# Even Paris Hilton KNOWS Eckhart Tolle



## Garden Knowm (May 24, 2007)

Tolle is LOVE


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## FlipAPenny (May 24, 2007)

She is on a spiritual quest right now. I am getting tired though of hearing about every move she makes. I could give a rats ass about her because she could give the same to me.

I would rather go to Paris than to meet Paris. 

That's all I have to say about that.


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## Garden Knowm (May 24, 2007)

you read that somewhere? that she is on a spiritual quest?

iloveyou


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## FlipAPenny (May 24, 2007)

No, I heard it on the E network. I know you're not supposed believe everything you hear but I was convincedl.


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## test_pilot (May 24, 2007)

Shes Sure Doing A Hard Core Nipple Stand......nice


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## FlipAPenny (May 24, 2007)

Those aren't tits! My man boobs are bigger than those!


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## Garden Knowm (May 24, 2007)

ahahahahahah

welll, i hope she comes to our spirituality section at rollitup... she could learn a lot.. maybe even find god.. lol

ahahahahahahahhahahaha

btw - i like the broad... she's got guts.. I'm glad I am not her... but she handles her shit pretty well for all the PUBLICITY she gets.. must be a bitch being her....


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## skunkushybrid (May 25, 2007)

Isn't she going to jail?

Isn't it odd that she just happens to get snapped with these two books in her hand... a little too contrived for my liking.

People are soooo full of shit. So full of it they even lie to themselves. Convince themselves of truths that don't exist.

I try and be as honest as I can, it's difficult as I have no idea what honesty really is.


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## FlipAPenny (May 25, 2007)

I have no sympathy for her. She has more money than most and she abuses the system with her celebrity status. I expect more from people in the lime light and people that have money like she does. 

That's all I have to say about that.


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## Garden Knowm (May 25, 2007)

I have never considered money a blessing.... or a reason not to sympathize with somebody.... it is not easy being rich...


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## FlipAPenny (May 25, 2007)

Garden Knowm said:


> I have never considered money a blessing.... or a reason not to sympathize with somebody.... it is not easy being rich...


I'm in the money business so I understand what you are saying. I have always lived my life by the saying "To much is given much is required". 

Here's another phrase I like: "Don't be a dick!". You're not being a dick but I still like the phrase.

-Much Love!


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## FlipAPenny (May 25, 2007)

Garden Knowm said:


> lol....


This is smiley face overload but I like it.


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## Garden Knowm (May 25, 2007)

i get like that when I amgiddy. and your sense of humor was contagious and I got giddy.. and went smiley face crazy

killing people is BAD... we can only see what we are... you see a terrorist, you are a terrorist.. this is truth..

iloveyou

There are no demons here.. no evil. no good... no bad... no greatness.... it is just humans...

bye a hungry man a sandwhich.. and when you hand it to him.. give him your love first... and the sandwhich second...

iloveyou


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## FlipAPenny (May 25, 2007)

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for life.

I would teach that hungry man how to make a sandwich to he can eat for life...


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## Garden Knowm (May 25, 2007)

Give a man attention, true support, love, and watch it flourish... be an inspiration to one man and watch it effect the entire cosmos... be an example to those all around YOU by loving all man kind... be YOURSELF.. what you want the world to be.. and it shall be... 

And when he came to earth he saw those who were helping and caring for their borthers and sisters and the animals... and he saw those who treatd the GREAT creator momma earth with great respect and appreciation... and to those were given eagle scout medals.. and accepted into the KIndgom of DOG... you catch my drift.... iloveyou


ONly when you treat all men with LOVE.... can you be sure that you found YOURSELF!!! -


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## fdd2blk (May 25, 2007)

i'm kind to everyone and they walk all over me.


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## Garden Knowm (May 25, 2007)

maybe it is the kick me sticker on your back


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## Garden Knowm (May 25, 2007)

plus.. I don't walk over you.. I think you are supper!!!! i mean super... hehehe


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## fdd2blk (May 25, 2007)

true. thank you. i am so giving and make it look so easy to do people don't really understand how hard i work to be the way i am. i am at peace with myself because i am pleased with the effort i put forth. people just don't get it.


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## FlipAPenny (May 26, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i'm kind to everyone and they walk all over me.


Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. 

I'm the kind of person that loves and likes things to be  full but I will kick your ass if you mess with my friends and family.

-Much love and Peace with a  on the side.


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## test_pilot (May 26, 2007)

FlipAPenny said:


> Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for life.
> 
> I would teach that hungry man how to make a sandwich to he can eat for life...


once youve taught him how to fish he'll start selling the fish.cant get away from greedy people


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## HighPhi (May 26, 2007)

FlipAPenny said:


> She is on a spiritual quest right now. I am getting tired though of hearing about every move she makes. I could give a rats ass about her because she could give the same to me.
> 
> I would rather go to Paris than to meet Paris.
> 
> That's all I have to say about that.


couldnt have said it better flip.


