# New High Times Suggests Harvesting Earlier...RIU Rejoice!



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 20, 2011)

New High Times has an article that says Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg has done a study proving that trichromes are most potent when clear-not milky and certainly not amber. Can anyone find this study without spending 3 days reading everything the guy ever wrote?


----------



## cowasaki (Jan 20, 2011)

sounds to me like someone tryin to get you to smoke some immature bud bro... i would stick with what works milky is the way to go


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 20, 2011)

cowasaki said:


> sounds to me like someone tryin to get you to smoke some immature bud bro... i would stick with what works milky is the way to go


I certainly wasn't looking for some 'excuse' to harvest early. I got all of that out of my system the first year or so of growing, buying anything that claimed to make it flower faster. I know none of that shit works, but you should see the facility that some guy named 'K' has. Sure looks like he'd know a thing or 2. He's got 2 Twister trim machines...that's $30,000 just in trimmers! Facility is unbeleivable.


----------



## KillaGreenBuds (Jan 20, 2011)

If the guys got an article in High Times i wouldn't just say he's wrong lol, I'd like to see the article though maybe the mans right


----------



## krok (Jan 20, 2011)

I guess he's simply writing what people are beginning to realise. CBD and CBN is not the same, and peak THC is not amber. Peak THC will give couchlock, depending on genetics. Some people are harvesting their Indicas too late, thinking the more amber the better.


----------



## Serapis (Jan 20, 2011)

krok said:


> I guess he's simply writing what people are beginning to realise. CBD and CBN is not the same, and peak THC is not amber. Peak THC will give couchlock, depending on genetics. Some people are harvesting their Indicas too late, thinking the more amber the better.


It's not the more amber the better... We actually know that it's ideal at about 12-15% amber. The unspent trichomes will be producing their top resin levels at this point. You can go ahead and chop when clear, more power to ya.


----------



## krok (Jan 20, 2011)

Serapis said:


> It's not the more amber the better... We actually know that it's ideal at about 12-15% amber. The unspent trichomes will be producing their top resin levels at this point. You can go ahead and chop when clear, more power to ya.


Why the f*ck should I chop when clear? And no, most people don't know. Maybe not here, but on most forums I read they say chop when 50% amber (which is crap IMHO).

If the article is about harvesting when clear, then it probably is crap. I've not read it.


----------



## Hogg (Jan 21, 2011)

krok said:


> I guess he's simply writing what people are beginning to realise. CBD and CBN is not the same, and peak THC is not amber. Peak THC will give couchlock, depending on genetics. Some people are harvesting their Indicas too late, thinking the more amber the better.


Finally! someone with some sense..I been lol for years about all these post on here spouting the Amber trichs nonesense. Guess they like that crappy messed up feeling CBN gives you...


----------



## Serapis (Jan 21, 2011)

Hogg said:


> Finally! someone with some sense..I been lol for years about all these post on here spouting the Amber trichs nonesense. Guess they like that crappy messed up feeling CBN gives you...


If people like the couch lock feel, more power to them. That is their opinion. If it is so crappy as you say, why do growers do it again and again?

It's up to the grower and their personal preference, and the strain of weed as well. If my stigmas are all still white and the calyxes haven't swelled yet, I don't care what color the trichomes are, it ain't done.


----------



## rocpilefsj (Jan 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> If people like the couch lock feel, more power to them. That is their opinion. If it is so crappy as you say, why do growers do it again and again?
> 
> It's up to the grower and their personal preference, and the strain of weed as well. If my stigmas are all still white and the calyxes haven't swelled yet, I don't care what color the trichomes are, it ain't done.


I agree with you on the tric subject. People look too much into the trics when they also need to be looking at the buds. I could have chopped alot of plants way too early just by judging based on trics. People also need to realize not everyone smokes weed just to get high, many people use it as medication as well. So for some peoples benefit a couch lock or narcotic high is exactly what they are looking for.


----------



## dsnutts (Jan 21, 2011)

Bottom line is grow it how YOU like it!


----------



## woodsmaneh! (Jan 21, 2011)

Well I grow Indica and the people who smoke it like clear to cloudy, which gives you ether couch lock or you eat the fridge. I can never wait 75 to 80 days anyhow. The other thing is the trichromes continue to brake down after you chop. I have always beleived

Clear = up high active stone can get work done

milky = couch lock/mad munchies

amber = garbage, sleepy time

IMHO


----------



## FarmerJJ (Jan 21, 2011)

Harvesting earlier(clear to milky trichomes) has been shown to cause psychological problems over a long period of time. Not sure if this effects too many peoples judgment on when or when not to harvest.


----------



## screaminsemen (Jan 21, 2011)

FarmerJJ said:


> Harvesting earlier(clear to milky trichomes) has been shown to cause psychological problems over a long period of time. Not sure if this effects too many peoples judgment on when or when not to harvest.


Where exactly has this been shown??


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 21, 2011)

Agreed
JUst harvested a bunch when they were just starting to get cloudy, I tossed them on 48 of dark, the bitches swelled like hell and I cropped yesterday. Quick dried some, and smoked it. Great HIGH not a stone at all. Pain relief, I really didn't notice, I was just feeling too good to care, so I guess that works out. I will be harvesting my weed at that point (to the best of my ability) from here on in. Too many people are obsessed with weight, and let shit get big and heavy (and amber), but give a ho hum stone that can be bought anywhere these days. When you have weed that gets you high as fuck, happy as fuck and active as fuck, people remember that shit and usually go out of their way for it. It sets your crop apart and gives you a bit of bargaining room that can possibly makeup for the loss in weight, as your product can separate itself from the masses.



woodsmaneh! said:


> Well I grow Indica and the people who smoke it like clear to cloudy, which gives you ether couch lock or you eat the fridge. I can never wait 75 to 80 days anyhow. The other thing is the trichromes continue to brake down after you chop. I have always beleived
> 
> Clear = up high active stone can get work done
> 
> ...


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 21, 2011)

I would imagine that the isomeric breakdown of remnant carboxylic acids (which I would imagine to be higher if cut early) underlines that although cropping earlier = more THC, a good proper cure is just as important as the early crop. Although, with this logic, CBN is created mainly during the curing process, so under the same token, possibly a shorter cure would bolster such desired outcomes. 

Lets think about this then:

For an early crop:
Early crop = more carboxylic acids, about the same THC, and less CBD.

Cure = Carboxylic turns to THC, existing THC breaks down to CBD and CBN. THC overall level may edge up a bit, but probably ends up holding the line.

For a Later Crop:
Later cropping = Less Carboxylic acids, More THC, and a good presence of CBD and compared to the early crop.

Cure = Less THC is yielded from the Carboxylic acids, and the existing THC breaks down into CBD and CBN. 


So even though you start out with more THC on a later cure, you will probably end up with less THC (as it will not be replenished through the curing process), or a shittier high as the CBN (which will be in higher quantities with the later cure) will block the THC from getting to more of your brain receptors.
Article makes some sense. 

So I suppose, with this thinking, a later crop should cure for less time to retain THC levels. So fuck the taste. And if you crop early, cure for a normal period of time to have the carboxylic acids fully turn to THC.

If you are selling however, once you hit a certain quality threshold: weight = money. This maybe a better tip for head stash, or people pin pointing depression.


----------



## Serapis (Jan 21, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> .....When you have weed that gets you high as fuck, happy as fuck and active as fuck, people remember that shit and usually go out of their way for it. It sets your crop apart and gives you a bit of bargaining room that can possibly makeup for the loss in weight, as your product can separate itself from the masses.


I agree with you on that, however I harvest my Indicas when about 10-15% of the trich is amber, the stigmas are drying out and changing color AND the calyxes have filled with resin.... Those of you that only look to trich's as your ripening meter are probably harvesting too soon, but you know what? That is OK. It is your weed after all and why should you care what others think? 

You incorrectly tag growers that wait for ripening bud as obsessed with weight. I find your point of view pretty funny, given all of the threads about "Can I chop yet?" Those that wait are patient, we know what we want, regardless of what you think we should want......


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 21, 2011)

Its a plant by plant thing...there is no rule, the plant will tell you when it is time to chop it...I Just see people who keep shit on there until its hermie'd from over-ripening so they can get an extra 1/4 ounce. Yes it makes sense, but just like a steak, sure you can eat a streak that is over cooked (just to be sure its done), but you would rather have one that is prepared properly. At some point your start to sacrifice quality for weight, Im not saying that you do that, but it is common practice it seems. 

Regarding those can I chop yet threads: There are just as many answers that say no don't do it. You will even see people suggesting to wait until you see male flowers.



Serapis said:


> I agree with you on that, however I harvest my Indicas when about 10-15% of the trich is amber, the stigmas are drying out and changing color AND the calyxes have filled with resin.... Those of you that only look to trich's as your ripening meter are probably harvesting too soon, but you know what? That is OK. It is your weed after all and why should you care what others think?
> 
> You incorrectly tag growers that wait for ripening bud as obsessed with weight. I find your point of view pretty funny, given all of the threads about "Can I chop yet?" Those that wait are patient, we know what we want, regardless of what you think we should want......


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 21, 2011)

Serapis said:


> I agree with you on that, however I harvest my Indicas when about 10-15% of the trich is amber, the stigmas are drying out and changing color AND the calyxes have filled with resin.... Those of you that only look to trich's as your ripening meter are probably harvesting too soon, but you know what? That is OK. It is your weed after all and why should you care what others think?
> 
> You incorrectly tag growers that wait for ripening bud as obsessed with weight. I find your point of view pretty funny, given all of the threads about "Can I chop yet?" Those that wait are patient, we know what we want, regardless of what you think we should want......


You make good points but I think that it is safe to assume that the potencey of the THC may not be at it's peak levels at the same time that the stigmas are drying out and changing in color. In other words THC potency may be at it's peak levels before the plant is fully ripened or finished. Ergo, you may have better tasting or smelling plants and more weight (which i know you dont care about) but lower levels of THC in the finished product.


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 21, 2011)

Caveman thinks this is ready for harvest tomorrow. It is White Berry From Paradise Seeds at day 60 flower.


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 23, 2011)

Cut it I suppose, more pics would be nice



CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> View attachment 1395329Caveman thinks this is ready for harvest tomorrow. It is White Berry From Paradise Seeds at day 60 flower.


----------



## d.s.m. (Jan 23, 2011)

I was forced to harvest my personal grow at least a week or two early. Mostly clear to some cloudy. Turned out to be some amazing smoke. Beautiful, soaring high, and holy shit does food taste delicious..


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 26, 2011)

This thread is interesting and innovative let's keep it going. BUMP. Anyone else with any opinions or experience to share???


----------



## cdogg23 (Jan 26, 2011)

I cut down white widow, og18, and northern lights at 6 weeks a while back it was some really tasty smoke with an energizing high. But i wouldn't recommend it.


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 26, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> Cut it I suppose, more pics would be nice


Here is the same plant from above after 4 days of hang dry, on it's way to jars. It's White Berry from Paradise seeds. I need a better camera or something cause theese pictures don't do it justice!


----------



## tardis (Jan 26, 2011)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> New High Times has an article that says Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg has done a study proving that trichromes are most potent when clear-not milky and certainly not amber. Can anyone find this study without spending 3 days reading everything the guy ever wrote?


bullshit.

in MY experience in 2010 i've found that clear is bunk, milky is strong, and amber is relaxing. best to harvest when all or almost all clear are gone, and it is mainly milky with some very noticable amber.


----------



## tardis (Jan 26, 2011)

d.s.m. said:


> I was forced to harvest my personal grow at least a week or two early. Mostly clear to some cloudy. Turned out to be some amazing smoke. Beautiful, soaring high, and holy shit does food taste delicious..


What i've found is the earlier you harvest the more soaring the high but the SHORTER the high lasts... Say one soaring puff and 20-30 minutes later you are kinda hungover. whereas mostly cloudy with some amber can give you an amazing high which lasts 2+ hours.


----------



## Micromaster (Jan 26, 2011)

Amber trichs is just oxidized thc


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 26, 2011)

tardis said:


> bullshit.
> 
> in MY experience in 2010 i've found that clear is bunk, milky is strong, and amber is relaxing. best to harvest when all or almost all clear are gone, and it is mainly milky with some very noticable amber.


Okay you can't just walk in and shut down this guys research article which he obviously spent alot of time on and got published in High Times and have no type of real or scientific evidence to back up your claims. Personal opininion/experience is not enough. THIS is real evidence and science which makes complete sense and presents a much more valid arguement than you.

""I would imagine that the isomeric breakdown of remnant carboxylic acids (which I would imagine to be higher if cut early) underlines that although cropping earlier = more THC, a good proper cure is just as important as the early crop. Although, with this logic, CBN is created mainly during the curing process, so under the same token, possibly a shorter cure would bolster such desired outcomes. 

Lets think about this then:

For an early crop:
Early crop = more carboxylic acids, about the same THC, and less CBD.

Cure = Carboxylic turns to THC, existing THC breaks down to CBD and CBN. THC overall level may edge up a bit, but probably ends up holding the line.

For a Later Crop:
Later cropping = Less Carboxylic acids, More THC, and a good presence of CBD and compared to the early crop.

Cure = Less THC is yielded from the Carboxylic acids, and the existing THC breaks down into CBD and CBN. 


So even though you start out with more THC on a later cure, you will probably end up with less THC (as it will not be replenished through the curing process), or a shittier high as the CBN (which will be in higher quantities with the later cure) will block the THC from getting to more of your brain receptors.
Article makes some sense. 

So I suppose, with this thinking, a later crop should cure for less time to retain THC levels. So fuck the taste. And if you crop early, cure for a normal period of time to have the carboxylic acids fully turn to THC.

If you are selling however, once you hit a certain quality threshold: weight = money. This maybe a better tip for head stash, or people pin pointing depression.""


Obviously we are going to have to side with this guy who obviously has presented real evidence and proof of the possibility that there will be a higher present THC content in the Trichromes of finished buds which were taken down when the Trichromes were clear v.s. mostly cloudy and or amber in appearence. I will definately be putting this to the test with my sativas can't wait. Amber trichromes point to the presence of more CBN which, as you can see above, leads to a shittier feeling high. ​


----------



## thedude27 (Jan 27, 2011)

You have to also consider the majority of the trics' which is why sometimes its better to harvest when a few are starting to turn amber, as some of the clears at that point are just reaching full size and numbers. This really isnt new, in fact its incredibly old information. Go look at Ed and Mel's MJ growers handbook, I've had a copy since the 80's, Ed states that you should harvest when clear for the most THC. You need to consider if there are still trics that are growing while everything is clear. If you had say 1000 clear trics but if you wait another 2 weeks and you have 200 new clears, 600 still clear 400 milkly you are probably better off. For a single trich, I think its pretty much a scientific fact that this is when you will have the most THC for that one trich, I dont really think its disputable. Of course there are some reasons for wanting more CBD/N those are also things to consider. There is no one answer to the question, but if you understand the concepts involved you can make an educated decision as to what you want to do. Things like if you plan to harvest in stages, then you probably want to harvest top bud earlier than if you are going to cut the entire plant at 1 time because the top buds which you will be harvesting are at their most potent stage. Where you might wait a little longer till some of the lower buds are have grown more trichs if you do the entire plant at 1 time.


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 27, 2011)

I agree with you just imo amber trichs are bad. At the very latest i would harvest when I saw the very first amber trich or at least start my 2 days of darkness b4 harvest.


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 27, 2011)

Alex Kelly said:


> Okay you can't just walk in and shut down this guys research article which he obviously spent alot of time on and got published in High Times and have no type of real or scientific evidence to back up your claims. Personal opininion/experience is not enough. THIS is real evidence and science which makes complete sense and presents a much more valid arguement than you.
> 
> ""I would imagine that the isomeric breakdown of remnant carboxylic acids (which I would imagine to be higher if cut early) underlines that although cropping earlier = more THC, a good proper cure is just as important as the early crop. Although, with this logic, CBN is created mainly during the curing process, so under the same token, possibly a shorter cure would bolster such desired outcomes.
> 
> ...


All comments are welcome but ones like theese are most helpful. +rep


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

Yeah the problem is knowing when to harvest clear trichs, if you harvest too early you get fucked, if you harvest too late, you missed the boat, so you really have to take the cues from the plant. When you start to see even a few milky, I would go to 48 of dark and get the trim station ready.


----------



## tardis (Jan 27, 2011)

Alex Kelly said:


> Okay you can't just walk in and shut down this guys research article which he obviously spent alot of time on and got published in High Times and have no type of real or scientific evidence to back up your claims. Personal opininion/experience is not enough. THIS is real evidence and science which makes complete sense and presents a much more valid arguement than you.
> 
> ""I would imagine that the isomeric breakdown of remnant carboxylic acids (which I would imagine to be higher if cut early) underlines that although cropping earlier = more THC, a good proper cure is just as important as the early crop. Although, with this logic, CBN is created mainly during the curing process, so under the same token, possibly a shorter cure would bolster such desired outcomes.
> 
> ...


Anytime I've harvested any plant too early, as for example one OG Kush #18 which along side its ready sister I harvested, it was nowhere near as potent or enjoyable. I'm speaking from MY limited newbie experience, and i'm not going to harvest a 10 week strain at week 5 or 6 no matter what this article says. Was the word "bullshit" much too harsh? Perhaps. 

I'm going to keep doing it my way as anytime i've experimented with what they are suggesting i've been greatly dissapointed.


----------



## GreatwhiteNorth (Jan 27, 2011)

FarmerJJ said:


> Harvesting earlier(clear to milky trichomes) has been shown to cause psychological problems over a long period of time.


Psycological problems? I've never heard that, how about quoting a reference for your information.
I'll wait.


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

Try cutting it at week 3 next time, I got good results. 



tardis said:


> Anytime I've harvested any plant too early, as for example one OG Kush #18 which along side its ready sister I harvested, it was nowhere near as potent or enjoyable. I'm speaking from MY limited newbie experience, and i'm not going to harvest a 10 week strain at week 5 or 6 no matter what this article says. Was the word "bullshit" much too harsh? Perhaps.
> 
> I'm going to keep doing it my way as anytime i've experimented with what they are suggesting i've been greatly dissapointed.


----------



## trichome fiend (Jan 27, 2011)

FarmerJJ said:


> Harvesting earlier(clear to milky trichomes) has been shown to cause psychological problems over a long period of time. Not sure if this effects too many peoples judgment on when or when not to harvest.





GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Psycological problems? I've never heard that, how about quoting a reference for your information.
> I'll wait.


...I'll be waiting also.


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

Quote from another forum:

In the article "Resin Factory", HT travels to a huge grow op where the owner talks about harvesting when the trichs are just starting to turn milky (most of them are clear) after reading notes from a study by Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg . Here is a quote from the HT article:

"Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg who found that THC in the resin head is at it's peak when it's still _clear _- not opaque and certainly not amber. Dr. Mahlberg stuck a tiny syringe into the bulbous head of the trichome and extracted it's contents, then analyzed it for THC. The result: Without a doubt, THC is at it's highest *before* the trichome turns opaque."

