# An Atomizer for Aero



## aero45 (Jan 8, 2011)

Here is the video of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKsElmoVnpA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I posted this yesterday, but the link was changed shortly thereafter. 

I'm interested to hear what you guys think about it?


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## Mike Young (Jan 8, 2011)

I think it's cool. Did you build it yourself? Is it an electric motor or compressed air?


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## jeeba (Jan 8, 2011)

Does this work by throwing the water from the disc?Pretty ingenous


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## aero45 (Jan 8, 2011)

I did not make it, I help them package and move aero equipment. The device uses an electric motor and breaks the water into a fine mist that floats. I think the mist could be blown down sections of 4" pipe and circulated for larger grow operations, that is still comming down the line. It is truly 100% aero though and that is the most exciting part, bringing commercial grade down to the independent grower!


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## Mike Young (Jan 8, 2011)

Seems like it would be a cheap alternative to expensive pumps & accumulators with fancy solenoids & mister heads. Me thinks I'm gonna try to build one myself.


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## aero45 (Jan 8, 2011)

Much cheaper than a professional setup and the same end result, 30-80 micron sized droplets, no clogs, hassle. They are currently selling the mister/atomizer with 132 gph pump and Aero timer with 50 second intervals for $95. That's a hell of a deal! All u need at that point is a tote and some net pots.


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## Atomizer (Jan 9, 2011)

You wont get the same results if the flowrate is excessive, a gallon of water converted into 30-80 micron droplets is still a gallon  
For a 30gal tote, 0.03oz of liquid in one hit is the maximum saturation point. The rotary atomizer could acheive that maximum saturation level (30gal tote) in 50 seconds if you could feed it with a steady liquid flowrate of 0.02gph..thats about 15 teaspoons.
The other issue with rotary atomizers, apart from noise, is the motors don`t last long. They need to run at 15,000-20,000rpm to generate 30-80 microns.

The initial onslaught of droplets in the other video (7 seconds in) looks closer to 1500 micron. Judging from the inside wall of the tote, the roots will be instantly soaked and any fine root hairs that do appear will be destroyed by the force of the impact.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn920j2VIrg&feature=related


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## aero45 (Jan 9, 2011)

Thank you for your feedback Atomizer! 
I am not sure if we watched the same video, I noticed the one you posted was not the same link, here is the correct one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKsElmoVnpA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Never the less, I will assume you did watch the one i was disscusing. Keep in mind that the water on te sides of the tote was accumulated from a day of testing and not just a single burst of atomized water, you may be right about flow rate delivered to the atomizer, originally we were running a much smaller pump, if I had to guess... 4gph. The only problem with that was we couldn't get good video of it being it was such a small amount of mist. 

As to saying the initial mist was 1500, let's be fair here, this video is far from high quality and to make a judgment call like that on a pixulated video is outside of what can be measured. The atomized cloud of water you see is light enough that you can place a tissue in the tote and pull it out with out it waving around or being anything less than it just bearly being noticeably touched with water, it is truly highly atomized water. We have produced 15 of these now, the first one being over a year ago, still no fails, the motor is running at 1/3 of it's normal operating range. Even if they only lasted 2 years, at $65 a pop for just the atomizer, I believe that is cheaper than running just about any high flow pumps. 

Again, thank you for your feedback!


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## Deximus (Jan 9, 2011)

Atomizer said:


> They need to run at 15,000-20,000rpm to generate 30-80 microns.


If the droplets are formed by centripetal force overcoming surface tension of a film of liquid, wouldn't the droplet size be a function of both RPM and disk diameter? That looks suspiciously like a dremel grinding wheel  

A brushless DC motor would help solve the mechanical reliability and noise problem. Personally, I'd just build two and stagger a pair of timers, with one resetting the other to keep them synchronized.


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## aero45 (Jan 9, 2011)

What is a micron you say? Here is a link that lays it out beautifully! http://www.pecuniary.com/newsletters/microns2.html

In short, fog is .5 to 20 microns.
Mist is 20-150 microns and rain is everthing larger than that, in the aera of 1000 microns usually.

It is clear in the video that this is not fog nor rain, it is mist, the ideal aero environment.