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## skunkushybrid (May 27, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i'm kind to everyone and they walk all over me.


Write down their names fdd'... I'm organising a possey. Anyone got any guns?


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## th3bigbad (May 27, 2007)

*flexes arms* i got your guns right here,,,grrrrr

the true measure of a man is not how much he loved but how much he was loved,,,, rrr sumthin in that ballpark


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## johnny1234 (May 27, 2007)

I think if Paris read and understood Eckhart Tolle she would not be as she is now. Tolle is not a fad or some sort of 'cool' spiritual enlitenment he is.....

thankyou


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## krime13 (May 28, 2007)

Feed man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach him how to fish and he will spend the rest of his life fishing and drinking beer all day long...


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## Garden Knowm (Jun 7, 2007)

johnny1234 said:


> . Tolle is not a fad or some sort of 'cool' spiritual enlitenment he is.....
> 
> thankyou


       


lovelovelovelove


now tiime for frisbee


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 10, 2007)

Hey GK, do you agree with everything Tolle preaches, or is it just parts of?

Johnny12' you might like to answer this too.


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## Garden Knowm (Jun 10, 2007)

Ummm.. can you please rephrase the question...

I don't think he preaches nor do I know everything that he has said...



ummm... I have not heard him say anything that I thought was NOT correct...

I have heard him make comments that I did not *AGREE* with..... but nor did I *DISAGREE* with his those comments...

often I hear things that I just don't form any opinion about.... kinda like listening to birds....

and other times, I hear things that interest me BUT at the time I have no opinion BUT I am not willing to let it go.. so I just hang it up in the "I don't know department of my brain" this actually where most of my shit goes!!!

iloveyou...


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## johnny1234 (Jun 11, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Hey GK, do you agree with everything Tolle preaches, or is it just parts of?
> 
> Johnny12' you might like to answer this too.


i reckon i do agree with everything he says. he's good because he constantly just points towards this idea of 'stillness' with everything he says. and everything just seems to fit and make sence. however, i think that its fuckin hard to be able to live 'in the now' all the time because the mind always wants to control everything.

but yeh, i reckon Tolle has got it sussed. all my mates reckon its all load of shit but hey. 
peace


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## Garden Knowm (Jun 11, 2007)

johnny1234 said:


> but yeh, i reckon Tolle has got it sussed. all my mates reckon its all load of shit but hey.
> peace



LOL.... many people say... that tolle is full of shit.. or that he is just talking in circles, or what's the point....


The "PROBLEM" with Tolle is, you need at least a spark of presence before you can start to SURRENDER and actually hear what he is saying..

I have noticed that people are so used to looking for the "point" (what's in it for THEM) that they can't hear the message...

The GREAT thing about Tolle is that you can actually get a spark of awakening from HIS voice without having a fooking clue what he is saying...

iloveyou


if you enjoy tolle you should also check out this cat named Krishnamurti...


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## 4theist20 (Jun 11, 2007)

> The "PROBLEM" with Tolle is, you need at least a spark of presence before you can start to SURRENDER and actually hear what he is saying..


This is the same argument Christians use to defend their teachings. First ACCEPT Jesus... Then he will make sense to you. LOL. Please.. In my world if you want someone to believe something you convince them of it. You don't ask them to suspend judgement indefinitly.

Oh yeah, and we can't really live in 'The Now.' All that we are able to experience is the past. NEVER the present.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 11, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> This is the same argument Christians use to defend their teachings. First ACCEPT Jesus... Then he will make sense to you. LOL. Please.. In my world if you want someone to believe something you convince them of it. You don't ask them to suspend judgement indefinitly.
> 
> Oh yeah, and we can't really live in 'The Now.' All that we are able to experience is the past. NEVER the present.





4theist20 said:


> This is the same argument Christians use to defend their teachings. First ACCEPT Jesus... Then he will make sense to you. LOL. Please.. In my world if you want someone to believe something you convince them of it. You don't ask them to suspend judgement indefinitly.
> 
> Oh yeah, and we can't really live in 'The Now.' All that we are able to experience is the past. NEVER the present.



its not about accepting Tolles idea first its just about getting that glimps of realisation, GK has hit he nail on the head, read what he is saying a bit closer or get into some Tolle if ur interested. 

all that we are able to experience is the past? i dont think i have ever experienced the past? i have thought about he past, worried about the past, longed for the past but never experienced it. same with the future. all that really truly exists is now. past and future are only as important as we make them.
peace out


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## the widowman (Jun 11, 2007)

at least paris likes to blaze a joint.(a nice big fat one )


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## 4theist20 (Jun 12, 2007)

> all that we are able to experience is the past? i dont think i have ever experienced the past? i have thought about he past, worried about the past, longed for the past but never experienced it.


