# Lucas Formula Recipe from Scratch "Really"



## fatman7574 (Nov 8, 2009)

This is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3 
i.e the Lucas Formula

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3 
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014 


This recipe is for a x100 concentrate. That means a combination of 2.5 gallons of Part A. And 2.5 gallons of Part B to which the trace nutrients are added. With all mixed to gether in a dry mix you have the dry mix equivalent of Floro Nova Bloom without the added humus.

This should cost about $35 to mix up. ie about $7 per gallon.


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## bigbillyboy05 (Nov 13, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> This is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
> i.e the Lucas Formula
> 
> Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
> ...



u know ur shit bub, you a botanist?


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## squarepush3r (Nov 14, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> This is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
> i.e the Lucas Formula
> 
> Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
> ...


woot!! awesome, plan on making this my next batch of noots for my next grow (using MaxiBloom from GH now powder)


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## fatman7574 (Nov 28, 2009)

Based upon the most recent analysis of Floramicro and Flora Bloom this is the corrected formula for the Luca Method:

ppm concentrations at a 1:100 dilution

Nitrogen 167
Phosphorus 333
Potassium 397
Magnesium 100 
Calcium 215
Sulfur 133
Iron 3.33
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.00
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03

Ounces
PART A
Calcium Nitrate 14.2
Iron Chelate .45

Ounces
Part B
MonoPotassium Phosphate 21.0
Magnesium Sulfate 13.5
Manganese Sulfate .090
Boric Acid / Solubor.123
Zinc Sulfate .058
Copper Sulfate .020
Ammonium Molybdate .001

Volume of Stock Solutions 1/2 gallon each part

Dilution Rate
100

This is a high concentrate formulation based upon analysis concentrations. The EC of the Part A is 1.08, Part B EC = 1.64, combined the EC is 2.72. Obviously a higher EC then most would consider using.

The PH used with RO water should be 5.4 at 1:100

The TDS ast a 1:100 mix is 1904


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## squarepush3r (Jan 21, 2010)

btw, Fatman, I wanted to ask you, do you really honestly believe there will be absolutely no difference between a home mixed nutrients, and say AN highest product line, including all additives?

So, say a comparison of home made nuts, vs Advanced Nut's, one costs $3, and other costs $700. Do you really think both products will be identical? 

Or is it possible the AN will have 5-10% higher yield or higher quality?

It just seems to be, if they were identical, then more companies would enter the market and bring the price down, with such an easily replicatable formula, there would be huge profits to be made for everyone.

-regards
Squarepusher


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## fatman7574 (Jan 21, 2010)

There are already hundreds of other manafacturers producing nutrients at much cheaper costs than those sold by AN or GH.

I am syaing that given the true analysis of any fertilzer product that the same nutrient of the same quality acn be mixed in y a home. The problem lies in that only a few states require that manfacturers suplly a completer guranteed analysis on the fertilizer products. Those states will not allow fertilizer sells in their staes without this full disclosure. However these states do not have lawsrequring the supplements have a guranteed nayalisids on any of the ingrednats except the fertilizers they contain. These states presently are trying to pass legislation to require that supplements all have full guranteed analyiss on their packaging. Until that time, it is not practical to try to l keep up with all the game playing companies go through to prevent the information be known. 

As far as AN I have the complete analysis on 22 fertilizers produced by them. The others eight formulations contain supplements that they have not willing disclosed. I have the chemical analyisis on the fertilizers but not the analysis of the supplments. As a result those products can not be sold in those states requring c disclosure. However with most of those it is just humic and fulvic acids that have been added. Their supplments I have no information on other than the few that the universtity analyzed. That is not public information so I can not release that info. Just about every manafcturer except AN readily releases full analysis data freely even on their supplements.

Here is the Washington state site for fertilizers. http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/Product1.aspx?action=ViewTable&ltr=G As you will see there are many hundres of fertilizer gurantedd analysis give. All you need to formulate any know n fertilzer is the guranateed anaysis. You will notice though that there are *no AN analysis* on the Washington State site. AN goes out of its way to make as much maney as it can while it can. Washington state just wont play the AN games so the AN products can not be sold there. It is really as simple as if the U.S. legalized growing pot to morrow AN would probably shut their doors tomorrow. The only thing special about AN products is that they do not release to the the public freely any inforation they can withhold legally or illegally. Its really comical as there are no secrets in the industry. Everyone knows exactly what every one is doing or selling. It's all just a money making scam with AN.

I can send you a mixing recipe for any of the main line AN products or any other mnafacturers products for which you can provide the analysis. I also have many guranteed analysis for formulations (such as AN) that are not on that site.


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## tea tree (Jan 21, 2010)

in what doses should I use liquid karma with the gh three part hardwater micro and tapwater. I use their calcualtor on the gh website, as I am sure you have checked out. They use several supplemnts that I feel liquid karma takes care of all at once or at least with a lot more humic acid than they do. 

I challenge you fatman to formualte a proper theory and guideline for the use of lq with gh.


thanks. lol. 


(yu dont have too)

I am just adding it like the bottle says. I am sure to be happy.


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## squarepush3r (Jan 21, 2010)

tea tree said:


> in what doses should I use liquid karma with the gh three part hardwater micro and tapwater. I use their calcualtor on the gh website, as I am sure you have checked out. They use several supplemnts that I feel liquid karma takes care of all at once or at least with a lot more humic acid than they do.
> 
> I challenge you fatman to formualte a proper theory and guideline for the use of lq with gh.
> 
> ...


I'm running a basic Lucas formula, which I am pretty happy with and plan to use throughout my grow. I am using just powder noots.

However, I have to give some credit to a lot of testimony from growers who have had good experience with 'boosters,' essentially PK boosters. I believe GH Koolbloom is like 0-45-25, but AN Hammerhead is 0-9-18 (notice the high K).

I'd like to be able to formulate a home made 'PK booster' type, because I really do believe people have good results with these (know people who get 3lb+ per plant using AN). I don't claim that AN brand name is a magic, but I believe their ingredients can be reproduced cheaply.

For example, these products are shown to have good results:
*Bud Blood*








*Big Bud*






*Overdrive*


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## tea tree (Jan 21, 2010)

oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I am also using the big bud too and not one sign of nute burn, altho I must admit I use it at half str. Nice results. I just res changed and went to the gh nute calculator formual without thinking. I like that calcualor.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 21, 2010)

For a PK booster simply buy monopottassium phosphate. It is used in about 95% of all the complter tow ot three part formulas. It is the most expensive ingredian, but np where as expensive as buying it from some one like AN or GH etc. $5.64 va pond or a bit over $3 a pound in 50 pound bags. http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_268&products_id=332&zenid=b28ee6ea1b71222349c7d0b38a0a2467


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## squarepush3r (Jan 21, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> For a PK booster simply buy monopottassium phosphate. It is used in about 95% of all the complter tow ot three part formulas. It is the most expensive ingredian, but np where as expensive as buying it from some one like AN or GH etc. $5.64 va pond or a bit over $3 a pound in 50 pound bags. http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_268&products_id=332&zenid=b28ee6ea1b71222349c7d0b38a0a2467



hey fatman. Thanks for the info. Is there any way to get the ppm or ratio's of Potassium Phosphate? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopotassium_phosphate

For example, a way to find out say, how much 1gram of Potassium Phosphate would equate to PPM or, N P K formula. This is just I can know how much to use, I'd like to try to replicate a 0-12-25 formula, i see the ingredients that AN is using, but not sure how to convert raw ingredient, to PPM/NPK.

I'm a bit of a chemistry noob, definitely not my strong point, thanks. I do have a digital scale.

EDIT: OK, tried to do some calculation myself

Fertilizer grade MKP contains the equivalent of 52% P2O5 and 34% K2O, and is labeled 0-52-34.

So, I take this, 1 gram of potassium_phosphate (MPK), contains .52g of P, and .34g of K?


EDIT: Think I found my page
*http://www.hydro-gardens.com/fertcomp.htm
*Mono-Potassium Phosphate​ MKP​ (0-52-34)

Potassium Sulfate​ K2SO4​ (0-0-50)

Magnesium Sulfate
Click Here for Smaller Sizes​ MgSO4​ (9.9% Mg)​
Can't find Magnesium Phosphate info



So, for Bud Blood, which is 0-12-25

52 / 12 = 4.33, so 
4.33 x 25 = 108.3 (K needed)
108.3 - 34 = 74.3
74.3 / 50 = 1.48

so, i would use 1 part MPK to 1 part K2SO4 to get a 0-52-108.3

which when diluted 4.3 times, will reduce down to 0-12-25 = Bud Blood (minus a few additives)


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## fatman7574 (Jan 21, 2010)

The Big Bud crap is mainly some mono pottasium phosphate and some epson salts. Added to that are vitamins, minerals and supplements all available at the corner drug store, grocery store or a General Nutrition store. The problem is you would have to spend about $250 to buy a bottle of each. But then you would have "special supplements) that AN would sell for about $10,000. They be scammers.

The Over Drive is simple common fertilizers ans the ascorbic acid is simply Vitamic C.

The Bud Blood is simple readily vailable fertilizers.

AN the GODS OF POT FERTILIZERS are just scammers. Selling cheap shit at high prices. 

For an example it would cost about $10 to make 1 gallon of 100X of big bud. Actually that is not true as you would have to actually spend about $500 to make over 60 gallons of concentrate, then you would still have a bunch of left over supplements. I think I read that it is about $180 to buy i Kilo of Dr. Hornsby's Big Bud in a powder form. That would mix up to 1 gallon of 150X concenrarte. That would cost about $15 to mix up in quanity. Wow, that is over a 1000% mark up. Kinda explains why Big Mikie is whining and trying to keep his pot grower community in line. 
If you want those nalayis in formula form with weight required for sya 100X concentrates just drop me a PM. 

There are to many *I LOVE BIG MIKIE* fans on this forum for me to be posting the recipes on line.


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## squarepush3r (Jan 21, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The Big Bud crap is mainly some mono pottasium phosphate and some epson salts. Added to that are vitamins, minerals and supplements all available at the corner drug store, grocery store or a General Nutrition store. The problem is you would have to spend about $250 to buy a bottle of each. But then you would have "special supplements) that AN would sell for about $10,000. They be scammers.
> 
> The Over Drive is simple common fertilizers ans the ascorbic acid is simply Vitamic C.
> 
> ...



haha, well, I think I just posted something very similar to one of his forumulas, just from some quick information off his website and a calculator. Does my math look ok?

Granted, AN charged 1000x markup, but I do believe they have good research scientist, so 0-12-25 may be effective to start flowering, however if I could formulate it myself would be well off also.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 21, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> hey fatman. Thanks for the info. Is there any way to get the ppm or ratio's of Potassium Phosphate?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopotassium_phosphate
> 
> ...


Send me a PM. What you do with the information after I give it to you is up to you.

ie the Big Bud ppm for the major nutrients is 

200 ppm Phosphorus
400 ppm Potassium
70 ppm magnesium


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## sherriberry (Jan 21, 2010)

one of these days i will ask you about all this stuff, right now i dont have time, so its still worth it to me to buy the stuff from AN.

give me about a month or so, and ill be asking lots of questions...


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## squarepush3r (Jan 21, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> one of these days i will ask you about all this stuff, right now i dont have time, so its still worth it to me to buy the stuff from AN.
> 
> give me about a month or so, and ill be asking lots of questions...


basically, depending on how large a volume of water you use, you could end up saving ~$650 per cycle on nut's


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## fatman7574 (Jan 21, 2010)

The RO water from a standard home sized RO system should cost as much and usually more than the fertilizer if that tells you anything.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 22, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The Big Bud crap is mainly some mono pottasium phosphate and some epson salts. Added to that are vitamins, minerals and supplements all available at the corner drug store, grocery store or a General Nutrition store. The problem is you would have to spend about $250 to buy a bottle of each. But then you would have "special supplements) that AN would sell for about $10,000. They be scammers.
> 
> The Over Drive is simple common fertilizers ans the ascorbic acid is simply Vitamic C.
> 
> ...


Just looked up all the prices RETAIL for the different amino acids used in the BIG BUD. Paying FULL RETAIL prices for all the needed pharmaceutical grade amino acids and the Fertilizers it would cost about $80 to make a gallon of 150X Big Bud. That means Fat Mikie and his boys are probably putting it out for about $20 a batch and charging $180 for the dry powder concentrate that would make 1 gallon of 150X concentrate. Considering its really just a Micro and a bloom but with a too low level of phosphorus and no calcium and nitrogen a gallon of 150X should last quite some time as it should be used in conjuction with a nutrient containing nitrogen and calcium (like GH micro). 

It would cost at Full RETAIL $204 for over 2000 grams of the amino acids (it takes about 515 grams per batch so $50 per batch. That price would likely drop to about $15 per batch buying in a little larger quanitities and buy hunting for low prices. That means Big Mil kie is just ripping and roraing and selling over priced stuff as usual. *Really the only thing special in the Big Bud is the amino acids*. And probably at least half those used provide no benefit. They basically went down the list of commonly sold amino acids and used them all. The rest of the ingrediants are already available in the Lucas formula at a much lower cost. Plus the Lucas mix contains the missing nitrogen and calcium not provided in Big Bud. 

So just buy the amino acids and make your own amino acid supplement and add it to the Lucas Formula or any quality nurtrient formula.


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## squarepush3r (Jan 22, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Just looked up all the prices RETAIL for the different amino acids used in the BIG BUD. Paying FULL RETAIL prices for all the needed pharmaceutical grade amino acids and the Fertilizers it would cost about $80 to make a gallon of 150X Big Bud. That means Fat Mikie and his boys are probably putting it out for about $20 a batch and charging $180 for the dry powder concentrate that would make 1 gallon of 150X concentrate. Considering its really just a Micro and a bloom but with a too low level of phosphorus and no calcium and nitrogen a gallon of 150X should last quite some time as it should be used in conjuction with a nutrient containing nitrogen and calcium (like GH micro).
> 
> It would cost at Full RETAIL $204 for over 2000 grams of the amino acids (it takes about 515 grams per batch so $50 per batch. That price would likely drop to about $15 per batch buying in a little larger quanitities and buy hunting for low prices. That means Big Mil kie is just ripping and roraing and selling over priced stuff as usual. *Really the only thing special in the Big Bud is the amino acids*. And probably at least half those used provide no benefit. They basically went down the list of commonly sold amino acids and used them all. The rest of the ingrediants are already available in the Lucas formula at a much lower cost. Plus the Lucas mix contains the missing nitrogen and calcium not provided in Big Bud.
> 
> So just buy the amino acids and make your own amino acid supplement and add it to the Lucas Formula or any quality nurtrient formula.


interesting idea.

I went over to AN's site today, and noticed they also sell a line of dry base nutrients, however they are no hyped at all and in fact extremely difficult to find anywhere (probably because price markup is less)

*Their Sensi One Grow: 13-4-12*






*Their Sensi One Bloom: 11-8-17*







Interesting that neither formula resembles Lucas.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 23, 2010)

Ha, ha, AN with a cheap product. AN is the most advertised and over priced products on the market. The Sensi formulas you posted are made for growing Sativa strains and thend to produce very tall, spindly plants with very small sex glands. I am pretty sure there are not many indoor hydroponic growers that would have am ny use for those two products. The Sensi one Grow is basically equivalent to GH one part Floramicro and two parts Floragrow. I have no data on the Sensi one Bloom. Only their tow part bloom formulas. GH sells MaxiBloom in granular form. 

Most formulators start out first by designing two part formulas that work together. They do this by first deciding how much calcium to use. So they use enough caclium nitrate to get their calcium level then work from there, usually by adding mono pottasium sulfate next. From there they add their magnesium sulfate. To this they add all their micro nutrients. This is all split into tow parts so selected to allow for strong concentrations without precipitation. ie GH Floramicro and GH Florabloom. AN also does this but they also make a bunch of incomplete formulations and then you have to buy two or three different aditional suplements to get a complete formulation. An example is their DR Hornby Big Bud. It contains Potash, some Phosphorous, magnesiuns and trace elements. It then dumps in a butt load of amino acids. However it supplies no nitrates, no calcium and no sulphur and its levels of phosphorus are too low. That maens you need to try to find another nutrient formula to provide the nitrogen calcium, phosphorus and sulfur. Actually a large percentage of products are like that. A lot of hodge podged partial formulations. Rather than coming out with newcomplete two part formulas they put out a bunch of partial formulations as "boosters" and such. That is probably why so many people are using three and four of their formulations at the same time. When you look at their list of formulations, over 20, and look at the actual ingrediants you can easily see they are just in it for the money, not to provide good fair priced products. AN is out to milk the gravy train as long as its there. If pot is ever fully decriminalized AN will very likely be no where to be found the day after legalization or decriminlization. When every U.S. and reputable Canadian manafacturer can freely advertise that a line of formulations is specifically for growing POT then AN will have lost its marketing edge and it will disappear.


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## squarepush3r (Jan 28, 2010)

@ Fatman

what do you think of this formula for a good micro nutrient/bloom enchancer? 4-14-28 is good bloom ratios IMO.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 29, 2010)

Depends on waht your base fertilizer is. Ideally you want a 3:1:2 ratio. Lucas is not an ideal ratio. It is just a simple seasy to mix formulation to use. It does nor even work as well as using a mixture of Grow and Micro during veg and Micro and Bloom during budding, or even as well as some other even cheaper fertilizers. It is simply a fair working FAD fertilizer blend that an average hobby grower came up with a few years ago. Of the retail fertilizers out there I think at this time the best bang for your bucks comes from *Dyna-Gro Foliage-Pro*. 

https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/295437-methodical-scientific-approach-nutrients-nutrient.html


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## tree farmer (Jan 29, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Depends on waht your base fertilizer is. Ideally you want a 3:1:2 ratio. Lucas is not an ideal ratio. It is just a simple seasy to mix formulation to use. It does nor even work as well as using a mixture of Grow and Micro during veg and Micro and Bloom during budding, or even as well as some other even cheaper fertilizers. It is simply a fair working FAD fertilizer blend that an average hobby grower came up with a few years ago. Of the retail fertilizers out there I think at this time the best bang for your bucks comes from *Dyna-Gro Foliage-Pro*.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/295437-methodical-scientific-approach-nutrients-nutrient.html


 
Fatman

what plant in your opinion has close to the same needs as mj. would it be tomatoes. peppers, corn, etc.

people have spent vast sums of money perfecting ratios and formulas for commercial plants there must be one of these plants that has similar nutritional needs as mj. 

ive been looking at some commercial aero recipes for different plants and although they vary some none of them have the (3.1.2) ratio. why in your opinion is this the best ratio for mj.

Im trying to learn this stuff is why i ask. as you know im trying to find something that will work with my HP aero. currently im trying GH DTW formulation listed on there website. it is vastly different than the lucas i used on the last run. it uses all three parts but as far as i can tell the DTW is not the 3.1.2 ratio. if you get a chance take a look at it and tell me what you think 

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/feeding_charts/GH_KeepItSimple_DrainToWaste.pdf


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## fatman7574 (Jan 30, 2010)

The closet to a MJ plant is the "hemp" plants grown through out the U.S.. during WW II and just after that time. They found that the plants grow best when fertilized as if they were tobacco, corn silage or fodder when field grown and as foliage plants when green house grown. One does have to consider all the early research geared mainly around growing plant in the vegetative state until the plants started diverting its energy into reproduction. Then the testing went into importing ruderalis and hash strains so as to shorten and bush out the plants as the combines could not handle the ntaural sativa plants which were to tall. It wasn't until the 60's that much research was geared towards improving its possible medicinal qualities. 

Consider Green peppers or chiles are 3:1:3, fodder is 3:1:3, spinach is 3:1:4, herbs are 2:1:1.5 while tomatoes are 4:1:5 and very high in calcium. The hydroponic grows in the 50's and 60's showed that MJ responded best to the simple 3:1:2 ratios used for green house foliage type plants. Even AN, low and be hold, who say they are at the forefront of the MJ nutrient field are now putting out Sensi formulas that are nearing the old traditional 3:1:2 formulas of old. Why do I use a near 3:1:2 ratio etc, because over the years I have found it to work the best and have mixed and sold it to dozens of large growers who also swear by it. I also know many commercial growers who mix their own fertilizers and in general they always seem to return to a formula near the standard old 3:1:2 ratio. Recently (the last year or a bit more) has brought about better nutrient delivery systems and therefore allowing increases in the other parameters meaning a k higher potash than from the 3:1:2 ratio.

Lucas is not really a good mix, it is just a fair and simple mix that works. It is a 0.42, 0.83, 1.0 ratio. Nothing like what is really recommended. I really do not know why it made it to the Fad level. I really find it hard to believe that GH even came up with the Flora Bloom formula which is Lucas with humus. It is simply a matter of a manufacturer providing what people want even when it is not a better product. If you actually look at the analysis of GH FloraBloom and Flora micro you would see that Lucas was back ass back wards when he came up with his formula. He advised two parts Bloom to one part Micro. If he would have gone with two parts micro and one part bloom he would have gotten a ratio of 3.3, 1.6, 2 but it would have a mess of calcium at 333 ppm. That high calcium would mean that the reservoir s would likely have to be changed out weekly rather than going for weeks or a full grow by just adding water and more nutrients. 

IMHO neither GH or AN make a really good mj nutrient product for hydroponics, especially not for a good aero system with large tubes or chambers. I really doubt they will ever make a good formulation for good intermittent mists systems such as high pressure chamber or atomized chamber. They do not make formulations for commercial growers just hobbyists and it is doubtful enough hobbyists will ever spend the energy, time or money to move up to the better more expensive systems. The more efficient the system is the greater the difference ratios, and balanced pH's mean. Carbonate chemistry is much harder to deal with when TDS levels low right from the beginning as they are with efficient systems. Consider this: the actual recommended calcium to nitrogen ratio for MJ is 0.8-1. How many retailed nutrients out there do you see where the calcium to nitrogen ratio is that high unless the nitrogen level is very low. That is why the retail manufacturers are selling low nitrogen formulas. They sell low nitrogen so they can use lower levels of calcium. Low level calcium formulations make growers happy as they can go longer times between reservoir change outs and so they have to adjust the pH less and worry about magnesium deficiency less. 

Basically it means poorer quality nutrients, potency and yields for a given growing time in order to allow for easier maintenance and less grower knowledge. It has become quiet common in the last few years for people to say the use plain tap water without problems. That says a lot about too low calcium levels supplied by manufacturers and that is usually an indication that their Nitrogen levels are really low also. Lately the trends has been high phosphorus and high potash, then throw in high calcium and magnesium at blooming. That is strange as balanced nutrients near or about 3:1:2, calcium of at least half to 1.5 to 3 and magnesium about half on the nitrogen or calcium through out still produce the best results. Calcium is really a very good way to control nutrient up take in efficient systems. As long as the ratio of calcium to magnesium is about 2:1 the calciums high EC means it has a lot of control over the amount of other nutrients that are available. 

It is easy to experiment and see that increasing the ratio of calcium lowers uptake and lowering the ratio increases uptake when feeding low ppm nutrients. Kinda mind boggling though. With a captured drain to waste nutrient system allowing tds measurement you would find something like input TDS 600 ppm (with high calcium), drain at 450 ppm. 650 ppm input (low calcium), drain at 350 ppm. That means not only did the plants take up a higher ppm of nutrients but the percentage was also higher in nutrients other than calcium. To gain by this you have to be able to bring your self to almost daily read a nutrient deficiency and antagonist chart though.

I just checked out an add for FloraNova grow and it is 1.75 to 1 to 2.5. So it is swinging closer to 3:1:2 than the original Micro and grow mixed to 3.5:0.5:3.5. The FloraNovaBloom is 4:8:7, and there old Micro and bloom was 2.5:2.5:2.5. Sure seems strange that they only added humic and fulvic acids made from lenoraddite coal but now list the products as organic. I just in the last day or so added humus to the nutrient thread. For those curious, leonardite coal is the brown coal often found mixed in with soft black lignite coal. Some say it is almost coal and almost peat moss. They dissolve the coal with potassium hydroxide, they then add a little phosphoric acid. This form s mushy mass (humic substance) and fulvic acids (the solution). If the just want the humic acid, they pour off the fulvic acid and add water. The water contains humic acids. Usually most manufacturers use/combine the fulvic and humic acids and just call it humus. The new Fad.

For what it is worth for the set ups I use I run formulations of veg 3.26, 1, 3.55 and Bloom of 2.81, 1, 4.4 I am running closer to 3:1:4 rather than 3:1:2. My use of higher potassium is due to the use of tight SOG grows with growing temps around 88 to 92 degrees, very high transpiration due to low ppm nutrients and dehumidification down to around 35 to 40 during veg and 25 to 30 during budding, and lots of CO2. 

The general horticultural description of potash as a nutrient: Potassium is a key activator of many enzymes, especially those involved with carbohydrate metabolism. Potassium is also responsible for the control of ion movement through membranes and water status of stomatal apertures. Potassium therefore has a role in controlling plant transpiration and turgor. It is generally associated with plant 'quality' and is necessary for successful initiation of flower buds. As a result the levels of potassium in nutrient solutions are increased as plants enter a 'reproductive' phase, and as crops grow into lower light levels, in order to maintain nutrient balance in solution. 


So is the 3:1:2 ratio perfect. No it just seems to be one of the better choices of those nutrient formulas that are available for those who are growing at more common temperatures and humidities. Would added potassium make the formulation better. If you growing parameters are above average, then yes increasing the potash ppm would likely be helpful. If not you will very likely just be adding potassium hydroxide every day anyway so you might as well add it initially instead of adding so much every day by using pH up during budding.


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## tree farmer (Jan 30, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The closet to a MJ plant is the "hemp" plants grown through out the U.S.. during WW II and just after that time. They found that the plants grow best when fertilized as if they were tobacco, corn silage or fodder when field grown and as foliage plants when green house grown. One does have to consider all the early research geared mainly around growing plant in the vegetative state until the plants started diverting its energy into reproduction. Then the testing went into importing ruderalis and hash strains so as to shorten and bush out the plants as the combines could not handle the ntaural sativa plants which were to tall. It wasn't until the 60's that much research was geared towards improving its possible medicinal qualities.
> 
> Consider Green peppers or chiles are 3:1:3, fodder is 3:1:3, spinach is 3:1:4, herbs are 2:1:1.5 while tomatoes are 4:1:5 and very high in calcium. The hydroponic grows in the 50's and 60's showed that MJ responded best to the simple 3:1:2 ratios used for green house foliage type plants. Even AN, low and be hold, who say they are at the forefront of the MJ nutrient field are now putting out Sensi formulas that are nearing the old traditional 3:1:2 formulas of old. Why do I use a near 3:1:2 ratio etc, because over the years I have found it to work the best and have mixed and sold it to dozens of large growers who also swear by it. I also know many commercial growers who mix their own fertilizers and in general they always seem to return to a formula near the standard old 3:1:2 ratio. Recently (the last year or a bit more) has brought about better nutrient delivery systems and therefore allowing increases in the other parameters meaning a k higher potash than from the 3:1:2 ratio.
> 
> ...


fatman
these are the listed NPK ratios for high pressure aero plants from the supposed leaders in high pressure aero systems. tomatoes 4-18-38, peppers and herbs 11-11-40, lettece 8-15-36, strawberries 8-12-32 and universal formula 10-8-32.

now unless i dont know how to interpet these values (which is certainly possible)or HP aero uses different values than regular hydro. these are not the values you have listed for the same plants ,tomatoes 4.1.5, peppers 3.1.3, lettuce 3.1.4, would not the ratios for these according to the NPK values listed for the HP plants be tomatoes .2,1,2.1, peppers 1,1,3.6, lettuce .53 ,1,2.4. show me what im not getting. what are the ratios for the NPK values listed (HP plant formulations)if what i have are not the correct numbers. i would like to get this figured out. thank you


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## fatman7574 (Jan 30, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> fatman
> these are the listed NPK ratios for high pressure aero plants from the supposed leaders in high pressure aero systems. tomatoes 4-18-38, peppers and herbs 11-11-40, lettece 8-15-36, strawberries 8-12-32 and universal formula 10-8-32.
> 
> now unless i dont know how to interpet these values (which is certainly possible)or HP aero uses different values than regular hydro. these are not the values you have listed for the same plants ,tomatoes 4.1.5, peppers 3.1.3, lettuce 3.1.4, would not the ratios for these according to the NPK values listed for the HP plants be tomatoes .2,1,2.1, peppers 1,1,3.6, lettuce .53 ,1,2.4. show me what im not getting. what are the ratios for the NPK values listed (HP plant formulations)if what i have are not the correct numbers. i would like to get this figured out. thank you


Quey 10 different sites and you would likely get ten different answers. 

I have seen the "liquid Mineral Nutrient" formulation as sold on the Agrihouse Commercial site. http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/category.asp?catid=19 I am not aware that they are the "leaders in high pressure aero systems." Perhaps you meant leading retailers. Saying that they are the leaders in high pressure aero systems is some what a kin to saying something absurd like AN is the leader in nutrient formulations.


First off you need to look at ratio's not the guranteed analysis. So consider the middle number as a 1. Tomatoes 0.22, 1, 2.11 That would be a fine formy ulation once t you have gotten enough vegative growth that you have switched to a fruiting formula, It wi ould be absurdly low in nitrogen during the seedling and vegetative state. Peppers 1:1:4.4 is also a fruiting formula. Using it early would mean a never ending battle with a daily increase of pH and required a high EC so as to provide adquate nitrogen. This formula would mean until the plants reached the age wherby they were tall enough to start encouraging flowering and fruit growth you would be throwing away large amounts of phosphorud and huge amounts of potash. No use in going on. All the formulations are fri uit biased. Basically they are Bloom formula for their respective products. All asume dwarfing intentional dwarfing/minaturization of the entire plants except the fruit, hence the high phosphorus. While if you are searching to grow nothing but SOG's they are the area in which you might try, they are not going to ever be able to suplly the nutruient needs of a mj tree. The formualtions are geared toward trying to produce chemicaly induced lollipopped plants essentially. They would be formulas that in the mj growing operations would be used if you are going straight from cloning to a 12/12 cycle for budding. The lettuce formula seems a bit absurd though. I know of a lot of lettuce formula around 6:1:4 I have not seen a 1:2:4 lettuce before. Lettuce is not a fruit setting plant, but an almost fodder/foliage type plant.


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## tree farmer (Jan 30, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Quey 10 different sites and you would likely get ten different answers.
> 
> I have seen the "liquid Mineral Nutrient" formulation as sold on the Agrihouse Commercial site. http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/category.asp?catid=19 I am not aware that they are the "leaders in high pressure aero systems." Perhaps you meant leading retailers. Saying that they are the leaders in high pressure aero systems is some what a kin to saying something absurd like AN is the leader in nutrient formulations.
> 
> ...


ohh! so your saying the 3.1.2 ratio is best for vegging. i wonder if HP aero formulations are somewhat different. looking thru thier site on HP nutient products they dont seem to have any formulas for the veg state. i wish i had some other info besides thier site for HP aero. evrything does seem low in nitrogen even the lettuce ratios. maybe they have found lower nitrogen levels to work better with HP. i really dont know. ill be using higher nitrogen levels and i guess ill see what happens. thanks for your input.


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## HDB (Jan 30, 2010)

I have been using lucas sys myself, I dont have any fancy meters, just a nice ph meter. In laymens terms, if one has a couple gallons of micro and bloom stocked, how many ml's per gallon should one use of both for veg and flower. And what if anything would be needed to compensate any shortcomings. Im not a newbie, but I have been misinformed more than once. Just want the best advice for what I have to work with. After these nutes are all gone, what would you recommend a bubbleponic/aero user use?


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## fatman7574 (Jan 31, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> ohh! so your saying the 3.1.2 ratio is best for vegging. i wonder if HP aero formulations are somewhat different. looking thru thier site on HP nutient products they dont seem to have any formulas for the veg state. i wish i had some other info besides thier site for HP aero. evrything does seem low in nitrogen even the lettuce ratios. maybe they have found lower nitrogen levels to work better with HP. i really dont know. ill be using higher nitrogen levels and i guess ill see what happens. thanks for your input.


