# When pseudoscience harms



## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

When skeptics in these forums speak out against faulty beliefs, we often get asked, 'What's the harm?" Why does it matter if someone wants to make a virtue out of faith? What does it hurt if people use psychics to talk to dead loved ones? Why do you feel like the world should pay attention skeptical standards of doubt?

We often answer this question by citing events from history. I'd like to dedicate this thread to current real world examples of magical thinking causing harm, disruption, or unnecessary discourse. Let's put some fish in a barrel and grab our guns.


Obviously there are some heavy subjects and real tragedies that will be listed, but I'll start off with something lite. 

http://www.kplctv.com/story/19275089/letters-regarding-palm-scanning-causes-concern-amongst-moss-bluff-elementary-parents

"I was very, very mad," said parent Mamie Sonnier. "Disappointed."

"Many parents felt that way on Monday after reading a letter sent home with their children from Moss Bluff Elementary School. The letter introduced a new program, the palm vein scanner, to move students through the lunch line at a faster rate. With almost 1,000 students, Principal Charles Caldarera says the system will reduce errors."

Sonnier says she's against the palm vein scanner because of her beliefs.

"As a Christian, I've read the Bible, you know go to church and stuff," said Sonnier. "I know where it's going to end up coming to, the mark of the beast. I'm not going to let my kids have that."


Pseudoscience hinders progress unnecessarily.


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## lokie (Aug 21, 2012)

I do not agree to this type of people herding. I would not want my child scanned that way.


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## Blue Wizard (Aug 21, 2012)

lokie said:


> I do not agree to this type of people herding. I would not want my child scanned that way.


They are already being herded through the lunch line, it seems more efficient than the old punch tickets I used to get when I was a little kid and seems to accomplish the same thing.


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## lokie (Aug 21, 2012)

Blue Wizard said:


> They are already being herded through the lunch line, it seems more efficient than the old punch tickets I used to get when I was a little kid and seems to accomplish the same thing.


In the current method the Ticket is identified as used or not.

The Child is not being scanned to verify if worthy.


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## ctwalrus (Aug 21, 2012)

bahahaha try and stop it.. no use.. overpopulation forces practices like this!


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

lokie said:


> In the current method the Ticket is identified as used or not.
> 
> The Child is not being scanned to verify if worthy.


Are you suggesting that some children are scanned and then turned away as unworthy?


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## C3Pgro (Aug 21, 2012)

This is a very cold inpersonal method of serving up lunch efficiently, but I guess it cant be sunshine and lollipops all the time. I think hiring more staff could be an alternative to this. Its as if these kids were waking up to go to their job at CIA headquarters and retina scanning in lol. A swipe card could also be an alternative.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

C3Pgro said:


> This is a very cold inpersonal method of serving up lunch efficiently, but I guess it cant be sunshine and lollipops all the time. I think hiring more staff could be an alternative to this. Its as if these kids were waking up to go to their job at CIA headquarters and retina scanning in lol. A swipe card could also be an alternative.


I do think it's curious, but harmless and efficient. There really isn't anything 'warm' about business or economics anyway. To me it's no more impersonal than scanning a CC at burger king. Hiring more staff probably translates into more taxes, which would also make parents mad. I don't think the purpose is to verify identity, but to indicate being present in line. Kids would lose cards, forget pins, ect.


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## lokie (Aug 21, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Are you suggesting that some children are scanned and then turned away as unworthy?


I am stating the obvious. scanning a human identifies them as an individual and in turn subjects them to scrutiny and treatment
that would be other wise unwarranted.

Scan a kid, identify it and i'll bet you in most cases its parents will be close by.


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## Rockster (Aug 21, 2012)

Human sacrifice to " the gods ", the Dark Ages, The Crusades, the Inquisition, child rape by priests, partition of India, Northern Ireland, 9/11, 7/7 and the other 98% of _all_ terrorist outrages caused by militant Islam, spreading aids in Africa by missionaries, witch burning in Africa due to Evangelism, right wing christians keeping their kids dumb by denying evolution and global warming, suppression of knowledge, Galileo, Copernicus, etc, etc, etc......

I could go on, _for hours, _but it's so damn depressing writing about man's self made mind forged manacles.

Science flies men to the moon, religion just flies them into buildings.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

lokie said:


> I am stating the obvious. scanning a human identifies them as an individual and in turn subjects them to scrutiny and treatment
> that would be other wise unwarranted.
> 
> Scan a kid, identify it and i'll bet you in most cases its parents will be close by.


You call it stating the obvious, I call it begging the question. Anonymity was never an option, even with card punching. The card still identifies which account to charge. How does scanning better identify a child than card punching, aside from avoiding fraud and stolen cards?


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## lokie (Aug 21, 2012)

I can write any name on a card, the kids could trade/give/sell the cards.

Scan the kid. now the system could dictate the fat little girl who is failing in math get a different meal/porition
than the rest.

Millions of commuters ride public transportation everyday and few have to scan flesh to ride.

Personal ID is not needed to speed up a cafe line.


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## olylifter420 (Aug 21, 2012)

What progress is lost?

She will be the only child not partaking in such a program. Unless one bad apple spoils the whole bunch, then thats fucked up. I do not see how progress is lost if she is the only child not using the system, while other children opt to take part in such a program.

Everyone should have the right to do what they please with their own body, to deny them the right, well we are stepping back in time.






Heisenberg said:


> When skeptics in these forums speak out against faulty beliefs, we often get asked, 'What's the harm?" Why does it matter if someone wants to make a virtue out of faith? What does it hurt if people use psychics to talk to dead loved ones? Why do you feel like the world should pay attention skeptical standards of doubt?
> 
> We often answer this question by citing events from history. I'd like to dedicate this thread to current real world examples of magical thinking causing harm, disruption, or unnecessary discourse. Let's put some fish in a barrel and grab our guns.
> 
> ...


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

lokie said:


> I can write any name on a card, the kids could trade/give/sell the cards.
> 
> Scan the kid. now the system could dictate the fat little girl who is failing in math get a different meal/porition
> than the rest.
> ...


You objections seem to be to policy, and not technology. The article stated that some parents were complaining of their accounts being charged when their children did not eat. So the current system was not anonymous. Do you have a problem with any system that reliably identifies the kids, or does the scanning make it different?

What is stopping fat little Susie from already having her meals dictated? Wouldn't the same thing that stops it now, stop it with the scanning system? Are they unable to find Susie's table? No one is saying scanning is needed, just that it's efficient. For sure it not needed to identify a kid and sanction their lunch.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> What progress is lost?
> 
> She will be the only child not partaking in such a program. Unless one bad apple spoils the whole bunch, then thats fucked up. I do not see how progress is lost if she is the only child not using the system, while other children opt to take part in such a program.
> 
> Everyone should have the right to do what they please with their own body, to deny them the right, well we are stepping back in time.


Not lost, hindered unnecessarily. I support her right not to partake, but as you said, if enough kids refuse the technology would be abandoned Surely you can imagine more important situations where this sort of reasoning could really lead to tragedy. And I am not knocking her religious ideas, I am knocking her ability to keep them in perspective, to let them effect choices which have nothing to do with religion. I mean, the device does not even leave a mark on the children, it scans their veins like a fingerprint. Her logic is not even consistent with what her beliefs say.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 21, 2012)

Wow, Heis. This thread is getting a slower start than you probably imagined, and you started off with such a light example of magical thinking. Can't wait to read the responses to the heavier issues magical thinking brings about, like the child witches in Haiti, or vaccinations causing autism, or organic vs. conventional food, or Homeopathy...


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## olylifter420 (Aug 21, 2012)

I see what you mean and yes, there are fucked up snowball effects everywhere both religious and non religious.

I was simply viewing from the perspective that she would be the only child not using the system and progress would be made.

And i do think homeopathic remedies have their place, so what. Like science backed meds kill plenty, id take my chances going the natural route. However, medical assistance should be seeked if the ailment is life threatening.






Heisenberg said:


> Not lost, hindered unnecessarily. I support her right not to partake, but as you said, if enough kids refuse the technology would be abandoned Surely you can imagine more important situations where this sort of reasoning could really lead to tragedy. And I am not knocking her religious ideas, I am knocking her ability to keep them in perspective, to let them effect choices which have nothing to do with religion. I mean, the device does not even leave a mark on the children, it scans their veins like a fingerprint. Her logic is not even consistent with what her beliefs say.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> I see what you mean and yes, there are fucked up snowball effects everywhere both religious and non religious.
> 
> I was simply viewing from the perspective that she would be the only child not using the system and progress would be made.
> 
> And i do think homeopathic remedies have their place, so what. Like science backed meds kill plenty, id take my chances going the natural route. However, medical assistance should be seeked if the ailment is life threatening.


