What do Progressives Contribute to Our Country

ginwilly said:

Without getting into personal details, sorry for your situation, you've been dealt a shitty hand and it will take efforts from you that others don't have to give. In my profession I've seen people deemed "disabled" over broken ankles because they couldn't do their previous job anymore and I've see quadraplegics making bank. I even worked for a man that broke his neck in high school, needed help buttoning shirts so he wore polos, that owned 6 hospitals and 12 nursing homes. I've seen overweight truck drivers be diagnosed with diabetes and start drawing a SSI check. I could lose both legs and still do my job.

As long as you have a working mind (which you obviously have) I can't consider you disabled, just handicapped (although we are not allowed to call it that anymore). Admittedly, labor jobs may be off the table for you but your mind seems to function fine.

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I have epilepsy, the issue merits disabled status and requires medication.....I would elaborate but who cares. Frankly, I would gladly pay double ssi to be as I was. I do contribute voluntarily to several charitable organizations because they wont fire me, I don't have to drive anywhere, and my regular seizures are not problematic. Look, I am not reliable and my medicine would cost me 24000 per year so making bank is slippery. It would be fun to see you in my shoes for a week. It is a private issue and privately I will discuss it. I don't need collective input or grief here.

This fraud as you see diabetics on SSI is an example of the system failing you right?

burgertime2010 said:

I have epilepsy, the issue merits disabled status and requires medication.....I would elaborate but who cares. Frankly, I would gladly pay double ssi to be as I was. I do contribute voluntarily to several charitable organizations because they wont fire me, I don't have to drive anywhere, and my regular seizures are not problematic. Look, I am not reliable and my medicine would cost me 24000 per year so making bank is slippery. It would be fun to see you in my shoes for a week. It is a private issue and privately I will discuss it. I don't need collective input or grief here.

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Didn't mean to judge and I really do empathize with your situation. You deserve the help you get, I'm not saying otherwise and this is not the place to expand on that. I'm just saying you are capable of great things even with your affliction, don't let anyone tell you differently.

I don't want to be in your shoes and am thankful that I'm not. I may not take it as well as you have so I commend you for that. Just saying, we have 70M people in this country now that are considered disabled, I disagree with that premise.

ginwilly said:

Didn't mean to judge and I really do empathize with your situation. You deserve the help you get, I'm not saying otherwise and this is not the place to expand on that. I'm just saying you are capable of great things even with your affliction, don't let anyone tell you differently.

I don't want to be in your shoes and am thankful that I'm not. I may not take it as well as you have so I commend you for that. Just saying, we have 70M people in this country now that are considered disabled, I disagree with that premise.

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First, I do appreciate your kind and supportive words thank you. I disagree with fraud across the board but do not blame the system. Individuals choose to steal taxpayer dollars and should be held responsible. It is not easy to get, so these are committed frauds who abuse this. Fuck these people. I am happy to hear any ideas for keeping them out.....they make me look bad. The people who need help deserve it and I support that idea. Progressive options may include health food only food stamps, so as to prevent future issues and ssi.

Forgive me, I am not seeing why any the issues are unsolvable or problematic to conservatives.

burgertime2010 said:

Forgive me, I am not seeing why any the issues are unsolvable or problematic to conservatives.

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From what I'm understanding, the true constitutional conservatives (social conservatives are a different animal) believe the states are the correct platform for solving issues like this. People in WV have different needs than people in Oregon and a one size fits all solution will not work well for most. I'd much rather have 50 chances at a solution than just one. We emulate success to achieve success in this country so I like our odds better with 50 solutions having a workable outcome than just one big ole central planning solution that concentrates even more power. This is bad.

My personal issues with progressives include the fact that most agree that central planning is the most inefficient way to govern 300 Million people but can't think of another way and they never present solutions that doesn't involve other people's property. It's intellectually lazy.

beenthere said:

Almost all the progressives I know are either unemployed or are working minimum wage jobs.
The majority of them are under 30 yrs old.
Smart phones and social networking seem to be the most important thing in their lives.
Everyone of them think they are entitled to everything.
They want free healthcare, free education and free government handouts.

They all have a lot to say about how our country should be ran, but really, what do they contribute?

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Your entire statement is hyperbole and shows how out of touch you are. Try harder.

burgertime2010 said:

First, I do appreciate your kind and supportive words thank you. I disagree with fraud across the board but do not blame the system. Individuals choose to steal taxpayer dollars and should be held responsible. It is not easy to get, so these are committed frauds who abuse this. Fuck these people. I am happy to hear any ideas for keeping them out.....they make me look bad. The people who need help deserve it and I support that idea. Progressive options may include health food only food stamps, so as to prevent future issues and ssi.

