# Pro's and con's going vertical.



## Ravioli2013 (Mar 15, 2013)

Hey.

I'm doing my research on starting growing herbs  and I've come across vertical systems. Month or so ago i've seen somebody post this http://vertexhydroponics.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59 Vertical System here. And altho i've seen some vertical towers that promisse you up to 300(!) plants on 2mx2mx2m space, it's seems kind of riddiculous. These systems offers 72 to 92 plants at that space. And I've got to say, that's just awesome! Obviously tho, it will have some downsides to it, can you help me point it out?

As pro's i see the amount of plants, not wasting any potentional light, effective use of space.

As con's i think they would wield way less bud then normal hydro system would. But what i can't estimate, is how much less. Is it possible to get 50-100g dry plant?
By the way, what is usual wield of indoor plants? I've never seen any particulare number, allways just "well yeah some strains got more then the others, this one will get you medium of bud".


And while I'm at it, do you know any other modern, high tech or whatsoever good hydroponic tower systems? Price is not really an issue.

Thanks in advance for your time.

//edit: I just came accross this: https://www.4hydro.com/bonzai-360-rotating-hydroponics-system it looks pretty legit, but tell me, why you wouldn't go for it (besides the price).


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## Ou8aCracker2 (Mar 16, 2013)

Depends on method of vert growing you choose...vert sog,vert scrog,donut,etc.

I'll try to list pro's & cons of each method.

1) Vert SoG

Pro's:
Highest yeilding of all vert growing methods due to placing alot of plants close together up and down the walls of the grow (octagons seem better than squares where corner plants lack due to being further from the light,as well as allowing plants more space than a circular/cylindrical shape),being sure to monocrop (use rooted/vegged clones of the same size from the same mom).

Con:
that's a lot of plants we're talking about,depending on size of grow it could be 100+ plants just in flower,not accounting for all the moms you'll need to keep up with cuttings for each flip room but all the vegging plants too.Normal vert sog's I see use between 64 and 100 plants.


2) Vertical Donut (plants arranged in a circle around a vertically hung bare bulb).

Pro's:
Great introduction to vert growing for newcomers to vert.

Allows you to grow medium to large plants depending on space,lights,and coverage of lights.If using 600w HPS's & wanting 6' plants with dense nug from top to bottom,use 2x 600w lights.

Will allow horizontal growers that can't seem to get any better if a GPW with there horizontal space,light,genetics,etc to up their bottom line yeilds.

Lower plant numbers therefore less chance of fed's and federal prosecution if busted.Also helps medical growers with plant number limits get more per harvest.

Con's:
Not the best choice for commercial growing due to long veg times which in turn leads to less harvests per year.

Vert Scrog (basically a vert donut with a screen fastened into a cylinder,and tucking growth shoots into openings like a normal scrog)...pretty much the same as a donut...

3) Tree's HR style

Pro's:
Big yields
Keeps plant numbers down
Less plants to mess with

Con's:
Alot of lighting needed making for higher electric bills.
Less harvests per year due to having to veg for sooo long.


You would think a normal hydro system growing horizontally would do better,but that's okay...I'll help you see the light.

You see,when growing horizontal/flat canopy you are growing two dimensionally.By growing vertical we are now growing three dimensionally.

In a 3'x3'x6' grow tent growing two dimensionally/horizontal we can only take advantage of a 3'x3' or 9 square foot canopy.

Now,by switching to vertical growing in the same tent with a bulb hung vertical in the center we are taking advantage of growing three dimensionally...the measurement of one wall in this 3'x3'x6' grow tent is 3'x6' or 18 square feet (that's twice the canopy area in the same tent,just by switching vertical...but wait,there are four walls all equal in size,so that is 64 square feet of canopy...that's 7x more canopy area than a horizontal grow in the same tent.

Now,since normally one would use a 600w HPS per 3'x3' flat canopy and only allow plants to be 3' tall at finish of flowering (600w HPS's light can't penetrate a canopy of more than 3' very well) we would allow plants grown vertically to finish at 3' tall (plant height even to spread of light) so effectively we are using four walls which each measure 3'x3' or 9 square feet each,but since there are four walls and we're growing vertically we have an effective canopy of 36 square feet...that's 4x more canopy than plants being 3' tall at finish in a 3'x3' horizontal grow.

