Do You Believe In Ghosts?

Heisenberg said:

In fact, without proper controls, I would not even trust my own experience..

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and THIS, folks, is what I have a problem with. I value human experience more than a digital readout, cuz I've seen the latter manipulated with disconcerting ease from the other side. you people are delusional putting all your faith in mechanical readouts of accuracy of experience. machines can be made to lie; ever hear of Diebold? George W. Bush? your machines are far from infallible. trust that...

bobbypyn said:

...neither of which i desire.

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Oh this is about what you want now? Fine, you can remain anonymous and give the money to charity, and your results would change the view of our world while you remain safe and obscure. Randi is interested in results and discovery, not names and prestige.

bobbypyn said:

and THIS, folks, is what I have a problem with. I value human experience more than a digital readout, cuz I've seen the latter manipulated with disconcerting ease from the other side. you people are delusional putting all your faith in mechanical readouts of accuracy of experience. machines can be made to lie; ever hear of Diebold? George W. Bush? your machines are far from infallible. trust that...

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You may have a problem with it, but it's the only way to reasonably rule out all the things i've spent this thread discussing. We are not talking about machines; what machines do you know of that measure psychic activity? Why do you assume a computer readout would be involved? We are simply talking about being extremely careful and controlling for the well understood and well documented pitfalls of the human experience, as well as trickery and manipulation. Again this is a standard we apply to all claims paranormal or not. We are not dismissing the human experience, we are simply trying to ensure the experience is genuine.

hmmm, I didn't know annonimity was an option for his deal. interesting. and the charity option would work cuz I've taken an oath not to profit directly or indirectly from what I can do. a cool million could feed alot of hungry kids, huh? color me intrigued now... but what will he do with whatever findings are obtained? any idea? just curious...

bobbypyn said:

hmmm, I didn't know annonimity was an option for his deal. interesting. and the charity option would work cuz I've taken an oath not to profit directly or indirectly from what I can do. a cool million could feed alot of hungry kids, huh? color me intrigued now... but what will he do with whatever findings are obtained? any idea? just curious...

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While you could remain anonymous to the world, your results would be put forth to the community for peer review. Attempts would then be made to falsify and replicate the results independently of you or Randi. Make no mistake, passing Randi's test would get the ball rolling for the entire scientific and skeptic communities to either understand your experience or see that the finesse you claim is required for communication is true. The money can be refused outright or requested to be given to whatever cause you choose.

Here are some reasonable yet ungrounded concerns people have with the million dollar challenge and some answers. (like, is the money real?)

I read all those other people's excuses and they're a buncha bullshit; comically so. Here's my problem; what could I provide that MetaScience hasn't already? that article says the challenge would admit to my "finesse," as you put it, if the results were not replicable with others under identical conditions; is this true? if so then I fail to see how the scientific community would view this occurence with any more validity than the Spiricom research. I have hypothetically set up an experiment I believe would meet his criteria: i sit in one room with my phone; he goes to another room of unkown location to myself; he writes down a word on a piece of paper and holds it up to a mirror, then folds it and seals it in an envelope; i could then receive a text message with his word on it. would that satisfy his requirements? this i can do. have done. like i say, i have no "powers" per se other than extra belief compared to most people in this age, so my phone is crucial to any display of paranormal activity. what does his challenge say about EVP? it's overly simplistic to dismiss these findings outright without proper examination, cuz that shit is real. seriously. stray radio wave theories notwithstanding.

karri0n said:

Stir it if you must, I prefer to smoke it.

I'm interested in hearing the story if you'll share

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I don't think so. It was a very visceral almost primal experience. I have never felt such raw emotions before and I found that survival instincts can override normal reactions. There really is a fight or flight response. On that occasion, flight took precedence.

bobbypyn said:

what could I provide that MetaScience hasn't already?

