# Is vertical all it's cracked up to be?



## legallyflying (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm setting up another room with a buddy and he really has a boner for running vertical bulbs. I have only flowered a couple plants using vertical and they were fine but I do have some serious reservations. If anyone with some serious experience could chime in that would be great. 

1. Bulbs don't give off shit for light on the ends, so the "band" of powerfull light coming off the bulb seems to be about 2' tall when your 18-24" from the bulb. 

2. The middle of the plants done get much light. Light meter readings from inside the plant show that only the outside of the plant is really getting light, the internal part is heavily shaded. 

3. The apical buds are not getting the most light. (for the above reason) 

4. You can grow super large plants..but again my light meter shows that the actual light is not that tall. 

5. It just seems like a scrog having a nice even canopy blasted by light would be best? 


I could be wrong, like I said I don't have much experience with very. Maybe the top buds don't need all that direct light? 

Thoughts?


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## SOMEBEECH (Nov 28, 2012)

*Have you read Heaths Robinsons thread?

Beech*


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## Whiteboy420 (Nov 28, 2012)

Try a vertical scrog i have mine on 4x4 fence wire tie all the branches so they lay aginst the fence that will help with the inside buds. Are you running single bulbs or staked bulbs. I run stacked 1000 watters avg is 8 zips 0r more per plant on my fourth run now.


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## Opm (Nov 28, 2012)

The reason the light isn't as strong hung vertically is in a horizontal system the light is concentrated via a reflector. So you are getting about twice the lumens ( minus the loss from the reflector absorbtion ) focused on a smaller area. If the angle of the reflector is a 120degree arc it is even more.

They will show you pictures of larger area covered. That is misleading because as you discovered they don't tell you the lux difference.

It is more efficient due to the inverse square law but you have a hard time filling up that light coverage area vertically to make it more productive. Getting an efficient canopy horizontally is much easier even with the sacrifice to light efficiency due to distance from the light.


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## Blaze23 (Nov 28, 2012)

Whiteboy420 said:


> Try a vertical scrog i have mine on 4x4 fence wire tie all the branches so they lay aginst the fence that will help with the inside buds. Are you running single bulbs or staked bulbs. I run stacked 1000 watters avg is 8 zips 0r more per plant on my fourth run now.


You average 8 zips per plant but how many plants? or better yet what is the GPW?


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## legallyflying (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the tips. We are running 18k watts so I would like to avoid all that training to screens but for sure that seems the best way to run things. 

An just for the record, anyone who has been growing weed awhile knows that Heath Robertson's "record grows" we're complete bullshit.


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## SOMEBEECH (Nov 29, 2012)

*Care to elaborate..........


Beech*


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## Whiteboy420 (Nov 29, 2012)

i have six in the flower room at a time. I have one come out every 14 to 20 days. Havent done the GPW thing i just grow for me and my family and some to pay the exp.


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## SOMEBEECH (Nov 29, 2012)

*How long are you veggin to get 8 per and Wpsft..........


Beech*


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## legallyflying (Nov 29, 2012)

For the record I get 6-8 per plant that are vegged for about 6-7 weeks in a scrog. That room has 6 600's over 8 plants. It should be noted that I only weigh marketable buds not popcorn and other trash buds. 

Anyone with vertical tree experience?


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## SOMEBEECH (Nov 29, 2012)

SOMEBEECH said:


> *Care to elaborate..........
> 
> 
> Beech*


About Heath.I ask a simple question and you wanna flame me...Like you say for the record ive been growing 25yrs and said tht for you to draw your own conclusion.

Plz dont come at ppl the way you did me on the forums.If you have a problem just PM me and dont clutter post.

Beech


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## GR33NL3AF (Nov 29, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> Thanks for the tips. We are running 18k watts so I would like to avoid all that training to screens but for sure that seems the best way to run things.
> 
> An just for the record, anyone who has been growing weed awhile knows that Heath Robertson's "record grows" we're complete bullshit.


