# How far can "ripeness" be pushed?



## tstick (Feb 11, 2021)

My understanding has always been that the flowers are at their peak ripeness when the trichomes become milky with about 20% of them turning amber. 

But when did this become the common ideal? 

I'm pretty old and been growing off and on (mostly with no idea what I was doing, tbh) since the mid 1970's. I never knew anyone back then who had any idea about trichomes. Back then, the only way growers knew the plants were ripe was when the seeds were ripe! And those ripe seeds usually were accompanied by leaf color that was light green or yellow (gold)...sometimes reddish-brown..."Fall colors" let's say. 

Growers who grow plants for smoking, don't (usually) allow their female plants to be pollinated and produce seeds. At some point in time, the milky/amber trichome formula became the ideal for determining when to harvest. My bet is that, when people determined that THC was the "psychoactive component" in marijuana, and started to test for it, they found that the milky stage was when THC levels were highest. When the milkiness changes to amber, then there is degradation in THC...Therefore, all amber trichs would produce less potent marijuana. But...Is that true? What about the other, non-tested-for components in the flowers? Do any of those increase? -flavonoids, terpenoids, volatile esters, etc.

I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that a lot of personal-use growers are using big, industrial, high-yield grow ops as a model to follow. "The guy with the biggest plants, wins". And, in doing so, the small op growers cheat themselves out of the luxury of being able to take extra time for their plants to ripen and develop more complexities and unique smells and flavors. 

I can say, for sure, that whenever I scope any weed that I buy in the commercial market, the trichomes are _clear._ In other words, they are underdeveloped and not ripe. And I'm not talking about some bottom-shelf shwag. I'm talking about the best stuff available in the store! This is the stuff that people buy and then review and say how great it is....But they also have to stuff their noses entirely into the jars in order to get the smell! "Piney" "Lemony", they say.  I think part of it is that the pinene and limonene terpenes develop earlier than some of the others. Maybe if those flowers were let to TRULY ripen to milky/amber or all amber, then they wouldn't be so piney or lemony anymore. But, hey, if the big producers need to meet a quota and the plants are still not ripe, then just harvest them, anyway. It' good enough.

Based on this, I don't believe it's a good idea for the personal-use ops growers to use the same criteria as the industry uses...because the industry doesn't care about putting out ripe marijuana. 

Thoughts?


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## Rurumo (Feb 11, 2021)

I agree, most commercial weed is harvested early for profit reasons, it's one of the reasons people such as ourselves, people of class and distinction, turn to home growing. Commercial growers focus on production, period-since the market only seems to care about thc%, other aspects of quality fall by the wayside. It's one of the reasons modern strains have lost so much of the character as the strains of yore.


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## SSHZ (Feb 11, 2021)

Many sativa strains trichomes won't change to amber, unless you wait 20 weeks or more. Indica's show their ripeness much easier. Trichome coloring is just one indication, of many.


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## tstick (Feb 11, 2021)

SSHZ said:


> Many sativa strains trichomes won't change to amber, unless you wait 20 weeks or more. Indica's show their ripeness much easier. Trichome coloring is just one indication, of many.


Yes, and this is why people might need to wait 20 weeks to get them truly ripe. But I think it's kind of a shame that the industry doesn't do that with their Sativa. In fact, I wonder if that's the reason why Sativa are now perceived as "up" or "energetic" types of highs. I mean, I smoked many-a-Mexican Sativa strain back in the day and they knocked us onto the couch as bad as any Indica ever did. Again, most of those Sativas were grown until the seeds were dark and ripe...and that may have taken 20 weeks for all I know. But I think if they get pollinated, then the ripening period is considerably shorter.
So, when "sinsemilla" started happening, the criteria for ripening changed. Obviously we couldn't use the seeds to gauge it. I think it's VERY rare for there to be a fully ripe Sativa available in the commercial market. You're basically getting underripe trichomes, regardless.

We, the superior, distinguished, small-batch connoisseurs must not compare what we can do with what the industry is trying to shove at us. "Take it or leave it!" is what they offer...and leave it we will!


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## printer (Feb 11, 2021)

I have some bought weed from when we legalized. I looked at it with my microscope out of curiosity and saw, the trichomes were missing. One of the reasons I still have it is because I haven't really got ripped on it. It is a Diesel, should do something to a, haven't smoked anything for 15-20 years guy. I really should grow a strain to do that though (mainly medical). Maybe in the summer.


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## tstick (Feb 11, 2021)

printer said:


> I have some bought weed from when we legalized. I looked at it with my microscope out of curiosity and saw, the trichomes were missing. One of the reasons I still have it is because I haven't really got ripped on it. It is a Diesel, should do something to a, haven't smoked anything for 15-20 years guy. I really should grow a strain to do that though (mainly medical). Maybe in the summer.


I've seen this, too. I think some of the buds get so shaken around by the time they get to market, most of the trich heads are gone. Those buds can appear frosty at a glance because the stems of the trichs are still attached to the leaves...but no heads on them!


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## SSHZ (Feb 11, 2021)

Yes, that has to do with rough handling and just not caring for the buds properly.


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## spliffendz (Feb 11, 2021)

Would be better if a load of excellent growers got together and opened a dispensary with proper harvested, trimmed and cured buds


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## tstick (Feb 11, 2021)

spliffendz said:


> Would be better if a load of excellent growers got together and opened a dispensary with proper harvested, trimmed and cured buds


Yes, it would. But I fear that it would be like having too many cooks in the kitchen unless all the growers were family-related! Eventually, one expert would disagree with the other expert and...well....


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## spliffendz (Feb 11, 2021)

tstick said:


> Yes, it would. But I fear that it would be like having too many cooks in the kitchen unless all the growers were family-related! Eventually, one expert would disagree with the other expert and...well....


That's the point though, they each have their own kitchen


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## tstick (Feb 11, 2021)

spliffendz said:


> That's the point though, they each have their own kitchen


OOooooh...okay!


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## spliffendz (Feb 11, 2021)

tstick said:


> OOooooh...okay!


Too many cooks spoil a broth. They all make a broth, Simon Cowell and Gordon |Ramsay come in and slay them and then the chosen buds are manicured sophistically by infantile caimans and then carried by the daintiest fairies to the dispensary and sold


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## tstick (Feb 12, 2021)

Okay, okay...But I still really need some comments about just how far a plant can be ripened before it starts to degrade to the point of not being any good. The reason I am curious is because I've never seen a thread about plants that are "over"-ripe. And most of the pics, (as awesome as many of them are) are mostly clear, milky with a few amber thrown in, bright green...beautiful!....But what about buds that have all-amber trichs? -never seen any pics of those. I'm wondering how the flavors and smells change as the trichomes become more and more amber and the sugar leaves exhaust their chlorophyll. I plan on doing some more experiments in future grows, but at the moment, I only have two plants and I don't want to risk it this time.

What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes. That's what I'm hoping to find out by asking this time. Eventually, I will find out by doing.


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Feb 12, 2021)

I'm just basically always planning on 10 weeks for indicas and .. well have not grown many heavy sativas but I would guess.. 13 ish? But I am all about getting that amber all over... imo... if you want less stoned smoke less  again just me


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Feb 12, 2021)

tstick said:


> Okay, okay...But I still really need some comments about just how far a plant can be ripened before it starts to degrade to the point of not being any good. The reason I am curious is because I've never seen a thread about plants that are "over"-ripe. And most of the pics, (as awesome as many of them are) are mostly clear, milky with a few amber thrown in, bright green...beautiful!....But what about buds that have all-amber trichs? -never seen any pics of those. I'm wondering how the flavors and smells change as the trichomes become more and more amber and the sugar leaves exhaust their chlorophyll. I plan on doing some more experiments in future grows, but at the moment, I only have two plants and I don't want to risk it this time.
> 
> What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes. That's what I'm hoping to find out by asking this time. Eventually, I will find out by doing.


I have done this for sure.... hence my preference  I encourage you to do the same and see which you like!


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## Cousin_suds (Feb 12, 2021)

I would like to see somedody do lab tests to see if the potency changes as the plants get older. say the thc at 7 weeks, then 8 weeks. 9 weeks etc...
It would take somebody with deep pockets, but would be interesting and maybe settle the question about flowering times.


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## viewer1020 (Feb 15, 2021)

tstick said:


> What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes.


I've harvested between 6 and 12 weeks, cuttings of the same plant which I grew for years. It was a bagseed in Australia, so I can't make any solid comparisons with strains you'll be familiar with, but its qualities were (by description) similar to the original Princess behind the Cinderella 99 strain. I grew about twenty bagseeds when I started, and that was the smallest but also the tastiest of the lot so I kept its cuttings for propagation.

Over the years I grew this plant, I harvested most at 8 or 9 weeks - partly because I was running a perpetual on a tight schedule, and partly because that harvest time accentuated the energetic, alert aspects of the effect.

The harvest after 6 weeks gave a very clear buzzing high, but the yield was predictably poor and it always left me wanting more shortly afterwards.

The (one) cutting which I ran for 12 weeks was _delicious_. It was always a tasty plant, but the pine and lemon were still dominant at 9 weeks. The 12-week plant had a crazy array of fruity flavours, and a more mellow effect. Also a higher yield, but not enough to compensate for the extra four weeks in the perpetual flowering area. To my mind, the plant was ready at this point. Maybe she could have run for another week or two, but the fan leaves were all dropping off, and the sugar leaves were yellowing and dying at the tips. From memory, I was aiming for some amber trichomes - just any at all, because I'd only really seen clear and cloudy from my own harvests. It was years ago now, but my memory of looking at the buds says I did get some amber in there - it was not at the extreme all-amber end of the scale, though.

Perhaps most significantly, my friend who used weed for chronic pain said the 12-week buds gave the best pain relief and restoration of ability she'd had from any weed ever. I was planning to reconfigure the area for 12-week harvests for her from that point on - because who cares about yield if it comes at the cost of quality of life? Life got in the way though, and the plant and grow setup are gone. I have some of her seeds (crossed with a random sativa-dominant) so I'm hoping her children will contribute to my future grows though.


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## ZeeeDoc (Feb 19, 2021)

I ran a white Rhino many years ago that looked ready by week 9( very indica Dom) I left it go another couple weeks and by this stage it was 95% amber trichomes, heavy yield, absolutely stunk and after the cure I’ve never smelt anything like it to this day. I always try to grow so they become overripe, I find the best smells and tastes at this stage.


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## Millo (Feb 20, 2021)

ZeeeDoc said:


> I ran a white Rhino many years ago that looked ready by week 9( very indica Dom) I left it go another couple weeks and by this stage it was 95% amber trichomes, heavy yield, absolutely stunk and after the cure I’ve never smelt anything like it to this day. I always try to grow so they become overripe, I find the best smells and tastes at this stage.


What about the effects tho? Did you notice any difference in the high other than smell/taste?


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## ZeeeDoc (Feb 20, 2021)

Millo said:


> What about the effects tho? Did you notice any difference in the high other than smell/taste?


To be honest it was pure Knock out. Heavy heavy. Everyone who tried it all said the same. Not for beginners type. I’ve had plants that were mostly amber trichomes and still had a nice up high... Then you die lol But the Rhino put you on your ass from the get go.


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## M.O. (Feb 20, 2021)

Sign me up for baby caiman trimmers and naked pixies to fetch my bud!

The market is going to be fucked for a long, long time in my opinion. Maybe forever if big money has their way. 

Best thing to do is find a plant that likes your garden and just test it. If you can run from clone you can dial in your effects.

I have a listed 10 week keeper that I run for 90 days minimum from the 12 hour flip. The difference between 12 weeks and 13 is astounding on this particular plant. All aspects are amped up but it’s not until that last week it kicks in enough juice to help with pain. I wasn’t expecting such a dramatic effect going an extra week as 12 is damn nice already. I know that even another pheno from the pack would have a different timing or possibly different effects. I’m patient and persistent so I find what I want.

The goal of a business is to turn profit not create decent product. It’s that’s simple. Look at food. Cars. Anything. 

Speaking of not following the industry. Hopefully photoperiods will survive the onslaught of autos. I’m hoping my personal seed bank will be enough to keep photos going indefinitely in my garden (and beyond hopefully) but sure would be nice if I didn’t have to worry. When all people care about is money though, well that’s all they’re going to care about. You better believe big money hates photos and wants them gone.


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## sf_frankie (Feb 20, 2021)

tstick said:


> Okay, okay...But I still really need some comments about just how far a plant can be ripened before it starts to degrade to the point of not being any good. The reason I am curious is because I've never seen a thread about plants that are "over"-ripe. And most of the pics, (as awesome as many of them are) are mostly clear, milky with a few amber thrown in, bright green...beautiful!....But what about buds that have all-amber trichs? -never seen any pics of those. I'm wondering how the flavors and smells change as the trichomes become more and more amber and the sugar leaves exhaust their chlorophyll. I plan on doing some more experiments in future grows, but at the moment, I only have two plants and I don't want to risk it this time.
> 
> What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes. That's what I'm hoping to find out by asking this time. Eventually, I will find out by doing.


I've got over 30 plants of the same strain going right now and intended to use a few of them for experiments. I like this idea, I might make it one of the tests. I'll document everything if I do.


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## ComfortCreator (Feb 20, 2021)

I just harvested an Amnesia Lemon from Barneys Farm. It is listed as an 8 to 9 week strain. I just harvested it after 14.5 weeks of flower. 

It could have gone longer, but it wasnt an experiment in this case it was when it was done.

I grew a 9 week Strawnana strain to 9 weeks, 12 weeks and 14 weeks once. I was told the taste was best with the 9 weeks, and potency was stronger with 12 and 14.


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## Southernontariogrower (Feb 20, 2021)

tstick said:


> Okay, okay...But I still really need some comments about just how far a plant can be ripened before it starts to degrade to the point of not being any good. The reason I am curious is because I've never seen a thread about plants that are "over"-ripe. And most of the pics, (as awesome as many of them are) are mostly clear, milky with a few amber thrown in, bright green...beautiful!....But what about buds that have all-amber trichs? -never seen any pics of those. I'm wondering how the flavors and smells change as the trichomes become more and more amber and the sugar leaves exhaust their chlorophyll. I plan on doing some more experiments in future grows, but at the moment, I only have two plants and I don't want to risk it this time.
> 
> What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes. That's what I'm hoping to find out by asking this time. Eventually, I will find out by doing.


Maybe as zoon as you get budrot


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## Redrum42 (Feb 28, 2021)

IME, harvesting a couple weeks early is much more harmful than harvesting a couple weeks late, as long as your fan game is dialed in and you dont get mold. I definitely get better results when I harvest on the later side, but have never done side by side tests. I should.


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## migenetics (Mar 1, 2021)

Cousin_suds said:


> I would like to see somedody do lab tests to see if the potency changes as the plants get older. say the thc at 7 weeks, then 8 weeks. 9 weeks etc...
> It would take somebody with deep pockets, but would be interesting and maybe settle the question about flowering times.


I think odie from homegrown natural wonders did this with quantum kush( could be off but it was on a episode of the pot cast) whatever the case, he tested buds pulled at 6,7,8,9,10 weeks and the highest thc was at 6 weeks and degrading from then on. I'm sure it has to with the bud size in relation to trichrome production. As the bud swells it still has the same amount of trichs per calyx so that would be why IMO.


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## tstick (Mar 12, 2021)

I just put one plant into a 72 hour dark period after 13 weeks. The other plant is about 10 days behind it and still going. I will never and I repeat NEVER harvest a plant when its fan leaves are still green. I will let ALL the Fall colors develop from now on. The smells and looks have evolved SO much more than I have let them achieve before, when I was harvesting too soon.

8 weeks just isn't log enough for a photoperiod plant...And, as far as autos are concerned, I don't like them and don't care.

I'd say that 11 weeks should be the minimum that any photoperiod plant should be chopped...but definitely not 8.


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## BarknPunkin (May 24, 2021)

I flipped my african sativas to 11/13 four weeks ago. Told my testers to not expect any cutting before Labor Day.


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## TheWholeTruth (May 24, 2021)

tstick said:


> Okay, okay...But I still really need some comments about just how far a plant can be ripened before it starts to degrade to the point of not being any good. The reason I am curious is because I've never seen a thread about plants that are "over"-ripe. And most of the pics, (as awesome as many of them are) are mostly clear, milky with a few amber thrown in, bright green...beautiful!....But what about buds that have all-amber trichs? -never seen any pics of those. I'm wondering how the flavors and smells change as the trichomes become more and more amber and the sugar leaves exhaust their chlorophyll. I plan on doing some more experiments in future grows, but at the moment, I only have two plants and I don't want to risk it this time.
> 
> What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes. That's what I'm hoping to find out by asking this time. Eventually, I will find out by doing.


Ive done that. I harvested some buds at what I would say was peak harvest and they were very good. Then I let the rest go very amber, very over done. The smell was quite deep and intoxicating very dark, but the bud has no high at all any more, tasted richer and smoother tho. I never did it again after that as I didnt want to get dead bud again. Not very scientific but thats my experience.


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## waterproof808 (May 24, 2021)

Trichomes turning amber is THC degrading into CBN. There are better and easier indicators of ripeness than trichome color and they don't require a jewelers loupe.


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## Southernontariogrower (May 24, 2021)

80 to 90 days if company says 65 days. Imo only as some strains are done in 65 days. But they are advertised as 45 to 50 day 2 weeks of 12x12 is veg and stretch not flower. Sometimes 3 weeks before flowering sets in.


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## Southside112 (May 25, 2021)

waterproof808 said:


> Trichomes turning amber is THC degrading into CBN. There are better and easier indicators of ripeness than trichome color and they don't require a jewelers loupe.


Care to elaborate on the easier methods of ripeness? I'm interested. Thanks.


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## Southernontariogrower (May 25, 2021)

Southside112 said:


> Care to elaborate on the easier methods of ripeness? I'm interested. Thanks.


Id guess anything over 90 days, calixs swelling and hairs receding tell you its ripe too imo


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## Southside112 (May 25, 2021)

Southernontariogrower said:


> Id guess anything over 90 days, tricombs swelling and hairs receding tell you its ripe too imo


Agreed. They get a certain look when they're done. I'm all for easier as I do look at them under a loupe. Just curious what @waterproof808 does. Cheers.


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## Southernontariogrower (May 25, 2021)

tstick said:


> I just put one plant into a 72 hour dark period after 13 weeks. The other plant is about 10 days behind it and still going. I will never and I repeat NEVER harvest a plant when its fan leaves are still green. I will let ALL the Fall colors develop from now on. The smells and looks have evolved SO much more than I have let them achieve before, when I was harvesting too soon.
> 
> 8 weeks just isn't log enough for a photoperiod plant...And, as far as autos are concerned, I don't like them and don't care.
> 
> I'd say that 11 weeks should be the minimum that any photoperiod plant should be chopped...but definitely not 8.


Agree! 100% would like to know what he says too!


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## Southernontariogrower (May 25, 2021)

waterproof808 said:


> Trichomes turning amber is THC degrading into CBN. There are better and easier indicators of ripeness than trichome color and they don't require a jewelers loupe.


What indicators?


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## Nutty sKunK (May 30, 2021)

In my experience there’s a peak ‘smell’ in flowering. Usually at the end.

whenever I’ve left them go and go the smell always dies back a bit.

Smell = flavour


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## PJ Diaz (May 30, 2021)

I have a strain which can be cut anywhere between 56 days and 70 days from flip to 12/12. It's "done" in that window, depending on desired effects and terps, so I will often do a staggered harvest of that strain. It will put on around 25% more weight if I let it go 10-weeks vs 8.


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## GanjaJack (Jul 29, 2021)

Ripeness can be pushed until the trichs start degrading, then you are in a race between time and THC degradation.


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## Rob Roy (Sep 8, 2021)

It's kind of like cooking a steak. 

Take a few clones from a mother plant. Prepare / veg each in the same soil, same nutes etc. Flower them under the same lights, same temps. etc.
Harvest them at different dates. Let a couple go very long. Record your times etc. Take pictures if you're into that. Test them. 

When you find the one you like, there's your answer. 

The longer you work with a particular girl, the more you'll know what she wants or when she's gonna have a head ache.


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## mandocat (Sep 8, 2021)

tstick said:


> Okay, okay...But I still really need some comments about just how far a plant can be ripened before it starts to degrade to the point of not being any good. The reason I am curious is because I've never seen a thread about plants that are "over"-ripe. And most of the pics, (as awesome as many of them are) are mostly clear, milky with a few amber thrown in, bright green...beautiful!....But what about buds that have all-amber trichs? -never seen any pics of those. I'm wondering how the flavors and smells change as the trichomes become more and more amber and the sugar leaves exhaust their chlorophyll. I plan on doing some more experiments in future grows, but at the moment, I only have two plants and I don't want to risk it this time.
> 
> What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes. That's what I'm hoping to find out by asking this time. Eventually, I will find out by doing.


I did this last year with a large plant outdoors. I harvested parts of it 3 times over a 3 week period. The middle batch was the one I preferred. I didn't compare trichomes between each batch, but I know I looked at them. I also left a few small buds on harvested plants just to experience their potential. While I agree that commercial cannabis is under ripe generally, over ripe cannabis that I grew was even less desirable. That is one of the reasons why you have to grow a strain several times to more fully realize it's potential. I have another large plant this year, so I will try to document the trichomes at each successive harvest.


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## NanoGadget (Sep 8, 2021)

I try to push all my plants (I only grow indica and indica leaning hybrids) to 10 or 11 weeks. I have run my Orkle (Urkle x Tahoe OG) out to 12 weeks before and did not like the difference. It lost a lot of the taste and smell I love so much and it was not as potent.


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## Hiddengems (Sep 8, 2021)

tstick said:


> Okay, okay...But I still really need some comments about just how far a plant can be ripened before it starts to degrade to the point of not being any good. The reason I am curious is because I've never seen a thread about plants that are "over"-ripe. And most of the pics, (as awesome as many of them are) are mostly clear, milky with a few amber thrown in, bright green...beautiful!....But what about buds that have all-amber trichs? -never seen any pics of those. I'm wondering how the flavors and smells change as the trichomes become more and more amber and the sugar leaves exhaust their chlorophyll. I plan on doing some more experiments in future grows, but at the moment, I only have two plants and I don't want to risk it this time.
> 
> What would be really interesting to know is if anyone has had the _same_ strain and harvested some of the buds early and then let some go to the extreme amber end to see how the smell and taste changes. That's what I'm hoping to find out by asking this time. Eventually, I will find out by doing.


I've run a cut for around 3 years. I've grown it in soil, flood tables, dwc, and high pressure aero. I've pulled buds from 6 weeks to 11. After 8 weeks she gains no more weight and starts to get less gassy, but no other smells come out, just less overall smell. Potency seems to be identical from week 7 on. She does get even more sleepy around an hour after smoking the longer she goes.

The only real issue I see with going longer tha 8-9 weeks (beside wasting space and electric) is the possibility of mold or other issues.

Ill also say that after week 7ish she stops eating. The fluid levels will go down but as the water drops the ec goes up because they're just drinking now.

I have never grown any other strains to this extent. But I've really done everything with this cut.

True 8 week cuts are hard to find. Most are 9-10 weekers that "can" be chopped at 8.

Ive seen strains rock hard buds covered in trichs, stinking to high heaven at 49 days. Done.

I will say that with true early strains the high ususlly sucks, no matter how potent.


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## bam0813 (Sep 8, 2021)

printer said:


> I have some bought weed from when we legalized. I looked at it with my microscope out of curiosity and saw, the trichomes were missing. One of the reasons I still have it is because I haven't really got ripped on it. It is a Diesel, should do something to a, haven't smoked anything for 15-20 years guy. I really should grow a strain to do that though (mainly medical). Maybe in the summer.


The product gets handled so many times by the end sale I’m not surprised


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## Kindbud421 (Sep 8, 2021)

printer said:


> I have some bought weed from when we legalized. I looked at it with my microscope out of curiosity and saw, the trichomes were missing. One of the reasons I still have it is because I haven't really got ripped on it. It is a Diesel, should do something to a, haven't smoked anything for 15-20 years guy. I really should grow a strain to do that though (mainly medical). Maybe in the summer.


Also I believe that most dispensary weed is tumbled which will remove trichs


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## bam0813 (Sep 8, 2021)

I somewhat agree with the beginning so I’m curious where can we get yours or at least see it. It must be amazing. I mean green cherry vids are cool and all but


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## MustGro (Sep 8, 2021)

I can’t look at his stuff @bam0813 .
@Chungayuwoki maybe if you actually grew plants you’d know how lame your posts really are. It doesn’t take much to blab something crazy to make yourself sound like a good grower and then post some video. 
I hope the attention makes you happy.


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## Rozgreenburn (Sep 8, 2021)

Has it started again?  OK, now disappear!!!


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## HighThere (Sep 8, 2021)

M.O. said:


> The goal of a business is to turn profit not create decent product. It’s that’s simple. Look at food. Cars. Anything.


Then perhaps it's time for a new classification of commerce vessel that aims to keep quality as high as possible and not always race to the bottom? I'd be happy with a different combination of pick 2. I want the quality, would be willing to wait, and pay the extra cost. That's a far cry from the combo we have now; quick, cheap and shitty.


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## HighThere (Sep 8, 2021)

Kindbud421 said:


> Also I believe that most dispensary weed is tumbled which will remove trichs


Here in Arizona, if you look at the nugs from the dispensary with a loupe you'll see no trich heads on the best strains. I believe they use a trimmer that removes them all for the purpose of concentrate production. They're double dipping.


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## Budzbuddha (Sep 8, 2021)

Lets see the sativas… stop the nonsense.


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## Lockedin (Sep 8, 2021)

Absolutely nothing wrong with dispo weed. It's legal, accessible and gets the job done.
90% of dispensary products are Budweiser IMHO. Good, pretty stony stuff! 
*--- BUT ---*
When is the last time a jar of dispo weed reached up and grabbed you by the nose?
My Wife knew when I was choosing a new jar this morning - from the living room. --- I prefer Single Malt to Budweiser...

I'm with Budz --- bring on the 16 week sativas! 

edit - never addressed teh original question - "How far can ripeness be pushed?"
1. Try it. We've all sample early buds - why not run a plant till the buds look obviously over-ripe and see what YOU think?
You might start growing 20 week indicas! 
2. If you're looking at the back of a seed pack while asking that - get a marker and cross off the flowering time.
My 8 week OG Kush ran 9 weeks before it looked "right", so not too bad....


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## Kindbud421 (Sep 9, 2021)

Lockedin said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with dispo weed. It's legal, accessible and gets the job done.
> 90% of dispensary products are Budweiser IMHO. Good, pretty stony stuff!
> *--- BUT ---*
> When is the last time a jar of dispo weed reached up and grabbed you by the nose?
> ...


Same here! I’d rather have a high test IPA or Scotch ale over Budweiser any day!


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## Kindbud421 (Sep 9, 2021)

HighThere said:


> Here in Arizona, if you look at the nugs from the dispensary with a loupe you'll see no trich heads on the best strains. I believe they use a trimmer that removes them all for the purpose of concentrate production. They're double dipping.


Was told by a source in the business that all pre-rolls are just the trim… no bud material at all. And that’s after shaking it for keif


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## Lockedin (Sep 9, 2021)

Kindbud421 said:


> Same here! I’d rather have a high test IPA or Scotch ale over Budweiser any day!


Ironically, I quit drinking a decade ago! 
But I think that the analogy to the macro / micro brew alcohol works well.


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## Hiddengems (Sep 9, 2021)

Good analogy.

You'll always have the hipsters forcing down ipa's telling a regular guy the Budweiser he loves really tastes bad, he just can't tell.


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## Kindbud421 (Sep 9, 2021)

Hiddengems said:


> Good analogy.
> 
> You'll always have the hipsters forcing down ipa's telling a regular guy the Budweiser he loves really tastes bad, he just can't tell.


I’m not picky, IPA, Bud, Keystone, Busch… not doing Milwaukee’s best or lower grades than that…


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## xtsho (Sep 9, 2021)

Hiddengems said:


> Good analogy.
> 
> You'll always have the hipsters forcing down ipa's telling a regular guy the Budweiser he loves really tastes bad, he just can't tell.


