# Are there many of us???



## kiwipaulie (Mar 20, 2016)

I look at the number of discussions / messages and the vert section has fuck all compared to the others. 

I'm only two weeks in my first vert flower run and I don't see myself going back to horizontal grows. 

I just wonder why others haven't jumped on the band wagon


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## Michael Huntherz (Mar 20, 2016)

kiwipaulie said:


> I look at the number of discussions / messages and the vert section has fuck all compared to the others.
> 
> I'm only two weeks in my first vert flower run and I don't see myself going back to horizontal grows.
> 
> I just wonder why others haven't jumped on the band wagon


That's a great question. 
Since governments are so concerned with the number of root systems we possess vertical growing makes doubly more sense. I'm considering it myself, but I need to get to a friendly state and buy a home first. I can't, and don't want to, do the modifications I want to a rental. 
I lurk here a lot, maybe it is just too much thought and work for folks who lack vision? 
I think a lot more people aspire to vert than are doing it.


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## skunkwreck (Mar 20, 2016)

My next grow is gonna be vertical !


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## Banana444 (Mar 21, 2016)

I dont think you could even get close to g/watt in a horizontal setup with hid lamps. My best was about .5g/watt of lighting used. Switching to vert im getting .75g/watt and getting better quickly, all in soil with no co2. Oh and my setup stays cooler than when i used aircooled hoods.


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## Banana444 (Mar 21, 2016)

There may not be many in the vert section because once you start growing vert, you have no freetime to be on here with all the bud you have to trim...


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## Waiks (Mar 22, 2016)

Got any pics of your setup?

I'm going vert this upcoming run. 
I learned a lot from ttystick and icmag vert section. Marlos wow thread..


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## Banana444 (Mar 22, 2016)

Sorry bout the hps but heres 2 verts, the for is dna genetics-djs gold, and the aft is crockets tangie, both 600w hortiluxs both bulbs getting replaced after this. I just put the indagro420 over the tops of the tangie and there are 2 cree [email protected] each cover the tops of djs gold...all organic super soil (i posted a thread of my mix in the organic section for future reference). Pot size is 10-15gal.


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## Banana444 (Mar 22, 2016)

Djs gold


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## Banana444 (Mar 22, 2016)

Bud shot


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## Banana444 (Mar 22, 2016)

My led tent, overflowing...12cxb3590s, 2 cxa3590s and an a51 rw150


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## Waiks (Mar 22, 2016)

Beautiful man! Real clean.

Looks like the two vert bulb donuts take up about the same space as the LED tent.
Around the same wattage it appears, how's the yield between the two? (Verts vs tent) G/sq ft of each? What is easier as far as maintenence and training? 

Thanks braddah.


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## kiwipaulie (Mar 23, 2016)

Banana444 said:


> View attachment 3638871
> Bud shot


That's some awesome shit!!!!!!!


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## kiwipaulie (Mar 23, 2016)

Waiks said:


> Beautiful man! Real clean.
> 
> Looks like the two vert bulb donuts take up about the same space as the LED tent.
> Around the same wattage it appears, how's the yield between the two? (Verts vs tent) G/sq ft of each? What is easier as far as maintenence and training?
> ...


Here's my first vert run now.


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## kiwipaulie (Mar 23, 2016)

Next time, ill be fixing a screen to the back of a pot and putting one in the door. I'm missing out on a huge area at the moment.


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## kiwipaulie (Mar 23, 2016)

Waiks said:


> Beautiful man! Real clean.
> 
> Looks like the two vert bulb donuts take up about the same space as the LED tent.
> Around the same wattage it appears, how's the yield between the two? (Verts vs tent) G/sq ft of each? What is easier as far as maintenence and training?
> ...


Maintenance in imo is far easier vert


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## Banana444 (Mar 23, 2016)

Waiks said:


> Beautiful man! Real clean.
> 
> Looks like the two vert bulb donuts take up about the same space as the LED tent.
> Around the same wattage it appears, how's the yield between the two? (Verts vs tent) G/sq ft of each? What is easier as far as maintenence and training?
> ...


