# Defoliation Trial - 4 Clones



## Hobbes (Jan 4, 2022)

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I'm going to run 4 plants:

plant 1: as the control with no defoliation
plant 2: lollipoped only
plant 3: lollipoped and a defoliation on day 1 of flower
plant 4: lollipoped and 2 defoliations - day 1 of flower and day 21of flower

I defoliate twice and my sugar leaves take a beating through flower, I'm really interested in the results. I'll weigh the larf on the first plant up to the lollipop level on the other plants, see if the lollipop is worthwhile.

I'm going to be using 4 Serious Happiness clones from Serious Seeds - Serious Seeds will be offering a discount to readers of the thread, stay tuned.



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I cloned in a bubbler:



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Off of this mother plant:



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I grew for 20 years without ever even pruning a leaf, the great solar panels, leaf pumps, the more the better.



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Then I watched a series of videos by Black Dog LED where they stripped every fan leaf from the plant twice, and they got great results.



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So I gave it a try and got good results, maybe better than before.



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I've been curious which style grows more bud, if defoliation is just busy work, if there's something to getting more light to the lower bud sites or if there's some type of hormone released when the foliage is attacked heavily.



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This is an open thread: opinions, insight, constructive criticism are welcome.

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## NanoGadget (Jan 4, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I'm going to run 4 plants:
> 
> ...


I did something very similar several years ago. 3 clones, each in their own 2x2 with the same light. one was no trimming, one lollipopped with a conservative defol right before flip, another followed the day 1 and day 21 heavy defol model. the results were interesting, but I didn't take pics or document the results other than jotting down final dry weights so I am super curious to follow along and see how it goes for you. subbed.


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## Star Dog (Jan 4, 2022)

Nice one, I like these comparison tests.


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## crimsonecho (Jan 4, 2022)

NanoGadget said:


> I did something very similar several years ago. 3 clones, each in their own 2x2 with the same light. one was no trimming, one lollipopped with a conservative defol right before flip, another followed the day 1 and day 21 heavy defol model. the results were interesting, but I didn't take pics or document the results other than jotting down final dry weights so I am super curious to follow along and see how it goes for you. subbed.


how interesting were they?


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## NanoGadget (Jan 4, 2022)

crimsonecho said:


> how interesting were they?


more interesting than televised golf but less interesting than quantum mechanics.


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## crimsonecho (Jan 4, 2022)

NanoGadget said:


> more interesting than televised golf but less interesting than quantum mechanics.


damn my search for the ultimate excitement continues


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## NanoGadget (Jan 4, 2022)

crimsonecho said:


> damn my search for the ultimate excitement continues


I mean I am a total nerd, so my notion of what is interesting may not be helpful to others. 

in all seriousness, what surprised me was that the difference in dry weight between the 3 plants was not that significant. At least not as significant as all the arguments about defoliation on the interwebz would have lead me to believe.


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## crimsonecho (Jan 4, 2022)

NanoGadget said:


> I mean I am a total nerd, so my notion of what is interesting may not be helpful to others.
> 
> in all seriousness, what surprised me was that the difference in dry weight between the 3 plants was not that significant. At least not as significant as all the arguments about defoliation on the interwebz would have lead me to believe.


i’m there with you had a similar experience and there were no magical kilos of nugs popping everywhere i haven’t experienced significant (if any) yield increase so i’m not bothering with it anymore just a light defol for better airflow


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## Observe & Report (Jan 5, 2022)

Your experiment is too under powered to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Jan 5, 2022)

Oh man can't what to for the inclusion results. Doubled checked by a panel of tbeir peers...lmfao


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## Hobbes (Jan 5, 2022)

Observe & Report said:


> Your experiment is too under powered to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.


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I should be running 10+ clones per defoliation type, but I still should get enough difference to make the trial worthwhile.

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## kingzt (Jan 5, 2022)

Can’t wait to see final results. I think lollipopping helps a lot. I never defoliated crazy like the 3lb a light people but always wondered if I should be doning that


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## PopAndSonGrows (Jan 5, 2022)

KILLER post. Someone willing to get down to the meat of this issue. Very nice.

Here's my take: plants grow more leaves than they'll ever fully need, to the point that leaves could get in the way of flower production, either by blocking light or by "bunching up" and just physically being in the way. I also theorize that the really huge fan leaves use more energy to stay alive than they actually provide toward plant or flower growth. "Solar panels", they say; yeah well, you don't need to cover the ENTIRE ROOF of your house with giant solar panels, lol.


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## JustBlazin (Jan 5, 2022)

I'm definitely subbed to this thread, thanks for making it Hobbes
I have a feeling lots of members will be interested in your findings.
I started to experiment with heavy defoliation after seeing your grow journal a year or two ago. 
Didn't notice any significant changes in yield but I'd say less larf and more dense buds lower on the plant. Plus made it a bit easier on trim day.

Thanks again Hobbes can't wait to see the outcome


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## Rurumo (Jan 5, 2022)

Sweet Hobbes, looking forward to this!


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## Samwell Seed Well (Jan 5, 2022)

Observe & Report said:


> Your experiment is too under powered to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.





Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I should be running 10+ clones per defoliation type, but I still should get enough difference to make the trial worthwhile.
> 
> .


any difference in a single plant is big. Don't let the bean coutners tell you a percentage increase isnt a huge deal. if it trends with the extra labor.

just people are invested in hating things they choose to not understand so much they will literally throw money away to feel correct.


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## Observe & Report (Jan 5, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> I should be running 10+ clones per defoliation type, but I still should get enough difference to make the trial worthwhile.


You're only running one each, you can't have any fewer. You wont know if any differences are the effect you're studying, random chance, or from some uncontrolled variable, like normal variation in plant size.


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## PopAndSonGrows (Jan 5, 2022)

Observe & Report said:


> You're only running one each, you can't have any fewer. You wont know if any differences are the effect you're studying, random chance, or from some uncontrolled variable, like normal variation in plant size.


If they're all the same clones, the results should still be noteworthy. Your points are valid for any multi-plant run, really, but it doesn't mean his results will be inconclusive simply because he's not running 100 plants.


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## Hobbes (Jan 6, 2022)

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A couple of pics of the mother plant 5.5 weeks into flower.



Lots of time left to bulk up.



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The roots from one of the clones, I transplant after a good root ball is formed.



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## cindysid (Jan 6, 2022)

So glad to find this thread! I always learn so much from you!


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## Hobbes (Jan 8, 2022)

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Thanks Cindy!

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Does anyone know other plants that produce more because of defoliation? 

I'm going to make a list of plants and look for theories about why defoliation works. There's very little on the web about why defoliation increases harvest, if it does.

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## cindysid (Jan 8, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Thanks Cindy!
> 
> ...


I'm planning my first scrog, first LED flower grow for this Spring. I know that defoliation will be absolutely necessary for airflow. I hope it also improves my yield.


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## Nizza (Jan 8, 2022)

The Influence of Apical and Basal Defoliation on the Canopy Structure and Biochemical Composition of Vitis vinifera cv. Shiraz Grapes and Wine


Defoliation is a commonly used viticultural technique to balance the ratio between grapevine vegetation and fruit. Defoliation is conducted around the fruit zone to reduce the leaf photosynthetic area, and to increase sunlight exposure of grape bunches. Apical leaf removal is not commonly...




www.frontiersin.org


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## cindysid (Jan 8, 2022)

Nizza said:


> The Influence of Apical and Basal Defoliation on the Canopy Structure and Biochemical Composition of Vitis vinifera cv. Shiraz Grapes and Wine
> 
> 
> Defoliation is a commonly used viticultural technique to balance the ratio between grapevine vegetation and fruit. Defoliation is conducted around the fruit zone to reduce the leaf photosynthetic area, and to increase sunlight exposure of grape bunches. Apical leaf removal is not commonly...
> ...


Very interesting article! How interesting that removing apical growth reduced alcohol concentration in the end product! Basal defoliation seems much more effective at least for grapes.


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## Rurumo (Jan 8, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Thanks Cindy!
> 
> ...


Here is an interesting paper that talks about how soil microbes can induce systemic resistance and help regrow plant tissue in response to herbivorous insects. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2017.01816/full

And this one gets into some good detail about ISR/SAR https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4233886/

I've always noticed strong growth following some defoliation, so it makes sense to me that we're seeing the result of induced systemic resistance. The question is how much defoliation is optimal, and when should it be done? I have no idea, so I'm pretty conservative with it. It's a really interesting topic and I'm looking forward to your grow Hobbes.