Well I'm no hipster but I refuse to drink Budweiser. 

I'd trade a case of Budweiser for one twelve ounce can of this.


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## HighThere (Sep 9, 2021)

Kindbud421 said:


> Was told by a source in the business that all pre-rolls are just the trim… no bud material at all. And that’s after shaking it for keif


They sure taste like it. I find it amazing that these businesses were basically given a money printing machine and they still can't help fuck people with their greed. It's impressive in the wrong kind of way.


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## Hiddengems (Sep 9, 2021)

xtsho said:


> Well I'm no hipster but I refuse to drink Budweiser.
> 
> I'd trade a case of Budweiser for one twelve ounce can of this.


Personal taste isn't an issue at all. Its telling someone that likes something that it's trash because your "discernment" is at a higher level that's ridiculous.


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## Lockedin (Sep 9, 2021)

I'll say it again - the ops that I've trimmed for are VERY conscientious in their practices.
You also need to understand that:
Not all legal areas / ops have the same practices.
The biggest op I worked for sells dried / cured flower, sugar trim, trim.
-They could have a solid market for hash, but choose to let their workers keep it as a bonus (you should see the end of harvest parties....)
-Their product is lower-top-shelf or upper-mid-shelf -- depending on where you are.
-I like it - pretty good for dispo weed (although I get it before it goes to distribution, then the dispo.

-The owner's personal garden is full of strains that are SPECTACULAR - but for one reason or another (low yield, large variability, etc) are not viable as sellable product.

Farmers have different goals than growers. Both have their place.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 10, 2021)

Hiddengems said:


> Its telling someone that likes something that it's trash because your "discernment" is at a higher level that's ridiculous.


I live in Europe. Budweiser is complete garbage. You could not sell it here.
When it comes to beer, our general discernment is at a higher level, and not because we're better critics, but simply since we have regular access to actual beer (quite the prerequisite for discerning that from non-beer).

Surely there are people who authentically like trash. They will literally eat, drink or smoke pure garbage. It's still garbage.


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## green_machine_two9er (Sep 10, 2021)

Chungayuwoki said:


> I see so many excuses for why store-bought weed sucks. * Legal weed sucks because of who grew it, period. * Everyone in the industry is a clown chasing magic genetics to do all the work for him.
> 
> 
> Get with the times folks. I been growing 18 week sativas on an 10 week schedule since high-school. If you can't figure out how to shorten or extend bloom, go back to the 'newbie' section. There's nothing advanced about total ignorance.


What, you graduated last year..


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## Three Berries (Sep 10, 2021)

I have some Orange Krush about ready. One plant isn't in very good shape looks wise but is heavy with bud. The other is still quite green in the leaves. I may let the latter one go a bit longer past ten weeks. I'm at almost 9 weeks.

I've got two more ready for the 12hr. Today one of them I pinched off all the big fan leaves for a test. tomorrow they go on 12 hr. Best grow so far in maybe 20 or so. Used 1200 w of LED in 3x3x5 tent.


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## ComfortCreator (Sep 10, 2021)

Lockedin said:


> I'll say it again - the ops that I've trimmed for are VERY conscientious in their practices.
> You also need to understand that:
> Not all legal areas / ops have the same practices.
> The biggest op I worked for sells dried / cured flower, sugar trim, trim.
> ...


Great post!

About the owner's garden. 
THAT is what makes all of us here mad, and that is the one cultivator we all think we wish we had as an option. The boutique style cultivator who grows the best for the customers, and charges accordingly and kindly, gently explains why as needed i.e. it is a low yielding killer strain, that's why it's 50% more.

What would the owner say?

Is it really, truly that the market wants good not great? I dont understand why the market hasnt cleared away this half ass sxxx. Only Washington and Oregon have broken through.


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## Lockedin (Sep 10, 2021)

ComfortCreator said:


> Great post!
> 
> About the owner's garden.
> THAT is what makes all of us here mad, and that is the one cultivator we all think we wish we had as an option. The boutique style cultivator who grows the best for the customers, and charges accordingly and kindly, gently explains why as needed i.e. it is a low yielding killer strain, that's why it's 50% more.
> ...


So - the owners having personal gardens of experimental or difficult to grow strains and sharing the product with friends & family bothers you???

Who is your personal garden for?
Or would you agree that farmers can be growers too?

Here's how it plays out.
They try to farm a strain and something's off - low yield - disease prone - inconsistency - etc. and it makes no money. Might even lose money.
Do you stay in the weed business? 
Or do you continue growing that strain and find another job to support your growing hobby...


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 11, 2021)

Lockedin said:


> So - the owners having personal gardens of experimental or difficult to grow strains and sharing the product with friends & family bothers you???
> 
> Who is your personal garden for?
> Or would you agree that farmers can be growers too?


I don't think that is what he wanted to say. At least I did not read it that way.

He says he wished there was a boutique-style cultivator like your boss who would choose to be the "high class outfit" that sells only the top-shelf flower _at an appropriate price_.

I expect this to happen sooner or later in any market that is liberalized enough, and for long enough. At when "mail order" of some kind is possible and risk-free, this boutique-style niche market will become large enough for some high-end sellers to exist.


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## YardG (Sep 11, 2021)

I'm not expecting it to actually turn out ideally, but I'll be curious to see what happens with Vermont's legal market. Thus far it looks like it'll be "small-scale" "craft" producers only, with no large scale cultivation. I used quotes because it isn't clear to me what any of the terms will mean in actuality. They say they'll keep craft licenses accessible, but again, is that actually accessible to most Vermonters, or accessible to farmers with capital and lines of credit (the CBD "Green Rush" didn't turn out so well, and from what I've heard the medicinal market was a mess). Also, what will the actual retailers demand in terms of quality and price. A lot still to be determined.


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## Lockedin (Sep 11, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I don't think that is what he wanted to say. At least I did not read it that way.
> 
> He says he wished there was a boutique-style cultivator like your boss who would choose to be the "high class outfit" that sells only the top-shelf flower _at an appropriate price_.
> 
> I expect this to happen sooner or later in any market that is liberalized enough, and for long enough. At when "mail order" of some kind is possible and risk-free, this boutique-style niche market will become large enough for some high-end sellers to exist.


Probly right.
Guess I've been running hot lately.

One thing (among MANY) I've learned from all of my weed endeavors - generosity.

I usually leave any visit with at least one Mason jar.

I'm PROUD to say that last year was the first time that I returned one of their Mason jars filled with my weed!

My family friends and neighbors all get that from me - I can't think of any tokers that leave my house empty handed.
This is a big part of why I grow!


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## ComfortCreator (Sep 11, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I don't think that is what he wanted to say. At least I did not read it that way.
> 
> He says he wished there was a boutique-style cultivator like your boss who would choose to be the "high class outfit" that sells only the top-shelf flower _at an appropriate price_.
> 
> I expect this to happen sooner or later in any market that is liberalized enough, and for long enough. At when "mail order" of some kind is possible and risk-free, this boutique-style niche market will become large enough for some high-end sellers to exist.


Yes sir this is it.

I understand the owners garden and the economics. I'm saying...OK, if the goal is just to make money as a business sure grow the safe strains that are known to be safe and decent. 

That's how businesses sell commodities...and in many states every dispensary sells the same stuff...they do not differentiate at the cultivator, or dispensary level. It is all the same. That is the problem. That is why we discuss dispensary weed in the negative. It is safely grown well and tends to be the same strains that evolve slowly as new crosses are tried. If like me, you have tried say 50+ strains multiple times at the store -- you realize it's the same, highly addictive (as in fast tolerance building), pretty stuff. It's fun once, maybe twice, and the novelty wears off.

Now there are craft growers, and eventually I hope they will grow the riskier, or longer running strains for a profit. I.e. grow a killer sativa and charge for it. I'm not suggesting grow unstable strains, but they do grow Gorilla Glue successfully dont they? And low yielding strains can be amazing...and nobody grows them at the stores.

One other example is marketing. Who cares if Seth Rogan's bud comes in a pretty jar, with a brochure? THAT is the b.s. branding going on. Nice packaging, sponsored by a stoner! Yet he has no unique strains does he? 

As mentioned above, a critical component is mail-order. There is a difference between growing a strain in Hawaii, California and Oklahoma. 

I'm just saying...surprised the market has yet to have a real, true player who can claim superior product, at a higher price. I could be wrong of course, maybe they do exist.


Lockedin said:


> Probly right.
> Guess I've been running hot lately.
> 
> One thing (among MANY) I've learned from all of my weed endeavors - generosity.
> ...


Hot makes for good discussion! 

I'm fine with greedy capitalism but wish that there were true connoisseur quality buds available from SOMEWHERE besides private growers. That's what I would like to see.


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## Thai St1ck (Sep 11, 2021)

This has been an interesting read.
Being based in Thailand, for the last several years *all* i have been smoking is 100% Thai/Lao/Cambodian Sativa.

Are you telling me there are *zero* 100% Sativa offerings available at dispensaries?


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## DaFreak (Sep 11, 2021)

I think the is nothing wrong with the way people determine the ripeness of the plants by going off of trics. Doesn't mean that people are going to wait for the right timing. But I don'y think you gain anything by letting them go over-ripe.


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## Budzbuddha (Sep 11, 2021)

Looks like Chumbawumba Squarepants got the hammer and disappeared. 
Awaiting his Sock replacement…. Lol


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## ComfortCreator (Sep 11, 2021)

Thai St1ck said:


> This has been an interesting read.
> Being based in Thailand, for the last several years *all* i have been smoking is 100% Thai/Lao/Cambodian Sativa.
> 
> Are you telling me there are *zero* 100% Sativa offerings available at dispensaries?


I have shopped for years and never saw a pure sativa from any dispensary, any state in the USA. Lots of hybrids, always to shorten the plant and its flowering time.


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## Lockedin (Sep 11, 2021)

ComfortCreator said:


> I have shopped for years and never saw a pure sativa from any dispensary, any state in the USA. Lots of hybrids, always to shorten the plant and its flowering time.


The complete lack of any real variety (never mind proper cure / trim, etc.)

And very much to your point - everything seems to be hybrids.
"Sativa leaning, or "indica leaning" --- and they never really are.

May sound weird, but I want a little edge to my sativas- a little bit of "everybody's staring at me" wouldn't hurt.
I want couch lock so deep that I end up a floor down.
Also - I want my nasty terps back - I know skunk #1 is lost (if there was ever much of a true strain) - but I'm looking forward to RoadKill Skunk - I hope it gets LOUD and the neighbors complain....

As far as sativas go - I'm excited to get my Malana seeds in soil - I just need the room, and the time...


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## NORMANREH41 (Sep 12, 2021)

tstick said:


> Yes, it would. But I fear that it would be like having too many cooks in the kitchen unless all the growers were family-related! Eventually, one expert would disagree with the other expert and...well....


I think you guys are onto something. Would love to get some excellent growers together and make that happen. Sooner or later people will catch on and make that happen. I think someone should make an app kind of like this one. That way we could all get together and take over the industry of the weak ass people that don't care about our cannabis


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## NORMANREH41 (Sep 12, 2021)

Millo said:


> What about the effects tho? Did you notice any difference in the high other than smell/taste?


You know the old saying right. If you think it's ready let it go another week. I always go by that and it is one of the best things you could do.


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## Millo (Sep 12, 2021)

NORMANREH41 said:


> You know the old saying right. If you think it's ready let it go another week. I always go by that and it is one of the best things you could do.


Sure. But it doesn't answer the question I asked ZeeeDoc


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## NORMANREH41 (Sep 13, 2021)

Millo said:


> Sure. But it doesn't answer the question I asked ZeeeDoc View attachment 4985977


How about you put your question in your pipe and smoke on it for a little while then you might actually figure out what you need to know.


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## NORMANREH41 (Sep 13, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> What, you graduated last year..


Hey question for you. I think you would no this because you posted this information.
Where do I get boron?
At what week of flowering to add?
How much do I add to a plant that's growing in five gallon buckets?


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## Kellcat2go (Sep 13, 2021)

tstick said:


> My understanding has always been that the flowers are at their peak ripeness when the trichomes become milky with about 20% of them turning amber.
> 
> But when did this become the common ideal?
> 
> ...


Awesome! I'm gonna follow your advise, thanks


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 22, 2021)

I know this isn’t exactly on topic. But to add to wishing there were true cultivars in the dispensary world. I wish that more people would understand the evolution of cannabis and incorporate that knowledge into their grow operation.

One of the projects that I want to start once I get land is to compost a specific soil for each strain. The terpene profile is pulled from the soil overtime. So if you wanted a very blueberry or strawberry flavored plant you would grow blueberry and strawberry bushes and then compost the fruit in different compost bins and then use each for their own strains. However this will take many years to reach its full capability. Ideally you would start with a blueberry or strawberry strain to begin with but you would have to use both male and female plants to induce the genes through many lineages. Most of the seeds that we get are only F1-F3 which is why you see 4+ phenotypes for a “strain”. You won’t actually get a true stability until you are at least at a F7 lineage and that’s only if you were perfect in your breeding. It’s typically more like F9 plus.

In addition I see all these threads about 11/13 versus 12/12 light schedule for flowering or whether you should lower the light cycle later in flower to mimic the sun. I personally use 11/13 but for the most superficial reason as that both numbers are prime and I can say I optimusprimed the flower. But in reality you have to think of the fact that cannabis is highly a highly adaptable plant. If the genetics were grown indoors under 12/12 for many years than it will have adapted to that light schedule. The most common rebuttal I see to the 11/13 ideology and stepping the timer is that there is no “research” to support these claims. But if you read Dutch passions blog on flowering they specifically mention stepping the timer as a good option to decrease flower time. The point I am trying to make is how would you even establish a base like to compare your hypothesis to. If the base genes were already adapted to the “accepted” norm of a 12/12 flower schedule.

However as for hope for the future I have seen at conventions that there are projects where people want to attempt to renaturalize the plant to environment to attempt to recreate the lost landraces since we can now thankfully grow weed legally outdoors in many states. I believe that there are people who want to get back the lost genetics but there are many factors to consider.

I wish I could remember the name of the specific convention talk that I watched so I could post the link, but the talking points were focused on soil makeup, light type, and genetics define the expression of the strain and how DNA mapping has exposed the vast genetic makeup of what is even considered a strain, as no two OG Kushes are the same just because different breeders crossed the “same” strains to make their own OG Kush or Girl Scout Cookies or whatever the current flavor of the month strain is that is in vogue. By my fear from the DNA sequencing is that once weed becomes federally legal what’s going to stop a company like Monsanto from genetically modifying strains and then owning the patent on a weed DNA sequence. Again I can remember the specific video I watched but a company already has a patent on a particular CBD “Charlottes web” type strain that they were able to breed out the cherry tasting terpene profile. So the precedent has already been started for large companies to begin to own the genetics.

I know this doesn’t directly address the original posters question but my two cents is that it is going to be different for every plant and the process of cross breeding/environmental factors that lead to that specific strain are going to cause varying results in ripeness. If the strain is predominately chopped early and they use that strain to make their feminized seeds then most likely the plants genetics will degrade and the plant won’t be able to pushed to full ripeness after many lineages of this practice. We forget that once upon a time the bees and wind where the controlling factors in evolution and from my perspective humans need to quit believing that we are smarter than Gaia “Mother Nature”. Someone who has billions of years worth of knowledge. I mean the AC units alone on large commercial buildings accounts for 10-15% of global warming depending upon the report you read. “Modern convince” has only further alienated humans from nature....

But then again I’m autistic so I think differently than the norm....


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## BullPower (Sep 22, 2021)

Kindbud421 said:


> Was told by a source in the business that all pre-rolls are just the trim… no bud material at all. And that’s after shaking it for keif


Get a couple and cut them open. It hurt my feelings. Lol


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## BullPower (Sep 22, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I expect this to happen sooner or later in any market that is liberalized enough, and for long enough. At when "mail order" of some kind is possible and risk-free, this boutique-style niche market will become large enough for some high-end sellers to exist.


If and when it goes here, that's my plan. It'll be the only way to stand out.


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## Lockedin (Sep 22, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> I know this isn’t exactly on topic. But to add to wishing there were true cultivars in the dispensary world.........



True cultivars in dispensaries ...

I Love the idea!
The catch is that the average toker still shops by THC% - kids just wanna get stoned. (as this and many other threads show).

There was a brand - Henry's, IIRC, that did limited releases that were really nice. I got an eighth of Velvet Purps (very unique terps, etc...) that was pretty incredible - but they seem to have stopped those in favor of more "standard" strains. 

My local growmies and I share seeds & of course product. 
I've said it and will keep saying it:
The worst grower in my group has tastier smoke than ANY of the dozen dispensaries around here.

Everything in the dispensaries has a vague, "weed" smell. Usually a sweet or perfume taste, sometimes berries or citrus <-- None of it has a strong taste or strain-specific effects.

That is another reason I've chosen to grow my own.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 22, 2021)

Lockedin said:


> True cultivars in dispensaries ...
> 
> I Love the idea!
> The catch is that the average toker still shops by THC% - kids just wanna get stoned. (as this and many other threads show).
> ...


Yeah. I agree the average consumer doesn’t know what amazing weed is and sadly most people just look at a number that doesn’t mean much. Sometimes I watch shows like growers network just to look at how large scale grow operations work. I remember watching one on Kings in California and they claimed to have a strain that tested over 40% THC and almost 50% total cannabanoids, which isn’t even possible. But they are a public company with deep pockets that pays labs to cheat the numbers. I mean if you cut off just the outside of the nug you can skew the results. But they also claimed to not grow anything that doesn’t have an 8 week flower. If it’s not 8 weeks they throw it out.

However if I’m out of my own stuff I don’t mind grabbing an ounce of the B bulk buds for $100. Is it my favorite no, but for the cost it will get me through until I have more of my own.

I think the problem is that in such a saturated market it’s hard to differentiate yourself on a commercial scale. I mean there are small boutiques that care about their product, but typically they only grow enough to stock their own dispensary. So unless you are lucky enough to live by such a place, your better off just growing your own. But I think that’s the greater message of this thread. Finding something that you like at the ripeness that you like is all that matters. I’ve been buying regular seeds whenever I get a chance just so I have stuff to breed with later in life. But it’s funny how even Dutch companies are carrying “American genetics” because a name is more important than the product in today’s day and age.

Not to be devils advocate but at most dispensaries you are looking at a flower that is behind glass, so what’s a company to do to get their stuff to sell? All the consumer has is a name, a thc %, and a glance at the buds to decide. No smell test no smoke test sample. So if you have a 12% THC stain that tastes like the nectar of the gods, how are you going to convince people to buy it. I mean you can give samples to the dispensary workers as motivation for them to push your product, but what happens in 3-6 months when all those employees quit? Do you have to keep pimping your product to the resellers and even then how much information can you get the employee to remember when most are in their young twenties.

believe me I wish I had the land and money to start my own boutique shop. I would only use rosin as an extract and train bees to create my honeys. But that’s me as I prefer organic with no chemicals. I taste the chemicals in hydro the second I hit it and I hate that flavor. Flushing doesn’t get rid of that chemical flavor regardless of what people claim.

But I look at cannabis the same way Jet li looks at tea in the movie fearless...


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## Milky Weed (Sep 22, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Yeah. I agree the average consumer doesn’t know what amazing weed is and sadly most people just look at a number that doesn’t mean much. Sometimes I watch shows like growers network just to look at how large scale grow operations work. I remember watching one on Kings in California and they claimed to have a strain that tested over 40% THC and almost 50% total cannabanoids, which isn’t even possible. But they are a public company with deep pockets that pays labs to cheat the numbers. I mean if you cut off just the outside of the nug you can skew the results. But they also claimed to not grow anything that doesn’t have an 8 week flower. If it’s not 8 weeks they throw it out.
> 
> However if I’m out of my own stuff I don’t mind grabbing an ounce of the B bulk buds for $100. Is it my favorite no, but for the cost it will get me through until I have more of my own.
> 
> ...


5.0% terps is more believable but still very very high. 50% would be a wet nug.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 22, 2021)

Milky Weed said:


> 5.0% terps is more believable but still very very high. 50% would be a wet nug.


here is the video if you want to watch it. But I guess they said it was 44% and only 8 weeks of flower for their strain GMO


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## Lockedin (Sep 22, 2021)

I am blessed to live in Socal- there are over a dozen dispensaries, and even more delivery services within 3 miles of my pad.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dispo weed - it works, and there is still something very cool about walking up to a counter full of legal weed products.

I'm not a great grower - I'm proof that following direction begets great weed.
My weed blows the dispensaries out of the water. 
I cashed in a bunch of loyalty points on a high end ounce a while ago --- still paid too much --- and the ounce was just "good".


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 22, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> I think the problem is that in such a saturated market it’s hard to differentiate yourself on a commercial scale.


It is the same in all mass markets. Cannabis is not different, why would it?

A comparison to the wine market is apt. Depending on where you live, it's almost impossible to get a bad wine anymore. It is certainly the case where I live. And still, there is excellence lurking on the shelves, and it's NOT determined by price; but you have no way of finding out, unless you go to special wine stores that let you try before buying.



Slartibart4242 said:


> Not to be devils advocate but at most dispensaries you are looking at a flower that is behind glass, so what’s a company to do to get their stuff to sell? All the consumer has is a name, a thc %, and a glance at the buds to decide. No smell test no smoke test sample.


Here is where the Netherlands are quite different. The places where you can buy flower are the same places where people chill out to smoke it. It is very unfortunate that apparently that is not possible in NA dispensaries.



Slartibart4242 said:


> Do you have to keep pimping your product to the resellers and even then how much information can you get the employee to remember when most are in their young twenties.


It is probably not due to their young age but because they're blazing a lot.



Slartibart4242 said:


> I taste the chemicals in hydro the second I hit it and I hate that flavor. Flushing doesn’t get rid of that chemical flavor regardless of what people claim.


That flushing would change the flavour is a ridiculous notion. It has been demonstrated that it is not true. The plant accumulates the nutrients over months, how would flushing for a few days change the plant chemistry in a significant way?

It's probably possible to get quite close to organic with hydro if you have the right fertilizers. Probably to the point where most people won't know the difference. It is really complex though, very difficult for the companies who are supposed to make the fertilizers to create a convincing product. And then, you're in the realm of marketing and myths once more, where the growers do not have a good way to find the products that work.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 22, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Here is where the Netherlands are quite different. The places where you can buy flower are the same places where people chill out to smoke it. It is very unfortunate that apparently that is not possible in NA dispensaries.


Hey I’m not trying to spread misinformation so I should clarify:

In the US it varies state to state, and you have to remember that technically weed is still illegal on a federal level and classified as a schedule 1 Drug. In my state there are dispensaries that do have a smoking room, but the dispensary has to apply for an additional license and pay an additional fee to allow smoking on the premise, so it’s not the norm but the exception.

I do hope that more places eventually have a smoke room, but with COVID and everything going on in the world it will probably be a while before this becomes the norm where I live. Mask mandates and social distancing regulations seem to be changing every week, so If I get stuff from a dispensary I usually find myself using the app weedmaps and literally selecting the weed through the app by just looking at pictures and then the bud tender brings out the order to the car.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> then the bud tender brings out the order to the car


This is so bizarre from my point of view .

Drive-through weed. Welcome to America!


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

With regards to smoking where you buy: in Europe there is a non-smoking policy in many countries that applies to restaurants and bars. The Netherlands have an exemption for _coffee shops. _Quite extraordinary in my eyes, not sure if that would go through where I live (if weed was even legal, which it still is not).

I think if you want to run a boutique-style dispensary, it would be mandatory to allow "sampling" on the premise (i.e. have a smoking room or attached coffeeshop-style bar); much like wine-tasting stores where you can then buy the wine.


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## ComfortCreator (Sep 23, 2021)

Ah my Euro friend, don't underestimate the laziness of our people here. It's insulting that you think the drive thru is crazy...brother we have delivery! Why drive if someone else will do it and you can pay them? Our entire economy is based upon the idea that the more money you have the less you, yourself, have to do!

I'm sure there are services that will pick which kinds for you too, gosh forbid you might have to think. Lol.

Sure there are some medical patients who benefit from delivery but don't kid yourself, cannabis isnt some life saving medicine they cant do without. 

Nobody beats the USA for lazy innovations.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

ComfortCreator said:


> It's insulting that you think the drive thru is crazy...brother we have delivery!


It does not surprise me that there is a drive-through. Cars are indispensable in NA, understandable considering the low-density population. It is quite different here. I have never owned a car in my life (I'm 44 now), and I do not plan to buy one. Young people in cities do not even get a driver's license (it costs 2k to get one where I live)!
Of course in more rural areas it gets inconvenient without a car, but in cities you often do not need one.
We use bicycles as a standard mode of transportation. In the Netherlands... it's almost a given.
Electric bicycles have months-long waiting lists if you want to buy one.

As far as delivery goes: I actually think it is a good development. It's very bad that Amazon basically owns that market, but in general I like it. It's more economical to have the stuff delivered to you instead of getting in a car, driving a fair distance, shopping around for hours and maybe return empty handed.

With regards to delivery the situation here is not much different from NA I guess. A little more regulated (e.g. no Uber, their business model is illegal here for good reasons IMO), but still prevalent.



ComfortCreator said:


> Nobody beats the USA for lazy innovations.


Not a bad thing in itself, as long as it's environmentally friendly. Sadly, most of these "innovations" are either to promote consumerism (decidedly not eco-friendly) or to control people in a more general sense.


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## Lockedin (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> This is so bizarre from my point of view .
> 
> Drive-through weed. Welcome to America!


You should try online delivery!
It's just like the '80's - some dude pulls up in front of the house, I bring cash to his window, he hands me a paper bag full of weed!


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> We use bicycles as a standard mode of transportation. In the Netherlands... it's almost a given. Electric bicycles have months-long waiting lists if you want to buy one.
> 
> Not a bad thing in itself, as long as it's environmentally friendly. Sadly, most of these "innovations" are either to promote consumerism (decidedly not eco-friendly) or to control people in a more general sense.


Well don’t group all Americans in the same boat... I am a person that prefers to walk or ride my bike over driving. However I grew up in Germany at a young age, so thankfully I got to view more of the world than just the USA. There are a lot of green initiatives as well, being the weed initiative... federally the government has mandated that electric cars are the norm by 2030. So right now many states are getting incentives to build out the infrastructure to support electric cars. I mean just yesterday I was reading how a politician in my state is trying to introduce induction charging for the roads so that cars charge while driving (anyone play the video game F-Zero? Lol) and Elon Musk has a $100 million grant competition for innovators to propose solutions to remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Plus we can thank Tesla Motors for restarting the electric car initiative. Yes Elon Musk is South African, but he took over the company from two Americans in California who had the idea to use Nikolai Tesla’s electric motor and put it in a car which led the foundation for the electric car movement. Almost every car manufacture now has a prototype of their own electric car to be released in the next year or two. I do agree that as a whole many US corporations completely disregard their environmental impact. It’s easier and cheaper for them to just pay fines. But there are initiatives to get this to change. But I believe I pointed out in my first post in this thread that people don’t even think about how modern conveniences like A/C raise the ambient temperature of the Earth. Plus more people are considering solar power for the home electricity. So hopefully 10 years down the road we are charging our cars at home using solar and having zero carbon emissions.

In major cities there are lots of people who use their bikes to get around. But there were also people who would look at me cross when they found out I would sometimes walk a mile or more to get groceries and the walk back home, but I also had a Whole Foods across the street from where I lived. So that was the secondary grocery store I would go to that was on the other side of the lake. But when I lived in that state they only had medical weed at the time. Granted with medical weed you could get 1G carts for a $1. And weed was decriminalized to the point where you could have 1.5 ounces in your trunk and it was only a $200 fine, but you couldn’t have more than a 1.5 grams in the front of your car. So enough for a blunt or joint lol. America is weird. But you have to look at it more like it’s the EU where every state is it’s own country. Very different state to state and from town to town. Like magic mushrooms are only legal in certain towns in my state, not state wide.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Well don’t group all Americans in the same boat...


