# 24 hour light vs. 18/6.



## Sencha (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey everyone. I've made my way through the various stages of research for my first indoor grow. However, I've seen that some people veg under 24 hour light and some under 18/6. Recently I spoke with a person from Cali who has published work in the Cannabible. He said that no MJ plant, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, should ever be given 24 hour light. "It's only wasting electricity." 

Is this true? Thanks in advance.


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## bobbyhopefeild (Apr 27, 2010)

ive tested both 24/0 and 18/6 , and concluded that 24/0 is better for those who have lots of cash to spend, dont care about the cost of electricity and are eager to harvest as FAST as possible
however , 18/6 is a far better cycle as plants, like every other living organism needs a down period to recuperate, plants on 24/0 will grow slightly faster but the plants wont grow as half as fast as they did in the first 18 hours, therefore to an exstent the extra 6 hours is wasted as the extra light is used very inefficiently. go with 18/6


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## Nvr2Stond (Apr 27, 2010)

bobbyhopefeild said:


> ive tested both 24/0 and 18/6 , and concluded that 24/0 is better for those who have lots of cash to spend, dont care about the cost of electricity and are eager to harvest as FAST as possible
> however , 18/6 is a far better cycle as plants, like every other living organism needs a down period to recuperate, plants on 24/0 will grow slightly faster but the plants wont grow as half as fast as they did in the first 18 hours, therefore to an exstent the extra 6 hours is wasted as the extra light is used very inefficiently. go with 18/6


I agree 100% here, I leave my 1000w hps on non stop and love the results.


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## themistocles (Apr 27, 2010)

go with 18/6 all living things need a down period, plus when would you foliar feed if the lights were always on?


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## SSHZ (Apr 27, 2010)

I believe the extra 6 hours gives you about 10%-15% more gowth. Not worth it in my opinion..... And I like to let the room cool down some.


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## Sustainable420 (Apr 27, 2010)

Immitate nature.


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## sixstring2112 (Apr 28, 2010)

24hr is the best way for me to keep things from flowering and bring flowering clones back to veg. also better to keep my temps steady for the little ones.18/6 for mothers works great for me.


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## Mikey Hustle (Apr 28, 2010)

My Kandy Kush flourishes in 24 hr light.

Although, my Sleestack, Blueberry, LA Confidential, Azorian Nightmare, and LSD dont. These strains did better with the 6 hrs of sleep.


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## ink the world (Apr 28, 2010)

I grow perpetual, I had 3 spaces, then got flooded out of our place. Veg room was 18/6, clone space was 24/7

I now have 2 spaces and I use the same space for my clones and vegging. the lights stay on 24 hours so, they do seem to grow a tiny bit quicker.


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## Gardenmaster1 (Apr 28, 2010)

I agree that plants can only process 18 hours of light a day, any more is just wasting electricity.


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## azoo (Apr 28, 2010)

i give mine 15 /9


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## HookdOnChronics (Apr 28, 2010)

If you actuall compare root growth in the 24/0 light schedual and the 18/6 light schedual you will see that you have a MUCH larger root mass in the 18/6 light schedual. And everyone knows what more roots means right..... 

I use to grow 24/0 in veg. Untill I campared the root growth of that plant to one of a plant of the same size and strain in 18/6. Just seeing the difference made up my mind for me... *18/6 ALWAYS!*


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## zigzag6 (Apr 28, 2010)

Seedling - 24/0 
2 or 3 leaf sets - 18/6
Flowering (whenever) - 12/12


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## JLH1983 (Apr 28, 2010)

hey all.... 
anybody experimented with "day" length?? ie. 20/6, or 24/6 for vegg....?

also is it the shortened daylight or extended dark period that triggers flowering?-- ive pondered like a 14/12 or 16/12 to try for flowering... cant find any research on the subject-- or possible pros/cons?


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## HookdOnChronics (Apr 28, 2010)

JLH1983 said:


> 24/6 for vegg....?


Dude.......... What world, or time zone are you living in to get 30 hours in a day? lol


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## bob+marley (Apr 28, 2010)

HookdOnChronics said:


> Dude.......... What world, or time zone are you living in to get 30 hours in a day? lol



hahahahahahahaha
thanks HookdOnChronics for pointing that out. 

i just laughed hysterically. I should really get out from behind this keyboard haha.


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## J.cun.Shallow (Apr 28, 2010)

I heard some guy say that in the flower cycle he leaves lights on for 36 hours and then 12 hour dark


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## Gardenmaster1 (Apr 28, 2010)

JLH1983 said:


> hey all....
> anybody experimented with "day" length?? ie. 20/6, or 24/6 for vegg....?
> 
> also is it the shortened daylight or extended dark period that triggers flowering?-- ive pondered like a 14/12 or 16/12 to try for flowering... cant find any research on the subject-- or possible pros/cons?


I have never tried it my self but I have heard that you can go 18/12 as the best cycle for flowering. It does not change yeild or potency, but a plant that takes 8 weeks to flower will be done in 6 weeks. 

First I am not sure where you could get a timer capable of this, and second think or the poor confused grower trying to figure out when to water, and foliage feed.....


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## CLOSETGROWTH (Apr 28, 2010)

Ive been growing for over a decade, and recently went from 24 to 18.. 

My roots are so much bigger now, and way more healthier foliage.

Growth rate, about the same..

Give your plants a break 

Let em sleep!


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## HookdOnChronics (Apr 29, 2010)

CLOSETGROWTH said:


> Ive been growing for over a decade, and recently went from 24 to 18..
> 
> My roots are so much bigger now, and way more healthier foliage.
> 
> ...


THIS! I did the exact same, as you can see in my earlier post, with the exact same results..... It's true and if your reading this, and your vegging under 24/0, trust me..... It is WELL worth switching to 18/6./ I didn't even realize untill I tried it!...



bob+marley said:


> hahahahahahahaha
> thanks HookdOnChronics for pointing that out.
> 
> i just laughed hysterically. I should really get out from behind this keyboard haha.


Hahaha, I was cracking up to dog! lol


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## joel75 (Apr 29, 2010)

hm. will be trying this next veg.


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## Brick Top (Apr 30, 2010)

Plants perform different numbers of functions to differing degrees depending on it being during hours of light or hours of darkness. During hours of light the plant will take in as much light to use to create energy as it can, but it is limited so the total amount of energy to rely on is also limited. Plants allocate certain amounts of energy for different functions and during hours of daylight they perform most plant functions so each function receives its portion of the overall amount of energy, which can be small. 

During hours of darkness most plant functions are cut back or stopped and the plant operates on stored energy, as if it has rechargeable batteries for night use. To maximize its stored energy use all energy is allocated to a limited number of functions compared to the number of functions occurring during hours of light. Certain plant functions will be allocated increased amounts of energy during hours of darkness above that which they receive during hours of light. There are various reasons behind how what is done and when and in what amount and why but basically the most important plant functions at that stage of growth receive the largest allocation of power nightly. 

Have you ever noticed that over an entire day while you might see growth if you check your plants several times in a day it is not much but it is not uncommon to check them first thing in the morning and think, Holy Hannah, I have to raise my light .. those things grew like weeds last night. A plant is allocated more energy for growth during hours of darkness than they are during hours of light. People tend to believe it is just because they were asleep and not looking often enough to not notice the growth so when it is all seen at once in the morning naturally it seems like a lot. But that is not the biggest part of why. It factors in slightly but it is mostly because that is when plants have the needed energy to grow that fast. 

Another key night function, during flower and more and more important as it goes on, is the rate of THC production increases at night, increased amounts of energy are allocated to THC production during hours of darkness than during hours of light. Put very basically THC works like sunscreen within the heads of THC producing trichomes. It protects the delicate inner workings of the trichome-head. That means that while some THC is produced during the day, due to low energy allocation there is a net loss of THC for the day, more is degraded by light rays than is created. During hours of darkness energy allocation for THC is a priority and enough THC is made to replace what was lost and then an additional amount and over time you have a slow steady increase it total amount, and then you just have to pick the right time to chop and you&#8217;re in like Flynn. But it is during those hours of darkness when the true slow but steady overall increase of THC actually occurs. 

Speedier/increased root growth has been mentioned, and that as has been said means stronger healthier more vibrant plants and it is another example of what plants do and when and how lighting will effect or alter what they can and will do. 

Plants lived in conditions of light and dark for ages and ages and they pretty much grew accustomed to how to use the different periods to their best advantage, since it was of course they best they had to work with, and they figured things out pretty well for themselves all on their own. Normally when people try to fiddle with certain things like light and dark and amounts of each, once past a certain point they might believe they see a gain, even when one is not there to be seen, but there is almost certainly a loss they are failing to see exists.


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## joel75 (Apr 30, 2010)

Brick Top said:


> Plants lived in conditions of light and dark for ages and ages and they pretty much grew accustomed to how to use the different periods to their best advantage, since it was of course they best they had to work with, and they figured things out pretty well for themselves all on their own. Normally when people try to fiddle with certain things like light and dark and amounts of each, once past a certain point they might believe they see a gain, even when one is not there to be seen, but there is almost certainly a loss they are failing to see exists.


thanks for the info


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## swelchjohn (Apr 30, 2010)

Brick Top said:


> Plants perform different numbers of functions to differing degrees depending on it being during hours of light or hours of darkness. During hours of light the plant will take in as much light to use to create energy as it can, but it is limited so the total amount of energy to rely on is also limited. Plants allocate certain amounts of energy for different functions and during hours of daylight they perform most plant functions so each function receives its portion of the overall amount of energy, which can be small.
> 
> During hours of darkness most plant functions are cut back or stopped and the plant operates on stored energy, as if it has rechargeable batteries for night use. To maximize its stored energy use all energy is allocated to a limited number of functions compared to the number of functions occurring during hours of light. Certain plant functions will be allocated increased amounts of energy during hours of darkness above that which they receive during hours of light. There are various reasons behind how what is done and when and in what amount and why but basically the most important plant functions at that stage of growth receive the largest allocation of power nightly.
> 
> ...


That was an amazing monologue. Thank you. No really,I am not being a smart ass.Chalked full of useful information.


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## Wetdog (Apr 30, 2010)

I do an 18/6 myself, always have.

But, if you're feeling 'wild and crazy', you could give 20/4 a shot.

Have heard it's an excellent compromise, but I'm too lazy to reset my timers. LOL

Wet


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## jdizzle22 (May 1, 2010)

Hey Brick top I gave you rep because that last post of yours was so great! Question though: Based off what you said do you think that harvesting after say 36 or 48 hours of darkness would be beneficial? I know the plant would used its stored energy for more thc and such, would it also eat itself alive to put off as much THC and trichomes as it could before it died of lack of light? Or would one be better off just harvesting before the light comes on after a normal dark period?

PS: do you know about any non 24 hour cycles? Like people who talk about 10 12 10 12 or weird stuff like that? Any thoughts on what say 10/10 would do vs 12/12?


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## Brick Top (May 1, 2010)

jdizzle22 said:


> Hey Brick top I gave you rep because that last post of yours was so great! Question though: Based off what you said do you think that harvesting after say 36 or 48 hours of darkness would be beneficial? I know the plant would used its stored energy for more thc and such, would it also eat itself alive to put off as much THC and trichomes as it could before it died of lack of light? Or would one be better off just harvesting before the light comes on after a normal dark period?
> 
> PS: do you know about any non 24 hour cycles? Like people who talk about 10 12 10 12 or weird stuff like that? Any thoughts on what say 10/10 would do vs 12/12?


While some people have questioned the test results because some years later the group was caught padding some other results, tests, accurate or not I cannot swear, have shown that giving plants 72-hours of total darkness at the end of flower/just prior to harvest can increase levels/amounts of THC in some strains as much as 30%. 

The THC itself is not more potent by volume but supposedly you can have a large increase in volume.

It is only my opinion, since people have questioned the research and as far as I know no one else has tried to duplicate it or disprove it, they just questions it &#8230; but considering how certain light rays and THC react together it would make sense that they should at least in most cases be some increase in overall THC. 

It is the same principal as when you know you will be harvesting tomorrow when your lights turn off tonight you unplug them or flip a switch, if you have then switched, so they do not turn on again tomorrow before you begin your harvest. Or in the case of an outside grower harvesting at first light. 

Either way the idea is to harvest without light rays having a chance to degrade any of the THC that was produced the night before. 

Plants will only continue to perform their functions/live for a fairly short period of time once they are deprived of light but during that time they will continue their hours of darkness functions as much as they can for as long as they can. That would have to at the very least result in maximized levels of THC if not increased levels of THC, possibly as much as the tested/reports 30% increase certain strains developed. Genetics are bound to play anything from a small part to a major part in results but at least to some degree it has to happen. 

Some people that swear outdoor grown pot is better will at times point to the length of the nights and the shortness of the days towards the end of flower and say look at how much more potent they became in the last weeks during the longest nights. They will say because of the extended period of time for THC production at maximum levels with the least amount of THC degrading per 24-hour period due to short days with the light rays striking the plants at lower angles the increased levels of THC late in flower was at least in part due to growing conditions and not only or even mostly plant genetics. 


The same people will sometimes say the reason indoor growers try to stick with light cycles that make use of the longest period of light possible at any stage of growth is because they need to make up for the weakness of indoor lighting in comparison to the sun and think that will go a long way to make up for the difference but end up giving up quality by trying to find it. They think the natural lighting periods should be closer mimicked. I cannot say I agree with that, at least not all of it, but there is some logic to be found in parts of it.

Where I question that belief is if you are working with far less light than the sun supplies cutting the periods of light to more closely duplicate nature you are just giving your plants even less of the lower levels of light. How much of a loss might be the result? The other part is certain light rays so breakdown THC but then growing in conditions with much lower levels of those light rays, as in when growing inside rather than outside, how much less THC is degraded in an average day compared to when grown outside and is there more of a net gain found in one than the other? Will less be degraded so your overall gradual increase results in more or will along with the increased degrading process in outdoor growing will the light says stimulate the trichome heads to further increase THC, and other cannabinoid production, and there will be a larger net gain found there?

If anyone has performed definitive tests I have never read the results so it is sort of an opinion thing right now, so each person believes what they are most comfortable with. 

I tend to believe that a 72-hour period of darkness just prior to harvest of an indoor crop and the longer fall nights and shorter fall days with sun lays striking plants from lower angles both cause an increase in THC production. In some strains the difference might be so slight that it would take the highest tech testing equipment to prove it and on another it might only take one hit of each test group type to make it clear. 

In some cases genetics have a much greater or much lesser impact on the results of some method of growing. It just depends on what something is made up of and in what amounts as to if it will respond the same or better/more, less/worse for any growing method or trick. 

There are a number of differing beliefs about various light cycles but I do not know of any that are out of the norm that have legitimate research behind them backing that the overall final results are better. People attempt various things and their observations tell them they see some positive or some negative and then they either go with it or not. 

It is just what is observable and what is not and what people are unable to test but instead at best can only rely on senses to judge, which can be bent/formed by preconceptions, it is not all that uncommon for people to believe they found positive things that do not really exist and fail to find negative things that do exist.

The most standard indoors light cycle will most consistently provide the best results for the widest range of genetics and is the simplest, of course autoflower strains would add more to discuss, but in general it is the best and that is why it is the most used. 

It is not that I have some problem in attempting to advance the science/art of herb growing through experimentation but I think that is best left for the pros to do and then instruct us on. They have the setups and the resources and if something turns out to be a flop they really aren&#8217;t out much but if we try something and it blows chunks, well a harvest celebration might not be much of a celebration now and then. So we can lose big. 

Something I have said many times is that ever generation thinks that if it did not actually invent sex, drugs and rock & roll they at least perfected it. Something similar happens with each generation of growers. They get some Ralph Kramden super-idea and get all pumped up about it or hear of someone else&#8217;s idea or way of doing things and get all pumped up about it and they mention it in a thread and 30 people respond saying how great of an idea it is and how they will have to try it too.

I normally tend to chuckle because I can remember back to the 70&#8217;s and 80&#8217;s and 90&#8217;s when I tried those things or friends tried those things, or even older growers from the 60&#8217;s and maybe before had told me how they tried those things and in each case where there was no scientific research backing a final decision things were clear enough to say success or failure. 

The successes were copied by virtually everyone but every generation of new growers will reinvent at least some of the failures and then get others whipped up on them and then they try them too &#8230;. and get the same basic poor results as in the 60&#8217;s and 70&#8217;s and 80&#8217;s and 90&#8217;s when the same things were attempted. 

If a majority of skilled growers do something a certain way there is a valid reason behind it. It is because doing whatever it is in that way works the best overall.


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## jdizzle22 (May 1, 2010)

Ok that was a good read with some good sentences! So if I got it right for indoors at least, that going 24-72 hours of darkness before harvest probably isn't worth it with most strains since there is little evidence of the effects of this? And that you don't recommend any kind of light schedule that doesn't run on 24 hour days/cycles?

I've been split on giving them extended darkness before harvest (since I've only read it works with 'white' strains and I have bag seed), if I do end up doing it, I will probably only go for a 36 hour period (turn the light off for good one night, harvest a couple mornings later). Presently I am thinking I won't do it... Who knows...


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## nelsonjacob (May 2, 2010)

i have used all types of lighting times during my veg, i was just trying different things out, i noticed that they grew good for a little while under 24/0, but as time went on they began to look weak. under 18/6 they did well, the growth was not as fast as 24/0 but it did not seem to be stressing the plant. i found that my plants grew really well under 20/4, they grew just as fast as they did under 24 but with no stress


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## Brick Top (Jun 6, 2010)

jdizzle22 said:


> Ok that was a good read with some good sentences! So if I got it right for indoors at least, that going 24-72 hours of darkness before harvest probably isn't worth it with most strains since there is little evidence of the effects of this? And that you don't recommend any kind of light schedule that doesn't run on 24 hour days/cycles?
> 
> I've been split on giving them extended darkness before harvest (since I've only read it works with 'white' strains and I have bag seed), if I do end up doing it, I will probably only go for a 36 hour period (turn the light off for good one night, harvest a couple mornings later). Presently I am thinking I won't do it... Who knows...




"*The Stichting Institute of Medical marijuana* (SIMM), the first company to sell marijuana through the pharmacies of Holland, has been investigating the medical possibilities of cannabis, *together with TNO laboratories and the University of Leiden.* One of their discoveries has been that to keep the ripe plants in the dark before harvesting could increase their potency.

*SIMM&#8217;s growers separated a crop of mature plants, harvested half of them and kept the other half in absolute darkness for 72 hours before cutting and drying. Analysis of the resulting dried buds showed that some varieties had seen an increase of THC of up to 30%, while CBD and CBN remained the same."* 


I have never read what percentage of strains will respond and what percentage of strains will respond as much as 30% so I do not know what sort of gain you might see but for many years some very good growers have finished their plants in 72-hours of darkness, or in some cases less and in some cases more. At some point in time growers discovered that darkness increases THC levels and if nothing else a person should harvest just before first light, if growing outdoors, or if indoors, turn off their timers so the lights do not come on the next day before they get a chance to harvest their plants. 

It only makes sense though. During the day plants multifunction, they perform many tasks at one time. Since a plant's ability to absorb light and create energy is limited plants allocate certain amounts of energy to various functions according to importance. During hours of light THC is broken down by light rays and during hours of darkness the lost THC is replaced and additional is made so there is a slow gradual increase in levels of THC during flower up until harvest. 

During hours of light THC production is allocated less energy than it is during hours of darkness. Both growth and THC production receive more energy during hours of darkness than they do during hours of light. Other less important plant functions are stopped and others that are needed but are less important receive less energy than they would during hours of light. 

People will say that plants "sleep" but plants are 24-hour a day operations. They just do things different during hours of light and darkness. 

So .... what do you have to lose by finishing your plants in at least some extended period of darkness? You do not have the time to finish them so if you can pick up something by using darkness you would not be risking the loss of much if anything at all. Even if the strain is not one that will respond with a 30% increase, if you only end up with a 2% or a 5% or a 10% increase that would be well worth it at this point. If you do not get any increase you would still likely not really lose much if anything at all at this point. 

You want to harvest before your lights come on so your plants should finish in darkness all the time anyway, even if only 12 hours. Since THC production has more energy during hours of darkness I would take advantage of that fact and attempt to make the most of it. 

Are you much of a gambler? If so ... step up to the table and place your bet ............... and remember, "What transpires within the confines of the walls of Sodom, stays within the confines of the walls of Sodom." At my age that seems to fit better than "Remember, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas." The other is more my era.

If you folks are really lucky one day I will tell you all Moses' trick to part the Red Sea. That Moses, he was such a practical joker! Once he toked some good herb there was no stopping the guy.


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## OregonMedGrower (Jun 6, 2010)

I clone 24/7 to this day ,in the past used to veg 24/7 ,then ran into unexplained issues so started vegging under 20/4 and made for much happier plants,and 18/6 works great aswell..

24/7 vegging from my experience can cause undo stress to the plant ..although some people have good luck it ,as a Med grower I veg for longer periods of time ,larger plants with low plant numbers.that may play a role aswell,someone who only veg's for a week or so after rooting could probably never see a problem with 24/7 vegging..but for my situation is unhealthy for the plants

besides rooting under 24/7 ,doing a re-veg on a plant is the only other reason I've found to use 24/7 lighting ,and even a after 2weeks of that I've had the best luck dropping it back to 20/4


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## OregonMedGrower (Jun 6, 2010)

Harvesting lights on/lights off is only a pleasure a personal grower can experience..when your a one man show chopping down multiple pounds of meds ,you have no choice..but personally I have never seen a noticeable difference in the quality of bud harvested lights on/off or sitting in the dark for a couple days 

I would think the drying process would play a WAY bigger role in the finished product,but that's another thread in itself 

lots of good thoughts in here


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## chb444220 (Jun 8, 2010)

ive did grows at both light cycles.. and i deff prefer 18-6.. although i have heard some people say its good to stay on 24-0 for hte 1st week or 2.. but then to switch to 18-6.. never tried that.. i agree that all plants need a rest at some point. an dhave heard that wen the lights r on.. the leaves/buds grow.. and at night... thats wen the roots do the growing.. soo in order to have a healthy root structure.. u must keep the lights off for a little while at least


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## Nemo (Jun 8, 2010)

I'm growing on 24/0 right now with CFL's you don't use nearly as much energy. More light more bud.


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## ImOneBadAssGuy (Jun 8, 2010)

yeah to reiterate; to pop seeds do 24/0. vegging do 20/4 or 18/6 (20/4 imo is better but do what you want)

then 12/12 for flowering. some people might argue to do like 14/10 or 13/11 cause more light(energy) more bud, but your plants are still getting energy(food) from just chillin so you dont have to overcompensate on the lights. plus whacky schedules can hermie a plant.

i guess its all up to the person, do what fits you best, smoke that herb


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## MedicalMystery (Jun 8, 2010)

Personally I have found that leaving the lights on all the time just isn't worth it. For me, it raises the hermaphrodite rate and the extra little bit of growth you might gain can be overcome with some tactical pruning. 18/6 also provides a little bit of a buffer in that if you lose power on a 24 hour schedule you get darkness that could really throw off your plants. If you lose power on an 18/6 then there is a 25% chance it will happen at night and if the lights go out an extra hour or two early or stay off for an hour or two longer then you probably won't see any ill effects. That means you have a ten hour window to lose power and not suffer as horribly as you might otherwise. The power bill is another issue. For small ops it's not a big deal, but when you are already trying to manage a warehouse with 100k watt hours daily, shaving off an extra thousand dollars from your veg room starts to sound like a really good idea. I'm not trying to bash anybody's system or say anyone is wrong. Both ways work and arguments can be made for either side. These are just my thoughts and opinions, and in my opinion, I'd rather keep the thousand dollars every month and prune a little more.


