# Using marijuana as part of your prayer life if your a Christian..



## carl.burnette (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi folks. Im not starting a debate into Christianity or any other form of religion. I am looking to talk to anyone (if there is anyone) who may be or have gone throught what I am.

I have been a Christian for probably 25 years or so. My father became a pastor when I was a teenager & have gone to chruch ever since.

In all that time I have never really felt close to God or Christ. None of it made any sense at all. All the rules & regulations & whatnot. 

I stopped going to church abuot 3 years ago & had no guilt at all (which I thought was wierd a bit) 

About 1.5 year ago, I started reading my bible. Just a bit at first, then more & more. Now I read it perhaps an hour per day. I start every day with a bit of weed & I read my bible then pray.

My walk has never been so close to the Lord ever. He has opened my eyes to so many things. 

It's almost like he hit the reset button on my beliefs, but now its not going through the motions but its real to me. Jesus never told us to go protest movies, or to fight gay marriage or to force people to make changes in their lives. Never says don't smoke weed, or any other commands like that. He says if your doing something & someone gets offeneded by it stop which is what you would want someone to do for you. (I hope I am getting my point across. Not a great speaker) 

That was up the the person, not the people to force them to think a certain way.

I discoved that its ok to say I don't know & it doesn't matter. Jesus came to give us freedom from all the laws & rules. 

Love God more than anything & others as you do yourself. The rest is ALL window dressing. Day of worship, how much to give ect. Hard fast rules was what he was against. instead of 1 day per week we are to worship every day in every way. Be nice to everyone. Put others before yourself. 

THis is what the Lord has revealed to me with weed, prayer & bible study. Im not a theologian, bible student or anything else. But I think I'm on to something here.. 

Anyways, I hope this starts up a dialect with like thinking people. I can't be the only one who's experienced this.

Later Gaters


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## trueg115 (Mar 15, 2013)

I have a interesting story, I never knew anything about Christianity and when I used to smoke, one night I had a very vivid and intense experience where the Holy Spirit visited me and told me about Jesus ( I did not see anything but rather heard a voice inside me like John speaks of)
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever, the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." John 14

Anyways, up to that point in my life, if anyone would have asked me about if I knew Jesus, I probably would have assumed you were talking about a spanish guy down the street, I literally knew nothing about Christ. Once that night happened, I was instructed to get a bible and to give up weed along with a few other things. Safe to say, about 3 years later, I am not who I used to be at all, completely changed, (starting to grow again as the Lord has shown me it is okay for me now) I can actually say I know Christ and am a active member of the true church that is alive, though the more I look at the physical church the more pharisees I see. My goal is to change this. 

As for what i say to you, that is awesome to hear, if smoking does help you in your prayer and you are still staying sober to resist the devil and it isn't leading you into sin then by all means continue.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 15, 2013)

I like your thinking. Now how do we do it?

Its funny you say vivid intense experience.

Just this morning (havent even told the wife yet) I have been really wondering where God wants me to be. Bible school, church etc, more kids, some kind of helping people etc. I am lost that way. I am a very successful person (Good job, fabulous wife & kids. Hell I even got a Jeep  but I feel God has something for me. ). I mean its been weighing down on me for a while now. THis morning I was in the kitchen & I was just sitting there watching the news & I started to pray about it & I swear out of nowhere I heard "You are" 

This was 6:30 am no one else was around, i was in my kitchen having coffee. There was no lights, no nothing spectacular. Just this audible "You are."

That was it.

Well I looked around dumbfounded.. 

That was it, I know I'm right were he wants me to be. That's it. I dont know any more than that. I have no revelation of things to come, no special message to the world or anything like that.

But I know I'm right where God wants me & I hope (know) He continues to work in my life. 

Wow.. I think its fantastic that I can relate to an extent to your story.

either that or we;re both nuts  

As for pot, it really hit me when I read that nothing that goes into a man kills him, its what comes out of his mouth. Pot like everything else can be used for good. Actaully the bible says that everythign workd for the good of the Lord. I still think its wrong to get totally stoned just the same way I think its wrong to get totally wasted drunk.

But that's for me. You may see it differnet & I will certainly not judge. Not my job.

That;s the kind of freedom I've gotten out of Christ.

Its fantastic.. can't wait to see what's next 

Later


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## markl (Mar 15, 2013)

You might be interested in a book called " The Naked Gospel" by Andrew Farley. It opened my eyes to many things.

As for pot usage, mine is primarily for helping me sleep without chemical drugs.


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## trueg115 (Mar 15, 2013)

That is awesome to hear, we will definitely have some good conversations. What I now know, though I don't know very much yet ( "the man who thinks he knows does not yet know as he ought to know" Corinthians) is so vast compared to 3 years ago. I have seen and been through things that 4 years ago I too would have considered crazy or nuts. All I can say is the things that happened in the New testament and Old are completely possible with God and not overly exaggerated stories. I am waiting for the day that Acts becomes alive again.

Just look at it this way, do you really think its a coincidence that the same day I share my story with you (which I have never really shared online before with anyone, only close friends) is the same day you hear an audible voice? 

And I agree wholeheartidly that we arent to get stoned to an extent of not being sober and the same goes with being drunk, Jesus and the apostles testify to that, along with the Old testament prophets.

I have a feeling something very big is in store for you. 

For you, I would charge you to study up on the Holy Spirit and how to listen to it, that is where it all changed for me after my event. And another suggestion is trust no one ( to an extent of only trusting those you know are guided by the Spirit), Jesus had many pharisees in his days, and we will have many as well. If you dont know, pharisees are people that look like they are following God but in their hearts they are completely separate from it. Wolves in sheeps clothing, watch out. You will know them by their fruit, as Jesus said, or their actions and their love (or lack of it)


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## carl.burnette (Mar 15, 2013)

I have always prayed for wisdom & decernment. I've done that for 20 plus years but in the past month or so I have been praying ernestly for the inflowing of the Holy Spirit. Since I've been doing this I have seen the world in a different light.

I work with lots of rich people (I am not, but I do ok) & I see weathly & worldly thing differently now. The only reason anyone has anythign is because God allows them to. I can honestly say that in the past 4 months I have not been jealous of anything other than I have to admit I was a bit enveous when I watched (of all things) 19 & counting I think its called? THe Duggers? This would not normally be something I would watch btw.

It was on this morning & I happened to see when flipping to CNN. I saw a family huge & everyone working together & I swear I never felt so little in my life. I work for money & the house, bills & of course the Jeep  & I saw that family & would have traded everythig I own to have that. I dont mean the house or the trip or fame, I mean the family. Thats when it happend this morning. I was praying because I felt THAT's what I should be doing. Get a mess of kids (I have 3) I can afford more. That's what I was praying about this morning when I was questioning God where I was going in my life. I felt so inadequate asking God where he wanted to me to go *& what he wanted me to do. Have I been doing the wrong thing with my life? etc. Am I doing what God has planned for me? Am I walking in His will? 

This was some serious soul searching & deep prayer for a 5 minute sitting in the kitchen drinking coffee alone with God moment..

I am no scholar by any means, but I think or Elisha ? was listening for God in the wilderness, big winds & bad weather. No God, then a small still voice in the stillness.

Holy crap I hope Im not loosing my mind. I cant afford a divorce.  (Just kidding, wifes a believer too, honestly havent talked to her about this because I wanted to be sure I wasnt loosing my mind.. Im being honest here)

It gets deeper to, since asking the Holy Spirit to come on in. 

I see things like the Big Bang Theory (not the show.. Although I do love that show) I see it as validating that God spoke the universe into excisitance. I see everything in nature just screams out God did this. 

I want to study all the time to find out for myself, not just listen to others as I did for the first 25 years or so. 

Just curious, have you spoke to anyone about this in person? I know I havent.. I'm afraid I don't know the proper vocaublary or just don't know enough to share. I dont want to fuck up Gods work.. but then I read when Jesus says dont worry about knowing what to say, the Holy Spirit will provide the words. This promise really helps. I;ve noticed a few times I've had poeple jsut start talking to me & religion or something of that sort will come up & I used to get scared abit. Im not shy & talk to rooms of (not hundreds) 10's of people & give sales presentations & whatnot. Not scared to talk, just pertified that I would say the wrong thing & lead someone astray by error. 

I dont fear that any more & I also dont talk about it as much, but when I do its like I have this incredible confidence. When I say I dont talk about it much I mean actual words. Like speak for 20 minutes. I've noticed the last month or so I have passed on some things, very minor little things about ie Im a Christian but I smoke pot.. Get a big dump for that.. my response was tiny (few words) but I felt I was speaking the truth. Now I find there are others like me trying to follow Gods will & not even knowing it.

Im rambling.. damn I cant type as fast as I can think... I need Dragon Speak 

I can honeslty say that I think I have the Holy Spirit. I've never spoke in tongues or anthing like that, but since I prayed for it sincerly, My anxiety, stage fright, worry etc is gone or leaving. It's almost impossible to describe without coming off as a nut case.. But I figure fark it... If anyone thinks Im a nut case so be it. 

We are a pecular people


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## trueg115 (Mar 15, 2013)

We certainly are, we are aliens and strangers in this world, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

As far as speaking in tongues and other gifts, those will come in time, and they do not validate if you are a christian or if you have the Holy Spirit or now. Do I have soem gifts? Most certainly but does that mean im a christian? No, what makes me and you a christian is that we have faith in Jesus Christ and do the will of the Father. Faith without works is dead. 

Also, do not fear what they will think, you'd be surprised that more people will be open to the idea of God speaking to you then those that wont want to hear it. Though it is somethign witha very bad stigma due to false prophets and people claiming God speaks to them but it is either Satan or their own imagination, there are real people that truly hear from the lord out there as Jesus did. I too was afraid at first of telling people, but I was shown many scriptures such as the one you posted about the Holy Spirit speaking through you. This gave me confidence and next thing I knew I was able to tell many people about it, I am now at a point in my life where I am not afraid to testify about it and many people actually see me as one that the Lord has spoken to, whereas before there was a lot of skepticism, but what changed their minds? My truth and the lord showing himself to be with me because of my faith. SO keep your faith. Read about Moses in Exodus, look at how moses was when he was called, he said he was of slow speech and the Lord replied saying " Did not I create the mouth and the tongue? I will be with you and teach you what to say"

3 years ago, I didnt tell anyone besides people very close to me and now i'm at a point of discernment where I know who to tell and who not to tell. Jesus said "I send you out like sheep among wolves, therefore be as wise as serpents yet as innocent as doves.
You may be surprised at your wifes response. And if it isn't how you would have hoped, give it time. 

You arent losing your mind though, in the past 3 years I have seen many christians open up to the truth about the bible and the Holy Spirit, ive seen one man taht grew up in an independent fundamental baptist church open up to every spiritual gift even to a point of hearing from the lord and he is the single strongest man of God I currently know right now, when he started off as the weakest. Anything is possible. If you dont know much about fundamental baptist, they are a denomination that is very phariseetical in general (of course there are true beleivers in it) and shun any form of the work of the Holy Spirit. 

Also, as you do learn about the work of the holy Spirit, make sure you stick to wha the bible says about how to let Him guide you, a lot of pentecostal churches do it out of order, when God clearly warns through Paul that there is to be order in the church. That is why the holy Spirit currently has a bad vibe about it in most modern churches, because people are using the gifts of the Spirit wrongly and incorrectly and not according to the word of God. Speaking in tongues is good, praying is good, listening and hearing the Lord is good, but its all about faith expressing itself through love, if anything goes outside of that then it creates disorder. For instance, if I am in church and start to speak in tongues in front of everyone, who can understand me? It is better for me to speak with my mind. 

You will soon get over being seen as a nut case, read about all the times people thought the apostle Paul was foolish for what he said or did, even his very own brothers and sisters deserted him time and time again for it, just like they did to Jesus. 
It says "If we are in our mind, it is for your sake, but if we are out of our mind (sounding crazy) it is for Gods. There is a time and place for everything, a time to speak about supernatural things and events, and a time to refrain from it. 

Glad to see where you're headed brother!


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## Mister Sister (Mar 15, 2013)

I am grateful for having read the above conversation. Kudos to you folks.


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 16, 2013)

Have you read the Bible in its entirety?


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## trueg115 (Mar 16, 2013)

Multiple times


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 16, 2013)

How do you reconcile the belief that the Bible and its teachings are inherently good while it simultaneously discriminates against women, homosexuals and science?


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## bud nugbong (Mar 16, 2013)

smoking cannbis is a sin, your going to hell. (if you belive in that)


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## trueg115 (Mar 16, 2013)

any discrimination is not what you would think. Is homosexuality any different of a sin in the bible then lust for another woman from a heterosexual man? Absolutely not. Jesus said "if a man looks at a woman lustfully he has already committed adultery in his heart with her." The sin of adultery is just as bad as the sin of homosexuality. both are sexual perversion and immorality. In the context of marriage, it is right for a man and a woman to marry and have sex, it is not right for homosexuals to. This was never intended in the first place, doesn't the very nature of things tell you that a man ought not to be with a man? Even the very act of it isnt right according to how things are created. The penis is meant to go into the vagina for intercourse, it is plainly seen and Jesus testifies to this as well by what has been created. 

Can a homosexual become a christian? Absolutely! I know many homosexuals that have become born again by the blood of Christ and truly are saved and do not practice homosexuality anymore. How is this possible? By being born again, when you have faith in Christs death and resurrection and truly believe, you become born again, which means you become a new person with your sinful nature (lust, greed, homosexuality, sexual immorality) behind you as long as you continue in it. My very best friend woudl be considered homosexual by the worlds standards but he can confidently say he is not anymore because he is being saved from it. It is just as I myself am being saved from sexual immorality with women, waiting til marriage or abstaining in its entirety. There are much more important things at hand then spending time doing those things. 


As far as science, what does the bible say that goes against science? Many times science in its broad sense is used in the bible, after all, God created all things and science is the explanation fo whats created. Are there thing sin science that go against the bible? Of course, but we are man and science is constantly changing, people used to think the world was flat (no where did this originate from the bible so you cant blame it on that) and not long after they realized their theory was incorrect. Can you take quantum physics and use it to show creation and explain more accurately why things are as they are? of course you can, and is this going against the bible? In no way.


With the topic of women, if you would understand the bible accurately then you would understand it is not because we are discriminating against women at all, their is equality. It is written that "there is neither male nor female, you are all one in Christ." What this means is that any believer, whether male or female is seen as the same by God and we are to view them the same, however, when it comes to matters concerning the church, there is a difference in the responsibilities and duties of women in it and of men. Just as there is a difference in how women dress and the different qualities women have compared to men, it is best suited towards them. What do I mean? Many times it is charged that women who are married should tend to their family, which is right in line with the motherly and caring aspect of women, it is well known that women are very good at mothering their children. It is the same with the church, it is designed to make best use of women by designating them to preach the gospel. It is written "Man is the glory of God and women is the glory of man." The husband is the head of the house, as Christ is the head of the church. 

For cannabis, it is a false notion that smoking any cannabis at all is sin, take alcohol for example, it is not condemned in the gospel, Jesus drank to an extent, the goal was to never get drunk. Being drunk is a sin according to the bible, as it takes away from your sobriety. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes. It is the same with weed, am I able to take a little bit of marijuana without losing my sobriety and still enjoying its effects? Certainly. Many people us it medicinally, is it to say that those people who are using it to get rid of chronic health problems to enjoy a quality of life are sinning because they used something deemed as medicine for them? absolutely not. 

At the end of the day, sin is sin and is bad, whether it be homosexuality, adultery, greed, murder etc. The truth is that through Jesus Christ we can be forgiven and changed into new people, not being fo the old sinful nature any longer. So we are not disciriminated against because of our past life. If you arent a christian then their is no judgement from us other then telling people to repent and to tell them about Jesus. God will do the judging with unbelievers.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 1 Corinthians 5


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 16, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> any discrimination is not what you would think. Is homosexuality any different of a sin in the bible then lust for another woman from a heterosexual man? Absolutely not. Jesus said "if a man looks at a woman lustfully he has already committed adultery in his heart with her." The sin of adultery is just as bad as the sin of homosexuality. both are sexual perversion and immorality. In the context of marriage, it is right for a man and a woman to marry and have sex, it is not right for homosexuals to. This was never intended in the first place, doesn't the very nature of things tell you that a man ought not to be with a man? Even the very act of it isnt right according to how things are created. The penis is meant to go into the vagina for intercourse, it is plainly seen and Jesus testifies to this as well by what has been created.



The "it's not natural argument", OK.. Except it is found throughout nature and is completely natural. Even still, disregarding that evidence, there is nothing that details why something 'unnatural' is bad and why everything 'natural' is good. I also have yet to see something as vehemently against homosexuality, because it's "unnatural" as polyester, sunglasses, or vaccines, because hey, they're equally as "unnatural". 



trueg115 said:


> Can a homosexual become a christian? Absolutely! I know many homosexuals that have become born again by the blood of Christ and truly are saved and do not practice homosexuality anymore. How is this possible? By being born again, when you have faith in Christs death and resurrection and truly believe, you become born again, which means you become a new person with your sinful nature (lust, greed, homosexuality, sexual immorality) behind you as long as you continue in it. My very best friend woudl be considered homosexual by the worlds standards but he can confidently say he is not anymore because he is being saved from it. It is just as I myself am being saved from sexual immorality with women, waiting til marriage or abstaining in its entirety. There are much more important things at hand then spending time doing those things.


