# It’s 100% legal



## Sgt_Dubie (Oct 28, 2018)

well, I’m not an everyday toker, but I’ve been partaking here and there on my free time for a little over twenty years... that changed a little bit lately. Since October 17th, my country has legalized weed and I can now go to the store, pick a strain and go to town... I’ve been a bit on a bender like I haven’t seen since my high school days... Going to the weed shop is like being a kid in a candy store. And when I decide what I want just whip out the old Visa card and away you go.

No more hanging out in a bed bug riddled shack in a bad neighbourhood, pretending to like some dickhead you actually hate just to score a bag of questionable dope... Never thought I’d see it, but I guess it’s here. Plus, now I can actually experiment with different strains to see if something will actually help my conditions before filing all the veteran affairs paperwork. It’s awesome.

Anyway, just dropping in to say hi before I check out the rest of the forum.


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## Ford20 (Oct 28, 2018)

Welcome to RIU and congrats Canada


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## OldMedUser (Oct 28, 2018)

Must be a bit newish to pot history to be happy about Prohibition 2.0.

I've been using pot for 50 years, growing for 40 and the whole thing is corrupt and just a greedy money grab for Harper's old cronies. I've never been a cash cropper and just grow for myself and to share with a few close friends so it's not a case of sour grapes.

Welcome to RIU tho and may your visits enlighten you!


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## BarnBuster (Oct 29, 2018)

Welcome to RIU!

https://www.rollitup.org/t/veterans-get-the-fuck-in-here-now.868187/page-65


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## outliergenetix (Dec 21, 2018)

Sgt_Dubie said:


> well, I’m not an everyday toker, but I’ve been partaking here and there on my free time for a little over twenty years... that changed a little bit lately. Since October 17th, my country has legalized weed and I can now go to the store, pick a strain and go to town... I’ve been a bit on a bender like I haven’t seen since my high school days... Going to the weed shop is like being a kid in a candy store. And when I decide what I want just whip out the old Visa card and away you go.
> 
> No more hanging out in a bed bug riddled shack in a bad neighbourhood, pretending to like some dickhead you actually hate just to score a bag of questionable dope... Never thought I’d see it, but I guess it’s here. Plus, now I can actually experiment with different strains to see if something will actually help my conditions before filing all the veteran affairs paperwork. It’s awesome.
> 
> Anyway, just dropping in to say hi before I check out the rest of the forum.


you don't find it ironic that it wasn't till uncle sam became your dealer that you started to binge? sorry but this saddens me greatly i won't bother with why as i fear it will offend. i will say this tho. fuck rec dispenseries and fuck regulation. it is destroying genetic diversity all so the capitalist pigs can be your dealers. in 20 years this plant will be so homogenous it's not even funny unless we put a stop to this commercial bullshit. without unlimited plant counts for personal use to offset the selections big corp and legal grows select for cannabis is doomed. have you not noticed 90%strains already taste like gsc? please man grow you own, from non fem seeds, with strains not envogue unless they really work for you medically or something


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## Bodyne (Dec 23, 2018)

When I lived in Oregon, many could not grow or grow their own and would have caregivers grow for them and if not, they had to use the dispensaries. Some dispensaries, or clubs before legalized, would give away small amts free to patients, etc or refer you to someone who could help you out. So there is a need for the dispensaries and if you want genetic diversity, I'd say follow Breeder steve on IG and see why he's growing fields of bioweed in Columbia.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 23, 2018)

Bodyne said:


> When I lived in Oregon, many could not grow or grow their own and would have caregivers grow for them and if not, they had to use the dispensaries. Some dispensaries, or clubs before legalized, would give away small amts free to patients, etc or refer you to someone who could help you out. So there is a need for the dispensaries and if you want genetic diversity, I'd say follow Breeder steve on IG and see why he's growing fields of bioweed in Columbia.


i don't consider those dispenseries per se. to me that is a collective and a collective can exist without a rec regulated system. the more we bend the more they will take it is not a linear step toward legalization or progress to say any growing is better tthan none. the community as most charrities are more efficient than companies and governments. i support legalization like that of a tomato. and while there are compromise, as ig there always are, mine are way short of what we have anywhere in this country and key places like cali went backwards


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## Bodyne (Dec 23, 2018)

again, in Oregon that was before legalization. Patients helping patients. Now you just gotta pay the price or grow your own. Or get a caregiver. Or go to the club. Got some options, have to pick one. I want to see the hemp industry come back, my state was one of the biggest producers way back when. Jobs, etc and a whole new market for consumers. Outdoor weed growers will just have to adjust. But being able to grow your own or it not be oil only is a great thing, imho.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

Hey this is my first post here, but I have something to say... I as a Canadian I don’t like where cannabis is going. First of all, our government really only semi legalized it. They created a mechanism whereby almost all of our domestic greenhouse producers of food are jumping ship to grow dope! I see a huge problem here!! Food prices are already high! Some families out here are hurting. The government will allow rich people to sell weed but not regular citizens? 
The police said to me that the only things that have changed on their end is - they have no mechanism to check for pot impairment beyond smell and behaviour? Well what if you just got off work trimming for a rich company? Are you guilty? Cuz you stink? The cops in our area gave up,after the medical grows started, to check on complaints of stinky houses because they didn’t want the paperwork anyway! Why only 4 plants? Why not 2 or 10? The message is unless you are a wealthy outfit you can’t legally sell cannabis like tomatoes? But you can grow what we allow! We just want an excuse to allow the cops to turn a blind eye and stop plugging the court system with 1 ounce busts! It pisses me off! But hey thanks for having me! That’s my rant for the day.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Hey this is my first post here, but I have something to say... I as a Canadian I don’t like where cannabis is going. First of all, our government really only semi legalized it. They created a mechanism whereby almost all of our domestic greenhouse producers of food are jumping ship to grow dope! I see a huge problem here!! Food prices are already high! Some families out here are hurting. The government will allow rich people to sell weed but not regular citizens?
> The police said to me that the only things that have changed on their end is - they have no mechanism to check for pot impairment beyond smell and behaviour? Well what if you just got off work trimming for a rich company? Are you guilty? Cuz you stink? The cops in our area gave up,after the medical grows started, to check on complaints of stinky houses because they didn’t want the paperwork anyway! Why only 4 plants? Why not 2 or 10? The message is unless you are a wealthy outfit you can’t legally sell cannabis like tomatoes? But you can grow what we allow! We just want an excuse to allow the cops to turn a blind eye and stop plugging the court system with 1 ounce busts! It pisses me off! But hey thanks for having me! That’s my rant for the day.


this is nothing new man. all legalization movements are run by PACs and all PACs are corrupt. where i lived was even worse. it was like 2 million in escrow for a grow lcense no personal grows. add to that you could auction your license before ever using it lol. the commitee decides each year who to give licesnes to and its' only a handfull. they base the license off a review conducted by a 10 person panel and it is literally at their sole discretion and it is not a blind application either. i could go on, but this is why i don't support "legalization" nor doi consider a win/progress what many do.
i feel for ya brotha because shit like your talking about is hard to undo. it pacifies too many ppl and breeds complacency. if i even talk like this on some live streams, on twitch for example, i get banned for being like anti recreational etc.. the avg person doesn''t get what is happening, even in lenient places it is destroying the plant thru giving all the genetic selection power to very few, and for a narrow scope/purpose, add to that very little outdoor pollination and no large perosnal grows offsetting this is a disaster waiting to happen imo. diversity will be gone in a decade


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> this is nothing new man. all legalization movements are run by PACs and all PACs are corrupt. where i lived was even worse. it was like 2 million in escrow for a grow lcense no personal grows. add to that you could auction your license before ever using it lol. the commitee decides each year who to give licesnes to and its' only a handfull. they base the license off a review conducted by a 10 person panel and it is literally at their sole discretion and it is not a blind application either. i could go on, but this is why i don't support "legalization" nor doi consider a win/progress what many do.
> i feel for ya brotha because shit like your talking about is hard to undo. it pacifies too many ppl and breeds complacency. if i even talk like this on some live streams, on twitch for example, i get banned for being like anti recreational etc.. the avg person doesn''t get what is happening, even in lenient places it is destroying the plant thru giving all the genetic selection power to very few, and for a narrow scope/purpose, add to that very little outdoor pollination and no large perosnal grows offsetting this is a disaster waiting to happen imo. diversity will be gone in a decade


