# Should We Tolerate Religion?



## mountainSpliff (Jan 11, 2008)

Should we be tolerating religion when it is the cause of war and ignorance?

Religions dont tolerate each other or anyone outside them. 

Why should we tolerate religion?


----------



## jsbfootball (Jan 11, 2008)

thats stupid....are you going to tell someone they cant believe in something...thats pretty much against all human moral codes


----------



## undertheice (Jan 11, 2008)

we tolerate religion only because we must. what is bred of ignorance and fear can only be abolished when ignorance and fear are abolished.


----------



## jsbfootball (Jan 11, 2008)

ignorance can never be 'abolished' i bet there are less than a handful of people on this earth that are rid of those can rid their ignorance or fear...but i dont want to sound like a dick...im just thinking of plato's cave


----------



## Hiesman (Jan 11, 2008)

that is a question only you yourself can answer... only when the masses of people learn to discipline themselves and not be swayed by an institution such as religion. its all about self discipline with that you can achieve any goal.


----------



## jsbfootball (Jan 11, 2008)

i dont think its the religion itself that could necessarily sway to violence someone but through their attachment to something that is greater than they are...and their own fear of death is where their anger comes, willing to go to further extremes to see their own destiny succeed....just throwing some ideas around i dunno if it makes total sense


----------



## Inneedofbuds (Jan 11, 2008)

I guess it depends on what you mean by tolerate. I don't hate anyone for what the believe, but I will get in their face and argue with them for hours on end and explain to them why I think what the believe is ridiculous. I'm like a backwards missionary (sounds like a sex position), its my goal in life to get as many people as I can to abandon their religious beliefs.


----------



## Hiesman (Jan 11, 2008)

yea thats what i was getting at... those with no self discipline can not control ignorant emotions.


----------



## jsbfootball (Jan 11, 2008)

xthen wouldnt arguing with someone to tell them they are 'wrong' with their beliefs be a lack of self control....and then it could be said the other way around .... the person thats defending their religion could say that you have no self discipline...but its all relative truths to what you believe...a universal truth is the only real truth and i guess that is the knowledge of one owns self....think outside the cave ! (or try to at least)


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 11, 2008)

Religions were created to control people. They were made by intelligent people. Thats why so many people believe the lie. 

If you can admit that there are people out there who are far more intelligent than yourself, then maybe you can start seeing the truth. 
The truth being that nobody really knows whats out there.
Anyone can be manipulated in some or other way.

Most religions were created by intelligent people as a means of control.
Others were journeys of discovery into the inner mind.

Some of these religions have become an excuse to commit genocide.

Should we tolerate these religions? I think not.


----------



## jsbfootball (Jan 11, 2008)

this is a statement i came up with for one of my classes..."religion is the acception of death, it gives people the willpower to endure. it brings change through the direction of consciousness" i agree with you spliff....i KNOW that religion was created for a purpose....but i dont want to believe it ...cause in reality...everyone dies alone ...and that is a very scary fact that over 99% of the population including myself can not accept....and of course there are people smarter than i am....religons that were created from journeys, i dont know so much about ...can you give me an example...and also keep in mind that it could be created to show a grandeur allusion of the mobility of consciousness to persuade someone to act a certain way...making it just like all other religions, for control...sorry about the rampling


----------



## Reprogrammed (Jan 12, 2008)

I've met plenty of Atheists who are pretty fucking ignorant.

It's not religion's fault that a lot of people misinterpret the messages or apply outdated ones to this day and age. There are also a lot of religious teachings that tell people to leave others alone who aren't of the faith. For God's sake, Gautama Buddha even said do not listen to him unless what he says matches up to your own common sense.

I fear the day when CLOSEMINDED people attempt to abolish religion altogether. They'll learn very quickly that it gives some warmth where there is only cold, and hope when there is only strife.

Understand what you're asking, and then speak.


----------



## Inneedofbuds (Jan 12, 2008)

Ignorant people get warmth from fairy tales when they lack understanding. Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 12, 2008)

jsbfootball said:


> this is a statement i came up with for one of my classes..."religion is the acception of death, it gives people the willpower to endure. it brings change through the direction of consciousness" i agree with you spliff....i KNOW that religion was created for a purpose....but i dont want to believe it ...cause in reality...everyone dies alone ...and that is a very scary fact that over 99% of the population including myself can not accept....and of course there are people smarter than i am....religons that were created from journeys, i dont know so much about ...can you give me an example...and also keep in mind that it could be created to show a grandeur allusion of the mobility of consciousness to persuade someone to act a certain way...making it just like all other religions, for control...sorry about the rampling


Good point.



Reprogrammed said:


> I've met plenty of Atheists who are pretty fucking ignorant.
> 
> It's not religion's fault that a lot of people misinterpret the messages or apply outdated ones to this day and age. There are also a lot of religious teachings that tell people to leave others alone who aren't of the faith. For God's sake, Gautama Buddha even said do not listen to him unless what he says matches up to your own common sense.
> 
> ...


Yes there are atheists who are religiously atheist, which I find rediculous.
I am not talking about abolishing relgion. I would however like to see the day when religion doesn't affect the decision making of the worlds most powerful people.

Also, how can you understand if you don't ask?


----------



## undertheice (Jan 12, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> Yes there are atheists who are religiously atheist, which I find ridiculous.


an atheist, by the act of denying that which he can neither prove nor disprove, must have taken a leap of faith similar to that taken by those who embrace religious doctrine. in this sense, atheism is really no more rational than religious fervor. the only difference between the two is what leads up to that final decision. of course there are those who chose the path of non-belief just to be contrary, just as there are those who adopt a religion merely fit in with the majority. 



> I am not talking about abolishing religion. I would however like to see the day when religion doesn't affect the decision making of the worlds most powerful people.


when a man's entire world view is warped by the dogma of the church, all of his decisions will be shaded by that faith. you cannot separate a man's most deep seated beliefs from his every day actions. there will always be an element of religious elitism in politics until our leaders are able to divorce themselves from the fantasy world of religion and embrace a more rational outlook.


----------



## undertheice (Jan 12, 2008)

Reprogrammed said:


> It's not religion's fault that a lot of people misinterpret the messages or apply outdated ones to this day and age.


 isn't that the point of organized religion, to maintain the status quo? the very nature of religion precludes change. the word of god must be unchanging or god will be proved to have been mistaken and gods *cannot* make mistakes. any change in dogma takes decades because those changes must be cloaked in layer upon layer of misdirection or the faithful may catch on that their sacred texts are nothing more than the words of man.



> I fear the day when CLOSEMINDED people attempt to abolish religion altogether.


 don't be too concerned. only the powerful could ever even attempt to tear down what has taken centuries to erect and religion is far too useful a tool to be discarded without something equally insidious to take its place.



> They'll learn very quickly that it gives some warmth where there is only cold, and hope when there is only strife.


false hope and the illusion of comfort, these are the greatest tools ever developed to enslave the minds of men. while the masses toil, hoping to attain some otherworldly paradise, the powerful reap the rewards of their labor and laugh heartily at the gullibility of their unwitting slaves. while their children go cold and hungry, the faithful tithe willingly and warm themselves in the camaraderie of poverty and despair. such are the gifts of the god myth and its attendants.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 12, 2008)

undertheice said:


> when a man's entire world view is warped by the dogma of the church, all of his decisions will be shaded by that faith. you cannot separate a man's most deep seated beliefs from his every day actions. there will always be an element of religious elitism in politics until our leaders are able to divorce themselves from the fantasy world of religion and embrace a more rational outlook.


It doesn't matter how deap seated a man's bullshit is. It's still bullshit.
I believe there should be less tolerance for peoples bullshit.

Rational and logical thinking is the way forward in my mind.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 12, 2008)

oops, please excuse my ridiculous spelling...


----------



## undertheice (Jan 12, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> It doesn't matter how deep seated a man's bullshit is. It's still bullshit.
> I believe there should be less tolerance for peoples bullshit.


reason is a process and is complicated by the vagaries of the human mind. what some see as logic, others consider blasphemy. unluckily, we live in a world where fantasy holds sway.



mountainSpliff said:


> oops, please excuse my ridiculous spelling...


one of my many faults is my tendency to correct others' spelling mistakes when i quote them. if i believed in reincarnation i would tend to think i was an english teacher in a past life.


----------



## Lacy (Jan 12, 2008)

*Well of course we should. Its people's right to believe in what they choose. Not our right to judge either.*

*I think we should be as tolerant as we possibly can be of others. No if's or but's about it. *
*PEACE!!!!!!!!!*


mountainSpliff said:


> Should we be tolerating religion when it is the cause of war and ignorance?
> 
> Religions dont tolerate each other or anyone outside them.
> 
> Why should we tolerate religion?


----------



## Lacy (Jan 12, 2008)

*Yes and the main point is that it is YOUR mind only and thankfully you are the minority.*

*Sorry but...*


mountainSpliff said:


> It doesn't matter how deap seated a man's bullshit is. It's still bullshit.
> I believe there should be less tolerance for peoples bullshit.
> 
> Rational and logical thinking is the way forward in my mind.


----------



## jsbfootball (Jan 12, 2008)

undertheice said:


> what some see as logic, others consider blasphemy.


can u explain that cause im really thinking thats not true in the least


----------



## Reprogrammed (Jan 12, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> It doesn't matter how deap seated a man's bullshit is. It's still bullshit.
> I believe there should be less tolerance for peoples bullshit.
> 
> Rational and logical thinking is the way forward in my mind.


The arrogance of "rational" people will always astound me to no end.

The fact of the matter is this: NO ONE KNOWS WHY WE ARE HERE. NO ONE KNOWS WHAT WE ARE HERE TO DO, IF ANYTHING. NO ONE KNOWS HOW THE EARTH WAS CREATED.

And no one knows what happens after we die. It is a choice of faith. Whether you choose "logic" or no, it is all a matter of faith.