End Quote

He's not say week 5 or 6 he is saying like half a week or a week earlier than you normally would. Harvest at the very first sight of milky trichs. Much like I said. Much like I do. Potent as fuck. Milky = loss of THC. Amber = Distinct loss of THC, and much higher levels of CBN. 

Chemistry is chemistry. But of course with anything these days, opinions weigh more than facts...So lets debate a pointless and baseless argument some more. This guy is a biology professor for the University of Indiana, whose specialty is the "Ultra structure of the _resin_-producing gland". All of the veterans I have seen weigh in on when to harvest say clear. These people have their shit together, and have literally, in every sense of the word, brought this down to a science. I would just love to hear what your opinion means to raw data, chemistry, and experience. 

Of course there are people who say, "my customers love my pot". That is true. But people also love mcdonalds, people also love brick weed. That has no bearing on this argument. My customers love getting high, if what I have gets them high, then they love it. Bottom line. 

This article is not for every grower by any or all means. This is for people striving for an every more clear and THC laced high, in lieu of a couch lock stone (or something). This will indeed lower your yield, and maybe one should just try to cut a piece of one part of the plant off at this stage for head stash and compare it to later harvested bud. This way people can have more subjective fodder to put up against data, education, experience and facts.


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

Introduction to an interview with Dr. Mahlberg: 

"One of only two DEA permits to grow _Cannabis_ in the United States is held by Dr. Paul Mahlberg of the Biology Department at Indiana University, Bloomington. His research program began over 20 years ago and continues to the present, specializing in the ultra structure of the resin-producing gland and the biogenesis of its cannabinoids. With his post-doctoral fellows and graduate students, he has explored these and other topics important to the definition of _Cannabis_ as either a drug or fiber plant."

Link to interview -> http://www.hempfood.com/iha/iha02114.html


----------



## Pureblood89 (Jan 27, 2011)

The coloration of the gland heads can vary with different strains and maturity, but most start with clear or slightly amber heads that gradually become cloudy or opaque when THC levels have peaked and are beginning to degrade. Regardless of the initial color of the trichomes, with careful observation you should be able to see a change in coloration as maturity levels off. Some cultivators wait for about half of the trichomes to go opaque before harvesting to ensure maximum THC levels in the finished product. However, you will also want to try samples at various stages to see what is best for you. While you may be increasing the total THC level in the cannabis by allowing half of the glands to go opaque, there will also be a larger percentage of CBN, which is why some people choose to harvest earlier while most of the trichomes are still clear.

Logan Edwards is the author of _Grow Great Marijuana: An Uncomplicated Guide to Growing the World's Finest Cannabis_


----------



## Pureblood89 (Jan 27, 2011)

Clear = High THC, No CBN
Cloudy = Higher THC, Moderate CBN
Amber = Higher CBN, Low THC

Is what I got from that article.


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

CBN is like methadone for THC, it binds to the THC receptors and blocks the THC from activating the nervous response it should at those receptors. Every bit of CBN is anti-THC. Granted each strain is different, but harvesting when you begin to see milky trichs is a pretty good indicator of highest potency and lowest CBN. I wouldn't go as far a having half cloudy, especially since I do 48 of dark once I spot some cloudy trichs. Two days after you see half cloudy, you are already seeing amber here and there, fully ready to negate all the THC in those milky trichs. 



Pureblood89 said:


> The coloration of the gland heads can vary with different strains and maturity, but most start with clear or slightly amber heads that gradually become cloudy or opaque when THC levels have peaked and are beginning to degrade. Regardless of the initial color of the trichomes, with careful observation you should be able to see a change in coloration as maturity levels off. Some cultivators wait for about half of the trichomes to go opaque before harvesting to ensure maximum THC levels in the finished product. However, you will also want to try samples at various stages to see what is best for you. While you may be increasing the total THC level in the cannabis by allowing half of the glands to go opaque, there will also be a larger percentage of CBN, which is why some people choose to harvest earlier while most of the trichomes are still clear.
> 
> Logan Edwards is the author of _Grow Great Marijuana: An Uncomplicated Guide to Growing the World's Finest Cannabis_


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 27, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> Yeah the problem is knowing when to harvest clear trichs, if you harvest too early you get fucked, if you harvest too late, you missed the boat, so you really have to take the cues from the plant. When you start to see even a few milky, I would go to 48 of dark and get the trim station ready.


I agree completely. Due to this thread. IMO, when harvesting a sativa cannabis plant, look for the very first cloudy trichromes on the plant and throw it into darkness. I could definately understand harvesting indicas later on for more of a couchlock high due to higher CBD (not CBN). N thx Captain. Knowlege and help is what I seek.


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 27, 2011)

Why even flower? LOL 



Hudsonvalley82 said:


> Try cutting it at week 3 next time, I got good results.


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 27, 2011)

Pureblood89 said:


> Clear = High THC, No CBN
> Cloudy = Higher THC, Moderate CBN
> Amber = Higher CBN, Low THC
> 
> Is what I got from that article.


Me too. And great info Hudson!!!


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

There was a touch of combative sarcasm in that one.



Alex Kelly said:


> Why even flower? LOL


----------



## Pureblood89 (Jan 27, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> CBN is like methadone for THC, it binds to the THC receptors and blocks the THC from activating the nervous response it should at those receptors. Every bit of CBN is anti-THC. Granted each strain is different, but harvesting when you begin to see milky trichs is a pretty good indicator of highest potency and lowest CBN. I wouldn't go as far a having half cloudy, especially since I do 48 of dark once I spot some cloudy trichs. Two days after you see half cloudy, you are already seeing amber here and there, fully ready to negate all the THC in those milky trichs.


Not really, Methadone is an almost perfect agonist, it blocks all opiate receptors in the brain. Cannabinol is a very weak agonist, it binds to cb1 and cb2 receptors in the brain, but it's affinity is much weaker than that of THC, which means the bonds are weaker and don't happen as they do with THC. Cannabinol in any amount cannot fully cancel the affect of THC.


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

Very true, but it sure can dampen the blow of THC. And one would be advised to do what you can to limit the CBN in the marijuana being produced. Is that not true? 

The methadone reference was a touch more idealistic to portray (albeit loosely) the activity of CBN in the brain. The affinity is weaker, yet present. 

To save typing, and to probably reiterate something already displayed in this forum somewhere:

Tetrahydrocannabinol - THC

Delta 9-trans-tetrahydrocannabinol - delta-9 THC is the main psychotomimetic (mindbending) ingredient of marijuana. Estimates state that 70 to 100 percent of the marijuana high results from the delta-9 THC present. It occurs in almost all cannabis in concentrations that vary from traces to about 95 percent of all the cannabinoids in the sample.

In very potent strains, carefully prepared marijuana can be 30 percent delta-9 THC by dry weight (seeds and stems removed from flowering buds). Buds are the popular name given to masses of female flowers that form distinct clusters.

Delta 8-trans-tetrahydrocannabinol - delta-8 THC is reported in low concentration, less than one percent of the delta-9 THC present. Its activity is slightly less than that of delta-9 THC. It may be an artefact of the extraction/analysis process. Almost everyone who uses the term THC, refers to delta-9 THC and delta-8 THC combined, as THC.

Cannabidiol - CBD

Cannabidiol - CBD also occurs in almost all strains. Concentration range from none, to about 95 percent of the total cannabinoids present. THC and CBD are the two most abundant naturally occurring cannabinoids. CBD is not psychotomimetic in the pure form, although it does have sedative, analgesic, and antibiotic properties.

In order for CBD to affect the high, THC must be present in quantities ordinarily psychoactive. CBD can contribute to the high by interacting with THC to potentiate (enhance) or antagonize (interfere or lessen) certain qualities of the high.

CBD appears to potentiate the depressant effects of THC and antagonize is excitatory effects. CBD also delays the onset of the high but can make it last considerably longer (as much as twice as long). The kind of grass that takes a while to come on but keeps coming on.

Opinions are conflicting as to whether it increases or decreases the intensity of the high, intensity and high being difficult to define. Terms such as knock-out or sleepy, dreamlike, or melancholic are often used to describe the high from grass with sizeable proportions of CBD and THC.

When only small amounts of THC are present with high proportions of CBD, the high is more of a buzz, and the mind feels dull and the body de-energized.

Cannabinol - CBN

Cannabinol - CBN is not produced by the plant per se. It is the degradation (oxidative) product of THC. Fresh samples of marijuana contain very little CBN but curing, poor storage, or processing such as when making hashish, can cause much of the THC to be oxidized to CBN. Pure forms of CBN have at most 10 percent of the psychoactivity of THC.

Like CBD, it is suspected of potentiating certain aspects of the high, although so far these effects appear to be slight. CBN seems to potentiate THC's disorienting qualities. One may feel more dizzy or drugged or generally messed up but not necessarily higher.

In fact, with a high proportion of CBN, the high may start well but feels as if it never quite reaches its peak, and when coming down one feels tired or sleepy. High CBN in homegrown grass is not desirable since it represents a loss of 90 percent of the psychoactivity of its precursor THC.
Source: http://www.420magazine.com/forums/cannabis-facts-information/76763-marijuana-cannabinoids-thc-cbd-cbn.html

A little break down of the big 3 cannabinoids. Long story short - CBN = Bad. 



Pureblood89 said:


> Not really, Methadone is an almost perfect agonist, it blocks all opiate receptors in the brain. Cannabinol is a very weak agonist, it binds to cb1 and cb2 receptors in the brain, but it's affinity is much weaker than that of THC, which means the bonds are weaker and don't happen as they do with THC. Cannabinol in any amount cannot fully cancel the affect of THC.


----------



## obama64 (Jan 27, 2011)

Hogg said:


> Finally! someone with some sense..I been lol for years about all these post on here spouting the Amber trichs nonesense. Guess they like that crappy messed up feeling CBN gives you...


 *It's up to the grower and their personal preference, and the strain of weed as well. If my stigmas are all still white and the calyxes haven't swelled yet, I don't care what color the trichomes are, it ain't done. 


______________________
iphone book reader
iphone ebook
*


----------



## Pureblood89 (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm gonna try 50/50 clear to milky, It's makes sense when you think about. Clear trichomes mean that the CBD is breaking down into THC faster than the older THC is degrading into CBN, milky means it's just reached it's zenith and is starting the degradation process, the older THC is degrading faster than new THC can be created. So basically half are slightly before their prime, and half are just past their prime, wouldn't you be at peak THC right in the middle?


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 27, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> Introduction to an interview with Dr. Mahlberg:
> 
> "One of only two DEA permits to grow _Cannabis_ in the United States is held by Dr. Paul Mahlberg of the Biology Department at Indiana University, Bloomington. His research program began over 20 years ago and continues to the present, specializing in the ultra structure of the resin-producing gland and the biogenesis of its cannabinoids. With his post-doctoral fellows and graduate students, he has explored these and other topics important to the definition of _Cannabis_ as either a drug or fiber plant."
> 
> Link to interview -> http://www.hempfood.com/iha/iha02114.html


THANK YOU hudson! That answers my original question!


----------



## GreatwhiteNorth (Jan 27, 2011)

Serapis said:


> It's up to the grower and their personal preference, and the strain of weed as well. If my stigmas are all still white and the calyxes haven't swelled yet, I don't care what color the trichomes are, it ain't done.





obama64 said:


> It's up to the grower and their personal preference, and the strain of weed as well. If my stigmas are all still white and the calyxes haven't swelled yet, I don't care what color the trichomes are, it ain't done.


Plagerize much?


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 27, 2011)

CBD isn't really the mother of THC, Carboxylic acid is. Carboxylic acid breaks down into THC and CBD as well as the rest of the cannabinoid crew. That cloudiness is only an indicator of cannabinoid presence, not THC. Try it at 25% cloudy. After a good cure that should do you. You really want the most even carboxylic acid to THC ratio, not the CBD to THC ratio. That is found when you get around 1/4 cloudy for the plant, which would indicate that the younger trichs have now gotten into the ball park of where you want them to be. The remainder of the oxidation is in the cure, in which that residual carboxylic acid oxidizes (which actually isn't the correct term) into THC, some CBD and other cannabinoids. That lands you with the highest amount of THC and the lowest amount of CBN when things are cured and done.

Im not trying to make a big deal out of this, but I am learning quite a bit, so this back and forth is pretty awesome. 



Pureblood89 said:


> I'm gonna try 50/50 clear to milky, It's makes sense when you think about. Clear trichomes mean that the CBD is breaking down into THC faster than the older THC is degrading into CBN, milky means it's just reached it's zenith and is starting the degradation process, the older THC is degrading faster than new THC can be created. So basically half are slightly before their prime, and half are just past their prime, wouldn't you be at peak THC right in the middle?


----------



## TheOrganic (Jan 27, 2011)

Alex Kelly said:


> Why even flower? LOL


Im sorry but that was the most fucking stupid post Ive seen yet fuck me I hope the world does end in 2012.

Not about why even flower sorry wrong reply....the guy saying about harvesting in what 5weeks OMG someone shoot me please!


----------



## Mother's Finest (Jan 27, 2011)

It doesn't matter what anyone says about when to harvest, even the breeder of the strain. Pot is finished when the people smoking it most enjoy it. Advice can be helpful with a strain you have no experience with but even then, tricks like the microwave quick-dry technique can tell you better than any person how the plant's high is progressing.


----------



## TheOrganic (Jan 27, 2011)

Mother's Finest said:


> It doesn't matter what anyone says about when to harvest, even the breeder of the strain. Pot is finished when the people smoking it most enjoy it. Advice can be helpful with a strain you have no experience with but even then, tricks like the microwave quick-dry technique can tell you better than any person how the plant's high is progressing.


You said it man. Pick small buds when you think your ready and quick dry too tell what you like. I never used MICRowave but putting a small bud on your coffee table for a day and a half works too or in a wooden drawer.

By the way how do you use your micro. too dry curious?


----------



## TheOrganic (Jan 27, 2011)

Mother's Finest said:


> It doesn't matter what anyone says about when to harvest, even the breeder of the strain. Pot is finished when the people smoking it most enjoy it. Advice can be helpful with a strain you have no experience with but even then, tricks like the microwave quick-dry technique can tell you better than any person how the plant's high is progressing.


Fucking word bro all this is hear say find out yourself!!!!!


----------



## Mother's Finest (Jan 27, 2011)

Not really these days. We already know how our strain looks at each stage of ripeness, so the only thing testing buds does for our plants is to give them a little stress. When we've started new strains in the past, we'd start one plant three weeks earlier than the others and microwave a tiny sample of it every 5-6 days or so as harvest approaches. Once we found the ideal ripeness, the other plants got cut down after a few days less flowering than the first.


----------



## newworldicon (Jan 27, 2011)

Serapis said:


> If people like the couch lock feel, more power to them. That is their opinion. If it is so crappy as you say, why do growers do it again and again?
> 
> It's up to the grower and their personal preference, and the strain of weed as well. If my stigmas are all still white and the calyxes haven't swelled yet, I don't care what color the trichomes are, it ain't done.


There's truth in that last statement!


----------



## TheOrganic (Jan 27, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> Introduction to an interview with Dr. Mahlberg:
> 
> "One of only two DEA permits to grow _Cannabis_ in the United States is held by Dr. Paul Mahlberg of the Biology Department at Indiana University, Bloomington. His research program began over 20 years ago and continues to the present, specializing in the ultra structure of the resin-producing gland and the biogenesis of its cannabinoids. With his post-doctoral fellows and graduate students, he has explored these and other topics important to the definition of _Cannabis_ as either a drug or fiber plant."
> 
> Link to interview -> http://www.hempfood.com/iha/iha02114.html


Sounds like that scientist got high off is study bunch of crap its a fucking weed. Find your keeper and go!

I bet smart growers have the same exp. as this guy and did the same thing.


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 28, 2011)

Here is an excellent example of 'the plant saying it is ready to harvest.' This is Bubba Kush pre '98 at day 58. I agree with serapis. The calendar gets me close and then the plant will let me know when it is ready. This one really showed it's fall colors.


----------



## IXOYE (Jan 28, 2011)

What does "more potent" mean to the good Dr. Mahlberg?
My plants are a month into flower - all clear trichs of course - and I sampled/quick dried with my vape. The high was very nice, creative, busy bee kinda' high. But I agree with Tardis there was kinda' a "hung over" feel the next morning. A month is way early of course but curiosity was getting to me. I'll certainly be waiting til she fills out for another month at least before I try a sample again. I think it's best, though, to harvest a few branches in a couple stages (clear, cloudy and amber) to get different vibes.


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 28, 2011)

obama64 said:


> *It's up to the grower and their personal preference, and the strain of weed as well. If my stigmas are all still white and the calyxes haven't swelled yet, I don't care what color the trichomes are, it ain't done. *


Well then you obviously arn't trying to achieve the highest levels of THC but more weight and flavor. That's fine, but this thread is not for you so go somewhere else.


----------



## YungMoolaBaby (Jan 28, 2011)

FROM SPRUCEZEUS'S OPINION ON HARVESTING:

Despite popular opinion to the contrary(and don't fool yourself, the jury is still out on this one) Recent studies have shown;contrary to what was previously believed, that THC itself (And its predecessor THC-A) are quite guilty of causing the confusion and drowsiness associated with burnout and other cannabinoids (our friend CBN, and a handful of others) to be the catalyst (along with THC) to being 'high' rather than 'baked'


Regardless, whether or not there is any substance to the aforementioned study, it's easy to get the high you want.


If you want a soaring 'cerebral' high: Get yourself a tropical Sativa that contains a high level of THC-V and grow it until it is ripe. If you want the narcotic couch-lock stone, grow a rugged Indica until it's ripe. Notice a pattern of growing it until it's ripe? It's a really good rule to live by. OF course we have to remember that there is more to a good high than just THC. At last count there are at least 66 cannabinoids, and we don't know what most of them do.

Now a lot of people will tell you that you should harvest based on the color of your trichomes. But (again, in my opinion) that is far too simplistic and there are too many variables to make that an effective strategy. I've made that point a million times before and I'm not going to re-hash it here, (maybe just a bit) but rest assured there is more to the picture than just trichome color.


A ripe marijuana plant will be filled in, will have an amber tinge to the buds. The pistils should have browned (or orange-d) off and receded into the buds. The seed bracts should be swollen and the trichomes should be sticking straight out with bulbous ends. Also, because you're coming close to the end of plant's life cycle, the leaves should have yellowed off and started to die.


----------



## Serapis (Jan 28, 2011)

Alex Kelly said:


> Well then you obviously arn't trying to achieve the highest levels of THC but more weight and flavor. That's fine, but this thread is not for you so go somewhere else.


This thread is for anyone that is a member in good standing of RIU that is capable of pulling up a web browser and typing in a user ID and password.

