Top 2-3% Tax Cuts

Saltrock

Active Member
At some point, they will have taxed the last smoker out of existence and forced all the wealthy to emigrate to friendlier places, then we can all revel in our Detroit Michigan-like economic disaster comfortable in the smug satisfaction that everyone is equally miserable.


New Data: Top 1% Pay Greater Dollar Amount in Income Taxes to Federal Government than Bottom 90%

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/top-1-paid-more-in-federal-income-taxes-than-bottom-95-in-07/
Looks like we are all doomed then huh? Might as well become a survivalist and go live on canned spam in the woods. What's your grand plan how to get us out of this? Let me guess lower taxes on the 1% so they can reinvest in our country?

Peace
SALT
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
the point is that giving them an additional tax cut, like they want, is going to burden everybody else with 70 billion dollars in debt per year for the next decade.

the best way to put it is saying the rich want a bigger slice of the pie, at the expense of everybody else. everybody else will have to pay for letting the rich have more money.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
To offer some numbers: there's approx. 310 million ppl in the us. 70 billion dollars in deficit translates to 225 dollars per year. So republicans want to force everybody to pick up approx 2250 in debt over the next ten years so the rich, who are doing fantastic somehow, can have more money.


Yep, that's putting the countriy's interests before special interests.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
it is not involuntary because you can leave anytime you want. if you choose to stay, then they are voluntary. if you were forced to stay, then they would be involuntary.

i hear somalia has exceedingly low income tax levels. watch out for the warlords, though.
Nope. If the threat of violence or actual violence is employed to make a person comply with something they don't agree with it is involuntary. A person might be able to leave, that's debateable. The fact that a person would have to leave, to "escape" the initiation of force is evidence that something is not voluntary. If a person could remain somewhere, say like their home and opt in or opt out of
an ahem "service" of their volition that would be voluntary. Somalia has nothing to do with the meaning of voluntary or involuntary, you are introducing something that is irrelevant to try to advance your weak argument and rationalization.

The level or amount of extortion in an involuntary system does not change the meaning of voluntary.
 

medicineman

New Member
At some point, they will have taxed the last smoker out of existence and forced all the wealthy to emigrate to friendlier places, then we can all revel in our Detroit Michigan-like economic disaster comfortable in the smug satisfaction that everyone is equally miserable.


New Data: Top 1% Pay Greater Dollar Amount in Income Taxes to Federal Government than Bottom 90%

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/top-1-paid-more-in-federal-income-taxes-than-bottom-95-in-07/
Duh! They also make more than the bottom 85 percent, now divide that up among the 15% and tell me if you still feel sorry for them, They make 100,000+. get to the top 2-3% and you're talking 500,000+, wow, I can't understand how they could survive with that extra 3-4% tax increase, shit howdy.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
We are slowly killing the Goose that lays the golden eggs here in america with taxes.
ummm. No we aren't. Taxes are historically low right now. Just because some people complain about them being high it doesn't mean they actually are.

The rich will pack up an go somewhere with a better tax system. Taking there money an jobs with em.
Except the don't need to leave to move their jobs overseas and they've already done that.

Why do we penalize the most prospherus hard working wealthy people so strongly.
We don't. You're just wrong. The rich haven't been this prosperous since the great depression. Transferring all the country's wealth to the upper class isn't beneficial to our society.

Do you know what the tax rate for the top tax bracket was when our country was at its strongest? 90%! You need a history lesson.

Making the rich even richer doesn't create jobs. Making the middle class richer does because they are the people who buy stuff! A rich person isn't going to create a job to produce a product people can't afford to buy no matter how many tax breaks he gets.

Jobs are created because their is a demand for a service or product. Jobs aren't created based on how much wealth billionaires have. The key to a healthy economy is a strong middle class, not an ultra-wealthy class with a bunch of peasants who can't afford to purchase goods and services.

You watch too much Glenn Beck. You are horribly misinformed about the historical tax rate and the way the economy works.
 

medicineman

New Member
I really don't see how the right can mount a credible defense for the richs' tax cuts, it is entirely undefendable for any sane person.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
I really don't see how the right can mount a credible defense for the richs' tax cuts, it is entirely undefendable for any sane person.
The only reason the right gets away with with their tax cuts for the rich arguments is because people except what they are saying at face value without verifying the information.

It's sad that middle class people are being fooled by the ultra-wealthy like this. Anyone who is barely able to make house payments shouldn't be worried about the estate tax or worried that billionaires do not have enough money to create jobs in China. It's absurd.

