# Why I don't believe in god



## st0wandgrow (May 25, 2012)

I grew up believing in god. It was something that I took for granted, and never questioned. At some point during my teenage years I began questioning this position. I honestly don't recall a single event, or person that changed my mind, but it started to set my bullshit-meter off quite often.

Fast forward to today .... at the age of 37 I still maintain that there is no such thing as a god. The weird thing is, I've never really examined WHY I feel this way. Reading through this section of RIU has kind of challenged me to engage myself, and really pin down my thinking on this.

Here is why I don't believe in a god:

1) Dinosaurs. If a god is behind this all, and he made us in his likeness (I'm flattered), then why did he fuck around for millions of years with dinosaurs and the like? Did he create them, only to kill them and let them marinate under ground for millions of years so we would stumble upon them and have fuel for our cars?

2) If there *is* a creator, then who created the creator? And who created the creator of the creator? How far back does this creator family tree go? 

3) Talking snakes and magic apples. The bible is filled with ridiculous claims such as these. Why would god impress people with his magic tricks back then, and give us nothing to believe in now? My take is that people had no idea what lighting, thunder, rain, etc was 2000 years ago, and a man living in the clouds was all they could come up with to answer this.

4) Religion. There are more flavors of religion than there are Ben and Jerry's ice cream. If there is a god, why are there so many different versions? 

5) Science. Science has given us some answers, and will continue to fill in the holes. I don't know if we have the capacity to ever truly know where we came from, and how it all started, but science has at least connected some dots for us. Religion, not so much. 

These points obviously don't touch on everything that shapes my belief (or lack there of), but they account for a good deal of why I think the way I do when it comes to god and religion.

What points can you detail that help shape the way you feel about this?


----------



## Dwezelitsame (May 25, 2012)

extraterrestrial.................................


----------



## MajorCoco (May 25, 2012)

Atheism isn't a big deal here in the UK, though I'm aware it is very different across the pond. So I'll be interested to see how people respond!
Despite having an Irish Catholic mum I was atheist (I'm actually an a-deist I think, technically) almost as soon as I started sunday school. She's atheist too now. It think it just makes sense...when you really think about it.

I think you've put together a pretty solid case there anyway...


----------



## tyler.durden (May 25, 2012)

Good post, OP. My 11-year-old said to me the other day, "If there is a god, why do the things he made have so many design flaws?" Sun can give us cancer, and we would probably die from our own teeth if it wasn't for the dentist. Even _we_ could design things better than he did, and we're just humans..." He went on to name similar observations. Always makes me smile. I think one reason, stemming from emotion, that some people don't want to believe in a god because if he were real, we would be living in a cosmos created by a petty/mean/selfish retard who does things in a very ineffective manner. That would be difficult to accept...


----------



## Ringsixty (May 25, 2012)

well everybody wants to believe is something. if you believe in yourself....your god.


----------



## BA142 (May 25, 2012)

I was raised Catholic and forced to attend Sunday school until I was 12. My belief in God was eroded at a young age in my Sunday school class...I was aware of other Religions at a young age and I always used to ask the teacher why Catholicism was the truth but not any other Religion...her response was something like "Well we all know that Jesus Christ is our lord and savior and he died for our sins, that's why!"

That turned me off really quickly. I took a lot of science courses (Anthropology, Biology, Physics, Chemistry etc...) and that really convinced me that life as we know it is WAY too complicated to simply credit a Deity.

I'm a Nihilist but I love my life. Life is just a game.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (May 25, 2012)

^Existential nihilism for the win. Accepting the absurdity of existence, yet choosing to live happily regardless. 

Tyler, it gives me an astounding sense of joy to know that at least one human in this world is being raised with nothing but the truth, you are a good father, and your son seems to be such a smart young dude.

Wand, your metaphore on Ben and Jerries ice cream made me laugh soooo fuckin hard! Thank you so much!


----------



## drolove (May 25, 2012)

haha...ive argued many if not all of those points many times with hardcore christians and i find it hilarious because every time it ends up coming down to. "you just gotta believe". none of them can ever answer the questions. 

THANKS FOR THIS POST YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD ARGUEMENT


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 26, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Good post, OP. My 11-year-old said to me the other day, "If there is a god, why do the things he made have so many design flaws?" Sun can give us cancer, and we would probably die from our own teeth if it wasn't for the dentist. Even _we_ could design things better than he did, and we're just humans..." He went on to name similar observations. Always makes me smile. I think one reason, stemming from emotion, that some people don't want to believe in a god because if he were real, we would be living in a cosmos created by a petty/mean/selfish retard who does things in a very ineffective manner. That would be difficult to accept...


That's really interesting to hear about your son, Tyler. I have a 10 year old daughter, and she is just beginning to ask questions about this. Is your son coming to these conclusions on his own, or do you feel you've had a hand in shaping his early beliefs on a deity? I'm not sure if I should simply present both sides of the equation and let her figure this out on her own, or if I should let her know exactly how I feel ..... or something in between??


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 26, 2012)

drolove said:


> haha...ive argued many if not all of those points many times with hardcore christians and i find it hilarious because every time it ends up coming down to. "you just gotta believe". none of them can ever answer the questions.
> 
> THANKS FOR THIS POST YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD ARGUEMENT


Yeah, I get the same thing when ever the topic comes up around my religious friends/family.

In a way I'd like to be proven wrong. I really like the idea of being able to spend eternity with loved ones, but inevitably I get the same answer that you do. Point to *something* for me! Give me something tangible that would make me reconsider .... not just "you have to believe"!


----------



## afrawfraw (May 26, 2012)

I am a father of 3. My approach was not to teach my children what to think, but how to think. My youngest's "Favorite" god is Atlas. I educated them to ALL religions at the same time, to give them awareness that every human culture has their own story on the beginning. My older two laugh at their peers, not for believing, but why they believe. "If you have to change the way you normally think to accept an idea, stop yourself right there." 

Compare how people approach religion to how they approach any other facet of their life. If one wants to buy a car, one drives a bunch of cars, researches reliability, considers MPG, age, mileage, Etc.

If one wants to grow plants, one must seek science. Just like buying a car, or house, or dinner. If you don't, and just listen to the salesman, your left with a yard ornament. Just saying.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 26, 2012)

Teach children how to think, not what to think.


That's some really good advice, afraw!


----------



## Geronimo420 (May 26, 2012)

I serve Apophis ! - a devoted stargate fan.


----------



## tyler.durden (May 26, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's really interesting to hear about your son, Tyler. I have a 10 year old daughter, and she is just beginning to ask questions about this. Is your son coming to these conclusions on his own, or do you feel you've had a hand in shaping his early beliefs on a deity? I'm not sure if I should simply present both sides of the equation and let her figure this out on her own, or if I should let her know exactly how I feel ..... or something in between??


Hey, Stow! I was careful for limiting his exposure to any magical thinking; no santa, Disney (hate their egalitarian bullshit), jesus, religion, etc. for the early years of his life. What was interesting was he never speculated that there could be anything outside the physical realm on his own. When he saw a magic act/trick, he would get wide-eyed and ask, 'how did they do that?' and we'd research the trick on the internet and see the mechanics behind it (his favorite show was that Magic Exposed show where the dude in a mask showed in detail how the heavies did their tricks. Not only for the tricks, but for the unbelievable women assistants the guy had ). He was amazed on his own how vulnerable our minds were to being fooled, and started to speculate on how tricks were done even before the research. He started to figure them out on his own without looking it up, 'She ran off the stage while they were misdirecting us with X', and he'd be correct. His mom's sister and I are professional musicians, and he started Suzuki guitar at 3 years old. We'd regularly gave recitals in churches, so without asking he grew up assuming that each and every church was simply a recital hall, and that all the parishioners were just attending a musical concert each week! At about age 7, we walked into a church while a service was still going on, and while I went to go warm up for my recital he wanted to just watch, seemingly transfixed on the spectacle. He had a LOT of questions afterward: what were they doing? Who were these guys god and jesus, and why couldn't they make it to the service (seemed a bit rude to him that all these folks got together while they didn't bother to show up). I explained their belief system to him and he asked, 'So they are all having fun pretending?' I laughed and explained that they were not. 'Even the ADULTS?' he asked, I nodded. 'What's wrong with them? What happened to them?' That was when I started to explain that most of the planet has this religious belief, and the specific dogma behind the major ones. He didn't think it was funny, and I had never seen him more perplexed. He never even asked why I or our circle of friends didn't believe, only why others did. When he discovered a lot of our own family members believed such things, he would question each until the answers got less and less coherent, and more and more uncomfortable, and I would pull him away. 
He still considers magical thinking an awful infliction, and has made it his responsibility to inform his friends about reality, and we've gotten many angry phone calls that his friends don't believe in santa, and started to question their families' faith at home. I attempt to explain that we must be respectful of others beliefs and to leave each family to their own devices, and he still comes back with, 'How can you respect that?' I'm still struggling with that question myself...


