# What is the difference between SHATTER, WAX, OIL, BUDDER?



## scorche224 (Apr 16, 2012)

from my research they are all made the same, the differences with them are the consistency...? 

Would anyone be so kind to explain & help me out? :3


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## gioua (Apr 17, 2012)

it's all thc man... some here are "more sensitive" to certain methods but in the end it's all thc. diffs are methods made to make the end product. some like no chemicals to be use and will use dry ice or water/ice some like bho or iso or goats milk made on a full moon with only a 4 year old female goat who eats fresh oats made from a organic farm... but honestly after using and trying all the methods.. it's all going to be as good as the original product just in a condensed form...


me I like the goats milk method!


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## scorche224 (Apr 17, 2012)

goats milk.....?

........... mattrize whar r u!


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## borothumb (Apr 17, 2012)

yes different consistencies. usually depends on how you go about making it though, i wouldn't say they are all made the same way.

mattrize claims to shit on them all with his "ice wax" because it is much cleaner and doesn't involve butane. would love to try it one day.


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## scorche224 (Apr 17, 2012)

from what ive read all that I listed are made from butane, although budder may confuse you cause the lather


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## theexpress (Apr 17, 2012)

wax/budder= whipped up bho..... shatter= bho that has been extracted once again by pure grain alcohal, then evaporated... each looks diffrent.. wax is waxy looking, budder is a more pale yellow, shatter is like a see threw amber


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## scorche224 (Apr 17, 2012)

<3 thanks bby


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## Mr Miyagi (Apr 24, 2012)

scorche224 said:


> ........... mattrize whar r u!


oh jesus christ here we go....

here ill fill in...

"well it all sucks you see....cuz ice is better...AND YOU CAN BLOW UP MAKING BHO AND ITS REALLY JUST GASOLINE ANYWAYS..SO WHEN YOUR SMOKING BHO ITS LIKE DRINKING GASOLINE.....SO DONT EVEN TRY IT!!! and even if you do, and you do a good job and people love it and praise you and buy the shit out of it.... youre doing it wrong , i promise...so give it up...and try making ice melt glass..
not too mention wax sucks and its all deteriorating and stuff...and its like waxxy...


and sucks
"


there ya go....
rize doesnt even have to chime in now!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



sorry..couldnt help madelf
whoever already touched on it above pretty much nailed it..
however one thing i think they missed is you CAN have an amber clear type "sap" initially after the vac purge before any heating or whipping..i guess it depends on how waxy a strain it is...then you can whip it up into budder or continue heating and drying and make it wax and then you can take said wax, mix it w booze filter it freeze it and you got absolute amber....or aa..not to be confused with 12 step gay-a

you can see in the pics..
first pic is right after vac purge..you can see it IS semi clear pretty much and sap like...could bottle it like that if wanted..
the pic of the oil on paper is also just after the vac purge...before any heating or whipping or winterizing...if you put that into the freezer it would be hardened and could be shattered into pieces..hence the shatter name..
then when i took what was in the bowl and whipped it a bit with some heat, i got the budder in the little containers...
if you take that then spread it out n continueletting it dry on some heat, you can then scrape it up and compress it and it will be like whats in the last pic....a waxxy ball

for the win i prefer budder...its easy to dab, doesnt turn to powder or break apart...just get a lil tool and super easy to dab...plus i like the taste flavor...you dont cook out all the flavinoids..


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## NaturalLiving (Apr 24, 2012)

I suppose this is as good a thread as any to ask and post a picture. I am just now really getting in to refining concentrates further and don't know many in my area that are experienced in this aspect of cannabis. I started with a dark concrete oil that smelled much like the "Purple Crack" it was made from, since this was my first attempt with BHO I only used about 10 grams in the run. The oil was not the smoothest I have had; nor was it the most potent (though it did have a kick), Moving onto winterization I noticed I was out of PGA so I turned to the 91% Iso. After a light pressure filtration I was left with this oil, the texture and movement of the oil is now that of a lightly thicker honey, with a light golden/amber coloring. With this oil the hit is only a little harsher but in a way of its a bit of a kick to the chest but the concentration of cannabinoids has gone up, though the flavor and smell did suffer a bit but I didn't find the smell the most enjoyable in the first place.

My questions are: 
What can be done to improve beyond this step?
What "stage" of BHO am I at now? (and if possible a longshot guess at Cannabinoid concentration)

Please be gentle as I am new to the forum and BHO.


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## Mr Miyagi (Apr 24, 2012)

looks like ur at the end stage i suppose...
i mean if its purged yellow oil which is what it llooks like...
you could now take that oil n whip some air into it with heat, and make a budder type product...
or you could package it as is as a sap or honey oil...
or you could freeze it n shatter it n sell it as shatter...

mmm
did i miss anything?

as far as improving....really just using better buds will help..
harder to tell without physically touching ur stuff..
looks like ur on the right track to me tho..


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## OGDOZJA (Apr 24, 2012)

the degree of temperature when heating the 2nd soluble off, example, amber glass is at 120-130 shatter at 135-140 and all the way up to ear wax which is at 165 so not go over 170. and for the wax, u whip it, the THC get more psychoactive the hotter it gets, however amber glass looks sooo clean. ALSO when making REAL AMBER or WAX u need to use a soluble to remove the butane.


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## OGDOZJA (Apr 24, 2012)

theexpress said:


> wax/budder= whipped up bho..... Shatter= bho that has been extracted once again by pure grain alcohal, then evaporated... Each looks diffrent.. Wax is waxy looking, budder is a more pale yellow, shatter is like a see threw amber


fight club rules!! You dont talk about fight club!!!