 - Johnny

Well, think about it this way. When you look up into the night's sky and see the stars burning, you're actually seeing those stars as they were 100 - 10,000 years ago. If you look at the sun you're seeing it as it was about 8 minutes ago, the moon, about 1 - 2 seconds ago. If you're having a conversation with a person across a table you're seeing them as they were ten billionths of a second ago. Maybe the past is just as real as the present.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 12, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> - Johnny
> 
> Well, think about it this way. When you look up into the night's sky and see the stars burning, you're actually seeing those stars as they were 100 - 10,000 years ago. If you look at the sun you're seeing it as it was about 8 minutes ago, the moon, about 1 - 2 seconds ago. If you're having a conversation with a person across a table you're seeing them as they were ten billionths of a second ago. Maybe the past is just as real as the present.


that is true. when u look at a star you're seeing a version of the star that happened a time ago due to the distances in space. but that is not the point. the point is this; when you are looking it at, you're seeing it at that exact time that you see it, whether it occurred earlier or not, the occurrance of you seeing it only happens in the present moment. and by directing your mind to that moment which is "the now" you awaken. 

you're saying things take a while to occur, therefore the past is an important factor of the present. Tolle does not disagree with this; he just believes that allowing the mind to be in the present moment and not stuck in thoughts of past and future gives rise to a feeling of enlightenment. a feeling that the mind cannot grasp because it is beyond the mind. that part u have to feel for yourself by essentially 'clearing the mind' of thought.

as soon as you are thinking "this is stupid and makes no sense" you are not in "the now" because your mind has taken over. after years of conditioning or whatever, the mind is obsessed with trying to control everything and make sense of everything. according to your mind; without your past you are 'nobody' and without your future, you have no way of feeling excited about anything (the mind cannot stand this! and therefore projects into the past and future 24-7). to observe, not judge the present moment is to depart your true "self" from your mind. its something u cannot make happen but must allow it to happen. and when it happens u will know what im on about

i hope i answered ur question
peace out.


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## Garden Knowm (Jun 12, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> This is the same argument Christians use to defend their teachings. First ACCEPT Jesus... Then he will make sense to you. LOL. Please.. In my world if you want someone to believe something you convince them of it. You don't ask them to suspend judgement indefinitly.
> 
> Oh yeah, and we can't really live in 'The Now.' All that we are able to experience is the past. NEVER the present.



Nobody is asking you to accept tolle... acepting tolle will not have him make sense to you.. LOL.... 

If it takes convincing then it is not true....


No matter what, you live in the now... EVEN your thoughts are taking place now... and it appears that some people whish to argue there limitations of being able to live in the now... and we all know.. that if you BELIEVE you shall receive.. arugue your limitations and they are YOURS!!

ilovyou


If you wish to experiment.. just try stayting still.. perfectly still..and try to watch your thoughts.... DOnt move, dont itch... just watch your breath and watch your thoughts.... try doing this for 5 minutes, 3 times a day...

It won't take you more than 3 seesions to realize that you are a sleeping drone that can't stand still and is distracted by more than 80,000 automatc thoughts a day.... 

But with practice.. you can become awake.. youc an change you 50 watt ulb into a 1 billion watt bulb.... You can free yourself from your enslavement..

iloveyou

but 99% of man will stay asleep... And they will fight to the death to stay in this pathetic state... LOL


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 12, 2007)

Sounds like buddhism to me. This is how I've always imagined buddhists to be. I used to be a fan of all the 70's kung fu films... _a warrior must free his mind of all thought_

From what you've said about him I feel that he hasn't got anything new to tell me. Anyone that has practiced stillness can tell you that it does feel good. Although if you do it in the search for enlightenment then you will be let down.

The only way to truly meditate is to live within death, or somehow take yourself from your body. You cannot do it, and if you believe you can then this is you tricking yourself into this belief.

At what point do you REALISE you are not thinking?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 12, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> At what point do you REALISE you are not thinking?


funny, thats a trick question right? i guess u realize ur not thinking when u dont realize anything. i kno im there when i feel completely connected to the external world and i let go of the abilities of consciously projecting into the future or reflecting on the past.

tolle doesnt enlighten many folks, but allows them to enlighten themselves. most ppl are so caught up in bullshit, everything they do is counterproductive in the enlightenment process.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 12, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> At what point do you REALISE you are not thinking?


i think you are perhaps looking in the wrong place. because you don't realise. the mind plays no part in it, the mind cannot grasp it because it has nothing to do with the mind. it is the 'self' or the 'being' behind the thinking. me trying to explain it all now is an example of how the mind always wants to control, understand and explain everything.

yeh it is quite similiar to buddhism, but i think buddhism is a sort of religion which makes western society wont to put it down and every1 says things like "to be a buddhist you gotta eat spinach all day and you gotta meditate 24-7" Tolle does'nt care for any of that, he just points towards this stillness in a number of different aspects. he even states himself that 'living in the now' is nothing new. but its the way he expresses it that works. for me anyway.

peace


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 12, 2007)

While we are alive the mind is constantly working. We may fool ourselves into believing we are not thinking but OURSELVES will always have thought.

