Any Existing Evidence that Clones upon Clones Degrade Yield or Quality?

burninjay said:

Logic can explain/verify/disprove just about anything.

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actually logic can only make IF statements. You say IF i assume these axioms, then logic proves this. Logic can never be used to prove its own axioms. for instance there things that you assume that you cant prove in your statement.
Logic by itself isnt very useful; there MUST be guess work at the base of logic.

that being said my guess work is that clones eventually degrade, probably sometimes more than others, and in many cases it probably wouldnt be noticable. the axiom id sight is one of my all time favs entropy, seems to hold pretty well in my experience.

i was just looking back through the thread and saw a lot of people said genes couldn't change.... well cancer is when cell's genes mutate (maybe from exposure to uv or other radiation cuz america nuked your country) and they keep replicating uncontrollably and cause harm. so genes can definitely change even with out reproduction occuring. However, thats just why i believe its possible. Doesnt prove that cloning will degrade dna, or that keeping the same plant around would either... i think its inconclusive until its intelligently explored by science

It is intelligently explored by science. Research it outside the cannabis community. People who grow cannabis would greatly benefit from a strong botanical foundation as opposed to jumping into theory and supposition of ones with experienced which is then perpetuated by those without.

I am still producing World Class Bud off the 1st cutting i was given over 20 yrs ago.Last one is every bit as good as the 1st.

This is what I do as well. Longest I have kept a single Mom was 9 months. By then she was too big to really do anything with inside.
Cuttings from the 9 month old mom were just as good as the original. I had a cut only strain for several years. It wasn't much of producer but it was 1 hit and quit head stash. Kept it around for a long time then finally got rid of it to make room for new genetics about 12 years ago. My buddy still grows it and it's just as potent as ever, still doesn't produce shit though. I know for a fact that stuff is well over 20 years old.

I think if you take clones from old growth it's possible to see some "drift", but if your taking cuts from new shoots you should be fine. Someone previously posted something about cuttings of plants that were hundreds of years old and so I guess that answers the real question right there.

My buddy does tissue cultures and he swears by it, no bugs, no disease, perfect genetics. and small footprint in your grow space. I'm thinking about switching over to that soon.

I'm gonna do so research on cultures.Read a little a while back and it didnt seem to jump out as something amazing but I'll check it out again.

trickJames said:

This is what I do as well. Longest I have kept a single Mom was 9 months. By then she was too big to really do anything with inside.
Cuttings from the 9 month old mom were just as good as the original. I had a cut only strain for several years. It wasn't much of producer but it was 1 hit and quit head stash. Kept it around for a long time then finally got rid of it to make room for new genetics about 12 years ago. My buddy still grows it and it's just as potent as ever, still doesn't produce shit though. I know for a fact that stuff is well over 20 years old.

I think if you take clones from old growth it's possible to see some "drift", but if your taking cuts from new shoots you should be fine. Someone previously posted something about cuttings of plants that were hundreds of years old and so I guess that answers the real question right there.

My buddy does tissue cultures and he swears by it, no bugs, no disease, perfect genetics. and small footprint in your grow space. I'm thinking about switching over to that soon.

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Your buddy "does" or your buddy "plans to do"? I haven't seen a whole lot of people having great success with tissue culture without laboratory conditions and equipment.

My buddy runs a giant industrial grow in Denver with lab conditions. I work in the industry as well.

meowmix said:

Is there any evidence that clones upon clones degrade yield or quality? As many of you know, Stinkbud's system is reliant on this. He says he notices no difference, but I think he might migrate his strains a good bit (just assuming). Im doing a system without mothers so the clone generations add up pretty quick, evertyhing is clones of clones. I've heard this is bad, but I don't believe it. The only reason I can think of that would cause lesser quality etc is the stress while cloning/rooting.

Is there any evidence?

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I think you're right. Technically, a clone IS the mother----just re-rooted. I dont see why every generation should not be exactly as the orig mother. I mean, if you change nutes or light, you may change the outcome. But if everyting is the same...I think all future generations should be exactly like the orig Mom.


Or, I couyold be totally wrong. But, Im counting on being right, LOL.

CW

trickJames said:

This is what I do as well. Longest I have kept a single Mom was 9 months. By then she was too big to really do anything with inside.
Cuttings from the 9 month old mom were just as good as the original. I had a cut only strain for several years. It wasn't much of producer but it was 1 hit and quit head stash. Kept it around for a long time then finally got rid of it to make room for new genetics about 12 years ago. My buddy still grows it and it's just as potent as ever, still doesn't produce shit though. I know for a fact that stuff is well over 20 years old.

I think if you take clones from old growth it's possible to see some "drift", but if your taking cuts from new shoots you should be fine. Someone previously posted something about cuttings of plants that were hundreds of years old and so I guess that answers the real question right there.

My buddy does tissue cultures and he swears by it, no bugs, no disease, perfect genetics. and small footprint in your grow space. I'm thinking about switching over to that soon.

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Well, ya know....there's something to be said for keeping a BONSAI mom. Short, compact, each Mom in a Solo cup, fed as little as possible, under a LOW watt flo. Just barely enough light and nuites to stay alive....but when you need that strain again, move her into MH or HPS, wait for the stretch and cut as many babies as you need. Let one of them BE the next Bonsai Mom.

