Does War Actually Make Money?

CrackerJax

New Member
You seem to be taking two different positions.

So they didn't use them, or they did, they just didn't have enough?

:shock:

Also, why would they pay them substantially higher to do the same job? (with our taxes, you'd think if gov. was trying to cut the costs, or even be fiscally efficient, they'd just use the military like standard procedure..., No? Just me?)
Whooo boy..maybe it is time for you to quit smoking weed. :lol:

I said where possible and when feasible. One of the major complaints of the war was we were spread out all over the world and too thin and soldiers didn't have all the right equipment...and on and on.

So a private company is hired...supremely capable as well I might add....and picks up the slack...and you complain. There is no pleasing you.

Why do they get paid more? Well, I don't know what the actual pay of an engineer is...but it's up there compared to s foot soldier. Of course (can I assume you know this?) the pay a soldier gets is not the actual cost to the taxpayer. That leads right into the second point which is, the soldier signed up and volunteered for the duty. The other dudes are private citizens and must be hired by a different criteria. No boss can tell an employee to go "over the top", unless he desires to. Soldiering works very differently...they are different animals...different perks. It's a frickin war zone....
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Dude, you completely skirted the question and point I made, just like Cracker.

Why the hell do they pay them so much more than the soldiers with our tax dollars?

They employ these companies because they make profits off having them in the warzones.

You're sitting there saying "fuck the troops, a private company can do it better and I don't mind financing them instead".

Every soldier I've talked to opposes the shit KBR and Halliburton and Blackwater do in the war, they all feel like they're being cheated and outsourced. Why the hell would they have joined the military to risk their lives for meager wages when they could have just signed on with KBR or one of the subsidiaries and made substantially more at half the risk?
You know, if you want people to take you seriously, there are a couple things you can do.

First, stop forming strong opinions based on childish assumptions. Cheney was CEO of the only company capable of building and maintaining a war zone infrastructure. Just because that company was later used to do so does not mean there were any back room deals or that anything shady happened. Like I said, Obama worked for ACORN and then gave them grant money as President. You don't hear people making the childish assumption that Obama got kickbacks. You hear people criticizing ACORN and Obama for funding them, but you don't hear conspiracy theories.

You see, childish people who know nothing about a subject make up these assumptions as substitutes for genuine knowledge. That is why every idiot college kid assumes the Iraq war was all about oil and back room deals. It is nothing but the yammering of a bunch of uninformed arm chair political analysts - of which you are one.

Next, stop pretending to be an expert on issues you know nothing about. You don't know the first thing about why the military uses private contractors. Why are you pretending like you do?

See, you approach everything by way of cognitive heuristics rather than from a position of knowledge. In other words, you think that you have an ability to simply figure everything out without actual knowledge of the subject matter. It is a fallacy you seem to use all the time.

The bottom line is that you lack a single shred of evidence that demonstrates any wrong doing on the part of Cheney or anyone else with regard to wartime profiteering. All you have is your own uninformed assumptions. And you don't know Jack shit about the financial reality of civilian contractors used in Iraq.

You really need to stop pretending to be something you are not. Do this and people might take you seriously some day.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
You know, if you want people to take you seriously, there are a couple things you can do.
Quite frankly, I don't really care who decides to take what I say seriously or not. I'm not out to cater to those people that are too stubborn to look outside something traditional. The way I see it, it's their loss if they decide to walk through life with film over reality.

First, stop forming strong opinions based on childish assumptions. Cheney was CEO of the only company capable of building and maintaining a war zone infrastructure. Just because that company was later used to do so does not mean there were any back room deals or that anything shady happened.
First, I don't really think these are "childish assumptions", it's investigation at it's most basic level. Any journalist would do the exact same things, that's how you discover things, look into the backgrounds and connect the dots.

Second, Army engineers could have, should have, and wanted to do the job, but instead the Bush administration outsourced the jobs to private contractors, of which the VP had an active stake in. Cracker mentioned the Army didn't have enough engineers at the time, my question would then be, why didn't they have enough engineers? What did they do back in WW2, why couldn't they do the same thing with Iraq? It was not the only company capable of doing it.

