DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes

Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Humus tends to refer to the detritus that litters the forest floor. The Ancient Forest mixture has live earthworms in it, so we are sure to have some earth worm castings as well. If you feel the hygrozyme is still necessary at this point then keep using it. You know your situation better than I. Curious that you have such problems in an ebb and flow. What is your flood/drain schedule?
 
Goldowitz

Goldowitz

Well-Known Member
My SOG plants grow in 4" x 7" tall square pots with hydroton. I use RO water, AN Sensi, AN big bud, Epsom (because AK47 likes a lot of mag.) and HZ
I flood the tables in my budding room five times per day, which I am starting to think might be excessive and I plan to cut that number down to four or even three times per day. The tables in my mother / veg room only get flooded three times per day. I feel this number is good for my mother plants but will probably cut my veg table down to two times per day. My pumps run for 15 minutes each but fill up the tables after five minutes. I know this could be a problem and will drop the run time down. I never flood when the lights are out.

At the time I first saw problems, I didn't have any BB, HZ, H202 or air in my reservoir and I know that is where I messed up. To tell you the truth, IDK if I am fighting pythium, brown slime or diatoms, but I am leaning toward pythium and diatoms.

With the HZ, all of my plants actually look good, just all of the roots are still brown. My mother plants are green and look very healthy, but I know that they are not. All growth increased to a certain level but it is still slower than normal. It takes two and a half months for my mother plants to become full size and I have to veg my SOG plants two weeks to give them a head start but then they go on to grow nice buds and average out to 9 grams per plant (@ four plants per sq. foot). People that SOG without root problems don't veg and report 15 grams per plant, so I am down a lot but still get plenty of goods. Like I said, I have been growing this way for the past two years and just want to get rid of the brown stuff.

With my plants in small pots I won't be able to get at the roots to clean them and with 90 some odd plants I don't know if I will be able to flush them all. My infection is bad but plants are still growing. It has been about four years fighting this crap and I am on my sixth generation clones. All my clones have great roots and no problems at all, until I transplant them onto my tables. At the very least I wonder if the tea will keep all new clones from getting root problems and then it would just be a matter of time phasing out all old plants.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Goldowitz said:
My SOG plants grow in 4" x 7" tall square pots with hydroton. I use RO water, AN Sensi, AN big bud, Epsom (because AK47 likes a lot of mag.) and HZ
I flood the tables in my budding room five times per day, which I am starting to think might be excessive and I plan to cut that number down to four or even three times per day. The tables in my mother / veg room only get flooded three times per day. I feel this number is good for my mother plants but will probably cut my veg table down to two times per day. My pumps run for 15 minutes each but fill up the tables after five minutes. I know this could be a problem and will drop the run time down. I never flood when the lights are out.

At the time I first saw problems, I didn't have any BB, HZ, H202 or air in my reservoir and I know that is where I messed up. To tell you the truth, IDK if I am fighting pythium, brown slime or diatoms, but I am leaning toward pythium and diatoms.

With the HZ, all of my plants actually look good, just all of the roots are still brown. My mother plants are green and look very healthy, but I know that they are not. All growth increased to a certain level but it is still slower than normal. It takes two and a half months for my mother plants to become full size and I have to veg my SOG plants two weeks to give them a head start but then they go on to grow nice buds and average out to 9 grams per plant (@ four plants per sq. foot). People that SOG without root problems don't veg and report 15 grams per plant, so I am down a lot but still get plenty of goods. Like I said, I have been growing this way for the past two years and just want to get rid of the brown stuff.
Click to expand...
In ebb and flow I flooded for 15 min every 2 hours lights on and had no problems with brown slime on the roots, even though it was in the res. So it seems your problem is not brown slime. Pythium, as abundant as it is, still isn't that hard to gain control of, it is almost always a secondary result of a primary condition. So you have a puzzling case indeed. I still think you will see improvement from the tea.
 
lapperll

lapperll

Member
Goldowitz said:
My SOG plants grow in 4" x 7" tall square pots with hydroton. I use RO water, AN Sensi, AN big bud, Epsom (because AK47 likes a lot of mag.) and HZ
I flood the tables in my budding room five times per day, which I am starting to think might be excessive and I plan to cut that number down to four or even three times per day. The tables in my mother / veg room only get flooded three times per day. I feel this number is good for my mother plants but will probably cut my veg table down to two times per day. My pumps run for 15 minutes each but fill up the tables after five minutes. I know this could be a problem and will drop the run time down. I never flood when the lights are out.