I have a 13 w. flo tube meant for under-cabinet lighting in a kitchen.... mounted atop a shelf in a bookcase. This is my Bonsai Mom space. I keep cloned females of fave strains under it, 16 hours a day, each in 12 oz Solo cups, Hempy. I only feed 1/4 strength veg nutes when dry. The low light and weak feed keeps the small plants alive, but small. When I n3eed one, I move her to the veg room, increase her feed and light....and VOILA! in 10 days, I have plenty of cuts.

The beauty of keeping these Bonsai Moms is obvious-- I can keep 10 or more Moms in a small space., none taller than 9 inches, all in 12 oz. Solo cups. Every time I choose one for a mom....I cur one extra clone to replace the Mom.

CW

hydrotech364 said:

I am still producing World Class Bud off the 1st cutting i was given over 20 yrs ago.Last one is every bit as good as the 1st.

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That's whhat Im talkin about! Theoritically, even 20 years later, you're growing the SAME plant. Literqally. The only diff is, you get to start the next plant with a small piece of the original. The new plant isnt "like" the mom...it IS THE MOM! Just trduced to a smaller size. This is the beauty part of cloning----once you fins the perfect pheno of the perfect strain, it CAN be yours FOREVER.

For instance, Im intrigued by the history of the Cinderella 99. According to the original breeders, the GRIM BROTHERS, this one incredible pheno appeared, weird and different from it's siblings....from a cross. Of some 150 or so plantas, this ONE werird child grew bigger, afaster and was done at 49 days. So, this ONE weirdo was used to produce the next generation of C-99. Again, of over 100 plants, SOME were the fast growing and early finishing phenos. A few. Most were not. That's the Way of Genetics.

But who can realistically be expected to keep ONE pheno alive, thru many generations of cut/clone?

Well....not Stoners! So, OF COURSE, the orig Cinereella died out. Now, the best any breeder CAN do is, breed the same Mom and Pop strains and WAIT (and pray!) for the SAME genetic accident that produced the original C-99.

The odds....are clearly against it. Still....it's ALL in the numbers. IF you produce huindrds of seeds from the mom and pop....you will eventually get that ONRE weird accident of Nature. the pheno that DOES produce more, bigger, faster. And that ONE pheno alone IS your true C-99.

However....the chances of any of us seed buyers actually lucking up and getting ONE of those super seeds? well.....bought any Lottery tickets lately?

sigh. genetics is....the Luck of the Draw.

Just like....if two parents have six kids. Even tho each kid has the same Mom and Pop's genes.....each kid will have a different combo of gene alignment. One kid might be ugly as a mud fence. Another may be beautiful. One may be exceptionally smart....and another an artist. It's all in the combo of genes, not the genes themselves.

Dont that suck?

LOL!

BUT, as Growers, we get to see many phenos of each strain we grow. Any pheno that is clearly superior....we CFAN re-veg and make clones of.

CW

svchop889 said:

keeping a single mother for two long was what decreased the quality of the clones I thought because the clone is as old as the mother it came from and If your cloning off of a plant that's been around for ages the quality will diminish because of the age of the mother.

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TRUE. BUT, that's becaue the one Mom is simply old. You can avoid this by making a NEW Mom, every generation. In other words, IF I cut 10 clones off one Mom, I let ONE of those cuttings BECOME the next Mom and compost the old one.

This gives me a perennial selection of BONSAI Moms of every strain I want to keep. There's NO need to ever have to have some huge 4 foot tall mom.....good grief! Just cdut your clones and replace the orig Mom with one of the cuttings. In a SOLO cup! 10 inches or less tall!


CW

meowmix said:

Is there any evidence that clones upon clones degrade yield or quality? As many of you know, Stinkbud's system is reliant on this. He says he notices no difference, but I think he might migrate his strains a good bit (just assuming). Im doing a system without mothers so the clone generations add up pretty quick, evertyhing is clones of clones. I've heard this is bad, but I don't believe it. The only reason I can think of that would cause lesser quality etc is the stress while cloning/rooting.

Is there any evidence?

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*im not gonna cut n paste some data tid-bit, heres what ive experienced.. been growing the same sat strain for over a decade, and i havent noticed any decreased in stats.

You cannot compare a plant's genetics to a human. If you take a clone it is an EXACT GENETIC DUPLICATE of the mother, able to produce the same quality as the mother.

genetic drift shouldnt be possible as no re-mixing of genes or new genes should be produced as cloning is a form of asexual reproduction. However, just like with cancer in humans, errors in cell replication can occur, and if they do they usually cause problems such as weird growth/death etc, it should be failrly rare though. Have heard of mj mothers living way beyond 20 years without any problem. As far as I can see the only issue with keeping a mother and not cloning and replacing her is that eventually they can become quite tough..almost like bark on a tree - which really isnt the best for cloning. Otherwise i cant see an issue.

ctoomuch said:

You cannot compare a plant's genetics to a human. If you take a clone it is an EXACT GENETIC DUPLICATE of the mother, able to produce the same quality as the mother.

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if one were to clone a human (if it was legal) then you would have an "exact genetic duplicate" of the human you'd taken the cell nucleus from. Plants and Humans can be compared at this level of genetics as it helps people to understand concepts, just as long as people realise that we aren't exactly the same i can't see the problem.

Not intended to be a factual statement

Funny movie but not conceptually accurate analogy because cloning isn't the same process, this is why only the cannabis community calls it cloning. The rest of the green thumb world refers to it as cuttings.


Now I wanna watch teh movie haha. I hope culturally it isn't one of the reasons people think of cloning as making copies on a printer haha

Metasynth said:

Not intended to be a factual statement

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I like pizza. I like it.

That part is true, it's just humans have a lot more variables in development.