I take it you believe in science, correct? How about this: all science is a metaphor. Just because something falls, and Newton gave it a name, doesn't mean it was "gravity"'s fault. It could be a cold and faceless force, just as easily as the hand of some deity. Just because we observe dust and particles compressing into planets, doesn't mean we possess the hindsight to know how OUR planet was created. For all we know, it was shaped by the hands of Chronos. You're doing the same thing that religion does: connecting the dots.

Do not misunderstand, I will be the first to point out the follies of zealots, but just because they have chosen a personal idol (I do not use that in a derogatory way), doesn't make you any better.

YOU are a follower of the 1st Church of "Logic", an infant *religion *that was almost throttled in the crib, but now is back with pretentious vengeance. And essentially you are spouting the same rhetoric as other misguided religious followers: My beliefs are better than yours.

I am not a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Rastafarian, etc. I have a personal faith constructed through years of seeing with my own eyes and feeling with my own heart.

To be honest, I appreciated undertherice's statements a LOT more than yours, simply because he did not say them in such a zero-minded, HOLIER-THAN-THOU manner. So you'll just have to excuse me if this reply sounded a bit harsh, my friend. I look forward to your input on other threads, because you do seem very affluent.


----------



## Reprogrammed (Jan 12, 2008)

undertheice said:


> isn't that the point of organized religion, to maintain the status quo? the very nature of religion precludes change. the word of god must be unchanging or god will be proved to have been mistaken and gods *cannot* make mistakes. any change in dogma takes decades because those changes must be cloaked in layer upon layer of misdirection or the faithful may catch on that their sacred texts are nothing more than the words of man.
> 
> don't be too concerned. only the powerful could ever even attempt to tear down what has taken centuries to erect and religion is far too useful a tool to be discarded without something equally insidious to take its place.
> 
> false hope and the illusion of comfort, these are the greatest tools ever developed to enslave the minds of men. while the masses toil, hoping to attain some otherworldly paradise, the powerful reap the rewards of their labor and laugh heartily at the gullibility of their unwitting slaves. while their children go cold and hungry, the faithful tithe willingly and warm themselves in the camaraderie of poverty and despair. such are the gifts of the god myth and its attendants.


1. You misunderstand my point. Yes, ORGANIZED religion has become warped and, in many cases, corrupt. You also betray the fact that you are only saying you understand the difference, because your words constantly stick them in the same boat. But religion itself carries across messages that cannot be ignored. You seem to only be pointing the finger at the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. Yes, the Bible and Torah contain many passages that are hate-filled snotrags, but in this day and age people have truly started to pick and choose what they follow. I have met homosexual Christians, just as I have seen gay-bashing ones. You cannot hold the masses accountable for the actions of others. And no, dogma isn't meant to be broken. But when it opens the window for people like the afformentioned ex-boyfriend, I can't say it isn't a good thing. It seems these days that many religions are changing quite a bit.

2. I'm not concerned, because the day that it happens, it will signal the 4th Reich's return. Only this time they will be holding calculators and telescopes, not rifles. I cannot think of a more frightening image than a world dominated by the religion of unqualified "logic".

3. Again, your stigma to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic figure shows. You also misunderstand that organized religion commits such heinous crimes, not religion. Simply because "logic" and "science" have not had blood spilled in their name YET, doesn't mean that it is not soon on the horizon. Logic is a varying thing, and Albert Einstein even recognized that science and religion fell from the same tree.
I also don't think it is up to you to delegate what is and what isn't "false hope", my friend. You do not know what awaits us. It could be the fires of Hell, Nirvana, or a dirt bed.


I will not respond further, simply because when it comes to a god, the afterlife or creation: our arguments will always be flawed by the shadow of not knowing.

So fellas, why don't we simply roll a joint of Cannabis, and have a good time?


----------



## closet.cult (Jan 12, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> Should we be tolerating religion when it is the cause of war and ignorance?
> 
> Religions dont tolerate each other or anyone outside them.
> 
> Why should we tolerate religion?


i posit a libertarian streak runs thru most people who accept the golden rule. if we dont want people to silence our veiwpoints (not to mention make them for us) then we must tolerate other's. 

tolerate does not mean agree or like something. it means we accept its right to exist. just as we would like others to accept our smoking rights to exist.

of course, if we accept and tolerate religion, it doesn't mean we have to honor it by asking the deep questions like 'who we are' and 'why we are here'. there is no proof that anyone has those answers 'just' because they are religious. actually the opposite is more likely because religion only makes your world smaller.


----------



## ViRedd (Jan 12, 2008)

Show me a person who doesn't believe in God, I'll show you a person who hasn't experienced enough pain.

Vi


----------



## Lacy (Jan 12, 2008)

*That is an awesome quote!!!! I love it!!!!!!!!*

*I am not the least bit religious but I have experienced GOD in a way that cannot be descibed in words. Nor would I ever want to decribe the experience that brought me there.  So please don't anyone start trippin' on me.*

*Tolerance is part of love. Intolerance breeds war and there are so many wars going on because of intolerance to anothers' religion. *


ViRedd said:


> Show me a person who doesn't believe in God, I'll show you a person who hasn't experienced enough pain.
> 
> Vi


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok ok I don't want to upset anyone. It's just a question. When I asked it, I was thinking back to the 9/11 attacks. Bush went on international tv and used the word "crusade". That was a blatent verbal attack on another religion. Not only a religion, but millions of people. I see what he believed to his core as serious bullshit. I dont think we should tolerate that sort of religious behaviour. Sometimes it can be complete bullshit. What he said made no sense. Terrorist's believe to their core that what they are doing is right. It's their religion. People don't tolerate that. They act against it.
Obviously we can't ban people from believing in something.
If you want to be religious, then be religious. Half my family is religious and I love them to pieces. 

When someone is as powerful as bush, they should at least be able to think before they speak. It's disturbing.

Instead of preaching or trying to change the world, why can't people lead by example rather. Jesus did.

I hope I have clarified my point a little better this time.

I haven't attacked anyone on a personal level here except bush, yet I have been called "zero minded and arrogant". It's a debate people.


----------



## FilthyFletch (Jan 13, 2008)

Religion shouldnt be tolerated but abolished.Religion and the beliefs of a god or higher being is the rule to all the worlds evil. Wars and murder are started on behalf of religion. Religion is for those who cant handle everyday life and need more to hold onto so they seem to have a purpose in life.If people would have faith in themselfs and do the simple things they think they do because of rreligion we would have such a great world.But the issue is a lot of people nee that imaginary belief to give them some hope they cant have for themselves as they lack that self motivation and enthusiam of life..Its a shame but maybe some day we can rid the world of all religion and the need for imaginary hopes.


----------



## FilthyFletch (Jan 13, 2008)

Oh and the quote on showing someone who doesnt believe in god and Ill show you someone who hasnt expirenced pain is complete garbage.If there was a god he would be the cause of the pain.I ve felt pain all my life physical and mental but it was me who made myself pickup and continue on.There was no merciful god who saved thse innocent lives taken and forced the pain of lose upon those persons loved ones.He didnt stop those stray bullets maybe he pulled the trigger??


----------



## iblazethatkush (Jan 13, 2008)

FilthyFletch said:


> Religion shouldnt be tolerated but abolished.Religion and the beliefs of a god or higher being is the rule to all the worlds evil. Wars and murder are started on behalf of religion. Religion is for those who cant handle everyday life and need more to hold onto so they seem to have a purpose in life.If people would have faith in themselfs and do the simple things they think they do because of rreligion we would have such a great world.But the issue is a lot of people nee that imaginary belief to give them some hope they cant have for themselves as they lack that self motivation and enthusiam of life..Its a shame but maybe some day we can rid the world of all religion and the need for imaginary hopes.


Whackjob^^^ How do you propose abolishing religion. Lock up all religious ppl or just execute them...70% of the world's population believes in God. I bet you don't talk like that in the real world


----------



## Lacy (Jan 13, 2008)

*Hey Blazeeeeeee man!!!!! How's it going???*
*Long time no see. I missed ya. *

*And Fletch. I'm sorry man BUT I am totally with blaze on this one. You're Way out to lunch here.*


iblazethatkush said:


> Whackjob^^^ How do you propose abolishing religion. Lock up all religious ppl or just execute them...70% of the world's population believes in God. I bet you don't talk like that in the real world


----------



## iblazethatkush (Jan 13, 2008)

Hey, Lacy.....I know, it's been too long. Glad to see ya back, tho. Hope your feeling OK and all.


----------



## Lacy (Jan 13, 2008)

*Yes I am feeling a LOT better thanks Blaze. *
*I'm off those strong meds and back moving around again. I had my right arm in a sling for about a week but now I'm good to go. *

*Hey i'm getting a 1000 watt MH light tomorrow.*

*Waaahooooooooooooooo! I'm a tad excited about it.*


iblazethatkush said:


> Hey, Lacy.....I know, it's been too long. Glad to see ya back, tho. Hope your feeling OK and all.


----------



## FilthyFletch (Jan 13, 2008)

I personally cant abolish religion but do hope it dies off or people start to realise its evil base.Id like to see it get lost in history I know it ll be hard but thats what I believe and iblaze that exactly how I am in public.Ima proud atheist and tell it to the world.Someone will say something about religion and god and Ill tell them how there isnt a god and how religion is evil.I dont need to believe in a methical being to make the best of life and to be able to live with myself some people do so they go to church and they take thier kids to church to be moletsed by gods coveyor of the word.Not me I prefer my kinds unmolested thank you


----------



## iblazethatkush (Jan 13, 2008)

Lacy said:


> *Yes I am feeling a LOT better thanks Blaze. *
> *I'm off those strong meds and back moving around again. I had my right arm in a sling for about a week but now I'm good to go. *
> 
> *Hey i'm getting a 1000 watt MH light tomorrow.*
> ...