At the time I first saw problems, I didn't have any BB, HZ, H202 or air in my reservoir and I know that is where I messed up. To tell you the truth, IDK if I am fighting pythium, brown slime or diatoms, but I am leaning toward pythium and diatoms.

With the HZ, all of my plants actually look good, just all of the roots are still brown. My mother plants are green and look very healthy, but I know that they are not. All growth increased to a certain level but it is still slower than normal. It takes two and a half months for my mother plants to become full size and I have to veg my SOG plants two weeks to give them a head start but then they go on to grow nice buds and average out to 9 grams per plant (@ four plants per sq. foot). People that SOG without root problems don't veg and report 15 grams per plant, so I am down a lot but still get plenty of goods. Like I said, I have been growing this way for the past two years and just want to get rid of the brown stuff.

With my plants in small pots I won't be able to get at the roots to clean them and with 90 some odd plants I don't know if I will be able to flush them all. My infection is bad but plants are still growing. It has been about four years fighting this crap and I am on my sixth generation clones. All my clones have great roots and no problems at all, until I transplant them onto my tables. At the very least I wonder if the tea will keep all new clones from getting root problems and then it would just be a matter of time phasing out all old plants.
Click to expand...
I would loose the HZ (I'm assuming Hygrozyme) and the H2O2 and just run Great White in a Flood and Drain Table.
Just my 2 cents. Good Luck.
 
Goldowitz

Goldowitz

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
In ebb and flow I flooded for 15 min every 2 hours lights on and had no problems with brown slime on the roots, even though it was in the res. So it seems your problem is not brown slime. Pythium, as abundant as it is, still isn't that hard to gain control of, it is almost always a secondary result of a primary condition. So you have a puzzling case indeed. I still think you will see improvement from the tea.
Click to expand...
Yes, it has been very perplexing for me. I even spoke with ABF a couple of years ago about this problem and he could not think of anything. I am very open to the possibility that I am doing something wrong, but can't figure out what that could be. The water in my res gets changed out every other week and I drain all the water and clean all the equipment once a month.

Reading your earlier posts you said 1 watt per gallon to get enough air in the res when using BB. Is this only for DWC or also ebb and flow? I have a EcoPlus commercial 1 that is 18 watts and 38 liter/min. I have a 40g, 20g, and a 10g res. My air pump runs 12 hours during the time the lights are on and the tables are being flooded. When I start using the tea I am assuming I will have to run the pump 24/7?

Also do you think it would be worthwhile to add tea to the water I give to my cuttings? Maybe the BB could colonize the root mass and keep it protected for when it gets transplanted? I keep them in small RW cubes and use a heat mat to keep the RW at 84 degrees fahrenheit. Would cold water have a negative impact on the roots coming out of the bottom of the cube, or the cutting in any way?

Thank you for all of your help. It has been a pleasure reading this thread.:clap:
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Goldowitz said:
Yes, it has been very perplexing for me. I even spoke with ABF a couple of years ago about this problem and he could not think of anything. I am very open to the possibility that I am doing something wrong, but can't figure out what that could be. The water in my res gets changed out every other week and I drain all the water and clean all the equipment once a month.

Reading your earlier posts you said 1 watt per gallon to get enough air in the res when using BB. Is this only for DWC or also ebb and flow? I have a EcoPlus commercial 1 that is 18 watts and 38 liter/min. I have a 40g, 20g, and a 10g res. My air pump runs 12 hours during the time the lights are on and the tables are being flooded. When I start using the tea I am assuming I will have to run the pump 24/7?

Also do you think it would be worthwhile to add tea to the water I give to my cuttings? Maybe the BB could colonize the root mass and keep it protected for when it gets transplanted? I keep them in small RW cubes and use a heat mat to keep the RW at 84 degrees fahrenheit. Would cold water have a negative impact on the roots coming out of the bottom of the cube, or the cutting in any way?

Thank you for all of your help. It has been a pleasure reading this thread.:clap:
Click to expand...
1wt per gallon is a minimum. Pumps should always be running 24/7. Keeping your water oxygenated is a constant battle, and will become harder once you have microbes in there. Proper res conditions should be your first line of defense against disease, and that means never letting the water go anaerobic.

