Old skool here, need help finding right information on led ! Please help !

nogod_

Well-Known Member
The experiment gets more interesting if you put a plant in both.

All unused photons bounce off the plant and become heat energy, some exits the plant through transpiration in water droplets. Only the photons that actually drive photosynthesis and get stored as sugars are removed, and of those only the difference in total plant mass between the HPS and LED counts when considering the difference in heat between the two (not much). At the end of the day 600w is 600w



ah the old which is hotter the chicken or the egg???

think of this, you take two boxes these boxes are made of special material that is 100% insulated ie no heat can escape and 100% reflective so no light can escape. in one box we put a 600w heater that is 100% efficient ie all the watts get turned to heat, then in box two we put a 600w led that is 100% efficient ie every watt is turned into photons.
just before we close the special boxes we put a temp probe in each one and seal them up, we turn on both the heater and the light for 1 hour and then turn them off and wait for 10 hours.

we now check the temp probes in each box, are they the same or different?.
 

Original StinkyG

Well-Known Member
That is an inaccurate statement. 600w of heat is 600w of heat, a 600w lamp does not produce 600w of heat. My 600w HPS produces a whole lot more heat than 600w of led. A fan cooled unit uses power to move heat away from the lamp, by using a fan you not only use more power you produce more heat, so yes a fanless unit produces less heat.

Nope, considerable less waste heat with led, that's a huge part of their efficiency
I was going by what I've read on here, never used led hence the thread !
 

Original StinkyG

Well-Known Member
So will I notice a difference in air temp in grow room using mid power LED compared to hps ? I want to grow through summer and this was one reason I thought I'd try led, with ballasts out the room would it be cooler ??? I if I replaced 2x600w hps with 480w /600w of led with ballast out the grow space ??
 

Original StinkyG

Well-Known Member
The experiment gets more interesting if you put a plant in both.

All unused photons bounce off the plant and become heat energy, some exits the plant through transpiration in water droplets. Only the photons that actually drive photosynthesis and get stored as sugars are removed, and of those only the difference in total plant mass between the HPS and LED counts when considering the difference in heat between the two (not much). At the end of the day 600w is 600w
So........ Straight answer ? Would I notice a difference with control gear removed from grow area ??
 

Original StinkyG

Well-Known Member
So will I notice a difference in air temp in grow room using mid power LED compared to hps ? I want to grow through summer and this was one reason I thought I'd try led, with ballasts out the room would it be cooler ??? I if I replaced 2x600w hps with 480w /600w of led with ballast out the grow space ??
each 600w replaced with 480w or 600w of led
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
No. Both luminaries draw 600w of power. Led's turn more of that power into light.
30yr Electronics Technician/Technologist.
You mean like when my weed turns into heat as I smoke it?
The reality of physics is that 1 watts burned = 3.41 btu's regardless of how those watts are burned. I didn't believe it at first either, until I tested it for myself by measuring a 400w HPS in an empty grow tent run for one hour with no ventilation, then let it cool down and run the identical test with same wattage LED for an hour. Guess what? Identical temps. Physics is real!
 

grotbags

Well-Known Member
So will I notice a difference in air temp in grow room using mid power LED compared to hps ? I want to grow through summer and this was one reason I thought I'd try led, with ballasts out the room would it be cooler ??? I if I replaced 2x600w hps with 480w /600w of led with ballast out the grow space ??
you are in the uk same as me...

i would replace 600w of sodium with 600w of led as you were using a 600w sodium for covering a 4 x 4 so you werent maxing out your umol's anyway, 600watt of led will light a 4 x 4 properly and you can always dim down a touch if you have a fussy strain.
you could use a bit less power with led and still more than match the sodium but if you are buying of the shelf then you will be limited by whats available, if its a choice between 480w and 600w id go 600w.

i would leave the drivers in the grow space for the extra heat, i have even went as far as changing the extraction setup of my space to extract from the bottom of the room and fresh air in at the top. i also added ceiling fans to push the warmer air at the top of the room back down through the canopy.

you may also want to back off on the extraction levels cause once you ditch the sodiums you wont need a huricanes worth of air movement through your space anymore.

with led you want your room temps a few degrees higher than sodium (i like about 29) so your leaf temps are approx the same as they were with sodiums.
 

nogod_

Well-Known Member
Agreed

you are in the uk same as me...

i would replace 600w of sodium with 600w of led as you were using a 600w sodium for covering a 4 x 4 so you werent maxing out your umol's anyway, 600watt of led will light a 4 x 4 properly and you can always dim down a touch if you have a fussy strain.
you could use a bit less power with led and still more than match the sodium but if you are buying of the shelf then you will be limited by whats available, if its a choice between 480w and 600w id go 600w.

i would leave the drivers in the grow space for the extra heat, i have even went as far as changing the extraction setup of my space to extract from the bottom of the room and fresh air in at the top. i also added ceiling fans to push the warmer air at the top of the room back down through the canopy.

you may also want to back off on the extraction levels cause once you ditch the sodiums you wont need a huricanes worth of air movement through your space anymore.

with led you want your room temps a few degrees higher than sodium (i like about 29) so your leaf temps are approx the same as they were with sodiums.


