Slow/stunted growth. First dwc

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
I think you're missing my point. Waterfalls don't increase oxygenation- full saturation is actually easy to achieve.

The advantages I found with waterfalls were many;
1. Less equipment to accomplish the same goal, thereby reducing complexity, cost and points of potential failure. RDWC requires a circulation pump anyway, so I just use that same unit attached to a manifold to evenly distribute water to all tubs- advantage being that whatever I add to the control bucket is immediately and evenly mixed- and that manifold also oxygenates because it feeds a waterfall in every tubsite.

2. I've found this approach makes the plants much less sensitive to changes in the water level, again improving robustness in the system.

3. I had root rot problems when I used airstones, and like everyone else I employed water chilling to prevent it. With waterfalls, no such problems and water chilling was no longer necessary, again leading to much lower costs, more robust operation and lower parts count.

Whether this makes sense to you or not, it works, at scale, reliably and repeatably. No magic. When empirical results differ from theory, one must reexamine the assumptions one is operating under. Waterfalls work; Mother Nature has been using them for a long time.
1. Agreed they accomplish the same goal, less equipment, reducing the complexity, provides a minimal amount of extra surface area for gas exchange in regards to your manifold ( if this is making a difference your system is likely inadequate to being with), provides more even distribution of nutrients from the epi (possible help for larger plants and systems only smaller systems are not likely to see much of a benefit in that regard)

Disagreed that it reduces cost, if you are going to run 1 pump maybe but again i don't feel its a good idea to have all your eggs in one basket. You will also require a bigger pump due to the increased head pressure further increasing the cost because you change from pulling water through the system to pushing it through this compounds as the system gets bigger if you want to keep the same flow.

Disagreed on points of failure, you are putting all of your eggs in one basket with one pump unless you run 2 pumps increasing the cost. If an air pump fails it still has the circulation of the water and while O2 exchange will be drastically reduced it will not be almost completely eliminated like if you are running one water pump. With an air stone if your water pump fails the water stays oxygenated and not stagnant, the only concern would be it depleted the nutrients which would allow for a lot of time before serious problems occur in comparison to without an air stone.

2. I can't see any logical reason for this, other than splashing the roots. Both provide this effect in different ways but i guess i could possibly the effect increasing as water level drop on a waterfall system.

3. There could be many reasons why you had problems when you used air stones. Likely an inadequate system by some means (which i can't say, maybe volume, maybe air stone placement (doubtful you seem to know your stuff), maybe the size of your containers, maybe plugged up air stones, maybe multiple of these issues) If you are generating a root mass that takes up almost the whole container I can see most definitely a waterfall being more effective but that's not an air stone issue.

Water temp is directly related to the amount of DO water holds. All we are doing is replenishing it so the more o2 you start out with the bigger buffer you have and the further you drift from equilibrium the faster this occurs provided you have adequate gas exchange this is fact. If you think you are adding o2 in excess of what it holds at equilibrium you have been misinformed on the subject somewhere along the way. o2 is very had to raise above equilibrium without increased pressure or temp change. (Not deleting this portion for information purposes but i just reviewed you post and this was not something you were claiming)

If i had to guess why you see such a difference (i believe you have seen a big difference and believe most of what you claim to have seen a difference in but not for the reason you are claiming that is my issue because people take them as fact after and that how all this misinformation gets spread) is because your previous equipment or air system was not adequate that could be for many different reason (some i have listed).

I want to apologize for my reaction and some uncalled for remarks. I would much rather debate like this. I got triggered and that's on me. We don't have to agree on everything and a healthy debate helps the community as a whole. So i take full responsibility for turning what should have been a healthy debate into a shit show
 
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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
1. Agreed they accomplish the same goal, less equipment, reducing the complexity, provides a minimal amount of extra surface area for gas exchange in regards to your manifold ( if this is making a difference your system is likely inadequate to being with), provides more even distribution of nutrients from the epi (possible help for larger plants and systems only smaller systems are not likely to see much of a benefit in that regard)

Disagreed that it reduces cost, if you are going to run 1 pump maybe but again i don't feel its a good idea to have all your eggs in one basket. You will also require a bigger pump due to the increased head pressure further increasing the cost because you change from pulling water through the system to pushing it through this compounds as the system gets bigger if you want to keep the same flow.

Disagreed on points of failure, you are putting all of your eggs in one basket with one pump unless you run 2 pumps increasing the cost. If an air pump fails it still has the circulation of the water pump and while O2 exchange will be drastically reduced it will not be almost completely eliminated like if you are running one water pump.

2. I can't see any logical reason for this, other than splashing the roots. Both provide this effect in different ways but i guess i could possibly the effect increasing as water level drop on a waterfall system.

