# Creationists Are Dumb.



## MexicanWarlord420 (Nov 18, 2010)

Sorry, but I had to say it. I don't mean creationists are dumb because they possess close to the same intelligence as the average atheist, although I would argue atheists are intellectually superior because we employ our critical thinking and analytical skills to see through the bullshit put forth by man.(Most religions, Santa Clause, the Bible, and other works of fiction come to mind) That's why they're dumb.

I admit that evolution is still rather "new" and people are uneasy about accepting a scientific fact that would conflict with their beliefs. But the successful brainwashing and indoctrination of youth has people believing that the earth was made 6,000 years ago, man coexisted with dinosaurs, and two of every animal were on a boat.. and not to mention Adam and Eve. That's some major incest going on. 

Ok so I know there's going to be some butthurt about me calling creationists stupid because its their right to have an imaginary friend who talks to them and blah blah blah, but when you fuckers start pulling your shit again in public schools, this time trying put creationism in the classroom "teach the controversy". Fuck that shit. Evolution is science that should be taught in schools. Creationism is just a delusional fantasy from an old book with NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE TO RELY ON. Why should our educational system be responsible for poisoning the minds of our youth? Isn't that the parent's job?


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## jesus of Cannabis (Nov 18, 2010)

Hitler believed in the same theory you do.


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## Serapis (Nov 18, 2010)

What Scientific fact are you refering to that refutes creationism? I didn't see any facts in your diatribe....


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## MexicanWarlord420 (Nov 18, 2010)

jesus of Cannabis said:


> Hitler believed in the same theory you do.


Hitler was also a Catholic who believed in the same Jesus you do.


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## MexicanWarlord420 (Nov 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> What Scientific fact are you refering to that refutes creationism? I didn't see any facts in your diatribe....


Evolution 10 characters


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## Balzac89 (Nov 18, 2010)

Can you really doubt evolution?


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## april (Nov 18, 2010)

I had a teacher that was bale to show me the links between Jesus- science and religion, I am catholic but never went to church . 
Most miracles such as making the blind see, bug swarms, splitting the sea, were not magic or miracles but a person using his power, which was knowledge. 
He made the blind see because he sucked the sand from their eyes, deserts have blowing sand. 
The sea was not split, the salt content was high enough they could walk on in. 
Bug swarms are natures way of keeeping the balance. 
Religon can be seen in many ways, just depends what your looking for, faith, proof or something else...
I like having both. Some things can be explained, others don't need to be because of what they represent. jmo


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## mindphuk (Nov 18, 2010)

jesus of Cannabis said:


> Hitler believed in the same theory you do.


 One of the quickest applications of Godwin's Law I have seen on the net. 

He also believed in germ theory, that microorganisms cause disease. Should we dismiss that theory too because Hitler believed it?


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## Balzac89 (Nov 18, 2010)

The Catholic Church believes the same thing you do and they killed many more people than Hitler ever did.


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## Balzac89 (Nov 18, 2010)

* 
*


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## crackerboy (Nov 18, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpeOD593lCc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Csop4ROeNg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnH1LpauHyE&feature=related


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## crackerboy (Nov 18, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g&feature=related


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## mr2shim (Nov 19, 2010)

MexicanWarlord420 said:


> Sorry, but I had to say it. I don't mean creationists are dumb because they possess close to the same intelligence as the average atheist, although I would argue atheists are intellectually superior because we employ our critical thinking and analytical skills to see through the bullshit put forth by man.(Most religions, Santa Clause, the Bible, and other works of fiction come to mind) That's why they're dumb.
> 
> I admit that evolution is still rather "new" and people are uneasy about accepting a scientific fact that would conflict with their beliefs. But the successful brainwashing and indoctrination of youth has people believing that the earth was made 6,000 years ago, man coexisted with dinosaurs, and two of every animal were on a boat.. and not to mention Adam and Eve. That's some major incest going on.
> 
> Ok so I know there's going to be some butthurt about me calling creationists stupid because its their right to have an imaginary friend who talks to them and blah blah blah, but when you fuckers start pulling your shit again in public schools, this time trying put creationism in the classroom "teach the controversy". Fuck that shit. Evolution is science that should be taught in schools. Creationism is just a delusional fantasy from an old book with NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE TO RELY ON. Why should our educational system be responsible for poisoning the minds of our youth? Isn't that the parent's job?


The problem I see with this is that you are only singling out Christianity. That's all you're going on about. So I'm going to assume you have a problem with Christianity. Which really isn't the base of "creationism" Honestly, I could say somethings that could have your brain actually turning, but I've tried with people like you and it's completely pointless.

I will however leave you with this. I do NOT believe in religion in it's current form, yet I do believe in evolution and I do believe in a creator. 

Stop being so closed minded... You are no better than the Christians you criticize so.

Creationism at it's base can be every religion ever known to exist. It can also not. Basically Creationism is belief in an all creator, or a Prime Creator. That in essence has nothing to do with Christianity or religion. So before you go off calling creationists dumb, you should educate yourself on the difference. Even atheists are creationists. You believe in the Big Bang theory yes? Which is Universal creation, aka the universe creating itself.. aka creationism.

cliff notes, you just called yourself dumb.

Honestly OP, I've read that exact same useless "I'm atheist hear me ROAR" bullshit banter dozens of times. If it makes you feel better about yourself so be it. At least try to make some sense and learn the difference between Christianity, creationism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or whatever. The only thing I've seen you prove is how truly uneducated you are about the subject. Even though you claim to be "intellectually superior"


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## mindphuk (Nov 19, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> The problem I see with this is that you are only singling out Christianity. That's all you're going on about. So I'm going to assume you have a problem with Christianity. Which really isn't the base of "creationism" Honestly, I could say somethings that could have your brain actually turning, but I've tried with people like you and it's completely pointless.
> 
> I will however leave you with this. I do NOT believe in religion in it's current form, yet I do believe in evolution and I do believe in a creator.
> 
> ...


 The term for changing definitions in the middle of a debate is called equivocation. That is what you are doing by redefining creationism to suit your argument. Creationism, as all -isms do, has a specific meaning and that is the belief in the _special _creation, i.e. supernatural origins of biological life in the advance and complex forms that we currently see. I think it is disingenuous to attempt to turn the tables and say, "see you're a creationist too" when in fact anyone that doubts supernatural origins of life and/or the universe are not considered creationists. It is also true that a vast majority, I would speculate as high as 90% or more, of the opposition to Darwinian evolution is based in a belief in the Judeo-Christian account of Genesis. While I will agree with you that the OP's rant is useless and an attack on biblical literalists, your attack of the OP is likewise without merit.


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## poopmaster (Nov 19, 2010)

There are like 20 major religions in the world and each promises it is *the one.* So you have a 1 in 20 chance of having the right religion.


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## Leothwyn (Nov 19, 2010)

april said:


> The sea was not split, the salt content was high enough they could walk on in.


I get your point that there may be logical explanations for some myths, but that one gave me a good laugh. No offense meant... but that would have to be a damn salty ocean.


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## mr2shim (Nov 19, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> The term for changing definitions in the middle of a debate is called equivocation. That is what you are doing by redefining creationism to suit your argument. Creationism, as all -isms do, has a specific meaning and that is the belief in the _special _creation, i.e. supernatural origins of biological life in the advance and complex forms that we currently see. I think it is disingenuous to attempt to turn the tables and say, "see you're a creationist too" when in fact anyone that doubts supernatural origins of life and/or the universe are not considered creationists. It is also true that a vast majority, I would speculate as high as 90% or more, of the opposition to Darwinian evolution is based in a belief in the Judeo-Christian account of Genesis. While I will agree with you that the OP's rant is useless and an attack on biblical literalists, your attack of the OP is likewise without merit.


Even so, what does his original post have to do with creationism? He has a beef with religion(Christianity) and is pointing the finger at creationism.

*Creationism*&#8211;noun 1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.

Creationism in it's basic is a belief in a God, a prime creator or all creator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

"God" expands across numerous religions and beliefs, for him to single out Christianity shows how uneducated he really is.

What's so crazy about believing in a Prime Creator(God)? I can't see radio waves, cell phone signals, or air but I know it's there.


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## mr2shim (Nov 19, 2010)

poopmaster said:


> There are like 20 major religions in the world and each promises it is *the one.* So you have a 1 in 20 chance of having the right religion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Little more than 20.


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## sk'mo (Nov 19, 2010)

Just wanted to point out that many Christian faiths accept evolution. OP has confused fundamentalist, Protestant Christianity with all religions.


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## Tw3nti3ight (Nov 19, 2010)

Look....cannabis oil from the seeds, hash, etc, has been used for millenia....

All these other civilizations Mayans to be exact...had some knowledge that is far superior to the Jews, Romans, Greeks, etc, etc....Their calendar is pretty interesting if you actually took the time to listen and learn about some stuff....

Chon Balum, the king knows of something coming December 21, 2012...

You can't debate the fact that there are UFO's, roswell, Area 51 even!! YOu cant walk on the land otherwise you will be shot, WTF are they doing there...come on people...wake up!!!


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## Tw3nti3ight (Nov 19, 2010)

The Elite are really putting you all under a mind spell....Christmas is a joke, fuck the holiday season....

Jesus was nothing more than a Shaman healer who studied abroad...

Then these crazies decided to devise up some crazy stuff to shove down peoples throats....

Lets do dis people!!!

