1000 hps vs. 2x 400 hps?

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
This is getting stupid. Saying that plants would die without the sun is absolutely pointless. We all know this, but that doesnt make the sun food in any way.

By comparison your saying that oxygen is food, water is food, or anything required to sustain life is food....Sorry. Wrong again.

Someone actually said oxygen is not a source of energy for animals....? What exactly do you think oxygen does for us? Try living withut it....wont work, but doesnt make it food.


Without oxygen Life couldn't exist. Without H20 Life Couldnt Exist on Earth. Without Carbon Life Couldnt Exist on Earth.

So does that mean H20, o2 and Carbon are food???? No It Does Not.


Food PROVIDES energy. It isnt the Energy itself.

Since this is getting nowhere I am going to post the DEFINITION of Food by Websters Dictionary.

Food

Noun

1. Any substance that can be metabolized by an organism to give energy and build tissue.
2. Any solid substance (as opposed to liquid) that is used as a source of nourishment; "food and drink".
3. Anything that provides mental stimulus for thinking.


I think its pretty clear. Light is Not a substance that can be metabolized. Light is Not a solid substance used for nourishment, and light does Not provide plants with any mental stimulus for thinking... (ie. "food for thought")


:peace:
 

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
And just for fun I looked up the definition of Plant Food.

Plant Food

Noun

1. Any substance such as manure or a mixture of nitrates used to make soil more fertile.



....nothing about light being plant food in Websters Dictionary.


:peace:
 

9inch bigbud

Well-Known Member
And just for fun I looked up the definition of Plant Food.

Plant Food

Noun

1. Any substance such as manure or a mixture of nitrates used to make soil more fertile.



....nothing about light being plant food in Websters Dictionary.


:peace:
if you cant see that energy if food for living things and light is energy = food needed to make photosynthesis :roll: must be all the things you go on about light not being the 1# most important thing in the grow room, if you cant see that it is the most important thing then you will never get light being plant food will you? just go away *waves bye bye*
 

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
if you cant see that energy if food for living things and light is energy = food needed to make photosynthesis :roll: must be all the things you go on about light not being the 1# most important thing in the grow room, if you cant see that it is the most important thing then you will never get light being plant food will you? just go away *waves bye bye*
Dude. Your the ONLY one who thinks light is plant food. Talk to a botanist or anyone who knows what they are talking about.

By definition Light can NOT be Food. Sorry bro.


Not only are you wrong...You didnt start the thread...so telling me to "go away" is a pretty weak argument.

I think your last post pretty much reveals how weak your argument is that light is food. Theres just nothing there other then your personal opinions.


Im not trying to be an ass or anything. Just trying to separate Facts from Personal opinions. Fact is, Light isnt plant food in any way, shape, or form.


:peace:
 

laserbrn

Well-Known Member
if you cant see that energy if food for living things and light is energy = food needed to make photosynthesis :roll: must be all the things you go on about light not being the 1# most important thing in the grow room, if you cant see that it is the most important thing then you will never get light being plant food will you? just go away *waves bye bye*
He's too thick. I like how he FINALLY looked up the definition of food and threw it out there like YOU are the wrong one. You're both wrong from a TECHNICAL standpoint of the definition of "food". If you were to take it one step and say food = energy for living things and agree upon THAT fact then you can make the connection that LIGHT = FOOD for plants.

I don't really know anyone that disagrees that light is the #1 factor in a grow room. That's fairly obvious. The greatest challenges the environment poses are generally caused by the light, so YES a better environment grows better bud, but assuming you aren't a dillweed and you're going to control your environment, hands down it's the light.

I guess the only reason I'm even jumping in and out of this topic is because I'm bored, and this is a completely worthless conversation (therefore a great way to WASTE time).

A 1000W light grows bigger fuller, faster, fatter buds than a 400w or 2 400w's for the matter.