Only 24 posts in and you are already telling others what to do.... That's says a lot about your future here ....


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 28, 2011)

YungMoolaBaby said:


> FROM SPRUCEZEUS'S OPINION ON HARVESTING:
> 
> Despite popular opinion to the contrary(and don't fool yourself, the jury is still out on this one) Recent studies have shown;contrary to what was previously believed, that THC itself (And its predecessor THC-A) are quite guilty of causing the confusion and drowsiness associated with burnout and other cannabinoids (our friend CBN, and a handful of others) to be the catalyst (along with THC) to being 'high' rather than 'baked'
> 
> ...


A reference or where you got this info from would be nice. For now I'm going to have to go with the previous scientific articles posted that had some real credit.


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 28, 2011)

Serapis said:


> This thread is for anyone that is a member in good standing of RIU that is capable of pulling up a web browser and typing in a user ID and password.
> 
> Only 24 posts in and you are already telling others what to do.... That's says a lot about your future here ....


That guy just told all of us when our plants will be ready and that all of the science posted in this thread is wrong with no evidence or anything to back it up whatsoever. 
LMAO "here" is an online marijuana cultivation forum that I use strictly for research (obv we are different in this way), I don't give a fuck about my future here....


----------



## Alex Kelly (Jan 28, 2011)

Not to mention that my comment didnt attack him or anything posts like that are just annoying.


----------



## clitlover (Jan 28, 2011)

Great debate, lets just maybe try something different for our next grow and choose for ourselves, lets just have proper etiquette while addressing are differences. time to cure the confusion.


----------



## budalushious (Jan 29, 2011)

This was a great thread..................


----------



## flysomething (Jan 29, 2011)

Fantastic thread! I've looked up a couple other papers by Dr. Mahlberg and its fascinating. After reading through two weeks of academia research papers about soybeans and polymers, its that man that makes me love this shit again.


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 29, 2011)

Wow thanks for doing the reading, as that is what I didn't have time for! +rep


----------



## dirk d (Feb 4, 2011)

one thing i noticed is whenever i see pics of bud the trich's are not amber they are all clear to slightly milky.


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Feb 4, 2011)

could be the flash on the camera


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 4, 2011)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> New High Times has an article that says Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg has done a study proving that trichromes are most potent when clear-not milky and certainly not amber. Can anyone find this study without spending 3 days reading everything the guy ever wrote?


That is not really new news. Old time growers have known that for decades. Here is how the amber belief came to be.

At one time in many part of the world, the U.S. in particular, pure sativa strains were all there was to be found commercially and in that era if you grew you grew from the seeds you found in what you purchased. Indica's began to become more widespread and some people preferred the couch-lock stone they provided .. but 'The Dutch Masters' had to keep competing for high THC levels because growers/smokers believed, and many still do, that high THC levels are all important. 

CBD is what causes a true couch-lock stone. For the most part conversion of CBG into CBD is controlled by a single gene (Bd) which is codominant with the gene that converts CBG into THC. For example a plant that inherits a Bd gene from one parent and a Bt gene from the other will have roughly equal content of CBD and THC. However, if the plant is homozygous for Bd it will have very little THCc and if its homozygous for Bt it will have very little CBD

To remain competitive in the THC race the gene to create CBD has been almost totally bred out of modern strains resulting in extremely low percentages of CBD. When THC breaks down, when it oxidizes it becomes CBN, a mildly psychoactive substance that causes a fuzzy head feeling, drowsiness, sleepiness, confusion and disorientation which mainly affects the body. So to get a fake couch-lock body stone growers began to grow their crops beyond levels of peak THC potency, throwing away THC/potency, trading it off for increased levels of CBN trying to find something somewhat like CBD provides and what they actually like. 

Amber in glandular trichomes is a sign of oxidized THC, lost THC, degraded THC that has transformed into CBN and NOT into CBD. 

I have climbed on my soapbox and have preached that sermon for years and years and people always reply claiming that amber equates to increased potency, that you want amber trichomes, some say 50/50 cloudy/amber and some say a higher percentage of amber is what is best. Seldom have ever believed me that peak potency in most modern crosses is reached when most glandular trichomes are cloudy/milky. You want to see about 5% to 10% amber and that is all. That is when the rest of the trichomes should be at or very close to maximum potency. If you harvest much earlier you risk having mainly precursor elements and you will get high but it will be short lived. 

Where the cloudy/milky thing is not totally accurate is when someone is growing a pure sativa or a cross that is almost pure sativa, as in 90% or more sativa. In pure and almost pure sativas they reach maximum potency when the glandular trichomes are still clear. In those cases you would wait until you see roughly 5% to 10% cloudy/milky trichomes and that is a sign that the rest should be at or very close to maximum potency. 

CANNABIGEROL (CBG)








CBG is a precursor of higher cannabinoids such as CBC, CBD, THC and there are very small amounts of it in drug strains although it occurs in greater concentrations in hemp. It's a non-psychoactive cannabinoid but it is known for lowering blood pressure and it is also useful for treating mood disorders.



CANNABICHROMENE (CBC)







CBC is nonpsychoactive and it is used as an "energy-storage" compound which is readily converted back to CBG if needed. Some evidence show that CBC may play a role in providing the anti-inflammatory effects of cannabis and that it may also contribute to the overall analgesic or pain killing properties, but further research is needed to verify these assumptions.



CANNABIDIOL (CBD)









CBD is generally considered to have more medicinal properties than THC. It appears to relieve convulsion, inflammation (and thereby also migraines), anxiety and nausea. That is why strains with a high concentration of CBD is suitable for medicinal use.

Although CBD has its own particular medicinal value it is not more important than THC when it comes to treating various afflictions. It is the interaction between the two that gives rise to the effect that sometimes alleviates the symptoms of various medical conditions. 

CBD has a greater affinity for the CB2 receptor than for the CB1 receptor, meaning that its effect is mostly in the body and not so much in the head. CBD shares a precursor with THC and is the main cannabinoid in low-THC cannabis strains.

Landrace strains, usually of indica heritage, contain higher concentrations of CBD than recreational drug strains, which are usually bred towards a higher concentration of THC. This is the reason why strains containing high ratios of CBD can be difficult to find.



TETRAHYDROCANNABINOL (THC)









Tetrahydrocannabinol, also known as delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (&#916;9-THC), is the primary psychoactive component found in the cannabis plant. It was first isolated by Raphael Mechoulam, Yechiel Gaoni, and Habib Edery from the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot, Israel, in 1964.








This is the main compound that gives rise to the high that is tightly linked with the cannabis plant. It affects several areas of the brain simultaneously and can therefore give rise to an assortment of experiences, ranging from altered perception of time and the self, to feelings of euphoria and relaxation all through the body.


Medically, it appears to be analgetic, meaning that it is capable of alleviating even severe pain. It is also known to be neuroprotective, which rules out the possibility of brain damage, which was initially proposed to follow from heavy use of the plant. It has approximately equal affinity for the CB1 and CB2 receptors. By binding to CB1 receptors (the ones in brain) it produces the high that we are so familiar with. That is why the effects of THC is more cerebral, than the effect of CBD, which seems to have a greater affinity for the CB2 receptor.





TETRAHYDROCANNABIVARIN (THCV)









THCV is the propyl homologue of THC and is similar in structure. The propyl cannabinoids have so far been found in some varieties originating from Southeast and Central parts of Asia as well as Africa, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Nepal. What are considered some of the most potent marijuana varieties also contain propyl cannabinoids. Some examples include traditional African landrace sativas as well as pure Thai varieties and various hybrids known as Haze.



CANNABINOL (CBN)








*Cannabinol is the primary degradation product of THC and increases in concentration with plant age. The concentration of this product in the bud is heavily dependent on the time of harvest. Harvesting the bud at a late stage also means that the concentration of CBN in relation to THC will be higher when compared to the peak of THC production*.

*CBN content increases as THC degradesr. It is only mildly psychoactive and can cause "fuzzy head", drowsiness, disorientation and sleepiness in the smoker, properties that can be considered unpleasant in nature compared to the clear high of the THC. Its affinity to the CB2 receptors is higher than for the CB1 receptor, meaning that it mostly affects the body.* 


THC BIOSYNTHESIS








In order to fully understand and appreciate the most important cannabinoids, we first have to take a look at how they are produced inside the plant from lesser, precursor compounds.


By looking at this picture we get a better view of the metabolic pathway that leads to the desired psychoactive product called THC.


The metabolic chain that leads to THC starts when geranyl pyrophosphate combines with olivetolic acid, in order to create cannabigerolic acid (CBGA). This carboxylic acid is the shared precursor of all the three major cannabinoids that can be found in the plant; THC, CBD and CBC. 

The cannabigerolic acid then forms into the carboxylic acid precursor of each of the named compounds. Cannabichromenic acid (CBCA) turns into the nonpsychoactive compound CBC. Cannabidiolic acid (CBDA) turns into the therapeutic cannabinoid CBD and finally tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA) turns into the much sought after and highly psychoactive cannabinoid THC or tetrahydrocannabinol. 

The carboxylic acids are characterized by the presence of the carboxyl group (-COOH). The carboxyl group splits off from the acid compounds through a process called decarboxylation, giving rise to CO2 in the process. This happens with age (curing) or when they are heated (smoked), effectively turning them into the final products. The curing process that the buds go through inside the jars, can actually be considered a slow decarboxylation process, so the result is the same. This however means that the plant can contain both the carboxylic acid form of THC as well as the finished product. More or less, depending on when it is measured. *THC later oxidizes and is reduced into CBN further down the chain. * 

*The capitate-stalked glandular trichome changes color as it matures.* Newly formed and immature glands are clear, *glands reaching optimum THC production are cloudy or milky and amber trichomes have already passed their peak.* By looking at the trichomes you can also determine the best time to harvest your plants. *When most trichomes have gone cloudy and a few amber ones have appeared, the plant is at its peak. *








Us old timers have known that doe ages and ages but the puppies never accepted it and most refuse to believe it. But it is true. What the Beavis and Butthead stoner puppies never knew and never understood and refused to accept is what they want, according to their preference of a couch-lock body stone, is strains that are high in CBD but it is impossible to have high levels of both THC and CBD but Beavis and Butthead just had to have those high THC strains .. resulting in them picking strains that were not the best for their preference in a couch-lock body stone. To attempt to get a couch-lock body stone they attempted to play pot alchemist and transforming one element, THC, into something it cannot ever become, that being CBD, and ended up with CBN instead and believed they had turned lead into gold by growing their plants too long, growing them beyond peak potency and allowing THC levels to drop as THC oxidized into the CBN they mistook for being CBD. 

And to make it more difficult for the Beavis and Butthead stoners to get what they wanted 'The Dutch Master's in their never ending insane quest to create 'The Holy Grail' bred almost totally bred CBD out of modern strains. 



> Juiced Marijuana Offered to Medical Users as Alternative to Smoking
> June 15, 2010
> 
> A California physician is offering his medical-marijuana patients a liquefied version of the drug that he says won't produce much of a buzz but does contain chemicals helpful in treating a variety of illnesses, the Washington Post reported June 1.
> ...


----------



## gumball (Feb 4, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> That is not really new news. Old time growers have known that for decades. Here is how the amber belief came to be....


very good post, informative, thank you  i will definitely watch my plants more closely based off of this, and will begin partial harvests at 100% cloudy/milky


----------



## Total Head (Feb 4, 2011)

no one has really touched on the fact that a pollinated plant will take longer to mature regardless of what the hairs or trichs are doing. right now i have a couple chiesel that i am dying to chop but they just don't look done. most of the hairs are all brown and it's not packing on the weight the way i would like, but the trichs are about 10% amber. if i can see the hairs sticking out and they haven't receeded into the bud it's just not done to me. the catch 22 is that if i let this (lightly) pollinated plant fully "mature" the way i want it to it will essentially be overripe. very annoying. in the pic you can see all the brown hairs (ignore all the necrosis lol. she's a trooper) but to me the plant is not done. it's actually throwing out more fucking pistils.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 4, 2011)

YungMoolaBaby said:


> A ripe marijuana plant will be filled in, will have an amber tinge to the buds. *The pistils should have browned (or orange-d) off and receded into the buds.* The seed bracts should be swollen and the trichomes should be sticking straight out with bulbous ends. Also, because you're coming close to the end of plant's life cycle, the leaves should have yellowed off and started to die.



Not every strain will have pistils that have turned orange or red or brown and receding when fully ripe. Sagarmatha's Matanuska Tundra is one of the strains where it is normal for most to all pistils to still be white and standing up/out when the plant is fully ripe. It is one of the strains that has proven that pistil color is not a truly accurate way to a judge ripeness as it is believed by most to be.


----------



## RawBudzski (Feb 4, 2011)

I personally only Smoke Indica, and the MORE LAZY I AM AFTER.. the More I Like it. Amber FTW.


----------



## RawBudzski (Feb 4, 2011)

MY CURRENT strain Aurora Indicas Pistils are normally 70% white when Done.


----------



## gumball (Feb 4, 2011)

Total Head said:


> no one has really touched on the fact that a pollinated plant will take longer to mature regardless of what the hairs or trichs are doing. right now i have a couple chiesel that i am dying to chop but they just don't look done. most of the hairs are all brown and it's not packing on the weight the way i would like, but the trichs are about 10% amber. if i can see the hairs sticking out and they haven't receeded into the bud it's just not done to me. the catch 22 is that if i let this (lightly) pollinated plant fully "mature" the way i want it to it will essentially be overripe. very annoying. in the pic you can see all the brown hairs (ignore all the necrosis lol. she's a trooper) but to me the plant is not done. it's actually throwing out more fucking pistils.


This iis a situation where I would recommend partial harvest. Take the buds which look most ripe "to you" and let the others go a touch longer. You will at least have some variety


----------



## kbo ca (Feb 4, 2011)

instead of posting on here when to harvest, find out for yourself. Harvest one of your plants with clear trichs one with milky and one with amber and you be the judge. don't take "K's" word for it. even if he does have a bad ass trimmer, or grow room.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 4, 2011)

kbo ca said:


> instead of posting on here when to harvest, find out for yourself. Harvest one of your plants with clear trichs one with milky and one with amber and you be the judge. don't take "K's" word for it. even if he does have a bad ass trimmer, or grow room.


The point of the High Times article and what I have said, for years, is about harvesting at peak levels of THC. What you are suggesting is of course fine but it is instead about personal preference which if it happens to come with amber trichomes equates to having grown past peak levels of THC. 

Basically there is a difference between your suggestion and the point of the thread. One is about peak levels of THC and the other what someone might prefer even though it could come at the cost of decreased potency. 

As is said, to each their own, but what is preferable to each does not equate to maximum levels of THC just because when they harvest gives them their preference. Personal preference does not decide when peak levels of THC are reached, only timing does that and it comes earlier than very many people believe or will accept. 

It also does not address the fact that people grow until amber trichomes attempting to get something that is not actually achievable that way, which is increased levels of CBD when instead they end up with decreased levels of THC and increased levels of CBN. If that is preferable to someone, then that is what they should do, but they should know they are not actually achieving what they believe they are achieving. They are not ending up with increased levels of THC, and instead just the opposite, and they are not getting the true couch-lock body stone of CBD and instead getting a fake couch-lock, and all that goes with it, due to increased levels of CBN.


----------



## gumball (Feb 4, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> The point of the High Times article and what I have said, for years, is about harvesting at peak levels of THC. What you are suggesting is of course fine but it is instead about personal preference which if it happens to come with amber trichomes equates to having grown past peak levels of THC.
> 
> Basically there is a difference between your suggestion and the point of the thread. One is about peak levels of THC and the other what someone might prefer even though it could come at the cost of decreased potency.
> 
> ...


and the way you explained it earlier, that Amber harvest sounds like the one which will give a high that brings on anxiety and just not a great high feeling. would you agree to that at all?

Would you have any high CBD strains you would recommend?


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 4, 2011)

gumball said:


> and the way you explained it earlier, that Amber harvest sounds like the one which will give a high that brings on anxiety and just not a great high feeling. would you agree to that at all?
> 
> Would you have any high CBD strains you would recommend?



Normally anxiety has been blamed on a racy sativa but over the years I have from time to time read messages from people who said they went to heavy indicas and amber trichomes believing they would relax them more and had major anxiety so I suppose in at least some percentage of smokers that could be the cause for anxiety. 

I am not much of a couch-lock lover so I do not really keep track of strains that do have more CBD in them but other than a few that have only fairly recently been created there are very few strains to be found that are as high as 2% to 2.5% and most are under 1%. 

Here are a few newer strains that are high to VERY high in CBD, but because of it very low in THC. I have no idea where they can be found and for something with a fairly high percentage of THC but still a decent amount of CBD, I do not know what to suggest. 'The Dutch Masters' have pretty much bred almost all of the CBD out of everything they have made. 


*The Blue-Ribbon Plant*
The plant richest in CBD is a &#8220;True Blueberry/OG Kush&#8221; cross grown in the mountains south of Yreka by Wendell Lee of Full Spectrum Genetics (not to be confused with the lab in Colorado). Dried buds of TB/OGK have been sent for testing on four occasions by Harborside, the dispensary with which Lee is associated. Samples were consistently found to contain about 10% CBD (with THC levels around 6 to 7%). On the only occasion that a crop grown outdoors by Lee was tested by Steep Hill lab, it was found to contain 13.9% CBD.
Two other labs have confirmed the CBD content of Lee&#8217;s TB/OGK.
Lee is now working to &#8220;stabilize the genetics&#8221; and produce TB/OGK seeds. Several plants he provided to Project CBD (a nonprofit organized by writer/activist Martin Lee to promote research) are being grown out by experienced hands. Processed medicine and clones will be available at dispensaries in the months ahead. Details will be available on ProjectCBD.com, a website that will be launched by mid-August, according to Martin Lee (no relation to Wendell)
The California strain richest in CBD proportionally, &#8220;Women&#8217;s Collective Stinky Purple,&#8221; tested at 9.7% CBD and 1.2% THC. It was brought to Harborside by Grower #1 who also grows a strain called &#8220;Cotton Candy/Diesel&#8221; that was found to contain about 6% CBD and 6% THC. Grower #1 gets her starter plants from friends in Northeastern Mendocino County. Is there something in the genome of plants that have been swapped over the years by growers in those hills that encourages expression of CBD?
Another strain containing more than 8% CBD, grown indoors in the East Bay, was brought to Harborside in late April. &#8220;Omrita Rx3&#8221; is the name the grower has given it after learning that it was of special interest to SCC doctors.
A few weeks later a strain called &#8220;Harlequin&#8221; was found to contain about 8% CBD. And soon thereafter a pound of &#8220;Jamaican Lion&#8221; tested at 8.9% CBD. Clones of these strains are being grown out and will be available through Harborside and Project CBD in the months ahead, along with the Soma A+ that was first to be identified.
Pineapple Thai (5% CBD, 2.4% THC) is being grown out by Herbal Solutions in Long Beach.