I've only been in the business for a year or two and I have witnessed 3 units per 1k in a SOIL SOG, personally. If that is achievable then Heath Robinson's grows are more then doable.


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## SOMEBEECH (Nov 29, 2012)

*Anyway i know for a fact his Perp with a hybrid Wilma is correct.Not saying his verticals are some of his best work,The dude knows his chit.Google Heaths perp on you tube.

Beech
*


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## legallyflying (Nov 29, 2012)

I didn't flame you I simply didn't acknowledge your post as no, I really don't care to elaborate. 

And in terms of adding values to the thread...you didn't say shit other than "check out Heath's grow"


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 29, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> An just for the record, anyone who has been growing weed awhile knows that Heath Robertson's "record grows" we're complete bullshit.


Far from it. You can pull better just growing SOG style. That's not even going vertical which will further increase your GPW.

I'd love for you to explain why Heath's grows are BS. Folks 100000x more credible than you give Heath a lot of credit (Shantibaba for example).


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 29, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> I didn't flame you I simply didn't acknowledge your post as no, I really don't care to elaborate.
> 
> And in terms of adding values to the thread...you didn't say shit other than "check out Heath's grow"


You say.. 'only X sq ft'

You will only get good useable light in 16 sq ft using a hood and reflector horizontally. You will get 25 (approximately) sq ft going vertically (using your 2 ft limit, I'd say it's a little bigger than that, but not much). 

Someone else comments on light intensity being less... not true. You can stick your plants closer to compensate.

You didn't say much beyond 'Heath is full of shit'.


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 29, 2012)

GR33NL3AF said:


> I've only been in the business for a year or two and I have witnessed 3 units per 1k in a SOIL SOG, personally. If that is achievable then Heath Robinson's grows are more then doable.


Yep....

You can go way higher. The more plants you have the higher your yield will be.


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## tibberous (Nov 29, 2012)

Heath was claiming 2g/watt with his vertical setup - and with almost no veg. I don't know if anyone can *prove* it was bullshit, but I don't see anyone else reporting even close to that.

As to whether or not it's worth it, you kind of need to consider the drawbacks:

- It's hard to cool
- Systems are generally 'fixed', which is the say, the distance between the plants and the light can't be changed horizontally.
- Hard to prune, plants tend to grow into the light
- Requires a ton of plants for most systems. Kind of hard to get 300-400 clones going at once, and in the US it violates federal law and triggers minimum sentencing
- Is hell on bulbs, even some of the ones that say there made for it
- Even it's efficient in terms of light usage, it's not really efficient in terms of plant numbers, space and money. The cash that goes into a vertical system could probably have been better spent on a traditional system that's simply larger and has more lights.
- Tons of small plants generally means more trimming and 'popcorn' bud.

Granted, a well-designed system can overcome some of these issues, but it's more work.


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 29, 2012)

You need to consider most of the doubters have never done anything close to what he did, never hung a bulb vertically once in their lives and are, in general, absolutely completely talking out of their asshole.


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## nastynate420 (Nov 29, 2012)

Ive gotten 9 ps off of 6kw it was a modified octogon. Soil grown 1 month veg. 2gpw is def doable!!


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## tibberous (Nov 30, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> You need to consider most of the doubters have never done anything close to what he did, never hung a bulb vertically once in their lives and are, in general, absolutely completely talking out of their asshole.


His grow isn't that hard to build. You can make a vertical system that fills an entire room for probably around what he paid to make his - the trick is to use a laser level, 2x4's and corrugated pipe. The corrugated pipe is cheaper than PVC, but more importantly, it bends. You don't need any fittings, you lay it on a 2 by 4 and use copious amounts of electrical tape to shape it.


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## tibberous (Nov 30, 2012)

nastynate420 said:


> Ive gotten 9 ps off of 6kw it was a modified octogon. Soil grown 1 month veg. 2gpw is def doable!!