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## vertigo0007 (Jun 18, 2012)

OGDOZJA said:


> the degree of temperature when heating the 2nd soluble off, example, amber glass is at 120-130 shatter at 135-140 and all the way up to ear wax which is at 165 so not go over 170. and for the wax, u whip it, the THC get more psychoactive the hotter it gets, however amber glass looks sooo clean. ALSO when making REAL AMBER or WAX u need to use a soluble to remove the butane.


Uh, no. One would only ise these temps if you want your product to be unscented and flavorless. The hotter thc gets, the more it degrades. Degraded thc is absolutely less psychoactive. Additional solvents are NOT NEEDED to remove butane. Good luck with your misinformation.


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## Expialidocious (Jan 20, 2013)

I like using the ISO method, but using a 99% pure ISO. I mean if you can find pure alcohol that would work better. If you follow Rick Simpson's method, it's very easy to make your own OIL that is 100% alcohol free with pretty much nothing more than a rice cooker to boil off the alcohol.


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## vacpurge (Jan 21, 2013)

yeah...no. freezing it doesnt make shatter.. well it does.. but in 2 mins when its room temp, youll find its not shatter anymore.

shatter only comes from a very very potent product, or a properly purged product ("99.5%" or better purged) I wash nice trim with butane... and I get liquid oil, no matter what. a few days ago I rinsed 20 grams of pure kief...and what I got was shatter.. even at room temp. it has a very unique look to it, which I am now realizing.

I find ISO oil to have a "gross" taste to it... im not a fan. I never had liked alcohol, of any sort. so maybe im just biased and stubborn. I like my gasses over alcohols any day  then again, im no expert.


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## Stillblazinit (Feb 19, 2013)

someone needs to make an average purge length for 10g runs of bud to 100g runs of bud.. im guessing 4-16 hour vac purge after the heat tray ?


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## qwizoking (Feb 19, 2013)

Well everything has been said...oh well here goes 1 more time. The differences between butane iso co2 etoh and anything I forgot is minimal after the processing you end up with "pure" thc and crap.. The more washes you do the less flavorfull, for example I prefer the qwiso method then winterizing with etoh then doin a super saturated saline/hexane wash to remove the last of impurities.

Really the difference is ease of smoking (butter) and taste.budder unlike amber still has waxes and icky lipids that can make the smoke harsher and congest your lungs...

Just my 2cents


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## oilmkr420 (Feb 25, 2013)

Before I started using co2 as a solvent, I really wanted to do bubble bags. I love ice water hash, but it comes w plant matter in a high concentration. It totally neglects all the non-polar constituents that get us high. Trichomes are not the only thing that we want. In fact, its really a small protion of overall compounds, that I'm not really bothered if the material has been sifted or bounced in efforts to kief the shit out. So there is a ton of wasted product from bubble bags, bho has a limited narrow spectrum it dissolves, isopropyl doesn't get you high, ethanol has its limitations, naphtha is gross, but co2 has the most stable reactions w any volatile solvent. It is co2 which is the most versatile due to temp/pressure soluability. So the real differences are in the dryness or moisture content and what people name it.


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## blazeher (Apr 10, 2013)

goats! [video=youtube;S9Iq6LA7sZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Iq6LA7sZI[/video]


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## dowork123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Why is everyone saying you have to winterize bho to turn it to shatter....just blow your oil, be gentle with it as the initial tane purges off and the vac purge that bitch on a low constant heat. It will shatter as long as your material is pure, it isn't overheated, it isn't whipped and it's fully vac purged. Heat and lack of purge keep my oils less stable in my experience.


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## dowork123 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hexane is a pain in the ass to purge off and hazardous why do you use that method?



qwizoking said:


> Well everything has been said...oh well here goes 1 more time. The differences between butane iso co2 etoh and anything I forgot is minimal after the processing you end up with "pure" thc and crap.. The more washes you do the less flavorfull, for example I prefer the qwiso method then winterizing with etoh then doin a super saturated saline/hexane wash to remove the last of impurities.
> 
> Really the difference is ease of smoking (butter) and taste.budder unlike amber still has waxes and icky lipids that can make the smoke harsher and congest your lungs...
> 
> Just my 2cents


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## Twitch (Aug 3, 2013)

dowork123 said:


> Why is everyone saying you have to winterize bho to turn it to shatter....just blow your oil, be gentle with it as the initial tane purges off and the vac purge that bitch on a low constant heat. It will shatter as long as your material is pure, it isn't overheated, it isn't whipped and it's fully vac purged. Heat and lack of purge keep my oils less stable in my experience.


becuase there are still fats waxes and lipids in it.....


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## Twitch (Aug 3, 2013)

your posting this up with a simple explanation on how to do something thinking that we havent already possibly tried that

https://www.rollitup.org/concentrates-extracts/624465-bho-vacuum-oil-wax-tutorial.html

a few people on the forums have put this together read it to catch up, other wise welcome to the site


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## greenghost420 (Aug 3, 2013)

vlad explains what the differences are between budder shatter etc find vlads vaporvolumes


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## dowork123 (Aug 4, 2013)

That is your perception that i'm assuming you don't know shit, i'm just repeating what you say you already know because it's that simple...even with waxes and lipids my bho shatters after a vac purge, period.



Twitch. said:


> your posting this up with a simple explanation on how to do something thinking that we havent already possibly tried that
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/concentrates-extracts/624465-bho-vacuum-oil-wax-tutorial.html
> 
> a few people on the forums have put this together read it to catch up, other wise welcome to the site


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## dowork123 (Aug 4, 2013)

I just want you to know i'm not being a dick but for you to assume im coming on here trying to "show you something", you're wrong. I quickly stated my tech only to explain I don't need to winterize to shatter. That's the only statement I am going to make here because I will only discuss personal experience and I do not make wax or budder, I have and I am not a fan. Have a great day ladies and gents!