Here's a few bits from the book War is a Racket that I think apply;

"For a very few this racket, like bootlegging and other underworld rackets, brings fancy profits, but the cost of operations is always transferred to the people - who do not profit."

"The normal profits of a business concern in the United States are six, eight, ten, and sometimes even twelve per cent. But wartime profits - ah! that is another matter - twenty, sixty, one hundred, three hundred, and even eighteen hundred per cent - the sky is the limit. All that the traffic will bear. Uncle Sam has the money, Let's get it."

"Napoleon once said,
"All men are enamored of decorations... they positively hunger for them." "- the government learned it could get soldiers for less money, because the boys like to be decorated."

(on how to defeat the racket)
"It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war."


Like I said, Obama worked for ACORN and then gave them grant money as President. You don't hear people making the childish assumption that Obama got kickbacks. You hear people criticizing ACORN and Obama for funding them, but you don't hear conspiracy theories.
Call it whatever you want. "Conspiracy Theory" - you throw the words around as if you don't understand what they mean. Or to even think a conspiracy could ever take place one must be crazy! All it is is an act of betrayal by the American politicians. I sit here sometimes amazed people like you, who have been around for twice as long as me, and actually lived through the racket of Vietnam and now Iraq can't see the business for what it actually is. It's never been about defending our democracy or our freedoms, wars are waged because they make profits. The links are there, right out in the open, and every time someone brings one up, he's a "Conspiracy theorist" because Fox News says they are. Anyone who questions the US government is a terrorist...

It seems like you just don't want to believe reality for what it actually is. People die every day because of the way our government runs, and it doesn't have to be like this, which is the saddest part of all. It could be completely different, except people like you are unwilling to change, even the slightest bit, to make another persons life worth living. You justify it by turning them into people who should just live the way we do and do what we do because you believe our way is right and nothing could be better. But when 1/2 the world survives on under $2.00 a day, while Americans are racking up credit card debt on things they don't need or will never use, the system cannot be deemed a success. More successful than others, but definitely not a success. And it's people like you holding us back from progress to a new system that isbetter.


The rest of your post is just bullshit personal attacks. And listen to yourself bitch constantly about how it's always people on the left who do it. Get bent man, you're such a hypocrite.

Feel free to report this post, because I know that's your thing these days... :roll:
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Quite frankly, I don't really care who decides to take what I say seriously or not. I'm not out to cater to those people that are too stubborn to look outside something traditional. The way I see it, it's their loss if they decide to walk through life with film over reality.
...................................................
.....................................................
Feel free to report this post, because I know that's your thing these days... :roll:

I liked your post much better than Ricks, +rep
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Quite frankly, I don't really care who decides to take what I say seriously or not. I'm not out to cater to those people that are too stubborn to look outside something traditional. The way I see it, it's their loss if they decide to walk through life with film over reality.



First, I don't really think these are "childish assumptions", it's investigation at it's most basic level. Any journalist would do the exact same things, that's how you discover things, look into the backgrounds and connect the dots.

Second, Army engineers could have, should have, and wanted to do the job, but instead the Bush administration outsourced the jobs to private contractors, of which the VP had an active stake in. Cracker mentioned the Army didn't have enough engineers at the time, my question would then be, why didn't they have enough engineers? What did they do back in WW2, why couldn't they do the same thing with Iraq? It was not the only company capable of doing it.

Here's a few bits from the book War is a Racket that I think apply;

"For a very few this racket, like bootlegging and other underworld rackets, brings fancy profits, but the cost of operations is always transferred to the people - who do not profit."

"The normal profits of a business concern in the United States are six, eight, ten, and sometimes even twelve per cent. But wartime profits - ah! that is another matter - twenty, sixty, one hundred, three hundred, and even eighteen hundred per cent - the sky is the limit. All that the traffic will bear. Uncle Sam has the money, Let's get it."

