which has changed names. Being that I'm about to hop into the seat of the tractor and airblast my field, I checked out the RedRiver90 in my shop that I buy locally at a feed store. A Crown Line Product like SurfKing or Hi-Yield Spreader-Sticker or any good non-ionic surfactant that is 90% AI is what to look for. I paid $13.65 for a gallon of Red River90. Dutchmaster probably buys it or a similar product in bulk, repackages it, slaps a colorful label and name on it that appeals to kids, 'Penetrator', as they bilk you *$120.00 for a gallon*. The oil companies have no shame, and the loyal followers have no sense.

Jack, hope the paint job works fer ya.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2011)

Jack Larson said:


> I spend too much time, effort & money to save $20 by using a product that "*could"* work.


"Could work"? Funny stuff....

You could save about $107, but you'd rather support a crooked industry and silly idealogy than buy into quality and value, eh? Until a little honor and integrity works it's way thru the cannabis industry, I'll not support any of it. That's MY idealogy and I'm stickin' to it. 

UB


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## GoldenGanja13 (Mar 23, 2011)

UB~ Dutch Masters Saturator claims it delivers the foliar spray past the leaf membrane and 100% of feed goes into leaf. Does Surf King get past the membrane and into plant 100% or is it just product that sticks to leafs an leaf takes up some what of foliar feed?


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## dlively11 (Mar 23, 2011)

Personally I like cocowet for around $35 a gallon. I have used soap in a pinch. As for the whole "oil companies are out to get you" You do realize that EVERYTHING you buy practically is out to get your money. That is what makes an economy work... money and profit. If someone is willing to pay for it it isnt ripping anyone off. You always have the option to hunt for bargains but it doesnt mean the store up the street is "ripping you off"...... If you ever once sold any of your medication to anyone for more then it cost you to grow it did you "rip them off" ?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> UB~ Dutch Masters Saturator claims it delivers the foliar spray past the leaf membrane and 100% of feed goes into leaf. Does Surf King get past the membrane and into plant 100% or is it just product that sticks to leafs an leaf takes up some what of foliar feed?


Yes. In the previous post I gave you a link to the technical specs. BTW, of the 65 gallons of spray material I blasted this morn in the field, I only used 5 oz of SurfKing. Until it dries, it leaves a shiny complete coating on the leaf material. The plant will take it up only if it stays on and that's the main function of a surfactant, to negate the leaf's surface tension causing the mix to spread out as opposed to roll up into droplets and fall off. The addition of sticking properties is a benny, but not necessarily a requirement on cannabis as opposed to using an herbicide like glyphosate or doing a foliar spray. If I take the time and spend the money to spray 2 miles of row with an herbicide using a handgun, I want to insure it doesn't wash off with the first rain. In fact, I've sprayed an hour or two before a thunderstorm is due and got an excellent burn with herbicides that have a surfactant adjuvant added to the mix.


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## legallyflying (Mar 23, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> UB~ Dutch Masters Saturator claims it delivers the foliar spray past the leaf membrane and 100% of feed goes into leaf. Does Surf King get past the membrane and into plant 100% or is it just product that sticks to leafs an leaf takes up some what of foliar feed?


surf king is a penetrator. The degree that a product actually penetrates is a factor of its acidity and oil content. The oils help to break down the surface tension and the acidity helps to pass through the waxy cuticle and be absorbed into the plant membranes. BTW, no product can accurately claim 100% absorption into the leaf. It just doesn't work like that.

PS I still don't know where to buy the fucking stuff. The online forestry supply and ag business I have accounts with don't carry it. Guess I can shop around at some of the ag stores but don't have tons of time for that.


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## Jack Larson (Mar 23, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> "Could work"? Funny stuff....
> 
> You could save about $107, but you'd rather support a crooked industry and silly idealogy than buy into quality and value, eh? Until a little honor and integrity works it's way thru the cannabis industry, I'll not support any of it. That's MY idealogy and I'm stickin' to it.
> 
> UB


So you advocate Supporting Big Box Stores and Large Corporations (Miracle Grow, Ivory Soap) that can afford millions in TV ads & all manner of Sponsorships? But my local guy at the hydro shop is dishonorable & crooked? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> surf king is a penetrator. The degree that a product actually penetrates is a factor of its acidity and oil content. The oils help to break down the surface tension and the acidity helps to pass through the waxy cuticle and be absorbed into the plant membranes. BTW, no product can accurately claim 100% absorption into the leaf. It just doesn't work like that.
> 
> PS I still don't know where to buy the fucking stuff. The online forestry supply and ag business I have accounts with don't carry it. Guess I can shop around at some of the ag stores but don't have tons of time for that.