I think I see your point. No reason to single this mother out because progress will still happen and it's her choice to be left behind if she wants. I agree, I was simply giving an example of faulty reasoning effecting real life choices.

As for homeopathy, I think you misunderstand what it is. It's not simply going the natural route, which BTW I don't have a problem with. Homeopathy however does two things I wonder if you agree with.

1) It says like cures like. So, if you have a headache, we give you some drug that we know causes headaches. If you feel nauseous, we give you a substance that is known to cause nausea. If you can't sleep, we give you caffeine. I am not making this up or twisting it around. Any homeopathy practitioner will tell you the same.

2) Water has memory. We put the drug we decide to give you into some water, and then dilute that water thousands of times. We dilute it so much that the chance of even one molecule of the drug still being present in the water is astronomical. Homeopaths do not deny that this is so. They admit there is no drug in that water, but they say water has a memory if you mix it a certain way, so the water will act like the drug.

In the end they sell you a pill or vial who's active ingredient is pure water. When we forget that it's water, and test it for results through controlled experiments just in case, they only way we can get any positive results is if we are sloppy. When we are sloppy, we can get the same results from tap water. The more careful we are, the less evidence we see of homeopathy working.

Homeopathy is not herbs or diet or natural substances, it's magic water. Do you still feel homeopathy has it's place?


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 21, 2012)

...nice thread Heis. I have 2 quick questions.

...one of them is, are these people being used as examples displaying real faith? Should we define it for the sake of argument?

...the second question is, what if faith has metaphysical properties we do not know about? For all we know, faith could be fueling the sun, man 

edit: here's a really cool take on faith:

"Faith is the direct perception of what is real, it is fundamental wisdom; it is the experience of that which is beyond the body, the affections and the mind. We must distinguish between faith and belief. Beliefs are found stored in the Intermediate Mind. Faith is a characteristic of the Inner Mind. Unfortunately, there is always a general tendency to confuse belief with faith. Although it seems paradoxical, we emphasize the following: &#8220;Those who have true faith do not need to believe.&#8221; This is because genuine faith is living knowledge, exact cognition, and direct experience."

*side note - faith and our sexual functioning are tied together "hardcore" (hehe...) It takes willpower to have faith. It takes having a grasp on something else  to have willpower.

-anywho, this is just my understanding, at present


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## Wilksey (Aug 21, 2012)

*



I'd like to dedicate this thread to current real world examples of magical thinking causing harm, disruption, or unnecessary discourse. Let's put some fish in a barrel and grab our guns.

Click to expand...

*Don't know if this fits into your "magical thinking" category, however, it IS bullshit, and ultimately detrimental to our society.

"Men and women are equal....."

This particular piece of "magical thinking" has lead to millions of dollars of wasted time, money, and resources in a wide variety of public, and private, sector career fields, all in the name of "equality".

Despite the fact that males of our species hold EVERY-SINGLE strength, speed, and endurance record in athletics, this belief in "equality" has lead to inefficient and costly applicant screening processes, and lowered standards in a wide range of fields requiring the strength and endurance inherent in males.

From firefighters, to police, to the military, females must be included in the application and training process, and instead of meeting male standards, are often time given lower standards of their own, all in the name of "equality". What we end up with is an inferior product that costs us the same as the superior product, and at the same time actually endangers the lives of the superior product. All in the name of "equality".

Certainly there has to be some "magical thinking" going on when idiots believe a 5'4" female will garner the same respect, and be able to complete the same physical tasks, as her 6' 180lb male coworker. That never works in the olympics, or in any other athletic endeavor, and we shouldn't pretend it works in other career fields.

"Magic" indeed...


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 21, 2012)

^ phew, glad I didn't have to write that one!

(can see the validity in some points, though - I can safely take the 'facts are facts in the physical realm' stance here)

- but




...


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## Heisenberg (Aug 21, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...nice thread Heis. I have 2 quick questions.
> 
> ...one of them is, are these people being used as examples displaying real faith? Should we define it for the sake of argument?
> 
> ...



Z and I are having a discussion about this topic in https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/554049-raised-christian-have-some-faith.html, perhaps you want to join us.

I don't intend for this thread to focus solely on religious faith. Actually I think that sort of thing gets enough exposure around here. I'd like to highlight other examples of faith based thinking, to demonstrate than when we teach people that faith is a virtue, we open them up to suffering and hardship. We are not free to allow faith to trump real world data, as we see when we try to apply it to real world stuff.


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## olylifter420 (Aug 22, 2012)

True, i did have a misunderstanding. I thought it was about natural routes, what would natural routes fall under?

After those statements, i see that homeopathy if all homeopaths practice like that, then yes, it does not have a place in personal health modalities. 

So what would you call the chiro who also uses blood testing then supplementing with whatever he feels will get your blood work back to proper levels?







Heisenberg said:


> I think I see your point. No reason to single this mother out because progress will still happen and it's her choice to be left behind if she wants. I agree, I was simply giving an example of faulty reasoning effecting real life choices.
> 
> *As for homeopathy, I think you misunderstand what it is. It's not simply going the natural route, which BTW I don't have a problem with. Homeopathy however does two things I wonder if you agree with.
> *
> ...


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## olylifter420 (Aug 22, 2012)

Fuck off with your sexism macho shit douche.

Females have all the right in the world to apply to which ever fucking job they wish and do whatever they wish to do.

Your draconian ways of thinking are what to me in my opinion has hindered our advances. If you ask me, women are extremely intelligent and put attention to detail. Shit us dudes have the smallest of patience for, women do it with ease.

Just imagine if women had equality since the dawn of time? Where we would be


Fuck off again..

Being a strength and conditioining specialist, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about with women athletics. Females work harder then their male cunterparts. They know they have to prove themselves everywhere they go cause of retards like you.

You try running a 21second 200meter sprint or try running a 100meter sprint in 10.7seconds. You cant. Try pole vsulting, you cant. Try triple jumping, you cant.

Swim against missy franklin, you cant cause you suck.

Try beating the chick from the univeristy of conneticut that plays point guard on a one on one and try to beat her, you cant cause you suck.

Try clean and jerking 418pounds, you cant cause you suck and are weak.

I can go on and on, but i think you get the point.

On an aside, i also strongly believe you support the raping and stoning of women. 




Wilksey said:


> *
> 
> Don't know if this fits into your "magical thinking" category, however, it IS bullshit, and ultimately detrimental to our society.
> 
> ...


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## mindphuk (Aug 22, 2012)

_And try as I like,
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy dike.
"By definition", I begin
"Alternative Medicine", I continue
"Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
Do you know what they call "alternative medicine"
That's been proved to work?
Medicine."_


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## Wilksey (Aug 22, 2012)

> *Being a strength and conditioining specialist, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about with women athletics. *


As a former military muldoon, I am well aware of what it takes to develop and perform strength, speed, and endurance tasks, as I was required to both perform, train, and assess, the execution of those tasks over a 20 year span. However, unlike our athletic counterparts in the civilian sector, we intentionally incorporated sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and unfavorable environmental conditions into our training, which contributes significantly to the "suck factor" of a wide variety of tasks. So, yes, I do "have a clue" from a training standpoint.

I have seen first hand how females slow down a formation, and increase the load requirements for their male counterparts forced to carry their kit due to the biological differences (lack of strength and endurance) between genders.

How many female athletes would be competitive against their male counterparts in the same Olympic events? None. Examine the records, it's all there, and it's not because of "sexism", it's because of biology and evolution.


Certainly, in this day and age this view is not popular in many circles, however, nothing I have said is wrong, and is based on empirical evidence easily found by researching the results of competition sports, and through my own experiences alike. To believe otherwise is to ignore the facts, and is akin to ignoring science in favor of "faith".

As a strength and conditioning specialist, if YOU had to assemble a team required to perform physical tasks of strength, speed, and endurance, where would YOU look? The females? If your life depended on it, you would want the strongest, and the fastest in each event, and that individual will be male. Every single time.

That's not sexist.

That's biology.

Best to you, regardless.


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## olylifter420 (Aug 22, 2012)

I had a feeling you were in the military with your sexist attitude. 

Like i said, you probably condone the rape of your female counterparts being that are military. 

It would suck to find out you were married with your sexism agenda.

Like i said, once you can run a 200meter sprint under 21seconds or beat missy franklin in a swim sprint or after you can beat the world record clean and jerk for females, please, keep you dangerous beliefs to yourself






Wilksey said:


> As a former military muldoon, I am well aware of what it takes to develop and perform strength, speed, and endurance tasks, as I was required to both perform, train, and assess, the execution of those tasks over a 20 year span. However, unlike our athletic counterparts in the civilian sector, we intentionally incorporated sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and unfavorable environmental conditions into our training, which contributes significantly to the "suck factor" of a wide variety of tasks. So, yes, I do "have a clue" from a training standpoint.
> 
> I have seen first hand how females slow down a formation, and increase the load requirements for their male counterparts forced to carry their kit due to the biological differences (lack of strength and endurance) between genders.
> 
> ...