Yes, in a way it was a trick question... although it makes perfect sense. The very thought that we have entered some type of none-thought state is of course thought in itself.

Maybe meditation gets to the essence of thought, the rawness of it. So that we are again at our most basic. Like a new born baby. This would be impossible as our minds have grown and learned too much.

When we read about meditation we LEARN that it frees us of the need to think. Yet this is not the case, the truth is that it places you on a level of LESSER thought.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 12, 2007)

i would assume u wouldnt have the gall to preach something u havent experienced so im going to assume u simply havent reached what we are talking about. the way my mind works, something is or isnt, no in-between involved. i dont have the ability to see the grey area so when u say that i am mistakenly experiencing a lesser thought rather than the absence of, i find it rather questionable.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 13, 2007)

No, I have reached it... but it is a lie.

I will always be MYSELF. I may be able to hide from ME, pretend that I am not there... but there, I will always BE.

MYSELF ME BE.

All WE can do is try and change the way we behave in the world. try and be better people. Sometimes you need to clear your head of most thoughts, but to imagine you are clearing your mind of all thought is a thought in itself.

My point is only that, although meditation is an excellent way to keep your mind healthy, it is a trick when we believe we have achieved none-thought. A trick of our own minds.

The mind/psyche is in 2 parts. The conscious that sleeps, and the subconscious that does not. We are both of these minds at the same time, yet we use our subconscious constantly. When you talk of meditating while you're awake you're talking of becoming more in tune with your subconscious mind. Yet your subconscious mind is a myriad of thought, more so than the conscious mind. This is where thoughts have yet to develop, or mature to the point they actually become thoughts, a confusing place that meditation helps calm.

Also we could never let go of our conscious minds, the place where thoughts are realised. We need it to move our bodies, to realise the thoughts that mature in our subconscious. 

Meditation is merely a trick. You tell yourself that meditation is going to work a certain way, and it does.

Most of the time the way we're feeling is down to chemicals being released from neurotransmitters in the brain. This is why some people get angry quicker than others... you ever felt that feeling when you're really angry, like your whole body and mind are being flooded with something? The mind has opened the valve.

The future for us should be to somehow learn how to control these transmitters. Imagine being able to give yourself an XTC dose just by controlling these transmitters... The power is within us somewhere.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 13, 2007)

The absence of thought is death.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 13, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Meditation is merely a trick. You tell yourself that meditation is going to work a certain way, and it does.


bull. i didnt even kno what i was doing first time around. i just got sick of all the harmful stuff flying thru my head and i wanted to see if i could make it stop. i pretty much thought meditation was cross-legged levitation back then. i laid down and felt the pressure of my body on my bed or the ground. thats all it was, i gave up thinking about shit.

if u want to argue the idea of completely stopping cerebral activity ur missing the point; the mind and the brain are two separate things entirely. and while i may have mislead u by saying "thought" i really have only meant to say "inner monologue" as in all these fucking voices in my head. from what i understand everybody hears voices, just some people dont notice them as much.

when i meditate i stop talking to myself and i wait for all the noise in my head to stop. isnt that what everybody else does? how is that an illusion?


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## johnny1234 (Jun 13, 2007)

I understand exactly what you are saying skunkushy


Essentially, no one can convince you that the mind is secondary to &#8216;you&#8217; because you are trying to understand it on the level of mind. I must stress it is beyond mind. So how can I prove that its not all a hoax? Well basically, I can&#8217;t, just like you can&#8217;t truly prove that it is. Just like Sartre can&#8217;t prove that we are all radically free and fraud that we wana shag our mums.

But I&#8217;ll still try to clear up any doubts u may have.
To truly reach enlightenment. You are not just killing all thoughts so that there is a void. You are observing your thoughts. But how can u observe your thoughts? Who is doing the observing? You! the true sense of you. 

Ur statement &#8216;meditation is a trick&#8217; is perfectly valid in the case of someone who sits there, concentrates on their breath for a while and ends up feeling relaxed and peaceful or even joyful. But, when one is truly and deeply detached from their mind, they are enlightened, and the feeling is INFINITELY deeper, more real and beyond the feeling of endorphins pumping into your blood.

There have also been cases where temporary enlightenment has been reached without intention. This happens when immense losses occur. For example, there was a case where a mother&#8217;s child died. At the point of death, the mother felt this immense, unexplainable feeling of life, joy, awakeness etc. and then her mind kicked back in and she was deeply sad. This enlightenment has occurred because there has been a void created in her life. Something which was there, and part of her mind, was suddenly gone.

