Chemical weapons used by Syria

ThePerfectGrow said:

It would seem that contradictory self-serving Saudi and Qatari oil interests are pulling the strings of an equally self-serving oil-focused US policy in Syria, if not the wider region. It is this - the problem of establishing a pliable opposition which the US and its oil allies feel confident will play ball, pipeline-style, in a post-Assad Syria - that will determine the nature of any prospective intervention: not concern for Syrian life.


What is beyond doubt is that Assad is a war criminal whose government deserves to be overthrown. The question is by whom, and for what interests?

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One could apply that same logic to Obama, or practically any president of the USA in the past 50+ years. It's all a matter of perspective.
Also, are you suggesting the FSA are NOT war criminals themselves? The situation over there seems to be a true "least worst" dilemma.
If some of the appropriated numbers I've seen are correct, the FSA (and their ilk) have killed far more Syrians than Assad's forces.
From my perspective, I don't see a Sunni led gov't being a "prosperous" alternative (especially if it is headed by Morsi).
They're already doing the burka BS in rebel held areas. I actually ran across an interesting quote last night that might be of value.

They call it a revolution, but in fact it has nothing to do with revolutions. A revolution needs thinkers. A revolution is built on thought. Where are their thinkers? A revolution needs leaders. Who is its leader? Revolutions are built on science and thought not on ignorance, on pushing the country ahead not taking it centuries back, on spreading light not cutting power lines. A revolution is usually done by the people not by importing foreigners to rebel against the people. A revolution is in the interest of people not against the interests of people. Is this a revolution? Are those revolutionaries? They are a bunch of criminals.

Since I couldn't find the source of the quote, I'll just leave it as anonymous words for thought.

Not perspective unless up mean the winners. The winners try the War Criminals, not the losers.

As far as some sects of Sunni are concerned every single one of us Americans are to be put to death or work camped to death.

So, be careful with that war crime talk. If it ever happens if won't be just the President, that get's it.

Doer said:

Well, I'm saying it's not informative, as I have been following along, so I'll grant you that one. Also, these are no better facts on the ground than is commonly known. And it is too deep a dive. I don't think, without Arabic, and not being a born Syrian, I have any idea of what the internal business of these people mean.

I know there are Christians and Alewateies or something....don't care. That is for them and they can hang Assad. Or maybe the play is the Chemical Allie will hang, as a goat and Assad joins the bigger political play as a signatory.

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Gee, thanks for the grant
I agree, too, that not being able to comprehend Arabic or being Syrian, it is difficult to really know what the internal affairs are. As I imagine it is equally difficult for Burka draping zealots to comprehend the shock Westerners feel when they see that "lifestyle" being promoted.

I'm trying to be the "blade of grass" in all this, though. However, every once in a while, I still find myself being an "oak tree"... trying to minimize cultural and political influence from affecting perspective is not an easy task, since it requires cold introspection. Yet bias manages to creep up through the "roots", still...

I'm Wing Chun / Sun Tsu on this. Patience, ruse, and eye on the prize. (they won't tell us that one) Prize? What prize? World Peace? Riiiiiiight.

Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, is the height of inhumanity. One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present help to his sovereign, no master of victory.

Sun Tsu, The Art of War

He is speaking of the various types of spies, HUMINT we call it. And he is speaking that last about Bill and Hillary who were and are too fearful to use human spies, if they are rough trade.

heckler73 said:

One could apply that same logic to Obama, or practically any president of the USA in the past 50+ years. It's all a matter of perspective.
Also, are you suggesting the FSA are NOT war criminals themselves? The situation over there seems to be a true "least worst" dilemma.
If some of the appropriated numbers I've seen are correct, the FSA (and their ilk) have killed far more Syrians than Assad's forces.
From my perspective, I don't see a Sunni led gov't being a "prosperous" alternative (especially if it is headed by Morsi).
They're already doing the burka BS in rebel held areas. I actually ran across an interesting quote last night that might be of value.

