Do you know somthing called water?

[Dr Kynes]

So, you and Kip Thorne disagree about what is a black hole. Isn't it more like Jazz swimming through eggshells to meet a Mafia Boss?

(please, no more silly analogies)

Similes and analogies are useful in explaining complex systems to those with less interest experience or training in science, particularly when dealing with medicine, physics, engineering, and climatology where the concepts are so vast, complex and interlocking that unscrupulous hucksters (I'm looking at you Al Gore) can simply baffle the people with bullshit. Vomiting up a string of equations and a list of dry peer reviewed articles from obscure professional journals doesn't help the average guy understand why water doesn't remember shit, the earth is not being overheated by your toyota celica, and homeopathic practitioners who gleefully (but confusingly) admit that their products and services do NOTHING, by design and thats why they work (????!!!!?).

I cant build a house or make a cupboard, and i don't expect carpenters to know how to rebuild their transmission. Expecting people who may not have a graduate degree in physics, math or engineering to run your equations or read some paper in the oct 1998 issue of The International Journal of Ridiculously Complex Mathematics. This is as useless as declaring "Putting a magnet on your fuel line will not make your car's engine perform better". That statement is absolutely true and irrefutable, but the dipshit on the infomercial has all these complex looking "experiments" and demonstrations, and he uses so many big words that sound so technical.... maybe his specially engineered magnets use a quantum field generator to make the gasoline remember the cyclonic vortex!

Throwing out calculus trigonometry and even algebra in a forum for hop-heads really wont help the victims of hucksterism see why the asshole on late night TV is ripping them off. If declarations from a sound scientific background worked, i would never have to explain why:

Your car's exhaust system does not have any back pressure. it works on a vacuum.
Electric cars and hybrids don't save energy or reduce pollution, they just make the pollution someplace else.
With the exception of metals almost everything you recycle in your home bins goes to a landfill.
Magnets will not reduce pain, or stimulate healing in the human body.
Gambling in casinos, at racetracks or in your back alley dice game is not a plan for financial security.
When a hippy, huckster, salesman or celebrity talks about "Energy" what they mean is "Good Vibes"
Rappers do not have good taste in booze, clothes or music.
The Dixie Chicks, Ted Nugent, Sean "P Diddy" Combs, Whoopi Goldberg and Kevin Trudeau are not the people who should be advising your opinions on politics science or health
Organic does not mean healthy, it means "includes carbon". Any other context, connotation, implication or claim for anything labeled "Organic" is pure bullshit.
The earth is not being overheated by human action. The same guys, in the 1970s, claimed we were going to cause an ice age using the same data.
Guns don't actually commit crimes. They need help from a criminal.
Circumcision is not beneficial to health, and babies can in fact feel pain.
Gaps in scientific evidence or the fossil record does not mean the Flintstones is a documentary.

 

[Doer]

Just seems like a bunch of opinions to me. Maybe save the similes for the cocktail party? This is the Science section.

Just sounds like woo when you wax so poetic.

 

[delvite]

Oh my. this thread makes my brain hurt.

Black holes are not holes. they are collapsed matter. protons (+) and neutrons (=) form the nucleus of an atom. this nucleus is surrounded by whizzing electrons (-). Everything in the universe is controlled by the interplay of two forces, the gravitic attraction of all mass calling things together, and the repulsive and attractive force of electromagnetism.

Every tiny particle of matter (including electrons, photons, and presumably sub-atomic and quantum particles as well) is always exerting force on every other particle, trying to drag the entire universe back into a single lump of non-matter chaotic madness gel where time space matter energy and psuedoscientific craziness all join together in a wild free love be-in, kind of like Burning Man for physicists. This gravitic force seems to transcend space and time, extending throughout everywhere in a manner so wacky that even Einstein couldn't pin it down. It cant be blocked, shielded or (as far as we know yet) neutralized, except by distance.

Electromagnetism is quite different. As distance increases between two particles, the power of the repulsion/attraction reduces by a factor of 3 (look up ""inverse cube law" for the math) and increases in intensity by the same factor as the distance reduces. This is why you keep your lights closer to your top colas to get bigger nugs, but too close makes burnt dope. The electromagnetic force also can be blocked by other matter, whereas gravity cannot. Two protons repel each other, as do two electrons, but a proton and an electron attract each other. Like hippies and dealers at a grateful dead concert, electrons swirl in until the positive electromagnetic force is equalized, and every dealer (proton) has a customer (electron) circling it, buying it's dope. sometimes an extra customer swings in,(negative ionization) but there's no dope for him, so he can be easily shoved off to another concert venue, (atom) where Steel Pulse has attracted an extra dealer looking to move some weight. Sometimes two atoms share a fan base, where individual customers (electrons) enjoy moving freely from one show to another, thus linking the two shows (or more) into a singe fandom. Sometimes these free and easy exchanges of customers (electrons) among so many different nucleus' (snoop dog, eminem, dr dre, etc..) that they form a festival show (molecule) which is held together solely by the commonality of interest from the fans. simple three act shows, like snoop slim shady and dre are the basic building blocks of the newtonian universe, water for example, but some are so wide ranging, eclectic and bizarre that they form extremely complex formations (delta tetra hydro cannabinol for example) which cna cause strange interactions with other nearby molecules and systems (coachella).

