Ttystikk's vertical goodness

RM3

Well-Known Member
I'm reading thru your whole thread. On page 12 a statement was made about nutrients. Its one that's been driving me nuts for a long time. You see, I'm a crusader against garden myths. And the statement, every time i see it said, sets off my bullshit alarms! Its this:

"Actually.. Veg nutes (higher in N) will grow more compact, bushy plants.. It is bloom nutes (High in P) that will make your plants stretch more."

Unless someone is putting hormones and PGRs in the nutes, what does the mineral content have to do with it??? I see no logical reason for the nutrients in your solution or soil to have any direct effect stretch unless levels are toxic or inadequate. Bloom and stretch are controlled by genetics. I've looked a bit but found no solid information to support this claim of nutrients regulating plant growth in a healthy environment. Maybe you can enlighten us on this subject?
From the ProMix website

http://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/relationship-between-fertilizer-plant-stretching/

Nitrogen Forms: It has been long thought that the form of nitrogen used to fertilize a plant influenced plant stretching and quality. Ammoniacal nitrogen has been thought to cause plant stretching, increase leaf size and produce soft growth; while nitrate nitrogen produces compact, firm growth with smaller leaves. Experientially this seems to be true. For example 20-10-20, which has 40% ammonium and 60% nitrate, can promote stretching, larger leaf size and softer overall growth compared to 13-2-13 which is 6% ammonium and 94% nitrate. However there is another variable; if both fertilizers are applied at the same nitrogen application rate; 20-10-20 provides more than three times as much phosphorus as 13-2-13.

Traditionally fertilizers that have a high ratio of ammoniacal nitrogen also have higher levels of phosphorus due to their formulation with ammonium phosphate. Fertilizers with higher ratios of nitrate usually have little to no phosphorus content since the calcium nitrate they are formulated with can form precipitates with phosphate. So is the nitrogen source the factor in plant stretching?

Dr. Paul V. Nelson, Professor Emeritus of NCSU and his team, conducted research with various bedding plants in which he applied fertilizer with different ratios of ammoniacal to nitrate nitrogen, while keeping all other nutrients the same. The results demonstrated that there was little difference in plant growth. Based on these results, the old idea that ammonium causes plant stretch and nitrate produces short, more tone plants was not true. Dr. Nelson concluded that the form of nitrogen has little influence on plant height and growth.

Phosphorus: Dr. Nelson then looked at phosphorus. In his research, he formulated fertilizers with different levels of phosphorus, but kept the nitrogen ratios and all other nutrients the same. The results showed a significant difference in the height of bedding plants in which those fertilized with a high phosphorus fertilizer were taller than those given a low phosphorus fertilizer. The conclusion was obvious; it is not the form of nitrogen in a fertilizer that influences stretching and plant growth, but it is the amount of phosphorus.

This conclusion makes sense as symptoms of phosphorus deficiency include plant stunting and darkening of the leaves as seen in the following picture. These symptoms are good quality attributes for most plants; however, prolonged phosphorus deficiency can progress into foliar necrosis and deterioration of crop quality. A water soluble fertilizer should provide a minimum phosphorus level (P2O5) of 10-15% of the nitrogen concentration (i.e. fertilizers with analyses such as 20-2-20 or 20-3-20). Some plug crops may prefer higher levels of phosphorus and may benefit from an analysis such as 20-5-20. Fertilizers such as 20-10-20 or 20-20-20 provide more phosphorus than crops need, but other than plants being taller; these fertilizers do not have a negative impact on crops.



“Notice the impact of phosphorus on tomato growth. The plant on the left is grown
with normal levels of phosphorus, while the one on the right is shorter and smaller
due to phosphorus deficiency.
Source: apps.cdfa.ca.gov/frep/docs/Tomato.html, Jim Richards, UC Davis.”



Conclusion: Overall, we can see manipulation of fertilizer can influence plant height and crop growth. The old adage that ammonium stretches plants and nitrate leads to compact growth is not as significant as once thought; in fact, these nutrients do not seem to manipulate crop growth much at all. Reducing fertilizer application rates can help, but often compromise crop quality and end user satisfaction. The one variable that can reduce plant stretching without compromising crop quality is reduction of phosphorus application rates.
 

pop22

Well-Known Member
Interesting, thank you!