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## Hobbes (Jan 8, 2022)

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Thanks for the links Rurumo, I'll dive into them.

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I've still got 4 weeks of flower so the smell will probably grow even more, right now it's a floral-berry smell. The only strain that I had just a strong smell was Blue Dream, and that was all blueberry and no floral.

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"Her aroma and taste are sweet and fruity, sometimes a bit spicy, with a sugary aftertaste when smoked." - Serious Seeds.



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Serious Happiness


Two legends were crossed to produce the Serious Happiness strain. We combined our famous Warlock-father with our legendary AK-47-mother and the result gave us pure happiness! In fact this hybrid brings happiness TWICE.




www.seriousseeds.com





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## Samwell Seed Well (Jan 8, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> A couple of pics of the mother plant 5.5 weeks into flower.
> 
> ...


Nice!


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## Samwell Seed Well (Jan 8, 2022)

cindysid said:


> Very interesting article! How interesting that removing apical growth reduced alcohol concentration in the end product! Basal defoliation seems much more effective at least for grapes.


lots of benefits to removing leaves and eliciting a atypical hormone response as well as , a boost of growth from internal production of auxins.

most people are lazy, or they defoliate too often, has to be timed to arrest growth only right after to promote another


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## Hobbes (Jan 10, 2022)

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These clones are a lot more branchy than the mother.






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I topped the clones for the first time tonight, at 6" over the pot lip.



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I topped a node higher than usual, I'm hoping that all the branches catch up to the canopy as shown in Serious' photo below.



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## Hobbes (Jan 18, 2022)

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I found this through a google search, the author makes a good point that I haven't considered.

It takes energy to keep a leaf alive.

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"That's where defoliation comes in; by removing some of this excess foliage, not only do you free up some of your plant's energy (by reducing the amount of foliage it needs to keep alive), but you help your plant make better use of its *limited* light source. "

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"Does defoliation increase yields?


Pruning, or defoliation, is a technique that keeps your cannabis plants healthy and growing properly. By removing small amounts of foliage during various phases of the life cycle, *growers can increase a crop's yield and potency* by allowing light to hit bud-producing nodes more directly."

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"How can this be? Why would the plant make leaves if it doesn’t need them?

Outdoors, cannabis plants need extra leaves to store nutrients and create an extra wall of defense in case the plant gets attacked by pests or otherwise loses all its leaves. But indoors there should be no pests, and you are there to give your plants the exact nutrients it wants at the exact right time. This makes holding onto leaves a lot less useful for the plant, especially some plants which get extremely bushy without defoliation."

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"*Cannabis isn’t the only plant that benefits from defoliation*

To those naysayers who claim defoliation can NEVER work, I think it’s important to point out that cannabis isn’t the only plant that rewards growers with bigger yields and higher quality from defoliation. Some commercial crops, such as cotton, need to be defoliated during their grow to produce the best yields and quality of cotton. In fact, even after 40 years of intense study on cotton defoliation, there is still controversy and ongoing research by commercial crop producers to further pinpoint the exact time and way to defoliate cotton plants in the field to produce the best results."

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"Proponents of defoliation generally cite higher yields as a benefit of defoliation, and it is this particular claim that is most in contention.

Opponents often invoke reduced photosynthetic activity as their reason against defoliation. The argument goes: more light, more leaves, more energy, more nutrient reserves, more yield.

Opponents are correct in their belief that photosynthetic activity is generally reduced by medium to heavy defoliation. Experiments involving defoliation and its effect on yield in many diverse plants have shown a consistent, causal link between defoliation and reduced yield in field-grown plants (outdoors.) This decrease is attributed to plant stress and decreased photosynthetic activity.

An exception in which yields increase is when the leaves removed have begun to senesce and have become sinks on the plant, rather than sources.

Typically, these older, larger fan leaves have lost efficiency with age. Opponents of defoliation often use the solar panel analogy. More and bigger solar panels mean more food for the plant. However, just as solar panels from 10 years ago are less efficient than those produced more recently, leaves also lose efficiency as they age. Leaves can begin to require more energy to stay alive than they produce. At this point, they are energy sinks, just as buds are. Unfortunately, buds as sinks produce a desired product; leaves do not. So at this point for the leaf, it is ALWAYS beneficial to remove them."

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Beyond Yield : *Release of Volatiles as a Defense against Herbivory*

"Terpenes are present in varying degrees in many healthy plants. However, when plants are damaged or defoliated through herbivory, particularly from insects and mites, the levels of terpenes and other volatiles are substantially increased in response to the damage.

This increase in volatile production, including terpenes, is most often used as a signal to repel pest insects, or more commonly, to attract the enemies of pest insects.

This effect appears to be systemic, meaning; infestation on an individual branch will elicit terpene production in distal, undamaged branches. "

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## Hobbes (Jan 18, 2022)

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And one write up on the other side:


*Defoliation: Myth vs Science*

It may surprise you to hear, that there is a small but very dedicated group of cannabis farmers who are convinced they can increasing their crops by removing ALL the big leaves in the flower cycle. Believers in this myth call the technique Schwazzing.

If you're a Scientist, the same thing is called "Abscission Stress" and the data produced by this group generally shows that any stress in the flower cycle results in lost profits.

You might think that any technique claimed to make a significant difference in the production of Cannabis flowers would be important enough that it would be tested and proven with some real data. Hopefully this would be a University study with no financial gain from the data, but even a private study could be fine if it were done well and not just to promote some product.

*So far.... NOTHING!*

Real data on this issue - with cannabis - simply does not exist.

Both sides are absolutely adamant in their conviction about how correct they are, but no matter what either side "thinks" they know... neither one can prove it.

...

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Defoliation: Myth vs Science (linkedin.com)

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## Severed Tongue (Jan 18, 2022)

So, I'm nearing 8 weeks of flowering, and majority of my main fans are damaged from spraying and subsequently showering a couple days later to clean off the residue and dead bugs.

Unfortunately I used my bathroom shower and it was too much and damaged all of them. I've left them on as they appear to still be doing their job, but have trimmed anything that might give way to infection.

At any rate, I've beat the bugs, but I'm wondering what would happen if I removed them all at this point?

Anyone have experience doing this at 8 weeks into flower?


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## keifcake (Jan 18, 2022)

cindysid said:


> I'm planning my first scrog, first LED flower grow for this Spring. I know that defoliation will be absolutely necessary for airflow. I hope it also improves my yield.


When first making the switch to led, proper light distance is a very important lesson I learned the hard way. I had mine too close at first, and started seeing deficiencies pop up that I was trying to treat, and after several weeks I finally started searching symptoms of too much light, and it appears the same as nutrient Def as it's slowly killing the plant.


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## Star Dog (Jan 18, 2022)

*Both sides are absolutely adamant in their conviction about how correct they are, but no matter what either side "thinks" they know... neither one can prove it.*

This is why I like these sort of experiments/tests 

I know this is primarily about yeild but I've an interest in the humidity changes, humidity is a expensive problem for me if the reduction in humidity through defoliation was sufficient any potential loss in yeild would be worth it to me for the peace of mind. 

I've not seen below 90% this year.


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## Boatguy (Jan 18, 2022)

Star Dog said:


> I've not seen below 90% this year.


Where do you find temps with humidity levels like that? Kinda horrifying. 
In my area we see that kind of humidity mainly in the summer, like july and august. It sucks


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## Star Dog (Jan 18, 2022)

Boatguy said:


> Where do you find temps with humidity levels like that? Kinda horrifying.
> In my area we see that kind of humidity mainly in the summer, like july and august. It sucks


That was actually during the night it got up to 8c today and the humidity down to 93% lol.

On the Scottish west coast the winds coming off the sea have soaked up lots of moisture from the gulf stream.


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## Boatguy (Jan 18, 2022)

Star Dog said:


> That was actually during the night it got up to 8c today and the humidity down to 93% lol.
> 
> On the Scottish west coast the winds coming off the sea have soaked up lots of moisture from the gulf stream.


Yikes. Im in the northeast us. 
After a summer of heat and humidity, we are greeted with cold temps and no humidity. Drying is easy here in the summer but growing is difficult, winter is the opposite.


