Can we defeat Prop 19? will it pass? Is it as bogus as it seems?

mccumcumber said:

He's not deflecting to another piece of legislation. You have repetitively asked for proof that you will not be effected and he's giving it to you very clearly. You now are just refusing to acknowledge it. If you really do still think that 215 users will be effected then that's cool... I guess. But he did just slap the evidence right in front of you that you won't, so if you're actually concerned about being effected, read what uncle buck posts, and you will find that 19 is good.

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i drew him another picture!

The Ruiner seems to be under the impression that Prop 19 will allow the government to fuck them. Let us take into consideration that cannabis is currently a schedule 1 drug. If I recall correctly, cocaine is a schedule 2 drug. The illegality of marijuana is far greater than of cocaine. Can you accept this?

Now let us move towards a law that will allow individuals of 21 or older to obtain an ounce of marijuana after it has been taxed for and sold properly thought a designated source, such as a dispensary. What the fuck is wrong with that, and how does it get in the way of the CUA and the MMP rights? If anything it extends them unless there is current statute that doesn't interfere accordingly.

So what exactly are you trying to get at? Put your paranoia to the side, and answer this question.

all the bill does is put control of marijuana growth and sales in the hands of a few, this is not good for this industry or any industry for that matter because it takes away competition (monopoly), without competition prices go up, quality goes down, etc. Needs to be legalized just in different way, some interesting bills on the 2012 ballot.

Prop 19 is wirtten for the sole purpose of creating a commercial marijuana industry....the rich get richer

its also wriiten to give each city its own power for regulation and taxation as they see fit

[video]http://current.com/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOzdaPbYLQo[/video]

trader54321 said:

all the bill does is put control of marijuana growth and sales in the hands of a few, this is not good for this industry or any industry for that matter because it takes away competition (monopoly), without competition prices go up, quality goes down, etc. Needs to be legalized just in different way, some interesting bills on the 2012 ballot.

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definitely some interesting bills nationwide. colorado wants to make fetuses the same as humans (making birth control effectively illegal) and arizona will likely get in on the medical marijuana train.

i think you are misusing the term 'monopoly' here by a long way...there will be more than 'a few', as you say, that compete for market share in the new market. and i also don't think prices will go up, and especially don't think quality will go down. that is just bunk, especially since people can grow their own high quality bud for so much less (maybe $50 an ounce).

furthermore, i think it is dishonest to say that 'all the bill does' can be summed up as one thing. this bill also allows the affirmative defense, recreational use and cultivation, and much more.

colonuggs said:

Prop 19 is wirtten for the sole purpose of creating a commercial marijuana industry....the rich get richer

its also wriiten to give each city its own power for regulation and taxation as they see fit

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it does give each city its own power for regulation and taxation as they see fit, you are correct.

but you are wrong when you claim this bill was written for 'the sole purpose' of creating a commercial marijuana industry that makes the rich richer. anyone can get in on the green rush, firstly. but more importantly, besides the 'sole purpose' you assert, other dual purposes include letting people grow their own for very, very cheap, argue the affirmative defense, and much much more.

like trader, i urge you to please learn the meaning of the term 'sole purpose' or 'all the bill does' before ignoring so many other good things included in this bill with your dishonest generalization. thank you.

colonuggs said:

Prop 19 is wirtten for the sole purpose of creating a commercial marijuana industry....the rich get richer

its also wriiten to give each city its own power for regulation and taxation as they see fit

[video]http://current.com/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOzdaPbYLQo[/video]

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Did you listen to this cunt? She is arguing that a misdemeanor and an infraction against actually being able to walk around with an ounce without being hassled by the police is far better. Not only that, she seems to care about MMJ patients. Let us take into consideration that MMJ patients will also fall into the category of being able to walk around with at least an ounce with them.

Are you fucking kidding me? She said up to a $100 fine can be placed on infractions if Arnold signs the bill on his desk. Are you kidding me? Grow up.

What is the difference between medical marijuana and regular marijuana? ABSOLUTELY NONE AT ALL! IT IS STILL MARIJUANA.

If this goes in the hands in the commercial enterprises, you will be better off because they call pull off larger cultivation than any single individuals can. We're talking about venture capitalists and private equity firms investing in these enterprises that will reduce the amount of marijuana, where it can be regulated, and provided on a large scale.

She keeps talking about how the decrease in price of marijuana is not put in the law, and as a result will not occur. Complete horse shit. When alcohol prohibition was in effect and it was later turned over, there was absolutely nothing in the constitution that said prices would drop. But guess what? They did. Because it left the black market and entered the real market. Illegality raises prices. Legality drops them.