Awesome!!! I'm excited for you! Getting a new light or strain of seeds is like opening a present on Christmas morning. It's a wonderful feeling...Talk to ya, later. I'm off to bed now


----------



## Lacy (Jan 13, 2008)

*Yes for sure it rocks.*

*Goodnight blaze. Sleep tight.*


iblazethatkush said:


> Awesome!!! I'm excited for you! Getting a new light or strain of seeds is like opening a present on Christmas morning. It's a wonderful feeling...Talk to ya, later. I'm off to bed now


----------



## iblazethatkush (Jan 13, 2008)

FilthyFletch said:


> I personally cant abolish religion but do hope it dies off or people start to realise its evil base.Id like to see it get lost in history I know it ll be hard but thats what I believe and iblaze that exactly how I am in public.Ima proud atheist and tell it to the world.Someone will say something about religion and god and Ill tell them how there isnt a god and how religion is evil.I dont need to believe in a methical being to make the best of life and to be able to live with myself some people do so they go to church and they take thier kids to church to be moletsed by gods coveyor of the word.Not me I prefer my kinds unmolested thank you


I can agree with you that religion can be evil, at times. But, honestly there would still be just as many wars, deaths and evil in the world without religion. That is just one of the many things people use to separate themselves from another group. If it wasn't religion it would be race, nationality, sexuality, etc...Until we realize that we are all God's children( We are all the same. We are all one people. We are one race, the human race. Every person on this earth is an equal) there will never be peace on earth.


----------



## FilthyFletch (Jan 13, 2008)

We are all human and earth beings tha should be enough.Im to the point where if we drop religion and start thinning the population or inbreds and stupid people we can make a difference.Some people are just to stupid to be on earth...ie the dumb shits who see the large flashing toll sign for Ipass and yet pull into it with cash then think they can back out with 30000 cars behind them..waste of space human


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 14, 2008)

iblazethatkush said:


> I can agree with you that religion can be evil, at times. But, honestly there would still be just as many wars, deaths and evil in the world without religion. That is just one of the many things people use to separate themselves from another group. If it wasn't religion it would be race, nationality, sexuality, etc...Until we realize that we are all God's children( We are all the same. We are all one people. We are one race, the human race. Every person on this earth is an equal) there will never be peace on earth.


 
You think logically in a religious way. It seems that you don't tolerate certain aspects of religion as well. 

I think this is what I am trying to get at. I think society should be less tolerant of the more radical aspects of religion.
In my country a certain group of nationwide churches decided to install ATM's in their churches. That to me is daylight robbery. How can people sell religion? I know a person who gives half their salary to their church every month. How can a church do that to people and have a clear conscience.
Oh and the priest in charge drives a BMW. lol.

People like this should not be tolerated. Yet because it's the 'word of god' it's tolerated.


----------



## Lacy (Jan 14, 2008)

*Yes all of what you are saying is relevant BUT you still can't take away peoples' rights to throw their money away just because that is the way you see it, I may see it or anyone else for that matter, sees it.*

*I am not the least bit religious and believe that religion itself causes more wars in this world than any other reason BUT people have 'free will' to do with their life and their money, as they choose.*

*iblaze does have an excellent point in that you can't start separating people and judging them for reasons such as religion, race, sex, nationality etc or you are being discriminating against a "certain" 'group' of individuals.*

*Intolerance just breeds hate. Tolerance doesn't mean 'they' are right and you have to agree with them.*
*It just means that you are allowing them their free will to choose as they wish and not choose for them.*

*Peace*


mountainSpliff said:


> You think logically in a religious way. It seems that you don't tolerate certain aspects of religion as well.
> 
> I think this is what I am trying to get at. I think society should be less tolerant of the more radical aspects of religion.
> In my country a certain group of nationwide churches decided to install ATM's in their churches. That to me is daylight robbery. How can people sell religion? I know a person who gives half their salary to their church every month. How can a church do that to people and have a clear conscience.
> ...


----------



## InvaderMark (Jan 14, 2008)

i have to totally agree with your last statement Spliff, that seems just wrong.

but i must applaud to Lacy. that all just seems right to me.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 14, 2008)

Lacy said:


> *Yes all of what you are saying is relevant BUT you still can't take away peoples' rights to throw their money away just because that is the way you see it, I may see it or anyone else for that matter, sees it.*
> 
> *I am not the least bit religious and believe that religion itself causes more wars in this world than any other reason BUT people have 'free will' to do with their life and their money, as they choose.*
> 
> ...


I know what your saying. I don't think people should ever have any rights taken away. but

What's happens when someones 'free will' affects someone else in a negative way?

In South Africa, 'apartheid' was the free will of the white government. Black people decided not to tolerate it. Where as most white people were very tolerant of apartheid.

Even free will has to be policed. A radical example would be to release 100 prisoners and tell them to enjoy free will. It would be messy...

All I am saying is sometimes things need to be reviewed. Another example is that gay marriage has only recently been legalised in some countries.
Why was gay marriage illegal? Because religion says it is bad.

*Society is already becoming less tolerant of religion.*

*Whether you like it or not and whether I like it or not,*
*people are moving forward.*


----------



## Jointsmith (Jan 14, 2008)

I have met various fanatics of various religions as well as fanatic Atheists and both ends of the spectrum are as bad as each other.

Whatever people believe, they need to be able to question those beliefs (ie. Acknowledge that they might be wrong) to be able to be well rounded people, this would make most well rounded people Agnostic by definition.

However, I believe, dispite what has been said on this thread, organised religion does a lot of good around the world, and even though, as a concept, it has been abused time and time again, I would never judge someone for believing in ANY of the world religions.....only for not questioning those beliefs.

Everyone needs a Crutch afterall.......Mine is this lovely fat spliff.....what's yours?


----------



## pheonagirl (Jan 14, 2008)

agrees with jointsmith and would like to add that religion needs to be much more personal and much much less political to be effective (no matter what religion it may be)


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 14, 2008)

Jointsmith said:


> I have met various fanatics of various religions as well as fanatic Atheists and both ends of the spectrum are as bad as each other.
> 
> Whatever people believe, they need to be able to question those beliefs (ie. Acknowledge that they might be wrong) to be able to be well rounded people, this would make most well rounded people Agnostic by definition.
> 
> ...


Nice point on the agnostic thing. Nobody knows whats out there and if they claim they do know, there is no way to know if that person is true, crazy or manipulative. 

You can however judge whether something affects people negatively or positively.


----------



## Endoe (Jan 14, 2008)

Politics and religion are my 2 least favorite subjects to discuss but I feel like I have something to contribute here.

First of all I am a Christian and am proud of it. That being said I don't go to church because of the propaganda aspect of it. Jesus did lots of things for me so he will do lots of things for you too if and only if you believe the way he wants you to. I don't buy that shit at all. The one thing I don't like the most about "organised religion" is evangilism. For those that don't know, this is the belief that is someone is not a christian I am supposed to sit down and talk them into becoming a christian. You know the whole "repent and you shall be saved" bit. Well fuck that. If you don't believe the way I do then it is not my concern. But what some of you atheists are doing is the same thing. You think that I am wrong and you are right. I don't know if I am right or wrong. But neither do you. Consiquently if you don't like me preaching to you then don't preach to me about how you don't believe. And that is preaching it is just in the opposite of what most people think.

Also I think it would a very bad thing to abolish religion. Alot of people fell happier when they believe in somehting. Abolishing religion would only take away something that makes them happy. Whether you believe it or not. You cannot take something away from anyone that makes them happy.


----------



## closet.cult (Jan 16, 2008)

ViRedd said:


> Show me a person who doesn't believe in God, I'll show you a person who hasn't experienced enough pain.
> 
> Vi


bullshit. utter, profound, brainwashed rhetorical bullshit. god IS the pain this whole planet has experienced.

my family and friend's eronious claims to special knowledge about god and his will was the source of my pain for many years and will continue to be.

i HAVE to be wrong, and i'm going to die in armageddon: they all just KNOW that they're right.  brainwashed sheep, the believers are. and any of you are also if you think that another person can tell you about god. your parents, your pastor and your church don't have any special knowledge about god, people. another human being told them what they know, and a human told that person, and so on. we're never going to wake and learn something if we just believe what people other say without demanding proof.

the god 'delusion' is the root of many, if not most, of the evils on this planet.


----------



## mastakoosh (Jan 16, 2008)

Reprogrammed said:


> I've met plenty of Atheists who are pretty fucking ignorant.
> 
> It's not religion's fault that a lot of people misinterpret the messages or apply outdated ones to this day and age. There are also a lot of religious teachings that tell people to leave others alone who aren't of the faith. For God's sake, Gautama Buddha even said do not listen to him unless what he says matches up to your own common sense.
> 
> ...


 well put.


----------



## Schmidty (Jan 17, 2008)

I'll be honest that I did not spend an hour reading through everyone's post. Flame away...

I just want to say that in my honest opinion, I dont think that its religion itself that's bad or negative. I think its the fact that governments and bodies of power have abused the general system of beliefs for so long that religion in general has an association with negative things when you're a non-religious person looking in. 

I think the word religion needs to be clearly defined before you start asking people whether they should tolerate it or not. I for one am not what the general public would call religious, in any way shape or form. However, I do have a system of beliefs. Morals, ethics, boundaries that I live my life by. I believe that there is a conscious afterlife, though I dont necessarily believe in a God or Gods. The list goes on, and I'll bet that out there somewhere is a classification that someone could toss me into, saying that what I believe in is actively practiced somewhere as a religion. 

This is a hard statement to make: I personally do not believe that the Churches or any representative of any religious movement should have anything to do with government. In my mind, the churches in the US (I dont know enough about Europe and elsewhere) are an extremely influential aspect of the government, and I can only hope that one day we have a president or governing body that does not have to swear to God on their patriotism. That right there is where war comes from. 

The world will either need to come to terms with the fact that every living human being lives by different boundaries and morals than any other. En mass, there may be major similarities, but when it comes down to details my beliefs vary greatly from the three other men sitting in this room right now. If that simple truth cannot be understood then war will rage on in the name of some God until someone gets jumpy enough to launch that first missile.