3:1:2 is a general formula that if fruit set is to be emphasized behond normal then potash is added. The high pressure ans atomized systems are fruiting biased system, naturally even with 3:1:2 nutrients or low nitrogen formulas. Lowering the nitrogen would even push the pendulum more towards fruiting biase. The commercial green house industry is pushing the envelope with high pressure aero and atomized in the foliage to fruit ratio. While that may very well be possible but to a lesser extent with MJ during the budding cycle I very highly doubt the low nitrogen formula at re ging to work as well in plants where your trying to obtain height and lush veg growth. I have even rea many aero articles that repetaedlyatedly say that the phosphate and potash levels do not matter with aero when it comes to putting on large root growth and heavy top growth. Go figure.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 31, 2010)

HDB said:


> I have been using lucas sys myself, I dont have any fancy meters, just a nice ph meter. In laymens terms, if one has a couple gallons of micro and bloom stocked, how many ml's per gallon should one use of both for veg and flower. And what if anything would be needed to compensate any shortcomings. Im not a newbie, but I have been misinformed more than once. Just want the best advice for what I have to work with. After these nutes are all gone, what would you recommend a bubbleponic/aero user use?


IMHO If you are growing with a recirculated nutrient in a small reservoir I recommend that at least once daily you replenish water with RO water to the initial level and pH balance. Dump the reservoir every two to three days, without adding nutrients in between changes. If using a medium sized reservoir then change out every three to five days. A large reservoir every 5 to 7 days. Only use about 10 ml of Florabloom and 5 ml of Floramicro per gallon. Without a conductivity meter I do not recommnd partila nutrient repemishment. Even with the use of a conductivity meter I would not suggest that a person go beyond double the above recomendations for time periods before nutrient dumps and changes. If a person can not afford the standard good husbandry method of changing out nutrients they either need to smoke less, change nutrient brands or mix their own nutrients not feed the plants an unknown soup of salts and minerals.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 31, 2010)

So, with the Lucas formula being merely adequate I have a question/request Fatman. 

If you had no choice of fertilizers other than General Hydroponics three part, what ratio of grow, micro and bloom would you use for MJ in the flowering phase? Assuming you weren't doing a sea of green setup (vegging for 2-3 weeks in, say, an ebb and flow.) 

Thanks

*Oh, and one more question on edit: What additives would be necessary on your suggestion. RE a calcium magnesium supplement, etc.


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## fatman7574 (Jan 31, 2010)

*There are two other better choices. *

*2 Parts Micro and 1 Part Bloom*

*ppm my weight mg/L*
Nitrogen 333
Phosphorus 166
Potassium 200
Magnesium 50
Calcium 429 
Sulfur 66
Iron 6.67
Manganese 3.33
Boron 3.33
Zinc 2.00
Copper .67
Molybdenum .05

29.7 Ounces Fertilizer Salts and Minerals
*Ounces*
*Part A*
Calcium Nitrate 28.4
Iron Chelate .90
*Part B*
MonoPotassium Phosphate 10.5
Magnesium Sulfate 6.7
Manganese Sulfate .179
Boric Acid / Solubor .245
Zinc Sulfate 1.17
Copper Sulfate .039
Ammonium Molybdate .001
Volume of Stock Solutions 100 gallons
*Dilution Rate* 1
*EC* 2.9 
*TDS* 3562 by weight mg/L
*pH* 5.7
*TDS *2079 mg/L with 070 conversion


*1 Part Grow, 1 Part Bloom and 1 Part Micro*
*ppm by salt weights mg/L*
Nitrogen 233
Phosphorus 200
Potassium 367
Magnesium 67
Calcium 246
Sulfur 89
Iron 3.33
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.00
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03

26.7 Ounces Salts and Minerals 
*Ounces*
*Part A*
Calcium Nitrate 16.3
Potassium Nitrate 2.2
Iron Chelate .4
*Part B*
Potassium Nitrate 2.2
MonoPotassium Phosphate 12.6
Magnesium Sulfate 9.0
Manganese Sulfate.090
Boric Acid / Solubor.123
Zinc Sulfate.058
Copper Sulfate .020
Ammonium Molybdate .001

*Volume of Stock Solutions* 1 gallon
*Dilution Rate* 100
*pH* 5.9
*Total Salt mass to TDS* 3048 mg/liter
*EC* 2.97
*TDS* 2079 by 0.70 conversion reading

If using standard hydropnic systems such as DWC, NTF, Bubbleponic I would use the 1 Part each mix if I was going to run long intervals between reservoir changes. However, the mix of 2 parts micro and 1 part Bloom is a better ratio mix except for the large concentration of calcium. This large amount of calcium could mean doing frequent reservoir changes and no addition of nutrients between changes, just RO water top offs and pH adjustments. Better results but more labor and possibly more costs. If you are not one for running high EC the costs will be about the same. Personally I like drain to waste, but in general it takes a bit of experience to take the jump to drain to waste. It is a matter of trying to stay between providing too little and wasting to much to drain. Takes a bit of time to reach the point of being willing to take those risks. A lot of it comes from the realization that you can prepare better formulas for drain to waste and not worry about buffering and inbalances than you can with recirculation stystems where everything is always changing and seldomly balanced beyond a few hours after mixing.


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## tree farmer (Feb 1, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> *There are two other better choices. *
> 
> *2 Parts Micro and 1 Part Bloom*
> 
> ...


good post fatman.

if doing dtw and using the 2micro one bloom do you think the extra calcium and higher other micros would cause any antagonizing in my HP system. you probably already posted it somewhere but what ppm for cal you looking for.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 1, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> good post fatman.
> 
> if doing dtw and using the 2micro one bloom do you think the extra calcium and higher other micros would cause any antagonizing in my HP system. you probably already posted it somewhere but what ppm for cal you looking for.


First lets say there may occasionally be problems at GH. I have sitting in front of me recent analysis on GH nutrient formulas from three different states and there are differences in all of them. I have run at home and at the university many analysis on GH nutrients over the last few years and nearly always found differences in all nutrients concentrations but the N, P, K and Ca levels. For example I have state run test and tests done in my home and at the University that show FloraBloom with no magnesium. I have a huge numbers of grossly varying micron nutrient tests. Most tests show no zinc, copper or Boron. I have some that show over 80 times the acceptable maximum level of Zinc. I have both state and University tests of FloraMicro with Molybdenum level at 200 times the recommended maximum levels. Are AN tests results any better. NO. They are quite often even worse. It is really strange that the manufacturers that seem to have the most problems with inconsistencies are those who mainly supply MJ growers.

Back to your question: Not with drain to waste. You would get an EC back likely just a little lower than the calcium magnesium ppm input. With a low EC in with the HP aero you might even totally strip the other macro nutrients and need to start with a little higher EC. If I remember right you had about 35% of your EC left in your drain water. The trace nutrients are still within normal guidelines. As for a simple doubling of trace nutrients. Luckily most trace elements problems are deficiency problems not toxicity problems. The exception is copper. But GH analysis most often shows an absence of copper. With drain to waste though there would be no accumulative effect. The typical signs of copper toxic reaction is wilted and distorted leaves. Poly-Bio-Marine Inc. the manufacturer of a Poly-filter that is made for removing copper from aquarium water. It turns green as it removes the copper. It absorbs phosphate and ammonia also but to a lesser extent.


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## Old Fat Dude (Feb 24, 2010)

I've been following your posts and hope you will give me some advise ...

In a DWC system using GN's FloraNova Grow/Bloom, temps 76-82, 400HPS,and humidity 45-57%

I keep my pH between 5.5-6.5 usually hovering around 5.8, not usually changing much between reservoir changes every 2 or 3 weeks .

I was keeping my TDS around 1200ppm,but kept experiencing nutrient damage . 
I now keep it around 900ppm. 

I use hydroton as my medium and wonder if there is any Cation Exchange Capacity.

Q#1, after reading in other threads ,I wonder if I should mix 1part FNGrow and 3 parts FNBloom together as my blooming formula , to keep my nitrogen levels up to keep my older leaves healthy ?

Q#2, My water analysis .....
TDS 470 mg/L
Hardness as CaCo3 270 mg/L
Chloride 77mg/L
Chlorine 4.6 mg/L
Cu .00065 mg/L
Fe 0.02 mg/L
Mn .0024 mg/L
Na 54 mg/L
Sulfate 190 mg/L
Zn 0.01 mg/L
pH 7.69

How much of this water can I use in my mix with RO water ...
I'm thinking 25% would be safe .

Q#3 If I change to Dyna-Gro Foliage-Pro will I have water or pH issues that I don't have now?

Thanks Fatman I'm looking into creating my own nutrient mix ,just not there yet .


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## fatman7574 (Feb 24, 2010)

Old Fat Dude said:


> I've been following your posts and hope you will give me some advise ...
> 
> In a DWC system using GN's FloraNova Grow/Bloom, temps 76-82, 400HPS,and humidity 45-57%
> 
> ...


IMHO I would suggest instead of using tap water or mixing Grow and Bloom that you use calcium nitrae to boost your nitrate (nitrogen) (it is one of the cheaper fertilizers at $30 for a 50 pound bag retail. Use some Magnesiunm sulfate to incraes your magnesium level if you choose.

As for the Dyna-Grow. Consider that it is principally designed for out door use and for indoor use with potting soils. Will it work for indoor hydro? Yes, but under some conditions its pH issues due to some growing conditions might not make any monet savings worth while. If you are considering Dyna-grow for indoor hydro for any reason other than to save money I would not recomend its use.

So the answers depends on your individual grow room.


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## Old Fat Dude (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks Fatman, I added to your reputation . 

How does this affect pH ... if hydroton is used repeatedly 

Quote Fatman "Experiments have shown that after 4 weeks in a nutrient solution, the Hydroton absorbs 12-15% calcium cations (Ca++) and a proportional amount of potassium cations (K+). It takes about 4 weeks in pure water to wash out the Ca ++ and a lot longer to flush out the K+."


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## fatman7574 (Feb 24, 2010)

Old Fat Dude said:


> Thanks Fatman, I added to your reputation .
> 
> How does this affect pH ... if hydroton is used repeatedly
> 
> Quote Fatman "Experiments have shown that after 4 weeks in a nutrient solution, the Hydroton absorbs 12-15% calcium cations (Ca++) and a proportional amount of potassium cations (K+). It takes about 4 weeks in pure water to wash out the Ca ++ and a lot longer to flush out the K+."


It will slightly increase the pH as the Ca2+ and P+ is adsorbed by the new pellets. However once the pellets have adsorbed as much as they can there will be no more effect on the pH unless you soak the pelles to remove some of the adsorbed Ca++ or K+ ions. The adsorption of the ions is based upon their Hydrated Radius and there concentration. lower concentration ions th end to be adsorded lees even if they have a larger radius just because tey are not as likely to come closed enough to the adsorption site to be attracted. 

The ions typically involved in Hydro are in order of size are NH4+ (2.6A), K+ (3A), CA++(6A), and Mg++ (8A). The numbers that are smallest would, if all were at the same concentration, be absorbed first. But due to concentraion differences that is not the case as Magnesium and Ammonium are typically at lower concentration then Pottasium and Calcium.


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## sherriberry (Feb 24, 2010)

dude... how are you not a millionaire

youre one of the smartest dudes on this forum

you must be really ugly like me


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## fatman7574 (Feb 25, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> dude... how are you not a millionaire
> 
> youre one of the smartest dudes on this forum
> 
> you must be really ugly like me


I no longer need to work for a living I teach because I like to. Howver, three divorces and paying to put three children through a combined total of 22 years of college has kept me from ever being rich. I am now even putting four grand children through college. I figure that is better than a larger inheritance. Seems my paying for it is a better incentive to them that having their parents pay for it. I pay their school fees, books and rent.


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## bran1981 (Feb 25, 2010)

So if hydrotons are a poor medium, than what would you consider the best medium to use in ponics?


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## fatman7574 (Feb 25, 2010)

bran1981 said:


> So if hydrotons are a poor medium, than what would you consider the best medium to use in ponics?


That is pretty much a loaded question that is bound to cause a ruckus. Some growers they say an inert media simply mean that any medium that is not organic is and therefore generally mean the following medias are nonorganic and therefore inert.

Water
Moss
Saw dust 
vermiculite 
Rockwool
lava rock
pop clay or HEC 
perlite
Gravel
marbles/bio balls/jacks/shredded plastic/rubber mulch
Air
Each of these *growing mediums* has both good and bad points. 
Moss is for amateur growers because it is the most forgiving. 
*Rockwool* is mainly for graduated growers since it is the most temperamental. 
Pop clay or HEC is for advanced growers and needs nutrient sprinklers or drips, or better yet flood and drain..
*Lava rock* is not forgiving and can contain toxic minerals from its volcanic origin. It has sharp edges that are not kind to the roots. Gravel is used instead. 
*Hydroton we already discussed.*
*Basically the mediums I would recommend in order from worse choice to best are in the list above. Worse at the top and best at the bottom. IMHO an inert hydroponic medium should have a zero CEC, be non absorbent, non adsorbent, have no nutritional valve, have no buffering capacity, be nonbacteria friendly, easily disinfectable and allow for plenty of oxygen in the gaseous form. The only medium that fits all those requirements for a good medium is air. The only physical mediums that come close that will also support a plant physically and are inert mediums as long as they are not porous are some *marbles/bio balls/jacks/shredded plastic/rubber mulch


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## potpimp (Feb 25, 2010)

I ran across something similar a few months back and when I added it up it was like 20 cents a gallon for the stuff we pay $50 a gallon for. I tried getting some of the ingredients and never got an answer on some of them so I gave up.


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## Old Fat Dude (Feb 25, 2010)

Why is water the worst growing medium ?


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## fatman7574 (Feb 25, 2010)

Old Fat Dude said:


> Why is water the worst growing medium ?


It causes the most difficulties of nearly all the medias. It is not even hydroponic media. It is aqua culture. In reality the only good nutrient method for real hydroponics is drain to waste. It is not newbie friendly though as it requires the greatest knowledge about nutrient formulation and nutrient up take unless you can afford to throw away a lot of fertilizer. Each run of nutrients through a hydro system strips nutrients and disrupts the ion charge balance, with your roots actually in the water your constantly adding organics to the water way above and beyond that added by any other methods. You are basically creating a soup of organic wastes and bacteria. Your using up buffers just as soon as they are created. You are constantly having to deal with temperature issues above and beyond the need to do so in any other type of system. You can not use Chlorine or H2O2 effectively with a aqua culture system meaning your dependent on organic sullpements so as to have natural bacteria and enzymes. Soo basically u youtr ending up with a mix of organic and inorganic. Pretty much a step abckward unless you like having a waste water treatment system fora nutrient reservoir. You have greater issues with a too high humidities and therefore reduced transpiration. The list even goes on and on.


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## sherriberry (Feb 26, 2010)

alright fatman, so where do i go to buy this stuff... these ingredients? Is there a way to not have to buy it in bulk but rather in small enough quantities to grow 20 plants through a single grow?

i want to get my feet wet with this stuff, but dont know where to start?


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## fatman7574 (Feb 26, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> alright fatman, so where do i go to buy this stuff... these ingredients? Is there a way to not have to buy it in bulk but rather in small enough quantities to grow 20 plants through a single grow?
> 
> i want to get my feet wet with this stuff, but dont know where to start?


That depends where you are located.

A simple place to buy them on line if your in the Midwest or the North East is *Crop King*. It sells retail in pounds and 5 pound quantities except the Calcium Nitrate which is very cheap so only sold in 50 pound bags. The South East (Florida) area should have plenty of hydro and green house suppliers as should California and the South West. Both of which are heavy into hydro, therefore having many hydro and greenhouse suppliers.

Crop King: http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=264&zenid=a4eb036a353fc794740bdb5378a85a2b


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## Mcgician (Feb 26, 2010)

I really hate to sound like a cheerleader again fatman, but damn this thread is chock full of information anyone with a conscious eye for detail would be sorely mistaken for having skipped over. Thanks once again for taking the time to educate many of us, and best of luck to you and your crops!


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## potpimp (Feb 26, 2010)

Mcgician said:


> I really hate to sound like a cheerleader again fatman, but damn this thread is chock full of information anyone with a conscious eye for detail would be sorely mistaken for having skipped over. Thanks once again for taking the time to educate many of us, and best of luck to you and your crops!


Man I am totally there with you on that. I just read the whole thing from the beginning. Fatman is not just throwing out something he found online; he is sharing his *knowledge*, which is obviously enormous. 

I was suckered into buying about $500 worth of the AN garbage, having watched the Nutrient Challenge video. I was doing both hydro (NTF) and a soil grow in the same grow room and had better results with the soil grow than the hydro using the AN nutes. Even though I took chemistry in college (4.0), I did not like being forced into being a chemist when mixing up the AN junk. I got the feeling all along that there was a lot of smoke and mirrors behind pipetting nutes, can't mix this with that, add this one first then that then this one, etc. It took me a couple of hours a week and made my place smell really strong - not from the pot but from the nutes. 

I switched to a simple line (Ionic) and got even better results with it. I'm not using Dutch Master and am having good results.

I don't know about the rest of you guys but Fatman really deserves to feel the love; I can't imagine how much it would have cost us to hire this propeller head to do private consulting!! None of us could afford him, LOL. If you have not done so, add to his reputation if you have benefited from this thread.


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## bran1981 (Feb 26, 2010)

I have never heard of using rubber mulch before. That stuff wouldn't cause any issues with the ferts. There isn't anything in the rubber that would leech out? As with the gravel, would the small gravel people use in there fish tanks work good?


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## RyanTheRhino (Feb 26, 2010)

You know I never thought to make my own nutes,

Anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry can do it, all u need to know is "molarity" found in the "stoichiometry" section of chem to make sure u have the solution to the right concentration.

May I ask where u found the chemicals? I have never been able to find a chemistry store.

muhahaha.. The things I would do with a little 10 M HCl or H2SO4.....

Acids are amazing 


Oh yea and guys how did you think the pioneers of hydroponics got ferts....??? There were no stores to go to only chemicals


And a hint of advice 
You have to mix the chemicals in a specific order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

say you mix agent "A" +agent "C" you would get product="AC"

Now if the bonds between "AC" are greater than "A" to "B" the mixture will remain "AC +B" floating around

This will lock out the A and C chemicals

Because

If A had a "+" charge and C had a "2-" charge the product would be neutral "A2C" with no charge

So if u wanted all the agents in there to bond together

ADD
A+ to B+ = A+, B+ (some of them will bond due to other forces but that bond wont be stronger than the (+/-) attraction when u add C)


THEN add, (A+, B+) to (C 2- ) to = 2CAB


You have to think about this when you add any more chemicals

You have to find out if chemical "D" will bond with compound "CAB" or will u need to add it at a different time 


That my friend is why chemists get paid a lot of money

if u have the background to check all of these chemicals before mixing go ahead and make yourself some cheap just as good as the manufactures ferts, but if not I would not recommend it without looking up "stoichiometry" first.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 26, 2010)

RyanTheRhino said:


> You know I never thought to make my own nutes,
> 
> Anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry can do it, all u need to know is "molarity" found in the "stoichiometry" section of chem to make sure u have the solution to the right concentration.
> 
> ...


You can buy some pretty good fertilizer formulation soft ware now. Makes it real easy to duplicate retail formulations such as GH or AN etc. Then you just make the changes you wish to betterdajust for your growing system and the specif strains and the software spits out the formulas in a two part formula. Theywill even warn you if precipitaes will likely form or if you are above or below normal recommened levels. Or you can just enter in the ppm's you desire or the analysis pecentages. They are starting to become pretty reasonable. Starting at about $150 and running up to abot $2500. 


I have 5 different commercial software packages as I was sent test versions before they were put on the market. One of the davantages to being a Professor, lotts of free books and software. I also have some designed by grad students and doctoral candidates. 

I seldom calculate formulas with pencil and paper any more unless making formulaswith several differing nitrogen sources or buffers normally used in biology labs. The software packages do have to what they will include in formulations or how many sources of the same branch of nutrients. The nicer ones even allow you to enter the purchase cost of all raw materials and will formulate at the cheapset cost based on you raw material costs.


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## RyanTheRhino (Feb 26, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Depends on waht your base fertilizer is. Ideally you want a 3:1:2 ratio. Lucas is not an ideal ratio. It is just a simple seasy to mix formulation to use. It does nor even work as well as using a mixture of Grow and Micro during veg and Micro and Bloom during budding, or even as well as some other even cheaper fertilizers. It is simply a fair working FAD fertilizer blend that an average hobby grower came up with a few years ago. Of the retail fertilizers out there I think at this time the best bang for your bucks comes from *Dyna-Gro Foliage-Pro*.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/295437-methodical-scientific-approach-nutrients-nutrient.html


 i use Dyna-Gro because im lazy.. works good enough for me.. and no mixing


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## RyanTheRhino (Feb 26, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> You can buy some pretty good fertilizer formulation soft ware now. Makes it real easy to duplicate retail formulations such as GH or AN etc. Then you just make the changes you wish to betterdajust for your growing system and the specif strains and the software spits out the formulas in a two part formula. Theywill even warn you if precipitaes will likely form or if you are above or below normal recommened levels. Or you can just enter in the ppm's you desire or the analysis pecentages. They are starting to become pretty reasonable. Starting at about $150 and running up to abot $2500.
> 
> 
> I have 5 different commercial software packages as I was sent test versions before they were put on the market. One of the davantages to being a Professor, lotts of free books and software. I also have some designed by grad students and doctoral candidates.
> ...


Nice a Professor u do a lot of research or do u just teach? I myself am a Mechanical engineering grad-student w/a minor in chem hoping to get my masters.

I asked if I could help research in my engineering department. They are trying to create a solar powered propulsion system for close space travel (close is relative to our solar system)

It is powered by creating a beam of photons and bending the light beam with a magnet to a receiver that collects the photons and reuses the energy as efficient as possible. By bending the flow of electrons it creates a continuous force pushing in the opposite direction of the electrons displacement creating continuous acceleration.

On earth is dose nothing but bend light but in space our theory believes it will get the craft going pretty well because of the vacuum.


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## Mcgician (Feb 26, 2010)

RyanTheRhino said:


> I asked if I could help research in my engineering department. They are trying to create a solar powered propulsion system for close space travel (close is relative to our solar system)
> 
> It is powered by creating a beam of photons and bending the light beam with a magnet to a receiver that collects the photons and reuses the energy as efficient as possible. By bending the flow of electrons it creates a continuous force pushing in the opposite direction of the electrons displacement creating continuous acceleration.
> 
> On earth is dose nothing but bend light but in space our theory believes it will get the craft going pretty well because of the vacuum.


Is this one of those "solar sails" you're talking about? Sounds familiar.

And fatman, this should be your new avatar.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 26, 2010)

Na., I like short haired headed women not shave headed men. Luckily no histrry off balding in my family tree.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 26, 2010)

bran1981 said:


> I have never heard of using rubber mulch before. That stuff wouldn't cause any issues with the ferts. There isn't anything in the rubber that would leech out? As with the gravel, would the small gravel people use in there fish tanks work good?


Old tire rubber has been known to leach a few solvent compounds but mainly they leach cemicals picked up from road travel. Mainly Pertroleum products from the asphalt etc. The way to avoid that is to buy the red or brown rubber chunks instead of the black.


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## bran1981 (Feb 26, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Old tire rubber has been known to leach a few solvent compounds but mainly they leach cemicals picked up from road travel. Mainly Pertroleum products from the asphalt etc. The way to avoid that is to buy the red or brown rubber chunks instead of the black.


 What's the difference, isn't it the same thing just dyed?


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## fatman7574 (Feb 26, 2010)

_Hey man. I was hoping you could spare a moment to let me know how much sodium silicate you use in _
_hydroponics? I'm having savage weakness problems and your the only person I've heard of to use it. THANKS!_


I use 0.1mM (millimole). A millimole is 0.001 millimole of pure Sodium Sillicate. That is (122*0.0001) = 0.0122 grams. However,there is no such thing as pure sodium silicate being sold. Most is sold ay 70% or 0.7 mole per liter. That means there is (122*0.7)= 85.4 grams per liter in the typical 70% strength sodium Silicate. 85/0. 0122 = 1000/X so, x= (0.0122*1000)/85 = 0.14 ml per quart of nutrient water. There are 3.79 liters per gallon so (0.14*3.79) = *0.53 ml per gallon that is roughly one teaspoon per each 30 gallons of nutrient water as there are 15 ml to a teaspoon. *

I only would add it when originally mixing up the nutrients, and then just use it as a pH up untill you cahnge your reservoir. Do not use it everytime you add water for top off. It will raise the pH each time you add it. Your adding 12 mg per liter to a new batch of water. That can raise the pH by as much as 1 full pH point. 

As for those wooried an bout sodium levels. 75 ppm is considered the maximum safe level for sodium in hydropinic solutions by many researchers. Adding 0.14 ml per liter means an addition of 5.88 ppm of sodium. Therefore the amount of sodium would be less than 1/12 of the recognized maximum safe level of sodium.

You also need to consider Potassium is a strong antagonist to calcium and magnesium up take. Sodium is not.


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## GrayRoanek (Feb 27, 2010)

Fatman is my IDOL. Thanks for the recipes and the lead to Grow King. But the recipes don't include trace elements necessary for cannabis. Soil growers probably take them for granted but aero needs to include them in their nutes. I found these sites helpful.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112606773/abstract Zinc required for cannabiis production.
http://www.mii.org/periodic/LifeElement.html List of elements required by SOME organisms.

Along with Silica, I also read that Titanium is required for healthy cannabis production. Note that some of these elements are TOXIC and must be introduced in trace amounts, Parts per Billion, PPB.

So, which do you add to your nutes and in what concentration?


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## Mcgician (Feb 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Na., I like short haired headed women not shave headed men. Luckily no histrry off balding in my family tree.


Haha. It's the professor/chemist from the tv show Breaking Bad. You should definitely check it out. It's right up your alley, except for the big difference in product. The new season is coming up soon. Can't friggin' wait!


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## fatman7574 (Feb 27, 2010)

This is what I am using adjusted for easy mixing and very minimal chance of precipitaion in concentrate conainers. It is a bit strong and a batch just over 5 gallons ie 2.5 gallons each of Part A and Part B. It will dilute at 100 to 1, so for a nutrient solution EC of 2.7 (TDS 1729 ppm) it will make just over 500 gallons. At a more reasonable EC say 1.35 for a TDS of approximately 865 ppm it will mix up to over 1000 gallons. Total cost of fertilzers and metal salts. About $15, therefore 3 dollars per gallon.


So if used at a TDS of 865 ppm it would cost 10 cents per day with a 50 gallon reservoir dumped and refilled once per week. 


fatman's Bloom Formula (ratio 3.2 : 1 : 3.5)


ppm

Nitrogen 240
Phosphorus 74
Potassium 261
Magnesium 84
Calcium 235
Sulfur 111
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00

Ounces 
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 82.2
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
Iron Chelate 7.14

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013


Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.47
TDS 1729
pH 5.8


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## YouGrowBoy (Feb 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> This is what I am using adjusted for easy mixing and very minimal chance of precipitaion in concentrate conainers. It is a bit strong and a batch just over 5 gallons ie 2.5 gallons each of Part A and Part B. It will dilute at 100 to 1, so for a nutrient solution EC of 2.7 (TDS 1729 ppm) it will make just over 500 gallons. At a more reasonable EC say 1.35 for a TDS of approximately 865 ppm it will mix up to over 1000 gallons. Total cost of fertilzers and metal salts. About $15, therefore 3 dollars per gallon.
> 
> 
> So if used at a TDS of 865 ppm it would cost 10 cents per day with a 50 gallon reservoir dumped and refilled once per week.
> ...


After reading and re-reading numerous threads, I'm final getting a handle on this. 

You call it Fatmans bloom formula. Generally speaking, I was under the impression a decent grow formula is 3:1:2 (close to your bloom numbers) and bloom is closer 1:4:2. I know these are not exact numbers but just general guidelines.

Is the formula above used exclusively throughout the entire grow without any changes or additives?

Also please let me know if I have this correct.

To make Part A I add

 82.2oz (5.13lbs) Calcium Nitrate 
 15.6oz (.98lb) Potassium Nitrate 
 7.14oz (.45lb) Iron Chelate 
to 2.5gl RO water?

That's nearly 7lbs of dry chemical to 2.5 gallons of water for part A, and Part B gets about 6.5lbs of chemical to 2.5 gallons of water. Is this correct? 

Unless these chemicals come in liquid and not dry it seems like it might be difficult to mix. I've never done this before so I'm trying to learn proper mixing technique as well.

Also, if using RO water is any additional cal-mag needed? It doesn't seem so with the amount of Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate already in the mix.

YGB


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## Gixxerboy (Feb 27, 2010)

bran1981 said:


> As with the gravel, would the small gravel people use in there fish tanks work good?


Yes I used some in a pinch one time but one thing to note about fish tank gravel is that it is alot heavier than Hydrotone by comparsion in the same size pot.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 27, 2010)

Gixxerboy said:


> Yes I used some in a pinch one time but one thing to note about fish tank gravel is that it is alot heavier than Hydrotone by comparsion in the same size pot.


 Avoid the small gravel as it provides to little open pore space for adquate oxygen. ie the sand packs or settles down to much. Some growers do use small particle sized gravel/sand for cloning.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 27, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> After reading and re-reading numerous threads, I'm final getting a handle on this.
> 
> You call it Fatmans bloom formula. Generally speaking, I was under the impression a decent grow formula is 3:1:2 (close to your bloom numbers) and bloom is closer 1:4:2. I know these are not exact numbers but just general guidelines.
> 
> ...


The 3:1:2 is a general formulation for MJ specific growing. It is not specific to MJ hydro grows or MJ aero grows. The presently supplied formulation is specific to hydro aero grows for predominantly indica and afghani strains. If the predominance runs to more sativa then more calcium and nitrogen is needed. 

Seldom is more phosphorus needed uless you have a lot of pH rises which locks up Phosphorus. However it is supplied my the phosphorus supplied by the phosphoric acid you use to up the pH when it declines. However, if you are using a pH up with both phosphoric acid and nitric acid, such as Dyna-Gro's ph Down formula then the phosphorus level will be slightly low as they use both Nitric and Phosphoric acid to their pH down. However, I do not recommend the Dyna-Gro pH up or pH down or any other retail pH up or pH down formula as they are rediculously priced and they foolishly add buffers to their formulas that do not increase the nutrient buffer levels. The buffers are immediattely used to neutralize the acid or alkalines as soon as added. 

You can not accummulate buffers in a system beyond that allowed by the solutions ionic balance (pH) without changing the pH so at best all you can is restore it to its previous level. You do that as soon as you raise or lower the pH. Essentially they add ineffective/not needed buffers likely just as a marketing gimmick. They get to say, "our products contain buffers." They do not bother to say they are not effective. 

To be honest it is just best to consider that hydroponic neutrients have no buffering capacity as it truly has only a very minute amount of buffering capacity. Each time a buffer is used up it ties up either some potassium or some phosporus. Adjsuting the pH wouth either Pottasium hydroxide or Phosphoric acid restores the amount lost through buffering.

fatman's Veg Formulation

Ratio 3.25 : 1 : 3.54

(The higher Potassium is to raise the EC proportionally so as to adjust nutrient uptakes.)

Nitrogen 267
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 291
Magnesium 93
Calcium 261
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 91.5
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
Iron Chelate 7.14

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 17.4
MonoPotassium Phosphate 27.3
Magnesium Sulfate 66.4
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013

Volume of Stock Solutions
5.3 gallons
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.75
pH 5.8
TDS 1925

The Formulations are at the same EC and pH so that its additions to dilution water are the same amount for either Bloom or Grow. Therefore you can use the same dilutions when switching over g from what you use as a full strenghth Grow EC to yourr matching full strength Bloom at the same EC by using the same Dilution. This means no stress to the plants when switching formulas.

You will need to adjust your pH if adding a supplement like sodium silicate. Sodium siliate will up your pH by about one full point if added at the recomended strength to a new nutrient mix. Adding phosphoric acid will lower the pH back down and supply the added phosphorus some think is needed.