Conversely, some systems are so divergent that the electrons will refuse to readily move from one molecule to another (dudes dont go to celine dion concerts) except under the influence of a more powerful force (girlfriend withholding sexual congress) such as solvents, acids, bases and electrical currents. One of the forces which can overpower the repulsive/attractive powers of electromagnetism is gravity. Under the right circumstances, matter can build up to levels where the electromagnetic repulsion power of the electron shell is unable to maintain distance between atoms (criticality) then, just a nudge from outside (explosion from TNT) and the whole system drops into itself, the protons get too close together, and violently push each other way like a fart in an elevator. That's nuclear fission. Sometimes, the critical mass is so great, it simply collapses like a brazilian soccer stadium, and the protons and neutrons fall into each other. sometimes when this happens, the force of all that mass collapsing overpowers the repulsion of two protons in proximity (i blame neutrons) and the just keep stacking up together. Imagine a shitload of eggs in a barrel. the shell is the electrons, the inside is the nucleus (yolk for protons, albumin for neutrons) you can keep placing eggs in the barrel, and as long as the weight of the eggs is less than the crush weight of the shells on the bottom, everything goes swimmingly. but when that last egg goes on top, shells at the bottom start collapsing in a chain reaction. Unlike eggs, whose soft liquid interiors cushion the falls of the next eggs as they drop down, atoms collapse with a violent release of energy, which hits it's nearby neighbors like a hammer, causing them to fail, one after another (chain reaction). once this chain reaction of collapse starts, it cannot be stopped, and any particle (proton neutron or electron) which falls into the gravity of the collapse simply joins the party.

That's a black hole. not a hole (an empty space) but the opposite, an area with more stuff than it can hold while still adhering to newtonian physics of our mechanical universe. Again, kinda like burning man.

inbetween force/energy created by the interplay of the two forces? nice analogys

 

[delvite]

Similes and analogies are useful in explaining complex systems to those with less interest experience or training in science, particularly when dealing with medicine, physics, engineering, and climatology where the concepts are so vast, complex and interlocking that unscrupulous hucksters (I'm looking at you Al Gore) can simply baffle the people with bullshit. Vomiting up a string of equations and a list of dry peer reviewed articles from obscure professional journals doesn't help the average guy understand why water doesn't remember shit, the earth is not being overheated by your toyota celica, and homeopathic practitioners who gleefully (but confusingly) admit that their products and services do NOTHING, by design and thats why they work (????!!!!?).

I cant build a house or make a cupboard, and i don't expect carpenters to know how to rebuild their transmission. Expecting people who may not have a graduate degree in physics, math or engineering to run your equations or read some paper in the oct 1998 issue of The International Journal of Ridiculously Complex Mathematics. This is as useless as declaring "Putting a magnet on your fuel line will not make your car's engine perform better". That statement is absolutely true and irrefutable, but the dipshit on the infomercial has all these complex looking "experiments" and demonstrations, and he uses so many big words that sound so technical.... maybe his specially engineered magnets use a quantum field generator to make the gasoline remember the cyclonic vortex!

Throwing out calculus trigonometry and even algebra in a forum for hop-heads really wont help the victims of hucksterism see why the asshole on late night TV is ripping them off. If declarations from a sound scientific background worked, i would never have to explain why:

Your car's exhaust system does not have any back pressure. it works on a vacuum.
Electric cars and hybrids don't save energy or reduce pollution, they just make the pollution someplace else.
With the exception of metals almost everything you recycle in your home bins goes to a landfill.
Magnets will not reduce pain, or stimulate healing in the human body.
Gambling in casinos, at racetracks or in your back alley dice game is not a plan for financial security.
When a hippy, huckster, salesman or celebrity talks about "Energy" what they mean is "Good Vibes"
Rappers do not have good taste in booze, clothes or music.
The Dixie Chicks, Ted Nugent, Sean "P Diddy" Combs, Whoopi Goldberg and Kevin Trudeau are not the people who should be advising your opinions on politics science or health
Organic does not mean healthy, it means "includes carbon". Any other context, connotation, implication or claim for anything labeled "Organic" is pure bullshit.
The earth is not being overheated by human action. The same guys, in the 1970s, claimed we were going to cause an ice age using the same data.
Guns don't actually commit crimes. They need help from a criminal.
Circumcision is not beneficial to health, and babies can in fact feel pain.
Gaps in scientific evidence or the fossil record does not mean the Flintstones is a documentary.

see now you may just know what your talking about magnets - gravety - force - water - ?????? - energy/power?force

 

[delvite]

Just seems like a bunch of opinions to me. Maybe save the similes for the cocktail party? This is the Science section.

