Atheists

[overgrowem]

The burden of proof falls on the party making the claim. Why should it be up to any of us to vet your sources, especially when you wont provide them? I can just as easily say, it was widely reported that the airplane was never found, and that scientific testing has shown remote viewing to be worse than random chance. If I do not back these statements up, they mean nothing. Also, I said nothing about a nightclub. I said a number of people keep objects hidden away and publicly ask for ANY remote viewer to describe it, some offer a cash reward.

My statements are not claims,just statements of fact.If U are not curious to check it out so be it,Not worth my time to educate a wilfully in the dark naysayer.Magicians were your go to group to prove whether remote viewing was valid or not,last I heard they haunted clubs,theaters etc.not labs.Debate rule#2,do some opposition research,other than"I know U are but what am I.

 

[bowsa]

hay chief was in a littel bar in n dakota a freind introduced me to a guy his name was cheif walking eagle i asked my freind whats with the name he turned to me and said it used to be chief flying eagle but now its walking eagle cause hes to full of shit to fly! thought iwould share the joke with you i lmao plenty of indians in north dakota and drunk farmers way of life in north dakota gus alittel humortry to lightin it up a littel

 

[ginjawarrior]

My statements are not claims,just statements of fact.If U are not curious to check it out so be it,Not worth my time to educate a wilfully in the dark naysayer.Magicians were your go to group to prove whether remote viewing was valid or not,last I heard they haunted clubs,theaters etc.not labs.Debate rule#2,do some opposition research,other than"I know U are but what am I.

how does he even know where to check all you gave was vague account. if these are indeed facts then you could happily point us to where to see them no?
he pointed to the 1million dollar prize because it is there for proof of paranormal events. the fact that a magician put up the prize fund would have no more relevance than say donald trump putting up the prize money. the money is there its been certified, they regularly test people who claim to have abilities and as yet no ones "powers" have carried on working when properly tested. before any applicant takes the test there has to be agreement between the testers and the tested that the procedure is fair and within in realms of what the person said they can do

saying that they arent scientists isnt vaild either if you'd done enough research on randi you would have found where he emplyed some actors to go take part in a scientific paranormal experiment and they fooled the scientists doing the test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha

oh look how easy it was to supply a link to that

[youtube]KayBys8gaJY[/youtube]

 

[Doer]

I told Doer (think thats his name) of my spiritually gifted friend and his mind reading abilities, I already abolished his explanation of micro-expressions that many con-artists use to trick people. I told this story too many times on here already, only about three times but still its a long story. Basically the short story is that this kid who I thought was fucking bonkers answered a question that I THOUGHT of on a silent walk to get some weed. On the walk back I was freakin out that this kid was able to read my mind (I looked composed though) and so my anxiety lead me to shameful thoughts that I didnt want him knowing and by me thinking those shameful thoughts I knew that he knew those thoughts so my mind became panicked. Near the end of that silent walk he turned to me and said "your faults are what define you, they are the diamond of your being". Those words put me at ease because theres almost no judgement to this guy... Unless your christian, then he hates you.
I no longer thought of him as a nutcase and communicated with him through thought on multiple occasion, cant hear his thoughts though. I've experienced more than mind reading with him, mind reading is not even that impressive after I experienced what else he could do. I tried my best to get him to make this knowledge public but he doesnt want the attention I guess, just willing to spread his knowledge to a select few.
Well if you didnt think I was crazy before, I bet you do now xD

The reason I accept this is because it is a direct experience being described. So, .duran, thanks for the reply, back there. I just have to go one more step. To me, if it's all subjective, it's all there is. We have to remember a period where where can't remember. Those first two years of life, more or less. It means we were trained, unknowingly in the consensual hallucination we call objective reality. It's pretty easy for me to understand as the world morphs from superstition to science, that the objective reality itself might actually be changing.

And there a entire school of thought that see it the other way. Ann Rynd. Objectivity. But, when the eastern thought turns to this it might be "what is the sound of a tree falling if no one is there" No science, for them to get in the way of the perception/conception puzzle.

I don't have an answer but it to me is the greatest puzzle. Is it only Self or is there other. We try to prove that there is Objective Reality. But, the more we peel it, the more it doesn't make sense.

 

[Heisenberg]

My statements are not claims,just statements of fact.If U are not curious to check it out so be it,Not worth my time to educate a wilfully in the dark naysayer.Magicians were your go to group to prove whether remote viewing was valid or not,last I heard they haunted clubs,theaters etc.not labs.Debate rule#2,do some opposition research,other than"I know U are but what am I.

