# Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???



## oHsiN666 (Apr 18, 2012)

i want to say this is my best grow to date. the fan leafs usually never got to big or just died off prematurely. well, this round they are huge!! almost too huge. i have heard that fan leafs produce energy which provided the plant growth and nutrient flow. or something along them lines. dont quote me. but i heard they help a lot more then people think. is this true? is it counterproductive to cut off the lower to mid huger larger fan leafs? what if they are blocking light? i have chopped off the lower 40-50% growth. i have topped my plants, or FIMmed i should say, at least 2-3 times. so they are quite bushy. so there is not many fan leafs left, but the ones that are left are big and are blocking light. the ones up top are blocking light to the middle of the plant. i dont want to ruin a quite possibly perfect grow. but i would like light to penetrate better.


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## vh13 (Apr 18, 2012)

Keep the leaves.


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 19, 2012)

can you explain why? without an explanation i can not take your advise...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Apr 19, 2012)

This is why..LEAVE EM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo


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## Dakota Big Smokin (Apr 19, 2012)

Its simple, leaves are the engines of your plant just leave them be..


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## 840/2 (Apr 19, 2012)

Just bend them gently down and/or outta the way


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 19, 2012)

hey guys, im just talking about the lower ones, and SOME of the middle leafs in the middle. and JUST the BUGGER fan leafs. that is all. im not talking about all the leafs or anything like that. but i will leave the rest of the leafs alone. i just had to tie up some plants and was tieing them up with bamboo shots. kinda squeezed the main branches closer together. not much, but enough to have to light travel further down around the outsides of the plants. so there is not as much crowding.


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## mccumcumber (Apr 19, 2012)

Plain and simple, leaves are like your solar pannels, they are what absorbs the light that drives photosynthesis. Cutting a leaf off doesn't help you in anyway unless the leaf is dead. This theory that they block light lacks scientific backing. Look up how light works (double slit experiment comes to mind) and photosynthesis and you'll soon see why eliminating your leaves is harming you.


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 19, 2012)

ahhh. okay. fifth grade science is all coming back to me now. 

but what about them Scrog growers? who chop off everything below the screen? that is all i was talking about. in general, im doing a Sog style grow. instead of using a trellis system to support my plants i am using bamboo stakes. see what im saying? im only removing lower growth? nothing above the 40% line. well, i did take a few off here and there. but mainly the bottom ones...


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## UncleBuck (Apr 19, 2012)

why did Dog put all these leaves on my plant?


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## UncleBuck (Apr 19, 2012)

12H2O + 6CO2 ---> C6H12O6 + 6H2O + 6O2

C6H12O6 = glucose molecule (plant biomass)


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## mccumcumber (Apr 19, 2012)

Dog put them on their b/c Ron Paul isn't president... He is displeased with all the conspiracies against Dr. Ron the Paul aka Turtle McNasty.


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 19, 2012)

hahahaha!!! damn conspiracy theories!!!!


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## + WitchDoctor + (Apr 19, 2012)

Lol.

I think when they cut off everything for a SCROG they do it before flip, or before flowering at least. I trim everything from the bottom six inches of the plant right before I flip.

And yea, the leaves absorb all that energy. Some people tie them or pin them down gently, the most I ever do is kinda tuck them down a little bit if there's a bigger bud next to them.


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## zo0t (Apr 20, 2012)

keep da mofukim levz on as jose cerventes would say only tarded peeps trim da fan levz !


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 20, 2012)

i can't even understand what yer saying. but ok. cool. and yeah i flipped them 10 days ago. and have just been tieing them up for the most part. trimming off a tad little bit on them bottoms can't be too counter productive. im looking at at least 50-100g per plant. with all my past estimates being lower then actual yields, i think ill be okay.


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## swishsweet (Apr 20, 2012)

some of the light actually passes through the leaf, save the leaves!


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## 420forme (Apr 20, 2012)

I pull leaves, Cervantes can kiss my ass. I take hand fulls off all through flower. Improves air flow, light penetration, and mold resistance. I get fan leaves the size of your head, if I left them that's all you would see is leaf.
I have grown with leaving everything on there, just makes for alot of undeveloped buds, and alot more trimming. I had no change in yield.


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## Po boy (Apr 20, 2012)

interesting


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## Gone Green (Apr 20, 2012)

I only pull damaged leaves. If it isn't damaged, and is blocking a budsite, move the budsite or the leaf. If you can't manipulate your plants without bugging them out too bad, you're doing it wrong. It's okay to snip the bottom parts of the plants, it's okay not to. Depends on preference. I choose not to because that's where I'll be doing my breeding and "cookie jar" smokes.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 21, 2012)

Damn, with every new crop of newbies this subject comes up again. Learn botany people, and learn how to do a search, starting on the keyword of "lollipopping".



420forme said:


> I have grown with leaving everything on there, just makes for alot of undeveloped buds, and alot more trimming. I had no change in yield.


Not buying it, or IOW, that's botanically impossible as healthy green leaves drive bud production. If I had to guess, you screw up your leaves like most using low N "bloom" foods, they yellow, become necrotic and useless anyway. Yes or no?


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## cerberus (Apr 21, 2012)

i have onserved it is strain dependant and grow medium dependant:

indica's produce fatter and many more leaves to bud ratio.

growing hydroponically and with intense light (K's) leaves are produced in abundance, enought (as was said earlier) to really fuck with air flow and create dead pockets within the lants mass. also, plants will only grow to the carrying capacity of the space they have, which means at some point you will have the plant fighting between leaf growth and flower growth. although some will claim botany and nature deffence, we don't grow like nature. co2 isnt 1500 ppm's in nature, water is always ph rock stable at 6.1 in nature, nutrients are always overly abundent in natue.. when we over feed and over drive our plants we have to adjust to it... I good exampe of growing tech being different from nature is the 5-1 light schedule, that was developed by florists..


but do a lot of reading (and not pot books, just standard botnay shit) before you take anyones advise on here, people are typically dinks..


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## TriPurple (Apr 21, 2012)

I believe in removing some leaves to let light penetrate better & to give more space, better air flow for indoor. Outdoors is a different thing, the sun isn't stationary & all the wind & space it can handle. I'd like to see a side by side comparison surely someone has this documented.


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## sniffer (Apr 21, 2012)

the Bigger the Fan leaves , , the Bigger the Buds


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## missnu (Apr 21, 2012)

There is no reason to remove the leaves really since it is the leaves that "catch" the rays of light and then turn them into usable energy for the plant...so really a leaf can't block light...I mean it might block light from getting to other leaves, but if you want the middle of the plant to grow better then make sure it's leaves are on top...leaves feed the node they come off of...so move the leaves, not the buds...buds don't catch light the way the leaves do...so the best thing for bigger buds is making sure any leaves near buds get lots and lots of light...as the leaves directly supply what they are closest to.


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## 420forme (Apr 21, 2012)

1st, Uncle Ben - No
2nd, If bud sites don't need light, then why when my plant is ready for harvest, ill find a big fan leaf had
been covering a bud site, and that site is very light green, fluffy, and under developed? Everything else is dank and tight that had been receiving light.
3rd, I've done side by side tests of trimming vs not. I saw, as stated above alot of undeveloped sites on the untrimmed. No real change in yield, if anything, trimmed was better.
4th, yes i'm talking indoors. 
Now I don't strip the plant naked, but if I don't like it, I remove it.
Indoors you have to make changes and adapt, I've never heard any complaints about my product.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 21, 2012)

420forme said:


> 1st, Uncle Ben - No
> 2nd, If bud sites don't need light, then why when my plant is ready for harvest, ill find a big fan leaf had
> been covering a bud site, and that site is very light green, fluffy, and under developed? Everything else is dank and tight that had been receiving light.
> 3rd, I've done side by side tests of trimming vs not. I saw, as stated above alot of undeveloped sites on the untrimmed. No real change in yield, if anything, trimmed was better.
> ...


Strip 'em all off.


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## bproof (Apr 22, 2012)

if plant dont need them, it will kill it him/herself


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## legallyflying (Apr 22, 2012)

Like most things, there is not a simple answer like "keep all your leaves". Yes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that leaves are the surfaces where light photons are absorbed, and carbohydrates are produced. Leaves are also very important for cooling the plant and also maintaining the flow of nutrient and water through the plant. 

There is a balance between the energy needs of the plant (due to its size) and it's ability to produce energy to support growth. However! The very precense of leaves increases the need for more water uptake, nutrient assimilation, and carb production. A plant is subject to all kinds of natural hazards that cause defoliation.. Wind, disease, insects, animals, etc. the balance in the plant is not so delicate that loosing some leaves is going to cause the collapse of the plant. This is why you can lollipop a plant and low and behold...your yield will increase. Bud sites need light, as do lower leaves. Light penetration is severely limited indoors. Lower leaves don't receive a whole lot of energy if they are shaded. 

Bottom line, defoliating can increase yield if used properly. I would never hack more than 20% of the canopy at one time but defoliating can increase side branches, bud maturation and increase bud sites. Simply saying "hack them off" or "leave them they are the energy sites" is a gross over simplification. 

I typically defoliate a week or so before the flip, and after week 5. Before the flip, removing leaves will thicken the canopy. I take off any huge leaves that are blocking the understory and I pluck all yellow as soon as they turn. This increase air circulation and wards off mildew. Towards the end of flower, the plants nutrient needs are greatly reduced so I take off leaves that are blocking bud sites to aid in maturation and color development 

The best advice is try it in moderation and observe the results.


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## eightgage (Apr 22, 2012)

Well said Sir


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 23, 2012)

uhm... okay. i never cut them off before, but i never chopped off the bottoms before. and th ehuge fan leafs are the ones im mostly speaking of. as i have mentioned 1000655349238402984203984098484 times. thanks!!


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## MADnuggi (Apr 23, 2012)

its obviously a compromise, indoors with limited space and light your gunna need to take some leaves off.. 

Every once in a while the opportunity cost of cutting of leaf will be greater than the extra "energy" it produces while staying on the plant

sometimes there is just too much leaf in the room...


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## legallyflying (Apr 23, 2012)

I only smoke the leaves, I throw the buds away.


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 23, 2012)

^with a stupid answer like that, i bet you get high off lawn clippings. 

@MADnuggi - that is my thoughts on it. im only chopping a few small leafs here and there. i have a little bit of an overcrowding issue going on and i want light to penetrate further through the plants canopy. i can not LST them at this point and even if i could i would still opt to chop a few leafs off. i need to rearrange every plant in the tent and make sure there is even light distribution so with out chopping a few off here or there is see no other way for light to penetrate. the older lower fan leafs are usually the first to go. then and little leafs that may interfere. im looking for maximum flower development and not a shit load of leafs to trim off in the end. i do know that leafs serve a vital roll in plant and bud production, however so does light and fresh ventilation. and i do not think that more leafs will make up if i am lacking in either of those other departments. so fuck it! im chopping what i feel is needed. like i have said a million and ten times already, this is not my first grow and i do know that a few leafs aint going to affect my overall yield. i do think that if i leave too many leafs on it WILL effect my overall yield. so, basically i agree with ya. its funny how i can ask a question and 20 ppl will say "No" but with no scientific backing for their answers. and the people the say "Yes" always explain why. i just can not grasp that ideology!!


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## TriPurple (Apr 24, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> I only smoke the leaves, I throw the buds away.


 I wanna be your friend..... also, I agree with your method of leaf removal. It's common sense not rocket science.


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## gioua (Apr 24, 2012)

what I normally do is during the veg state up till the time the fan leaves are starting to become smaller (usually about 2-4 weeks into flowering) I will remove a few bigger fans (the ones about the size of my hand) or tuck them under. Last year I chose to super crop them and took more fan leaves out of the way the yeild was great but the taste was so-so this yer will be doing the same but no super croping


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## flowamasta (Apr 24, 2012)

I most certainly trim many leaves on the top of my scrog canopy, i do my first good leaf trim when i do my topping and fimming before i flip, and again when neaded at around week 4-5 flowering to help the smaller buds get more colour and fatten up some more. i was slightly lazy my last grow trimming popcorn and small spindly growth under the canopy, but i ended up with a couple of oz of popcorn from 1 plant (out of 20 ounces) 
*If i didnt trim the leaves during flowering, alot of fan leaves would be in the way, and my light penetration would greatly be diminished*. my canopy fills my 1.2 metre tent area with 1 plant, and it gets really really bushy if i dont maintain. without it circulation drops dramatically, and transpiration suffers and humidity also rises...I myself have only 3 grown under my belt but i have noticed a massive improvement with trim cleaning, *and yield does increase, if done correctly*, and not furiously taking more than 15% of leaves!!! those small buds getting too much shade will grow spindly and light green in colour, i have actually found buds, and positioned them to get more light, and within 4-5 days, I will see a noticeable colour change, and perhaps density will go up in that short time. 
hope that helps! 

_*check out my last grow towards the end, to have a squiz at my 20 ounce monster plant 

FlowaMasta*_


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 24, 2012)

fuck it!! im going back through my entire garden and thinning it out. i took about 20-40% of the plants growth off as most of it is bullshit because i FIM my plants about 2-4 times each head. i have one plant i shit you not that could easily be a half pound. id be willing to bet based off my last grows im averaging about 100-120g per plant of this harvest. my last grow was the first grow i thinned out the bottom growth and i got easily 114g off it. the grow before that i had a bunch of 100g plants and a bunch of 56g plants. if i walk with 3-4oz per plant on this current cycle i will walk with roughly 1900g. not too shabby for my first 4x8, 2x600w grow. and first time with these TGA strains. after the crap i dealt with last night im hitting up Home Depot here in a few minutes to go get tomato cages. i think i may have overcrowded my tent. i probably should chuck 1 plant outside, but i think its a little bit too late for that. even the plants i didn't top are big huge bushes!!! im quite frankly digging it, but i know i have a lot of work cut out for me within the next few weeks. i just think im starting to get a little scared. shits a jungle in there!


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## TriPurple (Apr 24, 2012)

With a canopy like that you will notice a big improvement on your lower buds. Beautiful grow oHsiN666!!!!!


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## MISSPHOEBE (Apr 24, 2012)

I have made a discovery with my last GROW..... Plants Like Their Leaves........

Leaves R There For A Reason

They are the Energy Suppliers...... the Solar Panels....... the ARMS and LEGS and LIMBS of the Plant........

Without them the Plant suffers.........

Just like if I ripped off your arms and legs...... you would cease to be able to function properly!!! LOL

MJ plants need all the leaves they can get........ I have tried removing leaves - and they do NOT like it......... Just Leave the Leaves!!!


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 24, 2012)

^no if you ripped off my arms and limbs id still have to teeth to pull the trigger. sorry i do not follow that analogy. you may not understand that removing 6-8 leafs isnt shit!!!

@tripurple, THANK YOU!!! i have to update some photos tonight. just been to busy. i bought tomato cages so the bigger ones will gets more support. and yeah the bottom lowers leafs are coming off tonight. i highly doubt that removing no more then 10 leafs will decrease my yield, if anything i know for a fact it will improve it!!! leafs may be solar panels, but if you stack 10 solar panels on top of each other, the bottom ones are worthless!!!


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## legallyflying (Apr 24, 2012)

MISSPHOEBE said:


> I have made a discovery with my last GROW..... Plants Like Their Leaves........
> 
> Leaves R There For A Reason
> 
> ...


God this forum is full of fucking retards.


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## cerberus (Apr 24, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> God this forum is full of fucking retards.


right?! these are the threads that absolutly kill me. one size fits all, everybody should do it my way (Which i JUST DISCOVERED?).. yada yada oh and if you say different i'll throw an insult and leave cuz your an idiot.. yeah man fucktards deep..

eh i'm in no beueno mood anyways..

good call meng


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## TriPurple (Apr 24, 2012)

Come on dudes smoke a bowl & chill ..... why is there so much pent-up frustration here. This isn't the Flush or no flush thread


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## Chronic Indica (Apr 25, 2012)

I just tuck the leaves under my buds so that that they can get some light.


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## Rcb (Apr 25, 2012)

WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL POSTING ABOUT THIS...please use seach bar..


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## TriPurple (Apr 25, 2012)

Chronic Indica said:


> I just tuck the leaves under my buds so that that they can get some light.


 The problem I have with tucking is they pop back within 24 hours..... thats a lot of tucking.


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## minutaughn (Apr 25, 2012)

i usually do the same thing, prunning, so the light reaches others. i heard throught the grape vine that the weater leaves take energy from the flowerinh ????. my question is wen they start the flowering stage, do they need allot of heat ...??? can i go from 600 watts to 340 watts, wat im saying , do i need extreme heat for budding???


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## yesum (Apr 26, 2012)

I take off leaves blocking buds from light and if they are causing airflow blockage. The older brittle and maybe yellow leaves are less efficient.


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## legallyflying (Apr 26, 2012)

TriPurple said:


> Come on dudes smoke a bowl & chill ..... why is there so much pent-up frustration here. This isn't the Flush or no flush thread


It might as well be. How many should I remove the fan leave threads are there? 1,000? 

BTW..I don't flush


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## legallyflying (Apr 26, 2012)

minutaughn said:


> i usually do the same thing, prunning, so the light reaches others. i heard throught the grape vine that the weater leaves take energy from the flowerinh ????. my question is wen they start the flowering stage, do they need allot of heat ...??? can i go from 600 watts to 340 watts, wat im saying , do i need extreme heat for budding???


Ok, I'm not going to go ape shit. But, seriously, turn off the TV and think for a moment. When does flowering occur? Where is the sun at that time of the year? Is it hotter or colder? How are the wave lengths of light different.


Catch a guy a fish and he will eat for a day.. but at least he won't be asking a fuck ton of stupid questions about how to better catch a fish.


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## cerberus (Apr 26, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> BTW..I don't flush



ohh man you are so going to hell.. i mean no questions asked.. leaf murderer and non-flusher.. ::whew::

lol


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## TriPurple (Apr 26, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> It might as well be. How many should I remove the fan leave threads are there? 1,000?
> 
> BTW..I don't flush


 I don't either. I was thinking of a thread ........... how many of those who flush, don't prune any of their fan leaves, & vise versa. Could be some interesting results.  I'll have to smoke on that........


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## JestersBud (Apr 26, 2012)

I would just cut the fan leaves in half once they reached over six inches long.


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## bigbuddc (Apr 26, 2012)

Hey people check this guys grow out he strips ALL the fan leaves off with no problems at all to the buds. One big fucking cola of all bud. Check it out: http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/138874-come-sog-me-112-plant-2-liter-hempy-sog.html


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## TriPurple (Apr 27, 2012)

bigbuddc said:


> Hey people check this guys grow out he strips ALL the fan leaves off with no problems at all to the buds. One big fucking cola of all bud. Check it out: http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/138874-come-sog-me-112-plant-2-liter-hempy-sog.html


 Very educational ... Thanks for sharing!!!!!


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 27, 2012)

see what im saying!!!


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 27, 2012)

hahahahaha!!!! everyone is fucked! and i agree, this place is kinda hostile towards people who are asking questions. its just a fucking question. if all the energy people used to be dicks on these boards spent towards growing ideal MJ, i bed there would be a lot less posters. seems like the arrogant hostile ones how much to prove and very little to gain with being assholes. in my book, your plants are probably suffering from asshole-itous as well. you plants can only absorb the energy and attention your human omits. i dont even yell or argue around my plants. i just sing and dance!!!! and the uptight asswads obviously aren't growing good herbs. stoned people aren't uptight. i will admit if you catch me before oil rips i may come across as an asshole, so im just as guilty as the rest. but seriously, there is a ton of assholes on these boards and i bet there plants suck ass also, lol!!!


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 27, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> Ok, I'm not going to go ape shit. But, seriously, turn off the TV and think for a moment. When does flowering occur? Where is the sun at that time of the year? Is it hotter or colder? How are the wave lengths of light different.
> 
> 
> Catch a guy a fish and he will eat for a day.. but at least he won't be asking a fuck ton of stupid questions about how to better catch a fish.


are you comparing outdoor growing to indoor growing? and you think catching a small fresh water fish is the same as catching a huge salt water fish, lol???!!!!


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## lordjin (Apr 27, 2012)

420forme said:


> I pull leaves, Cervantes can kiss my ass. I take hand fulls off all through flower. Improves air flow, light penetration, and mold resistance. I get fan leaves the size of your head, if I left them that's all you would see is leaf.
> I have grown with leaving everything on there, just makes for alot of undeveloped buds, and alot more trimming. I had no change in yield.


I've seen the same thing with an aggressively leaf-trimmed plant. Solid nugs all the way down. There is a lot to be said for light and air flow.


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 27, 2012)

yeah, im clipping the big ones... and how will i know what the truth is til i see it with my own eyes and do a little trial and erroring on my own. ill do it to have the tent. i need to get another couple clip fans in my tent. i do know that. 1 clip fan in a 4x8 is nowhere near what i should have. i have a 12 or 14" oscillating fan next to my 4x4 and that is doing pretty good i can say.


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## jimmyc (Apr 27, 2012)

I usually give them a tug and if they come off, so be it. If not I leave em. I know it sounds wonky but it works for me.


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## yesum (Apr 28, 2012)

^^ You the guy in the avatar? Just kidding. He was a real piece of shit. Demeo and his crew were assholes too. The mob guys in real life are scum, that is what I gathered from reading on them.


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 28, 2012)

all of them, or just the ones you read about? them are fighting words in my family.


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## dbkick (Apr 29, 2012)

zo0t said:


> keep da mofukim levz on as jose cerventes would say only tarded peeps trim da fan levz !


Jose huh? haha, tarded. my god the youth, Idiocracy for real.


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## oHsiN666 (Apr 29, 2012)

^LMFAO!!!!! second that.


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## TriPurple (May 2, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> ^with a stupid answer like that, i bet you get high off lawn clippings.
> 
> @MADnuggi - that is my thoughts on it. im only chopping a few small leafs here and there. i have a little bit of an overcrowding issue going on and i want light to penetrate further through the plants canopy. i can not LST them at this point and even if i could i would still opt to chop a few leafs off. i need to rearrange every plant in the tent and make sure there is even light distribution so with out chopping a few off here or there is see no other way for light to penetrate. the older lower fan leafs are usually the first to go. then and little leafs that may interfere. im looking for maximum flower development and not a shit load of leafs to trim off in the end. i do know that leafs serve a vital roll in plant and bud production, however so does light and fresh ventilation. and i do not think that more leafs will make up if i am lacking in either of those other departments. so fuck it! im chopping what i feel is needed. like i have said a million and ten times already, this is not my first grow and i do know that a few leafs aint going to affect my overall yield. i do think that if i leave too many leafs on it WILL effect my overall yield. so, basically i agree with ya. its funny how i can ask a question and 20 ppl will say "No" but with no scientific backing for their answers. and the people the say "Yes" always explain why. i just can not grasp that ideology!!


 It's a joke , a joke son..... he keeps pitchin' 'em & you keep missin' 'em


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## oHsiN666 (May 2, 2012)

uhm.... okay????


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## qaws83 (May 3, 2012)

they're the solar panels of your plants photosynthesis and all the stuff you were taught in 9th grade biology they power development and keep stuff growin, if the leave are ruining the canopy try something like lollipopping or duck footing fully developed fan leaves


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## oHsiN666 (May 4, 2012)

im sorry my friend you are a day late and about $1.50 short. and i skipped 9th grade biology for 9th grade Bong loads 101. learned about it in 5th grade, but they were not teaching me how to grow cannabis. if the leafs are not going to get light anyway they are not solar panels, they are shaders. the bottom fan leafs will not get much light in my garden. i have too many plants in there. i have plants that are about 3-4ft tall. i dont think 6-10 fan leafs will hurt it any. and im not repeating myself anymore. i have learned what i needed to learn from this question. thanks to all who helped.


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## Tbot (May 4, 2012)

I have buds that are growing right under a huge fan leaf. it never gets any light, and is frosty, dense and just as developed as the main cola. Direct sunlight on the bud is not the only way it grows. The plant is a well designed bio-machine evolved over hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of years.  IF IT DID NOT REQUIRE THE FAN LEAVES THE PLANT WOULD NOT GROW THEM. Common sence prevails.


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## cerberus (May 4, 2012)

i hope this thread goes for ever.. .


thanks OP


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## oHsiN666 (May 4, 2012)

you grow outside or indoors? shade grown cannabis is better, if it is grown outdoors.


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## TriPurple (May 4, 2012)

Tbot said:


> I have buds that are growing right under a huge fan leaf. it never gets any light, and is frosty, dense and just as developed as the main cola. Direct sunlight on the bud is not the only way it grows. The plant is a well designed bio-machine evolved over hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of years. IF IT DID NOT REQUIRE THE FAN LEAVES THE PLANT WOULD NOT GROW THEM. Common sence prevails.


 We love pictures


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## oHsiN666 (May 4, 2012)

i second that as well.


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## ANC (May 5, 2012)

Now that we established that raw cannabis, i.e. juiced leaves is a nutritional essential, it may not be a question of should I cut off leaves, but rather how many can I remove without reducing flowering too much.

Aggree on the shadegrown weed, just a shame about the yield.


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## TriPurple (May 5, 2012)

Experiment with some lower leaves that block direct light...... I notice an improvement


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## dvs1038 (May 6, 2012)

legallyflying said:


> It might as well be. How many should I remove the fan leave threads are there? 1,000?
> 
> BTW..I don't flush


Don't flush which one the toilet or ur plants, jus screwin witcha. But yeah its like any plant that produces fruit/flowers pruning can increase size if done correctly. Just look at a farmer growing apples or oranges they prune their trees so that they will produce less fruit but they will be larger. Now days u have a lot of farmers that are trying to practice sustainable farming where they don't prune the trees and end up with a lot of smaller fruit its a big part of the reason that "baby apples" have become so popular recently they aren't pruning trees and letting em grow naturally.


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## rocknratm (May 6, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> you grow outside or indoors? shade grown cannabis is better, if it is grown outdoors.


can I ask why? im curious.


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## cerberus (May 6, 2012)

because oudoors provides a moving light source and the shade moves across the plant.

indoor shade grown, light mover + lattice work is cronic but super over the top for most producers/growers..


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## rocknratm (May 6, 2012)

cerberus said:


> because oudoors provides a moving light source and the shade moves across the plant.
> 
> indoor shade grown, light mover + lattice work is cronic but super over the top for most producers/growers..


ok shade moves across the plant, woultnt more light mean more energy to the plant? or is it too much in the direct sun all day? Im super confused


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## cerberus (May 6, 2012)

look up baby carrots.

its the same principle, its sweeter, more tender, way less weight but high in all the goodies.

its super tech/high end, frankly i don't use this method in any way. but it is a method. again babby carrots, or shade grown coffee..

i chop fan leaves and grow fat heavey nugs.

edit:

i guess more shade grown coffee than baby carrots,


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## yesum (May 7, 2012)

Tbot said:


> I have buds that are growing right under a huge fan leaf. it never gets any light, and is frosty, dense and just as developed as the main cola. Direct sunlight on the bud is not the only way it grows. The plant is a well designed bio-machine evolved over hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of years. IF IT DID NOT REQUIRE THE FAN LEAVES THE PLANT WOULD NOT GROW THEM. Common sence prevails.



It is under one leaf, not several stacked over each other, total different thing. A fair amount of light will make it through 1 leaf, several will all but block it. 

In nature the light gets under the leaves from different angles. The fan leaves are vital as they store nutrients and are needed in a wild under fertilized soil. Not the case with my indoor pampered plants.


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## rocknratm (May 7, 2012)

pampered for sure. if mine went outside theyd die lol


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## REALSTYLES (May 12, 2012)

You can take the leaves off the bottom where they aren't getting any light. But should only be done a week before flowering here's an example pic from 2010

As you can see I removed all the lower leaves that didn't receive proper light 


But the top leaves were untouched I got 8oz off that plant


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## oHsiN666 (May 13, 2012)

i can't believe wtf i started, lol!!!!


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## hardknox72 (May 15, 2012)

I use a defoliation technique. I start in veg once a wk. and go until I flip my lights. check it out. My internodes are stacked by the time i flip my lights and it allows lower growth to shoot up in the scrog.


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## Opm (May 16, 2012)

People are ignoring basic indoor light functionality. 

Applying the inverse square law to light output as you move farther away from the source, why would you think that removing a leaf closer to the light would produce more growth hitting a leaf further away when the lumens are reduced so much?

Trim up from the bottom not down from the top.


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## bgoodgrow (May 16, 2012)

Hey Oshi, Great topic, I've been wondering the same thing lately. I was stumbling one time and found this very interesting article that I think will help expand your mind on how plants actually relate with the sun. 
http://inhabitat.com/13-year-old-makes-solar-power-breakthrough-by-harnessing-the-fibonacci-sequence/
Super smart ass kid man.


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## oHsiN666 (May 17, 2012)

well, for the millionth time....i am only removing bottom leafs!!!! do people only care out them selfs? no, im serious! i have stated time and time again that i am only removing lower bottom leafs and i get the same ignorant responses. i can not stand that shit!!! if you are going to post make sense! dont post the same thing everyone else has already posted. lets see how much further this really goes now. its all back and forth garbage at this point. 

and BGOOD. thats tight!!! i read Maximum Yield from time to time and there is a little kid in there flexing skills on vegetable and fruits. i shit you not. the dude who got me into growing my own meds started when he was 9. his first grow was on a 50ft yellow school bus. oldschool hippy commune styles. i wish i had never stopped after i started in 97. had i went through the last 15 years growing i wouldn't be asking silly questions about BOTTOM LEAFS BEING REMOVED BECAUSE THEY DONT GET ENOUGH LIGHT!!!!


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## Uncle Ben (May 17, 2012)

Sheesh.....every new crop of noobies......here we go again!

This is all pretty stupid. Being in the camp that leaves all leaves on, and leaving it up to mother nature to do her thing, would some of you botanical genius's tell me how leaving a fan leaf alone hurts the plant's production? 

UB


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## Opm (May 17, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> well, for the millionth time....i am only removing bottom leafs!!!! do people only care out them selfs? no, im serious! i have stated time and time again that i am only removing lower bottom leafs and i get the same ignorant responses. i can not stand that shit!!! if you are going to post make sense! dont post the same thing everyone else has already posted. lets see how much further this really goes now. its all back and forth garbage at this point.
> 
> and BGOOD. thats tight!!! i read Maximum Yield from time to time and there is a little kid in there flexing skills on vegetable and fruits. i shit you not. the dude who got me into growing my own meds started when he was 9. his first grow was on a 50ft yellow school bus. oldschool hippy commune styles. i wish i had never stopped after i started in 97. had i went through the last 15 years growing i wouldn't be asking silly questions about BOTTOM LEAFS BEING REMOVED BECAUSE THEY DONT GET ENOUGH LIGHT!!!!


Your first post asked "what if they are blocking light?"


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## dvs1038 (May 17, 2012)

Just my opinion but I think mother nature will make the choice for u if u let it whether indoors or outdoors, any leaves fan or otherwise on the parts of the plants that may be blocked will simply use up their energy turn yellow and die off, its just a choice of growers to remove those leaves that will die anyways, just don't get over zealous and remove too many.


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## cerberus (May 18, 2012)

normally i don't reply to UB because it's always a hostile reply BUT I un-ignored you because this thread has been so amusing..

@UB you grow with C02? or chelated nutirents? you top or plants? or supercrop them? you do any LST'ing? what about keeping an even band of PPM's when you feed? or even stop PH drift, do you worry about PH when you water or in your soil? do you amend you soil? (I use H20 and soil)

none of these things are in nature.. i mean nature doesn't put c02 ppm's at 1500, I do. Nature doesn't chelate it's nutrients, I do..

but some how leaves are off limits? you fuck with every other part of the grow but leaves?

it seems inconsistant


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## Uncle Ben (May 18, 2012)

cerberus said:


> normally i don't reply to UB because it's always a hostile reply BUT I un-ignored you because this thread has been so amusing..
> 
> @UB you grow with C02? or chelated nutirents? you top or plants? or supercrop them? you do any LST'ing? what about keeping an even band of PPM's when you feed? or even stop PH drift, do you worry about PH when you water or in your soil? do you amend you soil? (I use H20 and soil)
> 
> ...


When growing ANY kind of plant material, I mimic the specie's natural environment as close as I can. A plant family has been programmed to certain light values, temps, water, salts, etc. I'm "hostile" aka frustrated because of all the gardening forums I participate in, only the cannabis forums will find a way to fuck up a weed. For example, local commercial peach growers would laugh at me if I advised them to pick off all lower leaves so that the fruit found at the lower levels can have more light.

Most of you guys don't have clue when it comes to botany, to natural plant processes, so you come up with some kind of crap thinking you're Joe Kewl. You're not. Botany and natural plant processes can not nor will not be reinvented by a bunch of dopers. Sorry. You're just playing a fool by picking off the highly efficient photon collector that God placed on our herb. It's laughable. When a plant is reading to discard an unproductive leaf, it will do so using an internal CO2 flag. Keep your grubby little hands off healthy, green fan leaves.

Also, this subject keeps coming up again and again because some noob is too damn lazy to lurk and do a simple and fast search. Try Lollipopping, another stupid cannabis noobie drill.

Even the title of this thread is laughable and says it all. If you post - *Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???* then it suggests you don't belong in a camp of growing anything because you don't know what makes a plant tick.

'no' I don't worry about pH within a couple of points regarding my soil or water. CO2 injection is a waste of my time....I consider it worthless and another gimmick Joe Kewl is concentrating on when they should be taking the time researching plant processes and what makes a plant tick. I don't "supercrop" nothing....another cute little name for another silly drill. I "supercrop" by growing naturally (and retaining healthy, green fan leaves until harvest) using conventional gardening methods that have been honed for decades by nurserymen, farmers and other horticulturists. No, I don't do LST (another silly misnomer as topping does not cause plant stress, but LST'ing and noobs do LOL), and in general, I don't fuck with my plants. I let them grow naturally and I NEVER fail. Once in a while I do play with root pruning products latest being RootMaker. 

Having said that, put me back on Ignore and stay ignorant and within your lame cannabis forum Comfort Zone.

Uncle Ben


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## cerberus (May 18, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> When growing ANY kind of plant material, I mimic the specie's natural environment as close as I can. A plant family has been programmed to certain light values, temps, water, salts, etc. I'm "hostile" aka frustrated because of all the gardening forums I participate in, only the cannabis forums will find a way to fuck up a weed. For example, local commercial peach growers would laugh at me if I advised them to pick off all lower leaves so that the fruit found at the lower levels can have more light.
> 
> Most of you guys don't have clue when it comes to botany, to natural plant processes, so you come up with some kind of crap thinking you're Joe Kewl. You're not. Botany and natural plant processes can not nor will not be reinvented by a bunch of dopers. Sorry. You're just playing a fool by picking off the highly efficient photon collector that God placed on our herb. It's laughable. When a plant is reading to discard an unproductive leaf, it will do so using an internal CO2 flag. Keep your grubby little hands off healthy, green fan leaves.
> 
> ...


this is odd since there is a pretty thorough thread thats "topping with UB" or something. where you teach people how to top for multiple heads on your plants. its a pretty informative thread, when its not all firey and flamed up.. :/
you do care about ph to some degree, you have acknowledged..
C02 injection? its a gas that plants use to for the photosynth process, i don't know if injection is the proper term.. and it's pretty standard garb for commercial greenhouses.. i know you know that.. 

my point is you DO fuck with the plants, thats how you grow them healthier and stronger than they would in nature wildly. i don't see how this is a debate really..
I mean shit, i bet you use tomato cages in your backyard garden! but no one says, cages aren't natural, no one yells "leave those stalks free!".. :/

EVEN PEACH GROWERS CULTIVATE IN AN UNNATURAL WAY... sheesh your own example, we could go through and find process they they use to enhance growth capabilities...
you don't LST? you don't tie branches back a little? spread them apart for light?

man, your the one saying don't prune, don't LST, don't co2 enhance, don't defoiliate to promote good airflow around the stalk, and I'M the one staying in a comfort zone..

and i think your hostile/frustrated because your a bitter man, that lives in an angry world. and i will continue ignoring you, because although you are informed, it's not worth my energy to go back and forth with you.

peace man


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## bgoodgrow (May 18, 2012)

Wheew glad I didn't get in any ones way on this thread!!


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## squarefodder (May 18, 2012)

@ Cerberus, I understand your point of environmental controls. There is no doubt that these controls help the plant grow healthier. If you look at the methods of our controlled environments you will see that they are helping the plant grow stronger/faster/ and produce more by enhancing their abilities.We give them lights, Mylar, soil, ph meters, humidity control, Nutrients, lst, supercrop, UB top, on and on. They all play a specific role, to improve and control growth!!! The new growth allows the plant to spread its surface area out and catch more rays for photosynthesis. WE the gardeners get play with that new growth to achieve MAX photosynthesis and MAX yield. The plant will respond to our controls with growth, Don't cut that growth away before the plant has decided if its producing or not. 

The plant is programmed to discard leaves when necessary just as we are programmed to do our bodily functions when necessary.


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## oHsiN666 (May 18, 2012)

omg!!! Uncle Ben!!! lurking on MY thread?? so glad i got your attention. and just to specify. the leafs are dying and falling off on the bottom right now. maybe lack of air flow, maybe, and just maybe, because there is not enough light penetrating my canopy. a mistake i made by overcrowding. live and learn. so, my observation is if they are dying off pull them before they suck and energy from bud production. is this true or un true? as squarefodder pointed out. the leafs are falling off. obviously i have an overcrowding issue. light is not penetrating low. it could be both air flow on the bottom is poor and light is poor. i possibly could have stripped more of the bottom growth. but it seems like the plants that DIDN'T get pruned on the bottoms have way fatter buds. maybe its because where they are in the garden and its more about light absorption. i may have other factors to think about. but this is very enlightening to me. now that i have a little bit more space i think i will do a 50/50 grow one where i prune like a mad man and one where i dont at all! and very the differences between them and make my own analyse. and i think that growing outdoors is hard to even compare to growing indoors. that just my opinion im sure... but the artificial elements versus Mother Nature . not even open for debate in my book. not every region grows perfect outdoors. but the ones that do...OH BOY!!!!

**EDIT** wow UB, you come off like an old asshole. maybe i need to re-read your post but you dont know everyones situation. its funny how every time me, not a firrst time grower, but a grower who is trying to improve his skills with every grow asks a question and all of a sudden im a no0b? seriously man, are you calling me a no0b because i asked this question? or just a generalization of all growers asking this question? you can be helpful, and an asshole. try not to mix the two up, okay?!


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## t2kallday (May 18, 2012)

cant we all just get along and just leave the plant alone! LEAVE THE LEAVES ON THE PLANT,SHE WILL TAKE THE NUTRIENTS NATURALLY FROM THE LEAF AND DROP THEM OFF.If they are in the way then us a twist tie or something.Does the cannabis plant cut its leaves off in nature when they are in the way?


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## cerberus (May 18, 2012)

squarefodder said:


> @ Cerberus, I understand your point of environmental controls. There is no doubt that these controls help the plant grow healthier. If you look at the methods of our controlled environments you will see that they are helping the plant grow stronger/faster/ and produce more by enhancing their abilities.We give them lights, Mylar, soil, ph meters, humidity control, Nutrients, lst, supercrop, UB top, on and on. They all play a specific role, to improve and control growth!!! The new growth allows the plant to spread its surface area out and catch more rays for photosynthesis. WE the gardeners get play with that new growth to achieve MAX photosynthesis and MAX yield. The plant will respond to our controls with growth, Don't cut that growth away before the plant has decided if its producing or not.
> 
> The plant is programmed to discard leaves when necessary just as we are programmed to do our bodily functions when necessary.


See here is a general disscusion right. and i see what you are saying. Maybe what we have is a miscommunication on removal of fan leaves.

here is a pic of a room I had just removed all the detremental fan leaves. As you can see, it's hydro, i have tomato cages to seperate and support branches and so forth.. 



I am not talking eve leaf right? I am just talking about the ones that grow into other branches, or fold into flower sites, maybe the ones the grow into the stalk of the plant.. 

Do you rim branches? take small branches off in the beginning of flower to direct energy to the larger flower sites? (I hope so  )

as the gardener i decide what is best for the plant. its just my job to make good descisions.. if i take to much, a failed. converse if i don't clean enough, i hve failed.. failed to reach full potential..



sorry for how this must read.. i just burnt a 3g blunt to the dome.. its been a rough day in real life world...
lol

peace man


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## squarefodder (May 18, 2012)

cerberus said:


> See here is a general disscusion right. and i see what you are saying. Maybe what we have is a miscommunication on removal of fan leaves.
> 
> here is a pic of a room I had just removed all the detremental fan leaves. As you can see, it's hydro, i have tomato cages to seperate and support branches and so forth..
> 
> ...


That looks like a very nice grow [FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]*You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice *[/FONT]

I let my plants eat all the nutes out of the leaf before discarding it. I figure that there is 50 cents worth of fox farms in each leaf and who knows how much in electricity LOL gotta get as much energy into the plant as posible!! . It works for me and what your doing works for you. Other peoples millage may vary. 

I am high


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## cerberus (May 18, 2012)

squarefodder said:


> That looks like a very nice grow *You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice *
> 
> I let my plants eat all the nutes out of the leaf before discarding it. I figure that there is 50 cents worth of fox farms in each leaf and who knows how much in electricity LOL gotta get as much energy into the plant as posible!! . It works for me and what your doing works for you. Other peoples millage may vary.
> 
> I am high


right on man. and thats the point. you have different genetics then i do, different feed, different growth designs (tomato cage vs bamboo stick). my whole side to this disscusion is that, one size fits all answers generally are not correct. some grow methods require leaf removal. On the other hand, my TLO garden almost never gets a leaf taken, there is no need for it in there..


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## Uncle Ben (May 18, 2012)

This discussion was held at one of the first cannabis forums site which I modded solely between me and others 12 years ago. I pulled up this archive which my friend "Thunderbunny" summed up well during the discussion. Get the book if you want the facts. 

*In his book "Marijuana Botany" Robert Connell Clarke states that:

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug cannabis cultivation.

He states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) Large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed,

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the fan leaves during the long non-inductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the non-inductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering,

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind leafing have any validity. 

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. They do create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant). He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

He goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity.

This book has served me very well in my 12+ years of growing--I would have to side with RC on this one--those fan leaves are there for a reason--they don't grow just for show--leave them on there and let that plant grow naturally

Good Luck,
Thunderbunny*


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## dvs1038 (May 19, 2012)

That's it you better make like a Tree and get the hell outta here!!!! Oops I meant Leaf


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2012)

cerberus said:


> here is a pic of a room I had just removed all the detremental fan leaves. As you can see, it's hydro, i have tomato cages to seperate and support branches and so forth..


And just how detrimental are they?

I'll repeat my question which you dodged -


Uncle Ben said:


> Being in the camp that leaves all leaves on, and leaving it up to mother nature to do her thing, would some of you botanical genius's tell me how leaving a fan leaf alone hurts the plant's production?





> take small branches off in the beginning of flower to direct energy to the larger flower sites? (I hope so  )


Would this be cosmic or alien energy?



> as the gardener i decide what is best for the plant. its just my job to make good descisions.. if i take to much, a failed. converse if i don't clean enough, i hve failed.. failed to reach full potential..


Uh oh....Houston, I think we have a problem here. It's all about photosynthesis. What's this "energy" stuff everyone keeps throwing around?


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## HeyWood Jablowme (May 19, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And just how detrimental are they?
> 
> I'll repeat my question which you dodged -
> 
> ...


 Glad you are still teaching people the proper ways to grow. IF some people would drop there ego's and just pay attention, they might learn something. Remember fdd's comment on this subject

STUPID NATURE, PUT ALL THESE FAN LEAVES IN THE WAY!!!!


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## cerberus (May 19, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And just how detrimental are they?
> 
> I'll repeat my question which you dodged -
> 
> ...



really? what do you think photosyntheses is for? what does the chlorophyl do with the sunlight? it converts the suns ENERGY to ENERGY the plant can use. when plants consume organic food (lets keep it natural), its through micro's that converted mineral elements (a raw form of energy) into a form the plants can digest..

come on man, your smarter than that. now your just angry and looking for a fight but in the proccess your making claims i know you know are false..


i mean whats all that topping with UB about?


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## Uncle Ben (May 19, 2012)

cerberus said:


> really? what do you think photosyntheses is for? what does the chlorophyl do with the sunlight? it converts the suns ENERGY to ENERGY the plant can use. when plants consume organic food (lets keep it natural), its through micro's that converted mineral elements (a raw form of energy) into a form the plants can digest..
> 
> come on man, your smarter than that. now your just angry and looking for a fight but in the proccess your making claims i know you know are false..
> 
> ...


You're spinning. When I cut above a node, I get double to quadruple the foliar output. Try it sometime. Has nothing to do with this discussion. Again, what is the ill effect to the plant by leaving on a fan leaf? That's right, there is no "detriment".

"Energy", what a loose word around these parts. Only the sun has "energy", in the form of photons. The plant takes that solar energy and thru the process of photosynthesis in the chloroplasts produces simple and complex carbohydrates which in turn gets converted into cellulose, proteins, hormones, amino acids, enzymes, etc. that the plant uses for cell division and elongation. 

I'll tell you what's natural, a box of fertilizer in the form of mineral salts and a pair of Felco #2's (hand pruners). Speaking of loose words, touchy feely stuff, "organic". "Natural"....90% a scam. If it weren't for the chemicals initially or eventually contained in "organic" plant foods, it would be useless. 

Uncle Ben


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## cerberus (May 19, 2012)

i'll skip over the semantics debate of energy.. IT's hard though..

hand pruners? to take branches off? So my point is this; every grow operation will have it's own requirements. wether it be environmental control or plant management; for example you manage your plants top nodal output but cutting the nod. which makes nodes at even elevation, which in turn sends the message to the plants to direct its growth hormones (energy/efforts) to those heads equally. it's similar to supercroppng, which is the same thing pine tree farmers do, to farm straight polls. So to answer your question (again) and to finish making my point. the determent (in my grow) is the loss of air movement around the stoma of the plant, the vigorous growth of my plants causes (mostly only in indica/afganica varieties) leafs to grow malformed and into flower sites, and finally mold prevention, again with the shorter stouter indica's (which are more mold prone) the lack of air flow from an untrimmed bush promotes stagnate water/air (leaves laying on top of each other build a water barrier between them from their sweating)..

and let me tell you whats natural, not a box of fertilizers and salts.. jesus christ.. but a true living organic soil, maybe you should check out TheRev.. AACT's, a proper bio-devers living sphere in your living soil. not chelated nutirents. I have three rooms only one of which is hydro, and not be accident that is the only room i need to de-leaf in. My TLO (true living Organics) rooms don't get that same treatment, they don't need it.. 

:/

I don't know how many times I can answer your question man.. i hope this works for you..


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## squarefodder (May 19, 2012)

Plants are meant to live outside not inside. We cultivate our strains under specific variables (inside/outside) that vary from Gardener to Gardener. Cerberus is correct that one size does not fit all. However its hard for me to agree that trimming healthy fan leaves is a good idea or that they block light to the bud.

is the bud part of the plant? yes.
is the bud a separate plant that needs its own root system and leaves? no. its a flower produced by said plant.

Therefore keeping the fan leaf on the plant can do no harm to the plant nor its flowers. They are both the same plant. 

The inverse can not have the same outcome. 
FACT: Removing that healthy leaf "blocking the bud" WILL remove nutrients from the plant. Therefore removing available nutrients from the flower that the plant is producing. 

Removing diseased leaves from the bottom of the plant because your concerned about mold buildup is really another topic.


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## cerberus (May 19, 2012)

I can see your point and concern. 

my thought/opinion is, well, obviously i disagree, lol, Do you remove branches early into flower or late veg? say the secondary branches. the real little ones that pop up right at the first 1.5 week point after flipping 12/12? I ask because, I do. I believe the pic shows i don't subscribe to lollipopping but i do trim branches that i know will only produce flowers i will likely discard (make into hash) at the end of the process. These are healthy parts of the plant, where I decided their final results did not warrant the plants efforts, I remove the limbs to allow the finite resources of the roots system to dedicate it's "energy"/efforts to the remaining flower sites. This is another situation than leaves but i believe it serves as a good juxtapose to your "keeping the fan leaf on the plant can do no harm.." concept. Although it may not cause it harm, my job isn't to stop harm but to encourage "overgrowth". not adding co2 won't cause it harm but adding it certainly can help.. i believe the blocked fan leaves fall in this same catagory. Although leaving them all on will cause no harm, proper selection and removal will promote better results.

different strokes for different folks.


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## squarefodder (May 19, 2012)

cerberus said:


> I can see your point and concern.
> 
> my thought/opinion is, well, obviously i disagree, lol, Do you remove branches early into flower or late veg? say the secondary branches. the real little ones that pop up right at the first 1.5 week point after flipping 12/12? I ask because, I do. I believe the pic shows i don't subscribe to lollipopping but i do trim branches that i know will only produce flowers i will likely discard (make into hash) at the end of the process. These are healthy parts of the plant, where I decided their final results did not warrant the plants efforts, I remove the limbs to allow the finite resources of the roots system to dedicate it's "energy"/efforts to the remaining flower sites. This is another situation than leaves but i believe it serves as a good juxtapose to your "keeping the fan leaf on the plant can do no harm.." concept. Although it may not cause it harm, my job isn't to stop harm but to encourage "overgrowth". not adding co2 won't cause it harm but adding it certainly can help.. i believe the blocked fan leaves fall in this same catagory. Although leaving them all on will cause no harm, proper selection and removal will promote better results.
> 
> different strokes for different folks.


I guess what we have here is the same type of discussion that tomato growers have. They debate over pinching "suckers", some swear by it other swear against it lol. 

I don't cut leaves and do fine. Growers like Cerberus do cut leaves and do well too. 

I have respect for all styles of growing. Do what fits your life style and don't look back


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## REALSTYLES (May 19, 2012)

Question? what do you do with the bottom branches with the shitty buds? J/K What I'm really trying to say is you can leave the bottom stuff but you end up throwing it in the trash anyway. As for removing leaves unnecessarily is a no no.


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## t2kallday (May 19, 2012)

I say just leave the plant alone completely, and just use the bottom stuff for hash.I always wondered if the plant actually focuses energy toward the buds receiving light, or if it focuses its energy on healing all the branches we cut off! I understand taking dead leaves and little stuff blocking airflow, but why hack thick branches (that would produce a decent nug, with a lot of thc)just because its not receiving direct light. By leaving the branch grow, wouldnt it be beneficial to the rest of the plant by reducing stress? In turn letting the plant focus all its energy into flower and thc production, instead of having to repair itself?


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## SOGfarmer (May 20, 2012)

This is a topic that the masses will never agree on, that's ok. IMO if you are "trying" to keep smaller plants and growig sog, you should definately trim the fan leaves. If you are growing larger plants, and you want multiple colas, well I still dont thinking pruning most of the fan leaves is a bad thing lol, check this thread out. It is a grow journal on another site, and the grower trims half of his crop and does not trim the other half, he basically tests the arguement for us. Well as you can see, actually ya I'll let you read it. Start from page one it's a solid journal, but on the page that I posted here he supplies pictures for you and even states himself that the plants that had their fan leaves removed are clearly not showing any signs of less bud production. At the end he compares the final harvests and you can see the results for yourself...

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/138874-come-sog-me-112-plant-2-liter-hempy-sog-11.html

*I understand that this does not prove anything. I mean this is one test on one strain in one environment by one man, or woman. Who knows maybe this strain they used grows bigger without fan leaves and others do not, or maybe rmoving fan leaves does not reduce the overall size and or quality of the plant, tough question.


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2012)

REALSTYLES said:


> Question? what do you do with the bottom branches with the shitty buds? J/K What I'm really trying to say is you can leave the bottom stuff but you end up throwing it in the trash anyway. As for removing leaves unnecessarily is a no no.


You harvest the fat colas and put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower part. Course you have to have leaves to do that. Guess I need to remind folks what drives production - it's leaves.

I think for 90% of those who are in the camp of removing leaves it's a cover up for their lack of horticultural skills - it's not an issue of purposely removing them. Due to their practices they can't/don't retain large fan leaves in a healthy state until harvest so they do this sour grapes thing - "oh well, didn't need them anyway". 

My harvest photo avatar says it all. If I lost any fan leaves (and I don't remember losing any contrary to forum paradigm) it was just a few. That cola was rock solid bud, 6" across and about 16" tall. Note the heavy bud production at the lower levels!



UB


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## REALSTYLES (May 20, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You harvest the fat colas and put the plant back under the lights to bulk up the lower part. Course you have to have leaves to do that. Guess I need to remind folks what drives production - it's leaves.
> 
> I think for 90% of those who are in the camp of removing leaves it's a cover up for their lack of horticultural skills - it's not an issue of purposely removing them. Due to their practices they can't/don't retain large fan leaves in a healthy state until harvest so they do this sour grapes thing - "oh well, didn't need them anyway".
> 
> ...


That plant is not bushy so the light goes thru. Plus how much light was used? Great looking buds though. But some plants have heavy foliage like this one


so leaving the bottom leaves will help my production? The leaves that don't get any light.


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## REALSTYLES (May 20, 2012)

you can't see through that plant but can see through yours take in mind they're different genetics so the plant you have doesn't need the bottom leaves removed. Picture say's it all.


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## HeyWood Jablowme (May 20, 2012)

I have always followed UB's theory with great results, I have a couple plants ready for the switch, I'm going to defoliate one of them and I'm going to see for myself if there is any difference. Stay tuned, i'll post updates.


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## ANC (May 20, 2012)

cerberus said:


> really? what do you think photosyntheses is for? what does the chlorophyl do with the sunlight? it converts the suns ENERGY to ENERGY the plant can use. when plants consume organic food (lets keep it natural), its through micro's that converted mineral elements (a raw form of energy) into a form the plants can digest...


Plants don't consume food/fertiliser (organic or otherwise). They make their own. with the energy of light in the presence of the right catalysts they will absorb the needed nutrients to make the food they want from the air and their roots. You can feed that plant till you are blue, if it aint photosynthesising, it ain't useing none of it.

I would have no problem with loosing a leaf with an insect problem etc...


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## oHsiN666 (May 20, 2012)

so let me ask.... if the leafs, bottom leafs ONLY!!! get no light and turn yellow i should leave them on til they fall off on there own? does lack of air circulation cause bottom leafs to welt? i think everyone is having their own discussions now and everyone has their own rebuttals to the debate. i for one will just do a trial and error grow here and there and learn for myself. plus i dont many are taking in the facts that outside growing and indoor growing have many factors that differentiate the 2. its apples and oranges to me. artificial man made light will never surpass what Mother Nature can procure. and that said i do not see inside growing anything the same as outdoor growing. especially where i live. 120 degrees mid summer, no thanks. ill pass on that one. i guess if it didn't get so hot the lack of frost and below freezing temps make it an okay place to grow possibly an Autoflowering strain in the spring or fall. but i wont be taking my chances with this miserable weather outside anytime soon. its so hot here in the summer if practically fucks up indoor growing. off topic a little, but hey lets all agree to disagree. and UB, you never answered my question!!!! see what i mean as this hole thread seems like 6 people having 3 different conversations. anyways. energy production, light-solar or artificial can not have any benefits it it isn't even hitting the plant. am i right? whats the point of arguing over something when there is sooooooooo many factors involved. obviously 1 method works for 1 grower, may not have the same effect for another grower. based off strain, room conditions, inside or outside regional concerns. lets just argue on strain specific debates. 2 growers work the same strain, same grow conditions and methods. then if you 2 have different outcomes squash it out and find out why. instead of wasting energy debating stupid shit. i doubt we will ever all be able to try each others harvests to make actual consumption tests. agreed? i dont even think people are reading my posts so fuck it!


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## ANC (May 20, 2012)

Bottom leaves tend to be older leaves. Some nutrients are mobile, i.e. the plant can extract them from parts that are old and supply them to new growth as needed. Picking the leaves off, denies the plant the chance to use its own reserves to make up for nutrient deficiancy.

We have similar summer temps and I would also not think of indoor growing then, our weed is reasonably low cost, and electricity pretty high. Hooking up an ac just pushes all sums straight into the red.


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## oHsiN666 (May 20, 2012)

oh dont get me wrong i DO grow in the summer. the patients i know would hate me if i didn't since not many can produce on the same level as me (not around here...or so my company/friends think). i think i have lots to learn still. a portable a/c is used and we actually live in a neighborhood where they base your electrical usage off what others in the neighborhood use. before they started this program i still used a lot of electricity. and there has not been any fluctuations because of the progression i have taken with upgrading. but with adding 2x1000w lights (and still need a portable a/c in the veg room to replace my a/c in the flower room), my electrical bill was double last summer with only 1x1000w light. the new program is def working to my advantage!! and just to let you know where im at roughly, last summer my electric was a tad under $400/month. im just at half that now!! so, no concern for me. i just lucked out. and even if my bill was $500 in the middle of the summer, i could still justify it off oil production alone could keep my electrical concerns at bay. i bet there is a way you could rock a grow in the summer, however you may have to dial back some watts or simply adding the portable a/c. but i have no info on your set up or region. however, you seem educated enough to be able to figure something out. is it a matter of not wanting to? or not wanting to use the extra electric? is the heat that big of a factor in your situation? i know in the fall thru spring i can run 2x1000 lights pretty efficiently. up til it starts breaking 100 degrees. this isnt my first summer grow, however it is my first summer grow in the new room., new tent and added watts. and ah man do i have to do some dialing in. it hasnt cracked 81 inside the tent, but im only running 2x600w atm. im seriously debating getting a light mover and doing a smaller yielding grow in the summer. i suppose it will take me years to get adjusted to the conditions here and with my luck as soon as dial everything in, my ass will pick up and move back up north (up north in my state, not the pacific northwest).


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## ANC (May 20, 2012)

Doing my first indoors now, have only done summer grows up till now, and outdoors.
Only have 400W, Well actualy I have 3 of those ballasts that I got for free as well as a bunch of bulbs.
Appart from one piece of ducting and a blower fan, I have everything needed to get to linghts on some time morrow.
Only have to instal timer and complete the faux wall/door. Then I can start putting plants under the big light.

So far the hydro thing is less effort than outdoors, in sumer I need to water 3 times a day at the peak of the season.


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## WestCoastMaster (May 20, 2012)

They are sugar factories bro! How the hell is your plant going to Photosynthesize and convert your nutrients into usable energy if you remove them?


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## oHsiN666 (May 20, 2012)

^your a day late and a dollar short.


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## squarefodder (May 20, 2012)

[video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]


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## Uncle Ben (May 20, 2012)

squarefodder said:


> [video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]


Jorge's the man.


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## lighting (May 20, 2012)

That;s a know brainer leave your leafs on trim lower popcorn buds thus helping plant put its energy to the top buds add more light if you think you need but don't start clipping fan leafs lol


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## HeyWood Jablowme (May 21, 2012)

as much as it goes against everything I know, I tried this.
My victim is bullrider, I've included pics of a bullrider I just finished, trimmed and hung to dry. I will get total weight when fully dried.
also included is pics of the victim, pre trim and post trim, she went into the flower room tonight for the first time. stay tuned for updates


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## BUdbuddysmile (May 21, 2012)

This has probably already been stated 100 times, but I only remove damaged or dead leaves completely. As far as anything else, I trim the tips off some of my leaves if I feel they are blocking buds or way over crowded. I remove damaged leaves because I would rather have the plant spend its energy on flower and new growth, rather than repairing damaged leaves. With that said, if your removing to many leaves, especially in flower, that too will stress your plant, and take away energy from your buds. I dunno, I'm no expert, but that makes sense to me.


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## t2kallday (May 22, 2012)

BUdbuddysmile said:


> This has probably already been stated 100 times, but I only remove damaged or dead leaves completely. As far as anything else, I trim the tips off some of my leaves if I feel they are blocking buds or way over crowded. I remove damaged leaves because I would rather have the plant spend its energy on flower and new growth, rather than repairing damaged leaves. With that said, if your removing to many leaves, especially in flower, that too will stress your plant, and take away energy from your buds. I dunno, I'm no expert, but that makes sense to me.


How does anyone really know where the plant diverts its energy. I try to look at a plant like me. If I get a headache cuz im dehydrated i cant perform,and grow right? Same goes for a plant.If I injure myself my body goes into repair mode resulting a stressful state in turn producing negative side effects in my behavior right?. Same as a plant or any living thing.With a healthy plant No leaves should fall off even if recieving no light. The Leaves are guides in determining plant health, they recieve light resulting in photosynthesis, they provide stored food and energy for the plant,and the list goes on, SO LEAVE LEAVES ALONE! I NEVER take leaves off especially if they are in the way of o budsite, just supercrop the leafstem(knuckle or bend leaf. will rise back up in a day) use a twistie, cut a portion off (at last resort )but dont take the plants solar panels away! What do solar panels do?PRODUCE ENERGY!


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## BUdbuddysmile (May 24, 2012)

*t2kallday- I like it. Makes sense to me.*


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## ANC (May 24, 2012)

A leaf going yellow or spotty due to nutrient problems is not a damaged leaf, and the plant is not spening energy trying to heal it.... if anything is actualy happening, the plant is busy transporting all the mobile nutrients from older growth to where it is more needed... I wouldn't realy pulll a leaf off unless it virtualy comes off by itself when I touch it.


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## alotapot (May 24, 2012)

I never pull my fans... if they have an issue and fall off so be it. The plant needs all the energy it can get .

alp


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## oHsiN666 (May 25, 2012)

im over it...


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## Uncle Ben (May 26, 2012)

swishsweet said:


> some of the light actually passes through the leaf, save the leaves!


Yep, Red and Far Red.

You can tell who are the seasoned horticulturists that understand what makes a plant tick, and those who aren't/don't.

Like he said in that video, "growing is based on science, not hearsay."


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## bmaster1964 (May 26, 2012)

I have to agree with ub that the fan leaves are important to keep on your plant. I used to take off the fanleaves, thinking that the bud sites need light to grow. They really don't. In fact I found that leaving them on actually created fuller buds. 

Now having said that, I grow LA confidential, and the breeders at DNA Genetics actually advise you to remove fan leaves later on in flower to allow light to reach the lower buds. It's hard to argue with these guys about their own strain.

I did a side by side experiment on two plants that were lst'd and kept quite low profile. I left all the fan leaves on during the entire grow. I had bud growing right down literally into the perlite. Now,I removed the fan leaves on one LAC one week before harvest, and left the other one alone. I found that the control plant ended up with great dense purple buds on top and light green nugs below the canopy. the other plant ended up with the same size nugs, but these buds were denser and more finished than the control plant.

The conclusion I reached is that, the fan leaves are necessary for your plants overall health and serve a very important function in bud development as energy source. 

Once the buds have fully developed,ie to the point that no more pistols are produced and have mostly died back, the resin glands are mature, then I feel the fanleaves have served their purpose and can be removed to allow the lower buds a chance to finish, without the need to multi harvest the same plant, when I could be revolving another plant into the flower room.

In the end, the plant with the fanleaves removed, resulted in higher yield because the lower buds were able to finish, thus being denser.

My two cents....

Your thoughts?


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## oHsiN666 (May 27, 2012)

^that is what i am doing. 

im so glad ppl keep saying the same shit over and over and over and over again. you can clearly see who never finished high school and who has poor reading skills.


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## t2kallday (May 28, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> ^that is what i am doing.
> 
> im so glad ppl keep saying the same shit over and over and over and over again. you can clearly see who never finished high school and who has poor reading skills.


bro! your the one who started this thread! dont look at it or delete it if you cant handle others opinions!


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## oHsiN666 (May 29, 2012)

i dont think you undertand what i mean. so dont worry about it. its staying. people just keep repeating them selfs, kinda annoying people cant read all 14 pages before posting there opinion. know what i mean now?? no worries if not. dont take offence if you didnt finish high school... dont get me wrong im glad people have opinions, but if you are going to post at least see who has said what you have possibly already said. people don't need to read the same thing over and over. new info is informative. but at this point this topic is just a debate. not much more info can be provided. as UB said, this info is all over the place. i just like to stay updated and hate digging for old info. well, not old. just old posts. people usually change their opinions once they gain more skill.


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## Growman3001 (May 31, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> i dont think you undertand what i mean. so dont worry about it. its staying. people just keep repeating them selfs, kinda annoying people cant read all 14 pages before posting there opinion. know what i mean now?? no worries if not. dont take offence if you didnt finish high school... dont get me wrong im glad people have opinions, but if you are going to post at least see who has said what you have possibly already said. people don't need to read the same thing over and over. new info is informative. but at this point this topic is just a debate. not much more info can be provided. as UB said, this info is all over the place. i just like to stay updated and hate digging for old info. well, not old. just old posts. people usually change their opinions once they gain more skill.


True, I used to think Miracle Grow was just fine for cannabis. After a lil more experience, I prefer to stay away from the stuff...


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## squarefodder (May 31, 2012)

Let's kill it and beat it.....


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## hydrosoil78 (Jun 1, 2012)

I have found some ripe nugs beneath leaves before, maybe not the fattest. when it's ripe enough, I start to try a few lower nugs , I only cut off leaves if they have insect pests or snail or slug damage outdoors. This idea is worth experimenting with but ripeness is more important for potency to prevent headaches for me. 
cutting leaves off the idea is light will make the lower buds bigger or maybe up top also


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## TheDuder (Jun 1, 2012)

People repeat themselves because there is only one answer, and you don't seem satisfied with it. Degrading others will get your thread nowhere. You could always do an experiment yourself to ease your mind. You talk much of the lack of education found in others; yet, you create more than a dozen pages for a question your youthful science teacher likely explained. Marijuana is not unique in its usage of leaves. Do some research yourself for the answers you seek. If you are looking for definitive fact, you are in the wrong place. 

Consider, you belittle others for a lack of knowledge; but, it is you asking all the questions from your ignorance. I know exactly the answer you'd like to hear, but why should I share my years of research and experience with an asshole?

-Dude


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## HeyWood Jablowme (Jun 1, 2012)

so it has been almost 2 weeks since I violated my plant,of coarse, it has a lot of new growth, My question for the people who do this is, Do you remove the new growth? or leave it.Pun intended.
pics coming.


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## SOGfarmer (Jun 1, 2012)

Ill repost my first post, but this guy did the experiment and then tells you the yields he got from both methods. Read it!



SOGfarmer said:


> This is a topic that the masses will never agree on, that's ok. IMO if you are "trying" to keep smaller plants and growig sog, you should definately trim the fan leaves. If you are growing larger plants, and you want multiple colas, well I still dont thinking pruning most of the fan leaves is a bad thing lol, check this thread out. It is a grow journal on another site, and the grower trims half of his crop and does not trim the other half, he basically tests the arguement for us. Well as you can see, actually ya I'll let you read it. Start from page one it's a solid journal, but on the page that I posted here he supplies pictures for you and even states himself that the plants that had their fan leaves removed are clearly not showing any signs of less bud production. At the end he compares the final harvests and you can see the results for yourself...
> 
> http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/138874-come-sog-me-112-plant-2-liter-hempy-sog-11.html
> 
> *I understand that this does not prove anything. I mean this is one test on one strain in one environment by one man, or woman. Who knows maybe this strain they used grows bigger without fan leaves and others do not, or maybe rmoving fan leaves does not reduce the overall size and or quality of the plant, tough question.


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## HeyWood Jablowme (Jun 2, 2012)

SOGfarmer said:


> Ill repost my first post, but this guy did the experiment and then tells you the yields he got from both methods. Read it!


cool, thanks, I found the info i was looking for.


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## gagekko (Jun 2, 2012)

I think that people should grow the way that works best for them. If pulling leaves works better - pull them, if soil works better - use it, if organic is better for your growing style - so be it. Get my meaning? Lots of ways to grow - do what works best for you cause only u gotta be happy with ur results


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 3, 2012)

gagekko said:


> I think that people should grow the way that works best for them.


Fine, but you can't ignore science and that's exactly what fan leaf butchers are doing.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

leaves are basically the plants solar panels, if they're not in direct light they're not efficient but if they do get some exposure they benefit the plant. cutting off leaves isnt beneficial in most situations unless they're infected by mites, or they arent serving their purpose and getting light. removing branches towards the lower nodes redirects the energy the plant was gonna use on them, so less bud spots means less popcorn nugs and more main colas. i train for this reason, trimmin popcorn nugs just isnt worth the time. the highest point always gets more energy and nutrients, keep that in mind when training.


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## jesburger (Jun 3, 2012)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> This is why..LEAVE EM
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo


I've never seen him with his real hair and without the sunglasses! <3 jorge


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## cerberus (Jun 3, 2012)

Jorge's whole book is a copy and paste from the now defunk OG's faq section.. they guy is ok, even better than ok.. but he is know guru...


don't believe me? check it's credits they are all handles...

:/


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

cerberus said:


> Jorge's whole book is a copy and paste from the now defunk OG's faq section.. they guy is ok, even better than ok.. but he is know guru...
> 
> 
> don't believe me? check it's credits they are all handles...
> ...


how original can you really be when it comes to grow knowledge? i mean theres a good set of facts that everyone will present, some people put it differently but it all kind of means the same shit usually. i learn good shit from cervantes' videos, easy to learn and pretty interesting(i learned about compost tea through him, at least more about it, really glad i learned about it now but theres plenty of things all of them wont tell you, such as you can add roots of any plant to add microbes to your tea, or poke holes in your soil to help your plants wick out and induce new root growth by breaking endings, etc etc.).


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## cerberus (Jun 3, 2012)

and i'm not saying the OG faq thread was not great, it was. but all jorge did was compile a list of facts, he did not fact check them, other than getting the "it's true" from the forum guy he took it from (I'm sure UB will jump in he has that kind of credit in the book)..

for example, he (jorge) says photo period for veg is 18-24 hours of light, but is this fact? or science as some have asked? are there any plants in "nature" (as so many people seem to like to point out) that veg at 24hrs light? what about 18? still a shit ton.. while 'real' horticolture books say nothing of the sort.. look up gas lantern tech

point isn't the info is bad, it's just that his info is regurgitate forum gossip.. take it for the same value you take anything someone says on here..


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## crazyhazey (Jun 3, 2012)

cerberus said:


> and i'm not saying the OG faq thread was not great, it was. but all jorge did was compile a list of facts, he did not fact check them, other than getting the "it's true" from the forum guy he took it from (I'm sure UB will jump in he has that kind of credit in the book)..
> 
> for example, he (jorge) says photo period for veg is 18-24 hours of light, but is this fact? or science as some have asked? are there any plants in "nature" (as so many people seem to like to point out) that veg at 24hrs light? what about 18? still a shit ton.. while 'real' horticolture books say nothing of the sort.. look up gas lantern tech
> 
> point isn't the info is bad, it's just that his info is regurgitate forum gossip.. take it for the same value you take anything someone says on here..


well all of us gotta get our info from somewhere, although i did take cervante's word i later found out plants veg just fine under 14/10. he should fix that but growth is more vigorous during 18/6 or 24/0, but these light cycles dont occur in nature so that "fact" wasn't completely true. forums are useful, although a botany major would probably help sift out the biased facts. or just experience in the field of growing, i think any grower should also grow marigolds, mint, peppers, and other plants that like the more acidic soil, they are much like mj and help deter mites as well, the more practice the better. we treat mj like someone from mars came down and planted it, it does turn out better when well taken care of but some people end up overloving them due to all of the suggestions people put on here. its not worth losing genetics over dumb mistakes, thats why i tried growing so much other shit before i really moved up to better genetics, id suggest other peoples should give it a try before they run themselves broke trying to do hydro for their first grow or something along those lines, keep it simple. im gonna try hydro soon, but i guarantee i wont be growing weed with it for my first two tries. 

and shit ub had part in that? im sure he's aware veg is anywhere from 14 to 24 hours of light for mj.


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## cerberus (Jun 4, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> well all of us gotta get our info from somewhere, although i did take cervante's word i later found out plants veg just fine under 14/10. he should fix that but growth is more vigorous during 18/6 or 24/0..



24/0 is not god for vigor. plants cadence cycles NEED a rest period. the suggestion to run 24/0 is not only wrong its detrimental to plant health. will it kill them? of course not, but you get better node spacing, healthy plant life, stronger roots, with a dark period.. I use the gas lantern tech for my veg and they blow up.. (12on-5off-2on-5off)..


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## crazyhazey (Jun 4, 2012)

cerberus said:


> 24/0 is not god for vigor. plants cadence cycles NEED a rest period. the suggestion to run 24/0 is not only wrong its detrimental to plant health. will it kill them? of course not, but you get better node spacing, healthy plant life, stronger roots, with a dark period.. I use the gas lantern tech for my veg and they blow up.. (12on-5off-2on-5off)..


interesting, that sounds like itd herm them but i may look into this. in my experience it wont stress them, ive vegged plants under 24/0 for years and found growth to be faster than 18/6, 14/10, etc. mj is a c3 plant isnt it? i thought they dont need sleep.


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## jesburger (Jun 4, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> interesting, that sounds like itd herm them but i may look into this. in my experience it wont stress them, ive vegged plants under 24/0 for years and found growth to be faster than 18/6, 14/10, etc. mj is a c3 plant isnt it? i thought they dont need sleep.


he's proving his own point, don't believe everything you read online, if it works better for you, go for it.


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## althor (Jun 4, 2012)

I read a grow log on another site a couple of years ago where a guy took clones and ran them at 3 different light cycles.
1 clone was 18/6. 1 was 20/4. 1 was 24/0.
At the end 20/4 was most productive in quantity as well (in his opinion) quality, followed by 18/6 and 24/0 had the worst overall performance.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 4, 2012)

althor said:


> I read a grow log on another site a couple of years ago where a guy took clones and ran them at 3 different light cycles.
> 1 clone was 18/6. 1 was 20/4. 1 was 24/0.
> At the end 20/4 was most productive in quantity as well (in his opinion) quality, followed by 18/6 and 24/0 had the worst overall performance.


do you have a link to this? hopefully this experiment was valid, i mean there cant be any other independent variables besides the light time otherwise its invalid and inaccurate.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 4, 2012)

jesburger said:


> he's proving his own point, don't believe everything you read online, if it works better for you, go for it.


well nothing has really been proved to me, ive yet to see the growth compared to 24/0. i take everything with a grain of salt, and i learned much from this site but it also helped to grow other acid loving plants other than MJ, i highly suggest it to any new grower.


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## cerberus (Jun 4, 2012)

jesburger said:


> he's proving his own point, don't believe everything you read online, if it works better for you, go for it.



lol touche.

seriously if you havent heard of the 12-5.5-1-5.5 cycle (I run 2 hour gap because it's easier for my timer), you should look in to it.

look up the hash king joe P.

it's not a new technique, i didn't invent it..


much like pulling leafs that squeeze out flower growth, not my invention..

:/

peace


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## mydixiewrecked (Jun 4, 2012)

I've been thinking about this a lot. Outside, i could see needing the protection from the sun, the leaves help to cool. inside, I'm liking taking off some coverage to allow light in.
after using my par meter to measure before and after, the results are amazing. I can get the bottom of the plant into the proper P.a.r range


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## squarefodder (Jun 4, 2012)

Keep em on folks.


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## tylerh (Jun 4, 2012)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> This is why..LEAVE EM
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo


That man knows his dope.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 5, 2012)

cerberus said:


> lol touche.
> 
> seriously if you havent heard of the 12-5.5-1-5.5 cycle (I run 2 hour gap because it's easier for my timer), you should look in to it.
> 
> ...


i see your point, ill look into it thanks for the info


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 5, 2012)

cerberus said:


> and i'm not saying the OG faq thread was not great, it was. but all jorge did was compile a list of facts, he did not fact check them, other than getting the "it's true" from the forum guy he took it from (I'm sure UB will jump in he has that kind of credit in the book)..
> 
> for example, he (jorge) says photo period for veg is 18-24 hours of light, but is this fact? or science as some have asked? are there any plants in "nature" (as so many people seem to like to point out) that veg at 24hrs light? what about 18? still a shit ton.. while 'real' horticolture books say nothing of the sort.. look up gas lantern tech
> 
> point isn't the info is bad, it's just that his info is regurgitate forum gossip.. take it for the same value you take anything someone says on here..


Being a small part of that project, you are correct about the manner of collection data. Jorge contacted OG site admin as well as started a thread for member input with the idea of collecting the "best" of what OG had to offer regarding cannabis culture, cooking, hash making, etc.....anything dealing with pot and he wanted to put it all together into a concise collection. At first I was a little pissed that someone would use our hard work for personal gain without renumeration. I got over it and became pen pals with him. Hell, the photos alone are worth the price of the book. Some of the "facts" are indeed wrong, including my ditty regarding how Griffin's Spin-Out works by "turning the roots upward", but I digress.

His chapter on lighting is one of the best I've seen, and it is spot on regarding the science and application of it all. 

He's also been accused of using a pseudo name of Patton to sell under a different guise too. Don't know if that's true nor do I care. He was nice enough to send me one of the first releases free gratis, photo of autographed copy attached. Apparently the book was a huge success. He told me he was having it translated into quite a few languages.

Most of the info is correct, or damn close, and the color photos are the best of the best. If you want solid botany, horticulture without the anecdotal evidence bullshit, still can't beat Mel Frank's guide. 

Uncle Ben


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## kinetic (Jun 6, 2012)

[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT]All this debate over lighting and someone trying to state that 24 hours and 18 hours of light don't exist in nature should really look into Alaskan gardening. Those gardens are producing HUGE vegetables, like cabbage bigger than a toddler. I would put up a link but I'm sure a good know it all likes to do their own research.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 6, 2012)

kinetic said:


> All this debate over lighting and someone trying to state that 24 hours and 18 hours of light don't exist in nature should really look into Alaskan gardening. Those gardens are producing HUGE vegetables, like cabbage bigger than a toddler. I would put up a link but I'm sure a good know it all likes to do their own research.


well 24/0 doesnt exist in nature for sure, idk about 18/6, maybe 16 hours of light is possible somehow but i highly doubt it. but are they doing it under 24/0 or 18/6?


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## cerberus (Jun 7, 2012)

having been in AK many times and many different locations its not 24hr light.. at best its a dusk, and even then that is for a short period of the year.. 

for real, someone is now arguing 24/0 IS natural..

I love this thread, thanks OP


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## kinetic (Jun 7, 2012)

cerberus said:


> for real, someone is now arguing 24/0 IS natural..
> 
> I love this thread, thanks OP


Guess you have never been to Barrow, Alaska http://www.almanac.com/sun/rise/zipcode/99723/2012-07-07 http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/barrow-alaska.html oh and here's some video of the Midnight Sun in Sweden http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK9vuw3LU7I&feature=related So, while I'm not saying it's normal everywhere, having occurred annually for quiet a looong time I would say that this would lead one to the conclusion that this, while not normal per say, is in fact Naturally Happening. Feel free to play around with those links to see other varying degrees of daylight, that surpass 18/6 as well. 

Now you would have to get inventive to use those sun rays as it never really reaches above freezing there.


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 7, 2012)

It's all about phytochrome levels which drives the flowering response. Doesn't matter if it's a 14/0 or 24/0. The plant has been programmed to respond hormonally over thousand of years of evolution depending on its region of origin.


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## rocknratm (Jun 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's all about phytochrome levels which drives the flowering response. Doesn't matter if it's a 14/0 or 24/0. The plant has been programmed to respond hormonally over thousand of years of evolution depending on its region of origin.


hmmmm. So 2 plants in exact same sun conditions, with different genetic history or origin, would begin flowering at different times?


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## Uncle Ben (Jun 9, 2012)

rocknratm said:


> hmmmm. So 2 plants in exact same sun conditions, with different genetic history or origin, would begin flowering at different times?


Yes. Equatorial types (10*) are driven mainly by chronological age as opposed to northern lats (40*) which are driven mainly by phytochrome. The reference I made applies to the mutts you're buying, which is driven by phytochrome amounts.


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## Ptrickl9 (Jun 11, 2012)

I like to get the plant spread out good and wide with four colas LST'ed, then tie back the fan leaves with yarn. That way the little bud sites grow big and stinky.


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## oHsiN666 (Jun 11, 2012)

im so pist i started this fucking thread. has anyone learned anything? i haven't... im starting all over from scratch! reading 1 book and 1 book only. this internet shit is misleading. and trying to follow every jack, dick and bobs ideologies is a fucking joke! sorry, bad past couple of weeks.


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## melungeonman (Jun 11, 2012)

Check it out man! fan leaves create the sugars and strarches that are the building blocks of flower production. Even leaves from where a clone was taken could or should be left behind. Leave the leaves. even if you have to bunch them as much as possible, and tie them back. When a plant goes into flower production it's not as important to keep, these, leaves exposed to the light. You can pull the flower producing branches forward and tuck the sugar factories under, now they are just storage bins for buds, they refill themselfs from the stored nutes in the vascular system, that pulls from the deposited nutes in the soil.


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## melungeonman (Jun 11, 2012)

Wow no shit I started typing back on page one, turned into a free for all, about whether 24 hr light exist in nature.


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## melungeonman (Jun 11, 2012)

Ya all realize that was a joke???????? no luv.


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## elduece (Jun 11, 2012)

cutting leaves off, roots likewise- is akin to trimming off some of your own intestines. There are two of stunting your harvest will suffer. Extreme result would be that buds that suck -little trichs etc and or less buds. sorry dood


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## oHsiN666 (Jun 11, 2012)

i disagree about the frostyness. my shit is frosty frosty. sticky, all that shit. that did not suffer at all.


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## Sir.Ganga (Jun 11, 2012)

I think its a fine line between a good (storage) leaf and a leaf that robs energy in one form or another. Knowing which ones and when is key to not stressing the girl to much when removing. 

Lollipopping is a good example of controlled pruning that works surprisingly well.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 11, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> im so pist i started this fucking thread. has anyone learned anything? i haven't... im starting all over from scratch! reading 1 book and 1 book only. this internet shit is misleading. and trying to follow every jack, dick and bobs ideologies is a fucking joke! sorry, bad past couple of weeks.


ill tell you everything theres really to know about fan leaves and exposure, they serve 2 purposes, to photosynthesize, and also as a secondary energy source. fan leaves that are in direct sunlight serving both, others that are not are only useful when late flower comes along. more branches means energy will be more divided, basically the exposed buds arent getting all the nutes they should be. so keep as many fan leaves, but eliminate useless branches, they're only taking from the bigger, more exposed ones. training them is a good way to get exposure to all of them, i recently started training my plants to grow around the rim of the pot to do this. thats all you really gotta know about fan leaves, branches, and proper exposure.


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## rocknratm (Jun 12, 2012)

I want to jump in and try to get this on point.

I had an idea, when lollipopping why are the fan leaves taken off too? why not just take the bud sites off, leave the big fan leaves. My theory is that the fan leaves only take in energy to produce the flowers, and leaving more maximizes the light intake by the plant. But the removal of the bud sites down there means that the energy will be rediverted to the upper flowers.

idk. Ive been mulling this for a while


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## rocknratm (Jun 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yes. Equatorial types (10*) are driven mainly by chronological age as opposed to northern lats (40*) which are driven mainly by phytochrome. The reference I made applies to the mutts you're buying, which is driven by phytochrome amounts.


nice, im in the midwest its a short season. I was helping a friend with one outdoor plant, I didnt want ruderalis, so I gave him an 8 week. its cutting it close.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 12, 2012)

rocknratm said:


> I want to jump in and try to get this on point.
> 
> I had an idea, when lollipopping why are the fan leaves taken off too? why not just take the bud sites off, leave the big fan leaves. My theory is that the fan leaves only take in energy to produce the flowers, and leaving more maximizes the light intake by the plant. But the removal of the bud sites down there means that the energy will be rediverted to the upper flowers.
> 
> idk. Ive been mulling this for a while


you got it right, couldnt have said it better. keep as many leaves as you can, remove insignificant bud sites to redirect energy/nutrients.


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## mccumcumber (Jun 13, 2012)

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/chlorophyll/chlorophyll_h.htm

^What I was hoping people would look into after my first post.


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## SCUDkfa (Jun 13, 2012)

I understand both parties sides to this thread but what about trimming leaves to avoid moisture build up? My ladies a quite bushy so trimming leaves from one plant that are effecting my others makes sense to me. Heres some pics of my grow, should i continue to trim? Or risk moisture build up that creates mold and will ruin my whole crop. you guys be the judge and let me know what you think.
View attachment 2211373View attachment 2211374


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## SCUDkfa (Jun 13, 2012)

Another thing i should add is, notice my main fan leaves are all intact. Like Sir.Ganga said its the "other" leaves that are ok to trim you just have to know which ones they are.


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## dababydroman (Jun 13, 2012)

dude, you have no need to trim. believe me its not effecting your other plant to a noticeable effect. your just loosing in the end if youa ask me. look around at experiancedd peoples scrogs and stuff there rooms are packed with foilage and no probs.. just get a fan.


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## rocknratm (Jun 13, 2012)

SCUDkfa said:


> I understand both parties sides to this thread but what about trimming leaves to avoid moisture build up? My ladies a quite bushy so trimming leaves from one plant that are effecting my others makes sense to me. Heres some pics of my grow, should i continue to trim? Or risk moisture build up that creates mold and will ruin my whole crop. you guys be the judge and let me know what you think.
> View attachment 2211373View attachment 2211374



do not trim those. they will suffer


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## OldGrowAddict (Jun 13, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> im so pist i started this fucking thread. has anyone learned anything? i haven't... im starting all over from scratch! reading 1 book and 1 book only. this internet shit is misleading. and trying to follow every jack, dick and bobs ideologies is a fucking joke! sorry, bad past couple of weeks.


This says it all.
You are pissed because people have several different opinions on the internet, however you also said something like "I don't learn anything, everybody are saying the same thing over and over").

So because of these different opinions, and discussions, are "misleading" - you'll go and buy a book with only 1 (ONE) set of opinions.. that way you'll not be confused (sorry.. mislead) by conflicting opinions and discussion... you know.. crictial thinking.

Edit: Maybe I should get my morning-coffee before posting. But I'm also about to leave this place, there are better places (so I do understand your emotions, this site is not exactly full of critical thinking .


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## crazyhazey (Jun 14, 2012)

OldGrowAddict said:


> This says it all.
> You are pissed because people have several different opinions on the internet, however you also said something like "I don't learn anything, everybody are saying the same thing over and over").
> 
> So because of these different opinions, and discussions, are "misleading" - you'll go and buy a book with only 1 (ONE) set of opinions.. that way you'll not be confused (sorry.. mislead) by conflicting opinions and discussion... you know.. crictial thinking.
> ...


yes this is a forum, its quite obvious youll get some opinionated answers, i gave him as much info on fan leaves as i could, i think i covered it pretty well. you can judge a site off a few users, like any other one theres bullshit to sift through, and you have to take everything you hear with a grain of salt, best way to learn is experience. and to the guy who said leaves can cause mold, id say only if they're clashing together with some sort of surface or other leaves, other than that keep as many as possible, and if some are in the shadows train them if you can.


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## squarefodder (Jun 14, 2012)

I mean It's simple in my mind. The plant grows the leaves for a reason, and removes its nutrients when it feels it needs to. Pinching buds to promote further development of the main buds is a waste IMHO. Trim the top buds at harvest and let the plant develop it'd lower buds for a few week before trimming em. If you cut all your leaves and new bud growth you Will loose yeild.

Keep the leaves on, the only tree that should have its leaves removed is the tree that makes spaghetti........


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## PUFeNUF (Jun 14, 2012)

i always trim on day 21 and 45 of flower. i have done multiple experiments on ones that i dont trim, and ones that i do trim; and the ones i trim had quite a bit more yield.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 14, 2012)

squarefodder said:


> I mean It's simple in my mind. The plant grows the leaves for a reason, and removes its nutrients when it feels it needs to. Pinching buds to promote further development of the main buds is a waste IMHO. Trim the top buds at harvest and let the plant develop it'd lower buds for a few week before trimming em. If you cut all your leaves and new bud growth you Will loose yeild.
> 
> Keep the leaves on, the only tree that should have its leaves removed is the tree that makes spaghetti........


some people hate popcorn nugs such as myself, i train them to grow sideways or just around the rim of the pot so none of them are in the shade, leaving no purpose to stop any new branch development. if i dont wanna branch, i take it as a clone. but just like you said, keep as many leaves as you can or else yield may be jeopardized. 

i wanna tree that grows spaghetti, i think id do some companion growing so my buds would eventually taste like the dankest thing in the world, spaghetti. hahaha


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## mccumcumber (Jun 14, 2012)

My popcorn nugs go straight to the grinder to be used for butter. I don't like trimming popcorn, but I love edibles.


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## crazyhazey (Jun 14, 2012)

mccumcumber said:


> My popcorn nugs go straight to the grinder to be used for butter. I don't like trimming popcorn, but I love edibles.


i keep trim for bho, smoke the rest


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## squarefodder (Jun 16, 2012)

here is an excerpt from Jorge Cervantes book Marijuana grow basics. 



interesting


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## OldGrowAddict (Jun 17, 2012)

There are too many variables, we all understand this topic is about removing leaves ... but... When? How much? How often? What goal? There is a lot of different ways to prune during 3 months.

I guess there is no real answer to this issue, because the debate itself is not defined precisely.


But I do know ONE thing for certain, after all of my years growing (small scale indoors), I get about 1 gram/watt consistently - and that is with no cutting of leaves at ALL.

Edit: I've never tried removing fan-leaves during the plants life, so I don't know if people who remove fan-leaves get 2 gr/watt or something. At least my method works for me, and if your method works for you then keep doing it.

BTW: I know gr/watt is meaningless, I just wanted to say I'm satisfied with not removing leaves. And are people who remove fan-leaves that are happy too, at least it seems that way - so I guess it's not that a big deal.


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## t2kallday (Jun 19, 2012)

OldGrowAddict said:


> There are too many variables, we all understand this topic is about removing leaves ... but... When? How much? How often? What goal? There is a lot of different ways to prune during 3 months.
> 
> I guess there is no real answer to this issue, because the debate itself is not defined precisely.
> 
> ...


thats what im talking about man, there are a ton of ways to train leaves during three months! lazy people cut them off! check it out heres what i do. knuckle the leaf stem!I dont cut any leaves! Sometimes they snap too far but its ok if u break a few


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## oHsiN666 (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm really digging that plant TK.... Maybe I need to retain myself??


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## t2kallday (Jun 22, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> I'm really digging that plant TK.... Maybe I need to retain myself??


Thanks man! Its nine plant btw...


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## oHsiN666 (Jun 23, 2012)

Ahhhh ok. Makes more sence, lol!


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## sorethumb (Nov 8, 2012)

i loved this thread lol keef treez started defoiliating .30 plus years experience is apparently not enough .


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## stumpjumper (Nov 11, 2012)

It's pretty hilarious all these book smart know-it-alls can have example after example, testimony after testimony shoved in their face over and over and they still can't open their mind to something that goes against what they think they know lol.

Pathetic really. 

I've grown plants without trimming leaves and I've trimmed leaves. I never strip them bare and I don't trim because of a sickly plant.. When I trim I only trim what I need to expose lower nodes to direct light and it does make a difference. You can sit there and say whatever you want but based on your reply I can tell whether you've actually tried it or not.


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## oceangreen (Nov 19, 2012)

Lots of input on this thread


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## skunkd0c (Nov 19, 2012)

an old grow from a few years back, this strain wanted to have its leaves picked off
it did well 

















































https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/240168-barneys-sweet-tooth-nft-grow.html
peace


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## stumpjumper (Nov 19, 2012)

skunkd0c said:


> an old grow from a few years back, this strain wanted to have its leaves picked offit did well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Proof is in the Pudding?


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## ineverveg (Nov 19, 2012)

opinions vary!


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## Saitek (Nov 19, 2012)

> Remove large leaves one or two days before actually cutting the plants down. Or remove leaves after cutting plants.
> Harvesting large leaves early gets them out of the way and makes manicuring easier and faster.
> - Marijuana Horticultur


So it's okay to remove all large leaves a day or two before harvest for easier manicuring, since it makes no harm to the plant. But i would doubt that it could help a lot in only 2 days.


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## Huel Perkins (Nov 20, 2012)

Remove all your leaves, photosynthesis is a myth. All plants really need is electrolytes!


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## CashCrops (Nov 20, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> Remove all your leaves, photosynthesis is a myth. All plants really need is electrolytes!


Nothing beats Brawndo!


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## skunkd0c (Nov 20, 2012)

Experiment with your plants its fun!
sometimes you win sometimes you lose, if you are not an imbecile hopefully you will learn from the experience 

from my own experience defoliation does not always improve things, it is strain/pheno dependent on weather the overall yield / colas quility will improve
i tend NOT to remove leaves from pure indica/afghan types, or at least do so much more cautiously as this has resulted in distorted re-growth with some strains

for me personally defoliation is a form of canopy management, i know others think it works regardless, this in not my view

it can help to produce more bud over the whole crop of plants that are very close together 
i also tuck the leaves under with some strains rather than remove them, other strains like the sweet tooth pheno i had, do not seem to need very many leaves at all 

some plants will naturally make lots of leaves, others normally sativa dominated plants can produce colas with very few leaves, i see removing leaves from more leafy strains
as a quick fix to what could be found naturally among other pheno's of the same strain anyway 

to me it seems silly to think each plant would grow naturally indoor producing the "perfect" amount of leaves, plants indoor normally grow in an awkward shape because of the light only coming from above and not having a more balanced light spread all around them, like they would grow naturally outdoor, in the more xmas tree shape
indoor they grow top heavy because of this, forming a canopy of leaves is not helpful in my opinion , i want a canopy of colas that have no light restriction to the middle and lower nodes 
which will also form large colas with the right strain 

genetically a given plant could produce more or less leaves than its sisters, breeding can be used to produce plants that produce few leaves which is often a desirable trait 
those against experimenting seem to be saying that the plant must be left to grow naturally with the amount of leaves that it was given genetically since it must be "perfect"
to start with

is the sister plant that grows more leaves naturally better because it has more leaves ?
is the sister plant that naturally grows less leaves weaker in some way, simply because it has less leaves ?

overall it is much easier to follow the guidelines from growbooks, and other such guru's a bit like following a recipe from a cook book, this way you do not need to think for yourself or take any risks
personally i find this approach boring and stagnant
found a few more pics, lol, 
this is 4 plants on the opposite side of the room very close spacing, with many leaves removed at 3-4 weeks flower












peace


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 20, 2012)

skunkd0c said:


> Experiment with your plants its fun!
> sometimes you win sometimes you lose, if you are not an imbecile hopefully you will learn from the experience
> 
> from my own experience defoliation does not always improve things, it is strain/pheno dependent on weather the overall yield / colas quility will improve
> ...


What's your point?


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## blindbaby (Nov 20, 2012)

are like solar panels. and when they start to die, they are giving up their selves, to feed the buds. true, they seem to block light. but, im leaving mine on now, as before, i removed them. now, only if a leaf falls off with just a tiny tug, will i do it. however, i am still trying to lean how some of these guys get so much yield. one time i got like 3.5 oz of each of five godbud plants. not since. what did i do? maybe not over crowd them?


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## stumpjumper (Nov 20, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> What's your point?


A picture is worth 1000 words.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 21, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> A picture is worth 1000 words.


And so is a picture with a plant's leaves left on like nature intended it to be, like my avatar. His main colas are not that fat, nor do we see a room of mature plants ready for harvest. It's about at this point that folks induce premature leaf necrosis due to the application of bloom foods, do the never ending coverup dance by embracing an ill conceived cannabis forum paradigm. If you can't retain 90% of a plant's leaves come harvest, you need to start over and read some books on plant culture....and nutrition. 

This is not hearsay people, it's science.

Sheesh, with every new crop of noobies......


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 21, 2012)

ha ha ha "this leaf is blocking the light" ha ha ha


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## stumpjumper (Nov 21, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And so is a picture with a plant's leaves left on like nature intended it to be, like my avatar. His main colas are not that fat, nor do we see a room of mature plants ready for harvest. It's about at this point that folks induce premature leaf necrosis due to the application of bloom foods, do the never ending coverup dance by embracing an ill conceived cannabis forum paradigm. If you can't retain 90% of a plant's leaves come harvest, you need to start over and read some books on plant culture....and nutrition.
> 
> This is not hearsay people, it's science.
> 
> Sheesh, with every new crop of noobies......


 Your plant in your avatar is not a bushy plant and isn't a real leafy one either. I wouldn't cut leaves off of that either. 

It's funny that the breeder of his plants recommends defoliation for that strain, but that means nothing? They (DNA) must just be stupid noobs too huh?



I've been growing for 20 years, your plant is typical for an experienced grower, you aren't a pot-god anymore than I am a noob. Defoliation can be beneficial whether you want to agree or not but saying people are defoliating just because they are trying to cover up leaf necrosis is a pretty fucking dumb statement.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Nov 21, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Your plant in your avatar is not a bushy plant and isn't a real leafy one either. I wouldn't cut leaves off of that either. It's funny that the breeder of his plants recommends defoliation for that strain, but that means nothing? They (DNA) must just be stupid noobs too huh? I've been growing for 20 years, your plant is typical for an experienced grower, you aren't a pot-god anymore than I am a noob. Defoliation can be beneficial whether you want to agree or not but saying people are defoliating just because they are trying to cover up leaf necrosis is a pretty fucking dumb statement.


Everything you have posted in this thread is a "pretty fucking dumb statement" . Straight up, dumbass.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 21, 2012)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Everything you have posted in this thread is a "pretty fucking dumb statement" . Straight up, dumbass.


 Awww all asshurt because I picked on your buddy... poor kid. And this is your reply in this debate? You are calling me dumbass? HA! You're kind of a funny dumbfuck.


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## Huel Perkins (Nov 21, 2012)

Some of this i stole from myself on other threads where this topic came up, sorry to copy/paste myself!

I used to believe in defoliation, i practiced it for years and even preached it to others. I grew the same strain from the same mother for 3-4 years straight with no other varieties, producing many pounds of dope. During that time i did just about every side by side experiment i could thing of and also tried 4 different nutrient brands and some lab testing...

I conclusively determined defoliation does one thing thats good, it stops big fan leaves from shadowing bud sites and allows light to penetrate deeper into the plant to hit lower bud sites. More direct light to these bud sites develops denser / fuller buds. Sounds great but it is a double edge sword...

Any time you remove healthy fan leaves from a flowering plant, you are sacrificing the overall health of the plant and that is a fact. This will slow the growth of buds over the entire plant. When plants can't make as much food and can't breath as well as they could before their fan leaves were removed they're not going to be able to produce as much flower mass. You can argue this all day long but you're wrong, its fact not a theory.

There are a couple things you can do that can provide the benefits of defoliation without the negative side effects. The first one is very simple, instead of chopping leaves off you can tuck them off to the side unshading lower bud sites. The next thing to do is the most beneficial, don't overcrowd your room and have enough light. If your plants are too bunched up and crowded together and you don't have enough light to penetrate down to the base of the plant, that is the reason your plants are producing airy popcorn buds, not god's design. Simply expanding your grow room and adding some side lighting while keeping the same plant count can really improve yield, bud density and overall health of most people's gardens without defoliation.

Every heard of anyone saying they cut off fan leaves on their outdoor plants to unshade lower buds? I sure haven't 

Unlike the light from the sun our indoor lighting loses a substantial amount of it's intensity the further away from the plant it is. Also unlike the light from the sun, our lights are stationary and shine down at our buds from the same angle everyday. This is why outdoor plants get full dense buds top to bottom, they get full light intensity over the whole plant (not just the top) and the angle at which the light hits the plant changes every minute of the day. These are the aspects of mother nature we need to try to replicate to get full dense buds top to bottom, not cutting off the leaves which are solely responsible for the entire growth of the plant. 

I completely understand the impact defoliation has and why people choose to do it. I also understand that leaves are the most important part of the plant because leaves are what drives the growth of the buds and the entire plant for that matter. The whole reason our plants need water, light and CO2 is because they are absolutely essential for photosynthesis to happen. Photosynthesis is what drives all plant growth, including buds. Everything we do to our plants to attempt to improve growth such as better lighting, better nutes, better water supply, CO2 enrichment, perfect temps, ect is all to speed up the rate of photosynthesis and nothing more. All of this photosynthesis happens in the leaves of the plant and any time you remove healthy leaves you hinder photosynthesis and plant growth altogether. 

I know plants have the ability to lose some leaves and still remain strong and that defoliation to let direct light to hit lower buds to improve their growth does in fact work but there is a cost. Its just like the saying _rob Peter to pay Paul_, you're making a sacrifice in one area to improve another. Trading overall yield to get tighter upper buds...

This is the reason for the last year, I've stopped chopping leaves and instead been adding side lighting in the form of cfl bulbs in addition to my hid lighting. Some free hanging cfl's hung right down into the canopy between plants add light intensity to lower bud sites and allow light to hit bud sites from multiple angles much more accurately mimicking mother nature than a single over head light.


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 21, 2012)

if ur plants are too big for ur light, well, theres ur answer, sorry to be painfully obvious


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## stumpjumper (Nov 21, 2012)

I think my plants are just fine.Granted they are only 4 weeks into flower.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm having a hell of a time keeping up with these necrotic leaves too..


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 22, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> I'm having a hell of a time keeping up with these necrotic leaves too..


Report back 4 weeks from now (which aint ever gonna happen)


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## stumpjumper (Nov 23, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Report back 4 weeks from now (which aint ever gonna happen)


 I can guarantee you that it will happen.  Of course in 4 weeks these will be nearing harvest and I will probably trim off a lot more of the fans as they start to fatten. I'll make sure I post a picture for you before I cut any off ok? I would never give you the opportunity to say I cut them because they were necrotic (that is what will never happpen)


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## stumpjumper (Nov 23, 2012)

I guess they do get necrotic during their last week alive. 








And it's not like this is my first grow and I don't know what to expect..


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 23, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Report back 4 weeks from now (which aint ever gonna happen)


You sir are a tool masquerading as a knowitall.

What's your big contribution to this community -- a stickied thread about how to top to get 2 or 4 main colas? Gimme a break.

What's your second biggest contribution to this community -- calling anyone who doesn't do things your way a noob?

Jeeze, why don't they just make you supreme high ruler of ganja. Oh, I see -- you already think you are.

Stop acting like a douche, and people might actually start to respect your opinions.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 23, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Of course in 4 weeks these will be nearing harvest and I will probably trim off a lot more of the fans as they start to fatten.


Yeah, you do that, shit-fer-brains.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 23, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yeah, you do that, shit-fer-brains.


Thanks for proving my point.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 23, 2012)

Oh you want to start name calling now? Maturity isn't your strong point huh? Not to mention youbjust lost the debate... thanks.


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 24, 2012)

just because they are healthy doesnt mean they arent too big for ur light, if u lst differently and grow shorter you can make better use of ur light and ur fan leaves while wasting less time on veg. one of ur lights is shitty and whats up with ur pics stolen from open grow?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Oh you want to start name calling now? Maturity isn't your strong point huh? Not to mention youbjust lost the debate... thanks.


I didn't name call, I just said you don't have a lick of botanical sense. 

I don't lose anything, especially when it comes to potential yields. Some of us understand what makes a plant tick, and it aint your kinda hearsay. This is science, not anecdotal forum ballyhype. 

Don't really care, you do and preach what you want. I'll stick to botany as I have for 40 years......gardening every kind of plant material you can imagine.

See that first photo with all its dark green fan leaves still intact after 7 weeks of flowering? Gotta clue what's happening there? It's producing carbos thru a process called photosynthesis. Now, what does that do regarding production? Go figure....... Also, that shot is not your typical closeup of the top 3" of a cola. It's solid bud AND LEAF for at least 18" top to bottom.






UB


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 24, 2012)

donmagicjuan said:


> .....and whats up with ur pics stolen from open grow?


Hmmmmmmm......got a link?


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## stumpjumper (Nov 24, 2012)

donmagicjuan said:


> just because they are healthy doesnt mean they arent too big for ur light, if u lst differently and grow shorter you can make better use of ur light and ur fan leaves while wasting less time on veg. one of ur lights is shitty and whats up with ur pics stolen from open grow?


You mean my pics from opengrow that I use here because they show up full size? Do I need to post the originals here without the open grow logo so you believe me.. gawd... pretty obvious thats my room but whatever man.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 24, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> I didn't name call, I just said you don't have a lick of botanical sense.
> 
> I don't lose anything, especially when it comes to potential yields. Some of us understand what makes a plant tick, and it aint your kinda hearsay. This is science, not anecdotal forum ballyhype.
> 
> ...


Umm ya I can match those and raise you anydays man. Nice buds tho but not anything that I don't pull every single grow. Except you top your plant and get 4 big colas. I get an average of 10-13 BIG COLAS PER PLANT. Must be my lack of horticultural knowledge huh? 18" buds is caveman easy dude pat youself on the back.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Nov 24, 2012)

[video=youtube;_-74ss5gou4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-74ss5gou4[/video]

This is what happens when we lose the ability to debate.....


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## Trousers (Nov 24, 2012)

I know that defoliation works. I also know that there are many other methods that produce great results. There are some assholes in this thread that are convinced their way is the only way. Why not do a side by side instead of being a pissy bitch and saying your method is the only way to go?


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## sheik yerbouti (Nov 24, 2012)

^

This, I can't stand the people that argue with me when i say that taking off fan leaves varies with strain and growing style and say that taking fan leaves off is bad no matter what. Well guess what, for me and my style (heaving indica and sog style) taking the fan leaves off during certain stages of the grow cycle and moderately to clear space for light and air has proven to create higher yields and denser buds. I've tried due to laziness multiple times to get away without fan leafing and it always bites me in the ass come harvest time. Different strokes for different folks. Do both and see what works best.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 24, 2012)

donmagicjuan said:


> just because they are healthy doesnt mean they arent too big for ur light, if u lst differently and grow shorter you can make better use of ur light and ur fan leaves while wasting less time on veg. one of ur lights is shitty and whats up with ur pics stolen from open grow?



And one of my lights is shitty? Dude you're a dumbfuck, straight up. STFU.


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## crazyhazey (Nov 24, 2012)

some of the recent posts in this thread have been bullshit, tempted to unsubscribe, but on that note anyone who believes defoliation isnt beneficial doesnt realize that when another leaf casts a shadow on one below it, that leaf becomes useless(sorry if i repeat anything anyone or i have already said, its common growing knowledge so some people are gonna accuse you of just changing other peoples words from a few posts ago). as well as any branch in the shadows, its just another place for the plant to separate the flow of energy(that should be going to main buds, but some prefer getting a few main buds and a shit ton of popcorn nugs, have fun trimmin genius), so either way you put it, proper defoliation is gonna benefit in the long run. instead of trimming i would much rather suggest training so any growth is hit by direct light, leaves are the powerhouses of your plant and you shouldnt forget that, but whats the use of a solar panel in the shadows? not shit, thats wasted energy the plant could have put towards more significant growth. keep all the leaves you can but if they're in the shadows, you can even put yourself at risk, to thick of a bush is more likely to get mold damage from lack of air flow, and likely an infestation since you cant look at every bud spot up close and all the leaves are practically sheltering them, be smart, do a scrog or train em to grow horizontally. if your method w/o defoliation has proven to work better, its very likely you defoliated way too much the first time you tried, or took off way too many leaves on one day(which has potential to stress your gals but many environmental factors do so its the least of your problems), dont make em palm trees, just make sure some light can hit em. maybe try training them to grow around your pot, exposing the branches allows equal growth(if they're the same height, any one that gets ahead is a clone to me), this way you can also control where energy goes on the plant(if you want one of the buds to get fatter, tie the bigger one down so its not as high as the less developed one) and you wont have to get rid of any leaves really(unless you get the bushiest strain possible probably). we can all argue that nature has the best way of letting things grow, but i dont see any vertical grows in nature, its because nature doesnt focus on efficiency but rather survival of a species, it puts out so many leaves so when a predator eats off some of the plant, theres plenty of other opportunities. we grow plants for efficiency, why proper defoliation always yields better results, and because the plant will mature more evenly, it will likely yield much more, and be more potent since the buds were given the chance to reach maturity.


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 24, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> And one of my lights is shitty? Dude you're a dumbfuck, straight up. STFU.


no it is its the cheap shit u couldnt hook a filter fan to it it blows

and^^ that means ur plant is too big for the light


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## skunkd0c (Nov 24, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And so is a picture with a plant's leaves left on like nature intended it to be, like my avatar. His main colas are not that fat, nor do we see a room of mature plants ready for harvest. It's about at this point that folks induce premature leaf necrosis due to the application of bloom foods, do the never ending coverup dance by embracing an ill conceived cannabis forum paradigm. If you can't retain 90% of a plant's leaves come harvest, you need to start over and read some books on plant culture....and nutrition.
> 
> This is not hearsay people, it's science.
> 
> Sheesh, with every new crop of noobies......


Your plant in your avatar is ok looking, plants come in many manor of shapes and sizes, i would still class your plant as a small to medium plant, as a single plant it would need little canopy management

how much did it yield ? 

i would not be so bold as to state that my plants are an example of what ALL plants should look like and how they should be grown
that would be both ignorant and silly
i would only hope folk get stuck in and experiment and find out what works for them 

although it's great to know some growers among us are wearing hair-nets, white hats and coats, holding science degrees
They must be smoking some truly awesome shit
































a few more unscientific colas above

peace


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## stumpjumper (Nov 24, 2012)

donmagicjuan said:


> no it is its the cheap shit u couldnt hook a filter fan to it it blows
> 
> and^^ that means ur plant is too big for the light


Well that's fucking hilarious dude. First thing, my light doesn't have a fucking thing to do with the subject here, I don't remember complaining about my light, ohh wait I didn't because the fucking thing works just fine. 

Fucking idiots cant win on one subject so they try to start another.


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## skunkd0c (Nov 24, 2012)

Trousers said:


> I know that defoliation works. I also know that there are many other methods that produce great results. There are some assholes in this thread that are convinced their way is the only way. Why not do a side by side instead of being a pissy bitch and saying your method is the only way to go?


This would require them to actually have some growing experience 
rather than copy and pasting from websites or quoting from grow books
basically some folk like to follow others, that way they avoid taking risks, if they fail they can blame the book they read
others like to find their own way, will make mistakes along the way and hopefully learn from them

peace


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 24, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Well that's fucking hilarious dude. First thing, my light doesn't have a fucking thing to do with the subject here, I don't remember complaining about my light, ohh wait I didn't because the fucking thing works just fine.
> 
> Fucking idiots cant win on one subject so they try to start another.


that hood is a blowjob dude, im sure it works, but if it doesnt penetrate your plants are too big for it sorry dude winning


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## stumpjumper (Nov 25, 2012)

donmagicjuan said:


> that hood is a blowjob dude, im sure it works, but if it doesnt penetrate your plants are too big for it sorry dude winning


 Not even close, better luck next time.  When you have pics to back up your mouth come back at me.


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## Shivaskunk (Nov 25, 2012)

Shit ive killed 80% of the leaves on plants and pulled colas as tall and almost as fat as a cereal box. It is awesome to apply advanced botanical knowledge tp growing premium herb. Lets get real though. Genetics play a massive role in how a plant will grow and produce. Im a'very average grower. Some of my grows have looked like shit but even i can pull 18 inch colas.


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## corban (Nov 25, 2012)

Does defoliation affect the quality/strength of the yield at all?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 25, 2012)

Trousers said:


> I know that defoliation works.


Works to what effect?



> Why not do a side by side instead of being a pissy bitch and saying your method is the only way to go?


Because it's not about another boring, cannabis forum, hocus pocus "method". May be for you but for me it's about science. You've got every kind of "method" tried on an unscientific basis in these blind-leading-the-blind forums and 90% of them actually work against the plant, like the use of bloom foods which screws up the chlorophyll (pigment) that starts this process and the chloroplasts where they are located. And now you're requesting yet another unscientific side by side as opposed to going to a bonafide source like Mel Frank who includes real empirical evidence on cannabis......real scientific studies done by the University of Miss.? Are you frickin' kidding me?

The REAL issue is about maximizing photosynthesis. By removing healthy green fan leaves (which are the plant's most effective and efficient light gatherers) you're reducing the very unit that produces those yields. You guys really don't get it. It's just plain laughable. http://www.ftexploring.com/photosyn/chloroplast.html

Author R.C. Clarke, the authority on cannabis botany, dispels the popular forum 'leafing' myth/paradigm in his book "Marihuana Botany". BUY it.

Also, what in the hell is such a basic botanical question (thread) doing in "Advanced? 

Uncle Ben


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## stumpjumper (Nov 25, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Works to what effect?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder why it works for so many people if it's so wrong?


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## Alexander Supertramp (Nov 25, 2012)

Well UB when I read statements like, "but on that note anyone who believes defoliation isnt beneficial dosent realize that when a leaf casts a shadow on one below it that leaf becomes useless", its makes me laugh my ass off. Yep, these guys really know their botany!. Fact is its just easier for them to believe the unbelievable rather than the scientific facts presented. Let them prune away, good for them.....


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## crazyhazey (Nov 25, 2012)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Well UB when I read statements like, "but on that note anyone who believes defoliation isnt beneficial dosent realize that when a leaf casts a shadow on one below it that leaf becomes useless", its makes me laugh my ass off. Yep, these guys really know their botany!. Fact is its just easier for them to believe the unbelievable rather than the scientific facts presented. Let them prune away, good for them.....


the sole purpose of a leaf is to photosynthesize, when in the shadows they get almost no lumens(idk if youve ever grown any type of plant but if its in the shadows it wont thrive necessarily, dont need a degree in botany to know that) and later on in flower they can be used as a secondary energy source but if your using enough nutes your plant wont need all those leaves will it? just more opportunities for infestations, mold, etc. so, explain, whats so good about having leaves/branches in the shadows? do you just love your popcorn nugs that much? ill keep training and pruning, have fun trimming for hours and getting immature buds buddy.


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## crazyhazey (Nov 25, 2012)

corban said:


> Does defoliation affect the quality/strength of the yield at all?


potency, yes. maturity takes longer for buds found farther from their source of light, or shadowed by leaves, they have much less amber trichs. as for yield, yes since the buds dont mature evenly without defoliating a bit(some training helps a bunch as well) and your left with immature popcorn nugs that are just diverting energy from the bigger buds that could mature a week or two faster than those popcorn nugs are going to take.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 25, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Because it's not about another boring, cannabis forum, hocus pocus "method". May be for you but for me it's about science.


Although I don't have a degree in horticulture or botany, I've taken several college level courses in these disciplines, and agree that the science is important. In the science of botany we can't be so one dimensional in our scientific approaches to the boxed into thinking that it's only about light, air, soil, and nkp. There are much stronger hormonal actions and influences going on within the plant that we also need to consider. Perhaps by defoliating, although we do reduce the amount of photosynthetic receptors, hormones are released by the plant when it gets defoliated that allow it to photosynthesize at a faster rate. It's something to think about. Don't get caught up in one dimensional thinking. The world isn't flat either, if you hadn't heard yet.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 25, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> potency, yes. maturity takes longer for buds found farther from their source of light, or shadowed by leaves, they have much less amber trichs. as for yield, yes since the buds dont mature evenly without defoliating a bit(some training helps a bunch as well) and your left with immature popcorn nugs that are just diverting energy from the bigger buds that could mature a week or two faster than those popcorn nugs are going to take.


Source?...


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 25, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> I wonder why it works for so many people if it's so wrong?


You tell me.

Kinda like America re-electing Obama - "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong".


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 25, 2012)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Well UB when I read statements like, "but on that note anyone who believes defoliation isnt beneficial dosent realize that when a leaf casts a shadow on one below it that leaf becomes useless", its makes me laugh my ass off. Yep, these guys really know their botany!. Fact is its just easier for them to believe the unbelievable rather than the scientific facts presented. Let them prune away, good for them.....




if you have shadows ur plant is too tall for the strength of the light. u have too many leaf sets for ur space and light grow a smaller plant with equal yeild or fewer plants and lst nice and wide


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## crazyhazey (Nov 25, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Source?...


first hand experiences, im not the type to keep a list full of URLs to post on here but when i say something i say it because ive seen it myself. look on the internet and im sure youll find popcorn nugs(or any growth not towards the top of your plant) arent as mature as buds that are closer to the light(it make more sense a plant would focus more energy on the bud closest to its light source, its working towards getting more lumens, come on dude i dont need to give you a source for that). so since these lower, insignificant bud sites arent given the nutrients to mature(i also noticed the tops of top buds are usually the most frosty part of the plant, the first pistil always appears on the top node as well, more proof that the highest bud spots gets the most energy), they lack potency, and their calyxs arent given the chance to swell and fill with resin.
however the higher bud sites will come out more dense and potent since the calyxs were allowed to fully mature and fill with resin, increasing your yield since you dont have energy diverted to insignificant bud sites blocked by leaves. in the end, we all know buds in direct light fill out the most while popcorn nugs left in the shadows only takes energy from the plant, anyone who has grown w/o training/properly defoliating knows this. and another example why shadows arent good can be learned by growing outdoors for years, you realize spots in the shadows are a waste of time, not enough lumens for them to get a good yield. there ya go bud.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 25, 2012)

donmagicjuan said:


> if you have shadows ur plant is too tall for the strength of the light. u have too many leaf sets for ur space and light grow a smaller plant with equal yeild or fewer plants and lst nice and wide


 Why the fuck would I grow a smaller plant to yield less than I would by growing a larger plant and defoliating as needed. Your logic is flawed.


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## Shivaskunk (Nov 25, 2012)

Well side by side tests and comparisons along with peer review IS actually how science is done. The neat thing about science is that it is always growing and learning. Some long held hypothesis have been replaced when a better one comes along.

Having a closed mind and claiming to KNOW is what stagnates scientific discovery. Being unwilling to even experiment for yourself only proves that you are a follower with no ideas worth hearing. I dont doube that you grow good dope UB, but you are unbearably arrogant.


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## crazyhazey (Nov 25, 2012)

Shivaskunk said:


> Well side by side tests and comparisons along with peer review IS actually how science is done. The neat thing about science is that it is always growing and learning. Some long held hypothesis have been replaced when a better one comes along.
> 
> Having a closed mind and claiming to KNOW is what stagnates scientific discovery. Being unwilling to even experiment for yourself only proves that you are a follower with no ideas worth hearing. I dont doube that you grow good dope UB, but you are unbearably arrogant.


ill do a side by side next season if i got a good spot, or someone ask one of the hundreds of people on here starting new grow from clones to do it and im sure they'd accept if they got a few to spare. its not always easy to take someones word when theres so many myths about it, and some think defoliating means stripping your plant of all fan leaves except a few, but i assure you a plant defoliated and trained to fully expose all growth and by keeping all the bud sites equivalent distance away from the light you get more yield and potency due to the equal spread of nutes/energy, exposing all growth isnt exactly achievable without a bit of trimming and training(except some indica strains that have small leaves and larger node separation dont need really any trimming, however training is always beneficial if done right). and i know ub has been a bit hard headed but give him a break, everyone on this forum questions everything everyone says(and i dont blame them, this thread alone proves why you should question things), even i have to sometimes try to clarify the most obvious facts to some of the more arrogant users but some things are hammered into people heads. but we arent here to bitch at each other for not being sure of something, we want to know what is good for cannabis and what isnt, when someone tells you something different be open minded, hostility isnt necessary, smoke some bowls and relax before you make a fool out of yourself(not towards anyone directly, more or less anyone on riu that resolve arguments by acting completely ignorant).


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## perdrick l. hapley (Nov 25, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You tell me.
> 
> Kinda like America re-electing Obama - "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong".


It's as if shivaskunk took the words from my mouth. UB is so sure he and his novel writing buddies from the 60's got everything right there's no need for critical thought or testing. He knows 'what makes a plant tick,' and that's all that matters. 

