Libertarian Dilemma

Wavels

Well-Known Member
This critique of the current National Libertarian party is all too accurate.
The Author makes a valid point regarding party's impotence!

In a recent column, I discussed the disaffection of libertarians within the conservative coalition, suggesting that many might be more at home on the political left. A number of readers wrote to say that they agreed with my analysis and had left the Republican Party for the Libertarian Party. Among these is former Republican Rep. Bob Barr of Georgia, who officially joined the Libertarians last week.
Of course, people are free to do what they want to do, and if they want to join the Libertarians, that's their business. But if their goal is to actually change policy in a libertarian direction, then they are making a big mistake, in my opinion. The Libertarian Party is worse than a waste of time. I believe it has done far more to hamper the advancement of libertarian ideas and policies than it has done to advance them. In my view, it is essential for the Libertarian Party to completely disappear before libertarian ideas will again have political currency.

The basic problem with the Libertarian Party is the same problem faced by all third parties: It cannot win. The reason is that under the Constitution a candidate must win an absolute majority in the all-important Electoral College. It won't do just to have the most votes in a three- or four-way race. You have to have at least 270 electoral votes to win, period.
Theoretically, this is no barrier to third parties at the state and local level. But in practice, if a party cannot win at the presidential level, it is very unlikely to achieve success at lower levels of government. In short, the Electoral College imposes a two-party system on the country that makes it prohibitively difficult for third parties to compete.
Furthermore, to the extent that third parties exist, they invariably hurt the party closest to them ideologically. When Ralph Nader ran for president in 2000 and 2004, for example, he didn't hurt George W. Bush, he hurt Al Gore and John Kerry. Maybe a few of Nader's voters wouldn't have voted at all if he hadn't run, but the vast bulk of his votes came from Gore's and Kerry's totals. Needless to say, Gore and Kerry are certainly closer to Nader generally than the man he helped elect.
Over the years, I have known a great many people who have flirted with the Libertarian Party, but were ultimately turned off by its political impotence and immaturity. C-SPAN runs Libertarian conventions, and viewers can see for themselves how unserious and childish they are. They show that the Libertarian Party is essentially a high-school-level debating club where only one question is ever debated -- who is the purest libertarian, and what is the purest libertarian position?
At times, serious people have tried to get control of the Libertarian Party and make it a viable organization. But in the end, the crazies who like the party just as it is have always run them off. In the process, however, they have also run off millions of voters who have supported libertarian candidates at one time or another. After realizing what a waste of time the Libertarian Party is, many became disengaged from politics and don't vote at all.
The result has been that libertarian-leaning activists have been drawn away from the Republican Party and the Democratic Party by the Libertarian Party, leaving the major parties with fewer libertarians. In other words, both major parties have fewer libertarians than they would without the Libertarian Party, meaning that the net result of the party has been to make our government less libertarian than it would otherwise be.
My conclusion is that for libertarian ideas to advance, the Libertarian Party must go completely out of business. It must cease to exist, period. No more candidates, no more wasted votes and no more disillusioned libertarian activists.
In place of the party, there should arise a new libertarian interest group organized like the National Rifle Association or the various pro- and anti-abortion groups. This new group, whatever it is called, would hire lobbyists, run advertisements and make political contributions to candidates supporting libertarian ideas. It will work with both major parties. It can magnify its influence by creating temporary coalitions on particular issues and being willing to work with elected officials who may hold libertarian positions on only one or a handful of issues. They need not hold libertarian views on every single issue, as the Libertarian Party now demands of those it supports.
I believe that this new organization would be vastly more influential than the party and give libertarian ideas far more potency than they now have. As long as the party continues to exist, unfortunately, it will be an albatross around the necks of small-L libertarians, destroying any political effectiveness they might have. It must die for libertarian ideas to succeed.
Townhall.com::Libertarian or libertarian::By Bruce Bartlett
 

ViRedd

New Member
"As long as the party continues to exist, unfortunately, it will be an albatross around the necks of small-L libertarians, destroying any political effectiveness they might have. It must die for libertarian ideas to succeed."

This is exactly what I was told about 20 years ago by a state legislator at a dinner party I attended. He is very well known here in California. He's a Republican, but very libertarian by his principles and voting record. He will make a great governor one day.

Vi


 

DankyDank

Well-Known Member
While the author does make some really good points, I'm not sure I agree with him, especially in regards to the two-party system being impossible to break out of.

I believe that all it would take would be a charismatic leader who could speak to people like a human being. If a fucking flake like Ross Perot can run double digit popularity on an empty platform, think of what a competent leader could do. I really do think that the time is actually ripe for a third party candidate to emerge, and that the vast majority of people are tired of out so-called two party system.

The biggest impediment to third parties is the widespread psychosis that voting third party is "throwing your vote away." If everyone who really wanted to vote third party would actually DO IT instead of settling for the "lesser of two evils", we WOULD actually get somewhere.