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## Bangaman (Apr 17, 2016)

I would like to clarify all the urban legends and old lady tales about 24/0 versus including some dark periods in your grow.

I will keep this simple because many come to these forums for guidance.

First off, For all beginners, the sole practical differences between 24/0 versus 18/6 are time and money. and if you are like me, time is money. I run 4 1000 watt lamps 2 in 2 8x 8 rooms and each increase my electric bill by $50. I do not run AC, but each lamp has its dedicated cooling fan and exhaust fan circuit. I run a humidifier hooked to the humidity port of the Environmental Controller in each room.

I journal each crop from seed to harvest. i measure height (growth rate) of each plant every 3 days(or watering) until i begin LST. There is on average 25% - 35% faster growth with 24/0 light than 18/6 depending on Sativa dominance or Indica dominance in the plant genetics. With 24/0, I shave my time to harvest by 25-30%. that is, i harvest 2-3 weeks quicker. Do the math and compare what you are really spending with the daily savings in 6 hours of darkness versus the savings at zero darkness. At 18/6 your overall electric bill is higher per crop. You spend more time on each crop (what do you consider your hourly wage?). And then there is the opportunity cost that comes with not having the product ready "in time"

Now for the science: on earth we have 3 major types of plants based on how they "cook" or "fix" Carbon(that means separate Carbon from CO2 and make sugar). They are C3 carbon fixation plants like Cannabis and C4 carbon fixation plants like corn, sugar cane and crab grass. Then there are Crassulacean Acid Metabolism (CAM) plants like cactus .

C3 fixation (C3 plants) thrive in areas where sunlight intensity is moderate, temperatures are moderate, carbon dioxide concentrations are moderate and groundwater is plentiful. The C3 plants can be considered Plant 1.0 compared to C4 plants. they (C3 plants) predate the C4 plants on the evolutionary scale. In dry areas, C3 plants shut their stomata to reduce water loss, but this stops CO2 from entering the leaves

Also we must clarify a common misconception in early academia (high school and freshman botany), that the ‘‘dark reactions’’ of the Calvin cycle (photosynthesis) actually occur in the dark. Truly it is called "dark reaction" because it takes place independent of the "immediate" presence of light energy. But because several enzymes in the so-called ‘‘dark reactions’’ are actually indirectly dependent on the presence of light for their activity, this "dark reaction" actually takes place 34/7 /365 regardless if it is a C3 or C4 plant and either plant does "feed continuously under uninterrupted light.

This is where c4 plants like sugar cane, corn and crab grass kick ass, they have evolved from c3 plants and have no limit to the intensity of light you throw at them. They simply keep pumping out sugars. Under dry hot conditions C3 plants shut their stomata to reduce water loss, this stops CO2 from entering the leaves to prevent photorespiration. But, this evolutionary advantage of c4 plants comes with an energy sink and that is why C3 plants will always outperform C4 plants if there is a lot of water and sun.

The sole purpose of a 12 hour dark time is to trigger flowering. The apparent growth or stretching you see is the plant using up resources (sugars) made during veg. during this phase the source for resources for other plant functions are reversed (leaves as source of sugars instead of roots) by the plant being in the dark for 12 hours.

NOW THIS IS WHERE MR / MRS SCIENCE TEACHER OR PROFESSOR "CALLED CANCER A DISEASE" instead of a condition because he/she did not know or thought students are not ready for the complex truth:

There is a third group of plants, the Crassulacean Acid Metabolism (CAM) plants, that survive in arid (dry) environments by opening their stomata only in the dark instead of the light, as do C3 and C4 plants. CAM plants only open Stomata at night to collection and fix CO2 in the dark. the stomata in the leaves remain shut during the day to reduce evapotranspiration. Examples are Aloe, Yucca(not to be confused with manihot/cassava), pineapple cactus etc.

by the way, several lab studies show that in cannabis;


The rate of photosynthesis and water use efficiency increased with light intensities at lower temperatures (20-25 °C)68-77F at 55% relative humidity and the maximum rate of photosynthesis in three university studies I came across was between 28-30 °C or 82.4 and 86F and under 1500 μmol of CO2 anything higher resulted in photorespiration (bad).

Nota Bene: In plants such as MJ, during the plant's growth period, usually during the spring or veg phase, storage organs such as the roots are sugar sources and leaves use up the sugars. After the growth period, when the meristems are dormant or when we induce flowering, the leaves become sources of sugar, and storage organs or roots become sinks. Developing seed-bearing organs (such as flowers) are always sinks. (this why it is critical to minimize leaf trimming once you induce flowering. It has not only been shown that via their roots, vascular plants actually absorb sucrose, glucose and fructose via processes of translocation, active transport, phloem loading and unloading. Cells in a sugar source or roots "load" a sieve-tube element by actively transporting solute molecules into it. This causes water to move into the sieve-tube element by osmosis, creating pressure that pushes the sap down the tube. In sugar sinks, cells actively transport solutes out of the sieve-tube elements, producing the exactly opposite effect.. So feedem sugar, molasses are my fave sugar source. Once you trigger flowering and leaves become a sugar source, you can stop feeding sugars via watering and continue via follar spray because the same process takes place in leaves at that time

Happy gardening


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## Dogenzengi (Apr 18, 2016)

OregonMedGrower said:


> Harvesting lights on/lights off is only a pleasure a personal grower can experience..when your a one man show chopping down multiple pounds of meds ,you have no choice..but personally I have never seen a noticeable difference in the quality of bud harvested lights on/off or sitting in the dark for a couple days
> 
> I would think the drying process would play a WAY bigger role in the finished product,but that's another thread in itself
> 
> lots of good thoughts in here


I recently tested the idea of taking a plant just before lights on VS taking a Plant after 4 hours of lights on.
I was flowering 4 MasterKush plants under a 600 watt HPS.
I took 3 just before lights on and 1 like I usually would at the middle of the day.
All 4 were dried and cured exactly the same.
The plants taken at just before lights on were noticeably smoother.
The plant taken during lights on tasted just like every other Masterkush I flowered for the last couple of years.

The difference is on the tongue and the back of the throat, it was a large difference.
I associate the 1 plant with a harsh aftertaste, one that I was used to from the strain.

I thought the harshness was from the strain or from my lack of growing knowledge.

From now on I will harvest my plants just before lights on.
Bless,
DZ


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## Dogenzengi (Apr 18, 2016)

I veg under 18/6, the only advantage I am sure of is starting my lights on at the same time in my veg and my flowering tent.
The plants are a acustomed to waking up at the same time rather than trying to get a plant used to a new light cycle like going from 24/7 to 12/12 which for me takes an extra week to 10 days.

So my plants start to flower faster with the same start time versus when I used to use 24/7 for veg and clones.

I though more was better but in the end the lights off helps with the circadian rhythm of the plant.
Just my .02
Bless,
DZ


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## a mongo frog (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> I would like to clarify all the urban legends and old lady tales about 24/0 versus including some dark periods in your grow.
> 
> I will keep this simple because many come to these forums for guidance.
> 
> ...


Not sure if i read it right, but i assure you no one on this site would even consider harvesting their plants 3 weeks early. like week 6 on a 63 day day strain? I run 24 hours of light in veg and I've never experienced that.


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

We know that the ability to anticipate light/dark cycles gives organisms a fitness advantage. It is common sense that most organisms have the innate ability to measure time. In fact, most organisms us included do not only for instance react to sunrise but, rather, our bodies anticipate the dawn and adjust their biology accordingly.

This is because organisms including plants have environmental time cues, called zeitgebers (German for time givers). These little buggers are "hard-wired" via DNA to the earth's 24 hour rotation and they have the ability to reset the 'clock' as a function of the time of day, position of the sun /angle of light(external or environmental cues, think jet-lag ). For example, If the zeitgebers for light intensity along with a specie specific percent of other zeitgebers read change, the others follow suite after a moment of adjustment. The specie specific percent for plants is relatively low. Therefore you set the plant's rhythms with just length of light intensity


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Not sure if i read it right, but i assure you no one on this site would even consider harvesting their plants 3 weeks early. like week 6 on a 63 day day strain? I run 24 hours of light in veg and I've never experienced that.


Yes you read it wrong. I meant
1) Total time from seed to harvest as a function of target plant size before switching to flower. Unless your cue to switch is the age of the plant in which case would you switch a stunted and unhealthy plant just because it's "breeder" recommended time is up?


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## churchhaze (Apr 19, 2016)

People talk about the energy saved under 18 hour vs 24, but fail to realize that people under 24 hours need less light intensity to get the same amount of DLI.


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> People talk about the energy saved under 18 hour vs 24, but fail to realize that people under 24 hours need less light intensity to get the same amount of DLI.


Totally agree, also, my 1000 Watts cost $50 a month each to operate, about $1.67 a day (30 day cycle), or $0.069 an hour. If you I opted for only 6 hours night on an 18/6, I would be saving $0.42 a day, $12.50 a month. The real question is "feeding" the plants 25% less worth a monthly production cost cut of $12.5.

We can look at many other ways to figure this out but it will always boil down to 25% less feeding because being in the dark does nothing for the plant (apart from setting it's flower biological clock). See my posting on biological clock and on the cellular biology of C3 versus c4 versus CAM plants further up in this thread.


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## Olive Drab Green (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Totally agree, also, my 1000 Watts cost $50 a month each to operate, about $1.67 a day (30 day cycle), or $0.069 an hour. If you I opted for only 6 hours night on an 18/6, I would be saving $0.42 a day, $12.50 a month. The real question is "feeding" the plants 25% less worth a monthly production cost cut of $12.5.
> 
> We can look at many other ways to figure this out but it will always boil down to 25% less feeding because being in the dark does nothing for the plant (apart from setting it's flower biological clock). See my posting on biological clock and on the cellular biology of C3 versus c4 versus CAM plants further up in this thread.


.069 is your kWh rating. Other places, it would be much higher. Here, for instance, it's like .08-.11 kWh.


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> .069 is your kWh rating. Other places, it would be much higher. Here, for instance, it's like .08-.11 kWh.


Like I said above,in the end, you are saving 25% by shutting off the lights 25% (6 hours) of the day. No matter the cost per KW per hour, we are back to 25% less feeding as a factor of cost cuts. Is the cost cut worth less feeding? Plants will grow continuously without negative effects if kept at decent feeding condition ranges or even less than optimum feeding conditions ranges (light intensity, availability of water, temperature ranges, humidity ranges, PH ranges and decent nutes) .

All you are achieving by shutting lights off is feeding less and cutting your cost of production by 25%. If that 25% extra cost (under $20 a month) will break you, then you probably should rethink the whole weed growing because there are potentially more hidden and unforeseeable cost that come with growing that are much more than that.


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## Olive Drab Green (Apr 19, 2016)

Light isn't part of feeding, it's part of its figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system. Light causes circulation and is what causes the negative pressure needed to bring the nutrients up into it from the root zone. Think of the light as the exterior heart.


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

Plot a mental Graph, With "Time to Switch to 12/12" is a factor of plant height or plant size i.e. the Y-Axis, and Time Spent Feeding (exposure time to light) in the X-Axis. All other growing factors held constant and knowing that Plants grow continuously under uninterrupted feeding.

Say your target time to switch to 12/12 to trigger flowering is say 1/3 of target genetic height of mature plant. You will see that the Y-Axis Goes up quicker with longer, more exposure to light light.

For those who like Math, DY/DX or the gradient (slope) is steeper with more light exposure, meaning Growth Rate increases or decreases depending on quantity available food, in this case the time exposed to light energy.

Now Plot another graph with Time To reach Target Height in the X-Axis and Monthly electric Bill in the Y-Axis. Because overall KWh Expense on the Y-Axis is directly proportional to Time Spent growing, i.e. your overall KWh expense goes up with time spent growing.

So if you increase your time spent growing, by reducing feeding and therefore reducing your growth rate using a 18/6 light cycle, you will increase your overall KHh Expense.

You save money by feeding 24/hours a day. Unlike C4 Plants like corn that can take an unlimited amount of light intensity and grow Record heights in record time, Hence the saying to grow like corn or something like that, C3 Plants like Cannabis have a light intensity threshold that if you stay under this threshold and do not go too far bellow it, the plant will keep growing uninterrupted with uninterrupted exposure to light. Only CAM plants need an actual "Dark" phase to fix carbon.

Like I said earlier, the actual Dark phase of photosynthesis does not require darkness but takes place without the use of light energy whether the light energy is there or not, the process goes on.

For science buffs, remember the two stages of photosynthesis in C3 plants and the three stages of photosynthesis in C4 plants. Apparently this is not common knowledge that Photosynthesis takes place in two or 3 stages: light-dependent reactions and the Calvin cycle (light-independent reactions). Light-dependent reactions, which take place in the thylakoid membrane, use light energy to make ATP and NADPH. The Calving cycle or light-independent reactions still take place 24/7 365 as long as light is present to replenish the Enzymes for the reactions in the light-independent reactions. The first phase needs light as will go on as long as there is light because. Like I said earlier, the enzymes of the Calvin Cycle need light and therefore by starving the plants by six hours, the plant has to rebuild this enzyme reservoir when the lights come back on. Whereas under uninterrupted light, the Enzyme reservoir for the Calvin Cycle is never depleted.

The difference in C4 plants like corn and why they can take unlimited amounts of light intensities (Watt per square foot) is that they have evolved a second light dependent process that protects the Calvin cycle from the effects of photorespiration which happens if you feed the plants too much light intensity it shuts the stomata and starts respiration instead of the Calvin Cycle. C4 plants do this and also continue to the Calvin Cycle so they cannot suffer photorespiration at high light intensities.

Remember light intensity refers to the Watt per square foot and not the length of exposure to wattage

Happy Gardening!


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Light isn't part of feeding, it's part of its figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system. Light causes circulation and is what causes the negative pressure needed to bring the nutrients up into it from the root zone. Think of the light as the exterior heart.


Awesome! This type of illiterate response is why you should take everything you read on here with a HUGE grain of salt.


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## Olive Drab Green (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Awesome! This type of illiterate response is why you should take everything you read on here with a HUGE grain of salt.


So I have, in fact, been misinformed myself. I think I am just going to go to school for botany. This is all crazy mindfuckage.


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## a mongo frog (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Awesome! This type of illiterate response is why you should take everything you read on here with a HUGE grain of salt.


You shouldn't respond like that. Simply tell the member he/she is wrong and why. Most of us know light plays a huge factor in feeding, some may not so explain why. You obviously have have vast botany education. Don't be a dick about it though.


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> You shouldn't respond like that. Simply tell the member he/she is wrong and why. Most of us know light plays a huge factor in feeding, some may not so explain why. You obviously have have vast botany education. Don't be a dick about it though.


I stand corrected.

In my defense however, you must appreciated the whole thing about

"Light isn't part of feeding, it's part "*figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system. **Light causes circulation and is what causes the negative pressure needed to bring the nutrients up into it from the root zone. **Think of the light as the exterior heart."*

Its a classic, You cannot make that up. There has to be an option to vote a comment as "Best of Rollitop.org"

*Light is part of a Plant's **"figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system *

Dude.... WTF How could I in all good sense pass on that?

In his defense, although not accurate, it is not very inaccurate either. Because light energy does start the process and dictates phloem flow tempo


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## a mongo frog (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Dude.... WTF How could I in all good sense pass on that?


Because you may hurt someones feelings. Then one may cry, then they start having a bad day. Then they get home and the wife starts acting strange...... See how it goes bro? Its just plain awful.


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## Olive Drab Green (Apr 19, 2016)

I 


Bangaman said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> In my defense however, you must appreciated the whole thing about
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand. I just meant light is not food. It helps utilize the food via photosynthesis. Or am I wrong?


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## Olive Drab Green (Apr 19, 2016)

I can take Ranger games. Way too used to that. I'm just asking that if I have misinformation or disinformation and you're gonna spot check me, at least tell me _why_ my information is incorrect so I can store the right information in my head.


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## churchhaze (Apr 19, 2016)

CO2 is the food. Without carbon from the atmosphere, there would be no sugars to eat.


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> I
> 
> I think you misunderstand. I just meant light is not food. It helps utilize the food via photosynthesis. Or am I wrong?


You are very correct. And your "external heart and the pulmonary stuff analogy was correct in "context" to the subject. It was just very colorful. Hence my suggestion to the "big *grain*" of salt. The same Colors can be interpreted differently and you were very colorful.

I loved it and it will be my go-to "watered" down description of photosynthesis for a while


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## Olive Drab Green (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> You are very correct. And your "external heart and the pulmonary stuff analogy was correct in "context" to the subject. It was just very colorful. Hence my suggestion to the "big *grain*" of salt. The same Colors can be interpreted differently and you were very colorful.
> 
> I loved it and it will be my go-to "watered" down description of photosynthesis for a while


Appreciated, thank you.


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## ky man (Apr 19, 2016)

I always heard that plants took in feed and stuff in day time and used it up at night and grew onley at night.I have never grew a plant indoores in my life.I would like to try this comeing winter and just grow 4 plants to start with.I have many friends that grow indoors and they tell me that 18 houres is great and any thing longer is a waist of light.me I don't have a clue.I always woundered it those auto plants would grow better with 24 houres of light but my friends say no..I have always grown outdoors for over 40 years.ky


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

ky man said:


> I always heard that plants took in feed and stuff in day time and used it up at night and grew onley at night.I have never grew a plant indoores in my life.I would like to try this comeing winter and just grow 4 plants to start with.I have many friends that grow indoors and they tell me that 18 houres is great and any thing longer is a waist of light.me I don't have a clue.I always woundered it those auto plants would grow better with 24 houres of light but my friends say no..I have always grown outdoors for over 40 years.ky


Just because everyone thinks something is correct...

You should grow with your plants and use your own research. Up above I went in good detail why dark does nothing for cannabis but sets time to flower. I also gave a crash explanation why some plants do not need dark and grow continuously in the presence of light.

Do not take my word or anyone's but follow the science. There is too much anecdotal wisdom in the grow community most of it wasteful junk layman misinterpretation . The 18/6 and pre flower flushing being 2 big farces that some just do not want to admit they have been setting themselves back all those years so they rather swear the junk wisdom works


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## a mongo frog (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Just because everyone thinks something is correct...
> 
> You should grow with your plants and use your own research. Up above I went in good detail why dark does nothing for cannabis but sets time to flower. I also gave a crash explanation why some plants do not need dark and grow continuously in the presence of light.
> 
> Do not take my word or anyone's but follow the science. There is too much anecdotal wisdom in the grow community most of it wasteful junk layman misinterpretation . The 18/6 and pre flower flushing being 2 big farces that some just do not want to admit they have been setting themselves back all those years so they rather swear the junk wisdom works


What is the pre flower flushing?


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## Resinhound (Apr 19, 2016)

C3 plants don't need darkness..and plants don't sleep.This isn't conjecture it's FACT.I'm so tired of people claiming stupid stuff like "all living things need sleep"...honestly that's some of the stupidest shit ever.If you want to save power then by all means,don't use a 24hour light cycle.If you dont care and want more aggressive growth the go 24/0.Just don't do it because "my plants need sleep" that's just straight up ignorant and stupid.


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## Budzbuddha (Apr 19, 2016)

Anything OVER 13 hours a day will keep it in veg.
But i stick with 18/6 for my autos ....

Flowering i go with 12/12 to start then go to a lower 11/13 then 10/14 for mid to finish .
It is so easy to do ... I have 3 timers on a strip socket , i just plug into the appropriate timer im using and it does its business.


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## Budzbuddha (Apr 19, 2016)

Plants do need dark ... Mother nature runs it that way .... Daytime AND nightime. 
Plants power up during the day and shut down at night. How can that be wrong ?

I dont keep my outside bushes on 24/0 ...


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> What is the pre flower flushing?


Basically it is leaching the grow medium before starting 12/12.


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## Bangaman (Apr 19, 2016)

Budzbuddha said:


> Plants do need dark ... Mother nature runs it that way .... Daytime AND nightime.
> Plants power up during the day and shut down at night. How can that be wrong ?
> 
> I dont keep my outside bushes on 24/0 ...


Science proves they do not all need dark. what you see mother nature do does not always follow lay logic. Her complexities need to be understood through careful experimentation and fact gathering.


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## Budzbuddha (Apr 19, 2016)

There is no experimenting required .... Sun goes up ... Sun goes down. 

Nature is funny that way.


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## a mongo frog (Apr 19, 2016)

Budzbuddha said:


> Plants do need dark ... Mother nature runs it that way .... Daytime AND nightime.
> Plants power up during the day and shut down at night. How can that be wrong ?
> 
> I dont keep my outside bushes on 24/0 ...


I just think when we grow in doors we try to provide the greatest day every day. Basically trying to create the greatest mother nature, better then mother nature.


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## Resinhound (Apr 19, 2016)

Budzbuddha said:


> Plants do need dark ... Mother nature runs it that way .... Daytime AND nightime.
> Plants power up during the day and shut down at night. How can that be wrong ?
> 
> I dont keep my outside bushes on 24/0 ...


Well you are wrong...C3 plants don't NEED darkness....they have merely adapted to cope with it.Again it's FACT that C3 plant don't NEED a dark period and that plants never,ever "sleep".Modern day botany...science... not your bullshit reasoning.

Try reading a book someday.


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## bird mcbride (Apr 19, 2016)

24L/0d for moms and new snips, 18/6 for people that veg before budding, 20/4 for auto's, 12/12 for budding...


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## platt (Apr 19, 2016)

(whatever)*/+4 *for max root elongation in most c3 plants...


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## Skunk Baxter (Apr 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> In his defense, although not accurate, it is not very inaccurate either. Because light energy does start the process and dictates phloem flow tempo


Then why you jumping all over him and ridiculing him?


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## Budzbuddha (Apr 19, 2016)

Opinions are like assholes ... They all stink .

This pretty much sizes up the psuedoscience. The overthinking of shit is amazing. 

* Yes, plants do need darkness to grow*. 

First, in the photosynthesis process itself, there is a reaction known as 'dark reaction' pathway or lately known as 'carbon reaction' pathway where the free energy of ATP and reducing power of NADPH, are used to fix and reduce CO2 to form carbohydrate. This is very important process to release Oxygen into the air. This happens in the dark or at night. 

Secondly, for inducing the plant to initiate flowering process. This phenomena is known as photoperiod, ie based on the ratio of the daylength to night length over 24 hours. Plants reaction to photoperiod can be divided into 4 groups. 

a. Day-neutral plants - the plants has no effect on photoperiod, They will flower when the plant reach physiological maturity. 

b. Short day plants - plants will only flowering when daylength is shorter than nightlength. This group of plants will only flower in late summer or fall or very early spring, when day length is shorter than the night period. e.g. strawberries, potatoes, chrysanthemums etc. 

c. Long day plants - Plant that flower in spring or early summer. eg lettuce, spinach, radish etc. Flower initiation will begin when the daylength is getting longer than the dark period. 

d. Intermediate day plants - These group of plants will grow vegetatively when daylength is either too long or too short. They will only flower when the day length is about 12hrs of daylight and 12 hrs of darkness.