I'm confused.. I believe if this is the case, your friend is simply lying to himself. (Consider the implications, it is no different than you (presumably you're straight) suppressing heterosexual urges, that which you are born with, which are completely normal and natural. 



trueg115 said:


> As far as science, what does the bible say that goes against science?


A lot. The Earth revolves around the Sun, the world is flat, men are superior to women, it's OK to keep slaves, etc.. 



trueg115 said:


> Many times science in its broad sense is used in the bible, after all, God created all things and science is the explanation fo whats created. Are there thing sin science that go against the bible? Of course, but we are man and science is constantly changing, people used to think the world was flat (no where did this originate from the bible so you cant blame it on that)


 
The Bible supports flat Earth theory



trueg115 said:


> With the topic of women, if you would understand the bible accurately then you would understand it is not because we are discriminating against women at all, their is equality. It is written that "there is neither male nor female, you are all one in Christ." What this means is that any believer, whether male or female is seen as the same by God and we are to view them the same, however, when it comes to matters concerning the church, there is a difference in the responsibilities and duties of women in it and of men. Just as there is a difference in how women dress and the different qualities women have compared to men, it is best suited towards them. What do I mean? Many times it is charged that women who are married should tend to their family, which is right in line with the motherly and caring aspect of women, it is well known that women are very good at mothering their children. It is the same with the church, it is designed to make best use of women by designating them to preach the gospel. It is written "Man is the glory of God and women is the glory of man." The husband is the head of the house, as Christ is the head of the church.


This is completely and incredibly sexist, no omnibenevolent god would create, endorse, or enforce such an idea.



trueg115 said:


> For cannabis, it is a false notion that smoking any cannabis at all is sin, take alcohol for example, it is not condemned in the gospel, Jesus drank to an extent, the goal was to never get drunk. Being drunk is a sin according to the bible, as it takes away from your sobriety. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes. It is the same with weed, am I able to take a little bit of marijuana without losing my sobriety and still enjoying its effects? Certainly. Many people us it medicinally, is it to say that those people who are using it to get rid of chronic health problems to enjoy a quality of life are sinning because they used something deemed as medicine for them? absolutely not.


This seems like cherry picking. As if you're using the Bible to justify sin because it's already a part of your lifestyle. Sober/stoned is a fine line, completely subjective, so how am I supposed to know when the line is crossed according to God? All it says is 'remain sober', that could mean never touch a mind altering substance for a complete novice or don't take 25 hits of this crazy world altering shit if you're an experienced stoner. 



trueg115 said:


> At the end of the day, sin is sin and is bad, whether it be homosexuality, adultery, greed, murder etc.


Well what about working on Sunday or shaving your beard? Those are 'sins', too, are they not? Sin is sin, no?


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## eye exaggerate (Mar 16, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> How do you reconcile the belief that the Bible and its teachings are inherently good while it simultaneously discriminates against women, homosexuals *and science*?


...some help with that thought.


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 16, 2013)

Irrelevant

I also know Christians who support the theory of evolution, it doesn't make them any more right about reality.


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## trueg115 (Mar 16, 2013)

Ill start from your last point and work my way up.
Working on sunday and shaving your beard are not sins at all. This comes from a lack of knowledge concerning the New and Old testament. Since Christ has died and set us free from the regulations of the law, we are not bound to these rules any longer, bu even back then it was not sin to shave your beard, only certain customs at times was it required to not shave your head etc. And these were only during set periods of time, such as when a man was becoming a nazarite, he would not shave his head for a set amount of days. It is a common misconception that the rules in the OT are to be abided by as Christians when Jesus has died and set us free from the law of sin and death. As for sunday, "one man regards one day as special, one man considers all days alike. let each man be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14
Jesus was sought out to be stoned by the pharisees in his day because he was working on the sabbath. Why was he doing this? because the true sabbath is following the will of the Lord. It is not just a day set once a week. It is worshiping in Spirit and truth by obeying Christ and following Him, just as he obeyed the Father and followed Him. 

So as far as sobriety goes, if to you you don't want to smoke at all, then I would not smoke around you at all. If eating meat or drinking wine causes my brother to stumble, then I would no longer do either. Nonetheless, the acts of the sinful nature are obvious. It si obvious to each individual when they are living in debauchery and drunkenness. There is a clear difference between being stoned and feeling the effects of a little cannabis, in the same way that there is a difference between a little alcohol and a lot.

As far as the sexist remarks, I am no longer going to impede on those because the case has been stated and I do not expect any unbeliever to agree with that at all. But I will state that when it is taken in the right context, there is no sexism there. 

Show me one verse that supports flat earth theory. There is not one at all. Neither is there a case that the earth revolves around the sun, I dont know where you are getting this information but it is not coming from the Holy bible. The bible does not condone slavery, btu since this world is set up by Satan and controlled by Him, Jesus knows their will be it, so slaves are to submit to their masters because it is bound to happen, it has happened before and it will happen again. It is not something that is condones in the sense of encouraging slavery. Jesus kingdom is not of this world, he is not trying to fix human society as it is, but rather the condition of man, fixing society would only provide a temporary solution, therefore he goes after the hearts of men to change the very essence of who they are to stop the corruption fully. 

What you dont understand is that we have the power of the Holy Spirit, so we are not bound to what is natural any longer. So to you, it may be fully naturally to have heterosexual desires fro women and to give into urges for them, but to us, we are born again, with teh Holy Spirit, we are not living in our natural selves any longer and you cant understand this until you have been born again. We are not from below any longer, we are from above, the new man created in the image of Christ and seeking to become like Him. That is why we are considered aliens and strangers in this world. We still have our sinful nature, but we now have the power to put to death the acts of it, which we were powerless to do before. 

When I speak of something being natural, as is the case of homosexuality, I am not speaking to if it is something in our human nature or something we are bound to do or not, as is the case my argument would be completely invalid then. Because then we would not have any homosexuals. What I mean is that the very nature of things shows that a man belongs with a women. That is where my argument stops at that. It doesn't go any further or any less. Yes, you do find homosexuality in nature, I am coming from a mindset that my fellow believers are not natural any longer, as stated earlier, we are from above and have the ability to overcome our natural state of mind and flesh, with that stated, my implications are going towards believer sin Christ. Does that make any homosexual any better off because he is not a believer? Of course not, but he is not held to the standard then of not being homosexual, do you see what I mean? There is no judgement from the church towards unbelievers asides from telling them it is sin. It stops at that, we are not to hold them to the standard of them getting out of it until they become a follower of Christ, because up until that point they are not able to, which is why you may find it hard to believe that my friend truly isn't homosexual like he was before, because according to man, it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. 

As Romans 1 States:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God&#8217;s invisible qualities&#8212;his eternal power and divine nature&#8212;have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator&#8212;who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God&#8217;s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.



As you can see, these things come from a lack of acknowledging God as God, he gives us over to them, just as easily and as much as he can take them away from us. That is the reason he died, not just for forgiveness, but for salvation from our sins so we will sin no more.


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## nameno (Mar 16, 2013)

Foe me it's all about the relationship with JESUS, I talk to him,he lives,and every word of the bible is true. Sometimes I don't understand what it means,but when I ask he tells me maybe today maybe next week but he answers. I thought he was against weed,I thought that for a long time,but he let me know it was good used correctly. He showed me how to build my faith faster by going places where like minded people are,like church.With weed the relationship grew closer it's good and growing now. I love what I learn about JESUS.Peace


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 16, 2013)

You know what i hate more than anything, as an Atheist, i have read the bible front to back multiple times... and 99% of every Christian i have ever met has never read the entire thing, or lies about reading the entire thing, which is sin in itself. 

Please, familiarize yourself with your faith if you wish to be a true follower of a certain religion. But like i said before, Christians usually take the parts out of the bible that they like, and ignore the rest, in order to justify their behavior in the eyes of the lord.

Thessalonians 5:6-8 - Being sober is the opposite of being drunk and is associated with being alert and watchful.

Peter 1:13-17 - Be sober, gird up the loins of your mind so you can avoid lusts and be obedient and holy. This requires being alert.

Peter 5:8,9 - Be sober so we can be on guard for the devil, resist him, and not be devoured by him. Realizing how dangerous Satan is, we should keep our minds clear so we can recognize his deceit and resist his temptations. 

Corinthians 9:25-27 - Bring our bodies into subjection to our minds, exercising temperance (self-control) like athletes in training, so our bodies will be properly guided by our minds.

Proverbs 4:23 - Keep your heart (mind) with all diligence because it must decide the issues of life. 

Struggling against evil is difficult and dangerous at best, even with the clearest of faculties. That is why God has forbidden intoxication. There are other ways to violate these principles, but drug abuse is surely one way. 

If you consider yourself a Christian, and you get intoxicated in any way... repent, discontinue the behavior, or you are going to hell. This is all in literal reference to what is considered one of the holiest texts in the world, the bible.






If this information at all contradicts your denomination... i would rethink you stance, and choose a different religion to fallow... if you wish to continue smoking cannabis, or consuming any substance that is mind altering, if i were you... i would choose something other than the Christian doctrine... else you will fall into the pits of hell for consumption of any substance that is intoxicating.

For God, according to the Christian doctrine, knows, sees and hears ALL. You cannot hide from the lord, even your thoughts can be seen, do not allow the temptation of intoxication of the devil infiltrate your life, for then... you will surely burn in hell.


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## bud nugbong (Mar 17, 2013)

Case closed^



nameno said:


> Foe me it's all about the relationship with JESUS, I talk to him,he lives,and every word of the bible is true. Sometimes I don't understand what it means,but when I ask he tells me maybe today maybe next week but he answers. I thought he was against weed,I thought that for a long time,but he let me know it was good used correctly. He showed me how to build my faith faster by going places where like minded people are,like church.With weed the relationship grew closer it's good and growing now. I love what I learn about JESUS.Peace



does he have an accent?


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 17, 2013)

*It's funny to me, how well Christians ignore my replies when they pierce the ring of truth, and the only thing they want to do is ignore it. *

"You know what i hate more than anything, as an Atheist, i have read the bible front to back multiple times... and 99% of every Christian i have ever met has never read the entire thing, or lies about reading the entire thing, which is sin in itself. 

Please, familiarize yourself with your faith if you wish to be a true follower of a certain religion. But like i said before, Christians usually take the parts out of the bible that they like, and ignore the rest, in order to justify their behavior in the eyes of the lord.

Thessalonians 5:6-8 - Being sober is the opposite of being drunk and is associated with being alert and watchful.

Peter 1:13-17 - Be sober, gird up the loins of your mind so you can avoid lusts and be obedient and holy. This requires being alert.

Peter 5:8,9 - Be sober so we can be on guard for the devil, resist him, and not be devoured by him. Realizing how dangerous Satan is, we should keep our minds clear so we can recognize his deceit and resist his temptations. 

Corinthians 9:25-27 - Bring our bodies into subjection to our minds, exercising temperance (self-control) like athletes in training, so our bodies will be properly guided by our minds.

Proverbs 4:23 - Keep your heart (mind) with all diligence because it must decide the issues of life. 

Struggling against evil is difficult and dangerous at best, even with the clearest of faculties. That is why God has forbidden intoxication. There are other ways to violate these principles, but drug abuse is surely one way. 

If you consider yourself a Christian, and you get intoxicated in any way... repent, discontinue the behavior, or you are going to hell. This is all in literal reference to what is considered one of the holiest texts in the world, the bible.






If this information at all contradicts your denomination... i would rethink you stance, and choose a different religion to fallow... if you wish to continue smoking cannabis, or consuming any substance that is mind altering, if i were you... i would choose something other than the Christian doctrine... else you will fall into the pits of hell for consumption of any substance that is intoxicating.

For God, according to the Christian doctrine, knows, sees and hears ALL. You cannot hide from the lord, even your thoughts can be seen, do not allow the temptation of intoxication of the devil infiltrate your life, for then... you will surely burn in hell.*:*


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## trueg115 (Mar 18, 2013)

Alright, lets start this.

First off, you have to understand what are the apostles saying and meaning when they imply being sober. Do they mean a state of mind unaltered by substances so they can be aware of the devils schemes? yes, they do. Do they mean a mind that is alert and ready to be watchful and able to pray at any given moment when trouble comes? Of course. The problem comes when one starts to tread the line being drunk and being sober. Drunk referring to both alcohol intoxication and marijuana's effects on the brain. Just like a little bit of alcohol isn't intoxicating tot he point of inebriation, marijuana in small doses is beneficial if used in moderation as well. The bible lcearly states that alcohol in moderation is fine, it is when it is used in excess and one is drunk and no longer able to think straight that they are in sin. The apostle Paul warned everyone, however, not to drink if it was going to cause a brother to stumble. For instance, if you were my brother, Zaehet, I would no longer drink around you if you believed any form of alcohol at all was a sin, just like I would no longer smoke at all around you.

Let me be clear, I am in no way condoning the use of marijuana to get stoned when it comes to Christianity. Am I here to judge people that aren't christians? Absolutely not. God will judge them, so when I say I dont condone people to get stoned, I am impying my christian brothers and sisters. The difference is that a little bit of weed is similar to a little but of alcohol. When I say little I do in fact mean a puff or two. I am not one to smoke more then that ever. Did I used to, before I got saved? Of course, but I have been born again and my goal is not to get stoned because I am VERY well aware we have a devil out to get us at any moment.

It is made clear that alcohol use is fine when used in small doses. I am sure you have heard these verses before but I will throw then out anyways to support the multiple people in teh bible who drank and why it is good to drink in small amounts.

He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate&#8212;
bringing forth food from the earth:
wine that gladdens human hearts, Psalm 104

Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Ecclesiastes 9:7

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children." (Matthew 11:18,19)

Jesus was around drinking wine with the tax collectors and sinners, and was accused of being a drunkard by the pharisees of his day, much like people of the church accusing Christians of being able to hang out with anyone that is an unbeliever for the gospels sake. Jesus was sinless, so for him to drink wine and not have sinned is another reason ti shows that wine, without excessive use which leads to drunkenness is not sin.

It is admonished for overseers and older men to not be given to much wine, in other words to practice self control. ""But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things&#8212;" Titus 2:1

In case you are part fo the people that beleive any wine spoken of in the bible is referrign to grape fruit, I would encourage you to read this verse in Numbers where it demonstartes a clear distinction between wine and grape juice. Along with the fact that it is made clear throughout the bible that wine is in fact, wine. "Numbers 6:2,3 reads, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.'"


Now, onto your side of it, Excessive alcohol use, just like excessive marijuana use is certainly wrong and condemned by the Lord. 
"Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine. Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things." Proverbs 23

Now I will tackle why medical marijuana is fine when used to treat illnesses. It was even supported and encouraged in the gospels for them to use alcohol for their frequent stomach illnesses. ""No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities." 1 Timothy 5
As you can see, the reason this was suggested was for an illness and in the same way, medical marijuana, which works very well in small doses as I myself am one that uses it to medicate, is perfectly fine.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 18, 2013)

^This is a great example of how someone can take the words of the bible, and twist them around to mean anything they want them to mean. 

Take a verse from the bible, and ask 100 Christians what it means... you will get 100 different answers.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

me? no, not yet.. well, I suppose I have over the years.. but not like studied. 

I started reading from genensis & kept lossing interest. I started with the Gospels.. read them prob 10 times over an over again. Then Acts, etc. Mostly the New Testiment. I figure that's the best place to start.


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## trueg115 (Mar 18, 2013)

Zaehet Strife said:


> ^This is a great example of how someone can take the words of the bible, and twist them around to mean anything they want them to mean.
> 
> Take a verse from the bible, and ask 100 Christians what it means... you will get 100 different answers.


There is only one truth on every subject. It is the holy Spirit that is responsible for teaching it to us and our responsibility is to listen. All of the different answers is just a lack of guidance by the Holy Spirit.
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

When the Holy Spirit is within us, and we are actively listening to Him, he will not contradict himself, once the church begins to wake up to this, you will see Christians finally coming together to agree on subjects, but until then you will see the mass confusion that is modern day Christianity. 

Now please show me how anything I said went against being sober and alert.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 18, 2013)

Peter 5:8,9 - Be sober so we can be on guard for the devil, resist him, and not be devoured by him. Realizing how dangerous Satan is, we should keep our minds clear so we can recognize his deceit and resist his temptations. 

Being high... is not being sober. lol


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## mudminer (Mar 18, 2013)

wow..... i missed a bunch!


