1000 hps vs. 2x 400 hps?

mindphuk · Apr 5, 2009

Well, our method of energy acquisition is the chemical opposite of plants so you can use that as an analogy
Respiration is O2 + CHO -> H2O + CO2 + ATP (energy)
Photosynthesis is photons (energy) + CO2 + H2O -> O2 + CHO

So in my mind since respiration requires 'food' in the form of carbohydrates but is not the mechanism to feed the organism, then photosynthesis has to be the analog of respiration and not the digestive system, which has analogs a bit in the root, phloem/xylem assimilating and moving nutrients and water to be metabolized. In this way, the light component since it is a part of photosynthesis would not be considered food anymore than oxygen would be for people.

laserbrn · Apr 5, 2009

9inch bigbud said:
Laws of thermodynamics:

-1st Law of Thermodynamics: energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it can be changed.

-2nd Law of Thermodynamics: every time energy is changed from one form to another, some is lost, usually in the form of heat.

-Definition of energy: energy is the ability to do work or cause change. Work is defined as the movement of mass through space (change, therefore, results in the mass being in a new location).

-measurement of energy: in biological systems, the unit of measurement for energy is the calorie.

-calorie= the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water one degree centigrade, from 16 to 17 degrees. This unit is extremely small, so the common measure is a kilocalorie. Following the metric system where the prefix kilo means one-thousand, a kilocalorie is 1000 calories. This is commonly expressed as a Calorie (capital c calorie). This is the food calorie unit. Capitalization designates two different units, it is not a grammatical/spelling related. (Using metric logic, a kilocalorie is the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of 1000 grams of water one degree centigrade. 1000 grams of water is 1000 milliliters, is also 1 liter).

-The first Law of Thermodynamics means that energy is available in a flow, IT DOES NOT CYCLE! Energy is available, can be used, then it is dispersed in a less usable form, usually heat. Entropy refers to the process of energy being transferred from a concentrated to a more diffuse form..concentrated is basically usable, diffuse is non-usable, it is usually in the form of heat.

-Photosynthesis is the process of solar energy being captured by green plants. The biochemistry of the process of photosynthesis was a mystery that has been unraveled in steps over a period of decades. The equation for the reaction is simple, the mechanism is detailed (and is what has taken the time to determine). Written in chemical symbols shows the simplicity: CO2+H20 in the presence of light energy and chlorophyll>C6H12O6+H2O+O2. In words, the equation is stated: carbon dioxide and water in the presence of light energy and the pigment chlorophyll yields sugar, water and oxygen. (the equation written in chemical symbols is not balanced).

-An examination of the reactants and products of photosynthesis shows both the simplicity and importance of the process.

-Carbon forms the backbone of the energy-containing molecule produced in photosynthesis, a six-carbon sugar. Carbon is available from the atmosphere in the gaseous form of carbon dioxide.

-Water is the source of the hydrogen atoms needed to form the sugar molecule. Water is present in liquid form, as it is taken in through the roots of the plant.

-Light energy from the sun in the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum drives the process of photosynthesis. Energy in the 400-700 nanometer wavelengths, specifically blue and red wavelengths of visible light, is absorbed by the green plant pigment chlorophyll. This light energy is used to break the bonds of the reactants and is what is stored within the new bonds of the products as they capture electrons that have become activated by the light energy. There is no reaction without the chlorophyll pigment.

-The six-carbon sugar formed in photosynthesis is both a building block and final product within the plant. Some plants provide the sugar directly, others synthesize the sugar into larger/more complex molecules. For example, cellulose is a complex carbohydrate (a compound composed of the elements carbon, hydrogen and oxygen) made within the plant by combining the six-carbon chain into a longer chemical molecule.

This is such a trivial argument. You both make good points, but neither one of them relates to each other.

Adding a bigger light DOES increase yeilds. Adding a bigger light DOES increase the need for better envirnomental controls and if they aren't met the plants will suffer and probably die.

The point to this ridiuclous argument is that if you want bigger buds, use a bigger light. How much light you use is dictated by all of the environmental factors. Improve your environment and you can use a bigger light...