Twitch. said:


> becuase there are still fats waxes and lipids in it.....


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## vacpurge (Aug 4, 2013)

yes, we know that it doesnt need to be winterized to be shatter.... thats very very basic. most of my vac purged oils end up being shatter...

and im also not a fan of wax/budder, nor am I fan of the rock hard shatter glass stuff that makes shards and crumbs.

my fav texture is the taffy stuff.... it will stretch and bend until you go quick, then its a clean snap. no shards flying all over the place wasting oil and making stuff sticky.


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## Twitch (Aug 4, 2013)

*slaps face* i am the dick ..... your shatter isnt pure like winterized shatter just because you can see through it doesn't mean it doesn't contain 20 to 30 % fats waxes and lipids.

so you say that you dont need to winterize it, yea maybe for yourself. but if you going to come in here and say that you dont see the point in winterizing and then describe your technique and the make comments after words like "*It will shatter as long as your material is pure*" what does this mean??? actually everyone around here would agree that the higher quality stuff waxes up almost immediately (i understand your not talking about waxing but we are talking about quality)...... even with bomb ass fresh flowers you still need to winterized to get the fats waxes and lipids out.
the reason i feel the need to rip ur ass is because you stated that you do not see the need to winterize because you can make shatter just fine, and i am saying your shatter isnt the same as winterized shatter. 

so now that you have been informed that there is a difference between the two, do some some reading and try out winterizing and tell me you dont see a night and day difference.


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## Twitch (Aug 4, 2013)

vacpurge said:


> yes, we know that it doesnt need to be winterized to be shatter.... thats very very basic. most of my vac purged oils end up being shatter...
> 
> and im also not a fan of wax/budder, nor am I fan of the rock hard shatter glass stuff that makes shards and crumbs.
> 
> my fav texture is the taffy stuff.... it will stretch and bend until you go quick, then its a clean snap. no shards flying all over the place wasting oil and making stuff sticky.


yes i have been playing around with purge times and pulling it out right as its waxing so i get a touchable product, but even then my stuff is wax its just taffy like.


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## AlGore (Oct 10, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> *slaps face* i am the dick ..... your shatter isnt pure like winterized shatter just because you can see through it doesn't mean it doesn't contain 20 to 30 % fats waxes and lipids.
> 
> so you say that you dont need to winterize it, yea maybe for yourself. but if you going to come in here and say that you dont see the point in winterizing and then describe your technique and the make comments after words like "*It will shatter as long as your material is pure*" what does this mean??? actually everyone around here would agree that the higher quality stuff waxes up almost immediately (i understand your not talking about waxing but we are talking about quality)...... even with bomb ass fresh flowers you still need to winterized to get the fats waxes and lipids out.
> the reason i feel the need to rip ur ass is because you stated that you do not see the need to winterize because you can make shatter just fine, and i am saying your shatter isnt the same as winterized shatter.
> ...


Just throwing in my two cents. I don't make bho, I get my shatter from the shops, but I've read up on the process quite a bit. I believe what he is trying to say is that "Shatter" is a near absolute of thc, and that it is in-fact possible to run an extraction with enough purity to create hard cracking shatter without having to "polish" it with a polar solvent(eg. winterizing).


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## Twitch (Oct 11, 2013)

AlGore said:


> Just throwing in my two cents. I don't make bho, I get my shatter from the shops, but I've read up on the process quite a bit. I believe what he is trying to say is that "Shatter" is a near absolute of thc, and that it is in-fact possible to run an extraction with enough purity to create hard cracking shatter without having to "polish" it with a polar solvent(eg. winterizing).


*slaps face hard*
ill start off by addressing the topic, you still need a secondary solvent to get an absolute, no if ands or buts about it. 
second 
you do not make bho there for you have no idea what the actually process is and the variables that can alter you oil completely, i have read alot of the write ups in high times and on other sites and non of them have the info that alot of us have already done time and time and time again and posted these results and then someone else will do it with the same results, what i am getting at is bho is still very much a mystery, but i believe a lot of info involving bho and its variables and fickleness are on this site. 
third 
if you noticed he shut the fuck up
forth 
really algore as a screen name couldnt come up with a better one then the inventor of the internet

no you dont need to polish it to make cracking hard shatter, and also polished stuff can wax up too, we have had a couple of people on here do it, i bet you thought the reason it waxed up was because of the plant waxes in the bho.... thats because you have been "read up on the process" and not actually doing the process. i would bet money the so called absolute you get isnt an absolute

do some reading in the link posted above that i told him to read so you can catch up to the rest of the class too


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## AlGore (Oct 11, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> *slaps face hard*
> ill start off by addressing the topic, you still need a secondary solvent to get an absolute, no if ands or buts about it.
> second
> you do not make bho there for you have no idea what the actually process is and the variables that can alter you oil completely, i have read alot of the write ups in high times and on other sites and non of them have the info that alot of us have already done time and time and time again and posted these results and then someone else will do it with the same results, what i am getting at is bho is still very much a mystery, but i believe a lot of info involving bho and its variables and fickleness are on this site.
> ...


Lol wow, angry much? The fact that you go on a tie raid and feel the need to personally attack me only shows that you find some validity to my post.

The stuff I get is from top notch dependencies that get it from well known concentrate producers that use professional lab environments and processes. I don't buy the bull-shit "wax" or "taffy" or even the "de-waxed","trim", or "full plant" shatter. I get the "Flower" shatter and it is like glass even on hot days. 

Looking past the fact that you've highjacked what might have been an informative thread for people with your nonsense net rage, it is, whether you and your amateur BHO producing friends want to admit it, if-fact possible to produce a pure product(80%+) without winterizing.


