# Discuss the advantages of "Vert"



## Chip Green (Sep 24, 2017)

So, I figure, anybody who is using this style right now, MUST have above average growing skill....
I'm fascinated and intrigued, I have to know more. 
I'm on the brink of a new home purchase, Ill be designing a new grow area in the coming months. I'm comfortable with the DIY LED route, so full customization is possible.
There MUST be multiple factors behind the decision to run this method, please discuss.


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## Enigma (Sep 24, 2017)

50+ g/sq ft comes to mind.


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## gr865 (Sep 25, 2017)

Enigma said:


> 50+ g/sq ft comes to mind.


24.4 Zips, 1.2 g/w of smokable buds or 57.2 grams/sqft. I grew in a 4x4 tent, vert, but only used 9 to 12 sqft for the grow.


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## rkymtnman (Sep 29, 2017)

Chip Green said:


> So, I figure, anybody who is using this style right now, MUST have above average growing skill....
> I'm fascinated and intrigued, I have to know more.
> I'm on the brink of a new home purchase, Ill be designing a new grow area in the coming months. I'm comfortable with the DIY LED route, so full customization is possible.
> There MUST be multiple factors behind the decision to run this method, please discuss.


do some google searches for heath robinson vertical grows. he only used a 600 hps but his designs and especially his results will blow you away. 

and GR865 had a helluva good grow too using CMH bulbs.


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## coreywebster (Sep 29, 2017)

More square foot of canopy for less square foot of floor space.

When my mate moved house I told him he needed to go vert. He used to have 4m2 to utilize but after the move he could only use a 1m2 tent 2m high. So I gave him my old cool tubes and set the tent up with 2 shelves on 3 walls and 2 600w hps and increased his usable space. Still not as much as he had but better than he would of had running 1 x 600w horizontal.

I don't think growing skill comes into it.


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## gr865 (Sep 29, 2017)

coreywebster said:


> I don't think growing skill comes into it.


There is a learning curve to vertical, it is time consuming and you have to stay on top of the grow are you are fucked. Consistency is the key, being able to pull it off time after time. One might get lucky on one grow but at some point he will mess up.
This was what I considered my best vertical grow but I still had issues, my fault but again learning curve. It is that way with every grow style unless you just chunk the beans in the woods and come back later to see what came up. 
I do believe it to be combo of grow style and more important the amount of light available to the plants. To me that is the limiting factor in most grows.

GR


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## Stealthstyle (Oct 6, 2017)

i pulled 36 oz of one 600 watter in a vertical sog. there was rooom for more too with area enough for a scog at the bottom. would have been harder to work on though with a scrog on the bottom. negatives- plant numbers and how much coco needed. looks suspect buying that much coco. (9litres x 36)


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 6, 2017)

I have to post a counterpoint here. 

My best yield was 4 plants under an air cooled hood with a 600 hps in a 3.5'x3.5' area. I did 24 oz of dense nugs. I don't weigh trim or small or loose nugs until we make oil or butter so none are counted. If I was commercial the small buds alone would add 2 oz to these numbers. 

I consistently average 20 to 22 ounces like this. and with 4 plants a week to 10 days apart and on stands to keep an even canopy. I am counting 3-4 plants per month and averaging. Different strains or crosses are planted each time. So the plants can produce differently but the average always stays. 

I have 2 600's going and a 3x3 veg tent and have done this from seed for over 2.5 years now. 

The only training is to bend the flowers one time by week 2 of 12/12 to promote branching into approx 30" little bushes. And maybe staking if the strain is viney. 

How is vertical better in these small spaces? 

Heath Robinson was mentioned but he grew huge trees with the branches tied to the ceiling to hold them up with multiple light bulbs per plant hanging all around it. 

The plants are bigger than the bedroom I am using.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 6, 2017)

Stealthstyle said:


> i pulled 36 oz of one 600 watter in a vertical sog. there was rooom for more too with area enough for a scog at the bottom. would have been harder to work on though with a scrog on the bottom. negatives- plant numbers and how much coco needed. looks suspect buying that much coco. (9litres x 36)


Wow. Super great job!

I meant to add above that a sea of green shelf or stadium grow might do it but I can only have 12 plants total. And I can move my plants around easy.


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## predd (Oct 7, 2017)

YIELD!!.....I have only a very small space to work with to flower in (36x20x60" tent). I have done many horizontal grows with high end led cob's and I just can't get the same yield.I have probably triple the surface area when I go vert. Then there's the training, getting a level canopy horizontal can be quite a challenge (I've topped, lst, mainlined etc etc)For me vert requires virtually no training in veg unless I have an indica that won't side branch(then I top)...just let em grow. Then when I throw them into flower I just pin them to the screens during the stretch and the remove a bunch of fan leaves....so ez. I'm also using octopot's with super soil( sip's) so I only need to water once a week if that.......I could literally open my flower tent once a week if I wanted.....mega yields of killer organic weed with virtually no maintenance.....I'm using a 315 lec cmh btw.


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## gr865 (Oct 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Wow. Super great job!
> 
> I meant to add above that a sea of green shelf or stadium grow might do it but I can only have 12 plants total. And I can move my plants around easy.


