AeroJunkie's High Pressure Air-Assisted Hydro-Atomized Aeroponic System (HPAAHAAS)

[aerojunkie]

Brain Fart or Brain dead?

I have tried this before as a back up to my HPA (to keep pod damp and oxygenated), but now taking it to another level. It may replace the need for air assist, which seems to have it's own set of issues.

I am experimenting with larger diaphragm pump (15L/min, which is too small, probably need ~4Xs that) with 4 air stones in a water bath/tray inside the pod that is slightly smaller than the perimeter of the pod. This to provide maximum surface area to create oxygenated bubbles.

So how do you think it would work to have a water tray inside the pod running 24/7. Above it (but below the mist heads) would be a large semi-flat surface to catch the falling nutes. I think it should be V shaped to allow the oxygenated air to rise above it. It would be slightly smaller than the inside perimeter of the pod, allowing the oxygenated air to reach the root area keeping the area/roots humid, but not wet. I would expect the flat surface to catch >90% of the nutes, and be tilted towards the drain hole to carry the falling nutes to waste, and not be captured in the tray. By itself, it could also be a 21st Century aero system

Anybody?

I'm not sure I completely follow your design. Is your water tray there only to create an area for air stones to introduce O2 into the chamber? If that is the case I'm not too sure It would make a huge difference in the O2 taken in by the roots. I am not too sure what levels of O2 are required for plant sustainability. IMO any chamber no matter what size is going to have a higher O2 level than that of soil or DWC. Diffusion is a fairly rapid process and I don't have any reason to think the O2 levels inside a chamber would not closely reflect the levels outside. Which should almost always be more that that of soil.

It has recently been my experience that even a suspended fog does not do much for the plants which makes me question the RH required in a chamber. If your mist is of the appropriate size and duration, I am curious as to the benefit of increasing or decreasing the RH.

 

[tree farmer]

Your design looks very thought out for just a preliminary test chamber. You have 4 solenoids placed up top, how many nozzles are you using and are they hago, delevan, or bete/spraying systems nozzles? Did you position the spray facing horizontally or vertically?

I have come to the conclusion that i will need to add more nozzles in order to get the coverage needed in such a large chamber. What are the dimensions of your actual chamber space in this unit? I understand your need for a deep chamber, and it appears you have accomplished that. But for multiple plants are you planning to have individual chambers for each or would you consider a single chamber for say 2-4+ plants?

Aj
here is a video of my AA nozzle firing, just one nozzle. the size of this test chamber is 14 wide by 28 by 36 deep. now this mist looks nice but didnt work worth a shit for the roots. the droplet size was to small and even though the mist hung in the chamber it performed poorly at this setting. my nozzle is facing vertically in the test chamber but it isnt ideal this way so in the full system im ging to go with 2 nozzles mounted on the side of the chamber that will be adjustable right and left and up and down to a distance of about 1 ft either direction. also im not going to go with a deep chamber like the test chamber because i dont think depth matters much as the roots hit the silkscreen bottom no matter what and just crawl the walls if a mesh is attached.
i just wanted a deep chamber for testing. ive done a 4 plant hydraulic system. the chamber is in my albums. but im going to go with indivdual pods for a AA tree system.
i have 4 selonoids because 2 of the selonoids are for the hydraulic backup nozzles. if the air pressure falls below a certain psi the system switches to the hydraulic nozzles as a backup. the hydraulics are hooked to a 230psi accumulator regulated down to 100 psi so the hydraulics could fire the pod for days if the air compressor or any part of the air system failed. the nozzle is a internal mix full cone spray system with a manual clean out out button. there nozzles are great because you can change just the cap and basically have a completly differnt nozzle. so the possiblities are endless for flowrates and droplet sizes ans spray patterns all by just switching the caps out. takes 30 seconds. of coarse the nozzles are expensive but given the endless possibilites you can achieve by just switching a small cap i feel they are the best out there.

the air and solution are both temp controlled as the lines run thru a water bath (the big square thing on top of the pod) I can chill the air and solution down to 50 degrees if i want before sending it into the chamber(60 ft of copper tubing for the air and 30 ft for the solution are coiled in the water bath). the water bath is chilled using a peltier cooler. IMHO chamber temps are very important as ive always had the best and healthiest roots when chamber temps were kept no higher than 68 degrees. chilling the air and water made it easy to keep the pod temp under control. i also have 3 inches of insulation around the pod and the lid.

your roots do look very unhappy. the browning and dead spots could be any number of problems. but the cloner roots look alot like roots that are grown in fog. i wont even try and diagnos the problem as it just looks like a whole bunch of different issues. i dont know your ppm levels but i never have run above 600ppm on a .5 scale meter and this is with trees 5 ft square and 5 ft tall. i did have some problems in the AA test chamber getting the ppm level dead on but i never ran long enough to get it sorted out completly. the levels i used in the hydraulic HP setups wasnt quite right for the AA so i know ill need to do some more work to get it sorted out as AA seems to need something a little different.

