Flushing at the end of Vegetative State..?

going to have to say that organic or not.. a flush is important. it would be for any crop.

and for organics, my feeding schedule for the new organic line i bought as no flush for veg, (which i never have done) but it does have a flush before harvest. (nectar for the gods)

Jack Harer said:

As microbial action continues to break down organic matter and make more nutrients available to the plant? It's basic biology man.

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And flushing is basic cultivation man.

Buddy Ganga said:

Apples to oranges really. And since an outdoor plant gets flushed so regularly, if anything it's an argument for not against.
And you don't have the chemicals to wash away..

Understanding the cannabis plant would help one to understand the benefits of flushing.
The best part of the plant gets built up in older leaves and growth, and the only way to get them to give up the goods is to starve the plant of any outside nitrogen or food. The plant turns to itself and starts draining the leaves and older growth, that's what turns the leaves yellow right before harvest. Well I guess you would only know the leaves turn yellow right before harvest if you flushed.

I can't get the best my plants have to offer if I don't flush..

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How exactly do in-ground plants get regularly flushed?. And where did you get this inaccurate idea that plants can somehow pull out more available nutes from leaves as opposed to the medium?.

You're advising people to strip the medium, then telling us yellowing leaves are normal...I'm not buying it.

BuddyGanja,
Google the words "Leaf Senescence" and "Plant Senescence". What you are describing is a natural process that will occur with or without flushing, as at the end of the life cycle, the plant goes into a "pre-programmed" death cycle. What you describe as telling or forcing the plant to use up the nutes available in its older tissues is gonna happen whether or not a flush occurs. With organics, you cannot flush out manures, meals or any other organic matter, and the microbial action is just gonna replace what you are trying to flush.
Flushing MAY very well have a place in the scheme of things when using chemical nutrients, but there is no logical or scientific reason to even TRY and flush organics from the soil.
In nature, even after a bang up thunderstorm, the nutrient content of soil will remain unchanged because the microbial action is constantly working. Nature does not flush, if it did there would be no nutrient content in the soils after a year. If nature flushes, and nobody fertilizes, how are the nutrient levels replenished?
Let's see some empirical data here.

http://www.plant-biology.com/Leaf-Senescence.php

You also may want to read this online course compendium:

http://5e.plantphys.net/

Now if flushing is what you believe because thats how you were taught, great. Can't argue with that. I aint here to change what you believe, or what you do in your garden. But don't put your beliefs out there as scientific fact, or people might start comparing you to Jerry Falwell.

Flushing soil is a last resort only for seriously eff'd up soil.

I think the soil growers that 'flush' are confusing it with hydroponics techniques.

People need to read through regular gardening forums to gain the very basic knowledge before believing anything on mj forums. They will find that most of the info 'shared' on mj forums is a mixed jumble of soil and hydro info combined into 'The only way to do it'.

Think about it.... how many farmers 'flush' their fields? Or even a backyard gardener ... do they 'flush'?
Or the biggie: Nature. The planet has thrived for millions of years without 'flushing'.

Food for thought.....

I always thought the rain was natures way of flushing .. but thats just my thought ..

tellno1 said:

I always thought the rain was natures way of flushing .. but thats just my thought ..

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Would have to be a flood of Biblical proportions, imagine having 3 times the amount of rain proportionate to the amount of soil in Michigan.

not really .. a few inches of rain reaches the aquifers below the soil.. so i would say it does flush chemical, salts, contaniments, etc deeper in the soil out of reach of plant roots .. which really arent that deep in the soil outside

There are no synthetic or chemical nutrients in the soil in nature. A flush is to "flush out" things. Organic matter is not (readily) water soluble. You can flush organic soils 'till the cows come home and the organic matter will still be there for the micro-beasties to feed on. Now those who use the "organic" liquid bottled nutes may achieve the goal, as the suspended nutrients are obviously water soluble. However, the goal is not based on any scientific principle. A plant is going to use up the stored nutrients at the end of it's life cycle, whether or not we flush. My personal opinion on this is that it is done because that's how it has always been done, that's how one was taught to do it and it seems to work. No need to change what aint broke. It's a belief, not a fact. And that's OK. There is no harm nor foul in doing it if you believe you have to, just don't tell anyone it's based on scientific principle unless you are ready to show the studies by research.