Not sure what your grow area size but if you have the room, two 5 plant vert screens, w/1260W (two stacked 315W CMH per screen groupe). That would be 10 plants and give you two mothers two grow.
I ran a 5 plant screen grow, one plants did very little, but the other 4 gave me 34.5 zips total with 24.5 trimmed smokable buds. That was with stacked 315's.
Just a thought, I know ya gotta work with whatcha got. 
Good luck
GR


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 7, 2017)

gr865 said:


> Not sure what your grow area size but if you have the room, two 5 plant vert screens, w/1260W (two stacked 315W CMH per screen groupe). That would be 10 plants and give you two mothers two grow.
> I ran a 5 plant screen grow, one plants did very little, but the other 4 gave me 34.5 zips total with 24.5 trimmed smokable buds. That was with stacked 315's.
> Just a thought, I know ya gotta work with whatcha got.
> Good luck
> GR



I just posted above that each 600 is over 3.5'x3.5' or 12.25 square feet. 

And I have done 24 oz only counting dense buds over the size of a quarter round. Everything else to the trim pile for edibles and not weighed. 

This was done with 4 different strains from seed some I had not grown before and all 4 plants were at different stages of growth. 

I could easily beat my record with a medium yielding strain grown together. 

I have 2 600's over 3.5'x7' with a plant harvested every week to 10 days on average. 

I used the weight of 4 plants harvested in one months time for the record posted. 

So 24 oz plus a quarter pound of trimmed bud leaves and small and loose buds under a 600 watt Hortilux super hps in a 12.25 square foot area is my current record. 

But I don't Grow for yield. I grow for quality. The yield came from practice. I use potting soil and a bottle of base Grow nutes and well water only. And in 3 gallon plastic nursery pots. 

I have needed cal mag for my soft well water but now supplement lime in the mix to cover the missing calcium. 

Not sold on small vert grows. May try a heath Robinson style grow in my basement though. I would hang 2 bare 600's and 1 600 blue metal halide around one plant.


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## Flowki (Oct 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I just posted above that each 600 is over 3.5'x3.5' or 12.25 square feet.
> 
> And I have done 24 oz only counting dense buds over the size of a quarter round. Everything else to the trim pile for edibles and not weighed.
> 
> ...


I am really not being a dick here but it seems you are set in your ways and are defensively disqualifying this as it's easier than adapting your setup. But the thing is, you don't need to change it at all if you don't want to. People grow in ways that suite them, it's not all about yield as you said.

You can't argue the math because no matter the size of a space, lighting and lay out techniques exists to take advantage of existing space, walls and even the roof depending on circumstance. The logistics of achieving light intensity over this increased surface area is the subjective part and that alone.

Exceptions will obviously exist but for most of us it's lack of desire. Again, nothing wrong with that.


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## Uncle Reefer (Oct 25, 2017)

I have done many vert grows. in the end the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Yes on paper you will get more once in a while but the work involved is way more. 
KISS my friend KISS


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 25, 2017)

Flowki said:


> I am really not being a dick here but it seems you are set in your ways and are defensively disqualifying this as it's easier than adapting your setup. But the thing is, you don't need to change it at all if you don't want to. People grow in ways that suite them, it's not all about yield as you said.
> 
> You can't argue the math because no matter the size of a space, lighting and lay out techniques exists to take advantage of existing space, walls and even the roof depending on circumstance. The logistics of achieving light intensity over this increased surface area is the subjective part and that alone.
> 
> Exceptions will obviously exist but for most of us it's lack of desire. Again, nothing wrong with that.



I am actually and have been considering a vert bare bulb grow in my basement like I was saying. I have not insulated it yet so the new rooms are still a ways off (bought old house needs work still). 

But from my research I feel multiple bulbs around full size trees (6.5' available in basement and 10x12 or so area for flowering) would be a better option. 

I am not challenging different styles. I chose to stick with one method until I felt fully competent and had repeatable results for a couple of years. 

What I am challenging here is the trellis around a single bulb. There are obviously more square feet available for canopy but the thickness of the canopy needs to be considered. 

I see a few inches of bud thick to maybe a foot spread out on the screens. 

With the overhead lighting kept to the proper coverage areas and some space for airflow through the plants I bud up to 30" thick. 

I can see sea of green stadium or shelf potential more than the 3 or 4 trellises and 1 bulb tent style. 

I am responsible for a consistent supply of meds. I can't take drastic risks all at once like revamping my whole setup. It's not that I don't want to try different things. 

I plan to run some bubble buckets or even a hempy Grow to compare pure hydro to my hybrid organic Grow too.


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## gr865 (Oct 25, 2017)

If you have the room to do vertical trees, go for it, have seen great results. Wish I had the room and was living somewhere I was comfortable to do so.
GR


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## ttystikk (Oct 25, 2017)

Gaming spent a lot of time developing equipment and techniques to take advantage of vertical growing, I'm of the opinion that the juice IS worth the squeeze.

Ultimately it comes down to less for space for a given yield and less effort training once you have a system down.


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## Flowki (Oct 26, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I am actually and have been considering a vert bare bulb grow in my basement like I was saying. I have not insulated it yet so the new rooms are still a ways off (bought old house needs work still).
> 
> But from my research I feel multiple bulbs around full size trees (6.5' available in basement and 10x12 or so area for flowering) would be a better option.
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying completely on the logistic/risk parts.

The light penetration thing, although a good point I still disagree with. You may get deeper penetration (straight face) if in a 3x3 under normal grow conditions but the density of buds the lower you get suffers, this is why the likes of UB topping for 4 is out dated if pushing for weight. If you spread out that canopy over a cage it is obviously less dense but the area will increase a lot more. The most important part is the light hitting most of the thin canopy at optimal intensity. Essentially every bud is going to have the density of top bud and although smaller in size, they will out weigh donkey dicks volume wise.