Just sounds like woo when you wax so poetic.

everything was just a thought/opinion at one point in time you dont need to be einstein to know this leave the analogys alone

 

[Dr Kynes]

see now you may just know what your talking about magnets - gravety - force - water - ?????? - energy/power?force

magnets (electromagnetism) and gravity are fundamentally different forces, that have nothing to do with The Force, water or anything else from new age theosophy (seriously man, water doesnt remember things. its just oxygen and hydrogen)

theres only 2 energies. Gravity and Electromagnetism. Gravity is the tricky one. its tough to understand, and acts in strange ways that are hard to describe (even by the smartest scientists with complex math). Electromagnetism is much broader in it's actions, but it does so many things it's usually easier to get a handle on in science class. Electromagnetism is all about electrons in motion. When they move, electrons do lotsa stuff, but after that its all inertia (objects in motions stay in motion, objects at rest stay in the same place, until something acts on them) and entropy (as things get farther away from their source, they get weaker. it's a lot more complicated than that but that will do for everything on earth)

Electromagnetism is:
Light: electrons moving freely through space.
Magnets: (regardless of what ICP thinks) are not magic. i'm too baked to even try and explain how they do what they do, but my science prof laid it out real simply 30 years ago.
Electricity: electrons moving through a conductor, jumping down the line from one atom or molecule's electron shell to the next until it finds a place to stay.
Heat: atoms moving about usually because they have been bumped around by free moving electrons(radiant heat) or because they got jostled by atoms that were bumped by atoms that were bumped by free moving electrons (conductive heat)
Radiation: see light above (protons and neutrons excepted, that's another story)
Chemical Energy: still just electrons in motion. they just get stored up for later use
Wind: atoms in motion, but the atoms were moved by electrons.
Lightning: yep. them's electrons.

Electromagnetism is NOT
Karma
Good Vibes
That feeling you get when you donate to the Crippled Children's Fund
the power of positive thinking
the power of visualization
the power of imagination
God
Yaweh
Jesus
Mohammed
some inexplicable wonder juice that violates common sense, allowing your car to run without oil or coolant while somebody sprays it with a fire hose
the sparkle in your lover's eyes.
some shit for sale on late night TV or in the back of a comic book
a mystical force that binds the universe together though the actions of mitichlorians.
power of the will and the word, by which the mage controls the fundamental forces of the universe and binds them to his bidding.
the screams of children bottled up by monsters under your bed and used to fuel their alternate dimension.
anything that requires a pentagram, magic circle, tetragrammaton, chanting or any barnyard animals, be they alive or dead.
anything which requires a full moon, eclipse, the blood of a virgin, soil from beneath a hangman's tree, dirt from a fresh dug grave or the skull of Alastair Crowley

it makes me crazy when cats talk about 'scientific theories" such as mind over matter, only using 10% of our brains, earth changes in 2012, the coming of nibiru, pole shifts and all the wacky stuff thats rolling around in the (if i may coin a phrase) Woo-niverse. Even worse, people who insist that every discussion of science or technology has to become a nerd-off, as everybody has to bring a more complex math problem to the table or get dismissed as ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT! by those who have anointed themselves as guardians of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. You dont have to understand how your refrigerator stays cool, but do understand, it's not water memory, homeopathy or magic. However, just accepting what I say (it's not magic) is also not right, as i might be part of the conspiracy to keep the populace at large in the dark about what is goin on at Hogwarts. For all you know, im wearing a robe and pointy hat right now. Seriously though, anybody who makes extraordinary claims (water remembers what words were said over it before it was frozen) must bring extraordinary proofs. Water memory is one of the founding principles of homeopathy, which unashamedly claims that there is NO MEASURABLE CONTENT of the active ingredient in your homeopathic solution, so "it's as safe as plain water because that's what it is" (actual claim on a homeopathic remedy used by my mum) but the water remembers the active ingredient was there before.... Yeah, no. sorry, it doesnt.

 

[delvite]

magnets (electromagnetism) and gravity are fundamentally different forces, that have nothing to do with The Force, water or anything else from new age theosophy (seriously man, water doesnt remember things. its just oxygen and hydrogen)

theres only 2 energies. Gravity and Electromagnetism. Gravity is the tricky one. its tough to understand, and acts in strange ways that are hard to describe (even by the smartest scientists with complex math). Electromagnetism is much broader in it's actions, but it does so many things it's usually easier to get a handle on in science class. Electromagnetism is all about electrons in motion. When they move, electrons do lotsa stuff, but after that its all inertia (objects in motions stay in motion, objects at rest stay in the same place, until something acts on them) and entropy (as things get farther away from their source, they get weaker. it's a lot more complicated than that but that will do for everything on earth)

Electromagnetism is:
Light: electrons moving freely through space.
Magnets: (regardless of what ICP thinks) are not magic. i'm too baked to even try and explain how they do what they do, but my science prof laid it out real simply 30 years ago.
Electricity: electrons moving through a conductor, jumping down the line from one atom or molecule's electron shell to the next until it finds a place to stay.
Heat: atoms moving about usually because they have been bumped around by free moving electrons(radiant heat) or because they got jostled by atoms that were bumped by atoms that were bumped by free moving electrons (conductive heat)
Radiation: see light above (protons and neutrons excepted, that's another story)
Chemical Energy: still just electrons in motion. they just get stored up for later use
Wind: atoms in motion, but the atoms were moved by electrons.
Lightning: yep. them's electrons.

