Which is better hid or led?

LEDmania

Active Member
I was just putting fire to the conversation ;) Personally I was too fkin paranoid about burning down my house with 2 HIDs in such a small room... So I was hoping that LEDs would cut it because I wasnt too keen on going back with the HIDs , well it turns out that was the best move for me ... more buds, more peace of mind

I dont need to hear HIDs are safe when they are set properly ... I was paranoid, nothing you can do about it
Very sorry to hear your unlucky experience with HID lamps.
I always keep a large jar of CO2 in my tent for larger duds, in this way I also never allow the fire becomes uncontrollable.:weed:
 

Endur0xX

Well-Known Member
there was never a fire though, just the fear of it (this current grow I was home only in the weekend and at some point I was gone 2 weeks...)
 

patrikantonius

Active Member
There's something nobody mentioned. Magnetic ballasts for HID lamps are between 80 and 85% efficient, that means that a 400W HID will in fact draw up to 480W on the socket. If you achieve to yield 400gr off a 400W HPS, that's in fact more like 0.8gpw than 1gpw.
 

Chirulazo

Well-Known Member
There's something nobody mentioned. Magnetic ballasts for HID lamps are between 80 and 85% efficient, that means that a 400W HID will in fact draw up to 480W on the socket. If you achieve to yield 400gr off a 400W HPS, that's in fact more like 0.8gpw than 1gpw.
Yes good you mention it. I think that to be fair. You can Judge the G/W two ways. One, considering only light power, in which case, LED panels should only consider real LED power usage, excluding fans and power supplies, and an HID lamp should be considered as the bulb wattage. If you count a LED panel consumption, including fans and power supplies and stuff, then to be fair, HID lamps should also be considered with the 15 - 20% extra energy due to the ballast.

Of course, the most real one, would be considering the total power consumption, that is, including fans, power supplies, ballast, everything. Finaly, if we are going G/W, we have to consider total power consumption.

This is again another point LED has a better efficiency, since the power supplies and fans, represent a loss of about 10%.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Hey man, yopu CAN´T judge led technology based on crappy panels. All of those, are cheap chinese panels. Almost all have Epistar or Bridgelux leds... those won't do the magic. To see real improvment, you HAVE to go for high quality leds, such as CREE, Osram, Lumileds, Seoul, etc. The only panels that are using these high quality leds, are: DIY Hans panels using CREE XP-E(the link i posted) Plantphotonic panels using CREE XP-E and Lumileds, EVO leds from spain, using in the past CREE XP-E now switching to Osram SSL80, Apache panels, using Osram 3W Leds (they dony specify model), Procyon, uding CREE XP-E.... and there maybe a few more out there.... but those are the very few. Almost ALL panels, re made with cheap lower efficiency leds... even the most expensive ones... those are only scams, and that's why, people like you and many others, consider this tech to be a crap! because it is the few, that have dig into led tech enough to know that the key to success in led, its not in the panel brand, it's in the leds, the diodes brand and model, where you'll see the difference. I have a friend, who made his own DIY panel, using lumileds, with 60W he pulled a 1,2 g/w yield. That was seen with my own eyes. Why is almost noone using high quality leds? because those are 3 times the price, and most of the led companies, are only seeking profit, not performance. So they just go for the cheapest and pull heavy marketing, and many fall for it, and then they get frustrated and come here and say the tech is crap. That is the way LEDs have wom their bad reputation. o yes, they do 70W HPS... and you could doubt his results... you can also doubt mine... but i'm seeing my buds getting dry in front of me. I said i was an average user,not a complete novice one. I've had plants before. I know more or less how it looks 50 grams when they are wet. And i'm telling you, there's clearly more than 50 grams here, i can be sure of that!. Besides.. that "fluffy" buds thing... in the past... these buds are as dense as a rock. you can take my word, or you can doubt it, it is your choice... reality, is that i really pulled this out of this plant using a 56W led panel. And how long did it take for me to have this plant? well.. i have a veg room, so i just picked 7 clones, put them in a 25Lt container and in 56 - 57 days of flowering, i'm harvesting this. If you wish, so you can convince yourself i'm not bullshiting here, i can show you pics of the buds, so you can see results that can maybe make you belive in this technology. You say you have never seen any good caming out of leds...maybe it would be nice if for one time, you see something worth it.
I'm open to objective data on LEDs. It's just that I've seen very little of it. What I have seen in controlled, side-by-side grows using the same plants, same nutes, same power, and same time table grows by experienced growers show LEDs producing inferior results. There is so much obvious hype out there that I am reluctant to invest a huge sum of money in unproven technology when there is much cheaper technology with a long and proven track record. I have researched some of the LEDs on the market to find their sources in China and have found there to be a 400% markup on their prices. I have also found several seemingly knowledgeable persons who state that one needs 75% of actual wattage LED compared to HID to achieve equal results. The power savings don't justify the huge outlay for the LEDs. At least you posted some helpful information on appropriate manufacturers. I had thought that Epistar and Bridgelux were supposed to be quality brands. Now you're saying they're crap? My understanding was that the biggest factor was in the heat management. Along with proper spectrum. There is conflicting data on that. I find that some of the LED growers seem a little too emotionally invested in their expensive lights to be objective. And of course there's the sellers with a financial stake in promoting the lights. My point is, until there is better info available, why take a risk? As I said before, HID is proven technology.
 