I am presently testing formulations with sodium chloride added so as to decrease the need for so much Potassium. Potassium is a calcium and magnesium antagonist and therefore limit their availability for uptake. Sodium chloride is not an antagonist, but both chloride and sodium is toxic at high levels. With regularly changed reservoirs or drain to waste this would not be an issue, but for those who use very small resrvoirs proportional to plant numbers this would mean both the sodium and chloride would incraese quickly if the reservoir was often topped off with more nutrients between changes.


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## patlpp (Feb 27, 2010)

Great info Fatman as usual. Now I don't want to get this into a AN slug-fest thing but I went out and bought a qt of Sensi A & B because you hate it so much !! You raised my curiosity so much I wanted to experiment with it!! See? Your helping Big Mike in a bizarre way. OK, Your primo veg formula above is almost that of the Sensi A/B. The difference being (.15-0-.7) and throw a little Epsom salt in to boost Mg. It is very comparable in price to the classic LUCAS. In fact, I found it dose for dose equal to GH Lucas. That GH micro is expensive . My question is :what differences are there between the Fatman Veg formula and the AN Sensi grow A/B other than the .7 - K difference? Are you willing to bow down to Fat Mike and say he is basically spot on with his Sensi soup? Again, you are the fucking man but I needs to know.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 28, 2010)

AN slug fest? Bow down to Fat Mikie for coming up with a Veg and Bloom formulas I have started posting in the MJ growing forums for over two years before he started mixing and selling his Sensi Formulas? Not very likely. Especially since "his" formulations cost a great deal more that any manafacturer with any ethics or morals should ever consider charging. Fat Mikie is just a parasite who never comes up with original formulas of his own. He either uses others formulas with a slight alteration at most or simply drags out decades old formulas that have been created by University Researchers at the expense of commercial agricultural growers, agricultural fertilzer manafacturers or federal tax payer dollars. His touted researcher is simply an old retired university researcher who just merely accesses old university research developed formulations and test data and dusts them off and uses that information to mix up products to sell to deep pocket medical and stash MJ growers. Even his supplements are all old hat university research supplements. No MJ specific manafacturer spends the time or money to do any original research when there is an easier cheaper way. Just use some one elses formulation based upon that persons research or simply just drag out old research data on supplements that were considered unecomomical to use on agricultural products due to increased yield of finished product not being able to even cover the cost of the supplements (this does not hold true to a crop that has a huge value such as MJ). Duh.


Consider this scenario: if there are a hundred experienced growers with a broad enough knowledge of nutrient chemistry that formulate and test their MJ specific nutrient formulations that post their formulation data to the internet grow sites, do you think Fat Mikie is not going to take for his own that information that can simply be used free of charge without asking permission or paying to do the same reserach testing. Which is easier, faster and cheaper for Fat MiKie, simply using free reasrch dat or paying some one to do original reasrch at a great experience and a long time period. He needs to make his money off the MJ growers while he can. If and or whem pot is ever decriminalized by the US Feds he will no longer be able to sell his stuff at huge profits as the market will be flooded with MJ specific fertilizers sold by the huge number of US fertilizer manafacturers? Dooh! That is another reason when Mikie gives his pitifully small donations to Norml it matters so liitle as he has no desire for pot to be leaglized or decriminalized as his real profits are because of pot being illegal in the US. It is h just another marketing scam. Anyone who buy's Fat Mikie's crap about him being on the side of the marijuana growing community is very naive. He is not on the side of the grower of medical MJ or small stash growers of MJ. He is only on the side of the commercial growers whose profit is also based on the illegality of pot and pot growing, who also are making huge profits while they can. He and they are both doing their parts to keep the prices of pot as high as possible by making it appear that pot is expensive to grow and that that justifies the high prices for pot and pot specific fertilzers. Hell look at the cost of mj seeds. The suppliers of those seeds are making huge profits. Their profits are so huge they make the profits of commercial mj growers look very pitiful. They do not provide information on their sites so that a medical Mj or stash gower can grow mj cheaper or easier. They also do not want mj legalized. They provide the sites so that they can sell more seeds and make what as much as they can until mj is legalized and the prices of mj seeds drop to the cost of vegetable seeds.

Bow down to Fat Mikie. What a joke. You were just trying to be humorous right?



Or perhaps you just want me to just send my research information to Fat Mikie rather than posting to MJ growing forums free of charge. Apparently you like that Fat Mikie drives a Hummer, Bently, and Mercedes as well as thee fact living in a million dollar plus home because he is raking in the money selling Mj specific fertilizers at huge profits to medical MJ growers and private stash growers. It is very, very unlikely that any large commercial MJ growers use his products or those of Canna, Botanicare or GH. Any non MJ growers who pay the cost for hydro nutrients from MJ specific manafactures are really uneducated in the area of hydroponic nutrients. 

Bow down to a lying ass, whiney parasite that lives off of ripping off MJ growers and by utilizing the research work of others as if it was his own. Wow that is funny.

I also have a Sativa specific formulation and a dominant Indica crossed with Sativa specific formulation, as well as some low temp formulations for specific strains and crosses. I have quite a few specific formulations. Fat Mikie's Sativa formulation is not spot on even for Sativa grown indoors hydroponically, unless you grow and bud slowly, because if you grow and bud quickly with indoor hydro your Sativa will finish with a bunch of mono leaves that have to be manicured off the buds because they are yellowing due to a nitrogen deficiency. His Sativa formulation would be better suited for a Northern California outdoor Sativa grow. Actually though that is even debatable as Northern Califormia out door grows of a Sativa would be better with a fertilizer like Dyna-Gro that contains more ammonium nitrogen.


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## fatman7574 (Feb 28, 2010)

patlpp

Actually most corporations, even defense contractors, are doing good if they make a 110 to 130 percent return on their investments. Milking fat Mikie is likely making at least a 500 to 800 percent return on his investments. The other mj specific nutrient manfacturers have much higher overheads and are making about half the return on their investments as Milking fat Mikie. 

If you choose to go the retail route of the Mj specific manfacturers that is up to you. I am sure your desire to be lazy over powers your any desires to profit more than the mj nutrients suppliers you spend your money on. Even though you are the one taking all the chances buy illegally growing mj and not them. 

I have given you more than adeequate information for you to make your choices. Just realise if you use Mikie's Sensi formulation inside for hydro at high temps you will need to add some Calcium Nitrate during budding to not have yellow on your mono leaves. 

Mono leaves on good Sativa buds as well as Indica or Afghani buds are usually not removed in manicuring but are supposed to be green and covered with resin, not starting to yellow and turn brown at the tips. 

If you do not like my ways of writing or replying to your insults m nor care for my opinons of mj nutrients manafacturers then you can simply not read my replies or post to my thread. Or better yet just put me on yourignore list. There did not appear to be any humor at all in what you wrote about my bowing down to Fat Mikie, nor do I see any humor in my fertilzer formulation being called the FAG formula. I consider that an insult not a show of respect for my my shared knowledge or contributions. I am quite sure even a non heterosexual would also consider the FG formula an insult. 

Obviously you are not at all aware how expensive it is for any contractor to produce equipment for the military. I am quite ware of the costs minvolved. I am quite aware that the reason small contractors do not supply the miltary is because they can not afford to meet all the requirements that the milltary emposes on its suppliers or contractors.

As far as I am concerned you can do your lazy *ss part to buy Fat Mikie another Hummer if you so please. So sweat off my behind.

I do not, will not, and likely never will give any of the mj specific nutrient manafacturers the thumbs up. I do not think well of any of the mj specific nutrient manafcurers that are exploiting mJ growers. Are the mj manafacurers nutrient formulations better for mj growing then general plant formulations? Yes. But is the price increase over general plant fertilizers justifiable? No. Did the manfacturers do anything to justify the additional huge markups. No, as even most of their advertisng is just cheap online advertising.

The Lucas formula is not even his formula. It is simply mixing directions for someone elses formulations that works well enough for some growers. The "Lucas formula" is a pair of GH formualtion not a Lucas formulation. It is not even a mixing direction thay even produces a very good growing nutrient mix. Even Lucas is now finally admitting to that. It is just a simple method of mixing up and replenishing a nutrient reservoirs nutrients for a lazy person such as you who has already stated your laziness. He only came up with the lame mixing part not the replenishing part of his "formulation."


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## bran1981 (Feb 28, 2010)

Hey fatman, some of us are paying attn. so keep on man great props to you.


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## Gixxerboy (Feb 28, 2010)

patlpp said:


> Great info Fatman as usual. Now I don't want to get this into a AN slug-fest thing but I went out and bought a qt of Sensi A & B because you hate it so much !! You raised my curiosity so much I wanted to experiment with it!! See? Your helping Big Mike in a bizarre way. OK, Your primo veg formula above is almost that of the Sensi A/B. The difference being (.15-0-.7) and throw a little Epsom salt in to boost Mg. It is very comparable in price to the classic LUCAS. In fact, I found it dose for dose equal to GH Lucas. That GH micro is expensive . My question is :what differences are there between the Fatman Veg formula and the AN Sensi grow A/B other than the .7 - K difference? Are you willing to bow down to Fat Mike and say he is basically spot on with his Sensi soup? Again, you are the fucking man but I needs to know.


fatman's Veg Formulation

Ratio 3.25 : 1 : 3.54

Sensi Grow Ratio 6.2 : 2.2 : 5.7

I guess im lost patlpp but im not getting the difference you are getting i see 
(2.95 : 1.2 : 2.16) being the difference between the two ratios it is very early but can you wake me up and show me where you see the difference being (.15-0-.7)?


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## patlpp (Feb 28, 2010)

Gixxerboy said:


> fatman's Veg Formulation
> 
> Ratio 3.25 : 1 : 3.54
> 
> ...


Divide by 2


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## YouGrowBoy (Feb 28, 2010)

First Fatman, I know a lot of people thank you and you're probably sick of the puckering but I'm going to anyway. Thank you. I think I can now actually experiment with mixing my own nutes. I'm a cheap bastard that does not want to give the greedy bastards more then they deserve.



fatman7574 said:


> The presently supplied formulation is specific to hydro aero grows for predominantly indica and afghani strains. If the predominance runs to more sativa then more calcium and nitrogen is needed.


How much would you alter these recipes for sativas grown at 75 to 85 degrees indoors with Co2?

Also I compared the two lists of ppm's for your veg and bloom formulas and see Molybdenum .09 is in veg but is excluded from bloom. Is this accurate?



fatman7574 said:


> You will need to adjust your pH if adding a supplement like sodium silicate.


It is my understanding that sodium silicate is beneficial to cell and cell wall development. Is this used only during veg and at what levels is it added?



fatman7574 said:


> I am presently testing formulations with sodium chloride added so as to decrease the need for so much Potassium. Potassium is a calcium and magnesium antagonist and therefore limit their availability for uptake. Sodium chloride is not an antagonist, but both chloride and sodium is toxic at high levels. With regularly changed reservoirs or drain to waste this would not be an issue.


I will be following your posts to see where these experiments lead.

I think I saw in another thread you say all the chemicals can be purchased at local "Feed and Seed" stores. Am I correct here or is there a place on the net you know of for mail delivery of chemicals? This actually scares me a bit, ordering chemicals over the net but when you need it you need it.

YGB


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## patlpp (Feb 28, 2010)

I will re-post for clarity my reply posted subsequent to fatmans timed 02:08. I must have deleted it: 

Wow, I thought you would catch the humor but I guess I caught you at a bad time,perhaps. If you are finished please answer my question: How is Fat Mikes Sensi A/B so inferior to Fatmans Awesome Grow formula , now dubbed the "FAG" formula? I mean technically? A scientist of your high esteem should be impartial and not go off on a fuckin drunkin', Lithium amplified rant. And please don't bring up the fact that you can mix it up for a fraction of the cost. Hell I could raise a cow and get 1000 gallons of milk from it but that would be a total pain in the ass. You see, I don't want to buy 50# bags of chem. As far as Mike raping the doper? Would you like to go into the amount of profit margins from the likes of Collins (GPS), Motorola (Radio), or Bell (Helos) Corp's selling their products to the military in the name of patriotism?? Makes Mike look like a frickin' Saint. 
You post that Lucas sucks so you give Dyno thumbs up (sort of) yet you slam AN because it costs too much, but it is no more expensive than GH and AN has YOUR ratio's. WTF?? Name me a brand where I could walk into a hydro store to pick up, that is closest to your formula, and will work best for hydro in VEG . Would it be SENSI? You yourself said AN is finally getting it with the Sensi formula in another book you posted. Please tell me , I will go out and buy it now because *I respect your **opinion!!* Fuck please read that again ok? If the bottle said nothing but "FAG FORMULA" on it in big red letters for all to see I'd still buy it, that's how much I respect you. 

P.S I have also seen the world and am a crusty old fart as you but have a much different background so please try not to be too condescending.

Why do I read your edited post above now and it carries a somewhat different tone from the first time I read it? If you did not intend to be a wise ass I apologize. 

Now waking up this morning I see that I did , maybe ,take Fatmans response wrong. For that I'm sorry. I will also apologize for the FAG statements.
However, bare in mind that Fatmans historical threads usually end up in flames so as I correspond, I'm like walking on egg shells and I have an extremely sensitive, defensive mindset coming in. 

With that said: Fatman, please explain impartially, weighing all the variables you know, the best product to buy from an average Hydro store that a lazy (or too busy) MMJ/small grower can purchase for an INDOOR ,HYDRO, MJ, INERT MEDIUM,TEMP/HUMIDITY CONTROLLED, VEG grow that produces the best overall yield and takes the least amount of customization? 
You see, you may be about to set a precedence here just as pH and LUCAS have with bloom. Is Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 better overall, even though its not totally designed for hydro, compared to Sensi 2-part ? Maybe GH 2-micro 1 bloom and tolerate the Cal issue? Is there yet another vendor that better fulfills the FATMAN formula? What base nute could we use and than supplement with another off-the-shelf product or products that would best be suited for your Sativa/ dominant indica or temperature tailored soup? Please post those soups by the way if you would. 
Keep in mind that LUCAS is an admittedly compromising formula designed for simplicity and general success. LUCAS is here to stay for bloom but there still is that Holy Grail of a good VEG formula many need. Give us your verdict, we can take it and work from there, I'm sure many people have these same questions. If you would like I can summarize the pros and cons, based on your past observations , of each of the mentioned vendors formulas and than have you elaborate? 
Right now, with all that I have read from you and UB, the closest off-the-shelf veg formula so far to me is AN Sensi. I weighed price, simplicity, availability and volume. Let's hash this out and get really productive here. Thanks


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## fatman7574 (Feb 28, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> First Fatman, I know a lot of people thank you and you're probably sick of the puckering but I'm going to anyway. Thank you. I think I can now actually experiment with mixing my own nutes. I'm a cheap bastard that does not want to give the greedy bastards more then they deserve.
> 
> How much would you alter these recipes for sativas grown at 75 to 85 degrees indoors with Co2?
> 
> ...


Crop King 
http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=264&zenid=8f09de56a73e5c856a32289cbabac00a
sells every thing but the ammonium molybdate. 

I have convinced a chemical supply house to make that available on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/25g-Ammonium-Molybdate-ACS-Grade-Pure_W0QQitemZ280439298699QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b7c1a8b


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## fatman7574 (Feb 28, 2010)

Sensi One salts (not liquid) are by analysis in percentage: 

nitrogen 11
Phosphorus 3.2
Pottasium 11.5

That means a ratio of (N-P-K-C-M-S) at: 3.43 : 1 : 3.59 : 2.5 : 0.52 : 0.69


ie (110/3.2 ) = 3.43, (#.2/3.2) = 1, (11.5/3.2) = 3.59

My veg is: 3.25 : 1 : 3.54 : 3.18 : 1.1 : 1.5. My formula contains higher ratios of calcium and magnesium and sulfur and a low percentage of ammonium nitrogen. The higher sulfur is from using magnesium sulfate as the souce for all the mangnesium contribution. AN is supply part of their magnesium by using magnesium nitrate. This means they are using less calcium nitrate so they have a lower calcium level but about the same nitrogen ratio. This makes little sense other than them being able to say they are not copying another persons formula. It is sorta absurd though as Sativa has huge calcium demands during flowering as they have huge amounts of vegetative growth. The larger amounts of sulphur in my formulation is not of any concern. Typically the sulfur level is not consider excessive unless over 250 ppm.

I have not looked at the Sensi Grow A and B much. However mixed one to one it has a ratio of: 2.5 : 1 : 2.5 : 2.6 : 0.35 : 0 I would use the Sensi One rather than the two part Sensi grow based on those numbers, but I am unaware of what ratio AN recomends for their two part Sensi Grow formulations. I also have not done my own analysis on the Sensi One or Two two part Sensi grow formulations so I do not know their ammonium concentrations and I have neverseem that info posted anywahere. I am assumo ing their ammonium concentrations are all below the standard recomendations of the ammonium nitrogen comprising no more than15% of the total nitrogen. Not some absurd amount like the 30% plus used in Dyna-Gro Foilage-Pro. Milking Fat Mikie is not very good at transparency though when it comes to his formulations.


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## patlpp (Feb 28, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I have not looked at the Sensi Grow A and B much. However mixed one to one it has a ratio of: 2.5 : 1 : 2.5 : 2.6 : 0.35 : 0 I would use the Sensi One rather than the two part Sensi grow based on those numbers, but I am unaware of what ratio AN recomends for their two part Sensi Grow formulations.


Here is a link to the info:

http://www.advancednutrients.com/oregon/oregon_label/SensiGrowPAB.jpg

I tested the concentration and the PPM referenced in the dosage table is a .5 conversion factor.


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## fatman7574 (Mar 1, 2010)

Ugh, scratch the Sensi Grows. They are a much better choice for dirt framing Staiva than inert Hydro as there amitrogrm is over half ammonium and other water soluble nitrogen not nitrate. The only other nitrogen has to be urea. Urea must be converted to ammonium or nitrate before it can be taken up by the plants. The tests that gave the most favorable look at such a urea loaded hydroponic fertilzer is the one posted by dirt Farmer Ben. It showed the conversion of urea to ammonium did not even start for at least 7 days and took over 14 days to be completely converted to ammonium. Then you have a but load of ammonium thhat will caiuse major drops in the nutrient pH daily. Or there is the possibility that you might run a sytem where you never change y out your reservoir and never use chlorine or H2O2 in the resrvoir. In that acse the urea will be fully conceted to ammonium in 21 days and ythen into nitrate in another 3 to five weeks.

I would not consider using the Sensi A and Sensi B formula for anything but an outdoor dirt grow unless I was using it on an indoor grwo where I was using a pH controller to maintain the proper pH.

The below was pulled from another thread whee I tried to discuss with Uncle Ben that a hydro fertilizer for inert media containing urea and fertilizers with a high proportion of ammonium or urea to Nitrate is a bad idea because of the pH issues it would cause: Uncle Ben himself in his arguments posted threads that proved that pH declines would be an issue of such proportions that a pH controller should be used to maintain the consytantly declining pH in therange for optimum nutrient availabilty. 

I am sure that will work fine in most soils but it has nothing to do with the majority of inert soil less grower's needs.

So it takes bacteria to covert NH4 (ammonia) to nitrite and then nitrate. So you use a mixture of nitrogen sources in your soil grows. Ok, that means the Dyna-Gro products are fine for soil, more so than inert media (soil less) hydro and aquaculture. There has been no disagreement about what works in soil. I am concerned more with formulations for inert media hydroponicsand DWC/Bubbleponics as are the majority of MJ growers. 

Urea is not used in those formulations and it is very well known by expereienced inert media soil less hydro growers that levels of ammonium need to be maintained in their nutrients, at levels below those used in most soil nutrient formulations. That should not even be considered arguble. 

So please quit avoiding your blunders and antiquated baseless opinions by talking about what works in soil. The issue is that the high levels of ammonium nitrogen in Dyna-Pro nutrients cause problems in inert (soil free) hydroponc systems. PERIOD. I have no doubt that Flora-Bloom and the other soluble Dyna-Gro formulations work well in soil. I am arguing that they work better with less problems in soil because the ammonical level is not that great an issue with soil grows where dolomitic lime is typically present and where the bacterias need to convert it to nitrite and nitarte are usually very abundant. 

So you do not half to spell it out and add more confusion here is the speal on ammonium in soil applications: 

Ammonium nitrogen (NH4+) carries a positive charge and is adsorbed onto soil particles. In this chemical form, leaching of nitrogen does not occur; however, NH4+ is changed to the NO3- form by bacteria. This process occurs rapidly (beginning within 2 to 3 days) as the soil temperature climbs above 50°F. Complete conversion from NH4+ to NO3- occurs within about a month of application.

This implies that Ammonium nitrogen is a slow release fertilizer in soils not urea. This is another indicator that Dtyna-Gro fertilizer regardless of it contain 12 to 15 elements is essentially DESIGNED FOR SOILS but may be used in hydro if you are qilling to deal with the adverse sise effects of all the ammonium nitrogen. Period. Put that all in your pipe and smke it Ben. Please try to learn from this and not repeat the same ludicrous statements and mistakes and side tracks again.

In regard to bacteria conversion of ammonical nitrogen for use in inert media (soil free) hydroponics consider the ammonical nitrogen is typically very slow to be converted to nitrite then nitrate and usually it takes at least five weeks for the changes to take place. This is due to chemical hydroponic nutrients not having the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter solutions present when initialy mixed from a cocentrate and RO or even tap water if it has been chloronated. (Dyna-Gro even insures those bacteria are not present in their fo nutrients a by adding chlorine to there formulations. Go figure! Another indicator ithey are soil preferential formulations. 

Then for the people who regularly use chlorine or H2O2 the bacteria is never going to be present at large enough levels to make anything but negligible conversions. It also means for those who change their reservoir(s) at least once every two to three or even four weeks the conversion to nitrate is negligible. 

This means when the ammonical nitrogen is taken up by the roots (during low light seedling conditions and during budding) the roots will dump every day a bunch of H+ ions. As nearly no hydroponic formulations supply enough alkalinity (buffers) to handle this amount of H+ (acid) the nutrient pH drops substantially daily. 

It is a simpy fact that 3 pounds of lime to counter the acids from a pound of urea or ammonium nitrogen. Does that give you any idea what will be needed to neutralize the acids in a hydroponic reservoir. Yepper 3 ppm of carbonate alkalinity per each ppm of ammonium nitrogen.


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## YouGrowBoy (Mar 1, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Crop King
> 
> Sativa Indoor High Temp Hydro
> 
> ...


I understand how to add the silicate. Thanks.

I want to insure my safety as well as insure I make proper concentrates.

For each concentrate, when mixing the dry ingredients, is it best to mix all the dry ingredients together 1st then add to RO water or is each individual ingredient added one at a time and mixed throughly? (I do a lot of cooking and sometimes this process matters)

Should I be wearing gloves and a mask when using these chemicals?

Are there any other safety or mixing concerns when working with these chemicals and making concentrates?

YGB

P.S. (for everyone except Fatman unless my math is off) I priced all the ingredients at Crop King and the total including shipping would be about $250 ($110 of that goes to UPS!) for an initial minimum order. this would make an initial batch for 500 gallons mixed at 2.7 EC. If using aero I could probably go about .7 EC and get nearly 2000 gallons of drain to waste solution. That is enough for about 20 small crops. Right now $250 at hydro store price would last about 3 small crops.

Also, Most of the bags would have plenty left over and only a few chemicals would need to be repurchased so the next 2000 gallons would cost even less.

Something to think about for us DIY'ers.

P.P.S. To the guy that want's to buy the milk instead of a cow, remember cow's take a lot more maintenance then bags of chemicals sitteng in a garage. And, instesd of mixing 5 or 6 different prepackaged (expensive) bottles from AN, GH, Canna or others every time you change resevoirs , you can mix 8 (cheap) dry ingredients from Crop King once.


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## fatman7574 (Mar 1, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> I understand how to add the silicate. Thanks.
> 
> I want to insure my safety as well as insure I make proper concentrates.
> 
> ...


It really is all pretty simple. At worst you just do as the nutrient manfacture's commonly do. Copy some other persons formula that works then as you gain more knowledge about how it performs adjust it to perform best for your market or needs. Mixing for your self you can just get more specific to your needs than with the retail nutrients that provide for a broad market. You don't see the retailers marketing things like nutrients for: DWC, low pressure aero, high pressure aero, NTF, bubbleponics, rockwool, yet alone sativa or indica dominant for each type of those grows. Nor do you see those formulas being made for low temperatures versus high temperatures. Or even intense lighting verus non intense lighting like CFC or flourescent.


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## YouGrowBoy (Mar 4, 2010)

I've been e-mailing with Crop King about buying their chemicals for fertilizer. It appears I can buy their Micro Mix of the following micro-nutrients - Manganese, Boron, Copper, Zinc and Molybdinum. One of their employees wrote me saying.

"If you can tell me the target in ppm for each of the micro nutrients, we can make up a mix that will deliver that to the plants when diluted as we will instruct. Each gallon of Micro Mix will provide enough micro nutrients for about 25,000 gallons of feed strength fertilizer."

Link to Crop King Micro Mix

The recipe that is posted in this thread calls for ppm's of

Nitrogen 270 ----- 5.2% as NH4 (ammonium)
Phosphorus 79
Potassium 250
Magnesium 90
Calcium 281
*Sulfur 119
*Iron 10.00*
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

*Using the ppm's given above, CK should be able to custom make a mix of the micro nutes (*in bold*) for their Micro Mix. Correct?

I figure I can buy the remaining chemicals,

Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Iron Chelate
MonoPotassium Phosphate
Magnesium Sulfate

mix them them as previously instructed, add the appropriate amount of Micro Mix to complete the recipe. Right? 

Is there anything wrong with this picture? am i missing something?

YGB


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## tea tree (Mar 4, 2010)

gh three part is cheap. burp. . .


jk

cool they make that per specifaction.


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## fatman7574 (Mar 4, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> I've been e-mailing with Crop King about buying their chemicals for fertilizer. It appears I can buy their Micro Mix of the following micro-nutrients - Manganese, Boron, Copper, Zinc and Molybdinum. One of their employees wrote me saying.
> 
> "If you can tell me the target in ppm for each of the micro nutrients, we can make up a mix that will deliver that to the plants when diluted as we will instruct. Each gallon of Micro Mix will provide enough micro nutrients for about 25,000 gallons of feed strength fertilizer."
> Link to Crop King Micro Mix
> ...


First off it is obvious it would be only a 2500 to 1 concentarte not a 25,000 gallon to 1 mix. A 25,00 to one mix would require the dissolved over 16 pounds of metal sulfates into just one gallon of water. 

The simple way you can positively tell they are not supplying a micro mix for 25,000 gallons diluted is they advertise the shipping weight at 10 pounds "Shipping Weight: 10lbs". You can not put 16 pounds of something in a one gallon jug with about 8.35 pounds of water and end up with 10 pounds, but you can add 1.6 pounds to 8.35 pounds and end up with about 10 pounds. 

A 2,500 to one mix would mean about 1.6 pounds. Even figuring their lost cost micro nutrients at $3.44 per pound they would be selling you a minimum of $55 worth of salts premixed for half price and they eta the labor and price of the jug and label. It is much more likely that they would sell you $5.50 worth of salts with a jug for $27.

That 2,500 gallon concentrate is far from a good deal for you, but an excellent one for them. To buy the ingrediants they supply in their micro mix in pounds except instead buy the molybdenum from eBay would cost only $32.60 versus the $27 per gallon for their mixed micro in a jug. 

You still need to buy the iron chelate anyway. It is cheaper on Ebay by about $10. http://cgi.ebay.com/SEQUESTRENE-330-FE-CHELATED-IRON-10-QUICK-GREEN-5-LBS_W0QQitemZ320449799266QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFertilizer_Soil_Amendments?hash=item4a9c4be462

The real expense in the bulk trace elements is in the chelated iron which would not be in the trace element solution they sent you anyway. 

Plus you would be paying for the cost of shipping about 8 pounds of water and jug versus four pounds od salts. You can save on the large expense for the molybdenum by buying a smaller amount than Crop King sells through the eBay link I supplied earlier. Crop King is not offering to do you any real favors they are simply offering you a deal that makes them a *greater profit*.

Here is what they will sell you for $27 premixed but without the iron. The iron must be added to Part A of your regular fertilizer. 

*ppm*

Iron 10.00 not supplied

Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

*Ounces*

*Part A*

Iron Chelate 33.75 not supplied

*Part B*

Manganese Sulfate 6.723
Boric Acid / Solubor 9.188
Zinc Sulfate 7.285
Copper Sulfate 1.470
Ammonium Molybdate .061 = 1.71 grams

Volume of Stock Solutions 1 gallon
Dilution Rate 2500 not 25,000


As you can see it takes approx half a pound of each of the the top ingrediants, so for those they are charging double. For the copper they are cgharging about a 800% mark up and on the Moly they are charging an even larger market up as it takes less than $2 worth of Moly for a 2500 gallon batch.

Either you made a typo, the email sender made a typo or the person sending the email is an idiot or just being deceptive in saying feed strength. Why would nayone feed at 1/10 the formula strength. requested in ppm's. Yepper the dude is an idiot or a liar.


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## YouGrowBoy (Mar 5, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> First off it is obvious it would be only a 2500 to 1 concentarte not a 25,000 gallon to 1 mix. A 25,00 to one mix would require the dissolved over 16 pounds of metal sulfates into just one gallon of water.
> 
> Here is what they will sell you for $27 premixed but without the iron. The iron must be added to Part A of your regular fertilizer.
> 
> ...


I wrote to CK and asked about the dilution rate. Here is their response.

"One gallon of Micro Mix will make 5 50 gallon batches of concentrate. Each 50 gallons of concentrate is diluted 1:100 through the injectors. Therefore 5 x 50 x 100 = 25,000 gallons of feed solution."

One question I have is, are the ppm's in your recipe the ppm's of the concentrated stock or the final diluted mix?

YGB


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## fatman7574 (Mar 5, 2010)

And that will give you a concentration of one tenth of the amount required. for the formulation I gave you. So unless you intend to dilute the formual I gave you 1000 to 1 instead of 100 to one they are just jacking you around to make a sell. I will emuail the idiots to see just waht they are saying the ppm of their finished diltution will be. I have sent them an email. Hopefully they will answer.


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## patlpp (Mar 5, 2010)

That would put it at 1c a gallon ?.... Somebody at King missed a decimal somewhere


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## fatman7574 (Mar 5, 2010)

patlpp said:


> That would put it at 1c a gallon ?.... Somebody at King missed a decimal somewhere


I would hope it is an honest error and not an intentional attemp at deception. If it is an error I think they owe YouGrowBoy a free gallon of Micro Mix custom mixed. A decimal point error is not acceptable for a custom nutrient mixer who is quite dependent on worth of mouth for sells. The mj growers market is a very lucrative market so I am sure they do not want to screw this up nand have it plastered online in a bad manner.


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## fatman7574 (Mar 5, 2010)

Just received a reply from Crop King:

Dear *****: 
I have probably been talking to and e-mailing your friend. This is the first that specific levels on the ingredients have been mentioned. The targets are in the range of 10 times as high as our usual mix. That probably accounts for the factor of 10 difference. 
We could mix such a recipe and you would need to make the final dilution 2500 gallons. 
Jim Brown 

"Jim Brown" [email protected]

I have no idea why they use such dilute formulas unless they are using them for soil grows rather than Inert Hydro. The micro nutrient ppm levels I use in my formulations are pretty much the industry standard for inert gydro. In fact some Mj specific formulas actually run even a little higher ppm's for Iron. However also to be considered my formualtions are nearly always for a 2.7 EC and nearly no one uses it full strength. About 1.7 to 1.9 is about tops. An EC of 0.27 is absurd for inert hydro though. Soil, maybe.

So they will sell you 2,500 to one concentrate for $27 not 25,000 to one. 

I would just buy the bulk ingrediants.