If you knew anything about science you'd realize you don't know as much as you think you do. You keep saying that you base what you do on 'science,' but when you won't accept empirical evidence that says defolication CAN (in the right circumstances) increase overall yeild and plant vigor you are, by definition, rejecting it. Understanding science means understanding you don't have it all figured out, buddy.

Speaking as someone who will graduate in may with a bs in biological science and international studies, fuck you. Stop masquerading as someone who understands 'botany' or 'science'. From your statements it's vividly clear to me that your political ideals are as woefully misguided as your understanding of these topics, and you aren't capable of understanding much of anything.


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 26, 2012)

"look on the internet and im sure youll find popcorn nugs(or any growth not towards the top of your plant) arent as mature as buds that are closer to the light(it make more sense a plant would focus more energy on the bud closest to its light source, its working towards getting more lumens, come on dude i dont need to give you a source for that). "





plants dont use lumens lumens are seen by the human eye. u need a source and a half idiot


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## donmagicjuan (Nov 26, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Why the fuck would I grow a smaller plant to yield less than I would by growing a larger plant and defoliating as needed. Your logic is flawed.



a smaller plant will get you the same yield in a quicker time period since like u say ur wasting your lower leaf sets


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## TriPurple (Nov 26, 2012)

Ahhhh the question is....... how many of you foliators (non-fan leaf trimmers) FLUSH?............ I have a theory.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 26, 2012)

No it wont. I didn't say I was wasting shit. I said I was turning popcorn into solid, ripe nugs. Maybe you should go back and reread, quit grasping for straws on something to argue about.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> first hand experiences,.....




.....more anecdotal evidence, seeing what you want to see, seeing what you think you'd see, etc. etc.



> and im sure youll find popcorn nugs(or any growth not towards the top of your plant) arent as mature as buds that are closer to the light


Look, the MAIN reason why buds "close to the light" are bulked up more versus those found at lower plant levels is due to apical dominance and timing, they are produced first. The plant will focus "its energy" on what was produced first. It's mainly a hormonal response. I'm not gonna get into light quality as I've beat that subject to death too.

I just harvested outdoor plants and I did several things, as usual - I topped to 4 main colas and come harvest time, took out the bulked fat colas and left the plants for a couple of weeks or so to bulk up the lower buds. It was mostly worthless regarding the Haze as they were more air than calyxes but worked well on the mutts (Peak19 backcrosses).

BTW, those plants got considerable shade during the day, filtered sunlight from to bottom, and did just fine.

UB


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## TriPurple (Nov 26, 2012)

I think it gets blown out of proportion, it's not like were saying cut off ALL fan leaves in every condition. Some people have crowded grow spaces, trimming a few fan leaves gives better light penetration & air circulation. The whole idea of indoor growing is that YOU become mother nature, think of all the other things we do to tweak our gardens.


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## skunkd0c (Nov 26, 2012)

It would appear from the tone of the neanderthals on this thread, Uncle Ben being the prime culprit

not only will leaving too many leaves on your plants whilst flowering spoil the potential of the overall yield and cola quality
lack of defoliation / correct canopy management would also seem to affect human mood 

why are these leaf lovers such miserable cunts ? 
while the rest of us enjoy our well trained plants 

it is futile attempting to convince these imbeciles of their ignorance, they do not possess the strength to admit they were wrong 
let them smoke hay, enlightenment is beyond their grasp
some folk are simply unable to think outside the prison box they have placed themselves in 

peace


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2012)

perdrick l. hapley said:


> You keep saying that you base what you do on 'science,' but when you won't accept empirical evidence


You mean "anecdotal evidence", which is based on subjective feelings, thoughts. Empirical evidence is based on careful field/indoor studies using a control group and replicated at least 3 times in perhaps several geographical areas. Feel free to give me a link or a book title/author regarding your "empirical evidence". IOW, prove it. 



Another MJ nerd that needs to read Marijuana Botany. Here, I'll repeat it what has been said 15 years ago when we had this boring discussion (in the first internet forum).

*Nature has provided for the most efficient (and productive) food producing plant parts you can have on cannabis - fan leaves. Notice the structure - they are large with long petioles to enable them to reach out from the rest of the plant to collect as much solar energy as possible for the production of simple and complex sugars. Do not remove the very unit that provides food for the production of the flowers. In fact, if you have ever seen my pics, you see that I strive to enhance foliar production going into flowering as much as possible. I will post a Peak19 plant that is only 2 weeks old from germ to support my position - notice the wine bottle on the right as a point of size reference. Check out the heavy foliage - they get plenty of N too.

Uncle Ben
*

and......

*In his book "marijuana botany" Robert Connell Clarke states that:

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug cannabis cultivation.

He states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves
surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering , synthesized in the fan leaves during the long
noninductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the
noninductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will
proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters
may begin to develop if they receive more light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind leafing have any validity. 

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances.They do create shade, but at the same time thay are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. 

premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant). He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance

he goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity.

This book has served me very well in my 12+ years of growing--I would have to side with RC on this one--those sunleaves are there for a reason--they dont grow just for show--leave them on there and let that plant grow naturally

Good Luck

Thunderbunny *




> that says defolication CAN (in the right circumstances) increase overall yeild and plant vigor you are, by definition, rejecting it. Understanding science means understanding you don't have it all figured out, buddy.


Exactly how does the increases in yields and plant vigor happen as you remove the very part that produces them? Dat's some mighty fine voodoo magic ya got thar, "buddy".



> Speaking as someone who will graduate in may with a bs in biological science and international studies, fuck you.


That's what I thought, hah! We got another snot nose college kid that didn't learn shit in college! 



> that your political ideals are as woefully misguided as your understanding of these topics, and you aren't capable of understanding much of anything.


Ahhhhhhh, and now we get into politics. OK you liberal tard, if you voted for that con man, Obama, you need your head examined.

UB


----------



## perdrick l. hapley (Nov 26, 2012)

don't talk about plant hormones like you know anything about them. i work in a lab. i use science every day. i get paid for my knowledge, and i don't pretend to understand everything like you do.

prentending that some defoliation wouldn't occur in nature is obtuse. the plant has genetic mechanisms that respond to this. neither you, nor i, nor the scientific community in general fully understand these mechanisms. saying that a) YOU do and b) you know how manipulation of these mechanisms via defoliation will affect EVERY SINGLE GENETICALLY DISCTINCT MARIJUANA PLANT is so fucking obtuse i can't even come up with another word for it. keep spewing your nonsense.

if you knew anything about how politics worked you'd know it didn't matter who the united states elected as president. i am not liberal, nor a tard, and your haste to assume so is indicative of a larger problem in your thinking. that's all i'm going to say about that because, again, you are clearly ignorant regarding the subject.


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## ricky6991 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wow, this thread prob repeats itself alot lol... my post is deffinetly pointless compared to others but i can say that i WISH i could grow the plants you guys are posting... you guys should take it easy considering you are all YEARS ahead of most and grow some retarded shit an here you guys are arguing how to grow even better stuff then you guys are already getting lol... one day hopefully ill have something comparable.

Wouldnt it make a difference if your growing from seed and no topping which is nature and the fan leafs are organized and coming out to the side farther so it doesnt interfere with the one main bud that you would get compared to training which would have branchs blocking branches and leafs from each branch creating a bush that would need trimming for light to get below. If not trimming alittle when training them to grow into bushy plants then why train them, just let them grow one main cola which wont need trimming cause fan leaves stick out plenty more than the width a bud would have... but im litterally 7 days from my first every harvest. Just talking off my general understanding.


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## ricky6991 (Nov 26, 2012)

I can say first hand that i tried to train them into a scrog an didnt trim enough lower branches and they tiny buds cause no light but im not sure if i only topped and had 4 colas each plant and left it alone i could have bigger harvest from 4 big nugs then bunch of tiny ones. Think its all on how much training you do.

Topping to get few colas, the leafs wont block light from anything cause wont really be a bush of buds rather a bush of fan leafs. Whereas, if you train for a scrog and lollipop you could get bigger harvest so it depends what type of training your doing since we are all looking for potency and quantity. If you do a scrog and not trim all the lower stuff(lollipoping) you prob end up with a smaller harvest from popcorn buds taking away from size of colas... once you decide to train a plant your kinda defeating how mother nature wants things done so isnt this argument apples to oranges? 

Example would be in a scrog, would you lollipop the plant but only cut the nodes off and leave all the bottom fan leaves below the screen? The leafs are what stores food and ive read that if leafs are green then some light is gettin to it and you want strong light for the buds, (florecants are weak and still provide enough light for leafs to do there job, the light from hid under the screen prob stronger than flor.). So why trim the fan leafs when there is enough light for them to work?


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## crazyhazey (Nov 26, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> .....more anecdotal evidence, seeing what you want to see, seeing what you think you'd see, etc. etc.
> 
> Look, the MAIN reason why buds "close to the light" are bulked up more versus those found at lower plant levels is due to apical dominance and timing, they are produced first. The plant will focus "its energy" on what was produced first. It's mainly a hormonal response. I'm not gonna get into light quality as I've beat that subject to death too.
> 
> ...



hahaha yeah i just imagined all my grows we're doing well, i grew plants in shadows and wanted to see less yield, but i guess i saw what i wanted to see when my plants yielded like 2-3x more when in direct light, not to mention the buds actually filled out a week earlier vs plants getting shadowed(this is all from a set of trainwreck x bubba clones so genetics wasnt the difference). ive been growing guerrilla for a while, if you let a bush grow too many leaves and shade out your plant you get much less yield. i shouldnt have to tell you shadows have much less lumens than direct. 

and yeah to a fault your correct, it was produced first and because of that it is the highest point getting the most lumens, it put energy towards getting more energy, not just because it was the first thing to grow. you can tie a plant down and make it focus on one part of the growth that is closer to the light(or since we want to sound like botanists on here, you make it release a hormone that causes it to divert energy to a more logical point on the plant). any growth is caused by a hormonal response, that statement was pointless. 

topping takes days off lateral growth not to mention it causes the plant to put out way too many leaves(some strains more than others). why not train and not stress it nearly as much, and you wont have a mess of leaves covering all of your lower buds. maybe then you could harvest all of it in one day, you know loss of any growth during any period causes stress so cutting off the top buds and leaving the bottoms isnt doing you much good especially with a haze. all that trimming would just be a pain in the ass. and plants in the shadows are just a waste, if you can get them 12-14 hours of direct light im sure you could tell the difference, all those hours of photosynthesis lost damage your yield in the long term. saying they're fine is your opinion also, you may be seeing what you wanna see​


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 26, 2012)

I've learned from this thread that UB is far from an expert, and all of his "expert" advise should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Sorry UB, but "12+ years of growing&#8221; isn't that much. Also, to compare the sun hitting lower leaves to an indoor grow is simply retarded. Plus, Clarke's Marijuana Botany is way outdated at this point. Welcome to the 21st century Uncle Ben, where the world is no longer flat!


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## yesum (Nov 26, 2012)

You were called 'obtuse' twice Ben! Are you suffering acute pain from this?

I am one who must trim some fans because of space limits. I have seen about the same yields from trimmed and non trimmed plants. My anecdotal offering.

The lower buds do remain smaller than the top ones, but with more light hitting them, they are denser and a little bigger.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've learned from this thread that UB is far from an expert, and all of his "expert" advise should be taken with a huge grain of salt.


And I've learned after posting 15+ years in cannabis growing forums that there are more morons in this field of wannabes than Heinz has got pickles.

Carry on......


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2012)

perdrick l. hapley said:


> don't talk about plant hormones like you know anything about them. i work in a lab. i use science every day. i get paid for my knowledge, and i don't pretend to understand everything like you do.


And you write like a 10 year old. Quit posing.....


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## crazyhazey (Nov 26, 2012)

ricky6991 said:


> I can say first hand that i tried to train them into a scrog an didnt trim enough lower branches and they tiny buds cause no light but im not sure if i only topped and had 4 colas each plant and left it alone i could have bigger harvest from 4 big nugs then bunch of tiny ones. Think its all on how much training you do.
> 
> Topping to get few colas, the leafs wont block light from anything cause wont really be a bush of buds rather a bush of fan leafs. Whereas, if you train for a scrog and lollipop you could get bigger harvest so it depends what type of training your doing since we are all looking for potency and quantity. If you do a scrog and not trim all the lower stuff(lollipoping) you prob end up with a smaller harvest from popcorn buds taking away from size of colas... once you decide to train a plant your kinda defeating how mother nature wants things done so isnt this argument apples to oranges?
> 
> Example would be in a scrog, would you lollipop the plant but only cut the nodes off and leave all the bottom fan leaves below the screen? The leafs are what stores food and ive read that if leafs are green then some light is gettin to it and you want strong light for the buds, (florecants are weak and still provide enough light for leafs to do there job, the light from hid under the screen prob stronger than flor.). So why trim the fan leafs when there is enough light for them to work?


thats why you have to weave the stem through the scrog and take good care of your canopy, light only travels so far through a leaf and leaves little to no lumens for the leaves below said leaf, the one below that one gets even less, and so on. so here you are left with a bunch opportunities for mold, infestation and its generally just blocking air flow to the plant. not to mention spotting any infection or infestation will be like looking for a needle in a hay stack, good luck. leaves will block light as long as there is growth below them, topping will actually cause the output of more leaves since the plant believes its being attacked(one of mjs many defense mechanisms), so just train to get those colas and dont take off any growth, this'll cause stress and slow your growth, during veg they really need a good environment so they can prepare for flower and harming the plant can affect its vigor throughout its life(also meaning potency and yield, unhappy plants yield not so good buds). 

mother nature isnt always the most efficient, all plants have the end goal of reproduction and survival of the species so allowing them to grow wild doesnt always yield the most potent bud, neither does it usually yield as well as a plant that has been taken care of and trimmed correctly to allow light penetration throughout the plant, in fact youll find in a field of female plants, one or more will hermaphrodite so next season the species will continue, they dont grow big buds for us to come smoke them. with mother nature's design, plants focus on one spot to grow and eventually reach towards its light source as to photosynthesize more(or so it tries to), however we tie them down so all the bud sites have equivalent energy going to them so we can avoid those pesky popcorn nugs come trim time. we grow our plants for yield and potency therefore we find the best ways to make our plant the most efficient, vigorous plants possible and make the best use of our space, and of course to make our jobs a bit easier when we gotta chop. mother nature doesn't always have the best in mind for us, but rather the survival of the species. 

nodes w/ emerging branches below the screen that are also covered by leaves are a waste, if theyre big enough take em as a clone, but if they arent going through the screen they'll likely just divert energy rather than doing any real photosynthesizing and filling out, youll be left with popcorn nugs either way since the canopy is getting all of the energy so even if this bud is expose it wont be significant compared to your top buds. leaves store food for flower(why leaves yellow throughout, the plant uses all energy available) but if fed enough nutrients they wont rely off the leaves for nutrients as much, though in the last two weeks you should just let those leaves yellow, if they appear before the 4th week id feed a little bit of N(feeding it later on wont yield good results, N is needed but too much make buds taste bad). 
if leaves are getting direct light, they serve their purpose, but leaves left in the shadows(even if its still green) are just wasting space and could cause potential problem. now dont strip all leaves since some are still needed for the end of flower but if light doesnt penetrate all your bud spots, get to work on trimming, the problem is usually the fact that the light cannot penetrate these leaves as they are not very transparent(not to say some light doesnt travel through them, just not enough to make the lower leaf significant), strength of the light wont solve it however multiple lights put below the canopy in spots where they're needed can help, exposing these lower branches to any lumens at all will help a bunch.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> hahaha yeah i just imagined all my grows we're doing well, i grew plants in shadows and wanted to see less yield, but i guess i saw what i wanted to see when my plants yielded like 2-3x more when in direct light, not to mention the buds actually filled out a week earlier vs plants getting shadowed(this is all from a set of trainwreck x bubba clones so genetics wasnt the difference). ive been growing guerrilla for a while, if you let a bush grow too many leaves and shade out your plant you get much less yield. i shouldnt have to tell you shadows have much less lumens than direct.
> 
> and yeah to a fault your correct, it was produced first and because of that it is the highest point getting the most lumens, it put energy towards getting more energy, not just because it was the first thing to grow. you can tie a plant down and make it focus on one part of the growth that is closer to the light(or since we want to sound like botanists on here, you make it release a hormone that causes it to divert energy to a more logical point on the plant). any growth is caused by a hormonal response, that statement was pointless.
> 
> topping takes days off lateral growth not to mention it causes the plant to put out way too many leaves(some strains more than others). why not train and not stress it nearly as much, and you wont have a mess of leaves covering all of your lower buds. maybe then you could harvest all of it in one day, you know loss of any growth during any period causes stress so cutting off the top buds and leaving the bottoms isnt doing you much good especially with a haze. all that trimming would just be a pain in the ass. and plants in the shadows are just a waste, if you can get them 12-14 hours of direct light im sure you could tell the difference, all those hours of photosynthesis lost damage your yield in the long term. saying they're fine is your opinion also, you may be seeing what you wanna see​


Yeah, you're a real gardener fer sure. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/539607-hazeys-indoor-outdoor-guerrilla-grow-3.html

Nice crop.

Advice to you too, stop the posing.

FAIL


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 26, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I've learned from this thread that UB is far from an expert, and all of his "expert" advise should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
> ...


I can't agree with you more there. In fact, I think you've clearly proved that point, with yourself being a prime example.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 26, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> I can't agree with you more there. In fact, I think you've clearly proved that point, with yourself being a prime example.


Found a perfect solution for nerds like you that can't keep a leaf green until harvest, then because of their failures come up with the same old justification crap that the fan leaves would have blocked whatever from whatever and reduced whatever. Hope this helps.......

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03076266000P


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 26, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I can't agree with you more there. In fact, I think you've clearly proved that point, with yourself being a prime example.
> ...


Lol, I use that stuff for every harvest!

Funny thing is I never even said which side of the debate I was on. I simply inferred that you are full of shit in general, and indeed you are.


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 26, 2012)

Oh, and by the way dude. I took college level horticulture and botany classes before you started growing weed "15+ years ago". I'm not an expert, but either are you.


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## crazyhazey (Nov 26, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yeah, you're a real gardener fer sure. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/539607-hazeys-indoor-outdoor-guerrilla-grow-3.html
> 
> Pathetic excuse for gardening.
> 
> ...


anything else to that? no? i was scrolling down but i cant find anything, hmm, could it be uncle ben doesnt know jack shit? could be, just anecdotal knowledge right? 
and can it be this post was an attempt to make me look bad after completely schooling a grower of "15 years"(my ass  you think plants in the shadows yield good). lets see, you posted my grow from when i had to go on vacation and leave my plants in bushes? yeah, i guess that was an epic fail seeing as i did cross 2 strains in the end(when i wasnt there might i add), HUGE fail right? uncle ben, the word fail defines you, you shouldnt try to use it against people, you just totally failed at making sense during this entire thread, we dont need to look in my grow journals to see that, you obviously think everyone else doesnt know shit, the thing is, your the one who doesnt seem to have a clue, you just talk out of your ass about science. now, make some more mediocre insults to those who made you look like a dumbass, i know you have a complex where you cant lose arguments and this completely crushed your ego, but arrogance only makes you an easier target. youve had no contribution to this thread, the best thing you can do now since you proven how low you are is just leave, you didnt say anything back to all the things i said and im sure plenty of other people have said shit to you that you would probably just reply with something like this,



Uncle Dumbass said:


> "you cant type, you cant grow, stop posing(and making me look more stupid)"


now, i cant begin to elaborate on how much science is behind that, too much for me to understand, if only i had 15 imaginary years of growing under my belt. damn. 
so, uncle dumbass, wanna give that comment another try? probably not? lets hope so cause im tired of calling you out on your bullshit.

and everyone this is just another way to prove rep doesnt mean shit, one of the best growers on here i know has like 2 rep points. dont think someone knows more than you, and dont always suspect you know something everyone else doesnt(name not needed), be open minded. now, lets stop acting childish and actually debate.


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## crazyhazey (Nov 26, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Found a perfect solution for nerds like you that can't keep a leaf green until harvest, then because of their failures come up with the same old justification crap that the fan leaves would have blocked whatever from whatever and reduced whatever. Hope this helps.......
> 
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03076266000P


so wait, you call people nerds yet claim to have an extensive knowledge of science? we have quite the pussy slayer in our presence everyone, please, now lets bow down to this guy who spends so much time arguing with people online not for the sake of knowledge to grow a valuable plant but rather wastes his time and uses forums for enterntainment, this is probably your only activity during the day that is exciting so i wont try to take it from you, fuckin nerd. 
lets ignore this little temper tantrum and get back to the thread, hes wasting all the space. and leaves arent supposed to stay green till harvest, not fan leaves at least. lol this guys buds must taste like straight fuckin chlorophyll and hay. 

now, does anyone have any real questions about defoliation or are we gonna let this clown ruin this thread?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> and leaves arent supposed to stay green till harvest, not fan leaves at least. lol this guys buds must taste like straight fuckin chlorophyll and hay.


Wrong....

As I've said a million times, by maintaining the most amount of green healthy fan leaves until harvest you maximize yields as MY anecdotal evidence bears out via photos I've posted for many years. It's science, shit-fer-brains, not some noobie herd mentality. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html

Again, you have confirmed my explanation for your lack of horticultural success via the common argument/justification you see often around these parts with folks that don't know what they're doing - you fuck up your plants inducing premature leaf necrosis which naturally compromises your yields and then try to pass off your weaknesses with some lame bullshit that your weed somehow tastes better because it doesn't have any fan leaves (which aren't smoked anyway). Suggest you talk to a Mexican pot grower or a Virginia tobacco grower.

You're a liar and a pussy too. 

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> Oh, and by the way dude. I took college level horticulture and botany classes before you started growing weed "15+ years ago". I'm not an expert, but either are you.


Right.....and I graduate with a Phd in Physics from Stanford U. in May. I'll send you an invitation to the ceremony.


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## Huel Perkins (Nov 27, 2012)

I love this thread lol!


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## cannawizard (Nov 27, 2012)

actually, if you do a proper cure after harvest, that will remove the chlorophyll/hay taste in your buds 

**having green leaves up until harvest is not the reason your buds taste like schwagg, its because you did not harvest/cure properly..


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## kinetic (Nov 27, 2012)

Ben you forget these guys are the ones with a shout out by Jorge Cervantes, oh wait that was you in his book...


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> actually, if you do a proper cure after harvest, that will remove the chlorophyll/hay taste in your buds
> 
> **having green leaves up until harvest is not the reason your buds taste like schwagg, its because you did not harvest/cure properly..


Before harvesting my O. Haze, I flushed my 5 gal. pots with rainwater every day for about 2 weeks. The leaves were still a medium, very healthy green when manicured mostly due to the effects of the slow release food they got from start to finish, a 18-5-9 with micros. When "cured", the bud is green and does not turn brown until about a year or so in storage. 

What exactly does chlorophyll taste like LOL? Personally, never tried it alone unlike Sam the Skunkman who experimented with pure cannabanoid isolates alone and mixed.

About curing, smoothness of the burn, I still maintain that it's a matter of the mix and amount of ingredients in the resin, mostly terpenes and such, perhaps cannabanoids. Indicas or your typical mutts have quite a bit of resin, trichomes, because that's what sells. Sativas don't. In fact, I can hardly see the trichomes on my Haze which is pure sativa hybrid and the aroma is almost non existent. https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-6.html

Want a real eye opener, check out the contaminants of cannabis! http://www.druglibrary.org/olsen/hemp/iha/iha01205.html

UB


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## stumpjumper (Nov 27, 2012)

Hahaha sorry about your haze lmao....


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## PJ Diaz (Nov 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Right.....and I graduate with a Phd in Physics from Stanford U. in May. I'll send you an invitation to the ceremony.


Awesome dude. I live in the area, and work at a local College myself.


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## stumpjumper (Nov 27, 2012)

Can barely see the trichs on my necrotic plants either. I wish I wouldn't have cut any leaves off....


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> I wish I wouldn't have cut any leaves off....


Looks like they are there to me.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Hahaha sorry about your haze lmao....


Curious, what's that supposed to mean?


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## stumpjumper (Nov 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Curious, what's that supposed to mean?


Nothing really but I've never grown a Haze that wasn't covered in trichs....


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## zack66 (Nov 27, 2012)

I've tried removing some before and wasn't really happy with the end results. Even waited till the last couple weeks in flower to remove them. Results were fair at best. This run i'm leaving all the leaves to do a comparison. Purple Kush 7 weeks since switch to 12/12. They seem happier with the leaves on.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Nothing really but I've never grown a Haze that wasn't covered in trichs....


I seriously doubt if you've ever grown out anything but a mutt. The ONLY true, pure Haze, a sativa hybrid, as done by the Haze brothers of Santa Cruz is Acapulco Gold X Col. Gold X (S. Indian X Thai). True sativas have trichomes, naturally, but they're just damned hard to see with the naked eye. I've grown out plenty both indoors and out now and they're all the same. Some of those would be old Mex, Zamal and Vietnamese Dalat.....all which I currently stock.

UB


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## Trousers (Nov 27, 2012)

Nobody likes to take "advice" from an asshole, UB.
Trust me, I know.


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## crazyhazey (Nov 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wrong....
> 
> As I've said a million times, by maintaining the most amount of green healthy fan leaves until harvest you maximize yields as MY anecdotal evidence bears out via photos I've posted for many years. It's science, shit-fer-brains, not some noobie herd mentality. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html
> 
> ...


ahahaha do you ever stop with you "it's science" bullshit? plants naturally use their own energy source towards the end of its life, 2 weeks from harvest it should be yellowing and going into overdrive to swell, this means eliminating the less significant leaves(why it starts from the bottom). you may not see yellowing leaves on your bushes because you dont defoliate at all, somewhere in that clusterfuck of leaves they're there, or your feeding your plants way too much N. even when feeding nutrients your leaves should turn yellow towards harvest(not nearly any N is used for flower, N is for new leaf growth and branches, not resin, trichs, etc., if you do feed too much N during flower buds wont swell as much since they'll want to put energy towards new growth, why i always look for more p and k after the first 2-3 weeks of flower), its not the fact its underfed, it just wants to use every last bit of energy it can receive not through its root system, every other plant in nature does about the same thing, why do you think tree leaves change color in the spring? same damn reason, they're ready to be finished, leaves store energy not just to be trimmed off later, and if they're not yellowing then they're just retaining energy that should be getting killed off by the plant and put towards bud growth. you keep claiming to have more grow experience but you told me plants yield well in shadows and that the plant focuses on what was produced first but not rather which point photosynthesizes more. give me a break dude, you do a good share of talking straight outta your ass, go on and call names, i dont need to insult you, ill let everyone else do that, i dont need to establish anything. now, why should i talk to a mexican grower or a tobacco grower? do they grow schwag as good as your haze?


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## crazyhazey (Nov 27, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> actually, if you do a proper cure after harvest, that will remove the chlorophyll/hay taste in your buds
> 
> **having green leaves up until harvest is not the reason your buds taste like schwagg, its because you did not harvest/cure properly..


if you overfeed N youll have a lot more chlorophyll to deal with and not nearly as much trichs, less leaf matter in general on your bud will affect taste in general but feeding too much N makes your buds harsher. cure for months and im sure the taste will still be not as good as a plant that was allowed to fully mature, if the plant knew it only had a week or two left it would have killed off the leaves for energy and went into overdrive for swelling/resin output which, any plant with all green leaves at harvest should probably be left alone for another week or two, that doesnt sound finished to me, plants dont just store energy so it can be thrown away.


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## Kite High (Nov 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wrong....
> 
> As I've said a million times, by maintaining the most amount of green healthy fan leaves until harvest you maximize yields as MY anecdotal evidence bears out via photos I've posted for many years. It's science, shit-fer-brains, not some noobie herd mentality. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html
> 
> ...


I know I love micro-kote...another brand but same as spin out...and yes green leaves to harvest=most yield...can't get around it...it is just the way a plant works...and the taste is all in the dry/cure...you can't wash anything outta da plant...and starving it will fuck it up not help...


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## perdrick l. hapley (Nov 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Wrong....
> 
> As I've said a million times, by maintaining the most amount of green healthy fan leaves until harvest you maximize yields as MY anecdotal evidence bears out via photos I've posted for many years. It's science, shit-fer-brains, not some noobie herd mentality. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html
> 
> ...


you write like a 10 year old. quit posing......


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## crazyhazey (Nov 27, 2012)

Kite High said:


> I know I love micro-kote...another brand but same as spin out...and yes green leaves to harvest=most yield...can't get around it...it is just the way a plant works...and the taste is all in the dry/cure...you can't wash anything outta da plant...and starving it will fuck it up not help...


kitehigh ive found over recent threads your usually on point with your info so ill take your word, sounds more believable not coming from the guy whos been spewing bullshit all over this thread. how could a plant keep all leaves green when its ready to be harvested? i feel like it would take away from resin/trich development since the plant doesnt feel like it needs to reproduce and put out defense mechanisms to protect its potential offspring, that bit of environmental stress causes much more resin output but ill give this a try when i got a set of clones to experiment with. i see yellowing leaves w/o starving em though, i just cut off N when they dont need it.


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## skunkd0c (Nov 27, 2012)

This mango haze leaning girl had most of her leaves removed by around week 8 of flower, she took 14 weeks total, yielded just over 21 oz (600g)











































peace


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## Krondizzel (Nov 27, 2012)

Wow. Wow wow wow. That's how it's done!


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## ricky6991 (Nov 27, 2012)

Is that picture right before you dried or is that 4 weeks early?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 27, 2012)

skunkd0c said:


> This mango haze leaning girl had most of her leaves removed by around week 8 of flower, she took 14 weeks total, yielded just over 21 oz (600g)


And if you had left it alone it would have yielded "just over 26 oz".


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## cannawizard (Nov 28, 2012)

crazyhazey said:


> if you overfeed N youll have a lot more chlorophyll to deal with and not nearly as much trichs, less leaf matter in general on your bud will affect taste in general but feeding too much N makes your buds harsher. cure for months and im sure the taste will still be not as good as a plant that was allowed to fully mature, if the plant knew it only had a week or two left it would have killed off the leaves for energy and went into overdrive for swelling/resin output which, any plant with all green leaves at harvest should probably be left alone for another week or two, that doesnt sound finished to me, plants dont just store energy so it can be thrown away.


*you make valid points, since we don't do enough scientific studies on the actual growth of this plant in real lab environments --
(EX: plant life/maturation/end cycle, resin/thc/terpene outputs, what exactly happens under the microscope, etc etc) then everything really falls under "conjecture"  

instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, try experimenting with a couple strains with the leaves on and green during final cut, and see if you notice anything different~


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## skunkd0c (Nov 28, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And if you had left it alone it would have yielded "just over 26 oz".


short answer NO


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## Sticky Lungs (Nov 28, 2012)

I believe I read that fan leaves account for around 90% of the plants energy converting capabilities. I ALWAYS prefer to bend a leaf over removing it...however, sometimes it is necessary to remove A FEW leaves. I wouldn't strip my plant down to just buds though...thats not good.


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## BigBuddahCheese (Nov 28, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And if you had left it alone it would have yielded "just over 26 oz".


Wow.. a closed minded 4000 post user? Never on RIU... I'm shocked. I am a defoliate fan, as I have seen the difference and experience it every grow. At least in DWC, maybe in soil or other mediums it is a different story.

Oh.. and of course I defoliate within reason but I have been known to clip a leaf for looking at me wrong.


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## akula (Nov 28, 2012)

This debate reminds me of the pre-harvest flushing debate, and its just as nasty and ugly. However unlike that debate, I am more neutral on this debate or on-the-fence I guess you could say. The problem is that I see a lot of anecdotal evidence here for the pro side for extreme defoliation, same as pro pre-harvest flushing. Problem with all this anecdotal evidence is that it is subject to *confirmation biases*. 

For example; about 8 years ago I declared war on a forest of blackberry bushes on my property. I got a chainsaw and axe and cut them down. Then I ran a rotor machine with a large blade to cut their roots down a few feet. 8 years later my daughter regularly hikes down there and collects large buckets of rich juicy and sweet blackberries. In my view I was defeated by the fucking blackberry bushes, and they are an immovable object and that is one confirmation bias because I was expecting the eradication of the blackberry bushes. On the other hand, if I was looking for years of harvesting juicy blackberries(like my daughter), I could come to the conclusion that chopping them down and ripping the roots up is actually beneficial for producing nice sweet and juicy blackberries. That is also confirmation bias. 

So my view is that this idea of extreme defoliation is somewhat unnatural so that you would need some scientific evidence to back such a radical idea. Now you could argue it is fairly natural for the cannabis plant to produce far more leaves then it needs because of natural defoliation like wildlife and weather and such. And I think that would be a good argument for minimal defoliation. 

Anyways I would like more scientific evidence if someone could provide it. I understand that it may be difficult for a cannabis perspective, but any kind will do. I also grow tomatoes in doors and know other do as well, so maybe some evidence in some studies of botany in that realm.

Edit: btw, I am a "minimal defoliation(er)" in case anyone was interested. I guess that is why I feel neutral on this debate.


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## Kite High (Nov 28, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> *you make valid points, since we don't do enough scientific studies on the actual growth of this plant in real lab environments --
> (EX: plant life/maturation/end cycle, resin/thc/terpene outputs, what exactly happens under the microscope, etc etc) then everything really falls under "conjecture"
> 
> instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, try experimenting with a couple strains with the leaves on and green during final cut, and see if you notice anything different~


EXACTLY!! nothing absolutely nothing compares to seeing it for yourself...I did this a few times and the green to the end has always out produced with as much or more resin production and actually a tad better potency as well...resin production is great and all but I have grown/used plants with very minuscule trichome coverage that was soaring hold onto your pants wild toad ride (my grail is trippy weed, indicas IMO are only for sleeping) but yes ...do an HONEST experiment with no expectations of outcome and see for yourself...the ONLY way YOU will KNOW

ps- hazey...there are a few tips I can share which support trichome production...lower temps towards the END of flowering, low relative humidity (constant low even and especially lights out) increased SULFUR content of feed and pk boost last week or two of flower...oh and blue/and or intense light...but these last two are the least effective...well fed low rh exposed plants triche up greatly ime...as to the remove leaves or not debate I am of the opinion that basic botany dictates...leaves are the "factories" which produce the fuel the plant needs to do EVERYTHING it does...even trichome production so therefore I concentrate on retaining maximum number of green healthy leaves and do not concern myself much with growing bud or trichomes...the more food, fuel, available the more the plant can do thereby it will grow more bud/trichomes because it has more food/fuel/resources available to do so...seems obvious logic to me but what do I know? That I love growing and using this plant


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 29, 2012)

akula said:


> For example; about 8 years ago I declared war on a forest of blackberry bushes on my property. I got a chainsaw and axe and cut them down. Then I ran a rotor machine with a large blade to cut their roots down a few feet. 8 years later my daughter regularly hikes down there and collects large buckets of rich juicy and sweet blackberries.


That's one good way to increase production, hah! You took one blackberry bush and created a hundred!

You probably realize by now that cannabis culture for noobs (and others that will never get it) is driven by hype, false information, false dreams hawked by cannabis specific conmen to sell product, re-inventing the wheel with trickery and gimmicks..... and basically treating this weed like something it's not. 

Speaking of tomatoes, got some special greenhouse F1 maters that are produced in the Netherlands. They are just turning red. Growing very well. I don't pull off the "suckers" either.

UB


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## crazyhazey (Nov 29, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> *you make valid points, since we don't do enough scientific studies on the actual growth of this plant in real lab environments --
> (EX: plant life/maturation/end cycle, resin/thc/terpene outputs, what exactly happens under the microscope, etc etc) then everything really falls under "conjecture"
> 
> instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, try experimenting with a couple strains with the leaves on and green during final cut, and see if you notice anything different~


will for sure try it out when i got some clones so the strain factor doesnt come into play, over the years ive always found more green leaves usually means my product isn't nearly mature enough but it doesnt hurt to try out a new method. ill report back as soon as i see anything significant, i might train both however because i just fuckin hate popcorn nugs, hand cramps aint worth it come trimmin time. could be a few months till i got some good mother but ill make sure to post it somewhere. i also make BHO daily so ill make a batch out of both and do a smoke report, and ill have to roll one up in a raw paper to the true taste w/o solvents. and im not trying to argue just to argue, i want to make sure that no bullshit gets spread over rollitup because thats happened to all of us, people still tell me to flush plants with ice water however that kills plants if theres not enough soil, but cause one person heard it they spread it everywhere.


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## crazyhazey (Nov 29, 2012)

Kite High said:


> EXACTLY!! nothing absolutely nothing compares to seeing it for yourself...I did this a few times and the green to the end has always out produced with as much or more resin production and actually a tad better potency as well...resin production is great and all but I have grown/used plants with very minuscule trichome coverage that was soaring hold onto your pants wild toad ride (my grail is trippy weed, indicas IMO are only for sleeping) but yes ...do an HONEST experiment with no expectations of outcome and see for yourself...the ONLY way YOU will KNOW
> 
> ps- hazey...there are a few tips I can share which support trichome production...lower temps towards the END of flowering, low relative humidity (constant low even and especially lights out) increased SULFUR content of feed and pk boost last week or two of flower...oh and blue/and or intense light...but these last two are the least effective...well fed low rh exposed plants triche up greatly ime...as to the remove leaves or not debate I am of the opinion that basic botany dictates...leaves are the "factories" which produce the fuel the plant needs to do EVERYTHING it does...even trichome production so therefore I concentrate on retaining maximum number of green healthy leaves and do not concern myself much with growing bud or trichomes...the more food, fuel, available the more the plant can do thereby it will grow more bud/trichomes because it has more food/fuel/resources available to do so...seems obvious logic to me but what do I know? That I love growing and using this plant


well damn i really want to try this method to see for myself, should you just keep feedin N throughout to keep em green? havent heard of that part about sulfur before but ill keep note of it when i buying nutes next time, id expect worm castings/bat guano to have some but ill look into it if more is necessary. and i know what you mean but do leaves in the middle of a bush do any real work besides storing for later? w/o light they arent photosynthesizing necessarily, however i do get the point made. i mean how many leaves can you really leave before you risk a higher chance of mold, overlooked infestations and way too many popcorn nugs(unless you train/scrog and spread your plant out, not sure if you do or not)? im not sure if your nugs fill out completely or mature evenly when shadowed but ive never seen such a thing, not with the strains ive grown at least. ill take your word though kite high, seeing it first hand however will be interesting. thanks for the info w/o all the childish remarks ive seen in all these other posts, its sad what debating has come to on RIU.


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## Kite High (Nov 30, 2012)

If they are staying green they will be photo'ing otherwise they yellow in too little light

and you put light down there

check it out:







and adequate air movement no mold problems

I use DG Foliage Pro , supplement with Liquid Karma and Calmag- Plus, A tad of Jacks acid special occasionally, throughout the grow and supplement in Flower with DG mag-pro...adjusting the amounts as instructed by the plants


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## Huel Perkins (Nov 30, 2012)

Kite High said:


> If they are staying green they will be photo'ing otherwise they yellow in too little light
> 
> and you put light down there
> 
> ...


Finally, someone else who gets it...


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## crazyhazey (Nov 30, 2012)

Kite High said:


> If they are staying green they will be photo'ing otherwise they yellow in too little light
> 
> and you put light down there
> 
> ...


never thought about it like that, and outdoors you got a better chance of mold especially if its humid and you get unexpected rains. consider yourself lucky to be able to grow indoors, running the A/C for it down here kills your electric bill.


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## Kite High (Nov 30, 2012)

The grow room has its own mini split ac. It doesn't use as much as 2 400 watt lights at all. These things are truly efficient. And the room is completely sealed so that helps tremendously as well. 1 20lbs tank co2 lasts 2 months as well. Like I said it is really sealed.


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## slowbus (Dec 1, 2012)

I have always had poor performance,small root mass and low yields.I have always trimmed off the leaves.Now my mites are beat down and I'm leaving them.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 1, 2012)

slowbus said:


> I have always had poor performance,small root mass and low yields.I have always trimmed off the leaves.Now my mites are beat down and I'm leaving them.


lol really?


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## slowbus (Dec 2, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> lol really?




lol,...really. Thats how I ended up here.I used to have mites bad.So over time I got carried away clippin leaves getting rid of mites


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## Huel Perkins (Dec 2, 2012)

I figured the guys who cut their leaves off might welcome mites into their garden lol.


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## HeartlandHank (Dec 2, 2012)

UB...
I took your advice on proper NPK balance... my yields and plants health went up.
I took your advice on not defoliating... my yields and plants health went up.
I'm stubbornly hanging on to pinching out lower bud sites up until the 3rd week of flower.
I don't like to remove the lower branches unless the growth tip of that branch is very small and completely shadowed.
I instead remove just the bud sites, leaving the fan leaves, up to the point of the branch that typically produces decent buds.

do you think I am still hurting my yields/quality/etc...?

If it only slightly hurt yield, i'm ok with that, as i mostly do this to make room for being able to hand water the plants and keep dead leaves out of the coco.

People speak of the "energy" directed to the top... I have seen that you question what this "energy" is.

Do you feel that removing these little bud sites completely wipes that weight from the harvest? Or do you think that if done early in flower there is an increase in buds elsewhere with the absence of the lower, small bud sites?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 3, 2012)

HeartlandHank said:


> UB...
> I took your advice on proper NPK balance... my yields and plants health went up.
> I took your advice on not defoliating... my yields and plants health went up.


Sounds like you focused on the only thing that matters and what I've been preaching for years - the best and most root and foliage mass you can muster going into harvest. Good on ya!



> I'm stubbornly hanging on to pinching out lower bud sites up until the 3rd week of flower.


Knock yourself out. Me? I've got better things to do. I always do a double harvest for my plants and those lower buds do bulk up a bit and add to my yields.



> I don't like to remove the lower branches unless the growth tip of that branch is very small and completely shadowed.
> I instead remove just the bud sites, leaving the fan leaves, up to the point of the branch that typically produces decent buds.


Again, even it's shadowed, don't worry about it. Only in cannabis forums does this "issue" come up, and it comes up with every new crop of noobies who seem hell bent on fighting a self contrived war. There isn't a farmer or greenhouse grower of annuals that worries about the lower foliage.....don't care if they're growing pomegranates, citrus, apples, mums, roses, orchids, lettuce or herbs in aquaculture or what.



> do you think I am still hurting my yields/quality/etc...?[
> 
> If it only slightly hurt yield, i'm ok with that, as i mostly do this to make room for being able to hand water the plants and keep dead leaves out of the coco.


Yank off non-productive, yellowing or disease riddled leaves no matter where they're located.

Good luck,
Uncle Ben


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 3, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And if you had left it alone it would have yielded "just over 26 oz".


I seriously doubt that...Proper leaf removal causes what you see in them pics, by the way AWSOME pics!

Removimg leaves in a manner that benifets the plant can and does increase yeild. The 2 main reasons for this is one...allows light to penatrate the canopy and the second and more important(IMO) reason is energy transfer.

At a point in the life cycle a storage leaf will begin to draw energy instead of store energy for the girls so it only make sense to remove those leaves. Knowing when and which ones is key.

If your looking for popcorn buds, non-leaf removal is a good technique to use.


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## HeartlandHank (Dec 3, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Good luck,
> Uncle Ben


Thanks again.


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 3, 2012)

HeartlandHank said:


> UB...
> I took your advice on proper NPK balance... my yields and plants health went up.
> I took your advice on not defoliating... my yields and plants health went up.
> I'm stubbornly hanging on to pinching out lower bud sites up until the 3rd week of flower.
> ...


Whatever you remove from the lower section of your plants you will make up in the weight of the tops. Removing leaves at the proper time IS the key to maxing your yeild.

As for energy...the plant uptakes nutes and water and disperses it throughout the plant, larger fan leave are considered as storage decices for the plant and if needed the plant will use the energy from the leaves to survive. Once the plant is manipulated by removing storage leaves the energy to keep that leaf alive is used for other purposes like flowers, and thats what were all are here for. Leaving your leaves on produces a lot of popcorn in the lower areas but properly removing leaves and lower limbs transfers that popcorn weight to the tops.

You will not loose yeild or quality, so do you want popcorn or clubs.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 4, 2012)

Only 2 more weeks to get necrotic..... I don't think it's happening. I'm going to cut a few leaves off today, for a few bottoms still in the shade and clearly behind the ones that aren't shaded..


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 4, 2012)

I don't even know why UB even bothers with this crap.......nothing but logical/industry proven advice given by the old fart

*Cough*........If you don't know who wrote this/well you have more studying to do........be safe and happy growing 

*Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug Cannabis cultivation. In the mind of the cultivator, several reasons exist for removing leaves. Many feel that large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant, and therefore the flowering clusters will be smaller. It is felt that by removing the leaves, surplus energy will be available, and large floral clusters will be formed. Also, some feel that inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the leaves during the long noninductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the noninductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower, and maturation will be accelerated. Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.*
*In actuality, few if any of the theories behind leafing give any indication of validity. Indeed, leafing possibly serves to defeat its original purpose. Large leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of Cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth sub stances. They also create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of leaves may cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced. As these leaves age and lose their ability to carry on photo synthesis they turn chlorotie (yellow) and fall to the ground. In humid areas care is taken to remove the yellow or brown leaves, because they might invite attack by fungus. During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls, and translocates the molecular components to a new growing part of the plant, such as the flowers. Most Cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage, and this trend continues until senescence. It is more efficient for the plant to reuse the energy and various molecular components of existing chlorophyll than to synthesize new chlorophyll at the time of flowering. During flowering this energy is needed to form floral clusters and ripen seeds.*
*Removing large amounts of leaves may interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. If this metabolic change occurs too late in the season it could interfere with floral development and delay maturation. If any floral inhibitors are removed, the intended effect of accelerating flowering will probably be counteracted by metabolic upset in the plant. Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will probably not grow any larger. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change.*
*If leaves must be removed, the petiole is cut so that at least an inch remains attached to the stalk. Weaknesses in the limb axis at the node result if the leaves are pulled off at the abscission layer while they are still green. Care is taken to see that the shriveling petiole does not invite fungus attack.*
*It should be remembered that, regardless of strain or environmental conditions, the plant strives to reproduce, and reproduction is favored by early maturation. This produces a situation where plants are trying to mature and reproduce as fast as possible. Although the purpose of leafing is to speed maturation, disturbing the natural progressive growth of a plant probably interferes with its rapid development.*
*Cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of Cannabis will affect productivity. Imaginative combinations and adaptations of propagation techniques exist, based on specific situations of cultivation. Logical choices are made to direct the natural growth cycle of Cannabis to favor the timely maturation of those products sought by the cultivator, without sacrificing seed or clone production.






*


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 4, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> I don't even know why UB even bothers with this crap.......nothing but logical/industry proven advice given by the old fart
> 
> *Cough*........If you don't know who wrote this/well you have more studying to do........be safe and happy growing
> 
> ...


Yep.

Thoin' pearls before swine,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 4, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Only 2 more weeks to get necrotic..... I don't think it's happening. I'm going to cut a few leaves off today, for a few bottoms still in the shade and clearly behind the ones that aren't shaded..


Since you've come to the conclusion that less leaves produces more, I'm quite surprised you haven't started butchering them sooner. Why not? I mean if less leaves produces more yield, whatcha waiting for?


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## stumpjumper (Dec 4, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Since you've come to the conclusion that less leaves produces more, I'm quite surprised you haven't started butchering them sooner. Why not? I mean if less leaves produces more yield, whatcha waiting for?


 I never said that, I said removing leaves that are shading out lower bud sites to give those sites direct light will improve the quality of those buds. 

Thats a fact Mr. 

You don't have to strip every leaf off the plant to accomplish this and it can be done without being detrimental to the overall plant health, obviously.

Take your nose out of the books and get a little experience under your belt. I'm tired of argueing with Ed Rosenthal when he isn't even here to agree or disagree.


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## thedude27 (Dec 5, 2012)

All I can say is this thread delivers. I mean from defoliation, light cycles, to politics(BTW loved the "it could have been 26oz with the leaves on" sounds like a argument for that wasted stimulus money...lol) and even a few decent insults. I think the best part is the OP got fed up and left.

I did actually learn a few things in the thread, although none of it about the subject of defoliation


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 5, 2012)

thedude27 said:


> All I can say is this thread delivers. I mean from defoliation, light cycles, to politics(BTW loved the "it could have been 26oz with the leaves on" sounds like a argument for that wasted stimulus money...lol) and even a few decent insults. I think the best part is the OP got fed up and left.
> 
> I did actually learn a few things in the thread, although none of it about the subject of defoliation


Try this new post, it is relevant to the function of fan leaves. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-59.html#post8342178


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 5, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> I never said that, I said removing leaves that are shading out lower bud sites to give those sites direct light will improve the quality of those buds.
> 
> Thats a fact Mr.


So one should throw away all apples, plums, grapes, peaches, tomatoes, peppers, roses, mums, etc. found within a dense canopy because they are totally shaded?

Sorry, but buds don't have a tenth of the photosynthetic activity of a fan leaf.

Thats a fact Mr.  

You're a part of the same old dumbass, Obama worshipping, herd when it comes to pot growers and going along to get along. Try this one which focuses on such ignorant thought - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-59.html#post8342178

Get your nose into a horticulture and botany book, and I don't mean one focused on cannabis.


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## ae86 grower (Dec 5, 2012)

i agree with you uncle ben but i think what he was getting at was not the light to the actual bud but the branch, as the lower buds will have there own sets of leaves to produce more flower or bud you increase the size and density of the bud, thus adding weight to the yeild...


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## stumpjumper (Dec 5, 2012)

No I'm not speaking in Romulan...

What I mean is:

Little tiny light green immature bud being shaded by a bunch of fan leaves will darken, fatten and mature when said fan leaves are removed to allow light to get to the poor little worthless bud. 

Uncle Buck, you're giving too much credit to tomatoes and roses.. Get back to the subject because tomatoes and roses are irrelevant to this topic. 

Enjoy your immature popcorn fluff, I wont have any.

BTW, Nothing necrotic yet.. only a little over a week left.. I've also decided to not take anymore fan leaves off, I have pretty good light penetration now, just so you can't say I cut them off because they were necrotic.. 

Also Uncle Buck, since my plants are mutilated you must also havean idea of what kind of yield I should be expecting.. Here's a math problem for you..

8 plants x 4 weeks veg + 2 x 600w HID's = Weight

What are you thinking my harvest weight will be since I fucked my plants and they aren't growing right? It doesn't matter does it. If I pull 2 elbows you'll say it could've been 3 right? lmao.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 5, 2012)

Pearls before swine. What's this 'Uncle Buck' stuff?



> Little tiny light green immature bud being shaded by a bunch of fan leaves will darken, fatten and mature when said fan leaves are removed to allow light to get to the poor little worthless bud.


As I said before, that is botanically impossible. I'll repeat myself for those that have a thick head - "Sorry, but buds don't have a tenth of the photosynthetic activity of a fan leaf."



> Uncle Buck, you're giving too much credit to tomatoes and roses.. Get back to the subject because tomatoes and roses are irrelevant to this topic.


It's totally relevant, you just won't admit to the facts since you can't grasp plant processes/concepts. Hmmmmmmmmmprrrrrhhhhh.....guess I need to pluck all those shaded peaches next July. They won't have any "quality", right?

And you WILL have immature popcorn fluff, pluck or not.

Pluck away, you Mother Plucker.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 5, 2012)

You're wrong..

Buds do contain their own leaves besides the fan leaves, maybe they use those once the fan is gone. That's incomprehensible though huh?

So tell me then Mr. All Knowing.. Why do they green up, mature and get fatter once they start getting direct light, if it isn't because the fan leaf is gone? They wouldn't have when the fan leaf was there blocking the light. You can argue all you want but the direct light is beneficial and I've seen it first hand on many occasions. 

You can argue till you're blue in the face but you will not change my mind because my opinion is based on experience. You are basing yours on what someone else says.

Sorry bout the Uncle Buck thing, I guess you reminded me of someone else.


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## skunkd0c (Dec 5, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> I don't even know why UB even bothers with this crap.......nothing but logical/industry proven advice given by the old fart
> 
> *Cough*........If you don't know who wrote this/well you have more studying to do........be safe and happy growing
> 
> ...



What a fine example of an ignorant follower above in all their sheepish majesty 
copy n pasting the universal truth for us all to bow down to from whatever popular guru worthy of worship without question

1, your opinion is not worth shit i am sorry sir, your opinion will not stop my trees from growing 

2, posting the opinions of others as if they are a universal fact is one of the most cowardly ignorant acts imo 

3, establish your own facts , through experience trial n error 

4 fanboys like UB inhibit progress as all they can do is repeat the same mistakes as their masters 

if you would like to post some pictures of plants you have grown and defoliated yourself, that would be more interesting
than your second hand regurgitated opinion

peace


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## ae86 grower (Dec 5, 2012)

well as you asked skunkdoc, some pic`s of my slight defoiliated plants...

as you can see, and sorry the pic isn`t that good, but i`ve a small area to grow with height being scarce i have to keep them small, so even if there topped or not, super cropped etc, the one thing i find that works each time is to defoiliate slightly and as regular as needed....

last chop down pic there and got just under 252g so just under 9oz off 4 plants that were no taller than 2ft...


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 5, 2012)

skunkd0c said:


> What a fine example of an ignorant follower above in all their sheepish majesty
> copy n pasting the universal truth for us all to bow down to from whatever popular guru worthy of worship without question
> 
> 1, your opinion is not worth shit i am sorry sir, your opinion will not stop my trees from growing
> ...



What a fine example of an ignorant Englishman with his fuck-all assumptions who likes to jerk off to star trek 

1) Calm down and relax grower.... you don't come off as a cannabis user with your aggressive attitude IMO/ maybe you should smoke some of those large defoliated buds instead of selling it all......we're just growing weed here, it's not heart surgery----A hardy C3 plant will grow/flower wonderfully just left alone--I don't think your "trees" will suffer in your absence.

2) Felt that the quote was relevant to the presently "well-mannered" discussion going on in here....my bad for trolling....Do I consider it a fact? well this comes from a dutch marijuana botanist(30+ years working in the field)===currently working on the Sativex project as a ..........wait for it........ marijuana botanist.....still won't tell u who he is/ like I said study more

3) If I wrote the quote based on MY OWN EXPERIENCES would you believe it then???......probably call me a cowardly-grower-liar-faggot-nofacts-cocksucker...let's not forget noob..

4)UB may be a prick sometimes but MOST of his methods/advice/suggestions are proven and used in the US AG. industry......Oh wait the AG community wants to harvest smallest yields per acre and use the most resources to do so; RIGHT??lol.......I worked 9 years in the PA wine industry/doesn't mean shit really! but enough too know that MOST of UB's info is practiced on crops.........like I said I don't know why UB even bother's anymore...

You want to continue to "leaf" your girls.....go ahead, but don't spread misinformation that it increases yields.......We only EVER defoliated/applied fungicide when we had extreme RH/rainy seasons at early flowering stages........but that doesn't mean shit either .....you keep removing leaves and i'll allow 300000000+ years of cannabis evolution/natural selection do it's "thing" on mine..... No biggie


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## stumpjumper (Dec 5, 2012)

Of course my question gets ignored.


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## yesum (Dec 6, 2012)

I know for a fact that buds that get direct light do better than ones that do not. I have done a few grows and have seen it.

Others seem to have seen the opposite. How can that be? 

Wish someone would do a scientific test of plucking vs not. 

Comparing a peach to a bud seems dumb. Plucking leaves a few at a time over a period of months would be time and effort prohibitive. Might be one of the reasons agriculture does not do this besides the not working thing.


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## colonuggs (Dec 6, 2012)

my bro made a mistake and took off ALL the big fan leaves off 6 of our plants after only 4 weeks of flower... 

we have 12 more plants... same strain.. same phase of flower that have the leaves left on.

I will post pictures in 2 weeks showing the difference in nug size and growth if any 

I usually strip off the leaves the last 2 weeks of the grow but only with certain strains








But on the flip side you have strains that dont have alot of fan leaves due to genetics but produce huge colas


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> But on the flip side you have strains that dont have alot of fan leaves due to genetics but produce huge colas


Looks like a lot of fan leaves to me. Again, fan leaves are the most efficient photon collectors of any green matter on cannabis. Ever wonder why mama nature created such large photon collectors? Ever wonder why she extended those solar collectors into the environment using long arms (petioles)? Dats right kiddies, because long extensions of a large surface area exposes the leaf to photons in the most efficient and effective manner. Mother nature is smart, as opposed to a bunch of dumb asses that are determined to work against her using tricks, gimmicks, and snake oils.

My avatar is a good example. I retained almost all fan leaves until harvest, and it paid off with a solid, 5" wide large, super dense cola and solid chunky lower lateral buds. Of course that profile is genetically driven once you have the gardening thingie down pat. Can't do that with a pure sativa though. 

(not singling you out. Ya done good.)

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Of course my question gets ignored.


I've answered it a million times, with each crop of noobies. I've answered it here but you can't accept 'no' to your irresponsible postulations.

Look, research hormonal processes and apical dominance concepts, OK? The reason lower buds are airy has nothing to do with the amount of light received. (That's yet another stupid cannabis forum myth that won't die, not unlike the stupid "when do I flush?" drill noobs can't shake.) They are light and airy because they are the last to push and the least "important" plant part regarding nutritional, hormonal, protein, amino acid, etc. inputs from the plant.

Perhaps electrolytes will help your airy buds. Folks say plants crave them.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2012)

yesum said:


> Comparing a peach to a bud seems dumb.


Why, because this "foreign concept" flies into the face of those that don't have a broad exposure to plants, to horticulture? Name a plant and I bet I've grown it in my 40+ years of gardening.

Cannabis is just another foliar annual that flowers when it's time...... like basil, cilantro, tomato. Doesn't matter whether it's an orchid, rose, apple, grape vine, tomato....the reproduction part of a plant is driven by the health and mass of its foliage (root system given). 

UB


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## akula (Dec 6, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Why do they green up, mature and get fatter once they start getting direct light, if it isn't because the fan leaf is gone? They wouldn't have when the fan leaf was there blocking the light.



I posted a story of how anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias with my blackberry bush and this is a prime example of that. 

Here think about this for a second. A bud started forming while it was in the shade of a large fan leaf. You come along and notice it is small because it has formed long after the stronger taller older buds up high. So you think you will help it along and remove some of those evil fan leaves that are shading it and, in your assumption, keeping it down. Then you notice (on the bud that you just recently did notice in the first place) that it starts to grow and plump up. 

Here is you confirmation bias; you are making an assumption that removing the fan leaf was what allowed this newly grown baby bud to grow. The fact of the matter is that if you had failed to notice, the bud would have also grown.....because all the buds are growing and plumping up. It was small because it was immature. You cannot make the argument that you helped this bud along, because honestly, you have no idea if you did or not. Thats confirmation bias, because you could just as easily make the claim that if you hadnt removed the leaf, the bud would have been 10 times its final size.


----------



## stumpjumper (Dec 6, 2012)

akula said:


> I posted a story of how anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias with my blackberry bush and this is a prime example of that.
> 
> Here think about this for a second. A bud started forming while it was in the shade of a large fan leaf. You come along and notice it is small because it has formed long after the stronger taller older buds up high. So you think you will help it along and remove some of those evil fan leaves that are shading it and, in your assumption, keeping it down. Then you notice (on the bud that you just recently did notice in the first place) that it starts to grow and plump up.
> 
> Here is you confirmation bias; you are making an assumption that removing the fan leaf was what allowed this newly grown baby bud to grow. The fact of the matter is that if you had failed to notice, the bud would have also grown.....because all the buds are growing and plumping up. It was small because it was immature. You cannot make the argument that you helped this bud along, because honestly, you have no idea if you did or not. Thats confirmation bias, because you could just as easily make the claim that if you hadnt removed the leaf, the bud would have been 10 times its final size.


 Wrong, I've grown enough plants to know what those little shaded buds end up being. I haven't always defoliated. Nice try though.


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## akula (Dec 6, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Wrong, I've grown enough plants to know what those little shaded buds end up being. I haven't always defoliated. Nice try though.


Confirmation bias
Inductive reasoning
Appeal from authority

That's impressive unless you actually were not trying to hit as many logical fallacies as one could.

Let's try this in a different angle ok? Since we can all agree that fan leaves are the main 
photosynthesisers, let's discuss the mechanics of botany that prohibit this to benefit the high priority sites, or the
calyxes. In other words, does photosynthesis only benefit local systems?

**edit my phone jacked that up and I can't fix it. My apologies for the spacing.


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## beginner.legal.growop (Dec 6, 2012)

oHsiN666 said:


> i want to say this is my best grow to date. the fan leafs usually never got to big or just died off prematurely. well, this round they are huge!! almost too huge. i have heard that fan leafs produce energy which provided the plant growth and nutrient flow. or something along them lines. dont quote me. but i heard they help a lot more then people think. is this true? is it counterproductive to cut off the lower to mid huger larger fan leafs? what if they are blocking light? i have chopped off the lower 40-50% growth. i have topped my plants, or FIMmed i should say, at least 2-3 times. so they are quite bushy. so there is not many fan leafs left, but the ones that are left are big and are blocking light. the ones up top are blocking light to the middle of the plant. i dont want to ruin a quite possibly perfect grow. but i would like light to penetrate better.



Those fan leaves you growers are so fond of removing are basically like sugar factories. They are large for a reason. grabbing the most amount of light and distributing it around the plant. Watch videos by ed rosenthal and other growers who will tell you not to remove them.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 6, 2012)

beginner.legal.growop said:


> Those fan leaves you growers are so fond of removing are basically like sugar factories. They are large for a reason. grabbing the most amount of light and distributing it around the plant. Watch videos by ed rosenthal and other growers who will tell you not to remove them.



blah blah blah man.... Have any experience or are you just book smart too?


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 6, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ever wonder why mama nature created such large photon collectors? Ever wonder why she extended those solar collectors into the environment using long arms (petioles)? Dats right kiddies, because long extensions of a large surface area exposes the leaf to photons in the most efficient and effective manner. Mother nature is smart, as opposed to a bunch of dumb asses that are determined to work against her using tricks, gimmicks, and snake oils.


How did mama know we would be growing indoors in small spaces and artificial lights?


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 6, 2012)

akula said:


> I posted a story of how anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias with my blackberry bush and this is a prime example of that.
> 
> Here think about this for a second. A bud started forming while it was in the shade of a large fan leaf. You come along and notice it is small because it has formed long after the stronger taller older buds up high. So you think you will help it along and remove some of those evil fan leaves that are shading it and, in your assumption, keeping it down. Then you notice (on the bud that you just recently did notice in the first place) that it starts to grow and plump up.
> 
> Here is you confirmation bias; you are making an assumption that removing the fan leaf was what allowed this newly grown baby bud to grow. The fact of the matter is that if you had failed to notice, the bud would have also grown.....because all the buds are growing and plumping up. It was small because it was immature. You cannot make the argument that you helped this bud along, because honestly, you have no idea if you did or not. Thats confirmation bias, because you could just as easily make the claim that if you hadnt removed the leaf, the bud would have been 10 times its final size.


This above statement has a preexisting confirmation bias.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

beginner.legal.growop said:


> Those fan leaves you growers are so fond of removing are basically like sugar factories. They are large for a reason. grabbing the most amount of light and distributing it around the plant. Watch videos by ed rosenthal and other growers who will tell you not to remove them.


Exactly. Read post 356 and 357 on the previous page on what makes a plant tick. Guys like stumpjumper do not have a clue when it comes to hormonal processes and concepts like apical dominance. 

UB


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 7, 2012)

Firstly UB we do not have the intensity the sun has...so comparing peaches to cannabis shows your level of knowledge. If you are not removing leaves in an indoor enviorment you are loosing bud size, not weight. Popcorn buds are due to lack of penatration and good growing practices.

Yes the big leaves are storage divices but at a point they take more energy than they give so by removing them at the right time, not only are you allowing light to penatrate a little deeper into the canopy but secondly and more important it allows for energy transfer to the bud sites.

Your right UB, your leaves have ten times the surface area as bud sites but at a certain point the plant has more important things to worry about like buds and it is at that point leaves should be removed.

Outdoor applications differ completely to Indoor techniques, so if you enjoy trimming all that popcorn and like looking like useless grower who can't grow decent bud then listen to UB advice, personally I like a quick trim of monster buds.




Personally I would rather produce this kind of result then be sitting there for hours on end with all that popcorn bud. Right now with the proper removal one tray of 3 girls produce 36-40zips, thats over 2 pounds from a couple of 600's, I can't even get close to that if I was to leave leaves alone.

Each to their own. Learning from your mistakes is part of the game staying stuck in a rut get you knowhere.


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## ae86 grower (Dec 7, 2012)

the only way any grower reading this thread is going to know if defoiliation works is to try it, i myself was afraid to after reading some threads but decided to give it a go, once i had the hang of it, not taking to many at a time and even just removeing half the offending leaf or bonsaiìng it so the plant doesnt even resemble a cannabis plant i did notice the increae in yeild, popcorn buds but much fatter than they were on the same strain and side by side grows without leafing...

its like topping and cropping etc, some people say do it others that its wrong....


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Firstly UB we do not have the intensity the sun has...so comparing peaches to cannabis shows your level of knowledge.


You obviously don't shit about my "level of knowledge" but based on your statements, I I know yours. You have noob thought. Grow outdoors. I did recently, and like every inside garden, the lower buds were very airy and light. It's just what happens based on a plant's apical dominance factors. Has NOTHING to do with light. 

You and your other ignorant friends are more interested in continuing one of the many lame cannabis forum paradigms than reading a book on horticulture. You see what you want to see, you believe what the herd tells you to believe. Here, read up on the function of a leaf - http://www.preservearticles.com/201106188219/what-are-the-five-most-essential-functions-of-leaf.html



> Popcorn buds are due to lack of penatration and good growing practices.[/


Wrong. 



> Yes the big leaves are storage divices but at a point they take more energy than they give so by removing them at the right time, not only are you allowing light to penatrate a little deeper into the canopy but secondly and more important it allows for energy transfer to the bud sites.


Cannabis leaves are NOT storage devices, roots and stems are (think carrot or celery). Cacti and succulents leaves are storage devices. Cannabis leaves are producers of simple and complex carbos, proteins, etc.......... period.

What's ironical is you guys sit there rant with your anecdotal evidence and to further your argument, post a plant (s) that are chocked full of fan leaves! Hilarious!

View attachment 2433611

Come on now, whatcha waiting for? You need to get to pluckin' !!! Scared LOL?

UB


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## Murfy (Dec 7, 2012)

if defoliation-

is a valid technique, then why the enthusiastic use of pesticide. all those little buggers are doing is defoliating your plant for you. like slave labor.

try this. let the mites eat your plant, and by the end,all the fan leaves will be dead, and falling. i'd bet the ratio of size of popcorn to cola has went up.

think there's any way to get warblers to nest in my flower room?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

ae86 grower said:


> its like topping and cropping etc, some people say do it others that its wrong....


And not one cannabis forum member has ever referenced a quality, non-partisan empirical study like Author R.C Clarke, "Marijuana Botany" nor have they conducted a bonafide experiment on their own.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't count and like Jorge Cervantes says, "this isn't hearsay, it's science".


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## Huel Perkins (Dec 7, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> I figured the guys who cut their leaves off might welcome mites into their garden lol.





Murfy said:


> if defoliation-
> 
> is a valid technique, then why the enthusiastic use of pesticide. all those little buggers are doing is defoliating your plant for you. like slave labor.
> 
> ...


Mites are what plants crave!


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## ae86 grower (Dec 7, 2012)

what is sceince without experimentation and the need for truth and the need to dis prove a theroy, if you really want to dis prove this for yourself then you will have to try it and not just go by the book, i respect you ub, alot of your stuff works and works good, but this is a technique that works too, and again not to strip the plant bare but remove the sometimes hugh and othertimes plentyful fan or sun leaves, its no more than would happen should a pest get to them in the wild...


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## skunkd0c (Dec 7, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> What a fine example of an ignorant Englishman with his fuck-all assumptions who likes to jerk off to star trek
> 
> 1) Calm down and relax grower.... you don't come off as a cannabis user with your aggressive attitude IMO/ maybe you should smoke some of those large defoliated buds instead of selling it all......we're just growing weed here, it's not heart surgery----A hardy C3 plant will grow/flower wonderfully just left alone--I don't think your "trees" will suffer in your absence.
> 
> ...


LOL no need to use such profanity, mr botanicals 

you have started off your comments by instructing me to calm down, then you follow on with lots of childish insults and profanity 
seems hypocritical 

your text looks more like the rantings from some teenager well rehearsed in gangsta speak, forgive me if your claims lack credibility 
something about an expert from Holland .. perhaps i should lay out a red carpet or something 
only the other week some chump from this very forum told me that he was the grandchild of Jorge Cervantes

your lack of reading comprehension, perhaps English is not your first language , anyway your ignorance is astounding
i have only suggested that people experiment with their plants and not follow the closed minded words of idiots like YOU 
please re-read all my posts so that you may bring yourself upto speed with the rest of us 

i hope your plants grow well and you get over whatever problem you have with English people 
thank you for your unsolicited semi literate advice
i shall file it along with the rantings from all the other semi literate imbeciles i encounter whilst enjoying this lovely forum 

peace


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

Huel Perkins said:


> Mites are what plants crave!


They especially crave ELECTROMYTES!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

ae86 grower said:


> what is sceince without experimentation and the need for truth and the need to dis prove a theroy, if you really want to dis prove this for yourself then you will have to try it and not just go by the book, i respect you ub, alot of your stuff works and works good, but this is a technique that works too, and again not to strip the plant bare but remove the sometimes hugh and othertimes plentyful fan or sun leaves, its no more than would happen should a pest get to them in the wild...


Tell me, how does the decision to remove a bunch of large photon collectors compare with buds receiving light regarding yields? It makes no botanical sense, only sense to folks driven by dreams, hype, and snake oils.....and so goes the cannabis industry.

If you can verify your claims with scientific data..... field trials replicated 3 times using clones against a control group in a carefully controlled lab setting, bring it on. Like I said, the folks beating their chests the hardest are those who have left the fan leaves on. I think they're only here to argue. Certainly won't prove anything to folks with a broad botanical base.

UB


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## perdrick l. hapley (Dec 7, 2012)

If you think defoliation has never increased yeild in any situation, you have no understanding of the inverse square rule, how ATP and energy storing molecules are transported through plants, or the efficiency with which this is done.

Different plants like different conditions. No two plants are the exact same, even if they are genetic 'clones' because of epigenetics. Read some newer books UB, the world of 'botany' you love so much has left you behind.


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## purphayz (Dec 7, 2012)

remove all shade leaves blocking light n remove all lower branching ive been growing for a while i always get more wieght if properly trained


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## ae86 grower (Dec 7, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Tell me, how does the decision to remove a bunch of large photon collectors compare with buds receiving light regarding yields? It makes no botanical sense, only sense to folks driven by dreams, hype, and snake oils.....and so goes the cannabis industry.
> 
> If you can verify your claims with scientific data..... field trials replicated 3 times using clones against a control group in a carefully controlled lab setting, bring it on. Like I said, the folks beating their chests the hardest are those who have left the fan leaves on. I think they're only here to argue. Certainly won't prove anything to folks with a broad botanical base.
> 
> UB




in a lab ...no, but i have done it with seeds of the same strain in my grow room at home, and as i`m not a botinist or anything like one, mechanic by trade in fact.
but from being into growing for a long time and learning from alot of training on alot of plants and getting yeilds as little as 10g per plant to 60g per plant at a max height of 1ft... with different methods, defoiliating being one i can say it works from actually trying it...

your just nay saying, as you yourself can`t produce any side by side grows to say it doesn`t work... and you haven`t tried it for yourself to see...


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## akula (Dec 7, 2012)

Awesome finally someone who is going to argue using science and logic rather then simply flawed anecdotal examples. 


If you dont agree with defoliation....




perdrick l. hapley said:


> *&#8230;.you have no understanding of the inverse square rule*


 

I am a little confused on this one. Are you saying that removing fan leaves can decrease the distance of calyxes to the light source? You are going to have to fill me in on exactly how this works. But once you do, please explain how this decrease in distance of the calyxes can overcome this, and then overcome the decrease of those calyxes and sugar leaves photosynthesis power, compared to the fan leaves. I am sure someone here can do the math and figure this one out. I am not that smart to do it myself, and it might take me the rest of the year. 





perdrick l. hapley said:


> &#8230;... *how ATP and energy storing molecules are transported through plants*



Well I do have a trivial understanding of adenosine triphosphate and how it stores energy and how enzymes will instruct the phosphates to release the eldest part of its group in the production of proteins. What I dont understand is how this would interfere with the translocation and the phloem transport system? I am pretty sure that the phloem system would have no bearing on the adenosine triphosphate process itself. And in fact, in my elementary knowledge, I understand that ATP and the phloems work in conjunction as a system to quickly transport the proteins from the photosynthesis sites to the storage (roots/stems) or a sink, in this case the calyxes. I am unaware of any limitations that take locality into consideration. What I mean is that I am unaware of a smart network, or a limitation to only transport locally in relation to the ATP process. This would take some level of intelligence I do not believe plants posses (though my cannabis plants are pretty damn smart).  


Of course most flower or fruit sinks have zero photosynthesis ability and have no issue with this process, or it only working locally. I know cannabis has some photosynthesis ability in the calyxes (basically almost zero) but some limited in the small sugar leaves, but always the most by far in the fan leaves. This is the only job the fan leaves have. Even the sugar leaves are there to provide perches for insects and even trapping for pollen etc. If you have some information on the lower photosynthesizing sugar leaves having a retarding agent, keeping this process local only, I would love to read it.


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## Woomeister (Dec 7, 2012)

Fan leaf removal will not, I repeat NOT help your grow. Light will penetrate the leaves...


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## skunkd0c (Dec 7, 2012)

reading books and quoting from them masquerading yourself as an intellectual is a popular past-time for many a troll on this wonderful forum
personally i would let the finished product speak for itself
it's kind of ironic that the plants grown by these budding scientists at RIU appear no more impressive than those grown by us mere mortals

marijuana botany makes a good paperweight , some very outdated information in this book, i bought it around 20 years ago along with cannabis alchemy , another popular book at the time
although some of it is of interest , why uncle thinks it is so wonderful i have no clue, does he think he has the only copy lol ? 
its a shame brick top is not here to copy and paste us some of his expert knowledge too







peace


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## stumpjumper (Dec 7, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Exactly. Read post 356 and 357 on the previous page on what makes a plant tick. Guys like stumpjumper do not have a clue when it comes to hormonal processes and concepts like apical dominance.
> 
> UB


You're a fucking idiot too.. Take a look at my grow and tell me which branches are the apical dominant.. I control the apical dominance of my plants to maintain an even canopy of multiple colas. But I don't know shit about it huh? Your plant doesn't impress me as much as mine do. Should anything else matter to me? Your grasping for straws now, apical dominance has shit to do with defoliating. Go back and reread your book. You sound ignorant.



Murfy said:


> if defoliation-
> 
> is a valid technique, then why the enthusiastic use of pesticide. all those little buggers are doing is defoliating your plant for you. like slave labor.
> 
> ...


Big difference Murf.. Mites are constantly sucking the life out of a plant, cutting off a few leaves to allow some light penetration is quite the contrary. Nice try though, you and Huel... Big difference.



skunkd0c said:


> reading books and quoting from them masquerading yourself as an intellectual is a popular past-time for many a troll on this wonderful forum
> personally i would let the finished product speak for itself
> it's kind of ironic that the plants grown by these budding scientists at RIU appear no more impressive than those grown by us mere mortals
> 
> ...


They wont even acknowledge your plant if you do something that goes beyond their limited understanding of growing cannabis. Why confine yourself to the pages of a fucking book.. Oh so you quote it and act smart lol. It doesn't work when you're wrong though, sorry.


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## keebo3000 (Dec 7, 2012)

well here is a medical grower with his input
[video=youtube_share;alRSi2BwUT8]http://youtu.be/alRSi2BwUT8[/video]


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## stumpjumper (Dec 7, 2012)

keebo3000 said:


> well here is a medical grower with his input
> [video=youtube_share;alRSi2BwUT8]http://youtu.be/alRSi2BwUT8[/video]


Way too new school for most in this room... Nice video, too bad he doesn't show the results




Anyways, back to Apical dominance since Uncle Bend wanted to change the subject, here's a prime example of a bunch of plants that I have controlled and trained each axillary branch to think it was the apical branch, bud or what-not.. Of course you can't really "trick" something that doesn't have the ability to think, it's really all about the plants growth hormones or "auxin" and "cytokinin". This is all for another thread, and there's probably one buried in here some where. 

UB claims I don't know shit and I am a noob grower and all that other shit.. He missed the part where I stated my experience as a lead propagator for a nursery/greenhouse for a couple years. Yeah couple years big whoop. I couldn't have learned much. I couldn't have learned much in the garden since I was 3 years old every growing season either.

Here's that prime example I was talking about. You'll have to excuse the missing fan leaves that weren't in a state of necrosis when I cut them. I actually cut them to get some light down below. Seems to be helping, as usual.


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## woodsmantoker (Dec 8, 2012)

UncleBuck said:


> 12H2O + 6CO2 ---> C6H12O6 + 6H2O + 6O2
> 
> C6H12O6 = glucose molecule (plant biomass)


Really buck?  You forgot the most important part...An explanation. This is the equation for photosynthesis however, 
The correct equation is- 
6CO2 + 12H2O ( in presence of Sunlight and Chlorophyll ) = C6H12O6 + 6H2O + O6

Just saying..


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## woodsmantoker (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> And not one cannabis forum member has ever referenced a quality, non-partisan empirical study like Author R.C Clarke, "Marijuana Botany" nor have they conducted a bonafide experiment on their own.
> 
> Anecdotal evidence doesn't count and like Jorge Cervantes says, "this isn't hearsay, it's science".


Wildlife Biology / Environmental Science Double Major from the University of Alaska Fairbanks... 
I most certainly have! 

And to be precis, I have done a study on the inhibitory effect of flowering and fruit growth on photosynthesis.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

I always keep my leafs and my weed is always better then everyone else and they always complain about the leafs when they see my outdoor. If its not all the way yellow and you pull it off you are doing harm to your plant!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> You're a fucking idiot too.. Take a look at my grow and tell me which branches are the apical dominant..


The plant material at the top is always dominant, which is what I said regarding WHERE the plant is focusing, directing, its "energy" which translates - the lower plant parts will get the leftovers so to speak. Again, the production of the flowers at the lowest levels on the "trunk" has nothing to do with shading from fan leaves. It is driven by chronological development and hormonal processes.



> I control the apical dominance of my plants to maintain an even canopy of multiple colas.


No you don't, unless you top whereby the hormones are redirected to the uppermost areas. See my topping thread.

Would someone with a horticultural background please explain to this tard what I meant.

I quit.....


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Way too new school for most in this room... Nice video, too bad he doesn't show the results
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where is the plants growth hormones forum I've done lots of research on this. Why I will always use superthrive, unless I'm growing organic bunk weed.

I have yet to smoke any good organic better then chem hydro.


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## woodsmantoker (Dec 8, 2012)

Just gotta toss this in, and have never mentioned it before now:

Cervantes did a "cup" in Lansing MI where he awarded a "Dale" the grower. "Dale" and his pal "Jeff" invited me to co-instruct a grow class with them last year. Quickly I learned a thing or two about these guys and Cervantes....

I was later asked to assist in a green house build and grow where "Dale" jumped in as the garden attendant in the face of "disaster" when I was away for a while. After a few weeks away, I returned and was approached by Dale and told quote "Your going to be mad at me, I put some things on "your" garden that you didn't ask for and you may not be able to consider it fully organic anymore...". He then went on to say that powdery mildew was infecting the garden and that the product (green cure) left behind for use, was not a suitable choice, and that he was using Serenade instead. I walked in and the garden looked like it had been snowed on...(I assume they spent the "oh shit fund" on Serenade until it was gone, then gave up) I walked away from this one at that point, and with an education and understanding that taking anyone, even legendary "experts" like Jorge, with a grain of salt is a good idea.

Sorry for the subject change folks. Ill leave this to you. This thread reviews a commonly asked question that for "15 plus" years of posting, would have me less than interested in arguing about anymore. I was done after a few years. I scrog, I remove foliage. If you care to know, ask me.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

woodsmantoker said:


> Just gotta toss this in, and have never mentioned it before now:
> 
> Cervantes did a "cup" in Lansing MI where he awarded a "Dale" the grower. "Dale" and his pal "Jeff" invited me to co-instruct a grow class with them last year. Quickly I learned a thing or two about these guys and Cervantes....
> 
> ...


PM is hard to control with organics.... 
LMFAO all you have to do is floral spray with pH+ water....

Dude that is so shitty... "mad" more like he rammed a knife in your heart, or your lover for years just cheated on you.... you know the feeling.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

http://www.serenadegarden.com/wp-content/themes/sg/labels-msds/con-label.pdf

serenade is OMRI listed organic btw


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2012)

woodsmantoker said:


> .....He then went on to say that powdery mildew was infecting the garden and that the product (green cure) left behind for use, was not a suitable choice, and that he was using Serenade instead. I walked in and the garden looked like it had been snowed on...(I assume they spent the "oh shit fund" on Serenade until it was gone, then gave up) I walked away from this one at that point, and with an education and understanding that taking anyone, even legendary "experts" like Jorge, with a grain of salt is a good idea.


So you took your football and went home, eh? Serenade is an effective product. If it's labeled for use on edibles, especially tobacco products, then it's safe and should be used as directed on the label. Now, if you're hung up on the typical green movement crap....no amount of logic will convince you otherwise. It's all about "feel-good" with organic purists, nothing short than another lame cult.

I've sprayed with Captan or T-methyl on cannabis.

UB


----------



## woodsmantoker (Dec 8, 2012)

^^^ Funny too, I bought cases of lemon juice and had several backpack sprayers, I was told it would "dissolve the resin glands" . So I left and made lots of Lemonaid!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> http://www.serenadegarden.com/wp-content/themes/sg/labels-msds/con-label.pdf
> 
> serenade is OMRI listed organic btw


It's a very broad spectrum fungicide.....good call by Jorge et al. This suggests there was some bad vibes going on in the group. I could never do a partnership like this. It's like the old saying that is so true - "do not ever lend money to family or friends". Just doesn't work out. 

UB


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> So you took your football and went home, eh? Serenade is an effective product. If it's labeled for use on edibles, especially tobacco products, then it's safe and should be used as directed on the label. Now, if you're hung up on the typical green movement crap....no amount of logic will convince you otherwise. It's all about "feel-good" with organic purists, nothing short than another lame cult.
> 
> I've sprayed with Captan or T-methyl on cannabis.
> 
> UB


[video=youtube;8Zqe4ZV9LDs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs[/video]


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## woodsmantoker (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't have a garden or a football!  
I assist others free of charge and try to stick to their game plan. Plan was to keep that one organic and in return I would have images for my thread here at RIU. Giant Scrog Garden. She was content with Dale, I was content with other gardens I was overseeing, and we all lived on. End of story.

Serenade works great, we just were not suppose to buy for this garden, it was a fully supplied deal brother. Dale charged the sick woman for "curing the problem". But she was good with it, so were all good.


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You obviously don't shit about my "level of knowledge" but based on your statements, I I know yours. You have noob thought. Grow outdoors. I did recently, and like every inside garden, the lower buds were very airy and light. It's just what happens based on a plant's apical dominance factors. Has NOTHING to do with light.


Light has everything to do with it! Manipulating the genetics of cannabis is what INDOOR growing is all about. Genetics allow a plant to produce x amount in optimal conditions, now you as the grower(god) decides what type of growth. Lower bud site can be manipulated in a way that you now produce the weight heigher on the plant thus increasing bud size while eliminating the useless popcorn, by telling me you get popcorn outdoors speaks to your abilities or lack of. Sad you come here with bad info and cannot learn from someone with greater experience or ability, your loss. 



Uncle Ben said:


> You and your other ignorant friends are more interested in continuing one of the many lame cannabis forum paradigms than reading a book on horticulture. You see what you want to see, you believe what the herd tells you to believe. Here, read up on the function of a leaf.


WRONG AGAIN! My background is in the AG industry and my lab work and studies go way deeper than what you are reading on the net... but keep believing what you read from the kiddies who thinks he can grow a 1zip plant then post online about their GREAT technique or some out dated practices from a gone era. Manipulation of crops has grown in population in the last twenty years for only one reason INCREASED food production.



Uncle Ben said:


> Cannabis leaves are NOT storage devices, roots and stems are (think carrot or celery). Cacti and succulents leaves are storage devices. Cannabis leaves are producers of simple and complex carbos, proteins, etc.......... period.


Gees! you sure can get your fact mixed up. You are correct in the thinking they are used for, but skewed on their job exactly. At a certain point in the life cycle they become a detriment to the plant and is at that point a good grower will reconize this and help their plant. Some strains will actually show you, have you ever wonderd why some leaf stems start to turn purple at a certain point?The plant is shutting down those leaves to increase growth elsewhere. Sorry roots do not store anything, their the transportation hub for moving product up the chain to be used or stored. Stems are like your backbone or at least someone that has one. You talk about fruits and veggies and make comparisons to them so much it makes me wonder if you grow cannabis at all?



Uncle Ben said:


> What's ironical is you guys sit there rant with your anecdotal evidence and to further your argument, post a plant (s) that are chocked full of fan leaves! Hilarious!
> UB


This statement has said it all, you can't tell the difference between a plant that has been severly manipulated and one that isn't. This plant was stripped clean at the start of flower and a practice I call controlled removal right up to harvest. What you seem to think is lots of leaves is the re-growth from the manipulation. This is how my girls enter my flower chamber








You are the one that seems scared, my technique and ability speak volumes for advocating PROPER LEAF REMOVAL

Enjoy your popcorn bud if you want, but stop giving people bad advice from an era long gone.

Obviously you should stick to fruits and vegetables since your knowledge base seems to come from that. I think there a veggie grower forum somewhere...ask your internet buddies I'm sure they can point you in the right direction, after their diaper change that is...


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

woodsmantoker said:


> I don't have a garden or a football!
> I assist others free of charge and try to stick to their game plan. Plan was to keep that one organic and in return I would have images for my thread here at RIU. Giant Scrog Garden. She was content with Dale, I was content with other gardens I was overseeing, and we all lived on. End of story.
> 
> Serenade works great, we just were not suppose to buy for this garden, it was a fully supplied deal brother. Dale charged the sick woman for "curing the problem". But she was good with it, so were all good.


so your upset they spend money on something when you feel green cure would have sufficed?
I feel all you need is some pH up and water...


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Light has everything to do with it! Manipulating the genetics of cannabis is what INDOOR growing is all about. Genetics allow a plant to produce x amount in optimal conditions, now you as the grower(god) decides what type of growth. Lower bud site can be manipulated in a way that you now produce the weight heigher on the plant thus increasing bud size while eliminating the useless popcorn, by telling me you get popcorn outdoors speaks to your abilities or lack of. Sad you come here with bad info and cannot learn from someone with greater experience or ability, your loss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


... what happened to the bottoms? that there looks like less yield to me.


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

Me too, those plants look like crap. I want to see the badass buds that they supposedly grow.


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## woodsmantoker (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat, you missed the point, friend. Not upset a bit. I lost nothing. I "assist" upon request from individuals I agree to help. 

Granted, the sick woman ended up with a giant crop of powdery mildew, that likely left someone a bit upset. But hey, they are selling it fast in a local "compassion club" without fail. Why would they be? 

I am not going to elaborate on my points here, just simply enjoying you folks company, so I am here. HELLO!


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

woodsmantoker said:


> hexthat, you missed the point, friend.


What was the point? lol


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 8, 2012)

Well I wish I had a pic of those girls finished. I run a perpetual system that pulls off weekly. Here is a pic of the same technique finished that same week.



As you can see the timeline in the pics are of a set of girls going in and this is a set comming off. My technique was the same on both and is still the same until I find a better practice. Look at the girl behind her and you can see the shaved legs.

Whatever you take from the bottom you will get back further up the plant, you can I repeat, you can take this technique and leaf removal too far for sure but once you learn the curve you will never smoke or trim popcorn again.

This girl by the way produced over 1 pound herself.

PROPER leaf removal and timming can result in huge yeilds...so experiment a little and find what works best for your system.

But don't be scared to try something new and experience it for yourself first hand.


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## woodsmantoker (Dec 8, 2012)

Hex,
Jorge's cup winner, failed at removing a powdery mildew problem in a green house..A discredit to Jorge? No, simply a insight as to how things work, and how things can be deceiving. The fella charged a sick woman for a product that was suppose to work better than "diligence" and "diversity in product usage" which were my only recommendations, after I had already insured that there were products to be used (and books to reference). I think this is where you all sensed my dissatisfaction and if you at all know me it would only be obvious I would have a problem with that. Though, she was happy, and that helped me be OK with it, and at the end of the day, long after I was tinkering in other projects, pounds and pounds of mildew engulfed cannabis were harvested for sale at a compassion club. That's all. 

So I did what I said I wouldn't and elaborated, but folks I love the chat but have to run. Thanks for the breakfast date Uncles! 

Sorry again to the OP for the thread jack. I am out! 

Woodsmantoker~


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## stumpjumper (Dec 8, 2012)

You can shove proof right up his ass but he wont believe you.

Of course apical dominance makes the top buds recieve most of the energy to grow. But you're still denying the fact that when you open up the light to that little whispy popcorn bud down below it IMMEDIATELY starts to green up, fatten and frost up and mature with the rest of the buds. Why, because the little leaves on that bud finally start getting some light to make it grow. When you strip a fan leaf there are still leaves on the buds to take it's place.

You need to try it instead of arguing about something your wrong about. As smart as you are Uncle Bud, you're too set in stone man.. Why don't you try to experiment a little bit. Just once.. So you quit making youself out to be foolish man. I know you're smart about plants, but you aren't always right, not this time. 


It would only take one try to change your mind.. But I think you'd hack the plant all to fuck and deliberately fuck it up just so you could say "see I told you it didn't work" lol.


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

I agree totally with partial defoliation. I've seen buds stuck under huge fan leaves pale yellow from being smothered.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Pirate said:


> I agree totally with partial defoliation. I've seen buds stuck under huge fan leaves pale yellow from being smothered.



I've smoked fluffy buds that were white/yellow from no light on the very bottom branchs get me fucked to space were as the tops just got me high...


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> I've smoked fluffy buds that were white/yellow from no light on the very bottom branchs get me fucked to space were as the tops just got me high...


But if removing the one leaf that was covering it fattened it up 4x is it worth that leaf's sacrifice? What if its a cluster of nugs under the leaf? Some leaves are too big to simply tuck to the side.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

uncle pirate said:


> but if removing the one leaf that was covering it fattened it up 4x is it worth that leaf's sacrifice? What if its a cluster of nugs under the leaf? Some leaves are too big to simply tuck to the side.


*light degrades thc!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## perdrick l. hapley (Dec 8, 2012)

that is so funny


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## stumpjumper (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> *light degrades thc!!!!!!!!!!!*


So go grow your shit in the dark and report back on how great it is when your done.. Next.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

The "shade leafs" grow them in the dark and feed them the sugars they make from the light creating better weed.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

Take some botany classes or better yet 6th grade science.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 8, 2012)

Haha another booksmart dumb-ass.. You might wanna try some experience..


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> *light degrades thc!!!!!!!!!!!*


Not on a living plant numbskull.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Pirate said:


> Not on a living plant numbskull.


Your a numbskull... haha 
why do you think they go amber? they just magically do it?


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## stumpjumper (Dec 8, 2012)

Wow they get smarter and smarter..


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> Your a numbskull... haha
> why do you think they go amber? they just magically do it?


The magic of aging. It's called a life cycle.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

i really had to read threw that damn old book to show this.... marijuana botany

"...an enzyme system which quickly converts CBD-acid to THC-acid, favoring THC-acid accumulation. Fiber strains lack this enzyme activity, so CBD-acid accumulalion is favored since there is little con version to THC-acid. These same enzyme systems are also sensitive to changes in heat and light."


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

I've read stuff about it else were but you made me made so im getting off. I'll be back on after I drank my anger to boiling point to boil it out woo hoo alcohol yeast shit.


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> i really had to read threw that damn old book to show this.... marijuana botany
> 
> "...an enzyme system which quickly converts CBD-acid to THC-acid, favoring THC-acid accumulation. Fiber strains lack this enzyme activity, so CBD-acid accumulalion is favored since there is little con version to THC-acid. These same enzyme systems are also sensitive to changes in heat and light."


Good thing you wasted your time doing that.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 8, 2012)

I called him book smart? lol.. I might've been wrong.


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

> studies by Brenneisen (1984)...difference in UV-B absorption between THC and CBD, and the absorptive properties of CBC proved considerably greater than either. The relationship between the cannabinoids and UV-B is not so direct as first supposed. Two other explanations must now be considered. Even if CBD absorbs on par with THC, in areas of high ambient UV-B, the former compound may be more rapidly degraded. This could lower the availability of CBD present or render it the less energetically efficient compound to produce by the plant. Alternatively, the greater UV-B absorbency of CBC compared to THC and the relative stability of CBC compared to CBD might nominate this compound as the protective screening substance. The presence of large amounts of THC would then have to be explained as merely an accumulated storage compound at the end of the enzyme-mediated cannabinoid pathway.



I hope you can comprehend this... 
I'll try and dumb it down for you THC is for protection from light when light hits it it absorbs the light and degrades....


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 8, 2012)

"
*Even if CBD absorbs on par with THC, in areas of high ambient UV-B, the former compound may be more rapidly degraded. This could lower the availability of CBD present or render it the less energetically efficient compound to produce by the plant. "*

Former as in previous. In the first sentence the author lists cbd and thc in that order. The word former, is used in past tense. You know "the former, or "the latter". The only thing in that whole paragraph that mentions degradation is referring to cbd. 
Goddamn you're a blockhead. I'm outta here.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> The "shade leafs" grow them in the dark and feed them the sugars they make from the light creating better weed.


Thanks for the info. I'm gonna go cover all my buds with socks and paper bags so only leaf gets light. It'll be the best harvest ever! Who says the internet growers don't give the best tips?!


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## hexthat (Dec 8, 2012)

I'll keep getting my $3k a pound while your still getting your $1k pound. 
Yeild and density do not mater at all only potency.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> I'll keep getting my $3k a pound while your still getting your $1k pound.
> Yeild and density do not mater at all only potency.


Guess what dumb ass.. I get more than 3k so sorry about your schwag and your insufficient lighting lmao.

I doubt highly you have ever harvested a pound anyways dipshit.


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## Mr. Krinkle (Dec 8, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> You're wrong..
> 
> Buds do contain their own leaves besides the fan leaves, maybe they use those once the fan is gone. That's incomprehensible though huh?
> 
> ...


i completely agree with this guy....in case anybody gives a shit


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## yesum (Dec 8, 2012)

uvb light degrades thc on a living plant? So all that high altitude outdoor grown stuff should be bunk?

If I see lower buds that develop better with increased direct light exposure I have a bias confirmation?

I have seen the results but should trust a scientist from several decades ago who worked out his 'facts' from observation of others grows? Doing what works for me is just me selectively choosing methods based on my preconceived notions about how things work?

I guess you 'leave dem leaves alone boy!' types were right again. You remind me of guys like Jerry Falwell with your religious fervor and lack of any acceptance that your ways might not be the end all of growing 'science'

The 'pluckers' do not come across as fanatical as the others for the most part. I think that says something and it is not good for the 'scientists'. I am neutral on the matter and figure it is about a draw on yield doing either one. How you pluck would have a lot to do with it also.

I just take some leaves off for space constraint reasons but notice increased growth and maturity of lower buds or any others, that get good direct light on them. Confirmation bias, gotcha.


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## colonuggs (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Looks like a lot of fan leaves to me. .
> 
> Uncle Ben


 hahahaha....really? Only took under 1 hour to trim that top plant Got 4.5 oz.

this is what I call alot of fan leaves....took over 5 hours to trim this bitch 4 oz







Took 2 more hours final trim..... after I spent 3 hours getting the plant to this point


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## bde0001 (Dec 8, 2012)

hey colonuggs, nice fucking plant. that thing is huggge. how did u get her to yeild so much? what wattage was she under?


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## bde0001 (Dec 8, 2012)

oh thats a sativa isnt it? thats why its big im guessing


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## Cannacaster Deluxe (Dec 8, 2012)

There is something to be said for removing entire shoots below the canopy. If they [sub-canopy foliage] end up producing buds at all they will be really under-developed, not worth smoking and not worth the time to trim. Basically shoots are suckers and the reasoning behind removing them is that the plant uses the energy it would have used on trying to develop that larfy garbage, to further grow/fill out the top shoots above the canopy. I have heard people claim that you get the same weight at the end without the larfy garbage. However there is no way to really measure or prove this hypothesis. I remove the sub-canopy leaves because trimming larf makes me angry and it increases airflow below the canopy promoting gas exchange and hindering any potential mold growth. I you saw the video from the Jorge Cervantes link, I wont go into food storage/production, but any leaf that gets good light or is associated with a budding shoot or bud-site, leave it. if it is really blocking a lower bud and you cant resist the urge to snip, just remove half of the leaf (like when cloning) or only the "fingers" of the fan that are blocking.


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## Cannacaster Deluxe (Dec 8, 2012)

The above advice is for indoor grows. Outdoors, its a little different...if you even trim at all.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Pirate said:


> [video=youtube;8Zqe4ZV9LDs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs[/video]


Excellent!


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## beginner.legal.growop (Dec 8, 2012)

hexthat said:


> Where is the plants growth hormones forum I've done lots of research on this. Why I will always use superthrive, unless I'm growing organic bunk weed.
> 
> I have yet to smoke any good organic better then chem hydro.


LOL you obviously havent met any of the right growers.


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

bde0001 said:


> hey colonuggs, nice fucking plant. that thing is huggge. how did u get her to yeild so much? what wattage was she under?


She is one of a few under 4-1000s..... hahahha man that hexthat dude is crackin me up



hexthat said:


> *light degrades thc!!!!!!!!!!!*


 yep but only after harvest if you let the dried marijuana sit out in the light....not while your growin it  



hexthat said:


> why do you think they go amber? they just magically do it?


 hahahaha no its due to the bud itself maturing not the light degrading the trichs... all trichs go through the same process clear cloudy amber... its a time thing not a light thing

Some buds just grow fat under the lights with minimal leaves... its all the genectics of the plant.....


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## hexthat (Dec 9, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> She is one of a few under 4-1000s..... hahahha man that hexthat dude is crackin me up
> 
> yep but only after harvest if you let the dried marijuana sit out in the light....not while your growin it
> 
> ...


THC degrades in living plants... its replaced if the plant is healthy. Under nugs produce buds with high THC ratios then tops! THC is a molecule that regardless of whether its in a living bud or dried bud degrades from absorbing light.

Your all so tarded you think when the degraded THC is replaced that its not degrading.

THC can be used for energy by cannabis just like any other carbohydrate, although it does not fallow the 1:2:1 ratio it does convert easily into a sugar threw hydrolysis, oxidation, or reduction. 

THC also degrade without light by oxidation, air tight containers are needed. 

Oxidation of THC does not happen in living buds like in dried buds I think this is where you all are getting stuck on.


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

have a good one !!!!


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## hexthat (Dec 9, 2012)

Old timers call me "the professor", because I educate the scientists, really am called that.

Amber trichomes happen from magic weed fairies my bad,...

Do you even know the order in witch these go?

CBC
CBD
CBG
CBN
THC
THCA
THCV


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## hexthat (Dec 9, 2012)

CBG > CBC
CBG > CBD
CBD > THC
THC>THCA
THC> CBN
THCA>THC

I can't remember where THCV goes help me out.


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

made me start to research 

The resin gland produces cannabinoids that are converted into THC. During the active cycle of cannabinoid production the glands will appear clear or cloudy. As the plant matures and the production cycle slows the glands will change color to amber. This is caused from environmental influences......temperature and light

The major influence on the amber color would be the lack of conversion from cannabinoids CBD and CBN into THC. You can draw your own conclusions as to why, my theroy is as the plant matures it slows in cannabinoid production and the UVB radiation has less cannabinoids to convert and starts to degrade the resin - hense the color change.




> Returning to the more orthodox version of the cannabinoid biosynthesis, the role of ultraviolet light should be reemphasized. It seems apparent that ultraviolet light, normally supplied in abundance by sunlight, takes part in the conversion of CBD acid to THC acids. Therefore, the lack of ultraviolet light in indoor growing situations could account for the limited psychoactivity of Cannabis grown under artificial lights.
> 
> Light energy has been collected and utilized by the plant in a long series of reactions resulting in the formation of THC acids. Farther along the pathway begins the formation of degradation products not metabolically produced by the living plant.
> 
> ...



[video=youtube;aQPC6oAMK4k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQPC6oAMK4k[/video]


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> You can shove proof right up his ass but he wont believe you.
> 
> Of course apical dominance makes the top buds recieve most of the energy to grow. But you're still denying the fact that when you open up the light to that little whispy popcorn bud down below it IMMEDIATELY starts to green up, fatten and frost up and mature with the rest of the buds. Why, because the little leaves on that bud finally start getting some light to make it grow. When you strip a fan leaf there are still leaves on the buds to take it's place.


You obviously have never grown outdoors. I just finished up 4 plants outdoors, and both my mutts (Peak19) and pure sativas (Haze) had wispy airy buds at the lower levels. That's what cannabis does, and you're not gonna change its phenotype, it's growth habits/profile. On all plants, I did my usual drill of cutting out the large colas and leaving the lower part of the plant, the area with the popcorn buds, in the ground for a couple of weeks. You can hang a sign on that pig and call it a dog all day long (due to a lack of experience) but no amount of light is gonna change this common botanical fact - shit happens and no amount of plucking is gonna change it.

BTW, just in case you don't quite get it yet, outdoors, there is sunlight penetration into the canopy at sunrise, sunset, and for me most of the day due to high winds parting the canopy at times, some being in the 30's mph that lasted for days on end.

Also, try to get my persona right. I don't know who this "uncle bud" is you keep referring to.

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> hahahaha....really? Only took under 1 hour to trim that top plant Got 4.5 oz.
> 
> this is what I call alot of fan leaves....took over 5 hours to trim this bitch 4 oz


Well, if my "bitch" had a lot of yellowed non-productive leaves like that, I'd be pHluckin' her too. Fortunately, I manage to retain at least 95% of my fan leaves in a nice green, healthy, productive manner until harvest. That's what mastering your garden is all about.

Photo of an indoor secondary harvest:



UB


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> If I had such yellowed un-productive leaves, I'd be plucking them off too. Fortunately, I manage to retain at least 95% of my fan leaves in a nice green, healthy, productive manner until harvest. That's what mastering your garden is all about.
> 
> UB


strain related...every strain is different and has different needs... ... when you get a new one they do different things in flower.

that leafy bitch was a one time grow from seed...I hate plants/strains that take forever to trim

Heres another leafy strain..... but this one stayed green in flower


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You obviously have never grown outdoors. I just finished up 4 plants outdoors, and both my mutts (Peak19) and pure sativas (Haze) had wispy airy buds at the lower levels. On all plants, I did my usual drill of cutting out the large colas and leaving the lower part of the plant, the area with the popcorn buds, in the ground for a couple of weeks. You can hang a sign on that pig and call it a dog all day long (due to a lack of experience) but no amount of light is gonna change this common botanical fact - shit happens and no amount of plucking is gonna change it. Uncle Ben


This statement really does show you really do not understand how things work. Proper leaf and sucker removal has to be timmed correctly. You can't just rip off leaves and expect to see the buds get bigger, no wonder you don't remove anything, I wouldn't either!

Where's the negitive REP button?

Its not Uncle Bud Its Uncle Popcorn Bud!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

hexthat said:


> Old timers call me "the professor", because I educate the scientists, really am called that.
> 
> Amber trichomes happen from magic weed fairies my bad,...
> 
> ...


Consult Mel Frank's Guide if you want the chemistry on cannaboids. Included is lab data regarding the conversion of THC into CBD, CBN, etc.....the timeline, the reasons why, cause-effect, etc.

Ub


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> This statement really does show you really do not understand how things work. Proper leaf and sucker removal has to be timmed correctly. You can't just rip off leaves and expect to see the buds get bigger, no wonder you don't remove anything, I wouldn't either!
> 
> Where's the negitive REP button?
> 
> Its not Uncle Bud Its Uncle Popcorn Bud!


You too have never grown outdoors.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> Heres another leafy strain..... but this one stayed green in flower


You're spinning. I don't care about flower. What does the plant look like at harvest? I too can cherry pick using a plant (42 days flowering) that is still 3 weeks from harvest - 



My avatar reflects a plant at harvest which has good chunky buds at lower levels with all of it's fan leaves intact, and it was crammed into a pen with its sistas.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 9, 2012)

hexthat said:


> Old timers call me "the professor", because I educate the scientists, really am called that.


Yeah, not to hurt your feelings or anything but I think the reason they call you "The Professor" is because you are a dumb ass. 



Uncle Ben said:


> You obviously have never grown outdoors. I just finished up 4 plants outdoors, and both my mutts (Peak19) and pure sativas (Haze) had wispy airy buds at the lower levels. On all plants, I did my usual drill of cutting out the large colas and leaving the lower part of the plant, the area with the popcorn buds, in the ground for a couple of weeks. You can hang a sign on that pig and call it a dog all day long (due to a lack of experience) but no amount of light is gonna change this common botanical fact - shit happens and no amount of plucking is gonna change it.
> 
> BTW, just in case you don't quite get it yet, outdoors, there is sunlight penetration into the canopy at sunrise, sunset, and for me most of the day due to high winds parting the canopy at times, some being in the 30's mph that lasted for days on end.
> 
> ...


Uncle Ben, sorry.. 

I grew outdoors for 15 years. I never defoliated my plants then, I never really experimented much with my plants until I started growing indoors. 

Defoliation outdoors isn't really necessary because the sun moves east to west and exposes more of the plant to direct light, however, if your plan is not in a location that receives full sun all day it might benefit from having a few leaves trimmed too.


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Dec 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You too have never grown outdoors.


I cut my teeth growing outdoors, I still do but only use it for oil purposes due to the fact of our growing conditions. Growing indoors is a total difference than outdoors. Some techniques can cross over and some can't. 

In both cases though removing fans and suckers on the lower end(shaved legs) will result in bigger bud higher up.


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're spinning. I don't care about flower. What does the plant look like at harvest? I too can cherry pick using a plant (42 days flowering) that is still 3 weeks from harvest



A plant??? how about 25...harvest time of my last crop....wheres your last crop.... not just your 1 plant in your avatar you keep braggin about.....your just spinnin now

oh yea after some research I agree... light and temp do cause the trichs to go from clear to amber 




> Returning to the more orthodox version of the cannabinoid biosynthesis, the role of ultraviolet light should be reemphasized. It seems apparent that ultraviolet light, normally supplied in abundance by sunlight, takes part in the conversion of CBD acid to THC acids. Therefore, the lack of ultraviolet light in indoor growing situations could account for the limited psychoactivity of Cannabis grown under artificial lights.
> 
> Light energy has been collected and utilized by the plant in a long series of reactions resulting in the formation of THC acids. Farther along the pathway begins the formation of degradation products not metabolically produced by the living plant.
> 
> ...


----------



## bde0001 (Dec 9, 2012)

I think i just ejaculated....






colonuggs said:


> A plant??? how about 25...harvest time of my last crop....wheres your last crop.... not just 1 plant in avatar...your spinnin now
> 
> oh yea after some research I agree... light and temp do cause the trichs to go from clear to amber


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## bde0001 (Dec 9, 2012)

you dont worry about helicopters flir noticing the heat emiited from this grow room? 4000 watts must produce a lot of heat. I have thought about how i could grow something of this size but always ran into the problem of where the fuck to vent the heat....I hate the idea of venting a heat source to the outside....especially because I hear helicopters flying nearby about 3-4x a day. not hovering but still...i would be shitting bricks constantly. you must make bank though . but yeah, if you cud answer how you vent you heat and what you use to make it possible to run 4000 watts, I would freakin appreciate that!


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

you could aways run your exhaust out a fireplace chimney if you have one....I do state legal medical in washington we can grow up to 45 plants in our collective but we only have 2 card holders and are allowed 30.. which is a full room

I dont worry about the police or helicopters... they been by the grow already cause of neighbors wanting to cause trouble.... did a count left... informed the neighbors we are legal.

We vent out a window through a carbon filter... we maintain upper 70s* F

heres a older grow room and its vent  12 x12 room 1050 cfm exhaust


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Yeah, not to hurt your feelings or anything but I think the reason they call you "The Professor" is because you are a dumb ass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't believe it for a moment, or you would confirm that popcorn buds occur at lower levels, indoors or out. It's just what cannabis does.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

colonuggs said:


>


Just for the record, parabolics suck. If you want to piss off your energy dollars, use a parabolic reflector.

UB


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just for the record, parabolics suck. If you want to piss off your energy dollars, use a parabolic reflector.
> 
> UB



hahahaha... why do they cost more to run than exhausted hoods...NO...... 1000 watt ballasts cost the same to run reguardless of the hood

They leave the same light print (lux/candle) according to the light meter..

Parabolic hoods spread the light out over a larger area (4 ft) which eliminates hot spots

thats a dumb comment bro...its like your trying to pick a fight with just negitive comments to most who post????

Shit... I know people who use no hood... just the bulb and they rockin the buds .....plant blub plant bulb


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> hahahaha... why do they cost more to run than exhausted hoods...NO...... 1000 watt ballasts cost the same to run reguardless of the hood
> 
> thats a dumb comment bro...its like your trying to pick a fight with just negitive comments????
> 
> Shit... I know people who use no hood... just the bulb and they rockin the buds .....plant blub plant bulb


I'm not picking a fight. The most efficient reflector is a small horizontal hood using a specular gull wing insert. The most inefficient is a parabolic reflector.


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## bde0001 (Dec 9, 2012)

how did the neighbors find out? the smell? and are you in washington state? if u are, you already know it has been legalized ...im guessing u mean d.c.? ....lol i just relaized its still illegal to grow it in washington state....




colonuggs said:


> you could aways run your exhaust out a fireplace chimney if you have one....I do state legal medical in washington we can grow up to 45 plants in our collective but we only have 2 card holders and are allowed 30.. which is a full room
> 
> I dont worry about the police or helicopters... they been by the grow already cause of neighbors wanting to cause trouble.... did a count left... informed the neighbors we are legal.
> 
> ...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> The most efficient reflector is a small horizontal hood using a specular gull wing insert.


Sorry, but you're wrong. Maybe last decade you were correct, but the times seem to have left you behind.


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## kinetic (Dec 9, 2012)

Parabolic reflectors are in fact the least inefficient to use. They are 40% less efficient than a horizontal reflectors. That's not to say you don't have a nice grow from my perspective. It's just that you could be getting better use of the light you have for less $.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 9, 2012)

This is currently the most efficient reflector available. It's a hybrid between the two technologies. Welcome to the brave new world!


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## colonuggs (Dec 9, 2012)

vertical parabolics use the 360* of the bulb.. the entire bulb....not 1/2 the bulb with the other 1/2 tucked up in the hood having to be reflected back down

the light is spread over a 4 ft area and contained while being forced downward...

heat from the bulb escapes threw the 6 inch sleeve that hold the socket no need for forced air ventilation


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## kinetic (Dec 9, 2012)

I made it large so one can clearly see where the focal point is on a parabolic reflector. Very evenly distributes light though.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 9, 2012)

kinetic said:


> Parabolic reflectors are in fact the least inefficient to use. They are 40% less efficient than a horizontal reflectors. That's not to say you don't have a nice grow from my perspective. It's just that you could be getting better use of the light you have for less $.


The advantage to parabolic is the even diffuse footprint they produce.


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## kinetic (Dec 9, 2012)

Here. http://www.quora.com/Mathematics/Why-does-an-ellipsoidal-reflector-make-for-a-better-spotlight-than-a-parabolic-reflector 
I'm not saying you can't grow with parabolic, clearly you can, it's just not as efficient. All I'm saying is I have a backround in commercial and residential lighting and this is where my thoughts come from


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## yesum (Dec 9, 2012)

bde0001 said:


> I think i just ejaculated....



I had to use a tissue to clean up. 1 of your plants equals the amount I will get from my grow.


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## Uncle Pirate (Dec 10, 2012)

Sure, but not in the context "professor" was claiming. Sure, reveg your plant and the trichs will degrade, set your plant in 30 degree weather and the trichs will degrade. Removing a fan leaf so an underdeveloped, yellow bud can fill in isn't the same at all. Nice plants btw.



colonuggs said:


> oh yea after some research I agree... light and temp do cause the trichs to go from clear to amber


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 10, 2012)

1. See Cervantes' Bible, page 183. It has one of the most comprehensive chapters on indoor lighting to be found. The cone and parabolic hoods are the least efficient. Jorge confirms my postulation on page 184:


> Horizontal reflectors are the most efficient for HID systems, and are the best value for growers. A horizontal lamp yields up to 40 percent more light than a lamp burning in a vertical position. Light is emitted from the arc tube. When horizontal, half of this light is directed downward to the plants, so only half of the light need to be reflected.


Actually, with a gull wing design placed above and close to the arc tube to reduce lossiness, most of the light is reflected around the arc tube down into the canopy. The ridge of the gull wing faces and is arranged closest to the tube. I retrofitted mine with highly reflective, light diffusing, specular aluminum using a rivet gun and a few rivets.



2. I doubt if any one owns a light meter and even if you say you do, it probably only registers to 5K f.c., which is useless, as HID's register more f.c. than the sun.

If I was to purchase another hood, I'd go with one of the Hortilux hoods, who copied the old, highly refined, lab tested designs of Diamond Lights. I sold my Sun hood.

Not to toot my horn, but years ago I was the first indoor grower to use/experiment with a 600 HPS. Until that time, everyone was using 400W and 1000W, nobody had heard of a 600W, much less were using it. Now, 600W is the most popular lamp available. (It's the most efficient).

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 10, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> This is currently the most efficient reflector available. It's a hybrid between the two technologies. Welcome to the brave new world!


Maybe, maybe not. That is nothing more than a knock off of what Diamond Lights developed back in the early 80's.


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## chuck estevez (Dec 10, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. See Cervantes' Bible, page 183. It has one of the most comprehensive chapters on indoor lighting to be found. The cone and parabolic hoods are the least efficient.
> 
> 2. I doubt if any one owns a light meter and even if you say you do, it probably only registers to 5K f.c., which is useless, as HID's register more f.c. than the sun.
> 
> ...


ub, just want to finish your last statement, cause you know someone will question it. 600 is the most efficient use of light. It is not the most efficient on your electric bill (compared to less wattage bulbs) as some may take that statement.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 10, 2012)

chuck estevez said:


> ub, just want to finish your last statement, cause you know someone will question it. 600 is the most efficient use of light. It is not the most efficient on your electric bill (compared to less wattage bulbs) as some may take that statement.


Thanks for pointing out that a 400W uses less electricity than a 600W. 

UB


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## colonuggs (Dec 10, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. See Cervantes' Bible, page 183. It has one of the most comprehensive chapters on indoor lighting to be found. The cone and parabolic hoods are the least efficient. Jorge confirms my postulation on page 184:
> 
> Actually, with a gull wing design placed above and close to the arc tube to reduce lossiness, most of the light is reflected around the arc tube down into the canopy. The ridge of the gull wing faces and is arranged closest to the tube. I retrofitted mine with highly reflective, light diffusing, specular aluminum using a rivet gun and a few rivets.
> 
> ...


Bible... Dont need one.... I go off personal experience and results 

We tried the 600 watt MH and didnt like um... we would have to stage um 1 every 3x3 to get to desired results ...

A 15 x15 room hooked up with 600s... takes 25 @ 3x3 15,000 watts or 9 -1000s @ 5x5 9000 watts.... hmmm

My meter tells me we got around 75- 7600 FC about 6 inches under the 1000 watt bulb







and 16-1700 FC off the floor directly under the bulb... 42 inches away


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## woodsmantoker (Dec 10, 2012)

You can download a free LIM app for you phone now a days bucky!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 10, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> Bible... Dont need one.... I go off personal experience and results


....and I'm in the bible neener neener. 

BTW, nice job! Luv the meter.


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## JustAnotherUser (Dec 10, 2012)

48 pages of people arguing that leaves are blockers of light and not the plants energy sources?
what happened here?


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 10, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Maybe, maybe not. That is nothing more than a knock off of what Diamond Lights developed back in the early 80's.


There's no "Maybe, maybe not about it". Do you need figures to understand?

http://www.greners.com/reflector-test.html


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## Mr. Krinkle (Dec 10, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just for the record, parabolics suck. If you want to piss off your energy dollars, use a parabolic reflector.
> 
> UB


dude - you should stop because you really dont know what you're talking about....


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 10, 2012)

More wrong assumptions.



Uncle Ben said:


> I doubt if any one owns a light meter and even if you say you do, it probably only registers to 5K f.c., which is useless, as HID's register more f.c. than the sun.
> 
> UB





colonuggs said:


> Bible... Dont need one.... I go off personal experience and results
> 
> We tried the 600 watt MH and didnt like um... we would have to stage um 1 every 3x3 to get to desired results ...
> 
> ...


I have the same meter myself. Those readings look great to me!


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## NaturalBornCarny (Dec 10, 2012)

WOW is there a lot of bitching being done here. I like threads that are worded just to start arguments lol. Fan leaves both block light and produce sugars.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 10, 2012)

They don't call this place Troll-It-Up for nothing.


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## kinetic (Dec 10, 2012)

Mr. Krinkle said:


> he obviously gets ALL of his info from a book - and then comes here repeating what he read, like we never read that shit....


That's why Jorge Cervantes gave uncle ben a shout out in his book right?


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## yesum (Dec 10, 2012)

My meter only goes to 10,000 fc, that enough?


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## stumpjumper (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm sure Uncle B was knowledgeable in his time... Unfortunately time has gotten away from him and new techniques seem like a foreign language to him. You can't teach an old dog new tricks... When they are too fucking stubborn to even consider it anyways.

What does it really matter, in the end it comes down to the grower being happy with his results. In my case I have a few things to be held accountable for; yield, potency and quality. These standards have to be met not for my needs, but my patients needs. 

I don't get any complaints and nobody goes without. On top of that they gladly give me $250 an oz to compensate me for my efforts.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 11, 2012)

I know hood design and light dynamics, studied it to death which included consorting with lighting techs and I'm here to reiterate that anyone thinking you're getting good efficiency with the pole end of a HID pointing down into the canopy is ignorant when it comes to the law of physics and lamp dynamics. Add to that the lossiness that occurs from the light having to travel a distance, indirectly from the tube to a reflecting surface (which also introduces light lossiness) and you have the perfect recipe for pissin' off your money and staying stupid. You might get good light distribution, but so will an incandescent bulb. Try the incan guys, you'll like that one too. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 11, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> This is currently the most efficient reflector available. It's a hybrid between the two technologies. Welcome to the brave new world!


See the post above and welcome to the Land of Cannabis Stupidity.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 11, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> In my case I have a few things to be held accountable for; yield, potency and quality. These standards have to be met not for my needs, but my patients needs.


I've seen some of the "patients" you speak of, and they look like they haven't taken a bath or held down a job in months. The medical marijuana ditty is a joke, nothing more than a disengenious racket to get high. The industry breeds hype, excessive profits (greed), and falsehoods.

