Strains and Phenotypes

Dizzle Frost said:

ok you win....thats not the orig intention of my post but feel free to keep educating the masses

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This wasn't about winning or losing, for me, it's about stemming the flow of misinformation. And if that's not the original intention of your post I'd love to know what it was because I can't think of a single context where you'd have a valid point with that.

We're not talking about theories or hypotheses, we're talking about the laws of genetics and heredity. Unless science reveals some monumental discovery, those laws are immutable without laboratory interference and manipulation.

In the end, it still doesn't matter. We can grab all the one-shot phenotypes that we want and slap them with the most ridiculous or creative names we can find, and unless we stabilize their genetics through careful breeding, it's not a strain, it's just an unstable phenotype with a pretty name.

Where do you think some of these crazy potent strains keep coming from? People just chuck pollen everywhere and dance around IF they get something really good. Once they get it... they clone the hell out of it instead of trying to stabilize it. Very few breeders actually take the time to stabilize a phenotype, and the ones who do have the best reputations in the business because they work their ass off to get that thing turned into it's own plant that can reproduce within a certain margin of error every single time. In the end, all these clone-only strains are just uneducated marketing, or deliberate deception to cash in on the current wave of MMJ popularity.

LordWinter said:

Very few breeders actually take the time to stabilize a phenotype, and the ones who do have the best reputations in the business because they work their ass off to get that thing turned into it's own plant that can reproduce within a certain margin of error every single time. In the end, all these clone-only strains are just uneducated marketing, or deliberate deception to cash in on the current wave of MMJ popularity.

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It really is about making a fast $ for most "strains".

I am currently working on finding a stable cross between MNS "Medicine Man" (the original "white Rhino") and MNS "Critcal Mass" (the original "Big Bud") I plan on calling it "Critical Medicine".

Here's about how it would go.

Grow out seeds.

Try to isolate through successive grows which phenotype of each the MM and CM I like best/desire, and try to through breeding the female and male of similar phenotypes "strengthen" the appearance of the phenotype- in other words, try to isolate the pheno so that over 75% of the seeds of that particular pheno will be that particular pheno, either male or female.

Say I can even isolate and stabalize 3 different phenotypes w "Medicine Man" AND 3 female phenotypes w Critical Mass. Lets say the different phenotypes per "strain" seem to be similar- one saiva dominant, one indica dominant, and one hybrid looking one, for both strains.

We will name indica dominant Medicine Man "MM1", sativa dominant "MM2" and cross "MM3"

Same for the Critical Mass phenos- Indica dominant "CM1", sativa dominant "CM2" and cross "CM3"

We keep the pollen from the males and label the indica dom MM as "MMm1", sativa dom "MMm2" and the cross "MMm3"

Same for the Critical Mass phenos- Indica dom "CMm1", sativa dom "CMm2", and cross "CMm3"

Through taking clones and breeding, we will breed "MM1" w CMm1, CMm2, and CMm3 and observe the results. Height? leaf structure? yeild? bud quality? nute tolerance? heat resistance?

We will do the same breeding with "MM2" and "MM3"

and then back cross the same phenos of female CM1, CM2, and CM3 with male MMm1, MMm2, and MMm3

That's 18 different crosses between 3 shown similar isolated and stable phenotypes of 2 different strains.

Say I find one I really like- one that has exactly what I am looking for- the Medicine Man potency with the Critical Mass yield, I can then go back and note which cross it was and try to mimic the results in another grow, until I have produced stable seeds of my cross.

Also, sometimes you will never get rid of different phenos in strains due to genetic variety being a fundamantal of species survival.

So you see, if I am going to do this and do it right, it will literally take YEARS to even find out if "Critical Medicine" could ever be a stable new strain, whereas I COULD simply take the desired phenotype, clone the shit out of it and market it immediately to MMJ folks and "cash in" on the "instant success" of my new "clone-only strain"

Pardon me, but I'd rather find the stable genetics than be a charlatan. You cannot take short cuts w science.

Say I find one I really like- one that has exactly what I am looking for- the Medicine Man potency with the Critical Mass yield, I can then go back and note which cross it was and try to mimic the results in another grow, until I have produced stable seeds of my cross.

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The only problem I see is in the quote above. What you actually have to do from there is to inbreed the shit out of them. Let's say that MMm1 and CM2 produced our hypothetical pheno. We'll call the result PH1 (phenotype1).

You can do one of two things here:
1.) You can sprout the seeds from the batch that produced PH1 and select males from that for pollen.... OR
2.) You can continue to use the MMm1 pollen to see if you can get the recessive traits to match up and display.

Ultimately, the end result is not through continued duplication of PH1 from the MMm1/CM2 cross. You're basically going to be breeding MMm1 to PH1, or PHm1 (see point 1) to PH1, and repeating that same step with successive generations of the pheno until you have it refined to the point that a cross of the pheno with it's male counterpart will reliably produce that cross. It may take two generations of plants or it may take 20.

