so seriously, does pH and organics go together??

hydroMD said:

Sounds like nitrogen with the dark green color. I could see Low ph from a hot soil attributing to the problem.

If he cooked his soil for 6 months, chances are he didn't add enough lime and egg shells to account for the warm acidic conditions that would produce.

Microbes provide a nice buffer but there are limits I tell ya!!!

Click to expand...

lime takes 2 years to break down. Too much available lime will lock out calcium though. Too much calcium will lock out mag. Too much mag will lock out calcium and potassium.

hyroot: 11432806 said:

lime takes 2 years to break down. Too much available lime will lock out calcium though. Too much calcium will lock out mag. Too much mag will lock out calcium and potassium.

Click to expand...

I dont mean he didnt add enough in the sense it has broke down and no longer viable;

Im saying he may have added too little into his mix to account for how acidic his cooked soil has become.

Heavy organics and bennies, with warm damp conditions for 6 months is gonna build up some acidity; watering with zero runoff is going to contribute to this as well.

Thoughts? I consider you a reliable source on the subject.


Edit: I wonder if watering with 20-30% runoff every other watering wouldnt fix this problem in a couple weeks honestly

JSJ said:

I should be watering at half strength??? How do I use half strength water?? No offense, but judging from your name, sounds like are can hydro guy, and using ferts. I'm in soil watering with water, straight from the grocery store, which checks at 7.0pH with a very low ppm. Reference to just how clean the water going in is.

Click to expand...

I flower my mothers in organic soil. Feed them organic nutrients. Seem to have good results. just trying to help a brotha out!

I have a little knowledge on the subject and enjoy garden troubleshooting; if you'd rather id be happy to spend my time elsewhere

If you don't water until you get some runoff, then it stands to reason that there could be dry pockets in the soil or the roots are growing into a drier zone with less microbial action. I say water a little more even if it means waiting another day, get some beneficials with humic acid working their thang.

This is what can happens when you don't let your dolomite lime cook long enough / don't have enough.


You should really listen to Pattahabi. If I would have listened to his advice last year I wouldn't have been in the mess I am currently with magnesium deficiencies directly related to dolomite lime usage.

I'd also highly suggest some vermicompost for a top dress. You'd be surprised how much your rhizosphere dictates your soil health.

Why would adding ewc/vermicompost at the top of your pots be beneficial when you have ewc in the entire mix?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil
Topsoil is the upper, outermost layer of soil, usually the top 2 inches (5.1 cm) to 8 inches (20 cm). It has the highest concentration of organic matter and microorganisms and is where most of the Earth's biological soil activity occurs.


Importance

Plants generally concentrate their roots in and obtain most of their vital nutrients from this layer. The actual depth of the topsoil layer can be measured as the depth from the surface to the first densely packed soil layer known as subsoil.

If you don't have a mulch on top of your pots, you are continuously drying out the area where the most microlife is happening, thus stifling nutrient cycling.

P-

Pattahabi said:

Why would adding ewc/vermicompost at the top of your pots be beneficial when you have ewc in the entire mix?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil
Topsoil is the upper, outermost layer of soil, usually the top 2 inches (5.1 cm) to 8 inches (20 cm). It has the highest concentration of organic matter and microorganisms and is where most of the Earth's biological soil activity occurs.

Importance

Plants generally concentrate their roots in and obtain most of their vital nutrients from this layer. The actual depth of the topsoil layer can be measured as the depth from the surface to the first densely packed soil layer known as subsoil.

If you don't have a mulch on top of your pots, you are continuously drying out the area where the most microlife is happening, thus stifling nutrient cycling.

P-

Click to expand...

My grandfather in times of desperation in our hot Midwest summers would place cardboard around his plants' base when his mulch wasn't enough to stop the evaporation. He showed me once when he lifted it up how moist it was underneath, completely blew my mind.
When I mulch my planters properly in combination with a cover crop I get roots that grow through my cover crop. If I peel it back it's a sea of healthy roots. This doesn't happen in planters that are always dry in the rhizosphere. Which is an unfortunate practice of indoor cannabis growers.

JSJ said:

That's funny cause if I was growing blueberries I would pH my soil down for them. So to say you don't need to pH a good organic soil is against what the plant needs. Just because you have a good micro heard doesn't seem to automatically mean you don't need to check your pH.

