# HPA Without An Accumulator



## PetFlora (Feb 8, 2011)

*I thought I had started a thread here as several peeps answered it. Turns out it was merely a Suggestion Box type thread where I 'suggested' HPA is different enough to deserve its' own sub forum. 

If I get enough interest I will start a journal here as I have 5 seedlings (1.5-2.5" tall) in my DIY bubbler. 

As a personal use grower, I am looking for the benefits of HPA without adding an Accumulator. How close can I get? 

Smart Products is one thing I tried to resolve the problem of pressure drop in between feed cycles, which is what an accumulator resolves. How big a difference will that make when my feed cycles are 3 seconds, (where the first <1second is not full pressure), none of the accumulator growers has answered that for me. Smart Products was kind enough to send me several sets of samples, but each time the quick ramp up of pressure blew them apart. But that was over a year ago; since then they have introduced a lot of new items. 

In the mean time my basic system utilizes Reptile Basics advanced mist kit and upgraded to the Aquatec 8800 but WITHOUT their timer. I use a Sentinel, which is not 100% accurate at one second, which is not that necessary unless you are using an accumulator. I find the single or double mist heads is all I need in an 18G Rubbermaid tote. I am using 2 single head misters at opposite ends and opposite sides to help swirl the mist. I am still playing with on/pause times. Right now I am 3 seconds on- 2:45- 2:30 seconds pause. I watch for wilt and adjust in 15 second increments until it stops.

I am on my fourth HPA grow, the first with all hardware in place from the beginning. It is my first using DM nutes (Gold: Zone, Ad.27, Silica, Grow/Flower A & B). I find DMs nute calculator 25% more concentrated than my Hanna TDS meter says. So far I am happy with DM nutes, but find DM not too helpful (will consider H &G when I run out as peeps here are impressed with their customer service. I tried to push past HPAs recommended flower ppms (~1000) only to get some leaf tip burn, so I dialed back at least until I get some pistil clusters and bud development. If I understood Fatmans' comment on another thread, having them too hot may have actually held bud development back. Made sense once I thought about it. 

Plant size is important to know, as the roots will be as long as the plant is tall. Ample depth is required to prevent tap roots from pooling on the bottom of your root pod; a 3 ft plant has 3 ft roots= 6ft, PLUS you need room under for drainage and over for lights. Also, o**f great importance is realizing that when roots are provided with lot of air space the nutrients can swirl and cover them better. Logic tells me, the more roots that can get misted, the faster, bigger, and greater the bud development. I am now experimenting with AF's to resolve height and depth issues, and to harvest from seed < 75 days. Alas, the seeds I bought privately are not stable. I am over 3 months with barely any signs of pistils.

Hope you will join the adventure. Haters please move on. *


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## rosecitypapa (Feb 8, 2011)

Post some pics!


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## PetFlora (Feb 9, 2011)

Choosing the right nozzle for your application: 

FYI There is a graph near the bottom of this page that gives nozzle flow rates based on psi. I am using the RED nozzles  http://www.cloudtops.com/misting_systems_misting_nozzles/mistingnozzles.php


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## PetFlora (Feb 9, 2011)

*Nute Expense is Relative* to number of plants/mist heads per grow. Due to small feeding portions < 3 seconds ~ every 2-3 minutes 24/7, nute strength is much lower. I usually run 2-300 ppms in early veg and raise weekly to 6-800 in late veg (AFs are a different dynamic). Flower from 600-1300 depending on nutes as well environmental factors. Check for tip burn and adjust accordingly. This grow I am using all Dutch Master Gold- _Silica, Zone, Add.27, Grow and Flower A/B._

I mix 5G at a time, which now lasts 4-5 days. I am using 2 single heads growing two AFs, but have 5 seedlings backing it up- won't know how many females for 2-3 weeks. DM offers 5  Liter jugs for bigger growers. Keep in mind you can recycle up until about the 3rd week of flower. So you are only looking at ~ 5 weeks of D2W (Drain to Waste). I feed the leftovers to my outdoor plants, which love it. 

During flower cycle the chemistry of the female plants changes radically to support bud development, much like a pregnant woman. The nute runoff becomes quite toxic in both pH and ppms. Recirculating these nutes will contaminate the rez, and eventually sicken the plants (roughly 3 weeks into flower first signs appear). The signs appear as nute deficiencies, causing people to add more nutes, which only adds fuel to the fire. 

*Equipment: *Small RV pump (available in AC or DC). Check out Reptile Basics. During Pod Racers journal (some 8-10 years ago, they were blowing pumps up left and right). I have been using a Aquatec 8800 pump ($90) for two years http://aquatec.com/boost.htm , plus single and double mist heads (depends on plant/root size), fittings: get a quick release pet cock drain plug for the rez, and a Y splitter (one each per tote) and tubing. All under $200. I use a Sentinel MDT-1 timer (~$130), inline filter (~$20), rez was a donated 35 pound kitty litter containers, you need extras for premixing nutes) tote price depends on size. 

*Totes:* Rubber maid type. I have not yet found the ideal shape, which would be taller than wider, in search of 20-30G garbage pails. I recommend one plant with a max grow height of 2ft per 18G Rubbermaid tote. Once you see how big the root mass gets in flower you will understand. Keep in mind you need plenty of air space around each root so the mist can rise and fall 360 degrees. I rotate my PVC coupler 180 degrees several times a day for assure max root misting coverage. If growing 2 plants in one tote, put one single mist head on each long side at near opposite ends. Now, if you plan to SOG short plants, you might get 6-8 in a 30G tote- < $15. 

hth


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## PetFlora (Feb 9, 2011)

*About 2 years ago I found Pod Racer's extensive blog. I was intrigued, but I had to read it 3 times, partly because these guys were pioneering it for mj, and were on a whirlwind learning curve, plus Pods esoteric rants.

As to be expected when pioneering, some of the assumptions were wrong, like the N dumping, which was probably nothing more than recirculating toxic runoff due to hormone changes during bud development. 

Pod Racer called it "TAG", I call it High Pressure Aeroponics (HPA) and there is at least one significant variation. I am a personal use grower,so the system you see pictured here is of 2 totes (eaach tote can hold 2-3 AF plants. The pump can probably handle 4 totes. For largeer grows, consider installing an Accumulator. 

Although you could grow trees with HPA (55 G drums) , it's particulary suited to SOG. Why? Root systems are as big as the plant. If you have a 5-6 ft plant you need a two foot cushion all around to mist the entire root mass. Also you need sufficient room below to keep the drain clear. 

Relative Humidity RH inside the root chamber is improtant. Too much and you will soon get gnats, mold, algae, fungus...

If RIU puts up a HPA forum, I will start a journal. 



1. The system in place. Note inline filter (200 mesh screen) between rez and pump


2. PVC couplers come in a variety of sizes. The one on the far left has shortest thread and largest opening. Makes it easier for nutes to get up in there. I almost lost 5 young plants using the others. 



3.PVC couplers with neoprene puck. Note the ledge inside will prevent the plant from falling through once it gets heavy- and it will! 



Roots tend to develop before you see much top growth

This was taken a week ago (9'). This plant was on death's door. I credit HPA with bringing it back. It is now over 12". 



You won't find these roots in any other aero/hydro system, and they are not the best. When the root chamber is totlly dialed in, all those hair like roots will fill with fuzz that are called root hairs. The fuzz significantly increases the surface area, allowing for more nutes to be absorbed at each feeding. 





*​


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## PetFlora (Feb 9, 2011)

Although HPA is 'hydr/aero', it has little in common with conventional hydro/aero. I attempted to adapt a low pressure pod with low pressure pump to high pressure using a high pressure pump, but low pressure mist heads, and long cycle timer. The results were better, but no cigar. You need high pressure pump/ mist heads and a deep cycle timer before your roots will develop properly.

Pro HPA growers focus on their roots instead of the plants. 

My journey to HPA: I started with Drip, then bubble, then low pressure mist (with entirely too long feed cycles) and finally to HPA. 