* grabs bong


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## since1991 (Apr 19, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Because you may hurt someones feelings. Then one may cry, then they start having a bad day. Then they get home and the wife starts acting strange...... See how it goes bro? Its just plain awful.


So he goes and smacks the wife....kicks his dog..
And walks about in his yard aimlessly...whaling incredible tears of sadness......dude i hear ya. Yer rite. But your post was so incredibly funny. Iam eating cereal rite now and almost shot a cheerio outy nose. Wow. So frikin funny.


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## Resinhound (Apr 19, 2016)

Again Fact not opinion c3 plants don't need a dark period to complete the Calvin cycle,in c3 plants the ATP cycle runs regardless of darkness...this is WHY they are classified as C3 plants bro.C4 plants DO need a dark period to complete the ATP cycle...this is WHY they are classified as C4 plants.These are not my opinions bro...this is PROVEN science and well known to modern day botany.

If cannabis REQUIRED a dark period to complete the ATP cycle then they wouldn't fucking grow under 24/0 at all.ATP is REQUIRED for life bro,REQUIRED for the creation of energy within the cell.There is proof all over these forums that cannabis CAN AND DOES complete the ATP cycle in the presence of 24 your light.The plant in my avatar is proof you are wrong,it was grown seed to harvest under 24 hour light.

Again try reading a book instead of just copy paste from Google,you might learn something.


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## Resinhound (Apr 19, 2016)

Since you like cut and paste I'll just drop this here for ya...

*C4 plants:* The plants exhibiting _C4 pathway_ are called C4 plants. C4 plants live in hot moist or arid and nonsaline habitats. It occurs in grasses, sugar cane, maize, sorghum,_Amarathus_ and _Atriplex_. * C4 cycle is the alternate pathway of Calvin cycle (C3 cycle) taking place during dark phase of photosynthesis *. In the C4 cycle the first stable compound is a 4 carbon compound, namely_oxaloacetic acid_. Hence it is called C4 cycle. The C4 plants show a specific type of leaf anatomy (Krans anatomy). C4 plants are more efficient in photosynthesis than the C3 plants.

Again bro C3 plants don't require darkness to complete the ATP cycle.95% of plants on earth are classified as c3 plants,they don't NEED a dark cycle for cell respiration...they merely cope with it because they have to.


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## Budzbuddha (Apr 20, 2016)




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## Resinhound (Apr 20, 2016)

Budzbuddha said:


> View attachment 3661340


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## Budzbuddha (Apr 20, 2016)

Got to put the plants to bed , if i dont they get out of their pots and run around the fucking room .


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## churchhaze (Apr 20, 2016)

Budzbuddha said:


> Plants do need dark ....


This is obviously false or people who use 24/0 would have dead plants.


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## bird mcbride (Apr 20, 2016)

The only reason a pot plant needs darkness is to bud. 18/6 and 24/0 will not bud the plant, unless it's an auto. With some strains however there is a possibility of preflower with 18/6 on the moms and I wouldn't want someones nice mother going awry so I have no choice but to say 24/0 on the moms. Pot plants can live for decades under 24/0 but their lifespans become limited when darkness is introduced.


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## ISK (Apr 20, 2016)

Budzbuddha said:


> Anything OVER 13 hours a day will keep it in veg.


I'm currently growing a plant indoors with sunshine and it goes in the dark room for under 11 hours per day, so over 13 hours of light and it remains in the flower mode.


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## RM3 (Apr 20, 2016)

ISK said:


> I'm currently growing a plant indoors with sunshine and it goes in the dark room for under 11 hours per day, so over 13 hours of light and it remains in the flower mode.


I've had plants flower under 14:30 hours of light, there is no etched in stone rule !!!


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## ISK (Apr 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I've had plants flower under 14:30 hours of light, there is no etched in stone rule !!!


totally agree.....I have gone as far as 14/10, good to hear I can push it a bit further


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## since1991 (Apr 20, 2016)

Whats this bidniss about more root growth with a non 24-0 vegetative growth photo period? I ususally run 18-6 especially with seed plants in my veg but rite now i got a bunch of new rooted cuts iam trying to get nice and big faster. 24 on does make for quicker vegged clones....no doubt in that. I do notice this....after about 18 or 20 hoirs or so the young plants do not show positive phototropism anymore. That is clear and plain to see.


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## Bangaman (Apr 20, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Well you are wrong...C3 plants don't NEED darkness....they have merely adapted to cope with it.Again it's FACT that C3 plant don't NEED a dark period and that plants never,ever "sleep".Modern day botany...science... not your bullshit reasoning.
> 
> Try reading a book someday.


The need to include a dark period in the grow regimen is more ceremonial and ritualistic for some. Others attribute human characteristics to Cannabis plants, and speak as if the plants have rights and emotions. Some folks are over zealous about the whole nature thing and they have all these dogmas from antiquity and Tips and tricks from Joe Grow down the street . They think man cannot improve or enhance nature. 

I see people come to my store and pay $1.99 for the same size salt at $0 .59 because one said All Natural Sea Salt. Both chemical Symbol/composition NaCl, and as indistinguishable as Identical strains of DNA.

I've heard people talk of gluten as if it were unhealthy. I've heard people say Miracle Grow all purpose plant food, NPK 24-8-16 bad for cannabis veg the list goes on.


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## Resinhound (Apr 20, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> The need to include a dark period in the grow regimen is more ceremonial and ritualistic for some. Others attribute human characteristics to Cannabis plants, and speak as if the plants have rights and emotions. Some folks are over zealous about the whole nature thing and they have all these dogmas from antiquity and Tips and tricks from Joe Grow down the street . They think man cannot improve or enhance nature.
> 
> I see people come to my store and pay $1.99 for the same size salt at $0 .59 because one said All Natural Sea Salt. Both chemical Symbol/composition NaCl, and as indistinguishable as Identical strains of DNA.
> 
> I've heard people talk of gluten as if it were unhealthy. I've heard people say Miracle Grow all purpose plant food, NPK 24-8-16 bad for cannabis veg the list goes on.


Yes it's ridiculous...plants don't have emotions,they don't sleep...they aren't people.They are biological machines,nothing more,nothing less.And like machines they can be optimized and tuned for greater performance.If people want their machines to run on 7 cylinders...well then,I guess it's on them.


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## since1991 (Apr 21, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> The need to include a dark period in the grow regimen is more ceremonial and ritualistic for some. Others attribute human characteristics to Cannabis plants, and speak as if the plants have rights and emotions. Some folks are over zealous about the whole nature thing and they have all these dogmas from antiquity and Tips and tricks from Joe Grow down the street . They think man cannot improve or enhance nature.
> 
> I see people come to my store and pay $1.99 for the same size salt at $0 .59 because one said All Natural Sea Salt. Both chemical Symbol/composition NaCl, and as indistinguishable as Identical strains of DNA.
> 
> I've heard people talk of gluten as if it were unhealthy. I've heard people say Miracle Grow all purpose plant food, NPK 24-8-16 bad for cannabis veg the list goes on.


Thats not just in the growing community either. Labeling and marketing. ...people do weird shit with their wallet. Even when the truth is plain to see....people will give up that cash if you present something rite


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## VTMi'kmaq (Apr 21, 2016)

Sustainable420 said:


> Immitate nature.


shhhh let em learn thru trial and error lmao!


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## since1991 (Apr 21, 2016)

replicate the best most consistent perfect indoor artificial environment you can. Fuck outdoors. The two in my experience are totally different. Like comparing an acoustic to an electric guitar. Not the same.....at all.


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## since1991 (Apr 21, 2016)

As much as i dont like to say it....indoor weed is TOTALLY different than outdoor. I do both..
religiously. They are leagues apart.


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## old shol4evr (Apr 21, 2016)

Sencha said:


> Hey everyone. I've made my way through the various stages of research for my first indoor grow. However, I've seen that some people veg under 24 hour light and some under 18/6. Recently I spoke with a person from Cali who has published work in the Cannabible. He said that no MJ plant, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, should ever be given 24 hour light. "It's only wasting electricity."
> 
> Is this true? Thanks in advance.


i plant my seeds in half cup of ocean forest,keep in 24 hr light,when i get to the third node,the cups go into 12/12 for 10 to 14 days and show sex,i dont waste time on males,unless i want to breed something special,once they show sex ,they go under 18/6 till flower time,by running 24 hr light schedule the plants are in a rush to get done ,thinking winter is near,promting hormones to act,so no its isnt wasted electricity and very effective for sexing


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## since1991 (Apr 21, 2016)

What hormones are "acting" with 24hour light thinking winter is near? Not to be a dick but what are you saying? There is so much bullshit and bro science with cannabis. And behind all of it is real science. Not just what a grower "thinks" is going on. Thats how religions get started.


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## old shol4evr (Apr 21, 2016)

since1991 said:


> What hormones are "acting" with 24hour light thinking winter is near? Not to be a dick but what are you saying? There is so much bullshit and bro science with cannabis. And behind all of it is real science. Not just what a grower "thinks" is going on. Thats how religions get started.


ok ,if i start my seeds in 24 hrs of light ,in solo cups half full of ocean forest,i bottom feed water only till they get third set of nodes,usally about 2 weeks,in 2 week time the roots are already at bottom of cup and stems begins to thicken,when the roots hit bottom they are just like kids and got the world in there hands and are fooled into thinking they growd,puberty like stage,flip into 12/12 light and bamm they are like wtf,hormones adjust to flower,they show sex and continue into flower,after sexing ,you are fucking with the hormones again by throwing them back to veg,veg them as long as you want and you should no how high you want them to grow and invision them growing twice as big in the flower room,me i usally go 6 weeks or 16inches max height and i flip them,works great give it a try and you will see what im talking about,i think the whole key behind this method is the half cup of ocean forest medium,ive done this in both soil and coco,yep ocean forest transplanted into coco and great runs. hope i explained that a little better,same concept go for breeding ,if you dust that female with the male ,takes no time for her to take and make you some fire,but you are still messing with the hormones ,just threw transaction of producing seeds with the energy going into making them,you can still get a buzz after harvesting beans,but the smoke is no were near the same value of the pheno as far as taste and buzz,if you dig me,all in all im jacking with the hormones to speed up the process of getting any males out of my veg room,unless it is a proper stud


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## Bangaman (Apr 21, 2016)

since1991 said:


> What hormones are "acting" with 24hour light thinking winter is near? Not to be a dick but what are you saying? There is so much bullshit and bro science with cannabis. And behind all of it is real science. Not just what a grower "thinks" is going on. Thats how religions get started.


Spot on, There are no such hormones, Too much bro science in the commun8ty.


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## platt (Apr 21, 2016)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC148934/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11027728
this things are much more interesting, dont get lost fuckers


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## old shol4evr (Apr 21, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Spot on, There are no such hormones, Too much bro science in the commun8ty.


ya okay keep that thought as i harvest 2 to your 1 just from sexing early,and culling males,dont have a clue to science,its a weed dude,tinker around with them for a bit longer and give me a holler back,you should at least try it before you make your decision,no science to soil and organics,you can feed anything just about,but we need all opinions to make things better,you got yours and me mine,if you read everything i wrote ,i just cant understand how you wouldnt think,there isnt a hormone balance,might just be saying it wrong,like i said no science in my closet just excitment,especially creating new strains,give it a try,then decide


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## since1991 (Apr 21, 2016)

Plants produce hormones. No doubting that. I just wanted to know what exactly you were talking about.


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## since1991 (Apr 21, 2016)

Cannabis produces a number of hormones. All with specific jobs. And we can "steer" the plant by providing our own and applying more or less of certain ones. Greenhouse growers have been doing this for years on all kinds of crops. Cannabis produces ones that trigger flowering by a buildup of a certain hormone that responds to long dark cycles. Ones that produce or intiates roots. Ones that trigger branching. Even ones that trigger flower ripening (or delaying it). Learn which ones do what...and apply them on top of what the plants produce themselves and you can make sativas grow more like indicas and vice versa.


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## old shol4evr (Apr 21, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Plants produce hormones. No doubting that. I just wanted to know what exactly you were talking about.


well the half a solo cup of soil is the key i think,when i did what i said before,by the time sexing was done ,when i was transplanting there was hardly any soil at all left in the cup,it had grown such a huge root ball it was lifting it up to almost the top of cup,with that result it proved effective as far as not wasting time and electricity growing males,when i transplant males its because they just look like prime canadits,hey the males got to get some too in this game right. it was 2 weeks into veg when they went into flower and then back to veg10 days later ,they were on 3rd set leaves,and sexed,went 3 more weeks and they went into flower at 14 inches tall. before i would grow some awesome plants and flip the bitches to find boys in there too,so this way im not wasting time.
next time you pop a seed try it it might just sway you to other ways ,like it did me,even if science proved diffrent,i will still go this route,the seedling stage is boring enough,you dig


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## platt (Apr 21, 2016)

well, consider root colonization landmark as a big igniter in the triggering-response scene bro. Nice input, well known in mycology as a igniter or secondary bloom trigger

anyways those four five weeks for sexing fits perfectly with 18/6


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## SPLFreak808 (Apr 21, 2016)

24/0 cfl's if using 2700k
18/6 hid

24/0 with HID is kind of overkill! It doesnt look much different over 18/6 with hid's and its just way to much watering in veg imo. Everyone's got a working method i guess


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## Bangaman (Apr 21, 2016)

old shol4evr said:


> ya okay keep that thought as i harvest 2 to your 1 just from sexing early,and culling males,dont have a clue to science,its a weed dude,tinker around with them for a bit longer and give me a holler back,you should at least try it before you make your decision,no science to soil and organics,you can feed anything just about,but we need all opinions to make things better,you got yours and me mine,if you read everything i wrote ,i just cant understand how you wouldn't think,there isnt a hormone balance,might just be saying it wrong,like i said no science in my closet just excitement,especially creating new strains,give it a try,then decide


Without facts about my grow, it is presumptuous to claim you have more crop per year than I do. I've Been growing long enough for a kid to be born and out of college,and 6 years of Biology studies (Masters), to know I don't need to do all that seeding, sexing and jumping through hoops, old school stuff when my need for speedy crops are met with feminized seeds and a great seed source for all my practical purposes. In fact, my harvest cycle is down packed to a timely crop, I can't handle any faster.

One thing I can guarantee you is that when it comes to plant biology, with no science in your closet, you are navigating an ocean without a compass and though you might "hit land" based on hearsay science and blind luck, your efforts will always be infantile, like a child in a "sandbox"

If fucking around, and puttering with the idea that you are a master Gardner / cannabis Geneticist based on lay science and without cracking a botany / genetics book or reading peer review research on Cannabis Botany and cellular Biology gets you excited, then that's your thing. But forget the notion of your expertise.

Plant science, is almost exhaustive in the 21st century, and BIG BRAINS doing heavy cannabis research as we speak. It would be self defeating to thump your chest without a clue of the science and claim you are good at it or that you even understand it.


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

platt said:


> well, consider root colonization landmark as a big igniter in the triggering-response scene bro. Nice input, well known in mycology as a igniter or secondary bloom trigger
> 
> anyways those four five weeks for sexing fits perfectly with 18/6


Can you explain how " root colonization" by fungi affects phototropism or any other plant physiological triggers?


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## Will Thayer (Apr 22, 2016)

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I thank all of you who have contributed to it. Right or wrong, it is good to hear people's opinions.

24 hour veg has always worked for my seeds and clones. Recent improvements to my garden has been the introduction of COB leds. I can now deliver more photons per watts used compared to my old veg light. 

@Bangaman what is your opinon on the use of infrared "flower initiators" just after lights out? Can you explain the science please.

Cheers,
Will


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

Phytochrome is a photoreceptor, a pigment (enzyme) that plants use to detect light. They are part of the plant's environmental time cues, called zeitgebers (German for time givers). Some Phytochromes are sensitive to light in the red and far-red region of the visible spectrum. Many flowering plants use them to regulate the time of flowering based on the length of day and night (photoperiodism) and to set circadian rhythms, grow toward light etc. They also regulates other responses including the germination of seeds etc. They are found in leaves of most plants.

When it comes to environmental time cues, quantity of stimuli does not always dictate the magnitude / size of response. Now, Phytochromes like other "time keepers" are "hard-wired" via DNA to the earth's 24 hour rotation and they have the ability to reset the 'clock' as a function of the time of day. Plants in a darken room will grow tward a single source of light no matter how small the light and adjust their rythm to this small light.

A single zeitgebers, say a Phytochrome does not act alone to cause flowering, you need a combination of zeitgebers to be triggered and although one of the most important environmental factors affecting flowering time is the daily duration of light, the photoperiod, there are a plethora of zeitgebers that play important roles leading to flowering such as light (intensity) perception, hormone metabolism, signal transduction, and floral meristem specification, all play roles in the regulation of flowering time and are sometimes also referred to as flowering-time zeitgebers.

so the answer to your question, odds are that if you are using the right lights for veg and flower you are covered (HPS bulbs emit light strong at the red/orange end of the spectrum, which promotes flowering. However, HPS lighting may also produce leggy growth unless used together with daylight or a source of metal halide system to inhibit the triggers for meristem elongation.

Can influencing a single timekeeper make or break your yield record? Can gismos emitting the right red light in the right part of the spectrum increase flowering significantly to warrant the cost and trouble? Try it. So far there the jury is out. There has been significant advances in this area Since Phytochromes were discovered in the 20s by by Garner and Allard, but we have yet to see any major Agricultural applications. The concept is marketable, but does it work? Keep us posted if you do it


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

Will Thayer said:


> I have enjoyed reading this thread. I thank all of you who have contributed to it. Right or wrong, it is good to hear people's opinions.
> 
> 24 hour veg has always worked for my seeds and clones. Recent improvements to my garden has been the introduction of COB leds. I can now deliver more photons per watts used compared to my old veg light.
> 
> ...


Phytochrome is a photoreceptor, a pigment (enzyme) that plants use to detect light. They are part of the plant's environmental time cues, called zeitgebers (German for time givers). Some Phytochromes are sensitive to light in the red and far-red region of the visible spectrum. Many flowering plants use them to regulate the time of flowering based on the length of day and night (photoperiodism) and to set circadian rhythms, grow toward light etc. They also regulates other responses including the germination of seeds etc. They are found in leaves of most plants.

When it comes to environmental time cues, quantity of stimuli does not always dictate the magnitude / size of response. Now, Phytochromes like other "time keepers" are "hard-wired" via DNA to the earth's 24 hour rotation and they have the ability to reset the 'clock' as a function of the time of day. Plants in a darken room will grow tward a single source of light no matter how small the light and adjust their rythm to this small light.

A single zeitgebers, say a Phytochrome does not act alone to cause flowering, you need a combination of zeitgebers to be triggered and although one of the most important environmental factors affecting flowering time is the daily duration of light, the photoperiod, there are a plethora of zeitgebers that play important roles leading to flowering such as light (intensity) perception, hormone metabolism, signal transduction, and floral meristem specification, all play roles in the regulation of flowering time and are sometimes also referred to as flowering-time zeitgebers.

so the answer to your question, odds are that if you are using the right lights for veg and flower you are covered (HPS bulbs emit light strong at the red/orange end of the spectrum, which promotes flowering. However, HPS lighting may also produce leggy growth unless used together with daylight or a source of metal halide system to inhibit the triggers for meristem elongation.

Can influencing a single timekeeper make or break your yield record? Can gismos emitting the right red light in the right part of the spectrum increase flowering significantly to warrant the cost and trouble? Try it. So far there the jury is out. There has been significant advances in this area Since Phytochromes were discovered in the 20s by by Garner and Allard, but we have yet to see any major Agricultural applications. The concept is marketable, but does it work? Keep us posted if you do it


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## platt (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Can you explain how " root colonization" by fungi affects phototropism or any other plant physiological triggers?


 It doesnt affect plants phototropism. That bad analogy just takes in account the full colonization & consolidation of a substrate as the first requisite prior to start a bloom phase. Also if a part of this substrate is already colonized by another species (competition relationship) or being inhospitable per se the full colonization thing its sensed/signalled as accompliseed blabla zz zzzz this happens in lower & higher fungi btw and it could help you fightin molds

Can you explain this again pls? cos i'm about to draw that in a t-shirt^


Bangaman said:


> Up above I went in good detail why dark does nothing for cannabis but sets time to flower. I also gave a crash explanation why some plants do not need dark and grow continuously in the presence of light.


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

platt said:


> It doesnt affect plants phototropism. That bad analogy just takes in account the full colonization & consolidation of a substrate as the first requisite prior to start a bloom phase. Also if a part of this substrate is already colonized by another species (competition relationship) or being inhospitable per se the full colonization thing its sensed/signalled as accompliseed blabla zz zzzz this happens in lower & higher fungi btw and it could help you fightin molds
> 
> Can you explain this again pls? cos i'm about to draw that in a t-shirt^


"
For science buffs, remember the two stages of photosynthesis in C3 plants and the three stages of photosynthesis in C4 plants. Apparently this is not common knowledge that Photosynthesis takes place in two or 3 stages: light-dependent reactions and the Calvin cycle (light-independent reactions). Light-dependent reactions, which take place in the thylakoid membrane, use light energy to make ATP and NADPH. The Calving cycle or light-independent reactions still take place 24/7 365 as long as light is present to replenish the Enzymes for the reactions in the light-independent reactions. The first phase needs light as will go on as long as there is light because. Like I said earlier, the enzymes of the Calvin Cycle need light and therefore by starving the plants by six hours, the plant has to rebuild this enzyme reservoir when the lights come back on. Whereas under uninterrupted light, the Enzyme reservoir for the Calvin Cycle is never depleted.

The difference in C4 plants like corn and why they can take unlimited amounts of light intensities (Watt per square foot) is that they have evolved a second light dependent process that protects the Calvin cycle from the effects of photorespiration which happens if you feed the plants too much light intensity it shuts the stomata and starts respiration instead of the Calvin Cycle. C4 plants do this and also continue to the Calvin Cycle so they cannot suffer photorespiration at high light intensities.

Remember light intensity refers to the Watt per square foot and not the length of exposure to wattage"


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## platt (Apr 22, 2016)

That rebuild of the enzyme reservoir vs never depleted doesn't has to be a scary thing m8. If you give plants a couple dark night cycles they will be adjusted from the root tip to the thylakoid. Just double the light intensity and you will get a better plant system/structure in dark cycled plants


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

platt said:


> That rebuild of the enzyme reservoir vs never depleted doesn't has to be a scary thing m8. If you give plants a couple dark night cycles they will be adjusted from the root tip to the thylakoid. Just double the light intensity and you will get a better plant system/structure in dark cycled plants


Any actual science behind this or is this more bro science? Because the actual science says no dark needed for a "a better plant system/structure."

