PK 13/14 before or after shooting powder???

Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
masonite420 said:
Let me dispell the myth...The bottom line is that you get the cleanest results. In look and in taste and that is what house and garden is all about.
Click to expand...
Hate to pop your bubble, but they don't give a shit about this promulgated falsehood/myth regarding "finishing your product". They're in it for the money. The way to "finish your product" is to maintain healthy leaves until harvest.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Guys like you are predictable. You'll believe a money grubbing snake oil saleman before you'll get off your lazy butt and do your homework by sourcing solid facts from a professional, not a partisan vendor out to make a quick buck on the back of some poor fool.

UB
Click to expand...

"experience of the past" for sure. I do recall someone saying that you don't even grow anymore. As for seasoned horticulturist, your profile has like 3 pictures of buds in it. Your avatar photo looks like you took it with a Polaroid 15 years ago and yeah that's a nice looking plant..I achieved the same or larger on my first grow. Funny how you demand everyone to back up their claims with multiple successive grows with control groups yet you readily sputter out your "snake oil" spiel without any of the same controlled studies to back it up. Hell, its your signature for crying out loud. You got some P values and anova anallysis numbers for me too look at to determine if there is no statistically significant difference, would love to see it.

I'm just a sucker for slick advertizing with no real understanding of much of anything really. Even though I graduated cum laude with 400 level course work in genetics, organic chemistry, plant physiology, plant ecology, commercial horticulture, and population dynamics I am still unable to make informed decisions in the horticultural additive realm.

But, since you did ask "oh yeah, what are they" (Hormones) . The specific hormones in shooting powder that are also used in the commercial flower trade are auxin, gibberellins, and I also suspect that it contains cytokins but when I spoke with the people at house and garden..they would only tell me "hormones produced from bacterial processes". I didn't expect that they would distill down their whole manufacturing process for me as most of these companies keep their formulas very well guarded but cytokins are produced commercially from bacteria and they work in concert to increase flower production and delay senescence. The suppression of senescence is really the key here and the reason that maturation is slightly delayed when using shooting powder (about a week to 10 days). This info is sourced from the book Life:the science of biology which is sitting on the book shelf in front of me.
Here is a link to some of the discussion on the role of plant hormones but you only get to read every other page. You have to pay money to the snake oil salesman to get the whole book..
http://books.google.com/books?id=ANT8VB14oBUC&pg=PA786&lpg=PA786&dq=hormones+in+commercial+flower+production&source=bl&ots=cxWL6xKlba&sig=L6VttCAs0QbtvynrZa7TWPPBCUg&hl=en&ei=_KUsTZizKZC-sQOr1uCHBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hormones in commercial flower production&f=false

If anyone is actually interested in plant hormones and what they do or has something to add besides conjecture I would love to hear it. Here is a link or two about plant hormones to get you started.

http://www.essortment.com/all/whataregibbere_rjdn.htm

http://www.biog1105-1106.org/demos/105/unit5/media/planthormones.pdf

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/how-grow-marijuana/72181-what-do-hormones-growth-regulators-contain.html

http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/abstract/50/6/759

the absolute best source for information is the book I quoted above. It is VERY dense reading but you will find that if you have a basic understanding of how these hormones work and are able to speak intelligently about them, if you contact various nutrient companies they enjoy talking about what there products contain and the strategy that they are employing to get results. They are not going to e-mail you tests showing their EXACT compositions and make ups and not should you expect them to. If you called pepsi and asked them, "hey, what are the exact components and concentrations of the compounds in your product" they would laugh at you. It takes money to develop these formulas and they are trade secrets. Just as KFC wouldn't tell you what spice concentrations they use, nutrient manufacturers are not going to divulge this information to you.

