Multichip LED, Remote Phosphor - Guess who it is.

Bumping Spheda said:

Nope, no calculations, no pH/ppm testing. Just tossed a bunch of ferts into the soil when I transplanted. Azomite, Dolomite, Rock Phosphate, Green Sand, Bone Meal, worm castings, and high P bat guano off the top of my head. Apart from the burn, which never really got out of control and seems to be correcting itself, I don't think there's much of an issue with what's in the soil, it's just been my overwatering which has locked out the Phosphorus and Calcium. I haven't even cut the two tomatoes with the rot off, I'm thinking they might straighten themselves out once I correct the watering schedule? Dunno.

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oooooh, I don't know about that. Whenever I've had fruit rot, it stays, and the fruit tends to finish with more deformities. You can salvage part of the fruit when you pick it, but just make sure it's not black inside.

And no pH testing? You are either gifted or lucky then, because I do terrible if I can't check and adjust parameters.
Then again, my green thumb may be physically challenged
But that makes me wonder what the pH of your water is then...
If you are not having problems from lack of nutes (which is difficult to measure in this case) then I am quick to suspect lock-out may be coming from high pH.

Yet, you say that they are "picking up," so maybe it does have something to do with over-watering? I'm not sure. I water mine every 2-3 days, and just enough to give the pot some weight, never saturated and dripping (which could lead to some salt issues later, yes). Right now I am going through ~4L of water and nute mix per week after transplanting (again) into bigger pots on the 11th, IIRC.
How often and how much are you watering?

I think it was the day after my last update that I noticed something strange.
One of the Sasha's (the Commie Tomato) was looking a little droopy. Now I had watered them, and I know it wasn't overdone, so I pulled off the pot and saw this


I figured since the damn roots were starting to come out the top, it was necessary to transplant into bigger pots. I probably won't be able to get them outside for another couple weeks, though... So hopefully I don't develop any root binding issues.

And happy times... I finally started to see flowers on one of the Juliets (definitely a faster developer than the Heirloom Sashas), but on the 9th node !
I expected them to already start on the 4th node, but I guess the plant has its own ideas...



But now, all of the Juliets are budding. So I am happy. Still waiting on those damn Commies, though.
Here they are in reverse order (#3, #2, #1)



I had to put a larger plank under the mat, since these buggers are starting to get too big. I've also done some snipping over the last week (in stages). A couple Sashas didn't like how close I cut to the node, and showed some shock in just the right spots where you'd expect to see some capillary disruption. Kind of interesting actually. The plant has its own pinpoint damage indicators
I guess I can use that info down the road to identify physical tissue damage...

Au Naturel


Twisted White Balance


I almost forgot. In the little plastic salad container (needed a hobo humidome) are 3 cubes of italian parsley and 3 cubes of basil, getting started. I'll be growing those alongside whatever tomato I wind up keeping under the light.

I'm still stoked over my 15 year old Hanna pH pen continuing to function. I can't believe it really. But it does need some loving to make it work right. Nevertheless, it just shows that as long as you take care of your gear, it'll hang around a lot longer than manufacturers guidelines.

That's cool man!

Planning to use some exotic basils to suck up wasted light in my veg tent methinks (I love cooking)

Anychance you could continue to update about them? would love to see their growth rate under some good light.

Wow, your girls are beautiful. Nice job, thus far, man. Good Lord, they are hairy, and those roots look delicious.

heckler73 said:

oooooh, I don't know about that. Whenever I've had fruit rot, it stays, and the fruit tends to finish with more deformities. You can salvage part of the fruit when you pick it, but just make sure it's not black inside.

And no pH testing? You are either gifted or lucky then, because I do terrible if I can't check and adjust parameters.
Then again, my green thumb may be physically challenged
But that makes me wonder what the pH of your water is then...
If you are not having problems from lack of nutes (which is difficult to measure in this case) then I am quick to suspect lock-out may be coming from high pH.

Yet, you say that they are "picking up," so maybe it does have something to do with over-watering? I'm not sure. I water mine every 2-3 days, and just enough to give the pot some weight, never saturated and dripping (which could lead to some salt issues later, yes). Right now I am going through ~4L of water and nute mix per week after transplanting (again) into bigger pots on the 11th, IIRC.
How often and how much are you watering?

