Going organic... something to think about

Hi all, my first post here but i have searched through these posts for a while now and have learned a lot. This post however is on a topic that i have seen to be somewhat controversial based on the way people get almost pissed off about it... i'm speaking of course about organic growing.

Now i have gone organic with my first grow. I used biobizz bio-grow and root juice for veg and bio-bloom for flowering and let me say first off.. it turned out great. I am one that believes that using organic nutes will give you subtle variations that perhaps more traditional or cheaper ferts would not give you.

HOWEVER, this time around i used root juice and bio-grow during veg but during flowering i stepped the plants up on schultz liquid plant food 10-15-10 then one that was 15-30-15 then schultz bloom plus which i believe is 10-54-10. There was no real reason... i just wanted to see for myself why everyone is so pissed at miracle gro, schultz, etc.... so i tried em for shits and giggles. Honestly... if u dilute them some and DO NOT USE THEM AT FULL STR. at least at first.... these worked great for ME.

The only reason i post this is because it seems that i have seen folks get really upset in posts and claiming that basically... one would be putting the equivalent of massive amounts of DEADLY POISON into yourself by using anything BUT organic. WHAT? I hear statements like "they contain man-made chemicals.... well of course they do... BUT it seems to me that we in the western world have become so spoiled by technology and abundance that we have almost reverted backwards because we can. Now before i catch the third degree about this, i want to say that i do belive that in a perfect world, organic would be the best choice... however we don't live in a perfect world.

You hear people going crazy over organic growing and not only of bud but of foods too. Again.. i do think that they would probably have better taste (both food and bud lol) BUT do you really think if you were living in impoverished conditions that you would care if the food that you buy at the store just to keep your family alive... (not for it's taste qualities or because someone told you it was grown naturally) do you really believe that it would matter? The only way we will ever be able to feed the world is by USING CHEMICALS right? Otherwise plagues of insects such as locusts for example would wipe every bit of organically grown vegetation away very quickly. Also.. people tend to throw the word chemicals around too much in my opinion. There are plenty of natural CHEMICALS that will kill you dead. Just because something is grown naturally doesn't mean it's done to the maximum benefit of humanity. Growing a larger vegetable with "man-made" ferts may just save someone's life.

Please keep in mind that i do agree that organic growing is the way to go if you have the means and you enjoy the subtle characteristics of an orgaically grown plant. My reason for posting this is not to attack those that choose to grow organically but to challenge the point of view that growing organic for organic's sake... it almost seems like a fad looking in from the outside. Tell a cancer patient that they shouldn't take in any "man-made" chemicals. I personally think that there is a fine line between wanting to stay organic for it's true benefits and wanting to do it because you want to keep your body pure. I mean... how many people have died from marijuana usage be it organic or done with plain ol' miracle gro?

To sum up, i just really think we all should be a little more open minded and not get locked into one way of thinking... it doesn't matter to me if it's organic or something that is a safe man made chem... i just want to use what works and until someone tells me that there is a growing stoner death rate from using bud grown with whatever. If you want to grow organic, then by all means you will be happy with the end product!!! But if you just want to go with what you can afford or whatever your circumstance, get whatever works that you want or are able to get. Don't let someone make you believe that you're somehow gonna be putting yourself at risk by tokin up on something that you grew with some miracle gro or schultz.

Saying that something may be bad for you because it's a man made chem is just irresponsible IF there is NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM!!!!!
Saying that organic is better for your body because it's natural without any evidence is wrong if you have NO EVIDENCE.

However saying that organic is better because the end product may be more enjoyable is defidently plausible and with that i have no problem whatsoever.

Thank you for listening and sorry if anyone had posted a reply to this because i accidently hit the post button after my first sentence so i had to edit...

Sorry if i offended anyone.. just my 2 cents and sorry if i went on too long... blame my bud sour D.!!!!!!

