HLG vs HGL Side By Side Take 2

SSGrower · Jun 21, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
I'd like to come to Hybridway's defence.

Side-by-side grows are always going to be flawed, because you simply can't control every variable. The only way to truly pit two lights against each other is to do repeated - and repeatable (as far as you can) - tests and compare the trends. We've all seen it: same strain, same lights, same feeding schedule, same blah, blah, but one plant always seems to do better than the other, and it could be anything from the position of the pot to the extra handful of potting mix or coco, to the draft under the door or proximity to the fan or whatever.

That aside, it's pretty easy to measure which light is more efficient than the other - we don't need a grow-off for that.

So what's left? Spectrum. And maybe I'm being a bit selfish here, but I'm not interested in knowing which light is more efficient - I already know the answer to that. So I'm not really interested in him running them at the same wattage.

What I am interested in is comparing the two spectra side-by-side with the same PPFD readings. Now even that - I recognise - is flawed, as the HGL has added 730nm which won't show up on most PAR meters (not the Apogee at least). But it is still a pretty good comparison.

And we can measure a number of things by it. Yield, structure, quality etc. We can also determine, to a point, how much extra yield a good spectrum is worth - all else being (fairly) even. Then we can look at the trade-off between efficiency and efficacy (targetted spectrum) to see if it really is worth, for example, using less efficient LEDs that provide a better spectrum. Or even more efficient LEDs (monos) that provide a better spectrum.

At some point we all need to stop talking shit and start trying shit! Which is what @hybridway2 is doing (and I don't envy him!). Because there is a bit of method to all this madness, and I wouldn't be kicking this grow to the curb just yet.

And trust me, I'm no HGL shill. She's a fucking narc - the worst kind of person to have on any grow forum - and I am glad to see the back of her on RIU. But I'm also not going to let that cloud my judgement when it comes to empirical results.

hybridway2 · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
Half the wattage yeah that's fair. It's not a light comparison at all. You say "growth is unmatched" yet you don't use the full potential of the white light so you really have no clue what's better. The fact that you consider any part of this grow a side by side is a joke I really wanted some useful info to come out of this but that clearly won't happen. I really enjoyed most of the stuff you posted before now your just a shill I hope you are at least getting paid

Theres only 3 lights ive evercsaid "Growth is unmatched " (to my knowlede) thats the Hydroponics "Hut spectrum" in veg & the Bar-8 Canna-Spec all around, & the SunCloak as an unmatched producer fir G/sq' & efficiency before serious HE finally kicked in. The Horizons were an unmatched month 1 veg light @ only 100w. Remember that too.
Yes though the HGL'S grow very fast & big.
The Trinity will get another shot to do a better veg all around & have a few plants to veg to flower. Ill use the Trinity & 96's to go against the 84's & the HGL boards. That way we can bump right from veg over to flower with enough lights to cover more then one plant for each side.
That test will include the Bar-8 as well.
We all know the light fixtures themselves are not evenly matched as far as output, so why would you or anyone put their focus there instead of what we have to learn about spd?
Eitherway, it just works out to evenish ppfds.

hybridway2 · Jun 21, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
I'd like to come to Hybridway's defence.

Side-by-side grows are always going to be flawed, because you simply can't control every variable. The only way to truly pit two lights against each other is to do repeated - and repeatable (as far as you can) - tests and compare the trends. We've all seen it: same strain, same lights, same feeding schedule, same blah, blah, but one plant always seems to do better than the other, and it could be anything from the position of the pot to the extra handful of potting mix or coco, to the draft under the door or proximity to the fan or whatever.

That aside, it's pretty easy to measure which light is more efficient than the other - we don't need a grow-off for that.

So what's left? Spectrum. And maybe I'm being a bit selfish here, but I'm not interested in knowing which light is more efficient - I already know the answer to that. So I'm not really interested in him running them at the same wattage.

What I am interested in is comparing the two spectra side-by-side with the same PPFD readings. Now even that - I recognise - is flawed, as the HGL has added 730nm which won't show up on most PAR meters (not the Apogee at least). But it is still a pretty good comparison.

And we can measure a number of things by it. Yield, structure, quality etc. We can also determine, to a point, how much extra yield a good spectrum is worth - all else being (fairly) even. Then we can look at the trade-off between efficiency and efficacy (targetted spectrum) to see if it really is worth, for example, using less efficient LEDs that provide a better spectrum. Or even more efficient LEDs (monos) that provide a better spectrum.