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Argh. I'll just cut them then. Not a big deal, there's a lot of other tomatoes that look fine.

The pH going in, or coming out? I'm using distilled water.

I had been watering everyday and pretty much a full soil soak. A little water dripping out the bottom wasn't really uncommon, but I aimed to water less than that. I didn't water for two days, though, and on the third day it was very very unhappy. I'll try to water every other day and hope that that keeps it happy.

SnotBoogie said:

That's cool man!

Planning to use some exotic basils to suck up wasted light in my veg tent methinks (I love cooking)

Anychance you could continue to update about them? would love to see their growth rate under some good light.

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Of course. They'll be growing beside the tomato (whichever one it is). And the herbs take little time to develop, once they get started. It will be interesting for me to see how far I can push them, and what their nutritional requirements are.

Bumping Spheda said:

Wow, your girls are beautiful. Nice job, thus far, man. Good Lord, they are hairy, and those roots look delicious.


Argh. I'll just cut them then. Not a big deal, there's a lot of other tomatoes that look fine.

The pH going in, or coming out? I'm using distilled water.

I had been watering everyday and pretty much a full soil soak. A little water dripping out the bottom wasn't really uncommon, but I aimed to water less than that. I didn't water for two days, though, and on the third day it was very very unhappy. I'll try to water every other day and hope that that keeps it happy.

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Well if you're using distilled, then it's probably around 7.0pH, no? DEFINITELY too high. I think that was one of the things that nailed me last year. I presumed the tap water was 6.3 (which it used to be when I last tested it YEARS ago). But now that I see it is 7.0-7.1 (after reviving my Hanna), I understand why I was having P and K issues with my outdoor plants last round. Although, in your case, since you are using a Super Soil (I don't know how else to call it), I'm not sure how much that would affect the pH. It must lower it... And now that you mention it, I really should do a check on my runoff. I can't imagine it would be off much, but it would give me some data as to how much my feeding regimen alters the soil. hmmmmm....

Nevertheless, if you are constantly saturating the roots, they may be having problems getting Oxygen. So, yah, try watering every 2nd day. But be consistent. When I was stumbling through the intardwebz last night, looking for Ca deficiency info, I did see something about erratic watering patterns causing lock-out issues (P and Ca). Or, alternatively, if you have a spare fish pump, try sticking the hose into the roots of the plant. Before I experimented with DWC, I tried that and was shocked at the growth change. Then you can soak your plant all you want, and it will be happy.

I suppose I could use a Brita filter and just filter tap water with that. Probably not a huge difference, but pH should be a tad bit lower that way. I figured my Super Soil would fix the pH of the distilled water right quick, so I never even worried out it.

You mean like an air pump? Those things are hella loud, aren't they? I see your point, though, that sounds interesting. When I get an mj plant into the flower tent she'll be in a smart pot of sorts, which seems to be aiming for the same effect, right?

Temps are 97 in my veg tent, RH is like 25, and my clones don't seem to want to root. I've got issues, lol. Some P and Ca lockouts on my tomato plant isn't that high on the priority list, but I'll do what I can to keep it happy.

Bumping Spheda said:

I suppose I could use a Brita filter and just filter tap water with that. Probably not a huge difference, but pH should be a tad bit lower that way. I figured my Super Soil would fix the pH of the distilled water right quick, so I never even worried out it.

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I can't say I am that familiar with Super Soils. But I've been watching JaytheGroPro on YT (although now he's at the social grow site, too, for his live shows), and even though he uses a Super Soil (and nutes it seems), he makes sure to pH his water to 6.3 IIRC.
And he sure gets some fantastic results. So there is going to be some natural effect from the soil in lowering pH, but it may not do it all on its own.
This is just my intuition, though.

You mean like an air pump? Those things are hella loud, aren't they? I see your point, though, that sounds interesting. When I get an mj plant into the flower tent she'll be in a smart pot of sorts, which seems to be aiming for the same effect, right?

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Yah... I haven't seen those SmartPots up close, but the theory is the same. However, stuffing an air tube into the center of the roots (approx) is like Roids4Roots
It can fix some short term issues, in an emergency...
I'm afraid I don't understand the definition of loud with an airpump. I live near a busy road, so a little aquarium pump is like a soft purr from a kitten to me.