----------



## gumball (Feb 4, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> Normally anxiety has been blamed on a racy sativa but over the years I have from time to time read messages from people who said they went to heavy indicas and amber trichomes believing they would relax them more and had major anxiety so I suppose in at least some percentage of smokers that could be the cause for anxiety.
> 
> I am not much of a couch-lock lover so I do not really keep track of strains that do have more CBD in them but other than a few that have only fairly recently been created there are very few strains to be found that are as high as 2% to 2.5% and most are under 1%.
> 
> ...


I understand not liking the couch lock feeling very much. I rather enjoy the motivation and focus I can achieve through smoking. But there are times when I rather like feeling nothing  thank you for your contribution


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 5, 2011)

gumball said:


> But there are times when I rather like feeling nothing  thank you for your contribution



I can understand that. It is not like I never smoke an indica or never enjoy being zoned out, it is just rare for me. A number of years back I would grow Slyder and or Mangolian Indica from Sagarmatha Seeds now and then and enjoyed them, and Medicine Man (the original White Rhino) and White Russian are ones I will still grow now and then, and there have been and still are few others .. but when I grow one it tends to last me a very long time because I don't go to those jars very often and when I do it is usually a late evening thing when fairly soon I will be in bed snoring and farting.


----------



## solarguy (Feb 5, 2011)

View attachment 1424788

i harvest early sometimes i would say 75% clear 25% milky, i see a much more energetic high... IMO you sacrifice density in some cases tho...

i have harvested a burnt plant early and saw no milky trichs yet i got stoned as shit...energetic tho couldnt fall asleep to save my life.


----------



## kbo ca (Feb 6, 2011)

You should grow it out how you like it man. if your weed comes out how you personally prefer it, who gives a fuck if its not at peak thc. especially if you like it better at a different stage.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 6, 2011)

solarguy said:


> i harvest early sometimes i would say 75% clear 25% milky, i see a much more energetic high... IMO you sacrifice density in some cases tho...
> 
> i have harvested a burnt plant early and saw no milky trichs yet i got stoned as shit...energetic tho couldnt fall asleep to save my life.



It seems that some people in this thread, not saying you, just some people, totally fail to understand the difference between the words "earlier" and "early." 

The subject of the thread is; "*New High Times Suggests Harvesting Earlier."* It said; "earlier," not; "early" and that is what people need to keep in mind, what they need to remember when commenting. "Earlier" only means when plants will be at their peak levels of potency and not in any way meaning harvesting; "early" when the trichomes would not have fully matured and would have at least to a fairly large degree only precursors. "Earlier" is in relation to later, as in after plants have grown too long and there is a fair percentage or more of amber trichomes and the plants have passed their peak level of potency.

Growers always seem to claim they want maximum potency so I fail to understand the resistance of some to harvesting when plants will be their most potent? 

Who here sets out to and then intentionally grows for reduced levels of THC levels, raise your hands. If you are a lover of larger amounts of amber then your hand should be up in the air right now.

Who here attempts to do their best to grow in a way so they will achieve maximum possible levels of THC, raise your hand. If you are a milky/cloudy lover with a very small percentage of amber your hand should be up in the air right now.


----------



## homebrewer (Feb 6, 2011)

I've noticed that my trics even at day 20 can be cloudy, does that mean they're ready to harvest? I think that a plant is ready for harvest when it shows multiple signs of ripeness (swollen calyxes, red/orange/brown pistols, and a _change_ in tric color and structure).


----------



## shell (Feb 6, 2011)

Finally a picture of some amber trichs... does anyone have any more pictures of amber trichs? This is our first harvest and god forbid we pass our prime.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 6, 2011)

homebrewer said:


> I've noticed that my trics even at day 20 can be cloudy, does that mean they're ready to harvest? I think that a plant is ready for harvest when it shows multiple signs of ripeness (swollen calyxes, red/orange/brown pistols, and a _change_ in tric color and structure).



I have never seen trichomes that were cloudy/milky at 20 days of flower .. though I have had them where they were a colorless clear, a clear yellow or a clear amber from day one. In cases like the second two you can only go by clouding and not by color change. 

But if you wait for pistils to change color and recede when would you know to harvest if you grew Matanuska Tundra since it is a strain that has long been known to have all or mostly white pistils still standing up and not receding when it it fully ripe? 

Regardless of what many, or most, believe there is not the true connection between pistil color and condition and ripeness that is claimed. 

It, like the amber trichomes means maximum potency, belief is nothing more than an opinion, a belief that came about through early observations previous to the discovery of trichomes being the most accurate way to determine when plants are prime for harvest and it was repeated enough times that it eventually took on an air of being fact. 

It is the case in some strains, but not in all, so it cannot be relied on in all cases to be a true sign of a mature ripe plant.


----------



## xivex (Feb 6, 2011)

Well said bricktop. Makes sense to me.


----------



## homebrewer (Feb 6, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> I have never seen trichomes that were cloudy/milky at 20 days of flower .. though I have had them where they were a colorless clear, a clear yellow or a clear amber from day one. In cases like the second two you can only go by clouding and not by color change.
> 
> But if you wait for pistils to change color and recede when would you know to harvest if you grew Matanuska Tundra since it is a strain that has long been known to have all or mostly white pistils still standing up and not receding when it it fully ripe?
> 
> ...


 I've grown a lot of strains in my time and pistol color (50-75% red/orange/brown) has _always_ been a good indicator of ripeness, always. Is that the only sign of ripeness? Surely not as you've pointed out the one strain out of thousands whose pistols apparently don't recede. That's why good growers will look at a few indicators like calyx swelling and/or tric color.

This isn't an exact science as in my many years in this hobby, I've found the 'harvest window' to be a good 5-7 days which makes harvesting prematurely or late hard to do for the experienced grower.


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Feb 6, 2011)

So in your experience, have you run into a situation where some plants are showing several signs that they are ready even though they would be weeks early? I have harvested quite a bit I suppose and usually, even though you can't just mark a day on the calendar 8 weeks out and that is harvest day, USUALLY the calendar at least helps. In this case I have Great White Shark from Greenhouse Seeds at day 36. Awful early to look that ready don't you think?


----------



## homebrewer (Feb 6, 2011)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> So in your experience, have you run into a situation where some plants are showing several signs that they are ready even though they would be weeks early? I have harvested quite a bit I suppose and usually, even though you can't just mark a day on the calendar 8 weeks out and that is harvest day, USUALLY the calendar at least helps. In this case I have Great White Shark from Greenhouse Seeds at day 36. Awful early to look that ready don't you think?


First of all, cheers to the healthy looking plants! 

In my experience, I've never run into a situation where my hairs are red and my calyxes are swollen weeks before their expected date. I'm a cloner with more moms than I'd like to admit to so growing these clones over and over and over makes for a 'zero surprise growing experience'. The only time I'll ever have trouble diagnosing an exact date to harvest is when I'm growing a strain for the first time and it's from seed. For some reason, growing from seed presents some maturity issues. I've had indica-dominant seeds with huge fat leaves at day 70 with immature calyxes and not a single red hair. Regardless of tric color, I would never harvest a plant like that. I'd also never keep the clones from it . 

In regards to your pictures above, given the red hairs and mature looking flowers, only at _that_ time would I pull out my tric-scope to see how the trics look. Based on your pics above, and it's hard to diagnose plant maturity from just one or two main buds from the plant, I'd say keep an eye on them because if they were mine, I'd be pulling them down in the next 7-10 days. I'd harvest sooner than that but I've never seen a strain mature in the 30 day range. However, some BOG strains I grew back in the day were easily done at day 45. Again, hard to tell without seeing the whole plant or actually growing it myself. 

Btw, when do you start your 'flowering count'? Some around here count from the day they see pistols, some count from the first day of 12/12.


----------



## Chechero (Feb 6, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> they are not getting the true couch-lock body stone of CBD and instead getting a fake couch-lock, and all that goes with it, due to increased levels of CBN.


Wow, Brick Top I don't like to correct you but you have to stop giving all this unqualified info. CBD has nothing to do with couch-lock it actually induces the exact opposite reaction, one of alertness and wakefulness. 

Proof that CBD enhances alertness and suppresses sleep:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T99-520TJYV-3&_user=10&_coverDate=01/22/2011&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c95f726f42773b694bd9b6c31951b251&searchtype=a

Also see page 237 the chart indicates that THC is actually more couch-lock than CBD: http://mcforadhd.free.fr/Russo_Tale_of_Two_Cannabinoids_Med_Hypoth_2006.pdf 

Certain sesquiterpenoids are responsible for the sedating effects known as couch-lock. 

Fellow Gunjaneer, Chechero


----------



## MomaPug (Feb 6, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> Not every strain will have pistils that have turned orange or red or brown and receding when fully ripe. Sagarmatha's Matanuska Tundra is one of the strains where it is normal for most to all pistils to still be white and standing up/out when the plant is fully ripe. It is one of the strains that has proven that pistil color is not a truly accurate way to a judge ripeness as it is believed by most to be.


So true Brink Top....I grow SMT and if I waited for the pistols to turn from white to orange or brown I would wait forever, they just don't.


----------



## Chechero (Feb 6, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> Normally anxiety has been blamed on a racy sativa but over the years I have from time to time read messages from people who said they went to heavy indicas and amber trichomes believing they would relax them more and had major anxiety so I suppose in at least some percentage of smokers that could be the cause for anxiety.
> 
> I am not much of a couch-lock lover so I do not really keep track of strains that do have more CBD in them but other than a few that have only fairly recently been created there are very few strains to be found that are as high as 2% to 2.5% and most are under 1%.


Again, I have to correct you. THC has been known for some time now to be an anxiogenic (causing anxiety.) It does not matter if it is a sativa or an indica what matters is the THC CBD ratio. CBD is a proven anxiolytic (anxiety reducing.) 

Neural basis of anxiolytic effects of cannabidiol: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20829306

Method of Action of CBD in Anxiety page 567:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZNIorLciZCoC&pg=PA567&lpg=PA567&dq=cbd+for+anxiety&source=bl&ots=tZBbqSoZCC&sig=IOEwOzh6cggZYQCoXy45rz1_uPk&hl=en&ei=H1X4TKPVHIbCsAPyns3TAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cbd for anxiety&f=true 

Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2cAFRAX3Gs

come on now Brick Top I know you know better, people listen to you~


----------



## krok (Feb 6, 2011)

@Chechero:
You say CDB has nothing to do with couch-lock, that is has the opposite reaction (alert/wakeful).
You say THC gives you anxiety (=alert, wakeful).

So what do a couch-lock lover look for, or what in the plant give that effect? If you say CBN, then we are all doomed


----------



## Dee Welch (Feb 6, 2011)

Subscribed.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 7, 2011)

> *Originally Posted by Brick Top  * *Normally anxiety has been blamed on a racy sativa but over the years I have from time to time read messages from people who said they went to heavy indicas and amber trichomes believing they would relax them more and had major anxiety so I suppose in at least some percentage of smokers that could be the cause for anxiety.
> 
> I am not much of a couch-lock lover so I do not really keep track of strains that do have more CBD in them but other than a few that have only fairly recently been created there are very few strains to be found that are as high as 2% to 2.5% and most are under 1%.*






Chechero said:


> Again, I have to correct you. THC has been known for some time now to be an anxiogenic (causing anxiety.) It does not matter if it is a sativa or an indica what matters is the THC CBD ratio. CBD is a proven anxiolytic (anxiety reducing.)
> 
> Neural basis of anxiolytic effects of cannabidiol: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20829306
> 
> ...



You did not correct me on anything. I said how normally anxiety is blamed on racy sativas, which means major THC along with THCV, and that is factual, BUT I have known people who suffer major anxiety from heavy indicas that are not uber-high in THC and do not contain THCV and the cause because of oxidized THC increasing the levels of CBN and CBN causes confusion and disorientation and that can lead to anxiety. It is bound to be a fairly small percentage of people who have that sort of reaction, but I do know that is can and has happened.

If THC were the only cause of anxiety reactions from smoking marijuana then why are there so many medicinal sativa or predominantly strains that treat anxiety, that calm and relax people? 

Here are a few medicinal sativa or sativa dominate strains that are used to treat anxiety and are well known to be calming and relaxing.

*Strain Name:* AK47​ *Type: *Hybrid &#8211; Sativa Dominant



*Strain Name:* Diesel​ *Type: *Hybrid &#8211; Sativa 70% / Indica 30%


*Strain Name:* Chocolope​ *Type:* Hybrid &#8211; 60% Sativa / 40% Indica


*Strain Name:* Bubblegum​ *Type:* Hybrid &#8211; Sativa Dominant
​*Strain Name:* Blue Cheese
*From:* Purple Lotus Patient Center
*Type: *Sativa


*Strain Name:* Sweet Haze
*Type: *Sativa​*Strain Name: *Amnesia
*From:* Purple Lotus Patient Center
*Type:* Sativa &#8211; Cross of Skunk, Cinderella 99, and Jack Herer.


*Strain Name:* Snowcap
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Doyon Bud
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Cinderella 99 (C99)
*Type:* Hybrid &#8211; Sativa Dominant


*Strain Name:* Lamb&#8217;s Breath
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Belladonna
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Ivory Haze
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Super Lemon Haze &#8211; cannabis cup winner 2008/2009
*Grade:* A/A+ Michigan&#8217;s Finest Medical Marijuana &#8216;H. Collective&#8217;
*Type: * Hybrid Sativa/Indica


*Strain Name: * Sweet Tooth 

*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Mr. Nice Guy
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Dairy Queen
*Genetics:* Cheese X Romulan X Cindy 99
*Type: *Hybrid Sativa Dominant


*Strain Name:* Big Cheese
*Type:* Sativa (60% Sativa / 40% Indica)



*Strain Name:* Purple Haze
*Type:* Hybrid mainly Sativa


*Strain Name:* Super Silver Haze
*Type:* Sativa



*Strain Name: *Jacks Cleaner
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Blue Dream
*Type:* Sativa Dominant Hybrid


*Strain Name:* Dream Queen
*Genetics:* Blue Dream x Space Queen
*Type: * Sativa



*Strain Name:* Blueberry AK
*Type:* Sativa


*Strain Name:* Stinky Pete
*Type: *Sativa



*Strain Name:* Casey Jones
*Type:* Hybrid &#8211; 80% Sativa dominate


*Strain Name:* The Wiz
*Type:* Sativa Dominant 80/20


It is not only THC alone but instead the combination of cannabioids, the ratio, the mixture, the amounts each are in that causes whatever type of reaction in each person. If that were not the case the sativas and sativa dominant strains above would not be medicinal strains used to treat anxiety and used for their calming relaxing affects. If what you claimed were totally true they would have the absolute opposite affects. 







​


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 7, 2011)

Chechero said:


> Wow, Brick Top I don't like to correct you but you have to stop giving all this unqualified info. CBD has nothing to do with couch-lock it actually induces the exact opposite reaction, one of alertness and wakefulness.
> 
> 
> Certain sesquiterpenoids are responsible for the sedating effects known as couch-lock.


Again you haven't corrected me. Any cannabinoid separated and tested for it's individual affects will always be different than when tested as they exist in a glandular trichome head, in the ratios, the combinations, the mixtures they are in. Each affect what the other does so some degree or another. Some enhance other affects and some take away from other affects. It is the balance, the combination that makes the final results, not what any singular cannabinoid will do/cause on it's own lacking all the rest it is intended to be combined with.. 

CANNABIDIOL (CBD)









Cannabidiol is nonpsychoactive and was initially thought to have no effect on the psycho activity of THC. Recent evidence however show that smokers of cannabis are less likely to experience schizophrenia-like symptoms if there is a higher CBD to THC ratio. Experiments show that participants experienced less intense psychotic effects when intravenous THC was co-administered with CBD. CBD acts as an allosteric antagonist at the CB1 receptor and thus alters the psychoactive effects of THC, resulting in a more easily manageable high.

CBD is generally considered to have more medicinal properties than THC. It appears to relieve convulsion, inflammation (and thereby also migraines), anxiety and nausea. That is why strains with a high concentration of CBD is suitable for medicinal use.

Although CBD has its own particular medicinal value it is not more important than THC when it comes to treating various afflictions. It is the interaction between the two that gives rise to the effect that sometimes alleviates the symptoms of various medical conditions. 

CBD has a greater affinity for the CB2 receptor than for the CB1 receptor, meaning that its effect is mostly in the body and not so much in the head. CBD shares a precursor with THC and is the main cannabinoid in low-THC cannabis strains.

Landrace strains, usually of indica heritage, contain higher concentrations of CBD than recreational drug strains, which are usually bred towards a higher concentration of THC. This is the reason why strains containing high ratios of CBD can be difficult to find. 





> *Certain sesquiterpenoids are responsible for the sedating effects known as couch-lock. *


That is true, in part, but not they are not only cause, and now you are talking about terpenoids and when you bring terpenoids such as sesquiterpenoids into the discussion, once that happens it opens a whole different can of worms. You are then talking about noncannabinoid-type constituents, an entirely different group of chemical compounds/elements that can be acyclic, monocyclic or polycyclic hydrocarbons with substitution patterns including alcohols, ethers, aldehydes, keytones and esters.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 7, 2011)

MomaPug said:


> So true Brink Top....I grow SMT and if I waited for the pistols to turn from white to orange or brown I would wait forever, they just don't.


No ... they will change color .. but by then you would have grown the plants so far past peak potency that their main value would be for compost.


----------



## fdd2blk (Feb 7, 2011)

blah, i know everything. 

if you don't know if it's ready yet, it's not ready. 


it's a plant, not rocket science. 


is this apple ripe?


----------



## fdd2blk (Feb 7, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> No ... they will change color .. but by then you would have grown the plants so far past peak potency that their main value would be for compost.


so if you let it go to long it won't get you high? 


a hahahhahahahhahahaha

i hope you don't really believe half of what you post.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 7, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> so if you let it go to long it won't get you high?
> 
> 
> a hahahhahahahhahahaha
> ...



I can give an example of where growing plants well past their prime results in a near total lack of a high. 

I had several nights where I had major pains during the night. After the third night the following morning I went to my Doctor's office and within an hour I was in a hospital bed scheduled to have my gallbladder removed the following day. After the operation, when it is not uncommon for someone to be released that day, I was kept for one more day because there was such an infection problem that everything the surgeon touched around my gallbladder bled like mad. I was released the following day around 11:00 AM and was home in about an hour and a half. 

The night before my last painful attack I checked my plants and was going to harvest the following morning. It was one of the rare occasions where I did wait for a bit more amber to be seen than usual. In the short period of time I was gone, three days, the trichomes had turned to a dark brown. After drying and curing all there was, was a very faint high with a totally dead-dull feeling, both short lived, that also caused an upset stomach and a major headache. 

