# how to reduce internodal space



## Anth88 (Apr 15, 2017)

any tips on how to reduce the gap in between nodes. keeping plants as small bushy as possible. all theory wellcome thanks


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## SouthCross (Apr 15, 2017)

Supposedly. The same temp at night as in the day. If they run 74° with the light one. 74° with the light off. Doing such is a method. Heaters on timers. AC on timers.


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## blake9999 (Apr 16, 2017)

use B-Nine hormone.
* Product description *
B-Nine WSG Plant Growth Regulator works to regulate the height of plants by reducing the internode length of ornamentals.

https://www.amazon.com/B-Nine-Growth-Regulator-Greenhouse-Nursery/dp/B004JVGY1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492354356&sr=8-1&keywords=b+nine


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## Creature1969 (Apr 16, 2017)

COB lighting has been known to cause people to look for ways to get plants to stretch more. 

Auto Cheese 23 days from sprout under COBs w/no training and lights @36" . She was topped the next day.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 16, 2017)

seaweed, especially cold water seaweed like kelp, has a pgr (plant growth regulator) in it called cytokinin, that does exactly what you want, they are basically the opposite of auxins.


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## nachooo (Apr 17, 2017)

blake9999 said:


> use B-Nine hormone.
> * Product description *
> B-Nine WSG Plant Growth Regulator works to regulate the height of plants by reducing the internode length of ornamentals.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/B-Nine-Growth-Regulator-Greenhouse-Nursery/dp/B004JVGY1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492354356&sr=8-1&keywords=b+nine


Dont use this product or another that contains its active ingredient daminozide....a well know carcinogen...
Please stop promoting this nasty poisons..you can use other techniques...and if you like to use chemicals there are less toxic options...like BAP or others


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## nachooo (Apr 17, 2017)

Read this: An excellent summary of the known techniques to reduce stretch...
https://manicbotanix.com/pgr-free-stretch-reduction/


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## nachooo (Apr 17, 2017)

There are some new products that are not well tested in cannabis like quercetin wich interacts with auxins that are absolutely safe cause are suitable for human consumption and approved for that.


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## nachooo (Apr 17, 2017)

In my own experience...use more blue light and space the plants to avoid shade avoidance syndrome. And dont use far red until strech phase is finished (last month of flowering in most cases)


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## GroErr (Apr 17, 2017)

nachooo said:


> Read this: An excellent summary of the known techniques to reduce stretch...
> https://manicbotanix.com/pgr-free-stretch-reduction/


That's a good summary of some techniques I've tried and validated through testing.

For the stretch period one thing it doesn't mention is managing the difference between veg kelvin and flowering kelvin. That is one of the biggest factors from what I've seen in testing. The greater the difference in colour/kelvin, the greater the stretch. In other words most stretch would be if you were vegging with 6500k and flowering with hps (2300k). So managing the stretch can be managed (greater or less) by choosing or forcing specific light colours during the first couple of weeks. An example to reduce stretch might be running a HID lamp with higher blue ratings during the stretch period, then switching it to hps. imo this is why you'll often hear folks flowering with hps, then switching to LED's for flowering seeing a big difference in reduced stretch under LED's. The most common LED kelvin rating is 3500k for flowering, so without changing veg light kelvin rating, flipping to hps in flowering vs. LED's will produce much more stretch, all other factors being equal. Prior to flowering with 3500k COBs I was using 315w CMH with a 3100k bulb and even with only a 400k difference there was a notable difference in stretch between CMH and COBs.

I can also vouch for negative DIF mentioned in the article suppressing stretch. Ran a couple of rounds last summer running negative DIF temps (higher temps during lights out) and saw a big reduction in stretch. I also noticed significant differences in bud output and density using this technique. It's difficult to run this during winter for me, but I'll go back to running negative DIF as the temps warm up, it was well worth the extra effort to maintain a negative DIF environment. If you want the stretch but want to try negative DIF, you can simply run the first couple of weeks in a traditional environment with say a 10-15F difference between lights-on and lights-off (lower temps), then switch the environment to negative DIF.