In an ideal situation you would first max out surface area canopy. With that maxed out you would also max out light intensity/spread to cover that area. Once that's maxed out you would have no other real option but to increase canopy density where possible, but that could detract from initial surface area.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 26, 2017)

Flowki said:


> I get what you are saying completely on the logistic/risk parts.
> 
> The light penetration thing, although a good point I still disagree with. You may get deeper penetration (straight face) if in a 3x3 under normal grow conditions but the density of buds the lower you get suffers, this is why the likes of UB topping for 4 is out dated if pushing for weight. If you spread out that canopy over a cage it is obviously less dense but the area will increase a lot more. The most important part is the light hitting most of the thin canopy at optimal intensity. Essentially every bud is going to have the density of top bud and although smaller in size, they will out weigh donkey dicks volume wise.
> 
> In an ideal situation you would first max out surface area canopy. With that maxed out you would also max out light intensity/spread to cover that area. Once that's maxed out you would have no other real option but to increase canopy density where possible, but that could detract from initial surface area.


Yes I have heard and read the theory. Problem is I don't Grow for yield. I grow 1 plant at a time from feminized seed spaced out about 10 days apart now for harvesting a plant every week or two. I want the highest quality and plant potential I can get.

I don't use boosters or additives. Just potting soil. Well water and pure Blend Pro Grow as needed.

Any soil and nutes I tried gave similar results.

I keep the plants on stands to even out the canopy and my 2 600's overhead in sun system blockbusters grow dense bud 30" down through the canopy.

Of course genetics and conditions are going to drastically change results im told. But any good genetics have proven to get results with a good Grow.

In fact I think the environment and individual Grow are more important than genetics for the most part.

I try new seeds all the time. I have no way to know my results each seed can be different. Especially poly hybrids.

How much would I get if I grew a room of clones from a high yielding monther plant together?

I am already matching the best numbers I read from the vert claims here.

I suggest practice. Not labor intensive techniques. I bend these plants and tie them down only once usually. And I move them all around every watering to give them equal light all around. And air flow. Which is just as important.

All 3 plants are from different breeders seeds and were grown at different times of the year In my ventilated room. 

     

The lowers may be smaller but they are just as dense and frosty as the tops. In fact. I mostly smoke the little buds due to high value and demand for the tops when it comes to donations.


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## Uncle Reefer (Oct 26, 2017)

SO do you really mean side lighting , one plant with many lights around it? If so I wouldn't consider that vertical growing. That is common practice up here in bc because of the medical plant count laws. I have heard of monster plants with 4 1000 watters around them. Not the best yield per photon but fantastic yield per plant


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## Enigma (Oct 26, 2017)

Uncle Reefer said:


> SO do you really mean side lighting , one plant with many lights around it? If so I wouldn't consider that vertical growing. That is common practice up here in bc because of the medical plant count laws. I have heard of monster plants with 4 1000 watters around them. Not the best yield per photon but fantastic yield per plant


Think of a wall of green, four plants with the stalks and stems spread out over a trellis, the lights are lined up on just one side. You could see ~50 sq ft to play with in a footprint of 24 sq ft.

You could also use a 600W HID in a 3x3 tent with four plants or a 1000W HID in a 4x4 vertically.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 26, 2017)

Uncle Reefer said:


> SO do you really mean side lighting , one plant with many lights around it? If so I wouldn't consider that vertical growing. That is common practice up here in bc because of the medical plant count laws. I have heard of monster plants with 4 1000 watters around them. Not the best yield per photon but fantastic yield per plant



All vertical bare bulb growing is side lighting really. 

And yes. I am thinking 2 600's and 1 315 per plant and a grid above to easily move the bulbs and support branches from overhead. 

Like heath Robinson. 

But really just for fun. Vertical is being adapted in here ways but like said earlier in the thread it is really a way to maximize space with little plants on shelves and a lot of them as a production method


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## Uncle Reefer (Oct 26, 2017)

Than in this case you have my approval.


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## PKHydro (Oct 26, 2017)

I'm running pretty much the exact setup you guys are describing...4 plants in a top feed hydro system, 5 1000w bare bulbs hung amongst them. Grid above to move lights and to tie off main branches.

I'll just leave this here for you guys to have a look if you want. 

http://rollitup.org/t/my-latest-vert-garden.898041/


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 26, 2017)

Uncle Reefer said:


> Than in this case you have my approval.



Nice!


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## MichiganMedGrower (Oct 26, 2017)

PKHydro said:


> I'm running pretty much the exact setup you guys are describing...4 plants in a top feed hydro system, 5 1000w bare bulbs hung amongst them. Grid above to move lights and to tie off main branches.
> 
> I'll just leave this here for you guys to have a look if you want.
> 
> http://rollitup.org/t/my-latest-vert-garden.898041/



Thanks man. That's about what I was planning. 

Awesome grow! Hope I can do the style justice.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 9, 2017)

This should be bad to the bone.
https://growershouse.com/grow-logic-vertical-de-complete


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## ttystikk (Nov 11, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> This should be bad to the bone.
> https://growershouse.com/grow-logic-vertical-de-complete


That's interesting. I'd be all over it but lighting tech has moved on.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 11, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> That's interesting. I'd be all over it but lighting tech has moved on.


I think this with led side lighting would match or exceed a pure led grow.


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## ttystikk (Nov 11, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> I think this with led side lighting would match or exceed a pure led grow.


Try it and let us know.

My money is on 'no'.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 11, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Try it and let us know.
> 
> My money is on 'no'.


At this time of year,under the conditions I have, the vert DE should easily win, considering the need for heat.


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## ttystikk (Nov 11, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> Under the conditions I have it would easily win, considering heat.


If you need that much heat to keep your temperatures up, you'd do well to insulate your room better.


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## digging (Nov 11, 2017)

I absolutely love these forums !!!

