# The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering



## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2009)

_I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._

*The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*

A common mistake for growers when they reach the flowering stage is to start hitting the plants with a high P fert like a 10-50-10, continuing to use this blend exclusively, and when their plants start experiencing a deficit of N, Ca, Mg or micros as reflected by the dropping of lower leaves and chlorosis, they wonder why. Plants flower as a response to long nights, not because of fert blends high in P. A ratio of 10-60-10 is WAY too high in P. The plant will only take what it needs and compete for other elements that may be more important at the time. 

You may have heard that too much N can inhibit flowering. No question about it, exclusive use of a plant food that is rich in N such as blood meal, a 5-1-1 blend, or ammonium nitrate/sulfate may inhibit flowering especially if the phosphorous level is low, but most balanced blends have sufficient amount of P to do the job. *The question is - "how much P is enough to support a good flowering response and still retain my leaves?"*

Manufacturers/horticulturists will give you element analysis and what effect the elements have on plant growth, but remember this does not necessarily mean you will get better yields. Using a high P fert exclusively during flowering can actually work against you due to impending leaf drop. It's an abundant amount of healthy leaves going into 12/12 and maintaining their health that produces a lot of bud, not high P ferts. 

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because it is "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru the stretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especially if you're getting some yellowing in the lower leaves. Give up the cannabis paradigms and give them what they need. Go back to mild high P fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthy state of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such as Peter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best flowering blends on the market because of several factors - it is higher in nitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An added benefit of Peters blends is their use of high quality, very pure salts that will eliminate root burn if used judiciously.

Uncle Ben


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## sticky.n.green (Mar 1, 2009)

Thank you for such an interesting post for this noob at indoor growing.

I have recently switched over to flowering, and I'm having simular issues you described in you post...lower leves yellow, curling/darkening, and dying off (mostly the small ones at the bottom). The rest of the plant seems to be fine but the very tips are a bit white. I thought at first it was nute burn, but after a flush, and a ppm of 250...it is still happening. 

After reading your post I shall use you advise. Thaks for the resource, and I hope my plants can use what you've suggested.

Thanks

S.n.G


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2009)

You're most welcome. Funny as I just commented on this issue.
https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/150004-plant-moisture-stress-symptoms-solutions-14.html


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## gvega187 (Mar 1, 2009)

sounds like some interesting ideas. I love you guys who think all hydro manufacturers are out to get u. 

What common nutrient blends would you suggest? Do you have journals to show the overwhelming success you have had using these revolutinary ratios? 

who in the fuk uses 10-60-10?

thank you



Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...


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## spiked1 (Mar 14, 2009)

Great post Uncle Ben.
I've been thinking along those lines and on my current grow I've kept up the nitrogen, in smaller doses than vegging, and after 6 weeks of 12/12 my buds are much bigger and denser than usual, and the leaf integrity has remained good, although not as green as before when vegging.


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 14, 2009)

gvega187 said:


> sounds like some interesting ideas. I love you guys who think all hydro manufacturers are out to get u.
> 
> What common nutrient blends would you suggest? Do you have journals to show the overwhelming success you have had using these revolutinary ratios?
> 
> ...


have you ever contributed anything positive to this site? all i see Uncle Ben doing is trying to help people grow better herb, all i see you do is whining and complaining.


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## taffo143 (Mar 14, 2009)

gvega187 said:


> sounds like some interesting ideas. I love you guys who think all hydro manufacturers are out to get u.
> 
> What common nutrient blends would you suggest? Do you have journals to show the overwhelming success you have had using these revolutinary ratios?
> 
> ...


PERSONALY I WOULDNT USE 10 60 10 BUT I DO KNOW MANY THAT HAVE USED SOMEWERE IN THAT REGION WITH MIND BLOWING RESULTS, ALSO SEEN PEOPLE USE 20 20 20 WITH GOOD RESULTS

ALSO 5 10 5 WITH GOOD RESULTS, SO I GUESS ITS PERSONAL PREF, YE?

I PERSONALY THINK U SHOULD USE AS MUCH AS THE PLANT LETS U, IF SHES TELLIN U UR ADDING TO MUCH THEN JUST CUT BK, GIVE A GOOD FLUSH FOR A WEEK AT THE END OF FLOWER AND BAM UR DONE, I MAY BE WRONG THO LOL IM NO EXPERT, peace bro's


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## taffo143 (Mar 14, 2009)

nice post uncleben, i agree 100% with ur theory, thats why so many people ask the question, ''WHY ARE MY PLANTS LEAVES TURNING YELLOW IN WK 2-3?'' i believe its coz they switch to bloom nutes and there is a serious lack of N when its needed the most, so cool post, sumin for people to think about, i also belive that a healthy consistent plant will give better yeilds rather than loads bloom nutes, GIVE EM WHAT THEY NEED!! +REP FOR U FELLA


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> Great post Uncle Ben.
> I've been thinking along those lines and on my current grow I've kept up the nitrogen, in smaller doses than vegging, and after 6 weeks of 12/12 my buds are much bigger and denser than usual, and the leaf integrity has remained good, although not as green as before when vegging.


Good on ya! That's how it's done. Have enough N available to support green (healthy) productive leaves. I tend to err on the high side of N during flowering because I understand it's leaves that produce flowers. Why anyone would sit there and watch their lower leaves prematurely drop is beyond me. 



taffo143 said:


> nice post uncleben, i agree 100% with ur theory, thats why so many people ask the question, ''WHY ARE MY PLANTS LEAVES TURNING YELLOW IN WK 2-3?'' i believe its coz *they switch to bloom nutes and there is a serious lack of N when its needed the most*, so cool post, sumin for people to think about, i also belive that a healthy consistent plant will give better yeilds rather than loads bloom nutes, GIVE EM WHAT THEY NEED!! +REP FOR U FELLA


Yep, that's what I'm talkin' about.  When it comes to bloom foods, ya gotta "think outside of the box". (sorry, couldn't resist the corn hehe)

Happy gardening,
UB


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## the357ink (Mar 15, 2009)

imo, a healthy plant with vigor can take the vicious amounts of bloom boosters that you give them(as per feed schedule).Thats why the veg period is important. you wanna build strong roots, health, etc. to prepare it for the stressful attack of flowering.


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## Phelps (Mar 15, 2009)

Glad this has worked for u, but as u say, get off of the Cannabis paradigms. Then u try to add one of ur own saying 1.3.2 is the best. What happenned to giving the plant what it needs?
My DP BB would curl up into a ball with that much nitrogen during flowering. 
I believe u have some very good points, but my favorite was when u say to give a plant what it needs and not what people say it should need.


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## Stoney Jake (Mar 15, 2009)

I have had a lot of early yellowing in flowering on certain plants... This is a very helpful post. I am one of the people doing exactly what uncle ben is talking about. Ill try keeping them on grow nutes through the stretch this time and see.
Thanks ben


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 15, 2009)

Stoney Jake said:


> I have had a lot of early yellowing in flowering on certain plants... This is a very helpful post. I am one of the people doing exactly what uncle ben is talking about. Ill try keeping them on grow nutes through the stretch this time and see.
> Thanks ben


try a slow transition from grow to bloom nutes. i start a week before i flip the lights @ 80/20 grow/bloom, then go to 50/50, then 20/80, and around week 4-5 of flowering im usually only using bloom nutes.


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## Stoney Jake (Mar 15, 2009)

thats not a bad idea at all, thanks for the suggestion


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

Phelps said:


> Glad this has worked for u, but as u say, get off of the Cannabis paradigms. Then u try to add one of ur own saying 1.3.2 is the best.


That's not a paradigm, that is a statement, understand the difference. 



> What happenned to giving the plant what it needs?


That's a good plant food and specifically I'm talking about Peters Classic 10-30-20 which has more nitrate N than ammonical N and quite a bit more Mg than most and good amount of Fe to help combat leaf chlorosis. Obviously if the plant starts to prematurely losing lower leaves, then that's not what it needs so you switch back to a higher N food.



> My DP BB would curl up into a ball with that much nitrogen during flowering.


Quite the contrary. I've grown pot exclusively using high N foods. The leaves stay flat, cool, green and healthy....and that's what counts.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

SlikWiLL13 said:


> try a slow transition from grow to bloom nutes. i start a week before i flip the lights @ 80/20 grow/bloom, then go to 50/50, then 20/80, and around week 4-5 of flowering im usually only using bloom nutes.


Since food mixes vary so widely, the terms "bloom" and "grow" are totally meaningless in this biz. What would those particular NPK ratios/values happen to be? 

Just curious,
Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

Stoney Jake said:


> I have had a lot of early yellowing in flowering on certain plants... This is a very helpful post. I am one of the people doing exactly what uncle ben is talking about. Ill try keeping them on grow nutes through the stretch this time and see.
> Thanks ben


You're welcome. It's a matter of reading your plants.


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 15, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Since food mixes vary so widely, the terms "bloom" and "grow" are totally meaningless in this biz. What would those particular NPK ratios/values happen to be?
> 
> Just curious,
> Ben


let me go check, i dont remember off hand.


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## Stoney Jake (Mar 15, 2009)

Im using a 12-6-6 for veg and a 5-10-5 for bloom. Ill try easing them into the high P next time. It makes sense and explains a lot of my early yellowing issues


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

Stoney Jake said:


> Im using a 12-6-6 for veg and a 5-10-5 for bloom.


Excellent. You can mix and match to get where you want to go. If I had only 2 foods to choose from, for any kind of plant material, cannabis or otherwise, I'd choose a (1) 9-3-6 and a 3-9-6 from someone like Dyna-Gro or a (2) 30-10-10 and 10-30-20 from someone like Peters, or values pretty close to those. Commercially I use different foods from many types of manufacturers and buy them by the 25 and 50 lb bags. Heck, Walmart makes a great food.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

I've talked to Jack Peters and tend to go along with his approach: http://www.jacksclassic.com/blossom_booster.html

What's funny is he admitted that their amount of P in that mix is still high, that a plant really doesn't need that much P to support good flowering. The issue is whether it will cause an antagonistic effect of other elements, which the <30> doesn't seem to do.

UB


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 15, 2009)

i use a generic chem 3-part from a local hydro chain - brew n grow
but for flower i use half chem ferts and half fox farm organic with a tiny amount of roots organic HP2. theres some other additives but this is about n-p-k ratios.

base - 1.6-1.8-7.4 w/micro's
grow - 2.8-0-0
bloom - 0-7-4

big bloom - .01-.3-.7
hp2 - 0-4-0


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2009)

SlikWiLL13 said:


> i use a generic chem 3-part from a local hydro chain - brew n grow
> but for flower i use half chem ferts and half fox farm organic with a tiny amount of roots organic HP2. theres some other additives but this is about n-p-k ratios.
> 
> base - 1.6-1.8-7.4 w/micro's
> ...


Good. Adding up all your goodies, what NPK values does the plant actually "see"? That's the bottom line,

Tio


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## smppro (Mar 15, 2009)

I agree nutes are way overdone ever hear of lucas formula
http://www.drugs-forum.com/growfaq/1654.htm

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 15, 2009)

i have 4.4-1.8-7.4 starting for veg, and i work it over to 1.7-6.1-8.1 by week 4-5 of flower. i get a little more N out of my 2-0-0 cal-mag but thats basically it. im considering switching to HPK in seeks 6 & 7 instead of the HP2, i think its something like 0-4-8 compared to 0-4-0.


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## MrFishy (Mar 15, 2009)

I don't see any 10-30-10 (1-3-1) discussed. Still too high in P?

I'm getting decent buds, but am also losing almost all but the smaller, bud leaves before harvest time (on one strain only, of 3) and they are starting to shed way too early. I'm just now trying boosting the N at 1st watering after stretch. We'll see?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2009)

SlikWiLL13 said:


> i have 4.4-1.8-7.4 starting for veg....


Is that for soil or water culture?



MrFishy said:


> I don't see any 10-30-10 (1-3-1) discussed. Still too high in P?


2 issues at work like I said:

1. Too much P creates an antagonistic environment that tends to lock out other elements,

2. How much P is actually required to support good flowering and will the plant still uptake sufficient N to prevent premature leaf drop?



> I'm getting decent buds, but am also losing almost all but the smaller, bud leaves before harvest time (on one strain only, of 3) and they are *starting to shed way too early*. I'm just now trying boosting the N at 1st watering after stretch. We'll see?


I rest my case......


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 16, 2009)

hydro.... i mostly run a flood table but have been playing with DWC a little.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2009)

SlikWiLL13 said:


> hydro.... i mostly run a flood table but have been playing with DWC a little.


I've got a question that has plagued me for a long time - why is it hydro "grow" foods are usually higher in K than N?


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## smokedogg63 (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanks Uncle Ben For Your Post!! 1st Time Grower Read And Used Your Topping Post.It Worked Great For Me. Thanks


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## HomeGrown420baby (Mar 16, 2009)

im using the flora micro & bloom combined its 5-5-5 and i used bud blood the last week of veg up to the first week of flower and the numbers were hella high with no ill effects they actually blew up twice as big bud bloods something like 0-39-20..and now im about to start feeding em big buds every other watering and thats 0-15-40 combined with the flora so it's ganna be 5-20-45 with some mollases to so it might b just a tad higher than that


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 16, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've got a question that has plagued me for a long time - why is it hydro "grow" foods are usually higher in K than N?


 
i dont know...its a pretty cheap mix that performs pretty well for me. ive never had any problems with it other than a Mg deficiency with Northern Lights, but the calmag helps that.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2009)

Can anyone tell me why the K and N values are usually reversed for hydro "grow" foods? A plant should not "see" a higher K value than N for good, healthy foliage production and maintenance.

K [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"helps plants overcome drought stress; improves winter hardiness; increased disease resistance; improves the rigidity of stalks; leaches from soil; mobile in plant" as opposed to N which is a[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]bsorbed as NO3-, NH4+; responsible for rapid foliage growth and green color; easily leaches from soil, especially NO3-; mobile in plant, moving to new growth"[/FONT]
 
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html

Tio


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 17, 2009)

*just speculation* could it be because with hydroponics your constantly replacing the nutrient solution in direct contact with the roots? making the fact the N leaches easily from the soil kind of a moot point?

does that make sense? i just woke up minutes ago so it kinda makes sense to me.


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 17, 2009)

UB - do you grow hydro or soil? or both?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2009)

SlikWiLL13 said:


> UB - do you grow hydro or soil? or both?


I've done "hydro" with orchids using lava rock as the medium. Switched back to organics. I do soil for everything.


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## curious.george (Mar 18, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've got a question that has plagued me for a long time - why is it hydro "grow" foods are usually higher in K than N?


My understanding is that N is different in soil than hydro. In soil it is hard to keep the N in the soil. My dad grew corn on a farm when I was a kid and he would say he needed to add more N than P and K because the N would leave the soil on its own while the P and K would only go away if the plant ate it. So if he used 20% more P and K than the corn needed next year it would still be there and he could used 20% less P and K but would need to add 100% N each year regardless of last year.
I grow weed hydroponically and I maintain N levels that are consistent because the plant always gets fresh measured nutes. I need less N because I am not trying to compensate for lost N. The N is never more than 2 weeks old.
What do you think of this explanation? My dad is a farmer not a scientist so maybe my info is wrong? But I think the logic and info sounds good to me.

On another note: I have been reading this thread and the thing that confuses me is that in the Al. B. Faqt he says he get 20% more by using the PK boost in the 6th week of flowering. Is he compensating for a deficiency or did the PK boost make bigger buds? If it was a deficiency than why not use the PK boost the whole time? If not a deficiency than this goes against the give the plants what they need, they will only use what they need idea. An idea I like.


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 18, 2009)

curious.george said:


> On another note: I have been reading this thread and the thing that confuses me is that in the Al. B. Faqt he says he get 20% more by using the PK boost in the 6th week of flowering. Is he compensating for a deficiency or did the PK boost make bigger buds? If it was a deficiency than why not use the PK boost the whole time? If not a deficiency than this goes against the give the plants what they need, they will only use what they need idea. An idea I like.


 
my thoughts on this are that there is a large greay area in between deficiency and toxicity. you can be at the lower end of this grey area with perfectly healthy plants or be at the high end and have huge healthy plants.

i dont completely buy the "give them only what they need" thing. a person can survive off 2000 calories a day(theyre just numbers, im no dietician), thrive off 2500, and be unhealthy with 3000 or more. giving plants just what they need sounds like the 2000 calorie route to me. as much as i dont condone the 3000, doesnt 2500 sound ideal?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2009)

curious.george said:


> My understanding is that N is different in soil than hydro. In soil it is hard to keep the N in the soil.


Nitrates leach, ammonical forms of N don't.



> On another note: I have been reading this thread and the thing that confuses me is that in the Al. B. Faqt he says he get 20% more by using the PK boost in the 6th week of flowering. Is he compensating for a deficiency or did the PK boost make bigger buds?


Depends on the mass and health of his leaves which PK boosters generally don't support. They support some hydro vendor's bank account at the expense of a grower's crop. 

Perhaps he is like so many who forget what produces bud in favor of forum hype?

UB


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 19, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Perhaps he is like so many who forget what produces bud in favor of forum hype?
> 
> UB


forgive me, i just got up. could you explain this some more.

btw- this is a very intriguing discussion, please dont take my replies the wrong way.


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## IslandGreenGuy (Mar 19, 2009)

Uncle ben,,,,
I not gonna debate the use of Phosphorous with you because I would cetainly lose, as you plants are much larger then mine. But I am goin to say that Using Advanced Nutrients Big Bud has dramaticly increased the yeild of my plants cut and dry. When I did add it at a ppm of 600 to my res. I saw huge differences in size in just a couple of weeks. Mind you I was growing from clones so I have a good comparison to use. 

What would you say is the proper amount of P and K for flowering? Also, I continue to use my other nutes (advanced nutrients grow, micro, bloom) thoughout at a ppm of 2000 and my lower leaves still fall off wilt.

Just curious on what your thoughts on this are..


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## laserbrn (Mar 19, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> Great post Uncle Ben.
> I've been thinking along those lines and on my current grow I've kept up the nitrogen, in smaller doses than vegging, and after 6 weeks of 12/12 my buds are much bigger and denser than usual, and the leaf integrity has remained good, although not as green as before when vegging.


Oh spiked1 you fought me tooth an nail on this issue. I'm glad that you took my advice ANYWAY and you have found the same thing that I was trying to tell you, greener leaves at the end mean fatter buds. Glad the discussion didn't go to waste.


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## spiked1 (Mar 19, 2009)

laserbrn said:


> Oh spiked1 you fought me tooth an nail on this issue. I'm glad that you took my advice ANYWAY and you have found the same thing that I was trying to tell you, greener leaves at the end mean fatter buds. Glad the discussion didn't go to waste.


I remember now, I wasn't disagreeing with you as much as you thought, but I am old enough to know that I'm not always right. So I decided to try adding more nitrogen during flower after our discussion and was nicely surprised at the results. So I'm still adding some fish emulsion with my bloom nutes and they seem to like it, my leaves haven't gone yellow and fallen off after 6 1/2 weeks of budding, my buds are growing big, fat and solid.


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## laserbrn (Mar 19, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> I remember now, I wasn't disagreeing with you as much as you thought, but I am old enough to know that I'm not always right. So I decided to try adding more nitrogen during flower after our discussion and was nicely surprised at the results. So I'm still adding some fish emulsion with my bloom nutes and they seem to like it, my leaves haven't gone yellow and fallen off after 6 1/2 weeks of budding, my buds are growing big, fat and solid.


I know, I'm just glad that you tried it. It's much more rewarding and unfortunately there's so much spread around here about how it's "Okay" early on to have yellowing and to harvest your plants with no leaves. 

I'm definitely going to give you +rep for TRYING it instead of being stubborn like most on here and believing everything that you read.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 19, 2009)

laserbrn said:


> I know, I'm just glad that you tried it. It's much more rewarding and unfortunately there's so much spread around here about how it's "Okay" early on to have yellowing and to harvest your plants with no leaves.
> 
> I'm definitely going to give you +rep for TRYING it instead of being stubborn like most on here and believing everything that you read.


That's what I'm talkin' about.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 19, 2009)

IslandGreenGuy said:


> Uncle ben,,,,
> I not gonna debate the use of Phosphorous with you because I would cetainly lose, as you plants are much larger then mine. But I am goin to say that Using Advanced Nutrients Big Bud has dramaticly increased the yeild of my plants cut and dry.


In spite of your leaves falling off? Sorry, I don't get it.



> What would you say is the proper amount of P and K for flowering? Also, I continue to use my other nutes (advanced nutrients grow, micro, bloom) thoughout at a ppm of 2000 and *my lower leaves still fall off wilt.*
> 
> Just curious on what your thoughts on this are..


Good luck,
UB


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## Big P (Mar 19, 2009)

im using GH Flora 3 part Series in DWC

I do the veg ratio for vegging which is 3 parts grow 2 parts micro 3 parts bloom


and I keep that mix for the plants until about the second week of flowering. after that i switch to 2 parts Grow 2 parts Micro 2 parts Bloom


then after 1 week of that i switch to full blast flowering mix which is 1 Grow 2 Micro 3 Bloom

then after a week of that which is the end of forth week of flower I begin to also add KoolBloom about 1 Tsp per gallon


7 days before I chop i flush with clearex

7 days after that i somke it


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## Mammath (Mar 19, 2009)

Great thread UB.
I use canna nutes with great success. They have a breakdown of 20-12-37 in their Flores mix.
More Nitrogen than Phosphorus and more Potassium than anything else.
Canna obviously feel Potassium and Nitrogen play more of an important role than Phosphorus during flowering.
My plants don't suffer much yellowing and dropping at all right through until chop time because of the high N factor in the Canna Flores.
I was surprised to see this high level of K in the nute but it works very well. 
Can you explain the importance of Potassium during flowering?

I also give them a blast of Canna PK 13-14 during week 5 of flowering, but it's only for one week. Works a treat.

Here's a pic of my latest grow at day 56 of 12/12, she's almost done, hardly dropped a leaf, and bud development has been exceptional.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2009)

Mammath said:


> Great thread UB.
> I use canna nutes with great success. They have a breakdown of 20-12-37 in their Flores mix.


For flowering that's a decent NPK ratio. 1-3-2 seems to be the "defacto" for soil growers, just splitting hairs here.



> My plants don't suffer much yellowing and dropping at all right through until chop time because of the high N factor in the Canna Flores.
> I was surprised to see this high level of K in the nute but it works very well.
> Can you explain the importance of Potassium during flowering?


Great that you carry leaves all the way through to harvest! That's what it's all about.

K? This explanation might help: http://www.jacksclassic.com/flowering_plant_care.html




> I also give them a blast of Canna PK 13-14 during week 5 of flowering, but it's only for one week. Works a treat.
> 
> Here's a pic of my latest grow at day 56 of 12/12, she's almost done, hardly dropped a leaf, and bud development has been exceptional.


Excellent job! You're gonna get some nice yields from your solid cultural practices......the fact that you've been able to retain most of your leaves in a green healthy condition until harvest. Sadly, this very important goal is what most folks fail to understand. Seems more important to go along with a forum paradigm than think outside of the box and carefully take care of plant requirements. Good on ya!

Happy harvest,
UB


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## KP2 (Mar 20, 2009)

thank you uncle ben, for having the patience when i did not .

only thing i think i can add, is try a 123 ratio for flower, up the potassium. you may just be pleasantly surprised. this goes out in general, not to any one poster...


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2009)

KP2 said:


> thank you uncle ben, for having the patience when i did not .
> 
> only thing i think i can add, is try a 123 ratio for flower, up the potassium. you may just be pleasantly surprised. this goes out in general, not to any one poster...


Well, patience is not my strongest virtue, just ask Aunt Benita.  That 1-2-3 is about right. I talked to Jack Peters about his 10-30-20 food, about the high amount of P, and he admitted it was more than enough.

Using a Bloom food is fine and dandy but if and when you start losing leaves prematurely, you best switch back to a more balanced mix.


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## laserbrn (Mar 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Using a Bloom food is fine and dandy but if and when you start losing leaves prematurely, you best switch back to a more balanced mix.


Wow, I thought I was the only one on this entire forum anymore that preached harvesting green leaves!

UB, glad to see another rational voice out there. I've been around on these forums for quite some time and it seems like the past year or two this misinformation has spread like fire. It's got to be the marketing of these "Bloom Enhancers", but when I tell growers to try it just once this way, they always come back and say they got better results.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2009)

laserbrn said:


> Wow, I thought I was the only one on this entire forum anymore that preached harvesting green leaves!
> 
> UB, glad to see another rational voice out there. I've been around on these forums for quite some time and it seems like the past year or two this misinformation has spread like fire. It's got to be the marketing of these "Bloom Enhancers", but when I tell growers to try it just once this way, they always come back and say they got better results.


It's the blind leading the blind, folks pushing rocket fuel names rather than sound plant culture. FWIW, I use the term "forum paradigms" quite frequently in cannabis forums. 

Rational thought will set you free,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2009)

Case in point, here is an example of how important it is to maintain leaves in a healthy green condition. I added a little too much blood meal to my potting soil, didn't get any burn though and that's what's important. The side benefit of maintaining leaf health is getting a double harvest too. Harvest #1 - snip the cola at a point where it turns from a "fat can" to airy buds, and place the plant back under the lights to bulk up them up, for harvest #2....it makes a big difference in overall yield.

*42 days into flowering with LOT'S of chlorophyll:* *








70 days into flowering. Cola is about 24" long, about 3" - 6" in girth:








Harvest, fan leaves looking pretty worn but still hanging on:







Cola macro showing very dense bud structure:







*


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## ejf1676 (Mar 21, 2009)

uncle ben this is very intriguing advice i am kind of new to indoor and have had many of the issues you have described and have had a hard time finding straight forward information based in experience (lots of technical speculation) next grow i will definitely try prescribing to your theory's i will be using ionic brand ferts soil/coco 2-1-2 and bloom 1-1-3 on my hydro shops recommendation (he had really good results with this) as i am new to this fert it will be interesting to see how it works and what supplements it will need (i supplement organically as being familiar to outdoor) as i am not able to find much in the way of people who use these nutes anyway thanks uncle well presented!


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## Stoney Jake (Mar 21, 2009)

Beautiful UB


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## wbinwv (Mar 21, 2009)

Very interesting post UB. I use Jacks Classic Orchid 30-10-10 for veg and the 10-30-20 Blossom Booster for flower. These plants have been flowering for 37 days and I'm seeing much of the premature yellowing that you're talking about. However, it looks like I'm going to get a decent yield from these two. I'm wondering how much better it would have been had I read this thread sooner.

I'm switching to Aero after this which is my last soil grow but I just took these pictures to share them with you so you could see an example of the premature yellowing that you speak of. What you say makes perfect sense to me.


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## laserbrn (Mar 21, 2009)

You have no idea how good your yeild would have been. But that much yellowing at Day 37? Have you checked the PH of your runoff? Looks like you locked something out, your nutes aren't that far off and that doesn't look like N deficiency. Is that the ONLY flowering nutes you are using? The 10-30-20 sounds like one of the over-hyped "bloom enhancer"'s. If this is the only food you gave it, then it would present problems, but I'm not sure that this is what it would look like and that it would be this severe. Did it start early and progress slowly or did this show up all of a sudden (less than a week)?

Could be the nutes, could be PH, but you should look into regular fertilizers instead of using a "bloom enhancer" for your main feed for sure. Those Bloom Enhancers aren't supposed to be used until later in flowering.


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## wbinwv (Mar 21, 2009)

laserbrn said:


> You have no idea how good your yeild would have been. But that much yellowing at Day 37? Have you checked the PH of your runoff? Looks like you locked something out, your nutes aren't that far off and that doesn't look like N deficiency. Is that the ONLY flowering nutes you are using? The 10-30-20 sounds like one of the over-hyped "bloom enhancer"'s. If this is the only food you gave it, then it would present problems, but I'm not sure that this is what it would look like and that it would be this severe. Did it start early and progress slowly or did this show up all of a sudden (less than a week)?
> 
> Could be the nutes, could be PH, but you should look into regular fertilizers instead of using a "bloom enhancer" for your main feed for sure. Those Bloom Enhancers aren't supposed to be used until later in flowering.


I use ph'd water from 5.5 in clone stage to 6 now and my runoff this morning was 6.3 ....The yellowing didnt start until approx 20 days into flower but it is spreading fast. 

I don't understand what you're talking about in reference to the Jack's Classic. It is my understanding that the 10-30-20 Blossom Booster with micronutrients ....IS regular fertilizer / proper nutes to feed during flower. I had no idea that this is only an "additive" and if so, the guy that owns the shop where I bought this stuff is clueless.

So if what I'm using isnt correct then what IS correct flowering food?


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## laserbrn (Mar 21, 2009)

wbinwv said:


> I use ph'd water from 5.5 in clone stage to 6 now and my runoff this morning was 6.3 ....The yellowing didnt start until approx 20 days into flower but it is spreading fast.
> 
> I don't understand what you're talking about in reference to the Jack's Classic. It is my understanding that the 10-30-20 Blossom Booster with micronutrients ....IS regular fertilizer / proper nutes to feed during flower. I had no idea that this is only an "additive" and if so, the guy that owns the shop where I bought this stuff is clueless.
> 
> So if what I'm using isnt correct then what IS correct flowering food?


It may very well be, I just think it's too high in P and I wouldn't have used it until later in flower. But I usually grow in Hydro and things are a little different. It's clearly not a bloom booster because it has N, most of them have none and books P and/or K heavily. 

It seems like it was working and something else has gone wrong if it's that drastic. Buds look good though, which is always the argument for the high P fertilizers. You're definitely going to get a good yeild and they look great.


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## wbinwv (Mar 21, 2009)

laserbrn said:


> It may very well be, I just think it's too high in P and I wouldn't have used it until later in flower. But I usually grow in Hydro and things are a little different. It's clearly not a bloom booster because it has N, most of them have none and books P and/or K heavily.
> 
> It seems like it was working and something else has gone wrong if it's that drastic. Buds look good though, which is always the argument for the high P fertilizers. You're definitely going to get a good yeild and they look great.


 
Thank you and I do agree with you that there is a problem somewhere. Maybe UB can shed some light.

I'm switching to Aero on my next grow anyway.


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## IslandGreenGuy (Mar 21, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> In spite of your leaves falling off? Sorry, I don't get it.
> 
> I'm gonna give your method a try to the fullest. And if it truely does yeild more then my current ways, I will not only praise you in this forum, but I will tell everyone I was wrong and you were right. But first, Here is my problem...
> 
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2009)

ejf1676 said:


> uncle ben this is very intriguing advice i am kind of new to indoor and have had many of the issues you have described and have had a hard time finding straight forward information based in experience (lots of technical speculation) next grow i will definitely try prescribing to your theory's i will be using ionic brand ferts soil/coco 2-1-2 and bloom 1-1-3 on my hydro shops recommendation (he had really good results with this) as i am new to this fert it will be interesting to see how it works and what supplements it will need (i supplement organically as being familiar to outdoor) as i am not able to find much in the way of people who use these nutes anyway thanks uncle well presented!


Thanks, hope it works out for you! Don't worry about the buds....worry about the root system and foliage.



Stoney Jake said:


> Beautiful UB


Gracias ~



IslandGreenGuy said:


> I'm gonna give your method a try to the fullest. And if it truely does yeild more then my current ways, I will not only praise you in this forum, but I will tell everyone I was wrong and you were right. But first, Here is my problem...
> 
> I do have some yellowing on the lower leaves and some may drop off. I don't this as an issue at all considering the light doesn't even penatrate the leaves that were falling off anyway.


Depends on your garden profile, but you're right, only R and FR light penetrates to the lower area.



> Couldn't it be that the leaves are falling off becasue the plant knows that those leaves are just waisting water and nutrients, because they cant properly complete photosynthesis being so far from a strong light source? And as a solution to the problem they just get rid of them.


True. The plant uses a CO2 flag. If the leaf isn't processing much CO2 for whatever reason, it drops it, first determining whether it's productive or not.



> Just to back this theory up a bit.
> I do notice that the plants I have grow outside using the same nutrients didn't have the yellowing or dropping leaves during flowering. Probibly because the light is penatrating much deaper. It just makes more sense to me then a lack of N or to much P.


Part of that flag. You can't paint plant culture with one broad brush. It's the sum of the parts.



> the reason I wouldn't say it's becasue of a lack of nitrogen, is because I have plenty of it in my ferts.
> 
> I was just stating before in an earlier post that the clones I grow without adding AN big bud (0-17-3 or shultz bloom booster (10-54-10) were much smaller then the one's I did add it to. I'm talking like 50% smaller. And I was using Advanced Nutrients 3 part GMB.


OK, so the productivity issue goes right back to my premise - how is the health of the leaves?



> No doubt that your method works you have proved it with your pictures.


I don't have no method, me and you only have botany.



> I would just say that for a new grower or intermediate grower, It would be much easier to stick with the info thats more readily available in the growing community.


Which most times is erroneous, but, you do what you want to do.



> So when they ask for help, they don't get 500 other growers telling them they are wrong and need to learn the proper way of doing stuff.


Seems to me they need to find out what makes a plant tick. Rest becomes easy.



> Uncle Ben, what size pots you use, and how about the soil mix? I just want to make sure I'm right on the money.


I germ in a 1 gallon pot or less, upcan and finish in a 3 or 5 gallon. I mix my own soil.

UB


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## billdo (Mar 24, 2009)

I learned this the hard way while using only BMO Flower Power (1-8-7) the whole way through flower last grow, now I am using small doses of BMO Grow it Green (5-2-5) with it and having MUCH healthier ladies because of it.

BILLDO


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## SlikWiLL13 (Mar 25, 2009)

billdo said:


> I learned this the hard way while using only BMO Flower Power (1-8-7) the whole way through flower last grow, now I am using small doses of BMO Grow it Green (5-2-5) with it and having MUCH healthier ladies because of it.
> 
> BILLDO


 
ive heard BMO's bloom formula lacks sufficient N. i think i heard they were going to change it too so when you get another bottle check.


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## billdo (Mar 25, 2009)

Yeah... it is no biggie to have to use a little big of Grow it Green with the Flower Power. The stuff is so forgiving on mixes, I have even started to eyeball measurements and then double check my measurements on the EC meter. I am training myself to be able to do that shit on the fly.

It would be great if they added a _little_ N to the Flower Power, but no biggie if they don't.


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## spiked1 (Mar 27, 2009)

I recently bought some Guano for the first time as I haven't been able to find it in OZ before.
I have 2 types, GROW is 10.10.2 and BLOOM is 1.9.1.
It is very low in potassium which I've attempted to make up for by adding mollasses.
What do you guys think, should I add something else to it as well?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 29, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> It is very low in potassium which I've attempted to make up for by adding mollasses.
> What do you guys think, should I add something else to it as well?


Saltpeter would be a great source for K.


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## Stoney Jake (Mar 29, 2009)

I started adding some grow nuts to my mix and noticed an immediate improvement. Leaves stopped yellowing but the ones that were already yellowing finished and fell off. No new ones have started yellowing though. 
It could just be a quinsadence but the buds seems to be growing at a faster rate(week 5 1/2 of 9-10). I just put some clones in flowering last week and have been giving them 6ml flowering(5-10-5) and 3ml of grow(12-6-6) with some molasses(about 20ml). Lookin forward to seeing the difference between them and their moms.


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## Never Secret, Never Safe (Apr 1, 2009)

It's called the law of minimums. A plant will only grow as much as it's limiting factor allows. Be it Calcium, Magnesium, or any other nutrient. Minus these nutrients and plants get diseases.

Too much can be inhibitory. Just add as much as needed but no more than twice as much. More than that could stress the plant.


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## spiked1 (Apr 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Saltpeter would be a great source for K.


Saltpetre (US Saltpeter)
Potassium Nitrate NPK = 13-0-38
If I added this to my Guano Bloom It would be NPK 14-9-39
I'm not sure that would be a good thing.
Any other way to increase Potassium while keeping it Organic?


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## Stoney Jake (Apr 1, 2009)

Never Secret said:


> It's called the law of minimums. A plant will only grow as much as it's limiting factor allows. Be it Calcium, Magnesium, or any other nutrient. Minus these nutrients and plants get diseases.
> 
> Too much can be inhibitory. Just add as much as needed but no more than twice as much. More than that could stress the plant.



Im not sure what your point is. My first grow I used no nutes, only water, light and my plant grew fine ane the smoke was good. I had no "diseases" from lack of nutrients. A lower yield and less trichomes maybe but no diseases


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 1, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> Saltpetre (US Saltpeter)
> Potassium Nitrate NPK = 13-0-38
> If I added this to my Guano Bloom It would be NPK 14-9-39
> I'm not sure that would be a good thing.
> Any other way to increase Potassium while keeping it Organic?


Organic? Is that an idealogy you hold so dear or do you know something I don't? Whether saltpeter is derived from manure or processed in a mill, a salt is a salt to a plant. Your organics are useless unless the either contain salts from the get-go or will convert to them, like blood or bone meal does.

Good point on the Law of Minimums. Here's a good site too: http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/nutri.html

Good luck,
UB


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## BigBudBalls (Apr 1, 2009)

gvega187 said:


> who in the fuk uses 10-60-10?



I do . *Once*. Around week 5 or 6. Its just a bloom boost (that 1lb tub I bought will last a century)


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## spiked1 (Apr 1, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Organic? Is that an idealogy you hold so dear or do you know something I don't? Whether saltpeter is derived from manure or processed in a mill, a salt is a salt to a plant. Your organics are useless unless the either contain salts from the get-go or will convert to them, like blood or bone meal does.
> 
> 
> UB


Why did you pick on that particular part and ignore what I said about the nitrogen content of saltpetre? Did you read my post or do you have something against growing as organically as I can?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 2, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> Why did you pick on that particular part and ignore what I said about the nitrogen content of saltpetre? Did you read my post or do you have something against growing as organically as I can?


1. The organic market is a racket based on feelings than fact,

2. Not sure what your point was about the NPK.

Good luck,
UB


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## spiked1 (Apr 2, 2009)

Fair enough. I live in a small country town these days and lost my license so I'm fairly limited in what I can get from the local hardware store.
I bought 10 litres of Guano online, if I had known the NPK was 1.9.1. I probably wouldn't have bought it. I'll look into the saltpetre.
Thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> Fair enough. I live in a small country town these days and lost my license so I'm fairly limited in what I can get from the local hardware store.
> I bought 10 litres of Guano online, if I had known the NPK was 1.9.1. I probably wouldn't have bought it. I'll look into the saltpetre.
> Thanks.


I forgot to mention it, greensand is a good source of K. What the short or long term availability is of the actual K is, or what salt form, I don't know.

UB


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## Bud Frosty (Apr 3, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...


*I agree, Uncle Ben.*
*How many threads have you seen that start out; OMG MY LEAVES ARE DYING!*
*After switching to 12/12, it's still the same plant. If your plant is doing well, the last thing you want to do is throw it a curveball. I always give mine more N during the stretch and dont up the P until halfway through flowering. Even then, sparingly. Watch the plant. She'll tell you what she needs.*

*P.S. Keep up the awesome grows.*


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## SlikWiLL13 (Apr 3, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I forgot to mention it, greensand is a good source of K. What the short or long term availability is of the actual K is, or what salt form, I don't know.
> 
> UB


 
greensand 0-0-3


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## Mr.Funk (Apr 3, 2009)

Yes very intristing unk ben, im about to switch over to 12/12 and have a plant food that is 10-50-10. Im ganna follow the directions but if the leaves start turning on me could i switch back to the all pupose 20-30-20 i just hit them full strenghth and flushed the day after. I would also like to know when should i add the bloom. Thanks


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## spiked1 (Apr 4, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I forgot to mention it, greensand is a good source of K. What the short or long term availability is of the actual K is, or what salt form, I don't know.
> 
> UB


Thanks UB, not too sure where to find Saltpetre or Greensand but I'll ask around.
Cheers.


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## SlikWiLL13 (Apr 5, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> Thanks UB, not too sure where to find Saltpetre or Greensand but I'll ask around.
> Cheers.


greensand should be availible at any good garden center, dont know about saltpeter.


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## Mr.Funk (Apr 5, 2009)

Ok ill figure it out thanks anyways


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2009)

Mr.Funk said:


> Yes very intristing unk ben, im about to switch over to 12/12 and have a plant food that is 10-50-10. Im ganna follow the directions but if the leaves start turning on me could i switch back to the all pupose 20-30-20 i just hit them full strenghth and flushed the day after. I would also like to know when should i add the bloom. Thanks


Sorry, guess I missed ya. Such a high P food will contribute to the stretch as will foods that are high in ammonical N. 

Yes, switch back to a more balanced food if you start losing leaves. Remember it's leaves that produce bud, not labels. Forget about the production and concentrate on maintaining leaves in a GREEN and healthy condition.

Good luck,
UB


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## Mr.Funk (Apr 7, 2009)

Cool thanks, thats ok if you overlooked the post no problem at all, do you think i should add the bloom as soon as i know the sex its bagseed so i have to wait and see what im getting ya know it sucks but ohh well what the heck ill give it a shot.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2009)

Mr.Funk said:


> Cool thanks, thats ok if you overlooked the post no problem at all, do you think i should add the bloom as soon as i know the sex its bagseed so i have to wait and see what im getting ya know it sucks but ohh well what the heck ill give it a shot.