In veg, not sure why but those blurple multi-band cheap LED's (e.g. Vipar, or MARS) tend to grow very tight nodes in veg across multiple genetics and you don't have to do anything, they just grow that way under those lamps. I've used them for 4+ years and they go into flowering very tight, then I stretch them to open them up in flowering which gives me a great transition with benefits from both techs.


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## rkymtnman (Apr 17, 2017)

Anth88 said:


> any tips on how to reduce the gap in between nodes. keeping plants as small bushy as possible. all theory wellcome thanks


24/0 lights for veg keeps them short and bushy for me especially indica strains. sativas are a bit stretchier by nature.


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## Yodaweed (Apr 17, 2017)

have you tried mtn dew?


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Apr 17, 2017)

mtn. dew is what comes out of diabetics during dialysis


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## Anth88 (Apr 18, 2017)

Yodaweed said:


> have you tried mtn dew?


dissappear off me feed ya troll. not got time for morons or juveniles


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## Holie214 (Apr 21, 2017)

I am using an LED 6" above the plants and they are only about 5" with 6 to 7 nodes. This is about 4 1/2 weeks after seeds sprouted.


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## Dudemankidson (Apr 27, 2017)

I definitely find that I get less intermodal stretching under my LED. I do find I get more vigorous growth under my significantly higher wattage HID however.


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## Dynamo626 (Apr 29, 2017)

Kelp helps it containd nateral pgr besides that light. Im all organic this is them at 5 weeks before and after hst then the next day


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## Andino (Apr 29, 2017)

distance of light bulb must be as close as temp allows
Indicas strain is naturally shorter
dont water them overage, specially in the first 3 week of flowering, same with nitrogenous fertilizers


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## Moflow (May 9, 2017)

Andino said:


> distance of light bulb must be as close as temp allows
> Indicas strain is naturally shorter
> dont water them overage, specially in the first 3 week of flowering, same with nitrogenous fertilizers


Yea, lights as close as possible definitely keeps plants short n tight.


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## MonkeyPickAss (May 9, 2017)

Holie214 said:


> I am using an LED 6" above the plants and they are only about 5" with 6 to 7 nodes. This is about 4 1/2 weeks after seeds sprouted.


4.5 [email protected][email protected]#!#[email protected]#[email protected]# i would be furious if my plants looked like that after 4.5 weeks. These are my current plants under some cheap led lights at 4 weeks today. Simple answer to the op's question is LED lights get you tight nodes. There are 6 different strains in the picture.


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## Holie214 (May 9, 2017)

It's my first grow so I don't have much to compare it to. I'm into my first week a flowing now.


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## MonkeyPickAss (May 9, 2017)

Holie214 said:


> It's my first grow so I don't have much to compare it to. I'm into my first week a flowing now.


They look much much better there. Nice grow.


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## Roscko (May 14, 2017)

Tie knots in the stems.


_calm down, its just a joke_.


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## Roscko (May 14, 2017)

Looking nice and short with the LED's, and looks like you have the LED's just far away enough to keep them short and not burn them.


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## Ss-farmer (May 15, 2017)

Run your lights at night so the temps stay similar to what they are when the lights are off..


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## vostok (May 15, 2017)

Anth88 said:


> any tips on how to reduce the gap in between nodes. keeping plants as small bushy as possible. all theory wellcome thanks


The real deal is hormones in the plant dictate the effects to the plant

you the grower manipulate these hormones to suit your own grow style

you can do this with chems (uncool) or with light (cool)

shining a hps/2700k light above ur plant is hormone manipulation

if you are trying to grow weed in say a pc case or shoe box etc ..typical of many

you'd start of post germing with a white 6500k light

avoid using any red light/2700k until the last 2 weeks on the entire grow

favoring/with practice a daylight color of about 4000k

its a test and trial to ur own situation

boost ur weed knowledge read up hormones

good luck


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## churchhaze (May 18, 2017)

vostok said:


> The real deal is hormones in the plant dictate the effects to the plant
> 
> you the grower manipulate these hormones to suit your own grow style
> 
> ...


I assume you mean avoid far-red. Red inhibits shade avoidance while far-red promotes shade avoidance. Red reduces stretch.