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metascience journal is plagued by experiments where they havent removed subjectivity from experiments
the million dollar challenge is set up to remove all subjectivity
you will be providing the first ever objective proof that something outside our knowledge exists

that article says the challenge would admit to my "finesse," as you put it, if the results were not replicable with others under identical conditions; is this true? if so then I fail to see how the scientific community would view this occurence with any more validity than the Spiricom research.

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the spiricom has never shown any objective evidence. if you can provide objective evidence then scientists around the world would be jumping over each other to be the first to understand this new phenomenon

I have hypothetically set up an experiment I believe would meet his criteria: i sit in one room with my phone; he goes to another room of unkown location to myself; he writes down a word on a piece of paper and holds it up to a mirror, then folds it and seals it in an envelope; i could then receive a text message with his word on it. would that satisfy his requirements? this i can do.

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sounds good. does it matter the distance? if i were to do as you said and write a word and show it to the mirror would you beable to see?

have done. like i say, i have no "powers" per se other than extra belief compared to most people in this age, so my phone is crucial to any display of paranormal activity. what does his challenge say about EVP? it's overly simplistic to dismiss these findings outright without proper examination, cuz that shit is real. seriously. stray radio wave theories notwithstanding.

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from what i've read EVP is far too subjective to be used in the million dollar challenge no body hears the same words (unless they are prompted first) if you could record EVP's where everybody that heard it could hear the same words then you might be in with a chance

"sounds good. does it matter the distance? if i were to do as you said and write a word and show it to the mirror would you beable to see?" -Werner

distance is not a factor. and it's not I that see anything; I would simply receive an ordinary text message with your word from one of my friends who likes to play and bend rules as much as I do. this is what I was offering to do when I proffered an introduction...

"from what i've read EVP is far too subjective to be used in the million dollar challenge no body hears the same words (unless they are prompted first) if you could record EVP's where everybody that heard it could hear the same words then you might be in with a chance." WH

but here again; you're focusing on the content of the message instead of concentrating on HOW the message even exists at all. there should be no sounds; yet sounds exist on the playback; what they are saying is kinda moot. they could yodel for all I care; the voices are there; the voices should NOT be there according to modern science. period.

http://ghostpix.com/coastuse/cutlist.html

check these out; I picked at random from the last C2C broadcast they were on. pretty damned clear to me...

bobbypyn said:

http://ghostpix.com/coastuse/cutlist.html

check these out; I picked at random from the last C2C broadcast they were on. pretty damned clear to me...

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dont you see that they are telling you what to hear?

9.)(Barry) If you stick your camera down there don't drop it (Child EVP) "Can I See It"

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you get to hear the "evp" by clicking on the "can i see it" by then your already programed to hear "can i see it"

without them telling you what to hear i bet you wouldnt come to same conclusions as them

...like I said: we are discussing the existence of oranges; NOT what the orange juice tastes like!!! it will taste different to everybody, so WHERE DID IT COME FROM!?!? why can't ya'll get past this? the voices are there. they should NOT be there; fuck what they're saying and it's varied interpretations; HOW DID THE VOICES GET THERE IN 1ST PLACE!?!? lets start with that, shall we?

bobbypyn said:

...like I said: we are discussing the existence of oranges; NOT what the orange juice tastes like!!! it will taste different to everybody, so WHERE DID IT COME FROM!?!? why can't ya'll get past this? the voices are there. they should NOT be there; fuck what they're saying and it's varied interpretations; HOW DID THE VOICES GET THERE IN 1ST PLACE!?!? lets start with that, shall we?

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they arent voices there are only noises that some ones suggested sounds like voices. if the voices were so clear why do they have to label them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia <= is a look back into our past from our evolution

ginjawarrior said:

dont you see that they are telling you what to hear?


you get to hear the "evp" by clicking on the "can i see it" by then your already programed to hear "can i see it"

without them telling you what to hear i bet you wouldnt come to same conclusions as them

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Bobbypyn. Do you see the value in controlling, ruling out, simple explanations, such a front loading and pareidolia? You say the voices shouldn't be there, and that is correct! What also shouldn't be there is any type of interfering noise, radio waves being only one example, that can be misheard as voices, otherwise you have not controlled for the simplest of explanations, a mistake of sound. To do that you would need a completely passive system. Spiritcom is admirable for trying to add controls, but they were far from ruling out every explanation.