I'd use the 20-30-20 before the 10-50-10. Your call. Try it and see. If it doesn't work out you'll know better the next time around. Experimenting is what it's all about.


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## parttimer (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks for some good advice that is now being used by a first time grower


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## SpruceZeus (Apr 7, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. The organic market is a racket based on feelings than fact,
> Good luck,
> UB


I couldn't agree more, organic growing is the biggest sham since the nail through stem "technique".
A bunch of misinformation, mad bureaucracy to get certified, and a huge grey area. 
At the end of the day, because something like taste is a very subjective thing, you would be hard pressed to prove any benefeits of using organics vs "chems"

That is my opinion, take it or leave it.


I do have to also agree with the original post. Most people (myself included) are guilty of neglecting the leaves as soon as they switch to 12/12. 
Like you said, its like we treat it like a different plant as soon as its flowering time.
In my most recent project (ebb and flow tables), because i'm going straight from clone into flower, i've been mixing my 3 part (hollands secret) geared more towards a balaced feeding, rather than the p-k heavy regimen the label suggests. With great results!!! 





The plants are all a very dark shade of green, and bud development hasn't been hurt in the slightest. There is only a bit of rust remaining from my poor cloning ability. I do plan on continuing to feed slightly more N than recomended by the label, so long as it appears everything is still moving along at a good clip.
Anyhow, thanks for a great thread that i'm sure will continue to be a great place for the free discussion of ideas.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 7, 2009)

Nice work SZ. Keep it green.


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## Drr (Apr 18, 2009)

roots grow in the dark right?? and adding a lot of phos which makes bud and root growth during 12/12 before they are in full flower will make them concentrate on the roots since there are no flowers yet..(I think "flowering" starts when the flowers start not when you choose to let it know its the TIME of year to flower) make sense?

I also think when using huge pots from the start, the roots don't even come close to filling out the container before 12/12, and with the high phos/low nitro people use make for MAJOR stretching..(also 24/0 veg will prevent good strong roots untl 12/12 which also bring on the strecth) A plant will and can only get as high as it roots it self deep. (unless supported) Pot size/depth helps control plant hieght i believe 

As for nitro.. if you are giving the plant 10 nitro.. it should get 10 nitro or a bit more(since there are bigger leaves) all the way through.. WHY on earth would the plant want less of what it is getting to survive?? doesn't matter if its flowering or not.. im sure lower nitro will prent huge growth in flowering stage and more bud growth.. BUT IT"S ALL ABOUT THE RIGHT COMBINATION AND TIMING. 

potash.. well if it promotes stem and health, then why not use a decent amount all the way through??? and maybe more a bit more in early flower seeing the bud stem is a STEM.. and stems are the highways that deliver water/nutes right??


Micro nutrients are probably often over looked also..


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## Drr (Apr 18, 2009)

Not a huge amount of experience here.. But research is my strong suit.. and these are all just MY theories.. So haters can jump off a bridge before you even post.

I do however welcome a discussion. Since we are on a discussion board...

Peace.


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## Kriegs (Apr 18, 2009)

Drr said:


> roots grow in the dark right?? and adding a lot of phos which makes bud and root growth during 12/12 before they are in full flower will make them concentrate on the roots since there are no flowers yet..(I think "flowering" starts when the flowers start not when you choose to let it know its the TIME of year to flower) make sense?
> 
> I also think when using huge pots from the start, the roots don't even come close to filling out the container before 12/12, and with the high phos/low nitro people use make for MAJOR stretching..(also 24/0 veg will prevent good strong roots untl 12/12 which also bring on the strecth) A plant will and can only get as high as it roots it self deep. (unless supported) Pot size/depth helps control plant hieght i believe
> 
> ...


A few comments..

I don't think you can "make a plant concentrate.." on anything. A plant will concentrate on what is most immediate to it given the life cycle stage. The major root building happens early, then continues at a lessening pace throughout. That's why they seem to "sit there" for the first two weeks or so. Ever pull up a little 5-day old seedling? It has a massive root network for that tiny little plant. By pulling one, you see that about 90% of that first week goes into roots.

I don't see the relationship between pot size, root depth, and plant height. My plants were in 10" rounds (2-gallon); grew to 60" and were fully self-supporting; big ol' stiff stems like trees. My pots were about 70-80% occupied by roots when I chopped them; there actually was a lot of room for new roots to grow in there still.

I believe (but don't know for certain) that there may be a point where a high-phos food is useful. But, if that point exists, I think it's in the last 3-4 weeks of flowering. Think about what a plant is doing most of up thru week 5-6 of flowering? More than anything, it's producing VEG material.. way more volume and weight than flower material. It's only in that last month when the bud really packs on, gets dense, and leaf development stops or reverses.

Lastly, potassium is rarely ever limiting in soil. Only in weird geologic situations do you find this; never in a commercial soil. Same goes for most micro-nutes; I'm sure a deficiency crops up once in a blue moon, but it's way out there, IMO.


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## SlikWiLL13 (Apr 18, 2009)

Kriegs said:


> A few comments..
> 
> I don't think you can "make a plant concentrate.." on anything. A plant will concentrate on what is most immediate to it given the life cycle stage. The major root building happens early, then continues at a lessening pace throughout. That's why they seem to "sit there" for the first two weeks or so. Ever pull up a little 5-day old seedling? It has a massive root network for that tiny little plant. By pulling one, you see that about 90% of that first week goes into roots.
> 
> ...


couldnt have said it better myself.


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## Drr (Apr 18, 2009)

Kriegs said:


> A few comments..
> 
> I don't think you can "make a plant concentrate.." on anything. A plant will concentrate on what is most immediate to it given the life cycle stage. The major root building happens early, then continues at a lessening pace throughout. That's why they seem to "sit there" for the first two weeks or so. Ever pull up a little 5-day old seedling? It has a massive root network for that tiny little plant. By pulling one, you see that about 90% of that first week goes into roots.
> 
> ...



By concentrate i meant the phos will be used for root growth instead of flowering SINCE there are NO flowers YET. YES it starts. but no where near what it needs in the last weeks. the flower growth needs to be stimulated in the early stages not raped. it can only use so much to flower the rest obviously gets distributed to the roots.... which im my theory makes smaller root systems take off with 12 hours of dark. temp is a huge factor i beleive also in strecthing.

As for your plant.. YOU HAD ROOM FOR MORE ROOTS which means it probably could have grown a bit more. PLUS i'm talking bushy also not just tall. OVERALL WEIGHT AND CENTER OF GRAVITY.. a plant in a 5 inch pot isn't even going to get close to 60 inch's unless supported.. please don't tell me it will. one cola straight up with no side branches is less likely to tip then a plant with 6 colas the same hieght. and a 2 gallon pot with soil is pretty damn heavy my friend. and you didn't come close to testing my theory.. you had more root room and a heavy pot therefore you didn't max out the pot and have the plant stay at that hieight and bush out until it cant anymore.. try it..


I agree with the higher phos in the end of the flowering cycle.. but there is such thing as too much in this world.. with everything..


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## Mr.Funk (Apr 18, 2009)

Yea this is my first time really growing and that sounds like it would be a training to get more growth in the leaves are important to the plants needs.


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## Kriegs (Apr 18, 2009)

Drr said:


> By concentrate i meant the phos will be used for root growth instead of flowering SINCE there are NO flowers YET. YES it starts. but no where near what it needs in the last weeks. the flower growth needs to be stimulated in the early stages not raped. it can only use so much to flower the rest obviously gets distributed to the roots.... which im my theory makes smaller root systems take off with 12 hours of dark. temp is a huge factor i beleive also in strecthing.
> 
> As for your plant.. YOU HAD ROOM FOR MORE ROOTS which means it probably could have grown a bit more. PLUS i'm talking bushy also not just tall. OVERALL WEIGHT AND CENTER OF GRAVITY.. a plant in a 5 inch pot isn't even going to get close to 60 inch's unless supported.. please don't tell me it will. one cola straight up with no side branches is less likely to tip then a plant with 6 colas the same hieght. and a 2 gallon pot with soil is pretty damn heavy my friend. and you didn't come close to testing my theory.. you had more root room and a heavy pot therefore you didn't max out the pot and have the plant stay at that hieight and bush out until it cant anymore.. try it..
> 
> ...


Wasn't trying to test any theories.. just tellin ya that my 10" pots easily supported 60" plants. Sure, they could've been bigger; I chose my switch to 12/12 arbitrarily. You said a plant only grows as high as its roots' depth.. maybe you didn't mean that literally. And I wasn't really thinking of the pot as a ballast. For the space I have, maxing out plant size in veg isn't an option, as much fun as it might be.

As far as Phos or any other nutrient flowing one way or another in a pot or plant, non-usage in one growth process doesn't translate to usage in another. It's not necessarily an "either/or" process. And, it's only partly true that root growth occurs at night. Roots grow day and night, but at different rates. In general, root growth is FASTER at night, but WHY? 

Because in natural soil, the roots experience the warmer temperatures of daytime later at NIGHT, because there is a lag from when the daytime heat hits below the soil surface. So, the greater root growth is due to TEMPERATURE, not light or time of day per se. So, soil in pots in an indoor environment experience warmer temps when your light is ON, not off and thus, the normal natural relationship is inversed by the artificial environment.

So, there is no reason for root growth to take off when you go to 12/12. Quite the opposite... root growth slows down in 12/12 because they experience more time in the cool (unless you have rigid temp control in your room, which some do).


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## Stoney Jake (Apr 18, 2009)

I flowered a 20" tall plant in a 5" tall 16oz cup


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## Mr.Funk (Apr 18, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd use the 20-30-20 before the 10-50-10. Your call. Try it and see. If it doesn't work out you'll know better the next time around. Experimenting is what it's all about.


 I couldn't agree with you more on that 1 my man her she is at 2 weeks and at 28" tall. Do you think i should switch it up and go with the veg nutes. Thanks for the info what do you think.


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## Drr (Apr 19, 2009)

Stoney Jake said:


> I flowered a 20" tall plant in a 5" tall 16oz cup


how did it grow.. did it max out it's height and start bushing a bit? 

DETAILS


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## Drr (Apr 19, 2009)

Kriegs said:


> Wasn't trying to test any theories.. just tellin ya that my 10" pots easily supported 60" plants. Sure, they could've been bigger; I chose my switch to 12/12 arbitrarily. You said a plant only grows as high as its roots' depth.. maybe you didn't mean that literally. And I wasn't really thinking of the pot as a ballast. For the space I have, maxing out plant size in veg isn't an option, as much fun as it might be.
> 
> As far as Phos or any other nutrient flowing one way or another in a pot or plant, non-usage in one growth process doesn't translate to usage in another. It's not necessarily an "either/or" process. And, it's only partly true that root growth occurs at night. Roots grow day and night, but at different rates. In general, root growth is FASTER at night, but WHY?
> 
> ...



thanks for the info.. and I didnt mean it literally.. but i mean the pot size and more so weight can be a factor.. due it it falling over.. it wont do that to itself.. it will stop going up and bush out as far as it can.. I have experience with 2 clones like this.. 5 inch pots not big at all..


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## frostythesnowthug (Apr 19, 2009)

bit slow on catching this thread..
i've been supplementing my plants with veg nutes all the way thru flowering since i started growing, just at 1/3 dose i would use during veg period.
I had a lil yellowing a couple of times and figured it was common sense to try to supply enough GROW type nutes during flowering, to maintain healthy new growth yet not soo much as it slows up the flowering process..
Works fine for me.. minimal stretch,dense buds and retain leaves til harvest.
My nutes of choice are generally biobizz grow, biobizz bloom or canna flores cant remeber the NPK levels...maybe a lil molasses and topmax if i have it to hand.

Interesting thread  & Nice plants UB - keep up the great work - +rep


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## Kriegs (Apr 19, 2009)

Drr said:


> thanks for the info.. and I didnt mean it literally.. but i mean the pot size and more so weight can be a factor.. due it it falling over.. it wont do that to itself.. it will stop going up and bush out as far as it can.. I have experience with 2 clones like this.. 5 inch pots not big at all..


Cool.. It dawned on me what you meant as I was typing and by then, I just said what the heck... peace...


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## Stoney Jake (Apr 19, 2009)

half gallon bags...They werent supposed to get this big lol week 4 of 10. Just starting to pack on the buds. Doesnt matter what size pot you put them in as long as you give them what they need they will grow as big as the strain wants to. These would easily be 36-40" tall plants if I didnt bend them

These clones have had grow nutes the whole way through(and bloom in flowering of course) and they havent yellowed one single leaf. They look 100 times better then the mothers they came from. Thanks again for helping me to see common sense UB


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## Roseman (Nov 11, 2009)

Uncle Ben,

I try to read eveyrthing you post and skip the inbetween BS posts argueing with you. 
(Like on that Lolipopping thread)

I am on my 8th indoor closet hydroponic grow, and I am experimenting with Nitrogen in the Flowering Cycle because of your posts. 

I was using Bloom nutes with NO Nitrogen at all in them. I used them on 7 grows. I was told for the past 3 years that it ws natural for the plant's lower leaves to yellow and fall off during Flowring and I mistakenly accepted that as fact. HERD mentality. 

What made me doubt it is when I grew outdoors in heavy fertilized patches many yers ago, heavy in manure and all kinds of nitrogen, none of the lower fan leaves yellowed and fell off then.

Then I read up on ADVANCED NUTRIENTS. 
I was told by many growers that use them that they will balance the pH for you and you can toss the pH UP and the pH Down if you use Advanced Nutrients.
Sounded good to me, so I ordered the BLOOM, and they came in two one gallon jugs, labeled Part A and Part B. The instructions say to add them separately to the tank and make the ppm 800 to 900 per reservoir or 1.8 tablespoon per gallon of water.
That was simple enough.

I noticed that one container contained NO Nitrogen, and very high on Phosperous and very little Potassium.
The other container was High on Nitrogen, Low on Phosperous and High on Potassium. 
Hmmmmm??? Nitrogen in Bloom Nutes????? That was rare to me.

They claim that ADVANCED NUTRIENTS is one of the very few nutrients sold and labeled that they are made especially for marijuana growing. 

Hhhhhmmmm? Bloom Nutes High in Nitrogen??????

The container labeled High in Nitrogen looks like Liquid Karma, it is a brown liquid and not thin either. I decided to remain loyal to my SH pre-packaged nutes for this grow, but I wanted to try the ADVANCED NUTRIENTS, so I used them ONLY in my 5 gallon experimental bucket.

After two days, I noticed a couple of changes.
One, first thing I noticed is they started having a stronger skunk smell again, like when they were in the VEG cycle. A few days after I first started the BLOOM nutes , the strong smell diminshed. After adding the Advanced Nutrients with Nitrogen, the bad stink came back And strong too.
Two, secondly I noticed that the the lower third of the plant's leaves QUIT having dying off, falling off, yellowing leaves. I was averaging 3 or 4 leaves a day falling off per plant, and suddenly NONE fell off. They all quit yellowing and falling off.
Three, I noticed all kinds of new green leaves growing out of the flowers or bud sites.

Hhhhmmmm, had to be the Nitrogen!

So I spent almost an entire day googling and searching for info on adding Nitrogen during the Flowereing Cycle. VERY INTERESTING.
I ALSO LOOKED THROUGH 4 BOOKS. All I could find is advice saying DO NOT ADD VEG NUTES(Nitrogen) DURING THE BLOOM CYCLE, because of the affect on TASTE. There was no other reason NOT to do it.

So, I asked some expert growers.
You said that you always adds a small amount of Nitrogen nutes to the Bloom Cycle and none of your lower leaves yellow and fall off.
A nameless large outdoor commerical grower that I know told me he digs a giant hole and throws all the dirt away and fills the hole back up with an assortment of different soils, peat moss, all kinds of different manure and bat poop and all kinds of nitrogen. He said when his plants naturally go to 12/12, they never shed a lower leaf. He never adds any phosperous or anything else either. He grows those 15 to 20 foot tall trees too.
He said he does not flush them, how could he flush an outdoor tree in soil? And he says that he never gets any nitrogen-fertilizer taste in his buds either.

And in my asking around, many indoor hydro growers say their secret trick is to add a little Nitrogen during BLOOM to get larger plants and larger buds and a larger harvest.

So, on my other two tanks, when I added one gallon of water back, I added 1/6 packet of my regular VEG nutes. Now they are not shedding any leaves and the bud sites are rapidly filling in too.

And they are all stinking to high heaven.


I think most books and many experienced growers are wrong about this Nitrogen in Flowering Cycle and nee dto experiment with it to get larger yields..

And let me tell you two years ago, (I have pics) I was helping my X wife do a grow at her house, and her husband bought a book and wanted to lollipop her plants and she did. She averaged one and half oucnes of dried buds frome each plant, while I averaged 4, growing the same strain, in the same DWC system with the same lights.

Just because someone makes a name for a procedure , doesn't make it right.


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## thewinghunter (Nov 11, 2009)

I appreciate the advice uncle ben i go into flowering on the 14


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## Mammath (Nov 12, 2009)

Great post Roseman because the 'proofs in the pudding' so to speak.
Great experiment mate, and hopefully we've all learned a lot from your 'actual' experience.

I have posted about this earlier but I want to chime in again here to agree that N still plays a very important roll in flowering.

I always run plenty of N during flowering and almost lose no leaves, even until the end with a flush.
In my latest grow however, I've dropped the N from 20% to 14% during flowering by changing from 'Canna' to 'House and Garden' bloom nutes. ( I'm a coco - hydro fella)

I did this purely because 20% seemed too much, and probably was during flowering, but even at 14% my current plant is deep green with no loss of leaves and I'm at day 52.

It grieves the shit out of me when I see plants dropping yellow leaves at day 28.

Healthy foliage = healthy flowers in my experience


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## Roseman (Nov 20, 2009)

This thread needs bumping.


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## Roseman (Nov 22, 2009)

My experiments of adding N to my Bubbleponics grow are mind-blowing. I am adding a very very small amount of VEG nutes, every three days, and I have not picked up one dead leaf in two weeks now. My lower bottom 1/3 of each plant is very thick lucuious green too. My buds are thickening and growing like crazy too.

Look at the last 3 or 4 pages for pics here:
Roseman's DIY Bubbleponics Tutorial - Marijuana Growing


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## GrowingStrains (Nov 22, 2009)

I would have to say that these factors arent direct to growers results. I noticed a few replies like mine here, i used 20-20-20 veg and now on 10-52-10, switched to that after 3ft plants, and they still look gorgeous just sitting on the ground in the closet. 2nd week of flowering now and all good. I like these debates tho... and you'll never know if it wont work until you try it, and hopefully using good soil and light.
DIEMS


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 22, 2009)

Roseman said:


> My experiments of adding N to my Bubbleponics grow are mind-blowing. I am adding a very very small amount of VEG nutes, every three days, and I have not picked up one dead leaf in two weeks now. My lower bottom 1/3 of each plant is very thick lucuious green too. My buds are thickening and growing like crazy too.
> 
> Look at the last 3 or 4 pages for pics here:
> Roseman's DIY Bubbleponics Tutorial - Marijuana Growing


Yep, it's all about the leaves, NOT the bud!



GrowingStrains said:


> I would have to say that these factors arent direct to growers results. I noticed a few replies like mine here, i used 20-20-20 veg and now on 10-52-10, switched to that after 3ft plants, and they still look gorgeous just sitting on the ground in the closet.


Be interesting to see how gorgeous they look after being hit with a 10-52-10 for weeks on end.

It aint about debates, it's all about botany as you're soon to find out.

Good luck,
UB


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## shannonball (Nov 25, 2009)

UB knows his weed. i've been following his advice for the past two years and never had an issue with his postings...we've been growing since 1975, mainly outdoors as we have the space and privacy, along with a few indoor grows. we recently switched to blue mountain organics and alternate feedings/waterings...when in the bloom stage we use something along this line...water one week, the next time use grow it green at 1/3 strength along with flower power, next time water and use a foliar spray, then the next time flower power only, and repeat the whole cycle...so we are giving them some N about every three time...here is a chart we use in case you are interested. 




Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, it's all about the leaves, NOT the bud!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks for playing along! It's all about learning to read your plants, eh?


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## MostlyCrazy (Nov 25, 2009)

You got it right UB! Reading the plant is where it's at. Roseman lead me to this thread and I will change my usual way of doing things and add more N as I transition. I use the GH Flora line and usually go with a 1-2-3 mix in flower right at 12/12. I think I'll go 2-2-3 this time around in an effort to support the stretch and help eliminate the usual leaf drop. Stronger plants for better bud!


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## jjf1978 (Nov 25, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Good on ya! That's how it's done. Have enough N available to support green (healthy) productive leaves. I tend to err on the high side of N during flowering because I understand it's leaves that produce flowers. Why anyone would sit there and watch their lower leaves prematurely drop is beyond me.
> UB


This is exactly what is happening to me. I use Techniflora products (attached picture), BC Boost/Bloom, Sugar Daddy, MagiCal and Awesome Blossom during flowering. I am not sure what the ratios are, just by adding up the N-P-K values marked on each product it adds up to 9-16-21. Is this an accurate way to find the overall NPK values? 

Anyway I have been wondering how to slow down or stop the lower fan leaves from dying so early. By week 5 all the lower fan leaves are yellow and the upper leaves are starting to yellow. I am not sure if the flowering mix doesnt provide enough N or whether I'm experiencing a pH problem and nutrients are being locked out. I measured my soil runoff at 6.0. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated 

Picture of my white rhino week 5 flowering


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## Mr Bomb (Nov 26, 2009)

the357ink said:


> imo, a healthy plant can take the vicious amounts of bloom boosters that you give it. Thats why the veg period is important. you wanna build strong roots, health, etc. to prepare it for the _*stressful attack of flowering.*_


 I think I have finally found it. This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2009)

jjf1978 said:


> This is exactly what is happening to me. I use Techniflora products (attached picture), BC Boost/Bloom, Sugar Daddy, MagiCal and Awesome Blossom during flowering. I am not sure what the ratios are, just by adding up the N-P-K values marked on each product it adds up to 9-16-21. Is this an accurate way to find the overall NPK values?


If you used equal amounts of the 4 products, add, and then divide by 4. It should give you the NPK values that your plants "see". It's quite obvious by your photos they're are not getting enough N. It's time to react.



> Anyway I have been wondering how to slow down or stop the lower fan leaves from dying so early.


See the above response.  That means switching to a high N food like a 30-10-10 or a 9-3-6. You have a choice - either go with The Herd's affinity for Bloom foods label hype, or give your plants what they _require_ to remain healthy and productive. 

Your call,
UB






[/QUOTE]


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2009)

MostlyCrazy said:


> You got it right UB! Reading the plant is where it's at. Roseman lead me to this thread and I will change my usual way of doing things and add more N as I transition. I use the GH Flora line and usually go with a 1-2-3 mix in flower right at 12/12.


You're almost there, but not quite. A plant transitions because of hormonal changes, phytochrome, not because you have changed foods. It does not go hand in hand. You are here to support the plant's processes, throughout flowering, not some point in time. A plant makes it's own food and doesn't need our help other than giving it what it needs to maintain leaves in a green and healthy condition until harvest. Forget the bud and the ads, concentrate on the leaves.

UB


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## riddleme (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben

have posted a few pics here 
https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/276324-nutes-budget.html
that I hope show what you are talking about, good, lush leaf development

Thank you so much for being here and sharing what you do/know


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## Roseman (Nov 26, 2009)

Happy thanskgiving, friends!


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## jjf1978 (Nov 26, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> See the above response.  That means switching to a high N food like a 30-10-10 or a 9-3-6. You have a choice - either go with The Herd's affinity for Bloom foods label hype, or give your plants what they _require_ to remain healthy and productive.
> 
> Your call,
> UB


I greatly appreciate your response UB! I'm going to go use the fertilizer I have and mix up a 9-3-6 or somewhere similar with a high N ratio and feed them. I'll administer it once and see how they react and then maybe again until I'm satisfied. Thanks so much!


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## MostlyCrazy (Nov 26, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're almost there, but not quite. A plant transitions because of hormonal changes, phytochrome, not because you have changed foods. It does not go hand in hand. You are here to support the plant's processes, throughout flowering, not some point in time. A plant makes it's own food and doesn't need our help other than giving it what it needs to maintain leaves in a green and healthy condition until harvest. Forget the bud and the ads, concentrate on the leaves.
> 
> UB


 
Thanks for the response. I get that the leaves are important even in flowering. I understand also that they are the fuel tank of proper bud development. Good roots, good leaves, good buds. Food is but one element but a key element. Since I've been gardening for over 30 year but not this plant I learned to watch the plant heath from my Grandpa. How did he know when to give them some extra rain water! LOL! Funny how some bit of information can trigger the "Oh, now I get it" response. LOL! Thanks again!


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## PainWrek (Nov 26, 2009)

this is a bad-ass thread.... very informative uncle ben. thank you..


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## First Time Growin (Nov 26, 2009)

Hey Uncle Ben, I am in flowering and am wondering if my formula has a good NPK ratio... 
My bloom nute is a two part formula(Dutch Nutrient Formula aka DNF), Part A = 3-0-3 Part B = 1-0.5-3

Looking forward to hearing back from you, 
FTG.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2009)

riddleme said:


> Hey Uncle Ben
> 
> have posted a few pics here
> https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/276324-nutes-budget.html
> ...


You're welcome, and nice going!



Roseman said:


> Happy thanskgiving, friends!


Back atcha! Hope you had a good one.



jjf1978 said:


> I greatly appreciate your response UB! I'm going to go use the fertilizer I have and mix up a 9-3-6 or somewhere similar with a high N ratio and feed them. I'll administer it once and see how they react and then maybe again until I'm satisfied. Thanks so much!


Give 'em time to react. This aint an overnight thang. 



MostlyCrazy said:


> Thanks for the response. I get that the leaves are important even in flowering.


The leaves (and the health of the root system) are the ONLY thing that matters during flowering. I hope you guys are getting it, eh?



> I understand also that they are the fuel tank of proper bud development. Good roots, good leaves, good buds. Food is but one element but a key element.


Good food production, simple/complex carbos produced by photosynthesis, is THE key element and must be optimized by understanding what it takes to dial in ALL of the cultural factors.



> Since I've been gardening for over 30 year but not this plant I learned to watch the plant heath from my Grandpa. How did he know when to give them some extra rain water! LOL! Funny how some bit of information can trigger the "Oh, now I get it" response. LOL! Thanks again!


Glad you smacked your forehead with the palm of your hand, hah!



First Time Growin said:


> Hey Uncle Ben, I am in flowering and am wondering if my formula has a good NPK ratio...
> My bloom nute is a two part formula(Dutch Nutrient Formula aka DNF), Part A = 3-0-3 Part B = 1-0.5-3
> 
> Looking forward to hearing back from you,
> FTG.


If in equal amounts that would be a 2-0.25-3? Kinda light overall regarding value, but especially in the P department regarding NPK and it doesn't address the micros. I'd feel mo betta if you were around a 2-2-3.


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## Stgeneziz (Nov 27, 2009)

It's posts like this one that remind me that i'm growing a *PLANT*,not operating a magic pot machine!!! Although, growing with hydro, sometimes I feel that way.... can't tell you the countless products i've researched and considered purchasing after reading, *"New must have additive!!"*, somewhere on the web. It's hard to discern ad campaign from fact!! Good thing Im not rich, or I would have had a Library of exciting sounding mystery liquids. Good info + rep.






Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...


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## Roseman (Nov 27, 2009)

To me, nutrients are about like Washing Powders for clothes. They brag new and improved and Tide is supposed to be so much better than GAIN, but the only difference is the PRICE.


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## Stgeneziz (Nov 28, 2009)

trust me, I had my finger on the buy it now button a wee or two ago to get new, more expensive nutes. Then I said to myself "wait, what you have already works" it's me that needs to get better as a grower, not the nutes. IMO.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 29, 2009)

Stgeneziz said:


> It's posts like this one that remind me that i'm growing a *PLANT*,not operating a magic pot machine!!! Although, growing with hydro, sometimes I feel that way.... can't tell you the countless products i've researched and considered purchasing after reading, *"New must have additive!!"*, somewhere on the web. It's hard to discern ad campaign from fact!! Good thing Im not rich, or I would have had a Library of exciting sounding mystery liquids. Good info + rep.


It's a racket. I just addressed your excellent point in another thread.


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## seasmoke (Dec 1, 2009)

WoW!! I just read this whole thread, with a few trips to the "ROOM", and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I just couldn't figure out what was going on....I am getting yellow leaves, and they fall off and spots on all of my plants that are in their final three weeks...thats when I stop fertilizing them, giving them only mollasses and water....great diet, eh?

Uncle Ben, I am using Miracle-gro all purpose plant food 24-8-16 during vegging and MG 15-30-15 for flower, but as I said I stop the last 3 weeks, Should I fert longer? I know you don't touch the stuff,but its about all I can get here, (I will probably try the stuff your using if I can find it) that, and Scotts 1-3-1(or something like that) To be honest, I don't know the difference between a Scotts 1-2-3# and a MG 15-20-15#....I do know N-P-K, but not how those two compare...(just drop the "0")??



Also, The stuff thats 4 weeks in look good, BUT, i'm seeing the very, very tips turn yellow. One plant, has three leaves in different areas that the margins have turned yellow as well. Is this when I should give them the veg fertz?


Other than comments like garbage, junk,and poo, anyone care to lend honest thoughts on MG fertilizer, its all i've used and don't know any different...


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## seasmoke (Dec 1, 2009)

seasmoke said:


> WoW!! I just read this whole thread, with a few trips to the "ROOM", and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I just couldn't figure out what was going on....I am getting yellow leaves, and they fall off and spots on all of my plants that are in their final three weeks...thats when I stop fertilizing them, giving them only mollasses and water....great diet, eh?
> 
> Uncle Ben, I am using Miracle-gro all purpose plant food 24-8-16 during vegging and MG 15-30-15 for flower, but as I said I stop the last 3 weeks, Should I fert longer? I know you don't touch the stuff,but its about all I can get here, (I will probably try the stuff your using if I can find it) that, and Scotts 1-3-1(or something like that) To be honest, I don't know the difference between a Scotts 1-2-3# and a MG 15-20-15#....I do know N-P-K, but not how those two compare...(just drop the "0")??
> 
> ...


I found this in your tips and tweeks thread:

UB:
I don't do movements nor believe in them. I only practice common sense and for anyone to believe you're doing the plant any good by giving it pure water 2-3 weeks prior and up to harvest is nuts, and/or, they've never smoked homegrown, or Mexican, or Colombian field grown pot which isn't "flushed". As I've said before, I think "flushing" was founded by Dutch growers to atone for their sins of over-fertilizing throughout the life the plant. And of course you'll have the "what about taste?" mantra. If you want taste, smoke a Swisher Sweet. 

Everyone wants to push their plants and make this growing thing so damn complicated. A plant isn't like a radiator, nothing is flushed out. Use judicious foods until harvest to maintain the health of the leaves, don't worry about bud production, forget the bud.


So, The reason i'm getting yellowing and leaf fall-off during the last 3 weeks is because I stopped feeding,...well thats what I get for following sheep.
Ben, you are the man. BTW, the ratio I use with the MG is 2 tablespoons per 5 gal, 1-2 gal per plant, plants in 5-6 gal buckets. I feed around 7-10 days...guess i'll feed till harvest


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## retardigraded (Dec 1, 2009)

I've got a couple of plants in flower right now that are starting to look N deficient and drop leaves well before they should. I've been feeding them only low doses of N because I was afraid of messing with my buds. I'm glad I found this post so I can feel good about giving my ladies what they really need.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 2, 2009)

seasmoke said:


> So, The reason i'm getting yellowing and leaf fall-off during the last 3 weeks is because I stopped feeding,...well thats what I get for following sheep.


Yep, that's why. Regarding the sheep comment, I have a way of putting the need to conform, albeit bluntly - "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong."



> Ben, you are the man. BTW, the ratio I use with the MG is 2 tablespoons per 5 gal, 1-2 gal per plant, plants in 5-6 gal buckets. I feed around 7-10 days...guess i'll feed till harvest


That's fine, as long as they are also getting NPK and the micros.


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## dbo24242 (Dec 2, 2009)

Roseman said:


> Uncle Ben,
> 
> I try to read eveyrthing you post and skip the inbetween BS posts argueing with you.
> (Like on that Lolipopping thread)
> ...



nice post, *takes out GH Micro*


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## plaguedog (Dec 2, 2009)

spiked1 said:


> Saltpetre (US Saltpeter)
> Potassium Nitrate NPK = 13-0-38
> If I added this to my Guano Bloom It would be NPK 14-9-39
> I'm not sure that would be a good thing.
> Any other way to increase Potassium while keeping it Organic?



Not sure if anyone answered but another decent source of K is sea kelp or something like maxicrop liquid or powdered form. And greensand takes a LONG time to break down and actually be useful. It's good when you mix up the soil and let it cook or are reusing your soil mix. I use guanos, ewc and sea kelp (in teas) mainly for feeding so if you have that guano add some maxicrop or something even cheaper like algamin kelp meal that is like 8 bucks for a 5 pound bag that goes along way.

This is a great thread btw, I have always used my high N guano(sea bird) with my higher P guano all the way through flower (last two weeks I just use EWC tea with some molasses) and have had some nice results. No dead yellow leaves exept a few that naturally go as the plants life cycle ends.


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## seasmoke (Dec 2, 2009)

"A thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong"

LOL!! Still ....they're eating shit............


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## 400Whps (Dec 2, 2009)

im putting this in my wife's book of quotes:"A thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong"


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## seasmoke (Dec 2, 2009)

Hold on, hold on, hold on...UB. If I keep feeding them MG till harvest, won't I be smoking MG fertz?? Please explain how I won't be(did i miss something??) smoking the fertz that I gave them 2weeks ago right before I harvest? I mean, I like to smoke some of this as a sample while it cures... My "Partner" got all pissy just the thought of feeding them till harvest, complaining he didn't want to smoke fertz and that I wouldn't want my wife to either. scared the shit out of my wife,whom i'm growing it for,...long story, med pat.) and i'm standing on a fence. 

Believe it or not, this started a fight..................

I already gave them fertz yesterday, got home today lights were out. i'll check tomorrow for improvements. Christ why the hell do people get so touchy?...


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## MostlyCrazy (Dec 2, 2009)

Cause they need their med! LOL!


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## dbo24242 (Dec 3, 2009)

seasmoke said:


> Hold on, hold on, hold on...UB. If I keep feeding them MG till harvest, won't I be smoking MG fertz?? Please explain how I won't be(did i miss something??) smoking the fertz that I gave them 2weeks ago right before I harvest? I mean, I like to smoke some of this as a sample while it cures... My "Partner" got all pissy just the thought of feeding them till harvest, complaining he didn't want to smoke fertz and that I wouldn't want my wife to either. scared the shit out of my wife,whom i'm growing it for,...long story, med pat.) and i'm standing on a fence.
> 
> Believe it or not, this started a fight..................
> 
> I already gave them fertz yesterday, got home today lights were out. i'll check tomorrow for improvements. Christ why the hell do people get so touchy?...


If she doesn't want the MG bud just buy some better fertilizers or organic setups its not that hard. Better just go organic if thats the issue.
Also sounds like your partner is brewing troubles; you should lose the baggage and fly solo.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 3, 2009)

Here's an interesting discussion that kinda ties into this stuff.

https://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/213108-advanced-stealth-hydro-bubbeponics-thread-54.html


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 3, 2009)

seasmoke said:


> Hold on, hold on, hold on...UB. If I keep feeding them MG till harvest, won't I be smoking MG fertz?? Please explain how I won't be(did i miss something??) smoking the fertz that I gave them 2weeks ago right before I harvest? I mean, I like to smoke some of this as a sample while it cures... My "Partner" got all pissy just the thought of feeding them till harvest, complaining he didn't want to smoke fertz and that I wouldn't want my wife to either. scared the shit out of my wife,whom i'm growing it for,...long story, med pat.) and i'm standing on a fence.
> 
> Believe it or not, this started a fight..................


I can believe it. Folks hold their FEELINGS strongly against their chests. Gonna pass on some wisdom that I picked up during attendance at a self improvement class, and then get back on track. It applies, reason why I'm bringing it up. 

Most times in life we go about out biz allowing our feelings to dictate our behavior and attitudes. When someone says something, or you are thinking something that you're not comfortable with, that is foreign to you perhaps, ask this question, "is this a feeling or a fact?" "Facts before feelings" should be your credo.

I hope you're smoking cellulose, of which chemicals i.e. salts support/produce. When a plant uptakes fertilizers, salts, it is no longer potassium nitrate, it is broken down into ions and combined with CO2, H, etc. to form hydrocarbons, proteins, enzymes, ho moans, etc. If you have been pushing your plants with too much salts, then yes, the tissue may feel gritty, hard..... but I know of no bonafide studies that show that there might be a health issue. So, my approach is to keep the plant healthy until harvest. "Flushing" is a feel-good thing, it is based on feelings, not facts. Subjective, personal sensory opines such as using taste to justify some pot forum paradigm is baloney. A plant is not a radiator such that you open up a tap and "rinse" it out, not matter how much vendors selling snake oils i.e. Clearex want you to believe. They are using YOUR feelings to sell THEIR products. The cannabis racket is designed to focus on growers' dreams and feelings. 



> Christ why the hell do people get so touchy?...


Cause they _feel_ that way.


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## seasmoke (Dec 3, 2009)

on the right- leaf from plant 4 weeks in
on the left-plant with 1 1/2 week to go,no nutes for 2 weeks, just water.


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## redredwine (Dec 3, 2009)

quick Q uncle ben..... im a noob trying t decide between three flowering foods at my local store. one is 5-1-1, one is 10-30-10 and the other idk the specs but its mg bloom booster which i know alot of people hate on. its my first grow and im 33 days into flowering and i havnt used any bloom nutes so far, tho i know i should pro be doing so. any suggestion?


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## Stgeneziz (Dec 3, 2009)

Flushing is such a hot topic, along with 24/0 vs. 18/6, and I think some ppl are getting it all wrong when it comes to their plants. It took me 5 months to get to this point, but the less I fuss over my plants, the better they do. Ive been smokn for many years and have tasted good smoke, and harsh nasty bud. I think it has more to do with how u dry and cure ur buds, than the ferts u were using to feed the plants just MHO.


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## MostlyCrazy (Dec 3, 2009)

On the flush I thnk it has a lot to do with how heavy you use the nutes. I nute heavy, flush for a week and trim it up tight and I can smoke my bud when it's barely dry. Don't get me wrong, it still taste green but it's not hacking green.


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## alexuk (Dec 4, 2009)

redredwine said:


> quick Q uncle ben..... im a noob trying t decide between three flowering foods at my local store. one is 5-1-1, one is 10-30-10 and the other idk the specs but its mg bloom booster which i know alot of people hate on. its my first grow and im 33 days into flowering and i havnt used any bloom nutes so far, tho i know i should pro be doing so. any suggestion?


i think the 10-30-10 would be best as plants dont need as much N in blooming and they do in veg but need more P


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## redredwine (Dec 5, 2009)

alexuk said:


> i think the 10-30-10 would be best as plants dont need as much N in blooming and they do in veg but need more P


thats what i thought but i have heard from a lot of people on here to use Alaskan fish emulsion which is 5-1-1 and they say it works very well


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## Roseman (Dec 5, 2009)

*Flushing?*

In the book GROW GREAT MARIJUANA by Logan Edward, he says if you manicure the buds very closely, and remove every leaf, then there is no need to Flush, because the mineral-fertilizer-nutrient taste is not stored in the pistals, or calyxes or buds or flowers, but only in the leaves.

I stand by I did flush my first grow and not the next 6 grows and I can not tell any differencce. I now do not ever flush, I do manicure very close and I never get any mineral-fertilizer taste in my buds.


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## 400Whps (Dec 5, 2009)

Roseman said:


> *Flushing?*
> 
> In the book GROW GREAT MARIJUANA by Logan Edward, he says if you manicure the buds very closely, and remove every leaf, then there is no need to Flush, because the mineral-fertilizer-nutrient taste is not stored in the pistals, or calyxes or buds or flowers, but only in the leaves.
> 
> I stand by I did flush my first grow and not the next 6 grows and I can not tell any differencce. I now do not ever flush, I do manicure very close and I never get any mineral-fertilizer taste in my buds.


why i tell people not to smoke their shake! make hash or bud butter it will go alot further.
Ill still flush just to be safe and save on nutes, i dont need a healthy green plant on chop day, id preffer flushing for a week and then depriving of water the last week. this makes trimming/drying/curing faster. btw i was taught that by an old friend whose grown for years in BC Canada and am very happy to hear it being used.unfourtunatly he doesnt grow anymore.i hate when talented growers have to stop,waste of talent!
everyone has their ways


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2009)

seasmoke said:


> on the right- leaf from plant 4 weeks in
> on the left-plant with 1 1/2 week to go,no nutes for 2 weeks, just water.


