is that a complete fert or an additive?
Uncle Ben's Gardening Tweeks and Pointers
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
- Start date
I'm totally confused. I know chemical isn't a bad thing. I use a lot of one chemical that is not even organic. It is called H2O or water. I also know some organic chemicals or even 'natural items' can kill.
If I use worm poop from worms that at alfalfa and banana peels does it contain salts? If so do the banana peels have salts in them? I thought that salts are just one way to deliver nutrients.
I've read that the nutes in compost are not soluble and are not readily available for the plant and that bacteria break them down to make them available so before that happens they can't get washed out.
is this not the way it works? do the bacteria turn the leaves and stuff into salts?
I was told that if you use salt based nutes they harm the bacteria by drying them out. Is there any truth to this?
My organic grow doesn't display salt build up like my hydro does.
mine are form the 99 cent store. it is funny, the box says shammy then it has the word wow in big letters, so when you first see it you think of the other product...I like the use of Shamwows as a capillary mat. I looked into them once since a place near me sells the real mats, but I dont think they were cheap, nor are they really necessary. If you're ever in the spot you need to water from the bottom you've either waited too long to water, or your one of those tards who think the medium needs to completely dry out between waterings.
I used to be the type of tard who dried my plants out before watering... I'm not doing this anymore. I just don't want to overwater. I use a meter but am trying to learn to observe the plant more and feel the weight. So far so good.
I'm really new to soil. I come from a rockwool back ground.
I'm using a soil from a guy named Sub
it is
You cannot grow plants directly in this super concentrate!
6 Bags Roots soil or equivalent high quality supped up grow soil
Note**I am trying a new product made by a local company that contains less fir bark called Harvest Moon
25 pounds Pure Worm Castings
½ cup Azomite trace minerals
2/3 Cup Sweet Lime IE Dolomite
1 Kilo Bone meal / IE 5 Pounds
1 Kilo Blood meal ( I use a bit more bone than Blood in this recipe)
1 Kilo Bat Guano bloom formula preferably Fruit bats
3/4 cup Epson Salts
The Perlite and Coco I happen to have and it will make a better mix but it is not necessary.
I veg in potting soil... then transplant to a pot 1/4 - 1/2 (depends on strain) super soil then a layer of potting soil, then the plant and fill with potting soil. I only give water or bubbled worm compost.
I also have some straight coco/perlite mix and use canna A and B.
I'm learning something new everyday and really excited to be soon moving all my stuff to soil and not have to touch rock wool again.
DaveCoulier
Well-Known Member
Did you know Ammoniacal Nitrogen is actually broken down by microbes in the soil into Nitrate Nitrogen(a form of nitrogen plants prefer), yet AN is in pretty much every fertilizer out there. Seems to me the microbes are doing just fine when dealing with Synthetic ferts.
If you can run rockwool and not suffocate your roots, you shouldn't have much problem with soil.
Seen the soil by subs. He's got his own subforum here or two
.This is all I have time for now. Heading to work.
News to me, I think I've been brainwashed by organiz Nazis
I hear this a lot: "Synthetic ferts sterilize the soil and you you must continue to use them because the soil is dead"
If microbes break down NH3-N then it seems like the more accurate thing to say would be that *overuse* of salts can kill soil microbes (the same way the overuse can kill root hairs and plants in general...)
OK, so now that I have less fear of salts sterilizing my soil. When the salt gives up its ion it leaves something in the soil that can't be used and needs to be flushed, to the ocean eventually, right? That is OK with me if that is the case. Just out of curiosity, does the nitrogen in leaves leave residue that must be flushed? I see people who say they use no salts and they don't have run off and don't seem to get salt build up.
Huh? Have you ever used rockwool? you can soak it every hour and in minutes it is back to a aerated state. I used to water 30 seconds every hour. Now I water like 20 seconds every 2 hours.
DaveCoulier
Well-Known Member
You can't feed your plants without "salts". The person who said they use no salts is Im sure an organic user, but it all gets broken down to the same thing in the end, and the plants could care less where it came from. The reason the person probably didn't seem to get salt build up is because of the slow release of dry organic ferts. It can take months for them to be broken down, so you end up with less build up. I haven't looked much into liquid organic ferts, so I dont quite know how quick the break down is.
Im not sure what you mean by nitrogen residue in leaves. You'll have to expand on that for me.
Ive never used it, but it seems to be a pretty common problem of suffocating roots by people who use it when they first transplant clones. If your not having these problems perhaps your plants are larger with well developed roots.
https://www.rollitup.org/3715194-post62.html
I mean for veg and flower it is 'impossible' to over water they say, I've pretty much seen this as the case.