Then she goes on about how permits will need to be obtained. No shit? Alcohol licenses are required for bars, grocery stores, and gas stations to sell liquor. The same for tobacco, lottery, and a bunch of other shit. The idea behind this is to fucking regulate it and be able to make taxes off of it. And she goes on to say how cities can tax as much as they want. Just because they have the ability doesn't mean they will. If City A charges an insane tax, individuals will go to City B where it is less cheap. As a result City A won't get the tax revenue and will find it in their best interest to drop the price. Does a bar shit its pants when it pays 10-50k towards a liquor license? No, it puts it into its cost structure and pays it off over time. Of course an investment in capital is required for any enterprise to start. She just seems to be one of those individuals that cares more about the individual grower in his own backyard. Collectively they don't do anything but fill with their own wallets with an overpriced crop. That is fucking it. And her case against Oaksterdam is complete horseshit. We can not do anything about individuals that have been caught previously. If they violated the law at that point, there is legally nothing can be done except for them to accept their punishment when it occurred.

To sit there and believe any drug can go without regulation is fucking pathetic. We have the FDA regulating prescription drugs and some over the counter drugs. We have a bureau that goes by the name of the Bureau Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) that also dabbles in these issues.

Seriously, are you guys serious???

Of course we are. Just because you're in love with capitalism, doesn't mean the rest of us are ignorant of the fact that commercialism has excessively negative effects on the industries it touches. I find it rather amusing that you seriously consider it a viable option that people should have to uproot themselves and their families because municipalities have absolute authority to allow or disallow cannabis and impose taxes at will. I'd rather be pathetic by way of fighting a corrupt and inadequate system that is a detriment to the public it serves badly, than be the one sitting there going "it's just the way it is and no one can do anything about it".

TokinPodPilot said:

Of course we are. Just because you're in love with capitalism, doesn't mean the rest of us are ignorant of the fact that commercialism has excessively negative effects on the industries it touches. I find it rather amusing that you seriously consider it a viable option that people should have to uproot themselves and their families because municipalities have absolute authority to allow or disallow cannabis and impose taxes at will. I'd rather be pathetic by way of fighting a corrupt and inadequate system that is a detriment to the public it serves badly, than be the one sitting there going "it's just the way it is and no one can do anything about it".

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I love capitalism, but I accept it has its inefficiencies. Take a look at any post of mine in the Politics section on this forum.

Answer this: what possible negative effects will commercialization of marijuana have on smokers? I can understand the growers, but IMO screw them. Industrialization and automation left plenty out of work, but the economy recovered and jobs were created later on. And you do understand that a majority of marijuana actually is in the hands of Mexican cartels, correct? You're against uprooting them and their revenue sources? Please.

Did you even read my entire post at all, or did you just read a sentence and let your temper get the best of you? I've talked about how tobacco, alcohol, prescription drugs, and others are regulated and taxed. Why shouldn't marijuana be part of that process? And why shouldn't municipalities have the right to sell or not. I live around areas where no alcohol can be sold. So people go to the next town and pay the sales tax and go back home and do their thing. The fact that each municipality will have their own say will lead to competition amongst them and end up in lower prices for you and everyone else. Keep in mind that marijuana tourism will probably upstart at the same time and lead to more gross revenue for this cash strapped state.

I can't believe you all sit there and care about a bunch of growers that just don't care about you at all. They have the ability to keep prices inflated, and you just sit there and pay away idly. Not to mention that actually receiving an infraction or a misdemeanor in your eyes is far more reputable than not being hassled at all is so backwards it boggles my mind.

The Ruiner said:

again, "possess and consume" and "bought and sold" are not "CULTIVATION"

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With regard to a simple citizen. Not with regard to a citizen with MMJ. Sheesh.

except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5

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11362.5. (a) This section shall be known and may be cited as the Compassionate Use Act of 1996. (b) (1) The people of the State of California hereby find and declare that the purposes of the Compassionate Use Act of 1996 are as follows: (A) To ensure that seriously ill Californians have the right to obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes where that medical use is deemed appropriate and has been recommended by a physician who has determined that the person's health would benefit from the use of marijuana in the treatment of cancer, anorexia, AIDS, chronic pain, spasticity, glaucoma, arthritis, migraine, or any other illness for which marijuana provides relief. (B) To ensure that patients and their primary caregivers who obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes upon the recommendation of a physician are not subject to criminal prosecution or sanction. (C) To encourage the federal and state governments to implement a plan to provide for the safe and affordable distribution of marijuana to all patients in medical need of marijuana. (2) Nothing in this section shall be construed to supersede legislation prohibiting persons from engaging in conduct that endangers others, nor to condone the diversion of marijuana for nonmedical purposes. (c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no physician in this state shall be punished, or denied any right or privilege, for having recommended marijuana to a patient for medical purposes. (d) Section 11357, relating to the possession of marijuana, and Section 11358, relating to the cultivation of marijuana, shall not apply to a patient, or to a patient's primary caregiver, who possesses or cultivates marijuana for the personal medical purposes of the patient upon the written or oral recommendation or approval of a physician. (e) For the purposes of this section, "primary caregiver" means the individual designated by the person exempted under this section who has consistently assumed responsibility for the housing, health, or safety of that person.