I know it can be frustrating blazing the trail as there isnt anyone to turn to for answers but just keep trying to get it sorted out and eventually youll find the answer. One thing i learned from the plug and play pods was never be afraid to think or do something completly out of the norm. who would think that a 2sec pulse every 10 to 30 minutes is what grew beatiful roots and plants in that system. thinking out of the box is whats needed when working at the forefront.



http://www.datafilehost.com/download-86be7dab.html

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Brain Fart or Brain dead?

I have tried this before as a back up to my HPA (to keep pod damp and oxygenated), but now taking it to another level. It may replace the need for air assist, which seems to have it's own set of issues.

I am experimenting with larger diaphragm pump (15L/min, which is too small, probably need ~4Xs that) with 4 air stones in a water bath/tray inside the pod that is slightly smaller than the perimeter of the pod. This to provide maximum surface area to create oxygenated bubbles.

So how do you think it would work to have a water tray inside the pod running 24/7. Above it (but below the mist heads) would be a large semi-flat surface to catch the falling nutes. I think it should be V shaped to allow the oxygenated air to rise above it. It would be slightly smaller than the inside perimeter of the pod, allowing the oxygenated air to reach the root area keeping the area/roots humid, but not wet. I would expect the flat surface to catch >90% of the nutes, and be tilted towards the drain hole to carry the falling nutes to waste, and not be captured in the tray. By itself, it could also be a 21st Century aero system

Anybody?

You must be doing something right that got you real stoned- that's for damn sure!

 

[aerojunkie]

Aj
here is a video of my AA nozzle firing, just one nozzle. the size of this test chamber is 14 wide by 28 by 36 deep. now this mist looks nice but didnt work worth a shit for the roots. the droplet size was to small and even though the mist hung in the chamber it performed poorly at this setting. my nozzle is facing vertically in the test chamber but it isnt ideal this way so in the full system im ging to go with 2 nozzles mounted on the side of the chamber that will be adjustable right and left and up and down to a distance of about 1 ft either direction. also im not going to go with a deep chamber like the test chamber because i dont think depth matters much as the roots hit the silkscreen bottom no matter what and just crawl the walls if a mesh is attached.
i just wanted a deep chamber for testing. ive done a 4 plant hydraulic system. the chamber is in my albums. but im going to go with indivdual pods for a AA tree system.
i have 4 selonoids because 2 of the selonoids are for the hydraulic backup nozzles. if the air pressure falls below a certain psi the system switches to the hydraulic nozzles as a backup. the hydraulics are hooked to a 230psi accumulator regulated down to 100 psi so the hydraulics could fire the pod for days if the air compressor or any part of the air system failed. the nozzle is a internal mix full cone spray system with a manual clean out out button. there nozzles are great because you can change just the cap and basically have a completly differnt nozzle. so the possiblities are endless for flowrates and droplet sizes ans spray patterns all by just switching the caps out. takes 30 seconds. of coarse the nozzles are expensive but given the endless possibilites you can achieve by just switching a small cap i feel they are the best out there.

the air and solution are both temp controlled as the lines run thru a water bath (the big square thing on top of the pod) I can chill the air and solution down to 50 degrees if i want before sending it into the chamber(60 ft of copper tubing for the air and 30 ft for the solution are coiled in the water bath). the water bath is chilled using a peltier cooler. IMHO chamber temps are very important as ive always had the best and healthiest roots when chamber temps were kept no higher than 68 degrees. chilling the air and water made it easy to keep the pod temp under control. i also have 3 inches of insulation around the pod and the lid.

your roots do look very unhappy. the browning and dead spots could be any number of problems. but the cloner roots look alot like roots that are grown in fog. i wont even try and diagnos the problem as it just looks like a whole bunch of different issues. i dont know your ppm levels but i never have run above 600ppm on a .5 scale meter and this is with trees 5 ft square and 5 ft tall. i did have some problems in the AA test chamber getting the ppm level dead on but i never ran long enough to get it sorted out completly. the levels i used in the hydraulic HP setups wasnt quite right for the AA so i know ill need to do some more work to get it sorted out as AA seems to need something a little different.