"Napoleon once said,
"All men are enamored of decorations... they positively hunger for them." "- the government learned it could get soldiers for less money, because the boys like to be decorated."

(on how to defeat the racket)
"It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war."



Call it whatever you want. "Conspiracy Theory" - you throw the words around as if you don't understand what they mean. Or to even think a conspiracy could ever take place one must be crazy! All it is is an act of betrayal by the American politicians. I sit here sometimes amazed people like you, who have been around for twice as long as me, and actually lived through the racket of Vietnam and now Iraq can't see the business for what it actually is. It's never been about defending our democracy or our freedoms, wars are waged because they make profits. The links are there, right out in the open, and every time someone brings one up, he's a "Conspiracy theorist" because Fox News says they are. Anyone who questions the US government is a terrorist...

It seems like you just don't want to believe reality for what it actually is. People die every day because of the way our government runs, and it doesn't have to be like this, which is the saddest part of all. It could be completely different, except people like you are unwilling to change, even the slightest bit, to make another persons life worth living. You justify it by turning them into people who should just live the way we do and do what we do because you believe our way is right and nothing could be better. But when 1/2 the world survives on under $2.00 a day, while Americans are racking up credit card debt on things they don't need or will never use, the system cannot be deemed a success. More successful than others, but definitely not a success. And it's people like you holding us back from progress to a new system that isbetter.


The rest of your post is just bullshit personal attacks. And listen to yourself bitch constantly about how it's always people on the left who do it. Get bent man, you're such a hypocrite.

Feel free to report this post, because I know that's your thing these days... :roll:
Yep, you have got me pegged. I just have never had the intellectual curiosity to question the motives of the powers that be. I am just so naive, that I believe everything they say without question. After all, that is how most people are. Few can be so enlightened as to see what you see; that everything is a scam and a scandal. I, with my simple views of the world just can not put two and two together and see that everything is a conspiracy to make some evil politicians rich.

Or just maybe, all of your conspiracy theory garbage is old hat to me. Just maybe, I have heard all the crap you are spewing 10,000 times, and I have learned through the years that it is all childish nonsense.

Imagine that Padawan! Imagine, there could be other people on Earth who actually have more experience with your own arguments than you do! Imagine, not being the first person on the fucking planet to come up with those same ideas! Oh, my God! Just the thought of it must be too much for you to wrap your tiny brain around.

Padawan, I know your conspiracy theory, everyone is getting rich garbage makes sense to you and to all the other uninformed children here. But, I promise you no serious, knowledgeable grown up person holds those opinions. Leaders of the US do not initiate wars for profit - only fools believe that. It is a childish fantasy. It is no less ignorant that believing in big foot or the 911 conspiracy.

Why don't you at least try to imitate a scholarly effort. Why don't you look at the facts behind Desert Storm. I'm not asking you to agree with it, but at least learn the facts. Learn that the ENTIRE WORLD thought Saddam had WMDs. Learn that Saddam was a major sponsor of terror. Learn that he violated numerous UN resolutions. learn that he violated the standing cease fire (from Desert Shield) dozens of times - each time being an act of war.

Again, you don't have to agree with the decision to go into Iraq, but at least learn something about it so you can speak intelligently on the subject instead of just using the same old tired theories that every ignorant moron trots out - that it is about money or oil. What will it take to make you understand that this is not enlightenment, it is merely the mantra of the ignorant.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
It seems like you just don't want to believe reality for what it actually is. People die every day because of the way our government runs, and it doesn't have to be like this, which is the saddest part of all. It could be completely different, except people like you are unwilling to change, even the slightest bit, to make another persons life worth living. You justify it by turning them into people who should just live the way we do and do what we do because you believe our way is right and nothing could be better. But when 1/2 the world survives on under $2.00 a day, while Americans are racking up credit card debt on things they don't need or will never use, the system cannot be deemed a success. More successful than others, but definitely not a success. And it's people like you holding us back from progress to a new system that isbetter.
Wow man! Just fucking wow! You mean we could all live in a utopia of peace and love and like we could all be brothers man - and like nobody would have to work or ever need anything and like life would be all great and shit man.

