why the abundance of shitty strains?

guy incognito · May 28, 2010

I keep hearing about wicked awesome medical marijuana strains that just blow street weed out of the water. No comparison.

So why do we still have genetically inferior weed? Humans have been cultivating it for thousands of years and have come up with some awesomely potent strains. Why would anyone ever use something so genetically inferior? It just doesn't make any sense to me. It would be like developing a strain of watermelon that produces bigger, and more of, a fruit that is even sweeter and tastier than the melon you know. Then when you go to the store to buy melon you get "regular" watermelon because that's what all the farmers grow, so that's whats readily available.

I would assume that once that watermelon strain was developed that the rest would die out. Why bother growing shitty watermelon when you can just get a better plant or seed? EVERYONE would just start growing the plant with superior genetics until eventually that's all that's abundantly available.

Does it take anymore effort or knowledge to grow a medical marijuana strain as opposed to regular $100/oz weed? I'm sure the knowledge and care used with medical strains improves the product, but the same care and knowledge could improve ANY plant you grow.

So is there a true landslide discrepancy in the genetic quality of medical marijuana and regular? I'm starting believe it's pure hype. The only legitimate reason behind the strain craze that I can see is having predictable qualities bred into them. That is a good reason in and of itself I think, but that doesn't explain why the vast majority of marijuana I encounter is "genetically inferior". It just doesn't make any sense. Hopefully someone can shed some light on this topic and enlighten me.

ganji11 · May 28, 2010

Genetics only play a part in how good the pot is. How the plant was grown has alot to do with it.

theexpress · May 28, 2010

ganji11 said:
Genetics only play a part in how good the pot is. How the plant was grown has alot to do with it.

genetics plays the biggest role of all......

guy incognito · May 28, 2010

ganji11 said:
Genetics only play a part in how good the pot is. How the plant was grown has alot to do with it.

That was/is my assumption.

theexpress said:
genetics plays the biggest role of all......

This is what I keep being told. It just doesn't make any sense that such an easily propagated plant has such a wide range of genetic diversity when it is purposely grown. Wild weed? Makes sense there is all kinds; whatever can survive lives on. But when we are cultivating it generation after generation for the thc content why would anyone bother with inferior genetics? There is clearly demand out there for the product, why is the supply not following?

I'm not a commercial farmer, but even if I was going to just grow for myself and close friends I would still make the effort to get the best genetics possible. Why even bother with the inferior genetics unless that's literally all you have access to? But again that brings me back to my original point that even if that's all you have available, EVENTUALLY better genetics will pass through your hands. And when it does you propagate it. And when inferior genetics pass through your hands you don't propagate it because you already have superior genetics. Slowly but surely inferior genetics will be replaced by plants with superior genetics until you eventually culminate to a point where all you have are superior genetics. I feel like we should be at that point. Thousands of years of intentional cultivation should have weeded out the bad seeds.

Like this $100/oz bag of weed im looking at right now. Why did someone grow these genetics for the last 1,000 generations if its so inferior to all these other strains? It just doesn't make sense.

robert 14617 · May 28, 2010

during prohibition of alcohol ,do you think the bath tub gin was high quality?

theexpress · May 28, 2010

guy incognito said:
That was/is my assumption.

This is what I keep being told. It just doesn't make any sense that such an easily propagated plant has such a wide range of genetic diversity when it is purposely grown. Wild weed? Makes sense there is all kinds; whatever can survive lives on. But when we are cultivating it generation after generation for the thc content why would anyone bother with inferior genetics? There is clearly demand out there for the product, why is the supply not following?

I'm not a commercial farmer, but even if I was going to just grow for myself and close friends I would still make the effort to get the best genetics possible. Why even bother with the inferior genetics unless that's literally all you have access to? But again that brings me back to my original point that even if that's all you have available, EVENTUALLY better genetics will pass through your hands. And when it does you propagate it. And when inferior genetics pass through your hands you don't propagate it because you already have superior genetics. Slowly but surely inferior genetics will be replaced by plants with superior genetics until you eventually culminate to a point where all you have are superior genetics. I feel like we should be at that point. Thousands of years of intentional cultivation should have weeded out the bad seeds.