Yes exactly, and to further complicate matters, we have these companies selling feminized seed and clone only... greedy capatilists pigs that won’t let their genetic material go? Wtf they call themselves cannabis rights activists and yet don’t promote genetic diversity. It’s akin to Monsanto masquerading as organic seed producers. What they promote is capitalism. The won’t release original Girl Scout cookies cuz then everyone would have them. Heck I don’t even like Girl Scout cookies! There are literally thousands of ridiculous names for breeds of grass that frankly look and taste much like countless other named grasses. And what the heck seed should be fetching 1000 dollars and up ?! Is that not greed rearing it’s ugly head? Heck if I got a great pheno I pass that shit around! If I have a great stable strain in seed - pass that shit around... dude share the love! We think nothing of sharing a doob! Maybe brotha makes an even tastier plant than you have him and he returns the flavour? This ain’t the Sinaloa cartel! This is a network of artisans growing an ancient plant that has been used since before man kept records much more than clay on a rock face.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

I will never buy feminized seed or a clone. Solemn promise.
All good seed deserves another.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Yes exactly, and to further complicate matters, we have these companies selling feminized seed and clone only... greedy capatilists pigs that won’t let their genetic material go? Wtf they call themselves cannabis rights activists and yet don’t promote genetic diversity. It’s akin to Monsanto masquerading as organic seed producers. What they promote is capitalism. The won’t release original Girl Scout cookies cuz then everyone would have them. Heck I don’t even like Girl Scout cookies! There are literally thousands of ridiculous names for breeds of grass that frankly look and taste much like countless other named grasses. And what the heck seed should be fetching 1000 dollars and up ?! Is that not greed rearing it’s ugly head? Heck if I got a great pheno I pass that shit around! If I have a great stable strain in seed - pass that shit around... dude share the love! We think nothing of sharing a doob! Maybe brotha makes an even tastier plant than you have him and he returns the flavour? This ain’t the Sinaloa cartel! This is a network of artisans growing an ancient plant that has been used since before man kept records much more than clay on a rock face.


here is how much trouble we are in. read my post, their response, and my response to them under the picture of that guy dale hunt. to me stuff like this reeks of political and career agendas. this woman who either runs or is high up on this open cannabis thing has a video from the emerald cup and she says she is new to cannabis, yet these are the political movers and shakers lol. these ppl are double dipping etc.. https://www.instagram.com/p/Brnxh1qB8NV/


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> here is how much trouble we are in. read my post, their response, and my response to them under the picture of that guy dale hunt. to me stuff like this reeks of political and career agendas. this woman who either runs or is high up on this open cannabis thing has a video from the emerald cup and she says she is new to cannabis, yet these are the political movers and shakers lol. these ppl are double dipping etc.. https://www.instagram.com/p/Brnxh1qB8NV/


Can you say MONSANTO? That lawyer could put handcuffs on growers using any part of their genetic material in reproduction. Total bullshit. Next someone will patent air and water! Oh wait Nestle has been actively pursuing that already.


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## curious2garden (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> I will never buy feminized seed or a clone. Solemn promise.
> All good seed deserves another.


I breed using regular seed as well as making fems for my own use and protection. For example last year I did F2's of Bodhi Jabba's Stash, Snow Temple and Dragon Fruit and I had hoped to spend this year going through his genetics. Unfortunately I had my last Cali Connection Pre98 Bubba Kush on the table and the only way to replicate that strain (which I do not wish to lose since it's jackpot for pain relief and sleep), is feminize it. I did the same with Joesy Wales GG#4 and the S2s are stable, and extremely close to their parents.

There is a place for selfing in Cannabis. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, ymmv


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

curious2garden said:


> I breed using regular seed as well as making fems for my own use and protection. For example last year I did F2's of Bodhi Jabba's Stash, Snow Temple and Dragon Fruit and I had hoped to spend this year going through his genetics. Unfortunately I had my last Cali Connection Pre98 Bubba Kush on the table and the only way to replicate that strain (which I do not wish to lose since it's jackpot for pain relief and sleep), is feminize it. I did the same with Joesy Wales GG#4 and the S2s are stable, and extremely close to their parents.
> 
> There is a place for selfing in Cannabis. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, ymmv


If you chose to do that to preserve material and not market it- do eeet. But the moment you start selling locked genetic material. Hmm? Now I know you can do breeding to some extent with femmed seed but it totally sends the wrong message. Traditionally, seed was traded for goods and services in the old world. Crops were left to self pollinate. Then money got in the way.


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## curious2garden (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> If you chose to do that to preserve material and not market it- do eeet. But the moment you start selling locked genetic material. Hmm? Now I know you can do breeding to some extent with femmed seed *but it totally sends the wrong message*. Traditionally, seed was traded for goods and services in the old world. Crops were left to self pollinate. Then money got in the way.


Once upon a time we believed in spontaneous generation, now we understand Mendelian Genetics. I'm not breeding to send a message. I'm hunting for pain relief phenotypes and it's attendant cannabinoids.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 26, 2018)

curious2garden said:


> I breed using regular seed as well as making fems for my own use and protection. For example last year I did F2's of Bodhi Jabba's Stash, Snow Temple and Dragon Fruit and I had hoped to spend this year going through his genetics. Unfortunately I had my last Cali Connection Pre98 Bubba Kush on the table and the only way to replicate that strain (which I do not wish to lose since it's jackpot for pain relief and sleep), is feminize it. I did the same with Joesy Wales GG#4 and the S2s are stable, and extremely close to their parents.
> 
> There is a place for selfing in Cannabis. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, ymmv


yea feminization can bea tool. i don't take issue with that at all except when say the entire country of morrocco switches from their old cultivars of thousands of years to feminized in one years time that kills the plant gene pool in the region. . not gonna explain the herm thing but it isn't really the selfing that causes it, it's just if it is in the genes it will come out moreoften because it is half the gene pool available thus exasperating a problem that existed not causing it. basically it's definitely a useful breeding tool, and i would use it however i am not for replacing these old cultivars with feminized genetics en masse


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> yea feminization can bea tool. i don't take issue with that at all except when say the entire country of morrocco switches from their old cultivars of thousands of years to feminized in one years time that kills the plant gene pool in the region. . not gonna explain the herm thing but it isn't really the selfing that causes it, it's just if it is in the genes it will come out moreoften because it is half the gene pool available thus exasperating a problem that existed not causing it. basically it's definitely a useful breeding tool, and i would use it however i am not for replacing these old cultivars with feminized genetics en masse


 Do you seriously imagine that the locals would not keep large stocks of seed for their best strains? NO farmer anywhere will completely trust a new technology, especially one that is monopolistic. Feminized seeds are, by definition, difficult to propagate without special procedures, which makes them easier to monopolize. That is how one cedes control to the center, and somehow I don't think that is the Moroccan way. 
Thus I suggest that you're mounting a straw man argument.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 26, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> Do you seriously imagine that the locals would not keep large stocks of seed for their best strains? NO farmer anywhere will completely trust a new technology, especially one that is monopolistic. Feminized seeds are, by definition, difficult to propagate without special procedures, which makes them easier to monopolize. That is how one cedes control to the center, and somehow I don't think that is the Moroccan way.
> Thus I suggest that you're mounting a straw man argument.


yes, yes i do think they will. mainly becaue they are. this is not the only article either but this was written like days ago so follow up if you care to inform yourself on what has been going on allover the world with auto and fem commercial seeds replacing old cultivars in morrocco and elswhere. hell greenhouse seeds single handedly destroyed so many cultivars for the last 10 years or more than i care to get into
https://cbdmagnates.com/2018/12/21/weed-farming-moroccan-style-with-autoflower-seeds/


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> yes, yes i do think they will. mainly becaue they are. this is not the only article either but this was written like days ago so follow up if you care to inform yourself on what has been going on allover the world with auto and fem commercial seeds replacing old cultivars in morrocco and elswhere. hell greenhouse seeds single handedly destroyed so many cultivars for the last 10 years or more than i care to get into
> https://cbdmagnates.com/2018/12/21/weed-farming-moroccan-style-with-autoflower-seeds/


Judging by the article, these are drug-farming opportunists. The real genetics are being held more closely, I imagine. I don't see how this equates to a destruction of important cultivars. Can you explain? Which/whose cultivars were destructively displaced (specifically by Greenhouse Seeds), and to what effect?


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## outliergenetix (Dec 26, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> Judging by the article, these are drug-farming opportunists. The real genetics are being held more closely, I imagine. I don't see how this equates to a destruction of important cultivars. Can you explain? Which/whose cultivars were destructively displaced (specifically by Greenhouse Seeds), and to what effect?


being held tightly by a few is literally the problem. they cannot even plant thiers without it being open pollinated by herm fems or autos or even regs of foreign genetics. it's abotu numbers. commercial is gonna out select local and with no incentive or even worse criminalization for private growers then we are in trouble. good thing ppl like bodhi go around grabbing old seed stock from these regions first hand in an ethical way, not by trading them "suprerior" genetics.