Electromagnetism is NOT
Karma
Good Vibes
That feeling you get when you donate to the Crippled Children's Fund
the power of positive thinking
the power of visualization
the power of imagination
God
Yaweh
Jesus
Mohammed
some inexplicable wonder juice that violates common sense, allowing your car to run without oil or coolant while somebody sprays it with a fire hose
the sparkle in your lover's eyes.
some shit for sale on late night TV or in the back of a comic book
a mystical force that binds the universe together though the actions of mitichlorians.
power of the will and the word, by which the mage controls the fundamental forces of the universe and binds them to his bidding.
the screams of children bottled up by monsters under your bed and used to fuel their alternate dimension.
anything that requires a pentagram, magic circle, tetragrammaton, chanting or any barnyard animals, be they alive or dead.
anything which requires a full moon, eclipse, the blood of a virgin, soil from beneath a hangman's tree, dirt from a fresh dug grave or the skull of Alastair Crowley

it makes me crazy when cats talk about 'scientific theories" such as mind over matter, only using 10% of our brains, earth changes in 2012, the coming of nibiru, pole shifts and all the wacky stuff thats rolling around in the (if i may coin a phrase) Woo-niverse. Even worse, people who insist that every discussion of science or technology has to become a nerd-off, as everybody has to bring a more complex math problem to the table or get dismissed as ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT! by those who have anointed themselves as guardians of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. You dont have to understand how your refrigerator stays cool, but do understand, it's not water memory, homeopathy or magic. However, just accepting what I say (it's not magic) is also not right, as i might be part of the conspiracy to keep the populace at large in the dark about what is goin on at Hogwarts. For all you know, im wearing a robe and pointy hat right now. Seriously though, anybody who makes extraordinary claims (water remembers what words were said over it before it was frozen) must bring extraordinary proofs. Water memory is one of the founding principles of homeopathy, which unashamedly claims that there is NO MEASURABLE CONTENT of the active ingredient in your homeopathic solution, so "it's as safe as plain water because that's what it is" (actual claim on a homeopathic remedy used by my mum) but the water remembers the active ingredient was there before.... Yeah, no. sorry, it doesnt.

........................i like your replys > funny + educational where do you think we will find the key to what sparked time/space ( your opinion please ) if it was a spark what two ???????s caused it

 

[Dr Kynes]

........................i like your replys > funny + educational where do you think we will find the key to what sparked time/space ( your opinion please ) if it was a spark what two ???????s caused it

Stephen Hawking has been trying to formulate a UNIFIED FIELD THEORY! (caps because you have to shout those words from the bottom of your diaphragm, it's that important) his whole life. Einstein spent 60 years trying to come up with a UNIFIED FIELD THEORY!, and never managed it.

If those guys haven't worked it out, i aint gonna even say shit. I will say this, most of the people who say they have a UNIFIED FIELD THEORY! are trying to sell you something. Very much like cold fusion (lolwut?) cars that run on water, perpetual motion machines, internet ads to make money from your computer, amway, scientology (and in fact all religions, and quite a few political ideologies), vortex generators for your car's intake manifold, colloidal silver, homeopathy, quaballah wristbands, green job creators, Robert "rich dad" Kurosaki, green energy startups, power balance magic bracelets and penis enlargement pills, its all just an attempt to separate marks from their money. If you listen to these hucksters long enough as they spin their fish stories into fairy tales, eventually you'll hear them casually mention their book (available in the lobby, it just so happens) their website (many fine products available), or their upcoming seminar at the local Holiday Inn (only $80, seats are running out fast).

Politicians, hucksters, snake oil salesmen, used car dealers, advertising executives and lawyers all share the same skill-set, the ability to say outlandish shit with an air of authority, honesty and empathy. My grandpappy used to say "Never trust nobody unless you got 'em by the wallet, or the balls." Wise words from a wise man. You don't have to trust me, but i also don't have a "cash flow system" (thats the new term for a scam, con, hustle or grift) based on how many people agree with me on the interwebs. I do however accept donations of cash, weed and girls between the ages of 18 and 45. The collection tray comes around at the end of the sermon.

Let us now all rise and open our hymnals to page 420, for our benediction, Blueberry Yum Yum, by Ludacris. Organist, in the key of C if you please...