I don't.

Some of them are Portlandians, after all.



Slartibart4242 said:


> However I grew up in Germany at a young age


Me, too; but I've never been to NA. Would not mind visiting the US and Canada, but I'm strictly opposed to air travel for leisure, so it's probably never going to happen.



Slartibart4242 said:


> Plus we can thank Tesla Motors for restarting the electric car initiative. Yes Elon Musk is South African, but he took over the company from two Americans in California who had the idea to use Nikolai Tesla’s electric motor and put it in a car which led the foundation for the electric car movement.


Whoa. Whoa. Hold your horses.

I mean, nothing against Musk (or Nikolai Tesla), one a daring entrepreneur, the other a visionary inventor.

But neither did Tesla invent the electric motor, nor did Musk invent the electric car (or restart an initiative; there never has been an initiative). As is well-known by now, electric cars did exist in the early 1900s.

What Musk did was make the electric car sexy. He took the ball and just ran with it; that's his thing. The car that he made was not reasonable nor economical, but it showed what's possible if you're ready to spend the money.

Traditional car makers had no interest in making e-cars, or start any "initiatives", not because they couldn't make those cars, but because it did not make sense for them economically before politics stepped in.

Elon Musk is an interesting personality, but he's also pretty nuts. He's just "driven", as they say, and not always in a good way.

"We'll be on Mars in 2025."
Sure, buddy.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> But neither did Tesla invent the electric motor, nor did Musk invent the electric car (or restart an initiative; there never has been an initiative). As is well-known by now, electric cars did exist in the early 1900s.
> 
> What Musk did was make the electric car sexy. He took the ball and just ran with it; that's his thing. The car that he made was not reasonable nor economical, but it showed what's possible if you're ready to spend the money.
> 
> ...


I never said Elon Musk invented the electric car. I said that two guys from California RE-started the initiative, but more importantly perfected the vision of an electric car in the modern age. Elon bought into the company a year and a half into the project and through a court case became a “founder” of the company. He is a great business man and I agree a little different, but he operates on the autistic spectrum as well. For a realize autistic mind we operate on a quantum level meaning our brains feel the energy of the world around us, and Nikolai Tesla believed that to understand the secrets of the universe one must understand resonance and dissonance. The irony is that Elon Musk doesn’t realize the full vision of Nikolai’s understanding of physics but ironically has a company called Tesla. Because if he did he would not be building solar panels or reusable rocket engines to get to space...

The point i was trying to make is that I think that there are humans on earth looking for change in a positive direction. I just don’t want to change this thread into a political thread.

When my original points were that ripeness should be determined by the individual user and that there is going to be a lot of variability between genetics due to many factors that are the result of prohibition and commercialization. It would be hard to think of a baseline to compare to for an experiment, but with more time to think I guess you could if you found a true landrace that hasn’t been evolved by human hands, testing a lighting schedule that more mimics nature. I just don’t know if there are any genetic lines in seed form that were only ever grown outside at this point. I personally use different intervals and step my lights down later in flower. If you have the luxury of being able to do enough plants to clone I would personally test with a few different clones. 

I just don’t think that anyone can for definitive say that there is a “perfect” ripeness time, when that answer will be different for everyone. I’ve had good weed and I’ve had amazing weed, but so long as I get high and I am enjoying myself, well than I can’t tell you I had bad weed.

just play around with your genetics, they are our little girls and boys and don’t be afraid to try something more unconventional as innovation wasn’t discovered through following the norm.

I am currently composting blueberry just to start my process of organic terpene enhancement for a blueberry strain. Trying to be eco friendly in my organic grow schedule. I also use mushroom mycelium as my CO2 generators. Once you have spores and a few mason jars, all you need is whole oats and water to make CO2 for years for less than $15. No machines. Just soil, compost, and water. Plus I have a LED light. Can’t get more eco-friendly than that.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Once you have spores and a few mason jars, all you need is whole oats and water to make CO2 for years for less than $15. No machines. Just soil, compost, and water. Plus I have a LED light. Can’t get more eco-friendly than that.


Let's pick some nits then .

If you use bottled CO2 instead of generating more yourself, that's already more eco-friendly.

But seriously, I like your organic approach. And unironically your postings here are very interesting and thought-provoking. (Not so sure about the autistic quantum-minds, however.)


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Let's pick some nits then .
> 
> If you use bottled CO2 instead of generating more yourself, that's already more eco-friendly.
> 
> But seriously, I like your organic approach. And unironically your postings here are very interesting and thought-provoking. (Not so sure about the autistic quantum-minds, however.)


How is that more eco-friendly?


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> How is that more eco-friendly?


Bottled CO2 is not made to-be-bottled. Usually a by-product of fertilizer production or natural gas power plants.

If you create additional CO2 at home (by whatever means), that's a net negative from a climate impact perspective.

And it does not matter at all... I was just nit-picking for fun.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Bottled CO2 is not made to-be-bottled. Usually a by-product of fertilizer production or natural gas power plants.
> 
> If you create additional CO2 at home (by whatever means), that's a net negative from a climate impact perspective.
> 
> And it does not matter at all... I was just nit-picking for fun.


My counter argument to your statement is that the amount of greenhouse gasses which are produced from the shipping and distribution of bottled CO2 will be much greater than the amount of CO2 created in a DIY-type home CO2 generator.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 23, 2021)

So I am using Mycelium which is the producer of mushrooms. The mushroom is just the fruiting body of mycelium. The mushrooms produce spores which combine to replicate. So the whole oats are the food for the mycelium and well mushrooms are 85-95% water. So the oats have to be wet for the spores to feed and grow. Mycelium breathe Air oxygen like humans and exhales CO2. The plants capture the CO2 and exhale oxygen. It’s a closed system using the exact way that nature breaths. How can you be any more organic than that? To get more food for the mycelium you reuse the same glass mason jars you used before and make more food and put it in with a chunk of the mycelium from before and it continues the cycle and you fruit the oyster mushrooms, lions mane, or mistake mushrooms. So you then use the mushrooms to cook and don’t have to support a product that’s mass produced and driven and frozen and thawed through the commercial produce market. The spent mycelium and grain becomes compost to start creating your future soil. Mychorzial additives are the best additions to nature soils. They are the best nutrient supplicant to plants roots. If you add azomite to your soil the mycelium will break down the rocks and minerals into bioavailable nutrients. It’s a zero waste 100% recyclable process.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> My counter argument to your statement is that the amount of greenhouse gasses which are produced from the shipping and distribution of bottled CO2 will be much greater than the amount of CO2 created in a DIY-type home CO2 generator.


And that's exactly correct and I was hoping/expecting somebody would point that out.



Slartibart4242 said:


> The plants capture the CO2


Yes, and if you stop here, you have removed some CO2 from the atmosphere. If you re-introduce the CO2, you're net-negative climate wise (compared to the other scenario).


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 23, 2021)

Fun fact: plants take in CO2 when they photosynthesize, and release CO2 as they respire


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> Fun fact: plants take in CO2 when they photosynthesize, and release CO2 as they respire


Just a fun fact or in any way relevant to the nitpicking?


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Just a fun fact or in any way relevant to the nitpicking?


It's actually an important fact, because the common belief is that plants take in CO2 and release Oxygen, which really misses a big part of the picture. The reality is that the plants take in a lot of CO2 during the day, but they don't use it all, and then it's released at night. It's not a zero sum game.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

Yes, and it's not relevant. Because we're talking about plants that have stored CO2 which is either to be released back or not.
It has nothing to do with living plants perspirating.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Yes, and it's not relevant. Because we're talking about plants that have stored CO2 which is either to be released back or not.
> It has nothing to do with living plants perspirating.


Not relevant eh. OK then. Hmm, I thought you wanted to "pick some nits", but apparently only ones you deem relevant. GTFO dude.



ComputerSaysNo said:


> Let's pick some nits then .


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 23, 2021)

If you grow plants that capture CO2, you have removed CO2 from the atmosphere. The magic word here is "capture".

Dead plant matter contains captured CO2. That's why using peat is not environmentally friendly, because peat mosses need to be kept alive as CO2 storage.

Releasing the CO2 from a plant by using it to generate CO2 for growing is not eco-friendly. Strictly speaking.

In the grand scheme it makes a difference of exactly fuck-all. But that's not the point when nit-picking.

I can do this forever, I actually enjoy it.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 23, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> If you grow plants that capture CO2, you have removed CO2 from the atmosphere. The magic word here is "capture".


Yes, you have "captured the CO2", often only temporarily, as it may be released during respiration within the same 24-hour period in which it was captured.







Enjoy.


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## Rob206 (Sep 23, 2021)

Great info.


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## Cannabis Jack (Sep 24, 2021)

I will just let mine grow a bit old then , Harvested an older one recently all milky white tricomes seemed to stay white for long time never turned amber


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 25, 2021)

Cannabis Jack said:


> I will just let mine grow a bit old then , Harvested an older one recently all milky white tricomes seemed to stay white for long time never turned amber


yeah but that purple flower is gorgeous!!!


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 25, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> If you grow plants that capture CO2, you have removed CO2 from the atmosphere. The magic word here is "capture".
> 
> Dead plant matter contains captured CO2. That's why using peat is not environmentally friendly, because peat mosses need to be kept alive as CO2 storage.
> 
> ...


I came across this fun video you might be interested. Around the 2-minute mark they talk about how they harvest CO2 from their emissions to use on the plants:


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 25, 2021)

Definitely an interesting find but they are capturing off of a gas powered generator. And invested $35 million into their greenhouse farm. Way more capital than I have lol. But have you looked into geothermal powered greenhouses?

the video below is the base design that I would want to use once I buy land for a farm. The guy is able to grow oranges in the winter... which would allow me to grow all my fruits from my composts soils for the different strains. There are many options to be more eco-friendly and using ground heat is a great way to use the earth as the heating element for your farm. I believe it’s 8 feet underground the earth is around 55-60 degrees. So it provides cooling in the summer and heat in the winter. For the winter the greenhouse effect plus the ground heat can keep temperatures 70-80 degrees which is perfect to keep plants alive. Plus I liked how he used the backside of the greenhouse as a reflector on the north side to shine the sun rays down into the greenhouse and increase the light penetration.


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## Milky Weed (Sep 25, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Definitely an interesting find but they are capturing off of a gas powered generator. And invested $35 million into their greenhouse farm. Way more capital than I have lol. But have you looked into geothermal powered greenhouses?
> 
> the video below is the base design that I would want to use once I buy land for a farm. The guy is able to grow oranges in the winter... which would allow me to grow all my fruits from my composts soils for the different strains. There are many options to be more eco-friendly and using ground heat is a great way to use the earth as the heating element for your farm. I believe it’s 8 feet underground the earth is around 55-60 degrees. So it provides cooling in the summer and heat in the winter. For the winter the greenhouse effect plus the ground heat can keep temperatures 70-80 degrees which is perfect to keep plants alive. Plus I liked how he used the backside of the greenhouse as a reflector on the north side to shine the sun rays down into the greenhouse and increase the light penetration.


That is fascinating, and seemingly easy to do it yourself if you have a buddy with a backhoe! Well maybe not easy, but cost efficient.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 27, 2021)

tstick said:


> My understanding has always been that the flowers are at their peak ripeness when the trichomes become milky with about 20% of them turning amber. . .
> . . . Based on this, I don't believe it's a good idea for the personal-use ops growers to use the same criteria as the industry uses...because the industry doesn't care about putting out ripe marijuana.
> 
> Thoughts?


I hear's ya, tstic, and I fully understand and appreciate where you're going with this. <two thumbs up>

I'm a wannabe botanist, and just love looking at and learning about trichomes and terpene production, especially if there's some sort of definitive correlation between colour ratio <> to potency (or some other, pleasurable attribute that we would like to achieve) that can be determined.

The problem is that there are just too many variables, too many cannabis strains (with a plethora of new cross-strains popping up every year), each with their own unique attributes, to consider.

Then there's the big elephant-in-the-room problem of Subjectivity. Average potency, to a newbie, might blow his mind, where average potency to a very experienced, long term user is just that: Average. Everyone else will lay somewhere along the spectrum line.

So, ok, then the answer is that we get "_qualified_" users to perform our assessments. A "Cannabis Sommelier", Yes? But then that brings up the whole "Panel" issue (think Master Distillers, where a panel of 3 legendary moonshiner hosts, - along with Tickle, judge 3 contestants each week on how well they craft and distill a unique type of popular alcohol product: - whisky, vodka, rum, gin, etc. - awesome show) . They always end up choosing a final winner, but they each vary widely on their assessment of quality and taste of the 'shine.

It would therefore be no different if we assembled a distinguished panel of our own, legendary Rollitup-ians. (but then, i can just see a post with 15K threads, in one week, all arguing and fighting over who should be on that distinguished panel.) _lmfao _

And then there's the question of How Many? A panel of 3? 6? or even 10, you say should do the trick? Sorry, not even close. Even with 10 panelists, the quality, taste, potency assessments, will vary too greatly in order to come up with any reliable statistics. To get reliable information from any sample collection, you need a data set of at least 1,000 samples, or in this case, 1,000 qualified panelists, each giving their personal assessment.

Note: At least room for 1,000 nominated panelists should narrow down the bickering in the post, quite a bit. _lmao _

The end data result will then be what's called a Bell Curve Normal Distribution, which looks to be quit a varied, all over the bloody map, F'n sampling, I agree, but out of that curve, you get what's called a Mean distribution, and Standard deviation points. This is too complicated to get into here, but the data collected then falls into a mathematically reliable pattern, that when repeated again with another different group of 1,000 panelist, becomes amazingly, and almost identicle in comparison with the first graph. And, if you increase the number of panelists by a factor of 10, and now have 10,000, the bell curve would, again, look and be amazing and remarkably the same. In other words, the original assessment data of 1,000 panalist becomes a very reliable representation of the larger population (all of us other folk in Rollitup), and therefore can become a very reliable predictor.

(keeping in mind that, as mentioned, this theoretical exercise has only been for *one *strain, so far, which will have to be assessed multiple times for each of the different quantitative grow lengths that are being discussed and submitted in this post: Clear; Cloudy; 30% Amber; 60% Amber and 90-100% amber, AND for each of the subjective quality assessments. That's 150-180 assessments, depending on how many qualitative tests you want to include.)

Now that's one hell of an undertaking (1,000 panelists, each performing 5 different quantitative assessments, on, what? 6-7 different qualitative assessments?) man, count me out of that nomination.

However, i'm not finished yet. . .

In another post, i jokingly exaggerated that _"I'm targeting to reach 73.648% amber thricomes, per square 1,000 nano-meter, across a random sampling of 7.3 Caylx's, taken off of the tertiary stem._"

this may be an absolutely ridiculous statement, as was intended, but it brings up an extremely valid point and question: Just how do you actually quantify and go about doing such a measurement?

There would therefore have to be some sort of established Standard that everyone would have to follow, and, in trying to establish such a Standard, i can just anticipate it taking 10+ years of specialists and experts and wannabe experts, all arguing over how the sample is to be counted, from where on the plant is the best place(s) to take the count from, how the count is to be analysed, what colour values or hues (digital values? or hand/visual colour pallet comparison?) determines what consititutes an "Amber" colour, or how clear does a trich have to be of terpenes or impurities to determine it's Clearity value?. . . you get the picture.

The point I'm trying to make here, is that we would all like to be able to look at trichomes and say "*Ah Ha! * I'm at 60% amber, which will give me a super potent, couch-lock high, with the perfect ratio of lemonene and black forest pine aromas. I will therefore harvest the plant now."

But in reality, you "guessed-chopped" at what you thought might'a been 60%, which you then subjectively proclaimed to produced the perfect super potent, couch-lock high, with the perfect ratio of lemonene and black forest pine aromas. Your whole exercise was just that, nothing more than a subjective _guess_.

"_Well. . . that's just like. . . your assessment, man_."
- The Dude

*PS*
Also, at time of this writing, a new issue just popped up today (which perfectly exemplifies exactly what i've just been tlaking about), that i never even knew existed or considered until right now: _*The eye vs. Science.* _

I therefore submit the following for review:

if you look at the following pictures, you would be reasonably correct in assuming that the trichomes are 100% Cloudy (i'm in at 19 weeks, and today just completed 8 weeks of bloom. Note: i also used a 30x Jewelers Loupe, looking at many buds on the plant, and i could not see one amber trichome, and just about nil clear trichomes,, so i was very confident that i was making a good, over-all assessment.)







I therefore secateured a branch this morning and labeled it 100% Cloudy, for assessment. I therefore plan on continue doing the same when the amber ratio reaches around 30%, again at 60%, and if i'm lucky on whether my plant can weather das Kanadian weather for another 2 weeks (Avoid Alliteration Always ), then final harvest close to around 90/100%.

When done, i should therefore be able to come up with a very good quality assessment by trying out and comparing each of the difference trichome colour ratios. Yes? So far, so good.

BUT! . . when I put samples of today's cuttings under the microscope, i saw a completely different picture. What were by all initial indications perfect, 100% cloudy samples , turned out to be 100% clear. *WTF???*  That's one big F'n, unreliable assessment difference.








So which method are we supposed to be using? eyeballing it, or do we now need to relay on scientific instruments to perform our measurements? And if scientific, that means everyone will need to purchase a scope if they want to achieve any reasonable level of accuracy and confidence. And if that is the case, then let us all stop beating around the cannabis bush and just get it over with and buy a Spectrometer to perform a chemical analysis, and be done with it. 

So, again, my point being, is that we here, in this thread, are trying to determine just what roll trichome colour ratios play in terms of overall quality, potency, etc., and we would all very much like for that information to be a "reasonably accurate" indicator of when to cut the plant down. but, just how are we going to accomplish this when the information on thricohomes that we use to judge when a plant is ready, is soooo damn variable and subjective and unreliable.

as you can see, we all still have a long way to go.


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## HGCC (Sep 28, 2021)

Lol, this thread drifted like political threads. 

I let some sativas go over the winter on a windowsill to get some seeds to finish. It was fantastic weed, had come around to start reveg by the time I took them down.

Generally I just look at the weed to determine if it's done, buds should uhhh look like buds. 

I dont think you will ever see true sativas in the shop. They are harder to grow and will take longer, often they don't taste that good or have the look people expect. Given that I have never seen well done easy to grow stuff, it's a stretch to think they could grow harder sativas well. I wouldn't have a problem with it costing twice as much, since it takes twice as long, but it really doesn't make business sense and I get why it doesn't get offered.


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## ComfortCreator (Sep 28, 2021)

The best growers grow the best cannabis. 

It is that simple, and complicated, in one short sentence. 

30 years ago, I had never seen or tried anything quite like the bud grown in the Netherlands. It was bright, gorgeous yarn looking stuff, perfectly grown, dried, cured, and smuggled one way or the other to the USA. The best versions were shipped so as not to be harmed on a person carrying it and hiding it. 

THAT, at the time, stood out and was a true standard. So good in fact that although I havent had bud from there in likely 15 years now, it still stands out to me.

There was pride, expertise, genetics and THE BEST GROWERS at that time. It seemed amazingly pricey and was well worth it compared to others. Maybe $10-$20/g or so if I remember correctly? 

There is so much mediocre because there are so many mediocre growers. Politics in the US at least, allows it. Limited numbers of cultivators either set by law or high barriers to entry allows it. If you have the cash to try and play, mediocre will sell.

As mentioned several times, quality even in the stores is not really set by price! They almost never know, or care what is "best" in the stores. "This", whatever it is that day, is what they sell. And what the consumers buy. 

The REAL reason imo that we dont have a premium market is again, it is not nationally legal in the US. So that again allows mediocre to reign. The best grower cant grow an unlimited supply to ship around...no, the market doesnt allow that. And the AVERAGE consumer who goes in a store is not necessarily looking to get the very best available! Some are...but not enough yet.

In America, brands are what used to be trusted. We have sold out most of that too sadly, but that is how it will happen eventually.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 28, 2021)

ComfortCreator said:


> It seemed amazingly pricey and was well worth it compared to others. Maybe $10-$20/g or so if I remember correctly?


That should still be the going rate as of today. Incidentally it's also the going BM rate (rather towards $12 for the "average consumer").

The Netherlands have never formally "legalized" weed nationally. Even today it is only "tolerated". The coffee shops and the growers are mostly boutique outfits, they can charge a good price and it's worth their while producing quality.

I'm pretty sure that many of them are still very proud of those achievements and they will not compromise on quality for that reason alone.

With all the stuff that got smuggled out of the country, it's probably not "the fire" all the time. We've always liked "Dutch weed" when we supposed it was actually from NL, but certainly nothing beats the stuff you can buy in the coffee shops (or rather "could buy", because selling to foreigners is no longer allowed).


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## ComfortCreator (Sep 28, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> That should still be the going rate as of today. Incidentally it's also the going BM rate (rather towards $12 for the "average consumer").
> 
> The Netherlands have never formally "legalized" weed nationally. Even today it is only "tolerated". The coffee shops and the growers are mostly boutique outfits, they can charge a good price and it's worth their while producing quality.
> 
> ...


Wow the timing of cutting off foreigners seems crazy, but I did see lots of news reports of huge amounts crossing the border there. 

Kind of goes with our discussion...the Dutch have brillant engineers, and in plant horticulture they have some top minds. They should embrace it and become a "Canna" country and dominate. Instead they bow to politics and other countries resentment of their advanced capabilities.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 28, 2021)

The "cutting off" already happened some years ago. The political situation in EU is complex, because things like Cannabis legalization are not harmonized.

When a country like NL goes "quasi-legal", and the neighbouring countries do not, you will of course have a lot of BM smuggling happening. That will make said neighbours unhappy and the Dutch government has to react.

The Netherlands are right in the center of Europe, and it's a small country. They'd rather spent their resources elsewhere than fighting Cannabis smuggling.

Spain is now "quasi-legal", too, but they have far fewer EU borders (or countries close to them) than the Netherlands; I'm pretty sure there's plenty of smuggling out of Spain into, say, France now. Also, in the Spanish system there are no "coffee shops", only "private clubs" that exist due to a loop hole in the law. You cannot legally buy there unless you are a "club member".

Domestic growing has also dramatically increased over the past 10-15 years, but of course the weed produced is not the same as what you get in Dutch boutiques.

I buy hardly any flower because I consume so little of it, but when I talk to friends who partake a lot, they never know where the product actually comes from, they usually know the strains though. That is a clear sign to me that it's "home-grown" right here, and their supplier is the direct middle man.

Mind you I'm not an expert on the BM here, but many aspects are just very obvious when you think about it. Growing domestically is just a lot less risky than smuggling.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 28, 2021)

I love Dutch genetics and when I do buy seeds I always get from the Netherlands. Usually from Nirvana Seeds because they are great genetics for the price. However you don’t see people running the classic White/Black Widows, Northern Lights, or Super Silver Hazes anymore. 

However one of the best things to ever happen to US genetics is the opening of The Pharm in Arizona. Sjoerd Broeks from the Flying Dutchman is using massive greenhouses to test and stabilize genetics for many of the top breeders in the USA. Apparently he is typically growing out 500 plus seeds of the same strain to search for the phenotypes to breed with. Plus since they are using greenhouses they aren’t evolving the genetics to indoor lighting. If you are bored I’d read the article or watch the video I posted below.









Flight of the Dutchman


The Pharm’s Sjoerd Broeks (formerly of The Flying Dutchmen seed company) combines world-class genetics, high-tech systems, robots and glass-house growing in Arizona’s medical market.




www.cannabisbusinesstimes.com


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

ComfortCreator said:


> the Dutch have brillant engineers, and in plant horticulture they have some top minds. They should embrace it and become a "Canna" country and dominate. Instead *they bow to politics and other countries resentment of their advanced capabilities*.


This needs another comment, I feel.

Not sure what you mean by "they bow to politics". If Cannabis is illegal, there's not much "bowing" to do; you cannot grow it commercially then.

Also I don't think other countries "resent" the capabilities of the Dutch, and therefore make Cannabis illegal. It has nothing to do with that. The Netherlands is a quasi-legal country for historical reasons that have not much to do with their horticultural tradition. That's just a lucky coincidence.

If Cannabis was legalized across the EU, nobody would mind getting the good stuff from NL. Nobody would resent them for being "the best" in EU in that area.

Economically the EU is one country. The idea behind the European Union is economical, not political. As long as you buy from another EU country, you're buying "domestically", the money stays at home, so to speak. Surely European nations compete with each other, but not in the sense that we compete with the US or China.


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## HGCC (Sep 29, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> I love Dutch genetics and when I do buy seeds I always get from the Netherlands. Usually from Nirvana Seeds because they are great genetics for the price. However you don’t see people running the classic White/Black Widows, Northern Lights, or Super Silver Hazes anymore.
> 
> However one of the best things to ever happen to US genetics is the opening of The Pharm in Arizona. Sjoerd Broeks from the Flying Dutchman is using massive greenhouses to test and stabilize genetics for many of the top breeders in the USA. Apparently he is typically growing out 500 plus seeds of the same strain to search for the phenotypes to breed with. Plus since they are using greenhouses they aren’t evolving the genetics to indoor lighting. If you are bored I’d read the article or watch the video I posted below.
> 
> ...


Cool stuff, visiting the flying Dutchman was one the highlights of going to Amsterdam. Really interested in what they come out with. I am pretty fond of Dutch weed.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Apparently he is typically growing out 500 plus seeds of the same strain to search for the phenotypes to breed with.


From how I read the article, he's not even breeding, they are going to these lengths to find the best mothers for the crops they're selling.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> From how I read the article, he's not even breeding, they are going to these lengths to find the best mothers for the crops they're selling.


that’s why I included the video where he explains more of what they are doing.... but I may have misunderstood... I smoke a lot of pot...


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## HGCC (Sep 29, 2021)

Well damn.


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## myke (Sep 29, 2021)

I have a small outdoor plant that flower started on June 21,light dep.Shes now day 91.Have grown her indoors several times but never going past 70 days. Cloudy is all I would get.Checked a few days ago and its about 10% amber.Took a sample will be dry in a few days. Looking forward to a taste test.


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 29, 2021)

You made me rewatch the video. So he does grow out 500+ seeds of each variety. Tests them in 4 different seasonal environments and invites the original breeders for both selection and any breeding endeavors.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> You made me rewatch the video. So he does grow out 500+ seeds of each variety. Tests them in 4 different seasonal environments and invites the original breeders for both selection and any breeding endeavors.


Yeah, it's pretty crazy, apparently he is a rockstar in the genetics scene so the breeders are more than happy to visit and exchange knowledge both ways.

Being able to grow 250ish mother plants and then narrow that down to 1 or 2 plants for your production is a big advantage I can imagine.


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## ComfortCreator (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> This needs another comment, I feel.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "they bow to politics". If Cannabis is illegal, there's not much "bowing" to do; you cannot grow it commercially then.
> 
> ...


I'm just saying look at the future. It will be legal in the USA and all of Europe eventually. Why get behind the curve when they can stay at the front? What's the fallout if they announce it is legal in the NL and anybody can buy whatever they want? Will the other countries really shut them out?


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

ComfortCreator said:


> It will be legal in the USA and *all of Europe* eventually.


Stop saying that. It just sounds too good to be true.

Probably you are right, though. When enough countries have followed suit, the remaining dominoes will topple quickly.



ComfortCreator said:


> What's the fallout if they announce it is legal in the NL and anybody can buy whatever they want? Will the other countries really shut them out?


I'm not an expert for European Law -- there are actual university courses for just that. In many cases the member states can do whatever the fuck they want, as long as it does not touch trade or economics.

I think one of the last things to happen before the Final Judgment is for the European Union to announce that Cannabis is to be legalized, and to enforce that on member states. There are just so many more pressing issues that nobody will burn political capital on Cannabis.

If a country actually formally went "legal", they would have to deal with the BM issue eventually. As for how this would take place, I have no idea. The Dutch duct-taped it by forbidding sale to foreigners.

I think if Germany, for example, actually went full-on legal, all the neighbouring countries would have to follow suit really fast, or else they'd just lose a ton of potential tax income and would have to deal with a fuckton of smuggling on top of that.