Now u can ignore all this and say that meditating is all just a trick and that the mother had some sort of thing going on with the chemicals in her brain. But, in my opinion; if u had had a mere GLIMPSE of there feeling i'm talking about, you may be more inclined to agree with we we talking about. or at least realize it as a possibility.

remember, your mind hates hearing any of this because, if it were true, it would mean that everything you take to be your self is secondary to this true 'you'.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 13, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> The absence of thought is death.


perhaps the absence of thought is life in its true form? 
people think that 'life' is the opposite of 'death' but really 'birth' is the opposite of 'death'. life is eternal, and has no opposite. 

but that's taking it all one step further. i don't think that statement would be able to cleared up until we experience death.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 13, 2007)

haha, to think all this ^^^^ started with a picture of paris hilton holding a book


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## Garden Knowm (Jun 13, 2007)

Wow johnny! You should check out this book, autobiography of a yogi, it will probably become your best friend...

Btw- very nice post... Great yo wake up first thing in the morning and see something so beautiful.

Lovelovelove


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 13, 2007)

preoQpydDlusion said:


> if u want to argue the idea of completely stopping cerebral activity ur missing the point; the mind and the brain are two separate things entirely. and while i may have mislead u by saying "thought" i really have only meant to say "inner monologue" as in all these fucking voices in my head. from what i understand everybody hears voices, just some people dont notice them as much.


No, as far as I'm aware I do not hear voices. I did once, back when i was on stimulants for long periods at a time. Psychosis. The voices are dangerous, I have a friend that not only hears the voices in his head but also hears them on the radio and tv too. He believes he is Jesus Christ, that the world revolves around him. This is his world not ours.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 13, 2007)

thanks Gk, ill check it out at the library.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 17, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> No, as far as I'm aware I do not hear voices. I did once, back when i was on stimulants for long periods at a time. Psychosis. The voices are dangerous, I have a friend that not only hears the voices in his head but also hears them on the radio and tv too. He believes he is Jesus Christ, that the world revolves around him. This is his world not ours.


alright skunky, how about some words from the man himself:

How easy it is for people to become trapped in their conceptual prisons.

The human mind, in its desire to know, understand, and control, mistakes its opinions and viewpoints for the truth. It says: this is how it is. You have to be larger than thought to realize that however you interpret "your life" or someone else's life or behavior, however you judge any situation, it is no more than a view point, one of many possible perspectives. It is no more that a bundle of thoughts. But reality is one unified whole, in which all things are interwoven, were nothing exists in and by itself. Thinking fragments reality - it cuts it up into conceptual bits and pieces.

The thinking mind is a useful and powerful tool, but it is also very limiting when it takes over your life completely, when you don't realize that it is only a small aspect of the consciousness that you are. - Eckhart Tolle


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 18, 2007)

The thinking mind is unlimited in it's power. it is this that lets us sit cross-legged, scratch our heads, humours us when we believe we are something separate from it. 

It is only limiting when you allow your thoughts to be externally CONTROLLED. The media (which is everywhere) is constantly spewing out semi-subliminal thoughts that are soaked up by our minds. It can get dangerous when these thoughts become real, or thoughts you believe were created by yourself become your ONLY thoughts.

Admittedly we often need to do some form of meditation to help re-find the true SELF from time to time, filter out the bullshit...

We ARE thought. We can not be separated from it except in death. You can of course always believe this while you are alive (this is a generalisation) but belief and TRUTH are often not the same thing.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 18, 2007)

If you are thought, then who is in control? You&#8217;re brain? How does you&#8217;re brain work? Chemicals, electric pulses, neurons n all that jazz. So you are essentially saying that you&#8217;re just a product of all that. Then you die and there&#8217;s nothing. So when you THINK &#8220;I am unhappy&#8221; then that is you? at that point in time YOU ARE the thought, the concept of unhappiness? But it is only you if you identify with that thought, if you attach your self to that thought.

Say you will harvest in exactly one month from now. When you PICTURE yourself at harvest, picking those buds, You are not the person picking them... and you are not your mind that thinks about that person picking them. You are the person that IS at that present time (1 month b4 harvest). You are your awareness. 

When you lift up your arm, you&#8217;re not thinking &#8220;okay arm.. lift&#8221; when you breath in and out you are not thinking about that. But if you DIRECT YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS/SELF/BEING towards your breath or the movement of lifting your arm, then you will see (if your not judging with your mind) that you are not your mind. 


You&#8217;re talk of external forces controlling us is consistent with what I am saying: one looks at a girl on a music video and thinks &#8220;man I wouldn&#8217;t mind giving her one.&#8221; But you are not that thought. Like you say; it is dangerous when you think you are. Because you&#8217;ll think you are unfulfilled because you can&#8217;t get the girl on TV, its painful. But if you just watch your thoughts, just allow them to happen, dis-identify with them, they will cease to be you. Then your thoughts will have no control over you. this has saved many people in prison, where they just surrender to what is, instead of thinking &#8220;I&#8217;m stuck here for life, im screwed&#8221; or &#8220;this isn&#8217;t so bad, I can just meditate. Oh wow this meditation is good, I feel so relaxed.&#8221; Instead of judging the situation, they just BE. Thus they are free of the constant nattering of their mind.

