# 496w LED/CFL mix grow



## Syr (Aug 18, 2009)

Here's the short version fisrt, then if you want to know why I'm using LEDs and CFLs, you can read below.

*Short version* - 
Set-up 
4x90w LED UFOs (360 watts total) - 2x dual spectrum 8:1 660 red and 470 blue, the other 2 are tri-spectrum 7:1:1 640 red 470 blue and cool white 6000k. Each has 90x1w LED lights.

2x68w CFL (136w total) - 2700w kelvin and 4200 lumens each.

Plants- 
2xMazari Sharif
1x Purple Kush
1xBubble Gum

All 4 were vegged outdoors (for slightly too long) then brought indoors and put directly under 12/12 LED/CFL combo.

(*end short version, stay tuned for pics later tonight*)

*Long Version*-


Recently, I've been looking a lot into LED lighting. I've heard both sides of the story and wanted to see what all the talk was about. Here is what I found:

*LED LIGHTING vs HPS LIGHTING* - 
There really is no normal comparison that can be used in terms of lighting. You can't compare watts, you can't compare lumens, and you can't compare wave lengths. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses, and both are loved in their own way. 

*LED- Pros*
-Cheaper electrical bill - BUT, not as cheap as you might think. To keep up with HPS, it has been shown that you need about half the Watt output + soft white fluorescents. 

-Generates MUCH less heat.

-50,000 hour lifetime on some fixtures

-All light is emitted at targeted wave lengths to optimize plant growth and flowering.

*LED - Cons*
-Very expensive initial cost. Personal units over 350w will cost over $1000, and higher as you climb in wattage. But, you can save a lot of money by looking around a little. Factory direct ordering will save you hundreds of dollars without sacrificing quality. 

-Still very new technology, up until this last year or so there were only red and blue spectrum lights. Now there are tri, quad, and five spectrum lights incorporating orange, white, and deep reds. Who knows what's to come next year?

*HPS - Pros*
-Reliable, very widely used and much more material is available regarding setup, costs, expected yield, etc.

-Very high intensity light, brightest warm white bulbs available.

-Used as the "gold standard." You will never see a thread asking how a HPS compares to this or that, it's alwats the other way around - always compare to what's considered the best.

*HPS - Cons*
-Expensive electrical bill.

-High cooling costs due to heat from the lamps.

-Bulbs don't last longer than a few harvests.

*
Why LEDs then?*
Well, I decided I need to try this out for myself to really see what the fuss is about. So, I looked into the claims that seemed too good to be true: "90w LED out perform 450hps" or "300w out performs 100wHPS," and came to the conclusion that yes, they ARE too good to be true. No 90w LED is going to outperform a 450w HSP. But, how much can it actually out perform HPS? Most people stopped caring when the original claim was shut down, but just how much can LED actually produce, watt for watt?

My second reason for trying LEDs, besides curiosity, was the heat factor. Due to housing accomodations for the next year or so, I only have a small 5x5 closet with no ventallation. HPS would simply generate too much heat.

*The cheapest route:*
LEDs are far from cheap, I've seen 90w UFOs ranging upwards of $450 for one fixture. So, I made a limit. I gave myself $1000 (I'll explain why so high in a minute) to get as many watts into my 5x5 grow area as I could.

After much searching, I found a few companies that were direct LED manufacturers rather than middle men dealers. Because of this, I got all 4 LEDs for just under $180 each. The 2 CFLs were about $30 each including bulb and socket. Lights ended up totalling $780 at 496 watts total. The remaining was spent on all my nutrients. Running low on funds, I built my own grow tent for $50 with PVC and reflective material. It's no commercial grade tent, but it'll ge the job done.
*
Why add CFLs?*
Most testing done with LEDs has shown that while the red and blue spectrum are the most used light wavelengths in plant growth, there are still wavelengths needed in white light that the LEDs don't offer. Supplementing 2500-2700k warm white CFLs is suppose to make LED/CFL combo grows yield much more than 100% LED grows and 100% CFL grows. The suggested amount is about 1/2w of CFL per 1w of LED light (roughly half); hence, my set up of 360w LED and 136w CFL.

*What is this grow trying to prove?* *Efficientcy! *
Basically, I want to see how long it takes for LED to make up for it's cost, based on it's yield. The average 1000w HPS grow with cooling and electric usually comes out to around $160+ per month depending on set-up (can vary). A new 1000w setup, including reflector, ballast, and bulb runs about $400-500 total. That's a total fixture cost difference of $280-$380.