Just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this or am i completely alone in my views?

nah i kinda agree

im of the oppinion as long as it works and you dont overdo it, its all good

i have used a few different chemies (organic and man made) and i just gotta say they all work if ya use them right... lol i am currently doing the same test miracle grow powder fertilizer and seasol.. i just wanted an easy grow and let me tell you the plant i am using them on is looking lovely.... although i gotta admit i wanna try the stuff fdd2blk uses. age old i think its called..

i know my oppinions not much of an oppinion bt what can isay im not biast cept where mollases is concerned lol... fuck i reckon watermeleon or at least the juice would do the same for a plant as molasses its all natural sugars and by products... and as far as im concerned mollasass is a cheap trick to add weight to your buds not size but weight... plus id think the shit could also cause problems ie mold attract ants all sortsa crap but thats just my views... i know george cervantes says............ and all that shit about micro nutrients but im still gonna dissagree theres only one way ive heard sugar water used and its dodgy..

just thought id throw that in there... ya should get some contraversy now pimpsterhl.

ive never heard people get mad about organic nutrients, its well known that organic weed is more potent than that grown with chemicals.

Whew lol.. ya i'm at least expecting someone to come along and slap me for saying what i believe is considered today to be blasphemy.

Firstly thanks for the replies... i was stoned and i guess i just thought i'd put it out there.

Glass, i wasn't necessarily saying that people are always lookin to pick fights over the subject, but i have read on several forums where someone will ask if perhaps a certain chem fert would work ok for a small cheap setup and someone pops in and tells em it's a stupid idea to use chem because...(and this is what gets me)...of how it's either somehow completely detremental to the plant or more often i see people saying something to the effect of "you don't want to put that stuff into your body... it is not as safe for your body as organic simply because the chems were used".

If something is simply better for you because it is grown in such a way to emulate the most ideal conditions it would see in nature....or perhaps a better way to state it is to say it would be grown in conditions that are the most ideal FOR THE PLANT using only fuel for it's growth that one may find in nature..... then why are pests...mold..disease... etc. which are natural somehow bad for us?

And if u notice i did say that organic imo is the best way to go if you want to bring out EVERYTHING the bud has to offer...(subtle flavors, aromas, high, and hell i even think it's prettier too lol). Maybe it's just me when i'm high seeing some kind of patterns that aren't really there LOL... i've just seen several threads where someone jumped in, when it wasn't even a question about anything like that, and tried to make someone believe that they would somehow be putting their bodies in more danger than if they toked up on 100% organic bud.

Btw.. good replies this quick is why i keep coming back and reading these forums far more than any other. Thanks all who have put out info from their own hard work for all of us to enjoy fruits of our own labour!!!!!
Thanks again in advance for any replies to my super high rant habit

IMHO, I think it all depends on the application.
Here are some observations I made from my own experience with organic (I didn't use liquid organic nutes, I premixed bloodmeal, bonemeal, worm castings, kelpmeal, GH subcuture, GH silica and lime). I'm not here for an argument, just stating what I observed when doing side by side comparison with organic and chemical.

Organic:
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Advantages:

- Slow. gradual release of nutrients over the life of the plant if done right.
- Lower probability of nutrient overdose (fert burn).
- Stabilizes and buffers PH very well.
- Generally provides a wider variety of micronutrients than chemical?
- Simple, especially when you premix organics in soil. Just water when needed.

Disadvantages:

- Can be unsanitary for indoor environments (higher likelyhood of insects, pathogens, etc.)
- Easier to overwater plants due to high water retention of organic matter (when using premixed organics)
- Slower to finish (from my experience, took two more weeks to finish the same plant than with chem. fert.)
- Preparation time. (You have to "Cook" the soil for a month or so before using to allow the breakdown of the organics into what the plants can use)

Chemical:
---------

Advantages:

- Clean and sterile. Reduces likelyhood of insects and pathogens.
- Ability to give the plants exactly what they need, when they need it.
- Slightly faster growth (In my experience, finished two weeks before organic)
- No or very little preparation of medium. Just add nutes when needed.
- Better drainage of medium due to lack of organic materials = less chance of overwatering.

Disadvantages:

- Easier to overdo fert. and burn plants, and toxify the medium.
- May be missing some micronutrients that organic provides?
- Chance of toxifying the soil in late flowering, making the final product harsh.

These observations obviously don't apply to using liquid organic nutes as I've never had experience with using them. I think the organic vs. chemical debate is subjective. It's a personal thing. Whether you grow organically or chemically, as long as you have a good final product, I say, do whatever works best for you.

