LordWinter
New Member
That question would be answered for you if you bothered to read the thread from the beginning, since you cannot, I hope you enjoy being ignored.
Strains and Phenotypes
- Thread starter ColdArmySoldier
- Start date
323cheezy
Well-Known Member
??What ?...No stabalilizing is breeding...... if u want to make a stable seed yes..... but thats not what determines if it is a strain.... you are wrong...
Its not a good analagy cause you dont see people out there cloning dogs...
And plus dogs are mammals.... different rules apply with plants and phenos....
What is interesting tho is that all dogs came from wolfs and were bread by people....
So with your logic all dogs are wolves ....
And a dog cant be a strain its a breed....
A stain is just a word to describe a certian type weed...
What??? Once again your talking about making a stable seed.... a clone is more stable.... and can be a strain ....
Doesnt matter how many times you breed something.....(cross it back or inbreed it)
A clone of your desired strain will be a better representation of the strain ....than someone who finds the common phenotype threw breeding....
Reproduction in no means makes it a strain......
In most cases people willl purchase clones and try to inbreed or cross them back to recreate it...but itll never be as good as the original(clone)...
Thats why there are clone only strains ..cause they cant be stabilzed in seed form ...hence the clone only strain...
What the hell is all this crap....
Surely u realized these concepts are tooken out of context.. and are principles in nature ..
Not joe blow the grower who can clone one mother plant as many times as he wants..
haha...i cant even follow your logic...
The reason there are these so called clone only strains is because inthe medcal community in cali....
Og's and chems became very popular....
Yet no one really knew really the true genetics of these strains... all we know( besides the folktales) is that these strains ,genetics if u will, were avalible and eventually sold threw the black market and clubs seen via clone....but before it was widely recognized people didnt care much for names ... and it was labeled , simply kush or ghani....
See these og's chem were around for some time now .... And they are strains , wether they were initailly phenos at some point...
Held in clone form and spreed throughout the mj med community ....
At this point in time the cuts are evrywhere.. and thats how it works you go to the club and get cuts not seeds....
People dont want to gamble with so called stabilized lines....
You cant argue a stabalized seed is more similar than the actual cut from the actual mother plant...
Its easy ..u get one clone....veg it..... make more clones veg them... and so on....
No one in cali wants a cali connect seeds.... they want the real cut.....
what dont u get????(your logic bein that these clone only strains are strains now since swerve breed them with some afgan father....)
All in all..
Lordwinter your wrong on so many levels...
I just dont see why u need to spread misinformation too people that are interested in breeding...(the only reason breeding is so popular is cause people are trying to recreate those clone only strains)lol
And i dont understand why all these other posters are argreeing with u ... maybe they are just as clueless as you to how it works...
Oddly enuff your point whole point, theory , hypothesesis, what ever scientific word u want to use ...lol
Is based on some law or definition u refrenced from whatever science book or dictionary...(i am clueless..where u got that info lol..)
And u believe this "clone only " label is a mere myth ....to some extent it used to make money , or you believe its just a marketing ploy...
Now i can tell u fersure you wrong... and that yes theyre are clone only strains... and phenos become strains....
But i guess it really depends on what u think a strain is ....
For all i know u could think there are only ten stable strains out there... but in reality there are a thousand strains out there...
Its really quite common sence and i think your getting a little confused with words here...
JohnTheFarmer
Member
323cheezy, I'll take my degree in biology over your horribly typed and incoherent response.
Good day.
Good day.
bud nugbong
Well-Known Member
backcrossing has alot to do with stabalizing a strain. when you have a seedling you really like and has the characteristics you like. you either mate the best looking male (hard to tell if it will produce good smoke) or take a really good looking female and spray w/ hormones to turn male and then backcross w/its mother to stabalize it. It sounds very unnatural to me and i dont think you do that with dogs, but thats how its done w/ plants.
JohnTheFarmer
Member
In terms of the dog analogy, the general principles of genetics and breeding are universal. While breeding a strain (ie a new breed) of dog, the male you breed with becomes closer genetically as selective breeding continues through successive generations.
This is also true w plant genetics.
This is also true w plant genetics.
323cheezy
Well-Known Member
LOL.... great comeback bro.... (please!)
U have yet to even show that u can understand what a strain is.... go back to college.....lol
Your opinion on this matter is just confusing people ... and you need to stop..
You cant even respond to anything ive mentioned.... if u have a degree (AA) lol.... you should be able to explain it better ...
because you guys havnt proved anything ....
and are just talking out your ass.....
tinyTURTLE
Well-Known Member
http://www.420-greenkingdom.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b=GTTT,v=print,m=1094084925,a=2
it is a long read, but a very good explanation.
it is a long read, but a very good explanation.
323cheezy
Well-Known Member
Yes but this has nothing to do with making a strain.....U seem to be confused as does winter....
Not that your wrong u just are talking about two different things....
The question being .....
A strain is just a name to help people identify certian type of cannabis ...(cause people would get confused)
This certian type of cannabis having certian characteristics....