I only posted in this thread because the... this is all marketing snake oil bullshit and all you need is fertilizer sold at walmart... statement is in my view, a narrow minded over simplification of marijuana production, plant physiology and the role that additives can have.
 
masonite420

masonite420

Active Member
Don Gin and Ton said:
its actually raw mono PK i found out a while back. dyed orange of course haha all of the above is true it does what it says on the pack but so does a bottle of canna PK13/14 if you ask me. they may have added a little of this n that to it but the difference is negligeable imho
Click to expand...
[FONT=&quot]The difference is the PK ratio difference…Shooting powder has higher nubers which you need in the late stage. House & Garden’s version of PK 13/14 is called Top Booster. The difference is H&G takes it a bit further by using Top Booster only in the last 4 days of week 5 (in an 8 week cycle). It is used to trigger the late flowering period. You then use the shooting powder in week 6, double it up in week 7 before the flush in week 8. This gives you a gradual incline of P and K until the very end….. Peace and good luck[/FONT]
 
masonite420

masonite420

Active Member
Uncle Ben said:
In the real world, the two salts they're packaging would cost about a dime, if that much. You're paying high dollar prices for hype. Such a product if not used in conjunction with some N will work against you. However, I notice they say to use it along with your basic nutrient, but why all the bullshit and waste of money? Just buy a lb. of Jack's Classic Blossom Booster for about $4.00 USD and get it all. It's a perfectly designed product using high quality salts, a 10-30-20 with micros including an increased amount of Mg to help ward off chlorosis.
Click to expand...
You can't throw Jack's classic bloom booster into a hydroponic reservoir! Try running a side by side…I think you will be surprised! Shooting powder rocks! Peace and good luck
 
masonite420

masonite420

Active Member
Silky Shagsalot said:
the back will tell you nothing.... no one knows what's in it. it's junk, and overpriced junk to boot!
Click to expand...
I will tell you anything you want to know.....message me or respond to the thread..... Wonder why there is so much controversy over House & Garden?....Because it is a great product that is taking over with revolutionary products. Stay in the past and get left behind. People always refuse change. Especially the old grumps. By the way, If you look at the amount you use versus cost, H&G is the cheapest when you run an entire line with additives. If you want to run an advanced nute set up, not 2 dollar granny’s best, H&G is the cheapest per gallon. Go ahead and research it. Peace and good luck
 
S

suTraGrow

Well-Known Member
legallyflying said:
"experience of the past" for sure. I do recall someone saying that you don't even grow anymore. As for seasoned horticulturist, your profile has like 3 pictures of buds in it. Your avatar photo looks like you took it with a Polaroid 15 years ago and yeah that's a nice looking plant..I achieved the same or larger on my first grow. Funny how you demand everyone to back up their claims with multiple successive grows with control groups yet you readily sputter out your "snake oil" spiel without any of the same controlled studies to back it up. Hell, its your signature for crying out loud. You got some P values and anova anallysis numbers for me too look at to determine if there is no statistically significant difference, would love to see it.

I'm just a sucker for slick advertizing with no real understanding of much of anything really. Even though I graduated cum laude with 400 level course work in genetics, organic chemistry, plant physiology, plant ecology, commercial horticulture, and population dynamics I am still unable to make informed decisions in the horticultural additive realm.

But, since you did ask "oh yeah, what are they" (Hormones) . The specific hormones in shooting powder that are also used in the commercial flower trade are auxin, gibberellins, and I also suspect that it contains cytokins but when I spoke with the people at house and garden..they would only tell me "hormones produced from bacterial processes". I didn't expect that they would distill down their whole manufacturing process for me as most of these companies keep their formulas very well guarded but cytokins are produced commercially from bacteria and they work in concert to increase flower production and delay senescence. The suppression of senescence is really the key here and the reason that maturation is slightly delayed when using shooting powder (about a week to 10 days). This info is sourced from the book Life:the science of biology which is sitting on the book shelf in front of me.
Here is a link to some of the discussion on the role of plant hormones but you only get to read every other page. You have to pay money to the snake oil salesman to get the whole book..
http://books.google.com/books?id=ANT8VB14oBUC&pg=PA786&lpg=PA786&dq=hormones+in+commercial+flower+production&source=bl&ots=cxWL6xKlba&sig=L6VttCAs0QbtvynrZa7TWPPBCUg&hl=en&ei=_KUsTZizKZC-sQOr1uCHBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hormones in commercial flower production&f=false

If anyone is actually interested in plant hormones and what they do or has something to add besides conjecture I would love to hear it. Here is a link or two about plant hormones to get you started.