One of the EU core countries would have to go legal, i.e. either Germany or France (in that case they'd probably coordinate that).


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> One of the EU core countries would have to go legal, i.e. either Germany or France (in that case they'd probably coordinate that).


you guys keep forgetting about your friendly neighbors to the North. 
not only is it legal, with a Shit-load of dispensaries dispensing just about anything we want to try, but we can grow our own in our backyards. : P


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 29, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> you guys keep forgetting about your friendly neighbors to the North.
> not only is it legal, with a Shit-load of dispensaries dispensing just about anything we want to try, but we can grow our own in our backyards. : P


friendly? You closed the doors and won’t let us in... just kidding. Yeah but to be honest Aurora kinda scares me with some of their more recent press releases. The new CEO (who does live in the USA and hasn’t been to Canada since he took over the company) has announced that they will be offering genetically modified strains and they are already using electron-beam therapy on certain strains. plus they sell their products internationally.... so please don’t fuck up the precedent of international weed sales Canada!

but in all honest I love hockey so as a result I have a soft spot for Canadians.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> but in all honest I love hockey so as a result I have a soft spot for Canadians.


i was really liking your reply until you mention the Canadians.  where's the Ban button?

Kidding 
always nice havin' ya's as a neighbour. just don't go buildin' no wall along our open boarder, or we won't be able to smuggle in our Canadian Grown product.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> you guys keep forgetting about your friendly neighbors to the North.
> not only is it legal, with a Shit-load of dispensaries dispensing just about anything we want to try, but we can grow our own in our backyards. : P


I'm in Europe. Our friendly neighbours to the North are the English  .

Fits your avatar picture, of course. I love _Little Britain_.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I'm in Europe. Our friendly neighbours to the North are the English  .


lmfao
I know... (_in my best Andy Pipkin voice_)

guess i need to be more specific next time.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I'm in Europe. Our friendly neighbours to the North are *the English *  .


my condolences, btw


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

I've mentioned the English specifically for a reason. Let's not put all Brits in the same bucket.

Most countries in Europe have their own love-hate relationship with the English. They, on the other hand, just dislike everybody else .

Culturally they have a lot to give. Politically... well... they used to have a lot to _take,_ but that's fading. A long phase of adjusting to new realities is ahead.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I've mentioned the English specifically for a reason. Let's not put all Brits in the same bucket.


I know the politics that goes on in Brittan, so i got the drift.  after all, da queen is our figure head, and we lick the back of her head evey time we send a letter in the post. 
we also have the same sort of relationship with our direct French-speaking neighbors to our East. I've always liked them, and I love going on trips to their Provence, but they don't seem to like the rest of their country.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

Oh, well, the French-English relationship is the most spicy of all the possible pairings. No wonder that applies to Canada as well, hundreds of years later.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Oh, well, the French-English relationship is the most spicy of all the possible pairings. No wonder that applies to Canada as well, hundreds of years later.


the whole war between the French and the English started in 1975, when The French Taunter, in Monty Python's _The Wholly Grail_ Movie, insulted the English. 



Our relationship with them has been all down-hill ever since.


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## Token Dankies (Sep 29, 2021)

Kindbud421 said:


> Was told by a source in the business that all pre-rolls are just the trim… no bud material at all. And that’s after shaking it for keif


Not all pre-rolls in the industry are booboo, I rolled over 20,000 from small buds that most definitely weren't kiefed but if there was trichomes on that leaf it stayed in. Obviously we were going for quality as it was the house award winning strain but we also wanted other ways to utilize the smaller stuff to keep the premium nugs for the shelf. Only once in my life have I ever seen the company use a trimmer and that was the last time I saw them use it. The quality is day and night against hand trimmed and what most people don't understand is that those places aren't necessarily supplying top shelf of what cannabis connoisseur's considers top shelf they are just calling the best of what they have top shelf. 

In this industry though you really don't always get what you pay for and sometimes those prerolls are way better than you'd think.Too many people give good ratings to shit companys or shit weed because mainstream people are fine with mediocre shit.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

Token Dankies said:


> Not all pre-rolls in the industry are booboo


i never understood why people prefer pre-rolls. they're OK, and don't get me wrong, they have their place (just like going through the driver-thru at McDonald's), but don't go complaining about the quality of the food or roll, or lack thereof, when you can get so much better at a higher-end restaurant, or get the groceries yourself and cook a fancy meal.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

*How far can "ripeness" be pushed?*

In direct answer to da question:
If you're cloning and growing the same plant every year, a very simple way to find out is to this year harvest a branch or two at various stages of the trichome cycle: 100% cloudy; 30% amber; 60% amber; 90-100%; 1 week overripe, etc.
Then after final harvest and cure, you can clear you agenda and schedule for a day or two, sit down in a very comfy chair, and then do a comparison.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> clear you agenda and schedule for a day or two, sit down in a very comfy chair, and then do a comparison


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## Token Dankies (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


>


Conclusion: It was a good day


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 29, 2021)

Token Dankies said:


> Conclusion: It was a good day


For me, that would have been one of the worst days in my life. Give me one or two tokes from a bad pre-roll and I'm done. CBD feels great, though.


----------



## phrygian44 (Sep 29, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> For me, that would have been one of the worst days in my life. Give me one or two tokes from a bad pre-roll and I'm done. CBD feels great, though.


And that's just for one strain. You got several more to go! 
: p


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## Slartibart4242 (Sep 29, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> my condolences, btw


i am sorry for my ignorance. Clearly it wasn’t bliss...


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

One should consider adjusting the light intensity per day (increasing/decreasing DLI) and the amount and intensity of UVA/deep-violet in the final ripeness phase of the grow to accelerate or slow down ripeness of the plant in line with the desired trichome contents.

Over-ripeness can be wanted, if you dont desire that much THC but CBN in favor.

Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/cbd-vs-cbn#cbn-benefits-uses


> Here are some of the common uses and potential benefits of CBN:
> 
> *Sleep*
> Many people report that CBN helps them sleep. However, there’s only one study showing that it can potentially act as a sedative — it’s from 1975Trusted Source and had only five male participants.
> ...


In case you desire a high THC : CBD ratio, harvesting at an early stage is OK, because the CBD is tiny, no matter the THC isn't that high, even 8% would be still ok.... it was ok for decades, this stuff bangs your head like a wrecking ball, because of the low CBD, thats why harvesting not too late is great!

If you want a less psychoactive more fun to be with dope you let it get some amber. This is what i've learned. The genetic plays a role, for sure. But those values are at the given flowering time-duration the breeder states with high-light intensity measured.... not with low light intensities, then you must spend more days to achieve the same DLI, this is the same with any plant ripeness, tomatoes you can find DLI maps, how much to give extra to achieve the full potential in the "time" given. The energy for synthetising the resin secretion must come somewhere. Thats it! I grow with 1000ppfd in week 1-8 week and week 8-10 700ppfd increasing the UVA/violets around the noon. Incredible amount of Milky resin and all the way ripe stigmas up to the top! The first signs of amber, I give 24h darkness, for more terpenes and floavonoids peaking and less sugar content (respiring it all up) and harvest then.

No problems with mold, and always big sticky milky-way chunks!

It's tricky without such control to find the right timing to stop feeding the plant (2 weeks before that moment). On low light intensities, growers often hunger the plants out too early, like the breeders schedule, needing much longer, and then sometimes the plants ripe but the resin doesn't propperly without UVA/violet (photolyase) 

When ever my stockpile run out and i calm down a few days, then snipping an early bud...oh dear, I always regret it, pure chaos in the mind.... and I love it the same time. But in general, a little CBD is better or I go nuts


----------



## go go kid (Sep 30, 2021)

printer said:


> I have some bought weed from when we legalized. I looked at it with my microscope out of curiosity and saw, the trichomes were missing. One of the reasons I still have it is because I haven't really got ripped on it. It is a Diesel, should do something to a, haven't smoked anything for 15-20 years guy. I really should grow a strain to do that though (mainly medical). Maybe in the summer.


have you seen why? they use these tumblers at end of harvst and the trices get tmbled off and end up in a kief draw at the bottom, thats our trics missing from the bud


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## Token Dankies (Sep 30, 2021)

go go kid said:


> have you seen why? they use these tumblers at end of harvst and the trices get tmbled off and end up in a kief draw at the bottom, thats our trics missing from the bud


You guys are hilarious to keep going on about tumblers, stop shopping at the shit show shops and find a decent one or grow your own. I was in the industry for almost 10 years and among many of these myths the tumbled weed is another one of em. From drying to curing to bagging up it goes through many hands and a lot of those trichs get damaged by being man handled not by being tumbled. Stop spreading fucktardianism.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

Token Dankies said:


> fucktardianism


Word of the month.

(Just checked the _Urban Dictionary_, and that particular word is missing an entry. I do not feel qualified to write one.)


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

go go kid said:


> thats our trics missing from the bud


When your friends want buds at a low price or gifted for free like if it was nothing or easy and dont respect the work, like if it shit from the streets and not valueing the brutal mass of trichomes modern lights the grower produces in comparison to whatever they saw in a coffeeshop, higher quality, these good growers must be idiot to not tumble their compact bud outside-surface and produce a hash-plate with +80% for himself, or give-away these plates under value, like this one  Why would I smoke weed anymore, when i can have THIS:


1st choice sputnik of best maroc-family is a joke against this feminised sinsemilia hash. The value per gramm is simply to high for sale.... you want this for yourself if you can get your hands on it. Or produce it yourself witout destroying the buds like with iceolator.

This is what the coffeeshops and dispensories do too since a few years the THC and trichome-heads are hardly declining.... they tumbling more, because the buds grow more resin than ever before, thanks to light quality in the riping-phase.

Thats how it's going to be pushed to the max.... but nobody wants to pay it, but have more THC for free to buy less... suuuure, but who is the grower? Santa Clause? No, so they tumble it 5% of the mass down, still have good weed, but have the premium hash for themselves and dont need take away weed for themselves... so they have MORE to sell.

The question is... why would you not do it? If you smoke thats hash instead of weed, your smoking less material to get the same THC into your blood. You have 5% less mass..... but this "weed" you dont smoke anymore adds up instead, and its more, so you have more to trade with in effect ;=)

No problem when you produce +30% thc buds.... they are still upper 20s afterwards and still not "standard".

Shoot me I m afriend of dry sieved hash... this quality i produce for myself, you wont find in the highest regions of marokko or himalaya. Anyone who wants my weed, must let me take my part or find something else, or do it himself. I dont make it secretly, I do it for me and Im proud of it... and im also proud of all they way compact flowers that no matter they are sieved from the outside, when you crush them... theres ENOUGH trics... more than most people ever had seen in their life! So guess what, i dont fracking care the tard.... its idiotic! Who's anyone to tell me what am I supposed to do with my weed.... thats my decision! Your decision is when you want is: Take it or leave it! Im fine with both. Basta!


----------



## Token Dankies (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Word of the month.
> 
> (Just checked the _Urban Dictionary_, and that particular word is missing an entry. I do not feel qualified to write one.)


Praise ye CSN, for we have added to the language this day!


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

IM A TUMBLER..... HATE ME NOW!
I smoke my my hash in an afghan cave, preparing the next strike on your territory LFMAO

No honestly, just joking..


----------



## Token Dankies (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> When your friends want buds at a low price or gifted for free like if it was nothing or easy and dont respect the work, like if it shit from the streets and not valueing the brutal mass of trichomes modern lights the grower produces in comparison to whatever they saw in a coffeeshop, higher quality, these good growers must be idiot to not tumble their compact bud outside-surface and produce a hash-plate with +80% for himself, or give-away these plates under value, like this one  Why would I smoke weed anymore, when i can have THIS:
> 
> View attachment 4998564
> 1st choice sputnik of best maroc-family is a joke against this feminised sinsemilia hash. The value per gramm is simply to high for sale.... you want this for yourself if you can get your hands on it. Or produce it yourself witout destroying the buds like with iceolator.
> ...


some of us like a nice strong beer, others enjoy wine, spirits or liquor. I still wouldn't tumble my buds before putting them on the shelf, the amount of handling those buds go through I wouldn't wanna lose any bag appeal. But I don't vend anymore and don't work in a collective I run my own business so instead I take care of myself and know what I am putting in my body.

That hash looks amazing no doubt, I love a nice press, dry sift and I used to love the flavors in the bho but all it takes is some bad batches to find out quick I didn't want that.

To each their own, I just know many places don't tumble their buds. I am sure there are plenty that do but to me that is shady business regardless of whether it takes away from the high or not.

*(Alright the definition of "fucktardianism" is now under review)*


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Most people believe the dutch weed in the coffeeshops was grown legally in the netherlands.
But how comes the dutch government has no trace of where it comes from at all....
Somewhere in good old germany, there seems to be a folk of evil criminal tumblers... 
They are so high, like, i don't know, so high was noone before... can't leterally describe the highness of thou
The NASA can't do anything what they can't do, they reach higher, including their grow lights. 
If they wouldn't grow weed, be glad, they might come up with atomicbombs or stuff like meth, like in the past... these crazy germans, always put there nose to deep in anything and dont get them out again  Never forget they find out sh*t... every thing!
But don't panic, they are still under pursue for smoking or selling weed and locked up behind bars, these evil underground tumblers. 

Some things will never change!


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

Token Dankies said:


> for we have added to the language this day


Your work alone.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Most people believe the dutch weed in the coffeeshops was grown legally in the netherlands.


Cannabis is illegal in the Netherlands. All the commercial growing (non-medical) that is going on is technically illegal, but tolerated. The weed in the coffee shops strictly speaking should not even exist, from a legal point of view.



CheGueVapo said:


> But how comes the dutch government has no trace of where it comes from at all....


I guess everybody knows where it comes from. It is grown by the people running the coffee shops or by people close to them; illegally grown, technically.

AFAIK there are now limited initiatives to actually regulate the growing, and have the product tested etc. (unrelated to production of medical cannabis).


----------



## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> ...
> this quality i produce for myself, you wont find in the highest regions of marokko or himalaya. Anyone who wants my weed, must let me take my part or find something else, or do it himself.


*F'n 'A'! *


I always knew that everything that i bought all my life was stepped on, low grade, reasonable shit. No problem, you got a buzz, and back in the day when you did happen to come across some exceptionally good shit, like Acapulco Gold, you got a F'n amazing and incredible BUZZ!, and life was good.

It wasn't until I grew my own plants and i seen my own gorgeous, sexy, super-fat, trichome-laced, sugar-coated, terpene-saturated, bloomed to perfection buds, that it hit me: No one, and i do mean NO ONE is getting these buds. I don't care what price you're offering. You can have any of the lower shit off the stem, but you ain't getting my cream.

That's when i realized that we, as buyers, or anyone else in the distribution chain, will never see product at this level of perfection. The grower will always take the cream off the top for himself - no question.

At first this bothered me (how dare they; how dare the universe withhold product of this quality from ever having a chance of reaching us), but now, i don't care, as i understand why they are doing it. It's NOT for the money. It's for the absolute perfection. It's like owning a Van Gough, a Da Vinci, a Rembrandt, a Monet, and i ain't gonna give any of these to you. They're mine!

You want it, you grow it!


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## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

Token Dankies said:


> Praise ye CSN, for we have added to the language this day!


Hallelujah! Praise be!


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> It is grown by the people running the coffee shops or by people close to them


Sure if you think that could ever be enough, what you think they do when it run empty? Close they shop? No it always FULL of weed, no matter how much is selled.... if you believe thats all from the "closer" and there's no import over the borders, fine. But in fact there is more export from germany TO the coffeshops than import personal use from those shops back to germany its the same mafia that sells anywhere without a coffeeshop, they have all nationalities.... they drive in there like a consumer, get to the back and sell their weed. 

They dont control the roads or shipyards towards the netherlands for import of weed.... the cops are smeared. Yes it's still completely tehcnaically illegal.... the cops close their eyes, nothing more. Do you think they do it because they dont profit? Haha, no! They control the consuments trying to get away with it back with 5g over the border ... because those consuments dont want to buy illegal on the streets in germany. Its hilarious.

Germany doesn't move! It's too conservative! The elections proof this matter is stuck again 4 year wont change anything!


----------



## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> ... these crazy germans, always put there nose to deep in anything and dont get them out again  Never forget they find out sh*t... every thing!


Lmao. I'm German; 'Tis true.


----------



## Rurumo (Sep 30, 2021)

I can't speak for all dispensaries or commercial growers, but I do have a good buddy from high school who supplies dispensaries with extremely mediocre bud and he admits to "lightly" harvesting trichomes before they go to the dispo. This isn't a rumor or urban legend.... unscrupulous growers big and small have done this since the 70s. I remember trimming for a guy as a kid (beat having a paper route) and him bouncing the hell out of the trimmed buds and shake over a screen. THC percentages are so high across the board, the majority of people just don't notice-if you haven't grown yourself or had access to premium homegrown, then that sorry screened dispo weed looks amazing!


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> these crazy germans, always put there nose to deep in anything and dont get them out again  Never forget they find out sh*t... every thing!





phrygian44 said:


> Lmao. I'm German; 'Tis true.


Not quite. We already _know_ everything, or at least know better than others. No need to "find out sh*t".



CheGueVapo said:


> Sure if you think that could ever be enough, what you think they do when it run empty? Close they shop? No it always FULL of weed, no matter how much is selled.... if you believe thats all from the "closer" and there's no import over the borders, fine. But in fact there is more export from germany TO the coffeshops than import personal use from those shops back to germany


This is very well possible. I am completely convinced that nowadays the majority of the weed that is consumed is grown pretty close by. And in NL they have extra demand, so it is unlikely that it is all grown domestically there.

At the end of the day, it does not matter for indoor grows. The Dutch don't have a magic wand that makes their weed inexplicable better than others'.



CheGueVapo said:


> Germany doesn't move! It's too conservative! The elections proof this matter is stuck again 4 year wont change anything!


Very true, but we will see. I have the faint hope that the next 4 years might bring some change, if the most likely scenario for a future government plays out (center-left coalition); both the Greens and our beloved yellow friends are in favour of liberalizing.


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> You want it, you grow it!


Exactly... have the balls first, especially if you're pursued for every tiny milligramms of this result.... the THC, not the bud alone!
Its not that i dont share it .... i roll a blaster from the hash or from the weed i got and pass it on without a tear it beiing gone.

I just dont like when people enjoy it, then want to have it, and get angry when I say that this isn't for sale.... or if that the price that I think that its worth it appears them too high compared to some henna-hash they can get their hands on and calling it "zerozero".... i can 0,0xmm-sieve a cartire if grind that small enough to powder xF. If the hash is 4times the thc compared to a 20% THC bud, and i know that, because i use that, and use 4 times less to have my fun compared to my weed... then that it is four times the price of that weed, what you think......  People look at me like i've insulted them ... filled up with enviousness... they expected the hash beeing cheaper than the weed lol, like if it not was concentrated bang.... like if it is a cheap extended import product from marocco or lebananos outdoor semilia sieves...

Whatever anywhere i show up and people know me, within minutes they sit next to me and wait for anything to smoke from me....

Dont think any one of those pass me a beer... they think im millionaire or something because I always have weed... they take it easy, but they dont give anything back  I dont mind but take this as a compliment to my growing skills  Making the junkies 

You should see their eyes when I say, "yes the weed is tumbled, guess where I got my twisla-hash from that you think is so expensive".... if looks could kill, i'd be dead already. Still they enjoy it... you should see their eyes after smoking the buds lol... kinda different.... smiling at me with this infant happy face.  haha

And when i look what the POCs here sell in terms of quality and mass..... i have no doubt im correct thinking my tumbled weed still is more premium, more clean, and when i got something to give, it's still cheaper than anywhere else... I dont produce much and dont do it for the money, but to not need to buy this dirt myself, still is kinda disvaluing feeling if someone tries to ask you for lot more and lower course, and compares you to prices of these "dirt", dont see the difference, never recognising whats the resin at all is, and that the resin contains the bang, like if Im a dealer having no idea of his own products, that unlocks course when they wink with more money....... im not, im a grower, focusing on the Resin, not the buds, trying to not show it that im a grower to anyone first moment lol.... and that feels disrespectful, I do it only to have enough twisla/sputnik-hash for me, I dont need to sell it, but doing those a favor who want to buy it... that im sure of.... and of course I still love smoking the buds.... up to now, ive reinvested every cent back in better growing equipement and constructing better led-lamps.... thats my hobbies. 

I didn't trust hash in the past and this is whate I experience in others. Some only trust buds at all, and seeing it as they only safe product when buying, because with hash you never know, you dont "see" anything, just this "mass"... so the trust in hash is low, but they do more and more shit with synthetic cannabinoids on buds too, im glad that im SAFE with any of my product... thats all I care... i dont want coffeshop... i want the authorities stop caring what is inside MY ROOM, what I DO, and what I CONSUME! This is non of anyones business... not even the laws! This is my freedom!

Anyways, having my own hash-stuff, sieving it 0,0xmm changed my mind! I like it! And I trust myself, of course.... so what!?


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I do have a good buddy from high school who supplies dispensaries with extremely mediocre bud and he admits to "lightly" harvesting trichomes before they go to the dispo. This isn't a rumor or urban legend.... unscrupulous growers big and small have done this since the 70s.


OF COURSE they have. To be quite honest, I can hardly even fault them. It is just way, way too tempting for somebody who is interested in their own product; and nobody will ever be the wiser about it.

(Not that I condone such dishonesty, but I've stopped believing in Santa and the good in humans a long time ago.)

Your best bet is probably to buy from somebody who does not consume much themselves; who do it as a hobby. There you'd have a chance to get some prime product grown just for the joy of it.



Rurumo said:


> I remember trimming for a guy as a kid (beat having a paper route)






Rurumo said:


> THC percentages are so high across the board, the majority of people just don't notice


Absolutely, and that might even be taken as "no harm done by giving the buds a little shakety-shake". If the customers do not even notice, what is the damage? (Yes, it is dishonest.)


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Anytime somebody says "but i can have 'haze' for lower price"
I answer: "fine, its tumbled, whatever"... and Im outta the deal  and must never see him again.
Still I know he remembers what he just smoked from me.... and that drives him mad, with what ive just said.

I try to maximally confuse the facts and fictions of the people 




ComputerSaysNo said:


> "no harm done by giving the buds a little shakety-shake


You do know, that newer +37% THC strains are not just "better selections", dont you? Its because the grow-lights advanced. For decades people thought it was the UVB. But it's not! The photolyase-process has been discovered, plants determine the amount UVB icoming radiation by measuring the UVA in the near PAR-range. You trick them with THAT to produce more resin and THC in the right moment, not with the UVB!

Another aspect is the density of the buds themselves what is determined by the light intensity that you are growing....

If you grow 500-700ppfd... the sieving might rip the resin of completely from the fluffy weed.... but if you grow dense buds at high intensity 800-1000pppf and use UVA/violets to increase resin secretion in the riping phase, you can get ANY strain higher than the 30% THC mark.... and it grows so dense and compact, that no matter you tumble it frozen for a hole day..... the inside resin stay tight! You can only access it via grinding it!

You only reduce the outter surface trichomes with tumbling high density compact flowers, those that everyone loves and everyone wants.... and it does not significantly reduce the flowerbuds overall content.... you reducing only a tiny percentage.

And thats why afterwards those flowers STILL have +25% thc possible... stilll giving the grower pure 5% resin from the harvest that had more than 30% resin, ready to be pressed to hash!

It matters from what montain you tumble it down... and how much! How small you cut the dense buds down for the tumbling process... if you take big flowers.... barely few is sieved, no matte rhow long.... you must cut them down to access resin. Thats why tumbling big buds... say like 500g to carry out 25g twisla-hash is no proiblem.... if the weed had 25% resin (125g) than you took off one fifth only..... that menas your 25% dope is now 20% dope.... oooooh now... wanna buy 20% weed? SURE YOU WANT! DONT YOU?

If you can afford it, have that equipement.... go for it!

Why should it be a big thing.... one buys it at all because of the THC.... in the coffeeshops the higher THC strains have higher price.
This doesn't work without the shops..... noone wants to buy your 20bucks weed.... so you tumble it down to be 10bucks weed and have the 20 bucks hash for yourself... its easy! No shame! Stop shaming ... 

I just say how it is.... officials warning for too high THC content, thats such a danger, these THC keeps increasing, oh dare lol... great point... Do something against it.... increase it, ok bro, but then tumble it down like the walls of jericho  Haha...


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> And thats why afterwards those flowers STILL have +25% thc possible...


Yes, and even if you "tumbled" them down from 25% to 15% that would still be more than strong enough for most people. Even 10%.

The more casual consumers don't feel the difference between 10% or 25%. It all gets them high as fuck after a few tokes. (I'm not even talking about myself because I'm an actual micro-doser.)

There are lots and LOTS of people who are just happy to grab some weed that gets them high for a few hours on the weekend; they are pleased when the stuff is not laced, and they'll buy it from you at the standard rate with a happy face. Many of them don't even know what "trichomes" are, or what a resin-rich flower looks like.

The Canadians around here and the people from legal US states are so used to getting whatever they want by now that it's hard for them to see that (completely understandable).

ROSIN? SHATTER? These things practically don't exist on the EU BM, or so expensive that there's no market for it.



CheGueVapo said:


> If you can afford it, have that equipement.... go for it!


Does not sound expensive to me to install a few extra UVA strips. It's the knowledge that counts.
(Very interesting BTW.)


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

I even found people that took there mouth to full.... they said 3 seconds after the toke: "I dont feel anything".... "i said, ya, no scratchy, but wait for the bang"... he toke more and still had big mouth.... 5 minutes later he was done, laying there like, well "done"... he couldn't even answer me "what you feel now?"

That was unsieved, blunt. You could really smoke that like air, it tasted well pleasantly, but very subtile.... and if you're tolerant... it's ok, dude, but i knocked off anyone who not passed that whopper quickly.... some realised, toke one and passed it on.... some others greedy vacuumcleaners still proceed their toketoketoketoke.... and payd it with: 

It worked in teaching them a lesson.... 

People dont realize what it means to have +30% THC weed.... you need only tiny doses to knock some unskilled off who is used to 10-15% weed. If you tolerate that, easily after some experience, doesn't mean others can.

Yeah it's right most people are fine with 10% THC weed.

Whyshould one achieve higher tolerance at all if one wants the highness effect..... god damnit, one must smoke less to feel higher.... the more you put in, the more it's just medicinal, but no more bang.... saying you are no more under the influence, like beeing drunk.

When you smoke 1g of 25-30% THC weed or hash a day, after some days, you are pretty much psychicly sober... feeling no more effect. Thats normal.

Again why to give away such buds or such hash to beginners who believe "weed is weed"... this is the most hilarious sentence i heard... "weed is weed". Gosh no!


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Does not sound expensive to me to install a few extra UVA strips


They have a quite shorter life expectancy that the other leds.... also 385,395,405 are relatively expensive. So the costs are a thing that reflect in the price, non the less it is possible to harvest more THC per square than ever before or than ever seen in the wilderness, with only femines at this conditions.

I buy that stuff extra to achieve that higher resin, and i sieve a part of it off, for me and for those who want to have it pure. Still having the weed up from 20-25%... i think thats a good compromise.

It is a cost. These are around ten euros per chip in europe..... and their life-expectancy is far shorter than royalblue, so you need extra channel, and replace them expensivly from time to time after few years. So its significant cost, compared to a good led-growlight that itself has possible 90% luminance over 60khrs (13years) ...over the time the UVAs are getting far more expensive in the total cost this way per gram over the time, than the rest of the LEDs. :/

BTW: dont revert + -... those chips cant handle it and die! Thats also an aspect why you often have to replace them, it's because of the these-chipsmaterial.... take care the right polarity with the UVAs... 420-430nm HP-chips are also easy to kill this way!


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## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Not quite. We already _know_ everything, or at least know better than others. No need to "find out


*Sssssssssh*! I know, that we already know. I just didn't want to scare the shit outta everyone and let them know.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

I know a lot... but in fact, it's nothing! So i know nothing! Hold my beer, reach me the cup of hemlock... I'm going to prove it anytime! I'm stupid 
*coughcough


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## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Exactly... have the balls first, especially if you're pursued for every tiny milligramms of this result.... the THC, not the bud alone!
> Its not that i dont share it .... i roll a blaster from the hash or from the weed i got and pass it on without a tear it beiing gone.
> 
> I just dont like when people enjoy it, then want to have it, and get angry when I say that this isn't for sale....!?


