What yields more? Penetration vs Coverage

Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
xIPhobiaIx said:
Right, age old question of many smaller lights vs bigger coverage lights. My thoughts would be the better ppfd spread would come from multiple smaller lights but there are LEDs now such as the Photontek 1000w CO2 light that have amazing high ppfd coverage. Just the expense vs cheaper COB's etc. might not make sense. Hell there are now LEDs where the bars can rotate to provide the spread needed.
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I don't rate high W led units, on a small fixed panel or frame. They take on the downsides of most hps set-ups but even worse given led efficiency, intensity hot spots. Backing the high powered light off reduces heat/light stress but then reduces intensity toward the footprint edges ( you may see darker green leaves there, that's the clue). Putting them closer fries the quality of half the crop and can even lower over all intensity, same problem with most hps styles.

Multiple units can also cover more scrog space at a higher over all intensity. Lets say compare a small frame 1k single led unit in a 3x10, and then compare 4x 200W leds over the same space. Even using less W, the spread and light intensity efficiency will just about make the match up a draw, if not in favour of the 4 units. Even in a 5x5, the efficiency of getting more W of light in closer optimal range without light stress will likely tip the scale toward multiple units, along with them catering a lot more to an uneven canopy, that will definitely tip the scale. The only real downside is that more units take more logistics/effort to setup correctly, even down to wire and driver/ballast placements. It's a ball ache, basically.
 
xIPhobiaIx

xIPhobiaIx

Active Member
Flowki said:
I don't rate high W led units, on a small fixed panel or frame. They take on the downsides of most hps set-ups but even worse given led efficiency, intensity hot spots. Backing the high powered light off reduces heat/light stress but then reduces intensity toward the footprint edges ( you may see darker green leaves there, that's the clue). Putting them closer fries the quality of half the crop and can even lower over all intensity, same problem with most hps styles.

Multiple units can also cover more scrog space at a higher over all intensity. Lets say compare a small frame 1k single led unit in a 3x10, and then compare 4x 200W leds over the same space. Even using less W, the spread and light intensity efficiency will just about make the match up a draw, if not in favour of the 4 units. Even in a 5x5, the efficiency of getting more W of light in closer optimal range without light stress will likely tip the scale toward multiple units, along with them catering a lot more to an uneven canopy, that will definitely tip the scale. The only real downside is that more units take more logistics/effort to setup correctly, even down to wire and driver/ballast placements. It's a ball ache, basically.
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Very well said. The idea that with better efficiency of the 4x200s to equal the 1k you have 200w less of electricity usage so a cost savings and 200w less of heat which is roughly 628 BTUs.

Do you prefer the COB style of lights or bar/qb style for the lets say the 4x200 setup?
 
Star Dog

Star Dog

Well-Known Member
xIPhobiaIx said:
Very well said. The idea that with better efficiency of the 4x200s to equal the 1k you have 200w less of electricity usage so a cost savings and 200w less of heat which is roughly 628 BTUs.

Do you prefer the COB style of lights or bar/qb style for the lets say the 4x200 setup?
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If you're open to hid imo it's by far the best bang for your buck $80/100 versus 4x monthly payments of $370.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
xIPhobiaIx said:
Very well said. The idea that with better efficiency of the 4x200s to equal the 1k you have 200w less of electricity usage so a cost savings and 200w less of heat which is roughly 628 BTUs.

Do you prefer the COB style of lights or bar/qb style for the lets say the 4x200 setup?
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Right now I prefer the qb small panel style, they have good panel light spread and flexibility, although as said I would rather had more boards at 200W for my particular space, being the 3x10 example. If I was in a 4x4 I would be looking to get 6x 100W boards in rows of 3, to ensure even max intensity around the entire footprint edges. For 5x5 I dunno, something around 6x 150w boards in a similar layout. On a larger scale I think it would be wiser for sanity to step upto 400W units, rather than messing around with 15x 200W units.
 
xIPhobiaIx

xIPhobiaIx

Active Member
Flowki said:
Right now I prefer the qb small panel style, they have good panel light spread and flexibility, although as said I would rather had more boards at 200W for my particular space, being the 3x10 example. If I was in a 4x4 I would be looking to get 6x 100W boards in rows of 3, to ensure even max intensity around the entire footprint edges. For 5x5 I dunno, something around 6x 150w boards in a similar layout. On a larger scale I think it would be wiser for sanity to step upto 400W units, rather than messing around with 15x 200W units.
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I have a 13x8 sqft space and was thinking the same thing. I already have a good light setup but when time to upgrade was thinking more light units than just 6. Possibly 8-12. At 12 each light would be covering a 2x4 space.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
xIPhobiaIx said:
I have a 13x8 sqft space and was thinking the same thing. I already have a good light setup but when time to upgrade was thinking more light units than just 6. Possibly 8-12. At 12 each light would be covering a 2x4 space.
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Yeah it just depends how much time and motivation you have. More units will be more logistics and micro management, but it should pay off by either allowing slightly less light W for the same yield or increasing yield/quality for the same W. Be it through better spread or better flexibility in uneven canopy's.
 