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## weedhead24 (May 23, 2017)

GroErr said:


> That's a good summary of some techniques I've tried and validated through testing.
> 
> For the stretch period one thing it doesn't mention is managing the difference between veg kelvin and flowering kelvin. That is one of the biggest factors from what I've seen in testing. The greater the difference in colour/kelvin, the greater the stretch. In other words most stretch would be if you were vegging with 6500k and flowering with hps (2300k). So managing the stretch can be managed (greater or less) by choosing or forcing specific light colours during the first couple of weeks. An example to reduce stretch might be running a HID lamp with higher blue ratings during the stretch period, then switching it to hps. imo this is why you'll often hear folks flowering with hps, then switching to LED's for flowering seeing a big difference in reduced stretch under LED's. The most common LED kelvin rating is 3500k for flowering, so without changing veg light kelvin rating, flipping to hps in flowering vs. LED's will produce much more stretch, all other factors being equal. Prior to flowering with 3500k COBs I was using 315w CMH with a 3100k bulb and even with only a 400k difference there was a notable difference in stretch between CMH and COBs.
> 
> ...


excuse me question for a small micro grow vipar or mars for overall performance which you feel is suitable for my needs .or just go another led route I want dank dank ass buds


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## ANC (May 24, 2017)

CFL light tends to give close cropping, you can also foliar feed with kelp on a regular basis to also help keep it from stretching.
Normally one would only do this once every week or 2 or three, to avoid it not stretching, so just do the opposite.

Don't even think about Mars, or any unit using those shitty LEDs.


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## MonkeyPickAss (May 24, 2017)

ANC said:


> CFL light tends to give close cropping, you can also foliar feed with kelp on a regular basis to also help keep it from stretching.
> Normally one would only do this once every week or 2 or three, to avoid it not stretching, so just do the opposite.
> 
> Don't even think about Mars, or any unit using those shitty LEDs.


Fuck mars for sure but there are plenty of nice shitty Let's. Comparing a vipar or Meizhi to cfl is laughable at best.


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## ANC (May 24, 2017)

Was not making a comparison, was just talking about using CFL to help keep nodes small, especially during veg.
They are not suitable for proper flowering unless you smoke micrograms.


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## GroErr (May 24, 2017)

weedhead24 said:


> excuse me question for a small micro grow vipar or mars for overall performance which you feel is suitable for my needs .or just go another led route I want dank dank ass buds


I only use them for veg/clones.seedlings, wouldn't recommend either for flowering, they're a step above cfl's for flowering. If you were to have only one light I'd go the LED COB route, you'll get at least double the weight in flowering.


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## TheChemist77 (May 24, 2017)

i use the 3100k 315watt cmh for both veg and flower.. in veg the plants stay short and stocky,,every strain is different but it seems more indica= tighter nodes and shorter plants. i then flower under the same lights,, plants do stretch, but much less than they did using 6500k mh in veg and a 3100k hps in flower. my day time and night temps may also play a factor,, my room lights on 76-80 d f and night time temps 68-72 d f ...


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## weedhead24 (May 24, 2017)

thanks growerr


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## weedhead24 (May 24, 2017)

GroErr said:


> I only use them for veg/clones.seedlings, wouldn't recommend either for flowering, they're a step above cfl's for flowering. If you were to have only one light I'd go the LED COB route, you'll get at least double the weight in flowering.


hey groerr how do they use cobs


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## GroErr (May 24, 2017)

weedhead24 said:


> hey groerr how do they use cobs


It's jus another technology within the family of LED's (Chip On Board). A lot of people b wild them themselves, there are kits available where basically all you do is assembly. There are pre-built off-the-shelf panels, not a lot different than the older techs. There are bar formats like I grabbed that can have anywhere from 2 to 4 COBs per light and output anywhere from 100w to 200w each. in an environment where you only run one light you can grab or build smaller COB fixtures (even one COB per fixture) and mix/match your spectrum to suit a single light for both veg + flower, or go one colour like say 4000k and use it for both. Many options, they do produce 2-3 times the weight that a blurple panel with older tech will in flowering.