I hear you on both points. When i say no one's getting it, i mean no one other than my immediate family and very close friends. I'll give them a couple of rolls for a birthday or Xmas presents, but they don't get any if they say "hay, man, can i get any more of this shit?" I check my computer, and The Computer Says No. 

Side Note: if you really want to know how good your close friends are, phone them up and say you're moving outta your house in 2 weeks time and need help, and then see who turns up to help or backs out with a lame excuse.

And if you are just happen to be moving, keep an eye on everyone and see who does the work, and who stands around and does all the talking. And Yes, i am talking about YOU, DION.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> It matters from what montain you tumble it down... and how much!


This particular comment, as well as all the others here are all "very valid" points. 
I have no problem with someone taking some off the top. It's their grow, they did all the work and put all kinds of their love into the plants. They've earned the right to do so. And do you think the shit you buy from anyone else is supposed to be magically any better? 
Hell! If i knew someone was growing 35 and cutting 10 for himself, which leaves me with a respectable 25%THC, F', man, i would be a loyal and greatful customer.

I also guess this is an issue because it's not just a matter of taking a cut, it's harvesting the trichomes right of the bud in a harmful and mechanical manner. And again, i say "So what? " there's plenty of embedded trichomes still buried inside the bud, and yes, the harvesting process does break/pop its fair share of 'chomes, but which then get absorbed into the pourus calyx's, so what's the real issue?

I always wanted to make hash. It's my favorite stone by far, but was always scared to do so. But now that I've seen CheGueVapo's gorgeous masterpiece and pressed work of art, I think im going to start doing the same.

And if you want all of the virgin-pure buds, or hash made from the top trich's, then as i said before, Grow the plants and do all the damn work yourself. Betcha dollars to donuts that after you've done this, you'll have switched over to the dark side too.


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## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> I know a lot... but in fact, it's nothing! So i know nothing! Hold my beer, reach me the cup of hemlock... I'm going to prove it anytime! I'm stupid
> *coughcough


*Whoa!* Easy there with the philosophy, Socrates.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> They have a quite shorter life expectancy that the other leds.... also 385,395,405 are relatively expensive.


It does not have to be an LED, though. You get a 300W regular UVA lamp for around €40. Lower power ones much cheaper.

Cost does not seem to be an issue here, IF the effect on the flowers is actually significant.



phrygian44 said:


> Side Note: if you really want to know how good your close friends are, phone them up and say you're moving outta your house in 2 weeks time and need help, and then see who turns up to help or backs out with a lame excuse.


Well, I have decided long ago that when you earn money in a regular job, you have enough to pay a couple of college kids to help you moving. Or an actual moving company.

I will not help anybody move again in my life, and for that reason, and that's the "excuse" they're going to here from me.

Boy, this thread has drifted way off topic.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> It does not have to be an LED, though. You get a 300W regular UVA lamp for around €40. Lower power ones much cheaper.


What is a "regular UVA lamp"?


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> But now that I've seen CheGueVapo's gorgeous masterpiece


Plus zerozero-sieving the tumbled twisla with a 200 mesh turn out a lot of fluffs and hairs that could be easily removed with sieving...
That moment i realised what dirt catcher cannabis is in-house for dust and flour, things i never wanted to know.... consequently you smoke it with the buds, unless you have deep filtering clean room. With 200-meshed sieved hash, you dont get rid of fine dust, but at least the hairs and flours.... uarghs. Was no fun to see the hairs group themselves up the mesh, so you just can pull out dust bunnys :/ haha

Once you go that road you see things that make you dont ever return again.

Hehe, regarding the plate. I lay that seal-tree-logo from an aluminium-ornament behind celophan over the lid of a rosin press form
Like this: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B08CVRQFTV
Then i fill in the tumbled sieved clean kief. And then I use this ton-press to press it without or minimum heat: https://www.piher.com/en/inicio/244-maxipress-r---depth16cm.html

They are easy to handle, cheap and have enough force.... you dont need the expensive presses. These Piher 10000N do it  But stay back from generous standard screw-clamps, they are not enough, just give you blisters on the hand. You need the 1t for bigger sizes than a thumbnail.... i tried a lot presses, but i refuse to pay for peacemaker or the puck-presses. This 1t screw press with easy 90°-handlebar does it very well and is relatively cheap.

My plates are relative small, its about 12-15g, first i press the logo, then another times to tighten the rest of the square...
I dont need a lot of it, small plates is enough for me, but these small pres spucks were to small to me and always loose aluminium... some plates are soft like glue like the best twisla/sputnik, depending what quality and duration I sieve, not the easiest to pulverize or "apply", the zero when include the trimm its harder, and that sieved zerozero with 200 mesh again is better, but the trimm gives a lot plant-parts, the plates look unique, scissor works best any cases, i more grate/rasp it. Never use the lighter, expcept for the final moment 

I still take care for good clean buds... the inlet-air is standard-filtered, i dont do it so i dont need to care the buddies, its organic, dont give nutrients the last weeks, watch out and prevent mold, recycle the soil, using ro-water and anythign to increase the qiuality by all means in any aspect. Hash has a certain kind of charming pureness that is worth discovering on top of it all. It's refined/pure resin, with a very old tradition.... sadly these old wise marocs never smoked some sensimilia hash....  It might boggle their mind if they could try that


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> What is a "regular UVA lamp"?


Flourescent or black light, not LED.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Flourescent or black light, not LED.


You have a 300w UV flourescent? Usually I would expect something that powerful to be mercury vapor, however they have a lot of uvb in addition to uva.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> What is a "regular UVA lamp"?


Theres fluorescent lamps. Google for PUVA therapy and you find the bulbs.

15W is enough for a 300W LED..... one should stimulate with extra additional UVA..... not let the fucking lucifer shine down on them to grow chlorosis! 300W UVA bulb... , by the almighty....


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Theres fluorescent lamps. Google for PUVA therapy and you find the bulbs.


I'm quite aware of that. There are also uva incandescent lamps, as well as mercury vapor. I wanted to know what the poster considered a "regular uva lamp" that pushes 300watts to be.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> You have a 300w UV flourescent? Usually I would expect something that powerful to be mercury vapor, however they have a lot of uvb in addition to uva.


This one is not flourescent:





ULTRA VITALUX 300 W 230 V E27 | OSRAM PIA







www.osram.com


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> I wanted to know what the poster considered a "regular uva lamp" that pushes 300watts to be.


See above. With "regular" I just meant "not LED".

Also I guess you'd need a lot less than 300W for this application. Probably a few low-watt flourescents would be fine. I do not know. Would be happy to try it some day, when I have the means to run a controlled experiment (everything else is Voodoo).


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

The question is how far away to position such a lamp if it exists and what to wear to protect, since this power is significant... you dont want to stand next to such an emitting device.




ComputerSaysNo said:


> That one is not flourescent.


But its not 300W UV-A.. check the data:


> *Photometrical data*
> *Radiated power 315…400 nm (UVA)*
> 13.6 W


Dont claim its 300W UVA when its just a normal white light with having some UVA.... thats not the SAME

Nobody puts a 300W UVA pure lamp into operation... for no sane reason  Nobody thinks about inventing it.. for what sane reason???


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Dont claim its 300W UVA when its just a normal white light with having some UVA.... thats not the SAME


Yeah, OK. I think my point is clear: LEDs are not necessary to put out arbitrary amounts of UVA light, and the flourescent bulbs you get are very inexpensive.



> The question is how far away to position such a lamp if it exists and what to wear to protect, since this power is significant... you dont want to stand next to such an emitting device.


Absolutely. Very dangerous and can blind you. I would not use that lamp.

I would try a couple of 15ish Watt flourescents.


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

*UVA Therapielampe PUVA 120 W*
is the biggest i could find on the net for therapy..... theese are pure in the range lower than 410.... peaking at 350.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

Yes, it needs to be safe to handle, and put out the wave lengths needed for the plants. LEDs are great because they're so compact and fairly efficient. But as far as I'm concerned it would not have to be LEDs, as long as it works; especially since the "traditional" technology is a lot less expensive, and much easier to acquire.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Absolutely. Very dangerous and can blind you.


I agree, never look inside such lamps, same goes for the UVA/deepblue LED-chips, but also the royalblue can leave spots on your retina/macula.

Shut off UVx for inspection to protect your skin and STILL use protection wear for the eyes, and i mean not only a cap, and some general sun-glasses but a protective google with UV400 block, thats the most important.

A normal sun-glass does notprotect you but can make it worse, because UV is not blocked, but because of the less light incoming, your pupils widen and more UV penetrates your eyes. 

I recommend Uvex CBR65


These are optimal... they only darken your view a little, you barelyrecognize a dimount. Bud the blue chips get filtered and any UV got blocked....

Under those kind of googles your eyes will be propperly protected, especially when dealing with high power blue/violet/uv chips.... they are cheaper than most "sunglasses", not expensive.

... and these protection gear does not mean you are now free to stare into the chips... STILL avoid focusing them. Just in case you thought that with it it would be OK... nope! Just let that be! Believe me... tiny black spots on the vision for the rest of your live are not funny games!  Better you learn it before you experience it!


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> ... and these protection gear does not mean you are now free to stare into the chips... STILL avoid focusing them. Just in case you thought that with it it would be OK... nope! Just let that be! Believe me... tiny black spots on the vision for the rest of your live are not funny games!  Better you learn it before you experience it!


In one of Jorge Cervante's books he mentions that growers have been blinded by opening running ozone generators and looking into the UV light source inside. Big Ouch.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Hmm why would any grower do that stupid. Better put your eyes into books to seek enlightenment, not into uv-c chips or other emitter.... oh dear. I hear this melody from somewhere, the weeknd.... uuuuh, im blinded by the lights


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> This one is not flourescent:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That light only puts out 13.6 W in the UVA range.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

I have one of these myself, but don't always use it:


AgroMax Pure UV T5 Bulb – AgroMax


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> That light only puts out 13.6 W in the UVA range.


Any light source puts out far less net radiation in the respective spectrum than the nominal power intake. Even LEDs radiate most of the power away as heat.

We would have to look at the LED numbers, too, here.

In any case, that light bulb is oversized and most likely very dangerous to handle. Not recommended.


----------



## Rurumo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> I have one of these myself, but don't always use it:
> 
> 
> AgroMax Pure UV T5 Bulb – AgroMax


I've got two of these, and two of the very basic reflector less fluorescent fixtures for them but I've been hesitant to try them out. I'm just not sure if I should use them with my LED bar light. I could easily mount the fluoros in between the bars, but since there is no reflector, I'm worried some of the UV light will spill up on the LED, which seems like it would be terrible for the diodes. Any idea how I could get around this? I'd love to try these things, but it was easier with my CMH hood in the tent.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I've got two of these, and two of the very basic reflector less fluorescent fixtures for them but I've been hesitant to try them out. I'm just not sure if I should use them with my LED bar light. I could easily mount the fluoros in between the bars, but since there is no reflector, I'm worried some of the UV light will spill up on the LED, which seems like it would be terrible for the diodes. Any idea how I could get around this? I'd love to try these things, but it was easier with my CMH hood in the tent.


I use a T5 fixture that has a very small reflector: https://www.bayhydro.com/lightech_t5_strip_2_24w


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Well despite the absorbance spectrum of THC peaks lower for UVB and even when it absorbs deeper UVA better, the resin secretetion and production seems to increase best with the photons right around the edge of the visible spectrum. The luminus chips perfectly fit in.... 405 can be attached to the regular light, while 375, 385 and 395 can move to an extra channel, to increase then manually in the riping phase an just tiny wattage per chip. Keep an eye on bugbee an kosuma, they are elaborting the usefullness.





Bet they are. The UVB :UVA ratio is about 1 : 10 for sunlight.... the Bs do the severer damage, but the As energy trigger the enzymatic repair processes... what in our case, means: more resin secretion! It's photolyase, a well documented process.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Any light source puts out far less net radiation in the respective spectrum than the nominal power intake. Even LEDs radiate most of the power away as heat.
> 
> We would have to look at the LED numbers, too, here.
> 
> In any case, that light bulb is oversized and most likely very dangerous to handle. Not recommended.


All light is ultimately converted to heat anyway. My point was that you have a 300w lamp, which only 5% of it's energy is emitted in the UV range. You could take a different lamp which only outputs in the UV range for a more efficient fixture. The 300w lamp you linked to appears to be incandescent (although it could be some sort of halide), which is the least efficient of all lighting types.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> The 300w lamp you linked to appears to be incandescent (although it could be some sort of halide), which is the least efficient of all lighting types.


Yes, I was just looking quickly for the affordable UVA lights with a high power rating. This is probably not the right choice for a growing application in any case.

I'm wondering if "black light" flourescents are suitable, they seem to be the easiest to get, and cheap. I've also seen that there are flourescents with a special plastic coating so they won't splinter all over the place when broken. It sounds like a good idea, since breaking flourescents are toxic.


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Bugbee explicitely mentions the efficiacies of the chips and compares it to the royalblue, which are very good. Listen carefully... i marked the timestamp wherehe begins about that topic, just click play.

Note: "the peak heights are proportional to their efficiacies, this is the standard blue"

Ya fixture manfactures already use them by years, we dont need bugbee to prove it or to show it to us, he is the last man connecting the dots for everyone who demands the stochastic proofs. But in fact, in reality... IT WORKS! Need proof?

How the fuck such things somehow suddenly be possible....








Buy Captain Future from Anesia Seeds - Oaseeds


Buy Captain Future seeds by Anesia Seeds now. Fast and discreet shipping within 24 hours. Best Price Guaranteed. Freebies on all orders.




oaseeds.com







> After our Future # 1 *was tested several times for over 37% THC* and became a hit among dispensaries, it was clear to us that the journey could not end here.


Cross-Breeding? You believe that? No. These chips turn the strains into higher secretion of resin and therefore more THC per gramms biomass grown! They can reproduce it.... move their hole sortiment to a higher level and get the laboratory proof... thanks to the lights. Doi they tell everbody their secrets... they must be stupid! The other bereeders wanna know too.... so it's secret. You must find out yourself. Right dose about the noon in the riping phase, having your microscope at hand to work out what works best, what length, when to start, how intense, best combination of those 365,385, 395... what do i know, find it out yourself! Im experiencing it myself!

These fluorascendet peak to low too..... the LED fit better.


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Check the luminus homepage, under the category "UV" you dont find the chips... but click on "horticulture" there it lists them:





Luminus : Horticulture LEDs


Luminus horticulture LEDs offer industry leading performance in terms of PPF [photo synthetic photon flux] and PPF/W metrics and come in a variety of package types ranging from mid-power to high power LEDs.




www.luminus.com





Why does luminus list these under horticulture?


Product ImageProductColorPackageMax
Drive CurrentOptical OutputLinksStatusSST-10-UV 365 nmSMT
3.45 mm x 3.45 mm1.0 A0.7 W - 0.9 WEcosystem
DatasheetActive385 nm0.9 W - 1.2 W395 nm0.9 W - 1.2 W405 nm0.8 W - 1.0 W






Maybe because they grow resin pretty effectively  At least the price of the chips seems to "proof" it, if they worth it, i would charge the highestprice on the led-market too. You dont find any expensivierchips than these.... well, juuuust coincidence 

Im out with some fitting music... i gave enough hints 




You succeed at last, i know it, do not show it, don't give up now, keep on trying


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> All light is ultimately converted to heat anyway.


The chemical splitting of 2 hydrogen from 2hydrogene with1 oxygene, called "water", via light, called "photosythesis" is NOT a conversion into heat, but a conversion of energy into accumulation of complex molecules in an organical beeing, called "growth"..... the bud is only ultimately converted into heat if i burn it. So long I don't do it.... it is not yet light converted into heat  Dont say every light is ultimately converted into heat, thats not true.You made the calculation without the chloroplasts! Theres a lot of them in our world  So theres a lot of light ultimativly NOT converted into heat, but into growth! Thats COOLs: photo-chemical conversion, is exactly NOT heat! Except you insist the photo-chemical excitation of the reaction center is a "heat transfer", and the center is "an oven"... but it's not,, the reaction is not exthermic, its chemical USE of that energy to construct structures of carbon.... its electric impulse, chemical energy... not thermic energy (heat)! Only the photons that are not catched for photosythesis are absorbed turning thermically into heat. Just wanna say...


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> Yes, I was just looking quickly for the affordable UVA lights with a high power rating. This is probably not the right choice for a growing application in any case.
> 
> I'm wondering if "black light" flourescents are suitable, they seem to be the easiest to get, and cheap. I've also seen that there are flourescents with a special plastic coating so they won't splinter all over the place when broken. It sounds like a good idea, since breaking flourescents are toxic.


While blacklights have a spectrum within the UVA range, it coes not encompass the entire range of 315 to 400 nm. It's actually quite a narrow spectrum, only between 350 and 400, peaking around 370. Personally I am of the opinion that you want uvb in addition to uva.


----------



## phrygian44 (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Plus zerozero-sieving the tumbled twisla with a 200 mesh turn ...
> ...  It might boggle their mind if they could try that


Hey, man. what a wealth of invaluable information. it's greatly appreciated. <three thumbs up>

there's so much to learn if you're starting from scratch and have never done this before (_i always hate learning something new, because i know that I'm going to run into all kinds of problems on the fist couple of runs, and I over-analyze everything to shit - and this bothers me until i can wrap my head around the concepts of what I'm doing. but after a couple of runs, and i've worked out most of the kinks, I'm then happy and confident and start tweaking things to death to get the process down to perfection. that's when i'm happiest - *and then i get bored*. lmao_), and your post points out so many of the pitfalls and problems that i would encounter along the way, to which you've already learned from and shared this information.
so, so many thanks for this knowledge, and for the information with the growing lights, too. I may get into indoor, eventually, but right now I have a garden greenhouse for seedlings that i start in early March, and then out in the ground they go on the May 24 long weekend (pronounced two-four, or two-fer if you're a French Canadian, eh?  ). 24 came from the case of beer you got for the long weekend, which contains 24 beers, so the name has stuck for 50 years, now. 

PS I can't contribute much here in way of making hash or indoor tent growing, but if you need to know anything about compost or composting, check out my series of articles in  Forums>The Grow Room>General Marijuana Growing>DoItYoursef  

and don't hesitate to ask if you have any question. i enjoy helping others (and would never not appreciate you giving me a blast of your primo, and then not paying you back in kind) 

PPS there were dick-heads in my day too back in the 70's, so nothing much has changed since then, other than now you have this weird thing called FaceCrap, that sucks the time and life outta everyone.


----------



## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> Personally I am of the opinion that you want uvb in addition to uva.


I have somethiong for you to think about....
You need an umbrella for the rainy days, correct.
But theres not always rain at the moment.
How do you detect if it could be rainy day and you would need an umbrella.....
Right, only the dark clouds is what you look for to decide!

If it suddenly starts raining out of clear sky (switching the UVB on for no reason)... you get wet... the plants get damage, thats all!


You dont need the rain, for the plants the recognize the dark clouds and prepare..... because they are evolutionary programmed like IF THERE WAS that UVB under the real sun over millions of years, it's hard wired programmed inside them... you dont actually need the real UVB causing the damage.... only to trigger the photolyase..... google this word, it may help to find out what that means!



> *Photolyases* (EC 4.1.99.3) are DNA repair enzymes that repair damage caused by exposure to ultraviolet light. These enzymes *require visible light (from the violet/blue end of the spectrum) both for their own activation[1] and for the actual DNA repair.*[2] The DNA repair mechanism involving photolyases is called photoreactivation. They mainly convert pyrimidine dimers into a normal pair of pyrimidine bases.


THIS grows resin, believe it or not! Not UVB! It's a myth! Photlyase is the trigger! The efficient LED-chips are just right there... the RESULTS are there! People tried it with UVB bulbs since 30 years and NEVER succeeded You dont need them for 25thc strains.... but you need these UVA chips for +35thc.... just realise it! More and more people find out! Im not making this up!



PJ Diaz said:


> Personally I am of the opinion


Dude, im not stating my opinion.... im presenting to you facts that you can check or let it be... your decision!


----------



## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> The chemical splitting of 2 hydrogen from 2hydrogene with1 oxygene, called "water", via light, called "photosythesis" is NOT a conversion into heat, but a conversion of energy into accumulation of complex molecules in an organical beeing, called "growth"..... the bud is only ultimately converted into heat if i burn it. So long I don't do it.... it is not yet light converted into heat  Dont say every light is ultimately converted into heat, thats not true.You made the calculation without the chloroplasts! Theres a lot of them in our world  So theres a lot of light ultimativly NOT converted into heat, but into growth! Thats COOLs: photo-chemical conversion, is exactly NOT heat! Except you insist the photo-chemical excitation of the reaction center is a "heat transfer", and the center is "an oven"... but it's not,, the reaction is not exthermic, its chemical USE of that energy to construct structures of carbon.... its electric impulse, chemical energy... not thermic energy (heat)! Only the photons that are not catched for photosythesis are absorbed turning thermically into heat. Just wanna say...


I wasn't referring to photosynthesis at all. I was referring to the fact that when short wave radiation (visible light) hits an object, it is converted to long wave radiation (heat).


----------



## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> I have somethiong for you to think about....
> You need an umbrella for the rainy days, correct.
> But theres not always rain at the moment.
> How do you detect if it could be rainy day and you would need an umbrella.....
> ...


While you make some good points, there is also evidence and studies which suggest that short blasts of uvb light can increase thc production as a result of the plant protecting itself from perceived damage. The key is short blasts, which aren't long enough to cause real damage, but are ample to trigger the "repair" process. I can find some documentation for you if you are interested.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Anesia didn't reproduce 37% thc with short blasts of UVB..... if that would work... you would have that results in the 1980s man....
You seem kindo blocked and too much into UVB.... you dont WANT to give it up.... people try it so looong... IT DOES NOT WORK... no matter in the laboratory short bvurst do this or do that.... wtf...

So I give up!

Try this thread:





UVA to Increase Potency?


Found this from the Black Dog site; "From our own research grows, Black Dog LED has demonstrated that UVA light alone can increase THC and CBD production in Cannabis plants. The combination of UVA and UVB light (from a standard "reptile bulb" fluorescent light) also increases THC and CBD...



www.rollitup.org






> Black Dog LED has demonstrated* that UVA light alone can increase THC* and CBD production in Cannabis plants. The combination of UVA and UVB light (from a standard "reptile bulb" fluorescent light) also increases THC and CBD production,* but the inclusion of UVB in the light has noticeable detrimental effects on plant growth compared to only UVA*.



So much proof everywhere, even the blackdog pink cold craplights feature it nowaydays 

Again whats the reason for UVB at all, when UVA can raise THC and have better growth same time, isn't that more THC in total on totally more buds??


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Anesia didn't reproduce 37% thc with short blasts of UVB..... if that would work... you would have that results in the 1980s man....
> You seem kindo blocked and too much into UVB.... you dont WANT to give it up.... people try it so looong... IT DOES NOT WORK... no matter in the laboratory short bvurst do this or do that.... wtf...
> 
> So I give up!


I've seen side by side tests which suggest otherwise. The jury is still out of this, and the science is still young. Here is something for you to read:





UV and plants – UV4Plants Association







www.uv4plants.org


----------



## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

Also how UVB affects cannabis is largely strain dependent..



https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-1097.1987.tb04757.x


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Maybe it increase because the UVB decreased the biomass by beeing bad for the growth of the biomass, just the resin is fine with it.... whatever. I wanted to be out... have fun with experiencing UVB and believing in it..... but in the end, the UVA LED emitters mentioned work fine out. increase THC AND promote growth AND are safer than UVB, so I dont care whatever you bring up with UVB... UVA is just better in achieving the goal.... i just wish you well, take care your eyes during your grows.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Maybe it increase because the UVB decreased the biomass by beeing bad for the growth of the biomass, just the resin is fine with it.... whatever. I wanted to be out... have fun with experiencing UVB and believing in it..... but in the end, the UVA LED emitters mentioned work fine out. increase THC AND promote growth AND are safer than UVB, so I dont care whatever you bring up with UVB... UVA is just better in achieving the goal.... i just wish you well, take care your eyes during your grows.


"maybe" so, and maybe not. maybe a bit condescending for sure.

I actually don't typically add UV these days, as my current fixtures already have ample UV. As mentioned I do have a UVB lamp, which I don't really use, but I plan to test it out in a local greenhouse who is having issues with their red lettuce getting properly red due to the UV-block on the double-walled poly roof. I'm fairly confident that I can get their lettuce to redden up with the right amount of additional UVA/B.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

The claimed evidence for the UV-B perception sounds interesting... but i see no reference on that side you posted. Its just a claim.... and they say a lot about UV-B... but only few sentence about UV-A , that it is regulatory and high amount damagers, sorry this is no valuable informationi to me... there are no sources for the claims, there is'nt even an impressum. This is not a scientific source.
" _*International Association for Plant UV Research*_ "

And im the international associated wizard of talking bullshit in forums.... 
Same scientific quality...

Please dont quote the international association of the wizards of oz next.... these are not authorities to take serious! It's just some webmasters...

International associatation that are scientifically studying UV for plants are called "universities" 

In fact there is lot of evidence for UV-A perception, what the side doesn't mention with a word, maybe they mistyped UV-B for UV-A in that text... its called "*PHOTOLYASE"* and its *UV-A*-perception, not UV-B, i still recommend you to learn on that. Because that perception really exists in plants









Lighting Strategies for Higher Terpene and THC Content in Cannabis


The type of ultra-violet light you use makes all the difference for getting the most out of your plants.




www.greenhousegrower.com






> Cannabis plants have their own similar system of blocking damaging UVB: increased trichome and cannabinoid production (CBD, THC, and many others) coupled with increased terpene production. *These natural sunscreens are produced with exposure to both UVA and UVB light, although only UVB damages the plants’ DNA*. *UVA is the safest and least likely to cause adverse damage in plants while still triggering this photomorphogenic response.*
> 
> Exposing plants in indoor cultivation facilitie*s to UVA light can, therefore, increase terpenes, antioxidants, flavonoids, THC, CBD, and vitamins, without causing excessive damage to plants or inducing skin cancer in workers.* This makes it the best form of UV light available for indoor cultivation, which is why it is the only form of UV in the Phyto-Genesis Spectrum by Black Dog LED.


What you want with UVB the environmentthat you, the gardenerer regularly step up...thats not sane IMHO, when UVA does the trick alone! There is no extra need for UVB except you like tod amage your plants and yourself when you forget shutting it off.


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> And im the international associated wizard of talking bullshit in forums....


I don't disagree with you there. 

I gotta run now, but I'll try to find some evidence for you later. Colleges and Universities? Yes, I have heard of them. Oh hey look I'm employed by one.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Must be a U.S.-university regarding yourknowledge. No wonder. In germany you would have been sent to the special school for such level of ignorance.
Im arrogant, but you are ignorant ;=) *"Understand the photoylases"*
I only reepeat that from know on...  until you learned what it means! Mister proffessor!


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## Gdp1 (Sep 30, 2021)

Lockedin said:


> Probly right.
> Guess I've been running hot lately.
> 
> One thing (among MANY) I've learned from all of my weed endeavors - generosity.
> ...


Great vibe and that the exactly y I grow also .This wonder plant is meant to be shared to friends and family I not saying give everything out but the littlest amount would still easy one stressd


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

These claim yours that you would need 280nm...





UVR8 Chemical Profile Shaping in Cannabis — AgricUltra™ Advancements


The potency of high quality marijuana increases in direct ratio to the amount of UVB light it receives.




www.agricultra.com





Still they admit that UVA enhaces and lowers the amount of UVB needed to trigger the effect...

