The Junk Drawer

DIY-HP-LED said:

I posted it to show that there are competing theories and some of the more speculative ones involve quantum mechanics. The article offers an overview of the field, and you can place me in the connectionist camp.

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The Philosopher Wins: There’s No Consciousness Spot in the Brain

As dualist neurosurgeon Michael Egnor notes, human consciousness is immaterial by nature. Is the Koch-Chalmers bet a language game aimed at avoiding that fact?

mindmatters.ai

DIY-HP-LED said:

Perhaps they should name the D factor for Donald since he seems to have all of them.

Scientists Have Found The Driving Force Behind Your Darkest Impulses

Psychologists call it the dark triad: an intersection of three of the most malevolent tendencies of human nature – psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism.

www.sciencealert.com

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Fogdog said:

The "evidence" I posted regarding out of body experiences is flimsy. It's held up to scrutiny but it's not very helpful toward understanding what consciousness is. I try to hinge my posts on what can be proven. The problem with discussing free will or consciousness is our theories up to now don't hold up to scrutiny. We only know what it is not. Unlike the story that a woman gave, a woman who is and has been blind from birth but accurately described the room she was in and doctor who was treating her when she was near death, people's posts about neural networks some day becoming conscious are based upon pure speculation. There is not even one shred of even flimsy evidence that this is true.

We have no idea what consciousness is or where it resides. Or how it does what it does. Its not that there aren't good scientists working on the problem and churning out papers and earning worthy PhDs on the subject. You aren't citing bullshit that you made up. You are citing somebody else's bullshit. "If true then" lmfao

The Philosopher Wins: There’s No Consciousness Spot in the Brain

As dualist neurosurgeon Michael Egnor notes, human consciousness is immaterial by nature. Is the Koch-Chalmers bet a language game aimed at avoiding that fact?

mindmatters.ai

Back in 1998, premier neuroscientist Christof Koch had wagered philosopher of mind David Chalmers a case of fine wine that within the next twenty-five years, a specific “signature of consciousness” would be found in the brain. In 2018, Swedish journalist Per Snaprud reminded the world of that fact at New Scientist. With five years to run, a countdown of sorts began. Snaprud’s article was titled “Consciousness: How we’re solving a mystery bigger than our minds,” telling readers that “we’re uncovering clues.”

But you know what, friends and neighbors? The mystery is bigger than experts in information science experts thought. The philosopher won a case of wine because after 25 years, both agreed that:

So there is no known signature of human consciousness in the brain. We all sense that we are conscious but that sense is not located in any one place or current.

The wagerers were well matched. Koch (pictured), from the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle, is the leading proponent of Integrated Information Theory (IIT), which he admits is panpsychist (all life and perhaps even non-life is conscious to some extent).

Chalmers, co-director of the Center for Mind, Brain and Consciousness at New York University, originated the term “Hard Problem of Consciousness.” He told Robert Lawrence Kuhn at Closer to Truth that he accepts dualism (the human mind is immaterial) though he does not believe in an immortal soul:

"The human mind is immaterial" when it comes to consciousness. Chew on that for a minute. I can't even say what that means except that its not going to make anybody a billion dollars any time soon. Neural networks my ass. We can't even say what it is they are going to replicate.

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Fogdog said:

Putin practically drips dark triad. Not surprised that Trump, who is to Putin as Wrenfield is to Dracula, mimics the same syndrome as his master.

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DIY-HP-LED said:

This is just a general discussion of a complex scientific and philosophical issue(s). Science depends on objective quantifiable and qualifiable evidence. People have extolled the virtues of meditation for a long time, but it is only when scientists produced objective evidence with MRI, PET scanners and high-resolution EEGs that it was taken seriously. However, theory and speculation have their place at the edge of knowledge too. I'm skeptical of quantum involvement in neural processes and think connectionist theories fit the existing data better and can account for the objectively observed mental phenomena. Humans are not unique, lots of creatures have brains, many of them complex, but they are not as uniquely social as humans with language culture and resulting technology.

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Fogdog said:

would appreciate a link on that.

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DIY-HP-LED said:

This is just a general discussion of a complex scientific and philosophical issue(s). Science depends on objective quantifiable and qualifiable evidence. People have extolled the virtues of meditation for a long time, but it is only when scientists produced objective evidence with MRI, PET scanners and high-resolution EEGs that it was taken seriously. However, theory and speculation have their place at the edge of knowledge too. I'm skeptical of quantum involvement in neural processes and think connectionist theories fit the existing data better and can account for the objectively observed mental phenomena. Humans are not unique, lots of creatures have brains, many of them complex, but they are not as uniquely social as humans with language culture and resulting technology.