You shouldn't be worried about educating me. The questions I am asking have easy answers, and you should have asked them yourself. You brought up some half remembered bogus hype and now you expect our brains to be impressed. If it was so wideley reported it would be easy to provide a link for us, yet you have now doged this request three times.

I already know which studies you speak of, because when I was curious about remote vewing, I asked question and sought answers. The program you speak of was called Project Stargate, it had a reported budget of 20 million which it depleted, and was subsequently abandoned after 24 years due to lack of results. The remote viewers had complete control over the testing conditions, and still failed. The participants have all gone public and gave accounts of their activities. None of them are being paid by the government currently, none have been kidnapped or mysteriously disappeared. The government is no longer interested in these people nor concerned with what they reveal about their time on the project. Does this sound like a successful program?

An independent government panel was assigned to study the merit of project stargate. This is their conclusion.

The foregoing observations provide a compelling argument against continuation of the program within the intelligence community. Even though a statistically significant effect has been observed in the laboratory, it remains unclear whether the existence of a paranormal phenomenon, remote viewing, has been demonstrated. The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists, nor do they address an important methodological issue of inter-judge reliability.

Further, even if it could be demonstrated unequivocally that a paranormal phenomenon occurs under the conditions present in the laboratory paradigm, these conditions have limited applicability and utility for intelligence gathering operations. For example, the nature of the remote viewing targets are vastly dissimilar, as are the specific tasks required of the remote viewers. Most importantly, the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous, making it difficult, if not impossible, for the technique to yield information of sufficient quality and accuracy of information for actionable intelligence. Thus, we conclude that continued use of remote viewing in intelligence gathering operations is not warranted.

A CIA report noted that in the case of remote viewing there was a large amount of irrelevant, erroneous information that was provided and there was little agreement observed among the reports of the remote viewers

The most outspoken participant is Joseph McMoneagle, who likes to use his time on the project as a way to give credit to his abilities. (even though he doesn't deny the project ended with the government being disinterested, the government wouldn't fund any more research, ect) Joseph agreed to be tested on a TV show. He was asked to find a girl who producers told to go to one of four possible locations.

The four locations were a life size treehouse in a giant tree, a tall metal waterslide at an amusement park, a dock along the river, and the Water Wall, a huge cement fountain structure. The girl was at the dock. Here is what McMoneagle said:

There's a river or something riverlike nearby, with manmade improvements. Houston is a famous river town, so this was a pretty good bet. It applies equally well to the waterslide and to the dock.


There are perpendicular lines. I challenge anyone to find any location anywhere without perpendicular lines.


She's standing on an incline. She was not standing on an incline, and there were no apparent inclines at any of the four locations.


She's looking up at it. This would apply best to the treehouse, the waterslide, or the Water Wall. There was really nothing to look up at at the dock.


There's a pedestrian bridge nearby. Sounds like a close match for the treehouse or the walkways on the waterslide.


There is a lot of metallic noise. Probably the big metal waterslide structure is the best match for this.


There's something big and tall nearby that's not a building. This applies equally well to all four locations.


There's a platform with a black stripe. Not a clear match for any of the locations.

As you can see, his remote viewing revealed nothing definitive. This was the star of the project, who had complete control over the conditions of the project, and who admits the project failed, failing yet again.

As ginja already pointed out, we only have to look at project alpha to see how magicians tricks can easily be used to supply the results needed to simulate remote viewing. Banachek can pass the remote viewing test every time, difference is he doesn't claim to be psychic at all, just good at deception. These tricks may be enough to keep researchers interested for quite a while, but because they are tricks, they never reveal anything useful, never provide actual external knowledge.

Would you like to continue to call me willfully ignorant and chide me for lack of research?

And since you brought up debate rules, it seems you need to familiarize yourself with the concept of Burden of Proof.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project
http://www.skepdic.com/remotevw.html

 

[jessy koons]

Warning. Satire follows. Please don't write me any angry responses.


I am in a remote viewing phase right now. I see lots of stuff that nobody else can see and some of it is hidden. Jenny from next door is showering at the moment but I can't remote view her 'cause it's all steamy, drat. Somebody who is reading this has some coins in their pocket. How's that, huh?

I'm not going to tell you how I do it, you'll just have to believe me. I can read minds too. The other day I tried to read the minds of people posting on this forum and it was a little disappointing. There were a few minds that were working really well ( I won't name any names but you know who you are ) and the minds in other peoples' bodies were just running around in circles, kind of like a squirrel's. They would start to think clearly but then dark thoughts of faith and blind obedience commandeered the whole works and made them stupid. Very sad but very common.