----------



## afrawfraw (May 26, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Stow! I was careful for limiting his exposure to any magical thinking; no santa, Disney (hate their egalitarian bullshit), jesus, religion, etc. for the early years of his life. What was interesting was he never speculated that there could be anything outside the physical realm on his own. When he saw a magic act/trick, he would get wide-eyed and ask, 'how did they do that?' and we'd research the trick on the internet and see the mechanics behind it (his favorite show was that Magic Exposed show where the dude in a mask showed in detail how the heavies did their tricks. Not only for the tricks, but for the unbelievable women assistants the guy had ). He was amazed on his own how vulnerable our minds were to being fooled, and started to speculate on how tricks were done even before the research. He started to figure them out on his own without looking it up, 'She ran off the stage while they were misdirecting us with X', and he'd be correct. His mom's sister and I are professional musicians, and he started Suzuki guitar at 3 years old. We'd regularly gave recitals in churches, so without asking he grew up assuming that each and every church was simply a recital hall, and that all the parishioners were just attending a musical concert each week! At about age 7, we walked into a church while a service was still going on, and while I went to go warm up for my recital he wanted to just watch, seemingly transfixed on the spectacle. He had a LOT of questions afterward: what were they doing? Who were these guys god and jesus, and why couldn't they make it to the service (seemed a bit rude to him that all these folks got together while they didn't bother to show up). I explained their belief system to him and he asked, 'So they are all having fun pretending?' I laughed and explained that they were not. 'Even the ADULTS?' he asked, I nodded. 'What's wrong with them? What happened to them?' That was when I started to explain that most of the planet has this religious belief, and the specific dogma behind the major ones. He didn't think it was funny, and I had never seen him more perplexed. He never even asked why I or our circle of friends didn't believe, only why others did. When he discovered a lot of our own family members believed such things, he would question each until the answers got less and less coherent, and more and more uncomfortable, and I would pull him away.
> He still considers magical thinking an awful infliction, and has made it his responsibility to inform his friends about reality, and we've gotten many angry phone calls that his friends don't believe in santa, and started to question their families' faith at home. I attempt to explain that we must be respectful of others beliefs and to leave each family to their own devices, and he still comes back with, 'How can you respect that?' I'm still struggling with that question myself...


Indeed. I detest those multiple symbol bumber stickers that say, "Coexist". Should we really tolerate rampant delusions?


----------



## tyler.durden (May 26, 2012)

afrawfraw said:


> Indeed. I detest those multiple symbol bumber stickers that say, "Coexist". Should we really tolerate rampant delusions?


I saw a bumper sticker a few weeks ago that read, 'So many Christians, So few Lions'. That guy had balls


----------



## drive (May 26, 2012)

wasn't Atlas a titan a father to the gods


----------



## afrawfraw (May 26, 2012)

drive said:


> wasn't Atlas a titan a father to the gods


In greek mythology, yes. He was paired with the moon ruler and was punished for siding with the Olympians. All Titans are gods, but not all gods are Titans.


----------



## drive (May 26, 2012)

holding up the earth for eternity has to suck


----------



## drive (May 26, 2012)

who was the moon ruler?


----------



## Calijuana (May 27, 2012)

The fact that we don't know, and may never know the precise size of the universe means something to me, there are so many reasons a deity doesn't make sense, the first that came to me I think was the amount of different religions. It really snowballs from blind belief to rational disbelief once you start thinking about it.


----------



## afrawfraw (May 27, 2012)

In contexts where a Titan and a Titaness are assigned each of the seven planetary powers, Atlas is paired with Phoebe and governs the moon. He had three brothers:Prometheus, Epimetheus and Menoetius.

Taken from Wiki. 

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Atlas_(mythology)

So here's another source.


----------



## Zaehet Strife (May 27, 2012)

Greek Mythology... eventually it will be Christian Mythology, Judaism Mythology... etc. etc. etc. As the human race searches for truth within the realms of science, rather than made up fantasy and willed delusion.


----------



## Nice Ol Bud (May 27, 2012)

Bro I love every comment on here.
Full of "Realizing" truths.. 

I talked to a black man(no rascism intended) awhile back and he told me god is the flow of energy of all living things.
Only thing I disagree is when people talk about, who created god. When the picture of god is a misunderstanding.
I think jesus is a very selfish portrail of humans and their are so many other species in the world, why a MAN(HUMAN) on a cross.

What hapens when dogs get interlectual. Is their going to be a K9 on a cross? Feel my drift?

Anyways my interpratation of god is the flow of energy through everything. If theirs dark matter theirs light matter, aka energy.
Thats god, god is life, satan is dark.. its just filled with a bunch of talking whales and dancing clouds(BS).

Im going to end this right here cause I forget i dont like talking bout this online cause everyone in this would is different and theirs not enough emotion in texts,
and everyone has their own intrupations on things and this leads to wars with the narrowminded ones who dont respect all opinions.
Good bye.


----------



## BillyBonnie (May 27, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I saw a bumper sticker a few weeks ago that read, 'So many Christians, So few Lions'. That guy had balls


What would you say he had if his bumper sticker had read "So Many Muslims, So Few Waterboards"?


----------



## tyler.durden (May 27, 2012)

BillyBonnie said:


> What would you say he had if his bumper sticker had read "So Many Muslims, So Few Waterboards"?


Why, he'd have even more balls because they are perceived to be even less tolerant than christians, Emilio...


----------



## BillyBonnie (May 27, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Why, he'd have even more balls because they are perceived to be even less tolerant than christians, Emilio...


I guess you're right Ty...


----------



## drive (May 28, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> Greek Mythology... eventually it will be Christian Mythology, Judaism Mythology... etc. etc. etc. As the human race searches for truth within the realms of science, rather than made up fantasy and willed delusion.


Yeah buddy! have you noticed that all of the organized religions go thru a turbulant time in their teen years. That is why we see such trouble coming from islam now


----------



## afrawfraw (May 28, 2012)

drive said:


> Yeah buddy! have you noticed that all of the organized religions go thru a turbulant time in their teen years. That is why we see such trouble coming from islam now


ROFLMAO. So you believe the Muslim faith is in it's infancy!? Or were you referring to the "Nation of Islam" founded in 1930?


----------



## drive (May 29, 2012)

No muslims are in there teens. the religion was formed about 600 ad so this time frame is about when Christians got all jiggy with the crusades.


----------



## afrawfraw (May 29, 2012)

drive said:


> No muslims are in there teens. the religion was formed about 600 ad so this time frame is about when Christians got all jiggy with the crusades.


Muhammad was a profit, not the creator of Islam. Even if we agree that 600 is the birth of the Islam faith, they are only 150-200 years behind Christians. They both branched from Judaic beliefs 450 some odd years AFTER Jesus died.


----------



## smok3h (May 29, 2012)

afrawfraw said:


> "If you have to change the way you normally think to accept an idea, stop yourself right there."


Overall I agree with your sentiments on religion and what you teach your children, but I couldn't disagree with this quote more. It's this mentality that allows bigotry, racism, and other terrible things in the world to persist. Please don't get me wrong, i'm not saying you're a bigot or a racist (rather I'm just trying to use obvious examples to make a point), what I'm saying is that in order for a racist to stop being a racist, they need to change the way they think about things, no? They need to change the way they view people of other ethnic backgrounds, to accept the idea that these people are equal. 

Now, perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote. Perhaps what you meant was something akin to, "If you have to abandon critical thinking to accept an idea, then stop right there." If that's the case, then yes, I'd agree, and you can disregard the above paragraph.


----------



## afrawfraw (May 30, 2012)

smok3h said:


> Overall I agree with your sentiments on religion and what you teach your children, but I couldn't disagree with this quote more. It's this mentality that allows bigotry, racism, and other terrible things in the world to persist. Please don't get me wrong, i'm not saying you're a bigot or a racist (rather I'm just trying to use obvious examples to make a point), what I'm saying is that in order for a racist to stop being a racist, they need to change the way they think about things, no? They need to change the way they view people of other ethnic backgrounds, to accept the idea that these people are equal.
> 
> Now, perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote. Perhaps what you meant was something akin to, "If you have to abandon critical thinking to accept an idea, then stop right there." If that's the case, then yes, I'd agree, and you can disregard the above paragraph.