Yeah, Surf King meets all those parameters. This gets kinda techie but it explains all the products. http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/custer/projects/planning/weedwebdocs/feis_appendix_j_herbicide_efficacy.pdf

All feed stores in my town carry a lot of these surfactants, and that includes Tractor Supply Company. In fact, I bought the Red River 90 at a feed store. TSC has one called L100.

UB


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## legallyflying (Mar 23, 2011)

I think what he is saying is if your a savy consumer, you wouldn't be spending 500% more for a product that does the same thing but just happens to be marketed to a group of consumers that are really into getting stoned allot, observing the effects a certain product has, and then coming to the conclusion that this, and only this product can make this happen because it was developed by these super smart weed scientists. 

Cannabis is just another plant guys. Its got unique characteristics, just like other plants but the physiology of the plant and the mechanisms that make products work on this plants are identical. You can happpily trip away on the "corporate techno-industrial machine" and its souless consumption of the planet line of thinking but those are the companies that employ the real scientist and chemists that develop these products, not the guys at dutch masters or humbolt products, or whatever. MJ product selling is 80% marketing. There are some unique products for sure and companies do but the time in to make sure their stuff works well, don't get me wrong. But I think you will find that the more a company markets specifically to pot growers (cough) Advanced Nutrients (cough) the greater the markup. 

I'm not going to cry a fucking river about the plight of my local hydro store owner, he is doing quite well. There is another locally owned store that sells agriculture products and he is just as much a local as the hydro guy. I don't need to take it in the ass to support my community. 

P.S. I never, ever, fucking ever shop at walmart. I went in to one once though, fucking scary shit. I thought to myself "oh, this is the segment of the population that I always hear about, the under educated obese people that save money by spending money". 

Gee honey, we don't NEED that 20 piece grill accessory kit, but its soo cheap, I mean 20 PIECES! and its only $4.99.....


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## legallyflying (Mar 23, 2011)

UB, link for link... Little less techie but good to know what base the oil components of various surfactants are derived from....

http://www.herbicide-adjuvants.com/cgi-bin/adjdb.cgi?db=adjproductview&prodkeyword=Nonionic Surfactant&view_records=1&sb=3&so=ascend&ww=on&ProductValidated=Yes&nh=3


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> UB, link for link... Little less techie but good to know what base the oil components of various surfactants are derived from....
> 
> http://www.herbicide-adjuvants.com/cgi-bin/adjdb.cgi?db=adjproductview&prodkeyword=Nonionic%20Surfactant&view_records=1&sb=3&so=ascend&ww=on&ProductValidated=Yes&nh=3


Nice link!

Yep, I'm one of those nasty "haves".....sitting on more than a mil of tangible and intangible assets. Sure as hell didn't get where I'm at pissing off my money on non-value added products or being less than frugal bordering on the neurosis side lol.  I get tired of listening to the "have nots" and their whiney complaints about how evil corportate America is. The rich provide jobs, the poor do not. The poor got where they are (or are not) based on their choices.

UB


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## NLNo5 (Mar 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I think what he is saying is if your a savy consumer, you wouldn't be spending 500% more for a product that does the same thing but just happens to be marketed to a group of consumers that are really into getting stoned allot, observing the effects a certain product has, and then coming to the conclusion that this, and only this product can make this happen because it was developed by these super smart weed scientists.
> 
> Cannabis is just another plant guys. Its got unique characteristics, just like other plants but the physiology of the plant and the mechanisms that make products work on this plants are identical. You can happpily trip away on the "corporate techno-industrial machine" and its souless consumption of the planet line of thinking but those are the companies that employ the real scientist and chemists that develop these products, not the guys at dutch masters or humbolt products, or whatever. MJ product selling is 80% marketing. There are some unique products for sure and companies do but the time in to make sure their stuff works well, don't get me wrong. But I think you will find that the more a company markets specifically to pot growers (cough) Advanced Nutrients (cough) the greater the markup.
> 
> ...


Ur wisdom don't match ur avatar....lol.