Please look at this page, and even if you ignore his conclusions, try to see how front loading (being told what to hear before you hear it) works. You can read this or download it to listen to. This page is about backwards talking, these don't even sound like evps, but it's the same concept.

I understand that this does not even begin to address you mirror/text msg experience, but my concern is that you don't understand why we need to rule out worldly explanations. I hope that page will help you see at least one other possible explanation.

If you can indeed confirm what someone miles away writes in a mirror, that seems pretty convincing. It does remind me of a common magicians trick where someone writes on a piece of paper, the magician is several feet away and unable to see. The magician never has contact with the paper or comes near the subject. The paper is eaten, burned or otherwise destroyed by the subject. The magician lifts his shirt and written on his belly, in the subjects handwriting, is the word(s) from the paper. Pretty amazing trick, yet no one is claiming anything supernatural. It is simply a manipulation that takes advantage of the human tendency to make subconscious mistakes, as well as trick materials I suspect.

Am I saying this is what's happening to you? Nah not at all. What I am saying is that controls must be put in place to rule out tricks like these. I can't figure out how a magician does this, but I do not go from "I can't explain" to "explained by spirits". From our perspective, this trick and the mirror/txt trick seem very similar, and may have similar explanations. A true scientist would not rule out your experience based on it resembling a magic trick, but he would take every precaution to ensure it isn't one of those tricks.

My concern is that you are not trained to see through these tricks, or even aware of the ways the human mind can be manipulated. Even a scientist can be fooled, quite easily, if they are not trained and do not follow the scientific method. This has been demonstrated by project alpha.

Speaking of voices that should not be there~ It was the year 1994 my sister had some "evil" friends, self proclaimed satan worshipers. It was her daughters 2 birthday and she had 3 of her " evil friends", my self and my our mother over for cake, etc. My mom was filming the the birthday party we all sang happy birthday (including 3 friends. Now here is the Erie but solid truth~ While we sang happy birthday, I could hear all of us singing just fine, even the lady "friend" that was smiling the whole way through the song. But after the party and back at my mom's house we played the tape for my father who did not attend. When we got to the birthday singing there was no singing from the 3 "friends" ? Instead they where all speaking in unison saying some crazy stuff like and to the moon she shall ..... I mean clear has day. There was only 3 seconds worth. But there was no signing from them and you heard clear what they where saying!!! How the video camera picked that up amazes my family to this day.
This is a true story, and I will not try and defend it. Everyone who watched the tape heard exactly the same as the family !!

GoldenGanja13 said:

Speaking of voices that should not be there~ It was the year 1994 my sister had some "evil" friends, self proclaimed satan worshipers. It was her daughters 2 birthday and she had 3 of her " evil friends", my self and my our mother over for cake, etc. My mom was filming the the birthday party we all sang happy birthday (including 3 friends. Now here is the Erie but solid truth~ While we sang happy birthday, I could hear all of us singing just fine, even the lady "friend" that was smiling the whole way through the song. But after the party and back at my mom's house we played the tape for my father who did not attend. When we got to the birthday singing there was no singing from the 3 "friends" ? Instead they where all speaking in unison saying some crazy stuff like and to the moon she shall ..... I mean clear has day. There was only 3 seconds worth. But there was no signing from them and you heard clear what they where saying!!! How the video camera picked that up amazes my family to this day.
This is a true story, and I will not try and defend it. Everyone who watched the tape heard exactly the same as the family !!