They call it a revolution, but in fact it has nothing to do with revolutions. A revolution needs thinkers. A revolution is built on thought. Where are their thinkers? A revolution needs leaders. Who is its leader? Revolutions are built on science and thought not on ignorance, on pushing the country ahead not taking it centuries back, on spreading light not cutting power lines. A revolution is usually done by the people not by importing foreigners to rebel against the people. A revolution is in the interest of people not against the interests of people. Is this a revolution? Are those revolutionaries? They are a bunch of criminals.

Since I couldn't find the source of the quote, I'll just leave it as anonymous words for thought.

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My point is all the parties intervening in Syria's escalating conflict - the U.S., Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, Israel on one side providing limited support to opposition forces, with Russia, China and Iran on the other shoring up Assad's regime - are doing so for their own narrow, competing geopolitical oil interests and not for humanity! This is a just ploy too move forward with the real interest at hand.

I watched a very lengthy interview with Assad last night. Kucinnich and Palcot, an unlikely pair, and an hour of questions.

I see his point, Assad's. I think he is in trouble with this opposition and was forced to use the gas as plea for help.

Assad claims it is 80 - 90% Sunni Mutts he is facing. He said he was doing OK, and had changed a lot of his way, Constitutional changes, wider voting.etc.

Assad's story is that he was settling it down 2 years ago but, the balance has shifted, from 10% mad dogs, to maybe 90% now and they are moving into the villages he is sworn to protect.

So, not to be dimssed or swallowed whole. But, his is the responsibility, and there will be elections for President next year.


That is what the Mutts will disrupt and make it look like Asssad is non-Democratic. That all his reforms were lies.

This is why he used the WMDs, (without admitting he did)

He said they never refused to sign the WMD treaty and were never given a time limit to sign it. So, now they see this is he right time.

Grains of truth everywhere.

Doer said:

I watched a very lengthy interview with Assad last night. Kucinnich and Palcot, an unlikely pair, and an hour of questions.

I see his point, Assad's. I think he is in trouble with this opposition and was forced to use the gas as plea for help.

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Which interview was this? Not the Charlie Rose one, I assume.

And how does this "plea for help" work? Perhaps it's too early in the morning for my tiny brain to comprehend, but I can't see how that is a rational choice.
The prerequisite conditions underlying that decision, from my perspective, would imply desperation on Assad's part.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but judging from the (limited) info leading up to the event and post-event outcomes of battles (especially in that area), I fail to see the need for such desperate action.

EDIT: Never mind... I just found out about the FOX interview...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxL7RoxU74

EDIT 2: Since this subject comes up a great deal in part 2 of the interview, here's the UN report.
http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/787427/u-n-syria-chemical-report.pdf

Assad now says chemical weapons take a year and cost $1 bill to destroy.

And that the United States should front the cash, he's relentless, Im actually starting to like the guy!

Well... The other reporter interviewing Assad brought up the trajectory of the munitions as determined by the UN inspectors saying it came from the HQ of the Republican Guard (Red Berets)...

So... that piqued my interest intensely... what does the UN report say?

From Appendix 5:
[HR][/HR]Impact Site Number 1
The munition linked to this impact site, by observed and measured characteristics, indicatively matches one of the variants of the M 14 artillery rocket, with either an original or an improvised warhead (not observed at the impact site). In the final stage of this trajectory, the projectile hit and pierced through a vegetal screen existing over one of the adjacent walls, before impacting the ground producing a shallow crater.

The line linking the crater and the piercing in the vegetal screen can be conclusively established and has a bearing of 35 degrees. This line represents an inverse azimuth to the original trajectory of the rocket, that is to say, the original trajectory of the projectile, as it hit the ground, had an azimuth of 215 degrees.

Impact Site Number 2 is located 65 meters away from number 1 and with an azimuth of 214 degrees. Both relative positions are fully congruent with the dispersion pattern commonly associated with rockets launched from a single, multi-barrel, launcher.

