Organic soil grow, necessary to flush?

kingofqueen said:

How can you be sure your soil is living though how can one confirm this?

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It is. Trust him. That is the basis of organics and he has it right. This is ancient horticulture knowledge. If the soil was not living his plants would be starved because he doesn't add food.

Under a microscope you can actually see the microscopic soil organisms. Hopefully a diverse and thriving community

The rest of what he said only applies to slow release growing outdoors using no soluble food and lots of tea.

Matt Rize said:

It is. Trust him. That is the basis of organics and he has it right. This is ancient horticulture knowledge. If the soil was not living his plants would be starved because he doesn't add food.

Under a microscope you can actually see the microscopic soil organisms. Hopefully a diverse and thriving community

The rest of what he said only applies to slow release growing outdoors using no soluble food and lots of tea.

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You took me out of context there bro . I'm organic also and I would like to know how you can tell . Lets say your new to organics and run in to nutrient/ph problems where normally you would flush to correct ,so how can one trust his whole grow has living soil and not flush and trust it what signs are there to tell.

kingofqueen said:

You took me out of context there bro . I'm organic also and I would like to know how you can tell . Lets say your new to organics and run in to nutrient/ph problems where normally you would flush to correct ,so how can one trust his whole grow has living soil and not flush and trust it what signs are there to tell.

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He does outside in huge pots only, much different than indoors. For him its all about getting the mix right (food and pH balance) and not doing too much after that other than adding more life and H20 to his giant smart pots. Simple old school natural and organic growing...m'eh. Give me something properly flushed.

"Beyond all of that, the herb needs to be dried slowly and properly cured; there is still a lot going on inside of the cells that make up the buds we just harvested. The THC undergoes a change into its more psychoactive forms, and the chlorophyll breaks down. So while I have never smoked weed that tasted like guano, I have smoked some that tasted like chemicals because it was likely grown with synthetics and not properly flushed."

I think you all need to re-read this part and realize Ed was growing before most of you were born. You don't need to flush organics...... If you are using bottled organic you might have to because most of that shit has more then they tell you on the label, and I don't need to waste my money on bottles of nutrients. Like I said my herb is clean and as tasty as I have ever had, because of the correct drying and cure process. When you water, the whole way through with just plain tap and molasses, what exactly am I flushing out? Nothing. Even using AACT you dont need to flush.....

I have used PBP, Bio Biz and General Organic bottle crap products. They are ALL mislabled and basically got yanked from all the stores in Oregon, because they dont list EXACTLY what is in the product. This goes for Big Mikes AN organic line too. And I use the word Organic very lightly when it comes to these misleading products.

Say what you will but I can guarantee you your damn throat won't burn when you smoke what I grow, and I dont flush.

Matt is correct when he tells you about living soil, my plants would be dead or dying if the soil web wasn't diverse and thriving.

kingofqueen said:

You took me out of context there bro . I'm organic also and I would like to know how you can tell . Lets say your new to organics and run in to nutrient/ph problems where normally you would flush to correct ,so how can one trust his whole grow has living soil and not flush and trust it what signs are there to tell.

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I perform run-off pH tests on each component of my grow mediums before mixing them to ensure I don't have a bad component. I then pH test a run-off sample batch of the mixed grow medium. That's it for pH testing. I've not experienced any nutrient deficiencies with in-ground or container growing. Maintenance during plant life cycles consists of a drench and foliar AACT application during vegetation, periodic neem oil treatments (next year I'll include neem meal in my grow medium), an AACT drench application during flowering and water as required.

madodah said:

I perform run-off pH tests on each component of my grow mediums before mixing them to ensure I don't have a bad component. I then pH test a run-off sample batch of the mixed grow medium. That's it for pH testing. I've not experienced any nutrient deficiencies with in-ground or container growing. Maintenance during plant life cycles consists of a drench and foliar AACT application during vegetation, periodic neem oil treatments (next year I'll include neem meal in my grow medium), an AACT drench application during flowering and water as required.

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Thanks for the reply . I,m new to organics and growing pot in general . I haven,t been worried about ph at all I just let my tap set out and water away with it ,but I grow vegies outside and learned recently that my tap water was raising the ph in my soil over time.
So now I,m on my second grow and dont want that hitch . So I have switched to RO water but it,s PH is 7 and my nutes are akaline.
So I need a trusted tested organic ph down . IDK what to do so I<M using chemical ph down till I can be assured of a good method.
I started checking my runoff too never did that b4. So to sum it up the ph down is my problem now once that is taken care of I<LL be organic .

kingofqueen said:

Thanks for the reply . I,m new to organics and growing pot in general . I haven,t been worried about ph at all I just let my tap set out and water away with it ,but I grow vegies outside and learned recently that my tap water was raising the ph in my soil over time.
So now I,m on my second grow and dont want that hitch . So I have switched to RO water but it,s PH is 7 and my nutes are akaline.
So I need a trusted tested organic ph down . IDK what to do so I<M using chemical ph down till I can be assured of a good method.
I started checking my runoff too never did that b4. So to sum it up the ph down is my problem now once that is taken care of I<LL be organic .