Yea they take up about a 4x8, which is what the tent is, plus a little space to get around. This is the first time i have had all 3 of the led lights together, and theres a mix of different strains under the leds. But for about a 4x4 area each the vert yields better, but i can grow much larger plants and am using more power in the vert setup. Been averaging about a # with just a 600, hoping for more woth the additional lighting over top plus these 2 runs are with all clones from my best two plants over the last year, which were real good yielders. Cant wait to see what i get from this one.


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## kachiga (Apr 3, 2016)

I honestly have never heard of vertical growing till I just started reading these... Granted I only been at this a bit over a year but still, it looks really cool. I just am very baffled by it atm. Much like a caveman when he first saw fire and touched it. For me it's new grounds and I gotta read a ton about it first.

Is it like, making a full plant just run up the wall instead of standing like a plant? I think I get the idea of it, to spread the plant out among the wall so that all of the plant can get light? So it travels the wall, but the middle stays open?

One this is for sure, I have a lot of reading. Some of you make it look like a jungle, almost like grapes or something on a vine it's crazy lol. If that's the case I may try this on my next grow with some ghost train.

But to me, a scrog is like a plant chopped in sections and put in an even row. This seems like a plant cut in half and pasted onto the wall. I be interested in reading if any one did a scrog vs vert grow, that be a good read.

Really neat stuff.


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## m4s73r (Apr 3, 2016)

Theres a few grow journals floating around here showing a few ways to do it. Im running 4 20 gallons around 2k light. Depending on what i harvest I may not have to grow again till next year.


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## SPLFreak808 (Apr 3, 2016)

Waiks said:


> Beautiful man! Real clean.
> 
> Looks like the two vert bulb donuts take up about the same space as the LED tent.
> Around the same wattage it appears, how's the yield between the two? (Verts vs tent) G/sq ft of each? What is easier as far as maintenence and training?
> ...


Eh waiks, your running a/c yeah? Hit me up when you get started on that vert so i can copy your setup lmao


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## Michael Huntherz (Apr 4, 2016)

kachiga said:


> I honestly have never heard of vertical growing till I just started reading these... Granted I only been at this a bit over a year but still, it looks really cool. I just am very baffled by it atm. Much like a caveman when he first saw fire and touched it. For me it's new grounds and I gotta read a ton about it first.
> 
> Is it like, making a full plant just run up the wall instead of standing like a plant? I think I get the idea of it, to spread the plant out among the wall so that all of the plant can get light? So it travels the wall, but the middle stays open?
> 
> ...


I learned recently, from the inimitable @ttystikk it s called "espalier" in traditional agriculture. Grapes are probably a good example of a common use for it. When I buy my next house I'll be going full vert, no question.


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## ttystikk (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Huntherz said:


> I learned recently, from the inimitable @ttystikk it s called "espalier" in traditional agriculture. Grapes are probably a good example of a common use for it. When I buy my next house I'll be going full vert, no question.


In between glasses of red wine, those old French vintners knew a thing or two about growing. Come to think of it, the red wine itself was another secret of health and happiness!


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## mean.green (Apr 15, 2016)

Does this count as vertical growing?


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## ttystikk (Apr 15, 2016)

mean.green said:


> Does this count as vertical growing?
> View attachment 3657972


Not yet. Start lighting those girls from the side and it will be.


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## THCBrain (Apr 15, 2016)

I would give vert a bash but can't for the life of me think how to set it up... but it is intriguing


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## ttystikk (Apr 15, 2016)

THCBrain said:


> I would give vert a bash but can't for the life of me think how to set it up... but it is intriguing


Bulb beside plant.


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## kiwipaulie (Apr 20, 2016)

THCBrain said:


> I would give vert a bash but can't for the life of me think how to set it up... but it is intriguing


Its really not rocket science, just take your hood off and hang that shit!!