Any way, I can see what everybody is doing so behave yourselves.

P.S. I can see that someones plants need watering. Your welcome

 

[Padawanbater2]

Like I said my intentions were not to convince you of anything, Im just telling my experiences with this gifted fellow, though the things you pointed out may be a tiny bit inconclusive, Im assuming the things you didnt point out were conclusive. Is there any other reason why he would say "No you cant, Shane"? hes not one to dwell on what people say so he wouldnt be referring to a previous conversation (even though he was because my thoughts were referring to a previous conversation). Was he just taking a stab in the dark hoping he could convince me that he was reading my mind? That doesnt sound likely... And when I was behind him and he read my thoughts and laughed, he laughed as he was turning and then made eye contact with me, he wasnt talking to anyone else. If the experiment your thinking of has to do with you thinking about him and him receiving the thoughts than it wont work, he doesnt know you, you dont know him, you dont know who your thinking of, theres also the distance factor. I find myself thinking of his words everyday so he'd probably tell me to SHUT THE FUCK UP if thoughts were able to travel that distance... And if some religious and spiritual testimonies sound similar to what I experienced, shouldnt that tell you of the slivers of truth that lie within religion and spirituality =p. I know, from your point of view it doesnt, just thought I'd say that... And who says it cant be scientifically proven? Im sure if he was willing to be studied than scientists would be shitting their pants in astonishment. Why would he do that if he feels he has nothing to prove? Because he knows hes able to do these things, you only need to prove God to yourself... But I contradicted myself, here I am explaining things when I said my intention wasnt to convince lol Take what you can from the story, perhaps the testimonies you heard of werent tricks of the mind.

Like I asked before, what is the value of having this ability if you can't prove it? What's the difference from you saying "I have a friend who can read minds, but he doesn't want the attention, so he doesn't show many people.." and me saying "I have a friend who can fly, but he doesn't want the attention, so he doesn't show many people..."? There is no fundamental difference, both statements are meaningless.

Carl Sagan's invisible dragon bit tackles that exact problem. Alonzo Harris said it best;

http://www.hark.com/clips/bcjkxjmkvz-its-not-what-you-know-its-what-you-can-prove


Religious testimonies sound similar to what you described because other humans, also with the exact same built in flaws that we discussed earlier, have them. The flaws originated during our evolution, everybody else has them as well. It takes knowledge and awareness of the tricks your mind is capable of playing to recognize and understand them so you're better equipped to see through them to what reality actually is. My mind plays tricks on me every day, I just know what to look out for and know not to base my thoughts on emotions or not to jump to any irrational conclusions. You have the exact same ability, you just have to pay attention and train yourself.

 

[HydroDawg421]

Mary put out like every other woman has since the beginning of time! She laid on her back, spread her legs and Joe dropped seed. Immaculate conception my ass. More like an immaculate lie !!!

 

[Doer]

However, if someone can, let's say, walk on water, it's best not demonstrate that. Even today, or I should say, especially today, that person would be seen as in the demon state and very dire trouble for him, one way or another. It would be not be worth it, right? History proves that.

 

[mindphuk]

I dont accept the religion as a whole, but the archangels are in Christianity, Islam, and I THINK Judaism. There is truth in most religions but I wouldnt follow one because the words and teachings have been so disgustingly twisted. If I were to pick one than it would be Buddhism... My friend hates Christianity, even though theres some truth, Christianity was purposely invented to control people. He said that the God Christianity refers to was killed by other Gods because he thought he was perfect, which does kinda explain the mindset of christians lol. He said the Quran has way more truth in it but its still very twisted information.

OMG! You finally answered a question of mine without resorting to ridicule or attacks. Thank you so much. I am serious BTW, I do appreciate having an actual dialogue.

 

[mindphuk]

My statements are not claims,just statements of fact.

Do you even know what a claim is?
[TABLE="class: ts"]
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[TD]Verb:
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[TD][TABLE="class: ts"]
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[TD]State or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
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[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #ddd"]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Noun:
[/TD]
[TD][TABLE="class: ts"]
[TR]
[TD]An assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

You can't say you made a statement of fact and then deny it was a claim to relieve yourself of the burden of providing evidence. Asking others to go verify something that YOU brought up is rude and definitely against normal rules of civilized debate. Asking someone to do a little research or reading is not wrong but it should be up to you to guide us to the place where we can do such reading.

Remote viewing has been thoroughly discredited. The DoD and CIA stopped their research into this area because it wasn't demonstrating any actual benefit. I would give you a link to prove what I said but I'm sure you can google it yourself, right?