Click to expand...

then you dont understand the science of true organics then....
true organics feed microbes,microbes feed the plant in a truly balanced ecosystem

Ifbyou are not getting any runoff, you shoukd be watering at half strength. Organics can build up in your soil and create lockout just like synthetics.

Runoff allows excess salts to drain from your medium.

what an incorrect rubbish statement!untrue!00%

true organics can only be done in a soil type medium,not hydroponic

My soil is based off of the "re-dun-that" ss. My base was a local organic soil(compost, peat, mulch, sand), my own compost(leaves, clippings, veggie scraps, egg shells, coffee grinds with filter) and EWC. Addmendments are bone meal, blood meal, gauno, lime, azomite, Epsom, humic acid and some myco innacculant. Its been cooking now for about 6 months and I have watered with EWC tea a few times.



leaves, clippings, veggie scraps, egg shells, coffee grinds with filter
it takes months to break those materials down!

and never let your medium dry out in organics!

JSJ said:

My soil is based off of the "re-dun-that" ss. My base was a local organic soil(compost, peat, mulch, sand), my own compost(leaves, clippings, veggie scraps, egg shells, coffee grinds with filter) and EWC. Addmendments are bone meal, blood meal, gauno, lime, azomite, Epsom, humic acid and some myco innacculant. Its been cooking now for about 6 months and I have watered with EWC tea a few times.

My water comes from the water dispenser at the grocery. It pH's right at 7.0 and usually reads around 50ppm.

I have been told from the start of my indoor experience 3 things to remember when watering, 1) dry, 2) Dry and 3) DRY. So I have never watered my pots enough to ever get any run off. So I couldn't tell you what my soil runoff pH is.

However I have what looks like pH problems on some girls. Slow growth, dark green leaves on one of them and the one right beside her has twisted new growth.

So since I never water to the point of run off, I scooped up an ounce or so of soil and mixed it with an ounce or so of pH7.0, 52ppm water. Stirred it up good and then strained it into a cup. I rechecked the water and it pH'ed at 5.2 with 456ppm.

Now, first off, I already now that the soil I scooped up off the top of the pot does not give a good representation of the soil in the root zone. And there seems to be a huge fight over whether pH is important in organics. But if pH is not important, why have farmers for centuries addmended soils organically for correct pH?

Why do I add lime to pH a soil? Must be important for some reason. So is a soil pH of 5.2 too low?

Click to expand...

First, and i'll be blunt. And this is with much love, so don't get all butthurt.
supersoil is shitty. Too much water soluble nutrients, not enough IPMS, not enough "quality" ph control (oyster flour, crab meal, biochar, etc.)
If you never have watered enough for it to runoff you have a big wod of lovely bloody mess at the bottom of your pots. You absolutely MUST water thoroughly when you establish your mix at first.
Blood meal is shitty, d-lime is shitty, bat guano is shitty, and bone meal is shitty (not to mention potentially insanely hazardous to your health, maybe fatal go look up CFE, or madcow)
Twisted new growth is a sign of too much nutrients (surprise that's what happens when you use soluble nutrients, you can't control how they effect your plants, and soil web)
You need dry-slow release nutrients.
neem meal, kelp meal, feather meal, fish bone meal, crab meal, etc.

JSJ said:

That's funny cause if I was growing blueberries I would pH my soil down for them. So to say you don't need to pH a good organic soil is against what the plant needs. Just because you have a good micro heard doesn't seem to automatically mean you don't need to check your pH.

Click to expand...

I think this statement is correct to a degree, I think it goes without saying that a "normal" organic soil recipe shouldn't have to be tweaked in regards to ph, but obviously this is because our soil mixes are designed for cannabis, not blueberries (liking a more moist and acidic condition)
I grow both, the blueberries I have in a peat based mix without the ph "correcting" attributes of oyster flour, and crab meal
PH is obviously important to a degree, most of our (the general organic consensus) is that a proper soil recipe made for cannabis, PH isn't an issue.
If you are making your own soil/playing in the dirt/learning on your own, PH can fuck you good.
Just ask @cannakis
Poor guy.
You'll be chasing your tail around and around that way.

greasemonkeymann said:

I think this statement is correct to a degree, I think it goes without saying that a "normal" organic soil recipe shouldn't have to be tweaked in regards to ph, but obviously this is because our soil mixes are designed for cannabis, not blueberries (liking a more moist and acidic condition)
I grow both, the blueberries I have in a peat based mix without the ph "correcting" attributes of oyster flour, and crab meal
PH is obviously important to a degree, most of our (the general organic consensus) is that a proper soil recipe made for cannabis, PH isn't an issue.
If you are making your own soil/playing in the dirt/learning on your own, PH can fuck you good.
Just ask @cannakis
Poor guy.
You'll be chasing your tail around and around that way.