So,as you can see you get a lot more canopy space by switching to vertical which in return you get more yield,and virtually no larf (depending on light spread in relation to plant height),just solid dense nugg from top to bottom.

As you can see,you get all that extra.canopy space in the same size room as before.If wanting thay canopy space in a horizontal grow you would need now a larger grow area as well as more lights...Vertical FTMFW!


Hope that opened your eyes (and minds eye) to vertical growing and it's pro's and cons.


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## bass1014 (Mar 16, 2013)

+rep on the info here..i was kinda wondering if i shove all 5 of my 5 gallon airo buckets against my walls and drop my 1000watt bulb in the center of them ,then take wire mesh and pin that over them against the wall will that give me more yield off my plant vs the normal hooded method with them centered and mylar on the walls??


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## smoke and coke (Mar 16, 2013)

i do a vertical stadium grow.


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## Ou8aCracker2 (Mar 16, 2013)

bass1014 said:


> +rep on the info here..i was kinda wondering if i shove all 5 of my 5 gallon airo buckets against my walls and drop my 1000watt bulb in the center of them ,then take wire mesh and pin that over them against the wall will that give me more yield off my plant vs the normal hooded method with them centered and mylar on the walls??


It's a possibility but I have no clue what size area you're using,how big your plants are,their structure (topped,untopped,LST,etc).

What I would do is finish your grow horizontal and be sure to have cuts of the same mom ready to veg after rooting.Hang your bulb bare (no cooltubes unless absolutely necessary) Bulb vertical in the center.If doing only four plants I'd attach some construction fence to the walls and then place one plant per wall and training as needed to basically fill up a good 1/2 to 2/3 of the screen before flipping to 12/12...depending on stretch of your particular strain Of course.

If doing 5 plants you may want to go with one in each corner or cornerish,with one up front (depending on size of grow space,containers,plants,etc).

Be sure to veg these rooted clones around a vertical bulb as plants vegged vertical grow different from plants vegged under a horizontal light.With horizontal all sides/branches grow uniform,with vertical plants grow up but they themselves aling with branches grow toward the light,so just spread side branches,pull the back branches (that would otherwise get little/no light and rob energy from other parts of the plant thay could be better focused on prime nugg production) forward (through others if you have to) so they receive Prime lighting and fill up any gaps in the canopy.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 8, 2013)

Good info Ou8aCracker2, but I just need to clarify a few things . . .



Ou8aCracker2 said:


> 2) Vertical Donut (plants arranged in a circle around a vertically hung bare bulb).
> 
> Con's:
> *Not the best choice for commercial growing due to long veg times which in turn leads to less harvests per year.*
> ...


Both of these points are moot if you have a separate veg chamber and veg outside your flowering chamber. Sativas and sativa hybrids tend to do best in vertical grows, and usually flower for about 8-10 weeks. That's plenty of time to take clones and veg the next round of plants before harvest. In fact, mine usually take 4-5 weeks to clone and veg until they are big enough to flower. This doesn't hurt commercial production at all.



Ou8aCracker2 said:


> *Be sure to veg these rooted clones around a vertical bulb* as plants vegged vertical grow different from plants vegged under a horizontal light.


Actually, in my opinion - and practice - you are better off vegging under a horizontal light, and using that horizontal light to induce stretch by raising it higher above the vegging clones. By stretching your plants before you put them into the vertical flower chamber, you can take advantage of the extra head height. You will find that your "stretched" plants will start to fill in as they flower vertically. This won't happen if your plants stay short and squat - especially if you are using two vertical bulbs on top of each other (like I do) or a larger 1000w bulb.

If you veg next to a vertical light, you are simply inducing the plant to bush out on one side instead of stretching upwards - unless you raise your vertical bulb to induce stretch. In which case, you are wasting the vertical aspect by having the bulb up too high.

Hope this helps.


