Which is better hid or led?

leds suck...hid kicks ass...period

squarefodder said:

read what you wrote. you wrote that hid was more expensive lmfao and you've never grown with leds, I have. go home

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I checked, just to be sure. Yep, I erred on the last line in my post. I have corrected that. Still the rest of the post did say LED was more expensive, "you'll spend less and get better results with HID" is pretty clear, is it not? Nowhere did I say I that I have or have not grown with LED. Quit being such a self-righteous asshole.

hyroot said:

^^^ that statement red made is full of redundancies and contradictions and does not have a grasp of how business works. Spending higher costs does not make lights cheaper in the future. Its supply and demand. the more led's that are sold the cheaper it gets. If hardly anyone bought hid. Hid would cost more. Even 3 years ago it cost $600 to $700 to buy one 1000 watt. Now Its $300 to.$400 depending on where. The price drop was not due to people paying for tech. That tech was done with in the 80's.It was the flood of growers from all the medical rec holders amd dispensaries. Hence supply and demand. That applies to every business model. Look how much macs have dropped in price. You can buy a g5 for $2000 but a few years ago it was 10 times that amount..... Those arguments don't even have a leg to stand on.

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Show me a TRUE 1000w LED for $300. I see 800w LEDs (400-500 true wattage) $2000 or more. You don't have a clue how technology develops. Demand drives technology advances. Spending higher now finances research in improving the lights. If no one bought your Mac example, they would still be selling the Apple II. G5's would never have been developed. As it is, the demand is low for G5's, businesses just don't use them except certain isolated industries, so Apple has spent more research funds on telephones than improving their computers. Look how much telephones advanced in the past 5 years. Computers, not so much.

Red1966 said:

I checked, just to be sure. Yep, I erred on the last line in my post. I have corrected that. Still the rest of the post did say LED was more expensive, "you'll spend less and get better results with HID" is pretty clear, is it not? Nowhere did I say I that I have or have not grown with LED. Quit being such a self-righteous asshole.

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Self righteous? Please It's obvious you've not grow with led. But yet you want to tell everyone that hid is hands down better? C Mon bro. Yes its expensive, that doesn't make it better or worse brotha. Again its another way to grow.

So in your mind led is Crap because it costs more money?
Show me where a quality 1000w hid crushes a quality 1000w of led.

This whole thread is ridiculous. Obviously there are folks out there who are sticking to hid only and folks who are sticking to led only.

I use both!! And suggest new growers do the same.

Red1966 said:

Show me a TRUE 1000w LED for $300. I see 800w LEDs (400-500 true wattage) $2000 or more. You don't have a clue how technology develops. Demand drives technology advances. Spending higher now finances research in improving the lights. If no one bought your Mac example, they would still be selling the Apple II. G5's would never have been developed. As it is, the demand is low for G5's, businesses just don't use them except certain isolated industries, so Apple has spent more research funds on telephones than improving their computers. Look how much telephones advanced in the past 5 years. Computers, not so much.

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Dude phone are computers nowadays.

Ipads tablets are all computers. Last I checked 5 plus years ago computers were bulky laptops and desktops. Not dual core phones and tablets.

Phones are computers first bro

superstoner1 said:

so as a dedicated hps grower and not recent on led knowledge i went and read a bunch of articles and posts and manufacturer data. i am almost considering adding a large led to the middle of my room and have a 1000 hps on each side. anyone have experience with the blackstar 900? i run my lights without aircooling and wanted to add a third 1000hps but the new veg room is using the extra cooling capacity i had and the hps would take me over my comfortable limit, so i thought that would be perfect for one of the new high power led's.

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do not buy a blackstar, it will fail within a year and you will be back to hating LEDs ...