Distinguished through flavor , scent, growth pattern, medicinal effects....
Now many strains can be very similar .... after all some of them, just crosses of two different strains...
Or some are just share similar genetics..
For instance there are usually about 5 or 6 types of og kush on the counter...at my local shop
And there all different in most cases...
Seeing as there are 8 collectives (in the neighborhood i live...1 mile radius) ...and practically hundreads all over town ...
I have access to about id say 100 types of just og kush ... and yes there mostly clone only strains ....You guessed it lol!!!
Believe it or not .... they are all different(more like 20 really stick out...) and share similar characteristics ..but u can diffenetly see the differences in each variety....
Maybe u have no acces to meds in a legal verified community .... that is flooding wih new strains coming out every day .....
These are regulated shops and they sell flowers from vendors who have access to these clone only strains....
So to answer your question..."when do breeders consider a phenotype that is completely different from the parent a new strain?"
There is really no general rule ...once you have the distinguishable characteristics your looking for and have a mother of this plant ...
This could take years of weeding out characteristics...or just happen by chance ...you find an interesting pheno that is unique try to stabilize it.....
I have heard that bubba is just a pheno of afgan kush...
And bubble gum being origionally a pheno of bubba...
....
These imo can be considered strains .. clone only or not doesnt matter..... when u smoke bubba ... you know your smoking bubba .... and your best bet would be to get a cut ....rather than ordering some gh stabilized shit....
I guess u could say once a flavor or particular type of cannabis is in high demand and distinguishable.... it can easily be labeled as a strain..
Despite the principles of biology and natural selection, and what u can do to dogs , The strain is just in fact a name given by the respected seller collective, or your local drug dealer ....where ever u reside....
"If a plant produces hundreds of seeds it is likely that at least a few will have genetic abnormalities (that are not bad, but different"
That is why once you breed out your so called strain and make it your own ....which would be a long endevor, you could just clone it and make it a mother .....
Of course you will have to make sure that the mother stays alive because you already stated that the next generation of seeds could be diferent...(the reason these poster are confused is they have no acces to cut ... and are at the mercy of seed companies)
And people would be pissed and say your passing out bogus genetics....
That is why it would be a better representation of what a strain is via a cut.....
So just save a mother if u can find that keeper pheno no one has .... and you will be the only one who can say they have the real thing...
And theyll have to come to u to get a peice...(ya if its that good , you could try an stabilize it in seed form , but that is breeding and not what makes a strain a strain)
Whats happening alot too is... u can make cocktail strains...
These are just mixes of two established strains..
Maybe you find a new pheno altoghter of a nice blend, or lasty the a dominate parent to have stock.....
Did i mention i have a degree also....lol
but this is just based on personal exerience....
323cheezy
Well-Known Member
This is information on breeding and how to make stable strains... and theres good info on there...
however that is not my arguement....
My point is that a clone only strain is possible.....And a clone from the mother of the breed ...is more stable than a seed...
It is understood by people in the legal community .... with many years in this industry..not someone who read some science book or took a couple biology classes..
yet these misconception that a strain can only be a strain once it is stable make s no sence.....
U cant really argue that ....
These "clone only strains " are real and in fact strains reagardless to what the others posted..
Thats all im saying....
kbo ca
Active Member
whatever man, i don't even know why you are debating this or why you're trying to get your point across. There will always be clone only strains and they will be some of the most sought after genetics. Good luck getting your definition of strain to take hold in the grow world.
323cheezy
Well-Known Member
thats the dumbest thing i ever heard from a so callled grower....
JohnTheFarmer
Member
It isn't "our" definition. It is what Science has defined. Just because 1/2 of the world is ignorant to the existence of gravity does not mean that gravity does not exist simply because half the world says so.
Think about that for a while, if you can.
Clone-only is merely copying a plant by taking a cutting. By no means is it then a "strain". "Clone only stains" are those from folks who want to cash in to the mmj market and make fast $$$ through hype, much like all the canna-specific nute companies do with thier "magic potions".
But in the true academic sense of genetics and breeding, "clone-only" sure as hell isn't a true "strain".
Think about that for a while, if you can.
Clone-only is merely copying a plant by taking a cutting. By no means is it then a "strain". "Clone only stains" are those from folks who want to cash in to the mmj market and make fast $$$ through hype, much like all the canna-specific nute companies do with thier "magic potions".
But in the true academic sense of genetics and breeding, "clone-only" sure as hell isn't a true "strain".
aeviaanah
Well-Known Member
good point, never thought of it this way...what should we call clone onlys then? +rep.
The term has no official ranking status in botany; the term refers to the collective descendants produced from a common ancestor that share a uniform morphological or physiological character.[1] A strain is a designated group of offspring that are descended from a modified plant, produced by conventional breeding, by biotechnological means, or result from genetic mutation.