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## cindysid (Jan 18, 2022)

keifcake said:


> When first making the switch to led, proper light distance is a very important lesson I learned the hard way. I had mine too close at first, and started seeing deficiencies pop up that I was trying to treat, and after several weeks I finally started searching symptoms of too much light, and it appears the same as nutrient Def as it's slowly killing the plant.


Yes, I will definitely need some guidance on that. Been growing with hps for years. Finally decided to try led.


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## cindysid (Jan 18, 2022)

Severed Tongue said:


> So, I'm nearing 8 weeks of flowering, and majority of my main fans are damaged from spraying and subsequently showering a couple days later to clean off the residue and dead bugs.
> 
> Unfortunately I used my bathroom shower and it was too much and damaged all of them. I've left them on as they appear to still be doing their job, but have trimmed anything that might give way to infection.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly no expert but I would remove the biggest ones that aren't directly attached to buds. JMO


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## Star Dog (Jan 19, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Thanks Cindy!
> 
> ...


I know that with tomatoes there's a particular type of vigorous growing vegetation that needs removing for the benefit of the crop, I'm not a tomato grower but it's a known practice you can check out.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Jan 19, 2022)

Good stuff Hobbes, many fruiting/flowering plants benefit from various forms of pruning defoilation and other forms of stress to elicit a hormonal or systemic response by the plant... horticulture is fun


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## Hobbes (Jan 19, 2022)

Severed Tongue said:


> So, I'm nearing 8 weeks of flowering, and majority of my main fans are damaged from spraying and subsequently showering a couple days later to clean off the residue and dead bugs.
> 
> Unfortunately I used my bathroom shower and it was too much and damaged all of them. I've left them on as they appear to still be doing their job, but have trimmed anything that might give way to infection.
> 
> ...


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Looking at your pic the leaves seem pretty good, but if you want to get more light deeper into the plant you could prune the big fan leaves.

What strain is it and how many more weeks do you estimate until harvest?

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## Severed Tongue (Jan 19, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Looking at your pic the leaves seem pretty good, but if you want to get more light deeper into the plant you could prune the big fan leaves.
> 
> ...


Thanks, not worried about light, was curious though on opinions if removing them would instigate new growth this late into it... I'm pretty sure it's a no, but never experienced so thought I would ask.

They are from an ACE feminized elite random 5 pack, so no idea what they actually are.

Looking like 2-3 more weeks at least.


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## Hobbes (Jan 20, 2022)

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The 4 clones after 2 toppings. I'm going to top twice more for 16 colas, as well as about 6 colas coming up the side branches. 

I started adding nitrogen with their feed, about month ago, much more lush than my last batch from seed.



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These 4 Serious Happiness plants are from seed, at 8 weeks. They're starting to swell up a bit, 2-3 more weeks.



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This is the mother of the four clones, I picked her over the other three because her colas were more even.



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## Hobbes (Jan 20, 2022)

Severed Tongue said:


> if removing them would instigate new growth this late into it


No, no new growth. You are correct. At this point you're just getting more light down deep.

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## cindysid (Jan 20, 2022)

Severed Tongue said:


> Thanks, not worried about light, was curious though on opinions if removing them would instigate new growth this late into it... I'm pretty sure it's a no, but never experienced so thought I would ask.
> 
> They are from an ACE feminized elite random 5 pack, so no idea what they actually are.
> 
> Looking like 2-3 more weeks at least.


Hate to hear about the mites...the only thing worse I ever had was root nematodes when I was in Florida. Both are tough to eradicate in flower, (at least for me). Glad you beat them!


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## Severed Tongue (Jan 20, 2022)

cindysid said:


> Hate to hear about the mites...the only thing worse I ever had was root nematodes when I was in Florida. Both are tough to eradicate in flower, (at least for me). Glad you beat them!


Thanks, it was aphids and whiteflies though not mites thankfully! My own fault for bringing in my pepper tree for the winter. Lesson learned, never again.


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## Hobbes (Jan 26, 2022)

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I topped all four clones for the 3rd time, giving 8 colas plus the side branches. I've got one more topping to do and then I'll let the 16 colas veg until about 10", probably get 2 or 4 inches of stretch.

A 12" cola will be long enough to give a good yield, but still be short enough so it won't bend under bud weight.



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I've been supplementing with Nitrogen and I have to say that my plants have never been more lush.



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## Hobbes (Jan 30, 2022)

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Serious Happiness (the strain I'm growing for this test) has a serious berry-floral smell stronger than any strain I've grown, even Blue Dream and Blueberry.

I'm going to give the garden one more week of flower then harvest, then I'll have the big tent free for the defoliation test.

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## calvin.m16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Looks great I'm surprised you haven't been attacked by the anti-defoliators yet.


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## Hobbes (Feb 4, 2022)

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LOL!

The anti-defoliators are welcome two, need two sides to keep each other honest.

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## Fiete (Feb 4, 2022)

I do defoliation all the time but not too much. I belive it's beneficial for more bud to leaf ratio what you think from your expirience? I try to pic the ones that blocking new growth ore Bud sited.


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## Boatguy (Feb 4, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> LOL!
> 
> ...


Thanks for your welcome. 
I have scrogged, mainlined, topped, natural, but have never done a clone side by side. Havent seen one either. 
Subbed, and good luck


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 4, 2022)

The clone in the front right is clearly in a different stage of growth than the others, which has been obvious from post 1. Because of this, I don't see the potential results being in any way conclusive.


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## HydroKid239 (Feb 4, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> I'm going to run 4 plants:
> 
> ...


I have stripped plants and got rid of all the huge fans in flower and had dense bud developement the whole way up the branches on lollipopped plants. I have left tons of lower branches on with no pruning... however on that particular run I was made to only chop what was above the net, and then I dropped my light down to finish the rest off. Everything on the bottom was shaded, and looked like week 5 flowers. The light hitting those bud sites is where it’s at from what I’ve grown. Some strains are said to throw a bit of a tantrum if stripped.


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## Hobbes (Feb 6, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> The clone in the front right is clearly in a different stage of growth than the others, which has been obvious from post 1. Because of this, I don't see the potential results being in any way conclusive.


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For some reason that clone was slower starting than the others and started out smaller. I adapted by putting that plant directly under the light and the other 3 plants off to the side a bit as they circle the smaller plant. 

The runt has caught up to and passed the other plants so I now have them in a circle in the tent again.

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The plant in question is the bottom right.



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You can see from the side view that it's now as tall as the other 3 clones. (bottom right)



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## Hobbes (Feb 6, 2022)

Fiete said:


> I do defoliation all the time but not too much. I belive it's beneficial for more bud to leaf ratioView attachment 5080035 what you think from your expirience? I try to pic the ones that blocking new growth ore Bud sited.


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Fiete how many nodes deep is your canopy?

Your plant looks good, I wouldn't prune any more.

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## Fiete (Feb 7, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Fiete how many nodes deep is your canopy?
> 
> ...


I check it later. Why?


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## Hobbes (Feb 7, 2022)

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If you're just growing 1 node deep, like a scrog, then you want to keep your leaves and bend them if they're blocking buds.

If you're 6 or 7 nodes deep then it'd be beneficial to remove the upper leaves.

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## Fiete (Feb 7, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> If you're just growing 1 node deep, like a scrog, then you want to keep your leaves and bend them if they're blocking buds.
> 
> ...


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## Hobbes (Feb 13, 2022)

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I stopped topping about a week ago and I've got about an inch of new growth. The 12" below this new growth is useless for growing buds and I'd always prune the sucker leaves and branches but this time I leave one clone fully dressed.

The plants have different canopies but are topped the same number of times.



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The structures to hold the colas is made, now another 2 - 3 weeks to grow the bud growing area.



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## Hobbes (Feb 17, 2022)

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I've got good news - I bought a new lamp from HLG, the Scorpion Diablo. The figures for the last harvest are very low compared to earlier gardens, I've noticed a diminishing yield over the past 2 or 3 grows.

The flower garden is still empty because the 4 clones have another 2-3 week to veg, I'm going to break down the Black Dog led and by next week install my new lamp.

I haven't weighed last harvest yet, they're all curing in Cvaults. I'll get an accurate figure with the Black Dog then we can compare the same genetics under a different light. The new light won't affect the defoliation trial at all.