Alfadog#1

Alfadog#1

Well-Known Member
kwigybo88 said:
Penetration regarding lights is bro science crap. Black dog is overpriced crap as well.
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If you haven't tried/bought it don't crap on it. The main difference Is spectrum regardless of wattage these lights ain't nothing like hps or mh there photogenesis spectrum used is ment for growing plants not stadiums I bought my phytomax-2 1000 at a deal less than what a photontek xt1000watt c02 cost.....what people seem to forget if you grew the same cutting and same regiment everything 100% side by side that's a honest test your opinion is yours but I don't mind getting 2grams per watt without c02 one month of vegtime at 8weeks flowering 9× 5gallon in a 5by5 if the lights were crap ask yourself why do some LP have rooms with 40+ phytomax-2 1000 must be some broscience behind it all20220212_092156.jpg20220212_092058.jpg20220209_061522.jpg20220212_130225.jpg20220212_113855.jpg20220212_132116.jpg20220212_170707.jpg20220212_170653.jpg
 
calvin.m16

calvin.m16

Well-Known Member
Unless you plan to grow with more than 3-4 lights your power bill is not going to be that bad with 1000w HPS and it doesn't seem worth even going the LED route.. Your making a big up front investment with LED to save money later on but also lose yield in most cases.

I own three growers choice ROI 720 and they ended up going into my VEG room and replacing T5s. They work great but the yield in flower was weak compared to 1000w HPS. Easily lost 8-10 ounces per/light using LED even on 800w "boost" mode.

Went back to 1000w DE HPS and continue to average 2-2.5 # per/light.
 
Milky Weed

Milky Weed

Well-Known Member
calvin.m16 said:
Unless you plan to grow with more than 3-4 lights your power bill is not going to be that bad with 1000w HPS and it doesn't seem worth even going the LED route.. Your making a big up front investment with LED to save money later on but also lose yield in most cases.

I own three growers choice ROI 720 and they ended up going into my VEG room and replacing T5s. They work great but the yield in flower was weak compared to 1000w HPS. Easily lost 8-10 ounces per/light using LED even on 800w "boost" mode.

Went back to 1000w DE HPS and continue to average 2-2.5 # per/light.
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I thought most people got a yield increase switching to LED? Maybe the LED was not the correct color temperature for flowering?
 
Redlig

Redlig

Well-Known Member
I love my led and all I have is a MH tsw2000 pulled 1/2 lb from my 2 foot by 3 foot scrog. After that I was sold on making a good canopy
 
bk78

bk78

Well-Known Member
Alfadog#1 said:
If you haven't tried/bought it don't crap on it. The main difference Is spectrum regardless of wattage these lights ain't nothing like hps or mh there photogenesis spectrum used is ment for growing plants not stadiums I bought my phytomax-2 1000 at a deal less than what a photontek xt1000watt c02 cost.....what people seem to forget if you grew the same cutting and same regiment everything 100% side by side that's a honest test your opinion is yours but I don't mind getting 2grams per watt without c02 one month of vegtime at 8weeks flowering 9× 5gallon in a 5by5 if the lights were crap ask yourself why do some LP have rooms with 40+ phytomax-2 1000 must be some broscience behind it allView attachment 5086377View attachment 5086378View attachment 5086379View attachment 5086380View attachment 5086381View attachment 5086382View attachment 5086383View attachment 5086384
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Welcome back lol


I Remember your full meltdown you had last time you were here before you were banned.
 
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MidnightSun72

MidnightSun72

Well-Known Member
Alfadog#1 said:
If you haven't tried/bought it don't crap on it. The main difference Is spectrum regardless of wattage these lights ain't nothing like hps or mh there photogenesis spectrum used is ment for growing plants not stadiums I bought my phytomax-2 1000 at a deal less than what a photontek xt1000watt c02 cost.....what people seem to forget if you grew the same cutting and same regiment everything 100% side by side that's a honest test your opinion is yours but I don't mind getting 2grams per watt without c02 one month of vegtime at 8weeks flowering 9× 5gallon in a 5by5 if the lights were crap ask yourself why do some LP have rooms with 40+ phytomax-2 1000 must be some broscience behind it allView attachment 5086377View attachment 5086378View attachment 5086379View attachment 5086380View attachment 5086381View attachment 5086382View attachment 5086383View attachment 5086384
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Lmfao. You aren't pulling 2g per watt on that light.
That light is 1050W. So you got 2.1KG or 4.7lbs from one light. Ha ha ha.