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## YouGrowBoy (Mar 5, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Just received a reply from Crop King:
> 
> Dear *****:
> I have probably been talking to and e-mailing your friend. This is the first that specific levels on the ingredients have been mentioned. The targets are in the range of 10 times as high as our usual mix. That probably accounts for the factor of 10 difference.
> ...


Fatman, Thanks for the follow up and getting a straight answer. Jim is the guy I was e-mailing with. 

I'm going to look around where I live to see if I can find what I need. I hate paying so much for shipping and also a little paranoid to have so much chemical shipped to me. That's why the micro mix looked interesting.

I will be making my own, but I'm not in a big hurry.


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## squarepush3r (Mar 5, 2010)

any comments on this as a Micro mix, to tailor how you wanted later?


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## patlpp (Mar 5, 2010)

What is the N-P-K of part 'B" ??


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## fatman7574 (Mar 6, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> any comments on this as a Micro mix, to tailor how you wanted later?


It is at least a 300 to one concentration micro formulation. It is definitely designed to use with their own formulation though as they threw in the Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Magnesium to keep growers from using it as a micro mix for other brands of nutrients. I would not recommend that it be used as the micro portion for other nutrients mixes as it contains a butt load of Phosphorous and Potash even if diluted 300 to one. A 100 to 1 dilution would be 1400 ppm phosphorous and 2400 ppm potassium or 466 ppm and 800 ppm diluted 300 to 1.


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## clydefrog (Mar 6, 2010)

so i don't understand the necessity to mix your nutrients in solution ahead of time. could you not mix the dry ingredients together and add them to your rez by the half teaspoon (or whatever measurement it came out to be) whenever you topped it off?


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## fatman7574 (Mar 6, 2010)

As long as you keep the Part A ingredients separate from the Part B ingredients and keep them in moisture proof containers you could do that. Just divide your total weight for each part by your dilution (IE 100 to 1 etc) factor or use a EC meter. If you try adding the Part A and Part B both at the same time it is quite likely some precipitates would form. There is however no reason to need to mix everything into a concentrate except that it guarantees the nutrients are well mixed where as in a powder/granular/crystalline form the different densities and particle sizes would cause different settling rates so you would need to throughly mix the dry ingredients before each use. A jug just requires a couple shakes.


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## squarepush3r (Mar 6, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> It is at least a 300 to one concentration micro formulation. It is definitely designed to use with their own formulation though as they threw in the Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Magnesium to keep growers from using it as a micro mix for other brands of nutrients. I would not recommend that it be used as the micro portion for other nutrients mixes as it contains a butt load of Phosphorous and Potash even if diluted 300 to one. A 100 to 1 dilution would be 1400 ppm phosphorous and 2400 ppm potassium or 466 ppm and 800 ppm diluted 300 to 1.


Fatman, what would you think of using that Micro and P-K formula, and just adding Nitrogen?


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## fatman7574 (Mar 6, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> any comments on this as a Micro mix, to tailor how you wanted later?
> 
> This left hand numbers show the ppms of the Present Vita Grow Micro
> Nitrogen 400 New Level 3600 ppm
> ...


This left hand numbers show the ppms of the Present Vita Grow Micro
Nitrogen 400 New Level 3600 ppm
Phosphorus 1399
Potassium 2399
Magnesium 300
Calcium 00 New Level 1600 ppm
Sulfur 398
Iron 30.00
Manganese 15.00
Boron 6.00
Zinc 4.00
Copper 4.00

Ounces ~ 165.2
Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100

You need to add 3200 ppm of Nitrate and 1600 pm of calcium to balance the NPK using the calcium nitrate. That would mean adding 273.2 ounces to each 165.2 ounces of the Vita Grow Micro. Or simply add 1.65 ounces of sodium nitrate per each 1 ounce of the Vita Grow Micro. This is a very strong concentrate. The Micro levels would tend to indicate needing to dilute at a rate of 300 to 1 while the Major nutrients would tend to indicate the need to dilute at a rate of at least 900 to 1. This should be OK with likely only a chance of an Iron deficiency during budding if you allow the pH to rise and stay above 5.6 to any large extent.
You would also need to very heavily aerate the nutrient soltion after n mixing it as the manafacturer states less than 2% chlorine. Lets say 1.99%. That means 199 ppm. That is one huge load odf chlorine. Like about 200 to 800 times as much as in tap water. It will blow off with strong aeration with a pump or air stones as long as it is diluted and in an open contianer with a large surface area ie Rubber Maid tote etc.


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## clydefrog (Mar 10, 2010)

so i've been looking around at some of the commercial ferts around and nobody, i mean nobody even comes close to the level of iron you're using...even some iron specific stuff for poinsettias.

is mj an iron specific feeder? did you notice iron deficiencies in some of your grows?

just curious.


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## fatman7574 (Mar 10, 2010)

Poinsettias, wow you must be reading to much of that dirt growing Uncle Ben's info to be talking poinsettas? 

Here are a few examples of industry standards for different crops and ornamentals: Roses 17.5 Spinach 28, Peas 17.5, Peppers 17.5. Actually the majority of food and ornamentals grown hydroponically havve nutrient formulations with iron at 17.5 to 20 ppm. I am not sure what formulations you are looking at or if your even looking at formulas for inert hydro.

I do not use a large dose of iron at 10 ppm, even for a mj specific hydro formula. That is pretty much standard for inert hydro where pH is low at below 6. AN actually starts at 10 ppm and actually goes up to 12, 13 or even 20 ppm with its Sensi formulas. GH pretty much sticks to about 10 ppm, however a few formulations are at 12 ppm. mj does like its iron and iron deficiencies are quite common when using formulations with low concentrations of iron. Iron is also tied up quite often in different compounds and is very prone to precipitation if the pH rises above 6.5 for even an instant. 

You also have to consider the fertilizer industry has gotten to the point that they a call any system where a soluble fertilizer is the chief source of fertilizer as hydro. That means potting soil grows, cocaonout fiber grows and even out door soil grows fed with soluble fertilizer are now being called hydro. Soil grows use less iron as the nutrients accumalate in soil, they do not accumulatte in an inert media.


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## clydefrog (Mar 11, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Poinsettias, wow you must be reading to much of that dirt growing Uncle Ben's info to be talking poinsettas?
> 
> Here are a few examples of industry standards for different crops and ornamentals: Roses 17.5 Spinach 28, Peas 17.5, Peppers 17.5. Actually the majority of food and ornamentals grown hydroponically havve nutrient formulations with iron at 17.5 to 20 ppm. I am not sure what formulations you are looking at or if your even looking at formulas for inert hydro.
> 
> ...


no i think i was just getting my decimal points in the wrong place. i've been checking out some of the ws stuff (jacks, peters) my horticulture supplier stocks. thats all.


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## fatman7574 (Mar 11, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> no i think i was just getting my decimal points in the wrong place. i've been checking out some of the ws stuff (jacks, peters) my horticulture supplier stocks. thats all.


If they list in % instead of ppm just multiply times 100 to get the ppm.


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## sdkid (Apr 15, 2010)

Interesting thread, im glad i enrolled in chem.

To make short thing short. Fatman, i'm doing aero/nfl, similar to stink set-up but with twice or even more the flow of water and a little bit more spacing in the fence-post. You mention 3-1-2 ratio, could i just run the dyna-gro floiage for the entire grow? from veg to flowering.

I been hammering my head with what nutrients to run and use, i figure i first have to understand plant growth. I use to be a follower of stinkbud recipe, the botincare line. Organic was best right as he said, but what did i knew then. 

According to your research and knowledge, what is best nutes that i can run for medium res that is recirculated? approx 10-15gal. I would like to hear whats your on using nutes with tap or ro'd water. There is alot of controversy about both, al b. famous quote, "as long as you can drink it, you can safely grow cannisbus with it". I know my set-up is par with the hydro to waste, but work with me


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## fatman7574 (Apr 25, 2010)

I can't comment to much on the work or opinions of the guru status "experts" as I tend to get banished for doing that. I will say I get larger yields than the "experts" at a much lower production cost and I most often find what they write as being far from scientifically based or even based uopn emperical observations but most often their opinions are just old myths being regurgitated. I have been growing indoors under lights, hydroponically for several decades and gave up on most of their archaic practices over 20 years ago. I am just not one that settles for "well enough" when better is possible and very often more productive and economical.


But to put it simply. Besides teaching, I am in charge of a university water research lab and I also design water treatment plants, waste water treatment plants and fish hatcheries. I will simply say that unless you have someone with an education in water chemistry to look over a water analysis of your water so as to adjust your nutrient formulation or design a custom formulation I would highly recommend a RO filter. A simple RO filter such as this one for $124 would be fine:

http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_di_systems.htm

If you are going to use a small tube type system for NTF I would recomend that you put root mat or silkscreen cloth on the bottom of the tubes. Dyna-Gro has to little calcium and magmesiun for indoor hydro grow. If you add Botanicare Cal-Mag that will eliminate that problem, but not the ammonium problem of Dyna-Gro. Dyna-gro has a huge amount of its total nitrogen as ammonium nitrate. This tends to cause large daily drops in pH. I realy donot recommend anyone use Dyna-gro unless they are growing out doors in soil or peat moss, unless they use a pH controllert 24/7

I mix my own nutrient formulations. For a recirculation reservervoir system I would suggest using GH (NOT LUCAS) Flora two part (Grow, Bloom) and FloraMicro at about 1/2 to 2/3 the strength they recommend. No supplements. I would suggest you read up on using chlorine to control root rot.


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## patlpp (Apr 25, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I would suggest you read up on using chlorine to control root rot.


Fatman I read up on chlorine in one of your other posts: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/286022-killing-root-rot-2.html  

SDKID thats a good place to get chlorine info

Question: Are you familiar with Dutch Master ZONE? I use it in lieu of chlorine or H2O2. It has this faint chlorine smell so I think it has some in it. My roots are always healthy now that I use it. I can't find any detailed data on it but it was highly recommended. Fairly cheap at 2 cents to dose a gallon. I understand that H2O2 has some effect on Iron. Could you elaborate on this? Thanks.

I asked a question on another thread which you kindly took the time to reply, very in depth I might add, and I thank you.


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## bman01 (Apr 28, 2010)

Hi Fatman
Great thread and Im hoping you can help me.

We have had a law change in my country and as of now photographic ID has to be presented and recorded to purchase anything from a hydroponic retailer including nutrients. I have access to the raw materials but would not no how to start making my own nutrients so I'm hoping that you can help me.

I grow 6 plants in their own 15L Hempy buckets that are watered every other day in a perlite/vermiculite 4/1 mix.
I guess you know what a hempy bucket is ( 15L bucket filled with my mix. Small hole 50mm from the bottom and watered every other day untill It comes out the hole. Each bucket has its own small res so to speak )

I use rain water.

My room is well temp controlled at about 77-78deg and plants are circled around 2 600hps stacked above each other.
I typically veg 4 wks plus finishing at 5-6' . . . . so I guess I grow trees.

My predicament is that I cant buy nutes safely anymore and was hoping you could put together a recipe for me for both veg and bloom. I was using GH Flora series with reasonable results. I obviously dont go through huge amounts with this many plants but really need to make my own now. I guess a 3 part gives you better flexibility than the Lucas method. What are your thoughts.
Thanks in advance
BMan


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## fatman7574 (Apr 28, 2010)

bman01 said:


> Hi Fatman
> Great thread and Im hoping you can help me.
> 
> We have had a law change in my country and as of now photographic ID has to be presented and recorded to purchase anything from a hydroponic retailer including nutrients. I have access to the raw materials but would not no how to start making my own nutrients so I'm hoping that you can help me.
> ...


The below formulations are for recirculation reservoir systems. They are low ammonium nitrogen fertilizations so they have lower phosphorus as typically phosphoric acid is being added quite often due to pH rises during high nitrate uptake. If you like I can make up formualtions more desirable to your growing method. Your method is more like a soil grow but with out the humus to buffer against pH rises. Your system would likely do better with lower calcium, and magnesium but higher phosphorus as one would use with a drain to waster hydro like a high pressure aero system.

*fatman's Veg Formulation*
*ppm*

Nitrogen 267
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 291
Magnesium 93
Calcium 261
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

*Ounces*

*Part A*

Calcium Nitrate 91.5
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
Iron Chelate 7.14
Part B
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
MonoPotassium Phosphate 27.3
Magnesium Sulfate 66.4
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
*Volume of Stock Solutions*
*5.3 gallons*
*Dilution Rate 100*
*EC 2.75*
*pH 5.8*
*TDS 1925*

*fatman's Bloom Formula*
*ppm*
Nitrogen 240
Phosphorus 74
Potassium 261
Magnesium 84
Calcium 235
Sulfur 111
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

*Ounces* 

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 82.2
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
Iron Chelate 7.14

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
*Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3*
*Dilution Rate 100*
*EC 2.47*
*TDS 1729*
*pH 5.8*

*Yes the formulations can be made in smaller batchs. Say for a 1.06 gallon batch divide each ingrediant by 5. A batch of say 5.3 gallons of concentrate means 2.65 gallons of Part A and 2.65 gallons of Part B. Not 5.3 gallons of each. The formulations should cost about $5 per each gallon of 100 to 1 concentrate. *


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## bman01 (Apr 29, 2010)

Fatman thanks so much for your quick response. *If you could make up formulations for my pots that would be greatly appreciated.* I cant believe they have made this law change. Anyway if you make up this formulation I have absolutely no need to visit hydro stores as I can source everything elsewhere. I was growing in coco but only the hydro stores sell it here but I think I will do ok with the 4/1 perlite vermiculite mix. Do you think that medium mix is a good ratio to wick up from the bottom of the bucket? I will experiment with the hole position to get to a daily watering cycle as I become more familiar with the system. Got to be better than dirt!
I searched for days to find a thread like this as I always felt robbed from the nutrient companies . . . . Great job mate!!


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## AeroTrek (Apr 30, 2010)

Hi Fatman,

In your main mineral list you have Sulfur. Is that Sulfuric acid and how does it play into parts "A" & "B"? Also, I'm assuming Mono Potassium Phosphate is a mix of Potassium and Phosphorus listed in the main ingredients with the appropriate PPM's. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.


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## fatman7574 (Apr 30, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Hi Fatman,
> 
> In your main mineral list you have Sulfur. Is that Sulfuric acid and how does it play into parts "A" & "B"? Also, I'm assuming Mono Potassium Phosphate is a mix of Potassium and Phosphorus listed in the main ingredients with the appropriate PPM's. Is this correct?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The top of the list is what is listed as a guranteed analysis by ppm (grams/liter). Sulfur is the contribution of sulfr from the fertilizer compound magnesium sulfate with a very small additional amount of sulfate also coming from some of the trace nutrients. Plants get enough sulfur from the magnesium sulfate so commonly sulfuric acid is not need for its sulfur content. When it is used by growers it is used to lower the nutrient pH. However Phophoric acid is more commonly use as a recirculating resrvoir is alwys losing phosphorus in buffering compounds being formed so it is more beneficial then sulfuric acid. 

Lower down you will see the list and the weights of the actual fertilizers you would use (either in grams or ounces depending on which formulation your viewing).. Yes mono potassium phosphate is a fertilizer compound containing both Phosphorus and Potassium. Calcium Nitrate is a fertilizer compound containing Calcium and nitrate. The formulas posted are pH adjusted for use in RO water or water near a pH of 7. There should not be any pH adjustment need when the mix is initally used at a 1 to 1 ratio of Part A to Part B. 

The nutrients when mixed at 100 to 1 with water are quite strong. Much stronger than most people would use. A 150 to 1 ratio would be sufficient.

Consider the Bloom formula at 100 to 1 being an EC of 2.47, mixing it at 150 to 1 would mean; [(2.47 + 2.47/2)]/2 = 1.85 for an EC or roughly (1.85 * 700) = 1295 ppm.


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## bman01 (Apr 30, 2010)

Hi Fatman

Any luck with my new formulation?

Cheers Bman


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## reeferMaster (Apr 30, 2010)

nutrients are nutrients its al about the npk value i only got 2 page 2 but yall should watch this video on you tube called the the great phosphorus myth, gives newbie growers an idea of how much nutes cannibus really uses, peace all


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## fatman7574 (May 1, 2010)

reeferMaster said:


> nutrients are nutrients its al about the npk value i only got 2 page 2 but yall should watch this video on you tube called the the great phosphorus myth, gives newbie growers an idea of how much nutes cannibus really uses, peace all


Dude, you are obviously not very learned about the topic of hydroponic nutrients chemistry/formulations. The fact that you think Fat Mikie of AN has any idea what he is talking about is proof enough you need to read the whole thread rather than bring uo the ludicrous phosphorus great debate video. The NPK values are just a small part of hydroponic nutrient formualtions. Do you know anything about aquatic chemistry or carbonate chemistry? If you think the phosphorus great debate video is any thing but more of Mikie's marketing your obviously not knowledgable enough about the science of hydroponic nutrient chemistry and formulations to be cutting from page 2 to the back page and making an off the wall statement like "it is all about NPK values" and "watch this video on the you tube called the great phosphorus myth."

Fat Mike will say or do anything to try to make it appear his products are better than GH or Canna or Botanicare including posting absurd videos such as The Great Phosphorus Myth. The man belongs behind bars. Course it would very likelynot be a good idea to go to the consumer protection people or the better business bureau, a prosecutor, attorney general or a lawyer to sue or have prosecuted someone who is selling you mj nutrients and lieing about mj nutrients etc.


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## bman01 (May 1, 2010)

Hi Fatman
Just wondering if you had a chance to look at a modified nutrient plan for my buckets. Thanks again!

Cheers

Bman


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## ~JB~ (May 1, 2010)

bman01 said:


> Hi Fatman
> Just wondering if you had a chance to look at a modified nutrient plan for my buckets. Thanks again!
> 
> Cheers
> ...



relentless much? lol
seriously though, in the past 2 days you have asked him this same question four different times. maybe he hasnt had time to make you your own personal nutrient formula?


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## bman01 (May 2, 2010)

LOL I feel like a stalker
Na just in a real jam at the moment so just makn sure it dosn't get missed. . . . . . damn Law changes has caught me without nutes 5 weeks into 12/12. More desperate than relentless kinda had to put all my eggs in fatmans basket. I"m sure hes real busy and certainly appreciate his help.

This shit always happens when you least expect it!

Sorry to sound like a broken record fatman!


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## 12268 (May 2, 2010)

bman01 said:


> LOL I feel like a stalker
> Na just in a real jam at the moment so just makn sure it dosn't get missed. . . . . . damn Law changes has caught me without nutes 5 weeks into 12/12. More desperate than relentless kinda had to put all my eggs in fatmans basket. I"m sure hes real busy and certainly appreciate his help.
> 
> This shit always happens when you least expect it!
> ...


yeah, and the worst part is that he ALREADY ANSWERED your question 1 page back..and yet you are too busy posting (begging) for FREE CONSULTATION to go read it!!. I think that was quite nice of fatman, but why do you stalk the guy after he answered you?!

(ps this thread is 12 pages, and isn't the only one fatman has posted in..plenty of information that you could try reading instead of begging to be spoon-fed)


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## 12268 (May 2, 2010)

bman01 said:


> Fatman thanks so much for your quick response. *If you could make up formulations for my pots that would be greatly appreciated.* I cant believe they have made this law change. Anyway if you make up this formulation I have absolutely no need to visit hydro stores as I can source everything elsewhere. I was growing in coco but only the hydro stores sell it here but I think I will do ok with the 4/1 perlite vermiculite mix. Do you think that medium mix is a good ratio to wick up from the bottom of the bucket? I will experiment with the hole position to get to a daily watering cycle as I become more familiar with the system. Got to be better than dirt!
> I searched for days to find a thread like this as I always felt robbed from the nutrient companies . . . . Great job mate!!


yeah dude..ungrateful much?? people pay MONEY AND LOTS OF IT for personalized consultation like what you want spoon-fed..only all you are offering is your "appreciation" WOWW..exactly WHAT IS you problem with the forumlation he gave your or any of the other bajillion formulations he has posted here?


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## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

bman01 said:


> LOL I feel like a stalker
> Na just in a real jam at the moment so just makn sure it dosn't get missed. . . . . . damn Law changes has caught me without nutes 5 weeks into 12/12. More desperate than relentless kinda had to put all my eggs in fatmans basket. I"m sure hes real busy and certainly appreciate his help.
> 
> This shit always happens when you least expect it!
> ...


As you can see it is for 5 gallons of part A and 5 gallons of part B to be mixed in equal parts. Water with fertilizer the first day then one or two days with just RO water. I would not use it any stronger than a 200 to 1 mix. IE 19 ml of each per gallon. To mix say 1/2 gallon of each just devide every weight by 10. Basically it takes just 2.6 pounds of fertilizer to makeonegallon of 100x concentrate fertilizer. In small amounts fertilizers sell for an average of about $2 to $3 per pound. An average of $1 per pound in large 50 pound bags and with tarce nutrients in one or two pound bags. Kinda makes you go huh, WTF? Five dollars to make your own and $50 or to $100 for the same stuff retailed in a plastic jug with a pretty label. Yepper them Mj nutrient guys be living in million dollar homes with 8 car garages full of Hummer's, BMW's, Mercedes, restored classic muscle cars and custom Harleys as we all risk going to Federal prisons. Some kinda scam they and the *eed growers got goin'. Hide behind a foreign border and suck money out of the wallets of 10's of thousands of U.S. mj growers. Oh my!

*ppm*
Nitrogen 230
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 359
Magnesium 93
Calcium 184
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00 
Molybdenum 0.09

*Ounces*
*Part A*
Calcium Nitrate 121.8
Potassium Nitrate 44.3
Iron Chelate 13.50

*Part B* 
Potassium Nitrate B 44.3
MonoPotassium Phosphate 51.6
Magnesium Sulfate 125.4
Manganese Sulfate 2.689
Boric Acid / Solubor 3.675
Zinc Sulfate 2.914
Copper Sulfate .588
Ammonium Molybdate .024
Volume of Stock Solutions 10 (5 gal Part A and 5 Gallons Part B)
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.58
TDS 1806
pH 5.8 
Salt Weight 3105


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## bman01 (May 2, 2010)

12268 said:


> yeah dude..ungrateful much?? people pay MONEY AND LOTS OF IT for personalized consultation like what you want spoon-fed..only all you are offering is your "appreciation" WOWW..exactly WHAT IS you problem with the forumlation he gave your or any of the other bajillion formulations he has posted here?


Yes he was kind enough to post a formula to help me out of a serious jam and if you read that post completely you will find that he offered to put together a revised formula more suited to my situation. I have helped people out of serious jams in other forums where their posts have been missed and am happy to help anyone as is fatman by the looks of it. I read the thread front to back before asking someone who is more than qualified to answer a technical question that most would not be able to. I dont recall begging but was on huge time restraints and was not trying to rush fatman but merely making sure my posts did not get missed as they sometimes seem to. I did not beg or ask to be spoon fed I just needed urgent info. Having read a few of Fatmans posts I'm pretty sure he can stick up for himself if he feels that he needs too. But in saying that I understand waht you are saying and alot of people ask without searching but I did search as I always do! Thanks for your comments though


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## bman01 (May 2, 2010)

Fatman thanks so much!! I'll let you know how it works out and post complete stats for my grow. That way hopefully others can get something out of it too. I appologize if I came accross in the way that 12268 has said but that was certainly not my intention. Making my own nutrients is not my strong point and this site is extremely lucky to have your expertise.

Just to make sure I've got it right Fatman the original recirculating formula was for 2.65gal water for A and 2.65gal for B? So this one makes twice as much at 5gal A and 5 gal B? I can half the ingredients on the revised formula and use 2.5gal of water for A and 2.5gal for B . . correct?

The latter formula is for Bloom?

If you could spoon feed me the veg formula too if you get a chance that would be fantastic.

Thanks again!

Grow safe!!

Bman


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## reeferMaster (May 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Dude, you are obviously not very learned about the topic of hydroponic nutrients chemistry/formulations. The fact that you think Fat Mikie of AN has any idea what he is talking about is proof enough you need to read the whole thread rather than bring uo the ludicrous phosphorus great debate video. The NPK values are just a small part of hydroponic nutrient formualtions. Do you know anything about aquatic chemistry or carbonate chemistry? If you think the phosphorus great debate video is any thing but more of Mikie's marketing your obviously not knowledgable enough about the science of hydroponic nutrient chemistry and formulations to be cutting from page 2 to the back page and making an off the wall statement like "it is all about NPK values" and "watch this video on the you tube called the great phosphorus myth."
> 
> Fat Mike will say or do anything to try to make it appear his products are better than GH or Canna or Botanicare including posting absurd videos such as The Great Phosphorus Myth. The man belongs behind bars. Course it would very likelynot be a good idea to go to the consumer protection people or the better business bureau, a prosecutor, attorney general or a lawyer to sue or have prosecuted someone who is selling you mj nutrients and lieing about mj nutrients etc.


dude if u actually watched the video it really has nothing 2 do with advanced nutrients, its statistics on cannibus tissue samples and what they desire most, he didnt says that the companys are bad, heres where u pull ur head far from ur ass, he was mentioning thier needs, witch would be the npk value on nutrients, other plants have different desire for minor nutrients, he explains what the plant wants during flower stage compared 2 what it wants during vegging, he explains why the npk value on some bloom bootsters are useless for cannibus and do not provide proper nutrition for max yeiled... i dont really care for fat mike or an i just like the information on cannibus growing everybody watch it,( the great phosphorus myth) on you tube


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## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

reeferMaster said:


> dude if u actually watched the video it really has nothing 2 do with advanced nutrients, its statistics on cannibus tissue samples and what they desire most, he didnt says that the companys are bad, heres where u pull ur head far from ur ass, he was mentioning thier needs, witch would be the npk value on nutrients, other plants have different desire for minor nutrients, he explains what the plant wants during flower stage compared 2 what it wants during vegging, he explains why the npk value on some bloom boosters are useless for cannibus and do not provide proper nutrition for max yeiled... i dont really care for fat mike or an i just like the information on cannibus growing everybody watch it,( the great phosphorus myth) on you tube


Dude (heres where u pull ur head far from ur ass - you can be editted and banished for such remarks addressed towrds another forum poster dude). You are the unknowledgable one in this discussion not I. 

Every thing Mikie does is about AN and selling AN products and saying his products are better than the other products. He even specifically stated the owners name of GH and stated specifically that he was wrong in his beliefs about plant needs etc. Fat Milke is out to do one thing. Make lots of money. He is not honest nor forthright, he talks in nothing but half truths just like a laywer or used car dealer. He is not our friend . He is a parasite feeding on unknowing mj growers such as you and most other growers. Few growers have an understanding of carbonate chemistry or aquatic chemsitry, or just general chemistry. He obviously does not either. His PhD's would definitely not agrre with waht he did in his video. Too little usable dat as the pertinent informatoion was not presented. His charts would be useful if everyone grew mj only with a drain to waste system. That is not the case though, so his charts, arguments and expressed opinions are moot for the vast majority of mj hydroponic griowers as they use recirculating reservoirs. 


The charts of minerals in tissue examples only show waht the plants uptake and incorporate into their tissues. The charts do not indicate the levels of those minerals that need to be maintained in a recirculating reservoir soup in order to maintain a balance that allows those needed mineral salts to be taken up by the plants.

It is as asimple as this: Marketers so as to simplify things in their advertising etc have been saying that plants have such and such needs during such and such stage of growth. This was, and still, is just as Mikie is now doing IE "speaking in half truths." The full truth is that plant tissue samples show what minerals the plants has uptaken and incorporated/stored at the stage of growth when the sample was taken and no more. Plants take up and incorporate into their tissues more than they need and then draw from those stored nutrients as needed. Tissue sample do not tell us how much is need and how much is stored extra nutrients. Tissue samples also do not tell us how the reservoirs ratio changes due to buffering and due to introduction of more of some and less of other nutrients than might be necessary to provide an optimum ratio to provide the ultimate up take availability of the required nutrients. 

Once again this is not an issue with drain to waste stystems. Yes you can base your nutrient formulation for drain to waste entirely upon tissue samples and balancing the nutrient pH just once when the solution is innitally prepared. So no in that respect you do not need the increased pg hosphorus or anthing else in increadsed amounts above the ratios sj hownin the tissue samples. Actually you caould even get awat y with less as you do not need to supply all the extra nutrients stored up by the plants to make up for occaisonalnutrient unavialabilty because that does not occur with drain to waste. That is not the case with recirculating systems. So either Fat Milie is a dumb ass and doesn't understand what he is talking about (very likely as he is only a mouth man not a chemist) and how it does not apply to the masses. Or he is a deceptive marketer)always) or a flat out liar (quiet often).

With all the blabbering he did he never once said, by the way none of this really applies to how the nutrient concentrations need to be proportioned in the typical recirculating reservoir but only the amount of nutrients stored and incorporated into the tissues at different stages of development wheter they need them at those levels or not. He did not explain that he was telling us about things that really help us not at all unless we are drain to waste growers, but as presented can hurt us alot as we would neraly always experince some nytrient deficiencies (note the ge reat number of nutrient deficiencies people provide links to). He is a parasite doing us wrong again.

Sure what the MJ manfacturers (even him) have been saying for a long time has been poorly said. But imagine the confusion in saying though the palnts do not need n more of this nutrient or that during this stage of growth they instead siad your nutrients solution needs to be changed or adjusted do you the use of recirculating resrvoirs and that the adjustments need vary at different stages of growth and with different lighting, temperatures, humidities, CO2 levels and nutrient formulations. They are merely trying to keep it simple. Fat Mikie obviously knows that as he himself has been doing the same thing and saying the same things. Now however he is just pulling his dumb marketing act again and saying everyone is wrong as the plants do not have these high needs etc. Duh. Every nutrient manfacturer knows that already. 

The marketers have tried to keep it simple by using half truths. The sad side is forum growers taking it fior the whole truth and therefore creating often regurgiated myths. Fat Mikie however for marketing purposes alone is now confusing the nutrient issues with his *half truth video*. No marketer has yet to share the whole truth as that would cut sells and therefore profits. Once again *Fat Mike is not our friend* and he did not make and post his video all over the web to help the mj growers. He created more confusion which promotes more sells. This is the same dum ass y who ranted on about other growing supply manafcturers who refuse to sell to stores who sell AN prodi ucts just due to Fat Mikie's insane marketing c=schemes thatcause states to pass more stringent laws on horticultural supply stores. The guy is a menace to the horticultural stores and all growers of mj. Gorowers do not need sensationalism, but Mikie is all about sensationalism.

Think of simple emperical evidence such as this. Why when there are no boosters used, such as higher phosphoris, calcium, magnesisun and iron etc, are there commonly deficiency signs shown by plants during budding. Fat Mikie says the tissue samples show the plants do not need more of such minerals. IE the nutrient solution needs to be balanced so that the nutrients are available. If the nutrients are not balanced the nutrients are no available for the pants tio take up even though tey are in the reservoir. Fat Mike conviently leaves this out of the video. Next the dufus will be saying it is not necessary to keep the pH in the optimal nutrient availabilty range. The guy belongs behind bars, perhaps he can be Marc Emery's cell "mate".


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## 12268 (May 2, 2010)

well thank god fat mike is there to dispell myths purely for the purpose of good will..not to sell anything im sure


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## bman01 (May 2, 2010)

LMAO !!!! 12268 I just got a price to mix my own nutrients based on Fatmans formula and it works out to $23US to make up a 15 litres or both A and B. The company I used will sell all the dry ingredients in any quantities.


