# Cytokinins (6-BAP) & Auxins (IAA)



## Guile (Nov 21, 2011)

Has anyone experimented with this combination of hormones?

I have read that the ideal relative concentrations are significant to outcome however I have not read much about the overall ratio relationship.
Lower than 50% Auxins (IAA) is my only loose guideline with a notation that high levels of IAA can be damaging to the plant.

I'm also curious about Gibberellic Acid (GA) does it cause excessive stretch? if so would the Cytokinins (6-BAP) counteract it at all?

From what I've read a combination of these 3 hormones should yield large dense fast maturing buds.. Seems its just ratio and concentration that need to be sorted out.

Any insight would be valuable and appreciated.


----------



## Guile (Nov 22, 2011)

Work with me here guys..

How about using *"Water soluble IBA salts"* (a naturally occurring *Auxin*) in conjunction with *"Fresco" *(containing equal parts 6-BA & GA4/7)? That would give us all 3 hormones in a 2 part solution.. (have a feeling that the GA would have to be decreased if the current ratio leads to too much stretching) You could add some Fulvic acid *("Diamond Nectar")* to the mix for good measure and BAM! your plants are juicing like *"Arnold"* back in the day..

I'm sure that used in conjugation with each other at the recommended ratios of biweekly foliage feeding would yield amazing results assuming that the IBA does not stall flowering. (I believe I had read somewhere that it might, however it naturally occurs in many plants, and I have personalty taken a clone from a plant already into flowering and continued its flowering through the rooting period. The yield was obviously low however the small bud reached maturity in a reasonable length of time)


----------



## Guile (Nov 22, 2011)

Looks like "Fresco"s ratios are a bit off for what I want to do.. From my most recent research the ratio of *6-BAP & GA *should be more like 10:1 (favoring the 6-BAP) with equal amounts of Fulvic Acid and IBA salts (favoring Fulvic acid respectively).

I talked to a some experts today, one even had a degree in bio engineering (maybe they all did?). All seemed a little skeptical about the ultimate outcome of combining these hormones and nutrients. Predominantly concerns that the IBA would stunt/stall the flowering of the plants (keep in mind that IBA is naturally found in many different plants throughout many stages of life), otherwise IBA and Gibberellic Acid promote vertical growth through cellular division or elongation causing lanky plants (however 10 times as much BAP is being used and it stunts vertical growth and promotes side branching).. 
Everyone seemed to agree that it would have a significant influence on root development. I figure that root mass has a direct and proportionate relationship to total plant mass. At very least it would be the best rooting solution yet.

Taking that direction and running with it.. adding stuff like KoolBloom, Hygrozyme, and Superthrive (in relatively low concentrations) could yield something you could put in your reservoir, soak rooting cubes in, and/or foliage feed your cuttings with. These additions would likely benefit a plant latter on in its life cycle too (still leaving the door open for use as a flower enhancer).


----------



## Guile (Nov 24, 2011)

I figure a concentration of :

Thiamine Mononitrate (Vit. B1) 1ppm? 
IBA (Auxin) 10ppm
Gibberellic Acid (GA) 10ppm 
Phosphate 25ppm (_65ppm Dicalcium phosphate powder, pet supplement_)
Magnesium 25ppm (_45ppm Magnesium oxide powder, human supplement_)
Calcium 50ppm _(Provided by the Dicalcium phosphate at least in part I think, otherwise calcium carbonate can be added_)
Benzylaminopurine *(**Cytokinins*)100ppm 
Fulvic acid 100ppm (_130ppm_ _FULVITAL WSP 80 plant supplement_)

Seems like it should work for foliage feeding. Though there has been some doubt placed in my mind about the effectiveness of Fulvic acid. It seems that most Fulvic acid products on the market are aquatic plant extracts containing only 3-4% available Fulvic acid, the impression I'm under leads me to believe that the other 95+% (containing plant hormones and nutrients) is likely whats responsible for most the benefits associated with these products.. 
I have found a distributor of 85% pure Fulvic acid that I would like to try, containing 85% less &quot;other things&quot; I think the ultimate test would be to tun 2 test batches of the solution listed above, one omitting the Fulvic acid.

Also the Gibberellic Acid (GA) my not be necessary on naturally stretchy/lanky plants, so that could be omitted too .

What are some other good common sources of consistently pure Phosphate, Magnesium, Calcium, and BI that would be suitable for such an application?


----------



## Guile (Nov 24, 2011)

On the other hand... A simple solution of:
75ppm IAA (Auxin: Indole Acetic Acid) keep in mind that too much IAA can cause hermaphrodisum in Marijuana plants but I think it will benefit the flowering tips more than IBA if I have gotten (or can get) the ratios right.
and 175ppm BAP (Cytokinins)
in clean/distilled water 

That would be mixed 2:1 with whatever is in your reservoir (like GH Flora series, including Diamond Nectar, KoolBloom, with some Hygrozyme & SuperThrive for root health).
Just 5oz your current nutrient solution and 10 oz "hormone stack" would fill your 1 pint spray bottle (or double for quarts).

Funny how the ultimate evolution of an idea often brings it full circle?

I could almost guarantee positive results biased solely on regular foliage feeding with a 1/3 solution of your reservoir contents (assuming it meats your plants needs to start with). I have read of increases as much as 100% in final yield. (though not sure I would expect quite that much even with the use of hormones but half would still be worth while)


----------



## Joedank (Nov 25, 2011)

I spray with a soluble kelp , humic and fulvic all individuals bought in bulk on kelp for less a spray of braggs liquid aminos and away grow I use it to feed microbes in my Rez too ..
A little reading on hormones for ya
ABSTRACT: Several types of plant biostimulants exist but plants generally are capable of producing those they need. In many instances, however, it has been demonstrated that their external additions by foliar spray or to roots has provided added benefits to plants. The scientific studies in this field have been going on for close to 70 years but there are still unknowns and commercialization has been relatively minor. Growth inhibitors are about as important as growth stimulators. Some plant residues like seaweed, kudsu, and yucca are believed to be good sources of some biostimulants. Processed humic acid is marketed with some claims of stimulation. The on going debate about whether compost is more valuable than uncomposted materials involves the possibility that some microbes produce biostimulants in the composting process. There is some reason to expect that use of materials by soil application that contain biostimulants can often be a best management practice to interact favorably with other such products to improve the efficiency of crop production. More research is needed.

Among the legal definitions of the California Department of Food and Agriculture is one for Auxiliary Soil and Plant Substances: " any chemical or biological substance or mixture of substances distributed in this state to be applied to soil, plants, or seeds for soil corrective purposes; of which is intended to improve germination, growth, yield, product quality, reproduction, flavor, or other desirable characteristics plants; or which is intended to produce any chemical, biochemical, biological, or physical change in soil. Does not include commercial fertilizers, agricultural minerals, soil amendments, or manure's. This category includes all of the following: Synthetic polyelectrlytes, lignin or humus preparations, wetting agents, to promote water penetration, bacterial inoculants, microbial products, soil binding agents, and biotics. Biotics are all materials for which claims are made relating to organisms, enzymes, or organism by-products."

Several different types of products are included in this list. Only those which are considered as biostimulants are the subject of this paper. This brief discussion is an introduction only to a broad field of study which has resulted in some but not enormous technologies. a more comprehensive review in the near future is warranted especially since one of the goals of biotechnology is to produce biostimulants to enhance plant growth. Microbes and enzymes are not considered in this report. By and large, foliar applications of substances which may stimulate growth or fruiting are not specifically considered at this time. Of concern mostly are those that may be applied in soil or both ways.

Many reports exist where claims are made for certain natural products like kelp (Smitte 1991), kudsu, and yucca to have stimulating effects on plants when applied to soil usually in very small quantities. humus products derived from alkaline solutions of lingites often with some oxidation are claimed to have similar effects. Some composts are believed to contain biostimulants which is a basis for claiming that adding composts to soil is better than adding non composted materials. when stimulation occurs, it is the result of some specific compound usually identifiable. Usually plants, but differentially, are able to synthesize needed "phytohormones". Some specific categories are gibberellins, cytkinins, and auxins. "Roots" is a popular product that claims biostimulation which is partly caused by the iron which it contains(Schmidt 1990).

The gibberellins have been known, researched, and used on a limited commercial scale since the 1920s (Stowe and Yamaki 1957) or about 70 years. This parallels the pattern for many other technologies (fertilizers and water-soluble polymers in agriculture) when many decades go by before general acceptance.

"Biostimulants are materials that promote plant growth when applied in small quantities. They also help plants withstand harsh environments. The best biostimulants that we have encountered for enhancing turfgrass growth are cytokinins (plant-synthesized growth regulators) and cytokinin-like materials.

Although researchers knew as early as 1913 that plants produced a cell division-stimulating substance, it took until 1955 to identify it as a cytokinin. In 1963, scientists isolated zeatin from corn. It was the first example of a naturally occurring cytokinin.

By 1969, they were experimenting with topical applications of seaweed-extracted cytokinin on various plants. From this work weâve learned that besides enhancing cell division, cytokinins: enable cells to differentiate into various plant organs, retard plant senescence or aging, stimulate chloroplast formation, help seeds break dormancy, and enhance flowering in some species.

Along with this work, researchers learned in 1972 that some systemic fungicides, such as triazoles, have cytokinin-like properties. Two of these are turf fungicides: propiconazole (Banner) and triadimefon (Bayleton)." (Schmidt 1990)

CLAIMS FOR SEAWEED
Seaweed extract is being marketed and supposedly has special benefits when supplied with iron (Nabati et al. 1994). The following comments are extracted from a gardening article on use of seaweed (there are various species of seaweed which may differ in composition that influences biostimulation.(Smite 1991): "Seaweed is a rootless plant in the Fucus family that floats freely or clings to rocks by holdfasts (root-like or disk shaped plant parts that attach seaweed to rocks but donât absorb nutrients). Seaweed photosynthesizes the sunlight that reaches it through shallow water and it absorbs nutrients from sea water through its leaves. Since the ocean receives runoff from the entire earth, it contains all known minerals, trace elements, and vitamins. This primal supermarket supplies a more complete diet for sea plants than any plot of rich soil or fertilizer provides for land plants. Seaweed contains 60 or more minerals and several plant hormones. It is not however a complete fertilizer. It has a fair amount of nitrogen and potash, but very little phosphorus, a major plant nutrient.

Only a few seaweeds are harvested commercially. Norwegian kelp (Ascophyllum nodosum), a brown algae is the seaweed most used in gardening. Norwegian kelp is gathered off the coasts of England, Ireland, Norway, and both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts of North America where it is called rockweed. Gulfweed (Sargassum), a floating sea plant, is harvested off the coast of North Carolina. Giant kelp(Macrcystis) is collected in the Pacific Northwest.

Seaweed is constantly worn down by tides and eaten by fish, so it must grow rapidly to survive. Studies at the University of California showed that a frond of seaweed can grow a foot or more a day, given optimal conditions. The same growth hormones that prompt such rapid growth in seaweed , when applied to plants as a foliar spray, can increase the rate of cell division and elongation in those plants. The hormones also increase root growth when applied to the soil as meal or when seaweed extract is used as a root dip.

In recent turf tests at Virginia Polytechnic Institute in Blacksburg, plots sprayed with seaweed extract had 67% to 175% more roots than untreated plots. Plots treated in fall showed a 38% increase in spring growth over untreated plots and showed 52% more roots.

In tests at South Carolina's Clemson University, seeds soaked in liquid seaweed extract showed rapid germination, and the resulting seedlings had increased root mass and stronger plant growth than seedlings from untreated seeds. They also had a higher survival rate. Soaking plant roots in seaweed extract reduces transplant shock and speeds root growth. Seaweed foliar sprays promote faster, stronger stem and leaf growth, and earlier blossoming and fruit set when sprayed on leaves and flower buds."(Smitte 1991)

Many books and reviews have been made on plant growth regulators even by the early 1960âs (Thimann 1963). There are at least four major groups. Thimann discussed three of them thirty years ago.

"Unlike the animal hormones, each of which has its target organ or tissue, the most obvious property of the plant growth substances is not only that their functions are multiple but they overlap. For any given process their actions may be similar or opposed, or synergistic, or entirely different. For instance, kinetin reacts with auxin to produce callus growth, it opposes auxin in lateral bud development, resembles auxin in inhibiting root elongation, does strongly what auxin does only weakly in promoting protein synthesis, and acts the same way as auxin to cause cell division; in the last case, however, auxin action may be dependent on endogenous kinins already present, so that this action may fall into the first category.

Finally, it differs completely from auxin in not being readily transported. Similarly, gibberellin acts like auxin in promoting elongation of etiolated stems and formation of parthenocarpic fruit (though it generally delays fruit-set), reacts with auxin in producing elongation of isolated green stems, acts more powerfully than auxin on elongation of intact stems, does what auxin cannot do in causing flowering of long-day plants on short-day photoperiods, and the elongations of monocotyledonous leaves and leaf sheaths. Yet it acts in the opposite direction to auxin on root formation by cuttings and leaves and apparently also on the tensile properties of pea stems. Auxin favors formations of pistillate flowers, gibberellin of staminate. Generally, all gibberellins act in the same way as one another, and the same is qualitatively true for auxins, with certain exceptions.

The multiple actions of auxin have often been discussed. Here it needs only be mentioned that the growth inhibiting actions are probably at least as important as the growth promoting ones. The inhibition of lateral bud development is of major importance in integrating the plant body, and and parallel phenomena to it are found in ferns and mosses. Thus auxins should not necessarily considered only as growth promoting substances."(Thimann 1963)

In the 1960s we made some studies with humates derived from leonardite (Wallace and Khadr 1966). Some interesting results were observed but caution was used in the interpretation. " an unfortified humus product seemed to have auxin-like effects in plants in that it increased periodicity of root pressure exudation and hastened time of flowering. there are many reports that indicate the value of soil organic matter in crop production is not confined to supplying plant nutrients, to increasing the availability of plant nutrients, or to improving the physical properties of soil. There is no doubt that a large number of components of the soil organic matter can be absorbed by plant roots from the soil and translocated to other parts of the plants. The relationship of molecular weight to this type of absorption is unknown, but it is known that nucleic acids can be synthesized in some cells and translocated to others. Recent work has shown that quinone groups in humic substances stimulate some plant enzyme systems related to respiration.

Many low-molecular weight compounds that are products of decomposition of organic matter have been observed to promote plant growth. Creatinine is an example. B-indoleacetic acid, which has a powerful effect in stimulating root growth. These substances include vanilin, benzoic acid, some aldehydes, and dihydroxystearic acid. Many workers seriously doubt that humus-like materials or breakdown products from them can have auxin-like effects in soils." (Wallace and Khadr 1966).

SOME RECENT REPORTERS ON BIOSTIMULANTS
Chen et al. 1994: The properties of humic substances originating from composts were studied and compared to soil derived humic materials. A small fraction of lower molecular weight components of humic substances can be taken up by plants. These components are considered to increase cell membrane permeability and to exhibit hormone-like activity. In soils, addition of compost was found to stimulate growth beyond that provided by mineral nutrients. Addition of composts to container media mixes resulted in significant yield increase which was attributed to humic substances. Water extracts obtained from composts exhibited auxin-like activity.

Albuzio et al. 1944: The addition of a molecular size fraction compatible with direct uptake by roots and translocation to the vegetative compartments, induced sharp enhancement in chlorophyll contents. Apparently, low molecular size compounds are able to enter the roots, be translocated to the leaves and be metabolically significant.

Schmidt et al. 1991: By 1969 experiments with applicants of seaweed extracted cytokinis were being conducted on various plants. From 1972 triazole fungicides were shown to have biostimulant properties. In the mid 1980âs, extracted seaweed, benzyladenine (synthetic cytokinin) and selected triazole systemic fungicides were shown to stimulate turfgrasses. Various studies with cool season turfgrass have shown that biostimulant application improved photosyntesis, reduced senescence effect, increased leaf and shoot numbers, improved leaf water potential, and enhanced shoot and root mass. Cytokinis with iron helped warm season grasses retain color in the fall and stimulate spring green up. Recent research documented that biostimulants conditioned turfgrass to tolerate drought and salinity irrigation.

Yan and Schmidt 1992: Plant growth regulator like propiconazole and 1H-1, 2, 4-triazole and fortified seaweed extract increased the salt tolerance of perennial ryegrass by adjustment of cell membrane composition.

Ono et al. 1993: Promain (GA4 + GA7 + N-(phenylmethyl)-1H-purine-6-amine) at 50 mg/L, was the most beneficial in enhancing seed germination.

Mate and Katalin1993: The chlormequat + ethepon + microelements treatment beyond the height reduction also increase the yield. Plant growth regulators used alone had no effect on yield.

Russo 1991: Yale Univ., New Haven, CT USA. A thesis on the action of "Roots".

Basnizki and Goldschmidt 1994: Under field conditions, GA3 rep;aced the cold requirements of line ÎHU 271â, thereby enabling the start of flowering during autumn. Another clone flowered without GA3 treatment.

Suzuki 1992: A review discussing use of growth retardants.

Hood 1994: The Cytokin treatment significantly increased lint yield over the other treatments 1992. There were no statistically significant differences between the non-treated check and any treatment in 1993.