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## ttystikk (Apr 20, 2016)

kiwipaulie said:


> Its really not rocket science, just take your hood off and hang that shit!!


That's right; go naked, it just feels better and the girls love it!

Oh- wait, we're talking about plants, aren't we?


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## a senile fungus (Apr 20, 2016)

I would like to emulate @PKHydro 's set up. 

Eventually 


As funds allow.


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## goofy81 (Jul 23, 2016)

I'd still be doing vertical if i had high ceilings and a small space.
Using leds now which I think favors canopy moremore.
Here's a photo of the last half vertical setup I did years ago( half because I had lights on top too).


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## ttystikk (Jul 23, 2016)

goofy81 said:


> I'd still be doing vertical if i had high ceilings and a small space.
> Using leds now which I think favors canopy moremore.
> Here's a photo of the last half vertical setup I did years ago( half because I had lights on top too).


Looking lush! 

I don't think it matters which way the light is oriented, my COB LED kicks ass in all directions!


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## goofy81 (Jul 23, 2016)

I've always believed vertical was done to fully utilize a HPS/MH light bulbs even 360 degree light spread. LEDS are directional so theres's really no point doing vertical. Unless someone can prove me wrong.


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## ttystikk (Jul 23, 2016)

goofy81 said:


> I've always believed vertical was done to fully utilize a HPS/MH light bulbs even 360 degree light spread. LEDS are directional so theres's really no point doing vertical. Unless someone can prove me wrong.


Time you read my thread, mate.


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## grapefruitmarmalade (Jul 23, 2016)

I tried vert once and it wasn't suitable for me or my grow area.
I've since switched to LEDs
ps: I find training plans horizontally a lot more enjoyable


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## 9leaves (Jul 23, 2016)

If that isn't the most impressive grow I have ever seen. Holy Cow. I wish someday I could do that. Not enough room for me. You really have a cool thing here.


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## Michael Huntherz (Jul 23, 2016)

goofy81 said:


> I've always believed vertical was done to fully utilize a HPS/MH light bulbs even 360 degree light spread. LEDS are directional so theres's really no point doing vertical. Unless someone can prove me wrong.


Dude, the square footage of grow-space is still massive, and there are little tricks that make the difference. I don't want to give away the farm, but yeah, tricks that aren't even uncommon.

You may end up using more LEDs per square foot of floor space, but you still have *more grow area per floor area*. Adding lights is one thing, reframing the building...well, not as much.


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## ttystikk (Jul 23, 2016)

Michael Huntherz said:


> Dude, the square footage of grow-space is still massive, and there are little tricks that make the difference. I don't want to give away the farm, but yeah, tricks that aren't even uncommon.
> 
> You may end up using more LEDs per square foot of floor space, but you still have *more grow area per floor area*. Adding lights is one thing, reframing the building...well, not as much.


If you needed proof of how far off the beaten path we are brother, this is it.


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## Vnsmkr (Jul 23, 2016)

All mine has been outdoor till now but the 1st one indoor will certainly be vertical. I dont see any other way


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## Lucky Luke (Jul 24, 2016)

Im experimenting with a fridge grow during the off season. I'll give that a season or two and get that dialed and maybe give the vertical grow a go. Seems the possibilities of heavy yields is high....and its cool.

DWC and verti would be a great match IMO...


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## ttystikk (Jul 24, 2016)

Lucky Luke said:


> Im experimenting with a fridge grow during the off season. I'll give that a season or two and get that dialed and maybe give the vertical grow a go. Seems the possibilities of heavy yields is high....and its cool.
> 
> DWC and verti would be a great match IMO...


That's been my MO for years. I'm switching to coco to improve consistency of results.


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## OneHitDone (Jul 24, 2016)

goofy81 said:


> I've always believed vertical was done to fully utilize a HPS/MH light bulbs even 360 degree light spread. LEDS are directional so theres's really no point doing vertical. Unless someone can prove me wrong.