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> being held tightly by a few is literally the problem. they cannot even plant thiers without it being open pollinated by herm fems or autos or even regs of foreign genetics. it's abotu numbers. commercial is gonna out select local and with no incentive or even worse criminalization for private growers then we are in trouble. good thing ppl like bodhi go around grabbing old seed stock from these regions first hand in an ethical way, not by trading them "suprerior" genetics.


List some cultivars whose loss Greenhouse Seeds has caused. I'd also like a reference in the peer-reviewed literature, but the list will do.


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> That statement is total


 Ooh! Noun hunt!! Truth? Wisdom? Iconoclasm? Oh I do love a good noun hunt.

If I interpret your addendum inside the quote as an attempted reply ... please provide a credible reference for your claim. Specifically:
What farmers of Cannabis have used Monsanto to their detriment?

The subsidiary and broader argument is - what farmers have used Monsanto GM (and/or nonGM) seed to their detriment? Actual, current detriment, and not some jeremiad about potential genome loss or contamination? I have heard zero about North American farmers (Monsanto's No. 1 market) experiencing a reduction in crops or operating margins as a result of Monsanto seed. I admit I have not researched the matter. Can you provide primary (so: no blogs, E-mags and other information repackagers/spin doctors) links to reliable accounts of G-8 farmers being hit in the pocketbook by Monsanto (or other mega-ag) seed products?


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

for scientificaly-anointed examples of GM crops being bad.


Old Thcool said:


> It can have unforeseen implications, one is that original strains are controlled only by the commercial breeder and they can do with them as they see fit. *Two, the material they create is modified from it's original state in a way that may not be beneficial and for reasons purely for monetary reasons.* That is why a large movement is on to preserve heritage vegetable seed stock. Which leads me to preservation and regular localized use of landrace species- If these seeds do not continue to be grown in their native lands by their peoples, the original seeds will not keep pace with changes in their original environment and the species risk extinction. If you watch the videos where those guys go around the planet in search of weed seed, one video the videographer asked the main guy " hey you stand to make millions off the seed of these African peoples, if you do will they get a percentage?" his answer... " no unfortunately that's not how our business works" He's a fucken crook! only in it for the money, he paid village elders $40 American dollars for the right to steal their genetic material! So he could make millions selling it as feminized drug weed around the world! Don't know about you but that stinks of foul smelling shit!


This is precisely why I am asking for specific and documented instances. The rest of it (the bolded in particular) puts me in mind of an emotion-driven argument, and such arguments are the foundation of dogma. I am not interested in dogma. I have heard opinions about the evils of mega-ag but precious few documented examples. Thus I am undecided on this particular shibboleth of the green movement. That movement has raped science in the quest to generate the appearance of scientific support for an article of faith, i.e. GM is baaaaaad. I was hoping you and the other guy would have those examples handy, since they are all that separates truth from sloganism. If you ask me, sloganeers are a greater evil than capitalists. Money keeps capitalists conditionally honest; no such brake is on the sloganeers.


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Do you need to see Monsanto take over weed to know it's bad? It was an example of what could happen if business continues like it has been. Original genetics for breeding is extremely hard to find now. It continues to get harder every year.


 Yes. I need concrete, established, documented examples of 
1) Monsanto's GM crops being bad, and
2) a quantitative assessment of the status and trends in Cannabis genetics.

Without such information, I might as well be at a tent revival. That combines two of my biggest peeves: dogma and camping.


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> As for the loss of crops d
> 
> As for the loss of crops due to Monsanto seed? Well *some* have lost entire farms due to Monsanto seed infiltrating their crops! But beyond that, the herbicide resistant plants have caused top soil to die to the point that *desertification is a real concern*. I do not need to substantiate my claims with you as they are an *undisputed fact*. I know *many local farmers* that have been hurt in the wallet by Monsanto, I will not use their names or go into specifics out of respect for their privacy. Fortunately, many of us are trying diligently to use *herbicide free and pesticide free inputs with heritage seed stock* and as much locally acclimatized seed as possible, now if only we can rescue *bee populations?*


To bolded 1: Until you provide documentation, I do not stipulate to this being so. 
To bolded 2: do you have a peer-reviewed source for this? "Desertification" is an evocative and provocative term, so I need hard data showing its progress according to an accepted definition of the term.
To bolded 3: Provide the peer-reviewed link. Peer-reviewed publication is the universal and singular forum for undisputed fact. There is NO other acceptable source of the facts used as premises.
To bolded 4: anecdote, with all the fallacies that pertain to it
To bolded 5: This aligns closely with what I perceive as animist dogma. Being "organic" appeals to my spirit, but my databases do not record a useful fitness/prosperity trend that aligns with 20th-/21st-century "organic" practices. But the word means "buy Whole Foods common" to me; who am I to reject profit from collective stupidity? 
To bolded 6: I like bees. I want to see them thrive. My sympathy here doesn't do a thing to make this complete warm&fuzzy red herring a legitimate part of the rational argument I am seeking on the points I have raised. 

So the choice is binary:
1) provide facts, or
2) I dismiss what seems to be an argument as actually not being an argument, which would of course render further discussion fruitless.


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think in the beginning GM plants were seen as a legitimate way to increase food production for a starving world. My thought is that business found a way to modify plants to make them a lot of money too! On the surface that wouldn't be a bad thing, in reality they sued a lot of people for various reasons and sold a shit ton of pesticides and herbicides that they made as well as mountains of fertilizers. So what started out as a great idea for the world blossomed into big business and lawyers. See it your way, I can't change that any less than I can make a racist like a person of color.


 This reads to me as pure pseudo-argument. Actual argument works from a basis of facts. What you present begins and ends with dogma, thus pseudo-argument. Without clear references to the claimed core phenomena, I am losing interest in what amounts to a discussion of religion.


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Stop trolling then, if you need clarification beyond what I've said you will have to do your own research. I continue daily with mine. I listen both sides of a discussion and base my beliefs on the side that resonates with me. I don't do it for you or anyone else. If you don't mind Monsanto seed and all their chemicals go ahead and use them. I'm not gonna try and tell you what to do. If you like the way the current world of weed is going then we have little more to discuss on the matter. I am civil of course and will continue to remain that way.


What sort of intellect portrays a request for fact as trolling? 
And, what sort of honest broker says "do your own research"? That is the oldest tool of all con men ever. 

But I can do civil too. Happy Holidays, and may your faith sustain you.


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Back at cha, to be honest, The (data) would take some time to gather, it is there. However, with any data, skewing bias is always a factor and as a result we end up going around in circles anyway. We won't be making any meaningful change even with our discussion or any data gathered. So the effort isn't justified.


You do not need to gather it; merely c&p the bibliography. You have one if your argument is actually researched.
So long as it comes from primary sources, your "sour grapes" argument about bias will be minimized. This makes me look on your "going around in circles" suggestion as disingenuous, and as an insult to my capacity for intellectual honesty. Sort of like that sly swipe about racism earlier. You seem to want to discredit me on emotional grounds, which would be scored by most as a "win" while never becoming an actual argument. Good luck with that; I went to grad school. Those folks are the masters at that sort of Jesuitry.

Bottom line is: claims were made about the detriment Big Ag brings to farmers of weed and farmers in general. I am questioning these, as they tend to be rallying points for dogma. Our exchange confirms this. No data = no argument.
No facts = no argument. No willingness to provide facts = Jonestown. I decline the beverage.


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## bearded.beaver (Dec 26, 2018)

@Sgt_Dubie Nice another Canadian. Help spread the word about growing your own.


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## bearded.beaver (Dec 26, 2018)

@Old Thcool and @cannabineer you guys just high jacked this poor guys thread it's his first post and he has you guys bickering. Seriously


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## cannabineer (Dec 26, 2018)

bearded.beaver said:


> @Old Thcool and @cannabineer you guys just high jacked this poor guys thread it's his first post and he has you guys bickering. Seriously


1) @Sgt_Dubie did not recruit me to this thread. So your suggestion that "he has us bickering" suggests a dynamic of which I haven't been apprised.
2)My original request for clarification was to a third party who decided not to answer. @Old Thcool engaged instead..
3) I find it remarkable that you equate his emoting with my requests for data, and call them equally "bickering". This makes me contemplate your dog in this hunt, and what it might be.

To make a complaint effective, ensure that it is accurate and combed free of the classic fallacies. Happy Holidays.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

Yeah sorry my bad, I apologize can I remove my shit? Consider it done.


