Strains and Phenotypes

ColdArmySoldier

ColdArmySoldier

Well-Known Member
So I have been wondering/thinking this for a while and couldn't find very much information online.

After growing multiple strains, I have noticed that some seeds end up being very different form the "parent." So much so that I would consider them different strains. Sure, some genetic traits were passed down, but the bud characteristics were not.

This leads to my question: when do breeders consider a phenotype that is completely different from the parent a new strain? If a plant produces hundreds of seeds it is likely that at least a few will have genetic abnormalities (that are not bad, but different).
 
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LordWinter

New Member
I believe it is when that pheno becomes stabilized and breeds true, then it is considered a strain. But I could be wrong.
 
ColdArmySoldier

ColdArmySoldier

Well-Known Member
Very interesting, so even if I had a pure OG Kush strain (OG x OG) and it had a non-OG-like offspring, you could consider that a new strain? I guess "original" strains had to start somewhere!
 
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LordWinter

New Member
I'm just making an educated guess from what I see quoted in genetic listings for plants. If I'm off base, I don't think it's going to be by much. Those have to be at least the basics.

Edit: Damn, my bad. I misread that. I thought you were stating an assumption. No, I wouldn't consider that a new strain. I'd consider that a pheno. You'd have to take the pheno and stabilize it so that you achieve the same results to a certain degree of reliability every time you bred two plants of that pheno. Not sure what the percentage is that defines the degree of reliability, though. But again, like I said, I think that's just the basics. I believe there are more criteria than that, but I know genetic stability and breeding true are important (not sure, but I think they might be the same thing, actually).
 
JohnTheFarmer

JohnTheFarmer

Member
Think in terms of what it takes to create a new breed of dog. You cross one breed with another, or several breeds, what does it take to achieve a stable, constant result of certain characteristics/traits from the breeds used in the cross?

The stable result of desired characteristics is a new breed.
 
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LordWinter

New Member
That's what I thought. I just wasn't sure how much of the principles of Fancy Rat genetics would translate directly onto plants. I know the core principles are the same, but trait expression is a bit different, I believe. Not much, but enough to make it a wee bit confusing at times.
 
Dizzle Frost

Dizzle Frost

Well-Known Member
To answer your Q....yes..some strains have come from speacial phenotypes and have gone on as clone only strains...for example; UK Cheese...was found ina pack of Skunk#1, the grower was smart enuf to notice it was speacial adn cloned and shared it. Nobody refers to it as Skunk#1 even though it is, everyone knows the Cheese tho. C99 was created from a pack of Jack Herer F2's which produced Princess, Genius and Cafe Girl, techniclally JH plants..but so diff they became seperate clone only strains.
 
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ColdArmySoldier

ColdArmySoldier

Well-Known Member
Dizzle Frost said:
To answer your Q....yes..some strains have come from speacial phenotypes and have gone on as clone only strains...for example; UK Cheese...was found ina pack of Skunk#1, the grower was smart enuf to notice it was speacial adn cloned and shared it. Nobody refers to it as Skunk#1 even though it is, everyone knows the Cheese tho. C99 was created from a pack of Jack Herer F2's which produced Princess, Genius and Cafe Girl, techniclally JH plants..but so diff they became seperate clone only strains.
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Ah I see, this is the answer I was looking for. Now I totally understand what people mean when they talk about clone only strains (I never really sat and thought about it). Now if only I could find a unique pheno from one of my seed packs.
 
JohnTheFarmer

JohnTheFarmer

Member
Speaking form the standpoint of academic genetics, so bear with me as I AM being a bit technical here, but there really is no such thing as a "clone-only STRAIN". Plants that are "clone only" are merely direct copies of whatever special phenotype is being copied.

If the special phenotype can be reproduced through breeding to produce stable desired characteristics, then it truly becomes a "strain".
 
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LordWinter

New Member
That's what I was thinking when I wrote my posts. A strain, or breed, is not much more than a genetically stabilized phenotype. I know that's probably playing fast and loose with genetics laws, but that's the closest approximation I can make. I'm self taught, not academically educated on genetics. Some of it "just makes sense" to me, yanno?
 