Balyan et al. 1994: Triacontanol increased the plant height, number of leaves and leaf length. It had a positive effect on herbage yield, which was increased by 21.35 percent over control.

Perez et al. 1994: The best treatments were mixtures with endosulfan, befenthrin of profenfos. There was a significant improvement in yield and fiber quality.

Takahashi and Yamaguchi 1994: Plant growth-regulating agents containing kojic acid and/or its salts applied tostems and leaves of fruit and vegetable plants accelerated their fruit maturity.

Beltrano et al. 1994: A humic substance obtained from the feces of the earthworms at a concentration of 1 mg carbon per liter cause root development from leaf explants that appears to be similar to indole acetic acid induced activity, while the control did not develop roots. Humate induced longer roots than those grown in indole acetic acid but with fewer hair roots.

REFERENCES:
Albuzio, A., G. Concheri, S. Nardi, and G. DellâAgnola. 1994. Effect of humic fractions of different molecular size on the development of oat seedlings grown in varied nutritional condition. Humic Subst. Global Environ. Implic. Hum. Health, Proc. Int. Meet. Humic Subst. Soc., 6th 1992; 199-204. Chem. Abstracts 121:229751 (1994)


----------



## Guile (Nov 25, 2011)

Joedank :

Thank you for your contribution, I was hopping to provoke some research and discussion on this subject. I am finding many short papers on the topic but have gleaned little insight in what would seem a valuable aria to understand. This material has brought some things to light that I had otherwise been in the dark about. I'm hoping that others too will have looked into or even experimented some with these hormones might offer me their insight.

Do all Auxins really behave the same way? I only ask because most of what I read about Auxins relates to their use as a herbicide (Agent Orange.) and I never see IAA being sold as a rooting hormone, its usually NAA and IBA that serve that role. IBA tends to be associated with cell growth and division during new root development However I had read that IAA is more closely associated with cell growth and division at the growing tips of the plant. 
Have I misunderstood what I have been reading? or does IBA work at least as well if not better than IAA in all regards (especially with root development)? In high enough concentrations would IBA cause hermaphrodisum in marijuana plants (like with IAA) or become a defoliant (like 2,4,5-T and/or 2,4-D, )? 

Triacontanol sounds well worth experimenting with too, in what I read its used at concentrations of 1-10ppm with notable results (by improving photosynthesis, promoting cell growth and division). Has anyone experimented with this one?

I recently found a distributor that sells these hormones in small quantitys. I have purchased 5-10 grams each of Triacontanol, IAA BAP, IBA, GA, and Fulvic Acid to experiment with. Fortunately my tables are set up in rows of 4x4 so I could tun one whole row to each hormone and each row at up to 4 different concentrations (though containing over-spray might be a challenge potentially limiting me to test entire tables at a time). I also picked up a gallon of "Europonics FocilFuel" as an example of the aquatic plant derived 3% fulvic acid. (which I believe is basically kelp/seaweed compost)

Are there any good resources in identifying the full scope of these homerooms influences and how they will interact with each-other?


----------



## potpimp (Nov 25, 2011)

Good grief what a great thread!! This needs to be moved to the Advanced Cultivation forum where it can get some airtime!! I can move it there (with permanent redirects) if you want.


----------



## Guile (Nov 25, 2011)

Potpimp:
By all means please do feel free to move the thread to its appropriate location. 
I would love to hear from other growers that may have looked into or even experimented with some of these hormones.


----------



## potpimp (Nov 25, 2011)

Will do and thanks for your wonderful contribution!!


----------



## Guile (Dec 26, 2011)

I recently received my order of 6-BAP, Fulvic Acid, Triacontanol, and IAA. 
Based on the suppliers recommendations it seems like the Ideal ratio is something like:

500-3000ppm 6-BAP, 
200-500ppm Fulvic Acid
50-150ppm IAA 
1-10ppm Triacontanal 

However I have run into a problem keeping all these hormones in suspension, the result seems to be that the hormones are not being absorbed by the leaves of the plant, instead accumulating as white specks on the plant once the water is absorbed/evaporates.

I believe I may try again after ordering some more exotic solvents than what I generally keep around the house (Polysorbate 20)


----------



## potpimp (Dec 26, 2011)

You may want to try adding a simple surfactant and/or an emulsifier.


----------



## Guile (Dec 27, 2011)

PotPimp:

Would you have any recommendations? I'm at a bit of a loss here to be honest with you, this is my first experiment with phytohormones (other than rooting hormones obviously) and I'm really not clear on what I can get away with..

Oh, and by the way.. The distributor of the hormones I ordered stated that IBA can be used in place of the IAA (Auxin) at the same ratios/concentrations listed above.. (if anyone is using this info for their own personal reference). 

I should probably also make note that the solution I had prepared contained:

1250ppm 6-BAP 
100ppm IAA 
10ppm Triacontanal 

The resulting solution became cloudy in appearance when the PH was adjusted to compensate for the alkalinity caused by the Sodium Hydroxide (used to prepare the 6-BAP for solution). These particles precipitate out in a matter of hours when allowed to stand undisturbed. 

This solution was sprayed on several plants (of different verity's) over a week ago resulting in noticeable curling of a few plant leaves (less than half but a notable amount). From what I understand this is a symptom indicates an excessive amount of IAA, obviously this could be a product of the poor state of my solution, however It might be wise to reduce its concentration for latter tests (otherwise substitute the IAA with IBA as mentioned by the distributor, or perhaps a 50/50 combination of the 2).


----------



## potpimp (Dec 27, 2011)

Just add a drop of liquid soap (_not_ detergent) as a surfactant. Emulsifiers and emulsifying particles tend to promote dispersion of the phase in which they do not dissolve very well; for example, proteins dissolve better in water than in oil and so tend to form oil-in-water emulsions (that is, they promote the dispersion of oil droplets throughout a continuous phase of water).


----------



## Guile (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't mean to come off sounding completely numb here, but I am still a little unclear... I believe that the only soap I have in my house is the perfumed bars of bath soap. (its Ivory, so its 99,44% pure... lol) of its 7 constituent parts only the Sodium chloride (salt) and "fragrance component" seem like they could be an issue..

So, when we say "soap" are we talking about mixing Sodium Hydroxide with plant/animal fat to obtain unadulterated soap or is the perfumed bar soap in my bathroom sufficient?

Sorry about coming off like a fool but its always the simple sounding stuff that seems to trip me up.. (In my experience, whenever things appear too simple its usually because there are too many assumptions taken for granted). 

Please don't get me wrong I understand what the soap is doing to aide in maintaining my solution, also breaking surface tension/acting as a wetting agent which will also eliminate the white specks where the hormones concentrated on my leaves (as the water evaporates or is absorbed).. however the perfume... is it an issue?


----------



## potpimp (Dec 28, 2011)

It probably would not be an issue. Check your dishwashing detergent. If you have any Dawn, it works great.


----------



## Guile (Dec 28, 2011)

Well it is just perfume, and in the spirit of keeping things economical/simple I think I'm going to give Ivory soap a try 

I was just going through some of my old research and notes when It dawned on me that the concentrations of hormones recommended by the distributor are much higher than every other paper I had read on the topic and I cant help but think they are just trying to sell more product.. 

My concern is that they recommend feeding only once every other week and I cant help but think there might be a reason behind it...

When originally considering this experiment I intended to foliage feed my plants twice a week at significantly lower hormone concentrations. 
If I quarter the recommended concentration of hormones and feed at 4 times the frequency things will be more on par with the papers I've read, but will the plants be more prone to building a tolerance to the hormones (being more consistently elevated)?

I'm strongly considering poring the remainder of my first 1 gallon test batch into a 5gallon container and diluting things to where I had originally thought they should be.. (at lower saturation the hormones might even stay in suspension better and would likely elevate the leaf curling experienced at the high recommended concentration)


----------



## potpimp (Dec 28, 2011)

Say it ain't so Joe!! I hate that most companies are so greedy they feel the need to have you burn your plants up just so you'll use a few more cents of their product faster. When will they ever learn? Looking forward to the results.


----------



## Guile (Dec 28, 2011)

So far there is one interesting observation I have made..... 

Though I should probably start by saying that my grow room is a 10x20 foot addition added to the side of my house, though insulated it is not heated by anything other than the 2.4kw worth of lights that I run at night to take advantage of the warmer daytime temperatures while they are off (its kind of cool to see which strains have started turning purple from the cold) currently speaking I am running 4 ebb & flow tables each is 3ft square (1m2) and has its own 40 gallon (150 liter) res. I run GH flora series nutrients using the modified Lucus formula with the addition of Superthrive, Kool Bloom, and Hygrozyme.

I run a perpetual harvest so I pull a table every 2 weeks. Each table is set up with 16 sites and I am running 2-4 strains per table (4 or 8 plants of each strain) 
If you are familiar with my local laws and have done the math I would like to circumvent discussions about legality by stating that I share garden space with my girlfriend/partner whom is also a MMJ patent and care provider (so we are within the current laws)

The strains I currently have in flower are :
Sour Diesel (mid-late in flowering)
Wappa (mid-late in flowering)
Redd Cross
Sage & Sour (early-mid in flowering)
MOB (early-mid in flowering)
AK48
White Castle
Head Band
Blue Gum (early in flowering)
Light of Jah (early in flowering)
Skunk
Chronic
Northern Lights

During my first test spraying of the high recommended hormone concentrations I sprayed 16 plants (essentially 1-2 plants of each verity).

The observation I've made so far is that the leaves of some of these plants are curling. I have been placed under the impression that its a product of too high an IAA concentration.

Here's the interesting part, the most robust/best yielding strains with my system/method seem to be the ones most affected with the curling leafs. For the most part they are broader leaf verity's (MOB, Blue Gum, exct) however some of the narrower leaved are suffering as well (most notably Light of Jah and Wappa).

Sage & Sour (which has medium width leafs) is taking it particularly poorly. This is my first cycle with Sage & Sour and I had high hopes for the strain but much like Redd Cross its sending branches out the side nearly equal in distance to its height making it unsuitable for my setup. Might be worth mentioning that sour diesel is suffering the symptom as well, just to a lesser extent.

Blue Gum is perhaps the second next most affected, the significance is that this particular cutting is simply the most resistant, robust, idiot proof plant I have ever encountered (I've worked with no less than 3 dozen strains). On more than one occasion I have thoroughly abused this plant in just about any way you could imagine and have yet to hermi never mind kill it. 
You don't even need rooting hormone to clone it, you can simply snap off a branch, stick it in a cup of water and within 2 weeks it will have roots (I did this once with a branch I accidentally broke off a mother through rough handling).

This leads me to believe that the most robust plants are more sensitive to artificially elevated hormones, perhaps as a consequence of naturally high levels in them to start with? Though AK48, White Castle and Headband are all good performers too and seem to be showing far less of the leaf curling issues than some of the others.

Chronic, Skunk, and Northern Lights don't seem to be affected at all however they are amongst the least mature plants exposed to the hormones.

The stage in which the most affected plants were/are flowering is also noted as it may also be a contributing factor..


----------



## potpimp (Dec 29, 2011)

It appeared to me also that the dosage was too high - typical of companies wanting to sell more product, even if they kill your plants. With this effect on your plants you're not going to get bigger buds for sure. I would scale down the experiment until I got it dialed in more.


----------



## indiapale (Dec 29, 2011)

My experiences have not been favorable. 

With the GA3 the plants grew rapidly but were nothing more than stem and small leaves. It was however interesting to watch them grow several inches in a day.

With the BAP, the first time it developed plants that were short and stalky with very large stems and stunted vertical growth. 

Both of these experiments were conducted one week prior to flowering stage with a single spraying allowing one week of vegetative growth.

The results were very disappointing. I recently tried an application of GA3, BAP, and IBA. The plants immediately exhibited significant leaf curl and subsequently perished within a few days. 

I have since concluded that it was not the application rate but the volume of solution that I prepared. In order to dissolve the BAP in water you need to use sodium hydroxide "lye". The amount of lye I used followed by a small amount of solution is what caused the demise of the test plants. I fried them plain and simple. That won't happen again.

I have some cucumbers that I sprayed with a very small dose of GA3 and they are growing pretty fast and they look very good. I think different plants are going to react very differently. Some may not benefit at all from any of this.


----------



## Guile (Dec 29, 2011)

indiapale said:


> My experiences have not been favorable.
> 
> With the GA3 the plants grew rapidly but were nothing more than stem and small leaves. It was however interesting to watch them grow several inches in a day.
> 
> ...


What concentrations were you using? 

The only benefit I have read about GA having (that other available hormones don't) is that it can help initiate flowering.. This could be handy if it for instance allowed you to flower using longer light cycles or if you use IBA (in place of IAA) to find that it stunts flowering (which has been speculated to me), however the versicle growth it also triggers would have to be addressed. I think the BAP or Triacontanal might serve to counteract this affect..

I have a feeling that the BAP may also have to be used in much lower concentrations than I have tested so far (or tends to be recommended) like 100-200ppm (maybe less) but applied more regularly (affording you more control over the extent of its affects) Otherwise used in conjunction with with Auxins like IAA/IBA or maybe a low concentration of GA?

In my first experiment I too had to use Lye to dissolve BAP, the resulting solution had a PH over 10 and required ounces of cirtic acid to correct..

There is a ratio that once found should strike a balance: 
for so much of X you need this much Y to control the node spacing in the detection you want (otherwise a portion of z can be used)..
I figure once that's reached at lower concentrations you can spray with greater/lesser frequency to maintain finer control over things, otherwise adjust the concentration up for the single feeding right at the beginning of flowering.

Its my understanding that there is a different ideal ratio for every plant (and what you want it to do) this ratio is what has to be ironed out to reap the full benefits of the hormones. Unfortunately most the papers I've read were for cereal crops, or fruiting plants.


----------



## Guile (Dec 29, 2011)

potpimp said:


> It appeared to me also that the dosage was too high - typical of companies wanting to sell more product, even if they kill your plants. With this effect on your plants you're not going to get bigger buds for sure. I would scale down the experiment until I got it dialed in more.


I think I'm going to take the remaining gallon of my test solution and dilute it 4:1 (basically put it in a 5 gal jug and top off with water) That will get things pretty close to where it seems they should be.. Actually I might have to add just a hint of IAA (or IBA) to get back to my old speculative ratio..

Keep in mind I still have the GA3 so if it looks like my plants have completely stalled I can always give them a dose of that to re-initiate flowering (and stretch)


----------



## indiapale (Dec 29, 2011)

Oh my! I neglected to adjust the ph. Of course! 

250 ppm GA3
600 BAP
100 IBA


----------



## indiapale (Dec 29, 2011)

The BAP is used to counter the vertical effects of the GA3. Finding the right ratio is the key.


----------



## indiapale (Dec 29, 2011)

I think using the IBA helps with the root development during the accelerated growth that the GA3 causes. You would think that a plant would benefit the most during the first few weeks of vegetative stage with a mild dose of the components. That could possibly give you plants at three weeks that would normally take five. That's the biggest benefit I can see. But that's quite a lot right there and can be applied across the spectrum to a wide variety of plants.


----------



## Guile (Dec 29, 2011)

indiapale said:


> I think using the IBA helps with the root development during the accelerated growth that the GA3 causes. You would think that a plant would benefit the most during the first few weeks of vegetative stage with a mild dose of the components. That could possibly give you plants at three weeks that would normally take five. That's the biggest benefit I can see. But that's quite a lot right there and can be applied across the spectrum to a wide variety of plants.


I think you are right, and ideally you could find a hormone coctail that could work through the entire cycle, otherwise develop 2-3 covering every stage from rooting (strait forward) to vegging and flowering..

I think the GA will land around that of your Auxin (i'm thinking in the 10-50ppm range with the BAP about 10 times the amount (speculatively speaking anyway)


----------



## indiapale (Dec 29, 2011)

Interesting thread. I'm planning on trying the GA3 on a Banana. I have several pups I need to remove from the main plant. It will be interesting to see how they respond.


----------



## Guile (Dec 30, 2011)

indiapale said:


> Interesting thread. I'm planning on trying the GA3 on a Banana. I have several pups I need to remove from the main plant. It will be interesting to see how they respond.


I just cant believe we are the only 2 that can see enough benefit in this to experiment and try to figure it out...


----------



## indiapale (Dec 30, 2011)

Guile said:


> I think you are right, and ideally you could find a hormone coctail that could work through the entire cycle, otherwise develop 2-3 covering every stage from rooting (strait forward) to vegging and flowering..
> 
> I think the GA will land around that of your Auxin (*i'm thinking in the 10-50ppm range with the BAP about 10 times the amount *(speculatively speaking anyway)


I was thinking something similar. Reducing both the GA3 and the BAP with a higher ratio of BAP to GA3. I think the levels of IBA should be in the 50-75 ppm range. Maybe less is more?


----------



## Guile (Dec 30, 2011)

indiapale said:


> I was thinking something similar. Reducing both the GA3 and the BAP with a higher ratio of BAP to GA3. I think the levels of IBA should be in the 50-75 ppm range. Maybe less is more?


According to my distincter you may be able to get away with twice that, they say you can put up to 150ppm in your cloning machine (though I think 50 might be better advised there too), Keep in mind it might also be easier to recover if it turned out you get the ratio wrong... I really should have steeped back and considered that before going to the higher recommendations made by the distributor.. 