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## Blue back (Dec 26, 2018)

100% legal in Michigan now for anyone that is a state resident. Can grow 12 plants inside or outside and possess 10 oz of dried cured bud. I do believe that's the most in the US. I'm a med patient so I could grow 12 since 2009. Now any Tom Dick or Harry can. Little excessive but I'm not complaining.lol


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

Blue back said:


> 100% legal in Michigan now for anyone that is a state resident. Can grow 12 plants inside or outside and possess 10 oz of dried cured bud. I do believe that's the most in the US. I'm a med patient so I could grow 12 since 2009. Now any Tom Dick or Harry can. Little excessive but I'm not complaining.lol


Hope your plants don’t make more than an ounce each lol! What would you do with surplus? I wonder? Compost it? Hahaha!


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## Old Thcool (Dec 26, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> Yes. I need concrete, established, documented examples of
> 1) Monsanto's GM crops being bad, and
> 2) a quantitative assessment of the status and trends in Cannabis genetics.
> 
> Without such information, I might as well be at a tent revival. That combines two of my biggest peeves: dogma and camping.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

And so it begins! Calling all lawyers!


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## Blue back (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Hope your plants don’t make more than an ounce each lol! What would you do with surplus? I wonder? Compost it? Hahaha!


That's simple. When it's curing it's not counted as usable smoke. it's not you're 10 oz is until you say it's ready to be your 10 oz. Hell I could say it's curing for as long as I want. That's how everyone does it here in Michigan. Medical you could only have 2 1/2 dried cured oz's.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

You know it’s interesting, here in Canada we just semi legalized weed, as y’all well know. It is apparently legal to have over an ounce on ya and 4 plants per household? No mention of how much weed we can store? 
One thing for sure, you may NOT have weed or paraphernalia within reach of a driver lest ye don’t mind a hefty fine or roadside suspension!


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## Blue back (Dec 27, 2018)

We used to have to have it in a locked box in the trunk or if no trunk as far away from the driver. The new recreation laws don't say anything about transporting it. Besides no more than 2 1/2 oz's on personal outside your home.


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## Blue back (Dec 27, 2018)

Just think EVERYONE in Mich. can grow 12 plants. Over 18 I believe could be 21 not sure.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

Blue back said:


> We used to have to have it in a locked box in the trunk or if no trunk as far away from the driver. The new recreation laws don't say anything about transporting it. Besides no more than 2 1/2 oz's on personal outside your home.


That’s too bad, that’s barely enough weed for half decent beach party! Unless everyone had 2 ounces!


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## Blue back (Dec 27, 2018)

Cops could care less about weed here. Unless your smoking in public or driving under the influence. Witch is nearly impossible to prove unless you narc yourself out.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

I was about to ask where you is until I saw the Mich thing lol


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## Blue back (Dec 27, 2018)

There also expunging any prior marijuana convictions. I have 18 possession of marijuana charges on my permanent record. Any charges pending have been dropped also.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

We Canadians have to be careful not to let border patrol know we smoke or grow pot! Even though it’s legal? Even though you have some states legal the border is run by Feds not state police.


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## Blue back (Dec 27, 2018)

It's still illegal on a federal level. But Obama pass a law protecting state laws from the feds. Go outside state law and you can get hammered on.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

Blue back said:


> It's still illegal on a federal level. But Obama pass a law protecting state laws from the feds. Go outside state law and you can get hammered on.


Obama is old news and your new President is a dickhead. He wants to build a wall between the USA and the world!


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> List some cultivars whose loss Greenhouse Seeds has caused. I'd also like a reference in the peer-reviewed literature, but the list will do.


if you are asking me to NAME cultivars that existed in the regions I mentioned then you clearly have no idea what is going on. I would even question the fact you know what cultivar even means despite your forum status. i don't mean to offend, I try never to "rude", but you are not equipped to argue your point if you think these cultivars have names or you don't understand these were genetics cultivated on individual farms in isoloation throughout regions like morrocco, hindu kush valley, and so on.
if it is proof you are after however then you need go no further than their own strain hunters movies to witness them trading their seeds to isolated locals and offering $50 American for their genetics while telling them how much better a crop they would get using these gifted greenhouse seeds. you really are arguing to argue man because you have no info it seems, which I find surprising given your ranking member status here. you must spend all your time on the flat earth thread or something.


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> if you are asking me to NAME cultivars that existed in the regions I mentioned then you clearly have no idea what is going on. I would even question the fact you know what cultivar even means despite your forum status. * i don't mean to offend, I try never to "rude",* but you are not equipped to argue your point if you think these cultivars have names or you don't understand these were genetics cultivated on individual farms in isoloation throughout regions like morrocco, hindu kush valley, and so on.
> if it is proof you are after however then you need go no further than their own strain hunters movies to witness them trading their seeds to isolated locals and offering $50 American for their genetics while telling them how much better a crop they would get using these gifted greenhouse seeds. you really are arguing to argue man because you have no info it seems, which I find surprising given your ranking member status here. *you must spend all your time on the flat earth thread or something.*


 I am asking specifically about this claim you made earlier:

_hell greenhouse seeds single handedly destroyed so many cultivars for the last 10 years or more than i care to get into_

I'm essentially saying "I do not believe this. Produce supporting evidence."
I assure you, I am equipped to argue the point. I have some training in the search for fact in a sea of opinion, and the credentials to prove it. (You need to be able to read Latin however.) 

I do know that for you to be able to assert Greenhouse Seeds has caused the loss of x cultivars, you need quantitative and testable facts. That requires professional publications in botany, agronomy or economics, and the willingness to list them as your primary references for your claim. "Strain hunters movies" is at best anecdotal evidence and at worst documentary fiction. (I tend not to believe what I see on TV.) In my opinion, your uncritical acceptance of infotainment as documentation makes any further discussion with you useless. You simply do not care for the necessary data hygiene. 

_Ceterum censeo:_ Bolded A and bolded B above are flatly contradictory.


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> View attachment 4255492


This provides the deceptive appearance of answering my question. But to be clear: I asked if there was a known instance of Monsanto's seed products causing a farmer (any farmer of any plant, anywhere) to suffer economic loss. 

Provide one instance; that is all I was asking.

However the double whammy of you posting nonsense that _apparently _answers a question I have (but doesn't upon simplest examination) with your concealment tactics last night (futile as I have your posts locked down as quotes) reveals to me that you're "doing stupid". 
Stupid comes in two flavors: ignorance buttressed by fixity of opinion, or deliberate deception.

I haven't decided which of the two applies to you, but the functional outcome is the same. You're revealing yourself as too stupid to even know how to argue, and I stand no chance of learning a thing from you or the other guy. I am abandoning my inquiry.


----------



## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> I am asking specifically about this claim you made earlier:
> 
> _hell greenhouse seeds single handedly destroyed so many cultivars for the last 10 years or more than i care to get into_
> 
> ...


but I answered your question about my claim. go watch their own strain hunters listen to arjan and franco's own words. I mean it is utterly ridiculous you would ask me to name the cultivars lol, I mean either you are trolling or you have no idea what I mean when I say isolated local cultivars in remote regions. if you want specifics tho their own trips to the congo, other parts Africa, as well as every other region they visited because they did the same thing in every episode or interview. took local isolated cultivars in exchange for $50 provided their "modern" genetics to the villagers to grow better crops thus polluting the local genetics. hell they even were asked point blank do you pay anything back to these villagers other than the $50 they laughed and said no "this is business" - arjan


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> I will never buy feminized seed or a clone. Solemn promise.
> All good seed deserves another.


Don't listen about fem seed.

Nothing wrong with fwm seeds and it doesn't ruin cannabis or cause herms.

Fem seeds are for growing not breeding. 

I have a vast collection of cannabis seed. Everything from heirloom and land race to fems and auto fems. 

I've breed reg and fem. I make fems just for growing. I don't further the line with fem on fem. 

Fem seed has it's place and anyone saying fems are bad or ruining cannabis is ignorant on the subject.


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> but I answered you question about my claim. go watch their own strain hunters listen to arjan and franco's own words. I mean it is utterly ridiculous you would ask why cultivars lol, I mean either you are trolling or you have no idea what I mean when I say isolated local cultivars in remote regions. if you want specifics tho their own trips to the congo, other parts Africa, as well as every other region they visited because they did the same thing. took local isolated cultivars in exchange for $50 provided their "modern" genetics to the villagers to grow better crops thus polluting the local genetics. hell they even were asked point blank do you pay anything back to these villagers other than the $50 they laughed and said no "this is business" - arjan


Unsuitable pseudo-reference. Now if Franco or Arjan had a paper in with say _Journal of Ethnobotany_ and you provided the reference, I could see that being advanced as an argument. But TV is where people will tell you in all seriousness that the moon missions were faked.

You made the claim. The burden of proof or credible support is on you. I do have no idea what you mean, and I cannot even convince you to define your terms. So step 1 is for you to _be precise_ about what you're claiming. At that point it is my job to be precise about analyzing the facts in that claim.