*Photosynthetically Active Radiation*, often abbreviated *PAR*, designates the spectral range (wave band) of solar radiation from 400 to 700 nanometers that photosynthetic organisms are able to use in the process of photosynthesis.The *photosynthetic efficiency* is the fraction of light energy converted into chemical energy during photosynthesis in plants.

So to double your "light power it depends on the type of light you use. Optimal light intensity for C3 plants is about 50-60 watts per square foot depending on the lights used, for 1000 watt HPS lamps give off 110000 (in the 400–700 nm range) anything over will cause photorespiration.

In fact it has been proven that Photosynthesis increases linearly with light intensity but only at low intensities. At higher intensities things fall apart. Above about 10,000 lux or ~100 watts/square meter (10.76 sq feet) the rate no longer increases. Therefore, most plants can only utilize ~10% of full mid-day sunlight intensity. when you say "Just double the light intensity" are we still talking the same thing?

Remember that photosynthesis, 6H2O + 6CO2 + Light energy → C6H12O6 + 6O2. There is a plethora of catalysts (enzymes) that are not mentioned in the equation above but are manufactured by the use of sugar

Lets say you have pure or decent source of light radiation in the 400 to 700 nanometers range,  in adding this light energy you must balance by adding more co2 otherwise it is bust. if you give too much of the right radiation photorespiration kills the plant and it is bust.

Now when you say "Just double the light intensity" what do you mean?


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## platt (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Lets say you have pure or decent source of light radiation in the 400 to 700 nanometers range,  in adding this light energy you must balance by adding more co2 otherwise it is bust. if you give too much of the right radiation photorespiration kills the plant and it is bust.


I agree. Everyone knows photosynthesis net its always optimized at a given par(low or high)+environment. At this point no one is gonna earn a medal^. Plant obviously will try to generate new tissue [with proper new % stomata, cell guards,etc] or reallocate starches whenever you dim up the light.
What i truly don't know is why they adapt slightly better when you introduce dark cycles. My first thoughts point to the rootzone but it looks you are better prepared to answer this.


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## since1991 (Apr 22, 2016)

no shit. Bang....preach it...iam all ears. Your posts are very interesting to me and i understand it. Rare here at riu to get some real insight into how and why plants behave the way they do.


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## Will Thayer (Apr 22, 2016)

@Bangaman, thank you for your answer.

Quite a few are experimenting with far red.
Have a read of this thread and tell me what you think.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-far-red-thread.867665/

Cheers,
Will


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## since1991 (Apr 22, 2016)

Tulip and veggie growers in Holland are experimenting witj far red led lighing as a supplement to sunlight. The go to is double ended P.l. Hortiluz Schraeder fixtures but they are on the cutting edge over there....always have been really. And there is a big tomato greenhouee op in socal amd arizona i believe. Forget the name...but they are running at near 100% efficiency with virtually 0 waste. Solar and wind with all supplemet lamps. And some big machine that recycles waste gas from gennys and dehuey water. Its amazing. Almost net zero waste loss..Real.cutting edge. Its on youtube. Scientists and engineers told them it was impossible. Only one of its kind in America. Besides labor everything is almost all profit.


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

platt said:


> I agree. Everyone knows photosynthesis net its always optimized at a given par(low or high)+environment. At this point no one is gonna earn a medal^. Plant obviously will try to generate new tissue [with proper new % stomata, cell guards,etc] or reallocate starches whenever you dim up the light.
> What i truly don't know is why they adapt slightly better when you introduce dark cycles. My first thoughts point to the rootzone but it looks you are better prepared to answer this.


The why in "why they adapt slightly better when you introduce dark cycles." is there is no experimental proof that plants do better with a dark cycle. The is however overwhelming evidence pointing to the contrary. 

An educated guess of what leads to a perception of plants seeming to " adapt slightly better when you introduce dark cycles" would point to limiting factors of the photosynthetic chemical reaction. 

In my post above I stated: "Remember that photosynthesis, 6H2O + 6CO2 + Light energy → C6H12O6 + 6O2. There is a plethora of catalysts (enzymes) that are not mentioned in the equation above but are manufactured by the use of sugar" 

from the above we identify the following limiting factors
1) 6H2O Water: 
2) CO2 
3) Light energy
4) enzymes (manufactured from nutrients)

Increasing one component of the photosynthesis reaction (equation) will cause a depletion in the others, making them limiting factors. So experiment with nute doses watering and co2 levels to compensate for the longer light period. 

Other limiting factors to take seriously are temperature, PH and humidity. 

Anytime you supplement a part of the equation think of the limiting factors. 

More light energy at 24/0 at 50-60 Watts/sq Meter will need more of everything than at !8/6. To be exact 25% more. 

Supplementing is pointless if you don't think in terms of limiting factors of a chemical reaction. 

According to an interesting peer review study published in the
Physiology Molecular Biology of Plants. 2008 Oct; 14(4): 299–306.
Published online 2009 Feb 26. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550641/

The study on the Effect of different light intensities, temperatures and CO2 concentrations on gas and water vapor exchange characteristics of Cannabis concluded that under controlled humidity (55 ± 5 %)

1 - The rate of photosynthesis and water use efficiency increased with light intensities at lower temperatures (20-25 °C). 68-77F

2- The maximum rate of photosynthesis (was observed at 30 °C or 86F and under 1500 μmol CO2 "and decreased at higher light levels."



I hope this answers the question. 

Happy gardening


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Tulip and veggie growers in Holland are experimenting witj far red led lighing as a supplement to sunlight. The go to is double ended P.l. Hortiluz Schraeder fixtures but they are on the cutting edge over there....always have been really. And there is a big tomato greenhouee op in socal amd arizona i believe. Forget the name...but they are running at near 100% efficiency with virtually 0 waste. Solar and wind with all supplemet lamps. And some big machine that recycles waste gas from gennys and dehuey water. Its amazing. Almost net zero waste loss..Real.cutting edge. Its on youtube. Scientists and engineers told them it was impossible. Only one of its kind in America. Besides labor everything is almost all profit.


@since1991 

Starting with the solar spectrum falling on a leaf,

47% lost due to photons outside the 400–700 nm active range.
30% of the in-band photons are lost due to incomplete absorption or photons hitting components other than chloroplasts
24% of the absorbed photon energy is lost due to degrading short wavelength photons to the 700 nm energy level
68% of the utilized energy is lost in conversion into d-glucose
35–45% of the glucose is consumed by the leaf in the processes of dark and photo respiration
Energy is also lost on growing roots. 

Typical plants (C3 plants) have a net efficiency between 0.1-2%. Sugar cane a c4 plant is as close perfect yielding peak storage efficiencies of ~8%.

if these people in Europe have found a way to bring C3 plant net efficiency from 
0.1- 2% to 100% and beating sugar can a C4 plant and most efficient studied, I wonder why they have not won a Nobel Prize.

Reference:
David Oakley Hall; K. K. Rao; Institute of Biology (1999). Photosynthesis. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-64497-6. Retrieved 3 November 2011.


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

wow this turned into a damn science class,thread started in 2010 and hear 6 yrs later,class is still in,i dont even remember were i started,someone asked if 24 hr of light was a benift for them i answered back i did,again from paper towel to half cup of ocean forset soil,when plant gets 3rd set of nodes,the solo cup goes from 24 hr of light to 12 hrs of light,when the solo cup and plant shows sex,it is then transplanted into 3 gallon pots when the plant gets 14 in tall they go back to flower room and finished out. benifit for me is building stem mass by roots hitting bottom quicker and start filling out,this alone reducing veg time simply because within 3 weeks from paper towel they are sexed and transplanted to final pot,no science no dna test no nothing but fucking with lights to fool them into thinking the season changing on them,thats all,funny you all mention all this book crap and not a single thing mentioned about moon stages,how do you explain that,but can explain a small light leak in your room giving you hermies and shit.cant remember who it was that was growing before i was born and cum on my mama and daddys sheets,but i tell you friend i was there,and if you remember right and as old a experenced as you claim to be ,in the late 60's and early 70's i knew about 4 folks that grew there bud under lights in there homes and it was done with hps street lights they aquired,when us and mexico started spraying paraqute and sent the whole community into lock down,you should remmeber that,down south here everyone turned to acid,so with that i will leave you all thread because a open mind of develoment isnt wanted or needed here,to many old folk stuck in there ways,but thanks for the science class been a while for me,YOU KNOW ME AND MY METHODS IS JUST SHOOTING FROM THE HIP anyway and my harvest and strains ive built and done the work on was just luck,hell think i need to play the lottery,TO ALL OF YOU BLAZE TILL YOUR DAZED AND TAKE ANOTHER HIT FOR ME


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

old shol4evr said:


> wow this turned into a damn science class,thread started in 2010 and hear 6 yrs later,class is still in,i dont even remember were i started,someone asked if 24 hr of light was a benift for them i answered back i did,again from paper towel to half cup of ocean forset soil,when plant gets 3rd set of nodes,the solo cup goes from 24 hr of light to 12 hrs of light,when the solo cup and plant shows sex,it is then transplanted into 3 gallon pots when the plant gets 14 in tall they go back to flower room and finished out. benifit for me is building stem mass by roots hitting bottom quicker and start filling out,this alone reducing veg time simply because within 3 weeks from paper towel they are sexed and transplanted to final pot,no science no dna test no nothing but fucking with lights to fool them into thinking the season changing on them,thats all,funny you all mention all this book crap and not a single thing mentioned about moon stages,how do you explain that,but can explain a small light leak in your room giving you hermies and shit.cant remember who it was that was growing before i was born and cum on my mama and daddys sheets,but i tell you friend i was there,and if you remember right and as old a experenced as you claim to be ,in the late 60's and early 70's i knew about 4 folks that grew there bud under lights in there homes and it was done with hps street lights they aquired,when us and mexico started spraying paraqute and sent the whole community into lock down,you should remmeber that,down south here everyone turned to acid,so with that i will leave you all thread because a open mind of develoment isnt wanted or needed here,to many old folk stuck in there ways,but thanks for the science class been a while for me,YOU KNOW ME AND MY METHODS IS JUST SHOOTING FROM THE HIP anyway and my harvest and strains ive built and done the work on was just luck,hell think i need to play the lottery,TO ALL OF YOU BLAZE TILL YOUR DAZED AND TAKE ANOTHER HIT FOR ME


Moon phases, huh? And Doctors performed and justified Lobotomy and gave patients Arsenic for decades. Heck, we used Led in paint, Asbestos in in everything all these things for eons until science came along. Those doctors and engineers too swore they were correct. But I feel ya, staying in bliss with Joe Grow's advice and Bro Science is more fun for some peeps. Its all good


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## a mongo frog (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Moon phases, huh? And Doctors performed and justified Lobotomy and gave patients Arsenic for decades. Heck, we used Led in paint, Asbestos in in everything all these things for eons until science came along. Those doctors and engineers too swore they were correct. But I feel ya, staying in bliss with Joe Grow's advice and Bro Science is more fun for some peeps. Its all good


Whats bro science?


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Moon phases, huh? And Doctors performed and justified Lobotomy and gave patients Arsenic for decades. Heck, we used Led in paint, Asbestos in in everything all these things for eons until science came along. Those doctors and engineers too swore they were correct. But I feel ya, staying in bliss with Joe Grow's advice and Bro Science is more fun for some peeps. Its all good


i agree with that,but saying open your mind and try it before you make opinion,science is a good thing but if you think about it,folk get so caught up in it,they completly drain there pockets from something some one discovered and the new best thing,right,lights are the big battle these days next would be soil vs coco and so on. you dont believe or even want to believe i can get my shit done and into jars quicker my method ,so you sure wouldnt believe i used to grow this shit outdoors till the late 80's just using chicken shit,straight up truth,science then was a thing to,folk started breeding and crossing shit that smelt like a dead ass skunk on the side the road and been in the sun couple days,science then took from us some very awesome strains and suprem smoke to never have again,i cant even think of the last time i seen a landrace plant,in about 3 more years mine will be landrace p1's if everything goes alright,science doesnt have anything to do it just me working them to get to that point.this is a great world of opinions and if we all said fuck it i will try it before they discard it,wonder how things would be then.
if we could put caps on senate seat just like the presidents have,it would get those old ass minds and thoughts out of the house and open minds would change this world just from fresh minds


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Moon phases, huh? And Doctors performed and justified Lobotomy and gave patients Arsenic for decades. Heck, we used Led in paint, Asbestos in in everything all these things for eons until science came along. Those doctors and engineers too swore they were correct. But I feel ya, staying in bliss with Joe Grow's advice and Bro Science is more fun for some peeps. Its all good


hey think about the wild the plant sways in the hot sun all day,once a month there is a full moon right,well if a simple red light on a extension cord can herm your whole grow,why doesnt it do the same thing in the wild under fullmoon,i have yet have anyone explain anything even close to the science behind that,what if we could replicate that,wouldnt that make the plant feels if it was outdoors,would it make stronger healther plants,just saying folk squawk out sceince in every defense,well science explain this moon face shit


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Whats bro science?


i think he was implying my backwoods way of me growing my own medicine,hey just saying we all have or methods and all are interesting to me,now i can name my madness,hell ya


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Whats bro science?


If a friend, a Bro, says 18/6 boost plant growth because he can vouch for it, thats Bro Science, a method or act with obscure or no actual provable scientific basis is bro science. Hear Say science with anecdotal evidence sometimes based on coincidences and correlations, or the lack of a properly tested control


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## a mongo frog (Apr 22, 2016)

old shol4evr said:


> i think he was implying my backwoods way of me growing my own medicine,hey just saying we all have or methods and all are interesting to me,now i can name my madness,hell ya


I agree, many ways to grow this plant. Have fun friend, i bet your medicine is great!


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## a mongo frog (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> If a friend, a Bro, says 18/6 boost plant growth because he can vouch for it, thats Bro Science, a method or act with obscure or no actual provable scientific basis is bro science. Hear Say science with anecdotal evidence sometimes based on coincidences and correlations, or the lack of a properly tested control


I guess a lot of my growing is bro science then. Not the 18/6 part but many others. If you could show us some of your actual science bud pics that would be awesome!!!! Bro and show us your lab results also, would be super helpful!!!!!


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## Will Thayer (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I agree, many ways to grow this plant. Have fun friend, i bet your medicine is great!


Mongo Frog, you are a very nice person. 

Cheers,
Will


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> If a friend, a Bro, says 18/6 boost plant growth because he can vouch for it, thats Bro Science, a method or act with obscure or no actual provable scientific basis is bro science. Hear Say science with anecdotal evidence sometimes based on coincidences and correlations, or the lack of a properly tested control


hell i like that


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I agree, many ways to grow this plant. Have fun friend, i bet your medicine is great!


im working my strain right now,great fucking sativa buzz for about a hour,gets you motvated to do shit,after a hour it goes to the limbs and no pain at least till the herb wears off,and next day you got to wake and bake from the pain the day before,lmao,so i gotta grow a lot,lol


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## a mongo frog (Apr 22, 2016)

old shol4evr said:


> im working my strain right now,great fucking sativa buzz for about a hour,gets you motvated to do shit,after a hour it goes to the limbs and no pain at least till the herb wears off,and next day you got to wake and bake from the pain the day before,lmao,so i gotta grow a lot,lol


Sounds like your medicine is doing a good job!!!! Sooooooo Bro science or actual scientific science?


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I guess a lot of my growing is bro science then. Not the 18/6 part but many others. If you could show us some of your actual science bud pics that would be awesome!!!! Bro and show us your lab results also, would be super helpful!!!!!


i dont think anyone caught that i run 24 hr till the go in for sexing,my veg room is 18/6 and they go in there in final pots till they get 14in tall,i keep it simple and imagine double stretch when flipped and thats why the 14in mark is my flower time,only thing i do diffrent than others is fuck with the lights just for sexing the rest is same as all when gardening the rest of way


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Sounds like your medicine is doing a good job!!!! Sooooooo Bro science or actual scientific science?


nah i like the bro science better,lmao,im a believer in this,it isnt the plant im building its the soil and bioligy to keep from having to hit them with all that other stuff,i focus on awesome soil and when its dead on the plant does what the soil supports,so bro science because i am always working to keep my soil the best,and feel i do better just from not fighting issues that usally start right there at the pot


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## Will Thayer (Apr 22, 2016)




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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

old shol4evr said:


> hey think about the wild the plant sways in the hot sun all day,once a month there is a full moon right,well if a simple red light on a extension cord can herm your whole grow,why doesnt it do the same thing in the wild under fullmoon,i have yet have anyone explain anything even close to the science behind that,what if we could replicate that,wouldnt that make the plant feels if it was outdoors,would it make stronger healther plants,just saying folk squawk out sceince in every defense,well science explain this moon face shit


My apologies about moonlight. look for peer review publications on the subject you will find plenty.

Indeed there is a time of year when photoperiodic time-measurements correspond approximately to high moonlight intensities. Studies published in National Academy of Sciences publications revealed that this is also the threshold value for synchronization of the circadian cycle and show that enough light from moonlight might disturb time measurement during 12/12. In Furtunately in Cannabis the intensity of the light coming from the moon to the upper surface of the leaf is reduced by circadian leaf movement to values between 5 and 20 per cent (or even less than 5 per cent) of full-moon light intensity. Such a reduction eliminates the disturbing effects of moonlight.

This nocturnal leaf behavior is part of the many roles played by plant's environmental time cues, called zeitgebers. It ndicates that leaf movements have an adaptive value once mentioned by Charles Darwin about survival of the fitest. It also indicates that the behavior of the upper leaf epidermis as a zeitgebers or as a``sense organ for light'' . In the short-day plants unlike Cannabis, a specific photoperiodic phenomenon was found that counteracts the disturbing effect of moonlight. Here light intensities similar to those of moonlight, introduced during the night, promote flowering instead of inhibiting it.

Also moonlight being a reflection of the sun has loses most wavelengths in the useful spectrum for c3 plants. In other words, it is taken care off in the wild.

1) Your extension cord light is much closer than the moon
2) your grow room lights do not go "down" like the sun (gradual changes in intensities till lights out) and there plants do not "read sunset to prepare. just light and dark.

Does that answer it?


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## a mongo frog (Apr 22, 2016)

old shol4evr said:


> i dont think anyone caught that i run 24 hr till the go in for sexing,my veg room is 18/6 and they go in there in final pots till they get 14in tall,i keep it simple and imagine double stretch when flipped and thats why the 14in mark is my flower time,only thing i do diffrent than others is fuck with the lights just for sexing the rest is same as all when gardening the rest of way


Your from the Bay?


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## Will Thayer (Apr 22, 2016)




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## since1991 (Apr 22, 2016)

I always equated bro science to my parents generation that told me when i was a kid to boil the roots to "shoot" thc into the tops. Or hanging drying plants upside down for all the wrong reasons. Lol
Or driving a rusty nail in the stalk for increased potency because of plant stress. There are more modern bro science "classes"....many are posts on grow forums. Lol. Dont get me started on plant "flushing" or de leafing for increased yields. I mean its cool to experiment but to fish around blindly because growers dont understand the actual science behind basic horticulture and botany (iam convinced the words are too big) is another thing all together. And then to post these "findings" on dope growing forums as gospel when its placebo and senses playing tricks on the brain is beyond bullshit. White ash is another one. Uninformed newish growers listen to these yo yos and continue the cycle. And its all complete total utter nonsense.


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## since1991 (Apr 22, 2016)

Can you imagine if actual plant breeding was the majority instead of the minority amongst cannabis growers? How much bullshit would be out there with breeding? Wow thank God most dont do any actual breeding and rely on others for the genetics. We would be in real trouble.


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I guess a lot of my growing is bro science then. Not the 18/6 part but many others. If you could show us some of your actual science bud pics that would be awesome!!!! Bro and show us your lab results also, would be super helpful!!!!!


Oh! that reminds me, we are on the internet. You could post cannabis pics all day and t means nothing to me. talk sense, something I can reference from literature, or replicate personally. I care less for CannaPorn unless you can somehow prove the pic is yours - Impossible on here.


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Can you imagine if actual plant breeding was the majority instead of the minority amongst cannabis growers? How much bullshit would be out there with breeding? Wow thank God most dont do any actual breeding and rely on others for the genetics. We would be in real trouble.


For me Easier money in the grow. Less stess


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## a mongo frog (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Oh! that reminds me, we are on the internet. You could post cannabis pics all day and t means nothing to me. talk sense, something I can reference from literature, or replicate personally. I care less for CannaPorn unless you can somehow prove the pic is yours - Impossible on here.


Your lying and you know it. Everyones pics on here are real and their own.


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Your lying and you know it. Everyones pics on here are real and their own.


No need for name calling. I simply do not see value in CanaPorn. What do your Canna pics teach me besides plant desease


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## Skunk Baxter (Apr 22, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> No need for name calling. I simply do not see value in CanaPorn. What do your Canna pics teach me besides plant desease


Jesus, lighten up, man. He's joking.

Look, you obviously know your shit., but this tends to be a friendly community. There's no need to be so prickly. Relax and take it as it comes - we have all kinds here, and most people who post here are generally happy with the results they get. They like learning more about the subject, but they mostly enjoy doing it the way they do it. Not everyone comes here to get bitch-slapped for not having a sufficiently advanced degree in botany.


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Can you imagine if actual plant breeding was the majority instead of the minority amongst cannabis growers? How much bullshit would be out there with breeding? Wow thank God most dont do any actual breeding and rely on others for the genetics. We would be in real trouble.


i agree with that statement,think we screwed up a lot of wonderful strains in the days,i would really like to smoke some good old plain jane columbine,have tasted some that claim to be ,but doesnt compare at all,i make my own strains ,just for me,im looking to find a great body pain med but want a happy get your ass to work mix in it,the one im working now,is great fucking head high smoke for a hour and then takes control of the limbs and last for 4 hours on me just smoking half a doob a whole jiont will knock your ass out,im looking at a happy medium,god head buzz and numb pain,i got 2 back there now making seeds,hoping on that happy medium,they still got 4 more weeks,mama jedi kush,bushy little fuckers no stretch at all,crossed with bubblegirl massive yeilder,cross of both should be interesting,but ya i feel ya on the seed making thing,i started making my own because i dont like clones and seeds are like fucking gold these days,crazy names and false representation on them,so i make my own,even if they dont give me good yield it was smoke i made and enjoy,and main thing not spending a whole weekend looking for a lid,so anything off them is good for me,lmao


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## old shol4evr (Apr 22, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> Jesus, lighten up, man. He's joking.
> 
> Look, you obviously know your shit., but this tends to be a friendly community. There's no need to be so prickly. Relax and take it as it comes - we have all kinds here, and most people who post here are generally happy with the results they get. They like learning more about the subject, but they mostly enjoy doing it the way they do it. Not everyone comes here to get bitch-slapped for not having a sufficiently advanced degree in botany.


ya i was trying to say that earlier,but just got a thrashing,but hey everone got a right to there own opinion,thats what makes it so interesting


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## Bangaman (Apr 22, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> Jesus, lighten up, man. He's joking.
> 
> Look, you obviously know your shit., but this tends to be a friendly community. There's no need to be so prickly. Relax and take it as it comes - we have all kinds here, and most people who post here are generally happy with the results they get. They like learning more about the subject, but they mostly enjoy doing it the way they do it. Not everyone comes here to get bitch-slapped for not having a sufficiently advanced degree in botany.