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## Twitch (Oct 11, 2013)

AlGore said:


> if-fact possible to produce a pure product(80%+) without winterizing.


never said you couldn't son, you must be hearin things boy i never said, i say i never said that... in fact i have other post where i say thats about what you get with bho https://www.rollitup.org/concentrates-extracts/735923-ok-so-whats-big-dealz.html look at post number 9 dick 



i am a dick and i find no validity to your post whats so ever, i assure you this thread has been covered more times then i can count in the short time that i have been an active member here. if i was really hi-jacking it i assure you some one would be in here chewing my ass out. 

and how do you know your getting stuff that was made with flower? did the guy that you where giving the money to tell you that it was all that and a bag of potato chips? or did you sit there for 12 hours and watch them make it?


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## Twitch (Oct 11, 2013)

AlGore said:


> The stuff I get is from top notch dependencies that get it from well known concentrate producers that use professional lab environments and processes. I don't buy the bull-shit "wax" or "taffy" or even the "de-waxed","trim", or "full plant" shatter. I get the "Flower" shatter and it is like glass even on hot days.


ignorance is bliss 
this thread was buried 2 months deep in this mess can it stay there this time?


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## Twitch (Oct 11, 2013)

and i choose to attack you personally based on personal preference and belief that al gore is a lunatic


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## Guzias1 (Oct 11, 2013)

texas!


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## qwizoking (Oct 12, 2013)

Just thought I would say cause that reminded me....I got a whole collection of tx quarters, I won't spend em...........cause Texas is da shit!!!!




Oh and I agree with twitch....(I think, only read this page)


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## AlGore (Oct 12, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> never said you couldn't son, you must be hearin things boy i never said, i say i never said that... in fact i have other post where i say thats about what you get with bho https://www.rollitup.org/concentrates-extracts/735923-ok-so-whats-big-dealz.html look at post number 9 dick
> View attachment 2854610
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, lol. How old are you? Just because you talk mad shit doesn't mean you know what the fuck your talking about. You are an amateur, plane and simple. Grow up and get on medicinal and smoke some real shit before you come at me again like a fucking 12 year old.

Also, I know my shit is legit because they've been making it here for years and years. There is nothing new or mystic to BHO as you suggest. I go to the most well respected dispensaries in the state, and they all get their concentrates from the same hand full of labs. Check out Colorado Concentrates, Stay Concentrated, Top Shelf Extracts. Also, My fav dispensaries are Kind Love and The Farm, if you wanna look them up too. 

None of this changes the fact that you are wrong... You said to get pure bho you have to winterize, and you fucking don't. Well maybe you do as you don't know how to extract or purge properly, I bet your shit crackles, lol.

PS> I happened to put this up the other day. Not that I feel the need to prove anything to you but I just know your gonna talk more shit so here it is... My first 30 days worth of Medicine in CO.... https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.465595780221575.1073741828.100003134728957&type=1&l=af326ef295


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## AlGore (Oct 12, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> ignorance is bliss
> this thread was buried 2 months deep in this mess can it stay there this time?


Actually, this thread gets tons of Google hits, that's how I found it.

And I'm sure it is... tell us more about your bliss please...


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## qwizoking (Oct 12, 2013)

It actually does doesn't it....most of the answers (including my own) were pretty half assed lol.....I wonder why it gets so many views


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## Twitch (Oct 12, 2013)

qwizoking said:


> It actually does doesn't it....most of the answers (including my own) were pretty half assed lol.....I wonder why it gets so many views


really where do you see the views?

out of all of our threads to get hits on google it has to be a shitty one lol, this thread didnt even start in the right direction and i am actually not to blame this time


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## qwizoking (Oct 12, 2013)

It has 66,692.....click on concentrates and extracts, on the right it has replies/views and the last post of that thread...for reference the iso extractions by Oakley thread with 43 pages only has 45,806 views


Though they are notoriously inaccurate. Most new threads always show in the low 100's despite views being much lower....Sunni has commented on it.. in fact mods can see who exactly has viewed each thread and accurate views...I made a request that we see this as well...it was denied for acceptable reasons however


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## Twitch (Oct 12, 2013)

AlGore said:


> Wow, lol. How old are you? Just because you talk mad shit doesn't mean you know what the fuck your talking about. You are an amateur, plane and simple. Grow up and get on medicinal and smoke some real shit before you come at me again like a fucking 12 year old.
> 
> Also, I know my shit is legit because they've been making it here for years and years. There is nothing new or mystic to BHO as you suggest. I go to the most well respected dispensaries in the state, and they all get their concentrates from the same hand full of labs. Check out Colorado Concentrates, Stay Concentrated, Top Shelf Extracts. Also, My fav dispensaries are Kind Love and The Farm, if you wanna look them up too.
> 
> None of this changes the fact that you are wrong... You said to get pure bho you have to winterize, and you fucking don't. Well maybe you do as you don't know how to extract or purge properly, I bet your shit crackles, lol.


why do you take a look through the concentrate section on this forum, and you will see i am no amateur...
according to some dude named Webster

an amateur is *a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. *
a professional is* a person engaged in a specified activity as one&#8217;s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.


*


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## Twitch (Oct 12, 2013)

qwizoking said:


> It has 66,692.....click on concentrates and extracts, on the right it has replies/views and the last post of that thread...for reference the iso extractions by Oakley thread with 43 pages only has 45,000 views


holy shit.


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## AlGore (Oct 12, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> why do you take a look through the concentrate section on this forum, and you will see i am no amateur...
> according to some dude named Webster
> 
> an amateur is *a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. *
> ...


Oh so you make your shit in a lab env with a state license to produce cannabis concentrates? and not your house out of bullshit trim? In that case I stand corrected.


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 12, 2013)

I am* not* taking sides here...

But, Top Shelf Extracts produces some of the state's finest concentrates.
Along with Stay Concentrated, and Native Roots.