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## silasraven (Mar 18, 2013)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Peter 5:8,9 - Be sober so we can be on guard for the devil, resist him, and not be devoured by him. Realizing how dangerous Satan is, we should keep our minds clear so we can recognize his deceit and *resist his temptations*.
> 
> Being high... is not being sober. lol


telling someone this just makes you satan tempting us to stop. go away please. ive had to continually deal with people like you. if you say your read the book front to back yet you are a non believer i will not and would not believe a word you say. i dont know any christian who has taken advice from a non believer. usually its not good when you do.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

HOly crap. This isnt my intention. I dont want to debate anything. I think the point I made in my OP was that I dont know. My eyes are being opened.

To be honest debating with you would be like me arguing with my 8 year old. He just doesnt know & the conversation is silly. I can make him look silly, but he;s 8.. its not that hard. (I am the 8 year old btw.. not you. You obviously have far more experience than I do with reading the bible.)

Same thing. I'm a new Christian.. Just started studying for myself... instead of just hearing it for the past 25 years type thing.

Come back to a this post in a year or so & we'll discuss your point of view, but for now.. just don't waste your time. I have no idea nor do I pretend to know what God says about things. That's the point. 

I just want to discuss my experience with like minded poeple. You want to debate, do it with someone else. I don't have the experience or the vocabulary at this point. 

BUt your welcome to read along with us, but as I said this isnt the place or time for debate.

Thanks

QUOTE=Padawanbater2;8823697]How do you reconcile the belief that the Bible and its teachings are inherently good while it simultaneously discriminates against women, homosexuals and science?[/QUOTE]


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

Once again, not a place for debate. I just want to talk to like minded people. I dont pretend to know everything. I have not read the bibble cover to cover etc. I don't believe that having some wine, booze or pot is a sin for me. It also says that everyone has different things ie some peoples faith didnt allow them to eat certain foods, but God says all food is good. So, if you want to eat something that offends your neighbuor dont do it. (back to that golden rule thing) But its not what goes into a man that kills him its what comes out of his mouth that kills him. 

That's how I read it.

Jesus made water into wine.. please note that the guest said you saved the best for later in the night instead of the cheaper stuff once everyones had a few. ( paraphrase  ) Better wine is stronger wine so I dont think Alcohol is the issue. Its getting drunk. There is a difference. 

That's part of why I started this. I learned for years no booze, but that's not what the bible says. Jesus never told anyone to not drink.. Not that I've found anyways.. 



Zaehet Strife said:


> You know what i hate more than anything, as an Atheist, i have read the bible front to back multiple times... and 99% of every Christian i have ever met has never read the entire thing, or lies about reading the entire thing, which is sin in itself.
> 
> Please, familiarize yourself with your faith if you wish to be a true follower of a certain religion. But like i said before, Christians usually take the parts out of the bible that they like, and ignore the rest, in order to justify their behavior in the eyes of the lord.
> 
> ...


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

Im not saying I'm right. I'm saying I dont know.

Why can't people just say I dont know? How hard is that?

I think science shows that GOd created everything.. The big bang, how the laws of thermal dymamics work, electrons & the like. I think its fantastic! 

You don't have to agree.. That's ok. I could be wrong.. But nothing I've seen so far makes me think that.

The good news is that nowhere does it say you have to believe not believe in evelution to be saved. Jesus never said that. 

I think that's sort of my point on the whole thing. Heaven has nothing to so with evelusion or creationism. Its all about Christ. The rest is irelevent. 

ie Christ never told anyone to repend & become a Jew & follow the Torma. His whole point was a freedom that the Jew's didnt have because they worshipped the law instead of the law giver. 

Legalism & all that. Jesus preached againt that. 

I am experiencing the freedom of following Christ. I used to look at it the other way. All the rules & regulation. Turns out its not about the rules, its all about the freedom to worship God through Christ on your own. All the rest is window dressing. 

QUOTE=Padawanbater2;8823959]Irrelevant

I also know Christians who support the theory of evolution, it doesn't make them any more right about reality. [/QUOTE]


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

OH.. I think it was Luke who said to take a little wine for your stomach..



Zaehet Strife said:


> *It's funny to me, how well Christians ignore my replies when they pierce the ring of truth, and the only thing they want to do is ignore it. *
> 
> "You know what i hate more than anything, as an Atheist, i have read the bible front to back multiple times... and 99% of every Christian i have ever met has never read the entire thing, or lies about reading the entire thing, which is sin in itself.
> 
> ...


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

well said. 

I think its a fair statement that ff your not being led by the Holy Spirit none of it makes sense. Christ did everything backwards by the worlds standards. The King served as well as being served. You're not to replay evil with evil. ect.
If you want to rule you have to serve.. If a man takes your coat give him your sweater too type thing.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

I think I ssee the issue here. I dont want to follow a religion. I did that for 25 years. 

I want to follow Christ. Christ didnt belong to any church. He as a Jew & he was very clear not to follow Him & follow the law.. he said you CAN'T follow the law to the letter. THat's why He came, to give us the freedom to worhip God without all the rules & regulations. [

That's what Ive discovered in the last little while. 

People worhip the book instead of what the book talk about. There's a part in the Gospels that says something like What's holy, the gold on the alter or the alter itself that makes the gold holy? Which is holy, the meat sacrificed or the alter on which it was sacrificed? Im not going to argue the bible (see previous argument) I don't know enough at this point. BUt I know I'm on the right path based on the Holy Spirit leading me. 

No one else has to agree with me or think like me or even believe me. 

THis is my own experience & I would like to discuss this with like minded people. I can't be the only one.



QUOTE=Zaehet Strife;8827686]You know what i hate more than anything, as an Atheist, i have read the bible front to back multiple times... and 99% of every Christian i have ever met has never read the entire thing, or lies about reading the entire thing, which is sin in itself. 

Please, familiarize yourself with your faith if you wish to be a true follower of a certain religion. But like i said before, Christians usually take the parts out of the bible that they like, and ignore the rest, in order to justify their behavior in the eyes of the lord.

Thessalonians 5:6-8 - Being sober is the opposite of being drunk and is associated with being alert and watchful.

Peter 1:13-17 - Be sober, gird up the loins of your mind so you can avoid lusts and be obedient and holy. This requires being alert.

Peter 5:8,9 - Be sober so we can be on guard for the devil, resist him, and not be devoured by him. Realizing how dangerous Satan is, we should keep our minds clear so we can recognize his deceit and resist his temptations. 

Corinthians 9:25-27 - Bring our bodies into subjection to our minds, exercising temperance (self-control) like athletes in training, so our bodies will be properly guided by our minds.

Proverbs 4:23 - Keep your heart (mind) with all diligence because it must decide the issues of life. 

Struggling against evil is difficult and dangerous at best, even with the clearest of faculties. That is why God has forbidden intoxication. There are other ways to violate these principles, but drug abuse is surely one way. 

If you consider yourself a Christian, and you get intoxicated in any way... repent, discontinue the behavior, or you are going to hell. This is all in literal reference to what is considered one of the holiest texts in the world, the bible.






If this information at all contradicts your denomination... i would rethink you stance, and choose a different religion to fallow... if you wish to continue smoking cannabis, or consuming any substance that is mind altering, if i were you... i would choose something other than the Christian doctrine... else you will fall into the pits of hell for consumption of any substance that is intoxicating.

For God, according to the Christian doctrine, knows, sees and hears ALL. You cannot hide from the lord, even your thoughts can be seen, do not allow the temptation of intoxication of the devil infiltrate your life, for then... you will surely burn in hell.[/QUOTE]


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## trueg115 (Mar 18, 2013)

The perfect scripture that shows what you're conveying carl is this one which Jesus said to the pharisees, which to us represents modern day church goers who are not truly following Jesus. You said they are worshipping a book. This is what Christ says concerning that.

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5

And to zaehet, I have made it very clear that I am not condoning marijuana to get stoned, there is a big difference between smoking a little bit and smoking a lot, just as there is a difference in drinking some alcohol and drinking a 6 pack of beer.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 18, 2013)

There is a difference between having a toke or 2 or a glass of wine or 2. You're still sober Zaehet. Everyone has a differnet tollerence so you can't make a judgement call here. Everyones differnent but that was taken into account by the Holy Spirit too. Christ was very clear that if it bugs yor brother don't do it! If someones offended by either drinking or having a toke or 2 then I wouldn't do either. 

Actaully, the only time I smoke weed is when I'm alone studying my bible or praying. I find it opens my mind up to the moving of the Holy Spirit.

At the same time, I have noticed once or twice I have had too much weed & my mind & words wander during my prayers. I regognize that & have backed off now since that happened.

It's all about the freedom Christ provided.. No more legalism!

Its a GREAT thing 


tHERE IS A


Zaehet Strife said:


> Peter 5:8,9 - Be sober so we can be on guard for the devil, resist him, and not be devoured by him. Realizing how dangerous Satan is, we should keep our minds clear so we can recognize his deceit and resist his temptations.
> 
> Being high... is not being sober. lol


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 18, 2013)

Justify your use of cannabis as much as you all want... in the eyes of our lord and savior, you will be judged after death. If you have read the bible, then you understand no sin goes unnoticed, no matter how petty you make them out to be. 

It is your decision whether or not you live in sin, or without. 

God has given you the freedom to decide if you are going to go to hell, or go to heaven. If you want to take a chance on your own personal interpretations of the bible, you go on ahead and do that. 

But when you die and you are at the gates, don't say God didn't try to warn you.


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## trueg115 (Mar 18, 2013)

I respect your desire to make sure Christians accurately interpret the bible, especilly with your lack of belief in Jesus. We need more Christians to follow that example. Your view, however, represents the modern Pharisee view currently, however, and it is interesting to note how yesterday I was talking to a friend about how modern day Pharisees are like unbelievers on the inside and Christians on the outside (if that were possible) and I stated that the reason they are just like unbelievers is they don't truly believe in God, yet teach as they do and hold others to standards they don't hold themselves to. Then you come along, one of the first unbelievers that seems to do this to people. 
Jesus said to watch out for wolves that come in the form of sheep outwardly, these are Pharisees and false prophets.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 18, 2013)

It's your life, it's your death, and more importantly... your risk. /shrug

You make the choice, but like i said before, when you get there... don't say God didn't warn you, because he did.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 19, 2013)

Hey! Once you start looking at things through the guidence of the Holy Spirit you start seeing God everywhere. 

Driving to work today on the highway doing 80kph on slush because we just got a dump of the white stuff (all you coke heads settle down.. Im talking about snow!) Being passed by transports constantly & you know, I didnt have to put my wippers on once. I wish I had taken pictures somehow.. You ever drive on the highway in the snow with slush & crap so bad that you can't drive the speed limit & not use your wippers?? I drive a company vehicle & it is TERRIBLE in the snow (Small 2 wheel drive pick up truck, no weight, no power, but man is it cheap for me to run ) & I hate driving it in the snow or freezing rain (both of which are happening right now here) After I prayed about my fears I felt reassurance. I felt that God woudnt be working in my life only to see me squished on the highway early into the program..

Now I could be nuts & that's ok.. isnt it better to give credit to God for something rather than fluff it off as nothing? I suppose it could be that it was so windy that the spray was being blown away from the other vehicles instead of hitting my windshield.. Its possible.. but I now get to spend the entire day thinking God's looking out for me, which goes along with what I read in the bible this morning & you know, its a good place to be 

Lol.. I love it. I really do.


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## trueg115 (Mar 19, 2013)

Your only starting tot see how sovereign he is and how much he truly is with his anointed ones. These tiny signs are only the very, very beginning of whats coming for you. 

He who is faithful with little will be faithful with much. Luke

When you acknosledge and trust it is God in control fo those moments, then he looks down and sees you are ready for more because you dont throw it off as just mere coincidence.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 19, 2013)

I'm sorry Zaehet. I just don't know enough to comment properly. I don't see it the way you do. 

Although it must be said that you are not a Christian (your words.. I have no idea what you believe) so I don't see how you could see it from my point of view. You are making your judgements from the sidelines. Come join in the game baby!  

What I do know is that the bible says that we are a pecular people & once saved by faith in Christ you see things differently than the unsaved. 

I say saved & unsaved not go to church or NOT go to church. I think saved is what Christ said it was. Basically believe in Christ & what his death ment. We all fall short of the glory of God. To follow Christ is to follow his teachings. He said Love God more than anything else & love your neighbour as yourself. & the more I read & study the more understanding I get. 

Its like the thief on the cross.. he got saved but that was it. He never learned a THING in the bible, no rules or regulations, no following of traditions or worshipping on a certain day. 

So far as I can tell, those things are good & Godly, but have nothing to do with salvation other than if Christ moves you to do something & you don't, you may loose the joy of your salvation, but your still in the club. THis is what I have felt for the past 25 years going to church (dad's a pastor but not till later on in life). The rules & regs are what the pharassees followed & that's what Christ came to stop us from doing & give us the actaul freedom of the Gospel!

Anyways, Im gonna dig a hole for myself here so I'll stop here. All I know is that there is definetly a moving in my life by the Holy Spirit & I'm excited to see where it goes!

And you are correct. We all have been told & we will all have to answer for it. Including you.. (your words..) 





Zaehet Strife said:


> It's your life, it's your death, and more importantly... your risk. /shrug
> 
> You make the choice, but like i said before, when you get there... don't say God didn't warn you, because he did.


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## sunni (Mar 19, 2013)

interesting read my friends,


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 19, 2013)

carl.burnette said:


> I'm sorry Zaehet. I just don't know enough to comment properly. I don't see it the way you do.


You see, the thing is that it doesn't matter how you or anyone else sees it... what matters is how God sees it. Deep down you know this, everyone does... but most people choose to ignore it and decide that it is their own interpretation that seems fit to guide their lives. 

We all have been given a choice, to live in sin or to live without. It doesn't matter what you subjectively interpret as a sin... if God sees it as a sin then it is one regardless of what you think. 

When you and i are at the gates and we are being judged, none of us will be excused for our behavior in the eyes of the Lord, no matter how differently you think.

There are many who call themselves Christian, but basically serve their own desires. God will not be deceived by those who play the Christianity game.


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## trueg115 (Mar 19, 2013)

I agree wholeheartedly with you Zaehet, I have a question for you, why do you not believe in God?

And also, when our views line up with God's views per the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Spirit, as they cannot contradict each other, then we too can say it does matter how we think. The Apostle paul was able to make judgements about things, as was Jesus, why? because they fully submitted to the Holy Spirits Judgements. Jesus said I judge only what I hear. In other words, he spoke and judged only what the Holy Spirit judged for him to say. That is how Christaisn filled with the Spirit are to judge, not based upon what they see with their eyes or hear with their ears.

God will not be deceived by pharisees (playing the Christianity game) as he sees every motive and our hearts are laid out before him to whom we must give account.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 19, 2013)

I do not believe in God because i have never seen or heard it. I've searched my dreams for it countless times when i have been lucid. I've searched many, many different religions with no sign what so ever. I have searched within myself but to no avail. 

But just because i don't believe, doesn't mean that a god or gods do not exist... because they very well may exist. 

I was born and raised Christian, which is why i know so much about Christianity and the many bibles it has produced. You think i would avert my faith without countless hours, days and years of rigorous study? 

I've come to the truth within myself, and the truth is that i don't know the truth. That is one of the hardest things i have ever done, to be honest with myself and to admit to myself that i don't know if there is or isn't a god. It's scary to live without faith, but even more scary to live in "sin".

If i had to guess, that if this existence has anything to do with some deity, i would say that we are all already experiencing different levels of purgatory in this existence. And until we can figure out how to get to "heaven" we will stay here in different states of purgatory for all eternity, over and over again. That no religion can pave your path, you must create your own. That in order to attain "heaven", you must live without "sin" regardless of any denomination. 

But like i said before, if you believe the Christian doctrine is true... and you do smoke cannabis. Be prepared to be judged for it the day of your death.


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## trueg115 (Mar 19, 2013)

I know I won't be because he who sent me is true and what I hear from him is exactly what I tell the world, just as Jesus said. Yes, I hear the Holy Spirit, as any believer has access to through faith and this is why I am able to be confident on the truth and not walk by blind faith, but by true faith which has evidence, after all Hebrews says faith is the evidence of things not yet seen. There is still evidence. My evidence comes from within, with my body being a temple and the Holy Spirit residing in it. This is why I have no fear of your condemnation aBout cannabis because Jesus has already told me a little is perfectly fine when used in the right context, just like alcohol. It is a sin to be drunk or living in debauchery, it is entirely possible to be sober while smoking a little aNd to be sober while drinking a little. These are not what matters, what matters is faith expressing itself through love by accomplishing the will of the Father in heaven. I pray to God your eyes will be opened, I am here as a witness to you that Jesus is the Christ, and the bible backs me up. As I have said earlier, I had no knowledge of Christ up to my experience and then one night was told about Jesus through the Holy Spirit, just as the scriptures say will happen. That is a sign to you of the one true God working.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 19, 2013)

Then it is a risk you rightfully choose to take... so when you are at the gates, you do not have the privilege of using the excuse that God did not warn you. For he is doing so right now.


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## cannabiscultivation (Mar 19, 2013)

all seed bearing plants are for meat. genesis first page.
change any word or meaning and you and all yours are damned. revelations..Last page.

new wine of canna.