Well, I could have gone further in college but I was too busy GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons. I do have to give MJ credit for my Masters, With a BA in Bio and no job prospects or real work experience back in the 90s, I had to stick around academia and keep doing what I had been doing for 4 years, GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons. I came highly recommended for grad school by a few good old professors who had a genuine interest in me sticking around and you know why...TA positions opened up real wide and the rest is history my kids will never know. I should have stuck around for a PhD but that three year summer I got really high and then came the fuckits. So I continued doing what I really learned in college, GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons.


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Apr 23, 2016)

Imma just chime in with my experience I think both work well but I do believe its more about what your environment is like I know when i run 24/7 it tends to have temps fluctuate because at night to morning temps are a solid 72-76 degrees fahrenheit while during the daytime it goes from 72-92 degrees for this reason I leave it on 18/6 also saving a lil helps to but lets say if I had a full blown air conditioner or grow in a basemen id let em go 24/7 because then heat isnt the issue and thatd be worth splurging on in fact i just might have to buy a unit


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> Jesus, lighten up, man. He's joking.
> 
> Look, you obviously know your shit., but this tends to be a friendly community. There's no need to be so prickly. Relax and take it as it comes - we have all kinds here, and most people who post here are generally happy with the results they get. They like learning more about the subject, but they mostly enjoy doing it the way they do it. Not everyone comes here to get bitch-slapped for not having a sufficiently advanced degree in botany.


Skunk said "prickly"....lol. Thats funny and a good word...prickly. Lol. Good one Skunk.


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

old shol4evr said:


> i agree with that statement,think we screwed up a lot of wonderful strains in the days,i would really like to smoke some good old plain jane columbine,have tasted some that claim to be ,but doesnt compare at all,i make my own strains ,just for me,im looking to find a great body pain med but want a happy get your ass to work mix in it,the one im working now,is great fucking head high smoke for a hour and then takes control of the limbs and last for 4 hours on me just smoking half a doob a whole jiont will knock your ass out,im looking at a happy medium,god head buzz and numb pain,i got 2 back there now making seeds,hoping on that happy medium,they still got 4 more weeks,mama jedi kush,bushy little fuckers no stretch at all,crossed with bubblegirl massive yeilder,cross of both should be interesting,but ya i feel ya on the seed making thing,i started making my own because i dont like clones and seeds are like fucking gold these days,crazy names and false representation on them,so i make my own,even if they dont give me good yield it was smoke i made and enjoy,and main thing not spending a whole weekend looking for a lid,so anything off them is good for me,lmao


Hey broseph...if you want a pure body pain better than Norco bullshit try Herijuana. If you pick the rite pheno it is some of the most pain relieving night time opiate like cannabis ibe ever tried. Never grew it but a friend does for Chrons disease. Hes no longer on them poison opiate patches.


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## skunkwreck (Apr 23, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Well, I could have gone further in college but I was too busy GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons. I do have to give MJ credit for my Masters, With a BA in Bio and no job prospects or real work experience back in the 90s, I had to stick around academia and keep doing what I had been doing for 4 years, GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons. I came highly recommended for grad school by a few good old professors who had a genuine interest in me sticking around and you know why...TA positions opened up real wide and the rest is history my kids will never know. I should have stuck around for a PhD but that three year summer I got really high and then came the fuckits. So I continued doing what I really learned in college, GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons.


Damn you went to college and counted Jackson's ? I only finished high school and I count Benjamin's .


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## old shol4evr (Apr 23, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Hey broseph...if you want a pure body pain better than Norco bullshit try Herijuana. If you pick the rite pheno it is some of the most pain relieving night time opiate like cannabis ibe ever tried. Never grew it but a friend does for Chrons disease. Hes no longer on them poison opiate patches.


ive heard of that one ,never tried it though,that purple train wreck is great shit to,but damn you be sinking your ass into a lazy boy,if the body numb would stay there and have a bit more head high would be perfect


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 23, 2016)

I listen to others but believe my own eyes. Scientific proof is nice, but not required for my eyeballs.


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

What ya do is pat attention to the scientific jargon and apply the techniques and methods based on it and see if it works in the real world and your own setup. I been paying attention to how the greenhouse industry does things....and its quite different somewhat to what we "hobbyists" do. I figure the greenhouse crop growers dont fuk around. They cant. They employ methods that work...bottom line. So i pay close attention to what they are up to. Just about everything we do or are doing they have beem doing it. In alot of methods at least. One way iam going to be getting down is using coco coir slabs again. If i can find some that fit my stacks of old dutch libra trays.


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 23, 2016)

since1991 said:


> What ya do is pat attention to the scientific jargon and apply the techniques and methods based on it and see if it works in the real world and your own setup. I been paying attention to how the greenhouse industry does things....and its quite different somewhat to what we "hobbyists" do. I figure the greenhouse crop growers dont fuk around. They cant. They employ methods that work...bottom line. So i pay close attention to what they are up to. Just about everything we do or are doing they have beem doing it. In alot of methods at least. One way iam going to be getting down is using coco coir slabs again. If i can find some that fit my stacks of old dutch libra trays.


Coco slabs are like a box of chocolates...
This can actually work to your advantage after you figure out how they differ. There's a product called "Beats Peat" that is thoroughly rinsed and buffered to a ph of 7. Perfect for soil mixes but sucks for 100% coco grow unless you readjust ph back to 6 ish. Cost = $11
Then there's the el cheapo blocks that are dusty and need to be rinsed multiple times. Ph is perfect for 100% coco grow. Cost = $7.50


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## platt (Apr 23, 2016)

SPLFreak808 said:


> 24/0 cfl's if using 2700k
> 18/6 hid
> 
> 24/0 with HID is kind of overkill! It doesnt look much different over 18/6 with hid's and its just way to much watering in veg imo. Everyone's got a working method i guess


yeah, also we have recipes for disaster. Hid: from 20000lux to 80000 paired with your best ever, simple & handy buffer [outlaw humidity] and you are done with 24/7


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Coco slabs are like a box of chocolates...
> This can actually work to your advantage after you figure out how they differ. There's a product called "Beats Peat" that is thoroughly rinsed and buffered to a ph of 7. Perfect for soil mixes but sucks for 100% coco grow unless you readjust ph back to 6 ish. Cost = $11
> Then there's the el cheapo blocks that are dusty and need to be rinsed multiple times. Ph is perfect for 100% coco grow. Cost = $7.50


Canna sells a regular coir slab besides the Cogr boards. Reapl no different than loose bag or the new canna brick. Its prebuffered. I think they fit the dutch libral trays too for super easy dtw management for me. 10 bucks a slab...but you prolly have to order them as the stores in america dont stock canna coir slabs. No one in this country uses them which i dont understand. Super low clearance. Easy to manage. More root growth. Not to mention if one of the drippers clog they still have 2 or 3 more to keep plants chugging along. Just pop 3 or 4 4"rockwool blocks or small 4" pots of coir with the bottom cut out. Pop a dripper stake near each site. Slit bottom of the slab for drainage....bam. For my low height basemnt the advantages are huge. Almost like beds of coir but you can run seperate veg and bloom rooms and perpetual if you use the trays. Just slide the dutch trays with the slab out the veg room....pop em in the bloom area...plug in the drip stakes and direct the elbows for runoff.


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

Oh another advantage...when i ised to run slabs with rockwool blocks on top....with a little duct tape to tape the "x" slits where the blocks sit on the slabs ....fungus gnats get so pissed from not having spots to lay larvae they kinda just quit sticking around. Big plus.


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## Bangaman (Apr 23, 2016)

skunkwreck said:


> Damn you went to college and counted Jackson's ? I only finished high school and I count Benjamin's .


WOW, Your peeps pay in Benjamins. Well in college I never sold "Benjamin Bags" if there is such a thing, just 1/8ths and 1 ounces so I counted Lots of jacksons


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

Bnejis Jacksons....both of yas like alot of us arw still making coin. Cmon. Take it grip it while we still can. Our time in the sun isnt much longer.


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## Bangaman (Apr 23, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> I listen to others but believe my own eyes. Scientific proof is nice, but not required for my eyeballs.


The thing about your statement is that what you see (the conclusion) is the result of the science (the whole story, the plot, and the main players).

When Joe Grow shows you a picture of his monster plant that he said is a result of changing XYZ to ZYX he made, you are missing ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW factos that the XYZ change did or did not change.

Here is the clincher, without the science you will never know if changing XYZ to ZYX is what actually caused the monster crop or was it thatif changing XYZ to ZYX under HIS CURRENT ARRANGEMENT ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW that did it. Your Q maybe where his A is.

Case in point, Joe Grow typically has 9 ounces per plant on 24/0, Bro tells him to switch to 18/6 for a bigger yield, he has proof in pictures. Joe Grow tries and gets nothing more worth telling. Joe College takes Joe Grow's advice gets a pound more per plant and swears by Bro's science.

Well, actual science proves 18/6 does zilch for c3 and c4 plants. So WTF?

Truth is, if you look closely at Joe College's setup, he most likely did something else that without science he will never know. By this time a new sheriff is in town, the word is out and everyone is doing 18/6 in hopes of getting Joe College's results or better.

Across the growers, their results look like the NY skyline, some huge, some tiny., some medium and some no change. The scientific Truth is hat 18/6 had nothing to do with any results but their individual setups, nute regimens, PH, RH, Temp, CO2, Genetics, wattage/sq foot and the list goes on.

At this point Joe Grow simply thinks he is a bad gardener. Science saves you time & money, increases your yield, and boosts your confidence that you are not guessing results from pictures


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> The thing about your statement is that what you see (the conclusion) is the result of the science (the whole story, the plot, and the main players).
> 
> When Joe Grow shows you a picture of his monster plant that he said is a result of changing XYZ to ZYX he made, you are missing ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW factos that the XYZ change did or did not change.
> 
> ...


Wow. Yeah Bang^^^ this all day this


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## since1991 (Apr 23, 2016)

Bang might be abrasive but u gotta admit. ..hes spot on


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## skunkwreck (Apr 23, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> WOW, Your peeps pay in Benjamins. Well in college I never sold "Benjamin Bags" if there is such a thing, just 1/8ths and 1 ounces so I counted Lots of jacksons


They do if you sell pounds .


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 24, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Well, I could have gone further in college but I was too busy GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons. I do have to give MJ credit for my Masters, With a BA in Bio and no job prospects or real work experience back in the 90s, I had to stick around academia and keep doing what I had been doing for 4 years, GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons. I came highly recommended for grad school by a few good old professors who had a genuine interest in me sticking around and you know why...TA positions opened up real wide and the rest is history my kids will never know. I should have stuck around for a PhD but that three year summer I got really high and then came the fuckits. So I continued doing what I really learned in college, GROWING, SMOKING and counting Jacksons.


I call bullshit. You may have sold weed but I'm not convinced you have ever been a successful grower.


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## platt (Apr 24, 2016)

Yeah after all this swampy presentations, at some extent he may look like a wiki son..anyway he's givin input around lovely things like this 


Bangaman said:


> We know that the ability to anticipate light/dark cycles gives organisms a fitness advantage. It is common sense that most organisms have the innate ability to measure time. In fact, most organisms us included do not only for instance react to sunrise but, rather, our bodies anticipate the dawn and adjust their biology accordingly.




btw thanks riu & bangaman for the syntactic forgiveness

fuckers


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> I call bullshit. You may have sold weed but I'm not convinced you have ever been a successful grower.


Some CannaPorn for you. Here I'm giving some of my younger girls outside rec


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> I call bullshit. You may have sold weed but I'm not convinced you have ever been a successful grower.


In this room I run experiments(trials) with different methods including some bro science I think might make sense. I run 4 rooms at once. By the way, Wiki is good. try it sometimes


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 24, 2016)

Interesting. Didn't you say pics don't mean shit? Maybe it was a different thread.


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 24, 2016)

Got any buds? These are almost finished (except for the two week plant in the center)...


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Interesting. Didn't you say pics don't mean shit? Maybe it was a different thread.


Well, Chunky, I had to respond to you calling me a fake. Its a matter of principle. I took those pics just for you


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## Skunk Baxter (Apr 24, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> In this room I run experiments(trials) with different methods including some bro science I think might make sense. I run 4 rooms at once. By the way, Wiki is good. try it sometimes


OK... so just to make sure where we're at... you make sweeping statements ridiculing both what you call "bro science" and anyone who takes it seriously, bu-u-u-ut.... you have no problem using it yourself when you feel like it.

You ridicule people who post pictures to show what they're doing with their grow, because nobody can prove they really took the pictures, so they're meaningless.... bu-u-u-t..... when people are skeptical of your real world experience, you immediately post pictures to show your grow.

You obviously know a lot about botany, but the more I read of your posts the harder it is to figure out what to pay attention to. A little consistency might help people get a more solid feel for who you are and what you're about. No offense, just sayin'...


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 24, 2016)

If my final product is the result of dumb luck, I'll take it. I may not have a firm grasp on botanical science, but I know my plants & know how to keep them happy.


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## Dr. Who (Apr 24, 2016)

All I got to say is somebody that comes in here and throws opinion on a 6 year old thread that has not seen the light of day for those 6 years.....Why? 

Now you dug up the dead and the original postings still stink! 

Start a new one or counter post a new one......

BTW, Yup, the plant does not "need" a lights out to function and grow...But MANY still choose to use one! They are not wrong and neither are you. 
Personally, I feel the relationship to the plant of the "Light Saturation Point" in C3 plants, and what physical changes occur during a "lights out period" in said plant because of the aforementioned "LSP". Outweigh the gains in 24/0 lighting times outside of the first 4 weeks of the plants life....

But really - Do what works for you!

Forget about 6 year old BULL SHIT that nobody reads any more. 

I understand wanting to set the record straight......But here, the record keeps skipping.....You'll figure out what I and many others mean on that-----soon enough!

PEACE - Bangaman


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> OK... so just to make sure where we're at... you make sweeping statements ridiculing both what you call "bro science" and anyone who takes it seriously, bu-u-u-ut.... you have no problem using it yourself when you feel like it.
> 
> You ridicule people who post pictures to show what they're doing with their grow, because nobody can prove they really took the pictures, so they're meaningless.... bu-u-u-t..... when people are skeptical of your real world experience, you immediately post pictures to show your grow.
> 
> You obviously know a lot about botany, but the more I read of your posts the harder it is to figure out what to pay attention to. A little consistency might help people get a more solid feel for who you are and what you're about. No offense, just sayin'...


Sounds like I hurt you. Do you Need some TLC? Tylenol, maybe? A good joint?


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

No seriously, Some bro Science is not in books but warrants investigation. Eg the concept of arrested development in monster cropping. If I cannot disprove it scientifically, yet it sounds plausible, I investigate


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## MeJuana (Apr 24, 2016)

You guys are way over thinking this shit.. I did a few comparisons of 18/6 and 24/0 but in the end I couldn't see a difference so I chopped my veg light bill down by 25%. I ran 24/0 for the entire first year I really started growing indoors so after the testing I switched to 18/6 but nothing changed in progression. Do a few tests personally if you think it is worth paying 25% more to run those veg lights 24/0 then at least you won't have a nagging feeling anymore


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

There is so much research out there by qualified people for me to jump on bro science without proper investigation


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

MeJuana said:


> You guys are way over thinking this shit.. I did a few comparisons of 18/6 and 24/0 but in the end I couldn't see a difference so I chopped my veg light bill down by 25%. I ran 24/0 for the entire first year I really started growing indoors so after the testing I switched to 18/6 but nothing changed in progression. Do a few tests personally if you think it is worth paying 25% more to run those veg lights 24/0 then at least you won't have a nagging feeling anymore


Interesting, 24/0 chopped my bill down by about 25%. Makes me want to ask, Did you not see faster growth? I did the same and consistently reached target height much quicker with 24/0, this quicker time to "flower size" was my cash savings-not that 6 more kwh daily made that worth of a difference but I like the time savings. Veg longer or shorter


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## bird mcbride (Apr 24, 2016)

Brick Top said:


> Plants perform different numbers of functions to differing degrees depending on it being during hours of light or hours of darkness. During hours of light the plant will take in as much light to use to create energy as it can, but it is limited so the total amount of energy to rely on is also limited. Plants allocate certain amounts of energy for different functions and during hours of daylight they perform most plant functions so each function receives its portion of the overall amount of energy, which can be small.
> 
> During hours of darkness most plant functions are cut back or stopped and the plant operates on stored energy, as if it has rechargeable batteries for night use. To maximize its stored energy use all energy is allocated to a limited number of functions compared to the number of functions occurring during hours of light. Certain plant functions will be allocated increased amounts of energy during hours of darkness above that which they receive during hours of light. There are various reasons behind how what is done and when and in what amount and why but basically the most important plant functions at that stage of growth receive the largest allocation of power nightly.
> 
> ...


In other words the darkness causes the plant(s) to complete their life cycle...like a fish does in a river under the correct environment  Without darkness a so-called female marijuana plant can live indefinitely in the correct environment.


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## Skunk Baxter (Apr 24, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Sounds like I hurt you. Do you Need some TLC? Tylenol, maybe? A good joint?


And there you go again with the snotty, condescending bullshit. It's never very far from the surface with you, is it?

As I said earlier, you obviously know a lot about botany. But I agree with those who say you don't seem to know much about growing, and you sure as hell don't know shit about how to get along with other human beings. I thought at first you might have some things of real value to add here, but frankly you're too much of a self-absorbed dick to make it worth the effort. There are a lot of other people here who have a lot of good information to share and who are actually civil, respectful human beings. It's a far better, and less annoying, use of time to converse with them.


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

bird mcbride said:


> In other words the darkness causes the plant(s) to complete their life cycle...like a fish does in a river under the correct environment  Without darkness a so-called female marijuana plant can live indefinitely in the correct environment.


Plants need to photosynthesize 24/7. But b2cause there is no light at night, they evolved an energy draining process to supply the "power" like the sun. They use Ferredoxins to do this. This is an energy draining process that uses energy that could have been used for say growth. 24/0 spares this energy drain.



When Ferredoxins where first discovered the hype of "needed" sleep was born. But quickly squashed by further research


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 24, 2016)

My unscientific eyeballs can vouch for 24/0. 
Definitely less stretch than 18/6.


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said it in the best lay terms, about sunlight, "it's part of its figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system. Light causes circulation and is what causes the negative pressure needed to bring the nutrients up into it from the root zone. Think of the light as the exterior heart." 

Shut down sun energy and the plant's "figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system" stops.

In the same way humans evolved lungs to breath outside of water, plants evolved Ferredoxins to keep phloem flow in darkness. 

I just love it when people claim "natural harmony, mother nature stuff" because there is no harmony in nature. Mother nature is always trying to kill off living things who evolve to fight back (survival of the fittest). Plants are "happier" under 24/0. Plants want and need light all the time.

The only harmony and constants in nature are gravity and chaos (entropy).


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## Skunk Baxter (Apr 24, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> If my final product is the result of dumb luck, I'll take it. I may not have a firm grasp on botanical science, but I know my plants & know how to keep them happy.


I've kind of got one foot in both camps.

There's a lot more to growing cannabis than botany. It's both an art and a science, and if you treat it exclusively as a science, you'll never learn the art. The more you know about the science, the better you'll understand how to apply the art, but if the science is all you know then you don't know shit about growing.

I think a lot of us who haven't had the education that Bangaman has had, and who have had to acquire the art over the years, have still learned a lot of the same principles, and apply many of those principles in our grows - but we probably don't understand them as deeply as he does, nor do we have the same comprehensive grasp of how all those principles interrelate and work together. We just know what works, and usually have some basic understanding of why it works, but could not explain it in a book.

But we do it because it works. As he said himself, he's perfectly willing to try some of what he calls "bro science" if he thinks it has a basis in fact, and that's not any different from the way most of us approach it. If something sounds somewhat logical, and credible people say that it has worked for them, many of us will give it a try as well - but I think most of us are smart enough to tell the difference between whether some new technique works or does not work. If it works, we may incorporate it (or adapt some modified version of it), and while we may not fully understand why it works, we still get along fine. We all have certain results in mind that we want to achieve - and if something gets us those results we keep doing it, and if it doesn't, we don't bother. I consistently get well over a gram a watt on indoor grows, and I'm happy with that outcome. I don't need to be able to defend my techniques in a doctoral dissertation; that doesn't interest me.

All that matters to me is that I enjoy what I'm doing, and I do. I grow this plant because I absolutely love it - every aspect of it - and I love the results I get in terms of yield, potency, taste, fragrance, and type of high I get, and also because I hope to breed better medicinal strains for some specific conditions that impact someone I care about. I'm doing what I enjoy doing, the way I enjoy doing it. And that's all that matters to me.


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## MeJuana (Apr 24, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Interesting, 24/0 chopped my bill down by about 25%. Makes me want to ask, Did you not see faster growth? I did the same and consistently reached target height much quicker with 24/0, this quicker time to "flower size" was my cash savings-not that 6 more kwh daily made that worth of a difference but I like the time savings. Veg longer or shorter


I didn't think I did see increased growth but now you are making me think I should try a little more scientifically so I can speak with more confidence.


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

Hmmm. See those shadows about knowing how to grow? I am in Plato's cave. I did come here to share, but the resistance to enlightenment and change has made me the enemy. Quite frankly who cares? obviously you are in bliss bathing in dogma. Who am I to want to tell you the world is not flat? I love my Banga and so do you. That is the most important thing here.


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## a mongo frog (Apr 24, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Hmmm. See those shadows about knowing how to grow? I am in Plato's cave. I did come here to share, but the resistance to enlightenment and change has made me the enemy. Quite frankly who cares? obviously you are in bliss bathing in dogma. Who am I to want to tell you the world is not flat? I love my Banga and so do you. That is the most important thing here.


Can you say this in bro science please. Having a hard time understanding your post.


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> I've kind of got one foot in both camps.
> 
> There's a lot more to growing cannabis than botany. It's both an art and a science, and if you treat it exclusively as a science, you'll never learn the art. The more you know about the science, the better you'll understand how to apply the art, but if the science is all you know then you don't know shit about growing.
> 
> ...


I Agree, there needs to be a balance between art and science. I have been practicing Banzai for many years, and belong to several local Banzai groups. I apply allot of the same principles in my cannabis grow.

The art of Banzai is much much older than indoor weed growing and it is to the point where it has completely separated the science behind Banzai and the art of Banzai. one must be good at both. The science of Banzai is carved in stone, the art of Banzai is a life journey.

The art of Banzai is the artistic eye's ability to push the plant's science to it's limit. We all have an artistic fingerprint we can perfect over time.

There is an art in the way you build your grow room or train your plants, but the underlying science is exact.

Because indoor and weed growing in general are relatively new, many are confusing the art with the science.

My Banzai mentor who is also Sushi Chef once told me, "Banzai like carving Fugu, you can master the knife art, but if you do not understand Fugu body...You must understand Fugu body." Fugu fish is lethal if carved by someone who does not understand fish anatomy and physiology and not necessarily in an academic way but understand it nonetheless.