Remember proper res conditions are:

1wt per gallon air pump
multiple air stones
water temps 68-75
Zero light leaks
Zero organic material

Adding the tea to your cuttings will help greatly. It takes a long time for the mycorrhizal fungi to form their network, and the more advanced it is the harder it will be to penetrate, and the longer it will persist once you start using nutes with higher P. So the sooner you start the better. Don't pour the water on cold if your roots are used to room temp. Warm it up by adding some room temp water, a 50/50 dilution is fine for cuttings.
 
Goldowitz

Goldowitz

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg,
You have given me two pieces of information that I think may end up being key. First, as you had pointed out, I need four times as much air as what I have now. As soon as I can get down to the store I will buy a Ecoplus commercial 5 to replace my commercial 1. Since I started running my pump 24/7 I have already seen positive results. The water in two of my reservoirs went from a cloudy, brown color to.......................clear.:clap: The other one is much better than before.

Also my newest plants seem to be drinking more water than usual, which could be a very good sign that the roots are improving but it is still way to early to make that conclusion. What I think I will end up doing is monitoring everything over the next few months to record data and build a good base line before I start brewing tea. I have all of the ingredients and will most definitely start to use it in the near future. When I do and I add it to my cuttings, I think the best way will be to use an eye dropper to add tea after each watering. How many drops do you think per cutting in small RW cube?
Thanks again for all your help.
G
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I left a tray of clones unattended for a couple weeks. The cuttings all had nice white roots that appeared to be growing vigorously. After a few weeks I checked the cuttings and 3 were dead. I examined the roots and sure enough they were brown and covered in snot. The roots had turned yellow all the way up to the base of the stem. I wrote these off as gonners but still transferred them to a fresh res and inoculated with mycogrow powder. Two days later there was no change. In the meantime I brewed up a batch of tea so I added a cup to the sick plants. The next day the dead roots had tiny white nubs sprouting out of the muck. Now, a week later, one more of the cuttings has died, while the others have made a recovery.

To me this says a few things. Without regular inoculations young plants will succumb to the slime; the less root material you have, the more often you need to inoculate. Just adding the powder by itself to the res seemed to do nothing; it needs to be brewed first. Once the tea was added, the change was almost immediate.

Another interesting fact I have discovered recently. Typical levels of chlorine in tap water will not cause problems with mycorrhizal fungi once they are established. It will probably kill off most of the bacteria, but if no disease is present and there is a large robust root system in place, this isn't a problem either. This means, once your plants are a few weeks into flower and are stress free, you no longer need to worry about aging tap water before using it.

From urbangarden magazine
Q. What conditions should be avoided?
Very high temperatures. (135- 140°F will definitely start killing them off but then, at those temperatures, the happiness of your fungi is the least of your problems!) The less chlorine your water contains, the better for both fungi and plants too. However, typical levels of chlorine from municipal supplies should not cause a problem.
Click to expand...
Some other interesting answers:
Q. When should I start using mycorrhizal fungi?
As soon as possible! It takes less mycorrhizae to colonize a juvenile plant than a larger one. Commercial growers have negated the cost of mycorrhizal fungi with their increased seed germination rates. It takes a couple of weeks to form on the roots after the first inoculation so get the process started right at the seedling / cutting stage. The trick is to introduce the mycorrhizal fungi spores as early as possible to give them time to establish themselves. This is particularly important if you are growing short-cycle plants.
Q. Do mycorrhizal fungi need to be reintroduced on a regular basis? Do I need to add it more frequently than once with every nutrient change?
Best performance is achieved with numerous applications throughout the growth cycle. You can’t really overdo mycorrhizae. If there are more roots producing more exudates it will probably help to add more mycorrhizae. But don’t bother any later than 2-3 weeks before harvest. It’s a waste of time. Your mycelial network should already be established. It won’t do any harm to keep using it (and often the instructions on the mycorrhizae product will encourage you to!), but you’re just wasting your money! Adding it with every nutrient change won’t do any harm either. It’s just a question of minimizing waste. A good tip is to mix the fungi in a one gallon jug to get it nicely diluted, then pour it into your nutrient solution. Otherwise the powder can sit at the bottom of the res. The white powder you sometimes see at the bottom of your res is just the carrying agent of the spores, not the spores themselves.
Q. Do mycorrhizal fungi actually guard the roots against other nasties? If so, which nasties exactly?
Yes. Nasties include: rhizoctonia, fusarium, pythium and phytophthora. They can also mitigate the detrimental effects of high salt conditions.
Q. How exactly do mycorrhizal fungi guard the roots? Do they simply ìcrowd outî the root zone or is it more complex?
Endo mycorrhizal fungi thicken the cell walls around the root cortex making it harder for pathogens to penetrate. They also compete with pathogens for some of the same food sources. Mycorrhizal fungi help with antibiotic production, armoring of roots with chitin, and control of excess nutrients.
Q. What hydroponic growth media do mycorrhizae prefer?
Mycorrhizal fungi can create mycelial networks in soil, coco coir, rockwool and many other inert growth media. They can even survive in a totally aqueous environment, as long as it is properly aerated, but they will not replicate. Mycorrhizae will grow and increase in biomass only once they are attached to a plant root.
Click to expand...
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I left a tray of clones unattended for a couple weeks. The cuttings all had nice white roots that appeared to be growing vigorously. After a few weeks I checked the cuttings and 3 were dead. I examined the roots and sure enough they were brown and covered in snot. The roots had turned yellow all the way up to the base of the stem. I wrote these off as gonners but still transferred them to a fresh res and inoculated with mycogrow powder. Two days later there was no change. In the meantime I brewed up a batch of tea so I added a cup to the sick plants. The next day the dead roots had tiny white nubs sprouting out of the muck. Now, a week later, one more of the cuttings has died, while the others have made a recovery.