However, I will say that with organics you are essentially providing the soil with products that have to break down to chemical salts before they can be absorbed through the root membrane. The fact of the matter is, chemical nutes essentially just skip the middle man and provide the plants with the salts they can absorb directly through their roots. The argument can be made that chemical nutes are less safe because of residual radioactive elements that may or may not be contained in phosphate, etc. but the same argument can be made with organics, ie. where were the organic materials derived from, was there contamination in the originating material (lead, mercury, arsenic, radioactive elements, etc.) So that is a non-argument in my opinion. Organic can be just as toxic as chemical if the source was contaminated. I think the terms "organic" and "green" have become marketing gimmicks to take advantage of the perception that they are safer and/or better for the environment, etc, but it's not always as simple or cut and dry as that.

That's my experienced opinion on the subject for what it's worth.

I dont think there's much of a difference, I think organic brands just make better blends than inexpensive non-organic brands. But I believe that these companies can duplicate their organic formulas exactly in a laboratory, with the exact same results. I think its hype, it really doesn't matter where you get your potash from as long as its not contaminated, whether it was mined, or manually oxidized potassium, It doesn't matter, just ask De Beers.

Well, I'm a newbie MJ grower but a long-time gardener and a plant community ecologist with MS degree, for what it's worth. I've seen a lot of plants prosper, and crash-and-burn, under both methods.

I agree with a number of pros and cons listed here. Organic nutrients and amendments do contain, and potentially deliver biochemical complexities that man-made nutrients can't match. But, a decent soil will already contain these in spades. The idea that adding manufactured nitrogen, phosphate, etc is somehow toxic is silly. The forms of these things in Schultz's, MG, etc are the exact same chemical forms that the plants take up in a completely organic environment. The only difference is how they arrive at that form (man-made: the needed form is delivered directly by the grower, ready to go organic: the needed form is processed biologically from your additives and amendments). That's why it's much easier to burn your plants with man-mades -- they're directly delivered, no intermediary time. But does that make them "toxic"? No more so than too much dolomite might raise your soil pH to 8, 9, or 10... a condition that would be toxic to MJ, but would be loved by other plants. There are plants that are adapted to growing on pure Calcium sulfate (gypsum... this is what your drywall is made out of..). Try eating a handful of that and see where you end up.

Many organic amendments have been tested side-by-side in controlled trials with crops... no clear advantages or disadvantages either way.

Toxicity is always a matter of dose.

I intend to grow fully organic my next time around, as a matter of exploration and to keep things interesting, but not to establish a dogma.

Wow! A lot of very interesting and most of all... OBJECTIVE points!

I want to say that i agree with highpsi on one thing in particular.... the fact that corporations and their marketing lapdogs have turned phrases like "green", "organic", "herbal", "enviro-friendly", "all-natural", and many other tags into meaningless cliches that were most likely derrived from ideas or products that were created with the best of intentions but now are just marketing tools and fads.

Now call me stoned and longwinded LOL but....

In my opinion, human nature being what it is, when these companies get their hands on a new ploy to play on peoples fear and guilt over the enviroment, we tend to get those that again have good intentions BUT end up buying into these ploys because it's flashed in their face all day and they assume that it must be the way to go because everyone else is able to see the value of it. Believing that their information is correct and meaning well, when they run across someone that hasn't bought into corp. America's latest scheme they really want to try to profess to this person why they should go this new route... they even quote evidence that they believe to be true but have never bothered to check because everyone by now believes the same thing.

One thing that i have found to be a very strange but very true result of all this has to do with our innate need to be part of something larger. Even amongst those considered a part of today's counter-culture are affected. People who don't want to be another dot in the crowd...those who desire to be "unique"... even those on the fringe of society... all of them can be bitten by this most ironic of eventualities. From what i've seen it goes like this... Those who try to do what's best either for their bodies or the enviroment or whatever end up trying to separate themselves from the rest of society to be a beacon of change to others.... however the devil as usual is in the details because the very same people that strive so hard to differentiate themselves from the rest of the "idiots" in society that they end up becoming EXACTLY like all the others doing it. The need to differentiate one's self from the crowd ends up being the driving force for one to try so hard to be different that they in turn become just another "fringe" personality and in reality are quite normal.