At some point we all need to stop talking shit and start trying shit! Which is what @hybridway2 is doing (and I don't envy him!). Because there is a bit of method to all this madness, and I wouldn't be kicking this grow to the curb just yet.

And trust me, I'm no HGL shill. She's a fucking narc - the worst kind of person to have on any grow forum - and I am glad to see the back of her on RIU. But I'm also not going to let that cloud my judgement when it comes to empirical results.

Thank you! Well said! I just wind up swearing n getting frustrated when i have to respond to that stuff.

SSGrower · Jun 21, 2019

hybridway2 said:
Thank you! Well said! I just wind up swearing n getting frustrated when i have to respond to that stuff.

There are more than a few of us here that support what you are doing, real world garden.

Ryante55 · Jun 21, 2019

hybridway2 said:
Theres only 3 lights ive evercsaid "Growth is unmatched " (to my knowlede) thats the Hydroponics "Hut spectrum" in veg & the Bar-8 Canna-Spec all around, & the SunCloak as an unmatched producer fir G/sq' & efficiency before serious HE finally kicked in. The Horizons were an unmatched month 1 veg light @ only 100w. Remember that too.
Yes though the HGL'S grow very fast & big.
The Trinity will get another shot to do a better veg all around & have a few plants to veg to flower. Ill use the Trinity & 96's to go against the 84's & the HGL boards. That way we can bump right from veg over to flower with enough lights to cover more then one plant for each side.
That test will include the Bar-8 as well.
We all know the light fixtures themselves are not evenly matched as far as output, so why would you or anyone put their focus there instead of what we have to learn about spd?
Eitherway, it just works out to evenish ppfds.

I personally want to know which light works better that's clearly not what you are trying to find out you are doing a spectrum comparison you really can't consider it a side by side without using the full potential of the lights.

DonBrennon · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
I personally want to know which light works better that's clearly not what you are trying to find out you are doing a spectrum comparison you really can't consider it a side by side without using the full potential of the lights.

Do the test yourself then?????

hybridway2 · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
I personally want to know which light works better that's clearly not what you are trying to find out you are doing a spectrum comparison you really can't consider it a side by side without using the full potential of the lights.

What do u mean by works better? Covers more area at less watts? Uh-duh

Thundercat · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
I personally want to know which light works better that's clearly not what you are trying to find out you are doing a spectrum comparison you really can't consider it a side by side without using the full potential of the lights.

This was ALWAYS about the spectrum. How have you not understood that? The efficiency wasn't up for debate, the cost wasn't up for debate, it was always about the SPD!

Ryante55 · Jun 21, 2019

Thundercat said:
This was ALWAYS about the spectrum. How have you not understood that? The efficiency wasn't up for debate, the cost wasn't up for debate, it was always about the SPD!

Then it's not an hlg vs hgl side by side an tells nothing about the lights.
Edit: hgl claims her lights beat higher output fixtures by 4x I thought that was going to be tested

hybridway2 · Jun 21, 2019

Thundercat said:
This was ALWAYS about the spectrum. How have you not understood that? The efficiency wasn't up for debate, the cost wasn't up for debate, it was always about the SPD!

Correct you are! I'm not here to waste time I want to gain is much useful information for the community as possible.
The fact that some do not want to go up against the new RGB boards tells you right there they don't care about the truth they just care about supporting white light probably because that's their current purchases.
My rooms full of white based LED light you don't think me of all people would want to shy away from finding out that R GB would be the winner? Any idea what that would do sales for the company that I support? But I'm not Shying away From it. Instead taking it head on, need to know. UnitFarm wasnt making claims that had to be solved. Nope, only HGL (An Epistar user) stepped up to defend a properly tuned burple.
Claims will not go untested as long as im around. And yes, there will be several more tests to verify my outcomes from me & others.

Ryante55 · Jun 21, 2019

DonBrennon said:
Do the test yourself then?????

