Slow/stunted growth. First dwc

ttystikk said:

LMAO, buddy I wouldn't steer you wrong and ask around; I've been doing this for a lot longer than most.

The reason why it makes such a big difference is because of factors that aren't immediately obvious when comparing waterfalls vs air stones.

First, air stones push hot air into the water and oxygenate by blowing bubbles. This tends to lead to constant inoculation of the water with whatever is floating around and it warms the water over time.

By contrast, waterfalls don't push air and contaminants into the water. In addition, they encourage a bit of natural evaporation which tends to reduce water temperatures.

Second, air stones don't agitate or churn the water column much. Waterfalls do. This is important for ensuring adequate water flow through and around the roots, eliminating stagnant spots and maximizing nutrient delivery.

Finally and most importantly, waterfalls break surface tension and actively discourage any films that might develop on the surface of the water in the tubsite. Air stones don't do this and again, it's a critical feature in terms of disrupting the conditions that encourage pythium, algae etc to grow.

In fact, I've even deliberately poured rotten water- stagnant water that had been sitting with dead roots and had gone bad- directly into my RDWC. Absolutely nothing happened, period.

I respect your questions and I know there's a lot of bullshit out there when talking about growing weed. I've extensively tested a lot of different methods of oxygenating RDWC grows and I wouldn't steer you wrong, brother.

The best part? No grinding air pump to buy, put up with, maintain, repair or worry about. No airlines to trip over, no gooey stones to replace. Waterfalls are simpler, cheaper, far more fault tolerant and robust- and they sound lovely.

Click to expand...

Ok i will entertain and respond.

Point #1
You are under the assumption that they push hot air. The wattage (amount of heat) on an air pump is minuscule and combined with the volume of air passing through it makes for a negligible amount of heat transfer. No different than a water pump the source of the air or water will be the biggest influence on temp change.

In all likelihood the water pump would create more heat even at the same wattage due to the wattage and added friction of the impeller and the fact that the water stays in constant contact and recirculates means heat introduced stays. The air does not and a new fresh source is constantly brought in reducing the accumulation of heat. Air also adjusts much faster to ambient temps than water.

They both use surface agitation to create gas exchange and i can tell you that the amount of gas exchange that occurs is directly related to the amount of surface area it agitates. An air stone is more effective at this as in hydro the placement of the air stone generally agitates the entire surface and a waterfall does not.

Do you not use intake fans that suck air in that comes in contact with the surface if your water? You are implying that they take in all sorts of pathogens....well here is news so does all of your intakes. Carbon filters don't remove pathogens and it only take a tiny spore to start a colony so you are already introducing them. Healthy plants have defenses for all sorts of nasty's. Its usually damaged roots due to trama, nute burn,inadequate O2 etc that create the problems and you end up with root rot. You make it sound like air pumps come preloaded with all sorts of pathogens.

Air pumps and waterfalls provide evaporation that cools water through evaporation due to surface agitation. Don't just selectively apply principles. In fact air stones do more as they provide more surface area agitation.

You are kidding me air stones provide more water column mixing than waterfalls by FAR. ARE YOU FOR REAL? See this waterfall I built its using an air stone in a pvc pipe to create enough upflow of water that it sucks the sand up 24 inches off the bottom and lets it spill out over the water fall. You think you will get that kind of water flow pissing in a bucket?

Again air stones break surface tension also and again better at it. You think those little bubbles just float under the surface? Fucking amazing you say air stones don't do this... Wow you must be a paid sponser of waterfalls to come up with this shit.

I have 20 yrs growing in aquatics... don't get me started on schooling you in pythium, algae or bacteria. See the plants in that video... All live plants and not easy to grow. I can give ya the names if you wanna look them up.

Heres a news flash neither an air stone nor waterfall have any bearing on algae, pythium or bacteria in the sense you are talking.

By extensively tested you mean you have used an not encounter a problem with with no real data or science to back up your claims? That statement alone ruins any kinda of chance i would ever take advice from you. Because it obvious the extensive testing you have done is look at it and exaggerate your extremely questionable observations.