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cannabineer said:

The question that unsettles me is: how much do culture and technology really matter?

We as a species are proud of both, and we use our possession of both to claim that we are Special. Many nonscientists believe we should not be classed with animals, an attitude that was so pervasive when I was young that it required an act of effort for me to abandon it.

Stripped of a self-referent exclusivism that had roots in religion, the obviousness of culture and tech being a watershed is no longer so assured. In fact, our capacity for coordinated delusion suggests to me that we are actually presapient. (Like termites with more complex communication and a fancy world-spanning mound.)

It’s not a fully-developed idea, and even bringing my full imagination to bear, I cannot picture the next step or the way toward it. It might be confirmation bias of some sort to say it fits with my sorta-hypothesis that we are still in an early transition state away from “the animal condition” of operating on heritable instinct.

Even that still-widespread idea of animals vs. us shows cracks. Young mammal predators must learn how to effectively hunt, a thing taught by their mothers or packmates. Some birds and mammals have definite cultures in which techniques and stories about dangers experienced generations ago by those long dead are passed onto the young.

We’re not that special. The principal thing we have is a matter of scale, not of kind.

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CCGNZ said:

Just google "US security level Majestic" and then click on "Security Clearance Organization Chart", this info has been out there for yrs.,I'd seen it before and didn't remember anything other than "majestic" was at the top,I'd known and at first was blown away that of a sitting Pres.was only half way up the list. Since Pres. come and go there has to be a higher level keeper of secrets but 21 positions above is mindblowing.

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List of U.S. security clearance terms - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Majestic 12 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Security Clearances - United States Department of State

backtotop The Background Investigation Process National Security Adjudicative Guidelines Interim Determination Reinvestigation Continuous Evaluation Program FAQs Contact Us The Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) conducts personnel security background investigations for the Department of State and...

www.state.gov

Majestic 12 security clearances

The Majestic 12 security clearances are various ranks that members of Majestic 12 can acquire. These ranks allow the person access to a certain amount of classified information, with more information being disclosed to them as their rank increases. After Majestic 12 broke away from the...

deusex.fandom.com

printer said:

How about links? We all do them to get on the same page. I see a number of links I can click on with the first terms.

List of U.S. security clearance terms - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Majestic 12 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://vault.fbi.gov/Majestic%2012

Security Clearances - United States Department of State

backtotop The Background Investigation Process National Security Adjudicative Guidelines Interim Determination Reinvestigation Continuous Evaluation Program FAQs Contact Us The Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) conducts personnel security background investigations for the Department of State and...

www.state.gov

Majestic 12 security clearances

The Majestic 12 security clearances are various ranks that members of Majestic 12 can acquire. These ranks allow the person access to a certain amount of classified information, with more information being disclosed to them as their rank increases. After Majestic 12 broke away from the...

deusex.fandom.com

found it,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/ORG_Chart.pdf

OK, where is this from? There is no links or reference where this originated. Could even have been me!

Click to expand...

printer said:

Majestic 12 security clearances
The Majestic 12 security clearances are various ranks that members of Majestic 12 can acquire. These ranks allow the person access to a certain amount of classified information, with more information being disclosed to them as their rank increases.

Background
After Majestic 12 broke away from the Illuminati, Bob Page decided to replace the Illuminati's "Degrees of Illuminism" with a hierarchy of security clearances. While the Degrees of Illuminism were apparently based in mysticism and religious symbolism, and seemed to be modeled on the Allied Masonic Degrees of the Freemasons, Page implemented a standardized, secular system that could be used throughout MJ12. UNATCO, in particular, uses Majestic 12's security clearances, since the Coalition is effectively MJ12's military branch; most of its personnel are unaware of their true employer, or even that it exists.

Ironically, as Stanton Dowd comments, Page's names for these new, secular security clearances came from Christian theology. Specifically, MJ12's clearances correspond directly to the hierarchy of angels established by Thomas Aquinas, a personal icon to Page. The security clearances provide an incentive for MJ12 members to remain loyal to the organization. Recruits know that if they perform well, they will be rewarded with advancements "through the layers of secrecy".

Structure
Although it is clear that the names of the security clearances are based on Aquinas' angelic hierarchy, not all of the clearance levels are named in Deus Ex. The column on the left shows the ranks mentioned in the game, while the one on the right fills the unknown with speculation based on Aquinas' hierarchy and examples seen in-game.