Both 600w luminaires put out 600w of heat.
It's just a matter of when those watts turn into heat that varies.

...seems to me ...lot of people... forget the Spectrum influences on leaf temps too...

there are differences on leaf temps on HPS or MH or LEDs too ... just by their respective Spectrum Lights....

KEVIN FRENDER is Chief Science and Technology Officer of Black Dog LED. ...hey much LOVE to BDL bros....

Traditional High-Pressure Sodium (HPS) Lights Put Out a Lot of Infrared IR (Radiated Heat) and mostly Yellow Light.

Chlorophyll, the Pigment responsible for Photosynthesis, cannot use Yellow Light directly,
which forces Plants to use other Pigments to convert Yellow Photons to Red Photons ones
that Chlorophyll can use, releasing Heat in the Process.

These Two Mechanisms Combine to Put Limits on How Intense HPS Lights Can Get Before Leaves Overheat.

This is Why Plants Under HPS Lights Can’t Tolerate Temperatures Much Above 80°F;
however, Active Cooling Increases HVAC Costs.

Cannabis Plants Grown with Natural Sunlight Receive a Much Broader Spectrum
Comprising Lots of Red Light and Blue Light,
allowing them to Thrive with Temperatures Over 90°F, and some even Over 100°F.

Canopy Penetration — How Far Light Can Travel in a Dense Mass of Leaves and Flowers — also affects Yields.

HIGHER LIGHT INTENSITY means Better Canopy Penetration,
and LEDs with a Spectrum Designed to Allow HIGHER LIGHT INTENSITY
Without Overheating the Leaves Can Achieve This.


However, Canopy Penetration also Depends on the Light’s Wavelength,
as Some Colors of Light can Travel Through Leaves Better Than Others.

Photons often Lose Energy when Bouncing Off or Traveling Through Leaves,
Shifting them to a Higher-Wavelength (Redder) Light.

Once the Light is Shifted Past Red, Plants Can’t Use It For Photosynthesis Anymore.

Starting with Higher-Energy (Shorter-Wavelength) Ultraviolet-A and Deep-Blue Photons
allows them to Bounce More Times and Go Through More Leaves Before Becoming Ineffective For Photosynthesis.

This Deeper Canopy Penetration nourishes Lower Leaves
and Provides More Energy for Plants To Grow High-Quality, Dense Flowers Much Lower On The Plants.

However, many Modern Light Fixtures Don’t Emit UV and Deep-Blue Light.

Creating Higher-Energy Photons Requires More Electricity Than Lower-Energy Photons,
making Lights that Create UV and Deep-Blue Light Less Electrically Efficient per Photon Created
,
so They Look Worse On Paper.

However, the Increase in Yield Per Square Foot More Than Makes Up For The Decreased Electrical Efficiency.

Light isn’t the only Factor for Maximizing Cannabis Yields, but it is certainly one of the Most Critical.

LEDs are vastly More Energy Efficient than Conventional Lights Technologies,
and most Modern LED Grow Lights Have A Much Better Spectrum For Growing Plants Than HPS or MH lights.

However, Simply Maximizing the Amount of Light Distributed To A Plant
or Looking Only At The Number Of Photons A Light Can Generate Per Watt
Ignores One Of The Most Exciting Tools that LED Technology Can Provide — Customizable Spectra

By Carefully Tuning the Spectrum Output To Plants, We Can Control Their Responses To Maximize Yields.

Spectrally-Tuned LED Lights Containing UV-A, Deep-Blue, and the right Ratios of Reds and Blues
can Maximize Light Intensity and Canopy Penetration,
which are the Keys to the Future Of Increasing Yields in Indoor Cannabis Gardens —
All While Reducing Overall Electrical and Cooling Costs.