As an example, some rice strains are made by inserting new genetic material into a rice plant,[2] all the descendants of the genetically modified rice plant are a strain with a unique genetic code that is passed on to later generations; the strain designation, which is normally a number or a formal name, covers all the plants that descend from the originally modified plant. The rice plants in the strain can be bred to other rice strains or cultivars, and if desirable plants are produced, these are further bred to stabilize the desirable traits; the stabilized plants that can be propagated and "come true" (remain identical to the parent plant) are given a cultivar name and released into production to be used by farmers.
kbo ca
Active Member
I vote we call them clone only strains! Don't shoot lordwinter
323cheezy
Well-Known Member
u people just dont get it ...
U have never worked with clone only starins...
And will never understand this concept until youve dealt with genetisist like the one who works with my dispenciary....
And have worked wtih clone only strains that have existed since the early 90's ..
case closed....
Good point???lol 50 % of the dont believe in gravity ...lmao...
Seems like 90 % of the people dont believe in clones only strains...
What rock do u live under?????
U have never worked with clone only starins...
And will never understand this concept until youve dealt with genetisist like the one who works with my dispenciary....
And have worked wtih clone only strains that have existed since the early 90's ..
case closed....
Good point???lol 50 % of the dont believe in gravity ...lmao...
Seems like 90 % of the people dont believe in clones only strains...
What rock do u live under?????
aeviaanah
Well-Known Member
I think a clone only is just a set of characteristics that hasnt had the inbreeding time vested. Meaning if you made seeds many of the offspring will be very different from the parent plants. A clone only doesnt mean it cant ever become a true strain, its just not a true strain at that given time. We can call clone onlys hybrids....when these hybrids have become IBL or in bred lines, we can then call them strains...
from http://www.420-greenkingdom.com/cgi-...1094084925,a=2
Several types of breeding are summarized as follows:
1 - Crossing two varieties having outstanding qualities (hybridization).
2 - Crossing individuals from the F1 generation or selfing F1 individuals to realize the possibilities of the original cross (differentiation).
3 - Back crossing to establish original parental types.
4 - Crossing two similar true-breeding (homozygous) varieties to preserve a mutual trait and restore vigor.
It should be noted that a hybrid plant is not usually hybrid for all characteristics nor does a true-breeding strain breed true for all characteristics. When discussing crosses, we are talking about the inheritance of one or a few traits only. The strain may be true-breeding for only a few traits, hybrid for the rest.
from http://www.420-greenkingdom.com/cgi-...1094084925,a=2
Several types of breeding are summarized as follows:
1 - Crossing two varieties having outstanding qualities (hybridization).
2 - Crossing individuals from the F1 generation or selfing F1 individuals to realize the possibilities of the original cross (differentiation).
3 - Back crossing to establish original parental types.
4 - Crossing two similar true-breeding (homozygous) varieties to preserve a mutual trait and restore vigor.
It should be noted that a hybrid plant is not usually hybrid for all characteristics nor does a true-breeding strain breed true for all characteristics. When discussing crosses, we are talking about the inheritance of one or a few traits only. The strain may be true-breeding for only a few traits, hybrid for the rest.
JohnTheFarmer
Member
Good post aeviaanah.
kbo ca- Nobody's going to shoot, lol. I don't have a "problem" per se with calling them "clone-only" strains- at least in the name it is telling folks it's a xerox. As I said in a previous post, strictly from the academic standpoint of genetics, "clone-only" is not technically a new strain by academic definition. It is a xerox of a phenotype.
Call them "clone-only STRAINS" if you wish, I could care less.
kbo ca- Nobody's going to shoot, lol. I don't have a "problem" per se with calling them "clone-only" strains- at least in the name it is telling folks it's a xerox. As I said in a previous post, strictly from the academic standpoint of genetics, "clone-only" is not technically a new strain by academic definition. It is a xerox of a phenotype.
Call them "clone-only STRAINS" if you wish, I could care less.
323cheezy
Well-Known Member
Agreed..
You right....
But a zerox has a bad conatation....
Consider it a true specimen of dna...
Every seed, plant,person, dog breed , is unique in its own way .. regardless how pure the breed it is .....
Thats is the beauty of nature..... it would suck if everyone was exactly the same....
So in this case their will never be another , elvis, michael jackson, jimi hendrix, or whoever ....
If we could have only could have cloned them....
You right....
But a zerox has a bad conatation....
Consider it a true specimen of dna...
Every seed, plant,person, dog breed , is unique in its own way .. regardless how pure the breed it is .....
Thats is the beauty of nature..... it would suck if everyone was exactly the same....
So in this case their will never be another , elvis, michael jackson, jimi hendrix, or whoever ....
If we could have only could have cloned them....
kbo ca
Active Member
the reason they call em clone only is just that! thats the only way you can get it. Nobody really knows who the parent plants are. Get a group of real grow heads together and ask some lineage questions about clone only strains and you will hear the longest of debates. Why pick it apart fellas that's what they're called, cuz that's what they are!
aeviaanah
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of your statement but even if you know the parent plants, it can still be clone only. I dont think it has to do with knowing or not knowing the parents. Its just as you said, thats what they're called cause thats what they are!