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My well water is a consistent 7.0. As an offset I use peat moss as one of my grow medium components (4.0-4.5pH) and get a consistent 6.6 pH on my grow medium run-off tests. I suggest designing your next grow medium with component(s) that compensate for the water. I know a couple of serious indoor growers who went to organic living soil just to avoid their seemingly never-ending pH problems.

plaguedog said:

"Beyond all of that, the herb needs to be dried slowly and properly cured; there is still a lot going on inside of the cells that make up the buds we just harvested. The THC undergoes a change into its more psychoactive forms, and the chlorophyll breaks down. So while I have never smoked weed that tasted like guano, I have smoked some that tasted like chemicals because it was likely grown with synthetics and not properly flushed."

I think you all need to re-read this part and realize Ed was growing before most of you were born. You don't need to flush organics...... If you are using bottled organic you might have to because most of that shit has more then they tell you on the label, and I don't need to waste my money on bottles of nutrients. Like I said my herb is clean and as tasty as I have ever had, because of the correct drying and cure process. When you water, the whole way through with just plain tap and molasses, what exactly am I flushing out? Nothing. Even using AACT you dont need to flush.....

I have used PBP, Bio Biz and General Organic bottle crap products. They are ALL mislabled and basically got yanked from all the stores in Oregon, because they dont list EXACTLY what is in the product. This goes for Big Mikes AN organic line too. And I use the word Organic very lightly when it comes to these misleading products.

Say what you will but I can guarantee you your damn throat won't burn when you smoke what I grow, and I dont flush.

Matt is correct when he tells you about living soil, my plants would be dead or dying if the soil web wasn't diverse and thriving.

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Or you'd be pouring hundreds of dollars of supplements and a lot of time into it in an attempt to grow plants.

Kingofqueen:

To get rid of pH adjusters you have two real organic options. My advice: do both.

1) Adjust your potting mix to be pH balanced from the start, using peat to drop the pH like maddy said.

2) Adjust your water pH using your nutes and supplements. THE HIGHEST QUALITY BOTTLED FOOD IS pH ADJUSTED FOR CANNABIS.
ie. hygrozyme is super low pH and will drop pH, and when I mix my BioCanna nutes the pH is always right at 6.4.

When I lived in the midwest, pH wasn't an issue. When I lived on the east coast pH was too acidic. When I lived in Washington State the water was amazing. Here in Cali, the water sucks, way alkaline. Gotta roll with it.

ps edit: maddy wishes I spent that much, but REALITY: I spend less than $50/round on supplements and get $800/p more for being veganic.

Typically we can see various organisms in our soil. 'Molds' (fungus) for instance, they're not all bad; don't freak out if you see some white fuzz in the crevices of your soil, or little patches of green or green perlite (likely just trichoderma). Some fungi assist in decomposition of organic matter, making nutrients available. The end/ecto-mycorrhizal fungi form a symbiotic relationship with the roots, utilizing it's pervasive mycelial network to seek out nutrients and water throughout the soil.
With the naked eye you might even see some bugs; most commonly springtails and predator mites, which are harmless and can even be beneficial. Predatory mites are typically orange in color, resembling very small spiders with fat bodies. If you have them, you'll want them to stay because they eat various pests that you don't want, and their eggs and larvae such as spider mites, fungus gnats and thrips.

What you wont be able to see without a microscope are the protozoa, nematodes, and of course- the ever ubiquitous and all important bacteria.

Matt Rize said:

Kingofqueen:

To get rid of pH adjusters you have two real organic options. My advice: do both.

1) Adjust your potting mix to be pH balanced from the start, using peat to drop the pH like maddy said.

2) Adjust your water pH using your nutes and supplements. THE HIGHEST QUALITY BOTTLED FOOD IS pH ADJUSTED FOR CANNABIS.
ie. hygrozyme is super low pH and will drop pH, and when I mix my BioCanna nutes the pH is always right at 6.4.

When I lived in the midwest, pH wasn't an issue. When I lived on the east coast pH was too acidic. When I lived in Washington State the water was amazing. Here in Cali, the water sucks, way alkaline. Gotta roll with it.

ps edit: maddy wishes I spent that much, but REALITY: I spend less than $50/round on supplements and get $800/p more for being veganic.