I can't believe the level of ignorance going on. Really? Tax rates for the wealthy are too high?



How was America doing in the 40's-60's? What were the taxes like then? How was the middle class doing? How much easier was it to find a middle class job?

Back then the people who actually bought stuff in the economy, the middle class had the wealth, not the ultra wealthy. One guy earning a billion dollars is the same amount of money as 10,000 people making $100,000 dollars each. A billionare only needs to buy enough goods and services for himself and his family. 10,000 people making $100k a year buy goods and services for 10k families. A billionaire might buy 10 cars, but 10k middle class people will probably buy around 10k cars. They are also going to buy groceries for 10k families as apposed to 1.

Jobs are not created because rich people have a lot of money. Jobs are created because there is a demand for goods and services. Anyone want to make a serious claim that a guy making 1billion dollars is going to buy as much goods and services as 10k people making $100k per year? I didn't think so.

This whole feeling sorry for rich people who btw are prospering more than they have ever in the last 70 years needs to end. It's stupid.
 

medicineman

New Member
The only reason the right gets away with with their tax cuts for the rich arguments is because people except what they are saying at face value without verifying the information.

It's sad that middle class people are being fooled by the ultra-wealthy like this. Anyone who is barely able to make house payments shouldn't be worried about the estate tax or worried that billionaires do not have enough money to create jobs in China. It's absurd.

I can't believe the level of ignorance going on. Really? Tax rates for the wealthy are too high?



How was America doing in the 40's-60's? What were the taxes like then? How was the middle class doing? How much easier was it to find a middle class job?

Back then the people who actually bought stuff in the economy, the middle class had the wealth, not the ultra wealthy. One guy earning a billion dollars is the same amount of money as 10,000 people making $100,000 dollars each. A billionare only needs to buy enough goods and services for himself and his family. 10,000 people making $100k a year buy goods and services for 10k families. A billionaire might buy 10 cars, but 10k middle class people will probably buy around 10k cars. They are also going to buy groceries for 10k families as apposed to 1.

Jobs are not created because rich people have a lot of money. Jobs are created because there is a demand for goods and services. Anyone want to make a serious claim that a guy making 1billion dollars is going to buy as much goods and services as 10k people making $100k per year? I didn't think so.

This whole feeling sorry for rich people who btw are prospering more than they have ever in the last 70 years needs to end. It's stupid.
Yeah, I notice that the righties can't even defend them, although I'll bet they try
 

SCARHOLE

Well-Known Member
Wow the good old days when the govt was going to take away 9 out of every 10 dollars from the wealthy, when we were at war saving the world from Nazis an the Soviets. They definatly paid their share to save democracy an establish it world wide.

Now the buisness are setting up shop in communist china or india, cause its has less red tape cheeper taxes an labor. We have to compete with the world now days, an it not a devistated post WWII world where we are the only super power.

Higher taxes will be passed down as higher prices to the consumer. Witch means less proffits for buisnesses an hireing freezes and lay offs. and can lead to recession an depressions an inflation in the economy. Witch leads to higher taxes........... The cycle has to be stoped.

Jobs are created by the wealthy, ive never been hired by a poor person.
I feel over taxed i can only imagine how my our bosses feel.

Ronald Reagans "voodoo economics" worked, tax cuts ususaly will result in more tax revinue. The same way a shoe sale can make more money then selling em at full price.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Higher taxes will be passed down as higher prices to the consumer. Witch means less proffits for buisnesses an hireing freezes lay offs. and can lead to recession an depressions in the economy. Witch leads to higher taxes........... The cycle has to be stoped.
Higher personal income tax levels on the ultra-wealthy don't get passed on to the consumer. That's a bunch of garbage. Those taxes aren't put on a company, they are on personal income. No one wants to raise the corporate tax rate.

No one loses their jobs because a rich guy has his personal income tax raised. If there is a demand for goods and services jobs will be created. If there is no demand then jobs are cut.

The economy is shitty because middle class people aren't going out and spending money. Not because billionaires can't afford to hire people. They are billionaires. If it was profitable for them to hire people, they would.

You have to think these things through better
 

SCARHOLE

Well-Known Member
I appreciate you keeping this debate civil Dan, you dont just tell people they are stupid if they dissage with you. Pluss rep+

Higher personal income tax levels on the ultra-wealthy don't get passed on to the consumer. That's a bunch of garbage. Those taxes aren't put on a company, they are on personal income. No one wants to raise the corporate tax rate.
I wouldnt pay any tax increases out of my pocket if i was rich?
I would mark prices up.?
Or I would make it cheeper, by moving overseas or layoffs ect an stop making the new plant in your town.
Its what buisness do when it costs more to do buisness. The big money men will be sure to protect them selfs from loss of money.