WRONG!

And right. 

The thing is, most people use critical thinking every day. Seat belts. Car insurance. Shopping for the best deal on lamb shanks. When ever we need to accomplish something, most (I know of whom you speak that comprise the rest) people use a very scientific approach. Even a racist will talk to a black guy to cash his pay check. But it's when you abandon the rational thought patterns we use, I.E. Red means stop, that things go south. In order to embrace racism, or bigotry, you can NOT navigate through the justification without changing the parameters of your logic.


----------



## afrawfraw (May 30, 2012)

I guess if I'd said, "If you have to change what you think to accept an idea..." I'd look pretty stupid.


----------



## smok3h (May 30, 2012)

Ahh, right on. I get what you're saying now.


----------



## Oscar Zeta Acosta (May 31, 2012)

This kind of debate always makes me chuckle.

Well one thing I will say is that I don't believe in an old bearded guy sitting on clouds, but do believe that something made the universe. It could simply be a form of energy with no intelliegence that couldnt relate to ourselves yet is still responsible for all of creation. I am in awe of it, but don't fear it or use it as some kind of guide to bettering myself as a person as you might find with the roles of many other religions.


----------



## drive (May 31, 2012)

I don't believe in the "Old guy on a cloud" either. I do wonder if there is heaven and hell. Do we do good for goodness sake? Is there an eternal reward?Are we so small and insignificant that we can't possibly know or grasp the concept of afterlife?


----------



## ineverveg (May 31, 2012)

my 4 year old keeps coming out of school saying god this and jesus that and worrying that we dont have an ark ect.
do they need to shove this down our kids throats at all ,never mind a 4 year old. 
it should be up to familys to promote religion, i dont want my son worrying about going to hell if he is naughty.

why is it though that when things are really bad and out of my control, i myself have looked up and prayed like fuck that all will be ok lol.


----------



## drive (May 31, 2012)

thats when you need salvation the most


----------



## Chief Walkin Eagle (May 31, 2012)

ineverveg said:


> my 4 year old keeps coming out of school saying god this and jesus that and worrying that we dont have an ark ect.
> do they need to shove this down our kids throats at all ,never mind a 4 year old.
> it should be up to familys to promote religion, i dont want my son worrying about going to hell if he is naughty.
> 
> why is it though that when things are really bad and out of my control, i myself have looked up and prayed like fuck that all will be ok lol.


Thats messed up man, I'd be PISSED if teachers were preachin religion at preschool to my kids... If I ever have kids lol


----------



## drive (May 31, 2012)

unless its sunday school, what day does is it


----------



## Nice Ol Bud (May 31, 2012)

*














5-31-09 <3


ME & UB <3














​




*


----------



## Psuedo (May 31, 2012)

All reply's are from a Christians (mine) point of view. Everything atheist ever say to me are usually scientific things that are to disprove god. Usually their scientific facts only help me support my belief in god. I merge their scientific facts with what I believe, and it only supports those ideas more. 


st0wandgrow said:


> 1) Dinosaurs. If a god is behind this all, and he made us in his likeness (I'm flattered), then why did he fuck around for millions of years with dinosaurs and the like? Did he create them, only to kill them and let them marinate under ground for millions of years so we would stumble upon them and have fuel for our cars?


That's what I believe yes. Fuel, things for the earth, plants, tree's, etc. If he's all knowing then he did it for a reason. All the way until the last day of the earth.
Another thing on this most Christians don't believe the earth has been around for millions of years. To support the idea of the earth not being millions of years old he can do anything. Speed up the process, just make it appear, whatever. Kind of like superman moving the earth backwards to reverse time. Could he not speed up time? He created time itself he can destroy it. You can grow a plant, you can destroy it. The bible says *"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.*" One day in heaven is like 1000 years. And 1000 years will feel like one day.





st0wandgrow said:


> 2) If there *is* a creator, then who created the creator? And who created the creator of the creator? How far back does this creator family tree go?


 Who knows. Their was nothing before god. So if their was nothing then nothing can't create god. Only god existed. It also says something in the bible that man could not handle seeing god. *"The view of such perfect righteousness would destroy us. " 
*Only in heaven can you see god, because *"God is of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness" As long as we are tainted by sin*."When god did talk to people on earth pre-christian times he would not come down in his form. Only the form of men. And that would drain all the energy from those who were around.




st0wandgrow said:


> 3) Talking snakes and magic apples. The bible is filled with ridiculous claims such as these. Why would god impress people with his magic tricks back then, and give us nothing to believe in now? My take is that people had no idea what lighting, thunder, rain, etc was 2000 years ago, and a man living in the clouds was all they could come up with to answer this.


 I'm sure if you look at history you will certainly see men were smarter than what you think. They knew what lightning, thunder, and rain were...
God didn't make talking snakes, and magic apples to impress people. He has no reason to try and impress people. He gives you nothing to believe in now, because exactly what you're doing. He wants you to form your own opinions, and beliefs. Let you choose without his influence, because that shit wasn't working when he did visit people. People didn't listen to them when he did show them "magic tricks". If you read the first part of the bible the hebrew bible where god did visit us on earth you will see how crazy shit was then. An eye for an eye literally. Things were so violent then he had to take his hand off of it, and let people do their own thing.





st0wandgrow said:


> 4) Religion. There are more flavors of religion than there are Ben and Jerry's ice cream. If there is a god, why are there so many different versions?



Their are so many different versions, because the devil wants to distract. The fight of good, and evil. Heaven and hell. God will try to win you, as will satan. Satan created religions false deity's to distract you from the truth, or make you doubt, or choose the wrong thing. 



st0wandgrow said:


> 5) Science. Science has given us some answers, and will continue to fill in the holes. I don't know if we have the capacity to ever truly know where we came from, and how it all started, but science has at least connected some dots for us. Religion, not so much.


Science has given us some answers, but only because god has made it possible. We could not of achieved what we achieved if god had not made it possible. 

All I have to do is look at everything, the coulds, the sky, the moon, the sun, the tree's, any damn thing. And it only makes me know that god is real. How could anything be if something had not created it. How could your car be if something had not created it. How could your mcdonalds be if something had not created it. How could the moon be if something had not created it. Yea the big bang, space rock crashing into each other. But do you really want to say hey all that shit just happened, and the muck just formed, and we all just sprouted little fish legs, and we all just happened.



tyler.durden said:


> Good post, OP. My 11-year-old said to me the other day, "If there is a god, why do the things he made have so many design flaws?" Sun can give us cancer, and we would probably die from our own teeth if it wasn't for the dentist. Even _we_ could design things better than he did, and we're just humans..." He went on to name similar observations. Always makes me smile. I think one reason, stemming from emotion, that some people don't want to believe in a god because if he were real, we would be living in a cosmos created by a petty/mean/selfish retard who does things in a very ineffective manner. That would be difficult to accept...


Design flaws. Not really. Sun gives us cancer to die. Our teeth kill us to die. If everyone lived for thousands of years always then the earth would be filled up by now, and their would be no more space, and we would all die due to the lack of food, and pollution, and etc. Cleanliness is next to godliness. If you don't want to die from your teeth clean them. Your body is a temple. Before dentist people dying from bad teeth wasn't some kind of epidemic. Maybe he allowed people to die from bad teeth so he could infect bad people, so they would die, and not harm other people. Doing things for a reason. You're right we're only humans, and you're wrong we can't design things better than he can. Can you make something perfect down to the molecular level? Is a pool  ball perfect? No look at it microscopically and it's rough. God could make it absolutely perfect down to the molecular level. Can humans make the earth, or a sun? Nah. 



Calijuana said:


> The fact that we don't know, and may never know the precise size of the universe means something to me, there are so many reasons a deity doesn't make sense, the first that came to me I think was the amount of different religions. It really snowballs from blind belief to rational disbelief once you start thinking about it.


 The size of the universe doesn't matter. It's all empty space. It's nothing, so what does nothing matter? Nothing. The heavens were split to make the universe. The universe is like a big clock asteroids spinning round, and round until the timer goes off and a big rock hits the earth, and destroys it.