I've been loyal to Black Dog for 2 1/2 years but I've got a solid feeling that the SD will blow last harvest's figures away.

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HLG Scorpion® Diablo – Horticulture Lighting Group

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## Fiete (Feb 17, 2022)

Defoliation


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## Hobbes (Feb 22, 2022)

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I finished harvesting, curing and weighing my first harvest of Serious Happiness - poor harvest due, in my opinion, to my Black Dog LED dimming.

My harvest weight for the 4 plants, dried and cured to 62%H, came out to 407 grams, not even a pound. My first and second grow were up around 850 grams and the others near there though I didn't weigh all my harvests.

I noticed changes in growth in things like watering - when I first started with the BD LED I was watering every 3 days, later grows I was watering every 6 days. The buds were smaller and airy.

I have the 4 clones in a veg tent and later this week I should get my Scorpion Diablo for the flower tent.

.

So instead of just one trial for defoliation we get a second test for yields for the BD and SD.

.


----------



## Hobbes (Feb 22, 2022)

.

One thing I have to say about Serious Seeds' Serious Happiness is that it has some punch!

I ran a Volcano bag about 4 hours ago and I'm still getting the white outs from the original hits. Potent.

.

Serious Happiness Strain | Originals by Serious Seeds 

.


----------



## Rurumo (Feb 22, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> One thing I have to say about Serious Seeds' Serious Happiness is that it has some punch!
> 
> ...


I actually just vaped some earlier Hobbes, it turned out really nice, not just the potency, but the high. It's a lot less racy than the Kali Mist, but really tuned in perfectly for daytime smoke.


----------



## Hobbes (Feb 24, 2022)

.

Rurumo did you notice a strong grape odor when smoking SH?

I vape mine and there's a brief space where the vapor escapes into the room, very strong grape smell but I don't get it in taste.

.


----------



## Cannabinoid Froyd (Feb 24, 2022)

I had been curious about that cultivar. Even more curious to see how the S.D. does for you. Plants look happy.


----------



## Hobbes (Feb 25, 2022)

.

I bought a new lamp for the test - I have about 2 weeks left before flower and my new Scorpion Diablo is shinning bright. It won't affect the trial at all and I can compare this harvest with my prior Black Dog Harvest.

(27) HLG Scorpion Diablo unboxing and set up | Rollitup

.



.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 13, 2022)

So what were the findings with different type pruning on similar clones?


----------



## Hobbes (Mar 14, 2022)

.

Haitham I haven`t swazzeed any of the 4 clones, only lollipoped 3 of them and left the 4th as the control with no defoliation.. This weekend I`m going to defoliate two plants and flip them into flower, then defoliate the second swazzeed clone 20 days later.

It`ll probably be 2-3 weeks before I notice any differences, I`ll update more often than I have been and post some pics.

.


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## Horselover fat (Mar 14, 2022)

I think I'll drop this here... The defo threads are usually too hectic and filled with laughing emojis. 

My last grow I had some troubles in veg and most fans got a bit damaged. I fixed my problem and then decided to experiment. I removed pretty much all leaves except for the small new growth. I have defoliated quite heavily before so I didn't really fear for the plant, and having had problems with it I didn't care that much either. 

This is the plant after removing most leaves. Pretty sad looking, right? 



This is the same plant one week later



Such a shock for the plant


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## bk78 (Mar 14, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> I think I'll drop this here... The defo threads are usually too hectic and filled with laughing emojis.
> 
> My last grow I had some troubles in veg and most fans got a bit damaged. I fixed my problem and then decided to experiment. I removed pretty much all leaves except for the small new growth. I have defoliated quite heavily before so I didn't really fear for the plant, and having had problems with it I didn't care that much either.
> 
> ...


Im not buying that’s a week after you stripped it. Do you have a journal where you recorded this by any chance?


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## Horselover fat (Mar 14, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Im not buying that’s a week after you stripped it. Do you have a journal where you recorded this by any chance?


Your belief is irrelevant. I did do a journal, but it's not more proof. I guess I could screen cap the exifs, but I could just be forgering them too.

That is pretty much only one layer of leaves though. Just looks thick from above.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 14, 2022)

I believe this is a week. What I want to understand is how did you keep it so short and stubby. I see the main trunk thickness and that's why I believe the plant can recover in 1 week. It is pulling healthy nutrients in vast amounts. My plants trunk turns this thick in mid flowering.


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## Horselover fat (Mar 14, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> I believe this is a week. What I want to understand is how did you keep it so short and stubby. I see the main trunk thickness and that's why I believe the plant can recover in 1 week. It is pulling healthy nutrients in vast amounts. My plants trunk turns this thick in mid flowering.


The training was pretty good, thanks  i just start LST early and keep at it. Nothing fancier really. Just keep the main at the same level as the rest and pull branches where you want them. 

And I checked the dates. It was actually eight days. First pics on 10th november and the leafy one on 18th.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 14, 2022)

I do the same, I don't cut the top though, but I tie it down to allow all the branches to grow evenly. Maybe cutting the top is what makes the trunk thicken up.


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## Horselover fat (Mar 14, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> I do the same, I don't cut the top though, but I tie it down to allow all the branches to grow evenly. Maybe cutting the top is what makes the trunk thicken up.


No topping. Only bending and tying... and some breaking of the branches to help set them at an angle.


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## xtsho (Mar 14, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> I think I'll drop this here... The defo threads are usually too hectic and filled with laughing emojis.
> 
> My last grow I had some troubles in veg and most fans got a bit damaged. I fixed my problem and then decided to experiment. I removed pretty much all leaves except for the small new growth. I have defoliated quite heavily before so I didn't really fear for the plant, and having had problems with it I didn't care that much either.
> 
> ...


How long has that plant been growing overall?


----------



## Horselover fat (Mar 14, 2022)

xtsho said:


> How long has that plant been growing overall?


This was taken on 6th october and the naked plant pic 10th novemember. I had put the clone in coco a couple of days earlier (that's a three litre pot btw). Prior to that it was in a small rockwool cube and lit by a three watt led bulb.


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## xtsho (Mar 14, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> This was taken on 6th october and the naked plant pic 10th novemember. I had put the clone in coco a couple of days earlier (that's a three litre pot btw). Prior to that it was in a small rockwool cube and lit by a three watt led bulb.
> 
> View attachment 5101679


When was the plant finished and harvested?


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## Horselover fat (Mar 14, 2022)

xtsho said:


> When was the plant finished and harvested?


January 29th I spotted mold on a top and chopped at 10 weeks 12/12. It was about time anyway, but I would have waited a bit more if no mold.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 14, 2022)

Any picture before you committed the ultimate crime and killed it? I would love to see your harvest from this girl. She looks awesome when defoliaged. So she was about 10 weeks into veg and training before flowering.


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## Horselover fat (Mar 15, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> Any picture before you committed the ultimate crime and killed it? I would love to see your harvest from this girl. She looks awesome when defoliaged. So she was about 10 weeks into veg and training before flowering.


Not quite ten weeks.. 7-8 weeks I think... It seems I flipped 18th/19th nov. Let's not take more space in hobbes' thread, but here: https://www.rollitup.org/t/led-users-unite.240615/post-16793456 

I'm also not saying everyone should strip their plants. I'm not even saying the plant grew faster. I had nothing to compare to so how would I know. What I am saying is it did not slow down by much. That much I'm sure of.


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## Hobbes (Mar 15, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> Let's not take more space in hobbes' thread, but here: https://www.rollitup.org/t/led-users-unite.240615/post-1679345


.

Take all the space you need, interesting stuff.

.


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## I_grow_weed (Mar 15, 2022)

I love it, very cool stuff you guys


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## potpimp (Mar 15, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> I think I'll drop this here... The defo threads are usually too hectic and filled with laughing emojis.
> 
> My last grow I had some troubles in veg and most fans got a bit damaged. I fixed my problem and then decided to experiment. I removed pretty much all leaves except for the small new growth. I have defoliated quite heavily before so I didn't really fear for the plant, and having had problems with it I didn't care that much either.
> 
> ...


I just don't understand the logic of this. It takes energy to regrow the leaves, so why do you let them come back? I'm not being critical; I'm just trying to understand why stripping them of leaves, only to let them regrow is a net positive for the plant.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 15, 2022)

Like any plant, the more you prune it the stronger it gets. This is not about energy balance. You are right it takes energy, thats why you let it grew for a week after pruning. But when its time for flowering the plant is strong and can pull more nutrients.