Whew... okay now that i got all that outta my system i wanna say thank you all for the replies. I just thought it might make for an interesting topic to get points of view and i think this is part of what makes this site unique amongst some of the others. One can come in with a point of view that may not necessarily be in the wrong but defidently isn't of the majority and not get run off for being so dumb as to "question" LOL. The big thing to me is that like i said.. i prefer organic growing and organic finished product myself but that doesn't mean that IF DONE PROPERLY given everything the plant needs yet just in a different form and with a different method of nutrient delivery... chem can be just fine and give everything ya need. Thanks again for the unbiased views expressed here and i welcome any others in advance!!!! Thanks

Anything that man makes with chemicals and or and usually " Petroleum Based, " is deadly.

No, it will not kill most over night or in a week or in years or even decades for some, BUT IT WILL eventually catch up with all!

Proof, I and my wife are living proof to what mans foods and mans way of doing things can do too the human body.

Only one year ago we turned our horrible health around and how did we do it; " by eating foods in their most natural and raw forms and that includes meat. "

Everything we eat is grain fed and raw " we cook NOTHING. "

Results??

Best health that I have ever experianced in my life and the same for my wife.

ALL of our health problems have vanished and we NEVER get sick or ill in any way.

When everyone around us is dealing with sickness and infection, we never deal with any of it anymore.

If I could take what I know about human diet at this point in my life and show the world what it could do to save us, nobody would ever give into their carnal desires for mans foods and mans chemicals again.

Organic is the only way to go for me and if it takes longer to grow " so be it. "

I grow for myself and my wife anyway and I look too grow a full flavored and powerful, smooth smoke and the BEST way too do that, is organic.

Hydro is fast and chemicals are fast and I am sure that they work well for the Cannabis grower that is selling it also, but not for the guy that wants true quality.

I believe that even the most stubborn person could agree with one thing; " nothing beats the flavor and draw from some Cannabis that has been grown slow and organic. "......At least I never have seen any chemical grows that could compare to the taste. "

Be Blessed and Grow Slow........TheNatural

Natural... thx for the reply.

I understand wut ur saying but i guess my only problem is with you saying that it was "PROOF". That's not proof.. that's an anecdote. Proof is EMPERICALLY GATHERED EVIDENCE that can be tested and retested and give the EXACT same data from different sources doing the same test.

Now i'm not saying that what happened to you isn't exactly what you say it is. It is YOUR body and you can put in it WHATEVER you like However, being that food grown properly with chemicals has ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that it kills people IF IT'S DONE CORRECTLY. When you make a statement that it may not kill u today or next wk maybe even decades... it doesn't sound like you are describing food.. it sounds like you are describing the HUMAN CONDITION.... i.e. OLD AGE lol.

None among us is born with perfect DNA... that's why we are still evolving... so when u say that something that happens decades away from now is because of the food....all i can say is... WHERE'S THE PROOF? How do u know it wasn't from years of increasing solar radiation that a cancer developes instead of the chemically grown broccoli? How do u know that it wasn't a dormant gene that was just waiting for a trigger and bam.... u are now the proud owner of diabeties... etc etc etc...

Again..... let me clarify my position...there is a POSSIBILITY that properly grown chemically fertilized food COULD POSSIBLY EVENTUALLY... DECADES AWAY FROM NOW... be harmful to your health... but given that possibility... UNTIL someone is able to show me empirical data that shows WITHOUT A DOUBT that PROPERLY grown plants, veggies, bud, whatever... is tainted somehow and WILL BE.. not might be... harmful for human consumption...i will not be convinced.

Again.. this is not an attack on anyone but i want anyone who reads this to contemplate this idea for one moment.

If it is true that however many decades down the road that you could get sick from eating veggies or tokin chem grown bud or wutever you ingest... if that is true then does it make more sense to sit there your entire life and have to put sooooo much more time into picking every little thing you put into your body so you get an extra few years OR if you eat right.. eat less junk... more veggies... smaller portions... put the joint down for at least a half hour every cpl days and exercise....if u do these things which takes so much less time than scanning every little thing you buy you may find that even tho u MAY POSSIBLY live a couple years less....i'd say that one who followed these guidelines instead of being paranoid over every little thing that is "man-made" actually used their life a little more fully even if they got 1-2 yrs less.