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## cannabineer (Aug 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...nice thread Heis. I have 2 quick questions.
> 
> ...one of them is, are these people being used as examples displaying real faith? Should we define it for the sake of argument?
> 
> ...


Eye, I would counter that "real" faith must still be consistent with what is real. 
Very very few people have real faith in Revelation-type stuff, like the mark of the beast ... most who profess it do so because it's been presented to them as a package deal. "Believe in God, and you automatically believe in _____". 

It also seems to me that you are seeking to define real/true faith as a force that can exceed or transcend the natural. I would have an easier time subscribing to this if this excursion could be harnessed, disciplined, found to conform to a pattern of invocation ... but tales of the paranormal seem to me bedeviled (!) by an essentially wilful contrariness. I see a harmful result, esp. in a Christian context: the mandate to have sufficient faith in order to effect a promised magical outcome, combined with not achieving that magical outcome, leads to a recursion, a retreat from a healthy engaging of the world as it is, as the person seeking sufficient faith tries harder and harder, desperately jettisoning sense in the pursuit of the transcendent thing. Jmo. cn


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## Grandpapy (Aug 22, 2012)

Columbus city looses over $2000.00 a day? It's not the lunch lady. So wont be of much help.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 22, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Wow, Heis. This thread is getting a slower start than you probably imagined, and you started off with such a light example of magical thinking. Can't wait to read the responses to the heavier issues magical thinking brings about, like the child witches in Haiti, or vaccinations causing autism, or organic vs. conventional food, or Homeopathy...


Lol, I was thinking the same thing, and good suggestions. Next subject I plan on tackling is facilitated communication.


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## Wilksey (Aug 22, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> I had a feeling you were in the military with your sexist attitude.
> 
> Like i said, you probably condone the rape of your female counterparts being that are military.
> 
> ...


Beliefs?



> Clean and jerk world records:
> 
> Males: 580 lb.
> Females: 412 lb.
> ...


These are not "beliefs".

These are facts. 

Cold, hard, biological facts that no amount of name calling or accusations of "sexism" can change. When you need to screen for the fastest, the strongest, and the ones with the most endurance, the pool you choose from should be males. To ignore that fact is to ignore biology, wastes time and resources, and leaves you with an inferior product.

However, based on your hostile and emotionally charged responses, I would imagine that facts don't concern you regarding this issue. There's a lot of that going around in our society. Too much.


Happy harvests to you regardless.


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Eye, I would counter that "real" faith must still be consistent with what is real.
> Very very few people have real faith in Revelation-type stuff, like the mark of the beast ... most who profess it do so because it's been presented to them as a package deal. "Believe in God, and you automatically believe in _____".
> 
> It also seems to me that you are seeking to define real/true faith as a force that can exceed or transcend the natural. I would have an easier time subscribing to this if this excursion could be harnessed, disciplined, found to conform to a pattern of invocation ... but tales of the paranormal seem to me bedeviled (!) by an essentially wilful contrariness. I see a harmful result, esp. in a Christian context: the mandate to have sufficient faith in order to effect a promised magical outcome, combined with not achieving that magical outcome, leads to a recursion, a retreat from a healthy engaging of the world as it is, as the person seeking sufficient faith tries harder and harder, desperately jettisoning sense in the pursuit of the transcendent thing. Jmo. cn


...dude, that was so well written that I've been thinking about it for a while now. What if people turned their televisions off for a bit - would that help the magical attachment to faith with no underpinnings?

*as a force that can transcend - to this I have to say yes, 100% (imho). That force, along with others, are more palpable with the use of self-restraint. I'm a little bit sure that most religious documents are pointing to the same thing. Some 'thing' eternal. What the natural mind can comprehend is what is visible, immediately attainable - fair to say? Interesting also that buddhists place a lot of faith on faith. Oy


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## tyler.durden (Aug 22, 2012)

Good posts, Wilksey. Effective points; well reasoned and backed up with facts. Good to see you here...


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## cannabineer (Aug 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...dude, that was so well written that I've been thinking about it for a while now. What if people turned their televisions off for a bit - would that help the magical attachment to faith with no underpinnings?


It most probably would. People would have less choice to avoid getting in touch with their natures, and that of nature. My TV only comes on when I want to watch something from my modest library of DVDs, or the library's even more modest collection. Tonight, M*A*S*H Season Three beckons once the bubble has been imbibed. 
I have also begun playing with meditation. My success rate/intensity is still beginner-low, but I am accessing a positively psychedelic manifold ... cn


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> It most probably would. People would have less choice to avoid getting in touch with their natures, and that of nature. My TV only comes on when I want to watch something from my modest library of DVDs, or the library's even more modest collection. Tonight, M*A*S*H Season Three beckons once the bubble has been imbibed.
> I have also begun playing with meditation. My success rate/intensity is still beginner-low, but I am accessing a positively psychedelic manifold ... cn


...that intro music from mash is untouchable. A 'major' part of my childhood


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## cannabineer (Aug 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...that intro music from mash is untouchable. A 'major' part of my childhood


Do you remember when the intro themes from popular prime-time shows would end up playing on Top 40 radio? Like Starsky&Hutch? That was weird. cn


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## eye exaggerate (Aug 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Do you remember when the intro themes from popular prime-time shows would end up playing on Top 40 radio? Like Starsky&Hutch? That was weird. cn


...I watched starsky & hutch, but my awareness of radio was not as compelling as tv yet. If I'm not mistaken, my pj's might still have had 'feet' on them


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## cannabineer (Aug 22, 2012)

eye exaggerate said:


> ...I watched starsky & hutch, but my awareness of radio was not as compelling as tv yet. If I'm not mistaken, my pj's might still have had 'feet' on them


Not mine ... household was metric.  cn


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## olylifter420 (Aug 23, 2012)

Dude, you are retarded.

You are ignoring the first questioned posed to you, can you beat any of these female record holders?

I know you cant, so how does that make you feel? You get beat by the thing you hate the most.

It dont matter if others support what you say, you are still a bigot ans sexist dude. Others just support you to go against what i say.

You give females no chance to show they can succeed. Biological factors are limited cause they are related to internal functions. Real world applications are what count, women out perform men in many areas

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-31549315/women-stars-outperform-men-in-new-jobs/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417475/Women-now-out-number-and-out-perform-men-at-all-universities-study-finds.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/16/study-womens-teams-outper_n_501380.html


I dont hate women like you do, i believe in equality for all no matter what "biological" whatever shit said they have.


So are you married? And why do you hate women so much?




Wilksey said:


> Beliefs?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Beefbisquit (Aug 24, 2012)

olylifter420 said:


> Dude, you are retarded.
> 
> You are ignoring the first questioned posed to you, can you beat any of these female record holders?
> 
> ...



*steps out of the shadows*

Ok, hold on a second.

Oly, you're not comparing like and like. Top male athletes outperform top female athletes, it's nothing personal against women; it's because men have more muscle mass than women. We're naturally larger and stronger, which makes us more suited to particular tasks. All that has been said is that in high stress situations like military operations, law enforcement, firefighting, etc., that we should eliminate double standards, because the cost of failure is too high.

If females meet the single standard, there's no issues; the problem is most of the time it's not a single standard. Females are often judged by their own standards which in a life or death situation, has the potential to put lives at risk.

Didn't you ever play sports as a kid? Didn't you ever play the 'girls team' in an exhibition game? I've gotten triple hat tricks playing the girls team... yeah... 9 goals in one hockey game. Oh, did I mention they were Midget and we were Bantam? They were two years older than us, but we weren't allowed to body check... why do you think that is? Also, how many females can bench press 1100lbs, or leg press 2300lbs?

Why don't male UFC fighters fight women too? Maybe because it'd be a fucking blood bath? 

Now, that being said; there's jobs that females are better suited to also. Women show higher aptitudes in different areas than men, and excel at some things better than men. It goes both ways, Oly. 

So, are you _really_ telling us you think men and women are physically equal?


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## Heisenberg (Aug 24, 2012)

The quackery-related death of a 17-month-old girl has sent shock waves across Canada. No one aspect of the story is unusual. The scenario is a classic combination of cultural vulnerability, modern urban mythology and quackery.

The Victim:
Dead from malnutrition and pneumonia is Lorie Atikian. Eight months before her death on September 25, 1987, Lorie was a perfectly healthy baby. When she died she was nearly bald, covered with deep red rashes, and so emaciated that the paramedics thought they were being tricked by being given a doll to treat.