Like this $100/oz bag of weed im looking at right now. Why did someone grow these genetics for the last 1,000 generations if its so inferior to all these other strains? It just doesn't make sense.

because its ready available in the 1000's of seeds........ even the mexicans started to wisen up and importing dutch and canadian genetics that would do well in mexican enviorment to cross into there own landraces...

genetics= proper selective breeding over many generations.... it just doesnt happen naturally in the wild

theexpress · May 28, 2010

theexpress said:
because its ready available in the 1000's of seeds........ even the mexicans started to wisen up and importing dutch and canadian genetics that would do well in mexican enviorment to cross into there own landraces...

genetics= proper selective breeding over many generations.... it just doesnt happen naturally in the wild

proper growing is nice, but is not the biggest factor... try growing some hemp in the best enviorment you can.. it will still be hemp

ganjaluvr · May 28, 2010

its not hype... you mean to tell me that you cannot tell a difference between the two?

you can't tell a difference between smoking some mexican dirty schwagg thats full of stems and seeds.. versus smoking a nice beautiful bowl of some delicious White Widow? (white widow; just using that one as an example as they all taste good.. but taste differently as well.)

Also, I can smoke a bowl or two of some Kind Buds.. and be stoned for the next 2 hours or longer. Or.. I could go out and spend $20 on a bag of some tasteless crappy regs.. but guess what.. I'm going to choose not only the one that I like the best (kind buds of course).. but I'm going to make the logical decision and choose the one that tastes better and has more THC in it..

but then again, personally.. I stopped messing with dealers. They're too much of a pain in the ass.. and think that everyone should have to wait for

whenever is more convenient for them to meet up or whatever.

I'm going to go take a nap now. After that second bowl... I'm getting sleepy. Thank GOD its a holiday weekend eh? Woot woot!

peace

Brick Top · May 28, 2010

guy incognito said:
That was/is my assumption.

This is what I keep being told. It just doesn't make any sense that such an easily propagated plant has such a wide range of genetic diversity when it is purposely grown. Wild weed? Makes sense there is all kinds; whatever can survive lives on. But when we are cultivating it generation after generation for the thc content why would anyone bother with inferior genetics? There is clearly demand out there for the product, why is the supply not following?

I'm not a commercial farmer, but even if I was going to just grow for myself and close friends I would still make the effort to get the best genetics possible. Why even bother with the inferior genetics unless that's literally all you have access to? But again that brings me back to my original point that even if that's all you have available, EVENTUALLY better genetics will pass through your hands. And when it does you propagate it. And when inferior genetics pass through your hands you don't propagate it because you already have superior genetics. Slowly but surely inferior genetics will be replaced by plants with superior genetics until you eventually culminate to a point where all you have are superior genetics. I feel like we should be at that point. Thousands of years of intentional cultivation should have weeded out the bad seeds.

Like this $100/oz bag of weed im looking at right now. Why did someone grow these genetics for the last 1,000 generations if its so inferior to all these other strains? It just doesn't make sense.

First off while marijuana has been cultivated for thousands of years it is not as if the plant is fully understood even today so it is not as if anyone could have been expected to breed ‘The Holy Grail’ at any time unless it was at least partially by luck/accident.

Then consider how when you breed you need a stable of genetics. For the thousands of years marijuana has been cultivated how long has there been any sort of organized distribution system for genetics from around the world? For most of the time period you talked about the most anyone could do it work with what grew wild regionally that they would have access too. Depending where someone lived in the world that could mean all sativa or all indica, and maybe only one or two strains within the size area someone might travel back then. That doesn’t give you a lot to work with when it comes to breeding.

It was asked why all the low-grade genetics? The answer is basically stupidity combined with budgetary constraints and greed.