Temps are 97 in my veg tent, RH is like 25, and my clones don't seem to want to root. I've got issues, lol. Some P and Ca lockouts on my tomato plant isn't that high on the priority list, but I'll do what I can to keep it happy.

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97 Farenheit? That's ~37 Celsius ?!?!?!?! THAT could become an issue... I'm still up in the air over this RH stuff. Plants can take on a wide variety of humidity conditions. High humidity does cause problems for MJ buds, but I never heard of 25% being an issue. I remember my old grows being around 30%-40%, and never had any issues. And I see now that around 50% is recommended, no?
In fact, I am just playing around with my Arduino right now, and got the DHT11 sensor working on it (still trying to figure out how to make a graph output though). My temp and humidity in my general vicinity (not near the plants) is 22 degC and 39-40%RH (dewpoint 7.5 )
I need to get it hooked up to the LCD display next, then I can use it as my portable Humidistat and Thermometer with a 9V battery...
But man... learning to code is not easy ...

EDIT: Good news... all the Sashas are now budding. I guess a little bitching at them didn't hurt. Or maybe they knew I was posting about the Juliets and got all jealous.

Spheda, get yourself some unsulphured molasses as organic, handy ph-down. Also feeds your soil food web of course so its win-win.

I use it liberally


edit: super soil (or any soil) acts as a buffer - and i'd imagine a gentle ph-down - which is probably why the guy you're watching is adding slightly alkiline water.

edit2: agreed with heckler about temps in veg tent being waayyy to high if that wasnt a typo... But heckler, 22C seems rather low for your own... I would expect sub-optimal co2 absorbance at that temp.

SnotBoogie said:

Spheda, get yourself some unsulphured molasses as organic, handy ph-down. Also feeds your soil food web of course so its win-win.

I use it liberally


edit: super soil (or any soil) acts as a buffer - and i'd imagine a gentle ph-down - which is probably why the guy you're watching is adding slightly alkiline water.

edit2: agreed with heckler about temps in veg tent being waayyy to high if that wasnt a typo... But heckler, 22C seems rather low for your own... I would expect sub-optimal co2 absorbance at that temp.

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Yes, I thought it was somewhat buffering. I'm just fuzzy on the mechanism--what chemistry is at play. I just use more acidic water to make sure the Phosphorous is available.

As for the 293K temperature, it's actually near perfect for my tomatoes (298K is a sweet spot, though, according to those who know more than me).
But you are right, I could probably benefit a little from getting the air temp up. Keep in mind, this measurement I made was not in the zone. And I am near a window
And when I am in the zone, it is warmer than ambient (the LED is pumping out some heat along with the heating mat).
But I will test my little science station later, when I can get it to save the readings (I figured out how to graph the data at least... PROGRESS!)

On another note of progress, I upgraded my Hobo CO2 to pump out more. The 1/4tsp yeast 3/4cup sugar recipe is LONG lasting... but slow... 1/2tsp of Yeast turned up the CO2 output by a factor of 2 (not sure how linear that relationship is all the way up... it must roll off like any predator-prey model). So now I should see some difference in growth response even though the sacrifice is less operating lifetime. But we'll see...
Now if I could just find a component that reads CO2... hmmm

Oh sorry, i always forget you aren't growing the devil weed Heckler

SnotBoogie said:

Oh sorry, i always forget you aren't growing the devil weed Heckler

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...for the moment
I do intend on entering a Party Cup comp down the road... But I must master this Arduino first. It is key to my battle strategy...

SnotBoogie said:

Spheda, get yourself some unsulphured molasses as organic, handy ph-down. Also feeds your soil food web of course so its win-win.

I use it liberally

...

edit2: agreed with heckler about temps in veg tent being waayyy to high if that wasnt a typo...

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Interesting. I'll look into it. Thanks for the tip.

Nope, no typo. Temps in the veg tent were 100 for a few hours yesterday. We had a high of 67 around here and my grow room is right over the garage so I see large swings between summer and winter temps. It gets warmest and coolest where I'm at. I realize this is no good, hence my comments on window AC units and a ghetto man's swamp cooler using a central home humidifier.

