Any Existing Evidence that Clones upon Clones Degrade Yield or Quality?

rzza said:

i think most of you have the wrong idea here. maybe im wrong but from experience i can tell you that if you maintain a mother and take clippings periodically, as long as your mom stays healthy, you will keep getting the same traits.

however, if you start with a seed and take a clone, tehn flower the main plant ....now clone that clone and flower the bigger one ....then clone that clone and flower that bigger one ...etc .,...you will get different traits each time. not neccessarily different but certain traits will be expressed more every time you do this.

example:
start with a genotype. qwerkle.
choose a phenotype thats characteristics are short, compact and purple. flower said plant but first take a cutting. the next cutting may be more purple and more compact. do this again and the next may be even MORE compact and more purple....
use the phenotype that stretches alot and by the fifth time you might be stretching 5x in flower.

Click to expand...

I see where your coming from here, but.....at what point would this be a bad thing? I mean what traits other than maybe height,or a bad mutation would be magnified and be nonbeneficial, personally on this grow I never have had anything other than carbon copies, but than again everyones experiance is different so you may be right.

Wolverine, I didnt say anything about your clones dying, I was just going over a common scenario I commonly hear about, and from what Ive done and seen they only keep the hermie genetics if the mother is not in a controlled environment ive done that process more than once on different strains,

taint said:

Don't get all worked up,sorry if I offended you.
I would truely love to see some pics of this drift,comparative pics of before and after would just settle this now wouldn't it.

Click to expand...

And how would you know that I even posted the same strain? That would be pretty easy to fake you know, but you'll either just have to take my word for it or not. I don't really care.

So..........................................bout what I figured.
I reckon next time ya hopefully won't take cuts off an obviously problematic plant.

taint said:

So..........................................bout what I figured.
I reckon next time ya hopefully won't take cuts off an obviously problematic plant.

Click to expand...

Fail. Don't talk to me anymore...

what i found is from my clones is that they seem to take more nutes at a younger age , grow more vigourisly, yields are still same could be i maintain changing out lights more often even if they dont burn out could be the reason from plant growth meaning my plants seem to be near a nuclear plant at the speed they grow ) i also have found that flowering times seem to be faster then previous

now with that being said i am hereing all this turning hermie crap being that i cloned for a true mother plant i have kept lights off for 48 hrs then lights on for 18/6 i am telling you tryed every possible way to make a hermie and it will not happen

DrFever said:

what i found is from my clones is that they seem to take more nutes at a younger age , grow more vigourisly, yields are still same could be i maintain changing out lights more often even if they dont burn out could be the reason from plant growth meaning my plants seem to be near a nuclear plant at the speed they grow ) i also have found that flowering times seem to be faster then previous

now with that being said i am hereing all this turning hermie crap being that i cloned for a true mother plant i have kept lights off for 48 hrs then lights on for 18/6 i am telling you tryed every possible way to make a hermie and it will not happen

Click to expand...

....its not that hard, just make a random erratic light cycle, its even easy to do on accident. is that all you did? try 24/0 then after a couple days shut them off to 12/12 with a light leak of some kind, works everytime for me

DrFever said:

what i found is from my clones is that they seem to take more nutes at a younger age , grow more vigourisly, yields are still same could be i maintain changing out lights more often even if they dont burn out could be the reason from plant growth meaning my plants seem to be near a nuclear plant at the speed they grow ) i also have found that flowering times seem to be faster then previous

now with that being said i am hereing all this turning hermie crap being that i cloned for a true mother plant i have kept lights off for 48 hrs then lights on for 18/6 i am telling you tryed every possible way to make a hermie and it will not happen

Click to expand...

Be happy, you have stable genetics.

Of course I am very very interested in this subject as it is the crux of everything I have been trying to do in the last couple of years. I am now on generation 7 with a single set of genetics with each plantlet being a cutting of the previous one. This originaly came from a mom that was 3 generations old. How long before I will need to refresh the genetics of my current plantlet? I don't know. Do I have to grow the plant out every few years or it will become aclimatized to it's current diet? I don't know. I do know that transcription errors do occur from time to time. Will those errors result in failure of the plant? I don't know. My tests are a microcosm of the real world though. 10 generations would ordinarily take some serious time where with me it has been about 30 weeks.

Jmayne Chronic said:

I see where your coming from here, but.....at what point would this be a bad thing? I mean what traits other than maybe height,or a bad mutation would be magnified and be nonbeneficial, personally on this grow I never have had anything other than carbon copies, but than again everyones experiance is different so you may be right.

Wolverine, I didnt say anything about your clones dying, I was just going over a common scenario I commonly hear about, and from what Ive done and seen they only keep the hermie genetics if the mother is not in a controlled environment ive done that process more than once on different strains,

Click to expand...

i concider it a good thing, i started with a qwerkle seed and it was nice, after doing this three or four times the plants were so purple, they were almost black in the leaves. also they got purple sooner, each time. stayed shorter and stockier each time and smelled more grapey each time

Wolverine97 said:

Fail. Don't talk to me anymore...