The average grower of recreational strains is always looking for Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride and every flavor of the month strain that hits the marketplace catches the eye of that type of buyer. Some little clown shoe who never smoked anything better than Roadside Red purchases their first professionally created genetics, they have a little luck and their grow is at least fairly successful, they smoke it and it knocks their bubblebummer-socks off and then they post on sites like this how it’s the best strain in the entire world. Every other little clown shoe-bubblegummer who reads the message orders then orders the crap, is impressed and the word spreads how the mid-grade genetics are SPECTACULAR … when they are not. That’s the stupidity part.

The budgetary part is many growers cannot shell out large sums of money for top genetics so there is a marketplace for less expensive genetics and less expensive will always mean lower quality. But there are a lot of people who can only afford the lesser priced genetics so a new fresh supply of so-so genetics stream out yearly and the combination of the stupidity factor and the budgetary factor can combine for a lot of sales for differing reasons.

The greed part is on the part of some breeders. Some breeders will not release everything they create because all are not success stories but others will release everything they make. They attempt to market it well, give it a catch name, somewhat embellish how good it is and then sit back and let the stupidity and budgetary factors kick in and when that happens the dollars pour in. Some breeders would rather sit in the evening and look at their investment portfolio than a Cannabis Cup on the wall and those guys will flood the market with just about every single combination of genetics they can put together to keep the bucks flowing in regardless of most of it not being anything special.

Then there is a small segment of the market that only wants lower to mid-level genetics. They are ones that enjoy an easy going light buzz where they can fully function as they want to but with that little extra chipper feeling going on in the background. As difficult as it might be for some to believe, that is all that some people want from what they smoke. So there is a legitimate marketplace, small though it might be, for middle of the road genetics.

When it comes to what some med strain smokers say, take it with a grain of salt. In some cases what some say is true about quality but for some reason in some med growers/smokers a curious psychological phenomenon occurs where once they are legal and they have access to med strains, even if they are not really better they instantly become by far the best in the entire world. Why? Because that person can get it and most others cannot.

In other words, some embellish.

I have a friend who lives in Northern California who has a med card and he bragged up a storm about the worlds greatest strains were not only med strains but ones found in Cal. I did have to admit a few I have tried were very good, but not way better than other top genetics, and some he said were fantastic were not as good as things I smoked in the late 60’s and 70’s.

Some are very high quality, but others are not nearly what they are made out to be by some.

What I find curious is how med strains are expected to be Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride when they are not bred for recreational purposes and instead for medicinal purposes. If someone suffers pain or a eating disorder or something their brain does not need to be in Oz to get the type of relief they need.

If people breeding ‘medications’ believes that they have to put the patient in the ozone when they smoke it along with actually treating the patient’s medical problems then someone else needs to be breeding ‘medications.’

ganji11 · May 28, 2010

I was just saying theres different variables on how good that pot is going to be. You can take the dankest seed out there, grow it in bad conditions and still end up with bad pot

theexpress · May 28, 2010

ganji11 said:
I was just saying theres different variables on how good that pot is going to be. You can take the dankest seed out there, grow it in bad conditions and still end up with bad pot

NO!!!!!! you cant!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if it gets pollinated to shit!!!!!!!!! it will still be fucking dank.....has long has you harvest at peak potency......

guy incognito · May 28, 2010

robert 14617 said:
during prohibition of alcohol ,do you think the bath tub gin was high quality?

No. That has nothing to do with the genetics of the yeast though, that is 100% process. Same way I would expect better quality from a greenhouse than a closet for the exact same plant.

theexpress said:
because its ready available in the 1000's of seeds........ even the mexicans started to wisen up and importing dutch and canadian genetics that would do well in mexican enviorment to cross into there own landraces...

genetics= proper selective breeding over many generations.... it just doesnt happen naturally in the wild

As far as I know i've never smoked wild grown weed. I'm pretty sure it's all been consciously cultivated for sale.

theexpress said:
proper growing is nice, but is not the biggest factor... try growing some hemp in the best enviorment you can.. it will still be hemp

I won't do that for the same reason I won't try to get high quality weed from tomato seeds.

ganjaluvr said:
its not hype... you mean to tell me that you cannot tell a difference between the two?

you can't tell a difference between smoking some mexican dirty schwagg thats full of stems and seeds.. versus smoking a nice beautiful bowl of some delicious White Widow? (white widow; just using that one as an example as they all taste good.. but taste differently as well.)