Wow man, I guess I've had it all wrong all these years man. I see what you mean man - I'm going to give away all my stuff and buy a VW van and just kind of drive across the country getting high and living off the generosity of others. All I have to do man is like just get people to see the light man and it will be like fucking great.

Oh man, how could I have been so blind for so long. Wow man, it's too bad nobody ever had these ideas before. Man, you must be some kind of visionary - too bad you weren't around like back when the Bible was written because life would be so much better man.

Putz...
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Funny.. quite a bit of people would disagree with you.

That book that I quoted in my previous post was written by Brigadier General Smedley D. Butler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_D._Butler

But I guess you would know better than a man who fought in nine wars/battles and received the Medal of Honor, twice. :neutral:

Go back even further, almost since the beginning of civilization we've waged wars. But today we can educate people above such petty acts. You say it's natural? I say so what? We're above it, beyond it. There are very few reasons to wage war, and the ones that exist will never disappear. But is money really something to kill millions of people over? Is religion worth it? The vast majority of wars are waged based off these two reasons, and most of the time they're interconnected. Is that worth it to you?

Jared Diamond describes exactly how the system we live in works, why people believe that going to war is good in Guns, Germs and Steel, which won the Pulitzer Prize;

"The chief (president) may either combine the offices of political leader and priest in a single person, or may support a separate group of keptocrats (that is, priests) whose function is to provide ideological justification for the chiefs. That is why chiefdoms devote so much collected tribute to construction temples and other public works, which serve as centers of the official religion and visible signs of the chief's power.
Besides justifying the transfer of wealth to keptocrats, institutionalized religion brings two other important benefits to centralized societies. First, shared ideology or religion helps solve the problem of how unrelated individuals are to live together without killing each other - by providing them with a bond not based on kinship. Second, it gives people a motive, other than genetic self-interest, for sacrificing their lives on behalf of others. At the cost of a few society members who die in battle as soldiers, the whole society becomes much more effective at conquering other societies or resisting attacks."

Religion, the retarded bullshit that 95% of the world believes in (mainly because their parents believed it, but also because they're under the threat of death in places like the Middle East or outcast in the developed world), gives people their own little comfortable justification for killing another human being. Our governments have used that aspect of religion against us since civilization began. They're the "evil doers" or the "terrorists". And people like you soak it up.


You're stuck in a state of mind that makes you think this stuff is OK, the environment around you and the things you see all influence and perpetuate the same lie. They do it because they need you on the ground to use as nothing more than pawns in the game, and you would never do it if you didn't think it was the right thing to do, so that's what they do, make you think it is the right thing.

When you take an honest look at the actions that take place in warfare, something I don't think you've ever done, you would never advocate it.

If you want to have an honest war that is justified, here's a simple way to do it;

-take the profits out of war
-let the people who would be doing the fighting vote on whether or not there should be a war
-limit our military forces to home defense purposes

Do that and watch what happens.


There's one more thing I wanted to point out. You're the highest degree of douche. You can't seem to have any kind of civil discourse with anyone on this website. Cracker is the only one who kisses your ass because you and him are the only two assholes who wholeheartedly disagree with every single thing I have to say no matter what the fuck it is, because it's me, which says an awful lot about you two, and I get rep every time I smack your bullshit back down in it's place. So keep it up, I enjoy it. I'm sure you do too or else you wouldn't keep coming back.