3. There could be many reasons why you had problems when you used air stones. Likely an inadequate system by some means (which i can't say, maybe volume, maybe air stone placement (doubtful you seem to know your stuff), maybe the size of your containers, maybe plugged up air stones, maybe multiple of these issues) If you are generating a root mass that takes up almost the whole container I can see most definitely a waterfall being more effective but that's not an air stone issue.

Water temp is directly related to the amount of DO water holds. All we are doing is replenishing it so the more o2 you start out with the bigger buffer you have and the further you drift from equilibrium the faster this occurs provided you have adequate gas exchange this is fact. If you think you are adding o2 in excess of what it holds at equilibrium you have been misinformed on the subject somewhere along the way. o2 is very had to raise above equilibrium without increased pressure or temp change. (Not deleting this portion for information purposes but i just reviewed you post and this was not something you were claiming)

If i had to guess why you see such a difference (i believe you have seen a big difference and believe most of what you claim to have seen a difference in but not for the reason you are claiming that is my issue because people take them as fact after and that how all this misinformation gets spread) is because your previous equipment or air system was not adequate that could be for many different reason (some i have listed).

I want to apologize for my reaction and some uncalled for remarks. I would much rather debate like this. I got triggered and that's on me. We don't have to agree on everything and a healthy debate helps the community as a whole. So i take full responsibility for turning what should have been a healthy debate into a shit show
No worries, it's easy to get misinterpreted on these forums. I like a healthy debate as well.

Pump size doesn't change, and I'm comparing to Undercurrent style RDWC.

Yes it's more reliable because only one point of failure- the pump- instead of that plus the entire air system which isn't limited to just the pump.

Full saturation is temperature dependent; nothing new there. Both will fully saturate to the temperature of the water at the time. I never made any claims about super saturation and for the record I'm sceptical of any claims about it.

When I observed the water in my tubsites, something I did a lot, I noticed that air stones did not break up films or films on the water's surface. Maybe my air systems weren't as strong as those of others but I did make sure to use several stones per tub. Waterfalls really broke up that surface film and kept it from recurring- and that's the main basis for my explanation of why, in my experience, waterfalls are more effective at preventing root rot problems than air stones.

It definitely reduces cost! Only a little extra water tubing is needed and there is no maintenance or scheduled replacements of pumps or stones, no need for air lines, fittings, etc.

Waterfalls don't need a lot of pressure, the height alone is sufficient, so no need for bigger pumps.
 

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
No worries, it's easy to get misinterpreted on these forums. I like a healthy debate as well.

Pump size doesn't change, and I'm comparing to Undercurrent style RDWC.

Yes it's more reliable because only one point of failure- the pump- instead of that plus the entire air system which isn't limited to just the pump.

Full saturation is temperature dependent; nothing new there. Both will fully saturate to the temperature of the water at the time. I never made any claims about super saturation and for the record I'm sceptical of any claims about it.

When I observed the water in my tubsites, something I did a lot, I noticed that air stones did not break up films or films on the water's surface. Maybe my air systems weren't as strong as those of others but I did make sure to use several stones per tub. Waterfalls really broke up that surface film and kept it from recurring- and that's the main basis for my explanation of why, in my experience, waterfalls are more effective at preventing root rot problems than air stones.

It definitely reduces cost! Only a little extra water tubing is needed and there is no maintenance or scheduled replacements of pumps or stones, no need for air lines, fittings, etc.

Waterfalls don't need a lot of pressure, the height alone is sufficient, so no need for bigger pumps.
You absolutely will lose some flow due to head pressure because you need to move enough volume to create some back pressure or your furthest buckets will not receive the same amount of flow as your closest and that will cause issues. This is not a problem with tradition RDWC. That's not to say your pump for your RDWC was not over rated and you see no issues with this in your system. The flow will be less if you are achieving equal distribution than that of a tradition RDWC with the same equipment.

I see it differently, I would rather have 2 points of failure each will less impact than 1 with catastrophic impact.

We agree on water temps/O2. Which leads me to say if both systems are adequate neither will have a bearing on root rot either positive or negative over the other. There can be other factors involved which will contribute such as your root mass in relation to res size where a waterfall makes an argument for better performance. But this is not a deficiency in air stones this is an issue with the size of container and there are options for a solution not just use a waterfall. But to claim that a waterfall filter allows you to run warmer temps I just don't agree with if both systems are set up adequately.

Both are effective at breaking up surface scum again if both systems are adequate.

Cost i can agree would be debatable and could go either way depending how you set it up. I would do it differently but there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

My argument has nothing to do with saying one system is better than the other. Both are great and carry advantages and disadvantages and one is not far superior to the other in performance if both systems are adequate. Its only that some of the claims you made i feel are a little bias and exaggerated. I absolutely believe you seen the changes that you claim but again not so much due to the difference between the 2 systems but more so the adequacy of those systems.
 