I would have to at this point in time agree with @goofy81 
If I can put 4 plants in a space around a 1000W lamp and effectively be applying 250W per Trellis - that is impressive. If I were to switch to led and have to point 1000W or even 600-700W if they are more efficient at each trellis, that just doesn't make any sense. The wattage/canopy ratio is no better than just adding more horizontal space.
I will see soon what 250W per Trellis will deliver


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## ttystikk (Jul 24, 2016)

OneHitDone said:


> I would have to at this point in time agree with @goofy81
> If I can put 4 plants in a space around a 1000W lamp and effectively be applying 250W per Trellis - that is impressive. If I were to switch to led and have to point 1000W or even 600-700W if they are more efficient at each trellis, that just doesn't make any sense. The wattage/canopy ratio is no better than just adding more horizontal space.
> I will see soon what 250W per Trellis will deliver
> View attachment 3740212


It will deliver 250W per trellis.


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## OneHitDone (Jul 24, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> It will deliver 250W per trellis.


I don't think any single 250W hps is going to deliver what is hanging on my trellis


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## thewanderingjack (Jul 31, 2016)

Hmm lots going on here...

As to why vert isn't more popular... so many reasons... it is very misunderstood, people are very used to horizontal, and it can be more planning/work to set up/maintain... it's also a horizontal world... sometimes hard to make things meant to be used horizontally work vertically, or to find things made for vertical growing... you know that at one point people tried to popular round houses... lots of advantages (heating, cooling, other stuff I forget). Major disadvantage: nothing's made for round houses. Pipes, furniture... most stuff in that vein... is meant to go against a flat wall.

Horizontal is what we're used to, what most things are made for (planters, trays, etc etc) and whats easiest/most convenient. After all, to start my horizontal grow I just put a bunch of pots in the corner... for a good vertical, I would have had to build some sort of framework, and one sturdy enough to hold all that weight... or spent a lot of time training, depending on my route.

There's also circumstances... I have ~3'Wx4'Lx7'H space... A vertical grow would work well... I could fit so many plants!!! But, I only grow for myself. It'd would be overkill for me to do that, and it'd be a lot more work... from the planning and setting up to the taking care of that many plants... and while my return would increase (i.e.: yields to input ratio), my initial expenditure would as well, i.e.: aside from more work, I would need to pay more per month as I waited for each harvest (which would thankfully be much greater, bringing me out ahead). That's not always convenient for everyone.

For me, it works out to have a small number of plans and do a perpetual harvest, splitting my space vertically into a veg chamber on top and flowering on the bottom. My returns still save me a huge sum (at least 50% compared to buying it a the shop... and this is from a really haphazard grow and counting the cost of reusable materials... so my future grows will only improve those returns... which is more than enough for me).

Of course I have been considering vertical... but with so many options, it's hard to know what might work best for me. I've thought about dipping into it with a half stadium set up in my current space: a stair going up from the right wall to the left, with the lamp hung where the right wall meets the ceiling (opposite the rise, angled towards it/the plants... haha I should probably upload a sketch). This is mostly to give each plant more room, and hopefully more light, rather than fitting more plants... I keep going back and forth on what would work better for me, more plants or bigger ones. Right now I have six in there and they're pretty crowded.

As to the LED/HPS thing, I feel like I missed something... a) the 360 nature of high powered bulbs is _one_ reason people do vertical grows, not *the* reason... if there is a THE reason, it is to maximize space usage. Generally speaking there is a lot of wasted space in horizontal growing... meaning space that's not really serving a purpose. People want to maximize their useful horizontal space. i.e.: you want plenty of room in your living room to move around (or sit around, or whatever) in. If you take all the stuff in the room and spread it out so no one item is on (or in) any other, it would take a lot of horizontal space. So you stack things vertically. This is also why we have really tall buildings in cities: horizontal space is at a premium... vertical space is pretty much free.