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## Rurumo (Mar 15, 2022)

potpimp said:


> I just don't understand the logic of this. It takes energy to regrow the leaves, so why do you let them come back? I'm not being critical; I'm just trying to understand why stripping them of leaves, only to let them regrow is a net positive for the plant.


It's a phenomenon known as "overcompensation" in botany. You can't generalize results though, overcompensation is highly genotype specific, and what works for one genotype may hinder the yield of another. Here is a nice overview if you're interested: https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecy.2667


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## potpimp (Mar 15, 2022)

Rurumo said:


> It's a phenomenon known as "overcompensation" in botany. You can't generalize results though, overcompensation is highly genotype specific, and what works for one genotype may hinder the yield of another. Here is a nice overview if you're interested: https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecy.2667


Great find; I'm reading it now. I have noticed that when I let my herbs (basil, cilantro, sage, etc) grow, they seemed to stall out. When the wife needed some culinary herbs, I cut them and noticed that a week later they had grown back vigorously. I'm not sure if herbivores eating the fan leaves are a real "threat" to MJ, but I'm enjoying this experiment and anxiously awaiting the final results.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 15, 2022)

No matter what you call it. Pruning a plant is something done from the past 100's maybe 1000's of years. If you have a fruit trees you would know what it is. Grapes or mint or herbs or fruit trees, etc are prunes every season to increase the trunk size or the fruit output. Our Ancaster farmers did it without even knowing the science behind because they see the results.








Pruning - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org




.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 15, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> No matter what you call it. Pruning a plant is something done from the past 100's maybe 1000's of years. If you have a fruit trees you would know what it is. Grapes or mint or herbs or fruit trees, etc are prunes every season to increase the trunk size or the fruit output. Our Ancaster farmers did it without even knowing the science behind because they see the results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any you consider pruning and leaf stripping to be the same thing? I'm asking, because the link you posted does not mention this at all.


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## bk78 (Mar 15, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> No matter what you call it. Pruning a plant is something done from the past 100's maybe 1000's of years. If you have a fruit trees you would know what it is. Grapes or mint or herbs or fruit trees, etc are prunes every season to increase the trunk size or the fruit output. Our Ancaster farmers did it without even knowing the science behind because they see the results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can’t say I’ve ever seen a fruit tree swazzled, have you?


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## rkymtnman (Mar 15, 2022)

bk78 said:


> I can’t say I’ve ever seen a fruit tree swazzled, have you?


i've seen a christmas tree schwazzled. didn't turn out too well.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 15, 2022)

Regardless if you are taking leafs off or branches that carries leafs not navi shoes on them, the plant will act to defend itself and bulk up on the trunk and the remaining branches and produce more leafs. This is also like topping. MJ plants are just plants not something new to nature. Maybe the only plants you know are MJs.


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## bk78 (Mar 15, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> Regardless if you are taking leafs off or branches that carries leafs not navi shoes on them, the plant will act to defend itself and bulk up on the trunk and the remaining branches and produce more leafs. This is also like topping. MJ plants are just plants not something new to nature. Maybe the only plants you know are MJs.


Where are you getting this data from?


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 15, 2022)

bk78 said:


> I can’t say I’ve ever seen a fruit tree swazzled, have you?


My plum tree self-swazzles in late-fall.


Haitham600 said:


> Regardless if you are taking leafs off or branches that carries leafs not navi shoes on them, the plant will act to defend itself and bulk up on the trunk and the remaining branches and produce more leafs.


I think what you mean is that if you strip a plant's leaves it will enter restorative survival mode, and regrow lost mass, albeit at a loss of overall productivity. Yep sounds about right to me.


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## Hobbes (Mar 17, 2022)

.

4 plants before selective swazzee:



.

I snipped any leaf with a petiole but it left a lot of Larfy undergrowth,



.

The control and the lollipop,: (in the back)



.



.



.

Notice something missing from this picture:




No carbon filter. My AirROS gizmo takes care of powdery mildew and odor.

.


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## Billy the Mountain (Mar 17, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> 4 plants before selective swazzee:
> 
> ...


Cool
They're great for disinfecting the air but how well does it work for smell?

How much, roughly, do those go for?
Prices are by request on their website


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## Haitham600 (Mar 17, 2022)

The leafs look yellowish and droopy. Maybe you need some nitrogen. So for swazzee you are supposed to do it on 1st day and on the 20th day of flowering time perior. I am assuming you started flowering cycle now?


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## Haitham600 (Mar 17, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Where are you getting this data from?


I plant and grew crops for many years. I don't need to find an article or google about plants.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 17, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> I plant and grew crops for many years. I don't need to find an article or google about plants.


Bk gas 4 plants and a data logger and has cropped 5 times bra


Kinda a big deal


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## bk78 (Mar 17, 2022)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> Bk gas 4 plants and a data logger and has cropped 5 times bra
> 
> 
> Kinda a big deal


Sammys our resident spelling bee champion and master grower


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## J232 (Mar 17, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Sammys our resident spelling bee champion and master grower


The guy just logged on and is already thinking about you, posting useless shit. You know this makes you look even dumber @Samwell Seed Well.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 17, 2022)

J232 said:


> The guy just logged on and is already thinking about you, posting useless shit. You know this makes you look even dumber @Samwell Seed Well.


Lol you get notificarions for my logins, thays cute...

If you want to charge up JO crystals just hit the DMs slim


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 17, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Sammys our resident spelling bee champion and master grower


Ah red pen diarys has a new mascot, did you write about it in your journal agian sweety


Ill wait you can log me an entry later...my poor grammar is shamefil, ive def been bad.


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## Hobbes (Mar 18, 2022)

Billy the Mountain said:


> Cool
> They're great for disinfecting the air but how well does it work for smell?
> 
> How much, roughly, do those go for?
> Prices are by request on their website


.

The AirROS eliminates smell, I haven't noticed any since I bought the gizmo.

Mine cost $3,000 USD (smallest unit) which sounds expensive but compared to a powdery mildew outbreak it's cheap. I didn't try to bargin, you may save a few dollars by making them an offer.

Worth the money.

.


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## Hobbes (Mar 18, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> The leafs look yellowish and droopy. Maybe you need some nitrogen. So for swazzee you are supposed to do it on 1st day and on the 20th day of flowering time perior. I am assuming you started flowering cycle now?


.

I agree. I've been adding 5 ml nitrogen per gallon of water but still getting yellowing.

First and 20th day of flower, Today I'm in the middle of a 60 hour dark period for the start of flower. I picked up the 60 hour dark period from breeder Dr Greenthumb, who says that it induces flower quicker than without.

.


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## bk78 (Mar 18, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> 4 plants before selective swazzee:
> 
> ...


The plants should be in good health flipping to flower for a “trial” like this imo. Doesn’t give much merit seeing the control plant, and lolipop plant in poor health and the 2 swizzled plants in better health. Not trying to be a dick either, just pointing out the obvious.


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## Hobbes (Mar 18, 2022)

bk78 said:


> The plants should be in good health flipping to flower for a “trial” like this imo. Doesn’t give much merit seeing the control plant, and lolipop plant in poor health and the 2 swizzled plants in better health. Not trying to be a dick either, just pointing out the obvious.


.

Agreed, in a perfect test the plants should look like perfect healthy clones. 

The only remedy would be to prune all of the damaged leaves from the control and lollipop the have the undergrowth grow out into healthy leaves like the two swazzee clones., Which would ruin the test as well.

I`ll grow them out as planned, maybe something will come up.

.


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## Hobbes (Mar 20, 2022)

Billy the Mountain said:


> Cool
> They're great for disinfecting the air but how well does it work for smell?
> 
> How much, roughly, do those go for?
> Prices are by request on their website


.

Mine completely eliminates smell.

I was charged $3,000 USD but if you ask for a discount you may get one.

Enjoy peace of mind!

.


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## keifcake (Mar 20, 2022)

Over the last couple of months I've started defoliating, at first I removed very little, but recently I've been removing many leaves at a time, not complete defoliation (fans getting good light and not shading out the center or other buds), and also not on a set interval like day 1 or 20, but when I notice new fans have obstructed the interior or completely shading out side shoots which can be every 3 days, and i have to say I'm really liking growth a lot. 