So let the test begin - ~500w mixed LED/CFL grow

_***This is a isolated case, results will not guarantee similar yield with equal set-up. Grow is legal under CA state law, medical proposition 215. _


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## Kaoms (Aug 18, 2009)

What brand LEDs did you purchase?


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## Syr (Aug 18, 2009)

Here are the pics. There are 4 plants, 2xMazari Sharif, 1 bubble gum, and 1 purple kush. All of them were vegged from clones outdoors until I got my setup. It took a little longer than expected, so they got a little big. The Mazari started flowering a week early outdoors, so they are a little ahead of the bubblegum and the purple kush, but not much. 

The Mazari's are just starting week 4 and the other 2 are starting week 3. They just got over a little nutrient burn and are doing great now! Crystals are starting to pop up on the nugs and leaves on the Mazaris. The Purp is starting to get close, and the bubble gum is trailing. 

It's a 4x4 grow box built in a 5x7 closet, no ventalation other than a cracked open door and 2x 9" house fans. Never had a heat issue and I'm in week 3 under the LEDs.


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## triconomics (Aug 19, 2009)

The 120 watt led lights work alot better. I don't trust the quality of the 90 watt UFO lights.


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## triconomics (Aug 19, 2009)

triconomics said:


> The 120 watt led lights work alot better. I don't trust the quality of the 90 watt UFO lights.


http://growitled.com/


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## SupraSPL (Aug 19, 2009)

Hi Syr. Props for adventuring into new technologies! I have been reading up on LEDs, spectra etc for about a year and following its progress because I am also very interested in efficiency. Heres a few things I suspect at this point. 

-UVB should be included for maximum potency
-most UFOs/panels supply blue wavelengths that miss the other action peak centered on 425nm
-many UFOs/panels include more blue than is necessary for optimum flowering?
-2700K LEDs could replace all the 2700K cfls, decreasing heat increasing efficiency
-2700k will be less necessary once all the action peaks are covered
-orange (630nm) LEDS should be included and spread across the UFO
-custom built LEDs tailored to our needs might be easier to build than we think
-high powered LEDs are needed for large grows because of their throw, but are unable to take advantage of the inverse square law. despite their low heat, they cannot be placed right on top of the plant without causing leaf twisting (supposedly). so for smaller grows where only the canopy needs illumination, lower powered LEDs can be used which increases efficiency/decreases cost.

Syr, do have any ideas about the inclusion of the IR LEDs? Also can you express how loud the cooling fans are on the UFOs?


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## Syr (Aug 19, 2009)

SupraSPL said:


> Hi Syr. Props for adventuring into new technologies! I have been reading up on LEDs, spectra etc for about a year and following its progress because I am also very interested in efficiency. Heres a few things I suspect at this point.
> 
> -UVB should be included for maximum potency
> -most UFOs/panels supply blue wavelengths that miss the other action peak centered on 425nm
> ...


I've looked into a lot of these options. I am very curious about the UVB, infra-red, and other spectrum of blue. One product that I've heard has incorporated all of those is the 
http://www.indooragriculture.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=40&zenid=hemncmci297035qa1mq3efmvu1

It's rated at just over 400w and has been proven in many many tests to equal 1000w output if used correctly. So far this is the only light I know of that hits all those spectrums. 


As for noise, they run about as loud as a laptop or tower computer. One house fan runs louder than all 4 LED's combined. I'm 10 feet away with the door propped open, and I can't hear a sound in there. So very very quiet. The fans on each UFO do fairly well but are not enough to be the only cooling factor for the LED. I live in a hot area in summer, reaching over 100 in the day, and I haven't needed more than house fans to cool my room. However, if I close my door and remove the outside air flow, it does heat up a bit more than I would like.


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## Syr (Aug 19, 2009)

triconomics said:


> The 120 watt led lights work alot better. I don't trust the quality of the 90 watt UFO lights.


I actually used 2 different companies. This is part of the reason it took so long to get them, I didn't buy the first LED i saw. 

Here are the two companies I used. The price has actually gone up slightly since I bought mine. 
http://www.hydroponicshut.com/

http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=493

CFL'S I bought at Home Depot.


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## Syr (Aug 19, 2009)

For those interested in LED technology, here are some older videos/forums that I found about previous and current grows. 