And juding by the experience of someone with 2 grow rooms that runs 2x 600w lights in one room and 1 1000w light in the other, over the course of multiple grows the 1000w outperforms the 600w's.

God I miss the days now when the conversations were at least relevant. Where is TeaTreeOil on this one to bust out all of the charts and worthless animations showing that light is additive and trying to prove that 2 600w's COULD be better than 1 1000w? At least it would be on topic and to his credit, a bit more interesting than this one.

You're a better man than I 9". I think you've made your point perfectly clear. Although I have to disagree with the technical definition of the word "food", I clearly understand your point and what you are trying to convey. +rep.
 

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
Also I think your getting a lot of words confused. Like Important and Necessary. Light is absolutely a #1 necessity in a grow room. But not the #1 most important part of a grow room.

Also I have always stated this as Personal Opinion. You dont have to agree.


:peace:
 

laserbrn

Well-Known Member
Also I think your getting a lot of words confused. Like Important and Necessary. Light is absolutely a #1 necessity in a grow room. But not the #1 most important part of a grow room.

Also I have always stated this as Personal Opinion. You dont have to agree.


:peace:
This isn't an opinion based topic. Light is definitely #1. That's my statement of fact, not opinion.

What would you say is the #1 most important part of a grow room?
 

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
This isn't an opinion based topic. Light is definitely #1. That's my statement of fact, not opinion.

What would you say is the #1 most important part of a grow room?
Hahah, yes it is absolutely an opinion based topic. Everyone has their own opinion and too often people dont define between personal opinion and facts.

It may be your personal opinion that light is plant food. But its a fact that it is not. If you want to get technically, plants basically create their own food.

Anyway, I have already stated what I think is the most important part of a grow room. Environment. The reason I think Environment is more important than lighting is because it doenst matter how much lights you add if you dont manage the environment in a grow room.

Not only can you add more lights without problems one you manage environment, you wont have issues with mold/mildew, you have less chance of bugs, and you can actually grow GOOD weed.


I don't really know anyone that disagrees that light is the #1 factor in a grow room. That's fairly obvious. The greatest challenges the environment poses are generally caused by the light, so YES a better environment grows better bud, but assuming you aren't a dillweed and you're going to control your environment, hands down it's the light.
This could go both ways. I could say assuming your not a dillweed and your going to put a light over your plants then the Environment is more important.

But I think any experienced grower knows it takes a LOT more to properly maintain environment (temp, RH, airflow, c02) then it is to put up lights and plug them into a timer...

Again, its my opinion, if you dont agree I dont really care.


:peace:
 

laserbrn

Well-Known Member
The best analogy I can think of is a drag car.

In this analogy we are stating the engine is the most important part of a car for improving timeslips.

If can either run a 200hp motor or a 500hp motor...obviously running the 500hp motor is the better choice if you want to improve timeslips.

The problem is that the car has to be ready for a major upgrade in horsepower. Stronger tranny, chassis stiffness, control arms, etc. to facilitate this new power in order to efficiently UTILIZE that power.

The same goes for grow rooms. A 1000w light is better than a 600w light, but yes your grow room must be setup to facilitate this increase in lighting to work efficiently.

If the question is wheter a 1000w light that is in a poor environment will grow as much as a 600w in a proper environment, probably not. Probably won't grow anything just like a 500hp car that came with a 200hp motor. Without some significant upgrades it won't make it down the track.

So when it comes to what makes plant grow faster, bigger, better....The lights.

But with each increase in lighting comes an increase in the challenge of getting the light to work properly in the space.

It's still the light that does the growing though. You'll never put the same kinda bud with CFL's as someone with a 1000w HID, assuming both of have setup their environment properly.

And it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. 1000w light's grow more bud than 600s, then 400s, etc.

Just because the 1000w has higher requirements to maintain the environment doesn't mean the FACT that a 1000w light will grow plants better than 600w isn't true. It's absolutely true.
 

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
But with each increase in lighting comes an increase in the challenge of getting the light to work properly in the space.