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Sorry to hear about your situation, there's always hope that medical technology will soon give you the chance you need to lead a more productive life.
Just curious, how do you feel about gun control?

ginwilly said:

From what I'm understanding, the true constitutional conservatives (social conservatives are a different animal) believe the states are the correct platform for solving issues like this. People in WV have different needs than people in Oregon and a one size fits all solution will not work well for most. I'd much rather have 50 chances at a solution than just one. We emulate success to achieve success in this country so I like our odds better with 50 solutions having a workable outcome than just one big ole central planning solution that concentrates even more power. This is bad.

My personal issues with progressives include the fact that most agree that central planning is the most inefficient way to govern 300 Million people but can't think of another way and they never present solutions that doesn't involve other people's property. It's intellectually lazy.

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Most times it is not a states rights issue I hear, rather it is a tax burden, entitlement culture, freeloader type rant. Would states handling this issue be better? I don't know. Would it be cheaper? If so, for whom? I support an effective and fair solution. None of the progressive topics are state issues some are social equality, govt reform, federal tax spending on corp. welfare. Taxation inherently is taking property so how do you suggest we avoid that?

beenthere said:

Sorry to hear about your situation, there's always hope that medical technology will soon give you the chance you need to lead a more productive life.
Just curious, how do you feel about gun control?

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Thanks. What about gun control specifically?

beenthere said:

.... but really, what do they contribute?

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Poverty.

Strife.

Insanity.

Dissent.

burgertime2010 said:

Most times it is not a states rights issue I hear, rather it is a tax burden, entitlement culture, freeloader type rant. Would states handling this issue be better? I don't know. Would it be cheaper? If so, for whom? I support an effective and fair solution. None of the progressive topics are state issues some are social equality, govt reform, federal tax spending on corp. welfare. Taxation inherently is taking property so how do you suggest we avoid that?

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Again, you support an effective and fair solution as you deem, not as someone in another state deems. You can look at the people in the Appalachian region as how progressives think. They were refusing welfare but the present administration decided they needed to overcome Mountain Pride and get these people on food stamps. The strategy was to include seeds as well as food to get these people to sign up. So people that were content and independent are now less happy and dependent. I'm not a fan.

If we changed our tax/power structure hierarchy to go from my home, my community, my state, my country instead of the present system that is the exact opposite, I could affect real change individually. As it is now, I can't do shit about what central planners decide is best for me. I can't just move out of a community I'm not happy with when that community is country.

As for my taxes helping someone in Wyoming, how do I know this? How do I know they even needed help? How do we balance the abuse of power when it's all centralized?

burgertime2010 said:

Thanks. What about gun control specifically?

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You don't have to go into specifics, just a short explanation of your stance on the subject will suffice.

ginwilly said:

Again, you support an effective and fair solution as you deem, not as someone in another state deems. You can look at the people in the Appalachian region as how progressives think. They were refusing welfare but the present administration decided they needed to overcome Mountain Pride and get these people on food stamps. The strategy was to include seeds as well as food to get these people to sign up. So people that were content and independent are now less happy and dependent. I'm not a fan.

If we changed our tax/power structure hierarchy to go from my home, my community, my state, my country instead of the present system that is the exact opposite, I could affect real change individually. As it is now, I can't do shit about what central planners decide is best for me. I can't just move out of a community I'm not happy with when that community is country.

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Poor states get poor care it would seem. I see the logic. Hunger and health are not regional issues, they are American issues and a solidarity makes sense personally. The scenario as you describe it is foolish. Unhappy and dependent folks are common among food stamp recipients and reform is needed. The hierarchy reversed will create inequalities based on wealth, like public schools do, for these social programs I cant see it working. I understand that frustration, I am for cutting military spending to aid in this but I don't ever get it. We are only somewhere in America.....you can't escape citezinship. I think it would be mind bending to see the country lay down partisanship and stand together on a single human issue.

beenthere said:

You don't have to go into specifics, just a short explanation of your stance on the subject will suffice.

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I have done a bit of research lately and my stance is changing a bit. It is a huge issue with a lot of nuances. I believe they should be legal and regulated. No automatics, not it public domain, and not without training. Parolees, mentally unstable, history of misuse.....no.

beenthere said:

You don't have to go into specifics, just a short explanation of your stance on the subject will suffice.