Some good info, links and instructions on builds in the LED section here if you want to brush out on options. Lots of folks posting results as well. 
https://www.rollitup.org/f/led-and-other-lighting.124/

I'm running about 700w on average over a 3x8' area and pulling somewhere between 1.5-2 lbs. per run depending on what genetics I'm running. I've flowered under Blurples, CMH, and COBs, the COBs converted me not only for their production which is similar to CMH but the quality under the COBs is outstanding, best quality I've ever grown indoor or outdoor. Here's a run I just finished, the COBs run overhead as any light would, that panel on the left is just some testing I'm doing with a diy 660nm board to speed up the harvests.


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## Moe Flo (May 25, 2017)

HID lighting all through veg and pinching in first 3 weeks of flip works for me.


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## Odin88 (Oct 15, 2019)

So according to this thread it looks like there are four things needed to keep tight nodal spacing: LED Lighting, keeping light as close to the plant as possible without burning the plant, using a kelp product because the cytokinin hormone in kelp helps regulate growth and keeping a consistent temp with a 5 degree temperature differential.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 15, 2019)

that would be a good start. leds are good but not necessary. a good t5 florescent fixture works fine for veg, you just have to raise the plants up to it till they start to grow the way you want them


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## Nizza (Oct 15, 2019)

reducing nitrogen and phosphorus during the first 2-3 weeks of flower as well as using more blue light in general in veg and during early flowering period can help keep the nodes tight during stretch phase.

also keeping night temps within 5 degrees of day temperatures will reduce stretch


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## coreywebster (Oct 15, 2019)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> that would be a good start. leds are good but not necessary. a good t5 florescent fixture works fine for veg, you just have to raise the plants up to it till they start to grow the way you want them


Yeah the LED bit is a bit misleading since they come in all spectrums and intensities. I found a long time ago that cfl in 6500k made stupidly short internodes, so stupid it was detrimental, but that shows spectrum can play a huge part.


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## Dougs Nugs (Oct 15, 2019)

Nizza said:


> reducing nitrogen and phosphorus during the first 2-3 weeks of flower as well as using more blue light in general in veg and during early flowering period can help keep the nodes tight during stretch phase.
> 
> also keeping night temps within 5 degrees of day temperatures will reduce stretch


The temperature, light distance and pre loading the plant with enough NPK as there will be vigorous uptake.

Kelp and Humic acids are a huge win, foliar feeding during the first two weeks. you will be very pleased

Happy growing

Doug


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## 10WeekFlushBro (Oct 24, 2019)

There is this guy on reddit who seems to be a master of short internodes. He puts blue light on the stem and calls it selective light training. Google for "SuperAngryGuy" all credit to him. I don't like reddit, but it seems that he only hangs out there
Pea plant:


http://imgur.com/HZzCM

Jack herer:


http://imgur.com/dwLo5


Mystery skunk






I'd prefer a normal plant, but if short nodes what youre after this looks most promising.
Oh yeah, and PGRs


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## Nizza (Oct 24, 2019)

that's pretty cool!


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## 10WeekFlushBro (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeah I was shocked when I saw that. I dont know the guy but he wrote a lot of interesting stuff, definitely worth checkin out via a web search on his name. Cheers


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## Flowki (Oct 24, 2019)

In veg continually top nodes that are getting higher than the rest. The continues redirection keeps them smaller but you get more tops at the same height. A final topping a week before flip is fine if your growth is fast, you'll have to define what fast is. At flip, put a net about 6" above plants if you can, use this to tuck any dominant tops while others catch up. You can use 4 bamboo sticks per pot to do the same job if net isn't an option. It isn't as good as a net though. You will only need to bother tucking or tying every other day during stretch, wouldn't recommend any less than that.

With hps 18" height is usually good quality/yield for most 600w hps units. With cob/hlg etc it is more difficult to find the right range as the plants can still suffer light stress with no leaf curl. Yes it will keep them smaller but not in a good way. I don't even know a rough height to give since the variance of units and coverage is so large. You'd have to play around or see what others with the same units do. In any case, getting lights in a good range for veg/flower reduce over all height issues and better node spacing.

You actually want the plant to stretch as natural as possible as it will hold it's health better. Just control the height with low stress net training and be careful not to have lights too close for light stress stunting. Don't reduce nitrogen and all those kinds of anti-stretch tactics. If you reduce stretch in such ways you will lose plant vigour or see deficiencies by week 5 or so. Pinching stems IMO is also too harsh a thing to do in stretch.