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## reeferMaster (May 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Dude (heres where u pull ur head far from ur ass - you can be editted and banished for such remarks addressed towrds another forum poster dude). You are the unknowledgable one in this discussion not I.
> 
> Every thing Mikie does is about AN and selling AN products and saying his products are better than the other products. He even specifically stated the owners name of GH and stated specifically that he was wrong in his beliefs about plant needs etc. Fat Milke is out to do one thing. Make lots of money. He is not honest nor forthright, he talks in nothing but half truths just like a laywer or used car dealer. He is not our friend . He is a parasite feeding on unknowing mj growers such as you and most other growers. Few growers have an understanding of carbonate chemistry or aquatic chemsitry, or just general chemistry. He obviously does not either. His PhD's would definitely not agrre with waht he did in his video. Too little usable dat as the pertinent informatoion was not presented. His charts would be useful if everyone grew mj only with a drain to waste system. That is not the case though, so his charts, arguments and expressed opinions are moot for the vast majority of mj hydroponic griowers as they use recirculating reservoirs.
> 
> ...


he didnt say gh was bad he said its for general crops not for cannibus, thier recipies are for genral growing, i didnt even read all that mumbojumbo u wrote i totally understand why people dont like this site any more..... gunna go cry 2 the moderators cuze u cant take a little shit talking im surprised u even waste ur time here, if every one watches this video (phosphorus myth) u can come up with ur own nutrient line and not have 2 get fed all this garbage here its supossed 2 be easy 2 grow weed not complicated, all i wanted 2 do is share this video with EVERYONE, and u had 2 talk abunch of crap about a company, this video has nothing 2 do with selling plant food just growing cannibus, peace out


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## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

reeferMaster said:


> he didnt say gh was bad he said its for general crops not for cannibus, thier recipies are for genral growing, i didnt even read all that mumbojumbo u wrote i totally understand why people dont like this site any more..... gunna go cry 2 the moderators cuze u cant take a little shit talking im surprised u even waste ur time here, if every one watches this video (phosphorus myth) u can come up with ur own nutrient line and not have 2 get fed all this garbage here its supossed 2 be easy 2 grow weed not complicated, all i wanted 2 do is share this video with EVERYONE, and u had 2 talk abunch of crap about a company, this video has nothing 2 do with selling plant food just growing cannibus, peace out


Dude he specifically show a chart for a mj specific nutrients and said it is all wrong and then referred to a magazine with an article written by Larry Brook of GH to emphasis that GH is wrong. He g as usuallis just being decptive by using a Urban Magazine to try to imply to people that GH is a producer of nutrients for genrral hydroponics when they are listed as producers of specilaity fertilizers and their product names even cleary show that. He did not state GH is for genrral growing. He clearly stated in the very beginning that the discussion is about nutrients for medical cannabis specifically not general crops. He then stated the tissue samples were samples of plants in the vegetative and flowering stages. He did not say flowering and budding stages of general horticultural products. He talks about partners saying he was stupid to make the video and they were right. By the way he is the founder and CEO with the majority interest in AN, some would more honestly say sole owner as the investors only have enough investment in the corporation so as to legally allow him to say he has investors. They have no control at all in any matters as he is the majority owner with complete control. 

As far as not being able to take coarsely and inappropriately written guff from someone like you, that is a joke. I just find your language unacceptable as it is clearly against forum rules. I have been banned repeatedly just for insulting someone, and I did this without vulgarity and in appropriate language as you choose to use. You say that people do not like the site yet the number of members and visitors continues to grow. I receive many PM's daily and by reputation points continue to grow in number. People do not leave this forum because people are disturbed by my posted information but because of people like you who post ludicrous links and argue your self into corners due to your lack of hydroponic nutrient reservoir chemistry so resort to swearing and implying untruths. 

Some of the worse bud in this country seems to be coming from low yield growers talking about how easy it is to grow pot. And like I said Mikie cleared little up with his deceptive half truth marketing scam called the great Phosphorus debate. As far as not reading the mumbo jumble. Not reading the entire contents of truly informative posts but relying on marketing videos like Mikie's video is clearly why you possess little knowledge about nutrient formulations for recirculating reservoirs. You have few reputation points and only one friend. With all nine of your threads combined you have had barely had only 1157 viewers. Very few replies to any of your threads. I could likely open a hydroponics nutrient thread and get easily over 2500 hits in thirty days dude. There are many people who want good information and who choose to learn rather than be dependent on people regurgitatiing nonsense and Fat Mikie video links to absurd Fat mike deceptivemarketing. The last nutrient thread that I posted to madefour orfive stars in a month and it was I hidden away under in general mj growing section. I can draw a high number of viewers and new registrants from other sites by doing so. Can you. I do not even have to use ridiculous thread titles like pounds per day or pounds per week. 

You posts in reply are simply insults and harassment, nothing substantive.


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## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

Enough about Fat Mikie and his deceptive marketing and his manipulative twisting of facts and his half truths. You reeferMaster are now on my ignore list.


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## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

bman01 said:


> Fatman thanks so much!! I'll let you know how it works out and post complete stats for my grow. That way hopefully others can get something out of it too. I appologize if I came accross in the way that 12268 has said but that was certainly not my intention. Making my own nutrients is not my strong point and this site is extremely lucky to have your expertise.
> 
> Just to make sure I've got it right Fatman the original recirculating formula was for 2.65gal water for A and 2.65gal for B? So this one makes twice as much at 5gal A and 5 gal B? I can half the ingredients on the revised formula and use 2.5gal of water for A and 2.5gal for B . . correct?
> 
> ...


The fertilizer makes 2.65 gallons of Part A and 2.65 gallons of part B that at a 100 to 1 concentration when mixed 1/2 part Part A and 1/2 Part Part B to 100 gallons of water IE 1 to 100 produces the ppm's listed. What I later recommended is that you use it at one half that strength. This means it will actually make up 1000 gallons diluted rather than 500 gallons. You can just dilute it to 5 gallons of each when first mixing it but the ppm when then diluted at 1/2 part Part A and 1/2 Part Part B to 100 gallons of water would produce a ppm of half that as listed.

Hopefully you will by PM to be willing to share a link to the site where you have ordered your salt mixed. I am sure many growers would love that link. There are many places in the U.S. and Europe that will custom mix nutrients to order. I am sure that is also the case in Canada. Basically you just need to supply the nutrient formulation percentages or ppm of the nutrients and the concentration you desire. There are govermnet registry sites in Californoia, Washington and Florida that post the information on AN, GH, Canna, Botanicare, Hun=mbolt and many other Mj specifin utrients. However they do not analyze for supplements such as amino acids, vitamins, humus, kelp etc.

there is realy no reason to pay the outrageous prices for mj specific fertilizers from places like AN, GH, Botanicare, Canna, Humbolt etc as they can be bought custom mixed for much, much less or custom mixed by your self for even less then that.


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## reeferMaster (May 3, 2010)

thats nice i watched the video 2 many times already i dont need ur oppion, n i think u take what big mike says 2 the next level and put words in his mouth 2 make ur self seem rite,or u didnt pay 2 close attention 2 the video w/e, instead of reading al this i could just use the right nutrients with the correct npk value and really not give a shit about all these calculations u make, when a plant needs 2 be fed u should feed it what it wants pure and simple,


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## fatman7574 (May 3, 2010)

Dude Fat Mikie believes the best way to make him self look good is is to make others look bad. This methodology of his is used repeatedly through out the whole video in both part one and part two. Fat Mikie has no idea where anyone else gets the information they base their formulations upon. Fat Mikie has no idea if GH or any other mj specific nutrient manufacturers has done mj tissue samples. To tell you the truth any mj specific manufacturers who states he is using tissue samples of mj to formulate his nutrients is stupid. It is insane actions such as that causing AN to be pulled out of so many US hydroponic stores. Most states consider AN products no different than paraphernalia or listed chemical used to manufacture a controlled substance. The other manufacturers are just no so stupid as to open only say their products are mj specific or that they use mj tissue samples to data for formulating their nutrients They do not want to have their products out of the stores. Fat Mikie would love it if GH, Botanicare, Humboldt or Canna publicly admitted to using mj tissue samples. Then he might have some legal argument when his products are pulled off of all or nearly all hydro store shelves but theirs are not. The guy is just a schemer manipulator and bull*hitter trying another angle. There is no logic to Fat Mikie's videos, arguments or opinions as they are as I said repeatedly just half truths and his accusations about the other manufacturers products are base less as his arguments and opinions and claims are based only upon tissue samples not nutrient reservoir chemistry and nutrient availability, or even the dilutions used by the nutrient users. Dumb ass uses an example of a supplement that is a high ppm. So what it it has 400 PMS of phosphorus if your diluting to to 4 50 ppm to replace that loss by buffering. The dud is just a chronically deceptive manipulator and bull*hitter. He is just a buffoon. Even his own lab people know him as a buffoon and repeatedly tell him not to say the things he says.

After all of Fat Mikie's' flagrant deceptive bull, complaints and false accusations about GH and others consider this. If you use AN three part series, For Bloom and Micro mixed you have 4-5-4 (ratio 0.8:1:0. for Veg and micro mixed you have 6-1-6 Ratio ratio (6:1:6). Now with GH you get 5-5-4 (1:1:0. and 7-1-7. (ratio 7:1:7) Wow I do not see those huge amounts of Phosphorus fat Mikie was talking about. Pretty near the same Dude.

Fat Mikie also trash talked others for their high Phosphorus Budding supplements mets but he sells Bud Blood that is 0-39-25 and Big Bud that is 1-17-38. Now look at GH's bud supplements Kool Bloom Liquid 0-10-10 or dry Kool Bloom 2-45-28 No Fat Mikie's products are no any better and his video is a joke. Wow Mikie sure pushs his Phosphorus the High Phosphorus Bud supplements regardless of his dum*ss video with all his flagrant bull*shitting.


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## 12268 (May 3, 2010)

All I can say is that I believe the guy who uses REAL WORDS...

The kind of guy who would rather read their information, as opposed to taking biased views from video doesn't seem to exist anymore..Sad but true, everyone seems to learn shit with videos..Post more than a paragraph in a forum and all of a sudden people "cant read the mumbo jumbo" cause its just so many words, that it overwhelms the ignorant and un-intelligent MASSES

Sorry I just call em how I see em..The world today is SAD

ps: im not sticking up for anyone or anything..just making an observation..and my observation seems RAMPANT on certain internet forums, moreso than others..


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## 12268 (May 3, 2010)

bman01 said:


> LMAO !!!! 12268 I just got a price to mix my own nutrients based on Fatmans formula and it works out to $23US to make up a 15 litres or both A and B. The company I used will sell all the dry ingredients in any quantities.



hi sorry didnt mean to jump down you the other day dude, I guess I took a crappy day out on someone else man..forgive me but PLEASE SHARE where you got those salts!! (if its allowed)


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## 12268 (May 3, 2010)

fatman there is SOOOO much info in this thread..Almost need a recap or revamp on the first post..there is fatmans aero formula (veg and bloom+micros-humic/fulvic), fatmans recirc/dwc(veg and bloom -humic/fulvic), Also the "lucas formula" on the first post, then the revised and dont forget now we have "fatmans hempy formula"...There may even be a few others??

Im sort of confused, I see where 2.5lb + 2.5lb of a+b makes so many gallons of x100 concentrate, how much of that concentrate to use per gallon in the res?? 1 teaspoon??

Also can you give your official recommendation on adding the humics and fulvics to either lucas or fatmans formula(s) (this is something I asked in pm but maybe thought deserved an answer here?)


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## chronicuser85 (May 3, 2010)

fucking crazy and very informative thread added to rep man


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## reeferMaster (May 3, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Dude he specifically show a chart for a mj specific nutrients and said it is all wrong and then referred to a magazine with an article written by Larry Brook of GH to emphasis that GH is wrong. He g as usuallis just being decptive by using a Urban Magazine to try to imply to people that GH is a producer of nutrients for genrral hydroponics when they are listed as producers of specilaity fertilizers and their product names even cleary show that. He did not state GH is for genrral growing. He clearly stated in the very beginning that the discussion is about nutrients for medical cannabis specifically not general crops. He then stated the tissue samples were samples of plants in the vegetative and flowering stages. He did not say flowering and budding stages of general horticultural products. He talks about partners saying he was stupid to make the video and they were right. By the way he is the founder and CEO with the majority interest in AN, some would more honestly say sole owner as the investors only have enough investment in the corporation so as to legally allow him to say he has investors. They have no control at all in any matters as he is the majority owner with complete control.
> 
> As far as not being able to take coarsely and inappropriately written guff from someone like you, that is a joke. I just find your language unacceptable as it is clearly against forum rules. I have been banned repeatedly just for insulting someone, and I did this without vulgarity and in appropriate language as you choose to use. You say that people do not like the site yet the number of members and visitors continues to grow. I receive many PM's daily and by reputation points continue to grow in number. People do not leave this forum because people are disturbed by my posted information but because of people like you who post ludicrous links and argue your self into corners due to your lack of hydroponic nutrient reservoir chemistry so resort to swearing and implying untruths.
> 
> ...


 

heres where ur wrong every thing he said u seem 2 twist it up and change what he says, ur acting like a little kid, sounds like u do all this 2 try and look cool and profestional u cant stop talking shit about some one thats made more money then u and already came up with the proper nutrient line, the video states that alll bloom booster are not nesserilly for cannibus i dont wana argue but ur being such a babie about this wow 5 stars..... come on people dont yall have something better 2 do then listen 2 this crap, if u knew how 2 grow marijuana u wouldnt need all this information wasting ur time reading all this crap when u can just use the right kind of nutrients 2 get the job done... u try 2 be so cool by writing so much and trying 2 think ur right 24/7, im not impressed... ingnore me plz since u make every thing a big deal, i will not be coming back here any way i didnt come 2 this thread 2 learn, i learnd u can be a real dick on the computer makes u feel tough i guess u even had 2 go 2 my profile 2 look at my rep and threads so u can make ur self look cooler and still talk shit, i dont really waste my time here 99% of my time im on here goes 2 researching information im not out 2 show off any way i dont need 2 post any thing ,im sure 99% of the time ur on here is 2 show off and make ur self look better then every one else w/e haha ur like a marijuana dork i hope every one reads this..... u know ur gunna go cry now..... wow ur so cool 2 bad people just didnt use thier common sense then u would get 0 hits people really dont need the information ur giving them its confuzing, some hydro growers dont even own a ph meter why would u need this bs?


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## fatman7574 (May 3, 2010)

Bla sa, bla sa blah child.


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## cannatari (May 3, 2010)

Good thread. +Sub'd.


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## fatman7574 (May 4, 2010)

Are you asking for a formula for recirculating or for growing in vermiculite and coco. The below are for indoor intensly lit Vermiculite or Coco grows. The Bloom is for 5 gallons of Part A and 5 gallons of Part B. The Veg is for 2.5 gallons of each of Part A and Part B. Yes the EC and therefore total salt weights per gallon is is lower in the Veg as the ppm is lower as it contains less calcium, magnesium and sulfur. With non absorbant media and a recirculating reservior the cak lcium, magnesium and sulfur need to be higher. You should not use full stremgth, but half to 3/4 strength.

Bloom 
ppm
Nitrogen 230
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 359
Magnesium 93
Calcium 184
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00 
Molybdenum 0.09

Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 121.8
Potassium Nitrate 44.3
Iron Chelate 13.50

Part B 
Potassium Nitrate B 44.3
MonoPotassium Phosphate 51.6
Magnesium Sulfate 125.4
Manganese Sulfate 2.689
Boric Acid / Solubor 3.675
Zinc Sulfate 2.914
Copper Sulfate .588
Ammonium Molybdate .024
*Volume of Stock Solutions 10 (5 gal Part A and 5 Gallons Part B) *
*Dilution Rate 100*
*EC 2.58*
*TDS 1806*
*pH 5.8 *
*Salt Weight 3105*

fatman's Veg _ Vermiculite

ppm

Nitrogen 207
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 300
Magnesium 45
Calcium 120
Sulfur 60
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.0
Molybdenum 0.09

Ounces

Part A
Calcium Nitrate 39.7
Potassium Nitrate 17.2
Ammonium Nitrate 9.2
Iron Chelate 6.75

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 17.2
MonoPotassium Phosphate 25.8
Magnesium Sulfate 30.5
Manganese Sulfate 1.345
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.838
Zinc Sulfate 1.457
Copper Sulfate .294
Ammonium Molybdate .012

*Volume of Stock Solutions 5 (2.5 Part A, 2.5 Gallons Part B)*
*Dilution Rate 100*
*pH 5.7*
*EC 1.8*
*Salt Weight 2288 (mg/L)*
*TDS 1246*


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## 12268 (May 4, 2010)

reeferMaster said:


> heres where ur wrong every thing he said u seem 2 twist it up and change what he says, ur acting like a little kid, sounds like u do all this 2 try and look cool and profestional u cant stop talking shit about some one thats made more money then u and already came up with the proper nutrient line, the video states that alll bloom booster are not nesserilly for cannibus i dont wana argue but ur being such a babie about this wow 5 stars..... come on people dont yall have something better 2 do then listen 2 this crap, if u knew how 2 grow marijuana u wouldnt need all this information wasting ur time reading all this crap when u can just use the right kind of nutrients 2 get the job done... u try 2 be so cool by writing so much and trying 2 think ur right 24/7, im not impressed... ingnore me plz since u make every thing a big deal, i will not be coming back here any way i didnt come 2 this thread 2 learn, i learnd u can be a real dick on the computer makes u feel tough i guess u even had 2 go 2 my profile 2 look at my rep and threads so u can make ur self look cooler and still talk shit, i dont really waste my time here 99% of my time im on here goes 2 researching information im not out 2 show off any way i dont need 2 post any thing ,im sure 99% of the time ur on here is 2 show off and make ur self look better then every one else w/e haha ur like a marijuana dork i hope every one reads this..... u know ur gunna go cry now..... wow ur so cool 2 bad people just didnt use thier common sense then u would get 0 hits people really dont need the information ur giving them its confuzing, some hydro growers dont even own a ph meter why would u need this bs?


can anyone count how many times you see the NUMBER 2 in this post?? Sorry its off topic, it just made me laugh


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## AeroTrek (May 4, 2010)

12268 said:


> can anyone count how many times you see the NUMBER 2 in this post?? Sorry its off topic, it just made me laugh


"2"..many times...lol


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## jberry (May 4, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> "2"..many times...lol


2 funny............


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## 12268 (May 4, 2010)

har


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## 12268 (May 4, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Crop King
> I have convinced a chemical supply house to make that available on eBay.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/25g-Ammonium-Molybdate-ACS-Grade-Pure_W0QQitemZ280439298699QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b7c1a8b


 not for long apparently , anyone else know where to get this stuff??

also, has anyone heard of "plantex csm+b" , it's a "micro mix" for planted aquariums, could we save a few bucks and utilize this? would it prove useful in the hydroponic world??


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## fatman7574 (May 5, 2010)

12268 said:


> not for long apparently , anyone else know where to get this stuff??
> 
> also, has anyone heard of "plantex csm+b" , it's a "micro mix" for planted aquariums, could we save a few bucks and utilize this? would it prove useful in the hydroponic world??


Ammonium Molybdate is 48% Molybdenum, Sodium Molybdate is 39.5% Molybdenum. Just use 18% more of the Sodium Molybdate than the Ammonium Molybdate called for. There are seveal weights sold on Ebay at this time, from two ounces for $4.50 to a pound at $30. Your only talking about needing a 10th of a gram per gallon of mixed 100X concentrate. Diluted this means about a 1000th of a gram per gallon of diluted nutrients. Not a lot of salt in that. There are more sodium salts in nearly all fertilizers than that as trace contaminants. Organic nutrients have huge amounts of sodium.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=molybdate&_sacat=0&_odkw=sodium+molybdate&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313


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## fatman7574 (May 5, 2010)

bman01 said:


> LMAO !!!! 12268 I just got a price to mix my own nutrients based on Fatmans formula and it works out to $23US to make up a 15 litres or both A and B. The company I used will sell all the dry ingredients in any quantities.


bman01 I can't send you a PM back until you empty up some space in your PM storage. IE delete somesent or received messages.


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## 12268 (May 5, 2010)

whats your opinion on plantex csm+b fatman? could i utilize this if i get some iron chelate to beef it up a little?

Regular CSM / CSM+B
Fe 7.0% 6.53%
Mn 2.0% 1.87%
Mg 1.5% 1.40%
Zn 0.4% 0.37%
Cu 0.1% 0.09%
Mo 0.05% 0.05%
B 0% 1.18%

it would be so much cheaper I think if we could find a premixed micro


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## fatman7574 (May 5, 2010)

12268 said:


> whats your opinion on plantex csm+b fatman? could i utilize this if i get some iron chelate to beef it up a little?
> 
> Regular CSM / CSM+B
> Fe 7.0% 6.53%
> ...


That translates to in ppm to 100 times that shown in percentages IE:
Fe 7.0% 6.53% 653 ppm
Mn 2.0% 1.87% 187 ppm
Mg 1.5% 1.40% 140 ppm
Zn 0.4% 0.37% 370 ppm
Cu 0.1% 0.09% 90 ppm
Mo 0.05% 0.05% 50 ppm
B 0% 1.18% 118 ppm

That is about 120 times the strength needed which is fine because you can dilute it. The mg (magnesium you can ignore as we use a 4 to 6 times the diluted amounts so it would just mean we would also use the magnesium suflate in our regular mix also. Copper would right after dilution. Diluted the Boron would be 2 times that needed but acceptable.The molybdenum would even diluted be at 5 times that normally use by mj. I have never heard of anyone experiencing difficulties from too much moly from just 5 times normal levels. Yes diluted the Iron would be low, however only during the peak of budding during the highets pH variations might you need more. The problem with iron chelate is no one tends to sell it in small amounts. 5 pounds at $40 is about average. As long as your reservoir is changed at least once during budding and you stay on top of adjusting your pH it would very likely be enough iron when diluted by 120. If you do not keep your pH within the range of 5.5 to 5.8 you will loose a lot to precipitation though and see physical signs of defficiency. Overall I would use the formula with the Boron (CSM+B). I would not dilute any less than 120 to 1. You do not mention is it sold as a liquid or granular?


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## surphin (May 5, 2010)

+ rep fatman. Just read this whole thread and there's a ton of good info. Thank you fatman for sharing your knowledge.


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## 12268 (May 5, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> That translates to in ppm to 100 times that shown in percentages IE:
> Fe 7.0% 6.53% 653 ppm
> Mn 2.0% 1.87% 187 ppm
> Mg 1.5% 1.40% 140 ppm
> ...


 awesome! this is great news!! as far as I know its dry (granular) it (along with everything else we need) can be found at aquariumfertilizer(.com) (6 dollar flat rate ship, and by the pound) or greenleafaquariums(.com) (this one, I think..had more stuff than the other)

this is great news though, we can cut out buying single bulk micro..and just buy the plantex csm+b, then we just need to buy the macros!!

EDIT: priced at a modest 72$ shipped..for 1 lb "micro mix" (plantex csm+b), 5 lb calcium nitrate, 5lb monopotassium phosphate, 1lb potassium nitrate.. all that for 72 bucks shipped, should set us up for quite a while


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## fatman7574 (May 5, 2010)

That is enough micro mix for about 20 gallons of 100x concentrate and 5 gallons of the two part depending on which one or type your mixing. Either way it means with shipping included your price will be only 14 dollars a gallon at a maximum. You will have left overs also so the follow up batches therefore will be even cheaper. If you decide to use a Flora Nova type formula for young clones and seedlings Humic C and Fulvic acids can be bought cheaply. Plus kelp extract and even rooting auxins for making cloning solutions etc for cloning. http://www.super-grow.biz/FulvicAcid.jsp Add cellulose to the cloning solution and you have cloning gel. Cellulose is just made from wood fibers. It is sold cheaply on ebay as a powder.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=powdered+cellulose&_sacat=0&_odkw=cellulose&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313

There really is no reason to pay the ridiculous costs charged by AN, GH, or others.


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## 12268 (May 8, 2010)

WHY IS THIS NOT STICKY?

im bumping cause it doesnt deserve to get buried


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## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

Discrimination maybe?


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## NLXSK1 (May 9, 2010)

Hey Fatman, great info! Has my head spinning though.

I am a new grower starting out with alot of the common problems discussed on this forum. I was not having any luck with rockwool due either to PH or over watering. I have plants that I started in early March in rockwool that are just now getting to the size of some plants I put into rapid rooters in April.

I have a closed system with A/C and CO2 and am running 1000 watt lights. I can make the temperature what I want it to be and humidity is in a good range ATM. I switched to hydroton as a medium after problems with the rockwool and fytocell materials. I would like to get a handle on the rockwool germination because I really dont want the organic rooters in the hydro system. Right now I am just trying to learn but ultimately I will be looking at doing a SOG lollipop style of continual grow.

The plants are going to be put into flower when they are ready (about 12" high) within a week or so. Based on this thread I went and bought some GH nutrients in preparation to use them for bloom based on your 2 part micro - 1 part bloom formula.

How does the CO2 affect nutrient uptake and do you alter your fertilizer accordingly?


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## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

CO2 used in conjunction with intense lighting, low humidity and high temps allows for faster growth and higher yields. As all parameter are increased yes nutrient up take will increase. The nutrient ratios will remain the same. The nitrogen in GH is only about 5% ammonium so your likey to have more problems with a high pH during budding then low pH. This means using pH down. This will supply extra Phosphorus and both a nitrate ion and a hydrated hydronium ion H3O2 which quickly becomes a H+ proton. This means it alledgedly replaces the extra nitrate previously taken up by the plant plus helps to restore the pH. If it was only that easy. Your calcium, magneisum and iron should be fine unless you experience declining pH. You will possibly have a bit of a nitrogen shortage but regular water changes and using pH down from Botanicare will prevent this. Botanicare uses nitric acid and phosphoric acide both in their pH down. Many companies just provide Phosphoric acid. Nitric acid is much more dangerous in its undiluted form than Phosphoric acid. Nitric acid cam only be shipped legally by truck freight and rail.

Basically with all other things being available at high levels the CO2 allows them to be used in those larger amounts. This includes nutrients. Expect about a 1/3 faster use of nutrients with CO2 supplementation. Keep your humidity down around 35% tops. There really is not a ceiling on temps of the nutrient weater or ambient air as long as you can supply water often enough. I would with high temps recommend a level of at least 0.5 ppm of chlorine be present in your nutrient water at all times.


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## NLXSK1 (May 9, 2010)

I am currently using 29% H202 @ 1.72 ml / litre every 3-4 days... Do you think this will not work for the sanitation?


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## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

A little more dangerously then Chlorine, but yes it will work. With H2O2 being a stronger oxidant (1.3 times as much oxidation ability) it tends to more often cause oxidation of the nutrient solutions iron. If you see a reddish brown slime forming on the walls of your resrvoir thatis your chelated iron. Just amke a resrvoir cahange am nd use a smaller does of H2O2. The iron should be well enough protected by the chelate but that varies depending upon dosage of the H2O2, pH and your level of aeration. Realise also that H2O2 has no residual effect so it provides no protection between doses. It is also more expensive.


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## NLXSK1 (May 9, 2010)

About a decade ago I used to clean and repair pools in the Phoenix area. I can attest to chlorine keeping the water perfect in sweltering conditions... (ER: pool water in the 90's 24 hours a day).

If you dont think chlorine will harm the plants at .5 = 1/2 ppm level I may switch to that...

How would you measure enough to dose a 30 or 40 gallon tank with .5 ppm?

Doing a little checking reveals that 1/2 tablespoon of chlorinating liquid (12%) will raise 100 gallons 2 parts per million.

If I translate that right I should add 1 milliliter of chlorine to a 40 gallon tank and then test periodically.


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## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

0.5 drops per gallon for 0.5 ppm. A teaspoon equal 76 drops. So 1/4 teaspoon is 19 drops. 19 drops is good for 76 gallons at 0.5 ppm. That means dilute some bleach to make additions easier. Roughly go with diluting the bleach at a 1 to 32 ratio and then a teaspoon per every 10 gallons of that diluted chlorine would be good for 0.5 ppm in your reservoir. I would add it at least once dail as it will dissipate if the water is aerated. Your 12% chlorine is about double straenth. Most regular chlorox (unscented is jsut below 6%). If using 12% you would need to dilute twice as much. Using Reguar chlorox you would only be adding 5 drops per 10 gallons for 0.5 ppm, or 2.5 drops per 10 gallonsfor the 12% solution.

Or simply put.
Or 15.2 drops equals approx 1 ml. So for a dose of 0.5 ppm use 1.25 ml per gallon if using Chlorox and half that amount if using a 12% Chlorine solution.


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## 12268 (May 10, 2010)

i think discrimination is right. no other reason


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## 12268 (May 11, 2010)

bump to the top WHERE IT SHOULD BE
(although i get the feeling, we will get told this is in the wrong section and beongs in nutrients section?)


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## fatman7574 (May 11, 2010)

12268 said:


> bump to the top WHERE IT SHOULD BE
> (although i get the feeling, we will get told this is in the wrong section and beongs in nutrients section?)


That is a stupid place for a thread that is in=dividual to hydroponics. I usually tor totally avoid all other nutrient discussions but Hydroponics. Has a nutrient dicussion going in the nutrient section for a while b=ut all the dirt framers would just come there to argue that their out door soil and water soluble nutrients would work as well or better than hydro nutrients for indoor hydro. Finally got tired of Ben and left him to a thread that died as I left it. He inherited a ghost thread. Appropriate.


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## cannatari (May 11, 2010)

Hey fatman, please take a look at the formula I designed based on your great info in this thread. It is a 2:2:1 ratio of Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt, Foliage-Pro and Mag-Pro. The final N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S at 1300ppm is 269-120-239-81-55-31, hardwater analysis included. I'm not able to hit the numbers as well as I'd like to so I'd be honored if you can tell me what kind of problems you might forsee my plants having with using it. Also, what is your opinion of using supplemental silicon. Thanks a bunch!
P.S. I'm using it at 700-800 ppm @ .7 conversion in my reservoir.


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## fatman7574 (May 11, 2010)

It wil all come down to the matter of your pH. Dyna-gro uses an extremely high amount of ammonium nitrogen in its formulations Baout 32% or more of its total nitrogen. The general recomendtation if for less than 15% as ammonium nitrogen. Most mj specific formultions re designed for recirculation resrvoirs so are down around 3% to 6%. With out door grows the higher percentage seems to matter little as typicaly dolomite lime is added to the soil. In indoor grows it tends to lower the pH enough that most of the calcium , magnesium and iron become unavailable to the plants due their be used up as buffers. This usually always makes it necessary to add Botainicare CalMag Plus during budding.


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## cannatari (May 11, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> It wil all come down to the matter of your pH. Dyna-gro uses an extremely high amount of ammonium nitrogen in its formulations Baout 32% or more of its total nitrogen. The general recomendtation if for less than 15% as ammonium nitrogen. Most mj specific formultions re designed for recirculation resrvoirs so are down around 3% to 6%. With out door grows the higher percentage seems to matter little as typicaly dolomite lime is added to the soil. In indoor grows it tends to lower the pH enough that most of the calcium , magnesium and iron become unavailable to the plants due their be used up as buffers. This usually always makes it necessary to add Botainicare CalMag Plus during budding.


 I see how the CalMag will benefit me. Thanks for the advice fatman.


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## mpdegn (May 12, 2010)

Would this be an appropriate shopping cart for your Bloom-Micro formulation?


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## fatman7574 (May 12, 2010)

Yes, that is a listing from Crop King. They sell premixed trace elements.


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## cannatari (May 12, 2010)

Fatman, you were 100% correct. The high percentage of NH4 took only 4 days to cause Potassium to get locked out in my nutrient solution. Nice one dude.


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## NLXSK1 (May 15, 2010)

Hey Fatman,

I have been having algae issues in my tank setup for flood and drain. I have dumped about 3 tanks cleaned and refilled with RO water + nutes + H202 only to have the algae come back within a few days.

I have been experimenting with chlorine for a few days and am getting confusing results.

I used an eye dropper to add chlorine to a 2 gallon bucket of RO water and ended up putting 60 drops to get the level to where I could read .5 ppm with a cheap pool test kit.

I then added 60 ml to a 30 gallon tank resulting in a reading of well over 50ppm chlorine (huge overkill) - I am going to dump this tank without using it.

So, I added only 5ml to another 30 gallon RO tank resulting in a reading of maybe 2-4ppm. I dumped 1/2 of that tank and re-filled with RO and had a reading somewhere between .5 and 1 (total color guestimate). I had not adjusted the PH of the tank but when I began doing that the chlorine level dropped. I used the water to flush my plants (I have been chasing a tank algae problem) and the water came out slightly cloudy. After the plants had been flushed and the resivoir tested there was still no reading from a blue lab truncheon ppm meter and the chlorine test results didnt show any chlorine left. 

