Nutrient deficiency close to finish

ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
After seeing his recipe, I'm inclined in that direction also.

OP, a couple of things. Your liming agent should be ~1cup/cf. You have 1/4 cup of OSF for a bit over 2cf. No surprise the soil pH is 6.2 and likely the Ca is mostly consumed. Should have been ~2cups of OSF.

OSF is nearly pure CaCO3. Good stuff but does not provide any Mg. I use dolomite which provides both Ca and Mg and the 'Cal Mag' issue never arises. Plus I don't need to go hunting a Mg source. The dolo is also stupid cheap locally, being ~$4.50 for a 40lb bag. The same size bag of OSF is nearly 10x as much, to me, due to shipping. It certainly doesn't work 10x better, but, YMMV. It's way too late to add any now, but don't forget it when you reamend after harvest.

Checking runoff is nearly useless for soil pH. Do the soil test like ShLUbY detailed for you for a much more accurate picture. Even using test strips with this method works well. I use them quite a bit for a quick 'ballpark' figure and dig out the meter very seldom.

That's about all I wanted to add, ShLUbY has already asked other questions that I had and no need to repeat them. LOL, don't think there is any need for more phosphates when you reamend, that should still be covered.

Wet
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The pH of the soil is fine imo, actually preferred for me. His picture suggests a Ca def. but if you notice, he has a ton of calcium in the soil between the bone meal and the gypsum. That's why I have such a hard time considering that there is a deficiency in anything. I think his phosphate excess is locking out all kinds of nutrients into salts in the soil. Also if he is brewing up bacterial teas, he's limiting the diversity of life in the soil, and there are not enough predators making use of all the bacterial biomass to produce exudates for the plant. Or maybe he's unintentionally flushing out nutrients with wet dry cycles and runoff... or maybe he's been leaving the soil too dry over the period of the grow and the plant is having difficulty getting nutrition due to decreased microbial activity. Too many variables at this point. He needs to give us some answers :)
 
Nizza

Nizza

Well-Known Member
20% humidity is quite low, i wonder if your soil got too dry and caused salinity in the medium to fry the root tips and stuff.. sometimes the peat in soil loses its moisture retention and there are a few ways of fixing it if you think this could be the issue. dry soil with higher salinity= pH swings causing wierd ass lockouts.
i think adding some sort of wetting agent can fix the peat if its too dried up . Ive heard of people using a drop of dawn or some silica solution to increase moisture retention
 
Northern Boxer

Northern Boxer

Active Member
ShLUbY said:
ok my man, I found your recipe.

it's interesting that your friend is having no issues with the same recipe though, even though the lighting is what differs between you the most.

this thing looks potent. Most notably is the abundance of phosphate in the mix, which is known for locking up nutrients when it is in excess. I would have an extremely hard time thinking you have a deficiency in anything, and more of an excess.

let me ask you a few things.

1. What are your watering habits? Organic soils require consistent moisture all the time, no wet/dry cycles.
2. Are you watering to the point of runoff? Generally, you want to avoid runoff at all costs because you strip nutrients from your soil via leeching.
3. Are you never using just plain H2O? with your mix, you should pretty much only be using plain water all the way from start to finish.
4. What is your method for compost teas? Generally you'd be better off doing compost extracts, because teas are only as effective if you are proficient in using a microscope to analyze if your tea is any good. just cause you bubble some shit in a bucket, doesn't mean its good. Also, too much molasses can be bad for your soil and your plant/microbe relationships.
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ShLUbY, back at you and thanks to you and Wetdog for sticking with the newby in respect to indoor organics. Shit I still reference my Mel Frank,s Marijuana Growers Guide that bought back in 88! Anyhow in respect to your questions.

1. Not full wet dry cycle though generally bottom 15% still moist.
2. Very minimal runoff. My watering process for this grow 1500 ml, wait 15 minutes, 1500 ml, wait 10 minutes, 1000 ml or less for final watering. If any runoff occurs I let them sit on trays and wick any runoff. 30 min later I drain any remaining tray water.
3. Plain RO water for the past 7 weeks with 2 tea applications.
4. Ok, perhaps this this is where I plead uninformed. I used a premixed product called Boogie Brew. I understand making teas is a science and this product was recommended by my local grow shop. And yes I plead guilty to a mild application of black strap at 5 weeks veg.
 
Northern Boxer

Northern Boxer

Active Member
Wetdog said:
After seeing his recipe, I'm inclined in that direction also.

OP, a couple of things. Your liming agent should be ~1cup/cf. You have 1/4 cup of OSF for a bit over 2cf. No surprise the soil pH is 6.2 and likely the Ca is mostly consumed. Should have been ~2cups of OSF.

OSF is nearly pure CaCO3. Good stuff but does not provide any Mg. I use dolomite which provides both Ca and Mg and the 'Cal Mag' issue never arises. Plus I don't need to go hunting a Mg source. The dolo is also stupid cheap locally, being ~$4.50 for a 40lb bag. The same size bag of OSF is nearly 10x as much, to me, due to shipping. It certainly doesn't work 10x better, but, YMMV. It's way too late to add any now, but don't forget it when you reamend after harvest.