This is how you linebreed to refine a strain once you have the pheno you wish to use as your base.

Sorry if that's what you meant, but it seems like you're talking about working with only one plant.

Everything else seems spot on, especially the fact that it will take years, and that some phenos can't be eliminated. To my knowledge, even in some of the more stable strains, there's a handful of phenos that pop up with some being better than others. Feel free to PM me if you're not sure what I mean.

I got a phenotype growing right now. I ordered 10 Afgan Kush from a seed supplier in Sheffield UK, they tricked me, I thought I was buying from MS Seeds Canada and it was just their Canadian website. No biggy got here supper fast.

Anyway I got 50% of what i paid for. 2 didn't germinate, 1 male, 1 died (my fault) and 1 is a pheno. This pheno is and has always been a fast grower. I topped it twice just to slow it down to the others. Now a mo into flower the fan leaves are super hugh, like 3"stem3" leave, curled up a start, and no bud forming. This plant could also be mutant, meaning will not bud. Cheer-ry thought, hey?

A strain is only a strain as long as it's cloned. Every seed even from the same plant is diffrent, no two are exactly the same. People that say they are, are lier's.

I'm sure the laws of genetics are a lie too, right? A strain breeds true, a clone only "strain" is just a single plant that's been run through the xerox machine, never been bred, only cut.

i agree with the above statement...

so much to learn...

In a way, cannabis breeding is a lot like prospecting for gold. You're always driving yourself insane with the hunt, and rarely does anyone find the nugget that sets them up for a life without worry.

Great thread, tons of good information. It makes me appreciate people who do diligent breeding vs. finding a cool pheno and cloning the shit out of it.

This may be a dumb question, but what are the traits that are desirable for a male? Obviously you have things like nutrient and heat tolerance, along with growth and vigor; however, do you look for traits in the male flower? I don't have the resources to breed (or else I would) so I, like many others, chop males on sight.

Also, these breeders who make true strains must need a lot of help. When you have tons of different seeds to grow out it would make a lot of sense to have someone else grow them out for you. However, I could see this leading to problems with inconsistant growing conditions and not being able to distinguish if a result was because of the seed or the environment. What do breeders do about this? Do they indeed have people grow out different seeds, or do they spend the years upon years dealing with one lineage?

LordWinter said:

The only problem I see is in the quote above. What you actually have to do from there is to inbreed the shit out of them. Let's say that MMm1 and CM2 produced our hypothetical pheno. We'll call the result PH1 (phenotype1).

You can do one of two things here:
1.) You can sprout the seeds from the batch that produced PH1 and select males from that for pollen.... OR
2.) You can continue to use the MMm1 pollen to see if you can get the recessive traits to match up and display.

Ultimately, the end result is not through continued duplication of PH1 from the MMm1/CM2 cross. You're basically going to be breeding MMm1 to PH1, or PHm1 (see point 1) to PH1, and repeating that same step with successive generations of the pheno until you have it refined to the point that a cross of the pheno with it's male counterpart will reliably produce that cross. It may take two generations of plants or it may take 20.

This is how you linebreed to refine a strain once you have the pheno you wish to use as your base.

Sorry if that's what you meant, but it seems like you're talking about working with only one plant.

Everything else seems spot on, especially the fact that it will take years, and that some phenos can't be eliminated. To my knowledge, even in some of the more stable strains, there's a handful of phenos that pop up with some being better than others. Feel free to PM me if you're not sure what I mean.

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Hehehe I guess I got tired of writing and tried to wrap up the post too soon, but, yes, I would inbreed the hell out of them, but I would also grow out more of the MMm1 and CM2 to check the frequency of appearance of PH1 at that stage, as well as at each successive stage of inbreeding MMm1 and PH1

JohnTheFarmer said:

Speaking form the standpoint of academic genetics, so bear with me as I AM being a bit technical here, but there really is no such thing as a "clone-only STRAIN". Plants that are "clone only" are merely direct copies of whatever special phenotype is being copied.

If the special phenotype can be reproduced through breeding to produce stable desired characteristics, then it truly becomes a "strain".

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to correct you, there are clone only strains. Meaning that the seeds from that particular strain don't exist anymore, and the only way to get more seeds similar to that type, is to cross it with a different strain creating something that is not the same as the clone, or original mother. I am not debating the fact that the plant originally came from a seed, but after a while the seeds arent bred anymore and the clones are all that is left of a strain.