You say you sell your pot for $250 which I think is very excessive. I sell mine to one friend only for $50/oz., just enough to pay for my time and risk. I also give it away to a few chosen friends/relatives.

UB


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## cannawizard (Dec 11, 2012)

everyone just relax, this thread is not about flaming each other (but it looks like its heading in that direction), everyone is entitled to their own opinions but remember the RIU rules (i.e. NO threats-harassment-etc)..


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 11, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Peoples lives are as stake DICK!


I rest my case, hah!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 11, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> everyone just relax, this thread is not about flaming each other (but it looks like its heading in that direction), everyone is entitled to their own opinions but remember the RIU rules (i.e. NO threats-harassment-etc)..


One thing I've learned about cannabis growing forums over the years:

1. The fate of the Western World depends on medical marijuana to "save" lives,

2. You must pH your water,

3. Advanced Shysters, hydro vendors, and seedbanks are honest people who _really_ care,

4. Epsom salts not only cures ailing feet....but ailing plants,

5. Fan leaves are evil and just _get in the way_,

6. There are more physics and engineering graduates frequenting cannabis growing forums than can be found on the campus at MIT,

7. Bloom foods will increase production,

8. More trichomes and resin means more potency,

9. HPS lights have no blue spectrum and should only be used for flowering,

10. And last but not least, you _can_ reinvent the wheel. All you need is a wrench to re-arrange the spokes.


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## cannawizard (Dec 11, 2012)

*

8. More trichomes and resin means more potency,​




***thats my FAV


----------



## stumpjumper (Dec 11, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've seen some of the "patients" you speak of, and they look like they haven't taken a bath or held down a job in months. The medical marijuana ditty is a joke, nothing more than a disengenious racket to get high. The industry breeds hype, excessive profits (greed), and falsehoods.
> 
> You say you sell your pot for $250 which I think is very excessive. I sell mine to one friend only for $50/oz., just enough to pay for my time and risk. I also give it away to a few chosen friends/relatives.
> 
> UB


 I give it away too, a free oz a month. Calling cancer patients getting relief is a racket ey? Chronic pain must be though? Nausea from Chrons, is that a racket too?

I don't have much else to say to that... If I wanted to racket I'd be pulling $80-$100 a quarter all day long EASY. I don't.


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## dizzlekush (Dec 11, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> I know hood design and light dynamics, studied it to death which included consorting with lighting techs and I'm here to reiterate that anyone thinking you're getting good efficiency with the pole end of a HID pointing down into the canopy is ignorant when it comes to the law of physics and lamp dynamics. Add to that the lossiness that occurs from the light having to travel a distance, indirectly from the tube to a reflecting surface (which also introduces light lossiness) and you have the perfect recipe for pissin' off your money and staying stupid. You might get good light distribution, but so will an incandescent bulb. Try the incan guys, you'll like that one too.
> 
> UB


Sorry UB, but this is incorrect, although its a pervasive & persistent belief. New advances in reflector designs adhering to the "one bounce and out" vertically oriented bulb concept have beaten every conventional horizontally oriented bulb/reflector combo tested. Real life tests using legitimate quantum meters measuring PPFD have proven that vertically oriented bulb/reflector combos have the highest efficacy in delivery of µmol/m2/s per input watt of power to date. Here's a little info on the matter:

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0217900-highly-efficient-luminaires-for-supplemental-greenhouse-lighting.html
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:15oNDfa60XYJ:cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/initial_testing_results.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiwtdOCvOMdzl9nRGQnigMToC5Kgwpp86_HUUFKDbhCMibR3tlaSgqfr8d72gNe9tK3haomjjEcE5vdgvU5YzhNfaUWc8FfzJ7RY_ssqtZIeXSV0kdwKyvilEM37t5PMttgHIvb&sig=AHIEtbRO0tXf7q-YaBSf80-dLYYcqwkt8A
cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_E15_study.pdf
http://cycloptics.com/all_bright_reflector
http://www.greners.com/reflector-test.html

For example the All-Bright luminaire has an efficiency of ~1.95PPF/watt, there's not a single horizontally oriented luminaire that can match that in the world.

The logic behind it is very simple. Horizontally oriented bulbs have been considered superior since the radiation from the bulbs arc tube is emitted from the sides of the arc tube (& bulb) as opposed to radiating from the tip of the arc tube. Orienting the bulb horizontally in a reflector allows for the greatest amount of light to be emitted directly (not reflected) from the reflector. This has been the argument for horizontally orienting the bulb. The problem with horizontally oriented bulbs is only 35-45% of the bulbs light gets emitted directly, the rest has to be reflected. 

With the designt of modern horizontally oriented reflectors ~50% of the light emitted from the bulb MUST BE REFLECTED MORE THAN ONCE to actually leave the reflector. Each reflective bounce decreases the energy that the photon carries, decreasing irriadiance intensity (PPF). This is where vertically oriented reflectors have their advantage. With a vertically oriented reflector NONE of the light has to be reflected more than once to be emitted form the reflector, its all 'one bounce and out' (hence the name). Although there is much less direct light being emitted from vertically oriented bulbs, overall the lighting intensity & uniformity is greater since less Photosynthetic Photon Flux is lost due to multiple reflections.

This is why a flashlights design mirrors that of a vertically oriented reflector, its more efficient. If it was more efficient to orient the bulb horizontally so more of the arc tube could have direct irradiance, then all flashlights would have their bulb facing that direction instead of the design they currently have, which mirrors that of the Luxor, All-Bright etc.

FYI i currently use horizontally oriented reflectors (Blockbusters) since there isn't a single vertically oriented reflector on the market at the moment that is worth its price. Since the advances in reflector designs are fairly novel, they're still a little overpriced for their actual value.

Nothing personal UB, you're just considered one of the trusted 'voices of reason' in the community, and id like to try to correct this false belief in the community.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 11, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > This is currently the most efficient reflector available. It's a hybrid between the two technologies. Welcome to the brave new world!
> ...


Read the actual test results I posted on reflector efficiency. Can't argue with numbers.


----------



## yesum (Dec 11, 2012)

^^ UB you been whooped by da facts! just kidding

On the matter of the leaves maybe you should be a little more open to folks that are actually getting good results from plucking, even if there is no 'hard science' to prove it.


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> Read the actual test results I posted on reflector efficiency. Can't argue with numbers.





PJ Diaz said:


> Read the actual test results I posted on reflector efficiency. Can't argue with numbers.


where are the results located PJ? Also was the PL Lighting Deep reflectors tested? I am running 2 on movers and by far the results are quite astonishing compared to the sun 6


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> Sorry UB, but this is incorrect, although its a pervasive & persistent belief. New advances in reflector designs adhering to the "one bounce and out" vertically oriented bulb concept have beaten every conventional horizontally oriented bulb/reflector combo tested. Real life tests using legitimate quantum meters measuring PPFD have proven that vertically oriented bulb/reflector combos have the highest efficacy in delivery of µmol/m2/s per input watt of power to date. Here's a little info on the matter:
> 
> http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0217900-highly-efficient-luminaires-for-supplemental-greenhouse-lighting.html
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:15oNDfa60XYJ:cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/initial_testing_results.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiwtdOCvOMdzl9nRGQnigMToC5Kgwpp86_HUUFKDbhCMibR3tlaSgqfr8d72gNe9tK3haomjjEcE5vdgvU5YzhNfaUWc8FfzJ7RY_ssqtZIeXSV0kdwKyvilEM37t5PMttgHIvb&sig=AHIEtbRO0tXf7q-YaBSf80-dLYYcqwkt8A
> ...


impossible for all reflected light to outperform in efficiency 40-60% direct light...the math kills their words dude...yep...one bounce and out when algebraic/geometrical math is applied...good crafty marketing though


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> *
> 
> 8. More trichomes and resin means more potency,​
> 
> ...


I smoked some mexican sativa a friend of mine grew with barely any trichomes...barely a glitter here and there...was hallucinating cartoon like shit for 2 hours...some of the best I ever had...another friend with some...uggggh...kush something or other...sparkling like diamonds...made me hungry and tired...And i haven't ph'ed in so long...years...THAT MY METER TIP DRIED OUT AND BATTERY DIED


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2012)

Kite High said:


> impossible for all reflected light to outperform in efficiency 40-60% direct light...the math kills their words dude...yep...one bounce and out when algebraic/geometrical math is applied...good crafty marketing though


Exactly. The one "tested" as the most efficient by this hydro vendor is also the most expensive. duh.....

There's a sucker born every minute.....


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

And furthermore the shape of flash lights' and headlights'reflectors is to tightly focus the beam hence the shape...NOT efficiency...but in growing focusing is only part of the goal...a good EVEN spread is paramount....most street lights, which are primarily HID are HORIZONTAL...the newer ones anyways for efficiency and spread


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

I really don care if you cant grasp the concepts and math of EMR physics. Just because you say something is impossible, doesn't mean thats true or you know what you're talking about (actually its proven the opposite in your case).

There is no better methods at testing the efficiency and output of a luminaire setup than testing the units PPF(D)/watt. This is science, where facts, not opinions rule the world. I can practically guarantee that you decided WITH YOUR OPINIONS that the FACTS WERE INCORRECT. is that how an intelligent person goes about learning? nope that's how a pothead does. _You really think they pulled a fast one over Dr. Bruce Bugbee (2005 agricultural researcher of the year, founder of Apogee instruments) You really think the company Phillips would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to collaborate with Cycloptics if they weren't on the cusp of science?_

I guess it would be better to go buy Jorge Cervantes book right guys? as UB claims its got the best chapter on lighting UB has ever seen. open ended parabolic adjust a wings are the best reflectors right? Funny to see UB falling into the group of uninformed hippie-dippies he so loves to degrade.


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Kite High said:


> And furthermore the shape of flash lights' and headlights'reflectors is to tightly focus the beam hence the shape...NOT efficiency...but in growing focusing is only part of the goal...a good EVEN spread is paramount....most street lights, which are primarily HID are HORIZONTAL...the newer ones anyways for efficiency and spread


Im not talking about the shape of the reflector, im talking about the orientation of the bulb inside the reflector. By your logic every flashlight & headlight manufacturer IN THE WORLD could improve the intensity of their flashlight/headlight by changing the orientation of the bulb inside the flashlight/headlight so that more direct light could be emitted from the flashlight/headlight. but why haven't they? STUPID FLASHLIGHT & HEADLIGHT MANUFACTURERS!


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

For all those that aren't already a lost cause to their infallible opinions.
http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Light1994Conf/Contents.htm


 "A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." - *Max Planck*

"Believing that your hypothesis must be correct before all the evidence is gathered encourages you to interpret the evidence selectively. This is human nature. It is also precisely what the scientific method tries to avoid. It does so by requiring that scientists not just test their hypotheses, but try to prove them false." - *Gary Taubes *

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - *Carl Sagan *

"The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know." - Attributed to *Socrates*
 
 


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> For all those that aren't already a lost cause to their infallible opinions.
> http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Light1994Conf/Contents.htm


Works for me, see my gardens (gallery). Let's see yours.



> FYI i currently use horizontally oriented reflectors (Blockbusters) since there isn't a single vertically oriented reflector on the market at the moment that is worth its price. Since the advances in reflector designs are fairly novel, they're still a little overpriced for their actual value.


Now wait a minute. You pumped up the virtues of having a dead arc pole pointing toward the canopy in your super duper parabolic/cone type reflector and even though this design is supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread, you're not buying it cause it's overpriced? Did a cord come with that Blockbuster horizontal hood?

Don't know about you, but I'm buying light..... or was. I grow only outdoors now.

UB


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Works for me, see my gardens (gallery). Let's see yours.
> 
> UB


WOW, yep those six pictures you have in your gallery that are years old really prove a whole lot UB. better listen to you about EMR physics!

BTW watch out for one of the article's in that link:
*EFFECTS OF RADIATION QUALITY, INTENSITY, AND DURATION ON PHOTOSYNTHESIS AND GROWTH
*_By Bruce Bugbee_

Its written by one of those "suckers born every minute." One of those suckers that has over 50 published works in scientific journals, has received the 2012 Governor&#8217;s Medal for Science State of Utah Award, the 2005 Researcher of the Year College of Agriculture Award, the 2001 Outstanding Graduate Mentor Utah State University Award and the 2001 Top Professor Award Utah State University.

O BTW that 'sucker' has personally tested the Cycloptics luminaire and admits that its the most efficient luminaire that's ever been made.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> WOW, yep those six pictures you have in your gallery that are years old really prove a whole lot UB.


There's 8 pages. Guess you got lost.

We've heard the rhetoric, now where's your garden?


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 12, 2012)

Kite High said:


> where are the results located PJ? Also was the PL Lighting Deep reflectors tested? I am running 2 on movers and by far the results are quite astonishing compared to the sun 6


Here it is. The test was done by Greners. They only tested about 20 different hoods, and the PL Lighting Deep wasn't tested:

http://www.greners.com/reflector-test.html

Cut and paste:



> [h=2]Results[/h]
> *Reflector*​  *Efficiency*​  *Value*​  Price​  ePerimeter​  eInside​ Luxor 8" r2 *7793.12$249.95272.7506.3Luxor 8" r1777.23.11$249.95267.8509.4Blockbuster 6" 728.84.86$149.94305.0423.8Radiant 6"711.35.93$119.95292.4418.9Blockbuster 8"677.44.37$154.95287.6389.8Raptor 8" - At 23"666.23.10$214.95317.2349.0Raptor 8" - At 24"657.23.06$214.95316.1341.1Radiant 8"641.65.35$119.95263.4378.2Magnum XXXL 6"638.63.19$199.95303.4335.2Raptor 8" - At 25"630.32.93$214.95310.6319.7Adjust-A-Wing Medium **612.44.47$136.95291.9320.5Xtrasun Wing610.816.09$37.95224.2386.6Arctic Sun 6"555.64.75$116.95222.7332.9Daystar AC 6"540.45.75$93.95256.0284.4Xtrasun 6"535.86.23$85.95254.8281.0Melonhead 8"533.83.96$134.95231.5302.3Cooltube w/ Reflector Wing 6"516.44.92$104.95195.7320.7Sunspot 6"507.24.83$104.95243.6263.6Adjust-A-Wing Large **489.42.58$189.95322.0167.4Penetrator *** 450.83.79$118.95218.4232.4Parabolic 32" Vertical White ***396.810.19$38.95213.1183.7Cooltube w/o Reflector Wing 6"315.93.01$104.95144.0171.9
> *r2 = Repeat of test
> **Without super spreader
> ***We don't carry this item


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Now wait a minute. You pumped up the virtues of having a dead arc pole pointing toward the canopy in your super duper parabolic/cone type reflector and even though this design is supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread, you're not buying it cause it's overpriced? Did a cord come with that Blockbuster horizontal hood?
> 
> Don't know about you, but I'm buying light..... or was. I grow only outdoors now.
> 
> UB


I never pumped up any virtues, i corrected an incorrect statement that you made. And yes i do not think the 100% increase in price is worth the 5-10% increase in irradiance. Id rather wait a few years for the price to come down.

Wait you only grow outdoors? why the fu*k would anyone listen to you when it comes to reflectors then?

How would pictures of my garden make any of the science ive linked to more or less credible/valid? This isnt an argument over who's got the best camera and genetics, its a scientific discussion. Dont bring a knife to a gun fight. Attempting to handle me cuz you cant handle the science?


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Did a cord come with that Blockbuster horizontal hood?
> 
> 
> UB


Why wouldn't it?

From: http://www.ehydroponics.com/block-buster-6-air-cooled-reflector.html?&cid=12


> *SUN SYSTEM - BLOCK BUSTER 6" AIR COOLED REFLECTOR*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm thinkng about buying one this week to replace my Daystar.


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Kite High said:


> impossible for all reflected light to outperform in efficiency 40-60% direct light...the math kills their words dude...yep...one bounce and out when algebraic/geometrical math is applied...good crafty marketing though


Oh, BTW theres not a single luminaire in the world that has >45% direct light so you are comparing the luminaire to things that you just made up... how intuitive.


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> Oh, BTW theres not a single luminaire in the world that has >45% direct light so you are comparing the luminaire to things that you just made up... how intuitive.


ooops...I am so sorry...seems you know it all...so I will not waste anymore time trying to educate god


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> Here it is. The test was done by Greners. They only tested about 20 different hoods, and the PL Lighting Deep wasn't tested:
> 
> http://www.greners.com/reflector-test.html
> 
> Cut and paste:


thank you PJ


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## zack66 (Dec 12, 2012)

Well, back to the original post about fan leaves. This is my first indoor run leaving them all on and it payed off. 9 weeks flowering purple kush. All leaves left on.


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Kite High said:


> thank you PJ


I already gave you the link to that in the post you responded to attempting to 'debunk'. did you really not even read the links i provided? wow this proves such a point, one that you'll prolly never get.


Kite High said:


> ooops...I am so sorry...seems you know it all...so I will not waste anymore time trying to educate god


I don't pretend to know everything, but i can almost guarantee ive spent more time doing legitimate scientific research on the different sciences of horticulture than almost anyone who visits a cannabis forum. This doesnt make me better or smarter, just more informed on the subject. Id suggest checking your ego at the door so you could learn something too.


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

BTW to address the topic of this thread. i 100% agree with UB's position that defoliation will never increase yield. I have had one pheno of "Whitakers blues" (dj shorts blueberry X quimbly) that had such copious leaf output and such a low yield that you could remove a decent amount of the foliage without decreasing the genetically determined pathetic yield, but the defoliation never increased yield.


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> I already gave you the link to that in the post you responded to attempting to 'debunk'. did you really not even read the links i provided? wow this proves such a point, one that you'll prolly never get.
> 
> I don't pretend to know everything, but i can almost guarantee ive spent more time doing legitimate scientific research on the different sciences of horticulture than almost anyone who visits a cannabis forum. This doesnt make me better or smarter, just more informed on the subject. Id suggest checking your ego at the door so you could learn something too.


sorry you feel this way...I have spent more time GROWING MJ than you have probably been alive...think of your above statement...If at least 50% of the arctube in a horizontal fixture is visible then it equates to at least 50% direct light emission...and research or reading? EXPERIENCE not only reading...and with all your supposed research you only found less than 40 things to share in 2 years...whatever dude...last words I waste on you...have a great existence


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

zack66 said:


> Well, back to the original post about fan leaves. This is my first indoor run leaving them all on and it payed off. 9 weeks flowering purple kush. All leaves left on.


keep em on and keep em green is the botanical law which prevails


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Kite High said:


> sorry you feel this way...I have spent more time GROWING MJ than you have probably been alive...


probably


Kite High said:


> think of your above statement...If at least 50% of the arctube in a horizontal fixture is visible then it equates to at least 50% direct light emission


um.do you even understand math? that would require for the direct light to be emited at 180 degrees (50% of the 360 degree direct irriadince the bulb emits), requiring that the bulb be essentially 'underneath' a reflector instead of inside a reflector and that the bulb be placed below or level to the top part of the canopy to have that 180 degrees (50%) of direct light. if you dont agree with any of this, you literally don't understand what you yourself are claiming. If the arc tube is above the canopy and inside a reflector its literally impossible to have 50% direct light. understand?


Kite High said:


> and with all your supposed research you only found less than 40 things to share in 2 years...whatever dude...last words I waste on you...have a great existence


 I post on ICM under the same username since its the only active cannabis forum that has a decent amount of very educated horticulturists.

I usually dont tute my own horn, but you brought the subject up. FYI i am the first person to introduce many scientific facts into the cannabis community. I did not make these discoveries, i simply researched subjects that nobody has ever posted about, and then posted about them myself. 

I'm the first person to show that foliar applications of methanol and ethanol prevent photorespiration, increases WUE, promotes cytokinin producing PPME bacteria, and promotes pectin methylesterase gene expression. 
I'm the first to show that inoculations of arbuscular mycorrhizae increase glandular trichome density and essential oil (terpene) yield irrespective of nutrient acquisition. 
I'm the first to show that foliar applications of 6-Benzylaminopurine increase glandular and non glandular trichome density and prevent hermaphroditic characteristics. 
I'm the first to ever bring up strigolactones as currently the most effective germinating hormones known. 
I'm the first to show that polysorbate 20 acts as a plant growth stimulant when applied to the rhizosphere but not to the foliage.
I'm the first to show that excess calcium delays cellular (and total plant) maturation. 
I'm the first to do testing, design, and publicly share an entire PGR regimen that is 100% legally usable for edible crops.
I'm the first to provide a 6-benzylaminopurine stock solution formulation that stays in solution when diluted to working solution levels.
And i'm surely the first to introduce several other facts to the cannabis community, this is just off the top of the noggin.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> Here it is. The test was done by Greners.


As I said previously, they're trying to sell the highest priced reflector. They have a dog in this fight, they're nothing more than another cheesey hydro vendor hawking rocket fuels. From their 'About Grener' ditty:

_*For nutrients Greners.com carries the highest quality lines available on the planet today and including offering the complete line of House and Garden direct from Holland. We also sell all our customer&#8217;s favorites, including GH, Cutting Edge, Foxfarm, Humboldt Nutrients, Botanicare, Emerald Garden and the all organic General Organics.*_

I'm not to buy into their "tests". I only give credibility to non-partisan organizations who have no profit motive.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> probably
> 
> um.do you even understand math? that would require for the direct light to be emited at 180 degrees (50% of the 360 degree direct irriadince the bulb emits), requiring that the bulb be essentially 'underneath' a reflector instead of inside a reflector and that the bulb be placed below or level to the top part of the canopy to have that 180 degrees (50%) of direct light. if you dont agree with any of this, you literally don't understand what you yourself are claiming. If the arc tube is above the canopy and inside a reflector its literally impossible to have 50% direct light. understand?
> I post on ICM under the same username since its the only active cannabis forum that has a decent amount of very educated horticulturists.
> ...


Interesting. Would be interested in getting your methods, sources, data, etc. in writing. Link would be fine too. Are you affiliated with a university?

UB


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Interesting. Would be interested in getting your methods, sources, data, etc. in writing. Link would be fine too. Are you affiliated with a university?
> 
> UB


sure thing. It'd take me a while to track down all the ones i didnt make a thread for myself, so ill just post the easily findable ATM and if i can remember where i posted the others i will post them later.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=221235
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=226218
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5305781&postcount=53
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4835357&postcount=25
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=229062

as far as getting my methods im not sure what you mean, my research methods? I tend to provide sources and data with all my claims so just look in the links. Not affiliated with any Uni.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> As I said previously, they're trying to sell the highest priced reflector. They have a dog in this fight, they're nothing more than another cheesey hydro vendor hawking rocket fuels. From their 'About Grener' ditty:
> 
> _*For nutrients Greners.com carries the highest quality lines available on the planet today and including offering the complete line of House and Garden direct from Holland. We also sell all our customer&#8217;s favorites, including GH, Cutting Edge, Foxfarm, Humboldt Nutrients, Botanicare, Emerald Garden and the all organic General Organics.*_
> 
> ...


Sure, that's the standard pessimistic approach one could take. You should look to see that they did also include some reflectors they don't even carry.

My guess is that the profit margin on their "cheap" hoods is about the same as their "high end" hoods. I'm not sure what the point of putting that stuff in bold is.

They tested many different manufactures' hoods, they have little reason to skew the results. 

It's funny how even when you are proven wrong with scientific tests, you find a reason to disbelieve the results. Personally I never will believe any of your tests, because they are so obviously only done to keep your overly-inflated ego afloat.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 12, 2012)

I should also point out that in that test done by greners, they also include efficiency/reflector cost as "value". 

Their report clearly shows that the most efficient reflector is not the best value. Why would they include that if they just want to sell the most expensive light?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> sure thing. It'd take me a while to track down all the ones i didnt make a thread for myself, so ill just post the easily findable ATM and if i can remember where i posted the others i will post them later.
> 
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=221235
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=226218
> ...


IC Rag is not exactly what I had in mind. Do you have any scientific journal publications under your belt? I assume you're a little young IC Ragish for that?

Used to post there. IC Rag is no different than any of the other 100 or so cannabis related sites.


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## dizzlekush (Dec 12, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> IC Rag is not exactly what I had in mind. Do you have any scientific journal publications under your belt? I assume you're a little young IC Ragish for that?
> 
> Used to post there. IC Rag is no different than any of the other 100 or so cannabis related sites.


scoffing again instead of addressing the subject at hand. i've grown tired of your quibbling. if the format i share information on is beneath the great UB then i guess our conversation is at its close.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 12, 2012)

For someone who has a pic of himself behind a pot plant giving double peace signs as his avatar, Uncle Ben sure is full of a lot of hate.


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## Kite High (Dec 12, 2012)

get over yourself einstein...you are only impressing yourself but coming off as holier than thou to everyone else...have a great existence in your bubble


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## stumpjumper (Dec 12, 2012)

Almost chop day.. Green leaves...


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## colonuggs (Dec 12, 2012)

ya stump nice shit right there ^^^^^^ hows about some casey jones....I love the strans that have a small amount of fan leaves...easy trimin


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## stumpjumper (Dec 12, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> ya stump nice shit right there ^^^^^^ hows about some casey jones....I love the strans that have a small amount of fan leaves...easy trimin


Very nice!

Mine just dont want to quit, damn things just keep popping new pistils.. 90% cloudy though, I can chop any day. Just trying to let them pack on a little last bit of weight.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> scoffing again instead of addressing the subject at hand. i've grown tired of your quibbling. if the format i share information on is beneath the great UB then i guess our conversation is at its close.


Call me what you want but those who have been following my posts for years know me as a pragmatist who disdains the rampant posing, fraud and misrepresentation in the cannabis business. NO other industry has so much. 

In case you missed it I do not place any credibility on forum anecdotal evidence or hearsay. My education is on a university level with years of commercial horticultural and ag business which includes a Texas state Master Gardener's license and Pesticide Applicator's license.

I think what you're doing is great, very notable, and like my experiments one being here - https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html was done on the basis of curiousity. If you have a couple of applications that are notable, that are predictable, _that are practical_ such that they can be embraced by the everyday grower (including noobs) regarding increasing plant health or yields, please note. To be honest with you, not sure what "the results" are and why nobody is climbing on board your train. For example, my topping to get 4 main colas is going on 700,000 views with 4,500 posts. This training method is practical, costs nothing, and takes seconds. Your threads are doing 25 - 53 posts.

One of the most recent experiments I played with was using Paclo treatments on pure sativa - TFD's O. Haze. It worked. Such a phenotype that would normally finish out at 12' finished at 6-7'.

Regarding indoors gardening, I was researching and using different hoods while most (if not all) of you was still messin' in your diapers.

Uncle Ben


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 13, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Call me what you want but those who have been following my posts for years know me as a pragmatist who disdains the rampant posing, fraud and misrepresentation in the cannabis business. NO other industry has so much.
> 
> In case you missed it I do not place any credibility on forum anecdotal evidence or hearsay. My education is on a university level with years of commercial horticultural and ag business which includes a Texas state Master Gardener's license and Pesticide Applicator's license.
> 
> ...


You really think highly of yourself!...Glad someone is. How many other accounts on this site do you need to keep your ego inflated? I work with people just like you...Engineers have the same mentallity that their shit don't stink but when PROVEN wrong are not willing to LEARN from their mistakes.

I call bullshit on your schooling and background you know nothing about the AG industry. Do you know how easy it is to get a mention from Jorge? I do!...so stop thinking your all that because Jorge spit in your direction.

You should not be giving advice.


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## kinetic (Dec 13, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> You should not be giving advice.


Maybe you should stop getting so offended by Uncle Bens ornery old communications and look at some of the advice the man has given. Strip away your feelings and look at some of the articles all over the place on other sites as well that can give you alot of info. Want to pollinate a branch and harvest the rest of the bud? Use UB's technique for dilluting pollen and applying with a art brush or toothpick. There's lots of good info put out there by him. You have to get past the grouchy old man part.


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## chuck estevez (Dec 13, 2012)

I have to say, I have become a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better grower because of UB. and his advise. Haters be haten just cause he has a little tude. It happens when we get old. 
one thing I have noticed, if you give ub respect, he usually returns it.


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## colonuggs (Dec 13, 2012)

chuck estevez said:


> I have to say, I have become a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better grower because of UB. and his advise. Haters be haten just cause he has a little tude. It happens when we get old.
> one thing I have noticed, if you give ub respect, he usually returns it.



shit im almost 60 and I dont have that attitude.... UB your given us old farts a bad rap  

You know your old when you become a legend in your own mind


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## bde0001 (Dec 13, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Very nice!
> 
> Mine just dont want to quit, damn things just keep popping new pistils.. 90% cloudy though, I can chop any day. Just trying to let them pack on a little last bit of weight.




Those two huge buds are comparable to a set of perfect tits. That really is beautiful.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 13, 2012)

The end is very near for these girls.. Already at 90%+ cloudy with some scattered amber. Them big thick pistils just keep poppin so I'm letting them get their final push.

Here you go Uncle B... I left that necrotic leaf on there in the back just for you.  That plant had a potassium deficiency, my fault... I thought it was a Mag defficiency at first and it came on late, so I gave it some Cal/Mag and just escalated the potassium deficiency further.. (Excess magnesium locks out potassium) The Veg+Bloom I use already has all the Cal/Mag they need and I should've known better... Anyways with 2 weeks left of flower I didn't mess with it.. Not going to make a difference.

Gotta like donkey dicks though...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Dec 14, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> The end is very near for these girls.. Already at 90%+ cloudy with some scattered amber. Them big thick pistils just keep poppin so I'm letting them get their final push.
> 
> Here you go Uncle B... I left that necrotic leaf on there in the back just for you.  That plant had a potassium deficiency, my fault... I thought it was a Mag defficiency at first and it came on late, so I gave it some Cal/Mag and just escalated the potassium deficiency further.. (Excess magnesium locks out potassium) The Veg+Bloom I use already has all the Cal/Mag they need and I should've known better... Anyways with 2 weeks left of flower I didn't mess with it.. Not going to make a difference.
> 
> Gotta like donkey dicks though...


You just don't get it do you? 30 pages later still talking trash, what are you the "troll" mod. This looks like any commercial grow, congratulations!


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## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> You really think highly of yourself!...Glad someone is. How many other accounts on this site do you need to keep your ego inflated? I work with people just like you...Engineers have the same mentallity that their shit don't stink but when PROVEN wrong are not willing to LEARN from their mistakes.
> 
> I call bullshit on your schooling and background you know nothing about the AG industry. Do you know how easy it is to get a mention from Jorge? I do!...so stop thinking your all that because Jorge spit in your direction.
> 
> You should not be giving advice.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> That plant had a potassium deficiency, my fault... I thought it was a Mag defficiency at first and it came on late, so I gave it some Cal/Mag and just escalated the potassium deficiency further.. (Excess magnesium locks out potassium)


Exactly how does a K deficiency manifest itself? Your food has no K?

Nice indica type plants. Kudos.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

Just got my Peters order in. FWIW, I think I found the Holy Grail for a complete, start to finish fertilizer. It's Jack's Classic Peters Citrus FeeD, a 20-10-20. Compared to their popular Blossom Booster it has more Mg, 1% versus .50%, more Fe which is tripled chelated (EDTA, EDDHA, DTPA) to take into account any kind of soil chemistry, .15% versus .10%; 4.9% sulfur where the Blossom Booster has none, and more of an acidifying affect. 11 elements in all. Soil growers should check it out. What that formula suggests based on my knowledge of cannabis nutrition is a greener plant (think Fe, S, Mg) with less stretch and an excellent NPK balance to support foliage, roots, and flowers.

Uncle Ben


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## stumpjumper (Dec 14, 2012)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> You just don't get it do you? 30 pages later still talking trash, what are you the "troll" mod. This looks like any commercial grow, congratulations!


 I'm going to edit my reply to this to a simple and sufficient "Go fuck yourself".. Commercial grow? You don't get around much ey?



Uncle Ben said:


> Exactly how does a K deficiency manifest itself? Your food has no K?
> 
> Nice indica type plants. Kudos.


Locked it out with too much Cal/mag.... How it originally started I'm still speculating. I use aquarium water often and Ammonium Nitrogen could be a reason, but my tank is cycled and there should only be very small amounts of it in the water. I would think amounts high enough to cause plant issues would be harmful to the fish also, but that may not be true at all. Sometimes tanks go through mini-cycles and it's possible I took water out during a cycle when the bacteria weren't converting the ammonia to nitrates.. 

It could've been an early cal/mag deficiency and I just caused it all by over feeding cal/mag which is probably what actually happened.. 

I don't think it was soil PH it was testing fine up until my tester broke.. 

I haven't decided yet.


Yeah, it's AK47.. that's what it's supposed to look like.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> I'm going to edit my reply to this to a simple and sufficient "Go fuck yourself".. Commercial grow? You don't get around much ey?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Meant how did the K deficiency manifest itself? I've been doing this a long time and I'll admit, I'm not sure what a K deficiency looks like. Mel Franks discusses, haven't looked though. http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm Funny, that Cal/mag stuff. Never used it, never will. Seems like an oxymoron to me. Ca and Mg don't go hand in hand regarding plant uptake. Too much of one blocks the other. 

So you're doing aquaponics? Have friends who have a very large, very elaborate, commercial aquaponics farm using tilapia. Not practical if you ask me. Typical ideologues too - know it works, don't have an analysis of the nutritional content of the water. Recommend TX A&M soil/water labs for a cheap, quality analysis.

Good job on the AK47. Never seen it with colas that thick, always had a sativa profile and I've seen a lot of it grown as it was trendy to grow it years ago. But you know the Dutch, there's no telling what they are diluting the originals with these days. For example, my old Sensi Skunk from the early 90's sometimes shows rudy in it as it auto flowers once in a blue moon.

UB


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## dizzlekush (Dec 14, 2012)

The citrus formula is an average Jacks product for cannabis at best.

15% of the N is in the form of NO3, which is very low, at the max you want 15% of your N to NOT be in the form of NO3 (so you want >85% NO3)
Not a drop of calcium (3rd most required nutrient for cannabis)
Not enough B (slowest uptake out off all nutrients)
Not enough Zn

There's plenty of Jacks products that will do just as good as that:

Jacks Pro Orchid RO-Type Water
Jacks Pro Orchid Well Water
Jacks Hydro Herb FEed
Jacks Pure Water LX
Jacks Poinsettia FEed + CaMg
Jacks Mum FEed 
Jacks Pro Tropical Foliage 
and what i use, Jacks Professional Hydro & CalciNit (and other salts)

P.S. the blossom booster does have S in it, its just not part of the guaranteed analysis, but all the Mg in the blossom booster comes from magnesium sulfate (according to the label), so there's actually more S than Mg in the product.


----------



## stumpjumper (Dec 14, 2012)

Well it started showin up as a yellowing spots on the margins of the leaves then when it got bad it was obvious, with the edges browning and dying.

I wouldn't really call it aquaponics.. I just have an aquarium that needs weekly water changes, I use the water during veg since it's high in nitrates. Plants love it.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> Well it started showin up as a yellowing spots on the margins of the leaves then when it got bad it was obvious, with the edges browning and dying.
> 
> I wouldn't really call it aquaponics.. I just have an aquarium that needs weekly water changes, I use the water during veg since it's high in nitrates. Plants love it.


Good call. Was wondering about that. Went back and noticed your pots/soil. The only element my ponics friends know about is N. They add nitrification bacteria to their water which creates the nitrates.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> The citrus formula is an average Jacks product for cannabis at best.
> 
> 15% of the N is in the form of NO3, which is very low, at the max you want 15% of your N to NOT be in the form of NO3 (so you want >85% NO3)
> Not a drop of calcium (3rd most required nutrient for cannabis)
> ...


The only one that interests me is the http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-Pro/Specialty-Crop-Formulas/24-8-16-Tropical-Foliage.html But, I already have it (24-8-16) under another name.

I'm using the Citrus FeED on other tropical plants, not just cannabis.


----------



## stumpjumper (Dec 14, 2012)

That's odd, once established they shouldn't have to add any bacteria at all.. It's a cycle, the fish waste turns to ammonia which is converted by one bacteria to nitrites which is again converted to nitrates.. If they are constantly adding something then they are doing something that is killing the beneficials off, like chlorinated tap water or something.

Nitrates is all that matters to me, I don't think you're going to get any P,K out of fish water.. But nitrates is the pure form of N most easily and rapidy absorbed by plants.. Also having the bubbler going gives the water a little o2 boost. When I water with the aquarium water within about an hour the plants leaves will be all reaching up for the light, it's pretty cool.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

stumpjumper said:


> That's odd, once established they shouldn't have to add any bacteria at all.. It's a cycle, the fish waste turns to ammonia which is converted by one bacteria to nitrites which is again converted to nitrates.. If they are constantly adding something then they are doing something that is killing the beneficials off, like chlorinated tap water or something.
> 
> Nitrates is all that matters to me, I don't think you're going to get any P,K out of fish water.. But nitrates is the pure form of N most easily and rapidy absorbed by plants.. Also having the bubbler going gives the water a little o2 boost. When I water with the aquarium water within about an hour the plants leaves will be all reaching up for the light, it's pretty cool.


I don't think they constantly add bacteria, don't really know or care. Kinda like innoculating soil before planting legumes which I've done regarding acreage. Once it's there, it's there. Heck rainwater contains nitrates and beneficial microbes including mychorzzial fungi. People go over board on this stuff.....and it's all based on feelings, not facts.

N can be used for great benefit like you said. Want better uptake of your Maxicrop foliar spray? Add a little N like in the form of Ammonium sulfate. Wanna kick ass with glyphosate? Add ammonium sulfate. I use a commercial foliar spray of Fe called Ferromec in the field. They add low biuret urea to it to increase uptake.


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## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> The citrus formula is an average Jacks product for cannabis at best.
> 
> 15% of the N is in the form of NO3, which is very low, at the max you want 15% of your N to NOT be in the form of NO3 (so you want >85% NO3)
> Not a drop of calcium (3rd most required nutrient for cannabis)
> ...


I read some of your supposed research....you're a clown poser with a decent vocabulary...to do proper research requires a control and to keep your influences out should be double blind....once again you are only impressing yourself and your "research threads" are bullshit...even your supposed admirers on ICMAG have poked fun at you in other threads indicating they think the same of you as I...you should read around there about yourself then your lofty self image may become realistic...have a nice existence and when you learn to grow maybe someone will listen


----------



## cannawizard (Dec 14, 2012)

View attachment 2442199

..wait for it...


----------



## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> View attachment 2442199
> 
> ..wait for it...


is ok...got something for that...its the lovely power of IGNORE


----------



## dizzlekush (Dec 14, 2012)

dude you dont even know the difference between research and experimentation. double blind, controlled research? doesnt exist retard, double blind experimentation exists though, but not in any aspect of horticultural science. Double blind experimentation only happens for sentient test subjects, the test subjects being one of the 2 'doubles'. The plants are always fucking blind, only the experimenters can be 'blinded'. Its simply a blind experiment. god you don't even know how ignorant & stupid you expose yourself to be when trying to sound knowledgeable about a subject. I would make my experiments blind if that was fucking possible for a single experimenter to do in such a situation, hypocrite. like you've ever done any blind experimentation. holding me to standards that you'll never achieve... and BTW i've had a control group for every experiment ive ever done, and every grow ive ever done has been part of an experiment. 

My 'research threads' bring up relative facts that have never been recognized by the cannabis community. If you honestly cant see the value in learning that Arbuscular Mycorrhizae increase glandular trichome density and terpene synthesis, BAP prevents hermphroditic traits, increases yield and increases glandular and non glandular trichome density and length, etc. etc. then you're more hopeless than you'll ever know.

God damn, i left this site almost 2 years ago cuz of how often threads would go from having any value to boiling down to a pissing match. I only ever came back to correct uncle ben since i assumed he would appreciate an update on the latest in controlled environment lighting. Guess i was wrong, 1 post in 2 years and it starts another fukn pissing match. I instantly get bombarded with people that don't even attempt to thoroughly understand the science and position on the matter i provide, and insist that they're correct without providing a fraction of the evidence i do. any unbiased scientific thinker would be appalled. god damn why is this the only forum that cant keep it civil & friendly on a regular. dont worry about hearing my arrogant poser ass around here anymore. I know a waste of time when i see it.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 14, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> p.s. Why you hatin now PJ?


Huh?......


----------



## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> dude you dont even know the difference between research and experimentation. double blind, controlled research? doesnt exist retard, double blind experimentation exists though, but not in any aspect of horticultural science. Double blind experimentation only happens for sentient test subjects, the test subjects being one of the 2 'doubles'. The plants are always fucking blind, only the experimenters can be 'blinded'. Its simply a blind experiment. god you don't even know how ignorant & stupid you expose yourself to be when trying to sound knowledgeable about a subject. I would make my experiments blind if that was fucking possible for a single experimenter to do in such a situation, hypocrite. like you've ever done any blind experimentation. holding me to standards that you'll never achieve... and BTW i've had a control group for every experiment ive ever done, and every grow ive ever done has been part of an experiment.
> 
> My 'research threads' bring up relative facts that have never been recognized by the cannabis community. If you honestly cant see the value in learning that Arbuscular Mycorrhizae increase glandular trichome density and terpene synthesis, BAP prevents hermphroditic traits, increases yield and increases glandular and non glandular trichome density and length, etc. etc. then you're more hopeless than you'll ever know.
> 
> God damn, i left this site almost 2 years ago cuz of how often threads would go from having any value to boiling down to a pissing match. I only ever came back to correct uncle ben since i assumed he would appreciate an update on the latest in controlled environment lighting. Guess i was wrong, 1 post in 2 years and it starts another fukn pissing match. I instantly get bombarded with people that don't even attempt to thoroughly understand the science and position on the matter i provide, and insist that they're correct without providing a fraction of the evidence i do. any unbiased scientific thinker would be appalled. god damn why is this the only forum that cant keep it civil & friendly on a regular. dont worry about hearing my arrogant poser ass around here anymore. I know a waste of time when i see it.


blah blah blah... in your words your research is bullshit as it includes "experiments" befuddled by your expectations...dude your peers on ICMAG know you are a poser fraud so please stay there where you are tolerated...bap smap...if you truly know how to grow you could control stretch with environmental controls and if you knew how to properly grow hermies would be no problem...no instead you want to control it all chemically and your supposed research has yielded 0% useful data....SEE YA

[video=youtube;CyVuYAHiZb8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyVuYAHiZb8[/video]


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## dizzlekush (Dec 14, 2012)

Kite High said:


> blah blah blah... in your words your research is bullshit as it includes "experiments" befuddled by your expectations...dude your peers on ICMAG know you are a poser fraud so please stay there where you are tolerated...bap smap..._*if you truly know how to grow you could control stretch with environmental controls*_ and _*if you knew how to properly grow *_hermies would be no problem...no instead _*you want to control it all chemically*_ and your supposed research has yielded 0% useful data....SEE YA


I was gonna be done with you but you set yourself up so perfectly for this one that i couldn't resist. I guess you really didn't do much background on me and my 'peers'. I coauthored both of these articles with a journalist/chemist/co-owner of a nutrient company. Notice the bottom section of the first article about all the different ways of controlling stretch and right underneath all that the authors note, and then the top of the 2nd article  I wonder how i coauthored those without knowing how to properly grow?

http://www.manicbotanix.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27&Itemid=14
http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-grow-guide/beneficial-additives-in-hydroponics.html

The first article actually fails to mention that you can also control stretch by controlling the red:far red ratio of light on the lower canopy, but im sure you already know all about that.
Could have sworn i wrote about it to Grant (the author) but i dont see it mentioned. 

I am also the author of a short article that is one of the most copy/pasted and plagiarized articles of any cannabis forum, and guess what, its all about blowing the whistle on products that use Plant Growith Retardants (that control stretch) and my plea for growers not to use them.

Here is just a short list of sites that took my article in its entirety, ive posted none of these, but i did write the article. it would take way too long to list all the articles that just plagiarized some of my work.

(the top ones actually a sticky)
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/phosphoload-gravity-bushmaster-topload-and-flower-dragon-are-toxic.44342/
http://www.thclist.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=5367
http://answers.nuggetry.com/allergys-to-nutrients-used-to-grow-weed/
http://www.nwgt.org/archive/index.php/t-6436.html
http://www.fullmeltbubble.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-7312.html
http://www.stonerhaven.com/topic/501-feeding-veg-to-flowering/page-2
http://www.marijuanagrowershq.com/plant-growth-regulators-poison-marijuana/
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/archive/index.php/t-6279.html

Theres probably not a single other poster on this site that you could have been so wrong about what you just said. boy you really know me, don't you? Just because YOU'RE too stupid to find data useful, doesnt mean that people with intellect cant find the data useful. And BTW if you were intelligent enough, you'd know that you weren't insulting me by calling the research i've compiled useless, but actually insulting all the scientists, organizations and publication journals who spent all their time and money doing these experiments & providing the info to the public. Experiments & publications that I (unlike you, self admitted) personally can find useful data in to improve my grow and horticultural knowledge. dunce.

O.k. now im done with this place unless you set me up with another beauty like that.


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## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

dizzlekush said:


> I was gonna be done with you but you set yourself up so perfectly for this one that i couldn't resist. I guess you really didn't do much background on me and my 'peers'. I coauthored both of these articles with a chemist/nutrient company owner. Notice the bottom section of the first article about all the different ways of controlling stretch and right underneath all that the authors note, and then the top of the 2nd article  I wonder how i coauthored those without knowing how to properly grow?
> 
> http://www.manicbotanix.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27&Itemid=14
> 
> ...


plucking a nerve am I? ...look you self fluffing asshat keep true to your word and stay gone...oh but wait your insecurity about being revealed has you complexing to the point of futile self redemption which only furthers the accuracy of my statements..for if I were incorrect it would not illicit a response of any sort from you so now I reiterate...

[video=youtube;Q8Tiz6INF7I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I[/video]

and if you do not you are already gone for me cause you are now on IGNORE...so have a great existence


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## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

*Are you sure you want to add dizzlekush to your ignore list?*



*

[h=2]This message is hidden because dizzlekush is on your ignore list.[/h]


*


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## colonuggs (Dec 14, 2012)

hahahaha.... my dicks bigger than yours...so what, mines smarter than yours ..so what, mine has multi colors.....

so we have a crop of 30 pre98 bubba going...my bro trimmed most of the fan leaves off 6 plants right after onset (2 weeks into flower)

they have now been in flower for 6 weeks (4 weeks after the trim job)... headed there tomorrow... ill take pictures to show the differences if any


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## chuck estevez (Dec 14, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> hahahaha.... my dicks bigger than yours...so what, mines smarter than yours ..so what, mine has multi colors.....


 and I'll huff and puff and add you to my ignore list. lmao


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## dizzlekush (Dec 14, 2012)

at least the D bag will admit he doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about elsewhere, too insecure an ego to admit it to me though, even uses the fuk'n link & info i gave him. Any thanks? nope. had to have this giant douche off over an idiot that demands he's right to my face but admits elsewhere he has no clue. typical fu*king troll.


Kite High said:


> _*it is claimed that this luxor is best but I DO NOT KNOW*_...my friend who is using it has it in a parabolic
> 
> I use 3 400 cmh in a 5x5 two in PL Deep reflectors on movers overhead and 1 vertical cooltube in the middle down below the canopy


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## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> hahahaha.... my dicks bigger than yours...so what, mines smarter than yours ..so what, mine has multi colors.....
> 
> so we have a crop of 30 pre98 bubba going...my bro trimmed most of the fan leaves off 6 plants right after onset (2 weeks into flower)
> 
> they have now been in flower for 6 weeks (4 weeks after the trim job)... headed there tomorrow... pictures to following showing the differences if any


It rerally does have multi colors!! How did you know?

Nugs I like you and apologies for my behavior but just had to peel him to show he was a banana you know?


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 14, 2012)

My dick is more efficient than your dick.


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## Kite High (Dec 14, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> My dick is more efficient than your dick.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

Troll It Up.......yippee!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 14, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> My dick is more efficient than your dick.


But when you're always shooting blanks, it's not effective.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 14, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> But when you're always shooting blanks, it's not effective.


LOL, it's so effective my wife says I should wear two rubbers! Anyone need a baby made?


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## HeartlandHank (Dec 14, 2012)

Uncle Ben... I'm using this thread for this question because it has your attention..
I tried my own thread but not one person has responded... I have searched and searched for info... no luck...

I am having this problem with yellow spots on my leaves... both in veg and flower... the veg looks good aside from the spots but the flower plants have the yellow spots and also had yellow weak looking growth... during the 10-14 day of flowering period..

Here are some pics of the veg plants yellow spots on my SSH1xSSH2 from Beanho, a 9 wk SSH plant... Do you think this might be yellow leaf spot, blight, septoria? Or just a def of some sort? PH fluctuation? (in coco) A foliar feed during lights off with the circ fan off with epsom salt at 1tsp per gallon and cal mag + at 1/2 tsp per gallon showed some improvement with the yellowing, overnight. The yellow spots are still there though... especially on the SSH mother. 

View attachment 2442971View attachment 2442972View attachment 2442973View attachment 2442974


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## aknight3 (Dec 15, 2012)

zo0t said:


> keep da mofukim levz on as jose cerventes would say only tarded peeps trim da fan levz !


this may be on of the most ironic things i have read on this forum.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2012)

HeartlandHank said:


> Uncle Ben... I'm using this thread for this question because it has your attention..
> I tried my own thread but not one person has responded... I have searched and searched for info... no luck...
> 
> I am having this problem with yellow spots on my leaves... both in veg and flower... the veg looks good aside from the spots but the flower plants have the yellow spots and also had yellow weak looking growth... during the 10-14 day of flowering period..
> ...


Process of elimination, no fast and hard answers. (Welcome to the world of gardening). Based on photo #3, the small, round, yellow necrotic spots look like mite damage, check the underside of the leaves. Thrips, aphids? Hoo nose.

The bronzing of the margins _suggests_ your salts are too high. What are you doing "treating" them with epsom salts and at such a high level of 1 tsp/gallon? Now you've locked out some other elements. http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm Sometimes over-fertilization shows up as copper colored necrotic dots in between leaf veins.

Without being there to observe your daily drills from start to finish, it's anybody's guess what the actual issues are.....could be a dozen things.

The last thing you want to do is guess, not know fer sure what the problem is and take "corrective action" based on some crap you've read around here, like the epsom salts or pH advice. One 'aw shit' because you made the wrong call and your plants are history.

Good luck,
UB


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## HeartlandHank (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks you for some more things to consider...
I thought they looked similar to the stippling that pests can create too. I am just not finding this pest if so. I definitely know what aphids, thrips and mites look like. I have had them all at one point, in or outdoor. 

I have been using Dyna-Gro on this crop. My first time using it was with the crop I just cut down. It is still a little bit new to me. Perhaps I am over feeding. EXCELLENT results though, last crop. The best to date with, an S1 from a SSSC SKUNK x indica cross clone. Far skunk leaning.

i did notice some sludge/crystals in the bottom of the last bottle I had.... maybe those last few feedings with some sludge included (coupled with over feeding) has the salt levels out of whack.

As to the epsom... 1tsp per gallon was what I was reading around the web, for a foliar feed. It was my first try with it. The yellowing/drooping stopped. I did have to wash a film off the leaves yesterday. so yeah, 1tsp per must have been a little strong.

I was concerned it was blight... I have some mothers that are nearing 4-5 years old now. I was concerned that disease could be setup in my indoor garden.

Thanks for the help. The flowering is ready for a watering today.... I will give them a heavy watering (coco, drains through) with a 1/4 strength nutrient solution.


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 15, 2012)

kinetic said:


> You have to get past the grouchy old man part.


Sorry I do not have to get past anything! I too have a background in the AG industry, I have read pretty much everything this guy has to say and yes he has some good ideas and advice for BEGINNERS. What he doesn't have is the ability to be civil when someone more knowledgable comments or trys to correct his old fashioned out of date growing techniques.

Iam glad you think he is helping you grow but you would be much better off on your own

Sad that there are only a few members that see through him and his dated info, but that also shows the quality of growers here.
.


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## chuck estevez (Dec 15, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Sorry I do not have to get past anything! I too have a background in the AG industry, I have read pretty much everything this guy has to say and yes he has some good ideas and advice for BEGINNERS. What he doesn't have is the ability to be civil when someone more knowledgable comments or trys to correct his old fashioned out of date growing techniques.
> 
> Iam glad you think he is helping you grow but you would be much better off on your own
> 
> ...


well,I'm going off this

sir ganja, Pushes AN and raves about it.
UB, tells us it's snake oil and save your money.

gotta believe UB over somebody who pushes AN like sir ganja. just sayin

now watch how defensive sir ganja gets about AN, this will be good.


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 15, 2012)

chuck estevez said:


> well,I'm going off this
> 
> sir ganja, Pushes AN and raves about it.
> UB, tells us it's snake oil and save your money.
> ...


I don't push anything just post facts and if you do read my posts you would see that. Yes I like the outcome from the product but I also understand how/why/when to use it.

You can grow this weed with anything but the outcome varies from grower to grower because of their experience level and advice given. 

Sad


----------



## chuck estevez (Dec 15, 2012)

Sir.Ganga said:


> I don't push anything just post facts and if you do read my posts you would see that. Yes I like the outcome from the product but I also understand how/why/when to use it.
> 
> You can grow this weed with anything but the outcome varies from grower to grower because of their experience level and advice given.
> 
> Sad


 Ok, let's change pushes to supports, anyone who supports AN will never get my attention.


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## cannawizard (Dec 15, 2012)

*lets not make this a nute discussion  RIU has a place just for that under "Nutrients"  

If its regarding --to defoliate or not to defoliate, please continue~

cheers


----------



## akula (Dec 15, 2012)

cannawizard said:


> *lets not make this a nute discussion  RIU has a place just for that under "Nutrients"
> 
> If its regarding --to defoliate or not to defoliate, please continue~
> 
> cheers


I thought this thread was about hood effeciency, or comparing dicks? It's been so sidetracked it looks like an evolution of species chart. At this point I can't remember when this thread had any legit post made about defoliating.


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## HeartlandHank (Dec 15, 2012)

UB,
I think I have it narrowed down to an early calcium def... most likely due to salt build up... i'm on it.
thanks again.


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## zack66 (Dec 15, 2012)

Couple pics of one of my ladies with all leaves left on. Chop time tomorrow.


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## OGEvilgenius (Dec 15, 2012)

Kite High said:


> sorry you feel this way...I have spent more time GROWING MJ than you have probably been alive...think of your above statement...If at least 50% of the arctube in a horizontal fixture is visible then it equates to at least 50% direct light emission...and research or reading? EXPERIENCE not only reading...and with all your supposed research you only found less than 40 things to share in 2 years...whatever dude...last words I waste on you...have a great existence


But it isn't 50%. The light goes out in a circular pattern. You'll never get 50% direct using a typical reflector. It's completely impossible.


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## OGEvilgenius (Dec 15, 2012)

Kite High said:


> get over yourself einstein...you are only impressing yourself but coming off as holier than thou to everyone else...have a great existence in your bubble


Dizzle really doesn't scream holier than thou to me. Uncle Ben however, sure as hell does.


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## perdrick l. hapley (Dec 15, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> In case you missed it *I do not place any credibility on forum anecdotal evidence*
> 
> For example, my topping to get 4 main colas is going on 700,000 views with 4,500 posts. Your threads are doing 25 - 53 posts.
> 
> Uncle Ben


Better listen to him. The newbies UB constantly berates for chasing snake oils and perpetuating bullshit apparently lend credibility to his arguments. good lord............. 

[/QUOTE]


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## colonuggs (Dec 16, 2012)

pre98 bubba left el-natural all the leaves......3 weeks flower left








pre98 bubba alot of fan leaves timmed at onset....not alot of difference in nugs size


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## findme (Dec 17, 2012)

keep the leaves that way you can reveg the plant and have a head start in veg.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 17, 2012)

zack66 said:


> Couple pics of one of my ladies with all leaves left on. Chop time tomorrow.


Nice job. Love how those fan leaves are reaching for a good sun tan.  Very long leaf petioles, that's what it's all about.

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 18, 2012)

A recap as posted in another forum - 

_*When I do a double harvest (which I always do inside or out) I squeeze as much "goodness" out of the plant that I can. The lower popcorn buds will bulk up some, about double is a good educated guess. What I'm postulating which can be confirmed by analysing an outdoor grown plant is now that the upper half has been removed, the lower half (the popcorn buds) get ALL of the nutritional benefit of an established root system and auxins (which were in the top apical parts of the plant). The auxins which control growth (cell division/elongation) have now been redirected to the "new" apical terminal tips, or what's left. Useless if you lost your leaves down there, but that's never been an issue for me.

Chronological flower development plays a role too. Now you're focusing on the area that initiated flowers at the very last. By removing the top colas, they become "first".
*_


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## C Cat (Dec 18, 2012)

zack66 said:


> Couple pics of one of my ladies with all leaves left on. Chop time tomorrow.


Yumm what kind?


~C That Cat?


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## zack66 (Dec 18, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice job. Love how those fan leaves are reaching for a good sun tan.  Very long leaf petioles, that's what it's all about.
> 
> Uncle Ben


Thanks UB appreciate the positive feedback.


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## zack66 (Dec 18, 2012)

C Cat said:


> Yumm what kind?
> 
> 
> ~C That Cat?


Fem purple kush from BC seed king


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 20, 2012)

kinetic said:


> View attachment 2436604
> I made it large so one can clearly see where the focal point is on a parabolic reflector. Very evenly distributes light though.


Was bored, so I looked at that diagram a bit more. There is no way that you're gonna get perfect angles downward. For starts, the point of light emittance would be further towards the opening and the light reflected would be skewed all over the place, primarily on a horizontal plane, not vertical. If the parabola was more normal, commercial, it would be flatter increasing a flare out of light, not directional.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 20, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Was bored, so I looked at that diagram a bit more. There is no way that you're gonna get perfect angles downward. For starts, the point of light emittance would be further towards the opening and the light reflected would be skewed all over the place, primarily on a horizontal plane, not vertical. If the parabola was more normal, commercial, it would be flatter increasing a flare out of light, not directional.


I noticed the same thing originally, but didn't want to get in a big debate over it.


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## stumpjumper (Dec 20, 2012)

*




*

*




*

*




*


*




*


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## Sir.Ganga (Dec 25, 2012)

chuck estevez said:


> Ok, let's change pushes to supports, anyone who supports AN will never get my attention.


Thats too bad...an open mind will only make you a better grower/person. Until I find another product that works as well or is as cost effective I will galdly push(support) change.

There are 2 types of growers, one that just wants smoke and the others that need to understand and is willing to go the extra mile for their HOBBY.


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## colonuggs (Dec 27, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> This is currently the most efficient reflector available. It's a hybrid between the two technologies. Welcome to the brave new world!





Uncle Ben said:


> See the post above and welcome to the Land of Cannabis Stupidity.


Well UB.... watch the video... welcome to present day advances...just bought 4 of these to drop in a 10x10 tent

[video=youtube;2zVzgPPDTsE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zVzgPPDTsE[/video]


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> Well UB.... watch the video... welcome to present day advances...just bought 4 of these to drop in a 10x10 tent


"Present day advances"? That's the biggest sales pitch I've ever seen. Curious, do ya get a free liter of Brawndo with every order?

Look fellers, I'll say it again. You may be a sucker for the next sales pitch that comes along, not me. If you want to convince me of anything related to cannabis products, you have to give me a test done by a non-partisan organization, preferably a university.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> colonuggs said:
> 
> 
> > Well UB.... watch the video... welcome to present day advances...just bought 4 of these to drop in a 10x10 tent
> ...


Isn't a retailer who sells all brands of indoor lighting gear considered non-partisan? Which party would they subscribe to? I only ask because as you know Greners has already done this test. They show that it is the most efficient hood for light, but not for your $.


----------



## akula (Dec 27, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> Isn't a retailer who sells all brands of indoor lighting gear considered non-partisan?



The answer to that question is a resounding *no*. In fact a retailer would be the last source you could expect to be anywhere near biased. They will, however, find a 1001 ways to fluff up the products they do resell. If they do "highly" recommend one of their contracted brands over others it is more likely to do with higher sales commissions with one brand compared to another or special kickbacks provided from the manufacturer. Of course there is a fine line of a retail company selling cheap ass junk and promoting it as quality for sales compared to their own reputation, but that usually comes with the retail brand selection in the first place. 

Its a bit puzzling to me that you would even assume that a retail business sector be a "non partisan" when their only objective is to sell you at almost any cost. I thought that was pretty much a unwritten fact. As in "we know they are going to lie to us, we know their bullshit is simply a sales tactic, but we will pretend we are interested in the crap they have to feed to us". Of course I still dont know what this has to do with the topic.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 27, 2012)

akula said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't a retailer who sells all brands of indoor lighting gear considered non-partisan?
> ...


Good point. I guess I figured since they were comparing the different brands they sell it would be "less-partisan", lol.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> A university is not in it for the marketing, spin, and finally the money....... shit-fer-brains.
> 
> You're typical of the majority of this community, sucking up every line, gimmick and hoax _retailers_ throw at your feet. What did you get a degree in, Philosophy? Sure as hell wasn't Business Administration or Marketing.
> 
> Sheesh!


Please keep your profanity and insults to yourself. Fact is I don't have a degree. I need one or two more classes to get that paper. I never needed one. I work full time at a university now. The professors with phds and masters call me when they can't figure out how to make stuff work. I have taken college level horticulture and botany classes. I could have a degree in either with a few more classes. I went a different direction professionally.


----------



## colonuggs (Dec 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> "Present day advances"? That's the biggest sales pitch I've ever seen. Curious, do ya get a free liter of Brawndo with every order?
> 
> Look fellers, I'll say it again. You may be a sucker for the next sales pitch that comes along, not me. If you want to convince me of anything related to cannabis products, you have to give me a test done by a non-partisan organization, preferably a university.


So actually seeing the light meter results in the video for yourself isnt proff enough?? 

seeing that the luxor hood has more reflective properties and gives off more FootCandles than other hoods using the same ballast... same bulbs.... same 24 inch distance... by use of a light meter isnt proof??hmmm


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 27, 2012)

colonuggs said:


> So actually seeing the light meter results in the video for yourself isnt proff enough??
> 
> seeing that the luxor hood has more reflective properties and gives off more FootCandles than other hoods using the same ballast... same bulbs.... same 24 inch distance... by use of a light meter isnt proof??hmmm


Of course not. UB is hyper-cynical. He'll tell you it's some bait and switch or something. Computer modeling programs used by lighting engineers apparently mean nothing to old crusty.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> Of course not. UB is hyper-cynical. He'll tell you it's some bait and switch or something. Computer modeling programs used by lighting engineers apparently mean nothing to old crusty.


I'm a pragmatist, Plato.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 27, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'm a pragmatist, Plato.


I call BS on this. If you were a pragmatist, you would have derived your theories from practice, which is not the case here. You have not practiced defoliation, yet you have already adopted a theory regarding it. That's the opposite of pragmatism bro. If anything, I'm the pragmatist in this case, as I am practicing defoliation now, and after one run I will have a verified theory as a result, which I can then put back into practice. You seem to be confused as to what pragmatism is and what it is not.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2012)

PJ Diaz said:


> I call BS on this. If you were a pragmatist, you would have derived your theories from practice, which is not the case here. You have not practiced defoliation, yet you have already adopted a theory regarding it.


You and your noobie friends are all about theories. I deal with science only. Word is "botany". Look it up.

Since when do you know what I've "practiced" and what I haven't? OK, I get it.....you're not only a philosopher but you have the uncanny ability to see into file cabinets, read palms, and were voted as the best Ouija board guru of your graduating elementary class?


----------



## elkukupanda (Dec 28, 2012)

Hmmm..... I'm still new to the cannabis cultivation.... However, my 2cents here are... Pruning = reshape of the plant due to aesthetic, space, aeration, etc... Of all the little pruning I have done in my life... I have never ever seen flowering/fruit plants develop better flowers/fruits with less leafs/more light... Leafs and light go together... Simple as that... Even if you don't think you are receiving any light ( unless you are growing over 6 feet plants with a stationary light I don't see why people would think the light is not reaching.. Even then a little might be reflecting back there ) but don't blame the leaves... Instead buy another light or grow shorter plants.


----------



## elkukupanda (Dec 28, 2012)

As for extreme defoliation... Can someone explain me... How the fuck plants benefit from this during the 12 hours of darkness? Plants "grow" while they "breath" during their "sleep"... And do their extra things u know... The sun is essential, however, for something to be essential there also must be something intrinsic essential as well as a counter measure. We are the product of light and darkness... Millions and millions years of evolution.... Don't try to change that in a grow or two... Without even first creating an specific strain for defoliation


----------



## elkukupanda (Dec 28, 2012)

Another thing... Yes, I'm a believer that you don't need all the leaves in order for a plant to "survive"... As well as we don't need two lungs, two eyes, two kidneys etc... Yes, nature always thinking.. Shit happens and we gotta survive.. However, again... We are growing for maximum yield/potency... I don't think I have to explain what I'm trying to get at.... Just get more lights..


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 28, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You and your noobie friends are all about theories. I deal with science only. Word is "botany". Look it up.
> 
> Since when do you know what I've "practiced" and what I haven't? OK, I get it.....you're not only a philosopher but you have the uncanny ability to see into file cabinets, read palms, and were voted as the best Ouija board guru of your graduating elementary class?


Oh, hi. You still here? You are real good at slinging insults. Are you good at anything else?


----------



## Slab (Dec 28, 2012)

elkukupanda said:


> Another thing... Yes, I'm a believer that you don't need all the leaves in order for a plant to "survive"... As well as we don't need two lungs, two eyes, two kidneys etc... Yes, nature always thinking.. Shit happens and we gotta survive.. However, again... We are growing for maximum yield/potency... I don't think I have to explain what I'm trying to get at.... Just get more lights..



good points, for fun I will add. if you cut off one hand, the other will becoming stronger from more use lol.


----------



## Slab (Dec 28, 2012)

funny how the guy that started the thread didn't yeild shit and threw his equipment in the garbage. maybe he didn't remove enough leaf.


----------



## rocknratm (Dec 28, 2012)

ok, so I dont think fan leaves cause any harm or loss in yeild. Bud sites, however, in the lower regions can definately take away from upper bud size.

Air flow is the more prevalent questions regarding lower fan leaves, You can just pinch off the bud sites and leave the fan leaves alone. 

leave the leaves alone unless you need air flow, more photosynthesis potential


----------



## giantsfan24 (Dec 31, 2012)

I defoliated my last grow and just defoliated my current grow. I doubled my yield in my last grow from the grow prior to that and think I'll do better than that on this grow. I also minimized the possibility of disease in my environment, limited my vertical growth and improved the efficiency of my grow space.

The argument about defoliation won't ever end. The folks that haven't done it or didn't have success doing it claim it doesn't work while the more likely reason is that there were other issues with the grow variables. Something wasn't right and defoliating wasn't the answer to their issues.

I've never had a problem and it works great for me. I'll leave it at that.

Happy Trails 

PS. Trying to be civil with the uncivilized is fruitless  Making my point then not responding to critics is always the best use of my energy.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2012)

Slab said:


> funny how the guy that started the thread didn't yeild shit and threw his equipment in the garbage. maybe he didn't remove enough leaf.


And here I thought we had given him the best advice possible by telling him "less is more"....that he needs to remove ALL leaves as they just get in the way?

Hmmmmmmm, must have been a 'senior moment' on my part.


----------



## Slab (Dec 31, 2012)

HA, I bet you keep kids toys that fall accidently in your yard


----------



## Kite High (Dec 31, 2012)

slab said:


> ha, i bet you keep kids toys that fall accidently in your yard


bored much?


----------



## Slab (Dec 31, 2012)

Kite High said:


> bored much?


haven't been bored since I was a young boy, why do you ask?


----------



## Kite High (Dec 31, 2012)

because in 4 years this seemed important enough to respond to when you have only posted 306 times in those 4 years...indicates boredom to me but that is just my interpretation


----------



## Slab (Dec 31, 2012)

I could look at your post count in such a short time and state the same, what would be the purpose?


----------



## Kite High (Dec 31, 2012)

great...have an awesome existence


----------



## Slab (Dec 31, 2012)

I would wish you the same, but I wouldn't want to come off as being inauthentic .


----------



## giantsfan24 (Dec 31, 2012)

Slab said:


> I would wish you the same, but I wouldn't want to come off as being inauthentic .


LMAO!

Namaste


----------



## yesum (Dec 31, 2012)

Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Hate Producers?


----------



## MJG420 (Dec 31, 2012)

giantsfan24 said:


> I defoliated my last grow and just defoliated my current grow. I doubled my yield in my last grow from the grow prior to that and think I'll do better than that on this grow. I also minimized the possibility of disease in my environment, limited my vertical growth and improved the efficiency of my grow space.
> 
> The argument about defoliation won't ever end. The folks that haven't done it or didn't have success doing it claim it doesn't work while the more likely reason is that there were other issues with the grow variables. Something wasn't right and defoliating wasn't the answer to their issues.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree with this post anymore, I have never tried defoliation in all the years I have been growing simply because I have not needed to. However on my current grow I believe it has become an essential key to enlarging the buds. I may be wrong but none the less I will see what happens when harvest time comes around.


----------



## Slab (Dec 31, 2012)

I love you sweet leaf.

cool film about its medicinal purposes, had no idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qa0nLdVJiIg#!


----------



## PJ Diaz (Dec 31, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> You and your noobie friends are all about theories. I deal with science only. Word is "botany".


Well, in case you were too busy slinging insults to see this post in the other defoil thread. Science bro: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/602889-defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-21.html#post8453977




Bud Brewer said:


> Here are some studies
> 
> Here Is a study Compensatory growth responses to defoliation and light availability in two native Mexican woody plant species
> http://journals.cambridge.org/action...66467409990514
> ...


----------



## Slab (Jan 1, 2013)

these studies don't advocate defoliation for increasing yeild. they describe the effects of defoliation.

also how to get the same with less ( water, fertilizer etc.)

the third paper was written in 1974, wow talk about cutting edge and scientifc breakthrough

one descibes elevated CO2 levels from defoliated leaf through bovine digestion. 

here is the abstract from the wheat study ; Through reduction of water demand by defoliation during the vegetative growth period of wheat, it may be possible to optimize use of soil water and in-crop rainfall for enhanced grain yield and water use efficiency.

these are not Yeild improvment studies, plenty of those out there.


----------



## legallyflying (Jan 1, 2013)

This thread is soo comical. I really love how some people just inject these anthropomorphic theories or make blanket decisions based on the functions of some parts of plants without looking at the botanical systems that or reactions that are triggered by the completed action. If you simply applied this "your removing the energy producers" mentality to the plant then you could argue that ANY cutting or removing is bad. YOUR REMOVING THE APICAL TIP Holly shit!! man, you jsut cut the entire top off of the plant!! Oh wait, that triggers massive growth of the non-dominant tips and creates a bushier plant that has the potential to yield more under artifical light conditions? never mind. 

The truth of the matter is that canopy management is a critical part of producing the highest amount of high quality buds. If you don't want to take the time to learn how to apply this technique properly..its really no big deal. There are PLENTY of growers that learn one thing and are absolutely resistant to hearing any other technique or information regardless if it shown to produce better results. Unlce Ben probably being the biggest example of this. I have seen him pull the string on his back and claim "snake oil snake oil snake oil" on such products that have really come to forefront in recent years such as cold extract kelp and fulvic acids and using HPS for the entire growth cycle. 

The most skilled professional grower I have ever read about goes through two rounds of defoliation every cycle. This guy (desert squirrel) absoutely fucking kills it, like staggering amounts of yield and balls to the wall quality. This cat knows what the hell he is doing, down to PH specific rangesfor different portions of the grow and calculating nutrient profiles to determine the EXACT amount of each mineral he is adding. And this is in undercurrent systems which are arguably THE hardest method to master. If he is trimming fan leaves, then I am trimming fan leaves.


----------



## Slab (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't disagree with his method, it nothing like what these dudes are doing. 20-25% leaf removal is not a lot, and he does it at the end of the bud set.

he describes it as minor defoliation.


----------



## Slab (Jan 1, 2013)

what I would like to get is a better understanding of is leaf transmittance, and does it vary with the wattage of bulb.

I wish you guys would lay off with personal attacks, it's a real buzz kill.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> The truth of the matter is that canopy management is a critical part of producing the highest amount of high quality buds.


Care to point me to some scientific studies?



> If you don't want to take the time to learn how to apply this technique properly..its really no big deal.


And what are the step by step magical steps one must take to reach this nirvana?



> There are PLENTY of growers that learn one thing and are absolutely resistant to hearing any other technique or information regardless if it shown to produce better results. Unlce Ben probably being the biggest example of this. I have seen him pull the string on his back and claim "snake oil snake oil snake oil" on such products that have really come to forefront in recent years such as cold extract kelp and fulvic acids and using HPS for the entire growth cycle.


So you're seeing in uptick in snake oil products because resellers understand there's a bunch of dummies like you who will buy anything based on a good ad?



> The most skilled professional grower I have ever read about goes through two rounds of defoliation every cycle. This guy (desert squirrel) absoutely fucking kills it, like staggering amounts of yield and balls to the wall quality. This cat knows what the hell he is doing, down to PH specific rangesfor different portions of the grow and calculating nutrient profiles to determine the EXACT amount of each mineral he is adding. And this is in undercurrent systems which are arguably THE hardest method to master. If he is trimming fan leaves, then I am trimming fan leaves.


Guy does a nice job, but so will any one that understands plant culture and takes the time to design a good grow room. Now, I looked at what your Mr. Wonderful did, and it looks like to me he left all the fan leaves on.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/16k-watts-over-24-site-ucxxl13.37089/page-5

If you really want to see some fine grows, then catch the cannabis growing special aired recently on CNN. Watched it last night and those are some of the finest plants I've ever seen, mostly around Medocino. Leafiest too, just full of thousands of large, healthy green fan leaves - not a yellow one in the batch and they showed at least 30 gardens. Not one grower pulled fan leaves, and all growers both indoors and out ran circles around Mr. Wonderful. 

UB


----------



## Slab (Jan 1, 2013)

UB was editting my question when ur post came in, can you field that transmittance quest?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> what I would like to get is a better understanding of is leaf transmittance, and does it vary with the wattage of bulb.
> 
> I wish you guys would lay off with personal attacks, it's a real buzz kill.


I reported Sir.Gutter. Hit the mod button on these punks.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> good points, for fun I will add. if you cut off one hand, the other will becoming stronger from more use lol.


And folks get their stomachs made smaller so they can get smaller...lol


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> what I would like to get is a better understanding of is leaf transmittance, and does it vary with the wattage of bulb.


*R (red) and FR (far red) light is transmitted thru leaves.* Recommend you get away from these sites and do some homework. I did a lot of research on light transmittance, light quality, spectral analysis, photomorphogenesis (look into that one, Cornell U.) 

I doubt if many of these links are still good, but here's just a few from my comprehensive Link-O-Rama, updated frequently many years ago. Hell, might as well post the entire thread. This gives you an idea of what I was researching while most of you was still messin' in your drawers.

***********************************************************************************

LINK-O-RAMA

Word to the wise - buy a good grow book and check out some books from the library on plant culture, especially indoor growing. Grow some radishes, lettuce, and tomatoes before you jump into this hobby - you'll learn alot from that experience and will save yourself alot of grief. Alot of folks have never grown anything in their life (and that's OK), just don't set yourself up for failure. Best advice to ya - learn what makes a plant tick, and the rest will come easy.

I recommend the purchase of a book like Mel Frank's MJ Growers Insider's Guide or Jorge Cervantes . It is your shortcut to success, complete with graphs, photos, tables, and text regarding outdoor and indoor growing. There are alot of mailorder vendors that will ship discretely and can be trusted to respect your need for privacy. I can recommend FS Books for those in the USA.

Grow hard and well,
Uncle Ben

============================================================================

.......................................................LINK-O-RAMA............................................................

This is a composite of what I consider some of the best cannabis and indoor plant
cultivation sites available on the web. If anyone has any revisions or additions to this little
ditty that you feel merit consideration, please let me know. Also, if there are any dead links
I would appreciate a heads-up on that too. Enjoy and grow hard - Uncle Ben 
...............................................................................................................................................

LINKS FOR SECURITY ISSUES:

Test your proxy for security holes: 
http://www.all-nettools.com/tools1.htm

Proxies listed by speed or date:
http://tools.rosinstrument.com/cgi-bin/fp.pl/showlog?

Test your computer for Stealth, go to the ShieldsUp link:
http://grc.com/default.htm

Excellent free anon services:
http://www.aixs.net
http://www.rewebber.de
http://www.thefreesite.com/anonymous.htm

ID Zap-producer of ID Secure anon software rated tops by PC Mag:
http://www.idzap.com/

ZoneAlarm, an excellent free firewall:
http://www.zonealarm.com/
......................................................................................................................

Looking for a DIGITAL CAMERA or just need some technical help?

PROFESSIONAL & CONSUMER DIGICAM REVIEWS:

Steve Sanders is one of the best professional digicam reviewers IMO:
http://www.steves-digicams.com/hardware_reviews.html 

Another good pro review/critique site:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/cameraList.php3 

Great site which includes consumer reviews:
http://www.pcphotoreview.com/

Excellent professional review site:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/DIGCAM01.HTM
Use the "Comparameter" while you're there!

Critiques/reviews by links: http://www.all-digital-links.com/ 

Excellent consumer review site:
http://www.epinions.com/elec-Photo-Cameras-All-Digital 

DIGICAM CHAT FORUMS:

My favorite chat forum and an excellent resource for cam info:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/ 

Monthly digicam mag:
http://www.megapixel.net/html/issueindex.html 
....................................................................................................

GENERAL PLANT CULTURE

Factors affecting Respiration:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page28.html

Plant hormones and growth substances:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page30.html

How high temperatures can damage plants:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page40.html

Relationship between Photosynthesis, Respiration, and Light Intensity:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page54.html

Images of Cannabaceae :
http://bush.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA/imaxxcan.htm

Layering:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page89.html

Variances in cloning - you will need Acrobat Reader: 
http://www.orst.edu/dept/hort/faculty/Proebsting/hort311/pdf_files/07_Clones1.pdf 

Types of Layering:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page90.html

Factors affecting rate of Photosynthesis:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/2385/rate.htm

Topping explained and illustrated:
http://www.cannabinoid.com/wwwboard/growing/messages/37/37366.shtml

Everything you need to know about worm farming:
http://gnv.fdt.net/~windle/

NUTRIENT ISSUES:

A Systematic Approach to Diagnosing Plant Damage - excellent paper on nutrient imbalances, although formatting is a little hard to follow ~
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/hort/dpd/chemkey.htm

"Miracle" products - caveat emptor:
http://www.noble.org/ag/Soils/MiracleProducts/Index.htm

So you like "rocket fuels"? Download the PDF file and read the results of scientific studies stating that such products as humates and soil activators are worthless:
http://tcebookstore.org/pubinfo.cfm?pubid=934

Plant nutrition:
http://vengers.com/culture/fert.htm

So you like Miracle Grow?
http://mgonline.com/fertilize.html
http://www.angelfire.com/hi/AdeniumsofHawaii/miracle.html

Table 2 reference of the affect of fertilizers on pH and their elemental value:
http://www.ext.msstate.edu/pubs/is372.htm

DIY soil mixes...value of amendments explained:
http://users.anet.com/~manytimes/page41.htm

Organic soil mixes - excellent!
http://www.coastnet.com/~bcga/soil/potmix.html#standard

Explanation of the affects of hormones:
http://www.plant-hormones.info/

Plant nutrition explained by Dyna-Gro staff horticulturist-Essential vs Beneficial:
http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/nutri.html

Plant nutrition and The Law of Minimum
http://www.soils.wisc.edu/~barak/soilscience326/primary.htm

Essential elements, element mobility, and pH effect:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page74.html

Nutrients with similar deficiency symptoms:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page78.html

Humate products:
http://www.unifiedsystems.com/humicacids.htm

Damp-Off disease issues:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1167.html

Another site that addresses Damping Off diseases - excellent!
http://users.anet.com/~manytimes/page48.htm

Organic Pest Control Vendor:
http://www.ghorganics.com/

Insect Pest Troubleshooting Link
http://ipmwww.ncsu.edu/INSECT_ID/AG136/ncstate.html

................................................................................

Drug testing info. Check out the section "Adulterant and Other Studies"
http://drugtesting.freeservers.com/main.html

Everything you always to ask about Ozone generators but were afraid to ask:
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html
...........................................................................................................................

LINKS SPECIFIC TO WATER CULTURE

Maximum Yield magazine on hydroponic gardening:
http://www.maximumyield.com/docs/previous_issue.html 

Aquaponics culture:
http://www.aquaponics.com/

Excellent online hydro forum and support group
http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/

.........................................................................................................

LINKS SPECIFIC TO LIGHTING ISSUES: spectrums, photomorphogenesis,
light intensity, regulatory affects, plant responses to MH vs HPS:

Properties of 250W & 400W metal halide lights; check out the Iwasaki 6500K lamp!
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/dec/features/2/default.asp

Excellent review of many types of lamps' PAR values, efficiency, etc. 
http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm

Indoor lighting - HID's, excellent fluor info:
http://www.vengers.com/faq/faq14sec41.htm#data

Effects of Various Radiant Sources on Plant Growth - affects of MH vs HPS on indoor plant growth: http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/engpage/jarq/33-3/tazawa/tazawa1.htm

Spectral Power Distribution (SPD) graphs of lamps: http://www.squ1.com/index.php?[url]http://www.squ1.com/lighting/lamps.html[/url]

Chat room discussion on the affects of colored light on seedlings and mature plants:
http://www.globalgarden.com/Tomato/Archives/vol.1/0396.html

White paper reflecting the value of colored reflecting surfaces:
http://library.northernlight.com/ZZ19980116010012151.html?cb=0&sc=0#doc

Photomorphogenesis, or the use of colored filters to regulate plant growth/flowering
responses: http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/hort/sctop/photomor/Specfltr.htm

Use of colored row covers to regulate plant growth:
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/hort/sctop/photomor/Rwcvrs.htm

Footcandles, lumens, & PAR:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/intensorama.html

Light absorption spectrum of leaf chlorophyll and carotenoids:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page24.html

Light quality from artificial sources:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page25.html

Effect of light intensity & CO2 on Photosynthesis:
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu/lectsupl/print/page26.html

......................................................................................................................

U.S. UNIVERSITY AG PROGRAMS & PLANT CULTURE INFO:

The following is a *MUST-READ* for the advanced MJ gardener:
MJ Optics - THC influence by UVB radiation
http://freewebhosting.hostdepartment.com/j/jknuc/

Everything you wanted to know about soil preparation/culture but were afraid to ask:
http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/flori/growon/index.html

So you're a Micro-biologist? Well, here ya go....about a hundred or so excellent links to botany related websites:
http://www.biol.uni.torun.pl/~henroz/links.html

Plants parts that may be used in vegetative propagation /physiological and environmental factors affecting rooting. Excellent!
http://www2.ctahr.hawaii.edu/tpss/academics/undergraduate/courses/tpss200/vegprop.htm

Plant disease facts:
http://www.cas.psu.edu/docs/CASDEPT/PLANT/ext/fact.html

Online Biology Book:
http://gened.emc.maricopa.edu/bio/bio181/BIOBK/BioBookTOC.html

Ohio State Plant Facts:
http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs/hcs.html

Conversion tables, formulas, and suggested guidelines for horticultural use:
http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/B931.htm#Table 25

Texas Aggie Horticulture:
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/tamuhort.html 
.............................................................................................................,..............

GROW GUIDES

Marijuana Botany - by Robert Clarke
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Ed Rosenthal's Growing Guide brought to you by the Finnish Cannabis Assoc.
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............................................................................................................................

Can't forget our tummies! Cookin' with cannabis:
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.................................................................................................................................

VARIOUS CANNABIS WEBSITES -

Klozit King's cannabis culture guide:
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D.J. Short's Guide to Harvesting/Curing:
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http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc10/cure.html

Haight Ashbury Website - San Francisco
http://www.sanfranciscobay.com/haightashbury/ie-stoner.htm

Comprehensive cannabis site with pics of males/females and more:
http://www.erowid.org/entheogens/cannabis/cannabis.shtml

Great website links covering all aspects of cannabis issues and culture:
http://www.theflow.nl/flowlnk.htm

More great cannabis websites links:
http://www.thc.nl/ConLinks.htm

High Times Cannabis Culture by Kyle:
http://www.hightimes.com/ht/tow/culq/Welcome.tmpl$showpage?a=46&b=60

BC Growers page -
http://www.coastnet.com/~bcga/bcg.htm

Amsterdam growers:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hempy/index.html

...........................................VENDORS.................................................

UNITED STATES

Ballast parts and HID lamps, EXCELLENT prices:
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Charley's Greenhouse: http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/

Alternative Garden: http://www.alternativegarden.com/

Discount Hydroponics: http://www.discount-hydro.com/

Discount Garden: http://www.discountgarden.com/

Greenfire Gardening Supplies: http://www.greenfire.net/

Eco Hydroponics: http://www.ecogrow.com/

General Hydroponics: http://www.genhydro.com/systems.html

Greenair: http://www.greenair.com/product.htm

Greentrees: http://www.greentrees.com/

Harvest Moon: http://hmoonhydro.com/store/store.cgi

Home Harvest: http://homeharvest.com/table.htm

How-to-Hydro: http://howtohydroponics.com/

Hydroasis: http://hydroasis.com/

InterUrban: http://www.interurban.com/

Light Mfg: http://www.litemanu.com/menu.html

Pacific Hydro: http://www.pacific-hydro.com/

Simply Hydro: http://www.simplyhydro.com/products.htm

Superior Grower Supply: http://www.sgs-hydroponic.com/contents.htm

Worm's Way:
http://www.wormsway.com/

CANADA

Brite Lite Hydroponics
http://www.hydroponix.com

B & B Hydroponics
http://www.bandbhydroponics.com

BC Hydroponics: http://www.bchydroponics.com/

Homegrown Hydro: http://www.hydroponics.com/

Jon's Plant Factory: http://www.jonsplantfactory.com/

AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND

Hydro Shop:
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Accent Hydro:
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Hydro Warehouse: 
http://www.hydroponics.webcentral.com.au/catalogue/catalog.htm

HighLife Hydro: http://www.highlife.com.au/products.htm

New Zealand hydro: http://www.nzero.co.nz/hydropon/index.htm

UK

Evergreen Hydroponics
http://www.pavilion.co.uk/evergreen/

Esoteric Hydroponics
http://www.blunt.co.uk/

Nutriculture Hydroponic Systems - builds NFT systems etc.
http://www.nutriculture.co.uk/

Holland Hydroponics:
http://www.hydroponics.co.uk/html/products.html

Various Retailers:
http://www.ukcia.org/green/default.htm#horticulture

FRANCE:

Growing supplies: http://hydroid.free.fr/


----------



## Slab (Jan 1, 2013)

thanks Uncle Ben! very kind of you.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> thanks Uncle Ben! very kind of you.


You're welcome. Like I said, these links are really old and most are probably dead. If interested in a subject, copy the subject title and Google it.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 1, 2013)

time to catch up with all this reading...
thanks ub
only 3 links for general don't work...
less talking.. more spoiling...


----------



## yesum (Jan 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben, try to be more avuncular and less pedantic this year.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Care to point me to some scientific studies?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that special is from 2009 and it is available on netflix... also those were outside grows... no need for de leafing


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 2, 2013)

but im sure you know that being we watched the same special


----------



## jpeg666 (Jan 2, 2013)

UB spoiling more thread oh man


----------



## Digger Dave (Jan 2, 2013)

oHsiN666 said:


> can you explain why? without an explanation i can not take your advise...


Well you better! NEVER NEVER. pluck your leaves,that contain food for your plaint,how would you like someone takin away your cookies.


----------



## legallyflying (Jan 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Care to point me to some scientific studies?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Soo classic. FYI, mr. squirrel does remove fan leaves. Once before the flip and typically another time about 2 weeks after the flip.

But again.. I urge you, no, I DARE YOU to post some pictures of all your glorious grows that have plants as equally impressive as his. Many of us know that you don't even grow anymore dude. Just an angry ol man stuck in the 70's. 

Your right though, there hasn't been an reserach done on any of these new "snake oil" products. Everything is the same as it was 40 years ago. I am still using a beta max VCR and a tube television and growing in potting soil I bought from kmart. And while yes, scientific studies are nice, everything doesn't ahve to appear in a journal article to be true. Air pots...they work fantastic. how do I know, because I have seen a run of 40 identical plants...20 in airpots, 20 in standard plastic. Come harvest about 95% of the airpots had better root formation. But yeah, that is jsut BS snake oil crap.

Same thing with fulvic acid.


----------



## jpeg666 (Jan 2, 2013)

I tried to ask UB some questions once and he just gave a smart allik remark and refused to have a civil conversation lol.


----------



## jpeg666 (Jan 2, 2013)

air pots are nice they make the roots form as they do in coco, I love root mass in coco it is a giant ball instead of a windy mess of vines


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 2, 2013)

jpeg666 said:


> I tried to ask UB some questions once and he just gave a smart allik remark and refused to have a civil conversation lol.


please,*Fill this out,*


----------



## Sunbiz1 (Jan 2, 2013)

So have we reached a verdict yet after 64 pages?. I'm assuming the correct answer is to train fan leaves to the side when bud sites grow directly into them from underneath.

Although, in some cases I have found removing a few large fan leaves is more beneficial. It allows the 5 or so baby fans leaves underneath to flourish.


----------



## legallyflying (Jan 2, 2013)

I have found it hard to "train leaves" they jsut move back into place. 

I am in SCROG so things are a little different but what I have found after about 20 SCROG runs is...

AGRESSIVE lolipop. I go a little nuts, if you have a thin stalk..your gone. period. I usually cut off lots of the lower leaves that are really shaded, they fall off quickly in flower anyways and just start making a mess.

I have a round of upper canopy defoliation a couple days before the flip. I open op the canopy and this promotes more growth in the under canopy. I try to get things to be as even as possible. This is done through leave removal and attempting to balance out the distribution of auxins by pushing the large dominant stems down and pulling the smaller stems up. Auxins are produced in the apical tip of the plant (the growing shoot). They do supress lateral growth but they also encourage shoot growth, which is why I pull the smaller stems up.. to achieve greater growth rates on those stems. This also encourage greter lateral growth on the previously dominant shoot that I pulled under. 

from wikipedia... An important principle of plant organization based upon auxin distribution is apical dominance, which means the auxin produced by the apical bud (or growing tip) diffuses (and is transported) downwards and inhibits the development of ulterior lateral bud growth, which would otherwise compete with the apical tip for light and nutrients. Removing the apical tip and its suppressively acting auxin allows the lower dormant lateral buds to develop, and the buds between the leaf stalk and stem produce new shoots which compete to become the lead growth. The process is actually quite complex, because auxin transported downwards from the lead shoot tip has to interact with several other plant hormones (such as strigolactones or cytokinins) in the process on various positions along the growth axis in plant body to achieve this phenomenon. This plant behavior is used in pruning by horticulturists.

Once the stretch is over and SCROG training is over, I go through the canopy and remove any leaves that are "really" blocking light for lower bud sites. (apical bud sites). 

Lastly, in the last week or week and a half when nutrition needs begin to decrease I typically remove fan leaves that are blocking buds that need to ripen a little more. Often times in a crowded SCROG some portions of under buds will be pale green..almost yellow. I revmove leaves to help address this situation. I also tend to hit the plants with a round of liquid light at this time to help boost glucose assimulation. (Nutirent levels are also low (400ppm with plenty of fulvic acids (liquid karma and EWC tea) but this is getting a little off topic. 

That's just me though. I'm quite certain your results will varry. In addition, It has been very well established that what you do to your plants will have absolutely no impact on the health and yield of my plants.. so if you want to keep all your fan leaves... have at it. Then when you lay your head down to sleep you will knwo that you ahve all your solar panels in place and you never hurt your plants by cutting them with sharp scissors or razor blades. Good karma waves will wash over you and you will just be a better, more natural and well-rounded person.

You just won't have as many nice nugs as I will.


----------



## giantsfan24 (Jan 2, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> That's just me though. I'm quite certain your results will varry. In addition, It has been very well established that what you do to your plants will have absolutely no impact on the health and yield of my plants.. so if you want to keep all your fan leaves... have at it. Then when you lay your head down to sleep you will knwo that you ahve all your solar panels in place and you never hurt your plants by cutting them with sharp scissors or razor blades. Good karma waves will wash over you and you will just be a better, more natural and well-rounded person.
> 
> You just won't have as many nice nugs as I will.


LOL...this is priceless...

Awesome post..thanks!

Namaste


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 2, 2013)

yesum said:


> Uncle Ben, try to be more avuncular and less pedantic this year.


Oddly enough nature is pretty pedantic in her ways......


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 2, 2013)

Side note: If you are going to pluck fans then pluck/pinch them off. Your sterile cuts are only opening the plant to issues. Pinch it off so the wound heals quicker. Know at least the basics before moving forward...


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## Moon Goblin (Jan 2, 2013)

In my experience, LegallyFlying Is absolutely correct
Above was 8 lb. of dried fantastic MMJ. I would usually get around 6-7 lbs. until I aggressively lollipoped, and removed fan leaves that would not stay tucked from the canopy. BTW, it is a low yielding strain. I also found that if I were to leave fan leaves underneath the canopy the plant would release them daily- this prompted me to remove them all ( all below the canopy ) with in the first 2 weeks of 12/12- my thought process was to leave them during the "stretch" to lessen the stretch by using up some of the plants resources I also left a few under shoots, too, for this reason. a few cycles later, at a different location, I was unable to easily thin the canopy and I yielded only 2.5 lbs. per box- the same plants; the same food regiment; the same temps and humidity- identical. This has been my experience.


----------



## zack66 (Jan 2, 2013)

Nice set up man. Those buds look sweet. What size is your flower room? And what are you running for lights?


----------



## aeviaanah (Jan 2, 2013)

You guys still talking about this?


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## Moon Goblin (Jan 2, 2013)

Thanks a lot! a little smaller (interior wise) than 4' x 8', burning two 1000 watt HPS.


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## zack66 (Jan 2, 2013)

Definetly getting the most out of your rooms!


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## jpeg666 (Jan 2, 2013)

Chuck is also another troll on these threads


----------



## jpeg666 (Jan 2, 2013)

Should I prune this bushy fuck ?

View attachment 2464247


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## Kite High (Jan 2, 2013)

in a word no


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## zack66 (Jan 2, 2013)

Agree with Kite High those big fat leaves will make big fat buds! Looking good!


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## yesum (Jan 2, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> View attachment 2464208View attachment 2464209
> In my experience, LegallyFlying Is absolutely correct
> Above was 8 lb. of dried fantastic MMJ. I would usually get around 6-7 lbs. until I aggressively lollipoped, and removed fan leaves that would not stay tucked from the canopy. BTW, it is a low yielding strain. I also found that if I were to leave fan leaves underneath the canopy the plant would release them daily- this prompted me to remove them all ( all below the canopy ) with in the first 2 weeks of 12/12- my thought process was to leave them during the "stretch" to lessen the stretch by using up some of the plants resources I also left a few under shoots, too, for this reason. a few cycles later, at a different location, I was unable to easily thin the canopy and I yielded only 2.5 lbs. per box- the same plants; the same food regiment; the same temps and humidity- identical. This has been my experience.
> View attachment 2464216



Get outta here with that shit! Cervantes, UB and other cannabis authorities have assured me that plucking is wrong. Like evil wrong!


----------



## jpeg666 (Jan 2, 2013)

yesum said:


> Get outta here with that shit! Cervantes, UB and other cannabis authorities have assured me that plucking is wrong. Like evil wrong!


You can't think for yourself can you?


----------



## colonuggs (Jan 2, 2013)

jpeg666 said:


> You can't think for yourself can you?


yesum was being sarcastic


----------



## 80degreez (Jan 3, 2013)

I try not to remove leafs- the only time I do is if they suffer from some deficiency and die/have to be removed anyways- which is my (growers) fault.
If you are trimming to increase light penetration this can be achieved by tying your plants down instead


----------



## giantsfan24 (Jan 3, 2013)

I did...I'm at Day 21 of flower...



Defoliating has increased my yield. Non judicious stripping however isn't the answer..there is a method to it. If you haven't done a little of it in veg I might just wait till your next grow. It also depends on your situation. If you've got good light penetration, your humidity is running in the lower range for flower and you've got plenty of vertical space then I might just do a little pruning of the large fan leaves only. Leave the leaves connected to bud sites alone.

There is more to it..think for yourself and make the decision that's right for your environment. Do some research. I'll do it again around day 40 for the last time.

Namaste


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 3, 2013)

jpeg666 said:


> Chuck is also another troll on these threads


 Ok troll, Oh boo hoo, ub didn't answer my question that he's answered a hundred times before, so, now i disagree with his methods because i am sorely butthurt. STFU whiney bitch.


----------



## medical/420 (Jan 3, 2013)

I just removed my fan leafs a few days ago, and My plants looked like shit for a day, now they are full of new growth, sweet. I like it, i have always took some off, but i never to all of them off like i just did, i will keep doing it


----------



## Slab (Jan 3, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Side note: If you are going to pluck fans then pluck/pinch them off. Your sterile cuts are only opening the plant to issues. Pinch it off so the wound heals quicker. Know at least the basics before moving forward...



I would like to add, don't run with scissors.


----------



## legallyflying (Jan 3, 2013)

Actually, my buddy always taught me to run with scissors. Jose and UB will tell you that running with scissors is the way to go. You do what you want but when I lace up my running shoes and step out the door, you better believe ill have a pair of scissors in my hand


----------



## giantsfan24 (Jan 3, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> View attachment 2464208View attachment 2464209
> In my experience, LegallyFlying Is absolutely correct
> Above was 8 lb. of dried fantastic MMJ. I would usually get around 6-7 lbs. until I aggressively lollipoped, and removed fan leaves that would not stay tucked from the canopy. BTW, it is a low yielding strain. I also found that if I were to leave fan leaves underneath the canopy the plant would release them daily- this prompted me to remove them all ( all below the canopy ) with in the first 2 weeks of 12/12- my thought process was to leave them during the "stretch" to lessen the stretch by using up some of the plants resources I also left a few under shoots, too, for this reason. a few cycles later, at a different location, I was unable to easily thin the canopy and I yielded only 2.5 lbs. per box- the same plants; the same food regiment; the same temps and humidity- identical. This has been my experience.
> View attachment 2464216


Man I wish I had the space for this kind of grow..that said, it would be way beyond my needs...my current grow, I'll probably net close to a lb...will also be more than I need. Awesome...looks really organized..love that.

Namaste


----------



## jpeg666 (Jan 3, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> Ok troll, Oh boo hoo, ub didn't answer my question that he's answered a hundred times before, so, now i disagree with his methods because i am sorely butthurt. STFU whiney bitch.


The stick in this guys ass is very touchy everyone watch out


----------



## Kite High (Jan 3, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> I just removed my fan leafs a few days ago, and My plants looked like shit for a day, now they are full of new growth, sweet. I like it, i have always took some off, but i never to all of them off like i just did, i will keep doing it


thats right just keep picking all the fans off and just grow bud...you got it


----------



## jpeg666 (Jan 3, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> I just removed my fan leafs a few days ago, and My plants looked like shit for a day, now they are full of new growth, sweet. I like it, i have always took some off, but i never to all of them off like i just did, i will keep doing it


oh my lord your plants hate your guts.......


----------



## colonuggs (Jan 3, 2013)

we took off alot of our fan leaves off right after onset (the stretch) shit is producing great.... cant tell the difference between striped and not


----------



## basementgrower420 (Jan 3, 2013)

iunno i believe in removing them if ur stacking lots of plants in a room .. so that ur plants get more light ... taking off some fan leafs but expanding the light into the rest of the smaller leavse and branches has so far only helped me.. i dont go threw and take off all the leaves.. but i do take some off to get them to unblock.. i only defoliate after the stretch a little .. and then at 5 weeks a little.. and then the last 2 days before icut them down. ill take all fans off for easier trimming.. and i dry then trim for better smelling bud.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 3, 2013)

Here are my babies....day 13 of stretch and tomorrow I will be taking almost all of the fan leaves off...... this is going to be great.... I hope lol


----------



## Slab (Jan 3, 2013)

you should guide those tall ones outside the canopy and let the shorts one come up in the middle. 

if you ever do that in the future when you guide them out make sure they continue to grow vertically so you get the node length you need for a nice fat cola .

Plants look super healthy, nice going so far. check the finish calculator I found, shit works good scrog info on there also, the guy that invented did so for shop lights.

check it out http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/4060.htm


----------



## Slab (Jan 3, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> View attachment 2464208View attachment 2464209
> In my experience, LegallyFlying Is absolutely correct
> Above was 8 lb. of dried fantastic MMJ. I would usually get around 6-7 lbs. until I aggressively lollipoped, and removed fan leaves that would not stay tucked from the canopy. BTW, it is a low yielding strain. I also found that if I were to leave fan leaves underneath the canopy the plant would release them daily- this prompted me to remove them all ( all below the canopy ) with in the first 2 weeks of 12/12- my thought process was to leave them during the "stretch" to lessen the stretch by using up some of the plants resources I also left a few under shoots, too, for this reason. a few cycles later, at a different location, I was unable to easily thin the canopy and I yielded only 2.5 lbs. per box- the same plants; the same food regiment; the same temps and humidity- identical. This has been my experience.
> View attachment 2464216



Dialed in, well done. 

was looking for a Gorilla to come rushing out of it at any moment. 

I do see a loss when I see all that barren space. i am sure you can get production out of that area. your colas are not showing a boost from the removal above normal output or am I mistaken. were they larger and or denser? also, did it extend your flowering time?

just not enough light to get through or not enough nitrogen causing all the drop, i am still learning.


----------



## Slab (Jan 3, 2013)

Here is a good brief the subject Uncle Ben Recommended *PHOTOMORPHOGENESIS* http://www.public.iastate.edu/~bot.512/lectures/Photo.htm

later all!


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 4, 2013)

Slab said:


> Dialed in, well done.
> was looking for a Gorilla to come rushing out of it at any moment.
> I do see a loss when I see all that barren space. i am sure you can get production out of that area. your colas are not showing a boost from the removal above normal
> output or am I mistaken. were they larger and or denser? also, did it extend your flowering time?
> just not enough light to get through or not enough nitrogen causing all the drop, i am still learning.


, thank you for the kind comment.

I saw an increase in both bud size and density (the strain is a low producer)-- I have grown a "haze" strain for 13 weeks and received close to 7 lbs. in just one of the 

boxes pictured. The lower level receives no light with the door on. Also, the flowering time was about the same (56 days). If I was able (amp limitation) to add PAR (a light underneath), perhaps it 

could be used-- however, it is my belief that even if i were able to, the plant would produce the same amount of flower- unless, I were to change other factors in addition (such as the amount of food fed, and/or a larger root mas).

My method of growing creates all top quality buds, without a variation in density or potency... or, so I believe 

It is also my belief that I am getting close to all this strain is able to produce, given such factors as root mas, CO2 (I dont supplement any), amount of nutrients applied to the root zone, and PAR-- all of which is at their full capacity given my situation, or limitations


----------



## charface (Jan 4, 2013)

This makes me wonder about another aspect.

I have never tried major defoliating so I have no idea but 
what happens if you over nute or have other problems? Usually you would see it in leaf. Are you still able to read the plants and do the leafs not act as a buffer?
Honest question. Thanks


----------



## smellzlikeskunkyum (Jan 4, 2013)

about the OP. i pluck fans ALOT in veg and only in very early flower. u need to do it systematically IMO. yes it certainly increases bud sites and growth when done properly. u need a healthy plant with good roots too... some strains hate it tho. usually the non toppers.


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 4, 2013)

charface said:


> This makes me wonder about another aspect.
> 
> I have never tried major defoliating so I have no idea but
> what happens if you over nute or have other problems? Usually you would see it in leaf. Are you still able to read the plants and do the leafs not act as a buffer?
> Honest question. Thanks


 I have worked with this specific strain for years and years, so I'm not too worried about deficiencies or problems related to food or environment-- but, you bring up a good point-- one I would take into consideration if I were to experiment with either new genetics, or a new "food" regiment. Even, a new environment.


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 4, 2013)

Slab said:


> Here is a good brief the subject Uncle Ben Recommended *PHOTOMORPHOGENESIS* http://www.public.iastate.edu/~bot.512/lectures/Photo.htm
> 
> later all!


 I am thoroughly impressed and...well, lost. Damn nomenclature!


----------



## Ninjabowler (Jan 4, 2013)

UncleBuck said:


> why did Dog put all these leaves on my plant?


Baaahahahahaa....if you want to get more light to them just "scrog" them. Pull them apart to let light in, so to speak. Scrog trims leaves and bottom branches that will have zero light penetration to them, under the canopy. The branches with buds, light, leaves, and magic powers above the trellis thank you for under shucking in scrog but if you can avoid it, avoid it except when you think theres going to be waste. IMPO


----------



## Ninjabowler (Jan 4, 2013)

+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Lol.
> 
> I think when they cut off everything for a SCROG they do it before flip, or before flowering at least. I trim everything from the bottom six inches of the plant right before I flip.
> 
> And yea, the leaves absorb all that energy. Some people tie them or pin them down gently, the most I ever do is kinda tuck them down a little bit if there's a bigger bud next to them.


I cut mine off two weeks after i flip but shoulda done three I think. They streched.


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## colonuggs (Jan 4, 2013)

ohh shit.... where did all the leaves go?? I was told you cant take off the leaves 



before .... plants striped almost bare after the onset (the stretch)










.........after.....shit nug city........i guess defolage doesnt work


----------



## Sunbiz1 (Jan 4, 2013)

colonuggs said:


> ohh shit.... where did all the leaves go?? I was told you cant take off the leaves
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hehe!, end of debate right here.


----------



## medical/420 (Jan 4, 2013)

jpeg666 said:


> oh my lord your plants hate your guts.......



Dude they are loving it,


----------



## legallyflying (Jan 4, 2013)

colonuggs said:


> ohh shit.... where did all the leaves go?? I was told you cant take off the leaves
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, the buds look great, but your missing out on all that wonderful kief. I'll say it again, I smoke the leaves and throw the buds away.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 4, 2013)

Slab said:


> Here is a good brief the subject Uncle Ben Recommended *PHOTOMORPHOGENESIS* http://www.public.iastate.edu/~bot.512/lectures/Photo.htm
> 
> later all!


good read... now i feel in terms of pr and pfr... my ignorance at the beginning of the article went from pfr to pr... by the end.. i saw the light and it switched from pr to pfr


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## keebo3000 (Jan 4, 2013)

Here we go day number 14 of 12/12 and im about to do a full on extreme de-leafing!!!!!! Wish me luck... or hate... I am truly loving this experiment!!


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## giantsfan24 (Jan 4, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> Here we go day number 14 of 12/12 and im about to do a full on extreme de-leafing!!!!!!View attachment 2467007View attachment 2467008View attachment 2467009View attachment 2467010View attachment 2467012View attachment 2467013 Wish me luck... or hate... I am truly loving this experiment!!


So what's your plan? I wouldn't just go about snipping off leaves without a plan..just sayin..

You want to do this carefully especially if you haven't already done a little defoliating/pruning in veg..

Just trying to be of service..not trying to offend.

Namaste


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 4, 2013)

giantsfan24 said:


> So what's your plan? I wouldn't just go about snipping off leaves without a plan..just sayin..
> 
> You want to do this carefully especially if you haven't already done a little defoliating/pruning in veg..
> 
> ...



the plan was to remove all fan leaves large or medium and yes this entire run i've been DE-leafing since third node........ and here are my strippers ready for the pole.....View attachment 2467212View attachment 2467214View attachment 2467216


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## renegade23 (Jan 4, 2013)

nice keebo,keep doing your thanng. I've been catching up and reading up, looking forward to seeing your results. defoliating goes against all your intuition, but results don't lie. only thing I wished you had kept a control plant to compare. but good job and I'm looking forward to your next pix. 

p.s. f them haters


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## Moon Goblin (Jan 5, 2013)

Keebo3000,
I am super interested in how your grow comes out. Could I possibly talk you into a grow journal? perhaps, with a weekly up date with pictures?


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 5, 2013)

NVM, just saw you have one. Subscribed.


https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog25612-2-part-experiment-defoliation-along.html


----------



## colonuggs (Jan 5, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Yeah, the buds look great, but your missing out on all that wonderful kief. I'll say it again, I smoke the leaves and throw the buds away.



keif made from what??? the shade leaves or sucker/water leaf???? Those leaves are used by some to make the low end kief.... I dont even use fan leaves for butter..yuuk

the crystally leaf trimmings from close to the buds in the final trim is what you want to use for the kill kief


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 5, 2013)

So far what I have seen proven:

Some know how to pluck leaves.
Plants do have the ability to recover after being stressed.
And there are some good growers, misguided, but still good growers.


Still waiting on something that actually proves increased yield.


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## cannawizard (Jan 5, 2013)

im still on the fence about this topic, certain strains respond well with defoliation and some do not, thanks to all those who have submitted their own grow experiences concerning this technique without belittling others 

#cheers


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> So far what I have seen proven:
> 
> Some know how to pluck leaves.
> Plants do have the ability to recover after being stressed.
> ...


Maybe, you could take up the task of performing an "experiment" for us all?


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 5, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> im still on the fence about this topic, certain strains respond well with defoliation and some do not, thanks to all those who have submitted their own grow experiences concerning this technique without belittling others
> 
> #cheers


123456789 characters 

Liked


----------



## Slab (Jan 5, 2013)

that hurt me to see those plants. looked like hiroshima in that bitch


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm just gonna say, I like my plants to focus there energy on bud production, not regenerating all the leaf I cut off.


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## Moon Goblin (Jan 5, 2013)

Slab said:


> that hurt me to see those plants. looked like hiroshima in that bitch


I agree- that was a little shocking.

@*colonuggs:
* what genetics are/were those?


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## Moon Goblin (Jan 5, 2013)

in the grow Colonuggs posted, I would have preferred something like this:
[video=youtube;IpOI5h3Vqbg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpOI5h3Vqbg&amp;list=UU4iRqSoCvN1nKQQ4qGwiwVQ&amp; index=11[/video]
I am still quite impressed , however, with the final picture in his post.


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## Sir.Ganga (Jan 5, 2013)

yesum said:


> Get outta here with that shit! Cervantes, UB and other cannabis authorities have assured me that plucking is wrong. Like evil wrong!


Well OBVIOUSLY they are not AUTHORITIES are they then? Just because you have a book on the subject doesn't mean that his way is the only way and he himself has said its time to UPDATE the bible with better more up to date information. Why would you put Jorge in the same sentence as UB? There is no comparision IMO, One knows all and the other is a Know-it-ALL.

Respect the man not the wannabe


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## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> Keebo3000,
> I am super interested in how your grow comes out. Could I possibly talk you into a grow journal? perhaps, with a weekly up date with pictures?


stay tuned, i will be posting once a week pics on fridays


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 5, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Well OBVIOUSLY they are not AUTHORITIES are they then? Just because you have a book on the subject doesn't mean that his way is the only way and he himself has said its time to UPDATE the bible with better more up to date information. Why would you put Jorge in the same sentence as UB? There is no comparision IMO, One knows all and the other is a Know-it-ALL.
> 
> Respect the man not the wannabe


oh boo hoo, you just love to piss all over UB. I wonder why, could it be , you work for advanced nutrients and UB tells everyone about there B.S? HMMMMM?? very interesting. I see no other reason why you have such a hard on for UB?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> oh boo hoo, you just love to piss all over UB. I wonder why, could it be , you work for advanced nutrients and UB tells everyone about there B.S? HMMMMM?? very interesting. I see no other reason why you have such a hard on for UB?


umm besides him being an absolute douche to every person who happens to disagree with him? ^^^^^^kiss-ass


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## chuck estevez (Jan 5, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> umm besides him being an absolute douche to every person who happens to disagree with him? ^^^^^^kiss-ass


uh oh, another person who is butthurt because UB wasn't a nice person. should i call the whambulance for you babies?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> uh oh, another person who is butthurt because UB wasn't a nice person. should i call the whambulance for you babies?


call me crazy or maybe it's just the morals i was brought up with there really isnt a need to be rude to anyone. some people get off on that type of thing. makes thing go better for them in their own life im assuming. and honestly i feel a little sad for him. no one should be that bitter... besides me and unk? we are the best of friends, and being such good friends with him i tell him you dont have to make other feel low to make yourself feel better.......unless that is your only joy in this world, if that is the case... carry on.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

he carried on.... feel better unk and minion.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 5, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> Maybe, you could take up the task of performing an "experiment" for us all?


I have done many over the years with many different plants. The one thing I have found common in all of them is its a very, very rare occasion that you can manipulate a plant to yield beyond its genetic potential.


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## chuck estevez (Jan 5, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> call me crazy or maybe it's just the morals i was brought up with there really isnt a need to be rude to anyone. some people get off on that type of thing. makes thing go better for them in their own life im assuming. and honestly i feel a little sad for him. no one should be that bitter... besides me and unk? we are the best of friends, and being such good friends with him i tell him you dont have to make other feel low to make yourself feel better.......unless that is your only joy in this world, if that is the case... carry on.


 right, and so you finish your reply to me by calling me an ass kisser, if that doesn't make you a hypocrite, I don't know what does.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 5, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> umm besides him being an absolute douche to every person who happens to disagree with him? ^^^^^^kiss-ass


UB is a douche and you are a smartass. Personally I see little distinction between the two...


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 5, 2013)

And I am considered a troll because I disagree with reasonable comments and posts...


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## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

a hit dog will holler. as my grandfather would so eloquently put it. I never called you anything i merely suggested. hi alex!!


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 5, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> a hit dog will holler. as my grandfather would so eloquently put it. I never called you anything i merely suggested. hi alex!!


tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel like your not just a troll.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> you are a smartass..


man I am not just a smartass, the epitome of a smartass is what i am. thanks for noticing!!...I am a little confused as to why you would insult yourself but hey to each his own. how have you been?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel like your not just a troll.


^^^^^^#winning!!! lol


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 5, 2013)

Chuck may be on the right path Keeb. You have been editing quotes just for your benefit. Just saying...


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## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Chuck may be on the right path Keeb. You have been editing quotes just for your benefit. Just saying...


you know i probably did butt my comment in, when i wasnt being adressed but my comical side got the better of me, although i do believe trashing people because of ideas they have is bogus, i shouldn't break out my soapbox every time the fore mentioned hater is sided with that makes me, just as you said the same so... apologies all around, especially to mr. estevez trolling done. now back to defoliation


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## keebo3000 (Jan 5, 2013)

i used heavy16 foliar spray a week prior to de-leafing and i think it helped ALOT with the shock of the slice/dice after cut they were leaning down sad 

looking. which of course scared me, but with experiments you must take chances but after about two hours they perked back up into praying position(the little leaves that were left so.. they seem to be okay... i will know for sure tonight when they wake up.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 5, 2013)

Gotta hand it to you Keeb. Your certainly going to prove what a hardy, resilient plant cannabis is. And your also transferring growth energy. Props...

use me and abuse me and you will never lose me...may have been a more appropriate title.


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## Oghazybread (Jan 5, 2013)

HAHA yeah right. I dont touch my leaves. I grow lolipop, I bend them back if I have to.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 5, 2013)

The links and reading are pretty damn good here:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/plants-and-crops/fruits-vegetables-and-herbs

You wont get brainwashed...no offense intended.


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## Nice Ol Bud (Jan 5, 2013)

Nuff said in post 1.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 5, 2013)

damm with this good reads.... wooot... less talking more spoiling plezzz


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## Sir.Ganga (Jan 6, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> oh boo hoo, you just love to piss all over UB. I wonder why, could it be , you work for advanced nutrients and UB tells everyone about there B.S? HMMMMM?? very interesting. I see no other reason why you have such a hard on for UB?


You wonder why? Its because of idiots like you...UB is so high on himself he forgets that there are others on here that see through his BS, you not being one of them, which tells me your growing knowledge.

I wish I worked for AN...it sure would bring the costs down, not paying for nute.

Alexander...maybe you should really start taking notes or something??? A grower that is on his game and knows his stuff should be able to better the genetic yeild. This number is an easy goal for anyone that is willing to put in the time. I have yet had a strain that I didn't yeild better that expected. This should be common knowledge for a grower of your caliper.

Another fine statement from the great Alexander, real growers see right through your crap, while idiots, like the guy above, fall all over the BS because they really do not know better. Stop pumping yourself up on the back of noobs.


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## Kite High (Jan 6, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Well OBVIOUSLY they are not AUTHORITIES are they then? Just because you have a book on the subject doesn't mean that his way is the only way and he himself has said its time to UPDATE the bible with better more up to date information. Why would you put Jorge in the same sentence as UB? There is no comparision IMO, One knows all and the other is a Know-it-ALL.
> 
> Respect the man not the wannabe


smells like you're the douche...and your obvious faith in Jorge proves you dont know anything but what you read...Jorge shows off OTHER people's grows and knows how to write and market books


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## chuck estevez (Jan 6, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> You wonder why? Its because of idiots like you...UB is so high on himself he forgets that there are others on here that see through his BS, you not being one of them, which tells me your growing knowledge.
> 
> I wish I worked for AN...it sure would bring the costs down, not paying for nute.
> 
> ...


again, I read UB's advise and save money and grow dank. If i listened to you, i would have to go out and spend more money on a shitty companies nutrients, and after spending all that money, you want me to stop using these expensive nutes at the most important time and try and flush out these expensive nutes. AND I"M THE ONE WHO"S UNINFORMED?? LMFAO


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 6, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> again, I read UB's advise and save money and grow dank. If i listened to you, i would have to go out and spend more money on a shitty companies nutrients, and after spending all that money, you want me to stop using these expensive nutes at the most important time and try and flush out these expensive nutes. AND I"M THE ONE WHO"S UNINFORMED?? LMFAO


But Chuck if you bought all that shit you could be taking plants past their genetic limits like Sir G!


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 6, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> But Chuck if you bought all that shit you could be taking plants past their genetic limits like Sir G!


right, because the breeders didn't do enough in making there genetics. I need AN to make my awesome genetics more awesome.Now I get it. the magic is in the bottles.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2013)

Kite High said:


> smells like you're the douche...and your obvious faith in Jorge proves you dont know anything but what you read...Jorge shows off OTHER people's grows and knows how to write and market books


That's true and as long as you understand that and the fact that there is going to be some incorrect information as presented by his plagarized sources and/or skewed by Jorge himself, then it's OK. His Bible is a collection of the huge and now defunct Overgrow members' posts and FAQ's, including mine. Mel Frank is the best source for information, especially for the noob as it's based purely on botany, not hype. 1982 release....and still going strong.

UB


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 6, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's true and as long as you understand that and the fact that there is going to be some incorrect information as presented by his plagarized sources and/or skewed by Jorge himself, then it's OK. His Bible is a collection of the huge and now defunct Overgrow members' posts and FAQ's, including mine. Mel Frank is the best source for information, especially for the noob as it's based purely on botany, not hype. 1982 release....and still going strong.
> 
> UB


There's an error in my 2006 version of the book. I should tell George about it, so I can get the white boy to send me a free copy with his name misspelled too.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 6, 2013)

You might want to check out this other book he wrote:


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 6, 2013)

One thing I respect about Ed Rosenthal is that he was always Ed Rosenthal. +rep Ed.