I know it can be frustrating blazing the trail as there isnt anyone to turn to for answers but just keep trying to get it sorted out and eventually youll find the answer. One thing i learned from the plug and play pods was never be afraid to think or do something completly out of the norm. who would think that a 2sec pulse every 10 to 30 minutes is what grew beatiful roots and plants in that system. thinking out of the box is whats needed when working at the forefront.



http://www.datafilehost.com/download-86be7dab.html

Thanks for the detailed description of your rig and your support as well. From what you described we are using the same nozzles. The air and fluid caps on my nozzles are also interchangeable and variable. My deepest chamber is 36" but I have yet to test it. I like your idea of incorporating a redundant hydraulic system to prevent plant loss in the event of compressor failure. During my start up phase I was running my system for 1 week prior to adding plants and I actually had my accumulator fail on me due to an air leak in my supply line. I have since thought of adding both a water and air supply backup source. However my crops are no where near valuable enough to justify the expense.

I do not chill my chambers in any way other than keeping my compressor and reservoir in the garage during winter. Which is the only time I grow. Res temps are 55 degrees average and air remains fairly cold as well.

The main issue I had with the roots is I had recently switched my clone chamber from hydraulic to AAA but I only placed a single nozzle in the chamber. Once the roots grew large enough they cut off supply to the rest of the plants. I have since added another nozzle and I am going to run a short cycle through the chamber to test results.

but the cloner roots look alot like roots that are grown in fog.

Do you mean the veg roots?

My PPM has never exceeded 500. I haven't yet felt a need to pump it above this level. But when it comes to the required amount of dissolved solids, I lack in knowledge as my thumb has always been a little more yellow than green.

Once again I appreciate your involvement and your support, your right it would be nice to go to someone with all the answers but nevertheless I think you can agree that its a bit more rewarding when you solve the issues on your own. Your welcome here anytime TF.

 

[PetFlora]

My interest is for the seedlings/clones stage using a DIY bubbler, where the greater the amount of tiny bubbles breaking the surface the more O2/nutrient rich the air space above to feed the young developing roots. I am currently using a 15L/min pump (4 head manifold)with 4 Oxy Stones. I plan on replacing it with Dual Diaphragm pump. Prior to this, I was using an Elite 802 (2 heads) and noted very good root development, but nothing like this. 2 days ago, this plant had no visible roots exiting the net pot! I just transferred it to the HPA to keep its' sister company.

.View attachment 2010571 View attachment 2010572 This is the one I am babysitting, and took 4 clones from

Here's some support documentation that I came across after I intuited the idea, but the proof is in the pudding:

While an air pump tube alone can bubble air into a nutrient solution, oxygenation or the process of getting atmospheric oxygen dissolved into the liquid nutrient, is much more effective where many tiny bubbles of air are created, rather than a slow stream of larger bubbles. The greater the surface contact between the air bubbles and the nutrient, the more oxygen will diffuse into the nutrient solution and smaller bubbles create a far greater surface area than a few larger bubbles will. The further the bubbles have to travel to reach the surface of the nutrient, the more time oxygen has to diffuse into the liquid and the higher the rates of dissolved oxygen than can be obtained from an air pump and stone set up.

AJ this might help you figure out what's happening

On the other hand, cool air has the ability to reduce the temperature of the nutrient if sufficient levels are pumped in and thus result in a much more highly oxygenated solution for the plant’s roots. If keeping the nutrient solution temperature down seems to be a continual problem, checking the air inlet temperature of an air pump is a good idea. Overly warm nutrient solutions (ideally nutrient solutions should remain below 65 - 75 F) for most warm season, high light plants and well below 69 F for cool season.can have serious effects on the plants root system. Apart from the increased oxygen requirement due to a much higher rate of root respiration which can rapidly result in oxygen starvation, high solution temperatures favour many of the root disease pathogens. Plant roots become highly 'stressed' when experiencing high temperatures, particularly if there is a large mis-match between the air the root temperature. Root stress slows the development of new roots, resulting in reserves inside the root tissue being `burned up’ during respiration faster than they are accumulated, and stress makes the root system in general more susceptible to disease attack. Keeping a check on nutrient temperature is vital, as is ensuring that air machines are not blasting hot air into the solution and cooking plant roots. Aeration is most effective when cool air is bubbled into a nutrient.