[video=youtube;N-LB94Kwlws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-LB94Kwlws[/video]


 Cause everybody in the hood has had it up to here! - Sublime


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## mindphuk (Nov 19, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> Even so, what does his original post have to do with creationism? He has a beef with religion(Christianity) and is pointing the finger at creationism.
> 
> *Creationism*&#8211;noun 1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.
> 
> ...


If you re-read your definition of creationism, it says much more than merely a belief in a prime creator, it specifically disavows naturalistic evolution and requires a specific type of deity, one which has perfect knowledge of past, present and future and created everything as we now see things. This of course is opposed by many major religions and philosophies including many Native American traditions that believe in a creator but not the Judeo-Christian omnipotent, omniscient kind. You again appear to be trying to soften the doctrine of creationism to fit your idea of what it means when in fact it clearly has more specific intent and it is this intent that the OP is discussing. 

It's not about being able to see something but whether or not there is sufficient evidence for it's existence. Radio transmissions and electrons and even the quantum foam can be demonstrated to exist independent of belief. There is no independent verification that a god created or started anything, all that exists is belief. If a god created everything, fine, but I prefer to side with the idea that I don't know and although uncomfortable, I believe it is the more intellectually honest position vs. invoking a creator being of which we can know nothing about.


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## mr2shim (Nov 19, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> If you re-read your definition of creationism, it says much more than merely a belief in a prime creator, it specifically disavows naturalistic evolution and requires a specific type of deity, one which has perfect knowledge of past, present and future and created everything as we now see things. This of course is opposed by many major religions and philosophies including many Native American traditions that believe in a creator but not the Judeo-Christian omnipotent, omniscient kind. You again appear to be trying to soften the doctrine of creationism to fit your idea of what it means when in fact it clearly has more specific intent and it is this intent that the OP is discussing.
> 
> It's not about being able to see something but whether or not there is sufficient evidence for it's existence. Radio transmissions and electrons and even the quantum foam can be demonstrated to exist independent of belief. There is no independent verification that a god created or started anything, all that exists is belief. If a god created everything, fine, but I prefer to side with the idea that I don't know and although uncomfortable, I believe it is the more intellectually honest position vs. invoking a creator being of which we can know nothing about.


I see nothing wrong with you saying you do not know. I do see something wrong with the OP and him stating people who are atheists are smarter than those who believe in creation. So my assumption that you're an agnostic is correct?


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## mindphuk (Nov 19, 2010)

Yes, I could consider myself an agnostic atheist, however, if I'm going to be labeled, I much prefer one that speaks to what I DO believe rather than about things I don't believe in. I consider myself a rational empiricist in that I believe the only way to actually know something about the world in which we live, we must apply the same tools that began with Socrates. Very little credit is given to human experience as it has been demonstrated how fallible our minds are as they are geared more for pattern finding and filling in blanks rather than deciphering object reality. I cannot, nor can anyone, say without a doubt in the non-existence of various supernatural and other extraordinary phenomena such as UFOs, Loch Ness Monster, ESP, ghosts and the spirit world in general, or a supreme being that has the power to create a universe, however I find the only reasonable position is to remain skeptical pending any hard (empirical) evidence. I do doubt there is a supernatural being that started everything but it doesn't matter because even if physics demonstrates that universes can develop spontaneously and the equation is eloquent and succinct, a simple mathematical construct, there still will be people that can find god in that equation but to me it just is a complicating factor that fails to actually explain anything.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 20, 2010)

Creationists - those people who believe in 6 day creation, 6,000 year old Earth, Noah's arc, ect. 

Yeah, those people are IDIOTS, no argument there.

Lmfao at the Hitler comment!


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## mr2shim (Nov 20, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Creationists - those people who believe in 6 day creation, 6,000 year old Earth, Noah's arc, ect.
> 
> Yeah, those people are IDIOTS, no argument there.
> 
> Lmfao at the Hitler comment!


I think you are the idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 20, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> I think you are the idiot.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism



Well you're entitled to your opinion 

Did you read your link?

Is someone who believes the Earth was "created" in 6 literal 24 hour periods _not_ an idiot?

Is someone who believes the Earth is only 6,000 years old _not _an idiot?

Is someone who believes two of every (I'll even be generous with this one) kind of animal could fit on a single ship built over two thousand years ago by a 600 year old man _not _an idiot?

What exactly are you disagreeing with in my previous post?

What is your definition of "idiot"? Does it mean the same thing to you as it does to me?


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## mr2shim (Nov 20, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Well you're entitled to your opinion
> 
> Did you read your link?
> 
> ...





> Creationist movements exist among peoples with various religions perspectives such as Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam


That's why I called you an idiot. You keep going on like Christianity = creationism. You clearly have a beef with Christianity, either that or you don't know anything about the other religions so therefore that's all you keep bringing up.

btw, that quote came from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism


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## mindphuk (Nov 20, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> That's why I called you an idiot. You keep going on like Christianity = creationism. You clearly have a beef with Christianity, either that or you don't know anything about the other religions so therefore that's all you keep bringing up.
> 
> btw, that quote came from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism


 You seem to be ignoring the points I made earlier that although creationism can be used to denote a wide range of beliefs, it is most often, and correctly so, identified with the Christian fundamentalist movement that attempts to deny science. From your same link:


> According to a 2001 Gallup poll,[121] about 45% of North Americans believe that "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."


This view of creationism is the one being discussed, not the general belief in a creator being that may or may not have intervened. As in many areas on the net, it is much more expedient to use generally accepted terms although they may be incomplete or only partially correct in the technical sense. The content and context of the post should make it clear that the discussion is about the combined groups of Young Earth creationist, Old Earth creationists, Gap and Progressive creationism. These views are predominantly held by the three great desert monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Trying to change the scope of the discussion by saying "Not AAALLLLL creationists believe the same thing" completely misses the point and adds unnecessary verbiage and complication to the discussion. You've made your point but is unfair to require the modifiers "religious fundamentalist" or "Young Earth" in front of every use of the word creationist when discussing this issue unless we are discussing a particular flavor of thought. The Intelligent Design term was coined to get creationism away from the religious context but at the same time gave us a nice catch-all term that avoids the complications just discussed. Would you be happier if the OP and Pad used IDer in place of creationist? If we do this, the original intent I believe would still hold.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 20, 2010)

Dude I nominate you for patience of the century award, fuck!

Sometimes it seems like some people just don't understand shit on purpose.


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## mr2shim (Nov 20, 2010)

The difference between you and mindphuk is, at least he knows how to maintain a somewhat educated conversation without going to words like "idiot"

In other words, you are the 12 year old on the playground and he's the adult at the library.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 20, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> The difference between you and mindphuk is, at least he knows how to maintain a somewhat educated conversation without going to words like "idiot"
> 
> In other words, you are the 12 year old on the playground and he's the adult at the library.


I'll gladly play Dawkins to mindphuks Harris.

Fuck creationism, creationists are still fuckin' idiots.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 23, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> I'll gladly play Dawkins to mindphuks Harris.
> 
> Fuck creationism, creationists are still fuckin' idiots.


I am an atheist, but I don't call people that believe different things than I idiots, whether they are wrong or right, they shouldn't be chastised for they're beliefs, just for the fact that they spew it all out there and try to convert people to believe in what they believe rather than just believe and live. like the Anchorage Baptist Temple here in town has a Sunday school program where they give kids giant candy bars for bringing they're friends. or going door to door being annoying, your really just as bad as them, why can't you just not believe in god and let the "idiots" just be themselves? your not winning any hearts and minds here, your just reminding everyone about the tension and hostilities differentiating views on religion can cause. the sooner we all learn to just stfu and accept each other and be happy with ourselves then the sooner images like your avatar can be wiped from this earth, and we can get to doing what we should be doing and that is expanding human presence into the cosmos.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 23, 2010)

mistaphuck said:


> I am an atheist, but I don't call people that believe different things than I idiots, whether they are wrong or right, they shouldn't be chastised for they're beliefs, just for the fact that they spew it all out there and try to convert people to believe in what they believe rather than just believe and live. like the Anchorage Baptist Temple here in town has a Sunday school program where they give kids giant candy bars for bringing they're friends. or going door to door being annoying, your really just as bad as them, why can't you just not believe in god and let the "idiots" just be themselves? your not winning any hearts and minds here, your just reminding everyone about the tension and hostilities differentiating views on religion can cause. the sooner we all learn to just stfu and accept each other and be happy with ourselves then the sooner images like your avatar can be wiped from this earth, and we can get to doing what we should be doing and that is expanding human presence into the cosmos.


Trust me, I've tried.

The frustrations don't come out unless warranted.


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## mr2shim (Nov 24, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Trust me, I've tried.
> 
> The frustrations don't come out unless warranted.


It's not your place to tell someone what they believe is wrong. If they ask for your opinion then I say give it. If you go up to random strangers and tell them they're idiots for believing what they do. I think you are the idiot and need some serious help. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think that gives the right to down someones belief because you feel you are right.

You should never let someones belief or lack of one frustrate, aggravate or upset you. That's just wasted energy because at the end of they day, they don't matter. It's your life.

mistaphuck hit it right on the head. Nothing gives you the right to tell someone what they believe is wrong and they're an idiot. When you do, you're no better than those super religious nutjobs that protest homosexual funerals and claim "God hates fags"


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## RawBudzski (Nov 24, 2010)

This may be true? but why does your thinking stop with just one.. What if Evolution is TRUE as so often proven.. and Creation can also be done. As in We may be able to Create Biological life from nothing one day..Yet we are not god.. And that doesnt say Humans were not altered in any way or Created because that can still be true, with evolution happening right along side it.. =/ both can be the Truth at the Same time. 