Well, what else would you expect? It's just another case of leaf necrosis.



redredwine said:


> quick Q uncle ben..... im a noob trying t decide between three flowering foods at my local store. one is 5-1-1, one is 10-30-10 and the other idk the specs but its mg bloom booster which i know alot of people hate on. its my first grow and im 33 days into flowering and i havnt used any bloom nutes so far, tho i know i should pro be doing so. any suggestion?



For starts, 5-1-1 is not a bloom food. Get a handle on plant nutrition and you won't have to ask such questions. 

You use whatever formula keeps the leaves green and healthy. If a 3-9-6 will do it, fine, use it.

UB


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## seasmoke (Dec 6, 2009)

UB, I fed them 2x now and I can see improvements. The leaves are returnig to green and are much softer now. The entire plants are standing to attention. Many thanks.


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## redredwine (Dec 6, 2009)

For starts, 5-1-1 is not a bloom food. Get a handle on plant nutrition and you won't have to ask such questions. 

You use whatever formula keeps the leaves green and healthy. If a 3-9-6 will do it, fine, use it.

UB[/QUOTE]

thats what i thought, i know you want a good balance with a higher p count, but everytime i postted on here asking for a good bloom food, some one would recomend alaskan fish emulsion, which is 5-1-1


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## seasmoke (Dec 6, 2009)

The MG Bloom booster is 15-30-15. I use it, have been using it. I just don't use it full strength....Who made3 the 10-30-10?


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## Roseman (Dec 6, 2009)

*Nitrogen in Flowering

*I flowered for a few weeks on high phosperous Bloom Nutes only, and everyday, I came home and picked up 3 or 5 leaves from each plant, that had yellowed and fell off. All of them came from the lower 1/3 of the plant. I had a large shoe box and a half full of dried dead leaves from 9 plants, although two plants were seriously small runts..

After a few weeks, I started adding a very fractional part of VEG nutes high in nitrogen to my Flowering Nutes. I started as an experiment on one of three reservoirs, and after 4 or 5 days, I add N to the other two tanks. Since the 2nd day of adding the very slightest amount of Nitrogen, NOT ONE leaf yellowed and died off.
I also saw extra growth on my buds too. The plants seemed healthier and happier and more green and lush, they had a bigger thirst or appetite for water too, and I will always add a very slight amount of extra Nitrogen to my Flowering Cycle in every grow I do in the future.

BUT to be 100% honest and tell you everything I have observed, 

on the other side of the coin, 

I am contemplating and thinking that it might be natural, or normal, or even beneficial for the lower third of the plant to lose those leaves so that LIGHT can penetrate deeper into the plant. My plants are so thick in leaves, well, I've never seen anything like it. A half inch from the bottom of each plant's stump or trunk are buds and leaves galore, thicker than I could imagine. The foilage is much much thicker than on any plant I have ever seen.


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## Roseman (Dec 6, 2009)

I did not write this, but I sure like it.


Contributed by: *vaaran*
Submitted: November 15th, 2004

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds. 

*Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:*

The nutrient uptake process is explained in _this faq_. 

A good read about plant nutrition can be found _here_.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment. 

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis. 

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only &#8216;chemical&#8217; ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

*Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:*

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins. 

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon. 

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

*Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:*

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

*Storage organelles:*

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though. 

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

*Translocation:*

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth. 

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc. 

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don&#8217;t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved. 

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth. 

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.

http://muextension.missouri.edu

*Summary:*

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn&#8217;t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn&#8217;t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.


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## MostlyCrazy (Dec 6, 2009)

Very interesting thread and just full of information that makes you think! Thinking is good, right? LOL!


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## owl (Dec 6, 2009)

holy cock and balls; i figure that i have a good understanding on growing cannabis and then i see a thread like this.

to clarify, it is suggested to avoid the yellowing of the leaves and avoid "pre-harvest" flushing?

i have read so many threads and so many people flushing their plants out and allowing the yellowing of leaves.

now that i read this thread, it makes sense, but damn...

i did all my "studying" (and still "study") in the Cannabis Culture message board and just now started exploring this message board - i'm fucking impressed


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## Roseman (Dec 7, 2009)

MostlyCrazy said:


> Very interesting thread and just full of information that makes you think! Thinking is good, right? LOL!


I agree THINKING is good, but I also admit to medicating myself everynight to NOT THINK.


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## Stgeneziz (Dec 7, 2009)

If thinkng is good, how come it always gets me into trouble?! I'm the same way roseman, it really helps with my insomnia. Zzz Zzz


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## Roseman (Dec 7, 2009)

Stgeneziz said:


> If thinkng is good, how come it always gets me into trouble?! I'm the same way roseman, it really helps with my insomnia. Zzz Zzz


you are probably not old enough to remember this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRNRVe0kgC0 < THUNK by Jefferson Airplane


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## Stgeneziz (Dec 7, 2009)

Roseman said:


> you are probably not old enough to remember this:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRNRVe0kgC0 < THUNK by Jefferson Airplane


Never done me no good.....


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## MostlyCrazy (Dec 7, 2009)

I use my plants to calm my ass down so I can think! No couch lock needed just that mellow fellow feel. LOL!

Peace is what I seek!


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## kwon (Dec 19, 2009)

I read through the whole post and haven't started to grow yet but I will definitely use these principles during my grow. Thanks UB!


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## KingCobra40z (Dec 26, 2009)

I recently read a benefit for allowing leaves to yellow during flowing that I hadn't read before. It comes from the following book: http://www.amazon.com/How-Grow-Marijuana-Indoors-Medicinal/dp/0930180151/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261859801&sr=8-1

Q. Will trimming off the large shade leaves allow more light to reach the lower buds and make them larger?
A. The argument sounds good but it takes more than light to produce growth. The large leaves which formed when the plant was in a vegetative state contain plant sugars which are reabsorbed when the leaves wither and die in the later bloom cycle. Bloom fertilizers usually contain low levels of nitrogen. With the absence of nitrogen the fan leaves will start dying and falling off on their own by mid blooms. This is the best of both worlds. It allows more light to reach the lower buds and *allows the plant to recover some of the energy it devoted to growing the shade leaves.*


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## MostlyCrazy (Dec 26, 2009)

I don't remove a leaf until it falls off on it's own. That way you get all it had to give to the grow. Instead of cutting the fan leaves you can also tuck them below the bud you want to encourage.


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## riddleme (Dec 26, 2009)

> I recently read a benefit for allowing leaves to yellow during flowing that I hadn't read before. It comes from the following book: http://www.amazon.com/How-Grow-Marij...1859801&sr=8-1
> 
> Q. Will trimming off the large shade leaves allow more light to reach the lower buds and make them larger?
> A. The argument sounds good but it takes more than light to produce growth. The large leaves which formed when the plant was in a vegetative state contain plant sugars which are reabsorbed when the leaves wither and die in the later bloom cycle. Bloom fertilizers usually contain low levels of nitrogen. With the absence of nitrogen the fan leaves will start dying and falling off on their own by mid blooms. This is the best of both worlds. It allows more light to reach the lower buds and *allows the plant to recover some of the energy it devoted to growing the shade leaves.*


Yeah but that book is from 96 and only has a 3 star review??? 

both grow opinions exist
keep em green and let em yellow, 

folks will defend both 
you could always do a side by side to learn for yourself

I'm a keep em green guy, that's why I follow UB


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## MostlyCrazy (Dec 26, 2009)

Trying to keep them green by not lowering the grow nutes this grow and so far so good. A little concerned that it may delay budding but it's too early to tell yet. NO leaf loss so far in the transition and that's very unusual for me.


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## riddleme (Dec 26, 2009)

Not seeing any delay in budding (check my journal) and buds are formin nicely as expected under one cfl 

using Jack's Classic which I learned about from UB


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## businessmen (Dec 26, 2009)

Ive always been one to keep my leaves green as well. I think its easier in soil, I dont feed any N during bloom, other then small amounts in my micro blend, and this time using some molasses. But theres enough in the soil, and the plant to make it thru without yellow leaves. I dont need them dark army green, but I understand that sunleaves give the plant its energy to grow buds. 

My fear of giving more N during bloom is that excess would certainly decrease its flowering. So I "give it what it needs", and it doesnt need any more N, cus it stays green... Its more difficult to tell how much P-K they need. IMO you dont see they need more till they are very deficient. So I wanna make sure they have plenty.

I also would like to point out the fact that everyone gets so caught up in the numbers of the NPK, but its the ratio thats more important. A 10-50-10 is the same as a 1-5-1, its how much and often you use it. And also what form of N and how available the nutrients are. 

I use fish emulsion 5-1-1 during veg and a bit off micros, and 0-10-10 during bloom. This growt Im using bat guano 0.5-12-0.2 early bloom and a bit of molasses at veg and bloom. Also I mix a bit of 5-5-5 into the soil before planting. 

I like organics for a few reasons, but my fear in potting soil is that they might not be readily available to plants like chems are. In native soil, microbes break them down and turn them into usable plant food. But potting soil Im not so sure. Potting soil is mostly wood and peat, things that microbes would also have to break down to turn into plant food.... Its the whole nitrogen/carbon cycle...


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## MostlyCrazy (Dec 26, 2009)

Thinking along the same lines as you Businessmen. I'm in learn mode as this is my first time pushing N in bloom. In hydro things happen faster as you know. Res change is like the reseet button to a point.

I do have a question. I have a sample bottle of Bontanicare Sweet (8 oz) and I was planning on using it for weeks 4-6 on this flower (that will use that bottle up). Says it helps with transporation and helps keep the N in the res available. I'm thinking of keeping my micro high, adding the sweet and see what happens as far as plant health. Good idea or bad?


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## thewinghunter (Dec 27, 2009)

Uncle Ben just curious, i have 2 plants that are beuaitful full buds but not very tall and not getting any taller... i had a yellowing plant that i decided to up the N for the hell of it, and all of a suddent bud tripled. So even tho in flower they need the N still it seems? so should i up the N on the nice green dense bud that just never got tall? to see if that wuld stimulate a huge bud?

just curious, bc otherwise those 2 look beautiful just not as high as the other plants I have. actually rather short


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## wyteboi (Dec 27, 2009)

MostlyCrazy said:


> Thinking is good, right? LOL!



im not so sure of that anymore, i did way better before all this "stuff" started in my head , i have thoughts, i wonder about stuff sometimes and other crazy things going on in my brain that i dont understand.

My buddy bubbles told me it was normal and its called "Thinking, stuff that your brain has never done before"
so im not sure i like this "thinking" thing

Merry Christmas and Happy new year all!!
wb


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## murtymaker (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm using Advanced Nutrients, I see they have a SensiCalMg for the bloom phase. Is this what I should add to my base and additive collection? This product if used right will leave my plants green throughout the bloom cycle? Thanks.
http://www.advancednutrients.com/landing_pages/sensi_cal_bloom_landing.html


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2009)

thewinghunter said:


> Uncle Ben just curious, i have 2 plants that are beuaitful full buds but not very tall and not getting any taller... i had a yellowing plant that i decided to up the N for the hell of it, and all of a suddent bud tripled. So even tho in flower they need the N still it seems?


Yes

Maintaining leaves, which drive bud development, seems to be a foreign concept in forums. Wean yourself off the bloom foods and learn what makes a plant tick.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2009)

murtymaker said:


> I'm using Advanced Nutrients, I see they have a SensiCalMg for the bloom phase. Is this what I should add to my base and additive collection? This product if used right will leave my plants green throughout the bloom cycle? Thanks.
> http://www.advancednutrients.com/landing_pages/sensi_cal_bloom_landing.html


Looks like it will leave your pocketbook lighter as well as your leaves' color. Being that it has the buzzword "sensi" in it, it's gotta be good.

UB


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## rips run (Dec 28, 2009)

u ben ,i am running a 6 part nut ,, and have noticed yellowing ,, then when i switch to 12/12 ,i drop the #3 it is potossium/nitrate ,,should i add a little to the the total bloom mix, or add it to the flush ,,the veg mix calls for 5/6 of a tea spoon per 10 liters ,and none in the bloom 

thx


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## murtymaker (Dec 28, 2009)

Wait, haha sorry I'm confused, I know it's expensive that's why my pocketbook will be lighter, but isn't having my leaves' color lighter a bad thing? I thought we were aiming for darker leaves throughout... no? Sorry I'm an idiot 




Uncle Ben said:


> Looks like it will leave your pocketbook lighter as well as your leaves' color. Being that it has the buzzword "sensi" in it, it's gotta be good.
> 
> UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 29, 2009)

murtymaker said:


> Wait, haha sorry I'm confused, I know it's expensive that's why my pocketbook will be lighter, but isn't having my leaves' color lighter a bad thing? I thought we were aiming for darker leaves throughout... no? Sorry I'm an idiot


My point was I was against it because it will make your leaves lighter. It will not maintain chlorophyll. Without chlorophyll, you'll have no photosynthesis going on.

Keep 'em green,
Uncle Ben


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## grrower (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks uncle ben, you may have saved me from a serious fert issue when i begin to flower.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 29, 2009)

grrower said:


> Thanks uncle ben, you may have saved me from a serious fert issue when i begin to flower.


Good. Your only goal as you finish up your growing cycle is to maintain leaves in a healthy, green condition. If that means giving them a 30-10-10 up to harvest, then that's what you do. N does NOT interfere with the flowering response, unless you're giving your plant pure N in the form of ammonium nitrate, such that the N creates a antagonistic condition of elements like K and Ca.

http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

It's all relative. Folks think that my increasing the application of say....a 4-10-12, they're giving their plants more N. They are not understanding how the parts add up to the whole. They are actually decreasing the levels of N that the plant will use, or "sees".

UB


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## mikegreenthumb (Jan 3, 2010)

do you flush uncle ???


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

mikegreenthumb said:


> do you flush uncle ???


No..........


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## Straight up G (Jan 4, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...


So I am using bio bizz bloom big 2*-*6*-*3.5 thats ok isn't it*?*


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 4, 2010)

Straight up G said:


> So I am using bio bizz bloom big 2*-*6*-*3.5 thats ok isn't it*?*


It's OK until you start seeing premature leaf drop.


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## Straight up G (Jan 4, 2010)

I have just "finished" an autoflower grow where pre flower yellowing began from the bottom up but eventually covering the whole 2 plants they leaves went completly brittle and dry and they shrunk to about a centimeter and died..


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## murtymaker (Jan 4, 2010)

Ben... what hydro nute combo do you advise? My Base is the Connoisseur A and B from Advanced Nutrients. Should I add anything else to this or no? 

Part A is 4.9 - 0.0 - 3.6
Part B is 1.8 - 5.1 - 6.4

Total is 6.7 - 5.1 - 10

This seems like a good mix on it's own already without adding any other Bloom enhancers like Bigbud and what not... Maybe just some voodoo juice to blossom the roots out. Any advise on the matter? Cheers


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## mikegreenthumb (Jan 4, 2010)

how does it affect taste if it does at all ( the not flushing) ub ?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 5, 2010)

murtymaker said:


> Ben... what hydro nute combo do you advise? My Base is the Connoisseur A and B from Advanced Nutrients. Should I add anything else to this or no?
> 
> Part A is 4.9 - 0.0 - 3.6
> Part B is 1.8 - 5.1 - 6.4
> ...


Try it and see. I assume that you're flowering? Also, you didn't say what the micros are. Root production is put on the back burner once flowering commences. If you didn't get a good root system come 12/12, you never will. 



mikegreenthumb said:


> how does it affect taste if it does at all ( the not flushing) ub ?


Do the experiment.


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## mikegreenthumb (Jan 5, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Try it and see. I assume that you're flowering? Also, you didn't say what the micros are. Root production is put on the back burner once flowering commences. If you didn't get a good root system come 12/12, you never will.
> 
> 
> 
> Do the experiment.


im going to, seeing as you havent steered me wrong so far


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## bigman4270 (Jan 5, 2010)

Just finished reading the thread and once again science wins. There is no room for feelings or marketing hype in the plant world. 

I have always been a facts kind of guy and your answers are supported by Fact's. I went to the libreary and checked out a book called "_Botany- A functional approach" by Walter H Muller. _I am trying to understand what makes the plant tick and how best to meet their needs that you speak of. 

Anyway, glad your here for the help. I am sure I will be calling on you when needed.

Peace,

Big


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## jjmd (Jan 5, 2010)

At present I am using Dyna-gro products, Grow and Bloom. 
Grow 7-9-5
Bloom 3-12-6

When I go to the Bloom mix I get yellowing. If I mix these what would then be my P-K-N? 10-21-11? or does it go to the highest count of each of the products? 7-12-6. Also if I wanted to just bump up just the P content what do you recomend as an aditive?


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## Great Oden's Raven (Jan 5, 2010)

Hey UB. 
I'm pretty new to this stuff  This is a great post. I've been reading along, and I've learned a bit. I recently started using GH Flora Series in soil with amazing results in vegetative growth. The bloom phase suggestions on the instructions would have me raise the P a bit and lower the N...exactly like what you are warning against. Should I just ignore this and keep the veg formula throughout blooming? Do you know anything about General Hydroponics brand? I've heard great things about them, but I'd like to hear your expert opinion.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2010)

bigman4270 said:


> I have always been a facts kind of guy and your answers are supported by Fact's. I went to the libreary and checked out a book called "_Botany- A functional approach" by Walter H Muller. _I am trying to understand what makes the plant tick and how best to meet their needs that you speak of.


You're on your way to becoming a master gardener. 



jjmd said:


> At present I am using Dyna-gro products, Grow and Bloom.
> Grow 7-9-5
> Bloom 3-12-6
> 
> When I go to the Bloom mix I get yellowing.


Then you need to go back to a 9-3-6.



> If I mix these what would then be my P-K-N? 10-21-11?


If 50/50, you'll get a 5-10-5



Great Oden's Raven said:


> Hey UB.
> I'm pretty new to this stuff  This is a great post. I've been reading along, and I've learned a bit. I recently started using GH Flora Series in soil with amazing results in vegetative growth. The bloom phase suggestions on the instructions would have me raise the P a bit and lower the N...exactly like what you are warning against. Should I just ignore this and keep the veg formula throughout blooming? Do you know anything about General Hydroponics brand? I've heard great things about them, but I'd like to hear your expert opinion.


As I've pointed out in numerous other threads, I wouldn't touch GH. Their NPK values are screwed up, micros aren't there with some products. If it's working for you, then go for it.

UB


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## TejasRenegade (Jan 6, 2010)

I'm in dirt...but I have a problem...a bit into flowering they went back into veg and started growing a bunch of new stuff...after a couple of days they went back to flowering....what effect will that have on my flowers if any?


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## mikegreenthumb (Jan 6, 2010)

TejasRenegade said:


> I'm in dirt...but I have a problem...a bit into flowering they went back into veg and started growing a bunch of new stuff...after a couple of days they went back to flowering....what effect will that have on my flowers if any?


they most likely didnt go back to veg they grew new vegitation to help flowering your buds need those bud leave to help photocenthisis (not spelled right)


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## jjmd (Jan 6, 2010)

Thanks for the FYI UncleBen


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## TreesAsMedicine (Jan 6, 2010)

Nice! Great to learn that.


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## TejasRenegade (Jan 6, 2010)

TreesAsMedicine said:


> Nice! Great to learn that.


 
Thanks...I need all the help I can get!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2010)

mikegreenthumb said:


> they most likely didnt go back to veg they grew new vegitation to help flowering your buds need those bud leave to help photocenthisis (not spelled right)


I agree....


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## seasmoke (Jan 7, 2010)

Botany-A functional approach-Walter H Muller....Wow, thats an old book...


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## wyteboi (Jan 7, 2010)

"My mix"
"I'm typical. If it ain't broke...

FF OF 70%
FF LW 30%
FF Big N' Chunky perlite, two heaping scoops per 2 gallon growbag.
NYCDx??? clones in rw cubes

And the nutes...

FF Grow Big 6-4-4
FF Tiger Bloom 2-8-4
EJ Meta-K 0-0-10
Ionic Boost 0-5-6
Blossom Blaster 0-50-30
Milennium Cal-Mag Max 0-0-0

And the additives...

Dark Energy
Supernova
Supercharger
Fossil Fuel
Diamond Nectar
Hygrozyme
Pro-Tekt
TopMax
CarboMax
Gravity
Bushmaster
Purple Maxx

Oh, man, it's the dankies."

i found this an could not believe the shit people believe...................


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## bigman4270 (Jan 7, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> Botany-A functional approach-Walter H Muller....Wow, thats an old book...


 
No doubt, 1964. Like I said in one of my eirlier post "The farmers around here" and they are close if you know what I mean. Small town= small library.lol

Ya think I would know how to grow thing's being this close to the agricultural area, but I am from the Detroit area origanaly so didn't grow up a farmer.


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## Kriegs (Jan 8, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> Botany-A functional approach-Walter H Muller....Wow, thats an old book...


As a person with a natural resources career, I'm continually amazed at how dialed-in a lot of the old scientists were. No computers, no models, no GCMS machines, on and on... just tight observation.

BTW, did you realize you have "locational information" in your avatar photo? May be of no consequence depending where you are, etc... just thought I'd mention it.


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## seasmoke (Jan 9, 2010)

> "My mix"
> "I'm typical. If it ain't broke...
> 
> FF OF 70%
> ...


 
WOW!! Those things are supercharged!



> As a person with a natural resources career, I'm continually amazed at how dialed-in a lot of the old scientists were. No computers, no models, no GCMS machines, on and on... just tight observation.



Thats what I was thinking, and they nailed it.



> BTW, did you realize you have "locational information" in your avatar photo? May be of no consequence depending where you are, etc... just thought I'd mention it.


 
Yea, I know. Nowheres around me, don't know the vechicle, No biggie. I just thought it was a funny pic. Can you read the "bumper"? It says-
Hazzardazzcustoms.com


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## wyteboi (Jan 9, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> WOW!! Those things are supercharged!


no i would never do all that mess, i found that in someones post who claims to really use all that shit ......... his shit is probably dead by now. 

wb


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## Kriegs (Jan 9, 2010)

I had a huge lol last year when someone posted in the Newbie a "Growing School"-type thing and the "teacher" was just hitting those plants with everything under the sun. It was astonishing. And all along, it was "... really looking good now! ", the respondents all agreeing, and I was like... ah, no. Everything was all curly and twisted - a real fuck-fest. It eventually died out as the plants did, or the mods killed it because it was downright embarrassing.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 10, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> I had a huge lol last year when someone posted in the Newbie a "Growing School"-type thing and the "teacher" was just hitting those plants with everything under the sun. It was astonishing. And all along, it was "... really looking good now! ", the respondents all agreeing, and I was like... ah, no. Everything was all curly and twisted - a real fuck-fest. It eventually died out as the plants did, or the mods killed it because it was downright embarrassing.


You and me are cut from the same mold. At the now defunct Planet Ganja, I would advise a noob as to what was wrong with his yellowed curled up plants and how to correct it, his asshole buddies would refute me based on forum politics, a clique, then gang bang me trying to make me look like the bad guy..... and of course his garden ended up looking like shit. One guy who kept on suggesting adding all these rocket fuels was bound and determined to fuck up his friend's garden because he had this obsessive compulsive drive to refute EVERYTHING I posted. Now you know why I post the nutrient antagonism link so much. Some people just don't understand the concept of the "sum of the parts".

Like they say, "stupid is as stupid does."

Less is more,
UB


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## Kriegs (Jan 10, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> You and me are cut from the same mold. At the now defunct Planet Ganja, I would advise a noob as to what was wrong with his yellowed curled up plants and how to correct it, his asshole buddies would refute me based on forum politics, a clique, then gang bang me trying to make me look like the bad guy..... and of course his garden ended up looking like shit. One guy who kept on suggesting adding all these rocket fuels was bound and determined to fuck up his friend's garden because he had this obsessive compulsive drive to refute EVERYTHING I posted. Now you know why I post the nutrient antagonism link so much. Some people just don't understand the concept of the "sum of the parts".
> 
> Like they say, "stupid is as stupid does."
> 
> ...


No shit.. I've really been getting jumped on a lot here lately for pointing out the simple answers to issues ahead of all the complex steps and formulations people are so enamored of. Then, someone will track my link and find the one or two messy leaves in my grow pic's and say "see there.. you don't know what you're doing. Your plants look like shit..", just totally ignoring the other 99% of what's right in front of their eyes. A recent forum screed busted me down cuz his plants were twice as tall as mine at the same time point, but his 20" plants had like four nodes, no side growth.. mine are 10" loaded with internodes and branches, and just ready to shoot the moon in 12/12.. Ah shit, I could go on.

So yeah, at a lot of points I just say..."go ahead, fuck your plants with 42 different steps and formulations a week that you have no real understanding about, and see how it works out in the end..". And then you see the thread chain take off again with all these people throwing in a different two cents.. and the thread originator so confused and running all over, 2 trips a day to the hydro store and what-not. It's fairly sad actually.


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## riddleme (Jan 10, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> No shit.. I've really been getting jumped on a lot here lately for pointing out the simple answers to issues ahead of all the complex steps and formulations people are so enamored of. Then, someone will track my link and find the one or two messy leaves in my grow pic's and say "see there.. you don't know what you're doing. Your plants look like shit..", when the whole group looks pretty bomb. Or like the guy who busted me down cuz his plants were twice as tall as mine at the same time point, but his 20" plants had like four nodes, no side growth.. mine are loaded with internodes and branches.. Ah shit, I could go on.
> 
> So yeah, at a lot of points I just say..."go ahead, fuck your plants with 42 different steps and formulations a week that you have no real understanding about, and see how it works out in the end..". And then you see the thread chain take off again with all these people throwing in a different two cents.. and the thread originator so confused and running all over, 2 trips a day to the hydro store and what-not. It's fairly sad actually.


AMEN! the myths are so imbedded in the culture that it is a pain in the ass to get folks to understand simple botany.

Kudos to the folks that keep on keepin on and spreading the truth


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## Kriegs (Jan 10, 2010)

riddleme said:


> AMEN! the myths are so imbedded in the culture that it is a pain in the ass to get folks to understand simple botany.
> 
> Kudos to the folks that keep on keepin on and spreading the truth


Yeah.. you've been in on a few of these debates with me. You know first-hand.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 11, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> So yeah, at a lot of points I just say..."go ahead, fuck your plants with 42 different steps and formulations a week that you have no real understanding about, and see how it works out in the end..".


It's the way of the world.


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## mikegreenthumb (Jan 11, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's the way of the world.


yes it is where there is a demand there will be a supply wheather or not it is truly a supply or just convincing you that it is people want bigger bud and wanna push there plants as far as possible and the result is money hungry dutchmen give you a bottle of green/brown shit (if only it were shit then it would actually have a use) and call it "magic" for your plants then its makes em sick and conviententy enough they have "just" the right cure YOUR BEING HUSTLED PEOPLE STOP IT NOW CUT OFF THE BLEEDING


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## Katatawnic (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep, they all sell the "cures" to all our plant nutrient problems that shouldn't exist if their "complete" nutrient products were actually complete in the first place!


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 11, 2010)

Katatawnic said:


> Yep, they all sell the "cures" to all our plant nutrient problems that shouldn't exist if their "complete" nutrient products were actually complete in the first place!


Just wait till they come out with two part nutrients because people would be dumb enough to actually pay for two products that should be one...

Oh wait, they already do that. My bad.


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## Katatawnic (Jan 11, 2010)

LOL! As I was reading your first sentence, I was thinking, "Huh? They already do!" Then I read your next sentence. 

I was never dumb enough to do that one, BTW.


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## herbose (Jan 12, 2010)

Best thread in RIU history, not just because it confirms what I've learned thru observation. +rep for eveyone in the thread (almost everyone).
This should be a sticky in NEWBIE CENTRAL. Save people a lot of grief.


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## herbose (Jan 12, 2010)

OOPS.....too much rep in 24 hours, catch the rest of you later.


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## mikegreenthumb (Jan 12, 2010)

herbose said:


> OOPS.....too much rep in 24 hours, catch the rest of you later.


people just let information overwhelm thier common sense it happens over and over again if you never question the information your given you'll always be able to be lead astray


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## 2buds (Jan 13, 2010)

Uncle Ben..

I'm a noobie for sure, but I also have a technical degree so I like to learn before I do and I tend to analyze everything to death... I'm trying to understand the NPK thing with the nutes I use. I use a product called Cutting Edge. My bloom mix is: 3 parts, Micro at 6-0-0, Bloom at 2-1-6 and uncle Johns mix at 0-0-2. I understand that to get what the plant "sees" you would add these together for a total of 8-1-8 and divide by 3.. meaning 2.6-.33-2.6. I think I got this right from this thread and your explanations. But, my question is if the mix from the manufacture are not equal amounts, actually states use 5ml of Micro, 15ml of Bloom (Triple of Micro) and 10ml of Uncle Johns (Double of Micro)
These figures are per gallon of water.

Since the 3 nutes are not equal amounts, then how do you come up with the correct NPK? I'm guessing that you would triple the bloom number and double the Uncle Johns number... meaning the total would be as follows:
Micro - 6-0-0 (5 ml)
 Bloom - 6-3-18 (15 ml - Triple the 2-1-6)
Uncle Johns- 0-0-4 (10 ml - Double the 0-0-2)

Total would be 12-3-22, then would you still divide by 3? so it would be 4-1-7 or so. Is this correct?


Also.. I'm growing using Aeroponics/NFT. 

I'm going to get some books on Botany! Thanks for all your posts, I'm learning a great deal. I'm going to start using some Grow nutes in my bloom stage for sure for that extra Nitrogen. FYI.. Cutting Edge Grow Nutes are 2-1-6.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 13, 2010)

2buds said:


> Uncle Ben..
> 
> I'm a noobie for sure, but I also have a technical degree so I like to learn before I do and I tend to analyze everything to death... I'm trying to understand the NPK thing with the nutes I use. I use a product called Cutting Edge. My bloom mix is: 3 parts, Micro at 6-0-0, Bloom at 2-1-6 and uncle Johns mix at 0-0-2. I understand that to get what the plant "sees" you would add these together for a total of 8-1-8 and divide by 3.. meaning 2.6-.33-2.6. I think I got this right from this thread and your explanations. But, my question is if the mix from the manufacture are not equal amounts, actually states use 5ml of Micro, 15ml of Bloom (Triple of Micro) and 10ml of Uncle Johns (Double of Micro)
> These figures are per gallon of water.
> ...


Yep, a quick cursory look at your math looks correct. Too damn confusing for this here cowboy though. 



> Also.. I'm growing using Aeroponics/NFT.


Just curious, why? Wouldn't soil be easier and most likely more productive, especially for a newbie? Are you more interested in the forum "high tech" part of growing or plant culture in general? 

Just an observation, some of the most pathetic gardens I see around these parts are those attempting water culture, whether it be aero, DWC, or NFT.

Good luck,
UB


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## BigBudBalls (Jan 13, 2010)

Just a quick FYI.

Nature's Necture (I think thats the brand) has the NPK all in individual nutes.
You buy an N and a P and a K.

(too much work for me balancing all that over the grow, but can be good for a boost/correction of a deficiency. I had my system down well, and is ultra simple: MG soil and just water. Xplant for flowering. Quick bloom boost once in flowering, and a little molasses and epsom salt in flowering. Works well for me. But the 'leave it alone' theory I feel is the key; especially for newbies)


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## mikegreenthumb (Jan 13, 2010)

BigBudBalls said:


> Just a quick FYI.
> 
> Nature's Necture (I think thats the brand) has the NPK all in individual nutes.
> You buy an N and a P and a K.
> ...


nute's in my opinion ALWAYS should be as needed dunno what the epson salt is for the mollassis is a good thing soil has alot of the mico nutes in it already depending on quality etc but the bottom line "leave it alone" thing dunno bout that the best thing is to get a basic understanding of what makes your plants tick and go from there


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## BigBudBalls (Jan 13, 2010)

mikegreenthumb said:


> nute's in my opinion ALWAYS should be as needed dunno what the epson salt is for the mollassis is a good thing soil has alot of the mico nutes in it already depending on quality etc but the bottom line "leave it alone" thing dunno bout that the best thing is to get a basic understanding of what makes your plants tick and go from there


The epsom was for mag. my strained needed it.

The leave it alone part. Have you read many posts here? SO many people over react. One tiny little spot and they freak getting very supplement there is. Let nature do its thing. And if you keep messing with it, you won't get that basic understanding, because you have constantly screwed with it.


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## 2buds (Jan 13, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, a quick cursory look at your math looks correct. Too damn confusing for this here cowboy though.
> 
> Just curious, why? Wouldn't soil be easier and most likely more productive, especially for a newbie? Are you more interested in the forum "high tech" part of growing or plant culture in general?
> 
> ...


Well... I did the aero thing since I THOUGHT it would give me better yield and it seems like it is less waste and expense than Hydro, no medium to get rid off after. I'm not sure I"m going to yield more than soil, but I believed it would at the time. I built my own cloner, veg and flower units, so the expense was not high. Used Tupperware roughnecks, pvc pipe, fence posts for flower, etc.. I have had two grows so far with about 1 oz per plant, have increased with each grow. The 3rd grow I have going right now, I expect more. I used the hi-bloom crap and the leaves are dying off on the bottom. Its in the 5th week of flower and with a strain that should be finished in 6 weeks or so (Bubba Kush). I just added some grow nutes tonight to see if that would help (1/3 of the norm) I'm learning and I'm hoping that I will be able to get a lot more yield, hoping at least 2-3 ozs. a plant when I grow up! and LEARN more.. LOL. This thread, learning more on what a plant needs and NOT believing all you read will help me and NOT using the turbo-bloom stuff either.

Another question, I added tonight the Grow formula (2-1-6), but my Micro from Cutting Edge is 6-0-0. If I want to add Nitrogen, should I add just the Micro? since it is higher in Nitrogen? or should I use the 2-1-6 (grow formula) to add a little. My leaves seem to be dying off on the bottom, like their drying up, not all of them and the tops looks great.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 13, 2010)

BigBudBalls said:


> The leave it alone part. Have you read many posts here? SO many people over react. One tiny little spot and they freak getting very supplement there is. Let nature do its thing. And if you keep messing with it, you won't get that basic understanding, because you have constantly screwed with it.


That bears repeating.



2buds said:


> Another question, I added tonight the Grow formula (2-1-6), but my Micro from Cutting Edge is 6-0-0. If I want to add Nitrogen, should I add just the Micro? since it is higher in Nitrogen? or should I use the 2-1-6 (grow formula) to add a little. My leaves seem to be dying off on the bottom, like their drying up, not all of them and the tops looks great.


For starts, there is no such thing as a "Grow" formula that gets the N and K reversed as it should be. A "grow" formula, aka veg, promotes foliage which means more N than K. If you need N, then it looks like the Micro is what you'll need to use. You have a N deficiency.


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## 2buds (Jan 13, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> That bears repeating.
> 
> 
> 
> For starts, there is no such thing as a "Grow" formula that gets the N and K reversed as it should be. A "grow" formula, aka veg, promotes foliage which means more N than K. If you need N, then it looks like the Micro is what you'll need to use. You have a N deficiency.


Well.. thats what Cutting Edge calls their "Veg" solution... they call it Grow, funny how the K is higher than the N which is what you have said in this post about Hydro nutes. What can I tell you, they call it Grow, but more K than N.


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## widow87 (Jan 13, 2010)

i got a question real quick can u use hydro nutes in soil also im using a hydro store line of nutes brew n grow i started a tread about this a while ago but never got much of a response by the way uncle ben you know ur shit my plants are way happier with a dose of n with my bloom nutes during flowering thanks ..widow


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## Phelps (Jan 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> > That's a good plant food and specifically I'm talking about Peters Classic 10-30-20 which has more nitrate N than ammonical N and quite a bit more Mg than most and good amount of Fe to help combat leaf chlorosis. Obviously if the plant starts to prematurely losing lower leaves, then that's not what it needs so you switch back to a higher N food.
> 
> 
> All I was saying is, every ones environment is different, and it is best to read the plants, vs saying "This is what it needs because it worked for me".
> ...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 14, 2010)

widow87 said:


> i got a question real quick can u use hydro nutes in soil also im using a hydro store line of nutes brew n grow i started a tread about this a while ago but never got much of a response by the way uncle ben you know ur shit my plants are way happier with a dose of n with my bloom nutes during flowering thanks ..widow


You can, but be sure you don't duplicate the minerals. IOW, if you hydro nutes contain Ca and so does your soil, it might be too much. Soil-less is fine.


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## widow87 (Jan 14, 2010)

yea i think im gonna switch to coco and use the canna line of nute what do u think about those? i have heard good things but would like to know what u think of them oer what u would use if u were using coco thanks ...widow


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## seasmoke (Jan 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Excellent. You can mix and match to get where you want to go. If I had only 2 foods to choose from, for any kind of plant material, cannabis or otherwise, I'd choose a (1) 9-3-6 and a 3-9-6 from someone like Dyna-Gro or a (2) 30-10-10 and 10-30-20 from someone like Peters, or values pretty close to those. Commercially I use different foods from many types of manufacturers and buy them by the 25 and 50 lb bags. Heck, Walmart makes a great food.


 
I just got my JC BB in and JC 30-10-10 is on the way. I'm makeing a total switch over....Thanks UB.
I have been feeding them MG, will I have to ween then off that and into JC, or just nute as schedule?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 14, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I just got my JC BB in and JC 30-10-10 is on the way. I'm makeing a total switch over....Thanks UB.
> I have been feeding them MG, will I have to ween then off that and into JC, or just nute as schedule?


Use the 30-10-10 for veg and the other for flowering. Just a thought, Peters foods are extremely hygroscopic, meaning they will readily absorb water from the air. This is a good thing, means they are pure and contain no fillers. That won't hurt their effectiveness, just makes them messy in time. I only open the container in the house when the A/C is on or I know the RH is low.


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## autoflowa (Jan 14, 2010)

im using hammerhead for flower it only has P-K for flowering . So far, so good but if i notice it needs N i wont be scared to add it now  thanks man


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## seasmoke (Jan 14, 2010)

I'll be sure to keep it in a cool dry place. I suspected it might do that.
On the package it says under high intense light, to use double dose for great, fast growing. does 2400 wtt HID count in a 8x8 room as high intensity?


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## dragonpuff (Jan 17, 2010)

hey uncle ben, and all. 

thanks for this thread, i am really happy to see such a no-voodoo growing thread, as a new grower, the 5 part solutions with additives seems pretty overwhelming.

gh 3 part series converts to these numbers for the full veg and full flower phase

veg 7-4-3.6
flower 2.3-4-11
lucas formula 2.5-2.5-5

i would like your opinion on a few things if you don't mind 

a. what do you think about those npk's?
i think veg seems ok, but flower is a perfect example of slamming with k while neglecting n.

b. also would the lucas formula seem to fit better into good botany habits?

c. lastly, i would love for you to look at my romulan grow because i'm being told i gave too much nitrogen, but i followed the instructions very precisley, i never saw nute burn, but had the super leaf syndrome where big ass wide fan leaves grew a ton instead of bud production. do you agree with their determination, or was this something else? and is this the formulas fault or (more likely) my fault?

thanks so much for all your posts, if i was able to absorb 10% of the knowledge you've passed on, i would be growing monster crops today 

romulan grow details and pictures:
https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/293437-romulan-finished-questions.html

thanks again, and i hope this isn't thread jacking, i think it could be a great example of what you're talking about, if not sorry for the clutter 


edit: in my journey of trying to read everything you've posted, i found out what you think of a/b, but if you care to comment on c i'd appreciate it


----------



## 2buds (Jan 17, 2010)

uncle Ben/others.... I changed the res yesterday with new nutes, did NOT add the turbo bloom (I'm calling it that, but not the real name) this time and up'd the Nitrogen. Its really interesting, I do aeroponics/NFT and your supposed to add water each day to bring up the res to the original level, in my case its 3 gallons (I only have 5 plants). Anyway, each night I was adding only 1/2 gallon of water to bring it back up to the 3 gallon mark, which means that the plants drank about 1/2 a gallon a night. Tonight, I had to add 1.3 gallons of water, which means for the first time in a couple of weeks it drank over 1 gallon in 24 hours. Does the nitrogen increase help the plants/leaves absorb water better and more of it? I would think this is a good sign.

No more turbo bloom for me.

Thanks!


----------



## DaveCoulier (Jan 17, 2010)

2buds said:


> uncle Ben/others.... I changed the res yesterday with new nutes, did NOT add the turbo bloom (I'm calling it that, but not the real name) this time and up'd the Nitrogen. Its really interesting, I do aeroponics/NFT and your supposed to add water each day to bring up the res to the original level, in my case its 3 gallons (I only have 5 plants). Anyway, each night I was adding only 1/2 gallon of water to bring it back up to the 3 gallon mark, which means that the plants drank about 1/2 a gallon a night. Tonight, I had to add 1.3 gallons of water, which means for the first time in a couple of weeks it drank over 1 gallon in 24 hours. Does the nitrogen increase help the plants/leaves absorb water better and more of it? I would think this is a good sign.
> 
> No more turbo bloom for me.
> 
> Thanks!


I was just reading a plant study, and it mentioned somewhere in it Nitrogen improves water uptake by plants, so I went googling to see if I could find more info about that.

