# Temp THC burns, decarbs, and bonds?



## Gamberro (Jan 31, 2008)

I used to have these memorized but I'm starting a new cooking project today, and can't remember the exact temperatures at which THC:
1) is vaporized
2) bonds to fat molecules
3) decarboxylates
If any one could remind me, I'd really appreciate it.


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## Gamberro (Jan 31, 2008)

The mixed lingo between potheads and chemists and pothead-chemists make researching this WAY harder than it really ought to be. Funny, I remember it being pretty easy...
So far, I've got
1) 355-392F
2) ?
3) 222F-(?)
Please help fill in the blanks; I'll have all the ingredients by tonight and I'd like to be prepared by this evening, so I can sell samples at a party tomorrow.


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## Gamberro (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks for nothing jah. Just playin, but I got all the info I needed. I felt a bit stupid for forgetting it, but people are usually impressed when I retain any information whatsoever. For aspiring THC chefs, here are the stats, all in Farenheit:
222/+: Decarboxylation (Carboxyl groups removed, making weed more potent. I recommend 225 for up to half an hour in an oven, to avoid burning.)
325-355: THC bonds to fat molecules
355-392: THC "boils" (vaporizes; avoid this temperature)


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## GoodbyeFreedom (Jul 21, 2008)

Gamberro said:


> Thanks for nothing jah. Just playin, but I got all the info I needed. I felt a bit stupid for forgetting it, but people are usually impressed when I retain any information whatsoever. For aspiring THC chefs, here are the stats, all in Farenheit:
> 222/+: Decarboxylation (Carboxyl groups removed, making weed more potent. I recommend 225 for up to half an hour in an oven, to avoid burning.)
> 325-355: THC bonds to fat molecules
> 355-392: THC &quot;boils&quot; (vaporizes; avoid this temperature)


Medicated... so bear with me...

So if i put a but in the oven at 225 for 30 mins.... ill get superstoned? lmao


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## Gamberro (Nov 16, 2008)

GoodbyeFreedom said:


> Medicated... so bear with me...
> 
> So if i put a but in the oven at 225 for 30 mins.... ill get superstoned? lmao


Hahaha! Believe it or not, I've been told that, yes, decarboxylation does improve the high when smoked. The science behind that is shaky at best, but there is a large enough number of cooks who will make this claim that I don't feel comfortable to simply dismiss it with my offhand.


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## mikejuwanna (Dec 23, 2010)

Gamberro said:


> Hahaha! Believe it or not, I've been told that, yes, decarboxylation does improve the high when smoked. The science behind that is shaky at best, but there is a large enough number of cooks who will make this claim that I don't feel comfortable to simply dismiss it with my offhand.


cooks yes, because you have to alter your THC-A into THC before bonding it to fats or even ingesting it. but when you smoke it you already are doing that conversion when you light it up.


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## poplars (Dec 29, 2010)

I think those numbers regarding bonding to fat may be inaccurate... I've heard of it happening at much lower temperatures, as it is oil soluble.... all heat does is speed up solubility and help melt the trichomb heads...

and decarboxylization happens at room temperature and up, the hotter you go the faster it happens..

what temperature THC degrades at would be a more interesting question... rather, does it degrade below or above vaporizing temp... if below, then you gotta be careful, if above, then you h ave nothing to worry about as long as you're staying below the vaporizing temp...


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## Matt Rize (Sep 16, 2011)

great thread, big bump.


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## gioua (Sep 16, 2011)

mikejuwanna said:


> cooks yes, because you have to alter your THC-A into THC before bonding it to fats or even ingesting it. but when you smoke it you already are doing that conversion when you light it up.




bingo... the same reason some recipes dont call for decarbing before you add it to the recipe it will get decarbed later


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## ipwnemos (Feb 3, 2012)

don't heat your weed in an oven at 225F for any amount of time. at 215F thc will combust in the presence of oxygen. This is slow but, when warming up a vaporizer, it is not a bad place to start. 

decarboxylation does not require any specific heat to occur. heat is only catalytic in the process. When thc decarboxylates, that means it is released from the carbon molecules(marijuana flower) and bonds, typically, to free-floating oxygen molecules. In other words, decarboxylating will reduce the potency of your weed.

When vaporizing start at 180F until then your finally get a fat cloud upon exhaling. This may take up to 15 minutes. raise up to 400F at regular intervals. Be sure to wait for the smoke to build back up in the chamber before going back at it.

when cooking, the range you are looking for is between 186F and 215F. When using most oils (I use olive oil and I know that this is the case) raising the temperature above 215F will have a toxic affect on your oil. Irreversible denaturation occurs and even more so thc will start to release into the atmosphere.


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## Californicater (Feb 12, 2012)

I was wondering how one would bake @ 350 and not vaporize the THC. My friends gf made brownies and there was nothing special about them. I knew I was right when I told her she baked away the THC.


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## YoungAndAmbitious (Feb 15, 2012)

Californicater said:


> I was wondering how one would bake @ 350 and not vaporize the THC. My friends gf made brownies and there was nothing special about them. I knew I was right when I told her she baked away the THC.


yea you would never want to cook at 350, you want to heat the THC to the point of decarboxylation which I've read is anywhere between 165F-220F. Anything above that and the THC will evaporate right out and you will lose potency. The lower the temp and the longer you cook it the better results. I cooked an eighth of hash into 8 brownies at around 200F for 6 hours and the high from one brownie was extremely intense. I gave one to a friend who is an experienced smoker and he threw up, didnt say anything for an hour and even forgot who i was. Edibles done right will be noticeably potent, depending on the dosage that is.


