First major consequence of Scalia's death: Public sector unions survive.

whitebb2727 said:

I've worked union and non union. Union pays better.

Thickstems, you can't say otherwise. If you did have a non union job that had better pay, it is the exception to the rule. Not the rule.

Fucking right to work state, more like right to fire state. No job protection.

The state I live in is a perfect example. Right to work and damn temp services moved in. All companies that use them are non union and work you until its about time to get hired full time then replace you. They also fire employees that have seniority and higher pay to save money.

That shit doesn't happen at an union job.

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People will only tolerate being treated as disposable goods for so long.

ttystikk said:

People will only tolerate being treated as disposable goods for so long.

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I can't stand a temp service. Temp services need to be outlawed. A good childhood friend's mom worked for a temp service.

Let's say a factory pays its full time employees around $12-15 an hour. Typically, that factory will pay within a dollar or two per hour to the temp service per employee.

The temp service then pays $8-10 an hour to its employees. Its right around 40% that goes to the temp service.

Fuck that. I really mean fuck that. How does that seem right?

whitebb2727 said:

I've worked union and non union. Union pays better.

Thickstems, you can't say otherwise. If you did have a non union job that had better pay, it is the exception to the rule. Not the rule.

Fucking right to work state, more like right to fire state. No job protection.

The state I live in is a perfect example. Right to work and damn temp services moved in. All companies that use them are non union and work you until its about time to get hired full time then replace you. They also fire employees that have seniority and higher pay to save money.

That shit doesn't happen at an union job.

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Exactly, weak minded low wage non union worker management sucks like @ThickStemz somehow think that non-union is a better way though I think he'd have a hard time explaining it from the perspective of the worker. Unions are about negotiating the best deal for its workers. The best deal doesn't always have to be about pay, areas neglected by the lone operator can be included in a union contract, such as job protections, especially when a manager wants to cut a person without good cause. Union contracts or at least good ones spell out very clearly how, when and for what reason a worker can be fired for. When the union shop is busted and scabs move in, everybody gets a worse deal.

Right to work, contract workers, temps and offshoring have all become endemic because worker's collective bargaining rights have been eroded to the point where management has all the advantage.

ThickStemz said:

Workers can. This isn't about the union. Its about mandating union membership.

If membership declined and the next contract wasn't as good then the employees could decide if the dues were worth it.

Since unions are tax free the same rules should apply to them as churches with respect to enforcing political parties and candidates. That's where the issue really was.

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Sorry man, that was pretty dense. Starting off with the first sentence, "Workers can." Workers can what?

Read the goddam description of the court case. It was entirely about sharing cost of representation in a public employee's unionized workplace with non union workers. The court case had nothing to do with tax status and churches. That's your wart, and has nothing to do with the recent SCOTUS ruling.

whitebb2727 said:

I can't stand a temp service. Temp services need to be outlawed. A good childhood friend's mom worked for a temp service.

Let's say a factory pays its full time employees around $12-15 an hour. Typically, that factory will pay within a dollar or two per hour to the temp service per employee.

The temp service then pays $8-10 an hour to its employees. Its right around 40% that goes to the temp service.

Fuck that. I really mean fuck that. How does that seem right?

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that's the fee for having steady work without interviewing..you are not forced to do it..you could always attempt to find a job on your own.

schuylaar said:

that's the fee for having steady work without interviewing..you are not forced to do it..you could always attempt to find a job on your own.

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Yes I could and have. You don't live here. Most are stuck doing it. Its got to the point that even a lot of skilled trade jobs are through temp services.

Its not right and you know it. Those jobs would be there without the temp service. The only reason they exist is to take advantage of people.

If you are so for it why don't you use one and get a job and off food stamps?

Fogdog said:

Sorry man, that was pretty dense. Starting off with the first sentence, "Workers can." Workers can what?

Read the goddam description of the court case. It was entirely about sharing cost of representation in a public employee's unionized workplace with non union workers. The court case had nothing to do with tax status and churches. That's your wart, and has nothing to do with the recent SCOTUS ruling.