JovialGent

Active Member
Hi,
So looking into a few things, I've found RO filters for as little as 40 quid online!!
I always thought they were far more expensive then that!
I'm considering getting one (after solving the plumbing issue) and a 100ltr water butt to store it in.. and as the water levels start dropping replace/ top up water+nutes with RO filtered water.

I'm also looking into the PH perfect AN range Oldmeduser mentioned.
My PH climbs quickly.. and the thought of it self balancing really appeals (especially in single site res)
I can use the excess flora series for my mother's..
Looking through this forum I can change the brand of nutes mid grow.. but should I drain the res first??
I've found the 3part also a grow/bloom a+b.. which is best?

Cheers JG
 

JovialGent

Active Member
check the price of the replacement filters too. and if your source water is bad, you'll be replacing filters frequently. just something to keep in mind.
I've checked.. and filters are just as much.
Trying to buy RO water will be expensive as well if I was to fill the 5 drums I have..
Looking at £200 a time without additional top up water.
I'll see how I do with the water conditioner for now.
As today my carbon filter seems to be blocked.
I thought it was the fan as no air was being drawn through.. until I removed the filter.. bit pissed about it.. as everything is new!!!
 

Axion42

Well-Known Member
I've checked.. and filters are just as much.
Trying to buy RO water will be expensive as well if I was to fill the 5 drums I have..
Looking at £200 a time without additional top up water.
I'll see how I do with the water conditioner for now.
As today my carbon filter seems to be blocked.
I thought it was the fan as no air was being drawn through.. until I removed the filter.. bit pissed about it.. as everything is new!!!
Did your filter have the cloth filter on the outside of it? That'll help keep particulates from clogging the actual carbon filter
 

JovialGent

Active Member
Did your filter have the cloth filter on the outside of it? That'll help keep particulates from clogging the actual carbon filter
It did yes. So really no clue as to why its preventing airflow.
I bought it online and it came with the fan.. its the only thing i didnt go too expensive with..
The filters unbranded and came in a plain box.
I maybe should have invested slightly more...
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
It did yes. So really no clue as to why its preventing airflow.
I bought it online and it came with the fan.. its the only thing i didnt go too expensive with..
The filters unbranded and came in a plain box.
I maybe should have invested slightly more...
Do you live in a very humid environment? Excess moisture can cause the carbon pellets to swell and impede airflow.
 

JovialGent

Active Member
Do you live in a very humid environment? Excess moisture can cause the carbon pellets to swell and impede airflow.
I don't, no.. but I do have a humidifier running, and it did send rh quite high.. the day I made the error on the fan I mentioned one day.
Could just that wreck the whole filter in a few hours though?
RH is averaging 50% normally
 

Axion42

Well-Known Member
At 50% nah that filter should last. I have a cheap ipower filter that has lasted 3 grows so far, nearly a year and still working great. 70% humidity thru veg and steady 40-50% during flower.
 

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
I don't, no.. but I do have a humidifier running, and it did send rh quite high.. the day I made the error on the fan I mentioned one day.
Could just that wreck the whole filter in a few hours though?
RH is averaging 50% normally
Easy way to find out. Take the filer off remove the pre-filter and put it out in the sun all day. Better yet If there is no plastic you could even do a cookie sheet in the oven on lowest setting for several hours. you can actually renew activated carbon to an extent by burning off trapped organics.

Activated carbon is not equal, different types are used in different applications and the cost associated between cheap and quality usually plays a role.
 

JovialGent

Active Member
Easy way to find out. Take the filer off remove the pre-filter and put it out in the sun all day. Better yet If there is no plastic you could even do a cookie sheet in the oven on lowest setting for several hours. you can actually renew activated carbon to an extent by burning off trapped organics.

Activated carbon is not equal, different types are used in different applications and the cost associated between cheap and quality usually plays a role.
Ill try this.. and dry it out.
I have already complained to the seller and waiting a response..
If i get a refund tho.. i have my eye on an ec vector fan and mountain air filter ... :-)
 

JovialGent

Active Member
Theres deffo a problem with the filters and nothing i have done.
I remembered they sent a 200cm can instead of 400cm.. and reshipped a larger one to me when i messaged the seller and they let me keep the smaller one no charge.
Well ive fitted that.. and its just as bad if not worse..
Litetally no airflow.. and thats been sat in a bag in the corner of a different room!

Ps Things seemed to have improved over the last few days, bit more growth..
I havent added more nutes.. not sure wether too just yet even tho its been suggested..
No sign of deficiencies
Ph has been stable (5.5 -5.8) between tubs and ppm is dropping slowly.. 10ppm a day. Seems quite balanced to me??
I dont expect much growth for a few days as i tried my hand at fimming for the first time...

