Root Development vs Plant Growth

Weedhound said:

root/shoot ratios and media/biomass ratios are different in hydro than in soil.

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Yes, this is something I have noted too. My sole reason for growing DWC was to study root development. The roots in a dwc grow actually seem much thinner than on a soil grow.

Although why they would be different in coco, I have no idea. As in coco, the roots are covered the same way. The soil we use, only has nutes to last a certain amount of time, so it can't be that soil contains anything special... maybe it's the density of soil that forces them to grow thicker (to push their way through the soil), as coco coir doesn't seem as heavy as soil. Although i'd have to weigh an equal amount by volume to be sure.

Ah, well that would explain the media/biomass ratios. Soil is actually heavier.

Its an old problem really.
I think that plants as like all other living things are all different and constantly changing,forever escaping our boxes so to speak.
I think we should try everything and see what happens

how about taking hydroponics to the next level and having our roots suspended in ph'd nutrient hydrogen injected with optimal oxygen chamber(careful i think that can cause a explosion). And then having the top part of the plant submerged in light nutrient water that is carbonated and a light system that is out of this world!

wafflehouselover said:

how about taking hydroponics to the next level and having our roots suspended in ph'd nutrient hydrogen injected with optimal oxygen chamber(careful i think that can cause a explosion). And then having the top part of the plant submerged in light nutrient water that is carbonated and a light system that is out of this world!

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If a plant is wet a lot then it produces very little resin

silk said:

Because in soil it takes time for h20 to reach the root system, it has to seep through the soil and may not all go towards the root system. In an aero/dwc system it takes little time at all. Also any nutrients available in soil have to also be in contact with the roots, in the above mentioned hydroponic solutions the o2/h2o and nutrients are sprayed directly onto the roots. Whatever is not absorbed falls back into the reservoir and can be used later. In a container grow, the excess of what the media or roots cannot absorb will exit the container.

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When I grew in soil, the feed used to pour through the bottom of the pot in seconds... this water is also saved on a tray below.

No matter the medium, the roots will head to the outer edges... whereas inside the centre of the medium will be a network of millions of tiny connector roots. If you scroll back a couple of pages you''ll see where I tore apart a 27 day flower root mass. A single starter root will cover any space and medium you give it, and also supply a network of other roots that greatly differ in size to do different jobs around the media, ie collect nutrients AND collect oxygen. This network of roots are all connected to just the single, main root.

Again, why do the roots need oxygen? And why when it is in abundance, aero/dwc does the upward growth of the plant excel? Access to nutrients is only part of the equation. The other part, and also the reason aero outdoes DWC is because of the oxygen or AIR.

The plant above takes in Co2 and breathes out oxygen... it doesn't seem so far fetched to me that the roots could convert oxygen into Co2 for the plant.

i don't know about that, my plants were in 60-70% humidity and they still produce a very nice amount of resin, but i didn't get to see their full streghth because i had to harvest at 5th week due to mold problems so maybe that stuff about low humdity produce more resin is a fraud.

wafflehouselover said:

i don't know about that, my plants were in 60-70% humidity and they still produce a very nice amount of resin, but i didn't get to see their full streghth because i had to harvest at 5th week due to mold problems.

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That doesnt surprise me in the least,the mould that is.
To damn wet and humid dude lol.

yea thats what happens when u live in the south in the summer stupid weather, every yr it gets hotter and hotter and especially if you live by the coast all that humid.

wafflehouselover said:

yea thats what happens when u live in the south in the summer stupid weather, every yr it gets hotter and hotter and especially if you live by the coast all that humid.

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I live by the sea and its wet here a lot,i use a dehumidifier and a fan

electricity cost and the way i have my setup(pulling free air/co2 in from the outside) its hard to use a dehumidifier.

wafflehouselover said:

electricity cost and the way i have my setup(pulling free air/co2 in from the outside) its hard to use a dehumidifier.

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My dehumidifier was a pound and the fan was 6.99=7.99
Losing a load of bud to mould==-799 pounds

It cannot be denied that oxygen plays a major role in upward plant development... nor that when it is in abundance and readily available to the root system that the upward growth of a plant goes into overdrive.

The same thing happens when Co2 is given to the plant above.