PD...y ellos no hacen mencion a que en HIGHER LIGHT INTENSITY Lights el verde tambien juega un papel importantisimo....y en intracanopy lights y undercanopy lights tambien.... y blancos con verde... nos pasa lo mismo que con blancos con rojos... si los trae incorporados el blanco te ahorran poner muchos leds monocolores en rojos y en verdes.... y en azules usados en blancos tambien hay curiosos leds para usar en cultivos... y no soy botanista....pero algo he leido en estos años que llevo siguiendo el tema de iluminaciones con led para cultivos....y algunos botanistas me han dado algunos consejos al preguntarles cara a cara....hace ya mucho tiempo...ya volvere a preguntar a los que tenga por mi zona para actualizarme y quizas hacer nuevos amigos.... no llevo prisa.... y me encantan ver y oir otros POVs...aunque opinen diferente.... me dan diferentes perspectivas... y enriquece la mia...mil gracias a los tecnicos agricolas....me ampliaron los caminos y expandieron mi vision general.... y de gratis...casi naaa...

PD1...tampoco hacen mencion al FR o IR y su influencias en el crecimiento de las plantas...mirando mas alla de la fotosintesis...o del PAR...

...en PBAR...no solo interesa la fotosintesis que es importante...nos interesa todo el espectro mas alla de la fotosintesis...para explotar otras cosas...aparte de la importante fotosintesis....



im old exelectrician...im not a botanist....off course.... just a curious for info....

...there are diferences on traditional lights and leds... both are used... use what you prefer... understand both ways on the right way... makes you takes better DECISIONES en usar el camino que mas te puede ayudar en cada caso en particular de cultivo...

el presupuesto inicial de los hps para empezar a cultivar....los sigue haciendo atractivos para bajos presupuestos...aun con sus problemas conocidos.... y para coger experiencia ....y vas añadiendo leds...y haces una transicion poco a poco...entendiendo ambas vias por el camino.... tu decides al final...con que te quedas iluminando...

gracias por el like bro G....asi que en inglaterra ehhh pillinnn... estos isleños...lol...mucho amor...cuidese...

ISLAND POWERRR....lol...

Paz y Amor...en 2021 aun mucho mas...

Saludos desde Tenerife - Islas Canarias....

e function actived...
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Just had a mooch at them ! Thanks for the link, they use Samsung and osram reds but Samsung diodes are 561c I think ? Can anyone answer my question about bin diodes, are top bin 561c better than lesser bin lm301h ????
Yes, lm561c top bin would be slightly better than lm301b middle/bottom bin. Really very little difference really, iirc the top bin PPF/w is 2.90 versus 3.03 on those chips.
Remember that there is both flux (output) bins and voltage bin (how much power needed to get the output); a true top bin would have the highest flux bin and lowest voltage bin. In many cases advertised as top bin you'll only see the top flux bin and a mid to high voltage bin. In any case if youre buying from Alibaba just assume youre not getting absolute top bin.
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
lm561c are GREAT diodes. The difference in efficiency is not enough to care. ANY fixture you get with lm561c or lm301b/h is going to be your best bet.
Far as i can recall , there is IR in hps and none in leds. Thats the only difference if you get regular 3k diodes. All the added UV is just extra stuff to make a better light. Some leds even have IR but that is the only thing "missing" if you are switching to led. HPS has a LOT of IR and led has none unless added.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
lm561c are GREAT diodes. The difference in efficiency is not enough to care. ANY fixture you get with lm561c or lm301b/h is going to be your best bet.
Far as i can recall , there is IR in hps and none in leds. Thats the only difference if you get regular 3k diodes. All the added UV is just extra stuff to make a better light. Some leds even have IR but that is the only thing "missing" if you are switching to led. HPS has a LOT of IR and led has none unless added.
We run almost only lm561c with great results but we keep each diode on low, 240 driver for 1600 diodes, so a bit under nominal, about 0.15w per diode or like 40w for every qb. If you can get lm561c on the cheap and under drive it, imo it's a better, safer (both in terms of diodes burning and in terms of risking not getting top bin: all LEDs will do better cooler) and carries many other knock on benefits, like better spread and having a much higher top power rating (we could literally run them 4 times harder).
Basically (and imho) if you can get 1 top line diode for the price of 2 of one bin/model down, usually it pays better to got for more diodes and leverage diode count.
Only problem comes to temps: they are so low that we don't need heatsinks, and even so the fotops give literally no heating, they just get luke warmish. So we add heat thru burning gas or similar. Luxury problems...
 