I think we all know this and you guys are just arguing for the sake of it. Well really only the poster saying that adding a bigger light DOES NOT increase yeild. You're clinging to such a small argument that any experienced grower already knows. You obviously can't run a 1000w light in a room that doesn't support it with airflow and proper cooling. You can't obviously grow great plants with a poor nutrient schedule, but none of those points are arguments that bigger lights dont' increase yeild. They're irrelevant points.

BCtrippin · Apr 5, 2009

You can quote google or wikki or whatever.. I know how photosynthesis works. It seems as if your not reading my posts.

9inch bigbud said:
plants will only grow as fast as their most limiting factor allows the limiting factor is light

This is EXACTLY what I just said and have been saying...

Its the wagon and the horse.

Light is like the wagon, it determines the potential. Environment and feeding (water + nutes) is the horse. The "driving factor". Without proper environment, air and nutes, then the light is useless...

I still think that your putting the wagon ahead of the horse. You can add lights, but if you dont have the environmental controls to handle the new light then its a waste of light. And if you dont have a proper feeding program it is again a waste of light.

Light is Not plant food. Sorry. Water/nutes + Air (mostly c02) + Light = plant food When properly processed by chlorophyll.

Light is a small part of the equation, A very important part of it as you couldnt grow without it, but still just 1 part.

9inch bigbud said:
-Photosynthesis is the process of solar energy being captured by green plants. The biochemistry of the process of photosynthesis was a mystery that has been unraveled in steps over a period of decades. The equation for the reaction is simple, the mechanism is detailed (and is what has taken the time to determine). Written in chemical symbols shows the simplicity: CO2+H20 in the presence of light energy and chlorophyll>C6H12O6+H2O+O2. In words, the equation is stated: carbon dioxide and water in the presence of light energy and the pigment chlorophyll yields sugar, water and oxygen. (the equation written in chemical symbols is not balanced).

Did you even bother to read all that stuff before you copy and pasted it?

It says it right there in your own post. Light is not plant food in any way at all actually. The light is like the "oven" thats used to cook the food. Not literally cook as there is not heat created, but the light is used to create the reaction in chlorophyll that processes c02 and water into sugars.

:peace:

Skeksis · Apr 5, 2009

I think mindphuk explained it the best so far.

But that still doesn't make me feel any better about going into that dark room alone to chop
that Michael Jackson plant. Thriller is playing right now and I hear scary sounds coming from in there.

EDit: Oh my gawwd it's moonwalking! Make it stop!!!

BCtrippin · Apr 5, 2009

laserbrn said:
This is such a trivial argument. You both make good points, but neither one of them relates to each other.

I wouldnt say its an argument. Why cant people have open conversation with differing opinions without someone butting trying to claim moral high ground and telling us to stop arguing.... :razz:

I just dont think lighting is the most important thing in a grow room, and I dont think light is plant food. Think what you want, thats fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

:peace:

laserbrn · Apr 5, 2009

BCtrippin said:
I wouldnt say its an argument. Why cant people have open conversation with differing opinions without someone butting trying to claim moral high ground and telling us to stop arguing....

I just dont think lighting is the most important thing in a grow room, and I dont think light is plant food. Think what you want, thats fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

It is an argument, it's you who sees argument as a negative term. My only point was that this particular argument/discussion is trivial because:

A) You aren't discussing the same topic, your arguing points that are irrelevant to the point of this thread. If you would like to start a new thread to discuss whether light or nutrients are "plant food" then this would at least make some sense.

B) You guys are discussing whether or not light is "plant food", but it's not. Not by the definition of "food". Look it up.

This is a pointless off topic discussion that doesn't belong on this thread.

Skeksis · Apr 5, 2009

I wasn't "claiming moral high ground". It just seemed that the arguing was getting out of hand and really
getting nowhere. So I intervened with a message of peace.

BCtrippin · Apr 5, 2009

laserbrn said:
It is an argument, it's you who sees argument as a negative term. My only point was that this particular argument/discussion is trivial because:

A) You aren't discussing the same topic, your arguing points that are irrelevant to the point of this thread. If you would like to start a new thread to discuss whether light or nutrients are "plant food" then this would at least make some sense.