There is no art in mixing nutrients, there is no dogma in gardening, everything has a solid scientific basis. However, a "green thumb" is someone who has an inborn (instinctive) compass to sometimes stumble on the right science. Until Cannabanzai ages enough, we have to weed out "bad green thumb" myths that pollute this fledgling Cannabanzai . It is our duty.


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## Bangaman (Apr 24, 2016)

The good thing about applying Banzai to growing banga is that if you understand the science, you can perfect the art relatively quick because you can have several crops a year, practice makes perfect. Not with Banzai where actions can take years or even decades to show results


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## Will Thayer (Apr 25, 2016)

Hey Bro,
The word bonsai, when translated from the Japanese, becomes "bon," a low-sided pot or tray, and "sai," a planting. Let us not confuse bonsai, as we often do, with "banzai," the word shouted by Japanese soldiers as they launched their suicide attacks on allied emplacements in World War II. One pronunciation denotes peace and tranquility, the other havoc and death.






Bonzai


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## Bangaman (Apr 25, 2016)

Thank you for the correction. It was a typo, I did mean Bonsai. And though introduced to the rest of the world through Japan (during the Japanese occupation of China, yes that recent), Its true origins is China for indoor growing, to much easier transport container-grown plants in addition to having more control over the production of flower and fruit before it became a Japanese hobby. Keep in mind different plants are strongly associated with various ceremonies and customs throughout the Chinese year. It is not uncommon for Chinese to bring a fully potted fruit tree to temple one week and switch it with a blooming tree the following week, both plants fruiting and blooming outside their natural seasons.

There are many many applications Bonsai applications that indoor Cannabis growers are already doing and many more they could apply.


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## Dr. Who (Apr 25, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Plants need to photosynthesize 24/7. But b2cause there is no light at night, they evolved an energy draining process to supply the "power" like the sun. They use Ferredoxins to do this. This is an energy draining process that uses energy that could have been used for say growth. 24/0 spares this energy drain.
> 
> When Ferredoxins where first discovered the hype of "needed" sleep was born. But quickly squashed by further research


This statement you make, is just as wrong as the myth your trying to dispel...Your being obtuse here.

_I don't know what to think of you exactly. _

 You have a good deal of book learn'in. Yet there are gaps in it that too. Not to mention you misspell "Bonsai" in a post basically meant to impress us somehow.

Your challenged to post pics and all you give are small vegging plants - OUTDOORS and no real bud or harvest shots other then excuse's why you don't "feel" that they say anything about how someone grows....I can understand not wanting to post pics as it took me years on here to be able do it.. No harm-No foul......But I still find the excuse as an "odd" one...

I don't know what to say here or how to say it.....While you have what appears to be good book learn'in. I'm having a hard time seeing the overall actual growing skill and time growing under your belt! The amount of years growing "alluded" to are, well, not exactly impressive. At one point you say you carb load your soil with molasses and other "sugar" source's. Then foliar molasses at the end. Molasses does actually so little for a plant, not to mention MOST carbs do not "feed" the plant they feed the Living Bio's in the soil. Molasses IS "Bro Science" for actual plants Dude! Molasses is for brewing AACT bio Teas. You use it like an Agar in a petri dish to grow bacteria! 

Your "too one sided" on the issue here. Not accepting of what others have found in there own experience as being what works better for them.....I agree, science has answers.. And there is a shit ton of "Bro Science" (your term) or hippie Myth as I like to say..We should be simply looking to apply it properly and/or use it as a tool..

On that note. I know a guy on here who has well over 30 years _more_ actual grow experience then you imply. He vegg's for 16/8 and has some fantastic results......I find I have healthier plants with less stress when mine get a lights out.

As I said in a way before. No, Cannabis does not require a lights out time to grow. Yet, I (and MANY others) get better end quality when we do....

I was also hoping you would have commented on my reasoning on my earlier disagreement. I used a "book learn'in" reason to counter your assertation's. You did not.

Now why is that? 

I'm still not sure about you....there's just something I can't put my finger on yet..

STILL


Peace on !!


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## Optic1 (Apr 25, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> This statement you make, is just as wrong as the myth your trying to dispel...Your being obtuse here.
> 
> _I don't know what to think of you exactly. _
> 
> ...


Did you wake up in a bad mood lol.


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## platt (Apr 25, 2016)

^^ was neccesary lol heś just trying to block picky language & an incoming homeround around all mythbust. Mind when we were newcomers^

Please can everyone focuse on the light/darkness cycle? looks like opening an empty fridge 

crap, at least we could make a darkness benefits list. Males also like lists.


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## toaster struedel (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm on the 24/0 side, just seems like better node stacking ( especially on young seedlings)


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## Resinhound (Apr 25, 2016)

platt said:


> ^^ was neccesary lol heś just trying to block picky language & an incoming homeround around all mythbust. Mind when we were newcomers^
> 
> Please can everyone focuse on the light/darkness cycle? looks like opening an empty fridge
> 
> crap, at least we could make a darkness benefits list. Males also like lists.


A darkness benefit list would be really short...
And just be populated by what people THINK are benefits.. In truth the only real benefit is to build ethylene to initiate flowering... If you are growing a species that requires that. I've read some studies that point to darkness 
causing depletion of stored starches. This can be a benefit pre harvest I guess. But the benefits of light far outweigh the benefits of darkness from my research.


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## Dr. Who (Apr 25, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> A darkness benefit list would be really short...
> And just be populated by what people THINK are benefits.. In truth the only real benefit is to build ethylene to initiate flowering... If you are growing a species that requires that. I've read some studies that point to darkness
> causing depletion of stored starches. This can be a benefit pre harvest I guess. But the benefits of light far outweigh the benefits of darkness from my research.


Interesting points.

I disagree.....for the most part. If you can explain correctly why the use of Co2, increases results by as much as 30+ %. Then you have the basis of why I believe in a dark period......I do run clones and seedlings 24/0. But out of solo's, no way! Not at the lighting intensities I'm running! 

As far as depletion of stored starch's. What I would get from such a paper is that;
1: They needed to adjust the various conditions to optimize production/storage of the effected C3 plant.
2: Plants seeing the this are most likely showing effects of the condition that requires a "night" or "lights out period" to actually repair on that cellular level for optimal operation. ALL C3 Plants are effected by this action/reaction..

As far as any benefit in Bloom or "pre harvest". Your are having a lights out to actually "bloom"....

Sure, Cannabis does not, as a C3 plant. "Require" a lights out or darkness period to grow.....That does NOT mean that your actually "optimizing" anything other then time to complete the vegging period. Some random and minor effects can and do result if the grower is doing things right for his plant by 24/0

Yet, in the end. I have found it to be more conductive to follow a more Mmmm,,"natural" approach to get as close to plant "potential" vs. 24/7.....If fact I earlier mentioned someone who runs 16/8.....He does that to have a more accurate circadian rhythm.. I'm close to setting up a 2 area match to his grows. Just to map the idea's he's implementing along those lines for myself......If you don't experiment, you stagnate!

In the long run. I'm not in a hurry. I'm in for the best I can get!

And AGAIN! 24/0 works - do whats right for YOU!


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## churchhaze (Apr 25, 2016)

People who think they save 25% electricity under 18/6 miss the point that they could be using a less powerful veg lamp when it's on 24 hours a day. Under 18/6, the plant has to use starch reserves during the night, and during the day it must use some of its sugars it would have used for growth to produce starch for the next night. Under 24/0, it saturates with starch and then can use all its sugars for growth.

This means you need a more powerful lamp with 18/6 to get the same DLI (daily light integral). I said this a few pages back but it seemed to get brushed over by most readers here.


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## Resinhound (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm sorry I don't see the connection you are trying to make about co2 utilization and a dark period.

As far as circadium rhythms and all that... I guess that kinda falls into the realm of "bro science" if you will.Plants will adapt to their environment as much as possible.


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## Bangaman (Oct 7, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> I've kind of got one foot in both camps.
> 
> There's a lot more to growing cannabis than botany. It's both an art and a science, and if you treat it exclusively as a science, you'll never learn the art. The more you know about the science, the better you'll understand how to apply the art, but if the science is all you know then you don't know shit about growing.
> 
> ...



Saying there is no science in art is a fallacious misconception. Science, is art and art is science. Cannot separate the two. It is like saying, trying to separate a woman's beauty and her physical person. The person is beautiful, the beauty is the result of the science (biology).

So from my beauty analogy you see that Bad Art is identical in DNA to Bad Science, (Instead of saying Ugly Woman, you could say ugly Genes).

Lets take the Art of Basketball, or any sport, and Look at the genetics behind every player's particular artistic skill set and you cannot separate the two, the are one and the the same, Science and art.

Take Michael Jackson . . .for example, that birth mark or mold on his penis was meant, oh wait wrong subject..

Now you maybe thinking Art is Dogma, no no, you want Dogma you go to church. The art of growing Satan's Plant (Cannabis) is scientific indeed, no different than Leonardo Davinci's mathematical equations to perfect Mona Lisa or the chapel ceiling, all based on mathematical precision . . . .science.


Now I am going to freak you out if I say Cannabis is what I call Satan's Plant because it has a mathematical precision. And every good gardener will tell you, there is no luck or guessing in a being a green thumb. It is precise. Like every living thing has a golden ratio. Cannabis happens to have a golden ration of 666 using Big Satan's Inches and Feet, and pounds etc, and a golden ratio of 612 using the metric system., The funny thing about that is that 666, and 612 are the Numbers of the Beast, and 666 using the American measuring system the only country that still uses that system is also nick named the Big Satan.

The study of Plant ratios is called Allometry, and if you really want to begin learning about this plant my friends, follow the 666 or to be precise 0.666 if using inches and pounds and 612 if using metric.

What does this mean? This means everything on Cannabis will have a ratio of 0.666, the closer you are to that ration, in everything you do with this plant, the closer you are to perfection and maximized yields.

No seriously, do not take my word for it, go measure your plant, if the ration of branch from node to node is not 0.666 you plant is really sick or something os off. Measure the battom branch and the one right above it, you should see 0.666 2/3 ratio.

HAHA! You gonna thank me for this one HHHHAAAAAA MWAHHHHHHHHAAAAA loughs SATAN!

Now, perfect cure zone is 0.666 humidity left in the plant that means that the
Perfet dry weight is ater you lose 0.666 of 75% of of the wet trimmed weight because plants are 25% pure dry weight if charred, and 75% water, you take out .666% of the 75% water and that is your perfect mummified bud with all the right moisture left in it and all the stuff has broken down to perfection for the perfect hoppy earthy, flavor of good cannabis, for a dank sticky almost discolored bud that makes your mouth water because you can taste it in your mouth from just smelling it, it is so dank!

And the .666 ratio goes on and on and on. When in doubt with this plant, check your ratios.

Now, my friends, when you have built an internal road map of this plant to the point where your brain processes all the science behind in by one glance at your plant, that is when the science becomes an art because you do this unconsciously. I can glance at a cannabis plant and almost tell you with 99% certitude is something is off. One glance over my plants and I wander towards one of them without thinking or knowing what I am doing but I am in auto mat mode because the science is built into my reasoning.

The science behind the midget is that his geometrical measurements are off, GOOD LORD. But, please be advised, just because your allometric measurements are off does not mean your plant is sick, in fact you can use the knowledge to maximize yield, for instance, root zone ratio is 0.6666 and therefore if your root zone ratio is 6, (Above ground length to root lenth) guess what, your plant is not sick but a supperfreak, like Randy Moss and his arm span (and that magic catch)

So by knowing your ratios you can enhance your yield, we like women with big asses and boobs, well Jennifer Lopez has a piss poor Allometric ratio but good Lord, I divorce my wife for 5 minutes inside that rectum, or to see that face looking up at me.

You think I am Kidding? Chop a full grown plant in half and stick int in flower and see what you get for size bud, because you had a kitchen (root zone) of 3 cooks for every 1 Soldier, and by cutting the plant (abopve ground) in half you have now 3 cooks for every 1 soldier. Your soldier gonna be fight juicy and healthier. IN fact drastic cutting like this makes plants that are 6 times more robust and resistant to pests because that root zone ratio boosts everything else as the plant now feeds supper more. Do this in Hydry and Bowaka!

Not knowing the science makes you do and accept dumb stuff like the religious fools accept DOGMA! Like fools around here saying plants need dark and shittty advice like that, or that 18/6 and fast growth or some other Bro Science stpidity.


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## platt (Oct 7, 2016)

You don't apply stressors yet?
And what did you had for breakfast, bangaman?


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## Skunk Baxter (Oct 7, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Saying there is no science in art is a fallacious misconception. Science, is art and art is science. Cannot separate the two. It is like saying, trying to separate a woman's beauty and her physical person. The person is beautiful, the beauty is the result of the science (biology).
> 
> So from my beauty analogy you see that Bad Art is identical in DNA to Bad Science, (Instead of saying Ugly Woman, you could say ugly Genes).
> 
> ...


Holy fuck.

Y'all gotta switch to decaf, bro.


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## Michiganjesse (Oct 7, 2016)

HookdOnChronics said:


> Dude.......... What world, or time zone are you living in to get 30 hours in a day? lol


With the right timer it can be done but hope you are home at all strange hours throughout your grow as times of lights on are going to change have read some people do crazy stuff like this


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## since1991 (Oct 8, 2016)

I played with all kinds of photoperiods over tue years. Ive figured out that 18-6 for veg and 12-12 for flower gets her done....everytime. For blasting a fast veg and roots for important cuts i MIGHT do a 24 or a 20-4....but its been awhile.


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## Nugachino (Oct 9, 2016)

As it's my first indoor grow. I did 24/0 on the seedlings. And will be switching to 18/6 when they've got their next set of leaves. If I make it to sexing and find I've got a female. Then it'll be switched to 12/12. 

If not. I'm buying some fookin femmed seeds!


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## Bangaman (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. Who said:


> This statement you make, is just as wrong as the myth your trying to dispel...Your being obtuse here.
> 
> _I don't know what to think of you exactly. _
> 
> ...


Now why would you say I want to "Impress" you fellas whoever you are, whereever you are? Now is that not an idiosyncrazy to come on a totally anonymous forum and impress people you don't even know if they are real?

Just because you do something the wrong way and nothing bad or good happen because of it does not mean you are doing it right.

On that note, as I have said before, some people simply hate change or an opinion that comes from somewhere other than their own intelectual deductions no matter how limited their intelect.

On those two notes I think I have covered your comment. Oh as for the typos, "mey he who has novere sinned cast the first stone."


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## Odin* (Oct 19, 2016)

Bangaman said:


> Just because you do something the wrong way and nothing bad or good happen because of it does not mean you are doing it right.
> 
> On that note, as I have said before, some people simply hate change or an opinion that comes from somewhere other than their own intelectual deductions no matter how limited their intelect.


Oh, the irony.

Yes, these plants can SURVIVE in 24 hours of light exposure, but they do not THRIVE. I have already posted the importance of maintaining appropriate light cycles, circadian rhythms, carbon fixation, etc. We are training "Olympic Athletes" (or, at least we all hope to), not trying to get an ill/starving child in a third world country through to the next day.

Yes, the plant can perform SOME of it's light independent processes while still exposed to light, but not all, and not in the same manner that it would in "darkness". The processes performed in the dark are quite different than those in the light. Besides the links provided (in my other posts/threads), we all know this to be true by "experience". If you really want to argue that fact, then please begin by answering this; If the processes performed during the night/darkness can be executed in full during the day, then how do you initiate flowering, as well as maintain it, in a non-auto cannabis plant without night/darkness? 

Since you cannot, then you cannot by any means assert that the cannabis plant completes it's natural processes IN FULL without a period of darkness.


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## since1991 (Oct 19, 2016)

I say why complicate matters. If 24 works for you than why change it up? Iam saying 18-6 works for me..for years. I noticed clomes and seedlings and vegging plants do not show positive photo tropism (plants and leaves praying towards the light) after about 16 to 18 hours or so. My garden anyways. To each his own. I know many a grower that blast 24 hours or 20-4. But myself. ..i stick to what i see and like. 18-6.


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## BobCajun (Oct 23, 2016)

11/1/11/1.


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## Nugachino (Oct 23, 2016)

My lights go off at 9pm and come back on at 4am. The one in the 90w led cabinet is doing better than the one that's outside getting sunlight. Same soil. Same watering and feeding methods. Just that one is outside getting between 12 and 23°c. The other gets between 17 and 31°c.


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## goofy81 (Dec 5, 2016)

Too many pages to read, but has anyone done a side by side of 18/6, 20/4, 24/0 ???


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 5, 2016)

Oliver_Wendell_Douglas said:


> dude really too many pages to read veg 18/6 don't rely on people rely on U I just posted a paper 1 page from a university on why plants sleep .... your welcome


I suspect you don't grow pot. You going around posting these "studies." You then come post them here and give advice.

This is the reason people are giving you a hard time. There is a difference in what's on paper and applying that in the real world. Its the reason I told you to post your own work. People will take you more seriously.

That paper is not entirely correct.

Cannabis does not need a dark period during veg. It is a c3 plant.

It just doesn't need it. Do I run 24/0? No. I don't even run traditional times. I run 18/6 for photos and 19/5 for autos.

I break mine up into blocks. Like 6/2 for photos and 6/1 for autos. I do it because of mid day depression. I have seen faster growth.

I immediately dismiss a paper that compares plants to humans. I prefer a dark period for my plants but is not needed for cannabis during veg. It harms them in no way.

Now quit arguing with "paper" and prove your point with your own work.


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## Odin* (Dec 5, 2016)

since1991 said:


> I played with all kinds of photoperiods over tue years. Ive figured out that 18-6 for veg and 12-12 for flower gets her done....everytime.


No magic or mystery here people. ^This is how it is done (proper). Why is it even in question? (Please do not answer my rhetorical question, your "answer" is incorrect, even before conception).


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## BobCajun (Dec 6, 2016)

That post I wrote up there saying 11/1/11/1 actually didn't work that well. I ended up going back to 6/2/6/2/6/2. Normal 18/6 might be better for the plants, idk. BTW, 24 hour light affects different plants differently. Some develop abnormalities or lower growth and others do fine and grow more. Weed seems to do fine with it. Haven't read anything that said otherwise. Might not be worth the extra power though, probably diminishing returns after a certain point.


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## rkymtnman (Dec 6, 2016)

Odin* said:


> ^This is how it is done (proper).


would love to see scientific (not pseudo science) proof that 18/6 is better than 17/7 and worse than 19/5 for vegging Cannabis.


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## since1991 (Dec 6, 2016)

rkymtnman said:


> would love to see scientific (not pseudo science) proof that 18/6 is better than 17/7 and worse than 19/5 for vegging Cannabis.


I wouldnt. Why try an reinvent the wheel? I get the experimental shit with playing the photoperiod game...but honestly. ..been there done that. Ther are WAY more controllable factors and techniques a grower can employ to get what one wants out of a crop. Like i said..been there. ..done it.


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## BobCajun (Dec 6, 2016)

There was a book by Ed Rosenthal a long time ago that have a graph in it showing the growth response to day length. It went up until it got to 18 and then started sloping down. I don't know where he got it from, apparently somewhere.


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## since1991 (Dec 6, 2016)

Rosenthal and Frank put it down way back in book form. ..and proper as far as iam concerned. Mj is no different than any c3 plant. Basic. Dioecoius annual asside.


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## BobCajun (Dec 6, 2016)

All I could find so far was Ed's "Marijuana Grower's Handbook", in a Word document form (link). It says the following;

"Chapter Twenty-One - Early Growth

Once the seeds germinate, the light is kept on for 18-24 hours a day. Some growers think that there is no significant difference in growth rates between plants growing under 24 hours of light a day (continuous lighting) and those growing under an 18 hour light regimen. In controlled experiments there was a significant dif-ference: the plants get off to a faster start given continuous lighting. Some growers cut the light schedule down to conserve electricity. Plants grown under continuous light which are moved outdoors occasionally experience shock. This may be caused by the in- tense light they receive from the sun combined with the shortened day length. Another popular lighting regimen starts with continuous light. A week after germination the light is cut back one hour so that the regimen consists of 23 hours on and one hour off. The following week the lights are cut back again, to 22 hours of light and 2 of darkness. Each week thereafter, the lights are cut back another hour until the light is on only 12 hours a day."


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## rkymtnman (Dec 6, 2016)

since1991 said:


> I wouldnt. Why try an reinvent the wheel? I get the experimental shit with playing the photoperiod game...but honestly. ..been there done that. Ther are WAY more controllable factors and techniques a grower can employ to get what one wants out of a crop. Like i said..been there. ..done it.


i agree which is why i do 24/0 and 11/13. to each his own. 

just saying there is no fact based science that says 18/6 and 12/12 is/are the "best"


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## BobCajun (Dec 6, 2016)

I use the opposite of your flowering cycle. I use 13/11. I read that 12 or 13 hours produces more potency than 11 or less. Also yield is considerably reduced with 11. I saw one forum post somewhere in which a guy tested his weed grown with I think 10 hours and it was about 2/3 the potency of his 12 hour weed. Might have been 11 but I think it was 10. 13 is working well for me so far. Just started using it a few weeks ago though so can't really say for sure what the results are yet. Just seem to be growing somewhat faster.


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## a mongo frog (Dec 6, 2016)

South Sierra Dude said:


> This.


But doesn't veg still work on 24/0 at all stages of veg?


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## since1991 (Dec 6, 2016)

Who has really ripped the stains they are dealing with? Who has ran them seed 0lants at 18..ran the cuts at 24? What the fuck is there even a question?


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## since1991 (Dec 6, 2016)

I mean..really. What arw we trying to achieve?


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## since1991 (Dec 6, 2016)

If you stick to the general photoperiod of 12-12...give or take a few for "posting reasons "..cmon man


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## since1991 (Dec 6, 2016)

Its a c3 annual. Nothing yer gonna do to change that. Believe me...ive tried all the photoperiod bowshit.


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## since1991 (Dec 6, 2016)

Thank god weed will become fully legal before "they" come up with a photoperiod specific nutrient. Lol


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## RetiredGuerilla (Dec 8, 2016)

Sierra dude nailed it


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## Morriston55 (Jan 2, 2017)

Learned quite a big reading this thread start to finish.

Hope Banagaman continues to post here

I will be running 24/0 my next run during veg but dimming my mH bulb 75%


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## mr. childs (Jan 2, 2017)

Morriston55 said:


> Learned quite a big reading this thread start to finish.
> 
> Hope Banagaman continues to post here
> 
> I will be running 24/0 my next run during veg but dimming my mH bulb 75%


wouldnt dimming the mh 75% be more detrimental to the life of the bulb, than just buying a lower wattage bulb in the same kelvin temperature ?


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## SPLFreak808 (Jan 2, 2017)

This is one thing that can be difficult to test because different species may or may not react depending on its DLI and environment. 

24/0 with 200 watts of CFL's definetly had faster growth then 18/6 but lets be honest, the sunlight through a window will slap those bulbs silly. If my starving ass had to eat a slice of pizza by each individual molecule over a 24 hour period id be pissed lol but its better then starving.