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It was obviously in reply to you saying workers can't hire representation. They can. By choosing to join the union.

I really don't quite understand why people bitch about paying union dues when it pays for your medical, negotiate contracts and best of all (not many know this) but it is also tax deductible, washing of uniforms, special boots, tools plus you live a better life.

You don't have to worry like, in right to fuck you states, to get fired with no explanations required. My neighbor had a good job and always bragged that he didn't have to pay union dues until he got fired last month with no real explanation just that they had to cut back ... I live now in a right to fuck you state, thank God I'm retired with great bennies and a pension. All my neighbor got was 1 month severance pay.

Local #638b (Steamfitters & Metal Trades)

B4L

schuylaar said:

that's the fee for having steady work without interviewing..you are not forced to do it..you could always attempt to find a job on your own.

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lots of places only hire from the temp pool

whitebb2727 said:

I've worked union and non union. Union pays better.

Thickstems, you can't say otherwise. If you did have a non union job that had better pay, it is the exception to the rule. Not the rule.

Fucking right to work state, more like right to fire state. No job protection.

The state I live in is a perfect example. Right to work and damn temp services moved in. All companies that use them are non union and work you until its about time to get hired full time then replace you. They also fire employees that have seniority and higher pay to save money.

That shit doesn't happen at an union job.

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I would agree with you that right to work is a name that does not mean much.

I would say that you and I seem to have a philosophical difference. Here is the core of the disagreement.

You seem to think a jobs purpose is to provide a person with a means to live by earning money.

That isnt the case as I see it.

A job is a good, a lot like raw material. Restaraunts have to buy food and equipment and supplies. They also have to buy labor. As cold and detached as this seems. Its the way it works.

A temp agency allows a company to greatly reduce its HR department. It then spends about the same money on the labor it needs as it used to when it did its own hiring.

But so many people are such terrible employees that they're really necessary. A temp agency will always have a large pool of workers ready to fill open positions. They provide a valuable service to the company. The worker is a commodity.

ThickStemz said:

The worker is a commodity.

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maybe for telemarketers like you.

UncleBuck said:

maybe for telemarketers like you.

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I don't work for a wage. Been in my current position for 3 years. Its 100% commission. I'm paid a min wage draw that I have to repay. So in essence I pay minimum wage to my employer to have a spot on the line.

We have about an 80% turnover rate at 6 months.

ThickStemz said:

I would agree with you that right to work is a name that does not mean much.

I would say that you and I seem to have a philosophical difference. Here is the core of the disagreement.

You seem to think a jobs purpose is to provide a person with a means to live by earning money.

That isnt the case as I see it.

A job is a good, a lot like raw material. Restaraunts have to buy food and equipment and supplies. They also have to buy labor. As cold and detached as this seems. Its the way it works.

A temp agency allows a company to greatly reduce its HR department. It then spends about the same money on the labor it needs as it used to when it did its own hiring.

But so many people are such terrible employees that they're really necessary. A temp agency will always have a large pool of workers ready to fill open positions. They provide a valuable service to the company. The worker is a commodity.

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Really? You're going to equate jobs to raw material? Jobs are a life sustenance to many folks without one it spells doom and gloom.

Temp agencies are like puppy mills of employment.

B4L

Blunted 4 lyfe said:

Really? You're going to equate jobs to raw material? Jobs are a life sustenance to many folks without one it spells doom and gloom.

Temp agencies are like puppy mills of employment.

B4L

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That's all true if one has a certain perspective and makes those assumptions.

Low skill jobs are like raw materials. You can train nearly anyone to do the job in a short time and there is a ready supply of applicants.

If youre a business and you have positions that fit this description why would you view it any other way?

ThickStemz said:

That's all true if one has a certain perspective and makes those assumptions.

Low skill jobs are like raw materials. You can train nearly anyone to do the job in a short time and there is a ready supply of applicants.

If youre a business and you have positions that fit this description why would you view it any other way?

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Maybe the business may look at jobs in their firms as a commodity but the person who has that job thinks of it as a blessing.