This is being done on some clones I've flowered and harvested at least twice so far. 

I've gotten pretty deep into gardening over the years, and I general plants do better with environmental stressers, like cows grazing grass improves growth, and it seems to reason with our limited light penetration from even the best of lights, that the combination of controlled stress from defoliation and the increased light reaching all the buds sites that you'll get better growth, and better doesn't necessarily mean more yield, but better medicine overall


----------



## Hobbes (Mar 20, 2022)

.

After 60 hours of darkness my leaves are perking up, which leads me to believe that either :I had my new light turned up to 80% and left on for 24 hours a day for a week and my young leaves weren't ready for the intensity; or I had my airros turned up too high.



.

The control plant. I haven't even been picking the dead leaves off, just letting them fall on their own. What do you think - continue letting them fall or pick them off to get air flow?



.

This is the clone that will be swazzeed twice, already good leaf growth.



.


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## Fardsnarp (Mar 20, 2022)

I'd at least pluck the leaves hitting the soil.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 20, 2022)

$3k for an air cleaner in a 4x4 tent? Why ffs?


----------



## lusidghost (Mar 20, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> $3k for an air cleaner in a 4x4 tent? Why ffs?


Those things supposedly work really well though. @DoubleAtotheRON speaks very highly of them.


----------



## DoubleAtotheRON (Mar 20, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> Those things supposedly work really well though. @DoubleAtotheRON speaks very highly of them.


In a 20x30, yes.. they work great, and is worth the money if this is what you do for a living. However, I would not spend that much on a tent grow. I would just drop off the VPD chart towards the end and keep the RH down. But hey, If it makes you feel better and you got that $ burning a hole in your pocket, then go for it. It'll prob clean your house's air too.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 20, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> Those things supposedly work really well though. @DoubleAtotheRON speaks very highly of them.


Sure, for a larger sized operation maybe. IMO, focusing on plant health and air circulation would go much further in preventing PM than a fancy filter.


----------



## xtsho (Mar 20, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> 4 plants before selective swazzee:
> 
> ...


It looks like you defoliated the two healthiest looking ones. The leaves on those plants are pretty yellow. You really need 4 healthy plants for a side by side like this..


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## lusidghost (Mar 20, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Sure, for a larger sized operation maybe. IMO, focusing on plant health and air circulation would go much further in preventing PM than a fancy filter.


Yeah. I've never had PM, and defoliating should help prevent it as well. I just heard they were pretty remarkable machines.


----------



## xtsho (Mar 20, 2022)

keifcake said:


> Over the last couple of months I've started defoliating, at first I removed very little, but recently I've been removing many leaves at a time, not complete defoliation (fans getting good light and not shading out the center or other buds), and also not on a set interval like day 1 or 20, but when I notice new fans have obstructed the interior or completely shading out side shoots which can be every 3 days, and i have to say I'm really liking growth a lot.
> 
> This is being done on some clones I've flowered and harvested at least twice so far.
> 
> I've gotten pretty deep into gardening over the years, and I general plants do better with environmental stressers, like cows grazing grass improves growth, and it seems to reason with our limited light penetration from even the best of lights, that the combination of controlled stress from defoliation and the increased light reaching all the buds sites that you'll get better growth, and better doesn't necessarily mean more yield, but better medicine overall


The reason cows grazing might improve growth is because they're fertilizing while they're eating and then moved to other locations before they eat all the grass. Goats will destroy a field. People use them for brush control and clearing land. Ain't no grass growing back better after goats get done with it.


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## lusidghost (Mar 20, 2022)

I'm going for the complete opposite experiment this time and not defoliating or topping my plants. I went full schwazz last time. My walk away was it would work pretty well if you had a high plant count similar to a sea of green. Aside from a plant here and there, I have always defoliated from "somewhat" to "full on scorched earth." I want to see what happens when I just let them do their thing this time.


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## DoubleAtotheRON (Mar 20, 2022)

lusidghost said:


> I'm going for the complete opposite experiment this time and not defoliating or topping my plants. I went full schwazz last time. My walk away was it would work pretty well if you had a high plant count similar to a sea of green. Aside from a plant here and there, I have always defoliated from "somewhat" to "full on scorched earth." I want to see what happens when I just let them do their thing this time.


I love some experimentation!


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## Haitham600 (Mar 20, 2022)

The yellow leafs should be kept alone. It is a natural process that the plant move the metabolism products into lowera and older leafs to discard them. Once the leaf is pointing down, it is not recieving anything, you should remove it, but yellowish that is still standing should remain to mimic natural process.


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## amneziaHaze (Mar 21, 2022)

Yea but those yellow fuckers are the first to bring mold. I would remove them we can say a strong wind was blowing haha


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## Hobbes (Mar 21, 2022)

xtsho said:


> It looks like you defoliated the two healthiest looking ones. The leaves on those plants are pretty yellow. You really need 4 healthy plants for a side by side like this..


.

If I defoliated the control and the lollipop they would have the same healthy green undergrowth that the two swazzeed clones do.

The 4 clones looked about the same before defoliation. 

.



.

The control and the lollipop were the two tallest plants in the tent.

.



.

Its a delemma - swazee the two bushy plants and get a good harvest or leave them and hope for some decent data.

.


----------



## Hobbes (Mar 21, 2022)

amneziaHaze said:


> Yea but those yellow fuckers are the first to bring mold. I would remove them we can say a strong wind was blowing haha


.

Good thinking, simulated wind to blow off the dead leaves. ILL leave the yellows though.

.


----------



## Haitham600 (Mar 21, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Good thinking, simulated wind to blow off the dead leaves. ILL leave the yellows though.
> 
> .


Exactly, just as the wind act on a plant. I usually just touch the base of the leaf, if it is ready to fly away, it will come off. Otherwise I leave it.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 21, 2022)

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't removing yellow leaves from unhealthy plants vs leaving them, a different experiment from defoliating healthy plants vs letting them bush out? 

Once leaves are no longer green, they are no longer a source of energy for the plant, they become what's often referred to as a "sink" (meaning it's taking energy from the plant. It does actually require energy from the plant in order to break them down to a point where they will drop. That's what we want to keep the leaves on cannabis plants green well into the flowering period.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 21, 2022)

Not sure abou


PJ Diaz said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't removing yellow leaves from unhealthy plants vs leaving them, a different experiment from defoliating healthy plants vs letting them bush out?
> 
> Once leaves are no longer green, they are no longer a source of energy for the plant, they become what's often referred to as a "sink" (meaning it's taking energy from the plant. It does actually require energy from the plant in order to break them down to a point where they will drop. That's what we want to keep the leaves on cannabis plants green well into the flowering period.


Not sure about taking energy. What you are referring to is more related to trees shedding leaves in fall. The yellowing of the leafs while vegetation or during flowering of our famous plant here is more like a type of excretion the plant is doing to get rid of metabolism undesirable products and it is completely normal. That's why you should leave the leaf on the plant until it is ready to come off. It's like going to the bathroom for animals. In fact if you rush taking leafs of as soon as they start loosing the lush green color, other leafs will start getting yellow sooner. Remeber the plants don't have a.hole and want to discard these non-gaseous products. https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/how-do-plants-excrete.html


----------



## PJ Diaz (Mar 21, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> Not sure abou
> 
> Not sure about taking energy. What you are referring to is more related to trees shedding leaves in fall. The yellowing of the leafs while vegetation or during flowering of our famous plant here is more like a type of excretion the plant is doing to get rid of metabolism undesirable products and it is completely normal. That's why you should leave the leaf on the plant until it is ready to come off. It's like going to the bathroom for animals. In fact if you rush taking leafs of as soon as they start loosing the lush green color, other leafs will start getting yellow sooner. Remeber the plants don't have a.hole and want to discard these non-gaseous products. https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/how-do-plants-excrete.html


So, are you saying that you believe that yellow leaves are a source of energy of the plant? You do realize that it requires energy for the metabolic functions to break down the leaves and drop, right?


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## Haitham600 (Mar 21, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> So, are you saying that you believe that yellow leaves are a source of energy of the plant? You do realize that it requires energy for the metabolic functions to break down the leaves and drop, right?