MexicanWarlord420 said:


> Sorry, but I had to say it. I don't mean creationists are dumb because they possess close to the same intelligence as the average atheist, although I would argue atheists are intellectually superior because we employ our critical thinking and analytical skills to see through the bullshit put forth by man.(Most religions, Santa Clause, the Bible, and other works of fiction come to mind) That's why they're dumb.
> 
> I admit that evolution is still rather "new" and people are uneasy about accepting a scientific fact that would conflict with their beliefs. But the successful brainwashing and indoctrination of youth has people believing that the earth was made 6,000 years ago, man coexisted with dinosaurs, and two of every animal were on a boat.. and not to mention Adam and Eve. That's some major incest going on.
> 
> Ok so I know there's going to be some butthurt about me calling creationists stupid because its their right to have an imaginary friend who talks to them and blah blah blah, but when you fuckers start pulling your shit again in public schools, this time trying put creationism in the classroom "teach the controversy". Fuck that shit. Evolution is science that should be taught in schools. Creationism is just a delusional fantasy from an old book with NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE TO RELY ON. Why should our educational system be responsible for poisoning the minds of our youth? Isn't that the parent's job?


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## crackerboy (Nov 24, 2010)

[video=youtube;PpeOD593lCc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpeOD593lCc[/video]


I already posted this video but it was obviously ignored. Its not just the religious that have a problem with evolution. There is a large portion of secular scientists that have problems with this theory. This guy is no ones fool. A true scientist to the core. He has no religious background. And you can't question his education or call him stupid. He has a whole series of videos that explain these problems. It's time for people to quit being fooled into thinking that all forms of evolution are fact. They are not. They are only theory. Its not fact its opinions mixed with half truths. With any half truth you can find evidence that seems to support it. But there is plenty of unanswered questions.


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## crackerboy (Nov 24, 2010)

[video=youtube;2QlyKP6cUhQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QlyKP6cUhQ&feature=related[/video]


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## 420God (Nov 24, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> It's not your place to tell someone what they believe is wrong. If they ask for your opinion then I say give it. If you go up to random strangers and tell them they're idiots for believing what they do. I think you are the idiot and need some serious help. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think that gives the right to down someones belief because you feel you are right.
> 
> You should never let someones belief or lack of one frustrate, aggravate or upset you. That's just wasted energy because at the end of they day, they don't matter. It's your life.
> 
> mistaphuck hit it right on the head. Nothing gives you the right to tell someone what they believe is wrong and they're an idiot. When you do, you're no better than those super religious nutjobs that protest homosexual funerals and claim "God hates fags"


 As much as I agree with this, some people do take religion too far and need to be stopped.

A couple near me recently let there 11 year old girl die a horrible death from diabetes and no one did anything to stop it because they were using prayer for healing.

Do you think the 11 year old wanted to die?


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## VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO (Nov 24, 2010)

mistaphuck said:


> I am an atheist, but I don't call people that believe different things than I idiots, whether they are wrong or right, they shouldn't be chastised for they're beliefs, just for the fact that they spew it all out there and try to convert people to believe in what they believe rather than just believe and live. like the Anchorage Baptist Temple here in town has a Sunday school program where they give kids giant candy bars for bringing they're friends. or going door to door being annoying, your really just as bad as them, why can't you just not believe in god and let the "idiots" just be themselves? your not winning any hearts and minds here, your just reminding everyone about the tension and hostilities differentiating views on religion can cause. the sooner we all learn to just stfu and accept each other and be happy with ourselves then the sooner images like your avatar can be wiped from this earth, and we can get to doing what we should be doing and that is expanding human presence into the cosmos.


well put, people need to stay the effe out of other people's personal beliefs and know one should be faulted for what they believe in.
even if it is a fairytale.


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## 420God (Nov 24, 2010)

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:


> well put, people need to stay the effe out of other people's personal beliefs and know one should be faulted for what they believe in.
> even if it is a fairytale.


 And what happens when those groups decide everyone should believe the same thing? WAR!!

As far as I know almost every war from the beginning of time was because of religious beliefs gone too far.


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## Nice Ol Bud (Nov 24, 2010)

Their are things on this earth that we still know nothing about.
We battle and fight on OUR land. OUR planet.
What if a UFO came and landed on North America and we went to war?
Will china defend themselves, and stay on their land?
Or will we all come together to defeat the threat placed on our land.
Will then every single religion be canceled out?
And we all are one?
Or since the UFO's landed everyone's view changes and more argueing comes.
Point is, to really be honest.. the government is bad, and their lieng to us.
Were stuck on our religions but we give no credit to the people we know nothing about.
For example, Mayans, Aztecs.. we claim to know them..
but the truth is we know nothing about them..
and we never will.
Who here has seen Water World with Kevin Costner?
if you seen that movie you will know my point of view with the mayans.
what if in the near future we lose track of time, and we find a Car Calander..
we'll try to match it up, and then say that. December 31st is the end of the world. 
We have 12 months to live, cause that is what we found.
And those picture of cars are Alien machines.
What we really can just do is all come together, and instead of the world racing to invent and discover...
We can all group up and every single person on the world makes one giant leap.
I do not hate anyone, nor do I ever want to bring negativity.
I do not believe in any religion, for I love the mayans and there art of life.
People talk of world peace..
not bringing negativty, but the complexity of the human body.. does not allow for peace..
I do not believe your version of god, but i believe theirs somethings else..
i do beleieve there could have been a jesus, and maybe their is something.
he only chose to show one human, which was jesus. and we denied his idea.
Killed him.. took his life..
but think of it..
Even the police killed jesus..
the back in the day police.. aka the government.
FUCK THE GOVERNMENT!
Their going the wrong path..
which will lead to our doom because their incharge of us..

we all need to work together like the cells work together in our body to have ONE amazing thing!
GET IT?!
Were cells in a human body, we work together, and the human body is amazing and perfect.
GET IT?!

High talk, but right talk.
Marijuana 'Could' solve our problem,
but then again marjiuana just makes our days easier 

Respect to get Respected.


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## guy incognito (Nov 24, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> What's so crazy about believing in a Prime Creator(God)? I can't see radio waves, cell phone signals, or air but I know it's there.


It's perfectly reasonable to believe in radio waves, cell phone signals, or air, because even though you can't see those things directly with your naked eye we use devices that can detect things outside of the spectrum your eyeball is limited to. There is no instrument that can detect god or any supreme creator. THAT is what is so crazy about believing in it.


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## guy incognito (Nov 24, 2010)

mistaphuck said:


> I am an atheist, but I don't call people that believe different things than I idiots, whether they are wrong or right, they shouldn't be chastised for they're beliefs, just for the fact that they spew it all out there and try to convert people to believe in what they believe rather than just believe and live. like the Anchorage Baptist Temple here in town has a Sunday school program where they give kids giant candy bars for bringing they're friends. or going door to door being annoying, your really just as bad as them, why can't you just not believe in god and let the "idiots" just be themselves? your not winning any hearts and minds here, your just reminding everyone about the tension and hostilities differentiating views on religion can cause. the sooner we all learn to just stfu and accept each other and be happy with ourselves then the sooner images like your avatar can be wiped from this earth, and we can get to doing what we should be doing and that is expanding human presence into the cosmos.


Idiot: An *idiot*, *dolt*, or *dullard* is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way. Archaically the word *mome* has also been used. The synonymous terms *moron*, *imbecile*, and *cretin* have all gained specialized meanings in modern times. An idiot is said to be *idiotic*, and to suffer from *idiocy*. A *dunce* is an idiot who is specifically incapable of learning. An idiot differs from a fool (who is unwise) and an ignoramus (who is uneducated/ an ignorant), neither of which refer to someone with low intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot

I don't believe someone should be chastised for a belief that was based on sound reasoning or on personal preference, or doesn't affect other people. Creationists don't fall into this category and should be chastised like the retards they are.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 24, 2010)

It's not your place to tell someone what they believe is wrong. 

What if that belief has detrimental affects on society?

If they ask for your opinion then I say give it. 

You know as well as I do it's never an "opinion" with any religious person. It's always "the truth". 

If you go up to random strangers and tell them they're idiots for believing what they do. I think you are the idiot and need some serious help. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think that gives the right to down someones belief because you feel you are right.

I would do the same thing with Holocaust deniers, flat Earther's, people who think Dinosaurs are dragons from the middle ages, Scientologists, etc. 

And I don't go up to random strangers and harass them for their beliefs. If a random stranger starts spouting off incorrect information as "the truth" *anywhere* I'll say something about it if I know it to be false.

Religion shouldn't be immune to criticism. 
 
You should never let someones belief or lack of one frustrate, aggravate or upset you. That's just wasted energy because at the end of they day, they don't matter. It's your life.

Yeah, I try to tell myself the same thing all the time, but the reality of it is that it does actually affect me and the way I live, or the way I'd like to live. More importantly, it affects so many other people around the world in incredibly terrible ways. 

I can't just ignore it all and sit content, no matter how much I'd like to. Even if all it is is expressing opinions on a website.
 
mistaphuck hit it right on the head. Nothing gives you the right to tell someone what they believe is wrong and they're an idiot. 

I'm sorry but that way of thinking is what got us here in the first place. I don't agree with you. How bout the millions of dead bodies the influence of organized religion has left in it's wake? 