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## 1itsme (Apr 9, 2013)

bass1014 said:


> +rep on the info here..i was kinda wondering if i shove all 5 of my 5 gallon airo buckets against my walls and drop my 1000watt bulb in the center of them ,then take wire mesh and pin that over them against the wall will that give me more yield off my plant vs the normal hooded method with them centered and mylar on the walls??


the short answer is yes. you get better light distribution with vert and more canopy space for the same sized grow area. i would b careful about having the plants against the wall tho you need to be able to get in there, and also leaves up against the wall tend to get mold, pm... easily. agree 100% with prawn connery's post about veg. i use a seperate veg/clone area with t8 shop lights and it works good for me. 
as to the op's question the con would imo be keeping up with that many clones. although, that isnt realy different from any other sog. if your new to growing i would prob recomend starting with a few plants in coco or another soil-less and not trying to jump in to a high intensity hydro, vert sog grow. it would be alot easier to lern to grow with a more forgiving set up.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 9, 2013)

^ That's very true about needing to access your plants, as well as mold problems with leaves being pressed up against a wall (where moisture and powdery mildew accumulate).

Also, coco rocks - you will never look back once you try it. I've grown in everything from soil to bubbler buckets, flood-and-drain, recirculating hydro etc, and nothing bests the reliability and growth of coco. It is not as fast as, say, aeroponics, but is much more reliable. You won't lose a crop if your timers or pumps break down.

The best thing to do is build a cage around the bare bulbs, with a floor fan pointing upwards to cool them (as well as aerate the plants). Something similar to this old set-up I had (my new set-up has 2x600bulbs hanging on top of each other).

Sorry for the funny angle (yes, everything is vertical!), it's just the way I took the photo . . .


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## 1itsme (Apr 9, 2013)

i've seen a few ppl doing that with the cage it seems like an easy way to deal with the canopy. im using bamboo stakes to make individual 2x4 trelisses for each plant so that i can move them whenever i want.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 9, 2013)

The beauty of the cage is it allows you to "weave" all your branches into a big column and fill all the space. It's just like a vertical scrog, where instead of weaving branches and buds through a horizontal net to even them out, you do it around the cage.The above photo is not a good example, because they're indicas, which don't branch out much. With branchy sativas, it works great. I might take a pic of my setup later tonight, as I have a big haze plant growing which has been woven around the cage and is a much better example . . .

BTW, do I need 10 posts or something before I can PM people and/or give them rep? I can't find a rep control panel anywhere . . .


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## smoke and coke (Apr 9, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> The beauty of the cage is it allows you to "weave" all your branches into a big column and fill all the space. It's just like a vertical scrog, where instead of weaving branches and buds through a horizontal net to even them out, you do it around the cage.The above photo is not a good example, because they're indicas, which don't branch out much. With branchy sativas, it works great. I might take a pic of my setup later tonight, as I have a big haze plant growing which has been woven around the cage and is a much better example . . .
> 
> BTW, do I need 10 posts or something before I can PM people and/or give them rep? I can't find a rep control panel anywhere . . .


hey prawn maybe it's kinda like this pic? lmao look familar?


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 9, 2013)

LOL! Where'd you find that? Yep, that's my old set-up alright - right down to the bit of yellow tape around the chord! (Which I burnt on a previous vertical set-up.)

Man, I'm still pissed about all my photos and write-ups disappearing after Gad claimed PG's server was "stolen". That's why it's taken me so long (almost five years) to start re-posting on canna sites.

Thanks for the dejavu!


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 9, 2013)

Well bugger me! You've even got a photo of my VERY FIRST vertical grow from 2004! This was a 600w single bulb vertical grow (note yellow tape on chord, LOL!) using four 5-gallon bubblers. The strains were two Swiss Bliss and two Nebulaze (Nebula x SSH). The total yield was about 18oz.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 9, 2013)

Here's what I'm talking about: by using the cage as a form of srog, you can weave all your branches through it to fill all the gaps so that you maximise your light. It's also good for managing tall, banchy sativas - like the haze plant in this photo - by bending them over and securing them in the wire latticework.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 9, 2013)

BTW, that plant almost died after I had a pump timer failure. Luckily I was growing in coco - which retained enough moisture to keep it alive for two days - otherwise I would have lost the entire crop at about 6 weeks of flowering.

Coco will save your arse! Trust me. The number of times it has saved my crop due to timer failures - which are very common - is enough for me to never go back to hydro again. It also holds up very well in hot climates - kiss goodbye to root rot and other temperature-related issues with hydro.

