Why is defoliation so controversial?

PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
I'm convinced that there is a part of ripening that the plant goes through which involves the leaves. I don't have the scientific studies to back me up, but there must be a functional design to the question of why a plant exhausts the chlorophyll in the leaves before it drops them. I don't believe that nature designs its systems to work the way they do, without a good reason. Why don't the plants naturally drop their leaves when they are still green and full of chlorophyll if it would benefit the flowers? There must be value in that chlorophyll, right? It must be doing something for the plants to use it up.

What if there was some kind of flavonoid/terpene development that was related to the leaves? Again..."What if?" Would an increase in yield be preferable to a loss in flavor? I would guess that if you were a large, commercial grow op, then yield would be more important. But a small batch, personal-use grower doesn't necessarily have that same goal. All anyone needs to do is to start scoping the buds on the commercial market. The trichomes are clear and the flavor is lacking. Coincidence? I don't think so. The buds look good from a distance. They are big and dense for sure. But I have to almost climb into the jars ti get any smell from them! I think it's a matter of the industry needing to meet a quota by harvesting plants before they go through a proper ripening stage.

People might be able to "prove" that defoliation increases yield, but I don't think yield should be the goal for most of us. I hear a lot of complaints from us older guys that the new weed just isn't as tasty as the older strains were. (I completely agree, btw!) I wonder if that might have something to do with the new standard that we have been introduced to via the industry.

Maybe we can improve upon flavors and terpenes by simply by applying small-batch grow standards and allowing the plants to do their thing in their own time...? I dunno...but that's what I'm going to focus on for awhile.
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I have a counter "what if" to your what if..

What if what you said is true, and what if the reason that leaves fade and drop at the end of flower is because the plants are ridding themselves of chlorophyll to more to the end ripening stage when they don't need the chlorophyll. What if leaves fading and dropping over weeks is as quick as the plants can naturally manipulate this process, ad they can not physically do it overnight. So, what if by defoliating the plants, we are assisting the plant in speeding up this natural process of self leaf removal? What if because we are assisting in this way, the plants ripen better with more flavor and potency?

This is a lot of what if's, but not too far out there either IMO.

Just remember that defoliation is huge in the cotton industry in terms of producing quality flowers. It's a standard practice. Just sayin.
 
Frost Spectre

Frost Spectre

Member
PJ Diaz said:
I have a counter "what if" to your what if..

What if what you said is true, and what if the reason that leaves fade and drop at the end of flower is because the plants are ridding themselves of chlorophyll to more to the end ripening stage when they don't need the chlorophyll. What if leaves fading and dropping over weeks is as quick as the plants can naturally manipulate this process, ad they can not physically do it overnight. So, what if by defoliating the plants, we are assisting the plant in speeding up this natural process of self leaf removal? What if because we are assisting in this way, the plants ripen better with more flavor and potency?

This is a lot of what if's, but not too far out there either IMO.

Just remember that defoliation is huge in the cotton industry in terms of producing quality flowers. It's a standard practice. Just sayin.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting point.

Defoliation has more practical functions other than increasing yield. In larger commercial operations defoliation is essential as a preventative to mitigate powdery mildew and other fungal infections. I've grown cannabis for a few years on a commerical level and can tell you that there are certain cultivars that don't react well to heavy defoliation. To solve this problem we were very selective in what we chose to run in our facility. We focused on plants that can handle high amounts of stress and have a higher caylx to bud ratio. Below I posted a picture of what can happen when you choose the wrong cultivar to heavily defoliate.IMG_20200522_113108.jpg
 
Rdubz

Rdubz

Well-Known Member
Frost Spectre said:
That's an interesting point.

Defoliation has more practical functions other than increasing yield. In larger commercial operations defoliation is essential as a preventative to mitigate powdery mildew and other fungal infections. I've grown cannabis for a few years on a commerical level and can tell you that there are certain cultivars that don't react well to heavy defoliation. To solve this problem we were very selective in what we chose to run in our facility. We focused on plants that can handle high amounts of stress and have a higher caylx to bud ratio. Below I posted a picture of what can happen when you choose the wrong cultivar to heavily defoliate.View attachment 4830039
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Them nanners man gotta love em ! What are the genetics if I don’t mind me asking and have u found indica dom strains to be more resistant to defoliation , ....very good points on knowing how far u can go with a strain!
 