----------



## starchland (Jan 17, 2008)

If we dont tolerate religion then were being just as hypocritical as them


----------



## budforever442200 (Jan 24, 2008)

Blessed Love And Greetings My Lord,ancient From Africa With Grace And Glory.give Thanks For The Most High Creator Our Lord God And King Of Isreal Ethiopia Selassie I Jah Ras Tafari.i Am Very Proud Of Your Work And Your Journey Is Iternal With Ras Tafari My Lord , Nuff Up Liftment Here At (dread Ites)praises To Our Comforter Who Is The Way The Truth And The Light,for Everyone Who Cometh Into This World Cometh With This Light Of The Black Christ Of Zion Holy Emanuel I Selassie I Jah Ras Tafari.itinue In The Works Of Righteousness That Would Correct A Nation That Did Err From The Commandments Of God And So They Became Filthy.honorable Prophet Ikimba Gumbs A.k.a.(dread Ites)go And Tell The Nations That They Must Love Abbaba Joni And Hold On To Love.negus Bids Us Shine With A Clear Pure Light In This World Of Darknesss.honorable Prophet My Lord From Dem Times Til Now Am Still A Big Fan Of Your Work,so Just Gwarn Blaze Up De Fire My Lord Some Will Purge And Some Will Burn Up King Emanuel I The Seventh Adoni I God Jah Ras Tafari Man A Chant For Freedom Redemption And International Repartriation Of All To Their Own Vine And Fig Tree Esspecially We Thee Ethiopian Abbasynians From The Land Called Holy Mt.zion.for We The Saints Adore H.i.m. And Glorify H.i.m. And Honor H.i.m. Adoni I God Jah Ras Tafari Sanctify And Bless My Lord Love Love.until We Meet At Negus Feet In Love And Peace,all Good Things Comes From Zion And Angels Travelling By The Way Side Are Seeking Souls To Save For Our God And King Selassie I Jah Ras Tafari Sanctify And Bless My Lord, John Marcus I Love.


----------



## natmoon (Jan 24, 2008)

Seems to me like nutters use religion as an excuse to gain wealth and power.
Who would Jesus bomb?


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 25, 2008)

natmoon said:


> Seems to me like nutters use religion as an excuse to gain wealth and power.
> Who would Jesus bomb?


Too true. However, people also abuse every other thing that is possible to abuse. Human nature I guess. 

Sure, we have to tolerate religion. However some religions are just so full of bullshit. Bullshit that seriously fucks peoples lives up.


----------



## natmoon (Jan 25, 2008)

This is my whole point.
A genuine religion does not segregate or discriminate.

What did Jesus say?
What did Jesus do?
What did men write?
Why did men say that?
Why was Jesus's only actual contribution to the bible in Aramaic removed from the bible by the Vatican and classed as blasphemy even though he wrote it himself in Aramaic?
Do you know what it said?
Why did they change the recipe for holy anointing oil to use a poisonous cancer causing plant instead of cannabis?
Who really wrote the bibles of the world?

Jesus said none of this.
Forgive,help and love each other.
This is the only real religion.
All the rest are just power plays written by men and kings to control you and are basically evil.
Work it out for yourselves


----------



## ventricle01 (Jan 28, 2008)

I am the first person to not *Trust* religions due to the corruption from whithin it, but from what i've been reading on this forum the general concises seems to be that religion is the worst thing and other peoples beliefs should be disregarded. we must always remember a saying that still rings true to this day, "If you dont believe in something you will definitely fall for anything". As much as this quote can be debated we all have to understand that no matter how we slice it there must be a *higher* being, and that is what most if not all religions are preaching.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 28, 2008)

ventricle01 said:


> I am the first person to not *Trust* religions due to the corruption from whithin it, but from what i've been reading on this forum the general concises seems to be that religion is the worst thing and other peoples beliefs should be disregarded. we must always remember a saying that still rings true to this day, "If you dont believe in something you will definitely fall for anything". As much as this quote can be debated we all have to understand that no matter how we slice it there must be a *higher* being, and that is what most if not all religions are preaching.


How can you claim there is a higher being when you have no real way of knowing for sure?  You're still just going on what people have told you.
As for your saying, "If you dont believe in something you will definitely fall for anything", that rings true for the majority of the people on this planet unfortunatly. It's a pity people can't believe in themselves.


----------



## Schmidty (Jan 29, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> How can you claim there is a higher being when you have no real way of knowing for sure? You're still just going on what people have told you.
> As for your saying, "If you dont believe in something you will definitely fall for anything", that rings true for the majority of the people on this planet unfortunatly. It's a pity people can't believe in themselves.


I agree... How can you claim that there's a higher being? What does this higher being do? What has it done? What will it do? These are all questions that no one can answer at this point. 

The fact that you're stating there must be a higher being just solidifies any barriers you have around your mind. Drop the certainties, and join the rest of the club in the real world where the rest of us dont really know what's going to happen when we die, or whether something is out there pulling strings.


----------



## natmoon (Jan 29, 2008)

When i realized that life the universe and everything was actually impossible is when i understood that there must be some kind of creator.

What will happen when we die or whether he has time for us is beyond me.
I choose to believe in Jesus's own writings and i ignore the rest of the bible as i know that many men have tampered with it and ruined it over the centuries.

Even if there is no anything and a scientist says he has proof of nothing existing i am still going to _choose_ to live my life as a stoned person who is practicing healing and learning to open my mind.
I think you'll find thats all Jesus really said anyway


----------



## ventricle01 (Jan 29, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> How can you claim there is a higher being when you have no real way of knowing for sure? You're still just going on what people have told you.
> As for your saying, "If you dont believe in something you will definitely fall for anything", that rings true for the majority of the people on this planet unfortunatly. It's a pity people can't believe in themselves.


Well although there may not be a "document" (i.e religious texts, or scientific document) that proves to your understanding that there is a higher being. My belief in a Higher being alone acknowledges that i have an Open Mind. FYI most of the world does believe in a Higher being, although the rest of us may not know when we die....I dont think anyone does in my opinion Higher being or not! I dont believe in someone pulling strings because i have a firm belief in each person controlling their own destinies.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 30, 2008)

ventricle01 said:


> Well although there may not be a "document" (i.e religious texts, or scientific document) that proves to your understanding that there is a higher being. My belief in a Higher being alone acknowledges that i have an Open Mind. FYI most of the world does believe in a Higher being, although the rest of us may not know when we die....I dont think anyone does in my opinion Higher being or not! I dont believe in someone pulling strings because i have a firm belief in each person controlling their own destinies.


Cool, as long as you are in control of your own life. Here is an interesting question for ya. Most people believe in a higher being right? What percentage of the worlds population are truly intelligent? The last time I checked, it wasn't a very high percentage. Coincidence or relevant?

*Is it more logical to be a Christian? Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious.*

*Quoted from : Intelligence & Religion*

*These tests spanned 100 years.*
​


----------



## natmoon (Jan 30, 2008)

Last time i checked i had a high IQ.
Maybe i now have a low IQ from believing in Jesus.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Jan 30, 2008)

It's not a certainty. Just an interesting finding.


----------



## ScarletteSky (Jan 30, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> Should we be tolerating religion when it is the cause of war and ignorance?
> 
> Religions dont tolerate each other or anyone outside them.
> 
> Why should we tolerate religion?


Why not tolerate religion? I mean I tolerate non-religion.......so why not vice versa?


----------



## mountainSpliff (Feb 1, 2008)

Be careful of the people who preach beLIEf.


----------



## natmoon (Feb 1, 2008)

I just want people to know that what Jesus actually said and did and whats written in the bible may well be 2 different things.
They can read the lost Aramaic texts for themselves online.

I am not a bible basher and i do not wish to force my religion onto anyone.
I truly believe that a man must walk his own path until he finds what hes looking for and learns what he needs to.
How many lives this takes is really up to him or her


----------



## Reprogrammed (Feb 3, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> Ok ok I don't want to upset anyone. It's just a question. When I asked it, I was thinking back to the 9/11 attacks. Bush went on international tv and used the word "crusade". That was a blatent verbal attack on another religion. Not only a religion, but millions of people. I see what he believed to his core as serious bullshit. I dont think we should tolerate that sort of religious behaviour. Sometimes it can be complete bullshit. What he said made no sense. Terrorist's believe to their core that what they are doing is right. It's their religion. People don't tolerate that. They act against it.





mountainSpliff said:


> Obviously we can't ban people from believing in something.
> If you want to be religious, then be religious. Half my family is religious and I love them to pieces.


Again, it's not their religion. The Qur&#8217;An is a beautiful work of inspirational poetry at the very least, and it is groups such as Al Qaeda and the various sects of Islam that distort it. And President Bush is a follower of a twisted organized religion, as well. 
The reason I say that people don&#8217;t really kill SIMPLY for their RELIGION in this day and age is because most people understand that murder in the name of millennia old documents is wrong. And if they don&#8217;t, then they were going to kill someone sooner or later anyway, no matter the creed to accompany it. It's when they rally behind the words of humans, and not their deities, that bad things occur.
Organized religion. Not religion. That&#8217;s my point. Always has been.

And I don't believe I have the typing endurance to fully enunciate how much I loathed your point on intelligence vs. religion. Suffice to say that in regards to anyone judging anyone's intelligence in such a brazen and arrogant way, my stomach turns.




mountainSpliff said:


> When someone is as powerful as bush, they should at least be able to think before they speak. It's disturbing.


I&#8217;m glad we can agree on something, J.




mountainSpliff said:


> Instead of preaching or trying to change the world, why can't people lead by example rather. Jesus did.


Christ WAS a preacher. That&#8217;s what all of his travelling and words were. The sermon on the mountain, his conversations with the Apostles, etc.





mountainSpliff said:


> I hope I have clarified my point a little better this time.





mountainSpliff said:


> I haven't attacked anyone on a personal level here except bush, yet I have been called "zero minded and arrogant". It's a debate people.