Ooooooo Mother Nature and her four seasons...

makes us really work for it

Psu had some #'s hitting 103 at one point and said he was still satisfied with the outcome.

Everything is still going along well.
Flowers galore, and stacking on more!

Sasha triplets...


The Juliets...
The first two pics are from the same plant. I didn't notice it at first, but there are a 2nd round of buds coming out on the 3rd node above the 1st set (the way it should be). I believe I caught both sets in the other photos.


And since there are flowers opening up, it's time to be the BEE...
I have an old electric toothbrush that happens to have a laterally oscillating head, so I used that...


Nice action shot, eh?

As for the zone itself, its becoming something of a cluster-fuck, to put it bluntly.


I need the weather to clear up pretty quick so I can start putting at least the Juliets outside. I've already prepped the ground, threw down some compost, mixed it in. I have another 28L of Pro-Mix General Potting soil ready to go... It's almost good enough now, but I'm still measuring 289K at my window using my (still) functioning DHT11 Arduino Portable Super-Science-Lab 3000-X v1.0 utensil. The roots need to be in at least 291K soil to keep from going into shock, so until I can be sure they won't endure such temps, I need to hold off the transplant.
Hmmm... I do have these sealed temperature probes... I bet I could hook them up to the arduino and stuff them underground to check... but I still haven't figured out how to datalog remotely. I may need an SD card attachment for that purpose...

As for the Parsley and Basil, they have sprouted, too. I'm looking forward to being able to have them alongside the Sasha I keep indoors.
Although, I better find out what their nutritional requirements are pretty quick. I think I'll start with the GH 3-part, anyway, in the same ratio as I used before.


And that's it for now... hopefully I'll start seeing some fruit in the next week or so. That at least will be a little more exciting...
But damn, if only you could see the glow of the resin... That's one cool thing about tomatoes; you get some of the "eye-candy" joy that you receive from growing Cannabis.

Bumping Spheda - can you give an update on your MadebyMerry supplemental lights? I've got a set of 1w astir-esque panels on the way from her.

heckler: Your bud sites are packed, wtf! Is that just the genetics? My plants seem to have four buds per site. Looking good, though, my man. Super healthy.

caretak3r: I can't complain. She did her job wonderfully and made construction of my panels an absolute cinch. I'm not exactly sure what information you're looking for so I'll just stay safe and say more than you probably want to hear.

First of all, they're still working. No driver/LED failures as should be expected. One was being used to veg an mmj plant and seemed to be performing very well, but now they're all within the flowering tent hung vertically being used as supplemental. It's difficult to say whether or not the White LED's have the same spectral distribution that I imagine them to have. Whether or not they're "the best" spectrum for plants is a moot point, imo, but at this price point I'd say just throw another panel or two over your plants with brute force -as opposed to finesse- in mind.

This is a more general statement and not directed specifically towards these panels, but the driver puts out more heat than the LED's themselves. In retrospect, especially after seeing ganja2's grow, I probably didn't even need to heat sink the panels, the LED's put off such little heat. So if you're worried about temps keep the drivers remote. I'd have a bigger tangle of wires, yes, but it could be managed and I'd enjoy a degree less here and there in both my tents. Tbh, I should have heat sinked the drivers instead of the panels, I'd probably have gotten more mileage out of that route. >.< But, regardless, if you like my build I would recommend using 1/4 size baking pans (assuming you went with the 6 row, 6 column -36 LED's- heatsink core that Merry sells) as it's a nice match in size, provides good durability seeing as the heatsink core could easily be bent if ever you weren't careful with them, and are really cheap with just a little digging around.

More on spectrum, I don't have any experience with these panels and flowering an mmj plant, but I'm willing to bet their performance depends mostly on what LED's you chose (wavelengths/CCT/ratio).

Bumping Spheda said:

heckler: Your bud sites are packed, wtf! Is that just the genetics? My plants seem to have four buds per site. Looking good, though, my man. Super healthy.