The Parents:
Lorie's parents Sonia, 38, and Khochadour, 54, are emigres from Lebanon and Syria. In addition to Lorie, the couple has two teenaged children. Like many people these days the Atikian's were concerned about modern food additives, pesticide residues, and drugs. Their cultural background may have made them a bit more vulnerable, but like most people they held positive attitudes toward "natural" food and medicine. Sonia became enamored with Gerhard Hanswille, an "herbologist."

The Promise:
Hanswille's compelling vision of natural health made a convert of Sonia. When she became pregnant with Lorie in 1985 Hanswille convinced her to remain "pure" for the sake of the child. She testified that Hanswille promised to make Lorie a super baby. "That baby is going to be very different. Its going to develop without chemicals. Its going to be strong and pure...it going to be very special." Hanswille convinced Sonia that vaccinations would "poison" her child, and that ultrasound examination would damage an unborn baby's brain. 

The Regimen:
Hanswille advocated an organic, vegetarian diet. He sold the Atikians a special juicer for $400 alleging that their own juicer "burned the nutrition" out of fruits. Among the special products the Atikians purchased from Hanswille were a bottle of baby oil that cost $16, a bar of soap costing $7.40, and a 3 kg box of laundry detergent that cost $35.99.

When Lorie became ill she was treated with royal jelly, "cell salts" (homeopathy), and an herbal concoction brewed by Hanswille. He also treated Lorie with an electromagnetic "vitalizing" machine that "stimulates the blood" and has attachments such as an electrified comb that "livens up the hair." Sonia Atikian testified that they became very concerned about Lorie's condition but that Hanswille assured them that it was normal for clumps of her baby's hair to fall out and not to worry if Lorie didn't gain weight. Hanswille told Sonia that taking Lorie to a hospital would be like "holding a loaded gun to Lorie's head and pulling the trigger."

How Unusual Is This Case?

The sad story of the death of little Lorie Atikian received national coverage in Canada by the Toronto Star (5/10-6/13) and The Globe and Mail. It is the kind of story that elicits harsh blame of the parents for their gullibility. "How could they have been so foolish?" is the usual response. The reality is that most of the public is sympathetic to the underlying assumptions that condemn modern food, commercial agriculture and extol "natural" medicine. The herbal industry is trying to distance itself from Hanswille by saying that the case is "not typical." However, we believe that what Hanswille told the Atikians is not only widely believed by health food and natural (herbal) medicine ilk; it largely represents the philosophy that is used to justify the existence of "alternative" medicine and herbalism. 



The above was taken from The National Center Against Health Fraud

This story represents faith in a man and faith in an ideology. The parents had every reason to doubt, yet proceeded anyway because of their faith. You may think that it is unfair to call this faith, or that the parents were victims of a con man. This is true faith without the window dressings of religion. Faith masquerades as many things, but this is what it looks like naked. Faith is wishful thinking. Con men use faith as a staple of their cons. It's used not only to exploit, but to defend. It's no coincidence that many of the con man's tricks have their counterparts in religion.

You may even agree with some of these ideas. Do you feel 'chemicals' are dangerous? Do you feel organic food is healthier? Are you concerned about pesticides and preservatives? Then I guess you agree with at least some of the ideology behind this, and your real problem with these parents was the extent of their faith.

Faith greases the wheels of pseudoscience and lends itself perfectly to deceit. Perfect faith is perfect delusion.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 24, 2012)

Great post, Heis. A few years ago, I was very taken in by alternative medicine, mainly by Kevin Trudeau's tripe. There is a chink in my critical thinking armor, I have an irrational mistrust of the concept of external authority: anyone outside of myself that knows better how I should live. I've also had a history of bad luck with MDs, DDSs, etc.. So I'm more susceptible than most when it comes to conspiracy theories, gov't cover-ups and the like. At the time I fell under Trudeau's spell, I was just coming off a bout of recurring ear infections that a few MDs couldn't do much about. When I started down a 'natural' path and alternative medicine, my infections cleared up quickly. I now know that my reasoning was non-sequitur, i.e. I have a cold, I take vitamin C, therefore vitamin C cures colds. I would only buy organic or natural foods and meats, much to the dismay of my wallet. I thought organic was much more nutritious, safer and didn't use any pesticides. I was surprise to find out how wrong this was. I had a lot of faith in one man and an industry that was all too happy to sell me things. With our biases and weaknesses of logic and reasoning in certain areas, It's easy to get seduced by misinformation that fits into these chinks. One must stay vigilant


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## cannabineer (Aug 24, 2012)

I have had execrable luck with MDs.
I have had equally execrable luck with alternative practitioners.
cn


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## Beefbisquit (Aug 25, 2012)

Two words.

Quantum Mysticism....

I know a guy that claims that 'science' "knows nothing" because of the observer effect. Basically, his reasoning is that no tests are reliable because the act of testing changes the results. 

For example, if you check the air pressure of the tires on your car, you've actually had to let air out to check, therefore changing the results of the data, meaning the pressure before testing has to be greater than the tested pressure. He attempts to delve into these diatribes about the slit experiment, where the behaviour of light changes depending on if it's being observed or not. He then _somehow_ tries to explain this in terms of human consciousness affecting normal everyday things

He takes this to the extreme and denies all sorts of legitimate tests, claims reptilian people exist, listens to some gentleman named Bashar who claims to be an interdenominational being, believes he can travel on the astral plane, believes he is psychic, believes in palm reading, etc., etc., ad nauseum. 

I'm very concerned that he has the potential to father children and perpetuate the idiocy.


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## cannabineer (Aug 25, 2012)

Beefbisquit said:


> Two words.
> 
> Quantum Mysticism....
> 
> ...


I just had the most inappropriate vision of Schrödinger's [Wife's] Ovum. cn


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## tyler.durden (Aug 25, 2012)

Beefbisquit said:


> Two words.
> 
> Quantum Mysticism....
> 
> ...


Sounds like a protege of Chopra. He's another guy that likes to throw around terms of science like non-locality and quantum healing. He uses these terms literally until someone calls him on it, then he says it's just metaphor. The Profit, indeed...


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## Beefbisquit (Aug 26, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Sounds like a protege of Chopra. He's another guy that likes to throw around terms of science like non-locality and quantum healing. He uses these terms literally until someone calls him on it, then he says it's just metaphor. The Profit, indeed...


I like the clip where Physicist Leonard Mlodinow is speaking with Chopra, and Chopra asks his for some instruction with his 'quantum terminoology' and Mlodinow agrees to tutor him, but only if the conversation is 'local', not 'non-local'.

Hilarity ensues!


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## H R Puff N Stuff (Aug 26, 2012)

if i were to choose from a pool of people to goto war or any other extreme situation i would like to choose from the entire pool not limit myself to just males unless my task was tug of war then i see your point


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## Beefbisquit (Aug 26, 2012)

H R Puff N Stuff said:


> if i were to choose from a pool of people to goto war or any other extreme situation i would like to choose from the entire pool not limit myself to just males unless my task was tug of war then i see your point


I was referring to physical tasks only.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 26, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> Great post, Heis. A few years ago, I was very taken in by alternative medicine, mainly by Kevin Trudeau's tripe. There is a chink in my critical thinking armor, I have an irrational mistrust of the concept of external authority: anyone outside of myself that knows better how I should live. I've also had a history of bad luck with MDs, DDSs, etc.. So I'm more susceptible than most when it comes to conspiracy theories, gov't cover-ups and the like. At the time I fell under Trudeau's spell, I was just coming off a bout of recurring ear infections that a few MDs couldn't do much about. When I started down a 'natural' path and alternative medicine, my infections cleared up quickly. I now know that my reasoning was non-sequitur, i.e. I have a cold, I take vitamin C, therefore vitamin C cures colds. I would only buy organic or natural foods and meats, much to the dismay of my wallet. I thought organic was much more nutritious, safer and didn't use any pesticides. *I was surprise to find out how wrong this was.* I had a lot of faith in one man and an industry that was all too happy to sell me things. With our biases and weaknesses of logic and reasoning in certain areas, It's easy to get seduced by misinformation that fits into these chinks. One must stay vigilant


What was it that made you realize the marketing scheme?


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## Heisenberg (Aug 26, 2012)

Beefbisquit said:


> Two words.
> 
> Quantum Mysticism....
> 
> ...


I have a friend like this as well. He believes the zombie virus is loose in Florida. He thinks colloidal silver cures aids. I have never let him know I am a skeptic. It would only amount to pointless conversation while I am usually looking to end our exchanges asap.


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## BustinScales510 (Aug 26, 2012)

Here is another doozy..the story of the girl whose parents tried to pray away her diabetic coma..*spoiler alert*, it didnt work.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1877352,00.html


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## tyler.durden (Aug 26, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> What was it that made you realize the marketing scheme?