Impact Site Number 4
The munition related to this impact site by observed and measured characteristics indicatively matches a 330 mm caliber, artillery rocket. The projectile, in the last stage of its trajectory, hit the surface in an area of earthy, relatively soft, ground where the shaft/engine of the projectile remained dug in, undisturbed until investigated.

The said shaft/engine, presenting no form of lateral bending, pointed precisely in a bearing of 285 degrees that, again, represent a reverse azimuth to the trajectory followed by the rocket during its flight. It can be, thus, concluded that the original azimuth of the rocket trajectory had an azimuth of 105 degrees, in an East/Southeast trajectory.
[HR][/HR]

I need to see that on a map to fully digest it...

Meanwhile, I can't believe how late I am in seeing this:

[video=youtube;PmwjXp45syI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmwjXp45syI[/video]

Well, we and the Russians, French, ESOC, etc, watch from Space. The US Congress and everyone knows but the dumbed and darkened down, public in wartime.

We have no need to know. And evidence is just a snap in time. It gets moved and the US looks foolish....not an accident. Just a minor side effect of having the world view, of hanging Sadam.

So, let the UN inspectors give us the evidence, and unlike Sadam, we let Assad off the hook.....for now.

All Assad seems to be trying to say now, is radar tracks work in both directions. It could have been shot from the rebel territory.

But, the full color, high definition spectral analysis, only shows the lift engine plume on one side of the track.

And the giga-pixel, real time imagery show gas masked troops fueling and launching at that site, at that time.

A good thing about Russia taking the lead in the nerve gas area, is that now they are supporting Assad directly against incursion by the US, and that might be something that they could regret. The US should back off and see what happens and let Russia be responsible for all the nasty things that are going to continue to occur for the foreseeable future. It will be interesting to see how Russia deals with the insurgents and the problems that it might cause at home. There are Muslims in Russia right?

Jimdamick said:

A good thing about Russia taking the lead in the nerve gas area, is that now they are supporting Assad directly against incursion by the US, and that might be something that they could regret. The US should back off and see what happens and let Russia be responsible for all the nasty things that are going to continue to occur for the foreseeable future. It will be interesting to see how Russia deals with the insurgents and the problems that it might cause at home. There are Muslims in Russia right?

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In mother Russia, we no give fuck, we not leetle beeches like dumb 'mericans.

Jimdamick said:

A good thing about Russia taking the lead in the nerve gas area, is that now they are supporting Assad directly against incursion by the US, and that might be something that they could regret. The US should back off and see what happens and let Russia be responsible for all the nasty things that are going to continue to occur for the foreseeable future. It will be interesting to see how Russia deals with the insurgents and the problems that it might cause at home. There are Muslims in Russia right?

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allowing the russians to appoint themselves the arbiters of who can and cannot use chemical weapons is an idea Only A Leftist could dream up.

but im sure this will work out great.

what could go wrong?

nope, this definitely won't end in tears...

Dr Kynes said:

allowing the russians to appoint themselves the arbiters of who can and cannot use chemical weapons is an idea Only A Leftist could dream up.

but im sure this will work out great.

what could go wrong?

nope, this definitely won't end in tears...

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Meh, it's generally the Americans who appoint themselves to oversee stuff, let Russia take this play for once, just sit the fuck down!

russia, being well schooled in the art of running puppet regimes, and letting their attack dogs do their dirty work (yeah yeah israel. pretend america and israel dont see eye to eye on everything for once, in other words, embrace reality...)
russia will simply give assad MORE chems, gve the rebels more chems, and let them waste each other and if there happens to be an "accident" in chechnya, well so much the better.

the russians gassed the afghans, the russians gave saddam chemical weapons and experts to teach him how to use it, sponsored his nuclear program, assist the iranians in their mad delusions of power, and otherwise make themselves a nuisance to everybody in the mid east for no apparent reason than to stymie US goals in the region.

and these are the guys you want handling this issue?