That makes no sense - you got .6 g/watt so you your certain that 2 g/watt is doable? That's like saying your dick is 6 inches long, so believe Heath when he says his is 20 

It *probably* is possible - hell, there growing blue potatoes. At a certain point though, it's easier to just buy a ton of lights and E&F tables - I'd rather have .7 g/watt off a 10kw system than 1.5g/watt off a 2kw system.


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 30, 2012)

Tibberous, you're just wrong. Sorry.

I've shown you objectively how and you obviously know nothing at all about SOG. The guys pulling the biggest yields have 0 veg time. Fact.


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## tibberous (Nov 30, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Tibberous, you're just wrong. Sorry.
> 
> I've shown you objectively how and you obviously know nothing at all about SOG. The guys pulling the biggest yields have 0 veg time. Fact.


Biggest yields per watt maybe - I think the guys getting 5-6 pounds per plant in northern cali are doing a little better overall.

I don't even know what your saying I'm wrong about - I never said vertical couldn't yield or that you needed a long veg time, all I said was I didn't think the tradeoffs were worth the extra bit you gain by not using a reflector.


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 30, 2012)

You haven't said anything here. You're basically trolling. You called Heath (a guy with so much more rep than whoever the fuck you are it's kind of hilarious) a liar. You have said there's no real gains - obviously there are unless you think (conservatively) an almost 60% increase in canopy size is not a real gain.

Then you said the following which demonstrated your ignorance:

You know why you don't see journals with people doing large plant counts and no veg? Because they face serious fucking jail time.

And the guys getting 6lbs off a tree in Cali largely aren't doing it indoors, so it's nice you brought it up, but I'm not sure what the point was. Although, worth noting, Heath pulled down almost 5 off one of his indoor tree grows.

Also, as far as others not reporting 2g/w - this is also untrue. There are journals where this mark is hit. There are journals where the 3g/w mark is almost hit. And these are conservative journals (ie: they don't have the plant counts guys looking to make huge bank do).



> *Heath was claiming 2g/watt with his vertical setup - and with almost no veg. I don't know if anyone can *prove* it was bullshit, but I don't see anyone else reporting even close to that.*


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 30, 2012)

> *- It's hard to cool
> *


*

Untrue completely. Easier to cool than setups with reflectors.




- Systems are generally 'fixed', which is the say, the distance between the plants and the light can't be changed horizontally.

Click to expand...

Some are, some aren't. 




- Hard to prune, plants tend to grow into the light

Click to expand...

Depends on your system. Of course plants tend to grow into the light. You think that doesn't happen horizontally? Why do you suppose SCROG was created?




- Requires a ton of plants for most systems. Kind of hard to get 300-400 clones going at once, and in the US it violates federal law and triggers minimum sentencing

Click to expand...

No, it doesn't.




- Is hell on bulbs, even some of the ones that say there made for it

Click to expand...

Insert wild ass random bullshit here. Please, show us some evidence. Bulbs that are designed to be hung vertically are going to perform as intended hung vertically.




- Even it's efficient in terms of light usage, it's not really efficient in terms of plant numbers, space and money. The cash that goes into a vertical system could probably have been better spent on a traditional system that's simply larger and has more lights.

Click to expand...

Again, more bullshit.




- Tons of small plants generally means more trimming and 'popcorn' bud.

Click to expand...

*You grow big colas (in most SOGs). Big colas are easier to trim. Assuming you are doing a SOG. And yes, you do have to trim more because you yield a lot more.

But... you don't have to grow SOG style vertically.


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## tibberous (Nov 30, 2012)

Did that to about 6 of 8 bulbs - they still work, but the inside has a semi-opaque coating.

And I brought up cali growers because for the $1,000+ worth of PVC heath spent on his space ship he could have bought three more thousand watt lights and just went bigger.

And, if you scale heaths system up to room-size (about 7,000 watts), you end up needing 550 clones - federal limit is 99.