Just as when me, and my athiest friend have these religious debates his points only make me strengthen my views, and I cannot sway his opinions. All I can really do is say you just have to believe, because that's all you can really say. I will give you any answer I can that isn't "you just have to believe." to try and sway you, but in the end you just have to believe.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 1, 2012)

Psuedo said:


> All reply's are from a Christians (mine) point of view. Everything atheist ever say to me are usually scientific things that are to disprove god. Usually their scientific facts only help me support my belief in god. I merge their scientific facts with what I believe, and it only supports those ideas more.
> 
> 
> That's what I believe yes. Fuel, things for the earth, plants, tree's, etc. If he's all knowing then he did it for a reason. All the way until the last day of the earth.
> ...


"FAITH". The ONLY way religion works is faith. Because without faith, you would call your minister a blathering idiot. "Faith" forces you to change the parameters of your logic. Why does deductive reasoning work for every other scenario in life EXCEPT religion? Hmmmm. Also, the universe is not, "Nothing." Just because you were sold a religion, doesn't mean you should ignore science. There are two earth type planets we have discovered SO FAR. We are also on the verge of discovering how matter can shed mass. This would answer the "Something from nothing".

Since we're on the Bible, some good 'ol Christian reading for ya!

Exodus 21:1
Judges 11:29
Isaiah 13:16
Hosea 13:16
Psalms 137:9
Joshua 6
Judges 21

In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.
He condones slavery, child abuse, as well as devaluing females. 

You should REALLY ask yourself, if GOD is without time, why would he state the same ignorant bull shit that farmers 1,500 years ago thought. The reason why Atheists are in awe is because if you hadn't been sold a religion, you would NEVER condone these behaviors, ever. The same passage that condemns homosexuals ALSO condemns shaving your face! So grow a fat beard before screaming at gays, or GOD will hate you.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 1, 2012)

If there were a text from an "All Powerful Being", it would be written in Mathematics, silly.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 1, 2012)

Psuedo said:


> The size of the universe doesn't matter. It's all empty space. It's nothing, so what does nothing matter? Nothing.


This is why religion is not allowed in public schools, in case any one was wondering.


----------



## drive (Jun 1, 2012)

What was before the big bang


----------



## drive (Jun 1, 2012)

And don't say the big foreplay


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 1, 2012)

drive said:


> And don't say the big foreplay


There is not enough information to draw a reasonable conclusion. My money is NOT on a jealous genocidal maniac, or a Great Joo Joo up the mountain. We only are aware of about 6% of our universe. Why and how could any one know that. And again, if their were gods, they would communicate in Mathematics, not local dialects. And I think they would communicate more than every 2,000 years. Just a guess.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 1, 2012)

drive said:


> And don't say the big foreplay


Stole my line ... the Big Come-on 
cn


----------



## drive (Jun 2, 2012)

who created the creater is equal to what was before the big bang. you can not prove them. All the universe condensed down to a single point, hard to wrap your mind around


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 2, 2012)

drive said:


> who created the [creator] is equal to what was before the big bang. you can not prove them. All the universe condensed down to a single point, hard to wrap your mind around


A classic instance of begging the question. Must there have been a creative intent? cn


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 2, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> A classic instance of begging the question. Must there have been a creative intent? cn


Humans' ego will seldom allow thoughts of purposelessness. Are we an accidental colony of pests? Ohhhh, nooooo. We are important. Cuz not being important sucks. So we're important.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 2, 2012)

drive said:


> who created the creater is equal to what was before the big bang. you can not prove them. All the universe condensed down to a single point, hard to wrap your mind around


Who created the creator is a relevant question because, creation is being used as an explanation for complexity. When we ask how the creator came to be, we expose the false terminator. God does not answer the complexity question, he confounds it.

What came before the big bang is also a relevant question, but does nothing to expose any flaws in the theory. The big bang theory is simply an explanation of the evidence we see when we look.


----------



## drive (Jun 3, 2012)

If the lord is timeless then there would be no time before its existance


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 3, 2012)

drive said:


> If the lord is timeless then there would be no time before its existance


I don't understand how something could be 'timeless'. That seems like a word someone made up to bypass these types of logistical issues. By the very nature of existing, you're subject to the effects of what we would define as 'time'. Time is simply a measurement from past instances to present ones to future events. It's a concept. It's a rule that even a God would not be able to bypass, and if it could by simply using magic, what value would that have?


----------



## drive (Jun 3, 2012)

all points of time exist at once. Kind of like you can climb a mountain and explore the different creavices and look at lichen because you live in a third dimentional world. Being able to travel in such a way would be impossible seeming to a second dimentional being


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 3, 2012)

drive said:


> all points of time exist at once. Kind of like you can climb a mountain and explore the different creavices and look at lichen because you live in a third dimentional world. Being able to travel in such a way would be impossible seeming to a second dimentional being


That again seems like just a cop out. You can simply say 'this god has this ability and is above our realm of understanding' - and that's that because any statement made must be accepted on faith. I asked you what the value of that is? Why does it matter to us as humans who can't measure it?


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 3, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> That again seems like just a cop out. You can simply say 'this god has this ability and is above our realm of understanding' - and that's that because any statement made must be accepted on faith. I asked you what the value of that is? Why does it matter to us as humans who can't measure it?


The universe only came into existence 10 seconds ago. All of your memories of time before that are false and put there by god for your own benefit. And all those fossils and structures and planets and things suggesting an older universe, that's god again. You can try to prove this wrong all you want, but in the end you will see that the only choice left is to believe.


----------



## ineverveg (Jun 3, 2012)

if god is real, why are there so many of them, ya think they all hang out.....


----------



## ineverveg (Jun 3, 2012)

also why does each religion dispute all other religions...


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 4, 2012)

Chief Walkin Eagle said:


> Thats messed up man, I'd be PISSED if teachers were preachin religion at preschool to my kids... If I ever have kids lol


Most people of faith assume every one practices their religion. A simple talk with the teacher should do the trick. If it happens again, contact the district and the ACLU or the FFRF. Unless the school is privately funded, they can NOT use district money to teach religion, indirectly or directly. I had to call my child's elementary school because they were teaching religious songs in public school. I called, it stopped.


----------



## eye exaggerate (Jun 4, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> The big bang theory is simply an explanation of the evidence we see when we look.


...I've been enjoying these posts of yours lately, Heis.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 4, 2012)

drive said:


> If the lord is timeless then there would be no time before its existance


If the Lord was timeless, he would communicate the ultimate workings of the universe, because scientific progress would not exist to him. The Bible would be written in Mathematics, and would contain the Grand Unified Theory to the Universe.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 4, 2012)

ineverveg said:


> if god is real, why are there so many of them, ya think they all hang out.....


I've seen quite a few at the annual Atheists meeting.


----------



## NetGuruINC (Jun 4, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> I grew up believing in god. It was something that I took for granted, and never questioned. At some point during my teenage years I began questioning this position. I honestly don't recall a single event, or person that changed my mind, but it started to set my bullshit-meter off quite often.
> 
> Fast forward to today .... at the age of 37 I still maintain that there is no such thing as a god. The weird thing is, I've never really examined WHY I feel this way. Reading through this section of RIU has kind of challenged me to engage myself, and really pin down my thinking on this.
> 
> ...


I URGE you to please go to youtube and type in "nde". There is PROOF what happens to us when we die. Go to youtube and type in "nde" which stands for Near Death Experiences and watch and listen to the hundreds of stories from people who have had heart attacks, cancer, car accidents, and listen to their stories of what happened to them. You will see proof that God and Jesus are real, Angels are real, and Hell is real. Everyone needs to check it out seriously....


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 4, 2012)

NetGuruINC said:


> I URGE you to please go to youtube and type in "nde". There is PROOF what happens to us when we die. Go to youtube and type in "nde" which stands for Near Death Experiences and watch and listen to the hundreds of stories from people who have had heart attacks, cancer, car accidents, and listen to their stories of what happened to them. You will see proof that God and Jesus are real, Angels are real, and Hell is real. Everyone needs to check it out seriously....


The activity in the brain has been documented during shock and death. Seeing "White" and feeling presences can be explained using science. Did you just try to prove the Judaic christian deity using NDE's? Why wouldn't this prove another God or Gods existed?