 

[delvite]

Stephen Hawking has been trying to formulate a UNIFIED FIELD THEORY! (caps because you have to shout those words from the bottom of your diaphragm, it's that important) his whole life. Einstein spent 60 years trying to come up with a UNIFIED FIELD THEORY!, and never managed it.

If those guys haven't worked it out, i aint gonna even say shit. I will say this, most of the people who say they have a UNIFIED FIELD THEORY! are trying to sell you something. Very much like cold fusion (lolwut?) cars that run on water, perpetual motion machines, internet ads to make money from your computer, amway, scientology (and in fact all religions, and quite a few political ideologies), vortex generators for your car's intake manifold, colloidal silver, homeopathy, quaballah wristbands, green job creators, Robert "rich dad" Kurosaki, green energy startups, power balance magic bracelets and penis enlargement pills, its all just an attempt to separate marks from their money. If you listen to these hucksters long enough as they spin their fish stories into fairy tales, eventually you'll hear them casually mention their book (available in the lobby, it just so happens) their website (many fine products available), or their upcoming seminar at the local Holiday Inn (only $80, seats are running out fast).

Politicians, hucksters, snake oil salesmen, used car dealers, advertising executives and lawyers all share the same skill-set, the ability to say outlandish shit with an air of authority, honesty and empathy. My grandpappy used to say "Never trust nobody unless you got 'em by the wallet, or the balls." Wise words from a wise man. You don't have to trust me, but i also don't have a "cash flow system" (thats the new term for a scam, con, hustle or grift) based on how many people agree with me on the interwebs. I do however accept donations of cash, weed and girls between the ages of 18 and 45. The collection tray comes around at the end of the sermon.

Let us now all rise and open our hymnals to page 420, for our benediction, Blueberry Yum Yum, by Ludacris. Organist, in the key of C if you please...

you are on the ball dr so do you think evolution being held bk by the worlds most rich/powerful? ( if we can call them that ) it seems alot of patents for moving forward in the future are bought then either destroyed because its better or released at a time when its most profitable

 

[Dr Kynes]

you are on the ball dr so do you think evolution being held bk by the worlds most rich/powerful? ( if we can call them that ) it seems alot of patents for moving forward in the future are bought then either destroyed because its better or released at a time when its most profitable

Nope. rich people really like getting richer. people who invent things dont usually get rich off them, rather, the people who buy them and then market them get rich. patents are a race to the finish, If i invent a new device, lets say, a device that ferments, and distills ordinary household garbage into alcohols, and then re-fractions that alcohol into long chain hydrocarbons (plastics, industrial base chemicals, and kerosene etc..., the shit that is actually profitable to oil companies)then i would be in a prime position to make a fucking fortune. But only for 20 years. Every patent expires after 20 years, and then anybody can use your design. If i delay filing my patent, somebody else may be developing the same technology someplace else, and beat me to the filing, in which case i have nothing.

Alternately, Trade Secrets never expire, but are only useful if you can use the design AND keep it secret. If i dont use my designs i have nothing. if somebody steals my designs, i have nothing unless i can prove the theft in court. However if somebody designs something like mine, and i cant prove he stole it, or worse he CAN prove he invented it independently, he can patent that design and i again have nothing. either way most inventors opt for a patent, with it's 20 year exclusive license. Holding new technologies in total secret (like claims of the water burning car, which was bullshit) and not declaring it a trade secret or patenting it is a dangerous gamble that i doubt anybody would take. even in the example of my petrochemical machine, even oil companies would be drooling to get their hands on, and use such a device. Drilling for oil is expensive, risky and dangerous, shipping that crude oil to refineries is expensive as fuck, refining it is also expensive as fuck, plus for every barrel of crude oil pumped out of the ground, the oil company must pay a lease fee (it's really called a Patent but we will call it a lease fee for simplicity, ok?) to the oil rights holder (usually a national or regional government) cutting any part of that chain down (exploration drilling pumping and shipping crude oil and paying the lease fees in this case) would dramatically increase the profits to the companies who could take advantage of such innovations. in brief, i would be snorting rails of diamond dust off the gold plated asses of million dollar a night robot hookers in the back of my private space shuttle on my way to my moon-mansion.

so, no, i dont believe theres any secret cabal keeping the lid on world changing inventions "THEY" dont want us to know about.

 

[RyanTheRhino]

A black hole is a super dense singularity of matter.

 

[Doer]

A black hole is a super dense singularity of matter.

Well, we can read Kip Thorne's ideas. He say no matter is left, it's been stripped for the energy to knot space. The knot of space is the point gravity. Not crushed matter. Very interesting, RyantheRhyno, it is the main math proof, that I know of, for compressible Space.