In HPA you do not use any medium beyond the seed starter cube. If working with clones, you simply insert them into neoprene pucks (which fit perfectly inside PVC couplers), and let them dangle. _Until roots develop you will likely use longer mist times_

What sets HPA apart is optimal nutrient uptake. Only HPA delivers the nutes to the roots as a fine mist- bite size droplets (20-50 micron) that are readily absorbed. As roots can only consume so much per feeding, a deep cycle timer (<2sec) is required to dampen the roots, not soak them as all other DWC systems do. Within ~ 2.5- 3 minutes they are dry enough to feed again- 24/7. When parameters are kept within range, root growth is explosive which is followed by plant/bud growth. 

Do not recirculate nutes after 3rd week of flower. 

Relative Humidity inside the root chamber is as important as rez temp (50-70 degrees). Much above 75% RH and it becomes a breeding ground for gnats, root rot, etc


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## PetFlora (Feb 9, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Post some pics!


I copied all pertinent info from my HPA sub forum request thread. enjoy.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 9, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I copied all pertinent info from my HPA sub forum request thread. enjoy.


Where is that request thread?

I'll "sign the petition".


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## rosecitypapa (Feb 9, 2011)

Thanks for the pics, Petflora! Nice writeup, pretty informative and I like the novel 'net pots'. I have a couple of questions.

Is that a 3/8" water line that you have running in your system of 1/4"?
Where the water line enters the tubs, is that simply a grommet or is it a fitting?
Do you have any pics of your mister placement inside your tubs? 
What is the fitting you used to connect to the kitty litter rez?

Thanks!


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## Mike Young (Feb 9, 2011)

When you say, "do not re-circulate after 3 weeks into flower" would that apply to peeps with larger res's? I run 20-25 gallons for my 2 plants I have now. I like having the larger res, as it's easier to maintain, and needs to be changed less frequently. Eventually I wanna try filling my res to the top, which I think I could get 60 gallons or so, just so I don't have to mess with it for awhile.

Thanks!


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## PetFlora (Feb 10, 2011)

Keep in mind by recirculating, you are basically peeing in your own pool. During veg and early flower it's not that big a problem. However, when the ladies turn motherly, their hormones rage- just like..., well you know. 

During early bud it's still not much of an issue, but after a couple weeks, begin to chart your runoff pH & ppms. This was recommended to me by a seasoned aero grower. I was shocked, but it's only for 3-5 weeks so with a 5G rez, it's not a big deal. Why is your rez so big for 2 plants... whatcha growin, trees? hth


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## Mike Young (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm not sure I understand how re-circ compares to peeing in the pool? If I had probs with root rot, I could see not wanting to spread that nastiness. You're saying that hormones are released from the roots? I thought they're job was to uptake. 

I've read that there's a sweet spot in the ppms that will give you stable ph... Still working on that one. 

I do hope to grow trees, yes. The res is big cause I was hoping to not have to change it out every week. Not my favorite thing to do. I've heard of people never changing their res and getting very respectable results. I'm sure results could've been better. But I'd like to settle in the middle somewhere. Res change once per month???


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## PetFlora (Feb 11, 2011)

I think you misunderstood. A females' hormones change radically in bloom. During this time there is a huge increase in P-K, and therefore increased waste which is released via the roots. This waste *significantly raises the pH and the ppms* of the runoff. Recirculate at your own peril.


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## PetFlora (Feb 11, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> Thanks for the pics, Petflora! Nice writeup, pretty informative and I like the novel 'net pots'. I have a couple of questions.
> 
> Is that a 3/8" water line that you have running in your system of 1/4"? All tubing fittings and mist heads purchased from Reptile Basics.
> Where the water line enters the tubs, is that simply a grommet or is it a fitting? The tail of each mist head fits tightly inside the tubing, or use 't' fittings
> ...



All your answers are next to your questions. I m adding this as a popup says my answer is too short. hth


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## PetFlora (Feb 11, 2011)

In another thread, Atomizer suggested my feed time of 3 seconds was overfeeding my roots. Due to almost losing the plants (their roots were on deaths door) the size of my roots does not truly reflect their age. The small plant has 4 times the root volume as the big one, but the top is half the size of the big one, whose roots are growing daily. During the last week or so I have been adjusting pause time based on the 3 second feed time. Just before lights out last night I cut the on time to 2 seconds and set pause to 1:35. Throughout the day I have been adjusting up to currently 1:55 pause with no sign of wilt. TBC.

If you see an Atomizer post, please send him here. His input is appreciated.


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## PetFlora (Feb 11, 2011)

Following Atomizer's lead, today I experimented with cutting my feed time from ~3 seconds to ~ 2, playing with the pause I started at 1:35 and each hour increased it to an hour before lights out 2:00. 

Interesting development began showing up late this afternoon. Both plants started to look like they do shortly after I FF with DM LL/S. Virtually all leafs are reaching up stretching toward the light. Whee is Atomizer when I need him to explain this????


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## Bob Smith (Feb 11, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Following Atomizer's lead, today I experimented with cutting my feed time from ~3 seconds to ~ 2, playing with the pause I started at 1:35 and each hour increased it to an hour before lights out 2:00.
> 
> Interesting development began showing up late this afternoon. Both plants started to look like they do shortly after I FF with DM LL/S. Virtually all leafs are reaching up stretching toward the light. Whee is Atomizer when I need him to explain this????


Something tells me the "haters please move on" might've turned him off; I know that I took it as directed at him (not that I consider him a hater).


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## PetFlora (Feb 12, 2011)

Small plant was a touch droopy this morning, so I cut pause time back to 1:50. Will keep an eye on it.

*BobS* I hope not. I give usually him his props wherever he provides input. Pretty much the only place we disagree is on whether mine is HPA, and that only because full pressure is not instant as it is with an Accumulator. I'm gonna PM him

Photo update. 

Big Girl (Sat dom) is now 17.5". 12" Indica dom.

Root mass in front belongs to the 17.5. You would think the opposite, right? New roots developing all over. Amazing to think such few healthy roots are supporting this plant.

And finally pistil development starting to show up. I can believe the slowness of these AFs was partly due to sick roots.


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## rosecitypapa (Feb 12, 2011)

PetFlora, thanks for your answers. In the pic of the root mass on the left, what is that white stuff at the bottom of the pvc plant holder?


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## PetFlora (Feb 13, 2011)

*rosecitypapa*: it's a S2G starter cube. A minor issue: the neoprene puck I used is from a previous grow. IMHO, neoprene pucks were designed for cloning, not growing; once the roots are established, the clones are removed to some other device. While the neoprene gives, I don't think it was intended to collar a fat main stem. 

Although it may not be necessary to enlarge the hole, I opened up it up. My concern is not doing so could choke the main stem enough to prevent nutrients and waste from flowing properly just inside the bark area. The hole in this puck is still a little wider than the main stalk at this moment, so the weight of the plant is pushing the main stalk through the puck making the S2G cube visible. hth


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## rosecitypapa (Feb 13, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I think you misunderstood. A females' hormones change radically in bloom. During this time there is a huge increase in P-K, and therefore increased waste which is released via the roots. This waste *significantly raises the pH and the ppms* of the runoff. Recirculate at your own peril.


I always thought that the increase in ppms was due to the uptake of water thus increasing the concentration of nutrients within the solution. Are you saying that as the plant desires an increase in P and K, it metabolizes it and then releases a form of waste P and K?


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## PetFlora (Feb 13, 2011)

Look at what the ppms of NPK of veg nutes are on average (300-600), then look at what the NPK during flower is (800-1000). Although the plant needs a lot more PK during flower production, it can only use so much. also the more it eats the more waste it creates. That waste is toxic compared to the pH/ppms of bloom nutes required. I hope this answers it for you as I am out of ideas on how to convey it.


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## pounce (Feb 13, 2011)

PetFlora,

I don't grow the same things as you guys, but let me share some things that might help you along.