I have read that using IAA in conjunction with IBA (for cloning anyway, its usually used 2:1 favoring IBA)

Perhaps something like 10-20ppm IAA, 20-40ppm IBA, and 10-20 GA assuming you plan on using like 200-400ppm BAP and you sill might want to add 1-10ppm Triacontanal if you experience too much stretching. (though the high relative ratio of BAP to GA might keep that in check)
Maybe add 100-200ppm Fulvic acid, 1ppm B vitamins, and 200-400ppm of your "bloom" nutrient solution of choice from there its just little Kentucky windage to find the "ideal ratio" biased on the growth characteristics displayed.


In fact I just diluted/adjusted my original test batch to apx:
1 drop/gal Superthrive (B vitamins)
2ppm Triacontanal
20ppm IAA
20ppm IBA 
20ppm GA3 (Probibly would have gone lower but I couldn't take the Triacontanal out and this keeps things easy to remember)..
200ppm Falvic Acid
200ppm GH flora series nutrients
250ppm 6-BAP

And just did my best to spray the second row on each table without getting the first row again.. Hope this doesn't ruin half my crop... If this is still too much I figure I can always cut it in half again..


----------



## Afka (Dec 30, 2011)

Wheres the pics and side-by-side tests !?

For once there's an interesting thread in this subforum


----------



## drewbot (Dec 30, 2011)

The problem with finding solid answers with these hormone cocktails is that small causes give rise to large effects, especially when pairing hormones. Most of the literature on this subject tests only one or two hormones at different concentrations. 

The only helpful things I can add today are (1) for rooting try 4:1 IBA:NAA and (2) try TDZ for shoot induction, proliferation, and stem width. Tossing all that stuff together is going to have lockout or competitive binding situation most likely. Hard to say for sure.


----------



## OGEvilgenius (Dec 31, 2011)

If this works like steroids, perhaps there might be the same problem where natural production of some of these hormones might slow down or stop?


----------



## Guile (Dec 31, 2011)

drewbot said:


> The problem with finding solid answers with these hormone cocktails is that small causes give rise to large effects, especially when pairing hormones. Most of the literature on this subject tests only one or two hormones at different concentrations.
> 
> The only helpful things I can add today are (1) for rooting try 4:1 IBA:NAA and (2) try TDZ for shoot induction, proliferation, and stem width. Tossing all that stuff together is going to have lockout or competitive binding situation most likely. Hard to say for sure.


I agree that I am dealing with a far more complicated hormone cocktail than any I have read about so far. Obviously this makes it more difficult to determine the individual effects of any individual component of the cocktail (though those seem to be relatively well documented already). 

I plan to constantly adjust my formulation biased on the results I see and the affects I have read about for comparison. (in retrospect however I would have liked to run another test group omitting the Triacontanal and IBA as I have some suspicion they might be slowing the flowering of my plants)


----------



## Guile (Dec 31, 2011)

Afka said:


> Wheres the pics and side-by-side tests !?
> 
> For once there's an interesting thread in this subforum


Sorry I hav no pictures to share (only camreas I have are an old webcam and a bunch of 35mm's with not film).

Even my side-by-side tests are conducted with relatively loose set of standards (I experience noticeable deviation in growth of many plants biased on light distribution alone). however both test plants and their relative pear share a row on the same table. 

However I'm just addressing this with an eye on relative improvement. Once I get an ideal ratio down I might conduct other tests with my best effort to make all other conditions consistently ideal as well (I just don't have the money right now to ensure the most even distribution of the highest light concentrations so I work with what I have until that changes).

I'm just laying down a starting point for others to begin their experimentation from.. I have no illusions of being the person that gets everything figured out perfectly, I'm just the guy that makes you think "if this idiot can do it, I can do it better.."


----------



## Guile (Dec 31, 2011)

The first test row sprayed with a solution containing the distributor recommended concentrations of each the hormones they provided.

The leafs curled (In different directions) then these plants essentially stalled. On the most mature plants exposed to this high concentration of hormones The very top flower took on a strange appearance developing what looked like extremely fat short hairs.
Also there was an incredible density of bud leafs in the flower.. I speculate this is a product of the high levels of Triacontanal and 6-BAP

I recently diluted the original 1gallon test batch into a 5galon "second test batch" and added IBA and GA3 in hopes of correcting the hormone imbalance which is within reasonable margins of accuracy :

1 drop/gal Superthrive (B vitamins)
2ppm Triacontanal
20ppm IAA
20ppm IBA 
20ppm GA3 (Probibly would have gone lower but I couldn't take the Triacontanal out and this keeps things easy to remember)..
200ppm Falvic Acid
200ppm GH flora series nutrients
250ppm 6-BAP

I basically sprayed both the first and second rows (I made an effort to focus on the second but it was just impossible to completely avoid the first). 

This is the point in which I had a way to offer you pictures... Both the first and second rows had made a noticeable improvement in 24hours. Though many of the more mature plants in the first row developed a condition on main stem where it has become swollen and bumpy almost like was damaged and/or is trying to develop roots.. At 48 hours it has become impressive..

The mutant flowers on the most mature plants of test 1 have stretched a bit making them look far more natural though the hairs still look short they are very densely packed together.

Though there are still some curled leaves they are all curling in the same direction and many seem to be curled to a lesser extent. Less mature plants have perhaps shown the best results becoming darker green and giving explosive growth over the last 2 days..

No Joke, you know how some plants just pack on the biomass really fast at some stage in their development? (Either roots, stretch, or flowers) so much so that you can actually see the difference from day to day? That seems to be whats going on with the mid to moderately aged plants..

The youngest seem to be relatively unaffected, they have been having a hard time developing roots for a while (I think its because of the grow rooms low temperatures I think I'm shocking their roots) They have had over a week in their new 5" net pots (full of hydrotron) and roots are just becoming noticeable tonight the bottoms but its about damn time for that anyway. They are all pretty pale and unhappy looking... I hope I don't have to start heating their res..

The plants seem to be using alot more nutrient solution and leaf development at the top of the plants is impressive but nothing looks as though it is developing more flowers at the same rate..
I think for the next test the concentration will be half my current rate (I think then the concentrations will be such that they could be applied regularly to maintain consistent growth.


----------



## Guile (Jan 2, 2012)

One of my biggest concerns has begun to ease.. There is identifiably new flower development at the tops of my most mature plants (longer more natural looking hairs are springing up). So the Triacontanal and/or IBA have not completely stalled flowering.

However the plants seem to be focusing most their growth in upper leaf development. The new leafs are beautiful and lack the curl of many the leafs that have been exposed to the hormone mixtures tested so far.

I feel that the concentration of hormones might still be a little high. I plan to cut the concentration of my hormone solution (a gallon if it anyway) in half again before applying it to the next test row however I am going to wait until the explosive growth brought on by test batch 2 subsides (as its next to impossible to avoid over spray on the nearer plants front 2 rows).


----------



## Guile (Jan 2, 2012)

Does anyone know what "hormone/s" is/are responsible for the flowering of ruderalis plants (_*Florigen*_ co-proteins and/or amino acids)? I have found N-acetyl-thiazolidine-4-carboxylic acid (ATCA/NATCA/Aminofol/Folcisteine) being attributed with the flowering/ripening of fruit.

I only ask because it stands to reason that its introduction in this cocktail might allow me to flower all my plants under 24 hour daylight likely further improving overall efficiency..

Are there any "Florigen" products on the market?

Chack this out:
*PGR Combi* "We have successfully developed a best combination and tested last many years in different crops and found very effective cost benefit ratio."

or this one:

*N-Acetyl Thiazolidine Carboxylic Acid* "Foliar application at various stages of plants growth may be applied in combination with foliar fertilizers and micro nutrients. The yield increase is estimated as 35% to 50%"

Too bad they are both in India... *But not this one,* they are a European company with offices in the U.S. though at nearly $10/gram in their smallest quantity the price seems a little steep..

Is it just me or does it seem that ironing out the correct ratios in a cocktail containing all these hormones/nutrients has profound applications? You could potentially make every plant a high potency high yielding ruderalis-like plant (at your own discretion)


----------



## Guile (Jan 3, 2012)

If someone is interested in the topic

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/159989-hormones-pgr-s-vitimans-research.html

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/147801-hormones-vs-co2-hormones-cheaper.html

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=196121


----------



## drewbot (Jan 3, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> If this works like steroids, perhaps there might be the same problem where natural production of some of these hormones might slow down or stop?


Guile- did you read this post? This is some good intuition here because it is correct. Hormone replacement does cause supression of its production as well as a cascade of other effects. 

I wonder why you chose to throw so many different auxins together? Why not pick max 1 auxin and 1 cytokinin? One reason that you see no more than 2 hormones in the literature is because they're trying different orders of magnitudes- say 100:1 auxin:cytokinin to 1:100 auxin:cytokinin. In fact I read that is what is suggested for "homework" in the discussion of many of these tests. The ANOVA tests have no more than 3 hormones. Perhaps cytokinin, auxin, and giberellin. Here is a well thought out ANOVA test for cannabis and various hormones:

http://www.ib.uj.edu.pl/abc/pdf/47_2/145-151.pdf

useless to you, i know, but I do tissue culture so I get a feel for this stuff. Also many of these hormones are finicky in solution, IAA being the most finicky, so your cocktail has probably just trashed your IAA anyways. Many others require special methods for dissolving in solution and keeping them stable.


----------



## Guile (Jan 4, 2012)

*CONSTANS and FLOWERING *
*CONSTANS and the evolutionary origin of photoperiodic timing of flowering*
Hope this one works its a pdf on a webviewer p14: flowering, CONSTANS, and Gibberellins


----------



## Guile (Jan 4, 2012)

drewbot said:


> Guile- did you read this post? This is some good intuition here because it is correct. Hormone replacement does cause supression of its production as well as a cascade of other effects.
> 
> I wonder why you chose to throw so many different auxins together? Why not pick max 1 auxin and 1 cytokinin? One reason that you see no more than 2 hormones in the literature is because they're trying different orders of magnitudes- say 100:1 auxin:cytokinin to 1:100 auxin:cytokinin. In fact I read that is what is suggested for "homework" in the discussion of many of these tests. The ANOVA tests have no more than 3 hormones. Perhaps cytokinin, auxin, and giberellin. Here is a well thought out ANOVA test for cannabis and various hormones:
> 
> ...


My thought on the different Auxins was predominantly based on the part of the plant/function that each seems to be most closely associated with (it would seem to get pronounced results in more than one aria/attribute it would require more than one Auxin)

Ideally the objective of my experiments is to produce the greatest biomass (by way of flower) in the shortest frame of time between taking a cutting and pulling a harvest. (I live in a state that places a relatively low limit on the number of plants I can legally cultivate) don't get me wrong, I also have an eye on "feed efficacy" so to speak, keeping yield to cost ratio as reasonable as possible too. (what I would consider the common concerns of most farmers)

Far from useless your insight could be exceedingly useful in working out a more focused/effective test in the near future. I would love to hear more of your thoughts/opinions (at varying levels of detail).

Though a relatively simple sort myself (my dad an I consider ourselves "hicks" we try to make the best of the simple tools and modest resources available to us) and new to phytohormones, I have actually experimented with animal hormones a bit going as far as to strip the ester chains from (chemically alter) some in order to speed up their half life, allowing finer control through more frequent/lower dosages (this worked well when attempting to balance the effects of a hormone "stack") They too require special consideration when attempting to maintain a stable solution (though I try to follow manufacturer/distributor recommendations whenever available/applicable)
Anyway, I'm just trying to apply what I have learned through that experimentation to plants now, and hopefully learn a bunch of new stuff along the way 

This may sound odd but I enjoy reading research/white papers, especially if there is a decent body of them to be found (so you can compare them to each-other, makes for good reference material). The thing I seem to get about must research (not everyone does) is that the research (aria itself) and many aspects of it are directly (or at least in part) a product of the researchers themselves. Making first hand experimentation the only way to attain atleast as much true knowledge/first hand understanding as the author of the paper is claiming to offer (otherwise you are accepting what is essentially opinion, or what they want you to think as fact) The scientific method calls for repeatable unbiased results (this bay nature requires much independent testing). 

I think with technology we have become better "informed" and less "intelligent" we can Google/Wiki something and accept what we find as fact (even pass it of as such), but who actually "learned" anything in the process? All you have done is become better informed of the "accepted wisdom" or "conventional view".. Without effort towards "creative problem solving" in an attempt to glean any sort of personal incite there is no opportunity to hone the intellectual aspect of our mind (get a real education). 
This is where the masses get manipulated. We have grown far too domesticated now, lazy and accepting... (at this rate one day we may evolve to bare a mighty fine fleece) With our mediocre educational standards and utter lack of critical thinking we have conveniently blurred the line between informed and intelligent to spare our own personal feelings (and create an ever more docile next generation for that "lucky" 1-2% of us to manipulate for our/their own personal gain). Consequentially I don't just want to be informed, I want to be knowledgeable too..


----------



## drewbot (Jan 4, 2012)

Well I think that the only advice I would give you right now is to understand what you're working with. Many hormones are not stable in aqueous solution, so you get a lot of info out of agar solutions but they might not be useful to you. Also you can foliar feed the hormones if needed. Each of these ideas needs to be checked according to stability and activity in solution or at a given pH and how that will interact with the plant. It's useful to get literature together and start comparing, but don't assume that you can replace decades of lab technique and command of the given art, so although I commend you for taking on a big task I am trying to politely warn you to keep it really simple. Notice the difference in hormone therapy in 5 different cultivars that I linked to you. Strip all of the variables you can. 

Although I won't claim to know much at all about this field, I will give you an idea on how I approach it. I'm a biochemical engineer and a chemist, but so far all of my tests have been on a hormone or two versus no hormone or growth regulator at all. I'm using a variety of cultivars as well which is the other variable. Actually I'm stress testing them so I'm killing most of them off in one form or another. Before I figure out how to get them to thrive I am learning how to kill 'em. In my opinion your approach is a bit complicated. You aren't the first person to want to make a large flowering mass, either. Many of these hormones are stuffed in commercial mediums but many are not stable, so your best bet is to start with IAA and figure out a delivery method that is stable, and double check that against a standard (no hormone). Then work up from there... HTH


----------



## Guile (Jan 4, 2012)

drewbot said:


> Well I think that the only advice I would give you right now is to understand what you're working with. Many hormones are not stable in aqueous solution, so you get a lot of info out of agar solutions but they might not be useful to you. Also you can foliar feed the hormones if needed. Each of these ideas needs to be checked according to stability and activity in solution or at a given pH and how that will interact with the plant. It's useful to get literature together and start comparing, but don't assume that you can replace decades of lab technique and command of the given art, so although I commend you for taking on a big task I am trying to politely warn you to keep it really simple. Notice the difference in hormone therapy in 5 different cultivars that I linked to you. Strip all of the variables you can.
> 
> Although I won't claim to know much at all about this field, I will give you an idea on how I approach it. I'm a biochemical engineer and a chemist, but so far all of my tests have been on a hormone or two versus no hormone or growth regulator at all. I'm using a variety of cultivars as well which is the other variable. Actually I'm stress testing them so I'm killing most of them off in one form or another. Before I figure out how to get them to thrive I am learning how to kill 'em. In my opinion your approach is a bit complicated. You aren't the first person to want to make a large flowering mass, either. Many of these hormones are stuffed in commercial mediums but many are not stable, so your best bet is to start with IAA and figure out a delivery method that is stable, and double check that against a standard (no hormone). Then work up from there... HTH


I agree (I've been a little ambitious) I believe I may have bitten off more than I can chew (especially for a first bite)..

I am under the impression that the use of a single hormone (like IAA) can yield predictable results on its own, some of which might be undesirable to the ultimate goal. 
Would you find it reasonable to combine its usage (in variable ratios/concentrations) with other hormones in an attempt to counteract some of the less desirable affect's? I know that I am complicating things at this point (muddying the waters so to speak) making it harder to completely appreciate the fullest scope of each components affect but it seems like a useful time saver (as something will likely have to be done to curb things like stretch do to cellular elongation anyway) 

I think a big flaw in my approach so far is that I keep assuming that I want to "treat" one undesirable condition with another "pill" so to speak. and its just becoming a convoluted "over-medication" going into it..

I think you are right, I have a feeling that my next series of tests should be with individual or simple combinations of relatively few hormones, using smaller test groups to accommodate more testing simultaneously. That would allow better understanding of individual components (or groups) before mixing them in more complex concoctions.

I would love to hear more about the incites you have gleaned from your testing so far, some of the hormones/amino acids I have read about more recently sound as though they can aide a plant in being more stress resistant (I assume these are the hormones you are working with?).

How would you recommend keeping IAA in a stable aqueous solution?


----------



## Guile (Jan 4, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> If this works like steroids, perhaps there might be the same problem where natural production of some of these hormones might slow down or stop?


Biased on some of the reading I have done it seems that could very well be the case. I'm under the impression that at-least some plants can become tolerant to some hormones (obviously this could apply more broadly than that statement may seem to imply).