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Do you really not understand what that is saying?

The Mastermind said:

I love capitalism, but I accept it has its inefficiencies. Take a look at any post of mine in the Politics section on this forum.

Answer this: what possible negative effects will commercialization of marijuana have on smokers? I can understand the growers, but IMO screw them. Industrialization and automation left plenty out of work, but the economy recovered and jobs were created later on. And you do understand that a majority of marijuana actually is in the hands of Mexican cartels, correct? You're against uprooting them and their revenue sources? Please.

Did you even read my entire post at all, or did you just read a sentence and let your temper get the best of you? I've talked about how tobacco, alcohol, prescription drugs, and others are regulated and taxed. Why shouldn't marijuana be part of that process? And why shouldn't municipalities have the right to sell or not. I live around areas where no alcohol can be sold. So people go to the next town and pay the sales tax and go back home and do their thing. The fact that each municipality will have their own say will lead to competition amongst them and end up in lower prices for you and everyone else. Keep in mind that marijuana tourism will probably upstart at the same time and lead to more gross revenue for this cash strapped state.

I can't believe you all sit there and care about a bunch of growers that just don't care about you at all. They have the ability to keep prices inflated, and you just sit there and pay away idly. Not to mention that actually receiving an infraction or a misdemeanor in your eyes is far more reputable than not being hassled at all is so backwards it boggles my mind.

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If there are hostility issues to be resolved, you're the one who needs to do the work, mate. Your post isn't hard to read or nor is your viewpoint hard to understand. The fact that you think the effects of commercialization on the alcohol, tobacco, and pharmaceuticals industries is a good thing speaks to your perspective all too well. The Mexican cartels comment is laughable at best. Not to mention your grossly inaccurate perspectives on growers. But, please continue with the personal insults. Those are probably doing more positive effect for the opponents of Prop. 19 since those who are undecided are getting a look what type of people really want this to pass.

lick me.

i'm voting yes.

The Mastermind said:

I love capitalism, but I accept it has its inefficiencies. Take a look at any post of mine in the Politics section on this forum.

Answer this: what possible negative effects will commercialization of marijuana have on smokers? I can understand the growers, but IMO screw them. Industrialization and automation left plenty out of work, but the economy recovered and jobs were created later on. And you do understand that a majority of marijuana actually is in the hands of Mexican cartels, correct? You're against uprooting them and their revenue sources? Please.

Did you even read my entire post at all, or did you just read a sentence and let your temper get the best of you? I've talked about how tobacco, alcohol, prescription drugs, and others are regulated and taxed. Why shouldn't marijuana be part of that process? And why shouldn't municipalities have the right to sell or not. I live around areas where no alcohol can be sold. So people go to the next town and pay the sales tax and go back home and do their thing. The fact that each municipality will have their own say will lead to competition amongst them and end up in lower prices for you and everyone else. Keep in mind that marijuana tourism will probably upstart at the same time and lead to more gross revenue for this cash strapped state.

I can't believe you all sit there and care about a bunch of growers that just don't care about you at all. They have the ability to keep prices inflated, and you just sit there and pay away idly. Not to mention that actually receiving an infraction or a misdemeanor in your eyes is far more reputable than not being hassled at all is so backwards it boggles my mind.

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Food for thought...You think the cartels now are control of most the Marijuana.... what # 19 will make them go away???.....

Think about when marijuanan is legal.... at that time... they will actually have a state that they can hide in...produce & sell it legally... # 19 does nothing to stop them...actually it helps them out...they dont care if they get $15 a g or $5 a g or $1 a g

Perhaps the most ironic piece of the puzzle is that the initiative to legalize marijuana actually makes it illegal to possess marijuana if it was purchased anywhere other than the very few licensed dispensaries in the state.

So if this initiative passes, better not get caught carrying marijuana you bought off your neighbor, your current dealer, or at a party; you could get arrested. And if you do buy from a licensed dispensary, better keep your receipts, because the burden of proof will be on you. Not only is this inconvenient, but it sets the industry up to be monopolized.