So yeah, flame for no reason. Your not even running hydro, no wonder your not having problems cooling. Your system probably doesn't have any of the problems I listed, but it's small and soil. The second you make it out of PVC pipe you loose the ability to move the plants away from the light, that's what causes the bulk of the problems I mentioned. If you make it big, you end up with a hallway, and that makes it hard to get to the plants once there big - you have a foot of plants on each side and lights hanging down the middle.

Go ahead and reply "bullshit", since apparently your personal experience is the only thing that is correct.


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 30, 2012)

really it makes no difference, its just growers choice. People get great harvests off of both vertical and horizontal, it honestly depends most on growers experience


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 30, 2012)

tibberous said:


> View attachment 2425704
> 
> Did that to about 6 of 8 bulbs - they still work, but the inside has a semi-opaque coating.


What kind of bulb? Not all are designed to be hung vertically. I've never had an issue, but mine are designed to be hung this way.



> And I brought up cali growers because for the $1,000+ worth of PVC heath spent on his space ship he could have bought three more thousand watt lights and just went bigger.


Be specific then, don't talk in generalities and make broad sweeping statements with no truth to them at all.



> And, if you scale heaths system up to room-size (about 7,000 watts), you end up needing 550 clones - federal limit is 99.


Or you can grow trees like most guys in BC do with bulbs hung in between them and still do better than guys using hoods.



> So yeah, flame for no reason. Your not even running hydro, no wonder your not having problems cooling. Your system probably doesn't have any of the problems I listed, but it's small and soil. The second you make it out of PVC pipe you loose the ability to move the plants away from the light, that's what causes the bulk of the problems I mentioned. If you make it big, you end up with a hallway, and that makes it hard to get to the plants once there big - you have a foot of plants on each side and lights hanging down the middle.
> 
> Go ahead and reply "bullshit", since apparently your personal experience is the only thing that is correct.


Most of what you wrote WAS bullshit. Sorry if this offends you. Your criticisms all relate to a specific system (and may or may not have any weight based on the guy you are criticizings situation). But you're using a large brush to make them.

Everything I stated was objectively true, by the way. Not opinion. Just facts. Hoods trap heat. Of course they do, they are metallic and once the metal heats up it acts like a heating element. Better to just exhaust the air... anyway. I don't think anything bothers me or pisses me off more than people who write with ignorant authority.


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## tibberous (Nov 30, 2012)

Both the generic ones that came with the ballasts, and HTG ones that actually say there for vertical. Oddly, only 600's ever did that, never 1000s - they were straight HPS bulbs in HPS only digital ballasts.

And I said in my first post: "a well-designed system can overcome some of these issues". 
But I think anyone designing a system should at least consider them and weight the pros and cons. It SUCKS to spend time and money on a system and then have to rip it apart because of a design flaw.


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## OGEvilgenius (Nov 30, 2012)

That I can get behind. I've never had an issue with my bulbs like that. I am unfamiliar with HTG. I like Ushio as they are made in Germany (I think, I just know it's not in China) and seem to put out a good spectrum.


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## tibberous (Nov 30, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Hoods trap heat. Of course they do, they are metallic and once the metal heats up it acts like a heating element


Big heating problem with a setup like Heaths (although probably not with Healths, since he wraped the entire thing in reflective insulation) is that you create a huge amount of surface area for the light to heat up. This doesn't matter once your plants grow a little and the canopy starts absorbing the light, but it can be a big problem before that.

I've never had a problem with air temps - water temps are a bitch though.


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## Opm (Dec 1, 2012)

It's all fun and games until the vertical grow nazi turns up lol.

Chill out dude. If you can't have an amicable discussion on the pros/cons of vertical vs horizontal, then you need to smoke better bud.


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## OGEvilgenius (Dec 1, 2012)

Opm said:


> It's all fun and games until the vertical grow nazi turns up lol.


Don't spread information that is wrong. Please.



> Chill out dude. If you can't have an amicable discussion on the pros/cons of vertical vs horizontal, then you need to smoke better bud.