I certainly agree that the party should focus on realistic issues, and turn their backs on those libertarians who are nothing more than dork philosophers living in "what if" land. It's a party, it's not a religion... it's okay to acknowledge that while Ayn Rand was brilliant, she was also a bit of a kook.

All of that said.... measuring libertarian progress in terms of the presidency is silly. Progress has to come from the bottom first, and we have a long way to go in terms of freeing the average joe from the teat of government.
 

ViRedd

New Member
How people vote for, and/or support parties that produce the likes of Bob Dole and John Edwards is beyond me.

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
How people vote for, and/or support parties that produce the likes of Bob Dole and John Edwards is beyond me.

Vi
Obviously, way beyond. I'll agree with the Bob Dole thing, but respectfully decline to agree with the John Edwards bashing. John Edwards came from a middle class background. His Father was a factory worker in the South. His family struggled with all the struggles poor and lower middle class people struggle with. He is more in touch with the average American than any other candidate I've seen since I've been alive, Just because John Edwards wants to end the war and repeal the rich mans tax cuts, you libertarians trash him. I can only say a prayer every day of my life that libertarians never get any real power in this country. Us, the working class would surely be more indentured to the slave market we now call capitalism, with a lot less rewards!
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Hey Vi and DankyD.........I agree with your excellent posts. I have been wondering about this problem for many years now. How to launch and sustain a viable third party. An alternative is long overdue. The stench of corruption emanating from the current two party system is becoming stronger and stronger....phewww! Almost everyone can smell it now.

Danky....Ross Perot....I was seriously considering voting for this guy, and then it seemed, in a very short time period, he turned into a gigantic flake....what a gibbering loony!
Something has to give, and soon. I think the time is ripe for a charismatic leader who could wake people up and provide common sense reasons to lend support to a common cause.
The stuff of dreams?

med, apologies in advance, but, IMO, Mr. Edwards is the poster child of the dysfunctional and bloated current system
They don't come much worse than him. Professional, mendacious parasite is about the nicest thing I can manage to say about this loathsome being.
Other than that I don't like him.
 

medicineman

New Member
med, apologies in advance, but, IMO, Mr. Edwards is the poster child of the dysfunctional and bloated current system
They don't come much worse than him. Professional, mendacious parasite is about the nicest thing I can manage to say about this loathsome being.
Other than that I don't like him
. Geeze, you didn't have to be so graphic, An I don't like him would have sufficed. I guess you never had to work in a factory Eh, well the people that have would love Edwards as he is for the common middle class family and not the Elites, as I must assume you are!
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
I guess you can tell that I don't much care for Edwards. My primary point, however, is that we need to move away from guys like Edwards.
Edwards is an attorney, if it were up to me, I would enforce a restriction on lawyers running for, or holding any elective office in the country. Edwards is the worst type of attorney....a tort guy turned politician...he is climbing a rigged system. He is a class warfare liar. He loves to instigate class resentment, when in actuality; current economic indicators show no evidence to support his hateful and untrue notion of "two America's".

And med, you are correct, I never worked in a factory, but I did spend a couple of years in a Letter Shop running an inserting machine, sorting mail, and delivering it to different Post Offices. I worked at moving furniture for a living for quite a bit longer....My hunch is that moving furniture is a little more difficult than factory work!
 

medicineman

New Member
I worked at moving furniture for a living for quite a bit longer....My hunch is that moving furniture is a little more difficult than factory work!
__________________
Well.....hello, a worker, I've got you beat, I was a concrete foreman which is a fancy term for hard labor. If you got 40 years at hard labor (prison) there wouldn't be much of anything harder than pushing concrete in 110 degree heat. I've earned my retirement and then some. But I say you're wrong about Edwards. Edwards was an ambulance chaser, but has reformed after he made millions in a class action lawsuit, one that was well deserved. Anyway, I believe he is genuine and really cares about America and where it's headed. If America continues on the path it's been on for the last 50 years, there will be 2 Americas, Rich and poor, no middle class. I don't know your status and really don't care except for your ideas. The middle class is slipping away. If you are a yuppie, then your position might be to think the workers want something for nothing. Let me say this about that: With very few exceptions, all the guys I've worked with over the years (there's been quite a few) were hard workers and gave a days work for a days pay. There were a few whiners, but overall, most employees wanted to do a good job. There is satisfaction in doing a good job and a persons psyche needs that to feel whole, to feel needed, to feel fulfilled. I believe they train management to look for the whiners and breed malcontents. BTW, I have a degree in Business management that I pissed on after I watched Management at work in So. Cal. Edison. I could have been a district manager and walked away> Was that smart, I guess not in a business sense, but I couldn't stand the holier than thou attitudes of middle management. They were very small people in the mental dept. My opinion of managers is pretty dismal. They kiss the asses of the ones above them, and rant and rave on the ones below, fence stradlers all! Fuck em is my motto. I did my work and never kissed ass and never had a manager give me grief.., I'm so glad I'm retired and out of the rat race. Now my grandkids are my boss..........
 