Dizzle Frost

Dizzle Frost

Well-Known Member
JohnTheFarmer said:
Speaking form the standpoint of academic genetics, so bear with me as I AM being a bit technical here, but there really is no such thing as a "clone-only STRAIN". Plants that are "clone only" are merely direct copies of whatever special phenotype is being copied.

If the special phenotype can be reproduced through breeding to produce stable desired characteristics, then it truly becomes a "strain".
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good point..but in all reality when you seperate a special phenotype it does become a clone only strain in its own right....due ot the fact you will not have a male that will breed true for that trait. So the only real way to experience that perticular plant is in a clone form....hence clone only. It boils down to the rarity or the occurance of that phenotype. To my knowledge the elite clones of the world have never been repeated like UK Cheese for instance...if it has then the grower wasnt keen enuf to notice it. Do you see were im going with this? lol Another example would be chemdog....it was found in a seeded bag of unknown chronic sold at a concert...he poped the seeds and got the chemdog line. Diff scenario..same outcome. As good as the Cheese seeds you can buy..they are not the original, as with G-13 unless you buy the fem version from Dr.Greenthumb..which is a selfed version of the orig clone only clone lol.
 
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LordWinter

New Member
I get what you're saying, but you'll be hard pressed to find a geneticist who'll concede to you that a rare pheno = a strain, unless it has been stabilized to breed true. Before that happens, it's just a rare mutation or rare trait display.

Edit: To illustrate, I'm going to post the definitions of strain, phenotype, and genotype here for you so you may understand:

Strain definition - From Merriam Webster online -
a : Lineage, Ancestry
b : a group of presumed common ancestry with clear-cut physiological but usually not morphological distinctions <a high-yielding strain of winter wheat>; broadly : a specified infraspecific group (as a stock, line, or ecotype)

Phenotype Definition - Same source -
: the observable properties of an organism that are produced by the interaction of the genotype and the environment.

Genotype Definition - Still same source -
: all or part of the genetic constitution of an individual or group.

So, you see? It's not about our opinion, it's about the rules of genetics. A strain MUST have an observable lineage based on observable, stable genetics, and reproducible phenotypical traits. One instance of a phenotype does not denote a strain.

The idea of clone-only strains is nice for marketing, but there's no science behind it, as you can now see.

It's putting the luck of the draw in the hands of someone who knows what they have, followed by TONS of hard work to reproduce that phenotype and stabilize it... THAT is what gives us a new strain.
 
Dizzle Frost

Dizzle Frost

Well-Known Member
LordWinter said:
I get what you're saying, but you'll be hard pressed to find a geneticist who'll concede to you that a rare pheno = a strain, unless it has been stabilized to breed true. Before that happens, it's just a rare mutation or rare trait display.

Edit: To illustrate, I'm going to post the definitions of strain, phenotype, and genotype here for you so you may understand:

Strain definition - From Merriam Webster online -
a : Lineage, Ancestry
b : a group of presumed common ancestry with clear-cut physiological but usually not morphological distinctions <a high-yielding strain of winter wheat>; broadly : a specified infraspecific group (as a stock, line, or ecotype)

Phenotype Definition - Same source -
: the observable properties of an organism that are produced by the interaction of the genotype and the environment.

Genotype Definition - Still same source -
: all or part of the genetic constitution of an individual or group.

So, you see? It's not about our opinion, it's about the rules of genetics. A strain MUST have an observable lineage based on observable, stable genetics, and reproducible phenotypical traits. One instance of a phenotype does not denote a strain.

The idea of clone-only strains is nice for marketing, but there's no science behind it, as you can now see.

It's putting the luck of the draw in the hands of someone who knows what they have, followed by TONS of hard work to reproduce that phenotype and stabilize it... THAT is what gives us a new strain.
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ok you win....thats not the orig intention of my post but feel free to keep educating the masses
 
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