Part of/some of my earlier research/experimentation's actually dealt with animal hormones, a big part of managing a hormone supplementation program is dealing with the natural feedback/response of the body (over time producing less to no natural hormone, becoming more tolerant of the artificially elevated levels, and elevating other less desirable hormone levels as a consequence of how they degrade/convert/metabolize). Improperly managed "hormone therapy" can lead to severely negative repercussions upon its termination (conclusion) as a product. Most animals exposed to artificially elevated hormones for more than a couple-few months often remain on them for the rest of their lives.


----------



## Guile (Jan 4, 2012)

Three of the 4 hormones used in the "INFLUENCE OF CULTIVAR, EXPLANT SOURCE AND PLANT GROWTH
REGULATOR ON CALLUS INDUCTION AND PLANT REGENERATION
OF CANNABIS SATIVA L." study were Auxins. (2 of which I don't think are found in nature, and I'm finding little about their use other than as herbicides). It seemed like much of the testing was focused on the Auxins (even pairing them together) rather than the Cytokinins that seemed to only be included in about 1/3 of the testing and only ever paired with NAA.

Are there resources that make comprehensive comparisons dealing with the effects of different hormones? For instance comparing Cytokinins like 6-furfurylaminopurine (KIN) and 6-Benzylaminopurine (BAP), or Auxins like Indole-3-acetic acid (IAA) and 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D)?

In regards to the Shoot formation from the Induction of callus on the petiole tissue, does that imply that under the right circumstances you could essentially grow a second branch at each node by removing the fan leaf (or would you have to remove the branch too in order to reach the correct tissue)?


----------



## drewbot (Jan 4, 2012)

Guile said:


> Three of the 4 hormones used in the "INFLUENCE OF CULTIVAR, EXPLANT SOURCE AND PLANT GROWTH
> REGULATOR ON CALLUS INDUCTION AND PLANT REGENERATION
> OF CANNABIS SATIVA L." study were Auxins. (2 of which I don't think are found in nature, and I'm finding little about their use other than as herbicides). It seemed like much of the testing was focused on the Auxins (even pairing them together) rather than the Cytokinins that seemed to only be included in about 1/3 of the testing and only ever paired with NAA.
> 
> ...


prepare stock solution of IAA: http://gantlet.org/protocols/iaap.pdf
that's just an example. read the MSDS sheets and generally whatever you can find on sigma aldrich website, and phytotechlab.com. That's a start. It's stable enough on its own so pH it how you like. KOH being preferred for a couple of reasons *read the sheets*

to answer your questions there are resources that compare the cytokins and the auxins on their own, which is the major body of research. Most cannabis related material comes out of university of mississippi. If you have a good college library and you are a student you can get access to them. Off the top of my head TDZ is the hot sh1t for cannabis. Also it makes the plant produce a TON of shoots at the right concentration. Anything above the right concentration and you see some of the complexities of competitive, noncompetitive, and uncompetitive binding between hormones. 

Using TDZ at the right level will produce 5x the shoots that the plant would otherwise have made. At the required dose its cheap as hell, too.

edit: that is the last hint i'm going to give out on TDZ. the literature is stuffed full of it and it's no secret but i'm not hand feeding any solutions out- your answer is to dick around with TDZ + cytokinin + giberellin. Perhaps only 2 at first. Watch out for plant life stages, shoots, roots, photosynthesis, and chlorophyll production. It's not a simple task. You won't get past the veg state before you get in over your head, so beware.


----------



## Guile (Jan 4, 2012)

drewbot said:


> prepare stock solution of IAA: http://gantlet.org/protocols/iaap.pdf
> that's just an example. read the MSDS sheets and generally whatever you can find on sigma aldrich website, and phytotechlab.com. That's a start. It's stable enough on its own so pH it how you like. KOH being preferred for a couple of reasons *read the sheets*
> 
> to answer your questions there are resources that compare the cytokins and the auxins on their own, which is the major body of research. Most cannabis related material comes out of university of mississippi. If you have a good college library and you are a student you can get access to them. Off the top of my head TDZ is the hot sh1t for cannabis. Also it makes the plant produce a TON of shoots at the right concentration. Anything above the right concentration and you see some of the complexities of competitive, noncompetitive, and uncompetitive binding between hormones.
> ...


I think the CAS registry and MSDS are 2 of the most useful sources of information for me when it comes to cross referencing, comparing, and finding out what is in alot of the things I come across in my searches..

Unfortunately I'm not in school anymore, and left under relatively tense circumstances. I'm lucky I didn't end up in trouble/walk away with a bill (I think they worried it would have been too much of an embarrassment, as I was the youngest student ever admitted and at their highest scholarship level to boot). Don't get me wrong, that sounds different than I mean. I simply wasn't who they expected me to be, and I pretty much bombed out while having too much fun, so I don't think they will allow me to use their resources anymore..

Now TZD is a Cytokinin isn't it (or it behaves like one?), and you warned about too close a node spacing (before your edit, didn't you, otherwise i read it elsewhere?) so that would seem to imply that the best 2 part solution would likely incorporate the Giberellin (to encourage stretching between nodes)  
With a starting point around 5-10ppm TZD? and a greater quantity of GA (up to 5 times as much?)




(and around 10-20ppm 2,4-D respectively for a study on fruit anyway)
Though I have a feeling that you were referring to Kinetin (6-Furfurylaminopurine) as the other Cytokinin being that it was involved in the study you referenced earlier. BA looks to be responsible for more "new shoots" in a couple studies I've recently read.


----------



## Green Revolution (Jan 4, 2012)

This discussion dances on the edges of my comprehension, but I am tracking as best as I can. I am also very interested in the effects of triacontanol, cytokinins and other PGR's; Admittedly, I am just beginning to learn about the subject. I used to post on another online forum where a member by the handle of DizzleKush was conducting various tests. He left a link for his conclusive results. I am still learning how to decipher much of the scientific terminology, but hopefully this will help contribute to the topic at hand..

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4835054&postcount=146


----------



## Guile (Jan 4, 2012)

Green Revolution said:


> This discussion dances on the edges of my comprehension, but I am tracking as best as I can. I am also very interested in the effects of triacontanol, cytokinins and other PGR's; Admittedly, I am just beginning to learn about the subject. I used to post on another online forum where a member by the handle of DizzleKush was conducting various tests. He left a link for his conclusive results. I am still learning how to decipher much of the scientific terminology, but hopefully this will help contribute to the topic at hand..
> 
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4835054&postcount=146


 Same here man, this is education by immersion, (if you don't drown you inherently learn to swim)..

Some of the papers I reed have me looking up things just to grasp the significance of a name or process I am otherwise unfamiliar with to that point..

the http://phytotechlab.com/ and http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/united-states.html are pretty cool.this looks interesting _Cytokinin Activity Induced by Thidiazuron_ wish I could find 
Yip and Yang (1986) and Thomas and Katterman (1986) I have a feeling they make interesting reads too. Here is an interesting 3 part solution 


I just tend to "google" or "Wiki" a hormone name and start cross referencing everything I find. MSDS CAS Common/product names other related and similar hormones/products.. I book mark alot of stuff for future reference too (partly because I often have a dozen pages open at a time looking at even a narrow cross section of information relating to whatever I'm checking out at the time)..


----------



## Green Revolution (Jan 4, 2012)

Guile said:


> This may sound odd but I enjoy reading research/white papers, especially if there is a decent body of them to be found (so you can compare them to each-other, makes for good reference material). The thing I seem to get about must research (not everyone does) is that the research (aria itself) and many aspects of it are directly (or at least in part) a product of the researchers themselves. Making first hand experimentation the only way to attain atleast as much true knowledge/first hand understanding as the author of the paper is claiming to offer (otherwise you are accepting what is essentially opinion, or what they want you to think as fact) The scientific method calls for repeatable unbiased results (this bay nature requires much independent testing).
> 
> I think with technology we have become better "informed" and less "intelligent" we can Google/Wiki something and accept what we find as fact (even pass it of as such), but who actually "learned" anything in the process? All you have done is become better informed of the "accepted wisdom" or "conventional view".. Without effort towards "creative problem solving" in an attempt to glean any sort of personal incite there is no opportunity to hone the intellectual aspect of our mind (get a real education).
> This is where the masses get manipulated. We have grown far too domesticated now, lazy and accepting... (at this rate one day we may evolve to bare a mighty fine fleece) With our mediocre educational standards and utter lack of critical thinking we have conveniently blurred the line between informed and intelligent to spare our own personal feelings (and create an ever more docile next generation for that "lucky" 1-2% of us to manipulate for our/their own personal gain). Consequentially I don't just want to be informed, I want to be knowledgeable too..


Yeah, as a guy with a degree in a completely different field, it can be is a lot to swallow. I need a couple classes to get properly up to speed, but until then I can always educate myself. 

Luckily, I know exactly what you were saying in the quote above. Sadly, I can't help but agree that the inquisitive mind is certainly becoming a much rarer creature these days.


----------



## drewbot (Jan 5, 2012)

You are pretty good at digging up references that's for sure. Care to share that one? We'll trade. I don't have much on 2,4-D on cannabis but the one piece I do have looks impressive. You can use like 20:1 GA:TZD. I don't know what TZD conc'n to start with. 

One cool way to test your formula is to use a brix refractometer. Perhaps someone would like to check this reference because I read it in a real life paper book: foliar application will result in a change in brix reading within 2 hours signifying nutrient uptake. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


----------



## Guile (Jan 5, 2012)

drewbot said:


> You are pretty good at digging up references that's for sure. Care to share that one? We'll trade. I don't have much on 2,4-D on cannabis but the one piece I do have looks impressive. You can use like 20:1 GA:TZD. I don't know what TZD conc'n to start with.
> 
> One cool way to test your formula is to use a brix refractometer. Perhaps someone would like to check this reference because I read it in a real life paper book: foliar application will result in a change in brix reading within 2 hours signifying nutrient uptake. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


Which one are you after? http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/01140670709510200 is the one about Kiwi fruit.. I found another about Papayas but i think it used Dicamba or Picloram instead of 2.4-D.

On a different forum (in fact I think it was one you mentioned) I read something about GA actually delaying/inhibiting the onset of flowering in cannabis plants which is not what I am use to seeing. I hope that whomever stated that was mistaken, otherwise I am, and it would force me to come to alot more understandings than I have currently been in pursuit of...

Most of what I am finding about cannabis seems to deal with basically cloning plants from cells found in the nodes. Their rooting, growth, and proliferation of growing tips. I'm sure the results of these tissue culture tests can be directly translatable to "established plant" growth however I hate taking things like that for granted (making assumptions like that).


----------



## Afka (Jan 5, 2012)

For fucks sake before using dicamba(2,4-d) as a growth inhibitor, how about you just drop the temps. Guess what they'll be nice and squat.


----------



## drewbot (Jan 5, 2012)

The problem I'm currently working on is rooting ex vitro shoots that have been dosed with TDZ in vitro. It seems as though the success is not very good, but IBA provides my best chance. I am going to start by fogging the rootzone with IBA. I don't know what conc'n yet. I'm going to foliar with IBA as well. Aside from that I'm at a loss. Any suggestions?


----------



## Guile (Jan 6, 2012)

Afka said:


> For fucks sake before using dicamba(2,4-d) as a growth inhibitor, how about you just drop the temps. Guess what they'll be nice and squat.


Please don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to pull a superiority trip here (I'm just learning about this stuff myself).

It seems that DICAMBA is actually 3,6-Dichloro-o-anisic Acid 
And 2,4-d is 2,4-DICHLOROPHENOXYACETIC ACID

Here is a comparison of the 2 on sugar cane
Here is a comparison of 2,4-D, Dicamba, and Picloram on soy beans (though clearly at/around herbicidal levels)

I'm only pointing this out because I find this to be pretty complicated (overwhelming) to start with, confusing things together would only make it worse.

Another thought (speculatively speaking) I believe both Dicamba and 2,4-d are Auxin/growth promoters. I know it seems counter intuitive being that both are used as herbicides (in higher doses) but I believe the action responsible for this is essentially rapid, uncontrolled, abnormal, cell growth (like cancer in animal bodies) Which can result in the blockage of phloem vascular tissue. Ultimately the plant is killed by starvation resulting form an inability to translocate needed energy in the phloem. (like a stroke/vascular blockage in animal bodies).

Its the Cytokinins used in many of these cocktails that seems to be the component responsible for focusing the plants growth horizontally as apposed to vertically. Though Triacontanol (mentioned a bit earlier) has also been described as offsetting the effects of GA (Gibberellic acid) which is known to cause cellular elongation (stretiching).

So far I would speculate that the biggest advantages of Auxins like 2,4-D, Dicamba, and Picloram over IAA (Indole-3-Acetic Acid) would be their mobility/water solubility and relatively low cost at effective concentrations. Though some of my reading seems to suggest that Dicamba can promote more "shoot tips" than other Auxins when compared for that purpose (though may be a product of node activity), I rarely see Dicamba used in conjunction with the Cytokinin Thidiazuron (TDZ) which would seem to be attributed with a similar quality when compared to its "pear group" so to speak. 
I wonder if the combination of TDZ and Dicamba leads to uncontrolled (non uniform) growth in this aria. 

Plant regeneration from cocoyam callus derived from shoot tips and petioles
The abstract seems to indicate that the combination of these hormones favor the "node" more than the "growing tip". Being that there is generally a growing tip at every node, having a greater number of nodes seems like it would be a good thing (Denser buds/shorter fuller plants) If that is in fact what could be drawn from it. Unfortunately I don't have access to the full document and am still unclear how well these plant tissue cultures translate to "established" plant growth.


----------



## Guile (Jan 6, 2012)

drewbot said:


> You are pretty good at digging up references that's for sure. Care to share that one? We'll trade. I don't have much on 2,4-D on cannabis but the one piece I do have looks impressive. You can use like 20:1 GA:TZD. I don't know what TZD conc'n to start with.
> 
> One cool way to test your formula is to use a brix refractometer. Perhaps someone would like to check this reference because I read it in a real life paper book: foliar application will result in a change in brix reading within 2 hours signifying nutrient uptake. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


Reference material is usually the best starting point for experimentation (gives you an idea of where you should begin your experiments).

2,4-D seems to show up alot, I have a feeling its advantages are greater than I fully appreciate at this point, unfortunately not knowing I cant say what they might be..

1mg per liter seems to be like 1ppm and I think the concentrations of TDZ commonly used in cannabis related study's are between 0.1 and 5.0 with 1 showing up most commonly. that would seem to make your ratio 20:1 likely 20ppm GA and 1ppm TDZ (though half-twice concentration would seem reasonable too). I'd speculate that if you were to add an Auxin like 2,4-D, Dicamba, or Picloram you would likely want to lower the ratio of GA/Cytokinsns in order to reduce stretching brought on be the cellular elongation of the GA in favor of the cellular division/expansion brought on by the Auxin something like 1/15/1 (2/30/2) Reducing the GA may also have the affect of reducing its influence on Flowering and fruit set (developing seedless fruit). 

To remedy this/encourage/induce flowering it seems like a combination of amino acids 100ppm? ATCA (N-acetyl-thiazolidine-4-carboxylic acid) and 100-200ppm Fulvic acid might get you back to where you want to be. Though I would likely keep the amino acid solution separate from the other hormones, not only to make it easier to tweak each of the cocktails independently but also the application of the amino acids are likely to be more frequent (speculatively speaking of course).

Otherwise referencing the earlier "fruit" study's (but scaling to levels more commonly seen in cannabis study's) it would be like 2ppm TDZ, 10ppm GA, and 4ppm Dicamba (concentrations of well over 50ppm GA are commonly tested and any adjustments made would likely be in that direction, my intuition at this point says closer to 20-30ppm)

Another thought on why an Auxin may not be used in your recipe, would be that perhaps the affect of Auxins are predominantly focused on vegetative growth forcing the plant to utilize recesses that might otherwise be available for flowering..
Though this study "*The Dual Role of Auxin in Flowering*" would seem to indicate that should not be a concern.


----------



## Guile (Jan 6, 2012)

drewbot said:


> The problem I'm currently working on is rooting ex vitro shoots that have been dosed with TDZ in vitro. It seems as though the success is not very good, but IBA provides my best chance. I am going to start by fogging the rootzone with IBA. I don't know what conc'n yet. I'm going to foliar with IBA as well. Aside from that I'm at a loss. Any suggestions?


The insert I got with my IBA seems to imply that a concentration of 50ppm should be sufficient for both single spray or long soak methods, Keep in mind that all other recommendations made in these inserts seem to be excessive.. Perhaps something more like 10-20ppm would be more suitable especially if there is going to be long-term or repeated exposure.

Looks like Walnuts do well at 5-40ppm 

Perhaps you can clarify for me just how translatable these tissue culture tests are to the application of established plants (having a complete root/circulatory system). All I really see is maybe at the concentrations tested a plant should be able to handle constant/continuous exposure to the hormone?