I say you dont need UVB at all, to trigger the response of the phytolyase increasing the trics... you want all the spectrum from 365 up to 420nm-... yes... also the exotic-violet 420/430 are important to trigger the secondary metabolites.... actually the white spectrum lacking 400-435 completely... no matter you add up UVA... you would need all of it.... the more you get down the spectrum, the less intensity is needed. When you have 430, have 405, have 395, have 385, have 365... YOU DEFINETLY DONT need UVB too to have EVERY secondary metabolites plus the THC higher too... because it absorbs that radiation too, not only UVB, and that UVA radiation is triggering more trics too! SIMPLE AS THAT

UVB cant replace 430, 405,395, 385,375.... but THOSE drive the metabolites, the flavonoids, the terpenes, and the THC higher.... needless to extra introduce tiny right intensity of UVB when you already have all of them other that drive it max.... that doesnt give shit extra anymore using additional UVB on the farest end of the spectrum... wich is by fact damaging growth!


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## PJ Diaz (Sep 30, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Must be a U.S.-university regarding yourknowledge. No wonder. In germany you would have been sent to the special school for such level of ignorance.
> Im arrogant, but you are ignorant ;=) *"Understand the photoylases"*
> I only reepeat that from know on...  until you learned what it means! Mister proffessor!


Welcome to my ignore list, your royal rudeness.


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## CheGueVapo (Sep 30, 2021)

Thats what ignorant people do... they ignore! Thanks for proving my initial statement!


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## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 1, 2021)

Instead of ignoring each other, isn't this something that should rather easily be detectable when you actually grow plants?

If the effect is actually strong enough for this to be useful, we don't even need German Universities, can test it ourselves.

What I'd like to know is, which wavelengths have been proven to work, and in what amounts and when during the grow.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 1, 2021)

Its about people looking for the "one" wavelength.... but there is no such...
Look what the sun does:

See how tiny UVB is? Itls relatively so small.... that its energeticly nearly irrelevant.... except for the damage it does!
Therefore it is IN-effective


The people ignore... that the THC and resin is product of synthesis that requires energy. This process needs a lot of energy! In nature it comes from *this range 300-430, *UVB is simply not enough.... thats what the plant learned to react to the sun-levels, its there sensor... whenthere is high UVA, the plant assumes that there is also high damaging UVB... and that triggers, not the UVB damaging itself.... the UVA-photons energy drive the resin to protect from the UVB! Thats the correct order of how it works!

*this range 300-430, is exactly what all LED-lamps LACK completely..... just ignoring... just ignorance! WHY?*

How could you believe having nothing, just not a single micromole in the HOLE UVA range between the UVB and Royalblue could be fine! *How can you BELIEVE that?*

You have the choice between two triggers....
The damagingtrigger (UVB)
Or the repairing trigger (UVA)
You can take both... but ONE is enough to raise THC... pick wisely! What you pick? Damage or repair or both?

I choose repair for same time better grow and more MASS with MORE THC! Not less mass with more THC!

People think UVB can get them a shortcut, but it does not work this way! The energy for the resin-protection drives from the UVA-photons when there are high.... to protect from high UVB..... just damaging them with UVB without having the repair radiations energy to drive the resin synthezing is senseless.

It is more effective to have multiple wavelength for the hole range from 360 up to 430... that increases ALL secondary metabolites and also THC *PLUS this is aiding the growt**h*... far more than UVB can ever drive, thats not aiding the growth but damaging it...
You cant go high UVB energy.. because it is DAMAGING! No energy of any UVB-photon is used by plants.... they speculate about the evidence for some magic switch... but where should come the energy from.... from the black leaves you produce with high UVB? Fine do it, try it! Than you have more THC on a sick plant, wohoo, because you forgat the UVA-repair-radiation, haha.... UVA does not damage instead with moderate intensity.... like you see... like the sun!

UVB without UVA does not work... only damaging. So picking only UVB was thewrong decision.... plants dead, with UVB,you must have UVA too...
but UVA without UVB DOES work! Promoting metabolites and THC....

You dont need to be genius to see it... just start forgetiing about UVB and finally take a look and try at UVA.... you wont be disappointed from THAT.

It's good old mother natures recipe... i dont argue with someone who thinks beeing "employed at a university" is a qualification..... what beeing employed, cleaning the windows... emptying thetrashbins or cleaning the WC? Cant be anything else. He is not even able to argue upon UVA... he put me on ignore, not me him! I repeat, i am arrogant, but he is ignorant!

The theory that UVB is neccessary under artificial lighting to grow more THC is just false....this is NOT the way nature operates. The hole myth only exists because someone found a correlation between the UVB and the habitate where it naturally grows higher THC..... but theres more UVA too! This doesn't fit their BIAS, so they IGNORE IT and keep on trying prroving what UVB might do... simply ignoring UVA at ALL

They try to proof it since the 70s that there is a beneficial effect, it's more like a religion... but still it's not true! It's just damaging!

In fact its the same story than with MMS chlordioxine....suuuure it aids you, its help you, triggers your imune system, cleanse heavy metals out of you, but only in your imagination... by making you sick befor making you a popstar. Same argue they bring for the UVB theory.....

They claim +17% more THC with UVB but that they really mean is that a 15% THC strain before was now measured with 17,55% THC... lol thats their proof for UVB aiding, thats an increase of 17%... only really increased +2,55 percent-points lol... while the guys from Anesia grow 37% THC weed with the UVAs and get rich by tricking you its the strain, just buy it and you have it... NOOOOOO you need the UVA... not the UVB lulz and buying the strain is not enough.

Enough words wasted.


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 1, 2021)

I have never used a UVA bulb, but I do consider Horticulture Lighting Group (HLG) one of the industry leaders for building amazing LED lights. They offer a UVA attachment for their HLG 550, HLG 600 Rspec, HLG 650R, Scorpion Rspec, and Scorpion Diablo lights. However from reading about it they use 365nm and 385nm chips.

Definitely something worth looking into in the future. Especially since you can have it on another timer.









HLG 30 UVA SUPPLEMENT


Waterproof 30 watt UVA LED BAR designed for 12 hr. cycle in a 4' x 4' or 5' x 5' space. Passive cooled, 24 inches in length with built in power supply. Bolt on installation for any HLG 550, HLG 600 Rspec®, HLG 650R, Scorpion® Rspec®, and Scorpion® Diablo.




horticulturelightinggroup.com


----------



## phrygian44 (Oct 1, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> The chemical splitting of 2 hydrogen from 2hydrogene with1 oxygene, called "water", via light, called "photosythesis"


Whoa! again. first with the Socratic philosophy, now with the chemistry? 

what's next? quantum field dynamics of resinous spin particles at the plank scale, and how they interact with vibrating strings that produce energy fluctuations in the Higgs field, which in turn produces psycho-concious dissipation effects in human synaptic neuron transfer after
Tetrahydrocannabinol molecules have passed through the blood/brain barrier? 
looking forward to it.


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## Token Dankies (Oct 1, 2021)

No word back from urbandictionary, I don't think my definition was politically correct enough for them. Shoulda been approved already but cuckerbergs run the show now.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 1, 2021)

Token Dankies said:


> No word back from urbandictionary, I don't think my definition was politically correct enough for them.


I think that's not the reason unless you have crossed certain lines.

Their "review" should be nothing more than a quick check if the entry makes sense at all. Let's wait a few more days.


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## phrygian44 (Oct 1, 2021)

there's a considerable amount of _consolidated _information on light systems and light absorption in this post (that you would otherwise have to look up from multiple different source over several days), along with good open debate and opinions. <two thumbs up> count your blessings that we all live in countries and at a time when information like this can be shared, and that we have open forums like this.


----------



## Token Dankies (Oct 1, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> there's a considerable amount of _consolidated _information on light systems and light absorption in this post (that you would otherwise have to look up from multiple different source over several days), along with good open debate and opinions. <two thumbs up> count your blessings that we all live in countries and at a time when information like this can be shared, and that we have open forums like this.


Seriously, when my delivery gets here I will spark up a big hooter in your name. Got some Mother Tongue drying right now that I won't give myself the opportunity to taste early cause I wanna enjoy her in all her glory.


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## phrygian44 (Oct 1, 2021)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I think that's not the reason unless you have crossed certain lines.
> Their "review" should be nothing more than a quick check if the entry makes sense at all. Let's wait a few more days.


i think the entire weight of RollItUp needs to bear down on UDic, as we use this word in our forum (3 occurrences in the last two days, if I'm not mistaken), and need a direct, definitive, definite definition if we are to understand what it means and use it correctly. 
; )

Avoid Alliteration, Always


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Definitely something worth looking into in the future.


Must correct you: Definitely something worth looking into *NOW*. DIY dont need to wait for commercial products, dont need to wait for scientific detailed proof and explanation about how this at that, what counts is only one thing: In practice, in *THE FIELD*, it turns out to work. Thats proof enough to have it... now, dont wait until you are last one getting it 

Usually anyone who fidns out, shuts the fuck up.
Breeders are silent, just getting the laboratory prrof for their new high thc strain... but they know it but are silent about HOW to do it, of course, because its their business interest. They are in advance, ahead the others. Why should they tell everyone?

So if you want a proof anddont believe all the peopl that tell you UVA is working.... you must wait for bugbee connecting the dot and delivering the stochastic approval and for lamp manufactures to bring it to you.-... hey just wait another 5 years until market integration, cool bro! I dont need to wait that! I find out myself in the field practicing!


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

@PJ Diaz

*The UV4Plants managing committee*

Prof. Gareth Jenkins (President), Glasgow University, U.K.
Prof. Éva Hideg (Vice-President), University of Pécs, Hungary.
Prof. Marcel Jansen (Former President), University College Cork, Ireland.
Dr. Frauke Pescheck (Secretary), Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel, Kiel, Germany.
Prof. Susanne Neugart (Treasurer), Georg-August-Universität Göttingen, Göttingen, Germany.
Dr. Justyna Łabuz (Communications Officer), Jagiellonian University, Kraków, Poland.
Dr. Gyula Czégény (ESR member), University of Pécs, Hungary.
Dr. Qing-Wei WANG (overseas member), Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), Shenyang, China.
Prof. Javier Martínez Abaigar (member), Universidad de La Rioja, Spain.
Dr. Shyam Pariyar (member), University of Bonn, Germany.

Instead of just coming up with this Association "to read" i would have been better if you had posted a conrete issue to read and not some general blabla of them without sources links mentioned, just some text and claims without scientific measure.

For example why haven't you posted this link of them:





View of Vol. 2020 No. 1







bulletin.uv4plants.org





It contains a lot of good information from a scientific standpoint, and i dint meant to undermine these guysimportant work.

They are just not in the field because they are not the crop gardeners, neither are they the lamp-manufacturers. They miss view from those perspectives.

I just say introducing the ALL the chips 370nm, 385nm, 395nm, 405nm and 430nm is MORE than just enough to rise the secondary metabolites and the cannabinoids to lot higher stake, than you can at all only do by adding just UVB to a standard royalblue-pumped white.... because that Lamp still would miss the complete range from 360-420... not a single photon. But THAT range is the repair radiation range with energy aids the photolyases process AND the photosynthesis too. Its facts... these information of them in detail proof it! Theres a lot of talking about the "blue" spectrum... and they dont mean just royalblue..... youcant just add up more ands more royalblue and ignore the range 400-430.... thats a third of the visible blue range, actually missing any photons in LED-grow lights, not talking about the near end of UVA at all...... that photons aid the photosynthesis... bugbee sees that, because somespecies found to take high use of it in grow chamber... now think about helmp/cannbis a high intense light plant. Of course it does take use of it... the hole resin is in fact an absorber for just this reason... to catch that energy and take use of it to protect the seeds from UVB and the UVA too.

Im sorry that this is just field knowledge, working in the field with plants, constructing lamps for the field.... and my claim is: Forget about the UVB, think about yourself security first!!!... get UVA/deepblue emission well raisingly balanced like the sun intensities before you think about UVB first! If you got that... then try with additional UVB... im *FINE *with that and i recommend you to *not* make any mistakes at any time with your high intensity cancer beamers! Otherwise... Just dont cry if shit happens, in the FIELD with your actual crop and with your SKIN and EYES! You have only one life! One skin and two pair of eyes... there is NO REPLACEMENT parts.

Just that... see the BIG PICTURE of it all, like me! These professors dont see it... sorry! They just trying to proof the theories the have in mind with their clues in theories.... they are not practisioning crop growers, they are not manufacturing of lamps, and they are not the doctors in the hospitals aiding the patients, the victims of themselves stupidity regarding experementing this kind of radiation, UVB.... but I am, i learned lessons, and I am experienced with my DIYs and high intensity cannabis grows over decades, i had anything HPS, DIY-HP-Monos, then DIY-COBs plus monos, then strips plus monos... and anytime I add up another range of deepblue or UVA a chip... it improves! the resin, the smell. They are just scientists and mathematics looking for a quick-cheat proofing with evidens theres angenetic trigger on UVB.... fuck that shit.... because EVEN IF THATS CORRECT but just adding a little bit of UVB does not work without having the UVA/deepblue energy to protect from that. Than you triggered it but damaging your plant... finally killign it continuing without UVA... thats stupid. Damn you dont need to be genius to understand these processes. They are less a brainer then liming agents and ph buffer capacities 

Simple and easy:
Primarily you want UVA its a non damaging extra energy delivering TRIGGER. primarily too, you want to protect yourself as thegrower.
If you have that and secured your protection.... then you may want the extra damaging UVB trigger... because you can afford it, since the UVA energy repairs the damage.
If you do so.... stay sober before you open up the box.... "forgetting it beeing so high or stoned" is a NO-GO!!! could lead you to cancer, blindess and finally death! No JOKE! So think about it first!


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## phrygian44 (Oct 2, 2021)

I'm a wanna-be botanist so, i know how plants absorb light and use photons and photosynthesis and all that, and im an electronic engineer, plus physics is one of my hobbies, so i totally know about emf and spectrum and photonic energy, etc.

what i know absolutely nothing about is how good or how not so good these new led light systems are.
I read all the marketing collateral, and their products all sound so wonderful, and that they know exactly what they're doing, so the bandwidth and intensities of their led's are just perfect for what you need. They even have a couple of extra IR and Blue leds added to the panel, covering every bit of spectrum and energy levels that your plant can ever want.

Again, this i all know and understand - it all makes sense to me.

So what i want to know is, and i know im going to get a backlash for asking such a newbie question on these entry-level products, but i dont have the coin to get these higher-level systems that we've been taking about here, but it's a good question to ask, as there are many newbies and long-term growers that are just transitioning to LEDs that don't know shit about this.

Therefore, how good are these entry-level led panels on Amazoniatron, from Mars Hydro, Spider Farmer and the like?

They seem like industry reputable companies, dedicated to providing exactly what they say they're offering, and the prices are very attractive, with nice, solid, expandable configurations.

So what's the lowdown on these?


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Usually they dont state the total System Efficiency or the total radiant Power in Watts only electrical power and Photonefficiency.
Thats not the same.

Most lamps are far below 3 PPE Systemeffiecies, not higher than 60% efficiency. There is better possible with lower currents and lots of chip you can reach higher than 70% efficiency conversing electrical power into PAR radiation the desired spectrum.

Finding out what a commercial LED light is really capable of isn't easy to determine. You need a lot of knowledge and you need data from those lamps.

The Mars panels are well established. Can't say anything bad....

But ALL commercial lamps in my eyes are "not good fixtures", the blackdogs and the migro are the best example for CRAPLAMPS....
not the best chips is the normal, dont caring fixture standard, its just a chipholder, theres plenty of room left for improvement... that you can have TODAY with a DIY!
If you want the best possible, you must build it yourself. They take it slow to exploit you constantly buy new lamps, year by year a little improvement buyable commercially, because the learn slow and the establishing of new tech and ideas takes soooo long to reach the market even if anything is available... FIRST they must sell off their old chips.... but you can get everything today, not relying on those commercialists that are only interested in your money... not into giving you the best lamp! What they sell you tomorrow then whhen you have the best lamp already that keeps up working 90% luminance the next 13 years... they DO NOT WANT THAT ..... only your money! They proceed slow ON PURPOSE! They usually sell "high AMP" ON PURPOSE... you can throw that away after 3 years because lumince decreases significantly :/

I like to create my own LED-lamps from scratch to reach further than anyone except me can imagine.
Follow me crafting a high tech lamp-fixture for a ultraefficiency LED-lampsystem here:





Cooling LEDs via ir-emission to heat plants same time (new cooler concept art)


The mission: Take use of the remaining electricity power of the LED-lamp in terms of excess heat, that is currently in general designs heating the cooler, than passed via convecting ribbs to the air above the lamp to the exhaust-ventilation, instead to take that heat and use it as radiation to...



www.rollitup.org


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## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 2, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> to reach further than anyone except me can imagine


I like your ambition!


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

I stayed always down on the carpet.... it's just my carpet.... it can fly! 
Let me try the impossible to find out whats really possible. Limits? Thats not in my vocabulary!


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## Casanova Frankenstein (Oct 2, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Thats what ignorant people do... they ignore! Thanks for proving my initial statement!


Put a cork in it Rain Man


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## Casanova Frankenstein (Oct 2, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> I stayed always down on the carpet.... it's just my carpet.... it can fly!
> Let me try the impossible to find out whats really possible. Limits? Thats not in my vocabulary!


Maybe stop getting rug burns on der pooper chutein ….


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## MICHI-CAN (Oct 2, 2021)

Casanova Frankenstein said:


> Put a cork in it Rain Man


Missed the drama. Happy for that. Must agree with ignore button as demonstration or admission of one's own indulgence in such. 

Should be I'm opinionated sand ignorant. With a public counter on number of times they cowardly exited. 

Peace to all. A very big world.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

I have a spamming bullshit groupy behind my ass who is now following me and releasing only OT-spamm. Is there a yummy shit-saussage hanging off my ass that is so attractive to some for dinner; has somebody left the pig-barn open? I need a nail gun, now! To make it stop paining!


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## Casanova Frankenstein (Oct 2, 2021)

Chewy Chulupa sounds to a bit closeted ….. your condescending attitude to new growers and even seasoned growers is pathetic. 
I am sure there are growers that have plenty of “ good “ advice on pushing ripeness ….. from light cycle manipulation / UV , etc.

Most have probably grown longer than your sexual transition time. Stop belittling growers on this BS bag seed crusade.

Maybe grab a 25 pound bag of rice and spend your wacky time counting each kernel instead.


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## MICHI-CAN (Oct 2, 2021)

Alright people. You can push it until the plant dies as it is genetically designed to do. And then let nature and fall's temperature further ripen outdoor still in soil and on plants. Indoor is much shorter window. 

Try discussing and not disgusting forms of communication to get answers. 

Peace and amber will make you peaceful.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Peace makes you peaceful. Thats right! Peace is far




Start thinking; or go fuck yourself!


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## Budzbuddha (Oct 2, 2021)

Anyone push the “ Force Finish “ light cycle on them ?
Incremental drop in light vs dark time … 12/12 - 11/13 - 10/14 . Etc.


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## Budzbuddha (Oct 2, 2021)

Or Gas Lantern cycle


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## MICHI-CAN (Oct 2, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> In most equatorial regions, cannabis can germinate at almost any point in the year, and *can grow almost all year round*
> It is not genetically programmed, but seasonally. There is absolutely no genetical death... it just goes into revegg and grows on!
> 
> 
> ...


As you described seasonal death which is genetic. Were it not they would be perennial. Thank you for the laugh. Enjoy your education. 

Peace.


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 2, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Must correct you: Definitely something worth looking into *NOW*. DIY dont need to wait for commercial products, dont need to wait for scientific detailed proof and explanation about how this at that, what counts is only one thing: In practice, in *THE FIELD*, it turns out to work. Thats proof enough to have it... now, dont wait until you are last one getting it
> 
> Usually anyone who fidns out, shuts the fuck up.
> Breeders are silent, just getting the laboratory prrof for their new high thc strain... but they know it but are silent about HOW to do it, of course, because its their business interest. They are in advance, ahead the others. Why should they tell everyone?
> ...


look I’m not saying I am going to wait a year to look into this. But with being 6-7 weeks into flower by the time I source something and build it I’ll be 2 weeks away from cutting down my plants. I just mean that for my next grow I will use UVA in flower. I was just pointing out that HLG now has an add on kit for lights that are very popular.

but as you stated earlier it’s not a full UVA spectrum. Its only two of the 4-5 chips that you really need. I’m not a commercial grower. It’s personal grows for me. So I guess since I am planning on how I will implement for next grow that does mean I am thinking about it now. Just as I said. where I am at in flower I don’t see the point into rushing into a solution yet.

regardless thank you for pointing out the information.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

MICHI-CAN said:


> seasonal death which is genetic.


No you simply didn't listened with attention and twist anything around to fit your nonsense, I describ seasonal death as beeing determined by the season, the climate, not by the genes... the genes determine to continue life, thats survival. Thats the genes priority, even before reproduction! Death comes when the genes fail because of the season harshness. But still the seasonal death is not "genetic". My education is very good. Yours education is none!



When you float in open space-cosmos, without a space-suit and you die because of your genes have no programm to withstand the space-cosmos climate. You did not died because of your genes! But because of the harshnes sof the space! Im with stupid!


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## MICHI-CAN (Oct 2, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> No you simply didn't listened with attention and twist anything around to fit your nonsense, I describ seasonal death as beeing determined by the season, not by the genes... the genes determine to continue life, thats survival. Thats the genes priority, even befor reproduction! My education is very good. Yours is none!
> 
> View attachment 5000950


And again the genetics react to seasons. How is your shit flowering to begin. TOO FUNNY SMART GUY?? 

Again peace and I will no further ridicule you. 

Beat it.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

The gene react to anything... when i kill them with a knife chopping of the stem... and they had no gene against me... thats in your eyes because of the genes... ANYTHING IS JUST BECAUSE of the genes... how dumb are you, reducing everything onto the genes? Simple minded like a shrooom!


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Try learning the difference between: cause and effect.... or reason and impact.... or source and outcome... can you differ one from another or do you have no clue at all?
You mix up and just say anything is be CAUSE of the genes! Talking BS! Nonsense.
The CAUSE is the SEASONAL change..... the genes is just the REACTION.

The death is the CAUSE of the genes cant come out living certain climate impacts! They die in effect of the harsh climate..... not because of a "clock ticking".
The CAUSE of death is always the climate of the seasonal change.... the conditions! 

When they can withstand the climate, they survive, they fight. They survive beCAUSE of the seasonal changes beeing tolerable.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 2, 2021)

That's incorrect. The genetics are one cause, and the environmental conditions another.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

If you say so... the genes have no cause at all to die.... their cause is to secure living SOLELY... dont you get it. The cause for death is always something else than genes!

The gene tell us not to age... thats damage we sum up in life andour complex getting weaker and weaker..... it still tries everything to contiunue living.
Only in rare exemptions life programms itself to death, like the apoptosis on cellular level.

There is no killswitch gene except monsanto put one in!

Theres no logic in your claims! You mix up cause and effect! The simplest things on earth.


No life on earth goes like ... "oh well it might become a strong winter, lets not try it, lets die now, im gonna die whatever"
Thats stupid nonsense! Genes is Life, and Life is for the cause of living.

Life does not know depression and suicide! This phaenomnenois reserved to humans..... you wont find any suicidal ape!


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## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 2, 2021)

Cause and effect does not flow from one direction in a straight line. There are practically infinitely many causes interrelating, the result is what we call "reality" or "existence", if you allow me to get slightly philosophical here.

You need to turn down a few knobs, or else you will end up on a lot of ignore lists.

You have a lot of interesting things to say, but you are going overboard at the moment. Also, work on your grammar please (I'm German, too, it's possible).


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Hemp does not go suicidal only because reproduction is done and the weather gets colder.... it depends specifictly IF the weather ACTUALLY kills it!
SO not the genes are the cause... the climate CAN be... and it has nothing to do with the "genes" in general when the weather is able to kill it, like it is not your genes fault when your neibhor strikes you with an Gordon Ingram mac10.
It doesnt't mean your genes weren't ready for the .45 .... it just means the cause for your death was you've been shot!
Your genes only make a difference if he was white and you were black! Regarding who is fault to blame for the courts when YOU are dead! 
It was self-defense, OK, closed! 
Maybe his genes were faul, must be the genes, what else could be fault with a black man dying a white man shooting him down... the genes... of course. What else. Logic! Your logic... not mine. 

EDIT: I feel americans understand me better if i compare it with weapons and shootings


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## Budzbuddha (Oct 2, 2021)

*SIGH


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## DaFreak (Oct 2, 2021)

Budzbuddha said:


> Anyone push the “ Force Finish “ light cycle on them ?
> Incremental drop in light vs dark time … 12/12 - 11/13 - 10/14 . Etc.


I actually did once and saw zero difference.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Proboscidea are able to withstand space naked.....

Does it mean you as a human not having that genetic capability is dying in space because of your genes... thats a false simplification!

Edit: Tardigrada, i wanted to name!


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Here:


According to your logic, its your genes fault that you cant go without space-suit into space... but these theoretically CAN.... just bring them there... they survive.

Your genes fault you cannot.... go to evolution class and transform yourself into a higher beeing... or just jump from a bridge, 
I bet they not only better in function to survive in space, they have more beautiful face than you too high likely.... so if thats true, definetly go jump from a bridge 
Dont be angry, its your genes fault! You did nothing wrong  All your brainery doesnt protect you from space.... you wont survive 1 year without clothing and a house just because of a "normal winter". You are just a faulty genetically totally disrupted human who cannot even survive in space, on yourself you cant survive anything alone, and you cannot exterminate anything without a gun, just pissing your pants, you are practically exterminated when the firearms doesnt pick up the phone and you are only seeing flames around you .... pity with the piffling lower lifeforms. They are made from sugars! Just sacks of carbohydrates! One rain naked in the autumn and you die without your umbrellas returning to a warm house you gettin sick and cold flu covid wtf... die like a fly!

You are alive because of ONLY technology... not because of genes! Humans is a genetic failure... except the brain! But from what most exemplars of the species take use of it.... extermination of human race isn't that far distant in the future foreseeable... it comes closer and closer! Because of our collective stupidity! Is that genes fault? Or the EGOs of the few that are in control of the biggest chunk of corporate economy in the world? Dont know! Could be both! Could be our genes fault let us all that happen. Stockholm syndrome? 





The deep state? Your genes fault.....
The nazis killing the jews in WWII... their genes fault.
The americans having concentration camps for japanese BEFORE the war... the japanes genes fault 

I can proceed this on and on... to make it clear how stupid those assumptions are...


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## Budzbuddha (Oct 2, 2021)

Ok … what in the fuck does that or any of your ramblings have to do with the subject at hand ?


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

I was reffering and answering to this.


MICHI-CAN said:


> Alright people. You can push it until the plant dies as it is genetically designed to do.


And his rejectance to my explaination that this isn't true.
It does not DIE indoor! Short & Simple...

You can continue until it rotts away... because at some point it goes doing that... but the reason is not because its geneticall programmed, but because you cant manage the indoor conditions from preventing that thingy from rotting continuing on and on... his assumption is just wrong.

ALso this means not "to push" juist continue growing.... as the THC turns into CBN.... wtf back at you! That ha snothing to do with "pushing ripeness further"... it doesnt mean "flower longer".... false assumption... just flower loonger for pushing ripeness... he is sotally making stupid assumptions.

The assumptions he states about genes, anything is just genes fault... remember me about "eugenics"... and its BS! This is exactl ywhat the nazis did... reducing anything to just genes! Giving any reason or meaning only to the genes... like "your genes are fault you got in a car accident, because your genes let you be there at that place at that time... no matter the accident wasnt even your fault... its the your genes fault whatever it is..... thats a crazy wweltanschauung that could be straight from hitler personally, he was exactly that crazy too! Maybe he read "mein kampf" and liked it! Its full of this kind of bullshit!