"A hole in the ground is not made of soil, but instead from the empty space left after digging out the soil. In the same way, black holes are made not from matter, but from a warping of spacetime itself. To help us picture what a black hole looks like, Thorne uses the analogy of a blind ant who lives on a large trampoline with a heavy rock in the middle."


http://plus.maths.org/content/catching-waves-kip-thorne

 

[Dr Kynes]

Well, we can read Kip Thorne's ideas. He say no matter is left, it's been stripped for the energy to knot space. The knot of space is the point gravity. Not crushed matter. Very interesting, RyantheRhyno, it is the main math proof, that I know of, for compressible Space.

"A hole in the ground is not made of soil, but instead from the empty space left after digging out the soil. In the same way, black holes are made not from matter, but from a warping of spacetime itself. To help us picture what a black hole looks like, Thorne uses the analogy of a blind ant who lives on a large trampoline with a heavy rock in the middle."


http://plus.maths.org/content/catching-waves-kip-thorne

If, as most astrophysicists contend, a singularity is formed by the intense gravity of a collapsing star or other massive celestial body (mass) then it stands to reason that the mass will still be present in the center of the event. the event still exerts gravitic forces on nearby bodies, therefore, logically it still has mass. Asserting that mass can somehow be converted into space (of any flavor you wish) while still exerting gravity seems more like sophistry than science. Kip thorne could declare a mathematical proof that the Milky Way's center is filled with nougat and peanuts (a theory supported by several small scale models currently residing in my freezer) and it would make more sense than a space thats not made of space, but rather inter-twining knots of energy that used to be matter before it was transformed into both energy and space which are niether energy, or space. His theories of a "dark side" dimension are similarly unprovable, and will continue to face my personal rejection until i, with my own eyes, see Spock's Beard.

As there is clearly no way to empirically observe a singularity, much less the forces that are operating within it, no-one can make positive factual statements about what they are, or are not. For the casual observer, the science newb, or those without graduate level degrees in the appropriate disciplines (thats about 99% of the population), what some mathematician, physicist or other sliderule jockey claims his mathematical models "prove" regarding a phenomenon so removed from everyday life, and the newtonian universe is frankly irrelevant. We can observe what they do to objects near them, and most people who ask "whats a black hole" really just want to know if the earth is gonna be swallowed up in one when the LHC opens a rift in the brane and headcrabs start spilling out on the streets of geneva.

 

[sfttailpaul]

oh my. This thread makes my brain hurt.

Black holes are not holes. They are collapsed matter. Protons (+) and neutrons (=) form the nucleus of an atom. This nucleus is surrounded by whizzing electrons (-). Everything in the universe is controlled by the interplay of two forces, the gravitic attraction of all mass calling things together, and the repulsive and attractive force of electromagnetism.

Every tiny particle of matter (including electrons, photons, and presumably sub-atomic and quantum particles as well) is always exerting force on every other particle, trying to drag the entire universe back into a single lump of non-matter chaotic madness gel where time space matter energy and psuedoscientific craziness all join together in a wild free love be-in, kind of like burning man for physicists. This gravitic force seems to transcend space and time, extending throughout everywhere in a manner so wacky that even einstein couldn't pin it down. It cant be blocked, shielded or (as far as we know yet) neutralized, except by distance.

Electromagnetism is quite different. As distance increases between two particles, the power of the repulsion/attraction reduces by a factor of 3 (look up ""inverse cube law" for the math) and increases in intensity by the same factor as the distance reduces. This is why you keep your lights closer to your top colas to get bigger nugs, but too close makes burnt dope. The electromagnetic force also can be blocked by other matter, whereas gravity cannot. Two protons repel each other, as do two electrons, but a proton and an electron attract each other. Like hippies and dealers at a grateful dead concert, electrons swirl in until the positive electromagnetic force is equalized, and every dealer (proton) has a customer (electron) circling it, buying it's dope. Sometimes an extra customer swings in,(negative ionization) but there's no dope for him, so he can be easily shoved off to another concert venue, (atom) where steel pulse has attracted an extra dealer looking to move some weight. Sometimes two atoms share a fan base, where individual customers (electrons) enjoy moving freely from one show to another, thus linking the two shows (or more) into a singe fandom. Sometimes these free and easy exchanges of customers (electrons) among so many different nucleus' (snoop dog, eminem, dr dre, etc..) that they form a festival show (molecule) which is held together solely by the commonality of interest from the fans. Simple three act shows, like snoop slim shady and dre are the basic building blocks of the newtonian universe, water for example, but some are so wide ranging, eclectic and bizarre that they form extremely complex formations (delta tetra hydro cannabinol for example) which cna cause strange interactions with other nearby molecules and systems (coachella).