I added nutes and fed regularly last night and this morning. I added 1 ml of chlorine to the tank and could get no reading. I added a 2nd ml of chlorine to the tank and still am getting no reading. 

So, I am really confused about the readings and would like some guidance. Here are some of the things I think could be affecting the readings/results.

Low PH - I am not sure if this cheap pool test kit will properly show chlorine level at 5.5-6.0 PH

Free Chlorine - Because I am having tank algae problems I am wondering if there is not enough free chlorine in the water and this may be affecting the readings.

Chlorine exhausted - When I flushed the plants I may have flushed enough algae to use up the available chlorine in the water (although I should have seen a reading this morning after adding chlorine if this was true unless I didnt kill all of it).

Do you have any suggestions about what other tests or experiments I should do to understand what is going on here?


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## fatman7574 (May 15, 2010)

Let me make a few corrections. I think I confused things, or made them confusing some whare in my prevoiys disussion about diluting the Chlorox. *If using full strength clorox that is approx 5.5 to 6.0 strength you need to add 4 drops per gallon to provide 2 ppm of chlorine*. So basically 1/4 teaspons for each 5 gallons. *If you chlorox is 12% then 1/4 teaspoon per every 10 gallons of water.* After the first two days ot three drop down to 0.5 ppm per day. That means a 1/4 teaspon per each 20 gallons of a 5 to 6% solution and half that for a 12% solutions. I know several people who have recently used some very large doses of chlorine and there palnts handled it well. They both added about 1 teaspoon per gallon to their reservoirs for several days in a row.


When You add chlorine to water you end up with two chlorines; hypochlorous acid HOCL and OCl-. At a pH of arounf 5.5 over 95% of the chlorine will be in the form of HOCL. With a swimming pool the pH is kept high at 7.2 to 7.6. At 7.2 the percentages of HOCL and OCl- are an equal 50%. At a pH of 7.6 OCl- is about 75%. It is hard telling what the pH of either of your solutions were or even what the pool test kit is supposed to detect. All free chlorine, just OCL- or HOCl? Ideally with well aerated RO water the pH would be 7.0 so the chlorine woud be a 50% , 50% mix. If you add that same chlorine to a reservoir containing nutrients the chlorine will be mainly HOCL-. Depending on the amount of dead organics the level of readale chlorine will vary. The more dead organics the more chlorine will be used to immediattely oxidize the dead organics and the lower amount of free chlorine that a test kit will indicate.


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## NLXSK1 (May 15, 2010)

From previous experience the pool kits test only free chlorine. How high a PPM will harm the plants?

And yes, the RO water tests at less than 50ppm and is 7.0.


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## fatman7574 (May 15, 2010)

Just throw in an airstone and within a few days it will be down to zero. I have seen mj growing in water with a ppm of almost 100. Figure the guys that dumped in a teaspoon per gallon were dumping in 75 drops and ever 2 drp ops is a ppm. That means they dumped in enough to add 36 ppm per day. Im sure that amount oxidized all the dead roots and the anerobic bacteria. Their plants recovered enough from root rot to go another 3 or 4 weeks to finish budding. There is at least one other person who used 1 teaspoon per f gallon in his reservoir that did so in just the last week or so, for at laest a few days in a row. Last I heard the plants are doing fine.


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## NLXSK1 (May 15, 2010)

I am willing to bet that the PH is screwing up the reading on the cheap pool test kit. It was only designed to test water between 6.8 & 8.2.

Good info on the toxicity, I was shocked to find out my water readings were 2-4PPM out of the tap... More shocked to find the PPM between 800-900. Hence the RO system.

I will just add 2ml per day for a while and if algae shows up increase that as necessary in a 30 gallon tank. That is 30 drops for 30 gallons should be about 1 ppm. No need to shock them ;]


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## fatman7574 (May 15, 2010)

Tap water at anywhere between 0.5 and 4 ppm is normal. Usually it is about 4 ppm near yhe water treatment plants or very near the mail distric bution lines and nearer 0.5 ppm (the minimum desireable) at the furthest points from the water treatment plant. They usually test the water at the employees bath room at the treatment plant (high reading) and once a month test at some point near the end of their water lines (low reading).


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## csharper (May 15, 2010)

Hi fatman, a few questions to further the discussion:

0.) You say to change the res every week, but it stands to reason that there is a holy grail nutrient ratio:reservoir sizelant volume which could alleviate this for 90ish days. As in the plants eat pretty much exactly what you put in... Or do you think it is impossible to have a "stable" and "perfect feed ratio" solution?

1.) Is it 3:1:2 n2o5:k20 or 3:1:2 npk? Isn't this a ratio for soil?

2.) I ask because your formulas are ~3:1:3 npk - about which:
a.) 1P really needed for hydro? Is this much P really used by cannabis?
b.) 2->3K why?
c.) Or are these numbers because of the effects on the solution, not for the plant's consumption?

3.) Your opinion of "msu magic" orchid pure water mix (greencare, knockoffs) for recirculating hydro? What am I overlooking and why does nobody use this for cannabis?

At about your N level:

Nitrogen N Total 261.6
Phosphorus P 25.9
Potassium K 246.7
Magnesium Mg 39.6
Sulfur S 1.8
Calcium Ca 158.5
Iron Fe 3.56671
Boron B 0.39630
Manganese Mn 1.78336
Zinc Zn 0.79260
Molybdenum Mo 0.39630
Copper Cu 0.79260

Components: boric acid, calcium nitrate, copper sulfate, iron EDTA, magnesium nitrate, manganese sulfate, potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, sodium molybdate, zinc sulfate.

Nitrogen (Nitrate 12.5%)
(Ammoniacal 0.7%) 13.00%
Phosphorus (as P2O5) 3.00%
Potassium (as K2O) 15.00%
Calcium 8.00%
Magnesium 2.00%
Iron 0.18%
Manganese 0.09%
Sulfur 0.09%
Zinc 0.04%
Copper 0.04%
Boron 0.02%
Molybdenum 0.02%

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAFinal.pdf from http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm
(or is this "just for orchids")

4.) Relating to above formula, is there anything to be said for moderation in the micros, especially in a recirculating reservoir where this forumula could potentially eliminate the possibility of buildups?

5.) GH Maxigro, this stuff is your formula/ratio for all intents and purposes, right? What is wrong with this stuff other than price and dyes and 15% of N as ammonium?

At Your N level:
Nitrogen N Total 264.2
Phosphorus P 57.6
Potassium K 307.0
Magnesium Mg 52.8
Sulfur S 79.3
Calcium Ca 158.5
Iron Fe 3.17041
Boron B 0.00000
Manganese Mn 1.32100

http://generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/product_labels/maxigro_1.5lb.pdf

6.) quoting you: "the actual recommended calcium to nitrogen ratio for MJ is 0.8-1", source please?

7.) And yet, many or all of your formulas have more Ca than N, almost ratio in reverse? And you complained of too much sulfur.. So why not add magnesium nitrate and lower calcium nitrate and epsom? Curious, help me learn.


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## fatman7574 (May 16, 2010)

csharper said:


> Hi fatman, a few questions to further the discussion:
> 
> 0.) You say to change the res every week, but it stands to reason that there is a holy grail nutrient ratio:reservoir sizelant volume which could alleviate this for 90ish days. Doesn't and can't exist. As in the plants eat pretty much exactly what you put in... Not really that simple. Lots of buffering going on due to constant pH changes, continula changes in water dissolved CO2 and temperatures. Yet alone plants do not reallt take up slats and metals in the ratios they use them, store them or incorporate them into their tissues. Or do you think it is impossible to have a "stable" and "perfect feed ratio" solution? Impossible pretty much covers it. My self I only grow drain to waste, but unless you mix your own nutrients or buy preweighedsak lts that couldget exopnsive especially if ignorantly buying and using AN. A recirculatory reservoir is the bottom end production practice of commercial green house operators with a 50% to 100% mark up, it is sad it is the most commonly used practice by growers of that can have marks up of 5000% or more. Sad really.
> 
> ...


fatman Bloom Drain to Waste

Nitrogen 400
Phosphorus 100
Potassium 449
Magnesium 50
Calcium 125
Sulfur 66
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A
Calcium Nitrate 8.3
Potassium Nitrate 7.6
Ammonium Nitrate 4.4
Iron Chelate 1.35

Part B
Potassium Nitrate 7.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate .1
Magnesium Sulfate 6.7
MonoAmmonium Phosphate 6.0
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .368
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate .059
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.37
TDS 1650 
Salt weight 3244 mg/L 

Yes, There is a high percentage of ammonum nitrogen in the formulation. It matters not though because the nutrient is drain to waste so it matters not what the pH is of the nutrient water is that is being discard. It will not affect the reservoir as it does not drain bachk to the resrvoir.


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## Black Thumb (May 17, 2010)

ammonium molybdate, cannot find it  
anyone have any links ?

Thanks


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## fatman7574 (May 17, 2010)

Sodium molybdtae will work fine if you just add 20% more by weight. It is easier to find and cheaper. Some people freak out when the see sodium. I would make 300 gallons diluted out of each gallon so 600 gallons. That is only about 0.2 ppm of sodium. http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=sodium+molybdate&_sacat=See-All-Categories


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## Black Thumb (May 18, 2010)

Hey fatman Would you be able to post a revised formula replacing the ammonium molydbate with the sodium molydbate.

Some of your ingredients are .002 or .059 are these micro grams?
Will i need to purchase a scale that can measure lower then a gram ?

Thanks for your time and knowledge!


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## Black Thumb (May 18, 2010)

Got another question do you reccomend adding supplements or hormones,additives,stimulants,enzymes or someting to the final batch or seperately for greater results ?

If so are there any specifically you might reccomend ?


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## fatman7574 (May 18, 2010)

.002 was a mistake, it is suppose to be 0.013 and those measurements are in ounces not grams. Multiply each number by 28.35 for a measurement in grams. ie 0.013 oumces equals (0.013 * 28.35) = 0.369 or 369 milligrams. Commonly a metric scale will weight to 0.1 or 0.01 or larger. So 0.4 or 0.37 is close enough. Even using a gram scale for that smallest , measurement will be fine. Just measure a gram and use about half of the gram. All the other measurement are larger than a gram. There is ammonium molybdate on ebay it is just under another name. Many chemicals are often litsed listed under several different names. 
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=Molybdic+acid&_sacat=See-All-Categories


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## fatman7574 (May 18, 2010)

Black Thumb said:


> Got another question do you reccomend adding supplements or hormones,additives,stimulants,enzymes or someting to the final batch or seperately for greater results ?
> 
> If so are there any specifically you might reccomend ?


 nothing really


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## krunchbubble (May 18, 2010)

fatman7574, i need to give you my utmost respect, your a definitely a nutrient god. thanks for sharing your knowledge!

if i decided to not make my own nutrient just yet, what available nutrient line would you recommend for a RDWC system in bloom? i currently use house and garden, but i would like your opinion. thank you for your time!


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## jberry (May 18, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> nothing really


Is this because you don't believe that they are beneficial? or because it is harder to find target ppm's for the non-plant food ingredients? Too expensive? Why only the bare minimum? 

No disrespect for your methods... just curious what your thoughts are on the subject.


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## krunchbubble (May 18, 2010)

krunchbubble said:


> fatman7574, i need to give you my utmost respect, your a definitely a nutrient god. thanks for sharing your knowledge!
> 
> if i decided to not make my own nutrient just yet, what available nutrient line would you recommend for a RDWC system in bloom? i currently use house and garden, but i would like your opinion. thank you for your time!



found the answer..........


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## pikes peak 69 (May 22, 2010)

Hello Fatty,

I am interested in mixing my own nutes and just finished reading this whole thread. You mention software to do calculations, do you have a recommendation of which software is OK for a newbie nute mixer?
I understand very basic how to calculate but am always looking for more tutorials on it. If you have a basic formula that might help also.
Thanks in advance,
pp69


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## fatman7574 (May 23, 2010)

pikes peak 69 said:


> Hello Fatty,
> 
> I am interested in mixing my own nutes and just finished reading this whole thread. You mention software to do calculations, do you have a recommendation of which software is OK for a newbie nute mixer?
> I understand very basic how to calculate but am always looking for more tutorials on it. If you have a basic formula that might help also.
> ...


Fatman not fatty. Thank you.

For newbies it is usually to just copy an existing forn formula for a retailed mj specific nutrients series. Nearly all the guaranteed analysis reports for all the chemically based mj specific formulations sold in the U.S. are obtainable. These are just plugged into the software packages usually. there are some formulations that require that the person have enough understanding of the way they are formulated and how to manipulate the software to spit out the proper data. It is really not a newbie level thing. the analysis just gives end results not how those results were obtained. Some mj specific manufacturers such as AN specifically formulate their nutrients in such a way to make them more difficult for the amateur or newbie to just reproduce with a software package or Excel Spread sheet programs. They will spit out close approximations however that work every bit as well. The plants really do not care about slight differences. IE the plants really f do not care if the NPK ratios is 2.1:1:3 or 2.2:1.1:3. Such small differences matter not all all. The soft ware packages and even the Excel y type spread sheets posted by , mj growers are set up for mixing in common manners where there is no trickery or hiding as done by the mj specific manufacturers to try to maintain their uniqueness. Really it is just their scams to make big profits by trying to make it appear it is as difficult as rocket science to formulate and mix nutrients. the difficulty is just figuring out their chemistry manipulations versus actual formulation improvements. 99% of the time it is just manipulation to "protect" their interests.

What brand or type formulation do you want to copy or do you want a custom mix based upon your water source if not using RO water. I do not make equivalents of organic supplemented formulations usually. Especially ones like GH FloraNova grow or Bloom. It is simpler, wiser and much more practical to just mix FloraMicro, FloraBloom,and FloraGrow and just add Humic acids, and fulvic acids as a supplement. the FloraNova line is a substandard line that is really just a marketing scam not a nutrient improvement.

So please be more specific about what type of nutrient recipe you want.

Below is a copy of one of my previous posts I put up about actually formulating a recipe by pencil and paper. It is just a partial tutorial so as to show what is involve so as to show why software is more commonly used. sometimes it is actually easier to do the formulation by hand when copying some formulas like the mj specific manufactures do in there game playing to try to "protect their interests." IE if their formulation can not be readily reproduced by software it is not an improved formulation, it is simply a change in a standard formulations so as to "protect their interests." They simply called it a new name and say it is special and new. 

*Nutrient Formulations through Mental Masturbation*.
Materials used to supply nutrients for production are chosen based on several factors including cost per unit of nutrients, solubility in water, ability to supply multiple nutrients, freedom from contaminants, and ease of handling. The most commonly used fertilizer materials for for aeroponics/hydroponics are listed in Table1. These materials are mostly used to formulate the liquid fertilizer nutrient solutions. Examples of calculations to formulate nutrient solutions are presented later, and conversion values for these calculations are presented in Table 2.
Table 1. 
Sources of nutrients used to formulate various nutrient solutions for greenhouse vegetables.






 





Pre-mixed fertilizer materials are very popular with many growers because they are easy to use. However, they are relatively expensive compared to individual ingredients, and the premixed materials leave little room for making changes in concentrations of individual nutrients. Pre-mixed fertilizers most often supply the P, Mg, S, and micronutrients, and part of the N. They also may supply part or all of the K.
Pre-mixed fertilizers should be purchased from a reputable source that can supply high-quality materials. There is no need to be concerned with the brand names or whether or not the material is a "cannibus special" or a "lettuce special." Often, these are simply brand names and really do not mean anything as far as the plant is concerned. For example, cannibus probably will grow as well on a 32-18-30 "cannibus special" as on a generic 30-16-32. They are too close for one to have superiority over the other.
*Formulating and Mixing Stock Nutrient Solutions*

Nutrient solutions are only as good as the quality of the ingredients and the time put into the formulations. Fertilizer materials should be of high quality and purchased from a reputable source. If the grower is using mixed fertilizer, it is important to make sure the fertilizer blend has a tag that shows the analysis of the fertilizer, the sources used, and the company's name.
An accurate set of scales must be used to weigh out each material because different materials have different densities. Measuring cups are not an acurate form of measurement for preparing nutrient formulations.
When mixing the fertilizer solutions, hot water will speed up the time for dissolution of the fertilizer. For small batches, mechanical stirring is satisfactory. For large batches, it might be better to invest in an electrical agitator or make up one from an old variable speed drill and a paddle welded onto a long-shank bit.
It is best to work in small batches (volumes), mixing them first, and then dumping each into a larger stock tank. For most small grow operations operations (1 to 2 rooms), stock tanks of 5 to 10 gallons are satisfactory, however 25 to 5o gallon are not uncommon. Replenishment of stock tanks for perlite or rockwool will depend on stage of growth and growth rate of the crop, and will vary from a few days to once every 2 weeks, depending on tank size. In aeroponic systems, replacement is more regular throughout the grow. 
In most grow systems, at least two stock tanks (bottles) are needed. This is because certain fertilizer sources when mixed together in concentrated form will lead to insoluble precipitates. The most common of these are calcium phosphate (from mixing calcium nitrate and phosphorus materials) and calcium sulfate (from mixing calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate). Most growing situations can get by with two stocks, one contains calcium nitrate, and iron chelate, and the other contains the phosphorus source, magnesium sulfate, micronutrients, and the potassium nitrate as well.
Once the small batches are added to the stock, the total volume of the stock tank is brought to the desired level and stirred. After the stocks have settled for a while (few hours), the solution will become clear but a sludge will often form in the bottom of the tanks. This sludge is from certain additives in some fertilizer materials to prevent caking and dust. These materials are not soluble and will settle to the bottom of the tank. Therefore the stock tanks will need to be rinsed periodically to remove this sludge. This problem can be alleviated by using technical grade fertilizer salts or clear (decanted) fertilizer solutions, such as liquid calcium nitrate.
Accurate calculations of the amounts of fertilizer materials to dissolve to achieve the desired concentrations of individual nutrients in the final growth nutrient solution are critical to the success of a fertilizer program

*Accurate records on electrical conductivity, pH, and amounts of nutrient solution applied are important for efficient fertilizer management.*​ 
Using pre-mixed materials is satisfactory for the beginner, but the experienced grower will find that he can be more efficient, thrifty, and knowledgeable about his crop if he learns to calculate his own formulations. The calculations are not difficult and, once completed, do not require re-working very often. To properly calculate the nutrient concentrations, the volume of the stock and sump tanks, the analysis of the fertilizer (Table1.), and a few equivalences (Table 2) , must be known.
The following two examples are for a final nutrient solution applied to the plants that contains 150 ppm Ca, 150 ppm N, and 150 ppm K. The following calculations are used to illustrate a method to derive the amounts of the various fertilizer materials (potassium nitrate (KNO3), calcium nitrate (Ca(NO3)2), and potassium sulfate (K2SO4) to be used to make up the desired final nutrient solution that is applied to the plants. A 5-gallon stock tank will be used.
1. Starting with Calcium nitrate, since that will be the only fertilizer source containing Ca:Using Table 1 as refr erence for chemical ppm.
150 ppm Ca = (150 mg Ca) per 1 L nutr. soln
[(150 mg Ca) per 1 L nutr. soln]. ÷ 19% Ca in Ca(NO3)2 = (790 mg Ca (NO3)2) per 1 L nutr. soln.
[(790 mg Ca (NO3)2) per 1 L nutr. soln] x 100 (dilution factor) = 79000 mg Ca (NO3)2) per 1 L stock
[(79000 mg Ca(NO3)2) per 1 L stock] ÷ 1000 mg per g = (79 gr Ca (NO3)2) per 1 L stock
[(78.9 g Ca (NO3)2) per 1 L stock)] ÷ 454 g per lb = (0.174 lb Ca (NO3)2) per 1 L stock)
[(0.174 lb Ca (NO3)2) per 1 L stock)] x 3.78 L per gal = (0.66 lb Ca (NO3)2) per 1 gal stock)
[(0.66 lb Ca (NO3)2) per 1 gal stock)] x 5 gal in tank = 3.30 lb Ca (NO3)2
3.30 lb Ca (NO3)2 to weigh out and dissolve in 5-gal stock.
Note: Some Ca might be supplied from the tap or RO water and this should be determined by a water analysis. The amount of tap or RO water Ca can be subtracted from the 150 ppm desired level so that less Ca needs to be derived from Ca(NO3)2. If this is the case, then the lost N will need to be made up from another N source such as ammonium nitrate. Brrr I hate to use much ammonium nitrate though.
Ca(NO3)2 also supplies N since 15.5% of Ca(NO3)2 is N. Therefore, if 3.30 lb Ca(NO3)2 is dissolved in the stock tank, the following is also provided:
[(3.30 lb Ca(NO3)2) per 5 gal stock] x [(454000 mg per lb) per 3.78 L per gal] = (1498220 mg Ca (NO3)2) per 18.9 L stock
[(1489200 mg Ca (NO3)2) per 18.9 L stock] x 15.5% N in Ca (NO3)2 = (232221 mg N) per 18.9 L stock
(232221 mg N) per 18.9 L = 12287 ppm N in the stock
12287 ppm N ÷ 100 (dilution factor = 123 ppm N in the final nutrient solution.
Since 150 ppm N is desired, an additional 27 ppm N from another source such as KNO3 is needed.
2. Using KNO3 (13% N and 44% K2O), and needing 27.5 ppm N.
27 ppm N = (27 mg N) per 1 L nutr. soln
[(27 mg Ca) per 1 L nutr. soln]. ÷ 13% N in KNO3= 208 mg KNO3 per 1 L nutr. soln.
[(208 mg KNO3 ) per 1 L nutr. soln] x 100 (dilution factor) =20800 mg KNO3 per 1 L stock
[(20800 mg KNO3) per 1 L stock] ÷ 1000 mg per g = (20.8 g KNO3 per 1 L stock
[(20.8 g KNO3 ) per 1 L stock)] ÷ 454 g per lb = (0.046 lb KNO3 per 1 L stock)
[(0.046 lb KNO3) per 1 L stock)] x 3.78 L per gal = (0.17 lb KNO3) per 1 gal stock)
[(0.17 lb KNO3) per 1 gal stock)] x 5 gal in tank = 0.87 lb KNO3
0.87 lb KNO3 to weigh out and dissolve in 5-gal stock.
KNO3 also supplies K since it is 44% K2O. K is expressed as K2O and to convert from K2O to K, multiply by 0.83. 
If 0.87 lb of KNO3 is added then: 0.87 lb x 44% K2O in KNO3 x 0.83 = 0.32 lb K in 5 gal stock.
This 0.87 lb of KNO3 supplies 79 ppm K in final nutrient solution.
(0.32 lb K in 5 gal stock) per 5 gallons = 0.06 lb K per gal stock
0.06 lb K per gallon stock / 3.78 L per gallon = 0.016 lb K per liter
0.016 lb K per 1 liter stock x 454 g per pound = 7.26 g K per liter stock
7.26 g K per liter stock x 1000 mg per g = 7260 mg K per 1 L stock
7260 mg K per L stock / 100 (dilution Factor) = 72.64 mg per 1 L stock
72.64 mg per 1 L stock = 72.64 mg K = 73 ppm
This 0.87 lb of KNO3 supplies 73 ppm K in final nutrient solution. 
Since 150 ppm K is needed in the final solution and 60 ppm K is coming from KN03, the difference (77 ppm) can be made up from K2SO4 which is 50% K2O (table 1).
77 ppm K = (77 mg K) per 1 L nutr. soln.
[(77 mg K) per 1 L nutr. soln.] ÷ 0.83 = (85.5 mg K2O) per 1 L nutr. soln.
[(85.5 mg K2O) per 1 L nutr. soln.] ÷ 0.50 = (171 mg K2SO4) per 1 L nutr. soln.
(171 mg K2SO4) per 1 L nutr. soln. X 100 (dilution Factor) = 17100 mg K2SO4 per 1 L nutr. soln.
(17100 mg K2SO4) per 1 L nutr. soln. X g per 1000 mg = 17.10 g K2SO4 per 1 L nutr. soln.
[(17.10 mg K2SO4) per 1 L stock] ÷ 454 g per lb = (0.038 lb K2SO4) per 1 L nutr. soln
[(0.038 lb K2SO4) per 1 L nutr. soln] x 3.78 L per gal = (0.142 lb K2SO4) per 1 galstock
0.14 lb K2SO4 x 5 gal in tank = 0.71 lb K2SO4 dissolved in 5-gal stock.
4. Summary. To get 150 ppm of N, K and Ca in the final nutrient solution, 3.30 lb Ca (NO3)2 , 0.87 lb KNO3, and 0.14 lb K2SO4 are dissolved in 5-gallon stocks. The stocks will be diluted 1 part fertilizer stock to 100 parts incoming water to provide the desired nutrient solution for the plants. The K2SO4 needs to go into a different stock tank from the Ca(NO3)2 and KNO3 stock tank to prevent precipitation of the Ca + SO4 as calcium sulfate.
Example B. The grower is going to be using fertilizer from these stocks to add to the sump, (recirculating) tank which is 50 gal in volume. To achieve the desired final concentration, 0.5 gal of each stock needs to be added to the sump tank. The above stocks were formulated for a 1:100 dilution in order to achieve the 150 ppm desired concentrations. Therefore, 1 gal each stock is needed for every 100 gal of final solution; so 0.50 gal of each nutrient solution is needed in the sump tank.
Although, only N, Ca, and K examples were used here, similar calculations can be made with other fertilizer materials. You can also see that similar calculations can be made for the situation where premixed materials are used. The problem is that once one of the nutrients, N, P, or K is selected to fix the fertilizer calculations on, the other two nutrients are fixed by default. Using premixed materials often results in sacrifices in desired nutrient concentrations of certain nutrients for the convenience of use of the material.
.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 23, 2010)

Thank You fatman,
No disrespect meant with "fatty" earlier, sorry about that.
I'll get my room specs together and post them to get a recommendation for a formula from you. Currently using "Lucas" but going to a more aggressive setup.
Thanks
pp69


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## fatman7574 (May 23, 2010)

pikes peak 69 said:


> Thank You fatman,
> No disrespect meant with "fatty" earlier, sorry about that.
> I'll get my room specs together and post them to get a recommendation for a formula from you. Currently using "Lucas" but going to a more aggressive setup.
> Thanks
> pp69


Oh that smell! The words often spoken by the GYN doctor before he swithed to OB only.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 23, 2010)

Hello Mr fatman,

I will quickly put this list together of room specs.

10,000 watts of mixed Mh and HPS. Hung vertically no reflectors. 48Watts per Sq Ft.
8 plant sites on 5' centers.
This is an improved Krusty Bucket System (KBS)
Plants are fed- timed top feed, timed middle spray with misters, and a constant bottom feed in the lower bucket(container).
Lites on- 80*F and 60% hum, 1500 ppm Co2m.
Lites off- 75*F and 50% hum.
80 gallon recirculating reservoir, with a 100 gallon passive on a timed float valve.
Water source is via RO, ph is 7.2 and TDS is >10.
Media for plants is 100% perlite.
Due to our laws I will be growing trees. Basically 5' tall by about 5' diameter as well.
I've used GH Floroseries GMB in the past on a smaller room and switched to Lucas when that FAD hit. This is now a new room and I want to mix my own and also understand how to mix my own.
I have a supplier right in town for most if not all the salts.
Hydro-Gardens 

Once again Thanks for everything you do and have done for the people.

pp69


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## fatman7574 (May 23, 2010)

Your is an inet media grow. A basic inert Hydro. I wouldsuggest that you justcontinue with theGH Flra series using their calcualtor and basingthe EC onthe room temps. At high temps run a lower EC as the plants will be transpiring more at at high temps therfore taking up morewater therefore lower the EC soas to mp ot takeup to many nuts andend up with over j k lushgrowth, burnt tips or stretched out plants. At lower room temps less transpiration wl takeplace so to make sure the pam ts getenough nutes without exrtar wasted effort you should supply a higher EC. You should be ableto amke theGHnutesg for anut $3 to $5pergallon for 100X concentrate. I would suggestwith the monet saved you onsider buyig a EC controoler and pH controller from ebay. When that time comes PM mean I will link you to controllers that are good industrial/laboratory grade equaipment at very good prices. "Lucas Formula" should be taken off the web but unkowing people still want to use it. Sad. With your system I wouldrecommend drai towaste notrecirculation. You woil find with thecheap cost of self mixed nutrients it is better to justusedrain to wasteratherthan worrying about top offs, EC and Phissues or ontrollersetc. The nutrients are always the same pH, always balanced and never deficient due to nutrient lock outs due to recirculating reservoir buffering and pH swings as happen with recirculating reservoirs. With mixing your own nutes the cost of producing your own RO water wll be higher than yourfertilizer costs. You will be supplying nutes diluted to about 250 to 550 ppm and supplyingnit frequently only in very small amounts so that the media always stays damp. Like a few seconds spray every minute. About 1/3 of the water should run out the bottom of your buckets and should have an EC about 1/3 to 1/2 of the EC at input. The media being inert and nearly non absorbant will mean your system will ctually behaven morelike an aero system tha a standard hydro system. The perlite will only act as a surface to support the plants physically. An even better media would be to add some bio balls or some rubber mulch to the perlite. with adrain to waste sytem youf do ot need the high calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and iron needed with recirculating reservoirs.

fatman's Bloom Drain to Waste

Nitrogen 400
Phosphorus 100
Potassium 449
Magnesium 50
Calcium 125
Sulfur 66
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 8.3
Potassium Nitrate 7.6
Ammonium Nitrate 4.4
Iron Chelate 1.35

Part B
Potassium Nitrate 7.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate .1
Magnesium Sulfate 6.7
MonoAmmonium Phosphate 6.0
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .368
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate .059
Ammonium Molybdate .002

Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.37
TDS 1650 
Salt weight 3244 mg/L


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## pikes peak 69 (May 23, 2010)

Thank you fatman,

I must stick with recirculating for now although I understand the advantage of D-W. Actually when I set new patients up with a handwater system to start out with I recommend to them a Drain to waste with about 25% runoff. Everyone loves the simplicity of it.
Would you mind calculating a veg and bloom formula for recurculating system with the hiher Ca, Mg, P, and Fe that it would require?
I had looked at Bio Balls (weighted ones) but I now have enough perlite for a couple runs so I may switch after that.


Also as a side note. Reading through this thread I planned on using the Sodium Silicate. Actually ordered some last night. Your calculations for quantity to use, I didn't understand right of hand, but also you had mentioned that a teaspoon is 15ml. I have always thought that a teaspoon was 5ml and a tablespoon was 15ml or 3 teaspoons.
Going to slap you some rep now,

pp69 






fatman7574 said:


> Your is an inet media grow. A basic inert Hydro. I wouldsuggest that you justcontinue with theGH Flra series using their calcualtor and basingthe EC onthe room temps. At high temps run a lower EC as the plants will be transpiring more at at high temps therfore taking up morewater therefore lower the EC soas to mp ot takeup to many nuts andend up with over j k lushgrowth, burnt tips or stretched out plants. At lower room temps less transpiration wl takeplace so to make sure the pam ts getenough nutes without exrtar wasted effort you should supply a higher EC. You should be ableto amke theGHnutesg for anut $3 to $5pergallon for 100X concentrate. I would suggestwith the monet saved you onsider buyig a EC controoler and pH controller from ebay. When that time comes PM mean I will link you to controllers that are good industrial/laboratory grade equaipment at very good prices. "Lucas Formula" should be taken off the web but unkowing people still want to use it. Sad. With your system I wouldrecommend drai towaste notrecirculation. You woil find with thecheap cost of self mixed nutrients it is better to justusedrain to wasteratherthan worrying about top offs, EC and Phissues or ontrollersetc. The nutrients are always the same pH, always balanced and never deficient due to nutrient lock outs due to recirculating reservoir buffering and pH swings as happen with recirculating reservoirs. With mixing your own nutes the cost of producing your own RO water wll be higher than yourfertilizer costs. You will be supplying nutes diluted to about 250 to 550 ppm and supplyingnit frequently only in very small amounts so that the media always stays damp. Like a few seconds spray every minute. About 1/3 of the water should run out the bottom of your buckets and should have an EC about 1/3 to 1/2 of the EC at input. The media being inert and nearly non absorbant will mean your system will ctually behaven morelike an aero system tha a standard hydro system. The perlite will only act as a surface to support the plants physically. An even better media would be to add some bio balls or some rubber mulch to the perlite. with adrain to waste sytem youf do ot need the high calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and iron needed with recirculating reservoirs.
> 
> fatman's Bloom Drain to Waste
> 
> ...