And it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. 1000w light's grow more bud than 600s, then 400s, etc.
Thanks tips....Its funny because this is Exactly what I have been saying. :clap:

Obviously a bigger light or more lights will yield more if set up right..


But your analogy is flawed. You cant upgrade the "engine" without upgrading everything else first. So what exactly makes the engine the most important part of a car? Some people would argue the wheels are more important because you can have all the power in the world but if you dont have traction its useless. :lol::lol:

Just because the 1000w has higher requirements to maintain the environment doesn't mean the FACT that a 1000w light will grow plants better than 600w isn't true. It's absolutely true.
...Wow. Thanks for enlightening us.


:peace:
 

9inch bigbud

Well-Known Member
INTRODUCTION TO LIGHTING Lights & Plants
Plant growth, harvest, potency and even the time to flower are all dependent on the light they receive. Light quality, intensity and duration are all important. The following is a brief introduction to plants, light, lumens and PAR.
Light is a plants food, nutrients are only building blocks for the plant cells but it is light that provides the energy - so how does it work?
When light falls onto leaves it triggers the process of photosynthesis, which in simple terms is the process of turning light, which is radiant energy, into chemical energy. The amazing process of photosynthesis, turning light energy into chemical energy, is one of nature’s wonders. This energy transfer happens inside the plants cell structures called chloroplasts. The basic components of chloroplasts are individual membranous sacs which contain fats, proteins and pigments (stay with us - it is worth knowing!)
Pigments & Chemical Energy
Pigments play an important part. They absorb light in the photosynthesis process of turning light energy into chemical energy. Chlorophyll, for example, is an important pigment which absorbs red and blue wave lengths. There are different types of pigment and each absorbs different wavelengths of light. The light absorbed by the pigment causes a reaction, which produces chemical energy (it makes electrons out of the light, and the electrons use their charges to make sugar energy for the plant)
For those interested in the current theory of photosynthesis, it works something like this ~
The chemical energy produced by the chlorophyll (pigment) from light is sufficient to split the water molecules apart. This provides units of hydrogen (H) and hydroxide (OH). The hydroxide combines with carbon-dioxide, which is absorbed from the air, to produce carbohydrates, which provides the energy for plant growth. (and you thought there was nothing going on in your plants ~ for more details visit your library!)
So to summarise ~ light falls on the leaves which convert it into electrons and the plant uses these electrons (electricity) to make energy as sugar.

Light & Light Measurment
Light, its intensity, quality, its colour, spectrum, wavelength are therefore all-important factors, but how do we measure light and what are the most important components?
Light is measured in photons (which we, or at least I, do not really understand). Light actually hits objects, just like a spray of water, and the sun emits lots of light photons ~ to give you an idea of how many; the sun hits our body with over 12,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 photons every second and a plant needs about 20 photons to make a finished molecule of sugar.
So our scientists can count the number of photons hitting the plant and even predict how much of this energy will convert into flowers or fruits. Each industry has its own way of measuring light. Photographers use a light meter, the lighting industry uses lumens or lux and the gardening industry uses PAR. All are only measurements; the actual light coming from a lamp or the sun does not change ~ only the methods we use to measure are different.

Light Spectrums & Colours

Light from the sun is ideal but it is not the same as artificial light, where output quality, spectrum etc varies upon the type of lamp and how it is used. Many growers think that more lumens = better growth / yields, when in fact artificial light, even at its best in a HID or HPS lamp in not so good in terms of colours. Much of the light from the bulb is not used by the plant, mainly because it is not in the 400 to 700 nw (nanawave) spectrum, and plants can only see and use light in this range. Light quality and its colours are as important as lumens.
Light, as seen by plants is not a single colour but separate bands of active colours and the plant senses each colour-band of light as a separate signal. Each band of colour has a different effect on plants and the following are only a few of the functions which each band of light promotes.
Blue Light (350 – 500 NW) powers chlorophyll production, powers cell actively, energies the stomata movement and makes the plant follow light.
Green / Yellow Light (500 – 650 nw) ~ not much action from these bands of light.
Red Light (600 – 700 NW) makes sugar from CO2, powers chloroplast production, signals light and dark times among other functions.
Strong blue and red light photons (as above) are also needed for good carbon dioxide uptake.
The PAR scale measures all these coloured photons between 400nw & 700nw, the critical range for plants, as this is only range that plants can use light. If it is not in this range then it is wasted light.