King David danced in the streets singing and playing guitar (in a loin cloth...the women were impressed)...the most favorite of all Gods children. King Solomons Father (correction). The first temple to God was full of incense and various smoking resins. with the doors closed.

Juss sayin.....Party on.


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## dashcues (Mar 19, 2013)

cannabiscultivation said:


> all seed bearing plants are for meat. genesis first page.
> change any word or meaning and you and all yours are damned. revelations..Last page.
> 
> new wine of canna.
> ...


^^Think you mean...Solomon was David's son.(Maybe I read you wrong?I'm kinda  right now)


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## cannabiscultivation (Mar 19, 2013)

dashcues said:


> ^^Think you mean...Solomon was David's son.(Maybe I read you wrong?I'm kinda  right now)


Right...I medicate as well...LOL!


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## tyler.durden (Mar 20, 2013)

carl.burnette said:


> Hey! Once you start looking at things through the guidence of the Holy Spirit you start seeing God everywhere.
> 
> Driving to work today on the highway doing 80kph on slush because we just got a dump of the white stuff (all you coke heads settle down.. Im talking about snow!) Being passed by transports constantly & you know, I didnt have to put my wippers on once. I wish I had taken pictures somehow.. You ever drive on the highway in the snow with slush & crap so bad that you can't drive the speed limit & not use your wippers?? I drive a company vehicle & it is TERRIBLE in the snow (Small 2 wheel drive pick up truck, no weight, no power, but man is it cheap for me to run ) & I hate driving it in the snow or freezing rain (both of which are happening right now here) After I prayed about my fears I felt reassurance. I felt that God woudnt be working in my life only to see me squished on the highway early into the program..
> 
> ...


It's easy to see through this filter if one is not taking in the big picture. I hear this from the faithful often, that something great and against the odds happened to them and they credit god. My mom expresses this often, 'isn't god great? Praise god!' What these people seem to mean is god is good _to me_. We were incredibly fortunate to be born in the 20th century Western World; life is incredibly easy for us. Most of humanity lives in harsh conditions and experience actual problems daily such as finding clean drinking water, where their next meal is coming from, which gov't will be in power next week and will they live through the transition, etc.. God doesn't seem to be doing much good on the majority of the planet. Remember, when you are lucky and beating the odds, there are many more who are not and are experiencing misfortune. When you thank god for your good fortune, maybe also say a prayer for those he is punishing...


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 20, 2013)

It's funny, Christians come here to seek refuge and affirmation to justify their cannabis use. When an informed ex-Christian explains to them why the word of God defines intoxication of any kind a sin... they ignore it and continue to justify it by giving passages in the bible different subjective meanings.

That's like going to a different church because yours doesn't give away free hot cocoa and snacks at the end of the sermon.


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## trueg115 (Mar 20, 2013)

No one can truly understand the kingdom of God unless he is born again. What does righteousness have in common with unrighteousness? In other words, a former or non christian cannot give true advice about he bible because they cannot understand it without the Holy Spirit. The wisdom of this world is coming to nothing, we have supplied true doctrines and scriptures to show it is okay when used in the right context. We are not twisting it.


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 21, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> No one can truly understand the kingdom of God unless he is born again. What does righteousness have in common with unrighteousness? In other words, a former or non christian cannot give true advice about he bible because they cannot understand it without the Holy Spirit. The wisdom of this world is coming to nothing, we have supplied true doctrines and scriptures to show it is okay when used in the right context. We are not twisting it.


How do you expect someone to be born again _first _before they can understand God? 

Wouldn't I need to understand God in order to truly be born again? If not, what is stopping me from going to church this Sunday and telling the pastor I'd like to be born again and become a Christian?


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## kpmarine (Mar 21, 2013)

cannabiscultivation said:


> change any word or meaning and you and all yours are damned. revelations..Last page.


 I have to say, this is the most abused verse in the Bible. It does not bar change to the bible; merely change to the prophecies found in the book of revelations. The bible, as we know it, was assembled well after that passage was written, and references itself specifically. It does not forbid changes to the rest. Not saying the bible doesn't have some passages that support enjoying your life; that verse being misused has just been a pet-peeve of mine since I was a kid. 

A thought just occurred to me while writing this response. Seeing as idioms are essentially untranslatable, and the subtleties of long-dead languages are constantly a subject of debate; wouldn't the mere act of translating revelations into English be changing the word or meaning?


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## trueg115 (Mar 21, 2013)

The book spoken of in revelation is the bible and not merely just revelation. The scriptures are complete and proverbs says if anyone adds to my word I will rebuke him to his face and prove him to be a liar. 

All scripture is God breathed and the Holy Spirit confirms that it is completed. And as far as translating,. Jesu sis alive, an all prophecy is from God and prophecy does not have the origin within the will of man according to scripture, so therefor because scripture is God breathed, he is able to translate it because it is not the exact word but the meaning of the words that matters, just like how I can translate a book perfectly fine to another language for my reader to understand and get the same message across using different words, still the same message, meaning the same thing.

As far as understanding God before you get saved and become born again, you can understand to a degree, but then once you realize who Jesus is it is only by faith in His cross that you can understand anything past the gospel. It is the gospel of Christ, the cross and his death and resurrection because of it and your forgiveness of sins now, that saves you and that is what leads you to being able to understadn the rest. Can anyone be saved without the knowledge of the cross of Christ? No, and is salvation apart from this knowledge? No, we are saved because of our faith once we receive this knowledge.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: &#8220;How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!&#8221; Romans 10

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 21, 2013)

You can justify anything, any way you want. But when you face God at the gates, he is going to ask you why you didn't listen to your heart and to his messages about intoxication of any sort, and you will be judged for your sins against him.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 21, 2013)

That's where the faith comes in. He says knock & the door will be opened. You start the process, but He finishes the work He started in you. The first step is recognizeing that there is a God.. YOu start there & move on through faith then you study because you want to know more or grow closer to God. 

That's how you become born again without knowing jack. I assume that's the way it happened to everyone. Even the apostles. They got called & dropped everything to follwo Christ. They didnt ask shite first. They just obeyed. 

That's how I see it anyways. 





Padawanbater2 said:


> How do you expect someone to be born again _first _before they can understand God?
> 
> Wouldn't I need to understand God in order to truly be born again? If not, what is stopping me from going to church this Sunday and telling the pastor I'd like to be born again and become a Christian?


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## carl.burnette (Mar 21, 2013)

Im sorry I dont know where it is, but Im sure someone on here does.. but there is another book in the bible that has a similar line about adding or taking away. Damn it I wish I knew this stuff off by heart as some others do.

I think the phasasies of the day put the words in the bible & in many cased the bible it self ABOVE what/who it teaches about. It's a guide book line to start your journey & the Holy Spirit is the guide. 

Hope that comes across right.. 



kpmarine said:


> I have to say, this is the most abused verse in the Bible. It does not bar change to the bible; merely change to the prophecies found in the book of revelations. The bible, as we know it, was assembled well after that passage was written, and references itself specifically. It does not forbid changes to the rest. Not saying the bible doesn't have some passages that support enjoying your life; that verse being misused has just been a pet-peeve of mine since I was a kid.
> 
> A thought just occurred to me while writing this response. Seeing as idioms are essentially untranslatable, and the subtleties of long-dead languages are constantly a subject of debate; wouldn't the mere act of translating revelations into English be changing the word or meaning?


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## cannabiscultivation (Mar 21, 2013)

The church's had all the power and wanted control of the trade routes.
I'll not go into what was being traded. So selective persecution by way of written word is not a new concept.
The King James version is not even close to the correct translations.
A word here or there.
WILL ROB YOU OF YOUR CHANCE TO EXPERIENCE SALVATION TO IT"S FULLEST DEGREE.


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## trueg115 (Mar 21, 2013)

Every tanslation out there, when compared to each other mean the exact same thing (I am talking about the ones that include all 66 books, no more or less) You can compare them and see it to be true. Thankfully our salvation is not found in the actual words of the bbile but in the living Christ. If we don't have the holy Spirit guide us to understand the bible then we cant understand it without his help. We do not have salvation from the bible but the bible is to lead us to salvation which is in the risen Christ. he is alive, the book testifies to Him to lead us to Him.


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## cannabiscultivation (Mar 21, 2013)

For your own piece of mind I encourage you to ponder this no longer.

Some people think herb is the blood and body of Christ.

See I told you not to think about it.


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## trueg115 (Mar 21, 2013)

And scripture shows otherwise.


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## mindphuk (Mar 21, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> No one can truly understand the kingdom of God unless he is born again. What does righteousness have in common with unrighteousness? In other words, a former or non christian cannot give true advice about he bible because they cannot understand it without the Holy Spirit. The wisdom of this world is coming to nothing, we have supplied true doctrines and scriptures to show it is okay when used in the right context. We are not twisting it.


Special pleading ftl!

A xtian cannot understand the bible without a working knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. 


You guys should really figure out your message and stick with it instead of changing it based on the circumstance. On one hand we keep being told the bible simple, it should be self-evident to anyone, is made by god to be accessible to everyone, which undoubtedly should include those that haven't been imbued with the holy spirit. Now you tell us that former xtians or non-xtians cannot possibly understand. Well Jews don't think you xtians understand their bible, which your bible relies heavily upon. Jesus certainly had just cause to accuse the pharisees of being way to strict with the law to the point making the intent lost in the minutiae. However, claiming that Jesus, still an observant Jew, meant to do away with the law altogether is misunderstanding his message and going to the opposite extreme. You're worse than the pharisees, cherry picking what you want and discarding everything else. The same code that xtians use to denounce gays is the same one prohibiting the eating of shellfish or wearing clothing of mixed fabrics.


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## mindphuk (Mar 21, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> I am talking about the ones that include all 66 books, no more or less


Right because the orthodoxy says so...
The books chosen by committee, not by any standard that can be considered divine.


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## Sativasfied (Mar 22, 2013)

carl.burnette said:


> Good job, fabulous wife & kids. Hell I even got a Jeep  but I feel God has something for me.


Slice of reality right there

If you think it's wrong to get totally stoned just the same way you think it's wrong to get totally wasted drunk, you need to start getting totally high. Yes there is a difference, and if getting totally high is still wrong to you, you haven't been high enough yet, keep toking and experiment with strains, and when it becomes totally right let us all know. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

Can a hermie plant be born again and not want to fuck itself?

[h=1][/h]


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## trueg115 (Mar 22, 2013)

mindphuk said:


> Special pleading ftl!
> 
> A xtian cannot understand the bible without a working knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
> 
> ...


This si where you have assumed wrongly though, you assumed that Christ came to destroy the law. Rather He came to fulfill it. We do not abolish the law, rather we uphold the law.

&#8220;Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5

In other words, in Christ we are above the law and keep the law because we keep love. Love does not go against the law. And the shellfish etc argument is null and void because that is apart of the law that Christ has fulfilled, it was not about what went into the mouth, but what came out of the heart. You do not understand what Jesus was meaning in the Old Testament regarding the eating of certain fish and the discarding of others so please read up before you make accusations of the sort. It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but rather what comes out of his mouth. That comes out of the heart. When we were bound to the old testament and its rules and regulations, which we are not any longer because they have been fulfilled in Christ, the shellfish rule was there to show it was unclean for a man to eat because the Lord established it as unclean, just as today, it is unclean for a man to lust after a woman, or for a man to eat a food he believes to be unclean. The rule for sexual immorality is not and has never been under the same "code" as shellfish. Homosexuality is part of something that has not changed, and this is from the bible, whereas the rules and regulations concerning food has been taken away for something greater. The law has been magnified, not minimized. So whereas before it was food going into a mouth, now it is words coming out. Before it was sexual immorality, now it is thought of that girl or guy. Before it was a man and a man having sex, now it is a man even thinking about a man lustfully. 

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31

Do not get me wrong either, I am not contradicting myself when i say we uphold the law, and we have fulfilled the law. What I mean is that in Christ, when we remain in Him, we do not go against the law but keep what matters, such as the above mentioned parts, etc I do not lust after a woman when I remain in Christ compared to having sex with one, I do not lust after a man compared to having sex with one, I do not eat a food I would believe to be unclean compared to eating shellfish, I do not speak evil words compared to putting something into my body that is bad.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 22, 2013)

I have to say I think God has the power to protect his word. I like how you worded it. Rob you of your chance to experience salvation to it's fullest degree. I love that & fully agree. You can be saved but you don't get the JOY of your salvation unless your following the will of God. ie I still love my kids & they can live in my house regardless, but boy it there more joy when they follow the will of dad compared to not  



cannabiscultivation said:


> The church's had all the power and wanted control of the trade routes.
> I'll not go into what was being traded. So selective persecution by way of written word is not a new concept.
> The King James version is not even close to the correct translations.
> A word here or there.
> WILL ROB YOU OF YOUR CHANCE TO EXPERIENCE SALVATION TO IT"S FULLEST DEGREE.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 22, 2013)

There is a difference between stoned & high. I agree. But I still believe that there is a point at which you surpass what I believe is an acceptable level & when I go over it during my bible study or prayer time I know it. 
THis is for me though. I believe that through the freedom we recieve once we accept Christ that you work your own details out as to your walk. NOt what goes in that kills a man, what comes out type thing. 


Sativasfied said:


> Slice of reality right there
> 
> If you think it's wrong to get totally stoned just the same way you think it's wrong to get totally wasted drunk, you need to start getting totally high. Yes there is a difference, and if getting totally high is still wrong to you, you haven't been high enough yet, keep toking and experiment with strains, and when it becomes totally right let us all know. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
> 
> Can a hermie plant be born again and not want to fuck itself?


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## cannabiscultivation (Mar 22, 2013)

Much like....everything....excess is not preferred for healthy living.

Excess....including prayer...?


Just askin....


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## trueg115 (Mar 22, 2013)

mindphuk said:


> Special pleading ftl!
> 
> A xtian cannot understand the bible without a working knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
> 
> ...


Whoever has claimed anyone can understand the bible has clearly not read the bible in its entirety.

"He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." Matthew 13 11

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person&#8217;s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2


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## trueg115 (Mar 22, 2013)

cannabiscultivation said:


> Much like....everything....excess is not preferred for healthy living.
> 
> Excess....including prayer...?
> 
> ...


Yes, excess including prayer, it is a false notion that following Christ is all about prayer. Whats important is doing what is right. For instance, what is more important, praying for someone or going to them to help them? Surely prayer is good, but what good is it without the action to help them with what you have prayed for?

The same goes with prayer and listening to God, what is more important to talk to God or to listen? 

Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong. Do not be quick with your mouth,

do not be hasty in your heart
to utter anything before God.
God is in heaven
and you are on earth,
so let your words be few.

A dream comes when there are many cares,

and many words mark the speech of a fool. Ecclesiastes 5

It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes. Ecclesiastes 7 18


Proverbs 25 16 If you find honey, eat just enough-- too much of it, and you will vomit.

As you can see, too much of a good thing is not always good. Moderation is key.


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## cannabiscultivation (Mar 22, 2013)

*Moderation is key


yes.
*


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## mindphuk (Mar 22, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> This si where you have assumed wrongly though, you assumed that Christ came to destroy the law. Rather He came to fulfill it. We do not abolish the law, rather we uphold the law.
> ----CLIP-----


Sounds like justification to me. The same law that Jesus fulfilled, which you claim you no longer have to follow includes man lying with another man. All of the xtian homophobes use these passages to justify their persecution but ignore everything before and after. 

Jesus did not say he fulfilled the law and you are free to ignore the Mosaic law. He said he came to fulfill, but that won't be done until EVERYTHING is accomplished, according to your own quote. 
Reading the quote in context, Jesus is contrasting what he sees as the law and how the pharisees have distorted it with innumerable rules and regulations that go beyond that actual law itself. 
You cannot change eternal, perfect laws. 
_Psa 19:7
__The* law of the LORD is perfect*, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
_
_Psa 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) *endureth for ever
*_
How can you separate the laws against shellfish, mixed fibers, tattoos, touching or eating swine, etc. with the laws against man lying with a man? They are all part of the Leviticus code. This is the definition of cherry picking.


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## trueg115 (Mar 22, 2013)

1 Corinthians chapter 5 makes it clear that sexual immorality is unacceptable. Galatians 5:19 provides a clear list of sins and immoralities which lead to damnation. Homosexuality being one of them, however, Jesus and the apostles deemed all foods clean, both the apostle Paul in his letters along with Jesus stating that it is not what goes into a mans mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of the heart, that is what defiles a person. 