I found this:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/frfgjapum648jbkp/


----------



## 2buds (Jan 17, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I was just reading a plant study, and it mentioned somewhere in it Nitrogen improves water uptake by plants, so I went googling to see if I could find more info about that.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/frfgjapum648jbkp/




Thanks Dave! Great information. I'm hoping that it fatens up the buds! I started the N think so late though in flower. Wish I would have read this tread a couple of grows ago. Oh well..


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I was just reading a plant study, and it mentioned somewhere in it Nitrogen improves water uptake by plants, so I went googling to see if I could find more info about that.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/frfgjapum648jbkp/


Nice work Dave. The more you have to water your plant, the better it's health and vigor should be.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2010)

dragonpuff said:


> hey uncle ben, and all.


This might help. https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/288013-mg-defiency.html


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## dragonpuff (Jan 17, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> This might help. https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/288013-mg-defiency.html



i probably just have a curtain of newb over my eyes, but i don't think my problems that happened look like his, i was good about the nitrogen and most of my leaves hung on until close to the end, they just went leaf growing crazy. 

sorry if i'm a bigger dumbass than even i thought, but if you can tell me what i'm missing i'll be eternally greatful

ps i nearly pissed myself reading the lollipopping thread you're on...way to have no mercy


----------



## CheechD (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks Unc Ben I was wondering why my kids wernt doing as well this crop I changed to a highed p fert well now I know.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2010)

dragonpuff said:


> i probably just have a curtain of newb over my eyes, but i don't think my problems that happened look like his, i was good about the nitrogen and most of my leaves hung on until close to the end, they just went leaf growing crazy.


Got any pix? Are you saying they produced alot of leaves and not much bud? The link I gave was to make a point, that it is leaves that drive bud.


----------



## dragonpuff (Jan 18, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Got any pix? Are you saying they produced alot of leaves and not much bud? The link I gave was to make a point, that it is leaves that drive bud.



yes lots of leaves not much bud. here is a link to the online album


https://www.rollitup.org/members/dragonpuff-183508/albums/romulan-10086/

thanks


----------



## 2buds (Jan 18, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I was just reading a plant study, and it mentioned somewhere in it Nitrogen improves water uptake by plants, so I went googling to see if I could find more info about that.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/frfgjapum648jbkp/


Its funny how the 1st day of nute change with higher nitrogen had 1.3 gallon of fresh water uptake and the next night (tonight) went back to the 1/2 gallon uptake. Not sure what that means. Did it suck up all the nitrogen in just a 24 hour period? Not sure now. Have to wait and see how the plants react in a couple of days I guess.


----------



## wyteboi (Jan 19, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> No shit.. I've really been getting jumped on a lot here lately for pointing out the simple answers to issues ahead of all the complex steps and formulations people are so enamored of. Then, someone will track my link and find the one or two messy leaves in my grow pic's and say "see there.. you don't know what you're doing. Your plants look like shit..", just totally ignoring the other 99% of what's right in front of their eyes. A recent forum screed busted me down cuz his plants were twice as tall as mine at the same time point, but his 20" plants had like four nodes, no side growth.. mine are 10" loaded with internodes and branches, and just ready to shoot the moon in 12/12.. Ah shit, I could go on.
> 
> So yeah, at a lot of points I just say..."go ahead, fuck your plants with 42 different steps and formulations a week that you have no real understanding about and see how it works out in the end". And then you see the thread chain take off again with all these people throwing in a different two cents.. and the thread originator so confused and running all over, 2 trips a day to the hydro store and what-not. It's fairly sad actually.



i might have to quote that in my sig......


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## wyteboi (Jan 19, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> IT IS LEAVES THAT DRIVE BUD


this _should _be the very first thing you learn about any plant. 

3 stupidest myths i still see everyday:

1. leaves need to be yellow at the end.
2. take all the big fans out of the way so the flower gets more light.
3. take all the fans off and the spider mites dont have anywhere to live.

If you own 28 different foods , 65 different additives and 14 jugs of molasses and not one single book on plants then that is the problem.
Read folks, not just on RIU but on plants in general. 

wb


----------



## Afka (Jan 19, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> 14 jugs of molasses and not one single book on plants



Hahaha



But the interw3bz sez....


----------



## Wetdog (Jan 20, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> If you own 28 different foods , 65 different additives and 14 jugs of molasses and not one single book on plants then that is the problem.
> Read folks, not just on RIU but on plants in general.
> 
> wb


That would make a great sig line! 

Wet


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 20, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> If you own 28 different foods , 65 different additives and 14 jugs of molasses and not one single book on plants then that is the problem.
> Read folks, not just on RIU but on plants in general.
> 
> wb


Hell, it should be the opening statement to this site lol!


----------



## Tattooboy37 (Jan 20, 2010)

Damn you guys never cease to amaze me. Its as if you all think your way is the only way. Cant people just use a basic formula and grow on that. You also need to remember that just cause something works in your room doesn't mean it will translate into mine or someone else's. How many plants do you focus on. How big an area. what are u starting w. (seed or cuts). How long do you veg, ie what size plants do you grow. The ones i see are all about 24" when finished. My friend doesnt even switch his til then or later and end up at about 5-6' (he has 10' ceilings) I do mine to finish at about 4'.It all depends on what stlyle you like to use. 
Pruning is also a matter of taste. Not all leaves need to stay on the plant the whole time. If you have an over abundance surrounding your buds in the final 2-3 weeks you'll end up w. a bunch of fluff and chances of powdery mildew or bud rot. Trust me doing a 10x10 room w/ 25-30 large plants is a hell of a lot different than some cat putting a 400w in his closet and taking care of 2 damn plants. 
So IMO just do what works and ask ?'s if you need help. Stop posting a bunch of useless crap trying to make yourselves seem cool or smarter than most. Its a damn plant and w/ a little love and good timing through experience you will know when to add a high P fert or whichever additives you use. 
Good luck to all growers remember. we are all supposed to be on the same team, but we dont all have to share the same glove and bat .


----------



## bigman4270 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tattooboy37 said:


> Damn you guys never cease to amaze me. Its as if you all think your way is the only way. Cant people just use a basic formula and grow on that. You also need to remember that just cause something works in your room doesn't mean it will translate into mine or someone else's. How many plants do you focus on. How big an area. what are u starting w. (seed or cuts). How long do you veg, ie what size plants do you grow. The ones i see are all about 24" when finished. My friend doesnt even switch his til then or later and end up at about 5-6' (he has 10' ceilings) I do mine to finish at about 4'.It all depends on what stlyle you like to use.
> Pruning is also a matter of taste. Not all leaves need to stay on the plant the whole time. If you have an over abundance surrounding your buds in the final 2-3 weeks you'll end up w. a bunch of fluff and chances of powdery mildew or bud rot. Trust me doing a 10x10 room w/ 25-30 large plants is a hell of a lot different than some cat putting a 400w in his closet and taking care of 2 damn plants.
> So IMO just do what works and ask ?'s if you need help. Stop posting a bunch of useless crap trying to make yourselves seem cool or smarter than most. Its a damn plant and w/ a little love and good timing through experience you will know when to add a high P fert or whichever additives you use.
> Good luck to all growers remember. we are all supposed to be on the same team, but we dont all have to share the same glove and bat .


Its post's like your's that amaze me. You guys read a few post's in the thread and you feel its your duty to "set us straight." I am sure you will see it stated here numerous times that no 2 grows are the same. The OP is offering his advice and time to answer the questions that are posted here. You came here, we did not go looking for you or your wisdom. 

Just as you have stated your opinion, so too has the OP. If you don't like his views than move on, or start your own thread so that you will be able to give your "opinion" when asked for it by the RIU community. 

Most people that post here are stealth growers and only have room or the finances for a small grow. What I don't see here are the professional growers asking for advice. What I do see is a lot of new growers who are looking for a helping hand. If what he was giving was bad advice than I am sure it would have caught up with him, but all I see are the thanks for the help post's usually.

What is wrong with trying to teach a little botany with his answer's. Why is it not OK to try and show a new grower that there is more to growing than marketing hype and fancy Nute names. I think the OP does an excellent job of letting the grower no "it is just a plant and not some alien thing sent here for us to worship."

Its not said enough! Thanks Uncle Ben for your time and knowledge.

Keep Em Green!

Big


----------



## Tattooboy37 (Jan 20, 2010)

1st of all I sit and read just for kicks quite a bit and finally decided to put my 2 cents in. Secondly i wasnt trying to rip or bag on anyone. All i said is that i see a bunch of nonsense that isn't related to the topic. How did it get from P in regards to inducing flowering to all the other bs. Plus i came here to search for something and was brought to this topic for some reason? I'm the one who was trying to get everyone to lighten up and help out, not post more negative stuff. As for the you helping people out, how bout you answer their questions as THEY post them not just start some thread about random things that noobies dont get anyways? The reason I came here was to see what people think of Cutting Edges line. I cant just put all my eggs in one basket and hope things come out ok. If you want your stuff in the collectives it better be damn good, damn hard, and smell damn pretty. I know it is stupid but thats the way it is here. I didn't want to start a new thread cause their should be tons already.
Lastly to BIG4270 i dont want any negative feelings or for you to think i am being an ass. If you go through and read a lot of stuff on here is bs or really negative. Isn't this supposed to be a mellowing thing anyhow. Peace, keep it green.

p.s. support your local efforts to allow medical marijuana in your states. then follow the laws.


----------



## bigman4270 (Jan 20, 2010)

Hey Tat,

It's all good. Your rite, this is suppose to be a mellow place. Stick around and maybe you can help some of us noobie's.

Peace

Big


----------



## W Dragon (Jan 21, 2010)

hey uncle ben and all the other dudes out there sorry if i'm getting this wrong i'm new to the site and to the computer and unfortunately not to sure what i'm doing is right, i'm on my first ever crop and following my old grandads advicee of to keep them mean keep them green and give em only what they need i have five ladys in an area 1.2x1.2x2m under a 600hps in a mylar lined tent my smallest 2 measured 24'' last night and my other 3 28-30'' i haven't lost a single leaf yet and i'm in week 5 and on day 4 of flowering as of this am and all i've fed mine on is miracle grow for azalea,camellia and rhododendron 30ml per gallon every 3 days so far with only 1 straight watering to date since i started them on the feed at about 20days in my ph is at a filterd 6.5 my temps are 28-31c the nutritional values of miracle grow are 6-1.7-5 and added half a cup of urine per gallon 3 times i have seriously healthy looking plants and the m g only cost me £2 per litre and i'm still on the first bottle i was wondering if you could suggest what would be my best option for flowering as i'm already 4 days in everything i have looked at so far seems to have quiet a high NPK ratio and i'm worried about causing damage or defs being my first time thanks UB thought i'd ask you because unfortunately i,ve read alot of crap from supposed growers and even i can see that unfortunately it is crap
rep to you for the great info

Big[/QUOTE] simple doesn't mean stupid


----------



## dariuswestcoast (Jan 21, 2010)

UB this is awesome !!! thank u!!!


----------



## wyteboi (Jan 21, 2010)

Tattooboy37 said:


> Damn you guys never cease to amaze me. Its as if you all think your way is the only way. Cant people just use a basic formula and grow on that. You also need to remember that just cause something works in your room doesn't mean it will translate into mine or someone else's. How many plants do you focus on. How big an area. what are u starting w. (seed or cuts). How long do you veg, ie what size plants do you grow. The ones i see are all about 24" when finished. My friend doesnt even switch his til then or later and end up at about 5-6' (he has 10' ceilings) I do mine to finish at about 4'.It all depends on what stlyle you like to use.
> Pruning is also a matter of taste. Not all leaves need to stay on the plant the whole time. If you have an over abundance surrounding your buds in the final 2-3 weeks you'll end up w. a bunch of fluff and chances of powdery mildew or bud rot. Trust me doing a 10x10 room w/ 25-30 large plants is a hell of a lot different than some cat putting a 400w in his closet and taking care of 2 damn plants.
> So IMO just do what works and ask ?'s if you need help. Stop posting a bunch of useless crap trying to make yourselves seem cool or smarter than most. Its a damn plant and w/ a little love and good timing through experience you will know when to add a high P fert or whichever additives you use.
> Good luck to all growers remember. we are all supposed to be on the same team, but we dont all have to share the same glove and bat .


well sit back an join the team then. 
what would be the big difference in growing 2 or 30? (more work , more fans?) i am not the one to stir shit up but this is confusing to folks, there is no difference in doing a couple or doing a bunch. the plant dont change nor does the way it tick. thats about the only part of your post i dont agree with. I really dont think anyone on here is trying to be "cool" . i would say 8 out of 10 growers buy into the marketing hype..... i did. and sometimes not always it takes a thread like this to make you relize that.
(that powdery mildew will go away with some air circulation)
Bottom line: "So IMO just do what works and ask ?'s if you need help."


wb


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## Katatawnic (Jan 21, 2010)

Tattooboy37 said:


> I'm the one who was trying to get everyone to lighten up and help out, not post more negative stuff.
> 
> As for the you helping people out, how bout you answer their questions as THEY post them not just start some thread about random things that noobies dont get anyways?
> 
> If you go through and read a lot of stuff on here is bs or really negative. Isn't this supposed to be a mellowing thing anyhow. Peace, keep it green.


To be fair, your initial post did come off as more of that negative stuff. However, you've since clarified, so it's all good. When poking fun, it's always helpful to readers when smilies like  or  or  are used, to help replace the lack of body language and voice inflections when talking via text. 

People are constantly asking UB (and others, of course) about plant nutrition, in several other threads daily. Further, there are many people, myself included, who appreciate tutorials and troubleshooting to already be present when seeking solutions.

Every site is going to have BS and negativity. Par for the course.



Tattooboy37 said:


> Trust me doing a 10x10 room w/ 25-30 large plants is a hell of a lot different than some cat putting a 400w in his closet and taking care of 2 damn plants.


There's no difference between one plant or one thousand when it comes to basic gardening essentials such as nutrition.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 21, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> well sit back an join the team then.
> what would be the big difference in growing 2 or 30? (more work , more fans?) i am not the one to stir shit up but this is confusing to folks, there is no difference in doing a couple or doing a bunch. the plant dont change nor does the way it tick. thats about the only part of your post i dont agree with. I really dont think anyone on here is trying to be "cool" . i would say 8 out of 10 growers buy into the marketing hype..... i did. and sometimes not always it takes a thread like this to make you relize that.
> (that powdery mildew will go away with some air circulation)
> Bottom line: "So IMO just do what works and ask ?'s if you need help."
> ...


Great points.


----------



## bigman4270 (Jan 22, 2010)

Katatawnic said:


> To be fair, your initial post did come off as more of that negative stuff. However, you've since clarified, so it's all good. When poking fun, it's always helpful to readers when smilies like  or  or  are used, to help replace the lack of body language and voice inflections when talking via text.
> 
> People are constantly asking UB (and others, of course) about plant nutrition, in several other threads daily. Further, there are many people, myself included, who appreciate tutorials and troubleshooting to already be present when seeking solutions.
> 
> ...


 

See what I mean. They come in and stir up crap and then bug out. Talk about negativity and BS. I asked him to stay around and maybe help out, but I guess we are not worth his time?

Thanks for the rep Kat, just stating what needed to be said to him. IMO

Keep Em Green!!!

Big


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 22, 2010)

W Dragon said:


> hey uncle ben and all the other dudes out there sorry if i'm getting this wrong i'm new to the site and to the computer and unfortunately not to sure what i'm doing is right, i'm on my first ever crop and following my old grandads advicee of to keep them mean keep them green and give em only what they need i have five ladys in an area 1.2x1.2x2m under a 600hps in a mylar lined tent my smallest 2 measured 24'' last night and my other 3 28-30'' i haven't lost a single leaf yet and i'm in week 5 and on day 4 of flowering as of this am and all i've fed mine on is miracle grow for azalea,camellia and rhododendron 30ml per gallon every 3 days so far with only 1 straight watering to date since i started them on the feed at about 20days in my ph is at a filterd 6.5 my temps are 28-31c the nutritional values of miracle grow are 6-1.7-5 and added half a cup of urine per gallon 3 times i have seriously healthy looking plants and the m g only cost me £2 per litre and i'm still on the first bottle i was wondering if you could suggest what would be my best option for flowering as i'm already 4 days in everything i have looked at so far seems to have quiet a high NPK ratio and i'm worried about causing damage or defs being my first time thanks UB thought i'd ask you because unfortunately i,ve read alot of crap from supposed growers and even i can see that unfortunately it is crap
> rep to you for the great info


If it's working for you, then why change a thing?

Now, we have the pot calling the kettle black:



Tattooboy37 said:


> All i said is that i see a bunch of nonsense that isn't related to the topic. How did it get from P in regards to inducing flowering to all the other bs.


It's not about P inducing flowering. It's about too much P having an effect of reducing your yields by inducing premature leaf drop and micro deficiencies. You need to start at the beginning and read page one.



> Plus i came here to search for something and was brought to this topic for some reason? I'm the one who was trying to get everyone to lighten up and help out, not post more negative stuff. As for the you helping people out, how bout you answer their questions as THEY post them not just start some thread about random things that noobies dont get anyways? *The reason I came here was to see what people think of Cutting Edges line.*


You say you see a bunch of "off topic nonsense" and then want opinions about some snake oil crap line? You're off topic, son. Start a new thread.

UB


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## W Dragon (Jan 22, 2010)

thanks for replying mate it's much appreciated after re reading the thread i sort of come to the same conclusion any of your threads you would reccomend to a info hungry starter like myself mate getting a bit tired of reading uneducated babble from the heard thanks again mate +rep for all the real info


----------



## riddleme (Jan 22, 2010)

W Dragon said:


> thanks for replying mate it's much appreciated after re reading the thread i sort of come to the same conclusion any of your threads you would reccomend to a info hungry starter like myself mate getting a bit tired of reading uneducated babble from the heard thanks again mate +rep for all the real info


Read my NooB Advice thread in sig link, UB is there helpin out, read the whole thing it's fun and full of info there are a few haters but it's all good


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## W Dragon (Jan 22, 2010)

i will do thanks mate and thanks for responding +rep for the help mate it's nice to know help is at hand and i don't just have to rely on the little knowledge that i have


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## spl1 (Jan 25, 2010)

Lets take a look at Advanced Nutrients Seni Grow & Seni Bloom.

SeniGrow Part A vs SeniBloom Part A:
Both labels are very close to each other, the difference is SeniBloom removed Iron and Manganese, lowered Ca 0.8%*, *upped total N 0.6%and added K2O 3.10%

SeniGrow Part B vs SeniBloom Part B:
Again both labels very close, the difference is SeniBloom lowered total N 1.0%, raised P2O5 3.9%, K2O and Mg stayed the same.

Uncle Ben is right about needing N during the bloom stage, I think I remember Uncle Ben on the OG site? I might be wrong.

SeniGrow: Part A 
3.7-0-0 
0.10% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
1.90% Nitrate nitrogen
1.70% other water soluble nitrogen
2.50% Calcium (Ca) 
0.12% Iron (Fe)
0.05% Manganese (Mn)
0.00096% Molybdenum (Mo)

SeniGrow: Part B
2.5-2.2-5.7
0.10% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
1.00% Nitrate nitrogen
1.40% other water soluble nitrogen
2.20% Phosphate (P2O5)
5.70% Potash (K2O)
1.00% Magnesium (Mg)

SeniBloom: Part A
4.3-0.3.1
0.10% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
2.10% Nitrate nitrogen
2.10% other water soluble nitrogen
3.10% Potash (k2O)
1.70% Calcium (Ca) 
0.0008% Molybdenum (Mo)

SeniBloom: Part B
1.5-6.1-5.7
0.02% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
0.50% Nitrate nitrogen
0.98% other water soluble nitrogen
6.10% Phosphate (P2O5)
5.70$% Potash (K2O)
1.00% Magnesium (Mg)

The worst part is AN bottles leak from the lid when you shake them up, that pisses me off! all the research and they can't get the bottle to stay leak proof.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2010)

spl1 said:


> Uncle Ben is right about needing N during the bloom stage, I think I remember Uncle Ben on the OG site? I might be wrong.


Two pinned threads going on 150K views when it went down. Remember the Link-O-Rama?



> The worst part is AN bottles leak from the lid when you shake them up, that pisses me off! all the research and they can't get the bottle to stay leak proof.


If leaking bottles is the worst part of using AN's stuff, you ought to be happy.


----------



## CaNNaBiZ CaNucK (Jan 25, 2010)

Hey UB

Don't want to take up too much of your time but I was wondering if you could just give your opinion about the nutrients I'm using. I, like many, have leaves dropping prematurely. I've increased my N and it seemsed to help a bit, but I'm thinking of switching to another nutrient blend.

Dutch Nutrient Formula:

Gro A - 2-0-2
Gro B - 0-1-3

Bloom A - 3-0-3
Bloom B - 1-0.5-3

And how do you calculate the final A+B NPK values?

Thanks UB


----------



## spl1 (Jan 25, 2010)

> Two pinned threads going on 150K views when it went down. Remember the Link-O-Rama?


Yep I do, I miss that site no kids telling you your wrong, LOL
Every one was there to learn not crap, back when every one wanted to learn and would read a book on basic botany. Now with the MMJ boom every one with a bag of dirt, or a gallon of water thinks there a farmer.
It reminds me of all the people that buy the get rich quick stuff and never really put the time in to learn what they should before spending money.

At least your still out there willing to teach the basics for the newbies. *DAM I MISS OG!!!*




> If leaking bottles is the worst part of using AN's stuff, you ought to be happy.


I get to test products from time to time, a friend of mine owns a hydro store and gives me free stuff to play with from time to time.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2010)

CaNNaBiZ CaNucK said:


> Hey UB
> 
> Don't want to take up too much of your time but I was wondering if you could just give your opinion about the nutrients I'm using.


They suck. Any more questions? 



> I, like many, have leaves dropping prematurely. I've increased my N and it seemsed to help a bit, but I'm thinking of switching to another nutrient blend.
> 
> Dutch Nutrient Formula:
> 
> ...


If in equal amounts, add them up and divide by 2.

Go ahead and switch. You'll end up with the same ole crap. 

UB


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## CaNNaBiZ CaNucK (Jan 26, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> They suck. Any more questions?
> 
> If in equal amounts, add them up and divide by 2.
> 
> ...


UB, You Rock! Thanks again for the help. This site is lucky to have ya 

+REP


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2010)

CaNNaBiZ CaNucK said:


> UB, You Rock! Thanks again for the help. This site is lucky to have ya
> 
> +REP


Thanks and comment on the avatar, it's very cool.


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## veggiegardener (Jan 27, 2010)

I just spotted this. Good advice.

I blend my own nutes and use a ratio of 2-1-1 in veg and 1-4-3 in bloom. I maintain high levels of micros throughout, as well.

I think we're on the same page...


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2010)

Here's an excellent read:

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Phosphate.pdf


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## spl1 (Jan 28, 2010)

That's why AN has you using Voodoo juice and Piranha heavy every watering is to replace every thing the heavy Phosphate loads kill off.


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## Kriegs (Jan 28, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Here's an excellent read:
> 
> http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Phosphate.pdf


That's a great site. Here's another one everyone should read (along with several others there):

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Horticultural peat.pdf

Just a reminder for everyone that, whether "chemical" or "organic", every product comes from somewhere, and they all have consequences. The labels mean nothing.


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## wyteboi (Feb 1, 2010)

First, Thanks for the great links/info ub and kriegs!



spl1 said:


> That's why AN has you using Voodoo juice and Piranha heavy every watering is to replace every thing the heavy Phosphate loads kill off.


Thats almost true sp1, but if a "heavy P load" kills the beneficial bacteria then there is no really fast way to get the bacteria we want to colonize the roots again. I figure (opinion)
that most of the bacteria we want has a direct relationship with the roots and form colonies (or whatever it would be called) IN and around the roots. 
So AN's fancy (and VERY expensive) lil microbe additive, might add beneficial bacteria to the medium but i dont think the microbes can colonize the roots as fast as you can kill them with an od of P.
That voodoo juice has some *very* outrageous claims, they claim 117% increase in root mass but they fail to tell you what they tested against. If you used the same medium and brewed your own microbe tea with simple castings and/or good compost and ran a test against AN bullshit , then i bet 100 bucks that it would not be no 117% then. (my guess is 0% and the fresh brew might even be better but thats just an opinion)
AN is the biggest thief of growers money on the market.


I got a 500% increase in root mass and plant mass with one single serving of MG all purpose fert, but i sure in the hell aint makin a bogus claim that MG will create a 500% increase in anything. Its just what _my_ plants wanted at the time. They wanted food not MG or any brand , just food. 


wb


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## Kriegs (Feb 1, 2010)

Hey UB.. I have a specific question for you.

How long, in your experience, does it take for MJ to uptake a feed and resolve a N deficiency? My girl sprung a yellow leaf a week ago, then another, then a bunch. It's classic N deficiency - that I recognize from the same experience with many other plants. I gave her a 1/3 dose of 6-4-4 two days ago, a very conservative feed in my mind, and I haven't seen any improvement yet.

But, I don't want to load feed upon feed == we all know where that takes you.

With other stuff in my garden, I notice the rates of resolution differ greatly by species; can take months for hollies, for e.g.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 2, 2010)

wyteboi, you're right. They understand that there is no way anyone can refute their claims, that no credible non partisan testing lab or government agency will protect the consumer, so, they go about their biz unabated. 



Kriegs said:


> Hey UB.. I have a specific question for you.
> 
> How long, in your experience, does it take for MJ to uptake a feed and resolve a N deficiency?


Depends on application, medium and N source. Should be pretty quick.



> My girl sprung a yellow leaf a week ago, then another, then a bunch. It's classic N deficiency - that I recognize from the same experience with many other plants. I gave her a 1/3 dose of 6-4-4 two days ago, a very conservative feed in my mind, and I haven't seen any improvement yet.


What is it, Fox Farms? Can you link me to the analysis?

Either not enough N or wrong N source for fast action, mostly ammonical or urea form which will take some time to convert to nitrate. Find Schultz's Miracid, a 30-10-10. That will green it up quickly, or add a tsp of ammonium sulfate to a gallon of water and drench your pots.


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## Kriegs (Feb 2, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> wyteboi, you're right. They understand that there is no way anyone can refute their claims, that no credible non partisan testing lab or government agency will protect the consumer, so, they go about their biz unabated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, UB. I think I was treading a little too lightly, and I didn't think about the pace of the N source. The plant is in soil, BTW - a 50/50 of MG pre-fert and MG Organic. However, when I made the transplant from 2 to 3 gallons, there was surprisingly little room for new soil in there, and she's really blasted off since then (probably used it up already).

Here's a "real analysis" of Foxfarms Grow Big, beyond the simple 6-4-4 given on the label (and yes, that's what I used). It's on page 3 in alphabetical order:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2006_1231.pdf

I have some basic MG 24-8-16 on hand; I've seen that stuff work pretty fast before. I also have the Azalea/Rhodo formula - much like the Miracid. I'll give that a try if I don't see improvement soon (at 1/3 strength also, is my thinking..).


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 2, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Thanks, UB. I think I was treading a little too lightly, and I didn't think about the pace of the N source. The plant is in soil, BTW - a 50/50 of MG pre-fert and MG Organic. However, when I made the transplant from 2 to 3 gallons, there was surprisingly little room for new soil in there, and she's really blasted off since then (probably used it up already).
> 
> Here's a "real analysis" of Foxfarms Grow Big, beyond the simple 6-4-4 given on the label (and yes, that's what I used). It's on page 3 in alphabetical order:
> 
> ...


With that low of a dose you could be creating an overall nutritional deficiency, especially if your initial soil nutrient charge is gone, which I suspect it is. I'd go with 1 tsp. of the 24-8-16 in rain water if you have it but a 30-10-10 would be better now. 

That is a great site. Too bad they don't test "cannabis specific" nutrients. I bet they are all over the place. Some of the results aren't even close to the published claims.

You asked about the availability of the N. The site doesn't give you the N source but upon checking I found it slow reacting from ammonical sources and urea.

As you found out, you're wasting your time going from a 2 to a 3 gallon. Start in a 1 gallon and go to a 3 or 5.

Good luck,
UB


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## Kriegs (Feb 2, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> With that low of a dose you could be creating an overall nutritional deficiency, especially if your initial soil nutrient charge is gone, which I suspect it is. I'd go with 1 tsp. of the 24-8-16 in rain water if you have it but a 30-10-10 would be better now.
> 
> That is a great site. Too bad they don't test "cannabis specific" nutrients. I bet they are all over the place. Some of the results aren't even close to the published claims.
> 
> ...


Gotcha... all the way around - thanks UB!

=======================================

_Added later: turned out, I did have some 30-10-10 Miracid on hand, so that's what she just got -- a soak at 1 tsp / gallon. That should cover her for awhile._


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## Kriegs (Feb 5, 2010)

May-un, is this plant serious?

I could of sworn I saw the chlorosis turning around a day or two after the 30-10-10. But now it seems to be on the march again. It's totally isolated to the big fans on the mainstem. Big fans on side branches are not affected, nor is anything else. 

I know you aren't a big fan of HPS light in pic's, but the first one really shows the contrast between the big fans, and the healthy leaves up higher and on ALL the side branches (incl. the very bottom).

Maybe this is just the way this plant goes? She is supposed to be an 8-9 week strain (Nirvana bubblelicious), and we're at 3 weeks _flowering_ (not just since 12/12). I dunno.. I'm not going to start running around like a chicken at this point. It just looks so much like a basic N deficiency that should be easy to turn around.

Could she really have burned thru that 30-10-10 already? 

Here's some particulars that might help: 400W HPS / 3 gallon MG soil / plant height = 45" above soil and adding 2-5" a day.

I added a couple pics of the whole plant and the healthy tops. Healthy growth is still the dominant state of this plant.

Any thoughts you want to share are appreciated.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 6, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> May-un, is this plant serious?


I think you've had a deficiency of N for quite some time. That plant is lacking in foliage. 

I don't see the chlorosis - green veins, yellow surrounding leaf tissue on the lower leaves. Taking a photo with lights off and using the flash on your camera would be a big help. A overall yellow cast doesn't allow me to see any contrast.


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## Kriegs (Feb 6, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I think you've had a deficiency of N for quite some time. That plant is lacking in foliage.
> 
> I don't see the chlorosis - green veins, yellow surrounding leaf tissue on the lower leaves. Taking a photo with lights off and using the flash on your camera would be a big help. A overall yellow cast doesn't allow me to see any contrast.


Yeah.. I thought she had a bit of a weird build. Maybe she's just one of those "nute hogs" I see people mention.

Well, shit, the evidence is what it is. She needs more N, I think.

I'll say this, too -- when she got the 30-10-10 feed, a couple days after she went from her usual 2" per day stretch to 4-5"

I think she wants to be an 8-foot canna-tree..


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## Kriegs (Feb 6, 2010)

Here's some natural-light shots of the situation. Almost all the yellowed leaves are the big fans on the mainstem. The healthy green stuff is from the side branches.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, that tells the tale. Definately a N deficiency. You've got to stop the premature leaf loss. When a plant is not getting sufficient N to sustain leaf maintenance, it will pull from the old and give to the new, starting at the bottom and working up.


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## Kriegs (Feb 7, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Well, that tells the tale. Definately a N deficiency. You've got to stop the premature leaf loss. When a plant is not getting sufficient N to sustain leaf maintenance, it will pull from the old and give to the new, starting at the bottom and working up.


Yup.. I didn't see how it could be anything else. She got another dose yesterday, and I plan to give her 30-10-10 every other watering until I see resolution.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 7, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Yup.. I didn't see how it could be anything else. She got another dose yesterday, and I plan to give her 30-10-10 every other watering until I see resolution.


Sounds like a good plan.


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## wyteboi (Feb 8, 2010)

Thats what some of my "better" ones looked like kriegs. Ub , dave and even you walked me right through the prob. Mine was more of a nute def, then a n def. but one dose of 24-8-16 all purpose mg fixed it. Just as soon as the dirt started drying out , the one week turn around was amazing. From white, purple and yellow to a dark healthy green. My better ones looked just like yours and i know for sure now it was a n def. I am still tweeking my organic shit, and its comin along nice, but when the plant is hungry it gets what it needs. I suspect that 30-10-10 will perk yours right up.
Thanks again guys.
wb


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## Kriegs (Feb 8, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> Thats what some of my "better" ones looked like kriegs. Ub , dave and even you walked me right through the prob. Mine was more of a nute def, then a n def. but one dose of 24-8-16 all purpose mg fixed it. Just as soon as the dirt started drying out , the one week turn around was amazing. From white, purple and yellow to a dark healthy green. My better ones looked just like yours and i know for sure now it was a n def. I am still tweeking my organic shit, and its comin along nice, but when the plant is hungry it gets what it needs. I suspect that 30-10-10 will perk yours right up.
> Thanks again guys.
> wb


Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..

I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march". 

It seems, at some point, the extra P and K that probably aren't needed as much as the N could begin to become a separate problem?

I also notice, too, that MG ferts are primarily urea-based N. Isn't that also slow-acting like ammoniacal N? Anybody make a straight NO3-based product? 

I'm concerned from the standpoint that I'd really hoped to "keep it green" from tip to tail. Looks like I might miss that mark. All in all, I think she'll turn out well, but I was aiming for a higher mark this time.

Thanks again...


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## wyteboi (Feb 8, 2010)

Ub will have to take that one ....its mostly outta my league. 
I dont think the urea is slow acting though because of the very fast action i seen , i think the urea might "build up" faster then other products , but i am not sure really. I really didnt see any change until they started drying up real good but mine are a lil different. I would pinch those "mostly damaged" leaves off and just expect the higher n to not let the other ones yellow out. I am just kinda scared of salt so if i was to give it 2 doses of balanced/soluble food like that, i would just use strait water after that and just expect the food to work but me being scared of salt is why i started having probs to begin with .......so these are just my opinions and nothing else 

wb


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## seasmoke (Feb 8, 2010)

Jacks 20-30-10 doesn't have Urea.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 8, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..
> 
> I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march".
> 
> ...


Urea has to be broken down to Ammoniacal N, then its broken down to Nitrate N, so yeah its on the slow side. How slow, Im not sure. I hope your plants turn around soon though.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 8, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..
> 
> I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march".
> 
> ...


I spent an hour or so this morning going over every part of this excellent ditty which included pondering over my water and soil analyses. It is worth printing in case it's taken down. I don't think I've seen a better, more concise approach to plant nutrition. Enjoy.....
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm

If the 30-10-10 doesn't green 'em up, something's wrong. Won't happen overnight, but it will happen if you have a decent root system capable of uptake.

UB


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 8, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I spent an hour or so this morning going over every part of this excellent ditty which included pondering over my water and soil analyses. It is worth printing in case it's taken down. I don't think I've seen a better, more concise approach to plant nutrition. Enjoy.....
> http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm
> 
> If the 30-10-10 doesn't green 'em up, something's wrong. Won't happen overnight, but it will happen if you have a decent root system capable of uptake.
> ...


Great link UB. I like that its emphasis is on container plants. Lots of good info all in one place. This stuff should be required reading for everyone interested in or already growing. Educate yourself and dont rely on what everyone on the mj forums say. Theres a few smart folks out there, but most people just repeat what someone else said, and really have no clue one way or the other 

As I was reading through the parts, I got a little confused from a paragraph in part 4, so I went searching for answers. I found a great article concerning CEC and how Bulk Density affects it. It turns out I already had one of their articles bookmarked. Im gonna have to go back and start exploring more of their site. The articles titled _Understanding Plant Nutrition _is great stuff. Ive only read the one below. Can't wait to read the rest. 

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47

I already understood CEC in container gardening wasn't very important for other reasons, now I understand even more how unimportant it is.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 8, 2010)

I found this in part 5 of the articles.


Do orchids require high phosphorus
fertilizers?
A) Phosphorus is needed by the plant to store and
transport chemical and light energy. Although there is
no specific research, it appears that applying between
10 and 20 ppm phosphorus with every irrigation will
supply enough phosphorus to a plant (any plant, not just
orchids) for normal growth and flowering. Once this
sufficient level is reached, then there is not any
particular benefit to applying any more phosphorus.
Thus in this case, there is no benefit to using a high
phosphorus fertilizer.

You can't see it right now, but Im flipping off Bloom Boosters right now . I actually have thought about flowering using only veg nutes, just to see how it'd go. Turns out they've been doing it for quite some time now.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 8, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Thanks for the input and endorsement of my approach... both UB and wyteboi..
> 
> I'm still a little surprised at how resistant this plant seems to be to the fix. She's had one dose of MG 30-10-10 at 1 tsp/gal a week ago, the same dose of MG 24-8-16 two days ago, and the yellowing still appears "on the march".
> 
> ...





DaveCoulier said:


> I found this in part 5 of the articles.
> 
> 
> Do orchids require high phosphorus
> ...


Good link. I'll check it out over a cup of java manana. Thanks.

Yeah, do the experiment.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 8, 2010)

I just saw that the Understanding Plant Nutrition is also written by Bill Argo, so some of the stuff from the orchid site will be repeated in the UPN articles.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 9, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> I found this in part 5 of the articles.
> 
> 
> Do orchids require high phosphorus
> ...


How uncanny. I had just gotten ready to post that particular part here and found you had beat me to it. 

Here's another really important point, balancing foods with water quality:

*First, the ideal fertilizer for any crop, not just
orchids, is one that balances you water quality.
Probably the most important aspect of this comes with
the management of the substrate pH. .......That means that the amount of acidic nitrogen should be balanced by the alkalinity of your irrigation water.

*My well water is neutral in pH, but the alkalinity is high (high Ca bicarbs), so, the 21-7-7 that I sometimes use is a good choice.

...and........

*In addition, an ideal fertilizer should supply a
sufficient amount of each nutrient for growth. That
means that the nutrients contained in the fertilizer
should complement those supplied by the irrigation
water. If the water does not contain a specific nutrient,
like calcium or magnesium, then it needs to be supplied
by the fertilizer. It also needs to be supplied at a
concentration high enough that it influences plant
growth. For example, some 20-10-20 fertilizer contain
magnesium, but the amount supplied is so low that it
really doesnt influence the nutrition of the plant.*


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## burnonehomie (Feb 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...


nice post. +rep


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 9, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Although there is
> no specific research, it appears that applying between
> 10 and 20 ppm phosphorus with every irrigation will
> supply enough phosphorus to a plant (any plant, not just
> ...


Yep, this principle goes full circle back to my original thread post when I said - *The question is - "how much P is enough to support a good flowering response and still retain my leaves?"

*Glad you enjoyed itburnonehomie.

Change gears. About 30 years ago I bought a 1962 book called General Viticulture by Winkler. Yesterday I dusted off that book and while reading the chapter on pruning techniques, which goes into the botany of it all too, guess what point was made regarding vine vigor and capacity? That's right, leaf mass and I quote:


> The capacity of a vine varies directly with the number of shoots that develop. The TOTAL LEAF AREA, not the rate of elongation of the shoots, determines capacity.


That translates across all plant material lines,where leaf mass drives "capacity" or the propensity of a grapevine or any other plant to produce high quality yields, as well as support root growth and other plant parts.

Again, your goal as a grower should be to produce and maintain as much leaf mass until harvest for the best yields.

UB


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## wyteboi (Feb 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Here's another really important point, balancing foods with water quality:
> 
> *First, the ideal fertilizer for any crop, not just
> orchids, is one that balances you water quality.
> ...


Thanks for the links and info! 
I am reading on nutrition and am going to read everything on that site , i imagine.
I am already starting to think the RO/DI water is a waste of time? Its lacking important foods and from my understanding it is "starving" for ions. So i imagine when i use it, it throws the food into a frenzy until the ions are back where they are meant to be? that could change the properties of the food , i guess? 
Sorry guys , i get a lil obsessed with my fish and plants  
My guess is , if i mix or bubble the ro with a lil tap (or even by itself) for a couple days prior to mixing food in (or topping the fish tank off) the ion thing should fix itself. I know alot of this shit is unnessacary to know , but it will all help me in the long run. 
You guys already saved me from gettin too far lost in the bottle/forum bullshit. I am back to the old ways now and my babies love me for it.
This is one of the best threads on the net. 

wb


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## wyteboi (Feb 9, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Again, your goal as a grower should be to produce and maintain as much leaf mass until harvest for the best yields.
> 
> UB


^^^^^ That is what it all boils down to.
I can agree and honestly say i have the hands on to prove that one.

wb


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 9, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> Thanks for the links and info!
> I am reading on nutrition and am going to read everything on that site , i imagine.
> I am already starting to think the RO/DI water is a waste of time? Its lacking important foods and from my understanding it is "starving" for ions. So i imagine when i use it, it throws the food into a frenzy until the ions are back where they are meant to be? that could change the properties of the food , i guess?
> Sorry guys , i get a lil obsessed with my fish and plants
> ...


RO isn't a waste of time. The low EC of it is still quite beneficial. You just should balance your water source with your fertilzer. You can cut RO water with tap water. Anywhere from 50-50, to say 70-30. Not sure which range would be best though.

I know if using RO we often add Cal/Mag supplements to the water often to add back what was lost, but does the addition of Cal/Mag into the RO water form carbonates and bicarbonates? Thats something Im not versed on. 