PAR

For growers PAR is all-important ~ and as important as lumens! PAR stands for > Photosynthetic Active Radiation. Photosynthetic, the light sensed by a leaf pigment. Active, the light that causes the leaf pigment to become active for making energy Radiation, another word for light & photon energy
PAR is a measurement scale used internationally as a metric light measurement and is becoming more and more relevant to growing and greenhouse light measurement. Why is it important to you? PAR is the measure of light that a plant actually senses and uses, and it is the light the plant sees and can use that is more important then the actual output lumen of the grow lamp!
* A large HID lamp may give out loads of lumens, but if it is too far away from your plant most are wasted (remember light intensity diminishes with distance) In addition the light a plant can use from these lamps is limited because the plant cannot see or use it because it is in the wrong spectrum.
So the main value of the PAR measurement is that it is the only measure that takes into account the actual light and light colours that the plant uses to energise its pigments and generate sugar energy, and it’s the sugar that makes your plants grow and produce such sweet fruits!

PAR and Fluorescent Lamps

In the past fluorescent lamps were always known to have excellent "daylight" colour output but not the same photon power as HID / HPS lamps. The spectrum from fluorescents was ideal for propagation/seedlings but not for real time growing, because they were small watt versions and did not have the lumen / photon output. (i.e. an average household fluorescent tube is only about 35 watts. Nice spectrum but low light output! )
HID and HPS lamps have large lumen / photon output but are poor on colours omitted, but these lamps were the best available lamps at the time. However they do generate lots of heat and can be expensive to operate. They also need separate ballasts, control contacts and systems.
Plantagrow CFL Lamps (CFL=Compact Fluorescent Lamps)
The development of high-output compact fluorescent means you can now get the correct colour spectrum, always associated with fluorescents, but with much higher light output. This means that CFLs are now capable of much, much higher lumen output with all the benefits of the ideal, spectrum output.
Photon strength is still not as strong as HID Lamps (although with our new reflectors we are getting there) but because these new lamps generate much less heat they can be placed just inches of the leaves, and this is a very, very important factor when using grow lamps

Light Intensity
Light intensity diminishes the further it has to travel. This is the same for HID, CFL or your normal household lamp. If you hold a light meter up close to any lamp and then slowly lower the meter, even a few inches, you will see the light measurement reduces dramatically. (If you can borrow, beg, steal or get access to a light meter please try this ~ you will be extremely surprised at the rate at which the light intensity reduces over a short distance)
Light from an HID or HPS lamp reduces by half for every foot it is away from the plants. So if your lamps are 2’ or 3’ above your plants much of the light is wasted. The problem with HID lamps is they are so hot you cannot place them close to your plants and much of the light, and your money, is wasted.
One benefit of using high-out put CFL’s is that they do not generate as much heat and can be kept almost on top of the plants producing the exact 100% PAR light, with no loss of intensity. So if you position these new lamps close to the leaves you get the benefit of 100% PAR light in the correct 400nw to 700nw range, giving the plant the correct light colours and light quality.