This garbage light makes 1600umol/s. Which a 600W led can do all day. Efficiency isn't everything. But god damn I just feel bad for people spending anywhere near the msrp for that 10 year old led tech. Even 1000W HPS are more efficient than this LeD. So when a "stadium light" puts out more photosynthetic active radiation than a high end LED fixture you got a problem.
 
Offmymeds

Offmymeds

Well-Known Member
MidnightSun72 said:
He means like penetration as a concept doesn't fucking exist.

Light follows the inverse square law. It gets weaker by the square of the distance. Once it hits an object, it reflects. The intensity at the light source and distance will dictate how much light you have before it hits an object and reflects the corresponding wavelength.
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Dr. Bugbee's video has a segment on penetration of light. I think it was blue light, maybe deep red, penetrates deeper because it goes through the leaves whereas the other wavelengths reflect. Today's lights don't have much blue so it's moot really.
 
bk78

bk78

Well-Known Member
Alfadog#1 said:
If you haven't tried/bought it don't crap on it. The main difference Is spectrum regardless of wattage these lights ain't nothing like hps or mh there photogenesis spectrum used is ment for growing plants not stadiums I bought my phytomax-2 1000 at a deal less than what a photontek xt1000watt c02 cost.....what people seem to forget if you grew the same cutting and same regiment everything 100% side by side that's a honest test your opinion is yours but I don't mind getting 2grams per watt without c02 one month of vegtime at 8weeks flowering 9× 5gallon in a 5by5 if the lights were crap ask yourself why do some LP have rooms with 40+ phytomax-2 1000 must be some broscience behind it allView attachment 5086377View attachment 5086378View attachment 5086379View attachment 5086380View attachment 5086381View attachment 5086382View attachment 5086383View attachment 5086384
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So you’re telling me those little baby plants are 5 pounds?
 
MidnightSun72

MidnightSun72

Well-Known Member
Offmymeds said:
Dr. Bugbee's video has a segment on penetration of light. I think it was blue light, maybe deep red, penetrates deeper because it goes through the leaves whereas the other wavelengths reflect. Today's lights don't have much blue so it's moot really.
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He doesn't talk about penetration in the bullshit way light manufactures talk about. He was saying that IR and Green photons penetrate deep into the leaf itself (into the mesophyll) surface compared to other light spectrums.

0FE74A0F-A3FE-47E9-94C7-B5AF57F9EBF3.png
 
Lordhooha

Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
Alfadog#1 said:
If you haven't tried/bought it don't crap on it. The main difference Is spectrum regardless of wattage these lights ain't nothing like hps or mh there photogenesis spectrum used is ment for growing plants not stadiums I bought my phytomax-2 1000 at a deal less than what a photontek xt1000watt c02 cost.....what people seem to forget if you grew the same cutting and same regiment everything 100% side by side that's a honest test your opinion is yours but I don't mind getting 2grams per watt without c02 one month of vegtime at 8weeks flowering 9× 5gallon in a 5by5 if the lights were crap ask yourself why do some LP have rooms with 40+ phytomax-2 1000 must be some broscience behind it allView attachment 5086377View attachment 5086378View attachment 5086379View attachment 5086380View attachment 5086381View attachment 5086382View attachment 5086383View attachment 5086384
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Every commercial op I know thay had blackdog leds has canned them for better lights they're overpriced heavy pieces of shit.
 
calvin.m16

calvin.m16

Well-Known Member
Lordhooha said:
Every commercial op I know thay had blackdog leds has canned them for better lights they're overpriced heavy pieces of shit.
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I think the only "cheap" LED brands worth even messing with is Mars Hydro and Spider Farmer. Growers Choice have been great to me and my plants. I personally bloom under HPS and probably will never switch until I see in person a LED produce better quality weed and a similar yield. Yeah yeah LED can get 2-3 pounds but hows the weed probably Big Bud or some mids.

I think a lot of people buy into the price and hype then are ashamed to admit they fucked up cause they got milked $10,000+ when they could've spent $2,000 on HPS. My buddy says his 680 watt LEDs are pulling 3 pounds per/light dry but I've yet to see it. He just regurgitates shit he heard from the grow shop.
 
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