We know that oxygen is not what helps the plant grow, as the plant breathes this out. We know that a plant can grow just as well with a smaller root system... so the oxygen can't have anything or much to do with the root development. We know that roots actively search for oxygen, hence the addition of perlite in soil/coco grows. It was believed (at least, by me) that roots use the oxygen to grow big and healthy, for THEMSELVES, so that they continue collecting nutes and do it better, etc. But this doesn't make sense.

What does make sense is that somehow the roots do the opposite to the plant above, they turn oxygen into co2, only they don't breathe it out but rather pump it up into the plant above.

i think of it not as a lost but almost even out because i dont get the full potential of my buds, if i harvest early i don't get the benefit of a full grown plant thats all there is.

skunkushybrid said:

It cannot be denied that oxygen plays a major role in upward plant development... nor that when it is in abundance and readily available to the root system that the upward growth of a plant goes into overdrive.

The same thing happens when Co2 is given to the plant above.

We know that oxygen is not what helps the plant grow, as the plant breathes this out. We know that a plant can grow just as well with a smaller root system... so the oxygen can't have anything or much to do with the root development. We know that roots actively search for oxygen, hence the addition of perlite in soil/coco grows. It was believed (at least, by me) that roots use the oxygen to grow big and healthy, for THEMSELVES, so that they continue collecting nutes and do it better, etc. But this doesn't make sense.

What does make sense is that somehow the roots do the opposite to the plant above, they turn oxygen into co2, only they don't breathe it out but rather pump it up into the plant above.

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Agreed, and now we all know that its the plants health development that ALLOW the plant to develope the most resin it can possibly can.

wafflehouselover said:

how about taking hydroponics to the next level and having our roots suspended in ph'd nutrient hydrogen injected with optimal oxygen chamber(careful i think that can cause a explosion). And then having the top part of the plant submerged in light nutrient water that is carbonated and a light system that is out of this world!

Click to expand...

My friend has also done this....as an expirement.....02 pumped in under pressiure (3x amount the plant would receive normally in a hydro app) WILL cause explosive growth (ha ha pun intended)In fact he said the plants just went NUTS with growing. But since he used to grow for hydroponic food applications he found that the system was not really practical or cost effective on a larger scale.

skunkushybrid said:

When I grew in soil, the feed used to pour through the bottom of the pot in seconds... this water is also saved on a tray below.

No matter the medium, the roots will head to the outer edges... whereas inside the centre of the medium will be a network of millions of tiny connector roots. If you scroll back a couple of pages you''ll see where I tore apart a 27 day flower root mass. A single starter root will cover any space and medium you give it, and also supply a network of other roots that greatly differ in size to do different jobs around the media, ie collect nutrients AND collect oxygen. This network of roots are all connected to just the single, main root.

Again, why do the roots need oxygen? And why when it is in abundance, aero/dwc does the upward growth of the plant excel? Access to nutrients is only part of the equation. The other part, and also the reason aero outdoes DWC is because of the oxygen or AIR.

The plant above takes in Co2 and breathes out oxygen... it doesn't seem so far fetched to me that the roots could convert oxygen into Co2 for the plant.

Click to expand...

I answered your questions and you restated your questions. So I can only think to believe that you disagree with me but yet won't bother to investigate further. That's fine by me, but if you are trying to investigate this process than you should actually bother to learn what I am talking about in order to discuss the topic. If you can give a plant all the elements and condition it needs to thrive then it will thrive. Going from that point you need to use the scientific method to isolate something as specific as "roots may create co2".

This is why your line of questioning is spiraling into oblivion. A plant converts Co2 into sugar during photosynthesis. It is true that when the plant uses this energy in cellular respiration some co2 is produced and is also used by the photosynthesis process. However, if you are correct, the plant would be making co2 only to convert it again into a usable form of energy... This is not logical from a scientific base or general reasoning.

I have only good intentions here, I don't want to come off as condescending. You are a much more skilled grower than I, however I think your abilities and experience are result driven and not primarily based on understanding science. I hope I was helpful in this post.

silk said:

I answered your questions and you restated your questions. So I can only think to believe that you disagree with me but yet won't bother to investigate further. That's fine by me, but if you are trying to investigate this process than you should actually bother to learn what I am talking about in order to discuss the topic. If you can give a plant all the elements and condition it needs to thrive then it will thrive. Going from that point you need to use the scientific method to isolate something as specific as "roots may create co2".