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## ResidualFreedom (Feb 19, 2012)

YoungAndAmbitious said:


> yea you would never want to cook at 350, you want to heat the THC to the point of decarboxylation which I've read is anywhere between 165F-220F. Anything above that and the THC will evaporate right out and you will lose potency. The lower the temp and the longer you cook it the better results. I cooked an eighth of hash into 8 brownies at around 200F for 6 hours and the high from one brownie was extremely intense. I gave one to a friend who is an experienced smoker and he threw up, didnt say anything for an hour and even forgot who i was. Edibles done right will be noticeably potent, depending on the dosage that is.


so based on this, you are saying that when we bake cookies or brownies we r "burning" away most of the potency? how would you suggest altering cooking times to allow the lower temps? ie. cookies that should be cooked at 350 for 10-15 min... reduce temps to 250 and cook for a half hour maybe?

Thanks in advance..


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## fonzirelli (Jun 13, 2012)

thc's boiling point is 315F. but at the decarb point, that is when the thc evaporates from the bud? im tryin to figure out the lowest temp to evaporate the thc.


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## WaxxyNuggets (Jun 13, 2012)

YoungAndAmbitious said:


> yea you would never want to cook at 350, you want to heat the THC to the point of decarboxylation which I've read is anywhere between 165F-220F. Anything above that and the THC will evaporate right out and you will lose potency. The lower the temp and the longer you cook it the better results. I cooked an eighth of hash into 8 brownies at around 200F for 6 hours and the high from one brownie was extremely intense. I gave one to a friend who is an experienced smoker and he threw up, didnt say anything for an hour and even forgot who i was. Edibles done right will be noticeably potent, depending on the dosage that is.


Your telling me the brownie mixture is getting to 350 degrees before it gets pulled out of the oven??? I find that extremely hard to believe.


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## cannabineer (Jun 13, 2012)

fonzirelli said:


> thc's boiling point is 315F. but at the decarb point, that is when the thc evaporates from the bud? im tryin to figure out the lowest temp to evaporate the thc.


The only way to boil THC at 315ºF would be in a very hard vacuum. I have distilled THC at 0.1mmHg, and it took 220-240ºC or north of 400ºF. Under that vacuum.

ten minutes at 110ºC will decarb THCA to THC. Smoking or vaping have high heat steps built in, and decarb proceeds. i would consider "decarbing weed for smoking boosts the high" to be an old wives' tale. One old campaigner's experience and opinion. cn


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## cannabineer (Jun 13, 2012)

WaxxyNuggets said:


> Your telling me the brownie mixture is getting to 350 degrees before it gets pulled out of the oven??? I find that extremely hard to believe.


Since the center of the brownie should be moist, it doesn't even approach boiling. For brownies, using a heat-treated product like cannabutter makes sense. cn


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## BluJayz (May 22, 2013)

*HI all,* 
I hate to dredge up something from the depths but after scouring google for two days I decided this is the closest I can get to uncovering what duration is required to bind THC to fat molecules.
Maybe someone knows now, a few years later? LOL

I can respond on the baking brownies at 350F. Its not an issue if you used a high fat to extract your THC. The THC is protected in the fat during cooking; some may be released but then trapped in the other materials inside. 
(If your paranoid put tin fol over the brownies and create an airtight lid to trap escaping molecules. Be sure to let it cool before removing.) 

*Second a few interesting facts around the above comments:*

H20 boils at 212F
Coconut Oil burns (Smokes) at 280F (best oil to use)
THC boils off at 392F
at 222F decarboxylation becomes rapid
212F for several hours turn THC to CBN
decarboxylation is best when you titerate from 212F - 302
212F for 90min will strip the carboxyl of THC
Lecithin added to your oil makes the THC absorb in your system better/faster
chlorophyll and Terpenes are H20 soluble 


That being said, i'm still very interested in what duration is required to bind THC to fat molecules.

Assuming you decarboxylase the meds in the oven below 392F. (Length of time not necessary for this exercise.)
You have now activated the THC without burning it off. Now to bind it to a fat, say coconut oil. 
Coconut oil starts to smoke and will release THC at 280F; so idealistically we stay below that. 
However we know that cooked meds at temperature of 212+ for several hours will turn THC to CBN. (Not ideal if we want the High)
At this point your flying blind without knowing what temperature THC binds to fat molecules......

Not satisfactory for someone who medicates to get from day to day. 

Any nerds or chemists?


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## Gamberro (May 24, 2013)

Here is my process, which took me a few years to get to the point where I felt it was "perfect".

Blend the cannabis into a mixture with the same consistency as wheat germ, then spread it out in a thin layer on a strong plate or a baking pan, cook in oven at 225º for twenty minutes. Next, remove from heat, put in the freezer for twenty minutes. Next, mix with solution, which I recommend either extra virgin coconut oil or SUPER-clarified butter (super, super, super clarified), pop that in the oven (if you trust your oven) at 325º as this gives 25º budge before you hit the vaporization point. I personally will then cook for about eighteen hours when doing a large batch (about a quarter pound of flowers or more), or just an hour or two for small personal batches.