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## Brizzy (Jan 6, 2013)

My verdict: 
Keep some fan leaves but for the most part they just block light. Bud sites grow proportionally to the amount of light they get.
Ppl that say "it needs leave or it wouldn't grow em" - do you cut your hair and trim your finger/toe nails? Better stop that, you wouldn't grow those if you didn't need em by your logic


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## Kite High (Jan 7, 2013)

Brizzy said:


> My verdict:
> Keep some fan leaves but for the most part they just block light. Bud sites grow proportionally to the amount of light they get.
> Ppl that say "it needs leave or it wouldn't grow em" - do you cut your hair and trim your finger/toe nails? Better stop that, you wouldn't grow those if you didn't need em by your logic


totally irrelevant analogy as nails and hair do not produce sugars for us to have energy...why not just supplement more light instead??


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## Brizzy (Jan 7, 2013)

Kite High said:


> totally irrelevant analogy as nails and hair do not produce sugars for us to have energy...why not just supplement more light instead??


Who said the amount of light is the problem, the light is being blocked. That's the prob. The leafs are necessary no doubt, but I remove lots of leaves and my bud sites reward me for it.
To each his own, I'm not into Internet scuffles. Do your thing bro


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## legallyflying (Jan 7, 2013)

I may be doing something wrong. My buds have hair, but they don't have any nails? Where are the nails located? I think I see nails right at the axis of the stems. ARe thsoe the nails? Should I trim them?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> I may be doing something wrong. My buds have hair, but they don't have any nails? Where are the nails located? I think I see nails right at the axis of the stems. ARe thsoe the nails? Should I trim them?


The nails are those things you drove into your trunk so they can get mo' iron.


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## kinetic (Jan 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> The nails are those things you drove into your trunk so they can get mo' iron.


Wasn't that in one of those 1970's growing books? lol


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2013)

Could be. Actually folks should file their nails and use the fines in their tanks or pots. Folks say it works better than Brawndo.


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## kinetic (Jan 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Could be. Actually folks should file their nails and use the fines in their tanks or pots. Folks say it works better than Brawndo.


I heard if you scrub the calloused skin off your foot and add it too your soil it speeds the development of the radicle.


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## Kite High (Jan 7, 2013)

Brizzy said:


> Who said the amount of light is the problem, the light is being blocked. That's the prob. The leafs are necessary no doubt, but I remove lots of leaves and my bud sites reward me for it.
> To each his own, I'm not into Internet scuffles. Do your thing bro


not scuffling but to put lighting at different angles and on movers will eliminate the shading as well correct?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 7, 2013)

Kite High said:


> not scuffling but to put lighting at different angles and on movers will eliminate the shading as well correct?


That's true, but a mover in a 3x3 or 4x4 tent is pretty tough.

IMO, even if the lighting issues are all true or false, that really only addresses one possible advantage to defoliating. The other advantage, which IMO is equally important, is air circulation in small spaces. I live near the ocean, and it's already humid. I grow in a small space, so PM can be an issue. Regardless of lighting or photosynthetic production, a moderate leaf prune helps me to get bigger plants in a smaller space without risking poor air circulation. It seems to be working good in the big picture for my situation. In large production spaces it's likely not as beneficial.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 7, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> That's true, but a mover in a 3x3 or 4x4 tent is pretty tough.
> 
> IMO, even if the lighting issues are all true or false, that really only addresses one possible advantage to defoliating. The other advantage, which IMO is equally important, is air circulation in small spaces. I live near the ocean, and it's already humid. I grow in a small space, so PM can be an issue. Regardless of lighting or photosynthetic production, a moderate leaf prune helps me to get bigger plants in a smaller space without risking poor air circulation. It seems to be working good in the big picture for my situation. In large production spaces it's likely not as beneficial.


I have a mover in a 24"x42" closet with a 400 cmh on it for selfing and crosses....two on movers overhead in 5x5 chambers with a cooltubed 400 below the canopy AND A 8 54 W 46" T5'S 2 in each corner minsplit ac and fans along with a dehumid so air circ covered as well...

see below





so no need to remove food factories correct?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 7, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I have a mover in a 24"x42" closet with a 400 cmh on it for selfing and crosses....two on movers overhead in 5x5 chambers with a cooltubed 400 below the canopy AND A 8 54 W 46" T5'S 2 in each corner minsplit ac and fans along with a dehumid so air circ covered as well...
> 
> see below
> 
> ...


Nice setup man. +rep

I have my dehumid outside the tent due to space constraints unfortunately.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 7, 2013)

itsa 5x5x9 with 4 Positronics claustrums in there now. Sealed with titan 3 co2 monitor/controller two fans on the floor blowing up with the dehumid in 10 gallon microkote lined containers of minerally amended promix hp and 50% coarse perilite

ps- not a tent but a double walled flored and ceiling insulated totally sealed structure of wood with 7 coats of interior and 5 exterior coats inside of another building


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## Sir.Ganga (Jan 7, 2013)

Kite High said:


> smells like you're the douche...and your obvious faith in Jorge proves you dont know anything but what you read...Jorge shows off OTHER people's grows and knows how to write and market books


Did you actually read my statement...Obviously NOT! Go ask UB for clarification, maybe between the two of you you can figure it out.

Wannabe#2


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## Kite High (Jan 7, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Did you actually read my statement...Obviously NOT! Go ask UB for clarification, maybe between the two of you you can figure it out.
> 
> Wannabe#2


see above


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 7, 2013)

And I would like to clarify after all the information here and th other threads conclusion is... Leafs : blockers of lights.. Don't believe?



The wood on the floor ain't getting nothing!


----------



## Kite High (Jan 7, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> And I would like to clarify after all the information here and th other threads conclusion is... Leafs : blockers of lights.. Don't believe?
> 
> 
> 
> The wood on the floor ain't getting nothing!


so they are food producers that block light...floor dont need any light does it?


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## elkukupanda (Jan 7, 2013)

Kite High said:


> so they are food producers that block light...floor dont need any light does it?


What??? Man... Sarcasm... To light up the mood.. People are about to inetkill each other here


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## elkukupanda (Jan 7, 2013)

and it's my first grow... i take every opportunity to show my plants.. you guys have like a thousand grows so you know.. new and exciting... old and boring kind of mentality...


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## Kite High (Jan 7, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> What??? Man... Sarcasm... To light up the mood.. People are about to inetkill each other here


wasn't meant to be condescending just factual...looks great dude...props


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Jan 8, 2013)

Kite High said:


>


Your happy with this? Nice _*sticks*_...so much potential in that room, you really need to find different sources for your growing info, but if your happy pulling 3 zips a plant good on ya. I would rather gather info from many sources and with an OPEN MIND, make honest solid decisions that in fact better my out come.

I research and listen to everyones point of view and impliment what I feel is correct and right for my situation, now you tell me who has the better outcome, they say a picture speaks volumes:


I think the pics say quite a bit..don't you? By the way these are pics of single plants. Looks to me that One of my girls puts out half your crop. Well that may be pushing it a little but you get the point.

I think in thailand they sell something called thai-stick...you might have a market there.

You could producs so much more with an open mind and a lot of research but your attitude is what is stopping you.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 8, 2013)

Lol. You're an idiot. That's week 3 flower fool. Usually 10 -16 oz Per plant asshat. Strain dependent of course. I grow for me and have already made my money so no need for a market. Also I do not like indicas and THESE are sativas you punk ass kid that never even smoked good pot. You know tall plants?? So what You want me to use AN too? Sorry not stupid enough for that. But I bet you are.


----------



## Izoc666 (Jan 8, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I have a mover in a 24"x42" closet with a 400 cmh on it for selfing and crosses....two on movers overhead in 5x5 chambers with a cooltubed 400 below the canopy AND A 8 54 W 46" T5'S 2 in each corner minsplit ac and fans along with a dehumid so air circ covered as well...
> 
> see below
> 
> ...


thats monster donkey dicks for three weeks of flowering ! very nice, sir.

this picture will speak for itself, and learn lesson from this talented grower


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't think 95% of this membership would know a real sativa if it bit them in the ass. For starts, there is practically no pure sativa stock available, they're all mutts, and if you can't grow a 5" diameter cola from the typical pollen chunkers then you need to toss the rocket fuels and get back to basics. 

Nice job Kite High.

Tio


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Your happy with this? Nice _*sticks*_...so much potential in that room, you really need to find different sources for your growing info, but if your happy pulling 3 zips a plant good on ya. I would rather gather info from many sources and with an OPEN MIND, make honest solid decisions that in fact better my out come.


Bullshit, no you don't. You can not make "better decisions" from the crap you glean around here. Folks don't even know what's in their bottles much less understand what makes a plant tick. Of course, they got dem charts to follow!  



> I research and listen to everyones point of view and impliment what I feel is correct and right for my situation, now you tell me who has the better outcome, they say a picture speaks volumes


Hearsay rules the ignorant and those drawn to (erroneous) forum popular thought.



> You could producs so much more with an open mind and a lot of research but your attitude is what is stopping you.


Wrong. Common botanical sense is not about attitude. It's about science........ shit-fer-brains.

Uncle Ben


----------



## Kite High (Jan 8, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Your happy with this? Nice _*sticks*_...so much potential in that room, you really need to find different sources for your growing info, but if your happy pulling 3 zips a plant good on ya. I would rather gather info from many sources and with an OPEN MIND, make honest solid decisions that in fact better my out come.
> 
> I research and listen to everyones point of view and impliment what I feel is correct and right for my situation, now you tell me who has the better outcome, they say a picture speaks volumes:
> View attachment 2471211
> ...










you are a real douche...my plants are 3 - 7 foot tall of plant with leaves...you are the short stick grower you fucking ignoramus....UB and I forgot more about growing plants than you will ever know...what a fucking asshat...I tell you what keep on keeping big mike and the gang rich...you deserve that


----------



## Kite High (Jan 8, 2013)

Izoc666 said:


> thats monster donkey dicks for three weeks of flowering ! very nice, sir.
> 
> this picture will speak for itself, and learn lesson from this talented grower


thank you and thats just the top half of the 4 plants


----------



## Izoc666 (Jan 8, 2013)

Kite High said:


> thank you and thats just the top half of the 4 plants


it still looks insane even with top half of the plants. Most sativa will produce low yield unlike indica or hybrid (mutt ?) strain, but you proved that you can achieve by keep N that keep the leaves all way to the harvest without loss of leaves. Thank you for sharing your exprience and i appreciate it


----------



## legallyflying (Jan 8, 2013)

thanks for really making this thread a collection of stupid ass insults.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 8, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> thanks for really making this thread a collection of stupid ass insults.


You're welcome


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 8, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Uncle Ben said:
> 
> 
> > That's true and as long as you understand that and the fact that there is going to be some incorrect information as presented by his plagarized sources and/or skewed by Jorge himself, then it's OK. His Bible is a collection of the huge and now defunct Overgrow members' posts and FAQ's, including mine. Mel Frank is the best source for information, especially for the noob as it's based purely on botany, not hype. 1982 release....and still going strong.
> ...


I got a thank you email from Jorge today for pointing out the error. Hopefully I'll get my free copy with the next revision. Then I can be cool like you too.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 8, 2013)

so.... after i cut my leaves 4 days ago my plants looked naked most told me they were going to die or 






at the very least slow down,in both cases i was wearily ready for either outcome... what DID happen was after an hour my girls were praying again and the very next day began to develop cute lil flowers right on schedule, but what i do notice is that the nodes are really close together as well as more bud sites..

 so i dont know if the extremely quick recovery was because of the heavy 16 but they did just snap right back


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> what DID happen was after an hour my girls were praying again


I'd be praying too if some half crazed kid started hacking at me with a knife.


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## maphisto (Jan 8, 2013)

^^^ lol!!


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## keebo3000 (Jan 8, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd be praying too if some half crazed kid started hacking at me with a knife.


I must be crazy unk because I am having way to much fun with this.....Hack, Hack Hack... here i go again. lol


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## akula (Jan 8, 2013)

Wow. Trolls trolling trolls that are trolling trolls. Krazy.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 8, 2013)

Ok, this is one of the leafs at the very bottom of my plant... It had reached its final size... Compared to the others leafs.. This one was very pale, couple of brown spots, maybe some nutrient burn, (had some fruit fliesl at beginning.. well still have a few that im getting rid of) and so... So I decided to chop it and take a pic.... Looking down about the same height there are 2 more fan leafs like this as well... But wanted to hear what you guys think about it... Before chop chop or maybe not...
note: 1 week into flowering
i'm thinking trims with 24 hours in between at least


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 8, 2013)

akula said:


> Wow. Trolls trolling trolls that are trolling trolls. Krazy.


Trolls landTrolls land


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## elkukupanda (Jan 8, 2013)

When I'm looking at this plant from the side I feel like I'm in the jungle


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## keebo3000 (Jan 8, 2013)

akula said:


> Wow. Trolls trolling trolls that are trolling trolls. Krazy.


um... whats a troll?


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## Kite High (Jan 8, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> um... whats a troll?


sir ganja 4 sure...


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## legallyflying (Jan 9, 2013)

Your just as much a troll kite


----------



## Kite High (Jan 9, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Your just as much a troll kite


fuck off lf...you're an arrogant asshat


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Jan 9, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bullshit, no you don't. You can not make "better decisions" from the crap you glean around here. Folks don't even know what's in their bottles much less understand what makes a plant tick. Of course, they got dem charts to follow!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ill address you first UB. You honestly think my background comes from these sites? More likely your bachground with the type of comments you make. Most of your comments are so full of holes and completely wrong that these sites are the only place you can get anyone to believe your BS. If reasearch and development is erroneous forum popular thought as you say than I guess I am guilty of that but without R/D our whole society suffers and we would still be using horses for our main transportation. Sadly UB its all about attitude, if your attitude is that you know it all (which yours is hands down) then you loose out on real knowledge because your head is so big on yourself that you pass up valuable knowledge. I was there once too UB but I grew up on my 13 birthday...maybe you should take the hint...grow up or shut up.

Now Kite High are you trying to make me believe that in your pic is 3 week old Sativas? First off in 3 weeks most sativa strains barely start budding. If anything maybe just maybe there might be some sativa enetics in there but by the look I doubt that. So you have to LIE about time lines and strains to proove your point! 

10-16 zips a plant...I call bullshit AGAIN! Come on even a newb see's through this statment You pull up a pic of a test tray that I have done and call me a douche! Why... because it shows what technique does or maybe just because your just a little jelous that my statements are proven by my pics and even in my small grows produce quality bud no matter the technique. Thats the difference between us, I do not think I know everything and am willing to impliment and improve techniques to better my system. 

By the way that was an execellent technique for closet and small room growers.

Im sorry you guys's heads are up your asses but since your there check for fertilizer, I hear UB has a technique for that and it doesn't cost you nothin!

You both have been caught throwing bullshit and the lies are so transparent that even a newb reading this should be able to figure it out. 

Im done with you two wannabee's I have shown everyone that reads this what you actually are
Complete Liars with a small skill base and big heads. People come here for help, you two should do the same..

How did you take that pic of yourself...now thats talent!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 9, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Ill address you first UB. You honestly think my background comes from these sites? More likely your bachground with the type of comments you make. Most of your comments are so full of holes and completely wrong that these sites are the only place you can get anyone to believe your BS. If reasearch and development is erroneous forum popular thought as you say than I guess I am guilty of that but without R/D our whole society suffers and we would still be using horses for our main transportation.


I asked you and the other botanical retards to provide us with one bonafide, non partisan study reflecting your theory that yanking off the very unit that produces flowers increases bud bulk...... and you didn't, nor you can you. 

FAIL


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 9, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Ok, this is one of the leafs at the very bottom of my plant... It had reached its final size... Compared to the others leafs.. This one was very pale, couple of brown spots, maybe some nutrient burn, (had some fruit fliesl at beginning.. well still have a few that im getting rid of) and so... So I decided to chop it and take a pic.... Looking down about the same height there are 2 more fan leafs like this as well... But wanted to hear what you guys think about it... Before chop chop or maybe not...
> note: 1 week into flowering
> i'm thinking trims with 24 hours in between at least


Looks like a healthy productive leaf to me. A few necrotic spots doesn't hurt the photosynthetic efficiency. If it got worse, then I would have pulled it. Gonna toot my horn and post a photo of what a plant should look like start to finish. Not saying I always manage, but I usually come pretty damn close with 90% of the fan leaves still green and productive come harvest.



Even this 18" tall Mexican sativa seedling in a super small pot had decent leaves before it hit the compost pile (it was an experiment).


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## chuck estevez (Jan 9, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Ill address you first UB. You honestly think my background comes from these sites? More likely your bachground with the type of comments you make. Most of your comments are so full of holes and completely wrong that these sites are the only place you can get anyone to believe your BS. If reasearch and development is erroneous forum popular thought as you say than I guess I am guilty of that but without R/D our whole society suffers and we would still be using horses for our main transportation. Sadly UB its all about attitude, if your attitude is that you know it all (which yours is hands down) then you loose out on real knowledge because your head is so big on yourself that you pass up valuable knowledge. I was there once too UB but I grew up on my 13 birthday...maybe you should take the hint...grow up or shut up.
> 
> Now Kite High are you trying to make me believe that in your pic is 3 week old Sativas? First off in 3 weeks most sativa strains barely start budding. If anything maybe just maybe there might be some sativa enetics in there but by the look I doubt that. So you have to LIE about time lines and strains to proove your point!
> 
> ...


 you sir, are delusional. I see UB follow EVERY claim with links to professional studies that back up what he says, you spout a bunch of B.S. with nothing but your pics to back it up. for all we know, those plants finish as a bunch of fluffy buds. Buds always look the best right after the chop. 
what a donk you are.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Looks like a healthy productive leaf to me. A few necrotic spots doesn't hurt the photosynthetic efficiency. If it got worse, then I would have pulled it. Gonna toot my horn and post a photo of what a plant should look like start to finish. Not saying I always manage, but I usually come pretty damn close with 90% of the fan leaves still green and productive come harvest.
> 
> View attachment 2472824
> 
> ...


thanks for the reply brother. I'm let them be until they go somewhat yellowish... The thing is like my plants are like a forest so I think the plant is trying to get rid of the ones at the very bottom.. I'm seriously thinking about layering all those leafs down there and raising the soil level even more...what you think?


----------



## infdjedi (Jan 9, 2013)

I have been growing for a couple years now and after reading and experimenting a lot w/ defoliation I have developed a somewhat reasonable opinion on the matter.

I have a botany degree and worked in botanical fields for several years now. I know how plants grow, and more importantly, I know how to manipulate plants for our own selfish human needs which more often than not, are different than a plants own needs. In regards to defoliation as a means to increase bud production, folks need to throw a lot about botany and plant growth characteristics out of the water. The reason being, think about what the entire point of a plants life is: to reproduce. That is, in the case of a female cannabis plant, to become pollinated and produce LOTS and LOTS of SEEDS. That's right, seeds. When a plant becomes pollinated it is safe to assume most of it's energy is diverted to grow and mature the seed. As cannabis growers, we are in fact training the plant to do something it does not want to do, grow massive, unpollinated buds. That is why I feel when people apply normal botanical logic and say cutting off any type of vegetation is bad, they are correct in terms of seed production but not bud production. I wager most of the energy going to buds comes from the sugar leaves and the tiny leaves on the base and apical area of the buds itself, not the large fan leaves. A cannabis plant wasn't designed to produce the quantity of buds we want to see. The plant is happy growing a couple thousand small flowers and having a few hundred pollinated. The plant will eventually sinese and die. What we do, is deprive the plant from pollination so the flowers keep on growing and developing, unfertilized. 

I can't upload pictures, but I have done several side by side comparisons w/ defoliation and no defoliation. Buds that are getting more light are bigger than the ones that get less, period. That is a open and shut case for me. The real question is if more light is getting to the buds because fan leaves are removed, does that negative affect outweigh the positive effect of bud production? From my experiments, no. If you cut fan leaves off, the buds below them will get bigger and mature faster. I've proven that to myself over and over again. Now, will a defoliated plant, once pollinated, produce as many healthy seeds as an un-defoliated plant? Probably not as that is the entire purpose of a plants life and removing leaves should negatively affect that. 

I've seen it both ways really.. growers on here who practice zero defoliation but feed the plant perfectly in a perfect medium with tons of light get great results. I've also seen defoliation create an unbelievable number of dense flowers which would not have been there normally. Using botanical knowledge is great, but we need to think about things a bit differently because we are manipulating the plant that goes against it's natural life cycle. Just my $0.02.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

Last night I was reading about the different sections of a plant, and how each part ( fan leafs ) supply energy and stuff... That's why I was wondering of giving back to the roots what belongs to them


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## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

infdjedi said:


> I have been growing for a couple years now and after reading and experimenting a lot w/ defoliation I have developed a somewhat reasonable opinion on the matter.
> 
> I have a botany degree and worked in botanical fields for several years now. I know how plants grow, and more importantly, I know how to manipulate plants for our own selfish human needs which more often than not, are different than a plants own needs. In regards to defoliation as a means to increase bud production, folks need to throw a lot about botany and plant growth characteristics out of the water. The reason being, think about what the entire point of a plants life is: to reproduce. That is, in the case of a female cannabis plant, to become pollinated and produce LOTS and LOTS of SEEDS. That's right, seeds. When a plant becomes pollinated it is safe to assume most of it's energy is diverted to grow and mature the seed. As cannabis growers, we are in fact training the plant to do something it does not want to do, grow massive, unpollinated buds. That is why I feel when people apply normal botanical logic and say cutting off any type of vegetation is bad, they are correct in terms of seed production but not bud production. I wager most of the energy going to buds comes from the sugar leaves and the tiny leaves on the base and apical area of the buds itself, not the large fan leaves. A cannabis plant wasn't designed to produce the quantity of buds we want to see. The plant is happy growing a couple thousand small flowers and having a few hundred pollinated. The plant will eventually sinese and die. What we do, is deprive the plant from pollination so the flowers keep on growing and developing, unfertilized.
> 
> ...


Hello there sir, thanks for sharing..
really???
ok, but what about getting rid of the toxins? What about the plant putting tons of energy to generate bigger leafs again? And what about the roots?? I mean you got no pics or anything is just hard to believe... I think every grower here plucks a leaf here and there whenever is needed but I haven't seen any defoliation crop yet (except for those trying to sell a book) that outweighs a solid grow... If you could be kind enough to show week by week development and methods it would be great... And we are manipulating the plant to grow healthy and strong... If you need more lights for better results that's your answer.... Get more lights...
Now my question is... What is the point in lying... You introduce yourself as "you have been growing for a couple of years and "after reading" then you have a botanical degree... I wasn't going to say anything and be polite but I'm just tired of idiots who don't value others people time and effort ( and willingness ) to contribute with newbies like me....


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## infdjedi (Jan 9, 2013)

> *
> 
> If you could be kind enough to show week by week development and methods it would be great... And we are manipulating the plant to grow healthy and strong... If you need more lights for better results that's your answer.... Get more lights...
> Now my question is... What is the point in lying... You introduce yourself as "you have been growing for a couple of years and "after reading" then you have a botanical degree... I wasn't going to say anything and be polite but I'm just tired of idiots who don't value others people time and effort ( and willingness ) to contribute with newbies like me....​
> ...


Like I already mentioned, I can't post pics.. think about the reason. There are many others who have posted side by side comparison pics if you look hard enough. I don't understand why you bring up lying or being confrontational in your response. Its an anonymous internet forum, believe me or not I don't give a flying fuck. This is a place to share opinions and information. Take it or leave it dude.

I never said anything about taking ALL the leaves off. You take 3-5 large leaves at the top of the plant that are shading light from reaching the interior.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

My question would be... If fan leafs didn't contribute with buds... As some people claim that the bud sites are "enough"... Then why I haven't seen a single defoliated plant with a massive cola like plants with foliage... You know by empirical data and throwing botany away... Just looks like people is harvesting less.. Smaller cola... And couple grams more on lower shoots.... I mean what's the plant going to do now that's she's been rape and stuff...


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## Kite High (Jan 9, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Ill address you first UB. You honestly think my background comes from these sites? More likely your bachground with the type of comments you make. Most of your comments are so full of holes and completely wrong that these sites are the only place you can get anyone to believe your BS. If reasearch and development is erroneous forum popular thought as you say than I guess I am guilty of that but without R/D our whole society suffers and we would still be using horses for our main transportation. Sadly UB its all about attitude, if your attitude is that you know it all (which yours is hands down) then you loose out on real knowledge because your head is so big on yourself that you pass up valuable knowledge. I was there once too UB but I grew up on my 13 birthday...maybe you should take the hint...grow up or shut up.
> 
> Now Kite High are you trying to make me believe that in your pic is 3 week old Sativas? First off in 3 weeks most sativa strains barely start budding. If anything maybe just maybe there might be some sativa enetics in there but by the look I doubt that. So you have to LIE about time lines and strains to proove your point!
> 
> ...


and to you again you punk. Fuck off. Go suck something and quit wasting my time. Test plants my ass. The best you have shown is maybe a 4 ounce short bush. When you actually grow something I will read your words again. Til then. Like I said FUCK OFF. go cut leaves


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## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

infdjedi said:


> Like I already mentioned, I can't post pics.. think about the reason. There are many others who have posted side by side comparison pics if you look hard enough. I don't understand why you bring up lying or being confrontational in your response. Its an anonymous internet forum, believe me or not I don't give a flying fuck. This is a place to share opinions and information. Take it or leave it dude.
> 
> I never said anything about taking ALL the leaves off. You take 3-5 large leaves at the top of the plant that are shading light from reaching the interior.


3 - 5 leafs? Honestly man??? Now you are backing off like that.... Defoliation doesn't mean that.. Neither that I would concur with doing that... And yes.. Internet... Exactly that's why this topic is still around... But guess what... A lot of newbies like me are reading this... And we want to learn how to grow dope... I'm not trying to being confrontational but you said you read the whole thread right? Why you think I'm waisting my time to type this... Get it?


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## infdjedi (Jan 9, 2013)

Yea I get that your being a cockbag over and over again. Sorry I even posted. Goodluck continuing on being a confrontational newbie, see how far that gets you


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## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

infdjedi said:


> Yea I get that your being a cockbag over and over again. Sorry I even posted. Goodluck continuing on being a confrontational newbie, see how far that gets you


Sorry if I hurt your feelings... See you around.


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## Sunbiz1 (Jan 9, 2013)

Pulled at least 4 or 5 fan leaves off this one, pic is 2 days old:


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 9, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> thanks for the reply brother. I'm let them be until they go somewhat yellowish... The thing is like my plants are like a forest so I think the plant is trying to get rid of the ones at the very bottom.. I'm seriously thinking about layering all those leafs down there and raising the soil level even more...what you think?


I'd venture to say they're probably stressing out because of too much salts. Copper colored necrotic dots between veins is a good indicator as is dessicated, brown/black leaf tips. 

No, don't layer an entire leaf. If you want more root output then cut off the lower petioles near the trunk, let the wounds callous for a day and cover it up with soil. Every node that is covered like that will induce root output, greatly increasing plant vigor because of more water/salts uptake potential.

UB


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## beenthere (Jan 9, 2013)

This thread is fucking hilarious, by the way, did anyone figure out whose dad could beat up whose dad? LOL


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

After the lights turned on, I checked the plant to see how she reacted to loosing that leaf... There was some remarkable growth to the side of the plant... Now today is their 8 day flowering so it might be that as well... Anyways, I'm interested more about the outcome on removing those pale/ beginning of yellow leafs at the bottom than the yield ... so just as a continuation I decided to cut off one of the two remaining leafs that look like this, what you think ?
this one is a little bit more in roughy shape.. And they are located under the first node at the bottom..

veins are looking good.. i think it went completely pale green first... then began yellowing from outside in from the front of the leaf.. after a few cm starts at the back of it... and its like is closing up towards the middle of the leaf..


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## elkukupanda (Jan 9, 2013)

So I don't know... I gave her an extra dose of nutes two days ago but... I didn't check the bottom prior to that.... Now here is a pic of the plant... All the other leaves are in perfect condition.... And the plant is looking happy... This is why Im asking... Maybe since no light is getting down there the plant was discarding the three bottom fan leaves?


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## Kite High (Jan 9, 2013)

beenthere said:


> This thread is fucking hilarious, by the way, did anyone figure out whose dad could beat up whose dad? LOL


welp, my dad's dead so cant kick shit...myself I shoot


----------



## Slab (Jan 10, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> So I don't know... I gave her an extra dose of nutes two days ago but... I didn't check the bottom prior to that.... Now here is a pic of the plant... All the other leaves are in perfect condition.... And the plant is looking happy... This is why Im asking... Maybe since no light is getting down there the plant was discarding the three bottom fan leaves?


transmittance, the process of light passing through the leaf to the next one, and the next and so on. 
yo will want to increase Nitrogen to keep them green.

your plants looks great, they are like ; " do you even lift ,Bro?"

haha.

Did you cut clones> and what strain is that?


----------



## infdjedi (Jan 10, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> After the lights turned on, I checked the plant to see how she reacted to loosing that leaf... There was some remarkable growth to the side of the plant... Now today is their 8 day flowering so it might be that as well... Anyways, I'm interested more about the outcome on removing those pale/ beginning of yellow leafs at the bottom than the yield ... so just as a continuation I decided to cut off one of the two remaining leafs that look like this, what you think ?
> this one is a little bit more in roughy shape.. And they are located under the first node at the bottom..
> 
> veins are looking good.. i think it went completely pale green first... then began yellowing from outside in from the front of the leaf.. after a few cm starts at the back of it... and its like is closing up towards the middle of the leaf..



Feed more N. If you are getting yellowing only on 8 days of 12/12.. they are N deprived at the least. I only start to get yellowing on week 6 or 7.


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## akula (Jan 10, 2013)

infdjedi said:


> I have a botany degree and worked in botanical fields for several years now. I know how plants grow, and more importantly, I know how to manipulate plants for our own selfish human needs which more often than not, are different than a plants own needs. In regards to defoliation as a means to increase bud production, folks need to throw a lot about botany and plant growth characteristics out of the water. The reason being, think about what the entire point of a plants life is: to reproduce. That is, in the case of a female cannabis plant, to become pollinated and produce LOTS and LOTS of SEEDS. That's right, seeds. When a plant becomes pollinated it is safe to assume most of it's energy is diverted to grow and mature the seed. As cannabis growers, we are in fact training the plant to do something it does not want to do, grow massive, unpollinated buds.



I am stumped at how you are here claiming to have a botany degree and then in the next sentence dive into a idea that we are "manipulating" the plant and throwing plants growth characteristics out into the water. I dont know if you wrote it badly or just sort of jumbled in your ideas here. For one growing sensimilla, though it is manipulating the _environment, _it has nothing to do with manipulating the growth characteristics of the cannabis plant. It is perfectly within its natural order to put all its effort into attracting pollen before its death and that effort is to grow large sticky swollen calyxes to achieve that. So we are not exactly training it, just taking advantage of its natural survival process in a controlled environment. Then you go into your case for defoliation with no natural backing that we have with why we grow cannabis sensimilla and how we take advantage of this natural process for our benefit. 

This is actually a very common logical fallacy, but I dont think you actually are aware that you did. I would like for you to expand on your defoliation argument and how it relates to a natural process or tendency of the cannabis plant like your base argument of growing sensimilla. There is nothing outside of the norm when a female cannabis plant fails to attract pollen and swells in a desperate attempt to attract pollen. This is actually very normal. However what process do we have to add credence to defoliation that helps us? Something that backs your argument here is what I am looking for because relating an unnatural process to a perfectly natural process is really not a good argument. For example, if cannabis evolved to grow around grazing animal herds, and it used the animals grazing on its leaves for triggering its reproduction operations, then defoliation could absolutely be equated to your example of sensimilla. Can you expand on anything like this?

**edit: I just re-read this and dont want to come off as calling you a lair or anything. I am just thinking you wrote this without really applying your botany knowledge.


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## infdjedi (Jan 10, 2013)

akula said:


> I am stumped at how you are here claiming to have a botany degree and then in the next sentence dive into a idea that we are "manipulating" the plant and throwing plants growth characteristics out into the water. I dont know if you wrote it badly or just sort of jumbled in your ideas here. For one growing sensimilla, though it is manipulating the _environment, _it has nothing to do with manipulating the growth characteristics of the cannabis plant. It is perfectly within its natural order to put all its effort into attracting pollen before its death and that effort is to grow large sticky swollen calyxes to achieve that. So we are not exactly training it, just taking advantage of its natural survival process in a controlled environment. Then you go into your case for defoliation with no natural backing that we have with why we grow cannabis sensimilla and how we take advantage of this natural process for our benefit.
> 
> This is actually a very common logical fallacy, but I dont think you actually are aware that you did. I would like for you to expand on your defoliation argument and how it relates to a natural process or tendency of the cannabis plant like your base argument of growing sensimilla. There is nothing outside of the norm when a female cannabis plant fails to attract pollen and swells in a desperate attempt to attract pollen. This is actually very normal. However what process do we have to add credence to defoliation that helps us? Something that backs your argument here is what I am looking for because relating an unnatural process to a perfectly natural process is really not a good argument. For example, if cannabis evolved to grow around grazing animal herds, and it used the animals grazing on its leaves for triggering its reproduction operations, then defoliation could absolutely be equated to your example of sensimilla. Can you expand on anything like this?
> 
> **edit: I just re-read this and dont want to come off as calling you a lair or anything. I am just thinking you wrote this without really applying your botany knowledge.



How often are plants not pollinated in their natural environments? Since the entire source of existence is reproduction.. I disagree that unpollinated females are abundant in natural environments. Sure, the wild bee dieoff has caused this problem but it is rare in nature. Sure, endangered species which do not have many males around certainly have more unfertilized females. What we do as cannabis growers is prevent female plants from completing their life cycle. This changes a lot of things w/ in the plant that happen naturally.

Let me ask you this. If an pollinated cannabis plant is putting all of it's energy into flower + resin production, how on earth do you think it will have the energy left to create healthy seeds if it is eventually pollinated? The plant obviously stores energy in reserve in case it does get pollinated. This reserve energy must be generated somewhere, which exact place is up for debate as it requires extensive scientific study. One thing people have agreed upon, is fan leaves are a place for energy storage as well as photosynthetic production. One generally accepted principle is all living things try to evolve as efficiently as possible. Therefore, it is reasoable to assume plants try and reduce the distance energy (food,water,minerals) travels. Based upon this idea, I feel that defoliation (I am not talking total defoliation) is beneficial because the leaves closest to the bud will get more light and more of that energy will be put into the bud. 

I guess my basis for the argument is the cannabis plant does not care how many unpollinated flowers it has, only the number of pollinated flowers. I believe that the leaves closest to the buds produce most of the energy that goes into the buds themselves, whereas larger fan and shade leaves put most of their energy into reserves for seed production. I realize I have no peer reviewed literature or a scientific study to prove this to you.. all I have is my experience which you can take it or leave it. 

I have found that when a number of fan + shade leaves are removed, more light hits the bud sites which grow much larger than they would w/o fan leaves being removed. The negative of removing fan leaves is outweighed by the fact that the bud sites are larger (which is our goal, as humans).


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## elkukupanda (Jan 10, 2013)

thanks for the replies.. i will keep an eye on the leafs... maybe the plant is just discarding the very bottom leaves since they get almost no light and is very bushy... The reason why i think this is... 3 days ago i upped the nutrient dose to 1 1/2 str8 and i use a 20-20-20 fert... so i have my doubts about been a deficiency... u see why i don't want to even feed more? I'm leaning more towards UB thought of excess of salts at the end.... Today she will get just water... So if its n def I will know for sure


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## elkukupanda (Jan 10, 2013)

Slab said:


> transmittance, the process of light passing through the leaf to the next one, and the next and so on.
> yo will want to increase Nitrogen to keep them green.
> 
> your plants looks great, they are like ; " do you even lift ,Bro?"
> ...


Hahaha, yes bro, what's the range of transmittance of 600w hps? 4 feet? Cuz the lights are about 4 and a couple inches... I'm just super curious about this


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## elkukupanda (Jan 10, 2013)

infdjedi said:


> How often are plants not pollinated in their natural environments? Since the entire source of existence is reproduction.. I disagree that unpollinated females are abundant in natural environments. Sure, the wild bee dieoff has caused this problem but it is rare in nature. Sure, endangered species which do not have many males around certainly have more unfertilized females. What we do as cannabis growers is prevent female plants from completing their life cycle. This changes a lot of things w/ in the plant that happen naturally.
> 
> Let me ask you this. If an pollinated cannabis plant is putting all of it's energy into flower + resin production, how on earth do you think it will have the energy left to create healthy seeds if it is eventually pollinated? The plant obviously stores energy in reserve in case it does get pollinated. This reserve energy must be generated somewhere, which exact place is up for debate as it requires extensive scientific study. One thing people have agreed upon, is fan leaves are a place for energy storage as well as photosynthetic production. One generally accepted principle is all living things try to evolve as efficiently as possible. Therefore, it is reasoable to assume plants try and reduce the distance energy (food,water,minerals) travels. Based upon this idea, I feel that defoliation (I am not talking total defoliation) is beneficial because the leaves closest to the bud will get more light and more of that energy will be put into the bud.
> 
> ...


But then that's a lighting problem right? By removing top fan leaves... all its happening is that you are removing deposits of energy which will affect the development of the upper buds... Unless you can prove that even by removing upper fan leafs you still get the same results on the top cola which goes against scientific data to this day... Removing those leaves will causes stress... Stress causes shock to an extend... Shock :waste of energy... U know where i'm getting to? some people just move the leafs are of he way... But people that defoliates claim that now because have more light to lower bud sites you will harvest bigger yields... Now you see a lot of pictures here and then... Where plant look like there's buds everywhere... But none of them even close to a well develop cola... I mean might as well go 12/12 from the get go like member here and get a small plant that receives enough light and buds all over... Why waste the time to develop foliage and roots to get the ultimate colas if you are going to remove what you are trying to get in the first place... I have come to the conclusion that people who defoliates was never able to keep a healthy foliage till harvest... And seems like that's the hard part about growing weed


----------



## Slab (Jan 10, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hahaha, yes bro, what's the range of transmittance of 600w hps? 4 feet? Cuz the lights are about 4 and a couple inches... I'm just super curious about this


I had my outdoors yellow at the bottom, only fed once in 3 months. that's why I mentioned upping the N. 
I feed every third watering, and trippled the amount avail. N. with that regiment I don't think salt build would be an issue.
wth that being said, transmittance will go through plenty of leaf.







what strain is that if you don't mind answering ?

wanted to add I would back those lights off, you get growth spurt and u got burned cola.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm not saying that I support or or don't support the theory one way or the other, however aside from light, there is another theoretical reason to remove older fan leaves which are still green. The theory is that floral inhibitors are stored in the older fan leaves. Actually it's not a theory , it's a fact. The question is, does removing these inhibitor containing leaves outweigh the benefit of their photosynthetic activity? 

Of course there's also the fact, which I've mentioned before, that deleafing does help with air circulation.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 10, 2013)

Slab said:


> I had my outdoors yellow at the bottom, only fed once in 3 months. that's why I mentioned upping the N.
> I feed every third watering, and trippled the amount avail. N. with that regiment I don't think salt build would be an issue.
> wth that being said, transmittance will go through plenty of leaf.
> 
> ...


its white widow by Dutch passion man, yes haha, I'm there every time the lights go on like a creeper 
hmm I think I feed every third watering as well but that time I fed twice in a row.. This plant drinks like a champ so every 3 days I'm watering..... She expanded to the sides a lot tho and drank those nuts really quick but the 3 bottom leaves were affected... I'm assuming cuz they are the ones taking care of the roots or something... So the build up reflected down there... But Ill be watering tonight so that should give her a break.... There is one leaf left so tomorrow will be exciting.


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## joe blow greenthumb (Jan 10, 2013)

I read that you can trim but Never trim a leaf from a bud site's base. That base leaf provides most of the energy for the bud.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 10, 2013)

Slab said:


> I had my outdoors yellow at the bottom, only fed once in 3 months. that's why I mentioned upping the N.
> I feed every third watering, and trippled the amount avail. N. with that regiment I don't think salt build would be an issue.
> wth that being said, transmittance will go through plenty of leaf.
> 
> ...


oh my plant is not 4 feet..They are like 2 something... 4 and few inches is where my lights is at... I can't wait to grow outdoors man.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 10, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Slab said:
> 
> 
> > I had my outdoors yellow at the bottom, only fed once in 3 months. that's why I mentioned upping the N.
> ...


4 feet from the top of the plants? That's way too far man. Maybe you mean 4 feet from the bottom?


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## akula (Jan 10, 2013)

Once again your response is really all over the place with no direct line of thought laying out your position or argument. It is a bit frustrating since your claim as someone that directly works in the field of botany with a degree should be able to lay down a more simple and straight forward position. But I will try and dissect and address your points. 




infdjedi said:


> How often are plants not pollinated in their natural environments? Since the entire source of existence is reproduction.. I disagree that unpollinated females are abundant in natural environments.



What? Who said anything about this being abundant? What I said was that it was part of the natural process of the plant to preserve its survival. It may be extremely rare, or it may be extremely common depending on the contemporaneous local environment. 




infdjedi said:


> Sure, the wild bee dieoff has caused this problem but it is rare in nature. Sure, endangered species which do not have many males around certainly have more unfertilized females.



Again what?? This is what I am talking about. Your claim as having a degree in botany and working directly in the industry and that alone should alleviate you mistaking a global problem (dieing bee population) with a natural process of a plant that strives to reproduce at all cost having to do with its immediate local environment. There are two million and one reasons why a healthy female cannabis plant does not get pollinated in a timely manner (or ever). It happens in all varieties of plant life. How could you even mistake this for a global only problem? Mind boggeling. 






infdjedi said:


> Let me ask you this. If an pollinated cannabis plant is putting all of it's energy into flower + resin production, how on earth do you think it will have the energy left to create healthy seeds if it is eventually pollinated?



Again I shake my head. You actually answer your question in you very next sentence, but simply dismiss it.......why? But anyways I will answer the point I dont think you really understand you even asking....its just thoughts kinda jumbled up. If a cannabis plant finally does get pollinated after that event horizon point or point of no return, the point where it has exhausted all its resources and stores to the point that it couldn't produce viable seeds before it died? What happens then? It dies.... Come on man. Life tries to continue until there is no life left. That is a pretty basic concept. 






infdjedi said:


> The plant obviously stores energy in reserve in case it does get pollinated.



Yep pretty elementary stuff here. 




infdjedi said:


> This reserve energy must be generated somewhere,



WHAT?? Its stored in the plant. You just stated it yourself. But photosynthesis doesn't just stop. WTF?




infdjedi said:


> which exact place is up for debate as it requires extensive scientific study.


 Not it is not. We know exactly how photosynthesis in plants converts light into sugars, stores them, transports them and reconverts them for energy. This is not up for debate at all.....




infdjedi said:


> One thing people have agreed upon, is fan leaves are a place for energy storage as well as photosynthetic production. One generally accepted principle is all living things try to evolve as efficiently as possible. Therefore, it is reasoable to assume plants try and reduce the distance energy (food,water,minerals) travels. Based upon this idea, I feel that defoliation (I am not talking total defoliation) is beneficial because the leaves closest to the bud will get more light and more of that energy will be put into the bud.



I was half way with you here until you jumped from efficiency to defoliation is good. Here is the thing, plants do not actually worry about efficiency as much as priority. The stems, leaves and roots are the main storage centers, yet the flowers (calyxes) are the priority resources. If efficiency was was the goal, then they would also be the primary storage. 


Also since you already admitted that the fan leaves are the primary photosynthesizers, you need to then come up with a mathematical equation that shows how transport of these resources would degrade greater then the loss of energy production with the proportional loss of those producers. Anything else is simply conjecture. And as far as my elementary knowledge of botany goes, there is little to no loss of resources in the priority based transportation system. But common sense in me dictates that it would be much greater then this loss percentage based on main energy producers. But a solid math equation would settle it. 




infdjedi said:


> I have found that when a number of fan + shade leaves are removed, more light hits the bud sites which grow much larger than they would w/o fan leaves being removed. The negative of removing fan leaves is outweighed by the fact that the bud sites are larger (which is our goal, as humans).



Again, math equation or your just spouting hot air. It should be real easy to do. 


I want to really get something here that would prove defoliation as positive, but so far I have seen nothing but conjecture, anecdotal evidence, and a few unrelated studies.


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## akula (Jan 10, 2013)

joe blow greenthumb said:


> I read that you can trim but Never trim a leaf from a bud site's base. That base leaf provides most of the energy for the bud.


This is actually a pretty substantial point. There are fan leaves that are directly connected to base of the calyx clusters.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 10, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> 4 feet from the top of the plants? That's way too far man. Maybe you mean 4 feet from the bottom?


sorry bro I think didn't explain myself clearly.. Lights are about 4 feet and few inches.. And plants are about two feet and some inches.. Almost three feet now... I just go as long as my hand doesn't fell uncomfortable.. I put them as close as possible..


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 10, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > 4 feet from the top of the plants? That's way too far man. Maybe you mean 4 feet from the bottom?
> ...


That doesn't make sense. Your plant is 3 feet tall, plus the pot? Seems to me that the top of the plant would be touching the light. Why don't you just say how far above the top of the plant the light is?


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## elkukupanda (Jan 10, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> That doesn't make sense. Your plant is 3 feet tall, plus the pot? Seems to me that the top of the plant would be touching the light. Why don't you just say how far above the top of the plant the light is?


Lights are about 1 feet over my plants.... I'm just being lazy with measurements, but don't worry... They are as close as possible. Thanks

Misunderstanding began when my mind was trying to link no matter what sickening of leaves due to light defiency

ah fuck it... If u care to know.. Here are the measurements... Pot 15" plant 35" light 46"


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## Slab (Jan 10, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> its white widow by Dutch passion man, yes haha, I'm there every time the lights go on like a creeper
> hmm I think I feed every third watering as well but that time I fed twice in a row.. This plant drinks like a champ so every 3 days I'm watering..... She expanded to the sides a lot tho and drank those nuts really quick but the 3 bottom leaves were affected... I'm assuming cuz they are the ones taking care of the roots or something... So the build up reflected down there... But Ill be watering tonight so that should give her a break.... There is one leaf left so tomorrow will be exciting.


Loved that BlackWid/WhiteWid. ran it back in the day, those brazilian genetics is some gooood medicine.

you get the inclination start up a journal for this run


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 10, 2013)

"I'm so confused".


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 10, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't make sense. Your plant is 3 feet tall, plus the pot? Seems to me that the top of the plant would be touching the light. Why don't you just say how far above the top of the plant the light is?
> ...


What measurements do you get at the top of the plant with your light meter? What kind of reflector?


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> "I'm so confused".


It's OK, it happens to folks when they get to be your age. We still love you, don't worry. If you need a ride to the mall, let me know and I'm happy to pick you up and drop you off


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## elkukupanda (Jan 12, 2013)

Slab said:


> Loved that BlackWid/WhiteWid. ran it back in the day, those brazilian genetics is some gooood medicine.
> 
> you get the inclination start up a journal for this run


that's right bro.. hey i can't wait for this medicine to get ready... next growth i'm document it and now i have a little bit more information so hopefully i can keep all my leaves healthy.. i'm still thinking if go with soil again or try hydro/aero just for the fun of it... btw what you growing at the moment?


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## Slab (Jan 12, 2013)

Chimeras C4 for a few years, got a cut that is ready in 41-43 days. Also in my second week from seed some Strawberry kush.( strawberry cough x Og kush)

both are Thai/afghani crosses. First time with the SK. I grow in a soil/hydro hybrid set up. Gives me the speed of hydro and the density of bio. 

pleased to be running a longer flowering strain to get my weights up. Hard getting that c4 to yield in such a short time. Soon as I tidy up the garden I will start my journal, shoot you the link


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## elkukupanda (Jan 13, 2013)

Alright brother.. I'll be looking forward to it... I want to learn from your set up as well might implement it on my next grow...
I need to expand and have a perpetual veg/flower going on until summer... I just molested my girls... Check out my thread https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/603718-6-weeks-zeed.html


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## keebo3000 (Jan 15, 2013)

Slab said:


> Chimeras C4 for a few years, got a cut that is ready in 41-43 days. Also in my second week from seed some Strawberry kush.( strawberry cough x Og kush)
> 
> both are Thai/afghani crosses. First time with the SK. I grow in a soil/hydro hybrid set up.


 you have got to explain what that is.. sound like the anwser to my prayers


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## Slab (Jan 15, 2013)

soil on top, water only dwc on the bottom.
lava rocks fitler out any debris and or contamination from the soil pot

aaahhhh effervescence.

Uncle Ben is the answer to our prayers, staightens out the learning curve for anyone that asks.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanks for the info i would love a pic.....and UB dosent seem to like me very much...its cool tho. Peace


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## elkukupanda (Jan 15, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> Thanks for the info i would love a pic.....and UB dosent seem to like me very much...its cool tho. Peace


what happened to the little defoliation experiment... how are those plants doing?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 15, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> Thanks for the info i would love a pic.....and UB dosent seem to like me very much...its cool tho. Peace


I have no feelings about you one way or the other. We don't know each other.

I have a problem with folks that don't bother to research what makes a plant tick.

Peace,
UB


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## keebo3000 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thet are doing well... i will post pics inna minute


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## keebo3000 (Jan 15, 2013)

Like u said. You dont know me well enough to make that call. Granted i am new to not only cannabis but also any growing period. Work in progress....but im drinking milk now. And in a few years, who knows? Peace


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## burgertime2010 (Jan 16, 2013)

Leaves power bud formation....this is a fact. I have made the mistake of stripping fan leaves with that same mentality and it is not beneficial at all. Expect slowed growth, reduced yeild,and dissapointment. The way to get penetration and productive plants is to open them up with stakes or netting, the leaves stay and the bud grows.The tendency is to think that deficiency, as it is called, is simply a lack of something and adding more will fix it. The reality is that overdoses lock out other elements and require a different approach than what is intuitive. PH is a large cause of deficiencies not because there isnt enough but the plant cannot utilize it.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 16, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> Granted i am new to not only cannabis but also any growing period. Work in progress....but im drinking milk now.


And I am a commercial niche farmer who has grown about every kind of plant material since the mid 70's including thousands in the field right now. If you want to grow good pot, then start off with indoor plants, a vegetable garden, etc. All that experience and knowledge gained will be transferred over to growing this simple weed. To break my advice down even further, if you grow cannabis exactly like a tomato plant regarding outside influences, you will excel. If you do the typical noob drills including using cannabis specific bloom foods and rocket fuels.....you will fail. If I had a nickel for every noob that has never grown any kind of plant before cannabis, I'd be a rich man. These are the types that folks like Advanced Shyster prey on. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 16, 2013)

Also, a clear sign of an inexperienced noob is one that is hell bent on yanking off leaves and doing stupid stuff like flushing. Where in the hell people come up with such crazy stuff is beyond me.

UB


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Also, a clear sign of an inexperienced noob is one that is hell bent on yanking off leaves and doing stupid stuff like flushing. Where in the hell people come up with such crazy stuff is beyond me.
> 
> UB


True that. I remember my brother pulling off all the shade leaves three weeks into flowering. He heard it from some old hippy dude. I warned him what would happen but he didn't listen. His buds never got any bigger. He ended up with the scrawniest little buds ever, and it was a fat producing indica strain. Stupid stupid. What are people thinking when they do stupid shit like this.

I remember what he said afterwards. "I'll never do that again!"

If you want your buds to stop forming, pull off the shade leaves. If you want fat buds, leave them on. It's simple.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 16, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Uncle Ben said:
> 
> 
> > Also, a clear sign of an inexperienced noob is one that is hell bent on yanking off leaves and doing stupid stuff like flushing. Where in the hell people come up with such crazy stuff is beyond me.
> ...


Hmm. I wonder why the buds this run that I defoiled @ 14 and 42 days into 12/12 are bigger and more developed than the same clone last run. Seems kinda crazy.


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## ogreb (Jan 16, 2013)

Starting 3 weeks to harvest I start defoliating.

Read that leaves actually inhibit bud production.

By the time I harvest only a few fan leaves and sugar leaf remain. I slow flush...fade.

I've grown both ways and defoliating produces better smoke.


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## Slab (Jan 16, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Hmm. I wonder why the buds this run that I defoiled @ 14 and 42 days into 12/12 are bigger and more developed than the same clone last run. Seems kinda crazy.


ambient co2? cooler outdoor temps? moon phases? If you are just now maxing genetic potential, what were you doing wrong before? 

you are saying that you are improving only because you changed a Minor technique? you come here to start shit, maybe your plants just happy to not to have you around lol


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 16, 2013)

Slab said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm. I wonder why the buds this run that I defoiled @ 14 and 42 days into 12/12 are bigger and more developed than the same clone last run. Seems kinda crazy.
> ...


who came here to start shit? Take a look in the mirror my friend. I've done several runs with this same cutting, so differences are easy to gauge. The improvement isn't massive, but bit sure isn't dismal as yourself and others have described. The real question is what else did your buddy fuck up with his bad experience defoil grow?


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## BLOCKER (Jan 16, 2013)

So are Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers?


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## Slab (Jan 16, 2013)

I am not at the trial and error stage. you want to discuss those environmental factors I brought up great. Other than that this has wasted to much life hours.

i hit home runs, I don't care how many feet they travel.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 16, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> what happened to the little defoliation experiment... how are those plants doing?


 my babies are doing quite well, thanks for asking... quit frosty middle of third week tight nodes.... so..... what do you think?


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 16, 2013)

Slab said:


> I am not at the trial and error stage. you want to discuss those environmental factors I brought up great. Other than that this has wasted to much life hours.


 Why do you keep posting in this thread then? 

I really think you're missing the point anyway. I'm really not saying that I'm getting extra some super massive yield based on defoliating. What I'm saying it that it hasn't hurt my crop and given me the tiny buds you've described. I'm getting better air circulation to my crop with defoliating, and yield doesn't seem to be suffering at all.

Then again, there's still more time to harvest, so maybe they'll shrink up instead of swelling..


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## Slab (Jan 16, 2013)

You're doing it again. 




.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 16, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> my babies are doing quite well, thanks for asking... quit frosty middle of third week tight nodes....View attachment 2482984View attachment 2482985View attachment 2482986View attachment 2482987View attachment 2482988 so..... what do you think?


I don't know what to say to be honest man... they grew some of their leaves back... they are looking like healthy plants lol... with less leaves of course... keep posting man... i want to know if they are able to develop big colas after that shave...


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## ogreb (Jan 16, 2013)

There is a very good evidence of the power of defoliation at http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial

Very convincing..

He does way more then I do.

I'm pruning for sure again tomorrow.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2013)

ogreb said:


> There is a very good evidence of the power of defoliation at http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial
> 
> Very convincing..


It's not valid nor credible. The only thing "convincing" is the confirmation of it being another misguided pot site, not a university study.

You try plucking leaves off my peach, pecan trees, pomegranates and tomato plants (cannabis aside) and you'll be met by one angry farmer with a baseball bat. 

UB


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## giantsfan24 (Jan 17, 2013)

I came across this article in High Times online I thought might be helpful to some..not to others obviously. Enjoy!

Click here

I prune just as he says in the article. Not all leaves go contrary to the belief of some.

Namaste

This is day 35 of flower on plants that have been stripped of fan leaves twice. The sugar leaves have been left to do their jobs. (whatever that may be  )


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## akula (Jan 17, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> To break my advice down even further, if you grow cannabis exactly like a tomato plant regarding outside influences, you will excel.
> 
> UB



I grow my tomatoes like I grow my cannabis in the same room and everything....does that count?


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## akula (Jan 17, 2013)

ogreb said:


> There is a very good evidence of the power of defoliation at http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial
> 
> Very convincing..
> 
> ...


Grow Weed Easy is a newb site. Dont take the information there with anymore credence then any post you see here.


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## Xub420 (Jan 17, 2013)

I cut off a few paleish curling fans yesterday, and then asked this question after....noooob-move?


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## keebo3000 (Jan 17, 2013)

"ignorance is bliss"


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## Slab (Jan 17, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> "ignorance is bliss"



Have you realized that you shit the bed this run, Youngblood ? If you let us we can get you to the mountain top.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 17, 2013)

unsubbed....


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## Slab (Jan 17, 2013)

Xub420 said:


> I cut off a few paleish curling fans yesterday, and then asked this question after....noooob-move?


Not so bad. I was told they can attract pests and alway discard any dead vegetation .Could be underfed,Upping your Nitrogen is something to consider.


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## Xub420 (Jan 17, 2013)

THX SlaB. I was thinking if you cut off a bad leaf, then its problem wont spread. But if the plant has a problem, then , wel thats another problem. But if a leaf has a problem, wouldnt that mean the plant does as a whole. logically i guess?


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## Slab (Jan 18, 2013)

giantsfan24 said:


> View attachment 2483919
> 
> I came across this article in High Times online I thought might be helpful to some..not to others obviously. Enjoy!
> 
> ...


----------



## giantsfan24 (Jan 18, 2013)

Slab said:


> giantsfan24 said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 2483919
> ...


----------



## Slab (Jan 18, 2013)

Well that's why I don't gamble, lol. 

Bio/soil cola density is always heavier than it looks. Must stink to high heaven over there


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## kinetic (Jan 18, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> my babies are doing quite well, thanks for asking... quit frosty middle of third week tight nodes....View attachment 2482984View attachment 2482985View attachment 2482986View attachment 2482987View attachment 2482988 so..... what do you think?


How far along? Bud sites look like mine from 3 weeks after flip(not first sign of pistils) without defloro.


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## HeartlandHank (Jan 18, 2013)

I have made a recent discovery with this OP question...
Energy producers or blockers of light...?

Energy producers for sure...

I was convinced for a long time that they blocked light, and I finally figured out why I was getting low down popcorn and it has nothing to do with penetration of light to the lower buds... It was TOO MANY BUD SITES.

I was doing heavy LST with many strains to fill out the canopy. (Which I have come to find out was not necessary).
The LST and Topping of a plant makes the number of bud sites explode. Many many bud sites.

So this round I took 2 strains that I have been LST'ing for a long long time and I just grew them straight up. (See grow journals in Sig... SSH and NL) I pinched a tiny bit of growth out at wk2 flower. I am growing 4 plants per 600 hps... around week 5 I pulled back the main colas that were xtra tall. Just a little bit, enough to make for a nice level canopy.

ALL of my buds are maturing at the same time, density and color. It was not the lack of light that was making those pale popcorn buds... it was an overwhelming and unnatural number of bud sites.

With this lighter LST, I have 1/4 of the bud sites I once had with Buds on average at least 4 times their size when LST'd.

Even the lowest buds are fat, dark and maturing at the same rate.

It is possible that my recent switch to a high N feed is making for less bud sites as well. not sure. But I do know that what I have here is the way I will continue to grow.

Anyone heard of less P and K making fewer bud sites.? 

All things listed above are just theories... I am not saying the I am 100% correct and you are 100% wrong. I'm always open-minded, never set in my ways... that attitude has done more for my yields than anything else has.. The more book/forum learned stuff I forget the more mason jars I am buying at harvest time.

I'll admit... lollipopping works... yield is not hurt by it... but the thing is that it is completely not necessary... it's fixing a problem that you created. like driving to the tire place, parking your car, and shoving a knife into your tire.

Leave your tires alone and they will do just fine.

::: Excuse my rant... I have had 6 cups of coffee since 6 am. 6 measuring cups... not mugs. haha. :::


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 18, 2013)

The thing is all this stuff is super strain dependent, and even within that genotype specific, and even further phenotype specific. You really can't say that one way or the other is the best. It really depends on the personality of the plant, as well as environmental conditions.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 18, 2013)

kinetic said:


> How far along? Bud sites look like mine from 3 weeks after flip(not first sign of pistils) without defloro.


that was on maybe third day of third week.. and yes that is exactly where they are supposed to look like at that time the only difference so far is that the nodes are much tighter this grow than in previous and the flowers lower on the stalk are also larger


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## kinetic (Jan 18, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> The thing is all this stuff is super strain dependent, and even within that genotype specific, and even further phenotype specific. You really can't say that one way or the other is the best. It really depends on the personality of the plant, as well as environmental conditions.


Just out of curiosity where are you're pics? You're here allot railing against UB but only in text and logic, never any pictoral evidence. I'm not trying to flame, just curious like I said.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 18, 2013)

kinetic said:


> Just out of curiosity where are you're pics? You're here allot railing against UB but only in text and logic, never any pictoral evidence. I'm not trying to flame, just curious like I said.


Is it really that hard for you to look two pages back before saying dumb stuff?

Look> [url]https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/521700-fan-leafs-blockers-light-energy-85.html#post8536467
[/URL]
I've posted lots of pics if you take the time to look.


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## kinetic (Jan 18, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Is it really that hard for you to look two pages back before saying dumb stuff?
> 
> Look> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/521700-fan-leafs-blockers-light-energy-85.html#post8536467
> 
> I've posted lots of pics if you take the time to look.


So you rail on UB for being nasty to people then act the same way. Classy.
Those pics are weak man, not the plant but the overall pic. Lets see what the whole plant looks like. Selective photography doesn't really paint the whole picture does it?


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 18, 2013)

kinetic said:


> So you rail on UB for being nasty to people then act the same way. Classy.
> Those pics are weak man, not the plant but the overall pic. Lets see what the whole plant looks like. Selective photography doesn't really paint the whole picture does it?


I want to be your personal penguin.


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## kinetic (Jan 18, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I want to be your personal penguin.


I want you to be my personal mammoth basil grower.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 18, 2013)

Seriously dude, I've posted whole plant pics. I don't owe you shit. Go ride UB's cock somewhere else. I have only called him on his shit. That's all.


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## kinetic (Jan 18, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Seriously dude, I've posted whole plant pics. I don't owe you shit. Go ride UB's cock somewhere else. I have only called him on his shit. That's all.


I came in trying to be civil that is all. I'm sorry I didn't go through all 1700+ posts of yours. I respect the fact you disagree, I believe in disention. You act like you got a rash though. Take care dude, your colas looks good btw, sorry for asking you a question that seemed valid.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 18, 2013)

kinetic said:


> I came in trying to be civil that is all. I'm sorry I didn't go through all 1700+ posts of yours. I respect the fact you disagree, I believe in disention. You act like you got a rash though. Take care dude, your colas looks good btw, sorry for asking you a question that seemed valid.


Bullshit. You came in looking to pick a fight and I popped you in the nose before you could blink. Now you're getting all pissy and shit. Suck it up and go home you little bitch.

Based on you're recent posts, this little spit of yours here sure doesn't seem out of character for you: https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/613315-bear.html


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## kinetic (Jan 18, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Bullshit. You came in looking to pick a fight and I popped you in the nose before you could blink. Now you're getting all pissy and shit. Suck it up and go home you little bitch.
> 
> Based on you're recent posts, this little spit of yours here sure doesn't seem out of character for you: https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/613315-bear.html


Read what you quoted me saying and your response out loud. Then honeslty answer who's got the attitude here.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 18, 2013)

kinetic said:


> Read what you quoted me saying and your response out loud. Then honeslty answer who's got the attitude here.


Again, I want to be your personal penguin.

..and if you don't know what that means, I'd suggest you figure it the fuck out.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 18, 2013)

These 4 plants seem to be doing pretty good despite partial defoliation at 14 and 42 days after 12/12 flip.

The one in the rear left is yellowing a bit earlier than I'd like. It's a tester of Veg+Bloom only vs my standard nute regimen.













I'm not saying that my buds got huger from leaf removal, but they didn't get any smaller than those from the same cut in the past either. Air circulation is much improved without all those leaves in the way too.


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## jpill (Jan 18, 2013)

blahhhhhhhh


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## HeartlandHank (Jan 19, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> The thing is all this stuff is super strain dependent, and even within that genotype specific, and even further phenotype specific. You really can't say that one way or the other is the best. It really depends on the personality of the plant, as well as environmental conditions.


Totally... genetics, grower, setup... all make for different plant growth and needs... there is a million ways to grow this plant.
I saw your pic with the V&B test plant... I could see those plants benefiting from some air flow. Although, picking leaves out is not the only way to achieve airflow...

I hear people give their reasoning why defoliating is not harmful in their situation... I did the same thing. But with my genetics, my space, etc, I have seen my best yields since no longer defoliating and minimal training.

I still pick out lower growth (minimal lollipop) so i can hand water each plan with ease... I pull off the leaves and buds that would be otherwise splashed with nutrient solution. In some peoples garden, that wouldn't be a problem... but it is in mine.

I'm no UB clone. But one by one, I find myself adopting his methods and yielding more every time. Some of his clones running around here are an extreme displeasure to come in contact with though. That is for sure. I get tired of seeing people copy and paste his words and calling others retards. Fucking lame..


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## keebo3000 (Jan 19, 2013)

Slab said:


> Have you realized that you shit the bed this run, Youngblood ? If you let us we can get you to the mountain top.


what on earth makes you think that? my ladies are doing fine.


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## sheik yerbouti (Jan 19, 2013)

Did a quick side by side the other week defoliation test on plants I had just switched into flower. This is far from scientific but has showed some results. 






Defoiled plant is on the left, I removed all large fan leaves except for the leaves at the peak of each branch. Its hard to tell as the darn light is in the way but the plant on the right is a little smaller.






Again the defoiled plant is a little taller than the plant beside it on the left. Plz ignore my ghetto temp gauge hanging by tuck tape. Use that stuff for everything, like a growers Red Green (Canadian Joke)






A week and a half later. Now notice that the defoiled plant is lush and green again with plenty of fan leaves. The plants on either side or now a few inches taller than the defoiled plant.

This leads me to believe that the plant that was defoiled used its energy to produce new fans rather than upward growth. The internodes are now tighter on the defoiled plant as well. Kinda obvious result and makes sense. Now its up to the grower to decide whether they can use this to increase yields. For my situation with vertical lighting and a shorter Indica dominant plant it probably didn't help at all as these plants don't stretch much anyway and getting more height in this case would be beneficial to take advantage of the vertical lighting.

However for someone with limited height and/or plants that stretch a lot defoliating could be used to control height and decrease internodal distance. The shorter the internodes the more bud sites you have the more bud you have in the end. Again not a scientific thing just an observation and an opinion by me done with a quick test.

I will be defoliating again after stretch and will be leaving a few untouched to see the results of that.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 19, 2013)

Thanks for the real world info bro. +rep


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 19, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> what on earth makes you think that? my ladies are doing fine.


It helps others to validate their own decisions by insulting people like you and me who are willing to try different things in an effort to see real world results for ourselves.


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## HeartlandHank (Jan 20, 2013)

Nice... +Rep for sharing some side by side work.



sheik yerbouti said:


> This leads me to believe that the plant that was defoiled used its energy to produce new fans rather than upward growth. The internodes are now tighter on the defoiled plant as well. Kinda obvious result and makes sense.


Interesting find. I have noticed what I thought at the time was less horizontal and vertical growth, but I am not sure if number of bud sites or node length was changed. The last plant that I heavily defoliated was a Sweet Pink Grapefruit leaning plant from Chimera... Blueberry x Grapefruit. It was not a very high yielding plant... I would have to try it out again and watch for that.


sheik yerbouti said:


> The shorter the internodes the more bud sites you have the more bud you have in the end. Again not a scientific thing just an observation and an opinion by me done with a quick test.


Have you found more bud sites equates to larger yields with your genetics or is that something you are assuming? I have found yields to be the same. My higher yielding plants at 4 plants per 600hps produce about 4 oz... whether the plant has 112 1gram buds or 48 4gram buds... unchanged. Density, bud size and bag appeal however are much much more consistent throughout the plant with fewer but larger buds, or less bud sites.

I'm finding my plants sort of have a limit on weight they will produce... optimal or less optimal conditions can +/- yield, but getting those extra oz's comes down to branching and spacing as efficiently as possible. Some genetics do it themselves (my green crack) some need a little more help (my NLights).

When container size, diet, health, environment are optimal it then becomes about spacing and branching. I'm finding that when the plant is not trained (mild, moderate or mutilation) my bud sites are far fewer, buds are larger, spacing is more efficient. 

The best part about the low number of bud sites/larger buds is that there is no popcorn. I used to make hash and butter with the popcorn but now literally every bud can hang in a top shelf jar without looking out of place.

We have 2 totally different grows though...
I'm thinking with short plants and vertical bulbs you are not having as much popcorn growth as most horizontal bulb growers.

Just like you said about your findings... mine are far from controlled experiments.


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## HeartlandHank (Jan 20, 2013)

I've heard people refer to plant "training" as _trying to think for the plant. _
After you have adequate everything, yield comes down to productivity with your space.. grams/m2 sort of thing...
Plants have an excellent ability to fill space (assuming adequate growing conditions).
Tricking a plant into being more productive than it knows how to be is quite the trick... these days, I'm not convinced that many people are truly improving yield by thinking for the plant. 

There are serious exceptions to the rule in horticulture... Imagine what shitty apples we would grab at the grocery store if we were not _thinking for the plant _by utilizing grafting.
Then there are the more far reaching arguments with some... like preventing pollination of cannabis. You could go out there and say that ALL female populations of cannabis during the flower period is in a way _thinking for the plant_.

I think that with artificial lighting the plant needs a little trickery to efficiently branch,.. i've been using mild lst... tomato cages, twist ties and an eye for developing a canopy with some gentle assistance.
I think the need for that trick is actually the need to correct an aspect of our gardens that are not optimal... which is intense lighting coming from a dense light source rather than the thorough, multiple angled and spread light that comes from the sun and its movement throughout the day... a light mover could correct this problem in some gardens too though.

... Fuck, I'm just rambling... the tester buds for Killing Fields are churning thoughts in my head. Some of the above might be hard to follow. Haha.


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## sheik yerbouti (Jan 21, 2013)

> Interesting find. I have noticed what I thought at the time was less horizontal and vertical growth, but I am not sure if number of bud sites or node length was changed. The last plant that I heavily defoliated was a Sweet Pink Grapefruit leaning plant from Chimera... Blueberry x Grapefruit. It was not a very high yielding plant... I would have to try it out again and watch for that.


I'm pretty confident that with this strain the plants that were not defoliated have a longer distance between nodes then the defoiled plant, again though with this strain it prob won't make a difference, however with a strain that does stretch and you want to control that because of height limitations or you just want tighter nugs this could help. Not really a way to get bigger yields just a way to help control your grow.



> Have you found more bud sites equates to larger yields with your genetics or is that something you are assuming? I have found yields to be the same. My higher yielding plants at 4 plants per 600hps produce about 4 oz... whether the plant has 112 1gram buds or 48 4gram buds... unchanged. Density, bud size and bag appeal however are much much more consistent throughout the plant with fewer but larger buds, or less bud sites.
> 
> I'm finding my plants sort of have a limit on weight they will produce... optimal or less optimal conditions can +/- yield, but getting those extra oz's comes down to branching and spacing as efficiently as possible. Some genetics do it themselves (my green crack) some need a little more help (my NLights).
> 
> ...


Really glad you posted your finding on this topic, I am only talking theory and opinion when it comes to shortening internodal distance to increase yields. I'm always experimenting to finds ways to make my grow better but haven't yet taken a full grow from beginning to end and weighed the difference. I have always wondered the same thing about creating more internodes or branches/tops on a plant with relation to overall yield. Interesting that you say your plants always get the same weight no matter what kind of topping of training you do you just can control the quality of the nugs. Basically your plant only has x amount of energy to for flowering and its going to go to whatever sites there are whether is 4 big nugs or 15 smaller nugs. Something I have always wondered for sure. All the fimming topping and training we do is more about filling the space appropriately so to maximize the potential for harvest by utilizing your space efficiently but the actual amount of bud sites on a plant doesn't make a difference in yield. Makes sense for sure. 

If you do have a limited height though, as long as defoliating doesn't slow root growth as well, if you can slow the vertical growth you will have a more mature plant with a larger root mass therefor the plants will have larger amount of energy to give to flowering. 

Interesting stuff, one thing I have noticed in the past without a doubt is defoliating after stretch allows light to penetrate the canopy and thickens the lower buds.

Good stuff Hank, really glad you posted your findings


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## HeartlandHank (Jan 21, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> I'm pretty confident that with this strain the plants that were not defoliated have a longer distance between nodes then the defoiled plant


I'm glad you posted that... I've considered keeping small plants in the corners and border of the grow... elevated on a shelf that sits maybe 12-18 inches below the height of the bulb.
If i go through with that I'll need some height/node space control tricks. I'll have to try it out.


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## ArCaned (Jan 22, 2013)

I remain unconvinced as to the advantages of defoliation.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 22, 2013)

about to cut the leaves again... here is a brief update on my defoliated ladies


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## keebo3000 (Jan 22, 2013)

ArCaned said:


> I remain unconvinced as to the advantages of defoliation.


in this thing of ours, there aren't any studys done on it publicized so they only way to be "convinced" one way or the other is to experiment yourself, any thing else is just listening to a debate between people who have defoliated and love it, and people who have never done it tell you how stupid it is( stupid right?)


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## RCgrowerman (Jan 22, 2013)

I grow Mazar Kush which is a 100% indica and I can tell you from my perpetual setup that I ran into popcorn nug problems due to the insane amount of fan leaves this breed likes to throw out. For a few harvests I did not defoliate until one plant just pissed me off enough with the amount of popcorn. Since then I have defoliated and started lolly popping every single plant and have seen an increase in density to the lower nodes.


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## Uncle Pirate (Jan 22, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> Did a quick side by side the other week defoliation test on plants I had just switched into flower. This is far from scientific but has showed some results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are those different strains? The plant on the right looks to be thicker stemmed with less side branching.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 22, 2013)

RCgrowerman said:


> I grow Mazar Kush which is a 100% indica and I can tell you from my perpetual setup that I ran into popcorn nug problems due to the insane amount of fan leaves this breed likes to throw out. For a few harvests I did not defoliate until one plant just pissed me off enough with the amount of popcorn. Since then I have defoliated and started lolly popping every single plant and have seen an increase in density to the lower nodes.


Case and point.


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## sheik yerbouti (Jan 22, 2013)

RCgrowerman said:


> I grow Mazar Kush which is a 100% indica and I can tell you from my perpetual setup that I ran into popcorn nug problems due to the insane amount of fan leaves this breed likes to throw out. For a few harvests I did not defoliate until one plant just pissed me off enough with the amount of popcorn. Since then I have defoliated and started lolly popping every single plant and have seen an increase in density to the lower nodes.


Did the exact same thing, had a SOG grow with a heavy indica hash plant, after defoliating the popcorn buds that didn't receive light before were usuable nice nugs.



Uncle Pirate said:


> Are those different strains? The plant on the right looks to be thicker stemmed with less side branching.


Ya def same strain, just didn't grown identical


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## joe blow greenthumb (Jan 22, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> Case and point.


Misleading......lolipopping cuts off the lowest buds so that is misleading compared to defoliating. Not only that, but others here are saying after lollipop, defoliating etc that the lowest buds grew. Well,.they were getting older so that's misleading as well. If a leaf isn't attached to a bud site then it can be cut without worries. Trim a leaf from a buds base and you're causing the buds to get less because more will be used to repair the site. Think of your skin when you get a cut. It scabs then heals. A plant is the same. I trim nothing above 8-10 nodes at most. Below that point I take the largest leaves that grow from the main stem at each branch. If you do that then the lower buds will push right thru any other leaves in the way.


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## joe blow greenthumb (Jan 22, 2013)

Anyone notice that when you defoliate the leaves grow back quickly? You ever think you're plant does this because it doesn't have enough surface area absorbing the light. Because I've noticed that my leaves don't grow as fast if I don't trim. If you want the lower buds to swell then trim lower buds that appear after 3 weeks, roughly. My lowest buds are swelling with the same speed as the tops and I've only done these things. Never trim feeder leaves. Those are the ones at the base of the bud. Those are the largest which means they absorb the most light.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 22, 2013)

joe blow greenthumb said:


> Anyone notice that when you defoliate the leaves grow back quickly?.


 I have noticed this... which is why when i remove the leaves tomite im going to not fully remove fan leaves just a large portion of the large fan blades and still leave a reall small portion of the leaf to see if that imediate grow back of leaves can be avoided.....just a theory im going t put in motion tonite.


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## Dank Raptor (Jan 22, 2013)

Heres my opinion. An alive fan leaf is a producer of energy and a dead one is a blocker of light. However I know it is not that simple and with certain setups or strains it may be better to remove fan leaves for better light penetration/airflow.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 22, 2013)

Dank Raptor said:


> Heres my opinion. An alive fan leaf is a producer of energy and a dead one is a blocker of light. However I know it is not that simple and with certain setups or strains it may be better to remove fan leaves for better light penetration/airflow.


Never have I ever seen an oxymoron with as much girth hahaha! Love this thread! And am anxious to see where it takes me!


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## keebo3000 (Jan 22, 2013)

here are the ladies after before defoliation [video=youtube_share;mysSIdexdv8]http://youtu.be/mysSIdexdv8[/video]


and here they are after the slice

View attachment 2492732View attachment 2492734View attachment 2492736


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## Dank Raptor (Jan 23, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Never have I ever seen an oxymoron with as much girth hahaha! Love this thread! And am anxious to see where it takes me!


No oxymoron intended. Maybe you misunderstood.


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## ricky6991 (Jan 23, 2013)

Keebo your room looked fine without defoliating i would say...


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## keebo3000 (Jan 23, 2013)

ricky6991 said:


> Keebo your room looked fine without defoliating i would say...


thanks... but that video was after defoliation was done 20 days ago... just experimenting.


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## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 23, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> in this thing of ours, there aren't any studys done on it publicized so they only way to be "convinced" one way or the other is to experiment yourself, any thing else is just listening to a debate between people who have defoliated and love it, and people who have never done it tell you how stupid it is( stupid right?)


Why would anyone defoliate and love it? Do you love small yields? I have seen it done once, the buds stopped filling out, and it was a disaster. 

This is a drooling idiot,'Beavis and Butthead' level grow 'technique.'


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 23, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> keebo3000 said:
> 
> 
> > in this thing of ours, there aren't any studys done on it publicized so they only way to be "convinced" one way or the other is to experiment yourself, any thing else is just listening to a debate between people who have defoliated and love it, and people who have never done it tell you how stupid it is( stupid right?)
> ...


My buds didn't stop filling out. They weren't smaller than when I didn't pull leaves before either.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 23, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Why would anyone defoliate and love it? Do you love small yields? I have seen it done once, the buds stopped filling out, and it was a disaster.
> 
> This is a drooling idiot,'Beavis and Butthead' level grow 'technique.'


 im sure your right, assuming your friend was a drooling idiot (birds of a feather etc,,,etc)
but as im sure you've seen on this thread there are those whom have and continue to do with great success, i know , i know anyone who dosent agree with is an idiot right? here is a medical grower who defoliates... look closely... well past all his thriving plants to see drool.. it's gotta be there [video=youtube_share;alRSi2BwUT8]http://youtu.be/alRSi2BwUT8[/video]

there is nothing wrong with not knowing and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to find out for yourself, there, however is something wrong with insulting those that do want to find out for themselves. "ignorance is bliss" so i guess i don't have to tell you to have a good day. my bet is you always have them


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 23, 2013)

Got a couple seedlings as well as a bigens running right now, and inspired by some of the things I've read mad seen here,
i made some cuts...
Cant really call it defoliating because I don't have enough foliage....
But I chopped off all the fans leaves on one side of my seedlings, so that I could tie it parallel to the ground.
I'm anxious to see if the plants respond how I expect them to.

I expect everything to grow up within a day or two, which I'm sure it will..
what I'm waiting to see is how the remaining leaves respond, and whether or not if it'll stunt the growth briefly....
I've got 4 other seedlings that I didn't touch, and a couple before pics..

Edit...Defoliated my White Widow also. I'm 10 days into 12/12. Worked the bottom half and didn't keep anything for clones

Now for an observation period.

Funny thing is....I think fan leaves are light blockers and energy producers..
I don't think one or the other cuts it...pun intended ha

It's just up to us to experiment and create our own art.

ohhh yeah an I got your oxymoron guy! Just found it to be "quotable" lol


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 23, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> im sure your right, assuming your friend was a drooling idiot (birds of a feather etc,,,etc)
> but as im sure you've seen on this thread there are those whom have and continue to do with great success, i know , i know anyone who dosent agree with is an idiot right? here is a medical grower who defoliates... look closely... well past all his thriving plants to see drool.. it's gotta be there [video=youtube_share;alRSi2BwUT8]http://youtu.be/alRSi2BwUT8[/video]
> 
> there is nothing wrong with not knowing and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to find out for yourself, there, however is something wrong with insulting those that do want to find out for themselves. "ignorance is bliss" so i guess i don't have to tell you to have a good day. my bet is you always have them



Knowledge is power. #TrueLife


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## hexthat (Jan 23, 2013)

I still won't do it till I'm flushing

I could careless about other people's weed, never had anyone ever tell my my weed isn't good or great.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 23, 2013)

hexthat said:


> I still won't do it till I'm flushing
> 
> I could careless about other people's weed, never had anyone ever tell my my weed isn't good or great.


ummm..... thanks for sharing... I guess.


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## SkateTilDawn (Jan 24, 2013)

vh13 said:


> Keep the leaves.


HAHAHHAHAHAH Nice Signature! HAHAHAHHAHAH


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> Why would anyone defoliate and love it? Do you love small yields? I have seen it done once, the buds stopped filling out, and it was a disaster.
> 
> This is a drooling idiot,'Beavis and Butthead' level grow 'technique.'


It's typical of noobs that don't understand natural plant processes and always gravitate to gimmicks and lame trickery. Here's what I posted at Riddlem3, an invitation only site consisting of some pretty good growers. One member had just posted a series of photos on some very well grown plants - DanielsGB. This was my response to a member who responded to Daniels with "you make it look so easy."



> It is easy. I think I can speak for Daniels and many of us who treat the plant like you would when growing tomatoes......you grow it naturally. Mother nature will do what needs to be done in her own time. Our job is to provide support.
> 
> UB


If you remove the fan leaves (large solar collectors) early, you've set the plant back.  It will respond by replacing those fan leaves via output from the axil node sites. That is a hormonal response, like topping. Pretty stupid practice, but folks who are just learning and "experimenting"...... need to see what's going on thinking they'll reinvent the wheel. Kinda like the paper towel germination drill - not particularly good for the plant but the impatient grower who's forever hooked on false forum paradigm practices just can't let go long enough to grab a good book on indoor plant culture (and lurk at a gardening forum). 

If you understand the mentality and psychology of the cannabis growing community, especially noobies most who have never grown a plant before, any kind of plant, then it all comes together.

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> but as im sure you've seen on this thread there are those whom have and continue to do with great success, i know , i know anyone who dosent agree with is an idiot right? here is a medical grower who defoliates... look closely... well past all his thriving plants to see drool.. it's gotta be there [video=youtube_share;alRSi2BwUT8]http://youtu.be/alRSi2BwUT8[/video]


A 1,000 flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong.



> there is nothing wrong with not knowing and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to find out for yourself,


Look, some of us "found out" while you was still messin' in your drawers. You kids always think you've found something unique, or, because it's popular it's correct. You name any plant and I bet I've grown it, so, don't start preaching to me about what makes a plant tick. While you're still finding out - I've been there, done that. Ever thought that what you're perceiving as successful just might be the way the plant responded naturally or to other outside forces and not necessarily what it would have been produced if grown naturally using a touch of common botanical sense?

Uncle Ben


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Maybe you should work on your constructive criticism or whatever that is.....
Doesn't matter what you think you know and what you don't.
*There isn't just one way to do anything with this plant*....Which is why growers experiment between plants..

*And how you know bro was shitting in drawers while you were becoming a guru? *
Every day there's something new to be learned...*.You would be a FOOL to stop experimenting..*

*As time passes, survivors evolve...Ppl incapable of change become history as it's re-written.*
Don't matter how many years you been growing, you haven't done and seen everything...There are too many strains and too many variables.

It's cool knowing your shit and all....true.....but you don't know everything....Neither do anyone on this forum.
And no one was personally preaching to you....I know I was preaching to the choir when you stopped by...

But have you...."*Ever thought that what you're perceiving as successful just might be the way the plant responded naturally or to other outside forces and not necessarily what it would have been produced if grown naturally using a touch of common botanical sense?*"

Knowledge IS power. Spread the wealth or fade to black...God is omniscient. Only him


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## keebo3000 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> unsubbed....


just when you thought it was safe to have a conversation with out an old senile, rude person keep spouting off about growing cannabis like tomatoes which by the arent like cannabis in any shape or form . tomatoes produce fruit, cannabis produce flowers, tomatoes are perfect plants meaning have both male and female parts while cannabis is imperfect meaning male OR female. just two examples of how they are VERY different... i learned that poopin my drawers...... opinions are like assholes. asshole.

you are like a rash that is just out of reach, or that herpes thats just wont go away. go away. or stay I like picking on mental midgets.. now im a cyber-bully just like you.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> A 1,000 flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and further more, who would you be inclined to believe a medical grower, or some old dude in a tomato patch? no-brainer.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

heyyy heyyy heyyyy lol! Dudes just a dude...
I wouldn't sweat him if I were you! I'd just keep it movin!
And keep evolving


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## keebo3000 (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> heyyy heyyy heyyyy lol! Dudes just a dude...
> I wouldn't sweat him if I were you! I'd just keep it movin!
> And keep evolving


 this dude has been hounding and caterwauling me over last to months just wanted to give him some of his own medicine.... lol im back to my subdued self...heading back to my couch.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> this dude has been hounding and caterwauling me over last to months just wanted to give him some of his own medicine.... lol im back to my subdued self...heading back to my couch.


Cut him off like fan leaves haha!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Maybe you should work on your constructive criticism or whatever that is.....


...and maybe you should learn what makes a plant tick.

I have yet to see a bonafide study out of you guys. Just a bunch of wannabe bullshit from yet another new crop of noobs who think they've discovered The New World.

You haven't.....

UB


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> ...and maybe you should learn what makes a plant tick.
> 
> I have yet to see a bonafide study out of you guys. Just a bunch of wannabe bullshit from yet another new crop of noobs who think they've discovered The New World.
> 
> ...


Says the "OG" Uncle Ben.....Fuck outta here....


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

Just reminding u ur plant is too big for ur light if ur leaves are shaded end of story


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> Just reminding u ur plant is too big for ur light if ur leaves are shaded end of story



My plants are getting to that point right about now bro. I just rock with obsessive rotation and moving them to try and combat that.
I also know that the leaves beneathe the canopy being shaded will yellow and die off any way, so IMO they should be cut to avoid sapping energy use.
But I'm just a soldier on foot haha no OG status


----------



## kinetic (Jan 24, 2013)

So your leaves are sapping energy!? lol Your mind is so full you cant learn anymore? You may want to look into photosynthesis.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

kinetic said:


> So your leaves are sapping energy!? lol Your mind is so full you cant learn anymore? You may want to look into photosynthesis.


That's exactly what I'm saying. And my mind is far from full. I appreciate your sarcasm tho.
I wish you knew me.
*edit-


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> My plants are getting to that point right about now bro. I just rock with obsessive rotation and moving them to try and combat that.
> I also know that the leaves beneathe the canopy being shaded will yellow and die off any way, so IMO they should be cut to avoid sapping energy use.
> But I'm just a soldier on foot haha no OG status


If you have no light beneath the canopy u need a bigger light and give ur plant space aahhhhh


----------



## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

Light travels through the leaf. Unto the next and so on. It may appear shaded it to us because we have eyes lol

Just repeating it, so as no one gets lead to far a stray .

respecting your elders is non-negotiable, it sucks sometimes. Just part of the rules of masculinity.


----------



## joe blow greenthumb (Jan 24, 2013)

Think of light like a homerun. The leaves are the fans in the stands. When the homerun(light beam) flies to the stands (plant) the fans (leaves) all reach for the ball (light). All fans try to outreach the fan next to them. The leaves do the same. They're not reaching for the light because they're ready to be trimmed. They're reaching to get that light.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Things sure we're a lot more peaceful during the past week when Uncle Ben wasn't around. Dude sure does like to pick fights. Pretty lame imo. 

We all already know how you feel, Uncle Ben. Your rude remarks don't make anyone want to embrace your knowledge with open arms. In fact it's just the opposite. If you want respect you need to show respect. It's quite simple really.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Slab said:


> respecting your elders is non-negotiable, it sucks sometimes. Just part of the rules of masculinity.


There's this old dude in my town that molests children. Do you think I should respect him too? I think he has a phd.


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Maybe you should work on your constructive criticism or whatever that is.....
> Doesn't matter what you think you know and what you don't.
> *There isn't just one way to do anything with this plant*....Which is why growers experiment between plants..
> 
> ...


quoted for truth

knowledge is power


----------



## joe blow greenthumb (Jan 24, 2013)

Geez, just start a thread to argue on or grow up and ignore the other guy!


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

joe blow greenthumb said:


> Geez, just start a thread to argue on or grow up and ignore the other guy!


maybe you should take your own advice? are you contributing anything with your post?

knowledge is power


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> There's this old dude in my town that molests children. Do you think I should respect him too? I think he has a phd.


do you call him dad?













Sorry dude J/K, couldn't resist,lol


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Things sure we're a lot more peaceful during the past week when Uncle Ben wasn't around. Dude sure does like to pick fights. Pretty lame imo.
> 
> We all already know how you feel, Uncle Ben. Your rude remarks don't make anyone want to embrace your knowledge with open arms. In fact it's just the opposite. If you want respect you need to show respect. It's quite simple really.


This coming from a hypocritical nutjob who hijacked one of my threads (he trolls them all), ran up 4 pages of troll posts with his dysfunctional misfit friends...... which induced potroast to close it. The last FOUR pages tell it all. https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-18.html 


Hope that helps,
UB


----------



## joe blow greenthumb (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> maybe you should take your own advice? are you contributing anything with your post?
> 
> knowledge is power


Really? Look above and read. I tried but the ignorant arguing must have made you miss it.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

kinetic said:


> So your leaves are sapping energy!? lol Your mind is so full you cant learn anymore? You may want to look into photosynthesis.


I like how some loosely throw around the word "energy". What in the hell is that? Cosmc energy? "Energy" you get from pyramids, crystals, and the alignment of the stars?

Maybe "horsepower" would be better. Yeah, that's it! My plants have more horsepower because I don't screw around with their engines!

UB


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

joe blow greenthumb said:


> Really? Look above and read. I tried but the ignorant arguing must have made you miss it.


really? ignorant arguing?? show me the ignorant arguing that made me miss it please


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > Things sure we're a lot more peaceful during the past week when Uncle Ben wasn't around. Dude sure does like to pick fights. Pretty lame imo.
> ...


I want to be your personal penguin. Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## joe blow greenthumb (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> really? ignorant arguing?? show me the ignorant arguing that made me miss it please


Sorry but I'm not biting. Have a great day all!


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

joe blow greenthumb said:


> Sorry but I'm not biting. Have a great day all!


yup, just as I thought... next!!


----------



## bde0001 (Jan 24, 2013)

UB, you're gonna be proud of me when you see my baby finished. I used your topping technique. I have 4 main tops. Vegging the shit outta her in a 10 gal pot and will have her and only her under my 400 watt hps come flowering time. I expect to have thick buds.


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

to all the noobs out there, I'm putting this out there just to set the record straight... UB didn't create the topping technique. it's been around forever. UB is just a dude who shared the topping technique on the internet, that is all


knowledge is power


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> UB, you're gonna be proud of me when you see my baby finished. I used your topping technique. I have 4 main tops. Vegging the shit outta her in a 10 gal pot and will have her and only her under my 400 watt hps come flowering time. I expect to have thick buds.


Just don't do anything funny like push bloom foods which always results in loss of leaves. Keep the leaves green and healthy until harvest even if it means giving them a high N food until harvest. I had a really good yield on outdoor plants last year. They got a slow release 18-4-8 with micros from start to finish. I played with a few hits of a bloom food (low N) and they let me know quickly they didn't like it.

Read your plants.

Love your dog. Is that a Skipperke?

Good luck,
UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> to all the noobs out there, I'm putting this out there just to set the record straight... UB didn't create the topping technique. it's been around forever. UB is just a dude who shared the topping technique on the internet, that is all
> 
> knowledge is power


The only thing you set straight is your need to discredit me. 

FAIL 

I created the 4 cola topping method for cannabis described in my pinned thread. Until then everyone was doing one main cola, or 8 little colas by topping too high, SCROG, FIM (Fuck I Missed) and such. I taught my topping technique before current day internet service on a newsgroup called ADPC. I also taught the cloning technique called air layering, a practice unknown and not practiced by cannabis growers. There have been many others.... 

Training methods known as "topping" have been around forever. It takes on many forms depending on the plant material, and no, that's not new. 

UB


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 24, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> UB, you're gonna be proud of me when you see my baby finished. I used your topping technique. I have 4 main tops. Vegging the shit outta her in a 10 gal pot and will have her and only her under my 400 watt hps come flowering time. I expect to have thick buds.


 where can i find the scientific documentation on topping and FIMimg? oh i forgot they came along from experimenting.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

I still experiment. What's your point?


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I like how some loosely throw around the word "energy". What in the hell is that? Cosmc energy? "Energy" you get from pyramids, crystals, and the alignment of the stars?
> 
> Maybe "horsepower" would be better. Yeah, that's it! My plants have more horsepower because I don't screw around with their engines!
> 
> UB



Personally.....This just me....Notice I started this with personally....

*I recognize that my grow is my art.* I don't care if you harvest more or have grown more plants or have a better set up or WHATEVER. *I don't give one....*
*But my grow is my art...Not yours...What I wanna do with my leaves has nothing to do with you.
*
You don't like what I have to say....State why..You wanna argue the other side of my argument...Be my guests...Just do it.
Do so knowing your feelings don't involve me.

What I meant with that statement was I HAD lots of smaller leaves and flower sites under my canopy that I figured wouldn't grow into anything, so I took em out.
I did it so that the plant can focus its energy on the already established flower sites...
*I'm using CFLs and a couple of 150w HPS's.....For my own personal stash...Ain't cash cropping.*
*Based on what I've seen AND READ*, those leaves that aren't getting adequate light due to my setup, or lack thereof, die off.
Those leaves under the canopy that aren't gonna do anything useful for me....They had to go. IMO "they're just sapping enerygy".

Reading in between the lines of what anyone types won't do you any good.
I didn't mean to portray myself tossing around the word energy...Wasn't aware that I did.

BUT if YOUR plants have MORE "horsepower" because you don't screw with their "engines".....
Sounds like you wanna say *FAN LEAVES ARE PRODUCERS and DEFINITELY NOT LIGHT BLOCKERS*.

At this point i'm set on them being a both producers and light blockers so that's that..
And whoever chimed in...I've learned that light passes thru leaves, but not to what degree, so I do what I do..
Again, it is my art. As well as my opinion.

*Are fan leaves producers or light blockers?*
-state what you think and why.


----------



## Thundercat (Jan 24, 2013)

Lol I stumbled across this thread this morning and was reading some of the begining, and it quickly turned into a bitch fest. Now I'm not takeing any sides or even gonna anem names because anyone involved knows it. I'm just saying that this thread should have died or been killed about 80 pages ago, and I can't believe that the same people are here still bitching and fighting about the same stuff. 

Now I have talked to most of you guys over the years, and consider myself a friend of all but the trolls. So considering the love our plants all need, and that the whole marijuana movement needs to embrace, I leave you with this.....Can't we all just smoke a bong. Its not original, but it would make the whole world a better place.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Haha this thread is POPPING! 

*
SO WHAT ARE FAN LEAVES?!*


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I still experiment. What's your point?


no point. but you get really peeved when newbies experiment, when you ran your experiments did you have a lot of naysayers saying nay? do you agree that experience, whether good or bad is the best teacher?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dr. Greenhorn said:
> 
> 
> > to all the noobs out there, I'm putting this out there just to set the record straight... UB didn't create the topping technique. it's been around forever. UB is just a dude who shared the topping technique on the internet, that is all
> ...


I topped my first ganja plant over 20 years ago. There's no way you invented that technique. You're fooling yourself into inventing that technique.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Damn LOL! Now that everyones been irked haha!

How do we feel about fan leaves???? Hahaha

Any opinions??

*haha and it's funny ppl can give there two cents about the "bitch fight" but not about fan leaves and leaves in general...
Thundercat.


----------



## Thundercat (Jan 24, 2013)

really... that caused you an issue?

Well my opinion on fan leaves is that they are producers if they have light getting to them.
That they are storage containers if they do not have light getting to them.
And that they are a waste of energy and space and I usually trim gradually if:
1. They are damaged in almost any way.
2. They are not getting light and are causing and airflow issues, especially in cases of scrogs or cabinet grows.
or
3. They are huge and are shading LOTS of bud sites, given that the plant has plenty of other foliage.

I grow in prolly one of the least natural ways possible. I grow single cola plants in hydro, with stone medium, and chemical nutes. I usually lollipop my girls, but I don't do it all at once, I'll take the bottom 30-40 % of my plants off gradually over a few weeks. Even with my 1000w, I've noticed the differance in how the plants preform, and I get much nicer good dense single colas if I do lollipop. Typically I yeild between 20-30g with each of them, I'm ok with that and the smoke is top notch. I have tried running smaller plants that I have topped, and have gotten similar overall results. When I lollipop I do try to leave as many healthy leaves as possible as long as they are getting light, I just take off the branchs. 

Anyway I guess what I'm getting at is different strokes for different folks. I think one of the biggest differences to look at here is I grow indoor hydro. My plants don't take nutes from the soil, and they shouldn't have to pull them from the storage leaves that aren't getting light. They should have all the possible food they need between the 1kw 14" away and the waterings.

What else would you like input on It seemed like both opinions had been discussed, I suppose mine is somewhere in the middle. I often find that I like the best of both worlds


----------



## GreenThumbSucker (Jan 24, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> im sure your right, assuming your friend was a drooling idiot (birds of a feather etc,,,etc)
> but as im sure you've seen on this thread there are those whom have and continue to do with great success, i know , i know anyone who dosent agree with is an idiot right? here is a medical grower who defoliates... look closely... well past all his thriving plants to see drool.. it's gotta be there [video=youtube_share;alRSi2BwUT8]http://youtu.be/alRSi2BwUT8[/video]
> 
> there is nothing wrong with not knowing and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to find out for yourself, there, however is something wrong with insulting those that do want to find out for themselves. "ignorance is bliss" so i guess i don't have to tell you to have a good day. my bet is you always have them


When you take leaves off you decrease photosynthesis. When you decrease photosynthesis, you decrease carbohydrate production. When you decrease carbohydrate production, you decrease yield. You can't take energy from the plant and increase growth. Energy and growth are not mutually exclusive. Your whole premise is based on Beavis and Butthead ignorance. There are many, many scientific studies that document the relationship between defoliation and the accompanying decreases in yield.

"A study on sunflower (Helianthus annus) demons-trated that defoliation could not affect stem diameter and
plant height, but disk flower diameter, filled grains
percentage, one thousand seed weight, harvesting index
and grain yield affected by the every defoliation treat-
ments. Middle leaves of the stem have most important
role than the other leaves because of greater surface and
active participation in the photosynthesis. 100 percent
defoliation was lead to minimum yield of seeds comp-
ared to control because of decrease in grain weight and
filled grain percent (Abbaspour et al., 2001). *Results of
many studies about effects of defoliation on seed yield of
sunflower showed that increase of defoliation intensity
and defoliation near flowering stage was lead to decrease
in seed yield because of decreasing in the photosynthetic
surface*"

"*Defoliation decreases yield by reduction of plant**photosynthesis, reduced light interception, reduction of stored dry matter caused by leaf area loss and*
*reduction of the filling period* (Hinson et al., 1978; Ingram et al., 1981)."


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:SArSiVd8eesJ:www.cropj.com/sedaghat_4_1_2010_9_15.pdf+defoliation+decreases+yield&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj4eYgXnrOvwxFvf2TvpnHjR3rGjyrafFIppGSnStOWkNpsOhPkuUrwYgZUDRIrMOp-0e8hp7pB0bbUkBKFYRMlXrSat4vTXKwe9aH8ULIFZW5GTiW-OnNf5knNdcuV5GtPu5Y7&sig=AHIEtbTNXfsjKc8RSKyUESuwYVwf8HJwsw

There are endless scientific studies on this subject going back decades. Every scientific study comes to the same conclusion. Decreasing foliage decreases yield.

Decrease the energy going into the plant and you decrease the growth of the plant. It's simple math. 5 - 2 does not equal 6. It equals 4.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Thundercat said:


> really... that caused you an issue?
> 
> Well my opinion on fan leaves is that they are producers if they have light getting to them.
> That they are storage containers if they do not have light getting to them.
> ...


Nada...Nailed it...Appreciate ya


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> keebo3000 said:
> 
> 
> > im sure your right, assuming your friend was a drooling idiot (birds of a feather etc,,,etc)
> ...


Believe it or not, some scientific studies have shown the opposite. Links to those studies have already been posted in this thread.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> *Are fan leaves producers or light blockers?*
> -state what you think and why.


I did. Recommend you read the thread and the Lollipopping one.

UB


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> The only thing you set straight is your need to discredit me.
> 
> FAIL
> 
> ...


you really think you created all this shit? really?? oh my...

never had the innternet till 5 yrs ago. knew all this shit waaay before I even got here. everybody I knew knew this shit, you didn't create it, sorry..... you gonna try and claim the double harvest too???

beware of false images 


knowledge is power


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

GreenThumbSucker said:


> When you take leaves off you decrease photosynthesis. When you decrease photosynthesis, you decrease carbohydrate production. When you decrease carbohydrate production, you decrease yield. You can't take energy from the plant and increase growth. Energy and growth are not mutually exclusive. Your whole premise is based on Beavis and Butthead ignorance. There are many, many scientific studies that document the relationship between defoliation and the accompanying decreases in yield.
> 
> "A study on sunflower (Helianthus annus) demons-trated that defoliation could not affect stem diameter and
> plant height, but disk flower diameter, filled grains
> ...


At least two posters in this thread get it. Like me and Jorge Cervantes say, "this is not hearsay, it's science".

It's plain old common sense, a quality that is lacking in cannabis growing circles.

Regards,
UB


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> Uncle Ben said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing you set straight is your need to discredit me.
> ...


Totally on point. Dudes ego is so inflated I'm amazed he doesn't float off into the sky like a hot air balloon. Needs his ego down a few notches imo. 

I did a double harvest in fall 93/winter 94. Oh wait, my bad it was a triple harvest with a manipulated outdoor photoperiod brought into an enclosed greenhouse with a short reveg. Third harvest came in late January as I recall. Perhaps it was early Feb.


----------



## bde0001 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just don't do anything funny like push bloom foods which always results in loss of leaves. Keep the leaves green and healthy until harvest even if it means giving them a high N food until harvest. I had a really good yield on outdoor plants last year. They got a slow release 18-4-8 with micros from start to finish. I played with a few hits of a bloom food (low N) and they let me know quickly they didn't like it.
> 
> Read your plants.
> 
> ...


Thanks UB. Hes a german shepherd.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dr. Greenhorn said:
> 
> 
> > you really think you created all this shit? really?? oh my...
> ...


Why do you insist on using profanity and direct insults towards other who simply disagree. It's quite childish.


----------



## bde0001 (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> you really think you created all this shit? really?? oh my...
> 
> never had the innternet till 5 yrs ago. knew all this shit waaay before I even got here. everybody I knew knew this shit, you didn't create it, sorry..... you gonna try and claim the double harvest too???
> 
> ...


Yeah I know UB didnt Invent that. But thats the technique he uses and Im pretty sure UB is a older guy who has been growing for a long time. He knows about growing that way.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I did a double harvest in fall 93/winter 94. Oh wait, my bad it was a triple harvest with a manipulated outdoor photoperiod brought into an enclosed greenhouse with a short reveg. Third harvest came in late January as I recall. Perhaps it was early Feb.


What in the hell does that have to do with my technique of training cannabis to 4 main colas? Man, some of you guys are so far out there.......

If you choose to play, keep track on what game we're playing. Sheesh!


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What "shit" are talking about, shit-fer-brains.


thanks for proving my point...  point proven.. 

beware of false images noobs,,... 

knowledge is power

unsubscribed


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> Yeah I know UB didnt Invent that. But thats the technique he uses and Im pretty sure UB is a older guy who has been growing for a long time. He knows about growing that way.


How do you know I didn't invent topping to induce 2 or 4 main colas for cannabis? If you can prove otherwise, go for it. 

Facts before feelings fellas.

UB


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I did a double harvest in fall 93/winter 94. Oh wait, my bad it was a triple harvest with a manipulated outdoor photoperiod brought into an enclosed greenhouse with a short reveg. Third harvest came in late January as I recall. Perhaps it was early Feb.
> ...


Nothing. 

I said in a previous post that I topped over 20 years ago. Then I responded to a different post regarding second harvests. Reading comprehension isn't high on your list of strengths, is it?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Totally on point. Dudes ego is so inflated I'm amazed he doesn't float off into the sky like a hot air balloon. Needs his ego down a few notches imo.
> 
> I did a double harvest in fall 93/winter 94. Oh wait, my bad it was a triple harvest with a manipulated outdoor photoperiod brought into an enclosed greenhouse with a short reveg. Third harvest came in late January as I recall. Perhaps it was early Feb.


YO PJ im going off subject to ask you if you know how to make transition from dwc to soil?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Why do you insist on using profanity and direct insults towards other who simply disagree. It's quite childish.


I will treat you with respect only after you've earned it.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > Totally on point. Dudes ego is so inflated I'm amazed he doesn't float off into the sky like a hot air balloon. Needs his ego down a few notches imo.
> ...


I grow in coco and perlite, and never done dwc.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you insist on using profanity and direct insults towards other who simply disagree. It's quite childish.
> ...


It's not your respect which I seek. What I seek is for you to curb your blatant disrespect for others. Is that really so much to ask?


----------



## bde0001 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> How do you know I didn't invent topping to induce 2 or 4 main colas for cannabis? If you can prove otherwise, go for it.
> 
> Facts before feelings fellas.
> 
> UB



Well I dont know for sure, But taking an educated guess that you didnt because that has been around how long now?(topping). I mean I bet you prolly been growing since the 70's, yes? It's possible you were the first to top a plant on purpose...but I think the chances are unlikly.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> Uncle Ben said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know I didn't invent topping to induce 2 or 4 main colas for cannabis? If you can prove otherwise, go for it.
> ...


I'm pretty sure that UB said he grew his first plant over 15 years ago. I topped my first plant 20 years ago. That's how I know he didn't invent it.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> bde0001 said:
> 
> 
> > Uncle Ben said:
> ...


Oh, also I hadn't read any ganja books when I grew my first plant. I had only taken one horticulture class at the time. Does that mean I actually invented it?


----------



## Kite High (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm pretty sure that UB said he grew his first plant over 15 years ago. I topped my first plant 20 years ago. That's how I know he didn't invent it.


IN NO WAY ATTEMPTING TO ARGUE...

UB has been doing the grow forum internet thing for 15 years and growing much much longer than that ...I will not say how long it is as don't wanna rat his age out...he's an ol fart...lol

And he is credited by many popular as well respected cannaphiles for his topping technique for 4 MAIN COLAS

I know he is abrasive and muleheaded worse than a mule but I have to say that what I have included in my style of growing from him has always worked splendidly for ME...and that is all I can say


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Respect your elders people... UB might not be the most patient person around, however, he is giving his experiences of growing for FREE... Not trying to make you pay for it like any "normal" "nice" hypocrite person.... There is a price to pray and is to listen after a million of oboe including myself ask and state the same stupid shit over and over claiming that we are re creating the wheel again.. Like the old say goes... The young can do but doesn't know how... While the old know how but can't do...


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

You gotta give respect to get it...No matter how old you are.

The arguments was over a while back!

Look at how this thread got ta POPPING!

Who care who created what....And who said they did what when and where....

*Are fan leaves light blockers or producers? I'm still convinced that they're both!*
Doesn't seem to have hurt my White Widow...I'm preparing for a gorgeous yield! I'll post result RIGHT HERE HAHA!

Rock on RIU!


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

You got to be pretty stupid if u don't understand leaves are good and it's ur lack of lighting and training that leaves ur leaves in the shadow


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Don't waste your time, if cutting the leaves make them happy... Let it be... At the end of the day is their plants..


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

knowledge is power...


https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/330111-anybody-want-double-their-yield.html


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Kite High said:


> IN NO WAY ATTEMPTING TO ARGUE...
> 
> UB has been doing the grow forum internet thing for 15 years and growing much much longer than that ...I will not say how long it is as don't wanna rat his age out...he's an ol fart...lol
> 
> ...


I certainly could be mistaken. Perhaps I mis-inferred his statements of "over 15 years". Fair enough. I agree that UB does have some good info, but I don't believe that should outweigh his clear intentional disrespect towards others who simply either disagree or want to experiment for themselves.

My point was that UB did not invent ganja topping. It was done by many folks for years and years. My dad grew in the 70's and I have pics of topped plants from way back then before they even had any ganja books. All UB did was take a basic horticulture principle, apply it to ganja (just as others had already done), and then claimed it's invention.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

For all newbies reading the thread... And want to grow some pot... I'm a newbie too... And if i have learn one thing is.... Do not cut the leaves... Read guides by Uncle Ben and get some books... If you want to try stupid shit after... It's up to you but don't drawn yourself pointlessly from the get go...


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

the choice is yours gang, knowledge is power... either go get it or get left behind. don't take mine or UB's word for it, go out and get hands on knowledge. the best kine


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> For all newbies reading the thread... And want to grow some pot... I'm a newbie too... And if i have learn one thing is.... Do not cut the leaves... Read guides by Uncle Ben and get some books... If you want to try stupid shit after... It's up to you but don't drawn yourself pointlessly from the get go...


I defoliated for the first time ever this past run. My yield didn't suffer. I had better air circulation. I think overall yield was actually better, but won't know for sure until next week..


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

Desert rats top and prune looks like garbage unhealthy as hell plus the first two plants have buds the last topped one has no bud they are at different ages its bullshit and those plants suck


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> Desert rats top and prune looks like garbage unhealthy as hell plus the first two plants have buds the last topped one has no bud they are at different ages its bullshit and those plants suck


then don't do it. the choice is yours. but how can you say it don't work if you haven't tried it?? right now desertrats opinion holds more weight than yours to me, he went out and did it. and I know it works, cause I went out and did it also. learn apply, and decide.... knowledge is power


----------



## Kite High (Jan 24, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> You got to be pretty stupid if u don't understand leaves are good amend it's ur lack of lighting and training that leaves ur leaves in the shadow


I am totally on the bandwagon of put light down there and lose no leaves...but my climate room is designed for it as I love sativas and old plants imo for ME are the high 

try anything you like...compare...what works for you in your garden keep doing ...what doesn't work stop doing

most of all..FUCK WHAT ANYBODY SAYS...listen to the plants they NEVER lie...people do


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## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I defoliated for the first time ever this past run. My yield didn't suffer. I had better air circulation. I think overall yield was actually better, but won't know for sure until next week..


With all respect... Good for you man... But without creating a thread with all the details about the grow and comparing it to someone elses grow... I find that all the skepticals in here will say bay... Cuz defoliation have proven two things... That lower buds get more light but that also the plant re grows fan leafs : waste of energy


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> With all respect... Good for you man... But without creating a thread with all the details about the grow and comparing it to someone elses grow... I find that all the skepticals in here will say bay... Cuz defoliation have proven two things... That lower buds get more light but that also the plant re grows fan leafs : waste of energy


That's all well and good bro. I really have nothing to prove and don't care how others grow. Fact is, I've tried it now and it hasn't caused any yield issues like others have said it does absolutely. I might also point out that most folks who dismiss it have never tried it. Seems odd to me.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm no scientist but i have come to the thought that leaves go yellow because the plant either doesn't store at all or very little of nitrogen... And nitrogen is one of the three basic elements in plant growth... So it must be present in order for anything to happen including flower reproduction... If the leaves are removed... Then the plant will be utilizing this element at a certain time to produce leaves.. It just doesn't add up in my head... Maybe I'm just slow or something...


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> That's all well and good bro. I really have nothing to prove and don't care how others grow. Fact is, I've tried it now and it hasn't caused any yield issues like others have said it does absolutely. I might also point out that most folks who dismiss it have never tried it. Seems odd to me.


People dismissing it is thinking in a different way. It's safe to say that if you jump off a high building onto a solid surface the acceleration or gravitational pull that the earth have upon your body mass will end up killing you... We have seen it happen already....but so there are many other ways of sure death that can be calculated with science... People who don't believe in defoliation without trying it is because there is no scientific data to up port it.. Matter fat I'm pretty sure it goes against basic botany concepts... But I do not... I'm no expert..


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Or maybe I'm being fallacious again..... Happens to me all the time so please let me know... I love being enlighten by other... Saves me time and effort...


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> People dismissing it is thinking in a different way. It's safe to say that if you jump off a high building onto a solid surface the acceleration or gravitational pull that the earth have upon your body mass will end up killing you...


and if he had a parachute on?


knowledge is power


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I'm no scientist but i have come to the thought that leaves go yellow because the plant either doesn't store at all or very little of nitrogen... And nitrogen is one of the three basic elements in plant growth... So it must be present in order for anything to happen including flower reproduction... If the leaves are removed... Then the plant will be utilizing this element at a certain time to produce leaves.. It just doesn't add up in my head... Maybe I'm just slow or something...


*Are you saying there's only one reason that leaves go yellow?* I'm don't wanna have to read in between the line?
*I know they need light to do what they do....When they don't get light they die.
That's what I'm saying.*

*Look at my plants and tell me you see any signs of an N def*...I am talking about my plants right now too, so that would make since for you to do.
When you spot the N def. get back to me about it.

Nitrogen had nothing to do with this...We're talking about photosynthesis here...
Leaves converting light energy to usable energy. It seems it would make sense to me that leaves would die when they don't get enough light.
Those leaves that aren't getting enough light....FOR WHATEVER reason aren't gonna produce for me...That's just how I feel...

And if you make the cuts clean enough..nothing should grow back. This based on what I've learned and observed 
*
#church*


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr. Greenhorn said:


> and if he had a parachute on?
> 
> 
> knowledge is power


Then he "survives"... I was just being silly


----------



## Dr. Greenhorn (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Then he "survives"... I was just being silly


I was just giving you a solution


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > That's all well and good bro. I really have nothing to prove and don't care how others grow. Fact is, I've tried it now and it hasn't caused any yield issues like others have said it does absolutely. I might also point out that most folks who dismiss it have never tried it. Seems odd to me.
> ...


There are studies which contradict your statements. Links to those studies have already been posted in this thread. Buds photosynthesize too; fact. Also please understand that there are different levels of leaf removal. I personally wouldn't support removing all leaves. IMO at some point you get diminishing returns with an over-abundance of fans. There's also optimal times to do the leaf removal. 2 weeks after the 12/12 flip plus 2 weeks before harvest seems to be best.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> For all newbies reading the thread... And want to grow some pot... I'm a newbie too... And if i have learn one thing is.... Do not cut the leaves... Read guides by Uncle Ben and get some books... If you want to try stupid shit after... It's up to you but don't drawn yourself pointlessly from the get go...


*
I got a dozen books on deck*...I bounce around them all over and over again...some of the different screen shot on my thread with more to come AS ALWAYS...
They all say the same things pretty much in different words...
I've looked over UBs thread and will without a doubt cut just above me second node on my next run...
Just some new ishh I wanna try..If and when it produces, props for him enlightening me with a new technique.

I'm a newbie like you haha and I've yet to learn not to cut the leaves! 

But guess what....we're just two gardeners out of how many haha


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I certainly could be mistaken. Perhaps I mis-inferred his statements of "over 15 years". Fair enough. I agree that UB does have some good info, but I don't believe that should outweigh his clear intentional disrespect towards others who simply either disagree or want to experiment for themselves.
> 
> My point was that UB did not invent ganja topping. It was done by many folks for years and years. My dad grew in the 70's and I have pics of topped plants from way back then before they even had any ganja books. All UB did was take a basic horticulture principle, apply it to ganja (just as others had already done), and then claimed it's invention.


Lets just say he documented his findings and owned them.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> *Are you saying there's only one reason that leaves go yellow?* I'm don't wanna have to read in between the line?
> *I know they need light to do what they do....When they don't get light they die.
> That's what I'm saying.*
> 
> ...


No I didn't put yellowing upper/middle/whatever leaves in flowering with no proper nitrogen feeding... Forgot to make a complete and understandable sentence like always... Talking to yourself while typing doesn't get you too far let me tell you that... It was just an example of the importance of the element in plant growth and live... You mean that if you cut fan leaves... The other bud leaves won't get bigger? I don't know... What you think... I'm referring to growth in general...


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> *
> I got a dozen books on deck*...I bounce around them all over and over again...some of the different screen shot on my thread with more to come AS ALWAYS...
> They all say the same things pretty much in different words...
> I've looked over UBs thread and will without a doubt cut just above me second node on my next run...
> ...


You bet man,... Hahaha...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> elkukupanda said:
> 
> 
> > For all newbies reading the thread... And want to grow some pot... I'm a newbie too... And if i have learn one thing is.... Do not cut the leaves... Read guides by Uncle Ben and get some books... If you want to try stupid shit after... It's up to you but don't drawn yourself pointlessly from the get go...
> ...


IMO it's better to cut above the third true node and then remove the growth from the first true node, if you want 4 cola plants. Makes for stronger branching.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I certainly could be mistaken. Perhaps I mis-inferred his statements of "over 15 years". Fair enough. I agree that UB does have some good info, but I don't believe that should outweigh his clear intentional disrespect towards others who simply either disagree or want to experiment for themselves.
> ...


It's true. You know who else did that? Jorge Cervantes, aka George Van Patton.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> No I didn't put yellowing upper/middle/whatever leaves in flowering with no proper nitrogen feeding... Forgot to make a complete and understandable sentence like always... Talking to yourself while typing doesn't get you too far let me tell you that... It was just an example of the importance of the element in plant growth and live... You mean that if you cut fan leaves... The other bud leaves won't get bigger? I don't know... What you think... I'm referring to growth in general...


I'm saying if you cut close enough to the stem when you defoliate, new growth shouldn't occur.
I've read that and witnessed it with my plants.
When you don't make the cut close and clean enough, a day or two later you'll notice a little stub trying to grow back...

I'm not spreak about to top leaves at all...I'm talking about the smaller, lower-inner growth of the plant. 

And I mean that I only cut the fan leaves that were hanging around the bottom of my plant.
If you cut the smaller inner flower sites off clean, they won't come back.
If they're not gonna be producers in the end game.......What makes them useful?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> elkukupanda said:
> 
> 
> > I'm no scientist but i have come to the thought that leaves go yellow because the plant either doesn't store at all or very little of nitrogen... And nitrogen is one of the three basic elements in plant growth... So it must be present in order for anything to happen including flower reproduction... If the leaves are removed... Then the plant will be utilizing this element at a certain time to produce leaves.. It just doesn't add up in my head... Maybe I'm just slow or something...
> ...


I've had fan leaves covering each other. Sometimes I find yellowed spots the same shape as the fan leaf which was covering the leaf under it when I move the top leaf. The top leaf is very very green, so lack of N is not the issue.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> IMO it's better to cut above the third true node and then remove the growth from the first true node, if you want 4 cola plants. Makes for stronger branching.


Nice! I'll get back to it...I didn't throughly read his thread...I looked over it...But after this harvest I'm gonna re-group and go from there.
I'm about 2 months out...I wanted to try for the 4 to 8 dominant colas as well as get my mainlining game right haha


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

This is my very first grow... No pruning done except for one with four "main" colas.... I have a total of maybe 25 upper shoots that range from 3 to 7 nodes within a 3 to 4 inch height.... 3 plants... 600w hps.... White widow Dutch passion... Super cropping... What else.. 22 days flowering... Most are 5 nodes... Some colas are 10 inches but only like 4 or 5... This is what ub created.. No jokes.. I'm a satisfied newbie.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I've had fan leaves covering each other. Sometimes I find yellowed spots the same shape as the fan leaf which was covering the leaf under it when I move the top leaf. The top leaf is very very green, so lack of N is not the issue.