Click to expand...

Hahaha! You want me to post some pictures of my Hot soil snd its phosphorus toxicity?!? Because just checked and Again lookin shitty.! After two weeks in flower or three weeks veg it starts to ease into it and looks great... The remaining few who survived.!

Honestly buying ProMix Mycho to make half and half batches for my young girls because I'm sick of this shit! Haha one day that soil will be ready.!!!

Haha poor guy!

Damn, y'all been busy while I was gone!!

First off, I sincerely apologize to anyone who feels I am harsh. Not my intentions. Also there as been my replies so I am just gonna generalize this post back to everybody.

Secondly, me nor any of my family are professionals, lol. Yes my uncle has successfully grown indoor for 50yrs, has some great smoke, but he is an old hippie holding on to the old, T12s, hypenex soil and miracle grow. He has helped me a lot in my first few indoor harvests.

But to me organics is where it is at. I'm coming from an outdoor background using wood dirt and shit and watering with creek water. Never had any need for chems and I don't want to use them inside now. So here I am.

My compost pile is not the latest and greatest, do it the same way grandpa did his, but it is FULL of worms and shit disappears in there almost over night it seems.

Not sure why y'all think I'm not hear to listen. I was excited to see the likes of patta, hyroot, grease monkey to grace my post.

I like to do shit on my own. If I don't know something I read. Greg Green, Jorge and JC Stitch are readily at an arms reach in my grow room.

I mostly read USDA studies, college studies, attra papers, and try to put half of what I read on here together with what I already know (which ain't much) to figure out what I need to know.

One thing that I am learning is not only do I usually only read posts from the aforementioned, I need to get my hands on Jane Ingram.

So after learning to keep things dry(which helped out tremendously for my roots) I need to keep things wet again??

My last harvest, using this same watering schedule, I had huge roots right on top of the soil, barely even covered, plants never had any stress from being dried out, and at harvest I had beer can sized tastey ass buds.

As for SS it was a starting point to go from for me. I know this recipe was hot, so as per subcools YouTube seminar, only the bottom gallon got straight hot soil, the top 2 gallons where mixed up in thirds with my compost and ewc.

Last grow I only used my pH meter once. That is when I switch to getting my water from the grocery. I pH'ed it and checked the ppm, and never touched them again. Everything ran through fine........

So I should ease up on the teas?? It works out to being like twice a month.

The thin layer of ewc and excessive teas, stems from the fact that when I was thinking the soil hadn't composted enough I was trying to jam my pots full of life to break the soil down faster.

Then the growth rates seemed to stop, one turned dark green with rough leaves and the other looks healthy but the new growth is twisting, almost looks like heat stress, but temps never hit 85.

So I went with pH, came here and started reading a library of fueds over pH and organics. Left and did some more reading about organics and pH. Finally came to the conclusion that you can make an acidic organic thriving soil, with plant/micros/soil in perfect harmony.

Which tends to tell me, if I pH a scoop of soil, and it reads 5.2, then the rhythm of my soil is out of time with my plant.

I think I might of errored in the amount of lime I used??

Thoughts and guidance??

JSJ said:

Damn, y'all been busy while I was gone!!

First off, I sincerely apologize to anyone who feels I am harsh. Not my intentions. Also there as been my replies so I am just gonna generalize this post back to everybody.

Secondly, me nor any of my family are professionals, lol. Yes my uncle has successfully grown indoor for 50yrs, has some great smoke, but he is an old hippie holding on to the old, T12s, hypenex soil and miracle grow. He has helped me a lot in my first few indoor harvests.

But to me organics is where it is at. I'm coming from an outdoor background using wood dirt and shit and watering with creek water. Never had any need for chems and I don't want to use them inside now. So here I am.

My compost pile is not the latest and greatest, do it the same way grandpa did his, but it is FULL of worms and shit disappears in there almost over night it seems.