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## sdkid (May 23, 2010)

hey fatman been waiting to get ahold of you. 

i just wanted to talk more about hydro system, i really like the under current ones you posted.


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## fatman7574 (May 23, 2010)

ooops, my bad. A teaspon is just short of 5ml. I do not remember my silica post specifically. What page or reply # is it. If I remember right most sodium silicate is sold at a 40% solution and you want a 0.1% solution. But typically fertilizer is 100X concentrate so that means a 10 percent solution in the concentartes before dilutio. IE that means you mix your fertilizer usng 1/2 gallon of the 40% sodium silicate solution as part of the water for the 1 gallon of Part B of each of your formulations (Grow and Bloom). That means your bloom or grow when diluted 100 to 1 will make 200 gallons of fertilzer of each. IE 200 gallons of Grow and 200 gallons of Bloom. Each will contain 0.1% sodium silica. Is 0.1% the right amount. Opinions vary, but 0.1% is the amount used by Botanicare in their new Power Premium hydro nutrients.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 23, 2010)

I think the first time is in reply #59. it has been copied a couple times throughout the thread though.

pp69




fatman7574 said:


> opps, my bad. A teaspon is just short of 5ml. I do not remember my silica post specifically. What page or reply # is it.


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## fatman7574 (May 23, 2010)

sdkid said:


> hey fatman been waiting to get ahold of you.
> 
> i just wanted to talk more about hydro system, i really like the under current ones you posted.


Empty some space in your PM service as it is too full to take a message.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 23, 2010)

Hello fatman,
I've been looking at these numbers for better then 1 hour now and can't wrap my thick skull around them.
I believe you want about 100 ppm of silicate per gallon. If I try to do the calculations (as I understand them, may not be right) I calculate that you would need about .946 grams per gallon of res water. With part a&b making 200 gallons, I thought it would take about 200 grams (gram = ml right???). So that would be about 6.6 oz or so. I don't understand where you come up with 1/2gallon or 64 oz. That sounds like 10 times the amount.

HELP
pp69




fatman7574 said:


> If I remember right most sodium silicate is sold at a 40% solution and you want a 0.1% solution. But typically fertilizer is 100X concentrate so that means a 10 percent solution in the concentartes before dilutio. IE that means you mix your fertilizer usng 1/2 gallon of the 40% sodium silicate solution as part of the water for the 1 gallon of Part B of each of your formulations (Grow and Bloom). That means your bloom or grow when diluted 100 to 1 will make 200 gallons of fertilzer of each. IE 200 gallons of Grow and 200 gallons of Bloom. Each will contain 0.1% sodium silica. Is 0.1% the right amount. Opinions vary, but 0.1% is the amount used by Botanicare in their new Power Premium hydro nutrients.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 23, 2010)

I think I got the silicate figured out. Now I come up with 66 oz. closer to what you said from the git go.

pp69




pikes peak 69 said:


> Hello fatman,
> I've been looking at these numbers for better then 1 hour now and can't wrap my thick skull around them.
> I believe you want about 100 ppm of silicate per gallon. If I try to do the calculations (as I understand them, may not be right) I calculate that you would need about .946 grams per gallon of res water. With part a&b making 200 gallons, I thought it would take about 200 grams (gram = ml right???). So that would be about 6.6 oz or so. I don't understand where you come up with 1/2gallon or 64 oz. That sounds like 10 times the amount.
> 
> ...


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## fatman7574 (May 24, 2010)

It was just top of the head estimate. I just figured that each gallon of concentrate will make 100 gallons. So 200 gallons total. For 0.1 % if the sodium silicate was 0.1% You would need to 200 gallons of sodium silicate, but the sodium silicate is 40% so therefore 400 times that strong. That would be 1/4 of a gallon per Part A 1/4 and 1/4 gallon for Part B. IE 946 ml per each. At 128 ouncs per gallon that means 32 ounces in each 1 gallon bottle of concentrate.

*But* *there are two types of fertilizer nutrients Grow amd Bloom.* It took 1/2 gallon total for the above say *Grow* two part. Now we need the same for the Bloom. 

Ie that means 1/2 gallon for the Bloom and 1/2 gallon for the Grow. One gallon total. Or add it to the reservoir at *9.46 ml per gallon.*


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## pikes peak 69 (May 24, 2010)

Got it!!
Thanks
pp69


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## hellbent (May 24, 2010)

I would like to thank you Fatman, I have been sucking hind teat as it were, using big mikes product's. I however am not ready to step up my game as of yet, so I went with the Dyna- gro... All the products for a grow start to finish out the door for less then a C note in my world is sweet! Kind of funny when you hold a bottle of this up to a "pro plan" nute line it's One bottle vs A&B and 6 quarts of additives. Thanks + reps if I knew how...


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## fatman7574 (May 24, 2010)

hellbent said:


> I would like to thank you Fatman, I have been sucking hind teat as it were, using big mikes product's. I however am not ready to step up my game as of yet, so I went with the Dyna- gro... All the products for a grow start to finish out the door for less then a C note in my world is sweet! Kind of funny when you hold a bottle of this up to a "pro plan" nute line it's One bottle vs A&B and 6 quarts of additives. Thanks + reps if I knew how...


Glad to help. To give rep you just click on the little star at the bottom left hand corner of the reply, next to where it ssys Journal this post.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 24, 2010)

Hello Fatman,
Curious if you'd mind calculating a formula for me. Grow and Bloom parts a & b. I'll be vegging for 5-6 weeks and then Bloom for 8-9 weeks. Earlier you mentioned skicking with the GH Floro series, so if it duplicates that it would be cool.

Thanks
pp69




pikes peak 69 said:


> Thank you fatman,
> 
> I must stick with recirculating for now although I understand the advantage of D-W. Actually when I set new patients up with a handwater system to start out with I recommend to them a Drain to waste with about 25% runoff. Everyone loves the simplicity of it.
> *Would you mind calculating a veg and bloom formula for recurculating system with the hiher Ca, Mg, P, and Fe that it would require?*
> ...


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## fatman7574 (May 24, 2010)

*fatmans Grow Recirculation 5-24-2010*

ppm

Nitrogen 267
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 291
Magnesium 93
Calcium 261
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .03

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 17.3
Potassium Nitrate 3.3
Iron Chelate 1.35

PART B

Potassium Nitrate 3.3
MonoPotassium Phosphate 5.2
Magnesium Sulfate 12.6
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .368
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate .059
Ammonium Molybdate .03

Volume of Stock Solutions 1 Gallon Each of Part A and Part B
Dilution Rate 100

*fatmans's Bloom Recirculation 05-24-2010*

ppm

Nitrogen 293
Phosphorus 80
Potassium 350
Magnesium 91
Calcium 268
Sulfur 120
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .0009

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 17.7
Potassium Nitrate 4.3
Iron Chelate 1.35

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 4.3
MonoPotassium Phosphate5.0
Magnesium Sulfate12.2
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .368
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate .059
Ammonium Molybdate .001

Volume of Stock Solutions 1 Gallon each of Part A and Part B
Dilution Rate 100

The Bloom contains a little more Nitrogen and more Potash as is recommended with a Bloom formula. The Phosphorus is higher due to buffering uses of Phosphorus with a recirculatig reservoir. Note Pj hpsporus is about doble that as in the mj tissue sample avg. for both Grow and Bloom. Extra calcium is added due to buffereing needs with a recirculation reservoir.

The NPK ratios are For VEG 3.25 1 : 3.54 (tissue samples avg 7:1:7)

For Bloom 3.66 : 1 : 4.37 (tissue samples avg 5:1:6)

Recirculating reservoirs are a PITA due to buffering always going on in the reservoir. With rarin to waste you just set up formulations with ratios equal to your tissue sample ratios as no buffering is required. Not the case with recirculating resrvoir nutrient formulstions.

So ignore dumb asses like Fat Mikie of AN when he says stupid stuff like everyone is putting to much phosphorous in their formulations or more nitrogen is used by budding plants than veg. IE the Great Phosphorus Myth video. It is the ratios that matter not the single nutrient total when dealing with nutrient formulations. Veg ratio is 7:1:7 IE veg uses 7 nitrogen for a each 1 phosphorus. Bloom uses 5 Nitrogen for 1 Phosphorus. Sure in total more nitrogen is uptaken during budding then veg, however at a lesser lower ratio. So bloom does take up more nitrogen but it also takes up more phosphorus and potassium. IE the phosphrus ratio IS HIGHER during bloom. Fat Mikie is a dumb ass with no common sense when it comes to nutrients or chemistry. He does not work in the labs he justs runs at the mouth and talks garbage. The man can not even properly interpret his own bar graphs of tissue samples ntrient concentrations. Go figure, a multi millionaire who owns majoriy interest in a mj specific nutrient company (AN) and he is ignorant in regard to nutrient chemistry and can not even understand the data he psys for in reard to the performance ofhis products or the nutrient requirements of mj plant nutrient resrvoirs. Go figure.


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## cannatari (May 24, 2010)

Hey fatman, I gotta say that I've learned more in this thread about nutrients than anywhere else on the web. This IS the best thread on nutrients on RIU. I've learned alot from your posts and will continue to learn more as my brain can grasp it all. I think your fertilizer recipes should be the standard for benchmarking an MJ grow. I'm sure people think you're a mean old man but the truth is that you must be very kind hearted to share your knowledge in such good detail with us and not keep it hidden from us like the rest of the nutrient manufacturing world. I thank you very much for your efforts fatman.

-cannatari


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## pikes peak 69 (May 24, 2010)

Thank you very Much fatman1!!

pp69

ps: I agree with the above post. You are kindhearted and very knowledgeable. 

pp69




fatman7574 said:


> *fatmans Grow Recirculation 5-24-2010*
> 
> ppm
> 
> ...


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## YouGrowBoy (May 24, 2010)

Fatman, I've been following your nut mixes (have not made one yet) for a bit and see this is close to the formula posted in #62. However, there is a major difference in the amounts need to get the ppm. In #62 you say use 82.2 ounces of Calcium Nitrate and in this post you have only 17.7. That's about 1/5 the amount for nearly the same ppm. I'm a little confused.




fatman7574 said:


> *fatmans Grow Recirculation 5-24-2010*
> 
> ppm
> 
> ...


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## fatman7574 (May 24, 2010)

Like my mental health people say, you have a heart of gold, and would give your life for the life of a total stranger without a second thought, but due to your past your so spiritually and emotionally damaged that you show no natural signs of possessing any positive social emotions skills what so ever. When you do appear to be acting in a socially acceptable manner it is all through metal control IE an Act to appear normal by mimicing others. Then they would say, "You really do not ever expect to have any real, open, intimate, meaningful relationships with anyone do you?" My reply, why would I ever want to do that? The Veterans Administration classifies me as permanently wounded emotionally. Doesn't stop me from learning or teaching. Actually, lecturing is a more appropriate description.


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## AeroTrek (May 24, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> Fatman, I've been following your nut mixes (have not made one yet) for a bit and see this is close to the formula posted in #62. However, there is a major difference in the amounts need to get the ppm. In #62 you say use 82.2 ounces of Calcium Nitrate and in this post you have only 17.7. That's about 1/5 the amount for nearly the same ppm. I'm a little confused.


Fatman uses "waste to drain" method. That's what post #62 formula is for...the formula you are comparing to is for recirculation systems.

My appologies fatman I didn't notice you were online.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 24, 2010)

Hello fatman,

So looking at those mixes, both parts A&B are dilution of 100:1. So when I mix these in reservoir I would use, as an example:
In a 100 gallon reservoir:
19ml of each part (A&B). That would allow mixing 200 gallons total.
Is there a way to know how much A&B (in ml) per gallon for a specific ppm. ie: maybe like every ml equals 50 ppm or something like that?

Much appreciated,

pp69


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## fatman7574 (May 24, 2010)

Yes, that is right. 200 gallons at the ppms shown.

The formulations are each a formulation of something like micro and grow or micro and bloom. But you do not mix them at ratios of say 2 part of Part A and 1 Part Part B like with Lucas etc. They are always mixed at a 1 to 1 ratio. So to get the ppms as shown you would be mixing aprox 19 ml of each. If 19 ml of each say equals 293 ppm of nitrogen then 1.9 ml of each is equal to 29.3 pm of nitrogen. IE if dividing the amount added by ten the end result will also be divided by10. The formulation is based upon proportional ratios. So if you mix up some thing and get an EC of say 3 if you gain mix the new nutrients up with one tenth as much salts you will end up with an EC of 0.3. Or if you mix up something suc as above and get a meter reading of 1690 ppm, if you made the mix with 1/10 as much nutrient concentarates you would get a total ppm reading of only 169 ppm. Say you want a reading of 500 ppm. Oh boy algebra: 38/1690 = X/500, so (38*500)/1690= X, so X=11.24 ml total. So that means (11.24/2)= 5.62l per Part A and 5.62 ml per Part B per gallon of reservoir water for a total ppm of 500.

Here is the problem. I can supply a theoretical EC and ppm. The total of total of all the salt weights converted in mg/liters divided by 2 is the real ppm. Theroretically you then just divide this number by 700 to get the EC. IE I use a 700 conversion ratio for calculations as I also use 700 conversion EC meters. However your EC meter will NOT give you the true reading as calculated. For example these nutrients are around a 2.8 EC so the ppm at a dilution of 100x is 1960 ppm. The salt weight is 3920 ppm. The metered EC or ppm reading, who knows.

Evert thing really depends on your mixing up say a batch of 1 gallon at say 19 ml each and use your EC meter. From there you can determine any amount for any ppm you desire. Just remember they are metered meaurements not true measurements.. truemeasurements maen converting the total weight of all the ingrediants to mg then converting 200 gallons to liters. Divide the total weight in mg by the total volume in liters. This will give you a number in mg per liter (mg/L). 1 mg per liter is 1 ppm.

I really doubt you want to see all the math behind the nutrient top off calculators or mixing calculators. Just like above they can give you at laest three different answers depending upon what method they use for a basis of determing the inital ppm to use in the calculation programs. Based on EC calculations, EC maeasurements and EC conversion factors of either 500 or 700, or based upon real calculations using real water volumes and salt weights. All are just tools none are totally accuratte. The weight in mg divide by total water volume is the closest. The simpliest method is to do the one gallon test mix the solution, measure the ppm and use the algebraic equation plugging in the ppm reading the ml used and the desired ppm results.


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## fatman7574 (May 25, 2010)

*Humus, Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid*

Humus is defined as the organic matter in soil, a mixture of partially and totally humified substances. Compost is an intermediate product consisting of humic substances and partially decomposed organic matter.

The use of numerous names to describe commercially available humic materials has contributed to the confusion. Humates, humic acid, leonardite, brown coal, lignite, slack lignite, oxidized lig- nite, weathered lignite, humalite, fulvic acid, fulvates, ulmic acid, humic shale, carbonaceous shale, colloidal minerals, humin, concentrated humus, soil organic matter, peat, humus acid, humus coal and dead organic matter are some of the terms that are used to describe and/or market humic substances.

Potassium hydroxide is the typical alkali used by manufacturers to extract humic acid from leonardite. Since the remaining liquid solution is very alkaline, in the range of 8 to 12 pH, it is incompatible with acids. Here lies some of the confusion, the humic acid synthesized by this operation is not actually an acid. Because it can also be described as the product of adding acid to an alkaline solution, it is a salt &#8212; therefore the word &#8220;humate&#8221; may be more appropriate.

Some manufacturers follow the traditional method described above by treating the alkaline extract with acid, precipitating out the humic acid portion, leaving behind the so-called fulvic acid fraction in solution. The fulvic fraction is acidic, with a distinctive yellowish tint. Note, however, that the operation is vague. There is no definite pH at which the precipitate and acid are separated.

As various fractions of humic substances are soluble in a wide pH range, it makes sense that some fractions must be soluble at neutral pH. Some manufacturers treat humic materials with water, extracting the water-soluble fraction, calling that fraction either fulvic acid or &#8220;colloidal minerals,&#8221; which are promoted in human neutraceutical markets. Fulvic acid can be operationally defined as &#8220;the fraction of humic substances that is soluble in water under all pH conditions.&#8221;

The marketing of humic substances is interesting in that there is a lack of standardized analysis within the industry for fulvic acid and humic acid. For example, if liquidized humic materials are subjected to analysis, it is difficult to determine what the analysis reveals because of the infinite number of reassociations of free radicals that are possible during the extraction process. Some scientists argue that the reaction products are substances created by alkali treatment as complex degradation products, stripped of many of the original functional groups and recombined into an indescribable material. This may seem to be a nit pick, but some scientists like to argue about it.

The humin fraction gets very little attention. It may seem somewhat inert, but it has been described as acting like a sponge, soaking up nutrients. M.H.B. Hayes and C.L. Graham report in &#8220;Procedures for the Isolation and Fractation of Humic Substances&#8221; that the composition of humin is the same as humic acid and fulvic acid. They say that humin may be a humic substance in association with mineral oxides or hydroxides (from the reaction), or that humin may be coated with hydrocarbons or lipids (fats) stripped during the reaction, making them insoluble to aqueous solvents. Nobody really knows for sure.

Some people think that fulvic acid is more biologically active than humic acid because of its smaller molecular size. There is some truth in these representations as there is evidence that the lower molecular weight fractions have the ability to cross plant membranes and improve permeability of cell walls. It is true that fulvic acids have a higher &#8220;total acidity&#8221; than humic acids, but the chemical reactivity and chelating ability of humic acids is equal to or greater than fulvic acid, making them very bioactive substances. The humic acid fraction may be more effective than fulvic acid at solubilizing extremely stable aluminum and iron phosphates.

Carbon nuclear magnetic resonance and mass spectrometric analyses have revealed that the main structural features of humic acid, fulvic acid and humin are nearly identical. To scientists who study humic substances, the names have no meaning chemically. Some scientists say that humic substances from different sources are essentially the same.

Reported variations in plant response to different sources of humic substances are rare. In one case reviewed by Y Chen and T. Aviad in &#8220;Effects of Humic Substances on Plant Growth,&#8221; the young age of the humic materials were suspect, because humification is a time-dependent process. As the material ages, more bioactive ingredients become incorporated into the humic complex.

*COMPLEX GEOBIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS*

The lower molecular weight (the mass of a substance expressed in gram equivalents of its atomic mass) of fulvic acid is sometimes said to account for its greater biological availability. That is somewhat correct, but vague &#8212; the industry has not agreed on standardized molecular weights for fulvic acid. Defining humic acid, fulvic acid and humin by their molecular weights is a controversial concept.

Humic substances change their structure depending on pH and the type of metals present. High pH (or the presence of multivalent ions, such as calcium Ca +) makes humic substances open up their long-chain polymers, whereas low pH makes them close. In the presence of toxic metals, humic substances remove the metals from the surrounding environment by forming insoluble aggregated spheres around them.

Humic substances are polymer-like molecules that demonstrate self-organization. The bi-layers formed by humic substances to surround otherwise insoluble minerals are reminiscent of the way all living things utilize biochemical reactions. The self-organized (micellular) colloidal phases act like biological molecules in cellular systems, showing a strong resemblance to the biological mechanisms of living membranes, as described in college textbooks. Humic substances are more like living creatures than chemical entities, but they don&#8217;t reproduce.

Slight changes in pH will actually cause the humic polymers to fracture, breaking up the original molecules. The fractured molecules are then free to associate with numerous other free radicals, metals or impurities. Humic substances are made up of hundreds of different molecules of many different sizes (polydispersity) with many ways to orient them-selves by twisting, bending, compressing, and expanding (conformational changes). They are held together loosely by weak forces in a colloidal state.

Any change in solution pH, concentration or the presence of metal ions &#8212; especially calcium ions &#8212; will cause huge changes in the physical makeup of the humic molecules. Even slight changes cause the molecules to change in orders of magnitude. Rapid changes in molecular structures are not unique to humic sub- stances &#8212; water molecules, for example, change their structure 10 trillion times a second. Although water is an extremely simple molecule, the determination of its structure at any given instant is still not fully known. The amazing complexity of humic substances may forever keep their structures a secret.

*FULVIC ACID*

The primary reason why there is so much confusion about humic substances is the fact that the procedures used to describe them are based on &#8220;classical&#8221; aqueous extraction. If minerals are present in the parent material, they become complexed by humic substances. This allows more humic and non-humic material to be solubilized during extraction by breaking down ion bridges that would normally hold the molecules together in higher-purity materials. Unless the super- natant is separated by special procedures (such as passing over an XAD-8 resin) to isolate the fulvic portion, the extracted substances may contain amino acids, proteins, sugars or fatty acids in addition to the fulvic acid.

In biological molecules, it is an established fact that the presence of functional
groups such as carboxyl, phenol, quinone and hydroxyl are responsible for the activity of these molecules. There is some evidence that there are more functional groups in fulvic than in humic acid. The effectiveness of fulvic extracts may be influenced by the way they are synthesized during chemical processing. The fulvic fraction of humic substances is undoubtedly a beneficial part of oxidied lignites.


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## YouGrowBoy (May 25, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Fatman uses "waste to drain" method. That's what post #62 formula is for...the formula you are comparing to is for recirculation systems.


Does that really explain why both are nearly the same PPM yet the one above uses a little over 1 pound of Calcium Nitrate and the other (#62) uses over 5 pounds of the same. Wouldn't the starting ppm of N in #62 be 5x more then the N of the post above as the dilution rate is equal?


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## patlpp (May 25, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> Does that really explain why both are nearly the same PPM yet the one above uses a little over 1 pound of Calcium Nitrate and the other (#62) uses over 5 pounds of the same. Wouldn't the starting ppm of N in #62 be 5x more then the N of the post above as the dilution rate is equal?


My take is that in #62 the volume of stock = 5.3 gallons (2.65 A, 2.65 B) and that of the new recirc formula should be for 1 gallon total stock :1/2 gal A and 1/2 gallon B. You would than have the same solution with the same EC value as in #62, just 1/5 as much. 

However, this recipe is for a very concentrated 2.5 EC, so to bring it to a more manageable EC of 1.25 you would dilute each concentrate A and B with another 1/2 gal water. the result would be 2 gallons of concentrate @ 100:1 EC 1.25


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## YouGrowBoy (May 25, 2010)

patlpp said:


> My take is that in #62 the volume of stock = 5.3 gallons (2.65 A, 2.65 B) and that of the new recirc formula should be for 1 gallon total stock :1/2 gal A and 1/2 gallon B. You would than have the same solution with the same EC value as in #62, just 1/5 as much.


I see the error, thanks for pointing it out.


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## fatman7574 (May 25, 2010)

Also notice some recipes will use both calcium nitrate and Potassium nitrate so as to raise the nitrate without raising the calcium.


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## pikes peak 69 (May 25, 2010)

Thank You fatman,
With each post I get closer to understanding what the Fu&k I'm doing.LOL

pp69


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## Enterpol (May 25, 2010)

Aaah, glad to see there is a calculation for 1gal stock of part A & B. After reading all this my head hurts. Now I really want to mix my own nutes but I have r GH flora products to use up. Also, one question Fatman; Why are the dry weight calculations in ounces, when most scales are weighted in grams?

P.S. I am in awe of your knowledge and grateful for the sharing of it.
P.P.S. How does the strain (Sativa, Indica, or Hybrid) change the calcs?


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## fatman7574 (May 25, 2010)

As using grams just means posting huge numbers I simply just use ounces. Just multiply ounces by 28.35 to obtain grams. Also consider most gram scales that have accuraccy down to mg typically max out at 250 to 500 grams. most people can get by with a cheap food or postal scale measuring ounces and a cheap ebay 1 gram scale for trace nutrients. People tend to go WTF when I state the major nutrients part in ounces and the micro nutrients part in grams or milligrams.

In reality the strains have little effect on formulating the ratios, just the required EC or total amount used through out the grow. The sativa or sativa dominant strains have a higher ratio of leaves and stems to buds, so they use more nutrients but at about the same ratios (a bit more calcium as calcium is mainly in the stems). The taller plants tend to take up ammomium nitrogen more when it is available due to a large percentage of the plant revieving low intensity lighting and side lighting, which cause more pH declines. This means higher usage of calcium amd magnesium as buffers. Indicas being shorter tend to be grown with more intense lighting as the light need not travel as far. They have a smaller artio of stems to buds so need less calcium. This uptake of nitrate as the major nitrogen source tends to cause pH increases, this leads to a higher demand for phosphorus due to its buffering pH rises. That is why nearly all but drain to waster nutrients conatin levels of calcium, magnesium and phosphorus above that of the plant needs. They are needed to keep ionic balances (ph balances) in the reservoir not due to higher plant needs. Without the excesses pH drops and rises would be huge. The reason mostnutrient suppliers use lots of extra phi opsphorus is that most nutrients for mj i use nitarates for nitrogen alost entirely. This means pH rises. The extra phosphorus makes these pH rises a lot smaller. Even so to lower the pH rises not handled by the excess phosphorus Phosphoric acid is used.


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## smoke headies (May 26, 2010)

Hey fatman,

Wow you are a new legend in the cultivation scene! I'm currently running a "modified lucas formula", I know I know, Lucas sucks and I shouldn't even be using it. Thats why I need your help.

Here are my specs:

10x10x8 room.
4x 600w HPS lights.
4x 3x3 trays (upgrading to 2x 3x6 soon)
2x 40 gal res.
Running ebb & flow set up
AK-47 from Serious Seeds
Veggin till 18 - 24 inches tall (under T5 bulbs)
Flowering for 9 complete weeks (Under HPS bulbs)
10 decent sized plants per tray. (a little crowded, not bad though)
Hydroton medium in 2.5 gal buckets, with Coco Coir matt lying on the bottom of each tray.
Lights on Temps run from 79 - 94f (while co2 is on), normal room temps are around 78f.
Night temps are 72 - 76f.
Using close to RO water. pH 6.5 ppm under 10

Thanks a lot Fatman, you're a lifesaver! Any help would be appreciated.


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## squarepush3r (May 26, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> It is at least a 300 to one concentration micro formulation. It is definitely designed to use with their own formulation though as they threw in the Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Magnesium to keep growers from using it as a micro mix for other brands of nutrients. I would not recommend that it be used as the micro portion for other nutrients mixes as it contains a butt load of Phosphorous and Potash even if diluted 300 to one. A 100 to 1 dilution would be 1400 ppm phosphorous and 2400 ppm potassium or 466 ppm and 800 ppm diluted 300 to 1.


hi again Fatman

I wanted to ask you about 2 things.

First, your response to this post of mine, is diluting so bad? My math seems to be a bit off from yours
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
The % content is 0-14-24, but the PPM would actually be with a dilution of 6.2g/gallon of this formula,
N-66ppm
P-100ppm
K-326ppm

and I could adjust the ratio with nitrate or monopotassium to make the ppm ratios look better.



Second question. I know you mention regarding all the AN additives, that they are basically cheap fertilizers with vitamins and minerals and enzymes we could buy at the local health food store. Do you think these have beneficial effect though (even though we could reproduce them)? ie, is the addition of amino acids, enzymes and vitamins a good booster?

thx, look forward to your response.


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## fatman7574 (May 27, 2010)

0-14-24 means zero ppm of nitrogen, 14% is 1400 ppm Phosphorus, 24% is 2400 ppm potash. However they did not list the concentrate. IE say the dilution factor. you can mix a fertilizer abnd sat y it is 0-14-24 and sell it as a 100X concentrate or a 200x or a 300 X or higher untill the salts start precipitation. Without know ing theconcentartion theguarnteed analysis means not a lot as the guarnteed analysis indicates the strength after dilution. Meaning you have no idea of the actual amount of salts present unless you know the concentration of the mix. A 100X mix diluted with say 38 ml would provide zeroppm of N, 1400 ppm of P and 2400 ppm of p. If it was a 300X mix the strenth would be if diluted to 38 ml in one gallon, zeronitrogen, 5200 ppm phi osphorus and 7200 ppm Potassium. Ie three times as strong. I dont rember what the product is that you are asking about, but Iassume I looked at the trace element guranteed anaysis or ppm and saw that they were aboutthree times the normal levels fora 100X concentration. this would n mean thatdiluted to 300 gallons instead of 100 gallons they would be about the strengthnormally used with mj specific nutrients. I did not likely run any calculations etc. butjust looked at the limited info they supplied in their add.

I believe I likely said that the higher priced top of the line AN nutrients are typically just standard two part type formulations with a few minor changes and with cheap supplements added like humic acids, fulvic acids and some cheap amino acids. They like to makeit look like they arecreating special formulations but they really are not. If you wish to add such things just use the standard two part formulas and add the supplements bought from a supplier of such supplements IE http://www.super-grow.biz/KelpFulvic.jsp They presently have not got the bulk amino acids in stock but they will be back in his store as soon as he finds another cheap source. Any other supplement he has. When you see the prices and then look at how liitle AN puts in their top nutrients and supplements and look at the price differences you will see AN products are a rip off. 

There are no magic formulas. No new discoveries. Just new marketers with new scams like Fat Mikie at AN. If you actually looked at the analysis and ingrediants list ofn the many AN products you would see that 3/4 of them can be ignored. Anything and everything Fat Mikie says should be ignored. He knows absolutely nothing about chemistry or nutrient chemsistry, he is just a marketer and a scammer. Research the enzyme concentrates and you will find they are just the fluid that drains from chicken compost. If you really want to try some amino acids I have pounds of mixed amino acids as I use it on some clone cuttings that are slow to put on many roots in the second and third week. I use rooting auxins in my cloing water and foliar spray the clones with diluted kelp/sea weed extract for week one and add amino acids to the clone water plus foliar spraying for weeks two and three. 

I use the amino acids at no other time as they really do almost nothing with inert hydro adult plants that already have a good root system. You can't fix something that already works and amino acids do not help in the up take of chemical nutrients. It is alledged that it contains some nutrients missing from regular nutrients mixes., but no reasercher has ever identified these nutrients. They have only said some amino acids are beneficial when the roots system is still poorly developed. Amino acids should never be used in the last 6 or seven weeks of growth (budding).


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## squarepush3r (May 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> 0-14-24 means zero ppm of nitrogen, 14% is 1400 ppm Phosphorus, 24% is 2400 ppm potash. However they did not list the concentrate. IE say the dilution factor.


ok, I just wanted to clarify 1 small point. The package % date lists the formula as 0-14-24, however from my understanding, this cannot be directly converted to 
N - 0 ppm
P -1400 ppm
K - 2400 ppm
as ppm is not the same as %, as their particle sizes (ppm) are different by weight (%)

For example, using cannastats calculator, the 0-14-24 formula, at 1g/gallon, would equate to
N - 0 ppm
P - 16 ppm
K - 53 ppm
which if it was freely converted without conversion to %, would be 0-16-53, or scaled downslightly to match P ratios, 0-14-45
so we have 0-14-*45 *compared with 0-14-*24* with different methods used, which one would be correct?