If someone holds a belief that harms other people in any way, even if that belief is right it's our responsibility to step in and stop it. These beliefs harm people and nobody can even answer if it's right or wrong. You say let it continue because it's their belief, I say stop it because it doesn't matter, humanity is more important.

People have a right to their beliefs up until the point where they harm another individual, organized religion on this planet has gone well beyond that point.

When you do, you're no better than those super religious nutjobs that protest homosexual funerals and claim "God hates fags"

Well the way I see it is like this;

It's much better to embarrass or humiliate a person, which isn't even the intention in the first place, more like an inevitable result of the scenario that plays out, than to KILL them, wouldn't you agree?

Why should a person even feel like that anyway? I'm not really understanding that part...

For example, I believe in evolution - OK, so some religious person comes along and calls me an "idiot" for believing in it... OK, awesome! I don't feel humiliated. I'm not embarrassed... 

But with religious people - They believe in God, I tell them they're an idiot - and they feel oppressed, ostracized, insulted, ROFL!!!!!

Don't hold the goddamn belief if you don't have the brass to support it. And don't be too scared to discard retarded beliefs if someone calls you for the bullshit you believe!


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## mr2shim (Nov 24, 2010)

420God said:


> As much as I agree with this, some people do take religion too far and need to be stopped.
> 
> A couple near me recently let there 11 year old girl die a horrible death from diabetes and no one did anything to stop it because they were using prayer for healing.
> 
> Do you think the 11 year old wanted to die?


That is a very touchy subject. But I would have to side with you and say it's the family's fault for not taking her to the doctor... That's pretty fucked up. However, there are religious extremists no matter what religion you decide to hate against.


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## mr2shim (Nov 24, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> It's not your place to tell someone what they believe is wrong.
> 
> What if that belief has detrimental affects on society?
> 
> ...


Fair enough.. I honestly wouldn't go about your approach because I think it really doesn't solve anything, but that's me and you're you. I have my opinions about athiests but I wouldn't dare tell them how I felt unless they asked me. I guess I have that much respect for my fellow human. 

As far as a religious person calling you an idiot for being an atheist, It goes both ways. They shouldn't and neither should you. You are right about the whole "You know as well as I do it's never an "opinion" with any religious person. It's always "the truth"." Yea, I'm not personally like that, but I would say the vast majority are so it makes the sensible minority look bad.

I would never go around telling people what I believe is fact and all else is bullshit. That's not right. I don't think people, as human beings should do that, no matter what they choose to believe or not. That's a huge problem with society now days, everyone thinks they're right about everything. No one is willing to live in the gray, or mutually agree to disagree and leave it at that. It's always, "you're wrong I'm right" Very destructive behavior and it is one of many problems in this world today.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 24, 2010)

It's much better to embarrass or humiliate a person, which isn't even the intention in the first place, more like an inevitable result of the scenario that plays out, than to KILL them, wouldn't you agree?

why are these your only two options? that is really sad, and the reason we are where we are as a people...


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## crackerboy (Nov 24, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> It's not your place to tell someone what they believe is wrong.
> 
> What if that belief has detrimental affects on society?
> 
> ...



You are by far the biggest fanatic on here. How have I or what I believe harmed anyone. Am I out attacking people? Am I promoting murders and death. Those are acts of people using religion for there own personal gain. If they did not do it in the name of religion than they would have found some other social means to motivate people to war. Let me guess every war was based on religion. Vietnam was not a war based on religion. We did not fight the Japanese because of religion. The Korean war was not due to religion. People want to conquer other people and thats the way it has always been. Your attempt to characterize all religious people as war mongers is pathetic. You can not blame all of the worlds problems on religion. Grow up and quit blame shifting all of your life problems onto religion.


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## djruiner (Nov 24, 2010)

*moonwalks through naked...refusing to take place in this continuing multi-thread internet cock fight*


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## Nice Ol Bud (Nov 24, 2010)

djruiner said:


> *moonwalks through naked...refusing to take place in this continuing multi-thread internet cock fight*


Thats the fucking spirit.
But alot of people here are wise,
and making perfect sense.
Instead of just walking through and ignoring,
you should read the wise words of some.
As I say...SOME..
Knowledge is power mate..
no negativity..
just helping.

-Nice Ol' Bud


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## djruiner (Nov 24, 2010)

Nice Ol Bud said:


> Thats the fucking spirit.
> But alot of people here are wise,
> and making perfect sense.
> Instead of just walking through and ignoring,
> ...


just been down this road..with the same group of people..saying pretty much the same shit over and over again on numerous threads.so reading it again...not really needed.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Nov 24, 2010)

Its really sad to see some of you expend so much energy trying to denigrate others for their beliefs.
I can't think of the last time I saw a thread that said "If you don't believe in God you're an Idiot", but there seems to be a plethora of this type of negativity.
How about smoking a J & see what we have in common instead of trying to find fault in others.
Peace.


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## djruiner (Nov 24, 2010)

but i do agree with you...some very wise and intelligent people here....just wish some used that knowledge in a better way.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 24, 2010)

Fair enough.. I honestly wouldn't go about your approach because I think it really doesn't solve anything, but that's me and you're you. I have my opinions about athiests but I wouldn't dare tell them how I felt unless they asked me. I guess I have that much respect for my fellow human. 

I completely agree. The approach I've reverted to at this point doesn't solve anything. Like I said before, I don't know if you really realize how frustrating it all can be sometimes. Take for instance this thread, I'm sitting here asking questions, some are just general, some are directed at specific people, but none of them get answered, people just seem to sidestep the points I make and the questions I ask and attack the way I go about _making_ those points... I agree, I'm not the most civil person on RIU, I can be an asshole at times, just like anyone, but it's never a personal thing, ever. I'm just trying to figure out why people believe the things they do, because those beliefs shape the society we live in, and in my opinion, a lot of the time, it's for the worse. 

The questions I ask I'm looking for answers to. Try your best to answer them.

1. Does a person have a "right" to a belief that harms, or has the potential to harm, society at large?

2. Do you see anything wrong with a person believing something to be true that you know to be false?

3. How do you feel about atheists? Why?
 
As far as a religious person calling you an idiot for being an atheist, It goes both ways. They shouldn't and neither should you. 

Well, to be clear, I'm not calling a person an idiot _for being religious_. I'm calling them an idiot for believing in idiotic claims that couldn't possibly be true in the reality we occupy. Young Earth creationism, Noah's flood, the parting of the Red Sea, all that stuff, and for denying the stuff that is clearly true, like plate tectonics, astronomy, biology, chemistry, physics, etc. 

I would never go around telling people what I believe is fact and all else is bullshit. That's not right. 

Lol, neither would I, you're right. Beliefs (in this context) are opinions, facts aren't. 

why are these your only two options? that is really sad, and the reason we are where we are as a people...

Like I said, the intention isn't to embarrass or humiliate someone, it's an inevitable consequence of what happens when their core beliefs get questioned. I mentioned how I don't understand this, I gave an example too. I believe in evolution, but if someone called me an idiot for believing in it, I wouldn't at all feel embarrassed or humiliated for it, maybe for them for _not believing it_, but I feel there is sufficient evidence to support the theory of evolution to justify my belief. Is this not the same for religious people? How is my questioning of religion, which is all I ever do, a threat to another persons belief? Do you ever wonder perhaps this is why there are religious laws against things like blasphemy and apostasy - similar to today's gangs "blood in blood out" stance on leaving a gang. 

You are by far the biggest fanatic on here. 

How am I a fanatic? What do I worship? Explain that to me.

How have I or what I believe harmed anyone. 

I don't know. I don't know everything you might or might not believe that might or might not have harmed someone... 

If they did not do it in the name of religion than they would have found some other social means to motivate people to war. Let me guess every war was based on religion. Vietnam was not a war based on religion. We did not fight the Japanese because of religion. The Korean war was not due to religion. People want to conquer other people and thats the way it has always been. Your attempt to characterize all religious people as war mongers is pathetic. You can not blame all of the worlds problems on religion. Grow up and quit blame shifting all of your life problems onto religion.

I'm going to come back to this part later, I have a bit for you to read, but it's in a book at my exgf's house right now.


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## mindphuk (Nov 24, 2010)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> I can't think of the last time I saw a thread that said "If you don't believe in God you're an Idiot", but there seems to be a plethora of this type of negativity.


 You might not remember but they are there https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/308982-attention-atheist.html


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## Nice Ol Bud (Nov 24, 2010)

Yes..
Ill smoke a bowl to your positivness.
Excuse me,
be right back..


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Nov 24, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> You might not remember but they are there https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/308982-attention-atheist.html


Yep, I did miss that one. Probably skimmed right over it as it is variation of the same argument wherein the Op has already demonstrated his position with what amounts to a challenge. There is always much emotion on each side and almost never a positive outcome from those type of debates & I try to stay out of them.


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## Illumination (Nov 28, 2010)

Have you not noticed that the OP has not said anything other than the OP?

He is quite the confused individual as he kicked this off then in another thread he spouts off about Allah and Jihad.....

And like I told him in that one, I'll tell him again...

*MEXICAN WARLORD *

*oh go blow yourself up....lalalalalalalalala BOOM!*

Namaste'


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## MexicanWarlord420 (Nov 28, 2010)

Just trolling you Xtians bro


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## Heisenberg (Nov 29, 2010)

Although I don't agree with rudeness, I think Pads attitude is shared by a number of skeptics.