The law of the Lord is not the law written in the Old testament as to what you know. The law is the lord now written on our heart. Does this go against the Old testament? No, the old testament leads us to Christ. Whereas before it was about keeping the commands in the written code, the written code has been abolished. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" You see, it was contrary to us because it brought death. The whole point of the law was to show us what sin is. 
What law was blotted out? The Mosaic law. The ultimate sacrifice of the Savior on the cross abrogated the old Mosaic laws, the symbolic of the coming Savior ceremonial sacrifices and ordinances, that did not include God's eternal Law, the Ten Commandments, which existed long before the "laws of Moses" were given at Sinai, and will always remain in effect for, and be joyfully and willingly obeyed by, the truly righteous. It is by faith we are saved, however, and since faith without works is dead, the truly righteous, by this faith will uphold this law, which does in fact condemn homosexuality and all forms of idolatry. 
"therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a sabbath day. these are a shadow of the things to come; the reality, however is found in Christ. " Colossians 2:16-17

The mosaic law was all a shadow of what is to come. For example, whereas before they were to clothe themselves in certain material, now we are clothed in Christ with the armor of God. Everything has the greater aspect to it because it is found in Christ. Before it was tattoo markings and piercing, now it is the markings on our heart, such as pagan worship or Baal worship in our heart and bowing down to idols. You name it and ill show you what is the greater aspect and why the outward part is not for us any longer.  

The law has been glorified and magnified. It is not through the law that we are saved. The law is powerless to save. Why? We are each born with a sin nature and in our sinful nature no one can please God. No one can keep all the commands required and therefore that is why Christ had to die for us. The one controlled by the Spirit, seeks life. But the one who is controlled by the sinful mind is death and cannot please God. We each break the laws and desire to break the laws without being born again. It is through our sinful nature we are at enmity towards God. Through Christ we have reconciliation because He died the death we couldn't. Now we have forgiveness through his blood. If the law could save, it would have and Christ would no longer have been needed, but as it is the law brings death but the Spirit brings life. 

We are born again through faith in Jesus Christ and we can now repent of our sins and see the kingdom of God, we who were blind and dead in our sins can now see the risen Savior and enter into His kingdom by faith, as we await the day of His coming. He has offered a way of forgiveness and Peace with God. By this faith we now keep the law by upholding it, but whoever is in Christ is above the law, because there is no law to those who are in faith. Does that mean it is done away with and we don't support it? By no means, what I am saying is we do not go against the law of the lord because it is all summed up in a single command and whoever is keeping the law of the Lord will love his neighbor as himself and love Jesus with all his heart, mind, soul and strength. 

We all need to be born again because we cant keep outward commands without he Spirit, it is only by changing the heart that we can be saved and actually clean ourselves, which in return cleanses our outward actions. Before it was about outward cleanliness, now it is about inward cleanliness, which is reflected outwardly. See how it is greater?


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## GOD HERE (Mar 22, 2013)

I LOL'd at this status.


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## mindphuk (Mar 23, 2013)

Cherry picking AND disregarding Jesus' actual words while glomming onto the preacher Paul's explanation rather than your Messiah's. Paul's words are not the words of God, are they?

As for your 'written in the heart." Perhaps you need to look at this passage from another viewpoint: Unless we have read the "Old Testament" how can we automatically KNOW what Torah says? Yes, we have "the law"/Torah written on our hearts - but this does not mean we have an automatic knowledge of it just because we are "saved". It means we now have the *desire for Torah!* The heart is the "seat of desire". Why? Because it is the battleground over which God and Satan fight continually. Allegiance comes from the heart; as do concepts such as honor, loyalty, and commitment. The heart sets apart greatness from merely "good". Without the heart no endeavor reflects the fact that we are created in the image of God. If you think you can "blot out" eternal, perfect laws, it seems that you accept the 'interpretation' that you see fit in order to make it easier on yourself. That's not what Jesus preached. 

As for your twisting of the meaning of whether you can eat shellfish or other treife. When read in context, the answer is "No". Kosher Law always was, and still is, God's Law. God never said pork, shellfish, etc. were food! People called it food in rebellion against God. The passages in question in the "New Testament" deal with animals God gave us to eat and whether they are ceremonially clean and can be eaten at that time. Even in Peter's vision (Acts 11), Peter would never have eaten the kosher animals that had been in contact with treife animals. The vision was to show that the kosher animals were no longer considered unclean because they were among the treife. This was illustrating that the Gentiles were now to be accepted! The rest of the passage in Acts 11 shows that this is the correct interpretation and what the vision was all about.


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## trueg115 (Mar 23, 2013)

Please show me where I disregarded Jesus words. And of course Pauls words were the words of God as well! How little do you know about the New testament if you think otherwise! 

"We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet&#8217;s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy

You continue to twist my words and claim I am the one twisting the bible. I never said I never read or desired the Old testament. I have read it cover to cover, I would never go off just a whim of thinking I know it in my heart, it is the Holy Spirit that has taken off the veil of the Old testament in my heart. Without Christ, the veil is still there and you cannot understand it.
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 2 Corinthians 3 14
 I pity you. you are still stuck under the Old testament laws thinking salvation is found in them. Please turn to Christ and Come to the cross where true salvation awaits. There is freedom! There is forgiveness once and for all. Christ has died for your sins, you no longer have to be bound by all of these laws which you cannot even fulfill in the first place. And Jesus did declare ALL foods clean once and for all many times.

What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them." Matthew 15 11

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer" 1 Timothy 4

As you can see ALL food is clean and consecrated by the word of God and prayer. You are trying to deceive the people into the law like all of the enemies of Christ that He came against and the enemies of the apostles. With just one read through the New testament it is clear it is the law that does not save and it is the law that has been abolished (mosaic law) and by abolished I mean for us to practice it any longer. There is a greater covenant and the new one is here to stay while the former is passing away. 

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." Hebrews 8 13

The only use for the law for us now is to point us to Christ to show us the way to salvation. It is to point out our sins. 

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: &#8220;Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.&#8221;Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because &#8220;the righteous will live by faith.&#8221;[SUP]f[/SUP] The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, &#8220;The person who does these things will live by them.&#8221; Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: &#8220;Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.&#8221;He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3

Read carefully that scripture, these are the words of God, just as Jesus words for the Lord spoke from the Father just as the apostle Paul spoke from the Lord. 

Going back, Pauls words never went against the Messiahs words at all. Show me where you think they did and I will prove you a liar. 

"Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." Proverbs 30 60


And the lie comes from the fact that we can be merely good on our own works. There is nothing we can do to inheir tsalvation or goodness on our own. I iwll leave you with this.

&#8220;There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
&#8220;Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.&#8221;
&#8220;The poison of vipers is on their lips.&#8221;
&#8220;Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.&#8221;
&#8220;Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.&#8221;
&#8220;There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God&#8217;s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 

Your misconception is that you think the Old covenant is perfect. There is error in this, the reason why Jesus came was because it was not perfect and in need of change. It could not save anyone at all. It was temporary sacrifice which was needed year after year and provided no true forgiveness of sins because if so, it would have only been needed one and for all. 

"For if there has been nothing wrong with the first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "the time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This si the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declare the Lord. I will put my laws in their heart and write then on their hearts. I will be their God and the will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'know the Lord' because they will all know me from the least to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Hebrews 8

By calling this covenant "new", he has made the frist one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. hebrews 8 13


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 23, 2013)

@ Trueg, any way you can chop your posts down to just the relevant information? Maybe 2 or 3 paragraphs? I think other people would like to reply but with a post that size, it would take a lot of time to reply to everything

Thanks


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## mindphuk (Mar 23, 2013)

mindphuk said:


> _Psa 19:7
> __*The law of the LORD is perfect*, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
> _
> _Psa 119:160
> ...





trueg115 said:


> Your misconception is that you think the Old covenant is perfect. There is error in this, the reason why Jesus came was because it was not perfect and in need of change.


You are the one with the misconception. Show me where Jesus said The Torah must change because it was imperfect. 
*"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

*There is no wiggle room here for assuming, in any way, that the Law was not to be in full effect.

You may be able to eat whatever food you want but the point is that you seem to ignore is that there are some things that God said is not food. We are not talking about being ritually clean. Jesus may have declared all foods to be clean, i.e. but that doesn't mean that you can eat things that the Lord has said is not food. 


I neither need nor want your pity. If you want to have a discussion, keep your personal comments to yourself.


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## GOD HERE (Mar 23, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Please show me where I disregarded Jesus words. And of course Pauls words were the words of God as well! How little do you know about the New testament if you think otherwise!
> 
> "We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1
> 
> ...


Good god you people live off the deep end.


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## cannabiscultivation (Mar 24, 2013)

Balance.
A bigger word then it first appears.


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## JayDiggz (Mar 24, 2013)

Interesting debate. Ok, so the bible is a holy text, right? Written how long ago? Yes, it's "the Word according to the Holy Spirit" but that word had to pass through man's interpretations to be written down on paper, right? So here we are, how many hundreds of years later following the same text. There's great things to be had from the bible and I love the idea of using marijuana to expand a persons mind on those things (going to be delving into that one soon) but it's obvious that old school viewpoints are littered all over the bible (it may sound like a sexist text but given the time it was written i'd say they were giving women a pretty big break). You just gotta be able to pick through what the important stuff is.

My opinion; don't take things so literal, we come up with stories to understand the world around us.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 24, 2013)

JayDiggz said:


> My opinion; don't take things so literal, we come up with stories to understand the world around us.


I agree 100%. But if you want to label yourself as a Christian, and you don't fallow it's teachings, you aren't a true Christian, you are a wannabee.

A half Christian if you will.


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## kpmarine (Mar 25, 2013)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I agree 100%. But if you want to label yourself as a Christian, and you don't fallow it's teachings, you aren't a true Christian, you are a wannabee.
> 
> A half Christian if you will.


The more I've thought about Christianity, the more I think there are two ways to apply it; the literal, and the allegorical. When you read the bible, and keep in mind the bias of various generations; you get a book that celebrates a person who lives a good life and gives a damn about his fellow man. If you read it as literal; that's when it gets ugly. I think that's an issue that we who aren't Christians have encouraged; The belief that if you don't fully buy into the bible; you are somehow less of a Christian. 

I'm not saying I haven't done the same, but maybe we need to adapt to discouraging the bad in a religion, and encouraging the good in it; rather than just discouraging all parts of it. There's nothing wrong with any religion. When you start infringing one a disbeliever's life though; it becomes a dogma, and not a faith.


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## kpmarine (Mar 25, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> I know I won't be because he who sent me is true and what I hear from him is exactly what I tell the world, just as Jesus said. Yes, I hear the Holy Spirit, as any believer has access to through faith and this is why I am able to be confident on the truth and not walk by blind faith, but by true faith which has evidence, after all Hebrews says faith is the evidence of things not yet seen. There is still evidence. My evidence comes from within, with my body being a temple and the Holy Spirit residing in it. This is why I have no fear of your condemnation aBout cannabis because Jesus has already told me a little is perfectly fine when used in the right context, just like alcohol. It is a sin to be drunk or living in debauchery, it is entirely possible to be sober while smoking a little aNd to be sober while drinking a little. These are not what matters, what matters is faith expressing itself through love by accomplishing the will of the Father in heaven. I pray to God your eyes will be opened, I am here as a witness to you that Jesus is the Christ, and the bible backs me up. As I have said earlier, I had no knowledge of Christ up to my experience and then one night was told about Jesus through the Holy Spirit, just as the scriptures say will happen. That is a sign to you of the one true God working.


This, to me, is the most compelling argument as to why religion is not universal. Any truly loving God is not going to judge his creation. We are a group of finite beings in the presence of an infinite being; there is no way we could come close to reasoning on the same level as God. However, I feel that an infinite being would not judge us based on our limited perceptions. Damning us based upon a finite transgression is as ridiculous as saying you can read an infinite God's mind.


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## JayDiggz (Mar 25, 2013)

Zaehet Strife said:


> I agree 100%. But if you want to label yourself as a Christian, and you don't fallow it's teachings, you aren't a true Christian, you are a wannabee.
> 
> A half Christian if you will.


Valid, know your shit before you blow your shit. But that leaves me wondering what to call myself. Half-agnostic-1/3-buddist-3/8-anarchist-2/5-new-age-spirituality with an underlying hint of being baptized as roman catholic. Has a ring to it.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 25, 2013)

But how are we not following the teachings? Until we know waht those teachings are we can't follow them. That's what I started this thread about. 

Not for theological arguments, but to see if there were other's that use pot as part of their prayer life.[

I have been going to church for years (read previous posts) & it wasnt until I started reading the scriptures for myself asking the Lord to open my eyes & for the leading of the Holy Spirit that the scriptures became ALIVE! I'm sure I'm not the only one & I want to speak to like minded people.

You have no idea if I am a Christian. I say I am because I follow Him. But to say I am not because I don't follow Him the way YOU percieve Him is what the pharasies did. 

Part of the freedom of being a Christian is not being tied down to laws that save us. That was all completed at the cross. 

Its by faith alone we are saved & therefore as one of the elect I will be in heaven someday. I think from what I am getting in my studying of the Word is first part of being a Christian is getting saved then the rest is the working of the Holy Spirit in your life. What that means to you is your own. 

I don't judge because I'm not God. You do what you do & someday we all will stand before the Big Guy & then we'll find out one way or another weather we were supposed to drink wine or not drink any at all, or if we were to dance to the Lord or to not dance because its sultry & leads to sin. 

Those are the things the Pharasies faught over & demaned people to do. Jesus spoke totaly against that. He said if your going to argue about it then pretend it doesnt exisr (paraphrase of course.. sorry)

Anyways.

Praise God that we can do this in love.




Zaehet Strife said:


> I agree 100%. But if you want to label yourself as a Christian, and you don't fallow it's teachings, you aren't a true Christian, you are a wannabee.
> 
> A half Christian if you will.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 25, 2013)

That's been discussed. The fact that the words of the bible are more important to some than what the words SPEAK about. Its not what gets put on the alter than make it holy, its the alter itself that makes the sacrifice holy. 
There may be errors in translation or grammer in your version of the Bible (King James compared to NIV) but what they talk about is perfection.

That's my take anyways..


kpmarine said:


> The more I've thought about Christianity, the more I think there are two ways to apply it; the literal, and the allegorical. When you read the bible, and keep in mind the bias of various generations; you get a book that celebrates a person who lives a good life and gives a damn about his fellow man. If you read it as literal; that's when it gets ugly. I think that's an issue that we who aren't Christians have encouraged; The belief that if you don't fully buy into the bible; you are somehow less of a Christian.
> 
> I'm not saying I haven't done the same, but maybe we need to adapt to discouraging the bad in a religion, and encouraging the good in it; rather than just discouraging all parts of it. There's nothing wrong with any religion. When you start infringing one a disbeliever's life though; it becomes a dogma, and not a faith.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 25, 2013)

If you want to label yourself as a Christian, then you must fallow the bible and all of it's teachings, even the ones you may not like or agree with. If you don't, then you aren't a Christian. You would be referred to as;

An apologetic Christian. -Someone who twists the passages of the bible to accumulate their own desires, rather than fallow the holy scriptures.


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## trueg115 (Mar 25, 2013)

I am going to respond back to the previous comments in a little while, but how is a Christian apologetic someone who twists the passages of the bible? A christian apologetic is defined as someone that defends views. Everyone who is a christian that defends any part of the bible in its truth is an apologetic.

Do some people that label themselves as apologetics twist the bible? Of course, but that does not mean anyone who defends the bible is twisting it. Paul had to defend the truth all the time, so did Jesus.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 25, 2013)

^Agreed. So what do you call someone who want's to be labeled a Christian, that doesn't fallow the teachings of the bible? A half Christian? Or a faker? Maybe we could make up a word for it... let me think on that.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 25, 2013)

A Christian Halfling... yes, i like that.


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## JayDiggz (Mar 25, 2013)

Zaehet Strife said:


> If you want to label yourself as a Christian, then you must fallow the bible and all of it's teachings, even the ones you may not like or agree with. If you don't, then you aren't a Christian. You would be referred to as;
> 
> An apologetic Christian. -Someone who twists the passages of the bible to accumulate their own desires, rather than fallow the holy scriptures.


I agree. A Christian is someone who seeks Christ and his teaching. Right?

But just to be clear (sorry if I missed this in previous posts, i'm not fully caught up on the entire thread) is the context of this argument based on a belief that it is a sin to smoke weed? Has that been discussed yet? Is it truly a sin to smoke weed? And therefore if you smoke you are not a Christian?

It would be hard to not "twist" the passages on this argument. Back when the bible was written was mj not considered medicinal? Therefore making it an acceptable practice, Christian or not.


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## JayDiggz (Mar 25, 2013)

Interesting idea: http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1090.html

I bet there was a fourth wise man who brought cannabis.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 26, 2013)

Peter 5:8,9 - Be sober so we can be on guard for the devil, resist him, and not be devoured by him. Realizing how dangerous Satan is, we should keep our minds clear so we can recognize his deceit and resist his temptations. 

The bible is full of passages that surmise being anything but sober is a sin.

Being high... is not being sober. Therefor according to the bible, willfully becoming high from smoking cannabis is a sin. 

Personally, with my views, i don't think it is bad or wrong to smoke cannabis. But i don't fallow the Christian doctrine... if i did, i probably wouldn't smoke cannabis because it is portrayed in the bible as a sin.

But the world is cock-full of Christian Halflings. /shrug


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## carl.burnette (Mar 26, 2013)

But you are comparing us to YOUR understanding of Christian beliefs. 