Anyone ever tried vegging with hps thouies at 24/0? At some point my plants will slow its photosynthesis and c02 usage because it can't use all that light. Try it, its possible your plants might wilt for a few hours every day before perking back up, you'll also possibly have more stretched bottom nodes, this is what happens in my room not sure about others


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## since1991 (Jan 3, 2017)

SPLFreak808 said:


> This is one thing that can be difficult to test because different species may or may not react depending on its DLI and environment.
> 
> 24/0 with 200 watts of CFL's definetly had faster growth then 18/6 but lets be honest, the sunlight through a window will slap those bulbs silly. If my starving ass had to eat a slice of pizza by each individual molecule over a 24 hour period id be pissed lol but its better then starving.
> 
> Anyone ever tried vegging with hps thouies at 24/0? At some point my plants will slow its photosynthesis and c02 usage because it can't use all that light. Try it, its possible your plants might wilt for a few hours every day before perking back up, you'll also possibly have more stretched bottom nodes, this is what happens in my room not sure about others


Ive vegged with 1000 watt hps lamps...YEARS ago. Expensive as all get out. Vowed to NEVER do it again...and i havent. I have stucl with 4 foot floro tubes of the t12 (way back) and the t5 variety for a long time. Its damn near the perfect veg lamp for me. Very uniform growth...very linear. That being said...iam fixin to jump into the world of LEC (CMH) lighting and iam buying q couple extra to slap on an old light rail i havent used in years for my veg room. See how they perform. People that have made the switch all say the same thing....t5's kick ass for veg...LEC's just blow up a veg room even more...and faster. I like what iam hearing. Also heard the spectrum in veg really compliments a silica additive. Like REAL strong branches amd thicker very healthy green leaves. And i do have an extra co2 regulator lying around...havent used it since i switched to t5's for veg. I think all three....LEC lamps on a light rail....silica additive (plus a good allround veg base nute) and co2 gas should be the trifecta...the holy trinity. How about you?


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## rkymtnman (Jan 3, 2017)

since1991 said:


> I think all three....LEC lamps on a light rail....silica additive (plus a good allround veg base nute) and co2 gas should be the trifecta...the holy trinity. How about you?


what K LEC are you going to run? if you have the cash, use the 4k for veg and then the 3k for flowering. i went from a good LED (solar storm 400) for veg to a 4K LEC for veg. i went back to the LED for this grow and will have the LEC and LEd for flower. i think the mix of the red and blue of the LED was better for veg IMO

i think a combo of 24/0 veg and silica is great. short nodes from the 24/0 and stronger cells from the Si. win.win.


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## since1991 (Jan 3, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> what K LEC are you going to run? if you have the cash, use the 4k for veg and then the 3k for flowering. i went from a good LED (solar storm 400) for veg to a 4K LEC for veg. i went back to the LED for this grow and will have the LEC and LEd for flower. i think the mix of the red and blue of the LED was better for veg IMO
> 
> i think a combo of 24/0 veg and silica is great. short nodes from the 24/0 and stronger cells from the Si. win.win.


I planned on 2 of them 315 watt lec's from Sun Systems on a light rail in my 6x6 veg tent. And 6 to 9 of them in my flower room...replacing all my Gavita 6/750's. And yes..the 4000 Kelvin for veg and the 3000k for flower. But from what jve read...they both are bad ass for either veg or bloom. Also heard that after 2 years in a 12 -12 flower room...alot.of growers relamp but save the old bulbs for the veg room and they still veg EXCELLENT. Quite the savings...in power (ac too) and in relamping. They sound like the perfect lamp. We will see.


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## since1991 (Jan 3, 2017)

If anyone is using air conditioning to cool an all lec lamp room..would you say about 1100 btu's of cooling per 315 watt lamp sounds about alright?


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## rkymtnman (Jan 3, 2017)

since1991 said:


> I planned on 2 of them 315 watt lec's from Sun Systems on a light rail in my 6x6 veg tent. And 6 to 9 of them in my flower room...replacing all my Gavita 6/750's. And yes..the 4000 Kelvin for veg and the 3000k for flower. But from what jve read...they both are bad ass for either veg or bloom. Also heard that after 2 years in a 12 -12 flower room...alot.of growers relamp but save the old bulbs for the veg room and they still veg EXCELLENT. Quite the savings...in power (ac too) and in relamping. They sound like the perfect lamp. We will see.


not sure if they are perfect but they are way ahead of hps/mh. one 315 wasnt quite enough for 12 sq ft which is why i decided to run both the lec/led for my setup. but yeah, i got my lec kit for 200 last year. should have picked up some extras. 

how did you like the gavita 750s? i almost went that way instead of lec. i think i would have had trouble trying to cool it without going A/C. right now with the lec/led combo, i can keep it at 75 with just running an exhaust fan occasionally.


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## since1991 (Jan 3, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> not sure if they are perfect but they are way ahead of hps/mh. one 315 wasnt quite enough for 12 sq ft which is why i decided to run both the lec/led for my setup. but yeah, i got my lec kit for 200 last year. should have picked up some extras.
> 
> how did you like the gavita 750s? i almost went that way instead of lec. i think i would have had trouble trying to cool it without going A/C. right now with the lec/led combo, i can keep it at 75 with just running an exhaust fan occasionally.


You pretty much need air-conditioning with double ended hps lamps....especially using more than one in a smaller enclosed space. Only so much one can do with vent fans and what not. Maybe cold air intake in winter but the warmer months...forget it. Ac is a must. When its 80 to 95+ degrees outside ....your not cooling any HID lit growroom without a.c.


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## since1991 (Jan 3, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> not sure if they are perfect but they are way ahead of hps/mh. one 315 wasnt quite enough for 12 sq ft which is why i decided to run both the lec/led for my setup. but yeah, i got my lec kit for 200 last year. should have picked up some extras.
> 
> how did you like the gavita 750s? i almost went that way instead of lec. i think i would have had trouble trying to cool it without going A/C. right now with the lec/led combo, i can keep it at 75 with just running an exhaust fan occasionally.


The Gavita 6/750's are the bees knees. But like the above post says...you need a.c. And preferably of the mini split type to take advantage of a sealed room with a constant and stable supply of co2 gas. Hoping a bunch of lec lamps will drastically cut down on my cooling and overall electric bill and not take a huge hit on yields. In this game...ya gotta pay to play...but i need to pay less and play smarter.


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## rkymtnman (Jan 3, 2017)

since1991 said:


> The Gavita 6/750's are the bees knees. But like the above post says...you need a.c. And preferably of the mini split type to take advantage of a sealed room with a constant and stable supply of co2 gas. Hoping a bunch of lec lamps will drastically cut down on my cooling and overall electric bill and not take a huge hit on yields. In this game...ya gotta pay to play...but i need to pay less and play smarter.


i hear ya. that's why i'm gonna try a few out in the greenhouse this year. let the Sun pay the bills.


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## SPLFreak808 (Jan 4, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Ive vegged with 1000 watt hps lamps...YEARS ago. Expensive as all get out. Vowed to NEVER do it again...and i havent. I have stucl with 4 foot floro tubes of the t12 (way back) and the t5 variety for a long time. Its damn near the perfect veg lamp for me. Very uniform growth...very linear. That being said...iam fixin to jump into the world of LEC (CMH) lighting and iam buying q couple extra to slap on an old light rail i havent used in years for my veg room. See how they perform. People that have made the switch all say the same thing....t5's kick ass for veg...LEC's just blow up a veg room even more...and faster. I like what iam hearing. Also heard the spectrum in veg really compliments a silica additive. Like REAL strong branches amd thicker very healthy green leaves. And i do have an extra co2 regulator lying around...havent used it since i switched to t5's for veg. I think all three....LEC lamps on a light rail....silica additive (plus a good allround veg base nute) and co2 gas should be the trifecta...the holy trinity. How about you?


Sounds like a nice room there. I have not used the 315's yet but I've used the 400's and yes it gives the plant that "outdoorish" look and structure. 

I think im a pheno hunting addict lol, I've been running a DE 1kw on 12/12 lately and ill just toss plants in the room not giving a crap about veg time. 

once i start vegging again I've got 2 superveg t5's & 2 pure pars ready to veg along side a 400w hps.


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## BobCajun (Jan 9, 2017)

I've switched to continuous light now for clones and veg. No point even messing around with various photoperiods. Continuous means more growth and less temperature and humidity variation. I read that 24 hour is good for cuttings so might as well just use it for both. However, when I switch to flower I'll use 24 hours of dark on the first cycle to compensate. Whether or not that will make a difference I don't know, but it's easy to do so why not?

BTW, I read one article that said that a certain amount of light energy supplied over 24 hours produces more growth than the same amount supplied over a shorter photoperiod. Meaning dim light continuously beats bright light periodically, adding up to the same DLI. I'll see if I can find the article. At least it works that way with some plants, can't say how weed would react.


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## rkymtnman (Jan 9, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> Continuous means more growth and less temperature and humidity variation.


bingo!

and closer node spacing too.


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## BobCajun (Jan 9, 2017)

Since you get more veg growth in the same amount of time, as attested by many growers, why not use 24 hour, unless it's a warehouse and power rates are a big concern?


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## rkymtnman (Jan 9, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> Since you get more veg growth in the same amount of time, as attested by many growers, why not use 24 hour, unless it's a warehouse and power rates are a big concern?


a wise older grower turned me on to 24/0. been using it since day 1. 

i did try gas lantern once: had to run a heater during the dark times. didn't make sense: why run heat when i could just keep the lights on? went back to 24/0 after 2 days.


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## since1991 (Jan 9, 2017)

Its a hoot reading on the forums...threads that are temperature related (light = heat for instance) change with the seasons. Ive read several on the popular forums that are directly (but maybe even the posters dont even realize it) related to the winter and summer months.


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## Flowki (Jan 10, 2017)

Will Thayer said:


>


You know shit got way too serious when a post like this only got 1 like. Shame on you all.


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## TheHero (Nov 12, 2017)

J.cun.Shallow said:


> I heard some guy say that in the flower cycle he leaves lights on for 36 hours and then 12 hour dark


My teacher of physics told me that human body is made to work within 36 hour day. He said that we are sent here, on this planet, as workers/employees to discover new world and our memories are deleted to make us not to suffer from wanting to get to real home.

Is there any experiment done that wasnt done within 24 hour cycle 20/4 18/6 24/0?..etc


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

TheHero said:


> My teacher of physics told me that human body is made to work within 36 hour day. He said that we are sent here, on this planet, as workers/employees to discover new world and our memories are deleted to make us not to suffer from wanting to get to real home.
> 
> Is there any experiment done that wasnt done within 24 hour cycle 20/4 18/6 24/0?..etc


I'd like to sit down and smoke a doob with yer physics teacher. Talk some heavy Stargate stuff !!!


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## Lite (Nov 12, 2017)

TheHero said:


> My teacher of physics told me that human body is made to work within 36 hour day. He said that we are sent here, on this planet, as workers/employees to discover new world and our memories are deleted to make us not to suffer from wanting to get to real home.
> 
> Is there any experiment done that wasnt done within 24 hour cycle 20/4 18/6 24/0?..etc


Im gonna set my timers on my next veg for that schedule just for giggles... sounds interesting.


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

Ive tried and played around with all kinds of different lighting photoperiods...in veg and in flower. In veg my plants get 18 - 6. Ive found that this is the best compromise for seedlings/cutiings...preflowering vegetative plants and stock mother plants. And saves a little extra coin on the electric bill. That being said...cuttings that are rooting and preflowering almost ready for the flower rooms love them some 20 hour or constant 24 hour light. They both root and veg to size faster. Its not a deal breaker. But it is noticeable. Not for seedlings and mothers though. They like a nice 6 hours off dark period to rest up amd transpire from that full long day of photosynthesis production. So 18 - 6 it is. Also..if you have a dark period veg room..its not so critical compared to a 12-12 flower room to have it completely dark. When my veg lights shut off for 6 hours..I pop in there all the time for maintenance and what not. I sometimes even leave veg room doors open. Light leaks arent a factor in my veg room..which is actually a big 7x7x7 tent packed with t5's. Ive even left cloning rack t5's on 24 hours while the mothers t5's shut off for 6. But in the past ive had wierd clones/genetics start showing major pistil preflowers from going from 24 hrs light under the clone rack to 18-6 under the bigger t5's they share with mothet plants. I almost always chuck these strange genetics as Iam not taking any chances. I will just about try anything...once. Gifted/traded cuts..seed plants...anything. But at the slightest hint of acting funny and it seems they dont wanna fit the program...they get culled. Back in the day the strains I ran from Cali Connection come to mind. Some of those strains just like autoflowered or wanted to with the slightest hint of a dark period. One of the reasons i dont run CC gear anymore. Ive built up quite a stable of keepers and I run a perpetual rotation system with a test tent..a big veg tent..and 2 big flower rooms. Ive had untested hermie gear in the past blow out my strains and fuk them all up. Lost patients because I didnt have the usual meds they expected. Long ago. So I cant afford to take chances anymore. Everything new gets ran in the test tent at least once then if it makes the cut..goes to the veg tent for more observation. Alot of gear i get off the streets doesnt make it. Mainly spider mites/pests or wierd diseases.


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## Odin* (Nov 12, 2017)

TheHero said:


> Is there any experiment done that wasnt done within 24 hour cycle 20/4 18/6 24/0?..etc


Yes. 16-32hr day/night cycles. Relative and constant “Day”. Relative was 1:2 day/night (eg; 10.66 day/21.33 night for 32hr cycle), constant was 8 hour days (eg; 8 day/24 night for 32hr cycle). Cycles less than 24hrs delayed flowering (compared to 24hr cycles), cycles greater than 24hrs accelerated flowering, with “relative” having the advantage over “constant”.


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## Chunky Stool (Nov 12, 2017)

What is the best light cycle for getting a plant to reveg?


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> What is the best light cycle for getting a plant to reveg?


I always tried 24 hours for a reveg but down to 18 works as well. Its the phytochrome in the plants that they built up and you want to regulate back into a more veg period. They grow (for me) very funky for awhile. I took some Dream cuts from my outdoor when the branches were well underway in flower and these cuts are taking forever to resume natural looking growth and phylotaxy. Curly single bladed leaves. Still popping trichomes. It takes time but keep them on a minimum 18 hours vegetative light period and a veg nute regimen and they will slowly snap back into a veg plant. Lay off all the kelps and seaweeds/additives and whatnot as well. Just regular veg fertilizer. Transplant into a pot up you can as well. And be prepared to wait. Takes awhile. If you transplant to a bigger pot you can even hack off about a quarter to a third of the vwry bottom of the root ball if they are root bound. This makes roots re grow very fast and slaps them gals back into veg even quicker.


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## Chunky Stool (Nov 12, 2017)

since1991 said:


> I always tried 24 hours for a reveg but down to 18 works as well. Its the phytochrome in the plants that they built up and you want to regulate back into a more veg period. They grow (for me) very funky for awhile. I took some Dream cuts from my outdoor when the branches were well underway in flower and these cuts are taking forever to resume natural looking growth and phylotaxy. Curly single bladed leaves. Still popping trichomes. It takes time but keep them on a minimum 18 hours vegetative light period and a veg nute regimen and they will slowly snap back into a veg plant. Lay off all the kelps and seaweeds/additives and whatnot as well. Just regular veg fertilizer. Transplant into a pot up you can as well. And be prepared to wait. Takes awhile. If you transplant to a bigger pot you can even hack off about a quarter to a third of the vwry bottom of the root ball if they are root bound. This makes roots re grow very fast and slaps them gals back into veg even quicker.


I've got a cindy99 under 18/6 and I'm not sure if it's going to do squat. I left quite a few buds but several fell off. 
It had a rough life anyway & might not be up to the challenge. Root rot almost killed her early in flower. All of the fan leaves dropped & she was stunted, big-time. 
Poor plant. 
I feel bad for her.


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## ANC (Nov 12, 2017)

Yeah, I like me some 20/4 vegging. By day 20 it received 40 hours (or almost two days) of light more than 18/4. I do believe they need a rest period.

My best luck with reveging was outdoors, just leave the plant with no trimming or stealing buds (had some weird insects nest in the plants) We are in a winter rain area so they never dried out even though I left them to do what they wanted. The plants lived for 11 months.


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> I've got a cindy99 under 18/6 and I'm not sure if it's going to do squat. I left quite a few buds but several fell off.
> It had a rough life anyway & might not be up to the challenge. Root rot almost killed her early in flower. All of the fan leaves dropped & she was stunted, big-time.
> Poor plant.
> I feel bad for her.


Do you have backup copies of her? Rooted cuts? If you do..I wouldnt bother with an attempt at reveg. Especailly if youve had a pythium problem or if she just had a rough life. You can do it for an experiment or if youve never did a reveg before. But honestly...unless its a variety I just cant do without and I have no copies of her...they just take forever amd valuable space/electric bill to be really worth the effort.


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

I know its hard but a good grower knows when to hold em amd knows when to fold em. Its tough for me even after all these years to cull plants.


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## Chunky Stool (Nov 12, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Do you have backup copies of her? Rooted cuts? If you do..I wouldnt bother with an attempt at reveg. Especailly if youve had a pythium problem or if she just had a rough life. You can do it for an experiment or if youve never did a reveg before. But honestly...unless its a variety I just cant do without and I have no copies of her...they just take forever amd valuable space/electric bill to be really worth the effort.


Nope, no clones. It was a seed I got from a buddy and it started flowering while still in a solo. 
Then I used too much calcined clay in my soil mix, which caused it to retain more water. Tried to put her on the same schedule as my other outdoor plants, which was a huge mistake. 
It's a nice pheno. Very frosty & fruity. 
Maybe I'll use more light. Got three small lights on her right now. 75w total, two are blurple LED lamps. 
I could just break out a real hood and run a 400w MH. 
It would either perk her up or finish her off. 

Forgot to mention that she had a variety of bugs from being outdoors. It took a couple of weeks to kill them all for good. (spinosad + insecticidal soap)

I'm also popping some beans as plan B.


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## Odin* (Nov 12, 2017)

Not going to argue the 24/0 guys, just want to point out a few facts.

24/0 alters the plant’s metabolic processes. They will acclimate to the constant light, but detrimental to overall development. After 8 day’s of 24/0, starch buildup VS chlorophyll degradation begins. Offsetting this via temp variance does not negate the time needed to “reaclimate” to dark periods, which means delayed flowering due to chlorosis/slowed ratemof photosynthesis.

Are we trying to increase vegetation weight via starch/sugar buildup, or are we preparing for bloom? This depends on the grower, their regimen, knowledge, and goals.


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

Odin* said:


> Not going to argue the 24/0 guys, just want to point out a few facts.
> 
> 24/0 alters the plant’s metabolic processes. They will acclimate to the constant light, but detrimental to overall development. After 8 day’s of 24/0, starch buildup VS chlorophyll degradation begins. Offsetting this via temp variance does not negate the time needed to “reaclimate” to dark periods, which means delayed flowering due to chlorosis/slowed ratemof photosynthesis.
> 
> Are we trying to increase vegetation weight via starch/sugar buildup, or are we preparing for bloom? This depends on the grower, their regimen, knowledge, and goals.


YES!!! I can dig this. Keep it coming growers. The Truth shall set us free.


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

"Offsetting this via temp variance"...good stuff. And its key. Has to do with temp differential night/day variance and build up of phytochrome. Not necessarily short day nor c3 plants. Good post.


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## ANC (Nov 12, 2017)

Very few people have perfect climate control, so expecting them to offset anything is a shot in the dark.
If you require the most of your plants, you will use professional grade thermal and humidity sensors and automation.
The big guys don't accept anything over a fraction of a centigrade drift. Something like an ordinary airconditioner, has a very fuzzy thermostat/hygrostat, as it has to wait for the rest of the room/house to catch up with the temperature close to the appliance.

I am busy designing a 1 plant, 1 light grow tube, it is easier (less costly) to set up perfect conditions in a small space with less light waste than doing a tent or a room.


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## since1991 (Nov 12, 2017)

ANC said:


> Very few people have perfect climate control, so expecting them to offset anything is a shot in the dark.
> If you require the most of your plants, you will use professional grade thermal and humidity sensors and automation.
> The big guys don't accept anything over a fraction of a centigrade drift. Something like an ordinary airconditioner, has a very fuzzy thermostat/hygrostat, as it has to wait for the rest of the room/house to catch up with the temperature close to the appliance.
> 
> I am busy designing a 1 plant, 1 light grow tube, it is easier (less costly) to set up perfect conditions in a small space with less light waste than doing a tent or a room.


Since I went sealed with a mini split..sante fe dehuey..Gavita doubles. I have way more control. I can set these appliances down to a 2 to 5 increment number in temp and rh. And its awesome how much control i actually have. Basically...I dont care the medium substrate (coco or wool) nor the fert/nute regimen. What determines my output with cultivars Iam playing with is plant numbers to canopy/net trellis management. Iam trying to hit 25 to 32 zips per Gavita 6/750. And doing it isnt easy despite claims. Consistently anyways. Per 4x4 I need only 6 to 9 with an easy peasy like Dream. She just gives it up with little effort. But something og kush like..I need easily double..and with multiple top training poking through the a double trellis.


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## ANC (Nov 12, 2017)

since1991 said:


> What determines my output with cultivars Iam playing with is plant numbers to canopy/net trellis management.


This, very much.

Even more important when doing a COB grow.
Our two grow beds equal only 24.6x4' but there are about 90 plants in there.

I want to cry when I see people display their COB grow rooms with 4' tall plants standing around with light being wasted. ours are nearly done flowering and they are about knee height.


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## TheHero (Nov 13, 2017)

Odin* said:


> Not going to argue the 24/0 guys, just want to point out a few facts.
> 
> 24/0 alters the plant’s metabolic processes. They will acclimate to the constant light, but detrimental to overall development. After 8 day’s of 24/0, starch buildup VS chlorophyll degradation begins. Offsetting this via temp variance does not negate the time needed to “reaclimate” to dark periods, which means delayed flowering due to chlorosis/slowed ratemof photosynthesis.
> 
> Are we trying to increase vegetation weight via starch/sugar buildup, or are we preparing for bloom? This depends on the grower, their regimen, knowledge, and goals.


So, if I run a cool LED COB setup on low wattafge, does this affect my plants as well (24/0)? Should 24/0 be used for mother plant?

Another question, is it any good - I grow seedling now under one COB and I change lights intensity up to 6 times a day, whenever I pass by that box, I just play a little with that dimmer. Maybe it stresses plants out? I had a stunt grow at start but I thought it was because of too wet soil/coco tablets and too much nutes added to soil.


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## stiffnuts12 (Dec 31, 2018)

So ive been on the 24/0 light schedule for a month now. Can i switch to 18/6 with no issues right now?


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## Galwaith (Jan 2, 2019)

I like 24 for the first couple weeks, then I will notice that the plants just don't seem as vigorous, almost "tired", they will get this look of dehydration even though you water them. Then I will switch to 18 and 6 and the next day the leaves are all happy and standing up and seem well rested. Then from there about 2 weeks til they start putting out pre-mie flowers, once they do, into flowering.