Growing With Plantagrows
Plantagrows can be used to grow seeds and to propagate cuttings. They can also be used as the main lighting system for plants in the vegetative and flowering stages. The secret to growing with Plantagrows is to position your lamp or reflector just an inch or two above your plants.
(We use Easy-Roll Reflector Hangers and adjust the reflector height a small amount each day or so. We keep our Envitolites no more than 1" above the plant top.) Positioning these new compact lights directly above the plants maintains light intensity, no lumens are lost and the PAR / Spectrum is 100%, which is like natural sunlight. The plants get all the lumens they need with the light being in the correct spectrum.
Plantagrows are available in 2 models: Red 2700k (kelvin) and White 6400k (kelvin)
Red 2700k 125w lamps are used mostly for flowering. Many growers also use these lamps as a supplement to ‘hang’ by the side or in between plants when flowering. They can be used with HPS lamps, as a supplement or by themselves. We use them 100% and no longer use HPS lamps.
White / blue 6100k 125w lamps can be used for propagation and vegetative growth.
Some red light in the vegetative light mix is also recommended, as is a little white / blue light in the flowering mix. With different combinations of red and white lamps growers can obtain the ideal lumen output and spectrum required for excellent results in all stages of growing.
Plantagrows provide 100% PAR, which is such an important factor and it is important to be able to calculate the PAR values obtained from your grow lights and how much light your plants need to give maximum yield. If you are using HID / HPS lamps you should contact your supplier and ask them about PAR output, it is important that you know this as well as lumen output.
These brief notes are to only give you a very brief introduction into how plants work, how light is measured in horticultural world and the importance of PAR as well as lumens. I hope it stimulates you to learn a little more about lights, plants, pigment, PAR and produce!

Plantagrow Summary
Plantagrows are effective, energy-saving, reliable, low heat generating horticultural grow lamps, giving excellent results and lower operating costs for all indoor growers.
Plants need light in the correct spectrum, which is proven to be between 400 & 700 Nana Wave, and Plantagrows produce high output light in exactly this spectrum. There is no wasted light, unlike HID and HPS lamps were much of the light cannot even be seen or used by the plant.
Plantagrows give 100% PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) high output light and are used successfully for all propagation, vegetative or flowering stages.
Plantagrows do not generate excessive heat and can be used directly over plants. This is the secret of growing with Plantagrows, positioned directly above, just 3 cm or 4 cm, the top of the plants! Unlike HID lamps, this new generation, grow lamps will not burn your plants.
This is a real advantage compared to growing with HID lamps, as there is no wasted light, which occurs when HID lamps are positioned high above plants. Plantagrows give 100 % PAR, correct spectrum, high lumen light directly on top of your plants - where they need it!
• Self Ballasting Lamps - simple to install or wire
• 100 % PAR in the correct spectrum for growing
• Generates much less heat than HID Lamps
• Energy saving lamps give lower operating costs
• High Lumen Output ~ Long Life Operation

125W and 200W Plantagrow are available in 2 models:
* 6100K Propagation & vegetative growing
* 2700K Flowering stage growing
* We are currently waiting for the independent results of a technical research program carried out by Sheffield University on comparisons (lumen, PAR, spectrum output, heat generation, operating costs etc) with HID / HPS lamps. The same research will monitor grow results using both types of lamps. We are extremely confident that the results of this research will surprise many growers and confirm that Plantagrow / CFL lamps which provide high-output lumens with 100% PAR will become the next generation of light systems for all growers.
We hope these brief notes have given you an insight into light and how plants see and use it. PAR is all-important and is becoming the measurement used by growers worldwide. For those of you interested in learning more about lights and PAR I suggest you purchase Graham Reinders book ‘The Secrets of High Yield Plants’.


http://www.plantagrow.com/privacy.php
 

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
Your confusing an Analogy with Facts. Why dont you go open your dictionary and look it up.

Analogy ie. Light is like a plants food.

Does not mean light is a plants food.

This is getting kinda funny, Lets keep it friendly, why not start up a new thread with a poll? :razz:


:peace:
 

9inch bigbud

Well-Known Member
Your confusing an Analogy with Facts. Why dont you go open your dictionary and look it up.

Analogy ie. Light is like a plants food.

Does not mean light is a plants food.