the solution is simple, if assad used gas, (and the evidence says he did) then he should face consequences. likewise the evidence is inescapable that the "rebels" (and by that i mean international jihadjis looking to topple one more asshole who was not quite asshole enough for their purposes) also were trucking in chems by the boatload. assad just seems to have been the first to shout "Pull My Finger!" and let one rip.

the solution:
EMBARGO.
no shipments of anything, not food, not "medicine" not arms, not "baby milk" not money, NOTHIN into syria, any nation that violates the mebargo gets the same embargo on them, and so on.
anyone who wants to help nutbars gas themselves is probably gonna help somebody else let a few stinkers off too, and once the gas bombs start rolling around on the open market, then everything will go to shit in a hurry.

i say blockade syria, and let them wallow in their own crapulence until they A: beg for intercession and welcome outside assistance with open arms or B: after 5-10 years when the posions have dissipated, look at this new awesome homeland for the plaestinians! they can move right in.

Dr Kynes said:

russia, being well schooled in the art of running puppet regimes, and letting their attack dogs do their dirty work (yeah yeah israel. pretend america and israel dont see eye to eye on everything for once, in other words, embrace reality...)
russia will simply give assad MORE chems, gve the rebels more chems, and let them waste each other and if there happens to be an "accident" in chechnya, well so much the better.

the russians gassed the afghans, the russians gave saddam chemical weapons and experts to teach him how to use it, sponsored his nuclear program, assist the iranians in their mad delusions of power, and otherwise make themselves a nuisance to everybody in the mid east for no apparent reason than to stymie US goals in the region.

and these are the guys you want handling this issue?

the solution is simple, if assad used gas, (and the evidence says he did) then he should face consequences. likewise the evidence is inescapable that the "rebels" (and by that i mean international jihadjis looking to topple one more asshole who was not quite asshole enough for their purposes) also were trucking in chems by the boatload. assad just seems to have been the first to shout "Pull My Finger!" and let one rip.

the solution:
EMBARGO.
no shipments of anything, not food, not "medicine" not arms, not "baby milk" not money, NOTHIN into syria, any nation that violates the mebargo gets the same embargo on them, and so on.
anyone who wants to help nutbars gas themselves is probably gonna help somebody else let a few stinkers off too, and once the gas bombs start rolling around on the open market, then everything will go to shit in a hurry.

i say blockade syria, and let them wallow in their own crapulence until they A: beg for intercession and welcome outside assistance with open arms or B: after 5-10 years when the posions have dissipated, look at this new awesome homeland for the plaestinians! they can move right in.

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So, you agree, hugs not guns? Except when it's us two homies with a Glock in one hand and a 40 of Mickey in the other, you feel me?

[video=youtube;leL_bsHEZdM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leL_bsHEZdM[/video]

Russians are pretty hilarious tbh. Vladimir saying things like we're supporting cannibals (after an alleged rebel was seen eating a soldiers guts, sounds pretty messed up) and talks about him not protecting assad but international law. Riiiigghttt. Yeah over there in Russia they care so much about basic international standards, that's why Vladimir pretty much arrests anyone who disagrees with him, or kills in the case of Litvinenko, not to mention their recent stance on gays. Sends Assad weapons and says he was just completing an earlier transaction. I mean come on this guy doesnt give a fuck about other human beings.

Giving a fuck about other human beings is an anti-qualification for power.

Thus, we see the conundrum of the world.

Canna Sylvan said:

So, you agree, hugs not guns? Except when it's us two homies with a Glock in one hand and a 40 of Mickey in the other, you feel me?

[video=youtube;leL_bsHEZdM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leL_bsHEZdM[/video]

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i feel that homey, but i pack sig, and prefer Colt 45 like all true gangstas.

Doer said:

Giving a fuck about other human beings is an anti-qualification for power.

Thus, we see the conundrum of the world.

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I don't expect them to care about me so I'd prefer to limit their power over me. Central planners are the nut low.