Kind Love is one of the more notable MMJC's in the state, along with The Clinic and River Rock.

There are tons of concentrate vendors here in Co. but only a small portion are reputable, in which Mr.Gore did nail.

I still love ya Twitch, and he is by no means an amateur Mr.Gore..he makes some damn fine errrllz my friend..
There..

Now, y'all can get along..
Maybe?...lol


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## vacpurge (Oct 12, 2013)

wait, whats the argument here?

because ive produced perfect glass shatter with JUST butane before. see through, no bubbles, and shatter even on hot days, no sizzle on the nail. no everclear used.... it was harsh though still as it wasnt winterized. but def a nice chunk of glass.


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 12, 2013)

And to add..

I do agree with my bro Twitch in the regard that one can research and read about BHO until you are straight blue in the face...

However, until you have blasted many o strains, many o times, differing methodologies, differing environments...

Sooooo many variables will produce numerous results even with controlling said variables.
You wouldn't believe how many times I've ran Skywalker OG from the same dispensary, same genetics , same tube, same temps...

Different results....

Ughh... Crazy.

It's like..uh..fuck..seriously!?!?
This only comes with first hand experience, I've ran probably over 200 tubes or more..

And I feel like I need waaayy more hands on experience to feel like I truly grasp the variable variables ...lol

Happily stoned,
SDA


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## Twitch (Oct 12, 2013)

thank you gentlemen


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 12, 2013)

My pleasure Twitch...

You happened to be one of the more notable BHO producers in regard to how quickly you picked up the trade.

Believe me when I say I frequent many different forums and there are plenty of people that have been blasting for years and have not quite gotten the consistency aspect down...

As in many times, people will produce BHO, on an inconsistent level, once in a while they pull off a beautiful batch of oil, as displayed in Twitch's avatar. But they try again to replicate with poor results.

Making BHO is an art form with scientific aspects that weigh heavily on the final result, without repetition...Each run is like rolling the dice..

From high up in the clouds o' vapor..
SDA


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## AlGore (Oct 12, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> thank you gentlemen


I'd like to point out something I just found on a very pro thread right here on this forum.... https://www.rollitup.org/medicating/692271-vapor-volumes-vlad-new-updated.html



> *The Myth of Winterizing
> I cant believe I have to explain this, but a lot of folks have been popping up promoting this winterizing process, and its something that just doesnt make sense if youre using pure butane, but it starts to become clear if youre using impure butane. Let me make this very clear: Taking BHO and dissolving it in ETO95% or ISO99% and freezing the solution, then filtering said solution with filter paper before evaping again does not remove butane or make the extract purer or remove any waxes. The waxes and plant oils that are dissolved by butane dissolve even better in cold iso. Moreover, you've just added a liquid solvent into your oil, and it will now need to be purged and cured even longer than originally with just the butane to remove the stubborn alcohol solvent from your oil.
> But I tried the winterizing process and got a ton of waxy residue after filtering the hash oil tincture, surely this means its removing heavy plant waxes? you may be asking. I would like to present the following info if that is the case: I've performed the winterization on extracts I have made with pure iso-butane, and gotten zero particulate filtered out (no waxes etc). I have also winterized friends oils that were made with the same herb but with impure n-butane mixes that didnt pass the clean plate test (Vector, you scumbags I'm looking at you), and gotten a large quantity of wax left in the paper. The reason? Shitty brands like Vector 5x have heavy industrial oils and lubricants for your lighter in with the butane (10g per 12oz gas), which isnt pure isobutane but a mix of hexane, n-butane, and similar, which may dissolve heavier waxes than pure isobutane does. So depending upon your butane source, you could be using a less selective gas solvent mix that (if it isnt Colibri) likely has some heavy industrial oils in it that would definitely be filtered by winterizing.
> Please note that Winterizing is not necessary when using pure butane, and it doesnt pull out all the impurities from an extract that was made with impure butane.*


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## AlGore (Oct 12, 2013)

The point(and the argument) is that he comes in here trashing people and throwing down the gauntlet like he is the BHO master and insists that to make shatter you have to winterize. When simple chemistry says you don't. You don't even have to vac purge if you control your env properly. 




Sirdabsalot462 said:


> My pleasure Twitch...
> 
> You happened to be one of the more notable BHO producers in regard to how quickly you picked up the trade.
> 
> ...


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## qwizoking (Oct 12, 2013)

Please don't talk about chemistry when you know nothing of it......

Oh and Vlad? Clueless bro(seriously though, don't listen to him on anything regarding chemistry)....that is a bunch of bullshit


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## qwizoking (Oct 12, 2013)

But no winterization is not necessary for shatter....


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## WarMachine (Oct 12, 2013)

qwizoking said:


> But no winterization is not necessary for shatter....


I second this notion.


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## Twitch (Oct 12, 2013)

AlGore said:


> I'd like to point out something I just found on a very pro thread right here on this forum.... https://www.rollitup.org/medicating/692271-vapor-volumes-vlad-new-updated.html


i would like to point out that there are at least 5 guys i know for a FACT that have done a winterizing and have actually seen the waxes separate and have collected and been able to weight the collected stuff out of the filter...... 

and yea poor threads pop up like this one and then they get buried 2 months back and some ass hole wants to share his 2 cents before checking the date on a thread and bam! poor thread back....

now it is no longer a poor thread, it is now amusement


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 13, 2013)

Whoa...hey wha?.
Vlad's composition isn't* complete* bullshit.

I disagree with views on winterization, yup.
But the remaining parts of his writing are fairly accurate.

Isomerization is the real deal and he nailed the composition on the isomerization and isolation of phyto-cannabinoids.

And..how many people have the balls to post a write-up like that.?
Goes against many of the things we ALL thought we are doing right.