What scale do you use? I own a Gempro 250 that I picked up for a different project (best compromise to be had at the time). These are supposed to be accurate to 1mg which to me means you should never trust it below 2mg but preferably more like 5mg (leaving a 20% margin of accuracy). making minimum "accurate" test batches over a gallon. (1gal 42oz) otherwise over 2.5gal to obtain accuracy within 10% (assuming 1ppm target)

How is your stress hormone testing coming along? I have some sativa influenced hybrids that are a little more sensitive than I like. If I ever plan to successfully tame "true Sativas" to accommodate my growing methods I have a feeling stress resistance is going to be another major consideration to keep in mind.
I found this while looking for info about ATCA Mixtures and methods for the induction of resistance in plants


----------



## drewbot (Jan 8, 2012)

I have a lot of work to do this week with TC. Basically all week... anyways the translation is hard to make because with TC your tissues are undifferentiated and you can basically boss the plant around. With the ex vitro plant you're nudging the plant with hormones and it will try to reach stasis again, whereas TC will just do what you tell it and that level of TDZ will boss around any natural auxin which is why values above 0.5 micrograms per liter is about at the max level. Also the diffusive forces are much more prevalent in a liquid solution than in a gel, so obviously the plant gets an initial shot when transplanted but then it wanes off naturally, which is why i'm having a problem predicting what happens when i take an unrooted cutting out of culture after it is soaked in TDZ. I will be dealing with this problem all week, and I need to get the plant to snap out of it properly. In other words, I will know god damn well how TC and ex vitro are related in very short time because I have to. 

Oh and my scale.. well it's not mine. It's good though. The local police used to use this scale to weigh in drugs that they seized. This is where I have/may/do work  I'm testing out my hash right now so I'll see how much sense I made in the morning, but stay tuned for TC experiment. I have hundreds of plants in beer cups I was using for node sacrifice but i'm just going to mess them up with hormones now. Must make room for the army of agar jars. I have seen 2,4-d and dicamba both "win" to some degree in affecting the plant in some way that I was not interested in, so I would have to go back and look, but I ordered them because they are so DAMN CHEAP i figured i'd toss it in a cocktail and make some callus tissue - perhaps attempt somatic embryogenesis which is yet to be recorded for cannabis that I know of. Oh and once I figure out the whole aventitious bud formation then GAME OVER! I'm growin nugz in suspension culture. Growin weed out of thin air eh? Anyone else got the balls to get that going? No plant to tell it when to start, stop.. just your imagination and alchemy *poof*. Smoking too much reefer... eh? Nah I've paid my dues went to school for a long time and been in this game dealing with the biggest idiots I could imagine so I'm taking the game to another level and cashing in. Bet your ass. The big show is yet to come. Synthetic seeds, cloning autoflowers, recombinant gene expression, all with homemade lab equipment out of old stereos and computers, car parts.. oh and dedication. Anyone want in on an IPO I can use the loot?


----------



## Guile (Jan 8, 2012)

Fractions of micrograms (not milligrams, I would have to be making solutions on the scale of swimming pools just to be accurate)... I can't even imagine working at those scales with the equipment I have a hold of.. Does this include the 20:1 GA to TZD solution you mentioned earlier?

This is going to sound ultra simplistic (forgive me I'm pretty stoned) but it was one of the ideas that first got me looking at hormones. 
The idea was to buy some plant gel then add hormones and nutrient in the appropriate ratio so all you had do do was add water and a cutting. Assuming appropriate environmental control you would have a plant with roots in reasonable time.. I have since come to think that foliage applications might allow me more control.

That would allow you to root in a gel (similar environment to the culturing gels) while having a clean slate to apply new hormones to in the attempt to manipulate the plant in a new direction.

In regards to hormone levels wearing off, isn't this where regular foliage feeding of the plant might become beneficial?

I hope you don't take offense to all my questions and speculations, its really the best way I know to learn from someone. I may just be a "shade tree mechanic" so to speak, but I do appreciate your incite and investment in elevating my understandings.. 
If it makes you feel better I'll buy a share (assuming they aren't too pricy).. Do stock holders get pre-release access to the imaginary bud technology?

I think things are going to travel in some interesting directions once you get people experimenting and sharing their results.. Ofcurse when i first heard of aeronautics I figured everyone would be doing that before long, here we are quite a while latter and I'm not even doing it myself..
I see some interesting implications whenever a study describes the expression of a desirable quality in subsequent generations, I have a feeling that one day seed banks will have offerings that are the product of hormonally influenced mothers and maybe the seeds themselves will be treated before you receive them. Once upon a time people didn't think feminized seeds would take off the way they have..

By the way, you might be surprised with what can be made from bits of other stuff. Everything you have ever seen with your naked eye or laid your bare hands on, its all been recycled somehow (and you don't have to tear something down to the molecular level to re-purpose it effectively)

Getting back to my earlier experiments, I have noticed that the vegetative growth of my test plants has become less pronounced especially in the scope of internodal elongation (my plants are stretching) mind you that there have been no additional hormone treatments since test 2. this would imply to me that the GA has a longer half life than then the Cytokinins used (6-BAP) otherwise the plants are becoming more tolerant of it. Consequentially the main cola buds of my most mature test plants have become quite "airy". The top most flowers of the most mature plants from test 1 have not completely normalized retaining the fat hair quality though they are becoming longer in nature many have a rough/bumpy appearance. (i would assume this might be a product of some of the Auxins used or their concentrations)


----------



## drewbot (Jan 8, 2012)

Guile said:


> Does this include the 20:1 GA to TZD solution you mentioned earlier?


Sure! except don't get hung up on the numbers. Stretch can be a good thing for cuttings or shoots alone, so remember the application...


> This is going to sound ultra simplistic (forgive me I'm pretty stoned) but it was one of the ideas that first got me looking at hormones.
> The idea was to buy some plant gel then add hormones and nutrient in the appropriate ratio so all you had do do was add water and a cutting. Assuming appropriate environmental control you would have a plant with roots in reasonable time.. I have since come to think that foliage applications might allow me more control.


For the diffusion problem mentioned before, gel is only good because it is well studied and it holds a plant up to some degree.


> In regards to hormone levels wearing off, isn't this where regular foliage feeding of the plant might become beneficial?


That's the idea



> Do stock holders get pre-release access to the imaginary bud technology?


That's insider trading! 



> ...seed banks will have offerings that are the product of hormonally influenced mothers and maybe the seeds themselves will be treated before you receive them. Once upon a time people didn't think feminized seeds would take off the way they have..


Yep that's the idea. You can program a synthetic seed to carry disease resistance. It's a short crop, so you can time release preservatives. See salicylic acid for one.


----------



## Guile (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm about to harvest the table containing the most mature test plants so I want to collect the best data I can using what's available to me. What I was thinking about doing is using chloroformto get the most pure THC extraction (from what I understand chloroformwill dissolve less chlorophyll and plant sugars than alcohol). 
This way I can compare each of the 2 treated rows with the untreated ones.

Its my understanding that I should oven dry (250 degrees for up to 2 hours) each test group before running it through a food processor (stems and all to a coarse chop)

My first question is should I then use isopropyl alcohol (30 min soak then strain) and distill off as much alcohol as possible (using a double boiler containing water) before redissolving in the chloroform, separating out the solution and distilling again?

Also Should I use a cold press to extract the solvent from the plant material, or would that just be excessive? (I have a 50 ton hydraulic press I can outfit with something like a cooking pot drilled for drainage and a pie tin to catch the run off)

How much a concern is heat? everything I have been reading seems to try and keep temperatures at or under 250F for 2 hours or less. Should I be limiting overall heat exposure or just limiting the temperatures at which its exposed? (Chloroformhas a boiling point of only 142F)

Last but not least anyone have leads on cheap glassware? I've acquired some in the past via ebay (for other projects) but over time most everything has gotten broken from improper storage. If I'm going to use chloroform I have a feeling I might need something better than an old crock pot, 4L Gallo wine bottle, and 3/8" copper coil in a home made "cold can" using rubber tubing to make the seals. Or would my crude "old school" distillation rig work sufficiently assuming the right seals are found? (Is there any particular sealing material I should use when using chloroform?)


----------



## drewbot (Jan 16, 2012)

Trying to compare THC levels? Use thin layer chromatography. There are test kits all over the internet.


----------



## Guile (Jan 16, 2012)

drewbot said:


> Trying to compare THC levels? Use thin layer chromatography. There are test kits all over the internet.


The thing is I want to compare total yield of THC 
I'm establishing an "Overall performance" approach to comparison. Its really the most significant comparison that can be crudely made.

Don't get me wrong I am going to have to work on methods to measure other Cannabinoids as well but I planned on waiting until I began an experiment involving then directly before I crossed that bridge so to speak. However in the interest of lead research what are the strains known for producing the highest relative CBN and/or CBD concentrations?


----------



## drewbot (Jan 16, 2012)

cbn- ruderelis varietals except for lowrider crosses
cbd- cannatonic and harlequin, followed by green crack

total yield is percent THC * dry mass. Still more accurate with the TLC unless you know how to do preferential extractions of paraffins (activated carbon chromatography). There are plenty of ways to do plant extraction. Why chloroform? What about pentane/hexane?


----------



## Guile (Jan 17, 2012)

drewbot said:


> cbn- ruderelis varietals except for lowrider crosses
> cbd- cannatonic and harlequin, followed by green crack
> 
> total yield is percent THC * dry mass. Still more accurate with the TLC unless you know how to do preferential extractions of paraffins (activated carbon chromatography). There are plenty of ways to do plant extraction. Why chloroform? What about pentane/hexane?


I'm not at all apposed to Hexane, might be interesting to have around for other experiments (one of the appealing quality's of Chloroform). It just seems to be a little more expensive per gallon. Would it make for a more pure extract? or be easier to work with?

For economy's sake I keep seeing "Colman fuel" mentioned (Naptha/white gas) though I am unclear if it needs to be distilled before hand (assumingly to remove impurity's) or the "THC extract" has to be washed (for the same reason) however I have seen internet posts that imply that neither is necessary

I plan to record the gross weight at harvest, the dry weight (after a couple hours in a 250f oven) and the total extract obtained.
I think these will give me the best overall collection of data points to make comparisons as my hormone treated plants have both more height and foliage though the buds are quite fluffy. 

I fear that testing a sample bud from the tops of plants my not give a test result that is accurate to overall THC production as there might be more THC found in the foliage of one group of plants, I also find it unlikely that the lower popcorn buds will yield identical THC content per mass of bud as the upper cola. This reason alone makes measuring the plant as a single mass more appealing to me.

Additionally I am a medical marijuana care provider and I want to get my medicine to my patents.. I see many advantages to making a pure (or nearly pure) THC extract:
!, I have been dosing my plants with hormones, I would like to wash away as much of that as possible (peace of mind)
2, The laws that govern how I provide medicine count extracts gram for gram as "marijuana" allowing me alot more freedom
3, Isolating the purest form of the desired cannabinoids will make it appear more pharmaceutical in nature (lending to medical credibility)
4, Once I figure out how to isolate nearly pure CBN and CBD I will be afforded the possibility of mixing the ideal cocktail for my patents needs while at the same time cutting my ridiculous overhead (2 dozen strains currently) down to perhaps under a half dozen strains that I can more ideally accommodate rather than coming to compromises that suit all (a true compromise is where everything suffers equally).

Eventually what I would like to achieve would be to make like 3-4mm spherical pills containing a single dose of a given THC/CBD/CBN ratio that could be ingested orally (as a pill or infusion) smoked/vaporized or taken as a suppository (if desired). It would likely be the kind of thing that finally gives marijuana the medical recognition and credibility it needs (making it just like every other pharmaceutical drug that occasionally gets misused) 

I'm sure at some point a real pharmaceutical company will pick up on the idea and synthesize all the most active cannabinoids to circumvent the hassles of growing and extraction but somebody has got to lead the way.. might as well make it a hick like me (that way its a slap in the face to anyone who had the resources to do it right and just chose not to). 
I would love to see the pharmaceutical company's competing with the "natural extract" industry at all levels. If we lightened "drug regulations" and allowed "domestic" pharmaceutical companies to compete within all drug trade, we could put the drug cartels out of business (at least the ones operation on our soil) while creating American jobs, freeing up resources that could be focused on our real issues, and make decent national security a far more reasonable venture.


----------



## Guile (Jan 19, 2012)

I think I figured out what the flower mutation is.. the hairs of the flowers are turning into leaves, they don't have any color yet (they are still while) however their structure is becoming distinguishable. The table containing these plants will be harvested in the next few days and I am going to try to get my help to bring a digital camera (or phone at least). 

This hair/leaf mutation would be neat to recreate on a slow maturing strain (to see how far it could go).


----------



## Joedank (Jan 19, 2012)

Forgot about this thread but for hormones and such I have changed up a little;

First month of flower : sol. Kelp 2ml per 4L h2o
Second month: 5ml alfalfa meal tea . 2ml kelp. 4Lh20
End: final by yellow bottle: the perfect organic mix of tricon and other pgr's it has helped yields alot...
Spray every four days... Sometimes adding neem or oregano oils.. And sm-90 as a sufuricant ... 
Look into biobrass-16 it has crazy affects on yeilds but I can seem to buy it anywhere


----------



## Guile (Jan 20, 2012)

Joedank said:


> Forgot about this thread but for hormones and such I have changed up a little;
> 
> First month of flower : sol. Kelp 2ml per 4L h2o
> Second month: 5ml alfalfa meal tea . 2ml kelp. 4Lh20
> ...


Any chance you could link me some of the products/information you reference?

I found a little on the brassinosteroid (analog) biobrass-16 (BB-16) but mostly dealing with tomatoes, rice and tropical fruit (so far anyway). How translatable are the results seen in "fruit" to that of pot? I see alot of stuff that seems to have great commercial applications when it comes to fruit, when applied to cannabis can improvements be expected in flower yield, seedless bud production, or aide in ripening?


----------



## Guile (Jan 22, 2012)

I think I'm finally going to let this beast die... At very least the current test batch..
Though I'm harvesting the first table from it in the next couple days, my help doesn't have a camera to share for this use and I still have not ironed out a decent method to obtain my THC extract (I'm not liking the different alcohol extracts I've been trying and I haven't been able to explore petroleum based solvents). They are just going to get trimmed and dried like any other harvest (though I may segregate/label the individual rows to compare dry weights).

I think I want to give Brassinolide, Triacontanol, and N-Acetyl Thiazolidine Carboxylic Acid (NATCA) a try on the next table...

Though I think a combination ofCytokinins, Auxins, and Gibberellins could be exceedingly useful. I also think the 1:20:1 ratio using 0.5-1ppm TDZ and 2,4-D with 10-20ppm GA (maybe GA4, I've seen something that seems to indicate it might influence flowering more) would be something along the right lines. I know the GA seems low but I have recently seen it suggested at 50ppm to induce hermaphrodisum in pot plants Besides the only earthly reason for mixing this many things together is in an attempt of finding that "synergistic effect" you read about. That having been said, if you succeed a little will bit should go a long ways (right?).

My head hurts from this stuff... literally... I have no idea what ratios to use with the stuff I have on hand and there seems to be a huge public concern over most the "strictly synthetic" plant growth regulators... Atleast BAP and IAA are naturally occurring as well as Brassinolide, Triacontanol, and Gibberellins..


----------



## Bonkleesha (Jan 24, 2012)

remember that IAA is naturally occuring, and IBA is synthetyc. i bookmarked this to finish the thread later, but i was reading u put something about switching out for another. bad idea. our plants will tolerate alot less IBA than IAA.


----------



## Bonkleesha (Jan 24, 2012)

also, i wouldntthink much in terms of high auxins if you have healthy mothers. auxins help with advantageous formations, while the cytokynins will help with bud proliferation and things like that. i healthy mother should have plenty of its own rooting hormones. a little auxin boost would be ok, but a big blast might just be a waste. however if ur moms are jangly, ur on the right track.


----------



## Guile (Jan 25, 2012)

Bonkleesha said:


> also, i wouldntthink much in terms of high auxins if you have healthy mothers. auxins help with advantageous formations, while the cytokynins will help with bud proliferation and things like that. i healthy mother should have plenty of its own rooting hormones. a little auxin boost would be ok, but a big blast might just be a waste. however if ur moms are jangly, ur on the right track.


I think it was a paper I had read, something like "the dual role of Auxins in flowering" that may have provoked me to over due the auxin thing, I have read somewhere that Gibberellins encourage Male flower production where Auxins favor female. Believing that the roles of different auxins were generally confined may have also inhibited a better understanding..

I think I had read somewhere that IBA is naturally occurring in a few plants, Salix (Willow) might be one. Though it does seem to be most closely associated with root development (which does seem unnecessary for a healthy established plant) 

Without any exact figures I can say at this point the Wappa exposed to only the second test yielded by far more "wet" than anything else on the table. This could be in part to its more centralized location on the table (receiving amongst the highest light concentrations of the table). However they did out preform the next row back (sharing similar light conditions).

The buds of the heaviest plants were very airy and hard to manicure having many bud leaves that were large enough to warrant full removal (rather than just tip trimming..

I believe I can now better appreciate the perspective shared earlier about focusing on "stress inhibitors" and want to compare results before reintroducing other hormones in future experiments (it will give me a chance to better understand the general landscape).

I think formulations like those we have been discussing here would most likely be more beneficial during early development/vegetation.. It seems these hormones are most productive when focused on a particular stage of development which may not particularly be "flowering" Though the role of Auxins/Gibberellins in flowering may work in the direction I would like, Its clear I need to better understand more specifically how they work first.

The anti stress hormones should be an experience in its own right as well.. I have a particular interest in Triacontanol which seems as though it might be difficult to keep in suspension (I read somewhere that "Canna Boost" might be an easy to work with Triacontanol product). 