Sorry, but ignorance pisses me off, especially if the person being ignorant is acting like they're correct. For example your initial post had some information that was relevant filled in with information that was flat out wrong. 

I haven't called anyone any names. I'm simply stating facts and I don't pull punches, sorry. I could have changed my tone, but like I said, my biggest pet peeve in the world is information that isn't accurate being pushed as truth.

Moreover, some of you were calling Heath Robinson a fraud, when he's clearly been shown not to be. You liked a post where it was stated his grows were bullshit. This to me, indicates you do not have an open mind are just talking shit for no good reason because those grows were legit and really happened. 

My apologies.


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## Opm (Dec 1, 2012)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Don't spread information that is wrong. Please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

"You will only get good useable light in 16 sq ft using a hood and reflector horizontally. You will get 25 (approximately) sq ft going vertically (using your 2 ft limit, I'd say it's a little bigger than that, but not much). 

Someone else comments on light intensity being less... not true. You can stick your plants closer to compensate."

Absolutely wrong. Why do they put reflectors on car headlights? It intensifies the beam. That is pretty common sense. A reflector increases the lumens/luxs distributed by limiting the angle of diffusion. And As I said, the coverage area is smaller but the light is more powerful in that area. If you want to move plants closer in one scenario and not the other than you don't have a properly controlled experiment. Everything must be kept the same except the bulb orientation to have a true measure of vertical/horizontal efficiency. The horizontal guy can clearly move his plants closer as well. 

And I liked his post for elaborating on the work involved with vertical, not his bashing of heath. I clearly said that vertical grows are more efficient but harder to take advantage of that efficiency.​


*


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## legallyflying (Dec 1, 2012)

I think you just hit the nail on the head for me... more efficient but harder to take advantage of that efficiency. While I agree that training plants around a central bulb or doing some kind of specialized many many small plant operation would rock in vertical, I am pretty much limited to growing trees. The options at this point are huge untrained trees with vertical bulbs or big ass scrogs with horizontal bulbs. 

It seems to me that it is hard..very hard to take advantage of bare vert using big trees for the reasons I stated earlier. You have to have them close to the lights and the insides of the trees get shaded very quickly. While there is obviously a little amount of light lost through using a hood (they don't magnify the lights power, the simply reflect it in a particular direction). So when you are using a bulb in a hood, the light that is traveling up to the reflective surface and then bounced back towards the plants loses its intensity as per the inverse square law. But given that this distance is only like 8" in your typical hood, it seems worth it to me have all the light concentrate on a single plane of SCROG'd tops instead of casting half of the bulbs power on a cylinder object (the trees are generally round.. not flat so the closet point gets lots of light and then the strength diminishes with length as you travel away from the bulb. 

Hope this makes sense. 

Can we let this thread die now?
\


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## Kite High (Dec 1, 2012)

Try both vertical and horizontal and grow trees. Is what I do. Albeit in multiple 5x5x9 rooms. Does well ime. See below. Totally sealed, tank co2 and a mini-split for each, 1600 watts light total. $80/mo elec per room. 20lbs. co2 tank lasts over 2 months. Titan 3 co2 controllers. Yield 3/4 - 1 pound per plant dependent upon strain. Hope it helps.(two overhead horizontals on movers)


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## Kervork (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm doing my first vertical with a 1K. I have a couple plants next to the vertical under a 600 for comparison. Maybe it's wishful thinking but I think the production per watt is higher in the vertical setup. The vertical appears to have more than twice the growth of the 600 flat.

Essentially I have two scrogs, one on each side of the light. 

I read somewhere that you loose 20% of your light with a reflector, and then probably another 10% wasted on the walls. My vertical seems to trap a lot of light compared to flat grows.

I have seen nothing to suggest Heath is a fraud. His designs however are a bit beyond my patience. I also am scared by the not able to adjust distance to light thing. I've pulled anywhere from 12 oz to 28 oz from a 1000 watt flat. My goal with growing vertically was to be able to consistantly pull .8 to 1 grams per watt, ie 28 oz. 