But there is only this tiresome back&forth about feelings and ideology, and you resist taking the discussion to the only currency that matters: peer-reviewed fact.

Explain to me how repeated and civil requests for facts constitute trolling. I have been accused of trolling under circumstances like this, and each time it was someone getting offended when I dismantled an emotional or ideological argument. I see nothing new here today.


----------



## curious2garden (Dec 27, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> Don't listen about fem seed.
> 
> Nothing wrong with fwm seeds and it doesn't ruin cannabis or cause herms.
> 
> ...


They are fine for breeding if you know what you're doing  I've made fems of fems for genetics I've wanted.


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## curious2garden (Dec 27, 2018)

bearded.beaver said:


> @Old Thcool and @cannabineer you guys just high jacked this poor guys thread it's his first post and he has you guys bickering. Seriously


The OP posted 10/28 and has not been back. This thread went off topic yesterday 12/26. Almost 2 months after the OP posted his one and only message. If the OP comes back he can start another thread if he wishes. If you are offended feel free to hit the report button.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

curious2garden said:


> They are fine for breeding if you know what you're doing  I've made fems of fems for genetics I've wanted.


I agree. I've done the same. Bought fem seeds and made more. I kept them for growing. 

I meant I wouldn't go more than a generation or two fem x fem. If I wanted to continue that line I would add a male back in at some point. 

That's just me. I can't even say for sure that fem on fem for mutliple generations would be detrimental. 

When I get a new strain if it is a regar strain I will cross a male to female for more regs and I will spray a female for fem seed from it. 

If it's female seed I will save a few to breed back to a male if I want and then spray one for fem seed. 

I do this so when I feel like growing I can flip through what I have and pick out a few fem strains and not worry about males.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> Judging by the article, these are drug-farming opportunists. The real genetics are being held more closely, I imagine. I don't see how this equates to a destruction of important cultivars. Can you explain? Which/whose cultivars were destructively displaced (specifically by Greenhouse Seeds), and to what effect?


Not to get into it but arjan is bad for collecting strains and leaving seed to those people. One might say it's polite. Some think it ruins the local landrace by doing that.

That doesn't mean that a "cultivare" was lost. Just means they have new strains to grow.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> being held tightly by a few is literally the problem. they cannot even plant thiers without it being open pollinated by herm fems or autos or even regs of foreign genetics. it's abotu numbers. commercial is gonna out select local and with no incentive or even worse criminalization for private growers then we are in trouble. good thing ppl like bodhi go around grabbing old seed stock from these regions first hand in an ethical way, not by trading them "suprerior" genetics.


You have a misconception about fems being herms.


----------



## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> You have a misconception about fems being herms.


actually I don't lol, I explained they are not prone to herming if you read what I wrote correctly. I said the misconception is they herm more and that is because if you self, for example, a female with herm genes even recessive they will show more frequently because of the 1/2 gene. cannabis herms my point is when fems herm in an open pollinated outdoor environment it pollutes the indigenous cultivars


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> Not to get into it but arjan is bad for collecting strains and leaving seed to those people. One might say it's polite. Some think it ruins the local landrace by doing that.
> 
> That doesn't mean that a "cultivare" was lost. Just means they have new strains to grow.


Bing. This expands the "library" of genotypes. 
Should the seed giveaways or sales lead to a situation where the farmers are losing money, I figure they'll switch back to the good old strains. 
But that is an assumption of mine. I was hoping to get some real info. Instead I got the above frustration argument.


----------



## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> Bing. This expands the "library" of genotypes.
> Should the seed giveaways or sales lead to a situation where the farmers are losing money, I figure they'll switch back to the good old strains.
> But that is an assumption of mine. I was hoping to get some real info. Instead I got the above frustration argument.


yea I think the point was it being about the money is what is ruining the diversity, by replacing 1000's of years in cultivation for a quick yield gain or buck. why is this so hard for you to follow? it is not a good thing these isolated farmers are growing modern commercial strains.


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## Laughing Grass (Dec 27, 2018)

I started a small four plant grow after it became legal on Oct 17. It's a little disappointing that we still do not have legal access to seeds or clones yet. As far as I can tell the only ones with legal access currently are holders of a medical acmpr certificate. Recreational users are effectively shutout.

the OCS online ordering for Ontario is kinda lame in my opinion. Very little selection and the prices are crazy for overly dry weed. In the excitement of legalization, I placed an order with the OCS on Oct 17 and it wasn't shipped until Nov 5th. When Canada Post attempted to deliver the mailman claimed my drivers license photo didn't look like me and I was under age. I had to go to the post office, show the same ID to get my package.

I'm sticking with the dispensaries until they have the physical stores sorted out.


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> yea I think the point was it being about the money is what is ruining the diversity, by replacing 1000's of years in cultivation for a quick yield gain or buck. why is this so hard for you to follow? it is not a good thing these isolated farmers are growing modern commercial strains.


 Because I have no sense of how big the stated problem is. I cannot assign quantities to the parameters involved. I am hearing you chanting as dogma ... glittering generalities that I consider unreliable. "Cultivars spanning millennia are being lost! For profit!! To big greedy seed companies!1! Who are ruining all open-pollinated grows1!!~ And contracting the gee gnome!111 Capitalism is in our weed patch and capitalism BAD!1!1!" 

So far nobody has brought legitimate support for these claims, and certainly nothing quantitative - and quantitative data from a real source (not Webtube) are the hinge on which the hypothesis lives or dies.

So, regarding a thing being bad or good, we must first establish if, and to what extent, it is even a thing. Launching a moral argument without having first established a mutual basis of facts is bull____, and I oppose such evangelical manipulation as you are foisting onto this thread on general principle.


----------



## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> Because I have no sense of how big the stated problem is. I cannot assign quantities to the parameters involved. I am hearing you chanting as dogma ... glittering generalities that I consider unreliable. "Cultivars spanning millennia are being lost! For profit!! To big greedy seed companies!1! Who are ruining all open-pollinated grows1!!~ And contracting the gee gnome!111 Capitalism is in our weed patch and capitalism BAD!1!1!"
> 
> So far nobody has brought legitimate support for these claims, and certainly nothing quantitative - and quantitative data from a real source (not Webtube) are the hinge on which the hypothesis lives or dies.
> 
> So, regarding a thing being bad or good, we must first establish if, and to what extent, it is even a thing. Launching a moral argument without having first established a mutual basis of facts is bull____, and I oppose such evangelical manipulation as you are foisting onto this thread on general principle.


well I couldn't find the article again, but on business in morocco just bought 50 million fem seeds for their farm last year, I believe it was the year. i'd say that is substantial, and yet only one example in a larger trend. I believe you can also look up their hash industry figures as the one article I posted eluded to and see the increase in percentage from fem and auto farms vs photoperiod. this is also not new man, this happened in south America as well during the drug wars in the 80's and 90's. that brickweed was often "improved" with external genetics to turn a better crop and profit for the cartels. it is economics and business. greenhouse seeds is not the only culprit just the largest or one of the targets. they have been supplying that segment of the industry for decades sadly


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> This provides the deceptive appearance of answering my question. But to be clear: I asked if there was a known instance of Monsanto's seed products causing a farmer (any farmer of any plant, anywhere) to suffer economic loss.
> 
> Provide one instance; that is all I was asking.
> 
> ...


Dude you are an idiot troll, you just troll and argue in an effort to get peoples hackles up, it's not hard to be a dick anyone can do it. You are lazy and want others to do the research for you, why don't you research peoples claims and prove them wrong instead of trolling them? As I said before Nobody on this forum is required to justify or prove any of their claims especially to you. You make it sound as though you alone can vet what others have written? By calling me a name it proves you are a troll and not nearly as smart as you think you are. If you spoke to me that way in person, which I highly doubt your are brave enough, we would sort this out pretty quickly! I am normally a civil person but I really don't like trolls.


----------



## BarnBuster (Dec 27, 2018)

lol, God help me I luvs RIU sometimes, where's my popcorn?


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Dude you are an idiot troll, you just troll and argue in an effort to get peoples hackles up, it's not hard to be a dick anyone can do it. You are lazy and want others to do the research for you, why don't you research peoples claims and prove them wrong instead of trolling them? As I said before Nobody on this forum is required to justify or prove any of their claims especially to you. You make it sound as though you alone can vet what others have written? By calling me a name it proves you are a troll and not nearly as smart as you think you are. If you spoke to me that way in person, which I highly doubt your are brave enough, we would sort this out pretty quickly! I am normally a civil person but I really don't like trolls.


Asking for reliable information (and I provided the basic courtesy of defining "reliable") is not trolling.