 

[Padawanbater2]

However, if someone can, let's say, walk on water, it's best not demonstrate that. Even today, or I should say, especially today, that person would be seen as in the demon state and very dire trouble for him, one way or another. It would be not be worth it, right? History proves that.

What would that matter if you were the creator of the universe? If your goal is to prove you're the Messiah, and you go walking on water to prove it and somebody says you're a demon, simply do something else Jesus did back in the day, feed a crowd of 10,000 with a single loaf of bread, water to wine, any of them.. maybe even take a modern day request?

 

[mindphuk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha

I have met Steve Shaw who now goes by the name Banachek, many times. I think I have everything he has published. The guy is very creative. He continues to fool the pants off people that know all of the normal tricks. He still tells some great stories from his Project Alpha days.

 

[mindphuk]

What would that matter if you were the creator of the universe? If your goal is to prove you're the Messiah, and you go walking on water to prove it and somebody says you're a demon, simply do something else Jesus did back in the day, feed a crowd of 10,000 with a single loaf of bread, water to wine, any of them.. maybe even take a modern day request?

The interesting thing is that Yahweh tells his followers not to follow someone because of the miracles they can do as they could be a false prophet that Yahweh himself has sent to the people to test them. This is why it is so ironic when Xians use the miracles of Jesus to support that he was who he says he was.

If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents,
and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, "Let us follow other gods" (whom you have not known) "and let us serve them,"
you must not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
Deut 13:1-3

 

[tyler.durden]

Mary put out like every other woman has since the beginning of time! She laid on her back, spread her legs and Joe dropped seed. Immaculate conception my ass. More like an immaculate lie !!!

“Which is more likely: That the whole natural order was suspended or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?” - Christopher Hitchens

 

[tyler.durden]

You shouldn't be worried about educating me. The questions I am asking have easy answers, and you should have asked them yourself. You brought up some half remembered bogus hype and now you expect our brains to be impressed. If it was so wideley reported it would be easy to provide a link for us, yet you have now doged this request three times.

I already know which studies you speak of, because when I was curious about remote vewing, I asked question and sought answers. The program you speak of was called Project Stargate, it had a reported budget of 20 million which it depleted, and was subsequently abandoned after 24 years due to lack of results. The remote viewers had complete control over the testing conditions, and still failed. The participants have all gone public and gave accounts of their activities. None of them are being paid by the government currently, none have been kidnapped or mysteriously disappeared. The government is no longer interested in these people nor concerned with what they reveal about their time on the project. Does this sound like a successful program?

An independent government panel was assigned to study the merit of project stargate. This is their conclusion.





The most outspoken participant is Joseph McMoneagle, who likes to use his time on the project as a way to give credit to his abilities. (even though he doesn't deny the project ended with the government being disinterested, the government wouldn't fund any more research, ect) Joseph agreed to be tested on a TV show. He was asked to find a girl who producers told to go to one of four possible locations.



As you can see, his remote viewing revealed nothing definitive. This was the star of the project, who had complete control over the conditions of the project, and who admits the project failed, failing yet again.

As ginja already pointed out, we only have to look at project alpha to see how magicians tricks can easily be used to supply the results needed to simulate remote viewing. Banachek can pass the remote viewing test every time, difference is he doesn't claim to be psychic at all, just good at deception. These tricks may be enough to keep researchers interested for quite a while, but because they are tricks, they never reveal anything useful, never provide actual external knowledge.

Would you like to continue to call me willfully ignorant and chide me for lack of research?

And since you brought up debate rules, it seems you need to familiarize yourself with the concept of Burden of Proof.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project
http://www.skepdic.com/remotevw.html

Damn! overgrowem = Pwned...

 

[overgrowem]

You shouldn't be worried about educating me. The questions I am asking have easy answers, and you should have asked them yourself. You brought up some half remembered bogus hype and now you expect our brains to be impressed. If it was so wideley reported it would be easy to provide a link for us, yet you have now doged this request three times.

I already know which studies you speak of, because when I was curious about remote vewing, I asked question and sought answers. The program you speak of was called Project Stargate, it had a reported budget of 20 million which it depleted, and was subsequently abandoned after 24 years due to lack of results. The remote viewers had complete control over the testing conditions, and still failed. The participants have all gone public and gave accounts of their activities. None of them are being paid by the government currently, none have been kidnapped or mysteriously disappeared. The government is no longer interested in these people nor concerned with what they reveal about their time on the project. Does this sound like a successful program?