We can't dismiss the Vapor Volumes completely because of one opinion...
* EDIT* _ This post is not aimed at anyone in particular, just my opinion.

I don't want no trouble._

Lol..


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

Sirdabsalot462 said:


> Whoa...hey wha?.
> Vlad's composition isn't* complete* bullshit.
> 
> I disagree with views on winterization, yup.
> ...



i do not know vlad, was only commenting on the quote our new friend found

edit read through it couple of things i dont agree on but save that for another time


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

I dismiss it completely because everything having to do with chemistry is inaccurate....yes nearly EVERYTHING..I've gotten into it with him before and have read nearly everyone of his posts back to the first..I'm not the only one that feels this way, and I highly respect the knowledge of cannabineer and other people that have confronted him......he night have decent knowledge on smoking devices as I think that's what his thread is about...but everything he says involving chemistry is complete bullshit and I stand by that statement......

if you disagree I would be more than happy to rip him apart yet again




(Sorry Sunni and everyone else, I try to refrain myself..I can be a bit harsh)


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 13, 2013)

I_ do love me some Qwiso king posts #!!_
Brother Q.K...

I've told you thru rep comments what I think of your posts my friend..

I'm not sure how old you are man, but you display am uncanny knowledge in this regard..

Cheers again!!
I have given away too much rep in the past 24 hours, or I'd + rep ya bud.


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 13, 2013)

Don't have to be a dick when sharing knowledge. Seems qk can't get past that confrontational dickish type response.


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Don't have to be a dick when sharing knowledge. Seems qk can't get past that confrontational dickish type response.


Whoa buddy..... QK is actually pretty reserved compared to VP and I, QK is very knowledgeable and is usually more helpful then VP and I

i am a little offended that QK got called out for being a dick and it wasnt VP or I lol

i am the one that was stirring this bucket o' shit 2 months ago and i was stirring it when mr gore posted


you sure you didnt mean to say Twitch can't get past that confrontational dickish type response??


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

i am still blown away at how many views this thread has....


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 13, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> Whoa buddy..... QK is actually pretty reserved compared to VP and I, QK is very knowledgeable and is usually more helpful then VP and I
> 
> i am a little offended that QK got called out for being a dick and it wasnt VP or I lol
> 
> ...


I dunno. I usually stay out of this section anyway. All I know is I see a bunch of dickish posts from qk. I would be more likely to respond to you about your stupid practice of blasting indoors, but I didn't want to be a dick.


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 13, 2013)

I was thinking since this happens to get so many views with peeps googling this subject.

Why not add some pictures to display each term..

* Shatter*












* Wax*











* Honeycomb Wax*






* Budder* *good example 1st*






* Budder**poor example*oxidized and contaminated with atmospheric contaminants, The first pic is the same material except a month later.






* Brittle Honey Comb**shatters at room temp*






* Oil* uh...generalized term for all the above, but usually thinner in consistency and a raw appearance, I don't have an accurate pic to depict this..

* Sap*






* Ice Wax @70u*


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

Beautiful.......


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

"I dunno. I usually stay out of this section anyway. All I know is I see a bunch of dickish posts from qk. I would be more likely to respond to you about your stupid practice of blasting indoors, but I didn't want to be a dick."



While I am a bit harsh I just don't like misinformation and the spreading of it...if you go and read my likes recieved , you know skipping the multiple/redundant ones. You would probly learn quite a bit about growing and chemistry...


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 13, 2013)

I've seen your posts. Some are accurate some are inaccurate, but they are always filled with self righteousness.


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

Which ones do you believe to be inaccurate? You seem to be the confrontational one to me


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 13, 2013)

I am confrontational so thanks for noticing. I don't have enough interest in debating it further with you, but last time I checked Texas isn't a medical state BTW.


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

Uh OK? And no tx is not unfortunately...?


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

sirdabs!!! thank you for finally since 4-16-12 posting up what the OP asked for. 

and great examples by the way


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

i cant give sirdabs guzias QK or VP +rep any more someone else do something cool....


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

All taken care of on my end.....now to just find tc..(got him and guzias! )


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I am confrontational so thanks for noticing. I don't have enough interest in debating it further with you, but last time I checked Texas isn't a medical state BTW.


yea its not and we manage to still put together grow rooms that put some of yalls grows to shame. i have put out wax that i have had people in med states beg me to send them and still paid texas prices to get it becuase the shit yall have in yall medical facilities is crap and they are in it entirely for profit. low balling people on bows of kill for 700 and 800 dollars its a disgrace if you actually ask me. i maybe on the black market aspect but at least i am not a dishonest snake in the grass like half of the dispensaries out there.

i am sure there are cool people at them but they are set up to make money dont kid yourself and also almost all of them cant grow enough in house so they have to buy it from people that walk in off the street.


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 13, 2013)

My only point is that it violates site rules:

By clicking the agree button you agree that you will be growing marijuana for medicinal use only, you also agree that you are licensed by your state to grow marijuana for medical purposes.


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

Yea well just about every mod has made it clear they aren't in a Med state....so its not really enforced


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 13, 2013)

..which leads me to my next point, which is that you can't believe anything you read on the internet.


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## qwizoking (Oct 13, 2013)

Dude what are you talking about? How are mods saying they don't live in a Med state lead you to conclude you can't believe everything on the internet?


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## Guzias1 (Oct 13, 2013)

Lol. It violates rules. Cmonnnn

Just reading vlads little info.. he sounds kind of like he thinks he knows what he is talking about. Probably had a lot of experience.. but! I feel he never properly winterized due to the way he described it.. 

Pj ain't in here nearly enough to think qwizo is the douche.. sirdabs is the biggest ass hole obviously..