I was a fan of Trudeau early after purchasing a course entitled 'Mega Memory'. It really was an amazing little system, if for no other reason than I've won literally thousands of dollars worth of bar bets with it: I would bet someone that I could remember any 100 words they said aloud to me; if they gave me the word, I could tell them the number, and perhaps more impressively, vice versa. You know, the first slap in the head was that Trudeau was endorsing Scientology. He explained that he wasn't into it personally, but 'whatever works.' What? Whatever works? I don't want to be one of those people, I've always wanted to know what's really going on. I started following up on more of his claims, like the miraculous benefits of organic food. No pesticides? Sometimes. More nutritious? 0 evidence. Better tasting? Penn & Teller did a BS where they do a blind taste test at a famous organic farmer's market. The hippies chose conventional over the organic most of the time. The distance the fruits & vegetables have to travel and the time spent in storage have a lot more to do with the quality of produce than the method by which they're grown. I could get into the body magnets, h202 therapy, and various cleanses I purchased, but I'm too embarrassed  Almost no claim he made was confirmed by any credible source, so it wasn't too hard (barring the hurt pride) to abandon those unsupportable beliefs...


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## mindphuk (Aug 26, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I was a fan of Trudeau early after purchasing a course entitled 'Mega Memory'. It really was an amazing little system,.


Yep, a great system...that he stole from Harry Lorayne without giving him any credit.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 26, 2012)

mindphuk said:


> Yep, a great system...that he stole from Harry Lorayne without giving him any credit.


Figures. It was way to effective for a hack like Trudeau to originate...


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## Heisenberg (Aug 26, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I was a fan of Trudeau early after purchasing a course entitled 'Mega Memory'. It really was an amazing little system, if for no other reason than I've won literally thousands of dollars worth of bar bets with it: I would bet someone that I could remember any 100 words they said aloud to me; if they gave me the word, I could tell them the number, and perhaps more impressively, vice versa. You know, the first slap in the head was that Trudeau was endorsing Scientology. He explained that he wasn't into it personally, but 'whatever works.' What? Whatever works? I don't want to be one of those people, I've always wanted to know what's really going on. I started following up on more of his claims, like the miraculous benefits of organic food. No pesticides? Sometimes. More nutritious? 0 evidence. Better tasting? Penn & Teller did a BS where they do a blind taste test at a famous organic farmer's market. The hippies chose conventional over the organic most of the time. The distance the fruits & vegetables have to travel and the time spent in storage have a lot more to do with the quality of produce than the method by which they're grown. I could get into the body magnets, h202 therapy, and various cleanses I purchased, but I'm too embarrassed  Almost no claim he made was confirmed by any credible source, so it wasn't too hard (barring the hurt pride) to abandon those unsupportable beliefs...


Trudeau ranks right up there with Silvia Browne and Peter Popoff in the douche category. I believe he is banned from making informationals for anything other than books these days, since you can't ban speech. He has been fined and sued numerous times, but those penalties are a drop in the bucket compared to what he rakes in. Same is true for any of them, and these are three people that must know what they are doing. They are not self deceiving. They are knowingly manipulating people's wishful thinking.


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## tyler.durden (Aug 26, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> Trudeau ranks right up there with Silvia Browne and Peter Popoff in the douche category. I believe he is banned from making informationals for anything other than books these days, since you can't ban speech. He has been fined and sued numerous times, but those penalties are a drop in the bucket compared to what he rakes in. Same is true for any of them, and these are three people that must know what they are doing. They are not self deceiving. They are knowingly manipulating people's wishful thinking.


Wish you were there to tell me this 8 years ago. By the by, your new avatar makes me think twice before I answer


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## ctwalrus (Aug 27, 2012)

it appears as if beardo is trying to get banned... 


on the subject at hand... 
overpopulation makes this problem irreversible and unstoppable.


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## BustinScales510 (Aug 27, 2012)

Ooooooh controversial. A GG Allin picture from the Reagan era..better not put that on an album cover or you might get Tipper Gore all upset.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 29, 2012)

This isn't about harm directly, but since homeopathy was brought up.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1807-fda-ensures-magic-rituals-are-done-properly.html

The FDA looked at a large homeopathic company and found,

"b. The investigator also observed for Batch #36659 that one out of every six bottles did not receive the dose of active homeopathic drug solution due to the wobbling and vibration of the bottle assembly during filling of the active ingredient. The active ingredient was instead seen dripping down the outside of the vial assembly. Your firm lacked controls to ensure that the active ingredient is delivered to every bottle."

"c. The dosing process has not been validated appropriately. Specifically, your surrogate validation study, &#8220;Medication of un-medicated pillules with (b)(4),&#8221; visually demonstrates the variability of the amount of (b)(4) for the pillules in one vial. Your firm lacks control of the variation for the amount of the active ingredient in the pillules." 

So for who knows how long these homeopathic vials and pills were not getting a regulated balanced dose of active ingredient, and 1 out of every 6 was getting no active ingredient at all. Yet not one practitioner or patient noticed. If these were actual medicinal drugs, like antibiotics, how quick do you suppose users would notice?

Homeopathy is wishful thinking


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## tyler.durden (Aug 29, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> This isn't about harm directly, but since homeopathy was brought up.
> 
> http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1807-fda-ensures-magic-rituals-are-done-properly.html
> 
> ...


I would ask what the 'active' ingredient was supposed to be. I'm sure that at least a molecule or two of it got into every bottle, simply from being in the same room as the vials. Under the homeopathic rules, wouldn't that make the vials that received less of the ingredient more effective?


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## Heisenberg (Aug 30, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I would ask what the 'active' ingredient was supposed to be. I'm sure that at least a molecule or two of it got into every bottle, simply from being in the same room as the vials. Under the homeopathic rules, wouldn't that make the vials that received less of the ingredient more effective?


Ha, that's an excellent question. Another one is, why is it impossible for a seasoned practitioner of homeopathy to distinguish between a vial of dosed water and a vial of pure water? Without visually seeing the 'active ingredient' miss going into the vial, there is no way to confirm it wasn't there. There is no test or method possible to determine after the fact which vials got the drug.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 30, 2012)

Lets move on to a particular kind of evil, Facilitated Communication.

"Facilitated communication (FC) is a process by which a person referred to as the "facilitator" supports the hand or arm of a communicatively impaired individual while using a keyboard or other devices with the aim of helping the individual to point and thereby to communicate." 

This is actually helpful in a few situations and on the surface it doesn't look too different than other methods we have of helping people communicate. And that is just it, the people it does work for can obviously attempt to communicate in the first place, and would probably benefit from better methods. For the most part, FC is unnecessary and inefficient even in the few individual cases where it can work, unless it is a stepping stone to something more self-reliant. Many children can benefit from speah therapy, develop a gesture-based language, or use technological augmentation on their own. But these things are hard and take time to get results, FC is offered up as an easy breakthrough and often at the exclusion of other methods.

The problem comes when this is applied to severe autism or retardation.

"The American Psychological Association has issued a position paper on FC, stating that "Studies have repeatedly demonstrated that facilitated communication is not a scientifically valid technique for individuals with autism or mental retardation" and describing FC as "a controversial and unproved communicative procedure with no scientifically demonstrated support for its efficacy."

Many people accept that FC can be used to connect to a mind that has never made significant attempts itself to engage in communication. Parents believe their children who have never spoken before are somehow suddenly conveying concepts and emotions. Some individuals are unable to even look at the keyboard or the screen, yet somehow are still believed to be picking the letters.

Of course it's been shown that the person assisting FC is really the one doing the communicating. As you can guess, this is easy to test. We tell the individual a secret word, but not the facilitator, and ask for it to be typed. That's it. That's all it takes to tell if the experience is real. When the facilitator is unable to produce the secret word, we know something else is going on. In many cases simply changing the facilitator changes the tone of the communication significantly.

The explanation lies in the ideomotor effect. The same phenomenon which convinces people Ouija boards and dousing rods are real.

"The ideomotor effect is a psychological phenomenon wherein a subject makes motions unconsciously. As in reflexive responses to pain, the body sometimes reacts reflexively to ideas alone without the person consciously deciding to take action." 

So because of this effect, even the facilitator can believe the patient is doing the talking, and not them. One of the most common things for a first timer to communicate is "I love you mommy". Imagine trying to tell someone who's child just expressed love for the first time ever that it was not real. It's an appeal to wishful thinking that is near impossible to overcome.

So what's that harm? Even is it isn't real, if the parents believe it, who cares as long as everyone feels love. Well you don't have to think about it too much before the problems arise.