Conversely, some systems are so divergent that the electrons will refuse to readily move from one molecule to another (dudes dont go to celine dion concerts) except under the influence of a more powerful force (girlfriend withholding sexual congress) such as solvents, acids, bases and electrical currents. One of the forces which can overpower the repulsive/attractive powers of electromagnetism is gravity. Under the right circumstances, matter can build up to levels where the electromagnetic repulsion power of the electron shell is unable to maintain distance between atoms (criticality) then, just a nudge from outside (explosion from tnt) and the whole system drops into itself, the protons get too close together, and violently push each other way like a fart in an elevator. That's nuclear fission. Sometimes, the critical mass is so great, it simply collapses like a brazilian soccer stadium, and the protons and neutrons fall into each other. Sometimes when this happens, the force of all that mass collapsing overpowers the repulsion of two protons in proximity (i blame neutrons) and the just keep stacking up together. Imagine a shitload of eggs in a barrel. The shell is the electrons, the inside is the nucleus (yolk for protons, albumin for neutrons) you can keep placing eggs in the barrel, and as long as the weight of the eggs is less than the crush weight of the shells on the bottom, everything goes swimmingly. But when that last egg goes on top, shells at the bottom start collapsing in a chain reaction. Unlike eggs, whose soft liquid interiors cushion the falls of the next eggs as they drop down, atoms collapse with a violent release of energy, which hits it's nearby neighbors like a hammer, causing them to fail, one after another (chain reaction). Once this chain reaction of collapse starts, it cannot be stopped, and any particle (proton neutron or electron) which falls into the gravity of the collapse simply joins the party.

That's a black hole. Not a hole (an empty space) but the opposite, an area with more stuff than it can hold while still adhering to newtonian physics of our mechanical universe. Again, kinda like burning man.

dude, that was an excellent comment but now my brain really does hurt from reading it. I need to do a few bong hits to make sense of what you wrote. Thank you for this...

 

[delvite]

Several magnetic water treatmenthttp://www.ehow.com/list_7637579_effects-magnetized-water-plants.html# (MWT) products claim to soften water and reduce scale deposition. Though many engineers question the benefits of magnetized water, some environmental companies and gardeners swear by it, believing it can improve human and plant health. If you would like to try magnetized water on your own plants, you can purchase a simple, easy-to-install MWT treatment that fits around your water pipe. Although there is little research that proves the benefits of magnetized water, there aren't any signs that it harms your health or the health of your plants.

[h=2]Faster Growth[/h]

• According to Omni Enviro Water Systems, magnetized water has less surface tension and may dissolve more nutrients than harder water. These extra nutrients flow to and are more readily absorbed by the roots, stimulating their growth and decreasing the growing cycle by 15 to 20 days. In addition to faster growth, the extra nutrients allow a higher proportion of plants to thrive, increasing crop production from 15 to 20 percent or more.
  
  

[h=2]Increased Crop Quality[/h]

• Fruits and vegetableshttp://www.ehow.com/list_7637579_effects-magnetized-water-plants.html# grown with magnetized water develop sooner and are thought to be higher in quality as well as quantity. According to farmers from Bounty of the Valley, J. Marchini farms and the Stamoules Produce Company, magnetized water has dramatically increased the quality of corn, raddiccio and other crops they grow. This is another result of the dissolving properties of soft, magnetized water; the water brings more nutrients to the plants which makes them healthier and tastier.
  
  
  
  [h=2]Less Need for Treatments[/h]
  • Since magnetized water is believed to dissolve more nutrients than regular water, the plants need less fertilizer. Plants treated with magnetized water are more robust than other plants which makes them better able to fend off pests and diseases. This decreases or eliminates the need for pesticides and fungicides, which are costly and often harmful to human and environmental health.
    
    
    
    http://www.ehow.com/list_7637579_effects-magnetized-water-plants.html#Magnetic water (MW) is water that has been passed through a magnetic field. Magnetic water treatment devices (MTDs) are environmentally friendly, with low installation costs and no energy requirements. MW can be used to increase crop yield, induce seed germination and benefit the health of livestock. MW treatment is currently used in Australia, Bulgaria, China, England, Japan, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Turkey and the United States for these purposes (Qados and Hozyan, 2010 and Hozayn and Qados, 2010). It is believed that MW used for irrigation can improve water productivity (Duarte Diaz et al., 1997), thus conserving water supplies for the expected future global water scarcity. MW has also been found to be effective at preventing and removing scale deposits in pipes and water containing structures. Magnetically treated water also can increase the levels of CO2 and H+ in soils comparable to the addition of fertilizers. Cleaning agents have an increased effectiveness when combined with the power of MW, and the amount of cleaner used can be reduced by one-third to one-fourth (Kronenberg, 1993).
    
    http://www.moreplant.com/magnetized-water/
    
    i may just try it
    
    
    
  
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[Dr Kynes]

Magnetic fields only effect magnetically active atoms, such as iron, titanium and nickle. they do not effect any substance which cannot be attracted to a magnet, including hydrogen oxygen nitrogen potassium phosphorous magnesium molybdenum copper sulfur manganese salts chlorine fluoride or any other material which does not stick to your refrigerator magnets. test it and see bro (with a fridge magnet, not this magic potion machine)

these guys are selling their magic machine, and i seen a thousand things like this come and go in my time.