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## legallyflying (Mar 23, 2011)

NLNo5 said:


> Ur wisdom don't match ur avatar....lol.


Too wit, Randy Marsh is in fact a scientist. Just like myself  

I think the point of my avatar is that south park does a pretty damn good job and pointing out the irony and stupidity of america and americans. If you think that wall mart is evil.... you REALLY need to listen to this... The commentary is from the south park creators. 

[video=youtube;fimSeb5jLeE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fimSeb5jLeE&feature=related[/video]


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## NLNo5 (Mar 23, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Best and cheapest home made surfactant aka a "spreader" only, is Ivory liquid dish soap. It is not a sticky type agent which you don't need unless your watering overhead foliage and all.. 1/4 tsp/liter is fine. Any non-ionic spreader-sticker aka surfactant can be purchased cheap at a feed store. One gallon should cost no more than $15, RedRiver is a good non-ionic surfactant. I also use another commercial product called Surf-King. It's a spreader, sticker, pH buffering agent, and penetrator.
> 
> BTW, the "90" stands for the amount of the active ingredient. 90% is a high grade. Get 88% or better. If they're charging you more than $5.00 for a liter, you're takin' it in the shorts.
> 
> ...


Quarter tsp of ivory dish soap per liter. Good input.

Anyone ever use simple green...prolly works well, not sure if it is healthy for the plant.
Choose your soap wisely. Lots of dish soaps nowadays have chemical biostatic agents in them like triclosan that will kill your soil microbes. Stick with a soap that biodegrades and doesn't have the special nasa antibiotic bs in it.


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## Jack Larson (Mar 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I think what he is saying is if your a savy consumer, you wouldn't be spending 500% more for a product that does the same thing but just happens to be marketed to a group of consumers that are really into getting stoned allot, observing the effects a certain product has, and then coming to the conclusion that this, and only this product can make this happen because it was developed by these super smart weed scientists.
> 
> Cannabis is just another plant guys. Its got unique characteristics, just like other plants but the physiology of the plant and the mechanisms that make products work on this plants are identical. You can happpily trip away on the "corporate techno-industrial machine" and its souless consumption of the planet line of thinking but those are the companies that employ the real scientist and chemists that develop these products, not the guys at dutch masters or humbolt products, or whatever. MJ product selling is 80% marketing. There are some unique products for sure and companies do but the time in to make sure their stuff works well, don't get me wrong. But I think you will find that the more a company markets specifically to pot growers (cough) Advanced Nutrients (cough) the greater the markup.
> 
> ...


Wow...a real live Critical Thinker! A rare breed these days. Hope U B is taking notes  I know I am. Thanks for the example of Civilized Discourse...


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## NLNo5 (Mar 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Too wit, Randy Marsh is in fact a scientist. Just like myself
> 
> I think the point of my avatar is that south park does a pretty damn good job and pointing out the irony and stupidity of america and americans. If you think that wall mart is evil.... you REALLY need to listen to this... The commentary is from the south park creators.
> 
> [video=youtube;fimSeb5jLeE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fimSeb5jLeE&feature=related[/video]


Right you are, dude's a geologist. About irony and stupidity of Americans. Not sure just what the magnitude of that is. Certainly we have a few Americans who manage to accumulate some wisdom. I myself try not to be too cynical about my country and my fellow citizens. After all I catch myself in foolish moments on a regular basis. I think it has something to do with being a human being in general not necessarily American.


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## NLNo5 (Mar 23, 2011)

All of this going on in a dishsoap thread at a marijuana growers forum. lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 24, 2011)

NLNo5 said:


> All of this going on in a dishsoap thread at a marijuana growers forum. lol.


Ivory Dish Soap - for the prettiest hands and leaves this side of the planet!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 24, 2011)

> *I think what he is saying is if your a savy consumer, you wouldn't be spending 500% more for a product that does the same thing but just happens to be marketed to a group of consumers that are really into getting stoned allot, observing the effects a certain product has, and then coming to the conclusion that this, and only this product can make this happen because it was developed by these super smart weed scientists. *


Yep



legallyflying said:


> Gee honey, we don't NEED that 20 piece grill accessory kit, but its soo cheap, I mean 20 PIECES! and its only $4.99.....


