The Charge: Desertion

Doer

Doer

Well-Known Member
“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm” ---Richard Grenier

What? Not Orwell?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Doer said:
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

George Orwell


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgeorwe390715.html#QvWBm22PqBmzBO3C.99

Who is,


I seriously doubt that. Richard Grenier wasn't even born until 1933.
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In which book or essay did he write it? I have read most of his essays and the quote is diametrically opposed to his views. Aside from a critique of pacifism I can't imagine a context wherein he would convey something like this.

In other words, I call bullshit.
 
GreatwhiteNorth

GreatwhiteNorth

Global Moderator
Staff member
londonfog

londonfog

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
In which book or essay did he write it? I have read most of his essays and the quote is diametrically opposed to his views. Aside from a critique of pacifism I can't imagine a context wherein he would convey something like this.

In other words, I call bullshit.
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google said this
  • "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us."
    • Alternative: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    • Alternative: "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
    • Commonly misattributed to George Orwell without citation. Sometimes also misattributed to Winston Churchill without citation.
    • Actual source: Quote Investigator found the earliest known appearance in a 1993 Washington Times essay by Richard Grenier: "As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." The absence of quotation marks indicates that Grenier was using his own words to convey his interpretation of Orwell's opinion, as seen in citations below.
    • In his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", Orwell wrote that pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious.""Notes on Nationalism"
    • In an essay on Rudyard Kipling, Orwell cited Kipling's phrase "making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep" (Kipling, Tommy), and further noted that Kipling's "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can be highly civilized only while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them." (1942)
    • Similar phrase: "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it." – Aaron Sorkin (A Few Good Men)
 
doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
I'd like to share a few snippets of a speech about two young Marines. It was given by Lt. Gen. John Kelly, USMC, last month — only four days after his son was killed in Afghanistan. He's talking about two Marines on guard duty in April 2008 in Ramadi as a suicide bomber in a truck bore down on them:
Two Marines, Corporal Jonathan Yale and Lance Corporal Jordan Haerter, 22 and 20 years old, respectively, assumed the watch together at the entrance gate of an outpost that contained a makeshift barracks housing 50 Marines and 100 Iraqi police.
We saw the last six seconds of their lives on the security camera:
... the truck came into their view at the far end of the alley; 60-70 yards away. Exactly no time to talk it over or call the sergeant to ask what they should do. Only enough time to take half an instant and think about what the sergeant told them only a few minutes before, "Let no unauthorized personnel or vehicles pass." The two Marines had five seconds to live.
It took maybe another two seconds for them to present their weapons, take aim and open up. By this time the truck was halfway through the barriers and gaining speed. The recording shows a number of Iraqi police, some of whom had fired their AKs, now scattering — some running right past the Marines. They had three seconds to live.
For two seconds more, the recording shows the Marines firing non-stop; the truck's windshield exploding into shards of glass as their rounds take it apart and tore into the son-of-a-bitch who is trying to get past them to kill their brothers — American and Iraqi — bedded down in the barracks, totally unaware that their lives depended entirely on two Marines standing their ground. If they had been aware, they would have known they were safe because two Marines stood between them and a crazed suicide bomber.
The recording shows the truck careening to a stop immediately in front of the two Marines. In all the instantaneous violence, Yale and Haerter never hesitated. By the recording, they never stepped back. They never even started to step aside. They never even shifted their weight. With their feet spread shoulder-width apart, they leaned into the danger, firing as fast as they could work their weapons. They had only one second left to live.
The truck stopped just short of the two and detonated, killing them both catastrophically. Twenty-four brick houses were damaged or destroyed. A mosque 100 yards away collapsed. The truck's engine came to rest two hundred yards away knocking most of a house down before it stopped.
The truck explodes. The camera goes blank. Two young men go to their God. Six seconds. Not enough time to think about their families, their country, their flag, about their lives or their deaths, but more than enough time for two very brave young men to do their duty into eternity. That is the kind of people who are on watch all over the world tonight — for you.
These two young Marines lived life by "Honor — Courage — Commitment" right to the last second. It's not how they died, but rather how they lived. Let's raise a glass to Yale and Haerter, and to their fellow Marines, soldiers, sailors and airmen standing watch for you this Christmas season and Christmas seasons to come
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
We would all be safer had there been no war. Of course that would not be profitable for Haliburton. Those kids didn't die for me. They died for the oligarchy.
 
desert dude

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
What if the person issuing you orders tells you to kill women and children? Should you desert or follow orders and shoot them?
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Actually, the military teaches classes on what to do, and not do with illegal orders. You don't follow them. Admittedly, this puts a heavy burden on enlisted guys, "follow orders and commit what you think are crimes, or refuse and potentially commit a crime by refusing to follow orders?". Never the less, they teach you to refuse such orders.

Killing women and children is a no-brainer, that is a crime and should be refused. Of course, you need to provide some context, i.e. what are the women and children doing at the time, approaching you with a bomb-laden suicide vest?
 
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