You seem to be resisting an accumulator. If you are going to run low high pressure (I run 1000psi) say less than 125 psi going to an accumulator can really help you scale your system and keep the pressure high. Also, that pump doesn't handle the low flow rate you have it at very well.

Consider a few things. Your simple system is switching the pump on and off to spray. It might be better to grab some solenoids off ebay (24vac) along with an accumulator (a stainless one is about 200). Rig this up with a manifold with a solenoid at each container.

There are a few low cost controllers on the market to control 24vac (or even DC or 120vac) solenoids using relays. You can very easily set this up so that only one solenoid is open at a time thus giving you instant best pressure at each container. Since you can time the firing of the solenoid you can also put some delays in there to give the accumulator time to normalize. You can put a variable pressure switch on the pump to keep the accumulator in the range you want it.

Taking that approach a very efficient low high pressure system can scale to multiple separate containers very easily.

Since I am running 1000psi I have some expensive solenoids (actually 120v). I think if you are running municipal pressure off a pump designed for RV's and whatnot you may actually be able to use irrigation solenoids found at Home Depot or Lowes. These are 24vac. Just don't get ones that are latching since this will complicate your wiring with needing to switch to reverse polarity. I think the Orbit or Rainbird solenoids are about $12.

If you mount the mist heads right after the solenoid you can save pressure in the system. With your mist head rating and timing you can actually calculate how long you might be able to run off the accumulator before the pump kicks in. Another trick if you have too wide of a range in your pressure switch is to add another solenoid that can be fired wide open to a drain or back into your source container to get the pump to kick in and go back to full pressure. You can adjust your controller timing to make something like that work.

I realize you are perhaps trying to keep costs down since this is a small operation. Just wanted to toss some ideas out to you and the other lurkers.


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## PetFlora (Feb 13, 2011)

*Pounce* All good info but this journal is about trying to get close to what an accumulator does without adding all that complexity. Hence the name *HPA without an Accumulator*. That said, feel free to post some pics of plant and roots in mid bloom.


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## pounce (Feb 13, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Pounce* All good info but this journal is about trying to get close to what an accumulator does without adding all that complexity. Hence the name *HPA without an Accumulator*. That said, feel free to post some pics of plant and roots in mid bloom.


As mentioned. I don't grow what you guys grow so I think it would be a bit boring for you guys 

What's so complex about an accumulator? Not seeing the issue. You end up having more complexity without one from what I am seeing.


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## PetFlora (Feb 14, 2011)

*Pounce:* OK you are starting to piss me off now. Any 'problems' with these girls was not for lack of an Accumulator. For the last time look at the title. Get with it, or leave.


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## pounce (Feb 14, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Pounce:* OK you are starting to piss me off now. Any 'problems' with these girls was not for lack of an Accumulator. For the last time look at the title. Get with it, or leave.


Are you able to articulate the reason for not using an accumulator?

You have a serious attitude problem. Challenging you on not using an accumulator is healthy discussion and on topic. You don't need to lash out at people. I see you do this all over the places. Forums, blogs etc. I'm not taking it personally because I see you do it to anyone...but I don't think you are going to make many friends. Don't you want strangers offering advice even if you don't care for some of it? It wouldn't kill you to be decent.

BTW: My reference to complexity had nothing to do with the outcome of your crop. You made that assumption. I'm speaking of being able to perfectly recreate short mist timings. Your pressure is inconsistent and low. If you regulated the pressure with an accumulator you remove variables making experimenting with timing etc more stable.


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## PetFlora (Feb 14, 2011)

I would PM you but you haven't been here long enough. I asked the moderator to remove your posts and my responses to them. 

Somehow, you keep pushing an accumulator when I made it clear to you that this journal is about *NOT* using an accumulator. The title says it, and I have said it in response to you once already. That you think I am the problem is laughable. Please refrain from posting in *MY* journal. But by all means start your own.


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## pounce (Feb 14, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I would PM you but you haven't been here long enough. I asked the moderator to remove your posts and my responses to them.




No problem. I haven't violated any terms. If they chose to remove them that's their business. I'd call it censorship, but since this isn't a democracy it's their choice.



> Somehow, you keep pushing an accumulator when I made it clear to you that this journal is about *NOT* using an accumulator. The title says it, and I have said it in response to you once already. That you think I am the problem is laughable. Please refrain from posting in *MY* journal. But by all means start your own.


This is a discussion forum. I think you might be confused on where you have posted.You posted so in a way you really can't control what people ask you. My questions and posts are on topic.

Can you articulate the value of running without an Accumulator? For you is it only cost savings or are you communicating to others that you are not using an accumulator on purpose because it adds some value?


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## PetFlora (Feb 14, 2011)

Mine is a *journal with a specific purpose.* As such, it invites questions and dialog specific to the journal's purpose. You fail to understand that. If you want to extol the virtues of using an accumulator, RUI will welcome it, as would I.


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## pounce (Feb 14, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Mine is a *journal with a specific purpose.* As such, it invites questions and dialog specific to the journal's purpose. You fail to understand that. If you want to extol the virtues of using an accumulator, RUI will welcome it, as would I.


Except its not a Journal. You posted in a discussion forum.

*Can you articulate the value of running without an Accumulator? For you is it only cost savings or are you communicating to others that you are not using an accumulator on purpose because it adds some value? *


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## PetFlora (Feb 14, 2011)

*Pounce:* Sure. I am a personal use grower-2-4 plants will last me a year. I had previously grown in soil but decided to up my game. I started with a drip system, but it kept clogging up and used way too many nutes. I switched to 'pond fogger' which I found does not work for growing on a number of levels. I then switched to low pressure and those mist heads kept clogging. I kept searching here and came across Pod Racers thread which is some 5-10 years old. The guys developing the TAG journal were all doing large tables; they dismissed the need for an accumulator, though it probably had to do with not knowing how to dial it in, and that they were preoccupied getting the basics down. Their results inspired me. I was doing a journal TAG 2.0 when Me2 began chiming in with important tips. He noted that my feed time was too long using a 15 minute timer. At this time I was using mist heads that were ok, but eventually found Reptile Basics. 

I tried the timer they sell (DnE?), but it did not go below 8 seconds. My grow improved incredibly. Me2 mentioned that my roots had no lateral roots or root hairs and that I would need a deep cycle timer (he too uses an accumulator). I invested in a Sentinel MDT-1 timer. I did not know at the time that it was not accurate at a one second setting. To date, I am very happy with my results which blow away any other method I tried. 

I never said I couldn't get better results with an accum set up, but seriously, how much more can I yield? No one has answered that question. Let's hypothetically say 15%, even 20%. To me it doesn't justify the investment. hth


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## Bob Smith (Feb 14, 2011)

Petflora, without knowing how much you're actually feeding or the specific micron sizes your pump is producing, it's really impossible for someone to pull a number out of their ass and tell you "how much more" you could be yielding if you actually ran consistent, high pressure aeroponics.

Hell, even if someone had all the variables I mention in the first sentence, they couldn't tell you - it's an art, not a science.

The one thing that no one doubts, however, is that you would yield more (and in a more efficient manner) by using an accumulator and being able to dial in your feed times and droplet sizes.

Pounce, I (and others) think that it's not really HPA without being able to control droplet sizes and feed cycles to a fairly precise degree, but that's certainly debatable, and there's no doubt that a pump hooked up to a timer is less complex (although possibly more prone to failure due to pump short cycling) than a proper accumulator setup - it works for Pet, he's happy with it, no need to beat that dead horse any more.

For people reading this journal, do your own research and you can decide if an accumulator setup is right for your specific setup or not............now, back to the Pet grow show.


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## PetFlora (Feb 15, 2011)

Bob, thanks for chiming in. I am willing to concede whether it's HPA, but it was what it was called when I learned about it. Time marches on.

And I agree, there is no real way to tell how much better true HPA is unless, someone did a side by side. We use the same pump, and similar mist heads. But I am happy with my results, so I don't see the need to further complicate my grow.