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 2, 2021)

It’s a shame that we have forgotten the basic principles of how nature works. We live in an era where society has been taught that we need purchase everything, rather than re-utilize the world around us. But just for reemphasis look at red wood trees that are thousands of years old. They have 10-15 feet wide trunks and are massive. But we cut down too many of our forest or destroyed them during war, that few people have the luxury to view than anymore. It’s really just the Pacific Northwest in the United States any more and that’s entirely due to industrialization and nationalization in that America was colonized East to West. But even alligators are biologically immortal and that so long as they have a food source and aren’t killed they will live forever. (Makes you wonder about the mythical dragons, but not to go down that tangent). It’s humans that’s have destroyed the ecosystems of earth and who are naive enough to believe that technology is the solution. The Amazon rain forest is a self sustaining eco system and has actually a zero net loss water cycle. All the water in the Amazon rises and falls in the Amazon. But with that logic of having self sustained ecosystems that means the solution has to be catered to the local environment. 

I agree that there are technological solutions that do enhance modern societies and for me it’s about finding a balance of both and minimizing my impact on the earth. I have driven a car 3 times in the three years.

However, I do like where this thread has touched though on the importance of stressing soil, genetics, water, and lighting because it’s a combination of all of these. But everyone is going to have their solution as to what they prefer and find the “best”. There are people who pop new seeds every grow because they want to try a variety of things and never run the same strain twice. There are people who pheno hunt the same strain through hundreds of seeds to find the perfect mother and clone clone clone from there. There are people who also after every grow don’t chop the entire plant and just reveg the plant for a month and then flower it all over again.

I think that it is important to discuss the pros of cons of each though. Because not everyone wants the absolute highest THC numbers in the world. I realize the race to reach 50% THC already began and I’m just now walking up to the starting line. But I don’t think the industry as a whole would survive if that’s was the only choice and it had to be “cut” by sifting just so that the average user could consume it. There are times when I don’t want to be ripped out of mind, but at the same time I love smoking so much I want to smoke a blunt or two, but only want a mild buzz. It’s more relaxing for me to smoke the entire blunt and meditate in my mind rather than hit something once or twice and put it out.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Im with you most of it. Good posting, thank you for your opinions.


Slartibart4242 said:


> There are people who also after every grow don’t chop the entire plant and just reveg the plant for a month and then flower it all over again.


I wonder why they do that... one can re-use the soil, one can re-use clones from the same strain's mother... but WHY in hell should somebody do that, reflower an already flowered plant again.... thats waste of effort to my eyes. Also I think a second flower not going to be as intense than the first.

Its like a woman who never had a child and a woman who has had children already... who is hotter in investing everything to get preggy because the clocks ticking and who already faces the wall already having had the bell ring?  One has the right hormones... the other no more! One is young... the other old.

Wheres your best chances for healthy strong kids?  Right the younger, with the right hormones, who not had a child yet. She is ready. They other one is DONE!  haha, you can try the other, but when it comes down to quality, she could face problem, and then you must care her whining claiming your soldiers are to weak and YOU are fault when it is not working out  never the old ladies in their 50s with an empty box of eggs, how could think such....  Same for cannabis females...you want them barely legal for enyoing the best fruits. 

Anectote:
Paul and Emma have been couple for very long time. They had no children ever because thats what Paul didn't liked.
Now he has got a younger one and for a kid with her: Paul runs on a race, ... Emma is 48, single and stands there with(out) an egg on her face.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 2, 2021)

Grammatiknazis und Rechtsschreibrächer sind mir die Liebsten! Kleine Helden des Alltags die die Welt dringend braucht, wenn es bloß mehr Grammatiknazis gäbe, dann wären längst alle Probleme auf der Welt gelößt. Wirklich. Einfach jeden der sich weigert eine Autokorrektor einzuschalten einfach ne Cruisemissile rein ins Wohnzimmer schicken, ohne Diskussion! So muss das laufen... kost doch nix son kleines gelenktes Sprengköpfchen! Bezahlt wurden die doch schon! Aber erst wenn die abgeschossen werden muss man neue kaufen und produzieren... Angebot und Nachfrage. The show must go on! Immer her damit.... Kollateralschäden? Nur ein paar Kupftuchträger... die können nur "Vallah bilah, schwör bruder auf koran". Der CIA hat meine Position und Handynummer.... einfach triangulieren und DA HIN ... wird dann koordiniert aus Rammstein!  Mindestens 10 Spastis auf einmal erledigt, die morgen ne Terrorzelle gründen könnten und Flieger entführen und so Späßchen! Unser Land ist voll von denen! Ich opfer mich gerne!


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## phrygian44 (Oct 2, 2021)

If you want to know how far you can push your plant for ripeness, as well as understand what _that stage_ of ripeness actually means _*to you*_,
*and to try and get this thread back on track, *​may i suggest that you read my post on how you can easily do your own evaluation, and establish your own reference system.
​_





Toronto autumn 2021 - how are your plants doing?


YAY!!! I've checked-over the entire plant today with a 30X Jewelers Loupe, and i have two single amber trichomes. Ain't gonna be long, now, boys. lmao



www.rollitup.org




_​
@*CheGueVapo*
there is no question that you are very intelligent, have a vast amount of both experimental and practical knowledge on this subject, provide us with a wealth of invaluable information (appreciated), as well as come up with some excellent and practical theories (such as converting excess heat to beneficial IR radiation), but sometimes your arrogance just gets waaay outta control.

If you _*are *_smart, then everyone will see that and respect you for it. But if you keep telling everyone how smart you are, and how dumb everyone else is, then no one's going to bother to listen to you, no matter how smart or right you are. .


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## phrygian44 (Oct 2, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> ... There are people who also after every grow don’t chop the entire plant and just reveg the plant for a month and then flower it all over again.


now that is a very interesting thought. I have no ideal what my strain is (grown from a handful of seeds given to me), but I'm really liking the type of buzz so would like to regrow it again, and I've waited way too long to Monster Crop it, but transplanting a good portion of the bottom part of the plant outta my yard (instead of chopping the whole thing) sounds extremely appealing, and quite easy to do. 

anyone have any knowledge or success doing this?


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 2, 2021)

A very long time ago... I used to grow in a tiny cabinet that was roughly 24” wide 14” deep and only 32” tall. So I was limited to one plant that thought me how to train. It was different times and I only needed enough for me. Since I was limited to just one plant I would reveg it 3-4 times before I would try something new.

it’s very simple to do. Once you decide it’s time to cut down your flower, just cut at a node and leave 3-4 bottom nodes. I try to keep the canopy as even as possible at this point. So basically you just topped all your branches. Because of this you can really only do it a couple times before branches start getting too top heavy.

Say you top at the 5th node counting up for reveg. Next time you would have to cut at the 4th node or you would be splitting your branches again and now have four colas off that branch. So it’s something that you have to preplan your pruning for multiple grows if you plan on revegging again and again. But it’s really no different philosophy than maintaining a mother plant for cloning. Also, when you cut down your branches I wouldn’t pull the flowers off the branches I left for reveg.

so long as you didn’t seed the plant during flowering it didn’t get pregnant and produce baby seeds. So “next year” she typically really wants to get pregnant and can be a fiercer producer. However there was not lab testing at the time so I can’t provide lab testing results. But I would be willing to eventually do an experiment that compares the results for clones off a mother that one was the first run and the second would be the reveg results. I would grow a control of another set of clones when I reveg that way I can test for a control at the same time. And then repeat once again. So there would be 3 grow results:

clone set 1 vs clone set 1

clone set 2 vs clone set 1 reveg

clone set 3 vs clone set 2 reveg


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## Dr. Death (Oct 2, 2021)




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## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> ... Since I was limited to just one plant I would reveg it 3-4 times before I would try something new.
> 
> it’s very simple to do. Once you decide it’s time to cut down your flower, just cut at a node and leave 3-4 bottom nodes. I try to keep the canopy as even as possible at this point. So basically you just topped all your branches. Because of this you can really only do it a couple times before branches start getting too top heavy.
> 
> Say you top at the 5th node counting up for reveg. Next time you would have to cut at the 4th node or you would be splitting your branches again and now have four colas off that branch. So it’s something that you have to preplan your pruning for multiple grows if you plan on revegging again and again. But it’s really no different philosophy than maintaining a mother plant for cloning.


Awesome; mny thnx.
I had no plans on doing any mothering, and therefore had no idea that i would like the strain this much and want to regrow it again, and when i did decide, it was in its final stages of heavy flowering.
Yeah, the plan is to then mother it from there onwards, so if this works, that would be great.
Thnx again.


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## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> However there was not lab testing at the time ...


Now that lab testing is becoming more common, i probably will to find out what i got.

Doing generation testing for quality is an excellent idea, but i don't have the patience or setup for it at the presenttime, and i plan on adding 3 killer strains for next year, which will also then have to be mothered.

If I had a farm (and didn't have to work) i would setup a proper greenhouse, then i would just love getting down to that level of control.


----------



## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> anyone have any knowledge or success doing this?


I can tell you that the maroccan farmers buy their seeds from other farmers every two years that have higher located fields in the sun... if they dont do it their hash getting weaker and weaker season by season

If you believe a revegg going to have same quality than the first flowering, try that... you are not the first going down learning that road.
I dont think it is good or effective.

I just dont believe that you can keep up the quality, unless you have the lamp indoor that nobody has yet on the planet... the sun itself! And you can tweak it any aspect of spectrum and intensity... like the sun to immitate the right seasonal triggers. If you can immitate that with all the spectrum and high intensities... like in the higher regions of where it is home... then maybe you can success with that!

Theres people growing the same mother for multiple years.... they experience the same: The quality of the final product of the cuttings lowers.... its unavoidable, because the conditions dont require it to keep on doing that!

Thats basically because the indoor conditions are typically not even close to the suns-intensities in the places where cannabis comes from.... we actually cannot immitate that fully with artificial-lighting.

Thats why we have a lot of stuff to do and to find out! NIR, IR, near UVA, Violet-Deepblue.... who does know a shit? Nobody. But the Sun has higher intensities, is easy to cool, dont need wind, still low leaf temperatures, low conductance, need no co²... you know why? No, me neither! Its a miracle what shines down on earth


----------



## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

Im a fan of Victor Schauberger... he said: "Just understand nature and copy it"
But then there is the sun, it's more than just PAR. The big rest is more energy than PAR, PAR is just a small part of the energy.... but the sun sends more than 2000µmol only PAR on a clear sommer day..... and im NOT talking about high-mountain- or equatorial-regions, but the northern hemisphere continents.... where cannabis grows poorly (comparatively)

WTF, while indoor 1000µmol only PAR are great and intense..... ???

Does anybody understand that? Really? Please enlighten me. So I can copy it... but Im tryin for 15 years now and it's tough, really tough.... because the understanding is just low. It's not about the light energy... it's more about the water flux and temperature than anything else!


----------



## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Thats why we have a lot of stuff to do and to find out! NIR, IR, near UVA, Violet-Deepblue.... who does know a shit? Nobody.


Thnx, man. Yeah, i know. Reading all the marketing collateral from these grow lamps providers, they all come across like they think they know everything, and know exactly what they're talking about, and as you and i both know (being an engineer and hobby botanist and into physics), they aint coming anywhere close to imitating what the sun produces. (side note, and i hate these pocket energies when using LED's, thereby leaving gaping holes in the spectrum], but then lamps are so inefficient through heat waste, so what you're doing in building your own is the only way to go.

And as you also pointed out regarding where these plants originate from, the full sun is blazing down on them continually, where even I, (where i live up North and growing outdoors), do not even come close to the amount of sun that the plant is accustomed to. my only other option then is tenting, and i do not want to get into that at the moment, as i'm renting now, and don't want to created any havoc with the landlord. outside, he can't say much, as it's legal here in Kanada (note the German spelling.  ), but inside, where there's a possibility of electrical/fire issues, plus the smell permeating the entire house and walls (which would therefor increase my cost with venting in order to deal with that), he would be pissed and can possibly evict me. It's just not worth the bother at the present.

UVA is also interesting, as as you say it produces healing effects for the plant - good research <two thumbs up> - overlooked by the light manufacture experts, eh?

but as you notice from looking at the sun's spectrum, the amount of UVA intensity at that level is very small, and nowhere close to the intensity of the PAR levels, however, UVA sits at the higher end of the light frequency spectrum, which means there is more "total energy" available (think x- or gamma rays), so when normalized, from the plant's perspective, the low UVA intensity level may be just as significant. therefore, I suspect that the lamps output would have to be closely mirrored (or mimic'd) with the sun's level, in terms of net UVA energy that the plant is receiving. I don't think you can just buy a UVA lamp, and then blast the F out of the plant and expect not to do any damage, but i could be totally wrong here, as i have no experimental experience. 

I envy you in what you're doing - Kudos! would love to be doing the same if i had the time, money and place to do this. Keep us posted. 
Us Germans just love analyzing everything to death for maximum efficiency. _lmao_


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> I wonder why they do that... one can re-use the soil, one can re-use clones from the same strain's mother... but WHY in hell should somebody do that, reflower an already flowered plant again.... thats waste of effort to my eyes. Also I think a second flower not going to be as intense than the first.


I feel stupid even getting involved in this thread but here goes. 
I would harvest and reveg a plant if i felt it was a keeper. Foolishly didnt once, next time i wont make the same mistake.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

Why? Thats a valid argue. You want to have that again, and thats the easiest way. Totally legit. But you cant do that long, keeping it the way it was, thats the point.... regarding "keeper", it might change. If you like it that much in first place, get some seeds again...


----------



## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Im a fan of Victor Schauberger... he said: "Just understand nature and copy it"
> But then there is the sun, it's more than just PAR. The big rest is more energy than PAR, PAR is just a small part of the energy.... but the sun sends more than 2000µmol only PAR on a clear sommer day..... and im NOT talking about high-mountain- or equatorial-regions, but the northern hemisphere continents.... where cannabis grows poorly (comparatively)
> 
> WTF, while indoor 1000µmol only PAR are great and intense..... ???
> ...


yes, it baffles me too that everyone thinks that buying one of dem new LED panels, at 1000-2000 umol, with a poor attempt at reproducing the sun entire spectrum, is the perfect option. the problem is is that using these lamps does produce great result, to the _*uninitiated*_. but then again, they don't know any better, as they've never compared how their same plant would grow at high-mountain- or equatorial-regions (as you say). if they did see the difference, they'd be blown away, and then say "what kind of piece-of-shit lamp system did i buy?". lolol


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Why? Thats a valid argue. You want to have that again, and thats the easiest way. Totally legit.


Keepers dont come along very often


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> If you like it that much in first place, get some seeds again...


They were 10yr old regular beans. That breeder only offers fems now. 
Very few sprouted, and the lone female was a runt. Stunk of skunk even during veg. Frosty, strong and great flavor. Still kicking myself years later


----------



## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

Sometimes you must get over somebody


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

Back on topic.. I should have let that one go longer


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

Looks pretty ripe, low green and nice. Well done.

But i dont like whats got in the glass, looks so darkish gray. is that budrott?


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Theres people growing the same mother for multiple years....* they experience the same: The quality of the final product of the cuttings lowers.... its unavoidable, because the conditions dont require it to keep on doing that!*


 This bold statement is just flat out false. Its been proven time and time again over the years that clones don't just degrade over time. If you keep a happy healthy mother and/or replacement clones you can keep strong genetics indefinitely. 

If your plants get damaged by a virus, pathogen or genetic mutation from harsh conditions then sure they can degrade over time. But myself and millions of other growers have kept genetics for many years without any loss in quality or yields over time because we keep the plants healthy.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Its been proven time and time again over the years that clones don't just degrade over time. If you keep a happy healthy mother and/or replacement clones you can keep strong genetics indefinitely.




Quote me the source of the proof, please. Thank you in advance! I like to KNOW if thats true!


----------



## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> If you keep a happy


Blabla... yo you must give high intensity... or it does degrade, because it doesnt need to protect from light anymore.... your indoor lamp is not sufficient to make her that happy with so few µmols of a MotherVegg the people drive! Not say happy... but LIGHT-STRESSED.


It doesnt grow resin for the fun of it because its happy! Oh man!


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Quote me the source of the proof, please. Thank you in advance! I like to KNOW if thats true!


The purpose of the forum is to save and share knowledge. @Thundercat has been here a long time and doing just that.
"source of the proof"... lmao. 

Quick tip, Grow some plants, and share your knowledge


----------



## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

> *Let’s talk epigenetics and the environment*
> The field of epigenetics offers valuable insights for understanding how cannabis clones can appear to lose potency. Epigenetics refers to outside stimuli, or modifications, that can turn genes on or off. It’s not that there is an alteration of the genetic code in the clone; rather, environmental factors modify its genetic potential and expression.
> 
> 
> ...











Does cloning ruin cannabis strains over time?


Science says that clones are exact copies of their mother—so why do some strains degrade after years of cloning? Read on to find out why.




www.leafly.com





There you have it.... now whats your source of information?


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Does cloning ruin cannabis strains over time?
> 
> 
> Science says that clones are exact copies of their mother—so why do some strains degrade after years of cloning? Read on to find out why.
> ...


Silly muppet
Leafly is not a source.


----------



## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

The source isnt directly leafly, they just report and interview.


> said Russell Pace III, President of the *Cannabis Horticultural Association*.


Valid source enough. more valid than: having been long time in a forum saving and sharing knowledge...lmao




Boatguy said:


> Silly muppet







Please, little Motherfucker, just tell me when you want to stop the insulting.


----------



## Rurumo (Oct 3, 2021)

The idea that mother plants decline over time, or that clones decline over time as they are grown out and re-cloned, is just old bro-science. I've kept mother plants alive for 8 years with no decline in quality, and I know a guy with a White Widow mommy from 1995 that is still going strong.


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## CheGueVapo (Oct 3, 2021)

When you always smoke the same dope you dont even recognize what it was before. You are fine and satisfied, but you need smoke more and more. Bring it to the lab and proove to me it has the same THC after 8 years cloning from it.... i dont believe you!

One mistake is enough for a instant decline in quality of the cuttings! One single!


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 3, 2021)

So this article stresses that lighting soil nutrients and environment all play a role in the success of your clones and that if everything is maintained in optimal condition that you can maintain a healthy mother and multiple generations of clones with no degradation. It also states that there are very few scientific studies have been completed.

it also states that pregnant female plants do have a genetic change but that is only when they are pollenated and produce seeds. It did not state info about revegged plants that were not pollinated. Which is why I suggested doing an experiment with lab testing.

the articles point of remove pieces of DNA through taking cuttings assumes that one is taking cuttings from younger branches that haven’t matured losing the end strand of DNA. These are a result of not taking proper cuttings. I’m not saying that there is a perfect solution, but I think that these points expose a bigger issue with the industry and that is “breeding” or rather the fact that breeders rarely breed to genetic stability. Most of the seeds on the market are BX, F1-F3, but it’s rarer you find something that is a F9+ lineage. As a result if you were to analyze the DNA of 500 different seeds, you may find two that actually exhibit the traits you want. So expecting someone to be able to grow another seed and get the same results is slim. Which is why people are cloning in the first place. Reading breeders descriptions of their genetics they will list that there are 4 different phenotypes but in reality they are just claiming plant structure and not looking at cannabanoid or terpene profiles as well.

In America each state that has legalized has various growing laws. Some states only allow you to have 4 plants while others allow you to grow up to 12. That is not enough plants to run a successful breeding program, which is why we have to rely on larger grow operations for genetic stability.

so there isn’t just one solution to the problem. And because of a lot of factors the key is finding the solution to the problem at an individual level. We all don’t eat the same food, find the same people attractive, or all like the same bands. Why would everyone agree on a single solution like weed is a singularity?


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 3, 2021)

Cloning is also not a new idea: it’s at least 2,000 years old. Probably even older. People forget that things like cement were actually rediscovered, not discovered for the first time in modern society. And again even CRISPR uses nature’s process of repairing genes by manipulating the protein that is being repaired in the DNA strand. When DNA is repaired it grabs the closet protein available. So if the protein that is closest is changed then the DNA sequence is changed after it’s repaired. But my point is cannabis was not the first plant to be cloned nor will it be the last. And even tissue grafting happens all the time in nature. It easiest to view when you see an old tree stump that has a sapling growing out of it. The sapling is using the old trees root system. Understanding the processes of nature is the only way to advance “technology” but really it’s just learning the lessons of Gaia.

What is the most nutrient soil on earth and how is it created? Volcanic ash (also known as Azomite)

what breaks down the nutrients in nature and makes them bioavailable to plants? mycelium
what creates the terpene profiles of the various cannabis strains? The terpene profile of the soil the strain was naturalized to

how you use that knowledge is up to you. 






Cloning's not a new idea: the Greeks had a word for it centuries ago - Nature







www.nature.com


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## bk78 (Oct 3, 2021)

Fucking leafly hahaha


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## bk78 (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Does cloning ruin cannabis strains over time?
> 
> 
> Science says that clones are exact copies of their mother—so why do some strains degrade after years of cloning? Read on to find out why.
> ...


You going to start posting groweedeasy links next?


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> The source isnt directly leafly, they just report and interview.
> 
> Valid source enough. more valid than: having been long time in a forum saving and sharing knowledge...lmao
> 
> ...


If you really feel that way, you should keep reading there and ignore folks that have been here growing and contributing for decades. 
Good luck with things


----------



## Slartibart4242 (Oct 3, 2021)

Now if you really want to dive down the rabbit hole of lost knowledge, then I ask what is the correlation of Mach’s principle and binaural energy and how does it effect germination and vigor of plants? But once you dive down that rabbit hole you start to understand how ignorant humans have become....









(PDF) Influence of pyramids on germination and growth of fenugreek


PDF | Research has been undertaken to find out if square pyramidal structure has any influence on the germination, radical emergence and seedling vigour... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 3, 2021)

CheGueVapo said:


> Does cloning ruin cannabis strains over time?
> 
> 
> Science says that clones are exact copies of their mother—so why do some strains degrade after years of cloning? Read on to find out why.
> ...


That "source" you are choosing to use says exactly what I said. 

Clones don't degrade unless they are impacted by outside elements, whether it be environmental, viral, or other biological pathogens.


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## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Now if you really want to dive down the rabbit hole of lost knowledge, then I ask what is the correlation of Mach’s principle and binaural energy and how does it effect germination and vigor of plants?


We're invoking Mach's principle, now, are we? 
(Hold on, I'm gonna have to light one for this conversation) 

And, that's not a rabbit hole, that's a wormhole.


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## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

And what happened to my simple analysis of trichomes for judging harvest, post, a page back? Was it not esoteric enough for this group?
Do i need to invoke Lorenz equations in my posts to get any attention?


----------



## Slartibart4242 (Oct 3, 2021)

Haha I was being facetious in my retort. I mean technically yes Mach’s principle applies to wormholes  but that’s assuming we agree upon what Mach was even trying to express.

However, some people play Mozart or Bach to their plants and don’t know why or if there is an effect. In short the answer is yes, providing you are using certain frequencies.

But if you are trying to “push” to the max, well why not add sound to the equation. And I mean for some reason there are many civilizations that used vibrational healing. But do you really need to build a pyramid just to make better weed? It’s probably a little excessive... but I’m that crazy person who thinks that it would still be fun to do.

In addition on the list of “stupid” things that I would like to try is using a prism to change the angle of the sun to induce a different spectrum of light in a greenhouse. I agree recreating an indoor light will never compete with the sun, so why haven’t we looked into ways of adjusting the sunlight to our particular needs? 

but yes you can just look at trichomes and harvest at different times and then record your data and decide for yourself.


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## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> In addition on the list of “stupid” things that I would like to try is using a prism to change the angle of precisely the sun to induce a different spectrum of light in a greenhouse.


Whoa! That's a brilliant idea. You'd have to break down the different spectrums onto multiple different plants over a couple of months to see any effect that the different frequencies would have.
Your one and only problem would be getting the prisms to keep tracking the sun throughout the day, and precisely maintaining its angle to the sun to keep locked onto its designated colour frequency.

Either that or have one prism doing the tracking, and then moving all the test plants around in sync with their respective colour band as the light keeps shifting around the room.

Have fun with those algorithms. Lolol


----------



## lusidghost (Oct 3, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> And what happened to my simple analysis of trichomes for judging harvest, post, a page back? Was it not esoteric enough for this group?
> Do i need to invoke Lorenz equations in my posts to get any attention?


I think you're just creeping people out with that profile picture.


----------



## Boatguy (Oct 3, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> And what happened to my simple analysis of trichomes for judging harvest, post, a page back? Was it not esoteric enough for this group?
> Do i need to invoke Lorenz equations in my posts to get any attention?


The fact that you used both esoteric and lorenz in your reply shows how much you are overthinking gardening. 
Grow em and pick em when they are done.


----------



## phrygian44 (Oct 3, 2021)

lusidghost said:


> I think you're just creeping people out with that profile picture.


*LMFAO!!!! * 
I was wondering about that.

But that's Andy Pipkin, from Little Britain fame. He's an adorable character. 
Computer Say No, will vouch for me. Lolol


----------



## DaFreak (Oct 3, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> That "source" you are choosing to use says exactly what I said.
> 
> Clones don't degrade unless they are impacted by outside elements, whether it be environmental, viral, or other biological pathogens.


Interesting, they are suggesting that if I take my 3 year old MOB X ??? plant that has lost a step and transplant a clone into good soil I might be able to nurse it back. I heard from an old-timer that he thought sun could have the same effect. That would be cool for a hydro grower like me. I guess I should start some soil mothers instead of pro-mix and salts.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 3, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> Computer Say No, will vouch for me.


Let me check.

...

"Computer says no."

I'm sorry. Can't help you.


----------



## lusidghost (Oct 3, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> *LMFAO!!!! *
> I was wondering about that.
> 
> But that's Andy Pipkin, from Little Britain fame. He's an adorable character.
> Computer Say No, will vouch for me. Lolol


I was weirded out and had to do an image reversal, praying that it was a comedian or celebrity of some sort and not your actual picture. ha.


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## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 3, 2021)

lusidghost said:


> I was weirded out


If you watch Little Britain and are not weirded out, something is wrong with you. Highly recommended show.


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 3, 2021)

DaFreak said:


> Interesting, they are suggesting that if I take my 3 year old MOB X ??? plant that has lost a step and transplant a clone into good soil I might be able to nurse it back. I heard from an old-timer that he thought sun could have the same effect. That would be cool for a hydro grower like me. I guess I should start some soil mothers instead of pro-mix and salts.


I've read similar things about the sun "refreshing" damaged genetics, but I haven't had any personal experience with it. I've only ran plants outdoors the last 2 seasons, and both times were seed runs.

for 10ish years I kept my mothers in hydroton in 6x6 inch pots and fed with salts. I would cut clones every 2ish weeks and they always busted out gorgeous fresh new growth. I would replace them with a fresh healthy clone about every 6-9 months when they finally would get to big for the area I used. I ran multiple strains this way for years, some over 6 years with no degrading.


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## DaFreak (Oct 3, 2021)

I’ve done it myself, but this one I abused, underwatered, mites, thripes, aphids etc. had too much going on in life and too many strains I was trying to keep for friends. 100% my fault.


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 4, 2021)

So I it took me a while to find the spectrum list of my old light since it looks like they aren’t manufacturing grow lights anymore, but I used to use an advanced led diamond series XML light, and I could have sworn it had UV spectrum LEDs.

so when I finally found a report on it, it looks like it does have a couple 380nm UVA diodes. My question is how close to 280nm should I go to if I am trying to get a full spectrum UVA for flowering? For off the shelf solution I can only find the HLG UVA 30 and a gravita UVA strip, but both are in the 365-390nm range and 30 watts. Is there a benefit to adding a coupe 320nm diodes to the bar, since the graph you showed about natural sunlight had very minimal light in that spectrum?


----------



## Slartibart4242 (Oct 5, 2021)

phrygian44 said:


> Whoa! That's a brilliant idea. You'd have to break down the different spectrums onto multiple different plants over a couple of months to see any effect that the different frequencies would have.
> Your one and only problem would be getting the prisms to keep tracking the sun throughout the day, and precisely maintaining its angle to the sun to keep locked onto its designated colour frequency.
> 
> Either that or have one prism doing the tracking, and then moving all the test plants around in sync with their respective colour band as the light keeps shifting around the room.
> ...