*Home Made Panel LED testing*
http://www.ledgrow.eu/

*2009 LED Grow*
http://forum.grasscity.com/advanced-growing-techniques/379587-led-grow-2009-a.html

*TI-Smartlamp 1000 vs 1000w HPS*
http://forum.grasscity.com/grow-journals/267898-ti-smartlamp-led-grow-test-take-1-a.html

*700w LED grow panel, LED only grow (week 7 flower)
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEv8jYiyTPw

There are many many more, but these were the most in depth and worth following of all the forums I've found.


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## dagobaker (Aug 19, 2009)

nice looking thread........
i have 2 old school ufo leds and was going to put a 400 hps in the middle and the 2 ufos around..one on each side 
going to pit this against a 600 hps............
20 plants each aeroponics with organic nutes


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## Syr (Aug 19, 2009)

dagobaker said:


> nice looking thread........
> i have 2 old school ufo leds and was going to put a 400 hps in the middle and the 2 ufos around..one on each side
> going to pit this against a 600 hps............
> 20 plants each aeroponics with organic nutes


I was thinking of going aeroponics or ebb and flow for my next grow. I've always wanted to try HPS with LED too. If I can get better ventilation I might try something similar.


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## SupraSPL (Aug 19, 2009)

That just might work considering the combination of spectra would round out the action spectrum very well.


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## Syr (Aug 19, 2009)

Here is a side cola of the Mazar-i Sharif close up. It's hard to get a shot to focus with my camera, so I took this from far away and cropped it.

The resin is beginning to form on the leaves close to the top of the cola, hopefully these nugs will start densing up a little.


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## beeker74 (Aug 21, 2009)

Syr said:


> Here is a side cola of the Mazar-i Sharif close up. It's hard to get a shot to focus with my camera, so I took this from far away and cropped it.
> 
> The resin is beginning to form on the leaves close to the top of the cola, hopefully these nugs will start densing up a little.


 About time someone did this the right way-leds and cfls complement each other well, as is evidenced by your grow.Good work man, you've abandoned the whole bullshit HID comparison thing.And that is the source of my frustration with these lights.If they were just honest about the whole thing-ditched the bogus comparisons, and started putting together led/cfl kits at a reasonable price, I think more people would take this seriously.Keep up the great work.


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## beeker74 (Aug 21, 2009)

http://www.marijuanagrowing.eu/first-grow-thread-diesel-ryder-the-led-box-t31298-80.html this guy is doing something similar to your grow.


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## Syr (Aug 21, 2009)

beeker74 said:


> http://www.marijuanagrowing.eu/first-grow-thread-diesel-ryder-the-led-box-t31298-80.html this guy is doing something similar to your grow.


Thanks for the link! I wish he was a little more organized, doesn't really list his total watts or yield. But, there are some nice looking buds there. 

I keep reading scare stories about LEDs, but my plants are looking great and still have over a month left, so I can't make my estimates on how they'll perform yet. So far, I must say I'm impressed - but weight + smoke will be the real test.


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## beeker74 (Aug 21, 2009)

Syr said:


> Thanks for the link! I wish he was a little more organized, doesn't really list his total watts or yield. But, there are some nice looking buds there.
> 
> I keep reading scare stories about LEDs, but my plants are looking great and still have over a month left, so I can't make my estimates on how they'll perform yet. So far, I must say I'm impressed - but weight + smoke will be the real test.


 dont worry, you've got enough fluoro to make it happen. I went pure led on the recommendation of the guy that runs prosource- a 180w ufo thats no more unique than the tri-bands.Something in that diffuse light that seems to "turn over" the led engine- kick her in.Nobody can explain it but leds and fluoros click.Great grow man, I'm positive it will be successful- you're getting normal bud structure- with pure led the plants seem lost in the flowering phase- strange, uneven growth


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## Syr (Aug 24, 2009)

Here are the Mazar-i-Sharifs at 35 days, the Purple Kush and Bubble Gum are on day 23 (pics of them will come later, having camera issues).


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## Bean 420 (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm at 68 days of flower with A UFO and CFL's https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/indoor-growing/517720d1250804597-my-led-fluoro-grow-1-img_0856.jpg


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## jeebuscheebus (Aug 27, 2009)

I have a similar set up but only two 90 watt UFO.


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## rampagen08 (Aug 27, 2009)

please let me know how this turns out
i am thinking of switching also...


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