I had grown the strain before from the same batch of beans so I knew it was not a case of bad/weak genetics. The previous grow I harvested them as I usually do and it was high quality. The night I decided to harvest the following morning I quick dried a bud and while naturally harsh it gave a very powerful long lasting high. The only difference between the two grows was the very rapid and major change of trichome progression over three days from about 30% or 40% amber to almost all trichomes being a dark brown, which was a sign that almost all the THC had oxidized and turned into CBN. Why there was such a rapid transformation of trichome color has always baffled me since it was the only time I ever encountered it, but the results of smoking what had obviously grown well past it's prime were nothing I would ever care to experience again.

I tossed it all, it was utterly worthless unless someone wanted a high that was so horrible that it would make the worst brickweed seem like true Panama Red in comparison and if they really enjoy major headaches and like upset stomachs.

Maybe that would be considered too be getting high or getting stoned to you, but it isn't too me. 

If someone grows a plant long enough it will become virtually worthless.


----------



## fdd2blk (Feb 7, 2011)

i have grown my fair share of plants. i have let many a lower bud stay on outdoor plants well into Dec., two months past harvest time. i smoke it and it gets me high. makes excellent hash as well. you can post 400 pages of text and it still doesn't change what i have personally experienced.


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 7, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> i have grown my fair share of plants. i have let many a lower bud stay on outdoor plants well into Dec., two months past harvest time. i smoke it and it gets me high. makes excellent hash as well. you can post 400 pages of text and it still doesn't change what i have personally experienced.



And you can post short two and a half to three line messages stating your claims and it will never alter in any way what I personally experienced.


----------



## Chechero (Feb 7, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> If THC were the only cause of anxiety reactions from smoking marijuana then why are there so many medicinal sativa or predominantly strains that treat anxiety, that calm and relax people?
> 
> Here are a few medicinal sativa or sativa dominate strains that are used to treat anxiety and are well known to be calming and relaxing.
> [/LEFT]


Look I don't want to argue. THC causes anxiety while CBD gets rid of it. This is a well known medical fact supported by clinical studies. Give support to your statements.

THC Causes Anxiety: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17211649
CBD Counters Anxiety: http://www.scribd.com/doc/39376623/crippa-how-does-cbd-counter-anxiety

As a breeder and medical grower I need to know these things.

Making Medicine, Chechero


----------



## fdd2blk (Feb 7, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> And you can post short two and a half to three line messages stating your claims and it will never alter in any way what I personally experienced.


so keep scaring people into harvesting early. you're doing a GREAT job.


----------



## Chechero (Feb 7, 2011)

Hey Krok! Your chart is a little off. THC does not = alert/wakeful. According to Ethan Russo & Geoffrey W. Guy & a study conducted by GW Pharmaceuticals (the creators of Sativex) the University of Washington School of Medicine & the University of Montana Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences titled A tale of two cannabinoids: The therapeutic rationale for combining tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabidiol http://mcforadhd.free.fr/Russo_Tale_of_Two_Cannabinoids_Med_Hypoth_2006.pdf IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ IT PLEASE LOOK AT THE CHART ON PAGE 237 LOOK UNDER CNS EFFECTS AT ANXIOLYTIC ANTIPSYCHOTIC & SEDATION COMPARE THC VS CBD & THE + - READING. These are well funded medical studies. I don't make this stuff up, I just feel the need to know.

As for what gives us that Couch-Lock it is actually a terpenoid named Sesterterpenoid.

Making Medicine, Chechero


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 7, 2011)

> *Originally Posted by Brick Top  * *If THC were the only cause of anxiety reactions from smoking marijuana then why are there so many medicinal sativa or predominantly strains that treat anxiety, that calm and relax people?
> 
> Here are a few medicinal sativa or sativa dominate strains that are used to treat anxiety and are well known to be calming and relaxing.*





Chechero said:


> Look I don't want to argue. THC causes anxiety while CBD gets rid of it. This is a well known medical fact supported by clinical studies. Give support to your statements.


Frankly I am not sure what you are going on about. I said that THC can cause anxiety, but it is not the only cause. I said that it is the combination, the balance, the ratio of the various cannabinoids in conjunction with each other in whatever proportions that are actually responsible. If not than every single strain of marijuana would cause anxiety because it all has THC. 

I used the sativas and predominantly sativa crosses listed above as examples of medicinal strains to treat anxiety and to calm and relax a person, which each and every single one are, that are high THC and low CBD strains but are not anxiety inducing. It is because of the proportions, the ratios, the mixture, the balance of the various cannabinods working together in a way that is not anxiety inducing. "As a breeder and a medical" you should known such things. 

Also as a bit of a side note .. I had never said CBD does not help with anxiety. If you got that from something I wrote you misunderstood me. I said that increased levels of CBN that cause disorientation and confusion can also cause anxiety besides THC causing anxiety. "As a breeder and a medical" you should know such things. 



> THC Causes Anxiety: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17211649


Gee .. an abstract from a government site. How convincing. Where is the full paper, where is all the research, where are the testing procedures explained? 




> CBD Counters Anxiety: http://www.scribd.com/doc/39376623/crippa-how-does-cbd-counter-anxiety


Again, I never said CBD does not counter anxiety and I never said it causes anxiety, what I said is a true body stone comes from CBD, that CBD is where the true relaxing affects of a body stone come from, your own link/information supports what I had said. I also said a true body stone does not from CBN and that in rare cases increased levels of CBN can and will cause anxiety due to confusion and disorientation. Is that really all that difficult for you to understand? 

But I also said that CBD alone is not the only cause for calming and relaxing affects of marijuana, and it is not. It is one cause, but not the only cause. "As a breeder and a medical" you should know such things. 

Just so you can say that you are; "a breeder and a medical" again will you once again attempt to drag terpenoids into this or maybe this time it will be flavonoids or noncannabinoid phenols? 

Just out of curiosity, how many decades have you been; "a breeder," or maybe just how many years you have been; "a breeder," and how many years have you been; "a medical" and what is the definition of; "a medical," you are using, a professional breeder of medicinal marijuana strains, an amateur breeder of medicinal marijuana strains or a medicinal patient that dabbles in breeding strains they hope will have some medicinal value or possibly something else?


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 7, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> so keep scaring people into harvesting early. you're doing a GREAT job.


I certainly do not want to get into a pissing contest with you since I learned from bitter experience that you play with a stacked deck to assure that you win, but as I said in an earlier message there is a difference between the words; "earlier" and "early" and that many people in this thread seem tototally fail to understand the difference and what information goes along with the reasons to harvest; "earlier" rather than later. 

Clearly you are one who does not understand that; "earlier" only means not waiting for more than 5% to 10% amber trichomes to develop, not growing past peak potency, as has for some years now doing so has incorrectly been believed by many to be the best thing to do. 

The title to the thread is*; "New High Times Suggests Harvesting Earlier"* It is not *New High Times Suggests Harvesting **Early.* Do you see the difference between the two? You. and some others, are attempting to redefine the word; "earlier" into meaning; "early" so what I have preached for years and what recent research has proven will not prove that what you, and many others like you, do it actually growing your plants past peak levels or potency. 

If that is what you like to do, to intentionally throw away THC, to intentionally allow it to oxidize and turn into CBN, if that gives you the buzz that you most prefer I am 100% totally cool and the gang with it. I just really dislike it when someone claims something that is nothing more than their personal preference to be better or the best for all. 

I am not telling people when they should harvest. I am telling people that if they want to harvest when peak THC potency has been achieved then they want to harvest when they see between 5% and 10% amber trichomes and the rest are cloudy/milky. If they prefer something different that is their choice, that is there option and it is what they should do. But they should never tell others that doing what they prefer, either harvesting early or waiting for high percentages of amber trichomes to develop, equates to peak levels of THC. 

By all means do with what you grow whatever you prefer but I hate to see you attempt to scare people into growing their plants past the point where peak levels of THC are achieved, if peak levels of THC is what they want, simply because doing so is what you prefer too do.


----------



## fdd2blk (Feb 7, 2011)

i'd rather harvest too late then too early.

everyone else can do whatever they want. 

i have nothing to prove here. 

how's that for "a stacked deck"?


----------



## Hudsonvalley82 (Feb 7, 2011)

Bottom line is that if you are not paying attention to your trichromes then you are probably missing potential.


----------



## abe supercro (Feb 7, 2011)

most distinctions of the effects of cannabis stop with the difference between thc and cbd. now cbd and the possible conversion of some of it, and some of the thc, into CBN should be of concern to all growers and consumers. assuming that CBN results in less of each (or of one) of the desired main properties of cannabis being thc and cbd, then CBN is to be avoided unless it contains some desirable property previously unmentioned.

if amber spheres may be translated as oxidation is beginning to occur resulting in both thc and cbd to be diminished, as well as the negative side-effects from the presence of CBN, then it is my opinion to not go very far into the amber zone. i tend to seek majority cloudy/milky spheres w/ a few clear, as long as the far majority have matured into swollen full spheres. i will mention that cbd is not the focus on precisely when i cut, thc has generally been more of a priority w/ this method.


----------



## gumball (Feb 7, 2011)

sounds like the plant is rusting, ha, im high


----------



## Chechero (Feb 7, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> Gee .. an abstract from a government site. How convincing. Where is the full paper, where is all the research, where are the testing procedures explained?


I hate having to spoon feed you Brick Top. When you argue with Pubmed and research published there by the Department of Pharmacology and Cancer Biology of Duke University Medical Center my credentials are unlikely to impress, although I can tell you that you have heard of me & have likely also used one of my strains at some point in your life. The findings of the study were very clear:

"In the EPM and light-dark tasks, THC was anxiogenic in both age groups"

However, seeing as your unqualified statements hold more weight than the Department of Pharmacology and Cancer Biology of Duke University Medical Center and you would like to replicate the experiment in your lab the complete study can be purchased @: http://www.springerlink.com/content/u0330457786022t4/
You really are a Brick Top. I liked you better when you just accepted my amendments to your statements. I suppose we can still be friends~ LOL


----------



## Chechero (Feb 7, 2011)

abe supercro said:


> Assuming that CBN results in less of each (or of one) of the desired main properties of cannabis being thc and cbd, then CBN is to be avoided unless it contains some desirable property previously unmentioned.


True. Very true. CBN actually attenuates the effects of THC. 
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T1J-475THFW-N1&_user=10&_coverDate=06/17/1986&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1633678326&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e58bbeada6e9fcbef6253244686b6e7e&searchtype=a



abe supercro said:


> I will mention that cbd is not the focus on precisely when i cut, thc has generally been more of a priority w/ this method.


 Again true. CBD is not determined by any growing meathod or technique including when one harvests. It is almost entirely determined by the genetics of the strain.


----------



## krok (Feb 7, 2011)

Chechero said:


> Hey Krok! Your chart is a little off. THC does not = alert/wakeful. According to Ethan Russo & Geoffrey W. Guy & a study conducted by GW Pharmaceuticals (the creators of Sativex) the University of Washington School of Medicine & the University of Montana Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences titled A tale of two cannabinoids: The therapeutic rationale for combining tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabidiol http://mcforadhd.free.fr/Russo_Tale_of_Two_Cannabinoids_Med_Hypoth_2006.pdf IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ IT PLEASE LOOK AT THE CHART ON PAGE 237 LOOK UNDER CNS EFFECTS AT ANXIOLYTIC ANTIPSYCHOTIC & SEDATION COMPARE THC VS CBD & THE + - READING. These are well funded medical studies. I don't make this stuff up, I just feel the need to know.
> 
> As for what gives us that Couch-Lock it is actually a terpenoid named Sesterterpenoid.
> 
> Making Medicine, Chechero


You're so much fun!

edit: removed angry rant


----------



## krok (Feb 7, 2011)

I'll just say what to avoid if you want couchlock high: 50% amber at harvest, then a 2 month cure.
If you do this, you'll be in CBN-hell - it's terrible. I made BHO out of it.


----------



## gumball (Feb 8, 2011)

I would just like to make the simple suggestion, without the science to back me up. Riddleme says it best, read your plants. If part of it looks ready, snip it and try it somehow. read all the signs, including the most important ones, whichever they may be to each individual grower. We (not me I dont have the intelligence in this regard) could scientifically debate this all day long. But remember your going over everyones head, or at least 70% of us. And on top of that, a lot of the newer growers want you to tell them what to do with their plants. I literally had a grower tell me that, that he needed me to tell him what to do with his plants, uh chop'em and send them here 

No disrespect to any of the debating sides it has been a little comical and educational. But you can only lead the grower to information, you cannot make them read it...

PS, some may like the effects of CBN, we are all different individuals.


----------



## done (Feb 8, 2011)

I read another artical in Skunk mag., called ripening, Dutch medical firm (which produces cannabis for pharmacies in netherlands) harvests at the start of ripening cycle (indica will have a higher % of thc at start ripening cycle, thrich.s opaque) maintaining 19% THC. Also sayes for most of us this would be to early..


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 10, 2011)

Chechero said:


> I hate having to spoon feed you Brick Top. When you argue with Pubmed and research published there by the Department of Pharmacology and Cancer Biology of Duke University Medical Center my credentials are unlikely to impress, although I can tell you that you have heard of me & have likely also used one of my strains at some point in your life.


Duke is just up the road from me a bit ... roughly an hour ... my ex-neighbor used to do DNA research there .... not that either of those things really matter. 

Possibly I have heard of you or even tried one or more of your strains before, but why the mystery man thing? If you are someone I have heard of and respect the work of why not say who you are? After all, anyone can claim to actually be someone others likely have heard of. Are you worried that if you reveal who you are that you will have a herd of RIU groupies sending hundreds of friends requests so they can say they are an online friend of someone they might see as being something of a rock star of cannabis. Or are you more concerned that people will scratch their heads and say .. ehhhh .. never head of the person and don't know anything about their strains? 





> "In the EPM and light-dark tasks, THC was anxiogenic in both age groups"


You still seem to be attempting to argue, no, I will just call it discuss, something that I made clear that we both agreed on. I have said THC will cause anxiety in some people. But what I also said is it is less the THC in cannabis than the combination of cannabinoids that causes anxiety since some work to enhance others and others will diminish the affects of others and when in different ratios/balances/combinations or however you prefer it anxiety will or will not occur. 

Now if you are saying that THC and THC along, totally separate from all other cannabinoids and ternenoids and other elements found in glandular trichome heads is given to someone, smoke, ingested or whatever then anxiety will be the reaction, that would be a horse of a different color, but also one that would not fit into a discussion like this in that no one will grow a crop resulting in only THC being found and all other chemical substances would be lacking. 

If you are talking about THC and THC alone, and had made that clear I would have just agreed with you and left it at that. But that was not and is not what I am talking about and if it is what you are talking about you are talking about a different subject than I am. 

I also added that in what might be a small percentage of people the confusion and disorientation caused by increased levels of CBN will also cause anxiety. I am sure it is for different reasons but it is still anxiety nonetheless. 





> However, seeing as your unqualified statements hold more weight than the Department of Pharmacology and Cancer Biology of Duke University Medical Center and you would like to replicate the experiment in your lab the complete study can be purchased @: http://www.springerlink.com/content/u0330457786022t4/



Clearly you purchased it if you know it so why not be a pal and share it with us all and in doing so prove your point beyond any shadow of a doubt? That is unless like many you only rely on an abstract and then fill in the volumes of missing information with what you believe too be true. 




> You really are a Brick Top. I liked you better when you just accepted my amendments to your statements. I suppose we can still be friends~ LOL


I never suspected that you had any cause or reason to like me in the first place so I am amazed that you said you; "suppose we can still be friends." Gee that is so very sweet of you .. Will You Be My Valentine? 

As for friends, I am not here to make friends but as gruff as I might come across I really do not hate anyone, not here anyway ... but maybe the pucchiaca who lives across the street from me. 

I just had a thought ... which is bound too be absurd .... but I do tend to search for clues and use a little deductive reasoning at times and something you said made me wonder if it was a clue, either intended or unintended. It was where you said; "I suppose we can still be friends." Now being friends is not the same as love but it makes me almost have to wonder if you have a potion for such, possibly even as many as three of them. If so and if this were the old TV show What's My Line ... I would win.


----------



## Shankapotomus (Feb 22, 2011)

Good thread here and interesting read.
From what I have read so far I am coming to the
conclusion that it is a matter of taste.
Let's face it, now more than ever with the decriminalization and wide
acceptance of Marijuana we are just starting to find our preferences for this drug.
I think we still have some exploring to do.
With all the current and developing strains, I still think there is some refining to do.
Just like the different alcohols out there, we need to find what we like the best
out of each individual strain.
Not everyone likes the same. Bud or Coors? Single malt or Double.
I think here lies the key to the harvest time.
Some prefer taste, the stone, the pain relief or a number of other effects which can
be had from the different strains and harvest times.
I know this thread is about trich harvest time and peak THC levels, however
I think as time goes on, everyone will not concentrate on how to produce
the "Everclear"of Cannibis, rather the different affects desired or taste
like a fine wine and not concentrate on the alcohol content or in this case
THC.
 
.
​


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 23, 2011)

abe supercro said:


> most distinctions of the effects of cannabis stop with the difference between thc and cbd. now cbd and the possible conversion of some of it, and some of the thc, into CBN should be of concern to all growers and consumers. assuming that CBN results in less of each (or of one) of the desired main properties of cannabis being thc and cbd, then CBN is to be avoided unless it contains some desirable property previously unmentioned.
> 
> if amber spheres may be translated as oxidation is beginning to occur resulting in both thc and cbd to be diminished, as well as the negative side-effects from the presence of CBN, then it is my opinion to not go very far into the amber zone. i tend to seek majority cloudy/milky spheres w/ a few clear, as long as the far majority have matured into swollen full spheres. i will mention that cbd is not the focus on precisely when i cut, thc has generally been more of a priority w/ this method.



THC BIOSYNTHESIS


----------



## Brick Top (Feb 23, 2011)

Shankapotomus said:


> Good thread here and interesting read.
> From what I have read so far I am coming to the
> conclusion that it is a matter of taste.
> Let's face it, now more than ever with the decriminalization and wide
> ...



Actually the point is to make better, proper, strain selections that will genetically give you what you want, like or need the most when harvesting at peak levels of THC rather than do like so very many people do, make very poor strain selections, and then attempt to alter them, attempting to turn them into what they genetically are not but what they would like them to be by harvesting late when the plants have passed their peak level of potency.


----------



## r1tony (Feb 23, 2011)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> Here is the same plant from above after 4 days of hang dry, on it's way to jars. It's White Berry from Paradise seeds. I need a better camera or something cause theese pictures don't do it justice!
> View attachment 1404080View attachment 1404081View attachment 1404089View attachment 1404083View attachment 1404086


lol slayer lighter.. epic fail man. lol


----------



## Alex Kelly (Mar 6, 2011)

homebrewer said:


> I've noticed that my trics even at day 20 can be cloudy, does that mean they're ready to harvest? I think that a plant is ready for harvest when it shows multiple signs of ripeness (swollen calyxes, red/orange/brown pistols, and a _change_ in tric color and structure).