Also, I can smoke a bowl or two of some Kind Buds.. and be stoned for the next 2 hours or longer. Or.. I could go out and spend $20 on a bag of some tasteless crappy regs.. but guess what.. I'm going to choose not only the one that I like the best (kind buds of course).. but I'm going to make the logical decision and choose the one that tastes better and has more THC in it..

but then again, personally.. I stopped messing with dealers. They're too much of a pain in the ass.. and think that everyone should have to wait for

whenever is more convenient for them to meet up or whatever.

I'm going to go take a nap now. After that second bowl... I'm getting sleepy. Thank GOD its a holiday weekend eh? Woot woot!

peace

I can, but I do not have a genetic decoder to tell exactly what genetics the weed I smoke has. All I know is how it affects me. I have no way to tell whether its genetics or environment that makes it that way. Which brings us to this thread.

Brick Top said:
First off while marijuana has been cultivated for thousands of years it is not as if the plant is fully understood even today so it is not as if anyone could have been expected to breed ‘The Holy Grail’ at any time unless it was at least partially by luck/accident.

Then consider how when you breed you need a stable of genetics. For the thousands of years marijuana has been cultivated how long has there been any sort of organized distribution system for genetics from around the world? For most of the time period you talked about the most anyone could do it work with what grew wild regionally that they would have access too. Depending where someone lived in the world that could mean all sativa or all indica, and maybe only one or two strains within the size area someone might travel back then. That doesn’t give you a lot to work with when it comes to breeding.

It was asked why all the low-grade genetics? The answer is basically stupidity combined with budgetary constraints and greed.

The average grower of recreational strains is always looking for Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride and every flavor of the month strain that hits the marketplace catches the eye of that type of buyer. Some little clown shoe who never smoked anything better than Roadside Red purchases their first professionally created genetics, they have a little luck and their grow is at least fairly successful, they smoke it and it knocks their bubblebummer-socks off and then they post on sites like this how it’s the best strain in the entire world. Every other little clown shoe-bubblegummer who reads the message orders then orders the crap, is impressed and the word spreads how the mid-grade genetics are SPECTACULAR … when they are not. That’s the stupidity part.

The budgetary part is many growers cannot shell out large sums of money for top genetics so there is a marketplace for less expensive genetics and less expensive will always mean lower quality. But there are a lot of people who can only afford the lesser priced genetics so a new fresh supply of so-so genetics stream out yearly and the combination of the stupidity factor and the budgetary factor can combine for a lot of sales for differing reasons.

The greed part is on the part of some breeders. Some breeders will not release everything they create because all are not success stories but others will release everything they make. They attempt to market it well, give it a catch name, somewhat embellish how good it is and then sit back and let the stupidity and budgetary factors kick in and when that happens the dollars pour in. Some breeders would rather sit in the evening and look at their investment portfolio than a Cannabis Cup on the wall and those guys will flood the market with just about every single combination of genetics they can put together to keep the bucks flowing in regardless of most of it not being anything special.

Then there is a small segment of the market that only wants lower to mid-level genetics. They are ones that enjoy an easy going light buzz where they can fully function as they want to but with that little extra chipper feeling going on in the background. As difficult as it might be for some to believe, that is all that some people want from what they smoke. So there is a legitimate marketplace, small though it might be, for middle of the road genetics.

When it comes to what some med strain smokers say, take it with a grain of salt. In some cases what some say is true about quality but for some reason in some med growers/smokers a curious psychological phenomenon occurs where once they are legal and they have access to med strains, even if they are not really better they instantly become by far the best in the entire world. Why? Because that person can get it and most others cannot.