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I doubt it's just genetics. These are two different strains, one heirloom, one modern...
But comparing to a beefsteak, which is a MASSIVE fruit, it would make sense for yours to have less flowers per bunch.
The only other thing I can think of other than that would be spectrum and nutes. Perhaps the Phosphorous boost I've been giving them (remember, Cooper's called for 60ppm, I'm cranking 200+) is having an effect?
It's a good question... I should ponder that, because I didn't even notice the difference relative to yours.

Bumping Spheda said:

caretak3r: I can't complain. She did her job wonderfully and made construction of my panels an absolute cinch. I'm not exactly sure what information you're looking for so I'll just stay safe and say more than you probably want to hear.

First of all, they're still working. No driver/LED failures as should be expected. One was being used to veg an mmj plant and seemed to be performing very well, but now they're all within the flowering tent hung vertically being used as supplemental. It's difficult to say whether or not the White LED's have the same spectral distribution that I imagine them to have. Whether or not they're "the best" spectrum for plants is a moot point, imo, but at this price point I'd say just throw another panel or two over your plants with brute force -as opposed to finesse- in mind.

This is a more general statement and not directed specifically towards these panels, but the driver puts out more heat than the LED's themselves. In retrospect, especially after seeing ganja2's grow, I probably didn't even need to heat sink the panels, the LED's put off such little heat. So if you're worried about temps keep the drivers remote. I'd have a bigger tangle of wires, yes, but it could be managed and I'd enjoy a degree less here and there in both my tents. Tbh, I should have heat sinked the drivers instead of the panels, I'd probably have gotten more mileage out of that route. >.< But, regardless, if you like my build I would recommend using 1/4 size baking pans (assuming you went with the 6 row, 6 column -36 LED's- heatsink core that Merry sells) as it's a nice match in size, provides good durability seeing as the heatsink core could easily be bent if ever you weren't careful with them, and are really cheap with just a little digging around.

More on spectrum, I don't have any experience with these panels and flowering an mmj plant, but I'm willing to bet their performance depends mostly on what LED's you chose (wavelengths/CCT/ratio).

Click to expand...

Thanks so much for taking the time to spell out the details. I ordered 4 24Led panels with:
16 X 2700-2800K WW
2 X 6000-6500K NW
4 X 630nm Red
2 X 660nm Red

So, very much astir-like with the exception of the 2 660nm Reds. I also ordered 2 3Led panels (6 leds total) of 730nm FR driven by 1 driver to act as mini pontoons. I'm very height limited so I wanted to try out some 1W panels that can get really close to the plants. I have other lighting that I can supplement with if needed. It'll be a bit before I get a chance to really put this setup to the test.

That sounds awesome. With the Blues in my setup I do try to keep vegetation from getting too close to the panels even though I've yet to see any signs of bleaching (little paranoid). With your specs you shouldn't have any problems, I bet your plants are going to love those things. And your little pontoons! Believe it or not I've thought about building the same EXACT setup you described. I've even thought about building one with UV LED's, she's got a nice selection of those, too.

Hey, if you think you might heat sink the drivers, there's lots of really cheap stuff on eBay like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-25-10MM-Aluminum-Heat-sink-adhesive-for-Voltage-Regulators-ICs-LED-Or-Fan-DIY-/370805340811?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5655b87a8b

And if you don't mind, let us know the final $/W cost of one of your panels. I know at least I'd be interested to know your ballpark.

Merry's also got a lot of different colors, too. I'd like to build a panel with some of her "Wax Yellow," Pink, and Purple LED's. We don't see these CCT's very often, I wonder how the pants would react, if at all.


And random note to all:
VanQ LED has begun testing with partial phosphor coating on their LED arrays. Take a look.

Hopefully they'll start making panels with WW+Red+Deep Red mixes, or something to that effect.

Bumping Spheda said:

And if you don't mind, let us know the final $/W cost of one of your panels. I know at least I'd be interested to know your ballpark.

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Each of the 24Led panels came out ~ $22, the 2 mini pontoons and driver were ~ $24, and shipping fedex was about $30 for all. It wouldn't be fair to Merry to expect exact same pricing as things are dependent on quantity, shipping, availability, etc. She has been an absolutely awesome to work with through the process. She's very nice and professional. I should get everything by next week at the latest. Unfortunately, it may be a little while before I can try everything out - we'll see how i can rearrange my cab.