What’s more, if your city decides not to tax cannabis, then buying and selling marijuana in the city limits would remain illegal. You would be permitted to possess and consume marijuana, but you would be required to travel to another city that taxes cannabis to buy it

This is a move towards decreased, not increased, access. And since the initiative is so ambiguous that cities are destined to be tied up in a legal quagmire over how to interpret it, many local governments might find it simpler just to opt-out and send its citizens elsewhere.

Indeed, 129 cities did just that with medical marijuana, banning it outright, while still others have established moratoriums against dispensaries. In fact, of the entire state, only the city of Oakland has endorsed the initiative. A vote for the initiative will therefore not ensure local access to purchase marijuana legally

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tip top toker said:

With regard to a simple citizen. Not with regard to a citizen with MMJ. Sheesh.



Do you really not understand what that is saying?

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Why are you guys all talking about the CUA/MMP? That's never been the issue? What good does it do to divert back to them? The problem is with how shittily written prop 19 is.

The Mastermind said:

The Ruiner seems to be under the impression that Prop 19 will allow the government to fuck them. Let us take into consideration that cannabis is currently a schedule 1 drug. If I recall correctly, cocaine is a schedule 2 drug. The illegality of marijuana is far greater than of cocaine. Can you accept this?

Now let us move towards a law that will allow individuals of 21 or older to obtain an ounce of marijuana after it has been taxed for and sold properly thought a designated source, such as a dispensary. What the fuck is wrong with that, and how does it get in the way of the CUA and the MMP rights? If anything it extends them unless there is current statute that doesn't interfere accordingly.

So what exactly are you trying to get at? Put your paranoia to the side, and answer this question.

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Taking your own understanding of the prop does not equate what the bill actually is. so your watering down of the issue via your "back to basics" approach is pointless.

I am under the impression that 19 allows Dick Lee and Co. to fuck me and everyone else, not the govt. To say that CUA/MMP rights are to be left intact is misleading at best, and probably more accurately, a lie.

What I am trying to get at is that 19 is riddled with loopholes and ways that patients rights under CUA/MMP can be restricted at best, and more accurately, revoked. There is absolutely no clear intention to allow patient growers to continue as usual. You know it and I know it. Also, I think its STUPID for so many of you to be willing to let the CA govt set taxes and fees and regulations AT WILL, with no protections for yourselves either. You are opening the door for anyone with more money than you to determine what the fees, taxes, etc, will even be. Because if they are willing to pay higher taxes in order to shrink competiton WTF do you think is going to happen? The govt at any level is going to want to make as much damn money from this as possible, just think about it for a second: A horribly cash-strapped state, a seriously controversial measure, and an open door to restrict what already has been perceived as a growing problem in CA...the lawmakers are just WAITING for big-monied people to invest in this, subsequently eradicating competition and complications. MJ will be WAY easier to control when its only a few handfuls of individuals versus thousands...

Bottom line, way too many people got really excited about a really bad idea.

UncleBuck said:

View attachment 1187356

dear ruiner,

this picture which i amended more accurately reflects the situation.

best regards,

uncle buck

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UB,

Seriously dude? Seriously? That's what you have to offer to this debate? You really are pathetic.

The Mastermind said:

I love capitalism, but I accept it has its inefficiencies. Take a look at any post of mine in the Politics section on this forum.

Answer this: what possible negative effects will commercialization of marijuana have on smokers? I can understand the growers, but IMO screw them. Industrialization and automation left plenty out of work, but the economy recovered and jobs were created later on. And you do understand that a majority of marijuana actually is in the hands of Mexican cartels, correct? You're against uprooting them and their revenue sources? Please.

Did you even read my entire post at all, or did you just read a sentence and let your temper get the best of you? I've talked about how tobacco, alcohol, prescription drugs, and others are regulated and taxed. Why shouldn't marijuana be part of that process? And why shouldn't municipalities have the right to sell or not. I live around areas where no alcohol can be sold. So people go to the next town and pay the sales tax and go back home and do their thing. The fact that each municipality will have their own say will lead to competition amongst them and end up in lower prices for you and everyone else. Keep in mind that marijuana tourism will probably upstart at the same time and lead to more gross revenue for this cash strapped state.

I can't believe you all sit there and care about a bunch of growers that just don't care about you at all. They have the ability to keep prices inflated, and you just sit there and pay away idly. Not to mention that actually receiving an infraction or a misdemeanor in your eyes is far more reputable than not being hassled at all is so backwards it boggles my mind.