I don't claim to be an expert on anything, I never have. I claim to do honest research and investigation and come to honest conclusions based on what I think is the most moral course of action to take, and not just for Americans. For you it's profits, keeping America #1 even if it means keeping the rest of the world at #300, and apparently sticking your nose in every single place it isn't wanted or needed, especially regarding people personal lives, and even you don't give a fuck if they are American on that one.
 

medicineman

New Member
Rick says:
"Or just maybe, all of your conspiracy theory garbage is old hat to me. Just maybe, I have heard all the crap you are spewing 10,000 times, and I have learned through the years that it is all childish nonsense.
Imagine that Padawan! Imagine, there could be other people on Earth who actually have more experience with your own arguments than you do! Imagine, not being the first person on the fucking planet to come up with those same ideas! Oh, my God! Just the thought of it must be too much for you to wrap your tiny brain around."
Insults insults insults, and you are the king of snitching on people for insults. Guess what dickwad, I'm 70 years old, been around the bush a few times and definently believe Cheny and Haliburton were deep, deep, deep in colussion. I also believe modern, and more than likely most previous wars have been fought for profit. Some one, some group, some investors have made and are making bank on war. That is a blatant fact for all that have eyes to see. Wake up Rick, life is to short to go around in the dark.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Hold on let me get this right...someone is on a weed site running and telling on other people...damn that is scary
 

medicineman

New Member
Hold on let me get this right...someone is on a weed site running and telling on other people...damn that is scary
Yup, that sissy Rick White snitches all the time. I've been here around three years, never once snitched on anyone. Don't ever intend to. I just go by the old axiom, heat in the kitchen, get out thingy. If I have a problem with someone, I just tell them about it. I'm not a suit and tie kind of guy, more like a truck driver, (I drove truck for a few years) so my insults sometimes include the peoples language, if you know what I mean.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Wow just shows a persons true nature...Some people built that way....Hey Rick I don't smoke nor grow weed. I'm here to learn how to grow strawberry's. LOL :weed:
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Funny.. quite a bit of people would disagree with you.

That book that I quoted in my previous post was written by Brigadier General Smedley D. Butler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_D._Butler

But I guess you would know better than a man who fought in nine wars/battles and received the Medal of Honor, twice. :neutral:

Go back even further, almost since the beginning of civilization we've waged wars. But today we can educate people above such petty acts. You say it's natural? I say so what? We're above it, beyond it. There are very few reasons to wage war, and the ones that exist will never disappear. But is money really something to kill millions of people over? Is religion worth it? The vast majority of wars are waged based off these two reasons, and most of the time they're interconnected. Is that worth it to you?

Jared Diamond describes exactly how the system we live in works, why people believe that going to war is good in Guns, Germs and Steel, which won the Pulitzer Prize;

"The chief (president) may either combine the offices of political leader and priest in a single person, or may support a separate group of keptocrats (that is, priests) whose function is to provide ideological justification for the chiefs. That is why chiefdoms devote so much collected tribute to construction temples and other public works, which serve as centers of the official religion and visible signs of the chief's power.
Besides justifying the transfer of wealth to keptocrats, institutionalized religion brings two other important benefits to centralized societies. First, shared ideology or religion helps solve the problem of how unrelated individuals are to live together without killing each other - by providing them with a bond not based on kinship. Second, it gives people a motive, other than genetic self-interest, for sacrificing their lives on behalf of others. At the cost of a few society members who die in battle as soldiers, the whole society becomes much more effective at conquering other societies or resisting attacks."

Religion, the retarded bullshit that 95% of the world believes in (mainly because their parents believed it, but also because they're under the threat of death in places like the Middle East or outcast in the developed world), gives people their own little comfortable justification for killing another human being. Our governments have used that aspect of religion against us since civilization began. They're the "evil doers" or the "terrorists". And people like you soak it up.


You're stuck in a state of mind that makes you think this stuff is OK, the environment around you and the things you see all influence and perpetuate the same lie. They do it because they need you on the ground to use as nothing more than pawns in the game, and you would never do it if you didn't think it was the right thing to do, so that's what they do, make you think it is the right thing.

When you take an honest look at the actions that take place in warfare, something I don't think you've ever done, you would never advocate it.

If you want to have an honest war that is justified, here's a simple way to do it;

-take the profits out of war
-let the people who would be doing the fighting vote on whether or not there should be a war
-limit our military forces to home defense purposes

Do that and watch what happens.