Most health problems that have to do with diet can be cured by eating better, eating less, AND EXERCISE. Thats it!

But if you want to go on whatever diet, be it organic, raw, atkins, whatever... IT IS YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE! If you want to smoke only organic bud....IT IS YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE!
Just don't take that personal liberty that we are granted and turn it around to use it as a scare tactic when you only have annecdotal evidence (which really is no evidence) to back it up.

I hope i didn't pee anyone off being such a new poster here... but i have just always been firm in my beliefs and i have found typically that an alarmist viewpoint is typically a wrong one... (OUR NEED TO GO TO GET THOSE WMD'S IN IRAQ) LOL.

Thanks again all for your time and ear... umm eye... errr whatever

Proof, I and my wife are living proof to what mans foods and mans way of doing things can do too the human body.

Only one year ago we turned our horrible health around and how did we do it; " by eating foods in their most natural and raw forms and that includes meat. "

Everything we eat is grain fed and raw " we cook NOTHING. "

Results??

Best health that I have ever experianced in my life and the same for my wife.

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I believe you, but that's not proof that organic is healthier than chemically grown food. That just prooves that eating a healthy, mostly raw food diet with lots of fruits and vegetables is good for you and is what the human body was evolved to eat. This is fairly obvious to everybody including the scientific and medical community. Even the American cancer society states that fully 1/3 of all cancers can be prevented by eating lots of fruits and vegetables. I'd say they're being conservative and in reality the number is probably even higher than that.

There have been some studies done on hydroponically grown food, and in some cases hydroponically grown fruits and vegetables are even more nutritious than other methods of growing, why? Because the plant is provided with the exact PH, nutrients, and environment it needs to flourish.

A nutritional study published recently claimed that hydroponics produce was higher in certain vitamins than field grown produce. The study was carried out in San Jose, California, by Plant Research Technologies Incorporated. Several varieties of tomatoes and sweet peppers were tested for vitamins A, B1 (thiamin), B2 (riboflavin), B3 (niacin), B6 (pyridoxine), vitamin C and vitamin E. The study showed a dramatic increase in vitamins and minerals in hydroponics, in some cases up to 50% higher vitamin content.

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While I respect your decision to eat (and smoke) only organic produce, I think your conclusion about chemically grown plants is misguided. I will repeat what I said in my earlier post and that is, it doesn't matter what method you use to grow as long as the plant is lush, green, and healthy throughout its life cycle, right to harvest and hasn't been sprayed with harsh insecticides.

In other words, if you and your wife consumed the same produce that you currently consume but it was hydroponically grown with chemical fertilizers, I'm sure you'd find that your health would benefit just as much as it does now with organically grown produce.

I say, to each his own, it's a personal choice . Do what works best for you.

highpsi said:

In other words, if you and your wife consumed the same produce that you currently consume but it was hydroponically grown with chemical fertilizers, I'm sure you'd find that your health would benefit just as much as it does now with organically grown produce.

I say, to each his own, it's a personal choice . Do what works best for you.

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A-freakaleakin men... pass tha doob to the next pew mah brotha!!!!!! Sorry if i get a lil carried away but being one that has always had soft spot... even a love for the beauty of the scientific method... when i hear bias free arguments in this day and time i get a lil shakey rofl.

This notion that man is a danger to himself simply by anything that is MAN-MADE has got to be wiped out... of course man is a danger to himself.... but the danger don't come from a box of chemicals that when used correctly give you healthy plants.... just don't go scarfin down those blue granules like they're pixie stix and YOU WILL BE FINE!

We are far more of a danger to ourselves with the amount of pollution we dump into the air, ground, and water... oh and not to mention that between the U.S. and Russia, we have enuf nuclear devices to completely destroy all life on earth many times over.

I do understand that most that believe this stuff are very well intentioned... but why is it that they are so ardent in their positions as not to budge and the ONLY thing that they typically have is to say that "it worked for me". In this day and time we now know that what works for one person may actually be harmful if not fatal for another. Now i'm not suggesting that the diet spoke of earlier is bad at all... on the contrary. However i'm quite sure that there are millions of americans that would not be able to partake at least completely in that diet because of digestive problems perhaps.