I would love to see some pics of roots and plants in mid grow


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## PetFlora (Feb 17, 2011)

It's a bummer, man. My biggest plant turned all hermie on me. It has been removed from the ~ HPA room. 

Although I have nice lateral root development, there is no root hairs. I know this is a function of being too wet. 

Here's my question... what is a rough guide to pause time when my feed time ~ 2 seconds? 

I was running 1:55 as the big plant wilted when I increased it above that. Today, I increased to 2:10 and the leaves perked up (not that they were wilted mind you) but within an hour are now reaching for the sky. Clearly they are happy campers. But what should I push to?


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## PetFlora (Feb 20, 2011)

For the past week, I have been struggling to find the right feed/pause cycle working with 2 seconds and varying the pause from 2:05 all the way up to 2:45. The best response from the plant is 2 on/2:05 pause, but the roots were not developing root hairs. Longer times caused the leafs to droop. I decided to add one second of on time.

I came across a link to my previous grow journal on another site and decided to read it through. It's hilarious to look at all the trial and error mistakes I was making. Lots of people contributed on it, and one in particular offered excellent guidance. On that grow I was using 4 heads/18G tote until Me2 did the math and said I only needed 2 heads. Somehow I completely forgot this and have been trying to make the magic with one head. And I did wind up with root hairs. 

Within one hour of using the 2 head mister the plant top burst to life- photo tomorrow- of course it will take a few days before I can expect any root hairs, but it should happen now.

I still have to dial in the pause time, which is tomorrows project.


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## PetFlora (Feb 21, 2011)

Finally pistils are packing. I thought I had a hermie, turns out it's all male. So my question is can I cross m/f from same seed stock? 


Lonely Lady Budding Nicely

A Close Up


Horny Male has excellent traits. Can I use his pollen on his sister?


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## Bob Smith (Feb 24, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Bob, thanks for chiming in. I am willing to concede whether it's HPA, but it was what it was called when I learned about it. Time marches on.
> 
> And I agree, there is no real way to tell how much better true HPA is unless, someone did a side by side. We use the same pump, and similar mist heads. But I am happy with my results, so I don't see the need to further complicate my grow.
> 
> I would love to see some pics of roots and plants in mid grow


Here's an update from my journal at another site:

Had some issues and kinks to work out with the system at first - really, really would've been totally avoided if I would've used aero clones (roots reach into the column) and not clones rooted in pucks - fucking EZ Clone - had a few dry out and die on me (have been replaced), but it also means that the plants in the 4" wyes (closest to the misters) are much larger than the others because they've been growing since day 1, as opposed to some which just started growing a few days ago.

Current misting times are ~6 seconds every 75 seconds to make sure that all plants are getting sufficient moisture, and that means that the larger plants are getting overwatered (in HP terms) and their roots look more like LP aero roots - as soon as all plants have a sufficient root system, gonna cut that back to 2 or 3 seconds every 2 or 3 minutes.


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## PetFlora (Feb 25, 2011)

Nothing exceptional to report. I am harvesting pollen to use on some lower branches. Also gearing up for my next grow. Seedlings are doing well- roots especially. I will be getting them out of the bubbler today.


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## PetFlora (Mar 12, 2011)

Photo update: Miss Lonely is packing on the pistils, trics and calyxes. Probably 2-3 more weeks. Her roots are brown due to adding Neptune Harvest Seaweed Plant Food (0-0-1). Also, her smallish roots are the result of me being extremely sick for 2 weeks during early veg, and not being able to care for the plants. Most people would have given her up for dead, but HPA is capable of resurrecting the near dead, and here she is. 
 




**


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## PetFlora (Mar 14, 2011)

I know many of you want definitive steps to follow, but there are simply too many variables. The good news is as long as you are in the ball park, your plants will do amazing things. and the closer you get, the greater the rewards. Besides, how much reality programming can you watch?

My starter system uses a cycle timer whose lowest setting is 30 seconds (needs to be replaced to a more expensive timer with much lower on cycles). I am finding that the minimum of 30 seconds in my starter system is way too long _for young developing plants_. Two days ago I was forced to move 4 plants that are 5 weeks old out of my starter system and into my main system because their roots had already reached the bottom of the 15" deep pod. 

Worse, the roots were beginning to take on the appearance of DWC roots- _overcooked slimy spaghetti_. Proper roots are loaded with lateral roots that make them look like fish bones. You won't get them if the pod environment is constantly damp and wet. Roots need some dry time between feedings to process the nutes, as well as to develop the lateral roots.

In the main system I can adjust feed cycle down to 2 seconds. I decided to start with 5 seconds as these were getting 30, and am monitoring how the roots (and plants) respond. So far, so good.

Once the plant is well into flower mode, increasing the feed time 'might' be a good thing. I will soon see. I am hoping it is not the problem that the developing roots had, which forced me to move the 4 plants to my main system, which meant having to move my one flowering female, who is 2-3 weeks from harvest, into my starter system with 30 second minimum feed cycles.

It's been 2 days and she seems no worse for wear, but her roots were well established, so she may be better able to handle the longer feed cycle this late in her life, which is 2-3 weeks more. Time will tell. 

hth 
____


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## rosecitypapa (Mar 17, 2011)

PetFlora, have you noticed anything with plant health and growth with that HHG in your garden?


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## PetFlora (Mar 17, 2011)

I have no idea what HHG is, but plants are doing very well. Pics Saturday. OH, I get it now HHG- holy ... am I right? I keep them in the pods, on my computer, corners of the house, in my car, around my neck, and have gifted tons of towers in a 15 mile radius of where I live. 

People do comment that they really like the head.


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## rosecitypapa (Mar 17, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I have no idea what HHG is, but plants are doing very well. Pics Saturday. OH, I get it now HHG- holy ... am I right? I keep them in the pods, on my computer, corners of the house, in my car, around my neck, and have gifted tons of towers in a 15 mile radius of where I live.
> 
> People do comment that they really like the head.


Yeah, orgonite is interesting. The before/after photos of vegetable gardens under the influence of them got me really fascinated. I've been casting a bunch and also experimenting with plasterite now (using plaster instead of resin and no metal - just beach sand). 
This isn't really a good test since I've changed so many variables, but the buds I'm growing now are the biggest colas I've grown.


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## PetFlora (Mar 18, 2011)

I am afraid that the spirited debate here as to whether my set up is High Pressure has turned many off who would benefit from my method, which was pointed out has more in common with F &D, but my spin moves it into the 21st Century, rivaling THPA results. 

Also my tinkering with feed times has confused many, but you can grow outstanding plants using 5 second feed with 15 minute pauses-24/7. Since DM was formulated for hydro and mj, I highly recommend them. Although I am using the full Gold line, I will likely simplify and switch to ONE + Silica + Zone. Once you have a few grows under your belt you can then experiment with feed time and pH variables. 

Let me simplify why and how...

Where FD uses a medium like gravel or Rock Wool, mine uses no medium beyond the starter cube for seedlings- only a foam inserts for clones. With a couple of simple precautions, gone is the probability for root rot, pythium, etc. 

Instead of plant roots growing in a medium, they hang inside a pod where, instead of being flooded several times a day, they are misted using a high pressure pump and high pressure, low flow mist heads which combine to turn the nutrients into an atomized fog. This fog is much easier for the microbes living on the roots to consume. This allows for several beneficial differences from conventional F&D. Why is this better?

1. Taking a page from what nutritionists know about our need for nutrients, we function better and it is healthier eating 5-10 small meals a day instead of gorging 2-3 times a day.  
2. Roots are misted ~ every 15-30 minutes for ~ 5 second intervals. Times are not cast in stone as other variables must be considered, like age of plant, nute strength, temps, root and pod size.
3. Much lower nute strength fed more often accelerates growth. High ppm nutes are unnecessary and potentially harmful. 
4. Recirculating nutes is a disaster waiting to happen. Some portion of nutes from each feeding has been used by the plant. This means the leftovers no longer have the nute balance that exists in the 'virgin' rez. pH and toxic problems are sure to follow. This can be somewhat compensated by using buffers, but why put a Band-Aid on a shotgun wound? 