http://www.essortment.com/all/whataregibbere_rjdn.htm

http://www.biog1105-1106.org/demos/105/unit5/media/planthormones.pdf

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/how-grow-marijuana/72181-what-do-hormones-growth-regulators-contain.html

http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/abstract/50/6/759

the absolute best source for information is the book I quoted above. It is VERY dense reading but you will find that if you have a basic understanding of how these hormones work and are able to speak intelligently about them, if you contact various nutrient companies they enjoy talking about what there products contain and the strategy that they are employing to get results. They are not going to e-mail you tests showing their EXACT compositions and make ups and not should you expect them to. If you called pepsi and asked them, "hey, what are the exact components and concentrations of the compounds in your product" they would laugh at you. It takes money to develop these formulas and they are trade secrets. Just as KFC wouldn't tell you what spice concentrations they use, nutrient manufacturers are not going to divulge this information to you.

I only posted in this thread because the... this is all marketing snake oil bullshit and all you need is fertilizer sold at walmart... statement is in my view, a narrow minded over simplification of marijuana production, plant physiology and the role that additives can have.
Click to expand...
:clap: Nicely put *Subscribed* very interested in the opposing argument.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
I'm not really interested about "the opposition" so to speak. Hormones cam have dramatic effects would love to hear peoples experience. Perhaps a new thread?
 
V

volumecutter

Active Member
i thought shooting powder was to start flowereing amd was a great ammont of pk (mostly p) that gets them to "shoot out buds) like week 1-3 then a pk for week 4-6 then a finisher (fox farm uses open seasame then beastie bloomz then cha ching) so i thought open sesame was the shooting powder equivilent. I must be mixing these up then from what im reading but im pretty sure
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
legallyflying said:
I'm just a sucker for slick advertizing with no real understanding of much of anything really. Even though I graduated cum laude with 400 level course work in genetics, organic chemistry, plant physiology, plant ecology, commercial horticulture, and population dynamgics I am still unable to make informed decisions in the horticultural additive realm.
Click to expand...
Right.

There is no question that PGR's will induce certain plant responses. Whether or not a grower is pleased with the outcome is the issue. You might end up with a bunch of twisted plants that fail to bloom.

"It's a trade secret" is the oldest trick in the book (see the following post).

Good luck with your crap shoot,
UB
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
masonite420 said:
....Because it is a great product that is taking over with revolutionary products.
Click to expand...
That's what they all say. I was interested (and have tried) "miracle products" while you was still messin' in your drawers. Here's a few links that will open the eyes of those who think they have found the Holy Grail of snake oils:


Myths and Realities of Non-traditional Products or Programs
http://frec.cropsci.illinois.edu/1991/report1/index.htm

http://forages.tamu.edu/PDF/Alternative.pdf

Does the following sound familiar?


Within each of these product category groups, a wide variety of materials or programs have been sold. Development of the NCR-103 committee listing on products, claims, ingredients, and companies (which currently identifies over 315 products) showed that some common trends were evident.
  1. Products are advertised as "natural" "organic" or "work with nature". Many companies appear to be linking themselves to the sustainable agriculture movement.
  2. The same product may be sold under several names. For example, the paper trail of a blue-green algae product shows that it has at' various times since 1973 been sold as Agralife, Agrovita, Genesis II, Planterra, Terra Salvo, Agrispon, Nitro/Max, Reward, Respond, and Soil Inoculant.
  3. Relatively low rates of application are used, although cost of application tends to be about $6-12 per acre, as this is what farmers seem to be willing to spend.
  4. The product mode of action is unspecified or is a "trade secret".
  5. Testimonials are a primary sales technique and sales campaigns usually precede replicated research trials. The decision to buy and use a product is, therefore, often determined by the skill of the salesperson not the efficacy of the product.
 