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## fatman7574 (May 27, 2010)

Were not talking particle numbers or Avogadro's numbers etc. ppm is defined as parts per million as a measurement of mass concentration dissolved in a specific weight of solution. The convention is to assume the solution of water is pure at normal atmospheric pressure at 20 degrees C, so it has a mass of 1000 grams per liter. Therefore using this assumption it is in mg/L IE milligrams per liter of water. Particle sizes has nothing to do with it as all. it is not a measurement of a number of particles in a solution. You also have to consider that most calculators also consider that a bagged fertilizer such as Phosphorus is sold as P2O5 but that is covert to P by the calculator by multiplying by 0.437. And K as sols is K2) and it is converted to K by multiplying by 0.83. That is not clearly indicated by the software packages shell graphics. It is simply done automatically and internally. I very much doubt that I ran anything through a, spread sheet or even used paper, pencil and calculator yet alone conversions. I simply looked at the ppm ar analysis numbers of the trace nutrients in their concentrates of an unknown strength. the cannastats calculator is simply a cheap spread sheet and obviously flawed if it is giving you such outputs. Either that or your inputting incorrectly, as 14% is either (14*100) = 1400 ppm or it is (14*100*0.437) = 611.8 ppm if converting from P205 to usable P. 14% can not become 16% nor ever become 16 ppm. It takes 1000 * 1000 ml to make a million. 1000 * 1000 mg to make a million. 

One thousandth of a gram is one milligram and 1000 ml is one liter, so that 1 ppm = 1 mg per liter = mg/Liter.
ppm is derived from the fact that the density of water is taken as 1kg/L = 1,000,000 mg/L, and 1mg/L is 1mg/1,000,000mg or one part in one million.


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## squarepush3r (May 27, 2010)

yes, I see what happened. The industry standard for labels read the ingredients as P2O5 % and K2O %, but the ppm conversion is different because the usable is a lesser amount than the listed % as you mention the downscale factor). Although the outputs are correct, I verified even with another calculator, you can play with it here.
http://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm

but back to my original question, if I wanted to use a formula as a simple all in 1 trace nutrient formula to save me the trouble of buying each trace element individually can you recommend anything? ie: a dry, all in 1 premixed trace nutrient formula?

thx!

edit, something like this?
*Plantex CSM+B*


http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/plantex-csmb.html

source 
http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=inven&EditU=2&Regit=5


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## fatman7574 (May 27, 2010)

I am not saying this company is better than others or offer better prices than other just that they are well respected by small commercial growers. If you email them a guranteed analysis of the micro nutrient formulation they will mix it for $27 per gallon. The last time I inquired they were preparing the solution at a 450X concentration. It can be supplied at a much, much higher concentration. You would need to contact them as to the concentrate they now supply. Realize this however; for a 100X concentrate a typical mj hydro total weight for all micro nutes is just a bit shy of *3/4 of an ounce*. Not including the cost of the molybdenum which is only about 0.001 ounces, the most expensive trace element is manganese at *$2 per ounce retail.* So for a 100X concentrate were talking a material cost of about $2, plus, the jug, label and labor. All the cost are the same regardless of the concentrate etc the salts. So for $27 I would demand at least a 300X concentrate. To assure that give them a formula three times stronger then required. IE for mj specific the standard analysis should be, Iron 0.10%, manganese, boron, and zinc, should be 0.05%, copper should be 0.01% and molybdenum should be 0.0009%. This is for a 100X, for a 300X you would ask for levels three times those listed above or specificaly state you want a minimum of a 300X concentrate. Consider their cost are less than 1/3 retail for the ingrediants. They can afford to be generous with the concentration. Do not custom order a micro mix that contains calcium, magnesium or sulfur!!!!

http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_266&products_id=347&zenid=7c8ea447c5f97d79042fe51914472f92


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## AeroTrek (May 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I am not saying this company is better than others or offer better prices than other just that they are well respected by small commercial growers. If you email them a guranteed analysis of the micro nutrient formulation they will mix it for $27 per gallon. The last time I inquired they were preparing the solution at a 450X concentration. It can be supplied at a much, much higher concentration. You would need to contact them as to the concentrate they now supply. Realize this however; for a 100X concentrate a typical mj hydro total weight for all micro nutes is just a bit shy of *3/4 of an ounce*. Not including the cost of the molybdenum which is only about 0.001 ounces, the most expensive trace element is manganese at *$2 per ounce retail.* So for a 100X concentrate were talking a material cost of about $2, plus, the jug, label and labor. All the cost are the same regardless of the concentrate etc the salts. So for $27 I would demand at least a 300X concentrate. To assure that give them a formula three times stronger then required. IE for mj specific the standard analysis should be, Iron 0.10%, manganese, boron, and zinc, should be 0.05%, copper should be 0.01% and molybdenum should be 0.0009%. This is for a 100X, for a 300X you would ask for levels three times those listed above or specificaly state you want a minimum of a 300X concentrate. Consider their cost are less than 1/3 retail for the ingrediants. They can afford to be generous with the concentration. Do not custom order a micro mix that contains calcium, magnesium or sulfur!!!!
> 
> http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_266&products_id=347&zenid=7c8ea447c5f97d79042fe51914472f92


They ask you to specify plant type...should you include type of strain? LOL. Just kidding, I guess all they need is the formula and a simple tomato plant would suffice.


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## fatman7574 (May 27, 2010)

At least they do not specifically say some absurdity like do not assk qusetions orseek cosultation services for the growing of illegal substances. There are comapanies that do that andten uturn arounfd and design formulations specifically for growing mj but sell it through major supplliers as if that keeps their hands clean. For an example Suntec NZ has Dr. Morgan a PhD (a horticulturalist) as their chief advisor on all their numerous *marketing* help sites for legal house plant growers and small scale commercial green house growers. They supply consultations all over the world to anyone that will pay their fees. They will formualate a nutrient mix for anyone for anything, and have always done so. They sell a software program for nutrient formulation thats specificically includes mj specific a mj nutrient formulations, but the print on their site they will not answer question or provides services for growing illegal substances. Their mj specific nutrients are even sold by Botanicare. Go figure.


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## Cannaholic (May 28, 2010)

Fatman, thank you so much for this thread. After a failed harvest, I was very very lost as to where I should go next. I stumbled onto this thread through another poster on another MJ site. The poster was raving on and on about the reverse Lucas formula he learned from a fatman. I search and found this thread and your other "methodical..." thread, then spent whole the night reading from the first page to the end. I have 12 whole pages of notes by the time I typed this. You are truly a master of your arts. 

I have a couple of burning questions:

1. What do you think of Superbud/Phosphoload/Plant growth inhibitors everyone was raving about? They run $100 to $200 a liter! I know people who bought it(phosphoload) and all I hear about is their record harvests.

2. What do you think of Bud Blood? It's a tiny jug of 0-39-25 powder with Potassium sulphate, potassium phosphate, and magnesium phosphate as its "derivations". None of the ingredients were used in your formulas. If it is effective, is there a way to emulate it with your ingredients?


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## fatman7574 (May 28, 2010)

There are many uninformed unreliable growers saying many things in growing forums. Phosphorus is the least up taken major nutrient by Maj. It is up taken at about 1/4 the rate of nitrogen. Its uptake increases during budding but so do the rate of nitrogen and phosphorus. The ratios stay about the same so as long as the EC is adequate there is no benefit to raising the ratio of phosphorus to that of Potassium or Nitrogen. There is no gain to increasing potassium as the ratio does not change. The only possible advantage to increased amount of phosphorus is in that it is used up fairly quickly as a buffer in a recirculating reservoir. That means it remains in the reservoir but is not in a form where the plants roots can utilize it. This is usually taken care of by pH adjustments with phosphoric acid and through nutrient top offs. However if you have a constant problem with a high pH then additional phosphorus helps. 

So it is not because plants need more phosphorus or potassium as in all the Phosphoload or Superbud type preparations, the plants do not need increased ratios of phosphorus and potassium. It is simple that the recirculating reservoir is a poor method of providing balance nutrients on a long term as there are daily buffering actions going on that cause imbalances and nutrient lock outs. Frequent reservoir changes and frequent nutrient additions to the reservoir to maintain the EC eliminate any need of these supplements. Without buffering problems there is no gain to adding an increased ratio of phosphorus. then look at the fact that phosphorus uptakes during budding is at the most 20% of nitrogen uptake. That means if the nutrient formula your using has phosphorus at over 25% of the nitrogen present then the manufacturer has already added extra phosphorus due to anticipated needs for buffering. Potassium ratios during budding remain about the same. The amount increases but not the ratio. The phosphorus numbers need only be approx 10% higher than the nitrogen. 

Realize though that nitrogen up take is nearly always higher during budding then during veg growth but most manufacturers have been slow to adjust for this. I have been running mj tissue samples for over 15 years showing this higher nitrogen up take during budding. AN has been running tissue samples for at least 8 years that show this high nitrogen up take, but few listen. Go figure.

I know of NO PLANT GROWTH INHIBITORS I would recommend anyone use on mj, with the possible exception off growth stimulator that causes increased side branching. This would help with mj plants that go through a too large stretch in the first few weeks of budding. It is a spray on (foliar application) chemical that is used twice a couple weeks a part during early budding. There are many good preparations that aid in root development.

http://www.super-grow.biz/BenzylAminopurine.jsp

Bud Blood is as described above only beneficial to offset the phosphorus used as buffers. The use of the particular salts they choose is really just a marketing scam used so as to say they are better or use better quality chemicals and to hide what they are really supplying. Typically chemical nutrients manufacturers and myself use mono potassium phosphate to provide all or nearly all phosphorus and potassium and a very small amount of ammonium nitrogen. There is no gain to the Budblood 's use of potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate instead, and potassium carbonate and magnesium phosphate.. They did in making such choices add a small amount of magnesium and sulfur. However those are usually just added through the use of magnesium sulfate. Basically it is just a marketing scam. But that is what AN is best known for, scams. Once the chemicals are added to the reservoir they disassociate and become the same chemicals. If you look at the guaranteed analysis the mixture provides phosphoric acid and soluble potassium. Basically they simply added both pH up and pH down at the same time. IE just ingredients to replace those They just attempt to hide that by using chemical salts that are seldom ever used in nutrient formulations. They do that with most of their new products. Nothing new just the same old stuff but hidden behind new names that few recognize.


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## jjfoo (May 28, 2010)

fatman,

do you regularly use benzylaminopurine?


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## jjfoo (May 28, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Phosphorus is the least up taken major nutrient by Maj. It is up taken at about 1/4 the rate of nitrogen. Its uptake increases during budding but so do the rate of nitrogen and phosphorus. The ratios stay about the same so as long as the EC is adequate there is no benefit to raising the ratio of phosphorus to that of Potassium or Nitrogen. There is no gain to increasing potassium as the ratio does not change. The only possible advantage to increased amount of phosphorus is in that it is used up fairly quickly as a buffer in a recirculating reservoir.


So using something like 3-1-2 all the way through makes sense? I use phosphoric acid and only add back water till my EC is correct.

Up until now I have been using 1-3-2 for flowering.


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## kiwiboy1 (May 28, 2010)

Thanks for the nutrient recipe thread. I hope it does get stickied.


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## kiwiboy1 (May 28, 2010)

As a side note, what is in Cannazym, cannaBoost? I have never used them and don't know if there is a need.

I will make the coco and soil recipe (cns17?) you give me next week.

I have had to used phostrogen general fertilizer for the last 2 week to get me through. Damn the ph swings a massive being urea based fert. I had to give up on recirc and goto drain to waste.

I also noticed that NPK value can be express in two different ways to have total difference numbers. Depends on which country you are in. I think it's like the Percentage of the ion is one way, and the other is the percentage of the chemical.


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## squarepush3r (May 28, 2010)

vote sticky in nutrients section!


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## fatman7574 (May 28, 2010)

kiwiboy1 said:


> As a side note, what is in Cannazym, cannaBoost? I have never used them and don't know if there is a need.
> Cannazym claims: "It consists of more than 12 different enzymes and is enriched with vitamins and desert plant extracts." It is an extract of chicken compost from Mexico.. It just so happens it is the same source of the chicken compst extract sold as Hygrozyme. Desert plants are the carbon matter they add to the compost piles as the carbon food source of the bacteria and to provibe bulk to the sompost piles so that the piles are loose enough to allow air to move the throuno bedding so they add desrt brush. IE desert plant extracts. So Cannazyme like hygrozyme is the drainage that comes from rotting piles of chicken manure and desrt weeds and brush. The US EPA now places rigid controls on all compost sold. Mexico does not. US chickem farmers use straw and saw dust as bedding poultry Mexico uses nothing so they must add something and free brush and weeds work.
> 
> Cannaboost is as far as I know just a week solution of chemical based potassium amd potash. They do not disclose if it contains anything else such as enzymes, amino acids, humic or fulvic acids etc.
> ...


*Conversion between elemental and molecular forms of phosphorus and potassium.*​ 
K x 1.205 = K2O

K2O x 0.83 = K

P x 2.291 = P2O5

P2O5 x 0.437 = P

Now if the site administrator would just add sub and super text with his upgrades instead of lame cosmetic upgrades and Cheech and Chong nonsence.


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## Scorpion Au (May 28, 2010)

Hi Fatman, thanks very much for your info in this thread, and several others! I'm a long-time lurker, but just saw this thread and felt the need to post.

I'm running a HP aero system (~100psi misters, pressure tank, solenoids, custom electronics, backup power, etc) that I've been testing and working the reliability bugs out of with tomatoes. I'm about ready to start using it with my mj clones now, and was wondering if you've got any recommendations for veg and/or flowering specific formulations for this type of system. It's drain to waste, and running from rain water (I'm out in the country, no heavy metals or acid rain here...).


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## kiwiboy1 (May 28, 2010)

Wow. I am so glad that I did not spend crap loads of money on chicken shit leachate. 
Now if I really knewn how much money I have wasted on Cannacoco A & B and PK13/14 over the last 18months, I would probably cry.


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## fatman7574 (May 29, 2010)

I posted formulas to mix your own aero drain to waste nutrients in the new thread I just posted. I am not ware of anyone selling a drain to waste nutrient formulation, especially not a mj specific formulation. It is strictly based upom mj tissue samples as nothing extra is need for buffering in a drain to waste system. With the typical recirculating reservoir nutes sold for mj specific hydro there is always extra phosphorus, calcium, magnesium and often iron. This extra makes up about 1/3 or more of the total ppm. For a quality nutrient delivery system that suck as the EC is run at low levels and most of waht was sprayed would be unusable or tal ken uop in excess or as is typical it would lock out part of the nitrogemn and phosphorus. The drain to waste nutrients exclude all the unneeded extras need for buffering in recirculation reservoirs or soil type medias such as Coco.

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/334895-nutrient-recipes.html

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/334895-nutrient-recipes.html


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## kiwiboy1 (May 29, 2010)

Hey Fatman, do you think this would make for a good substiute for plastic shims? It is plastic HDPE, and I can get it in Black.
I imagine one would have to irragate every hour with this for a medium.


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## jjfoo (May 29, 2010)

kiwi,

I just grew a plant in coco using grow more (same as GH), foliage pro, humic acid liquid, and cal mag. I liked it so mch I did my whole next crop that way. The plants are green and healthy with lots of nice forming buds. I am really happy with the results and plan to look into what my actual NPK's should be instead of just mixing equal parts of grow, mic, bloom. Maybe this is best but I havn't actually looked into. I have some in coco and some in coco/perlite (ran out of perlite). 

I never add back nutes. I only add back water to maintain my EC. When my res EC is to the point where I can't add enough water to finish my watering I dump it and make more. If I can get cheaper nutes I will just do drain to waste.

I'd like to see what you will be doing with your nutes.


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## MetalSmoker (May 29, 2010)

Hey Fatman,

What is up with the Molybdenum? I see the other formulations for *uchMasters and the others do not have it. can I use Sulfur Molybdate? will that increase sulfur too much? it's a small amount.


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## kiwiboy1 (May 29, 2010)

When I make up the stock solution, is there any order in which to add the dry ingredients. And is it add one ingredient at a time disslove then add then next?


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## AeroTrek (May 29, 2010)

Fatman,

I checked out your formula thread and noticed that the waste to drain Veg formula was missing. I scanned this thread and failed to locate it as well. Did I miss it? If so can you point me in the right direction or list it in your formula thread. Very much appreciated.


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## Scorpion Au (May 30, 2010)

Fatman, thanks for the link, somehow I had managed to miss it. Using aero and DTW solves SO MANY problems, and not just with the nutrients! I guess it's my engineering background kicking in, but I really like the complete control you get with this setup - thanks for your input in the HP Aero Trees thread too.

Oh, a quick question: what ph are you assuming for the formulas posted in the other thread? Do I need to balance my water to a certain point first?


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## kiwiboy1 (May 30, 2010)

Scorpion Au said:


> Oh, a quick question: what ph are you assuming for the formulas posted in the other thread? Do I need to balance my water to a certain point first?


I assume that the assumption is that the formulas and the diluted mixes are made up with RO Water.


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## NLXSK1 (May 30, 2010)

Scorpion Au said:


> Fatman, thanks for the link, somehow I had managed to miss it. Using aero and DTW solves SO MANY problems, and not just with the nutrients! I guess it's my engineering background kicking in, but I really like the complete control you get with this setup - thanks for your input in the HP Aero Trees thread too.
> 
> Oh, a quick question: what ph are you assuming for the formulas posted in the other thread? Do I need to balance my water to a certain point first?


Based on what happened in his medium pressure drain to waste thread I dont think Fatman will be answering these questions... :[


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## kiwiboy1 (May 30, 2010)

NLXSK1 said:


> Based on what happened in his medium pressure drain to waste thread I dont think Fatman will be answering these questions... :[


\
True true. 

I am thinking that fatman probably didn't intend to sound condensending, just a normal use of words in a acedemic world that isn't meant to be taken personally. But outside those acedemic walls what he says can come off as being insulting.

I would be quite happy for fatman to call me a child. Seeing as in the context of it all, I have very little experince in hydroponics so, I can be likein to a child that knows nothing.


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## jjfoo (May 30, 2010)

Fatman,

I've tried to ask this questions many times and have never gotten an answer. I think I am probably not being clear...

I'f you have fert salts and the plants consumes them, are you left with some other salt that the plant wont use? I've heard the term 'spent salts'. I ask this because I only add water to my res and I ham seeing that the plants seem to lower the EC more than I thought. If I only add RO water back to get the EC to my target I eventually run out of nutes. I'm trying to say that I would have thought the EC would have remained a little higher and I would dump my periodically, but in reality I just add water and the EC drops. It is almost if I could just not have run off and use the nutes up (in a few days in my environment). I would have expected the runoff to be higher EC.

If my EC is at the target is there other stuff that doesn't effect EC that will be accumulating in my medium? Should I be leaching my soil with water periodically?


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## budboy299 (May 30, 2010)

Hi there Fatman7574, firstly a word of appreciation for opening alot of eyes to the gross overpricing of commercial nutrients and preparations. It is a breath of air in an otherwise stifled room.

Have you given any thoughts to replicating House and Garden's, Aqua flakes? Alot of people seem to be gravitating to this bloom formula as it seems more ph stable than some others.
the specs are:

Part "A"
3.1-0-3.4
.3% ammoniacal Nitrogen
2.8% Nitrate Nitrogen
3.4% Soluble Potash

Derived from Calcium Nitrate, Ammonium Nitrate, Nitric Acid and Potassium Hydroxide


Part "B" is:

1.5-3.4-6.5
1.5% Nitrate Nitrogen
3.4% Available Phosphate
6.5% Soluble Potash
.8% Magnesium

Derived from Nitric Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Phosphoric Acid, and Magnesium Sulphate

Thanks in advance and keep on formulating for us eager learners!


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## fLaPzZ (May 30, 2010)

he's banned at the moment.


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## squarepush3r (May 30, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> This is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
> i.e the Lucas Formula
> 
> Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
> ...


question for fatman, or anyone that can answer.

It appears that all of your nitrogen is derived from Calcium Nitrate, however, according to Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_nitrate


> *Use in fertilizer*
> 
> The fertilizer grade (15.5-0-0 + 19% Ca) is popular in the greenhouse and hydroponics trades; it contains ammonium nitrate and water, as the "double salt" 5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O.


so it appears that Calcium Nitrate has a high % of ammonium nitrate (NH4) as its nitrogen base, yet I have heard you only want to strive for a ratio of 1:9 nitrate vs ammonium. So, does only using calcium nitrate make your formula too heavy on ammonium nitrate??


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## AeroTrek (May 30, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> question for fatman, or anyone that can answer.
> 
> It appears that all of your nitrogen is derived from Calcium Nitrate, however, according to Wikipedia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_nitrate
> ...


I asked this exact question of Fatman and correct me if I'm wrong Fatman, the response was that the additional amount of ammonium nitrate was negligable compared to the overall concentration of the mixture. Basically, it contains 15.5% ammonium nitrate in the calcium concentrate. The small addition to the formula will not affect the overall recipe.


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## squarepush3r (May 31, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> I asked this exact question of Fatman and correct me if I'm wrong Fatman, the response was that the additional amount of ammonium nitrate was negligable compared to the overall concentration of the mixture. Basically, it contains 15.5% ammonium nitrate in the calcium concentrate. The small addition to the formula will not affect the overall recipe.


 hmm, interesting, I hope this to be the case. I admittedly know very little about chemistry, but

5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O,

it looks like there are 
(NO3)2 + NO3 <- 3 nitrates
vs
NH4 <- 1 ammonium

so would that be 25% ammonium nearly double the recommended ratio?


EDIT: perhaps I am reading the coefficient wrong, but can anyone tell me about the 5 here
*5*Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O,
is that 5Ca or 5Ca(NO3)2? If it is the latter, then I think this does make sense, as we would have roughly 11 Nitrates to 1 Ammonium, so it would seem to fit the ~%9 profile


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## GreenThumbSucker (May 31, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> hmm, interesting, I hope this to be the case. I admittedly know very little about chemistry, but
> 
> 5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O,
> 
> ...


I think Fatman got banned. Too bad really, I learned more from him than the rest of the board combined. Probably banned under pressured from the Fertilizer companies because Fatman taught us how to make their formulas from scratch.


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## squarepush3r (May 31, 2010)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> I think Fatman got banned. Too bad really, I learned more from him than the rest of the board combined. Probably banned under pressured from the Fertilizer companies because Fatman taught us how to make their formulas from scratch.


 interesting, it was either pressure from fertilizer companies, or his somewhat "coarse" personality.

it seems like all the boards sponsors are seed companies, so I'm not sure if the fertilizer companies have an influence? oh well I am going to try to dig up some more info about that chemistry formula for Calcium Nitrate..


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## patlpp (May 31, 2010)

He got too many complaints from thin-skinned pussies attempting to save face when their ignorance was exposed by FATMAN.


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## doc111 (May 31, 2010)

patlpp said:


> He got too many complaints from thin-skinned pussies attempting to save face when their ignorance was exposed by FATMAN.


......................


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## patlpp (May 31, 2010)

Speak of the devil,frickin trolls ^^^^^^ LOL LOL I KNEW she'd come out of her hole LOL LOL


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## patlpp (May 31, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> question for fatman, or anyone that can answer.
> 
> It appears that all of your nitrogen is derived from Calcium Nitrate, however, according to Wikipedia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_nitrate
> ...


Its my understanding that the addition of the Potassium Nitrate KNO3 will knock that ammonium ratio down quit a bit too


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## doc111 (May 31, 2010)

patlpp said:


> Speak of the devil,frickin trolls ^^^^^^ LOL LOL I KNEW she'd come out of her hole LOL LOL


...................


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## doc111 (Jun 1, 2010)

For some reason there is a member who thinks I am responsible for fatman's banning. That couldn't be further from the truth. I have been involved in 3 seperate minor altercations with the fatman, this much is true. I also tried on at least 2 occasions to apologize to fatman for my role in these squabbles. He basically told me to get fucked. This last altercation which began in this thread; https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/334355-fatmans-medium-pressure-large-tube.html ............I asked him why he wouldn't post pics of his setup. He had said he was totally legal so I couldn't, and still can't, understand why he won't post pics of his setup without plants. We had a few words and it didn't seem like a big deal to me. Then he starts sending me threatening pm's. I ignored the first one and by the second one I responded telling him if he didn't like what I had to say to put me on ignore. He then forwards my pm to the mods and complains about me. This particular mod pm'd me letting me know what fatman had done and that I was in no trouble because there was nothing wrong with my pm and that I had broken no rules. I was also told by this particular mod that the fatman reported people on a daily basis and was basically all about starting trouble. I assured the mod that I would leave fatman alone. *2 days after I had posted in fatman's thread*, another member started giving him a hard time. There was a minor altercation between the two of them, some posts got deleted by the mods, and fatman was banned. Now, we all know that fatman was anything but a nice guy but as much as I disagreed with his social charms I never wanted to see him get banned. I never reported him to the mods. He evidently was reporting anybody who ever disagreed with him though. The mods can't stand that shit. This is supposed to be an adult site and we should all be able to handle ourselves and treat others with respect. Anybody that is constantly running to the mods reporting people when they are as much at fault is probably not going to be too popular with the mods.


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## desch (Jun 1, 2010)

thanks, im there too


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## jjfoo (Jun 1, 2010)

he has been crucified for getting people to think, we can't have too many people thinking on their own, it could have negative affects on snake oil sales

I don't care how rude someone is, if they are saying things that can be backed up in a lab and measured I can take their rudeness... At work (I'm a computer programer and work with a lot of special hardware) I often work with engineers that are really talented and really arrogant, I would rather work with these types than say people who are just try to get a pay check. Some of my mentors are very unstable and sometimes treat me harshly, but I know that if I can just keep in mind that I'm not looking to be made to feel good, but rather get to the facts, it is all good.

I've seen fatman argue with people and make them look really ignorant. They could be grateful to have their ignorance exposed or they could get their pride hurt and get pissed. The ones that get prideful and pissed should be thrown out of these forums if these forums are about getting a better understanding. If the forums are just fronts to sell stuff and promote products, then people like fatman *should* be removed. After all, it is business here, not science.


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## desch (Jun 1, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> he has been crucified for getting people to think, we can't have too many people thinking on their own, it could have negative affects on snake oil sales
> 
> I don't care how rude someone is, if they are saying things that can be backed up in a lab and measured I can take their rudeness... At work (I'm a computer programer and work with a lot of special hardware) I often work with engineers that are really talented and really arrogant, I would rather work with these types than say people who are just try to get a pay check. Some of my mentors are very unstable and sometimes treat me harshly, but I know that if I can just keep in mind that I'm not looking to be made to feel good, but rather get to the facts, it is all good.
> 
> I've seen fatman argue with people and make them look really ignorant. They could be grateful to have their ignorance exposed or they could get their pride hurt and get pissed. The ones that get prideful and pissed should be thrown out of these forums if these forums are about getting a better understanding. If the forums are just fronts to sell stuff and promote products, then people like fatman *should* be removed. After all, it is business here, not science.


Absolutely!

I look at it this way, there are NO perfect people. Usually people that have a extremely gifted ability tend to lack some things in other areas. Fatman is a genius but doesnt have the grace to ignore his naysayers and continue with his teachings. Then to compound that, the people who need his teachings let their ego's get in the way and resort to foolishness because they cant battle with wit. It becomes a on-going cycle. I would rather put up with someones shortcomings so that I can move forward with whatever I need done. I think others need to do the same.


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## doc111 (Jun 1, 2010)

jjfoo said:


> he has been crucified for getting people to think, we can't have too many people thinking on their own, it could have negative affects on snake oil sales
> 
> I don't care how rude someone is, if they are saying things that can be backed up in a lab and measured I can take their rudeness... At work (I'm a computer programer and work with a lot of special hardware) I often work with engineers that are really talented and really arrogant, I would rather work with these types than say people who are just try to get a pay check. Some of my mentors are very unstable and sometimes treat me harshly, but I know that if I can just keep in mind that I'm not looking to be made to feel good, but rather get to the facts, it is all good.
> 
> I've seen fatman argue with people and make them look really ignorant. They could be grateful to have their ignorance exposed or they could get their pride hurt and get pissed. The ones that get prideful and pissed should be thrown out of these forums if these forums are about getting a better understanding. If the forums are just fronts to sell stuff and promote products, then people like fatman *should* be removed. After all, it is business here, not science.


Now, let's examine this for a minute. Every grower I've ever known is arrogant, myself included. This is a site full of growers. You get all these arrogant, egocentric personalities together and without some rules and social norms you would have an all out melee, constantly! Why should a particular person get special treatment because they are "smarter" or a "better" grower? His rudeness isn't the only thing that got him banned. There are always 2 sides to every story and without both of them you've got half a book! I don't know about everyone else but a half a book is pretty useless to me. 

There are many other knowledgeable people on this site and if the fatman was your only reason for being here well..............you're really missing out.


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## doc111 (Jun 1, 2010)

patlpp said:


> So don&#8217;t come out acting all innocent making nice when you know you were part of it TROLL. Like I said, thin-skinned pussies trying to saving face was FATMAN's problem.


You have no clue what my intentions are or anything about me yet you are making *ASS*umptions again. When I apologize, I'm sincere, or I won't apologize. I also tried apologizing to you and you know it. If I'm such a phoney why not post the PM for everyone to see how insincere I am? I explained my version of what happened. I'm not going around calling you names and insulting you am I? I'm done with your drama. Call me all the names you want. Insult my thread, I could care less. I listed my sources and yes, some of it is copy and pasted. Is that suddenly a crime? I neve made any wild claims. I did do the research though. Something which had not previously been done on here evidently. And I will point out that* YOU CAME TO ME FOR HELP IN ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT WATER*! Now all of a sudden my thread sucks. Unbelievable dude! I came into the fatman's thread to see his setup because I am planning on building an aero setup. I know about fatman's prison drama but I don't see how posting pics of something that is perfectly legal and without plants is a problem. I'm not the only one who wanted to see pics of his setup. What you fail to acknowledge is the fact that the fatman also instigated problems with me on multiple occasions. Sending me unsolicited pm's threatening to go to the mods and calling me names! Yet the fatman can do no wrong in your eyes. Your girlfriend is gone. Drop it and go to the site she's at now already! I'm going to drop this now as I've said all I can and don't wish to continue this pointless banter with you any longer. 

If you don't mind I'd like you to explain to everybody exactly how I'm responsible for the fatman's banning when I had stopped posting in his thread 2 days prior to his banning. I had no correpsondence with him for 2 days and it was a completely seperate incident which got him banned. Oh yeah, and I never reported any of his posts or his pm's to the mods. And since you like to say I have to have the last word, I'm going to go ahead and let you have the last word this time so fire away. Have a nice day.


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## doc111 (Jun 1, 2010)

If he begged a mod and promised to behave I bet they would let him come back.


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## fLaPzZ (Jun 2, 2010)

He told the truth, and some people don't like hearing the truth.


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## doc111 (Jun 2, 2010)

fLaPzZ said:


> He told the truth, and some people don't like hearing the truth.


He also instigated problems with people and then snitched on them to the mods. I always thought cannabis growers didn't like snitches and here was one of the biggest ones this site has ever seen. I just don't get it.


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## patlpp (Jun 2, 2010)

doc111 said:


> I just don't get it.


That's obvious


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## doc111 (Jun 2, 2010)

patlpp said:


> That's obvious


Lmfao!!! You just don't give up do you? You're not getting to me, just making me laugh. How about a hug?


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## patlpp (Jun 2, 2010)

doc111 said:


> And since you like to say I have to have the last word, I'm going to go ahead and let you have the last word this time so fire away. Have a nice day.


I see..........


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## patlpp (Jun 2, 2010)

Giving you a taste of your own medicine "Doc".


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## fdd2blk (Jun 2, 2010)

fatman was banned after REPEATED warnings. I banned him.


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## patlpp (Jun 2, 2010)

i'm really sorry for all the bad things i said. i have sand in my verginer.


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## doc111 (Jun 2, 2010)

patlpp said:


> i'm really sorry for all the bad things i said. i have sand in my verginer.


Bwahahaha!!! My sides hurt, stop it! I did see what you wrote before it got edited. I'm glad to be held in such high regard by somebody. Nothing but love baby, nothing but love.


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## patlpp (Jun 2, 2010)

You gotta sleep sometime fdd


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## doc111 (Jun 2, 2010)

patlpp said:


> I want to eat your pussy doc......


Somebody got butt hurt! Sorry, I'm a lesbian. If you're a woman then I'm down.


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## fdd2blk (Jun 2, 2010)

patlpp said:


> You gotta sleep sometime fdd


and you call me the fag.


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## fdd2blk (Jun 2, 2010)

another fatman thread to disappear into the sunset.

closed


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