----------



## drive (Jun 6, 2012)

afrawfraw said:


> If the Lord was timeless, he would communicate the ultimate workings of the universe, because scientific progress would not exist to him. The Bible would be written in Mathematics, and would contain the Grand Unified Theory to the Universe.


man wrote the bible. Perhaps the lord is complete and utter logic and is so true that man can not hope to understand


----------



## ZedsDedBaby (Jun 6, 2012)

NetGuruINC said:


> I URGE you to please go to youtube and type in "nde". There is PROOF what happens to us when we die. Go to youtube and type in "nde" which stands for Near Death Experiences and watch and listen to the hundreds of stories from people who have had heart attacks, cancer, car accidents, and listen to their stories of what happened to them. You will see proof that God and Jesus are real, Angels are real, and Hell is real. Everyone needs to check it out seriously....


so the proof of a supernatural creator of all in existence, the answer to the most controversial question does god exist, is in a youtube video?? riiight....


----------



## ZedsDedBaby (Jun 6, 2012)

ineverveg said:


> if god is real, why are there so many of them, ya think they all hang out.....


Thats exactly it, so many religions, they cant _ALL_ be right.. but.. they can all be wrong..


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 6, 2012)

RobotJr said:


> Something put the Moon and Sun up in the sky  Death brings the best out in all of us ` If are to know it all now, how fun would knowing that your pot plants about to die  Somethings are meant for God and the Devil ~ Millions of years old, please, Scientists can not tell how old my leaf of my Maple tree is, let alone a fossil ~


WTF are you babbling about? Science cannot determine the age of a leaf on your tree? I can't even see your tree but I would wager that any leaf you pick is no older than 2-3 months with a pretty high degree of certainty. If I knew exactly where you live, I could pinpoint it even closer. 

No one put the sun and moon in the sky, the sun was here before the earth was. Being ignorant about science is one thing, acting as if you know more than science is complete idiocy.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 6, 2012)

Magnets?! How the fuck do they work?!


----------



## Oscar Zeta Acosta (Jun 6, 2012)

One thing I will add, is that although I'm not a believer of the bearded guy in a cloud image, I do believe in a lot of the stories in the bible. They might have been blown out of proportion, but a fair few of them seem to have some portion of truth to them. Plus a certain amount of romance to it...


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 6, 2012)

So does _Harry Potter_...


----------



## drive (Jun 7, 2012)

Oscar Zeta Acosta said:


> One thing I will add, is that although I'm not a believer of the bearded guy in a cloud image, I do believe in a lot of the stories in the bible. They might have been blown out of proportion, but a fair few of them seem to have some portion of truth to them. Plus a certain amount of romance to it...


when I read your posts I hear benico del toro LOL


----------



## Johmey (Jun 7, 2012)

Interesting... what say you about inter-dimensional beings?


----------



## drive (Jun 7, 2012)

don't think I have met any maybe you could introduce , you know ste me up with one of your friends


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 7, 2012)

Johmey said:


> Interesting... what say you about inter-dimensional beings?


Something we conjure from our imaginations, and see within our dream reality because of our imaginations.


----------



## tmt1958 (Jun 7, 2012)

I can understand why some people don't believe in God. It's the way they taught or the environment they were exposed to. Some things may have left a bad taste or seem confusing. I will try to answer some of the questions I see because I had a time in my life where I doubted God existed. I was in my late teens back then. As I grew older and studied and researched along the way, I found that God is indeed real. I have had too many prayers answered and I have seen miracles happen. That's how I know He is real. We are genetically engineered to connect spiritually with God but He will only come into our life if we ask Him. The bible stands for : basic instruction before leaving earth. I didn't understand most of the bible until I started studying it and listening to others talk about it. It is a book full of lessons, instructions, songs, poetry and history. It is meant to teach us the path to living our best life. A religion is not the same as the the RELATIONSHIP between us and God. A wonderful book to read is "In Defense of Faith" by David Brog. It is not a religious book at all. The book talks about what the Judeo-Christian culture has brought to the world. Very interesting. Even the American atheist has beliefs that came from this culture. Did you know that there was an 11th Commandment? Yep. Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you". The more we aspire to God's way, the better our lives get. I would say it is supernatural how it works. When Haiti had the big earthquake, the very first decent camp with food and a way to clean up and a place to sleep was a church. They went right to work getting things in order. If we live for the glory of God, He will give us more than we dreamed of. I am not talking about religious acts, but about having a heart with love in it to where we value other human life. You know how germs cannot be seen but we know they are there? Well, God is way bigger than what we can see but He is there. God Bless you all.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 7, 2012)

The idea of prayer doesn't make sense. God has a plan for you and everyone else, yet _praying_ for something will change his mind? If there is a plan, what will prayer accomplish?


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 7, 2012)

tmt1958 said:


> I can understand why some people don't believe in God. It's the way they taught or the environment they were exposed to. Some things may have left a bad taste or seem confusing. I will try to answer some of the questions I see because I had a time in my life where I doubted God existed. I was in my late teens back then. As I grew older and studied and researched along the way, I found that God is indeed real. I have had too many prayers answered and I have seen miracles happen. That's how I know He is real. We are genetically engineered to connect spiritually with God but He will only come into our life if we ask Him. The bible stands for : basic instruction before leaving earth. I didn't understand most of the bible until I started studying it and listening to others talk about it. It is a book full of lessons, instructions, songs, poetry and history. It is meant to teach us the path to living our best life. A religion is not the same as the the RELATIONSHIP between us and God. A wonderful book to read is "In Defense of Faith" by David Brog. It is not a religious book at all. The book talks about what the Judeo-Christian culture has brought to the world. Very interesting. Even the American atheist has beliefs that came from this culture. Did you know that there was an 11th Commandment? Yep. Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you". The more we aspire to God's way, the better our lives get. I would say it is supernatural how it works. When Haiti had the big earthquake, the very first decent camp with food and a way to clean up and a place to sleep was a church. They went right to work getting things in order. If we live for the glory of God, He will give us more than we dreamed of. I am not talking about religious acts, but about having a heart with love in it to where we value other human life. You know how germs cannot be seen but we know they are there? Well, God is way bigger than what we can see but He is there. God Bless you all.





You come to a marijuana website and your second post is here repeating vapid platitudes about religion? 

You sound like an atheist 12-stepper that has to rationalize to yourself why you believe in a higher power. So god answers prayers but sometimes the answer is 'no,' right? I would bet a load of money that the miracles you have seen have nothing to do with actually violating physical laws, the things most people would agree is miraculous. Does the bible really give you a path to living a good life or do you have to do what most people do and discard 90% of it to do so? Actually reading the bible is the fastest way to become a non-believer. 

Most people have no problem with a person that says they believe in a god but when you claim that "god is indeed real" prepare to be criticized and defend your claims.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 7, 2012)

tmt1958 said:


> I can understand why some people don't believe in God. It's the way they taught or the environment they were exposed to. Some things may have left a bad taste or seem confusing. I will try to answer some of the questions I see because I had a time in my life where I doubted God existed. I was in my late teens back then. As I grew older and studied and researched along the way, I found that God is indeed real. I have had too many prayers answered and I have seen miracles happen. That's how I know He is real. We are genetically engineered to connect spiritually with God but He will only come into our life if we ask Him. The bible stands for : basic instruction before leaving earth. I didn't understand most of the bible until I started studying it and listening to others talk about it. It is a book full of lessons, instructions, songs, poetry and history. It is meant to teach us the path to living our best life. A religion is not the same as the the RELATIONSHIP between us and God. A wonderful book to read is "In Defense of Faith" by David Brog. It is not a religious book at all. The book talks about what the Judeo-Christian culture has brought to the world. Very interesting. Even the American atheist has beliefs that came from this culture. Did you know that there was an 11th Commandment? Yep. Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you". The more we aspire to God's way, the better our lives get. I would say it is supernatural how it works. When Haiti had the big earthquake, the very first decent camp with food and a way to clean up and a place to sleep was a church. They went right to work getting things in order. If we live for the glory of God, He will give us more than we dreamed of. I am not talking about religious acts, but about having a heart with love in it to where we value other human life. You know how germs cannot be seen but we know they are there? Well, God is way bigger than what we can see but He is there. God Bless you all.


ALL children are born Atheist=FACT!

Atheists are natural. You were born that way. You were free at birth, fuck everyone who won't let you see that. You don't need a master to accomplish anything. You are capable of anything on your own. Damn the bastards that told you otherwise.

75% of Americans claim Christianity. So does 75% of our prison population. Atheists comprise approximately 10% of the American population, yet only .2% of prisoners are atheists. We are also less likely to get divorced.