Say whatever you want, but this has worked optimally for commercial batches, and I have done a massive amount of sampling to reach these steps as my go-to method.


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## BluJayz (May 25, 2013)

Gamberro said:


> Here is my process, which took me a few years to get to the point where I felt it was "perfect".
> 
> Blend the cannabis into a mixture with the same consistency as wheat germ, then spread it out in a thin layer on a strong plate or a baking pan, cook in oven at 225º for twenty minutes. Next, remove from heat, put in the freezer for twenty minutes. Next, mix with solution, which I recommend either extra virgin coconut oil or SUPER-clarified butter (super, super, super clarified), pop that in the oven (if you trust your oven) at 325º as this gives 25º budge before you hit the vaporization point. I personally will then cook for about eighteen hours when doing a large batch (about a quarter pound of flowers or more), or just an hour or two for small personal batches.
> 
> Say whatever you want, but this has worked optimally for commercial batches, and I have done a massive amount of sampling to reach these steps as my go-to method.


Well I won't knock it but some clarification is needed.

I understand pulverizing the flowers to give more surface area to extract with. I have heard you can lose some of the THC this way but I have no facts and lean neither way. I do grind mine up.

So your decarboxylating the flowers in a pyrex dish at 225 for 20 min. *Is that Fahrenheit?*
Then you put it in the freezer for 20 min. To make the good stuff brittle so it comes off easier like hash. I can dig it. 

Now here is where the detail was absent. 

You bake the oil and the flowers in the pyrex dish in the oven at 325F? For up to eighteen hours in the oven? No covering, stirring anything??


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## Gamberro (May 25, 2013)

Yes, all my temperatures are in Farenheit, we in Canada are kindof hypocrites about our systems of measurement, so as to ensure the Americans don't think we're TOO weird.
I don't cover the pyrex dish because in the case of coconut oil and highly clarified butter, there is little to no water.
I DO take the dish out to stir every hour or so, to ensure the cannaflour as I call it is more or less evenly available to the oil and to ensure the settling of the actual leaf doesn't cause any issues.
As for the bit about pulverizing the flowers, I have always ground my flowers and haven't heard of people doing differently, but I wouldn't at all recommend doing differently. The oil cannot properly infiltrate the flowers if they are solid, it might make sense to compare it to something being fried when it's still frozen, where the outside cooks but the inside remains isolated.
I might also add that twenty minutes in the freezer is a minimum. I generally would put it in there for an hour or two, but of course I don't always have the time.


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## BluJayz (May 26, 2013)

Gamberro said:


> Yes, all my temperatures are in Farenheit, we in Canada are kindof hypocrites about our systems of measurement, so as to ensure the Americans don't think we're TOO weird.
> I don't cover the pyrex dish because in the case of coconut oil and highly clarified butter, there is little to no water.
> I DO take the dish out to stir every hour or so, to ensure the cannaflour as I call it is more or less evenly available to the oil and to ensure the settling of the actual leaf doesn't cause any issues.
> As for the bit about pulverizing the flowers, I have always ground my flowers and haven't heard of people doing differently, but I wouldn't at all recommend doing differently. The oil cannot properly infiltrate the flowers if they are solid, it might make sense to compare it to something being fried when it's still frozen, where the outside cooks but the inside remains isolated.
> I might also add that twenty minutes in the freezer is a minimum. I generally would put it in there for an hour or two, but of course I don't always have the time.


I have more comments and questions as you have provoked early morning thought. 

I would consider adding the freezer to my rotation. However I use a crock pot with a candy thermostat to foster a better environment for my bonding. (more control)

I am curious how you came to the conclusion of 225F for 20min? Personally I would consider that type of decarb to be one to retain more terpenes and flavoids and less THCA transform to THC. (Ill see if i can find some facts on that) 

The MMA reports that 300F for 15min = 70% conversion. (See if I can find the report) 

Also I am curious what steps you take to prevent the oil/fat from smoking and burning the THC off at 315F for any duration. 

Any scientific details would be great.


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## BluJayz (May 30, 2013)

So presumably 252F for 27 min is all you need for 100% conversion.


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## Gamberro (May 31, 2013)

BluJayz said:


> View attachment 2679445
> 
> So presumably 252F for 27 min is all you need for 100% conversion.


Although I may have only anecdotal, experiential evidence to the contrary, I find that to be VERY far off. A long cook is noticeable in the final potency, and 252º is a significantly lower temperature than I would ever recommend.
Crock pots are a more common method it appears by looking at the Internet, however as long as you can trust your oven, the liquid tends to run about 15º below the atmospheric temperature, so I set it to 325º so that it doesn't reach the danger range, which as shown in my original numbers is about 355ºF (the range of vaporization). I ensure that all butter is very highly clarified, but of course my preferred ingredient is extra virgin coconut oil, and I have had no issue with either one burning. I will spend hours clarifying my butter to complete clarity, and the burn point of coconut oil is 350º, almost the exact same temperature as the vaporization point of the cannabis.

My decarb temp is on the lower end because I noticed that dry heat seemed to have a chaotic effect, nowadays I do more like 235º for the decarb, but I find the ganja is more likely to get overdone during the decarboxylization process. One option is to keep it at that low temperature for longer, but over time I have noticed the crispness after 30 minutes of decarboxylation at c. 235ºF doesn't appear to change with continued heating thereafter.