I apologize for going off on you a bit, mate. But then again, no one would say, "No matter how deep seated a man's bullshit is, it's still bullshit," in a proper debate. Come to think of it, I'm quite sure I complimented you in my post.
Also, you didn&#8217;t simply attack Bush. Look back at your previous words BEFORE you &#8220;clarified&#8221; your point. Those are what I addressed, back when it was the only thing to address.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Feb 3, 2008)

The Analogy of the Cave applies to all dogma, not just religion. The first amendment guarantees us the right to worship, or not worship, in our own fashion. For me it stops right there. One cannot legislate morals. The root of prohibition is one group imposing its moral code on everyone else.


----------



## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

Johnnyorganic said:


> The Analogy of the Cave applies to all dogma, not just religion. The first amendment guarantees us the right to worship, or not worship, in our own fashion. For me it stops right there. One cannot legislate morals. The root of prohibition is one group imposing its moral code on everyone else.


Exactly.
Jesus never said we should force anyone to do anything.
Only people have done and said this


----------



## mountainSpliff (Feb 4, 2008)

Reprogrammed said:


> Again, it's not their religion. The QurAn is a beautiful work of inspirational poetry at the very least, and it is groups such as Al Qaeda and the various sects of Islam that distort it.
> 
> And I don't believe I have the typing endurance to fully enunciate how much I loathed your point on intelligence vs. religion. Suffice to say that in regards to anyone judging anyone's intelligence in such a brazen and arrogant way, my stomach turns.
> 
> ...


I apologise for not being more clear in my first post's but then again I am not powerful or even that intelligent. I can afford to make mistakes.

I never claimed anything against a particular religion. It seems most religions have the 'organised' aspect going on. As for the pic, it was the first pic I came across.

The intelligence point is a documented study by many differant people over a long period of time. No one is judging anyone. They were studies and the conclusions were the results.

Apology accepted. I do understand that this a controversial subject.
My intentions are nothing more than learning more about life. It's people like you that I learn the most from. 

Almost every nation in Europe had laws based on religion. This is not the case anymore as society has become less tolerant of religion.
Society in general is today far more intelligent than it was 100 years ago.
It's definately a relevant point.


----------



## mastakoosh (Feb 4, 2008)

we should not tolerate it 
















we should embrace it.


----------



## Live2Die420 (Feb 6, 2008)

I don't believe in religion. I think it's a way for people to explain stuff they don't know in a fantasy sort of way. Its ridiculous for someone to tell me "love everyone thats what jesus did" And then ten seconds later that person is speeding down the road. To me if your speeding there you little religious freak it means ur not loving everyone because you could potentionally kill someone. Or even driving for that matter. You driving ur little religious truck pollutes the air I breath, you're not loving me i guess, do I give a shit no.

I used to work with one of these mother fuckers. He was my cousins business partner and my second boss..

He would always say, you need to find god, your going down the wrong path, weed is wrong, and blah blah blah until I would tell him just to fucking shut up.

Now this same man, had kids when he was 16, and obviously hasn't read the bible since they mention weed multiple times. 

I would say stuff to him like. Excuse me man but you can't even run a successful business or put food on your table for your kids that you had when you were 16 and your telling me what to do? Get off my nutz man. lol


----------



## Wigmo (Feb 6, 2008)

how can you blame religion for all the evils of the world. yes, just like anything else religion can be used by greedy and foolish men, to exploit others. but relgion is not the cause of this evil it is merely a vehicle like anything else. mountain spliff you must look a bit deeper, in this issue. and look at the real cause of these evils. which is intolerance. the same thing that you now preach.


----------



## CaliGurl (Feb 6, 2008)

*I will try to stay Swiss on this answer and this is what I think. Radicals and those who EXPLOIT religion for their own selfish benifets are the ones who give religion a bad name. If you look at the basic principles of 95% of the religions out there they are decent things, treat others well dont steal dont lie ect.. these are good basic morals that people should adbide by anyways. Religion has given many people hope, new beginnings and soemthing to believe in during rough times that helps them through it. Now there are tons of things that people exploit for their own selfish purposes Religion Unfortunately is just another victim of human nature. I think if we start to censor or banned things like this then we are taking away not just the constitution but our rights as a person, our right of free will choice and free thought. this is somethign that NO MAN has a right to take away from another. Wigmo said it best. What I believe we SHOULD NOT TOLERATE is those who are radicals harming others, those who exploit it for their own selfish purposes, those are the things we should not tolerate. live2die420 I think you can point out wrongs of everyone, that is human nature, we are not perfect, but we are to strive for perfection. and at the same time forgiveness is key, regardless of religion or not that needs to be learned. Everyone makes mistakes, its only a problem when you make the same ones over and over and dont learn or correct them and dont care too. I am religious and I will say it no problem but I am not going to point a finger at someone and point out their wrongs, i would rather set an example through my actions of life. the way I view weed is God made the earth it was here and i will use it but at the same time I will be productive to society and use it with good judgement, free will is ours and we must be responsible. I will nto sit on my couch day after day after day getting high not only is that not bettering myself but I contribute nothing to society and if everyone did that or even half or the society did that we could not properly fucntion as a civilization. *


*I will believe what I believe and will stand up and not deny what I believe, to deny is to not believe, I will be open minded to Ideas and your beliefs but I will stand by my beliefs, at the same time I will respect others just as I was taught and raise and I will respect your beliefs, I will not put you down or tell you, you are wrong, but I do believe I am right. *


----------



## mountainSpliff (Feb 7, 2008)

Wigmo said:


> how can you blame religion for all the evils of the world. yes, just like anything else religion can be used by greedy and foolish men, to exploit others. but relgion is not the cause of this evil it is merely a vehicle like anything else. mountain spliff you must look a bit deeper, in this issue. and look at the real cause of these evils. which is intolerance. the same thing that you now preach.


 
I guess you didn't read the whole thread? If you did, you would have realised that I am not preaching but merely debating. 

Maybe you should look deeper...


----------



## psyclone (Feb 7, 2008)

"I despise what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it". Discuss.


----------



## Esso (Feb 7, 2008)

In a time long ago, when most had no education etc, religions were the very glue of society. They gave us a moral code, and in many cases even our written laws, most of which still stand today. 

Do we still need them? Well i dont. Obsolete. Today, instead of taking us forward as a race, religions are dragging us backwards to live again in the darkage. Turn ya lights on and wake up.


----------



## smokingbot (Feb 7, 2008)

let me think about it... no... fuck organized religion... fuck religion in general.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Feb 7, 2008)

CaliGurl said:


> *I will try to stay Swiss on this answer and this is what I think. Radicals and those who EXPLOIT religion for their own selfish benifets are the ones who give religion a bad name. If you look at the basic principles of 95% of the religions out there they are decent things, treat others well dont steal dont lie ect.. these are good basic morals that people should adbide by anyways. Religion has given many people hope, new beginnings and soemthing to believe in during rough times that helps them through it. Now there are tons of things that people exploit for their own selfish purposes Religion Unfortunately is just another victim of human nature. I think if we start to censor or banned things like this then we are taking away not just the constitution but our rights as a person, our right of free will choice and free thought. this is somethign that NO MAN has a right to take away from another. Wigmo said it best. What I believe we SHOULD NOT TOLERATE is those who are radicals harming others, those who exploit it for their own selfish purposes, those are the things we should not tolerate. live2die420 I think you can point out wrongs of everyone, that is human nature, we are not perfect, but we are to strive for perfection. and at the same time forgiveness is key, regardless of religion or not that needs to be learned. Everyone makes mistakes, its only a problem when you make the same ones over and over and dont learn or correct them and dont care too. I am religious and I will say it no problem but I am not going to point a finger at someone and point out their wrongs, i would rather set an example through my actions of life. the way I view weed is God made the earth it was here and i will use it but at the same time I will be productive to society and use it with good judgement, free will is ours and we must be responsible. I will nto sit on my couch day after day after day getting high not only is that not bettering myself but I contribute nothing to society and if everyone did that or even half or the society did that we could not properly fucntion as a civilization. *
> 
> 
> *I will believe what I believe and will stand up and not deny what I believe, to deny is to not believe, I will be open minded to Ideas and your beliefs but I will stand by my beliefs, at the same time I will respect others just as I was taught and raise and I will respect your beliefs, I will not put you down or tell you, you are wrong, but I do believe I am right. *


The 95% of religions you speak of maybe cover 5% of the worlds population. Also all religions have faults. As does just about everything on earth. It's natural to have faults.

I am glad that you are open to ideas and that you can respect other's opinions. Just by being 'swiss' tells me that you don't tolerate aspects of your religion. You at some point in your life asked questions, passed judgement and progressed. There have been a good few people who got angry about my opinions. I see that as being hypocritical.

Certain religious aspects have negative influence on peoples lives. This is a very broad spectrum. 

Whether you like it or not, society has been becoming less tolerant of religion for a long time now. Most of Europe's countries had laws based on religion. Not the case any more. Why is that? It was illegal for gay people to get married in most parts of the world because of religion. This is changing. Why is that? Women were regarded lesser than man. This has changed, but still happens all over the world. 

Do you tolerate the abuse of women? If not, then how can you tolerate a religion that does?

It would be stupid to tell people what they have to believe and even more stupid to allow someone to suffer because of anothers selfish beliefs.

To all those who have gotten angry with my comments, I am merely exposing my opinions to the scrutiny of others so that I might learn something. One of the things I have learnt here is that quite a few people are grossly intolerant of other peoples opinions without trying to understand them first. However, it is encouraging to see that there are actually quite a few people out there who are also continuously asking questions. 

Inevitably the more questions people ask the more they progress in life.
If you don't understand this then why not at least try?


----------



## CaliGurl (Feb 7, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> The 95% of religions you speak of maybe cover 5% of the worlds population. Also all religions have faults. As does just about everything on earth. It's natural to have faults.
> 
> I am glad that you are open to ideas and that you can respect other's opinions. Just by being 'swiss' tells me that you don't tolerate aspects of your religion. You at some point in your life asked questions, passed judgement and progressed. There have been a good few people who got angry about my opinions. I see that as being hypocritical.
> 
> ...