That's EXACTLY what I mean lol...That kinda thing happening with the smaller leaves up under the bush


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> This is my very first grow... No pruning done except for one with four "main" colas.... I have a total of maybe 25 upper shoots that range from 3 to 7 nodes within a 3 to 4 inch height.... 3 plants... 600w hps.... White widow Dutch passion... Super cropping... What else.. 22 days flowering... Most are 5 nodes... Some colas are 10 inches but only like 4 or 5... This is what ub created.. No jokes.. I'm a satisfied newbie.


Looks good bro!
And I feel like you wouldn't be experiencing the same issues that I would given you're pushing 600w.
That bulb should have NO PROBLEM with light penetration of a squat plant.
I keep a couple 150w HPSs about 4-5 inches above my plants, and a gang of CFLs in between those.

I'm about 10 days behind you if you're 22days into flowering


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> This is my very first grow... No pruning done except for one with four "main" colas.... I have a total of maybe 25 upper shoots that range from 3 to 7 nodes within a 3 to 4 inch height.... 3 plants... 600w hps.... White widow Dutch passion... Super cropping... What else.. 22 days flowering... Most are 5 nodes... Some colas are 10 inches but only like 4 or 5... This is what ub created.. No jokes.. I'm a satisfied newbie.


Awesome. It's great to have a good first grow. UB does provide some good info, I'll definitely give him that. Unfortunately he also has a tendency to overstep from time to time.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

HE GOT ONE LEFT BITCH!!!!! Like John McCain hahaha J/k


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> elkukupanda said:
> 
> 
> > This is my very first grow... No pruning done except for one with four "main" colas.... I have a total of maybe 25 upper shoots that range from 3 to 7 nodes within a 3 to 4 inch height.... 3 plants... 600w hps.... White widow Dutch passion... Super cropping... What else.. 22 days flowering... Most are 5 nodes... Some colas are 10 inches but only like 4 or 5... This is what ub created.. No jokes.. I'm a satisfied newbie.
> ...


I dunno I still experience that issue with heavy fan leaves under 600w hps. That guy who says the light "passes through the leaf" is living in a dream world.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Looks good bro!
> And I feel like you wouldn't be experiencing the same issues that I would given you're pushing 600w.
> That bulb should have NO PROBLEM with light penetration of a squat plant.
> I keep a couple 150w HPSs about 4-5 inches above my plants, and a gang of CFLs in between those.
> ...



Hopefully everything ends good.... Let me know how things go for you... What you growing..


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hopefully everything ends good.... Let me know how things go for you... What you growing..


Right there in the sig homie! I'd welcome ANY constructive criticism


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## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

I tuck them a lot in between and under other bud sites.... Bottom buds get light but I super cropped my plants fully at least 6 times so whatever didn't came up to the top... I know that is asking the genetics too much with the amount of light I'm giving them..


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Awesome. It's great to have a good first grow. UB does provide some good info, I'll definitely give him that. Unfortunately he also has a tendency to overstep from time to time.


I have seen very talented people just like ub through out my life... So I just ignore the negative and learn as much as possible


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > Awesome. It's great to have a good first grow. UB does provide some good info, I'll definitely give him that. Unfortunately he also has a tendency to overstep from time to time.
> ...


You right, but sometimes it's hard to take the high road when someone calls you shit fir brains simply because you disagree. Besides he hasn't really taught me anything I didn't already know.


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## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

you cant grow plants that big under a 600w shits for brainses


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> you cant grow plants that big under a 600w shits for brainses


what you talkin' bout pimpin?


----------



## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

We did get played with the 600 watt lamps, I use mine 
for vegging. Fux got the nerve to charge more money for them also.


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## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

Inverse sq rule, waaaaaaait for it


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I dunno I still experience that issue with heavy fan leaves under 600w hps. That guy who says the light "passes through the leaf" is living in a dream world.



willis, this is what i be talking about. plants can only be like a foot tall under a 600. people dont have good lights and they dont lst so they cut their leaves its bafflement


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Do you guys even own a light meter, because obviously you have no idea what your talking about. The fan leaves I was talking about are near the top of the canopy anyway, where there's 7000+ foot candles. The shaded leaf is not even centimeter below, and I can see an obvious shaded leaf shaped yellowed area.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> willis, this is what i be talking about. plants can only be like a foot tall under a 600. people dont have good lights and they dont lst so they cut their leaves its bafflement


Every grower does what he/she does....There ain't just one way....
*And lights passes thru leaves...I don't know to what extent, but you can find that anywhere with a quick search.*
I googled...."Does light pass thru cannabis leaves".
The first thing that popped up is Ed Rosenthal....I think I have 3 of his books. Atleast 2.

http://www.mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

<-Is this not fate for tonight?! I've have SUCH A GOOD DAMN DAY and here we go....
A link from an OG.

*And I can't cosign for plants needing to be a foot tall under a 600w lamp..Not nearly.*Every grower creates their own art.

Peep that link tho...

I didn't come across is before I said anything that I have prior to all this..
But it sure sounds familar


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Do you guys even own a light meter, because obviously you have no idea what your talking about. The fan leaves I was talking about are near the top of the canopy anyway, where there's 7000+ foot candles. The shaded leaf is not even centimeter below, and I can see an obvious shaded leaf shaped yellowed area.


this guy needs to take nitrogen 101 again


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

*And I can't cosign for plants needing to be a foot tall under a 600w lamp..Not nearly.*Every grower creates their own art.
But it sure sounds familar [/QUOTE]

my six hundred shines down through about a foot of vegetation, no more. these are basically small plants. bigger than that, yeah shaded leaves, get a bigger light or grow a smaller plant that fits ur light


----------



## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

The extent of how far the light travels though leafs is my area of study now, I know different colors travel farther than others.

also the amount nitrogen available effects the leaves transmittance ability.

Transmittance zzzzz zzzzzz mmmmm traaaaansmittance ( that's me dreaming)


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> *And I can't cosign for plants needing to be a foot tall under a 600w lamp..Not nearly.*Every grower creates their own art.
> But it sure sounds familar


my six hundred shines down through about a foot of vegetation, no more. these are basically small plants. bigger than that, yeah shaded leaves, get a bigger light or grow a smaller plant that fits ur light[/QUOTE]

Defoliation involves removing some of those larger too, so that you can get some light to those budsites.
And OG says 85% passes thru the leaves...So removing the scraps at the bottom makes since..
Unless you have supplemental lighting there...Then we're talking a diff. ball game..

Just my opinion...Ain't claiming fact 
Maybe I come across something tomorrow that sway my mind. But until then......


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Respect your elders people... UB might not be the most patient person around, however, he is giving his experiences of growing for FREE... Not trying to make you pay for it like any "normal" "nice" hypocrite person.... There is a price to pray and is to listen after a million of oboe including myself ask and state the same stupid shit over and over claiming that we are re creating the wheel again.. Like the old say goes... The young can do but doesn't know how... While the old know how but can't do...


No, patience is not my virtue, I'll admit, especially when folks do not have a grasp on the difference between topping the tip out and topping cannabis to transition it from one to 4 main colas.

Noobs.....there is a difference. LEARN it.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I defoliated for the first time ever this past run.


So after 20 years of growing (by your admission) and the fact that your dad has been growing since the 70's, which makes you a little munchkin, you're just now discovering what?

Posers come and go around these parts.

UB


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Bedebwdebwdeb.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> No, patience is not my virtue, I'll admit, especially when folks do not have a grasp on the difference between topping the tip out and topping cannabis to transition it from one to 4 main colas.
> 
> Noobs.....there is a difference. LEARN it.
> 
> UB


For me, in due time. Unless your "Uncle Bens topping" thread gets deleted, I'll be utilizing the methods that you employ.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Bedebwdebwdeb.


spam lol? this was just a couple posts ago hahahhaha


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I dunno I still experience that issue with heavy fan leaves under 600w hps. That guy who says the light "passes through the leaf" is living in a dream world.


You are wrong again, he is correct. R and FR light transmit through leaf tissue.


----------



## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

This is from green mans page :

200 - 280 nm UVC ultraviolet range which is extremely harmful to plants because it is highly toxic.


280 - 315 nm Includes harmful UVB ultraviolet light which causes plants colors to fade.


315 - 380 nm Range of UVA ultraviolet light which is neither harmful nor beneficial to plant growth.


380 - 400 nm Start of visible light spectrum. Process of chlorophyll absorption begins. UV protected plastics ideally block out any light below this range.


400 - 520 nm This range includes violet, blue, and green bands. Peak absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and a strong influence on photosynthesis. (promotes vegetative growth)


520 - 610 nm This range includes the green, yellow, and orange bands and has less absorption by pigments.


610 - 720 nm This is the red band. Large amount of absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and most significant influence on photosynthesis. (promotes flowering and budding)


720 - 1000 nm There is little absorption by chlorophyll here. Flowering and germination is influenced. At the high end of the band is infrared, which is heat.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> It's true. You know who else did that? Jorge Cervantes, aka George Van Patton.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I defoliated for the first time ever this past run.
> ...


I was born in 1973, so perhaps to an old man I am still a munchkin, but my two kids think I'm god. 

I grew my plant first ganja plant 20 years ago and had several outdoor harvests between then and now. I didn't say I had twenty years of growing ganja now did I? I have taken several college level horticulture classes in that time, but have not grown weed every year. I just started growing indoor in the past couple years, so yes I'm just trying leaf removal now. Doing it for outdoor grows would be somewhat pointless IMO.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > Bedebwdebwdeb.
> ...


Sorry. My cell phone fucked up and reposed something I posted a while back. Using the stupid RIU app, and it doesn't have a delete post option, only edit post.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Sorry. My cell phone fucked up and reposed something I posted a while back. Using the stupid RIU app, and it doesn't have a delete post option, only edit post.


Just blowin' smoke bro


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I dunno I still experience that issue with heavy fan leaves under 600w hps. That guy who says the light "passes through the leaf" is living in a dream world.
> ...


I can't speak for the science behind it, and it is possible I'm incorrect. I can only speak for real world experience on this issue. All I know for sure is that it was clear that a fan leaf on top of another fan leaf definitely caused the leaf on the bottom to be yellow only in the area that top top leaf shaded the bottom one. It even had the serated edge outline. Everything else except that shaded spot was very green. Explain that please.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I can't speak for the science behind it, and it is possible I'm incorrect. I can only speak for real world experience on this issue. All I know for sure is that it was clear that a fan leaf on top of another fan leaf definitely caused the leaf on the bottom to be yellow only in the area that top top leaf shaded the bottom one. It even had the serated edge outline. Everything else except that shaded spot was very green. Explain that please.


The leaves at the top should only be yellow due to an N def...right??


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I can't speak for the science behind it, and it is possible I'm incorrect. I can only speak for real world experience on this issue. All I know for sure is that it was clear that a fan leaf on top of another fan leaf definitely caused the leaf on the bottom to be yellow only in the area that top top leaf shaded the bottom one. It even had the serated edge outline. Everything else except that shaded spot was very green. Explain that please.


You did not use Brawndo correctly and/or overdosed on concentrated Eye of Newt.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I can't speak for the science behind it, and it is possible I'm incorrect. I can only speak for real world experience on this issue. All I know for sure is that it was clear that a fan leaf on top of another fan leaf definitely caused the leaf on the bottom to be yellow only in the area that top top leaf shaded the bottom one. It even had the serated edge outline. Everything else except that shaded spot was very green. Explain that please.
> ...


But of course, why didn't I think of that? Do you think I should use more toe of frog, or maybe add tongue of dog?


----------



## UncleBuck (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You did not use Brawndo correctly and/or overdosed on concentrated Eye of Newt.


easy there, fellow uncle b.

i have noticed before that a leaf on top of another leaf can cause that very localized discoloration, and i am very careful to measure my brawndo and do the correct sequence of moondances.

surely an expert like you can explain this one simply.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

UncleBuck said:


> Uncle Ben said:
> 
> 
> > You did not use Brawndo correctly and/or overdosed on concentrated Eye of Newt.
> ...


No he can't. That sort of explanation would cause his world to quickly come crashing down all around him.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

Gawd, why am I reduced to spoon feeding you guys. Here.....

http://books.google.com/books?id=LS3Pd_mj4e0C&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=F+and+FR+light+transmission+through+leaves&source=bl&ots=onPuTKZaFt&sig=VhdsGx9YZP1jMfiuYXly_pr-u44&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AvMBUYC0O8j9igK3toC4BA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=F and FR light transmission through leaves&f=false


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Appreciate the mouthful 

The amount of #knowledge posted in the last couple pages has OFFICIALLY offset the garbage


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm telling you UB does nothing but spoil people here man... More spoiling less talking plezzzzz


----------



## sheik yerbouti (Jan 24, 2013)

This thread was civil for a week without UB here

I know my results are positive for defoliating, unless you think I'm lying for some reason I know that my yields went up once I started defoliating and you can't argue that otherwise. 

Defoliating is another way of controlling our plants in our controlled artificial environment, things one would do to a plant outside do not always apply to what happens in an artificial indoor growing environment. Posting articles about sunflowers is absolutely asinine by the way, why the hell would I care about what happens to a sunflower outside and compare that to my marijuana plant inside.


----------



## TriPurple (Jan 24, 2013)

After growing the same strain for years a powder mold problem arose. Removing almost all the leaves saved the grow, then noticed about a 10-15% increase in total bud weight. Must of been the PM. . But then again I have no pictures so...... it never happened.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> This thread was civil for a week without UB here
> 
> I know my results are positive for defoliating, unless you think I'm lying for some reason I know that my yields went up once I started defoliating and you can't argue that otherwise.
> 
> Defoliating is another way of controlling our plants in our controlled artificial environment, things one would do to a plant outside do not always apply to what happens in an artificial indoor growing environment. Posting articles about sunflowers is absolutely asinine by the way, why the hell would I care about what happens to a sunflower outside and compare that to my marijuana plant inside.


Still civil lad! Just gotta sift between the garbage...Last couple pages are afterall loaded with useful knowledge


----------



## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

The plants has no 'idea' that it is not in its natural enviroment


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Slab said:


> The plants has no 'idea' that it is not in its natural enviroment


you're in the wrong lane lol..the message is that things done outdoors don't always apply indoors


----------



## sheik yerbouti (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Still civil lad! Just gotta sift between the garbage...Last couple pages are afterall loaded with useful knowledge


The last couple pages are about as useful as my nipples. Just some sniveling and cock competitions instead of actually discussing reasonably whether defoliating can help. I've never heard of a person who has actually experimented with defoliating say that it had negative effects, a lot of guys who have experimented or do it routinely that have positive effects and bunch of guys who have never done it saying its bad. "It must be bad, look at this article on sunflowers!" der.....


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> This thread was civil for a week without UB here


Damn, for a moment there thought you'd take the high road and blame its demise on GW Bush.



> Posting articles about sunflowers is absolutely asinine by the way, why the hell would I care about what happens to a sunflower outside and compare that to my marijuana plant inside.


Yeah, why would anyone care about botany here at Troll It Up? Such a waste of time tsk tsk. 

I'll clue you in - it (the study about sunflowers, light transmission properties, etc.) was a scientific study as opposed to your self induced subjective conclusions.

UB


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> The last couple pages are about as useful as my nipples. Just some sniveling and cock competitions instead of actually discussing reasonably whether defoliating can help. I've never heard of a person who has actually experimented with defoliating say that it had negative effects, a lot of guys who have experimented or do it routinely that have positive effects and bunch of guys who have never done it saying its bad. "It must be bad, look at this article on sunflowers!" der.....


To each his own.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 24, 2013)

Would someone please twist sheik yerbouti's nipples.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Would someone please twist sheik yerbouti's nipples.


haha make some use of them


----------



## bde0001 (Jan 24, 2013)

TriPurple said:


> After growing the same strain for years a powder mold problem arose. Removing almost all the leaves saved the grow, then noticed about a 10-15% increase in total bud weight. Must of been the PM. . But then again I have no pictures so...... it never happened.


I like your avatar...Im gonna steal it...lol


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

Picked up a lot tonight while I ws here! Thanks world


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Gawd, why am I reduced to spoon feeding you guys. Here.....
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=LS3Pd_mj4e0C&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=F+and+FR+light+transmission+through+leaves&source=bl&ots=onPuTKZaFt&sig=VhdsGx9YZP1jMfiuYXly_pr-u44&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AvMBUYC0O8j9igK3toC4BA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=F and FR light transmission through leaves&f=false


I wonder if you realize that you just proved my point with this link. Please take a look at chart 2.7 on page 16, and you will clearly see that leaf absorbance is at least 80% in the usable range for plants. No more than 10% is either reflected or transmitted except above 700nm, which is largely unusable to plants. Again, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?


----------



## sheik yerbouti (Jan 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Damn, for a moment there thought you'd take the high road and blame its demise on GW Bush.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Instead or reading and studying scientific articles on botany I'll spend my time actually studying and reading MY plants. Growing shit is easy, stick it in the ground - water it. You don't need to be a scientist or a botanist. Being high and mighty and showing off your intelligence doesn't make you any better of a grower than a someone who couldn't tell you what photosynthesis is. Growing indoors is a more complicated as your now dealing with space constraints and artificial lighting hence the need to take control of your plants. I'd rather believe my own actual tests on my plants then an article on sunflowers, it never ceases to amaze me why trying something on your own and finding the results is looked upon as a bad thing.....but its its not scientific....



Uncle Ben said:


> Would someone please twist sheik yerbouti's nipples.


Kinky


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I wonder if you realize that you just proved my point with this link. Please take a look at chart 2.7 on page 16, and you will clearly see that leaf absorbance is at least 80% in the usable range for plants. No more than 10% is either reflected or transmitted except above 700nm, which is largely unusable to plants. Again, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?


Also, keep in mind the link posted was clearly for "The Natural Light Environment". I'm pretty much sure that anyone practicing this type of leaf removal isn't doing it in the natural light environment, it's done under artificial lights.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 24, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> Instead or reading and studying scientific articles on botany I'll spend my time actually studying and reading MY plants. Growing shit is easy, stick it in the ground - water it. You don't need to be a scientist or a botanist. Being high and mighty and showing off your intelligence doesn't make you any better of a grower than a someone who couldn't tell you what photosynthesis is. Growing indoors is a more complicated as your now dealing with space constraints and artificial lighting hence the need to take control of your plants. I'd rather believe my own actual tests on my plants then an article on sunflowers, it never ceases to amaze me why trying something on your own and finding the results is looked upon as a bad thing.....but its its not scientific....
> 
> 
> 
> Kinky


The proof is ALWAYS in the SCIENCE.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> The proof is ALWAYS in the SCIENCE.


The problem is that you can "prove" a lot of things with science that aren't always true, if your science is skewed or one-dimensional.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Kite High said:


>


Yup, my buddy just found an error in that book the other day. George should really get a better editor. Both Uncle Ben and myself have also found errors in the Marijuana Growers Encyclopedia that he's published.


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Also, keep in mind the link posted was clearly for "The Natural Light Environment". I'm pretty much sure that anyone practicing this type of leaf removal isn't doing it in the natural light environment, it's done under artificial lights.


artificial lights that arent big enough for the big ass ganjas u wish u had the setup for.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I wonder if you realize that you just proved my point with this link. Please take a look at chart 2.7 on page 16, and you will clearly see that leaf absorbance is at least 80% in the usable range for plants. No more than 10% is either reflected or transmitted except above 700nm, which is largely unusable to plants. Again, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?


Hmmmm red and fred are transmitted thru leaves.... There are some studies that states that nitrogen plays an important role in transmittance... The more nitrogen: the more transmittance... Maybe your leaves where not in optimal condition so more reflectance happened...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> artificial lights that arent big enough for the big ass ganjas u wish u had the setup for.


Actually I'm fine with my setup. I really don't want to pay any more for power, especially when I already produce enough for my needs.

What was your point regarding natural light vs artifical lights, because I think I kinda missed it.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hmmmm red and fred are transmitted thru leaves.... There are some studies that states that nitrogen plays an important role in transmittance... The more nitrogen: the more transmittance... Maybe your leaves where not in optimal condition so more reflectance happened...


No, the were very healthy and green except in the localized spots where they had direct shading. What's transmitted through leaves is mostly above 700nm, which is far red and largely unusable to the plant, which is likely why it's transmitted (ie: it's not used much = not absorbed much = more transmittance).


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hmmmm red and fred are transmitted thru leaves.... There are some studies that states that nitrogen plays an important role in transmittance... The more nitrogen: the more transmittance... Maybe your leaves where not in optimal condition so more reflectance happened...


Take a look at this chart, and then you should understand why 700nm is really not a whole lot of use to us.

View attachment 2495503


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> No, the were very healthy and green except in the localized spots where they had direct shading. What's transmitted through leaves is mostly above 700nm, which is far red and largely unusable to the plant, which is likely why it's transmitted (ie: it's not used much = not absorbed much = more transmittance).
> 
> View attachment 2495502


im trying to find the link were they explain how red and far red affect photo receptors that are link with fruit and flowering... I think that was the idea behind hps lights

here we go
http://www.yale.edu/denglab/paper/Sullivan2003.pdf


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> im trying to find the link were they explain how red and far red affect photo receptors that are link with fruit and flowering... I think that was the idea behind hps lights
> 
> here we go
> http://www.yale.edu/denglab/paper/Sullivan2003.pdf


I think you may be referring to PUR (Photosynthetically Usable Radiation), which is between 400-550nm and 620-700nm. 

You may want to look at this page: http://www.reeftank123.com/lighting/strohmeyer_article.html

Although it's for aquarium lighting, it does include some very useful info that's not discussed in a lot of other places, including Phototropic response, Photosynthetic response, and Chlorophyll synthesis.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Take a look at this chart, and then you should understand why 700nm is really not a whole lot of use to us.
> 
> View attachment 2495503


by phytocromes are sexy man.... Hmmm no I'm referring o the chemical response lower leaves have when they only receive red and f red wavelength... For some reason I'm associating them to flowering and bud development... I'll have to read some... Or probably when ub shows up again he'll link something... As for that spot on your leaf.. The only thing comes to my mind is a high level of reflection...


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I think you may be referring to PUR (Photosynthetically Usable Radiation), which is between 400-550nm and 620-700nm.
> 
> You may want to look at this page: http://www.reeftank123.com/lighting/strohmeyer_article.html
> 
> Although it's for aquarium lighting, it does include some very useful info that's not discussed in a lot of other places, including Phototropic response, Photosynthetic response, and Chlorophyll synthesis.


nice little read... Well tomorrow is another day... Btw I'm such an air head.... A couple of pages ago they were talking about it nvm....


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> by phytocromes are sexy man.... Hmmm no I'm referring o the chemical response lower leaves have when they only receive red and f red wavelength... For some reason I'm associating them to flowering and bud development... I'll have to read some... Or probably when ub shows up again he'll link something... As for that spot on your leaf.. The only thing comes to my mind is a high level of reflection...


Yes, plants certainly do use red for flowering, but far-red not so much. The red spike is at 670nm, with an extreme dropoff above 700nm. Yes, I think you are spot on with the high level of reflection; which is contrary to the previous statements of high transmission of PAR through fan leaves.


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## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

That is the transmittance, absorption and reflection rates of a bean leaf.


Optical properties of cannabis leaves are not the same,obviously.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Slab said:


> That is the transmittance, absorption and reflection rates of a bean leaf.
> 
> 
> Optical properties of cannabis leaves are not the same,obviously.


I didn't post the link, I'm simply responding to it. I'm sure ganja isn't the same as beans, but I would assume it's not too far off. And like I said, real world experience clearly shows me that the PAR light is not transmitting through ganja leaves at a high percentage.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I didn't post the link, I'm simply responding to it. I'm sure ganja isn't the same as beans, but I would assume it's not too far off. And like I said, real world experience clearly shows me that the PAR light is not transmitting through ganja leaves at a high percentage.


I think it will always go back to not enough light for the quantity you are trying to get... It's either go outdoor or get more lights...I don't see a benefit on defoliation if the plant is healthy... Removing upper fan leaves have to affect the bud outcome cuz of all stuff stored in it... I just can't see the benefit of defoliation orremoving leaves for bottom growth man...


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Slab said:


> That is the transmittance, absorption and reflection rates of a bean leaf.
> 
> 
> Optical properties of cannabis leaves are not the same,obviously.


Next grow I'm try to increase nitrogen levels and see if there is any difference... Even though I'm just coming to just get more lights/more grows at the same time... This high yield shit is getting ridiculous...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I think it will always go back to not enough light for the quantity you are trying to get... It's either go outdoor or get more lights...I don't see a benefit on defoliation if the plant is healthy... Removing upper fan leaves have to affect the bud outcome cuz of all stuff stored in it... I just can't see the benefit of defoliation orremoving leaves for bottom growth man...


Honestly the main reason I remove leaves is for better air circulation. I hope you don't have any problems on that front come close to harvest time, because poor air circulation can often manifest as powdery mildew. Yuk! Leaf removal is just one way I'd defeated that concern, and yields have not suffered as a result.

The thing is that we can't be so one dimensional as growers to simply say leaves=photosynthesis=plant growth. I mean, of course that's true. But there are also other factors to consider. Probably the most important factor in terms of leaf removal is how that affects hormonal responses in the plant itself. It's really not that far fetched to think that when a grower removes leaves, that the plant responds hormonally in a way which affects growth in a positive direction, is it?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I think it will always go back to not enough light for the quantity you are trying to get...


No. Lack of light isn't the issue. It's the simple fact that fan leaves shade out the light, which I can clearly see manifested as localized yellowing below the fan leaves which are literally millimeters above it at 7000+ footcandles.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Honestly the main reason I remove leaves is for better air circulation. I hope you don't have any problems on that front come close to harvest time, because poor air circulation can often manifest as powdery mildew. Yuk! Leaf removal is just one way I'd defeated that concern, and yields have not suffered as a result.
> 
> The thing is that we can't be so one dimensional as growers to simply say leaves=photosynthesis=plant growth. I mean, of course that's true. But there are also other factors to consider. Probably the most important factor in terms of leaf removal is how that affects hormonal responses in the plant itself. It's really not that far fetched to think that when a grower removes leaves, that the plant responds hormonally in a way which affects growth in a positive direction, is it?


I have nothing against that.. I mean ou gotta do what you gotta do to keep the plant healthy.... The main thing is the whoe idea behind this thread which is yielding... People should forget about that and focus on growing healthy plants.... I got a fan going on all the time providing air all around so I think it should be fine... I only have 3 plants


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> No. Lack of light isn't the issue. It's the simple fact that fan leaves shade out the light, which I can clearly see manifested as localized yellowing below the fan leaves which are literally millimeters above it at 7000+ footcandles.


Of course is lighting... I'm sure that having an stationary light system can't provide all the angles and stuff, plus why not tucking or training instead of removal? Or a light mover will work as well... Problem is light coming from one direction and fan leaves setting up to get as much light as possible
of course a healthy leaf vs a sick leaf and so on... So many variables... But removing a leaf I think is not the way to fix the problem.. You are just creating another..


----------



## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

And you didn't prune before and got good results, how'd you get par transmittance then?


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 24, 2013)

Slab said:


> And you didn't prune before and got good results, how'd you get par transmittance then?


This thing with mr. Diaz is looking more like trying to prove a point... I'm out of here lol


----------



## hexthat (Jan 24, 2013)

here is a poll everyone vote 

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/616542-fan-leafs-blockers-light-energy.html


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I have nothing against that.. I mean ou gotta do what you gotta do to keep the plant healthy.... The main thing is the whoe idea behind this thread which is yielding... People should forget about that and focus on growing healthy plants.... I got a fan going on all the time providing air all around so I think it should be fine... I only have 3 plants


In my tent with the 600w I only have 4 plants. In that tent I have the exhaust fan (of course), a crappy duct fan for a little extra intake, two 4 inch "computer style" axial fans (120v type @ approx 100cfm each), two small 4 inch circulator fans on the floor, and an upright oscillator. So, that's 7 fans total. I think I'm good there. Problem is I live in a fog bank a few blocks from the beach, so humidity is a constant battle. I just got a dehumidifier in the past few months, and that's helped a lot too.



elkukupanda said:


> Of course is lighting... I'm sure that having an stationary light system can't provide all the angles and stuff, plus why not tucking or training instead of removal? Or a light mover will work as well... Problem is light coming from one direction and fan leaves setting up to get as much light as possible
> of course a healthy leaf vs a sick leaf and so on... So many variables... But removing a leaf I think is not the way to fix the problem.. You are just creating another..


I do tuck and train. Tucking simply doesn't work that great IMO, and the air circulation issue persists.

Sure, a light mover would be good, but wouldn't solve the specific issue I''m talking about. I mean, how would a mover get light to a bottom leaf when the top leaf is literally resting on top of it? The mover isn't going to pick up that top leaf and move it out of the way for me is it? The issue I'm describing really isn't a "problem", it's just something that I've noticed -- that leaves do in fact shade out light and cause localized yellowing in that specific shaded spot.


Slab said:


> And you didn't prune before and got good results, how'd you get par transmittance then?


It simply wasn't that great then. Lots of popcorn and flarf towards the bottom of the plant -- an issue that I didn't have this harvest with some strategic leaf removal.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> This thing with mr. Diaz is looking more like trying to prove a point... I'm out of here lol


No, I'm simply trying to disprove misinformation. If you want to believe one thing, and hold fast to that, well good for you (I guess). Thing is you haven't even gotten through one harvest yet, and you're already set in your ways. Seems kinda silly to me.


----------



## Slab (Jan 24, 2013)

I believe available co2 could be a culprit. More bio mass then your enclosed atmosphere can support.

I do believe by removing leaf you are freeing up air for the rest of the plants.

goodnight look forward to figuring these bitches out another night


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 24, 2013)

Slab said:


> I believe available co2 could be a culprit. More bio mass then your enclosed atmosphere can support.
> 
> I do believe by removing leaf you are freeing up air for the rest of the plants.
> 
> goodnight look forward to figuring these bitches out another night


That's a very good point.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> No, I'm simply trying to disprove misinformation. If you want to believe one thing, and hold fast to that, well good for you (I guess). Thing is you haven't even gotten through one harvest yet, and you're already set in your ways. Seems kinda silly to me.


Nope, it's clear to me that is a light problem... If light is unable to reach certain places its because something you are doing is not doing what the sun does outdoors...I'm not a perfectionist... I know how silly fellas get with this... We are growing pot.. Yes, it's my first grow but I wasn't born yesterday.... You are trying to disprove nothing.... You just don't want to accept facts... Grow one in a 10 x 10 x 10 room... With a couple 1k lights and light movers... You will see that it gets light everywhere.... The sky is pretty wide here... See one thing about arguing to get to an answer is sticking with the main concern... Answering it and then moving on... But if you don't want to hear the answer to your question and decide to ask a bunch more and so.. Lets not reinvent the wheel man... Removing leaves Is the solution... I guess... Like I said before... Before you waste your time doing that... Veg Shorter or whatever..


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> im trying to find the link were they explain how red and far red affect photo receptors that are link with fruit and flowering... I think that was the idea behind hps lights
> 
> here we go
> http://www.yale.edu/denglab/paper/Sullivan2003.pdf


With the most important dynamic for cannabis, a short day plant, is the action of phytochrome on the flowering response. 


> Phytochromes, which are by the far the most studied of all
> the plant photoreceptors, were initially purified on the basis of
> being responsible for the reversible control of night-break of
> short day flowering plants by red and far-red light.


Like I said, we've discussed this stuff for 15 years. This is just rehashing what some of us understand. Hmmmmmmm, wiki has a good one. Let's see....

Got it - 



> Phytochrome is a photoreceptor, a pigment that plants use to detect light. It is sensitive to light in the red and far-red region of the visible spectrum. Many flowering plants use it to regulate the time of flowering based on the length of day and night *(photoperiodism)* and to set circadian rhythms. It also regulates other responses including the germination of seeds (photoblasty), elongation of seedlings, *the size, shape and number of leaves, the synthesis of chlorophyll, and the straightening of the epicotyl or hypocotyl hook of dicot seedlings.* It is found in the leaves of most plants.


Emphasis mine.

Again, my buddy Mel Frank has a good read on phytochrome.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Honestly the main reason I remove leaves is for better air circulation.


Aint buying it, just like I don't buy 90% of the stuff/theories in this forum. If you need money for a few fans I'll be glad to help. Walmart has some good buys.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> It's really not that far fetched to think that when a grower removes leaves, that the plant responds hormonally in a way which affects growth in a positive direction, is it?


Feeling, not a fact.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

hexthat said:


> here is a poll everyone vote
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/616542-fan-leafs-blockers-light-energy.html


Gawd, that's all we need. Another blind leading the blind, feel-good, forum consensus poll.

Popular doesn't mean correct, especially in cannabis forums.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> This thing with mr. Diaz is looking more like trying to prove a point... I'm out of here lol


He is driven to control the narrative, and that's OK if he had any scientific evidence of why fan leaves are destructive which it totally ludicrous. Someone needs to read R.C. Clarke's MJ Botany again and check out Jorge Cervantes.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> I do believe by removing leaf you are freeing up air for the rest of the plants.


Right, and by removing my left leg it frees up more blood for the rest of my body. Where in the hell do you guys get these delusionary feelings?

Sorry to be so crass, but you need to study up on the processes of photosynthesis, plant anatomy, plant part functiions and such BEFORE you consider growing anything, and that includes radishes, beets, and maters.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Nope, it's clear to me that is a light problem... If light is unable to reach certain places its because something you are doing is not doing what the sun does outdoors...


I discussed the issue of the dynamics of popcorn buds (which is what this thread is all about) in a previous post but folks glossed over it. Why? Because my explanation goes against the paradigms of forum protocol, and that makes people uncomfortable. Familiarity breeds comfort. Enough Sociology 101......

Change gears - Botany 405

I'll try again. Grow outdoors like I have many times, you will _experience_ popcorn buds on the lower part of the plant, it's just what cannabis does and has NOTHING to do with light penetration to plant lower levels. That is another forum myth that just won't die, and with every new crop of noobs.....you get the rest. Popcorn buds are a RESULT of chronological plant development, (the top plant develops first and biggest, the bottom develops little or not at all), hormonal processes and most of all the affect of apical dominance. In plain Ingles, the top part of the plant gets all the goodies. Why do you think that when you deprive your plant of N that it sacrifices the N found in lower leaves and transports it to the upper leaves? The Herd of Calves hits their plants with bloom foods, the lower leaves yellow and fall off, and they sit there not able to figure out why.

Uncle Ben


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

Don't apologize , you can't help yourself.
No, the blood would run out on the floor

I am studying!, It was just a thought, his lack of co2 is effecting photosynthesis.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

I did learn from my reading last night, that a leaf doesn't only absorb light for itself. It drives PS for the other leaves.

if you could UB, help me understand what happens to PAR when a leaf reaches its saturation point.

Does transmittance occur?


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

Here is what I was up in the wee hours reading if anyone is interested. 

http://ehleringer.net/Jim/Publications/352.pdf


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 25, 2013)

*Here are some studies 

Here Is a study Compensatory growth responses to defoliation and light availability in two native Mexican woody plant species
http://journals.cambridge.org/action...66467409990514

Defoliation, often caused by herbivory, is a common cause of biomass loss for plants that can affect current and future growth and reproduction. There are three 
models that predict contrasting compensatory growth responses of plants to herbivory and resource availability: (1) Growth rate model, (2) Compensatory continuum 
hypothesis and (3) Limiting resource model. The predictions of these three models were tested on the tree Brosimum alicastrum and the liana Vitis tiliifolia. 
Seedlings were subjected to three levels of experimental defoliation (0%, 50% and 90% leaf removal) along a light resource gradient (1%, 9% and 65% of full sun). 
In both species, defoliation significantly increased leaf production rate and relative growth rate of leaf area, but not of biomass. 
Net assimilation rate was the strongest driver of biomass growth in both species, but leaf area ratio and specific leaf area were also important in B. alicastrum. 
Compensatory responses of leaf area growth in B. alicastrum were significantly greater in higher than lower light availability, consistent with the compensatory 
continuum hypothesis predictions, but in contrast to the growth rate model predictions. The limiting resource model offered an explanation for all possible 
experimental outcomes by directly considering the effects of environmental differences in resource availability.


(Accepted August 5 2003)

Just one more with corn http://journals.cambridge.org/action...21859600062043

Defoliation studies in hybrid maize: II. Dry-matter accumulation, LAI, silking and yield components*
R. P. Singha1 and K. P. P. Naira1

a1 Department of Agronomy, G. B. Pant University of Agriculture and Technology, Pantnagar, India

SUMMARY

Data are presented from an experiment made in two crop seasons, to examine the effects of plant density and degree of defoliation at different stages of growth 
in maize at Pantnagar, India, on the dry-matter accumulation in different plant parts, leaf area index (LAI), time of silking and grain yield components.

Different patterns of dry-matter accumulation in various plant parts was observed. Silking was delayed by increasing plant density. Defoliation (even partial) 
at the 16th fully expanded leaf stage resulted in substantial reduction in LAI and such yield components as number of ears, ear length, ear diameter and 
1000-grain weight. On the other hand, partial defoliation done at the 10th fully expanded leaf stage to simulate an erectophile canopy led to yield increases 
even under high plant density (90000 plants/ha) in the Kharif (rainy season), mainly through an increase in number of ears, 1000-grain weight and grain to stover 
ratio coupled with a reduction in barrenness and percentage of lodging. It is suggested that an increase in the photosynthetic efficiency per unit area of leaf 
resulting from the erectophile canopy is the reason for these effects.

(Received December 18 1974)



http://www.actahort.org/books/218/218_10.htm
LEAF YIELD RESPONSE OF ETHIOPIAN MUSTARD (BRASSICA CARINATA A BR) SELECTIONS TO DEFOLIATION REGIMES
Authors: N.A. Mnzava, W.W. Msikita
Abstract:
The influence of leaf harvest frequency (weekly or bi-weekly) and amount of leaf removal (10%, 50% or 75%) on total yield of three local Ethiopian mustard 
selections 'CRRS-V', 'CRRS-II' and 'Mulio Giant' were studied during two consecutive winter seasons in the field. The amount of leaves removed at each harvest 
rather than harvest frequency significantly affected total yield which was test cultivar-dependent. Yield increased with defoliation rate to an optimum at 27 t 
ha-1 for 'Mulio Giant', and 40 t ha-1 in 'CRRS-II' under either a 50% weekly or 75% bi-weekly harvest frequency, while 'CRRS-V' attained 55 t ha-1 under a 
50% bi-weekly harvest frequency. More frequent and intense defoliation tended to prolong the vegetative phase in all cultivars. The physiological consequences 
of defoliation on earliness to flower and compensatory growth in relation to yield variation in vegetable mustard is discussed.

This showed no loss in grain weight but increased leaf production and photosynthesis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
Effects of timing and defoliation intensity on growth, yield and gas exchange rate of wheat grown under well-watered and drought conditions.
Ahmadi A, Joudi M.
Source

Department of Agronomy and Plant Breeding, Faculty of Agriculture, University of Tehran, Karaj, Iran.
Abstract

The aim of this research was to determine the effects of timing and intensity of source reduction on grain yield of wheat under well-watered and drought stress 
conditions. A field experiment was conducted at the research farm of the Agriculture College, University of Tehran, Karaj, in 2003-2004. Drought stress was 
imposed when plants were at the second node stage by withholding watering and plants were re-irrigated when they showed signs of wilting or leaf rolling, 
particularly during the morning. Various intensities of leaf defoliation were performed at three growth stages: booting, anthesis and 20 days after anthesis. 
Flag leaf gas exchange parameters as well as chlorophyll content measurements were made 20 days after defoliation at each growth stage. Generally leaf removal 
appeared to stimulate an increase of net photosynthesis rate (p(n)) and stomatal conductance (g(s)) of the remaining flag leaf. With leaf removal, stability of 
the flag leaf chlorophyll content tended to increase. Neither grain yield, nor protein content were affected by defoliation. Interestingly, even removal of all 
leaves at anthesis stage did not reduce grain yield and grain protein significantly. Increased remobilization of stored photoassimilate, decreased maintenance 
respiration by source reduction and therefore enhanced photoassimilate partitioning toward grain and spike photosynthesis might be responsible for sustain grain 
growth in this condition.
another http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...67880905002793
Current-year defoliation increased both quality and production of protein and energy compared to non-defoliated plots

We assessed the effects of elevated atmospheric CO2 on ruminant forage quality and nutrient yields during 4 years in semiarid shortgrass steppe where grazing by 
domestic livestock is the primary land-use. A defoliation and a nitrogen fertilization treatment were superimposed on CO2 treatments in large open-top chambers. 
CO2 effects on forage soluble and fiber (celluloses, lignin) constituents were small, even though mid-growing season yield and end of season production increased. 
However, large negative effects of elevated CO2 were evident in crude protein concentrations and digestibility of forages. While the effects were more negative 
mid-growing season than autumn, a reduction in already poor quality autumn forage may be more critical to animals. Crude protein concentrations of autumn forage 
on the elevated CO2 treatment fell below critical maintenance requirements 3 out of 4 years, compared to 1 of 4 for ambient and control treatments. 
Forage digestibility declined 14% mid-season and 10% in autumn with elevated CO2. Negative effects of elevated CO2 on animal performance mediated through forage 
quality are likely to be greater than the positive effects of increased quantity, because quality drops to critically low levels that can inhibit utilization. 
Further, elevated CO2 shifted the proportional availability of protein and energy to a species of lower overall quality and the species most negatively affected 
by drought. Current-year defoliation increased both quality and production of protein and energy compared to non-defoliated plots, but no CO2 by defoliation 
treatment interactions were observed. Nitrogen fertilization increased crude protein concentrations and digestibilities, but not in the least nutritious species 
that increased with elevated CO2 or in autumn when quality was lowest.

*
*One more http://journals.cambridge.org/action...1447970002353X

Effects of Artificial Defoliation (Simulating Pest Damage) on Varieties of Upland Rice
W. E. Taylora1

a1 Njala University College, University of Sierra Leone, P. M. B. Freetown

Abstract

Artificial defoliation was used to simulate grazing by cutting-grass or cane-rat (Thryonomys swinderianus), on three rices with durations of 110115, 130135 
and 140145 days respectively, defoliated before, during and soon after tillering by removing leaves to half, two-thirds and the total height of the plants. 
All varieties showed marked compensatory growth, resulting in increased tillering and yield, especially when defoliated during tillering, but yield fell when 
foliage was removed after tillering, especially with shorter duration rice. Defoliation to half the height of the plant during tillering had the most beneficial 
effect, whereas removal of all leaves to soil level after the tillering stage had the most adverse effect.

And another it produces more corn & double the cotton in dry conditions http://journals.cambridge.org/action...14479703001534

EXPERIMENTAL ASSESSMENT OF THE IMPACT OF DEFOLIATION ON GROWTH AND PRODUCTION OF WATER-STRESSED MAIZE AND COTTON PLANTS
Z. YANG a1c1 and D. J. MIDMORE a1
a1 Plant Sciences Group, School of Biological and Environmental Sciences Central Queensland University, Rockhampton Qld 4702, Australia


Article author query
yang z [PubMed][Google Scholar]
midmore d [PubMed][Google Scholar]
Abstract

In this study, different levels of defoliation were imposed on a determinate species (maize) and a relatively indeterminate species (cotton). 
The aim was to quantify the effects of defoliation on plant growth and production, under either optimum or water-stressed conditions. Under well-watered conditions, 
33% defoliation twice (conducted 28 and 35 days after emergence) resulted in a 16% reduction in grain yield of maize while 67% defoliation once 
(conducted 28 days after emergence) had no significant effect on yield. Under water stress, the grain yields of maize plants with 33% (twice) and 67% defoliation 
were 13.5% and 25% greater than that of non-defoliated control plants, respectively. For cotton, the reproductive yields (seed and lint) with 33% and 67% defoliation
(conducted 43 days after emergence) were reduced, under well-watered conditions, by 28% and 37% of that of the non-defoliated control, respectively. 
Defoliated cotton plants lost less fruiting forms (squares and young bolls) than non-defoliated plants during water stress. Therefore, under water stress the 
harvestable product of cotton plants with 67% defoliation was double that of non-defoliated control plants. In non-defoliated cotton plants, a second flush of 
flowering after release from water-stress permitted further compensatory fruit set and boll harvest. Defoliated plants did not show such levels of compensation. 
Defoliation significantly reduced water use by maize and cotton. The relative yield advantage of defoliated plants under water-stress conditions can be attributed 
to defoliation-induced improvement in water status as reflected in measures of photosynthetic rate and stomatal conductance. Under anticipated drought stress, 
defoliation could be an important management practice to reduce drought-induced yield decrease, but this needs to be tested under field conditions.
 
http://www.forages.ncsu.edu/Technica...scueTB_317.pdf
Research findings show that tall fescue pasture
yield and quality can be greatly improved through
proper defoliation practices and that endophyte-free
tall fescue cultivars can be no-till established into
infected pastures. Further, the experiments show that
with judicious planning and management, producers
can effectively use late summer-accumulated tall
fescue from October to March. These results have
applications wherever tall fescue is grown in North
Carolina and in other mid-Atlantic states.


These are for strawberries http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xm...dle/1957/25728
The number of trusses and flowers on control plants was significantly lower than on early-renovated plants (2 to 5 WAH). Date of renovation had no significant 
effect on yield per plant in the summer of 1990 for all 3 cultivars individually. However, compared with the un-renovated control plants, the pooled yields of 
'Benton', 'Totem', and 'Redcrest' showed a significant increase for early renovated plants (5 WAH or earlier). Compared with un-renovated plants, renovation 
significantly increased berry size in 'Totem', and delayed the date of harvest in 'Totem' and 'Redcrest' but not in 'Benton'.



one more http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...31942298004440
However, growth of defoliated seedlings was considerably higher than that of nondefoliated ones.

Last one I could go on forever http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78429004000541

Analysis of physiological data collected in 1999 suggests that defoliation suppressed vegetative growth, optimized the ratio of AGDM at anthesis to that at final 
harvest (0.50.8, peak 0.66) and led to more AGDM post-anthesis for maximal grain production. Defoliation that led to a yield increase also increased the leaf 
area ratio and enhanced stomatal conductance and photosynthetic capacity at anthesis.

It is concluded that defoliation of early (April)-sown wheat defoliated at the middle to late tillering stage could let to greater yield and WUE, and would not 
result in yield reduction. The value of foliage removed and overall economic and risk analyses are discussed in a further paper.


None of these plants are like pot that can photosynthesis from there fruit or create leaves on the fruit it is like nothing else. Fruit is usually separate from 
leaf like apples.

Defoliation is just another pruning technique like topping, suppercroping, lollypoping or listing.

Topping a plant they go into shock and then develop branches faster then if the top was on.

Supercroping you crush the stem stopping food and water to the branch it goes into shock and stops growing until it heals then gains vigor.

Lollypoping defoliates and removes branches leaving large holes in the stem causing shock till the wounds heal and hormones transfer.

Listing shocks the plant forcing it to change the flow of hormones and stops growth until the hormone transfers and leaves reorientates up.

Defoliation removes large leaf forcing growth to the smaller leaves attached to branches making the branches develop much more replacing the leaf mass in three 
days while keeping the top and creating more bud sites with closer nodes and denser branching.

Are any of these methods scientifically proven to work on pot all cause some shock I have never seen a side by side or proof 
of any kind that these methods work other that peoples opinion but are not questioned much most try it for themselves. The vast majority of people who have 
defoliated are happy with the results I bet a much higher % than the other methods which is why dozens of growers have defended the thread always 
against people who have never tried it usually only a couple of haters at a time versus many more who have done it and produce increased numbers from previous grows.

The only people who argue are ones who admit to not trying it but believe the solar panel religion blindly even thou the leaves replace themselves in 3 days 
I have read much more than most about this and can not find one person who put up numbers or pictures proving this didn't work only a rare post where it didn't 
work for them or they did it wrong I have asked them what happened and they never give details

I have tried all the pruning methods over the years with the exception of supercroping to move a branch I don't care for any of the other methods none have been as good or as fast as defoliation a buddy showed me this years ago when I was part of the solar panel religion till I was converted we didn't do it exactly like the thread but did see results.

I want to investigate this to the fullest Including real side by sides with numbers for a valued test of timing and amounts with controls which will be started soon.

I thank you for reading this and I hope you look at it with an open mind it is a bit to read and much more to write.
* this is week four a week after taking a shopping bag of leaf off you see they keep growing leaves no mater what you do they are over 4 feet high dense bushes. These were defoliated half a dozen times in veg I should have done it a couple of more times but did it again after stretch and now i'm going to do it again a couple of weeks before they are done. I still have too many leaves the light doesn't penetrate far with my 1000 watt less than a foot away the bottom buds that get light are doing good the ones higher up in the shade are losing leaves and have under developed buds it has too do with available light more than apical dominance.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

How about your nitrogen levels bud brewer?

also a majority of those studies are unavailable for review.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 25, 2013)

That is the way with studies they want you to pay for the full report your welcome to pay and see if the conclusions can be disputed but it is proven to work with many different plants just the timing and amounts have to be worked out for maximum yield that is what we should be talking about how to best do it those of us that have done it keep doing it because it makes dense branching in veg and gives light to bud that wouldn't get any very little gets past the canopy.

My nitrogen is high I always feed homemade organics look at the leaves they are perfect so it isn't a lack of anything but light getting past the top canopy and that the plants are over 4 feet high and 3 feet wide the 1000 watt still can't penetrate very far past leaves i have excellent reflection. I'll post some pictures before and after I defoliate to show how much undeveloped buds are buried in the middle lower canopy.

I will be doing a second harvest I started budding at 14 hours light and drop a half hour a week now I'm at 11 hours with two weeks to go they should finish at 10 hours light then chop the big buds reset the light back to 14 hours and feed them some alfalfa. I'll get a bit of a growth spurt a bit of reveg sort of and should get almost as much bud the second time.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

I am going to try that lighting schedule, mimicking the outdoors more. 

It looks stuffy in there, are those walls up only during lights off?

i went vertical this last run, no leaf dropping and the usually popcorn were like aces of spades.

the leaves actuated to the light source, quite a sight.

i wanted to add I did triple the amount of N I was feeding ( fish emulsion ).

Apical dominance was a factor in how developed the lower buds were ( size was stil small) I believe the orientation of the light combated the favoring of the tallest cola.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 25, 2013)

It is exactly the schedule I get up north here I thought I'd do it to see if this strain would finish outside and it gives them more light and is natural they budded just as fast the pics were week four that was 12.5 hour light it works very well.

The walls are a suspended shield of reflex from ropes to move up and down the top foot is folded in to form a 45 degree angle on four sides to reflect light down it works perfect looks cool and works very well. The plants have definitely filled in the space and I could have flipped them sooner but I'll get a great second harvest.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

I am up north also. 


last year I lost the bottom third outside, we no that can't be a lack of penetration.

lack of nitrogen was the cause.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 25, 2013)

I'm losing some in the middle the bottom leaves that get light are fine some of it might be the plants are near done. You might have had low nitrogen or they could have dried out also even outside light will not penatrate all the way through even with the wind and suns movement.


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## lykarckstar420 (Jan 25, 2013)

oHsiN666 said:


> hey guys, im just talking about the lower ones, and SOME of the middle leafs in the middle. and JUST the BUGGER fan leafs. that is all. im not talking about all the leafs or anything like that. but i will leave the rest of the leafs alone. i just had to tie up some plants and was tieing them up with bamboo shots. kinda squeezed the main branches closer together. not much, but enough to have to light travel further down around the outsides of the plants. so there is not as much crowding.


Love to see some pics ? I am in the same boat more or less . I have been tucking them, but when they get moved for whatever reason the tucking goes for naught ...... so like a good TRANNY I tuck again


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

The light were are speaking of penetrates the ground lol.


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## lykarckstar420 (Jan 25, 2013)

420forme said:


> I pull leaves, Cervantes can kiss my ass. I take hand fulls off all through flower. Improves air flow, light penetration, and mold resistance. I get fan leaves the size of your head, if I left them that's all you would see is leaf.
> I have grown with leaving everything on there, just makes for alot of undeveloped buds, and alot more trimming. I had no change in yield.


Great point man !!!!


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## donmagicjuan (Jan 25, 2013)

What point that he can't grow a good plant now he cuts leaves and he thinks that's good? That is one dumass point


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

The leafs lower in the canopy are designed to perform under lower amounts of PAR, r, fr.

me thinks spectrum of light could be a factor


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> What point that he can't grow a good plant now he cuts leaves and he thinks that's good? That is one dumass point


They don't have enough light or air quality, aside from fixing those issues. This is there work around.

it is a poor one I admit.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

It's like they are raising calves for veal lol


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > No, I'm simply trying to disprove misinformation. If you want to believe one thing, and hold fast to that, well good for you (I guess). Thing is you haven't even gotten through one harvest yet, and you're already set in your ways. Seems kinda silly to me.
> ...


It's not reaching certain places because it's an indoor grow in a small space with 4 large plants, and I want to maximize my yields. If I had less or smaller plants I wouldn't have leaves covering each other. I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm trying to describe. Again, you haven't even gotten through your first harvest and you already think you know it all. I'm simply gonna call you Little Ben.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> He is driven to control the narrative, and that's OK if he had any scientific evidence of why fan leaves are destructive which it totally ludicrous. Someone needs to read R.C. Clarke's MJ Botany again and check out Jorge Cervantes.


Perhaps the reason I'm able to control the narrative is my good reading comprehension. I own both those books, but don't agree with everything in them.

I never said fan leaves were destructive. Are you stupid or just senile? 

You posted some scientific study last night, which I pointed out proved my point. I see you've failed to come up with any witty reply to that one, and of course you can't come up with any real data to explain it either. You're a poser, plain and simple. Why are you even still here? Oh, never-mind I already figured it out. You're still ass sore because a mod and myself trolled your troll thread (and thread with a title that includes "noobs" and "snake oil" in the title is clearly a troll thread), and shut it down. Dude, just get some prep H and take a hot bath. I'm not your enemy, I'm your enlightener. I troll trolls exclusively.


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## thoumayest (Jan 25, 2013)

840/2 said:


> Just bend them gently down and/or outta the way



.........Agreed.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

We have determined that it is not amount of light causing that yellowing. You stated it is at the top there is plenty of light is avail.

yes it is true that 80 -90% of par is absorbed by the leaf and the rest as I stated is transmitted. 

That absorbed light is used through out the entire plant and not just the leaf absorbing it.

over saturation has yet to be discussed here and is worth a look photo inhibition is the phenomenon


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> We have determined that it is not amount of light causing that yellowing. You stated it is at the top there is plenty of light is avail.
> 
> yes it is true that 80 -90% of par is absorbed by the leaf and the rest as I stated is transmitted.
> 
> ...


I agree with that, but at the same time the absorbed light is used in a fairly localized manner, which is why some leaves that don't get as much lights as others may yellow sooner.


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## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

I bet you Running a co2 tank would stop that yellowing, just a hunch.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> I bet you Running a co2 tank would stop that yellowing, just a hunch.


Perhaps, but I'm not going to go that direction.

Let's keep this in context though.. The only yellowing I had on my plants this run (aside from one plant that I was running a new nute regiment on; which sucked BTW) was in a very specific area where one leaf laid right on top of a portion of another leaf. That's it. Green all the way to harvest otherwise. I think if anything the stomata were simply being blocked by the top leaf, which is why I feel like your co2 thoughts are a good point. The problem however is that you can only take that idea so far.. I mean, let's say I pumped my tent to the max c02 level (without being toxic to my plants), the fact remains that the top leaf would still be covering the stomata of the bottom leaf. 

Compare it to this: as a human if we're put in an oxygen rich environment, we still can't breathe very well with a sweatshirt covering our face.


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## sheik yerbouti (Jan 25, 2013)

I firmly believe that if you've never tried defoliating you can't say shit whether it's good or not. How could you know how it effects marijuana plants if you've never seen it or tried it? No one is saying it's a guaranteed bet that if you pull the fan leaves off you'll get more yield. It's another way of controlling your plants. 

Have a small grow space and and fast growing plant, pull the leaves off in veg and your plant will slow vertical growth, you'll see the internodes are tighter now. 

Have a dense SOG or SCROG and your plants are stretching because they are getting shaded by other plants and stretching for the light? Pull the leaves off your plants will now have the light they need and won't stretch. 

Notice the nugs in the lower portion of your grow are light green and airy? pull some leaves off and they will thicken up.

Doing a Vertical bulb grow and your plant only sees one side of light? pull some leaves off and light will penetrate the plant and the far side will see more light. 

So many reasons to pull fan leaves off for certain growing styles. If you have a couple of plants spaced out with lots of light from all directions then you will probably not have any use for fan leafing but don't go talking shit about how it must be bad because "leaves are the solar panels for you plant" ya ya, not everyone has the same set-up and taking fan leaves off does help for certain set-ups. That is a fact.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'll try again. Grow outdoors like I have many times, you will _experience_ popcorn buds on the lower part of the plant, it's just what cannabis does and has NOTHING to do with light penetration to plant lower levels. That is another forum myth that just won't die, and with every new crop of noobs.....you get the rest. Popcorn buds are a RESULT of chronological plant development, (the top plant develops first and biggest, the bottom develops little or not at all), hormonal processes and most of all the affect of apical dominance. In plain Ingles, the top part of the plant gets all the goodies. Why do you think that when you deprive your plant of N that it sacrifices the N found in lower leaves and transports it to the upper leaves? The Herd of Calves hits their plants with bloom foods, the lower leaves yellow and fall off, and they sit there not able to figure out why.
> 
> Uncle Ben


I just put my first plant from my first every defoliated harvest into jars (first plant came in @ 98 grams btw) and I think you should know that popcorn nugs with this strain are super minimal compared to previous harvests of genetic clones. G13Haze


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> i firmly believe that if you've never tried defoliating you can't say shit whether it's good or not. How could you know how it effects marijuana plants if you've never seen it or tried it? No one is saying it's a guaranteed bet that if you pull the fan leaves off you'll get more yield. It's another way of controlling your plants.
> 
> Have a small grow space and and fast growing plant, pull the leaves off in veg and your plant will slow vertical growth, you'll see the internodes are tighter now.
> 
> ...



^^this guy knows what's up^^

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sheik yerbouti again.*


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Aint buying it, just like I don't buy 90% of the stuff/theories in this forum. If you need money for a few fans I'll be glad to help. Walmart has some good buys.
> 
> UB


I guess you missed my post just a few before yours where I clearly described my 7 fans in a 4x4 space. Again, READING COMPREHENSION is key. As I said, I live 3 blocks from the beach, but I can't expect some mid-westerner to understand what that means to evening atmospheric conditions. Perhaps you could use your god-like abilities to get rid of the evening fog banks that engulf my house nightly.



Uncle Ben said:


> Feeling, not a fact.


I didn't say it was a fact, now did I. Why do you look at everything from such a warped perspective and rehash it out of context?

The point is, much of your science is very one dimensional, and doesn't take the big picture into consideration. My point was, that it's certainly at least worthwhile to consider that there's more to this whole leaf removal thing than simple photosynthesis, and that perhaps hormonal responses resulting from leaf removal may play a larger role than previously considered. It's daft of you to dubunk a possibility simply because it hasn't been researched yet.

Oh, and if case no one told you yet, the world isn't flat anymore either. What does Ms Uncle Ben think about all that, if there is one, or did you run all the women in your life away with your crotchety and disgruntled cynicism?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> I did learn from my reading last night, that a leaf doesn't only absorb light for itself. It drives PS for the other leaves.
> 
> if you could UB, help me understand what happens to PAR when a leaf reaches its saturation point.
> 
> Does transmittance occur?


You've got it backwards. What happens to a leaf above its saturation point. Do a search. I've linked this research a dozen times.

Not gonna address the anecdotal evidence post by post as it's the same old stuff - none of you are capable of replicating the absolute cultural factors at least 3 times to draw any kind of a conclusion. You're seeing what you want to see. Hells bells, none of you is even running clones and doing a control group. 

I'll say it again, you butcher and do all the tricks you want to your garden, but if you were on my farm and I caught you "suckering" my tomato plants or defoliating my fruit, nut, berries, citrus or avocado trees....I'd kick your ass where your tonsils ought to be. 

Carry on,
UB


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Aint buying it, just like I don't buy 90% of the stuff/theories in this forum. If you need money for a few fans I'll be glad to help. Walmart has some good buys.
> 
> UB






Uncle Ben said:


> I'll say it again, you butcher and do all the tricks you want to your garden, but if you were on my farm and I caught you "suckering" my tomato plants or defoliating my fruit, nut, berries, citrus or avocado trees....I'd kick your ass where your tonsils ought to be.


Why would anyone do that?? You're not growing trees indoors in an enclosed environment under artificial lighting are you?


----------



## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

Quit ball polishing each other.

I see your point PJ. 

You guys are trying to change clothes in a phone booth, you will have to change the way you get undressed.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> *Here are some studies
> 
> The predictions of these three models were tested on the tree Brosimum alicastrum and the liana Vitis tiliifolia.
> Seedlings were subjected to three levels of experimental defoliation (0%, 50% and 90% leaf removal) along a light resource gradient (1%, 9% and 65% of full sun).
> In both species, defoliation significantly increased leaf production rate and relative growth rate of leaf area, but not of biomass. *


*

Fine, I already stated that a plant will try to replace that which it knows should be there. I found that out when I severly defoliated some Mexican many years ago. So, why bother? There were so many factors stated in your references that they can't transpose to what we're doing. For starts, I know of no one growing a water stressed plant, under drought conditions, like you cited with the cotton crop. For starts, cotton is more like okra. Cannabis is more like tomatoes. 




SUMMARY

Different patterns of dry-matter accumulation in various plant parts was observed. Silking was delayed by increasing plant density. Defoliation (even partial) 
at the 16th fully expanded leaf stage resulted in substantial reduction in LAI and such yield components as number of ears, ear length, ear diameter and 
1000-grain weight.

Click to expand...

Monocot versus a dicot. Silks, ears, oh my!*


----------



## sheik yerbouti (Jan 25, 2013)

> You're seeing what you want to see. Hells bells, none of you is even running clones and doing a control group.


Actually I am, it's no scientific study but it sure is easy to take a couple of plants, strip the fans leaves off, leave the rest and see how it effects the growth. I recommend trying it.



> I'll say it again, you butcher and do all the tricks you want to your garden, but if you were on my farm and I caught you "suckering" my tomato plants or defoliating my fruit, nut, berries, citrus or avocado trees....I'd kick your ass where your tonsils ought to be.
> 
> Carry on,
> UB


What the hell does an advocado plant have to do with an indoor grow? let alone a singular tree outside in natural lighting with comparison to an indoor SOG grow? Asinine. I bet you prune your apple tree's to get more fruit though....


----------



## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You've got it backwards. What happens to a leaf above its saturation point. Do a search. I've linked this research a dozen times.
> 
> Not gonna address the anecdotal evidence post by post as it's the same old stuff - none of you are capable of replicating the absolute cultural factors at least 3 times to draw any kind of a conclusion. You're seeing what you want to see. Hells bells, none of you is even running clones and doing a control group.
> 
> ...



ok I will be more diligent in my studies, I am pro leaf. Big on roots also for the record.

you even fart in my general direction you would be fertilizing my next outdoor crop, you cantankerous old salty dog lol.


----------



## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

Xanthophyll cycle?

Am I in the right direction?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> Actually I am, it's no scientific study but it sure is easy to take a couple of plants, strip the fans leaves off, leave the rest and see how it effects the growth. I recommend trying it.
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell does an advocado plant have to do with an indoor grow? let alone a singular tree outside in natural lighting with comparison to an indoor SOG grow? Asinine. I bet you prune your apple tree's to get more fruit though....


An avocado tree has leaves. 

Like I said, I wouldn't touch the leaves on an apple tree. That's stupid and results in less fruit of lower quality. You see, there's this odd thing going on with plants called "photosynthesis". I open up dormant fruit trees in to a vase shape much like what happens with my 4 main cola drill. Fruiting trees are pruned hard when dormant during the winter, it's a common practice done on all fruiting trees done for certain reasons, but that's not the type of butchering you're talking about and for different reasons regarding certain results and profiles.

Look, you'll not convince me with your anecdotal evidence and hearsay and I'll not convince you with my science.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> Actually I am, it's no scientific study but it sure is easy to take a couple of plants, strip the fans leaves off, leave the rest and see how it effects the growth. I recommend trying it.


As stated in a previous post, I have. You think God put those super efficient big ass photon collectors there for some marihuana nerd to strip 'em off?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> An avocado tree has leaves.
> 
> Like I said, I wouldn't touch the leaves on an apple tree. That's stupid and results in less fruit of lower quality. You see, there's this odd thing going on with plants called "photosynthesis". I open up dormant fruit trees in to a vase shape much like what happens with my 4 main cola drill. Fruiting trees are pruned hard when dormant during the winter, it's a common practice done on all fruiting trees done for certain reasons, but that's not the type of butchering you're talking about.
> 
> ...


Again. Please try some reading comprehension. He's talking about indoor vs outdoor grows. Are you getting senile or something?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> As stated in a previous post, I have. You think God put those super efficient big ass photon collectors there for some marihuana nerd to strip 'em off?


I'm pretty sure HPS didn't even exist yet when HE created ganja.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Again. Please try some reading comprehension. He's talking about indoor vs outdoor grows. Are you getting senile or something?


See my avatar? That's indoor.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> ok I will be more diligent in my studies, I am pro leaf. Big on roots also for the record.


How exciting. For a while there I thought all you was interested was bud.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> See my avatar? That's indoor.


That's nice. What's that have to do with avocado trees grown outside exactly?


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> It's not reaching certain places because it's an indoor grow in a small space with 4 large plants, and I want to maximize my yields. If I had less or smaller plants I wouldn't have leaves covering each other. I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm trying to describe. Again, you haven't even gotten through your first harvest and you already think you know it all. I'm simply gonna call you Little Ben.


and ill call you by your name Mr. Diaz.. i don't play those silly games.. neither should ya sire.. I'm not talking for myself(actually i'm)... since you insist that i only have one grow... the evidence back up by science that i believe in have many... many.. more people with much more grows and experience and whatever you want to add to make sentences beautiful... you are pretty absolute aren't you? trashing UB as this and that when you are just another snowflake waiting to decay.. but you know what.. ill do us a favour and reply to you again after my next grow sire.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I discussed the issue of the dynamics of popcorn buds (which is what this thread is all about) in a previous post but folks glossed over it. Why? Because my explanation goes against the paradigms of forum protocol, and that makes people uncomfortable. Familiarity breeds comfort. Enough Sociology 101......
> 
> Change gears - Botany 405
> 
> ...


so its pretty much hormonal response and re distribution of growth on lower buds due to the mass murder of leaves? see.. the thing is that i'm being fallacious by even believe this people claiming they are growing their weed to an optimal level and then claiming that because they defoliated and yield increased... then defoliation works... hell you know what.. and the only reason i even commented is to prevent new comes reading this to go after defoliation before even trying to master the art of growing a healthy plant..


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> and ill call you by your name Mr. Diaz.. i don't play those silly games.. neither should ya sure.. I'm not talking for myself... since you insist that i only have one grow... the evidence back up by science that i believe in have many... many.. more people with much more grows and experience and whatever you want to add to make sentences beautiful... you are pretty absolute aren't you? trashing UB as this and that when you are just another snowflake waiting to decay.. but you know what.. ill do us a favour and even reply to you again after my next grow sire.


No, I'm not absolute, and that's the point. It's folks like yourself and Uncle Ben who insist on following a specific path unwaveringly, while insulting anyone who simply disagrees or wants to try their own experiments. It's quite childish and ignorant in my opinion. Not to mention that I'm sure that I have more college level coursework in the areas of horticulture, botany, soil science, and pest management than you will ever have.


----------



## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

look at this dank nug


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> No, I'm not absolute, and that's the point. It's folks like yourself and Uncle Ben who insist on following a specific path unwaveringly, while insulting anyone who simply disagrees or wants to try their own experiments. It's quite childish and ignorant in my opinion. Not to mention that I'm sure that I have more college level coursework in the areas of horticulture, botany, soil science, and pest management than you will ever have.


 i never insulted you, i just don't agree with your personal beliefs... again.. don't take my word for what i'm saying but from people who have more education and dedication... and less ego than yourself. yes.. people who actually conduct experiments and elevate the rest of the populace with scientific data....


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> so its pretty much hormonal response and re distribution of growth on lower buds due to the mass murder of leaves? see.. the thing is that i'm being fallacious by even believe this people claiming they are growing their weed to an optimal level and then claiming that because they defoliated and yield increased... then defoliation works... hell you know what.. and the only reason i even commented is to prevent new comes reading this to go after defoliation before even trying to master the art of growing a healthy plant..


Personally I've never ever insisted that yields will increase. I've only insisted that they will not necessary decrease either. There are in fact other advantages of leaf removal aside from the whole photosynthesis thing. Unfortunately you seem too closed minded to learn. I really feel sorry for you. I really hope your harvest cones out ok, really I do.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> i never insulted you, i just don't agree with your personal beliefs... again.. don't take my word for what i'm saying but from people who have more education and dedication... and less ego than yourself.


You knave no idea what my education and/or professional experience is brother.


----------



## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

i grew this one, Uncle Ben you would probaly throw this in the mater jelly/relish pile/


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> You knave no idea what my education and/or professional experience is brother.


Keep it for yourself brother.. if you are so hot.. go and prove it like you like to say.. in the "real" world.. not in this forum... why not.. and in your games.. Mr. Darwin..


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> trashing UB as this and that when you are just another snowflake waiting to decay..


You didn't insult me? OK true. However you did make a lame attempt to do so.

Perhaps you could tell me how exactly I thrashed UB, because in my mind all I did was respond to his inaccuracies. It seems to me that UB is simply coming into this thread to start shit and trollitup. It seems that you are his fanboy and joining in. Be a leader, not a follower my friend. I really do want you to succeed, really I do. Don't allow yourself be be led astray blindly, lost in a flock of sheep.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Keep it for yourself brother.. if you are so hot.. go and prove it like you like to say.. in the "real" world.. not in this forum... why not.. and in your games.. Mr. Darwin..


I usually do keep it to myself. My point is, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about on that point, which would lead me to believe the same for most of your silly statements. 

FYI, I'm only responding to you for my personal amusement. It's funny.


----------



## sheik yerbouti (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> As stated in a previous post, I have. You think God put those super efficient big ass photon collectors there for some marihuana nerd to strip 'em off?


Thats like me saying "you think god put those nice branches on your apple tree's for you to just prune them off?" silly arguement, we manipulate plants in all sorts of ways to get what we want out of them.



Uncle Ben said:


> An avocado tree has leaves.
> 
> Like I said, I wouldn't touch the leaves on an apple tree. That's stupid and results in less fruit of lower quality. You see, there's this odd thing going on with plants called "photosynthesis". I open up dormant fruit trees in to a vase shape much like what happens with my 4 main cola drill. Fruiting trees are pruned hard when dormant during the winter, it's a common practice done on all fruiting trees done for certain reasons, but that's not the type of butchering you're talking about and for different reasons regarding certain results and profiles.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, you will not convince me with scientific articles when I have personally seen the results on my grows and other peoples and I won't convince you otherwise as your growing style is to emulate what happens outside to the inside environment. I'm fine with that, personal preference.

What I don't understand is why you try to prove something wrong with only scientific articles when you'll never really properly attempted to see how it effects a grow inside. I've read a lot of your work and you have shared a lot of good information from pruning for tops, spin-out for chemical pruning, to dialing in nutrients with a better NPK ratios than cann_abis _specific nutrient provide. It's great information for all growers. But you know how you got this information to share? by doing experiments on your own and finding out the results, THEN sharing the information good or bad. I challenge you to start a SOG grow under a bunch of lights, leave half of them on their own, fan leave the other half every two weeks and see the result like a lot of us have done. THEN share your results and if you still believe defoliation has a negative effect on marijuana plants then fair enough. I have done the tests on my own and therefor I can testify and try and help others who may be curious about how defoliation can help a grow. Scientific articles on corn, cowpeas or lemon tree's really don't prove anything. Going to your grow and trying it out is the only way to really know if it helps. Hell you've been around for long enough that you must have seen some positive results from accomplished growers that defoliate, unless you've just just choosen to ignore it.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> You didn't insult me? OK true. However you did make a lame attempt to do so.
> 
> Perhaps you could tell me how exactly I thrashed UB, because in my mind all I did was respond to his inaccuracies. It seems to me that UB is simply coming into this thread to start shit and trollitup. It seems that you are his fanboy and joining in. Be a leader, not a follower my friend. I really do want you to succeed, really I do. Don't allow yourself be be led astray blindly, lost in a flock of sheep.


lol, you are such a bad sport man... i don't have to tell you what you already know... and for your information... i'm not delusional... see.. how to put it... maybe you are trying to prove something to someone... maybe a trauma... i dont know you... i dont care... but simply is as... someone like UB who works on the field and its back up with modern science is good where he is at... i will learn from him as much as i can... and guess what.. when UB is not around anymore... ill have enough experience to share and give to new generations... and guess what.. when i'm not around anymore... and so... and so... and so... i don't know how you see that things work... but in my "world", sharing... works better... then pretending to be the shit...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> so its pretty much hormonal response and re distribution of growth on lower buds due to the mass murder of leaves? see.. the thing is that i'm being fallacious by even believe this people claiming they are growing their weed to an optimal level and then claiming that because they defoliated and yield increased... then defoliation works... hell you know what.. and the only reason i even commented is to prevent new comes reading this to go after defoliation before even trying to master the art of growing a healthy plant..


He's trolling, trying to harrASS. No need to take the bait unless you want to. 

The following may make you feel better and confirms this twerp's arrogance and stupidity. The noob doesn't understand plant anatomy nor plant part functions (i.e. large fan leaves). Let's have some fun.... 

DiAss says:


> I think if anything the stomata were simply being blocked by the top leaf, which is why I feel like your co2 thoughts are a good point.
> 
> ......the fact remains that the top leaf would still be covering the stomata of the bottom leaf.


Gawd that's funny! Di Ass, let me clue you in. Stomata is a specialized valve system located on the UNDERSIDE of a dicot leaf like cannabis or on both sides of the leaf such as grasses. You can't cover it up unless you seal it from underneath with Saran wrap and glue LOL. 

Bueno bye,
Tio


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> lol, you are such a bad sport man... i don't have to tell you what you already know... and for your information... i'm not delusional... see.. how to put it... maybe you are trying to prove something to someone... maybe a trauma... i dont know you... i dont care... but simply is as... someone like UB who works on the field and its back up with modern science is good where he is at... i will learn from him as much as i can... and guess what.. when UB is not around anymore... ill have enough experience to share and give to new generations... and guess what.. when i'm not around anymore... and so... and so... and so... i don't know how you see that things work... but in my "world", sharing... works better... then pretending to be the shit...


[video=youtube;h-sGDe-yMKs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-sGDe-yMKs&amp;noredirect=1[/video]

I love you too man, but not in a gay way. Sorry.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I usually do keep it to myself. My point is, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about on that point, which would lead me to believe the same for most of your silly statements.
> 
> FYI, I'm only responding to you for my personal amusement. It's funny.


so i'm lol.. probably i don't have much idea if it weren't by the studies of others... which is pretty much you... like i said.. hot shot... write a book and educate the world..


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Gawd that's funny! Di Ass, let me clue you in. Stomata is a specialized valve system located on the UNDERSIDE of a dicot leaf like cannabis or on both sides of the leaf such as grasses. You can't cover it up unless you seal it from underneath with Saran wrap and glue LOL.


Oh, dude, your totally right. What an idiot I am. I guess it must be that the leaf blocks out the light then. Thanks for taking the bait and proving my point, LOL!


----------



## Slab (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> lol, you are such a bad sport man... i don't have to tell you what you already know... and for your information... i'm not delusional... see.. how to put it... maybe you are trying to prove something to someone... maybe a trauma... i dont know you... i dont care... but simply is as... someone like UB who works on the field and its back up with modern science is good where he is at... i will learn from him as much as i can... and guess what.. when UB is not around anymore... ill have enough experience to share and give to new generations... and guess what.. when i'm not around anymore... and so... and so... and so... i don't know how you see that things work... but in my "world", sharing... works better... then pretending to be the shit...


he busted out the Burst fire on that ass... ... ... ...


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> [video=youtube;h-sGDe-yMKs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-sGDe-yMKs&amp;noredirect=1[/video]
> 
> I love you too man, but not in a gay way. Sorry.


hahah i know it "hurts" man. its ok... i love you in a gay


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> so i'm lol.. probably i don't have much idea if it weren't by the studies of others... which is pretty much you... like i said.. hot shot... write a book and educate the world..


Who says I haven't written a book. You don't know me dude.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Who says I haven't written a book. You don't know me dude.


hahahah again.. keep it for yourself... please write another book and educate the world once again


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> hahahah again.. keep it for yourself... please write another book and educate the world once again


Apps are easier and less work.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> he busted out the Burst fire on that ass... ... ... ...


lol man i'm loling here... He was like.. for my sons... i'm god... i thought to myself... " this fucking antisocial with vibes of fidel castro don't let his kids be exposed to society... "kids! forget what society says... we drink peepee and eat poopoo" it goes against science.. but wtver...


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

You know what Mr. Diaz... I'm done! you win! congratulations...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> You know what Mr. Diaz... I'm done! you win! congratulations...


Didn't that happen like 5 pages ago?


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Didn't that happen like 5 pages ago?


You is right


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

I troll trolls for breakfast, as per my new sig.


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> lol man i'm loling here... He was like.. for my sons... i'm god... i thought to myself... " this fucking antisocial with vibes of fidel castro don't let his kids be exposed to society... "kids! forget what society says... we drink peepee and eat poopoo" it goes against science.. but wtver...


Dude! you may be okay with the occasional urine guzzling but DO NOt feed your kids "poopoo." Not cool, man... not cool. what would your dental-mechanic say? Really though, I appreciate your brand of humor (_(_)==========D~~~~~~~elukukupanda~~~

P.S. the NWO is building enslavement camps and mass graves- look it up!11 
vote Ron Paul


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> Dude! you may be okay with the occasional urine guzzling by DOn,t feed your kids "poopoo." Not cool, man... not cool. what would your dental-mechanic say? Really though, I appreciate you brand of humor (_(_)==========D~~~~~~~elukukupanda~~~
> 
> P.S. the NWO is building enslavement camps and mass graves- look it up!11
> vote Ron Paul


Not interested, not part of it man... and i do appreciate your sense of humour as well... how to put it... i have seen it before...


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> You know what Mr. Diaz... I'm done! you win! congratulations...


YOU, Sir, have been defoliated.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> YOU, Sir, have been defoliated.


OF every single leaf, next...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> YOU, Sir, have been defoliated.


We only do it to grow him some bigger buds of course.


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 25, 2013)

[video=youtube;1K_dNE3SlJw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K_dNE3SlJw[/video]


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> OF every single leaf, next...


are you pandering to be deflowered?


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> are you pandering to be deflowered?


no, not really.. never been into defoliation.. what makes you think that?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> no, not really.. never been into defoliation.. what makes you think that?


Maybe he was looking at some of the pics in your grow thread.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Maybe he was looking at some of the pics in your grow thread.


Sir, you won already... just... please don't hurt the kids...


----------



## Moon Goblin (Jan 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> Xanthophyll cycle?
> 
> Am I in the right direction?


Yeah, is he? Can someone regurgitate what this cycle is, in a stoner- coherent way ?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Sir, you won already... just... please don't hurt the kids...


Didn't you say you were leaving twice now? Why are you still here. My suggestion for you is this: go out right now and buy some greencure and spray your plants tonight. It will help you a lot three weeks from now. It's good advice, take it or leave it, but please go do something else now, umkay?


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Didn't you say you were leaving twice now? Why are you still here. My suggestion for you is this: go out right now and buy some greencure and spray your plants tonight. It will help you a lot three weeks from now. It's good advice, take it or leave it, but please go do something else now, umkay?


ahahahahah... poor kids... oh well...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Moon Goblin said:


> Yeah, is he? Can someone regurgitate what this cycle is, in a stoner- coherent way ?


Sure. Too much light can be bad.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 25, 2013)

It like a bad movie playing over and over, you can't do it but I'm doing it it works, you can't do it but I'm doing it it works, you can't do it but I'm doing it it works. Ok I'm leaving unsubbed. Ok I'm leaving unsubbed. Ok I'm leaving unsubbed. I don't know how many times I've seen UB post this and a few more but you all keep trolling adding little picking one sentence without the link to the many studies I posted with links but no-one will take the time to see it works for many plants not just pot but science has no place here just inexperience in this topic.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It like a bad movie playing over and over, you can't do it but I'm doing it it works, you can't do it but I'm doing it it works, you can't do it but I'm doing it it works. Ok I'm leaving unsubbed. Ok I'm leaving unsubbed. Ok I'm leaving unsubbed. I don't know how many times I've seen UB post this and a few more but you all keep trolling adding little picking one sentence without the link to the many studies I posted with links but no-one will take the time to see it works for many plants not just pot but science has no place here just inexperience in this topic.


It's pure entertainment. Pack the bong, make some popcorn, sit back, and enjoy the ride.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> *I think if anything the stomata were simply being blocked by the top leaf*, which is why I feel like your co2 thoughts are a good point. The problem however is that you can only take that idea so far.. I mean, let's say I pumped my tent to the max c02 level (without being toxic to my plants), *the fact remains that the top leaf would still be covering the stomata of the bottom leaf.*


Yes, you are an idiot. (And no one caught it but me.)

Uncle Ben


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > *I think if anything the stomata were simply being blocked by the top leaf*, which is why I feel like your co2 thoughts are a good point. The problem however is that you can only take that idea so far.. I mean, let's say I pumped my tent to the max c02 level (without being toxic to my plants), *the fact remains that the top leaf would still be covering the stomata of the bottom leaf.*
> ...


I'm not an idiot, simply a stoner.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

I don't even read whatever he have to say about plants... He is a winner... The trooling and the god like figure to his sons have more value. Anyways, UB... Is 13c too low? I been reading that at 13c is too cold or (not optimal temp at night ). I got the settings ready for adjustment... What's the command?


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 25, 2013)

....dude wut


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

It's cool. I said something dumb in a stoned coffee daze. One point for Uncle Ben. Well done brother. So lest see, that's one point for UB vs how many for PJ? Pretty sure I'm still in the lead in the debunking dumb explanations area of things.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I don't even read whatever he have to say about plants... He is a winner... The trooling and the god like figure to his sons have more value. Anyways, UB... Is 13c too low? I been reading that at 13c is too cold or (not optimal temp at night ). I got the settings ready for adjustment... What's the command?


It's not too low (for night temps) as long as you understand that temps dictate growth rate, all things aside. The lower the day/night temps are, the slower the plant will develop. And herein lies the fallacy, what's not told, when seedbanks claim one of their mutts will finish within a certain time frame. Of course they are telling the consumer what they want to hear in order to make a fast buck.

I'm all about tweeks, to the Nth degree and one of those is optimizing the garden's temperature. 30/17C, day/night, is just about right for optimum growth rates. A bit lower during flowering which follows a natural plant cycle in nature. And you know me, I'm all about doing what mama natur tells me do. 

UB


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I don't even read whatever he have to say about plants... He is a winner... The trooling and the god like figure to his sons have more value. Anyways, UB... Is 13c too low? I been reading that at 13c is too cold or (not optimal temp at night ). I got the settings ready for adjustment... What's the command?


Is that your day or night temp? I assume night. What's daytime? The difference between the two is important.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> It's cool. I said something dumb in a stoned coffee daze. One point for Uncle Ben. Well done brother. So lest see, that's one point for UB vs how many for PJ? Pretty sure I'm still in the lead in the debunking dumb explanations area of things.


You wouldn't know the difference between a stomate and your pie hole if your collection of books depended on it. 

For the record.......they're all located below.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's not too low as long as you understand that temps dictate growth rate, all things aside. The lower day/night temps, the slower the plant will develop. And herein lies the fallacy, what's not told, when seedbanks claim one of their mutts will finish within a certain time frame. Of course they are telling the consumer what they want to hear in order to make a fast buck.
> 
> I'm all about tweeks, to the Nth degree and one of those is optimizing the garden's temperature. 30/17C, day/night, is just about right for optimum growth rates. A bit lower during flowering which follows a natural plant cycle in nature. And you know me, I'm all about doing what mama natur tells me do.
> 
> UB


Ok, I'm make it 30/16... I was liking that rate... Now.. Just for the notes... The water uptake by the plant have also decreased considerably... Maybe from 4days in flowering (5 gal bucket) to 5-6 days... I was worrying about roots problems and diseases but I read somewhere as temp go lower does problems also go away since at those cold temps nothing can really develop as well down there... Is this correct?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > It's cool. I said something dumb in a stoned coffee daze. One point for Uncle Ben. Well done brother. So lest see, that's one point for UB vs how many for PJ? Pretty sure I'm still in the lead in the debunking dumb explanations area of things.
> ...


I'm flattered by how much of your energy you've given me brother. I'm over here relishing in it while I bone my awesome defoil harvest. What can I say? Whatever I'm doing these days my weed us just getting bigger and better. You can't change that, so I live you too brother. Next time I'm in the Midwest I'll come by and smoke you out brother.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

I know you guys don't care what I have to say, but 30 C seems too high to me. That day to night differential seems too wide as well. I prefer a 15 - 20 degree F differential with temps topping out at 80 F max.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Ok, I'm make it 30/16... I was liking that rate... Now.. Just for the notes... The water uptake by the plant have also decreased considerably... Maybe from 4days in flowering (5 gal bucket) to 5-6 days... I was worrying about roots problems and diseases but I read somewhere as temp go lower does problems also go away since at those cold temps nothing can really develop as well down there... Is this correct?


Not sure where you're going with this. All pathogens reproduce, grow and eventually die at different temps and conditions. If you have root rot, there's not much you can do to stop it.

If you have a healthy, big, robust root system, there is not much you can do to over water it and induce root rot.

Starting from the top to bottom of a plant.... water movement throughout a plant is a function of leaf transpiration which induces negative water turgor (lower tissue water pressure) which thru the action of negative pressure and capillary action in the xylem tissues causes a draw across the root's epidermal gradient....bottom to top. Less foliage, lower temps results in more risk for root decline and then plant decline.

UB


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks... I'm set for the day and can keep on doing a few errants with an easy mind.
ill leave this pic here one plant.. UB topping techniqu 4 main colas for all newbies reading.. More info.. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get.html 
Sticky icky


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Thanks... I'm set for the day and can keep on doing a few errants with an easy mind.


Cutting through all the crap, if the pot feels light to the lift, water. If heavy, don't. Contrary to popular forum thought, don't ever let the soil completely go dry. A plant (and it's soil structure) needs to be constantly moist....not wet, moist. 

I see a lot of moans and groans about folks having problems with root rot, something I've never experienced. When you look at the quality of their plant's overall profile, it sucks. Little foliage suggests a poor root system....it just feeds on itself. 

See my avatar? That plant had so much plant material, fan leafs and bud leaves and such, that even 2 quarts of water per day didn't phase it. That's just how much water was transpiring from the leaves as it was being drawn up from its root system. That's what you want. That's what plants crave (other than Brawndo.)


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's not too low (for night temps) as long as you understand that temps dictate growth rate, all things aside. The lower the day/night temps are, the slower the plant will develop. And herein lies the fallacy, what's not told, when seedbanks claim one of their mutts will finish within a certain time frame. Of course they are telling the consumer what they want to hear in order to make a fast buck.
> 
> I'm all about tweeks, to the Nth degree and one of those is optimizing the garden's temperature. 30/17C, day/night, is just about right for optimum growth rates. A bit lower during flowering which follows a natural plant cycle in nature. And you know me, I'm all about doing what mama natur tells me do.
> 
> UB


Seems as though your buddy George disagrees. Who's right?! My world is shattered! Nooooooooo!!!!


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Cutting through all the crap, if the pot feels light to the lift, water. If heavy, don't. Contrary to popular forum thought, don't ever let the soil completely go dry. A plant (and it's soil structure) needs to be constantly moist....not wet, moist.
> 
> I see a lot of moans and groans about folks having problems with root rot, something I've never experienced. When you look at the quality of their plant's overall profile, it sucks. Little foliage suggests a poor root system....it just feeds on itself.
> 
> See my avatar? That plant had so much plant material, fan leafs and bud leaves and such, that even 2 gallons of water per day didn't phase it. That's just how much water was transpiring from the leaves as it was being drawn up from its root system. That's what you want. That's what plants crave (other than Brawndo.)


I think I fucked up something... I was trying to get rid of the gnats a few weeks go and I placed some sand...a bout 1/4 inch on top... Got rid of the gnats but after some watering.. It looked like the soil compacted and water intake decreased(soil aeration). But at the same time temps and flowering took place... Anyways I have tones of root at top so I removed as much sand I could without damaging roots but oh well... Plants are not doing too too bad... Next grow will be better... Unless you have something in mind


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Seems as though your buddy George disagrees. Who's right?! My world is shattered! Nooooooooo!!!!
> 
> View attachment 2496752View attachment 2496750


What in the hell is your problem? Go tell your story to an AA group.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What in the hell is your problem? Go tell your story to an AA group.


I don't have a problem. I was simply correcting your misinformation..yet again. Sigh..


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I think I fucked up something... I was trying to get rid of the gnats a few weeks go and I placed some sand...a bout 1/4 inch on top... Got rid of the gnats but after some watering.. It looked like the soil compacted and water intake decreased(soil aeration). But at the same time temps and flowering took place... Anyways I have tones of root at top so I removed as much sand I could without damaging roots but oh well... Plants are not doing too too bad... Next grow will be better... Unless you have something in mind


I did that one time too. Yes, it makes aeration to the roots a challenge. Since I switched from potting soil mixes to coco/perlite I haven't seen any gnats at all. Also, it's very difficult to overwater with coco/perlite, so you can feed every day. Plants like fresh nutes.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I did that one time too. Yes, it makes aeration to the roots a challenge. Since I switched from potting soil mixes to coco/perlite I haven't seen any gnats at all. Also, it's very difficult to overwater with coco/perlite, so you can feed every day. Plants like fresh nutes.


No fucking way... You talking about god-like Diaz? What did you do with him? He would have had removed root hairs and triple his yield.. Common... He wrote 4 books about it... He is a master gardener.

Ps. While holding his sons with his right hand


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 25, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I did that one time too. Yes, it makes aeration to the roots a challenge. Since I switched from potting soil mixes to coco/perlite I haven't seen any gnats at all. Also, it's very difficult to overwater with coco/perlite, so you can feed every day. Plants like fresh nutes.
> ...


Just trying to help you dude. I've been where you are and overcame it. You don't want my help? It really doesn't matter to me. Your biases are blinding you my friend. Also, I never said if my kids were boys or girls now did I? 

I just proved a few posts back (not the first time either) that Uncle Ben can be wrong. Let the truth enlighten your mind my brother.

I never said I was perfect, but I am a very good BS detector.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 26, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Just trying to help you dude. I've been where you are and overcame it. You don't want my help? It really doesn't matter to me. Your biases are blinding you my friend. Also, I never said if my kids were boys or girls now did I?
> 
> I just proved a few posts back (not the first time either) that Uncle Ben can be wrong. Let the truth enlighten your mind my brother.
> 
> I never said I was perfect, but I am a very good BS detector.


you don't seem to get anything.. Quit elaborating shit to prove a point.. I don't care if you have sons.. daughters.. a wooden leg... You seem to think people can't see the way you do things... Nobody is looking at UB as a a perfect thing. However, he is a solid point of reference... Honestly... This is stupid... Have a good life sir.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I just proved a few posts back (not the first time either) that Uncle Ben can be wrong. Let the truth enlighten your mind my brother.


The only thing you've proven is that you're a cyber stalking troll, a nutjob.

You need to read my basics. You might learn something about temperatures and other cultural factors. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers.html Noticed I made a genotype _distinction_ by using the term 'hybrid', aka mutt?

And for the record, you sat there like some confrontational loon fishing in whatever source you might have, a book, the internet, your boyfriend's chest tattoo.....for some piece that just might contradict what I wrote. As usual, you twisted, took the temp recommendation out of context as the author applied it in general. So, we're both correct (Jorge and me)...... not that it matters - gardening is a matter of using common sense. Point being, sativas are indigenous to hot equatorial regions and I've grown plenty of pure sativas - Dalat Vietnamese, Zamal, Oaxacan Mexican, Original Haze to know that they prefer day temps at 85F or more. I'd say a good day range for an Oaxacan Mexican or Vietnamese sativa is 80F to 95F with a drop in temp at night from 10 - 25F. My O. Haze, a pure sativa hybrid, enjoyed summer day temps of 90 - 105F last year. A pure indica may have stressed out.

Like I said, get some help. You're obsessed.

UB


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 26, 2013)

pj diaz said:


> i usually do keep it to myself. My point is, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about on that point, which would lead me to believe the same for most of your silly statements.
> 
> Fyi, i'm only responding to you for my personal amusement. It's funny.


extremely!!


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## keebo3000 (Jan 26, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> No fucking way... You talking about god-like Diaz? What did you do with him? He would have had removed root hairs and triple his yield.. Common... He wrote 4 books about it... He is a master gardener.
> 
> Ps. While holding his sons with his right hand


funny is funny but children should be off limits IMO.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've grown plenty of pure sativas - Dalat Vietnamese, Zamal, Oaxacan Mexican, Original Haze to know that they prefer day temps at 85F or more. I'd say a good day range for an Oaxacan Mexican or Vietnamese sativa is 80F to 95F with a drop in temp at night from 10 - 25F. My O. Haze, a pure sativa hybrid, enjoyed summer day temps of 90 - 105F last year. A pure indica may have stressed out.
> 
> UB


so what you are saying, if im reading correctly, is that your experience with sativas goes against something documented? hmm very interesting.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 26, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> funny is funny but children should be off limits IMO.


Exactly.. That's my whole sarcasm about... You don't bring that stuff online tob back up your ego, but don't worry in a few more days he'll deny... Probablyv erase the thread and claim he never did like he does... This guy is a farce


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 26, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> removed


Lmao, I only read the first sentence tho... Anyways, firstly.. Again.. Keep it for yourself, not interested. Second.. Like I said you don't fool anyone, I was beggining to grow when I saw you stalking down ub on all his threads.. That's why I laugh at you.. So delusional.. People here have experties besides growing pot... But let's not elevate ourselfs with egocentric bs... Its pathetic that it have to get to this point lol... Step out of your gardenss.. I think you forgot how to interact with people... Or maybe you think your words outsmart everyone... Ofv course, you are on top of the game I forgot


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 26, 2013)

Anyways lol, UB keep on doing your thing.. Educated people apopreciate the free consultation with your expertise, I do not do that in what I do... So is nice to see you are paying it back somehow.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 26, 2013)

Btw UB plants were drinking really good at 30.5c.... Night time is another story... But I can't tell now cuz of the sand for sure... I'll guess I'll wait till next grow but plants seems to be loving the crazy drops of temperature..


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 26, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> ^^this guy knows what's up^^
> 
> *You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sheik yerbouti again.*


Haha I got them same message!


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 26, 2013)

sheik yerbouti said:


> Thats like me saying "you think god put those nice branches on your apple tree's for you to just prune them off?" silly arguement, we manipulate plants in all sorts of ways to get what we want out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Science provides proof and an explanation for just about everything in this world...The only thing I can think of in life that doesn't relate to science is religion.
People prove things with science.....You can't prove anything without science man 

Everything that we're doing here goes back to science....You might think you're just experimenting....but the results you find are do to the science behind the experiment.
I think Unc is just ON ONE.....And hes sticking to his guns....Oh well...that's him man...

But the proof of EVERYTHING lies in it's science.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> The only thing you've proven is that you're a cyber stalking troll, a nutjob.
> 
> You need to read my basics. You might learn something about temperatures and other cultural factors. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers.html Noticed I made a genotype _distinction_ by using the term 'hybrid', aka mutt?
> 
> ...


When you get SO good at something sometimes....I guess it's hard to feel like your NOT GOD...
Its just a little difficult for me to understand why you'd rather argue about everything versus debate about em....

There isn't one way man. If there was there wouldn't be a need for this forum....And there would be A GUIDE to growing cannabis....Not guides with guides in them! And more guides on top of that...
I'm a survivor in general....
And survivors adapt. 

That's FACT.....Not Opinon.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> The only thing you've proven is that you're a cyber stalking troll, a nutjob.
> 
> You need to read my basics. You might learn something about temperatures and other cultural factors. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers.html Noticed I made a genotype _distinction_ by using the term 'hybrid', aka mutt?
> 
> ...



Those aren't YOUR basics....They're some of THE basics....
Some things seems like they might be....But nahh


----------



## sheik yerbouti (Jan 26, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Science provides proof and an explanation for just about everything in this world...The only thing I can think of in life that doesn't relate to science is religion.
> People prove things with science.....You can't prove anything without science man
> 
> Everything that we're doing here goes back to science....You might think you're just experimenting....but the results you find are do to the science behind the experiment.
> ...


Ya I get that, I'm a believer in science as well, but the point I'm trying to make is that science can't explain everything and is proven wrong all the time, world was flat ect ect.... I do agree science proves and explains a lot when it come to growing cannabis but when a scientific article on corn or cowpeas grown outside is brought up to prove something about my indoor plants is redundant and useless. It doesn't tell me shit as cannabis is a very special plant and doesn't compare to other crops the same. Bring up a scientific article on cannabis grown inside and I will be interested.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> so what you are saying, if im reading correctly, is that your experience with sativas goes against something documented? hmm very interesting.


You are not reading or comprehending "correctly".

Try again, perhaps you'll get it one of these days.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 26, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't bother you in your other threads do I? (yet -- don't tempt me)


Of course not.



PJ Diaz said:


> Shit, we really trolled it up this time.


https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-17.html[/quote]

Busted!



> That reference took me literally 2 minutes to find, because I already KNEW you were wrong, as you often are. Who grows pure hazes indoors?


I do. Grow a pair.



> Get the fuck outta here dude. 99% of what we grow indoors are mutts. Stop comparing outdoor grown to indoor. Frankly it's just stupid.


I've grown pure sativas indoors for years and journaled every one of them - Dalat, Zamal, O. Haze.

Don't worry, one of these days a pup like you might run with the big dogs. But......

....I doubt it. 

Bendejo Perro Grande


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 26, 2013)

Originally Posted by *Bud Brewer*  
*Here are some studies 

The predictions of these three models were tested on the tree Brosimum alicastrum and the liana Vitis tiliifolia. 
Seedlings were subjected to three levels of experimental defoliation (0%, 50% and 90% leaf removal) along a light resource gradient (1%, 9% and 65% of full sun). 
In both species, defoliation significantly increased leaf production rate and relative growth rate of leaf area, but not of biomass.



Uncle Ben said:



Fine, I already stated that a plant will try to replace that which it knows should be there. I found that out when I severly defoliated some Mexican many years ago. So, why bother? There were so many factors stated in your references that they can't transpose to what we're doing. For starts, I know of no one growing a water stressed plant, under drought conditions, like you cited with the cotton crop. For starts, cotton is more like okra. Cannabis is more like tomatoes. 





Originally Posted by Bud Brewer  
SUMMARY

Different patterns of dry-matter accumulation in various plant parts was observed. Silking was delayed by increasing plant density. Defoliation (even partial) 
at the 16th fully expanded leaf stage resulted in substantial reduction in LAI and such yield components as number of ears, ear length, ear diameter and 
1000-grain weight. 



Uncle Ben said:



Monocot versus a dicot. Silks, ears, oh my!

Click to expand...

You forgot the important second missing part of the last quote http://journals.cambridge.org/action...21859600062043

1000-grain weight. On the other hand, partial defoliation done at the 10th fully expanded leaf stage to simulate an erectophile canopy led to yield increases 
even under high plant density (90000 plants/ha) in the Kharif (rainy season), mainly through an increase in number of ears, 1000-grain weight and grain to stover 
ratio coupled with a reduction in barrenness and percentage of lodging. It is suggested that an increase in the photosynthetic efficiency per unit area of leaf 
resulting from the erectophile canopy is the reason for these effects.


I'm glad you pointed out the drought study on corn and cotton this could be very helpfull to outdoor growers that can't water there plants in dry conditions it could mean the difference between life or death or a bigger crop if you don't try it you can't know  http://journals.cambridge.org/action...14479703001534

Defoliated cotton plants lost less fruiting forms (squares and young bolls) than non-defoliated plants during water stress. Therefore, under water stress the 
harvestable product of cotton plants with 67% defoliation was double that of non-defoliated control plants. In non-defoliated cotton plants, a second flush of 
flowering after release from water-stress permitted further compensatory fruit set and boll harvest. Defoliated plants did not show such levels of compensation. 
Defoliation significantly reduced water use by maize and cotton. The relative yield advantage of defoliated plants under water-stress conditions can be attributed 
to defoliation-induced improvement in water status as reflected in measures of photosynthetic rate and stomatal conductance. Under anticipated drought stress, 
defoliation could be an important management practice to reduce drought-induced yield decrease, but this needs to be tested under field conditions.
 

Click to expand...

*


----------



## Slab (Jan 26, 2013)

Love is all you need.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 26, 2013)

Slab said:


> You guys need to read a study on now to get rooms dialed in lol.


You mean these huge four foot dense repeatedly defoliated bushes 

The fist two are from the January 1 week 4 the second two Jan 10 the last two are my shield I made you can see the dense bushes defoliation brings if done early and repeatedly


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> And for the record, you sat there like some confrontational loon fishing in whatever source you might have, a book, the internet, your boyfriend's chest tattoo.....for some piece that just might contradict what I wrote. As usual, you twisted, took the temp recommendation out of context as the author applied it in general. So, we're both correct (Jorge and me)...... not that it matters - gardening is a matter of using common sense. Point being, sativas are indigenous to hot equatorial regions and I've grown plenty of pure sativas - Dalat Vietnamese, Zamal, Oaxacan Mexican, Original Haze to know that they prefer day temps at 85F or more. I'd say a good day range for an Oaxacan Mexican or Vietnamese sativa is 80F to 95F with a drop in temp at night from 10 - 25F. My O. Haze, a pure sativa hybrid, enjoyed summer day temps of 90 - 105F last year. A pure indica may have stressed out.
> 
> Like I said, get some help. You're obsessed.
> 
> UB





Uncle Ben said:


> I've grown pure sativas indoors for years and journaled every one of them - Dalat, Zamal, O. Haze.


So, you gave him advice on growing a pure sativa when he's growing a 75% indica variety? How is that good advice?


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 26, 2013)

relax please train ur bush lets c every leaf bright in shiny like a perfect world get it figured out how to do it maybe even veg a day less get dialed in and yeah leaves rep bud sites so yeah save veg time cause ur not using ur shit anyway and downsize or grow 1 or few big ass single plants cause even a 600 hundred will only penetrate so deep you fucji n pricks


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 26, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> relax please train ur bush lets c every leaf bright in shiny like a perfect world get it figured out how to do it maybe even veg a day less get dialed in and yeah leaves rep bud sites so yeah save veg time cause ur not using ur shit anyway and downsize or grow 1 or few big ass single plants cause even a 600 hundred will only penetrate so deep you fucji n pricks


OK, will do sir. Is 4 plants under a 600 ok with you?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 26, 2013)

here are my plants week 3 looks bad right? i over did it on purpose to see what would happen. would the plants just die? either way here they are at end of week five....so thats it they seemed to slow down maybe a week and a half behind previous grows


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 26, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> here are my plants week 3View attachment 2497978View attachment 2497979View attachment 2497980 looks bad right? i over did it on purpose to see what would happen. would the plants just die? either way here they are at end of week fiveView attachment 2497982View attachment 2497983View attachment 2497984View attachment 2497985View attachment 2497986View attachment 2497987View attachment 2497988....so thats it they seemed to slow down maybe a week and a half behind previous grows


I was reading a study about plant defence mechanism regarding to leaf damage and there is a peak of fatty acids for an hour an then it slowly decreases.... After 24 hours pretty much everything goes back to normal and I'm assuming plants regenerates leaves to collect more energy... I wouldn't say is worth all the sugars stored and stuff In leaves plus similar results might be obtained by damaging the main vein replicating a herbivorous attack... And maybe others way to damage the plant... But I don't know seems like in the long run if you grow healthy plants you are fucked by defoliating...


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 26, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> here are my plants week 3View attachment 2497978View attachment 2497979View attachment 2497980 looks bad right? i over did it on purpose to see what would happen. would the plants just die? either way here they are at end of week fiveView attachment 2497982View attachment 2497983View attachment 2497984View attachment 2497985View attachment 2497986View attachment 2497987View attachment 2497988....so thats it they seemed to slow down maybe a week and a half behind previous grows


Btw what's their flowering time in those pics? Nvm I just saw its their 6th week


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I was reading a study about plant defence mechanism regarding to leaf damage and there is a peak of fatty acids for an hour an then it slowly decreases.... After 24 hours pretty much everything goes back to normal and I'm assuming plants regenerates leaves to collect more energy... I wouldn't say is worth all the sugars stored and stuff In leaves plus similar results might be obtained by damaging the main vein replicating a herbivorous attack... And maybe others way to damage the plant... But I don't know seems like in the long run if you grow healthy plants you are fucked by defoliating...


maybe...so far im pleased with this experiment.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Btw what's their flowering time in those pics? Nvm I just saw its their 6th week


did you happen to catch the number of budsites and how well the lower ones are doing? if not check it out.. would love your feedback.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I was reading a study about plant defence mechanism regarding to leaf damage and there is a peak of fatty acids for an hour an then it slowly decreases.... After 24 hours pretty much everything goes back to normal and I'm assuming plants regenerates leaves to collect more energy... I wouldn't say is worth all the sugars stored and stuff In leaves plus similar results might be obtained by damaging the main vein replicating a herbivorous attack... And maybe others way to damage the plant... But I don't know seems like in the long run if you grow healthy plants you are fucked by defoliating...


Could you put up the link to that study it seems interesting your right about the plant regenerating leaves to replace what was taken within a few days from the small side branches making them grow much more this is something most people overlook on this topic it makes many more bud sites.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> did you happen to catch the number of budsites and how well the lower ones are doing? if not check it out.. would love your feedback.


No, seems like you got plenty of bud sites... But you know this thing with cannabis is factor dependant and genetics... Im new to this... so let me know how it ends up... As long you happy I guess that's what matters bro


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Could you put up the link to that study it seems interesting your right about the plant regenerating leaves to replace what was taken within a few days from the small side branches making them grow much more this is something most people overlook on this topic it makes many more bud sites.


http://www.plantphysiology.org/content/111/3/797.full.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmonic_acid


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> here are my plants week 3View attachment 2497978View attachment 2497979View attachment 2497980 looks bad right? i over did it on purpose to see what would happen. would the plants just die? either way here they are at end of week fiveView attachment 2497982View attachment 2497983View attachment 2497984View attachment 2497985View attachment 2497986View attachment 2497987View attachment 2497988....so thats it they seemed to slow down maybe a week and a half behind previous grows


No wonder you manually defoliate. You're just beating the plant to what is gonna be its final outcome - fan leaf necrosis. I'm not here to put you down, but those leaves do not look healthy. What foods are you using? Uhhhhh, let me guess. You've been using some "cannabis specific" snake oils like Advanced Shysters or Humboldt that is low in N and too damn high in K. Did I guess it right, get the prize? 

This is what you should aim for - an abundance of medium to dark green, healthy fan leaves. Plants were a couple of weeks prior to harvest. This plant was crammed into my indoor garden with many others, and, guess what kiddies? * Notice the bottom SHADED buds, like 20" down from the top, are FAT and DENSE! * It flies right into the face of your practices and supports the botanical fact that a shaded apple is sum mightee fine eatin'! 



And just for shits and grins, here's an outdoor sativa that was topped for 4 main colas. Those colas are a foot wide, at least. The one in the foreground about 18" wide due to the weight of the buds. And yes, the 4 colas were staked the best I could do.



As an aside, I've been noting my observations for years - noobs (and some veteran gardeners) often embrace the (dysfunctional) romance they have with the minority of gardeners who defoliate. Why? Because they have not yet learned what makes a plant tick, mastered practices required to retain healthy leaves until harvest, so, they spin their shortcomings, sour grapes style, to protect their egos. Simple Psychology 405....

UB


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## woodsmantoker (Jan 27, 2013)

I run flat screens. They fill up. They make shade. The leafs under it die. I remove them before they do. Any questions?


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> You mean these huge four foot dense repeatedly defoliated bushes View attachment 2497886View attachment 2497887View attachment 2497888View attachment 2497889
> 
> The fist two are from the January 1 week 4 the second two Jan 10 the last two are my shield I made you can see the dense bushes defoliation brings if done early and repeatedlyView attachment 2497895View attachment 2497896



those plants will do that will very little " help" from you. You are doing it as a an adjustment not as a method to improve yield.


instead of reflecting the sweet spot I would lower the bulb so that it is shining on the plants.


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## woodsmantoker (Jan 27, 2013)

"It flies right into the face of your practices and supports the botanical fact that a shaded apple is sum mightee fine eatin'!"

I do eat em! Well, juice them rather.  But thats leaf talk, not fruit. I just eat my apples.. 

BTW, my shaded apples do eat well. But my shaded trees makes less of them... 

Apples and Oranges?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

woodsmantoker said:


> I run flat screens. They fill up. They make shade. The leafs under it die. I remove them before they do. Any questions?


I have none, don't really care, but if I was you I'd be trying to understand why I'm losing leaves. In my example on the previous page, do you seen any impending leaf necrosis at the bottom of the plants?

No you don't. Any questions? 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> ....your right about the plant regenerating leaves to replace what was taken within a few days from the small side branches making them grow much more this is something most people overlook on this topic it makes many more bud sites.


I talked it about at least twice in this thread, even stating where the fan leaf output would originate from. Reference my defoliating Mex plants..... I don't see it making any more bud sites. Whether you have an 'old' leaf petiole 90* to a node or you have a re-generated leaf petiole/fan leaf produced in the axis of the node where buds are produced, seems immaterial to me. I'd say that Trainwreck mutt pic I posted has about as much flowering as a plant is gonna get. 

UB


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## keebo3000 (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> No wonder you manually defoliate. You're just beating the plant to what is gonna be its final outcome - fan leaf necrosis. I'm not here to put you down, but those leaves do not look healthy. What foods are you using? Uhhhhh, let me guess. You've been using some "cannabis specific" snake oils like Advanced Shysters or Humboldt that is low in N and too damn high in K. Did I guess it right, get the prize?
> 
> This is what you should aim for - an abundance of medium to dark green, healthy fan leaves. Plants were a couple of weeks prior to harvest. This plant was crammed into my indoor garden with many others, and, guess what kiddies? * Notice the bottom SHADED buds, like 20" down from the top, are FAT and DENSE! * It flies right into the face of your practices and supports the botanical fact that a shaded apple is sum mightee fine eatin'!
> 
> ...


 you have never heard me claim to be anything other than an "experimenting noob" that being said, i like where i am in this grow. do i wish i could keep the leaves greener throughout , of course i do, unfortunately, hasnt happened yet, but as surprisingly and humorous as you might find this.... THIS IS THE GREENEST RUN i've had to this point ... you can't take my joy.. on the road to sucess i feel i've taken a few steps... 


peace,
KB3000


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## woodsmantoker (Jan 27, 2013)

"Do you seen" Past or present bucky? I am loosing ya pal! 

The last page, had several examples my brother, ya gotta get a bit specific with your ol' folks here so we can follow eh? Maybe the pictures you posted? I see a plant that gets light from a revolving source or vis versa. But what I really gather, is that your implying leafs do not die from lack of lighting, and question necrosis which is nutrient related, or the lack there of. This correct?


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Uh oh someone's butt hurt


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## woodsmantoker (Jan 27, 2013)

Leaf removal in my own "Scrog" cultivation, is not a measure taken to ensure "more" of anything.. Strait shoot folks. Take the time to think of what the question really is. Then ask exactly that. Do leafs die from lack of light? Does added light to a bud or leaf surface increase productive potential? Do the surfaces that are going to be exposed, have more potential for photosynthisis than that of which has been removed? At what point is a mature leaf more productive than twice as many imature leafs below it? What parts of the plant assist in photosynthesis? etc. 

What I often see in this argument, is the lack of focus on what other benifits are being achieved that may out weigh not doing it. I agree having an understanding of what the functions of the plant are, assist you best in understanding how to best suit your desires. What I cannot agree with, is that leaf removal is simply snake oil. 

I like 12 inches between my screen and the bucket top. I like my hands and spray bottles etc to fit under it. Simple. Thats the function that I am after. No one can argue that I am better off with the foliage there, without arguing my preferences are unfit. I have a purpose to what I do, and that purpose is served. Ben has a purpose to cutting the top off and training four colas. That purpose is served. I can argue that I didnt loose my top.. Whats it to ya? If you came to learn plant biology or botany, you likely made a mistake in your choice of resources regardless of folks desire to help you here anyways. I tend to see things from the opimists eye however, and believe that the thousand to one correct answer amist a pile of incorrect, is a reflection of how many people want to help. I also tend to believe that I can learn more from a room full of mistakes than I can a book full of correct answers. I were to take someones snake oil, and put it on my wounds, I couldn't blame the person who made the snake oil, or the ones that told me it would help, for it not working or my lack of understanding of why... If I heard about this snake oil however, and did my own research into it, learned that snake venom actually IS used to help people that have been biten by the same type of snake but that rubbing it on wasnt going to do me any good, I have actually learned something from the snake oil and the person who introduced me. 

(no spell check today folks, being educated does not have to mean your not retarded in some way)


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> removed



what????? the main reason why you want to keep the foliage as healthy as possible is so they can collect and *store* as much energy as possible... Nitrogen uptake never stops...


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 27, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Secondly...doesn't anyone know how these plants grow? In flower about the 2-3 week range with all cannabis a metabolical change happens from producing green leaf to flowers. Nitrogen uptake almost comes to a complete stop because they are now producing flowers. It is at this stage that leaf production slows and the plant starts dropping its leaves. Leaving fan leaves after this point only makes the plant use energy towards something other then flower production. Pretty simple to understand.


This is the most unfounded, utter bullshit I have read to date. And is so fucking far off from fact its beyond comical...just confirms UBs statement on passing blame...


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## keebo3000 (Jan 27, 2013)

I wonder what it's like to have groupies.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> ....do i wish i could keep the leaves greener throughout , of course i do, unfortunately, hasnt happened yet, but as surprisingly and humorous as you might find this.... THIS IS THE GREENEST RUN i've had to this point ...


2 observations - (1) you dodged my question and (2) regarding "greenest run" comment, it doesn't surprise me as I'm sure I hit the nail on the head with my educated guess. 

Was willing to help, but I see there's no use trying. (Another reason why I've unsubbed to many RIU threads, including my own. Some just don't get it.)

Good luck,
UB


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

The more i read.... the more i see fucking UB saying.. see mother fuckers... i told you!... here is a read about plant reaction light.. hormones and some other stuff that UB talks about.. http://www.nicholls.edu/biol-ds/Biol156/Lectures/Plant Hormones 2.pdf


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> I wonder what it's like to have groupies.


Protege would be the correct term.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> The more i read.... the more i see fucking UB saying.. see mother fuckers... i told you!... here is a read about plant reaction light.. hormones and some other stuff that UB talks about.. http://www.nicholls.edu/biol-ds/Biol156/Lectures/Plant Hormones 2.pdf


Exactly, and what an excellent, down to earth white paper. Wanna bet not one person here (but you) bookmarks that link for future reference? 

Been talking about those issues for decades.

UB


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Protege would be the correct term.


Nice vernacular. But I think you just became a groupie of mine! lmao


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Nice vernacular. But I think you just became a groupie of mine! lmao


Hahaha male groupie, reminds me of a eunuch .


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

woodsmantoker said:


> But what I really gather, is that your implying leafs do not die from lack of lighting, and question necrosis which is nutrient related, or the lack there of. This correct?


That is correct. You need to give up this forum myth/paradigm. I explained the psychology. Go back a page and open up my Trainwreck. The lower part of the plant is shaded, at least by forum "standards" it is. Do you see ANY leaf yellowing? It's only a couple of weeks from harvest too. 

Here's an outdoors O. haze that got nothing but a 18-4-9 slow release food during its life, March - Nov. I'll try to dig up a photo to show you the lower leafsets. Why did I use such a high N food? Because that's what they wanted (as opposed to forum hearsay or some stupid snake oil vendor's grow chart scripted for noobs...... recommending a bunch of blathering nonsense).





What's amazing is how they came thru daily sustained high winds that always precede our cold fronts. We're talking in the 30's. They just got their asses kicked by mama nature. 7' tall at harvest. 

Try sustaining a pure sativa indoors for 6 - 8 months of its entire life like I did with a Dalat Vietnamese. Now, if I had used the typical nute profile common with most RIU gardeners, they would have been gone by the 4th month. Still lost quite a bit but that sure wasn't because of a lack of light. One plant had a 600W HPS all to herself, plus blinding white side reflectors. (see the attached)


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> The more i read.... the more i see fucking UB saying.. see mother fuckers... i told you!... here is a read about plant reaction light.. hormones and some other stuff that UB talks about.. http://www.nicholls.edu/biol-ds/Biol156/Lectures/Plant%20Hormones%202.pdf


Thanks Elk! Nice find.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> View attachment 2498311View attachment 2498312
> 
> That is correct. Try sustaining a pure sativa indoors for 6 - 8 months of its entire life like I did a Dalat Vietnamese. Now, if I had used the typical nute profile of RIU gardeners, they would have been gone by the 4th month.
> 
> Here's an outdoors O. haze that got nothing but a 18-4-9 slow release food during its life, March - Nov. I'll try to dig up a photo to show you the lower leafsets.


That plant make me so horny, she love you long time g.i. Joe


----------



## RCgrowerman (Jan 27, 2013)

joe blow greenthumb said:


> Misleading......lolipopping cuts off the lowest buds so that is misleading compared to defoliating. Not only that, but others here are saying after lollipop, defoliating etc that the lowest buds grew. Well,.they were getting older so that's misleading as well. If a leaf isn't attached to a bud site then it can be cut without worries. Trim a leaf from a buds base and you're causing the buds to get less because more will be used to repair the site. Think of your skin when you get a cut. It scabs then heals. A plant is the same. I trim nothing above 8-10 nodes at most. Below that point I take the largest leaves that grow from the main stem at each branch. If you do that then the lower buds will push right thru any other leaves in the way.


I am not trying to be misleading I am just saying everything I did to increase density. Had I not told you about the lolipopping and claimed defoliation was the only factor that would be misleading.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> That plant make me so horny, she love you long time g.i. Joe


My Marine cousin Mezohorny agrees.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Exactly, and what an excellent, down to earth white paper. Wanna bet not one person here (but you) bookmarks that link for future reference?
> 
> Been talking about those issues for decades.
> 
> UB


Yeah, who ever wrote it it great. I got the new iPad.. totally wroth it.. it have an application where you can save pdf files n a bookshelf.. i carry it with me all the time.. whenever i'm bored i don't even need online access


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That is correct. You need to give up this forum myth/paradigm. I explained the psychology. Go back a page and open up my Trainwreck. The lower part of the plant is shaded, at least by forum "standards" it is. Do you see ANY leaf yellowing? It's only a couple of weeks from harvest too.
> 
> Here's an outdoors O. haze that got nothing but a 18-4-9 slow release food during its life, March - Nov. I'll try to dig up a photo to show you the lower leafsets. Why did I use such a high N food? Because that's what they wanted (as opposed to forum hearsay or some stupid snake oil vendor's grow chart scripted for noobs...... recommending a bunch of blathering nonsense).
> 
> ...