From Skeptiod


> I have concluded that it is not only useless for science to debate pseudoscience, it is actually counterproductive to science. Today I'm going to argue that no scientist should ever agree to debate a pseudoscientist about a scientific question.
> 
> The primary reason I oppose debates is that a debate, by definition, allows two competing views to be explored and compared, and arguments presented for each. The very nature of a debate presents science as if it is merely a competing opinion. When we agree to a debate, we are agreeing to drag science down to the level of a view that competes with pseudoscience. Simply by agreeing to the debate, we present the scientific method as being vulnerable to disassembly by fallacious pseudoscientific arguments. That's the message we send: Science is not fact, science is merely opinion; and it's as weak as any other.
> 
> It has been argued that scientists have a huge advantage in debates because we have the facts on our side. Well, so we do, but that's not an advantage at all. Rather, it's a limitation. The audience members who are not scientists can rarely discriminate between facts and pseudofacts. The pseudoscientist has an unlimited supply of sources and claims and validations. He can say whatever he wants.


It's also worth pointing out that, the big bang and evolution are two completely different theories that attempt to explain very different things. The question of 'what happened before the big bang' has nothing to do with life evolving.


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## IAm5toned (Nov 29, 2010)

all religions are a form of political control, that allows mankind to live somewhat in harmony with each other, to raise civilization out of the dust.... without control, there is chaos.

a man can be argued against... but what is a mans argument vs a god?

there is no argument...

how do you get the masses to toil in your fields?

you make them believe it is god will 

it's actually pretty simple when you look @ it out of context.

keep on believing, if you want to.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 29, 2010)

Sorry I forgot I said I would come back to this bit...

If they did not do it in the name of religion than they would have found some other social means to motivate people to war. Let me guess every war was based on religion. Vietnam was not a war based on religion. We did not fight the Japanese because of religion. The Korean war was not due to religion. People want to conquer other people and thats the way it has always been. Your attempt to characterize all religious people as war mongers is pathetic. You can not blame all of the worlds problems on religion. Grow up and quit blame shifting all of your life problems onto religion.

My point the whole time was that religions give people a false justification for war, not in all instances, but definitely in most. 

"besides justifying the transfer or wealth to kleptocrats, institutionalized religion brings two other important benefits to centralized societies. First, shared ideology or religion helps solve the problem of how unrelated individuals are to live together without killing each other - by providing them with a bond not based on kinship. Second, it gives people a motive, other than genetic self-interest, for sacrificing their lives on behalf of others. At the cost of a few society members who die in battle as soldiers, the whole society becomes much more effective at conquering other societies or resisting attacks." -Jared Diamond in _Guns, Germs and Steel_, p. 278

So you see, without this sense of false justification organized religion provides, people would still have war, but it's my opinion, and I believe it's supported by facts from current conflicts around the globe - that is, the more religiously occupied nations tend to be those that have the most conflict - they would have an extremely difficult time *justifying* it. You simply couldn't get people of one nation to kill people of another nation on the scale we see today without it. Think of it like getting an army of atheists to fight for a deity - impossible task.

That's how you win hearts and minds and change the way we solve problems.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Nov 29, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Sorry I forgot I said I would come back to this bit...
> 
> If they did not do it in the name of religion than they would have found some other social means to motivate people to war. Let me guess every war was based on religion. Vietnam was not a war based on religion. We did not fight the Japanese because of religion. The Korean war was not due to religion. People want to conquer other people and thats the way it has always been. Your attempt to characterize all religious people as war mongers is pathetic. You can not blame all of the worlds problems on religion. Grow up and quit blame shifting all of your life problems onto religion.
> 
> ...


Pad, I believe I understand your position but you didn't really address the specifics brought up by Crackerboy (I believe). For instance, how has religion cause the current escalation of tensions in the Korean Peninsula or as brought up earlier, Vietnam, the 1st Korean war, the 1st & 2nd world wars?
Understand, not bashing, just interested in your thoughts.
GWN


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## mindphuk (Nov 29, 2010)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Pad, I believe I understand your position but you didn't really address the specifics brought up by Crackerboy (I believe). For instance, how has religion cause the current escalation of tensions in the Korean Peninsula or as brought up earlier, Vietnam, the 1st Korean war, the 1st & 2nd world wars?
> Understand, not bashing, just interested in your thoughts.
> GWN


 Please link to the post where Pad said that all wars are caused by religion. I'm having trouble finding it and doubt that he said any such thing.


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Nov 29, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Please link to the post where Pad said that all wars are caused by religion. I'm having trouble finding it and doubt that he said any such thing.


I didn't say that, I was referring to his statement "My point the whole time was that religions give people a false justification for war, not in all instances, but definitely in most."
I assumed that the "Most" inferred most wars and I'd like to hear what connections he sees in those conflicts.
Some of these issues are pretty emotional & that is not my aim. I'm interested in a civil exchange of ideas, not looking for an E-fight.
Peace


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## Karmapuff (Nov 29, 2010)

https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/387887-my-thoughts-life.html


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## mindphuk (Nov 29, 2010)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> I didn't say that, I was referring to his statement "My point the whole time was that religions give people a false justification for war, not in all instances, but definitely in most."
> I assumed that the "Most" inferred most wars and I'd like to hear what connections he sees in those conflicts.
> Some of these issues are pretty emotional & that is not my aim. I'm interested in a civil exchange of ideas, not looking for an E-fight.
> Peace


 No fight. I seriously was looking for what he said to make you ask that. If you read anything different into my post it was not there by intention. I didn't think that sentence implied that the wars you spoke of had anything to do with religion and since crackerboy also said something about this, I thought you were referring to something earlier in this thread. 

I honestly think that he is only referring to the wars that ARE being done in the name of religion such as Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan, Congo, Iraq, Iran, Kosovo, Afghanistan, India, Kashmir, Sri Lanka, Somalia, Pakistan, Phillipines, Nigeria and Cyprus to name a few which are much more recent than the few you elected to ask about. So yes, I do think he meant most wars and I think history will show that the vast minority of wars fought are done so for purely secular reasons such as stopping the spread fascism in WWII and communism in Korea and Vietnam. Even border conflicts such as the Iraq Iran War occur because of religious undertones (fear of Shia rebellion). 

In fact, I challenge you to present more 20th century wars that are primarily secular in nature. You've listed 3 so far. I have $10 here that says I can name 5 religious wars for each one of yours.

(Am I being civil enough?  )


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Nov 29, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> (Am I being civil enough?  )


Very much so, thank you.
I don't have a semblance of an educated comment atm, I tend to be a bit lazy after dinner & a doob.
I really haven't thought about the religion/conflict connection in the past & am just looking for informed opinions.
And, hopefully we will be laughing (in relief) about the present Korean tension soon.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 29, 2010)

GreatwhiteNorth said:


> Pad, I believe I understand your position but you didn't really address the specifics brought up by Crackerboy (I believe). For instance, how has religion cause the current escalation of tensions in the Korean Peninsula or as brought up earlier, Vietnam, the 1st Korean war, the 1st & 2nd world wars?
> Understand, not bashing, just interested in your thoughts.
> GWN


 First I want to make it clear, I don't think organized religion is the cause of every war humanity has ever fought. I think it serves as a scapegoat for people to use to justify war. Every one of us realizes murder is wrong, yet we do it every single day in the name of war. 

That little excerpt from Diamonds book explained it pretty well when I first read it. 

From an atheists perspective, I believe very strongly that killing another person is wrong, I believe it's wrong while simultaneously having a lack of a belief in a God. It's not the fear of eternal damnation that is keeping me from killing other people, it's the knowledge of things like empathy, pain, successful human relationships, etc. that keep me from harming other people. I hear religious people say things like "well without believing in God there wouldn't be any point, I'd just do what I wanted without any regard to anyone else, I'd be out for myself [by proxy, family, friends, etc.]" pretty frequently, alarmingly frequent actually...

So with believers, and UTI pointed this out earlier, could have been in a different thread, they act moral out of fear, not out of the knowledge of what's actually "right and wrong". 

When it clicked in my head that without this scapegoat, there is no justification for killing thousands and often times millions of people, that was just another step on the way toward atheism. 

Religion itself is responsible for it's fair share of death and destruction throughout the ages too though. Crusades, Witch trials, etc. 

So yeah, in total, it's very clear that our world could really do without religion for a few centuries... that's actually all we might have left...


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

MexicanWarlord420 said:


> Just trolling you Xtians bro



Some more bs as I AM NOT A HYPOCHRISTIAN>..nor any religion...

And to help prove it...fuck Jesus...fuck Allah, fuck god and gods and fuck the pope....there...believe it now???

Namaste'


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

A question...why is it assumed that if one accepts a creator scenario they must be religious? All religions are false fake and self serving which in no way promotes anything but bs....but just becasue one accepts a creator they must be religious??

Namaste'


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

In all that mankind has observed never has anything or anyone produced something from nothing....since this has never been observed ever

Then how is it logical to believe that everything came from nothing?

This is a much more leaping an act of faith as we have not a shred of evidence that this is possible....yet supposed logic states that that only applies to everything even though it has never been observed to occur with anything

So given this info you are believing that everything came from nothing

Well that is just a major flaw in logic, isn't it?

Namaste'

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"


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## mindphuk (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> In all that mankind has observed never has anything or anyone produced something from nothing....since this has never been observed ever
> 
> Then how is it logical to believe that everything came from nothing?
> 
> ...


I believe the flaw in logic is yours. You are attributing things to people that have not been claimed by them. This is called a strawman argument. No one is saying that 'everything came from nothing.'