As to the lights... CFLs emit 360 degrees (horizontally ).. there are LED cob lights that do the same... or you could just as easily angle the lights. My LED grow light is unidirectional, with maybe a 45 degree spread... so two side by side, angled away from each other, could light half a circle, or a full stadium setup (which is the same thing really heh). 



Michael Huntherz said:


> Dude, the square footage of grow-space is still massive, and there are little tricks that make the difference. I don't want to give away the farm, but yeah, tricks that aren't even uncommon.
> 
> You may end up using more LEDs per square foot of floor space, but you still have *more grow area per floor area*. Adding lights is one thing, reframing the building...well, not as much.


Huh?



OneHitDone said:


> If I can put 4 plants in a space around a 1000W lamp and effectively be applying 250W per Trellis - that is impressive. If I were to switch to led and have to point 1000W or even 600-700W if they are more efficient at each trellis, that just doesn't make any sense. The wattage/canopy ratio is no better than just adding more horizontal space.


Again, huh? it doesn't make any sense that you would be switching from pointing 250 watts at each trellis to pointing 600-700w at each one... yeah it doesn't. Why would you "have" to do that with LEDs?


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## OneHitDone (Jul 31, 2016)

thewanderingjack said:


> Again, huh? it doesn't make any sense that you would be switching from pointing 250 watts at each trellis to pointing 600-700w at each one... yeah it doesn't. Why would you "have" to do that with LEDs?


Show me an led on the market that can effectively light a 4x6 with 250W


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## thewanderingjack (Jul 31, 2016)

I don't know of any, but I really don't know much about that many... my cheap one does 3x4 at 300 watts, and it's like a toy compared to things like cree lights, from what I've gathered... so I kinda think they must be out there, but then again you're probably right and they're not there yet.

My imagination is now filling with thought of how it _could_ _be_ possible...


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

thewanderingjack said:


> Hmm lots going on here...
> 
> As to why vert isn't more popular... so many reasons... it is very misunderstood, people are very used to horizontal, and it can be more planning/work to set up/maintain... it's also a horizontal world... sometimes hard to make things meant to be used horizontally work vertically, or to find things made for vertical growing... you know that at one point people tried to popular round houses... lots of advantages (heating, cooling, other stuff I forget). Major disadvantage: nothing's made for round houses. Pipes, furniture... most stuff in that vein... is meant to go against a flat wall.
> 
> ...


TL;DR past where you said it was hard/unproven.

"Pole beans".

Vertical is not new, nor is it difficult. The simple fact is that they sell more shit at the hydro store for flatlander grows because they're all about the money, not your output.

Look up the term 'Espalier'- proof that the French have been growing vertically at scale for fucking centuries now, lol

But you're right about two things; vertical growing isn't pushed and there isn't a lot of stuff purpose built for it. I aim to change that with a line of vertical growing equipment and supplies I'll be selling to commercial operators and enlightened home growers. Maybe even here, if y'all ask nicely.


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## Thorhax (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> TL;DR past where you said it was hard/unproven.
> 
> "Pole beans".
> 
> ...


asking nicely please. I WANT MAOR DANK


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

OneHitDone said:


> Show me an led on the market that can effectively light a 4x6 with 250W


Word. I'm currently doing it with 900W per 4x6' @60% PARW efficiency and I'm working with some folks on getting that down while maintaining optimal irradiance levels. 

Even at 100% conversion efficiency, physics tells us that 250W just won't do it.


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> asking nicely please. I WANT MAOR DANK


Have ya looked through the last few pages of my thread, brother?