Hope that's not a serious question. Unneccessary and not helpful.


----------



## Fatty R Buckle (Mar 6, 2011)

I've got a couple different strains that you can roll them over a hundred days and no brown/ amber only milky.. I think its knowing your strains..


----------



## cannabisguru (Mar 7, 2011)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> New High Times has an article that says Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg has done a study proving that trichromes are most potent when clear-not milky and certainly not amber. Can anyone find this study without spending 3 days reading everything the guy ever wrote?



This is total bullshit and I would LOVE an email addy for this "Doctor".

Science is science.. facts are facts and the fact is.. when it comes to cannabis, THC is store inside the trichs (the bulbulous ones; the ones with the glass globe head). If the trich is clear (transparent).. that's a CLEAR indicator that the plant has not matured enough to fill the trichs with any resin/thc. 

Now, to further prove my point.. what part of the plant is responsible for getting the smoker stoned? Answer: The trichs are.. period.

Why do you think people like to sift kief? All kief is.. is trichs. Pure THC pretty much.. without the plant material.


So again, where this so called "doctor" got his PHD.. is a mystery.. and I still would just LOVE to be able to debate this with him personally.. face to face.

Ugghh.. I mean, that's just common freaking sense man.

He clearly has no idea what he's talking about..

peace..


----------



## GreatwhiteNorth (Mar 7, 2011)

cannabisguru said:


> This is total bullshit and I would LOVE an email addy for this "Doctor".
> 
> Science is science.. facts are facts and the fact is.. when it comes to cannabis, THC is store inside the trichs (the bulbulous ones; the ones with the glass globe head). If the trich is clear (transparent).. that's a CLEAR indicator that the plant has not matured enough to fill the trichs with any resin/thc.
> 
> ...


Well, here you go - this answers a couple of your questions.
Judging by his credentials he may know a bit about these things.
I'm not on either side of the fence on this one - just providing info.
GWN
*NAIHC - North American Industrial Hemp Council*
A Renewable Industrial Fiber & Oil Crop

*Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg's Cannabis Research*
NAIHC Board Member Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg is a Professor of Biology (plant biology) and Senior Fellow of the Institute of Molecular and Cellular Biology, Indiana University. He received his Ph.D. in Botany at the University of California, Berkeley and his MS and BS degrees in Botany at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. He has studied cannabis for over thirty years and has published over thirty articles on cannabis (Cannabis sativa), a tall annual dioecious plant group which includes both industrial hemp and marijuana. Wrote Laboratory Program in Plant Anatomy, and published two educational films. Served as a consulting editor to Academic Press in the preparation of ten monographs. Collaborated with Dr. Ivan Bocsa, Kompolt, Hungary, in a three-year USDA sponsored research study on hemp, and with Dr. Eun Soo Kim, Seoul, Korea, on organization and composition of glandular trichomes in cannabis and related plants. Served as a consultant to the United Nations Industrial Organization, Vienna, on industrial processing of raw opiates; to the University of Mississippi, School of Pharmacy, in its cannabis program; and to private companies in studies on secondary products of plants. Member of the board of directors of the Door County (Wisconsin) Land Trust which is dedicated to preservation of ecologically important land. 

One of only two federal DEA permits to grow cannabis in the United States is held by Dr. Mahlberg. His research program began over thirty years ago and continues to the present, specializing in the ultra structure of the resin-producing gland and the biogenesis of its cannabinoids. With his post-doctoral fellows and graduate students, he has explored these and other topics important to the definition of cannabis as either a drug or a fiber and food plant. 

Dr. Mahlberg's most recent cannabis article, co-authored with his student Dr. Karl Hillig, is "A Chemotaxonomic Analysis of Cannabinoid Variation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)." It was published in American Journal of Botany 91:966-975, 2004. A list of Dr. Mahlberg's technical reports on cannabis appears below, with Internet links where available. His studies were directed to analyses of various cannabinoids and related secretory products, and their subcellular localization during plant development. 

As a teenager, Paul Mahlberg's decision to become a botanist was stimulated by summers at Door County's Kangaroo Lake in Wisconsin. Now retired from the biology faculty at Indiana University in Bloomington, he continues to do research on secretion by plant cells - and he has maintained his long-time connection with Door County. The latest example of this connection is that Dr. Mahlberg and his wife Marilyn Waite Mahlberg have co-authored Wildflowers of Door County, Wisconsin's Unique Floral Preserve, "A field guide to the wildflowers that can be found in one of the most unique and beautiful places in America."

------------------------------------------------

*Cannabaceae Publications of Paul G. Mahlberg*

39. Hillig, K. W., and P. G. Mahlberg. 2004. Chemotaxonomic analysis of cannabinoid variation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Amer. Jour. Bot. 91: 966-975. Link to Abstract, full text available for a subscription fee. 

38. Mahlberg, P. G., and E. S. Kim. 2003. Accumulation of cannabinoids in the secretory cavity of Cannabis. Jour. Industr. Hemp 9: 15-36.

37. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 2003. Secretory vesicle formation in the secretory cavity of glandular trichomes of Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Mol. Cells 15: 387-395. Link to Abstract which includes link to free full text.

36. Mahlberg, P. G. 2003. Reintroduction of industrial hemp into American agriculture. Wisconsin Flora 4:3-6.

35. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 2000. Early development of the secretory cavity of peltate glands in Humulus lupulus L. (Cannabaceae). Mol. Cells 10:487-492.

34. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1999. Immunochemical localization of tetrahydro cannabinol (THC) in chemically fixed glandular trichomes of Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Jour. Biol. Sci. 3: 215-219.

33. Hammond, C. T., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1999. Phloroglucinol as a natural phenolic constituent of Humulus lupulus (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 87: 2105.

32. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1997. Cytochemical localization of cellulase activity associated with secretory cavity formation in glandular trichomes of Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Jour. Plant Biol. 40: 61-66.

31. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1997. Plastid development in glandular trichomes of Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Mol. Cells 7: 352-359.

30. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1997. Immunochemical localization of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) in cryofixed glandular trichomes of Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 83: 336-342. Link to Abstract, full text available for a subscription fee.

29. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1995. Glandular cuticle formation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 82: 1207-1214.

28. Hammond, C.T., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1994. Phloroglucinol glucoside as a natural constituent of Cannabis sativa. Phytochemistry 37: 755-756.

27. Mahlberg, P. G., and E. S. Kim. 1992. Secretory vesicle formation in glandular trichomes of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 79:166-173.

26. Mahlberg, P. G., and E. S. Kim. 1991. Cuticle development on glandular trichomes of Cannabis L. (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 78:1113-1122.

25. Kim, E. S., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1991. Secretory cavity development of glandular trichome of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 78:142-151.

24. Hammond, C. T., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1990. Thin-layer chromatographic identification of phenol in the glandular secretory system of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Ind. Acad. Sci. 98:201-209.

23. Turner, J., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1988. In vivo incorporation of labeled precursors into cannabinoids in seedlings of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae) pp. 263-270. In, G. Chesher, P. Consroe and R. Musty (eds.), Marihuana. Australian Gov't. Publ.

22. Vogelmann, A., J. Turner, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1988. Cannabinoid composition in seedlings compared to adult plants of Cannabis sativa. J. Nat. Prod. 51:1075-1079.

21. Vogelmann, A., J. Turner, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1987. Cannabinoid occurrence in seedlings of Cannabis sativa L.: Quantitation in seedlings of known age and primary leaf length. Bot. Gaz. 148:468-477.

20. Turner, J., P. G. Mahlberg, V. Lanyon, and J. Pleszczynska. 1985. A temporal study of cannabinoid composition in continual clones of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Bot. Gaz. 146:32-38.

19. Vogelmann, A., J. Turner, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1984. Sequential appearance of cannabinoids during seedling development in Cannabis sativa L., pp. 18-23. In: Marihuana, D. Harvey (ed.). IRL Press, Oxford, UK.

18. Turner, J., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1984. Effects of sample treatment on chromatographic analysis of cannabinoids in Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). J. Chromatogr. 283:165-171.

17. Turner, J., and P. G. Mahlberg. 1984. Separation of acid and neutral cannabinoids in Cannabis sativa L. using HPLC, pp. 79-88. In: "Biology of Cannabinoids," W. Dewey, S. Agurell, and R. Willette (eds.). Academic Press, N.Y.

16. Mahlberg, P. G., J. Turner, J. Hemphill, and C. Hammond. 1984. Ultrastructure, development and composition of glandular trichomes of Cannabis, pp. 23-51. In: Biology and Chemistry of Plant Trichomes, E. Rodriguez, P. Healey, and I. Mehta (eds.). Pergamon Press, New York.

15. Mahlberg, P. G., and J. Hemphill. 1983. The effect of light quality on cannabinoid composition of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Bot. Gaz. 144:43-48.

14. Turner, J. and P. G. Mahlberg. 1982. Simple high-performance liquid chromatographic method for separating acidic and neutral cannabinoids in Cannabis sativa L. Jour. Chromatogr. 253:295-303.

13. Turner, J., J. Hemphill, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1982. Interrelationships of glandular trichomes and cannabinoid content. II. Developing leaves of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Bull. on Narc. 33:63-71.

12. Furr, M. and P. G. Mahlberg. 1981. Histochemical analyses of unbranched non articulated laticifers and capitate glandular hairs in Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Jour. Nat. Prod. 41:153-159.

11. Lanyon, V., J. Turner, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1981. Quantitative analysis of cannabinoids in the secretory product from capitate-stalked glands of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Bot. Gaz. 142:316-319.

10. Turner, J., J. Hemphill, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1981. Interrelationships of glandular trichomes and cannabinoid content. I: Developing pistillate bracts of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Bull. on Narc. 33:59-69.

9. Hemphill, J., J. Turner, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1980. Cannabinoid content of individual plant organs from different geographical strains of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Jour. Nat. Prod. 43:112-122.

8. Turner, J., J. Hemphill, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1980. Trichomes and cannabinoid content in developing leaves and bracts of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 67:1397 1406.

7. Hammond, C. and P. G. Mahlberg. 1978. Ultrastructural development of capitate glandular hairs of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 65:140-151.

6. Turner, J., J. Hemphill, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1978. Studies on growth and cannabinoid composition of callus derived of Cannabis sativa. Lloydia 41:453-462.

5. Turner, J., J. Hemphill, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1978. Quantitative determination of cannabinoids in individual glandular trichomes of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 65:1103-1106.

4. Turner, J., J. Hemphill, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1978. Cannabinoid composition and gland distribution in clones of Cannabis sativa L. Bull. on Narc. 30:55-65.

3. Hammond, C. and P. G. Mahlberg. 1977. Morphogenesis of capitate glandular hairs of Cannabis sativa L. (Cannabaceae). Amer. J. Bot. 64:1023-1031.

2. Turner, J., J. Hemphill, and P. G. Mahlberg. 1977. Gland distribution and cannabinoid content in clones of Cannabis sativa. Amer. J. Bot. 64:687-693.

1. Hammond, C. and P. G. Mahlberg. 1973. Morphology for glandular hairs of Cannabis sativa L. from scanning electron microscopy. Amer. J. Bot. 60:524-528.
*
*​


----------



## cannabisguru (Mar 7, 2011)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> I certainly wasn't looking for some 'excuse' to harvest early. I got all of that out of my system the first year or so of growing, buying anything that claimed to make it flower faster. I know none of that shit works, but you should see the facility that some guy named 'K' has. Sure looks like he'd know a thing or 2. He's got 2 Twister trim machines...that's $30,000 just in trimmers! Facility is unbeleivable.


K, I would like to say something if I may.. 

You clearly seem to be getting it confused. Just because this guy named "K" or 'R' or whatever his name his.. has all this beautiful and new expensive machinery doesn't mean shit. Some of the best growers out there.. use the basic shit. Such as myself.. I'm no expert.. and never have/will claim to be one. However, I know my shit at the same time.

But like I said, your getting it mixed up. Just because someone has all the fancy equipment.. doesn't mean jack shit bro. It's what he has upstairs.. knowledge wise. You can have all the fancy and new equipment in the world.. but that doesn't mean you know what your doing.

Just keeping it real. 

peace.


----------



## two2brains (Mar 7, 2011)

keep it simple.

Just let it go till you see first sight of amber then chop.

genetics will determine how slow or fast it will start to turn but all strains do eventually.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 7, 2011)

if you chop it early your hash will be "blonde".


----------



## randomseed (Mar 7, 2011)

I harvest like I pop popcorn.
When the bud growth stops "Poppin" then its done, I dont risk getting every kernal poped against a bag of burnt popcorn.
I only look at trichrome color when Im bored.
Most strains have a way of telling you when their done, it just takes some experience to see it.


----------



## theexpress (Mar 7, 2011)

half amber half milky to me give the strongest buzz


----------



## ianlfc1 (Mar 7, 2011)

what if u need to cut it down one week early due to the stinking smell getting to much can anyone help?


----------



## GreatwhiteNorth (Mar 7, 2011)

ianlfc1 said:


> what if u need to cut it down one week early due to the stinking smell getting to much can anyone help?


Help with what?


----------



## randomseed (Mar 9, 2011)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Help with what?


Help you smoke it after you cut it? Down.


----------



## Serapis (Mar 9, 2011)

I used to agree with that line of thinking. I just took 14 ounces and there wasn't an amber trich in the bunch.



theexpress said:


> half amber half milky to me give the strongest buzz


----------



## Serapis (Mar 9, 2011)

I fail to see a problem.... you are growing weed, didn't you think it would stink? 



ianlfc1 said:


> what if u need to cut it down one week early due to the stinking smell getting to much can anyone help?


----------



## homebrewer (Mar 9, 2011)

Alex Kelly said:


> Hope that's not a serious question. Unneccessary and not helpful.


 I have a feeling I've been more helpful to people around here than you have. I probably have more experience too so you may want to pay attention .


----------



## GreatwhiteNorth (Mar 9, 2011)

I've got a great idea - post your address here - your fellow RIU afficinados will show up & help you dispose of your problem.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 9, 2011)

cannabisguru said:


> But like I said, your getting it mixed up. Just because someone has all the fancy equipment.. doesn't mean jack shit bro. *It's what he has upstairs.. knowledge wise.* You can have all the fancy and new equipment in the world.. but that doesn't mean you know what your doing.


The Doctor whose information about harvesting early that was in High Times, Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg, is *a Professor of Biology (plant biology) and Senior Fellow of the Institute of Molecular and Cellular Biology, Indiana University. He received his Ph.D. in Botany at the University of California, Berkeley and his MS and BS degrees in Botany at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. He has studied cannabis for over thirty years* and has published over thirty articles on cannabis (Cannabis sativa), a tall annual dioecious plant group which includes both industrial hemp and marijuana. Wrote Laboratory Program in Plant Anatomy, and published two educational films. Served as a consulting editor to Academic Press in the preparation of ten monographs. Collaborated with Dr. Ivan Bocsa, Kompolt, Hungary, in a three-year USDA sponsored research study on hemp, and with Dr. Eun Soo Kim, Seoul, Korea, on organization and composition of glandular trichomes in cannabis and related plants. Served as a consultant to the United Nations Industrial Organization, Vienna, on industrial processing of raw opiates; to the University of Mississippi, School of Pharmacy, in its cannabis program; and to private companies in studies on secondary products of plants. Member of the board of directors of the Door County (Wisconsin) Land Trust which is dedicated to preservation of ecologically important land*, *and you are questioning if he knows what he is talking about, if he has it upstairs? 

Please tell me you are joking.

This guy knows more about cannabis plants than everyone on this site put together. He has performed scientific research on cannabis plants for over 30 years, that's more years than most members here have been alive, and more years than the number of crops many members here have grown ....... and people here have the audacity to question him and say that he is wrong?

I am unsure if that is the epitome of arrogance, ignorance or both. 


* 

*


----------



## fatboyOGOF (Mar 9, 2011)

if indeed all clear trichs is when thc is at it's peak, then it is clear to me that I and every stoner i know prefer less thc and more cbd/ cbn and whatever else in their high. so all this time we primarily talked about THC and it's really a combo of things that get us to that place we really like. 

i would talk up the lovely high from all clear trichs but the reality is when i put it side by side with all cloudy trichs, the cloudy won every time. don't get me wrong, it is a nice high. you'll understand what they mean by soaring (all head no body) but to me it's a novelty as opposed to something to smoke with your buds or when you just want to chill. 

where people describe the nice and clean high from all clear trichs, i smoke the same stuff and think of it as something to smoke when i can't get a good buzz on and just want a light high. i used to cut some plants this early because i wanted something "weaker" (for lack of a better description) for certain things. i didn't even do it for a daytime high as, to me, it was missing something. something warm and familiar. 

i've got over 50 indoor grows (about 3.5 grows per year for 16 years or so) and i've cut from all clear trichs up to mostly cloudy with 1/4 amber trichs. the all clear is a nice little buzz but it never compares to the feeling when i cut the same genetics later. friends would like the later cut stuff more too. to the point of saying that the stuff that was cut clear was ok but not great. i always make them rank from one to 10. the all clear trich reefer never gets over a 6. not once and i did it a few times. all my genetics are high quality name brand so it's not a matter of me not having good stuff.

when you let friends smoke your all clear trich reefer, don't tell them about the trichs before they smoke and ask them to judge it against the same reefer that was mostly cloudy. i'm not a gambling man but i'd lay down some money on which they prefer. 

they'll like the high from the clear and when you tell them about the all clear trichs having the most thc and it being a head vs head/body stone they'll go - oh yea, i see what you mean - but once the novelty wears off, they'll want to smoke the cloudy when you offer them a choice. at least these were my unscientific findings from years of experimenting. i've had a core of 6 people testing my stuff for years and they have their friends try it so it's a pretty good sampling. 

a few years ago, i decided that i wanted to smoke all day as opposed to smoking a joint and being zonked so i started cutting at 50% clear 50% cloudy. i and everyone else who has smoked it refer to it as a weaker high and prefer the stuff when it's cut later.

my current crop (super silver haze, S.A.G.E. and swiss bliss) are 1/2 clear- /1/2 cloudy today except the SAGEes which are still mostly clear. for the ssh and swiss bliss i'm waiting another 10 days at least for a mostly cloudy with a few amber and very few clear. IMO, it's simply a better high. i believe that most of you who cut at all clear trichs will soon go back to "normal". it's a nice buzz, not a great one. enjoy the journey!  

been there, done that.


----------



## ashleyroachclip (Mar 10, 2011)

Very interesting thread..it seems there's been a lot of fresh info on this topic in the last year or so.
On a related note, does anyone know anything about Plants that mature from the bottom up, leaving the top colas never quite done? I'm in week 9 of flowering with some mystery Indica strains and the middle buds are getting red and 30-40%cloudy while the big fat top colas are still totally white pistilwise and mostly clear trichs. I'm gonna keep waiting, harvesting the buds that are done as they are done, but am concerned that the top colas will never finish. Thoughts? I've got some pics at wk 8 posted in another thread...check my profile for the "getting soooo close" thread.