There's one more thing I wanted to point out. You're the highest degree of douche. You can't seem to have any kind of civil discourse with anyone on this website. Cracker is the only one who kisses your ass because you and him are the only two assholes who wholeheartedly disagree with every single thing I have to say no matter what the fuck it is, because it's me, which says an awful lot about you two, and I get rep every time I smack your bullshit back down in it's place. So keep it up, I enjoy it. I'm sure you do too or else you wouldn't keep coming back.

I don't claim to be an expert on anything, I never have. I claim to do honest research and investigation and come to honest conclusions based on what I think is the most moral course of action to take, and not just for Americans. For you it's profits, keeping America #1 even if it means keeping the rest of the world at #300, and apparently sticking your nose in every single place it isn't wanted or needed, especially regarding people personal lives, and even you don't give a fuck if they are American on that one.
Why is it not abundantly clear to you that there is NOTHING you will ever think that is unfamiliar to me. I have demonstrated beyond question that I am 100 times more educated and experienced than than you are.

EVERY FUCKING TIME you say I am stuck on this idea or that idea you are failing to see that I am not "stuck" on anything and nothing you are saying is unknown to me. Every thought you have is one I was learning about and contemplating while you were still shitting your diapers. I am not stuck on them or unaware of them - I HAVE ABANDON THEM as has every other rational adult.

GRASP THIS CONCEPT. I have been where you are intellectually and I have matured and moved on to a higher understanding. Are you really that stupid that you think you have ideas I am not getting? Your ideas are juvenile Padawan, they are not enlightened or visionary. Many, many people had the same ideas you have in their younger years and have moved on to a higher understanding. If we were in a room of knowledgeable, rational adults and you were spouting off there would be numerous people laughing at you because we all once thought those same thoughts. Your ideas have been around for fucking decades - get that through your head already. They are not original and they are not foreign concepts to people like myself. In fact, I'm sure I know more about your opinions than you do. I have learned about all the same pseudo-intellectual garbage as you and much more DECADES AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you can not get this through your head already, that more than anything shows your ignorance.

Maybe if you didn't have such an ignorant, uninformed and childish view of religion and were capable of seeing some of the philosophical value found in religion you would learn the concept of humility and exercise it a little bit. You sure could use it.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Rick...can you source that 100 times comment? :lol:

I've come to the conclusion that the internet is the very worst thing for some of the ppl on this forum. They haven't any experience and believe anything which is wrapped up for them. They consume info but have no ability to apply it correctly.

The internet uses and confuses them.... but it is entertaining!! :lol:
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Maybe if you didn't have such an ignorant, uninformed and childish view of religion and were capable of seeing some of the philosophical value found in religion you would learn the concept of humility and exercise it a little bit. You sure could use it.
You must be talking about great periods in history like the Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, The Dark Ages etc etc etc all wonderful church oriented times in this worlds past, truly a Philosophical Smorgasbord of religious zealotry! Religion has caused more suffering than all wars combined.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
How many times have I said myself that the philosophies I adhere to were thought up by much greater men than myself? I've cited Locke, Jefferson, Gandhi, etc. I've even credited Martin Luther, a devoutly religious man, in posts on this forum. I don't know where you get the idea, and why you're so stuck on believing, that I think I thought all this shit up all by myself, because I know I didn't, I've never said I did. Yet you continue to lie about it.

Your attitude of "it's just the way it is" is misguided, and it belongs on the lowest step of the intellectual ladder. People that adhere to that are always greedy fucks only interested in benefiting themselves. They're content with the world because they live lavish lifestyles while putting everyone else's misery in the back of their minds because hey, it's not their fault they were born into luxury.

Nobody that's ever made a difference has said "well, that's just the way it is". Changes are made by people with dreams, not by people content on making a buck off the rape of the third world.

I hope you live a happy life man, honestly, with all your material possessions right by your side. But when you're gone, you can't take them with you. Material bullshit is the least important thing in this world.
 

rocksteady6

Well-Known Member
I cant believe this thread is pounding on like it is. Good on ya for such a large discussion. No snitches on this thread. I am sending a bitch slap through the web to any snitches.
 
Top