As for that MMA study, I wouldn't be so quick to dispute it as the other study you cited, although it appears theoretical in that it would take time of course to preheat the oil, but also to heat the cannaflour once it's poured in to the solution. I would say that safely 30 minutes of cooking at that temperature does roughly 70% of the job, however when cooking with a quarter pound or more of flowers, you might as well spend some time and a bit of money on heat to cook out that other ~30%. Like I said, for smaller personal batches I don't go through nearly as long a cook.

I _believe_ I've answered all your questions, no? Although perhaps not in perfect order  Hope that helps


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## cannabineer (May 31, 2013)

That chart is for "glass surface, open air' so oxidation effects are pronounced. i obtained complete conversion at 110 Celsius (oil bath temp) after 10-15 minutes (as checked by tlc). I could monitor reaction progress by the foaming of the hot extract. cn


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## poplars (Jun 3, 2013)

cannabineer said:


> That chart is for "glass surface, open air' so oxidation effects are pronounced. i obtained complete conversion at 110 Celsius (oil bath temp) after 10-15 minutes (as checked by tlc). I could monitor reaction progress by the foaming of the hot extract. cn


my experience as well... and had my stuff tested to confirm it is a legit method of decarbing....


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## BluJayz (Jun 3, 2013)

poplars said:


> my experience as well... and had my stuff tested to confirm it is a legit method of decarbing....



The question still remains, if you decarb visually with bubbles in hot bath. How long / how hot do you bond the oil to the flower before straining it and decarbing in hot bath?


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## poplars (Jun 3, 2013)

I just follow skunk pharms oil extraction, 4 hour double boiler cycles, total of 12-14 hours total cook time to be sure you get it all.


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## BluJayz (Jun 9, 2013)

I made two oils last batch and had them tested. 

Batch one I baked the flower at 300F for 7 min or so. Threw it into a crock pot for 18 hours then strained it through a cheese cloth. 
Here are the results. 
View attachment 2692085

Second batch I threw in the crock pot for 18 hours. Strained it in a cheese cloth then put in double boiler for about 27 min while watching the bubbles until they completely stopped. 
Here are the results.


Both came out quite well, I believe that because I waited for all the bubbles to stop I ended up transforming CBD & CBN's at a faster rate and ended up with a little less THC. 

I believe both methods produced similar effects.


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## Gamberro (Jun 10, 2013)

Awesome, thanks for sharing Blu!


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## Gamberro (Jun 10, 2013)

BluJay, did you use the same sample of cannabis for both tests? I ask because of the CBD content, I always assumed there was a difference in CBD content in edibles but never saw a demonstrated difference between the two extraction techniques.


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## Mujahideen (Jul 5, 2013)

Just wanted to say, awesome thread! Y'all have inspired me to read deeper into the "scientific" side of marijuana. I came here to find a rough temp for THC bonding to fat. 
Here I am, 2 hours later, 7 tabs opened and feeling a little boggled with what i've turned up. Who would have known that CBD and CBN ..... exist in this plant, and all contain different medical properties. I am very happy and thankful to have stumbled across this post before beginning. I now have a lot more homework to get back to, I have a feeling all be rewarded for my time. 

Thanks again - Muja


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## BluJayz (Jul 14, 2013)

Gamberro said:


> BluJay, did you use the same sample of cannabis for both tests? I ask because of the CBD content, I always assumed there was a difference in CBD content in edibles but never saw a demonstrated difference between the two extraction techniques.


Both were "similar" samples of flower. The exact mixture is not known, I keep the "fall off" of all buds in the dispensary and those went into the samples. 

So they are of similar mix but not exact. 

In recent trials, I have been able to raise the THC and CBD even more with the same type sample. (CBN went down)


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## george xxx (Jul 22, 2013)

Gamberro said:


> Here is my process, which took me a few years to get to the point where I felt it was "perfect".
> 
> Blend the cannabis into a mixture with the same consistency as wheat germ, then spread it out in a thin layer on a strong plate or a baking pan, cook in oven at 225º for twenty minutes. Next, remove from heat, put in the freezer for twenty minutes. Next, mix with solution, which I recommend either extra virgin coconut oil or SUPER-clarified butter (super, super, super clarified), pop that in the oven (if you trust your oven) at 325º as this gives 25º budge before you hit the vaporization point. I personally will then cook for about eighteen hours when doing a large batch (about a quarter pound of flowers or more), or just an hour or two for small personal batches.
> 
> Say whatever you want, but this has worked optimally for commercial batches, and I have done a massive amount of sampling to reach these steps as my go-to method.



Have you, or anyone, tried coconut oil processed in this manner as a finished product? 
I mean Coconut Oil as the edible to be consumed without any further cooking or adding to baked goods.
I know using the oil for baking or cooking is rather simple but edibles are sometimes difficult with a feeding tube.


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## Mattydread (Dec 2, 2013)

ipwnemos said:


> don't heat your weed in an oven at 225F for any amount of time. at 215F thc will combust in the presence of oxygen. This is slow but, when warming up a vaporizer, it is not a bad place to start.
> 
> decarboxylation does not require any specific heat to occur. heat is only catalytic in the process. When thc decarboxylates, that means it is released from the carbon molecules(marijuana flower) and bonds, typically, to free-floating oxygen molecules. In other words, decarboxylating will reduce the potency of your weed.
> 
> ...