IMO, most breeders cross with stable, widely available stock. There are several strains out there that act sort of as a blank slate. Question I have is why in the world would anyone allow a good strain to go seedless? That smacks of bad care of the genetic lines by the breeder(s), plus laziness as they apparently don't want to propogate the line by crossing it with a male of good stock for more seeds. It CAN be done, just takes time. A lot of time. All it takes usually is going back to the male which was used in the original cross to breed w the strain and poof- seeds. May take a few generations of inbreeding the line to get the stable phenotype to appear more frequently, but I don't buy the "clone only" strain sales pitch. I am firmly of the opinion "clone only" is for marketing and ca$h purposes, not out of necessity.

kbo ca said:

to correct you, there are clone only strains. Meaning that the seeds from that particular strain don't exist anymore, and the only way to get more seeds similar to that type, is to cross it with a different strain creating something that is not the same as the clone, or original mother. I am not debating the fact that the plant originally came from a seed, but after a while the seeds arent bred anymore and the clones are all that is left of a strain.

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Nope. We're talking about science here, not pop culture. Sorry, but I've already shown that this view is incorrect, and so has Farmer John. I'll say this one last time, if the strain loses the ability to reproduce sexually, the strain is lost. Clone only strains cannot naturally reproduce, ergo, they are not true strains. You can attempt self crosses, but if you cannot produce a male, the lineage is gone.

This may be a dumb question, but what are the traits that are desirable for a male? Obviously you have things like nutrient and heat tolerance, along with growth and vigor; however, do you look for traits in the male flower? I don't have the resources to breed (or else I would) so I, like many others, chop males on sight.

Also, these breeders who make true strains must need a lot of help. When you have tons of different seeds to grow out it would make a lot of sense to have someone else grow them out for you. However, I could see this leading to problems with inconsistant growing conditions and not being able to distinguish if a result was because of the seed or the environment. What do breeders do about this? Do they indeed have people grow out different seeds, or do they spend the years upon years dealing with one lineage?

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For your first question... I'd say that the desirable traits are somewhat subjective... take height for instance and look at the differences between indoor and outdoor grows. Other than that, I think your listing is pretty solid. I don't breed cannabis yet, but you do look for whatever traits you can see since we don't generally (some people will smoke anything, so I say generally) use the males for medicine.

As for the second question, the answer is both. Some use assistants, and some do it themselves because they don't trust anyone's judgment but their own.

While I agree, it's also important to remember that sometimes bad things just happen, and strains are lost that way, as well.

LordWinter said:

Nope. We're talking about science here, not pop culture. Sorry, but I've already shown that this view is incorrect, and so has Farmer John. I'll say this one last time, if the strain loses the ability to reproduce sexually, the strain is lost. Clone only strains cannot naturally reproduce, ergo, they are not true strains. You can attempt self crosses, but if you cannot produce a male, the lineage is gone

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I disagree. the ability to produce seeds is gone, but the ability to produce the flower from that specific line of genetics remains.

JohnTheFarmer said:

IMO, most breeders cross with stable, widely available stock. There are several strains out there that act sort of as a blank slate. Question I have is why in the world would anyone allow a good strain to go seedless? That smacks of bad care of the genetic lines by the breeder(s), plus laziness as they apparently don't want to propogate the line by crossing it with a male of good stock for more seeds. It CAN be done, just takes time. A lot of time. All it takes usually is going back to the male which was used in the original cross to breed w the strain and poof- seeds. May take a few generations of inbreeding the line to get the stable phenotype to appear more frequently, but I don't buy the "clone only" strain sales pitch. I am firmly of the opinion "clone only" is for marketing and ca$h purposes, not out of necessity.

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are you seeing seeds for sale that are claiming to be clone only? I don't see how this could be a marketing ploy because the statement clone only seeds is an oxymoron. You can't get seeds for a strain that exists only in clone form. The way a strain becomes "clone only" or only available in clone form, is not by laziness, it's by a lucky mistake. Someone gets a selfed seed, or grows out some nameless pheno that happens to be extraordinary. It gets passed on from circle to circle as it gains fame. There are no seeds for that particular strain. Some breeders might name their newest batch of seeds after it because it has similar effects or looks, whatever it may be. There are clones all over california that aren't available in seed form. Some farmer somewhere grew out his own hybrid or whatever the story behind it may be, and he took cuttings and circulated them. I don't understand the confusion on this subject

kbo ca said:

I disagree. the ability to produce seeds is gone, but the ability to produce the flower from that specific line of genetics remains.