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## AllThingsGreen (Jan 3, 2019)

Bangaman said:


> Without facts about my grow, it is presumptuous to claim you have more crop per year than I do. I've Been growing long enough for a kid to be born and out of college,and 6 years of Biology studies (Masters), to know I don't need to do all that seeding, sexing and jumping through hoops, old school stuff when my need for speedy crops are met with feminized seeds and a great seed source for all my practical purposes. In fact, my harvest cycle is down packed to a timely crop, I can't handle any faster.
> 
> One thing I can guarantee you is that when it comes to plant biology, with no science in your closet, you are navigating an ocean without a compass and though you might "hit land" based on hearsay science and blind luck, your efforts will always be infantile, like a child in a "sandbox"
> 
> ...


What’s the best book for inexperienced gardeners to start with ?


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## Serverchris (Jan 4, 2019)

ANC said:


> This, very much.
> 
> Even more important when doing a COB grow.
> Our two grow beds equal only 24.6x4' but there are about 90 plants in there.
> ...


Does it really matter how tall they are if you cut off everything on the lower end of the plant and all the growth tips are within ideal distance from the light?


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## ANC (Jan 4, 2019)

depends how much time you have....
these days I don't even veg anymore I still end up with 2' tall plants by the time we are done.


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## mr. childs (Jan 4, 2019)

ANC said:


> depends how much time you have....
> these days I don't even veg anymore I still end up with 2' tall plants by the time we are done.


from seed?


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## ANC (Jan 4, 2019)

Barely rooted clones.
No serious grower is gonna do numbers from seed.


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## Kushash (Jan 4, 2019)

AllThingsGreen said:


> What’s the best book for inexperienced gardeners to start with ?


The person you are asking hasn't been around since 2016.

Here are two popular cannabis grow books if this is what you are looking for.

Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grower's Bible
or
Marijuana Grower's Handbook by Ed Rosenthal


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## mr. childs (Jan 4, 2019)

ANC said:


> Barely rooted clones.
> No serious grower is gonna do numbers from seed.


meaning indoors commercially ?


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## ANC (Jan 22, 2019)

Anywhere you are running large numbers...
You can't afford 10 or 20% of your plants to not conform to the standard when you are doing acherages.

Lots of people doing hemp are still getting bitten like that.


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## pollen205 (Jan 25, 2019)

Can I go 24/0 first 2-3 weeks...its Crazy Cold Light give me 5-6 c +
I put heater in front od tent AND hummidity go bellow 40% and top od the soil is drying fast do when AND how often water with 24/0


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## mismos00 (Jan 25, 2019)

Budzbuddha said:


> Got to put the plants to bed , if i dont they get out of their pots and run around the fucking room .


Many living things don't sleep or take a down period, including mammals. Some animals rest half their brains while the other is awake. Some living things rest/sleep during the day, or both! I've heard of guys like this that want to simulate the moon cycles in their grow rooms and make sure the constellations are facing the right pole. Nature isn't as simple and fragile as that.


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## Budzbuddha (Jan 25, 2019)

I don’t follow moons or Uranus....

Plants have a circadian rhythm as do other forms of life. They take the energy gathered from their day absorbing light to power photosynthesis. So when the night comes , the plants METABOLIZE and grow. 

So , I guess in the world we live in , with day and night .... So plants don’t do this in outdoor settings according to you .... the whole idea of an INDOOR GROW is to “ simulate and or recreate “ the plants “ natural “ environment that it is hard wired to grow in.


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## curious2garden (Jan 25, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> Can I go 24/0 first 2-3 weeks...its Crazy Cold Light give me 5-6 c +
> I put heater in front od tent AND hummidity go bellow 40% and top od the soil is drying fast do when AND how often water with 24/0


Of course you can but your plants won't benefit from it. If you are using your light to heat, then cover your plants.

Here's the science
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1075536/

Cannabis is a C3 plant, to over simplify, they inhale in the light and exhale in the dark. So they need some time out of the light.


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## pollen205 (Jan 27, 2019)

curious2garden said:


> Of course you can but your plants won't benefit from it. If you are using your light to heat, then cover your plants.
> 
> Here's the science
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1075536/
> ...


I read on many source that Plant will be stronger and bigger with 24:0 so that is not true...


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## curious2garden (Jan 27, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> I read on many source that Plant will be stronger and bigger with 24:0 so that is not true...


That's not how you do a rebuttal to a quoted primary scientific article. You have to state how and back it with research demonstrating contrary findings. Until you can bring actual science you are simply wrong. Everything needs a sleep cycle.


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## pollen205 (Jan 27, 2019)

curious2garden said:


> That's not how you do a rebuttal to a quoted primary scientific article. You have to state how and back it with research demonstrating contrary findings. Until you can bring actual science you are simply wrong. Everything needs a sleep cycle.


Really dont understand the articale.To much science for me...but thank you now I know i must go with dark

20-4 will that be ok?


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## curious2garden (Jan 27, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> Really dont understand the articale.To much science for me...but thank you now I know i must go with dark
> 
> 20-4 will that be ok?


LOL that was a poor attempt at Reductio ad Absurdum. Merriam Webster defines it as, "disproof of a proposition by showing an absurdity to which it leads when carried to its logical conclusion."

You failed because the logical conclusion of giving a plant a sleep cycle is not reducing light beyond the point the plant will survive, death does not equal sleep, nor is it the logical conclusion of sleep.


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## pollen205 (Jan 27, 2019)

Can you please go bro science with me lol.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> Can you please go bro science with me lol.


410 posts
72 likes


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## curious2garden (Jan 28, 2019)

Chunky Stool said:


> 410 posts
> 72 likes


Bet you none of them are from his plants.


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## rkymtnman (Jan 28, 2019)

curious2garden said:


> Cannabis is a C3 plant, to over simplify, they inhale in the light and exhale in the dark. So they need some time out of the light.


1. Cannabis as a C3 can grow in 24/0 light
2. Cannabis must therefore be able to respire during lights on. 
3. Photorespiration only occurs when CO2 ppm drops below 50. 
4. If CO2 is ample, cannabis can photosynthesize and respire during lights on and no dark period is needed. 

Thoughts?


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## curious2garden (Jan 28, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> 1. Cannabis as a C3 can grow in 24/0 light
> 2. Cannabis must therefore be able to respire during lights on.
> 3. Photorespiration only occurs when CO2 ppm drops below 50.
> 4. If CO2 is ample, cannabis can photosynthesize and respire during lights on and no dark period is needed.
> ...


Hi, thoughtful answer, thank you.

Essentially you hit the limit when CO2 drops below 50 ppm in the chloroplasts and enter photorespiration, rubisco begins to fix O2 instead of CO2. Theoretically all Calvin cycle plants can do this but some do it better than others. I'd love to see specific studies on cannabis.

Next problem we have is what is the CO2 in most newbie's grow rooms? Most of the kids pushing plants with 24/0 are not supplementing CO2 nor tracking it. Their plants suffer from entering photorespiration on this light schedule.

There is also the question of CO2 concentration at the chloroplast vs. concentration in the air. There is necessarily a negative gradient here, as CO2 diffuses from air through the stoma and to the chloroplasts. I do not know how steep this gradient is, and I don't know what atmospheric CO2 corresponds to the photorespiration threshold. Further what are the visible markers of photorespiration in the cannabis plant? For that we need analytical ability.

Certainly it's possible to do but unless you know exactly what you are doing and why, you cannot be sure that it's optimal or wise to do. As an analogy, humans are omnivores but we don't thrive eating only Snickers, although we can survive on them.

Nice reasoned argument, thank you; it was a pleasure talking to you,
Annie


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## rkymtnman (Jan 28, 2019)

curious2garden said:


> Nice reasoned argument, thank you; it was a pleasure talking to you,
> Annie


thanks. you as well. here are 2 articles that i found:. maybe this would be some of the info needed. to be honest, most is over my head as a liberal arts major many yrs ago. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521184/

https://www.easybiologyclass.com/difference-between-c3-and-c4-cycles-of-photosynthesis-in-plants/

so in your best guestimate, how much is the optimal dark period for cannabis? my feeling is 6 off is too much and 1 hr off is too little. you?


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## curious2garden (Jan 28, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> thanks. you as well. here are 2 articles that i found:. maybe this would be some of the info needed. to be honest, most is over my head as a liberal arts major many yrs ago.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521184/
> 
> ...


What a pleasure to have a polite discussion on a complex topic, wherein we both don't necessarily agree. Of all the things I miss from my time in school that is the one thing I miss the most. Both boats are raised by the shared information whether agreement is reached or not 

The NCBI was a very interesting article, the easybiologyclass was quite approachable.

I run 18/6 because I've seen no difference between that and 20/4 in my environment. Because of the chemical changes in the plant as it moves from light to dark, my guess is you need 1 hour for physiological switchover (pre and post) and then possibly 2 hours of full dark to be of benefit. But that is a wild-ass hypothesis.

It would be interesting to run some side by side grows with the same clones and lights on different timers. I'd love to see the gradient curve for room and chloroplast CO2 concentration in cannabis. I'd also love to see the growth curves of time associated with various levels of CO2 supplementation in differing photoperiods.

It's sad this kind of research can't be done by the academics who have the tools to do this right, and the help with study design.


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## rkymtnman (Jan 28, 2019)

curious2garden said:


> Both boats are raised by the shared information whether agreement is reached or not


the old saying: a rising tide lifts all boats. lol. 

i'm a fan of 24/0 for myself. i've tried 18/6 and thought they stretched too much or greater node spacing compared to 24. i just tried 11/1 per another member here (name forgotten, sorry) and that seemed OK but it just seemed to me that the 1 hr dark, not much was accomplished ie did they really go to "sleep" in that short time frame. but 2 hrs saved on electricity so that was a plus.



curious2garden said:


> It's sad this kind of research can't be done by the academics who have the tools to do this right and the help with study design.


i actully emailed a Prof at Colo State who specialized in photosynthesis a few months ago and his reply was to consult with a professional grower. i replied that each grower i've contacted or read had their own theory as to why their light cycle was best. 

maybe one day the stigma will be lifted and proper studies can be completed. until then....

nice chattin with ya! have a great afternoon.


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## curious2garden (Jan 28, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> the old saying: a rising tide lifts all boats. lol.
> 
> i'm a fan of 24/0 for myself. i've tried 18/6 and thought they stretched too much or greater node spacing compared to 24. i just tried 11/1 per another member here (name forgotten, sorry) and that seemed OK but it just seemed to me that the 1 hr dark, not much was accomplished ie did they really go to "sleep" in that short time frame. but 2 hrs saved on electricity so that was a plus.
> 
> ...


If you ever decide to run 20/4 I would love to hear your experience. Do you supplement CO2? If so how much? 

I asked a friend of mine about this. He's a Ph.D. Biochemist who worked and did research in Plant Physiology. He growled at me that plants that evolved on this planet needed some dark since nowhere is there 24/0 LOL He also asked about ROI of biomass to light bills etc... He's a genius. He can grow cannabis in anything. Some of his tales are startling.

I can tell you why I use 18/6. I'm from medicine and I believe every living thing needs dark and sleep related to hormone levels. Further I live in the Mojave Desert just north of Los Angeles so our electricity rates are some of the highest in the nation. Therefore I don't supplement CO2 and I need to turn off my lights because my canopy regularly runs 95 to 105 for extended periods of time. So I'm in photorespiration from natural conditions. 

I'm off to the commissary for groceries you have a good day too.


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## rkymtnman (Jan 28, 2019)

curious2garden said:


> Do you supplement CO2? If so how much?


my little room is not sealed but i have tried it since i had the tank from homebrewing. i didnt' really notice much difference. now i just suck in fresh outside air now when lights are on. 
i just upgraded my lights to qbs so with the extra ppfd, i probably will give co2 another try next run.

but no, not 20/4. only 18/6, 11/1 and 24/0

and for your PhD buddy, here's a question: does he consider it to be 24/0 in siberia or upper scandinavia during summer time? i did some work in sweden many yrs ago and it never really got dark but not sure if it was enough light for plants to photosynthesize. hard as hell to go to sleep at night though in my hotel. 

and one more point for me, i'm at high elevation 8800 ft so things just grow slower up here so more light made more sense to me.


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## buster1977 (Jan 31, 2019)

Brick Top said:


> While some people have questioned the test results because some years later the group was caught padding some other results, tests, accurate or not I cannot swear, have shown that giving plants 72-hours of total darkness at the end of flower/just prior to harvest can increase levels/amounts of THC in some strains as much as 30%.
> 
> The THC itself is not more potent by volume but supposedly you can have a large increase in volume.
> 
> ...


I could read your shit all day!... Thx man. Smart dude


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## Big Perm (Feb 11, 2019)

JLH1983 said:


> is it the shortened daylight or extended dark period that triggers flowering?-- ive pondered like a 14/12 or 16/12 to try for flowering... cant find any research on the subject-- or possible pros/cons?


Does anyone else have any info on this?


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## rkymtnman (Feb 11, 2019)

Big Perm said:


> Does anyone else have any info on this?


i always thought it was once they get 12 hours of darkness, flowering is triggered.


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## Big Perm (Feb 11, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> i always thought it was once they get 12 hours of darkness, flowering is triggered.


So, a 16/12 would be possible?


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## rkymtnman (Feb 11, 2019)

Big Perm said:


> So, a 16/12 would be possible?


you got me on that one. do plants have a circadian rhythm? or some type of programming in the genes that a day is 24 hrs? either way, way above my pay grade, sir.


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## Big Perm (Feb 11, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> i always thought it was once they get 12 hours of darkness, flowering is triggered.


On the other hand, I have run a 13/11 cycle successfully. I'm curious now as to what triggers it. Is it the light, or is it the darkness. Probably both, but I wonder how far you can stretch it.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 11, 2019)

if you look up @torontoke , he experimented with some unusual light/dark cycles.


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## torontoke (Feb 11, 2019)

Big Perm said:


> On the other hand, I have run a 13/11 cycle successfully. I'm curious now as to what triggers it. Is it the light, or is it the darkness. Probably both, but I wonder how far you can stretch it.


Which way were you trying to stretch it.
I apologize I didn’t read the whole thread my eyes are always blurry for some reason lol.
If you are curious as to when the plants switch from veg to flower I’ve found it to be heavily strain dependant tbh
The majority of today’s hybrid stuff will flower somewhere between 14-13.5 hrs of lights on or less.


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## Big Perm (Feb 12, 2019)

torontoke said:


> Which way were you trying to stretch it.
> I apologize I didn’t read the whole thread my eyes are always blurry for some reason lol.
> If you are curious as to when the plants switch from veg to flower I’ve found it to be heavily strain dependant tbh
> The majority of today’s hybrid stuff will flower somewhere between 14-13.5 hrs of lights on or less.


The thread was dug up and someone 9 years ago wondered if they could flower with 16/12. They thought that maybe it was the 12 hours of darkness that triggered the flower cycle. I have flowered with 13/11, so was curious.


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## torontoke (Feb 12, 2019)

Big Perm said:


> The thread was dug up and someone 9 years ago wondered if they could flower with 16/12. They thought that maybe it was the 12 hours of darkness that triggered the flower cycle. I have flowered with 13/11, so was curious.


What were your findings using 13/11?
Did you find any major differences?


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## Big Perm (Feb 12, 2019)

torontoke said:


> What were your findings using 13/11?
> Did you find any major differences?


It was on some strains I'd never ran before, so I can't say anything about yield. It worked though, and I didn't get any herm's. I did get foxtails on the indicas and not on the sativas, but don't know if it was the strains. 
I haven't tried it since, but I might try it on a tent of sativas again.


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## torontoke (Feb 12, 2019)

Big Perm said:


> It was on some strains I'd never ran before, so I can't say anything about yield. It worked though, and I didn't get any herm's. I did get foxtails on the indicas and not on the sativas, but don't know if it was the strains.
> I haven't tried it since, but I might try it on a tent of sativas again.


What is the perk to using more energy?
I must have missed that part earlier.


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## Big Perm (Feb 12, 2019)

torontoke said:


> What is the perk to using more energy?
> I must have missed that part earlier.


I would assume the opposite of using less energy? Like an 11/13? 
What were your findings on your light tests?


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## torontoke (Feb 12, 2019)

Big Perm said:


> I would assume the opposite of using less energy? Like an 11/13?
> What were your findings on your light tests?


What’s the opposite of less energy?
Just less heat and plants that don’t show that late hour slump?
Most of my experiments were with glr and then reduced flowering cycles.


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## Big Perm (Feb 12, 2019)

torontoke said:


> What’s the opposite of less energy?
> Just less heat and plants that don’t show that late hour slump?
> Most of my experiments were with glr and then reduced flowering cycles.


Not biting, Sorry.
I thought you were tagged to add info on the subject, not stir shit.


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## torontoke (Feb 12, 2019)

Big Perm said:


> Not biting, Sorry.
> I thought you were tagged to add info on the subject, not stir shit.


No sir 
I’m legit asking what you thought the difference was. Just trying to figure out the purpose of the extra hour. I really can’t see what the benefit to it is.
I’m not trying to stir anything nor am I bashing anyone or their opinions.
I just genuinely get intrigued by what others think.
I meant no disrespect towards you or anyone else tbh


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## Observe & Report (Feb 13, 2019)

Phytochrome; the plant makes phytochrome and light destroys it, if enough phytochrome builds up and the plant is mature it starts flowering.


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## T macc (Feb 22, 2019)

The plant flowers with long dark periods. 11 hours of darkness is about the safest minimum. Some sativas may struggle finishing with 11 hours darks. Can push your lights to 13.5/10.5

With that said, yes you can run a cycle of 24/12 if you wanted to. With a relay timer. The longer your "days", the longer it will take your plant to finish. There is an increase in yield, tho I don't remember how much more.

You can do the opposite as well. Get an 18 hour relay timer and do 6/12. Shorter flowering time, smaller yield.


----------



## hadyashraf (Apr 19, 2020)

Sustainable420 said:


> Immitate nature.


In some parts on earth, the sun can keep rising for 3 months straight.


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## Mjj1211 (Apr 27, 2020)

Sencha said:


> Hey everyone. I've made my way through the various stages of research for my first indoor grow. However, I've seen that some people veg under 24 hour light and some under 18/6. Recently I spoke with a person from Cali who has published work in the Cannabible. He said that no MJ plant, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, should ever be given 24 hour light. "It's only wasting electricity."
> 
> Is this true? Thanks in advance.


I had my latest run almost the whole veg under 24 an just the last few weeks switched to 18/6 an I noticed a difference after a couple days so I’ll be sticking to 18/6 from now on I mean it could have been a growth spurt but for all of them to look noticeably better kinda makes me think it’s the light


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## xtsho (Apr 27, 2020)

Mjj1211 said:


> I had my latest run almost the whole veg under 24 an just the last few weeks switched to 18/6 an I noticed a difference after a couple days so I’ll be sticking to 18/6 from now on I mean it could have been a growth spurt but for all of them to look noticeably better kinda makes me think it’s the light


Placebo effect. Nothing noticeable happened in a couple days it's just your mind making you think it did. I've been growing for decades. I've grown 24/0 and 18/6 in veg switching between the two. There's no noticeable difference switching between the different hours that is going to happen in a couple days.


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## Rasduck (Apr 30, 2020)

JLH1983 said:


> hey all....
> anybody experimented with "day" length?? ie. 20/6, or 24/6 for vegg....?
> 
> also is it the shortened daylight or extended dark period that triggers flowering?-- ive pondered like a 14/12 or 16/12 to try for flowering... cant find any research on the subject-- or possible pros/cons?


Is this a serious question ??


----------



## New Age United (Apr 30, 2020)

xtsho said:


> Placebo effect. Nothing noticeable happened in a couple days it's just your mind making you think it did. I've been growing for decades. I've grown 24/0 and 18/6 in veg switching between the two. There's no noticeable difference switching between the different hours that is going to happen in a couple days.


Is there any noticeable difference through the duration?


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## Mjj1211 (May 2, 2020)

xtsho said:


> Placebo effect. Nothing noticeable happened in a couple days it's just your mind making you think it did. I've been growing for decades. I've grown 24/0 and 18/6 in veg switching between the two. There's no noticeable difference switching between the different hours that is going to happen in a couple days.


 I was thinking it was all in my head I have tendency to think every change has an effect an really it’s just mind playing tricks on me lol


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## kmog33 (May 2, 2020)

Gardenmaster1 said:


> I agree that plants can only process 18 hours of light a day, any more is just wasting electricity.


I’m into bro science too. It’s always better to trust what you feel instead of looking up easy to access info. Plants absorb light until the point of light saturation, time is irrelevant it’s like charging a battery. You can use a slow charger or a fast charger, you’ll get there at different speeds , but once you’re at 100% there’s no more capacity for charge. As a second note because we’re on another 18 vs 24 bro science opinion pot, despite popular belief...roots do not need darkness to grow....these two ideas usually come as a pair.


You’re welcome.


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## kmog33 (May 2, 2020)

HookdOnChronics said:


> If you actuall compare root growth in the 24/0 light schedual and the 18/6 light schedual you will see that you have a MUCH larger root mass in the 18/6 light schedual. And everyone knows what more roots means right.....
> 
> I use to grow 24/0 in veg. Untill I campared the root growth of that plant to one of a plant of the same size and strain in 18/6. Just seeing the difference made up my mind for me... *18/6 ALWAYS!*





kmog33 said:


> I’m into bro science too. It’s always better to trust what you feel instead of looking up easy to access info. Plants absorb light until the point of light saturation, time is irrelevant it’s like charging a battery. You can use a slow charger or a fast charger, you’ll get there at different speeds , but once you’re at 100% there’s no more capacity for charge. As a second note because we’re on another 18 vs 24 bro science opinion pot, despite popular belief...roots do not need darkness to grow....these two ideas usually come as a pair.
> 
> 
> You’re welcome.


You too. What you feel is not fact. The plants does all the same functions 18-24 for veg. Optimally you have enough light intensity to reach saturation in 18 hours. Almost no rooms have this kind of intensity, so when you run 24 hours you are more likely to get closer to giving the plant the max amount of light it is able photosynthesize in the time your lights are on. 

Flowering is determined by darkness period so theoretically if you could get to the point of light saturation in 2 hours, youd only need to veg for 2 hours a day and Turn in on every 6 hours for a bit and it would beg just as fast as running 18 or 24 hours lights on with inadequate light intensity. Sort of an exaggeration of gaslanterning(granted I feel like that tech is usually used by persons trying to save money on electricity not going for fast saturation)


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## Kalabud (Jun 12, 2020)

Ok so I was just given a plant that’s been under 24hr light. My plants have been growing on 16.5 hrs of light their entire lives. Aside from the obvious (my pots sizes versus the solo cup), is this the result of 24hr light or is it the result of major trimming & excellent light source to keep the plant compact? 

Most of my plants are very compact but a few of them do have branches that reach very far with large leaves. Should I be trimming more?


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## Mjj1211 (Jun 12, 2020)

There’s no need to trim an auto that much of anything you’re hurting it


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## breakneck (Aug 20, 2021)

A PAR/PPFD meter is needed. Some lights will give better results running 24/7 vs 18/6 and vise-versa. If the plants have ample usable light...18/6 is the way to go. If you can slap down 2000 uMols/m2 then mimic the sun. Less light intensity, go 24hrs. IMO. Also, light height...big factor. The difference between needing 24hr light and 18hrs could be light height. I recommend the Photone app for phones. Be sure to calibrate with a spec sheet from your light mfg. Energy per day is what we're after.


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