And "look it up" is a classic ploy of liars, evangelists and other predators.

No you inform, no I believe. That is not merely my right. it is my duty. 

As for "being a dick", your effort to characterize honest information search as being somehow impolite or incorrect marks you as one of the New Generation who embraces feelings as fact. You may wish to set the stone down slowly considering the glass house you are standing in. 

Oh, and when did I call you a name? I said you were being stupid, and I backed my statement up. 

So if I did call you a name, that is a violation of TOS. Go ahead and report me if you think so. Keep in mind that while I said you were _doing _stupid, you called me an idiot. 

Set the stone down and walk away slowly, lest your hypocrisy bear consequences.


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

BarnBuster said:


> lol, God help me I luvs RIU sometimes, where's my popcorn?


~sigh~ Welcome to vegan-organic critical thought; pick your robe up on the left and store any original ideas with the armorer.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> Not to get into it but arjan is bad for collecting strains and leaving seed to those people. One might say it's polite. Some think it ruins the local landrace by doing that.
> 
> That doesn't mean that a "cultivare" was lost. Just means they have new strains to grow.


Could mean they have an invasive species infesting their landrace patch? Could be bad to get Equatorial genetics mixed with Northern wild weed? Maybe not? Definitely shitty that guy refused the tribes people a royalty on future sales. They should have boiled him in a pot and had him for dinner.


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## BarnBuster (Dec 27, 2018)




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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> Could mean they have an invasive species infesting their landrace patch? Could be bad to get Equatorial genetics mixed with Northern wild weed? Maybe not? Definitely shitty that guy refused the tribes people a royalty on future sales. They should have boiled him in a pot and had him for dinner.


So there is the true measure of your militant devotion to dogma. You hold an opinion for emotional purposes (and have refused to provide verifiable, objective reasons for those emotional judgments) and anyone who does different should be BOILED and EATEN.

But somehow I am the troll. Massive critical thinking fail in vivid Technicolor 3-D. Only on RIU can one get such idiotainment*. Something tells me that if you wore a bloodstained black robe in 16th-century Spain you would completely embrace the job. And claim you were giving your victims a BENEFIT. Fie.

*Disclaimer. One can also get such on Webtube by googling "moon landing faked", "flat earth" and "did the Holocaust really happen" and, of course, "celebrity wardrobe fail".


----------



## curious2garden (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> actually I don't lol, I explained they are not prone to herming if you read what I wrote correctly. I said the misconception is they herm more and that is because if you self, for example, a female with herm genes even recessive they will show more frequently because of the 1/2 gene. cannabis herms my point is when fems herm in an open pollinated outdoor environment it pollutes the indigenous cultivars


All cannabis carries the hermaphrodite gene.


----------



## curious2garden (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> So there is the true measure of your militant devotion to dogma. You hold an opinion for emotional purposes (and have refused to provide verifiable, objective reasons for those emotional judgments) and anyone who does different should be BOILED and EATEN.
> 
> But somehow I am the troll. Massive critical thinking fail in vivid Technicolor 3-D. Only on RIU can one get such idiotainment*. Something tells me that if you wore a bloodstained black robe in 16th-century Spain you would completely embrace the job. And claim you were giving your victims a BENEFIT. Fie.
> 
> *Disclaimer. One can also get such on Webtube by googling "moon landing faked", "flat earth" and "did the Holocaust really happen" and, of course, "celebrity wardrobe fail".


These guys should seriously consider posting on this thread:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/feelings-about-facts-for-those-who-dont-science.980713/


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## curious2garden (Dec 27, 2018)

BarnBuster said:


>


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

curious2garden said:


> Once upon a time we believed in spontaneous generation, now we understand Mendelian Genetics. I'm not breeding to send a message. I'm hunting for pain relief phenotypes and it's attendant cannabinoids.


I totally get that, and it's not the home doit yourselfer I am on about, it's the companies mining the pockets of the people doing anything they can to prevent you from breeding with their material. They are the ones sending the message. It's a new gold rush but with weed! I just watched a short vid not long ago on the huge influx of grows in the Humbolt / Northern Cali hills! Holy crap! Like ant hills of weed all over the mountains! cutting down reforested trees. In one area alone they circled over 600 grow sites! They didn't even circle them all! You can easily see them on Google Earth. When the rush is over, most will leave and won't reclaim the land or clean up the mess. Anyway, it's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I am involved with a bunch of others locally that share seed and yes even veggies!


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## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

curious2garden said:


>


 Let me yodel to you the tragedy of landrace popcorn genetics.


----------



## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> I totally get that, and it's not the home doit yourselfer I am on about, it's the companies mining the pockets of the people doing anything they can to prevent you from breeding with their material. They are the ones sending the message. It's a new gold rush but with weed! I just watched a short vid not long ago on the huge influx of grows in the Humbolt / Northern Cali hills! Holy crap! Like ant hills of weed all over the mountains! cutting down reforested trees. In one area alone they circled over 600 grow sites! They didn't even circle them all! You can easily see them *on Google FlatEarth*. When the rush is over, most will leave and won't reclaim the land or clean up the mess. Anyway, it's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I am involved with a bunch of others locally that share seed and yes even veggies!


1) Fify

2) So much passion; so little fact.

3) It is fortunate for you that they'll share with veggies.

You may find a home here 
https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-earth-is-indeed-flat.943686/


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## curious2garden (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> I totally get that, and it's not the home doit yourselfer I am on about, it's the companies mining the pockets of the people doing anything they can to prevent you from breeding with their material. They are the ones sending the message. It's a new gold rush but with weed! I just watched a short vid not long ago on the huge influx of grows in the Humbolt / Northern Cali hills! Holy crap! Like ant hills of weed all over the mountains! cutting down reforested trees. In one area alone they circled over 600 grow sites! They didn't even circle them all! You can easily see them on Google Earth. When the rush is over, most will leave and won't reclaim the land or clean up the mess. Anyway, it's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I am involved with a bunch of others locally that share seed and yes even veggies!


----------



## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> yea I think the point was it being about the money is what is ruining the diversity, by replacing 1000's of years in cultivation for a quick yield gain or buck. why is this so hard for you to follow? it is not a good thing these isolated farmers are growing modern commercial strains.


He or she? Is following-with the sole intent of inciting a reaction. This person is the purest form of troll and won't ever have a regular discussion because this person can't. I wonder if this person has any friends? Does he/she speak to them in this manner? Do they tolerate it? People like this hide behind a computer screen because a fist won't come through it.


----------



## curious2garden (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> He or she? Is following-with the sole intent of inciting a reaction. This person is the purest form of troll and won't ever have a regular discussion because this person can't. I wonder if this person has any friends? Does he/she speak to them in this manner? Do they tolerate it? People like this hide behind a computer screen because a fist won't come through it.


LOL been here since Monday have you.

@Singlemalt 
@GreatwhiteNorth


----------



## cannabineer (Dec 27, 2018)

Old Thcool said:


> He or she? Is following-with the sole intent of inciting a reaction. This person is the purest form of troll and won't ever have a regular discussion because this person can't. I wonder if this person has any friends? Does he/she speak to them in this manner? Do they tolerate it? People like this hide behind a computer screen because a fist won't come through it.


@Old Thcool and @outliergenetix, how would you like to meet some of my crew. To quote Larry Niven:
"Come; let us reason together."


@Singlemalt
@Blue Wizard
@Diabolical666
@Indacouch
@Bareback
@neosapien
@jerryb73
@see4
@pabloesqobar
@charface
@GreatwhiteNorth
@shrxhky420
@kelly4
@Grandpapy
@mr sunshine
@lokie
@evergreengardener
@Olive Drab Green
@BudmanTX
@tangerinegreen555
@srh88
@Karah
@tyler.durden 
@ANC 
@doublejj 
@Gary Goodson 
@dstroy 
@SSGrower 
@dangledo 
@Aeroknow


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## srh88 (Dec 27, 2018)

Abes back?


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## Singlemalt (Dec 27, 2018)

Seems like some folks here do not understand the definition of diversity. Introduction of new genotypes into an isolated population increases genetic diversity into the isolated population. Some of you people are exhibiting a proprietary relationship over the isolated population's genotype because it's new to _*you*_; i.e modern seeds introduced into Morocco thereby interfering with *you* obtaining unique genotypes (Morocco's)


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## Blue Wizard (Dec 27, 2018)




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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> actually I don't lol, I explained they are not prone to herming if you read what I wrote correctly. I said the misconception is they herm more and that is because if you self, for example, a female with herm genes even recessive they will show more frequently because of the 1/2 gene. cannabis herms my point is when fems herm in an open pollinated outdoor environment it pollutes the indigenous cultivars


They are not more prone to herm.