Due to lower ppms combined with minimal feed times, nutrient cost is negligible. 

Updated pics tomorrow

hth


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## Atomizer (Mar 18, 2011)

You made a complete u-turn in timings but its not confusing. You`ve switched to a timing range more suited to your delivery method, some may notice how it bears an uncanny resemblence to the timing used for lp aero


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## PetFlora (Mar 18, 2011)

*Atomizer: *I believe it was you who said my method has more in common with F & D. I had no problem considering it as my very first grow 30+ years ago was F & D, using a low pressure low flow pump, a simple 15 minute timer, which was only used in 4 hour blasts, and 1000 watt metal halide. It mos def produced trees.

*Feed Times

*The majority of low pressure system threads and journals seem to be using 15 minute feed times, far from 15 seconds or even 30 seconds 
I am still playing with times, but here's a recent observation. My backup system also has an Aquatec 8800 and same mist heads (sourced from Reptile Basics. BTW, their heads articulate, which I find very helpful in aiming the spray) but instead of a Sentinel MDT-1 timer, it has a lowly IGE, whose lowest setting is 30 seconds. So I was forced to deviate. 

I moved my then 4 week old plants (started in a bubbler) into this IGE timed system. First week the roots were growing laterally as well as deep, and this threw me. However, by the second week the roots stopped developing laterally, began looking more like DWC slimy long spaghetti noodles. 

This came about because I was trying to finish my AF hybrid in the MDT-1 system, but had to swap due to the root issue. Since moving Lonely Lady into the IGE system 4 days ago,trics have_ *quadrupled*_*,* plus I notice some new root development. This makes me think in my *21st Century F & D *system that there might be some benefits in early veg- mid bloom- and late bloom to change feed times. I will experiment on this new grow. 

The learning curve just keeps going. Posting new pics tomorrow


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## Atomizer (Mar 18, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> The majority of low pressure system threads and journals seem to be using 15 minute feed times, far from 15 seconds or even 30 seconds


You missed the point, if the roots are soaked in 15/30 seconds they won`t be any wetter after 15 minutes. Typical lp aero timing is 1min on /4mins off, most pond pumps used in lp aero setups could handle a 15 second on time.
The thread title isnt accurate now with all the changes, (hpa without an accumulator) as your u-turn in cycle timing confirms the standalone pump approach doesnt emulate hp aero. 
You seem to have lost sight of the constant feeding benefit of hp that you mentioned regularly in your earlier posts. Your well defined wet/dry cycle is very different to goals of HP (a short cycle timing delivering a very low volume of mist) to maintain a constant balance in the chamber enabling the roots to feed and breathe at the same time.


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## PetFlora (Mar 19, 2011)

If the mods can/would change the title I would like to change it to *21st Century Flood & Drain*: I have done so on another site. 

I have not lost sight of deep cycle feed times, however, I strongly disagree with your statement that 15 second feeds from high pressure low flow mist heads soaks the roots as much as a low pressure pump watering for 15 minutes. 

Due to *Lonely Girl* not behaving like the AF x that she is, instead she has taken her sweet time to finish just as she did to grow. She was in the main system getting < 5 second feedings. I had no choice with the 4 new plants but to run 30 second feed times as that system has a IGE timer (which I said needs to be replaced) whose lowest on time is 30 seconds. Sadly, the 30 second feed time hugely accelerated their root development, forcing me to move them into the main rig which has a Sentinel timer, that can be set for one second, but is not accurate there. 

So the 4 plants in the main rig have been getting 5 SECOND feedings, but I just reduced to 4 seconds (hardly lpa feed times). Although I wanted to finish *Lonely Girl *with < 5 second feed times, I was forced to move her to the IGE set up. Funny, but since doing so her tric development has _quadrupled and she is sprouting new roots_. MAYBE, just maybe, increasing feed time during mid-late bloom has benefits. Clearly it is helping to fatten her up. 

Today's pics...


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## Atomizer (Mar 20, 2011)

If the roots are wetted to the point water runs off in 15 seconds..they`re not going to get any wetter. The water will simply be running off for a longer period of time. The drying time begins when the misting ends so you will get more cycles from the shorter misting duration.

Deep cycle feed times (as you put it) have nothing to do with constant feeding, the cycle timing simply facilitates the correct mist environment surrounding the roots so they remain at the ideal dampness (for want of a better word) 24/7, they take what they need from the mist when they need it.. nothing is forced on them. They don`t get wet and they dont need time to dry out...constant feeding.
Your interpretation of what constitutes hp aero is a country mile from mine and others. The two methods are not interchangeable, simply adopting the hp parameters that your setup may be capable of doing isn`t enough as you`ve discovered. 
At the end of the day, if your take on it provides a result you`re happy with, thats all that counts.


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## PetFlora (Mar 20, 2011)

*Atomizer*: I think you finally got it into my thick skull. In my last grow I was using < 2 second feed but more like 5 minute pauses, where I now understand the pauses should have been in seconds as well. 

Today, I began feeding the 4 plants @ ~ one second (the Sentinel MDT-1 is not accurate at one second, not sure if it is less or more), but it's the lowest on time available. 

I am now dialing in the pause, currently at 40 seconds (roots are damp, no more droplets hanging on them. 

I was misting with 3 heads. I removed the dual head mister, now only a single 0.92gph head. 

In the end, VPA will not function 100% as a THPA system does, but the results are still pretty amazing., and now that I have a clear understanding of the pause cycle, they should be moreso.

_*Thanks again for the continued info/help! *_


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## Atomizer (Mar 20, 2011)

I highly recommend testing the nozzle so you know exactly how much water its putting out. Its essential to know the real flowrate as it determines the maximum misting duration. 
The misting pulse creates the balance, the pause maintains it. Given perfect coverage and an ideal droplet size range, a single 0.92gph nozzle would be more than sufficient for a 50gal+ chamber.
To test a nozzle, place a plastic bag over the nozzle and collect *all* the liquid it delivers during a 2 second misting pulse from beginning to end. Place an identical plastic bag (bone dry) on a set of digital scales (grams) ideally accurate to 0.1g and hit the "Tare" button. Now weigh the wet bag and convert the weight to a liquid measurement (1g = 1ml). 
Let us know the result.


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## PetFlora (Mar 21, 2011)

First, I have been using ~1 second/40 second pause since 9:30 am yesterday; around 6:30 pm I lowered the pause to 30 seconds, giving them 7 hours of light at that cycle. My pump cycles 24/7. Around 6:30 this morning the plants look great and growing, certainly no worse for wear, having reduced feed cycle from 5 second/12 minute pause. I will reposition the mist head higher up, so more mist is falling onto the hanging portion of the roots, which grew to long too fast when I was forced to start them using a timer with minimum of 30 sec on time. The good news is the roots, which looked like typical DWC slimy spaghetti is filling out with lateral roots.

FYI, the lava rock seems to be working, but I need to get more. Fighting a dead car battery for 3 days has slowed me down. Where do I buy silk screen, just in case the rock doesn't work out? 

One head per 50G? WOW. 

My pods are rectangular, which has the potential for dead zones (which is why I was using more heads), but I can get 3-4 mature plants in one 15G pod, as long as I am not growing anything taller than 3ft. Three reasons for not going bigger is 1) for the massive roots 2) I would have to fabricate a stronger lid to handle the weight of bigger plants 3) total height. A 3ft plant in my system takes up roughly 7ft, not including the light.

I ran the test you suggested, but my digital scale does not read out decimals. The readout for the bag keeps fluctuating between 6 & 7 gms, a second burst = 9gms. Using 1.25gm/second, I get 450 gms per hour pretty close to .92gph. Frankly, I expected a heavier result, since without an accumulator, the pump pressure is starting from ~ zero psi, BUT, the rez is higher than the pump (always has 3-4 gallons of nutes), so the pump (and probably the tubing all the way to the mist head) is fully primed.