You are looking in from the outside. 

Drinking wine isnt being drunk. It can lead to being drunk.. Same as weed, you can smoke some weed & not be sinnfully high. It would be like taking Oxy for tooth pain, that's ok but taking 3 to get wasted is a different senerio.

I am talking about using some pot to clear my mind & to open it up to listening to the workings of the Holy Spirit. And as the bible says, what may be sinful to someone isnt to another. And if what your doing is sinful to the weaker brother then you shouldn't do it. Therefore I wouldnt smoke pot around people that found it went against their walk. Same as the bible allows is to drink, but not around an alcoholic because it could cause them to stumble.

But as a non Christian you can't see it from my point of view because as the bible says what we do seems pecular to people not of the faith.


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## JayDiggz (Mar 26, 2013)

So being high constitutes being "not sober"? Even if you take the tiniest of a baby bong hoot and can still function normally after? ie, drive a car, clean the house, have a legitimate convo with the grandparents.

The issue seems pretty black and white to you, Zaehet. When they wrote the word "sober" in the bible do you think they had being high in mind? I think it's safe to argue that we've been "getting high" for thousands of years. Our concept of it is just different these days.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 26, 2013)

I think it all just depends on what you want to risk if you want to be considered a "Christian". As the bible promotes and condones slavery and rape, while demoting women and same sex relationships (among many other concepts that i personally do not agree with) ... those are also "rules" that you must obey in order to avoid damnation for all of eternity. These "rules" are conceptualized throughout the entire bible. 

As a Christian attempting to fallow the doctrine of the holy bible there are a few different things you can do; 

1. You can read the bible, and interpret it your own way. Risking eternal damnation for your soul if your objective perspective of the bible is wrong. 

2. You can allow someone else to read the bible, fallow _their_ personal subjective interpretation of the book, while also risking eternal damnation for your soul. 

3. Read the bible at face value, believe in it's teachings regardless of how they make you feel and if the concepts go against what you think is right and wrong, or if they interfere with your sense of morality. Do not try to justify your behavior by giving the words your own meaning. Only then will you not have to worry about risking your soul's damnation this way. 

It all just depends on what you want to risk. People say they believe in the bible and the word of god. Yet they only believe in the parts of the bible that agree with their own views or values. This is also a cop out and won't work if you wish to achieve salvation and walk though the golden gates after death. 

Like i've tried to explain before, you go to any hard core Christian activist who believe in every word of the bible, a "True Christian" and they won't lie to you either, they will tell you exactly what i am telling you. That smoking cannabis is a sin, that it's not too late to repent, ask for forgiveness and change your behavior to achieve salvation. But if you don't, you will burn for eternity in the pits of hell. 

I'm not here to argue with you, i'm here telling you the facts. I know it's not what you want to hear, but you are going to hear only what you want regardless... _this is exactly what the vast majority of people do when they read the bible._

It's your soul, you take whatever chances you want. /shrug


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## trueg115 (Mar 26, 2013)

Zaehet, if I may, what is your view on wine/drinking according to the bible? It is made very clear that a little wine is okay when used in moderation.


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## JayDiggz (Mar 26, 2013)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Like i've tried to explain before, you go to any hard core Christian activist who believe in every word of the bible, a "True Christian" and they won't lie to you either, they will tell you exactly what i am telling you. That smoking cannabis is a sin, that it's not too late to repent, ask for forgiveness and change your behavior to achieve salvation. But if you don't, you will burn for eternity in the pits of hell.


lol and how many times do you think God has shaken his head at "True Christians"? They've had it wrong before, maybe they got it wrong with this. You don't think Jesus toked? Science tells me that people with long hair and sandals are automatic stoners. Fact.


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## tyler.durden (Mar 26, 2013)

Interesting thread. I was under the impression that once you accept jesus as your lord and savior you can sin all you want and still get into heaven. No?


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 26, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Zaehet, if I may, what is your view on wine/drinking according to the bible? It is made very clear that a little wine is okay when used in moderation.


Does the Bible use the 0.08 BAC limit too?


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## tyler.durden (Mar 26, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Does the Bible use the 0.08 BAC limit too?


Yes. And if you are caught reading the bible over the limit, you have to have a breathalyzer installed on it. It will then not open unless you blow into it sober for the next few months...


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## trueg115 (Mar 26, 2013)

tyler.durden said:


> Interesting thread. I was under the impression that once you accept jesus as your lord and savior you can sin all you want and still get into heaven. No?


This is one of the biggest lies of modern day Christianity. Faith does not produce freedom to do whatever you want, if you follow the Spirit you will not be sinning. It is a crutch for people who are not saved and born again, to think they are going to heaven because they "believe" in Christ. But if they truly believed they would testify they believed by their actions. That is why so many Christians appear just like everyone else, because they arent Christians at all. It has made all of us look bad and perverted Christianity.

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." hebrews 10


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## trueg115 (Mar 26, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Does the Bible use the 0.08 BAC limit too?


The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God

It is obvious when you get drunk and are not sober any longer. Just as it is obvious when you are using marijuana as a relaxant or for medication versus getting stoned or high.


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## trueg115 (Mar 26, 2013)

mindphuk said:


> You are the one with the misconception. Show me where Jesus said The Torah must change because it was imperfect.
> *"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
> 
> *There is no wiggle room here for assuming, in any way, that the Law was not to be in full effect.
> ...


Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 10

Christ fulfilled the law so when we remain in Him through faith we are above the law. This does not mean the law is null and void however, what it means is that there is a greater way, the law points us to Christ, that is all it has ever done, for if salvation was ever found through the law Christ would no longer need to have died for us! His death was in vain then. 

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revelaed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW." Galatians 3

The law shows us we need justification because we are sinners, it does not save. 


As for food, the only reason God ever commanded in the OT some food ot be wrong is because they were unclean, not that they weren't food at all.The New testament clearly shows ALL foods to be good to eat and helpful for our body aka able to be eaten. 

All food is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 26, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God
> 
> It is obvious when you get drunk and are not sober any longer. Just as it is obvious when you are using marijuana as a relaxant or for medication versus getting stoned or high.


No, it isn't, and that's your justification for it. The line between sober and intoxicated is arbitrary, which is why it isn't obvious and which is also why there is a defined limit of impairment under the law.


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## mindphuk (Mar 26, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 10
> 
> Christ fulfilled the law so when we remain in Him through faith we are above the law. This does not mean the law is null and void however, what it means is that there is a greater way, the law points us to Christ, that is all it has ever done, for if salvation was ever found through the law Christ would no longer need to have died for us! His death was in vain then.


Where in the Old Testament does it says that the laws he gave to Moses were really meant to point to Jesus?
Where does God tell Moses that the laws he gave to Moses were only temporary?



> "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revelaed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW." Galatians 3


I see. Where does Paul get the authority to overturn God's eternal law? 



> The law shows us we need justification because we are sinners, it does not save.


why are Christians still teaching the Ten Commandments or telling church members to tithe? Isn't it hypocritical to pick and choose what we want to believe of the "Old Testament?

The Ten Commandments appear in two places in the Bible - in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. Neither version conveniently lists the commandments from one to ten, which is presumably how they would appear when posted. In the most commonly referenced passage (Exodus 20), the commandments cover 17 verses and encompass at least 14 imperatives. Concerning tithing, in the New Testament tithe and tithing are found eight times (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; 18:12; Hebrews 7:5-6,8-9). But all of these passages refer to the Old Testament usage "under the law"! In view of this fact, it seems that today's church pastors should never ask for tithes because, according to your own train of thought, tithes are "old testament" which was abolished.



> As for food, the only reason God ever commanded in the OT some food ot be wrong is because they were unclean, not that they weren't food at all.The New testament clearly shows ALL foods to be good to eat and helpful for our body aka able to be eaten.
> 
> All food is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


http://biblelight.net/unclean-foods-jesus.htm
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/pronounce_foods_clean.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1821249/posts


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## trueg115 (Mar 26, 2013)

So you are telling me that if you were to start drinking you cannot tell the difference between if you are sober and if you are drunk and not able to function normally?


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## trueg115 (Mar 26, 2013)

mindphuk said:


> Where in the Old Testament does it says that the laws he gave to Moses were really meant to point to Jesus?
> Where does God tell Moses that the laws he gave to Moses were only temporary?
> 
> I see. Where does Paul get the authority to overturn God's eternal law?
> ...


"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.&#8221; Deuteronomy 18 
This is Jesus. He was the seed to whom the promise would come to redeem us from the law, those who were held captive by it all their life, which is why it pleased God to send Jesus, in the likes of sinful flesh, born under law, to redeem those under the law to receive the full rights as sons of God. 

Paul is not overturning Gods law, he is doing exactly what Jesus did and said. Nothing he says go against anything Jesus has stated. 

the law of the Lord has been magnified, therefore tithing is not something that we are to do any longer, that is something carried along that should not be. We are not commanded to give 10 percent any longer, but rather the first fruits of our harvest.
"Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written:&#8220;They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.&#8221;


Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
2 Corinthians 9

We are not commanded to give generously what we have decided, not a set amount. The OT tithe was representing that we give our best to God. That is what we do now with our worship and if that includes our money to us, then we do that. It is about faith expressing itself through love. 

As far as commandments it is still 10, which is not even of importance, because regardless if there is 10 or 20 they are still commandments by which we are not saved, but rather they are there to show us we are sinners in need of a savior because no one can keep the whole law for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 

"When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19 30

Once Jesus died on the cross the veil was torn in two, which represented the OT law becoming obsolete to make way for a better covenant. The promise cam before the law, just as now Christ is a seed of the promise. The law came after the promise, and the promise is not dependent upon the law. The law and the prophets testify to Jesus, from the beginning to the end. 

As far as your first link, when Daniel was set upon not eating the kings meat, the real context and reason is bak in proverbs. 
"When you sit to dine with a ruler,

note well what is before you,

and put a knife to your throat

if you are given to gluttony.

Do not crave his delicacies,

for that food is deceptive.
Proverbs 23

The food represented the teaching. If i speak to you of earthyl things and you do not understand, how then can I speak to you of heavenly things? For your sake, food represented teaching just as Christ is our bread of life, just as the Israelite s ate the manna in the desert. now ot prove to you all foods are clean and it pointed towards food as teachings, the reason one was unclean is because false teachings make us unclean because we cant be pure as long as we are living under false teachings, Daniel desired not to be deceived by the kings meats, just as Jesus chose not to be deceived by Satan's temptation in the wilderness to think man lived on bread alone and not on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Many does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Therefor you see Gods words are our true food, just as Daniel did not eat the kings meat, so we do not eat Satan's words.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 27, 2013)

One of the truest statements in the bible has to be where it says that without the Holy Spirit the gospel can't be understood (paraphrase, dont know the verse.. I suspect trueg knows it though..  )

I don't understand why non christians argue what a christian is supposed to be doing. When unless your born again there is no way you can understand it. That first step of faith is the key. Doesnt have to make sense. Most of the time it doesnt make any sense at all. But that first step of asking Jesus into your heart opens the door to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Then the bible comes alive! I mean unbelieveable. 

I hope more people experience what I have experienced in the past year or so. 

Some are arguing about using weed is a sin. Its very possible. Im not saying it is or isnt What I am saying is that the Holy Spirit hasnt moved me on this. There are other things in my life that God has removed from me, nothings I really want to share on here, but trust me, it was a big part. So I know that there is sin in my life & that its being worked on. If God lays it on my heart that weeds bad then its gone. Its that simple.

I made the decission to turn my entire life over to Him & I am trying to do that daily. Total submission to His will. What ever that will is. 

But were not talking blind alegiance. The bible says to test the spirits. I see the friuts of the spirit & I honestly do not see my using weed as part of my prayer life as a sin. I have seen nothing but growth in my spiritual walk with the Lord.

That is the freedom we get from Christ. Its not that we try not to sin because its the law, we try not to sin because the Spirit provides us a conscience. Thats biblical too.. once again I dont know the scripture. Romans I think.

Anyways... 

Later


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## JayDiggz (Mar 27, 2013)

Amen brother, glad you're feeling good about your spiritual journey.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 27, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Zaehet, if I may, what is your view on wine/drinking according to the bible? It is made very clear that a little wine is okay when used in moderation.


Getting drunk is clearly a sin for Christians. No one is exempt from sin, including Christians who truly believe in the concept of sin. A Christian can't constantly abuse alcohol and keep asking for forgiveness, that isn't how repentance works. Jesus never got drunk when he was human, and he calls on Christians to follow his examples. Jesus turned water into wine, but it was for celebratory purposes. They drank the wine responsibly, and no one got intoxicated off it. Christians are supposed to be examples for everyone else, and getting drunk _or high_ is a bad example for others. 

If you drink one 5 ounce glass of wine, or one 12 ounce glass of beer... without gaining any effects of intoxication or inebriation, if you can stay sober, according to the bible this is ok for you to do. 

Although, i would be weary of cannabis use. Can you take one hit, and keep from getting high? Can you take one hit and stay sober? According to the bible, if you can't then don't do it. If you do, and you keep doing it without exercising repentance and asking for forgiveness as well as discontinuing the behavior you risk eternal damnation for your soul. 

In my opinion... what is the point to drinking alcohol or smoking cannabis if you aren't going to catch a buzz or get high? Regardless, if you are a Christian, according to the bible, if you do and continue to do so... you will burn, there are no exceptions. 

No Christian is exempt from these principles or rules. If you believe you are, and you consider yourself a Christian, be prepared to pay for your sins against Christ as you stand before our lord and savior on the day of your body's death.


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## trueg115 (Mar 27, 2013)

Zaehet, I agree with absolutely everything you just said. That is why i am confused as to why you have misunderstood what I have been saying the whole time. I repeatedly mentioned that I am not in it to get high or stoned, and as far as why would you do it, but for the relaxing effects and medical effects. Similar to how Paul mentioned to use a little wine for stomach problems.

Are we as Christians going to be healed of our diseases? Yes, it is made clear diseases in this body will almost always, unless the Lords will is otherwise, be healed by Gods power. As it is, sometimes it is not Gods will to heal yet, I myself suffer from certain medical problems which is why I use it. I would never condone the use of cannabis towards other christians to use it just to use it to get high. Please don't misread that. I think you will find out we are closer to the same page then you previously thought.

When I myself smoke, I only take one puff as you stated and it does not get me intoxicated, but rather takes away pain so I can go about my regular duties. 

I wholeheartedly agree about getting drunk, there is no way for a christian to do it and if they do it then ask for forgiveness afterwards that directly goes against grace and also Hebrews where it mentions that we cannot continue to deliberately sin.


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## carl.burnette (Mar 27, 2013)

Rereading the entire thread. I forgot to mention that I was taking Atavan for anxiety (Dr.s Prescription) That was what started me with weed. It worked far better than the Attavan & I wasnt so sleepy.

I never have taken weed to get baked. I have had a toke or 2 more than required for sure, but to be honest that was just lack of experience on my part. I am very aware now how much I need to smoke. The only time I can't say for sure is when I try a new strain or a new grow. Just because I dont know the strength & there have certainly been some creepers in the mix. 

That's where the grace comes in I think. There's a part in the old test where the priest would make a sacrifice for unknown sins ie if a jew somehow became unclean without his knowing ie touched something after a woman on her period touched.. wola, unclean.. I believe God judges the intentions of the heart.


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## DonPepe (Mar 27, 2013)

its adorable when we as humans feel we can judge God biased on our personal opinions. Its funny that you would try rather than simply disregarding the idea God all together in favor of your personal views.

If your Bible says the earth is flat you are not using the King James 1611 translation. It makes it pretty clear except in the most specific of cases when a phrase such as "the four corners", despite the general use of such a phrase to refer to the far extents of north south east and west. while on the other hand it refers to globe, or sphere, or circle of the world much more often and when describing the physical characteristics rather than the simply referring the all of something within the corners of the earth. 

There is no factual evidence to compel anyone to believe the Bible, i will be the first to tell you that, well no actually the Bible will be but that's irrelevant. But if your looking for an unquestionable reason then you will not find it, else faith would be pointless. I think the idea of faith might be rationalized as an understanding beyond what can be measured, proven, tested, or at times understood. where as science is the quest to remove things from that category so that we can place attributes to them that we can understand and "regulate" as humans. I do not see it as a battle between the 2 but rather as a race where our goal is to go as far as possible, but it would be unrealistic to expect to catch the builder of the course just because we understand more and more of the obstacles every day.


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## Padawanbater2 (Mar 27, 2013)

There is no rationalization for faith

@ carl.burnette, I feel its a cop out to say that you have to be born again to understand God. If you don't think every atheist alive has done what you say is required to be born again, you're absolutely mistaken. So clearly, simply 'being born again' is not the answer. Why does it work for some but not for others? If you plan on responding with something about how atheists never _truly_ submit or they never _really_ believe, don't bother, because that is also a cop out.