Make up your mind. You just said not prone to herming and then to e next sentence say fems are more likely to herm compared to regs. Your words. 

I still stand with what I said. Fems are not more likely to herm than regs.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

curious2garden said:


> All cannabis carries the hermaphrodite gene.


dude, i just said this. is everyone high here wtf?


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> They are not more prone to herm.
> 
> Make up your mind. You just said not prone to herming and then to e next sentence say fems are more likely to herm compared to regs. Your words.
> 
> I still stand with what I said. Fems are not more likely to herm than regs.


holy shit dude the offspring are more prone to herm if the herm gene is dom in the female plant that is being selfed because it is only that one parent's genes thus it is like as if both parents would carry said dom gene. thus more frequent herms IN THIS CASE, which expllains THE ILLUSION feminizing causes herms. now if you still don't get it after the 5th explaination just go away.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> @Old Thcool and @outliergenetix, how would you like to meet some of my crew. To quote Larry Niven:
> "Come; let us reason together."
> 
> 
> ...


lol dude why are you attaching me to someone elses post. just because we agree you are wrong doesn't make me his buddy or my opinions or comments his. i recognized who you are way earlier in my post. i even said it. so do you feel like a big man now? 
lol, pathertic bro


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

Singlemalt said:


> Seems like some folks here do not understand the definition of diversity. Introduction of new genotypes into an isolated population increases genetic diversity into the isolated population. Some of you people are exhibiting a proprietary relationship over the isolated population's genotype because it's new to _*you*_; i.e modern seeds introduced into Morocco thereby interfering with *you* obtaining unique genotypes (Morocco's)


actually no. it means the dominate traits of the introduced species overtake others in native species. it is a common phenomenae actually. we call it an invassive species when it is referring to wildlife. most of customs jobs is to stop this type of thing. so when morroco cultivars become all auto because that gene is dom over photo in say the case of one region then i would say it is you who don't understand the definition of diversity. open pollination outdoors lends itself to homogenous crops and crops grown for industry are selected for a narrow commercial reason thus also exponentially increasing homogenyy again. look at food. you don't see any heirlooms in the supermarket do you? and many are lost or held tightly. glad that is okay with you, and i am glad you seem to think thta is diversity.
there are two things at play here. the diversity within the gene pool which actually barely changes however becomes harder to "reach back" and diversity as fr selection. we are not selecting diversely, and we cannot let things like auto traits dominate photo period species because in the end we would end up with all autos. in reality if we did it your way we would have hemp because that is cannabis natural wild state or closer to it. so yea, i am for PRESERVING the DIVERSITY of the plant. and diversity doesn't mean how many different heritages you can cram into one plant


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## Singlemalt (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> actually no. it means the dominate traits of the introduced species overtake others in native species. it is a common phenomenae actually. *we call it an invassive species when it is referring to wildlife. most of customs jobs is to stop this type of thing.* so when morroco cultivars become all auto because that gene is dom over photo in say the case of one region then i would say it is you who don't understand the definition of diversity. open pollination outdoors lends itself to homogenous crops and crops grown for industry are selected for a narrow commercial reason thus also exponentially increasing homogenyy again. look at food. you don't see any heirlooms in the supermarket do you? and many are lost or held tightly. glad that is okay with you, and i am glad you seem to think thta is diversity.
> there are two things at play here. the diversity within the gene pool which actually barely changes however becomes harder to "reach back" and diversity as fr selection. we are not selecting diversely, and we cannot let things like auto traits dominate photo period species because in the end we would end up with all autos. in reality if we did it your way we would have hemp because that is cannabis natural wild state or closer to it. so yea, i am for PRESERVING the DIVERSITY of the plant. and diversity doesn't mean how many different heritages you can cram into one plant


Invasive species is not germane, you are referring to introgression. You refer to introgressive hybridization. Further, your auto vs photo example refers to dominance in phenotype.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

Singlemalt said:


> Invasive species is not germane, you are referring to introgression. You refer to introgressive hybridization. Further, your auto vs photo example refers to dominance in phenotype.


i made the clarification in wildlife it was called an invassive species and i was using it in an attempt to make an anology ppl understood. also there is a direct relationship between genes and phenotypical dominance, and in selfing recessive phenos are impossible with recessive genes because there is one parent.
and i am not talking about introgression because no backrossing is happening. uit the opposite is my issue, new things are added without any info on what so there is no control or direction to be able to go back later like a breeder can. my point to someone else earlier is this idea only holds water in a controlled breeding program. you cannot allow this outdoors or you will lose the original thing, or it will be lockedinarjans's vault ig to but i don't count thta it seems others do


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

Singlemalt said:


> Seems like some folks here do not understand the definition of diversity. Introduction of new genotypes into an isolated population increases genetic diversity into the isolated population. Some of you people are exhibiting a proprietary relationship over the isolated population's genotype because it's new to _*you*_; i.e modern seeds introduced into Morocco thereby interfering with *you* obtaining unique genotypes (Morocco's)


to be clear i wanted to add that what you are proposing is one way but that way only holds water in a controlled breeding program. what i mean is if you wanna mix stuff to preserve diversity you must first understand the components indivually so if you take that original thing away for future generations to study by allowing this in the wild then i think it is wrong and the opposite of preserving diversity. now if you are preserving by mixing diverse plants with diverse gene pools then you do so in a way that allows you to seprate these things later, albeit with allot of art to it, not science. so as a hobbyist for example i mix stuff together, but deliberately and in an attempt to pull it out later if need be. if howver i let all my shit just mix without my notes then chaos ensures and i cannot pull shit back out


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## Singlemalt (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> to be clear i wanted to add that what you are proposing is one way but that way only holds water in a controlled breeding program. what i mean is if you wanna mix stuff to preserve diversity you must first understand the components indivually so if you take that original thing away for future generations to study by allowing this in the wild then i think it is wrong and the opposite of preserving diversity. now if you are preserving by mixing diverse plants with diverse gene pools then you do so in a way that allows you to seprate these things later, albeit with allot of art to it, not science. so as a hobbyist for example i mix stuff together, but deliberately and in an attempt to pull it out later if need be. if howver i let all my shit just mix without my notes then chaos ensures and i cannot pull shit back out


What I am quibbling about is the is the indiscriminate use of the word diversity, a current buzzword in many fields used when trying to convince people . It sounds good and obfuscates discussion unless it is narrowly defined each use and adhered to. The crossover of phenotype/genotype positions. An isolated population is not diverse genetically, but the expressed phenotype may be unique in contrast to the whole universal population. As you should know from your bio studies, isolated populations tend to lose adaptability as they become more specialized. What it appears is that you and the other fellow want is preservation without contamination of unique phenotypes, fine I do as well; hence the existence of seed banks. However, rather than take your own measures you wish to stop others so you don't have to take any measures.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

cannabineer said:


> @Old Thcool and @outliergenetix, how would you like to meet some of my crew. To quote Larry Niven:
> "Come; let us reason together."
> 
> 
> ...


What you need them all to beat us up in a back alley? Are all of them dinks?


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> actually no. it means the dominate traits of the introduced species overtake others in native species. it is a common phenomenae actually. we call it an invassive species when it is referring to wildlife. most of customs jobs is to stop this type of thing. so when morroco cultivars become all auto because that gene is dom over photo in say the case of one region then i would say it is you who don't understand the definition of diversity. open pollination outdoors lends itself to homogenous crops and crops grown for industry are selected for a narrow commercial reason thus also exponentially increasing homogenyy again. look at food. you don't see any heirlooms in the supermarket do you? and many are lost or held tightly. glad that is okay with you, and i am glad you seem to think thta is diversity.
> there are two things at play here. the diversity within the gene pool which actually barely changes however becomes harder to "reach back" and diversity as fr selection. we are not selecting diversely, and we cannot let things like auto traits dominate photo period species because in the end we would end up with all autos. in reality if we did it your way we would have hemp because that is cannabis natural wild state or closer to it. so yea, i am for PRESERVING the DIVERSITY of the plant. and diversity doesn't mean how many different heritages you can cram into one plant


Dude these guys are like a Japanese TROLLING fleet. They keep dropping bait and don't really care what they catch! It's amusing, I have seen this bully type behavior many times before. Probably got picked on in school so now they can do it behind a computer screen. It's kinda sad really.


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

Singlemalt said:


> What I am quibbling about is the is the indiscriminate use of the word diversity, a current buzzword in many fields used when trying to convince people . It sounds good and obfuscates discussion unless it is narrowly defined each use and adhered to. The crossover of phenotype/genotype positions. An isolated population is not diverse genetically, but the expressed phenotype may be unique in contrast to the whole universal population. As you should know from your bio studies, isolated populations tend to lose adaptability as they become more specialized. What it appears is that you and the other fellow want is preservation without contamination of unique phenotypes, fine I do as well; hence the existence of seed banks. However, rather than take your own measures you wish to stop others so you don't have to take any measures.