For me it boils down to this.. i really believe that we live in such luxury... even the poorest amongst us live in what would be deemed as wealthy conditions in many countries... we live in such luxury with such little want in our lives that we sort of have to create evil where none exists so that we feel as if we are doing something for the betterment of mankind to ward off this evil. When an easy to use mixture of chems that could be sprayed onto a farmers garden to make more and larger fruits/vegs. that might end up saving a starving child from dying of starvation TODAY.... when we rail against everything man-made... are we really gonna go to the point of saying that kid shouldn't eat anything but organic cuz man-made chems are bad for ya? Even the poorest amongst americans don't die of starvation and that is one of the main reasons.

Sry if i ruined anyone's buzz but i really think it's high time we all realize how great we have it when compared to the BILLIONS of others in the world that would literally kill for our table scraps. Man has survived on rotten foods, raw foods, cooked foods, disease infested foods and water for a hundred thousand yrs. The human body is far stronger than some would have you believe and as long as you treat it right, it does NOT know the diff. of the vitamins that it breaks down in organic/non-organic fruits/vegs. Eat your raw fruits and veggies...eat them in the correct quantities... get your protein from meat... soy or wutever floats ur boat... get in your physical exercise and even some mental exercise if u know wuts good for ya and i promise you that if you treat yourself good you will feel a difference no matter how they were grown as long as the method used was used correctly.

Some very knowledgeable people here, looks like I don't need to add my two cents.

I am using a system that is hydro/aero and I use a combination of nutes. I use GH 3 part in liquid form and I supplement it with Fox Farm additives (they say they are organic). My point is I have the ability to flush out the nutes (with Flora Clean) and I can use Organic flavor additives right before harvest. My chemicals are super clean and they don't clog the res at all. To be honest I'm a rookie, but my brain tells me that the most important thing is a good flush. I would love to see a side by side taste comparison at the Cannabis Cup between organic and inorganic. I've noticed that some organic growers get a little snobby and they won't even consider looking at so called "chemical" additives. All I can say, my shit is growing like it's on fire and I use a lot of little chems. My chems. so far, Gh flora 3 part, Diamond nector, Fox farms, Open Sesame, Beastie Bloomz, Cha Ching, GH floraliscious Gro, Sweet Citrus (organic)

Hello, my name is Boneman and I also use man made nutes

So nobody asked DE Beers?
There is no doubt about it, man can duplicate exactly any naturally made chemical.
Please tell me why it matters in the slightest if your K2O was man made, or mined, the only difference is that mined elements are more expensive, other than that they are chemically identical, there is absolutely no difference, not even one atom misplaced! Come on man, its high-school chemistry,

We can replicate diamonds exactly, our man made diamonds are indistinguishable from natural diamonds, something thought to be impossible, De Beers biggest evil diamond company has said there is absolutly no difference between the wellmade man made dimonds and mined.

Now it is much easier to manufacture k2o because we dont care if our crystalls have flaws, as long as its pure, which for the most part it is.

And according to Americas number one favorite theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, in the next hundred years we will most likely have atom printers, than will print anything your heart desires, atom by atom, you could even print weed, sure their will be nay sayers saying but its not real weed, why not?

Please help me out, I really don't get why the same thing is different because of its origins.

My friends, there is no way for me to take all of the data that I have aquired on this subject and post it.

I wish I could give everyone the easy proof in the many things I have read and experianced first hand and post it all on here in an easy to read paragraph and be done in five minutes.....impossible.

All I can say is if you do the research " outside of any statistics or studies done directly or indirectly by government, " you will see there is a HUGE difference in the way our bodies assimilate vitamins and minerals from synthetics verses getting them from nature in their perfect raw forms.

You will also understand what the body has to go through every time a piece of cooked food is put down your throat and the mutant enzymes that has to be created in order to even half way process them.

Remember that anything that heat is applied too, changes the heated substance on a molecular level and that includes food.

Heat kills the food and its lifeforce.

No debate here " try it and find out, but within 90 days of doing it, you will become a different human being with mental and physical strength that you cannot imagine and especially if you consume large amounts of raw meats. "

No arguments from me, only Blessings.