Again, all of the units have ran great, the original is a year now and still purring nicely, and the sound is very lite, see the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKsElmoVnpA&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## supaleeb (Jan 9, 2011)

Deximus said:


> That looks suspiciously like a dremel grinding wheel


lol, it does, doesn't it.


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## BettyAnn (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi. I've been looking for something like this, but the link < Http://shop.eBay.com/chirocolt45.m.html > appears to be busted. Did you pull it from eBay?


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## aero45 (Jan 9, 2011)

Email [email protected], they are the ones that produce them and sell them. They are also on eBay under the user name chirocolt45.


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## Atomizer (Jan 9, 2011)

Deximus said:


> If the droplets are formed by centripetal force overcoming surface tension of a film of liquid, wouldn't the droplet size be a function of both RPM and disk diameter? That looks suspiciously like a dremel grinding wheel
> 
> A brushless DC motor would help solve the mechanical reliability and noise problem. Personally, I'd just build two and stagger a pair of timers, with one resetting the other to keep them synchronized.


A rotary atomising disc is precision engineered, a grinding disc wont create the correct droplets at any speed 

The droplets are creating by ridges in the disc which end in teeth at the perimeter of the disc.The rotation, ridges create thin strands of water from the teeth which break up into droplets. Droplet size is a function of speed, disc design and flowrate.

How do i know? I have one thats gathering dust  I interrogated the tech dept of the company that design and make them. This one generates 50um vmd (Dv0.5) at 15000rpm. Its noisy and doesn`t provide tight enough control for true aero use...another experiment that ended up in file 13 even with the backing of solid accurate reseach lol

Hundreds of tiny channels (ridges) on the back of the disc end up at the teeth


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## Atomizer (Jan 10, 2011)

aero45 said:


> As to saying the initial mist was 1500, let's be fair here, this video is far from high quality and to make a judgment call like that on a pixulated video is outside of what can be measured. The atomized cloud of water you see is light enough that you can place a tissue in the tote and pull it out with out it waving around or being anything less than it just bearly being noticeably touched with water, it is truly highly atomized water.


The droplets below 50um are not too visible to the naked eye. Unless you`ve had it lab tested you can`t really claim any droplet range with certainty.

Assuming the full flow from the pump (no losses) is turned into single droplet sizes you`d get 60 million x 100micron per second. 80 micron would be 114million per second and at the visible threshold of 50 micron you`d get 470million per second.
The human eye isn`t capable of telling the difference between them given the timescale. It may be worth looking into having them tested professionally with something like a Malvern 2600C analyser so you have the concrete data. Its not a machine worth buying unless you have very deep pockets, a used one costs around $12,000. 



> We have produced 15 of these now, the first one being over a year ago, still no fails, the motor is running at 1/3 of it's normal operating range. Even if they only lasted 2 years, at $65 a pop for just the atomizer, I believe that is cheaper than running just about any high flow pumps.


High flow pumps are only used for low pressure aero so you may be right. With the first unit running for over a year there must be a few pics of the root structure? The youtube vids only demonstrate the mist in empty chambers unless i missed it.


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## aero45 (Jan 10, 2011)

I will post some root growth pictures of the current system I posted as they come, while I'm at it, anything else you want to see?

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## Atomizer (Jan 10, 2011)

nope, that`ll do fine thanks Aero  
I understand that getting a pic of <100um mist isn`t easy but it is possible. 
Its mostly invisible unless you use high res and get the sun to highlight the larger droplets. The mist in the pic has droplet sizes ranging from 8um to 95um.


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## Deximus (Jan 11, 2011)

Hey Atomizer, I had a question regarding netafim foggers. If you can spare a moment, it would really help me finish hammering out my design. Is there a way I can get in touch with you or should I create a new thread here?


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## aero45 (Jan 15, 2011)

So here is a picture of the first root sprouts after a dirt to aero transplant, day 3, pretty rough for the plant but all six are pulling through very nicely and growing.


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## Atomizer (Jan 16, 2011)

Hi Aero
The transition from soil to hydro is rough, from soil to hp aero is even more of a leap. Once the roots get clear of the netpots, the hp root structure should start kicking in.