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## Guzias1 (Oct 13, 2013)

Well, rep don't work for me either. Nice pics sir dabs


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## adam soza (Oct 13, 2013)

Like the pics dabs!


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 13, 2013)

* You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Guzias1 again. *

Lmao...haha!
<] :]

Guzias Style...like the the Wu-Tang sword-style..hehe


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 13, 2013)

Obviously...I_* AM*_ the the biggest asshole-leo on the web!!
:] <:]

Thank everybody for the kind words...

I don't want no trouble..


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> My only point is that it violates site rules


you do realize that if everyone followed the rules there would be no medical marijuana......


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 13, 2013)

Ahhh well played Master Splinter!! 
Getting on that Confuscious level..

Whataaah ..:]


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## PJ Diaz (Oct 13, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> you do realize that if everyone followed the rules there would be no medical marijuana......


Thank you for helping me make my next point which is how nonuniformly the rules are enforced so what's the point in having rules at all?


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Oct 13, 2013)

Dr..Otto counters...

Hi-ya!!


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## Twitch (Oct 13, 2013)

i wasn't complaining about the rule enforcement on this site, you were.

talk to sunni or racerboy, i do not have the power to enforce rules


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## adam soza (Oct 15, 2013)

So what you are saying is that if I'm not in a medical state I can't post here? Get the fuck outta here...


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## vanillaking (Nov 7, 2013)

gioua said:


> it's all thc man... some here are "more sensitive" to certain methods but in the end it's all thc. diffs are methods made to make the end product. some like no chemicals to be use and will use dry ice or water/ice some like bho or iso or goats milk made on a full moon with only a 4 year old female goat who eats fresh oats made from a organic farm... but honestly after using and trying all the methods.. it's all going to be as good as the original product just in a condensed form...
> 
> 
> me I like the goats milk method!


 The first sentence was good, then you kept running your mouth and all credibility went out the window.


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## JosHendi (Dec 6, 2013)

Come on guys there are 7 pages of bitching and talking shit. Please goto a different site if you just wanna talk shit, some people are trying to use the site for good... 
Anyways...
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/bho-extraction/


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## qwizoking (Dec 6, 2013)

Well see this thread was posted at night...meaning it stayed up in the new threads box at the top of riu forum, for a good while, as many threads aren't put up that late

So because of this..non c&e folk come in here posting nonsense...

Now what kind of people are awake that late?......
I have a job.. I work 6am-3 mon-fri ...I go to bed about 10pm central time


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## qwizoking (Dec 6, 2013)

Lmao... I just reread this thread
We should get a mod to change the title...maybe it will stop getting so many views


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## Sirdabsalot462 (Dec 6, 2013)

Hashhaha...

Thanks for bringing this thread back up, and thanks to QK to remind me to re-read...

Good times..fuck..I'm lazy...lol


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## LemmeConcentrate420 (Dec 15, 2013)

AlGore said:


> Lol wow, angry much? The fact that you go on a tie raid and feel the need to personally attack me only shows that you find some validity to my post.
> 
> The stuff I get is from top notch dependencies that get it from well known concentrate producers that use professional lab environments and processes. I don't buy the bull-shit "wax" or "taffy" or even the "de-waxed","trim", or "full plant" shatter. I get the "Flower" shatter and it is like glass even on hot days.
> 
> Looking past the fact that you've highjacked what might have been an informative thread for people with your nonsense net rage, it is, whether you and your amateur BHO producing friends want to admit it, if-fact possible to produce a pure product(80%+) without winterizing.


THANK YOU! 
That's all I have to say.


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## LemmeConcentrate420 (Dec 15, 2013)

This thread has literally been one of the most entertaining things I've had the pleasure to read. Thank you all, and I mean that sincerely.


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## LemmeConcentrate420 (Dec 15, 2013)

Twitch. said:


> yea its not and we manage to still put together grow rooms that put some of yalls grows to shame. i have put out wax that i have had people in med states beg me to send them and still paid texas prices to get it becuase the shit yall have in yall medical facilities is crap and they are in it entirely for profit. low balling people on bows of kill for 700 and 800 dollars its a disgrace if you actually ask me. i maybe on the black market aspect but at least i am not a dishonest snake in the grass like half of the dispensaries out there.
> 
> i am sure there are cool people at them but they are set up to make money dont kid yourself and also almost all of them cant grow enough in house so they have to buy it from people that walk in off the street.


I don't think I've ever agreed so strongly about ANYTHING as much as I do this, as a fellow Texan I thank you Twitch.

Sorry about the run on sentence hahaha


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## Twitch (Dec 15, 2013)

lol.......


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## Twitch (Dec 15, 2013)

i forgot how entertaining this thread was


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## avitas (May 13, 2014)

this is fucking pathetic. every time i try to research these lesser known facts about weed and concentrates, the forums invariably turn towards arguments with one another. i just want to know the EXACT differences between BHO and WAX. i clicked through 4 pages of idiots taking shots at each other. 

Both of your products apparently suck terribly… 

Why? because they don't even get you medicated enough to avoid simple keyboard rage.


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## qwizoking (May 13, 2014)

lol...
wax is bho succumbed to nucleation and cavitation


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## Sirdabsalot462 (May 14, 2014)

avitas said:


> this is fucking pathetic. every time i try to research these lesser known facts about weed and concentrates, the forums invariably turn towards arguments with one another. i just want to know the EXACT differences between BHO and WAX. i clicked through 4 pages of idiots taking shots at each other.
> 
> Both of your products apparently suck terribly…
> 
> Why? because they don't even get you medicated enough to avoid simple keyboard rage.


Not your fault, but if you would go past the first 4 pages....

I think I nailed it..

Do you need footnotes?
*Not being sarcastic* 

I think this was on page 5..