Wheres Kriegs when you need him


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 9, 2010)

Like I quoted before, the fertilizer and water quality (profile) must complement each other. If you use tap water and soil, then you can get by with something like Peters which has about 8 elements and no Ca. If you use RO water and basic water culture, then you need something like Dyna-Gro that supplies 16 elements, in sufficient quantities to where they'll do the plant some good.


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## Kriegs (Feb 9, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> RO isn't a waste of time. The low EC of it is still quite beneficial. You just should balance your water source with your fertilzer. You can cut RO water with tap water. Anywhere from 50-50, to say 70-30. Not sure which range would be best though.
> 
> I know if using RO we often add Cal/Mag supplements to the water often to add back what was lost, but does the addition of Cal/Mag into the RO water form carbonates and bicarbonates? Thats something Im not versed on.
> 
> Wheres Kriegs when you need him


Right here. This thread is daily reading for me. 

The simple answer is "yes". Whenever you have H2O and CO2 together (always, in real life), you will have bicarbonate. Whether added Ca or Mg will make more depends on your water pH after RO. Assuming a 6.5 pH or thereabouts after RO, you will get some formation of Ca and Mg bicarbonates.

There's a pH "sweet spot" for bicarbonate formation between 5-ish and 7.5ish. Lower pH than 5 favors free Ca/Mg and less bicarbonate. Higher pushes towards true carbonate formation (like calcite - CaCO3)

In the general sense, Ca, Mg, pH, CO2 and bicarbonates are all links of a single chemical chain. When dissolved CO2 is rising, pH is dropping, and Ca and Mg dissociate from the carbonate ion (CO3) and become available. Degassing of CO2 will increase pH, and drive the equation toward precipitation of solid CaCO3 (calcite), or Ca(Mg)CO3 (dolomite). 

I've skipped over a few things, but that's it in a nutshell.

What we want as growers is to get Ca and Mg to our plants. I imagine these supplements are slightly, maybe substantially, acidified to keep the ions freely available until you use them. The acid buffers inherent in soil, or the hydro operator will keep the pH in a range that keeps enough of the Ca and Mg ions free. Only at pH's beyond 8.0 would you have to worry about your added Ca or Mg locking up with something and not getting to your plants.


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## Kriegs (Feb 9, 2010)

BTW, the answer to my previous Q on where to get nitrate N?

Dyna-gro.. Peters, too... no wonder you love that stuff..!


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 9, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Right here. This thread is daily reading for me.
> 
> The simple answer is "yes". Whenever you have H2O and CO2 together (always, in real life), you will have bicarbonate. Whether added Ca or Mg will make more depends on your water pH after RO. Assuming a 6.5 pH or thereabouts after RO, you will get some formation of Ca and Mg bicarbonates.
> 
> ...


Thanks Kriegs for the answer.


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## wyteboi (Feb 10, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Like I quoted before, the fertilizer and water quality (profile) must complement each other. If you use tap water and soil, then you can get by with something like Peters which has about 8 elements and no Ca. If you use RO water and basic water culture, then you need something like Dyna-Gro that supplies 16 elements, in sufficient quantities to where they'll do the plant some good.


So what would your opinion be on ro water, soil and peters? Would i want to go with something like dyna-gro to get back what i lost during ro? I mean of course i will know all this before long because my babies will tell me but i love learning , i like opinions but i love the facts you guys provide. 
Again thanks UB, dave , kriegs and the other advanced folks on here! 

wb


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> So what would your opinion be on ro water, soil and peters? Would i want to go with something like dyna-gro to get back what i lost during ro? I mean of course i will know all this before long because my babies will tell me but i love learning , i like opinions but i love the facts you guys provide.
> Again thanks UB, dave , kriegs and the other advanced folks on here!
> 
> wb


Why bother with RO water when tap water is fine for soil? 

This link explains the relationships better than I can or ever will be able to. http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAWaterQuality.pdf


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## wyteboi (Feb 10, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Why bother with RO water when tap water is fine for soil?
> 
> This link explains the relationships better than I can or ever will be able to. http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAWaterQuality.pdf


Thanks for the link.
I have always used tap, its just when i got lost in the labels , i changed everything, then you got me back on track , but i still own a ro , so i might as well use it till the filters need replaced.
My main concern (in the last few months) is the really strong bleach smell my tap has........i been fuckin with fish and plants for years and a loud clorine smell is fine but this bleach shit aint right. its so strong after running bath water that it smells like the chemical room for public swimming pools.
Dont taste that bad though


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## Kriegs (Feb 10, 2010)

wyteboi said:


> Thanks for the link.
> I have always used tap, its just when i got lost in the labels , i changed everything, then you got me back on track , but i still own a ro , so i might as well use it till the filters need replaced.
> My main concern (in the last few months) is the really strong bleach smell my tap has........i been fuckin with fish and plants for years and a loud clorine smell is fine but this bleach shit aint right. its so strong after running bath water that it smells like the chemical room for public swimming pools.
> Dont taste that bad though


That's raw chorine for sure. This may be a case where you want to leave your MJ water out overnight, but I wonder if even that old bromide is legit.

A lot of municipal systems temporarily go back to treating with raw chlorine gas for times of year when contamination risks are higher. The US has had a really wet winter this year, so your supplier probably added this extra step to remove pathogens. They'll likely quit that when rainfall / snowmelt backs off.

Anyway, it's gaseous chlorine that produces the smell. _Choramine, _a product of systems that treat by using a combination of lime, chlorine, and ammonia, does not smell and does not de-gas when water is left standing overnight.

Chloramines have never been shown to have an adverse affect on any plants. They do exert an extremely fleeting suppression on soil flora, but they repopulate right back - within hours. And it's a _partial_ kill, not total.

Bottom line -- municipal tap water is fine for growing. The quality of most tap water probably, but doesn't always, improves by standing out overnight.


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## Kriegs (Feb 10, 2010)

Hey, UB and crew..

I have seen folks purport that the yellowing of the cotyledons on a MJ plant is a cue to start feeding. Seems to me, those cotyledons are doomed to drop anyways, and "feed me" is not necessarily what the plant means by that.

On the other hand, while they're there, perhaps that's a useful cue they provide? I can't say that I've ever watched the "shrivel and drop" process closely enough to have an inkling on it either way.


What say you?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Hey, UB and crew..
> 
> I have seen folks purport that the yellowing of the cotyledons on a MJ plant is a cue to start feeding.


Sounds like alot of purportin' to me.

Forum rule of thumb - if it's been said in a forum and repeated, then it must be true.


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## blahblahblah123 (Feb 10, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Hey, UB and crew..
> 
> I have seen folks purport that the yellowing of the cotyledons on a MJ plant is a cue to start feeding.


Honestly I think your behind if your just now giving the plant nutes when the cotyledons die..


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## riddleme (Feb 10, 2010)

blahblahblah123 said:


> Honestly I think your behind if your just now giving the plant nutes when the cotyledons die..


Joking, right?


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## Kriegs (Feb 10, 2010)

riddleme said:


> Joking, right?


No doubt... 

blahblahblah?

bwah-hah-hah-hah!


Just razzin' ya, bro... love your avatar, though.

There's no way I'm behind on anything, dude, with these gals. They're beau-yoo-tiful and packing it on everyday. The whole-plant pic is 2 weeks seed from soil; 12/12 out of the gate.


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## Kriegs (Feb 10, 2010)

Some dyna-gro goodies I picked up on my lunch hour -- got FoliagePro for veg and stretch; Liquid Grow for post-stretch flowering. Been reading up on and comparing stuff all over, and I'm stoked about these products -- thanks UB. 

The 12/12 superskunks got a 1/2-dose of the FP today.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Some dyna-gro goodies I picked up on my lunch hour -- got FoliagePro for veg and stretch; Liquid Grow for post-stretch flowering. Been reading up on and comparing stuff all over, and I'm stoked about these products -- thanks UB.
> 
> The 12/12 superskunks got a 1/2-dose of the FP today.


I'd say you're good to go. The rest is up to you regarding balancing plant nutrition along with light, temps, water quality, etc. Don't be afraid to call the tech guys up. They work with the professional folks so you'll get a straight answer.

Have fun,
UB


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## Kriegs (Feb 11, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> No doubt...
> 
> blahblahblah?
> 
> ...


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## businessmen (Mar 2, 2010)

I totally plagerized this from a non cannabis messege board. This guy has some very smart posts though. Dont think I can jump aboard yet, but it looks sound.

Fertilizer Program - Containerized Plants II 
Let me begin with a brief and hopefully not too technical explanation of how plants absorb water from the soil and how they obtain the nutrients/solutes that are dissolved in that water. Most of us remember from our biology classes that cells have membranes that are semi-permeable. That is, they allow some things to pass through the walls, like water and select elements in ionic form dissolved in the water, while excluding other materials like large organic molecules. Osmosis is a natural phenomenon that is natures attempt at creating a balance (isotonicity) in the concentration of solutes in water inside and outside of cells. Water and ionic solutes will pass in and out of cell walls until an equilibrium is reached and the level of solutes in the water surrounding the cell is the same as the level of solutes in the cell. 
This process begins when the finest roots absorb water molecule by molecule at the cellular level from the surface of soil particles and transport it, along with its nutrient load, throughout the plant. I want to keep this simple, so Ill just say that the best water absorption occurs when the level of solutes in soil water is lowest, and in the presence of good amounts of oxygen (this is where I get to plug a well-aerated and free-draining soil), ;o). Deionized (distilled) water contains no solutes, and is easiest for plants to absorb. Of course, since distilled water contains no nutrients, using it alone practically guarantees deficiencies of multiple nutrients as the plant is shorted the building materials (nutrients) it needs to manufacture food, keep its systems orderly, and keep its metabolism running smoothly. 
We already learned that if the dissolved solutes in soil water are low, the plant may be well-hydrated, but starving; however, if they are too high, the plant may have a large store of nutrients in the soil, but because of osmotic pressure, the plant may be unable to absorb the water and could die of thirst in a sea of plenty. When this condition occurs, and is severe enough (high concentrations of solutes in soil water), it causes fertilizer burn (plasmolysis), a condition seen when plasma is torn from cell walls as the water inside the cell exits to maintain solute equilibrium with the water surrounding the cell. 
Our job, because you cannot depend on an adequate supply of nutrients from the organic component of a container soil, is to provide a solution of dissolved nutrients in a concentration high enough to supply nutrients in the adequate to luxury range, yet still low enough that it remains easy for the plant to take up enough water to be well-hydrated and free of drought stress. Electrical conductivity (EC) of, and the level of TDS (total dissolved solids) in the soil solution is a reliable way to judge the adequacy of solutes and the plants ability to take up water. There are meters that measure these concentrations, and for most plants the ideal range of conductivity is from 1.5 - 3.5 mS, with some, like tomatoes, being as high as 4.5 mS. This is more technical than I wanted to be, but I added it in case someone wanted to search "mS" or "EC". Most of us, including me, will have to be satisfied with simply guessing at concentrations, but understanding how plants take up water and fertilizer, as well as the effects of solute concentrations in soil water is an important piece of the fertilizing puzzle. 
Now, some disconcerting news - you have listened to all this talk about nutrient concentrations, but what do we supply, when, and how do we supply them? We have to decide what nutrients are appropriate to add to our supplementation program, but how? Most of us are just hobby growers and cannot do tissue analysis to determine what is lacking. We can be observant and learn the symptoms of various nutrient deficiencies though - and we CAN make some surprising generalizations. 
What if I said that the nutritional needs of all plants is basically the same and that one fertilizer could suit almost all the plants we grow in containers - that by increasing/decreasing the dosage as we water, we could even manipulate plants to bloom and fruit more abundantly? Its really quite logical, so please let me explain. 
Tissue analysis of plants will nearly always show NPK to be in the ratio of approximately 10:1.5:7. If we assign N the constant of 100, P and K will range from 13-19 and 45-70 respectively. (Ill try to remember to make a chart showing the relative ratios of all the other 13 essential nutrients that dont come from the air at the end of what I write.) All we need to do is supply nutrients in approximately the same ratio as plants use them, and in adequate amounts to keep them in the adequate to luxury range at all times. 
Remember that we can maximize water uptake by keeping the concentrations of solutes low, so a continual supply of a weak solution is best. Nutrients dont often just suddenly appear in large quantities in nature, so the low and continual dose method most closely mimics the nutritional supply Mother Nature offers. If you decide to adopt a "fertilize every time you water" approach, most liquid fertilizers can be applied at ¾ to 1 tsp per gallon for best results. If you decide thats too much work, try halving the dose recommended & cutting the interval in half. You can work out the math for granular soluble fertilizers and apply at a similar rate. 
The system is rather self regulating if fertilizer is applied in low concentrations each time you water, even with houseplants in winter. As the plants growth slows, so does its need for both water and nutrients. Larger plants and plants that are growing robustly will need more water and nutrients, so linking nutrient supply to the water supply is a win/win situation all around. 
Another advantage to supplying a continual low concentration of fertilizer is it eliminates the tendency of plants to show symptoms of nutrient deficiencies after they have received high doses of fertilizer and then been allowed to return to a more favorable level of soil solute concentrations. Even at perfectly acceptable concentrations of nutrients in the soil, plants previously exposed to high concentrations of fertilizer readily display these symptoms. 
You will still need to guard against watering in sips, and that habits accompanying tendency to allow solute (salt) accumulation in soils. Remember that as salts accumulate, both water and nutrient uptake is made more difficult and finally impaired or made impossible in severe cases. Your soils should always allow you to water so that at least 10-15% of the total volume of water applied passes through the soil and out the drain hole to be discarded. This flushes the soil and carries accumulating solutes out the drain hole. 
I have recently switched to a liquid fertilizer with micronutrients in a 12:4:8 NPK ratio. Note how closely this fits the average ratio of NPK content in plant tissues, noted above (10:1.5:7). If the P looks a little high at 4, consider that in container soils, P begins to be more tightly held as pH goes from 6.5 to below 6.0, which is on the high side of most container soils pH, so the manufacturer probably gave this some careful consideration. Also, P and K percentages shown on fertilizer packages are not the actual amount of P or K in the blend. The percentage of P on the package is the percentage of P2O5 (phosphorous pentoxide) and you need to multiply the percentage shown by .43 to get the actual amount of P in the fertilizer. Similarly, the K level percentage shown is actually the level of K2O ( potassium oxide) and must be multiplied by .83 to arrive at the actual amount of K supplied. 
To answer the inevitable questions about specialty fertilizers and "special" plant nutritional requirements, let me repeat that plants need nutrients in roughly the same ratio. Ratio is an entirely a separate consideration from dosage. Youll need to adjust the dosage to fit the plant and perhaps strike a happy medium in containers that have a diversity of material. 
If nutrient availability is unbalanced - if plants are getting more than they need of certain nutrients, but less than they need of others, the nutrient they need the most will be the one that limits growth. There are 6 factors that affect plant growth and yield; they are: air water light temperature soil or media nutrients. Liebig's Law of Limiting Factors states the most deficient factor limits plant growth and increasing the supply of non-limiting factors will not increase plant growth. Only by increasing most deficient nutrient will the plant growth increase. There is also an optimum combination?ratio of the nutrients and increasing them, individually or in various combinations, can lead to toxicities. 
When individual nutrients are available in excess, it not only unnecessarily contributes to the total volume of solutes in the soil solution, which makes it more difficult for the plant to absorb water and nutrients, it also often creates an antagonistic deficiency of other nutrients as toxicity levels block a plant's ability to take up other nutrients. E.g., too much Fe (iron) can cause a Mn (manganese) deficiency, with the converse also true, Too much Ca (calcium) can cause a Mg (magnesium) deficiency. Too much P (phosphorous) can cause an insoluble precipitate with Fe and make Fe unavailable. It also interferes with the uptake of several other micro-nutrients. You can see why its advantageous to supply nutrients in as close to the same ratio in which plants use them and at levels not so high that they interfere with water uptake. I know Im repeating myself here, but this is an important point. 
What about the high-P "Bloom Booster" fertilizers you might ask? To induce more prolific flowering, a reduced N supply will have more and better effect than the high P bloom formulas. When N is reduced, it slows vegetative growth without reducing photosynthesis. Since vegetative growth is limited by a lack of N, and the photosynthetic machinery continues to turn out food, it leaves an expendable surplus for the plant to spend on flowers and fruit. Plants use about 6 times more N than P, so fertilizers that supply more P than N are wasteful and more likely to inhibit blooms (remember that too much P inhibits uptake of Fe and many micro-nutrients - it raises pH unnecessarily as well, which could also be problematic). Popular "bloom-booster" fertilizers like 10-52-10 actually supply about 32x more P than your plant could ever use (in relationship to how much N it uses) and has the potential to wreak all kinds of havoc with your plants. 
The fact that different species of plants grow in different types of soil where they are naturally found, does not mean that one needs more of a certain nutrient than the other. It just means that the plants have developed strategies to adapt to certain conditions, like excesses and deficiencies of particular nutrients. 
Plants that "love" acid soils, e.g., have simply developed strategies to cope with those soils. Their calcium needs are still the same as any other plant and no different from the nutrient requirements of plants that thrive in alkaline soils. The problem for acid-loving plants is that they are unable to adequately limit their calcium uptake, and will absorb too much of it when available, resulting in cellular pH-values that are too high. Some acid-loving plants also have difficulties absorbing Fe, Mn, Cu, or Zn, which is more tightly held in alkaline soils, another reason why they thrive in low pH (acid) soils. 
So, If you select a fertilizer that is close in ratio to the concentration of major elements in plant tissues, youre going to be in good shape. Whether the fertilizer is furnished in chemical or organic form matters not a whit to the plant. Ions are ions, but there is one major consideration. Chemical fertilizers are available for immediate uptake while organic fertilizers must be acted on by passing through the gut of micro-organisms to break them down into usable elemental form. Since microorganism populations are affected by cultural conditions like moisture/air levels in the soil, soil pH, fertility levels, temperature, etc., they tend to follow a boom/bust cycle in container culture, which has an impact on the reliability and timing of delivery of nutrients supplied in organic form. Nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains cannot be relied upon to be available when the plant needs them. This is particularly an issue with the immobile nutrients that must be present in the nutrient stream at all times for the plant to grow normally. 
What is my approach? I have been very happy with Miracle-Gro 12-4-8 all purpose liquid fertilizer, or 24-8-16 Miracle-Gro granular all-purpose fertilizer - both are completely soluble. I incorporate a granular micro-nutrient supplement in my soils when I make them (Micromax) or use a soluble micro-nutrient blend (STEM). I would encourage you to make sure your plants are getting all the micro-nutrients. More readily available than the supplements I use is Earth Juices Microblast. Last year, I discovered a fertilizer by Dyna-Gro called Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. It is a 3:1:2 ratio like I like and has ALL the primary macro-nutrients, secondary macro-nutrients (Ca, Mg, S) and all the micro-nutrients. It performed very well for me. 
When plants are growing robustly, I try to fertilize my plants weakly (pun intended) with a half recommended dose of the concentrate at half the suggested intervals. When plants are growing slowly, I fertilize more often with very weak doses. Its important to realize your soil must drain freely and you must water so a fair amount of water drains from your container each time you water to fertilize this way. This year my display containers performed better than they ever have in years past & they were still all looking amazingly attractive at the beginning of Oct when I finally decided to dismantle them because of imminent cold weather. I attribute results primarily to a good soil and a healthy nutrient supplementation program. 
What would I recommend to someone who asked what to use as an all-purpose fertilizer for nearly all their container plantings? If you can find it, a 3:1:2 ratio soluble liquid fertilizer (24-8-16, 12-4-8, 9-3-6 are all 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers) that contains all the minor elements would great. 
How plants use nutrients - the chart I promised: I gave Nitrogen, because it's the largest nutrient component, the value of 100. Other nutrients are listed as a weight percentage of N. 
N 100 
P 13-19 (16) 1/6 
K 45-80 (62) 3/5 
S 6-9 ( 1/12 
Mg 5-15 (10) 1/10 
Ca 5-15 (10) 1/10 
Fe 0.7 
Mn 0.4 
B(oron) 0.2 
Zn 0.06 
Cu 0.03 
Cl 0.03 
M(olybden) 0.003 
To read the chart: P - plants use 13-19 parts of P or an average of about 16 parts for every 100 parts of N, or 6 times more N than P. Plants use about 45-80 parts of K or an average of about 62 parts for every 100 parts of N, or about 3/5 as much K as N, and so on.


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## Kriegs (Mar 2, 2010)

Great capture, businessmen... that pretty much says it all there. I see a few classic UB phrases couched verbatim in there... "ions are ions.." for one.


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 2, 2010)

Nice to see you reading some of Al's(Tapla) work. He has quite a few good threads over at gardenweb.


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## businessmen (Mar 2, 2010)

Yeah the people in the soil forum there are ridiculously smart! Ive been a member there for like 7 years, havent spent much time in the past few years there. Im kinda around the boards when I need help or to brag.  

Im still not sure WTF happened to my grows recently, but now Im thinking a mix of to much P and my hard water. If you wanna try and help me out it'd be mighty gracious of you. I know youve tried but heres where Im at now....

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/299899-ayone-had-problems-indonesian-bat.html


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## DaveCoulier (Mar 3, 2010)

businessmen said:


> Yeah the people in the soil forum there are ridiculously smart! Ive been a member there for like 7 years, havent spent much time in the past few years there. Im kinda around the boards when I need help or to brag.
> 
> Im still not sure WTF happened to my grows recently, but now Im thinking a mix of to much P and my hard water. If you wanna try and help me out it'd be mighty gracious of you. I know youve tried but heres where Im at now....
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/organics/299899-ayone-had-problems-indonesian-bat.html


Looks like UB has pretty much summed it up. Too much nutes fucked things up. Definitely overdid it on P as well. After trying out bloom boosters once, I try to keep the P to a respectable level. Half strength Hydroplex + Tiger Bloom=loss o'foliage immediately.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2010)

Kriegs said:


> Great capture, businessmen... that pretty much says it all there. I see a few classic UB phrases couched verbatim in there... "ions are ions.." for one.


I see alot of what I've been preaching in there, like the use of Foliage Pro, the MG NPK values of Walmart foods, the osmosis thingie, etc.


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## businessmen (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks I guess I thought there was something to the high P foods, since I see them everywhere with unbelievable high P%. So I thought Id get on the bandwagon. I didnt think my organic lower values were that strong. How does anyone ever use those? I guess diluted, and not with tap water of over 700 tds. Ive finally settled on that I locked out my nutes by combining over fertilizing mainly with Phos and high TDS water. I THINK I CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT AGAIN, we will find out in about a month. Just weird that theres not more info out there about this. It was so easy for me to do!


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## wadd (Jun 5, 2010)

Just found this http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2009_0630.pdf showing Advanced Nutrients( Big Bud) in violation on most of the nutrients comparing its label to independent analysis Do notice that Dyna Gro , one of Uncle Bens favourites , is rue to its label. Very interesting I wonder what AN has to say in reply.....


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## wadd (Jun 5, 2010)

Wow good find!! I see again Uncle Bens Dyna-gro Foliage Pro mentioned again


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## GBW (Jun 5, 2010)

20-20-20 pro mix IMO use it always! do the mix of 2Liter bottle of 7Up /2ML instead of regular 5MlL each 2 week

Each time u water u put around 1.5-2ML in a 2Liter(Bottle Cola/7Up..) and u will see Dont forget to ph first and after....incase...giivvvitt TO DA PLaNT!


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 6, 2010)

wadd said:


> Just found this http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2009_0630.pdf showing Advanced Nutrients( Big Bud) in violation on most of the nutrients comparing its label to independent analysis Do notice that Dyna Gro , one of Uncle Bens favourites , is rue to its label. Very interesting I wonder what AN has to say in reply.....


I've been saying Advanced Shysters shouldn't be trusted!


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## [email protected] (Jun 23, 2010)

It took me almost a week but i finally read this whole thread. Its pretty much exactly what I was looking for as a novice, great explanations of why the leaves yellow, which seems to be the number 1 unaddressed problem in growing. I too have the N deficiency and after weeks of searching, now I finally know what it is. Glad I didnt buy a bottle of bloom turbocharger/intercooler or something like that. Instead, i'll be buying a bottle of something with a lot of nitrogen.


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## riddleme (Jun 23, 2010)

does look like a P & K (mostly K) deficiency


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## Dr Gruber (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi Uncle Ben,

I've been trying to read every thread you post and follow your info as best I can.
I was wondering if you could help me diagnose the problem with my Cindrella 99?

It's day 36 of flower now and at about day 32 I noticed some of the leaves at the top of the plant started yellowing and devoloped brown spots.
I'm growing in Fox farm OF soil and used foxfarm Grow Big(6-4-4) during veg and the first 2 weeks of flower.
I ran out of the fox farm for bloom so I started using Biothrive Bloom(2-4-4 i think) and ordered Jacks classic for veg and bloom. I now have the Jacks and have fed them once with it after the problems started.
I'm guessing it might be a shortage of either K or P...what do you think?

Thanks for all the help you offer to all for free UB, it is greatly appreicated.


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## Dr Gruber (Jun 23, 2010)

riddleme said:


> does look like a P & K (mostly K) deficiency
> 
> and would advise deleting the pic with your hand in it as it clearly shows your fingerprint


Thanks riddle,

I just deleted the whole thing then reposted, couldnt figure out how to delete just one photo.

Thanks for the P and K advice.


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## riddleme (Jun 23, 2010)

Dr Gruber said:


> Thanks riddle,
> 
> I just deleted the whole thing then reposted, couldnt figure out how to delete just one photo.
> 
> Thanks for the P and K advice.


and I have now edited mine, your welcome


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 24, 2010)

Dr Gruber said:


> Hi Uncle Ben,
> 
> I've been trying to read every thread you post and follow your info as best I can.
> I was wondering if you could help me diagnose the problem with my Cindrella 99?
> ...


Check for insect pressure, too much salts. Brown necrotic dots on a leaf is a symptom, a warning.

Good luck,
UB


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## Dr Gruber (Jun 24, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Check for insect pressure, too much salts. Brown necrotic dots on a leaf is a symptom, a warning.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Thanks UB!

I do have a small Fungus Gnat problem, I've seen just a few of them so I neem oiled but they are still hanging around. I also flushed yesterday in case it was a build up of salts, hopfully that does the trick.

Thanks Again!


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## riddleme (Jun 24, 2010)

for fungas knats let the soil dry out the larve (babies) eat roots (could be your problem) and they thrive in wet/moist soil you can also cover the top of your soil with rocks or perlite to help keep the top layer dry


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 24, 2010)

Dr Gruber said:


> Thanks UB!
> 
> I do have a small Fungus Gnat problem, I've seen just a few of them so I neem oiled but they are still hanging around. I also flushed yesterday in case it was a build up of salts, hopfully that does the trick.
> 
> Thanks Again!


 Dr Gruber, go buy some mosquito dunks immediately. You can find them at any Lowes or Home Depot in the insecticide section. There are a couple of ways to use it. 

Add a dunk to your reservoir, and keep it in there at all times. Just water like normal, and the bacteria in the dunks will put an end to the fungus gnats. It disrupts the larvae cycle preventing new adults from growing and laying eggs. If you dont have a reservoir to put it in, you can simple crush up the dunks and put a quarter of a teaspoon of it on top of your soil and just water like normal. It'll take 2 weeks to really see a drop in them, and by the end of 3 or 4 weeks your problem will be gone. You may see a lone gnat here and there, but since I have been using them my problem is gone. 

Ive tried some of the things Riddleme said. Sand is better than perlite since its not as course and harder for them to get past, but it makes watering from above just about impossible, so be prepared to water from the bottom up if you go that route. Im not a fan of the drying out technique to try and kill the larvae. That just puts our plants under more stress, and it probably isn't highly effective. 

Also, ditch the Neem Oil. Its useless for killing fungus gnats, ime. Its a pain in the ass to mix up, and stinks all to hell.


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## Dr Gruber (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your replies and advice.

I will try the "dunks"...I agree the Neem oil stinks....didnt want to use it again because of that.
At this point I only see 1 or 2 of them floating around, when I had a Gnat problem on a previous grow I could see 30 or 40 of those suckers flying around.

I want rid of them once and for all so the Dunks sound like good advice.

BTW, where do these things come from...I try so hard to keep it clean but they always show up?
Could it be eggs in the Foxfarm soil that i use?


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 24, 2010)

Dr Gruber said:


> Thanks everyone for your replies and advice.
> 
> I will try the "dunks"...I agree the Neem oil stinks....didnt want to use it again because of that.
> At this point I only see 1 or 2 of them floating around, when I had a Gnat problem on a previous grow I could see 30 or 40 of those suckers flying around.
> ...


30-40 would have been a dream come true for me about 4 weeks ago. As soon as I would open my tent, I would get assaulted by the little fuckers. I put about 10 yellow gnat strips in my tent, and within 3 days they were completely covered. Now, Id be hard pressed to find a gnat buzzing around. 

The gnats pretty much always show up in your soil, or compost that you might buy. I would suggest to always pretreat the soil you buy with a watering solution that contains the mosquito dunks, or to crush them up and add it to your soil and water it in.

I had made up two 18 gallon tubs of soil awhile back, and moistened it with some water from my reservoir that had mosquito dunks in it. Those tubs of soil never developed any gnat problems, yet my plants were infested with them took a few weeks to be rid of the gnats.

Now Im gnat free, and so happy. Getting gnats in your buds is quite annoying. I had that happen on my last grow. Not this time.


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## Dr Gruber (Jun 24, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> 30-40 would have been a dream come true for me about 4 weeks ago. As soon as I would open my tent, I would get assaulted by the little fuckers. I put about 10 yellow gnat strips in my tent, and within 3 days they were completely covered. Now, Id be hard pressed to find a gnat buzzing around.
> 
> The gnats pretty much always show up in your soil, or compost that you might buy. I would suggest to always pretreat the soil you buy with a watering solution that contains the mosquito dunks, or to crush them up and add it to your soil and water it in.
> 
> ...


 
Thats a great idea....i'll be getting those dunks tomorrow, and will treat my soil with them from now on.

With as many as you had, did you see obvious problems they caused?

Now just to get this straight; 1/4 teaspoon spread over the dirt and then watered....how many times do I need to do it?


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## DaveCoulier (Jun 24, 2010)

I never had any problems caused by the gnats. All my plants looked great and were healthy except for one runt, but it was a runt from the moment it cracked the surface of the soil. I didn't have bad gnat problems back then, but it probably didn't help to have to deal with it later in life. I ended up culling it. 

If your plants are already in pots, I would either place the dunk in your water source and water as usual, or if you dont have a reservoir, just crush it up and topdress each pot with 1/4th of a teaspoon.

If your just pretreating soil before using it, you can either moisten your soil with water thats already been treated with the Dunks, or you can just crush up the dunks and mix it into your soil like you would do with any amendment, but you'll still need to water afterwards. 

You'll only need to treat your soil once afaik.


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## Dr Gruber (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks Dave!

And thats great that i only have to treat each plant once.


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## Illumination (Jun 26, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Why bother with RO water when tap water is fine for soil?
> 
> This link explains the relationships better than I can or ever will be able to. http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAWaterQuality.pdf


 Go to this link and READ IT OVER AND OVER!!! For reals!!! Once it clicks you will amaze yourself!!!
Thanx UB after I read and reread this then slept on it all clicked and I use it as a guide to mix my jack's-dynagro personal recipe fert to cause a near perfect ion exchange cycle...UB is da man!!! PERIOD!!!

Namaste'
"A state licensed personal grow...Thank you"


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 27, 2010)

Illumination said:


> Go to this link and READ IT OVER AND OVER!!! For reals!!! Once it clicks you will amaze yourself!!!
> Thanx UB after I read and reread this then slept on it all clicked and I use it as a guide to mix my jack's-dynagro personal recipe fert to cause a near perfect ion exchange cycle...UB is da man!!! PERIOD!!!
> 
> Namaste'
> "A state licensed personal grow...Thank you"


Quite a gem of a site, eh? 

Have fun,
UB


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## Grower Z (Aug 1, 2010)

Great thread Uncle Ben.

I thought you might like this from Maximum Yield magazine. If this article wasn't written about and for Cannabis growers, well than I will eat my hat.

Nutrient Ratios for Modern Crops
by Erik Biksa 2009-08-01

So, now back to the question: &#8220;Who has determined the nutrient values and ratios in your crop feeding program?&#8221; All right, well most folks are likely to say &#8220;the manufacturer.&#8221; Okay, so the manufacturer determined the nutrient ratios. That beckons the question of how they were able to determine what concentrations and ratios of plant nutrient elements to provide for your particular crop and at what times in the vegetative and bloom phases of growth. Well from there you can only guess, unless you have information that says otherwise.

[..]

Due to archaic field crop research crossed over into nutrient formulations intended for modern high producing indoor crops, there are some really huge misconceptions about what is optimal for nutrient ratios in the bloom phase for indoor crops grown in artificial environments. The simplest way to illustrate this fact is to look at one of the most popular types of products in the hydroponics industry, and that&#8217;s the &#8220;bloom booster.&#8221;

The majority of bloom boosters contain very high levels of phosphorous and moderate to lower amounts of potassium. They may also contain other macro and micro elements including magnesium, sulfur and iron. Growers begin to apply these types of products through the early bloom phase and late into flowering prior to &#8220;flushing&#8221; the crop before harvest. There seems to be a general consensus that the modern indoor containerized (or &#8220;systemized,&#8221; if you prefer) plant in the bloom phase needs abundant amounts of phosphorous relative to other nutrients. Well the truth is that they do not, because:

Phosphorous is highly available to containerized or systemized plants grown indoors relative to outdoor conditions where it is quickly leeched away from the root zone via mass flow.

When examining analytical reports charting the nutrient profile of a high yielding indoor crop at harvest (plant tissue analysis) it becomes clear that even in a variety of strains within the same plant type, that the plant requires nearly five times more each nitrogen and potassium relative to phosphorous.​
For example, if the plants elemental profile at harvest time was analyzed to reveal that healthy yields consisted primarily of nitrogen, potassium and calcium relative to phosphorous, why then are growers applying so much phosphorous (relative to other nutrient elements) in the bloom phase, and more importantly, what effect is this over abundance of phosphorous having on crops?

To answer the first part of the question, as indoor growers we are applying too much phosphorous because the recommendations for applications and formulations have been based on outdoor field agriculture practices, which simply don&#8217;t apply directly to indoor gardens. In nature the soil is very deep, and roots do not occupy the entire body of soil as they do in containers, beds or systems found with indoor gardens. Phosphorous leeches from the root zone in natural soils quickly, washing away from the contact zone with plant roots, as it drains with water further into the depths of the earth. To ensure a healthy supply of phosphorous, outdoor conventional field agricultural growers do a sort of &#8220;over-application&#8221; of phosphorous, because it has been determined that much of it will be quickly leeched away from the plant roots; what remains at any given time can be taken up by the crop. From this, we can learn that excessive &#8220;P&#8221; values in our N-P-Ks are not necessary for indoor growers, where phosphorous maintains a high level of contact within the root zone of plants grown in artificial soils and in containers, beds and systems commonly found with intensive indoor growing environments.​


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 1, 2010)

Good read. Contrary to popular belief, cannabis is a weed and should be treated no differently than a tomato or petunia. It is a flowering foliage plant. The question stated in my first post remains, "just how much P is required to _support_ good flowering?" Or to say it another way, "how much of an overdose of P (or K) can there be where leaf chlorosis and/or necrosis is induced?"

For every new crop of noobs, I present a foreign concept - the importance of leaves. Here the grower is thinking only of bud production, which is driven by leaf health and mass, only to use popular forum practices that induce the loss of the very unit that produces what they're after! It's ironical. Check out Advanced going back a couple of pages. Here are these misguided folks with threads about plucking fan leaves off, "double your yields" threads.....all about exposing inner bud sites, yanking or moving fan leaves out of the way and other crap that makes no botanical sense. If you can link to my posts, I've explained the fallacy of these "popular" practices. For example, folks think that it's a lack of light that induces negligible bud production at the bottom of the plant when in reality it's apical dominance, a hormonal response. It doesn't matter whether it's an apple tree, tomato, or cannabis - the top part, the terminal leader(s), is gonna get most of the goodies.

I am now hitting an outdoor plant with high N foods, and still am getting some leaf yellowing. Most of that caused by my inconsistent watering. The poor plant is always in a state of wilting when I water it. It is flowering well however, having seen only a high N food, like the 35-5-10 I'm giving it now. Go figure....


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## djbthunder (Aug 11, 2010)

Can I get some help??? I am one of those advanced nutrient fools. I am a new grower and i dont really understand everything yet, could someone please offer me some help as to what the plant needs during what weeks in the flowering cycle. i see how UB says during the first 2 weeks of flowering the plant needs high N, I guess what im really asking is at what weeks of flowering should i change to new nutes? because i dont really at what stage N,P, or K is important to the palnt.


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## riddleme (Aug 11, 2010)

djbthunder said:


> Can I get some help??? I am one of those advanced nutrient fools. I am a new grower and i dont really understand everything yet, could someone please offer me some help as to what the plant needs during what weeks in the flowering cycle. i see how UB says during the first 2 weeks of flowering the plant needs high N, I guess what im really asking is at what weeks of flowering should i change to new nutes? because i dont really at what stage N,P, or K is important to the palnt.


The plant simply needs good nutes and we as growers need to learn how to read the plants needs and feed it accordingly, that is the problem with rocket fuels and schedules, the schedule is based on their garden not yours and no two gardens are the same.


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## crud (Aug 19, 2010)

the stuff you recommend, Peters Pro Blossom Booster is water soluble. Does this mean i can use it in 5 gallon DWC buckets or an aero setup? soil only?


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## riddleme (Aug 19, 2010)

crud said:


> the stuff you recommend, Peters Pro Blossom Booster is water soluble. Does this mean i can use it in 5 gallon DWC buckets or an aero setup? soil only?


I can answer this, Peters (Jack's) is for soil but they make a hydro nute (I have a friend that uses it) but the info is on the Pro site, here is a thread about it
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/281840-jacks-professional-fertilizer.html


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## crud (Aug 20, 2010)

awesome! thanks riddle


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## docsativa (Sep 3, 2010)

I use earthjuice grow and bloom all the way to harvest. during veg i feed my SB about 2 tsp a gal. As soon as i go 12/12 i feed EJ grow 1tbsp and EJ bloom 2tbsp up until about week four when i start to lower the N and start feeding molasses with the bloom until week six, when i give it another shot of N 2tbsp per gal with 1tbsp bloom not that much run off. on week 7 just bloom and molasses til harvest. I do this with coco and 1 gal water jugs. My harvest is lush and my buds have a sweet light skunky taste. I strongly beleive that N is highly important during flowering because the leaves feed the buds. i used to let my leaves yellow ALOT. now i just keeep it GREEN =)


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## lime73 (Sep 3, 2010)

So the greener @ 2 weeks left, start flushing, the better? I only have one yellow leaf at very bottom, this is good?


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## riddleme (Sep 3, 2010)

docsativa said:


> I use earthjuice grow and bloom all the way to harvest. during veg i feed my SB about 2 tsp a gal. As soon as i go 12/12 i feed EJ grow 1tbsp and EJ bloom 2tbsp up until about week four when i start to lower the N and start feeding molasses with the bloom until week six, when i give it another shot of N 2tbsp per gal with 1tbsp bloom not that much run off. on week 7 just bloom and molasses til harvest. I do this with coco and 1 gal water jugs. My harvest is lush and my buds have a sweet light skunky taste. I strongly beleive that N is highly important during flowering because the leaves feed the buds. i used to let my leaves yellow ALOT. now i just keeep it GREEN =)


Good for you!



lime73 said:


> So the greener @ 2 weeks left, start flushing, the better? I only have one yellow leaf at very bottom, this is good?


Yeppers


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## HowzerMD (Sep 3, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> 30-40 would have been a dream come true for me about 4 weeks ago. As soon as I would open my tent, I would get assaulted by the little fuckers. I put about 10 yellow gnat strips in my tent, and within 3 days they were completely covered. Now, Id be hard pressed to find a gnat buzzing around.
> 
> The gnats pretty much always show up in your soil, or compost that you might buy. I would suggest to always pretreat the soil you buy with a watering solution that contains the mosquito dunks, or to crush them up and add it to your soil and water it in.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your tid-bit on the dunks Dave. I've been interested in trying them out but haven't seen anyone talk about them and haven't bothered to ask either. I'll picking some up soon . I don't have an infestation, save the usual lone gnat from time to time. None-the-less having zero gnats all of the time would be even better.


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## Longtimetoker (Nov 26, 2010)

UB, I have read many of your threads and if anyone on this forum can answer this question I know you can. I was wondering to myself how the scientific community can determine nutrient requirements for plants besides doing controlled grows. If stem, stalk and leaf samples are taken from a plant at different stages of its life, the samples dried and the salts extracted leaving nothing but plant tissue, can the percentage of each salt be used to determine the macro and micro values needed in a fertilizer at a given stage of growth? If not, there should be some kind of correlation though. Is there? Thanks UB, great threads, I love em all!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2010)

Longtimetoker said:


> UB, I have read many of your threads and if anyone on this forum can answer this question I know you can. I was wondering to myself how the scientific community can determine nutrient requirements for plants besides doing controlled grows. If stem, stalk and leaf samples are taken from a plant at different stages of its life, the samples dried and the salts extracted leaving nothing but plant tissue, can the percentage of each salt be used to determine the macro and micro values needed in a fertilizer at a given stage of growth? If not, there should be some kind of correlation though. Is there? Thanks UB, great threads, I love &#8216;em all!