One possible result is that the child 'requests' life changes that they don't really want. These can just be harmless changes in clothing or hairstyle preference, it can also lead to significant changes in medical and educational treatment. Also, many children simply do not want to do it, and scream to get away. FC practitioners hold the belief that what the child is saying does not reflect what he is thinking, it's a common thing to tell parents.

And of course, there is this,

We took Josh for a physical. We felt somewhat reassured when the doctor reported no physical signs of sexual molestation. But that reassurance was soon to evaporate. 


I asked Josh's teachers and therapists how he could communicate like this. "He can talk," I said, "but he cannot read, write or spell." They said they could not explain it, but that FC was a miraculous new 'thing" that unlocked hidden intelligence. 


Although we were doubtful, we trusted these professionals. And we wanted to believe our son was intelligent enough to have taught himself to read, write and spell. We went along with their recommendation that Josh should continue using FC. 


As months passed, it continued to be facilitated that Josh was being abused, was not protected by his family, or wanted to leave home to be safe. At one point, the police were called in to investigate claims he was making "plots and ploys to murder" his family. 


I allowed the police to question Josh because they agreed to provide me with a videotape of the interview. It was heartrending to watch 43 minutes of Josh struggling with the facilitator, using spoken language to repeatedly say, "Can I stop now? Can I go back to the room? No, no, no! I don't want to do this." He repeatedly yanked his hand away from hers, turned the typewriter off and looked around the room while she "facilitated," concentrating intently on the keyboard. When an officer suggested that our son might want to stop, the facilitator repeated the FC lore--what he says isn't valid; just pay attention to what is typed. The investigation continued. 


A few weeks later, Josh's grandfather was accused of sexual abuse. My involvement was implied by a facilitated statement about "the ploy by my mother to appear normal." 


We were distraught. If our son had been abused by anyone, we certainly wanted to know, but none of this made sense. Josh had never spoken about anything remotely resembling sexual molestation. Yet his teacher claimed this communication was coming from him. 


A final "facilitated" police interview resulted in a typed sheet describing specific graphic sex acts involving me. I was hysterical after reading the accusations. School personnel then said they were convinced that, although these were his words, Josh was lying. The detective in charge decided not to file any charges. 


Despite that decision, I cried for weeks. I was terrified my child would be taken away from me, or that I might be arrested or forced to leave my home. I couldn't understand how the sweet, funny, talkative child I loved could have done this. Or why. 


Then I discovered he didn't do it. We experimented with our own electric typewriter. I had believed Josh's hand could not be pushed to keys he didn't want to press, but I soon discovered that, holding his hand, I could spell whatever I wanted. If I looked away from the keyboard, the words turned to gibberish. 


At our insistence, the school stopped using FC with Josh. His recovery from FC began the day he entered a new classroom. After months of having his spoken language ignored, he was finally being valued for himself again. 

Story in more detail here

And of course, this is not isolated. Many, many children who undergo facilitated communication end up accusing someone of abuse, rape or neglect. Families lose their children, face expensive court battles, and become estranged from loved ones based on something which has no demonstrable validity. Even at it's most benign, it still robs parents of truly knowing who their child is. This should be an easy pseudoscience to expose, but it is kept alive and well by wishful thinking, aka faith.


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## Heisenberg (Aug 30, 2012)

Here is a great vid showing what FC is, in case my description was lacking.

[video=youtube;FWBTgTiS7aE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWBTgTiS7aE[/video]


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## Heisenberg (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.december212012.com/articles/news/Ready_for_Doomsday.htm

"Public concern is so high that NASA, the U.S. space agency, even has a section debunking the theories of impending doom on its website. The agency says it has taken more than 10,000 questions from people, some asking if they should kill themselves, their families or their pets."

"Another, a 13-year-old American, wrote: &#8216;I am considering suicide. I am scared to tears?.?.?. I don&#8217;t want to live any more, I deserve an explanation.&#8217; A third wrote: &#8216;I am so scared. My only friend is my little dog. When should I put her to sleep so she won&#8217;t suffer when the Earth is destroyed?&#8217;

"Worried Americans are rushing to buy everything from $17 survival guides to $32,000-per-person places in bunkers that are marketed as being both nuclear bomb and asteroid-proof. Robert Vicino is a Californian businessman who is building the luxury bunkers in secret locations. His website asks: &#8216;What if the prophecies are true? Which side of the door do you want to be on?&#8217;


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## tyler.durden (Dec 20, 2012)

^^ Wow. Stop dicking around, Heis! You only have one day left


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## Heisenberg (Dec 20, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> ^^ Wow. Stop dicking around, Heis! You only have one day left



If I only had one day left I would be dicking around more than usual. In fact in that case it might be a good idea to put the pets to sleep.


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## cannabineer (Dec 22, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> If I only had one day left I would be dicking around more than usual. In fact in that case it might be a good idea to put the pets to sleep.


Makes'em harder to dick well, though. cn


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## tyler.durden (Dec 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Makes'em harder to dick well, though. cn


I'd think it would make it easier


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## cannabineer (Dec 22, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> I'd think it would make it easier


It'll be a floppy dicking. cn


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## tyler.durden (Dec 22, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> It'll be a *floppy dicking*. cn


That was the name of our band in HS!


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## Padawanbater2 (Dec 22, 2012)

Heisenberg said:


> http://www.december212012.com/articles/news/Ready_for_Doomsday.htm
> 
> "Public concern is so high that NASA, the U.S. space agency, even has a section debunking the theories of impending doom on its website. The agency says it has taken more than 10,000 questions from people, some asking if they should kill themselves, their families or their pets."
> 
> ...


If you think about it, that 13 year old kids parents do exactly the same thing most American parents do... scare their kids so much there's no other option _but_belief..


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## Heisenberg (Dec 26, 2012)

http://fox4kc.com/2012/12/21/jury-awards-over-100m-to-parents-of-misty-horner-in-wrongful-death-suit/?religionnewsblog.com

According to court testimony, the Horner&#8217;s and Leather were part of a church created by John Horner, who believes himself to be an &#8220;apostle&#8221; and who preached that prayer will heal physical ailments, not modern medicine.

According to investigators, Caleb Horner performed an emergency episiotomy on Misty Horner with a pair of scissors as the baby, named Sydney, was born dead and in a breach position. Investigators say that Misty Horner was septic and suffering from a terrible infection. Misty Horner&#8217;s parents say that they were kept away from their daughter, but when they finally saw her she was clearly dying. They asked Caleb Horner to take their daughter to the hospital, but they say he refused, calling the situation &#8220;God&#8217;s will.&#8221;

Witnesses say that at one point, Misty Horner put her clothes on to go to the hospital, but was convinced that she just needed to believe in God&#8217;s healing power.
Misty Horner&#8217;s best friend, Tina Moore, testified that their religion required Misty Horner to be submissive to her husband at all times. In December 2006, Misty went into labor. According to Moore, Caleb Horner hired two midwives who were unqualified to deliver a baby, as Moore said they asked her to look up information in guide books.

During her testimony, Moore said Caleb Horner blamed the baby&#8217;s death on his wife&#8217;s family, calling it &#8220;generational sin&#8221; and that it was God&#8217;s way of punishing them.


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## tyler.durden (Dec 26, 2012)

^^ I grew up around this kind of shit, Heis, as my mother was a Christian Scientist. She would often pray for our injuries or sicknesses instead of immediately taking us to the hospital, and this was encouraged by the church. Luckily, she wasn't a fanatic and the times when our illnesses got worse, she broke down and took us to the docs. She felt guilty when she did this, and prayed for her faith to strengthen. Even as a small child I could sense this was whack, I think it took a lot of work for the adults to consider it otherwise...


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## Heisenberg (Feb 22, 2013)

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/02/pertussis_epidemic_how_vermont_s_anti_vaxxer_activists_stopped_a_vaccine.single.html


Imagine coughing so hard and for so long that you turn blue and stop breathing. Pertussis, or whooping cough, can do that to an infant. The disease is caused by the bacterium Bordetella pertussis and occurs in three stages. The catarrhal stage, characterized by runny mucous, is highly contagious. Its followed by the paroxysmal stageunstoppable, sustained, violent coughing accompanied by a whoop when you inhale. (Listen to a baby with whooping cough here, or see a video of a boy with whooping cough here.) In the final, convalescent stage, a cough can linger for several weeks. Pertussis can affect anyone, but it poses the most danger to infants. 


A pertussis vaccine became available in the 1940s, and incidence of the infection dropped from around 200,000 per year to barely over 1,000 by 1976. But today the United States is in the middle of a pertussis epidemic. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, more than 41,000 cases of pertussis were reported nationwide in 2012. At least 18 people have died, mostly infants younger than 3 months of agetoo young to be fully vaccinated. There hasnt been such a major outbreak since 1959. The states with the most cases per capita are Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Vermont.