Conclusion

While providing oxygenation with the use of air pumps and stones is an excellent method of increasing the dissolved oxygen (DO) levels in a nutrient solution, the temperature of the air intake and nutrient solution must also be managed to ensure oxygen starvation in the root zone does not occur. Pumping hot air into a nutrient not only creates temperature stress in the root zone, it also results in less oxygen carrying capacity in the solution itself - a recipe for root suffocation that will rapidly affect the top portion of the plant as well. Getting oxygenation right means checking both aeration capacity of the equipment being chosen and temperatures in the nutrient and root zone.

 

[DIYer]

While an air pump tube alone can bubble air into a nutrient solution, oxygenation or the process of getting atmospheric oxygen dissolved into the liquid nutrient, is much more effective where many tiny bubbles of air are created, rather than a slow stream of larger bubbles. The greater the surface contact between the air bubbles and the nutrient, the more oxygen will diffuse into the nutrient solution and smaller bubbles create a far greater surface area than a few larger bubbles will. The further the bubbles have to travel to reach the surface of the nutrient, the more time oxygen has to diffuse into the liquid and the higher the rates of dissolved oxygen than can be obtained from an air pump and stone set up.

On the other hand, cool air has the ability to reduce the temperature of the nutrient if sufficient levels are pumped in and thus result in a much more highly oxygenated solution for the plant’s roots. If keeping the nutrient solution temperature down seems to be a continual problem, checking the air inlet temperature of an air pump is a good idea. Overly warm nutrient solutions (ideally nutrient solutions should remain below 65 - 75 F) for most warm season, high light plants and well below 69 F for cool season.can have serious effects on the plants root system. Apart from the increased oxygen requirement due to a much higher rate of root respiration which can rapidly result in oxygen starvation, high solution temperatures favour many of the root disease pathogens. Plant roots become highly 'stressed' when experiencing high temperatures, particularly if there is a large mis-match between the air the root temperature. Root stress slows the development of new roots, resulting in reserves inside the root tissue being `burned up’ during respiration faster than they are accumulated, and stress makes the root system in general more susceptible to disease attack. Keeping a check on nutrient temperature is vital, as is ensuring that air machines are not blasting hot air into the solution and cooking plant roots. Aeration is most effective when cool air is bubbled into a nutrient.

Conclusion

While providing oxygenation with the use of air pumps and stones is an excellent method of increasing the dissolved oxygen (DO) levels in a nutrient solution, the temperature of the air intake and nutrient solution must also be managed to ensure oxygen starvation in the root zone does not occur. Pumping hot air into a nutrient not only creates temperature stress in the root zone, it also results in less oxygen carrying capacity in the solution itself - a recipe for root suffocation that will rapidly affect the top portion of the plant as well. Getting oxygenation right means checking both aeration capacity of the equipment being chosen and temperatures in the nutrient and root zone.

Was recently reading this recently,...
http://www.hydroempire.com/store/hydroponic-oxygen.php

Plants use lots of oxygen. 45% of a dried plant consists of oxygen atoms. I Plants are not that much different from humans in that they need the same I fresh air as people do. Cell for cell, plant cells use similar amounts of oxygen as human cells do. In conditions where the air is poor or contains i less than 20% oxygen, plants will not do well.

The leaves have easy access to oxygen because they are making it and breathing it out as a by-product of photosynthesis. However, the roots struggle to find enough oxygen (in advanced gardens, most of the air for the roots is supplied aeroponically or with multiple aerators). lack of oxygen at the roots reduces root respiration, and this is one of the factors that shut down photosynthesis.

Very cold fresh water can hold up to 0.0014% (14 PPM or 14 mglL) dissolved oxygen. Fresh water at room temperature can only hold about 0.0008% (8 PPM or 8 mglL) dissolved oxygen. Fresh water at 86°F (30oe) holds about 0.0005% (5 PPM or 5 mglL) dissolved oxygen. DO meters (dissolved oxygen meters) are available for measuring the amount of dissolved oxygen in nutrient solutions.

The oxygen directly from the nutrient solution is only 1 % of the plants needs, and nutrient oxygenation is not sufficient for any water culture. If the roots in water culture are not given most of their time for breathing air, they will soon brown and become sick.