Red1966 said:

"Humanoids"? WTF? I said LEDs cost more. Pay attention. If you think that we have more than a moderate understanding of how plants use light, you're not qualified to advise anyone. If you want to spend a lot of money to play with new technology, by all means, please do. Your money will help fund research to make LEDs both cheaper and more effective. When they get cheaper and better, I'll be very happy to buy them. The first color TVs were crappy and very expensive. "Early adopters" paid for the research that made them better and cheaper. LEDs are just not ready for mass consumption yet. When you can buy a true 1000 watt LED with a much better spectrum for 2-300 bucks in five years (or less), you'll regret that you spent $2000 to get 200 or less true watts in a poorer spectrum. I'm happy to see you get a bad deal so I can get a better one. I just don't think it's right to encourage newbies to waste their money.

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The only reasons why HPS are so cheap is that they are street lights, (remember supply and demand^?) I am sorry but I cannot see LEDs going as cheap as HPS ever (if thats what you are waiting for, you will always wait...), the HPS are too commonly use in many many applications ,... in the future you will still have to pay the big bucks for LEDs, dont matter how many they sell, they will never come as cheap as HPS for quality unit. I once had bmw 325is 1987, the greatest car I have ever had, and I see them around still and man they are great to this day. If you buy a quality unit today (they have gotten to that point with LEDs, they deliver) you will most likely be using it in some corner of you room 5-8 years down the road.

Thats how I see it.

I had an e36 m3 96 oh how I miss it.....

Haha you know our led grown herb is better because our shit gets you soo high that we switch the topics from led vs hid too BMW being the shit haha
i too miss my e36

Fuck this thread its pointless to argue with these people. In due time they too will switch too LEDs and in due time they will be smoking some of the dankest led grown herb and join our conversation on BMWs

squarefodder said:

Self righteous? Please It's obvious you've not grow with led. But yet you want to tell everyone that hid is hands down better? C Mon bro. Yes its expensive, that doesn't make it better or worse brotha. Again its another way to grow. So in your mind led is Crap because it costs more money? Show me where a quality 1000w hid crushes a quality 1000w of led. This whole thread is ridiculous. Obviously there are folks out there who are sticking to hid only and folks who are sticking to led only. I use both!! And suggest new growers do the same.

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More expensive does make it worse, stating otherwise is silly. I didn't say they were crap, I said they were not cost effective. They used to be crap, but they have improved. They're putting broad spectrum "white" LEDs in their arrays now because they've discovered the plants need more than just red and blue. You appear to agree as you're using both types. Am I wrong? A quality 1000w LED may perform comparable to a HID, but the cost is astronomical, and you won't save a dime on electricity. 1000 watts cost the same no matter what kind of light it's feeding. When the costs come down, and they will, I'll certainly buy some. The reduction of heat output alone is a great incentive. For now, my set up has the heat issue under control. The equipment is already bought and paid for, so the higher temps are not a factor. If I was just starting a set up, then not buying the fans, duct work, and stealthy vent system would be a big plus. If you were less defensive about your lights, you would probably be agreeing with me.

squarefodder said:

Dude phone are computers nowadays. Ipads tablets are all computers. Last I checked 5 plus years ago computers were bulky laptops and desktops. Not dual core phones and tablets. Phones are computers first bro

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Yes, phones are small, somewhat limited computers now. They added that technology to them. The first ones were clunky and expensive. The early adopters paid for the development that made them cheaper and better. Your statement reinforces mine.

A 1000w LED panel doesn't output less heat than a 1000w HPS. Both have radiant efficiency of around 35-45% depending on quality: for every 100 watts consumed, around 40 watts are emitted light and 60 watts are only heat. Even if the efficiency was better, it would not produce less heat because even visible light is heat in some sort (all photons carry energy).
The real difference towards heat is that LED chips emits only light on one side (down) and only heat on the other (up). That means that the heat does not necessarily end up near the plants. But most commercial LED panels have poor thermal management where the fan blows the heat down so basically there is no much difference with HPS at all.

But! You can have similar performance as HPS for 50-60% of the power. That means that a good 500w LED panel will do as fine as a 1000w HPS. That's where you save heat; as a 500w unit will produce half less heat as the 1000w bulb.