Not sure why y'all think I'm not hear to listen. I was excited to see the likes of patta, hyroot, grease monkey to grace my post.

I like to do shit on my own. If I don't know something I read. Greg Green, Jorge and JC Stitch are readily at an arms reach in my grow room.

I mostly read USDA studies, college studies, attra papers, and try to put half of what I read on here together with what I already know (which ain't much) to figure out what I need to know.

One thing that I am learning is not only do I usually only read posts from the aforementioned, I need to get my hands on Jane Ingram.

So after learning to keep things dry(which helped out tremendously for my roots) I need to keep things wet again??

My last harvest, using this same watering schedule, I had huge roots right on top of the soil, barely even covered, plants never had any stress from being dried out, and at harvest I had beer can sized tastey ass buds.

As for SS it was a starting point to go from for me. I know this recipe was hot, so as per subcools YouTube seminar, only the bottom gallon got straight hot soil, the top 2 gallons where mixed up in thirds with my compost and ewc.

Last grow I only used my pH meter once. That is when I switch to getting my water from the grocery. I pH'ed it and checked the ppm, and never touched them again. Everything ran through fine........

So I should ease up on the teas?? It works out to being like twice a month.

The thin layer of ewc and excessive teas, stems from the fact that when I was thinking the soil hadn't composted enough I was trying to jam my pots full of life to break the soil down faster.

Then the growth rates seemed to stop, one turned dark green with rough leaves and the other looks healthy but the new growth is twisting, almost looks like heat stress, but temps never hit 85.

So I went with pH, came here and started reading a library of fueds over pH and organics. Left and did some more reading about organics and pH. Finally came to the conclusion that you can make an acidic organic thriving soil, with plant/micros/soil in perfect harmony.

Which tends to tell me, if I pH a scoop of soil, and it reads 5.2, then the rhythm of my soil is out of time with my plant.

I think I might of errored in the amount of lime I used??

Thoughts and guidance??

Click to expand...

Haha my pH is 9.9+!!! Most go toxic but dvg's gear is lookin NASTY!!!!

fatburt said:

Ifbyou are not getting any runoff, you shoukd be watering at half strength. Organics can build up in your soil and create lockout just like synthetics.

Runoff allows excess salts to drain from your medium.

what an incorrect rubbish statement!untrue!00%

true organics can only be done in a soil type medium,not hydroponic

Click to expand...

So my dwc grown with only Hmri listed organics and organic teas is not organic? Huh

JSJ said:

Damn, y'all been busy while I was gone!!

First off, I sincerely apologize to anyone who feels I am harsh. Not my intentions. Also there as been my replies so I am just gonna generalize this post back to everybody.

Secondly, me nor any of my family are professionals, lol. Yes my uncle has successfully grown indoor for 50yrs, has some great smoke, but he is an old hippie holding on to the old, T12s, hypenex soil and miracle grow. He has helped me a lot in my first few indoor harvests.

But to me organics is where it is at. I'm coming from an outdoor background using wood dirt and shit and watering with creek water. Never had any need for chems and I don't want to use them inside now. So here I am.

My compost pile is not the latest and greatest, do it the same way grandpa did his, but it is FULL of worms and shit disappears in there almost over night it seems.

Not sure why y'all think I'm not hear to listen. I was excited to see the likes of patta, hyroot, grease monkey to grace my post.

I like to do shit on my own. If I don't know something I read. Greg Green, Jorge and JC Stitch are readily at an arms reach in my grow room.

I mostly read USDA studies, college studies, attra papers, and try to put half of what I read on here together with what I already know (which ain't much) to figure out what I need to know.

One thing that I am learning is not only do I usually only read posts from the aforementioned, I need to get my hands on Jane Ingram.

So after learning to keep things dry(which helped out tremendously for my roots) I need to keep things wet again??

My last harvest, using this same watering schedule, I had huge roots right on top of the soil, barely even covered, plants never had any stress from being dried out, and at harvest I had beer can sized tastey ass buds.

As for SS it was a starting point to go from for me. I know this recipe was hot, so as per subcools YouTube seminar, only the bottom gallon got straight hot soil, the top 2 gallons where mixed up in thirds with my compost and ewc.

Last grow I only used my pH meter once. That is when I switch to getting my water from the grocery. I pH'ed it and checked the ppm, and never touched them again. Everything ran through fine........