I agree with you Jack Harer about flushing indoors is something that isnt based of scientific principals , and its just done because some have always done it. And yes there are no chemical nuitrients or synthetic in nature, as in untouched wilderness, but anywhere that is near populated areas or in the path of ot the air pollution from them , or has produced crops by farming would have synthetics and chemicals washed down below plants root system by the rains .. that was my point about natures way of flushing...

Got ya! And I'm sure it removes a lot of contaminants as well, but certainly not organic nutrients, nor will it force a plant to do anything. The guy stated that organic nutrients need to be flushed to force a plant to utilize stored up nutrients, and I am saying it's useless to do so in organic soil only. I do not use anything chemical, or any "bottled" nutes, so I can't say anything educated about that aspect, or how flushing would be of any use there..

Jack Harer said:

Got ya! And I'm sure it removes a lot of contaminants as well, but certainly not organic nutrients, nor will it force a plant to do anything. The guy stated that organic nutrients need to be flushed, and I am saying it's useless to do so in organic soil only.

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see your point ... just to let you know i am one of the ones that do flush , between grow and flower , and the last couple of weeks ... that said, I grow organically and well from what you and others have said you have me thinking a little differently ... i have 2 plants that will come off in the next few weeks , and this time i wont flush 1 of them to see if there is a difference. Like i mentioned before i did it because ive always done it but back when i started it was all chemical ferts..

In the general scheme of things, I don't believe that flushing does any harm at the last 2 weeks. There is no debate that organic buds are better tasting, in my mind, or in the minds of many others. And due to the fact's I have outlined, there are ample nutrients available to the plant in an organic grow all the way to the end, no matter if you put the entire water table thru the soil. Nothing we can do about that. So..........If there are nutrients available at the time of harvest, and the bud is gonna taste better anyway as the result of organic gardening, whats the point? Even in the presence of ample nutrition, at the end of it's life, the plant stops feeding and uses up the stored nutrients anyway as is programmed by it's genetics We do not control as much about the plant as we like to think.

Sunbiz1 said:

How exactly do in-ground plants get regularly flushed?. And where did you get this inaccurate idea that plants can somehow pull out more available nutes from leaves as opposed to the medium?.

You're advising people to strip the medium, then telling us yellowing leaves are normal...I'm not buying it.

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I like to call it rain, and where did you get all of that inaccurate information you based your questions on, because you couldn't have gotten it from the post you quoted ? After you take what I said out of context and change a few words, I wouldn't buy it either.

tellno1 said:

see your point ... just to let you know i am one of the ones that do flush , between grow and flower , and the last couple of weeks ... that said, I grow organically and well from what you and others have said you have me thinking a little differently ... i have 2 plants that will come off in the next few weeks , and this time i wont flush 1 of them to see if there is a difference. Like i mentioned before i did it because ive always done it but back when i started it was all chemical ferts..

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I haven't flushed since switching to what I consider to be an organic medium, that being my own outdoor garden soil used indoors in containers. It's been my opinion there is no reason to deprive nutes for any reason unless there are too many to begin with. Like many new growers, I caused myself big problems with fancy labeled plant supplements...started with MG soil a decade ago and had to flush or the herb tasted like dirt. Now I find myself transplanting a lot b/c I figure all that water coming out the container bottom is eventually taking vital nutrients along with it.

Not sure if that theory is correct, but the plants seem to like fresh soil regularly.

Buddy Ganga said:

I like to call it rain, and where did you get all of that inaccurate information you based your questions on, because you couldn't have gotten it from the post you quoted ? After you take what I said out of context and change a few words, I wouldn't buy it either.