I'm very interested in learning more about minimum temperatures for cooking to decarb cannabis oil. I am aware that decarboxylation happens, very slowly, at room temperature. And for rapid decarboxylation 215F seems about right, though other sources claim slightly higher temps are more optimal (106C/228F seems the most touted temps, with many people claiming higher temps upto a max of 140c/284F). 

The reason I ask is that I was making cannabis oil for my dying fathers terminal cancer, using a rice cooker to boil off Solvent (99.9% Isopropyl alcohol was what I used, which boils at 82.4C/180F) for 4 months believing the rice cooker process was sufficient for decarboxylation. It was psychoactive to eat direct from rice cooker, and I did heat it further using bowls of boiling water to evaporate remaining traces of solvent. But after 4 months it was suggested that decarboxylation may have been incomplete and I was advised to place oil in oven for hour at 110C/230F to make sure decarboxylation was 100% and oil was it's most potent.

What I am desperate to know is, what level of decarboxylation was likely achieved by the rice cooker stage? Does anyone know how long 20 grams of cannabis oil would take to fully decarb at temps as low as 82.4C/180F? Or how much decarboxylation is likely to have been achieved from the rice cooker stage, bearing in mind that it usually took about 3 hours to boil off solvent, with the last of it spending about an hour in the rice cooker at this stage. 

I understand now how to achieve full decarboxylation, and hence maximise potency, but am desperate to gage, best i can, how potent oil was direct from rice cooker. Please, if anyone can help answer these questions, I would be grateful.


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## HeatlessBBQ (Apr 7, 2016)

Thank You for this thread. + rep


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## JointOperation (Apr 7, 2016)

I use 250F until bubbles stop.. .. also.. I eat my edible chocolates with a cup of hot coffee.. seems to really hit you harder.. faster.. and better absorbtion rate all together.


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## HeatlessBBQ (Apr 9, 2016)

http://herb.co/wp-content/cache/page_enhanced/www.thestonerscookbook.com/decarboxylation/_index.html_gzip


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## HeatlessBBQ (Apr 9, 2016)

*Decarboxylation temp* is between 150*F - 245*F ~~~ 
*Prime decarb temp = 240*F for 1 hour in airtight jar*
 [any higher the thca / thc will vaporize and You will lose potency.]
Lower temp = longer time
Higher temp = shorter time 

*THC vaporization / thc loss* temperature is *320*F*


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## HeatlessBBQ (Jan 21, 2017)

Have been experimenting...

H20 boils at 212F
Coconut Oil burns (Smokes) at 280F (best oil to use)
THC boils off at 392F
at 222F decarboxylation becomes rapid so 28 minutes is more than enough
212F for several hours turn THC to CBN <----------
212F for 90min will strip the carboxyl of THC------^
Soy Lecithin added to your oil makes the THC absorb in your system better/faster
chlorophyll and Terpenes are H20 soluble 


Decarboxylate Temp = 240 Degrees F for 28 minutes *<----------------*
*THC LOSS CAN EVEN HAPPEN AT 210+ DEGREES F FOR OVER A FEW HOURS*
*especially in over / crockpot / stove top*


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## esh dov ets (Jan 24, 2017)

There is an old hash recipe that calles for heating compressed kief in cellophane to 140 f to get it to melt and stick together. Then recently i heard 180 f is the temp thc turns molten. So i figure 180 is a good temp to infuse oils.


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## HeatlessBBQ (Jan 24, 2017)

esh dov ets said:


> There is an old hash recipe that calles for heating compressed kief in cellophane to 140 f to get it to melt and stick together. Then recently i heard 180 f is the temp thc turns molten. So i figure 180 is a good temp to infuse oils.


THANK YOU !!!!!!
You just answer this whole entire thread's question... Years later. hahahaha
much love ((( <3 )))


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## YBAdick? (Feb 24, 2018)

ipwnemos said:


> don't heat your weed in an oven at 225F for any amount of time. at 215F thc will combust in the presence of oxygen. This is slow but, when warming up a vaporizer, it is not a bad place to start.
> 
> decarboxylation does not require any specific heat to occur. heat is only catalytic in the process. When thc decarboxylates, that means it is released from the carbon molecules(marijuana flower) and bonds, typically, to free-floating oxygen molecules. In other words, decarboxylating will reduce the potency of your weed.
> 
> ...


All accurate info. We’ll put.


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## Kritkat (Mar 3, 2020)

BluJayz said:


> I made two oils last batch and had them tested.
> 
> Batch one I baked the flower at 300F for 7 min or so. Threw it into a crock pot for 18 hours then strained it through a cheese cloth.
> Here are the results.
> ...





BluJayz said:


> Both were "similar" samples of flower. The exact mixture is not known, I keep the "fall off" of all buds in the dispensary and those went into the samples.
> 
> So they are of similar mix but not exact.
> 
> ...


Many years ago I read something after much research and embarked upon trials and found my best method. The key being in what I read was the time to heat and infuse....22-24 hours... Never over 24 or you'd start to degrade the THC. (This info lodged in my brain and I've never forgotten). It's so long ago I have no idea the complete full research or where I read the info that finally seemed to make the most sense and now wish I could! Because it was tried and true, and strong all while utilizing way less material than other recipes I'd read and ALWAYS was a longer cook time. Anybody doing it faster was certainly wasting more material and needing to ingest more than with mine.