So I should ease up on the teas?? It works out to being like twice a month.

The thin layer of ewc and excessive teas, stems from the fact that when I was thinking the soil hadn't composted enough I was trying to jam my pots full of life to break the soil down faster.

Then the growth rates seemed to stop, one turned dark green with rough leaves and the other looks healthy but the new growth is twisting, almost looks like heat stress, but temps never hit 85.

So I went with pH, came here and started reading a library of fueds over pH and organics. Left and did some more reading about organics and pH. Finally came to the conclusion that you can make an acidic organic thriving soil, with plant/micros/soil in perfect harmony.

Which tends to tell me, if I pH a scoop of soil, and it reads 5.2, then the rhythm of my soil is out of time with my plant.

I think I might of errored in the amount of lime I used??

Thoughts and guidance??

Click to expand...

#1
If you want to get a real jumpstart on your microbes, grab a few gallons of soil under mature conifer growth. They give off tons of ectofungal spores, and have been for a hundred years. The soil under them is a hundred times better than store product.

Mix that into your compost. After a few months use your compost for tea, and to top dress with.

#2. if it is PH, then your microbes arent doing the trick. If you water with a little runoff it might bump things up a little so the plant can rely on its own feeding.

#3. If you can foliage feed at correct ph, you should be able to see new growth improve if it is indeed ph lockout due to microbe inactivity.

Why no pics? Would cut out a lot of guesswork

Pattahabi said:

Why would adding ewc/vermicompost at the top of your pots be beneficial when you have ewc in the entire mix?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil
Topsoil is the upper, outermost layer of soil, usually the top 2 inches (5.1 cm) to 8 inches (20 cm). It has the highest concentration of organic matter and microorganisms and is where most of the Earth's biological soil activity occurs.

Importance

Plants generally concentrate their roots in and obtain most of their vital nutrients from this layer. The actual depth of the topsoil layer can be measured as the depth from the surface to the first densely packed soil layer known as subsoil.

If you don't have a mulch on top of your pots, you are continuously drying out the area where the most microlife is happening, thus stifling nutrient cycling.

P-

Click to expand...

I always hear about the mulching from you all Haha actually because I Realize Now why the mulch trees, and how some things Really Do need a mulch.

But my question is does Cannabis Truly benefit from mulching or would tilling benefit better? Can you provide evidence proving such? Because some crops do Not need to stay moist and actually Hinders growth, like peanuts... And Cannabis is just that, an Agricultural Crop. Just asking, I would like to see side by side comparisons if anyone has any?

cannakis said:

I always hear about the mulching from you all Haha actually because I Realize Now why the mulch trees, and how some things Really Do need a mulch.

But my question is does Cannabis Truly benefit from mulching or would tilling benefit better? Can you provide evidence proving such? Because some crops do Not need to stay moist and actually Hinders growth, like peanuts... And Cannabis is just that, an Agricultural Crop. Just asking, I would like to see side by side comparisons if anyone has any?

Click to expand...

no tilling is bad, go read the no-till thread.
You destroy the soilweb that way.
Comparing peanut to cannabis is like... ummmm, comparing peanuts to cannabis.
Because it's an agricultural crop means nothing, everything is an agricultural crop.
Seriously man, sometimes I wonder if you post things just to get us all agitated, I thought you knew better.

Midwest Weedist said:

My grandfather in times of desperation in our hot Midwest summers would place cardboard around his plants' base when his mulch wasn't enough to stop the evaporation. He showed me once when he lifted it up how moist it was underneath, completely blew my mind.
When I mulch my planters properly in combination with a cover crop I get roots that grow through my cover crop. If I peel it back it's a sea of healthy roots. This doesn't happen in planters that are always dry in the rhizosphere. Which is an unfortunate practice of indoor cannabis growers.

Click to expand...

that's a really helpful way to help with high heats as well, I grew a guerilla crop in the foothills of central CA, it gets toasty there, like 115F in the summer and like 20% RH.
get lots of cardboard boxes and soak em, then either 2-3 layers does the trick, not only does it keep water there but lowers the temps as well, like a swamp cooler.
Be careful doing that though, only use that in low humidity, coupled with high heat.
If you have high heat AND humidity, then you'll be asking for mold breakouts as the soil will "steam" the plant with it's own transpirations.
VERY good trick for low humidity though.