DankyDank

Well-Known Member
Edwards was an ambulance chaser, but has reformed after he made millions in a class action lawsuit, one that was well deserved.

NOBODY deserves to make millions in any kind of class action suit. Lawyers of this stripe are moneygrubbing scumsuckers. They are nothing more than gangsters who steal our money with the stroke of a pen. I have more respect for outright mobsters- at least they put themselves at personal risk while they are robbing us blind.

That part about reforming AFTER getting millions was pretty funny too.... that's not called "reforming," it's called "retiring." Reforming would involve returning the pilfered funds.
 

medicineman

New Member
have more respect for outright mobsters- at least they put themselves at personal risk while they are robbing us blind.
I take it your not a lawyer, and from your vehement response, you must have been fucked over by one. I personally don't have a very high opinion of attorneys either, But in my humble opinion, in this case it really has no bearing on whether John Edwards would make a good president or not. You have to read the candidates as best you can, and in this instance, I see a good man who is looking out for working (Middle class) Americans. Obviously you are either not middle class, or you just don't like Edwards for some other reason. My Ideal ticket would be Obama-Edwards, What would yours be? (Hitler-Stalin) comes to mind!
 

ViRedd

New Member
Hey, Med ... You constantly rail against the cost of medical care in this county, and against the "rich, greedy bastards." Well, surprise, surprise, surprise! Its Edwards and his ilk who have driven up the cost of medical care in this country ... while making millions doing it. Edwards is PERSONALLY responsible for the decline in natural births and the dramatic increase of cesarian births. Do a little research and you'll find the truth.

Edwards is no factory worker ... he is a blood-sucking attorney who has caused the rapid decline in doctors who are willing to practice child medicine in this country.

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
Hey, Med ... You constantly rail against the cost of medical care in this county, and against the "rich, greedy bastards." Well, surprise, surprise, surprise! Its Edwards and his ilk who have driven up the cost of medical care in this country ... while making millions doing it. Edwards is PERSONALLY responsible for the decline in natural births and the dramatic increase of cesarian births. Do a little research and you'll find the truth.

Edwards is no factory worker ... he is a blood-sucking attorney who has caused the rapid decline in doctors who are willing to practice child medicine in this country.

Vi
Geeze, cut him a break, he's retired and trying to do some repentence for cryin out loud. How can you blame all that on one man, Bolderdash!
 

medicineman

New Member
Did you do the research on Edwards before making that last post? I suspect not. Here you go, Med ... I did the research for you: Did 'Junk Science' Make John Edwards Rich? -- 01/20/2004

Vi
Here's the key to that obsequious bit of news: But a political critic with extensive knowledge of Edwards' legal career in North Carolina told CNSNews.com a different story

"Edwards always helped the little guy as long as he got a million dollars out of it," said the source, who did not want to be identified. I wonder why, he might have been sued for slander eh! You can always google an opposing opinion about anything, thats what makes it so wonderful, knowledge at the touch of a button! Long live the internet, the last vestiges of freedom!
 

ViRedd

New Member
Ahhh, yeah ... but that doesn't change the fact that Edwards is a trial lawyer's trial lawyer. He has personally driven up the cost of malpractice insurance so high that the baby doctors are finding other areas to practice medicine.

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
Ahhh, yeah ... but that doesn't change the fact that Edwards is a trial lawyer's trial lawyer. He has personally driven up the cost of malpractice insurance so high that the baby doctors are finding other areas to practice medicine.

Vi
Do you think the greedy insurance companies had anything to do with it?
 

DankyDank

Well-Known Member
Obviously you are either not middle class, or you just don't like Edwards for some other reason. My Ideal ticket would be Obama-Edwards, What would yours be? (Hitler-Stalin) comes to mind!
1. I make just a little over 30,000 a year. I think that makes me lower middle class.

2. I have never personally been fucked over by a lawyer. However, my mother in law is an attorney who specializes in employee/employer law, and she specifically goes after corporate employers and rapes them. Legally, of course. She made 400,000 dollars last month.

3. I don't know a thing about Edwards except what i read in your post, and was only responding to the fact that he won millions in a class action suit.

4. I would like to see the Dems run Hillary and the Reps run McCain. (Please keep in mind that I wouldn't vote for a republican or a democrat under any circumstances, I just think it would be fun to watch.)
 

ViRedd

New Member
$400,000 in one month? Man, if she keeps that up, she'll be right in there with real estate agents. *lol*

I'd like to see Hillary run too with John Edwards as a running mate. And on the other side, a Condi Rice/Alan Keyes ticket. Just imagine the debates and the pool of liberal muck that would be left in the wake.

Vi
 
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