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## Atomizer (Mar 21, 2011)

0.92 gph should deliver a little less than 1ml (1g) per second, if you`re seeing 9g from the 1 second timer setting that equates to an effective flowrate of 8.5gph. Obviously, the actual misting pulse will be a lot longer than the 1 second timer setting due to the pressure in the tubing falling off after the pump stops. 
To deliver 1.25ml in one second you would need the timer set to 0.138 seconds, thats a tall order even for an accumulator setup with the solenoid right at the nozzle 
If your timer can`t go any lower than 1 second, then 9ml will be the smallest quantity of liquid you can deliver to the chamber in a single misting (for calculation purposes). Putting the 9ml into a hp aero context, you would need a minimum 265gal chamber to prevent oversaturation during each misting pulse and you`d really struggle to get full coverage in a chamber that size from a single nozzle. The smallest volume of liquid i`ve managed from a single nozzle is 0.2ml, the overall misting pulse was 0.3seconds with the timer set for 0.25seconds.


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## PetFlora (Mar 21, 2011)

Paraphrasing Tina Turner "What's 9gm got to do with it?"

I said I am recovering 1.25gm/ second, not 9.

And as you said a .138 second time is hard to achieve, even with an accumulator. As I see it, I am closer than I have ever been, and certainly as close as I can get without an accumulator. 

Thanks again. Will keep you posted with weekly pics.


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## Mike Young (Mar 22, 2011)

All of this silk screen in the root chamber got me thinkin. Would it be beneficial to place a series of nets in the root zone? I'm thinkin 3 nets, 1/2" - 3/4" spacing (something resembling a tennis racket.) Like a scrog for the roots. In my head this seems like a really good idea. Thoughts?


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## Atomizer (Mar 22, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I ran the test you suggested, but my digital scale does not read out decimals. The readout for the bag keeps fluctuating between 6 & 7 gms, a second burst = 9gms. .


I was using your numbers for calculations. I`m not sure how you get to the 1.25ml/second figure. How long was the misting pulse 1 second or 9 seconds overall from start to finish?




> Using 1.25gm/second, I get 450 gms per hour pretty close to .92gph


450gms per hour is 0.125g per second or 0.12gph.

0.967g or ml per second is 0.92gph
1.25g or ml per second is 1.19gph.


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## PetFlora (Mar 22, 2011)

Mike Young said:


> All of this silk screen in the root chamber got me thinkin. Would it be beneficial to place a series of nets in the root zone? I'm thinkin 3 nets, 1/2" - 3/4" spacing (something resembling a tennis racket.) Like a scrog for the roots. In my head this seems like a really good idea. Thoughts?



Did you see my picture inside the pod? So far, the lava rock is working, but I need to get more to cover the bottom


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## PetFlora (Mar 22, 2011)

Atomizer said:


> I was using your numbers for calculations. I`m not sure how you get to the 1.25ml/second figure. How long was the misting pulse 1 second or 9 seconds overall from start to finish?
> 
> 450gms per hour is 0.125g per second or 0.12gph.
> 
> ...


I see where the way I said 'a' second was confusing. I should have said 'one' second. 1.25 is roughly the number due to no decimal readout. 

*Observation,* a ~ 30 seconds pause uses up a lot of nutes in a day. For large growers, a < 1 second feed would probably save them enough money to pay for the accumulator


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## Atomizer (Mar 22, 2011)

The numbers are correct then, its only 1.25ml if you can get the pulse to last for exactly 1 second. 
To get 9g of liquid in the bag, the physical misting pulse would have been around 7.2seconds even though the cycle timer was set for 1 second. 
To calculate the timing range you need, you have to take the smallest amount of nutes you can deliver to the chamber using the 1 second timer setting..which in your case is 9g or 9ml, aka the real quantity of liquid the roots are seeing from the misting pulse, not a theoretical number on a spec sheet.. 
The effective nozzle flowrate for the calculations becomes 8.45gph, what you collect in the bag test includes everything..pump delay, pressure drop, mist run-on etc. Its the perfect yardstick to base mist timing calculations on, the number is unique to your setup because its what your roots are getting from your nozzle, pump and plumbing layout


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## PetFlora (Mar 22, 2011)

to clarify: the *bag *weighs roughly* 6.5gms*. Including a 2 second burst = ~ 9 gms., or ~ 2.5 gms per 2 seconds/2= 1.25 gps 

Assuming my math is correct...

@ 1.25 gms per second X 60 seconds X 60 minutes = ~ 450 gms. 

1 gram = 0.035273962 ounces

0.035 X 450= 15.75 ounces per hour

15.75/128=0.123 ounces per minute

0.123 X 60= *7.38 GPH if the pump was running constantly, but isn't the 'effective' gph based on length of pause?

What is the 'ideal' 'effective' gph or is that a factor of pod volume, and if so what is that number? 
*


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## Atomizer (Mar 22, 2011)

1ml of water weighs 1g.
6.5g in the bag...divided by 2 seconds is 3.25g per second, so you have 3.25ml/sec *60 *60 = 11,700ml/hr or 11.7 Litres/hr.
11.7 / 3.785 = *3.09 us gph* , this is the real nozzle flowrate based on the amount of liquid one nozzle delivered into the bag in a known period of time (using your unique hardware) 
To get the nozzle to deliver 0.97ml in one second (as per the 0.92gph spec) you`d need to set your timer for 0.3 seconds.


Edit: ok, finally sussed what you mean..your empty bag weighs 6.5g. so the bag + water = 9g...in which case, the nozzle is doing 4.5lph or 1.19 us gph.
If your nozzle is generating the correct droplet size range and providing full coverage, a 0.5second pulse setting on your cycle timer will be about right for an 18gal chamber, a 1 second pulse for a 36gal. 
If 2 seconds is your shortest possible pulse (hardware limitations) you`ll need a 72gal chamber, its doubtful you`ll get the coverage from 1 nozzle.


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## chennemann (Mar 22, 2011)

Atomizer I am running the same nozzle Petflora is, but with an accumaltor. I am using 30 gallon barrel with 3 nozzles pointed inward near the top. Should I have them on for ~.3-.5 seconds? If so how long of period should I have in between mist to start off with? I will be using CO2 at 1500 PPM and ~600 watts per plant. I have been using ~1-2 second range in the past with good results.

Thanks for your help and advise.


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## PetFlora (Mar 22, 2011)

Glad we finally got that cleared up. Sorry for the confusion. I _am_ running one second, but according to Sentinel, it is not 100% accurate at one second; could be a little more, could be a little less. I collected the spray for 2 seconds, as that is what I thought you said to run as a test. 

What do you consider a proper pause time considering the above?


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## Atomizer (Mar 23, 2011)

Timer accuracy is as variable as nozzle specs, the only way to be 100% sure is to video the entire misting pulse and use editting software to see how long the pulse was from mist start to mist stop. That will give you the actual misting pulse time (accurate to 1/100sec) for your particular timer and hardware combo. 
2 seconds is likely to be as short as your pump will allow but bear in mind 2 seconds with your hardware is the maximum allowable pulse for a 72gal chamber. If your chamber is smaller than 72gal it`ll be oversaturated with 2 seconds. You`ll need either a shorter pulse (not possible) lower flow nozzle( may be possible) or fewer nozzles to compensate (not possible as you can`t go less than 1). Thats the reason why control is important with hp aero . 
Assuming 72gal chamber with correct droplet size range and full coverage, the pause timing will be around 80seconds reducing to 40seconds*. You can use a shorter pulse for more variation (always remembering that 2 seconds is the max for your hardware in 72gal), but its easier to leave it alone and vary the pause to maintain the balance. *Environmental variables will have an effect on the timing.

Chen, if the flowrate is somewhere between PF`s 1.19gph and the nozzle spec flowrate of 0.92gph, the pulse time for 3 nozzles in 30gal will be approx 0.27-0.35 seconds. The pause timing as above would be a reasonable starting point.