masonite420

masonite420

Active Member
volumecutter said:
i thought shooting powder was to start flowereing amd was a great ammont of pk (mostly p) that gets them to "shoot out buds) like week 1-3 then a pk for week 4-6 then a finisher (fox farm uses open seasame then beastie bloomz then cha ching) so i thought open sesame was the shooting powder equivilent. I must be mixing these up then from what im reading but im pretty sure
Click to expand...
Although Shooting powder could be used in the first 2 weeks because it is simply a high p/k booster…They say to only use it in the end….Phosphorus and potassium are simply what the plant needs at those times and I am sure it wouldn’t hurt to use it in the beginning but I would just stick with open sesame since that is its job …and then use shooting at the end. Proven to restart aggressive flowering, Shooting Powder induces a second surge of flower production during the last three weeks of the flowering cycle, resulting in a 30% increase in yield. Peace and good luck
 
masonite420

masonite420

Active Member
Uncle Ben said:
That's what they all say. I was interested (and have tried) "miracle products" while you was still messin' in your drawers. Here's a few links that will open the eyes of those who think they have found the Holy Grail of snake oils:
Click to expand...
Well....if you do hydro....House and garden’s base nutrients are a simple two part solution that is very clean when mixed. In fact of all the hydro solutions that I have used, it is the cleanest and easiest to use. Aqua Flakes A&B are sold together and are very concentrated. 5 liters of each will cost you $75 total. Rarely will ever you use over 2 teaspoons of each. There is also no need to switch to a bloom formula, which saves you even more money. If you don’t like the technology and advancements they have made with enzymes and root stimulants then then use your old stuff, but I am telling you, you are missing out. Things do change my friend. The question is….are you willing to accept change? I think you should try it! Peace and good luck.
 
K

KEYBOARD WARRIOR

Member
Ive been growing a few years now and ive only started using shooting powder, last grow was 16 400w - 4 plants - 13 pound which was 3 more then the previous one

It works
 
a mongo frog

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
KEYBOARD WARRIOR said:
Ive been growing a few years now and ive only started using shooting powder, last grow was 16 400w - 4 plants - 13 pound which was 3 more then the previous one

It works
Click to expand...
wait,what!!!!! 16 400 watters and only 4 plants. and that kind of weight? i must be missing something.
 
A

Afka

Active Member
I met up with the "phD" and a few sales reps for H&G. They are FULL of crap. I was at a freaking weekend horticulture trade conference and they were hawkin' their "complete A+B" alongside 13 or so additives. When I asked why they had so many additives, they started explaining why this one and that one touting their benifits in pseudo-botany and always dodging my questions about formulation, comparisons to other products or their incredibly high prices. They wouldn't give me samples and seemed to be more than happy to be done with me and my cohorts. We were all horticulture students at the time, and they knew that we knew what was up.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Afka said:
I met up with the "phD" and a few sales reps for H&G. They are FULL of crap. I was at a freaking weekend horticulture trade conference and they were hawkin' their "complete A+B" alongside 13 or so additives. When I asked why they had so many additives, they started explaining why this one and that one touting their benifits in pseudo-botany and always dodging my questions about formulation, comparisons to other products or their incredibly high prices. They wouldn't give me samples and seemed to be more than happy to be done with me and my cohorts. We were all horticulture students at the time, and they knew that we knew what was up.
Click to expand...
Aren't the games being played out interesting? You're learning.
 
A

asilsweater

Active Member
Ur absolutely right ub,but so is da guy with da degree!most of these companies prey on da uneducated,but also keep in mind dat these companies are also chasing da same dollar, they understand dat in order to get dat dollar,they must put out a superior product than their competitor!!word does get around when a superior products works better,therefore farmers will purchase it and try it!!! All farmers have to do is spend a little time researching da product and they will come to a conclusion if it fits into their fert schedule!! By da way dont u just love wen u catch a company like an repackaging watered down molasses as a finisher or botanicare and sugar water as sweet lol homebrewer thanks for leading me to dynagrow products,best freaking products ive ever used hands down and ive used an,foxfarm,botanicare and sugar peak!! I highly recomeend u guys get in touch with hb!!!
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
asilsweater said:
Ur absolutely right ub,but so is da guy with da degree!
Click to expand...
University doctors of horticultural are scientists. They are non-partisan and it should be obvious that they do not have any monetary gain regarding their positions. See my new thread in Advanced regarding one doctor who debunks all the myths that the cannabis shysters use to pad their pockets.

A doctor working at AN or HG or one of the other cannabis oil companies? I'd like to see his credentials.

"Word" aka anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing to me, only bonafide empirical field studies replicated 3 times have any merit.


UB
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top