Can't say for sure, but plants seem to compete with each other in height if they are too close together. If not that, you won't have the room to net train so either way, have good spacing.

These external roots grew within the stretch period, it shows how much healthy growth the plant can do during this phase. You don't want to over stress or stunt the plant during this part.


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## OzPacks (Nov 4, 2019)

blake9999 said:


> use B-Nine hormone.
> * Product description *
> B-Nine WSG Plant Growth Regulator works to regulate the height of plants by reducing the internode length of ornamentals.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/B-Nine-Growth-Regulator-Greenhouse-Nursery/dp/B004JVGY1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492354356&sr=8-1&keywords=b+nine


pgr aint good


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## ruxing (Nov 19, 2019)

Holie214 said:


> I am using an LED 6" above the plants and they are only about 5" with 6 to 7 nodes. This is about 4 1/2 weeks after seeds sprouted.


Wow! 5" and 7 node! They gonna need a microscope to top em! Hahahaha


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## rustyshaclkferd (Nov 19, 2019)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> seaweed, especially cold water seaweed like kelp, has a pgr (plant growth regulator) in it called cytokinin, that does exactly what you want, they are basically the opposite of auxins.


What this man said...internode length can be contrilled by hormone resposne or training techniques..lst, fim, mainlining...


also you can mechanically induce a plant response by bouncing the tops with your hand....

I know sounds dumb but when you continually bend the terminal node of a branch it has an effect similar to topping but less. It temporarily causes the plant to allocate more terminal growth hormones to dustribute more equally among lower branches. In effect arresting vertical growth for branching growth.

Heavy defaning of any lower canopy fan leaf to increase points of light. Also causing side branching.

Same as using multiple lights verses 1 1k light...more points of light , more atypical hormone displacement.

I wouldn't use b-nine or paclobutrazol based products or any growth regulators...clonex is bad enough these are systemic and have insane half lives in your plants tissue...

And are primarily designed and approved for horticulture..aka things you don't smoke and inhale ...normally. 

Im sure their are safe versions with snaller half lifes. Ive heard of a grower usign a-rest.... im very skeptical


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## PadawanWarrior (Nov 19, 2019)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> seaweed, especially cold water seaweed like kelp, has a pgr (plant growth regulator) in it called cytokinin, that does exactly what you want, they are basically the opposite of auxins.





GroErr said:


> That's a good summary of some techniques I've tried and validated through testing.
> 
> For the stretch period one thing it doesn't mention is managing the difference between veg kelvin and flowering kelvin. That is one of the biggest factors from what I've seen in testing. The greater the difference in colour/kelvin, the greater the stretch. In other words most stretch would be if you were vegging with 6500k and flowering with hps (2300k). So managing the stretch can be managed (greater or less) by choosing or forcing specific light colours during the first couple of weeks. An example to reduce stretch might be running a HID lamp with higher blue ratings during the stretch period, then switching it to hps. imo this is why you'll often hear folks flowering with hps, then switching to LED's for flowering seeing a big difference in reduced stretch under LED's. The most common LED kelvin rating is 3500k for flowering, so without changing veg light kelvin rating, flipping to hps in flowering vs. LED's will produce much more stretch, all other factors being equal. Prior to flowering with 3500k COBs I was using 315w CMH with a 3100k bulb and even with only a 400k difference there was a notable difference in stretch between CMH and COBs.
> 
> ...


These guys sum it up better than I ever could. I use the negative DIF or close to negative DIF tactic and it works well for me to control stretch. I also feed them kelp, but didn't even know about the cytokinins and their effects with stretch. I'm glad I read up on negative DIF though, and have done it ever since I learned about it. And if I do want them to stretch more all I have to do is lower night temp, or I could feed them with cooler water which will make them stretch more too. I just thought these guys have awesome answers that a lot can learn from, I did.


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## rustyshaclkferd (Nov 20, 2019)

The plant mechnaism in which type of light wave affects internode length, phototropism or phototropic response. 

Watching it under time lapse footage is kinda hypnotic


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