The majority of the middle an lower class work for a large buisness. Why? Because they dont have capitol to start there own big buisness. We need the rich an the banks to start the ball rolling an hire the middle class so they can spend money an strenghten the economy.

The tax on dividends is a tax on stocks, the death tax also greatly affects corps. I agree the personal income tax increase wont hurt the super wealthys wallet, but the other ones got em scared.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
I think it's the businesses that need the tax breaks. Wealthy people don't hire. Businesses higher. Give the tax breaks directly to the people who are actually doing something with the money rather than the ultra-rich who might put their cash back into the economy.

But... given the current state of the market... The ultra-wealthy investors can put more money into the market with the break, this could create a stock rebound and alleviate the fear.

I dunno. I just think they should spend less on all the bull shit, middle management, gov't owned SUV's driven by employees, and give everyone a tax break. They try and trick us, saying that "schools and parks will suffer" without more cash. You know how much it costs to keep a fucking jogging trail open??? PENNIES!!! And these dorks spend millions on all kinds of unnecessary crap, drumming up public support through domestic terrorism. Don't worry about those billion dollar military tech contracts... No, those we need to keep... But this elementary school? Fuck them... Right?

I think the whole system needs an overhaul and that much more power should be placed in the states. The Fed is just too big to maintain healthily, but if each state could compete for business maybe that would help keep jobs in America rather than China.

Business Tax Breaks. That's my idea. I dunno where the Libertarian Party stands on this, but for whatever reason I always seem to naturally be Libertarian, so I'm probably in line with my Parties philosophy.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
I appreciate you keeping this debate civil Dan, you dont just tell people they are stupid if they dissage with you. Pluss rep+
Only because I say stupid shit all the time :)

I wouldnt pay any tax increases out of my pocket if i was rich?
Sure you would if taxes are raised. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

I would mark prices up.?
Corporations and people are two different things. You can't mark up prices on yourself. The ultra rich are primarily an investor class. Large corporations are rarely owned by a single person.


Or I would make it cheeper, by moving overseas or layoffs ect an stop making the new plant in your town.
If you raise the corporate tax rate that can become true, but personal tax rates are irrelevant. If a product can be made cheaper somewhere else companies will do so regardless of the personal tax rate in that area. It's a non-factor. Personal tax rates do not effect the bottom line for that corporation.

Corporations have no problem moving to SE Asia to make a cheaper product, but a rich guy isn't going to move to Bangladesh because taxes are lower.

Its what buisness do when it costs more to do buisness. The big money men will be sure to protect them selfs from loss of money.
The flaw in your logic is simple. You are treating people and businesses as if they are one in the same. Personal tax rates might effect Bill Gates, but they have no effect on Microsoft what so ever. Understand what I'm saying?

The majority of the middle an lower class work for a large buisness. Why? Because they dont have capitol to start there own big buisness
Correct! This is precisely why we should lower taxes on the middle class, not the ultra-wealthy.

The ultra wealthy has enough capital to start a business if they believe it is profitable. If a middle class person has a great idea to start a profitable business he might not be able to because of lack of capital.

By financially strengthening the middle class instead of the ultra-wealthy the average American has a greater ability to start a small business. That has been the key to American ingenuity and greatness in the past 50 years. We are losing that right now because the middle class is shrinking as wealth is being transfered to the ultra-wealthy.

Apple computer started in Steve Wozniak's mom's garage. Imagine if she was underwater on her mortgage and instead of creating the first Apple computer Woz had to take a job flipping burgers. If that had happened I wouldn't have been able to buy this freakin awesome Iphone 4 yesterday!

It makes you wonder. What are we going to miss out on 20 years from now because the next Steve Wozniak is out flipping burgers instead of fucking around in his garage?

Protecting the middle class is vital to our future. With out the ingenuity of the middle class we'd be just another country (if we aren't already).

We need the rich an the banks to start the ball rolling an hire the middle class so they can spend money an strenghten the economy.
Yes we do. You are just misunderstanding how that is done. The way to create jobs is to increase the demand for goods and services. How do we do that? Give the money to the people who are most likely going to spend it in their communities. When ever you purchase a product, you are reducing supply and creating demand. That is what creates jobs.