From the ProMix website

http://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/relationship-between-fertilizer-plant-stretching/

Nitrogen Forms: It has been long thought that the form of nitrogen used to fertilize a plant influenced plant stretching and quality. Ammoniacal nitrogen has been thought to cause plant stretching, increase leaf size and produce soft growth; while nitrate nitrogen produces compact, firm growth with smaller leaves. Experientially this seems to be true. For example 20-10-20, which has 40% ammonium and 60% nitrate, can promote stretching, larger leaf size and softer overall growth compared to 13-2-13 which is 6% ammonium and 94% nitrate. However there is another variable; if both fertilizers are applied at the same nitrogen application rate; 20-10-20 provides more than three times as much phosphorus as 13-2-13.

Traditionally fertilizers that have a high ratio of ammoniacal nitrogen also have higher levels of phosphorus due to their formulation with ammonium phosphate. Fertilizers with higher ratios of nitrate usually have little to no phosphorus content since the calcium nitrate they are formulated with can form precipitates with phosphate. So is the nitrogen source the factor in plant stretching?

Dr. Paul V. Nelson, Professor Emeritus of NCSU and his team, conducted research with various bedding plants in which he applied fertilizer with different ratios of ammoniacal to nitrate nitrogen, while keeping all other nutrients the same. The results demonstrated that there was little difference in plant growth. Based on these results, the old idea that ammonium causes plant stretch and nitrate produces short, more tone plants was not true. Dr. Nelson concluded that the form of nitrogen has little influence on plant height and growth.

Phosphorus: Dr. Nelson then looked at phosphorus. In his research, he formulated fertilizers with different levels of phosphorus, but kept the nitrogen ratios and all other nutrients the same. The results showed a significant difference in the height of bedding plants in which those fertilized with a high phosphorus fertilizer were taller than those given a low phosphorus fertilizer. The conclusion was obvious; it is not the form of nitrogen in a fertilizer that influences stretching and plant growth, but it is the amount of phosphorus.

This conclusion makes sense as symptoms of phosphorus deficiency include plant stunting and darkening of the leaves as seen in the following picture. These symptoms are good quality attributes for most plants; however, prolonged phosphorus deficiency can progress into foliar necrosis and deterioration of crop quality. A water soluble fertilizer should provide a minimum phosphorus level (P2O5) of 10-15% of the nitrogen concentration (i.e. fertilizers with analyses such as 20-2-20 or 20-3-20). Some plug crops may prefer higher levels of phosphorus and may benefit from an analysis such as 20-5-20. Fertilizers such as 20-10-20 or 20-20-20 provide more phosphorus than crops need, but other than plants being taller; these fertilizers do not have a negative impact on crops.



“Notice the impact of phosphorus on tomato growth. The plant on the left is grown
with normal levels of phosphorus, while the one on the right is shorter and smaller
due to phosphorus deficiency.
Source: apps.cdfa.ca.gov/frep/docs/Tomato.html, Jim Richards, UC Davis.”



Conclusion: Overall, we can see manipulation of fertilizer can influence plant height and crop growth. The old adage that ammonium stretches plants and nitrate leads to compact growth is not as significant as once thought; in fact, these nutrients do not seem to manipulate crop growth much at all. Reducing fertilizer application rates can help, but often compromise crop quality and end user satisfaction. The one variable that can reduce plant stretching without compromising crop quality is reduction of phosphorus application rates.
 

FilthyFletch

Mr I Can Do That For Half
Democratic Caucuses last night for Bernie had a strong showing. He can win it. Kiwis should rejoice, if he does. Americans, moreso. All good, I agree with everybody here. Be brave, Bern baby Bern.
No sane person would vote for Bernie or any socialist. Socialism has been the proven collapser of all economies it has been attempted to run. It is the anti American foundation of freedom and democracy. We all should fight socialism to the end.
 

pop22

Well-Known Member
Make Donald Drumpf again!

http://www.donaldjdrumpf.com/

Yes,it must be we need a former Walmart lawyer who helped craft their wonderful employee policies, sold us out to the Oil industry, etc etc for president!
Or even better, Donald Drumpf, because we ALL know what he'll do to..errr...for our country. You just go on believing that. Maybe you'd be happier in Syria.......