Many people (not knowing what it is) have experienced this feeling that is beyond the mind. It is in all of us, it is the true essence of existence, it is the core KNOWLEDGE that WE ARE. As soon as you try and judge it or understand it, it is pushed aside and you have become identified with your mind.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 18, 2007)

johnny1234 said:


> If you are thought, then who is in control? You&#8217;re brain? How does you&#8217;re brain work? Chemicals, electric pulses, neurons n all that jazz. So you are essentially saying that you&#8217;re just a product of all that. Then you die and there&#8217;s nothing. So when you THINK &#8220;I am unhappy&#8221; then that is you? at that point in time YOU ARE the thought, the concept of unhappiness?
> 
> _This is exactly what I'm saying, yes. You said it yourself, "when you think"... All thought is you, what else could it be? Yes we are just a product of chemicals 'n' all that jazz. What else do YOU THINK you are? You honestly believe that through meditation you transcend thought? Without thought you are either unconscious or dead._
> 
> ...


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## johnny1234 (Jun 18, 2007)

_What else do YOU THINK you are?_
I&#8217;ve just explained that, we are our consciousness, our being. The knower behind the thinker. It think that on the level of thought, but I also know that when I &#8216;watch&#8217; my thoughts with my SELF.

_Without thought you are either unconscious or dead._
That is a belief, not a fact. That is something you&#8217;ve come up with an opinion on through your learning and you believe it to be true. You cannot truly claim to understand human nature, the debate on the topic is never ending&#8230; do a bit of research on philosophy and you will see that for every theory for human nature, there is an opposing one. And the two are never concluded

_You think some other force is in control of your extremities? _
No I don&#8217;t think some other force is in control of your extremities, I think YOU are in control, and that YOU is not just chemicals in your brain. It is your BEING


_Our bodies and senses providing the only barriers to acknowledging this true freedom._
Our mind is the only barrier to DEEPLY KNOW this true freedom. I&#8217;m not talking about a mental understanding I&#8217;m talking about a deep knowing, a wisdom that we ARE. People can believe that they are not their mind, they can have the thought of it in their head, or they can try and explain it in a post (like me). But to truly experience it, it is beyond the mind. 

I honestly don&#8217;t think either of us will come to a conclusion here, we are both starting to go around in circles. All I can say is it&#8217;s unwise to knock concepts just because you can&#8217;t comprehend it with your mind (It is not about mental activity. It is surrender) If you have not allowed a glimpse of true BEING (which I&#8217;m sure you have at least for a split second but have instantly labelled it as thought) then you are in no position to argue its falsity.

You and I both want to argue this topic because if we were proven wrong, our beliefs and what we thought to be US is lost. Essentially we would lose a sense of self. However, this is a loss, only if you identify with your mind. If you knew that you are not your mind, you would realize that it doesn&#8217;t matter who is right or wrong because it&#8217;s all on the level of mind and ego. I should also practice what I preach and not get attached to my opinions and see them as myself but I must admit it takes practice at living in the now.

You feel that frustration from reading what i have wrote, that feeling that I am attacking you as a person or the feeling that i am so ignorant; well just look into that feeling, just sit there and allow that feeling it to be. don't judge it, don't manipulate it with your mind, don't think of something else, just watch it, stare at it and surrender to it. THAT is you, not your mind. and you will find that the frustration is no more. or, if you are identified with your mind, it will just cause more frustration...


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

You're wrong about me. I do not argue for the sake of proving myself right. I argue to discover the truth. For me it is honestly not about winning and losing.

I'm aware of the self, but the self needs thought. Even when we sleep, we are thinking. How much more of a surrender could there be than sleep? I can think of 2, unconsciousness and death.


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## johnny1234 (Jun 19, 2007)

your not about winning or loosing, I'm sorry to assume that. you must admit though. you label yourself as an atheist therefore you already have predisposed beliefs. so your not really seeking the truth you're just trying to prove your belief. just like i'm trying to prove mine.

it cannot be proved. i personally do not believe in god. but i cannot prove god does not exist. no1 can. if there was hard proof, there would be nothing to argue. no more religion etc.



skunkushybrid said:


> I'm aware of the self, but the self needs thought.


'the self needs thought'! this statement reveals a relationship between the self and thought. that is what I've been trying to show you, there is the self, and then there is thought, which the self uses. your own words have set out what i am saying. only i believe the mind is essential to life but secondary to true existence.

death is the end of thought, but how can u know [as a truth] that it is the end of the self? you may say:'how can i prove the opposite?' i can't i just know it deep down. it is truly unexplainable and magnificent, the presence of everything. but i can't show you that, it's up to you. 

like i said, we are both starting to just repeat ourselves, i vote you say your last bit and we end this with a  on our separate parts of the globe

peace out, riveting discussion, not many people i know would even bother with it all and you put up a very plausible argument 
Thankyou
p.s don't let that mind of yours get you down. haha just kidding


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

No, I believe that without one you cannot have the other and lead a normal life. A coma is without thought and what enlightenment do these people report? I have been unconscious, as far as I'm aware this is being without thought, and I remember nothing from it. From any time.