$2000 to cover a 4x4 and have less output I won't be paying for that test. The title of the thread is misleading. I'm sure another thread will start up anyways this side by side won't happen when the new hgl lights come out they will get another one started an trash this one but hey hybrid probably sold a few lights for her from this thread

Thundercat · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
$2000 to cover a 4x4 and have less output I won't be paying for that test. The title of the thread is misleading. I'm sure another thread will start up anyways this side by side won't happen when the new hgl lights come out they will get another one started an trash this one but hey hybrid probably sold a few lights for her from this thread

Nothing misleading about it. The 2 lights are getting tested side by side at the same ppfd to compare the spectral impact on plant growth. If you bothered to actually read any of it, instead of constantly having some snarky bullshit comment to make maybe you would realize that.

Dude, stop being a useless troll. The trolls are the only reason a new thread got started for this grow, and you are doing it again. If you don't like how the grow is ran, the shut the fuck up and go away.

If you only care about efficiency and not about SPD then go buy another white light and stop even looking at these.

hybridway2 · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
Then it's not an hlg vs hgl side by side an tells nothing about the lights.
Edit: hgl claims her lights beat higher output fixtures by 4x I thought that was going to be tested

Wtf do u wanna know about the lights ? The 84x's n similar models are discontinued. If you're that Impressed by them then why don't you hit up Cammi and ask her if you can buy overstock for half price.
Yeah, as a matter i fac why dont you limit yourself to the original Troll thread in regards to this. Thank you! You will have more voice there any ways and maybe even a few buddies To troll along with.

DonBrennon · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
$2000 to cover a 4x4 and have less output I won't be paying for that test. The title of the thread is misleading. I'm sure another thread will start up anyways this side by side won't happen when the new hgl lights come out they will get another one started an trash this one but hey hybrid probably sold a few lights for her from this thread

I doubt very much that anybody has purchased an HGL light so far, off the back of this, or any associated thread. Have you actually read it?

But guess what. It's Hybrids grow room/thread and he can chose to do whatever he wants in it. If you're not interested in the outcome of 'his' experiment, you know where the door is.

hybridway2 · Jun 21, 2019

What some r forgetting is the clones when they were in the cloner, growing under Trinity. That was huge, bigger then my hand leaves & stalks. Yes. Its hydro kindve but with 3 mo. Old water just keep adding & barely any CloneX. So that tells me i need to veg new plants under each lights to determine exactly what they do morphologically to each plant. Thats speaking only on my other plants cuz tgey were all over the place & neglected.
But the comp plants r what they r. Gnats got me on the veg. On that one plant, Apologies to Hlg for that.

Black-Thumb · Jun 21, 2019

hybridway2 said:
What some r forgetting is the clones when they were in the cloner, growing under Trinity. That was huge, bigger then my hand leaves & stalks. Yes. Its hydro kindve but with 3 mo. Old water just keep adding & barely any CloneX. So that tells me i need to veg new plants under each lights to determine exactly what they do morphologically to each plant. Thats speaking only on my other plants cuz tgey were all over the place & neglected.
But the comp plants r what they r. Gnats got me on the veg. On that one plant, Apologies to Hlg for that.

I'm betting they will be totally cool about it. They seem super laid back, professional, and reasonable. Keep up the good work.

Prawn Connery · Jun 21, 2019

Ryante55 said:
Then it's not an hlg vs hgl side by side an tells nothing about the lights.
Edit: hgl claims her lights beat higher output fixtures by 4x I thought that was going to be tested

Ryante55 said:
$2000 to cover a 4x4 and have less output I won't be paying for that test. The title of the thread is misleading. I'm sure another thread will start up anyways this side by side won't happen when the new hgl lights come out they will get another one started an trash this one but hey hybrid probably sold a few lights for her from this thread

Mate, I hear what you're saying, but you'd have to be a bit silly to go out and buy a HGL on the back of this thread when the plants haven't even flowered yet! I don't think any of us are that naive.

These are two very different lights, so ask yourself: what are we actually trying to compare here? Price? We already know which one is cheaper. Efficiency? We already know which one is more efficient. Build quality? We can all see what's what.

So what does that leave? Spectrum. That is the one difference we can only deduce by growing side-by-side. So it makes sense to focus on that. If we really want to compare efficiency, then it's only a matter of dividing grams per watt - all else being equal.

I'd argue we can potentially learn more by focusing on the spectral differences than the obvious ones that can be measured by other means.

If you have another view, then by all means: what, exactly, should @hybridway2 be comparing?