Yes. You have to do tissue analysis. For example, there are 2 times during the growing cycle of grapes where you do tissue elemental proflies using leaf petole samples. http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/leafsampling.pdf

Glad you enjoy the posts!

Good luck,
UB


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## Longtimetoker (Nov 27, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes. You have to do tissue analysis. For example, there are 2 times during the growing cycle of grapes where you do tissue elemental proflies using leaf petole samples. http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/leafsampling.pdf
> 
> 
> Interesting link you directed me to. Thanks UB


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## Longtimetoker (Dec 3, 2010)

UB your PM box is full so I'm posting this here: I want to thank you among others for the help you have given me over the past few months. Please take a look at the below link. I think you may be surprised!


https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/389492-thank-you-xare-little-tommy.html


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## Longtimetoker (Dec 5, 2010)

UB, another question ---
What path do nutrients take after leaving the roots during bloom? Are they directed to where they are needed or do they go to the leaves first for re-distribution? Or, do the nutrients go where they are needed and the excess stored in the leaves. Or is it a little bit of both?


Thanks UB, your wisdom is priceless!


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## Brick Top (Dec 5, 2010)

Longtimetoker said:


> UB, another question ---
> What path do nutrients take after leaving the roots during bloom? Are they directed to where they are needed or do they go to the leaves first for re-distribution? Or, do the nutrients go where they are needed and the excess stored in the leaves. Or is it a little bit of both?
> 
> 
> Thanks UB, your wisdom is priceless!



Not to attempt to speak for Uncle Ben, since he is the King of Growing Kings on RIU, but maybe this might be of some help in answering your question. I am sure Unc' can fill you in on more, and in a more direct manner and fill in a few important details, but maybe this will be a bit of a start for you.. 



*Plants have two different kinds of vessels in their stems to move stuff around, xylem and phloem. Xylem runs from the roots up the stem carrying water and nutrients. Phloem runs both up and down to move sugars hormones, proteins, etc. but mostly sugars. Each part of the plant can be either a sugar source or a sugar sink. Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). **Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers.Remove the source and the sink will be affected.

Photosynthesis occurs in all green parts of plants. The process has two stages, the light reactions and the Calvin cycle, that convert water and carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen. These sugars are later used to power all the processes in the plant, including the synthesis of THC and other cannabinoids. Fan leaves possess the greatest number of stomata, which are small pores or valves on the underside of the leaf which water vapor and carbon dioxide diffuse during transpiration and photosynthesis (carbon fixation). Carbon dioxide first enters the leaf through the stomata and combines with the stored energy in the chloroplasts through a chemical reaction (the Calvin cycle) to produce a simple sugar. This sugar is unloaded into the tissues and transported through tubes in the leaf to supply the synthesized food to other plant parts such as growing or respiring tissues like young leaves, roots, and flowers of the plant meristems. *
* 
Fan leaves store mobile nutrients, these stored nutrients are essential in the later stages of flowering. ** When flushing a plant the fan leaves will lose their color quickly. This is because the nutrients are being mobilized to the atypical meristem (grow tip, bud site). Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development. *


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## Longtimetoker (Dec 5, 2010)

Brick Top said:


> Fan leaves store mobile nutrients, these stored nutrients are essential in the later stages of flowering. [/B]* When flushing a plant the fan leaves will lose their color quickly. This is because the nutrients are being mobilized to the atypical meristem (grow tip, bud site). Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development. *


*


An excellent reply, thank you Brick Top! Your reply has brought up a few more questions but I'm going to ask only one for now concerning the quoted reply above. I understand the need for flushing to prevent salts build up (if to much nutrient has been used) but the part where you say "Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development", I don't understand. Why would flowering increase when the plant switches from one nutrient source, the roots, to another nutrient source, the leaves? Unless this is the plant responding to a "do or die" situations and starts pumping out the flowers to propagate the species. I have seen this happen to Ligustrum and citrus that seem to sense their demise. Before it happens you can pick them out because they are very, overly abundant with bloom and fruit. A month after they are finish fruiting their dead and dry enough for the fireplace. Is this the same thing happening here?*


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## Brick Top (Dec 5, 2010)

Longtimetoker said:


> An excellent reply, thank you Brick Top! Your reply has brought up a few more questions but I'm going to ask only one for now concerning the quoted reply above. I understand the need for flushing to prevent salts build up (if to much nutrient has been used) but the part where you say "*Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development"*, I don't understand. Why would flowering increase when the plant switches from one nutrient source, the roots, to another nutrient source, the leaves? Unless this is the plant responding to a "do or die" situations and starts pumping out the flowers to propagate the species. I have seen this happen to Ligustrum and citrus that seem to sense their demise. Before it happens you can pick them out because they are very, overly abundant with bloom and fruit. A month after they are finish fruiting their dead and dry enough for the fireplace. Is this the same thing happening here?



I don't know if this will answer your question but right now I have a bit of a clouded and rather upset mind to work with, so for the moment it is the best that I can do. Cannabis plants are an annual plant. Their singular purpose to exist is to produce fruits and/or seed to insure future generations and when in flower more and more 'effort' is put into doing just that, to produse fruits or seeds. This process is hormonally induced and begins when the light cycle begins to diminish. Eventually, under conditions related to senescence, the plant will slow photosynthesis on it's own and naturally draw nutrients from fan leaves to relocate energy into reproduction. Since you have plants that are not pollinated the 'effort' does not go to produce seeds but instead there is more production of the individual flowers, seed pods, that make up buds that most people consider to be the actual flower. Annual plants will essentially "flush" themselves, basically to death, all to develop healthy seed, if pollinated, and if not more individual flowers, seed pods, that make up buds. It is a natural and predictable process. Even though they do basically flush themselves to death, by flushing the soil, especially if early enough, it causes the plants to being to 'eat themselves' and go for that last ditch effort to perform their one singular reason to exist. They want to make seeds, as many as possible, so that means more individual flowers, more seed pods, and that means bigger buds because not being pollinated none of the stored food/energy sources are used to produce seeds. It all goes to producing more of what and where the seeds would be produced if pollinated.


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## Longtimetoker (Dec 5, 2010)

Thank you Brick Top! I thought it might be "do or die" or that "last ditch effort you mentioned. Looking around at wildflowers I can see that exact thing happening.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Dec 5, 2010)

Alright, not to break the immediate conversation at hand, but I have a question that may fall into this threads realm. I have 4 plants that are 10 days into flower. They have been showing pistils since day 4 of flower. I use jacks classic ferts, I have the 20-20-20 all purpose, the 10-30-20 flower, and the houseplant special 15-30-15. Now conventional wisdom would tell me to use the flower 10-30-20 (bloom booster), however, from what I gather on this thread, there is no reason to stray from the 20-20-20 unless the plant tells me to correct? Since Im confused about this whole issue, and since I bought it anyway, I have been using the 15-30-15 (only fed twice since intro to 12/12)? I am seeking some expect advice regarding whether my thinking, actions, and decisions are right/wrong/indifferent. The plants have not shown a negative reaction thus far.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2010)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> Alright, not to break the immediate conversation at hand, but I have a question that may fall into this threads realm. I have 4 plants that are 10 days into flower. They have been showing pistils since day 4 of flower. I use jacks classic ferts, I have the 20-20-20 all purpose, the 10-30-20 flower, and the houseplant special 15-30-15. Now conventional wisdom would tell me to use the flower 10-30-20 (bloom booster), however, from what I gather on this thread, there is no reason to stray from the 20-20-20 unless the plant tells me to correct? Since Im confused about this whole issue, and since I bought it anyway, I have been using the 15-30-15 (only fed twice since intro to 12/12)? I am seeking some expect advice regarding whether my thinking, actions, and decisions are right/wrong/indifferent. The plants have not shown a negative reaction thus far.


If the plant has not shown a negative reaction then leave well enough alone. IOW, read your plants. Popular thought aka "conventional wisdom" is quite a bit different than what YOUR plants actually require. Cannabis flowers and yields based on phytochrome hormone changes and the amount of healthy foliage, not necessarily your NPK ratio. Many of my gardens have yielded extremely well using exclusively a high N food from start to finish. It was my only way to produce and maintain the foliage and in the end, that's all that matters. Don't focus on buds, focus your efforts on producing and maintaining a healthy root system and foliage......think outside of the (conventional) box.

Regarding the storage of nutrients/carbos and such.....I presume cannabis follows the same convention as most plants..... that is to say their main storage unit is roots followed by stems. Your visual storage units would be the base of a radish or carrot, a potato, etc.

Happy Holidaze!


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Dec 6, 2010)

Thank you UB that actually clears quite a bit up. Appreciate the time.


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## Rimmer (Jan 17, 2011)

Best Info Iv Ever Read Thanks Alot Man.


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## Rimmer (Jan 17, 2011)

if you dont mind asking one question, well i aint a experianced grower, but i aint a rookie either, got about 5 grows under my belt but all in soil, now im starting my first passive hydro grow, (hempy). now my dads a oldschool grower like yourself, and keeps talking about Peters Excel or somthing, he told me too use crystals of either 20-10-20 npk or 20-20-20 someone else mentioned 15-15-30, dont see that being too good tho. just would like too get your opinion in what one you think would be best. thanks alot. Rimmer


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## riddleme (Jan 17, 2011)

Rimmer said:


> if you dont mind asking one question, well i aint a experianced grower, but i aint a rookie either, got about 5 grows under my belt but all in soil, now im starting my first passive hydro grow, (hempy). now my dads a oldschool grower like yourself, and keeps talking about Peters Excel or somthing, he told me too use crystals of either 20-10-20 npk or 20-20-20 someone else mentioned 15-15-30, dont see that being too good tho. just would like too get your opinion in what one you think would be best. thanks alot. Rimmer


just completed a whole grow with nothing but Peters 20-10-20 came out great


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## Rimmer (Jan 18, 2011)

riddleme said:


> just completed a whole grow with nothing but Peters 20-10-20 came out great


thanks alot man +rep, do you know where i could order it online, or buy it in england, hard stuff to find around?


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## riddleme (Jan 18, 2011)

Rimmer said:


> thanks alot man +rep, do you know where i could order it online, or buy it in england, hard stuff to find around?


http://www.amazon.com/Peters-PETERS-20-10-20-PEATLITE/dp/B002HJ9TCM


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## Rimmer (Jan 18, 2011)

riddleme said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Peters-PETERS-20-10-20-PEATLITE/dp/B002HJ9TCM


thaks bro, much appreciated !


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## Aseret (Feb 1, 2011)

Situation: pH (5.5), Humidity (No measure taken but its humid, Humidity is present), Water Level (reservoir flushed and filled weekly), Temps 75-80 deg, Nutes (GH Gro & Bloom as labeled), and lighting (12/12, 120w Per Plant) is constant.

Problem: Leaves periodically curling like its wilting.

Miscellanea Information: No discoloration in the leaves and plant looks amazingly healthy and lush when not showing the current problem. What else could cause the curling/wilting of the leaves?

Scenario persists for a week then looks healthy and fluctuates back to the problem. Seems to be a repeating process will chow wilting signs for 2-3 days and then healthy for a week and then wilting for 2-3 days and back to healthy. 

Perhaps because I have neglected to use GH "Micro" in combination with gro and bloom or something in the flushing/water cycling process? Greater nutes in the beginning followed by weaker and weaker amounts of nutes prior to water change? So too much nutes early on? Or copper deficiency? Is copper considered in the trace elements of GH Micro?

Wilting occurs at the end of the watering cycle not the beginning.

Possible solution: less nutes at beginning water change but add additional nutes about day 4 in the weekly water cycle.

Also just curious as to how I can induce flowering? Anyone know of some form of catalyst in the bud formation process?


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## Pippy108 (Feb 4, 2011)

Illumination said:


> Go to this link and READ IT OVER AND OVER!!! For reals!!! Once it clicks you will amaze yourself!!!
> Thanx UB after I read and reread this then slept on it all clicked and I use it as a guide to mix my jack's-dynagro personal recipe fert to cause a near perfect ion exchange cycle...UB is da man!!! PERIOD!!!
> 
> Namaste'
> "A state licensed personal grow...Thank you"


This is essential reading for anyone who's really deep in. A lightbulb flashed.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2011)

Aseret said:


> Situation: pH (5.5), Humidity (No measure taken but its humid, Humidity is present), Water Level (reservoir flushed and filled weekly), Temps 75-80 deg, Nutes (GH Gro & Bloom as labeled), and lighting (12/12, 120w Per Plant) is constant.
> 
> Problem: Leaves periodically curling like its wilting.
> 
> ...


What's the NPK?

It's a moisture issue regarding the wilting. Your call, see my sig line.

Flowering response is a hormonal thingie dependent on day/night length.

UB
..


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## Da skunky monkey (Feb 22, 2011)

i am in 4 weeks of lowering and i have dosed them with 0 49 32 how do i correct this


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## seasmoke (Feb 22, 2011)

Lots of water.


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## PiniPon (Mar 15, 2011)

Wow , great job UB , thank you! I traslade my quest to this thread :


*Hi people , im interesting in peters products. I live in Argentina and recently i bought one with composition 4-25-35 , for plants in flower period outdoor.

For next time , which products of peters do you recommend ? For veg. period i want to try jacks classic crystal green ( 9-13-22 ) but here in Argentina i don´t know if some local import it.

And for flower period this i bought recently i don´t know if is exactly the best. 

I really appreciated your comments!

Bye *


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2011)

PiniPon said:


> Wow , great job UB , thank you! I traslade my quest to this thread :
> 
> 
> *Hi people , im interesting in peters products. I live in Argentina and recently i bought one with composition 4-25-35 , for plants in flower period outdoor.
> ...


To be on the safe side, I'd buy a 20-20-20.

Bueno bye,
Tio Bendejo


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## PiniPon (Mar 16, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> To be on the safe side, I'd buy a 20-20-20.
> 
> Bueno bye,
> Tio Bendejo


I tested by 5 days ( then plant sex male ) with a peters 20-20-20 for veg. period and i saw nice colour and aspect.

For veg. you recommend 20-20-20 ? And for flower is right what i choose ? 4-25-35.


Thanks for reply!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2011)

PiniPon said:


> I tested by 5 days ( then plant sex male ) with a peters 20-20-20 for veg. period and i saw nice colour and aspect.
> 
> For veg. you recommend 20-20-20 ? And for flower is right what i choose ? 4-25-35.
> Thanks for reply!


You choose what will maintain health leaf color and health. A 20-20-20 will do that. A 4-25-35 is likely to induce leaf yellowing and necrosis.

Good luck,
UB


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## PiniPon (Mar 16, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> You choose what will maintain health leaf color and health. A 20-20-20 will do that. A 4-25-35 is likely to induce leaf yellowing and necrosis.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


I choose that cause i didn´t want too much N. Can i post pics to see what comes next ?

Thank you again!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2011)

PiniPon said:


> I choose that cause i didn´t want too much N. Can i post pics to see what comes next ?
> 
> Thank you again!


Sure you can post pix. Why do you believe the application of N is a bad thing during flowering?

UB


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## PiniPon (Mar 16, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sure you can post pix. Why do you believe the application of N is a bad thing during flowering?
> 
> 
> UB



Cause retards flowering period i supposed , but i was a little confused still now.. Is a good idea to add a little N now before application of peters ?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2011)

PiniPon said:


> Cause retards flowering period i supposed , but i was a little confused still now.. Is a good idea to add a little N now before application of peters ?


The 20-20-20 will work. I recommend you get a book on indoor growing.

UB


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## PiniPon (Mar 16, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> The 20-20-20 will work. I recommend you get a book on indoor growing.
> 
> UB


I read a few , but with peters NPK i don´t have so much parameters and here in argentina these product is new and the locals get it from a place i don´t know exactly. Extra the plants i put the 4-25-35 were in a poor state i didn´t get other solution.

Thanks altought!


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## Dr Gruber (Mar 16, 2011)

PiniPon said:


> I read a few , but with peters NPK i don´t have so much parameters and here in argentina these product is new and the locals get it from a place i don´t know exactly. Extra the plants i put the 4-25-35 were in a poor state i didn´t get other solution.
> 
> Thanks altought!


Ive run the 20-20-20 all through Veg and flower...it works great. I also have the 30-10-10 and the 10-30-20 (i think thats it) for when they look like they need something more specific then the general purpose.

And the best part is you dont have to spend an arm and a leg for it.

Thanks UB!


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## PiniPon (Mar 16, 2011)

Dr Gruber said:


> Ive run the 20-20-20 all through Veg and flower...it works great. I also have the 30-10-10 and the 10-30-20 (i think thats it) for when they look like they need something more specific then the general purpose.
> 
> And the best part is you dont have to spend an arm and a leg for it.
> 
> Thanks UB!


Thanks! I will try in next plants 20-20-20 for both stages. But i supposed is better use a combination of two differentes composition of nutes.

You use both products and also only 20-20-20. When did you see best results ? Now what are you using ?


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## medimaker (Mar 16, 2011)

+rep Uncle Ben

Hi gang!

A quick thank you to Uncle Ben for this absolutely amazing thread. Plus rep bro 
Its taken me a few days to get to the end of this thread but I'm glad I did. I'm a believer now in keeping it green.
Unfortunately I've been feeding my plants way too much crap, all my flowering plants are yellowing from the bottom up and the oldest are the worst with the most leaves dropped. 

A quick trip to Walmart has only these 2 products on the shelf

1. Schultz All Purpose 20-30-20
water soluble with micro nutes.
http://www.schultz.com/NR/exeres/D4A3AEC1-AC17-416F-996F-DA333F074C54.htm

2. Plant Prod Ultimate 15-30-15 Flowering plant fertilizer 
with micro nutes
http://msds.plantprod.com/document/805

I know I have to get off the grow shop crap I'm using but I dont know which of the above would be the better choice to green up and stop the pattern. 

I'm currently 2-3 weeks away from harvesting a few plants, and about 4-5 weeks away from the rest. Soilless mix in 5gal containers. Currently use generic 2 part and a couple additives, sealed room with controlled environment.

Two questions please if I may;

1. Which of the above products would be a better fit? or would have a more readily available form of N? The Schultz says to use every watering and the other says to use only every 2 weeks. I find that confusing still.

2. What is the best way to transition from my expensive crap to a proper diet for my babies? Or can I just pass a few liters of water through the 5gal pots and switch.

Awesome thread


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

You're welcome!



Dr Gruber said:


> Ive run the 20-20-20 all through Veg and flower...it works great. I also have the 30-10-10 and the 10-30-20 (i think thats it) for when they look like they need something more specific then the general purpose.


Way to go....what I've been preaching for years! Those 2 NPK values is all you need, mix and match or use alone to suit the current growth of your plants.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2011)

Happy you made it through and are learning something.



medimaker said:


> A quick trip to Walmart has only these 2 products on the shelf
> 
> 1. Schultz All Purpose 20-30-20
> water soluble with micro nutes.
> ...


Thanks!

N promotes the production AND maintenance of healthy green foliage. That last emphasis is very important. N supports foliage during flowering and not at the expense of flowering, quite the contrary. It's foliage that produces bud. Ya'll hearing me? 

Soooooo don't eliminate this macro. Most of the oil companies eliminate N or downplay it in their flowering foods. Why? "Because that's what people expect". No shit, it's true and a pretty lame excuse for good plant care.

Another good food which I used today as a transplant solution is Miracle Grow's Tomato food available at Wallymart. A 18-18-21. It's high in urea, a slow release and non burning ammonical form of N and complete regarding chelated micros, plus it contains a soil surfactant.

Good luck,
UB


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## Dr Gruber (Mar 17, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes and its only because youve been preaching it that i finally caught on to it. Funny thing is I had such a hard time believing it even while I watched my leaves yellow and fall. Somtimes you just have to hit the donkey on the head with a 2x4 and then he will get it.

Thanks UB for all the helpful info...if you really do get banned from here it will be a loss to all at RIU.


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## PiniPon (Mar 17, 2011)

Thank UB , now i can see more clearly the info. I made a mistake choosing a npk low in N for flowering stage. Now i will go to get the three compositions and try to act like Dr gruber said. 

Thanks to all!


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## medimaker (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks UB,

I'm going to go with the 20-30-20.
It has more N for the same amount of P than the other brand. Plus it says to use every time I water so that will give me the ability to adjust as the plants respond, instead of few and far between style feedings.
It does say micro is included but doesn't list the secondary nutes.

Its time to feed them so I'll start with 3/4 serving


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## medimaker (Mar 17, 2011)

Dr Gruber said:


> Thanks UB for all the helpful info...if you really do get banned from here it will be a loss to all at RIU.


Banned?


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## riddleme (Mar 17, 2011)

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket and you find yourself looking into all the cannabis snake oils and magic potions that are out there take a look at this,,,,,,,,,,

JR Peters will take a sample of your soil and a sample of your water and custom design a nute for you, that's right customed designed to work at peak performance in YOUR garden and the price is still cheaper than the freakin snake oils

service available here
http://www.jrpeterslab.com/

and while your there check out the library, full of great info with no myths or BS


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## Dr Gruber (Mar 17, 2011)

riddleme said:


> If you have money burning a hole in your pocket and you find yourself looking into all the cannabis snake oils and magic potions that are out there take a look at this,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> JR Peters will take a sample of your soil and a sample of your water and custom design a nute for you, that's right customed designed to work at peak performance in YOUR garden and the price is still cheaper than the freakin snake oils
> 
> ...


Thats Sweet!
Thanks Riddle..i will check that out.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

Hi guys, I'm thinking this is the place to ask this question. I'm at average about a month from seed, 5 weeks on one and i just started feeding my girls about 8 days ago. Last time I watered, I gave them Jack's 20-20-20 at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and they loved it and are growing fast. I'm in veg and waiting for a few to catch up a little and plan to turn to flower the last day of march..if it matters. I grow in organic soil from a nursery which I threw a bunch of vermiculite, perlite, worm castings, and volcanic sand into. the original soil is peet based, there is a picture of the bag here. 

I was planning on raising the nutes to 3/4 teaspoon per gallon when I water tonight. I'm pretty sure that would be ok as i don't want to burn them of course. I'll get pics then if anyone cares to see them. When I water, I water until a little water runs out the bottom, they are not dryed out, but the top of the soil is dry, about the first 1.5 inches. They are in 3 gallon smart pots. I saw daniels posted that he was using Jack's at 1/2 teaspoon per quart. That seems like a lot, but i think he does the make it rain thing with his. I can't do it that way. It's too inconvenient. 

So my question is, I want to give them the best boost i can and get them ready for flower in about 12 days. I have the following things available to me. Superthrive, jack's classic acid special 17-6-6, balanced 20-20-20, and bloom booster 10-30-20. I also have medina hastogro fish emulsion with soil activator 6-12-6. Any recomendatons. Or do you need to see them, or am i on my own...lol sns View attachment 1499865


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## riddleme (Mar 17, 2011)

the 1/2 teaspoon of 20-20-20 is great and you never really have to do anything else unless you wanna push em, I have gone as much as 2 teaspoons per gallon of Jacks without problems but if you push your gonna get a bit of burn, at the 1st sign of tip burn I back off. A friend of mine only does the 1/2 teaspoon thing and has awesome healthy plants, never has burn but his buds never get as big as mine and I have told him if you want em bigger ya gotta feed em, LOL he refuses cause he doesn't wanna burn em


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

riddleme said:


> the 1/2 teaspoon of 20-20-20 is great and you never really have to do anything else unless you wanna push em, I have gone as much as 2 teaspoons per gallon of Jacks without problems but if you push your gonna get a bit of burn, at the 1st sign of tip burn I back off. A friend of mine only does the 1/2 teaspoon thing and has awesome healthy plants, never has burn but his buds never get as big as mine and I have told him if you want em bigger ya gotta feed em, LOL he refuses cause he doesn't wanna burn em


An observation I made is that the very very tip of the leaves there is a tiny bit of brown.Just a very tiny bit, The first time I fed them, I did 1/4 teaspoon per gallon, then the next time which was the last time, I did 1/2. sns


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

should I do plain water this time? sns


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## riddleme (Mar 17, 2011)

smoke n strum said:


> should I do plain water this time? sns


either or, up to you and how you wanna run your garden, I look for improved vigor, ie; increased water usage, going from every 4 days down to every 3, down to every 2, and growth spurts going up, 1/2 inch up to an inch etc to gauge how much I feed em 

IMO watching plant response is so much more effective than meters and testing equipment


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## smoke n strum (Mar 17, 2011)

riddleme said:


> either or, up to you and how you wanna run your garden, I look for improved vigor, ie; increased water usage, going from every 4 days down to every 3, down to every 2, and growth spurts going up, 1/2 inch up to an inch etc to gauge how much I feed em
> 
> IMO watching plant response is so much more effective than meters and testing equipment


I like that answer, I'm gonna one with plain water, one with 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and one with 3/4 teaspoon per and see what happens. Unless i change my mind. lol.. thanks for the help rm. sns


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## medimaker (Mar 19, 2011)

Hey guys, plants are doing great since switching to schultz 20-30-20 all purpose. Yellowing has appeared to stop progressing up and all the healthy leaves are up at a nice angle smiling. 

My girlfriend also thanks you since I'm no longer spending so much time mixing and ph'ing 

The schultz mixes at 6.9 - 7.0 is that ok or should I drop it? 
That would save so much time for more gardening and less mixing......epic!


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## Dr Gruber (Mar 19, 2011)

medimaker said:


> Hey guys, plants are doing great since switching to schultz 20-30-20 all purpose. Yellowing has appeared to stop progressing up and all the healthy leaves are up at a nice angle smiling.
> 
> My girlfriend also thanks you since I'm no longer spending so much time mixing and ph'ing
> 
> ...


in my opinion that PH is good, but wait until the more experienced grower respond.


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## smoke n strum (Mar 29, 2011)

I added jack's 30-10-10 to my arsenal after re-reading this. I want more green! Thanks UB! sns


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 29, 2011)

That 30-10-10 is a great Ace in the hole in times of (plant) needs!

Have fun


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## Al Dente (Apr 1, 2011)

Thanks for the informative thread. I'm on my first grow, bag ladies, going on 4 weeks of 12/12. In Roots Organic dirt, no ferts during veg. I started adding 1 tsp 1-4-5 per gallon (Botanicare Pure Bloom) plus a tsp molasses. Started seeing the bottom leaves turn yellow and drop off, though I thought that was normal. Also some curling under on the taller plants. I've tried spraying water on the leaves of those plants but not sure that's a good idea because of the buds but it seems like the fastest way of getting moisture to those leaves. Anyway, after reading this thread I decided to give them more N so gave them plain water, then next water gave them 1/3 cup urine (home brewed) in about 1.5 gal of water plus molasses. Today there seems to be some improvement, less folding, more perkiness in general and no more bottom leaves yellowing. Urine again tomorrow, then maybe another Bloom feeding plus urine if there aren't any yellow leaves or folding. Does this sound like I'm on the right track? Comments much appreciated.


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## smoke n strum (Apr 1, 2011)

piss on it. ur gross dude... i know it works but it still sucks and u want attention
fertilizer is cheap. go to the store.


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## elfroggo (Apr 2, 2011)

Thanks Uncle Ben for all the great info in this post. I've been growing almost a year now, I remember reading this in the _very_ beginning and it's basically what I was doing already so I continued and my plants turned out great! I really like the Jacks classic, which at the time I was only using because I had some around for other plants. BUT after my first harvest I decided to follow the hype and try to "maximize my yield", tried a bunch of boosters and such and there was nothing but problems, most of them outlined thoughout this post. I hated seeing my leaves die off, I've always found something wrong with that, I see it as the equivalent to letting my fingers die and fall off. I have since gone back to Jacks products and will stick with them. They work and they're reasonably priced. Green until chop is how I do it. Much bigger yields, the plants are sooooo much happier, and I don't feel like Im torturing my babies


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 3, 2011)

Al Dente said:


> I started adding 1 tsp 1-4-5 per gallon (Botanicare Pure Bloom) plus a tsp molasses. Started seeing the bottom leaves turn yellow and drop off, though I thought that was normal.


Go back to the first post.



elfroggo said:


> ......BUT after my first harvest I decided to follow the hype and try to "maximize my yield", tried a bunch of boosters and such and there was nothing but problems, most of them outlined thoughout this post. I hated seeing my leaves die off, I've always found something wrong with that, I see it as the equivalent to letting my fingers die and fall off. I have since gone back to Jacks products and will stick with them. They work and they're reasonably priced. Green until chop is how I do it. Much bigger yields, the plants are sooooo much happier, and I don't feel like Im torturing my babies


Yep, it's all a racket - the "boosters", charts, schedules, etc. It's foliage that drives production, not oil companies.

Good luck,
UB


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## Al Dente (Apr 3, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Go back to the first post.


It appears you didn't read my post past the first couple of sentences, which were just background info about what I was doing/thinking before I read through this entire thread from the beginning. I am hoping for feedback about what I started doing after that point. To recap, I stopped the 1-4-5, flushed with plain water, then started feeding with urine (which according to the analysis I read has much more N than P). My plan is to continue with very dilute urine and molasses on all feedings (every other day at this point) flush when needed, and maybe toss in a tsp of 1-4-5 every 3rd feeding or so to make up for low phosphorus in the urine.

The only reason I am feeding at all is that there is some potbinding going on, and I don't have room to pot up from the 1 gal containers without putting some of my budding beauties out in the dark. Potting up would be my first choice but since there's no room, they need to be fed, no? Would it make sense to top dress with guano or something like that to give more timed release nutrients between feedings? Also, would it be helpful to pull them out, cut the circling roots and then replace them in the same containers, or would that cause more stress than it would be worth?

TIA for any helpful advice.

PS. This is my most stressed plant. It had lost 2 big fans and a couple of small ones from down low. Still some leaf cupping and a bit of yellowing on the lower leaves, but it looks better now after flushing and 2 urine feedings than it did before.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 5, 2011)

Al Dente said:


> It appears you didn't read my post past the first couple of sentences, which were just background info about what I was doing/thinking before I read through this entire thread from the beginning. I am hoping for feedback about what I started doing after that point. To recap, I stopped the 1-4-5, flushed with plain water, then started feeding with urine (which according to the analysis I read has much more N than P). My plan is to continue with very dilute urine and molasses on all feedings (every other day at this point) flush when needed, and maybe toss in a tsp of 1-4-5 every 3rd feeding or so to make up for low phosphorus in the urine.


I'd stick to a conventional food, not urine. For starts, did you add nitrifying bacteria to the drench? What you're doing is not practical. Go with a balanced 1-1-1 if you're not sure.

Good luck,
UB


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## Al Dente (Apr 5, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd stick to a conventional food, not urine. For starts, did you add nitrifying bacteria to the drench? What you're doing is not practical. Go with a balanced 1-1-1 if you're not sure.


Thanks for the response. Why does urine need additional bacteria but not conventional (commercial?) organic ferts? Are there major differences in the form of nitrogen? What do you think the chances are that Roots Organic potting soil doesn't have a good supply of these bacteria already? If it's deficient, would topdressing with household compost (ours has yard waste, vegetable peelings, chicken coop sweepings) supply them?


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## TreeGear (May 28, 2011)

Does anyone use Jack's for Hydro? I see the 30-10-10 Jacks contains no Mg also. Isn't that an issue? I have previously run the Lucas formula from start to finish, 1-2 ratio of GH micro to bloom which gives a NPK ratio of 5-10-9. (fairly good results, slight yellowing on bottom leaves) Based on what I have learned from Ben, I am going to run 2 parts GH micro to 1 part bloom which gives me a 10-5-9 ratio, i'll run this through veg and till the end of stretch and then switch back to the Lucas (5-10-9) for weeks 4-9. I wouldn't mind trying Jacks bloom booster 1-3-2 just to give it a shot plus I think $35 for a 10 lb bag probably is a lot cheaper than $120 for 8 gallons of GH...just can't find anyone using it in hydro. 
As for Bloom boosters, I have tried those and they always tend to make my plants look like they are dying, i do get some extra growth in flowers but it tends to be rooster tail type growths that ruin the flower appearance. Strain like OG, Diesel or 707 that have little vegetation to start with seem to get dry flowers from use too as the leaves that start dying are the ones on the flower sites. Anyway, have used them twice and don't like them, not even in smaller ratios. Healthy plants are the way to go. Biggest, lushest, greenest plants always have the best yields. Anyway whole has done a few cycles can tell you that. This will be the first cycle I keep N in a higher range throughout the stretch and I'm expecting great results. It seems like common sense not to pull the N away right before the plant doubles or triples in size. BTW... I talked to someone at Harborside Health in Oakland and they claim they won't even sell anything where bloom boosters were used cause it screws up the trichs. 
The best feeding program is the simplest. Correct ph, correct ppm, correct NPK ratio for the cycle your plant is in. The only thing I have added to my GH concoction is H202 to add oxygen to the resevoir due to warm water temps being less able to hold oxygen. Not sure if this works but it keeps my resevoir really clean and algae at bay.


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## Wetdog (May 28, 2011)

Jack's has a hydro formulation.

Wet


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## TreeGear (May 30, 2011)

By formulation do you mean a separate product? or just instructions for hydro use on the back of the containers? I've never actually seen the product, the hydro stores are only full of stuff I don't need. have you run it before in hydro? I've googled around and can't seem to find anyone who's tried it. Found a few guys who use urine but no jacks. lol


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## Harrekin (May 30, 2011)

Al Dente said:


> Thanks for the response. Why does urine need additional bacteria but not conventional (commercial?) organic ferts? Are there major differences in the form of nitrogen? What do you think the chances are that Roots Organic potting soil doesn't have a good supply of these bacteria already? If it's deficient, would topdressing with household compost (ours has yard waste, vegetable peelings, chicken coop sweepings) supply them?


Not all nitrogen is "just nitrogen" to begin with...you'd need nitrifying bacteria to break the nitrogen salts in your urine down to something which is usable to the root hairs in your soil. If you dont add nitrifying bacteria, the naturally occurring bacteria on (actually in to be honest) your roots wont be able to break down the ureic nitrogen salts fast enough, and you will have BIG salt buildups in your soil.

Plus man, do you smoke cigarettes? Eat foods with mad preservatives in them? Red Bull? All of these things metabolised by your liver can come out as some pretty fucking nasty shit in your urine, which your giving to your plant, which your eventually smoking. All this "shit" for the want of a better word is filtered out before it can reach "the rest of the body" by your liver for a reason...if you smoke it it goes directly to the bloodstream and bang into the blood brain barrier/other sensitive "systems"...Im full of hardcore brownies and rambling a bit, but you dont wanna use urine as a fertiliser in a world where for even $10 you can get a bottle of "tomato feed" or whatever generically named bullshit your local place sells, urine is full of toxic shit filtered out for a reason, hard for the plant to use and generally to grow a plant whose product is worth more than gold per ounce not really appropriate for practical/moral/health reasons. 

That is unless you live a totally pure life, and your piss is totally free of contaminents? Cos I wouldnt trust my piss to drink/smoke, and I live a pretty healthy life!

EDIT: In a survival situation, who knows, I might trust it more then...but not when Im living it up smoking in my warm house, fresh water, store nearby and other such "luxuries".


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## Wetdog (May 30, 2011)

TreeGear said:


> By formulation do you mean a separate product? or just instructions for hydro use on the back of the containers? I've never actually seen the product, the hydro stores are only full of stuff I don't need. have you run it before in hydro? I've googled around and can't seem to find anyone who's tried it. Found a few guys who use urine but no jacks. lol


A separate product. They have something like 60+ different formulations. Try google again, Jack's Classic, Jack's Pro, or J.R. Peters Company. NOT the Peters name, some other company acquired the name (Jack's used to be Peters), but it is an entirely different product.

I'll see if I can find the link.

www.jacksclassic.com
www.jacksprofessional.com
J.R. Peters, Inc.

Any of those will get you where you want to go.

Wet


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## Wetdog (Jun 8, 2011)

Did you check out the Jack's site?

Wet


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## TreeGear (Jun 9, 2011)

Yes, thx. Looks like Jacks professional is the one but its not really clear whether its for hydro or not, just says water soluble. If that is the right one, you need about 2.5 lbs of it to get 1250ppm in a 50 gal rez which isn't really gonna be any cheaper.


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## Bigtroop (Jun 9, 2011)

What is wrong with trying to teach a little botany with his answer's. Why is it not OK to try and show a new grower that there is more to growing than marketing hype and fancy Nute names. I think the OP does an excellent job of letting the grower no "it is just a plant and not some alien thing sent here for us to worship."


Without the help of easy going and thought provoking individuals as UB and his friends I would have easily fallen into the trap. I was about to go purchase foxfarms soil and nutes and the hole bit without ever really knowing what was actually in the packaging or even what the plants needed. I was going to blindly buy and use thinking that the product makers new what they were doing. Now I have a little understanding of what n.p.k. actually is and will utilize this information for years to come....


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## Al Dente (Jun 9, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> Not all nitrogen is "just nitrogen" to begin with...you'd need nitrifying bacteria to break the nitrogen salts in your urine down to something which is usable to the root hairs in your soil.


You mean the urea? Urea is a common primary source of nitrogen in commercial ferts. Is it different from urea in urine? Also if what you say is true I should have had deficiencies in my grow. But you be the judge. Take a look at my grow and tell me if the plants look deficient or locked out.



> Plus man, do you smoke cigarettes? Eat foods with mad preservatives in them? Red Bull?


No. I dont use tobacco (except maybe 3-4 nice cigars a year) I drink a little wine and 1 cup of coffee in a day, eat all organic/paleo, almost no factory farmed meat or veggies, no junk food or junk beverages ever, no black market pot and no pharmaceuticals.


> a fertiliser in a world where for even $10 you can get a bottle of "tomato feed" or whatever generically named bullshit your local place sells, urine is full of toxic shit filtered out for a reason, hard for the plant to use and generally to grow a plant whose product is worth more than gold per ounce not really appropriate for practical/moral/health reasons.


Ok, what makes you so sure the source of urea in commercial ferts is "pure". We!re talking factory farmed animal waste, sewage, industrial petrochemicals. No thanks. I know exactly what goes into my ferts.


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## Wetdog (Jun 9, 2011)

TreeGear said:


> Yes, thx. Looks like Jacks professional is the one but its not really clear whether its for hydro or not, just says water soluble. If that is the right one, you need about 2.5 lbs of it to get 1250ppm in a 50 gal rez which isn't really gonna be any cheaper.


If in hydro, go with another favorite, Dyna-Gro. It was developed for hydro. Although I'm in dirt, I use several Dyna-Gro products. I've used Jack's for well over 30 years, and Dyna-Gro for around 20.

UB mentions DG quite a bit along with Jacks. Both are widely used by commercial nurserys/greenhouses.

Wet


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## Harrekin (Jun 11, 2011)

Al Dente said:


> You mean the urea? Urea is a common primary source of nitrogen in commercial ferts. Is it different from urea in urine? Also if what you say is true I should have had deficiencies in my grow. But you be the judge. Take a look at my grow and tell me if the plants look deficient or locked out.
> 
> No. I dont use tobacco (except maybe 3-4 nice cigars a year) I drink a little wine and 1 cup of coffee in a day, eat all organic/paleo, almost no factory farmed meat or veggies, no junk food or junk beverages ever, no black market pot and no pharmaceuticals.
> Ok, what makes you so sure the source of urea in commercial ferts is "pure". We!re talking factory farmed animal waste, sewage, industrial petrochemicals. No thanks. I know exactly what goes into my ferts.


The Ureic nitrogen in commercially made ferts is completely different to the urea in your piss,it's one ingredient in many!I can't believe you don't understand the difference?! Just keep pissing on your plants man,enjoy smoking your piss weed. I'll buy sterilised, processed and filtered nutes for my plants.

By the way bullshit on what you said above,what do you actually eat?Do you not take medicine when your sick? Never been to a supermarket/grocery store?


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## easyruss (Jun 11, 2011)

thank you all!


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## Al Dente (Jun 14, 2011)

Harrekin said:


> The Ureic nitrogen in commercially made ferts is completely different to the urea in your piss,it's one ingredient in many!I can't believe you don't understand the difference?!


Urea is urea. Same chemical formula whether it's in Miracle Grow or pee. You might believe there's a difference but plants don't.


> Just keep pissing on your plants man,enjoy smoking your piss weed. I'll buy sterilised, processed and filtered nutes for my plants.


I get it, you need to have everything processed, plastic wrapped and sold by a major corporation or it's just too scary for you. Here's a friendly tip: try a little less TV.


> By the way bullshit on what you said above,what do you actually eat?Do you not take medicine when your sick? Never been to a supermarket/grocery store?


How is that bullshit? I eat food, you know, meat, veggies, eggs, fish etc. In my area most supermarkets have organic dairy and produce, though I mostly shop at my local organic food co-op and get meat from a farm that raises free-range beef, pork and raw organic dairy. I raise my own chickens for eggs and feed them organic feed. I cook and am also part owner of a restaurant that sources its meat and veggies from local organic farms. Since my diet is good, I rarely get sick, and when I do there are lots of good organic herbal remedies (cannabis being one of them) that are at least as effective than the chemical crap big pharma sells and aren't toxic.