You poured stagnant water that had roots likely with pythium and other issues into your res and had no ill effects. How would this differ from an air stone? did the water fall kill it?
FUCK NO YOU HAD HEALTHY PLANTS THAT HAVE DEFENSES BECAUSE THEY ARE HEALTHY.

Now i can agree with you about the noise and tubing finally something to make sense out of.

Sorry for the rant ppl im usually not so triggered but all this misinformation out there really is getting to me lately.

Both waterfall and airstone will work... it was not my intention to bash the waterfall and there are some very effective types out there.

SMFH

JovialGent said:

Thanks very much for the responses!..

Will definitely look up seacham water conditioner..budget now doesn't allow a proper RO filter.. I use stress coat in my fish tank.. not sure if anything else is added tho. So seacham it is.
I'm assuming cal mag will then be needed after usage.

It is vented into the attic yes.. straight out the tiles as the room the tents in, is a dormer.

Ok. So the plan is to up the nutes slightly, and treat the water when I can!
Hopefully give the plants a kick....

Click to expand...

I would stop the Cal-Mag... @OldMedUser has some solid advice there too.

Aqua Man said:

Ok i will entertain and respond.

Point #1
You are under the assumption that they push hot air. The wattage (amount of heat) on an air pump is minuscule and combined with the volume of air passing through it makes for a negligible amount of heat transfer. No different than a water pump the source of the air or water will be the biggest influence on temp change.

In all likelihood the water pump would create more heat even at the same wattage due to the wattage and added friction of the impeller and the fact that the water stays in constant contact and recirculates means heat introduced stays. The air does not and a new fresh source is constantly brought in reducing the accumulation of heat. Air also adjusts much faster to ambient temps than water.

They both use surface agitation to create gas exchange and i can tell you that the amount of gas exchange that occurs is directly related to the amount of surface area it agitates. An air stone is more effective at this as in hydro the placement of the air stone generally agitates the entire surface and a waterfall does not.

Do you not use intake fans that suck air in that comes in contact with the surface if your water? You are implying that they take in all sorts of pathogens....well here is news so does all of your intakes. Carbon filters don't remove pathogens and it only take a tiny spore to start a colony so you are already introducing them. Healthy plants have defenses for all sorts of nasty's. Its usually damaged roots due to trama, nute burn,inadequate O2 etc that create the problems and you end up with root rot. You make it sound like air pumps come preloaded with all sorts of pathogens.

Air pumps and waterfalls provide evaporation that cools water through evaporation due to surface agitation. Don't just selectively apply principles. In fact air stones do more as they provide more surface area agitation.

You are kidding me air stones provide more water column mixing than waterfalls by FAR. ARE YOU FOR REAL? See this waterfall I built

its using an air stone in a pvc pipe to create enough upflow of water that it sucks the sand up 24 inches off the bottom and lets it spill out over the water fall. You think you will get that kind of water flow pissing in a bucket?

Again air stones break surface tension also and again better at it. You think those little bubbles just float under the surface? Fucking amazing you say air stones don't do this... Wow you must be a paid sponser of waterfalls to come up with this shit.

I have 20 yrs growing in aquatics... don't get me started on schooling you in pythium, algae or bacteria. See the plants in that video... All live plants and not easy to grow. I can give ya the names if you wanna look them up.

Heres a news flash neither an air stone nor waterfall have any bearing on algae, pythium or bacteria in the sense you are talking.

By extensively tested you mean you have used an not encounter a problem with with no real data or science to back up your claims? That statement alone ruins any kinda of chance i would ever take advice from you. Because it obvious the extensive testing you have done is look at it and exaggerate you extremely question observations.


You poured stagnant water that had roots likely with pythium and other issues into your res and had no ill effects. How would this differ from an air stone? did the water fall kill it?
FUCK NO YOU HAD HEALTHY PLANTS THAT HAVE DEFENSES BECAUSE THEY ARE HEALTHY.

Now i can agree with you about the noise and tubing finally something to make sense out of.

SMFH

Click to expand...

I did side by side testing and waterfalls were far more robust and resistant to root issues than air stones.

You're welcome to disagree but having grown hundreds of pounds with both over hundreds of runs I can say unequivocally that waterfalls work better. The warmer water even helped my plants metabolise faster and grow better.