Checking runoff is nearly useless for soil pH. Do the soil test like ShLUbY detailed for you for a much more accurate picture. Even using test strips with this method works well. I use them quite a bit for a quick 'ballpark' figure and dig out the meter very seldom.

That's about all I wanted to add, ShLUbY has already asked other questions that I had and no need to repeat them. LOL, don't think there is any need for more phosphates when you reamend, that should still be covered.

Wet
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Yes, I'm seeing too heavy on the bonemeal and too light on the OSF just to name a few. I have to admit that I approached my first organic grow half assed and used a paper napkin recipe provided my hydro store. Though since I planted I have been doing a lot of reading and realize my approach is all wrong but having 3 months into my grow, I wanted to try and save my efforts. Plant first, read later....guilty as charged. With that I'm really looking forward to doing my next grow properly and wanted to throw a few things out. I bought True Living Organics Second Edition by the Rev and have gone through it a couple of times. His approach is based on high quality composts, DIY worm castings, lots of amendments as well as nutrient layers and spikes. I like the idea of water only but his approach is labour intensive and is defiantly not a build your soil, cook it well and water only though he certainly seems to support this approach though with a lot of Top dressings and ACT's. Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to get my hands dirty but wondering if there is a more basic approach as I learn my way through organics. Fortunately there is a supplier in Ontario called Black Swallow Soils and he has pretty well everything I would ever need to build a quality TLO.
 
Northern Boxer

Northern Boxer

Active Member
Northern Boxer said:
Yes, I'm seeing too heavy on the bonemeal and too light on the OSF just to name a few. I have to admit that I approached my first organic grow half assed and used a paper napkin recipe provided my hydro store. Though since I planted I have been doing a lot of reading and realize my approach is all wrong but having 3 months into my grow, I wanted to try and save my efforts. Plant first, read later....guilty as charged. With that I'm really looking forward to doing my next grow properly and wanted to throw a few things out. I bought True Living Organics Second Edition by the Rev and have gone through it a couple of times. His approach is based on high quality composts, DIY worm castings, lots of amendments as well as nutrient layers and spikes. I like the idea of water only but his approach is labour intensive and is defiantly not a build your soil, cook it well and water only though he certainly seems to support this approach though with a lot of Top dressings and ACT's. Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to get my hands dirty but wondering if there is a more basic approach as I learn my way through organics. Fortunately there is a supplier in Ontario called Black Swallow Soils and he has pretty well everything I would ever need to build a quality TLO.
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the Rev is big on soil cover bark mulch and a couple guys I know are also growing cover crop like clover and barley right on top of thier soil. Then they trim it with scissors and it just falls into the mix?
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Northern Boxer said:
Yes, I'm seeing too heavy on the bonemeal and too light on the OSF just to name a few. I have to admit that I approached my first organic grow half assed and used a paper napkin recipe provided my hydro store. Though since I planted I have been doing a lot of reading and realize my approach is all wrong but having 3 months into my grow, I wanted to try and save my efforts. Plant first, read later....guilty as charged. With that I'm really looking forward to doing my next grow properly and wanted to throw a few things out. I bought True Living Organics Second Edition by the Rev and have gone through it a couple of times. His approach is based on high quality composts, DIY worm castings, lots of amendments as well as nutrient layers and spikes. I like the idea of water only but his approach is labour intensive and is defiantly not a build your soil, cook it well and water only though he certainly seems to support this approach though with a lot of Top dressings and ACT's. Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to get my hands dirty but wondering if there is a more basic approach as I learn my way through organics. Fortunately there is a supplier in Ontario called Black Swallow Soils and he has pretty well everything I would ever need to build a quality TLO.
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two key growers you need to check out:

Mountain Organics (thread on grass city is LOADED with great info)
Clackamus Coot

I've adapted some of their methods to fit my own needs, but the basic principles are whats important. well balanced soil with only necessary inputs, leading to a low work level gardening where you spend more time observing the plants rather than caring for them. the rev's book is good and provides foundational knowledge, but there are simpler ways of organic methods with the two guys I mentioned above.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Northern Boxer said:
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the Rev is big on soil cover bark mulch and a couple guys I know are also growing cover crop like clover and barley right on top of thier soil. Then they trim it with scissors and it just falls into the mix?
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yup. you will find all of this info in the thread i mentioned. you're gonna thank me later ;) MO is a organic grow endboss. A true master of the craft.
 
Northern Boxer

Northern Boxer

Active Member
ShLUbY said:
yup. you will find all of this info in the thread i mentioned. you're gonna thank me later ;) MO is a organic grow endboss. A true master of the craft.
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Awesome, the Black Swallow website has a load of podcasts and funny enough the one I listened to yesterday featured Clackamus Coot and his techniques for building his living soil. Next stop the MO forum on GC. Do you use spikes and layering in your grow or strictly a well amended soil? Thanks.
 