Does anyone know if any Brassinolide or NATCA products on the market?


----------



## thedude27 (Feb 14, 2012)

Yes Brassinolide is(or was) on the market as I have some. I also have GA3, IBA, Benzylaminopurine, IAA, Triacontanol, and NAA. I think thats all of them.

I used to get all this stuff from supergrow.biz or something like that, last I heard the person that owned it went on sabbatical and I havent seen the site anymore. However, normal human beings can obtain these substances so look around I'm sure someone is selling it somewhere.

I have a bunch of information off their website that I saved related to dosing and performance on less controversial plants. I'll dump some of it here (I apologize about the formatting in advnace) for you.


----------



## thedude27 (Feb 14, 2012)

*Gibberellic acid 


is an important plant hormone used to improve seed germination and plant growth and size. Gibberellic acid can also influence the timing of flowering, flower gender and flower size. *


User Feedback
*Citrus*

*I sprayed GA3 (35ppm) on my citrus trees last week when they were starting to bloom. I checked them yesterday and they are all loaded with blooms. G.H. User Group March 31, 2005 9:24 PM *
*Lawn - GA3*

*1. I used a soil mix of 8 parts top soil, 2 cow manure, .5 peat, and .25 Perlite(Krum) @ 2-4 inches deep.*
*2. Sprayed lightly with a hose before covering the sewn grass seed.*
*3. I used stems from last years flowers that were like strong hay, criss-crossed them over the seeded moist soil mix, and then piled oak leaves 1-2 inches deep over that to create heat for the grass.*
*4. On late March early April near Chicago the 6th day of growth, I pulled off the cover and sprayed the grass in 3 diff locations full sun, part sun, and shady. I put the cover back on after spraying and 1-2 days later gave it a spritz of water. I sprayed GA3 3 days after that and then 2 days after that.*
*5. There was no presoak.*
*6. The temperature was approx. 50-70 F during the day and no lower than 45 F at night. 2 of the days it was 78-82 F. *
*So, from the 6th day of growing to 1.5 weeks of spraying 3 times later I have some good grass. The shady grass seemed to grow the quickest. It might have been because of a less variant temp. I tried the same areas last year without covering the seed, without special potting soil, and without spray GA3. *
*Super-Grow note: the gibberellic acid concentration was 35 PPM for each of the three sprayings. *
*User Group*
*Lilac - GA3*

*My new very small hybrid French lilacs are doing well as a result of regular spraying with roughly 50 ppm GA3 solution. *
*John M., User Group - June 2, 2005*
*Lilac - GA3 & Fulvic Acid*

*I have 3 lilac bushes. One is over 6 years, one is 5 years, and one is 2 years. The 5 year plant wouldn't bloom till I sprayed GA3 35-70 PPM 4 times along with 2x85 PPM of fulvic acid. *
*The 6 year one gave us only a couple blooms last year. This year after spraying GA3/Fulvic we have 30-50 blooms and the plant is about 15 feet tall. *
*J.T., User Group - June 2, 2005*
*Peppers, tomatoes - GA3*

*I tried a 70ppm solution of GA3 on 5 of my habanero pepper plants and on 5 each of my big boy and cherry tomato plants. After 3 weeks I couldn't see any difference between them and the other plants of the same type. I then used a 140ppm solution of GA3 on the same plants and now, 1 week later I can tell a major difference in the height of the treated plants as compared to the untreated ones and also the treated plants are beginning to bloom. *
*A.L., User Group - May 28, 2005*
*Rasberries - GA3*

*I have a patch, here in RI, water is very important too. If you are trying for a sudden boost use over 500ppm. If you want sustained growth improvement 50ppm is good. *
*Willy Wonka, User Group - May 5, 2005*
*Rasberries - GA3 & Fulvic Acid*

*I had some great results by spraying Raspberries also this year. We have 42 new shoots about 3-4 feet high after spraying 85 PPM Fulvic 2 times and GA3 35-70 PPM 5 times. We should have berries soon! We had enough berries last year to make 2 huge pies. I suspect we with get 5-6 pies this year. *
*J.T., User Group - June 6, 2005*
*Squash - GA3 & GrowTonic*

*My "Early White Bush Scallop" squash plants are massive! They were given GA3 at 300ppm 22 days after emerging and GrowTonic at 36 days. *
*User Group, July 17, 2005 7:50 PM*
*Tomatoes - GA3*

*I used GA3 at 150 PPM on my tomato plants 36 days after transplanting. That was June 28th. When I applied it I had only 2 "Early Girl" tomatoes the size of a pea showing. Quite a few flowers were about to open on both "Early Girls" and "German Johnsons" when I applied it. Here we are at 13 days after spraying and I have 75 tomatoes growing now!!! *
*Every plant that I've used GA3 on has responded very well. I've seen many gardens around here and no ones plants are bigger or stronger looking. [D.Z. West Virginia - July 11, 2005 - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gibberellic_acid/message/1351] *
*I noticed a big difference in my tomato plants after spraying them with a 200ppm of GA3. [D.S. - User Group January 8, 2005] *
*Miscellaneous*

*... things I've noticed about GA3 are that in general plants emerge faster from winter thaw to luscious greenness. I have 6 climbing flowering vines that greened up 2 weeks earlier than last year. The established tulips came up with multi-headed flowers that are extremely huge around. The new honeysuckle bulbs died right on queue, but the 3 year old honeysuckle is still blooming strong. I also was able to induce the troublesome Lilac to bloom this year. *

Frequently Asked Questions
*Introduction to Gibberellic Acid*

*1. What is Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
2. Is Gibberellic Acid An Organic Product?
3. How Does Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Help Plants?*
*Benefits of Using Gibberellic Acid*

*4. How Do I Use Gibberellic Acid (GA3) To Improve Seed Germination?
5. Does Seed Chilling In Distilled Water Also Affect Seed Germination?
6. What Is Seed Scaring And What Does It have To Do With Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
7. Can I Use Gibberellic Acid During Vegetating And Flowering?
8. How Do I Use Gibberellic Acid (GA3) To Generate Bigger Plants?
9. Can Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Induce Plants To Flower?
10. Can Gibberellic Acid Induce Bigger Flowers?
11. Can Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Induce More Flowers?
12. What Is The Use Of Gibberellic Acid In Producing Bigger Yields?
13. How Do I Use Gibberellic Acid (GA3) To Control The Gender Of The Flowers?
14. Can I combine Gibberellic Acid (GA3) With Other Plant Hormones?
15. How Does Gibberellic Acid Affect Roots?*
*Using Gibberellic Acid*

*16. How Do I Use The Powdered Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
17. How Should I Dilute The Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Powder?
18. What Should I Use To Dilute The Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Powder?
19. How Much Alcohol Should I Use?
20. Doesn't Dissolving Powder Gibberellic Acid (GA3) With Alcohol Damage Plants?
21. Can Powdered Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Be Diluted In Water?
22. How Do I Use The Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Tablet?
21. Does It Make A Difference If I Water With Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Instead Of Misting?
22. Can I Mix Gibberellic Acid With Brassinolide To Use As A Foliar Spray?
23. How Do I Use the Gibberellic Acid Paste?*
*Buying Gibberellic Acid*

*24. In What Form Is Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Commercially Available?
25. Which Type Of Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Is The Best One To buy?
26. Should The Gibberellic Acid Powder Be Above a Particular Purity To Be Effective?
27. How Much Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Would I need?*
*Storing Gibberellic Acid*

*28. How Should I Store Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Powder?
29. How should I Store Liquid Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
30. What Precautions Should I Use In Handling Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
31. How is Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Produced?
32. What Is The Difference Between Gibberellic Acid And GA3?
33. Is There A User Group For Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
34. Can I Set Up a Link To This Page?*
*Plant Specific Uses of Gibberellic Acid*

*35. What Are The Effects Of Gibberellic Acid On Palm Tree Germination?
36. What Are The Effects Of Applying Gibberellic Acid On Tomato Plants Before Transplanting?
37. What Are The Effects Of Applying Gibberellic Acid On Tomato Plants When Transplanting?*


[HR][/HR]​1. What is Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
*Gibberellic acid (GA3) is a naturally occurring plant hormone that regulates the growth of plants, including triggering seed germination. There are over 100 different Gibberellic acids, and plants will have several different types. Rice has fourteen different gibberellic acids while corn has twelve different Gibberellic acids.*
[HR][/HR]​2. Is Gibberellic Acid An Organic Product?
*OMRI, the leading organic certifying organization has certified many Gibberellic acid products.*

*http://www.dirtworks.net/Images/omri list.pdf*
[HR][/HR]​3. How Does Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Help Plants?
*The main areas of activity are to improve seed germination, bigger plants and flowers and manipulating the gender of flowers. There are also some reports that it will also generate a larger number of female plants. This aspect is generally undocumented and requires research. Depending on how you use gibberellic acid (GA3), you can generate male flowers on a female plant and use the pollen from the same plant to generate female clones of itself or to pollinate another female plant.*
[HR][/HR]​4. How Do I Use Gibberellic Acid (GA3) To Improve Seed Germination?
*Gibberellic Acid will improve seed germination. The generally used method is to prepare a gibberellic acid (GA3) liquid solution and to soak the seeds in it for 24 hours [SUP]1[/SUP]; the GA3 concentration should be in the range of 100-250 PPM [SUP]1[/SUP]. *
*One manufacturer [SUP]2[/SUP] of gibberellic acid products recommends first trying a concentration of 50 PPM.*
*One website [SUP]3[/SUP] recommends using 500 PPM for rosulate Violas, which seems rather high.*
*Older Seeds*

*One botanist used Gibberellic Acid when successfully germinating 2,000 year old seeds from an extinct plant [SUP]4[/SUP].*
*In some cases the seedling may grow so quickly that it begins to lean over. If this happens add more soil around the base of plant.*

*1. Gibberelic Acid [http://www.flytrap.demon.co.uk/cc/data/ga3.htm]*
*2. http://www.megagro.com/megagro_faq.htm*
*3. http://freespace.virgin.net/almond.jim/alpseed.htm#Gibberellic acid*
*4. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/12/MNGJND7G5T1.DTL*
[HR][/HR]​*For more information on improved seed germination please take a look at Brassinolide, Chitosan, Fulvic Acid and Gibberellic Acid. *
*Order the Super-Grow Germination Pack! *
[HR][/HR]​5. Does Seed Chilling In Distilled Water Also Affect Seed Germination?
*Yes; this is known as cold stratification. In a normal life cycle seeds will spend some amount of time dormant over winter. Research [SUP]1[/SUP] studies have shown that this can be critical in improving seed germination. The same research suggested a six week chilling period.*

*1. Effect of scarification, GA and chilling on the germination of goldenrain-tree (Koelreuteria paniculata Laxm.) seeds [http://ipe.ibrc.unesp.br/ftp/PDFS/koelreuteria.pdf]*
[HR][/HR]​6. What Is Seed Scaring And What Does It have To Do With Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
*Some seeds have an outer shell that is hard and nearly water-proof. Since seed germination means the seed has to absord the gibberellic acid solution this is an obvious problem. The objective of seed scaring is to damage the seed's outer-shell to allow water to enter the seed. Different scaring methods are used [SUP](1)[/SUP].*
*(1) Seed Scarification [www.mcdb.ucla.edu/Research/Hirsch/ss.html]*
[HR][/HR]​7. Can I Use Gibberellic Acid During Vegetating And Flowering?
*Gibberellic acid is best used during germination, vegetating and to induce flowering, but not during flowering. When flowering a plant is supposed to use all its energy to generate flowers, and its growth is normally slowed down. If gibberellic acid is used during flowering the plant will grow more but have less resource for generating flowers.*
[HR][/HR]​8. How Do I Use Gibberellic Acid (GA3) To Generate Bigger Plants?
*Yes. This is a well-researched area, although the results of gibberellic acid (GA3) applications vary depending on many factors, including (here also) the type of plants its applied to. In one study of persimmon yield [SUP](1)[/SUP] it was found that applications of 15 to 30 PPM increased yields by 50% to 400%. In another study [SUP](2)[/SUP] it was even found that if gibberellic acid is applied to a plant the next generation of the plant would also benefit from faster flowering and increased height. In another study of walnut trees it was found that applications of gibbarellic acid (GA3) increased growth by 567% [SUP](3)[/SUP].*
*1) Increasing Persimmon Yields With Gibberellic Acid [www.actahort.org/books/120/120_32.htm]*
*2) Generations Living with Gibberellic Acid [www.sidwell.edu/us/science/vlb5/Independent_Research_Projects/cgraham/]*
*3) Gibberellic Acid for Fruit Set and Seed Germination [www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html]*


[HR][/HR]​9. Can Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Induce Plants To Flower?
*One researcher [SUP]1[/SUP] concluded that flowering can be induced in spathiphyllum by gibberellic acid (GA3) at concentrations of 500 PPM or less, while the best range is probably between 200 to 400 PPM. It is recommended to first start with a few plants to test the best response. Another report [SUP]2[/SUP] concludes that early flowering can occur at concentrations between 50 to 200 PPM. One study [SUP]3[/SUP] of cyclamens accelerated flowering by 4 to 5 weeks with one foliar spray of 50ppm 60 to 75 days before the plant would normally flower. *
*Camellia*
*The use of gibberellic acid to induce flowering of camellias is considered to be a common practice. While not all varieties will respond the same, the gibberellic acid treatement should generate some blooms within 40 to 45 days according to one site [SUP]4[/SUP]; another site has it at 30 to 90 days [SUP]5[/SUP]. The process can even generate bigger flowers [SUP]6[/SUP]. One method [SUP]7[/SUP] is to place one drop of the solution on the cup.*

*1. Inducing Flowering of Spathiphyllum with Gibberellic Acid (GA3) [mrec.ifas.ufl.edu/FoliageDigest/v4n3.html]*
*2. Gibberellic Acid for Fruit Set and Seed Germination [www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html]*
*3. Gibberellins - Plant Growth Hormones [www.hydroponics.com.au/back_issues/issue11.html]*
*4. Gibbing Camellias [www.camellias-acs.com/culture/gibbing.html]*
*5. http://members.cox.net/vacs/gibbing.htm*
*6. http://members.cox.net/vacs/gibbing.htm*
*7. www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_trees_shrubs_flowering/article/0,1785,HGTV_3646_1399133,00.html*
[HR][/HR]​*For more information on improved flowering please take a look at BenzylAminopurine, Gibberellic Acid and Naphthalene Acetic Acid *
[HR][/HR]​10. Can Gibberellic Acid Induce Bigger Flowers?
*Yes! One study [SUP]1[/SUP] concluded that gibberellic acid (GA3) can also generate bigger flowers that are 25% to 50% larger when Gibberellic Acid is applied at 5 PPM directly to the flowers of gardenias or geraniums. This type of result would be applicable to most flowering plants.