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## trueg115 (Mar 27, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> There is no rationalization for faith
> 
> @ carl.burnette, I feel its a cop out to say that you have to be born again to understand God. If you don't think every atheist alive has done what you say is required to be born again, you're absolutely mistaken. So clearly, simply 'being born again' is not the answer. Why does it work for some but not for others? If you plan on responding with something about how atheists never _truly_ submit or they never _really_ believe, don't bother, because that is also a cop out.


Jesus replied, &#8220;Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP]a[/SUP] &#8221; &#8220;How can someone be born when they are old?&#8221; Nicodemus asked. &#8220;Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother&#8217;s womb to be born!&#8221;

Jesus answered, &#8220;Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, &#8216;You must be born again.&#8217; The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.&#8221;

&#8220;How can this be?&#8221; Nicodemus asked.

&#8220;You are Israel&#8217;s teacher,&#8221; said Jesus, &#8220;and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
John 3


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 27, 2013)

I know that i hadn't smoked for about 6 months, and now that i've quit for a while i don't really like smoking very often. Maybe once every week or two. And i tell you what, after i take just one hit even off of some bunk cannabis... i get high as a kite for hours.

Even if you don't use it to get high, it doesn't matter what your personal intentions are to God. What matters is your undying loyalty to him. Even if you "accidentally" get high, he will know, and you will be judged accordingly. 

Like i've said before, it's your risk... are you willing to risk eternal damnation for your soul in the afterlife for a hit of weed? It's your choice, and your risk. No one else can save you from hell but yourself.


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## JayDiggz (Mar 28, 2013)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Like i've said before, it's your risk... are you willing to risk eternal damnation for your soul in the afterlife for a hit of weed? It's your choice, and your risk. No one else can save you from hell but yourself.


Eternal Damnation is a matter of subjectivity. The variety of doctrines that have birthed from the Christian movements are proof that there is no one set way to be a Christian.


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## BustinScales510 (Mar 28, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Zaehet, I agree with absolutely everything you just said. That is why i am confused as to why you have misunderstood what I have been saying the whole time. I repeatedly mentioned that I am not in it to get high or stoned, and as far as why would you do it, but for the relaxing effects and medical effects. Similar to how Paul mentioned to use a little wine for stomach problems.
> 
> Are we as Christians going to be healed of our diseases? Yes, it is made clear diseases in this body will almost always, unless the Lords will is otherwise, be healed by Gods power. As it is, sometimes it is not Gods will to heal yet, I myself suffer from certain medical problems which is why I use it. I would never condone the use of cannabis towards other christians to use it just to use it to get high. Please don't misread that. I think you will find out we are closer to the same page then you previously thought.
> 
> ...


You smoke pot because it makes you feel a certain way, different than you did before you smoked it. That feeling is being not sober,also known as high. What you call the "relaxing effects and medical effects" is called being high. There are of course different levels of being high, but being high and being sober are mutually exclusive, regardless of the pedantic wordplay you use to justify your usage.

Edit* Im obviously not condemning you for using marijuana and Im glad it helps you, just noting that it seems like splitting hairs to say you only use enough to still be sober.


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 28, 2013)

BustinScales510 said:


> You smoke pot because it makes you feel a certain way, different than you did before you smoked it. That feeling is being not sober,also known as high. What you call the "relaxing effects and medical effects" is called being high. There are of course different levels of being high, but being high and being sober are mutually exclusive, regardless of the pedantic wordplay you use to justify your usage.
> 
> Edit* Im obviously not condemning you for using marijuana and Im glad it helps you, just noting that it seems like splitting hairs to say you only use enough to still be sober.


I agree with you, especially on the second part. The thing is though, that too many would be Christians out there want to be labeled as so... yet go against it's teachings with petty justification. 

I would definitely rather hang out with a pretend Christian who smokes pot rather than a true Christian who thinks it would send you to hell... yet according to the bible that's exactly what would happen regardless of your personal interpretation of the bible. 

I do understand more than anyone that living life in uncertainty can be a very scary and sometimes painful thing to do... but alleviating that pain with a religion that you change to fit your own likes and dislikes is full of contradictory thinking, and i don't see it giving you peace of mind in this life or the next, if there is one. 

You aren't a Christian if you smoke cannabis... you are just pretending to be one. Justify as you may but according to the bible, if the Christian doctrine is true, you will spend eternity in hell if you get high from using it. /shrug


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## NatesBaked (Mar 30, 2013)

I like the idea of this, I recently saved a link of a thread on some forum about how Cannabis was used in the Old Testament times but I haven't been to church or even talked to Him in so long.


Added the link right quick.
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/420-religion/80842-holy-herb-sacraments-cannabis.html


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## Zaehet Strife (Mar 30, 2013)

NatesBaked said:


> I like the idea of this, I recently saved a link of a thread on some forum about how Cannabis was used in the Old Testament times but I haven't been to church or even talked to Him in so long.
> 
> 
> Added the link right quick.
> http://www.420magazine.com/forums/420-religion/80842-holy-herb-sacraments-cannabis.html


Interesting read. I wonder if they call themselves Cannachristian's instead of Christian's, or Cannabrew's instead of Hebrew's? Kinda still sucks for would be Christian's still though... the only way around saving their souls from eternal damnation for smoking the herb is to change their religion or relinquish it. Which, according to the bible, would apparently send them to hell anyways. Sounds like the old fashion stuck between a rock and a hard place predicament. 

In my personal opinion though, disregarding all religion... if there is heaven or hell, if you do not harm anyone and do more good than bad and what is right you go to heaven. You harm others and do more bad than good and what is wrong you go to hell. But for some reason i doubt those places exist to begin with.

I personally would rather do good onto others through the love of my own heart, rather than through the fear of eternal damnation. Plus, a book that promotes rape, slavery, genocide, racism and discrimination towards women and homosexuals...doesn't really seem like a book anyone should want to fallow or take moral advice from.

/shrug

(If you want to try to find a way to live a peaceful love filled life, i would try Zen Buddhism. It's more so guidelines to living rightly rather than a religion)


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## NatesBaked (Mar 30, 2013)

^ I actually until recently had a much older mentor-type person who grew and told me about the 3 Pillars of Zen and all of that. It's very interesting.


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## nameno (Apr 1, 2013)

My relationship tells me how he wants me to live. I am to try to love everyone,even if there are things I don't like about them.
I can share 1 thing with you,it aint nothing I do that saves me,it's what he has already done. He loved me so much he laid his life down to pay for all my sins,past,present,& future. Yours too. Peace love ya brother.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 1, 2013)

nameno said:


> My relationship tells me how he wants me to live. I am to try to love everyone,even if there are things I don't like about them.
> I can share 1 thing with you,it aint nothing I do that saves me,it's what he has already done. He loved me so much he laid his life down to pay for all my sins,past,present,& future. Yours too. Peace love ya brother.


Then you aren't a true christian if you don't fallow the bibles teachings through and though with unyielding devotion. Regardless, i am glad you have an idea that gives you a sense of certainty, hope and meaning in this existence... not everyone has that pleasure.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

nameno said:


> My relationship tells me how he wants me to live. I am to try to love everyone,even if there are things I don't like about them.
> I can share 1 thing with you,it aint nothing I do that saves me,it's what he has already done. He loved me so much he laid his life down to pay for all my sins,past,present,& future. Yours too. Peace love ya brother.


Does nobody else wonder why animal sacrifice stopped being enough? Why did sacrificing doves cease to counteract sin all of a sudden? Why did god suddenly need to sacrifice his own child? Surely, an all-powerful being could devise a better method. 

Why did god design a system where he would be forced to kill his own son anyways? It seems like an all-powerful god wouldn't have to jump through such hoops to save us from sin. Did the rock get too big to move?


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

kpmarine said:


> Does nobody else wonder why animal sacrifice stopped being enough? Why did sacrificing doves cease to counteract sin all of a sudden? Why did god suddenly need to sacrifice his own child? Surely, an all-powerful being could devise a better method.
> 
> Why did god design a system where he would be forced to kill his own son anyways? It seems like an all-powerful god wouldn't have to jump through such hoops to save us from sin. Did the rock get too big to move?


I've asked that same question myself to many different Christians, it really does seem like an honest, logical question to ask, after all, the powers believers attribute to God lead any rational person to wonder, why would he design a system like Christianity? Is it really the most efficient, caring, loving, equal, system one would rationally attribute to a god? When examined, I think it's relatively easy for most people who are not under the influence or subject to the many detailed personal biases to tell, it isn't, in many different respects. I believe there must be a flaw in the design if modern technology can create a far better one than an omnipotent, supreme being.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming&#8212;not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

They were only temporary offerings, Christ, the unblemished Lamb, the savior of the world was sacrificed once and for all, for the forgiveness of sins because he was the perfect sacrifice. 

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming&#8212;not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
> 
> They were only temporary offerings, Christ, the unblemished Lamb, the savior of the world was sacrificed once and for all, for the forgiveness of sins because he was the perfect sacrifice.
> 
> ...


And you don't think an omnipotent, all powerful, supreme being, with unlimited power who can literally do anything imaginable and everything unimaginable could devise a system more efficient than that?


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

It is the most efficient system possible. Displaying his great love for his creation, sacrificing his own son for all of us.


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> It is the most efficient system possible. Displaying his great love for his creation, sacrificing his own son for all of us.


Coming to a deal that requires you to sacrifice your own son does not seem like the most efficient design possible. 

To those reading along, this sort of reaction is what I would call typical of believers. In my experience, they can't fathom anything else, let alone something more reasonable/rational or efficient than what has already been laid out in front of them as Christianity. 

@ trueg, how would paying $1.00 for the sins of all mankind not be more rational/efficient than sacrificing my own son for the same price?


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

Because the weight of sin is so great that blood has to be shed to pay the price. It was either our blood or his blood. It is the justice system of God, we have each sinned against an infinitely holy God and deserve the price of hell because of our great sins against him and deserved his wrath but his son took it upon himself, namely Jesus Christ, to pay the price for what we deserve. 1.00$ is going to get you no where, no amount of anything in all creation could pay for sins, even the death of a "good man" because that man would stay dead. Only the begotten son of god could pay the price because he was the spotless one that came to save sinners. Sin is horrible and has a high price, and Jesus paid it for us because of his great love.


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Because the weight of sin is so great that blood has to be shed to pay the price. It was either our blood or his blood. It is the justice system of God, we have each sinned against an infinitely holy God and deserve the price of hell because of our great sins against him and deserved his wrath but his son took it upon himself, namely Jesus Christ, to pay the price for what we deserve. 1.00$ is going to get you no where, no amount of anything in all creation could pay for sins, even the death of a "good man" because that man would stay dead. Only the begotten son of god could pay the price because he was the spotless one that came to save sinners. Sin is horrible and has a high price, and Jesus paid it for us because of his great love.


Anyone outside of the grasp of Christianity reads this as nothing but insanity. 

It makes no sense unless its read in the context of Christianity.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

[SUP]Exactly. That was God's righteous and wise plan. 
[/SUP]For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:&#8220;I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.&#8221;


Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

1 Corinthians 1


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

It's offensive to answer posts with scripture, as it isn't your own thoughts/feelings of what is being expressed. I would appreciate it in the future if you answered posts in your own words and refrained from using scripture to justify your beliefs.

Having said that, it should go without saying any dogmatic belief claiming absolute knowledge would have go to justifications for any opposition. Hopefully you realize these justifications aren't actually justifications for anything and still require logical explanations. Reciting a bible verse does nothing but tell me that the authors of the bible ensured fail-safes if the dogma was ever questioned.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

I come to you testifying I hear the Holy Spirit, just as the bible states will happen to beleivers after Jesus rose from the grave, therefore I am a witness to you that what the bible claims to be true, is actually true. My witness does not come from myself, but from Him who sent me, Jesus Christ. My testimony is weighty, not because it is on my own accord, but because him who sent me is true just as the scriptures testify.


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> I come to you testifying I hear the Holy Spirit, just as the bible states will happen to beleivers after Jesus rose from the grave, therefore I am a witness to you that what the bible claims to be true, is actually true.


No, you are claim to what you* believe *the bible states is true is actually true. You *believe *you hear the Holy Spirit, and you *believe *the bible tells you when Jesus has risen you will hear the Holy Spirit which confirms your preconceived bias (confirmation bias). 



trueg115 said:


> My witness does not come from myself, but from Him who sent me, Jesus Christ. My testimony is weighty, not because it is on my own accord, but because him who sent me is true just as the scriptures testify.


Except there is no way to objectively confirm what you say beyond word of mouth. So why should any reasonable/rational person believe it?


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

I heard from the Holy Spirit long before I knew anything in the bible. I never knew anything about Jesus until one night when the Holy Spirit came to me and revealed who Jesus was, and THEN he told me to get a bible and read it. Afterwards, reading the bible, I saw what happened was what Jesus said would happen to beleivers after he rose from the dead, that he would give the Holy Spirit out. 

That is a witness and a sign to you that what the bible says is true, as a Christian, that does not lie, as lying is a sin, what gain would I have in doing so? 

&#8220;If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true. &#8220;I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish&#8212;the very works that I am doing&#8212;testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. John 5

This was Jesus testimony, and not only did he have the Father as his witness, but his works displayed himself as the son of God, in the same way, my works, which you have not seen because you do not know me personally, display myself to be a true christian.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> I heard from the Holy Spirit long before I knew anything in the bible. I never knew anything about Jesus until one night when the Holy Spirit came to me and revealed who Jesus was, and THEN he told me to get a bible and read it. Afterwards, reading the bible, I saw what happened was what Jesus said would happen to beleivers after he rose from the dead, that he would give the Holy Spirit out.
> 
> That is a witness and a sign to you that what the bible says is true, as a Christian, that does not lie, as lying is a sin, what gain would I have in doing so?
> 
> ...


You aren't getting the point. If you smoke cannabis, according to the bible, you are going to hell, bottom line. You cannot justify yourself out of that fact.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> [SUP]Exactly. That was God's righteous and wise plan.
> [/SUP]For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:&#8220;I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
> the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.&#8221;
> 
> ...


So god can overcome everything but sin? In order for us to be okay with him, he had to kill his son first? I'm not following how that actually makes sense...

Why not just banish sin from creation, seeing as you define all rules for creation, and not kill your kid off?


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> I heard from the Holy Spirit long before I knew anything in the bible. I never knew anything about Jesus until one night when the Holy Spirit came to me and revealed who Jesus was, and THEN he told me to get a bible and read it. Afterwards, reading the bible, I saw what happened was what Jesus said would happen to beleivers after he rose from the dead, that he would give the Holy Spirit out.


Forgive me if I doubt your description of the sequents of events, which is not to say that I think you're lying, which in fact, I don't. I simply think you're interpreting the data received by your senses wrong, or being inconsistent while analyzing it. Or not acknowledging human error. 



trueg115 said:


> That is a witness and a sign to you that what the bible says is true, as a Christian, that does not lie, as lying is a sin, what gain would I have in doing so?


The gain you would have is substantiating your point using a real life example, which, again, you _*believe*_ is true. This seems to be an unresolved issue, you must understand, what you _*believe*_&#8203; to be true and what actually is true (backed up by empirical evidence) are two completely different things. One is substantiated by evidence, and the other is not. One is used when discerning reality, the other is not.. 


I'm afraid the rest of that post was pretty much unintelligible..


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

Because God gives everyone a choice, that is why he allowed Adam and Eve to be in the garden of Eden and either choose his creation and Him, or choose the one command he said not to do. They chose that and sin entered the world, after that point he would have had to wipe out all creation, but instead he chose to love us and provide a way for us to be forgiven. 

And Zahet, you haven't gotten the point because you do not know God, nor the scriptures, if you would then you would understand that smoking cannabis in moderation is not sin. Just the same as alcohol in moderation is not sin. I will not stand by and watch you continue to deceive people into thinking they are going to hell when it is not true. I have done my part, please stop with the pointless comments. That is all on this issue. I have made my comments, with scripture to refute it and you choose to ignore that.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Forgive me if I doubt your description of the sequents of events, which is not to say that I think you're lying, which in fact, I don't. I simply think you're interpreting the data received by your senses wrong, or being inconsistent while analyzing it. Or not acknowledging human error.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


empirical evidence will prove itself when people are around me, as the works Jesus did, will also be done by Christians as time progresses when the will of God comes to pass. I have seen many miracles, performed many, but it is not just these that point to the Father, even though they do, it is our love. Jesus said by this, love, the world will know we are his disciples. You cannot see my love and actions simply by word of mouth over a forum. That is why I do what I can by spreading the word by mouth over here and leave the rest to those i am physically present with.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Because God gives everyone a choice, that is why he allowed Adam and Eve to be in the garden of Eden and either choose his creation and Him, or choose the one command he said not to do.


God gave finite creatures with no knowledge of the infinite a "choice" that they could not even begin to understand the ramifications of; all the while, being all-knowing, he knew the end result before it happened. I don't get a pass for knowingly letting someone commit a crime, why does god get a pass for letting all of us get damned when he could have simply avoided planting that tree? Without your god's creation of it, sin would not exist; genesis makes that clear as day.