In other words, some embellish.

I have a friend who lives in Northern California who has a med card and he bragged up a storm about the worlds greatest strains were not only med strains but ones found in Cal. I did have to admit a few I have tried were very good, but not way better than other top genetics, and some he said were fantastic were not as good as things I smoked in the late 60’s and 70’s.

Some are very high quality, but others are not nearly what they are made out to be by some.

What I find curious is how med strains are expected to be Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride when they are not bred for recreational purposes and instead for medicinal purposes. If someone suffers pain or a eating disorder or something their brain does not need to be in Oz to get the type of relief they need.

If people breeding ‘medications’ believes that they have to put the patient in the ozone when they smoke it along with actually treating the patient’s medical problems then someone else needs to be breeding ‘medications.’

Some good points, but I still don't think that argument holds any water. My mind isn't boggled by the diversity or regional differences between plants - in fact that's exactly what I would expect from thousands of years of breeding.

We haven't had a worldwide trading/distribution system for as long as the plants have been bred which explains regional differences, but that doesn't explain the continued use of inferior genetics. All these localized strains should still continually improve. We shouldn't have a "holy grail" plant; we should have thousands of local holy grails. When is the last time you seen a shitty strain of tomatoes? Or seen a shitty strain for sale? Or ever heard of a gardener growing a plant with inferior genetics? You don't. The technology is here to funnel your resources into plants that produce better. If the tomato plants didn't produce as effectively as other strains or fruit as much nobody would continue to cultivate it.

And I realize some people will embelish and medical grade marijuana will be an "elite" club because some can get it while others can't. But i'll go back to the tomato example. If someone had access to a superior genetic strain of tomatoes, and it was the envy of everyone who enjoys tomatoes, and it was so good that it won a "tomato cup" award, why would people still be farming their own inferior bad seed tomatoes 20 years later?

I grew 4 small plants under fluorescent lights several years ago. I was inexperienced and had no resources, so it was all bag seed (so I experienced the genetics first hand before I grew). I ended up with 12 grams of weird tasting airy buds. It was however about 10X as potent as the bag seed was which leads me to believe the environment and the fact it was sinsemilla was more important than genetics.

guy incognito · May 28, 2010

My whole point boils down to this:

In the wild anything that survives will grow. As long as it's not a factor in the plant being able to survive I would expect to find a large range of variables. After thousands of years I would expect only high thc plants only if the thc offered some survival benefit.

In the cultivation world the only things that grow are things that are purposely grown for specific reasons. This leads to continual improvements in the genetics leading to improvement of the cultivators final goal. I assume the final goal of anyone growing to to get the highest quality bud with the highest THC content with minimal resources. And also good traits to have, like being resistant to a number of stressors, etc. So outside of a very specific breeding purpose (ie develop a strain to treat nausea more effectively) we should already be inundated with high quality genetics just like we are with other plants (vegetables, fruits, trees, shrubs, grasses). And just like it wouldn't make any sense to go get inferior genetics to grow your vegetables when there are better seeds out there, it doesn't make any sense to grow weed that way. And there should be no shortage of availability to those good genetics (barring legal barriers of course).

So even if there is limited access to these good genetics in time they should replace the bad genetics. We have already had enough time to weed inferior genetics out and use only superior.

theexpress · May 28, 2010

you guys got the game wrong... marijuana cannabis sativa origenated in s.e. asia.. it then spread the globe. the furthur it got out with diffrent enviorments and threw many generations sub groups evolved... indica, and ruderliss......

then came the 60's and the hippies... they travled all parts of the globe, india, afghanistan, turkey, australia, africa, jamaica ect. and gatherd many diffrent landraces and brought them back.... they then started interbreeding with them, creating hybrids and new strains... some of the best early "genetics" were blueberry, northern lights, haze, and skunk, and afghani. they date back to the 70's!!!! these strains were early dank basikly and blew the best landraces out the water thats why there still around and most pure landraces arent. people breeding for diffrent purposes is the reason we have the bomb strains of today.... it doesnt happen like that in the wild....... it takes time and effort to get those genetics...