So my basic design is that you would have to have something more like a domed greenhouse. However, I would imagine you could embed the prism into the glass. It would have to be cut like a fresnel lens. But in reverse in that we aren’t making a “light saber” by focusing the sun. Its more of a theoretical concept in my mind that a mule around everyone in a while. But I have yet to apply any math to the concept. To be honest I haven’t played with prisms at different angles enough.

In my mind it seems like the greenhouse would need to be curved on the side facing south to mirror the curvature of earth. That way it tracks with the sun all day. But it would also need to be able to be shifted 47 degrees to match the change in the angle of the sun over the course of the year. So really the only thing that needs to be calculated is the size, shape, and angle of the prism required to shift the sun into a flowering state year round and a veg state year round. That way you can have to “greenhouses” shifted to be the perfect veg and flower sun powered outdoor grow rooms. but I would want to incorporate a geothermal heating/cooling system so that temperature can also be controlled year round. Kind of a continuation to the greenhouse video I posted earlier in this thread.

but also incorporate a rain catch off the glass by having a gutter system at the bottom and have the greenhouse be partially underground so that it can be gravity fed.

But again that’s my stupid plan to eventually maximize ripeness is to create a hybrid system between indoor and outdoor growing. That allows me to flower as long as I want and have independent rooms in the greenhouses so that I can have different temperatures as well.


----------



## Grojaks (Oct 5, 2021)

as far as trichs go I recall when I first got into growing eons ago that 50% amber seemed to be the standard, I much prefer the 90% milky with some clear and amber mixed in.

Ever since my state went legal and dispensaries disappeared the weeds just bunk. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t buy it, but I see it. It’s over dried to increase THC levels (I think) but more importantly so it can be stored in a little plastic baggie for months.

When we had dispensaries the buds were stored in jars, humidity controlled and cured properly. You never got bud you could crumble in your hand, you got dank, sticky green that you had to grind up

Oh and I actually voted to not make it legal for the reasons above, mainly the gutting of mmj dispensaries.


----------



## weedstoner420 (Oct 5, 2021)

Well dang, this thread didn't turn out how I had hoped. Has anyone tried leaving a plant on 12/12 for 20+ weeks to see how far ripeness can actually be pushed...?

This might be the year I go for it, will report back in 5-6 months if it goes well.


----------



## Dr. Death (Oct 5, 2021)

Time lapse photos would be cool, 1 pic a day from flip, although all you’d be getting is a visual representation of what the plant is doing, without taking samples at different times there would be no way of monitoring quality deterioration once you get past the premium point of ‘ripe’

my 2c anyhow and I know 2/3 of nothing really


----------



## PJ Diaz (Oct 5, 2021)

I decided to "show ignored content" of this thread, and quickly remembered why I ignored it to begin with. That said, the arrogance in this thread is astounding!



Thundercat said:


> That "source" you are choosing to use says exactly what I said.
> 
> Clones don't degrade unless they are impacted by outside elements, whether it be environmental, viral, or other biological pathogens.





Rurumo said:


> The idea that mother plants decline over time, or that clones decline over time as they are grown out and re-cloned, is just old bro-science. I've kept mother plants alive for 8 years with no decline in quality, and I know a guy with a White Widow mommy from 1995 that is still going strong.


It's not bro science, and frankly it has to do more with genetic mutations than anything. It's proven science that identical human twins aren't really identical because of the many mutations which occur after the fertilized egg divides. Old science believed that the difference in twins had more to do with environmental impacts, and although it is true that environment does play a role, newer science has discovered that it is more attributed to the aforementioned mutations. It's really not much different in Cannabis clones vs humans, in that dna mutations do happen all the time. I personally have experienced it myself with a specific cut in the past. 

Here are two scientific articles to support my assertion (not Leafly, derp):









Why plant 'clones' aren't identical


A new study of plants that are reproduced by 'cloning' has shown why cloned plants are not identical. Scientists have known for some time that 'clonal' (regenerant) organisms are not always identical. Now researchers believe they have found out why this is the case in plants: the genomes of...



www.sciencedaily.com













Accumulation of somatic mutations leads to genetic mosaicism in Cannabis


Cannabis is typically propagated using stem cuttings taken from mother plants to produce genetically uniform propagules. However, producers anecdotally report that clonal lines deteriorate over time and eventually produce clones with less vigour and lower cannabinoid levels than the original...




www.biorxiv.org


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 6, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> I decided to "show ignored content" of this thread, and quickly remembered why I ignored it to begin with. That said, the arrogance in this thread is astounding!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Go up and read my first comment on the subject a few posts before this one(on the previous page I guess). I specifically mentioned mutations as being a possibility that would cause change. 

I read that link you posted about this in a different thread a week or so ago. It says they don’t know why mutations sometimes happen. That isn’t some big new breakthrough. I’ve said for years that mutations from genetic damage can cause plants to change. 

The other link shows that mutations can happen.......it mentions it could be environmental and then “hypothesizes” that it results in degradation of clones. I’ve seen it happen when plants got damaged over time from poor health and care. Mutations and degradation can happen like I’ve said from the beginning.

What neither of those links show is any proof that a healthy plant that is well cared for will naturally automatically degrade through cloning.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Oct 6, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Go up and read my first comment on the subject a few posts before this one(on the previous page I guess). I specifically mentioned mutations as being a possibility that would cause change.
> 
> I read that link you posted about this in a different thread a week or so ago. It says they don’t know why mutations sometimes happen. That isn’t some big new breakthrough. I’ve said for years that mutations from genetic damage can cause plants to change.
> 
> ...


I agree that the science is still young on this, and whatever the reason for the mutations, it's clear that they do happen. My comments weren't really related to your posts, I just wanted to capture your quote as a reference point. While it is likely that environment does play some role, I find it difficult to believe that it would be an overriding element. Consider two human twins in utero, they are both subjected to essentially the same environmental conditions, yet they have completely different dna mutations which result in identical twins who aren't really identical. Why should we expect that phenomenon to be much different in plants?


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## ComputerSaysNo (Oct 6, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> I decided to "show ignored content" of this thread, and quickly remembered why I ignored it to begin with.


Quoted for love.


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## Lenin1917 (Oct 6, 2021)

tstick said:


> I've seen this, too. I think some of the buds get so shaken around by the time they get to market, most of the trich heads are gone. Those buds can appear frosty at a glance because the stems of the trichs are still attached to the leaves...but no heads on them!


Shits even worse with free market plugs. Hand a mf a qp of beautiful tops in 4 jars. “You ain’t gotta do all that” then watch ‘em squish it down into one. Like bro no, treat the weed right


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## Thundercat (Oct 6, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> I agree that the science is still young on this, and whatever the reason for the mutations, it's clear that they do happen. My comments weren't really related to your posts, I just wanted to capture your quote as a reference point. While it is likely that environment does play some role, I find it difficult to believe that it would be an overriding element. Consider two human twins in utero, they are both subjected to essentially the same environmental conditions, yet they have completely different dna mutations which result in identical twins who aren't really identical. Why should we expect that phenomenon to be much different in plants?


I'm not saying the environment is the only factor, but certainly, a major factor as we can see from the way that phenotypes change due to the environment, it has a strong impact on plants and influences how genetics behave. Stress is likely also a big factor. I believe the specific experience I had with a bubba kush plant degrading came from a combination of a very bad environment causing huge amounts of stress. The plant never flowered right after that no matter how healthy it seemed to be vegging. 

Also a big reason that I expect plants to behave differently in some ways is that they ARE VERY DIFFERENT from animals. You can't cut off a finger from MOST animals and regrow a whole new animal. Where as many/most plants can have a cutting taken and regrow a whole new plant from that little sample. Very different life forms behave differently......... so making direct comparisons between things that are not actually related is kind of silly.


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 6, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> I'm not saying the environment is the only factor, but certainly, a major factor as we can see from the way that phenotypes change due to the environment, it has a strong impact on plants and influences how genetics behave. Stress is likely also a big factor. I believe the specific experience I had with a bubba kush plant degrading came from a combination of a very bad environment causing huge amounts of stress. The plant never flowered right after that no matter how healthy it seemed to be vegging.
> 
> Also a big reason that I expect plants to behave differently in some ways is that they ARE VERY DIFFERENT from animals. You can't cut off a finger from MOST animals and regrow a whole new animal. Where as many/most plants can have a cutting taken and regrow a whole new plant from that little sample. Very different life forms behave differently......... so making direct comparisons between things that are not actually related is kind of silly.


Not that silly really..






Genetics, DNA, plants and humans


How much DNA do plants share with humans? Over 99%?




www.saps.org.uk


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## Thundercat (Oct 6, 2021)

PJ Diaz said:


> Not that silly really..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They may share some similar DNA, there are other organisms that are only 1 chromosome apart even though they are very different organisms. In either case plants and animals function in very different ways so I wouldn't just make assumptions about similarities between clones of plants and human twins.


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 6, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> They may share some similar DNA, there are other organisms that are only 1 chromosome apart even though they are very different organisms. In either case plants and animals function in very different ways so I wouldn't just make assumptions about similarities between clones of plants and human twins.


Point is, DNA doesn't behave all that differently in one species to another.


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## PadawanWarrior (Oct 6, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> They may share some similar DNA, there are other organisms that are only 1 chromosome apart even though they are very different organisms. In either case plants and animals function in very different ways so I wouldn't just make assumptions about similarities between clones of plants and human twins.


Comparing plants with humans, priceless.

Thundercat's Ho!


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## Cappuchino (Oct 7, 2021)

Frenchy Cannoli says until there is less then 80% amber in *each *trichome, THC doesn't brake up.


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## Thundercat (Oct 7, 2021)

Cappuchino said:


> Frenchy Cannoli says until there is less then 80% amber in *each *trichome, THC doesn't brake up.


I don't know what % point it actually happens at but I bet he isn't far off. I know I've seen lab tests over the years that show that the degradation of THC into CBN doesn't happen over night and really takes some time. Just like the maturation of the trichomes from clear to cloudy and cloudy to amber it all really takes some significant time, and many many growers new and old rush the process for various reasons.


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 7, 2021)

PadawanWarrior said:


> Comparing plants with humans, priceless.











Plants and humans are more similar than you think


You probably wouldn’t conclude that plants and humans are related just from looking at them. After all, we’re not green!




blog.helix.com










Can you compare human and plant DNA?







genetics.thetech.org


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## Slartibart4242 (Oct 8, 2021)

Not a study of weed but of oak trees. But if 234+ year old trees can have very few mutations due to how they protect their stem cells why would it be any different in cannabis?









Ancient Oak’s Youthful Genome Surprises Biologists


DNA of a 234-year-old tree has few mutations, giving weight to idea that plants protect their stem cells




www.scientificamerican.com





Also the parallels between how nature and “humans” work are uncanny... But you have to change your notions and understand that plants are sentient...



Redirect Notice


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## PadawanWarrior (Oct 8, 2021)

Slartibart4242 said:


> Not a study of weed but of oak trees. But if 234+ year old trees can have very few mutations due to how they protect their stem cells why would it be any different in cannabis?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You had to say oak trees, lol. I think a lot of people will enjoy this one.


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## bazoomer (Oct 8, 2021)

I am Groot.


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## yasg (Dec 18, 2021)

what a waste of time this thread is, don't bother to read more than the first page, a bunch of ego-maniacs are using this thread for their bro-science-stories and off topic all over the place, it's a shame to have this under advanced cultivation - hilarious


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## weedstoner420 (Mar 18, 2022)

Farther than this apparently. I've grown this pheno before and it's normally done in 11 weeks. Chopped this one at 19 weeks of 12/12... Looks pretty toasty in the areas that got direct light, but still plenty of green underneath. Also didn't drop a single leaf the whole time, so I honestly think it could have gone a good bit longer...

Dang that's a nice looking nug...


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## bk78 (Mar 18, 2022)

weedstoner420 said:


> Farther than this apparently. I've grown this pheno before and it's normally done in 11 weeks. Chopped this one at 19 weeks of 12/12... Looks pretty toasty in the areas that got direct light, but still plenty of green underneath. Also didn't drop a single leaf the whole time, so I honestly think it could have gone a good bit longer...
> View attachment 5103477
> Dang that's a nice looking nug...
> View attachment 5103478


Yeah all the pet hair and pubes really accent the beautiful nug well.


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## weedstoner420 (Mar 18, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Yeah all the pet hair and pubes really accent the beautiful nug well.


Hey man, you try sitting in front of a fan in someone's basement for 5 months and see how clean you end up


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## green_machine_two9er (Mar 18, 2022)

weedstoner420 said:


> Hey man, you try sitting in front of a fan in someone's basement for 5 months and see how clean you end up


Ummmm 




weedstoner420 said:


> Farther than this apparently. I've grown this pheno before and it's normally done in 11 weeks. Chopped this one at 19 weeks of 12/12... Looks pretty toasty in the areas that got direct light, but still plenty of green underneath. Also didn't drop a single leaf the whole time, so I honestly think it could have gone a good bit longer...
> View attachment 5103477
> Dang that's a nice looking nug...
> View attachment 5103478


if that’s what a nice looking nug is I do feel very sad for you. Looks like a hospital visit to me


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## waterproof808 (Mar 18, 2022)

thats basically decomposing on the vine.


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## weedstoner420 (Mar 18, 2022)

waterproof808 said:


> thats basically decomposing on the vine.


That was sort of the idea...yeah there was a bit of mold starting in some of the tops, but what did you expect in a thread called "how far can ripeness be pushed"?

The high is roughly the same as the 11-week stuff, no couch lock despite near 100% amber trichomes, but nothing super special either. In the end a lot of it went to the compost, probably not an experiment I will attempt to repeat.


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## HydroKid239 (Mar 18, 2022)

weedstoner420 said:


> Farther than this apparently. I've grown this pheno before and it's normally done in 11 weeks. Chopped this one at 19 weeks of 12/12... Looks pretty toasty in the areas that got direct light, but still plenty of green underneath. Also didn't drop a single leaf the whole time, so I honestly think it could have gone a good bit longer...
> View attachment 5103477
> Dang that's a nice looking nug...
> View attachment 5103478


At first glance it looked like a scarecrow shit it’s pants lol 
The bud looks like it’s going to taste like the spillage.


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## weedstoner420 (Mar 26, 2022)

I'm back, sorry everyone. Here's one I normally cut at 12-13 weeks, this time I let it go a little over 20. Really got that golden glow going on:



Again not that much different from when cut at the usual time. Smell decreased in the last month but the high is still there, maybe a little more mellow but definitely did not put me to sleep or anything. 

Conclusion based on two plants I have some prior experience with: ripeness can be pushed quite a while after the usual "peak" and the effect doesn't change much. Chop when ripe, early weed sucks (it's more "up" in an edgy and 'noidy kinda way), late weed is fine.


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## MICHI-CAN (Mar 26, 2022)

weedstoner420 said:


> I'm back, sorry everyone. Here's one I normally cut at 12-13 weeks, this time I let it go a little over 20. Really got that golden glow going on:
> View attachment 5108134
> 
> View attachment 5108135
> ...


I'm with you. Flowered well past ripe. Then naturally dried on the plant. Smooth fire with mellow taste. And I almost tossed this experimental Space Monkey.


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## HydroKid239 (Mar 27, 2022)

weedstoner420 said:


> Hey man, you try sitting in front of a fan in someone's basement for 5 months and see how clean you end up


That’s all he does.. so I’d take his word on it.


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## bk78 (Mar 27, 2022)

HydroKid239 said:


> That’s all he does.. so I’d take his word on it.


I think you mean your master poopwun right?


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## HydroKid239 (Mar 27, 2022)

bk78 said:


> I think you mean your master poopwun right?


 That basement humor. Some one will come along & giggle.


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## bk78 (Mar 27, 2022)

HydroKid239 said:


> That basement humor. Some one will come along & giggle.


im sure the only one that will will be your superior troll boss kiddo.

1/10 weak troll attempt


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## HydroKid239 (Mar 27, 2022)

bk78 said:


> im sure the only one that will will be your superior troll boss kiddo.
> 
> 1/10 weak troll attempt


How can I be trolling? And you at that?  I wasn’t even talking to you. 
I guess today is a slow day in the basement. Carry on bud, in no way to I want to converse with you beyond this.


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## bk78 (Mar 27, 2022)

HydroKid239 said:


> How can I be trolling? And you at that?  I wasn’t even talking to you.
> I guess today is a slow day in the basement. Carry on bud, in no way to I want to converse with you beyond this.


Yeah slow day in my basement. I have big windows in my basement eh kiddo?

One day I hope to get out of this basement into a 1 bedroom apartment or something


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## tstick (Mar 27, 2022)

Man! Some of these buds look like the real old school! Maybe THAT'S one of the "missing links" in the quest for getting back to some of those old school strains that were around BEFORE growers started breeding out all of those old flavors. I can just imagine what it would be like to find that lost jar of old Columbian, Mexican, Thai, etc. landrace strain seeds and grow them out -_except this time, with new school technology_ and the open exchange of growing information, that's available now! 

I really hope that we see more and more home growing so that we can get away from the industry-based mentality of "yield" and "bud density". Concentrate on flavor and smell ONLY. If it takes 20 weeks of flower to get there, then so be it! I'm sure there will be ample enough THC to get you high, no matter what the strain.


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## dizzygirlio (Mar 27, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Yeah slow day in my basement. I have big windows in my basement eh kiddo?
> 
> One day I hope to get out of this basement into a 1 bedroom apartment or something
> 
> View attachment 5108899


LOL! Your spoiled little kitty looks very unhappy in it's 2nd cat condo. It only has that one tiny pine tree to look at birds in out of the small bay window.


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## dizzygirlio (Mar 27, 2022)

dizzygirlio said:


> LOL! Your spoiled little kitty looks very unhappy in it's 2nd cat condo. It only has that one tiny pine tree to look at birds in out of the small bay window.


I meant that in a nice way. sorry. I'm jealous of your pine tree and I love your kitty.


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## bk78 (Mar 27, 2022)

dizzygirlio said:


> LOL! Your spoiled little kitty looks very unhappy in it's 2nd cat condo. It only has that one tiny pine tree to look at birds in out of the small bay window.


Right? I’m such a awful pet owner.

They are also super un happy being cooped up in my basement all day too, one day I’ll find a bigger and better place when I move out of moms house.


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## bk78 (Mar 27, 2022)

dizzygirlio said:


> I meant that in a nice way. sorry. I'm jealous of your pine tree and I love your kitty.


The pine tree is Ada’s Netflix lol. That’s her favourite place to be watching the squirrels and birds all day.


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## dizzygirlio (Mar 27, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Right? I’m such a awful pet owner.
> 
> They are also super un happy being cooped up in my basement all day too, one day I’ll find a bigger and better place when I move out of moms house.
> 
> View attachment 5108915


Exactly! I'm not good with sarcasm. Any kitty would be jealous of their house.


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## bk78 (Mar 27, 2022)

dizzygirlio said:


> . Any kitty would be jealous of their house.


Kinda like these kids in 3x3 tents they got free to promote are jealous then I guess?


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## dizzygirlio (Mar 27, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Kinda like these kids in 3x3 tents they got free to promote are jealous then I guess?


Of your grow? Fuck yeah dude! At least I am. If your grow room was a woman and I was really strong, and a lesbian I'd fight you for her!   I'm really stoned so I apologies if that's not funny to anyone else. LOL!


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## dizzygirlio (Mar 27, 2022)

bk78 said:


> Kinda like these kids in 3x3 tents they got free to promote are jealous then I guess?





weedstoner420 said:


> I'm back, sorry everyone. Here's one I normally cut at 12-13 weeks, this time I let it go a little over 20. Really got that golden glow going on:
> View attachment 5108134
> 
> View attachment 5108135
> ...


Serious question, are the leaves like that because of the phenotype? Like the purplish-brown parts?


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## weedstoner420 (Mar 27, 2022)

dizzygirlio said:


> Serious question, are the leaves like that because of the phenotype? Like the purplish-brown parts?


Yeah, this pheno always turns real dark purple, almost black, not sure which brown you mean but it's a combo of amber trichs, wind damage, and senescence...here is a pic from week 11ish:


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## DoobieDoobs (Mar 27, 2022)

@weedstoner420 very cool experiment, you went past the "peak" by a lot of weeks, and didn't change much in terms of high and smell, I would have thought past the peak the high and smell become less and less powerful as the terpenes and trichomes get older. That plant at week 11 looks delicious btw.


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## dizzygirlio (Mar 27, 2022)

weedstoner420 said:


> Yeah, this pheno always turns real dark purple, almost black, not sure which brown you mean but it's a combo of amber trichs, wind damage, and senescence...here is a pic from week 11ish:
> View attachment 5108933


I think it's my eyes. I was one of the gold dress people a few years back when they had that blue dress/gold dress debate on fb. you might not remember. Anyway, I see the purple now.
I think it's the trichomes on the leaves because they're amber that I was looking at.


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## weedstoner420 (Mar 27, 2022)

DoobieDoobs said:


> @weedstoner420 very cool experiment, you went past the "peak" by a lot of weeks, and didn't change much in terms of high and smell, I would have thought past the peak the high and smell become less and less powerful as the terpenes and trichomes get older. That plant at week 11 looks delicious btw.


Thanks, yeah it's a pretty one!


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## tstick (Mar 27, 2022)

weedstoner420 said:


> Yeah, this pheno always turns real dark purple, almost black, not sure which brown you mean but it's a combo of amber trichs, wind damage, and senescence...here is a pic from week 11ish:
> View attachment 5108933


Wow! If THAT doesn't convince growers to go longer, then I don't know what would! That's a gorgeous plant. When I see stuff like that, it just "says" that it's ready! This is what the home grower can achieve, in a practical way, that the commercial grower can't. The home grower can experiment and try things that might end in failure....So what? That's the way new things are discovered, right? Some experiments end up in success!

Somewhere along the way, it just got determined that 8-10 weeks was the window of harvesting for most hybrids. I think this is because of the initial idea that THC level was the determining factor...and that most hybrids' THC peaked at around that stage. But even if the THC begins to degrade in later stages of flower, I think the "entourage effect" may have more time to develop into something deeper and more complex, both in terms of flavor as well as effect.

I just started week #10 flower and the plants look like teenagers to me, now!


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## weedstoner420 (Mar 28, 2022)

tstick said:


> Wow! If THAT doesn't convince growers to go longer, then I don't know what would! That's a gorgeous plant. When I see stuff like that, it just "says" that it's ready! This is what the home grower can achieve, in a practical way, that the commercial grower can't. The home grower can experiment and try things that might end in failure....So what? That's the way new things are discovered, right? Some experiments end up in success!
> 
> Somewhere along the way, it just got determined that 8-10 weeks was the window of harvesting for most hybrids. I think this is because of the initial idea that THC level was the determining factor...and that most hybrids' THC peaked at around that stage. But even if the THC begins to degrade in later stages of flower, I think the "entourage effect" may have more time to develop into something deeper and more complex, both in terms of flavor as well as effect.
> 
> I just started week #10 flower and the plants look like teenagers to me, now!


Thanks! Yeah commercial growers definitely have some motivation to cut as early as the market will allow, because capitalism, but somehow that mindset got filtered down to home growers too...that and the whole idea of trichomes being the end-all factor for determining ripeness, leading to many "is it ready" threads with photos of amber or supposedly-cloudy trichs, then when they post a full bud shot it's clearly nowhere near done...not to mention folks seeking an "up" or "energizing" effect and thinking they can get that by harvesting a little early. The effect of early weed, vs a strain with an inherently energizing high, left to ripen fully, is night and day (at least in my experience).

I think the first time I grew a plant until the buds got that popped-popcorn look to them (see my avatar), was the last time I bothered looking at trichs trying to decide when to harvest. There is a certain "it's done" look that folks talk about, and once you've seen it in person it's easy to recognize, but the only way to really know what it is is to let the plant get there. I guess some people just don't have the patience for it. Or are hung up on the myth that harvesting earlier or later will change the effect and don't bother trying. Or both, their loss. How else do you know what you might be missing out on? End rant.


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## tstick (Apr 6, 2022)

I'm still watching my two Chemdozer plants ripening. Already, it's amazing how the terpene profile has changed from what it started out as! When I unzip the tent, that first waft of air coming out is almost sweet and kind of weird, spiced pineapple. And that's different from a couple weeks ago, when it had a sour smell. But, when I moved the containers around for watering and the branches bumped into each other a couple times, it filled the room with a smell that was like straight-up creosote/lighter fluid funk.

I'm hoping to chop the plants around Easter ...or maybe 4/20!


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## StonedGardener (Apr 6, 2022)

SSHZ said:


> Many sativa strains trichomes won't change to amber, unless you wait 20 weeks or more. Indica's show their ripeness much easier. Trichome coloring is just one indication, of many.


You're so right about the time it takes to see that transition....I have a Chocolope crop....close to harvest that's been flowering for months.....amber seems to show after an eternity.


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## Left thumb (May 1, 2022)

ZeeeDoc said:


> I ran a white Rhino many years ago that looked ready by week 9( very indica Dom) I left it go another couple weeks and by this stage it was 95% amber trichomes, heavy yield, absolutely stunk and after the cure I’ve never smelt anything like it to this day. I always try to grow so they become overripe, I find the best smells and tastes at this stage.


What was high like


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## Stealthgroguy (May 6, 2022)

tstick said:


> My understanding has always been that the flowers are at their peak ripeness when the trichomes become milky with about 20% of them turning amber.
> 
> But when did this become the common ideal?
> 
> ...


I read the same thing about the tricombs being at peak potency while they are milky. in high times like 16 years ago and I also read a few issues later , """( I had a subscription because I was growing my first time no internet marijuana was frowned upon still so I started of reading as much information about weed I could get my hands on mostly high times)""" , continued=== that while milky the buds are to be harvested at this point is because by time drying and curing is complete those tricombs matured and beccome amber in color with a fuller head.


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## Left thumb (May 6, 2022)

ZeeeDoc said:


> I ran a white Rhino many years ago that looked ready by week 9( very indica Dom) I left it go another couple weeks and by this stage it was 95% amber trichomes, heavy yield, absolutely stunk and after the cure I’ve never smelt anything like it to this day. I always try to grow so they become overripe, I find the best smells and tastes at this stage.


How was the high


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## tstick (May 7, 2022)

Well....I let the Chemdozer go for 15 weeks!! The plants were basically almost dead in the ground when I chopped them. It only took 6 days for the plants to hang-dry. I just got done trimming up the last of the two plants I grew and got them into the curing jars. It looks really good -lots of trichomes.

The smell, going into the jars is an overall strong Vick's Vapor Rub smell! It also has a diesel/hazelnut note to it as well. Both plants are very similar....one might be slightly more fragrant, but very close. It smells good. I was hoping for a bit more funky/nasty/creosote/lighter fluid thing, but I think it will be a good flavor, nonetheless.

Interestingly, by allowing these to go for so long, the uppermost buds almost started to dry out and die. They started to get a bit crispy! The trichomes still looked milky, though, so I'm not sure what happened. They weren't too close to the lights. It wasn't too hot. I kept them watered the entire time and they kept slowly drinking it, but even the chlorophyl in the stalk and branches had gone yellow by the time I chopped. It was literally drained!

I got the buds in the jars but the humidity meter is only reading 55-58% after a day with the lids on tight. I hope they still cure okay. The buds are very sticky and pliable, so I'm hopeful. I don't even want to try any of the flower until I've given it a month or so to cure. Maybe the moisture will at least even out.

Man, it's hard to chop the stalk after 5-6 months of work and care! I feel kinda bad whenever I chop them down.


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## Tumbleweedz (Jan 4, 2023)

migenetics said:


> I think odie from homegrown natural wonders did this with quantum kush( could be off but it was on a episode of the pot cast) whatever the case, he tested buds pulled at 6,7,8,9,10 weeks and the highest thc was at 6 weeks and degrading from then on. I'm sure it has to with the bud size in relation to trichrome production. As the bud swells it still has the same amount of trichs per calyx so that would be why IMO.


Good point. Thing is, how many known and unknown Cannabinoids exist ? Pure THC is a head-down, laid-out-on-the-couch, paranoid, quick up-down, type of high.

Good marijuana is much much more dynamic then that. That's why the endless quest for THC is BS, imo


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