This is getting kinda funny, Lets keep it friendly, why not start up a new thread with a poll? :razz:


:peace:
When light falls onto leaves it triggers the process of photosynthesis, which in simple terms is the process of turning light, which is radiant energy, into chemical energy. The amazing process of photosynthesis, turning light energy into chemical energy, is one of nature’s wonders. This energy transfer happens inside the plants cell structures called chloroplasts. The basic components of chloroplasts are individual membranous sacs which contain fats, proteins and pigments (stay with us - it is worth knowing!)
Pigments & Chemical Energy
Pigments play an important part. They absorb light in the photosynthesis process of turning light energy into chemical energy. Chlorophyll, for example, is an important pigment which absorbs red and blue wave lengths. There are different types of pigment and each absorbs different wavelengths of light. The light absorbed by the pigment causes a reaction, which produces chemical energy (it makes electrons out of the light, and the electrons use their charges to make sugar energy for the plant)
For those interested in the current theory of photosynthesis, it works something like this ~
The chemical energy produced by the chlorophyll (pigment) from light is sufficient to split the water molecules apart. This provides units of hydrogen (H) and hydroxide (OH). The hydroxide combines with carbon-dioxide, which is absorbed from the air, to produce carbohydrates, which provides the energy for plant growth. (and you thought there was nothing going on in your plants ~ for more details visit your library!)
So to summarise ~ light falls on the leaves which convert it into electrons and the plant uses these electrons (electricity) to make energy as sugar.
facts are there for you like iv been trying to say all allong
 

9inch bigbud

Well-Known Member
define : photosynthesis
photo - light: radiant energy
synthesis - the process of producing a chemical compound (usually by the union of simpler chemical compounds)

put them together what do you get? photosynthesis
Photosynthesis is a metabolic pathway that converts light energy into chemical energy. Its initial substrates are carbon dioxide and water; the energy source is sunlight (electromagnetic radiation); and the end-products are oxygen and (energy-containing) carbohydrates, such as sucrose, glucose ...
 

BCtrippin

Well-Known Member
For those interested in the current theory of photosynthesis, it works something like this ~
The chemical energy produced by the chlorophyll (pigment) from light is sufficient to split the water molecules apart. This provides units of hydrogen (H) and hydroxide (OH). The hydroxide combines with carbon-dioxide, which is absorbed from the air, to produce carbohydrates, which provides the energy for plant growth. (and you thought there was nothing going on in your plants ~ for more details visit your library!)
So to summarise ~ light falls on the leaves which convert it into electrons and the plant uses these electrons (electricity) to make energy as sugar.
Are you reading this stuff? The chemical energy produced by the chlorophyll the light just powers the reaction to split the water molecules, The Hydroxide combines with the Carbon in the Air to produce Carbohydrates (sugars) which is the food.

So to summarise ~ light falls on the leaves which convert it into electrons and the plant uses these electrons (electricity) to make energy as sugar.

There it is in your own post. Plants use the Light to Make their own food. Light is not the plants food, if anything Carbon and Hydroxide is the plants food.


:peace:
 

9inch bigbud

Well-Known Member
Are you reading this stuff? The chemical energy produced by the chlorophyll the light just powers the reaction to split the water molecules, The Hydroxide combines with the Carbon in the Air to produce Carbohydrates (sugars) which is the food.

So to summarise ~ light falls on the leaves which convert it into electrons and the plant uses these electrons (electricity) to make energy as sugar.

There it is in your own post. Plants use the Light to Make their own food. Light is not the plants food, if anything Carbon and Hydroxide is the plants food.


:peace:
again another one who does not understand what energy means energy is food when we eat food and our own ATP as in a plants ATP makes new cells the food we eat is energy the food plants eat is light = makes new cells!

ccome on it make perfect sense it just easyer to say we give plans food instead of saying we give plants somthing to help it to grow.
 

9inch bigbud

Well-Known Member
make a new thread LOL does not mean shit facts are facts people will just vote plant nutes because thats what they have been brought up to beilve
 
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