No sane person would vote for Bernie or any socialist. Socialism has been the proven collapser of all economies it has been attempted to run. It is the anti American foundation of freedom and democracy. We all should fight socialism to the end.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
No sane person would vote for Bernie or any socialist. Socialism has been the proven collapser of all economies it has been attempted to run. It is the anti American foundation of freedom and democracy. We all should fight socialism to the end.
Dude, Bernie would have qualified as a good republican for much of this country's history. We aren't nationalizing industry, just making sure everyone pays their fair share. You aren't against that, are you?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Make Donald Drumpf again!

http://www.donaldjdrumpf.com/

Yes,it must be we need a former Walmart lawyer who helped craft their wonderful employee policies, sold us out to the Oil industry, etc etc for president!
Or even better, Donald Drumpf, because we ALL know what he'll do to..errr...for our country. You just go on believing that. Maybe you'd be happier in Syria.......
Did you hear his campaign manager quit this morning, and wrote a scathing letter about Chump the man and can't-idate.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
No sane person would vote for Bernie or any socialist. Socialism has been the proven collapser of all economies it has been attempted to run. It is the anti American foundation of freedom and democracy. We all should fight socialism to the end.
That's funny, we're doing just fine up here in Canada and our Liberal party is about as socialist as your Democrats. We don't consider it socialism, we call it taking care of our own and sharing the wealth. The wild west, dog-eat-dog, fuck the other guy attitudes changed here when we hit the 20th century.
 

gr865

Well-Known Member
Interesting, Oh interesting so true!
MONEY, hummmm, makes the world go round.
And we are the 1%'s pawns to do with as they like. Yet there biggest group of pawns are "OUR" elected officials, I am tired of being a pawn!
There are over 2/3's of the seats in the House and Senate to be voted on this next election, so before you go vote, do your homework, find out which candidates are wanting to seriously make a difference in Washington for the betterment of the American people or which ones are just looking to line their pockets and will keep it business as usual in DC.
I don't care who you vote for be it Democrat, Republican, Independent or other, just don't be lazy and say Oh well, I recognize or have heard his/her name on the ballot and do know know who these others are, so I will just vote to keep him/her in office. WRONG! That is not the way folks. Ask question, ask them what they plan to do when they get to Washington, ask for specific's, Don't settle on just them giving general answers, ask what are you going to do about the budget, immigration, gun's, the Constitution, etc etc. That is what is lacking in this election by everyone running for president, there are no details about what their plans are. Build a fence, fuck how do you plan on doing that, go after the 2nd amendment, are you going after our guns, Social Security, how are you going to fix it, ask if they will try and get the trillions of dollars that was taken by the government to fund other bullshit, repair the broken war on drugs, change cannabis from a schedule 1 to a 4 is a good start.
Let's show the Washington establishment that we are tired of their bullshit and really make a change for the good in our country.
USA Proud!

Ok that is all the political shit I want, let's talk vertical!

GR





 
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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I had an emergency over the easter weekend; one of my chillers died! Limping along on one unit is a chore but it keeps the system going until my guy can come and fix it. "Fault Tolerance" in my systems design means the emergency is isolated and doesn't bring my whole op to its knees.

And indeed my spare capacitor saved the day! He made it over this afternoon and the spare is running the unit until another part can arrive.

SPARE PARTS. THEY WILL SAVE YOUR ASS. Close behind this piece of wisdom comes the suggestion of standardizing your parts so you can carry fewer spares... leading to modular components.

That's why my two chillers are the same make, model and type.

They are due for replacement, however, and the new unit is officially slated to arrive at the lab next week! YAY! Rated at Five Tons of chilling and 7.5 Tons of heating, the owner asserts they don't ship unless they run ten percent over their rated capacity at ninety degrees ambient conditions.

I will be chilling and heating in style for many years to come.
 

Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
No sane person would vote for Bernie or any socialist. Socialism has been the proven collapser of all economies it has been attempted to run. It is the anti American foundation of freedom and democracy. We all should fight socialism to the end.
No educated person would say this. I mean educated currently, not 50 years ago. You're living in the past, bud.
All forms of government fail. In the same way that the human risk of death is 100%; Every government will fail, every person will die. The most successful states currently on the planet are socialist democracies. Different than National or Marxist Socialism, it is called Social Democracy. Countries like Norway, Sweden, Netherlands and Iceland seem to be doing pretty well with it.

Learn the things!
 
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Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
This is a matter of definitions. Our country needs a lot more collective assistance of the poor and needy and a lot less assistance of the already shockingly well off at the expense of the rest of us.
I agree, large corporations get the lion's share of socialism in our country, and many others. Individual natural persons have many fewer rights, especially financially. Completely upside-down.
 

pop22

Well-Known Member
I just bought CXA 2530's for $7.09 each. They'd make a great veg light with the right driver and heat sink. might be able to build for $100 maybe less! no lenses needed for veg. and this would still stomp any T5 rig.

400.00 is a little high to crush the T-5 market. I mean T-5's are probably the most bought veg light world wide. And their fucking bulbs always go out its a fucking mess.
 
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