Ranking	Clearances appearing in Deus Ex	Full list of clearances
Tier 1	Angel/0A	Angel/0A
Tier 2	Archangel/1B	Archangel/1B
Tier 3	Principal/2C	Principal/2C
Tier 4	omitted	Power/3D
Tier 5	omitted	Virtue/4E
Tier 6	Domination/5F	Domination/5F
Tier 7	Throne/6G	Throne/6G
Tier 8	omitted	Cherubic/7H or Cherubic/7W
Tier 9	Seraphic/8X	Seraphic/8X
Tier 10	God	God

Clearance-restricted information


Knowledge of many projects carried out by MJ12, and by extension UNATCO, is strictly reserved to those with an appropriate security clearance. One such example of this is Project Dibbuk, which developed a stealth helicopter to be used during covert Majestic 12 operations. As outlined in the books on the project, it is restricted to those with Domination/5F clearance or higher. The end product of this project was the SH-187 stealth helicopter. Similarly, knowledge of the killswitches in mechanically augmented agents of UNATCO is divulged only to those with at least Throne/6G clearance. As Jaime Reyes does not have this clearance, he is promptly informed that he is not permitted access to information concerning the killswitch mechanism.

Data related to nano-augmentations is not widely distributed by MJ12; even JC Denton is refused information about his own augmentations as his clearance is not high enough. In the Liberty Island MJ12 lab, access to augmentation canisters is given only to authorized personnel with Domination/5F clearance. Knowledge of nano-augmented agents' killswitches, like those of their mechanically augmented colleagues, is also clearance-restricted. The existence of the killswitch is known by a very few people, including Joseph Manderley, Walton Simons and later, Jaime Reyes. According to Paul Denton, a person must have God clearance to know about the mechanism of the killswitch. However, it appears that Reyes is eventually granted knowledge of how it works as Simons asks him to evaluate the functionality of JC's killswitch.

Most MJ12 facilities are accessible only to those with a high enough clearance. These include the Majestic 12 facility in the sewers of Hell's Kitchen, the VersaLife labs in Hong Kong, and Area 51. Area 51, and more specifically, Sector 4, is described as a Seraphic/8X facility. This makes it the most exclusive MJ12 facility as far as security clearances are concerned. This isn't surprising, as Sector 4 houses some of Majestic 12's most secretive projects such as human cloning, Universal Constructors and the potentially extraterrestrial blue fusion devices.

Majestic 12 security clearances

The Majestic 12 security clearances are various ranks that members of Majestic 12 can acquire. These ranks allow the person access to a certain amount of classified information, with more information being disclosed to them as their rank increases. After Majestic 12 broke away from the...

deusex.fandom.com

Click to expand...

printer said:

Majestic 12 security clearances
The Majestic 12 security clearances are various ranks that members of Majestic 12 can acquire. These ranks allow the person access to a certain amount of classified information, with more information being disclosed to them as their rank increases.

Background
After Majestic 12 broke away from the Illuminati, Bob Page decided to replace the Illuminati's "Degrees of Illuminism" with a hierarchy of security clearances. While the Degrees of Illuminism were apparently based in mysticism and religious symbolism, and seemed to be modeled on the Allied Masonic Degrees of the Freemasons, Page implemented a standardized, secular system that could be used throughout MJ12. UNATCO, in particular, uses Majestic 12's security clearances, since the Coalition is effectively MJ12's military branch; most of its personnel are unaware of their true employer, or even that it exists.

Ironically, as Stanton Dowd comments, Page's names for these new, secular security clearances came from Christian theology. Specifically, MJ12's clearances correspond directly to the hierarchy of angels established by Thomas Aquinas, a personal icon to Page. The security clearances provide an incentive for MJ12 members to remain loyal to the organization. Recruits know that if they perform well, they will be rewarded with advancements "through the layers of secrecy".

Structure
Although it is clear that the names of the security clearances are based on Aquinas' angelic hierarchy, not all of the clearance levels are named in Deus Ex. The column on the left shows the ranks mentioned in the game, while the one on the right fills the unknown with speculation based on Aquinas' hierarchy and examples seen in-game.