This product https://growershouse.com/grow-logic-vertical-de-complete

This is the answer to all my prayers, thanks #jonsnow399 

Thank you so much !!!!!!!!


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 11, 2017)

digging said:


> I absolutely love these forums !!!
> 
> This product https://growershouse.com/grow-logic-vertical-de-complete
> 
> ...


No thanks necessary, I like to help people make and take drugs.


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## Bigz2277 (Nov 11, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> No thanks necessary, I like to help people make and take drugs.


not all heroes wear capes


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## predd (Nov 17, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> This should be bad to the bone.
> https://growershouse.com/grow-logic-vertical-de-complete


Could someone explain the advantage of this over hanging my 315 cmh vert barebulb?....all I can think is a more even spread of light...


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 17, 2017)

predd said:


> Could someone explain the advantage of this over hanging my 315 cmh vert barebulb?....all I can think is a more even spread of light...


these are higher wattage hps bulbs, more intense and more coverage


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## digging (Nov 21, 2017)

These vertical reflectors are a dream come true. 

They allow the use of DE double ended bulbs, which means more intensity of light and the DE bulbs last much longer than socket style of lights. 

Another benefit, when growing trees with vertical bare bulb, up till now if one was wanting to use CMH lighting, they would have to double, possibly triple stack the 315 watt bulbs on top of each other. This configuration would require its own contraption to stack the 315 watt bulbs, with the addition of multiple wires to each of the vertical bulb receptacle back to the ballasts. 

Greatest Christmas gift for a vertical bare bulb grower


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 21, 2017)

I am sad anyone will pay that much for a glass tube and a pair of connectors. 

My glass enclosed air cooled blockbuster with German 95% reflective material cost a lot less.


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## digging (Nov 21, 2017)

I agree, they are way over priced …


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## pinner420 (Nov 25, 2017)

digging said:


> I absolutely love these forums !!!
> 
> This product https://growershouse.com/grow-logic-vertical-de-complete
> 
> ...


Which bulb did you decided to run in this little devil?


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I am sad anyone will pay that much for a glass tube and a pair of connectors.
> 
> My glass enclosed air cooled blockbuster with German 95% reflective material cost a lot less.


These don't need any reflective material, that needs replacing. Doesn't need air cooling either. I wonder how much their glass reduces output? Having said that, I agree, this thing is way overpriced.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 25, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> These don't need any reflective material, that needs replacing. Doesn't need air cooling either. I wonder how much their glass reduces output? Having said that, I agree, this thing is way overpriced.



The rounded glass will reduce the light output more than flat glass below a reflector. But it is still likely under 10% I bet. 

I don't know if I could work around lit open hanging de's. That would be super bright. 

I don't see it mentioned anywhere. But I like that my reflectors are at eye level and focused downward. I don't have to be beamed in the eyes with the light. I can stand there and just enjoy the plants. 

I would have to turn off that vert de lamp.


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## digging (Nov 25, 2017)

I am going to be running the 630 watt de 3000r

Can't wait for them to be released …

@PKHydro , does this vertical fixture interest you at all ?

Can you imagine having 5 of 1000 watt DE bulbs, whether it be CMH or HPS in your rooms ?


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> The rounded glass will reduce the light output more than flat glass below a reflector. But it is still likely under 10% I bet.
> 
> I don't know if I could work around lit open hanging de's. That would be super bright.
> 
> ...


Just wear sunglasses, don't stare directly at the bulb and you're golden.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 25, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> Just wear sunglasses, don't stare directly at the bulb and you're golden.



You would get blasted in my little 9'x8' spare bedroom. 

Plus I don't have to and I haven't seen any advantage to setting up vert with my plant count. 

If I wanted to maximize production in a small space with unlimited plant count I would do a stadium or shelf vert grow. Then I might consider the tube. I wonder how hot the glass gets?


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## pinner420 (Nov 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> You would get blasted in my little 9'x8' spare bedroom.
> 
> Plus I don't have to and I haven't seen any advantage to setting up vert with my plant count.
> 
> If I wanted to maximize production in a small space with unlimited plant count I would do a stadium or shelf vert grow. Then I might consider the tube. I wonder how hot the glass gets?


On average the room would be 10 degrees cooler with one less fan operating.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 25, 2017)

pinner420 said:


> On average the room would be 10 degrees cooler with one less fan operating.


Why? I use glass sealed air cooled lamps. Heat is ducted out immediately. 

Not to pick too much but other factors like my low ceiling makes it hard to vent the exhaust up high enough to keep it from building up right back to the canopy.


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## pinner420 (Nov 25, 2017)

Reason is convection. Heat goes staight up the cord. You get to use all of your 100ish dollar bulb by surrounding it with plant material instead of a german aluminum reflector aka a heat ratiator that has to be cooled with an auxiliary kick ass fan. So you can utilize more photon watts and less Air conditioning watts. And the room is beatifully quiet.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> You would get blasted in my little 9'x8' spare bedroom.
> 
> Plus I don't have to and I haven't seen any advantage to setting up vert with my plant count.
> 
> If I wanted to maximize production in a small space with unlimited plant count I would do a stadium or shelf vert grow. Then I might consider the tube. I wonder how hot the glass gets?


I haven't run one of these but i have run a vertical se. The heat is much easier to get rid of with verticals. I wonder what bulbs you use in these? I don't think ordinary de's can be ran vertical. If you have to use special bulbs they are prolly ridiculously expensive.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 25, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> I haven't run one of these but i have run a vertical se. The heat is much easier to get rid of with verticals. I wonder what bulbs you use in these? I don't think ordinary de's can be ran vertical. If you have to use special bulbs they are prolly ridiculously expensive.