 
*Well to be blunt and to bring up my personal beliefs no my religion sees everyone equally, men and women, women are not below men nor the opposite. I try to be nuetral as far as my opinion goes pertaining to the question not to my personal belief however. Now referencing back to my original point yes it is absolutely ridiculous and of no ones right to take away the free will and free belief and thought of another but yes at the same time I also said that religion is used basically as a tool for some people and some radical groups for there own selfish wants and benefits again I stated this should not be tolerated, but religion its self the basic beliefs of something should not be taken away from someone, in my opinion if your "religion" is one that harms another person or may cause damage to someone else then this is not a true religion this is some off the wall radicalist that believe they are above others and man set laws, like I said before is not the basis of most religions. buddism, christianity, judaism and even muslims ect... (these are just common ones I can think of) all have basic principles of the golden rule and have good moral principals. I haev had the opportunity to study religion abroad and have found that even though these religions (mentioned above) all have those good basic moral principals you still come across those radicalist and self benefitign self proclaimed religious freaks, that may not be politically correct but that is what it is. Now with that being said, I am not saying religion is perfect as youmust remember it is another person interpretation of what they believe has been God ordane (god being a general reference to the higher being in any religion) but what i see again as the main issue with religion is the Exploitation of it by the wrong people ( meaning those radicals or self benfiting) lets take the great reveren jackson he exploits beyond belief or you can also look at the radical muslims that are really just terrorist usign the muslim religion as an escape goat to condon their inhumane actions. or howabout the jahova witnesses that knock on your door at 6am on sunday to hand out pamphlets ok so there are people in all walks of life and religion that give their religion a bad name from the most extreme to the minute. The point being that no matter what issue we are discussing, religion, racism ect.. there will always be issues/tension and it comes from with in the poeple involved. When you have soemthing so monumental as religion that is captivaty to a majority then you will always have those people out there who are looking to make a quick buck or use it for their own agenda. With that said I think we should not take a belief away from someone rather try to weed out the garbage. But those who will not tolerate it are just as bad as the radicals and self benefiting as they are feeding fuel to the fire.*

*and here I thought this was just a ganja forum  glad we can all discuss topics diplomatically.*


----------



## CaliGurl (Feb 7, 2008)

mountainSpliff said:


> The 95% of religions you speak of maybe cover 5% of the worlds population. Also all religions have faults. As does just about everything on earth. It's natural to have faults.
> 
> I am glad that you are open to ideas and that you can respect other's opinions. Just by being 'swiss' tells me that you don't tolerate aspects of your religion. You at some point in your life asked questions, passed judgement and progressed. There have been a good few people who got angry about my opinions. I see that as being hypocritical.
> 
> ...


 
*Well to be blunt and to bring up my personal beliefs no my religion sees everyone equally, men and women, women are not below men nor the opposite. I try to be nuetral as far as my opinion goes pertaining to the question not to my personal belief however. Now referencing back to my original point yes it is absolutely ridiculous and of no ones right to take away the free will and free belief and thought of another but yes at the same time I also said that religion is used basically as a tool for some people and some radical groups for there own selfish wants and benefits again I stated this should not be tolerated, but religion its self the basic beliefs of something should not be taken away from someone, in my opinion if your "religion" is one that harms another person or may cause damage to someone else then this is not a true religion this is some off the wall radicalist that believe they are above others and man set laws, like I said before is not the basis of most religions. buddism, christianity, judaism and even muslims ect... (these are just common ones I can think of) all have basic principles of the golden rule and have good moral principals. I haev had the opportunity to study religion abroad and have found that even though these religions (mentioned above) all have those good basic moral principals you still come across those radicalist and self benefitign self proclaimed religious freaks, that may not be politically correct but that is what it is. Now with that being said, I am not saying religion is perfect as youmust remember it is another person interpretation of what they believe has been God ordane (god being a general reference to the higher being in any religion) but what i see again as the main issue with religion is the Exploitation of it by the wrong people ( meaning those radicals or self benfiting) lets take the great reveren jackson he exploits beyond belief or you can also look at the radical muslims that are really just terrorist usign the muslim religion as an escape goat to condon their inhumane actions. or howabout the jahova witnesses that knock on your door at 6am on sunday to hand out pamphlets ok so there are people in all walks of life and religion that give their religion a bad name from the most extreme to the minute. The point being that no matter what issue we are discussing, religion, racism ect.. there will always be issues/tension and it comes from with in the poeple involved. When you have soemthing so monumental as religion that is captivaty to a majority then you will always have those people out there who are looking to make a quick buck or use it for their own agenda. With that said I think we should not take a belief away from someone rather try to weed out the garbage. But those who will not tolerate it are just as bad as the radicals and self benefiting as they are feeding fuel to the fire.*

*and here I thought this was just a ganja forum  glad we can all discuss topics diplomatically.*


----------



## PoseidonsNet (Feb 7, 2008)

All the greatest scientist have been Christians. The exception is (possibly) Einstein, who had to flee to Christian America. 

The essence of Christianity, is not just love, but also its inverse : that jealousy is the worst sin. John The Baptist was beheaded for speaking his mind, and being a popular helpful guy. The problem with religion is not that it is organised, but that it is not organised enough. Can disorganised religion be better? Not at all.

I used to be sceptical of the idea that Ganja is the tree of life, despite adhering to the 10 commandments and puffing. Then I actually read the Bible 4 times. Now my faith and my rationality are in total agreement with one another. 

Read The Book with an open critical mind. You cannot be against all religion if you have not studied them all carefully


----------



## CaliGurl (Feb 7, 2008)

PoseidonsNet said:


> All the greatest scientist have been Christians. The exception is (possibly) Einstein, who had to flee to Christian America.
> 
> The essence of Christianity, is not just love, but also its inverse : that jealousy is the worst sin. John The Baptist was beheaded for speaking his mind, and being a popular helpful guy. The problem with religion is not that it is organised, but that it is not organised enough. Can disorganised religion be better? Not at all.
> 
> ...


 
Nicely put.


----------



## mountainSpliff (Feb 8, 2008)

'*rather try to weed out the garbage'*
This is what I am trying to get at. 


*'and here I thought this was just a ganja forum  glad we can all discuss topics diplomatically.'*

I love you and your avatar!!


----------



## mountainSpliff (Feb 8, 2008)

PoseidonsNet said:


> All the greatest scientist have been Christians. The exception is (possibly) Einstein, who had to flee to Christian America.
> 
> The essence of Christianity, is not just love, but also its inverse : that jealousy is the worst sin. John The Baptist was beheaded for speaking his mind, and being a popular helpful guy. The problem with religion is not that it is organised, but that it is not organised enough. Can disorganised religion be better? Not at all.
> 
> ...


This is the power of religion. It can rock your world right down to the core of your soul. Certainly one of the most powerful tools ever conceived. An incredibly deep beautiful maze developed for the mind. It's the good aspects and promises of religion that are used to con people into tolerating the bad aspects of religion.


----------



## guy incognito (Dec 9, 2010)

I thought I would need waders for this thread, turns out I needed a full decon suit for all the bullshit. 

No I don't think religion should be tolerated. It needs to be stamped out the same way we would stamp out ignorance and illogical thinking in other areas. If people believed the world to be flat, should that belief be tolerated? You can believe it if you want, in the privacy of your own home, but teaching it to other people and basing ANY decision about politics, legislation, education, or anything else that affects other people should NOT be tolerated under any circumstances. The same should go for religion.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Dec 9, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> I thought I would need waders for this thread, turns out I needed a full decon suit for all the bullshit.
> 
> No I don't think religion should be tolerated. It needs to be stamped out the same way we would stamp out ignorance and illogical thinking in other areas. If people believed the world to be flat, should that belief be tolerated? You can believe it if you want, in the privacy of your own home, but teaching it to other people and basing ANY decision about politics, legislation, education, or anything else that affects other people should NOT be tolerated under any circumstances. The same should go for religion.


I am not willing to *shred* the Constitution just so you don't feel oppressed when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas.

By the way, Flat Earth theory was never stamped out.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

They even sell tee shirts.

Do they affect me in the least? Not really. I laugh at them and I might just buy a tee shirt to wear for laughs. But other than that, the Flat Earthers are a non-factor as far as I am concerned.

So let the Christians have their zombie savior. And let Moe's followers have their pedophile prophet. The Buddists are welcome to their happy, chubby, nekkid guy. The Jews have Moses, among others I suppose. Anyway, you get the idea.

No one forces you to attend worship services. And it's been a decade or two since I was subjected to the public schools, but I'm pretty sure compulsory religious activities are unlawful.

So relax.


----------



## guy incognito (Dec 10, 2010)

Johnnyorganic said:


> I am not willing to *shred* the Constitution just so you don't feel oppressed when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas.
> 
> By the way, Flat Earth theory was never stamped out.
> 
> ...


I never said I was offended nor that I had to attend worship services for anyone. The flat earth society has no influence because they are so small and the vast majority of people know it's bullshit. If they were to attempt to get schools to teach the flat earth theory they would be ridiculed and rejected AS THEY SHOULD BE. 

I am not saying we should round up and torture anyone believing in god. I just think we should not tolerate ANY irrational belief system that is going to affect our lives. 

If you told me you believed in unicorns, yet had zero evidence, I would think you were absolutely crazy - but it's your right to believe whatever you want no matter how insane it is. If you told me your unicorn said being gay is wrong and you want to enact legislation denying gay people certain rights you would be dismissed as delusional and no one would take you seriously. 

Replace unicorn with god and it is just as ridiculous, except their delusions are often tolerated.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Dec 10, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> I never said I was offended nor that I had to attend worship services for anyone. The flat earth society has no influence because they are so small and the vast majority of people know it's bullshit. If they were to attempt to get schools to teach the flat earth theory they would be ridiculed and rejected AS THEY SHOULD BE.
> 
> I am not saying we should round up and torture anyone believing in god. I just think we should not tolerate ANY irrational belief system that is going to affect our lives.


Just what do you mean by 'not tolerate?' Because in your previous post you said they should be *stamped out*, which has rather sinister connotations.