Nutrient water is only a minor source of root oxygen. The main reason we oxygenate the nutrient mix with air pumps and stones is to kill off all the pathogens that can not live in air, called anaerobes. This method keeps the nutrient fresh for a long time. It is also the reason why we add hydrogen peroxide (H202) to the nutrient water.
Oxygen at the roots has another very important function. The oxygen changes the electrical charges in the water and nutrients, and allows the roots to extract water and nutrients with much less energy. For this reason, the roots need as much oxygen as they can get.

Aerated water will accept 0.0005 - 0.0008% oxygen and hold it for about 24 hours, which is a lot less than that available in air. This is why direct aeration of the roots (aeroponics) is better because it provides so much oxygen to the roots, the plant will actually grow a lot better.

Now if even half of the above is true, (and given it came from a hydro store feel free to only believe half), i think you're way too concerned with how much oxygen you're getting into your res solution. Recently i've been thinking, a slow but constant exchange of oxygen in the root chamber might be the way to go. Once i made a grow rig where, using pc fans, i sucked the air from a sprinkler filled res to blow onto the plants above, and i grew some of the whitest roots ever. My intent at the time was to humidify the top of the plant using the bottom, but i think my roots were so good then because of my level of oxygen exchange in the root zone area. A lot of us are doing "aero'ponics technically,.. but how many of us are changing the air in whatever we're keeping out roots in? I grow in 5 gal buckets myself, and until today, when i started to think of this all, i know i sure don't lift my bucket lids and exchanged the air inside often, lol

 

[PetFlora]

Makes sense to me. I often lift the lid on my hpa, and also have some air holes from moving the mist heads around. Do you have fan placed in a cut out on the lid, between plants? Do you run it constantly with lights on, or do you cycle it throughout the day?


Once i made a grow rig where, using pc fans, i sucked the air from a sprinkler filled res to blow onto the plants above, and i grew some of the whitest roots ever. My intent at the time was to humidify the top of the plant using the bottom, but i think my roots were so good then because of my level of oxygen exchange in the root zone area. A lot of us are doing "aero'ponics technically,.. but how many of us are changing the air in whatever we're keeping out roots in? I grow in 5 gal buckets myself, and until today, when i started to think of this all, i know i sure don't lift my bucket lids and exchanged the air inside often, lol

 

[DIYer]

i don't grow in that rig anymore, im working in 14 5gal buckets atm,.. 100psi HPA, no acc. but no real circulation in the buckets and that can't be good.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

i don't grow in that rig anymore, im working in 14 5gal buckets atm,.. 100psi HPA, no acc. but no real circulation in the buckets and that can't be good.

I believe some oxygen comes out of the water when misting. It's just a guess. Also, when I tried to put a pc fan on my lid to ventilate for heat reasons, my roots started looking like crap in that particular case. Luckily in AJ's case, he is using AA which injects fresh air with each mist pulse. If anything, the amount of o2 you'd need to add to a chamber, could come from something as small as an air-stone, and that's IF it's even necessary. I like tree farmer and Atomizer's roots, and they never added air when they used hydraulic that I know of.

 

[PetFlora]

DIYer: I guess you missed my question: Do (did) you have fan placed in a cut out on the lid (high up on the side perhaps?), between plants? Do you run it constantly with lights on, or do you cycle it throughout the day?

 

[DIYer]

PT..
...not important how i had that old rig setup, but just for the record, i sucked air from the side of a tote i had the roots hanging in, and pumped it onto the leaves. It was recirculating, i used sprinklers, it never got really hairy roots due to that fact, but they were healthy and long. Just basic res air exchange is what i managed to inadvertently accomplish, and well,.. read my 'roots need oxygen too' in this forum if you want to know more what i think lately about that topic..

I believe some oxygen comes out of the water when misting. It's just a guess. Also, when I tried to put a pc fan on my lid to ventilate for heat reasons, my roots started looking like crap in that particular case. Luckily in AJ's case, he is using AA which injects fresh air with each mist pulse. If anything, the amount of o2 you'd need to add to a chamber, could come from something as small as an air-stone, and that's IF it's even necessary. I like tree farmer and Atomizer's roots, and they never added air when they used hydraulic that I know of.