BenzylAminopurine will also produce bigger flowers.*

*1. Gibberellins: Plant Growth Hormones [www.hydroponics.com.au/back_issues/issue11.html]*
[HR][/HR]​11. Can Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Induce More Flowers?
*Yes! One study [SUP]1[/SUP] conducted on the lily garden plant found a 243% increase in the number of flowers at 25 ppm.*

*1. Comparative Effects Of Promalin And GA3 [www.actahort.org/books/292/292_23.htm]*
[HR][/HR]​12. What Is The Use Of Gibberellic Acid In Producing Bigger Yields?
*A study on persimmons [SUP]1[/SUP] increased yield by at least 50%. This was done with a foliar spray of 15 to 30 ppm when the plants where at full bloom.*

*http://www.actahort.org/books/120/120_32.htm*
[HR][/HR]​13. How Do I Use Gibberellic Acid (GA3) To Control The Gender Of The Flowers?
*This area has less research than seed germination, but some information is available and even. Agriculture Canada has this as an effective procedure [SUP]4[/SUP]. One website [SUP]1[/SUP] has described that to induce male flowers a spray of 10 to 200 PPM; female flowers are induced with 200 to 300 PPM and more than 600 PPM will hinder any flowering.*
*Medical Marijuana*

*For various reasons there has been some significant interest in affecting the gender of cannabis plants. It' been reported [SUP]3[/SUP] that in 1978 Galoch published a procedure for generating male flowers on a female plant. For five consecutive days spray a plant with a 100 ppm gibberellic acid solution. Within two weeks male flowers may appear. There is much information on the internet about this use of gibberellic acid (GA3), but it does require some level of trial and error before being a reliable process. Also, the results will likely vary depending on which type of plant you are using it on. *

*1. Inducing Flowering of Spathiphyllum with Gibberellic Acid (GA3) [mrec.ifas.ufl.edu/FoliageDigest/v4n3.html]*
*2. Gibberellic Acid for Fruit Set and Seed Germination [www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html]*
*3. Marijuana Botany [www.mellowgold.com/grow/mjbotany-removed/marijuanabotany3.html]*
*4. http://res2.agr.gc.ca/harrow/publications/pdf_pubs/p1902_e.pdf*
[HR][/HR]​14. Can I combine Gibberellic Acid (GA3) With Other Plant Hormones?
*Super-Grow has created GrowTonic by combining Gibberellic Acid with other hormones (Indole Butyric Acid and Naphthalene Acetic Acid) that induce root development. The combination of hormones will boost growth in different parts of the plant so they work together quite well. *
*There is existing research [SUP]1[/SUP] indicating that combining Gibberellic Acid and Indoleacetic Acid will improve plant growth.*

*1. http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/Current/Projects/S1314.pdf*
[HR][/HR]​15. How Does Gibberellic Acid Affect Roots?
*There has been a very interesting observation [SUP]1[/SUP] made about the effects that Gibberellic Acid has on roots. When it is used with auxins and in the dark it helps develop roots while when its light it slows down the development of roots. Given this information and other opinions [SUP]2[/SUP] it would be best to avoid Gibberellic Acid when trying to boost root development. But Gibberellic Acid is still a great tool when trying to boost other plant areas.*

*1. http://www.botany.org/ajb/00029122_di001682.php*
*2. http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html*
[HR][/HR]​16. How Do I Use The Powdered Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
*Powder gibberellic acid (GA3) is a white powder ranging from water-soluble 20% to alcohol-soluble 90% pure. Before it can be used is must be turned into a liquid.*

[HR][/HR]​17. How Should I Dilute The Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Powder?
*The amount of gibberellic acid (GA3) that needs to be used is very small. If you're feeling very scientific you can use a test tube, but we use one of those small plastic jars that prescription pills come in. Drop the correct amount of powder in it, then add a few drops of methyl hydrate. Methyl hydrate is easy to find and inexpensive; we visited three hardware stores and found it in all three for less than $3.00 for enough to last years of use. To add a drop at a time you can use an eyedropper. We went to the pharmacy and bought a bunch of syringes (less the needle) for $0.10 each. Before mixing the GA3 practice dropping single drops with one of the syringes. Once the GA3 is liquefied with the methyl hydrate add water. We have an illustrated guide at MixingGA3.jsp, and a Parts-Per-Million (PPM) mixing calculator.*

[HR][/HR]​18. What Should I Use To Dilute The Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Powder?
*We prefer to use Methyl Hydrate (99.9% pure), generally available in hardware stores. We have also tested dilution with 70% isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) with good results. If you are using isopropyl alcohol don't go below 70%.*
[HR][/HR]​19. How Much Alcohol Should I Use?
*The only reason to use alcohol is to dilute the gibberellic acid (GA3) powder. Use just enough alcohol to wet the gibberellic acid (GA3) powder. If after a couple of minutes you can still see some powder add a few more drops of alcohol.*
[HR][/HR]​20. Doesn't Dissolving Powder Gibberellic Acid (GA3) With Alcohol Damage Plants?
*No! It is often being said that alcohol will damage plants. Yes, but not in the very low concentration needed to dissolve gibberellic acid (GA3). In fact, the use of alcohol is encouraged [SUP]1[/SUP] in seed germination as a fungicide, where it is used in much higher concentrations - as much as 5% - than for disolving Gibberellic acid (GA3).*

*1. The Effects Of Fungicides Upon The Germination Of Corn [www.oznet.ksu.edu/historicpublications/Pubs/SB041.PDF]*
[HR][/HR]​21. Can Powdered Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Be Diluted In Water?
*It depends on which powder you are using. Super-Grow carries a 90% GA3 powder that will not dissolve in water and a 20% powder that will.*

[HR][/HR]​22. How Do I Use The Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Tablet?
*Gibberellic Acid (GA3) tablets are a lower concentration than powder, which is usually between 85% and 95% while tablets are between 10% and 20%. The reason is that the tablets have been treated to be water soluble! Just drop the tablet in the water, instead of the more complex use of gibberellic acid (GA3) powder that requires different **dilution.*
[HR][/HR]​21. Does It Make A Difference If I Water With Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Instead Of Misting?
*I really haven't seen any scientific data about this, but keep in mind that liquid gibberellic acid (GA3) loses potency very quickly, so if it's in the soil through watering I would expect that it would mostly be wasted. If it's misted on the leaves it dries up and is absorbed much more quickly. Also, you would likely require a lot more gibberellic acid (GA3) for watering than for spraying/misting.*
[HR][/HR]​22. Can I Mix Gibberellic Acid With Brassinolide To Use As A Foliar Spray?
*Yes. Both gibberellic acid (GA3) and brassinolide are naturally present in plants so combining them as a spray is a great way to get even better results.*
[HR][/HR]​23. How Do I Make and Use the Gibberellic Acid Paste?
*Gibberellic acid paste can be made without much trouble. In one study [SUP]1[/SUP] paste was applied in a band around the terminal bud of trees three times in one summer. The treated trees grew an 8.5 ft. and only 1.5 ft. for the untreated trees.*

*1. http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html*
[HR][/HR]​24. In What Form Is Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Commercially Available?
*Gibberellic acid (GA3) is available as a liquid, powder or in tablet form.*
[HR][/HR]​25. Which Type Of Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Is The Best One To buy?
*Gibberellic acid (GA3) can only be used as a liquid. But once gibberellic acid (GA3) is a liquid it's only effective for a few weeks, even if refrigerated [SUP](1)[/SUP]. So when you buy gibberellic acid (GA3) only buy it as a powder or tablet since it's likely that the solution was mixed more than a few weeks ago.*
*(1) Gibberelic Acid [http://www.flytrap.demon.co.uk/cc/data/ga3.htm]*
[HR][/HR]​26. Should The Gibberellic Acid Powder Be Above a Particular Purity To Be Effective?
*No. While powder gibberellic acid (GA3) is generally between 85% to 95% pure they all work just as well.*
[HR][/HR]​27. How Much Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Would I need?
*Very little! Typically, when germinating ten seeds we will use 0.02 grams of 90% gibberellic acid (GA3) powder to make 60 ML of 300 PPM gibberellic acid (GA3) soaking solution.*
[HR][/HR]​28. How Should I Store Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Powder?
*Store gibberellic acid (GA3) In a cool dry place in a closed container. Gibberellic acid (GA3) should not be exposed to temperatures above 40°C [SUP](1)[/SUP].*
*(1) Material Safety Data Sheet [www.noracconcepts.com/norac%5CNorSite.nsf/WebMSDS/Activol?OpenDocument]*
[HR][/HR]​29. How should I Store Liquid Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
*While it's recommended to only mix enough gibberellic acid (GA3) to use right away, it's not always possible. While there are claims that liquid gibberellic acid (GA3) can keep for years that claim is suspect unless the liquid is frozen. A good method is to put the liquid in an ice cube tray so that you can thaw an ice cube when needed. PLEASE, label the ice cube tray!*
[HR][/HR]​30. What Precautions Should I Use In Handling Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
*Use normal precautions, being that you should wash your hands after using it and avoid swallowing or breathing it in. Keep in mind that the use of gibberellic acid (GA3) is recommended for helping the production of various fruits and vegetables [SUP](1)[/SUP].*
*(1) The use of Gibberellic Acid to improve post-harvest handling and storage quality of cherries [www.hortnet.co.nz/publications/science/gatrials.htm]*
[HR][/HR]​31. How is Gibberellic Acid (GA3) Produced?
*Gibberellic Acid (GA3) is not manufactured; it's a natural product extracted from the Gibberella fujikuroi fungus. Gibberellic Acid (GA3) is already naturally found in plants and using gibberellic acid (GA3) will help you get better results from your plants.*

[HR][/HR]​32. What Is The Difference Between Gibberellic Acid And GA3?
*Gibberellic acid (GA3) is one of the known forms of gibberellins. There are over 100 known forms of gibberellic acid; GA3 is the most effective, with GA4 and GA7 also occasionally being used but less effective.*

[HR][/HR]​33. Is There A User Group For Gibberellic Acid (GA3)?
*Yes, there is a gibberellic acid (GA3) user group. You can get more information at Ga3ug.jsp.*

[HR][/HR]​34. Can I Set Up a Link To This Page?
*Yes, just copy this code to your web page:*
*<A href="http://www.super-grow.biz/GA3FAQ.jsp">The Gibberelic Acid (GA3) FAQ</A>*


[HR][/HR]​35. What Are The Effects Of Gibberellic Acid On Palm Tree Germination?
*Improved germination has been reported by soaking palm seed in a gibberellic acid solution of 10 to 2000 parts-per-million (PPM) for 1 to 3 days. Because gibberellic acid may cause elongation problems it would be recommended to only use the lower concentration of 10 PPM for only 1 day. If any elongation does occur Benzylaminopurine will correct the problem.

IMPORTANT: it is best to try germinating the palm seeds naturally and only use the giberellic acid if that doesn't work.*

[HR][/HR]​36. What Are The Effects Of Applying Gibberellic Acid On Tomato Plants Before Transplanting?
*One study [SUP]1[/SUP] concluded that 10 days before transplanting tomatoes should be supplied with 60 PPM of gibberellic acid.*

*1. www.ansinet.org/fulltext/jbs/jbs16448-450.pdf*
[HR][/HR]​37. What Are The Effects Of Applying Gibberellic Acid On Tomato Plants When Transplanting?
*One study [SUP]1[/SUP] concluded that a spray of 50 PPM of gibberellic acid when the tomato plant was transplanted outdoors increased yield by 40%.*


----------



## thedude27 (Feb 14, 2012)

My personal experience is < 100ppm foliar for GA3 not more than 2 times is a reasonable dose that makes less "stupid" stuff happen.


----------



## thedude27 (Feb 14, 2012)

Benzylaminopurine is an important cytokinin that stimulates a wide array of plant growth benefits: cell division, more side branches, basal shoot formation, bigger flowers, and fruit set. 6-Benzylaminopurine also inhibits senescence.


[h=3]Dissolving Benzylaminopurine[/h]The textbooks indicate that NAOH is required to dissolve benzylaminopurine. But NAOH is not easy to prepare. Fortunately, a member of our user group has come up with an easier and better way to dissolve benzylaminopurine. Basically, we placed 1 scoop of benzylaminopurine in a small glass container with a small amount of 70% store-bought rubbing alcohol and a few drops of no-tear baby shampoo. This was kept heated between 110 and 150 Fahrenheit for a few minutes and the benzylaminopurine fully dissolved.
[h=3]Diluting Benzylaminopurine[/h]Once the Benzylaminopurine has been dissolved (see above) you mix it in water to dilute it. How much water to use depends on what Parts-Per-Million (PPM) you will use. To decide on the best PPM please take a look at the research and information that is available. The best place to start would be the FAQ on this page.
Once your know what PPM your want look at the "Benzylaminopurine Mixing" table below to decide how much water to use. The table indicates how many scoops of powder to use with how much water. After dissolving add it to the water, do not add the water to it.
[h=3]Using The Solution[/h]The 0.47 liter was put in a spray bottle and the plant was sprayed until the solution was dripping from the plant. As a safety measure it is always a good idea to spray the plant outside if possible or in a closed separate room.

Frequently Asked Questions
1. What Is Benzylaminopurine?
2. What Are The Effects of Benzylaminopurine?
3. How Does 6-Benzylaminopurine Affect Apical Dominance And The Number of Branches?
4. What Treatment Frequency Has Been Tested?
5. How Is Benzylaminopurine Used to Generate Bigger Flowers?
6. What Effect Does Benzylaminopurine Have On Plant Senescense (Death)?
[HR][/HR]​1. What Is Benzylaminopurine?
Benzylaminopurine is a cytokinin that has a large array of effects. It speeds up cell growth and division, buds, flowering and branching.

www.agrocare.com.cn/Products/6-benzylaminopurine.htm
[HR][/HR]​2. What Are The Effects of Benzylaminopurine?
Benzylaminopurine has been found [SUP]1[/SUP] to increase the thickness of stems, increase the leaf surface and the number of side branches. At the same time root growth was slowed down. This is very likely because the larger leaves provide more nutrients to the plant and reduce the need for root mass. At higher concentrations of 300 to 400ppm stem elongation was reduced.

1. http://altair.chonnam.ac.kr/~horti/vegeta/reseMan/chungsj/re1.htm
[HR][/HR]​3. How Does 6-Benzylaminopurine Affect Apical Dominance And The Number of Branches?
Tests on different plant types have shown that Benzylaminopurine will increase the number of branches. The Ontario Hosta Society reports [SUP]1[/SUP] that wetting a hosta-leaf with 1000 PPM to 3000 PPM will cause the plant to branch out simmilar to cutting the end of the branch without the damage that pruning would cause. A Plumeria Society Research Bulletin [SUP]2[/SUP] also reports that if a branch is pruned 6-Benzylaminopurine will generate more branches than prunning alone.

In another test [SUP]3[/SUP] on Anthurium 'Ozake Red' plants ethephon, PBA and BA showed that the best results were 1000 PPM 6-Benzylaminopurine.

Another test [SUP]3[/SUP] was conducted on Dieffenbachia with foliar applications of 500, 1000 and 2000 PPM of Benzylaminopurine. All treated plants averaged 6 lateral shoots while untreated plants at 2. At the same time plant height was unaffected by the Benzylaminopurine.

1. www.rittenhouse.ca/hortmag/Hosta/Hosta-Spring00.htm
2. www.theplumeriasociety.org/prb/prb_1-2.html
3. http://mrec.ifas.ufl.edu/Foliage/Resrpts/rh_90_12.htm
[HR][/HR]​4. What Treatment Frequency Has Been Tested?
Tests on a nonbranching Dieffenbachia hybrid indicated [SUP]1[/SUP] that a foliar spray for three days in a row had more lateral shoot development than plants treated only once or even on two consecutive days. At the same time plants treated with 500 or 750 PPM had better results than 250 PPM. The new shoots were visible 4 weeks after treatment.

1. http://mrec.ifas.ufl.edu/Foliage/Resrpts/rh_90_12.htm
[HR][/HR]​5. How Is Benzylaminopurine Used to Generate Bigger Flowers?
Research [SUP](1)[/SUP] on chrysanthemum indicates that benzylaminopurine can influence flower size. In this study 0.1 to 1.0 mg/l improved flowering while 10 mg/l inhibited flowering. Please not that the dosage in this experiment is surprisingly small and may only be due either to the specific type of plants or some other unknown factor.

One Benzylaminopurine medicinal marijuana user has reported that he used the BA6 at 300 PPM 4 weeks into bloom and the results were amazing, with the flowers being noticeably bigger on the sprayed plants than the unsprayed plants 1 weeks after application. He tried it at 150 PPM but 300 PPM being better. Another medicinal grower has tried to replicate these results but did not report much difference. Keep in mind that the difference in results can again be attributed to other factors such as the genetics of the plants. Another possibility could be that one of the individuals may have measured wrong. This said I believe that using benzylaminopurine to improve flowering is effective but I would suggest using lower dosages than 150 PPM.

Gibberellic Acid will also improve flower size.

1. www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpestics/29/4/29_308/_article
[HR][/HR]​*For more information on improved flowering please take a look at BenzylAminopurine, Gibberellic Acid and Naphthalene Acetic Acid *
[HR][/HR]​6. What Effect Does Benzylaminopurine Have On Plant Senescense (Death)?
One study [SUP]1[/SUP] found that an application of 100 PPM of Benzylaminopurine was most effective in delaying plant senescense. The study concluded that plant tisue death was reduced by about half.


----------



## thedude27 (Feb 14, 2012)

Brassinolide improves plant growth through improved root growth, better seed germination, plant photosynthesis, resistance to cold, water shortage and disease.

Instructions
Brassinolide 0.1 is soluble in 70% rubbing alcohol that has been preheated to 50-60 centigrade or 125-140 Fahrenheit.
Instructions
The easiest and safest way to do this is to heat up a pot of water. Then remove the pot from the stove and put a small container in the water with the brassinolide and a small amount of alcohol. Once it has dissolved add it to the water, do not add the water to the brassinolide/alcohol.
To use Brassinolide 0.1 you can either foliar spray the plant or water the plant with it after diluting it.
Please read the FAQ and select the PPM that seems the best for you type of plant and the type of results you want. It may be smart to start at an even lower PPM and over time, depending on results, you can raise or lower the PPM.

Frequently Asked Questions
[h=3]General Brassinolide Information[/h]1. What Is Brassinolide?
2. When Was Brassinolide Discovered?
3. Why Is Brassinolide Only Available In Such Low Concentration?
[h=3]Brassinolide Effects[/h]4. How Does Brassinolide Help Plant Growth?
5. Does Brassinolide Help Plant Use Photosynthesis?
6. Does Brassinolide Help Plants Resists Cold, Drought And Salinity?
7. Does Brassinolide Help Plants Resist Disease?
8. Can Brassinolide Help Plants Deal With Flooding?
9. What Effect Does Brassinolide Have On Root Development?
10. Does Brassinolide Affect Seed Germination?
[h=3]Using Brassinolide[/h]11. What Concentrations Of Brassinolide Are Used?
12. When Should Brassinolide Be Applied?
[h=3]Storing Brassinolide[/h]13. How Do I Store Brassinolide Powder?
14. How Do I Store Brassinolide After Mixing It?
15. How Long Is Brassinolide Powder Good For?
[HR][/HR]​1. What Is Brassinolide?
Brassinolide is a naturally occuring plant steroid; it is normally found in plants [SUP]1[/SUP]. In fact, it was first discovered in plants. Brassinolide has been found to be an important element for plant growth [SUP]2[/SUP].