Frost Spectre

Frost Spectre

Member
tstick said:
I'm convinced that there is a part of ripening that the plant goes through which involves the leaves. I don't have the scientific studies to back me up, but there must be a functional design to the question of why a plant exhausts the chlorophyll in the leaves before it drops them. I don't believe that nature designs its systems to work the way they do, without a good reason. Why don't the plants naturally drop their leaves when they are still green and full of chlorophyll if it would benefit the flowers? There must be value in that chlorophyll, right? It must be doing something for the plants to use it up.

What if there was some kind of flavonoid/terpene development that was related to the leaves? Again..."What if?" Would an increase in yield be preferable to a loss in flavor? I would guess that if you were a large, commercial grow op, then yield would be more important. But a small batch, personal-use grower doesn't necessarily have that same goal. All anyone needs to do is to start scoping the buds on the commercial market. The trichomes are clear and the flavor is lacking. Coincidence? I don't think so. The buds look good from a distance. They are big and dense for sure. But I have to almost climb into the jars ti get any smell from them! I think it's a matter of the industry needing to meet a quota by harvesting plants before they go through a proper ripening stage.

People might be able to "prove" that defoliation increases yield, but I don't think yield should be the goal for most of us. I hear a lot of complaints from us older guys that the new weed just isn't as tasty as the older strains were. (I completely agree, btw!) I wonder if that might have something to do with the new standard that we have been introduced to via the industry.

Maybe we can improve upon flavors and terpenes by simply by applying small-batch grow standards and allowing the plants to do their thing in their own time...? I dunno...but that's what I'm going to focus on for awhile.
Click to expand...
I can assure you that leaving leaves on doesn't improve terpene production. I've seen these tests done through R&D. I'm a firm believer in the proper curing technique to preserve terpenes.

You would be surprised at how many of us came from small batch home grow backgrounds. I 100% took my knowledge of growing small batch cannabis and applied it to the commercial operation.

These practices aren't necessarily a new standard. Legitimate Licensed Producers that care about over all bud quality, know that big buds are not the number one factor in quality cannabis. If you want to produce unique tepene profiles adding the sun to the equation is a game changer.
 
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Frost Spectre

Frost Spectre

Member
Rdubz said:
Them nanners man gotta love em ! What are the genetics if I don’t mind me asking and have u found indica dom strains to be more resistant to defoliation , ....very good points on knowing how far u can go with a strain!
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When they are in a few thousand plants it gets pretty ugly lol. The only thing I can tell you is that this was IBL landrace cross. It's a shame because the terpene profile was really unique on this one. She had absolutely massive leaves that were overlapping so we didn't have a choice... We had to defoliate her hard.
 
F

F32

Member
I agree with Frost 100%. I pick all my strains carefully. Some beans/strains don't make it to production and the ones that do make it go thru a lengthy pheno hunt. Like a <1% keeper ratio 1/100. Must find the correct strain and pheno that works with how I grow. Defoliating is part of my process so the plants must work with it or its gone. And yes high calxes to leaf ratio strains work best for me. Totally agree
 
Frost Spectre

Frost Spectre

Member
F32 said:
I agree with Frost 100%. I pick all my strains carefully. Some beans/strains don't make it to production and the ones that do make it go thru a lengthy pheno hunt. Like a <1% keeper ratio 1/100. Must find the correct strain and pheno that works with how I grow. Defoliating is part of my process so the plants must work with it or its gone. And yes high calxes to leaf ratio strains work best for me. Totally agree
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Sounds like you know what you're doing. I know some guys that pop 500 plus beans when hunting for something unique in a F2 line. Usually they select one or two keepers....

I'm a firm believer in the local clone trade community to aquire high quality cuts. Some people don't have the space or money to do large pheno hunts. Working together is essential at finding those kick ass cuts. Splitting large seed orders with friends is a good way at finding something legitimate too.
 
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