And just who would determine what is irrational and not to be tolerated? 

*Man made climate change* is a perfect example.

Who decides which side is irrational and should be stamped out? The side that says it's a hoax, or the side that wants to cap carbon emissions and trade carbon credits?



guy incognito said:


> If you told me you believed in unicorns, yet had zero evidence, I would think you were absolutely crazy - but it's your right to believe whatever you want no matter how insane it is. If you told me your unicorn said being gay is wrong and you want to enact legislation denying gay people certain rights you would be dismissed as delusional and no one would take you seriously.
> 
> Replace unicorn with god and it is just as ridiculous, except their delusions are often tolerated.


I would really like to know who you feel would be qualified to determine what is to be tolerated and what is to be stamped out. Elected officials? No thanks. I can judge these things for *myself* and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't scare me one bit.

Intolerance is never a good thing. And in a free society one must occasionally tolerate something he may find unsavory, distasteful, or just plain stupid.

The First Amendment protects your right to say and believe what you want. The other side of the coin is that *everyone else* has that right as well.

Ours is a society that encourages the free and open exchange of ideas. You are just going to have to learn to live with it.

Live and let live. And if someone gets in your face pushing a religious belief, tell them to piss off.


----------



## guy incognito (Dec 10, 2010)

Johnnyorganic said:


> Just what do you mean by 'not tolerate?' Because in your previous post you said they should be *stamped out*, which has rather sinister connotations.
> 
> And just who would determine what is irrational and not to be tolerated?
> 
> ...


When I say "stamped out" I don't mean the government should abolish your right to believe. I mean we as humans, for our own good, ought to *discourage *ridiculous religious beliefs and *encourage* rational beliefs. Who decides what's rational? The evidence does. If you believe global warming is a hoax you should have some evidence and data to back up your claim. If you think global warming is going to destroy the earth in the next 3 years you should also have some evidence. When you have the evidence, and an unbiased approach to analyzing what the data means you can then rationally debate what it all means. 

Intolerance based on uncontrollable factors, or opinions are bullshit and I hope you don't think I am condoning that. Different strokes for different folks. However, I don't feel an uneducated opinion that is not based on any evidence should be sacred and tolerated simply for the sake of tolerance. If you want to have an opinion on a matter with NO evidence, such as god, then that's fine, but I won't respect you or that belief. It still bothers me that you would elect to hold this belief in spite of the lack of evidence, but as long as you keep it to yourself I don't care. Not all religious people keep it to themselves though. Religious views are incorporate into legislation and education, and that affects EVERYONE.

Anytime you allow a religious belief, or any belief that is held with no objective evidence to determine if it's correct, to taint your thinking and analysis of a situation humanity as a whole suffers. Children are not properly educated, and rights are denied to certain individuals. All because of a fairy tale. In some states a man can go to prison for having anal sex with another consenting male adult in the privacy of their home. Please enlighten me and give me a good reason why society should tolerate that kind of bullshit.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Dec 10, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> When I say "stamped out" I don't mean the government should abolish your right to believe. I mean we as humans, for our own good, ought to *discourage *ridiculous religious beliefs and *encourage* rational beliefs. Who decides what's rational? The evidence does. If you believe global warming is a hoax you should have some evidence and data to back up your claim. If you think global warming is going to destroy the earth in the next 3 years you should also have some evidence. When you have the evidence, and an unbiased approach to analyzing what the data means you can then rationally debate what it all means.


That is where it gets murky. Who decides what is viable evidence and what is not? Again I point to man made climate change. Each side rejects out of hand the evidence presented by the other. The climate has not warmed since 1995, but that does not stop the warmers from pursuing their agenda because they have accepted *only* their view as dogma and reject all dissent. So, who is the arbiter? The government? Again I say no.



guy incognito said:


> Intolerance based on uncontrollable factors, or opinions are bullshit and I hope you don't think I am condoning that. Different strokes for different folks. However, I don't feel an uneducated opinion that is not based on any evidence should be sacred and tolerated simply for the sake of tolerance. If you want to have an opinion on a matter with NO evidence, such as god, then that's fine, but I won't respect you or that belief. It still bothers me that you would elect to hold this belief in spite of the lack of evidence, but as long as you keep it to yourself I don't care. Not all religious people keep it to themselves though. Religious views are incorporate into legislation and education, and that affects EVERYONE.


They have the *right* not to keep it to themselves.

You have the *right* to ignore them.

Religion was purged from public education in 1963 thanks to the work of Madelyn Murray O'Hare.

While I agree with you that it is not acceptable to have 'In god We Trust' on our currency, property tax exemptions for houses of worship, 'under god' in the pledge of alliegance, a national holiday celebrating a zombie's birthday, and another one to celebrate it's re-animation; those things are all correctable using the power of the Constitution.



guy incognito said:


> Anytime you allow a religious belief, or any belief that is held with no objective evidence to determine if it's correct, to taint your thinking and analysis of a situation humanity as a whole suffers. Children are not properly educated, and rights are denied to certain individuals. All because of a fairy tale. In some states a man can go to prison for having anal sex with another consenting male adult in the privacy of their home. Please enlighten me and give me a good reason why society should tolerate that kind of bullshit.


Incorrect. Sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS in 2003. You may bugger anyone you like without legal consequences as long as it is between consenting adults. See Lawrence v. Texas.


----------



## Stoner.Barbie (Dec 10, 2010)

what u talking about Willis, christmas is all about Santa and presents! lol i used to believe, but now i know its all an elaborate story historicalized to control the masses with fear. but then thats just one barbies opinion.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Dec 10, 2010)

Stoner.Barbie said:


> what u talking about Willis, christmas is all about Santa and presents! lol i used to believe, but now i know its all an elaborate story historicalized to control the masses with fear. but then thats just one barbies opinion.


 Which story?

The one about the jolly elf and his eight flying reindeer?

Or the *less* believable one about God raping Mary; producing Jesse; who was executed as a heretic, then became a zombie for 40 days before levitating into the clouds?


----------



## FeFiFoFUM (Dec 10, 2010)

My brain is bleeding now that Ive read through this garbage.

No offense to any of the people here who have posted, especially all of you who went through great legnths to sound so damn intelligent.

You scholars missed one important fact. 
Men are evil rotten to the fucking core.

Do you seriously think if there were no religion that leaders wouldnt use science to justify killing for profit?
or hell just doing it and justifying thier actions by thier own countries need? shit man people in masses dont need credible reasons to support war. 

people in masses dont need religion or anything else to justify horrible things, American History should teach you that. 

in summary

humanity is so fucked up that we dont need any reason to kill our fellow man Killing for GOD just sounds good I guess.


----------



## mastakoosh (Dec 10, 2010)

FeFiFoFUM said:


> people in masses dont need religion or anything else to justify horrible things, American History should teach you that.
> 
> in summary
> 
> humanity is so fucked up that we dont need any reason to kill our fellow man Killing for GOD just sounds good I guess.


 exactly i have said this same exact thing before too. sorry but i dont think the core values of religion cause people to do corrupt things, i believe it is human nature to use different tactics to manipulate for personal gain and hidden agendas. what is the percentage of knowledge of our own galaxy and beyond? how far fetched in scientific terms is it to think there is something more complex than our minds can comprehend or something bigger than all of us as a whole?


----------



## guy incognito (Dec 11, 2010)

Johnnyorganic said:


> That is where it gets murky. Who decides what is viable evidence and what is not? Again I point to man made climate change. Each side rejects out of hand the evidence presented by the other. The climate has not warmed since 1995, but that does not stop the warmers from pursuing their agenda because they have accepted *only* their view as dogma and reject all dissent. So, who is the arbiter? The government? Again I say no.
> 
> 
> They have the *right* not to keep it to themselves.
> ...


The scientific community decides what is valid evidence through peer review. The entire process is self correcting. I have seen tons of bullshit on both sides of that debate. The thing is though that it will eventually sort itself out and truth WILL prevail. You cannot argue against real data. You can argue that it wasn't collected through a valid method, or that someones conclusions don't agree with what the data is saying, but eventually the truth will stand on its own merit. 

Religion was officially purged from public education, but religious views absolutely infect the public school system. You don't think personal religious views affect the people in charge of purchasing textbooks? 

Those things are correctable through the constitution, but the fact that they even have to be corrected in the first place validates my point. 

I stand corrected on the sodomy laws. That still means religious views denied the rights of people to consentingly sodomize each other from the inception of this country until 2003. Unless they had some other reason besides religion, with no real foundation in reality, to deny people those rights?


----------



## guy incognito (Dec 11, 2010)

mastakoosh said:


> exactly i have said this same exact thing before too. sorry but i dont think the core values of religion cause people to do corrupt things, i believe it is human nature to use different tactics to manipulate for personal gain and hidden agendas. what is the percentage of knowledge of our own galaxy and beyond? how far fetched in scientific terms is it to think there is something more complex than our minds can comprehend or something bigger than all of us as a whole?


They DO though. They are inherently irrational. People will do shitty things, and i'm not saying religion is to blame for all of it. It certainly is to blame for a lot of it. If you hate gay people, or you think abortion is wrong, and you have no real fundamental underlying reasoning, only religious views (which from experience is NOT a minority of people who hate gays and abortions) then you are a fool and your opinion should NOT be respected or tolerated.

I dont even understand your other questions. "how far fetched in scientific terms is it to think there is something more complex than our minds can comprehend or something bigger than all of us as a whole?"

I don't know. Do you have any evidence to suggest this is the case, or is it purely wild speculation? If you have some reason to think there is, please share it. If not then I don't understand why the view should be given equal weight.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Dec 11, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> The scientific community decides what is valid evidence through peer review. The entire process is self correcting. I have seen tons of bullshit on both sides of that debate. The thing is though that it will eventually sort itself out and truth WILL prevail. You cannot argue against real data. You can argue that it wasn't collected through a valid method, or that someones conclusions don't agree with what the data is saying, but eventually the truth will stand on its own merit.