To me this says a few things. Without regular inoculations young plants will succumb to the slime; the less root material you have, the more often you need to inoculate. Just adding the powder by itself to the res seemed to do nothing; it needs to be brewed first. Once the tea was added, the change was almost immediate.

Another interesting fact I have discovered recently. Typical levels of chlorine in tap water will not cause problems with mycorrhizal fungi once they are established. It will probably kill off most of the bacteria, but if no disease is present and there is a large robust root system in place, this isn't a problem either. This means, once your plants are a few weeks into flower and are stress free, you no longer need to worry about aging tap water before using it.

From urbangarden magazine
Q. What conditions should be avoided?
Very high temperatures. (135- 140°F will definitely start killing them off but then, at those temperatures, the happiness of your fungi is the least of your problems!) The less chlorine your water contains, the better for both fungi and plants too. However, typical levels of chlorine from municipal supplies should not cause a problem.
Click to expand...
Some other interesting answers:
Q. When should I start using mycorrhizal fungi?
As soon as possible! It takes less mycorrhizae to colonize a juvenile plant than a larger one. Commercial growers have negated the cost of mycorrhizal fungi with their increased seed germination rates. It takes a couple of weeks to form on the roots after the first inoculation so get the process started right at the seedling / cutting stage. The trick is to introduce the mycorrhizal fungi spores as early as possible to give them time to establish themselves. This is particularly important if you are growing short-cycle plants.

Q. Do mycorrhizal fungi need to be reintroduced on a regular basis? Do I need to add it more frequently than once with every nutrient change?

Best performance is achieved with numerous applications throughout the growth cycle. You can’t really overdo mycorrhizae. If there are more roots producing more exudates it will probably help to add more mycorrhizae. But don’t bother any later than 2-3 weeks before harvest. It’s a waste of time. Your mycelial network should already be established. It won’t do any harm to keep using it (and often the instructions on the mycorrhizae product will encourage you to!), but you’re just wasting your money! Adding it with every nutrient change won’t do any harm either. It’s just a question of minimizing waste. A good tip is to mix the fungi in a one gallon jug to get it nicely diluted, then pour it into your nutrient solution. Otherwise the powder can sit at the bottom of the res. The white powder you sometimes see at the bottom of your res is just the carrying agent of the spores, not the spores themselves.

Q. Do mycorrhizal fungi actually guard the roots against other nasties? If so, which nasties exactly?

Yes. Nasties include: rhizoctonia, fusarium, pythium and phytophthora. They can also mitigate the detrimental effects of high salt conditions.