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## guy incognito (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> In all that mankind has observed never has anything or anyone produced something from nothing....since this has never been observed ever
> 
> Then how is it logical to believe that everything came from nothing?
> 
> ...


Casimir effect and virtual particles.

Also, do you have a better, more logical explanation of where everything came from? The idea of a supreme creator to explain where "everything" came from just raises even more questions.


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## mindphuk (Nov 30, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> Casimir effect and virtual particles.


However, ever virtual particles obey conservation of mass-energy. I think he is talking about something that violates conservation law. 
This, however is a creationist/ID canard. It is nonsense to talk about anything outside of the known universe as anything, let alone nothing. "What is the universe expanding into?" is a meaningless question as spacetime itself is expanding. The big bang theory states that at one point in time, the universe was extremely small, hot and dense. Nowhere is the claim made that it came from nowhere or that nothing preceded it. Our universe could merely be a bubble formed from another universe. It could have 'always' existed and only expanded due to something we don't yet know. The things is, what occurred before a few units of planck time is unknown and open to a lot of speculation but that doesn't mean that physicists are claiming that nothing created everything. 



> Also, do you have a better, more logical explanation of where everything came from? The idea of a supreme creator to explain where "everything" came from just raises even more questions.


Every time science investigates nature, it is found that even things that appear complex, when we look at their parts, the parts are simpler. Now if we imagine some sort of creator, that assumes that there is something more complicated than the thing that got created. To me that's a step backwards in explaining a philosophically satisfying model. 
- Garrett Lisi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Exce..._of_Everything​


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## guy incognito (Nov 30, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> However, ever virtual particles obey conservation of mass-energy. I think he is talking about something that violates conservation law.
> This, however is a creationist/ID canard. It is nonsense to talk about anything outside of the known universe as anything, let alone nothing. "What is the universe expanding into?" is a meaningless question as spacetime itself is expanding. The big bang theory states that at one point in time, the universe was extremely small, hot and dense. Nowhere is the claim made that it came from nowhere or that nothing preceded it. Our universe could merely be a bubble formed from another universe. It could have 'always' existed and only expanded due to something we don't yet know. The things is, what occurred before a few units of planck time is unknown and open to a lot of speculation but that doesn't mean that physicists are claiming that nothing created everything.
> 
> Every time science investigates nature, it is found that even things that appear complex, when we look at their parts, the parts are simpler. Now if we imagine some sort of creator, that assumes that there is something more complicated than the thing that got created. To me that's a step backwards in explaining a philosophically satisfying model.
> - Garrett Lisi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Exce..._of_Everything​


My point was that we don't know everything in the universe. There very well could be some reasonable explanation of where all the matter in the universe came from that doesn't violate the conservation of mass-energy as demonstrated by virtual particles popping into and out of "nothing" all the time.

And yea that was my second point too. Saying "you can't create something from NOTHING that's illogical" doesn't make the idea of creation any less illogical.


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## 420God (Nov 30, 2010)

Some things always were and some things always will be.

Searching for the beginning is like trying to find god.

It will never happen and every explanation will only and always be theory.

The idea that everything came to be 6,000 years ago is just fucking retarded.

Just my opinion.


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## guy incognito (Nov 30, 2010)

420God said:


> Some things always were and some things always will be.
> 
> *Searching for the beginning is like trying to find god.*
> 
> ...


Except the beginning actually exists and we might figure it out some day. Just because something is a theory doesn't mean it's useless. Evolution is a theory. A damn good one.


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> Except the beginning actually exists and we might figure it out some day. Just because something is a theory doesn't mean it's useless. Evolution is a theory. A damn good one.


I can see that I have been misunderstood...so FUCK GOD...but you cant just dismiss it because you dont like it...I dont like it, God that is, and I accept evolution....but as I have no proof either way it remains an option to be considered...anyway my point is made and it was only meant to do what it did....demonstrate that no explanation to an unknown can be dismissed as ludicrous and some more banter to masturbate my mind

Namaste'


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## Heisenberg (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> I can see that I have been misunderstood...so FUCK GOD...but you cant just dismiss it because you dont like it...I dont like it, God that is, and I accept evolution....but as I have no proof either way it remains an option to be considered...anyway my point is made and it was only meant to do what it did....demonstrate that no explanation to an unknown can be dismissed as ludicrous and some more banter to masturbate my mind
> 
> Namaste'


I appreciate your points. The reason god get's dismissed isn't just because we don't like it, but because it has no valid evidence, no real plausibility, and can not be falsified. At that point it becomes a waste of time, dismissible. The burden of proof falls to the party making the claim. When presented with sufficient evidence, any good scientist would have no choice but to accept creationism.

Plus don't forget good ole Occams' razor... Why entertain an explanation which is NOTHING but assumptions when evolution makes it unnecessary. It is as big of a waste of time as trying to find an alternate explanation of why my pencil falls to the ground when it rolls off my desk.


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

Thank you H...And I really admire your sig....

Take care my friends...I admire your intellects and learn much from all of you...the reason I am on this forum is to learn so again thank you all... especially Heis,, Mind, 420 and Guy

Namaste'


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> *Except the beginning actually exists[* and we might figure it out some day. Just because something is a theory doesn't mean it's useless. Evolution is a theory. A damn good one.


Helluva a statement there friend...what proof do you have that a beginning exists? That is a quite a leap... just as big as saying there's a god

And I am not saying there is a god nor do I believe in god or gods

But it seems that many hold to that human reason is supreme; or science; or intellect

And intellect is their god or reason is their god and or science

Hence there can't be anything superior to their gods, reason, intellect, and or science

Therefore the ideas of a superior being or even beings go out the window as they are the threat to the gods of intellect reason and or science

That is what I observe and this thread gives merit to my observation

That is all...have an awesome existence with whatever fits you...that's what matters

Namaste'


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## Heisenberg (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> Helluva a statement there friend...what proof do you have that a beginning exists? That is a quite a leap... just as big as saying there's a god
> 
> And I am not saying there is a god nor do I believe in god or gods
> 
> ...


This is how I see it. There is only one truth, one reality. Even if we can never be aware of it all, it still exists. Gravity would work the same way whether we understood it or not. If the planet was completely void of intellect, the laws of thermodynamics would still remain. So no matter what we may or may not believe and understand, there is always the truth; reality, which is not subject to change. 

We as humans have tools to help us see that truth. Those tools are intellect and reason among other things. Science is just a way of systematically testing reality and then applying reason to the results. The scientific method has a strict set of rules that must be followed, because rather than intellect and reason being godlike, they are quite prone to mistakes. Science recognizes and tries to correct for that. So science is a system designed to help us get to the truth while being very careful of mistakes. Once science gets a result, it tests it again and again to see if the result is replicable. Science tries it best to falsify the result, and after exhaustively getting a consistent result over and over in different ways, we then believe it. 

A relevant example of this at work, though it's on a bigger scale, is the question of the age of the universe. When geologists test material using potassium argon dating, they find the universe is about 14 billion years old. When astronomers, a completely different branch of science, look at the edge of the observable universe and calculate the distance light has had to travel to reach us, guess what number they get...14 billion. Two independent branches of science getting the same result with very different methods of testing.

It can be said that I have faith in science, but it is a very different type of faith. In fact it is the direct opposite of faith in the divine. Those who have faith in god do so despite a complete lack of evidence. Those who have faith in science do so because of consistent, replicable results.

BTW ty for the compliment


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

And thank you H...always the gentleman and scholar....Hats off to you my friend...not to mention the gift of enlightening minds with and to truth

Namaste'


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## guy incognito (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> I can see that I have been misunderstood...so FUCK GOD...but you cant just dismiss it because you dont like it...I dont like it, God that is, and I accept evolution....but as I have no proof either way it remains an option to be considered...anyway my point is made and it was only meant to do what it did....demonstrate that no explanation to an unknown can be dismissed as ludicrous and some more banter to masturbate my mind
> 
> Namaste'


I'm dismissing it for entirely different reasons than I don't like it. It doesn't make sense, nor does it solve the question at hand. In fact it raises even further questions. 

To say there is no proof either way is not entirely correct either. That's like if I invent some crazy concept that is completely unverifiable, then saying each side has an equal chance of being right because I don't have any hard evidence either way is ludicrous. 

There is a rogue band of gangster mermaids living in the pacific ocean. What evidence do I have for this? Nothing other than I believe in my heart of hearts it to be true. But what evidence AGAINST it do you have? Ahah! It must be reasonable to entertain the idea that this is right then? You have no evidence against it so it must be possible. 

If anyone believed in my gangster mermaids (which have never been seen other than this ancient book which recounts encounters with them) you would think, rightfully so, that they should be segregated from society and locked away for being BAT SHIT CRAZY.


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## Heisenberg (Nov 30, 2010)

Russell's Teapot



> If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot#cite_note-0


 - Bertrand Russell


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

Neither can I accept your beginning...but then again I am BAT SHIT CRAZY!! Guano is amazing shit...literally!

But I really do appreciate your insight....

Thanks Guy

Namaste'


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## guy incognito (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> Helluva a statement there friend...what proof do you have that a beginning exists? That is a quite a leap... just as big as saying there's a god
> 
> And I am not saying there is a god nor do I believe in god or gods
> 
> ...