Without thought you could not know your self.

Yes, we are starting to go round in circles. The mind is a very powerful tool and if you ask it properly it'll let you believe anything. The truth is real, there should be no doubt in your mind. You believe you have a soul, but I know that this is merely your mind allowing you to believe this. Yet, ask yourself how strong your beliefs really are, for here you will find the truth. If there is any doubt, you must ask yourself why.

Yes, thankyou very enjoyable. 

Although I used to term myself a Realist, but it seems that isn't allowed and I have to be an atheist.


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## Ethnobotanist (Jul 8, 2007)

Skunk, I agree with most of what you're saying. I also agree with what most of what Johnny is saying. The one are where I disagree with you is in your conception of what consciousness is comprised of. Yes, in our ordinary state of consciousness, and even in non-ordinary (or extraordinary) states, there is always a sense of "self". We are products of our experiences, and everything plays into it: our active thoughts, our subconscious thoughts, our emotions, our memories, and the environment around us. However, you say that this is all that there is; anything else, where we are devoid of such a conceptual framwork, is either unconsciousness or death. I would argue otherwise, based upon my own personal experience and the experiences of some priveledged others. There is pure consciousness; something not totally unlike death or unconsciousness. In this state, there are no emotions, no active or subconscious thoughts, and no sense of "self". There are no concepts, and nothing arises in the "mind". But there is awareness, albeit, it is not active awareness. One does not realize that they are in this state, they simply "are" in this state. The realization, and the categorization and rationalization of such an experience comes afterward, when consciousness has again shifted. 

I would describe it, using the most abstract concepts that I can, as "fullness in nothingness", or a "living void". "Complete stillness" might be a desciption that approaches it, if it could indeed be described. I only know that this state of mind exists because I have experienced it, in a completely sober state. And I did not use meditation to achieve this, nor was I even actively seeking it. I sort of 'fell into it', to be honest. I was thinking of philosophical concepts, particularly those relevant to living a supposedly more natural existence, akin to cynicism (with less materialism to it). Eventually, I felt my thought patterns start to change, until they became reduced to something that can be related to "fuzzy logic"; basically, logical reductivism. And eventually, I arrived at this point. I fully believe it's our original, sort of primordial state of being; I won't attempt to debate whether it was something external or internal, though I'm inclined to believe that such a state of consciousness is not possible after physical death. Though I wouldn't discount the possibility that this is what might survive, if consciousness can indeed transcend physical limitations.

If you've ever had an intense entheogenic experience on some sort of psychadelic, and experienced "ego death", that state of mind approximates what happened to me. This was prior to my using any psychadelics, but after ingesting a quarter of particular potent shrooms, I realized that I could use such a state of consciousness to describe what I experienced then. They're not the same, but they are very close. People who practice Buddhist mindfullness can also sort of relate to the experience. I fully believe that this "pure consciousness" is what is often described in various religious traditions, and is the goal of Hinduism (as "moksha", resulting in supposed liberation from samsara), Buddhism (as "enlightenment", resulting in nirvana [nibbana]), and union with the Monad in Gnosticism (resulting in gnosis). It could also have been the ultimate goal of many ancient Stoics, Platonists, and Neo-Platonists. For me, it's entirely too coincidental for so many religions and philosophies to describe a nearly identical state, entheogens at "heroic doses" to induce such a state, and for me to experience such a state myself, to NOT exist. I just think it's a rare state, since we are so hard-wired into our egos and our conceptual reality.

And to think, I just sort of "stumbled" upon it, while if it is indeed one and the same, many people spend their entire lives seeking it. My view of reality was completely different for quite a long time afterwards, as if I was experiencing everything, but not nearly as affected by it. I sort of sacrificed this state of mind for booze, sex with gorgeous women, and the like. In other words, I gave into my desires, rather than rising above and controlling them, partaking but not surrendering. And my ego re-established itself almost completely. I do, still, however, have a lingering innate sense of the division between percepts and concepts, and I'm grateful for that. I doubt I'll ever achieve anything like that again under my own power, but it would definately be worth it to look into the altered states that psychadelics provide much more closely.

So yes, we are products of firing neurons and "all that jazz". Maybe there are no external forces in the world, and we are just in our own heads, interracting with each other in a conceptual consensus reality of our own creation. But everything we are is rooted in our own experience, and we cannot relate our experiences without dilluting them in some way so someone else understands it according to their own experiences. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The converse of that statement is also true. But with all of the amazing things the mind is capable of, there has to more to the world than simply what we get with our sensory organs and our ordinary consciousness. And if there is a God, and I'm not admitting such a thing, being the pragmatist and skeptic I am, I suspect it is pure consciousness. Because I suspect that's what we "are".