B4L

ThickStemz said:

I would agree with you that right to work is a name that does not mean much.

I would say that you and I seem to have a philosophical difference. Here is the core of the disagreement.

You seem to think a jobs purpose is to provide a person with a means to live by earning money.

That isnt the case as I see it.

A job is a good, a lot like raw material. Restaraunts have to buy food and equipment and supplies. They also have to buy labor. As cold and detached as this seems. Its the way it works.

A temp agency allows a company to greatly reduce its HR department. It then spends about the same money on the labor it needs as it used to when it did its own hiring.

But so many people are such terrible employees that they're really necessary. A temp agency will always have a large pool of workers ready to fill open positions. They provide a valuable service to the company. The worker is a commodity.

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Your made up idea of jobs as a commodity is just that - yours. Yours job is shit, which explains the 80% turnover. You've said before that you live in a low wage location and this job pays better. You never said you liked it. Sounds like a dismal existence to me.

Other people have different perspectives on their job. In fact your perspective is strange, unusual and really doesn't fit into society as a whole.

Unions are one way for workers to protect their rights and economic position in the face of crappy management and shifting economic conditions. Smart companies can work with unions or not, depending on the situation. One thing in common with a growing healthy company (e.g. not yours) is an environment where people have a say and a stake in the success of the company. A spatula can never exceed its purpose but people can in the right environment.

ThickStemz said:

I would agree with you that right to work is a name that does not mean much.

I would say that you and I seem to have a philosophical difference. Here is the core of the disagreement.

You seem to think a jobs purpose is to provide a person with a means to live by earning money.

That isnt the case as I see it.

A job is a good, a lot like raw material. Restaraunts have to buy food and equipment and supplies. They also have to buy labor. As cold and detached as this seems. Its the way it works.

A temp agency allows a company to greatly reduce its HR department. It then spends about the same money on the labor it needs as it used to when it did its own hiring.

But so many people are such terrible employees that they're really necessary. A temp agency will always have a large pool of workers ready to fill open positions. They provide a valuable service to the company. The worker is a commodity.

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If that were simply the case I wouldn't have a problem. If a person went through a temp service for 90 days or so and wasn't late or didn't miss, then hire them.

That is not the case. Companies use it to get rid of senior higher pages employees to save money. Even if a company has a policy like that, the temp service just tells you to go to a different work site. They do it on purpose. The company doesn't have to pay benefits or higher wages.

I look at it this way, I spend ten years busting my ass making you money and helping your business grow, I deserve more than a boot out the door so you can save some money.

That's my life, time, and heart I put into it.


Temp services are shady. I understand that they can be a tool to be used but most are just to cut expense.

A business should be more than the bottom dollar.

Trade jobs are moving to temp services.

Fogdog said:

Your made up idea of jobs as a commodity is just that - yours. Yours job is shit, which explains the 80% turnover. You've said before that you live in a low wage location and this job pays better. You never said you liked it. Sounds like a dismal existence to me.

Other people have different perspectives on their job. In fact your perspective is strange, unusual and really doesn't fit into society as a whole.

Unions are one way for workers to protect their rights and economic position in the face of crappy management and shifting economic conditions. Smart companies can work with unions or not, depending on the situation. One thing in common with a growing healthy company (e.g. not yours) is an environment where people have a say and a stake in the success of the company. A spatula can never exceed its purpose but people can in the right environment.

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I love what I do. I came think of anything else I'd rather do. Its the first time I ever did anything where I understood what people meant when they said they loved their job.

The turn over isnt from being fired. Most people can't give timeshare away. They quit on their own. In fact I don't think more than two people have been fired in the 3 years I've been there.

whitebb2727 said:

Trade jobs are moving to temp services.

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I don't know of any trade that's moving to temp agencies provide proof of this claim, every trade I know was learned at a trade school (paid or unpaid) why would any tradesman want to go to a temp agency for a temporary position? It takes anywhere from 5-10 yrs to get from helper to journeyman and that is the goal of any helper.

B4L