What I've found so far. It took no extra effort to go vertical. The plants don't seem to mind. If I pull over 22 oz I'll probably keep doing it this way.


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## OGEvilgenius (Dec 1, 2012)

Opm said:


> *
> 
> "You will only get good useable light in 16 sq ft using a hood and reflector horizontally. You will get 25 (approximately) sq ft going vertically (using your 2 ft limit, I'd say it's a little bigger than that, but not much).
> 
> ...



All this is true, except the reality is plants only need X amount of light based on other limiting factors, so it's not really worth mentioning. Vertical grows hit the sweet spot, yes reflectors intensify light, but there's only so much you need anyway. So it's pointless. And you can only get your plants somewhat close to a reflector before they get burned or bleached. You can get them a lot closer in a vertical setup before they are burned or bleached and you still have a bigger canopy. So it's overall not a strong point worth even mentioning, although people mention it all the time.

As to the guy and growing trees vertically - there's a thread by Heath on here, you might wanna check out. He's growing trees that he's pulling multiple lbs off of. Using bare bulb 600's.


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## OGEvilgenius (Dec 1, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> I think you just hit the nail on the head for me... more efficient but harder to take advantage of that efficiency. While I agree that training plants around a central bulb or doing some kind of specialized many many small plant operation would rock in vertical, I am pretty much limited to growing trees. The options at this point are huge untrained trees with vertical bulbs or big ass scrogs with horizontal bulbs.
> 
> It seems to me that it is hard..very hard to take advantage of bare vert using big trees for the reasons I stated earlier. You have to have them close to the lights and the insides of the trees get shaded very quickly. While there is obviously a little amount of light lost through using a hood (they don't magnify the lights power, the simply reflect it in a particular direction). So when you are using a bulb in a hood, the light that is traveling up to the reflective surface and then bounced back towards the plants loses its intensity as per the inverse square law. But given that this distance is only like 8" in your typical hood, it seems worth it to me have all the light concentrate on a single plane of SCROG'd tops instead of casting half of the bulbs power on a cylinder object (the trees are generally round.. not flat so the closet point gets lots of light and then the strength diminishes with length as you travel away from the bulb.
> 
> ...


https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/101347-critical-mass-tree-grow-x.html


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## beenthere (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't want to start a pissing contest or insult anyone but done properly, vertical grows always out perform horizontal, as far as watts per sf.

I grow vertically two different ways, one is a stacked 2k watt hexagon SOG with 2 gal hempy's (100% perlite) and the other is a shared 360 tree grow in soil with 1000k watt hps bulbs. We are experimenting with different light/plant configurations. I won't go into detail about plant and light counts but the site where we do the 360 grows is supplemented with solar power, so electrical consumption is not that big of an issue.

But when you have to pay the power company full price like most of us do, my vertical SOG out performs any other type of grow I've done. Sure there are a some down sides to it, like supplying 72 clones and changing the medium every cycle but once you get the program down, it's efficient as hell. 

Vertical scrog is not my cup of tea because of the extended veg time but I could see the benefits for some to do it.

One variable I rarely see brought up when guys are bragging about yields, is the quality of the weed!
As we all know, many of the top shelf strains are not the big yielders, comparing a big bud grow to an OG grow is apples to oranges and so is the price per lb and demand when it comes to selling it to the clubs.

Not knocking anyone's grows but what good is a pic of a giant plant with huge buds if the price per lb of that weed is low or there is really not much demand for it?
Here in the Bay Area,(the land of the pot snobs) the market is so competitive and demanding that if you want the clubs to buy from you on a regular basis, you better have top notch stuff or you're ass out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are just too many variables to consider when talking about yields and efficiency and what is best for any particular grower.


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## tibberous (Dec 3, 2012)

beenthere said:


> Here in the Bay Area,(the land of the pot snobs) the market is so competitive and demanding that if you want the clubs to buy from you on a regular basis, you better have top notch stuff or you're ass out.