Here's a little tidbit you might be interested in. There are LED street lights on the market now. 100 true watts with just one giant emitter for $115 (not including shipping) from China. They come in 2700K and 6500K. I'm waiting for a spectra chart from the manufacture right now. 9,800 lumen. There's some one selling 50 watters on Ebay for $216.59 + shipping as I type. The lumen output is grossly exaggerated (39,000 lumen=bullshit).

patrikantonius said:

A 1000w LED panel doesn't output less heat than a 1000w HPS. Both have radiant efficiency of around 35-45% depending on quality: for every 100 watts consumed, around 40 watts are emitted light and 60 watts are only heat. Even if the efficiency was better, it would not produce less heat because even visible light is heat in some sort (all photons carry energy). The real difference towards heat is that LED chips emits only light on one side (down) and only heat on the other (up). That means that the heat does not necessarily end up near the plants. But most commercial LED panels have poor thermal management where the fan blows the heat down so basically there is no much difference with HPS at all. But! You can have similar performance as HPS for 50-60% of the power. That means that a good 500w LED panel will do as fine as a 1000w HPS. That's where you save heat; as a 500w unit will produce half less heat as the 1000w bulb.

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I'm wondering how one would vent that heat in a sealed co2 augmented grow chamber. Perhaps the heat buildup is low enough that venting is not required? From what I've seen, one would need closer to 80% the power to equal HID performance. Unfortunately, seldom do growers list the true wattage their LEDs consume, just the maximum draw possible. Nobody uses the maximum draw or they get drastically reduced life spans. This makes it difficult to compare the different lights.

It really depends on the quality of the chips used. Entry level panels like china made UFO's will have a very hard time achieving yields of 0.5g/W (consumed watts of course). Good planels (there are a lot on the market now) can do 1g/W with no problem. With HID only a very experienced grower can grow more than 1g/W. The only downside is that it is somehow difficult to tell the good panels from the bad ones, because manufacturers say a lot of bullshit. Knowing the truth about the real performance of a panel can be very difficult. With HID there is less hassle, pretty much all HPS lights are similar, and you won't do a big mistake if you take one HPS bulb instead of the other.

If you look up ledgrow.eu, the man has made experiments with LEDs for 5 years and achieved to yield 97 grams off a SOG under 60 watts worth of LEDs. You cannot get 1.5 g/W with HID unless using very advanced techniques such as rotating garden and all that shit. One other example is digimidgi who yielded 170 grs off a 140w panel from plantphotonics.

^^^^^^^^Since he's selling these panels, I am skeptical of his claims. I don't think an inexperienced grower can get 1g/W with LEDs either.

On a side note, time must be considered when trying to apply a metric to any efficiency of growing. Instead of g/W, perhaps g/Kw/Hr? I could veg for 6 months with a 250w HID and get a result comparable to a 1000w vegged for 6 weeks and have a much higher g/W number.

Why are there still so many LED haters? You'd think that the bad rep from years ago would be gone by now. Hell, people still bring up irishboy's grows which are very outdated, I think the videos say 2010? Things have gotten much better since then, it just takes a little money and I guarantee anyone can grow great plants. I think another benefit of LED's that is seldom brought up is you save on water. All the IR heat from HIDS tends to evaporate water much quicker. I'm probably using 1/2 the water I used when I was using a 600w HPS. Just something else to think about.

Red1966 said:

On a side note, time must be considered when trying to apply a metric to any efficiency of growing. Instead of g/W, perhaps g/Kw/Hr? I could veg for 6 months with a 250w HID and get a result comparable to a 1000w vegged for 6 weeks and have a much higher g/W number.

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Hans wasn't selling anything when he was conducting his experiments. I doubt he made these up during all these years just to sell his small panels to a couple of fellas 5 years later. And if you go to the website you'll see that he is specifically counting in grams per kilowatt hour.

Never saw anything but his current web site. Only took a cursory look. When I have time tomorrow, I'll take a longer look. How long has his site been up? Nice to know at least one person agreed with me about a more accurate metric!

Checked out his web site in more depth. He's out of stock. The panels he sells look professional, but seem a little high priced. I would need 8 to cover my grow area, maybe more! The site is informative.