I'd like to see what I read previously and compare and interpolate in trying to adapt and utilize some of the newer information I keep up on reading regarding extraction. I've found myself feeling like lately every time is an experiment again, even though I'm trying to stick to my one method! 
But I used to use water in my crockpot, now sometimes I try not to.... Only to then think it wasn't as good so then next time I'll return to with water again (repeat)...I've started clarifying my butter.... I've started adding lecithin...

I read the new ideas like badkat and as noted in this thread about decarbing first before extraction, the freezing method, etc etc all the different variables.... And then I think about how to incorporate and maybe improve my tried and true. Hence how I've ended up feeling like every time is still a new time because I haven't worked it out quite yet as some info confuses me! And of course I'm a terrible scientist changing too many variables at one time to really isolate

I say all that to postulate about your test results and get feedback on some things I've concluded, and then some questions I still have remaining... And hopefully informative discussion ensue!

I have never decarbed first in an oven.
I believe (and have read other support) decarb can happen during extraction. I know it to be true otherwise my butter would never work... And it always does.

Did you consider for the 2nd batch results that the THC was down and CBN increased because you surpassed the point of conversion of thca to THC that the THC then started to turn to CBN? I would believe you decarbed and extracted/bonded in the 18 hours already. Question would be.... Could it have gone longer and you get more conversion to THC ? That you weren't at 70% yet (the point where THC to CBN dramatically speeds up)? 
Did the additional decarb step post 18 hours heating ensure you went beyond 70% and therefore more rapidly were converting THC to CBN than the remaining THCa was being converted to THC? 

I look at the chart and it supports to me the 22-24 hour cook time because of the lower temperature associated with that amount of time. The gentle steady path of the curve at lower temperatures suggests an equally less drastic curve for when THC starts converting to CBN (as can be seen with those that do show the decline in THC conversion above).

My latest experiences: 
Last time I returned to water in my crockpot. Decided fuck ghee the water will evaporate out eventually on it's own (yes I now know other reasons not to think that's the only concern!), Put in my material, put in my lecithin and set to go 22 or 23 hours.

Yes I freaked out when in continuing to read wanting to perfect I came across SEVERAL mentions of NOT putting lecithin in if using water method until AFTER straining out water (what?!?! I've done it before no issue...I think?)... That the lecithin would bond the water to the fat and thus all my goodies as well. I thought it was going to be a loss.
Much to my surprise, and no I'm not quite sure how or why, everything was as strong as expected. I salvaged it somehow. ‍
I did however notice the bubble action I had also read about being an indicator of decarb state, but mostly at first because I thought of... shit! this is because I put the lecithin in when I shouldn't have! 
At about 21 hours I noticed significant change in the bubbling. I was hesitant though...I know I'm good with 23 hours... Is it too soon to pull it? Is this really the bubble production I'm supposed to be paying attention to in the first place? Or is this bubbling only because of the lecithin? 
I think I let it go one more hour at which point I said ok this is really still/not bubbling looking as compared to before I'm going to pull it out now. 

It was good...I was pleased. Considered it stressful success with maybe a little luck in the salvage.

Next time I'm convinced again no water. It's a bad evil. And I'll wash it AFTER extraction a couple times maybe even (been doing more reading!!)
*Note: LOTS of questions about this washing method!!! Save those for later!* 
And I'm definitely going to the trouble of a ghee again. 
So...crockpot, ghee, material, lecithin... GO! It will be a long 23 hours...
Except....I notice again the bubble action similar to before.... Ok guess it's just the lecithin increasing this activity and nothing to do with the water. DATA NOTED! lol
However...I notice this bubbling seem to significantly change, also like before, but maybe not quite as still, and oh shit... I'm only at... Wait....4 hours?!? Is that right?
What do I do? Am I supposed to pull it NOW??? Is decarb peaked? What if I haven't gone long enough and don't get all THC I can? But what if I'm now just turning to CBN????
I borrow a digital thermometer and decide to check the temp I'm my crockpot... Because does this ghee actually get hotter than when the water is there, too? Afterall in the old days the water was used to help with temperature control... My crockpot has low high warm.... But what temp is it getting to exactly? And does it cycle? How consistent is the temp and what is it making this ghee temp?
Worse... I got different reads at different spots in the pot. Even more worse, I was getting reads near 250 (f)! Oh shit... Looking at the chart, 4 hours in, if this has been the case, I'm well surpassed the time. The bubbles make sense /are corroborated by these temps!
But it's not uniform at this temp.... What effect is that having?
Essentially...I found myself in conundrum and having to determine what to do.
Too many questions! Too many unknowns! Not a very well defined experiment!!! Lol

Let's discuss all this about this bubble production...
Can I watch the bubbles in my ghee and material and that's the decarb action? And use it's activity to judge when it's complete or peaked? Everyone talks of a hot oil bath and then I get confused about WHERE and WHICH bubbles are they watching? 
Am I correct in thinking I can watch the bubbles in my crockpot to visually see peak of decarb? 

Back to the experiment...
Well I ended up going a few more hours... like maybe 7 or 8 because I went to bed. I may have decided to put it on warm so at least it may be lower temperature? Can't remember. 

But having done a test comparison and I'm going to say this batch is not as "strong" which ultimately I think it's less "high" as in head high, but increased body effect /sedative.... Which would make sense if I've got more CBN and less THC if it's because I should have pulled at the bubbles changing. 
But I don't know if that's actually all true.