Again, you're not distinguishing between people and corporations. Bill Gates doesn't create jobs, microsoft creates jobs. Microsoft creates jobs not based on how much money Bill Gates has but based on how many people purchase microsoft products. When you give tax breaks to the middle class instead of the rich, more people will buy microsoft products because they can afford it.

Bill Gates can afford to create a new company and hire people right now. He could create over a million middle class jobs tomorrow if he wanted to with the money he has. But why would he hire a million people to produce a product no one can afford to buy? It doesn't matter how much you cut his taxes if middle class consumers can't afford his product.

Make sense?

You know what the most efficient way to stimulate the economy? Food stamps. I know that no one likes to hear that but the logic behind that is sound. When the government hands out food stamps 100% of that money is guaranteed to be spent in the local economy and almost all of it stays in the country.

the death tax also greatly affects corps.
No it absolutely does not. The only reason a corporation dies is because it no longer makes money.

I agree the personal income tax increase wont hurt the super wealthys wallet, but the other ones got em scared.
Not so much. Taxing Bill Gates doesn't effect people's decision to buy a PC. The amount of wealth held by the middle class effects that decision.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
I think it's the businesses that need the tax breaks. Wealthy people don't hire. Businesses higher. Give the tax breaks directly to the people who are actually doing something with the money rather than the ultra-rich who might put their cash back into the economy.
Bingo! We have a winner!

If we lowered the corporate tax rate to 10-12% corporations from all over the world would relocate here tomorrow. We'd have so many jobs here we'd be welcoming the illegals from Mexico to come here and take our old jobs.

That is what these tea party people should really be protesting. Hell, I would probably even join them. Unfortunately they've been tricked into thinking the problem is the personal income tax rate of the rich even though it is at a historically low level.

If everyone was making a big deal about lowering the corporate tax rate and middle class tax rates instead of worrying about the already low taxes of the ultra wealthy, we would probably be headed towards a recovery right now. But instead people are worried about fake problems and nothing is getting done.
 

SCARHOLE

Well-Known Member
"The way to create jobs is to increase the demand for goods and services". I dissagree in the great depression there was lots of demand for food an services , just no jobs-money to purchase them cause the rich felt broke an werent hiring witch led to more jobs lost an more buisness not selling goods an more buisness an corps failing , witch lead to more unemployed............


The rich have the juice we need to "prime the pump". We need them to want to invest it here by offering tax breaks so we can get there buisness taxes. They are cash cows for the USA, the amount they recive in tax breaks pails in comparison to the taxes they pay. We need to stop kicking rich cows? lol. We need to collect them like kind seeds for future success.

If we just redistribute wealth as food stamps it wont rase our GDP a cent. It will incrase stagflation or inflation of the dollar making the ecomony even sicker piss off the rich who feel they got robbed at gunpoint by the IRS. Inflation is a huge player in the economy. An since we import so much products its impotant to get the Dollar up an deficet spending down so our currency is still strong in other countries where we do our big shopping.


Next year, the estate tax will rise from a 0% rate to 55%.Corps start out as small, med, an large buissness ran by the owner.
Corps ususaly have a majority share holder who started the buisness, or whos family started the buisness still running it. The Irs knows this an goes after them when they die. Many medium to large buisness with owners will prolly have their assest liquidated by the IRS if they dont have 55% of its total value (including all capitol) paid to the IRS asap.

Also rasing taxes is a bad idea in general i believe, but especialy in a recession, i feel is based mainly on envy am punishment not economics.
 

SCARHOLE

Well-Known Member
the point is that giving them an additional tax cut, like they want, is going to burden everybody else with 70 billion dollars in debt per year for the next decade.

the best way to put it is saying the rich want a bigger slice of the pie, at the expense of everybody else. everybody else will have to pay for letting the rich have more money.

We arent giving the rich tax money lol, we are allowing them to keep 3-5% more of their own money they make. An I believe they would spend it in the ecomony trying to make more money Making the economy pie larger.

"Non-supply siders: Concern themselves with 'How to divide up a [fixed] pie'. Supply siders: Concern themselves with 'How to make a bigger pie.'"
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
i you read you would see that I didn't say it's giving them tax money.

what i said was that giving 1% of the population such a big tax break would cause the rest of the 99% of the population, the rich, the poor, the 1 yr olds, everybody, to incur in 233 dollars in debt per year, and over 2 thousand dollars over the next decade.

just so the rich can have more money.

10 years of tax cuts and de-regulation led us to the brink of another great depression.

the rich have never been richer, the gap between the rich and poor has never been wider. and the economy is still in the shitter.

but you think its a good idea to do the same thing again.

man, the US really has to step up its education.....
 
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