If you must believe in God, Please respect Atheists. After all, your choosing to warship one.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 8, 2012)

afrawfraw said:


> "FAITH". The ONLY way religion works is faith. Because without faith, you would call your minister a blathering idiot. "Faith" forces you to change the parameters of your logic. Why does deductive reasoning work for every other scenario in life EXCEPT religion? Hmmmm. Also, the universe is not, "Nothing." Just because you were sold a religion, doesn't mean you should ignore science. There are two earth type planets we have discovered SO FAR. We are also on the verge of discovering how matter can shed mass. This would answer the "Something from nothing".
> 
> Since we're on the Bible, some good 'ol Christian reading for ya!
> 
> ...


Just thought this needs to be here too.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 8, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> You come to a marijuana website and your second post is here repeating vapid platitudes about religion?
> 
> You sound like an atheist 12-stepper that has to rationalize to yourself why you believe in a higher power. So god answers prayers but sometimes the answer is 'no,' right? I would bet a load of money that the miracles you have seen have nothing to do with actually violating physical laws, the things most people would agree is miraculous. Does the bible really give you a path to living a good life or do you have to do what most people do and discard 90% of it to do so? Actually reading the bible is the fastest way to become a non-believer.
> 
> Most people have no problem with a person that says they believe in a god but when you claim that "god is indeed real" prepare to be criticized and defend your claims.


God's will, not mine. Or some bull shit like that.


----------



## goodvibes420 (Jun 8, 2012)

The question who created the creator is answered as follows

For you to believe in a creator you must believe he has been around forever. Eternity is a hard thing to imagine but to understand religion you must realize that for a god to exist it must be this way. If you believe something cant come from nothing and a god couldnt always be around then how to you explain the universe. Has the universe just always been around or what came before that? to me it makes more sense believing an all powerful creator has existed for ever than to believe a universe has. 

To the dinosaur question, it is not even a known fact when dinosaurs existed. Some scientists believe they existed around the same time as humans and if you believe that then they were created for our enjoyment along with every other aniaml on the planet. he created this world for us and everything on it was created for us to expierience and view. The good as well as the bad.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 8, 2012)

goodvibes420 said:


> The question who created the creator is answered as follows
> 
> For you to believe in The Flying Pink Unicorn you must believe The Flying Pink Unicorn has been around forever. Eternity is a hard thing to imagine but to understand religion you must realize that for The Flying Pink Unicorn to exist it must be this way. If you believe something cant come from nothing and The Flying Pink Unicorn couldnt always be around then how to you explain the universe. Has the universe just always been around or what came before that? To me it makes more sense believing The Flying Pink Unicorn has existed for ever than to believe a universe has.
> 
> To the dinosaur question, it is not even a known fact when dinosaurs existed. Some scientists believe they existed around the same time as humans and if you believe that then they were created for our enjoyment along with every other aniaml on the planet. The Flying Pink Unicorn created this world for us and everything on it was created for us to expierience and view. The good as well as the bad.


Doesn't work, huh? Go read books on Paleontology please.


----------



## cannabineer (Jun 8, 2012)

goodvibes420 said:


> The question who created the creator is answered as follows
> 
> For you to believe in a creator you must believe he has been around forever. Eternity is a hard thing to imagine but to understand religion you must realize that for a god to exist it must be this way. If you believe something cant come from nothing and a god couldnt always be around then how to you explain the universe. Has the universe just always been around or what came before that? to me it makes more sense believing an all powerful creator has existed for ever than to believe a universe has.
> 
> To the dinosaur question, it is not even a known fact when dinosaurs existed. *Some scientists believe they existed around the same time as humans* and if you believe that then they were created for our enjoyment along with every other aniaml on the planet. he created this world for us and everything on it was created for us to expierience and view. The good as well as the bad.


Name even one. cn


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 8, 2012)

goodvibes420 said:


> The question who created the creator is answered as follows
> 
> For you to believe in a creator you must believe he has been around forever. Eternity is a hard thing to imagine but to understand religion you must realize that for a god to exist it must be this way. If you believe something cant come from nothing and a god couldnt always be around then how to you explain the universe. Has the universe just always been around or what came before that? to me it makes more sense believing an all powerful creator has existed for ever than to believe a universe has.
> 
> To the dinosaur question, it is not even a known fact when dinosaurs existed. Some scientists believe they existed around the same time as humans and if you believe that then they were created for our enjoyment along with every other aniaml on the planet. he created this world for us and everything on it was created for us to expierience and view. The good as well as the bad.


Wait. You claim that it is easier to believe that an intelligent being, that thinks and has emotions and is so powerful as to be able to create anything it wishes by mere thought, can exist eternally but it is difficult to believe that a small condensed system of pure energy, at the lowest possible state of entropy, can exist eternally? How exactly do you come to such a conclusion? It appears you are claiming it is easier to believe the complex existed before the simplistic.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 8, 2012)

goodvibes420 said:


> To the dinosaur question, it is not even a known fact when dinosaurs existed. Some scientists believe they existed around the same time as humans and if you believe that then they were created for our enjoyment along with every other aniaml on the planet. he created this world for us and everything on it was created for us to expierience and view. The good as well as the bad.




It is a well established fact when dinosaurs existed, the margin of error is within 1% - 2%. 

Not a single credible scientist on the face of this planet believes humans and dinosaurs existed during the same time. 

99.9% of the universe is hostile to human life as we know it. If I gave you a sandwich that was 99.9% shit and .01% ham, would you still call that a "ham sandwich" that was created specifically for you to enjoy?


----------



## Doer (Jun 8, 2012)

99.9 percent of our planet is in-hospitable.


----------



## Doer (Jun 8, 2012)

afrawfraw said:


> ALL children are born Atheist=FACT!
> 
> Atheists are natural. You were born that way. You were free at birth, fuck everyone who won't let you see that.


Well no. Of course, that is not true. We are not born with an innate rejection of something we don't yet know about.


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 8, 2012)

Doer said:


> Well no. Of course, that is not true. We are not born with an innate rejection of something we don't yet know about.


Atheist = a -theist = not a theist. We are not born theists, we are all atheists until we learn about gods. This is implicit atheism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_and_explicit_atheism


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 8, 2012)

Doer said:


> Well no. Of course, that is not true. We are not born with an innate rejection of something we don't yet know about.


Turn up the sound, sit back, and pause if it goes to quickly...

[youtube]-j8ZMMuu7MU[/youtube]


----------



## Doer (Jun 8, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Atheist = a -theist = not a theist. We are not born theists, we are all atheists until we learn about gods. This is implicit atheism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_and_explicit_atheism


Oh, yes, I get that, but I guess we discuss a fine point. I'm saying agnostic. We are born agnostic. We do not yet know of any of these so called truth values, so we are yet unable to reject them as an a-theist might certainly reject them on good grounds. But, not at birth.

*Agnosticism* is the view that the truth values of certain claims&#8212;especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims&#8212;are unknown or unknowable.[


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 8, 2012)

It's not the 'rejection' of the idea of a god, rejection implies existence. Atheists do not believe a god exists. How could someone reject something they believe doesn't exist? 

Do I _reject_ Santa Clause? Do I _reject_ the Easter bunny? Of course not, I simply don't believe in them because there is no evidence to support their existence. 

Gnosticism deals with *knowledge*, atheism deals with *belief*.

I'm an agnostic atheist, in that I don't *know *for sure if a god exists, but I *believe *it doesn't.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 8, 2012)

Doer said:


> Oh, yes, I get that, but I guess we discuss a fine point. I'm saying agnostic. We are born agnostic. We do not yet know of any of these so called truth values, so we are yet unable to reject them as an a-theist might certainly reject them on good grounds. But, not at birth.
> 
> *Agnosticism* is the view that the truth values of certain claims&#8212;especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims&#8212;are unknown or unknowable.[


Is the view that the truth values of CERTAIN CLAIMS, CLAIMS, claims, claims, Echo, echo....ESPECIALLY CLAIMS ABOUT EXISTENCE OR NON-EXISTENCE Existence, existence, echo,echo....

Without knowledge of claims, where is your Agnostic? Sheesh.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 8, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> It's not the 'rejection' of the idea of a god, rejection implies existence. Atheists do not believe a god exists. How could someone reject something they believe doesn't exist?
> 
> Do I _reject_ Santa Clause? Do I _reject_ the Easter bunny? Of course not, I simply don't believe in them because there is no evidence to support their existence.
> 
> ...


Missed ya bud.


----------



## Oscar Zeta Acosta (Jun 8, 2012)

Shame this forum doesn't have a user by the name of god. It would offer some good comical skits for these threads.


----------



## TogTokes (Jun 8, 2012)

Is there a Heaven and or Hell? Answer is NO! Def not.. When you die you get put back into earth and turn into nutes for us.. Try and be less brainwashed! haha!