I think I want to repeat this last time exactly and do just that... Pull at the bubble change and see how they compare. Same material same everything else.

I need to go ahead and get some testing really of my product! 

I also noticed your test results didn't show THCa %... Which would help to provide more detailed picture in seeing what could be responsible for the change of results in your 2 batches. 

Someone on here said they think 180 for bonding to fats. But I still haven't seen anything regarding how long does it actually take to bond??? 

The other informative person on here that believes also in the long slow cook, would say the amount of time bonding is best with long times.... But he loses me however when it comes to the temps AND having pre-decarbed for the exact reasons I questioned about your 2nd batch having higher CBN. 
This all confuses me as well since he seemingly has had lots of success. 
But 18 hours after decarb???? 

Maybe it's the kind (effect) of edible we're going for as the end result? 

I saw you had a subsequent post with more results that were improved.... But you didn't mention what you did differently and changed for that batch! Would you please share the adjustments you made to your process and why you think your results were better? 

Thanks!!!!


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## cannabineer (Mar 3, 2020)

Kritkat said:


> Many years ago I read something after much research and embarked upon trials and found my best method. The key being in what I read was the time to heat and infuse....22-24 hours... Never over 24 or you'd start to degrade the THC. (This info lodged in my brain and I've never forgotten). It's so long ago I have no idea the complete full research or where I read the info that finally seemed to make the most sense and now wish I could! Because it was tried and true, and strong all while utilizing way less material than other recipes I'd read and ALWAYS was a longer cook time. Anybody doing it faster was certainly wasting more material and needing to ingest more than with mine.
> 
> I'd like to see what I read previously and compare and interpolate in trying to adapt and utilize some of the newer information I keep up on reading regarding extraction. I've found myself feeling like lately every time is an experiment again, even though I'm trying to stick to my one method!
> But I used to use water in my crockpot, now sometimes I try not to.... Only to then think it wasn't as good so then next time I'll return to with water again (repeat)...I've started clarifying my butter.... I've started adding lecithin...
> ...


“Bonding to fats” does not happen. IMO that is one of the excesses of “bro science” that infest this topic.
The three things that matter are:

1) dissolution (fats and alcohol are good solvents for THCA and THC).
2) decarboxylation (a function of time and temperature; read earlier posts treating of this)
3) decomposition (too hot for too long, only happens if you severely exceed the envelope in point 2).

At no point is the fat or oil used more than a solvent and edible vehicle.


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## Kritkat (Mar 3, 2020)

cannabineer said:


> “Bonding to fats” does not happen. IMO that is one of the excesses of “bro science” that infest this topic.
> The three things that matter are:
> 
> 1) dissolution (fats and alcohol are good solvents for THCA and THC).
> ...


If not "bonding" and rather is "dissolution"...which actually I can wrap my head around and think is potentially more sensible... Thank you! The question (one of my many) still remains the same... At what temp and how long does this dissolution take? 

I'm aware about 2 and 3...
I'm just wanting to understand more of the science in all this even deeper than what is known and I've found available thus far. There's a whole lot of opinion, I've read lots of other's experience, I've got plenty of my own. But I want to hone in more specifically on some data which will give more info and help answer all those questions I also asked that have continued to perplex me.


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## Kritkat (Mar 3, 2020)

cannabineer said:


> That chart is for "glass surface, open air' so oxidation effects are pronounced. i obtained complete conversion at 110 Celsius (oil bath temp) after 10-15 minutes (as checked by tlc). I could monitor reaction progress by the foaming of the hot extract. cn





Kritkat said:


> Let's discuss all this about this bubble production...
> Can I watch the bubbles in my ghee and material and that's the decarb action? And use it's activity to judge when it's complete or peaked? Everyone talks of a hot oil bath and then I get confused about WHERE and WHICH bubbles are they watching?
> Am I correct in thinking I can watch the bubbles in my crockpot to visually see peak of decarb?


I recognized your tag name because I remembered it b/c of interest in another of your responses... So I went back to check. 

Seems you could be the perfect person to also weigh in on my other questions regarding the bubbling and decarb state and visually detecting. 
I'd appreciate it!


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## cannabineer (Mar 3, 2020)

Kritkat said:


> If not "bonding" and rather is "dissolution"...which actually I can wrap my head around and think is potentially more sensible... Thank you! The question (one of my many) still remains the same... At what temp and how long does this dissolution take?
> 
> I'm aware about 2 and 3...
> I'm just wanting to understand more of the science in all this even deeper than what is known and I've found available thus far. There's a whole lot of opinion, I've read lots of other's experience, I've got plenty of my own. But I want to hone in more specifically on some data which will give more info and help answer all those questions I also asked that have continued to perplex me.


At room temp the dissolution takes an hour or two in a mix of bud with oil or liquid fat. In alcohol, less than a minute, which is why qwiso (quick-wash isopropyl alcohol extraction, usually done at freezer temps) works well.
At 80 C and up, maybe a minute.

Fat and weed oil are miscible, which means soluble in each other at any ratio. If you’re working with a very viscous extract, a bit of heat and stirring quickly mix the two.