This is why your line of questioning is spiraling into oblivion. A plant converts Co2 into sugar during photosynthesis. It is true that when the plant uses this energy in cellular respiration some co2 is produced and is also used by the photosynthesis process. However, if you are correct, the plant would be making co2 only to convert it again into a usable form of energy... This is not logical from a scientific base or general reasoning.

I have only good intentions here, I don't want to come off as condescending. You are a much more skilled grower than I, however I think your abilities and experience are result driven and not primarily based on understanding science. I hope I was helpful in this post.

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Yes, you have been... very helpful. And you are quite correct, as I've already stated I'm more creative than scientific, although i do have a high IQ so am able to understand things fairly easily.

So, what if the roots (by the way, from what i have read so far roots are very little studied) convert the oxygen into co2 and the plant then converts this into sugars like usual. How is this statement illogical?

I've gone back down to 2 feeds per week. This is all they need. Amazing, but that's it.

This heavy feeding schedule i anticipated has not happened. Basically there's a tray, sitting on the tray are around 11 plants. 6 of which are the main plants. They are on 12litres of feed a week between all 11. Obviously the front 6 will receive the most feed, the tray is also slanted slightly so that the excess water is given priority by the top 6 plants. So let's say that the top 6 are on only 8litres of feed a week between them.

This doesn't sit right, entirely in my mind. Unless the larger pots are just generally much more wasteful... Growth rate has not slowed, nor budding. So far they seem on target, so I must be worrying about nothing.

The last pic' is of the background plants.

lets think about this logically, in the photosynthesis equation given a cuople of pages back, there is only CO2 and H2O and energy need to photsynthesize. the plant then uses the sugars produced from the photosynthesis to grow. what if that isn't the only process used to create useful sugars for the plant? If all you need is carbon, oxygen and hydrogen, coudn't there be another process that uses O2, carbon and H2O to photosynthesize?
This may be implausable, it's been a while since I took chemistry.

However, the empirical data is that plants do better with more O2 provided to the roots. Now knowing this, regardless of knowing HOW the plant uses the oxygen. Is it not concievable (at least as a grounds for some experimentation) that a plant which has CO2 available to the root system, if not taking the CO2 directly to the upward growth, could bond the CO2 to something which will take the Carbon atom, and result in O2 as a byproduct? This very well could be one of the myriad of processes that a plant undergoes, just happening to reult in useful O2. Nature's kind of good at multi-tasking like that.

On a side note, what are the results of H2O2 being added to the soil (or hydro/aero solution)? Could the "free" O atom be neccesary (or at least useful) for some process in the roots?

Basically, I don't think there's enough data either way to prove or disprove this theory. Fourtunately, we don't absolutely need to know all the internal working of our plants. We only need to know what works. I think until we se some tests and results, we really can't solve this question. When I get my new grow room up and running, I might do a sideXsideXside comparison of CO2,H2O2, and plain H2O added to the soil.

Oh, and the plants are diong pretty good, budding seems to become along alot better than my last grow, and so far I haven't seen any signs of problems from the roots' close quarters. Hopefully pics in the next couple of days. I've got a friends digi for a few days so I'll try and take some good pics whlie I got it.

Good luck.

skunkushybrid said:

So, what if the roots (by the way, from what i have read so far roots are very little studied) convert the oxygen into co2 and the plant then converts this into sugars like usual. How is this statement illogical?

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Well the statement isn't illogical just the premise. The best way I can explain is by asking you a question: What leads you to believe that the roots convert oxygen into co2? Carbon needs to be fixated to the o2 to become co2. But what the plant does is remove the carbon from the co2 and fixates it to what will be glucose.

So if your theory is correct than a plant will create co2 by adding carbon to o2 then it will then take the carbon back to create glucose. I think if this was the case it would have been discovered by Calvin and/or Benson. Check out some reading on the Calvin cycle also called the Calvin-Benson cycle. The branch of study is called "light independent reaction. I think if you investigate this further it will help you with many of your questions.