An independent government panel was assigned to study the merit of project stargate. This is their conclusion.





The most outspoken participant is Joseph McMoneagle, who likes to use his time on the project as a way to give credit to his abilities. (even though he doesn't deny the project ended with the government being disinterested, the government wouldn't fund any more research, ect) Joseph agreed to be tested on a TV show. He was asked to find a girl who could be in four possible locations.



As you can see, his remote viewing revealed nothing definitive. This was the star of the project, who had complete control over the conditions of the project, and who admits the project failed, failing yet again.

As ginja already pointed out, we only have to look at project alpha to see how magicians tricks can easily be used to supply the results needed to simulate remote viewing. Banachek can pass the remote viewing test every time, difference is he doesn't claim to be psychic at all, just good at deception. These tricks may be enough to keep researchers interested for quite a while, but because they are tricks, the never reveal anything useful, never provide actual external knowledge.

Would you like to continue to call me willfully ignorant and chide me for lack of research?

And since you brought up debate rules, it seems you need to familiarize yourself with the concept of Burden of Proof.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project
http://www.skepdic.com/remotevw.html

................CIA.run project Stargate yielded considerable scientific evidence for the reality of the phenomenon"...."Growing #s of individuals could be found to demonstrate high Quality remote viewing such as Hellen Hammond"....In 2nd yr.Pat Price was assigned to provide data on a soviet site of operational significance...."Several details conserning the technology of the Soviet Palatinsk site appear to dovetail with data from other sources".It was noted this was not the projects greatest success.Didn't locate the plane but it is out there.I do not believe your cut and paste indicated the phenom was fake ,bogus or did not exist,just that it was not up to a very high standard but does not question the phenominas ACTUAL EXISTANCE.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

Like I asked before, what is the value of having this ability if you can't prove it? What's the difference from you saying "I have a friend who can read minds, but he doesn't want the attention, so he doesn't show many people.." and me saying "I have a friend who can fly, but he doesn't want the attention, so he doesn't show many people..."? There is no fundamental difference, both statements are meaningless.

Carl Sagan's invisible dragon bit tackles that exact problem. Alonzo Harris said it best;

http://www.hark.com/clips/bcjkxjmkvz-its-not-what-you-know-its-what-you-can-prove


Religious testimonies sound similar to what you described because other humans, also with the exact same built in flaws that we discussed earlier, have them. The flaws originated during our evolution, everybody else has them as well. It takes knowledge and awareness of the tricks your mind is capable of playing to recognize and understand them so you're better equipped to see through them to what reality actually is. My mind plays tricks on me every day, I just know what to look out for and know not to base my thoughts on emotions or not to jump to any irrational conclusions. You have the exact same ability, you just have to pay attention and train yourself.

So your saying even if I am telling the truth and my friend can do what he says he can do, it doesnt mean anything unless he does it for a scientist? ...*shakes head* Theres really no convincing people with your mindset unless you experience it first hand, but even then you would try to convince yourself that your mind is playing tricks on you, because you are convinced that everything witnessed that was said to be supernatural is a trick of the mind.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

However, if someone can, let's say, walk on water, it's best not demonstrate that. Even today, or I should say, especially today, that person would be seen as in the demon state and very dire trouble for him, one way or another. It would be not be worth it, right? History proves that.

Thats partly the reason my friend doesnt want a bunch of attention, they would ask him if hes associated with Jesus or w.e and then he would announce his disgust for Christianity (because I know he would lol) and then an army of bible thumpers are chasing him with torches and pitch forks.

 

[mindphuk]

So your saying even if I am telling the truth and my friend can do what he says he can do, it doesnt mean anything unless he does it for a scientist? ...*shakes head*

No. A scientist does not need to be involved. However, you are correct, claims do not mean anything to a person that has not or cannot have that experience. They are merely claims and there is no way to differentiate between something that actually happened to you and something completely fabricated or anything in-between. Why do you find this concept so wrong?

Theres really no convincing people with your mindset unless you experience it first hand

I would bet a large sum of money that you would hold this exact same skeptical approach with many other claims. In fact you continually have dismissed the claims of many Xians that have experienced Jesus working in their life and attribute that to another cause.

but even then you would try to convince yourself that your mind is playing tricks on you, because you are convinced that everything witnessed that was said to be supernatural is a trick of the mind.

This is untrue and a strawman. If you can demonstrate something under appropriate controlled conditions, I would have no option but to accept it as reality. However, I would no go so far as to label it supernatural. I would still consider many phenomena like forms of ESP natural until proven otherwise.