You do realize there is no way anyone, let alone anyone with an accumulator, or an AA, only misting for .3 seconds on, give or take, can think their in anyway re-oxygenating the .668 cu ft volume air inside a 5gal bucket. Not with even a 60 second on time through a .9gph mister nozzle would you exchange .7cu ft. Not to mention, the air at the bottom of the bucket is what you would want to exchange, and injecting air from the top, at least in a 5 gal bucket, wouldn't do it, it'd all go out the net pots at the top too.

I know others have gotten great results without even thinking about how much fresh air they put in there root chambers, perhaps,.. and i can see why a fan in a bucket would kill a crop, thats way too much airflow no matter how low the CFM rating of the fan was, and you, with your acc, would have to water a lot more to make up for it,.. but everyones grow being different who knows how they inadvertently got fresh air into there root areas. Maybe the fact that i don't lift my bucket lids often makes for a stagnant situation other haven't encounter. Sure some oxygen comes from the water, "Very cold fresh water can hold up to 0.0014% (14 PPM or 14 mglL) dissolved oxygen".. now if that's even close to true,.. anyone still think thats enough for roots for a few months in a 5gal bucket?

 

[Trichy Bastard]

PT..
...not important how i had that old rig setup, but just for the record, i sucked air from the side of a tote i had the roots hanging in, and pumped it onto the leaves. It was recirculating, i used sprinklers, it never got really hairy roots due to that fact, but they were healthy and long. Just basic res air exchange is what i managed to inadvertently accomplish, and well,.. read my 'roots need oxygen too' in this forum if you want to know more what i think lately about that topic..



You do realize there is no way anyone, let alone anyone with an accumulator, or an AA, only misting for .3 seconds on, give or take, can think their in anyway re-oxygenating the .668 cu ft volume air inside a 5gal bucket. Not with even a 60 second on time through a .9gph mister nozzle would you exchange .7cu ft. Not to mention, the air at the bottom of the bucket is what you would want to exchange, and injecting air from the top, at least in a 5 gal bucket, wouldn't do it, it'd all go out the net pots at the top too.

I know others have gotten great results without even thinking about how much fresh air they put in there root chambers, perhaps,.. and i can see why a fan in a bucket would kill a crop, thats way too much airflow no matter how low the CFM rating of the fan was, and you, with your acc, would have to water a lot more to make up for it,.. but everyones grow being different who knows how they inadvertently got fresh air into there root areas. Maybe the fact that i don't lift my bucket lids often makes for a stagnant situation other haven't encounter. Sure some oxygen comes from the water, "Very cold fresh water can hold up to 0.0014% (14 PPM or 14 mglL) dissolved oxygen".. now if that's even close to true,.. anyone still think thats enough for roots for a few months in a 5gal bucket?

I see your point, however pure oxygen is only a smaller portion of the earth's atmoshpere, so you'd only need to supplement the 20% or so of it. The mist bursts are short, but also quite often (every few minutes). The environment is not hermetically sealed, so I suppose there can be some gas exchange. I doubt the plants use very much o2 at the roots, but it just has to be accessible to them (as in not having to go through a barrier of nutrient film on the roots). Imagine how an airstone supplements all the air a plant needs in a res like bubbleponics, and 99% of the air from that stone floats up to the top of the water and doesn't saturate the liquid, otherwise the bubbles would mostly dissolve in solution before they reached the surface. I'm sure the most you'd need is a single air stone's worth of fresh air pumping in, but like I said- people seem to have good results without it, so I don't see a need to go to the effort unless you have some sort of symptoms that need adressing. If someone could so a side by side comparison, would be interesting, where one chamber has an air stone, and the other doesn't.

 

[DIYer]

I see your point, however pure oxygen is only a smaller portion of the earth's atmoshpere, so you'd only need to supplement the 20% or so of it.

Who's talking about, or has "pure oxygen"? ... If the air is in need of being exchanged, you'd need to replace all the air since, all any of us have is regular old air to put in its place.

The mist bursts are short, but also quite often (every few minutes).

You know what your system pumps out a cycle I'm sure, so do the math, no offense but i have, and you're wasting time till you do as well. Even if your misters blew 100% air you wouldn't even scratch the surface of exchanging the volume of air in only a 5gal root container.

The environment is not hermetically sealed, so I suppose there can be some gas exchange.

You suppose eh?..... well then i suppose you should realize it doesn't matter one bit if something is hermetically sealed or not, a 5gal bucket with a lid on it is not getting fresh oxygen in it and you know that. I really don't get why you'd play devils advocate here.