Off topic but it might help save you some money. I have purchased quite a few items at 2 sites I visit daily without fail. Some for NO cost, just $5.00 postage. Here are the links: http://1saleaday.com/
http://www.woot.com/

At winewoot.com just bought some awesome gourmet bleu cheese and have some gourmet cheddar coming, waiting for the nice man in the brown truck.  Great value on the wines too. They change daily, so, snooze ya lose.

A while back I ordered some gourmet chocolate caramel candy with a touch of salt on top from this firm, The Candy Basket. I can vouch for their quality, it's excellent. Fudge - http://wine.woot.com/

UB


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## legallyflying (Mar 24, 2011)

Thanks for the links. I need to do a restock of the wine cellar. Especially after I told a friend of mine, who just HAD to have another bottle of wine at 10 when the dinner party was winding down "there is a bottle of nice Shiraz in the pantry". She comes out with an opened bottle of cab.... The $150 French Cab I have been saving for over 2 years. Which she then spilled a glass of on the rug 30 minutes later.


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## Wetdog (Mar 24, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Best and cheapest home made surfactant aka a "spreader" only, is Ivory liquid dish soap. It is not a sticky type agent which you don't need unless your watering overhead foliage and all.. 1/4 tsp/liter is fine. Any non-ionic spreader-sticker aka surfactant can be purchased cheap at a feed store. One gallon should cost no more than $15, RedRiver is a good non-ionic surfactant. I also use another commercial product called Surf-King. It's a spreader, sticker, pH buffering agent, and penetrator.
> 
> BTW, the "90" stands for the amount of the active ingredient. 90% is a high grade. Get 88% or better. If they're charging you more than $5.00 for a liter, you're takin' it in the shorts.
> 
> ...


Yep, back in the day Ivory unscented was the thing.

Guess what you can't find? There must be 10 different Ivories at the store and not one of them was unscented.

I'll check out the TSC on my next visit. Picked up the big Blue Book last month. If they don't have it in stock, they'll order it out of the master catalog for you.

Wet


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 24, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Thanks for the links. I need to do a restock of the wine cellar. Especially after I told a friend of mine, who just HAD to have another bottle of wine at 10 when the dinner party was winding down "there is a bottle of nice Shiraz in the pantry". She comes out with an opened bottle of cab.... The $150 French Cab I have been saving for over 2 years. Which she then spilled a glass of on the rug 30 minutes later.


Someone just lost a friend.  I've put in about 10 orders with winewoot and been a little disappointed only once. Finally got tired of paying for wine and put in my own vineyard of the finest vinifera clones. Just came in for lunch a few minutes ago after debudding the crud on my Merlot in fact. Hope to get about 1,500 lbs. of grapes this year, or let's put it this way, the birds are gonna fatten up on 1,500 lbs. of my hard work! 



Wetdog said:


> Yep, back in the day Ivory unscented was the thing.
> 
> Guess what you can't find? There must be 10 different Ivories at the store and not one of them was unscented.
> 
> ...


I can still get unscented Ivory. If you ask the store manager they should be happy to get it for you. Only time I use it on plants anymore is in a pot drench.


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## Jack Larson (Mar 26, 2011)

When making wine, one should simply use Wonder Bread from Wal-Mart for innoculation as Pasteur Red is just over priced snake oil...(lol)


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## BarnBuster (Jun 20, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Any non-ionic spreader-sticker aka surfactant can be purchased cheap at a feed store. One gallon should cost no more than $15, RedRiver is a good non-ionic surfactant. I also use another commercial product called Surf-King. It's a spreader, sticker, pH buffering agent, and penetrator.


still good recommendation?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 20, 2015)

yep


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 22, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Someone just lost a friend.  I've put in about 10 orders with winewoot and been a little disappointed only once. Finally got tired of paying for wine and put in my own vineyard of the finest vinifera clones. Just came in for lunch a few minutes ago after debudding the crud on my Merlot in fact. Hope to get about 1,500 lbs. of grapes this year, or let's put it this way, the birds are gonna fatten up on 1,500 lbs. of my hard work!
> 
> 
> 
> I can still get unscented Ivory. If you ask the store manager they should be happy to get it for you. Only time I use it on plants anymore is in a pot drench.


Just made me think of one of my redworms favorite foods, rotting grapes, I bet you could have a redworm farm the size of massachusetts


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## WeedFreak78 (Jun 25, 2015)

I was always told to use Dawn liquid..and i think that was based on the fact it's what's used to clean animals in oil spills so it's considered "safe"..IDK how that applies to plants.


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