What do you eat?


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## TreeGear (Jun 16, 2011)

So based on previous suggestions in this thread, i have been planning on keeping my veg nutes (2-1-1) in my resevoir till the stretch is over (3 weeks) before I switch to 1-3-2. While at my local hydro store today, I happened to mention this to the owner and he claims that since this will cause the plant to stretch more, I will have less flowering time and therefore end up with a smaller yield. I'm thinking my yield will be better, any opinions? I'm in a tray, 2 gal. pots with hydroton with a cocomat underneath if it makes any difference, not in soil (btw...epic combo I just tried out if anyone is looking for new medium setups...roots out of control...filled the pots AND tray in 25 days from tiny 2 inch clones...huge upgrade from rockwool slabs on a mat)


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## Milovan (Aug 31, 2011)

TreeGear said:


> While at my local hydro store today, I happened to mention this to the owner and he claims that since this will cause the plant to stretch more, I will have less flowering time and therefore end up with a smaller yield. I'm thinking my yield will be better, any opinions?)


Excellent question! : )


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## wyteboi (Sep 2, 2011)

TreeGear said:


> So based on previous suggestions in this thread, i have been planning on keeping my veg nutes (2-1-1) in my resevoir till the stretch is over (3 weeks) before I switch to 1-3-2. While at my local hydro store today, I happened to mention this to the owner and he claims that since this will cause the plant to stretch more, I will have less flowering time and therefore end up with a smaller yield. I'm thinking my yield will be better, any opinions? I'm in a tray, 2 gal. pots with hydroton with a cocomat underneath if it makes any difference, not in soil (btw...epic combo I just tried out if anyone is looking for new medium setups...roots out of control...filled the pots AND tray in 25 days from tiny 2 inch clones...huge upgrade from rockwool slabs on a mat)


Remember that the plant tells the food what to do , the food (by itself) dont determine anything in a plants life. So if your plant is good size and ALL real pretty green then a shot of your 1-3-2 wont hurt at all and if the plant dont think its time to eat the extra P-K then it wont. Now if you keep on putting excess food in the medium then the ph will go crazy an eventually stop the uptake of foods.

The object is to get the plant as much food as it will *eat*. the plant will never eat more then it wants but it will leave the food behind an it will start altering the ph. you just gotta learn your plants. you can _start _by using the directions on the bottle but that is just a basic measurement. you will have to adjust per *your* plants needs.

The food can not *force* a plant to stretch and food can not stop it from stretching either. If you got plenty of light , ventilation , food , an well kept roots then the plant is gonna do whats its supposed to do. 
"Stretching" an not stretching is due to the environment, all of it , not just the food.



TreeGear said:


> he claims that since this will cause the plant to stretch more, I will have less flowering time and therefore end up with a smaller yield.


Completely false , if any medium has too much N in it , then the plant simply wont eat it all, an then eventually the medium will become overloaded with N an it will cause many probs with the uptake of other foods. (ph probs, ect..)




soil


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## Budroller (Sep 3, 2011)

Noob here.... These girls are 2 weeks in flower for the tall girl and 3 weeks in for the little shrubby. Both are in three gal pots -yea, I know. I am growing organically and have been feeding MG Organic Choice 8-0-0 and Dr. Earth #6 4-8-4. I make the Dr. into a tea and feed foliar and soil drench. I use the MG as a soil drench. My schedule is MG-half strength, water, DR. Earth tea-half strength, water, Molasses-1Tper gallon for soil drench. 
I have started to have a progression of yellowing fan leaves steadily moving up the stem. They get plenty of sun and attention...

I have been feeding this for 3-4 days, but yellowing continues. Even my top fan leaves are a lime yellow color. Feeling like my girl is heading down hill! Should I start to feed higher concentrations of these nutes, full strength or double? 

I see that the MG is derived from fermented beet molasses...i thought molasses was potassium and not nitrogen. Any thoughts on this? 

At any rate, any help or comments will be greatly appreciated!


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## dirtysnowball (Sep 4, 2011)

dont take advice from the cashier thats trying to sell you these products imo. and i've been preaching this stuff to, NH3/urea/(nitrogen) from miracle grow is no different then N from piss. although piss is 50-0-0 and should be watered down in a 4:1 ratio(100oz h2O + 28oz piss) this will give you a good npk of 10-0-0 which can be used every other watering, but i recommend adding all the other nutes too. piss works in a pinch lol!


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## dirtysnowball (Sep 4, 2011)

budroller, your plant is N defficient; its lime green, and the lower leaves are yellowing and dieing. only use molasses every 3rd watering, molasses is cal/mag and iron, cal/mag competes with N for binding spots on the roots. your nutes are ok to use at full strength in the soil since they are pretty light. anything with a npk around 10-10-10 should be used ever other watering(i consider this npk half strength because i compare npk ratios to full strength commercial nutes).

you should use dr.earth @full strength and combine it all in one gallon with 3/4 strength mg organic choice. this should make an npk of 10-8-4 if the npk values posted are correct. you should add more K, it regulates water(nute) intake(the most essential thing).


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 4, 2011)

Budroller said:


> Noob here.... These girls are 2 weeks in flower for the tall girl and 3 weeks in for the little shrubby. Both are in three gal pots -yea, I know. I am growing organically and have been feeding MG Organic Choice 8-0-0 and Dr. Earth #6 4-8-4. I make the Dr. into a tea and feed foliar and soil drench. I use the MG as a soil drench. My schedule is MG-half strength, water, DR. Earth tea-half strength, water, Molasses-1Tper gallon for soil drench.
> I have started to have a progression of yellowing fan leaves steadily moving up the stem. They get plenty of sun and attention...
> 
> I have been feeding this for 3-4 days, but yellowing continues. Even my top fan leaves are a lime yellow color. Feeling like my girl is heading down hill! Should I start to feed higher concentrations of these nutes, full strength or double?
> ...


Stop using what you're using and switch to an indoors type "camelia/azalea" food. IOW a water soluble acidifying food, a 30-10-10 or 21-7-7 with chelated micros. No more than 1 tsp/gallon dissolved in rainwater if you got it. Walmart has it under their own brand. Don't expect immediate results, give it at least 3 days for the color on the newer leaves to turn back to a normal green. Older leaves are probably toast and may not recover. If they still have some chlorophyll left, they're probably still useful to the plant regarding photosynthesis.

And FWIW, "organics" are composed of inorganic minerals. A salt is a salt no matter how its used or derived.

Good luck,
UB


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## Budroller (Sep 4, 2011)

Thanks UB! I read this post front to back and have faith in your wisdom! 
I have ordered the Jack's Duo and the Orchid special; I had been using what I had already for my veggies and flowers. 

I don't know why I became so focused on the mj nutes...it's just a plant, right!? I have been using water from my rain barrel, so no prob. there. 

I appreciate all and any input!!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 4, 2011)

NP. If you can't use "MJ nutes" on an orchid, tomato or pepper plant, potato, or oak tree, peach tree..... then that should tell you something about the stuff you're buying. You've locked out the N by falling for the "line". 

UB


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## Kingrow1 (Sep 4, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Stop using what you're using and switch to an indoors type "camelia/azalea" food. IOW a water soluble acidifying food, a 30-10-10 or 21-7-7 with chelated micros. No more than 1 tsp/gallon dissolved in rainwater if you got it. Walmart has it under their own brand. Don't expect immediate results, give it at least 3 days for the color on the newer leaves to turn back to a normal green. Older leaves are probably toast and may not recover. If they still have some chlorophyll left, they're probably still useful to the plant regarding photosynthesis.
> 
> And FWIW, "organics" are composed of inorganic minerals. A salt is a salt no matter how its used or derived.
> 
> ...


UB your threads are amazing and ive learnt a lot but i am still lost in a lot of info as to organic ferts vs inorganic or chemical ferts. You say a salt is a salt reguardless but dose that mean organic is no better for salt build up than chemical nutes?

I do understand that inorganic nutes that are not man made might seem comparable to organic except they are not all carbon based.

I use the Biobizz grow/bloom/fishmix and maxicrop seaweed, would consider inorganic but stay away from man made chem ferts like the plague. Peace


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## Budroller (Sep 4, 2011)

I gave a foliar feed from some good ole' high N compost tea I had bubblin' this morning, as well as a nice drink for the soil. Girls perked up and are reachin' for the sun. The nutes I had been using are from my veggie /flower production- not MJ specific. I believe? that I have been underfeeding?

Now, when the Jacks arrives, any suggestions as to a feeding schedule to get my girls back on track? Also, should I just give 'em water and tea until the new ferts arrive.

UB, I wish I could invite you over for some nice organic homebrew and a trip to the top of the Volcano!! I'd be sittin' there takin' notes...

Thank you!


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 5, 2011)

Kingrow1 said:


> UB your threads are amazing and ive learnt a lot but i am still lost in a lot of info as to organic ferts vs inorganic or chemical ferts. You say a salt is a salt reguardless but dose that mean organic is no better for salt build up than chemical nutes?
> 
> I do understand that inorganic nutes that are not man made might seem comparable to organic except they are not all carbon based.
> 
> I use the Biobizz grow/bloom/fishmix and maxicrop seaweed, would consider inorganic but stay away from man made chem ferts like the plague. Peace


Only you can make the call as to what's more important to you - idealogy or fact.


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## Kingrow1 (Sep 6, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> Only you can make the call as to what's more important to you - idealogy or fact.


Good answer, thanks. Peace


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 6, 2011)

Budroller said:


> I gave a foliar feed from some good ole' high N compost tea I had bubblin' this morning, as well as a nice drink for the soil. Girls perked up and are reachin' for the sun. The nutes I had been using are from my veggie /flower production- not MJ specific. I believe? that I have been underfeeding?
> 
> Now, when the Jacks arrives, any suggestions as to a feeding schedule to get my girls back on track? Also, should I just give 'em water and tea until the new ferts arrive.
> 
> ...


Just keep them green and healthy. There's no such thing as "cannabis specific" nutes. You're a bullseye for vendors who want to sell you something "special".


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## Windsblow (Sep 13, 2011)

HEy UB I just started my plants 0n Jacks classic 20-20-20. I fed them for the first time 1/4 tsp per gallon and all but 1 (which is probably 3 month in veg) now have thin and underdeveloped new growth. The plants seem to be slowing down on there growth. I have them in FFOF under 400 watt HPS.


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## wyteboi (Sep 15, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> HEy UB I just started my plants 0n Jacks classic 20-20-20. I fed them for the first time 1/4 tsp per gallon and all but 1 (which is probably 3 month in veg) now have thin and underdeveloped new growth. The plants seem to be slowing down on there growth. I have them in FFOF under 400 watt HPS.


If they have never been fed before i would lean towards root rot. as you probably already know the bottom of the pots will not dry as quick and you might be watering when the top 3/4 of the pot is bone dry but the bottom still has sitting moisture from last time ? 

im sure UB can help more with a bit more info.




soil


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## Windsblow (Sep 15, 2011)

wyteboi said:


> If they have never been fed before i would lean towards root rot. as you probably already know the bottom of the pots will not dry as quick and you might be watering when the top 3/4 of the pot is bone dry but the bottom still has sitting moisture from last time ?
> 
> im sure UB can help more with a bit more info.


I have been feeding them but with a 30-15-30 standard pert. All my pots have fresh roots and have good soil and white pretty roots. I just don't know if the switch in nute brands have stressed them a bit. It's hard to believe it would. I feed them very lightly and don't push the nutes because of the fresh soil they get every two weeks. I haven't had this problem before so I just thought I would ask. Could be nothing though. Looks a lot like heat stress but I know that not the case 400 watt HPS make little heat and I have plenty of air flow.


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## wyteboi (Sep 17, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I have been feeding them but with a 30-15-30 standard pert. All my pots have fresh roots and have good soil and white pretty roots. I just don't know if the switch in nute brands have stressed them a bit. It's hard to believe it would. I feed them very lightly and don't push the nutes because of the fresh soil they get every two weeks. I haven't had this problem before so I just thought I would ask. Could be nothing though. Looks a lot like heat stress but I know that not the case 400 watt HPS make little heat and I have plenty of air flow.


maybe try to back off the food completely for a week or so. i dont see the "switch" hurting anything either unless you have a buildup of your other food still. ?




soil


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## TheLastWood (Sep 17, 2011)

Sounds like a N toxicity.


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## Windsblow (Sep 20, 2011)

TheLastWood said:


> Sounds like a N toxicity.


I think you are right and I think I figured it out. I had to buy some MG perlite because the grow shop was out not realizing that MG perlite has MG nutes i it. So..... I have FFOF+JAcks CLassic+MG nutes. Hence the N toxicity. I haven't got any burn yet but the leave are the darkest prettiest green I have seen.


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## wyteboi (Sep 21, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I haven't got any burn yet but the leave are the darkest prettiest green I have seen.


Well thats all that matters then.....




soil


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## psyte (Oct 5, 2011)

Wow. I just got through reading this thread and all I can say is that any beginner who does not read this entire thread is doing themselves a huge disservice. There are so many valuable resources in here. I can't understand how this isn't stickied. I would have saved myself a lot of trouble on my first grow if I had come across this first.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 5, 2011)

psyte said:


> Wow. I just got through reading this thread and all I can say is that any beginner who does not read this entire thread is doing themselves a huge disservice. There are so many valuable resources in here. I can't understand how this isn't stickied. I would have saved myself a lot of trouble on my first grow if I had come across this first.


Welcome to the party. Better late, than never.

Grow hard,
Uncle Ben


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## Budroller (Oct 6, 2011)

Hey UB...how do you think she turned out?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 7, 2011)

Budroller said:


> Hey UB...how do you think she turned out?
> View attachment 1823839View attachment 1823840View attachment 1823841


Top couple of inches look good!


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## Budroller (Oct 7, 2011)

You sound like my old lady....
Thanks for the props, really!


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## boneheadbob (Oct 16, 2011)

Just finishing my second grow and my methods have been all over the place.
Should have read the collected works of Uncle Ben before I ordered my first beans.

I noticed my SSH sucked all the life out of almost all leaves by 82 days. First they changed yellow, then they turned damp and shrank, last stage was drying up into the bud. I was stingy with nutes all the way through and only gave them a little bloom but I thought the leave yellowing was normal.

Next time I will follow UB and keep my leaves green.
At least I was smart enough to not spend money on fancy bottles and spent all my money on beans instead.


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## wyteboi (Oct 17, 2011)

boneheadbob said:


> I noticed my SSH sucked all the life out of almost all leaves by 82 days. First they changed yellow, then they turned damp and shrank, last stage was drying up into the bud. I was stingy with nutes all the way through and only gave them a little bloom but I thought the leave yellowing was normal.
> 
> Next time I will follow UB and keep my leaves green.
> At least I was smart enough to not spend money on fancy bottles and spent all my money on beans instead.


yes he has always been right on that one ...... it is just plain stupid to let your plant starve just so the leaves are yellow. its a dumb myth that does not even make sense....... the bigger , the healthier the leaves the bigger the fruit will be .... ALWAYS. (taste , yield , potency , all of it !)







soil


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 26, 2011)

UB can u or anyone else answer on how to calculate total npk for this?
Soil A is 2.3-0-2.3 @ 20ml
B is 1-1.1-3.6 @ 20ml
Drip clean 0-18-6 @ 1ml
BudXL 4-0-2 @ 7ml
Fish emulsion 4-1-1 @5ml
Big bud 1-17-38 @ 2 grams powder.
What is my total npk? I added the fish to up the N for definite N def.


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## wyteboi (Oct 27, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> UB can u or anyone else answer on how to calculate total npk for this?
> Soil A is 2.3-0-2.3 @ 20ml
> B is 1-1.1-3.6 @ 20ml
> Drip clean 0-18-6 @ 1ml
> ...


a lot of unnecessary stuff if you ask me. stick to the basics. there is no need in all that food ...... they can only eat so much. 
that is the definition of "*Abuse of Phosphorous"



im not tryin to be a dick , it just seems you want to read more on nutrition to get a better understanding of what a plant needs vs what they want to sell you. 







soil 
*


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok. Thanks wyte. Should I just stick to the fish emulsion and toss the rest?


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## wyteboi (Oct 27, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> Ok. Thanks wyte. Should I just stick to the fish emulsion and toss the rest?


are they in dirt ? how old ? how big ? veg or bloom ?




soil


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi guys, im using the biobizz, the grow seems real weak on phosphorous but the bloom seems real weak on nitrogen. Now it is recomended to sweeten the bloom up with some grow for flowering (personal experience the bloom is just a sort of P/K additive with little nitrogen) but in the veg room my plants look a bit heavily nitrogen'ed up if you get what i mean, there healthy but look like they ate a bit to much nitrate nitrogen and lacked a little phosphorous. Is there any reason not to supplement my biobizz grow with a small amount of the biobizz bloom to even the NPK ratios out?

I know my question is kinda visa versa but would be good to get some info back, up to now ive generally seen biobizz bloom as a no-no in the veg time but certainly it might sweeten my grow up.

I think for these reasons im really prefering the results of the biobizz fishmix as oppose to their grow as NPK ratios are slightly more even between the three nutrients. Thanks

This is all the info i could find for ingredients on biobizz, i see no reason why not, maybe im best of trying and seeing -

Biobizz grow
Ammoniacal Nitrogen 1%
Nitrate Nitrogen 1%

Available Phosphate 0.1% P2O5 - Phosphorous Pentoxide
Soluble Potash 6.6% K2O - Potassium Oxide

Derived from Molasses

Biobizz bloom
Ammoniacal Nitrogen 0.5%
Nitrate Nitrogen 0.5%


Available Phosphate 3% P2O5 - Phosphorous Pentoxide
Soluble Potash 2% K2O - Potassium Oxide


Sea Kelp (Ascophyllum Nodosum) and Humic Acid from Leonardite


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## wyteboi (Oct 27, 2011)

Kingrow1 said:


> Hi guys, im using the biobizz, the grow seems real weak on phosphorous but the bloom seems real weak on nitrogen. Now it is recomended to sweeten the bloom up with some grow for flowering (personal experience the bloom is just a sort of P/K additive with little nitrogen) but in the veg room my plants look a bit heavily nitrogen'ed up if you get what i mean, there healthy but look like they ate a bit to much nitrate nitrogen and lacked a little phosphorous. Is there any reason not to supplement my biobizz grow with a small amount of the biobizz bloom to even the NPK ratios out?
> 
> I know my question is kinda visa versa but would be good to get some info back, up to now ive generally seen biobizz bloom as a no-no in the veg time but certainly it might sweeten my grow up.
> 
> I think for these reasons im really prefering the results of the biobizz fishmix as oppose to their grow as NPK ratios are slightly more even between the three nutrients. Thanks


fishmix is great .

Yes you can mix your foods up , just be careful with the measurements. (im sure you know that) 

ANYTIME your plant needs something else , give it to it. just mix a tiny bit of bloom in your grow an vise verca.







soil


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## wyteboi (Oct 27, 2011)

Kingrow1 said:


> Biobizz grow
> Ammoniacal Nitrogen 1%
> Nitrate Nitrogen 1%
> 
> ...


bloom looks good but i think the grow *is* molasses . thats not enough N for veg at all. 

you sure that grow is not just a "root supplement" or "soil toner" ?






soil


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 27, 2011)

Thankyou, for some reason i feel i have felt that the bloom would be bad in small amounts with the grow in the veg period but plants look very nitrate nitrogen fed and seemingly slightly Phosphorous deficient. I agree the fishmix is great, much better results than the grow as a one part veg nute but still a little incomplete NPK wise for me. Using bothe the bloom and fish for all stages flowering and veg would make a lot of sense. Thanks


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 27, 2011)

wyteboi said:


> bloom looks good but i think the grow *is* molasses . thats not enough N for veg at all.
> 
> you sure that grow is not just a "root supplement" or "soil toner" ?soil





There is little info on biobizz, the grow seems like molasses but with somthing else but again very little info, heres what i know about the root juice

Sea Kelp 15% Ascophyllum Nodosum
Humic acid 30% Leonardite

The biobizz veg NPK is like 8-2-6 so must be quite good N wise and also equal Nitrate and Ammoniacal nitrogen (although any knowledge i have of these is small and probably misunderstood) but as you can see really sucks for Phosphorous and im sure i can see a Phosphorous deficiency slightly. 

I will try some bloom in the veg room and see the results, should be an easy test and good experience for using it as a two part nute outside of flowering. Peace


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## wyteboi (Oct 27, 2011)

this says 8-2-6 on the grow ? an 2-6-3.5 on the bloom ? that looks like a good one part food for veg ? maybe you have a hydro version of biobizz? 
 






soil


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 27, 2011)

wyteboi said:


> this says 8-2-6 on the grow ? an 2-6-3.5 on the bloom ? that looks like a good one part food for veg ? maybe you have a hydro version of biobizz?
> View attachment 1859368
> 
> soil


Sorry what i posted was the percentages listed for each nutrient, i believe the NPK ratios are different, the 2% nitrogen in the grow gives an 8 for the NPK i doubt it takes into consideration all the nitrates but yer this seems right. Sorry if ive confused things, my biobizz is 8nitrogen NPK but the percentage is 2% or so the biobizz recomended retailers and grow shops that sell the nutes post. I cannot find any other info on ingredients, makeup and NPK other than this. Peace


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 28, 2011)

Maybe i have just written it not so clearly, the three NPK numbers dont add up to 100% this would be where the grow gets the 2% (1%Ammoniacal and Nitrate) Nitrogen from, i think the maths are rounded up and down but generally is not 2% of 100% 10 or close to 8 (i think the actual nitrogen is more like 1,8 percent or 1.6, tooo tired to do the actual maths) biobizz just call it 2% or the grow shops for ease i suppose. Peace and thanks


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## Mr.GrÃ¸nn (Oct 28, 2011)

I've been using BioBizz Grow and Bloom for a while, and this is how I've come to understand the real NPK values.

PLEASE someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The percentage of P and K is not what it says on the bottle, it has to be calculated.
This is because:
P2O5 consists of 56.4 % oxygen and 43.6% elemental phosphorus.
K2O consists of 17% oxygen and 83% elemental potassium.
Example: the percentage is 83% for K, so K= 0.83 * K2O.

Real NPK contents:

BioBizz Grow NPK 8 - 2 - 6:

N 8% = 4% ammonium-Nitrogen, and 4% nitrate-Nitrogen.
P 2% = 0.87 % P
K 6% = 4.98 % K

Conclusion: BioBizz Grow is 8 - 0.87 - 4.98 (or 1 - 0.1 - 0.6)


BioBizz Bloom NPK 2 - 6 - 3.5:

N 2%: 0.9% ammonium-Nitrogen and 1.1 % nitrate Nitrogen.
P 6%: 2.62%
K 3.5%: 2.91%

Conclusion: BioBizz Bloom is 2 - 2.6 - 2.9 (or 1 - 1.3 - 1.4)


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 28, 2011)

Mr.Grønn;6534441 said:


> I've been using BioBizz Grow and Bloom for a while, and this is how I've come to understand the real NPK values.
> 
> PLEASE someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> ...


I can dig this but i need verification or tomorrow nights gona involve a lot of study in P and K, freaking Nitrogen was hard enough to nail with the Nitrate and Ammoniacal etc etc 
Damn you Rollitup you make me have to learn so much, plants appreciate you though. Peace


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 28, 2011)

wyteboi said:


> are they in dirt ? how old ? how big ? veg or bloom ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


im current in 6wks bloom. Did a micro gro in 2ltr bottles. Vegged for only a week 35 bottles. 3 different strains ranging from 12 inches to 3 ft. using 2 lights, 600hps and 400hps together. going 10 weeks.


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 28, 2011)

Btw. Im in ff ocean forrest mixed with happy from and 1/3 perilite. I also use orca for beneficials.


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 28, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> Btw. Im in ff ocean forrest mixed with happy from and 1/3 perilite. I also use orca for beneficials.


 I meant happy frog.


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 28, 2011)

dick murphy said:


> wow to technical for me i like to keep it simple like others said why lose sleep over it


I dont MOROON!


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## wyteboi (Oct 29, 2011)

Kingrow1 said:


> I can dig this but i need verification or tomorrow nights gona involve a lot of study in P and K, freaking Nitrogen was hard enough to nail with the Nitrate and Ammoniacal etc etc
> Damn you Rollitup you make me have to learn so much, plants appreciate you though. Peace


i lost my WHOLE post . fuck! 

well i'll try again.

well all the readin an learnin is why we are gonna be the best one day !

alright the way i look at it is simple. yes the npk reads in 100% of the bottle. (so 8% of that bottle is N)

so 8 % total of N ...... 4% of that is "instant food" (the nitrate N is already broken down an availible for the plants to eat) the other 4 % is ammoniacal N an still needs the microbes to break it down the rest of the way.

same goes for the P an K ..... the bottle should read the % of P thats available an the % that is there but not broke down yet.

either way the NPK numbers are all we need to know (basically) 

your grow mix is 8-2-6 , thats perfect for veg ....plenty of N. even if the numbers are slightly different , the ratio stays real close to the same. 

i dont know where MR. got his numbers from but they are probably correct .... no big deal.


i would not mix the grow an bloom till flower time ..... or when they need the extra P.






hope that helps a lil ..... or your just as confused as i am 







soil


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## wyteboi (Oct 29, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> im current in 6wks bloom. Did a micro gro in 2ltr bottles. Vegged for only a week 35 bottles. 3 different strains ranging from 12 inches to 3 ft. using 2 lights, 600hps and 400hps together. going 10 weeks.


which brand of A an B are you using. you got plenty of food for veg but i dont see nothin with good ratio's for flower. the bloom food you have is all just "boosters" not an everyday diet. 

how big are they an are they in dirt ? i would probably just use the a an b an add a tiny , tiny bit of booster maybe once a week or less. 

are they real dark green an healthy ?





soil


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 30, 2011)

I have house and garden soil A & B. budXL is supposedly their bloom food but its 4-0-2 for npk. Then shooting powder for the last 3 wks, its 0-9-2.


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 30, 2011)

Theyre yellowing still. I checked the run off with RO water(32ppm), and it came out to 1320. Im just gonna add water (RO) til I see a drop in ppm from the run off. Then add fish emulsion with RO on next after ppm in soil goes down to about 500. Good idea?


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## wyteboi (Oct 30, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> I have house and garden soil A & B. budXL is supposedly their bloom food but its 4-0-2 for npk. Then shooting powder for the last 3 wks, its 0-9-2.


4-0-2 mixed with the 0-9-2 would be a really good food for this stage of life.




Ogsmokealot said:


> Theyre yellowing still. I checked the run off with RO water(32ppm), and it came out to 1320. Im just gonna add water (RO) til I see a drop in ppm from the run off. Then add fish emulsion with RO on next after ppm in soil goes down to about 500. Good idea?


you cant properly check the food (ppm) level from "runoff" so dont worry bout even checking right now.


there is way too much sales pitch on their website for me to gather real info.....



soil


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 31, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> Theyre yellowing still. I checked the run off with RO water(32ppm), and it came out to 1320. Im just gonna add water (RO) til I see a drop in ppm from the run off. Then add fish emulsion with RO on next after ppm in soil goes down to about 500. Good idea?


Those NPK values are some of the most wacked out, non-sensible values I've ever heard of. Time to pick up a book on plant nutrition and stop using what the vendors are feeding you. Find _something_ that will get you close to a 1-1-1 ratio with micros and stick with it. They're yellowing because they're not getting sufficient N and if I had to guess, they're probably stunted with premature leaf drop.

Good luck,
UB


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## watchhowIdoit (Oct 31, 2011)

Heres a plants grown with just a store brand potting mix and osmocote plus pre mixed into the medium. Homemade Miracle Grow if you will, just add tap water...started from seed 9/11/11. Just finished transition and starting to flower...KISS folks.......


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 31, 2011)

watchhowIdoit said:


> Heres a plants grown with just a store brand potting mix and osmocote plus pre mixed into the medium. Homemade Miracle Grow if you will, just add tap water...started from seed 9/11/11. Just finished transition and starting to flower...KISS folks.......


Yep, that is all you need. I did this sativa dom 4 cola monster using nothing more than a 12 month 18-5-8 with micros. Colas are so heavy they are drooping even with some support.


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 31, 2011)

What should I do to diagnose at this point UB? Just give water or continue to feed. I think it may be lockout. Lemme check ph of run off and whats going on there.


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## watchhowIdoit (Oct 31, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> What should I do to diagnose at this point UB? Just give water or continue to feed. I think it may be lockout. Lemme check ph of run off and whats going on there.


Runoff pH will tell you nothing much usefull and just have you chasing your tale. Lockup and lockout happen far less than most think. Most of the time it a simple deficiency caused by an unbalanced diet and has nothing to do with an element being locked up/out.....


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 31, 2011)

What u suppose i do then. Feed with just water or the 4-1-1 fish emulsion with kelp?


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## wyteboi (Oct 31, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> What u suppose i do then. Feed with just water or the 4-1-1 fish emulsion with kelp?


like UB said , you are gonna have to spend some time reading on plant nutrition. 

like i said , mix the 4-0-2 with the 0-9-2 and that will work until you get the foods you want. 
or just use the a an b like the bottle says ..... every single plant is different in certain aspects so it is hard for us to tell you exactly how to use *your own setup*.

you'll get it right ..... you just have a lot to learn..... we all do.




soil


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## Ogsmokealot (Oct 31, 2011)

Thanks wyte. U da man.


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## buttrick (Nov 1, 2011)

I recently switched to the Lucas Formula 1-1-2. and so far ive put it in DWC, Soil, and the ebb. and all ive seen is happy campers.  for the price and the simplicity, and not to mention seeing how they thrive, im sold. I dont think i will try anything new in the fertilizer area for a long time. 

Food for thought on the phosphorus... Cannabis consumes the same amount of phosphorus, as it does calcium. and in a lot of cases more calcium than phosphorus. 
And it consumes half as much phosphorus as nitro and potassium


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## Mr.GrÃ¸nn (Nov 2, 2011)

Sometimes I wonder if these threads are about growing a plant, or making a space-ship.


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## watchhowIdoit (Nov 3, 2011)

Mr.Grønn;6563439 said:



> Sometimes I wonder if these threads are about growing a plant, or making a space-ship.


 Ya most make growing MJ seem like a shuttle launch when its more like folding and flying a paper airplane....


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## wyteboi (Nov 3, 2011)

Mr.Grønn;6563439 said:


> Sometimes I wonder if these threads are about growing a plant, or making a space-ship.


if you cant get to the moon from your babies then your spaceship aint runnin right. 







soil


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## Ogsmokealot (Nov 9, 2011)

Anyone know if the product Bountea is any good? Npk is 1.4-.9-1.4, its the tablet kind that requires no brewing.


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## wyteboi (Nov 10, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> Anyone know if the product Bountea is any good? Npk is 1.4-.9-1.4, its the tablet kind that requires no brewing.


seems to _look_ good , but there aint much in a box. 25 tabs will only do 25 gallons of water.... it might be a good food but it looks expensive to me.






soil


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## Wetdog (Nov 10, 2011)

Ogsmokealot said:


> Anyone know if the product Bountea is any good? Npk is 1.4-.9-1.4, its the tablet kind that requires no brewing.


I guess spending $$$$$ and looking at pretty labels is easier than doing a little research on plant nutrition?

Quit over complicating and making expensive something that is simple and cheap.

Wet


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## johny1212 (Nov 10, 2011)

Wetdog said:


> I guess spending $$$$$ and looking at pretty labels is easier than doing a little research on plant nutrition?
> 
> Quit over complicating and making expensive something that is simple and cheap.
> 
> Wet


Exactly! I ran an, h&g and gh. All with the additives and all that shit. I just switched to dyna-gro and things are 10 times better. In flower I am around 1-3-2 npk by adding a touch of grow to the bloom. Simple one part grow and bloom. Almost seems too simple but my babies have never been happier. Also, never follow their feed schedules. They are always too high and cause many issues and some will just cook your plants at recommended doses. Currently I run top drip coco. I am heading the way of uncle Ben and doing organic. The hydro market is just retarded for the most part. Just fancy labels and high prices for shit that would be in a good soil mix.


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## speero78 (Nov 18, 2011)

I give you rep+ as well ...thats what the forums are all about learning


spiked1 said:


> I remember now, I wasn't disagreeing with you as much as you thought, but I am old enough to know that I'm not always right. So I decided to try adding more nitrogen during flower after our discussion and was nicely surprised at the results. So I'm still adding some fish emulsion with my bloom nutes and they seem to like it, my leaves haven't gone yellow and fallen off after 6 1/2 weeks of budding, my buds are growing big, fat and solid.


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## GHOPZZ (Nov 18, 2011)

I just picked up some Dyna-Grow products, there grow formula, Bloom and Protekt. Can these be used in soil? and what would good schedule for these nutes be??


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## speero78 (Nov 19, 2011)

Just to add to the subject...i was giving up on this forum until i started reading UB post...thanks a million for your knowledge and having the time to share ...your the man ! cheers ++++++++repsss


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 19, 2011)

Looks good Speero. Yes, Dyna-Gro can be used in soil.


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## speero78 (Nov 23, 2011)

thank you ...and specially from you UB  Have to thank you for all the things i have learned from your posts...cheers


Uncle Ben said:


> Looks good Speero. Yes, Dyna-Gro can be used in soil.


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## The2TimEr (May 24, 2012)

i have been growing since 07 now and keep coming accross the same problem.. that is maintaining fan leaves.. 

this thread is very helpfull and is for sure bookmarked! big thanks to uncle ben!!

as you can see here with my current auto plants, all new growth is nice n green maybe even a little too green on my midget plant, with fan leaves suffering badly...

the easyryder on the right has already lost a couple of fans, and now the smaller girl ( la diva ) on the left is about to lose hers. i know autos have shorter life cycles but is has been the same with photo period plants, really struggling with the earlier fans.. N food is 10.6 - 4.4 - 1.7

thanks for any help in advance


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## wyteboi (May 25, 2012)

the2 , i am gonna recommend the opposite of the thread title. some K ! and a shot of extra P wont hurt either. 

your K is very low compared to the others, an K is very important in soil. i would give a dose or two of some K. a "bloom booster" you already have layin around might work , just check the numbers.
they are flowering so a LIL extra P wont hurt at all.

i got some 1-4-5 i would use 3 or 4 times in a row.... or i got some 0-0-22 that i would use once or twice, ect... 



soil


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## sickity (Aug 26, 2012)

I just read all 51 pages and I must say wow, I did understand all of it, including the technical descriptions as I do have a scientific background. I do a lot of reading here but not so much questions as I usually think the answer is there if you search for it but after 51 pages I do have a question. How/can you correct an overdose of P in organic/soil? by organic I mean I don't use liquid nutes, I use a soilmix and I just use plain water on it, I use Vics super soil mix and started to see the yellowing and necrosis after about 3 weeks into flowering. I got sucked into the forum paradigm and believed that plants needed high P for flowering so when I switched them over to flower I top dressed with some high P bat guano 0-15-1. So is it possible to fix this or do I just have to ride it out for this harvest? I know I can't remove the guano and I am not sure if I should hit it with some N or anything to help it or if that might just make it worse, Ive been riding it out so far for a couple weeks and not sure what path is best to take, if you are reading this UB any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 26, 2012)

sickity said:


> I just read all 51 pages and I must say wow, I did understand all of it, including the technical descriptions as I do have a scientific background. I do a lot of reading here but not so much questions as I usually think the answer is there if you search for it but after 51 pages I do have a question. How/can you correct an overdose of P in organic/soil? by organic I mean I don't use liquid nutes, I use a soilmix and I just use plain water on it, I use Vics super soil mix and started to see the yellowing and necrosis after about 3 weeks into flowering. I got sucked into the forum paradigm and believed that plants needed high P for flowering so when I switched them over to flower I top dressed with some high P bat guano 0-15-1. So is it possible to fix this or do I just have to ride it out for this harvest? I know I can't remove the guano and I am not sure if I should hit it with some N or anything to help it or if that might just make it worse, Ive been riding it out so far for a couple weeks and not sure what path is best to take, if you are reading this UB any advice is greatly appreciated.


High P will lock out the micros, also N. Vigoro makes an All Purpose Food, 24-5-18, that will help. Get it at Casa dePot. A foliar citrus spray containing micros of Fe, Mg, Cu, Zn..... can help too. 

http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm


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## Nightmarecreature (Dec 5, 2012)

There is a trade off going Nitrogen deficient in cannabis during flowering. Using N during flowering and keeping your leaves green will increase yield but it will also lower the THC content of the buds. The reason for going N deficient is that it increases the THC content of the buds while decreasing yield. It's a simple matter of quality or quantity. Neither of which is right or wrong, you decide.

"A study on how to minimize THC levels in hemp crops showed that THC levels in newer leaf growth decreased as nitrogen levels were increased." "This would also explain the good results that most growers have flushing their plants, as nitrogen is the nutrient most easily flushed from the soil."

B?csa, M?th? and Hangyel. Effect of nitrogen on tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) content in hemp leaves at different positions. 1997. Journal of the International Hemp Association 4(2): 78 -79.


I don't believe flushing is necessary, I do believe all it does is speed up the curing time. I believe it is like this.
Flush your plants and go N deficient, lower yield, increased potency and a shorter cure time.
No flush, go green and have a bigger yield, lower potency and a longer cure time to break down the chlorophyll.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 5, 2012)

That study does not apply to high THC material, only hemp. Apples and oranges, plus if you read it, it's full of half truths. We've already had this discussion. 

Read this - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-59.html#post8342178


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## Nightmarecreature (Dec 5, 2012)

I have noticed the difference in trying it out myself, I don't need a book to tell me that. It does apply to medical cannabis. High N and there is a small loss in potency. The reason is the plant focuses on growth instead of resin production. It's not a huge THC decrease but I do notice the difference. The book also states something along the lines of high levels of potassium and phosphate decrease THC in hemp but that the opposite is true in medical cannabis. 

Also keeping your leaves green all through flower increases curing time. Flushing is not necessary but some things people do for a reason. The reason people flush is because they want to smoke their crop as soon as possible. 

I agree with your topics on nutes. I know people who grow nice plants on cheap walmart Shultz. I do know that the plants ability to uptake nutes is different for each brand.

You can see you have nice yields, 50% of yields are genetic. Do you have pictures of the yields with steady N vs deficient N? 

Do you have pictures of the trichomes going N deficient and pics of the trichomes with steady levels of N?


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## Bakatare666 (Mar 30, 2013)

Just bumping a good read for the newbs.


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## bootkiller (Jun 6, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...



*The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering


i think i might of done this on accident.. and u knwo its killings me cause i stressed em so much that 2 of 4 plants that are 7 weeks into flowering are now showing naners and i got to pull em everyday..
now i noticed today black tips on some of hte leaves.. i hit them with Foxfarm open sesamie, foxfarm beasty bloom and now foxfarm cha ching.. i thik i hit them too hard cause im getting loss of leaves, growth stoped, for both bud production and leafs, lots of yellow leafs, that are burning and curling, my bucket is root bound.. help me.. what can i do to get my last 2 weeks left to get them to produce a lil more.. right now it wasnt worth my time.. maybe off 4 northerns fem indoors under 1000w air cooled in a 4x8 tent, in 5 gallon pots that are root bound i think cause i veged to long. using ocean forest soil.. 600 cfm inline with 200 cfm booster, any help would be appreciated..*


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## ltjs (Jun 7, 2013)

Ok so I have been reading threw this and I definitely have a nute deficiency but my question is, What are all these black spots I am getting? I have 3 in flower all with the same nute cycle but only 1 has these black spots. My light was a little close to the plants but I backed it off a bit today. Dont think thats the problem though as I am using leds and they dont get too hot in there. What im thinking from reading threw this is a mag deficiency or maybe mold?. I also noticed that on top of one of my colas i have a bit of really bright red. Only one 1 cola out the 3 plants in flower has the red in it. Thought that was a bit odd? Any addvice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2013)

bootkiller said:


> * i hit them with Foxfarm open sesamie, foxfarm beasty bloom and now foxfarm cha ching.. i thik i hit them too hard cause im getting loss of leaves, growth stoped, for both bud production and leafs, lots of yellow leafs, that are burning and curling, my bucket is root bound.. help me.. what can i do to get my last 2 weeks left to get them to produce a lil more.. *


*

Nothing, the damage has been done. Just try to keep as many healthy leaves as possible until harvest. IOW, shit can the bloom foods!

Again.........

Do not use bloom foods, any food low in N, for any extended period of time. I (and others who are following my example) are using a high N food from start to finish and their yields and the health of their plants have greatly improved.

UB*


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2013)

ltjs said:


> Ok so I have been reading threw this and I definitely have a nute deficiency but my question is, What are all these black spots I am getting? I have 3 in flower all with the same nute cycle but only 1 has these black spots. My light was a little close to the plants but I backed it off a bit today. Dont think thats the problem though as I am using leds and they dont get too hot in there. What im thinking from reading threw this is a mag deficiency or maybe mold?. I also noticed that on top of one of my colas i have a bit of really bright red. Only one 1 cola out the 3 plants in flower has the red in it. Thought that was a bit odd? Any addvice would be greatly appreciated.
> View attachment 2689035View attachment 2689036View attachment 2689037


With such limited info, it's anybody's guess. Leaf spots is just an indication of impending leaf necrosis. It's a symptom. 