The last one self defoliated it knew better the first are also defoliating themselves your not making your point


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Yeah, who ever wrote it it great. I got the new iPad.. totally wroth it.. it have an application where you can save pdf files n a bookshelf.. i carry it with me all the time.. whenever i'm bored i don't even need online access


Remember how many posts I've done rebutting the lack-of-light=popcorn-buds drills, what I call a forum paradigm? That paper confirms my position:

*Apical Dominance - the tip of a growing shoot (apical bud) produces auxin that inhibits the growth of lateral buds below the apical bud.*

Again, the top part of the plant is gonna get all the goodies which means it's gonna give it up to the apical areas. That's why I always do a double harvest, "picking the apples as they ripen." Even outdoors I will take out the bulked up colas first and leave the lower part to bulk up some more, coming back in say.....3 weeks to get those buds.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Not only does it hog resources but it cock blocks the other branches, typical broad.


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## keebo3000 (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> No wonder you manually defoliate. You're just beating the plant to what is gonna be its final outcome - fan leaf necrosis. I'm not here to put you down, but those leaves do not look healthy. What foods are you using? Uhhhhh, let me guess. You've been using some "cannabis specific" snake oils like Advanced Shysters or Humboldt that is low in N and too damn high in K. Did I guess it right, get the prize?
> 
> This is what you should aim for - an abundance of medium to dark green, healthy fan leaves. Plants were a couple of weeks prior to harvest. This plant was crammed into my indoor garden with many others, and, guess what kiddies? * Notice the bottom SHADED buds, like 20" down from the top, are FAT and DENSE! * It flies right into the face of your practices and supports the botanical fact that a shaded apple is sum mightee fine eatin'!
> 
> ...


 maybe you should re-read your own post, at which point were you offering any help? at which point did you offer a solution to the necrosis? seems to me you just wanted to blow your own horn, so i stepped back and allowed you to do so. your question, amidst all the befuddlement was a rhetorical one, you know, a question asked when the answer was never really wanted. at the end of the day im learning at my own pace. yes i have jorge's book, ed rosenthal's book and several others, do i grow tomatoes oranges and pineapples? no. does that make me less of a grower? so. i dont care about those things but for some reason, if you go back to all the (unsolicited by the way) rude and out of place comments you've made to me, they have all included some reference to tomatoes or artichokes, i care about growing cannabis better than i am doing now. that is it. if you dont know how to curtail your "advice" to cannabis, then have fun commenting but don't expect me to continually banter away with you.much ado about nothing.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Not only does it hog resources but it cock blocks the other branches, typical broad.


Yeah it does. Did you view the Trainwreck plant profile? Post #1239, https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/521700-fan-leafs-blockers-light-energy-62.html Look at the lower part of the plant. There is actually a broad flare up of intense flowering buds at the bottom. They are actually wider than above. Pretty strange, eh?


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## keebo3000 (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 2 observations - (1) you dodged my question and (2) regarding "greenest run" comment, it doesn't surprise me as I'm sure I hit the nail on the head with my educated guess.
> 
> Was willing to help, but I see there's no use trying. (Another reason why I've unsubbed to many RIU threads, including my own. Some just don't get it.)
> 
> ...


i understand. I mean you have unsubbed from THIS thread twice. just like a herpes you keep coming back.
thank you. goodbye


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> maybe you should re-read your own post, at which point were you offering any help?


By asking you a simple question regarding the foods you used which would have resulted in a followup.

Look, go about your business and good luck. I'm through with you.

Uncle Ben


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yeah it does. Did you view the Trainwreck plant profile? Post #1239, https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/521700-fan-leafs-blockers-light-energy-62.html Look at the lower part of the plant. There is actually a broad flare up of intense flowering buds at the bottom. They are actually wider than above. Pretty strange, eh?


i favor the sweet tooth in that 'cross breeding' . In the wild the tops fall over, that bitch got great jeans lol. The waxy leaves are a protective response? I have them on some of my girls now, along with cupping over.

researched the net, found a post of yours from 2005. Goodonya.

got something to share with you ganja farmers, thought press releases might be of interest to you guys. http://conference.pasafarming.org/


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> By asking you a simple question regarding the foods you used which would have resulted in a followup.
> 
> Look, go about your business and good luck. I'm through with you.
> 
> Uncle Ben


 this is how a person who REALLY wants to helps sounds " hey man you got a necrosis, thats comes from Mg deficiency, you should XYZ to fix it" what you and other cyber-bully's like to do is make others feel low, to bring yourself up, hence the picture, no knowledge to pass on just a "my dick is bigger than yours" picture
perhaps suggesting a different food choice for the plants, im almost positive even neanderthals have some manners when addressing strangers.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> i favor the sweet tooth in that 'cross breeding' . In the wild the tops fall over, that bitch got great jeans lol. The waxy leaves are a protective response? I have them on some of my girls now, along with cupping over.
> 
> researched the net, found a post of yours from 2005. Goodonya.
> 
> got something to share with you ganja farmers, thought press releases might be of interest to you guys. http://conference.pasafarming.org/


The Trainwreck X Sweettooth#4 cross I grew was gifted to me by a friend many years ago. It is easy to grow, bulks up well, has a longer flowering period than most but only fair potency. Another words, it's a 5 hitter, not a 2. The dark green leaves came from blood meal plus other stuff I guess.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> this is how a person who REALLY wants to helps sounds " hey man you got a necrosis, thats comes from Mg deficiency, you should XYZ to fix it" what you and other cyber-bully's like to do is make others feel low, to bring yourself up, hence the picture, no knowledge to pass on just a "my dick is bigger than yours" picture
> perhaps suggesting a different food choice for the plants, im almost positive even neanderthals have some manners when addressing strangers.


Don't preach to me boy. I tried to help, you don't want it and that's OK. 



Me said:


> I'm not here to put you down, but those leaves do not look healthy. What foods are you using? Uhhhhh, let me guess. You've been using some "cannabis specific" snake oils like Advanced Shysters or Humboldt that is low in N and too damn high in K. Did I guess it right, get the prize?


And you STILL dodge the question LOL.

Gawd, are we a nation of whiners and over sensitive neurotics or what?


----------



## woodsmantoker (Jan 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> This is the most unfounded, utter bullshit I have read to date. And is so fucking far off from fact its beyond comical...just confirms UBs statement on passing blame...




ROLLITUP: We need the ability to change accidental "likes".... Sorry fella (OP), I was not concuring with Alexander, and sorry to Alexander for the false hope. A.S. man, your responce would lead folks to believe you have not been around these parts much  Keep reading!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 27, 2013)

[video=youtube;ZsIuWn1xoYI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsIuWn1xoYI[/video]
And thats all I got to say about that....


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm wondering if defoliation has been presented by any fellow who actually grows in hydroponics.. Seems like abscisic acid presence its greater diminished by the amount of water roots drive into the plant. Which means... the healthier your root system is.. the less the effect of inhibiting growth from this hormone in our buds.


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## unknown1231 (Jan 27, 2013)

jeez this thread is killing me.

Riddle me this batman... when I put my hand up to block the sign from my eyes is it a light blocker? Uh kinda, but the light is still hitting my arm so my body is still producing vitamin D.... Same thing with the plants!!! Now someone please close this thread!


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> those plants will do that will very little " help" from you. You are doing it as a an adjustment not as a method to improve yield.
> 
> 
> instead of reflecting the sweet spot I would lower the bulb so that it is shining on the plants.


No they wouldn't fill in as dense if I didn't help it create more branches by defoliation your missing the point of doing it in veg because you have never seen the regrowth for yourself.
I got these from a friend who grew them in hydro his were not nearly as dense or as large he didn't do any defoliation during veg just flower.

The bulb is within a foot of the plants the bottom is parallel to the to the average tops below the main cola I have no space to drop it between they are too fat.
I maintain the bulb in the same position relative to the shield the sweet spot I just move it all up as needed it works great. The only problem is to work in there I raise the light and shield to the ceiling and crawl under I got a 3 foot space with everything raised and can stand up.

I could have made it bigger this will be reused for vegging same idea but made into an octagon with the 45 degree top for the nine clones I will be doing defoliation experiments with three as controls I'm willing to sacrifice the loss of yield on those in the name of science. Three will be defoliated every week or two in veg then after stretch and 45 days flowering the last three are not as healthy as the six so they are just going to be single experiments one just defo in veg one just in flower and the other all the time.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

unknown1231 said:


> jeez this thread is killing me.
> 
> Riddle me this batman... when I put my hand up to block the sign from my eyes is it a light blocker? Uh kinda, but the light is still hitting my arm so my body is still producing vitamin D.... Same thing with the plants!!! Now someone please close this thread!


Just when I present real world facts AND back them up with photos of real world plants someone comes along and wants to have it closed? 

Actually, this thread should be pinned so that the next lazy mother fuckin' noob who doesn't lurk first or know how to do a search on defoliation, lollipopping and other stupid butchering practices can refer to it easily. 

Recommend you un-subscribe, like I did before.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

woodsmantoker said:


> ROLLITUP: We need the ability to change accidental "likes".... Sorry fella (OP), I was not concuring with Alexander, and sorry to Alexander for the false hope. A.S. man, your responce would lead folks to believe you have not been around these parts much  Keep reading!


..and furthermore, you could let us know if this thread should still be stickied or not: https://www.rollitup.org/support/47767-attention-users-will-not-tolerated.html


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 27, 2013)

woodsmantoker said:


> ROLLITUP: We need the ability to change accidental "likes".... Sorry fella (OP), I was not concuring with Alexander, and sorry to Alexander for the false hope. A.S. man, your responce would lead folks to believe you have not been around these parts much  Keep reading!


Same place you clicked to like. It is unlike now, just click again. Noobs need to pay attention....


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

unknown1231 said:


> jeez this thread is killing me.
> 
> Riddle me this batman... when I put my hand up to block the sign from my eyes is it a light blocker? Uh kinda, but the light is still hitting my arm so my body is still producing vitamin D.... Same thing with the plants!!! Now someone please close this thread!


Good analogy, I remember doing that as a child. The sun easily travels through the meat and skin. Just not bone

We actually get some good learn'n going on, once the revenge posts subside.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Recommend you unsubcribe, like I did before.


What does that mean that you unsubscribe? 

You always seem to come right back anyway. We already know how you feel anyway.

Go ahead and unsubscribe for the 14th time. It makes no difference, because you'll be right back later. Silly man.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Same place you clicked to like. It is unlike now, just click again. Noobs need to pay attention....


Noobs? Wait a sec.. Don't you only have one harvest under your belt? WTF?


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/366/27.full
here this is what i was just reading... which i hate to say but (cuz is funny).. UB point of view regarding not letting your soil dry... ever...


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> ....I'm willing to sacrifice the loss of yield on those in the name of science. Three will be defoliated every week or two in veg then after stretch and 45 days flowering the last three are not as healthy as the six so they are just going to be single experiments one just defo in veg one just in flower and the other all the time.


Who is the independent, non partisan, scientific community that is gonna dictate proper empirical procedures for setup and data collection and monitor and control your day to day activities? Will you be weighing flowering plant parts and exactly how will you determine where to start cutting and where to finish and at what moisture content?

If you want to see for yourself, fine, more power to you, keeping in mind the community is still left with anecdotal evidence and a predisposition to have an outcome of what we want or expect to see.

Good luck,
UB


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yeah it does. Did you view the Trainwreck plant profile? Post #1239, https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/521700-fan-leafs-blockers-light-energy-62.html Look at the lower part of the plant. There is actually a broad flare up of intense flowering buds at the bottom. They are actually wider than above. Pretty strange, eh?


That is because the bottom branches are longer so are getting some direct light the ones just above it aren't so they don't get as big or frosty or dark they are less mature from lack of light despite their apical dominance you continue to prove yourself wrong.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

unknown1231 said:


> jeez this thread is killing me.
> 
> Riddle me this batman... when I put my hand up to block the sign from my eyes is it a light blocker? Uh kinda, but the light is still hitting my arm so my body is still producing vitamin D.... Same thing with the plants!!! Now someone please close this thread!


Walk around with a light blocking glove on one hand for a week. At the end of the week take off the glove. Notice anything different?


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 27, 2013)

[video=youtube;6eISPP6zuNE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eISPP6zuNE[/video]
Thanks for the tune Uncle Ted...


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> No they wouldn't fill in as dense if I didn't help it create more branches by defoliation your missing the point of doing it in veg because you have never seen the regrowth for yourself.
> I got these from a friend who grew them in hydro his were not nearly as dense or as large he didn't do any defoliation during veg just flower.
> 
> The bulb is within a foot of the plants the bottom is parallel to the to the average tops below the main cola I have no space to drop it between they are too fat.
> ...


There are plenty of growers here that get plants that bushy, without defoliation. I have gotten 118 colas on one plant, what I found was there just wasn't even enough hormones to drive that much flowering. You have some beautiful plants brewer, I did delete that room dialed in comment because it was inflammatory.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Really? You've been reduced to trolling this thread and insulting your fellow members. Real cool dude, real cool.


His post opened with calling uncle Ben an idiot.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the plants respond adversely when removing leaves, depending on how and when you do it. 
Basing that of experimenting and evidence...
I left one of my plants untouched and I just to see what might happen...And I'll be doing the same for a few grows!

This thread is a *HELL OF A THREAD!*

*MAYBEEEE...JUST MAYBEEEEE*......One of us can get a plant to do something none of us knew about by removing leaves in a specific manner.
It's just up to us to experiment


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> I'm becoming more and more convinced that the plants respond adversely when removing leaves, depending on how and when you do it.
> Basing that of experimenting and evidence...
> I left one of my plants untouched and I just to see what might happen...And I'll be doing the same for a few grows!
> 
> ...


I definitely agree that done inappropriately it can set you back. IMO, done just after the initial flowering stretch and then again two weeks before harvest gives positive results. It's not gonna double your yield or anything, but it's not gonna hurt anything either.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/366/27.full
> here this is what i was just reading... which i hate to say but (cuz is funny).. UB point of view regarding not letting your soil dry... ever...


You are well on your way to becoming a Master Gardener. Good on ya for the research from credible sources!

BTW, another way to look at production potential and plant health as it relates to any kind of plant tissue is by measuring the amount of chlorophyll, and of course when you cut off a healthy very green leaf, you're removed valuable chlorophyll. If it's replaced 100% of leaves or more, you're fine other than stunting the plant or stressing it bit.

Now.....check this out, a frickin' chlorophyll meter which measures the health of your plants! Greener=more chlorophyll=healthier plant. This is what you call a real Bendejo tweek, hah!
http://www.agriculturesolutions.com/Chlorophyll-Meters/View-all-products.html?gclid=CIO_0aaHibUCFSmCQgodizsAEg

I bet I could send the needle right through the lens on that Trainwreck cross.


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## woodsmantoker (Jan 27, 2013)

"Leaves dont die from lack of light" - Buck. 


I wont beg to differ. 

I dont "need" to anything.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Not to anyone that didn't come half stepping.

he did call me delusional, I got heated. oversensitive .You guys need to stop embracing the inner bitch in you.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Not to anyone that didn't come half stepping.
> 
> he did call me delusional, I got heated. oversensitive .You guys need to stop embracing the inner bitch in you.


There's a difference between calling someone delusional and a mother fucker. Does half-stepping make profane insults ok? I thought this guy was trying to get his phd. Surely he knows some more creative and less derogatory words to choose from.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That is because the bottom branches are longer so are getting some direct light....


Say what? The bottom branches are under the branches of the sistas they're crammed up against.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Not to anyone that didn't come half stepping.
> 
> he did call me delusional, I got heated. oversensitive .You guys need to stop embracing the inner bitch in you.


Didn't know you were a mod. I wasn't being fascecious when I recommended pinning this thread. There are too damn many threads regarding defoliation practices IMO.

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> No wonder you manually defoliate. You're just beating the plant to what is gonna be its final outcome - fan leaf necrosis. I'm not here to put you down, but those leaves do not look healthy. What foods are you using? Uhhhhh, let me guess. You've been using some "cannabis specific" snake oils like Advanced Shysters or Humboldt that is low in N and too damn high in K. Did I guess it right, get the prize?
> 
> This is what you should aim for - an abundance of medium to dark green, healthy fan leaves. Plants were a couple of weeks prior to harvest. This plant was crammed into my indoor garden with many others, and, guess what kiddies? * Notice the bottom SHADED buds, like 20" down from the top, are FAT and DENSE! * It flies right into the face of your practices and supports the botanical fact that a shaded apple is sum mightee fine eatin'!
> 
> ...


That bud is only 20 inches down and isn't really shaded at all but your leaves are curling bad to much nitrogen.
The sativas are airie and leafy and losing lots of leaves those aren't dense buds but I appreciate sativas my favorite smoke.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

You can say far far more hurtful things without using profanity. 

It's just guy talk, he doesn't complain when you cus at him.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> There's a difference between calling someone delusional and a mother fucker. Does half-stepping make profane insults ok? I thought this guy was trying to get his phd. Surely he knows some more creative and less derogatory words to choose from.


Look, I usually ignore you but this spin needs to be cleared up. I'm direct, sometimes coming across as abrasive to others who wear their feelings on their sleeve, are thin skinned. You're passive-aggressive, using sideways anger to manipulate and control. I find you just a abrasive in a game playing manner.

Now, do we understand each other? If you want the real deal, I'll give it to you. If you want spin, then suggest you back out of RIU and go watch some MSNBC.

UB


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Look, I usually ignore you but this spin needs to be cleared up. I'm direct, sometimes coming across as abrasive to others who wear their feelings on their sleeve, are thin skinned. You're passive-aggressive, using sideways anger to manipulate and control. I find you just a abrasive in a game playing manner.
> 
> Now, do we understand each other? If you want the real deal, I'll give it to you. If you want spin, then suggest you back out of RIU and go watch some MSNBC.
> 
> UB


I'm happy to play by either rules. I just need to know what they are. You wanna have a "fuck you fest". OK, I'm pretty good at that too. Seems silly and polarizing though. 

I've never been called passive-aggressive however. If anything I'm aggressive-aggressive. The people I work with don't have to wonder what I think, because I tell them. They might not like what I say, but they respect me for being willing to say it to their faces.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> You can say far far more hurtful things without using profanity.
> 
> It's just guy talk, he doesn't complain when you cus at him.


To be honest, I don't really care what he says to me. My skin is pretty tough. My problem is when he attacks others, and runs people away. It's pretty lame. I'll be the zorro on weed for those people.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Didn't know you were a mod. I wasn't being fascecious when I recommended pinning this thread. There are too damn many threads regarding defoliation practices IMO.
> 
> UB


Are you being a prick? Lol


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Are you being a prick? Lol


You wouldn't expect anything less would you?


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

I think it is a clever way of telling me to butt out.


ah ok I got it, I said I deleted a post that was inflammatory, It was my own post that I deleted Uncle Ben.

you see how that over sensitive shite gets in the way lol


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Who is the independent, non partisan, scientific community that is gonna dictate proper empirical procedures for setup and data collection and monitor and control your day to day activities? Will you be weighing flowering plant parts and exactly how will you determine where to start cutting and where to finish and at what moisture content?
> 
> If you want to see for yourself, fine, more power to you, keeping in mind the community is still left with anecdotal evidence and a predisposition to have an outcome of what we want or expect to see.
> 
> ...


The forum will be the independent, non partisan, scientific community that is gonna dictate proper empirical procedures for setup and data collection and monitor and control your day to day activities
They will all be around a 400 watt fed the same homemade organic foods same new soil mix its been cooking for a monththey will be treated equally the difference in grow pattern will be obvious.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You are well on your way to becoming a Master Gardener. Good on ya for the research from credible sources!
> 
> BTW, another way to look at production potential and plant health as it relates to any kind of plant tissue is by measuring the amount of chlorophyll, and of course when you cut off a healthy very green leaf, you're removed valuable chlorophyll. If it's replaced 100% of leaves or more, you're fine other than stunting the plant or stressing it bit.
> 
> ...


Nice toy.. i haven't get to read more about EC... I been thinking about buying a of tool or two for my next grow... ( i'm not a pro neither do it for a living )so i was thinking what are must to grow a healthy plant... I already have a ph tester (which i have found useless so far **i grow in soil**) soil moisture ( it only confirms that a light pot needs watering **useless** as well).. light meter ( i think ill pass on that ).. but i was thinking an EC meter.. yet i have to read more.. care to share a little bit more about growing tools and some info man


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> I think it is a clever way of telling me to butt out.
> 
> 
> ah ok I got it, I said I deleted a post that was inflammatory, It was my own post that I deleted Uncle Ben.
> ...


You lost me. I never directed anything at you other than to recommend this be pinned.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> There are plenty of growers here that get plants that bushy, without defoliation. I have gotten 118 colas on one plant, what I found was there just wasn't even enough hormones to drive that much flowering. You have some beautiful plants brewer, I did delete that room dialed in comment because it was inflammatory.


Some do most don't It can be strain dependent some don't branch much without help your 118 buds was probably done on a scrog another way to create more branches but you need the roots and food to feed them dial it in there are many ways to grow these plants.

I prefer big bushes in big containers and lots of branches that i get by defoliating in veg.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> The forum will be the independent, non partisan, scientific community that is gonna dictate proper empirical procedures for setup and data collection and monitor and control your day to day activities


I rest my case LOL.

Here's a defoliating mofo with a 20 post count, criticising my garden, telling me this forum is 'scientific' and will be the determining factor for his "experiment" yet to be seen ? 

Hah, gotta luv this community!


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You lost me. I never directed anything at you other than to recommend this be pinned.


pardon me for that, just a miscommunication. 

I am not a mod.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I rest my case LOL.


Thank goodness. I assume that means you're finally done posting in this thread.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Nice toy.. i haven't get to read more about EC... I been thinking about buying a of tool or two for my next grow... ( i'm not a pro neither do it for a living )so i was thinking what are must to grow a healthy plant... I already have a ph tester (which i have found useless so far **i grow in soil**) soil moisture ( it only confirms that a light pot needs watering **useless** as well).. light meter ( i think ill pass on that ).. but i was thinking an EC meter.. yet i have to read more.. care to share a little bit more about growing tools and some info man


Don't pass on a light meter, it will make for some nice logistical tweeks. Make sure it registers to at least 10K f.c. Hold it up to within 6" of a 600HPS and tell me what you get haha. I bought a new one off ebay, cheap. That was after my 30 year old one crapped out. I ran a garden average of 4,000 - 6,500 f.c. registered near plant tops.

UB


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

@ bud brewer.

There is a best practice , with some tweaks yes.

it was outdoor and I super cropped, in a very large container called the earth lol.

i had no problems with losing leaf or yellowing.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't pass on a light meter, it will make for some nice logistical tweeks. Make sure it registers to at least 10K f.c. Hold it up to within 6" of a 600HPS and tell me what you get haha. I bought a new one off ebay, cheap. That was after my 30 year old one crapped out. I ran a garden average of 4,000 - 6,500 f.c. registered near plant tops.
> 
> UB


Sounds fair. Which brand you bought? Btw what about an EC meter... or do you use any tools to confirm on fertilization output/input?


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I rest my case LOL.
> 
> Here's a guy with a 20 post count, criticising my garden, telling me this forum is somehow scientific and will be the determining factor for his "experiment" yet to be seen?
> 
> Hah, gotta luv RIU.


Post count means little your post count is mostly trolling around insulting people you add little to this thread you prove yourself wrong every few page then unsub for an hour all showing your lack of integrity your plants are not as healthy as you preach I am bang on with what I said. 

I have grown for many years first time in mid 80's my plants are healthier and bigger than anything you have shown.

I will do a good side by side journal for everybody's benefit good or bad I will not cheat anywhere I have Integrity I have no need to insult people I post studys with links I use full quotes not like your edit jobs I don't lie to this board every few pages saying I'm leaving unsubbed when you get proven wrong time and time again.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't pass on a light meter, it will make for some nice logistical tweeks. Make sure it registers to at least 10K f.c. Hold it up to within 6" of a 600HPS and tell me what you get haha. I bought a new one off ebay, cheap. That was after my 30 year old one crapped out. I ran a garden average of 4,000 - 6,500 f.c. registered near plant tops.
> 
> UB


Totally agree on the light meter. I use a cheap one from Ebay too, that measures up to 20,000 ft candle: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Lux-Meter-200-000-LUX-LCD-LAB-PHOTO-LX1330B-/170645283637?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bb406335


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 27, 2013)

woodsmantoker said:


> "Leaves dont die from lack of light" - Buck.
> 
> 
> I wont beg to differ.
> ...


Then *why* have I read in so many other places that it happens?


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> @ bud brewer.
> 
> There is a best practice , with some tweaks yes.
> 
> ...



It probably just needed more time to finish growing in the north it is a problem what strains have finished for you?


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Athens Cush aka green crack and c4 both early finishers, and it is elementary that a longer flower would yield more.

I know these strains very well, what I have Learned is that it is not wise to do anything to take away from resin production.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Athens Cush aka green crack and c4 both early finishers, and it is elementary that a longer flower would yield more.
> 
> I know these strains very well, what I have Learned is that it is not wise to do anything to take away from resin production.


I just finished my first run with Cush, pulled around 50 days. It's good, but not quite as great as I hoped. It just started the cure, so hopefully it gets better. I did run an experimental nute profile on that plant, which affected other plants I also ran the nute profile with in a lackluster fashion.

I only ran one plant of it, surrounded by many others of a different strains, and didn't top that one, defoil or anything -- only removed the bottom few shoots. The strain branches very nicely on it's own, but I'm thinking that I'm going to do some training on the next run with it. The yield was ok, but nothing to write home about -- just under 40g from two weeks veg. I'm thinking with another week or two the 3 zip mark should be easy enough to hit. I'll shoot for a QP, and be happy with less.

Any suggestions on growing that strain? It would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Then *why* have I read in so many other places that it happens?


Why are you baiting Uncle Ben? We ready know what he's gonna say: "It's because of all the noobs and internet trolls who don't care to take the time to understand how a plant functions, and then spread misinformation all over the internet. Take a look at my thread on gardening tips and tweaks and maybe you can get your head out of your ass."

I mean really, he's quite predictable.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I just finished my first run with Cush, pulled around 50 days. It's good, but not quite as great as I hoped. It just started the cure, so hopefully it gets better. I did run an experimental nute profile on that plant, which affected other plants I also ran the nute profile with in a lackluster fashion.
> 
> I only ran one plant of it, surrounded by many others of a different strains, and didn't top that one, defoil or anything -- only removed the bottom few shoots. The strain branches very nicely on it's own, but I'm thinking that I'm going to do some training on the next run with it. The yield was ok, but nothing to write home about -- just under 40g from two weeks veg. I'm thinking with another week or two the 3 zip mark should be easy enough to hit. I'll shoot for a QP, and be happy with less.
> 
> Any suggestions on growing that strain? It would be appreciated. Thanks.


Not far off with the yeild, couple ounces is all she gives flowered at a foot tall. 

With these short flowering strains, there is just no time to pack on weight.

I would try and lengthen the flowering time, and have that early flower vigor last longer. It's two weeks about, the stretch I remember.


if you ease it into flowering instead of direct to 12/12 I think that will get yeild up. 

People beg for this strain, wish I had it still.

It's been around since the early 90's, Athens Ohio if anyone was wondering the origin.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Not far off with the yeild, couple ounces is all she gives flowered at a foot tall.
> 
> With these short flowering strains, there is just no time to pack on weight.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I appreciate the advice from a grower with hands on experience. +rep. Unless I do a run of all Cush, a slow transition to 12/12 might be tricky, and I'm not confident enough with the strain yet to do that. I just love my G13Haze so much -- a pungent punch in the nose of lemon yougert, yum!

I know the history on the strain, but just recently got a hold of it, so threw it in flowering real quick just to see what it could do. I don't like to invest much time in a new strain until I get an idea of what it produces. Out here, most dispensaries call it Dream Queen, which is often confused/mistaked for Space Queen. It's all messed up. At least I THINK that I have the Green Crack.. It does match everything I've read about it, in terms of flowering speed, smell, growth pattern, and yield. 

How long did you typically flower it? I pulled at 50 days of 12/12. I felt like I could have cone another 5 to 7 days, but it didn't really seem totally necessary either. I figured I'd just pull at the recommended time the first time out with it.


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

6 weeks in flood and drain, couple of days less in dwc. Friggn thing seemed be ripening as it was budding.

outdoor was second week of sept.

it's for the Headie not the fetti lol.

yes g13haze is in my top 5 fav, yield, taste and high. Perfected.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> 6 weeks in flood and drain, couple of days less in dwc. Friggn thing seemed be ripening as it was budding.
> 
> outdoor was second week of sept.
> 
> ...


Really 6 weeks? Is that 6 weeks from 12/12? Amazing. I thought 7 was fast.

I have a short flowering pheno of G13H, which is good and bad. The good is I can pull it 55 days. The bad is that means less yield than the 10 week pheno.

@ 45 days:


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## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Haha, I feel your pain. 

Nice looking bud. Used to search for the fastest flowering time, now my peeps look at me sideways when I tell them I wish it would take longer to bud.


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## jack's soil grow (Jan 27, 2013)

you should remove fan leaves that block light getting to nodes as this will increase bud sites and yeild, it does slower the plants growth down a bit but makes it easy to shape a plant with a bit of lst'ing 
you can contral how and plant grows and get the best from it, lot better than topping or fim a plant, just stress the plant out loads and take longer to recover


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Why are you baiting Uncle Ben? We ready know what he's gonna say: "It's because of all the noobs and internet trolls who don't care to take the time to understand how a plant functions, and then spread misinformation all over the internet. Take a look at my thread on gardening tips and tweaks and maybe you can get your head out of your ass."
> 
> I mean really, he's quite predictable.


Look again at who that reply is meant for. Not Uncle Ben.
Woodsmantoker. 
I just want to know why he says what he says.
Wouldn't ask if I knew already


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Sounds fair. Which brand you bought? Btw what about an EC meter... or do you use any tools to confirm on fertilization output/input?


GE 217. No EC meter.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I have grown for many years first time in mid 80's my plants are healthier and bigger than anything you have shown.


Of course, and you also hold an electrical engineering doctorate from MIT, correct?


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> elkukupanda said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds fair. Which brand you bought? Btw what about an EC meter... or do you use any tools to confirm on fertilization output/input?
> ...


You got a 217 for $30? Nice score!


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bud Brewer said:
> 
> 
> > I have grown for many years first time in mid 80's my plants are healthier and bigger than anything you have shown.
> ...


Oh jeeze.. Here he goes again..


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Oh jeeze.. Here he goes again..


While your insatiable obsession to troll me never stops.

Yep, "here he goes again".


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Beny this isn't your thread you are the one trolling a thread you know nothing about with no experince you never had a leg to stand on .

Your arguments are getting lamer everytime what does a doctorate in electrical engineering have to do with anything I haven't invented a new light system yet you'll be the first to get a prototype it will be the first light to be able to pass light other than a bit of red thru leaves which we have you to thank you were trying to prove that light passes thru leaves and put up a link you didn't read proving almost all the light gets stopped exept a bit of infered. 

I do have to thank you everytime you try to prove a false point you contradict yourself and prove yourself wrong.


----------



## potroastV2 (Jan 27, 2013)

I can't blame you, Uncle Ben, when these "growers" talk about harvesting plants after only 40-50 days! What will the newbies think?

Oh I know, they will listen to the guys who have been growing for several decades. This year is my 40th anniversary of growing my first pot plant, and I know that you have similar experience. 

So we don't have to continually correct them, the other members recognize who to listen to. Let the trolls spout their crap, and know that most members don't pay them any attention.


----------



## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Hate to break it to you pot roast, there are afghani landraces that finish in 6 weeks, outdoors


----------



## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben did a defoliation experment, let the record show


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> GE 217. No EC meter.


got myself one... ill skip the EC toy... as long as roots are healthy.. fertilizing should be a piece of cake....


----------



## potroastV2 (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> Hate to break it to you pot roast, there are afghani landraces that finish in 6 weeks, outdoors



I've grown Afghani #1, the original strain bred by Cultivators Choice, and I flowered her for 9 weeks. Those last 3 weeks are when the resins are ripening, you should try it.

Like I said, the others will recognize who to listen to.


----------



## bde0001 (Jan 27, 2013)

thats what we call


----------



## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

If like a dopey high I would, clear thc is just as good as 'ripened'


----------



## Slab (Jan 27, 2013)

New shit. Herborveracios fright flower response. You nibble on your leaves and make a mooing sound. Double your yeilds, Sun!


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 27, 2013)

Slab said:


> New shit. Herborveracios fright flower response. You nibble on your leaves and make a mooing sound. Double your yeilds, Sun!


Most folks don't know though.. that technique only works when you nibble in the morning..


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 27, 2013)

Only if there's still dew on the leaves with a new moon then you will see some magic.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jan 27, 2013)

I stated this earlier in the thread.. but.. if you have lower popcorn issues and you are doing LST or topping... then try out not topping and using a more mild LST.
Less bud sites, just as much weight, no need to defoliate, easier trim, consistent buds from the lowest to the point of the cola. I swear, try it.

Less bud sites = same weight = bigger more consistent buds
More bud sites = same weight = inconsistent buds and maturing

Also, dropping the LST, topping and defoliating cuts at least 4 days from your flower cycle.

Just a suggestion, if you like what you do and it's not what I do, cool.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2013)

rollitup said:


> I can't blame you, Uncle Ben, when these "growers" talk about harvesting plants after only 40-50 days! What will the newbies think?
> 
> Oh I know, they will listen to the guys who have been growing for several decades. This year is my 40th anniversary of growing my first pot plant, and I know that you have similar experience.
> 
> So we don't have to continually correct them, the other members recognize who to listen to. Let the trolls spout their crap, and know that most members don't pay them any attention.


Well said jefe! 

You and I also are probably in the same age group. Bless Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison, RIP.

Grow hard,
Uncle Ben


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

90% of the PAR that a leaf absorbs. Only 5% is retained.

Around 50% is transmitted. The rest is reflected and lost as heat.

that is what I have gathered so far.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

Slab said:


> 90% of the PAR that a leaf absorbs. Only 5% is retained.
> 
> Around 50% is transmitted. The rest is reflected and lost as heat.
> 
> that is what I have gathered so far.


Hey slab, can you elaborate some key points of important aspects and variables for that transmittance ratio to take place.. i been reading some shit that might apply to the woody stage of cannabis and stuff...


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2013)

Slab said:


> 90% of the PAR that a leaf absorbs. Only 5% is retained.
> 
> Around 50% is transmitted. The rest is reflected and lost as heat.
> 
> that is what I have gathered so far.



Let's assume that's true for argument's sake..

So, what does that mean to the leaves below the first leaves? Does that mean that they absorb 50% of the remaining 50% -- kinda like a half life, or does that mean that they absorb the remaining 50% with nothing left for the leaves below those? Either way, a 50% transmission combined with inverse square rule doesn't make for a whole lot of light below the canopy.


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

Not with confidence Elk.

spectrum, intensity and angle are what I am sinking my one brain cell into now.


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Let's assume that's true for argument's sake..
> 
> So, what does that mean to the leaves below the first leaves? Does that mean that they absorb 50% of the remaining 50% -- kinda like a half life, or does that mean that they absorb the remaining 50% with nothing left for the leaves below those? Either way, a 50% transmission combined with inverse square rule doesn't make for a whole lot of light below the canopy.


The lower leaves are built differently than the top, not just in size, internally. Intensity diminishes true, so naturally absorption, reflection and transmittance change, the lower leaves are built for it. It 's going to get its 5% not matter what lol.


I have kept large mother plants lush and green with a 40 watt shop light to give you some perspective.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

ok, i been collecting some info regarding defoliation shit... so far.. (i'm still doing research) and i'm leaving light details out of the question... regarding leaves function and how the enzyme invertase carry out it job for sugars... pretty much what's been seeing in defoliation is as leaves recreate.. sucrose have a more soluble ratio within 21 days of a leave being regenerated... however, there is strong indication that all the hexose ( carbon atoms collected ) after 21 days are balancing and being processed... so pretty much.. take the leaf out... yes.. more sucrose and stuff..but the hexose is gone... gonzoo.. sucrose is still being processed after 21 days just that the leaves begin to process other stuff as well.. <--- this is just looking at the work of sugar breakdown of a leaf... now take into consideration the other functions of a leaf and stuff.. my mind is going as... if i don't manage to keep leave super green... 40% yellowing.. bye bye leaf


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

Having water, nutrients and fresh air. That will almost never happen. Yellowing that is.

unless you piss on an outdoor plant like my old roommate did to me lol.

You should have saw me looking @ this vertical yellow streak down the middle of a plant, I am slow on the uptake so lightning was my prime suspect for a good half hour haha.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

Yup, i'll see how it goes.. next grow i'm try to dial things better.. Edit: don't want to lead to irresponsible thinking and lead new growers to believe stupid shit.. Keep green your shit. Period.


----------



## akula (Jan 28, 2013)

Slab said:


> I have kept large mother plants lush and green with a 40 watt shop light to give you some perspective.


This is a pretty good point that I have never considered and will probably be largely ignored. I have mother plants that right at this moment are growing out of control because I haven't the room right now for new cuttings in my veg room (waiting for the final harvest in the flower room then I will transfer and cut new clones). But anyways I have so many plants in my veg room that my mothers have been pushed to the 'dead zone'. I place where I have a few cfl bulbs. They are as lush and green underneath as they are on top and bushy as hell.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2013)

akula said:


> Slab said:
> 
> 
> > I have kept large mother plants lush and green with a 40 watt shop light to give you some perspective.
> ...


My main concern wouldn't be keeping them green so much as it would be controlling unwanted stretch.


----------



## akula (Jan 28, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> My main concern wouldn't be keeping them green so much as it would be controlling unwanted stretch.


Wait, your saying defoliation helps to control stretching? How in the hell did you come to up with that idea?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 28, 2013)

akula said:


> Wait, your saying defoliation helps to control stretching? How in the hell did you come to up with that idea?


the plant puts it energy to making new fan leaves after first cut 21 days into flower.... it still grows it just shortens space between nodes, my observation from my grow.


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

sounds like a nice problem akula. go in there and be in your own personal oxygen bar.


----------



## akula (Jan 28, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> the plant puts it energy to making new fan leaves after first cut 21 days into flower.... it still grows it just shortens space between nodes, my observation from my grow.


Of course it puts energy into growing new leaves, you cut them off and new ones appear. But what is the logic behind your shortened node theory?


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

Closer temps between day and night during stretch is less work.... You gotta sacrifice something.. But not my leaves... <----- check out on gibberellin hormone and its effect on plant development.


----------



## akula (Jan 28, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Closer temps between day and night during stretch is less work.... You gotta sacrifice something.. But not my leaves...


Yeah I have heard of the "reduce temp fluctuations to reduce stretch" theory. I am not 100% sure I buy into it, but then I haven't really looked into it enough in depth to have much of an opinion. However this "using defoliation to reduce stretch" is brand new concept. I have never heard of this....I dont think it has even been brought up in this thread until just right now. I could be wrong.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

akula said:


> Yeah I have heard of the "reduce temp fluctuations to reduce stretch" theory. I am not 100% sure I buy into it, but then I haven't really looked into it enough in depth to have much of an opinion. However this "using defoliation to reduce stretch" is brand new concept. I have never heard of this....I dont think it has even been brought up in this thread until just right now. I could be wrong.


you know what happened to me? It was by mistake but because of poor aeration.. My transpiration rate was less than optimal.. So instead of the plant drinking tones of water like it normally does.. It drank less.. Anyways... My top 5 -7 are within a 3 inch length... I haven't look for scientific proof yet... And my tems were like... 30c day 13 c night


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 28, 2013)

akula said:


> Of course it puts energy into growing new leaves, you cut them off and new ones appear. But what is the logic behind your shortened node theory?


just an observation on my plants from previous grows.


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

Internodal length is genetic and can't be shortened. Stunting growth or stressing your plant unessarily opens you up to whole set of problems you don't want. They can't fight off pests and disease nor produce anything close to dank (1 hit quit).

if the light is too far away from the top of the canopy it will stretch, intensity determine how close, the basics.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

Slab said:


> Internodal length is genetic and can't be shortened. Stunting growth or stressing your plant unessarily opens you up to whole set of problems you don't want. They can't fight off pests and disease nor produce anything close to dank (1 hit quit).
> 
> if the light is too far away from the top of the canopy it will stretch, intensity determine how close, the basics.


What about low and high stress training techniques?


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

when you do it right, the nodes with space properly and buds fills in. Shit goes great you will have more space between nodes and bigger buds.


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

Indica hybrids have a Short internodal length genetically. You have to be highly incompetent to get them to stretch too far.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

Slab said:


> when you do it right, the nodes with space properly and buds fills in. Shit goes great you will have more space between nodes and bigger buds.


Hmmm does my cola pic looks like something is wrong with it?


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

I thought it looked strange. I will look again. You have fan leaves shooting out of the cola? I have seen that mutation before with no ill effects. Let me look again.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 28, 2013)

Slab said:


> I thought it looked strange. I will look again. You have fan leaves shooting out of the cola? I have seen that mutation before with no ill effects. Let me look again.


No I think it was positioning herself after the intense SC...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2013)

Yep, I'd say DiAss is being a tad bit ignorant when it comes to plant processes. I mean when this guy is more worried about a plant stretching than keeping it green and healthy, it oughta tell ya something. Someone has their priorities a bit fucked up. It also suggests that he thinks high N foods induce stretch. They don't, details follow. 

Two things that induce long internodes outside the normal early flowering phase or sativa genes is very low light which is usually a moot point for this discussion as the light is above the canopy (the lower part of the plant has lignified somewhat and is through undergoing cell division and elongation) and use of high P foods, aka Bloom Foods. IOW, you guys having a love affair with your cannabis specific bloom foods are again shittin' in yo mess cans. Read it and weep - http://www.gpnmag.com/what-really-causes-stretch 

So, a plant will be a happy plant with a more balanced NPK value, also helps to read your plants and understand what they are telling you.

Uncle Ben


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

Lucky you didn't bring the Rupaul out in her.


----------



## Slab (Jan 28, 2013)

Shitting in your helmet is acceptable, mess can is a bit short sighted lol


----------



## Kite High (Jan 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, I'd say DiAss is being a tad bit ignorant when it comes to plant processes. I mean when this guy is more worried about a plant stretching than keeping it green and healthy, it oughta tell ya something. Someone has their priorities a bit fucked up. It also suggests that he thinks high N foods induce stretch. They don't, details follow.
> 
> Two things that induce long internodes outside the normal early flowering phase or sativa genes is very low light which is usually a moot point for this discussion as the light is above the canopy (the lower part of the plant has lignified somewhat and is through undergoing cell division and elongation) and use of high P foods, aka Bloom Foods. IOW, you guys having a love affair with your cannabis specific bloom foods are again shittin' in yo mess cans. Read it and weep - http://www.gpnmag.com/what-really-causes-stretch
> 
> ...


I discovered this myself but that was a great read and pleases me that I deduced correctly...completely accurate scientific data not biased by a money whore...awesome


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2013)

akula said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > My main concern wouldn't be keeping them green so much as it would be controlling unwanted stretch.
> ...


No. 

I wasn't talking about defoliation at all. Maybe you should read what I quoted and what I responded to, and then reference my response in relation to that. That's how language and stuff works. 

I was saying that if I used a 40w shop light to keep mothers I would he more concerned with unneeded stretch (regardless of leaf removal practices or not..) than I would be concerned with keeping the leaves green. That seems like the bigger issue in that scenario. 

Do you understand now? Are we clear? Should I say it another way?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2013)

akula said:


> keebo3000 said:
> 
> 
> > the plant puts it energy to making new fan leaves after first cut 21 days into flower.... it still grows it just shortens space between nodes, my observation from my grow.
> ...


Dude, you made the theory and put it in someone else's name and ran with it. Wtf?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yep, I'd say DiAss is being a tad bit ignorant when it comes to plant processes. I mean when this guy is more worried about a plant stretching than keeping it green and healthy, it oughta tell ya something. Someone has their priorities a bit fucked up. It also suggests that he thinks high N foods induce stretch. They don't, details follow.
> 
> Two things that induce long internodes outside the normal early flowering phase or sativa genes is very low light which is usually a moot point for this discussion as the light is above the canopy (the lower part of the plant has lignified somewhat and is through undergoing cell division and elongation) and use of high P foods, aka Bloom Foods. IOW, you guys having a love affair with your cannabis specific bloom foods are again shittin' in yo mess cans. Read it and weep - http://www.gpnmag.com/what-really-causes-stretch
> 
> ...


So if you keep a mother plant around with 40watts of flouro strip you don't worry about it stretching? The top will be fine of course, but it will have to be a small mother or lst'd down.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2013)

The reason I wasn't worried about it staying green vs stretch is because I agreed that it would stay green. My plant leaves are green till harvest. 
I understand you really want to find fault in me, but don't rush to false judgements too quick. I'm not the bloom foods lover you describe, and btw Dyna-Gro Foilage-Pro is something I use until a week before harvest. Don't speak of what you don't know. It only makes you look a fool.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 28, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> The reason I wasn't worried about it staying green vs stretch is because I agreed that it would stay green. My plant leaves are green till harvest.
> I understand you really want to find fault in me, but don't rush to false judgements too quick. I'm not the bloom foods lover you describe, and btw Dyna-Gro Foilage-Pro is something I use until a week before harvest. Don't speak of what you don't know. It only makes you look a fool.


I love Foliage pro...also like to throw them a lil Jacks acid special from time to time...not even FP greens like Jacks IMO


----------



## akula (Jan 28, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> No.
> 
> I wasn't talking about defoliation at all. Maybe you should read what I quoted and what I responded to, and then reference my response in relation to that. That's how language and stuff works.
> 
> ...


Dude you really need to keep up with topic at hand. We are discussing defoliation here. Nobody gives a rat's ass if there is some stretching in you damn vegging mothers, they are constantly being pruned. Honestly WTF. Maybe you forgot your riddlin or something, but your random off topic tangents sure seem like trolling at times. 

Hey light penetrates foliage shown here in in this example.....hey squirrel...stretching...dadadadada.


----------



## akula (Jan 28, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> .
> Maybe you should keep up. We've been talking all kinds of off topic stuff. I don't keep mothers, so fine, I don't know.. Are you happy now? I made a very simple statement regarding low light levels and you ran with it. Grow Up dude.


I don't care what random topics have been here on this thread, I'm talking about what slab and I were talking about...when you interjected some random thought...about something you don't even have any damn experience in as it turns out. And you tell me to grow up? Stop trolling dude, it's getting old.


----------



## akula (Jan 28, 2013)

And as for your edited comment, I have had only two problems with you. Both times you jumped my shit for no reason. Maybe your hate for UB has clouded your judgment, because it sure seems like you are nothing but a troll at times.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 28, 2013)

I didn't get much stretch but I veged them to a large size also helps minimize stretch defoliation does make for tighter nodes these are pictures of some tight plants that needs to stretch some it is to dense.
Notice how the 1000 watt light doesn't go thru the plant in third and fourth pic defoliation makes dense plants if done a few times in veg.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 28, 2013)

akula said:


> And as for your edited comment, I have had only two problems with you. Both times you jumped my shit for no reason. Maybe your hate for UB has clouded your judgment, because it sure seems like you are nothing but a troll at times.


Who's the troll in this thread anyway? The guy who has tried defoliation and reported back with results, or the guy who dismisses it without any experience on the matter? Why are you still here again?


----------



## jack's soil grow (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I didn't get much stretch but I veged them to a large size also helps minimize stretch defoliation does make for tighter nodes these are pictures of some tight plants that needs to stretch some it is to dense.
> Notice how the 1000 watt light doesn't go thru the plant in third and fourth pic defoliation makes dense plants if done a few times in veg.


fan leaves block the light, remove or cut the ones covering the nodes upto the 2 week in flower
worked for me organic soil grow


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

That's a nice defoliated bitch.

Did you defoliate after the first two weeks? 

I have two weeks to go I'm going to defoliate again I did it 5 times in veg then 3 weeks into flower.


----------



## jack's soil grow (Jan 29, 2013)

thanks bud brewer 
I leave the plant after the 2nd or 3rd week in flower (depends on how the plant looks) as it needs its leaves at this stage and removing them will stress the plant and reduce the yeild imo
I use selective defoliate to get the plant bushy, control the streching in flower and get lots of bud sites


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I have two weeks to go I'm going to defoliate again I did it 5 times in veg then 3 weeks into flower.


Dat's what I'm talkin' about, hah!


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 29, 2013)

...u know what makes a plant bushy?...leaves just sayin


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dat's what I'm talkin' about, hah!


??????????????????????


----------



## kinetic (Jan 29, 2013)

People get so uppidy like ub is saying you _can't_ grow with defoilization, what he's saying it limits your yields and potential.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Like Jacks defoliated plant yield is maximized and mine do you think is too bushy I do I removed a bag of leaves after these pictures


----------



## donmagicjuan (Jan 29, 2013)

my bush is too bushy


----------



## jack's soil grow (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Dat's what I'm talkin' about, hah!


topping once and selective defoliate gives you a lot more than 4 main bud sites, I can pull 11 main bud sites on a small plant without trying haha


----------



## jack's soil grow (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Like Jacks defoliated plant yield is maximized and mine do you think is too bushy I do I removed a bag of leaves after these pictures


your plants look realy good and you will yeild a lot of bud 
keep up the good work


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 29, 2013)

That's wassup man! Experiment and post your findings...
It's the ONLY way to reduce the noise!


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That's a nice defoliated bitch.


Slap dem bitches around a bit too, dey likes dat yah sah!


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

jack's soil grow said:


> topping once and selective defoliate gives you a lot more than 4 main bud sites, I can pull 11 main bud sites on a small plant without trying haha


And have less overall yield. Yay for you


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

jack's soil grow said:


> leaves block the light, remove or cut the ones covering the nodes upto the 2 week in flower
> worked for me organic soil grow
> 
> View attachment 2501444


Ya Jack what are you doing this plant looks like you could have maximized this and got another gram out of it lol.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Ya Jack what are you doing this plant looks like you could have maximized this and got another gram out of it lol.


well if that impresses you then nothing else needs to be stated


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> The reason I wasn't worried about it staying green vs stretch is because I agreed that it would stay green. My plant leaves are green till harvest.
> I understand you really want to find fault in me, but don't rush to false judgements too quick. I'm not the bloom foods lover you describe, and btw Dyna-Gro Foilage-Pro is something I use until a week before harvest. Don't speak of what you don't know. It only makes you look a fool.



can you eplain your process of aplying the dyna-gro... like trying to miss buds or do just spray? trying to keep my damn leaves green too! ( i kno unk leave the cannabis specific nutes alone)


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> can you eplain your process of aplying the dyna-gro... like trying to miss buds or do just spray? trying to keep my damn leaves green too! ( i kno unk leave the cannabis specific nutes alone)


simply use the Foliage Pro or Grow throughout the grow....one needs to keep the N content to keep 'em green. PHOSPHOROUS is the macro element the plants need the least when grown in containers...hell one needs more Cal than P for cannabis especially in flower

Dont know about PJ but I do not foliar spray...rain doesn't have fertilizer in it does it?


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> simply use the Foliage Pro or Grow throughout the grow....one needs to keep the N content to keep 'em green. PHOSPHOROUS is the macro element the plants need the least when grown in containers...hell one needs more Cal than P for cannabis especially in flower
> 
> Dont know about PJ but I do not foliar spray...rain doesn't have fertilizer in it does it?


thanks for comment. the reason i was asking him was because HE does foliar spray thru out grow. and his plant look awesome. 10 times better than mine. i also dont foliar spray..... so me being quite intelligent, i would like a tip from him and until i see a pic from you i would love to hear HIS answer on the subject. but once again thanks anyway


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Rain does have some atmospheric nitrogen


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> well if that impresses you then nothing else needs to be stated


That is a nice fat plant I know all the plants you have never posted pictures of are all ten pound monster some of us are happy with 10-16 OZ plants


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

I wonder if at one time there was nutriens in our atmosphere? volcano ash? etc.

Or are we cruel to the plant, they do absorb a lot of other things that aren't good for them. radiation fall out they handle like a champ.


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Jacks plant looked like about 3 oz's


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> thanks for comment. the reason i was asking him was because HE does foliar spray thru out grow. and his plant look awesome. 10 times better than mine. i also dont foliar spray..... so me being quite intelligent, i would like a tip from him and until i see a pic from you i would love to hear HIS answer on the subject. but once again thanks anyway


lol...HB and I are friends dude...was not inferring any bad connotations

and here you go...4 plants at 3 days flower


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

I bet there are nutrients in rainwater more then the nitrogen which is the most abundant gas like you said there is ash from volcanoes and forest fires along with a lot of dirt the wind sweeps up. You can fill a clean bucket with rainwater and it will have a yellow tinge to it.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That is a nice fat plant I know all the plants you have never posted pictures of are all ten pound monster some of us are happy with 10-16 OZ plants


5 weeks flower AFTER a relay failed and cooked them at 140F 98%rh





























Now you were saying?


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I bet there are nutrients in rainwater more then the nitrogen which is the most abundant gas like you said there is ash from volcanoes and forest fires along with a lot of dirt the wind sweeps up. You can fill a clean bucket with rainwater and it will have a yellow tinge to it.


mostly livestock and human waste is what your seeing Bud Brewer, lol. 

They enjoy that h2o most of all, that is the main indgredient of a misting solutions after all.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I bet there are nutrients in rainwater more then the nitrogen which is the most abundant gas like you said there is ash from volcanoes and forest fires along with a lot of dirt the wind sweeps up. You can fill a clean bucket with rainwater and it will have a yellow tinge to it.


http://www.people.carleton.edu/~bhaileab/environmentalgeology/RainWater.pdf

not enough of anything in it other than water in it to do a thing....


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> mostly livestock and human waste is what your seeing Bud Brewer, lol.
> 
> They enjoy that h2o most of all, that is the main indgredient of a misting solutions after all.


now yes they do like a little shower of WATER and do not think I do not know there are many benefits for foliar application of nutrients...I was merely pointing out that you can keep them green until the end WITHOUT foliar feeding by applying N and not applying high P...IOW that foliar isn't required for the green to the end outcome


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Haha, these guys might need the help of a 10% solution.

a purist, I can dig it Kite high.


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> Kite High said:
> 
> 
> > simply use the Foliage Pro or Grow throughout the grow....one needs to keep the N content to keep 'em green. PHOSPHOROUS is the macro element the plants need the least when grown in containers...hell one needs more Cal than P for cannabis especially in flower
> ...


I usually only foliar spray with liquid karma, and don't spray with anything after week 4 of flower. I also follow with a water only spray a few days later if past week 2. Best to spray the bottom of the leaf because as UB points out stomata are on the bottom of the leaf and that's what absorbs the nutes. 

I agree largely with Kite High, and IMO he's one of the best growers on this site. I use Foliage-Pro as part of my nutes all the way through, but I also combine with PureBlend Pro Bloom and Instant Kharma because I like a rounded mix of nutes from different sources, and those two also include yummy things like folic acid. The other supplement I include is Pro-Tekt from DG, which I've discovered helps a lot when growing in an inert medium. 

In general if your gonna foliar feed do it at half a strength or less of what you would feed the roots.


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Going to to spray fish emulsion for explosive growth, fuck green I want more green


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> Haha, these guys might need the help of a 10% solution.
> 
> a purist, I can dig it Kite high.


I respect you Slab and hope I have earned yours as well...

Imean itsa a lil aggravating when you try to help but they act like you do not know shit... All I did was share some real info and get slammed for doing it by some kids who think they are the first onesto discover this when I been growing since I was chasing theiir mothers for the pussy...you know?well I guess I will just quit helping and sharing my knowledge that I EARNED FROM STUDY AND EXPERIENCE...not from what others think they know

Thank you for being real Slab


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> Going to to spray fish emulsion for explosive growth, fuck green I want more green


Just dip the buds in an aquarium, lol.


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I respect you Slab and hope I have earned yours as well...
> 
> Imean itsa a lil aggravating when you try to help but they act like you do not know shit... All I did was share some real info and get slammed for doing it by some kids who think they are the first onesto discover this when I been growing since I was chasing theiir mothers for the pussy...you know?well I guess I will just quit helping and sharing my knowledge that I EARNED FROM STUDY AND EXPERIENCE...not from what others think they know
> 
> Thank you for being real Slab


The only solace you can take is when the finally remove their heads out their asses they will be dealing with the same resistance
We get now.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I usually only foliar spray with liquid karma, and don't spray with anything after week 4 of flower. I also follow with a water only spray a few days later if past week 2. Best to spray the bottom of the leaf because as UB points out stomata are on the bottom of the leaf and that's what absorbs the nutes.
> 
> I agree largely with Kite High, and IMO he's one of the best growers on this site. I use Foliage-Pro as part of my nutes all the way through, but I also combine with PureBlend Pro Bloom and Instant Kharma because I like a rounded mix of nutes from different sources, and those two also include yummy things like folic acid. The other supplement I include is Pro-Tekt from DG, which I've discovered helps a lot when growing in an inert medium.
> 
> In general if your gonna foliar feed do it at half a strength or less of what you would feed the roots.


I must admit that I like liquid karma as well and use it on half of my plants to see what it does and I am impressed and will test it again soon and probably add it to my regime 

Thank you for the complement and you are very knowledgeable as well..as a matter of fact I am perplexed a bit by you and UB's chopping on each other as you and he actually agree in your knowledge and ideas on at least 90% of what I read from you and him...I see that with you it is his abrasiveness not knowledge that you are bucking and with him he has labeled you a fool and likes having you around to beat up...lol

I see you on icmag and read your entire reflector thread...I also saw the greeners chart and man for the buck them radiants are bad ass eh? I really am in love with my PL Deeps...the light is so well dispersed that at 24 inches in a 3x3 there is only a 700 ftc difference between directly below the bulb compared to the furthest corners lowest reading! And most amazingly this is with 400 watts and uniform to both the hoods. You a good dude PJ and really so is UB...and believe me he knows what the fuck he is talking about and forgot more about growing these plants than I will ever even know...and he is rock solid ol school kill a snitch OG to boot...not like the sell out Rosenthal's and Skunkmans

And you an awesome growerws as well...keep on keeping on...there are lotsa REAL knowledgeable and helpful growers on icmag...like whazzup..he really is the yoda of growing

KEEP 'EM GREEN


----------



## Dank Raptor (Jan 29, 2013)

Looks like this grow had some defoliation requirements.

[video=youtube;IVBR5EPsiiI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVBR5EPsiiI[/video]


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## PJ Diaz (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I usually only foliar spray with liquid karma, and don't spray with anything after week 4 of flower. I also follow with a water only spray a few days later if past week 2. Best to spray the bottom of the leaf because as UB points out stomata are on the bottom of the leaf and that's what absorbs the nutes.
> ...


Thanks Bro. I think you pretty much hit the head on the nail there.


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Ha, yeah usually when I think have a good idea. That's the cue to get a second opinion. Chomping on the bit to give nutrients I know myself


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Dank Raptor said:


> Looks like this grow had some defoliation requirements.
> 
> [video=youtube;IVBR5EPsiiI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVBR5EPsiiI[/video]


Commercial growing you 'big leaf' them a couple of days before you take them down, to speed processing. Lets see if that's what they did.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> 5 weeks flower AFTER a relay failed and cooked them at 140F 98%rh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


f------g beautiful!!! thats what im saying


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> The only solace you can take is when the finally remove their heads out their asses they will be dealing with the same resistance
> We get now.


yeah but look around here ...theres bunches that say they have been growing for years and the shit they tell people makes you go huh? Yeah hopefully they stick to it long enough (check out craigslist all the brand new equipment for sale dirt cheap cause they kill a plant and quit) and actually learn something huh? lol


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> now yes they do like a little shower of WATER and do not think I do not know there are many benefits for foliar application of nutrients...I was merely pointing out that you can keep them green until the end WITHOUT foliar feeding by applying N and not applying high P...IOW that foliar isn't required for the green to the end outcome


thanks, still learning. not ashamed to admit it.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I respect you Slab and hope I have earned yours as well...
> 
> Imean itsa a lil aggravating when you try to help but they act like you do not know shit... All I did was share some real info and get slammed for doing it by some kids who think they are the first onesto discover this when I been growing since I was chasing theiir mothers for the pussy...you know?well I guess I will just quit helping and sharing my knowledge that I EARNED FROM STUDY AND EXPERIENCE...not from what others think they know
> 
> Thank you for being real Slab


woah.... no offense meant. just wanted the mans opinion......... .... damn. was my mother sexy? lol


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> woah.... no offense meant. just wanted the mans opinion......... .... damn. was my mother sexy? lol


was not at you dude at all...and...yeah she was hot


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> thanks, still learning. not ashamed to admit it.


As am I. 

I'm not a pro grower but I'm not a noob either. I'm not a botanist but I have taken some classes. I grew my first plant 20 years ago, but only have a couple of years indoor experience. I'm still experimenting, but that doesn't mean I'm a fucking idiot like Uncle Ben tries to make me seem. Nor does it mean that someone who wants to grow a plant without any formal education should be subjected to insults and make to feel like an idiot. They should be encouraged and supported by their elders. Otherwise the elders might as well just fuck off, because the younger generations will reject their wisdom.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> thanks, still learning. not ashamed to admit it.


was your request of a picture that set me off a bit then here comes other dude talking smack....lol

Man let me tell you HB is a grower I learned and continue to learn from ...knows his shit is HONEST and grows some of the best herb I have ever enjoyed...great one to pursue for knowledge no doubt..I was only implying what it was that keeps em green... not trying to interfere with your seeking but add to what you seek...follow? PLEASE LEARN from people who actually have been growing for a good while and dont go for the hype...go for the truth...and TRY it all...things that work for YOU in YOUR garden keep doing..things that dont stop doing...most important thing is genetics...go after the real deal solid genetics not the pollen chunckers...and ALL of your environmental elements needs to be in controlled and monitored...all of it temps rh light air water...believe it or not in all actuality the feeding is easy peasy once you listen to and watch what the "PLANTS" are telling you and do what they say not what you think they need...the plants will teach you better than a thousands books forums and old farts like me...if you learn to hear and see their truth

And oh yeah I learn all the time...like when I cooked my plants because my cap relay didn't work as promised...so now fuck cap products...gonna switch brands...I am finding sunlight supplies products superior to RandM supply speaking of which they RandM recently closed down their Frostbox division...I know why partially as I had to return a 12000 btu minisplit to them for refund and also that they are in dire financial trouble with a D- credit rating to their SUPPLIERS so methinks they will go under on near future which sux because they just acquired quantum digi ballast which is the brand I like most if and when I decide to drop mag coil...though I doubt I would any ways cuse these built like a tank mag coils last forever


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Come on guys bring it in, group hug.


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> As am I.
> 
> I'm not a pro grower but I'm not a noob either. I'm not a botanist but I have taken some classes. I grew my first plant 20 years ago, but only have a couple of years indoor experience. I'm still experimenting, but that doesn't mean I'm a fucking idiot like Uncle Ben tries to make me seem. Nor does it mean that someone who wants to grow a plant without any formal education should be subjected to insults and make to feel like an idiot. They should be encouraged and supported by their elders. Otherwise the elders might as well just fuck off, because the younger generations will reject their wisdom.


 i grew my first plant 10 months ago!! lol super newb here!! lol


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)




----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> was your request of a picture that set me off a bit then here comes other dude talking smack....lol
> 
> Man let me tell you HB is a grower I learned and continue to learn from ...knows his shit is HONEST and grows some of the best herb I have ever enjoyed...great one to pursue for knowledge no doubt..I was only implying what it was that keeps em green... not trying to interfere with your seeking but add to what you seek...follow? PLEASE LEARN from people who actually have been growing for a good while and dont go for the hype...go for the truth...and TRY it all...things that work for YOU in YOUR garden keep doing..things that dont stop doing...most important thing is genetics...go after the real deal solid genetics not the pollen chunckers...and ALL of your environmental elements needs to be in controlled and monitored...all of it temps rh light air water...believe it or not in all actuality the feeding is easy peasy once you listen to and watch what the "PLANTS" are telling you and do what they say not what you think they need...the plants will teach you better than a thousands books forums and old farts like me...if you learn to hear and see their truth


 i also admit i've been a lil put off recently on this forum. it seems like to every post i make older growers chime in and attempt to poop all over my thoughts and ideas and spout off about plant knowledge and tomatoes and scold me for not starting growing before, for not using the right nutrients, honestly i got the idea to start growing from watching "weeds". and the nutrient i saw advertised was what i bought, how was i to know it was the "devil". i feel their are other ways to educate than to get upset at someone for not knowing as much as you do.... that being said i have noticed my self getting a lil more snippy since joining this thread..... i just took my testosterone gel ( the 1.6 baby!!!) so I should man back up the morning. LOL


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> i also admit i've been a lil put off recently on this forum. it seems like to every post i make older growers chime in and attempt to poop all over my thoughts and ideas and spout off about plant knowledge and tomatoes and scold me for not starting growing before, for not using the right nutrients, honestly i got the idea to start growing from watching "weeds". and the nutrient i saw advertised was what i bought, how was i to know it was the "devil". i feel their are other ways to educate than to get upset at someone for not knowing as much as you do.... that being said i have noticed my self getting a lil more snippy since joining this thread..... i just took my testosterone gel ( the 1.6 baby!!!) so I should man back up the morning. LOL


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Let the rookie show begin


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## ASMALLVOICE (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> i also admit i've been a lil put off recently on this forum. it seems like to every post i make older growers chime in and attempt to poop all over my thoughts and ideas and spout off about plant knowledge and tomatoes and scold me for not starting growing before, for not using the right nutrients, honestly i got the idea to start growing from watching "weeds". and the nutrient i saw advertised was what i bought, how was i to know it was the "devil". i feel their are other ways to educate than to get upset at someone for not knowing as much as you do.... that being said i have noticed my self getting a lil more snippy since joining this thread..... i just took my testosterone gel ( the 1.6 baby!!!) so I should man back up the morning. LOL


 Hiya M8,
I know your pain. I am only on the 5th week of flowering my first grow. You have to take a step back from time to time and do a bit of research. Not just on here, as there are many sources to obtain knowledge from. After reading countless articles and going back and forth in my head about what I wanted to do, I realized that this is all about me and my desire to grow, just as yours is about you and your desire to grow. 

Never sell yourself short, ever, as there is a never ending supply of people that are chomping at the bit to do it for you. Even when someone is climbing your ass because of a question or responce, it still is all about you and your plants. Let them have thier moment and move on, most of the time I don't respond ( unless I am in the political section, then its gloves off and lets dance...lol)

There is always something to be learned, sometimes what to do and sometimes what not to do. So do your thing and those that are going to hate are going to hate, no matter the subject. Steady as she grows captain.

Peace and Great Grows

Asmallvoice


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

ASMALLVOICE said:


> Hiya M8,
> I know your pain. I am only on the 5th week of flowering my first grow. You have to take a step back from time to time and do a bit of research. Not just on here, as there are many sources to obtain knowledge from. After reading countless articles and going back and forth in my head about what I wanted to do, I realized that this is all about me and my desire to grow, just as yours is about you and your desire to grow.
> 
> Never sell yourself short, ever, as there is a never ending supply of people that are chomping at the bit to do it for you. Even when someone is climbing your ass because of a question or responce, it still is all about you and your plants. Let them have thier moment and move on, most of the time I don't respond ( *unless I am in the political section, then its gloves off and lets dance...lol*)
> ...


And I must admit that I really enjoy your words there...am a bit of the same ilk as you...your years as mine must be many


----------



## keebo3000 (Jan 29, 2013)

another de-foil vid i located [video=youtube_share;RNezI9MWTbY]http://youtu.be/RNezI9MWTbY[/video]


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Let the rookie show begin


looks good!! is there some way you could adjust your white balance so the plant color shows through instaed of that hps yellow? I mean I could but it is not mine so?


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> another de-foil vid i located [video=youtube_share;RNezI9MWTbY]http://youtu.be/RNezI9MWTbY[/video]


try it and compare and do what works best for you


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> looks good!! is there some way you could adjust your white balance so the plant color shows through instaed of that hps yellow? I mean I could but it is not mine so?


Let me see if the cam have that option... its my ipad... if not tomorrow for sure bro, ill take pics before the hps heats up...


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Let me see if the cam have that option... its my ipad... if not tomorrow for sure bro, ill take pics before the hps heats up...


you can do it post editing...got gimp?


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> you can do it post editing...got gimp?


Can't find a downloadable version for my ipad... if you can do it.. Go ahead man.. Post it I would like to see it as well...


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Can't find a downloadable version for my ipad... if you can do it.. Go ahead man.. Post it I would like to see it as well...


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

I grew my first 3 plants in 1984 outside I got caught with wet weed I was drying by my mom before I actually smoke any at all I was just a kid. 
A few years later me and a friend had a grow in his garage then when I moved out I grew organically for ten years Then was in a relationship with kids and didn't grow for years except one outside grow.

I just started up again with this crop a buddy had two left over clones outside he put them out in september he didn't want to kill them and they weren't going to produce much so I dug them up with a gallon of heavy garden soil.
I've always made my own soil mix this is 6o% coco 10% perlite 10% peat based soil 20% earth worm compost I added hair, eggshells, lime, coffee, blended fruit leftovers and sardines and let it cook it came out with excellent texture and they really took off after I put them in 18 gallon totes, they were in four gallon pots with a gallon of heavy garden soil on top it was a problem.

I bought a bag of alfalfa from a pet store and a bag of worm casings and fermented my own fertilizer I used the alfalfa mostly in veg the casings more in flower along with oats, coffee, milk and blended bone meal even sea salt and blended garlic along with molasses my leaves are all green losing only some buried in the canopy plants are 4 feet high 3 feet wide.

I know defoliation is a very valid pruning/training method I used to do it some when things got to thick now I have read tons on it and have done it heavily from veg and have seen the branching and density it creates.

I don't appreciate people coming into this defoliation thread and clogging it up with solar panel logic or just plan insults for pages on end without any real experience on this topic. 

The leaves grow back from the branches making them take on a more dominant role then if you just let the top grow.

These plants had minimal branching until I striped the large leaves off











now after two defoliations you can see the branching and density of it from nothing previously.


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## donmagicjuan (Jan 29, 2013)

those plants look so shitty dude im sorry 

by the time i have 3 nodes i got braches coming out the ass and branches coming out of those im sorry dude really


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


>


Thanks mate


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> those plants look so shitty dude im sorry
> 
> by the time i have 3 nodes i got braches coming out the ass and branches coming out of those im sorry dude really


It is strain dependent on the amount of branching these don't like to make branches as you can see from the pic.

This is one of them four weeks flowering a week after removing a half bag of leaf from each plant.


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It is strain dependent on the amount of branching these don't like to make branches as you can see from the pic.
> 
> This is one of them four weeks flowering a week after removing a half bag of leaf from each plant.
> 
> View attachment 2502665View attachment 2502666View attachment 2502667


liking the long sativaish leaves


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

I have a question... why not remove fan leaves before they even develop? you guys know the anatomy and shape you are looking for... why wait until it has collected and used valuable energy.. even tho i still think... leaf and roots together.. more is merrier.. just my question for leaf molesters


----------



## The2TimEr (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I have a question... why not remove fan leaves before they even develop?


Sigged ...


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

this is not the defoliation thread, the title states blockers of light or energy producers.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

The2TimEr said:


> Sigged ...


what? ... ain't like anything i have to say is going to change anything..


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> this is not the defoliation thread, the title states blockers of light or energy producers.


sorry let me rephrase... why not remove them before they develop and block the light


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

i should have quoted budbrewer, he mentioned his frustratioin with the discussion of what a leafes function truly was.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> Going to to spray fish emulsion for explosive growth, fuck green I want more green


I've got the perfect solution - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03076266000P


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've got the perfect solution - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03076266000P


HA! and it's cheap too


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I have a question... why not remove fan leaves before they even develop? you guys know the anatomy and shape you are looking for... why wait until it has collected and used valuable energy.. even tho i still think... leaf and roots together.. more is merrier.. just my question for leaf molesters


The point is they grow from the secondary nodes replacing the canopy mass in three days, because I feed them they can grow as many leaves as I have food for them so taking fan leaves only makes the node connected take over dominance by replacing the leaf lost and put more hormones into the branches then the top.

How many low branching plants can be made to block a 1000 watt at only two feet high look at the first pics do you see much natural branching?




Now with a flash you can see the super tight nodes that I allowed to stretch till 3 weeks flowering before I defoliated again


----------



## ASMALLVOICE (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've got the perfect solution - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03076266000P


LMFAO...instant classic

Peace

Asmallvoice


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> i should have quoted budbrewer, he mentioned his frustratioin with the discussion of what a leafes function truly was.


What? receive.. store... process and supply?


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've got the perfect solution - http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03076266000P


" turn dog turds into Dank"


----------



## Figong (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> -snip-
> I don't appreciate people coming into this defoliation thread and clogging it up with solar panel logic or just plan insults for pages on end without any real experience on this topic. -snip-


"Solar panel logic" as you choose to call it, is quite accurate though.. as for penetration: beam angles, any secondary optics, spectrum are all factors. Photons + right spectrum = penetration, beam angle and secondary optics would just help adjust the coverage.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> i should have quoted budbrewer, he mentioned his frustratioin with the discussion of what a leafes function truly was.


It's quite obvious not many understand what a leaf's function is.

And so goes RIU....it's just how its membership rolls.

UB


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Budbrewer, i thought thsi details are strain genetic dependant.. there are other ways to promote the jasmonic acid without removing the leaves tho...


----------



## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> this is not the defoliation thread, the title states blockers of light or energy producers.


Oh yes indeed ...so glad you pointed that out..I really have been meaning to answer that exact question

They are both...they block/absorb light and produce sugars IE energy...so to insure this is not a detriment put light below the canopy and move the lights/plants...the light they love most does not emit from a stationary source


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> What? receive.. store... process and supply?



the whole leafs drive bud production cult living in the past afraid to try new things crowd


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> the whole leafs drive bud production cult living in the past afraid to try new things crowd


bro, i understand the concept behind innovation but like... there are scientist out there already doing all kind of tests... there is proof about this topic already.... reports have been submitted over and over but people want to prove their point no matter what...


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Figong said:


> "Solar panel logic" as you choose to call it, is quite accurate though.. as for penetration: beam angles, any secondary optics, spectrum are all factors. Photons + right spectrum = penetration, beam angle and secondary optics would just help adjust the coverage.


The leaves replace themselves very fast the secondary nodes grow fan leaves plus the original tips are always growing more fan leaves so you will get more leaf mass in total with tighter nodes then if I were to leave the plants alone from the first pics on the last page the nodes were 4 inches apart with no branching for foot tall plants then they get so thick that they can block a 1000 watt totally.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> the whole leafs drive bud production cult living in the past afraid to try new things crowd


Slab, that is total bullshit. You can have your cult thing. I work, live, and grow amongst a normal horticultural community. We don't do voodoo practices which includes defoliation..... nor do we use rocket fuels.

Recommend you pass this crap logic past your local horticultural extension agent or at one of their seminars they host on gardening from time to time. They (we) are way ahead of your time when it comes to the most recent high quality empirical field and lab research. You talk this crap smack to a bunch of professionals and you'll be laughed right out of the room as some kind of quack.

Uncle Ben


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Slab, that is total bullshit. You can have your cult thing. I work, live, and grow amongst a normal horticultural community. We don't do voodoo practices which includes defoliation..... nor do we use rocket fuels.
> 
> Recommend you pass this crap logic past your local horticultural extension agent or one of their seminars they host on gardening from time to time.. You'll be laughed right out of the room as some kind of quack.
> 
> Uncle Ben



I was dong an impression, actually quoting what was written here and what other noobs wrote on the subject when faced with facts from gardners.

haha, pardon me for throwing you a curve lol


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's quite obvious not many understand what a leaf's function is.
> 
> And so goes RIU....it's just how its membership rolls.
> 
> UB


So lets really know and get it understood and out of the way



*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+2]BOTANY: PLANT PARTS AND FUNCTIONS [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][continued][/SIZE][/FONT]* 
 *[FONT=Arial,Helvitica][SIZE=-1]Previous[/SIZE][/FONT]*
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]MG Manual Reference [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]Ch. 1, pp. 9 - 14[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvitica][SIZE=-1][Plant Parts and Functions: stems | leaves | buds | roots | flowers | fruit | seeds][/SIZE][/FONT]







[h=3]LEAVES [/h]The *blade* of a leaf is the expanded, thin structure on either side of the midrib. The blade is usually the largest and most conspicuous part of a leaf. The *petiole* is the stalk which supports the leaf blade. It varies in length and may be lacking entirely in some cases where the leaf blade is described as sessile or stalkless.​




The principal function of leaves is to absorb sunlight for the manufacturing of plant sugars in a process called photosynthesis. Leaves develop as a flattened surface in order to present a large area for efficient absorption of light energy. The leaf is supported away from the stem by a stem-like appendage called a petiole. The base of the petiole is attached to the stem at the node. The small angle formed between the petiole and the stem is called the leaf axil. An active or dormant bud or cluster of buds is usually located in the axil.​The leaf blade is composed of several layers. On the top and bottom is a layer of thickened, tough cells called the epidermis. The primary function of the epidermis is protection of leaf tissue. The way in which the cells in the epidermis are arranged determines the texture of the leaf surface. Some leaves have hairs that are an extension of certain cells of the epidermis. The African violet has so many hairs that the leaf feels like velvet.​




Part of the epidermis is the cuticle, which is composed of a waxy substance called cutin that protects the leaf from dehydration and prevents penetration of some diseases. The amount of cutin is a direct response to sunlight, increasing with increasing light intensity. For this reason, plants grown in the shade should be moved into full sunlight gradually, over a period of a few weeks, to allow the cutin layer to increase and to protect the leaves from the shock of rapid water loss or sun scald. The waxy cutin also repels water and can shed pesticides if spreader-sticker agents or soaps are not used. This is the reason many pesticide manufacturers include some sort of spray additive to adhere to or penetrate the cuticle.​




Some epidermal cells are capable of opening and closing. These cells guard the interior of the leaf and regulate the passage of water, oxygen, and carbon dioxide through the leaf. These regulatory cells are called guard cells. They protect openings in the leaf surface called stoma. The opening and closing of the cells are determined by the weather. Conditions that would cause large water losses from plants (high temperature, low humidity) stimulate guard cells to close. Mild weather conditions leave guard cells in an open condition. Guard cells will close in the absence of light. A large percentage of stomata occur in the lower epidermis.​The middle layer of the leaf is the mesophyll and is located between the upper and lower epidermis. This is the layer in which photosynthesis occurs. The mesophyll is divided into a dense upper layer, called the palisade layer, and a spongy lower layer that contains a great deal of air space, called the spongy mesophyll. The cells in these two layers contain chloroplasts which are the actual sites of the photosynthetic process.​ *Types of Leaves* 
A number of rather distinct types of leaves occur on plants. Leaves commonly referred to as foliage are the most common and conspicuous, and as previously stated, serve as the manufacturing centers where the photosynthetic activity of the plant occurs. *Scale leaves* or cataphylls are found on rhizomes and are also the small, leathery, protective leaves which enclose and protect buds. *Seed leaves*, or cotyledons, are modified leaves which are found on the embryonic plant and commonly serve as storage organs. *Spines and tendrils*, as found on barberry and pea, are specialized modified leaves which protect the plant or assist in supporting the stems. *Storage leaves*, as are found in bulbous plants and succulents, serve as food storage organs. Other specialized leaves include *bracts*, which are often brightly colored. The showy structures on dogwoods and poinsettias are bracts, not petals.​




Conifers, (pines, firs, spruce, laurel, etc.) have "needles" as leaves. They normally have waxy cuticles with sunken stomata to help deter desiccation. Also, most have resin canals on either side of the vascular system. The resin is thought to help deter and guard against insect damage.​*Venation of Leaves*  
The vascular bundles from the stem extend through the petiole and spread out into the blade. The term venation refers to the patterns in which the veins are distributed in the blade. Two principal types of venation are parallel-veined and net-veined.​




*Parallel-veined leaves* are those in which there are numerous veins which run essentially parallel to each other and are connected laterally by minute, straight veinlets. Possibly the most common type of parallel-veining is that found in plants of the grass family where the veins run from the base to the apex of the leaf. Another type of parallel-venation is found in plants such as banana, calla, and pickerelweed, where the parallel veins run laterally from the midrib. Parallel-veined leaves occur on plants which are part of the monocotyledon group.​


















*Net-veined leaves*, also called reticulate-veined, have veins which branch from the main midrib(s) and then subdivide into finer veinlets which then unite in a complicated network. This system of enmeshed veins gives the leaf more resistance to tearing than most parallel-veined leaves. Net-venation may be either pinnate or palmate. In pinnate venation, the veins extend laterally from the midrib to the edge, as in apple, cherry and peach. Palmate venation occurs in grape and maple leaves, where the principal veins extend outward, like the ribs of a fan, from the petiole near the base of the leaf blade. Net-veined leaves occur on plants which are part of the dicotyledon group.​*Leaves as a Means of Identifying Plants*  
Leaves are useful in identifying species and varieties of horticultural plants. The shape of the leaf blade and the type of margin are of major importance as identifying characteristics. *Simple* leaves are those in which the leaf blade is a single continuous unit. A compound leaf is composed of several separate leaflets arising from the same petiole. A deeply lobed leaf may appear similar to a *compound* leaf, but if the leaflets are connected by narrow bands of blade tissue it may be classified as a simple leaf. If the leaflets have separate stalks and if these stalks are jointed at the point of union with the main leafstalk, the leaf is considered to be compound. Some leaves may be doubly compound, having divisions of the leaflets.​ *[SIZE=-1]Apex[/SIZE]*

*[SIZE=-1]Base[/SIZE]*












*[SIZE=-1]Apex[/SIZE]*

*[SIZE=-1]Base[/SIZE]*


*Shape of the Leaf Blade* 
The following are some common shapes which are found in leaves and leaflets. 

_Linear_:Narrow, several times longer than wide; approximately the same width._Elliptical_:2 or 3 times longer than wide; tapering to an acute or rounded apex and base._Ovate_:Egg-shaped, basal portion wide; tapering toward the apex._Lanceolate_:Longer than wide; tapering toward the apex and base._Cordate_:Heart-shaped, broadly ovate; tapering to an acute apex, with the base turning in and forming a notch where the petiole is attached
*Shape of the Leaf Apex and Base* 
The following are common shapes found in leaves. 

*Apex *

_Acuminate_:Tapering to a long, narrow point._Acute_:Ending in an acute angle, with a sharp, but not acuminate, point.
*Base*
_Obtuse_:Tapering to a rounded edge._Sagittate_:Arrowhead-shaped, with two pointed lower lobes._Truncate_:Having a relatively square end.
 *Leaf Margins 
*Studying leaf margins is especially useful in the identification of certain varieties of fruit plants. 

_Entire_:A smooth edge with no teeth or notches._Sinuate_:Having a pronounced sinuous or wavy margin._Crenate_:Having rounded teeth._Dentate_:Having teeth ending in an acute angle, pointing outward._Serrate_:Having small, sharp teeth pointing toward the apex._Incised_:Margin cut into sharp, deep, irregular teeth or incisions._Lobed_:Incisions extend less than halfway to the midrib._Cleft_:Incisions extend more than halfway to the midrib.
 








*Leaf Arrangement along a Stem* 
The various ways leaves are arranged along a stem are also used to help identify plants. *Rosulate* arrangement is one in which the basal leaves form a rosette around the stem with extremely short nodes. *Opposite* leaves are positioned across the stem from each other, two leaves at each node. *Alternate* or spiral leaves are arranged in alternate steps along the stem with only one leaf at each node. *Whorled* leaves are arranged in circles along the stem.​*Leaves as Food*  
The leaf blade is the principal edible part of several horticultural crops including chive, collard, dandelion, endive, kale, leaf lettuce, mustard, parsley, spinach, and Swiss chard. The edible part of leek, onion, and Florence fennel is a cluster of fleshy leaf bases. The petiole of the leaf is the edible product in celery and rhubarb. In plants like Brussels sprouts, cabbage, and head lettuce, the leaves form a large, naked bud and are the edible product.​ 











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and while were at it


*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+2]BOTANY: PLANT PARTS AND FUNCTIONS [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][continued][/SIZE][/FONT]* 
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 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]MG Manual Reference [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]Ch. 1, pp. 15 - 16[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvitica][SIZE=-1][Plant Parts and Functions: stems | leaves | buds | roots | flowers | fruit | seeds][/SIZE][/FONT]


[h=3]BUDS [/h]A bud is an undeveloped shoot from which embryonic leaves or flower parts arise. The buds of trees and shrubs of the temperate zone typically develop a protective outer layer of small, leathery, bud scales. Annual plants and herbaceous perennials have naked buds in which the outer leaves are green and somewhat succulent.​Buds of many plants require exposure to a certain number of days below a critical temperature (rest) before they will resume growth in the spring. This time period varies for different plants. The flower buds of forsythia require a relatively short rest period and will grow at the first sign of warm weather. Many peach varieties require 700 to 1,000 hours of temperatures below 45°F (7°C) before they will resume growth. During rest, dormant buds can withstand very low temperatures, but after the rest period is satisfied, buds become more susceptible to weather conditions and can be damaged easily by cold temperatures or frost.​




A *leaf bud* is composed of a short stem with embryonic leaves, with bud primordia in the axils and at the apex. Such buds develop into leafy shoots. Leaf buds are often less plump and more pointed than flower buds.​A *flower bud* is composed of a short stem with embryonic flower parts. In some cases the flower buds of plants which produce fruit crops of economic importance are called fruit buds. This terminology is objectionable because flowers have the potential for developing into fruit. This development may never occur because of adverse weather conditions, lack of pollination or other unfavorable circumstances. The structure is a flower bud and should be so designated since it may never set fruit.​ 




*Types of Buds*
Buds are named for the location which they inhabit on the stem surface. Terminal buds are those which are located at the apex of a stem. Lateral buds are borne on the sides of the stem. Most lateral buds arise in the axis of a leaf and are called axillary buds. In some instances more than one bud is formed. Adventitious buds are those which arise at sites other than in the terminal or axillary position. Adventitious buds may develop from the internode of the stem; at the edge of a leaf blade; from callus tissue at the cut end of a stem or root; or laterally from the roots of a plant.​*Buds as Food*
Enlarged buds or parts of buds form the edible portion of some horticultural crops. Cabbage and head lettuce are examples of unusually large terminal buds. Succulent axillary buds of Brussels sprouts become the edible part of this plant. In the case of globe artichoke, the fleshy basal portion of the bracts of the flower bud are eaten along with the solid stem portion of the bud. Broccoli is the most important horticultural plant in which edible flower buds are consumed. In this case, portions of the stem as well as small leaves associated with the flower buds are eaten.​

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*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+2]BOTANY: PLANT PARTS AND FUNCTIONS [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][continued][/SIZE][/FONT]* 
 *[FONT=Arial,Helvitica][SIZE=-1]Previous[/SIZE][/FONT]*
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]MG Manual Reference [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]Ch. 1, pp. 16 - 19[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvitica][SIZE=-1][Plant Parts and Functions: stems | leaves | buds | roots | flowers | fruit | seeds][/SIZE][/FONT]







[h=3]ROOTS [/h]A thorough knowledge of the root system of plants is essential if their growth, flowering, and fruiting responses are to be understood. The structure and growth habits of roots have a pronounced effect on the size and vigor of the plant, method of propagation, adaptation to certain soil types, and response to cultural practices and irrigation. The roots of certain vegetable crops are important as food. Roots typically originate from the lower portion of a plant or cutting. They possess a root cap, have no nodes and never bear leaves or flowers directly. The principal functions of roots are to absorb nutrients and moisture, to anchor the plant in the soil, to furnish physical support for the stem, and to serve as food storage organs. In some plants they may be used as a means of propagation.​*Types of Roots*
A *primary* (radicle) root originates at the lower end of the embryo of a seedling plant. A taproot is formed when the primary root continues to elongate downward. This makes them difficult to transplant and necessitates planting only in deep, well-drained soil. The taproot of carrot, parsnip, and salsify is the principal edible part of these crops.​ 




A *lateral*, or secondary root is a side or branch root which arises from another root. A *fibrous* root system is one in which the primary root ceases to elongate, leading to the development of numerous lateral roots. These then branch repeatedly and form the feeding root system of the plant. A fibrous root is one which remains small in diameter because of a lack of significant cambial activity. One factor which causes shrubs and dwarf trees to remain smaller than standard trees is the lower activity rate of the cambium tissue which produces a smaller root system.​If plants that normally develop a taproot are undercut so that the taproot is severed early in the plants life, the root will lose its taproot characteristic and develop a fibrous root system. This is done commercially in nurseries so that trees, which naturally have tap roots, will develop a compact, fibrous root system. This allows a higher rate of transplanting success.​ The quantity and distribution of plant roots is very important because these two factors have a major influence on the absorption of moisture and nutrients. The depth and spread of the roots is dependent on the inherent growth characteristics of the plant and the texture and structure of the soil. Roots will penetrate much deeper in a loose, well-drained soil than in a heavy, poorly-drained soil. A dense, compacted layer in the soil will restrict or stop root growth.​During early development, a seedling plant nutrients and moisture from the few inches of soil surrounding it. Therefore, the early growth of most horticultural crops which are seeded in rows benefits from band applications of fertilizer, placed several inches to each side and slightly below the seeds.​As plants become well-established, the root system develops laterally and usually extends far beyond the spread of the branches. For most cultivated crops roots meet and overlap between the rows. The greatest concentration of fibrous roots occurs in the top foot of soil but significant numbers of laterals may grow downward from these roots to provide an effective absorption system a couple of feet deep.​*Parts of a Root*
Internally, there are three major parts of a root. The *meristem* is at the tip and manufactures new cells. It is an area of cell division and growth. Behind it is the *zone of elongation*, in which cells increase in size through food and water absorption. These cells by increasing in size, push the root through the soil. The third major root part is the *maturation zone*, in which cells undergo changes in order to become specific tissues such as epidermis, cortex, or vascular tissue. The epidermis is the outermost layer of cells surrounding the root. These cells are responsible for the absorption of water and minerals dissolved in water. Cortex cells are involved in the movement of water from the epidermis and in food storage. A layer of suberized (a fatty material in some cells), known as the Casparian strips, has regulatory effect on the types of minerals absorbed and transported by the roots to stems and leaves.​Vascular tissues conduct food and water and are located in the center of the root. However, some monocots have the vascular system of their roots distributed around the root center.​ Externally there are two areas of importance. Root hairs are found along the main root and perform much of the actual work of water and nutrient absorption. The root cap is the outermost tip of the root, and consists of cells that are sloughed off as the root grows through the soil. The root cap covers and protects the meristem and also senses gravity and directs in what direction the root grows.​ *Roots as Food*
The enlarged root is the edible portion of several vegetable crops. The sweet potato is a swollen root, called a tuberous root, which serves as a food storage area for the plant. Carrot, parsnip, salsify, and radish are elongated taproots.​

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*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+2]BOTANY: PLANT PARTS AND FUNCTIONS [/SIZE][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][continued][/SIZE][/FONT]* 
 *[FONT=Arial,Helvitica][SIZE=-1]Previous[/SIZE][/FONT]*
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]MG Manual Reference [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-2]Ch. 1, pp. 19 - 22[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvitica][SIZE=-1][Plant Parts and Functions: stems | leaves | buds | roots | flowers | fruit | seeds][/SIZE][/FONT]


*Naming Plants*Binomial nomenclature is the scientific system of giving a double name to plants and animals. The first, or genus name, is followed by a descriptive or species name. Modern plant classification, or taxonomy, is based on a system of binomial nomenclature developed by the Swedish physician Carolus Linnaeus (1707-177. Prior to Linnaeus, people had tried to base classification on leaf shape, plant size, flower color, etc. None of these systems proved workable. Linnaeuss revolutionary approach was to base classification on the flowers and/or reproductive parts of a plant and to give plants a genus and species name. This has proven to be the best system since flowers are the plant part least influenced by environmental changes. For this reason a knowledge of the flower and its parts is essential to plant identification.



[h=3]FLOWERS [/h]The sole function of the flower, which is generally the showiest part of the plant, is sexual reproduction. Its attractiveness and fragrance have not evolved to please man but to ensure the continuance of the plant species. Fragrance and color are devices to attract pollinators that play an important role in the reproductive process.​*Parts of the Flower*
As the reproductive part of the plant the flower contains the male pollen and/or the female ovule plus accessory parts such as petals, sepals, and nectar glands.​The *pistil* is the female part of the plant. It is generally shaped like a bowling pin and located in the center of the flower. It consists of the stigma, style, and ovary. The stigma is located at the top, and is connected to the ovary by the style. The ovary contains the eggs which reside in the ovules. After the egg is fertilized the ovule develops into a seed.​The *stamen* is the male reproductive organ. It consists of a pollen sac (anther) and a long supporting filament. This filament holds the anther in position so the pollen it contains may be disbursed by wind or carried to the stigma by insects, birds or bats.​*Sepals* are small green, leaflike structures on the base of the flower which protect the flower bud. The sepals collectively are called the calyx.​*Petals* are highly colored portions of the flower. They may contain perfume as well as nectar glands. The petals collectively are called the corolla. The number of petals on a flower is often used in the identification of plant families and genera. Flowers of dicots typically have sepals and/or petals in multiples of four or five. Monocots typically have these floral parts in multiples of three.​*Types of Flowers*
If a flower has a stamen, pistils, petals, and sepals, it is called a *complete* flower. If one of these parts is missing, the flower is designated *incomplete*. If a flower contains functional stamens and pistils, it is called a *perfect* flower. (Stamen and pistils are considered the essential parts of a flower.) If either of the essential parts is lacking, the flower is *imperfect*.​*Pistillate* (female) flowers are those which possess a functional pistil(s) but lack stamens. *Staminate* (male) flowers contain stamens but no pistils. Because cross-fertilization combines different genetic material and produces stronger seed, cross-pollinated plants are usually more successful than self-pollinated plants. Consequently, more plants reproduce by cross-pollination than self-pollination.​ As previously mentioned, there are plants which bear only male flowers (staminate plants) or bear only female flowers (pistillate plants). Species in which the sexes are separated into staminate and pistillate plants are called *dioecious*. Most holly trees and pistachio trees are dioecious; therefore, to obtain berries, it is necessary to have female and male trees. *Monoecious* plants are those which have separate male and female flowers on the same plant. Corn plants and pecan trees are examples. Some plants bear only male flowers at the beginning of the growing season, but later develop flowers of both sexes; examples are cucumbers and squash.​*How Seeds Form*
Pollination is the transfer of pollen from an anther to a stigma. This may occur by wind or by pollinators. Wind-pollinated flowers lack showy floral parts and nectar since they don't need to attract a pollinator. Flowers are brightly colored or patterned and contain a fragrance or nectar when they must attract insects, animals, or birds. In the process of searching for nectar these pollinators will transfer pollen from flower to flower.​ The stigma contains a chemical which stimulates the pollen, causing it to grow a long tube down the inside of the style to the ovules inside the ovary. The sperm is released by the pollen grain and fertilization typically occurs. Fertilization is the union of the male sperm nucleus (from the pollen grain) and the female egg (in the ovule). If fertilization is successful, the ovule will develop into a seed.​




*Types of Inflorescences*
Some plants bear only one flower per stem and are called solitary flowers. Other plants produce an *inflorescence*, a term which refers to a cluster of flowers and how they are arranged on a floral stem. Most inflorescences may be classified into two groups, racemes and cymes.​




In the *racemose* group, the florets, which are individual flowers in an inflorescence, bloom from the bottom of the stem and progress toward the top. Some examples of racemose inflorescence include spike, raceme, corymb, umbel, and head. A spike is an inflorescence in which many stemless florets are attached to an elongated flower stem or peduncle, an example being gladiolus. A raceme is similar to a spike except the florets are borne on small stems attached to the peduncle. An example of a raceme inflorescence is the snapdragon. A corymb is made up of florets whose stalks and pedicels are arranged at random along the peduncle in such a way that the florets create a flat, round top. Yarrow has a corymb inflorescence. An umbel is similar except that the pedicels all arise from one point on the peduncle. Dill has an umbel inflorescence. A head or composite inflorescence is made up of numerous stemless florets which is characteristic of daisy inflorescence.​




In the *cyme* group, the top floret opens first and blooms downward along the peduncle. A dischasium cyme has florets opposite each other along the peduncle. Babys breath inflorescence is an example. A helicoid cyme is one in which the lower florets are all on the same side of the peduncle, examples being freesia and statice inflorescences. A scorpioid cyme is one in which the florets are alternate to each other along the peduncle. Examples are tomato and potato inflorescences.​

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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> bro, i understand the concept behind innovation but like... there are scientist out there already doing all kind of tests... there is proof about this topic already.... reports have been submitted over and over but people want to prove their point no matter what...


hahaha ah shit got you also Panda, I was totally being sarcastic.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Finally the spoiling!!


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## Figong (Jan 29, 2013)

Damn, I just got hit with Horticulture/Botany 101 again! lol


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> hahaha ah shit got you also Panda, I was totally being sarcastic.


ah, hahah... shame on me.. i'm go enjoy high kite post..


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> i should have quoted budbrewer, he mentioned his frustratioin with the discussion of what a leafes function truly was.


If you would actually quote me instead of making up your own about me you might have a leg to stand on but as usual the you resort to some falsehood insult because you can't prove your point the leaves grow back and keep feeding the plant.


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> If you would actually quote me instead of making up your own about me you might have a leg to stand on but as usual the you resort to some falsehood insult because you can't prove your point the leaves grow back and keep feeding the plant.


I said I should have quoted you.

I don't need to stab myself in the eye to know that it will effect my eyesight.


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

*BudBrewer Wrote : "I don't appreciate people coming into this defoliation thread and clogging it up with solar panel logic or just plan insults for pages on end without any real experience on this topic. *"

THIS IS NOT THE DEFOLIATION THREAD.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

oHsiN666 said:


> i want to say this is my best grow to date. the fan leafs usually never got to big or just died off prematurely. well, this round they are huge!! almost too huge. *i have heard* that fan leafs produce energy which provided the plant growth and nutrient flow. or something along them lines. *dont quote me.* but i heard they help a lot more then people think. is this true? is it counterproductive to cut off the lower to *mid huger larger fan leafs*? what if they are blocking light? i have chopped off the lower 40-50% growth. i have topped my plants, or FIMmed i should say, at least 2-3 times. so they are quite bushy. so there is not many fan leafs left, *but the ones that are left are big and are blocking light*. the ones up top are blocking light to the middle of the plant. *i dont want to ruin a quite possibly perfect grow.* but i would like light to penetrate better.


May I remind you of the noob and his questions that started all this stupid shit lol.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

This is a good post I know plants need leaves I also know when you take them off they grow back very fast from many more places then if they were allowed to grow naturally I don't advocate keeping a plant leaf free they need there leaf but if you want tighter branching defoliate just give them a week or two between it doesn't slow them down any more then any other pruning method topping slows a plant down for a while as does suppercropping listing even lollypopping.


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> *BudBrewer Wrote : "I don't appreciate people coming into this defoliation thread and clogging it up with solar panel logic or just plan insults for pages on end without any real experience on this topic. *"
> 
> THIS IS NOT THE DEFOLIATION THREAD.


*Advanced Marijuana Cultivation*[h=1]Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???[/h]*in the*[h=2]The Grow Room[/h]
*Nope dont see any *[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]defoliation[/FONT]* in the subject..nope*


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> *BudBrewer Wrote : "I don't appreciate people coming into this defoliation thread and clogging it up with solar panel logic or just plan insults for pages on end without any real experience on this topic. *"
> 
> THIS IS NOT THE DEFOLIATION THREAD.


It's one of many in the TrollItUp cosmos.


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Kite High said:


> *Advanced Marijuana Cultivation**Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???*
> 
> *in the**The Grow Room*
> 
> ...


cues up Black Sabbath's "Sweet Leaf".


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## bde0001 (Jan 29, 2013)

UB, is fan leaf stems being really red a sign of a deficiency?


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 29, 2013)

Well damn lol


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 29, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> UB, is fan leaf stems being really red a sign of a deficiency?


Read all kinds of misnomers on this one, everything from a deficiency of N or P to indica genes. As long as your plants are healthy, don't worry about it.

UB


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> May I remind you of the noob and his questions that started all this stupid shit lol.


"almost to Huge" LOL I love that.

I know myself and a few others did learn some great basic bontany lessons from you and couple other people so no pain no gain lol.


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## Figong (Jan 29, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> UB, is fan leaf stems being really red a sign of a deficiency?


Potential Nutes... definitely keep an eye on the phosphorus.. look at your pH and see if there's anything being locked out... or it could be strain specific, if this is the first plant of this type you've had.


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## Figong (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Read all kinds of misnomers on this one, everything from a deficiency of N or P to indica genes. As long as your plants are healthy, don't worry about it.
> 
> UB


Agreed, what he said.. I forgot to mention N


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## bde0001 (Jan 29, 2013)

Oh, well most of my plant is fine and nice dark green but all the little new shoots that are coming up are yellowish but besides that it looks completely healthy. Didn't know if I could take the symptom of yellowing of the leaves and the red stems to pin point the problem, or at least have a ball park idea. But MOSTLY shes nice and green.Im really thinking its potassium/nitrogen def. I started feeding her higher concentrations of nutes. I'll guess only time will tell if she picks up


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> UB, is fan leaf stems being really red a sign of a deficiency?


nvm i take it back... misread..


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> *BudBrewer Wrote : "I don't appreciate people coming into this defoliation thread and clogging it up with solar panel logic or just plan insults for pages on end without any real experience on this topic. *"
> 
> THIS IS NOT THE DEFOLIATION THREAD.


Of course it is "Blockers of light or energy producers???" Blocker of light means blocking branches and later bud sites of light OK are you still with me then the other side is are they energy producers and yes they are but when removed they will they actually replace themselves from the small branches making tighter nodes more branching and more leaf mass.

Now if any of you have actually done it you would see the obvious difference in plants you done nothing and haven't contributed anything but insults because that is all you have without experience.


----------



## Figong (Jan 29, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> Oh, well most of my plant is fine and nice dark green but all the little new shoots that are coming up are yellowish but besides that it looks completely healthy. Didn't know if I could take the symptom of yellowing of the leaves and the red stems to pin point the problem, or at least have a ball park idea. But MOSTLY shes nice and green.Im really thinking its potassium/nitrogen def. I started feeding her higher concentrations of nutes. I'll guess only time will tell if she picks up


She won't pick up w/more nutes if the pH is off enough to lock out part/all of them - is why I mentioned it. What pH is she currently at?


----------



## Bakatare666 (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I have a question... why not remove fan leaves before they even develop? you guys know the anatomy and shape you are looking for... why wait until it has collected and used valuable energy.. even tho i still think... leaf and roots together.. more is merrier.. just my question for leaf molesters


Dude, if leaves 'collect and use energy', what makes energy for the plant to grow buds?


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Of course it is "Blockers of light or energy producers???" Blocker of light means blocking branches and later bud sites of light OK are you still with me then the other side is are they energy producers and yes they are but when removed they will they actually replace themselves from the small branches making tighter nodes more branching and more leaf mass.
> 
> Now if any of you have actually done it you would see the obvious difference in plants you done nothing and haven't contributed anything but insults because that is all you have without experience.


Uncle Ben has, so have many others. no man is an island.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Bakatare666 said:


> Dude, if leaves 'collect and use energy', what makes energy for the plant to grow buds?


What? I'm referring before fan leaves reaches their peak... Fully grown developed leaves...they just don't appear all of the sudden... Do they?


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

So you are riding Beny's coat tails with no experience of you own like most of the insulters just going on a theory you really don't understand because you have never done it. Now Beny's limited experience with allegedly doing it once with a sativa all the pics he put up look like the plants have been defoliated.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Slab said:


> Uncle Ben has, so have many others. no man is an island.


Except for your twisted uncle that you put on an Island good call can you leave him there.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> I have a question... why not remove fan leaves before they even develop? you guys know the anatomy and shape you are looking for... why wait until it has collected and used valuable energy.. even tho i still think... leaf and roots together.. more is merrier.. just my question for leaf molesters


Dude, how would a plant grow is you never allow leaves to grow? You can't be serious.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Dude, how would a plant grow is you never allow leaves to grow? You can't be serious.


im serious... I'm not talking about removing every single one of them tho.. Are you serious?


----------



## Bakatare666 (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> What? I'm referring before fan leaves reaches their peak... Fully grown developed leaves...they just don't appear all of the sudden... Do they?


No, they don't 'just appear', you're right.
My apologies, I missed the part where you said 'before they reach their peak'.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Dude, how would a plant grow is you never allow leaves to grow? You can't be serious.


I know they think the whole point of this is to never have any fan leaves but if you have never tried how can you know it is a balance.


----------



## Sincerely420 (Jan 29, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> im serious... I'm not talking about removing every single one of them tho.. Are you serious?


Too serious lol.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> Too serious lol.


Lol I know..


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## tripstick (Jan 29, 2013)

Growing style has a lot to do with this. There is no universally correct answer to removal vs. retention. Here are a couple of pertinent points. Leaves have the majority of the plant's chlorophyll which allows the conversion of light to sugars. 2. If any light reaches the ground it is a loss of potential. 3. Top buds (closer to the light source) are usually dramatically more developed than lower bud. In my experience, when I pull fan leaves I sacrifice energy to my prime growing location to allow lesser development further from my lumin source. My yield of high end bud suffers for a little more popcorn. I prefer allowing nature to work her magic.


----------



## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> So you are riding Beny's coat tails with no experience of you own like most of the insulters just going on a theory you really don't understand because you have never done it. Now Beny's limited experience with allegedly doing it once with a sativa all the pics he put up look like the plants have been defoliated.


Why would I need to fail for myself when some else has? I would never do what you are doing to a living species.

even it would some get me more bio mass, cause damn sure isn't t making as much resin as an unstressed plant. You are abusing that plant, it is survival instinct that is making that branching. 

You need 2 chew on some of that leaf and chill out.


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## elkukupanda (Jan 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> May I remind you of the noob and his questions that started all this stupid shit lol.


Gotta love the highlights


----------



## bde0001 (Jan 29, 2013)

Figong said:


> She won't pick up w/more nutes if the pH is off enough to lock out part/all of them - is why I mentioned it. What pH is she currently at?


currently Im at 5.8 ph in coco.
I was watering with 6-6.2 ph.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

Defoliation is done weeks apart so the resin production is backwards for two reasons one the earlier defoliation has completely grown back before flower then another 3 weeks into flower so five weeks between defoliation then is half defoliated one day then done again but only removing half of the leaf mass total mostly just large leaf leaving plenty of leaves and exposing many immature pale buds to light that makes them plump up grow and harden no stress and many more weeks to go so the very mild stress they had month ago is good and will not effect your resin in the negative only the positive of getting more light to spots that were shaded so they can get more size and resin.


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## Slab (Jan 29, 2013)

You have done this how many times?


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## tripstick (Jan 29, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> currently Im at 5.8 ph in coco.
> I was watering with 6-6.2 ph.


That's pretty acidic. What are you growing in that?


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

bde0001 said:


> currently Im at 5.8 ph in coco.
> I was watering with 6-6.2 ph.


it will be fine...just feed waster more often...no fear of overwatering in coco


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## Kite High (Jan 29, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Defoliation is done weeks apart so the resin production is backwards for two reasons one the earlier defoliation has completely grown back before flower then another 3 weeks into flower so five weeks between defoliation then is half defoliated one day then done again but only removing half of the leaf mass total mostly just large leaf leaving plenty of leaves and exposing many immature pale buds to light that makes them plump up grow and harden no stress and many more weeks to go so the very mild stress they had month ago is good and will not effect your resin in the negative only the positive of getting more light to spots that were shaded so they can get more size and resin.


dude if it makes you happy and you like the results do what you do...but please for your own sake stop explaining it because you either do not come across accurately with your info or it is what you made up in your mind...its all good for you.....


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 29, 2013)

It does make me happy I can control the way the plant grows when I'm happy with the size and structure I flower with tons of colas instead of just one cola and a few branches


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## jack's soil grow (Jan 30, 2013)

Kite High said:


> And have less overall yield. Yay for you


so you think topping reduces your yeild or more main bud sites ?
and hear a top view of the plant


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> So you are riding Beny's coat tails with no experience of you own like most of the insulters just going on a theory you really don't understand because you have never done it. Now Beny's limited experience with allegedly doing it once with a sativa all the pics he put up look like the plants have been defoliated.


What's this crap about "experience"? I doubt if you were even born when I was gardening back in the early 70's.

You have not yet produced a scientifically controlled experiment conducted by an independent, non partisan, bonafide horticultural source...... and if you think I'm stupid enough to accept ANY cannabis forum testimony and anecodal evidence as other than pure conjecture, delusionary chest beating bullshit, you're crazy. Now we have folks trying to beef up their pro defoliation argument saying it decreases internodal length. It's laughable. Hate to clue you in, but calyxes aka flowers do not require direct light to develop nor are they producers of food that the plant uses for tissue production. Now, if you want to strip them just to watch them regrow, knock yourself out.

Since it's long been forgotten by all the noise on this issue, I'll repeat what a real professional, R.C. Clarke, who wrote THE book on cannabis botany and anatomy said. If you don't want to believe a bonafide professional as opposed to being drawn to a bunch of cannabis forum noobies who see what they want or expect to see, you go right on brother. 

This is a excerpt on this never ending discussion that comes with every new crop of noobs that think they've discovered something kewl. The following excerpt is at least 15 years old for example posted at the first internet website forum on cannabis Marihemp.com aka cannabis.com. I moderated 6 forums FWIW.

_R. C. Clarke author of Marijuana Botany: An Advanced Study, the Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) Large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed,

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering , synthesized in the fan leaves during the long non-inductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the non-inductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering,

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind "leafing" have any validity. 

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. They do create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant).

He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

He goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity._


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Defoliation is done weeks apart so the resin production is backwards for two reasons one the earlier defoliation has completely grown back before flower then another 3 weeks into flower so five weeks between defoliation then is half defoliated one day then done again but only removing half of the leaf mass total mostly just large leaf leaving plenty of leaves and exposing many immature pale buds to light that makes them plump up grow and harden no stress and many more weeks to go so the very mild stress they had month ago is good and will not effect your resin in the negative only the positive of getting more light to spots that were shaded so they can get more size and resin.


Say what? Dats wat I'm talkin' bout folks! 

How about using some punctuation when posing your "real world experiences".


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

It's clear you have difficulty reading and understanding anything you did your learning years ago and have closed your mind since.


----------



## Figong (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Say what? Dats wat I'm talkin' bout folks!
> 
> How about using some punctuation when posing your "real world experiences".


I thought a record was trying to be set for the longest run-on sentence, personally.


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## chuck estevez (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It's clear you have difficulty reading and understanding anything you did your learning years ago and have closed your mind since.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It's clear you have difficulty reading and understanding anything you did your learning years ago and have closed your mind since.


Being a commercial niche farmer, I'm still learning. My current practices have evolved from my failures and successes. That is what's called experience and knowledge. You will get there in due time.

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What's this crap about "experience"? I doubt if you were even born when I was gardening back in the early 70's.
> 
> *I have plenty of experience in general and with this topic I have done it many times over the years anytime I thought a plant was to tall or thin deleafing will bring out more branching but since YOU have no experience with this you don't know shit.
> *
> ...


*Yes any alteration will affect productivity if done with experince it will increase there are many different methods of plant manipulation that have been used with success just because you have closed your mind off to anything but topping that shocks a plant for a week your cutting off the main growth.
*


----------



## chuck estevez (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> *Yes any alteration will affect productivity if done with experince it will increase there are many different methods of plant manipulation that have been used with success just because you have closed your mind off to anything but topping that shocks a plant for a week your cutting off the main growth.
> *


Very scientific. you did a great job of proving your point.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It's clear you have difficulty reading and understanding anything you did your learning years ago and have closed your mind since.


BB, this is gonna come across as crass as I know you're proud of your garden, but, after reviewing your results, the facts speak for themselves. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/602889-defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-12.html#post8487106

Based on what I'm seeing, I'd say this is either your first gardening experience or damn close to it. It's obvious that defoilation is working against you, not for you, as it should. 

Here's a few shots of one my indoor gardens at different stages of development, grown naturally, 2002.









....and the results from a garden footprint of about 30 s.f. All but 2 of those baggies are 1 gal. and contain at least 4 oz. of bud.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> *Yes any alteration will affect productivity if done with experince it will increase there are many different methods of plant manipulation that have been used with success just because you have closed your mind off to anything but topping that shocks a plant for a week your cutting off the main growth.
> *


Talk English, please.

Just for the record, I don't give a shit about Ethiopian mustard or cotton barely getting by under drought conditions. None of your cherry picked examples apply.

UB


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## jack's soil grow (Jan 30, 2013)

so I should have not train my plant from this 




to this ( week in 6 flower)


so scrog will reduce your yeild, is that what you are saying and stop topping you plants you are lossing yeild 
great point you have there


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> BB, this is gonna come across as crass as I know you're proud of your garden, but, after reviewing your results, the facts speak for themselves. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/602889-defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-12.html#post8487106
> 
> Based on what I'm seeing, I'd say this is either your first gardening experience or damn close to it. It's obvious that defoilation is working against you, not for you, as it should.
> 
> ...


Yes it's fine looking bud but still smaller less dense plants then mine show me a 4 foot dense fat bush grown indoors better than mine.
That's a nice pile of bud from a 4x8 footprint with at least two lights you didn't break the two gram per watt probably not even one gram per watt so the point is you have grown some bud we have something in common.
I also believe in second harvests and keeping leaves green not overdosing P also no trimming branches. I only feed stuff I have made myself not just mixing bottled nutes it takes some knowledge to feed without a relying on a dosage on a bottle or ppm tester.

I have grown plenty of pounds over ten years so this in not my first plant just the first in years but I'm very happy with my walls of weed


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

jack's soil grow said:


> so I should have not train my plant from this
> 
> 
> View attachment 2503195
> ...


He Is just frustrated that he gets proven wrong on a regular basis he does his own plant maniplulation but has no experience with this so he gets defensive seeing fine examples of defoliated bud.

Having many different studys presented proving it is a valid method to increase production of many different plants should have people with a will to learn curious instead of dismissive because of a preconceived theory like the world is flat.


----------



## Izoc666 (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> BB, this is gonna come across as crass as I know you're proud of your garden, but, after reviewing your results, the facts speak for themselves. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/602889-defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-12.html#post8487106
> 
> Based on what I'm seeing, I'd say this is either your first gardening experience or damn close to it. It's obvious that defoilation is working against you, not for you, as it should.
> 
> ...


I spot the thai strain in the baggies ? its tough to grow those pure sativa with massive buds ! and very NICE nugs, love to smoke those excellent strain ! 

happy gardening.


----------



## akula (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Talk English, please.
> 
> Just for the record, I don't give a shit about Ethiopian mustard or cotton barely getting by under drought conditions. None of your cherry picked examples apply.
> 
> UB


He has already been informed, I doubt he will start listening now. I don't remember who, but someone even went through the time to break each study down and show what the hypothesis and conclusions of each one. These studies might as well have been done on rocks and dust of Mars and he would still find a sentence or two that seemed to fit his narrative. Knowing that nobody is actually going to take the time to read them is all the ammo needed to get everyone referring to them like gospel.


----------



## elkukupanda (Jan 30, 2013)

Yes, some claims here are so far frrom.. whatever.... if you people want to claim that you get shorter internodes because of leaf removal.. hate to break the bad news but all you doing is decreasing the photosynthetic rate.. might as well starve em.. or not water them... or the other many things that will take a plant from reaching it's maximum potential... as long there is no serious alteration within certain hormones.. internodes length should be fine the the way they are programmed to be..


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Yes it's fine looking bud but still smaller less dense plants then mine show me a 4 foot dense fat bush grown indoors better than mine.
> That's a nice pile of bud from a 4x8 footprint with at least two lights you didn't break the two gram per watt probably not even one gram per watt so the point is you have grown some bud we have something in common.
> I also believe in second harvests and keeping leaves green not overdosing P also no trimming branches. I only feed stuff I have made myself not just mixing bottled nutes it takes some knowledge to feed without a relying on a dosage on a bottle or ppm tester.
> 
> I have grown plenty of pounds over ten years so this in not my first plant just the first in years but I'm very happy with my walls of weed


Gram/watt, another cannabis forum bunch of loose talk. There is no such credible measure considering a hundred factors are involved. Just more noobie fodder.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 30, 2013)

Izoc666 said:


> I spot the thai strain in the baggies ? its tough to grow those pure sativa with massive buds ! and very NICE nugs, love to smoke those excellent strain !
> 
> happy gardening.


ThaiTanic as marked from The Flying Dutchmen, a well respected breeder. They used one of my photos on their cover page. Think it was the one showing the cola below. This is one of the few seedbanks I would trust if I was to order beans again. For example, their O. Haze is about as true to form as real genetics get, not some mutt that folks attach the Haze buzzword to in order to make a sale. Their Haze is the real thing from Sam the Skunkman's collected genetics 30 or so years ago and is a pure sativa hybrid. No indica.

Also shown is some of the best pot I've ever grown and smoked. It was a cross I did between a fine male Peak19 (Sagamartha) and beautiful original C99 from the Bros. Grimm. It is photo #3 in the previous post and if memory serves me correct I got around 8 oz off that plant. 



Been doing second harvests for many years. Here's some of the TT secondary harvest.



Happy gardening tambien!


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## Slab (Jan 30, 2013)

Only argument that can be made for defoliation would be if the price of greens keeps rising, feta and fan leaf omelette yummie.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Gram/watt, another cannabis forum bunch of loose talk. There is no such credible measure considering a hundred factors are involved. Just more noobie fodder.
> 
> UB


So that would be a very low gram to watt ratio you had then. Yes there are many factors but it is a simple equation you might prefer kilowatt hour to gram but your just talkin shit as usually.
Im still waiting for your big indoor plant picture if you look around you'll find one to cut and paste.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

akula said:


> He already been informed, I doubt he will start listening now. I don't remember who, but someone even went through the time to break each study down and show what the hypothesis and conclusions of each one. These studies might as well have been done on rocks and dust of Mars and he would still find a sentence or two that seemed to fit his narrative. Knowing that nobody is actually going to take the time to read them is all the ammo needed to get everyone referring to them like gospel.


They haven't been disproved at all in one study under one condition they lost some yield But then were double in another condition.Clearly science and reading i realize they are over your head all you need is untested opinon to base your point on.

I study and try things I do it insead of just thinking it can't be done and this works very well


----------



## Kite High (Jan 30, 2013)

jack's soil grow said:


> so you think topping reduces your yeild or more main bud sites ?
> and hear a top view of the plant


I top as well...where are your plants leaves?


----------



## akula (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> They haven't been disproved at all in one study under one condition they lost some yield But then were double in another condition.Clearly science and reading i realize they are over your head all you need is untested opinon to base your point on.
> 
> I study and try things I do it insead of just thinking it can't be done and this works very well


Dis-proven as to your interpretation and cherry picking quotes out of them. 