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Sounds like you dont live in california...

beardo said:

Jack Herer was against this law. Once it is on the books and their is profit being made the law will not change. Actually you can drink around your kids and smoke cigarettes in your house to but the law not only says you cant give marijuana to minors but states that you can not use it in a place where their are minors present= In your house where your family lives? thats how it is written sounds like it could lead to problems. It also limits the size of your grow space who is going to be inspecting grows? Everyone seems to think their will be a big price reduction but do you really think these big companies want to give you a good deal? Their touting this as good for the economy but when you think of how many people make a living on the states number one cash crop either directly or indirectly this could lead to even more poverty and unemployment. It also makes it illegal to buy and sell marijuana so you have to buy it from a dispensery ...Doesn't sound like legalization to me

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I know plenty of responsible adults that do not smoke cigarettes around their kids, nor do they drink around their kids. They tend to hang out and socialize with other adults when they do those things.

As for your argument about a dispensary, what are you smoking? That is for medical patients. This law will allow you, with no medical card, to grow your own fucking weed. How in the hell could you vote against that? Who cares about big grow ops? I would LOVE to be able to legally grow what I want in my 5'x5' plot w/o risking 10-15 years in a fucking prison for growing a plant that God put on this planet.

Go ahead and vote no....... Then sit on your ass and wait for a better law to come around. Good fucking luck with that one.

Serapis said:

I know plenty of responsible adults that do not smoke cigarettes around their kids, nor do they drink around their kids. They tend to hang out and socialize with other adults when they do those things.

As for your argument about a dispensary, what are you smoking? That is for medical patients. This law will allow you, with no medical card, to grow your own fucking weed. How in the hell could you vote against that? Who cares about big grow ops? I would LOVE to be able to legally grow what I want in my 5'x5' plot w/o risking 10-15 years in a fucking prison for growing a plant that God put on this planet.

Go ahead and vote no....... Then sit on your ass and wait for a better law to come around. Good fucking luck with that one.

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Well, there CAN be another, better,law to come around...thanks for the support!

Questions:

1. do you even live in CA?
2. are you MMJ patient?

If no then maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't grow, or be posting on the internet about your growing if you are worried about incarceration.

The Ruiner said:

This is totally bullshit....anyone who believes this DESERVES 19. UB, why are you lying? You know that there are no MMJ exemptions in regards to cultivation, under 19. No one can point to any part of the bill and say "look, there's the 215 exemption for cultivation" BECAUSE THERE ISNT ANY.

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Oh yes there is.... The bill specifically exempts restrictions on prop 215 patients and providers. It refers to the previous bill by name and number. Why are you lying? And why do you believe all pro prop 19 people are seeing $ dancing in their head? Thats plain stupid. Maybe the pro peeps like the idea of growing their own weed, or smoking it without risk of jail and huge fines. Just maybe this will take away the need for abusers to visit doctors in attempts to get cards.

You have not presented a good reason to be against the bill. The bill is not stripping any of your rights away, it grants additional rights. If you are a patient, why the fucl do you even care about 19? Have you actually read the bill?

The amendments consisted of adding the phrase "except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9" to the end of Items 7 & 8 under Purposes.

The initiative mentions medical marijuana three times and omits mentioning it once.

The Mentions

The three mentions are Items 6, 7, and 8 in Section 2, B. Purposes.

6. Provide easier, safer access for patients who need cannabis for medical purposes.

The courts will determine that this means Prop. 19 is intended to amend and supersede California's medical marijuana laws; Proposition 215 (H&S 11362.5) and SB 420 (H&S 11362.7-H&S 11362.9).

7. Ensure that if a city decides not to tax and regulate the sale of cannabis, that buying and selling cannabis within that city’s limits remain illegal, but that the city’s citizens still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

8. Ensure that if a city decides it does want to tax and regulate the buying and selling of cannabis (to and from adults only), that a strictly controlled legal system is implemented to oversee and regulate cultivation, distribution, and sales, and that the city will have control over how and how much cannabis can be bought and sold, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

There ya go, 3 exemptions for medical marijuana, and you claim there were none. You are blowing smoke.....

I am not tring to troll you. But clearly you are just reading what you want the bill to say. The thing your missing this is what the governemnt is willing to give. If you spit in there face and dont take it they wont give you a second chance. Is prop 19 the best no does it need work yes. But whats going to be a figth you can win. The one were you say F U to the U.S. Government we want it our way? FYI this aint Burger king. Or the fight were you have now have legal MJ and can put up justafiable proof to amend the law?


Yea I thought so. How about you all stop bitching about the law as it stands pass it then fix it.