Ranking	Clearances appearing in Deus Ex	Full list of clearances
Tier 1	Angel/0A	Angel/0A
Tier 2	Archangel/1B	Archangel/1B
Tier 3	Principal/2C	Principal/2C
Tier 4	omitted	Power/3D
Tier 5	omitted	Virtue/4E
Tier 6	Domination/5F	Domination/5F
Tier 7	Throne/6G	Throne/6G
Tier 8	omitted	Cherubic/7H or Cherubic/7W
Tier 9	Seraphic/8X	Seraphic/8X
Tier 10	God	God

Clearance-restricted information


Knowledge of many projects carried out by MJ12, and by extension UNATCO, is strictly reserved to those with an appropriate security clearance. One such example of this is Project Dibbuk, which developed a stealth helicopter to be used during covert Majestic 12 operations. As outlined in the books on the project, it is restricted to those with Domination/5F clearance or higher. The end product of this project was the SH-187 stealth helicopter. Similarly, knowledge of the killswitches in mechanically augmented agents of UNATCO is divulged only to those with at least Throne/6G clearance. As Jaime Reyes does not have this clearance, he is promptly informed that he is not permitted access to information concerning the killswitch mechanism.

Data related to nano-augmentations is not widely distributed by MJ12; even JC Denton is refused information about his own augmentations as his clearance is not high enough. In the Liberty Island MJ12 lab, access to augmentation canisters is given only to authorized personnel with Domination/5F clearance. Knowledge of nano-augmented agents' killswitches, like those of their mechanically augmented colleagues, is also clearance-restricted. The existence of the killswitch is known by a very few people, including Joseph Manderley, Walton Simons and later, Jaime Reyes. According to Paul Denton, a person must have God clearance to know about the mechanism of the killswitch. However, it appears that Reyes is eventually granted knowledge of how it works as Simons asks him to evaluate the functionality of JC's killswitch.

Most MJ12 facilities are accessible only to those with a high enough clearance. These include the Majestic 12 facility in the sewers of Hell's Kitchen, the VersaLife labs in Hong Kong, and Area 51. Area 51, and more specifically, Sector 4, is described as a Seraphic/8X facility. This makes it the most exclusive MJ12 facility as far as security clearances are concerned. This isn't surprising, as Sector 4 houses some of Majestic 12's most secretive projects such as human cloning, Universal Constructors and the potentially extraterrestrial blue fusion devices.

Majestic 12 security clearances

The Majestic 12 security clearances are various ranks that members of Majestic 12 can acquire. These ranks allow the person access to a certain amount of classified information, with more information being disclosed to them as their rank increases. After Majestic 12 broke away from the...

deusex.fandom.com

Click to expand...

Fogdog said:

Agreed. When we find ways to define and measure consciousness, we will make progress in understanding it. As with meditation, men of science scoffed at the stories of practitioners. It took time to develop the tools and methods needed to produce objective evidence that confirmed what was already known by people who weren't versed, bound or hampered by the scientific method. Then again, there are many beliefs that prove to be false. The benefits of meditation were hiding among others, like, say, the healing power of crystals. Sorting them out take time. I think what we are discussing are the kinds of data that drives investigations. Some investigations are based on false assumptions. Sometimes, learning enough to disprove a theory gains us the knowledge to propose a better one. To discard an observation because it conflicts with one's sense of what is proper about science would be a waste if it turned out to be true.

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Fogdog said:

That's a video game. "the game follows JC Denton, an agent of the fictional agency United Nations Anti-Terrorist Coalition (UNATCO), who is given superhuman abilities by nanotechnology, as he sets out to combat hostile forces in a world ravaged by inequality and a deadly plague. His missions entangle him in a conspiracy that brings him into conflict with the Triads, Majestic 12, and the Illuminati. "

It actually sounds kind of fun, but I never got past Super Mario Brothers and don't have the time for stuff like that. Maybe when I get older I'll have the time for it. Like maybe when I'm 120.

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DIY-HP-LED said:

This smart lady disposes of quantum mechanics and consciousness pretty quickly and humorously, right down to those microtubular things...

Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics: How are they related?

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printer said:

How about links? We all do them to get on the same page. I see a number of links I can click on with the first terms.

List of U.S. security clearance terms - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Majestic 12 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://vault.fbi.gov/Majestic%2012

Security Clearances - United States Department of State

backtotop The Background Investigation Process National Security Adjudicative Guidelines Interim Determination Reinvestigation Continuous Evaluation Program FAQs Contact Us The Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) conducts personnel security background investigations for the Department of State and...

www.state.gov

Majestic 12 security clearances

The Majestic 12 security clearances are various ranks that members of Majestic 12 can acquire. These ranks allow the person access to a certain amount of classified information, with more information being disclosed to them as their rank increases. After Majestic 12 broke away from the...

deusex.fandom.com

found it,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/ORG_Chart.pdf

OK, where is this from? There is no links or reference where this originated. Could even have been me!

Click to expand...