Q. How exactly do mycorrhizal fungi guard the roots? Do they simply ìcrowd outî the root zone or is it more complex?

Endo mycorrhizal fungi thicken the cell walls around the root cortex making it harder for pathogens to penetrate. They also compete with pathogens for some of the same food sources. Mycorrhizal fungi help with antibiotic production, armoring of roots with chitin, and control of excess nutrients.

Q. What hydroponic growth media do mycorrhizae prefer?

Mycorrhizal fungi can create mycelial networks in soil, coco coir, rockwool and many other inert growth media. They can even survive in a totally aqueous environment, as long as it is properly aerated, but they will not replicate. Mycorrhizae will grow and increase in biomass only once they are attached to a plant root.
Click to expand...
 
Flo Grow

Flo Grow

Well-Known Member
Nice work Heisenberg !
+REP
The tea was so effective due to the aerobic bacteria you bred by brewing it.
With constant rez "innoculations" of aerobic bacteria to combat the anaerobic, you'll win eventually.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Flo Grow said:
Nice work Heisenberg !
+REP
The tea was so effective due to the aerobic bacteria you bred by brewing it.
With constant rez "innoculations" of aerobic bacteria to combat the anaerobic, you'll win eventually.
Click to expand...
Yep, the bacteria are a big part of fighting disease. Myco's are more about protection and prevention, with the exception of trichoderma. Just adding the powder to the res does not activate many of the bacteria. Myco's get food from the roots while the bacteria search for external carbons. Also, the brew time serves to soften up the myco spores and make them eager to germinate once they find roots.
 
Goldowitz

Goldowitz

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg
I did a res change today and took a picture of the brown crap that has been growing on my equipment. I am sure that between the increased air and the tea that it won't be a problem, but was curious as to what you think it was that I have been battling with over the years? This is what my res looks like after a month.

brown crap.jpg
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Hrmm that could be many things. Honestly my res doesn't look too unlike that after a while, but that's because I don't filter my tea anymore. Some of it is undoubtedly root exudes, and it looks like there is a nasty biofilm as well. Brown slime itself doesn't leave residue like that, and I am unsure exactly what diatoms look like. The important thing to watch is your roots. You should see new shoots a couple days after applying the tea.
 
BendBrewer

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Hi My name is BendBrewer and I had a problem.....But now I am a Tea-aholic thanks to this thread.

Came across this thread last week while looking for cures to my root slime problem. After an hour or so of reading through it I went to work. Drained and cleaned the system, brought the plants inside for a good root rinse in the sink and ran them in the system with SubcultureM for a couple of days while I brewed up some of this Tea. Noticed a big difference 2 days later when switching the system back to nutes and adding the tea. Now 3 days running the tea and it is amazing. Very healthy exploding roots and the plants are loving it.

I was running Floralicious Plus and read in this thread that there is no need to feed them in the res. and to keep organics out. I have cut the Plus from my solution based on this information. Is that suggested? They don't seem to be missing it.

Thanks again for this awesomely detailed thread. Great stuff for sure!!!
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear about your success! The tea still amazes me from time to time with it's ability to stimulate roots even if they are already healthy.

Once you have been slime free for a while and you develop a large healthy root system, you can try using Floralicious Plus again if you wish. You are always flirting with disaster if you add organics to a slime prone system, but a res well inoculated with beneficials will be much more forgiving, and is likely to tolerate a bud sweetener. In the meantime you can use it to feed the bennies in the tea, they will love it and you will also still get a slight benefit from the product itself this way. You could also still use FP as a foilar spray.

Dutch Masters Add27 can be used with any nute system, is an excellent additive, and will not promote slime.
 
BendBrewer

BendBrewer

Well-Known Member
Thanks, I figured that the tea might like the Plus based on what is in it. I am brewing up a bunch of this tea at the moment after seeing the Hydro shop wants 6 bucks a gallon for it. Would you use it on garden plants in raised beds or on the lawn? I don't see how it would be bad but I am pretty new to all this.

Thanks again. This stuff is great.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I am sure there are a few exceptions, but pretty much anything that has roots will benefit from the tea. It's even fine to use on produce and consumables. I have heard of people applying myco's to their lawn via a hose attachment and the results were great except, you might have to mow twice as often. I plan to use it on my parents tomato plants this year. Gonna inoculate half of them and use liquid light as well, and compare the results with the untreated ones.

Does your hydro shop brew up the tea themselves?
 
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