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## Thorhax (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Have ya looked through the last few pages of my thread, brother?


on it homie


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## sixstring2112 (Jul 31, 2016)

goofy81 said:


> I'd still be doing vertical if i had high ceilings and a small space.
> Using leds now which I think favors canopy moremore.
> Here's a photo of the last half vertical setup I did years ago( half because I had lights on top too).


one of the better looking vert canopies i have seen in a while.but i also see some flat panels up top,hard to tell exactly how much light is getting tossed at this op from the cropped pic and tiny pixel size lol.
but i think its easy to neglect the fact that vert growing looks good in pics but on paper it comes out about equal or even less.for instance,a 1000w lamp covers 5 x 5 no problem,i actually think my gavita 750w covers much more than that.my plants are 5 x 5 x 5.5high with usable nugs to the soil because i know how to light a room. so with 5 x 5 you get 25 square feet,plus the 5.5 height,lets say 4 feet there for comparison.you get 25 sq ft x 4 ft high = 100 cubic feet (even though i think im closer to 120 cu ft) of quality buds from a single lamp.now take a well know members # which has been posted umpteen times here of 4 x 6 trellis,thats 24 square feet if in fact the trellis was full from edge to edge(which is does not appear to be lol) x lets say his canopy is 1 foot deep or thick. you get 24 cubic feet,even if we bump that to 1.5 feet deep thats only 36cu ft.what i see from pics looks to be about 8 in deep or .75 feet lol.now you factor in how much space it takes to set up these trellis x 4 (100 cubic feet ) to make a full circle around the lamps and if thats all your doing in the room great,you can take a 10 x 10 room drop this trellis contraption into it which will use at least 6 x 6 (probably more like 7 x 7) and barely give you room to walk around the outside for maint.now to me it starts to sound like a waste of space real quick for maybe a small bump in gpw if done perfectly.warehouse growers are all about the gpw(grams per watt ) now dont you think after all this time of legal warehouse grows documented on instagram we would see a shit load of vertical setups by now if it was better in all the ways its portrayed by some?
yes theres lots of ways to skin cats,although as a cat owner i would not recommend skinning them at all,but to answer the op question,vert style setups to most is just way too much work for very little if any reward.but its def cool to see all the dif methods of trying to squeeze a few more grams out of the typical lighting used to grow indoors.


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

Much like parachutes, minds must be open to work properly.


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## sixstring2112 (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Much like parachutes, butts must be open to work properly.


i think you meant to say butts so i fixed it for ya


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## thewanderingjack (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> TL;DR past where you said it was hard/unproven.


Huh?.. as in the sentence doesn't make sense to me...



ttystikk said:


> "Pole beans".
> 
> Vertical is not new, nor is it difficult. The simple fact is that they sell more shit at the hydro store for flatlander grows because they're all about the money, not your output.
> 
> Look up the term 'Espalier'- proof that the French have been growing vertically at scale for fucking centuries now, lol


When did I say it was new? Or anything like that... nope... I said it wasn't the common practice, as you are obviously aware. It IS new to a lot of individuals who just haven't seen or thought about it before... or at the very least haven't tried it before... which is one of the reasons it's so misunderstood.

So, yeah... weird.

It seems to me we both totally agree: vertical growing has been around for... idk... millenia (hanging Gardens of Babylon anyone?)... but despite it's many benefits, it's never been popularized, which means most people don't know much about it, and most products aren't made for it.

We may disagree somewhat on the difficulty... I'd say it is "more difficult" than horizontal growing... but that's really depends more on the set up... You can totally make a vert garden that's less work to set up and mainain that a horizontal one, depending how each is set up... but at the most basic it is easier to do horizontal (plant in pot, pot on the ground, light above it, done). Though like you mentioned, using things like poles or espalier set ups going vertical is only slightly more work (plant in pot, pot on ground, plant trained up, light sideways)... and in the end, it's like anything else: the idea is that more work setting up will yield you proportionally greater returns.

Cannabis could be the crop that brings it mainstream.

I am seeing more products made for it recently (specifically vertical grow boxes), looking forward to seeing what you come up with (though I won't ask nicely, cuz I don't... I'm a DIY kinda guy).


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## pinner420 (Jul 31, 2016)

On the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of flatlanders, wilst waiting to surpass .5 grams a Watt waited and while waiting their power bills made them scratch their head in search of a way to use all of their bulb instead of half.