And once again, who decides what is *valid*?

The rabbit hole is there, but you refuse to see it.



guy incognito said:


> Religion was officially purged from public education, but religious views absolutely infect the public school system. You don't think personal religious views affect the people in charge of purchasing textbooks?
> 
> Those things are correctable through the constitution, but the fact that they even have to be corrected in the first place validates my point.


Actually, it does not. 

We do not live in a vacuum. History is happening all around us.

Do you honesly think Germans in the in the 1930's said to themselves, "Yea, we're Nazis now. Awesome!"



guy incognito said:


> I stand corrected on the sodomy laws. That still means religious views denied the rights of people to consentingly sodomize each other from the inception of this country until 2003. Unless they had some other reason besides religion, with no real foundation in reality, to deny people those rights?


Every process takes time. You cannot simply snap your fingers and expect perfection.


----------



## Nice Ol Bud (Dec 11, 2010)

Respect to be Respected man..

NoB


----------



## FeFiFoFUM (Dec 11, 2010)

Where is the evidence that science is correct about evolution, or the creation of the universe.... I KNOW religion can not be proven, but science cant explain shit either. the big bang theory? lol seriously? or is that theory now outdated and replaced with a better one that still... doesnt prove shit.

Also, what is peer evaluation when the majority of the people evaluating the subject already think the same way in the first place? 
Hell... I could get 1000 police officers and govt officials who are experts in their field to agree that cannabis is a dangerous substance that supports terrorism. but we all know thats bullshit right.


Hope I made my point.


----------



## Heisenberg (Dec 11, 2010)

FeFiFoFUM said:


> Where is the evidence that science is correct about evolution, or the creation of the universe.... I KNOW religion can not be proven, but science cant explain shit either. the big bang theory? lol seriously? or is that theory now outdated and replaced with a better one that still... doesnt prove shit.


You seem to think science comes up with a conclusion and then goes looking for evidence. Science only attempts to explain evidence which has already been found. Science will make predictions based on that evidence, and then try to falsify that prediction, but the underlying evidence must first be there for a theory to even be formed. Countless papers have been published with evidence of evolution and the big bang. You also seem to to think it's a bad thing for a theory to be replaced if it becomes outdated. Would you rather science stubbornly hold onto old ideas and ignore new evidence? With advancements in technology comes new information, and science often has to change it's conclusions based on the evidence that new information brings.



> Also, what is peer evaluation when the majority of the people evaluating the subject already think the same way in the first place?
> Hell... I could get 1000 police officers and govt officials who are experts in their field to agree that cannabis is a dangerous substance that supports terrorism. but we all know thats bullshit right.


You could find a bunch of experts to agree cannabis is bad, but it's partly through independent peer review that we know many of the dangers reported on marijuana are myths. You said it yourself, we all know it's bullshit. We, the peers, through independent review, have found that claims of marijuana being dangerous are false. Peer review in action.

Once science gets a result, it tries exhaustively to make that result false. Part of this process involves having independent researchers reproduce and interpret your results.

As far as the topic, should we tolerate religion, absolutely! Should we tolerate religion effecting our lives on an intrusive personal level if we don't believe, absolutely not! If you are not part of the club you shouldn't be subjected to the clubs rules.


----------



## weed4cash (Dec 11, 2010)

I put up with the religion of evolution.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Dec 11, 2010)

weed4cash said:


> I put up with the religion of evolution.


That's an insanely stupid statement.

And that's *correcting* for the fact that it was made by someone who believes in an *invisible man* in the sky and a divine *zombie*.

I see many churches in everyday life, but I have *never* seen one dedicated to the Theory of Evolution. 

There is no St. Darwin's Cathedral. 

No Scopes Monkey Temple. 

Not even a Church of the Quivering Primordial Goo.


----------



## mindphuk (Dec 12, 2010)

Johnnyorganic said:


> Not even a Church of the Quivering Primordial Goo.


 That sounds similar to my church... the Church of Bubbling Marinara 

Ramen


----------



## Stoner.Barbie (Dec 12, 2010)

Johnnyorganic said:


> Which story?
> 
> The one about the jolly elf and his eight flying reindeer?
> 
> Or the *less* believable one about God raping Mary; producing Jesse; who was executed as a heretic, then became a zombie for 40 days before levitating into the clouds?


the one about the zombie, 5000 years ago the egyptions used the same story. so in essence 3000 years later the story was revived, put in a book and changed the names.


----------



## TaoWolf (Dec 13, 2010)

mountainSpliff said:


> Should we be tolerating religion when it is the cause of war and ignorance?
> 
> Religions dont tolerate each other or anyone outside them.
> 
> Why should we tolerate religion?


How can you literally not tolerate religion? Offend them and use peer pressure to sway them? Censor all religious texts? Lock up people who think religious thoughts? Go to war against them? March them off to gas chambers and incinerate them? 

What's the plan? =P


----------



## guy incognito (Dec 13, 2010)

Johnnyorganic said:


> And once again, who decides what is *valid*?
> 
> The rabbit hole is there, but you refuse to see it.
> 
> ...


I don't understand by what you mean "who determines what is valid". The evidence is either valid or not. Either the temperature measured at a certain location is accurate, or it is not. Either the polar ice cap is melting, or it's not. The only thing up for debate is whether the method you used to obtain that measurement is accurate and not biased. I think what you are getting at is who determines if the conclusion drawn from the evidence is valid? I think it's premature on a lot of issues, but not on others. Does a 2*F increase in average temperature over this region prove global warming? I dont know, but eventually you will get enough data to know one way or another. I don't care what you personally believe in, you cannot deny all the evidence for evolution. Nobody specifically determines the evidence for evolution is "valid". It stands on its own merit.

How does it not prove my point? If something is correctable it must not currently be correct. The mere fact that the situation is in need of correcting means it is wrong. Somehow the powers that be decided all that bullshit you mentioned was a good idea. It was tolerated to such an extent that it was given preferential treatment. We don't live in a vaccuum; we live in an irrational minded world tainted with superstitious beliefs. 

Expecting people to think rationally for themselves and not blindly hate based on the words in the bible is not exactly "perfection". Every process takes time, but if it wasn't for religion a lot of those processes wouldn't even need to be gone through. Unless you think people would have a deep hatred of homosexuals without religious influence? I'm basing my argument on that these laws were based on religion, if not directly, then through a bias of the lawmaker.


----------



## Heisenberg (Dec 13, 2010)

> Unless you think people would have a deep hatred of homosexuals without religious influence? I'm basing my argument on that these laws were based on religion, if not directly, then through a bias of the lawmaker.


I think a big part of homophobia comes from not understanding. We fear what we can not understand, and who can understand homosexuality? It doesn't make sense + it's repulsive to think about = easy to hate. Religion just offers justification IMO.


----------



## guy incognito (Dec 13, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> I think a big part of homophobia comes from not understanding. We fear what we can not understand, and who can understand homosexuality? It doesn't make sense + it's repulsive to think about = easy to hate. Religion just offers justification IMO.


I know it does, but would those people that were making laws against sodomy have made the law without religious justification? Would they have just used some other excuse to make it illegal? And why would people accept such a law without religious bias of their own? I still tend to think if there was NO religious influence saying "This is wrong!" then it would not have been so illegal.


----------



## Johnnyorganic (Dec 14, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> I don't understand by what you mean "who determines what is valid". The evidence is either valid or not. Either the temperature measured at a certain location is accurate, or it is not. Either the polar ice cap is melting, or it's not. The only thing up for debate is whether the method you used to obtain that measurement is accurate and not biased. I think what you are getting at is who determines if the conclusion drawn from the evidence is valid? I think it's premature on a lot of issues, but not on others. Does a 2*F increase in average temperature over this region prove global warming? I dont know, but eventually you will get enough data to know one way or another. I don't care what you personally believe in, you cannot deny all the evidence for evolution. Nobody specifically determines the evidence for evolution is "valid". It stands on its own merit.
> 
> How does it not prove my point? If something is correctable it must not currently be correct. The mere fact that the situation is in need of correcting means it is wrong. Somehow the powers that be decided all that bullshit you mentioned was a good idea. It was tolerated to such an extent that it was given preferential treatment. We don't live in a vaccuum; we live in an irrational minded world tainted with superstitious beliefs.
> 
> Expecting people to think rationally for themselves and not blindly hate based on the words in the bible is not exactly "perfection". Every process takes time, but if it wasn't for religion a lot of those processes wouldn't even need to be gone through. Unless you think people would have a deep hatred of homosexuals without religious influence? I'm basing my argument on that these laws were based on religion, if not directly, then through a bias of the lawmaker.


Western civilization owes its existence to the Church. During the Dark Ages, the Church was the government. Most of the written history we have from that era is derived from Church documents. It was the Church that was responsible for the expulsion of the Muslim invasion of Europe. As the Protestant Reformation and the Renaissance took hold, the church began to lose its hold on the reins of power as regions became Nationalized and governments in the form of Monarchies began to wrest influence away from the Church. It did not happen all at once, and we are still seeing the residual effects even today. These correctable issues to which I refer are examples.

The church did not create marriage, but learned very early that by establishing rules for it and controlling marriage, the Church benefited. Now a couple may be married by a Justice of the Peace in the cheap showiness of nature and the Church can't say a damn thing about it. As far as homosexuality is concerned, in any society beliefs and practices that are unusual or odd are shunned or openly discouraged. This is not a function of the Church, regardless of whether the Church takes a stand on a particular issue or not is irrelevant; instead it is more an indictment of the human condition. As we progress, as we continue to move through history; we come to understand that just because a particular practice may not be our cup of tea, as long as it does not infringe on our rights it should be tolerated.

That is what I mean by correctable. These residual issues which go against the Constitution can and should be addressed. Slavery existed when the Constitution was ratified by the states in 1787 in spite of the Bill of Rights because slaves were considered property, not citizens. It took over eighty years to correct that misinterpretation of the Constitution. And that did not abolish slavery because it exists even today across the globe. But it did make it illegal in the United States.


----------