When you have a tiny clone cube it doesn't behave the same as the larger cubes, it holds more water.
Rockwool works great from my observations, it is how I learned to grow, but I don't like having to throw it away and/or touch it. I see that soil works great, too, and I can reuse it and it doesn't hurt me to touch it.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Certain salts flush easily, some don't. It's an ion thingie. The soil particle has one charge, the salt another. Ammonical salts such as ammonium phosphate will not leech like potassium nitrate. I wouldn't worry about it, the use of say....Jack's Classics or Schultz is not gonna kill the microbial colony.
Dave, if you're lurking, I recently talked to a hort guru, a doctorate, about myco populations and without going into alot of detail, he said that the only way you're gonna kill this population (at least in native outdoor soil) is by sterilizing it with something like Vapam, a gaseous soil sterilant used to kill nematodes. My question to him was, "so I'm wasting my money on myco products?" His reply was positive.
As an aside, I turned in alot of compost/manure into a small section of my garden yesterday to plant some winter/spring crops. The sight of lots of earthworms was sho purty!
UB
Dave, if you're lurking, I recently talked to a hort guru, a doctorate, about myco populations and without going into alot of detail, he said that the only way you're gonna kill this population (at least in native outdoor soil) is by sterilizing it with something like Vapam, a gaseous soil sterilant used to kill nematodes. My question to him was, "so I'm wasting my money on myco products?" His reply was positive.
As an aside, I turned in alot of compost/manure into a small section of my garden yesterday to plant some winter/spring crops. The sight of lots of earthworms was sho purty!
UB
riddleme
Well-Known Member
Hey UB
I want to thank you one more time as I harvested the top buds this morning (letting the bottom finish up)
I got 92.4 grams wet (so far) with 97 watts of light
(in spite of a few problems)
Only nutes used were Jack's Classic and DynaGro
More pics & info in my Goin Loco Journal, including a premature smoke report on a popcorn bud
The info in your threads was absolutely on spot, thank you my friend!
I want to thank you one more time as I harvested the top buds this morning (letting the bottom finish up)
I got 92.4 grams wet (so far) with 97 watts of light
(in spite of a few problems)
Only nutes used were Jack's Classic and DynaGro
More pics & info in my Goin Loco Journal, including a premature smoke report on a popcorn bud
The info in your threads was absolutely on spot, thank you my friend!
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the kind words, am so happy it worked out.Hey UB
I want to thank you one more time as I harvested the top buds this morning (letting the bottom finish up)
I got 92.4 grams wet (so far) with 97 watts of light
(in spite of a few problems)
Only nutes used were Jack's Classic and DynaGro
More pics & info in my Goin Loco Journal, including a premature smoke report on a popcorn bud
The info in your threads was absolutely on spot, thank you my friend!
Happy harvest,
UB
kineticz06
Active Member
Hey there Uncle Ben,
I was told you may be able to help me. I am in my 3rd lowryder 2 grow (auto flowering strain) and im running into an issue with one of my plants. About a week ago it started rapidly yellowing on the larger lower fan leaves, and is now spreading through out all the the leaves (especially on the tips). I also noticed in the last 48 hours a few leaves began to turn blue. None of the other plants that I have going (same strain) are doing this, and I have not done anything defferent with any of them. PH is good, and my last watering I used just water and went a little heavy thinking there may be some salt buildup from the nutes. Ill attach some pics, hopefully you can give me some ideas!
I was told you may be able to help me. I am in my 3rd lowryder 2 grow (auto flowering strain) and im running into an issue with one of my plants. About a week ago it started rapidly yellowing on the larger lower fan leaves, and is now spreading through out all the the leaves (especially on the tips). I also noticed in the last 48 hours a few leaves began to turn blue. None of the other plants that I have going (same strain) are doing this, and I have not done anything defferent with any of them. PH is good, and my last watering I used just water and went a little heavy thinking there may be some salt buildup from the nutes. Ill attach some pics, hopefully you can give me some ideas!
Attachments
M
mikegreenthumb
Guest
that shit is normal prob just different pheno just my opinion maybe a lil premature leaf drop but nothing out of ordanary at all to me
DaveCoulier
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear he agreed. I was reading a couple of posts by Tapla and Justaguy at gardenweb that had to do with CEC in container media, and it gave me an epiphany regarding Myco and indoor container gardening.Certain salts flush easily, some don't. It's an ion thingie. The soil particle has one charge, the salt another. Ammonical salts such as ammonium phosphate will not leech like potassium nitrate. I wouldn't worry about it, the use of say....Jack's Classics or Schultz is not gonna kill the microbial colony.