That's a good point. Are de's universal mount?


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 25, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> I haven't run one of these but i have run a vertical se. The heat is much easier to get rid of with verticals. I wonder what bulbs you use in these? I don't think ordinary de's can be ran vertical. If you have to use special bulbs they are prolly ridiculously expensive.



Like I said I would need more fans to keep the heat from building up in the little room with low ceiling. I have to vent the humidity buildup too. 

And I heat my house with the exhaust ducted under the living room. Well supplemental heat. Saves a tank of propane a year. About 425 gallons sometimes.


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## pinner420 (Nov 25, 2017)

I


MichiganMedGrower said:


> Like I said I would need more fans to keep the heat from building up in the little room with low ceiling. I have to vent the humidity buildup too.
> 
> And I heat my house with the exhaust ducted under the living room. Well supplemental heat. Saves a tank of propane a year. About 425 gallons sometimes.


If you use the fan your currently using to cool your hoods and use it as an intake down low and your existing exhaust fan you should be in the neighborhood of exchanging your air 2x a minute. No more hitting your head on the edge or your hoods. Think of all the money you'll save not buying ducting clamps and hoods; oh and no more bees and flys mysteriously laying dead on your glass lens that you have to clean; yes one less thing to clean. It will shock you how much cooler your room runs. Only thing is you'll need to change three things if they are in place. 1. A digital thermometer will be useless unless shaded. 2. You'll enjoy 10% more photons reaching your ladies. 3. You will be forced to wear eye protection....


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## pinner420 (Nov 25, 2017)

You've seen this.


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## digging (Nov 25, 2017)

Hey @pinner420 with the above diagram, if one was to use the Vertical Grow Circular for vertical lighting (150.72 sq/ft ) would that square footage increase to 214.72 sq/ft, if you were to combine both vertical lighting fixtures (150.72 sq/ft ) along with horizontal light fixtures ( 64 sq/ft ) ?


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## pinner420 (Nov 25, 2017)

My instinct is cubic feet vs square feet is no. All I know is once you go vert you never go back to flat lander style unless your ceiling height could possibly have that much of an effect; however, for which by real world example I have two beauty rooms. One with 5 bulbs and 12ft ceilings power intake and exhaust-- and one with two bulbs and 7 ft ceilings passive intake-- My room with passive intake and lower ceilings produces nicer plants than my tricked out co2 every gadget under the sun taller room. I will venture to guess that my air exchange is just more aggressive and that's with old school 600's. Good ? though. Hell I've been thinking of putting one of those fancy quantum boards over top.. Currently I'm addicted to the 315's performance level for the price of entry.. Vertical growing really is addictive....


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## Nugachino (Nov 25, 2017)

Here's my shithouse attempt at getting some vert into the mix. Still nowhere near finished. 
The advantage comes from using the available surface area more effectively. Without having to be in a larger area.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 25, 2017)

pinner420 said:


> I
> 
> 
> If you use the fan your currently using to cool your hoods and use it as an intake down low and your existing exhaust fan you should be in the neighborhood of exchanging your air 2x a minute. No more hitting your head on the edge or your hoods. Think of all the money you'll save not buying ducting clamps and hoods; oh and no more bees and flys mysteriously laying dead on your glass lens that you have to clean; yes one less thing to clean. It will shock you how much cooler your room runs. Only thing is you'll need to change three things if they are in place. 1. A digital thermometer will be useless unless shaded. 2. You'll enjoy 10% more photons reaching your ladies. 3. You will be forced to wear eye protection....



All the tests I have seen show a 3-5% difference with the glass and easily made up with distance. 

I share cooling and heating with the veg room next door to the flower room. It uses an intake fan to bring in cooled air. And it's all integrated into our living area for heat and a/c but I get what you are saying and of course I have seen the images you posted after this. 

However. I have chimed in on many a vert thread. Most use trellises in a tent. Curious about yield. 

I am matching the highest I have seen with similar wattage with 2 overhead 600's. 

I run perpetual staggared plants with a simple 250 watt t-5 veg tent and then into the flower room as plants harvest. 

Output averages about 20oz per month and all the coconut oil we can use.

If I monocrop 4 plants at a time I could yield quite a bit higher. I always have different strains from new seeds now. 

I have more space in my basement and could grow 6' plants like you show and when I rebuild I can try it. I considered vert bare bulb trees for a while now. 

I do like the security of having the next plant ready soon all the time like I have it. And relatively short cycle easy veg system.


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## ANC (Nov 25, 2017)

Apart from the large surface area, Vert when used with the reflective material right behind the plants, leads to the loss of less light.

I know I use planted aquariums a lot as a reference, but when we are dialing in the amount of light used for them, we even take into account the colour of the gravel on the bottom. Light coloured sand and gravel can "increase" light levels (decrease losses), by as much as 40%.

Now, reflective surfaces are not all the same. Prismatic surfaced silver mylar will reflect 3 times the amount of light matt white does.


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## Ryante55 (Nov 25, 2017)

How long do you veg for vert grows? I always wanted to try it but thought the veg time would be too long to make it worth it


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## pinner420 (Nov 25, 2017)

I think your style is on point and the quality your generating is top shelf. Vert is just reorganized identical tools with a touch better averages in the cooling and light coverage department. Ive seen flatlander dudes pull great runs but it seems they have to work overtime scrogging etc. 6.5 foot plants are coming in at 1.75 lbs to 2.2 lbs. 4ft plants at 9zips to 1.2 lbs strain dependent yada yada. Once veg and flower are synced in rythem you wont miss any rotation based on plant size concerns you expressed.. it just flows and yes a tad more veg space is required no doubt but the rythem is same muscle memory. If you give it a go just to try another style i believe you will be happy with the ease and larger harvests. You eluded to plant counts hemming you up earlier and that is exactly the reason i chose to grow trees. After 7 years at it i prefer 3 points of light per tree. If my room was 2x bigger i could add 2 more plants in increase my efficiency but trying to tow the line and stay in my card limits and be a good kid! I use elbow to fist light to plant for spacing. "Sometimes a change is better than a rest" @Heath Robinson 

P.S. Its fucked riu lost all the pics to his threads....