Northern Boxer

Northern Boxer

Active Member
Shit, I opened my tent this morning and my Cali OG Kush looked like fall colours. What are the chances of see this through to finish or in your opinion am I wasting my time seeing this through. My chem nutes grows never looked like this though I am committed to staying off the bottle. Thanks again.20190129_212108.jpg
 
G

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
Honestly they don’t look that bad, with that being said, what sized containers are these in/how big are they ? Tough to tell from the overhead shot. I’ve been using 7 gallon pots with my soil mix and if I get a plant that blows up during the first couple weeks of bloom I see earlier fading then desired. I think container size is very important when using an organic soil approach. Can’t grow bushes in 3 gallon containers like you can using synthetics.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Northern Boxer said:
Shit, I opened my tent this morning and my Cali OG Kush looked like fall colours. What are the chances of see this through to finish or in your opinion am I wasting my time seeing this through. My chem nutes grows never looked like this though I am committed to staying off the bottle. Thanks again.View attachment 4273487
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I'd be letting them ride as long as possible. Definitely don't chop it down now. Again I'll stress, with all those inputs in your recipe, there's no way you have a deficiency in your soil, it's lockout from all the phos. Just plan on chopping maybe a week early. Watch the trichs with a scope. just let her consume every last bit of what's in the leaves. FWIW... she is beautiful :)
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Growitpondifarm said:
Honestly they don’t look that bad, with that being said, what sized containers are these in/how big are they ? Tough to tell from the overhead shot. I’ve been using 7 gallon pots with my soil mix and if I get a plant that blows up during the first couple weeks of bloom I see earlier fading then desired. I think container size is very important when using an organic soil approach. Can’t grow bushes in 3 gallon containers like you can using synthetics.
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exactly. more soil is always better than less when it comes to organic growing. then you just have to watch the watering for the first couple weeks, but it will pay off in the end. I'm going back to 10gal fabrics as soon as I get a chance.
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Northern Boxer said:
Awesome, the Black Swallow website has a load of podcasts and funny enough the one I listened to yesterday featured Clackamus Coot and his techniques for building his living soil. Next stop the MO forum on GC. Do you use spikes and layering in your grow or strictly a well amended soil? Thanks.
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just a well amended soil. spikes are kinda weird to me. if your soil is good from the get go, you have no problems. When i need an extra boost, i just topdress some additional inputs mixed with compost and mulch it. easy game!
 
G

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
ShLUbY said:
exactly. more soil is always better than less when it comes to organic growing. then you just have to watch the watering for the first couple weeks, but it will pay off in the end. I'm going back to 10gal fabrics as soon as I get a chance.
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I think 10 gal is minimum size for growing decent sized plants, 6 weeks plus of veg. I’m always constricted by height so have stuck with 7’s. Going to make a small bed to run 4 plants in for next run
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Growitpondifarm said:
I think 10 gal is minimum size for growing decent sized plants, 6 weeks plus of veg. I’m always constricted by height so have stuck with 7’s. Going to make a small bed to run 4 plants in for next run
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most all of the plants i've been posting lately have been done in 5 gals... but they are plastics. I still feel like I'm missing potential though, hence the upsizing. the 7 gal plastic shangri-la has been crushing it though! I think a 10 gal fabric is pretty equal to a 7 gal plastic.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
ShLUbY said:
most all of the plants i've been posting lately have been done in 5 gals... but they are plastics. I still feel like I'm missing potential though, hence the upsizing. the 7 gal plastic shangri-la has been crushing it though! I think a 10 gal fabric is pretty equal to a 7 gal plastic.
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If you ever get the chance, give the Gro Pro 8gal square pot a shot. It'a a true 8gal (14.4x14.4x14.2), uv resistant and very heavy duty. No root spinning with the square shape and works well for me indoors, more so than round pots. The 5gal are 12x12x12, so more like a cf than 5 gal.

Something to think about.

Wet
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
If you ever get the chance, give the Gro Pro 8gal square pot a shot. It'a a true 8gal (14.4x14.4x14.2), uv resistant and very heavy duty. No root spinning with the square shape and works well for me indoors, more so than round pots. The 5gal are 12x12x12, so more like a cf than 5 gal.

Something to think about.

Wet
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I will definitely check them out. I've heard you mention them before. and yeah that's a bonus to the no root spin. that's one thing that my pumice SIPS have helped out with in the plastic pots. There is some root pruning happening down there!
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Northern Boxer said:
Awesome, the Black Swallow website has a load of podcasts and funny enough the one I listened to yesterday featured Clackamus Coot and his techniques for building his living soil. Next stop the MO forum on GC. Do you use spikes and layering in your grow or strictly a well amended soil? Thanks.
Click to expand...
It's the "No till revisited" thread up in the stickies. No one does spikes or layering as it's simply not needed. The Rev just doesn't figure a lot with this style of mix/growing. I also use a variation on Coots mix much like ShLUbY's but with some different materials. The guiding principals behind both are the same, we both adapted a good basic recipe to fit our particular environments and growing style. One size (usually), doesn't fit all.

Check out at least the first 15 or so pages of the thread for most of the information you need. The whole 700+ pages can be a bit much, but a wealth of information. This is also the 2nd thread bc the first one got so long, but is also in the stickies.

Wet
 
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