I was under the impression that you did not pay attention to your teachers in elementary, but you proved me wrong. Now I know you are so high that you can't read nor write with cohesiveness


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 21, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> I was under the impression that you did not pay attention to your teachers in elementary, but you proved me wrong. Now I know you are so high that you can't read nor write with cohesiveness


Oh snap, zing! You really got me there didn't you! Obviously you smart, me dumb. Me know nothing.

Please tell us more about how to do it right, and show us your plants! We all want to see how geniuses like you do it!


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## Haitham600 (Mar 22, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> Oh snap, zing! You really got me there didn't you! Obviously you smart, me dumb. Me know nothing.
> 
> Please tell us more about how to do it right, and show us your plants! We all want to see how geniuses like you do it!


Waiting on my seeds to arrive from England while being interested in this experiment. No genius. Apologize for my earlier comments. I was aiming to have some fun with you guys and interested to know what is the latest about plants discoveries which I thought was a science already nailed down. Obviously not.


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## jimihendrix1 (Mar 22, 2022)

Id get rid of yellow leaves. They can be a source of mold.

Yellow leaves are not a good sign. Its usually a sign of some kind of stress, or not enough nitrogen, or even Magnesium.. Or lack of enough nutrients in general Ive seen 10 foot tall plants with not one yellow leaf. Its not a natural process until the very very late stages of flowering to see some yellow leaves.

To me, in the bottom photo, the 2 plants on the top look hungry, or theres a PH problem. The plants also appear to be pale.

In the top photo the plants are yellowing from the bottom up, which is often a sign of lack of Nitrogen.

There's way to many yellow leaves.


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## Budzbuddha (Mar 22, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> Not sure abou
> 
> Not sure about taking energy. What you are referring to is more related to trees shedding leaves in fall. The yellowing of the leafs while vegetation or during flowering of our famous plant here is more like a type of excretion the plant is doing to get rid of metabolism undesirable products and it is completely normal. That's why you should leave the leaf on the plant until it is ready to come off. It's like going to the bathroom for animals. In fact if you rush taking leafs of as soon as they start loosing the lush green color, other leafs will start getting yellow sooner. Remeber the plants don't have a.hole and want to discard these non-gaseous products. https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/how-do-plants-excrete.html


YIPEE ….. GOOGLE SCIENCE !

*facepalm


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## jimihendrix1 (Mar 22, 2022)

I dont see 1 yellow leaf. All nice and healthy, and GREEN.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 22, 2022)

jimihendrix1 said:


> I dont see 1 yellow leaf. All nice and healthy, and GREEN.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How many kilos a Plant like this would give?


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## lusidghost (Mar 22, 2022)

jimihendrix1 said:


> I dont see 1 yellow leaf. All nice and healthy, and GREEN.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you even harvest that? 15 people with chainsaws?


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## amneziaHaze (Mar 22, 2022)

You can go to harvest with green leafs. Yellow is just a sign or too little or too much.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 23, 2022)

amneziaHaze said:


> You can go to harvest with green leafs. Yellow is just a sign or too little or too much.


We learn


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## amneziaHaze (Mar 23, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Good thinking, simulated wind to blow off the dead leaves. ILL leave the yellows though.
> 
> .


yea for the experiment leave it all just check on it for mold i guess. i keep thinking about this as a grow and not an experiment.


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## DoobieDoobs (Mar 23, 2022)

I thought leaves dying on the bottom of the plant meant that the plant was moving around her nutrients to more useful branches, or something like that.


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## amneziaHaze (Mar 23, 2022)

DoobieDoobs said:


> I thought leaves dying on the bottom of the plant meant that the plant was moving around her nutrients to more useful branches, or something like that.


that is true. but only because there is not enough nutriends around the roots. maybe its too dry maybe you didnt water with nutrients enough


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## DoobieDoobs (Mar 23, 2022)

By the way, I have my bets on the lollipoped only plant. 

edit: how much will you defoliate? like a few leaves for air and light penetration, or strip them naked?


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## amneziaHaze (Mar 23, 2022)

I think non stripped will give the most but pain in the ass to trim the tiny lower buds


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## Haitham600 (Mar 26, 2022)

I did a small research on the AirROS you have, and I think it is harming the plants. You should turn it on no more than 2 hrs a day, preferably at night time.


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## Hobbes (Mar 26, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> I did a small research on the AirROS you have, and I think it is harming the plants. You should turn it on no more than 2 hrs a day, preferably at night time.


.

Thanks HaItham, I turned the AR down to 15% from 75% power. High power on the AR was definitely harming the leaves.

Probably less time per day might help too.

Thanks

.


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## Hobbes (Mar 26, 2022)

DoobieDoobs said:


> By the way, I have my bets on the lollipoped only plant.
> 
> edit: how much will you defoliate? like a few leaves for air and light penetration, or strip them naked?



The lollipoped plant was only defoliated to the sucker leaf level. I'm stripping them of leaves as much as possible, but there were many baby leaves with few pistole.

.

The to non-defoliated plants are the two tallest of the 4 clones.

.


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## Haitham600 (Mar 26, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> Thanks HaItham, I turned the AR down to 15% from 75% power. High power on the AR was definitely harming the leaves.
> 
> ...


It generates lots of oxygen reactive ions which not only kills germs by killing DNA also can hurt the plants DNA as well as humans. 1 or 2 hrs aday should be enough for killing the germs and fungi. Put it on a timer. Plus the size of that thing is suitable for large growing area, for a tent it is over kill. During day, your plants need co2, oxygen at night.


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## Hobbes (Mar 26, 2022)

Haitham600 said:


> Put it on a timer. Plus the size of that thing is suitable for large growing area, for a tent it is over kill.


.

Never thought of a timer, thanks!

This is the smallest unit they had, good for several thousand cubic feet, where my tent is only 100 cubic feet.

.


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## Hobbes (Apr 23, 2022)

.

The two swaazeed plants are staying a couple of inches shorter than their counter parts.

The two natural plants as well as being taller the colas are a little thicker.

.



The plant in the front left is the 2 x defoliated plant and in the front right the plant that hasn't been touched.

.



.

I think the two swazzeed plants will come out with the higher weight,, but I don't know if the difference will be enough to have definitive results.

How much more should a plant weigh to make that style of growing the winner?

.


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## PJ Diaz (Apr 23, 2022)

If you can't keep the leaves green, how do you expect to have any comparative results?


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## DoobieDoobs (Apr 24, 2022)

PJ Diaz said:


> If you can't keep the leaves green, how do you expect to have any comparative results?


hey, if they all have a similar amount of yellow, the test stands!


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## Star Dog (Apr 24, 2022)

All being equal I'll accept the results.


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## Star Dog (Apr 24, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> How much more should a plant weigh to make that style of growing the winner?


I would say whichever has the best weight of quality buds, gross weight isn't much use if 40% is larf. 

I'd like to see how much the humidity changes after defoliating a full grow room/tent that would be helpful and could make the difference to me.


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## Hobbes (May 18, 2022)

.

I haven't been keeping up with posting so I've got a couple pics a few weeks into flower and some about a week from harvest:



,

The plant on front right is the control plant - no defoliation; the plant on the rear left is only lollipopped; The rear right defoliated once and the front left defoliated twice.

The non defoliated plants grew 2 or 3" taller than the defoliated clones.



.

A lot of crisp leaves but I'm pretty sure I'm going to have a bigger harvest than last grow - 400 grams. The only differences between my first grow of Serious Happiness with this second grow of clones is the new Scorpion Diablo light over my old Black Dog lamp.



.



.



,



.


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## DoubleAtotheRON (May 18, 2022)

Great thread man!... I love experiments.


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## Hobbes (May 29, 2022)

.

This is the control plant, no defoliation.



.

Unfortunately the dense foliage blocked the light from the lower branches. Just sticks.



.

A full 12" tray from plant 1, lots of larf 6" into the canopy.



.

Plant 2, lollipop only.



.



.

About the same harvest as the first plant.



.

Plant 3, 1 defoliation. lollipop



.



.



.

The harvest was more dense than the previous 2, may weigh a bit more.



.



.


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## Hobbes (May 29, 2022)

.

Plant 4 was defoliated twice, once on day 1 of flower and once on day 20.



.

I'm still clipping plant 4, I'll be ready to dry it tomorrow.



.



.



.

Another week and the buds will be dry enough (62% RH) to weigh.