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I'll re-post what you stated along with my response. You stated that yellowing leaves are caused by the plant consuming it's own resources, while I contend it could be caused by depriving the plant of vital resources.

"Understanding the cannabis plant would help one to understand the benefits of flushing.
The best part of the plant gets built up in older leaves and growth, and the only way to get them to give up the goods is to starve the plant of any outside nitrogen or food. The plant turns to itself and starts draining the leaves and older growth, that's what turns the leaves yellow right before harvest. Well I guess you would only know the leaves turn yellow right before harvest if you flushed.

I can't get the best my plants have to offer if I don't flush..
How exactly do in-ground plants get regularly flushed?. And where did you get this inaccurate idea that plants can somehow pull out more available nutes from leaves as opposed to the medium?."

And my response was:

"You're advising people to strip the medium, then telling us yellowing leaves are normal...I'm not buying it."

Sunbiz1 said:

I'll re-post what you stated along with my response. You stated that yellowing leaves are caused by the plant consuming it's own resources, while I contend it could be caused by depriving the plant of vital resources.

"Understanding the cannabis plant would help one to understand the benefits of flushing.
The best part of the plant gets built up in older leaves and growth, and the only way to get them to give up the goods is to starve the plant of any outside nitrogen or food. The plant turns to itself and starts draining the leaves and older growth, that's what turns the leaves yellow right before harvest. Well I guess you would only know the leaves turn yellow right before harvest if you flushed.

I can't get the best my plants have to offer if I don't flush..
How exactly do in-ground plants get regularly flushed?. And where did you get this inaccurate idea that plants can somehow pull out more available nutes from leaves as opposed to the medium?."

And my response was:

"You're advising people to strip the medium, then telling us yellowing leaves are normal...I'm not buying it."

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That is both correct and incorrect. You are correct that the plant will start utilizing stored nutrients, and translocating them to other parts where they will be put to use. It is incorrect that it is because of depriving the plant of any external nutrition. Even if the roots are suspended in a nutrient rich solution, the plant will go into senescence, and die off as is programmed genetically. It starts using up he stored nutrients, converting chloroplasts into sugars and translocating them to the upper areas in preparation for the end. This will be apparent with or without flushing. Now a lot of times we harvest before that senescence sets in, as the buds are ripe before the end of the plants life. But the plant will not stop using soil nutrients and start to use up the energy/nutrients stored in the leaves until such time as senescence actually occurs. In this scenario, with chemical ferts, you may very well be on to something, but again, in an organic grow not so much, I'm afraid.

Jack Harer said:

That is both correct and incorrect. You are correct that the plant will start utilizing stored nutrients, and translocating them to other parts where they will be put to use. It is incorrect that it is because of depriving the plant of any external nutrition. Even if the roots are suspended in a nutrient rich solution, the plant will go into senescence, and die off as is programmed genetically. It starts using up he stored nutrients, converting chloroplasts into sugars and translocating them to the upper areas in preparation for the end. This will be apparent with or without flushing. Now a lot of times we harvest before that senescence sets in, as the buds are ripe before the end of the plants life. But the plant will not stop using soil nutrients and start to use up the energy/nutrients stored in the leaves until such time as senescence actually occurs. In this scenario, with chemical ferts, you may very well be on to something, but again, in an organic grow not so much, I'm afraid.

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Hahahaha... I never antisipated this kinda response when I posted the Topic.. !! heh heh heh this is very interesting subject though.. Good info Jack Harer.. !!

Careful what you ask for..............You just might get a dissertation!!! LOL

SunBiz1:, You stated that yellowing leaves are caused by the plant consuming it's own resources, while I contend it could be caused by depriving the plant of vital resources.

Actually I made both of the above statements.

starve the plant of any outside nitrogen or food.
aka depriving the plant of vital resources
The plant turns to itself and starts draining the leaves and older growth, that's what turns the leaves yellow
aka yellowing leaves are caused by the plant consuming it's own resources

Proper context man, proper context!