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 8, 2012)

If we are born without knowing anything about religion, we would not believe in anything yet. If we do not believe in anything, that would also mean we would not believe in god/gods. 

If you do not believe in god/gods, you are an atheist.


----------



## Doer (Jun 8, 2012)

All right then. If we don't know anything at birth, no Claims to regard as unknowable, no -Theism to reject on merit, we can neither be one or the other, can we? Nope, we are born as Self, only. All the rest is laid on us. And we will die as Self only.

To me it's what one does with Self. 

Or does one reject even that along with the -tics and -isms. Throw out the baby with the bathwater. Who can still Mr. Mind and see the rest of Self? How do we even learn the techniques for that? The strict Objectivist may say there is nothing beyond the mind cloud. I have sure knowledge there is.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 8, 2012)

Atheism is the default when you are born, as it simply means without a belief in a god. 

Just like if you are born to two parents who are white, you will be white because white is the default color for your skin to be. You're not _rejecting _being black, are you?


----------



## Zaehet Strife (Jun 8, 2012)

This is elementary philosophical thinking, i don't understand why others fail to understand the concept of not having any beliefs when you are born. The result of this is Atheism- no belief in the existence of god or gods.

Atheism does not mean we must reject anything, especially as we are born we do not have the mental capacity to reject any thought or idea, as our thoughts grow with age and experience.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 8, 2012)

*COUGH* KAFAIL *COUGH* DOER KAFAILED *COUGH*

Just kiddin'. Your logistic parameters have just been altered in such a way that your reasoning can never reach this conclusion: Atheist=Blank hard drive

It doesn't take an Apple IIe to ....


----------



## kpmarine (Jun 8, 2012)

goodvibes420 said:


> To the dinosaur question, it is not even a known fact when dinosaurs existed. Some scientists believe they existed around the same time as humans and if you believe that then they were created for our enjoyment along with every other aniaml on the planet. he created this world for us and everything on it was created for us to expierience and view. The good as well as the bad.


There is a 50 million+ gap between dinosaurs and humans. Who are these scientists?


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 8, 2012)

If belief in god then
Theist (with belief in god)
or else
Atheist (without belief in god)

The circumstances do not make _any _difference, if not theism, then atheism.


This is why we always stress that knowing someone is atheist tells you only one specific thing, they are without belief in a deity. It does not tell you why, it does not indicate other beliefs, it simply acknowledges the lack of belief, ANYTIME that belief isn't there.

It's confusing and absurd to think that a baby is an atheist when he doesn't even have cognitive function yet, which reveals the confusing and absurd nature of the word. This baby also does not believe in evolution, germ theory, or Santa, yet we do not have a word that accuses them of lacking the belief. Can you think of any other word that indicates the lack of a belief? This only occurs when the discipline seeks to place the burden of proof on the non-believer. It is the result of grasping at straws due to an asinine position. When you can not provide justification, support or defense of your belief, one recourse is to attack anything that is not your belief. This is hard to do with atheism unless you confine it's definition to those who provide a counter-claim.


----------



## kpmarine (Jun 8, 2012)

tmt1958 said:


> I can understand why some people don't believe in God. It's the way they taught or the environment they were exposed to. Some things may have left a bad taste or seem confusing. I will try to answer some of the questions I see because I had a time in my life where I doubted God existed. I was in my late teens back then. As I grew older and studied and researched along the way, I found that God is indeed real. I have had too many prayers answered and I have seen miracles happen. That's how I know He is real. We are genetically engineered to connect spiritually with God but He will only come into our life if we ask Him. The bible stands for : basic instruction before leaving earth. I didn't understand most of the bible until I started studying it and listening to others talk about it. It is a book full of lessons, instructions, songs, poetry and history. It is meant to teach us the path to living our best life. A religion is not the same as the the RELATIONSHIP between us and God. A wonderful book to read is "In Defense of Faith" by David Brog. It is not a religious book at all. The book talks about what the Judeo-Christian culture has brought to the world. Very interesting. Even the American atheist has beliefs that came from this culture. Did you know that there was an 11th Commandment? Yep. Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you". The more we aspire to God's way, the better our lives get. I would say it is supernatural how it works. When Haiti had the big earthquake, the very first decent camp with food and a way to clean up and a place to sleep was a church. They went right to work getting things in order. If we live for the glory of God, He will give us more than we dreamed of. I am not talking about religious acts, but about having a heart with love in it to where we value other human life. You know how germs cannot be seen but we know they are there? Well, God is way bigger than what we can see but He is there. God Bless you all.


Would you please explain how this in any way proves god exists?


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 8, 2012)

tmt1958 said:


> I can understand why some people don't believe in God. It's the way they taught or the environment they were exposed to. Some things may have left a bad taste or seem confusing. I will try to answer some of the questions I see because I had a time in my life where I doubted God existed. I was in my late teens back then. As I grew older and studied and researched along the way, I found that God is indeed real. I have had too many prayers answered and I have seen miracles happen. That's how I know He is real. We are genetically engineered to connect spiritually with God but He will only come into our life if we ask Him. The bible stands for : basic instruction before leaving earth. I didn't understand most of the bible until I started studying it and listening to others talk about it. It is a book full of lessons, instructions, songs, poetry and history. It is meant to teach us the path to living our best life. A religion is not the same as the the RELATIONSHIP between us and God. A wonderful book to read is "In Defense of Faith" by David Brog. It is not a religious book at all. The book talks about what the Judeo-Christian culture has brought to the world. Very interesting.* Even the American atheist has beliefs that came from this culture.* Did you know that there was an 11th Commandment? Yep. Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you". The more we aspire to God's way, the better our lives get. I would say it is supernatural how it works. When Haiti had the big earthquake, the very first decent camp with food and a way to clean up and a place to sleep was a church. They went right to work getting things in order. If we live for the glory of God, He will give us more than we dreamed of. I am not talking about religious acts, but about having a heart with love in it to where we value other human life. You know how germs cannot be seen but we know they are there? Well, God is way bigger than what we can see but He is there. God Bless you all.


With you very first post, your words effectively remove you from intelligent conversation.


----------



## drive (Jun 8, 2012)

A baby knows only its parents and family. It developes a relationship with those that nurture its developement. our parents are our early models for God


----------



## mindphuk (Jun 8, 2012)

Doer said:


> Oh, yes, I get that, but I guess we discuss a fine point. I'm saying agnostic. We are born agnostic. We do not yet know of any of these so called truth values, so we are yet unable to reject them as an a-theist might certainly reject them on good grounds. But, not at birth.
> 
> *Agnosticism* is the view that the truth values of certain claims&#8212;especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims&#8212;are unknown or unknowable.[


People are not agnostic. Agnostic is not a conditional state. Agnostic is a position on a particular subject. An infant can no more be an agnostic on the idea of god than a fish. However, fish are atheists as far as we know. How can an infant decide that the truth-value of anything? 

Atheism is a condition of not being a theist. Atheism doesn't even exist without theism. So yes, the natural state of all things, including children, is atheistic.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 8, 2012)

goodvibes420 said:


> The question who created the creator is answered as follows
> 
> For you to believe in a creator you must believe he has been around forever. Eternity is a hard thing to imagine but to understand religion you must realize that for a god to exist it must be this way. If you believe something cant come from nothing and a god couldnt always be around then how to you explain the universe. Has the universe just always been around or what came before that? to me it makes more sense believing an all powerful creator has existed for ever than to believe a universe has.
> 
> To the dinosaur question, it is not even a known fact when dinosaurs existed. Some scientists believe they existed around the same time as humans and if you believe that then they were created for our enjoyment along with every other aniaml on the planet. he created this world for us and everything on it was created for us to expierience and view. The good as well as the bad.


That is a very dangerous perspective, imo.

I try to tolerate religion, but viewpoints such as yours cause me concern and make it difficult for me to respect your beliefs. To think that we can just burn the planet, and consume all of it's bounty because some book about an imaginary friend for adults told you so is breathtakingly stupid, and irresponsible.


----------



## Doer (Jun 8, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> People are not agnostic. Agnostic is not a conditional state. Agnostic is a position on a particular subject. An infant can no more be an agnostic on the idea of god than a fish. However, fish are atheists as far as we know. How can an infant decide that the truth-value of anything?
> 
> Atheism is a condition of not being a theist. Atheism doesn't even exist without theism. So yes, the natural state of all things, including children, is atheistic.