Thanks!!


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 16, 2011)

THE PROPAGATION, CHARACTERISATION AND OPTIMISATION OF CANNABIS SATIVA L AS A PHYTOPHARMACEUTICAL
A thesis submitted by
David Potter JP
MIBiol CBiol FLS CMIOSH
In fulfilment of the requirement
for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy (PhD)
in Pharmaceutical Sciences
Department of Pharmaceutical Science Research
Kings College London
March 2009

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45314555/David-Potter-PhD-Thesis




The relationship between trichome colour and cannabinoid content is shown in Figure 3.22. The data were more evenly spread than those from the corresponding trichome density study. *The slope of the regression line shows that there is a weak but significant tendency for darker coloured trichomes to be associated with low-potency cannabis samples.* 










*The comparison between trichome colour and CBN content showed that the lower average potency in darker colour trichomes could be almost entirely due the THC having catabolised in these samples.*.


----------



## zoso914 (Mar 16, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> so keep scaring people into harvesting early. you're doing a GREAT job.


Dude there is definitely a difference between what they suggest sientifically and what most of us grow at home and the scientifical pot to me doesn't cut it maybe for the medically needy but not me I want the rocket ship every time my friend so go ahead and stick to all the Ground science you want I believe you 100% I just know its not for me I will continue to grow along side my buddy riddleme I like what he has to say about things more along what I like to hear see and above all Smell & Taste. FDD Keeep on Keeping on my friend peace out and by the way stop on by my grow and shed some of your light there too Titled in the Journals as SkunkII or newbie thread is Homers Guide To The Universe.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 16, 2011)

you could just get a bag of meth. 

i prefer to be stoned. 

harvest early, i got my own.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 16, 2011)

if i take 2 hits from a strain with 20% THC is that the same as taking 4 hits from a strain with 10%?

can you get higher? or is there a "plateau"?

if you have a pound of weed, does any of this matter?


----------



## longbeachOG (Mar 16, 2011)

i harvested some bud when when it was 80% clear 20% milky, bud still needed some time, but it was some goood goood smoke. IMO i like fat juicy nugs, and harvesting when clear the nugs are probably not gonna be done


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 16, 2011)

longbeachOG said:


> i harvested some bud when when it was 80% clear 20% milky, bud still needed some time, but it was some goood goood smoke. IMO i like fat juicy nugs, and harvesting when clear the nugs are probably not gonna be done


Scientifically proven facts are just that, scientifically proven facts, but that does not mean following them to the letter will give someone what they prefer. 

As long as someone talks preference and does not attempt to pawn it off as being facts that's totally cool and the gang, but when someone tries to pawn off personal preference as being proven facts, that's misleading to people who do not know any better. 

Someone with a PhD and a high tech lab can prove what they say is true, but the most any grower/toker can accurately say is that the prefer something when it is done different than what the PhD proved, that they like something more when it is done different than what the PhD proved.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 16, 2011)

so when it comes right down to it, ... all that matters is what I think, since i am the one smoking it. 

this could be said by everyone.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 16, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> so when it comes right down to it, ... all that matters is what I think, since i am the one smoking it.
> 
> this could be said by everyone.



Sure ... because that is based strictly on personal preference and absolutely nothing more, just as someone saying they prefer a predominantly indica cross over a predominantly sativa cross, or the other way around. As long as it is stated as personal likes or dislikes, personal preference, then you are absolutely right.


----------



## EvolAlex (Mar 16, 2011)

So, have we came to a conclusion that weed is scientifically higher in thc when trichs are clear? 
The plant is obviously not fully mature at that moment of time so this really isn't making sense to me. 

Also i am a legit insomnia patient, i smoke for that reason and also recreational. I prefer the couchlock, ktfo stone. Could someone please point me in the right direction to learn more info about CBN, CBD, THC and what they mean, what they do to you, and how they work? Something that is in english not scientific nerd jumble. Thanks.



*edit: nevermind that would be this thread, i got some reading to do, skim through then nonsense absorb the knowledge.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 16, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> Sure ... because that is based strictly on personal preference and absolutely nothing more, just as someone saying they prefer a predominantly indica cross over a predominantly sativa cross, or the other way around. As long as it is stated as personal likes or dislikes, personal preference, then you are absolutely right.


what else is there, and what would it matter?


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

> *Originally Posted by Brick Top  * *Sure ... because that is based strictly on personal preference and absolutely nothing more, just as someone saying they prefer a predominantly indica cross over a predominantly sativa cross, or the other way around. As long as it is stated as personal likes or dislikes, personal preference, then you are absolutely right.*







fdd2blk said:


> what else is there, and what would it matter?



When you take the topic of the thread into consideration and how it is about harvesting earlier than many people have for some time, wrongly believing that harvesting late would be when maximum levels of THC would be achieved/reached, that is what else there is and what would matter if they attempted to incorrectly claim that harvesting late meant maximum levels of THC would be achieved rather than just saying it is their personal preference to harvest at some other time for whatever reason or reasons.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

hmmm, ....


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> if i take 2 hits from a strain with 20% THC is that the same as taking 4 hits from a strain with 10%?
> 
> can you get higher? or is there a "plateau"?
> 
> if you have a pound of weed, does any of this matter?





these were honest questions. 

everyone ignored them.


----------



## EvolAlex (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> these were honest questions.
> 
> everyone ignored them.


very good questions, i've always wondared this


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

where does hash fit in?


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> hmmm, ....



If the topic of the thread were to be ignored, what you said would be totally correct. If at least some attempt is made to remain topical than what you said would not be correct since the topic of the thread is when maximum levels of THC are reached and not what each individual grower's personal preference is. 

As long as if someone harvests early or late, rather than when peak levels of THC are achieved, and they say they do so strictly due to personal preference, that they do so just because they like it better that way, rather than to incorrectly claim that their preferred harvest time is when maximum levels of THC are reached then it's totally cool and the gang. If not, then they are misleading people by making inaccurate unsubstantiated unproven claims.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> where does hash fit in?


I am curious about the way the THC percentage of hash is determined. Is it determined the same way as trichomes from a plant or is it based on something else, figured/rated in some other manner?


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

> if i take 2 hits from a strain with 20% THC is that the same as taking 4 hits from a strain with 10%?


I would say that if all cannabinoids, terpenoids etc, would be in the same ratios, then yes, but if in differing ratios someone might get higher off the two hits of 20% THC or higher off the four hits of 10% THC.




> can you get higher? or is there a "plateau"?


That would be a strain dependent question. As most everyone knows, some strains clearly have a ceiling, and at times they can be relatively low, and others seem to be ceiling-less. 




> if you have a pound of weed, does any of this matter?



Wouldn't that depend on the perception of each individual, and also at least to some degree the quality of the weed? If someone has a pound of Roadside Red where they could smoke an ounce of it and hardly get high they would likely see things differently than someone who had a pound of weed where two or three hits put them in the ozone for hours on end.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

how can some weed gets you really high, yet some can only get you a little high? regardless of how much of it you smoke.


----------



## bajafox (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> how can some weed gets you really high, yet some can only get you a little high? regardless of how much of it you smoke.


I seriously read that 20 times and after not smoking for 2 weeks and finally being able to, I may be too high to answer....


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

bajafox said:


> I seriously read that 20 times and after not smoking for 2 weeks and finally being able to, I may be too high to answer....


even cheap beer will get you shitfaced, if you drink enough. 

pot isn't really like that.


----------



## bajafox (Mar 17, 2011)

ok I think now I get it....lol


That reminds me of when I used to smoke nothing but "mech," smoked all day and all night until I finally got drunk enough to get some sleep, but when we found "chronic" it didn't take so long


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> how can some weed gets you really high, yet some can only get you a little high? regardless of how much of it you smoke.



Anyone that has smoked long enough has run across strains that had ceilings and no matter how much you smoked you would only get so high, and that is all. It comes down to the ratios/mix of cannabinoids, terpenoids, etc.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> Anyone that has smoked long enough has run across strains that had ceilings and no matter how much you smoked you would only get so high, and that is all. It comes down to the ratios/mix of cannabinoids, terpenoids, etc.


that's the best you got? "that is all..."  

so there _is_ a mix? 

why all the focus on THC then? 

this thread confuses me.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

*Table of natural cannabinoids*

Cannabigerol-type (CBG)  Cannabigerol
*(E)-CBG-C5*
 Cannabigerol
monomethyl ether
*(E)-CBGM-C5 A*
 Cannabinerolic acid A
*(Z)-CBGA-C5 A*
 Cannabigerovarin
*(E)-CBGV-C3*

 Cannabigerolic acid A
*(E)-CBGA-C5 A*
 Cannabigerolic acid A
monomethyl ether
*(E)-CBGAM-C5 A*
 Cannabigerovarinic acid A
*(E)-CBGVA-C3 A*


Cannabichromene-type (CBC)  (±)-Cannabichromene
*CBC-C5*
 (±)-Cannabichromenic acid A
*CBCA-C5 A*
 (±)-Cannabivarichromene,
(±)-Cannabichromevarin
*CBCV-C3*
 (±)-Cannabichromevarinic
acid A
*CBCVA-C3 A*

Cannabidiol-type (CBD)  (&#8722-Cannabidiol
*CBD-C5*
 Cannabidiol
momomethyl ether
*CBDM-C5*
 Cannabidiol-C4
*CBD-C4*
 (&#8722-Cannabidivarin
*CBDV-C3*
 Cannabidiorcol
*CBD-C1*
 Cannabidiolic acid
*CBDA-C5*
 Cannabidivarinic acid
*CBDVA-C3*



Cannabinodiol-type (CBND)  Cannabinodiol
*CBND-C5*
 Cannabinodivarin
*CBND-C3*



Tetrahydrocannabinol-type (THC)  &#916;9-Tetrahydrocannabinol
*&#916;9-THC-C5*
 &#916;9-Tetrahydrocannabinol-C4
*&#916;9-THC-C4*
 &#916;9-Tetrahydrocannabivarin
*&#916;9-THCV-C3*
 &#916;9-Tetrahydrocannabiorcol
*&#916;9-THCO-C1*

 &#916;9-Tetrahydro-
cannabinolic acid A
*&#916;9-THCA-C5 A*
 &#916;9-Tetrahydro-
cannabinolic acid B
*&#916;9-THCA-C5 B*
 &#916;9-Tetrahydro-
cannabinolic acid-C4
A and/or B
*&#916;9-THCA-C4 A and/or B*
 &#916;9-Tetrahydro-
cannabivarinic acid A
*&#916;9-THCVA-C3 A*
 &#916;9-Tetrahydro-
cannabiorcolic acid
A and/or B
*&#916;9-THCOA-C1 A and/or B*
 (&#8722-&#916;8-_trans_-(6a_R_,10a_R_)-
&#916;8-Tetrahydrocannabinol
*&#916;8-THC-C5*
 (&#8722-&#916;8-_trans_-(6a_R_,10a_R_)-
Tetrahydrocannabinolic
acid A
*&#916;8-THCA-C5 A*
 (&#8722-(6a_S_,10a_R_)-&#916;9-
Tetrahydrocannabinol
*(&#8722-cis-&#916;9-THC-C5*


Cannabinol-type (CBN)  Cannabinol
*CBN-C5*
 Cannabinol-C4
*CBN-C4*
 Cannabivarin
*CBN-C3*
 Cannabinol-C2
*CBN-C2*
 Cannabiorcol
*CBN-C1*
 Cannabinolic acid A
*CBNA-C5 A*
 Cannabinol methyl ether
*CBNM-C5*



Cannabitriol-type (CBT)  (&#8722-(9_R_,10_R_)-_trans_-
Cannabitriol
*(&#8722-trans-CBT-C5*
 (+)-(9_S_,10_S_)-Cannabitriol
*(+)-trans-CBT-C5*
 (±)-(9_R_,10_S_/9_S_,10_R_)-
Cannabitriol
*(±)-cis-CBT-C5*
 (&#8722-(9_R_,10_R_)-_trans_-
10-O-Ethyl-cannabitriol
*(&#8722-trans-CBT-OEt-C5*
 (±)-(9_R_,10_R_/9_S_,10_S_)-
Cannabitriol-C3
*(±)-trans-CBT-C3*
 8,9-Dihydroxy-&#916;6a(10a)-
tetrahydrocannabinol
*8,9-Di-OH-CBT-C5*
 Cannabidiolic acid A
cannabitriol ester
*CBDA-C5 9-OH-CBT-C5 ester*
 (&#8722-(6a_R_,9_S_,10_S_,10a_R_)-
9,10-Dihydroxy-
hexahydrocannabinol,
Cannabiripsol
*Cannabiripsol-C5*
 (&#8722-6a,7,10a-Trihydroxy-
&#916;9-tetrahydrocannabinol
*(&#8722-Cannabitetrol*
 10-Oxo-&#916;6a(10a)-
tetrahydrocannabinol
*OTHC*
Cannabielsoin-type (CBE)  (5a_S_,6_S_,9_R_,9a_R_)-
Cannabielsoin
*CBE-C5*
 (5a_S_,6_S_,9_R_,9a_R_)-
C3-Cannabielsoin
*CBE-C3*
 (5a_S_,6_S_,9_R_,9a_R_)-
Cannabielsoic acid A
*CBEA-C5 A*
 (5a_S_,6_S_,9_R_,9a_R_)-
Cannabielsoic acid B
*CBEA-C5 B*
 (5a_S_,6_S_,9_R_,9a_R_)-
C3-Cannabielsoic acid B
*CBEA-C3 B*
 Cannabiglendol-C3
*OH-iso-HHCV-C3*
 Dehydrocannabifuran
*DCBF-C5*
 Cannabifuran
*CBF-C5*


Isocannabinoids  (&#8722-&#916;7-_trans_-(1_R_,3_R_,6_R_)-
Isotetrahydrocannabinol
 (±)-&#916;7-1,2-_cis_-
(1_R_,3_R_,6_S_/1_S_,3_S_,6_R_)-
Isotetrahydro-
cannabivarin
 (&#8722-&#916;7-_trans_-(1_R_,3_R_,6_R_)-
Isotetrahydrocannabivarin


Cannabicyclol-type (CBL)  (±)-(1a_S_,3a_R_,8b_R_,8c_R_)-
Cannabicyclol
*CBL-C5*
 (±)-(1a_S_,3a_R_,8b_R_,8c_R_)-
Cannabicyclolic acid A
*CBLA-C5 A*
 (±)-(1a_S_,3a_R_,8b_R_,8c_R_)-
Cannabicyclovarin
*CBLV-C3*


Cannabicitran-type (CBT)  Cannabicitran
*CBT-C5*




Cannabichromanone-type (CBCN)  Cannabichromanone
*CBCN-C5*
 Cannabichromanone-C3
*CBCN-C3*
 Cannabicoumaronone
*CBCON-C5*


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

so which one of those, exactly, are we looking at to find "peak harvest time"?


----------



## bajafox (Mar 17, 2011)

post it in lei mans terms


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

bajafox said:


> post it in lei mans terms



there is more then one thing in weed working to effect your brain. THC is only one of numerous things to consider. 

so how do we tell when "peak THC level" is? we need a big machine or something?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid


----------



## cannabisguru (Mar 17, 2011)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> New High Times has an article that says Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg has done a study proving that trichromes are most potent when clear-not milky and certainly not amber. Can anyone find this study without spending 3 days reading everything the guy ever wrote?


Ignore this ignorance everyone..

fact remains.. a plant takes time to produce THC (as well as other cannabinoids). Harvesting too early.. will fuck your crop up.. you'll be left with a product that has absolutely NO taste/potency to it, whatsoever.

If you decide to listen to this nonsense.. well, that's your own fault.

peace..

*im personally done with this thread.. I know the facts.. and this is incorrect information**


----------



## cannabisguru (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> how can some weed gets you really high, yet some can only get you a little high? regardless of how much of it you smoke.


some of it depends on the THC content.. and other cannabinoid content.

once again, it all depends on when you harvest.. as to how potent that particular strain will come out to be in the end.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

cannabisguru said:


> Ignore this ignorance everyone..
> 
> fact remains.. a plant takes time to produce THC (as well as other cannabinoids). Harvesting too early.. will fuck your crop up.. you'll be left with a product that has absolutely NO taste/potency to it, whatsoever.
> 
> ...


you aren't supposed to be insulting other members.


----------



## cannabisguru (Mar 17, 2011)

EvolAlex said:


> So, have we came to a conclusion that weed is scientifically higher in thc when trichs are clear?
> The plant is obviously not fully mature at that moment of time so this really isn't making sense to me.
> 
> Also i am a legit insomnia patient, i smoke for that reason and also recreational. I prefer the couchlock, ktfo stone. Could someone please point me in the right direction to learn more info about CBN, CBD, THC and what they mean, what they do to you, and how they work? Something that is in english not scientific nerd jumble. Thanks.
> ...



It doesnt make any sense because its NONSENSE!!! It's incorrect information..

please, for the love of God people... listen to yourselves!!! I'm seeing experienced growers in this thread.. actually questioning their own knowledge.. 

Well, not me.. I know how a plant works.. and I know when a plant is ripe/mature... and a plant with all/mostly all clear trichs.. or even mostly cloudy/hazey trichs.. is not a mature/ripe plant.

But hey, you guys go on about this.. and when you waste 6 or 7 weeks of your life that you will never get back... and harvest early.. and end up with a ruined harvest.. don't come crying to me about it.. because I'm giving out a notice to all experienced growers.. don't listen to this nonsense.

Lastly, this is the kind of "nonsense" information I am against. It's also this same kind of ignorant information.. that I've been talking about.. about how there is WAY too much incorrect information floating around.. and this 'article' will only add to that pile of false information.

So once again, if you choose to follow/listen to this crap... then that's your own fault.

*k, now I am done with this thread..* just had to get that last bit out of my system. 
peace..


----------



## cannabisguru (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> you aren't supposed to be insulting other members.


dude, I didn't insult anyone.

jeeez. I'm just trying to help keep false information like this.. from reaching sites like this. That's all.

peace.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> that's the best you got? "that is all..."
> 
> so there _is_ a mix?
> 
> ...



As anyone who understands cannabinoids and terpenoids knows that some work to enhance the affects of THC and others will work against, will detract or moderate the affects of THC. Depending on the given the ratio of cannabinoids and terpenoids a strain can have a ceiling, a low ceiling, and others can be ceiling-less. 

Sorry if I confused you, but then you might have confused some when you took a thread about when maximum levels of THC are reached in plants and tried to make it instead all about personal preference dictating when someone should harvest.