I just hate too see people in pain as I was in pain too, but had to come out of ignorance and fear to change my life.

Cannabis helped me also, to come out of the fear and blindness when I discovered it also a year ago.

The " Tree Of Renown " is so very much more than just a smoke and I choose too do mine as close to God as possible and that is in the dirt and with my extra effort to supply my girls with natures natural fertilizers. "

To Your Health and Freedom and Happiness........TheNatural

I can make the link between organic vegetables tasting better than veggies grown on a farm with nitrogen fertilizer and no proper nute flush. All I'm saying is I can immediately change the environment and totally flush out my nutes. I can also use "organic" nutes in the final phase of flowering (the phase most likely to hold nute properties). I think there is a big difference between what is eaten and what is smoked.

My friends, there is no way for me to take all of the data that I have aquired on this subject and post it.

I wish I could give everyone the easy proof in the many things I have read and experianced first hand and post it all on here in an easy to read paragraph and be done in five minutes.....impossible.

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Umm... ok i'll bite. First off i didn't ask you to post EVERYTHING you have as proof about it...i asked for ANYTHING that proves that one is better than another for human consumtion as related to the health of the consumer.

Remember that anything that heat is applied too, changes the heated substance on a molecular level and that includes food.

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WOW. Well... let me put it like this... as any evolutionary biologist knows.... if ancient man had taken the raw is best point of view... we wouldn't be half as intelligent as we are now. It was the cooking of food that allowed for our distant ancestors very large jaw muscles to slowly dwindle away cuz they weren't gnawing on raw meat for hrs a night.... this in turn lead to increased cranial volume for the brain to vastly increase in size in the outer higher reasoning centers. Because cooked food is so much easier to chew... man evolved at an ever quickening rate once this key point was reached. The campfire itself that was made to cook the food has long been thought to be one of THE driving forces in human creativity where early man would just sit looking at the fire and THINK.

Also... you say that heat changes things on a molecular level... of course it does..it may even destroy SOME of the nutritional value in many foods... but how does this lead to any harm to the person that eats it?

Heat kills the food and its lifeforce.

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Ok.. i'm not trying to flame anyone here... i'm really not... but you come out saying that your diet is the best way to go and that others would see the results if they try it.... You say that you have soooo much data but can't post it all and didn't post any.... and now the only evidence that you did post is an anecdote for how well it worked for you guys and LIFEFORCE? LIFEFORCE!!!

I really think you mean well and your diet may have some good health benefits BUT LIFEFORCE? When you say something like that i don't even have to try to counter it because it's easy to see that even though it may work for you... it has more to do with an idea than actual science... bring me scientific evidence for the existance of this lifeforce and show me how to measure it.... otherwise i just don't see how anyone can bring theirself to claim that as evidence.

No debate here " try it and find out, but within 90 days of doing it, you will become a different human being with mental and physical strength that you cannot imagine and especially if you consume large amounts of raw meats. "

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Lastly, i would like to say that this kind of quote is exactly what you see coming out of every new fad diet... not saying yours is a fad or anything negative at all...but think about it. The way i see it personally is this.... the placebo effect is a POWERFUL example of the body's own power to heal itself. I'm merely stating the fact that scientifically it is just as likely that you are experiencing the placebo effect as feeling super human strength from raw food. When one is told that something will work miracles for them physically and mentally and they try it... guess what? they tend to find a way to make it work... just the same as if people tend to have a negative outlook on something they tend to find a way to turn that negative outcome into their own reality....a self-fulfilling prophecy all the way!!!

I would argue that it's not the food you're eating but instead it's your new found confidence IN the food you're eating. I believe that since we still know very little about the brain... which is the center that releases all the chemical indicators of how we feel at any given time...the power of the human mind to overcome adversity and illness has barely been tapped into. All those fruits and veggies are obviously good for ya so part of it may even be due to them such as increased energy... but that would have been most likely the same result as if you had eaten cooked meat and veggies in the proper portions.


I hope i haven't chapped any asses for my firm views but i just believe that large claims require large amounts of evidence no matter if it comes from corporate america or those who really want the best for their body and perhaps mine also. Thank you for allowing me to partake in this extremely thought provoking conversation/debate/whatever you wanna call it