Dave, if you're lurking, I recently talked to a hort guru, a doctorate, about myco populations and without going into alot of detail, he said that the only way you're gonna kill this population (at least in native outdoor soil) is by sterilizing it with something like Vapam, a gaseous soil sterilant used to kill nematodes. My question to him was, "so I'm wasting my money on myco products?" His reply was positive.
As an aside, I turned in alot of compost/manure into a small section of my garden yesterday to plant some winter/spring crops. The sight of lots of earthworms was sho purty!
UB
CEC isn't extremely important in indoors container gardening because WE control how much nutrients are leached from the soil via watering. WE control how much food our plants receive, so having a high CEC isn't really important, and then the light bulb went off in my head.
Its the same thing about Myco. Myco help uptake nutrients and water, yet those are two things WE all control indoors. Myco perform best in nutrient poor soils OUTDOORS. Obviously thats not the case for us indoors, so its just a waste of money to invest in them.
Its so easy to be blinded to our common sense when were all searching for the best ways to improve our grow. Sometimes we just need to stop and think.
why do you say "salts" in quotes?
just to clarify, I mean : A salt can also be defined as an ionic compound which dissociates forming a positive ion other than hydrogen ion and a negative ion other than hydroxyl ion is called a salt.
from: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt
Plants don't eat salt, they eat ions, right? I know that a salt can give this.
Aren't there other sources of ions? That is my question.
I mean residue on the pots.
I've seen some plants seem to look like dwarfs, they are like miniatures. Not very common.
DaveCoulier
Well-Known Member
http://www.ipni.net/ppiweb/agbrief.nsf/5a4b8be72a35cd46852568d9001a18da/c10feca0a9a92c0485256d3500516f5c!OpenDocument
You confused me even more talking about residue on the pots. Im totally lost now.
I mean salt deposits. It is everyone in my salt based hydro set up and I've seen it on pots where salts are used.
I know people who grow in boxes with no drainage at all, they tell me that there is never salt buildup because they don't use anything but RO water and compost.
Will they get salt buildup? If so, it appears to be very slow and the plants are growing fine so it doesn't seem like they are being underfed.
just to be clear, I'm not promoting organic or saying anything bad about salts, just looking to know a bit more...
I found a big bag of salts at my dad's and told him this is like poison, it will ruin the ground. This was about 2 months ago. Now I am glad I didn't do something stupid and throw it out. I actually now plan to use it in moderation, so I am changing my views, just want to learn what is really going on.
In the link you posted it says this:
Manures and composts contain inorganic salts, organic salts, and insoluble organic forms of nutrients. But their salt content per unit of nutrient may not differ much from fertilizer, since their nutrient content is a lot lower, and they contain salts not necessarily needed for the crop. Also, as they decompose, the nutrients turn into salts.
This is part of my answer... It says that composts and organic materials eventually become salts. Like you first had said.
my question is do organics leave less residue or spent salts behind?
Just checking my understanding, can you confirm this statement?
When a salt is in the right environment (correct pH) it gives off an ion to the root, right? the ion is replaced with Hydrogen then then new (not fert) salt is useless to the plant and needs to be flushed.
Manures and composts contain inorganic salts, organic salts, and insoluble organic forms of nutrients. But their salt content per unit of nutrient may not differ much from fertilizer, since their nutrient content is a lot lower, and they contain salts not necessarily needed for the crop. Also, as they decompose, the nutrients turn into salts.
This is part of my answer... It says that composts and organic materials eventually become salts. Like you first had said.
my question is do organics leave less residue or spent salts behind?
Just checking my understanding, can you confirm this statement?
When a salt is in the right environment (correct pH) it gives off an ion to the root, right? the ion is replaced with Hydrogen then then new (not fert) salt is useless to the plant and needs to be flushed.
I use smart pots if that matters (quicker drying)
If I plan to flower in five gallon pots, what should I veg in and do I need more than one transplant?
I have some 1 gallon and 2 gallon pots. It seems that going from 2 to 5 would be better than 1 to 5. Is there a good ratio to use for this?
Would it be best to go 1,2, 5? or even buy a different size to be in the middle for 3 transplants?
If I plan to flower in five gallon pots, what should I veg in and do I need more than one transplant?
I have some 1 gallon and 2 gallon pots. It seems that going from 2 to 5 would be better than 1 to 5. Is there a good ratio to use for this?
Would it be best to go 1,2, 5? or even buy a different size to be in the middle for 3 transplants?