And sorry for turbo-posting - I'm trying to get my post count up a bit so people don't think I'm a newb


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## 1itsme (Apr 10, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> Here's what I'm talking about: by using the cage as a form of srog, you can weave all your branches through it to fill all the gaps so that you maximise your light. It's also good for managing tall, banchy sativas - like the haze plant in this photo - by bending them over and securing them in the wire latticework.


 nice spiral lol. i knew id seen those photos b4 but i couldnt rem when.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 10, 2013)

Well, I didn't invent vertical growing - but I sure as hell have promoted it over the years, LOL! And I do like my sativas . . . That's one reason why I love vertical growing, because it allows you to manage tall plants indoors. There's no way I would attempt to grow a haze under a horizontal light and hood.


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## smoke and coke (Apr 10, 2013)

Prawn Connery said:


> LOL! Where'd you find that? Yep, that's my old set-up alright - right down to the bit of yellow tape around the chord! (Which I burnt on a previous vertical set-up.)
> 
> Man, I'm still pissed about all my photos and write-ups disappearing after Gad claimed PG's server was "stolen". That's why it's taken me so long (almost five years) to start re-posting on canna sites.
> 
> Thanks for the dejavu!



i have had a few of your photos since just before planet ganja shut down. i came here right after. you started me on vertical growing and thank you.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 10, 2013)

You're welcome. It's taken a bit of time for me to find my way, but I hope to help out a bit in the Vertical Growing forum if I can. After all, its my favourite style of growing.


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## kannabinoyd (Apr 15, 2013)

so basically vert growing is the bomb...basically.........................................................?


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## smoke and coke (Apr 15, 2013)

kannabinoyd said:


> so basically vert growing is the bomb...basically.........................................................?


well basically any style of grow can be bomb once you get it dialed in. i dont have the space for a vertical so i do a vertical stadium grow using indicas. i know an indica isn't the best for vertical, but i can gain a little more sq. ft. this way versus a flat grow.


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## Prawn Connery (Apr 15, 2013)

My opinion of vertical growing is that it will always outyield horizontal growing when both are dialed in. The reason is simple: when you hang a bulb vertically and place plants all around it, most of the light being produced is shining directly on a plant, maximising its effects. When you hang a bulb horizontally, you will notice that only about a quart of that bulb is shining directly on the plants below - the rest (75%) is being reflected off a hood.

There is an equation where for every doubling of distance, there is a four-fold reduction in lumens (exponential), which means if light has to travel twice as far to reach a plant, it only carries a quarter of its original photons. If you draw a line from your bulb up to the reflector and then down again - where it reaches the plant - you will see that the light has to travel at least twice as far - which quarters it's output.

There are some advanced hoods on the market now that claim to be about 70-75% efficient - that is, they reflect 70-75% of the light produced. A vertical bulb is at least 80-90% efficient to begin with (a small amount of light escapes through the top and bottom of the bulb that doesn't reach the plants). Furthermore, once that reflector gets dirty, the surface loses its ability to reflect - this is compounded in sealed-glass reflectors, as the glass gets dirty and filters the light (that's why I don't use cool tubes - they get dirty easily).

The other advantage of vertical growing is you can keep the bulb very cool by blowing a floor fan on it - which allows you to place the plants very close to the bulb. Hoods and reflectors capture heat. You can duct that heat away, but the metal hood will conduct at least some of the heat and stay warm. Plus with a bare bulb, you also save money on reflectors, ducting and fans.

Finally, vertical bulbs allow you to take advanatge of head height if you have it. So you can use a smaller footprint for the same-sized grow, or you can simply grow your favourite sativas - like I do - without having to worry about them getting too tall.

Would you believe I actually veg under a horizontal light? That's only because I don't have much head height in my veg/cloning chamber, and I am not so much concerned with rapid growth, as I have 8-10 weeks of flowering time to clone and veg before my new plants start to flower.

EDIT: Here's what I'm talking about with light hoods and light distance:


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## Happy Haze (Sep 24, 2013)

Very informative thread guys


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## OGEvilgenius (Sep 26, 2013)

I liked that first reply, but I just wanted to note that Heath didn't veg that long for his massive trees. Certainly not anywhere near where it would cost him harvests a year. He just had amazing growth rates due to the hydroponic setup he designed. As well as being a master grower etc.


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