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## chennemann (Mar 23, 2011)

Would it be better if I went down to 2 nozzles? My concern is the even coverage of the mist.


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## Atomizer (Mar 23, 2011)

2 would be better but not if it compromises coverage as thats worse than having too much flow. With 2 nozzles, the pulse time would increase slightly to 0.4 -0.5 seconds, pause range of 75seconds reducing to 35seconds. 
Its difficult to get the coverage, flow and droplet size range all at the same time but even something as simple as a cycle timer adjustment in the right direction can make a big difference.


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## PetFlora (Mar 26, 2011)

Yes, coverage trumps all. In my 17G rectangular tote, using a single head, the roots in the corners were not getting good mist. Yesterday I replaced it with a dual head and repositioned that head mid way on the long side, aiming one head left the other right.


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## PetFlora (Mar 26, 2011)

Newest Pics 

*Lonely Girl* has come a long way in 3 weeks



*Current Grow* responding well to shortened feed/pause cycle.

The plant in the middle is BC Mango started at the same time as the others, which were sold to me as AFs, but only 1 -10 seeds actually followed AF cycle. It is a male. I moved it outside where it hermied. It was maybe 8 seeds. Will they be more AF like?






Roots are about as good as I can expect considering for the first 2 weeks after germ that they were getting misted at 30 second intervals. Still, there are loads of tiny lateral roots developing in just the last few days.

FYI Lonely Girl's roots have not grown much since putting her in the 30 second feed system 2 weeks ago; makes me think veg stage is the most critical to proper aero root development


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## Atomizer (Mar 26, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Yes, coverage trumps all. In my 17G rectangular tote, using a single head, the roots in the corners were not getting good mist. Yesterday I replaced it with a dual head and repositioned that head mid way on the long side, aiming one head left the other right.


Its a trade off, for 2 reptile nozzles in 17gal, you`ll need a maximum 0.25 second misting. Larger chambers generally need fewer nozzles as the mist patterns tend to overlap and they have more space to fully develop. Run a nozzle outside the chamber and see what the coverage is like compared to inside.


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## PetFlora (Mar 26, 2011)

I have a 30G tote that I plan to convert this weekend. Still trying to figure out best position for max of 6 plants. I have 5 growing now, but no idea if any will be males. I am thinking basically to space them in thirds, but place 4 plants in the corners closer to the middle so mist can wrap around the corners. I will try a single head on the short side: if that doesn't work then a dual head mid way on the long side. This is eazy peezy to do with the heads I source from Reptile Basics

hth


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## PetFlora (Mar 27, 2011)

I think I heard my plants say_ 'Thank You"_ after moving them into the 30G pod. I have to use a dual head; even with it, if I don't have them properly aimed left and right, one of the plants wilts. 

Also, it is 89 degrees here today. The room they are in is open beam ceiling- no attic or insulation to reflect the heat. When I run the ac it doesn't counter the heat. This means the inside of the pod gets hot. I drilled a hole on the short side in case I decided to place the dual head there. The hole is near the recirculating fan, so I repositioned the fan to blow some air into the pod, but realized I needed to drill some holes in the opposite side (up high) for the heat/humidity to escape. 

Pausing for 35-40 seconds. Is that good for a 30G pod? Is there a formula for pause vs volume? 

hth


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## Atomizer (Mar 28, 2011)

With 2 of your nozzles you`d need no more than 0.4 seconds of mist for 30gals. If you can only manage 1 second you`ll be overmisting (wet/dry cycles). The best compromise there is to use a pause timing range of 3mins reducing to 1.5mins. 
If your droplet size is also too large then all bets are off as you won`t be meeting any of the criteria needed for hp aero.


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## PetFlora (Mar 28, 2011)

I kind of got lost in your wet/dry timing explanation. Are you saying...

1 second wet > 1.5 minute dry
2 second wet > 3.0 minute dry

If yes, are these times based on a 30G pod?

Also, wouldn't ambient temps (like 90 degrees yesterday) and/or lamp heat beating down on the surface of the pod play a role in length of dry period?


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## Atomizer (Mar 28, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I kind of got lost in your wet/dry timing explanation. Are you saying...
> 
> 1 second wet > 1.5 minute dry
> 2 second wet > 3.0 minute dry
> ...


If the misting is too long they will get wet. The flowrate and number of nozzles dictates the maximum misting duration for the chamber size. The pause duration controls the amount of liquid going through the chamber per day in bitesize chunks. During early growth you don`t need as much throughput as in late flower. If your ambient is 90F you need better environmental control and/or chamber insulation. The suggested timings are a compromise brought about by the hardware limitations, if you could achieve the 0.4second misting the pause timing range would be shorter.


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## PetFlora (Mar 28, 2011)

I am having difficulty keeping all 4 plants wet in the 30G pod, even with dual heads and 2 second wet cycles. Still working at adjusting the left head to reach the plant in the far left corner, which has the least amount of root mass to collect nutes and feed the plant.

The 30 second wet times caused long roots to develop in less than 2 weeks, instead of a nice ball of roots up high close to the plants. While the vertical roots have some lateral roots and hairs, the majority of the lateral roots are close to and on the bottom. It's a long way for nutes to climb to feed the plant.

Hopefully this one will rebound, or be a male so I can pull it. 

hth


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## PetFlora (Mar 29, 2011)

*Eureka- Root Hairs! **

A* is right again. 2 days after moving plants from 17G pod to 30G pod I am seeing root hairs developing on the vertical roots. The problem was a combination of a pod too small and a mist cycle too long (even at one second): doubling the volume did the trick.

*W/D* is 1sec/55 seconds. Due to the high ambient room temp I do have some condensation on the sides. I will look into wrapping pod with insulating foam, or wrapping with some windscreen reflectors that I have on hand

hth


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## Atomizer (Mar 29, 2011)

If you can increase the chamber volume to 70gal and maintain full coverage with the 2 nozzles and your current pulse timing you`ll be about there


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## PetFlora (Mar 30, 2011)

*Atomizer: *As I was still having coverage issues (including mist hang time), I went back and read where you suggested the pump might be losing pressure, which could make for larger droplets. Thinking about that in general, it occurred to me to check the screens in the heads; both were slightly clogged. Then I checked my inline 200 mesh filter, it too had some precip. My rez is clean so this was probably a carry over from a week or so ago, when I dumped and cleaned it, but overlooked cleaning the filters. Now I may be able to replace the dual head with a single head. I say _may_ as I think I would need an accumulator to get the initial push through a single head to optimally fill the 30G pod. Stay tuned

70G huh? Now that would be a HUGE pod.


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## PetFlora (Apr 21, 2011)

I cannot find the thread where this was posted. Anybody know who wrote this? I would like to communicate with him

"_There are mainly two types that are based on former and newer scientific results. _ 
_1. about 180 N versus 220 P, is the more recommended formula for a hot, tropical or not fully climate controlled and rather warm indoor climate (high light heat output). _

_2. 220 N versus 180K (could vary but for the sake of simplicity, I'll just reverse it, as it is damn close) for a cooler climate or if you prefer, growing conditions clearly under 20-25° C._"


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## Atomizer (Apr 21, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I cannot find the thread where this was posted. Anybody know who wrote this? I would like to communicate with him
> 
> "_There are mainly two types that are based on former and newer scientific results. _
> _1. about 180 N versus 220 P, is the more recommended formula for a hot, tropical or not fully climate controlled and rather warm indoor climate (high light heat output). _


220 P will play havoc with your Calcium, Mag, Iron and Zinc with that amount in the mix


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## PetFlora (Jun 25, 2011)

Hurray. I found a better PVC Coupler at Lowes. This one has much shorter threads AND a locking ring. The shorter threads will help the mist to reach the starter cube. The locking ring will help keep the plant from listing/falling. 