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You're more than welcome to disagree, it does not change the laws of genetics. If you cannot reproduce the strain through normal reproduction, the strain is dead. Cloning is not sexual reproduction, end of story. Wrap it up, dress it up, paint it, dye it, it doesn't matter what you want to do with it. Clone only is NOT a strain. It can be the last remnants of a strain, but the strain is dead as soon as it cannot reproduce. Doesn't matter how dank the bud is or how long you can keep the mom alive, the strain is dead.

kbo ca said:

are you seeing seeds for sale that are claiming to be clone only? I don't see how this could be a marketing ploy because the statement clone only seeds is an oxymoron. You can't get seeds for a strain that exists only in clone form. The way a strain becomes "clone only" or only available in clone form, is not by laziness, it's by a lucky mistake. Someone gets a selfed seed, or grows out some nameless pheno that happens to be extraordinary. It gets passed on from circle to circle as it gains fame. There are no seeds for that particular strain. Some breeders might name their newest batch of seeds after it because it has similar effects or looks, whatever it may be. There are clones all over california that aren't available in seed form. Some farmer somewhere grew out his own hybrid or whatever the story behind it may be, and he took cuttings and circulated them. I don't understand the confusion on this subject

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If they're selling seeds that claim to be from clone-only strains, then they are either selling the seeds from self crosses, or they are lying through their teeth. It's that simple.

And again with the same argument? You just admitted it was a lucky mistake. You can't reproduce a clone-only pheno through sexual means without stabilizing the genetics, to do that, you either have to do a self cross, or find pollen from a male in the batch of seeds that produced the pheno you have. You've seen the definitions and you've been shown the truth. I refuse to argue this further and repeat myself. Bring me something new and we can talk again.

LordWinter said:

You're more than welcome to disagree, it does not change the laws of genetics. If you cannot reproduce the strain through normal reproduction, the strain is dead. Cloning is not sexual reproduction, end of story. Wrap it up, dress it up, paint it, dye it, it doesn't matter what you want to do with it. Clone only is NOT a strain. It can be the last remnants of a strain, but the strain is dead as soon as it cannot reproduce. Doesn't matter how dank the bud is or how long you can keep the mom alive, the strain is dead.



If they're selling seeds that claim to be from clone-only strains, then they are either selling the seeds from self crosses, or they are lying through their teeth. It's that simple.

And again with the same argument? You just admitted it was a lucky mistake. You can't reproduce a clone-only pheno through sexual means without stabilizing the genetics, to do that, you either have to do a self cross, or find pollen from a male in the batch of seeds that produced the pheno you have. You've seen the definitions and you've been shown the truth. I refuse to argue this further and repeat myself. Bring me something new and we can talk again.

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The problem is the strain is not dead if there is clones of it. It may not be able to reproduce, but the strain still exists. and what is it with saying they aren't real strains? When you walk into a dispensary and see a jar of blue dream on the shelf and you happen to ask about the strain, they aren't going to say, no no this isn't a strain sir, there are no existing seeds of this type so its not a strain. yet blue dream will be around as long as people want it. And yes all clone only STRAINS are from seed and produced sexually. Im not sure what you're trying to argue here. I agree they can't be reproduced other than by taking cuttings.

I'm arguing the difference between REAL science and pop culture nomenclature. Just because you choose to consider it a strain doesn't make it a true strain. If the strain can't reproduce on it's own and breed true, then it is no longer a strain. The lineage is lost. Done. Finished. Dead. Unless someone does the work to revive the lineage and re-stabilize it through inbreeding, it will never again be a strain. Science does not say that the plant is a strain if it can be cloned. Xeroxing a plant does not make it a strain. Five billion seedbanks calling it a clone only strain does not make it a strain. A strain is defined as I stated in my earlier posts. If you can't read and understand that, then you don't want to understand.

LordWinter said:

I'm arguing the difference between REAL science and pop culture nomenclature. Just because you choose to consider it a strain doesn't make it a true strain. If the strain can't reproduce on it's own and breed true, then it is no longer a strain. The lineage is lost. Done. Finished. Dead. Unless someone does the work to revive the lineage and re-stabilize it through inbreeding, it will never again be a strain. Science does not say that the plant is a strain if it can be cloned. Xeroxing a plant does not make it a strain. Five billion seedbanks calling it a clone only strain does not make it a strain. A strain is defined as I stated in my earlier posts. If you can't read and understand that, then you don't want to understand.

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so if its not a strain, what do YOU call it. I have a room full of plants, but i guess i can't tell you what strain they are because they all came from clone. LOL

JohnTheFarmer said:

IMO, most breeders cross with stable, widely available stock. There are several strains out there that act sort of as a blank slate. Question I have is why in the world would anyone allow a good strain to go seedless? That smacks of bad care of the genetic lines by the breeder(s), plus laziness as they apparently don't want to propogate the line by crossing it with a male of good stock for more seeds. It CAN be done, just takes time. A lot of time. All it takes usually is going back to the male which was used in the original cross to breed w the strain and poof- seeds. May take a few generations of inbreeding the line to get the stable phenotype to appear more frequently, but I don't buy the "clone only" strain sales pitch. I am firmly of the opinion "clone only" is for marketing and ca$h purposes, not out of necessity.

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u cant be serious...???