Your grow, your choice.

ttystikk said:

I did side by side testing and waterfalls were far more robust and resistant to root issues than air stones.

You're welcome to disagree but having grown hundreds of pounds with both over hundreds of runs I can say unequivocally that waterfalls work better. The warmer water even helped my plants metabolise faster and grow better.

Your grow, your choice.

Click to expand...

yeah lets agree to disagree

JovialGent said:

Thanks very much for the responses!..

Will definitely look up seacham water conditioner..budget now doesn't allow a proper RO filter.. I use stress coat in my fish tank.. not sure if anything else is added tho. So seacham it is.
I'm assuming cal mag will then be needed after usage.

It is vented into the attic yes.. straight out the tiles as the room the tents in, is a dormer.

Ok. So the plan is to up the nutes slightly, and treat the water when I can!
Hopefully give the plants a kick....

Click to expand...

I would remove that foil off the tops of the pots too. Could easily get stem rot going in there. Pile some more balls on top if you're worried about light getting in tho I've never had problems leaving them open. Can always run some electrical tape around the upper levels of holes in the pots as roots mostly come out the bottom and last inch or so of the pot. Next round.

I buy my RO at a store in town for $3/20L. Hoping to get my own RO system soon but need better filtration of the input water as it comes out of a dugout on my property. We don't drink it so use RO for that too. At the tap it's pH 8+ and over 400ppm. We filter it down to 5 micron but that still leaves some fine sediment if water is left to sit for a day. Lots of tiny fish and frogs in that dugout so it's good water if it'll support life. Got lots too as the dugout is 80x50m and 4m deep.

Aqua Man said:

yeah lets agree to disagree

Click to expand...

This plant pulled over 2lb.

By all means, keep telling me what I don't know.

ttystikk said:

View attachment 4321862
This plant pulled over 2lb.

By all means, keep telling me what I don't know.

Click to expand...

And that's due to replacing your air stone with a waterfall... I'm not saying you can't grow... I'm saying your claims about your waterfall are extremely exaggerated and in some cases absolutely false. Knowing how to grow does not change that and I never once said you don't know how to grow. I mean I provided my argument if you don't like then disregard it and let other make up their mind and look into the facts.

I'm not trying to hurt your ego... who knows maybe someone misled you but i stand 100% behind what i said based on facts i presented not some pic of roots.

Aqua Man said:

And that's due to replacing your air stone with a waterfall... I'm not saying you can't grow... I'm saying your claims about your waterfall are extremely exaggerated and in some cases absolutely false. Knowing how to grow does not change that and I never once said you don't know how to grow. I mean I provided my argument if you don't like then disregard it and let other make up their mind and look into the facts.

I'm not trying to hurt your ego... who knows maybe someone misled you but i stand 100% behind what i said based on facts i presented not some pic of roots.

Click to expand...

I just showed you proof that waterfalls work in an RDWC tub that was not actively cooled.

Do it any way you like but don't tell us my approach doesn't work; the proof is in the pic.

ttystikk said:

I just showed you proof that waterfalls work in an RDWC tub that was not actively cooled.

Do it any way you like but don't tell us my approach doesn't work; the proof is in the pic.

Click to expand...

That pic proves not a dam thing about the claims you made... look back at my post and what i wrote... then tell me what in it is wrong and how it is wrong... not throw up pic some and say see.

Fuck what's next waterfalls cure cancer then post that pic up as evidence? Get fucking real. Your wrong and i showed you how you are wrong get over it. I'm not saying air stones are better... waterfalls can be just as good or better depending on the setup... I AM SAYING a lot of your claims are BS

Dam nice looking roots though... definitely give you that.

Aqua Man said:

That pic proves not a dam thing about the claims you made... look back at my post and what i wrote... then tell me what in it is wrong and how it is wrong... not throw up up some and say see.

Fuck what's next waterfalls cure cancer then post that pic up as evidence? Get fucking real. Your wrong and i showed you how you are wrong get over it.

Dam nice looking roots though... definitely give you that.

Click to expand...

That pic proves waterfalls work, or the rootball would not look like that.

Empiricism beats theorising every time.

ttystikk said:

That pic proves waterfalls work, or the rootball would not look like that.