Slab said:


> these studies don't advocate defoliation for increasing yeild. they describe the effects of defoliation.
> 
> also how to get the same with less ( water, fertilizer etc.)
> 
> ...


----------



## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

Oh ya you just disproved everything lol.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What's this crap about "experience"? I doubt if you were even born when I was gardening back in the early 70's.
> 
> You have not yet produced a scientifically controlled experiment conducted by an independent, non partisan, bonafide horticultural source...... and if you think I'm stupid enough to accept ANY cannabis forum testimony and anecodal evidence as other than pure conjecture, delusionary chest beating bullshit, you're crazy. Now we have folks trying to beef up their pro defoliation argument saying it decreases internodal length. It's laughable. Hate to clue you in, but calyxes aka flowers do not require direct light to develop nor are they producers of food that the plant uses for tissue production. Now, if you want to strip them just to watch them regrow, knock yourself out.
> 
> ...


Too bad you paraphrased and left all the "possibly" and may" type of language out of the "quote":







Also, it kind of seems like this statement contradicts what you are always bashing noobs for (green leaves in flower): _
Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant).

_
So, who's right now, Uncle Ben or Mr Clarke?


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Gram/watt, another cannabis forum bunch of loose talk. There is no such credible measure considering a hundred factors are involved. Just more noobie fodder.
> 
> UB


Agreed. ...


----------



## akula (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Oh ya you just disproved everything lol.


You cant use a study that was designed to help farmers in drought to continue to raise crops, that just so happened to show that if you defoliate, you use less H20, and the plant can better survive, as example of defoliation to increase yields. Yeah that pretty much proves that either your being disingenuous or unable to properly digest the information that was presented.


----------



## Slab (Jan 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Too bad you paraphrased and left all the "possibly" and may" type of language out of the "quote":
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are both correct, you are really reaching with minutia.


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

The rest of them aren't you are only cherry picking what you want I posted links to the studies they all show a yield increase.


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## Kite High (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> The rest of them aren't you are only cherry picking what you want I posted links to the studies they all show a yield increase.


later ya'll...have fun with that


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## elkukupanda (Jan 30, 2013)

The more I read... The more I see this defoliation topic useless... Even to a molecular level.... Less leaves... Less diffusion... I'm glad scientist aren't defoliated now days..


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## akula (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> The rest of them aren't you are only cherry picking what you want I posted links to the studies they *all show a yield increase.*


No they dont. In fact I cannot find one study there that is strictly talking about increased yield through defoliation. 

Yes there are studies about defoliation through cow consumption and the effects of their flatulence to increase C02. 

Yes there is a study that shows the effects of defoliation to put off silking in corn. What correlation do you make there?

Yes their is a study about diminishing defoliation loses, caused by insects, simulated through targeted insect defoliation to minimize yield loss. I dont think you want to use that one right? Since it part of the hypothesis is that defoliation, via insects cause damaged loss of crops because reduced biomass. 

As far as I can tell, every study you listed is trying to find ways to minimize yield loss, by optimizing defoliation...not because its a super sweet gardening trick....but because defoliation is a problem certain crops are faced with in certain environments naturally. 

So which one should we focus on? I am not going to waste all day rummaging through studies that have no significant value to your point.


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## Slab (Jan 30, 2013)

Great flick about plants , it show a plants reaction to being cut. Then they used ether on it, completely put the plant "asleep".
cut into and no reaction.

hoping it will help us treat them a little better than we have been. They will reward us for treating them with more care.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=DLJDJOaTfWI&desktop_uri=/watch?v=DLJDJOaTfWI


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 30, 2013)

That bit of writing was a master piece I can see how your having trouble understanding just read everything three times and work at you'll get it one day.
it might even be easier if you just try it then you could see for yourself that would help you understand


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## Slab (Jan 30, 2013)

Brought you live from the grow box on his Crawford, Texas ranch..." The Decider"


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## akula (Jan 30, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That bit of writing was a master piece I can see how your having trouble understanding just read everything three times and work at you'll get it one day.
> it might even be easier if you just try it then you could see for yourself that would help you understand


Was that comment directed toward me? You're giving me grammar lessons? Sweet, people in glass houses dude (and your house is pretty flimsy glass bud). 

But more importantly, I guess this means you are unwilling/unable to direct us to the studies that are germane to your position.


----------



## Kite High (Jan 30, 2013)

akula said:


> Was that comment directed toward me? You're giving me grammar lessons? Sweet, people in glass houses dude (and your house is pretty flimsy glass bud).
> 
> But more importantly, I guess this means you are unwilling/unable to direct us to the studies that are germane to your position.


I like you...you smart


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## akula (Jan 30, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I like you...you smart


I know my grammar sucks ass, that's why I dont comment on others grammar.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jan 30, 2013)

I sure do miss my little brother right now. If he where still with us he would be having a field day with a few of you. Growing plants, any type, made him happier than most anything. He was well educated, in the field and lecture hall. And the internet bullshit pissed him off to no end. I will say it again. The only thing thats going to be proven here is what a tough, resilient plant cannabis is no matter how special and fragile these forums seem too make it.


[video=youtube;EsMbLO9QW4Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsMbLO9QW4Y[/video]

Seems to fit him and whats being discussed around here....


----------



## Kite High (Jan 30, 2013)

akula said:


> I know my grammar sucks ass, that's why I dont comment on others grammar.


well there are always grammar spammers..I really meant what I said in a complimentary way...you use your brain well...a very uncommon practice here it appears


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## Kite High (Jan 30, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I sure do miss my little brother right now. If he where still with us he would be having a field day with a few of you. Growing plants, any type, made him happier than most anything. He was well educated, in the field and lecture hall. And the internet bullshit pissed him off to no end. I will say it again. The only thing thats going to be proven here is what a tough, resilient plant cannabis is no matter how special and fragile these forums seem too make it.
> 
> 
> [video=youtube;EsMbLO9QW4Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsMbLO9QW4Y[/video]
> ...


Like you too...u smart too


----------



## Dank Raptor (Jan 30, 2013)

about those leaves then....  Not my grow but defoliation works. Give em time to recover. Dont just go and cut your leaves during your flower cycle. This has to be done in veg a week before. When I first started I thought this was a dumb idea but now I understand.


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## Izoc666 (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> ThaiTanic as marked from The Flying Dutchmen, a well respected breeder. They used one of my photos on their cover page. Think it was the one showing the cola below. This is one of the few seedbanks I would trust if I was to order beans again. For example, their O. Haze is about as true to form as real genetics get, not some mutt that folks attach the Haze buzzword to in order to make a sale. Their Haze is the real thing from Sam the Skunkman's collected genetics 30 or so years ago and is a pure sativa hybrid. No indica.
> 
> Also shown is some of the best pot I've ever grown and smoked. It was a cross I did between a fine male Peak19 (Sagamartha) and beautiful original C99 from the Bros. Grimm. It is photo #3 in the previous post and if memory serves me correct I got around 8 oz off that plant.
> 
> ...


that was very lovely plants ! thanks for explaining about this strain and history. Ill take a look at flying dutchmen's O Haze. I appreciate it.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2013)

Posted at Riddlem3 site in my Rootmaker thread. This is an excellent read that applies to most plant material, not just trees. http://www.rootmaker.com/docs/staking.pdf


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2013)

Izoc666 said:


> that was very lovely plants ! thanks for explaining about this strain and history. Ill take a look at flying dutchmen's O Haze. I appreciate it.


O. Haze is not for the faint of heart, definately belongs outdoors although I have grown it indoors. Since it takes forever to veg, sex and flower, if you're the impatient type, have a problem retaining leaves and don't fully understand the art of pruning/training, don't even think about it.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I sure do miss my little brother right now. If he where still with us he would be having a field day with a few of you. Growing plants, any type, made him happier than most anything. He was well educated, in the field and lecture hall. And the internet bullshit pissed him off to no end. I will say it again. The only thing thats going to be proven here is what a tough, resilient plant cannabis is no matter how special and fragile these forums seem too make it.
> 
> Seems to fit him and whats being discussed around here....


Sorry about your loss!

Also, excellent words of wisdom. Cannabis is indeed tough and like many kids, turns out well in spite of the errors of their caregivers/parents, not because of them.

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 31, 2013)

With proper training veg defoliation you can get tons of branches making a solid wall of bud 4'hx3'wx2.5'd like this each.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 31, 2013)

OMG . ^


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## ASMALLVOICE (Jan 31, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> OMG . ^


yea, I'll ditto that.

Epic Grow Bud Brewer.

Many kudos for your efforts. Thanx for the share. 


Peace and Great Grows

Asmallvoice


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> With proper training veg defoliation you can get tons of branches making a solid wall off bud 4'x3' like this


Nice genetics, what is it?


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 31, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice genetics, what is it?


Bag seed my buddy grew out last summer in hydro It looks more sativa but the high is balanced.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 31, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Bag seed my buddy grew out last summer in hydro It looks more sativa but the high is balanced.


What? No expensive "designer genetics"? Everybody knows you can't grow pot like that using bag seed! 

(Fantastic job)

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Jan 31, 2013)

*I started my own thread on these two lovely ladies called Outdoor came Indoor and got stripped naked repeatedly In advanced forum from start to finish which should be in a couple of weeks then the bottom under developed bud will go from 10.5 hours light back to 14 hours that I started them in flower with. 

I'm reposting this from the other defoliation thread because it is relivent and I'm lazy.

I've been asking for trouble as soon as I announced that I defoliated these beautiful lades repeatedly to a miraculous gigantic grow.

You think I'd have double the bud if it always had all its leaves you are wrong the reason is the defoliation training forcing out those branches to refoliate the lost plant mass repeatedly making for a dense two foot plant before I allowed them to refoliate before flower not because of some mutant bag seed.
.
My buddy grew these from bag seed In hydro with a 1000 watt mh with a small parabolic vertical like me and had three plants that equal one of mine defoliation made the difference along with my unique 3' x 6' foot shield, my homemade organics, longer veg and 18 gallon totes with homemade soil all contributed to a nice crop.

I am defoliating again today to get light to the shaded bud in the canopy because those front pictures can't show you the two and a half feet deep interior bud that is near dark despite me removing more than half of the large leaves a 21 days flower. *


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## Kite High (Feb 1, 2013)

There you go ...casn see it well now...nice indeed


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## Kite High (Feb 1, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> *I started my own thread on these two lovely ladies called Outdoor came Indoor and got stripped naked repeatedly In advanced forum from start to finish which should be in a couple of weeks then the bottom under developed bud will go from 10.5 hours light back to 14 hours that I started them in flower with.
> 
> I'm reposting this from the other defoliation thread because it is relivent and I'm lazy.
> 
> ...


It is puzzling me greatly...if you have such light power and a well thought out room as you do, why defoliate? why not just extend the veg time anyway? that is what is producing your yields. 

See I like that I top once and and let the plant do its thing. I dont wanna work on them I want to get high A long veg will yield considerably more and I have found that large old plants are much morepotent than young ones. I know most do it this due t space limitations. But this veg for a month crap is what the commercial dudes do. All bout da money.

See when I try a new strain I plant 2 in my closet 12/12 from seed. The ones that impress me I then run with a 2-3 month veg with co2 supplementation. Has never failed ...the trees have always been more potent. Also I do not clone as I run one strain at a time and from seed the different phenotypes offer a little variety.I really try my best to pick good genetics...hence the 12/12 from seed test runs. Also I have not had a plant that weouldn't be a keeper. 

And man I have grown some seeds and some friends have as well from Mexican brick swag and it was some damned good shit. See IMO all these "breeders" have done is fuck up the weed with tHE INDICA GO TO BED MAKE YOU INTO BEAVIS AND BUTTHEAD CRAP. I do not see that is better. Hell theres so many pollen chucking ass hat s now...like subfool...that they should be shot calling that shit strains. Pheno hell. Shit I have more stability in my lil crosses I do for myself


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## cannawizard (Feb 1, 2013)

Doesn't "bag seed" just mean-- unknown strain: mystery genetics.. So it could possibly be from a well-known strain, but since we don't know, its labeled "bag seed"..

And the only reason Mexican brick scwhagg sucks, is cause whoever grew it, didn't know WTF they were doing.. (I've had great Mexi Sativas before, mind blowing stuff... don't blame the genetics because of poor growing practices)

.2s


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 1, 2013)

Kite High said:


> It is puzzling me greatly...if you have such light power and a well thought out room as you do, why defoliate? why not just extend the veg time anyway?


He is extending the veg time. The plant has to recover from the stress and will try to replace that which is lost. In the meantime you've also set back root production. He did a great job (which doesn't necessarily mean his success was due to stripping the plant) but did not run a control group under exact conditions so the jury's still out. In bonafide field studies, not only is every condition replicated but it's done 3 times to verify the conclusion of the strictly controlled test.



> And man I have grown some seeds and some friends have as well from Mexican brick swag and it was some damned good shit. See IMO all these "breeders" have done is fuck up the weed with tHE INDICA GO TO BED MAKE YOU INTO BEAVIS AND BUTTHEAD CRAP. I do not see that is better. Hell theres so many pollen chucking ass hat s now...like subfool...that they should be shot calling that shit strains. Pheno hell. Shit I have more stability in my lil crosses I do for myself


Seed sales is part of the cannabis industry racket. 20 years ago there was a handful of "breeders", seedbanks. Now there's hundreds and it's the same old furniture just moved around the room with a new name. Mel Frank even said many years ago in his guide that Mexican can be the best weed you've ever smoked and I agree although it can take a while, like late November outdoors. Problem with Mex just like other equatorial strains is it tends to go hermie but it's easy to grow and the high is excellent especially if you find the old stuff which doesn't have indica genes. I have a collection of Mexican seeds from a friend who has been collecting only the best bagseed over decades. 

The plant that BB grew looks Mexican to me. Fat, Xmas tree shaped, airy buds. He's gonna have some great smoke. 

Tio


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 1, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> And the only reason Mexican brick scwhagg sucks, is cause whoever grew it, didn't know WTF they were doing.. (I've had great Mexi Sativas before, mind blowing stuff... don't blame the genetics because of poor growing practices)
> 
> .2s


It's sometimes crap because of the way its handled and transported. The peons who process it chop the plants, dry it upright in some open roofed hacienda under a tropical sun, strip the plants and then using a compactor pack the seeded bud into 2 kilo bundles wrapped in plastic wrap. All the enemies of THC are there - heat, light, air, mechanical damage. Surprisingly, I've smoked a lot of Mexican bag weed that would knock your socks off, almost like being on a LSD trip. Then again, I live close to the border where it's fresh and not cut with oregano. I have relatives over 50 who still buy and smoke Mexican and most is really good stuff. 

Tio Bendejo


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 1, 2013)

Kite High said:


> It is puzzling me greatly...if you have such light power and a well thought out room as you do, why defoliate? why not just extend the veg time anyway? that is what is producing your yields.
> 
> See I like that I top once and and let the plant do its thing. I dont wanna work on them I want to get high A long veg will yield considerably more and I have found that large old plants are much morepotent than young ones. I know most do it this due t space limitations. But this veg for a month crap is what the commercial dudes do. All bout da money.


I defoliate for the dense branching it creates if it was just veg time I would have a normal looking large plant with one larger cola and few good side branches but defoliated made a bush instead of a tree.

Until you try it once you won't know I have clones ready for the defoliation test to be started soon you will see the different growth patterns quickly the final result will take months but the clones are perfect all equal and ready.

I think running little veg time is a waste because the plant doesn't get large but still takes 2-3 months adding one month veg you can double your yield if you have the space. I like to veg as long as the flowering plants are running making for nice large plants to replace them in the flowering room.

This is a couple of weeks after the last veg defoliation the intense branch caused by forcing the small leaves left to become fan leaves growing from all the little nodes.







You see what I mean by bush not the classic Christmas tree it would have been. That's the back side that hasn't seen direct light in a couple of weeks since the last defoliation. 

Then I let them leaf out before bud I like leaves they feed the plant but I don't need them all in veg I got lots of food for them. The leaves I pluck go in a blender and one cup of leaves goes in a gallon to ferment then a cup of that to a gallon.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> He is extending the veg time. The plant has to recover from the stress and will try to replace that which is lost. In the meantime you've also set back root production. He did a great job (which doesn't necessarily mean his success was due to stripping the plant) but did not run a control group under exact conditions so the jury's still out. In bonafide field studies, not only is every condition replicated but it's done 3 times to verify the conclusion of the strictly controlled test.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The buds are tight not airy at all I wish it was more sativa I am looking for a good energetic sativa to add to my stable.

The test will start soon.


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## Kite High (Feb 1, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I defoliate for the dense branching it creates if it was just veg time I would have a normal looking large plant with one larger cola and few good side branches but defoliated made a bush instead of a tree.
> 
> Until you try it once you won't know I have clones ready for the defoliation test to be started soon you will see the different growth patterns quickly the final result will take months but the clones are perfect all equal and ready.
> 
> ...


I top for four mains and I have bushes as well







Without all that work of defoliation...that was the smallest one that run...it was over 3' high and a relay malfunction and baked em at 140F 98% rh ...that and I wasn't able to see to them properly due to my health at the time...but you get what I am saying...I tried defoliation way back a few different ways and every time in the same environment the not defoliated won in yield


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 1, 2013)

That's a nice plant it streched out nice but I find it odd that now after so many posts you say you have done a side by side got any pics and what did you do for a test?


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 1, 2013)

How appropriate hahahaha! 
Cheers world


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## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

Hurt me to find out that wasn't thc sap I have witnessed in the past. 

Plant blood, heavy. Thanks for that Sin.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 1, 2013)

No prob bro. 
I'm not sold one way or another as far as defoliation goes at this point. I'm sure over time I'll begin to lean one way or the other, but I gotta try is out side by side to see wassup. I figure I'll start my experiment around April or May after I'm done harvesting everything in my current rotation...
Still then things could be strain dependent so I don't even know bro.

It *OBVIOUSLY* works(defoliation) otherwise ppl wouldn't say, do, or even swear by it.
But on the other I understand the argument of keeping the leaves given their function to the plant.
But I know for sure that shit is situational. I know I'm growing within my means.

A lot of conflicting info if you look for it so I know it's not a one way or the other thing..
I just found it *HILARIOUS* haha the quote "you might find this emotionally difficult but" hahahahaha
I been following this thread for a while now and had to LOL at that hahaha
But the looks of things, I'm sure someone out there found it emotionally difficult lol. I ain't calling NO NAMES haha I'm just sayin' 

Love this forum and this thread haha too much good info here, as well as some* funny shiiiii*


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## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

It states clearly that pruning branches aka topping is how you a make a plant bush out.

It makes no menton of removing leaves to achieve any benefit, it states " the leave is neither replaced nor repaired".


It does state severe pruning will slow growth, and new growth may be distorted with a drop in potency.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> It states clearly that pruning branches aka topping is how you a make a plant bush out.
> 
> It makes no menton of removing leaves to achieve any benefit, it states " the leave is neither replaced nor repaired".
> 
> ...


It's info to process and take what you will from it. 
It states that removal of some leaves aren't detrimental to any plant. Followed up by and example of nature blablabla
The whole page refers to the stem and the leaves.


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## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

the first three paragraphs about pruning branches , the last two describe what happens when you remove a leaf or a branch.

it will never mention removing Healthy leaves as a part of pruning.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> It states clearly that pruning branches aka topping is how you a make a plant bush out.
> 
> It makes no menton of removing leaves to achieve any benefit, it states " the leave is neither replaced nor repaired". *Forgot this part directly after "but new leaves are continually being formed from the growing shoots." Imagine that it is simple biology. *
> 
> ...


He does state after the sentence I added to finish your sentence

*"The stem since it connects all parts of the plant is more important as a whole.
When the stem breaks or creases, it is capable of repair. You can help the plant repair it's stem by splinting the wound or somehow propping the stem up straight. Stems take about four or five days to heal"*

So he says the "leaves are continually being formed by the growing shoots."
like I have saying from day one making those new shoots with the only fans grow faster. 

He also states the branches are more important so it would be better to remove the leaf then topping. 

Suppercropping can really slow a plant down I've done that but don't unless I want to train a branch for light.


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## Kite High (Feb 1, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That's a nice plant it streched out nice but I find it odd that now after so many posts you say you have done a side by side got any pics and what did you do for a test?


Was years ago and nope no pics. These are current as my hard drive shit on me recently with the head crashing into the medium so no ability to recoup data. That was the smallest one at over 3 foot. And that was at 3 weeks flower.


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## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

you have been growing that plant for almost half a year and your concerned about slowing things down, that is laughable.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> BB, this is gonna come across as crass as I know you're proud of your garden, but, after reviewing your results, the facts speak for themselves. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/602889-defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-12.html#post8487106
> 
> Based on what I'm seeing, I'd say this is either your first gardening experience or damn close to it. It's obvious that defoilation is working against you, not for you, as it should.
> 
> ...



The plants look ok, i would be lying if i said they look special or uniquely impressive
are you saving the best till last ?


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 1, 2013)

Two month veg two months flower today. 

I didn't slow it down I forced it to grow more smaller branches. 

Then let it grow untouched for five weeks two before flower then half defoliation three weeks flower


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## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

I have to disagree to a certain extend about super cropping... It can slow down the plant... If the plant doesn't have enough foliage and depending on the damage(stunt) done to the plant...


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## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

The first one is 24-48 hour stunt... The second one is 5-6 day stunt... And that's on many branches of the plant.. Btw SC doesn't stunt the overall pant... Just the branch/es until they recover...


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## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

I understand how the plant responds to having its leaf removed. I understand the side branching.

what you are doing is novelty not innovation.

Natural or four tops is how you get the most from these plants.

we are talking thousands of professional botanists who grow Cannabis in universities and government labrotories use those two methods for growing dank. You and some crackpots in their micro grows are going to have the next breakthrough growing 30 plants a decade.


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## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> The first one is 24-48 hour stunt... The second one is 5-6 day stunt... And that's on many branches of the plant.. Btw SC doesn't stunt the overall pant... Just the branch/es until they recover...


Trellis is the least evasive of the methods I will show you a pick in a minute, SC is not foolproof, kind of silly not being when are doing this. Full potential I mean.

I have peep hole where the bicep should be. It is a novelty also, shit can go wrong, training I have had no failures or hiccups.


----------



## donmagicjuan (Feb 1, 2013)

has anyone ever heard of a peer reviewed scientific article?


----------



## Kite High (Feb 1, 2013)

I dont like sc as it causes the buds to be malformed and IMO unsightly


----------



## Bud Brewer (Feb 1, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> The first one is 24-48 hour stunt... The second one is 5-6 day stunt... And that's on many branches of the plant.. Btw SC doesn't stunt the overall pant... Just the branch/es until they recover...


Just like defoliation in three to five days the leaf mass is replaced by the new branch tip because they are now the biggest leaves. 

It doesn't actually slow there total growth much instead it transfers it to secondary branches instead of growing straight up and thin.


----------



## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> Trellis is the least evasive of the methods I will show you a pick in a minute, SC is not foolproof, kind of silly not being when are doing this. Full potential I mean.
> 
> I have peep hole where the bicep should be. It is a novelty also, shit can go wrong, training I have had no failures or hiccups.


Yes, as long as you know why you are super cropping you should be fine... I trained my plants from the get go with sc... So bottoms went either top or mid range... If is a one cola plant there is a big wound before the flowers begin... If the mid.lower shoots made it up top... The same... Little breaks under the top 5-7 nodes to promote single flowers under to develop 2-3 nodes with fast recovery... I'm still reading about it to see benefits vs pro... I would like to hear opinions of no lst grows and how certain strain reacts... I pretty much compare mine to a successful dp white widow grow on another forum.. Training was scrog... But I will be able to tell at the very end...


----------



## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I dont like sc as it causes the buds to be malformed and IMO unsightly


Yeah? I'm just thinking optimal growth with no lst in the long run makes more bud... But that's if you are not limited in the amount of female plants...


----------



## Bud Brewer (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> I understand how the plant responds to having its leaf removed. I understand the side branching.
> 
> what you are doing is novelty not innovation.
> 
> ...


I know my plants are micro I'd like to see those studies of the thousands of botanists for gov and universities only using those two methods this is some funny shit!!!!

I grew my incredible micro plants 100% natural no pruning, listing, suppercropping just a couple of branches when I shaped the back sides.

All organic no store bought nutes, to feed my own simple recipes plus building a good mix.

This is as natural as it can get just those invisible rabbits ate my leaves a few times I need to get some rabbit traps for my grow room those pesky rabbits LMAO.


----------



## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

i have a SC a few thousand branches, only lost a couple of branches and maybe 5-6 that I had to tape.

You do it when it is woody and flowering and it snaps, it hurts your cconfidence lol.


----------



## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I know my plants are micro I'd like to see those studies of the thousands of botanists for gov and universities only using those two methods this is some funny shit!!!!
> 
> I grew my incredible micro plants 100% natural no pruning, listing, suppercropping just a couple of branches when I shaped the back sides.
> 
> ...



you did make some bad ass bio satva Bud Brewer, i am happy for you, can t hate sucess. 

hope it doesn't taste like hay


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 1, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> How appropriate hahahaha!
> Cheers world View attachment 2506447


That ditty confirms what I've been saying, which also pinpoints the location that I told you guys about where the new foliage will be produced, which also coincides with what I said in the first page of my topping to get 4 main colas thread.

So.......duh.......


----------



## potroastV2 (Feb 1, 2013)

Patience Kip, some people take a little longer to pick things up ...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 1, 2013)

rollitup said:


> Patience Kip, some people take a little longer to pick things up ...


And Mr. Rogers replies - "can you say 'thick'? I knew you could".


----------



## Sincerely420 (Feb 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That ditty confirms what I've been saying, which also pinpoints the location that I told you guys about where the new foliage will be produced, which also coincides with what I said in the first page of my topping to get 4 main colas thread.
> 
> So.......duh.......


lol & I wasn't even trying to call no names 
Not to mention the fact that it's "Uncle Bens topping method"
You discovered that right??


----------



## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> i have a SC a few thousand branches, only lost a couple of branches and maybe 5-6 that I had to tape.
> 
> You do it when it is woody and flowering and it snaps, it hurts your cconfidence lol.


Its pretty much you stop sc when is woody or you switch the fertilizer ratio which is pretty much 3-4 weeks for 8-10 flowering strains... You have to not know the why of sc to fuck it up


----------



## PJ Diaz (Feb 1, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Its pretty much you stop sc when is woody or you switch the fertilizer ratio which is pretty much 3-4 weeks for 8-10 flowering strains... You have to not know the why of sc to fuck it up


I don't understand why you keep telling people how to grow like you're some kind of expert when you haven't even gotten through one harvest yet.


----------



## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I don't understand why you keep telling people how to grow like you're some kind of expert when you haven't even gotten through one harvest yet.


And I don't understand why you worry about what other people do... If you can prove me wrong go ahead... I'll be more then happy to hear your grand expertise and stories... I'm not claiming this to be The work of my life.. But the knowledge of other people... Stop worrying about stupid shit already..


----------



## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Its pretty much you stop sc when is woody or you switch the fertilizer ratio which is pretty much 3-4 weeks for 8-10 flowering strains... You have to not know the why of sc to fuck it up


I did a couple this run, a few trained and,a few untouched. 

So, far untouched is 18 inches and pencil sized stalk, sc 's and trained are tied for ass.

Day 30


----------



## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> I did a couple this run, a few trained and,a few untouched.
> 
> So, far untouched is 18 inches and pencil sized stalk, sc 's and trained are tied for ass.


Yeah? How long you letting them veg?


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## Slab (Feb 1, 2013)

I wil veg at a week, how long did you go?

Some at two weeks, and do some trees.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Feb 1, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand why you keep telling people how to grow like you're some kind of expert when you haven't even gotten through one harvest yet.
> ...


Who said I'm worried? Just don't understand, that's all.


----------



## Kite High (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> I wil veg at a week, how long did you go?
> 
> Some at two weeks, and do some trees.


I veg all day everyday. Oh wait. Nevermind.


----------



## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

Slab said:


> I wil veg at a week, how long did you go?
> 
> Some at two weeks, and do some trees.


7 weeks and a couple days... That's the part I don't like too much... But I had no choice... Only 3 were females...


----------



## elkukupanda (Feb 1, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Who said I'm worried? Just don't understand, that's all.


If you don't know... Now you know... Diaz..


----------



## Sincerely420 (Feb 1, 2013)

So..

To definitely not touch the fan leaves at early age? Yeah...probably shouldn't do it.
But later on does it make that big of a difference? 

Also chopped all the fan leaves on one side off of a seedling to tie its stem horizontal, without the leaves laying in the soil to die. That seedling is now the first of 5 to begin flowering after a weeks of veg then switching to 12/12.
Its also the most vigorous of the 5 tho they're all doing good.

I mentioned all that just because the following about the removal of fan leaves while they plants are young seems to not be a sure thing..Based on observation. Could also be a strain dependent response or depending on where the buds origins are geographically I don't know... I'm just sayin


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## Kite High (Feb 2, 2013)




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## cannawizard (Feb 2, 2013)

*so much "emotions" expressed in these cannabis forums.. And thanks for painting that picture.. now I need to delete that mental image of sunni & rolli... :\


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 2, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I veg all day everyday. Oh wait. Nevermind.


Gonna be a lot of veggin' going on Sunday nationwide. Am gonna do some pulling at the kegerator, all kinds of eats....just need to pick up the chicken wings. Can't go wrong with a 110" diagonal screen and $10,000 surround sound system that I custom built myself. Sounds like you're on the 50 yard line, looking thru a window.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 2, 2013)

No deflection, it's an inside thing. Potroast and I don't always see eye to eye, in fact he took away my PM privileges, but we go wayyyyyy back, even before the days of any groups such as this one so there's a certain since of brotherood. Talkin' days of a newsgroup called ADPC....then there was cannabis.com, Cannabis World, Overgrow and now a hundred or so cannabis website forums such as this one. Kip was my handle way back then.

UB


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## bde0001 (Feb 2, 2013)

Oh no, he is purposly ignoring me, because I called him out and he knows hes wrong. It wouldnt look too good if it was clear that sunni was lieing and rolli knew she was, but stuck up for her anyways.


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## smellzlikeskunkyum (Feb 3, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Like most things, there is not a simple answer like "keep all your leaves". Yes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that leaves are the surfaces where light photons are absorbed, and carbohydrates are produced. Leaves are also very important for cooling the plant and also maintaining the flow of nutrient and water through the plant.
> 
> There is a balance between the energy needs of the plant (due to its size) and it's ability to produce energy to support growth. However! The very precense of leaves increases the need for more water uptake, nutrient assimilation, and carb production. A plant is subject to all kinds of natural hazards that cause defoliation.. Wind, disease, insects, animals, etc. the balance in the plant is not so delicate that loosing some leaves is going to cause the collapse of the plant. This is why you can lollipop a plant and low and behold...your yield will increase. Bud sites need light, as do lower leaves. Light penetration is severely limited indoors. Lower leaves don't receive a whole lot of energy if they are shaded.
> 
> ...


Wonderful post. Im 100% positive it is NOT always a bad thing to remove a couple leaves that are just flat out in the way indoors. A good test of this is to leave a big fan leaf covering a top next to it. it can be from another plant next to it, or even the same plant with multiple tops that have leaves covering bud sites. Those sites, especially when tops, are certainly effected from the lack of direct light. they not only suffer in total size, but also the amount of resin. 
i agree completely that its a VERY delicate balance in general, but its not such a crazy change to the plant as long as its still in veg or JUST starting flower.

Some strains are going to be completely different from others when it comes to the need for defoliation. some heavy indicas, especially land race kush for instance, need a bit of defoliation usually. Especially if you have a multi-top plant. Removing some fan leaves strategically will help even out the canopy and let proper light in for resin development. I even experimented a bit on a indica heavy Blue Widow that was grown outdoor last summer. If i hadn't of trimmed the leaves that i had, the buds that were covered would have suffered. It helped even out my canopy and im absolutely sure it increased my yield and overall quality. 

Like the qouted post says... MODERATION is key. EVERY little phenotype has different needs, and gives different reactions.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 4, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> in this thing of ours, there aren't any studys done on it publicized so they only way to be "convinced" one way or the other is to experiment yourself, any thing else is just listening to a debate between people who have defoliated and love it, and people who have never done it tell you how stupid it is( stupid right?)


Hmmmm... be fair here. Just because someone does not like to defoliate does not mean that they have never tried it... I've been in on this discussion. I have tried both and I have chosen to not continue with defoliation.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 4, 2013)

smellzlikeskunkyum said:


> Like the qouted post says... MODERATION is key. EVERY little phenotype has different needs, and gives different reactions.


Yup. Everything in moderation, including moderation.


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## keebo3000 (Feb 5, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Hmmmm... be fair here. Just because someone does not like to defoliate does not mean that they have never tried it... I've been in on this discussion. I have tried both and I have chosen to not continue with defoliation.


glad to hear vyou have tried it and didnt like it. but if you search thru this thread the majority of the naysayers here never tried it and be-little the ones who want to experiment. that was the point of that post.


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## keebo3000 (Feb 5, 2013)

here is pic after first cut. . here they are after second cut three weeks later sexy bitches right???? and here are the ladies 2day... starting with the strawberry coughs, and finally the sour kush  so here they are. I am no means (as you can see by the pictures) a master grower, this my hobby and i had a blast on my experiment, ... and yes uncle ben i am using a cannabis specific nutrient probably why my leaves are turning and i had so many issues late in flower.. so next experiment will be an organic grow, peace


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## Kite High (Feb 5, 2013)

so no way of knowing if idefoliation actually helped or not...sux...I do not recommend going organics as it is even harder to get correct


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## donmagicjuan (Feb 5, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> here is pic after first cut. View attachment 2513025. here they are after second cut three weeks laterView attachment 2513030View attachment 2513031View attachment 2513033View attachment 2513034 sexy bitches right???? and here are the ladies 2day... starting with the strawberry coughs,View attachment 2513037View attachment 2513038View attachment 2513039View attachment 2513040View attachment 2513041 and finally the sour kush View attachment 2513042View attachment 2513043View attachment 2513044 so here they are. I am no means (as you can see by the pictures) a master grower, this my hobby and i had a blast on my experiment, ... and yes uncle ben i am using a cannabis specific nutrient probably why my leaves are turning and i had so many issues late in flower.. so next experiment will be an organic grow, peace


No this horror zone needs help fail fail


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## keebo3000 (Feb 5, 2013)

Kite High said:


> so no way of knowing if idefoliation actually helped or not...sux...I do not recommend going organics as it is even harder to get correct


i meant i was going to buy empire builder soil, or M3 mix... something simple also looking into subcool supersoil, just add water sounds great to me, i have read three books on cannabis, look for def. and how to fix them, but this hydro thing... man every grow like clockwork 6th, 7th week i have these issues.. SAME DAMN ONES yellowing leaves, etc, it looks like calmag issue , but i think i compensate for it then BLAM. yellowing, spots and curl.. i even changed nutes went from botanicare line up, to advanced nutrients complete lineup with connoisseur( friend at hydro stroe ave them to me) and although buds are denser same issue. i know im opening myself up for my detractors to have a field day with this but honestly im looking for feed back to perfect grow.. although this is just for me, and i havent been disappointed by any of my grows at some point i would like to move forward to another damn deficiency


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## keebo3000 (Feb 5, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> No this horror zone needs help fail fail


hey thanks for your advice and input. but as you can see in my post i recognize this is a bad job, but i appreciate you reiterating it for me, thanks again


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## Kite High (Feb 5, 2013)

http://www.dyna-gro.com/


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## keebo3000 (Feb 5, 2013)

Kite High said:


> http://www.dyna-gro.com/


I will definately get them. if i can get my plant to look half as good as yours im all in..... should get the complete lineup
as well?


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## Kite High (Feb 5, 2013)

I use foliaGge pro, magpro, protekt


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 6, 2013)

donmagicjuan said:


> No this horror zone needs help fail fail


I have to degree, that indeed is a house of horrors. Those are not healthy plants. I think he's like many newbies, just happy to get few buds while thinking he's reinvented the wheel. 

Bottom line? It's a feel-good thang.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 6, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> .. man every grow like clockwork 6th, 7th week i have these issues.. SAME DAMN ONES yellowing leaves, etc, it looks like calmag issue , but i think i compensate for it then BLAM. yellowing, spots and curl.. i even changed nutes went from botanicare line up, to advanced nutrients complete lineup with connoisseur( friend at hydro stroe ave them to me) and although buds are denser same issue.


You really need to read my posts. I've pointed out your issues a thousand times and stated why, even in your own thread! For starts, anybody defoliating their plants is a gardening flunky.

READ, learn some botany. Alexander reiterated what the vets all know - https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/602889-defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-18.html

UB


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## keebo3000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I have to degree, that indeed is a house of horrors. Those are not healthy plants. I think he's like many newbies, just happy to get few buds while thinking he's reinvented the wheel.
> 
> Bottom line? It's a feel-good thang.
> 
> UB


NO THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! THANK YOU UNCLE YOU FINALLY GET IT!!!! NO ONE BESIDES MY FRIENDS AND I ARE GOING TO CONSUME THEM!!! IM NOT A CASH CROPPER!!!! ITS A FEEL GOOD THING, A FUN JOURNEY, i do read your posts, and i do respect what you say, just not how you say it. but like ive stated what seems like a million times, just learning, i am just feeling my way around, i have read your thread, but i wasnt going to stop an experiment in the middle of it regardless of what someone said, that the reason for experiments, i am REALLY intrigued with your method of topping, would like to ask you questions about it,, but never would because i dont like being condescended to, im a man, your a man. lets put aside the petty gripping and get to business of growing


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## keebo3000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> anybody defoliating their plants is a gardening flunky.
> 
> UB


 you just made that term up. ROTFLMAO!! and you get to angry over something so small, relax before you pop something unk. gardening flunky huh? like alexander supertramp?


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 6, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You really need to read my posts. I've pointed out your issues a thousand times and stated why, even in your own thread! For starts, anybody defoliating their plants is a gardening flunky.
> 
> READ, learn some botany. Alexander reiterated what the vets all know - https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/602889-defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-18.html
> 
> UB


Your so full of it you offer no help he over fertilized his plants he has to feed with weak feed till they recover.

Here is me being a gardening flunky just after the last defoliation with at least a week to go I'll up load more pics later.


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## Figong (Feb 6, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Your so full of it you offer no help he over fertilized his plants he has to feed with weak feed till they recover.
> 
> Here is me being a gardening flunky just after the last defoliation with at least a week to go I'll up load more pics later.


Actually, the only thing I see missing from your photos is white phosphorus in the bottles with water - if you're going to get raided, you'd just then stab the jugs w/knives quick.. and everything goes up in flames. (Random fact- not guaranteed to win a trivia contest)


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## Kite High (Feb 6, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> NO THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! THANK YOU UNCLE YOU FINALLY GET IT!!!! NO ONE BESIDES MY FRIENDS AND I ARE GOING TO CONSUME THEM!!! IM NOT A CASH CROPPER!!!! ITS A FEEL GOOD THING, A FUN JOURNEY, i do read your posts, and i do respect what you say, just not how you say it. but like ive stated what seems like a million times, just learning, i am just feeling my way around, i have read your thread, but i wasnt going to stop an experiment in the middle of it regardless of what someone said, that the reason for experiments, i am REALLY intrigued with your method of topping, would like to ask you questions about it,, but never would because i dont like being condescended to, im a man, your a man. lets put aside the petty gripping and get to business of growing


Whaddya wanna know bout topping ?


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 6, 2013)

And that a 1000w HID will only penetrate up to 18" into a plant so anything taller isn't getting properly serviced down low. I can screenshot that if needed but that was all that seemed to be relevant to this thread


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## keebo3000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> View attachment 2514154
> 
> And that a 1000w HID will only penetrate up to 18" into a plant so anything taller isn't getting properly serviced down low. I can screenshot that if needed but that was all that seemed to be relevant to this thread


thats what I was saying two different books, two different opinions  iI read both of them a neither are wrong,... and im almost sure jorge wouldnt insult ed for his views. there is than one way to skin a cat gents.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 6, 2013)

*EXACTLY!* Which is the reason why I posted that screenshot. I've got that MJ Horticulture too!
This name calling and chatter is asinine 

*edit


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## Figong (Feb 6, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> NO THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! THANK YOU UNCLE YOU FINALLY GET IT!!!! NO ONE BESIDES MY FRIENDS AND I ARE GOING TO CONSUME THEM!!! IM NOT A CASH CROPPER!!!! ITS A FEEL GOOD THING, A FUN JOURNEY -snip-


This is mildly confusing.. does the fact (per your words, your story) that only you and your friends being the ones to consume it make any real difference? If I was growing for friends and myself only, I'd still want to get as much as I could out of the plant(s) and situation, which would make the cost spent on lights/nutes/etc more worthwhile.. unless price is no object. If cost to do so is no object whatsoever, why not just buy from someone else? Horticulture experience? Sure, they have college classes for that, if you want to pick up a horticulture background and not grow anything that could potentially get you arrested based on your location. 

My .02,

Fi-


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## keebo3000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Figong said:


> This is mildly confusing.. does the fact (per your words, your story) that only you and your friends being the ones to consume it make any real difference? If I was growing for friends and myself only, I'd still want to get as much as I could out of the plant(s) and situation, which would make the cost spent on lights/nutes/etc more worthwhile.. unless price is no object. If cost to do so is no object whatsoever, why not just buy from someone else? Horticulture experience? Sure, they have college classes for that, if you want to pick up a horticulture background and not grow anything that could potentially get you arrested based on your location.
> 
> My .02,
> 
> Fi-


the point that you are missing ( my bad for not properly stating) is that these are my plants to experiment on as i see fit. and just from sight, it seems as if im going to go over my previous yield of just over 8 oz. but im still confused as to why your confused. did my statments cause to believe i dont care about yield? how did you misconstrue that? why would i want to EVER buy again? you are confusing my friend.


2 cents returned


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## keebo3000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Whaddya wanna know bout topping ?


to get the four colas, how tall will the plant grow after that? will it be stunted, extremely?


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## Figong (Feb 6, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> the point that you are missing ( my bad for not properly stating) is that these are my plants to experiment on as i see fit. and just from sight, it seems as if im going to go over my previous yield of just over 8 oz. but im still confused as to why your confused. did my statments cause to believe i dont care about yield? how did you misconstrue that? why would i want to EVER buy again? you are confusing my friend.


Ok, so it's an experiment, and if it turns out better than before that's great, but if it doesn't.. you're ok with that as you're testing - I follow now. I thought the point you were aiming at was pretty much that since you're not a 'cashcropper' and you're only growing for friends and yourself that it's ok if it failed.. which is a bit different to me than it failing due to experimentation. I think that's where I may have mis-understood your statements, and it hinted at a semi-failed yield (compared to previous grows) was perfectly ok.. now that I saw the 'experiment/ation' in the mix - it makes much more sense than the first time around. I also figured the 'fail' or 'semi-failed' grow, without any legit reason(see: experiment) could have been interpreted you as having way too much money to spend on power and nutes, and you didn't care about the yield... which points back to the experiment, and why it is all pieced together now.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 6, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> to get the four colas, how tall will the plant grow after that? will it be stunted, extremely?


It will be stunted a few days to a week the end height would be similar.

I'd recommended that you top to make six tops so you can cut the bottom two they never seem to have vigor.

I also recommend feeding at 1/4 strength instead of just water at 6.5 for soil I just add a cap full/tbs to a gallon of apple cider vinegar it has many good things because it is fermented.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 6, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It will be stunted a few days to a week the end height would be similar.
> 
> I'd recommended that you top to make six tops so you can cut the bottom two they never seem to have vigor.
> 
> I also recommend feeding at 1/4 strength instead of just water at 6.5 for soil I just add a cap full/tbs to a gallon of apple cider vinegar it has many good things because it is fermented.


Say what?..


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## Kite High (Feb 6, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> to get the four colas, how tall will the plant grow after that? will it be stunted, extremely?


no it will not be stunted...as a matter of fact it seems to cause the secondary dormants explosive growth...but now that it must in essence grow 4 meristems rather than one it will serve to help control upward growth...you still must guage your veg time to your height limitations of your grow


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 6, 2013)

Kite High said:


> no it will not be stunted...as a matter of fact it seems to cause the secondary dormants explosive growth...but now that it must in essence grow 4 meristems rather than one it will serve to help control upward growth...you still must guage your veg time to your height limitations of your grow


Just like defoliation but I still get my three or more oz per main cola plus all the one oz tops I created with defoliation.


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## keebo3000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It will be stunted a few days to a week the end height would be similar.
> 
> I'd recommended that you top to make six tops so you can cut the bottom two they never seem to have vigor.
> 
> I also recommend feeding at 1/4 strength instead of just water at 6.5 for soil I just add a cap full/tbs to a gallon of apple cider vinegar it has many good things because it is fermented.


thanks.. what about DWC hydro? not in soil.


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## Figong (Feb 6, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It will be stunted a few days to a week the end height would be similar.
> 
> I'd recommended that you top to make six tops so you can cut the bottom two they never seem to have vigor.
> 
> I also recommend feeding at 1/4 strength instead of just water at 6.5 for soil I just add a cap full/tbs to a gallon of apple cider vinegar it has many good things because it is fermented.


Apple Cider Vinegar is good for a -very- few things, I will agree.. but because it's fermented is not one of them. It's good for killing a few annoyances.. and that's only if you flush well, potentially drown more than a few (assuming you have a type that burrows deep), hit it with apple cider vinegar, then flush again a short while later.. then re-balance pH.


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## Kite High (Feb 6, 2013)

Figong said:


> *
> 
> If you see this message, you are one of the Illuminati.​
> 
> ...


how did you know?


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## Figong (Feb 6, 2013)

Kite High said:


> how did you know?


I think you know how I know.. 



You are head of contingency operations for DynCorp at a regional level.


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## Kite High (Feb 6, 2013)

Figong said:


> I think you know how I know..
> 
> View attachment 2514576
> 
> You are head of contingency operations for DynCorp at a regional level.


hmm...you have underestimated I...good


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## shaun2000 (Feb 6, 2013)

Why would u? Its like Removing our fat cells. If the plant doesnt have enough to eat it uses it from the leaves, Hence the yellowing during the end of flowering


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 7, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> here is pic after first cut. View attachment 2513025. here they are after second cut three weeks laterView attachment 2513030View attachment 2513031View attachment 2513033View attachment 2513034 sexy bitches right???? and here are the ladies 2day... starting with the strawberry coughs,View attachment 2513037View attachment 2513038View attachment 2513039View attachment 2513040View attachment 2513041 and finally the sour kush View attachment 2513042View attachment 2513043View attachment 2513044 so here they are. I am no means (as you can see by the pictures) a master grower, this my hobby and i had a blast on my experiment, ... and yes uncle ben i am using a cannabis specific nutrient probably why my leaves are turning and i had so many issues late in flower.. so next experiment will be an organic grow, peace


You have taken defoliation to the next level. I must be missing something because I see no sexy bitches in the pictures. I see crack whores and meth addicts. But if you think they are sexy good for you and 'heres your sign'....


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## cannawizard (Feb 7, 2013)

I agree with Supertramp, those pics remind me of the 20dollar hoes at Hollywood Blvd.. 
But I'm glad you had a good time with your defoliation experiment


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 7, 2013)

Kite High said:


> how did you know?


I knew from my brothers notes and your strain choices among other things. I have been pretty certain you have illuminated his grow notes......


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## keebo3000 (Feb 7, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> I agree with Supertramp, those pics remind me of the 20dollar hoes at Hollywood Blvd..
> But I'm glad you had a good time with your defoliation experiment


had?? still HAVING a great time... had some root rot isssues, fixed those, the ladies are coming along swimmingly.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 7, 2013)

Your inbox is full Kite, cant return your message........


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## Kite High (Feb 7, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Your inbox is full Kite, cant return your message........


fixed now...apologies


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## elkukupanda (Feb 7, 2013)

UB, i don't know for 6 inches under 600w HPS but the meter can read up to 20,000 and that is way more... good little tool to have around... my plants are now safe. keeping the canopy between 6k to 2.5k...


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Just some more info I managed to come across


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 7, 2013)

This is training branches to come out by defoliation in veg to produce 54 inch plants with 4 oz colas plus multiple one oz tops just count the strings.

The pictures are of the front half the back half is very substantial but shorter with more frost the big ones in front of the light keep growing.

The interior bud just below the heavy tops has no bud I could still clone from the interior tops with no bud and have no reveg. 
Just look at the right of the drywall square in the first pic and see buds that look to be three weeks old because they didn't get direct light.
look at the bottom there are plenty of nice buds lower on the plant that stretched to find light and grew but the ones higher up that didn't receive direct light are nothing.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 7, 2013)

As you can see I didn't defoliate enough before flower and thru flower I could have done many thing to improve this yield.

It's like riding a bike you never forget but it still takes a bit to get back to winter nights with lights on are mountain bikes over root, rock, ice on the river bank looking down fifty feet to the river one hell of a ride.

So if you all think you know everything you don't, anybody from the bum on the street to the biggest CEO can teach you something valuable.

Just because is goes against what you BELIEVE it can actually work defoliation is just another training/pruning without acually pruning a branch.

It works I now have to do a second harvest and maybe a third but that is the bonus of long veg = long flower I got lot's of undeveloped tops that will explode after I crop and bring the lights back up to 14 hours where I started flowering.


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## Kite High (Feb 7, 2013)

SO IF YOU ARE SO INTENT UPON PROVING THAT YOUR METHODS INCREASE YIELD; DEFOLIATE 1/2 CLONES AND DO NOT THE OTHER HALF IN THE SAME ROOM AND WEIGH THE OUTCOMES?

Sorry bout the caps but too lazy to retype it...lol


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 7, 2013)

I have already said I'm doing that the clones have been in cups for a couple of days. 
Did you notice in the third pic in the middle under the big leaf that branch has no bud at all because it didn't get light but the very bottom has a few big tops that are in the light four inches back and I could clone with no bud.


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## Kite High (Feb 7, 2013)

I look forward to the results

and hell clone with the bud and get outstanding branching


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 7, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I look forward to the results
> 
> and hell clone with the bud and get outstanding branching


I get outstanding branching from defoliation monster cropping is a pain lower clone rates because of tight bud molding or if you can get it to survive 30 days or more to start growing the multiple branches that defoliation would do weeks before.

I could cut the branch in the middle of the last picture you can see it has no bud if I cut that and it would root and start growing fast.

Take another clone from the same area but in light with bud the one in the shade with no bud would have a better chance to root and grow faster but if the monster crops take off we could have a real race I think I will take two of each for the fun of it I'll start that with the test.

I might be rusty with cloning but I lost 17 clones the first time I tried cloning this plant they lived for three weeks but never rooted.

Then a month later I took a bunch more and lost half but have three slow ones and six exact good ones for the test.


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## Kite High (Feb 7, 2013)

awesome...sounds very interesting...a great watch...if you do a thread on this please post a link so I can follow


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 8, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> UB, i don't know for 6 inches under 600w HPS but the meter can read up to 20,000 and that is way more... good little tool to have around... my plants are now safe. keeping the canopy between 6k to 2.5k...


Interesting, eh? If memory serves me correct, lumination is over 10,000 f.c. from 6" of a 600W HPS. Sun = 10K f.c., clear summer day at noon.


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## King Cobra (Feb 8, 2013)

And so on and on ... great stuff.


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## elkukupanda (Feb 8, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Interesting, eh? If memory serves me correct, lumination is over 10,000 f.c. from 6" of a 600W HPS. Sun = 10K f.c., clear summer day at noon.


Indeed, very interesting man... an amazing source of energy no joke... i'm glad i didn't buy a cooling tube.. i probably would had bleach some leaves cuz some of the stuff i read here... Before the meter... the plant under the reflector was getting hmmmm 11k... the only difference i noticed was the leaves weren't as open as other leaves... kind of a V shape... cupping effect? now i know why though... matter fact... you can see in my avatar... that's was the plant getting the 11k... i think you can see in there a bit what i'm referring to... hard tho with that spectrum of light...


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 12, 2013)

This one seems to be more for don't remove the producers


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 12, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Interesting, eh? If memory serves me correct, lumination is over 10,000 f.c. from 6" of a 600W HPS. Sun = 10K f.c., clear summer day at noon.


10K at or near the equator, Tropic of Cancer to Tropic of Capricorn. Florida(31 degree north latitude)maxs at about 8,800. I am at the 45th parallel and never have gotten a reading over 7,500 at the peak of summer, mid June to early July. Its a magical band around the globe between the 40th and 50th parallels, give or take. Its where light and climate meet to grow some of the worlds most amazing plants...

Edit: My numbers I pulled from memory and figure they are pretty close. What I am sure of is max Zenith(10,000 fc)of the suns rays is only possible within a defined band around the globe.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> 10K at or near the equator, Tropic of Cancer to Tropic of Capricorn. Florida(31 degree north latitude)maxs at about 8,800. I am at the 45th parallel and never have gotten a reading over 7,500 at the peak of summer, mid June to early July. Its a magical band around the globe between the 40th and 50th parallels, give or take. Its where light and climate meet to grow some of the worlds most amazing plants...
> 
> Edit: My numbers I pulled from memory and figure they are pretty close. What I am sure of is max Zenith(10,000 fc)of the suns rays is only possible within a defined band around the globe.


Central to south Texas I read 10K to 10,500 f.c. I would think that would be around that down to the equator.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> View attachment 2522083
> 
> This one seems to be more for don't remove the producers


As I quoted this in both of the lame defoliation threads, R.C. Clarke gives the real science behind the stupidity of removing foliage.

And "this one" (Clarke) is THE authority on cannabis anatomy and physiology. He's a scientist, not some hillbilly stoner that's stupid enough to remove the very unit that produces what he's after.

UB


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

yep...CLARKE is da man...him Mel and ...lol...ME....


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> 10K at or near the equator, Tropic of Cancer to Tropic of Capricorn. Florida(31 degree north latitude)maxs at about 8,800. I am at the 45th parallel and never have gotten a reading over 7,500 at the peak of summer, mid June to early July. Its a magical band around the globe between the 40th and 50th parallels, give or take. Its where light and climate meet to grow some of the worlds most amazing plants...
> 
> Edit: My numbers I pulled from memory and figure they are pretty close. What I am sure of is max Zenith(10,000 fc)of the suns rays is only possible within a defined band around the globe.


I am at 7300 ft in one of the slightly northeastern arid high desert mountainous regions of New Mexico and at 1 pm in June I have gotten readings of 11275 ftc with my NIST certified meter that reads to 40000 ftc...also uvb readings on my uvb meter of 435 uw/cm2......

Plants can take upwards of 30000-40000 ftc but I see it as hurting rather than helping production and quality when over 15000 ftc thereabouts

wish I had the health to do outdoors here....but with the constant watering I am just not able currently...but that will soon change....


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## Slab (Feb 12, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I am at 7300 ft in one of the slightly northeastern arid high desert mountainous regions of New Mexico and at 1 pm in June I have gotten readings of 11275 ftc with my NIST certified meter that reads to 40000 ftc...also uvb readings on my uvb meter of 435 uw/cm2......
> 
> Plants can take upwards of 30000-40000 ftc but I see it as hurting rather than helping production and quality when over 15000 ftc thereabouts
> 
> wish I had the health to do outdoors here....but with the constant watering I am just not able currently...but that will soon change....


that kind of heat will cook the meat on your forearms

Miss my days in the Mountains. the phone companies slogan was "life's better out here" they were not bullshitting. for once.

good luck out there I will be rooting for you.


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## Sir.Ganga (Feb 12, 2013)

Kite High said:


> SO IF YOU ARE SO INTENT UPON PROVING THAT YOUR METHODS INCREASE YIELD; DEFOLIATE 1/2 CLONES AND DO NOT THE OTHER HALF IN THE SAME ROOM AND WEIGH THE OUTCOMES?
> 
> Sorry bout the caps but too lazy to retype it...lol


IT HAS!....MANY TIMES. You should take your own advise and do you OWN side by side instead of comming on here and trying to show "just how smart you are".

We ALL know already...how smart you are!

If your not de-foiliating YOUR losing out period.

You really need a different source of info...this is common knowledge and as basic as it gets.


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> IT HAS!....MANY TIMES. You should take your own advise and do you OWN side by side instead of comming on here and trying to show "just how smart you are".
> 
> We ALL know already...how smart you are!
> 
> ...


i did this experiment three times over 15 years ago following the supposed correct guides to doing this..and without fail the plants with the most leaves won...

You kind sir are pompous and self fluffing and I have no use for you...you just earned and very honestly so, ignore...good bye with your useless words...have a great existence

*

Sir.Ganga
420 TIME

[h=2]This message is hidden because Sir.Ganga is on your ignore list.[/h]
there thats much better


*


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> IT HAS!....MANY TIMES. You should take your own advise and do you OWN side by side instead of comming on here and trying to show "just how smart you are".
> 
> We ALL know already...how smart you are!
> 
> ...


well let's see...believe you...or believe what I saw witnessed with my own eyes which agrees with botany and an ACTUAL botanist of cannabis, Mr.[h=2]Robert Connell Clarke[/h]






as was so wisely posted previously by S420

So there sir....check and mate


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 12, 2013)

Did you note the last sentence on the second last paragraph "Although the purpose of leafing is to speed maturation, disturbing the natural pro-gressive growth of the plant *probably *interferes with its rapid development."

Again another person with a theory and no evidence.

This is reality of doing defoliation right not some theory based on limited or no experimentation lacking any credibility.


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

Sorry but your pics only prove what the plants can do when leaves are removed not if it is better. They also look stressed and overheated. In my own comparisons long ago defoliation caused ME loss yield. I have yet to see any credible evidence to the contrary and the fact that an Actual Botanist that focused his study and observations on cannabis primarily throughout his career states these things which confirm my firsthand experience in comparison grows 3 times stands.

And as to Sir buffoon his grow pics do nothing to give him credence whatsoever. Those are mighty buds you show I do say, just doesn't prove the defoliation claims you assert is all.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 12, 2013)

A small lower back branch I just had to pull last night it is pure fire dank sticky stinky and best of all gets you so baked and so smooth.














Kite high it only took you dozens of post to finally revel that you have done it just a few pages back and now you did it three times, is this like the virgins waiting for you in heaven the number goes up every time you tell the story.


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## HighTimesJudge (Feb 12, 2013)

Lower leafs that are fully yellow and ready to fall off actually hinder the growth as they take a substantial amount of energy to kill them off. Pulling them or cutting with sharp scissors to leaves that will fall of within days are better removed asap to recover from healing.. Take it from a Expert Grower and a Marijuana PRO! Your plant (provided its not aeroponics or sea of green method) should have no leaves a foot from the top of the soil... they are not helping and are being blocked by other higher leaves and only hinder your buds development, growth, and potency.


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## elkukupanda (Feb 12, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Did you note the last sentence on the second last paragraph "Although the purpose of leafing is to speed maturation, disturbing the natural pro-gressive growth of the plant probably interferes with its rapid development."
> 
> 
> Again another person with a theory and no evidence.
> ...


Even tho I will never agree with your practices, I love your plants... They are beautiful...
what pot size you using? 10 gal?


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

HighTimesJudge said:


> Lower leafs that are fully yellow and ready to fall off actually hinder the growth as they take a substantial amount of energy to kill them off. Pulling them or cutting with sharp scissors to leaves that will fall of within days are better removed asap to recover from healing.. Take it from a Expert Grower and a Marijuana PRO! Your plant (provided its not aeroponics or sea of green method) should have no leaves a foot from the top of the soil... they are not helping and are being blocked by other higher leaves and only hinder your buds development, growth, and potency.


I have adequate light BELOW the canopy as well...the entire plant is more than adequately lit as I like sats and they are tall. But I do remove the few yellow leaves that occur...but is so minute an amount that in no way is it defoliation by any means


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> A small lower back branch I just had to pull last night it is pure fire dank sticky stinky and best of all gets you so baked and so smooth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well then let me reveal more to you so that you may know...that waqs the time I did it before...three in a row...was black marketing at the time and had plenty of space and resources ...was only the insistence that I never did that had me reveal it again and again

So in the light of your comment would you like to know when I lost my virginity as well? that was 1975...and three times the same day

So how many comparison runs have you done?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I am at 7300 ft in one of the slightly northeastern arid high desert mountainous regions of New Mexico and at 1 pm in June I have gotten readings of 11275 ftc with my NIST certified meter that reads to 40000 ftc...also uvb readings on my uvb meter of 435 uw/cm2......
> 
> Plants can take upwards of 30000-40000 ftc but I see it as hurting rather than helping production and quality when over 15000 ftc thereabouts
> 
> wish I had the health to do outdoors here....but with the constant watering I am just not able currently...but that will soon change....


Curious, cannabis is a tropical plant indigenous to areas with high RH. You guys usually stay in the single digit RH values at 4:00 p.m. in the summer, right?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> IT HAS!....MANY TIMES. You should take your own advise and do you OWN side by side instead of comming on here and trying to show "just how smart you are".
> 
> We ALL know already...how smart you are!
> 
> ...


Perhaps you need to learn some basic horticulture. It's common knowledge that you dumbnuts are a dime a dozen.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 12, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> A small lower back branch I just had to pull last night it is pure fire dank sticky stinky and best of all gets you so baked and so smooth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'll surely be a big hit with the kids.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 12, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Perhaps you need to learn some basic horticulture. It's common knowledge that you dumbnuts are a dime a dozen.
> 
> UB


UB.....All this good ass weed your growing.....I don't think it's working for you LOL 
"Dumbnuts" DO come a dime a dozen but know it alls do too!


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## Kite High (Feb 12, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Curious, cannabis is a tropical plant indigenous to areas with high RH. You guys usually stay in the single digit RH values at 4:00 p.m. in the summer, right?


lol yeah usually a high of 25% at night!!

You have to plant them among other plants for a little heat break and the surrounding vegetation keeps their micro climate a lil higher in rh

But they grow huge with colas bigger than my leg and with the aridness and high uvb super potent...just cant take the lugging ofthe water for it to be feasible...yet


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2013)

Kite High said:


> lol yeah usually a high of 25% at night!!
> 
> You have to plant them among other plants for a little heat break and the surrounding vegetation keeps their micro climate a lil higher in rh
> 
> But they grow huge with colas bigger than my leg and with the aridness and high uvb super potent...just cant take the lugging ofthe water for it to be feasible...yet


Nice!.....


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2013)

Kite High said:


> well let's see...believe you...or believe what I saw witnessed with my own eyes which agrees with botany and an ACTUAL botanist of cannabis, Mr.[h=2]Robert Connell Clarke[/h]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's obvious who's more interested in science and who's more interested in gimmicks. The second paragraph of that Clarke clip sums it (the science) up well.


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## Sir.Ganga (Feb 13, 2013)

Kite High said:


> well let's see...believe you...or believe what I saw witnessed with my own eyes which agrees with botany and an ACTUAL botanist of cannabis, Mr.*Robert Connell Clarke*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have this article and its a very good read but that is all it is. Sadly you are using an article that was wrote for outdoor growing and is only one point of view. If you read this carefully he really does not say what you think he is."It COULD interfere with floral development", "MAY cause stunting","Leaf removal MAY cause sex reversel""MAY interfere with the metabolical balance of the plant"

Do you see the common thread??? Most of this is absolutly correct and everyone should read this article. This is a general overview and as you can see he really doesn't say anything...I think, maybe, it could and so on. He is basically telling us there could be problems and he is absolutely correct, stress of any kind can and does change things. This article is based on the HEALTH of a naturally growing plant. INDOORS we do nothing NATURALLY and theres the difference, though defoilating can cause problems it also can better results if done properly and correctly for the strain growing.

But the last sentence kinda speaks for its self "Logical choices are made to direct the natural growth cycle of cannabis to FAVOR the timely maturation of those products sought by the cultivator, without sacrificing seed or clone production" 

Personally my growing techniques that are based on this kind of info are not for seed or clones but flowers production and weight. Half baked techniques like stripping leaves, leaving suckers is just part of the learning curve. Once you have honed you technique you will find out what works and what doesn't.

We all grow a little different and all need to find our "sweet spot" Sadly most people that argue differently seem to be in their own little world and refuse to listen to reason.


By the way you can't play Chess either because you just lost your King.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> I have this article and its a very good read but that is all it is. Sadly you are using an article that was wrote for outdoor growing and is only one point of view....
> 
> ......This is a general overview and as you can see he really doesn't say anything...


What a fuckin' retard.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's obvious who's more interested in science and who's more interested in gimmicks. The second paragraph of that Clarke clip sums it (the science) up well.


One paragraph doesn't sum up what he means. The whole read does.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What a fuckin' retard.


And WHYYYY are you like this mannn? Damn 
All the good shit you post ain't sayin nothing with your attitude the way it is man


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## Figong (Feb 13, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> I have this article and its a very good read but that is all it is. Sadly you are using an article that was wrote for outdoor growing and is only one point of view. If you read this carefully he really does not say what you think he is."It COULD interfere with floral development", "MAY cause stunting","Leaf removal MAY cause sex reversel""MAY interfere with the metabolical balance of the plant"
> 
> Do you see the common thread??? Most of this is absolutly correct and everyone should read this article. This is a general overview and as you can see he really doesn't say anything...I think, maybe, it could and so on. He is basically telling us there could be problems and he is absolutely correct, stress of any kind can and does change things. This article is based on the HEALTH of a naturally growing plant. INDOORS we do nothing NATURALLY and theres the difference, *though defoilating can cause problems it also can better results if done properly and correctly for the strain growing.*
> 
> ...


Oh, we haven't started this chess round yet - please cite any phytology/botany/horticulture journal where they actually say it's a half-baked technique, yet if it's done properly it works. I'm leaning toward 'You're fucking up your plants'... you can argue all you wish - but you have no solid ground to stand on in this argument. What is in bold from the quote pretty much summarizes it, and tells me that you were at least partially stoned when you tried to put this text together.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

Figong said:


> Oh, we haven't started this chess round yet - please cite any phytology/botany/horticulture journal where they actually say it's a half-baked technique, yet if it's done properly it works. I'm leaning toward 'You're fucking up your plants'... you can argue all you wish - but you have no solid ground to stand on in this argument. What is in bold from the quote pretty much summarizes it, and tells me that you were at least partially stoned when you tried to put this text together.


I don't know what you missed. The response seemed *SOLID* to me


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## cannawizard (Feb 13, 2013)

This defoliation thing is really going nowhere, both sides have valid points.. It just falls under which style of growing do you prefer.. 

Just keep the insults to a bare minimum (I know online discussions can get heated)


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## elkukupanda (Feb 13, 2013)

lol, damm common... this thread needs to die... is simple as... fan leaves... collect energy... store and supplement to the whole plant... the plant works as a collective organism... that's why you shouldn't worry about your buds being covered by a large fan leave... the more leaves... the more food the plant can store (the more buds.. yes!)... apical dominance dictates the growth of fruits... certain hormones dictate the maturation of buds... everything you do to the plant will have a reaction of some type... look for relationship of nitrogen and chlorophyl... also nitrogen and ethylene... and ethylene and gibberellins.. also ABA.. all phytohormones have something to say... there are others that are not mention within the main 5... there is a circadian regulation for hormones... high and lows... learn how to use them for your advantage... do not decrease your photosynthetic rate... there is so much info but if people do not research for themselves... is like talking to a wall... nothing but respect for trying to find results on your own.. but there is enough studies with advance tools out there to know what happens after something is done... don't let the hype confuse you... happy growing...


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

hype??? What hype??


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## elkukupanda (Feb 13, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> hype??? What hype??


The only and one hype why this topic is discussed... More bud for less... plants... less... everything... including leaves...


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## Sir.Ganga (Feb 13, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> This defoliation thing is really going nowhere, both sides have valid points.. It just falls under which style of growing do you prefer..
> 
> Just keep the insults to a bare minimum (I know online discussions can get heated)


You said it...styles of growing and technique self taught is what the main differences in this heated debate. Word inturpatation is also an issue, de-foiliating can mean different things to different people it seems.

This is what works for me.

De-foilatiated plants entering my flower strain:

This is a combinations of different technique I do in the previous couple of weeks, clones are taken from the removal of lower arms.

7 1/2 weeks in with a week to go:


Same strain...same type of foilage removal.

For my set up this is the best way to date of keeping the plant in the grow zone, reducing popcorn and increasing yeild. 

1 tray with three girls now produce 32-36 zips weekly. 

My perpetual grow divided by my square footage is running 1.3g per watt the best I have been able to get with or wothout techniques...so far

Does de-foiliation work?

 
I do believe it does for me and it can work for you if you want it too.


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## potroastV2 (Feb 13, 2013)

We've proven very well that cutting off viable green leaves is not good for the health of the plant, and causes the plant to use energy to grow more leaves rather than flowers. Several members just will not accept that, and they continue to spout the same tired arguments, so this will never end.


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

Doesn't deserve to ever end!!!


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

rollitup said:


> We've proven very well that cutting off viable green leaves is not good for the health of the plant, and causes the plant to use energy to grow more leaves rather than flowers. Several members just will not accept that, and they continue to spout the same tired arguments, so this will never end.


Nobody has proven nothing except those who have put up pictures and studies proving it works. Otherwise people have been bringing up a theory with no proof of any kind just repeating the same theory over again and again.

Removing leaf does cause the plant to use energy to grow more leaves making more budsites and leaves for flower.


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## Sir.Ganga (Feb 13, 2013)

rollitup said:


> We've proven very well that cutting off viable green leaves is not good for the health of the plant, and causes the plant to use energy to grow more leaves rather than flowers. Several members just will not accept that, and they continue to spout the same tired arguments, so this will never end.


Well I guess each to their own, I know what works for me. Being happy with your end results is what its all about.

What works for me may not work for you but that doesn't mean its wrong. It means you grow different....that all.


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## potroastV2 (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Nobody has proven nothing ...





Sir.Ganga said:


> Well I guess each to their own, ....




Ah yes, my point exactly!!


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## potroastV2 (Feb 13, 2013)

IOW, that's what Moe and Curly Howard called "a tin roof."


It's over your head!


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## Sir.Ganga (Feb 13, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> What a fuckin' retard.


Really???Thats it! I would have thought the GREAT Uncle Ben would have a better reply

Sorry you don't get it Uncle Popcorn.

CHECK...AND...MATE!


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## Kite High (Feb 13, 2013)

there's a damned gnat buzzing around here still isn't there....man so glad I do not have to see the crap this pest is leaving behind...man PR that ignore option is the best thing ever

Lemme try to rid this infestation and the feces it leaves behind







hopefully this works


----------



## Uncle Ben (Feb 13, 2013)

Sincerely420 said:


> And WHYYYY are you like this mannn? Damn
> All the good shit you post ain't sayin nothing with your attitude the way it is man


hey man, ah dont take fools lightley, no wat ah mean man????????????


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## Sincerely420 (Feb 13, 2013)

I wouldn't stress it I were you.


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## MYOB (Feb 13, 2013)

Leaves and other greenery block lumens to the stem inhibiting growth. I like to cut all leaves from the plant as soon as they emerge. This allows the lumens to saturate the stem. It grows like CRAZY! Be sure to check every day and cut any leafy growth before it grows out and blocks the lumen penetration. 

I harvested 8oz of dried, perfectly manicured stem last harvest. One stalk was 12" around and over 4' tall. Topping can produce more but thinner and less woody stems...


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

Cool your plants sound just like mine but I bet I get much more than 8 oz of bud and over a pound of stalk per plant do roots count.

My luck is awesome I got stuck with a gallon of heavy crap garden soil, purple stems till I transplanted, vegged with custom cfls and a 400 watt hps defoliated many times to make some dense dank.

The cfls are great for veg my custon made batwing hood is original as is my flowering vertical shield and my own home made organics along with my years of experience made me so lucky.

Just watch what I do instead of just reading about something try it you might get as luck as me if you pay attention.

I know you like to see my skinny defoliated ladies.




























 ​ 







​


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## MYOB (Feb 13, 2013)

You have WAY too many leaves! That stalk is practically suffocating from lack of hard core lumen penetration. I usually end up with one or two leaves total at harvest. Sometimes I miss them when I go in for my daily leaf cutting. Those flowers are blocking lumens as well! I cut all signs of buds right when i see them emerge. Luckily, I rarely get buds because of my militant leaf cutting!

You're getting way too high a bud/stem ratio for me. I like 95% stem and 5% bud (just to support stem growth)


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer,
Those pics are really making the round today... What is it you are yielding with how much lighting? What is this plant? A mother you keep?


----------



## Slab (Feb 13, 2013)

The worlds oldest cannabis plant woo hoo. Was originally put to veg on mt arrat by Noah, then given to bud brewer to grow for 9 months.lol


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

More like 2 years ya got to veg them.


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## elkukupanda (Feb 13, 2013)

MYOB said:


> You have WAY too many leaves! That stalk is practically suffocating from lack of hard core lumen penetration. I usually end up with one or two leaves total at harvest. Sometimes I miss them when I go in for my daily leaf cutting. Those flowers are blocking lumens as well! I cut all signs of buds right when i see them emerge. Luckily, I rarely get buds because of my militant leaf cutting!
> 
> You're getting way too high a bud/stem ratio for me. I like 95% stem and 5% bud (just to support stem growth)


Hahahaha, damm 
you know what? fuck cannabis.. I'm start growing bamboos to get more OZ's!...


----------



## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

MYOB said:


> You have WAY too many leaves! That stalk is practically suffocating from lack of hard core lumen penetration. I usually end up with one or two leaves total at harvest. Sometimes I miss them when I go in for my daily leaf cutting. Those flowers are blocking lumens as well! I cut all signs of buds right when i see them emerge. Luckily, I rarely get buds because of my militant leaf cutting!
> 
> You're getting way too high a bud/stem ratio for me. I like 95% stem and 5% bud (just to support stem growth)


Not only the stalks but all the leaves and bud aren't getting any light underneath but Ben says they don't need it light goes right thru leaf what do you think?










I'm going to get rid of that big pile of bud blocking light to my stems and leaves because they are the best but more bud will start blocking my stems again good Ideas you got Thanks.


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## Kite High (Feb 13, 2013)

MYOB said:


> You have WAY too many leaves! That stalk is practically suffocating from lack of hard core lumen penetration. I usually end up with one or two leaves total at harvest. Sometimes I miss them when I go in for my daily leaf cutting. Those flowers are blocking lumens as well! I cut all signs of buds right when i see them emerge. Luckily, I rarely get buds because of my militant leaf cutting!
> 
> You're getting way too high a bud/stem ratio for me. I like 95% stem and 5% bud (just to support stem growth)


coming see you when I need some rope


----------



## Bud Brewer (Feb 13, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Bud Brewer,
> Those pics are really making the round today... What is it you are yielding with how much lighting? What is this plant? A mother you keep?


I reposted it a few times to show the transition in a few pics.

I'll guess the weight at 12 to 16 each maybe more off the first run the second harvest could be 3/4 of that I'll still have a big plant after I take all the big bud.

The strain is bagseed my friend grew last fall in hydro with a 1000 mh like me and vegged for two months but weren't as big nice average plants good tasty dense bud.

I would love to revege these after the second or third harvest to go outside to get sunlight to make a better mother, but I got the six for the defoliation test and will take clones as I need them from what I got.


----------



## Figong (Feb 13, 2013)

elkukupanda said:


> Hahahaha, damm
> you know what? fuck cannabis.. I'm start growing bamboos to get more OZ's!...


Am surprised you didn't say hydroponic ginseng to sell to the Chinese markets en masse for mass $.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I reposted it a few times to show the transition in a few pics.
> 
> I'll guess the weight at 12 to 16 each maybe more off the first run the second harvest could be 3/4 of that I'll still have a big plant after I take all the big bud.
> 
> ...


How many weeks flower? Are you saying 24-32 oz + 18 - 24 oz? like 42 - 56 oz under 1k? I must be misunderstanding you. Just looking at the pictures.. that is no 2.5 - 3.5 lb crop. I'll assume you meant 24-32 oz from 1k. correct me if i am wrong.

So 24-32 oz from 2 plant under 1000 watts flowering? That's not bad,,, not _too_ out of the ordinary for a high yielding skunk cross though. Especially if it is closer to 12 each rather than 15 . I'm not trying to take from your accomplishments here... a yield like that is nothing to scoff at... Nice work, for real.
I've gotten deep into 2 skunk plants... They yielded about 1.05 - 1.2 lbs per 600 hps with 3 weeks veg under T8 lights. They were pretty no fuss, minimal effort... The 1.05lb (Green Crack) flowered in 8 wks.. The 1.2 (PSBC Kush x Skunk) flowered in 9 weeks. I'm SUPER happy with those yields.

I would bet the farm that your bagseed there has quite a bit of skunk in it. NL x Skunk, that sort of thing. I guess "skunk" is sort of loose, but it looks skunky to me. Really, it looks exactly like a NL x Skunk to me. Skunks give very productive branching even without defoliation. I use LST for most of my plants as a way to fill the canopy and make the plant more productive... The only plants that I just leave alone are the skunk plants. They need no training to produce, space properly and grow dense mature buds from top to bottom.

Do you know what the plant yields without defoliation? Have you tried this with some other genetics?
I would be curious to see how the defol works with some other genetics... Skunks are already known for the amazing productive branching and high yields... I guess that is what this test is for though..

If you could get super productive branching on something like... say, Blockhead (terminal growth)... then I would be convinced. I think anyone who knows the difference between the stature of a skunk plant and a terminal type plant like Blockhead would be convinced as well.
I actually did a bit of defol on a terminal type plant (Deep Chunk) to try to make it more productive... no dice. But that was years ago. SOG was the most productive method I could get out of that plant.
Your defol method is different than what I did though. I would piss myself if you were onto something here and my Deep Chunk plant would be worth growing more often. She yields about 5 oz per 600 hps... if I go SOG (which I fucking HATE doing) I can get an extra oz from each 600 hps. Pitiful, but the quality is unreal. Pea sized buds that burn forever and have narcotic like effects.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 13, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I would love to revege these after the second or third harvest to go outside to get sunlight to make a better mother, but I got the six for the defoliation test and will take clones as I need them from what I got.


Yeah man. This doesn't look like a plant you want to let go of right away. Looks fucking great.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 14, 2013)

Thanks that plant will definitely stay as my indica dom and skunk nl is possible.

I could had done a few things for more yield like four plants would have given me a lot more weight or more space between so I could have dropped the light down more but I will get a large second crop with no veg time so bonus and more veg time for my test clones.

As far as the slow growing low branching/yield types veg time is needed and defoliation would increase dense branching=budsites just defoliate over a couple of days without feeding, let them leaf out good then repeat till you have the structure/size you want for flower florecents work good for the first half of veg.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm skeptical, but I will be doing some experimenting this round. It should be interesting.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 14, 2013)

This plant saw a few rough days... go easy on me... She was SUPER sensitive to Nitrogen.. It was really hard to keep her green while not turning the leaves into something resembling a spring This plant curls up after every moderate N feeding. It was my first go with this plant. I'll have it growing nice soon enough.

This plant is really good about solid growth all the way through.. no defol... a little tying back near the end of flower helps shape the canopy. Not necessarily to reach lower buds, but to get as much light on the plant as possible. I'm loving this plant from a pack of Killing Fields F3 - Sannies Shop. 
I've got a grow going for it and 5 other KF's here.... https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/588955-6-sannies-killing-fields-f3.html


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## Kite High (Feb 15, 2013)

please a smoke grow report upon completion as it is in line to be run...


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

Kite High said:


> please a smoke grow report upon completion as it is in line to be run...


Definitely...


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## cannawizard (Feb 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> This plant saw a few rough days... go easy on me... She was SUPER sensitive to Nitrogen.. It was really hard to keep her green while not turning the leaves into something resembling a spring This plant curls up after every moderate N feeding. It was my first go with this plant. I'll have it growing nice soon enough.
> 
> This plant is really good about solid growth all the way through.. no defol... a little tying back near the end of flower helps shape the canopy. Not necessarily to reach lower buds, but to get as much light on the plant as possible. I'm loving this plant from a pack of Killing Fields F3 - Sannies Shop.
> I've got a grow going for it and 5 other KF's here.... https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/588955-6-sannies-killing-fields-f3.html
> ...


--HeartlandHank, you got close-ups of those flowers? love me some bud porn  , some strains finish with ugly leaves cause they are so picky/finicky , its all about the buds in the end~


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

My camera sucks. Here is the best I could do.


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## cannawizard (Feb 15, 2013)

Nice floral formation, colors, trichs, looks like dank buds~ enjoy


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## Ninjabowler (Feb 15, 2013)

Those look great, very nice ratio. I can see what you mean when you say growing them not too big but not too small now. She looks confined to a manageable size but still large enough to get yourself a good amount of smoke. Also not going so large would be easier to tune in the when to take clones timing. I really like the second pic, with the right cropping on it that looks like a bud picture from a seed catalogue. Very well done.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> This plant saw a few rough days... go easy on me... She was SUPER sensitive to Nitrogen.. It was really hard to keep her green while not turning the leaves into something resembling a spring This plant curls up after every moderate N feeding.


View attachment 2525577

What food and how much? You've got some major chlorosis going on which will screw up production. N is not the problem here.

UB


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

UB, I would love some advice on this. I've pestered you before.. you know.

I was vegging this plant with DGro Foliage pro 9-3-6 1/4 - 1/2 tsp/gal. 1/2 tsp/gal does well for my other plants... I would call that "full strength". 
I was feeding Dyna Gro 7-9-5 for the first 2 weeks of flower. 1/2 - 3/4 tsp per gal.. The bottle shows full strength as 1 tsp... Her leaves curled whenever I fed more than 1/2 tsp per gal. They are In coco, watered a couple times a week. Maybe 3 x's fed then 1 x straight water.
I switched to House and Garden Coco AB around week 3. The values from A and B add up to .4-.3-.9. I added cal mag+ to the H&G feeds, 5 ml per gallon. Label says 5-10 ml/gal. 

There were a few DG magPro 2-15-4 additions to the feed around week 7 or so... at 1/2 strength of the label.. I'm guessing that could have been the cause of some of the chlorosis.

The pics above are from mid week 11 of flower.

What do you think?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> There were a few DG magPro 2-15-4 additions to the feed around week 7 or so... I'm guessing that could have been the cause of some of the chlorosis.
> 
> What do you think?


Yep. There's your problem and just what I suspected. Simply put, high P foods lock micros which show up as chlorosis mainly on upper leaf surfaces (micros are not mobile within the plant. IOW, they show up on new growth only, will not be relocated to lower leaf levels like Mg or N would.)

If they were mine, I'd use the Foliage Pro 9-3-6 all the way thru.

Here's 2 links that will help:

https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom.html

http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

Another thought, don't force feed your plants. Feed them according to their NEEDS, not some whim. They will need more nutes when they're bulking up the most (i.e. early adult, the stretch), when they're the most vigorous as opposed to the early juvenile stage of late flowering.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

Funny now that I think of it but my outdoor plants reacted the same as yours when I fed them a high P food just to see their reaction - curled leaves, yellowing. I left them alone which means they got primarily the slow release 18-4-9 until harvest. It's not the N that's the problem although Dyna-gro's N can be hot, I think. Look at the label, is the N not mostly in a nitrate form?


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks for the advice.. I had much success with DGro 7-9-5 all the way through with a Skunk cross crop I finished a few months ago. 

I just flipped 12/12 on another crop of that Skunk cross. They are still on the 9-3-6 diet, so I could easily start a 9-3-6 all the way through right now. 

You feel that 9-3-6 would be a better choice than 7-9-5 to use after the stretch (wk4 to harvest). Or is 9-3-6 all the way through more so just to keep it simple?

I assume you do not buy the idea of cutting N for the last week or 2? Or that P K helps resin production? Or that much N late will effect aroma negatively?


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Funny now that I think of it but my outdoor plants reacted the same as yours when I fed them a high P food just to see their reaction - curled leaves, yellowing. I left them alone which means they got primarily the slow release 18-4-9 until harvest. It's not the N that's the problem although Dyna-gro's N can be hot, I think. Look at the label, is the N not mostly in a nitrate form?


7-9-5 is 2.6% Ammoniacal N and 4.4 Nitrate N
9-3-6 is 2.9% Ammoniacal N and 6.1 Nitrate N
The DG feedings early caused quite a bit of curl. The chlorosis picked up later though... post H&G and continued post MagPro.
These plants also saw 5 days straight of darkness mid flower... I had to leave town for a week... forgot about that tidbit.
They were a little pale looking upon returning to the garden and getting the lights back up.

It felt like a losing battle, they looked yellow like they wanted more N, but they curled up when I gave it to them. 
This plant was always an the odd seedling too. Strange looking gangly growth since birth about 1 year ago.The flowers were a nice surprise though

Edit:: I guess according to your info.. 7-9-5 WAS quite a bit of P.. I felt like I was giving N, but it was actually a good dose of P.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

.. Reading your neverending abuse thread... looks like my questions are answered there..


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Ya 3-1-2 was found to be the best for growing hemp keep those ratios 9-3-6 and things will be good.

I use the organic equivalent Alfalfa but it adds a lots more then npk.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Ya 3-1-2 was found to be the best for growing hemp keep those ratios 9-3-6 and things will be good.
> 
> I use the organic equivalent Alfalfa but it adds a lots more then npk.


Thanks. I'm going to try this 9-3-6 through feed out. 

I went ahead and plucked leaves from 6 of the 12 Skunk plants. So I have a nice 50% 50% over 3 600s. Some plants only needed one leaf removed to get that exposed effect. I did see the lower growth liven up about 3 hours after the light came on today. It should be interesting to see the difference between the bushiness and branching of the two groups of 6.

I think this crop is going to beat my previous personal best. I'm feeling confident going into flower. If 9-3-6 will increase yield over 7-9-5 (given adequate conditions) then it should. If defol does as well, even better.'t 

I will not be able to compare the defol 6 to previous crops as this 9-3-6 treatment will be all new to the defol. It should compare well to the other 6 though. My flower tent has some microclimates, but they are fairly symmetrical. The test is divided from the center, so, should be good.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

It should be good to see how long have they been in flower?


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> It should be good to see how long have they been in flower?


Last night was their first 12 hour dark period... so Day 2 of 12/12.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

I've seen some good growers do it at flip it does make sense as new branches will come out just before the buds set with better penetration. 
I wish i had defoliated once more before flip.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 15, 2013)

5 days of darkness definately would contribute to the yellowing. It's all related to a carbon flag, the health and subsequent retention of a leaf that is. Ever wonder why a plant eventually drops non-productive leaves, whether it be from pest issues, old age or environmental such as your darkness case? it's because the C02 assimiliation/process is so low or non existent that it sends a hormonal flag to the plant to get rid of it. 

You asked about the NPK values I use....I use whatever it takes to produce and maintain the most healthy leaves until harvest. Don't worry, you'll eventually get what I mean.

High P foods not only induce micro deficiencies but increase stretch.

UB


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 5 days of darkness definately would contribute to the yellowing. It's all related to a carbon flag, the health and subsequent retention of a leaf that is. Ever wonder why a plant eventually drops non-productive leaves, whether it be from pest issues, old age or environmental such as your darkness case? it's because the C02 assimiliation/process is so low or non existent that it sends a hormonal flag to the plant to get rid of it.
> 
> UB


Same thing with bud in the dark you finally figured it out.


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## HeartlandHank (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> ....it's because the C02 assimiliation/process is so low or non existent that it sends a hormonal flag to the plant to get rid of it.
> 
> .... Don't worry, you'll eventually get what I mean.
> 
> ...


That is interesting. The plant judges the leaves worth by it's use or lack of using Co2. Fun Fact right there..

I know what you are saying... When I grow a monoculture for the purpose of production I begin to pay attention to the plant and what it "wants".
When I am growing a pack of seeds out for the purpose of selecting a mother I am working towards one nutrient mix that is a happy medium. I just don't have time to mix 6 separate feeds for 6 plants.
With 6 genetically unique plants, the plants that are the odd plant out (as far as nutrient needs) end up suffering a little bit. This one was the furthest from being the ideal fit to my 1 for all nutrient solution.

However, when leaf problems come up I frequently go looking for answers and end up causing more harm. Also, it is tough to break the habit of doing what I "know" rather than what I see in front of me.
I suspect this plant will be one that I keep around for cuttings for some time. So, I'll get it figured out.


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## Kite High (Feb 15, 2013)

actually it is when the leaf can no longer function to manufacture a certain chemical the name of which presently eludes me, is when it will be dropped...hence why yellow leaves may be retained even when photosynthesis has ceased


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## Kite High (Feb 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 5 days of darkness definately would contribute to the yellowing. It's all related to a carbon flag, the health and subsequent retention of a leaf that is. Ever wonder why a plant eventually drops non-productive leaves, whether it be from pest issues, old age or environmental such as your darkness case? it's because the C02 assimiliation/process is so low or non existent that it sends a hormonal flag to the plant to get rid of it.
> 
> You asked about the NPK values I use....I use whatever it takes to produce and maintain the most healthy leaves until harvest. Don't worry, you'll eventually get what I mean.
> 
> ...


hell high P can inhibit iron uptake and N availability as well...yep 3-1-2 in the stretch phase greatly diminishes stretch...fact


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## Poe Kerbuddons (Feb 15, 2013)

In a moment of anger I plucked nearly all the withered and burnt fan leaves from a plant. All the bud was small and very fluffy; as a direct result, I'm sure.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 15, 2013)

I think the thing that caused the withered and burnt leaves didn't go away when you took nonfunctioning leaves off what happened?


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## yesum (Feb 15, 2013)

So unrelated, but Uncle Ben, what are your top strains you like to smoke. I remember Black Domina and maybe GDP?

Anyways, I just smoked some BD I grew and it is one of the strongest indicas I have smoked. I added uvb light to the grow and let it go 12 weeks.

All the different strains I ran with the uvb are really strong but this BD is a bell ringer. Mine was called SAD from Sweet Seeds, a pheno of BD they selected.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

yesum said:


> So unrelated, but Uncle Ben, what are your top strains you like to smoke. I remember Black Domina and maybe GDP?
> 
> Anyways, I just smoked some BD I grew and it is one of the strongest indicas I have smoked. I added uvb light to the grow and let it go 12 weeks.
> 
> All the different strains I ran with the uvb are really strong but this BD is a bell ringer. Mine was called SAD from Sweet Seeds, a pheno of BD they selected.


Strongest, most fruity, heaviest yielder? My cross of C99 X Peak19. These are large bush plants, check 'em out:



Black Domina, forgot about that one. Used to be popular years ago. Trends come and go in this biz. I wish I had a pure indica to play with. Closest thing to indica was Peak19 and most of those had a very strong skunk smell that you could detect a mile away. Weird.....I grew out some Peak19 backcrosses outdoors and the pheno went almost pure sativa. They have Colombian in them, or so says Sagamartha:



Mexican is pretty hard to beat too.

Good luck,
UB


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## cannawizard (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Strongest, most fruity, heaviest yielder?
> 
> View attachment 2527410
> 
> ...


--I'll take some of that Mexi ~ her fingers just say, "space cadet".. i remember black domina.. always wondered what happened to that strain..


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> --I'll take some of that Mexi ~ her fingers just say, "space cadet".. i remember black domina.. always wondered what happened to that strain..


That last photo is a Peak19 backcross. The Colombian phenotype really showed up for some reason.

I agree with Mel Frank when he says, "Mexican can be some of the best pot you've ever grown." It gets a bad rap because of crap they buy in a baggie, as if that's even close to the potential of those seeds staring back at them.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

I just put my ladies out of their misery I defoliated them 6 or 7 times I think I got a tiny yield for two plants luckily I still have at least an oz of popcorn on each of the still 3 foot high and wide bushes.
I think I can get just as much bud the second time I flower with no veg time. 



Wrong pic that is just one plant


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 16, 2013)

3 plants from 3 gallon containers, 400 watts. Less than 90 days rooted clone too finish. Almost zero popcorn, just firm, fat, sticky buds top to bottom.


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

Nice bud but you would need all three to add up to one of mine and I still have three foot bushes to reflower no veg I think I will get just as much the second time.


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## Slab (Feb 16, 2013)

You will not get a second set of flowers from the same nodes.


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## Kite High (Feb 16, 2013)

unsubbing...too much stupidity for me to stomach any longer....have a great existence everyone


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

I got so many pics it's stupid If people want to know how when and what was done just ask. 

This was all done in coco compost mix with homemade organic nutes only. Cost in total about 40 dollars and I will keep using the soil and nutes for a reflower and if I can do a third I will but the soil will still be good no chemical build up.

I have seen 5 gallon bucket photos so I couldn't resist, many will think this is a whole plant, not just the colas mixed in that wall of hanging bud on the ends.





 ​​


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 16, 2013)

Slab said:


> You will not get a second set of flowers from the same nodes.


They many be hungry and light deprived, but they are still about 3 feet high and wide with hundreds of bud sites that look about two weeks old waiting to explode into new growth once I trim the last few onces of popcorn nothing hanging has popcorn.

I will get about as much the second time maybe more because they are going to be turned around and tied so I can drop the light and get more out of it.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 16, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Nice bud but you would need all three to add up to one of mine and I still have three foot bushes to reflower no veg I think I will get just as much the second time.


Bullshit. Get over yourself. You've turned into a big mouthed bore.

UB


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## yesum (Feb 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Strongest, most fruity, heaviest yielder? My cross of C99 X Peak19. These are large bush plants, check 'em out:
> 
> View attachment 2527386View attachment 2527387View attachment 2527388
> 
> ...


 Got you and Uncle Buck mixed up, he had those strains as favs, along with Godbud. I have grown out Maple Leaf Indica and now Afghani #1 but have not yet smoked the Afghani. MLI is a good stable indica. The f2's I made look and smoke just like ones I got from the f1's.

Panama Red from ACE is a good sativa that is supposed to be pure. Pure enough for me. Takes me right back to late 70's and Oaxacan red.


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 16, 2013)

Happened to be looking at the description for LA Confidential on the breeders site here: http://dnagenetics.com/seeds/la-confidential 

and noticed this..



> This is a great medical strain as it relieves pain and helps eliminate insomnia. For the everyday user, the high of this herb is psychedelic and energetic, with a hammer. This girl is a heavy eater. There are two real phenotypes of the Confidential and they will both finish in 45-56 days. One is a bit more hardy, but both equal in knock down drag out stone. Pre-veging is advised to maximize the yield. *Thinning the large fan leaves in the later part of the flower cycle will promote more light getting to the lower buds, thus increasing your yield.* With an incredible smell and unique LA flavor, DNA s LA Confidential has won many awards. 1st Battle of the Bridge 2009 (independent grower) 1st Indica HT Cannabis Cup 2008* 1st Kush Cup Las Vegas 2007 (independent grower) 1st Indica IC420 Breederscup 2005 2nd Bio Highlife Cup 2009 2nd Indica HT Cannabis Cup 2005 3rd Indica HT Cannabis Cup 2004 3rd Kush Cup Las Vegas 2006 Strain of the Year 2006 Hightimes


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 17, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bullshit. Get over yourself. You've turned into a big mouthed bore.
> 
> UB


You would know about big mouthed bores every time you see a mirror.

Alex gorgeous plants and a great yield and genetics no offense but

*
*
But are one of these plants bigger than this top cola?

**


This is that cola left of the 2 liter the next biggest top is on the right this is one plant.


*you used 400 watt's for 3 plants one of mine got 500 no contest. *


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## cannawizard (Feb 17, 2013)

@budbrewer
@alexander

--nice bud porn guys., just here checking out the pics


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 17, 2013)

Thanks Wiz...

[video=youtube;ETHvSTT6PA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=ETHvSTT6PA8[/video]


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## elkukupanda (Feb 17, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Thanks Wiz...
> 
> [video=youtube;ETHvSTT6PA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=ETHvSTT6PA8[/video]


After listening this... Had to log in and say...
Good Job buddy!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 17, 2013)

Thanks, seems to say it all...


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 17, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Thanks Wiz...
> 
> [video=youtube;ETHvSTT6PA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ETHvSTT6PA8[/video]


Priceless!


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 18, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Happened to be looking at the description for LA Confidential on the breeders site here: http://dnagenetics.com/seeds/la-confidential
> 
> and noticed this..


That's not the first time a seed company has recommended leaf removal for better yields those who have done it know it works.

Internet Experts like UB who took the leaves off half a plant and didn't notice a difference. Their on a crusade to stop members from learning because there world is flat so everybody else's must be also.

Alex I take it from your lack of response you know all of your plants don't add up to one of mine you used 400 watt for 3 plants one of mine got 500 no contest.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 24, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That's not the first time a seed company has recommended leaf removal for better yields those who have done it know it works.
> 
> Internet Experts like UB who took the leaves off half a plant and didn't notice a difference. Their on a crusade to stop members from learning because there world is flat so everybody else's must be also.
> 
> Alex I take it from your lack of response you know all of your plants don't add up to one of mine you used 400 watt for 3 plants one of mine got 500 no contest.


why did UB remove any leaves at all, since that would be unscientific from his own stand point, ?
most likely another made up story.. seems fishy to me, 
if this guy really is a botanist it beggars belief 
most of his posts here are one or two lines, and he still uses the edit function on virtually every post he makes (imbecile) 
his plants look average at best, for someone with an ego that big they should be looking spectacular very poor show tut tut


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 24, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Thanks Wiz...
> 
> [video=youtube;ETHvSTT6PA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ETHvSTT6PA8[/video]


Damn, you got me humming that song when I wake up at 3 in the morning! That's one of those catchy songs that you can't shake lose. 

Watched it 20 times so far and emailed a link to my friends....thanks a rot!


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## edyah (Feb 25, 2013)

I study under Uncle Ben and so far this is what I see the unlearned gardener doing to his plants:

(Forum paradigms and the noob cannabis matrix prevalent on forums)

No disrespect, i say this toung in cheek with humor. Take no offensive noobs:

-If the soil is moist an inch down, don't water
-Or let the plant completely dry out its soil before watering
-PH is the problem for EVERYTHING. PH PH PH PH!!!!
-Yellow leaves during flowering is healthy and normal and encouraged for big budz
-c02 at 1500ppm for big budz....spare no expense, despite other limiting factors being out of whack.
-Germinate in paper towels (LOL)
-75 day temp, 69 night temp average* (when really there should be a 20 degree drop at night, and 85 is fine in day with RH lowered)
-High P in flower, no N for big budz!!!1!1! (when a balance is required)
-Hydro is the bestest (when soil will out grow "dro" any time when a noob is taught)
-Molasses works! (Not. Placebo)
-Compost tea! (Not. Placebo)
-Organics ONLY is the bestest ever!11!11!! (makes no difference to the plant)
-Co2 pellets in soil! (how dumb)
-Only buy top dollar cannabis specific products! (gimmick. Stay away from marketed stuff to stoners)
-Miracle grow suxors (it's fine. Amend your own soil. Alfalfa, bone/blood meal, dolomite lime, Copper Hydroxide -Lined pots for root pruning, vermiculite/perlite, potting mix with potting soil, and brown peat moss)
-Bloom foods baby! (hype)
-Romanticize your plants
-Idolize your plant
-Learn how to grow on forums and not stay away from general botany
-Anecdotal evidence is stronger than science concerning the romance of growing big budz1!!11!!
-Only order top dollar mutts and strains. Bag seed is crap (really the truth is, it's the same room just with the furniture moved around contrary to what the pollen chuckers sell you)
-Snake oils work (such as "liquid karma" "lucas formula")
-Leaves are bad. Pluck them all off for big budz.
-Leaves block light. Buds need light!1!1!!!
-The more complicated the better. Spare no cost for big budz!11!
-Don't not keep it simple
-MJ is a god


I am a noob and am about to do my first grow using Uncle Ben's simple, botany minded advice. Will do a grow journal and show that MJ is ...is....a plant! and should be grown like a plant.


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## edyah (Feb 25, 2013)

Hahaha, I like you kat. I don't worship plants11!!!!

repent from following forum doctrine.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Feb 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Damn, you got me humming that song when I wake up at 3 in the morning! That's one of those catchy songs that you can't shake lose.
> 
> Watched it 20 times so far and emailed a link to my friends....thanks a rot!


Im telling you, these guys know how to put on a show!!!

[video=youtube;ns7E5GCul7M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns7E5GCul7M[/video]


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 25, 2013)

edyah said:


> I study under Uncle Ben and so far this is what I see the unlearned gardener doing to his plants:
> 
> (Forum paradigms and the noob cannabis matrix prevalent on forums)
> 
> ...


Well done, and good luck with your first garden! FWIW, my first garden was about as good as any other. Why? Cause I used common botanical sense, already had gardening experience, had Mel Frank's Guide for the sexing drills and pitfalls, and didn't have an internet forum available.

UB


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## Figong (Feb 25, 2013)

How can the lucas formula, broken down into homebrew components that work when individual, or together be categorized as a snake oil? Am curious.


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## keebo3000 (Feb 25, 2013)

edyah said:


> I study under Uncle Ben and so far this is what I see the unlearned gardener doing to his plants:
> 
> (Forum paradigms and the noob cannabis matrix prevalent on forums)
> 
> ...


 compost tea's really? read TLO by the rev. i know you worship the good uncle. but there are more ways to skin a cat. but you have seemed to insult people just as your master does, so kudos, you are learning already!kiss-ass


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## keebo3000 (Feb 25, 2013)

its funny how people say" no offense" right before they say something they know someone will find offensive. why even bother?


----------



## Figong (Feb 25, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> its funny how people say" no offense" right before they say something they know someone will find offensive. why even bother?


It's a bit of comedic irony, and foreshadowing of what's coming at the same time.. is why when my wife says 'no offense', my mind tunes out the rest of her rambling and I continue on with my project(s).


----------



## Fazer1rlg (Feb 25, 2013)

Big leaves make big buds!


----------



## nick88 (Feb 25, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> You would know about big mouthed bores every time you see a mirror.
> 
> Alex gorgeous plants and a great yield and genetics no offense but
> 
> ...


Jeez,, that looks like something you would see in a Jurassic Park movie.. Nice work


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## edyah (Feb 25, 2013)

hey guys , I really did not mean offense. I'm a noob to but have been reading the last week straight on what not to do...and I find it funny all the hype that people soak up (myself included). the industry is a funny thing, and some are like spokesmen for it...just my two cents. I don't consider most of you noobs btw, how could I ?

and please accept my apology...i do not want to seem more than I am...I am learning and in doing so I see that some of you have really beautiful gardens.


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## edyah (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks for dropping knowledge over the years Uncle Ben...you've been a world of help. For me you brought growning back down to earth and removed cannabis off it's heavenly thrown that people have placed it up in idolatry.

I got most my soil ingredients today...it's almost ready to "mellow"


take care


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## edyah (Feb 25, 2013)

Figong said:


> How can the lucas formula, broken down into homebrew components that work when individual, or together be categorized as a snake oil? Am curious.


The Lucas shortcut does not provide all 16 trace elements by itself that a plant needs, that is unseen by the eye. . . so it's sold as a snake oil in that sense that you can fake out a plant.


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## Slab (Feb 25, 2013)

I believe gh's micro does have all that is needed. The Lucas formula does gardners a great service by eliminating the third part ( grow).
also uses good sense by cutting the application rates by a third. Great for the pocket.

i used extensively when doing hydro with large resovoirs with the great results. The add back system allows you to use one res for the entire grow.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 25, 2013)

edyah said:


> Thanks for dropping knowledge over the years Uncle Ben...you've been a world of help. For me you brought growning back down to earth and removed cannabis off it's heavenly thrown that people have placed it up in idolatry.
> 
> I got most my soil ingredients today...it's almost ready to "mellow"
> 
> ...


Thanks, and best to you. The more you grow all kinds of plant material, the better you will become at managing the pitfalls. Kinda like life itself - it's not the stressful situations that gets you down, it's how well you manage it.

Good luck,
UB


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## skunkd0c (Feb 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Bullshit. Get over yourself. You've turned into a big mouthed bore.
> 
> UB


I heard a rumor that Mickey Mouse wears an Uncle Ben wristwatch.


----------



## edyah (Feb 25, 2013)

Slab said:


> I believe gh's micro does have all that is needed. The Lucas formula does gardners a great service by eliminating the third part ( grow).
> also uses good sense by cutting the application rates by a third. Great for the pocket.
> 
> i used extensively when doing hydro with large resovoirs with the great results. The add back system allows you to use one res for the entire grow.


Hello friend Slab. My research the last week and more has shown otherwise, that the "Lucaus Shortcut" by itself does not provide all the trace elements in a complete regiminte (In very simple terms). However, that you can get by with a "decent" yield in hydro has been shown countless times, even by your good self. But at what cost to proper nutrition and conditions to the plant ? How much was lost that our naked eye surely cannot see ? How many bUdZ ? If it works for you happy are ye. Understanding plant biolgy and knowing what makes a plant tick on even the smallest scale can literally boost the end game (bUdZ). I'm not assuming you don't know anything, for I talk in general.

It's often in this community, that what we want to "belive" or what we want to "feel" is not often best for a plant. These plants were created specifically uncaring about our projections...

I hope all is well for you sir.


----------



## Slab (Feb 25, 2013)

edyah said:


> Hello friend Slab. My research the last week and more has shown otherwise, that the "Lucaus Shortcut" by itself does not provide all the trace elements in a complete regiminte (In very simple terms). However, that you can get by with a "decent" yield in hydro has been shown countless times, even by your good self. But at what cost to proper nutrition and conditions to the plant ? How much was lost that our naked eye surely cannot see ? How many bUdZ ? If it works for you happy are ye. Understanding plant biolgy and knowing what makes a plant tick on even the smallest scale can literally boost the end game (bUdZ). I'm not assuming you don't know anything, for I talk in general.
> 
> It's often in this community, that what we want to "belive" or what we want to "feel" is not often best for a plant. These plants were created specifically uncaring about our projections...
> 
> I hope all is well for you sir.



it's not a shortcut and in fact is very labor intensive. you monitor ph and EC constantly. it is not for the novice gardner by any means

you do realize we are talking about a basic NPK profile plus 9 micro nutrients. that is superior to most on the market and is non cannabis specific. It is used by Professionals in Agriculture.

what excactly do you think is missing?


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## edyah (Feb 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Thanks, and best to you. The more you grow all kinds of plant material, the better you will become at managing the pitfalls. Kinda like life itself - it's not the stressful situations that gets you down, it's how well you manage it.
> 
> Good luck,
> UB


Great analogy, being prepared to handle plant or even life pitfalls will result in better decisions and outcomes. Trials and tribulations - we are exercised in them.

I do plan on growing tomatoes along in my garden this go around, as a little observational study I will be doing against the cannabis crop. Do you recommend a favorite vegetable that I should consider to boost up experience for a novice ?


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## Apomixis (Feb 25, 2013)

Have we come to a decision? Do leaves block or absorb light?
i pulled most of the leaves offa my plants in anticipation. 
Wait, did I fuck up? Will the plant grow them back?


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 26, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Have we come to a decision? Do leaves block or absorb light?


They do both.


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## Figong (Feb 26, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> They do both.


Or neither (for the most part), depending on spectrum, with the other photomorphogenesis factors put into play.


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## Apomixis (Feb 26, 2013)

Ugh. Ok technically, _rhetorically_ you are right. If you assume green light is being used, yes, you're right. 
If you assume a normal growing situation with absorbable light, what is it then? 
Lets be real. Living leaf tissue absorbs light, dead leaf tissue does not.
It's a better explanation for those who haven't studied horticulture: leaves absorb light. 
_Especially_ those big leaves which absorb more light on the basis of surface area. It seems to me that plucking big leaves in favor of small leaves is a bit silly.
Not to mention that it is a bit disingenuous to put that information out there where inexperienced growers say: aww fuck all these big green leaves are getting in the way! At which point they pluck them all off and we see a thread that starts:Help! Plants don't look healthy! 
If you want to be technically correct, take two cuttings, grow them in the same situation, and show me in empirical terms how the redistribution of photosynthate can enhance interior or lower flower bud production or weight by using defoliation. 
My prediction: no statistical difference.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2013)

edyah said:


> Great analogy, being prepared to handle plant or even life pitfalls will result in better decisions and outcomes. Trials and tribulations - we are exercised in them.
> 
> I do plan on growing tomatoes along in my garden this go around, as a little observational study I will be doing against the cannabis crop. Do you recommend a favorite vegetable that I should consider to boost up experience for a novice ?


Don't know what part of the country you live in but after 40 years of growing tomatoes, we have the holy grail showcased at the 2012 San Antonio Rodeo, a selection chosen out of 4,500 varieties - "Rodeo" aka BHN 602. Second place for me is "Big Beef", 3rd is "Celebrity". "Juliet" is a fine big tomato taste, grape tomato. I don't like heirlooms for what I consider a lack of quality, disease resistance, culture (they crack, catface) or taste. 

UB


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## cannawizard (Feb 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't know what part of the country you live in but after 40 years of growing tomatoes, we have the holy grail showcased at the 2012 San Antonio Rodeo, a selection chosen out of 4,500 varieties - "Rodeo" aka BHN 602. Second place for me is "Big Beef", 3rd is "Celebrity". "Juliet" is a fine big tomato taste, grape tomato. I don't like heirlooms for what I consider a lack of quality, disease resistance, culture (they crack, catface) or taste.
> 
> UB


I like cooking with (Roma Grape) --Juliet, always great with reduction sauce recipes~


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> I like cooking with (Roma Grape) --Juliet, always great with reduction sauce recipes~


Yep, good choice. Try to get your hands on the BHN 602 aka 'Rodeo'. It's big, sugary sweet, rich rich big tomato flavor, paper thin skin that melts in your mouth, perfectly round, doesn't crack unless you get hit by hot drought conditions, good acid, super production. I canned 2.5 gals. last year of the sauce.

I'm picking and eating some incredible greenhouse tomatoes developed in...of all places....the Netherlands. I don't pull them until they get blood red. I trade them for fresh farm eggs from a neighbor and tomorrow gonna trade some for 2 gallons of raw cow's milk. Gonna do some cheesemaking.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> I heard a rumor that Mickey Mouse wears an Uncle Ben wristwatch.


Oh yeah? I heard a rumor that William Shatner wipes his butt with Dr. Spock images imprinted on toilet tissue.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 26, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Ugh. Ok technically, _rhetorically_ you are right. If you assume green light is being used, yes, you're right.
> If you assume a normal growing situation with absorbable light, what is it then?
> Lets be real. Living leaf tissue absorbs light, dead leaf tissue does not.
> It's a better explanation for those who haven't studied horticulture: leaves absorb light.
> ...


This is an extreme view picking all the leaves off, the opposite extreme is just as bad imo some folk leave all the dead leaves and yellow leaves on their plants as well as lower popcorn through fear
that if they touch anything the plant will turn hemi, or that all plants grow perfectly and do not need any training because of stupid myths populated by imbeciles
there are even folk on this forum who actually believe that the light leak from an extension cord can cause a plant to turn hemi more imbecilic myths 

finding the correct balance is what it is all about, that is the fun of experimenting

i prefer to keep lush newer growth on my plants removing the smaller leaves shoots and lower growth , selectively removing some of the larger leaves to allow a better spread of light 
over the canopy which helps lower and middle branches to climb upto the light and become colas, i try to keep as many leaves as possible but at the same time create a more open canopy 
maximizing the air flow through the plants, i would only encourage you to do your own experiments, rather than wait for others to do it for you, or tell you its ok to follow a certain course of action

peace


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## skunkd0c (Feb 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Oh yeah? I heard a rumor that William Shatner wipes his butt with Dr. Spock images imprinted on toilet tissue.


Congratulations, you managed to make a post without using the edit function.
Actually my avatar picture is evil Spock, not sure who Dr Spock is

Top tip > The fewer words you type the fewer error's you will make. 

Now this is going to complicate things even further for you
this is Nazi Spock








peace


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## Apomixis (Feb 26, 2013)

It's a common technique even used on tomatoes. I'm not saying it bad, just advanced. For new people who are just trying to grow healthy plants, the worst thing they can worry about is whether or not they should be removing leaves. 
That in mind, those people prolly shouldn't be looking around on advanced threads for growing advice, you know...


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## PJ Diaz (Feb 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> skunkd0c said:
> 
> 
> > I heard a rumor that Mickey Mouse wears an Uncle Ben wristwatch.
> ...


Troll it up much?. Your inner douche is showing.


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## edyah (Feb 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't know what part of the country you live in but after 40 years of growing tomatoes, we have the holy grail showcased at the 2012 San Antonio Rodeo, a selection chosen out of 4,500 varieties - "Rodeo" aka BHN 602. Second place for me is "Big Beef", 3rd is "Celebrity". "Juliet" is a fine big tomato taste, grape tomato. I don't like heirlooms for what I consider a lack of quality, disease resistance, culture (they crack, catface) or taste.
> 
> UB


I live in hot and humid Florida. Last year I grew the Ferris Morris Co. heirloom Brandy Wine tomatoes (5 plants), and a few of the Ferris Morris heirloom Cherry tomato kind, all out side. And Uncle Ben, let me tell you it was a hot mess! The sun beat down on them all day and one buy one I plucked scald tomatoes off stretchy, saggy, pitiful plants. I got pretty good and pitching them into a scrap pile, into the strike zone. Being thrown like baseballs (that was actually pretty fun though, ha)

I ended up, no kidding with two measly cherry tomatoes to eat. That's all. Bon appetit ? I was totally in the dark growing with no knowledge or understanding. I used General Hydroponic Flora Grow, Flora Micro and Flora bloom series, mixing the water with the recommendations on the back per its chart ratios. The soil was amended about 3 feet down with overpriced Fox Farm's Ocean Forest(wow newb).

Next to that crop line I had 4 Northern Light Feminized Auto Flowering mutts. They got about 6 inches high and yielded a few grams. Totally pitiful. I know now that a myraid of problems caused such a weak plant; chiefly my newb mindset. The heat, the humidity the poor soil amended in a sandy Florida ground. etc...




> 2012 San Antonio Rodeo, a selection chosen out of 4,500 varieties - "Rodeo" aka BHN 602. Second place for me is "Big Beef", 3rd is "Celebrity". "Juliet" is a fine big tomato taste, grape tomato.


I did a quick search and the San Antonio Rodeo seems like an amazing time and place to reveal your work. Wow, Juliet seems tasty as no other. I absolutely love the pungent smell of tomato on the vine. It's amazing. The top 3 out of 45 hundred...I could imagine. Send me a few seeds brah!

I am moving from the outdoors to inside. I have a 40 sf room (with another 20 if need be) perfect for my 1000 watt and hood. With two windows, one for a window a/c to help control the factors. I plan on growing my tests inside, as the elements outside kicked my butt up and down last spring/summer. Armed with a little knowledge or understanding and after reading for hours/days your posts across the interwebs I am confident more than ever that not only will I have relative success, but I will have so much fun at the same time. (ordering Mel Frank's book once I can swing it).

The tomato plant will be mixed in the MJ crop and i will be paying close attention. 

I'm considering using Jack's 20-20-20 classic or MG genearl 9-3-6 feed. Maybe use both to see what works to my pot mix. Good stuff.

peace


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> Congratulations, you managed to make a post without using the edit function.
> Actually my avatar picture is evil Spock, not sure who Dr Spock is
> 
> Top tip > The fewer words you type the fewer error's you will make.
> ...


Nice makeup. Do you hold your hand up with your little pinky bent too?

I seriously doubt if you are old enough to have watched any of the original Star Trek series. Your avatar is the original Dr. Spock.

Troll on...at warp speed.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2013)

edyah said:


> I live in hot and humid Florida. Last year I grew the Ferris Morris Co. heirloom Brandy Wine tomatoes (5 plants), and a few of the Ferris Morris heirloom Cherry tomato kind, all out side. And Uncle Ben, let me tell you it was a hot mess! The sun beat down on them all day and one buy one I plucked scald tomatoes off stretchy, saggy, pitiful plants. I got pretty good and pitching them into a scrap pile, into the strike zone. Being thrown like baseballs (that was actually pretty fun though, ha)


Your sandy soil will need to be amended with compost. Hot weather maters are Rodeo, Big Beef, Heatwave, Solar Fire, and Sunmaster and most cherry or grape tomatoes like Sweet 100 or Juliet. Being in Texas, I know all about mastering the heat issues.

Jack's 20-20-20 will be fine both on maters and pot. Understanding what you're working with first sure helps to understand where you need to go regarding plant nutrition. Send soil samples off to the U. of Florida for an analysis. Money well spent. For example, my outdoor veggie bed showed an excess of P, so the Aggie lab tech recommended NO organics or synthetics with P in it, only N.

UB


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## TrueMarleyMan (Feb 26, 2013)

UB...I demand you never leave this forum again! Lol...jk.....im glad to hear from you Unc. Seriously though,folks like me need you and I'm glad to get your advice whenever I can get it. That said....how did that Citrus FEed work out for you? I remember you saying you got a little of that to test it out.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Feb 26, 2013)

When I was making the 3rd back cross to the Thunderstuck clone (Bill Wonder made the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th and 6th back crosses). One of the specimens was fairly leafy. And while the plants weren't that big. There was a fair size grow tip at the center base of the plant which was receiving no or little light.

When I pulled it out, it began to bloom with ferocity. Obviously there was a huge difference, with what the bottom buds were doing, with little light as oppossed to more light.

Here's a comparison shot of the Vito clone and a 2nd back crosser to the TS clone, where I found the light deprived tip. Actually this probably isn't the exact 2nd back crosser, but it was one of them that was in the set.

 The Vito clone on the right, while it looks compariable to the plant on the left. The vito clone due to very heavy resination, weighed in at about almost 4 times the weight, to 2nd back crosser on the right. (<=these were flowered under fluroscent lighting only)


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 26, 2013)

TrueMarleyMan said:


> UB...I demand you never leave this forum again! Lol...jk.....im glad to hear from you Unc. Seriously though,folks like me need you and I'm glad to get your advice whenever I can get it. That said....how did that Citrus FEed work out for you? I remember you saying you got a little of that to test it out.


Haven't tried it on pot, does well with other tropicals. 

Thanks for the kind words.....

Grow hard,
UB


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## TrueMarleyMan (Feb 26, 2013)

I was looking for something with a little less P in it but I take it the 20-20-20 peters formula is perfectly fine for vegging?Did that have the necessary macros and micros in it? You gotta let us know how that goes if you decide to test that citrus FEed on pot plants.I was looking forward to that. Grow On

Marley


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## keebo3000 (Feb 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Haven't tried it on pot, does well with other tropicals.
> 
> Thanks for the kind words.....
> 
> ...


 sometimes you seem like a really great guy.......


----------



## Slab (Feb 28, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Have we come to a decision? Do leaves block or absorb light?
> i pulled most of the leaves offa my plants in anticipation.
> Wait, did I fuck up? Will the plant grow them back?


it blocks 5% for itself, reflects and transmitts the rest., keep in mind not every leaf is the same. the lower leaves are different internally. with offsetting leaves and the different blades counts on each one is perfection for absorbtion.

solar panel manufacts. could learn something. 


Uncle Ben is a great professor, he gives out homework with no time limits! 

and to you weirdos, go fly a kite

in traffic


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## Bud Brewer (Feb 28, 2013)

Go back twenty page's it's been proven only far red gets thru a bit.

Uncle Bmeat proved himself wrong again by putting up a link he didn't read showing very little usable light gets past.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 1, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't know what part of the country you live in but after 40 years of growing tomatoes, we have the holy grail showcased at the 2012 San Antonio Rodeo, a selection chosen out of 4,500 varieties - "Rodeo" aka BHN 602. Second place for me is "Big Beef", 3rd is "Celebrity". "Juliet" is a fine big tomato taste, grape tomato. I don't like heirlooms for what I consider a lack of quality, disease resistance, culture (they crack, catface) or taste.
> 
> UB


Tomatoes are "Red Gold" for my family. Had one "plot" yield 60.3 tons per acre last year. Its the row crop I like best...