I was planning on flowering this jack flash real quick, as its known to get quite tall..
But opting now for a longer veg and will top side shoots etc as well.. i have plenty space.. so going short and bushy
 
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JovialGent

Active Member
Upped the nutes today. As advised and will again soon.
Thinned the field and removed the plant slacking. It has a home of its own under 250cfl. And now the light spreads better i think.
One is showing some yellowing today and looks like heat curling the leaf im not sure.. as the others look fine to me..??

Not sure if i fimmed correctly.. but check it out..

Ive also found a relatively cheap source of RO water!!!!!
Getting 300 odd litres home may cause a problem.. but jumping on Oldmeds bandwagon and going to switch to RO and AN ph perfect when i switch to flower.
I already have cal mag and rhino skin ready for that.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated..

Cheers
JG

Edit..
PPM 650 (tap water 230)
PH 5.3-5.6
TEMP 26/78
RH 55%
WATER 21/70
 

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JovialGent

Active Member
Can anyone tell me whens best to start using the rhino skin?.. and how much to put in..??
Can it be used in conjuction with rhizotonic?
Cheers
 
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Hydro4life

Well-Known Member
I got about 50 DWC grows under my belt using RO water only in RubberMaid tubs.

I'd switch to RO and your ppm is too low for plants at that stage of growth. Should be at least 500ppm of nutes so 500 plus your 270 tap water is 770 or thereabouts. With RO you don't have to think about crap like chloramine, alkalinity and all sorts of minerals in the tap water screwing up your plants.

Airstones work great. Setting up waterfalls probably works OK but I aim for simplicity and adding pumps to move water adds more complexity for screwups.

I take it you are venting into your attic? DON'T!!! Every liter of water you are giving to your plants ends up in your attic. Serious mold problems will result and if it's an unheated attic it'll freeze up there during the winter and make it rain in your house come springtime. Ask me how I know. ;)

You can snip off the long, stringy roots and that will make the portions above branch out more. As said above keep water level an inch below the bottom of the pots. Spray from popping bubbles will keep everything plenty wet under the lid.

The tubs have two long grooves in bottom that 12" airstones lay in nicely and I've had as many as 16 plants in one tub and a s few as one doing DWC ScroG.

View attachment 4321807
With RO water I've done many grows without ever changing the water. I just check the ppm and add more as the plants eat it. I use the AN pH Perfect 3-part nutes, Big Bud for a flower booster and a bit of Rhino Skin for silica. Any old CalMag will do and Epsom Salts are cheap. I never check pH and have never ran into pH problems. Before AN went pH Perfect I would check pH and it always went up to 6.3 or so and a few drops of conc. sulfuric acid would knock it back to 5.4 or so. Only topped up with RO every 3 days and that pH movement is good for the plants.

Getting into soil/organic growing these days but will be doing DWC again.

Good luck and good growing!

:peace:
Nearly the same set up and nute regime etc as me. Works great! Nothing wrong with air stones ;-) DWC is a great simple proven method.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Can anyone tell me whens best to start using the rhino skin?.. and how much to put in..??
Can it be used in conjuction with rhizotonic?
Cheers
I start using it early in veg but in low doses like 0.5ml/L but I rarely changed nutes during the grow. If I did regular changes I would use 1ml/L at each change. Always add the Rhino to the water first then check pH and lower it to around 7 before adding other nutes. Micro should go in first then it doesn't matter for the rest.

I actually didn't bother checking the pH with Rhino trusting it to work OK with the pH Perfectness of the rest of the nutes and never had any problems.

I never used stuff like rhizotonic but pretty sure that shouldn't be a problem either. Early days I used 35% peroxide twice a week at 0.5ml/L as a maintenance dose but after making my DIY chiller stopped the peroxide.
 

JovialGent

Active Member
Cheers oldmed.. youve been a massive help.
Im going to top up with rhizo and rhino.
I only used rhizo when they were germinating.
Ph perfect will for sure be my next nutrient buy..
Some roots have a slight brown tinge appearing and im para its developing root rot.
Im unsure of what to combat this with.. and nip it in the bud so to speak.
Ive been throwing 2L frozen bottles into the res's to maintain 18 degrees, and upped the flow from the air pump slightly..
Id put up a pic if yiu could tell..

Ive just been looking at chillers on amazon funnily enough. Way to expensive for me.. i havent got big money to keep throwing at this grow.
I found iws spares online and im considering turning this into RDWC/(with waterfalls).. but dont think 16mm hose piping (all i could find fittings for) would suffice flow for the 60L drums effectively enough..
 
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