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## aero45 (Jan 19, 2011)

Hey Atomizer!
I did the math on my set up and I am misting 4oz every click on my 48 pin growcolt timer. You stated maximum saturation its at .001oz a gal going off your .03oz for 30gal numbers. That for my 14gal tote comes out to be 0.014oz until maximum saturation, that number is so small, its that really possible? 

Referenced here, http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070810132455AAfCf71, a drop of water is .003oz, meaning that full saturation for my 14 gal tote would be roughly 4.67 drops, 5! drops of water. 

Are you sure about your numbers or have I made a miscalculation? Also, wouldn't the root growth and the plants ability to suck up fluid greatly influence this? I only ask b/c I want to effectively dial my system in.

Thank you for your help.


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## Atomizer (Jan 20, 2011)

If the 5 drops of water are converted into the correct droplet size it will fill the entire space. If you have just 5 large drops, you wont get the coverage even though it contains exactly the same amount of liquid. Large droplets fall to the floor rapidly, wet floor = nft, not hp aero. Very small droplets evaporate before they reach the target.

Control over the mist is key. Deliver too much in one hit or use mist with too large a droplet size and you might as well be using a watering can. 

Wet is a relative term to describe levels of dryness  
The picture of the mist i posted earlier in the thread was taken a full 18 minutes after the misting pulse had ended, looks plenty wet enough to a root. Imagine how "wet" the chamber volume is directly after the misting pulse. 

We imagine plants taking up moisture the way we would do it. The difference is that we would die of thirst if we had to "drink" mist, plants can thrive in what appears to be a fairly dry fog. This mindset is probably the reason so many plants get overwatered on a regular basis.

Edit: This may help get your head around it.
1ml of water (0.003oz) is enough to form a single droplet 1240um in diameter. Its not what you might call big 
The same 1ml can form 3,733 x 80um droplets, 15,290 x 50um droplets, 70,787 x 30um droplets or 15,290,000 x 5um droplets. 
A gallon of chamber volume equates to a "box" roughly 6.13" x 6.13" x 6.13" in size. Its not that large considering over the 5-80um size range you`ll have between 13 and 52,500 droplets *per cubic inch* after each misting.



> That for my 14gal tote comes out to be 0.014oz until saturation, that number is so small, its that really possible?


 work out the number of 5-80um droplets you`ll have per cubic inch and then decide


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## aero45 (Jan 20, 2011)

Ok, so I am on board with the volume of water need each misting. My follow up is how often do you mist this and second, is their any need to have a return to the reservoir? Last, 2 part q here, if we misted .014oz every min, that comes out to be about 20oz a day. Is their any need to flush my nutrients if I don't include a return and could I just mist my entire reservoir, being 5gal, that would take 32 days with out fumbling with it? Thanks again for all help!


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## Bob Smith (Jan 20, 2011)

Atomizer, sent you a PM whenever you get a chance - I'm doing a vertical TAG setup (will be setup within the next week) and would love some of your input.

Sorry for the slight threadjack.


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## Atomizer (Jan 20, 2011)

Aero
The misting duration is set by the saturation point and doesn`t change. The number of cycles is varied to meet the needs of the plants. 
Decreasing the cycle time increases the misting frequency without affecting the saturation unless you go too short. The droplet size range, coverage and control over the misting duration are equally important and sounds easy. 
Coverage and control are difficult as they interact. The more nozzles you run for coverage, the higher the flow and the shorter the misting duration you need.

How are your roots doing and what kind of plants are they? looks like some kind of cabbage or lettuce.

Bob
I`ll take a look.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 20, 2011)

OP, last threadjack, I swear........

Atomizer, details (more so than in my PM to you, as well as some pics/video) are here:

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/398478-med-pressure-aero.html

OP, sorry again..........don't mean to be rude, just under a bit of a time cruch (self-inflicted).


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## Atomizer (Jan 26, 2011)

Hey Aero, 
the roots are 14 days old, are they looking like hp or lp?


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## AquaGlow (Jan 26, 2011)

good thread Aero. I'm interested. do you have pics I'd like to see the results?


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## aero45 (Jan 28, 2011)

Here is a recent one, i will add new ones when they come.