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 26, 2017)

pinner420 said:


> I think your style is on point and the quality your generating is top shelf. Vert is just reorganized identical tools with a touch better averages in the cooling and light coverage department. Ive seen flatlander dudes pull great runs but it seems they have to work overtime scrogging etc. 6.5 foot plants are coming in at 1.75 lbs to 2.2 lbs. 4ft plants at 9zips to 1.2 lbs strain dependent yada yada. Once veg and flower are synced in rythem you wont miss any rotation based on plant size concerns you expressed.. it just flows and yes a tad more veg space is required no doubt but the rythem is same muscle memory. If you give it a go just to try another style i believe you will be happy with the ease and larger harvests. You eluded to plant counts hemming you up earlier and that is exactly the reason i chose to grow trees. After 7 years at it i prefer 3 points of light per tree. If my room was 2x bigger i could add 2 more plants in increase my efficiency but trying to tow the line and stay in my card limits and be a good kid! I use elbow to fist light to plant for spacing. "Sometimes a change is better than a rest" @Heath Robinson
> 
> P.S. Its fucked riu lost all the pics to his threads....



Oh I have seen Heath's threads. His trees are bigger than my room.


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## ttystikk (Nov 26, 2017)

Nugachino said:


> Here's my shithouse attempt at getting some vert into the mix. Still nowhere near finished. View attachment 4048411
> The advantage comes from using the available surface area more effectively. Without having to be in a larger area.


You're going to be disappointed; that half moon shape is designed to get the most out of an omnidirectional light source, like a light bulb. COB LED's directional output isn't going to hit the raised edges like you want.


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## Nugachino (Nov 26, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> You're going to be disappointed; that half moon shape is designed to get the most out of an omnidirectional light source, like a light bulb. COB LED's directional output isn't going to hit the raised edges like you want.


I'm not doubting your experience or info. But, are you sure? I don't have any reflectors on my cobs. And their output angle is fairly wide. 

Here's a tiny bit of progress for all to critique.


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## gr865 (Nov 26, 2017)

Nugachino said:


> I'm not doubting your experience or info. But, are you sure? I don't have any reflectors on my cobs. And their output angle is fairly wide.
> 
> Here's a tiny bit of progress for all to critique.


To get equal lighting across the screen your light source needs to cover the entire area equally. This is taken from the net but it shows that the light source is equal distance from the screen.

Also notice how the reflector reflects above the screen so it get light to the outer reaches of the screens.

It is basically a circular vert grow cut in half and laid on it's side. A parabolic scrog!
I really know nothing about this type of grow but just by appearance it looks that way to me.

Just took my morning dose of CO and things look a little different at the moment.


GR


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## Nugachino (Nov 26, 2017)

Point taken.


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## gr865 (Nov 26, 2017)

I have never done a scrog, but I do use a screen that I tie the branches back too, not weave it in and out through the screen. Doesn't that make harvesting a bitch. I have run a cool tube in the past but it was just for a horizontal grow. 
Don't run a cool tube with my vertical grow. I run the two 315's and the center fan keeps the heat away from the plants.

GR


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## pinner420 (Nov 26, 2017)

Room is a cozy 75 degrees 60%rh 960ppm co2. Jack Herer 1st week in the books.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 27, 2017)

nxsov180db said:


> I wanted to run DE's in a vertical grow before but I wasn't able to find any that were able to be hung vertically. I wonder how does a place sell a vertical fixture without supplying any vertical rated bulbs???


Its a pre order item, I suppose they are going to stock the bulbs.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Nov 27, 2017)

nxsov180db said:


> I've measured with a par meter with 600's and 1000's bare bulb vs cool tube and I could not find any measurable difference. Obviously the glass does not transmit 100% but it definitely transmits way more than just 90%.



Thanks. That is what I have seen online too.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 27, 2017)

nxsov180db said:


> As far as I know there are no DE bulbs that can be mounted vertically.


I think they will have a grow logic brand for them, which raises a lot of questions about price, performance and reliability.


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## digging (Nov 30, 2017)

I think people will be using the standard already available de bulbs, I don't think you will see vertical specific de bulbs.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 30, 2017)

digging said:


> I think people will be using the standard already available de bulbs, I don't think you will see vertical specific de bulbs.


I doubt standard DE will work with vertical orientation.


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## Nugachino (Nov 30, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> I doubt standard DE will work with vertical orientation.


Can they not be mounted certain ways? And why would that be?


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 30, 2017)

Nugachino said:


> Can they not be mounted certain ways? And why would that be?


Dunno, but some bulbs have to be operated in one or another orientation


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## Nugachino (Nov 30, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> Dunno, but some bulbs have to be operated in one or another orientation


That's strange. To me at least. Never noticed any bulbs needing an orientation. Then again. I don't normally play with HID lights.


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## jonsnow399 (Nov 30, 2017)

Nugachino said:


> That's strange. To me at least. Never noticed any bulbs needing an orientation. Then again. I don't normally play with HID lights.


Some bulbs are marked "U" for universal orientation and some are marked Hor.