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## Vnsmkr (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I aim to change that with a line of vertical growing equipment and supplies I'll be selling to commercial operators and enlightened home growers. Maybe even here, if y'all ask nicely.


I think that would be well received!


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## thewanderingjack (Jul 31, 2016)

pinner420 said:


> On the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of flatlanders, wilst waiting to surpass .5 grams a Watt waited and while waiting their power bills made them scratch their head in search of a way to use all of their bulb instead of half.


Meh... my LED is unidirectional, so I already use the whole thing  My bills are negligible as it is... I use more power to heat my desk area than to grow my plants, and still get (what I find to be) acceptable returns.

It _is_ weird that, with most people being all about the greatest yields more don't turn to vertical... but hey, hydroponics took a while to take off too. Aeroponics hasn't yet.


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

thewanderingjack said:


> Huh?.. as in the sentence doesn't make sense to me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like we are much closer to the same page than I thought.


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## thewanderingjack (Aug 1, 2016)

So my imagination was working on it...

Of course I got more questions than answers. How much more efficient is LED than HPS or MH (watts converted to light vs heat) and then, how much more efficient is narrow LED lighting (Red/Blue) than full spectrum lighting... in terms of "wasted" light. Taking into account also that you could put the lights closer, so you'd get great intensity.

Even assuming we could replace the 250 per trellis with 250 or less in LED, it would definitely take something like a custom light set up to get the coverage, because of LEDs narrower range. I guess LED t5 tubes would work... I have seen CFL tubes used like that to good effect.

I wish I could experiment... I'm really torn between LEDs not being there yet to it just taking the right configuration. My 300 watt LED has 50x6w LEDs with lenses... and does 3x4... but it really seems set up to act like a typical light (more intense in the center and less at the periphery). But maybe spaced out to even coverage... it goes back to the efficiency.

For me it's also not just about watts of light used, but overall KWhrs... so if using a few more LEDs still came out cheaper than managing the temperature, it would still work out better... so long as yields were the same... on the other hand if it cost me a bit more to do the high powered light AND to cool the room (if needed) while yielding more bud to not just offset the cost (which would then be even) but come out ahead, then yeah... bottom line is return for investment.


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## Vnsmkr (Aug 1, 2016)

I always get tickled at people who talk and talk and talk and see the results in front of their eyes, but they just keep talking (I am not talking about you thewanderingjack, just in general). To you people who yap incessantly questioning others, yes all of you, either take a shit or get off the pot.


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## thewanderingjack (Aug 1, 2016)

Vnsmkr said:


> I always get tickled at people who talk and talk and talk and see the results in front of their eyes, but they just keep talking (I am not talking about you thewanderingjack, just in general). To you people who yap incessantly questioning others, yes all of you, either take a shit or get off the pot.


Yeah, discussion is good, I love a good "what if?" and playing devil's advocate... but argumentative poop flinging is just... idk bat $h!t crazy?

My take is that every system and set up has a place. CFLs were kick ass for getting me started growing, but some people insist you can't grow a decent plant using CFL. Some whack nut cursed me out in some other thread because he said LED users were all just struggling... which I'm not in the least, and said so (not rudely... just said "I use one, and I'm not struggling")... of course he also seemed to have a problem with organic growing for some reason...

I don't see where doing anything vertical (other than side lighting) can benefit me in my space (3Wx4Lx4H) in terms of production that I can't achieve with Topping, LST and/or SOG/SCROG... But it would be amazing if I raised my H up to 7 ft... I could then make a tower with center lighting and fit waaaay more plants. It would also be too much pot for me at one time... and more work to maintain (more plants, more work).

I should think things would be better if a) there were separate forums for commercial growers (just looking for max yields) and hobbyists (looking for max yields out of certain situations, or looking to experiment) b) people didn't choose to troll... it seems a lot of times arguments are started when someone purposefully goes into threads they disagree with just to argue that the whole idea is crap.


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