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Good for you. I see proud images of 'lineups' all over cannabis forums that are in the hundreds of dollars. I read of growers using Fox Farms or such for $14/1.5 cf when there are regional potting soils with far better, organic nutrient packages selling for $4cf.

Somebody has to pay for the advertising, seminars and such.

madodah said:

Somebody has to pay for the advertising, seminars and such.

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Just let them man. I figure: anyone who sticks to this long enough will either go your style (outdoors/teas) or the complete opposite (indoors/chemy/hydro). And everything in-between is experimentation. Gotta let 'em experiment. No one believes anything until they learn first hand.

GRAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol keep it real Matt

When you feed your plants synthetics, the nutrients are simply broken down so they are readily available to the plant. When feeding organic sources, you are still feeding those same nutrients to the plant, they are simply from different sources, and because they are organic, they are not as broken down and readily available to the plant. This will, however, still convert over time to the same as a synthetic will. For this, a flush will still be necessary. For organics, if you feed properly there's little chance you are going to have overfed, nutrient filled plants that smell funky like you can with synthetics. But there will still be a good qty of nutrients, sugars, & chlorophyll in the plants stores. When you get "hay-like" bud, it is because it's chlorophyll contents are way too high. It is for this reason that it is recommended for growers to flush their plants and allow the plant to feed on the remaining nutrients in the grow medium for the roots to take up, and then once all that is gone, they will start feeding on the fan leaves and yellowing off, just as any plant naturally does in autumn/fall in mother nature. And this is all coming from an organic grower. But I can swear by the fact that while organics taste the best, they achieve that much more when you take the time to atleast flush for 5-7 days for soil.

Flushing is definitely a chemical brainchild.

Mazar i Shariff said:

But I can swear by the fact that while organics taste the best, they achieve that much more when you take the time to atleast flush for 5-7 days for soil.

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agreed, one of those "you have to see it to believe it" things. if you have been overfeeding your soluble organics, then 5-15 days flush, depending.

madodah said:

Good for you.... I read of growers using Fox Farms or such for $14/1.5 cf when there are regional potting soils with far better, organic nutrient packages selling for $4cf.

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Hey, isn't Sub's super soil recipe based on one of these "Fox Farms or such" soils? I mean, he is sub, most likely gets it by the palette for free just so he will post pictures of the products here. Yet I get accused of selling for the companies, cha. If anyone here should be accused of taking money from the nute companies it would surely be him before me...no?

But in REALITY, I, much like sub, am simply here to share. I don't give a damn how anyone grows unless you want me to give a damn.

" A good organic soil should cost between $8-10 per 30 lb. bag. To get a really good idea of what I consider to be a balanced soil, take a look at the ingredients of a product called Roots Organic:" sub's thread

But still... how do you feel about that? Should the super soil be based on a peat and/or coco and/or perlite mix that one can get from the nursery?

EH?

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

Pretty easy to understand, and why flushing doesn't really do a da/v\n thing in organics.

1) Clay and organic matter have negative charges that can hold and release positively charged nutrients. (The cations are adsorbed onto the surface of the clay or humus.) That static charge keeps the nutrients from being washed away, and holds them so they are available to plant roots and soil microorganisms. ADSORBED.... BEING key here. You dont wash ANYTHING away in your soil by pouring ridiculous amounts of water through it.

If you amend your soil mix with compost or EWC flushing wont make a difference at all....

Now I can see why you would if you grow in pure coco or peat and use bottled products like canna or pureblend. Amended soil mixes are not even close to being the same as those mediums.

Mazar i Shariff said:

When you feed your plants synthetics, the nutrients are simply broken down so they are readily available to the plant. When feeding organic sources, you are still feeding those same nutrients to the plant, they are simply from different sources, and because they are organic, they are not as broken down and readily available to the plant. This will, however, still convert over time to the same as a synthetic will. For this, a flush will still be necessary. For organics, if you feed properly there's little chance you are going to have overfed, nutrient filled plants that smell funky like you can with synthetics. But there will still be a good qty of nutrients, sugars, & chlorophyll in the plants stores. When you get "hay-like" bud, it is because it's chlorophyll contents are way too high. It is for this reason that it is recommended for growers to flush their plants and allow the plant to feed on the remaining nutrients in the grow medium for the roots to take up, and then once all that is gone, they will start feeding on the fan leaves and yellowing off, just as any plant naturally does in autumn/fall in mother nature. And this is all coming from an organic grower. But I can swear by the fact that while organics taste the best, they achieve that much more when you take the time to atleast flush for 5-7 days for soil.

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Depends on growing medium and what you are using to feed with.

plaguedog said:

Depends on growing medium and what you are using to feed with.

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Exactly. If a grow medium is composed of components which provide all nutrient, micronutrient and mineral requirements for plant life cycle with no supplemental feeding required, why flush?