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## Nugachino (Nov 30, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> Some bulbs are marked "U" for universal orientation and some are marked Hor.


Thanks for the information jon.


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## ttystikk (Dec 1, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> Some bulbs are marked "U" for universal orientation and some are marked Hor.


And some are marked V for vertical operation only.


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## ttystikk (Dec 1, 2017)

Nugachino said:


> Thanks for the information jon.


Certain MH and CMH/CDM style HID lamps either won't work in the wrong orientation or will suffer severely shortened lifespan.

I've never seen an HPS lamp that wasn't a universal mount, so a vertically mounted DE should work fine.

But LED lighting is a better choice for vertical growing for lots of reasons.


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## Nugachino (Dec 1, 2017)

So. Here's the "high school grade" Nugbox. I've got enough room to do eight (6L?) Buckets. 6 looks a little better. But 3 has the most even spacings. -edit- they're 12L buckets. I tested their capacity with an empty 3L milk container.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> And some are marked V for vertical operation only.



They are called "base up" not vertical.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Certain MH and CMH/CDM style HID lamps either won't work in the wrong orientation or will suffer severely shortened lifespan.
> 
> I've never seen an HPS lamp that wasn't a universal mount, so a vertically mounted DE should work fine.
> 
> But LED lighting is a better choice for vertical growing for lots of reasons.



Specifically mentions not to mount vertically. 

http://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/double-ended-hps/de-hps-installation-guide/

And as usual your opinion about Led is inappropriate here. 

And as usual you're answers are incorrect and unsupported.


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## jonsnow399 (Dec 1, 2017)

Damn MM, I am really conflicted here, as much as I enjoy seeing him proven wrong,it's not true in this case. lol Easy mistake to make, the warning was against trying to install vertically. Its good news for anyone wanting to try vertical de's.


1000W
Growth Chart
Lamp Replacement Guide
Initial Lumens 155000
Color Temperature 1950K
CRI 25
*Operating Position Universal *
Fixture Requirement Open Rated
ANSI Code S52
E-Ballast Compatible Yes
Warm-Up Time 5 Minutes
Hot Re-Strike Time 15 Minutes
5 Minutes
Hot Re-Strike Time 15 Minutes
Oh well, you'll get him next time!


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## digging (Dec 1, 2017)

So who makes a vertical designated DE CMH bulb ?


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## jonsnow399 (Dec 1, 2017)

digging said:


> So who makes a vertical designated DE CMH bulb ?


Growershouse makes a DE cmh, you would have to email them to find out if its universal mount.


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## ttystikk (Dec 1, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> They are called "base up" not vertical.


Not true. V is for vertical base up or down, it's in the codes if you care to read them.


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## ttystikk (Dec 1, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Specifically mentions not to mount vertically.
> 
> http://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/double-ended-hps/de-hps-installation-guide/
> 
> ...


Cry much?

LED is the better solution for vertical gardening. But you're welcome to keep living in the dark ages.

I just read the light manufacturer's own white papers. What do I know?


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## digging (Dec 1, 2017)

I have been in contact with a firm in China, about positioning of their DE bulbs, and this is what they emailed me back today …



Thanks your kind reply 

about our 630w double ended cmh bulb , When using our CMH 630W Double ended bulb, be sure to use "horizontal" installation; can not be "vertical" installed, otherwise it is easy to damage the bulb

our 630w DE bulbs are better to position by horizontally,it can help to protect the bulb very well

Looking forward your reply soon


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## jonsnow399 (Dec 1, 2017)

digging said:


> I have been in contact with a firm in China, about positioning of their DE bulbs, and this is what they emailed me back today …
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeh, they probably make the Growerhouse bulbs.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 1, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> Damn MM, I am really conflicted here, as much as I enjoy seeing him proven wrong,it's not true in this case. lol Easy mistake to make, the warning was against trying to install vertically. Its good news for anyone wanting to try vertical de's.
> 
> 
> 1000W
> ...


He did print an assumption as "educated" fact but I did only look up a couple of bulbs. 

What bulb are those stats for and where did you copy it from please? 

I am asking because I searched out light manufacturer info rather than re printed from a retail site for example. 

If I am wrong I am wrong. I will apologize. But now I want to know why?

Growers house and HTG both have printed pretty bad mis-information like offering open hoods with single jacketed cmh bulbs.


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## ttystikk (Dec 1, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> He did print an assumption as "educated" fact but I did only look up a couple of bulbs.
> 
> What bulb are those stats for and where did you copy it from please?
> 
> ...


Philips Lighting White Papers. Search by lamp. It's a great resource.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Not true. V is for vertical base up or down, it's in the codes if you care to read them.



Maybe post one? I looked before I posted. The code is BU 

Haven't seen base down or V. 

But if I'm wrong I stand corrected. About the orientation of DE bulbs too if Hortilux is printing warnings for no reason. 

Sorry. But learn to post proof before you speak with authority. You have been quite incorrect in the past. And never post any proof. And that is the main problem with Grow sites.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Cry much?
> 
> LED is the better solution for vertical gardening. But you're welcome to keep living in the dark ages.
> 
> I just read the light manufacturer's own white papers. What do I know?



See previous response. 

Never heard the term white papers before. Can I see one? 

And there is nothing better with hanging your plants against the wall and needing a whole wall of lights to actually cover them. 

I could buy another house here with your build and operating costs. 

But you show no greater output per square foot than an average Grow. And poor quality.


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## jonsnow399 (Dec 1, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> He did print an assumption as "educated" fact but I did only look up a couple of bulbs.
> 
> What bulb are those stats for and where did you copy it from please?
> 
> ...