OK, that's right. Both, I see now, need cognition. To hold either view takes a choice. So, born without cognition and the without the nattering mind cloud, we are Self. When we gain the cloud we are distracted from Self, but can operatemuch better in the physical space.

To me religion is the ill formed and poorly executed plan to seek more knowledge of Self. But, it has served in a somewhat mediocre way and has been with us throughout.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 8, 2012)

Doer said:


> To me religion is the ill formed and poorly executed plan to seek more knowledge of Self. But, it has served in a somewhat mediocre way and has been with us throughout.


We had to crawl with religion, now let us walk with science. The answers provided can only be as sound as the process.


----------



## bombasticson (Jun 8, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> I grew up believing in god. It was something that I took for granted, and never questioned. At some point during my teenage years I began questioning this position. I honestly don't recall a single event, or person that changed my mind, but it started to set my bullshit-meter off quite often.
> 
> Fast forward to today .... at the age of 37 I still maintain that there is no such thing as a god. The weird thing is, I've never really examined WHY I feel this way. Reading through this section of RIU has kind of challenged me to engage myself, and really pin down my thinking on this.
> 
> ...


There is evil so there would have to be good.. Have fun in hell


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 8, 2012)

bombasticson said:


> There is evil so there would have to be good.. Have fun in hell


Does this sort of thinking satisfy you, or are you trying to demonstrate that you are uninformed? IOW, how about you confirm hell is real before you threaten people with it.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 8, 2012)

bombasticson said:


> There is evil so there would have to be good.. Have fun in hell


Where is that rule written down?


----------



## Doer (Jun 8, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> We had to crawl with religion, now let us walk with science. The answers provided can only be as sound as the process.


How true, and yet some times, even with strong legs of science, we all must still be able to crawl, if desirable or individually necessary. I know you Are Not among those that seem to advocate we cut the knees of everyone, to serve the Rightness of a few.

No crawling! Stand for Science in Trust. It is easy to imagine, because as a civilization, we fight against that.

It's the power of the mob that is the reason for reason. Reason must preserve our birhright and not make it a bad thing, a thing to be laughed at by scornful children in Brown Shirts. Sometime the ability to crawl can save us from ruin. And save us from enslavement.

Most do not foresee this. But, like all the other secular -isms we've fought and died over, recently, and now Islamic sectarian-ism, I know where I stand against it. I know that it is an actual plan in action. A cult is a subversive cadre against the prevailing social order.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 8, 2012)

bombasticson said:


> There is evil so there would have to be good.. Have fun in hell


I'll take my chances. In the mean time, I'll lead a good life, and treat others with kindness ..... and if that doesn't punch my ticket, then I'm not sure I want to belong to your club.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 8, 2012)

Sure, some of the methods are comparably blunt to get the message across these days, but what would have changed if the tactics hadn't changed? At the beginning of the scientific revolution, you would literally be executed for saying anything against the church. For hundreds of years, this was the standard. Fast forward to today, I think we have the perfect recipe for considerable change. We have the freedom to say whatever we want, we have the ability to test essentially any reasonable claim, and we have the ability to send information globally within minutes. 

Now, it sounds like what you're suggesting [Doer] is that today's nonbelievers should just be content with their nonbelief and that should be the end of it, you feel like people like Heis and mp are forcing their beliefs on the religious population by expressing their opinions. Is that the case, do you feel like that?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 8, 2012)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'll take my chances. In the mean time, I'll lead a good life, and treat others with kindness ..... and if that doesn't punch my ticket, then I'm not sure I want to belong to your club.


Spoken like a reasonable person. I would have a drink with you.


----------



## Oscar Zeta Acosta (Jun 8, 2012)

Because no divine being with a conscious would let me have to listen to crazy lady and her partner go five rounds.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 8, 2012)

Zaehet Strife said:


> All thinking men are atheists. Earnest Hemingway
> 
> Everyone is born atheist. Religion is learned. As a learned behavior, peoples' religion
> can be accurately predicted by the religion of their parents and the place where they
> ...


From another thread.


----------



## dashcues (Jun 9, 2012)

Hi Padawanbater2
Wow! Hemingway said all that?Could never stay awake to War and Peace,but loved his autobiography.A Moveable Feast.Maybe that's where that quote came from.Been a while.Brain cells have been lost.lol

Anyhow,as for children being born atheist(without deities) would claim an absolute truth.Neither side should state that claim.It implies a knowledge that Hemingway(as bright as he was)would not of had access to, unless divinely inspired.lol.But I do get the jist of what he was implying.
Children are born without the knowledge of one or the other.Neither + nor -.Only =.Clean slates.But they are molded by tradition or culture,as Hemingway stated.Each child must endure the trials of life to gain the knowledge we all seek.None are born into that knowledge.
We don't know that if left alone to his/her own devices that a child could or could not fathom (a)God.
After all,in mankinds infancy,man has fathomed many gods.

As for Christianity.
I, as a Christian,hold the rights to define my own belief.Not someone who has formulated their own.
My belief?I believe in the wisdom of Jesus(man or myth).His moral teachings have spread the world over.Same could be said of Buddha,Mohammed,and countless others.I find wisdom in his words.Thus I take his name as the title to my belief.You could just as well call me a Buddhist.
So I hold no grudge against any other religion or belief.To each their own.

Hope that made sense


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 10, 2012)

dashcues said:


> Hi Padawanbater2
> Wow! Hemingway said all that?Could never stay awake to War and Peace,but loved his autobiography.A Moveable Feast.Maybe that's where that quote came from.Been a while.Brain cells have been lost.lol
> 
> Anyhow,as for children being born atheist(without deities) would claim an absolute truth.Neither side should state that claim.It implies a knowledge that Hemingway(as bright as he was)would not of had access to, unless divinely inspired.lol.But I do get the jist of what he was implying.
> ...


You , as a Christian, holding the rights to define your own beliefs makes no sense to me.


----------



## dashcues (Jun 10, 2012)

Maybe I should have typed -I,who am a christian,hold the rights to my belief?
Don't sound right,but i don't know.

What was meant was me stating 2 claims.

1.I am a Christian

2.I have the right to define my belief as i see fit

Not Hemingway,not the Christian community,and certainly not the internet

I am not a part of the orthodox christian community,but that does not mean I can't define my belief as Christianity.

I try to follow the teachings and morals of Jesus,Buddha,etc,etc.I choose the title to my own belief.

I believe in the wisdom of these great teachers among so many more.You could put a "ity" or "ism" to any of these teachers you like and would not be wrong.
I understand my definition may be unorthodox by everyone's standards,But I've never been much for conformity.

However,When someone quotes Hemingway's generalized view of Christianity,I must state that not everyone falls into that view.Myself included.

Sorry for any confusion.I'm from the deep south with a deep south accent.When I try to type smarter than I talk,confusion often follows.lol


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 10, 2012)

dashcues said:


> Maybe I should have typed -I,who am a christian,hold the rights to my belief?
> Don't sound right,but i don't know.
> 
> What was meant was me stating 2 claims.
> ...


Oh, OK. I thought you were postulating that despite being bound to the teachings of Jesus, you were free to refute them at any time. This would have been a contradiction. You choose your own label. This is good. One can follow the teachings of Jesus, and consider themselves a non-christian simply by following other teachings concurrently, as you have. Cool.


----------



## Heisenberg (Jun 10, 2012)

dashcues said:


> Maybe I should have typed -I,who am a christian,hold the rights to my belief?
> Don't sound right,but i don't know.
> 
> What was meant was me stating 2 claims.
> ...


I certainly include defining a belief to be under the umbrella of expressing a belief, which is to say I think it is your right. It's too bad that many Christians do not share this view. Perhaps it would be more accurate for you to call yourself 'Christ-like' rather than Christian.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 10, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> I certainly include defining a belief to be under the umbrella of expressing a belief, which is to say I think it is your right. It's too bad that many Christians do not share this view. Perhaps it would be more accurate for you to call yourself 'Christ-like' rather than Christian.


How about Christ Conscious! It has two K sounds, and proposes only that you have studied the works of Jesus. Did I mention it has two K sounds?


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Jun 10, 2012)

Because I care about people, animals and the environment.

Because I'm unable to suspend reality in favor of blind faith.

Because I respect civil rights.

Because I believe in freedom.

...


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 10, 2012)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Because I care about people, animals and the environment.
> 
> Because I'm unable to suspend reality in favor of blind faith.
> 
> ...


Well said. + Rep.


----------



## afrawfraw (Jun 10, 2012)

*

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Padawanbater2 again.





*



Well, I tried.


----------