I doubt the plants use very much o2 at the roots,...

You doubt,.. you suppose,.. why don't you come with facts like i posted links to. Which i don't think you took the time to read and comprehend or you would know that roots get 99% of there oxygen from the immediate air around them.

but it just has to be accessible to them

...and how is it accessible in a shut 5gal bucket for 4 months?

Imagine how an airstone supplements all the air a plant needs

Sorry, wrong again. But if 'bubbleponics' (or DWC as its really called) supplies a plant roots with all the oxygen it needs, then why'd you go aero?.. The point of this concept is obviously go past what plants can do normally.

I'm sure the most you'd need is a single air stone's worth of fresh air pumping in

If you pump air in you're going to fill your grow room with high RH, and probably a little smelly air, which we all know is not good for THC production levels. If done right air should be sucked from the buckets, treated with a carbon filter, and removed from the grow space entirely.

but like I said- people seem to have good results without it

people have success in soil too, i don't se you tossing out your precious acc, lol

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Who's talking about, or has "pure oxygen"? ... If the air is in need of being exchanged, you'd need to replace all the air since, all any of us have is regular old air to put in its place. If the only gas the roots utilize it o2, then that's all that needs replacing. The rest is just viewed as a "mixer" to the roots as long as it doesn't contain voc's or toxic gas.


You know what your system pumps out a cycle I'm sure, so do the math, no offense but i have, and you're wasting time till you do as well. Even if your misters blew 100% air you wouldn't even scratch the surface of exchanging the volume of air in only a 5gal root container. Like I said, I don't see a need to exchange all of the air, just the oxygen replenished as the roots utilize it. Why you seem to see it different baffles me.


You suppose eh?..... well then i suppose you should realize it doesn't matter one bit if something is hermetically sealed or not, a 5gal bucket with a lid on it is not getting fresh oxygen in it and you know that. I really don't get why you'd play devils advocate here. Well, I am using words like "suppose" because I want to admit I do not know for sure, I believe my thinking is sound, but my mind is open if you can show me otherwise.


You doubt,.. you suppose,.. why don't you come with facts like i posted links to. Which i don't think you took the time to read and comprehend or you would know that roots get 99% of there oxygen from the immediate air around them. Understood, but because "they get 99%" doesn't give any reference to how much that amount actually is. Perhaps we should try to find out, or do some of our own testing. The reason aero helps, is that the roots aren't sealed up with a layer of fluid, so the oxygen that is in the chamber is more available to them. Don't forget, plants evolved in the soil, so how much do you think they're really getting in there? Some for sure, but I doubt immersing them in 100% oxygen will benefit them in a way they can use.


...and how is it accessible in a shut 5gal bucket for 4 months?
Air moves through small cracks, the mist itself displaces a certain volume- as you mentioned, and as you know, water is made of 2 hydrogen atoms, and one oxygen, so in theory, it is 1/3 pure oxygen. If the atomic bond ever breaks, and some o2 is liberated, I am not sure, but we do know that water is capable of carrying some levels of pure oxygen that is likely freed in the misting. It might just be enough to supplement all of the plants requirements to maximum potential, but again, I do not know. Why don't we try to find out.

Sorry, wrong again. But if 'bubbleponics' (or DWC as its really called) supplies a plant roots with all the oxygen it needs, then why'd you go aero?.. The point of this concept is obviously go past what plants can do normally. It seems your trying to take me quite literally, the point is that bubbleponics can grow plants, and an aero chamber probably supplies alot more o2 by the very nature of it(no I haven't measured it). I am not saying you're wrong, as you seem to like to say it to me, but i am trying to offer my thoughts and observations, along with my own thinking and theory. So far you haven't presented any proof that I see to back up your argument, so right now were just 2 guys talking about what we "think". I don't mean to come across as if your theory is wrong, just saying I do believe that plants in aero chambers get a very adequate amount of oxygen to the roots, whether this can be taken to the next level, is interesting, and I am willing to explore the idea.


If you pump air in you're going to fill your grow room with high RH, and probably a little smelly air, which we all know is not good for THC production levels. If done right air should be sucked from the buckets, treated with a carbon filter, and removed from the grow space entirely. I don't know anything about "smelly" air hindering thc production, enlighten me. I grow outdoors, so none of this applies to my situation. Of course there are always more details in how to best do something, but I was only proposing an idea of how to make sure there is a small amount of air exchange that wouldn't hair-dry the roots.



people have success in soil too, i don't se you tossing out your precious acc, lol

Anyway, we either neet to ferret out some information on the subject, or conduct some of our own trials if you think it's worth trying. Not sure if you mean to come across in a sort of attacking way, but that's how I read it. I don't work that way. So you'll never get a rise out of me. It is alot more pleasant dealing in a constructive environment however. After all, were all here for knowledge I assume.