By the time the Legislature reconvened in the capitol building, the anti-vaccination community had organized itself. They were in the building every day, in peoples faces, Till says. The activists blared the discredited claims of Andrew Wakefield that vaccines do more harm than good, that vaccines cause autism. Wakefield, a British physician, was stripped of his medical license for fabricating a connection between vaccines and autism. Till could not believe what was happening: He is God to these people. Millions of lives have been saved through vaccines, numerous scientific studies have debunked the myth that vaccines cause autism, and the only studies to show a link have been exposed as frauds. Yet anti-vaxxers were successfully spreading misinformation.

Schools and homes are where disease spreads. And in Vermont, Till says there are pockets of unimmunized posing a threat to their communities, especially in the hot spots of anti-vaccination. One such hot spot lies outside the capital, Montpelier. These young parents were born in the vaccine era and have not seen devastating diseases, he says. Till says these parents are picking and choosing which vaccines they give to their children. One of the vaccines these parents are most often choosing not to give their children is against polio.


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## tyler.durden (Feb 22, 2013)

^^ Good post, Heis. I've seen whooping cough in action with both my ex's kid and my own son, it is fucking scary. I hate to admit it, but I fell for that anti-vaccine propaganda about a decade ago. Luckily, my ex didn't give a fuck how I felt about (anything) that, and got our kid all of the normal vaccinations. When I started on my journey of thinking more critically, I searched out peer review for claims. The vaccine-causes-autism claims were destroyed instantly. I had more reason to believe that tripe than most, as my ex's boy happened to be autistic...


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## Beefbisquit (Feb 22, 2013)

tyler.durden said:


> ^^ Good post, Heis. I've seen whooping cough in action with both my ex's kid and my own son, it is fucking scary. I hate to admit it, but I fell for that anti-vaccine propaganda about a decade ago.* Luckily, my ex didn't give a fuck how I felt about (anything) that,* and got our kid all of the normal vaccinations. When I started on my journey of thinking more critically, I searched out peer review for claims. The vaccine-causes-autism claims were destroyed instantly. I had more reason to believe that tripe than most, as my ex's boy happened to be autistic...



HAHAHAHA.... oh shit, man.... I almost fell outta my chair!


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## Padawanbater2 (Apr 23, 2013)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/2nd-child-pa-couple-dies-praying-19020607#.UXbOTbXCZ8F

PA couple's 2 year old kid gets sick in 2009, they refuse to take it to a hospital and decide to pray for it instead, it dies of pneumonia, the couple gets put on 10 years probation. Now, their second kid, an 8 month old, became sick, instead of taking it to a hospital, they, again, decided to pray for it instead, it dies of diarrhea and complications of breathing. 

Scumback fundie fucktards, they deserve life behind bars. Stop having kids you're too stupid to raise, son of a bitch this pisses me off.


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## tyler.durden (Apr 23, 2013)

^^ Yahweh would be proud of these two fools. Shit, he only asked Abraham to sacrifice ONE son. How can one's faith mean more than their new born children, that is beyond sick. ESPECIALLY AFTER LOSING YOUR FIRST BORN! These are the people Penn was speaking of at the end of this video - 

[video=youtube;swkAGExZCII]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkAGExZCII[/video]


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## Heisenberg (Apr 23, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/2nd-child-pa-couple-dies-praying-19020607#.UXbOTbXCZ8F
> 
> PA couple's 2 year old kid gets sick in 2009, they refuse to take it to a hospital and decide to pray for it instead, it dies of pneumonia, the couple gets put on 10 years probation. Now, their second kid, an 8 month old, became sick, instead of taking it to a hospital, they, again, decided to pray for it instead, it dies of diarrhea and complications of breathing.
> 
> Scumback fundie fucktards, they deserve life behind bars. Stop having kids you're too stupid to raise, son of a bitch this pisses me off.


Thanks Pad, sharing this with my FB group.


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## Heisenberg (May 2, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;uhzoxqmqRM0]http://youtu.be/uhzoxqmqRM0[/video]


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## Padawanbater2 (May 2, 2013)

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/01/belief-in-end-times-stifling-climate-change-action-in-u-s-study/


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## Heisenberg (May 6, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/01/belief-in-end-times-stifling-climate-change-action-in-u-s-study/


Heh, I just came here to post this. ^


Guess i'll go with this instead --> http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/baby-dies-whooping-cough-orange-co/nXXqP/



*Baby dies from whooping cough in Orange Co.*

"It's really unfortunate. We're saddened to hear that an infant died of something like this," said Dain Weister with the Florida Department of Health in Orange County.

Officials said the family chose not to vaccinate their child. Some parents are choosing not to fully vaccinate their children because they worry there is a link between the vaccinations and autism.

"A lot of people may not know (that) even the person who did that study admitted that study was flawed," Weister said.

Health officials said that has caused vaccinations to drop and the number of cases of measles, pertussis and other preventable diseases to go up.


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## Padawanbater2 (May 6, 2013)

When someone says they think there's a link between vaccines and autism, the first thing that comes next is 'Jenny McCarthy'. Her work has actually led to the deaths of babies.

Many-a-loads have also been spilled in her name from her other works... damn, that lady is a baby killing machine it seems!


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## DoctorGregHouse (May 6, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> When someone says they think there's a link between vaccines and autism, the first thing that comes next is 'Jenny McCarthy'. Her work has actually led to the deaths of babies.
> 
> Many-a-loads have also been spilled in her name from her other works... damn, that lady is a baby killing machine it seems!


And if the religious folks among us believe what they do about conception, her spreads in Playboy have killed thousands of other babies if you know what I'm sayin'







Fuck that woman...on a semi-related note, Mr. Jim Carrey there used to.


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## Heisenberg (May 6, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;ZwygIG7z1jI]http://youtu.be/ZwygIG7z1jI[/video]

[youtube]BN6udfxuS3w[/youtube]


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## Heisenberg (May 8, 2013)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/amanda-berrys-mom-told-pyschic-sylvia-browne-berry/story?id=19126853#.UYqR7ErNmSp

"A year after Amanda Berry disappeared in Cleveland, her mother appeared on "The Montel Williams Show" to speak to a psychic about what happened to her daughter. "


"Psychic Sylvia Browne, who has made a career of televised psychic readings, told Louwanna Miller on a 2004 episode of the show that her daughter was dead, causing Miller to break down in tears on the show's set. "


"She's not alive, honey," Browne told Miller on the show, according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper. "Your daughter's not the kind who wouldn't call." 


"Miller told the newspaper that she believed "98 percent" in what Browne told her. Miller died a year later from heart failure."

"On Monday, Berry was found alive after she broke free from a home in Cleveland where she says she has been kept for the past decade."


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## ginjawarrior (May 8, 2013)

Padawanbater2 said:


> When someone says they think there's a link between vaccines and autism, the first thing that comes next is 'Jenny McCarthy'. Her work has actually led to the deaths of babies.
> 
> Many-a-loads have also been spilled in her name from her other works... damn, that lady is a baby killing machine it seems!


needed link to jenny McCarthy body count


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## Beefbisquit (Jul 3, 2013)

http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/7/3/wis-court-upholds-convictions-of-parents-who-prayed-for-dying-girl-instead-of-going-to-doctor


Parents let their daughter die by refusing to get medical attention. Instead, they prayed....

Now, ask yourself this; why are they going to jail if god exists? I can almost guarantee that the judge that sentenced them to jail is a Christian. So, if the Judge really believed that god has a plan for everyone, and that praying is _real_ and has _real_ effects, then why do we sentence people to life in jail when they pray, and their children die? Are we supposed to intervene with gods plan to save the kids? If god wanted the parents to take their child to the hospital, it would be immeasurably easy for god to communicate that to the parents. So either, god said 'no' to saving the child, and Christians don't really believe that prayer works (hence sentencing them to life), or God said 'no' to saving the child and the Judge is pissed that god made that decision, and is punishing the parents unjustly for the crime of god..... OR.... god doesn't exist and we need to make laws because god has NEVER enforced a law, EVER in the existence of the universe. I'm putting my money on the latter....

Fucking religion... lol


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## The BLaKsmith (Jul 4, 2013)

wow it's hard to believe people out there watch their kids die because they think that praying will cure them just like that and I was raised christian


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 4, 2013)

The BLaKsmith said:


> wow it's hard to believe people out there watch their kids die because they think that praying will cure them just like that and I was raised christian


Now imagine if it were a video game that the parents said they learned their parenting skills somehow, there would be NATIONAL debates about how violent video games need to be outlawed and all this other bullshit, yet clear cut case of Christianity leading to the death of a kid by indirectly mentally castrating both of the retards who bred it, no debates, no attention, no coverage...