Wordz

Well-Known Member
still waiting for a dried led bud pic.. I would figure there would be tons of them since led makes such bad ass buds you just gotta show it off.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
There's something nobody mentioned. Magnetic ballasts for HID lamps are between 80 and 85% efficient, that means that a 400W HID will in fact draw up to 480W on the socket. If you achieve to yield 400gr off a 400W HPS, that's in fact more like 0.8gpw than 1gpw.


Yessir. My 1000 watt actually pulled 1068 and its digital quantum ballast. I used to have 2 400 watt magnetics and a 1000 watt magnetic. One 400 pulled 486 watts and the other 456 watts The magnetic 1000 pulled 1248 watts.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
All the digital ballast makers claim their ballasts are 99% efficient. So a 400w lamp should draw 404 watts, a 600w lamp should draw 606 watts, a 1000w lamp should draw 1010 watts. They really draw 10% more, not 1%. Seems everybody exaggerates.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Depends on the amps. Each ballast has a different amp rating. My quantum is 8.4 amps and one of.my friends has same ballast and his is 8.9 amps. old 1000 watt magnetic was 10.4 amps
 

Chirulazo

Well-Known Member
I'm open to objective data on LEDs. It's just that I've seen very little of it. What I have seen in controlled, side-by-side grows using the same plants, same nutes, same power, and same time table grows by experienced growers show LEDs producing inferior results. There is so much obvious hype out there that I am reluctant to invest a huge sum of money in unproven technology when there is much cheaper technology with a long and proven track record. I have researched some of the LEDs on the market to find their sources in China and have found there to be a 400% markup on their prices. I have also found several seemingly knowledgeable persons who state that one needs 75% of actual wattage LED compared to HID to achieve equal results. The power savings don't justify the huge outlay for the LEDs. At least you posted some helpful information on appropriate manufacturers. I had thought that Epistar and Bridgelux were supposed to be quality brands. Now you're saying they're crap? My understanding was that the biggest factor was in the heat management. Along with proper spectrum. There is conflicting data on that. I find that some of the LED growers seem a little too emotionally invested in their expensive lights to be objective. And of course there's the sellers with a financial stake in promoting the lights. My point is, until there is better info available, why take a risk? As I said before, HID is proven technology.
Hey man. I maybe got a bit too excited when saying bridgelux and epistar where crap. Thay are good quality leds, only those have not yet met the higher efficiency other brands are showing. So let's just say, they are good, but there are better ones out there available. It is true what you are saying. One of most important things when talking leds, is thermal management. The more a diode gets heated, the more it loses it's efficiency. The more you can properly disipate the heat, the more you could squeeze out of that led without loosing neither efficiency nor lifespan.
Best quality leds, have a better thermal management. There is a spec about leds that is important. Their Junction Temp. This tell us their individual thermal efficiency. You can control the heat from the moment it "leaves" the diode from the back part on it's base. bBut you can,t control the inner heat, that inner heat, is measured by the Junction Temp. This datum, tells us how is thermal management inside the diode. Good quality diodes, have a Junction temp in between 6°C/W and 8°C/W. This means, that for each watt of consumption, inner temp inside the diode, will be between 6° and 8° more than the temp in the base of the led. When you have a lower quality led, this junction temp is bigger, and thermal effciency of the diode drops. This, among other things, is one of the facts that makes high quality leds give out a more powerful luminuos flux at same power consumption.

That 75% energy usage you tell, could it be like a base standard relation, when you are starting, and maybe when are things yet to be improved. But, if using the right spectrum, the right leds, having the optimal thermal management, the optimal layout, the optimal distribution and when everything is set up properly, i would say that leds are in the ratio of 2:1 comparing to HPS. This means, you could be getting same production using half the electrical power, or you could get twice your yield, using same amount of power. Of course, as i told, this will only come to reality when you have ALL the factors in optimal condition. Let's say a 0,6 g/W for HID, a 1,2 G/W for high quality well used leds as a standard. Of course, HID can be sqeezed more, but yet, those leds could also be more porductive bringing even 1,5 G/W... so as a standard figure i think, when you have propper set up, you can do 2:1 comparing to an HID lamp.