 

[PetFlora]

One of the things I did was to put a 1.5" vent (elbow) on the top and blowing a small fan across it to suck out the hot air. There are a few holes here and therearound the side walls, from moving the mist head assembly around.

That worked pretty well, (preinsulating the top) significantly reducing RH inside the pod. A couple grows back I tried a shallow tray bubbler inside (DIYer, just because someone uses air stones does not automatically define it as DWC: see cloners/seedling starters), but it was more for a backup as I was having issues delivering the nutes.

I bought my parts to try this again. If it doesn't do anything significant now (cooler months) I will need it for when the temps heat up

 

[DIYer]

lol,... not 'smelly' air ... higher RH air is whats not ideal for the highest levels of thc production, but obviously in your outdoor grow you don't worry about that. But i wouldn't want to smell humid stale root zone air in my grow room, and thus why if pumping "air" NOT oxygen (because like i said, no ones got an oxygen tank there hooking to there aero setup, nor should they), into the buckets would be a bad idea. It would need to be vacuumed from the root zone, and i 'think' IF it's even worth trying at all, it'd be best to suck it slowly, from the bottom, which would draw in fresh air to the root zones constantly from the holes in the top without drying them.

Do you guys running DTW aerate your res solution? Given some of the facts I've read about hoe much oxygen water can hold, i tend to wonder if its worth the time/money to do so,.. thoughts?

 

[Trichy Bastard]

it'd be best to suck it slowly, from the bottom

Be my guest

 

[Trichy Bastard]

lol,... not 'smelly' air ... higher RH air is whats not ideal for the highest levels of thc production, but obviously in your outdoor grow you don't worry about that. But i wouldn't want to smell humid stale root zone air in my grow room, and thus why if pumping "air" NOT oxygen (because like i said, no ones got an oxygen tank there hooking to there aero setup, nor should they), into the buckets would be a bad idea. It would need to be vacuumed from the root zone, and i 'think' IF it's even worth trying at all, it'd be best to suck it slowly, from the bottom, which would draw in fresh air to the root zones constantly from the holes in the top without drying them.

Do you guys running DTW aerate your res solution? Given some of the facts I've read about hoe much oxygen water can hold, i tend to wonder if its worth the time/money to do so,.. thoughts?

Lol, sorry couldn't resist that last one... Anyway, thanks for clearing up the smelly air bit- I was like "oh brother, now I've heard it all"...

Whether you're pushing or pulling air, the result would likely be the same in terms of drying the roots. But I see what you're getting at for why you might want to evacuate it from the room for humidity reasons. Then again, perhaps some grow rooms might benefit if the humidity is a tad low to begin with. Like I said, we need to find existing info, or conduct a side by side test to see if there is any benefit to putting effort into exchanging air in the pod- but my speculation is it probably won't help anything because I believe the roots are already getting as much oxygen as they can use in the chamber already. Do you have any suggestions as to how you plan to further investigate this issue? And hopefully AJ doesn't feel this topic has been to much of a departure from his topic here.

 

[DIYer]

ha,.. ya sorry if its got off topic aj,.. ill leave this idea to the thread i started about it. Not sure still how i would accomplish this, but i talk about ideas in more detail in the, 'roots need oxygen right?...' thread i started.

So,.. Do you guys running DTW aerate your res solution? I read plant roots take so little from water, and water holds so little, makes me wonder if it helps. I currently do not aerate mine and things grow pretty fine, but always looking to improve. Just not infinitesimal amounts ya know.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

ha,.. ya sorry if its got off topic aj,.. ill leave this idea to the thread i started about it. Not sure still how i would accomplish this, but i talk about ideas in more detail in the, 'roots need oxygen right?...' thread i started here.

So,.. Do you guys running DTW aerate your res solution?

Hey- drop the link and I'll read the thread... I don't, and I doubt anyone else aereates the res- but perhaps I am assuming wrongly. Maybe we should use a carbonater setup, pump, accumulator and all, but instead of hooking up a co2 tank- use 02. That would definitely do the trick...