B) You guys are discussing whether or not light is "plant food", but it's not. Not by the definition of "food". Look it up.

This is a pointless off topic discussion that doesn't belong on this thread.

Your right about one thing, light isnt plant food. But I wouldnt say its an argument. Call it what you want but it seems like your just butting in and posting even more useless crap. What does it matter to you what we talk about?

Im not trying to "argue" my opinions...Im just stating what I think, if someone disagrees I would like to hear what they have to say. I dont understand where you come in and see a problem with that?

Maybe you should read the whole thread, word for word before showing up and butting in while trying to claim the moral high ground. :lol:

This is getting ridiculous.

:peace:

9inch bigbud · Apr 5, 2009

grow a plant in only 1/2 strenth nutes under 400w and grow the same plant with the same 1/2 strenth nutes under 1000w and come back and tell me what grows the most bud. saying plant nutes are a plants food does not make sense when you look at it like that. when we eat to much we get fat when a plant eats more light it gets fatter than the same plant grown with only 1/2 strenth nutes = the real food you are feeding the plant is light, every thing else you give it just helps it to grow. plants can grow well with very little nutes very little water and normal co2 levels it can not grow with out light! if you dont eat and drink you will die so when you look at it like that light is the plants food if you stop giving it light it will die the same as you if you stopped eating.
light is the 1# most important thing in a grow room with out it its just a room with seeds and nutes in it.

@ BC im not aguing are you? i call it a debate 8-)

9inch bigbud · Apr 5, 2009

mindphuk said:
Well, our method of energy acquisition is the chemical opposite of plants so you can use that as an analogy
Respiration is O2 + CHO -> H2O + CO2 + ATP (energy)
Photosynthesis is photons (energy) + CO2 + H2O -> O2 + CHO

So in my mind since respiration requires 'food' in the form of carbohydrates but is not the mechanism to feed the organism, then photosynthesis has to be the analog of respiration and not the digestive system, which has analogs a bit in the root, phloem/xylem assimilating and moving nutrients and water to be metabolized. In this way, the light component since it is a part of photosynthesis would not be considered food anymore than oxygen would be for people.

where do we get energy from? food
where do plants get energy from? photons from the light = energy = food

energy is food

OregonMeds · Apr 5, 2009

9inch bigbud said:
where do we get energy from? food
where do plants get energy from? photons from the light = energy = food

energy is food

Light is the energy that processes the food but it's not at all food in itself.

Silly argument.

mindphuk · Apr 5, 2009

9inch bigbud said:
where do we get energy from? food
where do plants get energy from? photons from the light = energy = food

energy is food

Yes, and food=energy + nutrients

I was merely pointing out an attempt at an admittedly imperfect analogy.

First of all, except for carnivorous species, plants don't eat, so 'food' isn't an accurate term for either nutrients or light since food is specifically a term used to as the substance that provides energy and nutrients in the animal kingdom.

Second, calling fertilizer 'plant food' has been a misnomer since day one, so it's just as wrong to call light food as well. Can we move on now and get back OT?

laserbrn · Apr 5, 2009

mindphuk said:
Yes, and food=energy + nutrients

I was merely pointing out an attempt at an admittedly imperfect analogy.

First of all, except for carnivorous species, plants don't eat, so 'food' isn't an accurate term for either nutrients or light since food is specifically a term used to as the substance that provides energy and nutrients in the animal kingdom.

Second, calling fertilizer 'plant food' has been a misnomer since day one, so it's just as wrong to call light food as well. Can we move on now and get back OT?

I see the problem. Both of you think you know the definition of "food", but you're just making it up instead of LOOKING it up.

9inch bigbud · Apr 5, 2009

OregonMeds said:
Light is the energy that processes the food but it's not at all food in itself.