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What is your stance? and why?

You are proving my point burger, the people of the appalachia had to be told how poor they were. They were living within their means, growing their own food, raising their own livestock, etc but central planners looked at their situation and deemed they needed help whether they wanted it or not. I can only think this was in attempt to get people dependent (thus, obedient) on their government.

Just to check your understanding of basic economics, what do you think would happen to the poverty rate if min wage was raised to a million a year?

We have painted ourselves into a corner on the defense spending. One side wants to cut entitlements, the other side wants to cut defense. With defense cuts, real people lose jobs and will need entitlements, cutting entitlements means real people suffer. Would love to see overseas defense spending not just cut, but shredded. Cutting spending at home is necessary, but will be very painful and real people will lose good jobs. I really would hate to see defense contracts outsourced too.

I hope I've shown that being conservative doesn't mean I'm a cold hearted bastich that hates everyone so their suffering means nothing to me. I feel like you that we need to help our fellow man. What my career path and life experience has shown me however, is that the more you do for someone, the less he does for himself. To truly fix poverty and suffering, we need to have an honest look at our "war on poverty" and notice that it not only hasn't helped, it's been overall harmful and failure. I'm all for hand-ups, teaching people how to take care of themselves without assistance should be our goal, not hand outs where we teach people how to "get" care for themselves.

The military is a jobs program. A defense contractor making things that are unnecessary is waste. The amount of production far exceed the demand.... no exceptions to pragmatism. I am not a stubborn man, I just want to hear solutions from everywhere. People need help and we can do it. The defense inventory is beyond adequate, can we look at this from a more human angle. I respect your politics, I just feel that peoples politics change when they see both sides through a person. Minimal suffering is ideal...but I don't want to waste money on tanks that will never be used. It is very tricky and I just get confused when the right does not see the military as govt spending and argues jobs rather than real needs to validate waste.

burgertime2010 said:

The military is a jobs program. A defense contractor making things that are unnecessary is waste. The amount of production far exceed the demand.... no exceptions to pragmatism. I am not a stubborn man, I just want to hear solutions from everywhere. People need help and we can do it. The defense inventory is beyond adequate, can we look at this from a more human angle.

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The human angle I presented was the hundreds of thousands of real lives of contractors that would fall into the category of needing help. We have many government positions that entail watching other people, let's get rid of those too. We have government agencies that overlap doing the same things, there is 23 departments (or something like that) that involve distribution of welfare.

Private businesses like the autos and communities that follow progressive models like Detroit and Stockton have shown us these policies are unsustainable. Taking from productive members to give to non-productive has a perverse reaction of disincentivizing production and incentivizing a lack of production. When I'm living off of assistance that I will lose if I start to earn my own keep, I have to weigh the economical factors to figure out if I'm better off working or not. That's not right.

Cuts are painful. To correct our course, it's a pain we will have to endure. There are kindler gentler methods that will give us no economic growth for decades and can kicking or there are heartless methods based on logic and numbers that will lead to expansive growth down the road, but pain in the immediate.

I'm for ripping off the band-aid, but I'm in the minority.

ginwilly said:

The human angle I presented was the hundreds of thousands of real lives of contractors that would fall into the category of needing help. We have many government positions that entail watching other people, let's get rid of those too. We have government agencies that overlap doing the same things, there is 23 departments (or something like that) that involve distribution of welfare.

Private businesses like the autos and communities that follow progressive models like Detroit and Stockton have shown us these policies are unsustainable. Taking from productive members to give to non-productive has a perverse reaction of disincentivizing production and incentivizing a lack of production. When I'm living off of assistance that I will lose if I start to earn my own keep, I have to weigh the economical factors to figure out if I'm better off working or not. That's not right.

Cuts are painful. To correct our course, it's a pain we will have to endure. There are kindler gentler methods that will give us no economic growth for decades and can kicking or there are heartless methods based on logic and numbers that will lead to expansive growth down the road, but pain in the immediate.

I'm for ripping off the band-aid, but I'm in the minority.

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I am not of the belief that disabled people are non-productive, some are, but I have a M.A. and worked my heart and mind until I could no more. It is commonly dismissed as such and is pure bullshit. I don't know enough to argue the nuances but I can see bullshit on both ends. If you want to empower the disabled or poor you must know that reality to be effective. It is ripe for a solution.