Part # 25018. Schedule 40 called a Slip Joint Nut and Washer 1 1/2". Comes in a baggie, so you might need to ask. $2.66 each set



*
PVC CAUTION article:*
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/06/24/europe-bans-penis-shrinking-chemical-america-does-not.aspx


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## Trichy Bastard (Jun 29, 2011)

Ok, I finally found where your thread is... Subbed... and just read from beginning to end.  Have you had any good results with the new couplers?


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## PetFlora (Jun 29, 2011)

I am doing a small grow, Only one coupler in use on a tiny seedling that is struggling to survive due to getting too much fan air blowing on it too soon.


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## Trichy Bastard (Jun 29, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I am doing a small grow, Only one coupler in use on a tiny seedling that is struggling to survive due to getting too much fan air blowing on it too soon.


oh man.. got my fingers crossed...


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## PetFlora (Jun 29, 2011)

I actually have 3 young uns, about 2" tall, whose roots are finally beginning to extend past the old longer couplers. The one struggling is a fourth seedling that I started after these 3, but prior to finding the short couplers. Since moving it to the shorter coupler the bottom has remained moist- a very good sign for future seedlings- but it may not survive the fact that it wasn't getting sufficient moisture from the beginning.


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## PetFlora (Jul 18, 2011)

*Natural Remedy (Cheap too)

Came across urls to Duster and Human Grade DE for humans, pets and our gardens http://www.amazon.com/All-Stop-M345-Pistol-Duster/dp/B002SW52CE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&m=A2EPFO332ATZGH&s=generic&qid= 1311008945&sr=1-2

Amazing health info here: http://www.earthworkshealth.com/
*


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## Trichy Bastard (Jul 18, 2011)

Cool Petflora I never knew it was being used for consumption and the possible benefits it had. One thing worth mentioning- if you use it, don't unhale the dust- it can irritate the lungs like asbestos... I also read on wikipedia it could be used as a growing medium in hydroponics, but have no idea how you'd do that with a powder, or maybe they mean more like gravel sized pieces that aren't pulverized into dust?


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

I haven't been updating this thread as there are a couple people ramping up for an accum grow here, and that is where the interest seems to be. I have a journal on another site.


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## lordjin (Sep 21, 2011)

Hi. Your roots look great. Mine don't look that different from yours. I've heard that the mass of 'thin fishbone' type roots are the tell-tale signs of true aeroponics roots. My roots are just that...a mass of thin, fishbone roots...And when I stop using the notoriously brown GH, my roots will look even more like yours.

I use the cheap low pressure method, but there is 45 liters a minute of oxygen in my water droplets, though they be over 50 micron in size.


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

In that old photo, mine are not any better than yours. 

True hpa roots, look like fluffy cotton candy. Imagine the same volume of roots with zillions of feeding sites ready to accept the atomized high pressure mist using deep time release cycles. That's what I am striving for, and it has been a journey, but I am on the cusp of having cotton candy roots. I have a journal elsewhere


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## lordjin (Sep 21, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> In that old photo, mine are not any better than yours.
> 
> True hpa roots, look like fluffy cotton candy. Imagine the same volume of roots with zillions of feeding sites ready to accept the atomized high pressure mist using deep time release cycles. That's what I am striving for, and it has been a journey, but I am on the cusp of having cotton candy roots. I have a journal elsewhere


I see. Hope you reach your goal.

What is your opinion regarding the impact of hp on a grow. Say I switched from what I'm doing now and invested in hp heads, an hp pump, and accum, with everything else the same. Do you think it would impact my grow significantly enough to warrant the added expense and maintenance?


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

There is no way I could know what is best for YOU. I can tell you that I went from lpa to quasi hpa _while_ my lpa grown plant was seemingly ready to harvest, but within 48 hours of adding high pressure heads and pump, I saw new fox tails were shooting all over, and new roots of course, which were feeding the new buds. And that was using a 15 minute timer- too long and too wet, which prevented cotton candy (CC), but I knew I was onto something special. 

After that grow I bought a Sentinel MDT-1 timer, only to later find out it is not accurate at one second, and does not cycle below that. The TRUE HPA guys use an accumulator, solenoids, etc and run < 0.5 second wet cycles, followed by < 30 second dry cycles. This combination basically turns the root system into a 24/7 pig out, as the roots never get too wet/dry (full/hungry), consequently they eat all the time. 

Imagine what that can do for grow and yield- _explosive_. BUT, I am attempt to get close to their results without the accum. They say I'm crazy (in so many words), but I am using almost everything they use sans the accum, solenoids, and < one second timer. My thought is if I can get close to their results the whole experience/learning curve is worth it. It wasn't wasy getting to where I am now, but I have a journal elsewhere documenting step-by-step in case you are interested


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## lordjin (Sep 21, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> There is no way I could know what is best for YOU. I can tell you that I went from lpa to quasi hpa _while_ my lpa grown plant was seemingly ready to harvest, but within 48 hours of adding high pressure heads and pump, I saw new fox tails were shooting all over, and new roots of course, which were feeding the new buds. And that was using a 15 minute timer- too long and too wet, which prevented cotton candy (CC), but I knew I was onto something special.
> 
> After that grow I bought a Sentinel MDT-1 timer, only to later find out it is not accurate at one second, and does not cycle below that. The TRUE HPA guys use an accumulator, solenoids, etc and run < 0.5 second wet cycles, followed by < 30 second dry cycles. This combination basically turns the root system into a 24/7 pig out, as the roots never get too wet/dry (full/hungry), consequently they eat all the time.
> 
> Imagine what that can do for grow and yield- _explosive_. BUT, I am attempt to get close to their results without the accum. They say I'm crazy (in so many words), but I am using almost everything they use sans the accum, solenoids, and < one second timer. My thought is if I can get close to their results the whole experience/learning curve is worth it. It wasn't wasy getting to where I am now, but I have a journal elsewhere documenting step-by-step in case you are interested


I'm interested. And although you don't know the details of my setup, I think, based upon your response, if done correctly, the answer to my question would be a resounding yes.

I've been doing a bit of research into that technology simply to broaden my horizons. It really does sound like the perfect balance of dry and wet, but not fully wet, is taking the base concept of hydro growing to the next level. 

Thanks for being understanding and not shitting on my root picture. I think my roots exhibit some of the characteristics of true aero, if not being the actual cotton candy, but also understand that they are not quite there. 

I went as far as checking out some manufacturer sites of the hp related gear... Looked like a space-age price tag. But I'm thinking all that stuff wouldn't exist just for the hell of it.


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

I didn't shit on your root pic because I have had the same roots. As you know yield is pretty good via those roots, BUT, FPE, mj loves having CC roots, and shows that love in bigger badder buds- assuming you provide the right amount of light and food. No need to add PK boosters either, unless your nutrient is deficient. Also, you use very small amounts of nutes, so you can use better nutes. I am very happy with DM Gold, but their customer service SUCKS. 

I bought the hp hardware from Reptile Basics: pump, fittings, tubing, mist heads (singles and doubles). The whole set up including Sentinel timer < $400. I tried to do it peace meal, thinking I could get by with a timer whose minimum on cycle is ~ 30 seconds, trust me, you have to get below 4 seconds to have a shot. Sentinel also makes a DT-1, which is not as fancy but costs a lot less. I do not think RB sells Sentinel, and they seem to be on back order a lot. Try www.cheaphydroponics.com


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## lordjin (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks. 400.00 is nothing to sneeze at, but well within reason too.

I'll have to do a bit more studying. The less than 30 second timer seems important.


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## foresakenlion (Sep 28, 2011)

I'm so lost, one of you fine aero people had a method of connecting the quick connects, via a tee to the 1/8" npt on the cloudtops, I've decided to use them and here I am zig zagging all over the internet trying to find whoever mentioned they had a connection method, pray for me


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## pirateb0b (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks for the read PetFlora, do you (or anyone else) think an inline check valve with a cracking pressure of 100psi (or your desired pressure) before the nozzles would help you achieve your goal of mimicking HPA results with an accumulator? Are there any implications on safety by doing this?


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