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## Kingofpoon (Jan 30, 2011)

Atomizer said:


> A rotary atomising disc is precision engineered, a grinding disc wont create the correct droplets at any speed
> 
> The droplets are creating by ridges in the disc which end in teeth at the perimeter of the disc.The rotation, ridges create thin strands of water from the teeth which break up into droplets. Droplet size is a function of speed, disc design and flowrate.
> 
> ...



i love when people try to complicate simplicity

that attached photo which you claim to be a highly advanced atomising disc is in fact a picture of a 1 1/2 inch dremel saw used for plastic having teeth ranging from 36 tooth to 200 tooth 

how do i know this you ask becuase i read this article the saw your picture pulled out a old dremel tool and ordered a hss 160 tooth 1 1/2 inch saw mounted and just like that had a "precision engineered atomising disc"

runs good at around 3k rpms but at 7k works incredible if you willing to tolorate that kind of noise as stated before a brushless dc motor would fix noise and reliablity problems but didnt have one of those lying around i know this is a little old just thought id throw it out there if some one else thought this was interesting but didnt want to spend all that expesally if like me you already had pump and timer 

two last notes it may not be true aeroponics but shows promise hopefully in the next week i can show some root growth and second if you do plan to do this i recommend you stay away from the cheapest hss blade you can find went though 3 companys before i found one i like the other to had ununiformed teeth which even for a shyts and giggles projects i wasnt willing to proceed with


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## aero45 (Jan 30, 2011)

Not sure which bit your talking about, the one in the photo I uploaded doesn't have any teeth. The one Atomizer uploaded does. Intresting though, please upload your project! I would love to see. I work with the people that put the first one together and they have switched over to a new motor that does 30k w/o the noise. I am waiting to see the final project. They also are creating a board that will control your lights, timer and pump, pretty cool stuff!!!


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## Atomizer (Jan 30, 2011)

I don`t know how he made the leap from saw blade to atomising disc  
The roots look ok Aero, you could do with a camera with a macro function though. The roots underneath the pot look pretty good, looks like they are sheltered from the bulk of the spray judgng by the amount of standing water on the outside of the netpot.

You might gain some control if you can seperate the disc rotation and water delivery. Get the motor upto speed first and then drop a set amount of water on it. 
The disc will slow down when it gets hit with water so.. the more no load rpm you have the better.


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## Atomizer (Jan 30, 2011)

Kingofpoon said:


> i love when people try to complicate simplicity
> 
> that attached photo which you claim to be a highly advanced atomising disc is in fact a picture of a 1 1/2 inch dremel saw used for plastic having teeth ranging from 36 tooth to 200 tooth
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are confusing computer designed high speed rotary disc atomisers with rotary sprinklers like the GH Rainforest uses. The rainforest spinner was designed for the task unlike a common or garden dremel sawblade but at the end of the day its still just a glorified sprinkler. 
This may be a useful starting point for research, http://www.micron.co.uk/why_cda



> *that attached photo which you claim to be a highly advanced atomising disc is in fact a picture of a 1 1/2 inch dremel saw used for plastic having teeth ranging from 36 tooth to 200 tooth *


As far as my pic being some kind of dremel sawblade..good luck finding this in a dremel tool catalogue lol, hopefully you didnt spend a lot on the 160-tooth sawblade you mistook it for


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## aero45 (Feb 3, 2011)

I was finally able to catch an image of the mist with my camera, what do you think?


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## Atomizer (Feb 4, 2011)

It could be an optical illusion but it appears to have a stringy quality about it. Perhaps the ligaments arent breaking up into droplets and the disc is generating cylinders not spheres


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## aero45 (Feb 4, 2011)

It's an illusion, they are singular droplets, and moving in circular currents so the camera blends them. You can get an idea of the size though. The root structures are finally gaining some steam, the plants def. did not enjoy their dirt to aero move, lol!


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## pounce (Feb 18, 2011)

So, is it a Dremel or similar motor in that PVC pipe? 

I'd imagine you could make that thing a lot smaller and a lot safer if you simply used a DC motor. You don't actually need anything near the kind of torque a hand held rotary tool outputs. You just need high RPM's from what I can tell.

Using AC near water like this can kill someone. Just think about someone adjusting the mount on that device and having it drop into the water. Human instinct is going to kick in and the person is going to reach for the device as it's dropping. ZAP!

At the very least you will have issues with a rotary tool getting that much humidity.

The concept is good though so keep advancing. Safety first


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