Weighing will be the ultimate test but I have some observations from triming the past few days. Although all three plants have a similar volume, the bud from the defoliated plants is denser.

.


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## Hobbes (May 30, 2022)

.

One thing I've found through this trial is that direct light on the buds is most important for getting hard buds right to the bottom of the plant.

.



.

If you've got any type of canopy density the yield at the bottom of the plant is near useless. Lollypop for sure.

.



.


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## Hobbes (Jun 8, 2022)

.

All 4 cans of bud, 1 gallon can per plant, have balanced at 62% RH so its time to see who was right with their predictions.

.



.

Clone 1 = 140 grams

Clone 1 had no defoliation and lots of larf low in the canopy.

.

clone 2 = 142 grams

This plant was lollipop but only had a minor variance in weight.

.

Clone 3 = 138 grams
I was hoping for 160-180 grams from this one but it was my lowest weight. Lollipop and swchaze.

.

Clone 4 = 149 grams
The heaviest plant by a hair. Lollipop and 2 swchaze.

.

I think that we can say that defoliation does't add weight but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm comfortable with the method.

.


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## Hobbes (Jun 8, 2022)

.

The first Time I grew this strain I was using a black dog lamp and got 405 grams for all 4 plants.

This time, every thing the same except the light, I grew 569 grams, 164 grams more, An increase in harvest of 40%.

The BD had only 7 grows on it, it shouldn't have gone dim already.

Hat's off to the HGL Scorpion Diablo!

.


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## Horselover fat (Jun 8, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> .
> 
> All 4 cans of bud, 1 gallon can per plant, have balanced at 62% RH so its time to see who was right with their predictions.
> 
> ...


Surprisingly uniform yields. Slight differences in trim and sticks could account for the differences.


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## Hobbes (Jun 9, 2022)

Horselover fat said:


> Surprisingly uniform yields. Slight differences in trim and sticks could account for the differences.


.

I'm surprised that the weights were so close together too.

Looking back on my trimming I think the defoliated plants had denser bud and the non-defoliated plants were a couple of inches tall but larf 4 or 5 inches into the canopy.

.


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## GrodanLightfoot (Jun 9, 2022)

Defoliate and end up asking "where's the bud?" after the sugar leaves get massive and swallow up the bud sites. 

Just my experience. Buds aren't good at photosynthesis. Leaves are.


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## JustBlazin (Aug 14, 2022)

Saw this article posted at another site and thought some of you would like to take a look at the finding of this side by side. I have a feeling it's going to get a bunch of members on roll it up butt hurt with the findings...rofl








Summary of Cannabis Defoliation Side-by-Side Experiment | Grow Weed Easy


by Nebula Haze The results are in! Have you ever heard of the cannabis flowering stage defoliation technique? It involves strategically removing leaves when the buds are first forming on marijuana plants. The goal is to expose buds to plenty of light and air, which seems to increase overall...




www.growweedeasy.com




Let the excuses of why this is flawed begin...lol


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## Funkentelechy (Aug 21, 2022)

JustBlazin said:


> Saw this article posted at another site and thought some of you would like to take a look at the finding of this side by side. I have a feeling it's going to get a bunch of members on roll it up butt hurt with the findings...rofl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I think that there are a huge amount of variables involved in the defoliation vs no defoliation debate. I don't believe that simply removing leaves is helpful to any plant that has plenty of light or more importantly good light penetration, but it could be helpful in situations where light penetration is limited for whatever reason.

Take a look at how close together the plants are growing in the side-by-side linked above, there is very little to no light getting beyond the canopy of the budding plants pictured in that trail. I would never grow my plants that close together and I don't know that most people would, so it doesn't actually surprise me that they came up with those results. The light penetration in a setup like that is shit you would have to remove leaves if you want light to get beyond the first few inches. 
So if you grow in a similar way as in that side-by-side trial as far as spacing then defoliation could be a helpful tool to achieve the light penetration levels required to grow weed well. But if you grow with more spacing and plenty light penetration then defoliation is not helpful in my opinion, I think it all comes down to your particular growing method. Indoor vs outdoor is a big variable in this discussion as well, as it has to do with light penetration. Indoor lighting quantity/penetration changes drastically based on the distance from the light, whereas outdoor this is not the case at all.

So in conclusion sometimes defoliation can be helpful and sometimes you wont see a benefit depending on how you are growing, sometimes it can be harmful. It all depends on how, where, when, and why you apply defoliation.
People have a need to simplify things into being categorically good or bad but most good things in life actually fit into the as-needed category. Often times defoliation is not needed, but for some it could be.


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## Funkentelechy (Aug 21, 2022)

Thanks to the OP for taking the time to conduct this side by side and posting the results for us.


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## JustBlazin (Aug 21, 2022)

Funkentelechy said:


> I think that there are a huge amount of variables involved in the defoliation vs no defoliation debate. I don't believe that simply removing leaves is helpful to any plant that has plenty of light or more importantly good light penetration, but it could be helpful in situations where light penetration is limited for whatever reason.
> 
> Take a look at how close together the plants are growing in the side-by-side linked above, there is very little to no light getting beyond the canopy of the budding plants pictured in that trail. I would never grow my plants that close together and I don't know that most people would, so it doesn't actually surprise me that they came up with those results. The light penetration in a setup like that is shit you would have to remove leaves if you want light to get beyond the first few inches.
> So if you grow in a similar way as in that side-by-side trial as far as spacing then defoliation could be a helpful tool to achieve the light penetration levels required to grow weed well. But if you grow with more spacing and plenty light penetration then defoliation is not helpful in my opinion, I think it all comes down to your particular growing method. Indoor vs outdoor is a big variable in this discussion as well, as it has to do with light penetration. Indoor lighting quantity/penetration changes drastically based on the distance from the light, whereas outdoor this is not the case at all.
> ...


Pretty sure they stated some of what you said in the article. 
That it's not for evey situation and outdoor has no limit on light penetration.


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## Bus Stop Rat Bag (Sep 22, 2022)

Thank you for conducting this comparison and sharing it.


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## Rurumo (Sep 22, 2022)

When I find a new cut that I like, I like to push at least one clone with extreme defoliation to see the full range of how that specific cut reacts to it. Some plants get stunted horribly from extreme defol, while it triggers greatly increased growth in other genotypes. Each specific cut reacts to it differently. I also think it can be useful to stress plants a bit when picking keepers.


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## Bus Stop Rat Bag (Sep 22, 2022)

@Rurumo sorry I forgot to quote you

That seems like useful insight, thank you. I am not a grower of long experience, on my second grow and outdoor. I have done some defol both grows, extreme and moderate. I originally began with the goal of bigger buds of course, but if I don't get that I do feel I get improved light penetration and air flow. Secondary to that, here in the run-up to harvest I can see better when looking for signs of trouble and won't have as much to trim at harvest.

If you know of photo strains that have phenos that respond well to aggressive defol, is there any way you might share some of that info ? Next year I'm wanting to grow Shogun and Holy Grail.


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## TaoRich (Oct 9, 2022)

Rurumo said:


> I've always noticed strong growth following some defoliation


I never understood why plants grew more vigorously after pruning.
Just 'regular' plants when I was reluctantly dragged out to do garden work as a kid.

It took me 25 year's to work out an explanation for myself, and that epiphany came from my fist weed grow.

Here's my theory:

Imagine the plant as a factory.
The roots are the raw materials arrivals input section.
The plant branches and leaves are the manufacturing production line.
The fruit and flowers are the output produced goods.

Now, for example, let's chop off one lower branch.

The factory now has one less production line running.
The factory still has the same amount of input material arriving.

So my logic is that the remaining production lines have to speed up to process the undiminished inputs from the existing root system. Hence we observe 'stimulated' growth.


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## TaoRich (Oct 9, 2022)

TaoRich said:


> So my logic is that the remaining production lines have to speed up to process the undiminished inputs from the existing root system. Hence we observe 'stimulated' growth.


*Not *claiming more yield.

Same yield from same input, just distributed differently.


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## Rurumo (Oct 9, 2022)

TaoRich said:


> I never understood why plants grew more vigorously after pruning.
> Just 'regular' plants when I was reluctantly dragged out to do garden work as a kid.
> 
> It took me 25 year's to work out an explanation for myself, and that epiphany came from my fist weed grow.
> ...


Overcompensation has been a major topic of study for decades, this might interest you https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6850278/


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