At least you make sense! Yep that's partly right.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> dude, i just said this. is everyone high here wtf?


Yea. I just now caught that. Lol. Yes. I'm high.



outliergenetix said:


> holy shit dude the offspring are more prone to herm if the herm gene is dom in the female plant that is being selfed because it is only that one parent's genes thus it is like as if both parents would carry said dom gene. thus more frequent herms IN THIS CASE, which expllains THE ILLUSION feminizing causes herms. now if you still don't get it after the 5th explaination just go away.


Yea. I admit I misread. 

Herm gene. I don't believe that. Some newer studies I read said something along the lines of that it wasn't a gene that did it. It was either a protien or something. I'm drawing a blank. That any and all cannabis can herm. It's a survival mechanism. I believe some merit to it. I've grown seeds from herms. Back in the day before I ordered seeds. I was actually surprised at the number of herms from the offspring. Way less than what I was expecting. 

It's not really an issue to me. If it's a stable line then nothing to worry about. I mean I wouldn't breed with a herm prone plant. Reg or female.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

On to the debate of big ag. I'm not a big fan of gmo. Though I understand why wanting to use it. 

Then the misconception that hybrid means gmo. 

Let's take vegetables. Yes. I see the need for heirloom seeds. I grow and save heirloom seeds. I also buy modern hybrid seeds and grow them. I've probably grown gmo at some point. 

Same for cannabis. Different things for different needs. I have heirloom or landrace, regs, fems, autos and auto fems.


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## Singlemalt (Dec 27, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> On to the debate of big ag. I'm not a big fan of gmo. Though I understand why wanting to use it.
> 
> Then the misconception that hybrid means gmo.
> 
> ...


The largest known factual problem with GMO's is Monsanto's belligerence in enforcing patent ownership. It started with corn, which is open pollinated. If your cornfield is close to a field growing Monsanto gmo corn then it's almost 100 % your corn will be pollinated some by Monsanto's corn. They have genetic markers and if your corn is sampled Monsanto marker's show up. They (Monsanto) would rigidly enforce "patent violations" and sue the innocent farmer; Monsanto won some of the early cases to the detriment of the innocent farmer. A lot of the Monsanto GMO crops were merely herbicide resistance to their patented Roundup and dicamba herbicides. Which in my opinion was a dumb move because it promoted over use of the herbicides. Just like indiscriminate antibiotic overuse, weeds are and have developed resistence


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> On to the debate of big ag. I'm not a big fan of gmo. Though I understand why wanting to use it.
> 
> Then the misconception that hybrid means gmo.
> 
> ...


idk if this was in response to anything i said, but i never brought up gmo. i also see the benefit, howver i always am one to slow down before we go to far in any one direction. with regards to cannabis i feel like it isa perfect storm of legality by dollar that is gonna exasperate what happened in big AG, but in many different ways and much faster because therre really is no home garden scene or small farm scene large enough to legally sustain heirlooming. i just want cannabis to be like a tomatoe legally and then big AG can be big AG and i'll do me as they say, but i cannot sit by and watch as these politicians and businessmen steamroll the indusrty and leave us all to figure out how to fix it later


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## outliergenetix (Dec 27, 2018)

Singlemalt said:


> The largest known factual problem with GMO's is Monsanto's belligerence in enforcing patent ownership. It started with corn, which is open pollinated. If your cornfield is close to a field growing Monsanto gmo corn then it's almost 100 % your corn will be pollinated some by Monsanto's corn. They have genetic markers and if your corn is sampled Monsanto marker's show up. They (Monsanto) would rigidly enforce "patent violations" and sue the innocent farmer; Monsanto won some of the early cases to the detriment of the innocent farmer. A lot of the Monsanto GMO crops were merely herbicide resistance to their patented Roundup and dicamba herbicides. Which in my opinion was a dumb move because it promoted over use of the herbicides. Just like indiscriminate antibiotic overuse, weeds are and have developed resistence


okay i think your corn example needs clarification. corn is not open pollinatied in the spirit of actual open pollination. what i mean is it doesnt count if al the corn in your state is from the same 3 varietals which it is and there is no wild corn anymore whcih there isn't. the variation is very small in this case and easily deconstructed. the corn you are referring to resembles nothing of the corn aka maize that was here 300 years ago. we have homogenized corn more than like any other crop it's not even funny.
this is from the ny times:
"Within one generation, the new extra sugary varieties eclipsed old-fashioned sweet corn in the marketplace. Build a sweeter fruit or vegetable — by any means — and we will come. Today, most of the fresh corn in our supermarkets is extra-sweet. The kernels are either white, pale yellow, or a combination of the two. The sweetest varieties approach 40 percent sugar, bringing new meaning to the words “candy corn.” Only a handful of farmers in the United States specialize in multicolored Indian corn, and it is generally sold for seasonal decorations, not food."
add to this the following from same article:
"When European colonists first arrived in North America, they came upon what they called “Indian corn.” John Winthrop Jr., governor of the colony of Connecticut in the mid-1600s, observed that American Indians grew “corne with great variety of colours,” citing “red, yellow, blew, olive colour, and greenish, and some very black and some of intermediate degrees.” A few centuries later, we would learn that black, red and blue corn is rich in anthocyanins. Anthocyanins have the potential to fight cancer, calm inflammation, lower cholesterol and blood pressure, protect the aging brain, and reduce the risk of obesity, diabetes and cardiovascular disease"

now sprinkle in the food is many many times less nutrient dense and lacking phytonutirents because of commercial selecting it is not even funn. this nutrition lacking in our food has a correlation to the health problems of modern society. studies have shown this correlation directy, tho it is only a correltationat this point. 

it doesn't take much or long to change a plant from one thing into something completelty different, and we should proceed slowly and with caution, not with a capitalist ferver


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## Singlemalt (Dec 27, 2018)

LOL
You forgot to mention teosinte


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## Old Thcool (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> idk if this was in response to anything i said, but i never brought up gmo. i also see the benefit, howver i always am one to slow down before we go to far in any one direction. with regards to cannabis i feel like it isa perfect storm of legality by dollar that is gonna exasperate what happened in big AG, but in many different ways and much faster because therre really is no home garden scene or small farm scene large enough to legally sustain heirlooming. i just want cannabis to be like a tomatoe legally and then big AG can be big AG and i'll do me as they say, but i cannot sit by and watch as these politicians and businessmen steamroll the indusrty and leave us all to figure out how to fix it later


Well Monsanto does have their mitts into weed, that's a fact. And Big AG is also into weed, there are greenhouse ops as big as football fields growing weed. As far as I'm concerned that qualifies as Big AG! They may lobby to keep us peons from growing weed, maybe sue a few of us for growing something with their polluted genetics in it? Who knows what these pricks will do?


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> idk if this was in response to anything i said, but i never brought up gmo. i also see the benefit, howver i always am one to slow down before we go to far in any one direction. with regards to cannabis i feel like it isa perfect storm of legality by dollar that is gonna exasperate what happened in big AG, but in many different ways and much faster because therre really is no home garden scene or small farm scene large enough to legally sustain heirlooming. i just want cannabis to be like a tomatoe legally and then big AG can be big AG and i'll do me as they say, but i cannot sit by and watch as these politicians and businessmen steamroll the indusrty and leave us all to figure out how to fix it later


That's why I separated it to another post. 

It wasn't towards you specifically. Just towards the general direction of the thread.


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## whitebb2727 (Dec 27, 2018)

Singlemalt said:


> The largest known factual problem with GMO's is Monsanto's belligerence in enforcing patent ownership. It started with corn, which is open pollinated. If your cornfield is close to a field growing Monsanto gmo corn then it's almost 100 % your corn will be pollinated some by Monsanto's corn. They have genetic markers and if your corn is sampled Monsanto marker's show up. They (Monsanto) would rigidly enforce "patent violations" and sue the innocent farmer; Monsanto won some of the early cases to the detriment of the innocent farmer. A lot of the Monsanto GMO crops were merely herbicide resistance to their patented Roundup and dicamba herbicides. Which in my opinion was a dumb move because it promoted over use of the herbicides. Just like indiscriminate antibiotic overuse, weeds are and have developed resistence


That's my biggest concerns with gmo, what you said there.

I'm not necessarily against big ag and better food production. Just keep a seed bank with heirlooms as a back up.


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## outliergenetix (Dec 28, 2018)

Singlemalt said:


> LOL
> You forgot to mention teosinte


maybe lol but i think maize is considered corn where as teosinte is like an ancestor, but idk tbh


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