special boxes for your car's ignition coil that makes you use less gas SCAM
little finned tubes for your intake manifold to "vortex" the incoming air BULLSHIT
a car that runs on pure water STRANGELY ENOUGH, TRUE BUT AT THE SAME TIME HORSESHIT! (look up "brown's gas" and see that it actually works, but costs you TONS more energy than it produces)
Cubes that go in your washin machine eliminating the need for laundry soap GOT THE SELLERS PRISON TIME FOR FRAUD
Amway DUDE...
Scientology AWWW MAN...
Income at Home.com FUCK ITS AMWAY AGAIN
anything followed by the phrase "THEY dont want you to know" ALL LIES

save your money, if you want bigger yields, better crops and faster turnaround time Compost with Worms, and plant complimentary crops (mint, and marigolds, bugs hate them and clover actually adds nitrogen to your soil as it grows)

 

[delvite]

Magnetic fields only effect magnetically active atoms, such as iron, titanium and nickle. they do not effect any substance which cannot be attracted to a magnet, including hydrogen oxygen nitrogen potassium phosphorous magnesium molybdenum copper sulfur manganese salts chlorine fluoride or any other material which does not stick to your refrigerator magnets. test it and see bro (with a fridge magnet, not this magic potion machine)

these guys are selling their magic machine, and i seen a thousand things like this come and go in my time.

special boxes for your car's ignition coil that makes you use less gas SCAM
little finned tubes for your intake manifold to "vortex" the incoming air BULLSHIT
a car that runs on pure water STRANGELY ENOUGH, TRUE BUT AT THE SAME TIME HORSESHIT! (look up "brown's gas" and see that it actually works, but costs you TONS more energy than it produces)
Cubes that go in your washin machine eliminating the need for laundry soap GOT THE SELLERS PRISON TIME FOR FRAUD
Amway DUDE...
Scientology AWWW MAN...
Income at Home.com FUCK ITS AMWAY AGAIN
anything followed by the phrase "THEY dont want you to know" ALL LIES

save your money, if you want bigger yields, better crops and faster turnaround time Compost with Worms, and plant complimentary crops (mint, and marigolds, bugs hate them and clover actually adds nitrogen to your soil as it grows)

so all it would do is clean the scale (calcium, and magnesium) from the pipework making it easier to take up?

 

[Dr Kynes]

so all it would do is clean the scale (calcium, and magnesium) from the pipework making it easier to take up?

No, magnets do NOT effect calcium magnesium salts etc...
they only effect "ferrous" or iron-like metals like iron, titanium and nickel

magnets dont even effect the iron in your blood. (bonding with oxygen makes iron non-magnetically active until the oxygen is driven off the iron) otherwise the gorilla strong magnets in an MRI machine would stick you to the side like roadkill as soon as it got switched on.

 

[Heisenberg]

these guys are selling their magic machine, and i seen a thousand things like this come and go in my time.

No kidding, we don't even have to leave the realm of water before we see a thousand.


http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

I am guessing if we include the realm of magnets, we could easily hit 10,000.

 

[delvite]

...........................................another answer to the same question ;

I am an Electrical Engineer, BE, and a magnetic system design specialist. We have designed systems since 1991 when our shareholder was the CSIRO. The science of the transformation is not easily understood. The fact is that we have done trials in agriculture and mining. In mining applications we have engineers not believing the results but they have no choice but to buy the units because they clear the pipes. The deal was they pay only if it removes the scale. Within a few months they bought a second unit for a second line because it worked. Removed years of scale build up in a 6 inch underground coal mine pipeline at Mandalong in the Hunter NSW Australia. The fact is the magnetic field must be strong enough and the magnetic profile must be right. The laws of physics used are clear they are related to Lorentz theory. It is all about charged particles moving in magnetic fields. Just like an electric generator. Just like the old style TV or computer screen. Crystals just have to form differently. The difference between strings and balls coming together. The naivety of the so call intellectuals who are not willing to believe their own eyes. Reminds me of when the first positron was discovered. It appeared in an experiment with electrons which are negative. The positron positive charge was considered an error until some more open minded scientist realised that a positron may exist. Magnetic water conditioning works in most situations but it has some limitations controlled by the water chemistry. Certain element combinations are not as effected as others. That is true with all chemistry as not all chemicals react with every known element. There is a limited range of cases for their reactions. The truth about magnetic systems test results is that when scientist do tests on the treated water they are not doing correct tests. They do tests that test for certain reactions that would normally imply a certain substance present not the effect of the magnetic field. So the science being used to contradict the magnetic influences is based on limited scientific practices not real scientific research. They should be trying to work out why some observations do exist rather than saying that sometimes it doesn't work. I bet no one can pass a charged particle straight through any of our magnetic water conditioners without its trajectory being influenced by the magnetic fields. Scientists should realise that science isn't and end. It is a journey.
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...................so does ts make no sense?
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