As you say, there is much risk in going for leds, and you could indeed end up with a panel not capable of doing it (outperform HID).... it is risky... nevertheless, it seems that if you do your reasearch and make a good pick, there is already panels available than will at least, boost up your yield between 50 and 70%, with expectations of even getting to a 100% boost. Or if you preffer savings, yo could be saving even half the electrical power.
You could also pick the right diodes and make your own DIY panel, and deliver this results also. I've seen homemade DIY set ups, delivering 1,2 G/W in their preliminary testings only. Yet to be improved.

And i try to be objective man... i am talking now, having results on my hand, not just speculation. I can tell that theres deffinetly a boost in production when using high quality leds, no doubt about it. The thing is to have an idea of how much this boost is. I'm telling you, 56W of leds, are giving me same amount of herb i've seen others pulling from a 150W HPS. Of course, 150W could be taken further under more experienced growers. But for the sake of statistics, lets then say, the 2:1 rule applies to these one, having my 56W results, comparable to the performance of an hypothetical 112W HID. So the way i see it, you have 2 ways of puting value to this better performance. You could think of it, as i'm getting same production of an 112W HID using 56W of power. Or you could think of it as if i was getting double the amountof herb, if using same amount of power in HID. Either way, Leds are already more efficient than HID lamps by quite a margin. It's just that as already said.. it is all about choosing the right combination, the propper layout and everything should be treated correctly. Ther are some things that have to be changed when switching to led. waterings jobs and nutrition schedule is different, since the leds wont evaporate wel the humidity on the soil. Also, the low heat, con affect rootdevelopment if the colds are tough.. So that's some things to consider among others.

Are they expenssive?, oh yes. Are they worth their money? i belive that when you go for the right ones, yes they are. In 5 years, you would be saving like 250 dollars only by not having to replace Bulbs. Add to that the lower electrical bill, or the higher yield you could be getting, and it is my opinion, that in the long term, they end up paying for themselves.

Cheers man. Nice discussion. I also try to keep it objective, since the idea here, is to get a clear vision of what this is all about... that's why, to really know what's going on here.... i think you always have to go for the scientific backup. You can't say "this is better than yours because of years of R & D that had lead us into developing a more efficient light"... that is pure bla bla.... if you are going to state you have a better efficient light, you have to give raw data of why! are yours better than others. I belive, spectrum changes, can do a bit, but mostly, thermal management and diodes native efficiency are the most important facts that will pull a higher luminous flux from them. It isn't an easy subject... but i belive, with no doubts, they are the future. Imagine, they are already outperforming HID and they haven't yet come to full development, much left to do in that technology. HID's have already set their roof. It is only a matter of time. It took a while for people to change from cassetes to CD's... but eventually, when more good panels are delivered from manufacturers, and more people continue doing their own DIY prototypes... hopefully the bad reputation some scammers are giving to this tech, will come down, and real attributes of this technology will rise.

Cheers.
 

aldo681

Active Member
Yessir. My 1000 watt actually pulled 1068 and its digital quantum ballast. I used to have 2 400 watt magnetics and a 1000 watt magnetic. One 400 pulled 486 watts and the other 456 watts The magnetic 1000 pulled 1248 watts.
Now that's what I'm talkin about. Good job bro!
Finally someone can back up my claims regarding yields for HID.
Peoples stop wasting your time, effort and of course your hard earned money
on LEDs. No one. I mean no one in this forum has the proven anything not even some bud porn that
LEDs are much much much better than HID.
Sorry for the LED fans out there but I need hard evidence to prove that LEDs work.
There are way too many grow journals out there that are full of crap. I'm certainly sure these individuals work for these
dodgy ass LED companies.
Let's face it. All LEDs come from the same country and of course those crazy ass prices they slap on the units. Bloody ridiculous!
 

Chirulazo

Well-Known Member
Now that's what I'm talkin about. Good job bro!
Finally someone can back up my claims regarding yields for HID.
Peoples stop wasting your time, effort and of course your hard earned money
on LEDs. No one. I mean no one in this forum has the proven anything not even some bud porn that
LEDs are much much much better than HID.
Sorry for the LED fans out there but I need hard evidence to prove that LEDs work.
There are way too many grow journals out there that are full of crap. I'm certainly sure these individuals work for these
dodgy ass LED companies.
Let's face it. All LEDs come from the same country and of course those crazy ass prices they slap on the units. Bloody ridiculous!

i'm showing my results here.. what can you say about them? This is the result of 56W of led power. I've seen results under 70W HPS. They don't even get close to these i'm showing here.

And in the pictures, all the more little buds from the lower sites, are missing... those are also to consider.

This are wet by the way, in a few days i can be showing dry rsults

Also some pics from when she was flowering so you can see her nice and healthy development.