Sounds like your area might be an exception - around here everyone is desperate for anything that isn't seedy-ass brick.

Kind of hard to quantify too. Weight is pretty "cut and dry" (pun intended )


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## legallyflying (Dec 3, 2012)

I wish I lived where you lived dude. I think some of you non-med states would shit a Mexican brick if you knew what weed sells for on the open market. Try $150/ounce for grade A.  

Beenthere: any recommendations for the vert tree grower?


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## GR33NL3AF (Dec 3, 2012)

Best I've done is 13.5 from 6000w...SOG grow and I vegg'd longer then normal. Peep this thread, 2.5-3lb per 1000w...


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## Fazer1rlg (Dec 7, 2012)

Doing a sog now 1500watts. 55 plants lookin to get an oz per plant.


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## LIVE2GRO (Dec 20, 2012)

i love when people say heaths full of shit.. more like ur just jealous ... ive seen a couple strains go from a 5 inch clone.. into flower.. and end up a 5 foot plant.. so with the right genetics.. and plant count. or SCREEN.. its deff possible to get more then that.. a friend i know was running a strain horizontal .. and running 2 1000w lights.. 8 plants.. and getting 4 lbs per light. a lb per plant.. very rediculous.. but with the right nutes.. and happy plants.. and the OLD CANNA COCO .. he was hitting RECORD numbers.


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## beenthere (Dec 22, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> I wish I lived where you lived dude. I think some of you non-med states would shit a Mexican brick if you knew what weed sells for on the open market. Try $150/ounce for grade A.
> 
> Beenthere: any recommendations for the vert tree grower?


I haven't dialed in the tree grows (grams/watt) like I have my vertical SOG, but I'm working a new gig with 7 plants and 4 600s utilizing a solar revolution. I'll let you know if it works out.


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## Budoctor (Dec 25, 2012)

Vertical is the way to go ... More light coverage , gets closer to the plants and with some fans the heat can be handled jmho


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## BenFranklin (Dec 26, 2012)

The only advantages that I can see to vertical growing is that you're able to stack your plants on the sides of the room, thereby giving you more "floor space" to put plants.. However.. a 4 foot square space, and 400 watt of light(I use the ratio 400watts|4 foot sq as just an example for explanation purposes)... are both still a 4 foot space and 400 watts of light.....

Just because you're able to put more plants in, doesn't mean you will get more out. A space will only yield what the space will fit. I do understand using all available light and space to train buds to, but, in the end all that messing around comes down to, is it worth it to you, that is the only question you have to answer for yourself. 

You can practically get the same effect, by placing all your buckets in a circle and treating each branch as it's own seperate individual plant, training the branches of your plants around a circular chicken wire cage, that sits inside the plant circle... hang your lights inside the cage, keep training your tops and branches to the cage... Nearly the same effect....


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## mellokitty (Dec 26, 2012)

not my image (credit goes to member Gastanker) but it shows how vert bare bulb provides a wider footprint when working with taller plants. (you hang them lower in the canopy)
been growing large plants in bare vert most of my grow career; i have yet to see a room bigger than 14k done with horizontals+hoods. 

in canada legal grows are limited by plant count; we're working with an allowance of 35.... which means, big plants. 
1kw: 3 plants is the local norm for tree grows.

your points: 
1. vert barebulbs want to be hung a bit lower in the canopy for better penetration/distribution. ours are generally flush with the tops of the plants, a bit higher for vegging.
2. see above. the height/angle from the slightly lower bulb makes a difference, especially vis-a-vis shading. there's a certain amount of LST involved, but not to the extent of a SOG. 
3. see above.
4. sorry, i need to review inverse square law again for the specs, but there's a light vs. distance equation that shows the spread of light being taller by a factor of x per unit of distance from point source. 
5. personal preference, really. 

feel free to drop by the journal, i haven't updated it in ages but a lot of the setup info can be found in the first half of it. (that and mr kitty is the resident engineer, not me.  )


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## BenFranklin (Dec 26, 2012)

Wow, Mellokitty, that is very "en-lightening".... 