Silly argument.

when you give somthing more food what happens? they/ it grows bigger stronger fatter. what happens when you give a plant to much nutes? it dies calling plant nutrients plant food is not correct the more of it you give does not make it grow any faster bigger giving it more light does = the food you give to a plant is light every thing else helps it to grow.

calling somthing food that does not make somthing get Overweight if you give it to much does not make sense? i.e plant food giving it more = death to the plant and it will not grow any faster. if you eat 20 big macs a day you will get fat thats the effects of to much food giving the plant to much nutes does not make it fat the light makes it fat thats why the true food you give a plant is light if you give it more it will grow bigger faster stronger the less light you give it the weeker sicker the plant will become it makes sense if you think about it.

plants are not human but if you think of them as being human then light is the food the more of it you give the more overweight it will get.

mindphuk · Apr 5, 2009

laserbrn said:
I see the problem. Both of you think you know the definition of "food", but you're just making it up instead of LOOKING it up.

any substance that can be metabolized by an animal to give energy and build tissue
any solid substance (as opposed to liquid) that is used as a source of nourishment; "food and drink"
anything that provides mental stimulus for thinking
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Food is any substance, usually composed primarily of carbohydrates, fats, water and/or proteins, that can be eaten or drunk by an animal or human for nutrition or pleasure. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food

AFAIK, plant food is a lay term and will be found in some dictionaries but would not used in any serious horticulture discussions or papers. Nutrients or even fertilizer is more precise. If you want to be technical, then CO2 would have to be considered food also because it is an actual substance (as opposed to photons) taken in by the plant as nourishment.

smoke and coke · Apr 5, 2009

just a copy and paste

Making Food

What is photosynthesis?
Photosynthesis is the process by which plants make food from light, water, nutrients, and carbon dioxide. What is chlorophyll?
Chlorophyll is the green pigment, or color, found in plants that helps the plant make food. Plants are very important to us. All food people eat comes directly or indirectly from plants.

Directly from plants:

Indirectly from plants:

For example, apples come from an apple tree. The flour used to make bread comes from a wheat plant.

Steak comes from a cow, and we all know that cows are animals, not plants, right? But what does the cow eat? It eats grass and grainsPLANTS!

So all the foods we eat come from plants. But what do plants eat? They make their own food!
What Do Plants Need to Make Food?

Plants need several things to make their own food.

They need:

chlorophyll, a green pigment found in the leaves of plants (see the layer of chlorophyll in the cross-section of a leaf below)

<LI class=regtext>light (either natural sunlight or artificial light, like from a light bulb)

<LI class=regtext>carbon dioxide (CO2)(a gas found in the air; one of the gases people and animals breathe out when they exhale)

<LI class=regtext>water (which the plant collects through its roots)
nutrients and minerals (which the plant collects from the soil through its roots)

Plants make food in their leaves. The leaves contain a pigment called chlorophyll, which colors the leaves green. Chlorophyll can make food the plant can use from carbon dioxide, water, nutrients, and energy from sunlight. This process is called photosynthesis.

During the process of photosynthesis, plants release oxygen into the air. People and animals need oxygen to breathe.

Disclaimer/Credits

thought i would throw this in there too. and yes another copy and paste. both say the same thing.

Plants need energy to grow, to replace worn out cells, to get rid of waste, and to reproduce. All organisms get energy from food. Photosynthesis is the process by which plants make food. Only plants can make food.
In this process carbon dioxide and water combine in the presence of light to form sugar, a food. Stomates are found in layers of protective cells on the surface of the leaf. Gases move in and out of stomates. These openings connect to large air spaces in the middle layer of the leaf. Carbon dioxide in the middle layer of the leaf is available to the food-making cells of the leaf. Xylem in the vein carries water to the food-making cells. The water comes from the roots and the root hairs which are in the ground.
You can think of a chloroplast as a food factory. Carbon dioxide and water are the raw materials that go into the factory. Sunlight is the energy that changes the raw materials into the product, food in the form of sugar.
Photosynthesis is a complex process. A series of chemical reactions change the raw materials to the food product. The process can be shown simply by looking at the starting materials and the end products.

WATER + CARBON DIOXIDE + ENERGY ---> SUGAR + OXYGEN

Respiration is the process by which plants discard the materials that they don't use. For example, in photosynthesis, when plants take in cardon dioxide, they let out oxygen, which is what we breathe. This is how we always have fresh air.

Source:
Science Horizons. Morriston, N. J. Silver Burdett Ginn. 1993.