What foods have you been using?


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## bootkiller (Jun 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nothing, the damage has been done. Just try to keep as many healthy leaves as possible until harvest. IOW, shit can the bloom foods!
> 
> Again.........
> 
> ...


so wait.. your saying its ok to use (N) during Flowering even at 7 weeks in?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2013)

bootkiller said:


> so wait.. your saying its ok to use (N) during Flowering even at 7 weeks in?


It's not only OK, it's what you should be doing to support green healthy leaves. If you search out my posts you'll see references to me using a slow release 18-4-9 until harvest and a reference to Homebrewers recent test using 6 clones testing a low P food, Foliage Pro 9-3-6 against DG's Grow food. The yield of the high N food was 10% higher than the high P food. It's at another forum with a short version here. Here are a few pix which I C/P - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-76.html

Curious, why do you guys put so much faith in markets who sell you what they think you want to hear and buy and not science? It's not bloom foods that produce, it's foliage. See my first post.

Cannabis is nothing more than a tropical foliage plant that blooms, which all foliage plants do.

UB


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## ltjs (Jun 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> With such limited info, it's anybody's guess. Leaf spots is just an indication of impending leaf necrosis. It's a symptom.
> 
> What foods have you been using?



I am in week 3 of flowering. All I am using is humboldt nutrients bloom natural 0-10-0 and has 10% cal nothing else. I have been doing half dosage untill now. I was going to switch over to age old bloom wich is 5-10-5. Im sure that will help with the yellowing of the leafs but i want to get rid of the black spots. None of my growth has slowed down its just the discoloration that i am worried about.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2013)

ltjs said:


> I am in week 3 of flowering. All I am using is humboldt nutrients bloom natural 0-10-0 and has 10% cal nothing else. I have been doing half dosage untill now. I was going to switch over to age old bloom wich is 5-10-5. Im sure that will help with the yellowing of the leafs but i want to get rid of the black spots. None of my growth has slowed down its just the discoloration that i am worried about.


With those nutes, your plants are toast.

Par for the course.


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## ltjs (Jun 11, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> With those nutes, your plants are toast.
> 
> Par for the course.


update. i fed them 3 days ago with a full dose of age old bloom plus a full dose of general organics camg+. They look like they are bouncing back. A few more leafs have faded a little yellow but some of the yellow leafs are getting their green back. Leafs stopped doing the weird bending stuff and all black spots are now gone  . For now it looks like i am on course for recovery. We will see how the next few days go. I will put up pictures later. Oh and growth is going great. Had to tie up some branches do to too much weight up top.


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## ltjs (Jun 11, 2013)

these were taken today. looking much better now.


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## Tempe420 (Aug 4, 2013)

Whats the verdict on which of the JACKS products is best for Coco medium?


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## Dboi87 (Aug 17, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Case in point, here is an example of how important it is to maintain leaves in a healthy green condition. I added a little too much blood meal to my potting soil, didn't get any burn though and that's what's important. The side benefit of maintaining leaf health is getting a double harvest too. Harvest #1 - snip the cola at a point where it turns from a "fat can" to airy buds, and place the plant back under the lights to bulk up them up, for harvest #2....it makes a big difference in overall yield.
> 
> *42 days into flowering with LOT'S of chlorophyll:* *
> 
> ...


In a couple of those pics you had yellowing leaves. At what point is yellowing leaves ok to where I don't have to worry about upping the nitrogen?


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 17, 2013)

Those were the early days when I too bought into the high P bloom foods. 

I don't have a firm answer for you other than you need go get started and learn from experience. A balanced food will work if you need a point to start from.

UB


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## Dboi87 (Aug 18, 2013)

What are your thoughts on curing? Do you? And if so What methods worked best for you? Mels book had a bunch and even said some people don't at all


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## Tempe420 (Aug 21, 2013)

What do you guys think about this as a 1 stop shop product. Has Cal+Mg in it as well.


http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-LX/15-5-15-Ca--Mg-LX.html


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 21, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> What are your thoughts on curing? Do you? And if so What methods worked best for you? Mels book had a bunch and even said some people don't at all


Hang 'em to mostly dry, cut up, bag, and burp the bag until the stems snap.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 21, 2013)

Tempe420 said:


> What do you guys think about this as a 1 stop shop product. Has Cal+Mg in it as well.
> View attachment 2785144
> 
> http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-LX/15-5-15-Ca--Mg-LX.html


Would probably be fine but it's high in Ca and low in Fe. If you're water supply is low in Ca, try it. Check out the Citrus FeED.


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## papajohn (Aug 29, 2013)

good read ub


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## Tempe420 (Aug 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Would probably be fine but it's high in Ca and low in Fe. If you're water supply is low in Ca, try it. Check out the Citrus FeED.


We use RO which has no Ca or Mg to speak of. Which is why this was appealing. We grow in Coco so this would give us our nutes and our Cal Mag in 1 stop shop.

Wish I could try less than 25lbs!


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## Tempe420 (Aug 30, 2013)

Citrus feed seems to have no Calcium in it is that correct?


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 30, 2013)

Tempe420 said:


> Citrus feed seems to have no Calcium in it is that correct?


According to their analysis, that is correct.


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## JonnyAppleSeed420 (Oct 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> *The question is - "how much P is enough to support a good flowering response and still retain my leaves?"*


Very good read Ben. I don't understand why you would want to support the leaves when even the plant doesn't want the leaves and is trying to get rid of them? When grown correctly your plants will still begin to drop leaves at a certain stage, it has too, life is shot. If you know botany then you know that a flowering plant will change from leaf production to flower production. You and your leaves???? The plant is getting rid of them and your forcing them to keep them. What's worse? Not everyone has the ability to read their plants and feed accordingly and for this reason bloom formula's was marketed. I agree they are abused and not used properly but when the general public has no clue, what do you expect? _JAS_


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## lilman (Nov 23, 2013)

Hola from Canada UB..

I know your a fan of jacks 10-30-20 but its a real bitch and expensive to get it up here. whats your opinion on 15 30 15 for bloom ? Is it to much N and not enough K ? or does that fit the bill ?

Peace, LM


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 23, 2013)

lilman said:


> Hola from Canada UB..
> 
> I know your a fan of jacks 10-30-20 but its a real bitch and expensive to get it up here. whats your opinion on 15 30 15 for bloom ? Is it to much N and not enough K ? or does that fit the bill ?
> 
> Peace, LM


Probably not enough N and too much P. Try it. If you get premature leaf drop, it's not a good thing.


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## lilroach (Nov 23, 2013)

JonnyAppleSeed420 said:


> Very good read Ben. I don't understand why you would want to support the leaves when even the plant doesn't want the leaves and is trying to get rid of them? When grown correctly your plants will still begin to drop leaves at a certain stage, it has too, life is shot. If you know botany then you know that a flowering plant will change from leaf production to flower production. You and your leaves???? The plant is getting rid of them and your forcing them to keep them. What's worse? Not everyone has the ability to read their plants and feed accordingly and for this reason bloom formula's was marketed. I agree they are abused and not used properly but when the general public has no clue, what do you expect? _JAS_



I have to ask how you force a plant to keep it's leaves? If a plant works as you describe, it'll get rid of the leaves regardless of nutrients right? When I read stuff like this....I always ask "How do outdoor growers flush or deprive a plant of nutrients?" since outdoor growing is all about nature to begin with. Look through anyone's outdoor grow pics just before harvest....do you see any yellowing or dropping of leaves as you describe?


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## lilroach (Nov 23, 2013)

Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds Cricket sounds


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## LarryOG (Nov 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Probably not enough N and too much P. Try it. If you get premature leaf drop, it's not a good thing.


Hi Uncle Ben, seen you over a decade and a half ago on overgrow I believe, your a good soil grower. May I ask you a few questions I don't understand? I don't understand why you say this is not enough N and too much P. You recommended a 10-30-20 which is basically 2-6-4. He asked about a 15-30-15 which is 3-6-3. How is this not enough N and too much P? It looks like the same amount of phosphorus and more nitrogen. Just has slightly less potassium or am I wrong here?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2013)

LarryOG said:


> Hi Uncle Ben, seen you over a decade and a half ago on overgrow I believe, your a good soil grower. May I ask you a few questions I don't understand? I don't understand why you say this is not enough N and too much P. You recommended a 10-30-20 which is basically 2-6-4. He asked about a 15-30-15 which is 3-6-3. How is this not enough N and too much P? It looks like the same amount of phosphorus and more nitrogen. Just has slightly less potassium or am I wrong here?


Man, that does go way back!

Whether you're using a 10-30-20 or a 15-30-15, as I have said many times using one of my usual caveats, the exclusive use of such a high P food can induce premature leaf drop. A high P food can also induce micro deficiencies, something Jack Peters addressed when he formulated his bloom food. I also love Peters Citrus FeED. It's another great food. Lots of choices out there.....

Best,
Tio


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## ~Dankster~420 (Jan 15, 2014)

Good points. What I have found that works 4 me is right around the time I take my babies from veg to flower I will water with plain H2o + flora plus then ph'd for a few days, then I start back with my flowering nutrients at a lower ppm reading, then (depending on how each strain reacts) I start increasing the ppm readings to what I try to reach at what weeks of cycle the plants are in. Different cycles require being dosed with less/more of the NPK imo. Towards the end of flowering (last 3 to 5 day period) I finish up with my nutes and switch over to plain water + flora nectar for taste + molasses, although I usually use molasses throughout the entire growing cycle. But 4 real, good info. Makes since to add in a little more (N) just to keep um nice and green, and not run into a (N) and or any other issues during flowering, which as im sure we all know will mess with the entire outcome of the said plant/plants/


Uncle Ben said:


> It's not only OK, it's what you should be doing to support green healthy leaves. If you search out my posts you'll see references to me using a slow release 18-4-9 until harvest and a reference to Homebrewers recent test using 6 clones testing a low P food, Foliage Pro 9-3-6 against DG's Grow food. The yield of the high N food was 10% higher than the high P food. It's at another forum with a short version here. Here are a few pix which I C/P - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-76.html
> 
> Curious, why do you guys put so much faith in markets who sell you what they think you want to hear and buy and not science? It's not bloom foods that produce, it's foliage. See my first post.
> 
> ...


----------



## ~Dankster~420 (Mar 5, 2014)

Hey.. I have been reading a few of your posts & find your information to be very informative. Thanks 4 your work as a fellow grower.  I have now ventured into another little side hobby myself. SHROOMS. Have you, or do you know any information on growing them ?: Although I have had some really cool guy helping me on y thread, I find some information to be mixed, and or confusing at times. Such as my medium to use in my fruiting chamber. Some say perlite, some say don't f'n use it. lol So im lost on that part. It was 1 week today I inoculated them. I have started to see growth in jar#1 &#1 of the GT. BUT. Growth in the jar#1 has a small patch of "light green" stuff going on. Can't seem to get confirmation as to if its contaminated ?: Would you mind taking a look please .. Thanks bud. https://www.rollitup.org/hallucinatory-substances/800333-dark-side-moon-17.html#post10275675


Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2014)

Only fungi I ate was psylocybin growing wild in cowpies.


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## Green Munchie (May 28, 2014)

Hi Uncle Ben 

Im growing some indoor and currently using bio bloom and fish emulsion in coco peat.can i continue with these through the flowering phase?


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## Greensea (May 29, 2014)

I wish i have seen this post before i ruined like u described at start with too soon switching to flowering nutes... :/
Im in 4th week flowering of my 1st attemp on cloning... I have 14 clones 6 of them vegged 3 weeks 8 vegged only 1 week...
I experimented a bit on them like LST, supercroping and just free grow....
All plants which I left free growth, are super healthy, the Lst plants are doing fine...

The problem emerged in those which I have done supercroping,I think this is because they need more time to steching ...
im wrong?

Ok i got a BIGG lesson i think...  And all my previous problems originate from that issue... To much and to soon P...
I can not wait to use these ticks on the next grow!!!

Here is my current "problem" if u wanna follow and help how to recover those 3 afflicted plants:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/day-30-flowering-some-plants-yellowing.830830/


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## Dr. Who (May 29, 2014)

UB is SOOO Correct about this problem.....I have gotten tired of answering the ever present question of, "My leaves are turning yellow, what do I do/What is my problem?") The sad part is that 98% of the following answers are "low N/add more N".....

The use of high P bloom feeds is promoted by nutrient makers with no shame! They only want your money by making wild claims!

Avoid the yellow out. Do not do ANY increase in P till at the very least week 4 of bloom and then only a VERY minor bump will work in your favor. I might spike it ONCE, at 6 weeks in certain strains and almost NEVER in any Sativa.....Try it and see for yourself.

Go UB!


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## greasemonkeymann (May 29, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's the blind leading the blind, folks pushing rocket fuel names rather than sound plant culture. FWIW, I use the term "forum paradigms" quite frequently in cannabis forums.
> 
> Rational thought will set you free,
> UB


 can't believe i'm the frst person to like this particular post. Absolute GOLDEN wisdom.


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## DonAlejandroVega (May 29, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Only fungi I ate was psylocybin growing wild in cowpies.


better than lab shrooms........imo.


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## DonAlejandroVega (May 29, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> can't believe i'm the frst person to like this particular post. Absolute GOLDEN wisdom.


totally agree. you can't force a plant to do anything; not even with a gun. support it with adequate nutrition, and IDEAL conditions


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## greasemonkeymann (May 29, 2014)

DonAlejandroVega said:


> totally agree. you can't force a plant to do anything; not even with a gun. support it with adequate nutrition, and IDEAL conditions


 yeah, damnit, not even with a gun!


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## Mellodrama (May 29, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Check out the Citrus FeED.


Jack's FeED webpage doesn't show a Citrus version.

http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-FeED.html


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## Sativied (May 29, 2014)

---------------------
"_The production of cannabinoids (THC, CBN, CBD, etc.) is greatly influenced by nutrients. As soil N increases relative to Mg, CBD increases relative to CBN. Increasing 
the ratio of N to Cu increases the level of CBD. Increasing amounts of P convert CBN to THC. Low to medium levels of P produces a high level of CBD, but CBD decreases with high levels of P. Low levels (levels less than 40 ppm) of Mg produce more CBD than do high levels of Mg. As levels of Mg increase relative to Ca, the concentration of THC decreases. The concentration of Mg and Fe in leaves is positively correlated to THC levels. Potassium increases the concentration of CBN by effecting the dehydrogenation of THC. An excess of K in the 3rd month will inhibit resin production. Excess Ca will inhibit resin production, and it increases the production of CBD in the resin is produced. Either an excess or deficiency of Mg produces more CBD. 5 ppm Fe gives highest yields of THC_."

"_Cannabis is nitrophilic, but if the plant is grown for its resin, the supply [of N] should be kept under 400 ppm, and it must be reduced to about 100 ppm during flowering. The application of N should be reduced 20% in very hot weather._"

"_Cannabis uses 250% more phosphorus at flowering than during the vegetative phase_."

Src: rexresearch - in the context of comparing to growing hemp for fiber.Don't know how reliable, interesting claims though.
--------------------

Besides a difference between strains and phenos, I noticed it differs a lot per grow medium. N leaches more easily from soil than P, requiring the grower to add more N. In recirculating hydroponics, you don't need as much N as it quickly leads to 'too much'. When I use the same nutrient solution from my recirculating setup for my cocos or hempy plants, I need to increase the ppm and in particular N ('grow nutes' or A component of AB nutes) to keep them green. It's not about the ratio you put in your water or soil but the ratio of the nutrients that are actually available. In soil there's a lot of variation, even within a single pot.

Some day I'll get a hanna photometer, till then I will just let the plants tell me what they want. Which so far is "decrease the N a little" during flowering" (a subtle yet huge different from increasing P and/or K).

Completely agree with the thread title though. I like to refer to PK13/14 as Plant Killer 13/14.


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## Uncle Ben (May 29, 2014)

Green Munchie said:


> Hi Uncle Ben
> 
> Im growing some indoor and currently using bio bloom and fish emulsion in coco peat.can i continue with these through the flowering phase?


If you want to, yes.


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 22, 2014)

Uncle Ben has it correct, you must maintain healthy leaves to flower so why all these canna specific nutrients have little to no nitrogen makes no sense. UB I have been following you for about 7 years now on various threads and I must say that you have always had it correct. Here's the proof. $9.99 for a tub of nutes. Well done unc.

    

And flushing is for toilets


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 23, 2014)

Nice job! I admire a grower who can and will keep plants' leaves healthy and green until the end.

Happy you listened......


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job! I admire a grower who can and will keep plants' leaves healthy and green until the end.
> 
> Happy you listened......


Thanks UB. It really is one of the easiest plants to grow and it's amazing how overly complicated some people make growing it (it's also quite amusing to read all the hilarious things people do and believe on these sites, some of which just go completely against the grain of general botany common sense and yet all these people seem to think this plant is different than any other plant). if you ever make it to my neck of the woods I owe you a couple of cold ones for your wisdom and saving me hundreds of dollars in canna specific BS that don't work. I'm still using just my second tub of citrus feed after all these years, $9.99 1.5 lb tub goes a heck of a long way! To bad jacks isn't a sponsor here or they might put everyone else out of business if their secret got out...


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 23, 2014)

Words of wisdom. 

I'll take you up on the cold one! 

Just pulled the trigger on this. When you consider it's almost as cheap as a 1.5 lb. tub after shipping costs and all, it's a steal at $2.12/lb ! About the same profile as the citrus feed except lower in P. Should be perfect for cannabis.

http://www.amazon.com/77770-Petunia-Magnesium-Fertilizer-25-Pound/dp/B002HJGULU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1414075749&sr=8-2&keywords=Jr Peters Petunia Feed


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Words of wisdom.
> 
> I'll take you up on the cold one!
> 
> ...


You got a deal there my friend, While I surely would love to try that, I think 25 lbs would last me multiple lifetimes! Maybe fill a small tub perhaps an old citrus tub and send me a sample since you now have 25lbs Lol. I'm sure it will just further prove how little P you need to grow this stuff.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 23, 2014)

Growerguy420 said:


> You got a deal there my friend, While I surely would love to try that, I think 25 lbs would last me multiple lifetimes! Maybe fill a small tub perhaps an old citrus tub and send me a sample since you now have 25lbs Lol. I'm sure it will just further prove how little P you need to grow this stuff.


I hope to spit the bag with a friend or two.

I have posted photos of 7' tall O. Haze that was grown with Polyon 18-4-9 with micros from start to finish. 12 month slow release. Scratch some into the surface, water and forget it. I use this Polyon on everything around the farm.


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I hope to spit the bag with a friend or two.
> 
> I have posted photos of 7' tall O. Haze that was grown with Polyon 18-4-9 with micros from start to finish. 12 month slow release. Scratch some into the surface, water and forget it. I use this Polyon on everything around the farm.
> 
> View attachment 3279258


Thats a smart idea. For now I will stick with the citrus as it has yet to let me down and maybe when I see your results it will entice to go for the 25lb bag


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 23, 2014)

Posted this over at the Riddle site, just to compare. And yes, it does have sulfur.

Just comparing...

 Citrus FeED 20-10-20

Total Nitrogen (N) 20%
2% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
3% Nitrate Nitrogen
15% Urea Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 10%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 20%
Magnesium (Mg) 1%
1% water soluble magnesium (Mg)
Sulfur (S) 4.9%
Boron (B) 0.02%
Copper (Cu) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe) 0.15%
0.15% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn) 0.075%
0.075% Chelated Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009%
Zinc (Zn) 0.05%

Petunia with Mg 20-3-19

Total Nitrogen (N) 20%
8.04% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
11.96% Nitrate Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 3%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 19%
Magnesium (Mg) 1.34%
1.34% water soluble magnesium (Mg)
Boron (B) 0.02%
Copper (Cu) 0.01%
0.01% Chelated Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe) 0.20%
0.20% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.01%
Zinc (Zn) 0.05%


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Posted this over at the Riddle site, just to compare. And yes, it does have sulfur.
> 
> Just comparing...
> 
> ...


Wonder if you will notice any differences between the Urea nitrogen and the nitrate nitrogen. I am eager to see your results...it certainly has a nice balanced chemical makeup


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 23, 2014)

Growerguy420 said:


> Wonder if you will notice any differences between the Urea nitrogen and the nitrate nitrogen. I am eager to see your results...it certainly has a nice balanced chemical makeup


I think the urea will have more of an acidic affect albeit slight. Great ammonical to nitrate balance with both foods. 

I think it comes down to value as they're both pretty much the same. I just wasn't willing to pay the high prices of the Citrus so I went looking for alternates after doing my research.


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 23, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I think the urea will have more of an acidic affect albeit slight. Great ammonical to nitrate balance with both foods.
> 
> I think it comes down to value as they're both pretty much the same. I just wasn't willing to pay the high prices of the Citrus so I went looking for alternates after doing my research.


That makes sense, yes I don't know if you'll be able to really notice any difference, only time and grow experience will tell.


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## shannonball (Oct 23, 2014)

agree about how complicated people make their grows, using tons of chemicals and spending hundreds of dollars. we use the best soil we can find, which is a mix of happy frog and ocean forest, a little bat guano tea, root organics sometimes along with some molasses. nothing complicated at all our plants stay green throughout the whole cycle. we're mainly doing auto's. 3 at a time, spring and fall. 
its all we need for us two. usually one sativa, one indica and something fun or different.


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 23, 2014)

shannonball said:


> agree about how complicated people make their grows, using tons of chemicals and spending hundreds of dollars. we use the best soil we can find, which is a mix of happy frog and ocean forest, a little bat guano tea, root organics sometimes along with some molasses. nothing complicated at all our plants stay green throughout the whole cycle. we're mainly doing auto's. 3 at a time, spring and fall.
> its all we need for us two. usually one sativa, one indica and something fun or different.


That's much to complicated for me. I run straight promix with jacks citrus feed every watering $9.99 for a 1.5lb tub through the whole cycle


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## shannonball (Oct 23, 2014)

to each their own.as long as your happy with what u do, then stay with that. 
we make 5 gallons of guano tea and use as needed, molasses in flowering every other water. root organics is for root development. 

we try to stay 100% organic. 

no flushing, no chemicals....sweet smoke. 

peace


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## Growerguy420 (Oct 23, 2014)

Exactly! Whatever works for you. Well spoken. I also don't flush, I use only jacks citrus feed, don't know if that's organic or not but the bud looks smells and tastes amazing every time.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 24, 2014)

shannonball said:


> to each their own.as long as your happy with what u do, then stay with that.
> we make 5 gallons of guano tea and use as needed, molasses in flowering every other water. root organics is for root development.
> 
> we try to stay 100% organic.
> ...


Since when did "organics" contain no chemicals?


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## VX420 (Oct 25, 2014)

Book marked for Organic VS Chem War


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## bravedave (Oct 25, 2014)

The thread caught my eye as I just finished my first grow a month ago and the cookbook provided me utilized Fertilome 9-58-8 started with first watering of 12/12 through to final. I did see some results that could have been P overload but I pretty much pyshed through it to a good finish. Used their 20-20-20 product during veg and we were nothing but fast growing and green. So, Jacks might be the choice for round 2.


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## shannonball (Oct 27, 2014)

when i say chemical, i'm talking man (woman) made fertilizers. for example, bat guano is not man made nor is alpaca poop. But since you asked, here's a comparison. I don't care what anyone uses, as long they are happy with their grow results. We prefer organic growing, Our choice.

Organic Fertilizers are materials derived from plant and animal parts or residues. Examples are Blood Meal, Compost, Bat Guano, Manure, Seaweed, and Worm Castings.

Synthetic Fertilizers are “Man made” inorganic compounds - usually derived from by-products of the petroleum industry. Examples are Ammonium Nitrate, Ammonium Phosphate, Superphosphate, and Potassium Sulfate.

Plants require 13 nutrients. There are three primary macronutrients; nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), and potassium (K). These nutrients are used in significant amounts by growing plants, so they must be replaced periodically to sustain productivity.

The secondary nutrients are; calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), and sulfur (S). There are usually enough of these nutrients in the soil, so additional fertilization is not always needed. The micronutrients used in small quantities are; boron (B), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), chloride (Cl), manganese (Mn), molybdenum (Mo) and zinc (Zn).

Plants cannot distinguish between an organic or synthetic fertilizer – the nutrients are processed in exactly the same way. However, the similarity stops there.

Chemical fertilizers add nutrients to the soil, but they don’t add anything else. Plants needs more than just nutrients to survive. They also need organic matter and living organisms.

Synthetic fertilizers do not support microbiological life in the soil. The application of a synthetic fertilizer actually kills a significant percentage of beneficial microorganisms. These tiny creatures are responsible for breaking down organic matter into a stable amendment for improving soil quality and fertility. Some convert nitrogen from the air into a plant useable form.

Compost and organic material introduce beneficial microorganisms into the soil’s complex mix. Microorganisms commonly found in soil and compost convert organic nitrogen into inorganic nitrogen, a process called mineralization. Plants may then take up the nutrients released by this process. Composts contain an astonishing variety of microbes, many of which may be beneficial in controlling pathogens. 

Organic matter improves soil structure, resulting in a crumb-like structure that improves water retention, air infiltration and enhances soil fertility. Microorganisms can also break down contaminants in the soil and water to components that pose less of an environmental hazard.



Organic amendments(which include more than nutrients) can be highly variable in composition. They are also a dilute source of nutrients compared to inorganic fertilizers, so the nutritive shock to the growing system isn't as noticeable. Because of this diluted feature, organic materials might be more expensive than petroleum-based synthetic fertilizers and might be difficult to justify economically for large-scale production.

And if you don't like to get your hands dirty, you might shy away from the earthy qualities of organic soil amendments that mimic nature's own highly variable results based on microbiological activity and soil temperature.

Synthetic fertilizers usually do not contain micronutrients and they do not support microbiological life in the soil. Because of their high concentration, they can easily be over-applied and can "burn" plant roots, or create toxic level of salts. When synthetic fertilizers release nutrients too quickly, they can create a great deal of top growth before the roots are able to balance the growth underground. This top-heavy growth often leads to weaker and disease prone plants, with less fruiting.


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 27, 2014)

I use both organics like manure and compost and synthetics. Best of both worlds.

I have raised from start to finish outdoor grown cannabis with a 12 month release Polyon, 18-4-9 (similar to Osmocote). Just got in JR Peters Petunia FeED, 20-3-19, with added Mg and think I'm really gonna like it. Cheap, complete and comes in tiny prills form. Easier to measure and store. Dye is black not blue.

UB


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## shannonball (Oct 27, 2014)

what is dye is black not blue?


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## Sativied (Oct 27, 2014)

shannonball said:


> Organic Fertilizers are materials derived from plant and animal parts or residues. Examples are Blood Meal, Compost, Bat Guano, Manure, Seaweed, and Worm Castings.
> 
> Synthetic Fertilizers are “Man made” inorganic compounds - usually derived from by-products of the petroleum industry.


You say you don't care what anyone else says, while clearly you do as you didn't make the above up yourself. Not going to debunk every piece of false info you posted in there, but really read this: http://depletedcranium.com/once-again-fertilizer-is-not-petroleum-based/

I will take my quality (foodgrade) clean synthetics over your bat guano and slaughterhouse waste any day, and so do my plants


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## shannonball (Oct 27, 2014)

Sativied said:


> You say you don't care what anyone else says, while clearly you do as you didn't make the above up yourself. Not going to debunk every piece of false info you posted in there, but really read this: http://depletedcranium.com/once-again-fertilizer-is-not-petroleum-based/
> 
> I will take my quality (foodgrade) clean synthetics over your bat guano and slaughterhouse waste any day, and so do my plants


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## Sativied (Oct 27, 2014)

Good post


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## Milovan (Oct 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> _I wrote this years ago and thought I'd share it here._
> 
> *The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering*
> 
> ...


What if you use a high P fert and get no deficits?


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## shannonball (Oct 27, 2014)

first off i never said i don't care what "anyone says" and you're correct i pulled that from the internet so what. At least the information is valid. 

I never said ALL chemical based ferts are petroleum based. it said "usually derived from by-products of the petroleum industry." that's not all inclusive and "usually" is operative word in that sentecne. 

What slaughterhouse waster are you taking about? Alpaca's are raised for their wool not meat. 

I'll take this person's information over some site call the Depleted Cranium. At least the guy appears to be intelligent enough to have Ph,D. 

http://www.extension.umn.edu/garden/yard-garden/lawns/characteristics-of-natural-and-manufactured-fertilizers/


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## Sativied (Oct 27, 2014)

Oh you said "uses"... well you got me there.



shannonball said:


> What slaughterhouse waster are you taking about?


You're joking right? Read carefully again what you copied and pasted.... Also, Bat guano and the ideals of growing organic don't fit together either.



shannonball said:


> I'll take this person's information over some site call the Depleted Cranium.


If the info and the domains were swapped you'd be taking the other guy's words... it's called confirmation bias. The doc you posted makes one ridiculous statement about petroleum, "The manufactured fertilizers normally are made from petroleum and natural gas". It's that typical nonsense that sparked the other article with the fitting title... "once again"... It is simply a false statement when it comes to the high grade quality nutes many of us use. It requires petroleum to make it, it's not based on petroleum. How much petroleum do you think is wasted on having all those bags shipped to your house and that bat cave destroyed...


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## t0ny4n (Oct 27, 2014)

Dear Uncle Ben,
I'm newbie here, this is my first time in growing herbs
I've 2 plants here (Super Lemon Haze & Diesel Ryder) and i switched light to 12/12 6 days ago, and my lower leaves at both plants are turning yellow like you said.
I don't know what should i do now?
I never use nutrients before, just watering by nature water.
Can i use this NPK 10-30-20 now ?

N: 10%
P2O5: 30%
K2O: 20%
Mg: 0,05%
Ca: 0,05%
B: 0,03%
Zn: 0,05%
Cu: 0,05%
Fe: 0,075%
Mn: 0,05%
Mo: 0,005%
GA3, αNAA, bNOA

Sorry, i'm in Vietnam (country with Dalat city if you remember _Di Wee Dalat_) , so i can't find other brand with 10-30-20, it's hard in my country.
I've some pictures of my plants here, pls give me some advice


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 27, 2014)

For starts, don't us dirt. Start with a good potting soil. 

Your plants could use a 30-10-10 with chelated micros now. I see too much leaf yellowing and some leaf chlorosis going on. Stay away from the 10-30-20.

Speaking of DiWeeDalat, he gifted me quite a few Dalat beans and I recently gifted some to a few folks. Check this out - https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-34

How do you know DiWeeDalat? Last time I heard (10 years ago) he had bought some beachfront property in Costa Rica.

Good luck


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 27, 2014)

Milovan said:


> What if you use a high P fert and get no deficits?


Did you finish or you still flowering?


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## Milovan (Oct 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Did you finish or you still flowering?


I just finished in the past couple of days.
Great thread and thank you for all you help and expertise!


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## t0ny4n (Oct 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> For starts, don't us dirt. Start with a good potting soil.
> 
> Your plants could use a 30-10-10 with chelated micros now. I see too much leaf yellowing and some leaf chlorosis going on. Stay away from the 10-30-20.
> 
> ...


Of course i want to start with a good potting soil with perfect pH range 6.0 - 6.5, but it's really hard to find in Vietnam. Can i start with Vermicompost ? 
And my Diesel Ryder is start flowering now, so i'll use 30-10-10 for both of plants ? When will we use 10-30-20 ?
Sorry, i'm really newbie here 
About Di Wee Dalat, i don't know him, i just find 'vietnam cannabis' in google and read Di Wee Dalat's story in Vietnam and I was caught in it. I find everything abt Di Wee Dalat, that's why i know about you, he gifted you some seeds. I always wish that I had one of them lol 
Sorry for bad English, thanks for your help !


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 27, 2014)

Vermicompost is excellent. Make up your own soil using something along the lines of 50% inorganic, 50% organic. Blood and bone meal are good sources of a slow release N and P. 

Your English is better than most who was raised on it!


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## t0ny4n (Oct 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Vermicompost is excellent. Make up your own soil using something along the lines of 50% inorganic, 50% organic. Blood and bone meal are good sources of a slow release N and P.
> 
> Your English is better than most who was raised on it!


Oh, thank you so much, i'll use Vermicompost next time.
Tomorrow i'll buy a 30-10-10 for this time and when will i can use 10-30-20 because i know 30-10-10 is common use in veg time and 10-30-20 for flowering time right ?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 27, 2014)

t0ny4n said:


> Oh, thank you so much, i'll use Vermicompost next time.
> Tomorrow i'll buy a 30-10-10 for this time and when will i can use 10-30-20 because i know 30-10-10 is common use in veg time and 10-30-20 for flowering time right ?


Not necessarily. You use whatever keeps leaves green and healthy until harvest. I've grown many a plant with a high N food from start to finish.

Don't believe everything you read or hear.


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## t0ny4n (Oct 27, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not necessarily. You use whatever keeps leaves green and healthy until harvest. I've grown many a plant with a high N food from start to finish.
> 
> Don't believe everything you read or hear.


Yep, all i want to see is my babes in full of green 
Thank you so much Uncle Ben


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## shannonball (Oct 28, 2014)

moving on,I really couldn't care less.


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## t0ny4n (Nov 17, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not necessarily. You use whatever keeps leaves green and healthy until harvest. I've grown many a plant with a high N food from start to finish.
> 
> Don't believe everything you read or hear.


Dear Uncle Ben,
Now i'm back, i've watered 30-10-10 like u said before for 3 times, the plants is fine, they all green now but the buds is small.
Can i go for 10-30-20 ? Now is 26 days since i switched the light to 12/12 and u can look the buds is small here.


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## butterbudface (Nov 17, 2014)

give it time


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## chuck estevez (Nov 17, 2014)

t0ny4n said:


> Dear Uncle Ben,
> Now i'm back, i've watered 30-10-10 like u said before for 3 times, the plants is fine, they all green now but the buds is small.
> Can i go for 10-30-20 ? Now is 26 days since i switched the light to 12/12 and u can look the buds is small here.


they look great for the lighting you are using, good soil and nutes can only do so much, they are just a small part of the whole equation.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 17, 2014)

Yep, give it time and understand it's healthy leaves that produce buds, NOT bloom foods. Don't force the plant, let it do it's own thing. 

BTW, what variety is that? Sure looks like pure Vietnamese to me. You guys still have landraces? I've recently gifted some friends Dalat. One fella in Santa Cruz has some huge specimens outdoors, probably a month from finishing.

Good luck


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## t0ny4n (Nov 18, 2014)

butterbudface said:


> give it time





chuck estevez said:


> they look great for the lighting you are using, good soil and nutes can only do so much, they are just a small part of the whole equation.


Thank you guys so much !



Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, give it time and understand it's healthy leaves that produce buds, NOT bloom foods. Don't force the plant, let it do it's own thing.
> 
> BTW, what variety is that? Sure looks like pure Vietnamese to me. You guys still have landraces? I've recently gifted some friends Dalat. One fella in Santa Cruz has some huge specimens outdoors, probably a month from finishing.
> 
> Good luck


Thank you Uncle Ben, i'll wait to see the result.
And i'm growing Super Lemon Haze & Diesel Ryder.
We still have landraces, Vietnam Black & Mekong High. But i'm not sure they are one with seeds u've been gifted from Dalat Di Wee, I don't know what strain it is, but i love to see it.


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## Growerguy420 (Nov 19, 2014)

t0ny4n said:


> Thank you guys so much !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


patience will lead you to the promise land. Maintain current course of action. I run a 20-10-20 straight through the whole plants life and get perfect buds every time.


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## papajohn (Nov 19, 2014)

ub are there any other brands with a custom blend like the 18-4-9.Harrell's blend a bit hardd to get here and the others at my vendor has mg in it,but i already have dolomite for that.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2014)

Most nurseries and Home Depot carry all kinds of slow release foods.


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## t0ny4n (Nov 24, 2014)

My buds at 32 days in flowering times, is it small ?
I'm using 8 CFL 20watt bulbs.












http://i.imgur.com/jyFjK2m.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5m0SnVq.jpg


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2014)

Large or small is defined by the grower. Looks good to me.


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## ODanksta (Nov 24, 2014)

t0ny4n said:


> Dear Uncle Ben,
> I'm newbie here, this is my first time in growing herbs
> I've 2 plants here (Super Lemon Haze & Diesel Ryder) and i switched light to 12/12 6 days ago, and my lower leaves at both plants are turning yellow like you said.
> I don't know what should i do now?
> ...


Kill it before it breeds.


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## ODanksta (Nov 24, 2014)

t0ny4n said:


> My buds at 32 days in flowering times, is it small ?
> I'm using 8 CFL 20watt bulbs.
> 
> 
> ...


   
Nice turn around, these are some dudes I am using for pollen, the cfl's are killin it.


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## HeartIandhank (Feb 9, 2015)

Hey UB.. someone copy and pasted your "Never ending abuse" write up on 420magazine.com

I wrote up a post suggesting that they might add the author back into the write up.. fucking people..

maybe this link is breaking rules,, fuck, i don't know... oh well. http://www.420magazine.com/forums/how-grow-marijuana/71652-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering-2.html#post2389996
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/how-grow-marijuana/71652-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering-2.html#post2389996


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2015)

HeartIandhank said:


> Hey UB.. someone copy and pasted your "Never ending abuse" write up on 420magazine.com
> 
> I wrote up a post suggesting that they might add the author back into the write up.. fucking people..
> 
> ...


Low lifes have no honor. Steal someone else's work and try to take credit for it. Thanks, but it happens all the time with me. These mods are just as cheesey - 
http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-medical-marijuana-growing/215941-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering.html


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## HeartIandhank (Feb 11, 2015)

In the future you could convert your work to a picture.. that way it cannot be copy and pasted.


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## chuck estevez (Feb 11, 2015)

well, the first post in that thread was made in 2007, Just Sayin


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## swanky (Feb 11, 2015)

Being a part of Public Domain is NOT the issue, common courtesy and decency is. I don't care if you plagiarize every FAQ or post I've written in my 10 years of posting at cannabis forums, just give credit where credit is due. Have the decency to add, not delete the author's name. It's the honorable thing to do.

omen


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## anabanana81 (Oct 20, 2015)

Just wanted to thank uncle Ben and the others who posted this thoughtful, well informed and interesting thread.

The deficiency of nitrogen (and lockout caused by high P) in flower has been a problem for me for the better part of a decade, and I'm stoked to finally be armed with the knowledge to never let it happen again! 

On that note, I live in a city where I have to disclose my fertilizers and pesticides to the higher end dispensaries, and of course they want to see something like botanicare at the very least. 

Dyna Grow or Peter's wouldn't really fly and actually might get me shut out of some of them. And while I'm keeping the Dyna 9-3-6 and 7-9-5 on hand, I've decided to try the Earth Juice Elements line as my full time fertilizer line. 

The line contains a 
16-0-0
0-16-16
Micro at 0-0-1
Cal/mag 2-0-0

This seems like good flexibility with the NPK along w guaranteed micros. 
Has anybody tried this line in soil or peat? 

I took it as a good sign that I had to special order it from my MASSIVE local hydro store, and that it wasn't available at any of the grow stores in this cannabis crazed city. 

I also like that it's super concentrated and the doesage is at the very highest around 3ml per gal. Not these crazy 20-30ml, that botanicare and the other MMJ centric lines call for.


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## AnimalMother1974 (May 3, 2016)

I have an Agent Orange and an unknown heavy indica plants that are about ready 2 weeks from being put on 12/12 and this is useful. I did read the entire thread over the last 3 days.


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## Big boy roy (Jul 18, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> How uncanny. I had just gotten ready to post that particular part here and found you had beat me to it.
> 
> Here's another really important point, balancing foods with water quality:
> 
> ...


Hey ub been growing 20 plus years same strain until recently when i purchased some seeds from herbies is it true that clones taken from these new strains ive grown from seed will be an improvement on the original seed or is that a load of rubish.ur opinion please regards old newbie


wyteboi said:


> this _should _be the very first thing you learn about any plant.
> 
> 3 stupidest myths i still see everyday:
> 
> ...


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## Pete Jones III (Aug 22, 2020)

Growerguy420 said:


> That's much to complicated for me. I run straight promix with jacks citrus feed every watering $9.99 for a 1.5lb tub through the whole cycle


Whats your tap water ppm where this works out for you?


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## Rurumo (Feb 13, 2021)

We were just talking about Uncle Ben, so I thought I'd necro one of his good threads for any new growers that want to take in some wisdom.


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## chicofrito (Jun 3, 2022)

Bump for Dr. Bugbee


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## Billy the Mountain (Jun 3, 2022)

chicofrito said:


> Bump for Dr. Bugbee
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 5143970


Agreed!

Every tomato or pepper formulation I've seen has around 50 ppm Phosphorous, I've long since based my nutes on these rather than any cannabis recommendations.

Any more P just ends up as waste

The PK booster nonsense is cannabis-specific and doesn't exist elsewhere


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