Bourbon 2 · Jun 23, 2019

hybridway2 said:
Correct you are! I'm not here to waste time I want to gain is much useful information for the community as possible.
The fact that some do not want to go up against the new RGB boards tells you right there they don't care about the truth they just care about supporting white light probably because that's their current purchases.
My rooms full of white based LED light you don't think me of all people would want to shy away from finding out that R GB would be the winner? Any idea what that would do sales for the company that I support? But I'm not Shying away From it. Instead taking it head on, need to know. UnitFarm wasnt making claims that had to be solved. Nope, only HGL (An Epistar user) stepped up to defend a properly tuned burple.
Claims will not go untested as long as im around. And yes, there will be several more tests to verify my outcomes from me & others.

Question, have you experienced growth like this with hlg ? I turned it down today from 560 to 375w, the canopy penetration is intense! Last weekend I butchered 2 plants and waited until today to butcher the 3rd. Here are photos of the results. BTW, great bench study, keep up the good work :peace:

hybridway2 · Jun 23, 2019

Bourbon 2 said:
Question, have you experienced growth like this with hlg ? I turned it down today from 560 to 375w, the canopy penetration is intense! Last weekend I butchered 2 plants and waited until today to butcher the 3rd. Here are photos of the results. BTW, great bench study, keep up the good work

Damn man, im sorry to hear/see that. Yes, its what ive been saying for awhile now. Are you in CoCo?
Looks like Classic "LedDefficiency " to me.
White led man, idk why but some just struggle. You magging up? And P. And Cal. Oh, dont forget the rest everyone else will tell you you're doing wrong. Cant be the spectrum. :roll:

Now you see why im at lower #'s on the HLG side. I too use 300w mostly.
Idk how i will flower at 525w. Its not even that the #'s are that high either. I just did some #'s & heights. I was growing around 34" w/300w to be safe. So just mow i dropped the light to 28"-30", staying at 300w. This gave me almost matching #'s to the HGL plant which is using only 2, 84x's @va lil less then 300w.
I took before pics just now.
Here they are, will update tom to see if the 500 umol ,300w, / 28-30" is to much or not fir the HLG Comp plant.?. Trying to get her to catch up by spreading her open the other day.
Anyways, now we have matching wattage & intensity, lets see what happens.??..
34"/300w

28-30"/300w

Approximately 125 Oooohhmols stronger by being 6" closer. But what will our plant say?
Its the way the boards are so strong in a compact area i feel.

x2 , 84x's / 288w, 24"

2 hitting plant, plant response is happy. Getting to big so i did not spread her out. Shell see trellis in the next few days.

Ryante55 · Jun 23, 2019

hybridway2 said:
Damn man, im sorry to hear/see that. Yes, its what ive been saying for awhile now. Are you in CoCo?
Looks like Classic "LedDefficiency " to me.
White led man, idk why but some just struggle. You magging up? And P. And Cal. Oh, dont forget the rest everyone else will tell you you're doing wrong. Cant be the spectrum.
Now you see why im at lower #'s on the HLG side. I too use 300w mostly.
Idk how i will flower at 525w. Its not even that the #'s are that high either. I just did some #'s & heights. I was growing around 34" w/300w to be safe. So just mow i dropped the light to 28"-30", staying at 300w. This gave me almost matching #'s to the HGL plant which is using only 2, 84x's @va lil less then 300w.
I took before pics just now.
Here they are, will update tom to see if the 500 umol ,300w, / 28-30" is to much or not fir the HLG Comp plant.?. Trying to get her to catch up by spreading her open the other day.
Anyways, now we have matching wattage & intensity, lets see what happens.??..
34"/300wView attachment 4354553 View attachment 4354557 28-30"/300wView attachment 4354558 View attachment 4354559 Approximately 125 Oooohhmols stronger by being 6" closer. But what will our plant say?
Its the way the boards are so strong in a compact area i feel. View attachment 4354560 x2 , 84x's / 288w, 24"View attachment 4354561 View attachment 4354562 2 hitting plant, plant response is happy. Getting to big so i did not spread her out. Shell see trellis in the next few days. View attachment 4354563 View attachment 4354564 View attachment 4354565

So hgl gets the ppfd advantage? I thought their spectrum was 4x better I guess you can't trust the owner of hgl she needs more ppfd with a "better spectrum" to match the white light of hlg

HLG vs HGL Side By Side Take 2

Who do you think will win?

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