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## Kritkat (Mar 3, 2020)

cannabineer said:


> At room temp the dissolution takes an hour or two in a mix of bud with oil or liquid fat. In alcohol, less than a minute, which is why qwiso (quick-wash isopropyl alcohol extraction, usually done at freezer temps) works well.
> At 80 C and up, maybe a minute.
> 
> Fat and weed oil are miscible, which means soluble in each other at any ratio. If you’re working with a very viscous extract, a bit of heat and stirring quickly mix the two.


Thank you!!! 
I was thinking it could be fairly quick... Like- melting butter or chocolate on low heat and stir- kind of timeline. 

Someone earlier posted about THC becoming molten at 180 (f). Would you agree and that this is the temp at which dissolution will happen?


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## cannabineer (Mar 3, 2020)

Kritkat said:


> I recognized your tag name because I remembered it b/c of interest in another of your responses... So I went back to check.
> 
> Seems you could be the perfect person to also weigh in on my other questions regarding the bubbling and decarb state and visually detecting.
> I'd appreciate it!


I have only noted the bubbling when I decarbed pure (undissolved) extract in a flask immersed in an oil bath preheated to 110 degrees C. I don’t imagine it is visible in a diluted extract such as made with coconut oil. Only way to be sure then is time at temperature.

Back in the day, I used tlc (thin-layer chromatography, a quick and easy test) to track the decarb process. This allowed me to gain experience with time/temperature. 
My efforts to do tlc at home didn’t pan out so well. So I’m reduced to saying “this method worked” without telling you how to test my veracity.

Thus I read accounts of decarb at lower temperatures with skepticism, but without certainty that it didn’t or won’t work.


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## cannabineer (Mar 3, 2020)

Kritkat said:


> Thank you!!!
> I was thinking it could be fairly quick... Like- melting butter or chocolate on low heat and stir- kind of timeline.
> 
> Someone earlier posted about THC becoming molten at 180 (f). Would you agree and that this is the temp at which dissolution will happen?


THC and high-percentage extracts e.g. shatter are glassy at room temperature. At about 60 degrees, 140 F, they are pourable and fast-mixing.

Dissolution can and will occur at low temperatures in any suitable solvent, like 95% alcohol. In a viscous medium like olive oil, it’ll also happen, just more slowly. The preparation instructions for, say, infused coconut oil work best hot but will still go so long as the oil is above its freezing point. I live in the Mojave and am a cheap bastard when it comes to heating and cooling. My big jar of coconut oil is solid now but will be a clear liquid in summer when it can be ninety-plus in my house.

Now my house is around sixty degrees, but spring is coming. Last year, spring was a Tuesday.


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## Zinger59 (Mar 4, 2020)

Gamberro said:


> Hahaha! Believe it or not, I've been told that, yes, decarboxylation does improve the high when smoked. The science behind that is shaky at best, but there is a large enough number of cooks who will make this claim that I don't feel comfortable to simply dismiss it with my offhand.


I've been eating pot for 30 years in brownies, muffins and cookies. I only discovered the decarb process in the last few years. I've read data showing conversion of THC after decarb is significant when cooking but when smoking it occurs when when it is ignited. I bake my keef at 240F for 35 mins. I got the temps. off several websites. To tell the truth, I've forgotten to decarb a batch from time to time and it still works fine.


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## Zinger59 (Mar 4, 2020)

cannabineer said:


> THC and high-percentage extracts e.g. shatter are glassy at room temperature. At about 60 degrees, 140 F, they are pourable and fast-mixing.
> 
> Dissolution can and will occur at low temperatures in any suitable solvent, like 95% alcohol. In a viscous medium like olive oil, it’ll also happen, just more slowly. The preparation instructions for, say, infused coconut oil work best hot but will still go so long as the oil is above its freezing point. I live in the Mojave and am a cheap bastard when it comes to heating and cooling. My big jar of coconut oil is solid now but will be a clear liquid in summer when it can be ninety-plus in my house.
> 
> Now my house is around sixty degrees, but spring is coming. Last year, spring was a Tuesday.


I tried coconut oil, butter, canola oil and olive oil. Canola is best for the body with lowest saturated fats as opposed to coconut oil which is solid at room temp. Coconut oil has more sat. fat than lard and butter and since I have high cholesterol I have been using olive oil and getting good results in my muffin recipe. 24 muffins=48g keef


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## Kritkat (Mar 4, 2020)

[]
I wish we could sit down, sip tea, and discuss at great length! 

Now you've given me...more to ponder, more for me to look into, more to keep learning! 

cannabineer... Thank you for all your responses!


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## Bush wolf (Apr 9, 2021)

high everyone!
here are my questions ?
1) heat is heat so if the plant material is in the oven at 110 deg or in oil at 110 deg the decarboxylation
process of driving off the carbon dioxide should happen? In the oven you won’t see it but in the oil you will see a little bubble of 
carbon dioxide float to the surface? And when that stops all the carbon dioxide is gone and the Thc-a is now thc ?
but only in just oil. Because if we add water then the bubbles are just boiling water bubbles?

2) if you decarb first in the oven then put in oil at temp of 110 are you now driving the conversion to cbn? As the decarb has already happened ?

3) the time it takes for the thc to dissolve into the oil /combine with the oil is it, 20 min, 2 hrs, 4 hrs 8 hrs 12 hours 24 hrs?

4) If we leave the plant material in the oil for too long at any temp are we again driving the conversion to cbn?

lets See if any scientist has the answers to these questions


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