Click to expand...

Funny how yer utter lack of anything other than yer opinion constitutes a failure on my part.
You made a statement without offering anything more than an opinion.
I made a statement offering a differing opinion and at least put up a pic to somewhat show my case.
I asked politely for some pics hopefully to educate myself as I've been hearing this same line of shit for a decade now.
Like every other person you are unable to even attempt to show actual proof of something that you swear happens,happened to you and happens with regularity.
Something so fucking common that you took no pics at all,hell no body does apparently...............yet you get offended when asked to walk yer talk.
I don't understand.

taint said:

Funny how yer utter lack of anything other than yer opinion constitutes a failure on my part.
You made a statement without offering anything more than an opinion.
I made a statement offering a differing opinion and at least put up a pic to somewhat show my case.
I asked politely for some pics hopefully to educate myself as I've been hearing this same line of shit for a decade now.
Like every other person you are unable to even attempt to show actual proof of something that you swear happens,happened to you and happens with regularity.
Something so fucking common that you took no pics at all,hell no body does apparently...............yet you get offended when asked to walk yer talk.
I don't understand.

Click to expand...

Well I'm not going to start posting pics because random message board guy doesn't believe me, so...
What do you want me to say? I don't "walk my talk" because I choose not to post pictures on a pot forum? Mmmkay. I'm good with that.

I understand,stay safe and good luck.

I've read a study from a geneticist about cloning vegetables. He stated that it would take thousands of repeated cloning cycles from the same strain before noticeable effects were observed. Seeing as how most of us only get 3-4 harvests in a year, some maybe 6 or more, that it would take you a lifetime, and your son or daughter's lifetime, and their offspring's lifetime, before degradation of traits could be recorded. As far as I'm concerned, most of us can rest easy on this issue and keep cloning the same strain over and over until we die, if we are lucky. You can always make seeds if you don't believe science, and protect the traits without cloning.

those looking to do further research should Google "Genetic Drift botany horticulture plants"

You are not even in the same discussion as the original post of this thread.... no one is discussing the age of a mother plant...

svchop889 said:

keeping a single mother for two long was what decreased the quality of the clones I thought because the clone is as old as the mother it came from and If your cloning off of a plant that's been around for ages the quality will diminish because of the age of the mother.

Click to expand...

The clone is not the same age as the mother plant. it shares it's sexual maturity, a big difference....

That 5hit said:

the idea comes from the fact that
1 nothing lives forever
2 a clone is the same age of the plant that it is cloned from

over time the genetics will break down
like copying from a copy
if a plants is vegged for a year the you clone from it
that clone nomater the size is 1 year old
now keep doing this year after year

plants are geneticly made to live 1 season then die
but you have a genetic plant thats be around for 5-10 season in perpetural vegg
it is believed thats this alone will hurt the plant
outside of this i have no real proof that cloning from a clone does any harm

Click to expand...

redundent genes can and are activated by external factors
so yes it can go both ways
this is why if you give chickens the right proteins at the right stage it will de evolve and grow teeath and or scales <--- has been done
or a plant can hermie its activating those male genes that are redundent (im guessing)
and new vegitation im not sure but if you really wanna know go cut a tree down count the rings on the trunk and then count the rings on a branch
im betting its new im also guna bet that this is why trees can live so long also its only the outside new layers of a tree that are alive as in new
as for age in general genes tell things to age(unsure if this applys to plants as they may not use this during vegitation but autoflowers do)
one day we could live forever<--- not proven but suspected
just my 2 cents

p.s somebody said something about stem cells and dead babys/old ppl
stems cells have been coming from pigs for a long time yes human stem cells they needed a way to get them without using the fetusis so now they turm pigs into chimaras 2 sets of dna 1 human 1 pig this is not uncommon there are even humans that carry more then one set of dna they have been doing this for so long now they even know how to make a pig womb capable of gestating a human baby
spider silk from a goat top of my head

newbforlife said:

they even know how to make a pig womb capable of gestating a human baby

Click to expand...

so gross and so weird.

I think it's a 'best practice' to keep moms around and clone from moms rather than clone from clones and never keep moms around. However, I grow a 25+ year old clone-only strain and even after this many years, it's still a winner. I would think that to see any degradation over time, you'd have to be doing everything wrong, generation after generation.

I agree with ya there but in practice I very rarely keep moms...................we're still talking I hope.

homebrewer said:

I think it's a 'best practice' to keep moms around and clone from moms rather than clone from clones and never keep moms around. However, I grow a 25+ year old clone-only strain and even after this many years, it's still a winner. I would think that to see any degradation over time, you'd have to be doing everything wrong, generation after generation.

Click to expand...

Or a stressful event such as allowing a plant to begin flowering then reverting to veg and immediately flowering again.