If you care to learn about what sort of things affect cannabinoid production follow the link to the thesis I posted. It's only 256 pages long (online pages), so it is a short read, but in it you will find how the number of hours of light per day plants receive at different stages of flowering affects the production of certain cannabinoids where in some cases there will be increased amounts and in other cases there will be decreased amounts.

In short that means that not all are produced in equal or relative equal amounts depending on the amount of light plants receive at different stages of flowering and that of course means there can be greater amounts of certain cannabinoids and lesser amounts of others and not always the same or equal or relative equal amounts and since cannabinoids and terpenoids work in conjunction with each other when the amounts differ, the results will differ, the high or stone will differ. 

It's just that simple.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> As anyone who understands cannabinoids and terpenoids knows that some work to enhance the affects of THC and others will work against, will detract or moderate the affects of THC. Depending on the given the ratio of cannabinoids and terpenoids a strain can have a ceiling, a low ceiling, and others can be ceiling-less.
> 
> Sorry if I confused you, but then you might have confused some when you took a thread about when maximum levels of THC are reached in plants and tried to make it instead all about personal preference dictating when someone should harvest.
> 
> ...



you are entirely missing my point. then again, i think you are agreeing with me. 


THC levels aren't as relevant as this article is making them out to be. there are NUMEROUS other compounds that lead to getting high. why are none of them addressed.

the whole "personal preference" thing was a lead in to this. 


how does the level of THC factor into the high of THC?

can low leveled strains get you higher then high leveled strains? 


i don't need to read anything. i have a house full of plants. i should be writing the articles.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

cannabisguru said:


> some of it depends on the THC content.. and other cannabinoid content.
> 
> once again, it all depends on when you harvest.. as to how potent that particular strain will come out to be in the end.



The thread is about when maximum levels of THC are reached/achieved, and not about what the personal perception of each person causes them to believe. 

I do not see where it is difficult for anyone to understand how the results of PhDs with the latest high tech lab equipment for testing THC levels would have to be considered to be more accurate than an individuals senses would be. One will give precise amounts and the other would be an individual attempting to guess based on the sensations they feel.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

i think high times is just trying to cover their ass for all those earlier harvested bud pics they print. 

high times.  hahahhaha


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

Brick Top said:


> The thread is about when maximum levels of THC are reached/achieved, and not about what the personal perception of each person causes them to believe.
> 
> I do not see where it is difficult for anyone to understand how the results of PhDs with the latest high tech lab equipment for testing THC levels would have to be considered to be more accurate than an individuals senses would be. One will give precise amounts and the other would be an individual attempting to guess based on the sensations they feel.


what i don't get is why you can't understand that "test results" don't get a person high. 

what works for you may not work for me. therefore telling me when i should harvest my crop is irrelevant. especially when they are ONLY addressing THC. what if i want a "heady high". what's peak for me might not be peak for you.

so at this exact moment this plant has more THC then it ever will, ... what happens in 2 more days? the THC levels may have lowered but haven't other levels risen? THC is not the only thing we need to focus on.

why are numbers so important? and why are you mocking "sensations" when that is the main GOAL?


----------



## cannabisguru (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> i think high times is just trying to cover their ass for all those earlier harvested bud pics they print.
> 
> high times.  hahahhaha


booyah! exactly.

thank you.


peace.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> you are entirely missing my point. then again, i think you are agreeing with me.
> 
> 
> THC levels aren't as relevant as this article is making them out to be. there are NUMEROUS other compounds that lead to getting high. why are none of them addressed.
> ...



Now you have me a bit confused. Previously you asked; "*so there is a mix?"*Now you take it as red that there is a mix. Is that because I gave a very general explanation of it or were you just play acting before?




> THC levels aren't as releveant as this article is making them out to be. there are NUMEROUS other compounds that lead to getting high. why are nione of them addressed.



The thread is about when maximum levels of THC are reached. Regardless of that not being all there is to a high, if someone is going to remain topical then this thread is all about THC and when maximum levels are reached. 

And I did post information and a graph or two from the thesis that supported the information the thread is based on.


> can low leveled strains get you higher then high leveled strains?



That was already touched on when cannabinoid ratios were mentioned. But again the thread is about when maximum levels of THC are reached.




> i don't need to read anything. i have a house full of plants. i should be writing the articles


When you can equal or top the following person and his credentials, and the number of years of experience and the credentials of the PhD who wrote what this thread is about, then yes, you should begin to write books and articles. 

A thesis submitted by
David Potter JP
MIBiol CBiol FLS CMIOSH
In fulfilment of the requirement
for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy (PhD)
in Pharmaceutical Sciences
Department of Pharmaceutical Science Research
King&#8217;s College London

And:

*NAIHC Board Member Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg is a Professor of Biology (plant biology) and Senior Fellow of the Institute of Molecular and Cellular Biology, Indiana University. He received his Ph.D. in Botany at the University of California, Berkeley and his MS and BS degrees in Botany at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. He has studied cannabis for over thirty years and has published over thirty articles on cannabis (Cannabis sativa), a tall annual dioecious plant group which includes both industrial hemp and marijuana. Wrote Laboratory Program in Plant Anatomy, and published two educational films. Served as a consulting editor to Academic Press in the preparation of ten monographs. Collaborated with Dr. Ivan Bocsa, Kompolt, Hungary, in a three-year USDA sponsored research study on hemp, and with Dr. Eun Soo Kim, Seoul, Korea, on organization and composition of glandular trichomes in cannabis and related plants. Served as a consultant to the United Nations Industrial Organization, Vienna, on industrial processing of raw opiates; to the University of Mississippi, School of Pharmacy, in its cannabis program; and to private companies in studies on secondary products of plants. Member of the board of directors of the Door County (Wisconsin) Land Trust which is dedicated to preservation of ecologically important land. 

One of only two federal DEA permits to grow cannabis in the United States is held by Dr. Mahlberg. His research program began over thirty years ago and continues to the present, specializing in the ultra structure of the resin-producing gland and the biogenesis of its cannabinoids.



If and when you are in the same league as those to men are, I would agree that you should begin writing about cannabis plants and cannabinoids and terpenoids and THC levels and potency ...... again, that is if and when you are in the same league as they are.*


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

fine, whatever. some dude has a machine and can tell when "peak levels" are.

i guess i rejoice now. 




i guess this is a dick sucking thread about smart dude's, or something.


----------



## fdd2blk (Mar 17, 2011)

none of this means anything to me or my plants. i grow them until they are ripe and i smoke them. must people follow along this way. 

seems like some people just have shit to prove. 

i have never disagreed with anything in this thread. i just don't get the point and i feel not enough focus is put on the numerous other compounds. 

i'm allowed this opinion.


----------



## Unnk (Mar 17, 2011)

how come i never hear a peep from people on the reactiveness of THCV


----------



## infinitescrog (Mar 17, 2011)

fdd2blk said:


> if i take 2 hits from a strain with 20% THC is that the same as taking 4 hits from a strain with 10%?
> 
> can you get higher? or is there a "plateau"?
> 
> if you have a pound of weed, does any of this matter?


It's like drinking regular strength beer (>4.5%) to drinking that 3.2% garbage you find all over Iowa and other states.
So if you have a case does it matter?

You're not going to get lit off 3.2 and you're going to get a headache. Whereas unless you're a pro you won't finish a 24pack of real beer.

To each his own like you're sayin.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 18, 2011)

Unnk said:


> how come i never hear a peep from people on the reactiveness of THCV


I have mentioned THCV in the past, not in this thread though, and had people laugh at me as if it does nothing or does not exist.


----------



## Brick Top (Mar 18, 2011)

> fdd2blk said:
> 
> 
> > i have never disagreed with anything in this thread. i just don't get the point and i feel not enough focus is put on the numerous other compounds.
> ...


----------



## CaptainCAVEMAN (Mar 19, 2011)

This thread keeps getting better. Thanks guys!


----------



## TDM (Jun 11, 2011)

True...I always pulled mine when they reached 1/3 amber. My friend believes to let all the pistals turn (talk about CBN), personally I hate the "down" overlaced CBN buds deliver. But science is also discovering the THC alone is not the only active ingredient, it takes the right combination for the killer.


----------



## Drr (Jun 18, 2011)

It's all about the balance of chemicals.. They are at different levels at different times in the flowering cycle. and the dry/cure has a lot to do with it.. 

Personal preference...


----------



## solarguy (Jun 19, 2011)

I pull mine when i know they are ready and will get me high. Typically i will take a few plants earlier than the rest, a few later and let a few go longer than the rest...i have never noticed a huge difference to be honest. Only in density and typically the longer it goes the yield improves. The taste is pretty similar most of the time, how fast they dry/cure really determines this....Haven't noticed a huge difference in the potency whether i leave them on a whole lot longer or cure longer either. What i do notice is denser and a better yield, that alone is my reason for letting them go as long as i can.
But yea, don't forget cash flow...if i do not want to spend money and the plants are almost done, i will take one of the plants down early to hold me over until the rest finish just to save a few bucks!


----------



## Phillip J Fry (Jun 19, 2011)

personally i let them go until the overall plant has the "i am done appearance", always seems to work for me.


----------



## degausspress (Jan 30, 2012)

Just like people used to spend so much time focusing on white hair percentages, I feel this whole debate is a red herring. However, using my method there are never any amber crystals, it is usually 1/2 clear and 1/2 milky.

In my opinion, it looks gorgeous with very clouded/amber crystals, but it is certainly past peak THC.
*
For me, the pertinent thing is shape. In other words whether the little atomic clouds have started to 'topple' or not. The crystals that topple over are definitely past peak.*

This is tricky, as certain parts of the plant can finish earlier than others sometimes. However, a quick glance around and you can average out where the plant is at.

In my opinion, many people harvest too late because it looks awesome that way, however, I have not been able to prove it with rigorous THC testing of the same strain and conditions. Based on many a harvest.


----------



## bundee1 (Jan 31, 2012)

what about plant matter? people used to smoke leaves and get baked. What chemicals are in the plant matter of the buds, that get you baked? Why is a hash high way different (at least for me) than a flower high?


----------



## RawBudzski (Jan 31, 2012)

I personally do not want only/pure head high. I judge dankness of weed by how lazy it makes me after, I am all about the body highs & mellowing out, That MAY not be how it works though it is my reality.

Only time I prefer a sativa that makes you UP & energized, is when I am working / got to be active.


----------



## rocknratm (Jan 31, 2012)

honeswt, my best strain comes down a week or so early every time. Because its packed on most its weight, and it tastes strong regardless of the cure, and no one complains about it ever... If I let it go it usually gets the extra glaze over it, so I do that when I can.

One strain I have, regardless of trich color, is poor. Alot, I mean alot, of how good bud is is genetics IMO. Second to that is a healthy plant


----------



## althor (Jan 31, 2012)

Ok someone already mentioned this earlier and its so long now that I skipped, but to me this hits the nail on the head.

At week 7 I look under my microscope. In the spot under my scope, I have exactly 100 trichomes. 70 clear 30 milky. Should I pull now?

Well.

I let it go 1 more week to week 8. Check the exact same spot under the scope, now I have 200 trichomes in that same spot. 130 clear 60 milky 10 amber. If clear is the target, well I just really bumped up the amount of CLEAR, i.e. THC from that same hit. Of course those numbers are just tossed out there, but the point is, I have seen trichomes really start producing the last week or so of flowering, and a leaf go from slightly crystaled to looking like dipped in sugar. 

You do lose 10 to amber, and another 30 to milky but you still gained more clear (thc filled) trichs. Thats why you cant look at is as individual trichomes. When you see the first amber trichome, you have basically finished trichome production and you will have ALOT more clear still ready to be smoked than if you had cut it a week earlier with less clear.


----------



## jojodancer10 (Feb 5, 2012)

You all make very good points. I did a grow that went two weeks over and the high knocked me out. The next grow I cut a week early it was not my best work.I came to the point that I will cut when I see mostly milky to amber.lights out for 48 then cut


----------



## jojodancer10 (Feb 5, 2012)

I never did a grow with co2. This will be my first grow with it. All of my other grows I pulled a pound I hope this co2 is worth it. . 4x4 tent ebb and flow. System with 4x4table. Total number of plants 70. Hope to get 2lbs.I will post pics before. I cut. Keep growing family


----------



## sso (Feb 5, 2012)

i like to let them go till the plants look like shit (sugary mess with all the fanleaves and lot of leaves gone)

you Can smoke the plant in the 6th week (many strains)

but the difference is like between candy and plain sugar.

the best line ive heard?

"if you think they look ready, wait a week or 2"

then of course,

i do like couchlock.

but, frankly, if im smoking an indica, im looking for couchlock 

i could let my sativas go on forever and never get any couchlock.

smoking an indica without an couchlock is like drinking light beer. vaguely pleasant taste but pointless in the end.


----------



## skunkish (Feb 5, 2012)

you could always take a cutting or 2 when mostly clear,some more cuttings when mostly cloudy and then finish when mostly amber,dry them all out and see what you think is the best! or does that sound to easy?


----------



## degausspress (Feb 9, 2012)

Here is what I'm talking about, this time it ended up mostly cloudy with a couple amber in there, most of the little trichomes are upright with a swollen globe on the end. Only a few have stretched and bent. This is Grape Ape harvested on 2/7/2012!


----------



## PJ Diaz (Feb 9, 2012)

degausspress said:


> View attachment 2049475
> 
> Here is what I'm talking about, this time it ended up mostly cloudy with a couple amber in there, most of the little trichomes are upright with a swollen globe on the end. Only a few have stretched and bent. This is Grape Ape harvested on 2/7/2012!


yummy!

Interesting find by the OP. I pulled off a branch that was kinda weak and not getting as much light from a Blackberry Kush plant the other day. It was only about 35 days into 12/12 so super early. It is still very resinous though, so I dried the small buds and pulled a few tokes last night. I was amazed how high I got on the premie bud! I thought this is gonna be super uber dank when it's harvested in a couple weeks, but this article gets me thinking as bit.


----------



## kowski (Aug 20, 2016)

Here's another vote, one for earlier rather than later harvesting.

I use it for some pain, but also to keep this old man moving. Exercising. Walking long distances, cycling, lifting at the gym, working in the garden. Early harvest has that stimulating effect, opposite of couch-lock. I harvest based mostly on trichomes, that they are mostly cloudy. Also the look of the plant, and the buds and the pistils, harvesting when most pistils are white but crinkling up, with maybe 20% of them reddish brown.

There is certainly less weight at this point. But here in Oregon we are allowed four plants, and that works for me, even with the weight being less than a late harvest.

I know many folks disagree with this 'early' harvesting, and to make things equal, i disagree with their 'late' harvesting. But I believe we are all tending toward the harvest-time that suits each of us best!

So for example, i'll probably be harvesting this plant in the coming days.


----------



## homebrewer (Aug 20, 2016)

I think even the early-harvesters at high times would tell you it's still way too early to chop.


----------



## Michael Huntherz (Aug 20, 2016)

I just eyeball it, honestly people trip too much. 

But yeah, that last pic is way too early.


----------



## kowski (Aug 20, 2016)

Michael Huntherz said:


> I just eyeball it, honestly people trip too much.
> 
> But yeah, that last pic is way too early.


Thanks for the feedback. It is early. Oh well.


----------



## GreatwhiteNorth (Aug 20, 2016)

I've seen people have issues with paranoia and anxiety associated with either Sativa dom flowers or an early harvest (which produces much of the same effects).
Not sure of the how that all works - just sayin.


----------



## Uberknot (Aug 20, 2016)

So....how much does it continue to change after it's cut and hanging and for how long?

Also does it change more in the dark or in the light?


----------



## kowski (Aug 21, 2016)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> I've seen people have issues with paranoia and anxiety associated with either Sativa dom flowers or an early harvest (which produces much of the same effects).
> Not sure of the how that all works - just sayin.


Paranoia? What? Just because 'they' are REALLY after you does not mean you should not be paranoid! ha


----------



## Uberknot (Aug 21, 2016)

althor said:


> Ok someone already mentioned this earlier and its so long now that I skipped, but to me this hits the nail on the head.
> 
> At week 7 I look under my microscope. In the spot under my scope, I have exactly 100 trichomes. 70 clear 30 milky. Should I pull now?
> 
> ...


"Of course those numbers are just tossed out there"

Yes please take pictures and document.


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Aug 21, 2016)

i don't really care about quoting studies. the guy who wrote the study knows his shit, but it seems a lot of the time that technical facts don't line up that well with the real world.
maybe clear trichs are at their peak in some way, but not their peak desirability.
i'm an impatient bastard and have harvest enough plants early to know its a bad idea, if you don't wait for most if not all of your trichs to be at least cloudy, its just not as good. period. maybe some cannabinoid in the plant is at its prime at that point, but not the ones i'm interested in, apparently.
for most of the strains i've grown, 5-10% brown, at least 80% cloudy is the key point. maybe they are past peak. idgaf if they are, thats when i want them.


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Aug 21, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> So....how much does it continue to change after it's cut and hanging and for how long?
> 
> Also does it change more in the dark or in the light?


there's a thread here where RM3 is arguing with someone, and they're talking about degradation, i believe they were saying 7% the first year of storage, less after that. i'll see if i can find that thread again


----------



## RM3 (Aug 21, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> there's a thread here where RM3 is arguing with someone, and they're talking about degradation, i believe they were saying 7% the first year of storage, less after that. i'll see if i can find that thread again


This thread and all the papers are linked in the free chapter of my book 

http://growhappyplants.com/look.html


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Aug 21, 2016)

RM3 said:


> This thread and all the papers are linked in the free chapter of my book
> 
> http://growhappyplants.com/look.html


speak his name, and he appears


----------



## Uberknot (Aug 21, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> there's a thread here where RM3 is arguing with someone, and they're talking about degradation, i believe they were saying 7% the first year of storage, less after that. i'll see if i can find that thread again



Ok, but when it's still alive cut and hanging wouldn't it continue to change some a little faster than that? From cloudy to amber....etc..


----------



## Roger A. Shrubber (Aug 21, 2016)

i believe so, they seem to stay pretty chemically active for at least a week. i 'm pretty sure from looking at the stuff i've grown as its curing, they do keep maturing for at lest a few days,


----------



## RM3 (Aug 21, 2016)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> i believe so, they seem to stay pretty chemically active for at least a week. i 'm pretty sure from looking at the stuff i've grown as its curing, they do keep maturing for at lest a few days,


a bud that has been jarred for several years, they mostly go all amber 
.


----------



## althor (Aug 21, 2016)

Uberknot said:


> "Of course those numbers are just tossed out there"
> 
> Yes please take pictures and document.


 You must be out of your mind, no thanks.


----------



## Illinois Enema Bandit (Aug 21, 2016)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> New High Times has an article that says Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg has done a study proving that trichromes are most potent when clear-not milky and certainly not amber. Can anyone find this study without spending 3 days reading everything the guy ever wrote?


never heard of the guy but sounds like headache bud,I take mine when they just start showing golden


----------