Sirdabsalot462 said:


> I was thinking since this happens to get so many views with peeps googling this subject.
> 
> Why not add some pictures to display each term..
> 
> ...


If you would like BRIEF explanation on how each is made and what differentiates one from the other, I'd be happy to do so.

But, I feel like you called us pathetic?

So maybe I will, maybe I won't.


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## Twitch (May 14, 2014)

lmao......
whats funny is the amount of hits this page gets.


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## lio lacidem (May 14, 2014)

But i still dont know the answer lol !


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## Bublonichronic (May 14, 2014)

I'll nutshell it for ya, the difference is consistency and the customers willingness to pay more for one consistency over the other...


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## Thundercat (May 14, 2014)

If you don't know the answer at this point you aren't paying any attention..... This thread is old and long, and has alot of conflict in it, but the OP has been answered correctly multiple times. 

The answer is very simple the various names for the different concentrates are basically just descriptions of their texture. There are different ways to get these textures, and there are many lovely different concentrates. But just like the pictures that Sir dabs posted so nicely show very well. Its all just various forms/textures. 

Wax- drier crumblier texture when broken up
shatter- is a solid at room temp and will shatter when tapped or flexed
budder- has a smoother thick texture which can vary greatly but is often similar to peanut butter
oil- this is a more general term used for everything, but may also refer to a more fluid, oily textured concentrate
taffy- will stretch when pulled slowly but snaps when pulled quickly
beach sand- has a powdery sandy texture

I don't know if I forgot any but Hope that helps.


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## lio lacidem (May 14, 2014)

Sometimes sarcasm is lost when typing. ..... lol thanks for filling me in tho


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## qwizoking (May 14, 2014)

especially when it's particularly dry


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## Bublonichronic (May 14, 2014)

I'm sure there are people still confused, post wasn't ment for you...


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## Twitch (May 15, 2014)

there shouldn't have been any questions after Sir Dabs post, but alas the human race never ceases to amaze me.


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## JointOperation (May 15, 2014)

to be able to call a shatter a SHATTER.. what temps should a shatter be able to handle and still be a solid product?


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## JointOperation (May 15, 2014)

Twitch. said:


> yea its not and we manage to still put together grow rooms that put some of yalls grows to shame. i have put out wax that i have had people in med states beg me to send them and still paid texas prices to get it becuase the shit yall have in yall medical facilities is crap and they are in it entirely for profit. low balling people on bows of kill for 700 and 800 dollars its a disgrace if you actually ask me. i maybe on the black market aspect but at least i am not a dishonest snake in the grass like half of the dispensaries out there.
> 
> i am sure there are cool people at them but they are set up to make money dont kid yourself and also almost all of them cant grow enough in house so they have to buy it from people that walk in off the street.



thats the shitty thing.. is anyone who opens a dispensary isnt in it for the community.. ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY MAN.. i know more respectable drug dealers then i do dispensary owners.. that should tell u alot..


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## Thundercat (May 15, 2014)

I would say at the very minimum room temp, so about 75 degrees. I've had stuff that would melt some if I took it outside when it was 90 out, and i've had some that stayed hard even at those temps.


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## Twitch (May 15, 2014)

JointOperation said:


> thats the shitty thing.. is anyone who opens a dispensary isnt in it for the community.. ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY MAN.. i know more respectable drug dealers then i do dispensary owners.. that should tell u alot..


I wont lie I want to make money, but i wont do it by screwing people over or selling an inferior product when i can obtain better.


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## JointOperation (May 15, 2014)

everyone wants to make money.. but Quality will always make money.. and reputation is key in this business and almost EVERY BUSINESS out there.


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## JointOperation (May 24, 2014)

dowork123 said:


> Why is everyone saying you have to winterize bho to turn it to shatter....just blow your oil, be gentle with it as the initial tane purges off and the vac purge that bitch on a low constant heat. It will shatter as long as your material is pure, it isn't overheated, it isn't whipped and it's fully vac purged. Heat and lack of purge keep my oils less stable in my experience.


for an absolute shatter.. u winterize.. losing the terpenes u lose in winterizing.. and gettin rid of the waxes can really help to make a STABLE SHATTER.. even in your hand.. with heat is still solid.. and i mean its hard as a rock glass.. remember terpenes cause a runnier product.. so while winterizing your losin some terps. which helps it become more solid.. same with gettin rid of the waxs an shit. and when u smoke a winterized shatter thats rock hard.. its soo smooth .. no coughfest.. its nice.. but i rather use a few dishes and not winterize a smaller batch of purer oil. to save the terpenes .

thats what ive found out.. ive made a sappy taffy hard shatter.. but once i held it in my pocket or hand it turned to pull and snap taffy .. and after i winterized this batch.. its ROCK HARD. so hard u can pulverize it into a powder..


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## canbethewicked (Mar 14, 2016)

its all about vacuuming purging your product and the temps your using, I make rock hard shatter amber glass so ..as JOINT OPERATION said WINTERIZE, my shatter looks like amber glass rock hard, u can crush it into little splinters.


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## Captain Plank-Eye (Mar 15, 2016)

Point the end of your bho pipe, or your jar into a glass dish, put all of the butane mixed with cannabis in this dish. make sure theres not shit floating in it and that you did a good clean job.

-disclaimer-
the following will probably ruffle your feathers a bit if you like to be the one who knows the best wisdom


Leave it the hell alone for a week. dont do it in a cup or a shot glass, do it in a glass pan and make sure it has the maximum surface area possible.

dont argue with me just blow your work in the glass pan and leave it alone for a week, send a picture of the results and the inappropriate reasoning you used to conclude that the shatter in your pan isnt shatter


you guys that know like to keep secrets and you guys that dont know like to chase people who deceive you


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## Captain Plank-Eye (Mar 17, 2016)




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