1. http://journal.kcsnet.or.kr/publi/bul/bu02n10/1473.pdf
2. www.botany.utoronto.ca/courses/BOT421H/Papers/microarray 2.pdf
[HR][/HR]​2. When Was Brassinolide Discovered?
In 1968 it was reported that a plant extract improved plant growth.[SUP]1[/SUP]
1. http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/brassinolide/brassinolidej.htm
[HR][/HR]​3. Why Is Brassinolide Only Available In Such Low Concentration?
Many products are available as 90% pure while we sell Brassinolide in less than 1% pure. The problem is that it is very expensive to make Brassinolide more than 1% pure and is not economical for most use.
[HR][/HR]​4. How Does Brassinolide Help Plant Growth?
Brassinolide is essential for plant growth; plants that cannot generate their own brassinolide will become dwarf plants [SUP](1)[/SUP]. In fact, it has been suggested [SUP](2)[/SUP] that the more brassinolide is available to the plant the more it will grow.
(1) Carnegie Institute [http://carnegieinstitution.org/Yearbook_HTML_00_01/dpb.html]
(2) Genetically Altering the Appearance of Crops [www.angelfire.com/oh/geneticsgroup7/heather.html]
[HR][/HR]​5. Does Brassinolide Help Plant Use Photosynthesis?
Yes. Reasearch has indicated that brassinolide helps plant growth by helping it locate light [SUP](1)[/SUP] that is essential for plant life.
(1) Stitching Together a Receptor Reveals Plant Hormone Action [www.hhmi.org/news/chory2.html]
[HR][/HR]​[h=2]6. Does Brassinolide Help Plants Resists Cold, Drought And Salinity?[/h]Brassinolide strengthens a plant's immunity to stresses such as drought, salinity and cold [SUP](1)(2)[/SUP].Brassinolide can ensure a plant's steady growth and a longer growing season. Through all these factors brassinolide can ensure bigger and better quality plants.
1) www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/brassinolide/brassinolidej.htm
2) www.ibmc.up.pt/newsletter/IBMCNews_Dec03.pdf
[HR][/HR]​7. Does Brassinolide Help Plants Resist Disease?
Yes, brassinolide will improve a plant's ability to deal with diseases [SUP](1)[/SUP].
1) Turning on Disease Resistance [www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0DED/12_20/63802656/p1/article.jhtml]
[HR][/HR]​8. Can Brassinolide Help Plants Deal With Flooding?
One source [SUP]1[/SUP] reports that a foliar spray of 0.3 ppm of brassinolide helps plants deal with water flooding.

1. www.tnau.ac.in/tech/ricetips.pdf
[HR][/HR]​9. What Effect Does Brassinolide Have On Root Development?
A study [SUP]1[/SUP] concluded that Brassinolide increased the growth of the primary root by 90%.

1. http://abstracts.aspb.org/aspb1997/45/5180.shtml
[HR][/HR]​10. Does Brassinolide Affect Seed Germination?
One study [SUP]1[/SUP] concluded that Brassinolide improved the growth of the germinating seed. Another study [SUP]2[/SUP] has also concluded that Brassinolide has germination promoting effects.

1. www.leubner.ch/html/absbrassino01.html
2. www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=64877
[HR][/HR]​*For more information on improved seed germination please take a look at Brassinolide, Chitosan, Fulvic Acid and Gibberellic Acid. *
*Order the Super-Grow Germination Pack! *
[HR][/HR]​11. What Concentrations Of Brassinolide Are Used?
Concentrations of brassinolide are based on many different factors, such that hard rules are hard to define. In research brassinolide concentrations of 0.01 ppm [SUP](1)[/SUP] to 0.5 ppm have shown very good results [SUP](2)(3)[/SUP] across a wide range of plants.
1) www.actahort.org/books/239/239_54.htm
2) www.tnau.ac.in/cbe_crophy.html
3) www.tnau.ac.in/tech/ricetips.pdf


[HR][/HR]​12. When Should Brassinolide Be Applied?
It will vary from one plant to another, but one source [SUP]1[/SUP] recommends two different foliar sprays of brassinolide. The first at 25 to 30 DAS (days after seeding) and the second after 45 to 50 days. Alternatively, the same source suggests that for some plants the brassinolide should be sprayed at the beginning of flowering. Another source [SUP]2[/SUP] reports very good results when 0.1 PPM brassinolide is sprayed three times: once at the seedling stage, then at the flowering stage and finally at the fruiting stage.

1. www.tnau.ac.in/tech/ricetips.pdf
2. www.plant-hormones.com/tech.htm
[HR][/HR]​13. How Do I Store Brassinolide Powder?
Brassinolide powder should be stored in a cool dry place.
[HR][/HR]​14. How Do I Store Brassinolide After Mixing It?
Once it's in a liquid form brassinolide would normaly degrade very quickly. The best way to keep liquid brassinolide is to freeze it in a freezer tray. When you need to use the brassinolide just remove one ice cube from the freezer and let it melt.
[HR][/HR]​15. How Long Is Brassinolide Powder Good For?
It is estimated that the brassinolide powder can be kept for up to three years.


----------



## thedude27 (Feb 14, 2012)

Triacontanol is a naturally occurring plant hormone that acts as a growth promoter. Triacontanol raises plant yield by improving photosynthesis and cell division. The use of Triacontanol was the subject of several United States Patents including 4150970, 4230485 and 4333758.

User Feedback
[h=3]Roses - Triacontanol[/h]I bought Triacontanol 62% Pure: 2 grams.
I grow roses and have been using UltraBoost from a company called Primary Products. From what I have read, Ultraboost uses Triacontanol, so I figured I would try and make my own.
I bought 5 American Beauty roses all around the same size and health. I mixed several batches of the solution, 2 ppm, 10 ppm, 25 ppm and 100 ppm. I labeled each rose bush accordingly including one using the UltraBoost. The 25 ppm and 100 ppm bushes did the best, almost identical. So it appears in my small experiment 25 ppm is the way to go. No use using 100 ppm if the results are the same. Anyway, the surprise was that the 25ppm and 100ppm bushes over a weeks time actually doubled the size of new growth of the bush using UltaBoost. Go figure

[h=3]Preparing[/h][h=4]Dissolving[/h][h=5]Polysorbate 20[/h]Triacontanol powder is a wax-like flake that must be dissolved into a liquid. The best method of turning the Triacontanol powder into liquid is by using a food additive called Polysorbate 20. Among other uses Polysorbate is used in ice cream. You can find Polysorbate 20 on Ebay (www.ebay.com) and it's pretty cheap.
[h=5]Heating[/h]I placed one scoop (1/32 spoon) of the Triacontanol in a glass container with 50 ml of water and one scoop of Polysorbate 20. After heating it in the microwave and shaking it a bit the Triacontanol was completely dissolved.
[h=4]Diluting[/h]After the Triacontanol has been dissolved it's important that you add the solution to water and not the other way around. In this case we added enough to make 0.1 liters of a 100 PPM solution.
[h=3]Applying[/h][h=4]Foliar Spray[/h]Triacontanol is usually applied as a foliar spray and the biggest variable is what concentration to use, which is calculated in PPM (Parts-Per-Million). We have an on-line PPM calculator.
One published recommendation [SUP](1)[/SUP] has been to spray a 1 to 2 PPM triacontanol solution at two different times. The first is 15 days after transplanting the plant and the second time when the plant is at full bloom.
Another study [SUP](2)[/SUP] tested triacontanol concentrations of 10 PPM and 15 PPM. It concluded that triacontanol improved flower initiation, pod setting and retention of flowers. It also reduced fruit drop.
A third study [SUP](3)[/SUP] on a variety of rice concluded that a foliar spray of 2PM at 25 and 65 days after transplant greatly improved crop yield.
1. www.tnau.ac.in/tech/hortcg2004.pdf
2. www.cropresearch.org/pages/rocarchivevol3.no.1.htm

Frequently Asked Questions
1. What Is Triacontanol?
2. What Are The Effects of Triacontanol?
3. In What PPM Range Should Triacontanol Be Applied?
4. Is Triacontanol A Natural Substance?
5. How Does Triacontanol Work?
[HR][/HR]​1. What Is Triacontanol?
Triacontanol is a plant growth stimulator, also known as melissyl alcohol.
http://www.exoticnatural.com/triagro.htm
[HR][/HR]​2. What Are The Effects of Triacontanol?
Different studies will give different results due to different factors such as the type of plant its tested on. One study reported that triacontanol improves photosynthesis and plant yield by a much as 100% [SUP](1)[/SUP]. Another reports improvements of 15% to 30% [SUP](2)[/SUP]. A third reports that small amounts will improve vegetable crop yields by 30 to 60% [SUP](3)[/SUP].
1) www.carbonkick.fi/growingsystem/pressrelease_eng.doc
2) www.cftri.com/aboutus/about1.html
3) www.bmi.net/roseguy/boosters.html
[HR][/HR]​3. In What PPM Range Should Triacontanol Be Applied?
Please take a look at the instructions section.
[HR][/HR]​4. Is Triacontanol A Natural Substance?
Yes! It was first discovered in plants [SUP](1)[/SUP] in the 1930's. it's importance in plant growth and health was identified from this discovery.
1) www.carbonkick.fi/growingsystem/pressrelease_eng.doc
[HR][/HR]​5. How Does Triacontanol Work?
Triacontanol research does not have a long history, but does indicate that one of triacontanol's action is in improving photosynthesis. Since light is a primary source of nutrition the benefits of using triacontanol are obvious. It will also increase cell division [SUP](2)[/SUP].
1) www.carbonkick.fi/growingsystem/pressrelease_eng.doc


----------



## thedude27 (Feb 14, 2012)

Ok that should at least get you pointed in the right direction. Here's a simple diagram that will probably help some of the ppl interested in this.


----------



## shaggyballs (Apr 18, 2013)

Any further results this is very interesting.

Or anyone else have new info.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4835054&postcount=146


----------



## shaggyballs (Dec 10, 2013)

bump for a good thread


----------



## dank smoker420 (Dec 14, 2013)

if you can stop the synthesis of GA then it will not stretch at all. that is how dwarf plants are made. they don't have the ability to synthesis GA. I found a chart that compares the amounts of IAA to cytokinens. i just started a thread about auxin and its relation to apical dominance and the auxin that is produced by the axillary meristems


----------



## shaggyballs (Aug 16, 2014)

Lets keep this one going!


----------



## hexthat (Aug 16, 2014)

SUPERthrive is awesome.....


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 17, 2014)

Anyone using IAA?


----------



## stsm (Sep 18, 2014)

Hi, what will the bap concentrated solution looks like?i am trying to make a concentrated solution of bap for long term use. I am mixing it with hot isopropyl alcohol and further dilute with water.my end result is shiny
powdery solution. Is anyone else having the same result or i shouldnt be seeing any powdery stuff in my solution?? 

I am having the same end result with iaa too. Can anyone pls enlighten me?


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

No the solution should be clear....I use KOH for mixing BAP.


----------



## stsm (Sep 18, 2014)

shaggyballs said:


> No the solution should be clear....I use KOH for mixing BAP.


adding more solvent will help to dissolve the solution??


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

I am not sure.
I think adding more solvent before adding the water would do it.
Let me check my notes for something.
be back soon.


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

It is best to keep the solution between 110 and 150 F.
After dissolving add it to the water, do not add the water to it.
I can not find how much BAP will dissolve into ISO.....Sorry.
You may want to check that.


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

Have you used IAA before?


----------



## stsm (Sep 18, 2014)

shaggyballs said:


> It is best to keep the solution between 110 and 150 F.
> After dissolving add it to the water, do not add the water to it.
> I can not find how much BAP will dissolve into ISO.....Sorry.
> You may want to check that.


 Ive tried adding more iso , the solution became clear but when it started to cool off it started to crystallize at the bottom!! What should i do??


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

If you have more powder you may have to start again from scratch.
Don't go over temperature.
I hope you don't have a inferior powder, where did you get your BAP?
I get mine on ebay.
custom nutrients HERE
They seem to be the cheapest I have found.
I never have a problem with quality, if that is your issue.


----------



## stsm (Sep 18, 2014)

shaggyballs said:


> Have you used IAA before?





shaggyballs said:


> If you have more powder you may have to start again.
> where did you get your BAP?


sigh~! what a waste! so if i mix with koh/naoh shouldnt be a problem right? do i need to heat it as well?? i bought it in bulk from a wholesaler in china . what about u? what plants r u planting??

nope, never use IAA before, i am a newbies in hormones!


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

China ....May I ask how much you got and how much you paid.....I was also concerned with the quality.


----------



## stsm (Sep 18, 2014)

How do we know if its inferior powder?? What does your bap powder look like?? Does it have a specific smell?? I bought for usd58 per kg. 

Just now i mentioned that my iaa solution was powdery too. I added more iso and the solution became clear  is the colour supposed to be brown or clear white??


----------



## Squidbilly (Sep 18, 2014)

Awesome thread! 

I have always been of the mind set that auxins and cytokinins are plant hormones with two distinct actions and shouldn't be used untop of each other at the same time, rather used together at the right times. 

I like to use a 'root stimulator' in early veg to encourage root growth, then spray a kelp product(floralicious+ has been my favortie for this) to encourage lateral growth/more bud sites. The floralicious+ foliar is something I just got into a few months ago, but all my plants absolutely LOVE it. After a good spraying with kelp extract my plants explode! So much so that I only use it once a week or every other week. 

I've made it too strong before, which results in curling and sometimes burnt leaves, but I got it down now. 1tsp/floralicious plus per liter of RO water.


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

stsm said:


> How do we know if its inferior powder?? What does your bap powder look like?? Does it have a specific smell?? I bought for usd58 per kg.
> 
> Just now i mentioned that my iaa solution was powdery too. I added more iso and the solution became clear  is the colour supposed to be brown or clear white??


If you hold it up to the light it should be transparent, maybe not clear depending on the powder.
sounds like your IAA may be OK.


----------



## stsm (Sep 18, 2014)

shaggyballs said:


> If you hold it up to the light it should be transparent, maybe not clear depending on the powder.
> sounds like your IAA may be OK.


Is the powder supposed to be shiny if u look at it up close?? I will try to mix it with naoh n see if it dissolves.


----------



## shaggyballs (Sep 18, 2014)

Try to enter a conversation with me....so we don't clutter the thread.
I started one already,but you may start one with me.


----------



## midi.experiment (Sep 25, 2014)

Squidbilly said:


> Awesome thread!
> 
> I have always been of the mind set that auxins and cytokinins are plant hormones with two distinct actions and shouldn't be used untop of each other at the same time, rather used together at the right times.
> 
> ...


Hi there - this is a good review on the balance between auxins and cytokinins - and other things Plant Physiology

http://m.plantphysiol.org/content/127/4/1405

I don't mean to hijack a thread, but do you think that a little boost of auxins/cytokinins might improve the cloning efficiency after flowering. So, I'm a newb. I put my plants on 12/12 to flower without cloning first...then I see a plant that has some ideal physical characteristics - it flowered first, it is reasonably squat (perfect for my space), it withstood some of the stress I threw at it better than the other seeds from that same strain. Now I find out that cloning after the initiation of 12/12 becomes very tough...

Any thoughts...


----------



## Squidbilly (Oct 9, 2014)

midi.experiment said:


> Hi there - this is a good review on the balance between auxins and cytokinins - and other things Plant Physiology
> 
> http://m.plantphysiol.org/content/127/4/1405
> 
> ...


Cloning after switching to 12/12 can be done. If you get to them before there 3rd week of 12/12 your chances are pretty good actually. In my experiences, which have been very few, I've been successful cloning up until the 3rd week-I've never even tried after that. 

It is a stressful situation for the clone- getting choped off while flowering and forced back into a vegatative state at the same time. It usually takes roots much longer to form in this situation-sometimes up to 3-4weeks, so be patient and make sure your cloning medium doesn't dry out.


----------



## mordynyc (Dec 7, 2019)

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tomas_Vyhnanek3/publication/309772580_EFFECTS_OF_DIFFERENT_MORPHOREGULATORS_ON_GROWTH_AND_DEVELOPMENT_OF_CANNABIS_SATIVA_L/links/5823106808ae61258e3c79ca/EFFECTS-OF-DIFFERENT-MORPHOREGULATORS-ON-GROWTH-AND-DEVELOPMENT-OF-CANNABIS-SATIVA-L.pdf


----------



## RipperOG (Feb 13, 2020)

Where all the polyploid people go?


----------



## igrowtomatos (Feb 19, 2020)

I administered a foliar application of kinetin to one of my plants in DWC. A few days went by, and nothing happened. Figured oh well...

About a week and a half later though, all the nodes exploded with shoots. They grew so fast, the leaves weren’t able to keep up and were super thin and tiny. I ended up trimming them all off.

fastfoward to flowering, and this particular plant finished with absolutely TINY TINY nugs - AFTER ONLY 3 WEEKS

It was a weird experiment, I don’t remember my exact dose. I think it was about 1.5mg/L...


----------



## curious2garden (Feb 19, 2020)

midi.experiment said:


> Hi there - this is a good review on the balance between auxins and cytokinins - and other things Plant Physiology
> 
> http://m.plantphysiol.org/content/127/4/1405
> 
> ...


I've cloned all the way through flower. You just have to be patient with the plant as it can take 2-4 weeks longer the further you are in flower. The resulting clone will re-veg so thats going to take even more time. Good luck


----------