Again you miss the point completely. I don't "throw out the idea of a supreme being" because that would be a threat to science. No one does. That would be as big a mistake as blindly accepting that god does exist and created everything. God could potentially be a threat to science as his powers would transcend science, logic, and all physical laws as we know them. But that's not the case. We have tested the laws of the universe as we know them, and they agree 100% of the time, NEVER a single exception. If there was an exception it's because we didn't understand how it actually worked, and we revised our theories. I am confident we will never, ever, ever defy those laws, especially the ones that have been verified countless times. 

What proof do I have that a beginning exists? Well I guess it depends on the semantics and exactly how you define it. The idea that time and space and everything in the universe has always existed doesn't make any sense to me. The same way i've been told by my parents and pastor that god always existed. He just did. Forever and for eternity. Go back in time an infinite distance, and there is god, existing as he has for an infinite length of time before that. The idea just doesn't add up.

So what happened before the big bang? I don't know, and neither do you. Does "before" the big bang even exist? Or did time itself begin at the big bang? Again, I don't know. For all practical purposes I think it's safe to assume the big bang was the beginning of our entire universe as we know it. It's useless to speculate what happened before that until we have some way to test or find evidence of something before (whatever that means in this context) the bang. If and when evidence comes up that time and/or anything existed before the big bang I will gladly accept it.


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## aTTicRaT (Nov 30, 2010)

Saying the earth was created by some spiritual being is like saying catholic priests don't touch little boys. Ok all you Catholics bash away...


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## GreatwhiteNorth (Nov 30, 2010)

aTTicRaT said:


> Saying the earth was created by some spiritual being is like saying catholic priests don't touch little boys. Ok all you Catholics bash away...


Some come to this forum for mature intellectual exchange of opinions, other to troll hate.
It's not a big stretch to see that you fall into the latter category.


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## mindphuk (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> Helluva a statement there friend...what proof do you have that a beginning exists? That is a quite a leap... just as big as saying there's a god
> 
> And I am not saying there is a god nor do I believe in god or gods
> 
> ...


 "As science advances, there seems to be less and less for God to do. It's a big universe, of course, so He, She, or It, could be profitably employed in many places. But what has clearly been happening is that evolving before our eyes has been a God of the Gaps; that is, whatever it is we cannot explain lately is attributed to God. And then after a while, we explain it, and so that's no longer God's realm." 
&#8212; Carl Sagan (The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God)

"One of the reasons for its success is that science has a built-in, error-correcting machinery at its very heart. Some may consider this an overbroad characterization, but to me every time we exercise self-criticism, every time we test our ideas against the outside world, we are doing science. When we are self-indulgent and uncritical, when we confuse hopes and facts, we slide into pseudoscience and superstition." 
&#8212; Carl Sagan (The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark)*
*


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

I loved Sagan...was shocked when he became a god believer though

You are wise and knowledgeable in the best of ways ... As are you GWN

Namaste'


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> I loved Sagan...was shocked when he became a god believer though


LOL!

Was he now..?


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## angrygranola (Nov 30, 2010)

creationism?

we humans with our meager understanding of science have been able to create all manner of strange living things. take your fresh and fruity pinapple chunk/freak expresstraintoenlightenmentwrekage. is it so far fetched to consider that perhaps something with an even better scientific understanding created man?

and where do fruit flies come from? leave a beer out, and boom fruit flies? perhaps DNA is spontaneous, perhaps life is everywhere, and manifests itself, when the conditions are right.

i think everyone already know that Christianity if fuck'd, can we move on? evolve our thinking past what previous notions of creation may have implied?


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## MrSaint (Nov 30, 2010)

This is my first time I stumble upon talks of creation in here, I don't get to check in that often. I appreciate that an open exchange of ideas and opinions exist here, but some have taken a closed and condescending approach to their presentations. I never believed in a god as a kid. I was raised Catholic, went to church, and read the good book. To this day I find the parables quite interesting, especially the story of creation. I was into mythologies and stories that explained the existence of everything else. I placed all stories learned in the same category; fiction. It just never occurred to me, after we stopped being religious, that people actually believed in what they read in the Testaments. 
For a while as a young teen I found myself in a weird position where I thought everyone around me was absolutely insane. I got older, met people who were atheist, and found out that I was atheist as well. I called myself atheist, until I realized that atheist is defined as: the theory or belief that God does not exist.
I have always had an immense passion for the sciences. I consider myself a man of science and I live my life with respect to scientific laws and theories. The best part about the sciences are the theories! It offers us something to examine, and we love to examine shit. It offers us possibility of discovery, new intelligence, and to an extent, adventure. We love that shit too!
I can agree with the agnostic perspective, that nothing can be known of a god or creator that is beyond the material world. The existence of a god is not important to science right now (although it may be argued it is important to science's existence). What is most important is understanding the world and all of its organisms and processes. 
Deists believe in a supreme being that does not intervene in life at all. Again, these things can not be examined at this stage in our intelligence. I like the god concept sometimes, and sometimes I don't.
Then there are those who believe the Ancient Astronaut Theory answers all of these questions. History, closely examined, solving the riddles of ancient texts. Subscribers to this theory are few. I love this idea because it presents a new universe of thought, but it doesn't make any of it "real" or viable. I won't argue it either way.
Then there is human experience, consciousness, and death. We know we will die and it is a very scary prospect for many. We have no idea what will happen after we die. We dream when we sleep, sometimes when we're knocked out unconscious. When we die we can assume that our dreams will kick in, but we dream because of our brain. When our brain is kept off the Oxygen long enough, blood stops flowing, brain rots and decays, then die too will those dreams. Consciousness will not exist, you will not exist. But you only know how it is to exist, you can't fathom not existing. So we may delude ourselves in order to accept this natural process of life. We will be recycled into parts that we can't see, that will not be a housing for a conscious. Or maybe your consciousness won't die, maybe somehow you will continue to exist in some unknown incomprehensible fashion. 
I've come to appreciate tradition and religions. It offers people solace, so why would I be such an a-hole to fuck this up for them? I know that religions have been exploited for use in war, genocide, and other sick acts, but it does not speak to the merits of the individual follower. The person looking for consistency and peace with his or her own life. Peace with his or her inevitable death, and the fading of his/her consciousness into the utterly unknown.

I love you guys for discussing this in an intelligent and civilized manner. And remember we all love this earth, that's something we have in common. Now back to my bubba kush meds, humans need their rest.


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## Heisenberg (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> I loved Sagan...was shocked when he became a god believer though
> 
> You are wise and knowledgeable in the best of ways ... As are you GWN
> 
> Namaste'


This is a myth that is often perpetrated by creationist. They like to say that some of the most famous atheists changed their mind on their death bed. I often hear this about Darwin himself. Truth is, Darwin and Sagan both went to the grave non-believers. 



> When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me&#8212;it still sometimes happens&#8212;and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again. Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again. I don't ever expect to be reunited with Carl.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan#cite_note-39


 - Ann Druyan


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## Heisenberg (Nov 30, 2010)

angrygranola said:


> creationism?
> 
> we humans with our meager understanding of science have been able to create all manner of strange living things.
> 
> ...


Humans understand science just fine, it is reality that we hope to better understand, through science.

It is not ridiculous to wonder if we may have been created by something. What is ridiculous is believing in an explanation without any evidence.

Fruit flies come from other flies. This simple explanation removes the need for something like spontaneous generation, which has no plausibility, and not been observed to happen. Saying something like "when the conditions are right" opens the door for special pleading. Understand that your explanation itself is a fine place to start. You observed an event and made a guess at what happened, like many before you. However when you move onto the next step, controlled testing, you find no evidence of spontaneous generation. With no support, you must abandon the explanation and start over.

This is what Darwin did. He made a guess and tested it. Turns out that he found loads of evidence which many, many others have confirmed since then. 

It's natural to wonder these things, and one of the reasons the scientific method was developed, since the human mind is fallible.


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## Illumination (Nov 30, 2010)

Heisenberg said:


> This is a myth that is often perpetrated by creationist. They like to say that some of the most famous atheists changed their mind on their death bed. I often hear this about Darwin himself. *Truth is, Darwin and Sagan both went to the grave non-believers*.
> 
> - Ann Druyan


Well thank god for that....A bit of humor... but I am glad you cleared that for me....I was bummed about it more than I realized evidentially as I blindly accepted it which is really quite not my nature

Namaste'


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## mistaphuck (Nov 30, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> "As science advances, there seems to be less and less for God to do. It's a big universe, of course, so He, She, or It, could be profitably employed in many places. But what has clearly been happening is that evolving before our eyes has been a God of the Gaps; that is, whatever it is we cannot explain lately is attributed to God. And then after a while, we explain it, and so that's no longer God's realm."
> &#8212; Carl Sagan (The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God)
> 
> "One of the reasons for its success is that science has a built-in, error-correcting machinery at its very heart. Some may consider this an overbroad characterization, but to me every time we exercise self-criticism, every time we test our ideas against the outside world, we are doing science. When we are self-indulgent and uncritical, when we confuse hopes and facts, we slide into pseudoscience and superstition."
> &#8212; Carl Sagan (The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark)



carl is my god... lol

I have seen every episode of cosmos... it never fails to just blow your mind..

through the wormhole with morgan freeman is pretty good too, like a modern cosmos, but with morgan freeman.

I didn't know that carl sagan wrote the novel "contact" and that they made that movie based off it...


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## mistaphuck (Nov 30, 2010)

Illumination said:


> Well thank god for that....A bit of humor... but I am glad you cleared that for me....I was bummed about it more than I realized evidentially as I blindly accepted it which is really quite not my nature
> 
> Namaste'


 many people asked his wife if he had converted before his death and she said no, and that it was a kinda sad thought.. that they both knew they would never see each other again..