Would you give a toddler a lighter and a can of gas and say "Don't light this, or you will surely die."? It's the same principle; people that have no concept of death attach no meaning to it.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

Adam and eve knew it would cause death. God made that clear to them. Why did God plant it there? To give them a choice, he doesn't want to reign over anyone forcibly.


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Because God gives everyone a choice, that is why he allowed Adam and Eve to be in the garden of Eden and either choose his creation and Him, or choose the one command he said not to do. They chose that and sin entered the world, after that point he would have had to wipe out all creation, but instead he chose to love us and provide a way for us to be forgiven.


No, he set up a trap in which Eve succumbed to. He knew exactly what would happen, and used it as justification to torture mankind eternally. Again, if you can't think of a system more efficient than Christianity, you don't deserve to be the creator of the universe. I myself could come up with a system which would ensure 100% of my creation enters my kingdom of Heaven. 100%, am I better than an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, supreme being?


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

No you are not, and it WILL be proven to you in this life that Jesus is far greater then you currently understand. He will send people to you to show you the questions you ask, but when that day comes, will you be wise enough to accept? 

Jesus did not set up a trap, nor a temptation, he set up free will.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> Adam and eve knew it would cause death. God made that clear to them. Why did God plant it there? To give them a choice, he doesn't want to reign over anyone forcibly.


Give a child rat poison that smells and looks like sweets sometime, and tell them it's deadly; get back to me on how many of them eat it anyways.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> No you are not, and it WILL be proven to you in this life that Jesus is far greater then you currently understand. He will send people to you to show you the questions you ask, but when that day comes, will you be wise enough to accept?
> 
> Jesus did not set up a trap, nor a temptation, he set up free will.


How is there free will when there is a "divine plan"? If god knows all, there is no such thing as free will, it's all preconceived.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

kpmarine said:


> Give a child rat poison that smells and looks like sweets sometime, and tell them it's deadly; get back to me on how many of them eat it anyways.


You are in error because you do not know the scriptures. If you did, you would understand these children you are referring to are sinners, they are born with the sin nature and the sin nature despises authority. These children have an innate desire to go with their passions and desires over what is right vs wrong. Adam and eve did not have that. Sin netered the world after Adam ate from the fruit.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

kpmarine said:


> How is there free will when there is a "divine plan"? If god knows all, there is no such thing as free will, it's all preconceived.


God knows who will choose what, all of our paths are set before the Lord, he sees all of our heart, even the parts we don't currently know about. He uses that to work towards his divine plan, you are speaking on matters far grater then what you can currently understand. If you understand God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge, then how can you try to grasp this process already? I am in no way, shape or form, stating we should not seek after knowing these questions, as we should, what I am stating is that these questions are one to seek out first, before claiming to know answers to. If you get knowledge from the church, you should seek out the knowledge from the bible first.


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> No you are not, and it WILL be proven to you in this life that Jesus is far greater then you currently understand. He will send people to you to show you the questions you ask, but when that day comes, will you be wise enough to accept?


This sounds like a cop out, again, as if to say that when these supposid people show, I'll have build up a wall too powerful to breach. "Wise enough"? Is that some sort of play on words to undermine my current ability? "You're obviously not wise enough now, will you be wise enough then?" (and when you're not, because you clearly won't accept the same BS then as you won't now, I'll just confirm that no, you're not in fact wise enough to accept it.. and that'll be that...)



trueg115 said:


> Jesus did not set up a trap, nor a temptation, he set up free will.


There is no such thing as 'free will' in Christianity


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> You are in error because you do not know the scriptures. If you did, you would understand these children you are referring to are sinners, they are born with the sin nature and the sin nature despises authority. These children have an innate desire to go with their passions and desires over what is right vs wrong. Adam and eve did not have that. Sin netered the world after Adam ate from the fruit.


I spent years reading the bible; I was born into a fundamentalist Baptist family. I know a thing or two about the bible, having read it front to back on an occasion or two. Reading the bible is actually what made me realize how little sense it makes. I couldn't endorse a religion that takes it's moral guidance from a book that tells you that your god knew Adam and Eve would sentence the world to eternal damnation , and still let that happen. An all powerful being could have created a world of peace, happiness, and padded corners; instead we have pain, suffering, genocide, disease, and eternal damnation. The bible is not literal buddy. If you read it with consideration to the times within which it was written, it makes a lot more sense.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> This sounds like a cop out, again, as if to say that when these supposid people show, I'll have build up a wall too powerful to breach. "Wise enough"? Is that some sort of play on words to undermine my current ability? "You're obviously not wise enough now, will you be wise enough then?" (and when you're not, because you clearly won't accept the same BS then as you won't now, I'll just confirm that no, you're not in fact wise enough to accept it.. and that'll be that...)
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as 'free will' in Christianity


You are not understanding what I am saying, I am not claiming anything on your current wisdom. I am stating that when that day comes when these answers you are seeking are answered to you, as they currently have not been yet, will you accept them? I am not trying to undermine your current wisdom at all. 

And free will comes at all times, we have the ability to deliberately sin as christians, though that would cause us to fall away from God, and we have the ability to believe in Christ. Jesus wouldn't say anyone who believes has the right to become children of God. Instead he would have said anyone I make to believe. People take out of context this single verse in most churches which leads to a false notion of predestination. "No one can come to me unless the Father has drawn them" is what is taken out of context, and not put together with the rest of the bible which clearly shows free will. It all fits together, much like a puzzle, you cant take a few pieces and claim to know what the full piece is like. You can throw out some suggestions and some possible answers, but you cant be sure until you see the whole picture. Anything could be drawn in art, just like there are things in the bible that have to be understood in the full context of the book.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

kpmarine said:


> I spent years reading the bible; I was born into a fundamentalist Baptist family. I know a thing or two about the bible, having read it front to back on an occasion or two. Reading the bible is actually what made me realize how little sense it makes. I couldn't endorse a religion that takes it's moral guidance from a book that tells you that your god knew Adam and Eve would sentence the world to eternal damnation , and still let that happen. An all powerful being could have created a world of peace, happiness, and padded corners; instead we have pain, suffering, genocide, disease, and eternal damnation. The bible is not literal buddy. If you read it with consideration to the times within which it was written, it makes a lot more sense.


There are many things wrong with the fundamentalist beliefs, many that do not coincide with the true God of the bible. They are one of the worst out there, pharisees. If you go into reading the bible with what they teach, you cannot understand the bible because they do not teach the truth of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit that guides us into understanding the scriptures, without Him we cannot understand it.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> God knows who will choose what, all of our paths are set before the Lord, he sees all of our heart, even the parts we don't currently know about. He uses that to work towards his divine plan, you are speaking on matters far grater then what you can currently understand. If you understand God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge, then how can you try to grasp this process already? I am in no way, shape or form, stating we should not seek after knowing these questions, as we should, what I am stating is that these questions are one to seek out first, before claiming to know answers to. If you get knowledge from the church, you should seek out the knowledge from the bible first.


Yes, god knows all, that's why all that time before humanity doesn't exist in the bible. The earth was "without form and void" before he first human, yet there is some rather compelling evidence to the contrary. Then, there's that business where Adam names ALL the creatures god created. Did he have some sort of submarine tech we haven't come close to rediscovering?


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> There are many things wrong with the fundamentalist beliefs, many that do not coincide with the true God of the bible. They are one of the worst out there, pharisees. If you go into reading the bible with what they teach, you cannot understand the bible because they do not teach the truth of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit that guides us into understanding the scriptures, without Him we cannot understand it.


They read the bible literally, as you are currently advocating.


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> You are not understanding what I am saying, I am not claiming anything on your current wisdom. I am stating that when that day comes when these answers you are seeking are answered to you, as they currently have not been yet, will you accept them? I am not trying to undermine your current wisdom at all.
> 
> And free will comes at all times, we have the ability to deliberately sin as christians, though that would cause us to fall away from God, and we have the ability to believe in Christ. Jesus wouldn't say anyone who believes has the right to become children of God. Instead he would have said anyone I make to believe. People take out of context this single verse in most churches which leads to a false notion of predestination. "No one can come to me unless the Father has drawn them" is what is taken out of context, and not put together with the rest of the bible which clearly shows free will. It all fits together, much like a puzzle, you cant take a few pieces and claim to know what the full piece is like. You can throw out some suggestions and some possible answers, but you cant be sure until you see the whole picture. Anything could be drawn in art, just like there are things in the bible that have to be understood in the full context of the book.


That is the thing, a day will not come when these questions will be answered by Christianity. Christians answer them in vague, non-answers, exactly how we've seen in this thread. 

As I said, free will does not exist in Christianity in the same sense someone wouldn't have free will if offered 'cake or death';

[youtube]DFyuhTwi_OE[/youtube]

Cake: Christianity: Heaven: Eternal pleasure.. or Death: Torture: Eternal torment and pain... 

Tell me, here on Earth, if I came up to you and offered you a big piece of cake OR a .357 magnum bullet between the eyes, would you *honestly* classify such a choice as "free will"? Are you FREELY choosing a fat piece of cake over a bullet to the head? *Honestly*? Be HONEST...


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

I do not claim to have all the answers yet, but I will seek all of these out, just because the Holy Spirit is in me, does not mean he will reveal it all to me at once, much like how Jesus himself had to grow in wisdom and stature until he was 30 and ready for his ministry, so I cannot claim to know the answers to all of your questions yet, but a day is coming when I, along with other Christians will know these answers and on that day we will tell you plainly.


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## trueg115 (Apr 2, 2013)

kpmarine said:


> They read the bible literally, as you are currently advocating.


They do not go farther then that however, they do not teach it accurately. There is no true understanding of the scriptures without someone guided by the Holy Spirit in their reading and understanding.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 2, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> That is the thing, a day will not come when these questions will be answered by Christianity. Christians answer them in vague, non-answers, exactly how we've seen in this thread.
> 
> Be HONEST...


...Pad, I posted a list of "believers" that have made very significant contributions to science. As a matter of fact, without those present in that list, modern science wouldn't be where it is. Your response was 'irrelevant'.

...a list of people who helped make science what it is today is not vague, nor is it irrelevant. So, forget for a second that you know believers who's reality is still skewed, and look at the list again.

In his 1996 encyclical Fides et Ratio Pope John Paul II wrote that *"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth."*[4] Pope Benedict XVI re-emphasized the importance of reason in his famous 2006 address at Regensburg.[5] But the emphasis on reason is not a recent development in the Church's history. In the first few centuries of the Church, the Church Fathers appropriated the best of Greek Philosophy in defense of the Faith. This appropriation culminated in the 13th century writings of Thomas Aquinas, whose synthesis of faith and reason has influenced Catholic thought for eight centuries. Because of this synthesis, it should be no surprise that many historians of science trace the foundations of modern science to the 13th century. These writers include Edward Grant,[6] James Hannam,[7] and Pierre Duhem,[8] to name a few.
Yet, the Galileo affair has come to typify the Church's relationship with science, although it was an exception rather than a rule. Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman has referred to the Galileo affair as the "one stock argument"[9] against the Church. The standard treatment of Galileo as a martyr for science has been overturned by modern historians, however. In fact, his theories were celebrated by popes and churchmen alike, with members of the Jesuits personally verifying many of his observations.[10] Galileo encountered trouble when he presented heliocentrism as fact rather than theory, when he lacked the necessary proofs to overturn long-standing science.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> They do not go farther then that however, they do not teach it accurately. There is no true understanding of the scriptures without someone guided by the Holy Spirit in their reading and understanding.


That's funny... so every preacher i have ever met in my entire life, which is a shit ton, aren't being guided by the holy spirit when i ask them if smoking cannabis is a sin? Riiiiiight, makes perfect sense to me.


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## mindphuk (Apr 2, 2013)

trueg115 said:


> I do not claim to have all the answers yet, but I will seek all of these out, just because the Holy Spirit is in me, does not mean he will reveal it all to me at once, much like how Jesus himself had to grow in wisdom and stature until he was 30 and ready for his ministry, so I cannot claim to know the answers to all of your questions yet, but a day is coming when I, along with other Christians will know these answers and on that day we will tell you plainly.


How old do you believe the earth to be? Since you appear to take the Genesis story literally rather than allegory, what do you do when evidence points to the fact that humans weren't created ex nihlo?


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## silasraven (Apr 2, 2013)

helps you take a step back when you've got major threats on the battle field. group certain things and make sure your battle ready other wise you might be letting things in that will destroy what God gave you to begin with.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> That is the thing, a day will not come when these questions will be answered by Christianity. Christians answer them in vague, non-answers, exactly how we've seen in this thread.
> 
> As I said, free will does not exist in Christianity in the same sense someone wouldn't have free will if offered 'cake or death';
> 
> ...


Damn you sky cake!!! I love Eddie Izzard, funniest cross-dresser I've seen.


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 3, 2013)

silasraven said:


> helps you take a step back when you've got major threats on the battle field. group certain things and make sure your battle ready other wise you might be letting things in that will destroy what God gave you to begin with.


And what exactly are you talking about, for real, no joke, i have no idea the point you are trying to make there my friend.


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## treebrother1982 (Apr 14, 2013)

Hello! I want to jump into this debate! i see the thread has somewhat died a little. Nonetheless, I would like to contribute. Zaehet Strife I like a lot of your points and here is a question for you. Do you believe there is a religion that doesn't have a psychoactive drug involved? I cant think of any. In the Torah the holy anointing oil was comprised of a propriety blend of herbs. One of them is known as Kaneh Bosm. Kaneh Bosm when translated is kan = hemp. bosm = aromatic. It was used in the holy temple for the high priests to commune with God. Kaneh Bosm It has been mistranslated today as calamus. Sula bennet a polish anthropologist made this discovery with no current recognition. Google her for more on that reference. This plant has been a part of the christian doctrine and if it were bad it would specifically been written down as evil. 

In regards to Drunkenness is a sin: Though the bible speaks against drunkenness, its message is Jesus doesn't want you to be subject to more suffering by committing poor decisions (adultery, rage, abuse etc) Here's an example that involves both sides. If you are married and are drunk and a hot girl flirts and makes moves on you may just get to that point of " fuck it, Im going for that poo tang" and commit adultery. However, If your HIGH you are fully aware that the hot girl is flirting and you don't respond to her. Alcohol is a Central Nervous system depressant where weed is not. Weed by classification is a exocannanibinoid. Weed may make you sleepy but works differently physiologically than alcohol. That physiological difference is a important point. Here's Another question. Is cannabis psychoactive? Yes. Is Coffee Psychoactive? Yes. So Where do you draw the line when too much of a psychoactive drug becomes a problem? I think its 1. Excess, 2. your lose control of your consciousness (Believe you can fly off a building, making irrational decisions or compromising decision such as when your drunk). When you are high you are in control of your thoughts. Time slows, your audio is tuned and your awareness is increased when your high.


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## New Age United (Apr 14, 2013)

The one who is without sin, let him be the one to cast the first stone. Why do you see the speck that is in your brothers eye but you do not notice the log that is in your own eye. Judge not lest ye be judged. 

Read very slowly and pay very close Attention to what is being said.

Always be Aware of Space
Time is an illusion but the Earth is very Real
All things come and go but the Light remains Eternal

If you understand this you are now in Paradise

"I swear oh lord their eyes you have closed, to this day you have not opened them, this people's Heart is waxed, and their ears are dull from hearing, lest at anytime they should hear the word and see with their eyes and Know with their Hearts, and I shall heal them"


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## New Age United (Apr 14, 2013)

Why does scripture make such common sense to me but to the avg bear it is completely fiction lmao


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 14, 2013)

New Age United said:


> Why does scripture make such common sense to me but to the avg bear it is completely fiction lmao


...that 'lmao' looks real familiar, do you patronize muffins? Just checking... 

...and, what you wrote here is not very nice. I mean, no offense, but that's kinda laced in pride, eh?


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 14, 2013)

all these threads by fake Christians trying to justify there sins, are starting to get annoying .


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 14, 2013)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> all these threads by fake Christians trying to justify there sins, are starting to get annoying .


Yeah i've thrown in the towel, it's getting boring.


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## eye exaggerate (Apr 14, 2013)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> all these threads by fake Christians trying to justify there sins, are starting to get annoying .


...and those who are just here discussing life in general are interesting as usual.



...just thought I'd balance it out 


*this image is too awesome not to post. The 'smiley' at the right of the pool says it all


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## Zaehet Strife (Apr 14, 2013)

I haven't seen anyone here discuss life.. just their opinion of death. 

Here is an example of discussing life; some jellyfish are known to revert back to their infant stage, and can live indefinitely... which is interesting, and it's about life.


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## Halman9000 (Dec 2, 2020)

I think the Garden of Eden was the perfect temperature for growing plants .
Also what was the soil like in the Garden of Eden .

From a Scientific perspective , and if God was a Botanist I would like a list of all of the variables that effect plant growth . DId different areas of the Garden of Eden have different variables that are ideal for various plants and life forms ?

If God was a Botanist , how would he design a Garden of Eden for plants and animals ?

Halman9000


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## Leeski (Dec 2, 2020)




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