tinyTURTLE · May 28, 2010

lol @ the idea of dutch genetics.
it's ALL hybridized landraces and phenos.
skunk #1 is mexican, colombian and afghani.
NL#5 (afghan/thai?)is a variety Nevil of The Seed Bank said was only available pure as a cutting.
neville's haze is mexican, colombian and thai.
super silver haze is skunk #1, NL#5, and neville's haze.
etc. etc. etc.
it all builds on itself.
and taking care to capture those rare, awesome pheno genetics in a hybrid if not a stable strain is most important.
my friend has a clone-only strain that is SSH x big bud. i have some seeds from that that are back-crossed with the original SSH mother.
can't wait.

guy incognito · May 29, 2010

theexpress said:
you guys got the game wrong... marijuana cannabis sativa origenated in s.e. asia.. it then spread the globe. the furthur it got out with diffrent enviorments and threw many generations sub groups evolved... indica, and ruderliss......

then came the 60's and the hippies... they travled all parts of the globe, india, afghanistan, turkey, australia, africa, jamaica ect. and gatherd many diffrent landraces and brought them back.... they then started interbreeding with them, creating hybrids and new strains... some of the best early "genetics" were blueberry, northern lights, haze, and skunk, and afghani. they date back to the 70's!!!! these strains were early dank basikly and blew the best landraces out the water thats why there still around and most pure landraces arent. people breeding for diffrent purposes is the reason we have the bomb strains of today.... it doesnt happen like that in the wild....... it takes time and effort to get those genetics...

So people developed awesome hybrids 40 years ago and yet the vast majority of weed still possesses inferior genetics? This is exactly what I don't understand.

theexpress · May 29, 2010

guy incognito said:
So people developed awesome hybrids 40 years ago and yet the vast majority of weed still possesses inferior genetics? This is exactly what I don't understand.

yes because these elite genetics cost money.... imagine having to pay for 1000's of good seeds, and your a mexican peasent farmer.... also its a thing of pride cuzz some of those farmers have been growing the same strains for generations.. but like i saido in the case of mexico the cartells were buying dutch and canadian genetics toput on the menu.... also mexicans are using other mexican to grow improved high octane outdoor strains on our national forrests....... basickly there tryna compete with the american grown domestic crop and the canadians to......

greasemonkeymann · May 29, 2010

thats why the best strains you can get are from the individual "seasoned farmer", not commercial growers.
It's like strawberries, anyone ever grown strawberries?
if you have you'll know that homegrown strawberries are 10 times better than store bought,
commercial guys care about resistance to mold, bugs, drought and so on, before they address potency.
I agree that a plant potency is limited by it's genetics, but you can grow the same strain with different methods and get a vastly different product, one of my best strains grown indoors under a 600w hps & a 400w MH smokes and looks so much different than the same one grown outside.
you could easily tell someone they are a different product, and they are. Although genetically identical.

spandy · May 29, 2010

the problem is an uncontrolled market. you will always have hacks and shitty quality to anything in this world because of lazy unskilled wannabes, but the reason for the abundance of shitty strains is merely tied into the legal status of cannabis.

tinyTURTLE · May 29, 2010

greasemonkeymann said:
thats why the best strains you can get are from the individual "seasoned farmer", not commercial growers.
It's like strawberries, anyone ever grown strawberries?
if you have you'll know that homegrown strawberries are 10 times better than store bought,
commercial guys care about resistance to mold, bugs, drought and so on, before they address potency.
I agree that a plant potency is limited by it's genetics, but you can grow the same strain with different methods and get a vastly different product, one of my best strains grown indoors under a 600w hps & a 400w MH smokes and looks so much different than the same one grown outside.
you could easily tell someone they are a different product, and they are. Although genetically identical.

totally seen that. where clones from the same plant wind up different indoors and out.

why the abundance of shitty strains?

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