9inch bigbud · Apr 5, 2009

another look at it LOL

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Sun Food is the Best Food
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]by Dr. Richard DeAndrea
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The sun provides the only form of energy that does not have waste. The sun gives us electricity through solar panels and even gives us vitamins through our skin. Unlike oil, coal, and nuclear power, sunlight does not give off a toxic exhaust. Sunlight is the ultimate form of energy. Light is so perfect the Bible talks about God having a glow like the sun. Jesus was surrounded in light and Moses had a beautiful light coming from his eyes after he left the great Mt. Sanai. The sun gives life to all creatures on the planet. Plants, animals, and humans need the sun to live.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]As sunlight showers upon the earth it causes many things to grow. The sun gives rise to a beautiful fruit tree and also warms the heart of Farmer Bob and his cow.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The fruit trees represent any vegetation giving rise to food we can eat. The tree, in this case, gives us apples. All fruits, nuts, and vegetables come from plants or trees. Trees are sun nets and act like a sunbrella. When the sun shines on them they trap the light and produce little packages we can eat. Fruits and vegetables are nothing more than edibles forms of light energy (SOEF's).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Farmer Bob was very skeptical of this idea, so one day he decided to perform a test. He took an apple from a tree and buried it in the ground. He watered the spot and checked on it for several days. One day he saw a miracle. The apple had given life to a little sprout. After many months the sprout became a baby tree and eventually gave the farmer apples. The apple, Farmer Bob planted contained enough light energy to create more life.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Farmer Bob, representing all of mankind, was not satisfied with this miracle. He was determined to prove all things contained the energy to give more life. So, he cornered Bessy, his long time friend, cut off her head and buried it in the ground.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]After several days Bessy's left over carcass had become infected and swollen. Where Farmer Bob buried Bessy's head there was no sign of life. Several months later, the farmer returned to the spot to find Bessy's carcass had decomposed and assumed the same happened to her head. No New Bessy![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The farmer went home to think about the test. He finally realized the apple was alive with the energy of light and Bessy's light left her the moment she died. The farmer told his friends about the result of his experiment exclaiming, "it's true, fruits, nuts and vegetables are full of life and meat is dead." His friends thought he was confused and replied, "Bob have you been talking to those crazy vegetarians at the organic farm again?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The moral of the story is, if we eat dead animals and cooked and processed foods then we are getting closer to death. If we eat fruits, nuts, and vegetables in their raw uncooked state, they fill us with the light of life. The human body, mind, and soul is a sort of battery that requires charging on a regular basis. Farmer Bob discovered for himself the secret source to recharge his lifeforce. Farmer Bob has given up his factory farm and is now a strict vegetarian growing and eating mostly raw/organic fruits, nuts, and vegetables. He is now enjoying the greatest level of health he has ever known and feels more connected to God, the earth, and the web of life.[/FONT]

mindphuk · Apr 5, 2009

smoke and coke said:
just a copy and paste

Making Food
snip-------

Source:
Science Horizons. Morriston, N. J. Silver Burdett Ginn. 1993.

Well, that makes sense in the best technical sense is that they make their own food. Animals evolved to acquire food since we cannot make our own. So I still maintain it's not appropriate to call any of one of those things food, as food is a by-product of the photosynthesis and is a combination of nutrients, CO2 and water.

BCtrippin · Apr 5, 2009

mindphuk said:
Well, that makes sense in the best technical sense is that they make their own food. Animals evolved to acquire food since we cannot make our own. So I still maintain it's not appropriate to call any of one of those things food, as food is a by-product of the photosynthesis and is a combination of nutrients, CO2 and water.

Very well said.

:peace:

bicycle racer · Apr 5, 2009

if you plant something in some soil any plant and weigh the soil before any growth and then weigh the soil again at harvest aside from roots water etc.. the soil will be the same weight no resonable change where as an animal has to ingest matter to survive. ferts and other supps are like vitamins and minerals for people they help biological proceses but give little or no calories(units of energy) for plants light is the component needed for them to access there 'food' which is the 'c' in co2 carbon. that is where a plants biomass comes from so without adequate light no plant will exist they need light to be able to use the carbon in the air to build themselves with.

1000 hps vs. 2x 400 hps?

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