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## Scrooge (Nov 30, 2010)

I just have to chuckle whenever intelligent folks try to engage in religious/creation/evolution discussions. THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER!!!!

There is a reason why it is called The _Theory_ of Evolution just as Creationism cannot be empirically explained. Faith plays into the Atheists beliefs as much as it does the Christian Doctrine. The Atheist has _faith_ that God doesnt exist. They cant prove God doesnt exist just as the Christian cannot prove that She does exist. All of the quotes from Carl Sagan or Isaac Asimov (science fiction writers) are about as relevant as Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

Personally, I believe that something HAD to set all of this in motion. There is a central theme in nature that could not have occurred by accident. I cant explain it in words but those who are tuned into the environment will understand  some call it Mother Earth, the Big Giant Head or whatever incorporeal entity pops into your head when you are couch-locked after burning some choice smoke. It transcends all organized religions.

As a Catholic, I always take offense to those antis that always bring up the priest molestation scandal to demonize the entire Church. There are tens of thousands of priests that have never molested children and to cast aspersions unfairly toward the entire Church and its membership is ignorant.


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## mindphuk (Nov 30, 2010)

I always get a chuckle when someone claims that people engaged in reason and skepticism somehow has faith that there is no god or gods. Maybe if you actually read the quotes you might understand how science and reason has advanced humanity and in just a few hundred years we have sped up and surpassed by a large magnitude the knowledge gained in the preceding years all of the way back to our beginnings. I have no need to disprove a god any more than I need to disprove pink unicorns. It is up to the person that proposes an idea to provide a rationale for believing. You say it's faith, I say that's fine. But there is no equivalent on my end. I propose no such faith in anything or to dismiss anything. 
Here's another quote from Sagan. Maybe this time read it so you understand a bit better. 



> "A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Scrooge (Nov 30, 2010)

mindphuk:

It's ALL speculation. You cannot disprove that God doesn't exist just as those that do believe in God can prove She does exist. There is no emperical formula that validates either _theory_. "Science and reason" have nothing to do with it. Why don't you try explaining our own beliefs instead of quoting a science fiction writer.

FAITH is defined as: a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. 

This applies equally to godless folks such as you and those that believe in a Diety.


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## mindphuk (Dec 1, 2010)

Scrooge said:


> mindphuk:
> 
> It's ALL speculation. You cannot disprove that God doesn't exist just as those that do believe in God can prove She does exist. There is no emperical formula that validates either _theory_. "Science and reason" have nothing to do with it. Why don't you try explaining our own beliefs instead of quoting a science fiction writer.
> 
> ...


Did you read a word I posted? I don't need to disprove god any more than I have to disprove Russel's teapot. I have never made an assertion that there is no god. You must have me confused with someone else. This is the whole point that you seem to be ignoring or not understanding. You cannot claim that I have faith in no god anymore than I can say the same about you and Sagan's dragon. Do you have _faith _that he doesn't have one in his garage or do you find there's no reason to even entertain such idea until someone can provide evidence? 

People claim that god interferes with mankind and causes things to defy known laws of physics. These things can be tested. Otherwise you are correct, someone that merely has faith, has no reason to prove to me or anyone else. However, as soon as someone makes a positive claim about said deity, as is claimed by creationists, we have something to go on as they are presenting evidence for the existence of their god. Is it not reasonable to reject such claims and insist that they do not become part of the science curriculum at schools? 

BTW, Carl Sagan was a real scientist that also wrote a sci-fi book. He is much more well known for his non-fiction books like the one I quoted from that gives good reasons why a rational, skeptical position and learning critical thinking skills is important for us as individuals and society and it is science class in schools where children are exposed to such ideas, often for the first time. Maybe you should read it, you might find it interesting.


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## mindphuk (Dec 1, 2010)

What are the myths about beliefs that I will discuss?


All opinions are equal.
Challenging a belief is an insult.
Something is true because I feel certain about it.
A statement is an argument.
Disagreement is an argument.
Controversial beliefs can&#8217;t be justified.
An objection to a belief proves it&#8217;s wrong.
Knowledge requires an explicit justification.
Justified beliefs have to be certain.
All beliefs are rationally acceptable.
Thank you Ethical Realism for this epistemological lesson


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## smokebomb1 (Dec 1, 2010)

*Man Is not the product of God, God is the product of man.*


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## Scrooge (Dec 1, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Did you read a word I posted? I don't need to disprove god any more than I have to disprove Russel's teapot. I have never made an assertion that there is no god. You must have me confused with someone else. This is the whole point that you seem to be ignoring or not understanding. You cannot claim that I have faith in no god anymore than I can say the same about you and Sagan's dragon. Do you have _faith _that he doesn't have one in his garage or do you find there's no reason to even entertain such idea until someone can provide evidence?





mindphuk said:


> People claim that god interferes with mankind and causes things to defy known laws of physics. These things can be tested. Otherwise you are correct, someone that merely has faith, has no reason to prove to me or anyone else. However, as soon as someone makes a positive claim about said deity, as is claimed by creationists, we have something to go on as they are presenting evidence for the existence of their god. Is it not reasonable to reject such claims and insist that they do not become part of the science curriculum at schools?
> 
> BTW, Carl Sagan was a real scientist that also wrote a sci-fi book. He is much more well known for his non-fiction books like the one I quoted from that gives good reasons why a rational, skeptical position and learning critical thinking skills is important for us as individuals and society and it is science class in schools where children are exposed to such ideas, often for the first time. Maybe you should read it, you might find it interesting.


To be honest with you &#8211; NO I didn&#8217;t read ANYTHING you posted. Frankly, what you write doesn&#8217;t amount to a Hill of Beans &#8211; just as what I write. My VERY first statement in this thread reads, &#8220;I just have to chuckle whenever intelligent folks try to engage in religious/creation/evolution discussions.&#8221; 

Your beliefs AND my beliefs cannot be proven. I watched Sagan&#8217;s _Universe_ as a kid and was enthralled.

I&#8217;m surprised that you didn&#8217;t quote Steven Hawking&#8217;s newest book, _The Grand Design_ where, arguably, the smartest man on the planet argues that &#8220;(b)ecause there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist&#8230;&#8221;

This is STILL a theory with no empirical evidence to back up his assertions.

Because I&#8217;ve never seen an actual unicorn, I don&#8217;t have enough information to say they don&#8217;t exist. That is shallow thinking.


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## Heisenberg (Dec 1, 2010)

Scrooge said:


> To be honest with you &#8211; NO I didn&#8217;t read ANYTHING you posted. Frankly, what you write doesn&#8217;t amount to a Hill of Beans &#8211; just as what I write. My VERY first statement in this thread reads, &#8220;I just have to chuckle whenever intelligent folks try to engage in religious/creation/evolution discussions.&#8221;


If you don't read and consider others posts, then you don't really qualify as being in a discussion. Most of the points you bring up are already addressed in this very thread, so obviously you are not looking for any real exchange of ideas here or else you would have responded to them instead of regurgitating. It seems your sole motivation is to tout your opinion which by your own logic is worthless.



> Why don't you try explaining our own beliefs instead of quoting a science fiction writer.


He has gone to great lengths to explain himself, which you would not be ignorant of if you read his posts. And thanks for making me chuckle with your ad hominem attack.

Small Mindedness is defined as Selfish, petty, constrained in thought, limited in scope of consideration. Who is this describing? Someone who took the time to post a reasonable response which respectfully addressed your points, or someone who dismisses others opinions without taking the time to understand them?


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## guy incognito (Dec 1, 2010)

I just read a new book called "How to Troll Internet Forums: And How to Come Off As A Hyper-douche While Doing It" by Scrooge.

I refuse to acknowledge his posts any further.


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## guy incognito (Dec 1, 2010)

I am totally envisioning this when I read scrooges posts:


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## mistaphuck (Dec 1, 2010)

Scrooge said:


> I just have to chuckle whenever intelligent folks try to engage in religious/creation/evolution discussions. THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER!!!!
> 
> There is a reason why it is called The _Theory_ of Evolution just as Creationism cannot be empirically explained. Faith plays into the Atheist&#8217;s beliefs as much as it does the Christian Doctrine. The Atheist has _faith_ that God doesn&#8217;t exist. They can&#8217;t prove God doesn&#8217;t exist just as the Christian cannot prove that She does exist. All of the quotes from Carl Sagan or Isaac Asimov (science fiction writers) are about as relevant as Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.
> 
> ...



So set aside the fact the Vatican helped Nazis escape persecution from collapsed Germany? Set aside the fact that the catholic church helps those "few" child molesters get away with they're crimes? 

I'm not trying to bash your religion, as I have been semi-debating Christianity on here and elsewhere for a bit now... but IMO Catholicism has to be the worst religion out there, I would worship the sun before I stepped foot in a catholic church.


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## mistaphuck (Dec 1, 2010)

Scrooge said:


> To be honest with you &#8211; NO I didn&#8217;t read ANYTHING you posted. Frankly, what you write doesn&#8217;t amount to a Hill of Beans &#8211; just as what I write. My VERY first statement in this thread reads, &#8220;I just have to chuckle whenever intelligent folks try to engage in religious/creation/evolution discussions.&#8221;
> 
> Your beliefs AND my beliefs cannot be proven. I watched Sagan&#8217;s _Universe_ as a kid and was enthralled.
> 
> ...



you watched something called Sagan's Universe? you cant even properly remember the title.. let alone anything sagan was trying to convey..


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