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## thepenofareadywriter (Jul 4, 2013)

Heisenberg said:


> I do think it's curious, but harmless and efficient. There really isn't anything 'warm' about business or economics anyway. To me it's no more impersonal than scanning a CC at burger king. Hiring more staff probably translates into more taxes, which would also make parents mad. I don't think the purpose is to verify identity, but to indicate being present in line. Kids would lose cards, forget pins, ect.


so aren't most of those kids that are being scanned in that lunch line on some type of government aid such as food stamps and housing? and would they scanned those that pay cash.


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## kpmarine (Jul 4, 2013)

thepenofareadywriter said:


> so aren't most of those kids that are in that lunch line on some type of government aid such as food stamps and housing?


No, every kid that gets a cafeteria lunch is in a lunch line.


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## thepenofareadywriter (Jul 4, 2013)

kpmarine said:


> No, every kid that gets a cafeteria lunch is in a lunch line.


talking about those that get scanned to clarify that they are eligible for free lunch


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## kpmarine (Jul 4, 2013)

thepenofareadywriter said:


> talking about those that get scanned to clarify that they are eligible for free lunch


I don't recall it being about free lunches. It was effectively a replacement for the meal card my parents used to buy me as a kid.


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## tyler.durden (Mar 18, 2014)

Good. This charlatan has caused enough damage for one lifetime, I even fell for some of his shit way back when...


http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/tv-pitchman-kevin-trudeau-sentencing-250594051.html?fullSite=y&_osource=SocialFlowFB_CHBrand

*Kevin Trudeau Sentenced to 10 Years In Prison*

*Jurors convicted Kevin Trudeau in November for defying a court order*


*By Phil Rogers and Courtney Copenhagen*

*| Monday, Mar 17, 2014 | Updated 7:21 PM CDT* 
Judge Ronald Guzman: "This case is about his refusal to follow court orders. To tell people the truth. That's just not that hard." 



 A federal judge sentenced TV pitchman Kevin Trudeau Monday to 10 years in prison for bilking consumers through his infomercials.
In November, jurors convicted Trudeau of defying a court order barring him from running infomercials that made false claims about his book, "The Weight Loss Cure They Don't Want You to Know About."
Prosecutors say he aired the infomercials anyway, at least 32,000 times.
Before sentencing, Judge Ronald Guzman described Trudeau as "deceitful to the very core," and said he "requires a sentence that will deter him from future conduct of the same type."
"Since the age of 25, he has steadfastly attempted to cheat others for his own individual gain," Guzman said in court. "He has treated federal court orders as if they were merely suggestions ... to be mistreated, side-stepped or ignored."
Trudeau asked for leniency in court, promising to be a "better person."
 "I had a true awakening since being incarcerated four months ago," Trudeau said. "I've been stripped of ego, defiance, arrogance and pride. It's made me a better person. I'm not the same person I was seven years ago when I made the infomercial."
"I wish I could turn back the clock and never made the statements I made in the infomercials. Making those statements were a mistake and I am sorry."
Trudeau also apologized to anyone who bought his book and felt misled.
The 10-year sentence was requested by prosecutors, while defense lawyers contended Trudeau should serve less than two years for his criminal-contempt conviction.
"There is no doubt that along the way some people have been helped by what he's done," Guzman said. "But this case is about his refusal to follow court orders. To tell people the truth. That's just not that hard."


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## Heisenberg (Mar 29, 2014)

tyler.durden said:


> Good. This charlatan has caused enough damage for one lifetime, I even fell for some of his shit way back when... http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/tv-pitchman-kevin-trudeau-sentencing-250594051.html?fullSite=y&_osource=SocialFlowFB_CHBrand *Kevin Trudeau Sentenced to 10 Years In Prison* *Jurors convicted Kevin Trudeau in November for defying a court order* *By Phil Rogers and Courtney Copenhagen* *| Monday, Mar 17, 2014 | Updated 7:21 PM CDT* Judge Ronald Guzman: "This case is about his refusal to follow court orders. To tell people the truth. That's just not that hard." A federal judge sentenced TV pitchman Kevin Trudeau Monday to 10 years in prison for bilking consumers through his infomercials.  In November, jurors convicted Trudeau of defying a court order barring him from running infomercials that made false claims about his book, "The Weight Loss Cure They Don't Want You to Know About." Prosecutors say he aired the infomercials anyway, at least 32,000 times. Before sentencing, Judge Ronald Guzman described Trudeau as "deceitful to the very core," and said he "requires a sentence that will deter him from future conduct of the same type." "Since the age of 25, he has steadfastly attempted to cheat others for his own individual gain," Guzman said in court. "He has treated federal court orders as if they were merely suggestions ... to be mistreated, side-stepped or ignored." Trudeau asked for leniency in court, promising to be a "better person." "I had a true awakening since being incarcerated four months ago," Trudeau said. "I've been stripped of ego, defiance, arrogance and pride. It's made me a better person. I'm not the same person I was seven years ago when I made the infomercial."  "I wish I could turn back the clock and never made the statements I made in the infomercials. Making those statements were a mistake and I am sorry." Trudeau also apologized to anyone who bought his book and felt misled. The 10-year sentence was requested by prosecutors, while defense lawyers contended Trudeau should serve less than two years for his criminal-contempt conviction. "There is no doubt that along the way some people have been helped by what he's done," Guzman said. "But this case is about his refusal to follow court orders. To tell people the truth. That's just not that hard."


 Coming soon, The secret cures for blue balls that prison inmates don't want you to know about!


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## tyler.durden (Mar 29, 2014)

Heisenberg said:


> Coming soon, The secret cures for blue balls that prison inmates don't want you to know about!


 Fucking hilarious


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## Red1966 (Mar 29, 2014)

Heisenberg said:


> Are you suggesting that some children are scanned and then turned away as unworthy?


 Why else are they being scanned?


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## Red1966 (Mar 29, 2014)

Heisenberg said:


> You call it stating the obvious, I call it begging the question. Anonymity was never an option, even with card punching. The card still identifies which account to charge. How does scanning better identify a child than card punching, aside from avoiding fraud and stolen cards?


 Clearly, you have no idea what a punch card is. A punch card isn't connected to any "account". There is a hole in the card. X number of holes in the card and it is used up. When the card is used up, you get another. Much like a subway token, but used more than once.


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## Red1966 (Mar 29, 2014)

olylifter420 said:


> I had a feeling you were in the military with your sexist attitude. Like i said, you probably condone the rape of your female counterparts being that are military. It would suck to find out you were married with your sexism agenda. Like i said, once you can run a 200meter sprint under 21seconds or beat missy franklin in a swim sprint or after you can beat the world record clean and jerk for females, please, keep you dangerous beliefs to yourself


 You ignore what is in front of your face because it disagrees with your idea of equality. Clearly, men and women are different. Thus unequal. Is one better than the other? Depends on the task at hand. And the individual. Calling his beliefs "dangerous" is just demonizing those who don't agree with you. A common excuse by tyrants to persecute and murder throughout history. Accusing him of condoning rape is no more excusable than he accusing you of the same.


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## Red1966 (Mar 29, 2014)

olylifter420 said:


> Dude, you are retarded. You are ignoring the first questioned posed to you, can you beat any of these female record holders? I know you cant, so how does that make you feel? You get beat by the thing you hate the most. It dont matter if others support what you say, you are still a bigot ans sexist dude. Others just support you to go against what i say. You give females no chance to show they can succeed. Biological factors are limited cause they are related to internal functions. Real world applications are what count, women out perform men in many areas http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-31549315/women-stars-outperform-men-in-new-jobs/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417475/Women-now-out-number-and-out-perform-men-at-all-universities-study-finds.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/16/study-womens-teams-outper_n_501380.html I dont hate women like you do, i believe in equality for all no matter what "biological" whatever shit said they have. So are you married? And why do you hate women so much?


 Pretending he hates women just because he disagrees with you is asinine. Just as is accusing him of condoning rape. Are you really so intellectually void?


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## Red1966 (Mar 29, 2014)

Heisenberg said:


> I have a friend like this as well. He believes the zombie virus is loose in Florida. He thinks colloidal silver cures aids. I have never let him know I am a skeptic. It would only amount to pointless conversation while I am usually looking to end our exchanges asap.


 This is a "friend"?


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## Red1966 (Mar 29, 2014)

kpmarine said:


> No, every kid that gets a cafeteria lunch is in a lunch line.


 That doesn't even imply they have a card. Fail


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## Red1966 (Mar 29, 2014)

Heisenberg said:


> Coming soon, The secret cures for blue balls that prison inmates don't want you to know about!


 At least until you find out that YOU are the cure.


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