Empiricism beats theorising every time.

Click to expand...

No theory just facts. You tell yourself what you need. Sorry if i hurt your feelings but facts are facts. No doubt waterfall works i have used them also but sure in the hell doesn't do as you claim and that doesn't mean they are not good.

Out of respect from the OP I'm not going derail this any further. If you feel the need to continue just send me a PM and we can talk it out. If not good luck to you.

Aqua Man said:

No theory just facts. You tell yourself what you need. Sorry if i hurt your feelings but facts are facts. No doubt waterfall works i have used them also but sure in the hell doesn't do as you claim and that doesn't mean they are not good.

Click to expand...

Huh?

It sure sounds like you just contradicted yourself.

'In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not.' -Yogi Barra

Aqua Man said:

Out of respect from the OP I'm not going derail this any further. If you feel the need to continue just send me a PM and we can talk it out. If not good luck to you.

Click to expand...

Show me where i said they don't work... get your shit straight. I said the CLAIMS you are making are BS... not all but the ones i responded to.

Aqua Man said:

Show me where i said they don't work... get your shit straight. I said the CLAIMS you are making are BS... not all but the ones i responded to.

Click to expand...

Relax, this is a friendly conversation.

If you disagree with something specific, I'm all ears.

Both work just as well so I can't see what the argument is about.

Nothing but airstones!

ttystikk said:

Relax, this is a friendly conversation.

If you disagree with something specific, I'm all ears.

Click to expand...

1. You state air stones do not mix the water column... not true
2. Air stones push hot air into your water... Not true
3. The evaporative cooling is no better than an air stone. in a RDWC system.
4. Air stones do not break surface tension....not true
5. Neither air stones nor waterfalls will cause algae, root rot etc.

I'm just gonna stop there.

Now in the case of roots like you have shown... they would in fact reduce the entanglement of equipment.
They do make less noise.
They are an effective alternative to air stones.
These are not new they have been around and used for decades. They are only newer to hydro.

OldMedUser said:

Both work just as well so I can't see what the argument is about.

Nothing but airstones!

View attachment 4321921

Click to expand...

That's exactly what i'm trying to say.... Very little difference not some magical device

Ok.. foils gone. I was worried about light issues as I can see the water when i look.
Foil was a temporary measure as I was looking at getting some neoprene to cover. Adding more hydroton wouldn't work.. and it' would go everywhere if I lift the lid.
I haven't added more nutes yet.. and unsure wether too as the tips on the leaf are changing very minutely as far as I can see.. so may wait another day?
If I was to buy the RO water.. filling 5 60litre drums might propose a new challenge lol.. especially having no driving licence.
Seacham prime gets delivered today! If I was to use this.. I'm still unsure as to add calmag or not.. been as the conditioner strips minerals from the water..
If i dont use in the grow I've stocked up well for my cichlid tank.
That's a sweet sandfall, and dammmn those roots

Cheers
JG

Aqua Man said:

That's exactly what i'm trying to say.... Very little difference not some magical device

Click to expand...

I think you're missing my point. Waterfalls don't increase oxygenation- full saturation is actually easy to achieve.

The advantages I found with waterfalls were many;
1. Less equipment to accomplish the same goal, thereby reducing complexity, cost and points of potential failure. RDWC requires a circulation pump anyway, so I just use that same unit attached to a manifold to evenly distribute water to all tubs- advantage being that whatever I add to the control bucket is immediately and evenly mixed- and that manifold also oxygenates because it feeds a waterfall in every tubsite.

2. I've found this approach makes the plants much less sensitive to changes in the water level, again improving robustness in the system.

3. I had root rot problems when I used airstones, and like everyone else I employed water chilling to prevent it. With waterfalls, no such problems and water chilling was no longer necessary, again leading to much lower costs, more robust operation and lower parts count.

Whether this makes sense to you or not, it works, at scale, reliably and repeatably. No magic. When empirical results differ from theory, one must reexamine the assumptions one is operating under. Waterfalls work; Mother Nature has been using them for a long time.

Roots today.. same plant.
And my tap water readings.
Looking into RO filters..
But will make do with seacham prime conditioner for now.
Will add nutes tomorrow if not showing any burn.