Original StinkyG

Well-Known Member
We run almost only lm561c with great results but we keep each diode on low, 240 driver for 1600 diodes, so a bit under nominal, about 0.15w per diode or like 40w for every qb. If you can get lm561c on the cheap and under drive it, imo it's a better, safer (both in terms of diodes burning and in terms of risking not getting top bin: all LEDs will do better cooler) and carries many other knock on benefits, like better spread and having a much higher top power rating (we could literally run them 4 times harder).
Basically (and imho) if you can get 1 top line diode for the price of 2 of one bin/model down, usually it pays better to got for more diodes and leverage diode count.
Only problem comes to temps: they are so low that we don't need heatsinks, and even so the fotops give literally no heating, they just get luke warmish. So we add heat thru burning gas or similar. Luxury problems...
I like your style, no bullhorn just straight information, well informed by the sounds of it without bothering me with too much technical information. I've only recently been looking at
LED hence the thread ! I am not one for going with the newest most expensive item as I leave that for the kids these days, I did all that "all the gear, no idea" many moons ago. These older diodes lm561c are pretty good looking at the numbers, makes !e think that unless everything was perfect one would never notice the difference between the diodes. The amount of diodes and what they are run at is quite a big thing from what I have read and noticing some companies are running lm301h or b at high figures and from what I've read it makes them much less efficient at their job and they won't work for as long. Is this right ?? I am going to make my own as love a diy project, the feeling of satisfaction when it comes out fantastic ! Thinking 561c in strips/bars But not sure how many diodes per meter square/ 4 foot square more likely ! How many watts would be best for these diodes ? Sorry to bother you, if you do not reply I won't think less of you as no doubt information is available freely ! I'm going to read through your post again as there is lots there already. Much appreciated
 

Original StinkyG

Well-Known Member
We run almost only lm561c with great results but we keep each diode on low, 240 driver for 1600 diodes, so a bit under nominal, about 0.15w per diode or like 40w for every qb. If you can get lm561c on the cheap and under drive it, imo it's a better, safer (both in terms of diodes burning and in terms of risking not getting top bin: all LEDs will do better cooler) and carries many other knock on benefits, like better spread and having a much higher top power rating (we could literally run them 4 times harder).
Basically (and imho) if you can get 1 top line diode for the price of 2 of one bin/model down, usually it pays better to got for more diodes and leverage diode count.
Only problem comes to temps: they are so low that we don't need heatsinks, and even so the fotops give literally no heating, they just get luke warmish. So we add heat thru burning gas or similar. Luxury problems...
How much space does each 240w driver do with this amount of diodes ?
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
I like your style, no bullhorn just straight information, well informed by the sounds of it without bothering me with too much technical information. I've only recently been looking at
LED hence the thread ! I am not one for going with the newest most expensive item as I leave that for the kids these days, I did all that "all the gear, no idea" many moons ago. These older diodes lm561c are pretty good looking at the numbers, makes !e think that unless everything was perfect one would never notice the difference between the diodes. The amount of diodes and what they are run at is quite a big thing from what I have read and noticing some companies are running lm301h or b at high figures and from what I've read it makes them much less efficient at their job and they won't work for as long. Is this right ?? I am going to make my own as love a diy project, the feeling of satisfaction when it comes out fantastic ! Thinking 561c in strips/bars But not sure how many diodes per meter square/ 4 foot square more likely ! How many watts would be best for these diodes ? Sorry to bother you, if you do not reply I won't think less of you as no doubt information is available freely ! I'm going to read through your post again as there is lots there already. Much appreciated
Nominal on these diodes is 65mA or just under 0.2w which is where I like to run them. So 5 diodes per w or so. And 30-40w per foot. But if you're running ultra soft like this you 30 is probably better than 40.
How much space does each 240w driver do with this amount of diodes ?
About 8 feet, basically a 0.75m x1m section.
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
How much space does each 240w driver do with this amount of diodes ?
you are correct. nobody would know the difference between lm301 and lm561c. They are way too close to the same to actually see the difference. Your looking for about 25-40 watts a sq/ft. no matter how big the space or how many diodes being used.

That being said. You would want less power to each strip to make them cooler and last forever.
If a strip is 30 watts max then run about 10-20 watts through um so they stay cool. (no heat sink needed) 20200922_125541.jpg
this is 768 diodes (lm561c) on a 200 watt driver. .26 watts to each diode. Turned up to full blast is still nice and cool. This is a bit too bright for veg so i only run about 120 watts to it at the most.
EDIT: it covers about a 3'x4' for veg. or 2x4 for flower.
 

raggyb

Well-Known Member
do LED's on dimmers give off a high pitch whine like regular lights on dimmers do and the pitch changes as you adjust the dimmer?
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
do LED's on dimmers give off a high pitch whine like regular lights on dimmers do and the pitch changes as you adjust the dimmer?
You can't hear LEDs at all dimmed or not, unless you have the type of fixture with cooling fans.
 
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