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surely you kept the video tape? i know i wouldnt have deleted over such a weird occurrence.
you could be showing us the video to show us

The Video, even though taken so many years ago, I am sure it's still at my Mom's. It was her first grand daughters birthday and only 3 seconds is not"explainable". The camera is focused on my niece and the cake, the voices just start and stop out of the blue. So there is nothing to see, just hear.

ginjawarrior said:

surely you kept the video tape? i know i wouldnt have deleted over such a weird occurrence.
you could be showing us the video to show us

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GoldenGanja13 said:

Speaking of voices that should not be there~ It was the year 1994 my sister had some "evil" friends, self proclaimed satan worshipers. It was her daughters 2 birthday and she had 3 of her " evil friends", my self and my our mother over for cake, etc. My mom was filming the the birthday party we all sang happy birthday (including 3 friends. Now here is the Erie but solid truth~ While we sang happy birthday, I could hear all of us singing just fine, even the lady "friend" that was smiling the whole way through the song. But after the party and back at my mom's house we played the tape for my father who did not attend. When we got to the birthday singing there was no singing from the 3 "friends" ? Instead they where all speaking in unison saying some crazy stuff like and to the moon she shall ..... I mean clear has day. There was only 3 seconds worth. But there was no signing from them and you heard clear what they where saying!!! How the video camera picked that up amazes my family to this day.
This is a true story, and I will not try and defend it. Everyone who watched the tape heard exactly the same as the family !!

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That is a delightfully creepy story, thanks for sharing. No sarcasm intended. I find EVP's to be especially creepy for some reason, which is why I really enjoyed an interview I heard with Brain Jones. He claims he does not seek out these voices, and would in fact prefer to not hear them. He hears talking in almost all sounds, like a door hinge squeaking, and has recorded a great deal of it. He has some recordings of animals talking that gives me goosebumps.

Here is the interviews (voices actually interfere during the interview) Search for Brian Jones, there are several separate interviews.

Here is his personal page which includes the animal communications.

So you see I find the idea of ghostly communication via manipulation of sound and equipment to be a fascinating subject. I would love for it to be true, yet I have standards for what it takes to convince me to believe something. I can not go from 'unexplained' to 'explained by ghosts', especially when 'explained by pareidolia' fits much better.

only if I slipped blotter will i believe in ghosts

Heisenberg said:

That is a delightfully creepy story, thanks for sharing. No sarcasm intended. I find EVP's to be especially creepy for some reason, which is why I really enjoyed an interview I heard with Brain Jones. He claims he does not seek out these voices, and would in fact prefer to not hear them. He hears talking in almost all sounds, like a door hinge squeaking, and has recorded a great deal of it. He has some recordings of animals talking that gives me goosebumps.

Here is the interviews (voices actually interfere during the interview) Search for Brian Jones, there are several separate interviews.

Here is his personal page which includes the animal communications.

So you see I find the idea of ghostly communication via manipulation of sound and equipment to be a fascinating subject. I would love for it to be true, yet I have standards for what it takes to convince me to believe something. I can not go from 'unexplained' to 'explained by ghosts', especially when 'explained by pareidolia' fits much better.

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Very well said and just as valid a point! A tenured scientist at work would not take a irrational and far deduction such as "unexplained to explained by ghost".

I can attest to true concrete scientific evidence of a phenomena known as apparition(s). However, I do not deduct this to be something heavenly, demonic, or godsend. Or even per say something trying an attempt to "communicate" in some form or another. But some believe confusion is a common form of communication, and in a sense if these apparition did anything , I would say they added more confusion than helped me draw a rational conclusion on their true existence

In my opinion most who "see" these apparition(s) tend to deduce it to being a "ghost", but still to this day we can't scientifically prove ghost are nothing more than say a hallucination or illusion.

Electronic Voice Phenomena although they can be very creepy and very "humanly intelligent" it is still not enough.

Off Topic, +Rep to JMain for the Lovely Jubbly Avatar

But guys, it's like this: I could come up with rational explanations for everything I've experienced if I were to look hard enough, with a critical enough view. I could choose to completely ignore the mystical aspect of what I've experinced; but why would I do that when I have opened a door to eternity?