As Popeye used to say "Gee, this is embarraskin! Whip yer apologies out Matey!"
It is from the manufacturer, the same link you posted, but you have to select wattage to see the specs.
This is the direct link. 
http://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/double-ended-hps/#1505830586157-5d5b45d4-f0d0


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## ttystikk (Dec 1, 2017)

From now on, do your own homework.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 1, 2017)

jonsnow399 said:


> As Popeye used to say "Gee, this is embarraskin! Whip yer apologies out Matey!"
> It is from the manufacturer, the same link you posted, but you have to select wattage to see the specs.
> This is the direct link.
> http://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/double-ended-hps/#1505830586157-5d5b45d4-f0d0



Huh. My phone shows no link or button where it says select wattages. 

So is it universal and fine or is it recommended to be horizontal? They say both. 

But like I said. I am wrong if it is universal mount. Sorry. I should have researched further. 

I got a question now though. Know if universal mount means open or closed reflector instead of what we are arguing about that I shouldn't have started? Lol


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> View attachment 4051597
> From now on, do your own homework.



That's the kind of bulb the catalog labeled BU for base up too. 

Didn't you say you had an information paper? 

I am sorry if that v means vertical. I did research. Seems there is some conflicting info on both things I said. 

None of the bulbs I have used are marked that way so I have not seen a bulb stamp like that in person. 

Is the U for universal and is that open or closed fixture?


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## ttystikk (Dec 2, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> That's the kind of bulb the catalog labeled BU for base up too.
> 
> Didn't you say you had an information paper?
> 
> ...


I forget what the U meant, it wasn't related to orientation.

Every lamp has a code. In the case of Philips you Google the coffee and white paper and it usually comes up.

This particular lamp is an 860W CDM. It must run in a ballast at less than 140Hz (or close), so in practical terms that means magnetic. It's rated for 860W on 208V, but also runs fine at 1000W on 240V or 277V. Many of the older magnetic ballasts had internal wiring that could be switched so the unit would run on any of the above, or 120V. The 860W option was how Philips could call it an 'energy saver' lamp, lol 

4K is the Kelvin temperature; in use they actually were all over the place. They might average 4000K, but some looked blue, others green- and one ran with a very clear purple tinge lol

It's an open rated lamp. It has an inner quartz jacket wrapped in wire. I had the pit pop in a few on initial startup and it was very obvious why they went to such trouble to contain it.

They were rated to last a couple years. They were not efficient, that's due to the magnetic ballast. I did scrounge a couple of low frequency square wave digital ballasts and they ran brighter on them- but more green.

They made awesome frosty buds but fluffy due to all the infrared they put out.

They were a good way to step up from HPS while running vertical and saving up for LED. 

If I had it to do over, I'd run 315W CMH; same tech, square wave ballast maximises efficiency, lower watts means I can spread them out for better light distribution.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Dec 2, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> I forget what the U meant, it wasn't related to orientation.
> 
> Every lamp has a code. In the case of Philips you Google the coffee and white paper and it usually comes up.
> 
> ...



I only asked what the u meant. 

And for anything else that showed the v. 

You keep talking of stepping up from hps but first chose a less efficient bulb. 

And you had to mention led again. 

Well you keep bringing it up so here is some honest info. I have tested these lamps for a about a year in the perpetual Grow. So about 50 plants have been harvested and 3 rounds of 3 clones a few ways. 

According to everyone who shares them. Our flowers are more potent under the 600w Hortilux hps than the Phillips 315 3100k. And I get a 30% bonus in yield over the cmh too.

They do look prettier under the more natural light. The first plant I moved from under the hps across the room to the cmh really seemed to pop. 

But it's all hype. 315 watts is a limiting factor.


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## gr865 (Dec 2, 2017)

Is the "U" for Universal orientation?


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## Dave455 (Dec 2, 2017)

Flowki said:


> I get what you are saying completely on the logistic/risk parts.
> 
> The light penetration thing, although a good point I still disagree with. You may get deeper penetration (straight face) if in a 3x3 under normal grow conditions but the density of buds the lower you get suffers, this is why the likes of UB topping for 4 is out dated if pushing for weight. If you spread out that canopy over a cage it is obviously less dense but the area will increase a lot more. The most important part is the light hitting most of the thin canopy at optimal intensity. Essentially every bud is going to have the density of top bud and although smaller in size, they will out weigh donkey dicks volume wise.
> 
> In an ideal situation you would first max out surface area canopy. With that maxed out you would also max out light intensity/spread to cover that area. Once that's maxed out you would have no other real option but to increase canopy density where possible, but that could detract from initial surface area.


Isn't regular scrog easier ?


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## ttystikk (Dec 2, 2017)

gr865 said:


> Is the "U" for Universal orientation?


Not in the case of the lamp I'm using as an example.

There are universal orientation lamps though.


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## Flowki (Dec 2, 2017)

Dave455 said:


> Isn't regular scrog easier ?


Easier perhaps but with a single light source the spread intensity over scrogs mid to outer canopy area degrades. A stadium canopy setup over the same area (when done right) will keep more of the foliage in range, slightly increase foliage amount and will in turn out do scrog by 10%+ while not that much harder to do. Next step up from that is ofc vert.

If you have multiple low powered light source to spread the intensity then the above is kinda moot, unless you have more roof than floor space.


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## pinner420 (Dec 10, 2017)

https://bestseedbank.com/yield-boosters-vertical-lighting/


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## ttystikk (Dec 12, 2017)

pinner420 said:


> https://bestseedbank.com/yield-boosters-vertical-lighting/


Old school, but a fun read.


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