I've also seen rotating barrel grows that are placed on their sides in which plants are put in a large round "thing" and spin around the light, the barrel rotates the roots through a reservoir, twice or 4 times an hour. It all seems very intricate.


http://www.4hydroponics.com/hydroponics/items.asp?ItemNo=bonzai <--- Like that one.


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## mellokitty (Dec 27, 2012)

that looks very cutting edge but, personally, too many bells and whistles for me. (mechanical failure makes me want to smash things) 
i briefly ran a modified "cage" system but i never did particularly well with it...... although i chalk part of that up to being young and too impatient to learn as well. 

just for the record i'm a big fan of horizontal SOG/SCROG too, it's just hellish on the plant count.


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## BenFranklin (Dec 29, 2012)

I wished government would get the heck out of the way, it'd be cool to see all of this brought to it's full potential. There is a lot of research that needs to be done, that's been ignored far to long just because of the governments need to tell everyone else what to do.


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## MeekMill (Dec 29, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> Thanks for the tips. We are running 18k watts so I would like to avoid all that training to screens but for sure that seems the best way to run things.
> 
> An just for the record, anyone who has been growing weed awhile knows that Heath Robertson's "record grows" we're complete bullshit.


Where are you running 18k watts ?


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## legallyflying (Dec 30, 2012)

In a van, down by the river.


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## sheik yerbouti (Dec 30, 2012)

I just switched to vertically hung bulbs as I recently picked up a medical license and will be growing trees and hanging the lights vertically between the plants. I switched basically because that's how the big boys do it out here in BC. Line the plants up in rows with bulbs hanging between the plants so that the light gets 360deg of plant around it. I'm currently starting my first grow this way so I can't elaborate on the pro-cons but after seeing the results personally and reading Heath's tree grow I'm sure that it works for getting the most bud out of a small number of plants. Might be less work than trying to train 20 huge plants to scrog also, seems the name of the game is keeping it simple in large operations as I'm sure you know.

Basically the grow I'm emulating gets an average of 3/4 pounds a plant off a 3-4 week veg on an absolutely massive scale, so like you doing a large grow this could work out well for your style if you have the space.


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## legallyflying (Dec 31, 2012)

We shall see. Yeah, you don't have to train through a scrog screen but you do has to brace all those buds . 

So lots and lots of yo yo's or a combination of yoyo and nets


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## thump easy (Dec 31, 2012)

man i stager my plants so that i get a better yield i do one low and the other side a lil hight i alway do realy good look tord the middle they are higher only because i use it like a wall of green my canoppy is no bigger than 16 inches deep but along the middle i use that wall i get a lil more out of the stager fuck the milar silver red i just find experiments to be my love of this game peep the tree from the wallView attachment 2461058know look at if from another anglethats my wall, fuck if only i could sit hear and share all my secrets with you guys you'd flip mabe one day but hope you guys like it im looking to incorperate my aroe with a way to make that wall so that the light doesnt go to waist on the sides


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## thump easy (Dec 31, 2012)

lolz some one taken down my pics thats fucked up lolz damit..


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## thump easy (Dec 31, 2012)

half i been hacked


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## VTMi'kmaq (Dec 31, 2012)

Ive tried both! Mine's back to horizontal with a reflector now.


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## angel4us (Jan 9, 2013)

here is whole key....by vertically scrog training in veg u eliminate virtually all work in flowering as far as supporting buds that would otherwise be falling into or away from light . advantage number two of vertical scrog over horizontal is two fold -upkeep on plants is right in front of you ,no crawling under scrog to keep lower shit from growing or to do defoliation as needed.... and there is no loss from reflector /law of 1/distance squared loss rule-----as long as u veg enough to make vertical panels to enclose a cylinder around you bulb.... ONCE you get used to the increased yeilds youll feel much better


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