~Will


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## space_weaseal (Jul 8, 2007)

Shit she is just trash with mony, and no talent. The spiritual BS is all for public image. 
To me i think she is not attractive at all and she is a nasty hole.


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## johnny1234 (Jul 8, 2007)

nice post ethnobotinast; did u read our discussion from the start or just the last bits of it? cuz we sorta went over a bit of that but our main conflict was just concerning the concept of 'self' the 'i am.'

you really ought to read eckhart tolles work if you haven't already. the majority of it is completely consistent with what you are saying. i think you'd really like it and would be able to relate to it. it's not a religion or way of life or anything like that. his dvds where he goes to retreats etc are exceptionally good.

again, well done on your post.


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## johnny1234 (Jul 8, 2007)

space_weaseal said:


> To me i think she is not attractive at all and she is a nasty hole.


as if you wouldn't mind a quick shag from paris hilton


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## space_weaseal (Jul 8, 2007)

johnny1234 said:


> as if you wouldn't mind a quick shag from paris hilton


Sorry man i do have some standards, and i dont think there is enough beer, or bud out there to make me tap that..."In my younger days i would fuck a rattlesnake if someone held its head," but not now.
 
</IMG>


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## johnny1234 (Jul 8, 2007)

hahaha, fair enough space w.


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## skunkushybrid (Jul 9, 2007)

Ethnobotanist said:


> Skunk, I agree with most of what you're saying. I also agree with what most of what Johnny is saying. The one are where I disagree with you is in your conception of what consciousness is comprised of. Yes, in our ordinary state of consciousness, and even in non-ordinary (or extraordinary) states, there is always a sense of "self". We are products of our experiences, and everything plays into it: our active thoughts, our subconscious thoughts, our emotions, our memories, and the environment around us. However, you say that this is all that there is; anything else, where we are devoid of such a conceptual framwork, is either unconsciousness or death. I would argue otherwise, based upon my own personal experience and the experiences of some priveledged others. There is pure consciousness; something not totally unlike death or unconsciousness. In this state, there are no emotions, no active or subconscious thoughts, and no sense of "self". There are no concepts, and nothing arises in the "mind". But there is awareness, albeit, it is not active awareness. One does not realize that they are in this state, they simply "are" in this state. The realization, and the categorization and rationalization of such an experience comes afterward, when consciousness has again shifted.
> 
> I would describe it, using the most abstract concepts that I can, as "fullness in nothingness", or a "living void". "Complete stillness" might be a desciption that approaches it, if it could indeed be described. I only know that this state of mind exists because I have experienced it, in a completely sober state. And I did not use meditation to achieve this, nor was I even actively seeking it. I sort of 'fell into it', to be honest. I was thinking of philosophical concepts, particularly those relevant to living a supposedly more natural existence, akin to cynicism (with less materialism to it). Eventually, I felt my thought patterns start to change, until they became reduced to something that can be related to "fuzzy logic"; basically, logical reductivism. And eventually, I arrived at this point. I fully believe it's our original, sort of primordial state of being; I won't attempt to debate whether it was something external or internal, though I'm inclined to believe that such a state of consciousness is not possible after physical death. Though I wouldn't discount the possibility that this is what might survive, if consciousness can indeed transcend physical limitations.
> 
> ...


A pure consciousness. The space between consciousness and unconsciousness, maybe the exact point at where the two meet. I remember the same analogy being used once on this site for the turning point of control. Where control shifts from one person to another.

Could be. What i felt was the precipice of death (for I know we have the power to die if we so wish, just by using our minds), could have been something different, could have been what you describe, but I doubt it. I feel I have seen death within myself, but not this pure consciousness you speak of. I have FELT it, but this was not real. I still had the purest thought there is, THE AWARENESS OF SELF. When you feel something, this IS thought. It is all thought, all self, because this is what we are.

There is a part of the brain that is unused. I believe that we may even have the capability to alter ourselves on a genetic level. How do we go about unlocking these secrets within OURSELVES? By ignoring thought, or embracing it?

I choose the latter.


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## johnny1234 (Jul 9, 2007)

"How do we go about unlocking these secrets within OURSELVES? By ignoring thought, or embracing it?"

okay. embrace thought. just think about these inner secretes for the rest of your life and try to rationally work it out. think think think. use that mind! 

or you could simply realize that there is no 'secretes within ourselves' that we ought to find. it is already in us. it is our essence. it's not some goal to reach in the future. it's right here and now it's your being. you may call this 'being' thought and i may call it beyond thought but they're just labels to express the same idea. 

"I still had the purest thought there is, THE AWARENESS OF SELF"

the thought of the awareness of self is just a thought. i agree, it feels pretty good to think that, it's pure and all. but in my opinion true awareness is not a thought, it's a deep knowing, your inner core. it's so much more than thought. you can get it when you're not thinking of any of this, u can get it when you observe your thoughts or emotions.


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