----------



## Figong (Mar 1, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Go back twenty page's it's been proven only far red gets thru a bit.
> 
> Uncle Bmeat proved himself wrong again by putting up a link he didn't read showing very little usable light gets past.


Yup, far-red does quite well - It can easily penetrate top canopy, and is part of the reason that the red to far-red ratio needs to to be kept in check control stretching, or to induce it (based on what you're doing) Tis just one of the many reasons why a plant may stretch more under HPS than MH, as well. The HPS has more far-red in it.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Mar 1, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Uncle Ben said:
> 
> 
> > Don't know what part of the country you live in but after 40 years of growing tomatoes, we have the holy grail showcased at the 2012 San Antonio Rodeo, a selection chosen out of 4,500 varieties - "Rodeo" aka BHN 602. Second place for me is "Big Beef", 3rd is "Celebrity". "Juliet" is a fine big tomato taste, grape tomato. I don't like heirlooms for what I consider a lack of quality, disease resistance, culture (they crack, catface) or taste.
> ...


 Go troll somewhere else. Final warning.


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## Apomixis (Mar 1, 2013)

Off with their heads! Lol


----------



## Slab (Mar 1, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Go back twenty page's it's been proven only far red gets thru a bit.
> 
> Uncle Bmeat proved himself wrong again by putting up a link he didn't read showing very little usable light gets past.


What it stated was that the leaf absorbs 90%. What "gets past" is half, the rest gets reflected. 

-


----------



## mufastaa (Mar 1, 2013)

I think there are many benefits to removing leaves indoors where light is limited.

If they are well below the canopy and not near a budsite, i think it takes more water/nutrients to keep the leaf alive than it gets from the leaf.

Also removing these leaves helps airflow a lot, in my case removing lower leaves is necessary to keep RH below 50-60%.

I think an important fact is that every green part (buds too)of the plant contains photosynthesizing parts, and when buds are in direct light they obviously get much fatter(everyone should know this), and removing leaves is sometimes the best way to keep them in the light.

when removing leaves i keep in mind that like most plants, new leaves are much more efficient energy producers, and they are usually smaller so not a problem. All that being said I keep as many leaves as i can.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Tomatoes are "Red Gold" for my family. Had one "plot" yield 60.3 tons per acre last year. Its the row crop I like best...


Dats alot of speecie spiceey meataballa!

Gave my wife's surgeon and his crew about 10 lbs. of vine ripened maters today in exchange for a cortizone shot for her.  Yields are quite surprising too considering I left all the leaves on the plants. You'd think that according to conventional noobie wisdom they would have yielded far less.

UB


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## HeartlandHank (Mar 1, 2013)

[video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]

I know many started out on the grow bible..


----------



## keebo3000 (Mar 1, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> [video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]
> 
> I know many started out on the grow bible..


for outside grows of course.... ed rosenthal, who writes about indoor cultivation says different. he says trim for circulation and light penatration


----------



## cannawizard (Mar 2, 2013)

mufastaa said:


> I think there are many benefits to removing leaves indoors where light is limited.
> 
> If they are well below the canopy and not near a budsite, i think it takes more water/nutrients to keep the leaf alive than it gets from the leaf.
> 
> ...


Yes, there is definitely a difference between growing outdoors vs indoors, and thanks for sharing your experience concerning this topic.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 2, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> [video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]
> 
> I know many started out on the grow bible..


That's my bud! He articulates exactly the difference between feelings and real science.

UB


----------



## elkukupanda (Mar 2, 2013)

mufastaa said:


> I think there are many benefits to removing leaves indoors where light is limited.
> 
> If they are well below the canopy and not near a budsite, i think it takes more water/nutrients to keep the leaf alive than it gets from the leaf.
> 
> ...


The highlighted punch lines can't go together in my books.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Mar 2, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> for outside grows of course.... ed rosenthal, who writes about indoor cultivation says different. he says trim for circulation and light penatration


Isn't it something like remove *lower* leaves for circulation/humidity issues while in flowering?Don't you think that is quite a bit different than what you all are showing/talking about here? I think so.

I remove lower leaves and some bud sites too.... I like bigger/less buds... also I hand water my plants and rather than splashing the plants with water I just remove some low leaves and bud sites... Do you not think that he is talk about something closer to what I am doing rather than "defol for high yield, through veg and flower"? Does he not specifically say "in flower"?

Can you honestly say that Ed is in line with what you all are saying here? I don't think so. Just because it is indoors does not mean that the processes of the plant change.

Your garden is there for your enjoyment... do what you want, but I think Cervantes *nails* it when he says... 
"The bud will look cool, you'll be happy you did, you know, *you'll think you did something...* But what you did was retard the growth, you make it grow slower."


----------



## HeartlandHank (Mar 2, 2013)

Man, I hate to be a dick... but this has gotten a little ridiculous... nothing annoys me more than the non expert telling the expert...

The mother who tells her kids dr's no to immunizations, because"it isn't safe"...
The Christian who tells the archaeologist/anthropologist that he/she is wrong, because the bible says...
The amateur closet weed grower tells the botanist/plant physiologist that plucking leaves improves yields...

ha, ha and ha.

fuck it, nothing is going to change your minds... I am soooo out of this one.


----------



## Apomixis (Mar 2, 2013)

I'm with Hank. It's been real. Peace.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 2, 2013)

Slab said:


> What it stated was that the leaf absorbs 90%. What "gets past" is half, the rest gets reflected.
> 
> -


So 90 % gets absorbed like I always knew leaving 10 % so half of that gets past the other half gets reflected meaning little usable light gets thru just a bit of far red.

Like I have been saying and posting pictures that bud won't develop well or at all with low light those that haven't defoliated don't realize it produces a ton of leaves that choke out everything underneath that's why I still have 3 foot plants reflowering. I gave them a week to ripen and took the good bud but left hundreads of less developed bud to reflower.


----------



## PJ Diaz (Mar 2, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> [video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]
> 
> I know many started out on the grow bible..





Uncle Ben said:


> That's my bud! He articulates exactly the difference between feelings and real science.
> 
> UB


Really, that's your bud? Then why does he point out all those dead and yellowing leaves? Isn't that what you are always bashing noobs for?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2013)

Just some clarification on some points you made in the recently closed thread - 'Defoliation test'



Apomixis said:


> I'm with Hank. It's been real. Peace.
> 
> Lol. I think what we have here is... A failure to communicate.


Failure that some don't get it or won't.



> ....i can also clearly see the fact that removing a leaf retards the photosynthate production of a plant. If you dispute this, you do NOT know how plants work. The leaves are there to make compounds that feed growth. No?


Correct. We're getting somewhere. 



> also. Removing leaves around a bud will not enhance the bud development in any way, shape, or form. If you dispute this, you do not know how plants work. It is not opinion, it is fact. It's so entirely not disputed that asking a question like this in a university level class would get you laughed at.


No question about it. They (the mother pluckers) would get laughed right out of the room not only in a university class but any collection of commercial growers, whether it be greenhouse nurserymen, vineyard managers, tomato growers, etc.



> If you think a bud is like... an apple, you are mistaken. See, in apples, the fruit responds to sunlight is various ways like enhanced color or even sugar development. Peaches blush on the sunny side. So do plums and ... you get the point. Think about it. It makes sense, if a plant wants the fruit to be noticed and consequently eaten, its gotta be bright. Makes sense.


I've already posted about this issue. Most pit fruit is shaded but needs some filtered light to develop marketable attributes.....mainly nice color. If the product doesn't look good, the customer will not buy. Has NOTHING to with the process of photosynthesis which produces the simple and complex carbs that drive flower or fruit production or in the case of vineyard canopy management, judicious "leafing" is done to remove a certain chemical that produces a distasteful herbaceous character in wine. Debate is out on that one too as most experts think that 10% of direct sunlight is enough, which occurs because of winds moving the canopy around. 

*Vines produce sugar from carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. Energy is also required, and the energy comes from the sun. This process is called photosynthesis, and photosynthesis only takes place when sunlight falls on green leaves. When new shoots are growing early in the season, the vine moves most of the sugar from the leaves to the new growth where it is needed. Later, when the grapes are ripening, most of the sugar is moved from the leaves into the fruit. After harvest, the sugar is moved into the woody parts of the vine where it is stored until it is needed to start new years growth. *
http://rvva.wetpaint.com/page/Farming+Your+Vineyard

The part I underlined is what Jorge was alluding to. It's just common sense, for bonafide horticulturists anyway.



> Buds are flowers- wind pollinated flowers. There is no reason whatsoever for this plant to develop these pathways. So it doesn't make any sense for light to affect flower development. It would be a waste of resources. These pathways don't exist in MJ or plants with the reproduction methods it employs. Period.


Correct, nor do cannabis flowers have any real value to the plant when it comes to photosynthesis. Photosynthesis drives flower production, not the other way around. 

Again, those promoting defoliation have NO clue about what makes a plant tick. 

UB


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## medical/420 (Mar 3, 2013)

If you cant TUCK it, than PLUCK it. get light on all the buds


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> If you cant TUCK it, than PLUCK it. get light on all the buds


There you have it kiddies, yet another example of someone that doesn't know what makes a plant tick. Cannabis forums are full of them.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> There you have it kiddies, yet another example of someone that doesn't know what makes a plant tick. Cannabis forums are full of them.


gotta love how he just pops in with that crap 186 pages later, then has the nerve to call himself medical. LOL


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## Apomixis (Mar 3, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> If you cant TUCK it, than PLUCK it. get light on all the buds


Dude, is that all you have to offer?
How about this one: if you can suck it, fuck it. Are you going to follow that little gem? I'd say your lady would be a little confused if You did... 
Lets get technical here! Google shit. Find research. I know I found plenty of materials that supported you position _in other crops. _Find a study that focuses on a similar plant in ANY way... Annuals, wind pollinated plants, anything. Present. It's called proof, you know, the stuff that society functions on! You can change my mind with proof. I promise this fully.


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## Slab (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> So 90 % gets absorbed like I always knew leaving 10 % so half of that gets past the other half gets reflected meaning little usable light gets thru just a bit of far red.
> 
> Like I have been saying and posting pictures that bud won't develop well or at all with low light those that haven't defoliated don't realize it produces a ton of leaves that choke out everything underneath that's why I still have 3 foot plants reflowering. I gave them a week to ripen and took the good bud but left hundreads of less developed bud to reflower.


Follow closely now, once the Leaf absorbs the light it keeps just 5%. The rest is transmitted and reflected.


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## Apomixis (Mar 3, 2013)

Yeah, photosynthesis is only 5% efficient. SO LETS REMOVE LEAVES. Retarded.
If you argue for the manipulation of the plants growth to fill a space, great! It works, like topping. 
Now you want to tell me how a dense object like a bud is somehow better at photosynthesis than leaves! Right. Go for it.


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## Apomixis (Mar 3, 2013)

It's amazing, on the other defoliation thread, I tried to bridge a gap based on fact. It got shut down. Who's going to benefit from that?


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## Apomixis (Mar 3, 2013)

OMG how did I get pulled back into this?!


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## medical/420 (Mar 3, 2013)

Ok sorry, in *my* OPINION when there is a fan leave blocking a BUD ,if you can't tuck it, pluck it. This is just how *I* do it, works good for *ME. * This method works great for *ME* I get fat buds all the way to the bottom. what works for *ME* mite not work for _YOU ,

_I grow buds, that is what i want, I am not trying to grow leafs, I just throw those away when i harvest.

I could careless what you guys think, i will stick with what i know... LOL


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 3, 2013)

Slab said:


> Follow closely now, once the Leaf absorbs the light it keeps just 5%. The rest is transmitted and reflected.


The study that uncle ben posted about a hundred pages back contradicts the study you posted. IMO the studies are flawed, and also very old.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Yeah, photosynthesis is only 5% efficient. SO LETS REMOVE LEAVES. Retarded.


Jorge called it (them) "weird". Nice way to put it lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> [/I]I grow buds, that is what i want, I am not trying to grow leafs,


And what in the hell do you think produces buds? 

I know exactly what you mean Apomixis. I keep asking the same question, how did I get suckered back into this discussion LOL? 

Pearls before swine......


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I know exactly what you mean Apomixis. I keep asking the same question, how did I get suckered back into this discussion LOL?


.. Via your troll like nature.


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## Slab (Mar 3, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> The study that uncle ben posted about a hundred pages back contradicts the study you posted. IMO the studies are flawed, and also very old.


The study Uncle Ben provided only covered absorption. No mention of transmittance, reflection, and/or heat loss.

Instead facing that feeling of being dead wrong you guys are using excuses to remain ignorant.

you forget the 40 watt shop light keeping a 4 ft mother plant green and lush for years?

was this not an ah ha moment?


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 3, 2013)

Slab said:


> PJ Diaz said:
> 
> 
> > The study that uncle ben posted about a hundred pages back contradicts the study you posted. IMO the studies are flawed, and also very old.
> ...


Although I could be mistaken I believe that your wrong about the study ub posted. It did include transmittance. 

Like I said before I don't keep mothers, so thanks for the info on that. Not real sure what your point is there though.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 3, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> This mango haze leaning girl had most of her leaves removed by around week 8 of flower, she took 14 weeks total, yielded just over 21 oz (600g)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice defoliated plant that kicks ass with only five weeks veg some people can't even come close growing outside with months of veg with hazes.

Note the lack of leaves even if it wasn't defoliated their wouldn't be a lot but the bud does photosynthesize as you can see it keeps growing these are not apples not even close in any way.

The defoliation test thread was closed because the mod rollitup had deleted at least three pro defoliation members posts and we all complained they were relevant posts to the thread but all the trolling was never deleted so I repeated my post again and would do it again but he closed the tread instead of dealing with the trolls.

The site bias is incredible deleting posts because they make a point not for bad language or abuse those are encouraged and protected. 

The actual test is going great natural and defoliated are even the topped ones are half the size but this site will not see the results try it yourself it works. 

I have deleted my pics this site will not see my monster bud again keep following the average it will maintain the status quota small average plants that people hide far behind trying to make something look bigger than it is. 

I only posted good pics of monster bud on pails or with rulers I have nothing to hide my pics spoke for themselves. 

Defoliation works as you can see from the above pictures and from my own pics we grew monster plants so it isn't the evil method everybody is fighting over for no reason other than are plants are more impressive than most that has put people at odds with what they think vs what they see you can only know if you try.

It does no long term harm and is much better than topping even after weeks of recovery there is still no contest that is what many fear they will see real results one way or another but the mods play favorites and this test will continue elsewhere Good Growing to all.

Books are not science they are opinions of the author not facts be your own judge try it for yourself before you claim things as fact based on someones opinion that eventually gets proven wrong or modified that is progress and how we have learned forever.


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## Apomixis (Mar 3, 2013)

"Books are not science they are opinions of the author not facts be your own judge try it for yourself before you claim things as fact based on someones opinion that eventually gets proven wrong or modified that is progress and how we have learned forever."

There are two kinds of books, actually. Fiction, which are the kind you believe in, and non-fiction, the kinds people like me read.
Google those words and open a brand new, shiny, open, and wonderful world for yourself. Some books are true!
There is a lot of work that goes into plant science, and you tell me its invalid, opinion? Dude, are you real? Really? Rrrrreally?

There are so many factors that can result in the pictures you post. 
You see, a _scientist_ considers factors, qualifies and quantifies them, and statistically proves that a null hypothesis is not possible. This is known as the scientific method. 
What you do is the complete opposite. You say: do this (based on a picture) and you will get the result. It's your methodology that has been avoided for.... As long as real science has existed. You meet my resistance as a character that uninformed people who join this site look up to. You are a role model here LMFAO. You should help people, not mislead them! And that is really what you are doing! They don't know better, so off they go fertilizing seedlings with 1000W laying on them while they go plucking away those nasty leaves. With bag seed no less! LMFAO. No wonder the plant problems forum is by far the largest....

I tried to be open, and saw the validity of defoliation as a cultural tool that helps to shape a plant to a particular environment. I accept this. Why? It's as far as I can assume your methods are correct. Even that is scientifically risky. You provide nothing beyond pictures! The rest, I need to see proven. Your evidence stops there. You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so I can only assume you bought some really great genotypes from a breeder who, more than likely, doesn't go pulling leaves off his plants. 

Now it's your turn to tell me about the fake world I live in. Go!

EDIT: those pictures are amazing. You can't prove to me EVER that they were the direct result of defoliation, but they are amazing.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 3, 2013)

Most marijuana books are based on opinion not science they might quote a study once. Their are scientific studies but few deal with pot and comparing them to fruit trees or anything else is wrong but grow your average weed I believe in freedom of speech not like this site.


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## Figong (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Most marijuana books are based on opinion not science they might quote a study once. Their are scientific studies but few deal with pot and comparing them to fruit trees or anything else is wrong but grow your average weed I believe in freedom of speech not like this site.


Highly recommend you pick up a copy of Robert C Clarke's book on Marijuana Botany and read it before you try to debate this one.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Nice defoliated plant that kicks ass with only five weeks veg some people can't even come close growing outside with months of veg with hazes.
> 
> Note the lack of leaves even if it wasn't defoliated their wouldn't be a lot but the bud does photosynthesize as you can see it keeps growing these are not apples not even close in any way.
> 
> ...


*looks like some nice fluffy bud there.*


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 3, 2013)

The mods stopped the evidence to maintain the flat earth mentality the last pictures must have made them think the defoliated are the same as natural and double the topped ones how can that be they have been told different.

I have posted over a dozen real studies showing it works for many different plants so why couldn't it work with this plant that does photosynthesize on the bud not just the tiny bud leaves but if you haven't done it how can you know.

My pics were plenty with 2 litter bottles also colas covering 20 litter buckets plus a four foot drywall square to give scale repeatedly because I got nothing to embellish it's not like I hid far behind a one ounce cola and stretched my hands forward to give my avatar the illusion that it's a big plant when it's not even close.

The leaves grow back fast and more of them this is mostly for veg I only do half defoliation 3 weeks in flower and a last cleanup before chop.

My testing will continue with amounts and times of defoliation and also comparing all the training types plus light experiments mix and feed experiments.

I am getting two new strains and starting plants to clone for outside so I will have plenty to test in the next couple of months.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 3, 2013)

That is a lemon haze they are an aerie sativa that was said at the top of the post and if you knew more it would be obvious it's a very big plant it's not mine they are a denser hybrid.

I have a pure sativa coming from a friend of a friend and still have to get something for outside I'm far north.

I'm growing it and testing it the debate is irreverent it isn't going to make the topped ones catch up, the natural ones being the same size as defoliated for now soon defoliation will real start to go crazy with believe it or not more leaves than the natural making a denser bush you can see it now but it will be more obvious later.

So if you believe a leaf isn't replaced by more or that the plant will stop growing because it lost some leaves you are wrong plants get eaten by many animals and bounce back stronger this is more natural than topping. After defoliating twice the untouched topped ones are still half the height and not much more branching so what really slows a plant down untill you do it you will never know.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> That is a lemon haze they are an aerie sativa that was said at the top of the post and if you knew more it would be obvious it's a very big plant it's not mine they are a denser hybrid.
> 
> I have a pure sativa coming from a friend of a friend and still have to get something for outside I'm far north.
> 
> ...


 yeah, you lost me dude, Anyone can grow big airy buds and then claim some b.s excuse why,then brag about how big they are while wet. the bottom line is those things are foxtailed bad. Pulling leaves causes the plant to replenish the leaves, which takes away energy from making flowers. Good luck with your fight, but I have seen enough.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 3, 2013)

You clearly don't know sativas at all that is the way it grows no matter what, your lack of experience is very obvious. 

My plants were tight heavy monster sized bud the colas were almost the size of a 5 gallon real pictures with things to show scale I got nothing to hide proof is in the pics not theory lets see your pics.

Leaves are always growing till the last couple of weeks with most strains and I only removed half the leaf at 3 weeks flower most of the training is done in veg making more leaves your lack of experience continues to amaze but I'm here to help.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Nice defoliated plant that kicks ass with only five weeks veg some people can't even come close growing outside with months of veg with hazes.


1 - that isn't a true Haze (pure sativa hybrid0,

2 - you could have doubled your yield if you had left the plant alone.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Their are scientific studies but few deal with pot and comparing them to fruit trees or anything else is wrong but grow your average weed I believe in freedom of speech not like this site.


That right there is the opinion of someone that has little gardening experience. You are flat out clueless.

UB


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## akula (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I have posted over a dozen real studies showing it works for many different plants


No you have not. 

In fact you have not posted one single study that shows defoliation increases anything in a healthy environment with healthy plants.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 3, 2013)

akula said:


> No you have not.
> 
> In fact you have not posted one single study that shows defoliation increases anything in a healthy environment with healthy plants.


To be fair, he's had many legitimate posts deleted by the site admin, so it's hard to know what was posted and what wasn't. these posts didn't include the same level of insults that UB regularly sinks to, so we're only left to wonder why they were deleted in the first place.


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## akula (Mar 3, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> To be fair, he's had many legitimate posts deleted by the site admin, so it's hard to know what was posted and what wasn't. these posts didn't include the same level of insults that UB regularly sinks to, so we're only left to wonder why they were deleted in the first place.


No it wasn't deleted, he just failed to really read any of the studies. Instead he cherry picked quotes out of context


akula said:


> No they dont. In fact I cannot find one study there that is strictly talking about increased yield through defoliation.
> 
> Yes there are studies about defoliation through cow consumption and the effects of their flatulence to increase C02.
> 
> ...


I have always asked for one legitimate study. I would love to read one, but I'm not wasting my time reading studies that have no bearing on the topic.


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## Figong (Mar 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> #1 - that isn't a true Haze (pure sativa hybrid,
> 
> 2 - you could have doubled your yield if you had left the plant alone.


Depending on method used, I would arguably say more than doubled.. and that's not even factoring bulb spectrums that most wouldn't use, and using side bulbs too... <sarcasm> but I'm new to this game, so I guess I should listen to Bud Brewer and cut off every leaf that doesn't show flowering site, just to force all the energy to only those branches so I can grow a plant that looks like the Charlie Brown Christmas tree. </sarcasm>


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## chuck estevez (Mar 3, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> You clearly don't know sativas at all that is the way it grows no matter what, your lack of experience is very obvious.
> 
> My plants were tight heavy monster sized bud the colas were almost the size of a 5 gallon real pictures with things to show scale I got nothing to hide proof is in the pics not theory lets see your pics.
> 
> Leaves are always growing till the last couple of weeks with most strains and I only removed half the leaf at 3 weeks flower most of the training is done in veg making more leaves your lack of experience continues to amaze but I'm here to help.


typical troll answer, I don't need to post pics, I'm not running around claiming to have reinvented the wheel. Grown lots of strains, all have been hybrids. I wouldn't waste my time and energy growing a pure sativa indoors(if I could find one) And, if it was a pure sativa, it would have very slim and few leaves and wouldn't need any (plucking) Gee, And I don't know sativas, ninja please.


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## Figong (Mar 3, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> typical troll answer, I don't need to post pics, I'm not running around claiming to have reinvented the wheel. Grown lots of strains, all have been hybrids. I wouldn't waste my time and energy growing a pure sativa indoors(if I could find one) And, if it was a pure sativa, it would have very slim and few leaves and wouldn't need any (plucking) Gee, And I don't know sativas, ninja please.


And on top of that, Chuck is just a dude, playing a dude, disguised as another dude. He's actually your neighbor who outgrows your lame excuse for colored popcorn.


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## mrCRC420 (Mar 3, 2013)

So Anyways...
Usually, I will bend any leaves that are in the way of bud sights; especially in the case of an LST plant. However, sometimes, I will cut a leaf that is constantly in the way or just throwing off the plant's balance. While, yes, this creates a loss in energy and food - marijuana is a weed/vegetable and the energy will be found again; thus, if I feel like cutting something, I cut it. It is pretty damn rare that I'll cut a fan leaf but I'm not scared at all!

Consider Super-Croppings, It's A Resilient Herb!


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## Apomixis (Mar 3, 2013)

The plant reserves starches for situations like this, the roots and stem can really drive new growth. 
Seems like mrCRC knows what he is doing.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1 - that isn't a true Haze (pure sativa hybrid0,
> 
> 2 - you could have doubled your yield if you had left the plant alone.


Ya mostly pure crossed to keep it from going 20 weeks instead of 14weeks but it still produced 21 ozs about as much as you did with a whole summer of veg endless sun and what should have been endless roots your jealously is obvious. 

You mean I could have got well over 4 pounds with a 1000 watt Only if listened to you and grow small plants like in your avatar.
I could have had 4 plants instead of 2 that would have gotten me over 3 pounds maybe 4 with proper defoliation and some tweaks something you will never get close to.



Uncle Ben said:


> That right there is the opinion of someone that has little gardening experience. You are flat out clueless.
> 
> UB


I am out growing you even after not growing for more than 6 years and only using my homemade nutes and mixes something you can't do if it doesn't come as a chemical your lost and still can't grow on my level.
I grew my first plant in 1984 your jealousy never stops you have to follow me around trolling my thread because it was showing the defoliated plants were even with the naturals and twice the size of the topped one's something your lack of experience and testing couldn't understand so you have a tantrum.




akula said:


> No you have not.
> 
> In fact you have not posted one single study that shows defoliation increases anything in a healthy environment with healthy plants.


Your reading comprehension is very limited only one study dealt with drought the rest didn't but you know everything because you read a couple of books and have never run tests or tried anything outside the box so be happy with your average yields.



PJ Diaz said:


> To be fair, he's had many legitimate posts deleted by the site admin, so it's hard to know what was posted and what wasn't. these posts didn't include the same level of insults that UB regularly sinks to, so we're only left to wonder why they were deleted in the first place.


I never swear in my posts I don't need to I know what's what just because so many trolls are defensive about me posting bucket sized colas that are just a fraction of the plant Intimidating and jealousy comes into play when your on top the untalented always want to knock you down to their level.
I'm high above that testing and reflowering large plants doing things against the grain and getting much better results then following a book written long ago and never actually trying anything new.



Figong said:


> Depending on method used, I would arguably say more than doubled.. and that's not even factoring bulb spectrums that most wouldn't use, and using side bulbs too... <sarcasm> but I'm new to this game, so I guess I should listen to Bud Brewer and cut off every leaf that doesn't show flowering site, just to force all the energy to only those branches so I can grow a plant that looks like the Charlie Brown Christmas tree. </sarcasm>


I have a spectrum that most wouldn't use a 7200k enhanced red metal halide vertical so you were saying something about yield being double that would be 4.5 pounds.
I will get close to on my next run with six monster plants and real experience something none of you jealous trolls could even come close to so grow you little plants and "cut off every leaf that doesn't show flowering site" this makes no sense as do most of these posts making up things that I never said but jealousy brings out the smallness in people no big deal I grow charlie brown christmas trees that grow out to be huge bushes with colas the size of 5 gallon buckets.



chuck estevez said:


> typical troll answer, I don't need to post pics, I'm not running around claiming to have reinvented the wheel. Grown lots of strains, all have been hybrids. I wouldn't waste my time and energy growing a pure sativa indoors(if I could find one) And, if it was a pure sativa, it would have very slim and few leaves and wouldn't need any (plucking) Gee, And I don't know sativas, ninja please.


Only trolls argue unarmed you don't post pics because nothing you have ever done will compare to my first plants out of retirement my next round will be much better if that is possible and yes from your earlier post you clearly don't know anything about sativas back pedaling much?



mrCRC420 said:


> So Anyways...
> Usually, I will bend any leaves that are in the way of bud sights; especially in the case of an LST plant. However, sometimes, I will cut a leaf that is constantly in the way or just throwing off the plant's balance. While, yes, this creates a loss in energy and food - marijuana is a weed/vegetable and the energy will be found again; thus, if I feel like cutting something, I cut it. It is pretty damn rare that I'll cut a fan leaf but I'm not scared at all!
> 
> Consider Super-Croppings, It's A Resilient Herb!


So you have done side by sides with supercropping I'd like to see it because it can really slow a plant down like topping but you guys grow whatever way you like I have tried every method of training unlike most.

I like the top colas and the speed of growth with defoliation it is kicking the topped plants asses but unless you actually do it you can only talk theory. 

My test will be finished elsewhere the proof is already showing the topped plants are half the size with just a bit more branch length without the top I thought they would grow faster but no they can't keep up without the top.

I have wasted plenty of time trying to get the ignorant to understand another training method but Ignorance is bliss enjoy your plants one day you may have the balls to try something new and get some actual experience and results good luck to you all Bud Brewer out.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 4, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Ya mostly pure crossed to keep it from going 20 weeks instead of 14weeks but it still produced 21 ozs about as much as you did with a whole summer of veg endless sun and what should have been endless roots your jealously is obvious.
> 
> You mean I could have got well over 4 pounds with a 1000 watt Only if listened to you and grow small plants like in your avatar.
> I could have had 4 plants instead of 2 that would have gotten me over 3 pounds maybe 4 with proper defoliation and some tweaks something you will never get close to.
> ...


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 4, 2013)

You seem to do that a lot learn to grow it won't hurt your head as much with just a bit of experience.

So no pictures that could even come close I understand why your upset with your inferiority.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 4, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> You seem to do that a lot learn to grow it won't hurt your head as much with just a bit of experience.
> 
> So no pictures that could even come close I understand why your upset with your inferiority.


I don't fall for that troll response. I do 2 runs to your 1, so what's better, nice dense nugs finished in 8 weeks, or big fluffy buds that take 14 weeks of energy to finish? You aren't convincing anyone here.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 4, 2013)

The only reason the defoil test thread was closed is because he knew it was failing to show his supposed point. So rather than admit failure he had the thread closed as a cop out, plain and simple. We all saw the untouched plants where outperforming the mugged plants. The 'they recover in 3 days' my ass. No pics at picking time and three days later to prove that. Actually very few pics at all. I actually won a few bets through PMs. I told you guys what was going to happen to the thread even before it happened. That's called REAL experience in REAL world situation's BB is a rookie that got lucky on a grow with some bomb genetics, I have figured out he must be like seven feet tall though. Some of those pics taken down from above those '54 inch' plants, clearly taken a foot or two above them, yet his crock clad feet where on the floor, simply amazing. That's why he deleted all his pics. He knew a few where getting ready to call him out on many of the inconsistencies in them. Just a bunch of bullshit from him. And now he's talking about how he's bred shorter flowering times? What a fucking joke, bahahahaha, too funny. Keep practicing little buddy and one day mommy may take your training wheels off for you..


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 4, 2013)

Yep, and like ol Georgie says, "that's just weird.".


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 4, 2013)

Weird yet predictable......


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## akula (Mar 4, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Your reading comprehension is very limited only one study dealt with drought the rest didn't but you know everything because you read a couple of books and have never run tests or tried anything outside the box so be happy with your average yields.


My reading comprehensions is just fine but I am starting to question your ethics. I asked you months ago to point out which of the studies, that you listed, were based on defoliation as a method of increased yields and you were unable to. Each of those studies that I looked into were simply studies that were trying to minimize the loss of yield from certain pests or conditions that caused unwanted defoliation. They tried to minimize those losses through different means like selective defoliation, rather then random like via the insects. I post the question again in case you would like to actually respond this time. 

*

No they dont. In fact I cannot find one study there that is strictly talking about increased yield through defoliation. 

Yes there are studies about defoliation through cow consumption and the effects of their flatulence to increase C02. 

Yes there is a study that shows the effects of defoliation to put off silking in corn. What correlation do you make there?

Yes their is a study about diminishing defoliation loses, caused by insects, simulated through targeted insect defoliation to minimize yield loss. I dont think you want to use that one right? Since it part of the hypothesis is that defoliation, via insects cause damaged loss of crops because reduced biomass. 

As far as I can tell, every study you listed is trying to find ways to minimize yield loss, by optimizing defoliation...not because its a super sweet gardening trick....but because defoliation is a problem certain crops are faced with in certain environments naturally. 

So which one should we focus on? I am not going to waste all day rummaging through studies that have no significant value to your point.


​




*


----------



## Figong (Mar 4, 2013)

Bud Brewer.. question for you. What happens when the plants are in need of dire sugars they simply can't keep up with or attain due to having fan leaves chopped off? (I'm ready for a legitimate debate without personal attacks, if you're up for it - will end this once and for all.)


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 4, 2013)

There are always leaves left behind they may be small but in 3 days replace the leaf mass. I let them go at least a week usually two before veg defoliation happens again so the sugars are always present and not a concern I don't keep them stripped naked all the time.
Whether you believe it or not you end up with more leaves and branches driving more growth later on.
It's more like a imaginary deer comes by every couple of weeks and eats the big leaves off my dog even did it so it happens in nature all the time also with hail and wind plus bugs this is a natural process.


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## Figong (Mar 4, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> There are always leaves left behind they may be small but in 3 days replace the leaf mass. I let them go at least a week usually two before veg defoliation happens again so the sugars are always present and not a concern I don't keep them stripped naked all the time.
> Whether you believe it or not you end up with more leaves and branches driving more growth later on.
> It's more like a imaginary deer comes by every couple of weeks and eats the big leaves off my dog even did it so it happens in nature all the time also with hail and wind plus bugs this is a natural process.


I can see where you equate that.. but 3/4 of a leaf gone still provides some energy to the plant, which is why many recommend against the full cutting. I've seen cutting 1/2 of the leaf off work sort of, with mixed results just the same... Phytology of this plant is pretty detailed, and Robert C Clarke (leading cannabis researcher for a group in Amsterdam), who also happens to be highly regarded in his views.. details the processes.. and points out that even full fan leaves with light in some instances are simply not enough for max growth/yield.. and is the very same reason why people run molasses as part of the regimen.


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## akula (Mar 4, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Your reading comprehension is so poor my plants didn't go 14 weeks the lemon haze Skunkdoc grew did DO YOU UNDERSTAND so no pics WHY?..........


Man you are completely all over the place. I love the way you start your replies with insults continue your insults throughout then cry about others insults on some other thread. You may need to take a break.


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## Sir.Ganga (Mar 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Yields are quite surprising too considering I left all the leaves on the plants. You'd think that according to conventional noobie wisdom they would have yielded far less.
> 
> UB


Really though...You have proven that you do not know the difference between a good crop and a bad one, anyone with a little knowledge and can read, can see for themself EXACTLY what you are. 

An _*Outdoor Gardener *_that has limited knowledge about INDOOR Gardening but because you can drop a seed outdoors and it grows, think he's a GANGA GURU.

_*WELL YA AIN'T!

*_If your Conventional noobies do this:


I guess you can call me a noobie then....But really when it comes to indoors...SHUT UP and Take NOTES...You have a lot to learn!


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## chuck estevez (Mar 4, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Really though...You have proven that you do not know the difference between a good crop and a bad one, anyone with a little knowledge and can read, can see for themself EXACTLY what you are.
> 
> An _*Outdoor Gardener *_that has limited knowledge about INDOOR Gardening but because you can drop a seed outdoors and it grows, think he's a GANGA GURU.
> 
> ...


Dude, You try so hard to have a following like UB, but your ideas are all assbackwards.
I have never seen someone so green with envy.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 4, 2013)

Figong said:


> I can see where you equate that.. but 3/4 of a leaf gone still provides some energy to the plant, which is why many recommend against the full cutting. I've seen cutting 1/2 the leaf off work sort of, with mixed results just the same... Phytology of this plant is pretty detailed, and Robert C Clarke (leading cannabis researcher for a group in Amsterdam), who also happens to be highly regarded in his views.. details the processes.. and points out that even full fan leaves with light in some instances are simply not enough for max growth/yield.. and is the very same reason why people run molasses as part of the regimen.


I have heard of trimming leaves instead of removal but the reason I do it is to force the side growth out to become new big fan leaves. 

I leave the leaves at the top and side branch ends to keep growing removing the rest of the big leaves forcing the secondary branches out to replace theleaf mass and I only did a half defoliation In flower it was so thick at 3 weeks and a cleanup a couple of weeks before chop.

I ran molasses for the potassium cal/mag iron trace elements and sugar for the bacteria to feed the plant.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 4, 2013)

Figong said:


> Bud Brewer said:
> 
> 
> > There are always leaves left behind they may be small but in 3 days replace the leaf mass. I let them go at least a week usually two before veg defoliation happens again so the sugars are always present and not a concern I don't keep them stripped naked all the time.
> ...


If you read Clarke's book you'll find all references of his towards leaf removal is mainly speculation, full of "may" and "possibly", but nothing empirical.. Take a look for yourself on page 46.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 4, 2013)

It is what it is...


[video=youtube;NvgzNEPhYQA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvgzNEPhYQA[/video]


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## Guitar Man (Mar 4, 2013)

You guys argue all the fuck you want to!! I've learned a TON of good things in these "Debates". I will say this though(I just said this in another post): I did a massive amount of research before I even threw a seed in the ground, and the common denominator I found amongst experienced growers, and the general agreement about leaf removal was this; DON'T!

So, I pretty much leave my leaves alone, unless they are dying or dead, and even my low yield plants turned out to be excellent smoke and affect.

In my current grow, I did use UB's topping technique, and the plants are the best I've ever grown. Now, I didn't get this advice from UB, but I have left my leaves ALONE! When all of the goodies have been drained out of a leaf, I tug on it to see if it's ready to give up. If it comes off easy, it's gone, otherwise I just keep checking.

One thing about me, though; I like trying new things. I like to experiment and I log every detail of my grows, so I would be willing to try defoiling/removing leaves just to see what happens.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 4, 2013)

[video=youtube;7nKBKPcycFE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nKBKPcycFE[/video]


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## Guitar Man (Mar 4, 2013)

[video=youtube;CpOjQvADLG4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpOjQvADLG4[/video]


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## Slab (Mar 4, 2013)

Brewer, tell the truth. You said that mango was smooth smoking. Is that code for flavorless?


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## Figong (Mar 4, 2013)

Slab said:


> Brewer, tell the truth. You said that mango was smooth smoking. Is that code for flavorless?


Hmm, I must have missed that.. which breeder has a mango that's flavorless?


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 4, 2013)

I never grew the lemon haze skunkdoc did I just cleared this up on the last page or did that post get deleted? I quoted him a couple of pages back he grew a 21 oz defoliated plant that I never smoked or commented on any smooth smoke but mine is smooth flavorful with almost no cough at all organic all the way no snap crack pop.


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## chuck estevez (Mar 4, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I never grew the lemon haze skunkdoc did I just cleared this up on the last page or did that post get deleted? I quoted him a couple of pages back he grew a 21 oz defoliated plant that I never smoked or commented on any smooth smoke but *mine is smooth flavorful with almost no cough at all organic all the way no snap crack pop*.


 this right here tells me you have no clue. Thanks for playing though.


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## cannawizard (Mar 5, 2013)

I just wished more people on the forums actually did side-by-side runs of the strains they tested/experimented with "defol", and posted their findings, so we could get a better view concerning this very heated debate. At the moment, I can't provide any useful data regarding this practice~


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 5, 2013)

Leave them alone and you get 4 ft plants in 8 weeks from seed. Sorry BB but you lucky bucket cola aint going to cut it against this beauty. And BJ, um I mean PJ maybe its time you actually grow something other than a hard on for Clay Akin....









My vote. Energy producers without a doubt...'thats a fact Jack'.

Roger Wilco...over and out..............


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 5, 2013)

Guitar Man said:


> [video=youtube;CpOjQvADLG4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpOjQvADLG4[/video]


Now thats what I am talking about............


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 5, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> this right here tells me you have no clue. Thanks for playing though.


Winner winner chicken dinner.........


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## Sir.Ganga (Mar 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Leave them alone and you get 4 ft plants in 8 weeks from seed. Sorry BB but you lucky bucket cola aint going to cut it against this beauty. And BJ, um I mean PJ maybe its time you actually grow something other than a hard on for Clay Akin....


I don't mean to be an ass but what the hell is that! Your proud of this poor thing? By letting your main get that far away from the rest, you essentially have cut your own throat. Proper topping and pruning would have made for an even canopy. What you have there is one nice bud and a bunch of fluffly popcorn myfriend. You really need to stop listening to these idiots on here and start believing in yourself and experiment a little.

I know you think Im full of it....but man, really....you can do much better than that, if thats how you grow you can easily double your harvest with a bit of technique.

Your growing it like it was outdoors...Hmmm I wonder where you got that info?



chuck estevez said:


> Dude, You try so hard to have a following like UB, but your ideas are all assbackwards.
> I have never seen someone so green with envy.


I could care less about followers, you trolls and wannabees have to be brought out and exposed for what you are. Proof is in the pics my friend. I have yet to see any of you"experts" produce a picture that shows a huge bounty. A good example is supertramps pic! He has lost over half his weight, why...because he follows without question and recieved really bad info.

You choose this:





Or this:






Untouched and natural or manipulated and topped.

There is no choice...Really these two pics tell the whole story.

Chucky your the follower and sadly you made a bad choice on who to follow.

Enough proof for me...I'm OUT!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 5, 2013)

Yep I choose mine. And I hate to break this too you but that canopy you say is even. Well its as crooked as your thought process on growing. And what is this "popcorn" you rookies speak of? I have never experienced it myself. Please share how you guys all seem to know how to grow it...


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 5, 2013)

That is a sad comparison to my fat dense bithes you will not get half of what I got per plant thanks for playing, game over your done.
How can there be any popcorn there isn't any leaf or density to block anything you should have defoliated a few times then you might have something thick and heavy like mine.
I can't wait to see that cola on a bucket it will be the size of a 55 gallon drum from a hotwheels set LMAO.

PS. that is about the size of what I have left reflowering so they might be done near the same time but sorry you will still come up short again better luck next time.

The picture in my avatar is about the same stage 3-4 weeks flower you can't see any stalks or anything past the top few of inches, defoliation makes more branches and leaf with density you won't believe and note how full and even the canopy is and I still got bucket sized colas plus many other giant tops.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Winner winner chicken dinner.........


Love the movie (21), watched it a bunch of times. Love that line!

Nice plant.......


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> I don't mean to be an ass but what the hell is that! Your proud of this poor thing? By letting your main get that far away from the rest, you essentially have cut your own throat. Proper topping and pruning would have made for an even canopy. What you have there is one nice bud and a bunch of fluffly popcorn myfriend. You really need to stop listening to these idiots on here and start believing in yourself and experiment a little.
> 
> I know you think Im full of it....but man, really....you can do much better than that, if thats how you grow you can easily double your harvest with a bit of technique.
> 
> ...


Who are you to be instructing anyone how to grow plants? That was nothing more than a diatribe of insults and what's really funny, from another RIU shit-fer-brains marijuana nerd.

And to try to compare a plant which has different genetics under completely different gardening conditions than yours, 2 weeks into flowering with one ready to harvest, is just plain disengenious.

Now......shut the fuck up. It's his garden. He can do damn well what he wants with it.

Here's a large bushy plant, solid bud from top to bottom, grown using with no foolish gimmicks, tricks, topping, or defoliating..... grown using plain old cheap Walmart off the shelf foods in an organic potting soil I threw together from scratch.



Uncle Ben


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## Sir.Ganga (Mar 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Yep I choose mine. And I hate to break this too you but that canopy you say is even. Well its as crooked as your thought process on growing. And what is this "popcorn" you rookies speak of? I have never experienced it myself. Please share how you guys all seem to know how to grow it...


Your serious??? Even canopy means ALL branching, not just tops. Even my girl needed more work to be even. You could have doubled your output with one top, but you have been brainwashed.

COME ON MAN...A 6-7 zip plant versus a 17 zip plant and you choose yours?

Honestly bud, i feel sorry for you because your girl looks healthy and with a little bit of knowledge you could do much better.


Producing plants that size in an indoor grow is not worth the time or effort. If that is how you grow then maybe outdoors you should be. Outdoor grower throw and go ending up with what you have there, nothing.

Sorry you can't wrap your head around it, but really your just using a lot of energy for what? That spindly weak ass plant! I see a 3:1 ratio when comparing our plants, you see it too but can't admit your thought process is skewed from other members.



Uncle popcorn...you are the reason he can't get shit off a plant. Genetics my ass, my plants would look exactly like that without manipulation. Proper pruning and topping will increase yeild on every strain. Yes they are different stages but there isn't enough structure on his lant to support the number I speak of.

Someone need to put you over their knee and straighten you out.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Honestly bud, i feel sorry for you because your girl looks healthy and with a little bit of knowledge you could do much better.


What, knowledge from you? Apparently you're not gonna take my advice, to shut up before looking like a fool. OK, time to school another one.....



> Producing plants that size in an indoor grow is not worth the time or effort.


Wrong. I've always grown my brand of SOB (sea-of-bush). Why? Because it allows me low maintenance (I refuse to become a slave to my plants, I've got better things to do with my time), while having the advantage of excellent production. I'm not about to screw around with 20 small plants when I can get the same output from 4-6. 



> If that is how you grow then maybe outdoors you should be. Outdoor grower throw and go ending up with what you have there, nothing.


Keep posting that arrogant bullshit and confirm being a fool. 



> Sorry you can't wrap your head around it, but really your just using a lot of energy for what? That spindly weak ass plant! I see a 3:1 ratio when comparing our plants, you see it too *but can't admit your thought process is skewed* from other members


Speaking of wrapping their heads around something....yours must be wrapped around a big turd. You are some disengenious buffoon to be comparing the two.

Keep up the petty insults and see where it gets you - a Texas sized whopping from the Uncle.

UB


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## chuck estevez (Mar 5, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Your serious??? Even canopy means ALL branching, not just tops. Even my girl needed more work to be even. You could have doubled your output with one top, but you have been brainwashed.
> 
> COME ON MAN...A 6-7 zip plant versus a 17 zip plant and you choose yours?
> 
> ...


absolutely delusional. I guarantee you aren't going to pull that kind of weight off of every strain simply by defoliating. You Obviously grow some potent stuff because your fuckin stoned dude.


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## Apomixis (Mar 5, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Your serious??? Even canopy means ALL branching, not just tops. Even my girl needed more work to be even. You could have doubled your output with one top, but you have been brainwashed.
> 
> COME ON MAN...A 6-7 zip plant versus a 17 zip plant and you choose yours?
> 
> ...




LMFAO You Fukkin punks! What the fuck does GENETICS have to do with ANYTHING?! ROTFLMAO!
What's even better is how he inadvertently uses the classic Mendelian ratio...3:1. Can anyone say: IRONIC!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> I guarantee you aren't going to pull that kind of weight off of every strain simply by defoliating.


I know, the delusional twins want some Pollyana nerd to believe their gardens' outcome is ONLY due to their acts of defoliating, a practice that no botanist would condone, an act that a bunch of dupes can't agree on in terms of amount, timing, etc. It's fuckin' hilarious! 

It's like saying organic vitamins are more effective than synthetic, or RO water is better than rainwater......!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

Change gears....how do some of you guys get a full page photo to show rather than a thumbnail? I've tried "everything".


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## chuck estevez (Mar 5, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Change gears....how do some of you guys get a full page photo to show rather than a thumbnail? I've tried "everything".


 I use photobucket.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 5, 2013)

Use the edit funtion to change you post and double click the thumbnail and and change size box will pop up. Choose your size and placement then save.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 5, 2013)

SOB indeed...nice








Booger said it best, "we have bush"...


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 5, 2013)

Do you people think the first person that told people to cut the tops off their plants didn't get laughed at like the guy who said breaks your stems the suppercropping debate is just getting started on here just like this thread people demanding proof side by sides do your own you won't know untill you do.


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 5, 2013)

Ben I open a second window to my pictues open the pic then drag it to your other window your posting from. You can do the same thing from existing posts.


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## Apomixis (Mar 5, 2013)

Awwww... See? We are all still friendly at the computer level.. Nice. 
Genetics still make the difference, but its nice to see people helping people.


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## akula (Mar 5, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Do you people think the first person that told people to cut the tops off their plants didn't get laughed at like the guy who said breaks your stems the suppercropping debate is just getting started on here just like this thread people demanding proof side by sides do your own you won't know untill you do.


The difference is there is actual science and logical reasoning behind those practices. How a plant redistributes its auxoims causing a positive result. Here we have, at best, remove leaves to let light shine on lower bud sites. There is really no debate there. There is no plant mechanism that we can point to here.


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## Apomixis (Mar 5, 2013)

akula said:


> The difference is there is actual science and logical reasoning behind those practices. How a plant redistributes its auxoims causing a positive result. Here we have, at best, remove leaves to let light shine on lower bud sites. There is really no debate there. There is no plant mechanism that we can point to here.


The debate _should_ end here.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

Peace! (one sativa cola of 4 main colas)



BB, here's one of those outdoor rootballs in which I sunk the 5 gal. pot into a 3" deep hole. That's what you call an efficient fibrous rootball, which grew into native soil thru the drainholes. Easy peasy......


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 5, 2013)

Show me the studies or side by side's my side by side still after weeks of being topped they aren't nearly as big as the defoliated or natural not much more branch lenght either considering they are the only points of growth.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Use the edit funtion to change you post and double click the thumbnail and and change size box will pop up. Choose your size and placement then save.


Still can't get it and tried different ways including using different browsers. For starts, no image shows up during the EDIT function, only script. Even this didn't work, still gave me a thumbnail. (Changed it so the thumbnail doesn't reload again, just the script.







Oh well.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Leave them alone and you get 4 ft plants in 8 weeks from seed. Sorry BB but you lucky bucket cola aint going to cut it against this beauty. And BJ, um I mean PJ maybe its time you actually grow something other than a hard on for Clay Akin....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do those kind of comments somehow make you feel better about yourself? What a sad existence.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 5, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Still can't get it and tried different ways including using different browsers. For starts, no image shows up during the EDIT function, only script. Even this didn't work, still gave me a thumbnail. (Changed it so the thumbnail doesn't reload again, just the script.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Easy peasy.. Here you do, don't say I never did anything for you.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 5, 2013)




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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


>


Thanks. I still can't figure it out.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 5, 2013)

Looks like a nice bud, looks like the plant was pushed over at some point. And the buds started growing up towards the light.

Beyond that, I think, that you can take leaf off if your far enough into flowering, and you have the right strain.

I don't think you will get much better yield, you prolly will have trouble matching it actually.

Taking all the leaf off, was an old outdoor growers trick supposedly. That if you took all the outer leaf off, the plant would survive lower temps better, during the end of flowering.

I don't see much use for the practice over all...


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 6, 2013)

In the quick reply screen I upload the image. Then placed cursor over the small pic and double tapped my touchpad(laptop so no mouse) and an edit box will appear. I select the center box for placement and the large box for size and post. I am using Google Chrome if they makes any difference.


Same strain as the 4 foot plant. Grown under same light and circumstances. Quite a bit shorter huh? Genetics have more too do with growing then most give it credit. And you certainly cannot over ride genetics by raping your plant like of few would love for you too believe.


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## cannawizard (Mar 6, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> In the quick reply screen I upload the image. Then placed cursor over the small pic and double tapped my touchpad(laptop so no mouse) and an edit box will appear. I select the center box for placement and the large box for size and post. I am using Google Chrome if they makes any difference.
> 
> 
> Same strain as the 4 foot plant. Grown under same light and circumstances. Quite a bit shorter huh? Genetics have more too do with growing then most give it credit. And you certainly cannot tamper with genetics by raping your plant like of few would love for you too believe.
> ...


What strain is that in picture? Sorry if that was already answered, too lazy to scroll up, haha


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 6, 2013)

Agent Orange....and I think you would have searched in vain! My bad I forgot to mention it earlier.


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## Figong (Mar 6, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Agent Orange....and I think you would have searched in vain! My bad I forgot to mention it earlier.


Sub's TGA genetics behind that beast? Nice


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 6, 2013)

Thanks and TGA beans they are.


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## cannawizard (Mar 6, 2013)

Nice, I heard good stuff about Agent Orange, how does she smoke?


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 6, 2013)

Thanks. Not sure how it smokes. Its my first time growing it but its been on my bucket list for some time. I will let you know sometime in May!


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## Figong (Mar 6, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> -snip-You should maybe take an english class. "Proper pruning and topping will increase yeild on every strain" Is there any weight reference? No.


Unless your yield is anti-gravity, then the weight is implied by the statement of increased yield.. isn't it?


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## SeeRockCity (Mar 6, 2013)

When my first plant actually flowered...I got 'newb-itis' and ripped off a ton of fan leaves....
dumb move...slowed down flowering a LOT.

havent ripped off any fan leaves off any other plants since.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> Looks like a nice bud, looks like the plant was pushed over at some point. And the buds started growing up towards the light.


Effect of phototropism and gravitropism (to get technical). In spite of me staking and tieing up the colas with plant tape, the weight of the buds laid colas prostrate to the ground. The thin sativa like "trunks" just couldn't carry the weight on their own. Check out these views starting from Aug. 1 to Aug. 29. Quite a bit of bulking up in 29 days, eh. 3rd photo shows the cola on the left almost upside down!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2013)

SeeRockCity said:


> I got 'newb-itis' and ripped off a ton of fan leaves....
> dumb move...slowed down flowering a LOT.


Hmmmmm......I wonder why?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 6, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> In the quick reply screen I upload the image. Then placed cursor over the small pic


That's the problem, the image doesn't show, only a script. Maybe Chrome is different. 

Nice plant!


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## SeeRockCity (Mar 6, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hmmmmm......I wonder why?


impatience


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## potroastV2 (Mar 6, 2013)

SeeRockCity said:


> impatience



There are pills for that now. They will keep you hard long time.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 6, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's the problem, the image doesn't show, only a script. Maybe Chrome is different.
> 
> Nice plant!



Hey bro, here's another way to do it.. Go ahead and upload the attachments and then preview post. In preview post mode, click on your attachment and the pic should pop up to it's own window full sized. Then right click that full sized image and select open in new tab or open in new window. You can also see it there's a copy url option. Anyway if you open in a new window or a new tab then you can copy the url from that new tab. Then simply enclose the url inside of the img command:


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 6, 2013)

rollitup said:


> There are pills for that now. They will keep you hard long time.


Hopefully not more than 5 hours, or they say you should see a doctor. I'm hoping it's a lady doctor..


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## greenyield (Mar 7, 2013)

looks like you have hundreds of answers here.

i personaly trim the fan leaves off through the flowering period so that i get better air circulation through the canopy and to allow the light to penetrate to the buds that are lower down, i keep smaller fan leaves that dont get into the way of other plants bud.

you wouldnt grow a plant under an umberella.....

the fan leaves will produce the energy for photosynthesis but when you are growin sog and there are what seems like hundreds of fan leaves creating a canopy of shade to the lower buds then you have to make a decision- 1) do i want to remove the leaves and have my lower buds fatten up through the exposure to light- 2) do i want to keep the fan leaves and have under-developed immature bud under the canopy that is a real pain to manicure and usually ends up in the compost bin.

ive grown with a 1000w sog style with trimming and without trimming- the trimmed plants were easier to manicure and gave a slight increase in finished dried weight but the buds were all nice too, the un-trimmed plants were a real pain to manicure on the popcorn under the canopy and the popcorn was leafy and squishy but i kept most of it and the yield was still as good as the trimmed plants- i think there was a 1.5oz difference in favour of the trimmed plants but the bag appeal of the trimmed plants was much nicer.

it all boils down to where abouts in the grow you want to spend your time putting the work in, 1- trimming fans through flower period or 2- more time spent harvesting the under developed leafy bud.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 7, 2013)

http://12most.com/2012/03/12/advanced-agricultural-technologies/


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

Xpress....


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 7, 2013)

Look at that. The 'Old Dog' learned a new trick. I want me some sticky rice.......


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

I was having problems with the picture expansion software also.

I found sometimes it wouldn't work in quick post mode, I had to go to full mode to make it work. And that seems a little touchy sometimes also.

When you look at this picture on it's side =>

 
You can see what I mean about the plant leaning one way or the other. And how the buds respond, that's what my outdoor buds do. But they do it because I intentionally push them over.

Like the stem for example it's laying right on the ground, rather then upright like you normally see.


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## Apomixis (Mar 7, 2013)

Someone explain to me how buds fatten up due to exposure to light? 
Are the buds making leaves or the other way around?


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

The previous pictures are of 2 different large outdoor females that I pushed over. Most people do the exact opposite, they trelice and stick, and support any way they can. And that's mostly because when any part of the budding site touches the ground, especially when there is any moisture present. The bud degrades or shwags out, when this happens. Also the other main factor is, they break in the wind, and or get pushed over unintentionally....


Both of these pics are of the same plant. this one was one of the most sativa. when I pushed this one over. It was about 6 feet tall, and just starting to shoot hairs. It was straight up and down, no branching, and had not been pruned.

But you can see the multi headed beast it turned into. Basicaly all the nodes producing heads equal to the main cola.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 7, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Someone explain to me how buds fatten up due to exposure to light?
> Are the buds making leaves or the other way around?


Here in 'Bazzaro World' it seems its the buds is where photosynthesis occurs. Those of us in the real world know otherwise...


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Someone explain to me how buds fatten up due to exposure to light?
> Are the buds making leaves or the other way around?



Buds are more or less leaf, with trichomes stuck on. What you are actually doing is growing a crop trichomes. So buds fatten up by putting on veg material. Which in turn is sort of the growing medium for trichomes. Remember oil is heavy, so it's weight you want to put on not just size.


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## cannawizard (Mar 7, 2013)

So cannabis floral structures (buds) also do the same photosynthesis work as leaves do? So if I stripped every leaf on a cannabis plant, it can still accumulate the needed energy thru the floral sites?


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> So cannabis floral structures (buds) also do the same photosynthesis work as leaves do? So if I stripped every leaf on a cannabis plant, it can still accumulate the needed energy thru the floral sites?


Uhh.. by all means, please - let us know how that works out... hahaha - that said, why debate this when you can train the fan leaves and cause long shoots so they keep getting the required light without blocking other parts of the plant you want more exposed to the light? The best of both worlds. (But, I'm sure someone will say that the fan leaves use more energy than they produce.. so am ready for a new twist to the debate)


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

It's more like battery power. The more leaf you have, the more stored energy you can tap into. But the plant can still run on direct current so to speak. If the leaf is mostly removed, and the plant is mature enough to handle it.


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> It's more like battery power. The more leaf you have, the more stored energy you can tap into. But the plant can still run on direct current so to speak. If the leaf is mostly removed, and the plant is mature enough to handle it.


Wow, you're half insane.. am not sure how to approach this one.. so will try it blunt force trauma. Will start with.. you remind me of bmeat. That said - leaves + tons of trichomes = less spectrum available statistically .. leaves with less trichomes = more spectrum statistically. Trichomes are a leaf natural defense system against UVB, which depending on the bulb you have can make a hell of a difference.. and is why a few tend to switch from HPS to MH for the last week. Piling on the trichs last minute is a great way to ensure solid light coverage up to the end, and still not lose out on the added benefit.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

But hey, the bottom line is this. Some plants will be more receptive to certain techniques then others. And what works for you, works for you, simple as that.

I saw a thread on here where a guy is starting from seed with no veg time, and is getting solid 2 to 3 foot colas that look like they came off a giant outdoor plant.

Now I'd say that was impossible, every plant I've tried that with, produces little or nothing with no veg time. From what I've found plants usually double their size from their vegatative point. So, no veg, no yield, pretty simple right?

But it's a huge long thread, and people seem to be popping all over in it, getting similar results.

Now are they all lying? I don't know, I'd think they were, but hey maybe not right? Who knows for sure?


----------



## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

Figong said:


> Wow, you're half insane.. am not sure how to approach this one.. so will try it blunt force trauma. Will start with.. you remind me of bmeat. That said - leaves + tons of trichomes = less spectrum available statistically .. leaves with less trichomes = more spectrum statistically. Trichomes are a leaf natural defense system against UVB, which depending on the bulb you have can make a hell of a difference.. and is why a few tend to switch from HPS to MH for the last week. Piling on the trichs last minute is a great way to ensure solid light coverage up to the end, and still not lose out on the added benefit.


First off, don't be rude to people, it won't get you anywhere. I'm not nuts or whacko anymore then you are...

We've run production clones 24/7 365 days a year, for a long time at the Wonder gardens.

And YOU are growing trichomes, not leaf right? You don't smoke leaf do you?


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> But hey, the bottom line is this. Some plants will be more receptive to certain techniques then others. And what works for you, works for you, simple as that.


Nothing in the cannabis group is more receptive when chopping off its energy source, shocking it(see: stressing), and stunting the growth



Vincent VonBlown said:


> I saw a thread on here where a guy is starting from seed with no veg time, and is getting solid 2 to 3 foot colas that look like they came off a giant outdoor plant.


Yes, we call that very nice veg lighting, it's just a matter of implementing it as affordable



Vincent VonBlown said:


> Now I'd say that was impossible, every plant I've tried that with, produces little or nothing with no veg time. From what I've found plants usually double their size from their vegatative point. So, no veg, no yield, pretty simple right?


Have you seen some of the 12/12 from seed grows? They directly contradict your statement.



Vincent VonBlown said:


> But it's a huge long thread, and people seem to be popping all over in it, getting similar results.
> 
> Now are they all lying? I don't know, I'd think they were, but hey maybe not right? Who knows for sure?


Yes, it is a long thread.. 'similar results' is up for debate, and no.. they're not lying - the difference lies in the skilled hand, and grow conditions.. without those 2 things, nothing else you can do will make much else of a difference. (short of having a 3rd party do the growing for you)


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## mrCRC420 (Mar 7, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> -- On Defoliation -- I have wasted plenty of time trying to get the ignorant to understand another training method but Ignorance is bliss enjoy your plants one day you may have the balls to try something new and get some actual experience and results good luck to you all Bud Brewer out.


I try whatever technique(s) I feel that each plant wants; LST, super-cropping, fimming, topping, all natural. I haven't tried defoliation but I didn't say it's BAD, I just don't do it b/c no plant has asked for it. I guess I'll conclude by saying that this post was created to start a debate - and just because most people don't practice what you practice, and want to keep it that way, does not justify you acting like a teenager (unless you are a teenager).


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

I assumed me trying to dumb down the information, would still lead (as usual) to some people being confused

But you ARE growing trichomes AKA oil. You don't smoke veg matter if you don't have to, that counts for nothing.


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## cannawizard (Mar 7, 2013)

Actually I've seen some long time growers of (serious seeds - ak47) being able to pull huge single colas from that method (12/12 from the very start).. I haven't done it myself, but I have seen several results that indicate that its plausible~

Not here to argue, but I can't wrap myself around how cannabis floral sites (which is pretty much comprised of sepals) --just what I've read..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepal
Are able to provide the needed energy to power the plant into creating more buds (sepals).. 
Wouldn't that just make it hard for the plant to rely on the floral sites to create more floral sites?


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> Actually I've seen some long time growers of (serious seeds - ak47) being able to pull huge single colas from that method (12/12 from the very start).. I haven't done it myself, but I have seen several results that indicate that its plausible~
> 
> Not here to argue, but I can't wrap myself around how cannabis floral sites (which is pretty much comprised of sepals) --just what I've read..
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepal
> ...


Yup, and that's why choppin' leaves is not the brightest of ideas in any fashion, and re-training them is a hell of a lot better - imho, anyway.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

In your opinion.

There you go, you don't know it all do you?

lol


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## Vincent VonBlown (Mar 7, 2013)

And that's pretty simple! Like I said more then once. What works for you, works for you.

People that want to insult you, or force their opinoin. Are seldom those that get the respect they desire.

This thread is silly, your not going to come out much better one way or the other on this leaf removel deal.

Standing here arguing about it is a waste of time...

So, I'm off to do better things


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## cannawizard (Mar 7, 2013)

@Vincent --I'm just here taking notes, which strains were you working with? I'd like to see which strains people used with defol techniques, so I know which strains to use in later defol tests


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> In your opinion.
> 
> There you go, you don't know it all do you?
> 
> lol


Nope, never once claimed to know it all.. not sure where that was derived from.


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> And that's pretty simple! Like I said more then once. What works for you, works for you.
> 
> People that want to insult you, or force their opinoin. Are seldom those that get the respect they desire.
> 
> ...


This.. I will agree with.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Someone explain to me how buds fatten up due to exposure to light?
> Are the buds making leaves or the other way around?


I was about to respond to a previous post about "buds need the light" when you took the words right out of my mouth. For some strange reason, many folks think that the flowers need light to develop. You especially see this train of thought amongst newbies. It's become a paradigm, like flushing. Never have quite understood it other than it fits the old internet cliche' - "if someone says it and it's repeated on the internet, then it must be true."

UB


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## nick88 (Mar 7, 2013)

It's not the buds per say that need the light, but the small leaves coming out of the buds that need the light. I've had plenty of lower buds that were blocked from light, be a real light pale green. And within a cpl days of uncovering and exposing to the light turn the same color green as the rest of the buds.
As for flushing, I agree 100%, if people didn't use 5 million different nutrients they wouldn't have to worry about flushing.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> The previous pictures are of 2 different large outdoor females that I pushed over. Most people do the exact opposite, they trelice and stick, and support any way they can. And that's mostly because when any part of the budding site touches the ground, especially when there is any moisture present. The bud degrades or shwags out, when this happens. Also the other main factor is, they break in the wind, and or get pushed over unintentionally....


That is some mighty heavy clay you've got there. Doesn't look like the plant minds though. Curious, did they ever set good colas or did you cut them down when temps reached 40F, before they were ready?

They say "opinions are like assholes, everyone has them" which brings me to what I would do with those plants - top and/or use a PGR like Bonzi to control their height, if that's an issue. When you lay them over like that you're butchering the roots a bit, tearing the hell outta the root hairs. I would think the corn field would provide plenty of wind protection....guess not? I did both with the O. Haze and they finished out around 7' tall. If I hadn't topped AND applied Bonzi, no telling how tall they would have been.

Tio


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

nick88 said:


> I've had plenty of lower buds that were blocked from light, be a real light pale green. And within a cpl days of uncovering and exposing to the light turn the same color green as the rest of the buds.


Don't confuse a CO2 assimilation flag with bud leaves being a good food source. They are yellow because they're not productive. The plant knows when to discard them as being unproductive based on a carbon flag.

Back to bud leaves, you always hear from a babe's mouth "buds need light". Not that they ever understand it's relative to total leaf surface area, fan leaves being the most efficient photon collectors. A cola will produce a ton of fan leaves. I used to grow orchids and I focused on producing the most foliage going into the blooming cycle I could. That's what it's all about. Of course if you don't retain those leaves up until harvest it's all a moot point. 



> As for flushing, I agree 100%, if people didn't use 5 million different nutrients they wouldn't have to worry about flushing.


Even if they did use too much salts, flushing doesn't do anything. A plant doesn't have a radiator where you can open a tap and flush it. You think potassium nitrate is still potassium nitrate after the plant consumes it? It's not, it's quickly broken down into ions and combined with H and CO2 etc. to make carbos, proteins (amino acids), enyzmes, ho moans, (hydrocarbons)..... 

UB


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## Apomixis (Mar 7, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> In your opinion.
> 
> There you go, you don't know it all do you?
> 
> lol


But it is _simple morphological fact_ that leaves produce photosynthate and flowers produce seed.
Saying flowers produce any sizable amount of energy is like saying we piss through our skin when we sweat. Yeah, it's basically true, but you're reeeeeeaaally stretching it there.
Green fruits produce some energy too, but you wont see a producer of grapes, apple, etc plucking leaves so the fruit can get light (at least for any other purpose than to make the fruits look more colorful, but even then they don't do it).

Vince, I will give you this: veg time does build up starches in the woody areas of the plant, and the plant can convert these back into usable sugars when it needs to: when animals or people or wind pluck the leaves off of the plant. 

Now you can argue that the way we cultivate weed is more or less for one great push to bust out big flowers, and so it doesn't matter how you do it, if its good or bad for the plant... The results are your reasoning. 
But the physiological truth is this: you are forcing a plant to tap into secondary metabolic pathways. These are not things a plant likes doing. They are much less efficient, and therefore undesirable. Any other production seeks to keep stressors from occurring, they certainly don't promote their occurrence.

Done. Lol. And with a smile!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> ....Standing here arguing about it is a waste of time...
> 
> So, I'm off to do better things


Don't tell me! You're off to defoliate your faves?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> 1. But it is _simple morphological fact_ that leaves produce photosynthate and flowers produce seed.
> Saying flowers produce any sizable amount of energy is like saying we piss through our skin when we sweat. Yeah, it's basically true, but you're reeeeeeaaally stretching it there.
> 
> 2. Green fruits produce some energy too, but you wont see a producer of grapes, apple, etc plucking leaves so the fruit can get light (at least for any other purpose than to make the fruits look more colorful, but even then they don't do it).
> ...


Kudos, that was one damn good post! Every one of your (noted) points is botanically correct, FWIW.

Respect,
Tio Bendejo


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Kudos, that was one damn good post!


Agreed, was right to the point - not over-inflated or sugarcoated and really can't be argued on any level. Well played


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## nick88 (Mar 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't confuse a CO2 assimilation flag with bud leaves being a good food source. They are yellow because they're not productive. The plant knows when to discard them as being unproductive based on a carbon flag.
> 
> Back to bud leaves, you always hear from a babe's mouth "buds need light". Not that they ever understand it's relative to total leaf surface area, fan leaves being the most efficient photon collectors. A cola will produce a ton of fan leaves. I used to grow orchids and I focused on producing the most foliage going into the blooming cycle I could. That's what it's all about. Of course if you don't retain those leaves up until harvest it's all a moot point.
> 
> ...


 What does co2 have to do with light getting to the bud site? Wouldn't that be more air circulation related? I tell you what take and block the direct light from a bud and watch it turn pale green after cpl days, then unblock and watch it turn back like the rest.


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## Apomixis (Mar 7, 2013)

Wwwwwatatatatatatatatatatataaaaaaaaaahh!!!!


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 7, 2013)

Buds don't develop well or at all with little light I showed plenty of pics of small undeveloped bud higher in the canopy than large developed bud getting direct light.

Bud Is made of leaf not fruit these aren't apples or whatever tree you want to compare to you still leave plenty of leaves on in flower this is more of a veg technique for me to get fat bushes without slowing them down like topping but I still get my bucket sized colas.


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## resinousflowers (Mar 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Don't confuse a CO2 assimilation flag with bud leaves being a good food source. They are yellow because they're not productive. The plant knows when to discard them as being unproductive based on a carbon flag.
> 
> Back to bud leaves, you always hear from a babe's mouth "buds need light". Not that they ever understand it's relative to total leaf surface area, fan leaves being the most efficient photon collectors. A cola will produce a ton of fan leaves. I used to grow orchids and I focused on producing the most foliage going into the blooming cycle I could. That's what it's all about. Of course if you don't retain those leaves up until harvest it's all a moot point.
> 
> ...


you keep on believing flusing doesnt do anything,,,,i'll keep on disagreeing,because whenever i give my plants a good flush the end product is always better,everytime.


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

resinousflowers said:


> you keep on believing flusing doesnt do anything,,,,i'll keep on disagreeing,because whenever i give my plants a good flush the end product is always better,everytime.


I'm split on this, as I can really only see 2 legitimate reasons why a flush may be required... use of systemic/multiple systemics on the plant(s) that may greatly affect the taste at chop/dry/cure time, and signs of severe nute lockout as a method of helping troubleshoot. (This in no way means I am implying that you should flush at the slightest bit of a light nute burn, in any fashion - mileage will vary definitely in this aspect.)


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## skunkd0c (Mar 7, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Buds don't develop well or at all with little light I showed plenty of pics of small undeveloped bud higher in the canopy than large developed bud getting direct light.
> 
> Bud Is made of leaf not fruit these aren't apples or whatever tree you want to compare to you still leave plenty of leaves on in flower this is more of a veg technique for me to get fat bushes without slowing them down like topping but I still get my bucket sized colas.


Each branch will compete for light they will shade each other they do not have the ability to organize themselves in the best possible shape so we need to help them out a little
if a branch can be given good light they tend to become colas

each branch / cola is full of leaves that will photosynthesize for the buds
it is better to have an even spread of light across the canopy with good penetration down each branch 

this is how a single plant can produce 20 or more colas. something like a screen of green without the screen

selectively removing blocking leaves at the top of the canopy helps to encourage lower shoots and branches to rise up and become colas
if this shaded growth is left shaded it becomes lighter green in colour and produces a lower yield

the idea that a plant should only produce 1 main cola is ignorant, every branch should be a cola that should be the goal to produce an optimum yield and quality in a given space, while keeping the plant numbers low 

peace


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## SeeRockCity (Mar 7, 2013)

greenyield said:


> looks like you have hundreds of answers here.
> 
> i personaly trim the fan leaves off through the flowering period so that i get better air circulation through the canopy and to allow the light to penetrate to the buds that are lower down, i keep smaller fan leaves that dont get into the way of other plants bud.
> 
> ...



I dont know about that man... there are a LOT of people that dont touch the leaves one bit and shade the lower buds...that get as big as my arm.... 
It's not an umbrella....it's that plants natural way of converting energy... if you take them off...production slows...

I have done it both ways....and I'm finding better results with not touching the fans... maybe it's a strain thing.. I'm too young in the grow world to say definitively... but I can tell you that the plants that I trimmed all the fan leaves off took foooorrrrreever to finish flowering... 12+ weeks.. vs about 8-9 weeks with the fans.... that right there is evidence enough for me....


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## Apomixis (Mar 7, 2013)

SeeRockCity said:


> I dont know about that man... there are a LOT of people that dont touch the leaves one bit and shade the lower buds...that get as big as my arm....
> It's not an umbrella....it's that plants natural way of converting energy... if you take them off...production slows...
> 
> I have done it both ways....and I'm finding better results with not touching the fans... maybe it's a strain thing.. I'm too young in the grow world to say definitively... but I can tell you that the plants that I trimmed all the fan leaves off took foooorrrrreever to finish flowering... 12+ weeks.. vs about 8-9 weeks with the fans.... that right there is evidence enough for me....


And there you have it. I haven't grown weed in massive amounts but I don't need to. If you understand the physiology of the typical flowering plant, you can predict how most plants will act. What RockCity just said is exactly what can be expected.


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> And there you have it. I haven't grown weed in massive amounts but I don't need to. If you understand the physiology of the typical flowering plant, you can predict how most plants will act. What RockCity just said is exactly what can be expected.


Yup, I agree completely with both of you - without question


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## SeeRockCity (Mar 7, 2013)

yaaay, I actually learned something and put it into practice!!


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

SeeRockCity said:


> yaaay, I actually learned something and put it into practice!!


Yup, and you got +rep for it too


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## SeeRockCity (Mar 7, 2013)

thanks! much appreciated...


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

resinousflowers said:


> whenever i give my plants a good flush the end product is always better,everytime.


OK, so, what's the science behind your feelings?


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## chuck estevez (Mar 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> OK, so, what's the science behind your feelings?


 It's easy UB, you pump your plant full of p and k, pluck all the leaves off, then flush with plain water to recover from the stress. I actually agree with it if your gonna grow all retarded and shit,lol


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Buds don't develop well or at all with little light


Ya think? Then how in the hell did these lower chunky buds get there? These plants were totally "shaded" having been crammed into a limited space with its sistas. Nice an natural too with all original fan leaves left intact. Easy peasy.......

Look through the plant in the first & second photos. There's little to no light penetrating that canopy. Most of those fan leaves are as big as dinner plates. Lots of carbos kickin' in. 

























BB, you're just flat ass wrong and misguided when comes to certain established tenets of horticulture. Me thinks it's time you grew an apple tree or a grape vine, watched as the flowers inside the shaded canopy of a pecan tree turn into fine edible nuts, dtich the pruning shears and step away from your keyboard fer a while and peered into a Plant Culture 101 book. 

Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> It's easy UB, you pump your plant full of p and k, pluck all the leaves off, then flush with plain water to recover from the stress. I actually agree with it if your gonna grow all retarded and shit,lol


Ya got that right! I like the way Jorge put it best - "it's just plain weird" lol.


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ya think? Then how in the hell did these lower chunky buds get there? These plants were totally "shaded" having been crammed into a limited space with its sistas. Nice an natural too with all original fan leaves left intact. Easy peasy.......
> 
> Look through the plant in the first photo. There's little to no light penetrating that canopy.
> 
> ...


Awesome work with the ladies!


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## Bud Brewer (Mar 7, 2013)

Those aren't shaded much or at all I mean dark shade like in my avatar a few inches in that is shade no light gets past and minimal bud density.

I guess you don' t grow big indoors because we are totally on different levels of shade mine completely blocked out a 1000 watt a month before that pic.

I had no choice but defoliate half just after that pic was taken because defoliating in veg grows more leaves later growing them big bucket colas.

Stop comparing these flowers of bud made of leaves to a fruit no comparing at all.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 7, 2013)

More sticky rice porn. Love it!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 7, 2013)

If plants could only talk...


[video=youtube;8XWijwmvGU4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XWijwmvGU4[/video]


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## SeeRockCity (Mar 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ya think? Then how in the hell did these lower chunky buds get there? These plants were totally "shaded" having been crammed into a limited space with its sistas. Nice an natural too with all original fan leaves left intact. Easy peasy.......
> 
> Look through the plant in the first & second photos. There's little to no light penetrating that canopy. Most of those fan leaves are as big as dinner plates. Lots of carbos kickin' in.
> 
> ...



those are terrific ! more evidence supporting LEAVING THE FAN LEAVES ALONE!!! 
When we think we know better than nature..we get things like GMO foods and corn fed meats (aka CRAP)


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 7, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> Those aren't shaded much or at all I mean dark shade like in my avatar a few inches in that is shade no light gets past and minimal bud density.


You win. Keep hanging a sign on that pig and call it a dog.


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## Fruitbat (Mar 7, 2013)

It's simple; if you are on the space station would you cut off solar panels in an attempt to generate more "energy"? Fuck no. Then why would you do it to your plants?

Defoliating is absolute horseshit and makes no sense.


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## Figong (Mar 7, 2013)

Fruitbat said:


> It's simple; if you are on the space station would you cut off solar panels in an attempt to generate more "energy"? Fuck no. Then why would you do it to your plants?


Only if the solar panels were blocking the light that was needed for the cannabis plants



Fruitbat said:


> Defoliating is absolute horseshit and makes no sense.


Agreed, completely.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 8, 2013)

Figong said:


> Only if the solar panels were blocking the light that was needed for the cannabis plants


My buds jest luvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv being under their solar panels.  Mah purty apples do too.


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## donmagicjuan (Mar 8, 2013)

If u have shady leaves add light to them
master of the obvious signing out


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## The2TimEr (Mar 8, 2013)

Keep em green! 
the results will not be matched otherwise


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## cannawizard (Mar 8, 2013)

The2TimEr said:


> Keep em green!
> the results will not be matched otherwise


Looks like it snowed on those buds, nice ganja porn


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## medical/420 (Mar 8, 2013)

LET's all arguee with no facts. The only argueement i wanna hear is one from experiace..

If you never took leaves off your plant that were blocking bud sites, you shouldn't be saying it anit going to work. intill you try it don't knock it. 

anybody that has taken leafs off a plant probally has grown a plant with out takeing any leaves off before, so they can give there results.

I have never grown a plant in a aeroponic system, so I will not say that Aeroponic is BAD, because i have never done it, so i can't judge it.....


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## Fruitbat (Mar 8, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> LET's all arguee with no facts. The only argueement i wanna hear is one from experiace..
> 
> If you never took leaves off your plant that were blocking bud sites, you shouldn't be saying it anit going to work. intill you try it don't knock it.
> 
> ...


Hey, you should not water your plants ever. Don't knock it until you try it. 

Not really sure what a "agueement", "experiace", "anit" or "intill" means but I'll be sure to look it up. 

Eh, I give up...enjoy your defoliation.


----------



## medical/420 (Mar 8, 2013)

Fruitbat said:


> Hey, you should not water your plants ever. Don't knock it until you try it.


I have had plants dry out, so I know they need water, i also know they need co2 and Light. 
and they dont like 0 degree nights or 120 degree days. just like i know that fan leafs can block light from getting to BUDs on a plant. 

Because i have tryed it.... and seen the results from it. go read your grow bible or something


----------



## Doobius1 (Mar 8, 2013)

I think it was a lame attempt at humour. Go read Sense of Humour for Dummies


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 8, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> LET's all arguee with no facts. The only argueement i wanna hear is one from experiace..
> 
> If you never took leaves off your plant that were blocking bud sites, you shouldn't be saying it anit going to work. intill you try it don't knock it.
> 
> ...


The facts have been presented time and time again, its called botany, facts against the practice. 
The claims that it works have not been proven. Only personal observations on a very limited scale. And the reasons used claiming it works go against the laws of nature and horticulture. Fools yourselves if you so wish. But to claim increased yields over proven practices is just plain spreading bad info, down right bullshit.


On a side note: I have been growing MJ among many other plants longer than many in this debate have been alive. Been there, done that on many different levels. What you want to see and whats actually happening can be two very different things. From my many years of experience the way to maximize yields is to grow happy, healthy plants from start too finish. 
Yes there are situations that call for topping or training to get the most from your plants and grow space. Nothing wrong with that. Bottom line is though a plant left to do its things will out produce manipulated plants every time if you have the space to let them be free.......


----------



## Nullis (Mar 8, 2013)

medical/420 said:


> LET's all arguee with no facts. The only argueement i wanna hear is one from experiace..
> 
> If you never took leaves off your plant that were blocking bud sites, you shouldn't be saying it anit going to work. intill you try it don't knock it.
> 
> ...


This is still a nonsensical argument. First of all, the leaves are not BLOCKING the bud sites, this is an illusion and you're probably exaggerating it.

Also: confirmation bias.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 8, 2013)

[video=youtube;4gO7uemm6Yo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gO7uemm6Yo[/video]







It is just an annual ya know.....


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Mar 8, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ya think? Then how in the hell did these lower chunky buds get there? These plants were totally "shaded" having been crammed into a limited space with its sistas. Nice an natural too with all original fan leaves left intact. Easy peasy.......
> 
> Look through the plant in the first & second photos. There's little to no light penetrating that canopy. Most of those fan leaves are as big as dinner plates. Lots of carbos kickin' in.
> 
> ...


Is that what you see? What you are actually looking at are flowers that are under developed. If you take a close look at the structure you can see that though looking nice they lack weight, have a closer look and you will see they have no girth to speak of and have elongated in the search for light. Prolly because of all the foilage in the way, ya know all that yellow stuff?

Im sorry man...I thought you knew the difference.

Some day you will figure it out.


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 8, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Is that what you see? What you are actually looking at are flowers that are under developed. If you take a close look at the structure you can see that though looking nice they lack weight, have a closer look and you will see they have no girth to speak of and have elongated in the search for light. Prolly because of all the foilage in the way, ya know all that yellow stuff?
> 
> Im sorry man...I thought you knew the difference.
> 
> Some day you will figure it out.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 8, 2013)

[video=youtube;-qTrbDQO5qM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qTrbDQO5qM[/video]


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 8, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> The facts have been presented time and time again, its called botany, facts against the practice.
> The claims that it works have not been proven. Only personal observations on a very limited scale. And the reasons used claiming it works go against the laws of nature and horticulture. Fools yourselves if you so wish. But to claim increased yields over proven practices is just plain spreading bad info, down right bullshit.
> 
> 
> ...


[video=youtube;eB5EE42So7I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5EE42So7I[/video]


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 8, 2013)

Pre-mature harvest must be up next...and yes I think highly of my grow skills...


----------



## potroastV2 (Mar 8, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Is that what you see? What you are actually looking at are flowers that are under developed. If you take a close look at the structure you can see that though looking nice they lack weight, have a closer look and you will see they have no girth to speak of and have elongated in the search for light. Prolly because of all the foilage in the way, ya know all that yellow stuff?
> 
> Im sorry man...I thought you knew the difference.
> 
> Some day you will figure it out.




Heehee! Thank you, Man! I needed a belly laugh when I got home.

Yeah, Ben, maybe in your 2nd 40 years of growing you will know as much as this kid.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 8, 2013)

rollitup said:


> Heehee! Thank you, Man! I needed a belly laugh when I got home.
> 
> Yeah, Ben, maybe in your 2nd 40 years of growing you will know as much as this kid.


ra ra ra...

[video=youtube;KbOz9nFOItY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KbOz9nFOItY[/video]


----------



## Slab (Mar 8, 2013)

Hey Guys!

loving some of the knowledge dropping.

got a question about cloning a peach tree, can you and if so; this tree has been barren for 3 seasons. 

what do you guys say?


also about plant over lapping each other, can this cause shade avoidance responses.

maybe in a good way, 


what i think the retards are failing to grasp is light is not one directional, it scatters and blase l;eaves from all sides.

one more, i just recalled. can i get a layman def. of Photon flux. please? thanks


----------



## Bud Brewer (Mar 9, 2013)

rollitup said:


> Heehee! Thank you, Man! I needed a belly laugh when I got home.
> 
> Yeah, Ben, maybe in your 2nd 40 years of growing you will know as much as this kid.




He just might learn something instead of growing the same way for forty years stuck in the past everything he knows I new 20 years ago and am willing to learn not cling to a 40 year old book like it is a bible. 

Maybe he could even learn what heavy shade is if he could grow large plants indoors he might have a clue because the light is getting into those plants with the six small fan leaves so be happy growing average plants


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 9, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> He just might learn something instead of growing the same way for forty years stuck in the past everything he knows I new 20 years ago and am willing to learn not cling to a 40 year old book like it is a bible.
> 
> Maybe he could even learn what heavy shade is if he could grow large plants indoors he might have a clue because the light is getting into those plants with the six small fan leaves so be happy growing average plants


Then why the fuck dont you show us something other than that dead fucking bucket horse you have been beating to death? Cause you cant. Cause repeatable results are not within your grasp. 20 years of experience and all you have to show for it is that one good grow...bravo little buddy...training wheels almost ready to be taken off...


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 9, 2013)

That's like telling the a/c tech with 30 years experience to go back to school. I thought experience was something that made you the authority on that subject. I guess the newb who just graduated is gonna come in and try and tell him how to do stuff. It just doesn't make sense in my book.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Mar 9, 2013)

I grew big plants for more than twelve years indoor constantly then after more than 6 years of not growing I can pull off 5 gallon bucket colas that were just a fraction of the total weight of the 3 feet around 4.5 high solid fat plants with dozens of big tops per plant making a huge wall of hanging bud.

As far as repeating it that will not be a problem my monster plants were still big after I took all the massive tops off to expose the hundreds of small immature bud that was shaded totally by huge buds and had more leaf than anything you you clowns have posted despite me removing half the leaf at 3 weeks none of your natural plants can compare to the recent examples of defoliated plants or come close to mine.

The big 3 foot bushes left have plenty of new growth they will be huge not as big as the first run but close and the test clones are growing good they are well over a foot and a half and looking good imagine what my garden will look like after with five fat monsters instead of two. 

I could almost double my total although that would be pushing everything to the extreme max, but I will have a much better second run fine tuning little things.


----------



## Bud Brewer (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm a tradesman with 24 years experience and have worked with hundreds of people experience doesn't mean the best some who have been doing it for forty years are still limited in what they can do and are not always good just good enough to keep around but not your go to guy when you need something difficult done that takes someone with more natural and learned skill by doing things outside their comfort zone and constantly learning new things can give a much younger tradesman a more varied and extensive experience that can produce much better work.


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 9, 2013)

you got answers for everything. Your so focused on how BIG you can grow a bud. Just grow hydro if your only after bigger. . But I would rather have a nice nug that gets me stoned, then a big airy bud that you can post pics of on the interwebz. Sorry god gave you a small pee pee and you feel the need to fill your inadequacies here.


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 9, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> *I'm a tradesman with 24 years experience* and have worked with hundreds of people experience doesn't mean the best some who have been doing it for forty years are still limited in what they can do and are not always good just good enough to keep around but not your go to guy when you need something difficult done that takes someone with more natural and learned skill by doing things outside their comfort zone and constantly learning new things can give a much younger tradesman a more varied and extensive experience that can produce much better work.


 and I would bet the house, you would tell some rookie just out of school, to kick rocks if he tried to tell you how to do your job. Your a bigger idiot than anyone could guess if you deny that.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Is that what you see? What you are actually looking at are flowers that are under developed.


They're at least 3 weeks prior to harvest pinhead.



> Im sorry man...I thought you knew the difference.


Right. And this shows that you don't even understand when it's time to harvest nor can gauge plant maturity.



> Some day you will figure it out.


Pot calling kettle black comes to mind. I'll clue you in. Harvest when about 80% of the pistils are brown with 20% still fresh, calyx production (and pistil production) has about come to a halt, and calyxes are plump as if they contain a seed. I don't use resin head color as a guide.

Gotta it?

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

Slab said:


> got a question about cloning a peach tree, can you and if so; this tree has been barren for 3 seasons.


I'd say you have a dead tree. 

Yes, may be able to root a peach branch cutting, not sure why you'd want to do that. You pick the scion variety that has been grafted onto a rootstock that works for your soil profile. Give me your local chill hours and I can recommend some of the best.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> That's like telling the a/c tech with 30 years experience to go back to school. I thought experience was something that made you the authority on that subject. I guess the newb who just graduated is gonna come in and try and tell him how to do stuff. It just doesn't make sense in my book.


No shit! I do what I do based on experience. This guy has no clue mainly because he's so young. Not that he's old enough to have grown many gardens (using cheesey CFL lights and jerry rigged crap suggests a lack of experience). I may be giving away my age, but I've been gardening on my own since 1970, and with my parents and relatives prior to that.

UB


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Mar 9, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> That's like telling the a/c tech with 30 years experience to go back to school. I thought experience was something that made you the authority on that subject. I guess the newb who just graduated is gonna come in and try and tell him how to do stuff. It just doesn't make sense in my book.


Exactly! If a tech walked into my jobsite and boasted 30yrs experience but did not take any refresher courses in that 30 yrs, he would be kicked to the curb, without updating their knowledge base they aren't licensed for long and end up the Xpert at Home Depot! What about doctors? They never take refreshers? Come on Chuck....You can do better than that.



rollitup said:


> Heehee! Thank you, Man! I needed a belly laugh when I got home.
> 
> Yeah, Ben, maybe in your 2nd 40 years of growing you will know as much as this kid.


40 years! WOW i'm impressed! 40 years of growing what? An EGO maybe...Looks to me you wasted 40yrs.

Look people I have shown you pics of bumber crop after bumper crop, I have explained my process and shown my results. My methods have been implimented over the last 20yrs with results that have doubled my yeild over the years. I have yet to see any results of any of these three trolls, why? They put up pictures of low producing plants, spindly colas and try to sell it as "I grow better than you". I don't play that game, I know better, why...because I update my knowledge base and am open to trying new ideas.

We all grow differently and there isn't nothing wrong with that but when you bully someone, cut them down or make crude statemments about their abilities or grow, it just shows that you have no ability to pleed your case.

_*Supertramp*_...Some of your pics looks very healthy, you really should try a couple of these techniques. A simple topping of your plants will double your output and give you an even canopy

Its not something that happens overnight but trying one little thing like topping the main can and does make a huge difference.

*Chucky*...Wher are your numbers and pics? You said to me that I'm jealous and want followers, that statement alone shows why you come on hear. Show us what you think is a beauty looks like, if you can.

_*Uncle Popcorn.*_...40 year knowledge base and you haven't learnt to increase yeild. They now offer horticulture classes all over, you should enroll and update your old ways because you refuse to listen to reason and do nothing but shit down people's throats on here and say its not a place to learn. An edicate class would be a good thing also.

You guys want to use outdoor techniques, go ahead but don't try to compare results because as seen in your pics your missing half your crops and don't even realize it. I guess its better than knowing how much you are actually missing.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

Bud Brewer said:


> I'm a tradesman with 24 years experience and have worked with hundreds of people experience doesn't mean the best some who have been doing it for forty years are still limited in what they can do and are not always good just good enough to keep around but not your go to guy when you need something difficult done that takes someone with more natural and learned skill by doing things outside their comfort zone and constantly learning new things can give a much younger tradesman a more varied and extensive experience that can produce much better work.


Don't tell me.....you're an English teacher?

Perhaps I can make your chest beatings a little more palatable to consume for the general public - 

_"I'm a tradesman with 24 years experience and have worked with hundreds of people. Experience doesn't mean the best..... some who have been doing it for forty years are still limited in what they can do and are not always good, just good enough to keep around but not your go to guy. When you need something difficult done that takes someone with *more natural* and learned skill by doing things outside their comfort zone and constantly learning new things can give a much younger tradesman a more varied and extensive experience that can produce much better work."
_
Ah....just love those catchy buzzwords. And just how "natural" are they?


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 9, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Exactly! If a tech walked into my jobsite and boasted 30yrs experience but did not take any refresher courses in that 30 yrs, he would be kicked to the curb, without updating their knowledge base they aren't licensed for long and end up the Xpert at Home Depot! What about doctors? They never take refreshers? Come on Chuck....You can do better than that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you don't think people *much *smarter than you have tested your theories to death? If it worked like you say, it would be in every growing book. You didn't reinvent the wheel.

I know growers who can grow Huge buds, But Take one hit and it tastes like shit and give's me a headache. I'm more about good genetics and keeping my plant healthy and stress free. while growing as close to mother natures way as possible. I would rather smoke a joint of my weed with you, than show you 
some "my dick is bigger than yours Pic"


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Exactly! If a tech walked into my jobsite and boasted 30yrs experience but did not take any refresher courses in that 30 yrs, he would be kicked to the curb, without updating their knowledge base they aren't licensed for long and end up the Xpert at Home Depot! What about doctors? They never take refreshers? Come on Chuck....You can do better than that.


Hey shit-fer-brains, I practically have a pHD in horticulture having attended TX A&M workshops, both class room and in the field, a couple of times a year. I'm not some dork that spends his time in lamebrain stoner cannabis forums that are wraught with bullshit.....where the blind lead the blind carrying on their misgiven paradigms such as flushing. As a certified Master Gardener and holding a Pesticide Applicator's License, I must meet certain credits annually which can only be done by attending AGGIE (university) sponsored workshops that offer college continuing education credits. Now, that's just part of it. I learn by doing hands-on field training such as vineyard canopy management and most of all, networking with professionals, not socializing with arrogant snot nose kids who just learned to tie their shoes.

Also, you have no right insulting other's methods nor do you have a lock on yields per some smoke-n-mirrors website shot. I mean, who in the fuck do you think you are? Only 500 posts? To me, you're just another chest beating arrogant fool using stuff like Voodoo Juice and falling for noobie derived theories.

Sheesh....so many fuckin' dorks in this place! 

Uncle Ben


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

Did some checking on this guy. This says it all about who and what this poser is. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/592949-led-light-ratios-whats-best.html

Well....that went over like a lead balloon, hah!


----------



## Figong (Mar 9, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Did some checking on this guy. This says it all about who and what this poser is. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/592949-led-light-ratios-whats-best.html
> 
> Well....that went over like a lead balloon, hah!


Was curious about the knowing it's 32:3 red/blue, but having to plug it in before it was figured out that it's for flowering.. that confused me.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Look people I have shown you pics of bumber crop after bumper crop, I have explained my process and shown my results. My methods have been implimented over the last 20yrs with results that have doubled my yeild over the years.


Right. You just joined 3 months ago, post a photo of a marginally grown plant that has a date stamp a little over a year old?



> I have yet to see any results of any of these three trolls, why? They put up pictures of low producing plants, spindly colas and try to sell it as "I grow better than you". I don't play that game,.....


Bullshit. You're liar and poser that has just been exposed. Care to tell us what happened here? Those are spindly colas if I ever saw one. 







FAIL

Keep it up junior. I likes giving mis-behaving kids a well deserved whuppin'. 

UB


----------



## Sincerely420 (Mar 9, 2013)

! And the raging continues hahahaha.
I'm just waiting in the stroke lol!

#helloandpeaceworld


----------



## NietzscheKeen (Mar 9, 2013)

I hope when I post photos of my first grow, people will offer constructive criticism and not give me shit for having awful plants, lol.


----------



## Figong (Mar 9, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> I hope when I post photos of my first grow, people will offer constructive criticism and not give me shit for having awful plants, lol.


You'll get constructive criticism unless/until you tell a few of the members that they can't grow when they show pics of some of the best crops RIU has seen pic-wise.. at the point you attack others, you will open up pandoras box and unleash a massive shitstorm.


----------



## Doer (Mar 9, 2013)

Figong said:


> Bud Brewer.. question for you. What happens when the plants are in need of dire sugars they simply can't keep up with or attain due to having fan leaves chopped off? (I'm ready for a legitimate debate without personal attacks, if you're up for it - will end this once and for all.)


That's another point. I was reading up on folier feeding techniques, etc and found this has been studied. The roots take only the elemental ions. They can't absorb complex hydrocarbons.

To the thread title, to me it's like asking if I remove a panel in in my umbrella with I still get as much rain?

The fan leaves provide shade that the plant put there to use. They are also the factories of all the good stuff for the plant. And they spread where the plant wanted them spread, for the light it sees. When the plant is done with the fan leaves they let go and move on.

The only thing in this argument that makes any sense, is air circulation. But, I have little fans on the floor blowing up into the canopies.


----------



## Doer (Mar 9, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> I hope when I post photos of my first grow, people will offer constructive criticism and not give me shit for having awful plants, lol.


Oh. You are bigger than that. See my journal for some real screw ups. I'm in upgrade again to try to solve some issue. I've seen guys post very proud, some pretty bad looking stuff. And we can look at it and make suggestions. Like, "that LED doesn't seem to be putting out much good light."


But, compared to the guy that grows nothing?

OTH, if we have a thin skin for the rare and occasional idiots, maybe think twice about opening your kimono?


----------



## Slab (Mar 9, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd say you have a dead tree.
> 
> Yes, may be able to root a peach branch cutting, not sure why you'd want to do that. You pick the scion variety that has been grafted onto a rootstock that works for your soil profile. Give me your local chill hours and I can recommend some of the best.
> 
> UB


Pardon my ignorance, my frost zone is 6 b, southwest PA.

Not sure if that is the same thing.

Would that tomato variety you have been mentioning do well up this way?


thank you for your help Uncle Ben!


----------



## zack66 (Mar 9, 2013)

I like my plants like I like my women, with a little meat on their bones. I still have 5-6 weeks to go on these ladies. No leaf chopping here.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 9, 2013)

Slab said:


> Pardon my ignorance, my frost zone is 6 b, southwest PA.
> 
> Not sure if that is the same thing.
> 
> ...


It's been bred for heat but most times those hybrids bred for hot conditions have the gene that sets fruit during really cold temps. Try it.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Mar 9, 2013)

I harvested this beast a few days ago... I've been showing it off all over RIU. I didn't do anything special... genetics are responsible for this beast. Honestly, I roughed this plant up pretty good. It saw some rough days during flower. Flowers are not all that dense. This plant is sort of novelty... It makes a great picture though.


----------



## potroastV2 (Mar 9, 2013)

Y'know, for just a couple of more dollars, you could have had a really good vintage.


----------



## smellzlikeskunkyum (Mar 9, 2013)

im pretty sure we all agree its not good to cut any healthy fan leaves under normal circumstances. right? the latest high times had a Q someone asked about this. danny danko basically said the same as well. or whoever it was really.

ive experiemented a bit and it seems to me its only beneficial in veg when u dont have good light because a fan leaf is blocking a top. like if u lollipop and bring your bottoms up, some of those nodes where the stems where taken out, those leaves wont be missed much by the plant usually.

but i agree, leave the leaves as much as possible. they are the engine of the plant really.


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 10, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I harvested this beast a few days ago... I've been showing it off all over RIU. I didn't do anything special... genetics are responsible for this beast. Honestly, I roughed this plant up pretty good. It saw some rough days during flower.* Flowers are not all that dense.* This plant is sort of novelty... It makes a great picture though.
> View attachment 2561743


 But you could have got bigger if you pulled the leaves off,maybe the size of a 5 gal bucket.lol, How much light do you think that wine bottle took up?


----------



## Sir.Ganga (Mar 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Hey shit-fer-brains, I practically have a pHD in horticulture having attended TX A&M workshops, both class room and in the field, a couple of times a year. I'm not some dork that spends his time in lamebrain stoner cannabis forums that are wraught with bullshit.....where the blind lead the blind carrying on their misgiven paradigms such as flushing. As a certified Master Gardener and holding a Pesticide Applicator's License, I must meet certain credits annually which can only be done by attending AGGIE (university) sponsored workshops that offer college continuing education credits. Now, that's just part of it. I learn by doing hands-on field training such as vineyard canopy management and most of all, networking with professionals, not socializing with arrogant snot nose kids who just learned to tie their shoes.
> 
> Also, you have no right insulting other's methods nor do you have a lock on yields per some smoke-n-mirrors website shot. I mean, who in the fuck do you think you are? Only 500 posts? To me, you're just another chest beating arrogant fool using stuff like Voodoo Juice and falling for noobie derived theories.
> 
> ...


See there folks...when push comes to shove what does he do...pats himself on the back for being the MAN spouting insults as fast as he can. 

_*PLEASE TAKE NOTICE OF THIS MEMBER FOR WHAT HE IS*_.



Uncle Ben said:


> Did some checking on this guy. This says it all about who and what this poser is. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/592949-led-light-ratios-whats-best.html
> 
> Well....that went over like a lead balloon, hah!


Its called research....You need to do some also!



chuck estevez said:


> you don't think people *much *smarter than you have tested your theories to death? If it worked like you say, it would be in every growing book. You didn't reinvent the wheel.
> 
> I know growers who can grow Huge buds, But Take one hit and it tastes like shit and give's me a headache. I'm more about good genetics and keeping my plant healthy and stress free. while growing as close to mother natures way as possible. I would rather smoke a joint of my weed with you, than show you
> some "my dick is bigger than yours Pic"


Being smart is one thing using your smarts is another. I have forgotten more than you know...10 years ago!

I knew a girl once...Had a friend that...I saw it done at...Sorry no pics....no opinion. Your a JOKE.


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 10, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> See there folks...when push comes to shove what does he do...pats himself on the back for being the MAN spouting insults as fast as he can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 says the guy who does EVERYTHING assbackwards. The only joke around here is you and I'm ALWAYS laughing at you.

*

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE OF THIS MEMBER FOR WHAT HE IS.​




*


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2013)

rollitup said:


> y'know, for just a couple of more dollars, you could have had a really good vintage.


Mogen David? 

....or for a few bucks and a bit of hard work, you could have made some of Uncle Ben's famous Texas Red (the wine that is).


----------



## chuck estevez (Mar 10, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> See there folks...when push comes to shove what does he do...*pats himself on the back for being the MAN spouting insults as fast as he can. *
> 
> _*PLEASE TAKE NOTICE OF THIS MEMBER FOR WHAT HE IS*_.
> 
> ...


 UMMM, can you say HYPOCRITE??? bwahahaha!!!

10 years ago I was banging your mommy while you played video games. and I found a pick of UB for ya


----------



## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> See there folks...when push comes to shove what does he do...pats himself on the back for being the MAN spouting insults as fast as he can.
> 
> _*PLEASE TAKE NOTICE OF THIS MEMBER FOR WHAT HE IS*_.


I'm spouting insults? Look you little arrogant jackass, you're the one that started all this with more than one member. Now, if you can't take the heat, get your happy ass out of the kitchen.

Yeah, I did some research. Having looked into your short, quickly abandoned threads, I'd say you're much more of a blow hard, carpenter and electrician than you are a grower. You must have a lot of time on your hands and money to burn to be putting such make-work attention into all this - https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/537392-rockwool-medical-gro-14-lights.html

How much did you spend on all that crap? 

Uncle Ben


----------



## azoo (Mar 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Mogen David?
> 
> ....or for a few bucks and a bit of hard work, you could have made some of Uncle Ben's famous Texas Red (the wine that is).


niceeeeeee hahah


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's been bred for heat but most times those hybrids bred for hot conditions have the gene that sets fruit during really cold temps. Try it.


Will you relay the name of the tomato again please.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> UMMM, can you say HYPOCRITE??? bwahahaha!!!
> 
> 10 years ago I was banging your mommy while you played video games. and I found a pick of UB for ya


Hah, guy kinda looks like me! Funny stuff!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2013)

Slab said:


> Will you relay the name of the tomato again please.


My 3 favorite big reds (10-12 oz) are, in order of preference - BHN 602 aka "Rodeo", Big Beef, Celebrity. Heat Wave and Sunmaster are excellent cold and hot weather large tomatoes (IOW set blossoms under less than ideal day/night temps), if you can find them. Years ago I read where they were no longer gonna breed them so I stocked up on the seed. Favorite grape is Juliet. Favorite cherry is Sweet Million or Sweet 100. Am still picking luscious greenhouse maters and giving them away "by the ton". These greenhouse maters not only look picture perfect, they actually taste great. Our favorite quick salad side is a plate of sliced avocados and sliced homegrown tomatoes seasoned with S/P and drizzled with Italian salad dressing. Even better is this one. Rich and excellent. Look for this one in your grocer. A little pricey but a little goes a long way! http://www.maries.com/product-detail.aspx?productID=17

Happy gardening,
Tio


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## Apomixis (Mar 10, 2013)

rollitup said:


> Y'know, for just a couple of more dollars, you could have had a really good vintage.


lol oh yeah?


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> My 3 favorite big reds (10-12 oz) are, in order of preference - BHN 602 aka "Rodeo", Big Beef, Celebrity. Heat Wave and Sunmaster are excellent cold and hot weather large tomatoes (IOW set blossoms under less than ideal day/night temps), if you can find them. Years ago I read where they were no longer gonna breed them so I stocked up on the seed. Favorite grape is Juliet. Favorite cherry is Sweet Million or Sweet 100. Am still picking luscious greenhouse maters and giving them away "by the ton". These greenhouse maters not only look picture perfect, they actually taste great. Our favorite quick salad side is a plate of sliced avocados and sliced homegrown tomatoes seasoned with S/P and drizzled with Italian salad dressing. Even better is this one. Rich and excellent. Look for this one in your grocer. A little pricey but a little goes a long way! http://www.maries.com/product-detail.aspx?productID=17
> 
> Happy gardening,
> Tio


I couldn't stop thinking of the bird flu strain HN something or other. ok got it.

I only have room for half a dozen in the ground, I will try the rodeo and the big beef. 

is Burpee a good source for those? do you have a preferred vendor?


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 10, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Mogen David?
> 
> ....or for a few bucks and a bit of hard work, you could have made some of Uncle Ben's famous Texas Red (the wine that is).



UBs 'Sticky Rice and Red Wine'...now thats song title waiting for a tune!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 10, 2013)

Has the Abe Lincoln mater been mentioned yet? Wonderful performer under just about any condition. Medium to large sized fruit that slices and cans equally well. A friend turned me onto it a few years back and now its a favorite.


http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2008-04-01/Abraham-Lincoln-Heirloom-Tomatoes.aspx


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2013)

thanks for the reading material A.Supertramps , i must buy a farm before I buy the farm.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 10, 2013)

Slab said:


> thanks for the reading material A.Supertramps , i must buy a farm before I buy the farm.


Never too early to start your collection of seeds. And remember if you can grow it in the ground you can grow it in a pot!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 10, 2013)

Slab said:


> I couldn't stop thinking of the bird flu strain HN something or other. ok got it.
> 
> I only have room for half a dozen in the ground, I will try the rodeo and the big beef.
> 
> is Burpee a good source for those? do you have a preferred vendor?


Local nursery stocks the Rodeo. I bought Big Beef seeds, they're up and sun bathing in the greenhouse.  Also, I'd go with the recommendations of your local ag extension service. Near you there is an excellent supplier that I can highly recommend. It's where I got my specially Dutch bred greenhouse tomatoes - Trust and Arbason. They're catalog is like reading The Bible....it's huge with really hard to find items. http://www.johnnyseeds.com/


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## potroastV2 (Mar 10, 2013)

rollitup said:


> Y'know, for just a couple of more dollars, you could have had a really good vintage.





Apomixis said:


> lol oh yeah?



Actually, it's especially funny that you should reply, because my quote is from Bill Murray in an SNL skit.


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## Apomixis (Mar 10, 2013)

rollitup said:


> Actually, it's especially funny that you should reply, because my quote is from Bill Murray in an SNL skit.


You don't say!


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## akula (Mar 10, 2013)

chuck estevez said:


> UMMM, can you say HYPOCRITE??? bwahahaha!!!
> 
> 10 years ago I was banging your mommy while you played video games. and I found a pick of UB for ya


Do you honestly think he is going to recognize how hypocritical he is at this point in the game? Ignorance has its perks for those that are forever unable to see their own....well ignorance. He did "gift" you a joke however. I don't know how one possesses a joke. You're a fine man for somehow keeping "your a joke".


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 11, 2013)

Its pretty apparent they are trying to convince themselves(SirGaga and Bud Brew)that this practice actually works the way they claim. None of which claims have been backed up. Most of us are not buying it as this thread have most certainly taken a pro 'energy producer' stand. They thought they would be heros. But instead they have been exposed as zeros. And now they are scrambling to try and save face. Impossible task at this point. Move on and lick your wounds little fellers.......


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 11, 2013)

Check it out in case you missed this new thread:
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/632476-my-defoliated-vs-non-defoliated.html#post8801299


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 11, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Local nursery stocks the Rodeo. I bought Big Beef seeds, they're up and sun bathing in the greenhouse.  Also, I'd go with the recommendations of your local ag extension service. Near you there is an excellent supplier that I can highly recommend. It's where I got my specially Dutch bred greenhouse tomatoes - Trust and Arbason. They're catalog is like reading The Bible....it's huge with really hard to find items. http://www.johnnyseeds.com/


Eden Brothers is another great source for seeds...sign up for their emailing list cause they do a lot of promotional sales....

http://www.edenbrothers.com/


And I guess while I am sharing links might as well share this one. Best wetting agent I have found too date. We even use it on the farm in certain situations.

http://www.arbico-organics.com/product/ThermX-70-quart/1402403

And they are a great source for predatory insects to control pests in your garden.


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## Nullis (Mar 14, 2013)

These kind of people who are full of shit but really want to come off like they have their shit together, as if thru their own personal experimentation they figured everything out including the things which defy logic. They never last very long here, they often get bored or banned.

Anyone remember Japanfreak? There were others but he was one of the ones, AFAIR, who was going on about similar bullshit like a year ago on here. You wonder if some of them are the same people with different user names.


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## Kite High (Mar 14, 2013)

Nullis said:


> These kind of people who are full of shit but really want to come off like they have their shit together, as if thru their own personal experimentation they figured everything out including the things which defy logic. They never last very long here, they often get bored or banned.
> 
> Anyone remember Japanfreak? There were others but he was one of the ones, AFAIR, who was going on about similar bullshit like a year ago on here. You wonder if some of them are the same people with different user names.


japanfreak had me so angry I think I woulda shot them...cant remember but it may have even been a chick


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## Figong (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm just thankful that no clowns have proposed cutting off new shoots just to keep the plant small yet.. hahahaha


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## HeartlandHank (Mar 14, 2013)

^What? You didn't see that thread? No, not really...

There was some tomato talk...
I just started some tycoon, celebrity, big beef, early girl, yellow pear... a couple grape and cherry varieties... a roma.. something else, i forget.
I think we are past having nights below 50F... I think it should be alright. Maybe a tad early.
Also picked up some purple tomatillos. I was wanting green but they were not at the nursery, I didn't feel like driving around. I love tomatillos. Tomatillo, jalapeno, garlic, lime juice... a couple spurts with the immersion blender. 2 minute fresh verde salsa. The same recipe works for a chips and salsa thing, tex mex, pasta sauce, over chicken/pork/beef. It's good warm, but the more you cook it the less desirable the flavor gets, imo. I never waste or need to gift the tomatillos. The fresh flavor is very sweet. You can go heavy or light on the garlic or peppers, but getting the perfect lime juice/tomatillo ratio is key. Without lime juice the sweetness is a little much.
They are super easy to grow. Big plants even in a small container. In a spacious raised bed they get enormous, very quickly. I'm curious to see how the purple compare to the green.

They are kind like Jalapenos though... I spend more growing them than I would at the store. When I was in a another region, getting quality tomatillo was impossible, so i grew them.


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## Apomixis (Mar 14, 2013)

Blight problems? I have to spray the shit out of my tomatoes every year I've been at my current house. I am pretty much fed up with tomatoes and their weaknesses... I like the Brassicas. Easy to grow. Nothing significant fucks with them. 
Now if someone can breed a decent tasting Brassica...


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## HeartlandHank (Mar 14, 2013)

Apomixis said:


> Blight problems? I have to spray the shit out of my tomatoes every year I've been at my current house. I am pretty much fed up with tomatoes and their weaknesses... I like the Brassicas. Easy to grow. Nothing significant fucks with them.
> Now if someone can breed a decent tasting Brassica...


Blossom end rot got me for a long time when growing in containers.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 15, 2013)

BHN 602 aka "Rodeo" is about as disease while being super delicious as any of them. Big Beef is also. Love tomatillos. Get them cheap at our grocer. Those green tomatillo based sauces are very common in Texas.

I've picked "a ton" of container tomatoes this winter. Non had blossom end rot which I've heard is either caused by water inconsistency and/or Ca deficiency. Well water is loaded with Ca.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 15, 2013)

Since this has become a tomato thread, here's a nice pic of what they're growing in the greenhouses at the college I work for.


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## Fruitbat (Mar 15, 2013)

My favorites are Black Krims. Love 'em!


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 16, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Since this has become a tomato thread, here's a nice pic of what they're growing in the greenhouses at the college I work for.


Tell 'em Uncle Ben recommends they stop the lollipop drills. They should be on a plate of spaghetti sauce, not in a salad.

UB


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Tell 'em Uncle Ben recommends they stop the lollipop drills. They should be on a plate of spaghetti sauce, not in a salad.
> 
> UB


I'm thinking that an award winning college horticulture department might know a little more than Uncle Ben, believe it or not. I know it's hard for you to understand.


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## PJ Diaz (Mar 17, 2013)

Yummy yum yum


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 17, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Yummy yum yum


Now that's better, BUT, if it was my maters, I'd strip almost all of those leaves off. They're just getting in the way and creating air circulation problems. Right?

UB


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## zack66 (Mar 20, 2013)

My purple kush likes her leaves left on. A little over 5 weeks since switch to 12/12. I have 6 going altogether here's 3 and 3. All suckers left on till they die off. I try and keep them green and non butchered. Works for me!


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## Figong (Mar 21, 2013)

cochroach said:


> WTF CHUCK???
> PLEASE DON'T TELL ON ME!!
> fine I'll be your friend. Send another request.
> Here is the rep you wanted, now please don't tell.


Never knew you were an altar boy, good to know for future religious punchlines.


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## cannawizard (Mar 22, 2013)

You guys are putting Rolli's delete function on overdrive , let's try to keep this thread alive since its the only "defol" thread left open under the AMC forum

And why is everyone posting tomato pics?? did I miss a memo~


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## keebo3000 (Mar 22, 2013)

im extremely pleased with the outcome of my defoliation experiment.... although it took 2 more weeks for them to finish, i got ALOT more buds, and they are much more dense, than previous grows and that was even AFTER i had been sniping, drying and tasting last two weeks


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 22, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> You guys are putting Rolli's delete function on overdrive , let's try to keep this thread alive since its the only "defol" thread left open under the AMC forum
> 
> And why is everyone posting tomato pics?? did I miss a memo~



But why is this in the Advanced section when its clearly a misinformed noob method? It belongs in the noob section........


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 22, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> im extremely pleased with the outcome of my defoliation experiment.... although it took 2 more weeks for them to finish, i got ALOT more buds, and they are much more dense, than previous grows and that was even AFTER i had been sniping, drying and tasting last two weeks [video=youtube_share;oecFdyBRjBI]http://youtu.be/oecFdyBRjBI[/video]


That video made me laugh your ass off. Doubled your yield huh. What from one ounce too two?


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## keebo3000 (Mar 22, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> That video made me laugh your ass off. Doubled your yield huh. What from one ounce too two?



ummm.....excuse me?  two ounces huh? might want to get those glasses checked .. oh im sorry.. it's everyone's favorite troller alex... forget i said anything. continue bashing.


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## cannawizard (Mar 22, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> But why is this in the Advanced section when its clearly a misinformed noob method? It belongs in the noob section........


I'm just here to sweep the floors 

Can't control the topics being generated by the members~


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> I'm just here to sweep the floors
> 
> Can't control the topics being generated by the members~


As a mod, you don't have the authority to move threads?


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## cannawizard (Mar 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> As a mod, you don't have the authority to move threads?


Actually I can move threads... The only time I do use that function is when the topic is clearly in the wrong forum... So if the majority deems this topic (out-of-place) and suggest an appropriate forum for it --I' am more than happy to oblige that request~


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> Actually I can move threads... The only time I do use that function is when the topic is clearly in the wrong forum... So if the majority deems this topic (out-of-place) and suggest an appropriate forum for it --I' am more than happy to oblige that request~


This suggests you're all about trying to be everyone's friend and into political correctness. Half the threads in "Advanced" don't belong here including this one. I'll help ya out canna.....this thread belongs in the Noobie section or General MJ Growing forum. This thread belongs in Nutrient subforum - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/458021-how-calculate-npk-ratio.html

Give me mod powers, I'll clean up this dysfunctional garbage.


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## cannawizard (Mar 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> This suggests you're all about trying to be everyone's friend and into political correctness. Half the threads in "Advanced" don't belong here including this one. I'll help ya out canna.....this thread belongs in the Noobie section or General MJ Growing forum. This thread belongs in Nutrient subforum - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/458021-how-calculate-npk-ratio.html
> 
> Give me mod powers, I'll clean up this dysfunctional garbage.


Gotta admit, at least your saying it straight up with no BS~ And yes, I'm more about the whole (PC) thing.. kiss-ass


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 22, 2013)

The reason I feel it does not belong in the Advanced section is because it has no bases or actual substance. But being in the advanced section it could possibly lead unsuspecting growers into doing it. Gee its in the advanced section so it must work kinda thing. Its for noobs looking for a flashy grow style to match their flashy nutes.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 22, 2013)

keebo3000 said:


> ummm.....excuse me? View attachment 2580876 two ounces huh? might want to get those glasses checked View attachment 2580877.. oh im sorry.. it's everyone's favorite troller alex... forget i said anything. continue bashing.


Get rid of all that bare stem from the incredible stretch you caused your plants and give it a weigh.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 22, 2013)

Only thing plucked here was the first node. From sprouting to 2 weeks under T-5 then HPS for 3 weeks more of veg before the flip to 12/12. 


Different plant same grow. Left to right: 3rd node, 5th node, 7th node, 6nd node, 4th node, 2nd node. Ya UB may be a grouch but IMO he has reason to be. And if I am a troll so be it. But I, like UB, have a clue on what makes a plant tick as he puts it. Its not fucking rocket science like many of you noobs make it out to be. Or even sometimes I think want it too be.
The defoliated plant in the background if coming up woefully short as I knew it would. But I decided to pluck it just for shits and giggles rather than cull it. 



Healthy, happy plants make happy growers. You know, frosting on the cake.....




Quit looking for short cuts and magic. Learn how to grow an annual for gosh sakes.......


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## Alexander Supertramp (Mar 22, 2013)

This so called method is pretty much like a bunch of kids playing with Play-Doh. Ya you can take it out of the containers and shape it almost endlessly. But when play time is over it all still fits back into the container. Nothing gained but enjoyment. If you all want to pluck for your own enjoyment then have at it. If you had fun good deal. Just do not attach all of the bullshit claims to your playtime.


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## potroastV2 (Mar 22, 2013)

Well, I'd say we have hashed this subject fully! 

Closed.


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