And a little observation... the post you quoted, wasn't talking about yields... he was speaking about ballast power loss.... saying the real power draw of those bulbs considering the ballast loss.

And i completely agree with you about your statement of several brands putting crazy ass prices on their units... that's why it is most important that you dig a lot into it and do a lot of research if you intend to go for leds. It isn't as simple as going for HID. Too many factors to consider. Starting from diodes brand and model, which i think it is almost the most important thing, and yet, only a few companies give this information. Most of them, concentrate in heavy markenting and a lot of bla bla.

I also leave you this thread, so you can see why it is important to chose. Not any led will do the job and there is a lot of difference among them. This is a comparisson between a high quality panel vs a Chinese one. Please, notice, the chinese panel, even having a higher power draw, delivers lower results. See for yourself:

http://www.lamarihuana.com/foro/cultivo-con-leds/93854-seguimiento-600w-led-china-vs-evoled.html

Differences are remarkable

Peace.
 

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Chirulazo

Well-Known Member
I'm a total LED fanboy, i admit it... but how couldn't i be, if i can be getting this out of only 56 Watts... and the best of it, if lifespan is as it's pormised by leds, i'm having even 10 years of this, not spending a single more penny on replacement of any kind. Just with 5 years i would be more than satisfied.. what can you say man.. really... i think that instead of arguing so much, we should all benefit from what this new tech is bringing up.

i fucking love LEDs!

Peace.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
I'm a total LED fanboy, i admit it... but how couldn't i be, if i can be getting this out of only 56 Watts... and the best of it, if lifespan is as it's pormised by leds, i'm having even 10 years of this, not spending a single more penny on replacement of any kind. Just with 5 years i would be more than satisfied.. what can you say man.. really... i think that instead of arguing so much, we should all benefit from what this new tech is bringing up. i fucking love LEDs! Peace.
That's readily apparent. Too bad you have such a small grow. A bigger one, say 4 x 4 or 4 x 8 would be easier to compare to the scale I grow in.. I see so much marketing bullshit for LEDs that I'm skeptical about all of them. The plantphotonics seem to have well engineered electronics, but looks to fall short on thermal management. Why didn't he use extruded heat sink instead of just flat plate? Its not that much more. There's not enough exposed surface area. I'm inform one needs about 20 square inch per watt, he's nowhere near that. The Lumagrows look good, but the price don't. I would need two.
 

cannabuilding

Active Member
HID and LED arguments are futile man, they are both better than each other in different scenario's.

I can only grow in a 2x3x5 space and have 600watts of LED over that space.

I can tell you this, the same strain grown under HID are no where near as potent as the same bud grown under LED, in my grow space and situation that is. The same bud grown under 1000watts of HID will be as potent as the bud grown under 600watts of LED in the available space, if one can control the environment in a 2x3x5 space with a 1000watt HPS, but thats out of the question in a small space.

Here is some real nice bag seed kush grown in a 2litre pot (measured by calipers), other 2 cola's are from a different bag seed.

HID's are still a good choice, E.g. if one lives in a very cold climate and has alot of room to grow, HPS is teh way to go, But if your in a hot climate and are limited by space, than LEDs is the way to go.

Peace to all and happy growing.
 

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hyroot

Well-Known Member
Now that's what I'm talkin about. Good job bro!
Finally someone can back up my claims regarding yields for HID.
Peoples stop wasting your time, effort and of course your hard earned money
on LEDs. No one. I mean no one in this forum has the proven anything not even some bud porn that
LEDs are much much much better than HID.
Sorry for the LED fans out there but I need hard evidence to prove that LEDs work.
There are way too many grow journals out there that are full of crap. I'm certainly sure these individuals work for these
dodgy ass LED companies.
Let's face it. All LEDs come from the same country and of course those crazy ass prices they slap on the units. Bloody ridiculous!

What do you mean? I never said anything about yield. I was talking about wattage and ampage...

Im an led fan. Ive seen first hand how spectrum triumphs over watts. again my t5 with aquarium bulbs at 432 watts. Produced bigger and frostier buds with no stretching , more so than a 1000 watt quantum with hortilux. Check my journal. Pure indicas. Im just about to start my first led grow. My homie who built his own first turned me onto led. He grew gigantic platinum kush buds. He is also ballin. He own a huge bike shop. Harleys n shit. So he can afford a shitload of leds. So I went with par t5. Loved it but after replacing so many bulbs on the hunt for the perfect spectrum and searching for the elusive 660 bulbs. Those only have so much 660nm intensity and they are linear. I decided to go with led for more penetration (single point of light). More 660 nm intensity too. Which means bigger buds. I will still supplement with t5 for infrared, uv-a, and uv-b. I still am using my par t5.
 
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